One of the key principles for recovery from limerence here at LwL is: limerence is happening in your head.
I stick by that principle, as it’s both true and useful.
Nobody else can fix the problem for you. You can’t expect your LO to change their lives to make your recovery easier, you can’t expect your spouse to change their behaviour to “win you back”, and you can’t expect third parties (like your boss or company HR) to change how much exposure you have to your LO.
All that said, it is also true that limerence isn’t entirely an internal battle.
External factors can make it worse.
And one of those external factors is how your LO behaves.
Another major headache in managing limerence is that it’s an altered mental state, and that means your thinking processes can get screwy.
It’s hard to trust your own judgement when you’re addled with hope and romantic intoxication.
To help with these problems, I’ve been working on an online assessment to try and put a number (actually 5 numbers) to the question of how much a specific LO contributes to the intensity of limerence.
I’ve now finished the first draft.
It’s a 25 question quiz (max 25, depending on your answers), that shouldn’t take more than 3 minutes to complete.
It’s designed to find out how many limerence-reinforcing behaviours your LO has.
It also assigns a “profile” to your LO, depending on how actively they engage in intimacy-deepening behaviours.
Please test it for yourself:
To be useful, this quiz has to be accurate and reliable, and so I’m asking for your help in testing it out!
Put yourself in the mindset of when you were in the most intense part of your last limerence experience (if you aren’t currently there), and try and answer the questions as honestly as you can.
The quiz asks for your email, but I won’t be doing anything with it. The software is designed to work by sending a link to the results page to an email account (and pdf version, when I finish that), but I’m not going to send any follow up emails.
During this initial testing phase, I’ll leave the quiz open till the new year, and then delete all the users and revise the whole thing based on feedback.
That’s what I really want. Feedback – on the quality of the questions, on the quality of the analysis, and on any glitches or errors that crop up.
Most fundamentally: does the result feel right?
Does it make your LO more recognisable and understandable?
All feedback is much appreciated!
Share your results in the comments š
Hi Dr L,
I took the test, trying to put myself into my mindset during my last LE when it was strongest, which was when he was still working with me but his moving away was already very probable. Not sure if I succeeded to answer as I would have back then.
The result doesnāt feel quite right to me , and I think itās because my LO is neurodivergent or at least very limited in his emotional expression. I think for him we reached the height of emotional and even physical intimacy he could reach with someone else than his SO, while for me, it was nowhere close to real emotional intimacy , and physically I craved much more hugs etc than he would ever consider to anyone including his SO.
Because of this difference in our whole emotional experience, uncertainty on my side was much higher than the score in this test , because I felt that he was very attached to me and emotionally involved, but couldnāt show it. I could never be sure of his real feelings for me because I couldnāt assume that actions/word/looks/gestures would be the same emotional interpretation for him as for me. Also, he seems quite repressed and I think he also denied a lot and didnāt want to acknowledge that his connection to me was crossing a line.
What I want to say is, that itās a bit more complicated than the questions in the test. Iām alright with barriers, contact, communication, but intimacy and uncertainty are a bit more tricky, I think. As I said for intimacy, do you mean how LO perceived intimacy or how I did, for example, and also uncertainty is based on a lot of factors inside oneself and LO.
I still think itās a good test. I love tests:)
I realize that I sound negative and derogative about neurodivergence which wasnāt my intention and I do apologize.
Itās a residual resentment for the struggle I had in my last LE. The problem wasnāt neurodivergence per se, it was a bit in how my LO deals with it, and also simply limerent illusion itself in seeing a person as someone he wasnāt which was entirely my problem.
Mila,
I agree. I am not sure it is anything DrL can change, but some of what we might want to say about the individual nuances of how the LO communicates, are outside what the questions ask. Like any survey I ever complete, I sometimes wanted to write ‘it depends’.
I got 76% trying to imagine it at the peak – how do you compare?!
Hi LaR,
I got 78%. But as I said, Iām not quite sure how I would have answered the questions back then.
As much as I love tests, I cannot say the results made my LO more recognizable or understandable (Dr L asks about it), but maybe it would have back then? I donāt think so, to be honest, but I donāt go much for numbers anyway, I wouldnāt have jumped at a certain percentage or not.
And also because I would have doubted my own estimation of the situation and if I gave the answers right, brcause actually it would depend all on my own faulty limerent interpretation again, so nothing neutral about it?
Yes that’s another fair point that I also thought about – how would limerents’ self reports ever make reliable data?!
But I think the usefulness is that if lots of people answer it (and presumably most of them are also afflicted with the same skewed judgement), then it allows some generalisations and comparisons of LOs to be made. It was quite accurate in how it characterised my LO.
I think I can give more accurate answers looking back at the peak in the rearview mirror than I would have been able to when I was at the peak (I consider myself about 18 months on from it). Maybe that should be another question that the data could be compared on – “what stage of early/ peak/ late/ ended limerence do you think you’re at?”
Dear all,
I got 60 something % so he is not that addictive. The biggest breakthrough for me was the fact that LO is an “enabler”. I knew this but it’s really interesting to have it spelled out.
When I was deep in limerence, Christmas was really hard. It still might be a trigger, let’s see. And good luck to all of us in the coming weeks,
Bewitched
Dr L,
I took it. My score was ‘only’ (lol) 76%.
I thought all the questions were pretty clear. There is some occasional switching between use of first person ‘I’ and second person ‘you’ in the answers that could be ironed out.
I wonder if it would be more accurate to frame it as “how addicted are you to your LE?” or “how addictive is your LE?” more than “how addictive is your LO?”. I suggest this in respect of the questions themselves, the way the answer breaks down, and of the reality of an LE – the LO is not addictive to every other person, so why us?!
The overall result and how it assigned my LO a ‘friendly’ profile and said recovery with that type of LO is hard – that is all word perfectly true. This kind of taps at my previous point too – my LO is an extroverted friendly person who will, to over simplify, talk to anyone who will listen! So I found myself answering some questions with that in my head, like ‘how much does your LO talk to you?’. Answer – a lot, but also talks to other people a lot. It is a bit like the point Mila just made, but in reverse.
Some of my sub scores feel a bit low – Barriers 43% but I have high barriers through being in an existing relationship, contact 50% but reality is that have several hours of contact most days.
The much higher scores for Communication and Intimacy, and the 50% for Uncertainty, feel much more logical and intuitively ‘right’
It’s great, though, and I’ll be very interested to see where it goes and the results it produces. Thanks for coming up with it.
My score is 66, regarding the last LE. The key factor was communication. My monologues and imaginations kept my LE high back then.
Total NC is hugely effective to my mindā¦
Finding root(s) cause of LE and removes it would lead to oneās own growth and help avoid slipping into any future LE.
Addictive LO or not, looking fabulous or not, we ARE ALL ordinary:
Why many Adults Fear Being āOrdinaryā ā https://youtu.be/GRW7ISVNSCA?si=LKS4PgtAjHYMSdGB
Fulfillment is a goal of Purposeful Living:
Happiness vs Fulfillment ā https://youtu.be/v0H7LM7qj5s?si=wE7N6N3y39004W1f
I retook the test with my current mental state regarding the latest LE (totally ended in April), and got overall 0% with 50% barriers. All other 4 areas are 0%.
In the morning, I used my previous mentality when I was still in the middle of LE, and scored overall 66%.
Thanks all for the comments and feedback. Exactly what I need!
I also scored low on barriers, which seems an anomaly. Part of the problem is weighting of answers, I suspect. Some barriers (e.g. being married) clearly matter more than other barriers (e.g. not being able to control contact in a professional setting), but the software just calculates an overall percentage. Will work on fixing that.
I got a score of 83% overall, for anyone interested.
80% The narrative of each results section are all fairly correct and better quality than I expected after I initially finished answering.
This one struck me :
“You scored medium on communication, which is the worst case scenario, as it means you can never quite know when or how they will respond, or how they really feel about you.” Yup !
On feedback Dr L, I appreciate you cannot have every base covered to keep the test short and folks engaged to the very end
However, I would say on the intimacy question(“I would describe my connection to LO as ..”) the answers to choose from are extremely broad. Physical intimacy, for example, can vary a lot and there is no options for nuance.
And on this question (I am able to control the amount of contact I have with LO: often, sometimes, rarely)
There is the amount of contact in a frequency perspective, and then there is the amount of time you actually spend with them 121.
