Here’s a recording of the talk I gave a couple of weeks ago in Harrogate, to a general audience who were not necessarily familiar with the concept of limerence.
It’s a rehearsal, so not as slick or lively as the actual talk (and no Q&A of course).
I thought it might be interesting to see for those who couldn’t make it in person but are curious.
Enjoy!
Dr. Tom:
You are plenty slick and lively for me.
Well done, Dr L! I would have loved to be there in person. Thank you for sharing what I missed. My favorite part was when you shared your personal experience with limerence.
Thank you, Dr L, for another great video and for bring this hugely important issue the serious study and recovery strategies that it deserves.
I have been reading this blog for three months now, and have taken your Emergency Deprogramming Course as well.
My struggle is with how to handle no contact/low contact in a workplace situation. Your advice, as I understand it, is to practice as low contact as possible in a manner consistent with getting the job done and maintaining civility.
The section of the video around 13:30, dealing with no contact and other tactics for recovery, is especially applicable to me right now.
My situation, as I have described in the comments section of the no contact checklist, as well as other discussions, is that my LO, whom I had known as a summer intern for the previous two summers, unexpectedly started this summer as a full time employee. Defying the laws of probability, she has the same office — a medium sized room — as the group that I am affiliated with. Luckily for me, I have been given the privilege of working mostly remotely, coming to the office every few weeks, so I should be able to practice very low contact.
Coming into this summer, before the LO’s return, I had substantially recovered from this LE, and was prepared to go permanently NC and accept the uncertainty that that would entail. However, when I ran into the LO for the first time in over a year earlier this summer, she showed an enthusiasm that instantly broke down my resolve, and I had a long conversation that felt more like an especially promising first date, and it was the most euphoric experience I’ve had in decades. I thought she looked ecstatic also, although I accept that maybe it’s my limerant brain drawing that conclusion. By contrast, the next couple of encounters a few weeks apart, were brief and awkward. The most recent encounter, which occurred exactly a month ago, was to pretend we didn’t see each other, although we were sitting in the same room, barely fifteen feet apart. Well, I (we?) did achieve no contact of sorts, but the lack of civility really disturbs me. I would like to somehow restore it to a low contact, civil, professional, relationship. I fully understand and accept it can never be a true friendship.
A little more context here. This is a massive age gap situation, possibly setting a record on this forum. I am a 63 yo married male commited to my wife; she is 22 yo and single (not sure if she’s partnered). All of my actions have been above board and played by the rules — no secret meetings, dates, or conversations. Prior to this summer, the only time I broke my NC resolution was nine months ago, with a brief exchange of fully platonic emails over the holidays. My executive brain has (mostly) acted properly, but my subconscious has not.
So, my question is, should I try to re-establish a civil, professional relationship with her, or is that just a sneaky way of getting back into contact? Who is the onus on, me or the LO? Being a senior person in the organization, I feel a responsibility to behave as the adult in the room, which includes both bringing the LE to its conclusion as well as to behave professionally.
Looking forward to anyone who has an opinion!
CatCyclist,
“So, my question is, should I try to re-establish a civil, professional relationship with her, or is that just a sneaky way of getting back into contact?”
Yes. Do you need to speak to her for work? She has the same office but she isn’t in your group, if I’m understanding you correctly ? If so, there’s really no reason you need to do more than say hello. I’m not entirely sure why your encounters have become awkward. Do you think she’s putting distance between you ?
” Who is the onus on, me or the LO? Being a senior person in the organization, I feel a responsibility to behave as the adult in the room, which includes both bringing the LE to its conclusion as well as to behave professionally.”
It’s on you. This is a young woman just out of college, right ? Do you remember what you were like, emotionally and professionally, just out of college ? 🙂
You can be pleasant and civil but you don’t really need to “engage.” If that makes sense. And it doesn’t sound like she’s doing anything to encourage you do to more.
Marcia,
Thanks for your thoughtful and empathetic response.
To answer your questions: 1) We work in the same large group, but have no need to directly interact with each other right now, but there is enough fluidity in roles, that it could change in the future. 2) I have many theories as to why it’s awkward between us, but my best sense is that both of us independently realized that we had become too close emotionally (we did not have inappropriate disclosures or conversations, but did talk about our dreams and aspirations, etc.), and decided to dial it down a notch. The second theory is now that she is here permanently, she wants a new start with her peers; the initial bond with me may have been spurred by our shared ethnicity and possibly her sense of isolation from the majority group. 3) I do believe she’s trying to put distance between us, but so was l, at least my executive brain was, at the same time as my more primitive brain resented HER distancing! But too much speculation devolves into rumination, which we know fuels limerance. So my intention is to not speculate too much, just concentrate on my actions going forward, and what my long term personal and professional goals are, and align my behavior with those goals, which do not involve her. Getting to this conclusion involved a lot of grieving and soul searching.
I absolutely do remember my behavior at age 22 (I was a limerant then too, and a far less mature one), and I hope I’m past that behavior! As to being pleasant and civil, it’s emotionally hard for me to do. I’m dreading going into work on Monday, but I know I have to face it with courage.
CatCyclist,
“I absolutely do remember my behavior at age 22 (I was a limerent then too, and a far less mature one), ”
Who were you limerent for at 22? 🙂 I wasn’t limerent at 22 but I was very immature. Just didn’t have the life experience and emotional IQ not to be.
“As to being pleasant and civil, it’s emotionally hard for me to do. ”
Because you’d like to be closer friends and you resent that it seems like she doesn’t ?
Your post resonated with me in the you wrote you hadn’t felt such euphoria in decades. I’ve had a recent … Idk what to call it. Mini-limerent episode and I feel the same way. But … I’m kind of in the same place you are. I can’t be with this person. So now I’m in this weird place of … it was great to experience, but now what? Now it kind of haunts me. Have I reached my happiness threshold for my life? (I’m a bit younger than you, but not by much.) Maybe you only get so many of those moments, and the Universe is done giving me mine. Maybe that’s it for me. And was there a point to it if it’s not someone I can be with? Maybe I’m having some kind of existential crisis. 🙂
And this isn’t meant to be preachy, but how do you think your spouse would feel if she knew that? That you’ve been the happiest you were in decades … with someone else. Who’s really not a significant part of your life.
“Being a senior person in the organization, I feel a responsibility to behave as the adult in the room.”
CatCyclist
I feel like by default you should want to do this. It’s will show that you are truly the adult and possibly gain more respect from her.
The limerence pull is always going to try and draw you back because the two of you have already shared things and were closer at one time. Plus she made you feel warm and fuzzy all over. I totally get this.
My Lady Friend Co-Worker is 24 years younger than me and our falling out was due to my disclosing way more personal matters than she cared to hear about. It brought our Friendship down from almost a 10, to a 2.. And maybe a 1 now. (If that even counts.) Like you, I wanted to keep a modicum of friendship with her at some point again, since we have to work together, hoping she might welcome it. We went months without speaking. In that time there was awkward silence but plenty of staring back and forth at each other, which was very misleading.
Upon approaching her and trying to talk, she literally told me to not get too friendly again because she has a SO..
Basically respect her space and stay in my lane because my attention isn’t needed. Yet I still catch her staring at me often and it always confuses me.
Personally I believe its all about her needing validation and I refuse to oblige. I’ve tried to be stoic as I can because thinking more and more about how she spoke to me and putting me in place really nerved me. She’s young enough to be my Daughter and I’m just not going to be spoken to like that by her. This is work, not High School and I can’t stand stupid girl drama. I choose to be the grown up. No matter what Dad-vibe that gives off.
On the Plus side though, I feel like I win some brownie points back because I am respecting her space. But the lack of my attention aggravates her. She’s often been the type to say one thing and mean it another way. Historically I think she’s used to Dudes always trying to come back around and get in her orbit again. Especially guys she knows who are really good to her. Like I was. I admit she doesn’t outright hate me, but she sure doesn’t like me very much either. If she does, she got a really jacked up way of showing it.
Just go in and keep telling yourself to be civil. Put your emotions aside and be that adult. You’ll thank yourself in the long run. You can do this. I believe in you..
Keep us updated..
MJ,
Thank you, your encouragement means so much to me.
One thing I found interesting is that your suggestions for me are quite different from how you handled your own LO. Is this partly from “lessons learned”? I guess there are many differences in our situations (e.g., you are not currently attached; whereas I am; our LOs may have differences in personality/behavior, etc.) that may warrant subtle differences in responses.
Your statement “Especially guys she knows who are really good to her” struck me. Is it possible that you are too good to her, more than she merits, especially how she has treated you recently? If she treated you much better in the past, that doesn’t matter; the past is past; the present is here now. No orbiting, just civility. That applies to both of us.