I am thinking of a scenario of a large work/social group.
The first you may not be able to control and you see them all the time but the amount of time you talk to the LO maybe more in your control, as an example.
Thanks!
66%. My only comment is that it isn’t a questionnaire about their personality or behaviour towards us, but more about the whole situation, taking into account things like how often we see them and whether that’s predictable. There is nothing untoward in his behaviour towards me and my relatively high score is down to external factors. So I think the title “How addictive is your LO” might need tweaking. It’s more a question of how addictive the LE is.
I don’t feel my result was accurate. I scored 49% overall, but 70% on uncertainty.
It said that the more contact I had with him, the more limerent I would become (?), or something to that effect. I have forgotten the exact wording already.
I am not finding that to be true. I posted yesterday on the Coffeehouse thread that LO is starting to become boring to me. I spent almost two hours with him yesterday, and I didn’t particularly enjoy it. I found he was irritable discussing certain subjects, and I had to steer the conversation to something he loves–interior design, antiques, furniture–to keep him in a good mood.
Which was fine for him, he seemed happy, but I was bored out of my mind.
Maybe it’s because my limerence is losing steam?
That’s a great sign, Norma!
I too, found that the more I knew about my LO, the more banal she became to me.
This is the opposite experience to how healthy attraction works – the more you uncover about someone, the more fascinating they should be.
It’s also because we’re discovering that the person underneath the LO is not actually our LO.
To Ghostzoned:
It’s the opposite of No Contact, but it seems to work.
Thank you for your comments.
81%
I canāt get away from him, he is stuck in my mind. I know I could write him and he would answer. But he doesnāt want to meet me, doesnāt want to get to know me. He is married. But he is always available for erotic chat..
Thatās awful, Laloba! Stay away from that man!
On January two years.. C NC C NC and so on.
I built a strong emotional bond to him due to childhood trauma. It is very difficult for me to stay away, just watching if he is online and if he posted a new profile foto..
It hurts less than in the beginning but I canāt see an end..
Oh my goodness, Laloba. He is using you. He is degrading you. Have you tried Dr Lās Deprogramming methods? You are worth so much more than āerotic chat.ā
Totally agree with Miss Lovisa. The man is taking advantage of your feelings for him and using you for his own carnal pleasure AND he’s married. This guy is bad news all around. If anything maybe the motivation to not contact him could be for his wife’s sake? Or the fact that you probably aren’t the only woman he is using in this manner?
While things were never erotic with LO, I had little dignity in regards to trying to elicit the attention I did want from her, so I am not one to belittle someone else’s similar situation….
Lovisa and Adam,
nearly one year ago was the last time when we had erotic chat. He tried to initiate it sometimes but I didnāt and I donāt want it anymore. It hurts to much afterwards. Iām progress in very little steps. I donāt even want to write him. But he is still in my head and in my heart and I canāt forget him. There is no other man I long for that much.
When he changed his username and I couldnāt find him any more I was devastated for some days and I cried a lot. Now he has his old username again and I can watch his profile and his photos again. Today he posted a photo with a text: get in touch ā¦
I posted a photo with: what for
Every evening we are online the same time without writing just seeing the other one is online. Nuts.
Hello Laloba,
One year without erotic chat is a great accomplishment! Nice work! Iām proud of you for putting a stop to the erotic chat.
Iām sorry that youāre suffering. Dr L recommends no contact including online. Do you feel strong enough to leave the chat room where you see your LO? Can you at least reduce the amount of time that you spend there? You will probably go through some withdrawal, and you might even feel some relief.
I like how Adam provided some male-perspective about your situation.
Best wishes!
I got a 50%. Literally zero percent on everything (Contact, Communication, Intimacy, Uncertainty) except for “Barriers,” where the entire 50% was earned.
Dr. L was right. NC is the road out. I keep telling myself that. š
I got 50% only on barriers. Overall score was 0%. Just a weird day for me to get lost in the past. Which is about all LO is at this point. I don’t NOT think about her but I hardly feel obsessed.
However, I do still get emotional over her at times. It irritates me that fake memories feel so real, when they never actually were. That may be all I really struggle with these days. I can remember how it felt to be in that difficult roller coaster type place all the time, where my emotions were all over the place. Its a place I’d rather not revisit.
MJ,
“I donāt NOT think about her but I hardly feel obsessed.”
I still think about mine a lot, but I won’t let myself do anything about it. There’s a huge gap between my inner and outer lives.
I’m watching this documentary about William White, who’s in his early 20s, with more than 2 million followers on TikTok. Mostly middle-aged women. He posts videos lip synching to hits from our generation (Mandy from Barry Manilow), winks, takes his shirt off, humps the bed. They send him money (lots of it), gifts, he posts live while at restaurants with his friends and his followers will call the place and pay the bill. I guess my side is as shallow as yours. He’s working it and it’s working for him. Use it while you got it, I guess. š
Ok, he just hooked up with one of the followers. Now it’s a cat fight. S**t’s about to go down. Undersexed, older women getting all riled up. š
I think this is really underappreciated, that limerence is in fact a type of situation. This is trivially proven by pointing out that some people are potential LOs and some people aren’t.
A possible hypothesis for many people is that an LO is somebody you can attach to quickly (they e.g. look like a parent or childhood friend, among many reasons), but then becomes an insecure situation for another reason instead of a relationship.
The funny thing is this was kind of known to Elaine Hatfield in 1978/1985 (A New Look at Love), but then it was all forgotten when researchers came to think of “passionate love” as a synonym for “being in love” (as if the state is equivalent across all partners and potential partners) around 1988/1992.
“It appears, then, that both the man or woman who offers us security and the man or woman who threatens to shatter our snug, cozy existence can stimulate a strong passionate response.” āHatfield & Walster, 1985, p. 76
But she thinks of both as “passionate”, and thinks of companionate love as second best (e.g. “you can’t always get what you want”, p. 127).
Stanton Peele (1988, “Fools for Love”), the architect of love addiction, is criticizing that literature for being unrealistic about this, although he thinks limerence is developmental and also seems to basically be opposed to anyone being romantically “preoccupied” with a partner at all. I guess Peele didn’t understand obsessive versus harmonious “passion” either.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338708581_Why_are_you_passionately_in_love_Attachment_styles_as_determinants_of_romantic_passion_and_conflict_resolution_strategies
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/human-neuroscience/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2012.00218/full
The questionsā¦what best describes your current situation and the next question āwhat best describesā¦ā have alternatives that didnāt sync with me. Perhaps add an āotherā? Orā¦a ānone of the aboveā alternative?
I got 73%, my LO doesnāt have social media that I am aware of, and the uncertainty score is 17% -low! Uncertainty is the rocket fuel of Limerence however, the high score on ācertaintyā of frequent contact likely compensates there.
I think that a potential weakness in this survey is that some of the criteria are very subjective and the survey takers are not reliable witnesses. Asking a person with an altered mental state might not yield an accurate response, especially if the question involves the feelings of another person. I am still struggling to understand how I could so completely have misjudged my LO’s feelings for me. I think most who meet him would agree with that he is a charming extrovert who radiates enthusiasm for his occupation and a desire to share his knowledge. I think he also enjoys the spotlight. I think it is very possible that he enjoyed the attention that I gave him and he certainly seemed to enjoy my company. But I misunderstood this behavior to indicate that my feelings for him were reciprocated, when perhaps he was just being polite. So beyond questions that are entirely factual, such as the barriers and amount of contact I think that there are limits to the tools that one can use to judge the addictive nature of an LO. Perhaps as others have suggested the questionnaire should focus on the nature of the LE instead.
Thanks for all these comments, folks. Really, really helpful.
It definitely is hard to get a “pure” measure of how addictive a person is, outside of the context of the broader limerence episode. It’s especially hard when trying to cover every possible limerence episode scenario! That issue needs work, as the goal is to help people who are in the middle of limerence to (at least semi) objectively assess how their LO’s behaviour is contributing. So, even if they do have limerence-tinted glasses on, the limerent should be able to answer direct questions like “how often do they do THIS” and get some insight.
This is partly because I get a lot of emails asking me to try and help limerents understand why their LO is doing what they are doing.
Thanks again, and keep the comments coming! Plus, any suggestions about alternative questions that would be good markers for “enabling” LOs also welcomed…
To Tom:
Maybe I should not have taken the quiz, then. My LO is not manipulative AT ALL.
I have done all of this to myself.
Hi Norma. If that’s true, then it’s useful to know, surely…
But, an important point is that the LO’s behaviour can reinforce limerence – they can be “addictive” – even if there is no deliberate manipulation.
The quiz tells you whether they act in a way that could deepen limerence, not what their motives for acting in that way are.
And to add: if I remember your story correctly, your LO asks a lot of you, seeks favours and support, and generally encourages you to participate in his life.
That’s all enabling. Especially if he knows/suspects that you are romantically attracted to him.
To Tom:
No, you’re thinking of someone else. LO came out neutral; he asks me for very little. He’s a very self-sufficient person.
Apologies, Norma. The coffeehouse is so full of stories I do sometimes get muddled.
To Tom:
I am the one who is in love with LO’s house.
Norma, didn’t your LO ask you to help his mother whilst he went away without any notice or care for the imposition.
Along with other attributes you have shared here, he may not be manipulative but also not a true friend. Where I am from sone would use the term a “user”.
To Imho:
I had forgotten about that. Yes, he did ask but never followed through. I ended up not having to do anything.
No, he certainly isn’t much of a friend, that’s why repeated exposure to him turns me off and makes me less limerent.
Norma and IMHO,
That’s what I was thinking too. Doesn’t he expect you to listen to his problems at length and sympathise? And there was also the time he asked that impossible favour which you were stressed about. I’m sure there are other examples but I can’t remember. Dr L’s description doesn’t sound like entirely the wrong one to me.
To Miss Cloud:
Point taken, but I don’t see him as expecting that.
I volunteer for the service of listening to him, which is on me.
Dear Tom,
Enabling behaviours that I experienced included a lot of initiating common work projects, with no real excuse for that (he’s not my boss or line manager, LO was also not local to my workplace so I had no reason to interact much with him, otherwise). LO always initiated contact about that work as well. It occasionally drifted into social contact, initiated by him.
This was a pattern over half a decade.
Plausible deniability always existed for all of this (he’s neurodiverse so a bit excitable). So I never really considered it enabling until I disbthe survey. I think the relevant question in the survey was about initiating contact (?)
Partly LO enabled my quirks (I’m a do-er at work) so I think the combination of him and me was a bad one. He’s quite friendly and fun so he pushed all the right buttons for me.
Thanks, Bewitched. Yes, that’s the kind of mental connection I’m hoping to trigger. Looking at objective details like: do they seek my company? Do they start conversations? Do they blur professional boundaries into social interactions?
There may be lots of mitigating factors or plausible deniability, but the motives don’t actually matter. It’s the behaviour that generates hope and uncertainty that turbocharges limerence.
Yes, I think itās important to stress that this doesnāt mean LO is doing it on purpose or with dubious motives. It might be perfectly correct behavior in terms of a friendship , or as an excitable co-worker as in Bewitcheds example.
Iām a bit wary of blaming LOs for limerence, and āenablingā sounds a bit like blaming to me. They might just be innocently friendly like they are to every other person, and itās the limerentās illusory interpretation that this mightāmeanā something.
I know Iām not the right person to moralize about that since I got resentful at my LO not being like I wanted him to be.
Still, Iām a bit wary of the āIām a victim because evil LO smiled at meā mindset (Iām exaggerating, of course;) but you get my drift.)
The calculated score that separates “Friendly LO” and “Enabling LO” in the profiling was the hardest problem to solve. I’m not sure I did. Enabling LOs consistently score highly on friendliness, and vice versa. I tried to use signs like flirting, talking about love and romance, and physical intimacy to steer towards Enabling and away from Friendly, but it’s a delicate balance.
Thank you for clarifying this. I think I understand better now what you are looking for and thinking about it this way is tremendously helpful. I think that I have created a lot of my own suffering by dwelling on my actions/responses to my LO and the mistakes that I made, particularly because I misjudged his motives. In Buddhism they call this the second arrow – the first arrow is the natural experience of human experience that causes suffering (such as craving); the second arrow is the self-aversion for the fact of the first. Somehow it helps me to feel a little bit more compassion for myself when I focus on his behaviors instead.
I feel like, from the experiences that I have read here, that most all LOs have no motive. They are just being themselves. Did it look like she was being extra nice to me? Sure. But you were going out of your way to give her preferential treatment. And she was being politely thankful to you. As limerents we see the end result of our actions, while ignoring (maybe willfully) said actions and wallowing in their responses.
Like Saturday at the company Christmas party one of my female co-workers said I looked fabulous, for what I was wearing. I smiled and said “thank you. But from what everyone else is wearing I seem a bit over-dressed.” If LO had told me that …..
It helps me to think stuff like “LOs are just people living their lives. Mostly they never asked for the label or status we’ve given them. They may not even know we’ve given them it”.
I fully know that exceptions exist. Present the same behaviours from the same limerent, to two LOs, and their reactions will be totally different (hence their effects on the limerent and the LE). I think that’s what DrL is trying to get at.
Adam, this!
LO is just a normal man behaving in a normal way. Yes, there are things about the situation seem to reinforce limerence but the only way for him to behave differently would be to blank me altogether, which may even cause me to suspect returned feelings!
Hi Dr L,
Sorry,
I didnāt know there was an āenabling LOā profile in the test (mine was friendly),
I picked the word āenablingā from Bewitchedās post or yours before that, I think.
Iām sure there are LOs who enjoy the attention and fuel it deliberately, but not sure if there isnāt room for negative misunderstanding there (how does one really know if itās deliberate? Some people just want to be nice, and everyone is āniceā in a different way)
Even āflirtingā is something subjective, I guess.
But now I understand better what you are aiming at, thanks!
Dr. L,
So my current LO is not enabling. I shut the whole thing down … and the he actually listened. I say that sarcastically because a part of me wishes he hadn’t.
But I believe the previous one was enabling. I’m not limerent for him anymore so I answered the questions based on my current LO. (I only have one LO at a time.) But the previous one would come and visit me in my office, would be very flirtatious, would be complimentary about my appearance, would get touchy/feely every so often. And there were times he pulled back and I’d only see him if I ran into him, but he’d still be flirtatious. I’m assuming this is the kind of enabling you’re talking about ?
Here is another thing DrL, would you want to ask people in your questionnaire if their LO has been madr aware of their (the limerent’s) feelings?
Because I’d argue an LO is only really being enabling if they know what iy is they’re enabling. Many LOs are oblivious or semi-oblivious.
LaR
“Here is another thing DrL, would you want to ask people in your questionnaire if their LO has been madr aware of their (the limerentās) feelings?”
I would argue that an LO who is doing all of the things I mentioned above is aware of what they are doing. However, he and I also had a feelings/mutual disclosure conversation … so I’m sure that he knew. And he continued those same behaviors after disclosure.
HOWEVER … and this is a HUGE caveat that had I understood would have saved me a LOT of wasted years and one I think most limerents also don’t grasp … there was no intention behind his behavior/words. Which I think is probably true of a lot of LOs. (I’d argue most limerents don’t have intention, either, but that’s another conversation.)
Hi Tom, Mila and all,
Re: Enabling LOs versus Friendly LOs,
I definitely took the survey results to mean that my LO is enabling limerence in me due to a combination of his traits that causes me problems, and not his fault, per se. We’re a bad combination, as I said.
About splitting the difference in the survey between a friendly and a enabling LO , one thing that I think I ticked in the survey was physical intimacy. This was in addition to him initiating lots of contact, like I mentioned above. I think that profile of creating physical intimacy changes things away from friendly towards enabling, right? The types of examples I can mention for that would be a lot of touching which fell into the same category as gentlemanly behaviour, but none of the other women at work got that treatment and it was consistent. I think that is also my fault (being receptive to it), so I’m not blaming LO. I just think that maybe it helps distinguish an enabling from a friendly LO. I am not sure if Tom is analysing responses to different sections of the survey in combination with each other.
Its a helpful corrective to keep reminding myself that LO enabled me to make myself limerent š
I can look at question-level data, which is turning out to be really interesting and revealing my incorrect assumptions. For example, less than half of respondents have indirect contact with their LO. I expected that to be higher. Also, 25% of respondents were physically intimate with their LO. I expected that to be lower.
This is all really useful, especially when combined with the comments. Version 2 will definitely have more on touch and sexual suggestiveness, and less on modes of communication. Eye contact too. Can’t believe I missed that one first time around!