We can move forward together.
Hi CatCyclist, I think Marcia said this so I’ll just echo her thoughts in a variation below. I find changing the perspective always helpful, i.e. seeing things from another perspective, in getting out of a mental rut. As I heard it, she’s a young intern in a new stressful environment. In that situation, I and I think she would reach out to any friendly face in the crowd if only to catch her breath, stay afloat, and move on. I’ve learned as the new person in a new environment to not be disingenuous in these types of early connections. At the same time, I’ve also learned to be the friendly face (or try to be) to someone who is looking for a hand to grasp knowing what it is and not expect more. For me, such social interactions, especially with women, got better once I saw things in the social context that they are (like small talk) rather than the connections that I wanted them to be. If the friendship connections are real, let them naturally progress. Most of my professional, work like interactions in an office were on the order of, “Hey you, how you doing (person whose name I don’t know)? 😄
Hamlet,
You make a good point about workplace friendships and how it is to be the new person.
Cat Cyclist … another thing to think about … how many different jobs you’ve had and how many of those former co-workers you kept in contact with once you left the job. Probably not too many. It does put things in perspective.
Marcia,
You make an excellent point; there have been only a handful of old work/school friends that I’ve kept in touch with; many with a long (sometimes decades) lapse in between, and mostly they were lengthy, solid, deep friendships; the LO hardly qualifies on those fronts. She did, however, have a far greater emotional impact on me, possibly rivaling the LO I had at age 22. I’ve made fleeting references to that four decade old experience before; I’ll fill in the details if you’re interested, but it would take me way too long to attempt this tonight!
Regarding your other point about “happiness threshold”, or a quota on happiness. It is tempting to believe that the “Universe” has a hand in this, but I believe it is we who are limiting ourselves.
Also, I draw a distinction between euphoria and happiness. The LO gives me (or more accurately, gave me) euphoria; my wife gives me true happiness, although that relationship is not perfect. Initially, the euphoric episodes lasted months, but the most recent one, two months ago, was the most intense, and lasted only an hour. By the same afternoon, I already knew that it was too good to be true, an illusion, and my downward spiral had started. After a few false starts, it was only a few weeks ago that I truly bottomed out, and hopefully am now on the path to recovery.
One of the reasons I felt so much shame is precisely what you said, “how would your spouse feel” — I know it would devastate her, and is the reason I committed to ending this LE, even though it is, at this stage, entirely in my head.
CatC,
“You make an excellent point; there have been only a handful of old work/school friends that I’ve kept in touch with; many with a long (sometimes decades) lapse in between, and mostly they were lengthy, solid, deep friendships”
I’m confused. They were deep friendships but you didn’t talk for decades ? I have two people I’m still friends with from past jobs. The others faded away over time. I think a lot of it depends on if you spent time together/had contact outside of work. Those kinds of work friendships seems to have more “legs” once one of you leaves the workplace. In a lot of ways, a work friendship is situational: When the situation ends, so does the friendship. It kind of sound like that might be the case with your LO, were you to leave.
“She did, however, have a far greater emotional impact on me, possibly rivaling the LO I had at age 22. I’ve made fleeting references to that four decade old experience before; I’ll fill in the details if you’re interested, but it would take me way too long to attempt this tonight!”
Can you give the abbreviated version? 🙂 All of my LEs have been pretty powerful, with the exception of the last one. I know too much now. This site has ruined me! 🙂
“Regarding your other point about “happiness threshold”, or a quota on happiness. It is tempting to believe that the “Universe” has a hand in this, but I believe it is we who are limiting ourselves.”
What do you mean? Idk. I think there’s a finite number of, for example, “chances” that we have. If you think about it, I think there are a finite number of people you can have a serious relationship with. In my opinion, you only get a certain number of those kinds of serious relationship in a lifetime. I’m just using that as an example, but a bunch of factors have to line up for a serious relationship to happen. And it’s rare.
“Also, I draw a distinction between euphoria and happiness. The LO gives me (or more accurately, gave me) euphoria; my wife gives me true happiness”
What’s the difference? The problem is, as you have written, the euphoria is short-lived, and over time in an LE, the periods of euphoria get shorter. And then you bottom out. It always happens. But … once you’ve experienced the euphoria, a big portion of the rest of life is …. getting up, going to work. Getting up, going to work. There’s a certain conveyer belt, drudgery to it. And there might be moments of pleasantness mixed in with little peaks joy, but you know what is to feel euphoric. And in a way, it ruined you.
Hamlet,
I was vaguely trending in the same direction as you describe, but you stated it very well.
Thank-you.
Take it from someone who has been in the LC game with a younger female employee for over 2 years now. Get out now if you can. You will just continue to bargain and spend emotional energy coping with and managing your LE. Full NC is the path forward.
My advice, life is short. Remove yourself from ever seeing her again.
Speedwagon,
I was commited to the full NC route before she unexpectedly showed up this summer. Short of quitting my job, I won’t be able to go full NC. And my job is a very unusual opportunity that won’t be replicated.
But I understand where you’re coming from.
Hi CatCyclist,
My LO is about your age, my LE is work-based, and I struggle to act normal around him (luckily we only met face-to-face on rare occasions but were in a lot of online contact). after 5 years, I finally managed to act normal around him this Summer.
I think I can appreciate your work context – by the sounds of it, this is the type of work where a lot of mentoring is expected from senior staff to junior ones. From what I gather, you can’t leave the job as its so niche and important to your well-being. So, you are resolved to recover and maintain civility and are wondering how to do it without making matters worse.
You got some good advice already but I would like to pick out something MJ said:
“Just go in and keep telling yourself to be civil. Put your emotions aside and be that adult. You’ll thank yourself in the long run. You can do this.”
As I understand, you only visit your work location once a month, or so? So what we are talking about is fake it til you make it. Even if your brain is screaming due to proximity to this person, you need to employ tricks to pretend that is not happening, or minimise its effect. Can you schedule a whole load of meetings, for instance, on the day you are in? A particularly distracting spreadsheet or conversation with someone else – focusing on other work friendships at break times, and having a LOT of work on your desk. The best-case is that you are so distracted that your default will be to treat LO in a friendly-yet-distracted manner.
I know that this is hard because, in limerence, our concentration and focus on anything but LO gets completely shot. But recovery does demand a death of hope (which you seem to have reached already?), with something else maximally distracting to fill in the gap left in your thoughts after ejecting LO from the front, middle and back of your mind. Anything to distract you for that one day a month when you’re in the office, is fair-game. Maybe its a particularly fascinating piece of research or complex task with lots of other people involved?
From my experience, bargaining is your biggest challenge – seeing ‘hope’ in LO’s actions, or pretending that a little bit of reverie wont do any harm. To steel your resolve you can re-take the Emergency Deprogramming Course, or, spend time strategising about your own hopes and dreams outside of LO. You seem to have a strong sense of sense of self-worth and dignity. Not letting this derail your good reputation and maintaining integrity in your own eyes, is an excellent position to be in. You may need to build on it, though, so you are putting steps in place to live your best life. In my experience, when you’re feeling good, LO retreats into the background, as (in my case) I did not need LO validation or self-medication with LO fantasy.
Hi Bewitched,
Thank you for your brilliant, insightful comments.
I’m about to embark on my odyssey, I mean, 90 minute drive to work …
I’ll remember your words and keep you abreast of new developments.
Best wishes for your journey as well.
Hello CatCyclist,
Your updates are very moving. Plenty of other people have given you bits of advice. I just wanted to add some encouragement. It sounds as though you understand the situation very well and you are behaving as you need to do to move forward and, as you say, be the grown-up in the room. Please believe that you will get through this and we’re here for you. When it’s still in early days with a lot of pain, it’s helpful not to beat yourself up too much. You’ve (we’ve) been affected by a condition that wasn’t entirely in your control. Yes, we have to do the work to cure ourselves, but we need to be kind to ourselves as we do so. Keep up the good work.
To Bewitched, Cloud, MJ, Marcia, Hamlet, Phil, and all others who have advised me,
I apologize; I have a little bit of egg on my face.
It turns out that with my tendency to catastrophise, I had considered all sorts of possible negative attitudes and responses from my LO, but had not considered the opposite. It turns out I did not have to approach LO; towards the end of the afternoon, she approached me instead and sat down next to me, and we talked, and talked, and talked, rather like a repetition of that fateful day in July. But this time, I tried very hard to keep my euphoria in check. No thought of lovebirds (a reference she had made back then about the actual birds visiting her apartment). Instead, I tried my d*mnd best to be a father figure to her, as I showed her photographs of my recent trip abroad, being careful to mention my wife in every other sentence. She praised every photograph, irrespective of its actual quality. I did not tell her that half the time during the trip, my mind was on her, not my wife. As she left at the end of the day, she asked me if I was returning to office next week. I said, truthfully, that I’ll return in three or four weeks. But I need to reclarify to myself, return to what?