Dr L, Bewitched,
Maybe it would be good to specify physical intimacy? Maybe itās only because Iām not a native speaker, but I thought you mean real intimacy like kissing. Not hugs or even over- friendly touching like Bewitchedās LO did, I assumed you meant something thatās obviously beyond friendship and of a sexual nature.
Also, room for different interpretations. For some people, hugs would specify as physical intimacy, but not for me, for example. I frequently hug my colleagues etc, but wouldnāt say Iām āphysically intimateā with them.
Dear Tom & Mila,
Yes, to both of your comments. Maybe there is a way of asking the question so that whether the behaviour is enabling *to you* in the context where you normally encounter LO?
So, about Mila’s point on whether hugging is intimate, I am a hugger but not at work. I’m aware that other work places are less formal than mine. So it might be whether its unusual physical intimacy for the context you’re in. Or, whether its special treatment (is LO more of a gentleman / hugger with me than with others?).
Eye contact is a good example of flirting (or not) – might need to ask whether it was prolonged, intense, targeted, trying to catch your eye, etc
As a side note, LO also kissed me on the lips one time. He is excitable, like I said. I can smile about it now! But at the time it was torture.
Or if intimate contact was even desired by the limerent. You can ask “was there any intimate contact” and get a yes or no answer. But that just means it didn’t happen. Not why it didn’t happen. I had been alone with LO one time for an hour. Just her and myself in the office. And my instinct actually pulled me further away from her space so as not to send the wrong signal. And that’s not just because of barriers. It’s just not what I wanted from her.
Also, eye contact. For some persons eye contact is something meaningful because they feel āinvadedā or vulnerable when eyes meet (mostly introverts, I guess), for some it doesnāt mean much. So, there might be room for misinterpretation here, too. It would maybe need a specification like Bewitched said like āmore than with othersā or similar.
Of course I understand that any eye contact will be furthering limerence, if itās meant to be meaningful or not. But limerents might fill in the survey differently depending on if they misinterpret eye contact or occasional hugs etc. , I guess, or depending if they are introverts/extroverts themselves etc
I think of physical intimacy as sex. Hugs/touching wouldn’t be intimacy, although depending on how they’re done, they could be suggestive in nature. There’s a basic hug or a pelvis-to-pelvis hug. The latter is suggestive. Or someone touching you on the shoulder versus the lower back. Nor would kissing be physical intimacy, although it would be something happening, obviously. I’m not sure how I’d word it.
Another possible glitch is that you’re answering for a current snapshot in time. So if, for example, you’re NC … then nothing is likely happening. But you’re not answering for what happened in the past, when the LO could have been enabling.
I interpreted āphysical intimacyā like Marcia, with kissing I meant snogging, French kissing, whatever you call it in Englishā¦ something that doesnāt need interpretation if itās intimate or not.
So maybe the expression āphysical intimacy ā really needs an explanation in the test.
I also gave feedback earlier on more clarity on physical intimacy for the questionnaire.
A binary answer is too open to interpretation on what that constitutes.
Although, I guess it’s what the individual person interprets as physical intimacy that defines their LE and not be governed by definitions and rules, because each individuals own acceptable boundaries will differ.
To me full kissing is absolutely physical intimacy.
“To me full kissing is absolutely physical intimacy.”
I guess I look at it in the context of dating. If I went on a date with a guy and he walked me to my car and kissed me at the end of the night, I wouldn’t run into him 6 months later and think to myself: I was physically intimate with him. Now, if I went home with him, I’d be thinking it.
Not that kissing isn’t anything, but “intimate” sounds heavy to me.
Kissing is absolute physical intimacy. But by the time I was out of a toddler I cannot remember my parents kissing me. I was incredibly uncomfortable with kissing our children. Iām the same way with hugs. Momma is the only one I kiss and hug. Both are uncomfortable with anyone else. So either with LO would have totally crossing a line as physical intimacy by my definition. Even holding hands would cross barriers to me. I only shook LOs hand when I met her for the first time in person. But that is a polite courtesy I was taught when meeting someone for the first time man or woman.
Kissing is definitely crossing a line if one or both of you is partnered, but it’s in no way the on the same level as having sex with someone. It doesn’t begin to compare. IMO.
And people who’ve dated a good number of people have probably kissed a good number of people. No, not every one of those people has meant something to them. Or they even remember the moment.
But we’re looking at this through a lens of what helps DrL establish ‘enabling’ levels of intimacy from an LO. So I’m not sure why we’re even debating kissing, as it is miles over those lines! Hugging and other bits like arm touches are contextual. For questionnaire purposes I think the suggestions of ‘compared to other people’ or ‘compared to previously’ are good.
Bewitched – if your LO kissed you on the lips, he is definitely an enabler. And you know it!!
Hi LaR,
āIām not sure why weāre even debating kissing,ā
Because there are limerents who do have a physical affair with their LO. Thatās why I was confused about the meaning of āphysical intimacyā.
Mila,
“Because there are limerents who do have a physical affair with their LO. Thatās why I was confused about the meaning of āphysical intimacyā.”
I agree. Because physical intimacy can mean different things to different people. And maybe the questions needs to be really specific in those areas. Because a kick peck on the lips is different than a full make-out session.
“But weāre looking at this through a lens of what helps DrL establish āenablingā levels of intimacy from an LO.”
That can be a conundrum though. My, for example, language to feel loved with Momma is physical touch. However, I express love for my children, parents, in-laws, etc in every way BUT physical touch. I expressed my adoration for LO with gifts and acts of service. Also my need for physical touch is only desired from Momma. Physical touch is very sacred to me, and not to be thrown around. There’s a couple of the sisters at church that always want a hug from me and I just grin and bear it. If I did any of those things with LO I would have hung myself. Momma wouldn’t have to. There’s lines I knew I would never crossed with her, limerence or not.
Dear LaR,
My LO is an enabler – and Yes I know it! Thank you for acknowledging that I m not going cray-cray, as the kids say. All can be explained away if you don’t know the context but this was highly unusual and never happened again, although other stuff did, arguably much more meaningful. I outlined it in brief to you before, but its a bit too specific to get into again here.
I need to stay ‘posted’ on what this dynamic does to me and this is the major take-home from the survey, I think. If what they do seems enabling to me, then its a more addictive relationship. I’d love to be able to natter openly about all of this over a pint!
Ah well! Someday that miracle might happen.
Dearest Bewitched,
I was being humourous saying it that directly about your LO. There are a lot of shades of grey and plausible deniability in all these LEs.
I remember very well what the other information you told me was. No need to repeat. My jaw dropped open at that one!
Pint and shoot the breeze with you, Imho and Mila, well yes please šŗšŗšŗšŗ. I don’t think it is the most impossible idea ever that at least some of us could make that happen in reality one day.
To Tom:
This discussion puts me into really weird territory. My LO is gay so the sexual attraction only goes one way.
A couple years ago, he said something sweet to me and I impulsively kissed him on the neck. I said “Oh, I shouldn’t have done that!” He said, it’s fine, you can do that.
So I kiss him on the neck every time I see him now.
Last night I gave him a bag of Hershey Grinch Kisses.
Marcia,
“…be very flirtatious, would be complimentary about my appearance, would get touchy/feely every so often”
Yes, those three things are clear ‘ratchets’ or enablers, as they either introduce a physical dimension, or bring the conversation around to more physical matters.
They are much stronger and clearer signs than anything in the questionnaire. There was only the one question there ‘do they flirt?’, but that is more vague and subjective than your examples.
LaR,
“There was only the one question there ādo they flirt?ā, but that is more vague and subjective than your examples.”
Yes, I agree that flirting CAN be subjective. Teasing, for example. That can muddy the waters.
I’ll use an example of what I would consider non-subjective flirting. So that I’m clear. I don’t remember the exact context, but my former LO said something to the effect that he was going to pick out my clothes and they’d be a lot less than what I was currently wearing. That to me is obvious.
Er yep, that one is definitely obvious š
Wow, thatās so obvious, I wouldnāt call it flirting anymore!
Gosh.