I don’t know if this matters, but this LO is a multi-savant, a polymath, but a delightfully sweet one. I have wondered many times if she has Asperger’s. I find her awkwardness so endearing; it makes us kindred spirits. I feel protective of her; but is it a fatherly protectiveness?
To CatCyclist:
I don’t know, but I think that protectiveness and limerence go hand in hand. Her vulnerability is part of her appeal for you.
She probably takes it as fatherly. Especially since you kept mentioning your wife. 🙂 Good for you for doing that, BTW. Limerent tendency is to conveniently “forget” the spouse, lol.
CatCyclist,
“It turns out that with my tendency to catastrophise, I had considered all sorts of possible negative attitudes and responses from my LO, but had not considered the opposite”
This tendency is very typical of my experience of LE and many others’ that I’ve read here. The rumination level gives us a lot of time and space to catastrophise.
The trick is (if you have successfully kept the euphoria under control) to bottle this moment from yesterday. To use it as a frame of reference to guide your brain in future – nothing is going to suddenly change, so no need to catastrophise! It’s tricky to bring the thoughts under control – easier said that done – but she won’t suddenly dislike you if you just continue in the same way.
But to keep the one side in control, you also need to keep the other in control – that is reduce how euphoric the good moments feel. Because after euphoria comes catastrophising; after ‘joy’ comes pain; after highs come lows – rinse and repeat.
To get it on a steadier level is the trick. It could be a hard thing to hear, but she’s not giving all this stuff nearly as much thought as you are. And if you’ve thought before that you both know you got too close, there might be stuff she does in future where she’s more distant, for the sake of ‘impression management’ at work. It won’t mean she suddenly hates you. I’ve experienced all this as my work based LE wound down in the past few months.
Try and just act the ‘wise professional’ in these situations at work like others here have advised you.
“I did not tell her that half the time during the trip, my mind was on her”
Wise move! 🙂
Good thing the two of you are talking. At least getting some things out in the open. LaR could not be more correct about the highs becoming lows. In my case, it sometimes felt like the roller coaster coming off the rails. It was God-awful.. And yes you probably are putting way more into this than she is. When this hits you, it hurts. Trust me.
I also wanted to clarify something from my last post..
My Lady Friend (LF as I often refer) is not my actual LO. She is someone I met coming out my LE.
I have often maintained that I was never truly limerent over LF because she never affected me as emotionally as LO did because with LF, there has usually been less uncertainty. Which is a big factor that can drive limerence. I post about her because originally my hope was she would be a person that would help me live purposefully. What ends up happening really turned out to be quite the opposite.
My LE was a pointless event because I never actually met my LO, who also was/is a co-worker. I posted extensively about her here a few years ago. Ironically she is the same age as LF (they are both 30).
While I don’t consider myself in the emotional condition I was in during my LE, I long for connection and am often frustrated by the dating market nowadays. It is nothing like it was 20 years ago. Which is why I will tell anyone to cherish their SO. I didn’t and that is all on me. I am divorced but not because of limerence. My divorce happened way before the limerence meteorite ever hit me.
Catcyclist,
A few thoughts on your latest interaction.
My first thought when reading this, was ‘Oh no! It’s an “I’m totally over this, let’s get coffee!” moment.’ There is that danger, so watch out.
Another thing I do to make sense of these kinds of interactions are to compare them with my interactions with normal friends and colleagues I’m not limerent for. Sometimes we’ll chat, sometimes not, depending on what else is happening, and our amount of interaction doesn’t signify anything. I don’t even think about it. It’s only the strange thing called limerence that causes our brain to attach a huge amount of significance to each interaction, either euphoric or catastrophic. A bit like the disastrous handshake in the excellent song shared above by Limerent Emeritus – thank you for that!
And your last sentence… “this LO is a multi-savant, a polymath, but a delightfully sweet one” – I’m sure she is! But there are plenty of amazing people in the world. Unfortunately she has become a Limerent Object in your brain, so even if in real life she’s pretty incredible, she still isn’t the imaginary person in your head, who is a different person. I know it’s hard, but even writing things like that here is a form of rumination. This isn’t about her; it’s about you. You sound like a very interesting person and maybe concentrating on you will help to reduce the need for ruminating about someone else.
Keep up the good work! You will get through this!
Dear ☁️,
“My first thought when reading this, was ‘Oh no! It’s an “I’m totally over this, let’s get coffee!” moment.’ ”
… to continue the metaphor, SHE (the LO) offered the coffee, and I took a really big gulp, but didn’t ask for seconds, however much I wanted to. As for the euphoria, it is really, really hard to not experience it. But I’m not seeking more such experiences.
An important resolution I had made to myself several days before the encounter was to tell my wife afterwards of any interactions I have with LO going forward, without discussing my feelings, just the objective facts. And I held to this resolution after I returned home. My wife was curious, and even asked for her name, which I told her — so she could, in theory, Google her. I had told my wife on a few occasions throughout the past two years about the LO, and the fact that she’s an extraordinary talent and a great personality, but not my feelings towards her.
Going forwards, I intend to continue on my original path, which is to go onsite only when there’s a compelling work reason, which would typically be only once a month or so. This would NOT include the upcoming holiday parties. I also will not initiate any interactions, verbal or otherwise, other than a simple greeting if I happen to physically see her.
“I know it’s hard, but even writing things like that here is a form of rumination.” This is a powerful sentence. I have wondered about this myself, both in writing here and and in my journaling. My purpose was to show what I was thinking, even if the end result is exposing my limerant mind. So, should I pursue the alternative, hide all my limerant thoughts, and act as though I am totally recovered, even though I know I am not? A rhetorical sentence, mostly.
“You sound like a very interesting person and maybe concentrating on you will help to reduce the need for ruminating about someone else.” Thank you for the compliment. I think you are an interesting, insightful person too, and I mean that most sincerely; I’ve really appreciated your comments from the start.
I have indeed been concentrating on myself and my important relationships; part of this effort includes therapy, which I’ve been doing for over a year now; we had discussed this in my prior posts. I’ve told her about Tennov (she was keenly interested in her) as well as this website, along with its underling philosophy.
There is one thing about the therapy that I find a little concerning, though. That has to do with idealizing the LO — the therapist seems to fully accept my description of the LO as this extraordinary person, which has the effect of encouraging hope, not curb it, whihc is the approach favored by this site. However, she was correct that my LO was unlikely to dislike me, something she might have said to lift me out of the despair I was experienced several weeks ago.
Well, I just finished my cup of tea (literally), not coffee.
Thank you so much for your thoughts.
To LaR, MJ, Norma, Serial and Bewitched,
Thanks, as always, for your wonderful insights and incredible support.
It really makes navigating this experience easier.
“So, should I pursue the alternative, hide all my limerant thoughts, and act as though I am totally recovered, even though I know I am not? A rhetorical sentence, mostly.”
If you find the answer to this question, please let me know! Some others here might also benefit from the knowledge. On the one hand, it’s good to avoid rumination. On the other, bottling up ones emotions isn’t great for ones mental health, either.
☁️,
I doubt there will ever be a definitive answer to this question, just my own circuitous path, hopefully, to recovery.
So what specific techniques have you employed to reduce rumination? Maybe you could cite some of your earlier blog posts, as well as those showing breakthroughs/setbacks along the way. I’m curious about your journey; you seem to have made so much headway.
I’ve had at least six LEs since my teenage years. The only thing that seemed to consistently aid in their ending was No Contact and time. In only one case did I take a “break glass” action that quickly resolved the LE, but that’s not an action I’d care to repeat in the current situation.
Thank you.
Hi CatCyclist!
I’ve been following this conversation. Thanks for sharing. I didn’t understand what you found concerning about the therapy experience. If you don’t mind, could you expound on what you were expecting that was different than what occurred?
CatCyclist and ☁️,
“So, should I pursue the alternative, hide all my limerant thoughts, and act as though I am totally recovered, even though I know I am not? A rhetorical sentence, mostly.”
I think it’s better if you say what’s authentically on your mind. There is enough knowledge and sensitivity here that someone will identify those thoughts for what they are – as reverie -and tell you that (as ☁️ did here). You and everyone else learns more from that, than from hiding how you’re feeling.
You’ve got to go through stages and slides forward and back to end an LE, so it’s a natural part of it. It is never a quick snap of the fingers and gone. Better to be realistic.
But also – do try to notice odd (even small) annoying or less desirable characteristics about LO. That was one of the best bits of advice a fellow LwL poster gave me. These things might be hard to find at first, but they will exist.
That isn’t aimed to turn her undeservedly into someone you dislike (in my opinion and experience anyway), but just to build a more rounded picture of her as a human, not as a pedestalled person with no flaws. Nobody has no flaws, but lim-brains turn LO into that person until we actively push against it.
Also you said something in another post about (I paraphase) trying to steer all interactions with LO into little more than a polite professional hello. I’d go for slight middle ground instead – a little but not loads more than the polite hello – because if you have no choice but to be in a work environment with her, suddenly pivoting to ‘too little’ interaction would seem to create more awkwardness and questions than keeping just a little more.
Dear Hamlet (and☁️),
Hamlet, I know you are new here, so here’s some brief background: This LE has had a two-year runup, starting when she was a summer intern (2023 and 2024), and picking up full steam this summer when she unexpectedly returned as a full time employee in a very large organization, but remarkably sharing the same room as me. However, unlike almost everyone else, I have the option to do nearly full telework, which I’m taking full advantage of, in part to minimize contact with LO. If you want to see a more detailed thread, you can see it in the “no contact checklist” back in August.
Soon after the LO had completed her internship in summer 2024, I became aware of my growing obsession. I then started therapy with the twin goals of getting over my obsession and improving my marriage. While my marriage was good in its day-to-day aspects, it had been virtually sex-free for the greater part of twenty years; that is no longer the case. That has a hugely positive effect on both my wife and me.
The first several months of therapy were hugely beneficial for me. The therapist helped me get rid of the shame and aided my marriage as well, and my wife regularly notes the improvements.
Now, for my concerns with therapy. The therapist incorporates cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT), and considers herself highly research and evidence based (she is also a professor). Since I discovered this site in June, I’ve introduced her to the ideas of Dorothy Tennov (whom she had not heard of) and the kind of recovery techniques you see on this site. One of the central concepts in Dr L’s framing of limerence is “person addiction”. As you may or may not know, most mainstream psychotherapists, including CBT, claim that the person addiction model is very poorly evidenced. Therefore, many therapists tend to treat limerence differently than the approaches encouraged on this site.
So, how has this conflict manifested itself in my own therapy? First, there is the approach to hope — hope for an ultimate better relationship with the LO, maybe in the distant future. When I first started therapy last year, I was panicking, and in despair, at the thought of never seeing LO again. The strategy on this site is to get rid of any hope regarding future possibilities with LO. The therapist, by contrast, helped sustain hope, e.g., “maybe she will contact you, don’t despair”. To me, that subconsciously became “maybe there is hope after all”, and probably strengthened the limerence — the opposite of my main goal in therapy!
Another key difference between my therapist’s strategy and Dr L’s is how to approach people who cause the “glimmer” (see his blog posts on this topic). In short, Dr L encourages approaching such people with caution, which entails keeping interactions light and not emotionally laden. By contrast, the therapist, who is also a big proponent of exposure therapy, believes in confronting your fears, exposing yourself to stressful interactions and situations. She also promotes developing opposite gender friendships, even if they are with attractive people, citing her own. This has actually played out a couple of times in my own life, both before and after I started therapy, for example when I pressed on with increasingly deeper conversations with the then-intern, despite my own awareness of being nervous — feeling the “glimmer”.
So, my issue is balancing the input I get from the therapist, who in many ways is the best I’ve ever had, with the contrasting suggestions I get on this excellent site.
Thank you for reading up to this point.
I am currently talking to 2 different, attractive Latina Women at my place of work. They are completely my “type” and I can easily see myself getting to know them so much better. What I am enjoying about these interactions is nothing is forced. Our conversations are friendly. Mainly work related, with only a touch of personal details. I’ve even asked one of them to dinner and she has accepted, although no date has been planned.
The point I’m making here is I’m not feeling an ounce glimmer with either of them and I’m finding I stress less when I am around them, trying to make something happen. When all I really have to do is just allow the conversation to flow without putting too much thought or effort into it.
This strategy seems to be helping my psyche, which historically has always been more on the side of worry and running out of things to to talk about.
Not to mention how bad I may want to be with a particular person.
Thanks CatCyclist,
That helps a lot. I had begun to notice on this blog competing ways of viewing LE and therefore of overcoming LE and your explanation clicked. That helps me navigate here. You have a plan, you’re executing it, and you’re open to adjustments. I can just encourage you to continue through the difficulties. You’ll figure it out. 👍
CatCyclist,
I’m so afraid of recognition I’m wary to share too much on here about my situation, even though I think my predicament is pretty common at my age and in my stage of life.
I’m in my late 40s and married to a wonderful husband who I love, and with two lovely children. My limerent experience started nearly five years ago. Looking back, I realise I was feeling a lot less close to my husband due to various external stressors including the pandemic. The crush was quite sudden, unwanted and unexpected, and naturally very confusing. Before this, the last time I had an unwanted crush was over twenty years ago, before my husband and I were even engaged, and it was easy to see how an attractive work colleague could distract me from a long-distance boyfriend.
My limerent object lives very nearby and has a very similar family situation; his wife is very nice and I’m friends with her too, and my husband is friends with him, and our kids are friends with each other. We are often in contact for a myriad of different reasons, including practical, professional and social. It would be impossible to avoid him completely.
A few things have helped: one has been shoring up my relationship with my husband, which is much better than it was when this whole thing started. And the other is discovering this site a few months ago. Once I read Smitten and I realised I was up against, I stopped fantasising about him deliberately, and when I find thoughts of him popping into my head, I remind myself to think of other things.
I feel as though progress has been slow and it hasn’t been a steady path, and I currently feel as though I’m on a plateau. I think that now I mainly need to concentrate on myself and “living purposefully” and am making progress in this area.
MJ,
“The point I’m making here is I’m not feeling an ounce glimmer with either of them”
But that’s the problem. No glimmer= no oomph, no juice. (I mean glimmer as strong interest; I don’t necessarily mean the spark leading to limerence.) Personally, I would read your behavior as low interest. I might talk to you but internally I’d move on.
“Personally, I would read your behavior as low interest. I might talk to you but internally I’d move on.”
Marcia
Considering my last 2 work glimmers caused me anxiety and feelings that I thought were going to be reciprocated but weren’t, I don’t find this a bad strategy at all. The last thing I want to be is stressed going into this or over-zealous for something that isn’t.
She told me herself to not be in any hurry to take her out and I think its because her interest is somewhat low level. I’m kind of in a place where I don’t think I care. I think she has an “Ex” issue she’s dealing with. I’ll not press the issue till she’s ready.
Her and LF have become somewhat chummy too lately, so God only knows what about me, they might be discussing. I hardly think I’m their main topic of discussion, but I can’t rule out my name not coming up either. Women talk. Just like us Men do..
It has been discussed at length in this forum about Men reading into Women’s friendliness as something more. When all it really is, is just that. Women being only friendly back to Men.
I feel this approach right now works for me because I’m not dwelling on or ruminating over something that isn’t. This was all I did over LO and somewhat over LF at one point. Then all I did was cry like a baby.. In the end, I have gained nothing from either of those episodes except sadness, bitterness and regret.
I’m sure you would agree that going into this with a more laid back or subdued angle is way more attractive than coming across looking desperate. Which I’m sure you find cringe.
MJ,
“I’m sure you would agree that going into this with a more laid back or subdued angle is way more attractive than coming across looking desperate. Which I’m sure you find cringe.”
There’s a big difference between showing interest and looking desperate. You approach a woman and ask her out … in a timely manner after meeting her … and if she gives you anything less than a yes, you move on. That doesn’t look desperate. It looks like boundaries and self-respect. I was watching a video the other day on YouTube. I agreed with it even though it was intended for men. It was to make your sexual interest known right away. You’re not trying to be friends; you’re not trying to be study buddies. I don’t mean you have to lunge at her immediately, but make it clear you want to date her.
So I would take a “no need to be in a rush to ask me” as a no. It’s too low of an interest to do anything more with. I’m not saying you can’t chat at work and be friendly, but I wouldn’t expend any more energy on it.
Now, the woman you went to dinner with. Do you want to be friends? If so, that’s fine, but if I’m in her shoes and you haven’t made any effort to contact me again and meet up again … I’d assume we were friends. Or that you had low-level interest.
If I like a guy, I want him to ask me out. And if things go well on the first date, I want him to text me the next day and ask me out again. That’s showing interest. It’s hot.