On the subject of flirting being subjective and compliments. I always find I have apprehension to paying a woman a compliment this day and age. When my fellow co-workers (then with LO) took my manners I was raised with and chivalry as flirting, how can man even pay a woman a genuine compliment about say her hair or what she is wearing a particular day? As long as it is good taste, obviously. One of the reasons I never (that I can recall) paid a compliment to LO on her appearance. I always tried to steer them towards her being a hard worker or a loving mother. But I don’t think woman have that same “cutting it real close” issue when paying a man a compliment on his appearance.
Mila,
“Wow, thatās so obvious, I wouldnāt call it flirting anymore!”
That was just the tip of the iceburg. But it didn’t mean anything. People say a lot of crap.
The current one didn’t so much as flirt as give me compliments. I’m not going to post exactly what he said because it’s too specific, but it was something along the lines of “You’re really pretty.” That to me is also obvious “That’s a nice color on you ….” Too vague. That’s something a woman would say to me.
Adam,
I quote Marcia
ābut it was something along the lines of āYouāre really pretty.ā That to me is also obvious āThatās a nice color on you ā¦.ā Too vague. Thatās something a woman would say to me.ā
So, the second one would be ok, at least in Marciaās and my book;)
I think, me personally , I can discern a real compliment from a flirty or sleazy remark.
Mila
I was told by mother, when I was getting that age and getting interested in a girl at church, to always compliment a woman on something about her that she can change about herself. Instead of “you’re beautiful” compliment her on her hair, watch she is wearing, or an admirable quality that she exibits.
My question was more about how to know whether a woman would be receptive to a genuine compliment. Or be repulsed by it. I notice really small things about both men and women. No need to worry 99% of the time for me to compliment a man on his suit or shoes or hat. Because I wear similar things, unless he’s extremally homophobic, he will probably notice I dress similar and accept the compliment gracefully.
But if I notice a woman’s shoes, necklace, earring or clothes in general I run the risk of her taking it the wrong way and then I end up the creep, no matter if it was genuine or not. At least when I am alone. If my wife is with me it might play out different.
Hi Adam,
I do understand your wariness about compliments. But everyone loves a genuine compliment that doesnāt have a hidden agenda, and most people can feel the difference. Thereās a difference in tone of voice, manner etc. I think if you genuinely compliment a woman on her earrings in a polite tone of voice without coming physically any closer or staring at her cleavage or giving meaningful glances, she will feel that itās genuine and just thank you.
LaR,
we can all meet at the next š show event šš¦?!
By all means, come and have a look at the š at the š½ show.
But seriously – I want a pint with the three of you (if you’ll let an honorary boy along). It’s my new year’s resolution. I’m not going to even pretend I’ll learn to play the ukelele this year
I took the test, thinking back to the peak of my limerence, and my results are confusing (to me) to say the least.
My LO’s profile turned out to be “neutral”.
Uncertainty – 55%
Contact – 50%
Barriers – 43%
Communication – 30%
Intimacy – 11%
This fellow was basically the most intoxicating human being I’ve ever met. And also (at the time) the most attractive human being I’ve ever met. But my results make it sound like I felt in love with a perfect stranger. Is that a glitch in the test or did I simply imagine a deep connection?
I could never tell what he was thinking. His face was a mask. He seemed so serene most of the time. I had zero control over when and where I saw him. He DID have a serious girlfriend who I was aware of, but he never discussed her or their relationship. She was just … there. I ate lunch with him once, AND his serious girlfriend, AND her fifty million female attendants. Nobody told me to go away. But I only ate lunch with the “royal couple” once, because I didn’t want to intrude on their fairytale. It was like eating lunch with the Tsar and Tsarina of Russia. He never asked me for help. He didn’t require emotional support.
Honestly, it was such a weird connection. It felt like there was this “thing” between us. “Vibes” I think the young people say. Not friendship, because we didn’t actually feel comfortable with each other. And also not love, since he didn’t want to date me. But he would tease me. And he would flash that beautiful smile at me, and he literally smiled at no one. I was the only person who could make him smile. It was like … I dunno … I was the person tasked with keeping the Russian Emperor happy.
He was such a strange one. If I tried to get close to him, he’d find polite or not-so-polite ways to push me away. But then, when I walked my own path, he’d reel me back in e.g. ask questions, start a conversation, behave as if he missed me or imply that he’d miss me if I distanced myself from him permanently. He wanted me close, but not too close. I was only allowed to orbit. It was maddening. š²
In other news, and at the risk of reinforcing disgusting stereotypes that gay men are incurable gossips, here’s some delicious gossip that may make everyone chuckle. A Youtuber named Matthew Hussey has made a YT video called “Limerence: What it is and How to Break the Cycle”. In the comments section, someone left the following remark: “I would love to see you do this with someone who is a neurologist who studies thisā¦ like Dr. Tom Bellamy or someone like him.”
Dr. L, the good news is people are getting your name right. The bad news is people are a tad confused about your occupation/credentials/background. š
Of course, things could always be worse. At least people are associating you with the right section of the body (the brain). At least people aren’t saying: “Oh, Dr. Tom Bellamy? Yes, of course I’ve heard of him! Delightful man! Why, I was just telling my wife the other day Tom Bellamy is my favourite urologist on YouTube!” š¤£š¤£š¤£
Peace, guys. Glad everybody seems to be getting along these days. š
Well, the test is supposed to be assessing how the LO’s behaviour could be reinforcing the limerence. From your story, your LO does sound to be quite neutral. There’s a bit of drawing you back into orbit when you show independence, but not a lot of “active cultivation” if you see what I mean.
That said, the flashing smiles and teasing are definitely important signs that aren’t covered in the quiz. Thanks!
And re. YouTube: neurologist versus neuroscientist is a forgiveable confusion. The vaguely dismissive “or someone like him” is the more egregious blow to my delicate ego š
Scored 51% which would possibly be high, considering that I got over her quite quickly (~ 9 months of strict NC).
Barriers 57
Contact 25
Communication 40
Intimacy 22
Uncertainty 64
Certainly I suspect that my ex-LO is a “limerence magnet”, with mercurial behaviour that is ideal for triggering limerence.
But once the tunnel-vision limerence goggles come off, the red flags wave brightly.
So the score describes the limerent experience as a whole, rather than specifically the LO.
What made my experience more tame than many others here, is that I recognised it early and put steps in place to minimise exposure to LO.
78% – lots of barriers both married and kids and working together 86% scored on barriers. on contact it is 50% because we see eachother regularly and talk to eachother a lot obviously, communication is very high 92%. Also on more personal topics and personal vulnerablilities and problems. So intimacy on 78%. I score only 25% on uncertainty, I guess because we both know weāll choose for our kids and this is not going anywhere eventuallyā¦ however we both canāt stop and all these nice and special moments are emotional wrecking balls. Then the intrusive thoughts. Bad nights with little sleep make it a viscious circle. Yes a clear goal and I know what to do, if only it were that easy
A few rambling thoughts I’ve been having on how difficult it is a task to quantify anything to do with limerence.
Not only are many behaviours very subjective, but as a limerent it’s really hard to quantify them. On the one hand, we’re apt to take anything as a sign that they might like us, but on the other, if they do exhibit enabling behaviour we’re likely to give them the benefit of the doubt because we can’t think ill of them. Is my LO a flirt or is he an outgoing, friendly person? I don’t think it’s possible to draw a line, and if I didn’t feel like this I wouldn’t need to.
I’m thinking back to a few years ago when I had a mild crush on a work colleague. We both most definitely flirted and it most definitely didn’t mean a thing. I didn’t know the term limerence then but I’m confident that there was no danger of limerence in either direction. This is partly because I wasn’t vulnerable to limerence at the time, but mainly because I didn’t feel a close connection with him. I just did the questionnaire about that episode and scored 59%, although it probably doesn’t work to complete it about a non-limerent episode. If I had met current LO in that scenario, would I have become limerent for him? I would certainly have felt a greater connection to him because we are more on the same wavelength. I don’t think I’d have become limerent because I think the Limerent Episode started due to a range of life factors which weren’t applicable then.
For me, the most important factors in the limerent episode starting were unhappiness and loneliness in the first place. There is a question in the questionnaire about whether you’ve got a life partner, but it doesn’t ask you to quantify how happy you are with them, or with the direction of your life in general, or feeling of purpose.