MJ,
“Lunge at” means to make a move on them physically.
Hi MJ,
I’m going to share some of my experiences with the glimmer.
In my dating days, or more accurately pursuing women with only rare success, mostly in the 90’s, I found that the more the girl (and they were girls back then) caused the glimmer, the more anxiety I felt, and the more likely my initial efforts were to crash and burn.
When I met my wife, by contrast, there was very little initial glimmer, and after a few years, even less. This correlated with relatively low sexual desire initially, collapsing to almost zero later. Other than the sexual part, our relationship was very good — we respected each other, communicated relatively well, enjoyed each other’s company, and so on.
So, what I’m saying is that, in my case at least, there was a tradeoff. Ideally, I’d love to have at least a small amount of glimmer, but not enough to cause anxiety and turmoil. The “Goldilocks” amount, if you will. I realize that, in the real world, you cannot just order a partner that will satisfy all of your wants and needs. You just have to decide which ones are most important, and learn to compromise on the rest.
I have wondered whether some of my unfulfilled wants (not needs) have contributed to my multiple LEs.
Not suggesting your trajectory will be the same as mine, but thought I’d throw in my experience.
Hello
I think the workplace LE would be the worst. My own is similar to yours, kind of.
I am mid 60’s, she is mid 30’s. Both married. ( my wife knows I am Limerent for LO )
She used to work right next to my desk, we became ( I think ) fairly close to and friendly ( in a platonic way )
Still same company now, but farther away. Almost daily lunch time hour long walks.
I care a lot about her, NC is impossible, and so far as I can tell, she enjoys the walks. I tried twice to get her to find another person to walk with… she became upset.
Really…. if I get a choice / wish it would be that she moves on to another company. I cannot myself break the bond
But truly this is a painful nightmare.
When I am NOT with LO, it suffer a LOT. Sadly, given a choice by my damaged Limerent brain… I would be around LO 24/7
Painful with out her presence
I pondered your situation, New_To_Limerence. I tried to think of an exit strategy for you. Sorry, but I don’t see a way out of this that won’t hurt your LO. The best exit strategy is a schedule change that prevents you two from seeing each other. That way, she won’t feel like she did something wrong to cause you to distance yourself, she will just accept that your schedules don’t align anymore.
I think it’s important that you realize she doesn’t understand that her presence causes you pain. It doesn’t make sense at all to her and there is no way to help her understand. If you try to explain it, she will worry that she is a toxic person. I can’t think of any way that you can explain this to her. I know that you have kind of told her, but I really don’t think she gets it.
The only thing besides a schedule change that I think could drift into LC is if you set some limits for yourself.
Don’t initiate contact, but you can be warm when she initiates.
If that doesn’t help, you might have to be boring. Hopefully, you won’t need to be cold because that will hurt and confuse her.
Honestly, there is one thing that will scare her off quickly, but you might face an HR nightmare as a result. If you tell her that the sexual tension is killing you, she will be alarmed and confused. She will avoid you like the plague. I think your work situation will be worse, but your limerence might go away quickly. You will be the talk of the office and a lot of people will lose respect for you. So please don’t do that. Which takes us back to the reality that you can’t explain this to her and expect her to be the one who sets limits. It really is your responsibility to set limits for yourself.
I hope that makes sense. Good luck!
hello, yes it seems you do have a very good understanding of my situation.
And.. I think I am already PLENTY boring!!!
She knows I love her ( not in a weird way ) and I have told her I get dopamine “hits” from her. But she does NOT know about Suffering without her. That would be a terrible thing to tell her! Although she knows I pay attention to when she is away or not available for walks. I cannot tell her about the Pain, that would be too odd.
Also… I am mentally unable to Hurt her, I have tried to stop the walks, she got upset when I mentioned she go with someone “better”. So… that didn’t work.
But… I don’t think anyone who was not experienced this for themselves can understand how Horrible this is, how much it Hurts.
My wife sees my Suffering ( and knows about LO ) but cannot understand it. But is being supportive. Bless her!
Oh… I just re-read your post!!!! God NO, I am not going to tell her I am sexually obsessed with her!! It would not even be true!
as an addition… we have both agreed I should NOT visit her workspace ( I a few times was way too affectionate with her at her desk… even a couple of times Hugged her!!! In front of others!!!!! )
I no longer message her during of after work, and am TRYING hard to not see her Instagram posts.
So… just the long walks for us!
Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. It’s been over three years since I saw her last and sometimes her coming up in conversation with co-workers (like just this past Wednesday when I visited where she use to work) it still causes pain, because I really did like her as a person. I even got to know her daughter.
Here’s the thing; our limerence is our responsibility. I have not contacted her since her last day on the job. The pain was excruciating at first. I tried to drown it in alcohol. But the suffering through it was my decision whether it was actively or unconsciously. I suffered because I chose to ruminate about her.
My responsibility is to let her live her life. To try and guilt trip her into stay at the job would be downright selfish. No matter how LOs view the limerent, there’s no way they can comprehend what they mean to us, like Miss Lovisa said. It is impossible to explain and for them to understand. Hell most of us limerents don’t even know what is happening to us. That’s why everyone teases me “Adam had a crush on [LO’s name]”. How am I going to explain otherwise? Even my wife of 22 years, at the time of disclosure when I found this site, just chalked it up as a emotional affair.
We have to bear our own burden and free our LOs from the prison of our attachment. If you love/care for your LO it is the only right thing to do. How they think of you when you exit seems important, but they will move on with life. What we see as a monumental hurdle for them, they see as a bump in the road. Like Miss Lovisa said, no need to be cold or harsh, but move on yourself. Addiction is empty and self serving.
Adam… thanks for your reply.
Lots there for me to think about.
I do not Burden LO with this… it is my issue, not hers.
I know she would not suffer too bad if our walks stopped… a bit at first… but not too badly. I just want her to get another job somewhere else!
I only disclosed to my Wife because I was LEAKING all over… she could see my suffering and altered / damaged mental state.
At work, when not with LO, I can become withdrawn and kind of mentally foggy and almost grouchy. The moment I start my walks… all good again!! After the walks… suffering again
I would spend 24/7 with her if it was possible.
I read my reply again before yours and it comes off a bit harsh, and I am sorry for that.
I am more frustrated at myself for how I have let this limerence effect me for so long. I didn’t mean to sound like I was lashing out at you. I could have worded my post a bit better.
I am in the same boat with the leaking. I found this place 6 months after her last day on the job. My wife had her suspicions even before I found out what limerence was so I felt obligated to disclose to her in hope of easing her mind that an affair was happening between us, as she had told me that herself.
As a limerent, finding out what limerence is, is like a revelation of relief because you now know what is going on in your head. But to try and put into words to an already suspicious spouse what limerence is, just sounds like physio babble, I’m sure.
Again, sorry to sound harsh, my friend. Glad to have you here.
Thank you for posting this video.
How did the live talk go? What questions did you get? What was the high point of the discussion?
It would be lovely to see a live recording. I am curious about the “slick and lively” parts.
My daughter sent me this:
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1B31Xhwqeg/
Any resemblance to any LwL posters is purely coincidental.
I feel seen! Lol
😆
I could have written that.
DrL should book them to perform at The Limmys!
Oh, that is such a good idea!
From Adam…
I read my reply again before yours and it comes off a bit harsh, and I am sorry for that.
( not at all, sometimes I need “harsh” )
I am more frustrated at myself for how I have let this limerence effect me for so long. I didn’t mean to sound like I was lashing out at you. I could have worded my post a bit better.
( all good… Limerence is HARSH and frustrating )
I am in the same boat with the leaking. I found this place 6 months after her last day on the job. My wife had her suspicions even before I found out what limerence was so I felt obligated to disclose to her in hope of easing her mind that an affair was happening between us, as she had told me that herself.
( I found I HAD to Disclose to my wife… she was think an EA or a PA )
As a limerent, finding out what limerence is, is like a revelation of relief because you now know what is going on in your head. But to try and put into words to an already suspicious spouse what limerence is, just sounds like physio babble, I’m sure.
( I started my Journey to getting here ( LwL ) thinking I just had a Crush on LO… doing some reading, I discovered Limerence… a light went on!!! I wasn’t going “mad” !! ) ( and YES my wife is supportive but not fully convinced )( no one who has not had this horrible experience can really ever understand… UNLESS they were dealing with other addictions… gambling, drugs, alcohol, etc )
Again, sorry to sound harsh, my friend. Glad to have you here.
I didn’t think you sounded harsh, Adam. For what it’s worth, I thought you had some very good and helpful insight.
New_To_Limerence,
I have a few questions for you.