My LO gave me a kiss earlier this week! It happened at work, right in front of several office mates after Iād stopped by her desk to drop off some paperwork š²
It was surprising, because she had abruptly stopped talking to me in late September and this was pretty much the first time weād even talked since then, at least the first time weād talked about anything not strictly work related and had actually made eye contact and smiled at each other. And then without even asking she gave me a kissā¦
I said thank you, put it in my jacket pocket, and then later I unwrapped the little silver foil and ate the chocolate alone at my desk š
I took the quiz – not surprisingly, my LO is highly addictive and enablingā¦ In related news, this week marks the three year š¤Æ anniversary of my disclosure to her, and weāve been in an on-again, off-again emotional affair ever since. She abruptly went limited-contact with me a few months ago (we canāt go NC due to work), said she just canāt do this anymore. Maybe weāre actually done this time. Somehow I kind of doubt it though š¤·āāļø
Anyway, I just wanted to drop by and say hi to some old friends š It was fun to spend some time browsing the comments and it made me happy to see that the discussion here is still as lively as ever! Iāll write again sometime later this week with a bit more of a life update and a few reflections on the factors that lead me to where I am today. Hope everyoneās doing well, and happy holidays to you all ā¤ļø
You strung us along there! Disgusting enabling behaviour from you. ššš
Dear LIS,
Gee whizz that is quite an action-packed post. I hope to goodness this latest intrigue had not set your recovery back, although I imagine it might have done.
When my LO kissed me, I was not yet fully limerent so I can’t imagine how discombobulating this must have been for you. It sounds as though she might also have given you a chocolate as well … Christmas sure does strange things to people. The season of letting bygones be bygones? I’ll stay posted for another update.
Have a great one! Nice to see you back, LIS.
Bx
Bewitched,
I am not sure if LiS’s LO actually kissed him. I think it could be a chocolate brand.
He is maybe playing with us !
Nice to get his update.
A chocolate kiss – Oh that went right over my head ššš.
Thanks for putting me straight, Imho. I am obviously a bit dense this evening.
So no need for discombobulation then, thats wonderful.
(And who doesnt Iove a chocolate?)
Bxx
Bewitched,
You are forgiven because he did lead us on here. sending you a legitimate š
Will share my own š story with you over that pint if I’m invited
“Will share my own š story with you over that pint if Iām invited”
You surely are invited! It’s funny, I have been threatening to have a pint with my sister to tell her my saga for the past 2 years (she wouldn’t judge). But it still hasn’t happened. Can’t get away from our SOs for long enough to spill the tea š«¢š.
If I didn’t have you lot, I would self-combust. I would dearly love to compare notes….
Oh Iād love to hear Imhos stories and have a pint or spill the tea, spill the pint or have tea or compare both with notes (all these interesting expressions!), with you!
He might mean Hershey kisses?
Also there are Italian chocolates called Baci. Not very good chocolate, though.
Still, itās a gesture thatās not entirely without purpose, is itā¦
Indeed, it was a Hershey kiss. Perhaps an act of culinary intimacy, but not physical intimacy.
I had dropped by her desk to give her some signed papers and she just happened to have the chocolate on her desk and she gave it to me, so Iām pretty sure it wasnāt all planned out on her part to send me some sort of signal.
Althoughā¦ she did know I was going to be dropping by sometime that afternoon because sheād asked me to bring those papersā¦ so perhaps it was all planned out and the Hershey kiss was a premeditated act of metaphorical intimacyā¦ Iām sure that any of us here could easily pass an entire evening analyzing something like that to death š¤£
And indeed, I did lead you all onā¦. lo ciento muchisimo š
I wonder what result my LO would get if she took the quiz about me. Probably also a highly addictive enabler? š¬
Hi Lost in Space,
Great to hear from you! I missed you here and wondered how things were going.
āSomehow I kind of doubt it though š¤·āāļøā
Me toošš
How is it going with school for your LO?
Canāt wait for your update!
Hi LiS! I wondered what happened to you!
I took the quiz. My LE is over, but my xLO is a āfriendly LO.ā Iāve been NC for about 2 months, and my only regret is that I donāt feel comfortable approaching xLO for professional advice anymore.
Like limerence, friendship is a tricky thing. My xLO definitely relied on me for emotional support. When I clarified that I was done playing that role (because it meant more to me than to xLO), I think I ended the friendship xLO wanted, too.
Sapiens,
Thanks for the update. How are you in yourself if you don’t mind me asking ?
Any grief or pain ?
At the time you seemed to be able to just turn a switch and immediately was no longer limerent after some lightbulb moment.
I am intrigued how you managed to do that so quickly because many of us cannot.
Disclosing to xLO helped me.
I probably would have let it continue if xLO said, āI feel the same about you.ā But since that is not the case, and I am no more special than a number of other friends of xLO, I was done. Iād rather be no one to xLO than just another friend. If I grieved at all, it was for my self-image: what I believed about myself when I thought xLO wanted me, too.
Thanks Sapiens,
that’s an interesting outcome of disclosing to your LO and also helpful too. I guess it kind of burst the bubble.
I also wonder if I am ‘one of many’ and not so special as I think I am (was) to LO.
“Specialness” validation is maybe a key driver.
If I was told with honesty and no ambiguity that I was one of many, it may help put the limerence out too.
It’s good to read that some men like yourself are emotionally connected and genuinely supportive and not just players in relationships ( friends included).
I wish you the best !
IMHO,
“āSpecialnessā validation is maybe a key driver.”
It definitely is one for me.
“If I was told with honesty and no ambiguity that I was one of many, it may help put the limerence out too.”
But what LO is going to say this? Not if they’re enjoying the attention. You’d have to follow the LO around and watch how they interact with others. Which I always wanted to do with my last big LO. Really. How does he interact with other women? Like a little fly on the wall. š
My xLO greatly enjoyed my attention but didnāt realize I needed to be āspecialā to keep giving it. xLO didnāt say, āyouāre not special.ā I made a risky disclosure, and xLO kept contacting me but didnāt meet me on the same level.
Indeed it’s unlikely to receive a straight message of ‘you are not special ‘ from an LO.
But Sapiens, you appear to have got that clarity after the disclosure none the less. Which is a major blow but I expect ultimately good to get out of limerence.
Marcia,
mini- webcam footage (fly on the wall) of LO may be very insightful ! If only we could stick an MI5 style tracker device onto our LO š¤£ so we can watch the footage from our Limerence HQ !
Sapiens,
” I made a risky disclosure, and xLO kept contacting me but didnāt meet me on the same level.”
I applaud her for telling you the truth. “I don’t feel the same way” would have given me the answer I needed. Not the one I wanted, but the one I needed. However, it was selfish of her to continue contacting you after disclosure. After she was aware how you felt.
I did have a male work friend come onto me once and I said something like, “No because he was married.” I kind of doubt he was limerent but I should have been more direct in just saying I wasn’t interested. “You’re married” makes it sound like the only thing stopping things was the barrier. He never talked to me again so I guess he understood the meaning, regardless ?
Imho,
“mini- webcam footage (fly on the wall) of LO may be very insightful ! If only we could stick an MI5 style tracker device onto our LO š¤£ so we can watch the footage from our Limerence HQ !”
I have a feeling mine would have been filmed chatting up a lot of women. So I still wouldn’t have known if I was “special.”
That would have required:
1.) Me asking very directly (which I never would have done);
2.) My LO having good communications skills (he didn’t; they were awful);
3.) My LO being honest with me and himself.
That’s a really tall order. š
Now, with my last mini-LO … he was pretty direct. You find out some things you want to hear and other things you don’t. Idk. LO’s are Kryptonite. Best to back the hell away.
ā However, it was selfish of her to continue contacting you after disclosure. After she was aware how you felt.ā
Another example of how different we all are – I think it would have hurtful if she suddenly avoided him like hell and stopped contact, like ādonāt want to have anything to do with this creep anymoreā.. she seems to have showed her boundaries clearly, so that might be enough? I would probably ask the limerent if they would prefer it if I wouldnāt contact them and do what they say, but not suddenly ghost them.
She might just have wanted to show that she would still like to be friends if itās possible for him?
Mila,
“She might just have wanted to show that she would still like to be friends if itās possible for him?”
I hadn’t thought of that. I was maybe reading more into the situation. Like maybe she was flirting with him after the disclosure. That would be selfish to do.
I don’t know the context, though. Did they discuss remaining friends? Sometimes it can feel awkward after one person discloses. Sometimes the other person may not want to hear the disclosure. I’ve written about a male friend who disclosed recently, and we’re still friends but not as close. And I can’t help but feel the friendship was closer before because his motive wasn’t entirely friendship, which feels a little duplicitous. The other person could feel that way. Any number of things are possible.
Marcia,
exactly. Maybe his motive wasnāt friendship, but also maybe he just didnāt want you feel stalked or felt a bit awkward after his disclosure and thatās why itās not that close anymore.
As you say, any number of things are possible, and I could almost bet that he doesnāt know the reason himself . .
Mila,
“Maybe his motive wasnāt friendship, but also maybe he just didnāt want you feel stalked or felt a bit awkward after his disclosure and thatās why itās not that close anymore.”
I would suspect it’s because I didn’t return his romantic feelings and he’s moved his energy to finding someone who does. (To be clear, he is single so this wasn’t a situation where disclosure was tricky because one or both parties was partnered.)
Hi Marcia,
āI would suspect itās because I didnāt return his romantic feelings and heās moved his energy to finding someone who does.ā
I see. Itās very possible and also a bit understandable? Iām not familiar with the story with this guy, actually, sorry. Would you have liked it better if he would have told you straightforward that heās moving on because he wasnāt looking for friendship?
I have a freaking headache today.
I hope I havenāt missed any other posts to me , but it could very well be, sorry if that is the case..
I meant Marcia, not some Marcos. Sorry
Mila,
“Would you have liked it better if he would have told you straightforward that heās moving on because he wasnāt looking for friendship?”
No. I don’t really want to revisit that conversation. We’re still friends but it’s not the same.
Of late, I feel like he’s needling me a little, trying to make me jealous. I feel like I’m being manipulated. I’m seeing a side of him I don’t like and it’s make me pull back. He’s not the person I thought he was. Not to mention his need for female validation with all these female friends. I don’t trust it.
“I have a freaking headache today.”
Hope you’re feeling better.
Hi Marcia,
if he makes you uncomfortable and the friendship doesnāt bring you any joy itās for sure your right to pull back and distance yourself a bit
My headache is better but something now in my throatšdonāt really want to get ill now on Christmas.
I hope you are fine though and wish you happy holidays!
Mila,
“if he makes you uncomfortable and the friendship doesnāt bring you any joy itās for sure your right to pull back and distance yourself a bit”
He’s not so much making me uncomfortable as I feel like he’s f**king me with me a little bit, and I don’t like it. I think the friendship is over. I can feel it. If I run into him, it’ll be fine. We can be friendly, but I don’t think I want to spend one-on-one time with him anymore. I don’t like the way he’s handled things and there’s something about him having all these women friends circling him that’s giving me the ick. (I think he enjoys/encourages playing the ambiguous, are-we-more-than-friends game with some of them. I guess I don’t understand the need for orbiters.)
“My headache is better but something now in my throatšdonāt really want to get ill now on Christmas.”
Hope you don’t get sick right before the holidays.
Hi Marcia,
It really sounds as if this friendship is over for you, you donāt seem to even like this guy any more, so itās probably best to let it all fade out. Better to spend time with people whose company you really enjoy!
I go to bed now, trying to sleep any viruses away..
Good night!
Re: Specialness and validation, this was one of most important drivers of my LE as well.
Its like the ‘do they like me too?’ part of the pair-bonding process had gone rogue and re-played itself over and over and over again. Unfortunately, I got plenty evidence that he did like me too (or did I imagine it?).
It makes sense that the best medicine for getting over LO was convincing myself that I wasn’t special and that he was an inveterate chaser of random females. I guess that this is why disclosure with non-reciprocation is so effective at killing limerence. And conversely why uncertainty is such as powerful driver of limerence.
Re: covert ops to see whether he was flirting as hard with everyone else as he was with me, well, I also needed to convince myself that I’d never get to the truth about that because I’ll never know the truth. It unknowable. And the truth has a way of changing, especially if you don’t actually know LO very well.
This is why I feel sorry for people who are unlucky enough to fall for someone who they see on a daily basis for years, I think its harder to convince yourself of subjective truths when there is more objective evidence. Though maybe the allure might wear off through that exposure, eventually.
I’m rambling now š
Yeah, I had a similar experience.
There was no question that my LO had an interest in me.. it was definitely not my imagination, and could not be interpreted innocently.
What I didn’t know at the time, was that to her, it was “nothing special”.
I was unaware at the time, but she was apparently “playing” at least two other dudes from work (plus who knows how many outside work!), simultaneously.. only one of whom was single!
I recognised early that I was experiencing limerence (before I even knew of the term), so I’d studiously avoided checking her social media. But when I felt confident that I could take a look without temptation, a quick peek confirmed everything I needed to know.
She even boasted about having another guy, a married man, “wrapped around her finger”.
That, and NC, helped me get over her quickly without having to go through the discomfort of disclosure.
“I also needed to convince myself that Iād never get to the truth about that because Iāll never know the truth. ”
I think it can be tricky because some people are very flirtatious and/or friendly and some like to have orbiters. (I’m talking generally here. Not about a specific LO.)
Personally, I don’t take flirtation seriously at all anymore (a lesson I learned from my LO, and of course one I never wanted to learn). Short of someone saying something (disclosure) or doing something (making an obvious physical move) … I don’t try to guess anymore. And even disclosure … my first instinct is to say to them, “Prove it.” Because people say a lot of things. š
āBecause people say a lot of things. šā
So true! People DO say a lot of things without matching actions. Truths of beautiful and ugly words can be PROVEN only by corresponding actions of speakers, be them LOs or Limerents.
Snow,
“People DO say a lot of things without matching actions. ”
The irony is that the people who do follow up their words with actions, who are direct, etc. …. are RARELY the people you want that behavior/info from. It’s the way of the world. š “I could have gone to my grave never hearing you say those words.” š
Marcia,
āI could have gone to my grave never hearing you say those words.ā š
Are you quoting someone here? Under what circumstance? From a movie?
Iām from an action/service based, few/no word culture, so really know what youāre saying here. Words and images inspire oneās imaginations/envisions, not actions alone, not even intimate, physical ones.
But from LwL, I get a sense that people (both LOs and Limmies) believed what they heard (or wished to hear) so muchā¦ the way too much. Even during my LE, I habitually doubted āsweetā words that ET rarely uttered.
(I donāt want to rant here about the Western overrated individuality /individualism that sometime inflates oneās ego in one way and breeds insecurity on the other hand, which then possibly leads one to seek validations a lot of time, especially from LOs)
In the COO system, we always suspected words alone, particularly complimentary/flattery ones. We believed that behind most complimentary/flattery there were some selfish goals of speakers; our eyes observed the speakersā behaviors like hawks š¦ ā¦
I think a healthy connection/friendship/relationship needs both words and actions combined and integrated ā in the order of actions following words. I distrust, disrespect and despise those āthunders ā”ļøwithout raindrops āļøā ā an COO idiom.
Snow,
“Are you quoting someone here? Under what circumstance? From a movie?”
No, I was quoting myself. As a joke. As someone who’s been disclosed to by a male friend in the last few months. On a serious note, I did not particularly want to hear the disclosure. It was a very uncomfortable conversation. We got through it, but people never seem to consider that the other person might not want to hear their disclosure.