Does your relationship with your LO interfere with your relationship with your SO? Does it distract you in any way from your SO? Is your SO negatively impacted in any way by your LE?
If you went NC (I’m talking about you setting a limit and sticking to it regardless of how your LO responds), would you suffer? Would you get over it after a while? Hypothetically speaking, what do you think would happen if you successfully went NC?
This is just for my own curiosity so I understand if you don’t want to answer.
Hello Lovisa
My wife was / is hurt by it… but getting better at understanding my Suffering, and that it is JUST an addiction, not an EA
But I would say that it only “distracts” my brain ( fuzzy and dopy and stupid ) but I am still loving to my wife ( even when the Limerence makes her angry with me )
I now get VERY nice hello and bedtime hugs from my wife !
Really, unless I make my LO VERY VERY angry with me, going NC will not happen. We have had a few fights and always mended the fence. I think I would have to actually attempt to “come on ” to her and try to like kiss her to make her completely separate from me ( that is NOT going to happen! ). And she would be VERY hurt if I did… and I cannot hurt her. And more importantly…. just NO!
But if we did go NC in some form… I think I would suffer greatly. Longest I have been without her was last Christmas. VERY unhappy / bad time sleeping and intrusive thoughts.
But I am making progress… less / no intrusive thoughts, sleeping better… back to playing guitar 🙂
And I no longer feel intense chest / heart ache… I thought for a few months I was going to have a heart attack… seriously
Now… brain fuzz, loss of focus and coordination, etc
So… yes with NC I would suffer… took me a few years to get over the loss of our Foster daughter
Thank you for appeasing my curiosity, New_To_Limerence.
I love this!
“ I now get VERY nice hello and bedtime hugs from my wife !”
That is so delightfully cute!
Hi all,
I read through the comments section, and am touched by how polite and supportive everyone is of each other. Well done, guys!
Makes me wonder if people only misbehave when I’m around – and, if so – what does that say about me? Incidentally, looking back, I think my LO fit the “bad boy” archetype. Now I’m wondering if I too possess unconscious “bad boy energy” and that makes people more inclined to misbehave around me?
I think the part of limerence I miss is the “life is colour” effect.
I think the part of limerence I don’t miss is the emotional dependency (moods dependent on real and/or perceived reciprocation from LO).
At a certain point in limerence, there does appear to be a “loss of free will” and that’s very scary. I’ve spent most of my adult life trying to claw back free will.
It’s fascinating – I’ve never thought of myself as someone who “wants”, “desires”, “craves”. My sisters tease me about being someone who is apparently “free of desire”. Oops. Looks like someone may have spoken too soon…
Based on personal experience, limerence can devolve into a state of terrible suffering. I guess that’s when things have crossed the line into “behavioural addiction” – if the entire experience can’t be summed up as “behavioural addiction”. E.g. if one is curled up in a ball on the floor and crying because the pain of wanting is so great, etc, etc, and there’s no known method of relief…
I don’t blame LO for any pain I went through. I don’t think he intentionally did anything to inspire either attraction or addiction. Yes, his personality was inconsistent (intermittent reinforcement). But he acted like that with everyone, and most of the people in his life didn’t become addicted to him (as far as I know).
I blame all pain on … the nature of addiction itself. Also, maybe lack of knowledge about what limerence is, and how it can be reined in if caught soon enough. I think “strength of feeling” coupled with “loss of free will” often triggers tremendous feelings of shame, and maked people reluctant to seek out help.
Adolescent hormones, loneliness, unmet needs seem to have triggered my limerence. Maybe I saw my LO as a golden ticket to social acceptance? But now I consistently get the level of social acceptance I want from people in general, I realise that social acceptance in itself isn’t actually a huge reward.
Seems like I was chasing a prize that I didn’t really value. Very strange.
Limerence is like childbirth – once it’s over, one quickly forgets the pain of it all, and forgets that the pain might still be fresh and terrifying for other people.
I just saw Dr. L’s latest addition to the blog – an updated version of the blog entry “On Not Knowing What You Want”. I feel my comment above nicely anticipates this updated post theme-wise. Am I psychic or what? 🤣
Other fun facts. When Dr. L makes a YouTube video on an extremely serious and important topic such as limerence and marriage, he gets about 2500 views in a month. When Dr. L makes a YouTube video on a lighter topic such as “How to Tell if Someone REALLY Likes You”, he gets 10,000 views in one week. Am I the only person who suspects YouTube users of highly selective viewing? It seems like it’s very hard to give people anything that smacks of moral guidance in the information age. 🙄
Would like to give a shout-out to Fenna’s latest video “Your Brain on Obsession”. She doesn’t dig too deep into the neuroscience, so you won’t be tripping over the names of various chemicals, but she does give an excellent rundown on how changes going on inside the brain during limerence may apply to real life. 🙂
Today marks 23 days of NC, but I feel the temptation to text my LO and say “I miss talking to you,” because I do.
It’s Saturday night. I watched a film with my children, but now they are asleep and my SO is out with friends. It’s times like these when I found chatting with my LO so enlivening. The idea that hearing from me again might stir my LO, too… that also tempts me. But it would be no good for either of us. So I won’t.
Well done for posting on here instead! We may not have the glimmer of LO but we’re happy to hear from you.
Thank you, Cloud. I stayed up very late writing, but not to my LO.
Last week, I learned that an older friend who played a key role in my 20s died earlier this year. I wrote about how we met, the things we did (and didn’t), and why I feel sad that we will never speak again, even though we had not been in touch for 20 years.
This friend was an award-winning writer whom I met online when I was 18. In that way, my first contact with the writer and my LO are similar, except that I spent many days and nights with the writer, who enjoyed having me around. We did not have a sexual relationship, though I knew I only had to initiate it if I wanted that. I didn’t, and I broke contact when I wanted to pursue more traditional relationships with smaller age gaps.
This memory affects me now because I still have the urge to make contact with people who give me that glimmer before we even meet. At 18, it was easier to convert being a fan to being a friend, for many reasons.
I forget that, and last night I lost several hours imagining contact with someone I’ve never met, whose acting career may have peaked 15 years ago, whose fan base is small and media presence is even smaller. This person is very private and lives in another country. The likelihood of contact is remote.
There is a room in my heart that I hold vacant for someone new. I struggle to fill it with my work or other responsibilities, or with faith. It is reserved for fantasies, about new connections with people who might find me as exciting as I find them. Logically, they might like having me pay for things, and perhaps some validation I can give them as they reach middle age a few years behind me.
Sapiens,
I’m sorry to hear about your friend, and about the fact you hadn’t found out about their death at the time. I hope you’re ok about it.
It’s really interesting that you have a propensity to make contact as a fan and convert your fandom into friendship. I haven’t read all your posts to discover your full story, but do you have a history of limerence for people like this? I can see how it makes sense, because when we’re limerent for someone we make them into a “celeb” in our mind: someone who mainly exists in our imagination so they can be exactly as we want them to be.
I hope you’ve recovered from your Saturday evening blip and are feeling purposeful again now it’s Monday.
My own behavioral addiction? I hope I’ve made an ick-based breakthrough…
I’ve reached the conclusion that my ex-LO is a narcissist and this is helping me to rationalise.
Her behaviour since meeting her new partner (jettisoning colleague friends, disengaging with all but the most perfunctory ‘professional’ conduct in her role) has been frankly bizarre. I’ve detailed much of it here previously.
And, importantly, she’s like this with *everyone*. It’s not my fault, I’ve not done anything wrong, I’ve not made a fool of myself. Colleagues are utterly bewildered by her behaviour and the one or two who know my difficulties have been incredibly supportive and reassuring.
Apparently, she is now buying a large, detached property with him (he’s loaded), moving in next month, having first met him less than five months ago. Her social media (I’m being told! I don’t view!) is a vacuous mess of newly achieved status in the style of a 17 year old with her first boyfriend (she’s in her 40s). It appears that she now has everything she ever wanted. The *only* thing she wanted. Someone rich to shower her with all the things she believe she deserves, no matter how ridiculously quickly it’s all happening.
I miss her, I miss what we had, I miss the fun, I miss the rush. But the real person that has now emerged could not be further away from the person I thought I knew and the kind of individual I would want to know.
She fooled me, she probably fooled everyone. She made men feel important for her own validation. And now, even though I thought we were close friends, she couldn’t actually care less. Materialism is her God.
I’ll have setbacks, I’ll spiral again… I have no doubt whatsoever. But I have a real feeling now, deep inside me, that I just want to bottle.
Hi Phil,
I can imagine it’s distressing to see your friend change so quickly on meeting her new man.
Is she really a narcissist though ? or just being in a loved up bubble neglecting friends and family ?
From what you have shared, it seems she has found love later in life and is probably making up for lost time, so is not surprisingly she is behaving like a teenager or twenty-something because she hasn’t experienced this ‘swept away’ romance before.
Maybe she thought she would never have the chance to experience it, so she is in total awe and appreciation of it actually happening.
It’s life changing for her, in hopefully a good way long term.
You had / have that deep love of a partner and now she is experiencing it too, against the odds.
If so, then it’s quite lovely isn’t it ? That she is experiencing this now.
I’m sure it’s challenging that she is just focusing on new man and others have fallen from her attention, not just you.
I’m sure that you and others expect her to be more measured at her age to be less “all consumed” by her new love, but your first time in love is crazy regardless of age!
Your friend will probably come back to reality after the bliss and honeymoon period, and may feel regret for being in such an all consumed bubble.
You can be there for her at this time as a true friend if your are a true friend.
You need to be honest on this.
I had to ask myself if I can be a true platonic friend to my LO or not, or are you always wanting more ?
Best wishes
Imho,
you are alive! LaR and me called out for you some time ago, I forgot why? I think just to see how you are. How are you?
Thank you for the very reasonable challenge and, rereading my post, I can see exactly why it looks thst way.
There is much I haven’t said though which leads me to the NPD conclusion. Behaviour which is not just ‘absent’ but a clear indication that a transactional value no longer exists for her. Behaviour which occurred during our ‘friendship’ that I should have been more alive to.
Not just with me but with a number of men, mostly married, whose infatuation with her she often discussed quite gleefully.
I don’t want, nor expect, her to ‘return’. I’ve seen too much now.
Hi Phil,
I saw your recent post after I posted mine. Of course I can only judge from what you had written, only you know the whole picture, and I do know how the puzzle (of understanding/seeing a person) sometimes fits together with small pieces one cannot really explain to others.
So you might be right.
I know the feeling that this person isn’t the person I fell limerent for- this person doesn’t exist and I fooled myself. In my case it’s just that he didn’t fool me or anyone, in my case I just fooled myself and cannot blame him for not being what I thought he was? But that might also be different in your case, only you know, as I said!
Hi Phil,
I agree with Imho in that she might just be completely loved up which could have nothing to do with his wealth or her being a narcissist, also with that she might wake up from her (limerent?) state one day.
„She fooled me, she probably fooled everyone. She made men feel important for her own validation.“ I think that’s quite a harsh deduction from what happened?
But then, I should know how it is to veer onto the far negative side and that it might be necessary to break the spell. If it helps you to finally recognize her weak sides and get rid of limerence, then that might be your way forward!
I just warn you that I don’t think you are judging objectively here (sorry, but not knowing you at all and this being a forum to get rid of limerence, I dare to be blunt;), and also that these negative and condemning thoughts create neuronal pathways of their own. I have a hard time finding back to a relaxed friendship with my XLO because of that, I‘m in the habit of interpreting everything he does /says in a bad way although now I can see that I’m too harsh on him and simply not right in my judging him sometimes. Once the emotions toned down I saw that I was too harsh and in fact that no one doesn’t „owe“ me any kind of special behavior.
It’s hard to step into her shoes for a moment and maybe that’s not what you should be doing right now, maybe it’s good to take a negative stance now.
Me, I can step into her shoes and see that it might not be very mature behavior, but that it might be understandable and she might be completely thrown by this new love, and that it’s very possible that it doesn’t have anything to do with being cold and fooling or using people. LOs are just people too, they might make wrong decisions or be weak or misjudge, but it doesn’t immediately mean they are evil and cold.
Thanks Mila for both your posts. Like others before, the wise counsel is genuinely appreciated 😊
You’re right about the danger of stoking a bitter narrative and I will be careful. I just wish you could be a fly in the wall!
But yes, whether I’m right or wrong, I must continue to be cautious about any assumed narratives, which may be more counterproductive than not.
Thanks again.
Hi Mila, Eventually in my 35 yr LE, I was able to realize what you speak of. I’m glad you are sharing that perspective to people who can benefit from the insight. For me it was part of the process. That perspective of the LO alone did not stop my LE. I think of the LE part of the brain as faith-based. The part of the brain that can see the LO through a more real perspective I think of as logic-based. Faith-based and logic-based people, parts of the brain, etc. cannot see a common truth when the argument for one ultimately comes down to faith or belief.
Phil,
Your fly on the wall comment is interesting, because without that perspective, we here just can’t tell. Your LE for her could be clouding your judgement / narrative, and/or there could also be something very real there.
Like Mila said, most people go through the process at least once of getting all loved up and sidelining everyone and everything else. I have seen many people do it, but then learn from it for the next time.
If that hasn’t really happened for your LO before, or not for a very long time, it will be interesting to see if she ends up circling back and learning from this process. Because as sure as eggs are eggs, honeymoon periods end and we need our friends again.
Hamlet,
I’m interested in this point of yours: “That perspective of the LO alone did not stop my LE.”
If that didn’t stop it, what finally did?
I planned to answer you but suddenly ran out of time after my reply to Imho. Sorry, will try tomorrow or day after (days are packed at the moment!)
Hi LaR,
I shared this before when I was new to the site a month ago. I can see that I was a bit naive and now realize this is a bit more complicated to answer as there are so many different underlying philosophies regarding the LE on this site. But I still think it might be helpful. Ultimately, I realized that I was the LO and I was creating the LE. The LO was an invention of my mind. Yes there was the real person who was the LO and yes we had real interactions (35 years prior 😂), but the LO absolutely was an invention of my limerent mind and this became easier for me to see. That’s one of the advantages to having a LE for 35 years, it is a bit obvious that the LO of 35 years ago can’t possibly be the actual real person in present time behind the LO. I can understand that for some whose real world experience with the LO is not so far in the past, that may be difficult to accept. Again, that alone wasn’t enough to stop the LE. Knowing that my LE was totally illogical was not enough. It occurred to me then that I had to metaphorically “kill” the LO which was surprisingly very difficult. Similar to Bob’s killing of his shadow archetype central to the 2025 Marvel movie, Thunderbolts. As I said before, the LO was actually in a very real sense me. So I was killing a part of myself, killing off the LO that exists in my mind, and killing off the hope that was at the core of my LE. None off those are easy to do. In a very real sense, the LO and the LE were a part of my then present life’s story and I was relegating that story from the present to the past. Now when the LO pops into my mind I don’t have to “kill” her. I’ve reimagined the LO as a paper photograph poster (which was always a more accurate representation of her instead of the LO who I kept alive and in the present in my mind) that I just rip up before I can ruminate on her.
Hi Hamlet,
Thanks for clearing that up. I do remember reading before when you said about metaphorically tearing up a photo of ‘LO’.
“There are so many different underlying philosophies regarding the LE on this site”
Hmm, I’m not so sure. I think most regular posters – while their LE’s differ widely – do coalesce on limerence as behavioural addiction and on LE being triggered by some kind of lacks or unresolved issues within themselves (though take time to get there). Limerents sort of project those onto LO (never a realistic version of the person behind the label) and use it to paper over whatever cracks there are. Others could explain that more theoretically via Jungian concepts, for example.
Almost the whole active LwL community have had a variation on that projection process.
Another point in common to most here is eventual acceptance of the need to (truly) kill hope, to end an LE. But people differ a lot on how they achieve that death of hope (cheery eh?!). DrL wrote a great post about it years ago.
Where I find the LwL community differs is in how much the LO is present in the person’s life. So for example you haven’t seen yours in 35 years, mine is in my life daily. But similar to you, I still ascribed her all sorts of qualities and statuses that aren’t anything like the same as the real person. I think ‘LO’ is kind of a figment of all limerents’ brains – so I’d argue the underlying philosophies aren’t as different as they might first seem.
It’s just that for some the person is more present and for some less so. Some latch limerence more onto a realistic relationship (and make it less realistic as a result – i.e. me), while for some it can be a complete fantasy, like limerence for a celebrity, or even a teacher from 50 years ago was once mentioned!
Hi LaR,
I was in fact partly referring to the different casual models of limerence that you mention (addiction, Jungian, others). I respect that this site is based on the addiction model while my own solution was more Jungian. For some here, Christianity and faith are important to their dealing with the LE. You also have some here who believe in taking action and actively resolving the LE whereas others try to resolve the LE and their relationship to the LO from afar. All these I see as competing philosophies in how to deal with limerence, life, love, etc. On an even more basic level, sometimes I read posts here that remind me of the movie Wall Street, except with Gordon Gecko saying, “Limerence, for lack of a better term, is good.” The difference between bad limerence and good limerence is just whether it goes unrequited or not. That feels a bit like the SNL skit, “It’s not sexual harassment if Tom Brady does it.” This isn’t the majority of posts by any means but it is a theme here that I’ve noticed. Even a minority opinion of say 20% is still 1 out of 5 people. Honestly I just find this all fascinating as I continue to find my way around this community.
Hamlet,
There is loads to learn and debate here for sure.
I’m probably pushing my luck now if I try to combine the philosophies – but why not? The Jungian side accounts for who is vulnerable to limerence and who they land on as an LO. Meanwhile the behavioural addiction side accounts for what then happens (a pattern of reinforcement, whether via the LO or alone via rumination, fantasy etc) and therefore why it sustains and needs to be ‘broken’ (but can’t without difficulty or attention to the origins, like other addictions).
I do find it harder to square with that, the idea of “limerence as love gone wrong or love frustrated”. I think a lot of limerents believe their LE is just that (not nec unrequited love, just love that can’t be acted on), but sometimes all that is part of the projection. But, real cases of frustrated love do produce feelings that, from experience, feel much like limerence. I then drive myself into a dead end trying to figure out if that and a total fantasy LE can reasonably be classified under the same term…
Hi LaR,
That is the problem with diagnosing based on symptoms alone. Different things all have the same outward appearance. Like diagnosing a person with a cough and a mild fever. Now that I know about limerence, I can see that my son with autism had a LE for an online scammer. Akin to the celebrity fantasy example that you cite because the scammer “looked” like his favorite actress. Autism (like anxiety in my case) takes LE to a whole other level. We just said that he fell victim to a scammer but now I say, yeah, but… Again this is why I see trying to communicate on this blog is more difficult than I naively thought at first.
Hamlet,
I think you’re right – I don’t think that we could ever hope to pin down a definition of limerence that all this community agrees with. People’s experiences and ways of dealing with it are just too different.
The plurality of perspectives in this blog is one of its greatest strengths, I’ve found. Sometimes I can get half a dozen different replies to a dilemma, and then have to think which bits I want to take notice of and which just don’t apply to me. But it increases the scope of options or routes compared to what I’d think of on my own.
But I have come to a similar conclusion to you – even with the posters I’ve got on best with, there was/is always a need for checkbacks, clarifications, occasional apologies – such as it will always be when trying to talk about something as deep as the subject matter here using only the written word with no other cues.
DrL has made a video quite recently talking about co-occurrence of limerence with things like autism, ASD and OCD. I hope this is a fair representation but what I took from it was ‘they often but not always co-occur’. There was also a research based post on here years ago (I tried to find it just now but couldn’t) about how limerence is spread across the personality types from Myers Briggs. A few categories had nearly all the limerents – I think INFJ was top. So certain character types do end up clustering here … and that might help to explain the prevalence of certain views or communication styles.
(If anyone can find that post and drop a link under here, that would be good, as I may be misrepresenting based on my memory alone)
It’s titled ”how common is limerence” — June 20, 2020
https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-common-is-limerence/
Thanks!
The relevant quote from DrL in that article:
“Two MBTI categories dominate the surveyed limerents: INFJ and INFP. These categories account for nearly half of all the self-selected limerents who read Lucy’s article, but represent only about 1.5% and 4.4% of the general population, respectively”
(The original research was done by Dr Lucy Bain of Neurosparkle)
Hi LaR and Deep Seek,
Thanks for the article. It was interesting. I’ll check out the video as well. INTJ is my type. I’m in a very good place right now, but this shows me that I’m just more prone to limerence than the average person so I have to take care to avoid any new LE in the future.
Phil,
Has this never happened to you? A friend gets into a relationship and falls off the planet? It’s happened to me many times.
Well… no not really 😊
But as I’ve just said to imho, and didn’t really articulate earlier, it’s more than just absence sadly.
Phil,
I’m surprised. It happened to me as early as college. And has continued through middle age. One is similar to your story. Middle-aged friend. Had never been maried. Met someone and was engaged within a few months. Our friendship is totally different now. I hear from him so much less and it’s just text short exchanges and much shorter calls.
Friendships change. It’s part of life. It sucks but it’s very common.
“It’s not my fault, I’ve not done anything wrong”
Phil
I believe you. You haven’t done anything wrong either. Ultimately, she’s made her choice and it hurts like hell you’re not on the receiving end of it. I totally get this feeling.
I think we’ve chatted before about the similarities in our situations. Although I don’t believe my Lady Friend is buying property with the guy yet. I’m kinda in a point where I wouldn’t care if she was. In a way, I want her to be unhappy though. Like I want the honeymoon phase to wear off and die and then she be super sick of him already, and his short king attitude. That and his insecure way of always hanging around her. I’m still hurt by us basically becoming strangers again. That even when we do speak it’s always awkward and forced. Then I get nervous and forget what I really want to say, so I just go away. Better to leave her alone before I say something I regret. I should be happy for her but I’m not. I was used but only for validation and I hate it.
Try not to let it get you down too much. She isn’t worth it and there are other fish in the sea. Once you are ready, you’ll see and then you’ll start to slowly forget all about her. I hope somebody will surface for you at some point.
Keep the Faith Freind..
Thanks as ever MJ. The ‘hope it crashes and burns’ emotion is very real and I get that. But to what end? Certainly not to my advantage. That’s what I’m coming to terms with.
Moving on, somehow, some way is the only solution.
All the best to you.
You’re very welcome..
Keep us posted.. 👍🏻
Hi MJ and Phil, one idea that was part of my ultimate process to overcome LE was the mimetic theory of Rene Girard. It taught me a lot about myself and the LO. Phil, this LO achieved her validation from harmless married men desiring her and not from who she herself was alone. Similarly, you achieved validation from a LO that other men found desirable. According to Girard’s theory, you wouldn’t have desired her if other men didn’t. It’s a love triangle between you, the LO, and these other men . Knowing that humans are susceptible to these hidden desires and trying to take firmer control of my true desires helped me in my journey.
Hamlet,
I can see why this logic works. Often I desired a friendship with LF like the one she had with a married guy she hooked up with. I got along well with him and still do as a matter of fact. While there’s only been a mild jealousy of how he’s retained his friendship with her over time, I’ve never held it against him. Infact we never talk about her either, which is fine by me because I’m past all the drama anyway.
It’s her problem who she allows into her little world. If she’s supposedly happy with her SO now and still hooking up with the married guy, I wish them all nothing but the best. Yet a part of me also kinda hopes it all eventually blows up in her face.
Hi Phil,
I might be mixing you up with someone else. When you said, “It’s not my fault, I’ve not done anything wrong,” I thought, “Isn’t Phil the guy who kissed his LO?” If that’s you, let me be clear about this. Married men don’t kiss other women. It’s wrong. Don’t do it again.
Congratulations on your new revelation! It sounds like you are on the fast track to recovery!
😂 Ouch! Ripping the band-aid right off. Regardless if this is that Phil or not, one can’t enjoy the full LE without delusion.
Yes, it’s me. Tough love eh! 🤪
Well… I definitely can’t claim that I’ve haven’t ‘done anything wrong’ in the broadest sense!
What I meant was that I’ve not done anything specifically, in isolation, to merit her freezing me out entirely.
It’s been pointed out to me that her behaviour in this regard has been the same with pretty much everyone.
But yes, entirely accept the wider point you make and I am coming to terms with my previous actions as part of this whole mess.
Lovisa
I totally agree on the NO kissing!
I would like to add … esp in the workplace… be careful about hugs. I used to be comfy with it ( when a coworker leaves, or a special reason ) but I have backed right off.
With people I like, I and very touchy and huggy, quite physical. But…
I do NOT hug LO anymore. For a variety of reasons ( it was making me feel more connected to than we are in Reality, and I think she let me because she is too nice and doesn’t like to say no…. so…. no more! )
And I had one female colleague start giving me hugs a little TOO friendly… a little too warmly as it were.
So my new policy… NO hugs with other women!
And… my wife has been giving me VERY nice hugs these days!!
Thing is, I’m scared of that. Do I really want to be her friend again? To get close? To enjoy her company once more? That way lies madness…
Hi Speedwagon,
I hope you’re doing well.
I’ve just recently been going through the archives looking at your LC journey over the past three years, along with its ups and downs.
I too have been on the cusp of recovery at least three times, each time followed by a major backslide, mostly before finding this site. Right now, i am hoping to keep up my modest momentum.
I was very happy to see your last major post back in May, which had an optimistic tone.
I would like to hear more about your journey since then; what you said resonated so strongly.
Wishing you the best.