Marcia,
āNo, I was quoting myself. As a joke. As someone whoās been disclosed to by a male friend in the last few months.ā
I see that I seem to have misunderstood your own quote; You were saying that it would be okay or even better if your male friend did not disclose to you (because you were not into him). I thought your quotes meant you were waiting too long (you were about entering graveyard) from your xLO or LO-lit or new LO to express their LE affections for you. Am I right now? š§
āOn a serious note, I did not particularly want to hear the disclosure. It was a very uncomfortable conversation. ā
Well, from our previous conversations, you seemed to want available men to clearly express their intentions in Seemingly a friendship with you, among which there ought to be some that donāt click with you. Itās a big validation for your attractiveness whether you needed/wanted it or not, so why feeling upset instead of being flattered and empathetic when they disclose ā
āWe got through it, but people never seem to consider that the other person might not want to hear their disclosure.ā
WOW, thatās a bit of generalization ā āpeople never seem to considerā¦ā. Many people do consider how their personal friends would feel about their amorous disclosure. When theyāre not sure of other sideās feelings or not in the same wavelength to accurately sense other sideās emotions, the only choice left for them is to try their luck ā disclose and seek a clear answer. Whatās so wrong/odd about itā
After all, their disclosure is not something negative, but something many others have sought in vain. I know itās āuncomfortableā/āsorrowfulā to turn them down, but I canāt think of any other more natural/gentle ways for them to let you know their feelings. Why not try to sympathize them? š¤
In the past I turned down a lot of ādisclosuresā, genuinely and warmly thanked them but let them know itās not possible. I clearly knew most of them would walk away, a platonic friendship afterward was impossible for them ( but possible for me); itās sad but I understood and never expected to continue any form of friendship with them, except a couple of rare limerents types who has remained as true, time-tested friends. š§”
I ear-dropped your chat with Mila about this āaffectionateā male friend, who sounds like undeserving your friendship. Leave alone those who seek female/male validation or try to make you jealous of other womenā¦. They have such a ālowā/trivial mind and do not deserve your time and energy for a mediocre friendship ā a cent of my opinion. š
āThe irony is that the people who do follow up their words with actions, who are direct, etc. ā¦. are RARELY the people you want that behavior/info from. Itās the way of the world. šā
I disagree with such a statement, it might be the way of the majority world even 95-99% of time, but not other 5~1%! If I had āwanted that behavior/info fromā people who were incapable of following their words, then there would be something Seriously WRONG with MEā¼ļø ā¦.
I know myself who can and have always followed my words/oaths, but was/is RAREly direct. By my adversity-filled upbringing and the COOās red, scary culture, Iāve been shy and private, dislike/hate to openly express or verbally reveal my emotions in public, even to LO/SO, except on one-to-one basis. Moreover, I enjoy the art of subtlety through rich forms of literature and poetry, which tend to arose and inspire oneās imaginations š (when one is not depressedš )ā¦.
Marcia,
“You were saying that it would be okay or even better if your male friend did not disclose to you (because you were not into him). I thought your quotes meant you were waiting too long (you were about entering graveyard) from your xLO or LO-lit or new LO to express their LE affections for you. Am I right now? š§”
Yes. Now, LO-lite’s disclosure was one of the hottest moments of my life. I’m hoping I’ll be able to top it with someone else.
“Well, from our previous conversations, you seemed to want available men to clearly express their intentions in Seemingly a friendship with you, among which there ought to be some that donāt click with you.”
If they’re interested in romance, make that clear right away. Don’t approach it as a friendship and then, later, try to make it a romance.
” Itās a big validation for your attractiveness whether you needed/wanted it or not, so why feeling upset instead of being flattered and empathetic when they disclose ā”
No. I’m not offended or anything like that, but I’m not flattered.
” When theyāre not sure of other sideās feelings or not in the same wavelength to accurately sense other sideās emotions, the only choice left for them is to try their luck ā disclose and seek a clear answer. Whatās so wrong/odd about itā”
As I wrote, ask the person out. Make it clear it’s a date. Then we’re both on the same page that a possible romance is on the table. I know what the intentions are. No ambiguity. No need for some big, awkward disclosure months later. Now, I know you will disagree with me because you like friendship first. I’m am NOT talking about getting physical right away. I am talking about both sides knowing there’s a romantic possibility and then getting to know each other.
“I know itās āuncomfortableā/āsorrowfulā to turn them down, but I canāt think of any other more natural/gentle ways for them to let you know their feelings. Why not try to sympathize them? š¤”
Right. I’ve been put in a position I didn’t want to be put in. That could have been nipped in the bud earlier if their intentions were made clear. It’s a lot easier to turn someone down for a date who you recently met than someone you’ve become close with.
” I clearly knew most of them would walk away, a platonic friendship afterward was impossible for them ( but possible for me); itās sad but I understood and never expected to continue any form of friendship with them”
That’s been my experience as well. But with this friendship, we talked about still being friends. I broached the topic myself. I would have backed off if that’s what he wanted.
“I ear-dropped your chat with Mila about this āaffectionateā male friend, who sounds like undeserving your friendship. Leave alone those who seek female/male validation or try to make you jealous of other womenā¦. ”
Yes. I’m slowly seeing him for who he is. He presented himself much differently when we first became friends. I’m disappointed in who I’m discovering he is.
Ha! That was meant for Snow. š
Marcia,
āYes. Now, LO-liteās disclosure was one of the hottest moments of my life. Iām hoping Iāll be able to top it with someone else.ā
Youāre a bit of biased here, because you glimmered at LO-Lite (even if not at level 10) but not at your ādisclosed friendā. I hope youāll meet some other men soon who you wish/like to ātop withā a mutual attraction, which is rarely rare āļø as you said.
āIf theyāre interested in romance, make that clear right away. Donāt approach it as a friendship and then, later, try to make it a romance.ā
I think several lwlers have discussed about this: many men (also some women) donāt feel romantically attracted to someone immediately, unlike you and me (who knows Yes or No in a couple of seconds). Their romantic feelings are developed as they get to know the other side gradually; why canāt you accept such situationsāļø
āNo. Iām not offended or anything like that, but Iām not flattered.ā
If oneās romantic feelings come after knowing you for a while, donāt you think thatās the validation for your personality/characters? or you simply donāt care about the personality attraction, donāt want your personality to be associated with your sexiness as a whole packageā
āAs I wrote, ask the person out. Make it clear itās a date. Then weāre both on the same page that a possible romance is on the table. ā
We discussed this before. I did/do like the word ādateā while ānaturallyā interacting with men (not from dating apps), because the definition adds certain pressure and expectations. I did not even use word āfriendshipā to go out with people (men or women) I met shortly/for a while. Why so many definitions that create expectations or compel interactive restrictions, varied also in cultures? On these domains, I consider(ed) myself a āsocial normābreaker, as I mentioned before; I chose to be an āoutsiderā with my foreignerās status. š
Life is an adventure, and I loosen myself a bit from time to time especially while traveling alone. Have you gone for a cup of coffee or lunch with stranger(s) while in a new place/country? If I was alone, I was sometimes invited to tag along some other tourists or to date locals; I either purposefully got lost or said Yes to date invites but never showed up š.
āI know what the intentions are. No ambiguity. No need for some big, awkward disclosure months later. ā
You donāt think that always wanting to know everything (intention, steps of process, possible results) in advance is a form of ācontrollingā or much less spontaneous/adventurous? A unexpected disclosure is awkward for them not us, could we just treat it as a lifeās surprise (if not flattery)? Flawed or not, favored or disliked, the nature of romantic disclosure is same regardless from whom, right? Can we give it a bit understanding, sympathy or Agape? āøļø
āNow, I know you will disagree with me because you like friendship first.ā
At workplace, cordial colleagueship or friendship has to be first; otherwise, itās very awkward for both sides due to professional duties. I think to get a friendship first actually makes the infatuated side feel a lot less awkward; one can get to know the other side gradually and may update his/her early romantic feelings – weaken or strengthen it, depending on their compatibilities.
Also during a friendship phrase, one can detect whether the other side could possibly reciprocate his/her romantic feelings, so to decide whether to advance of backup. Of course, if itās a non-limerent type or inflated with a huge ego, s/he canāt accurately sense the other sideās emotional wavelength.
I met a lot of clueless, insensible men who couldnāt pick up either physical or verbal cues from me, or their ego was just huge, delusional-convinced that they could change my mind! š (didnāt I meet some āghostā here not long agoā¦ š§)
āIām am NOT talking about getting physical right away. I am talking about both sides knowing thereās a romantic possibility and then getting to know each other.ā
Iād do other way around, even if I already have romantic feelings before friendship. No emotional/mental familiarity/closeness, NO physical intimacyāļøIām very clear weāre opposite in this arenaā¦ Novelty/mysteriousness had no appeal even when I was much youngerā¦
My body is the only house of my soul, it canāt be āwalked/raided throughā like a āamorous marketā, especially by strangers, a 10 or notā¼ļø At HE workplaces in this highly liberal city, no one touch othersā hands, no hugs or cheek fluffy kisses (except among females or big holidays).
āRight. Iāve been put in a position I didnāt want to be put in. That could have been nipped in the bud earlier if their intentions were made clear. Itās a lot easier to turn someone down for a date who you recently met than someone youāve become close with.ā
Oh, poor you! š« But life never goes as we have expected or planned; mentally preparing for unexpected/worst is one Stoic discipline Iām practicing almost everydayā¦ Itās sometimes demoralizing to speculate possible darkness in oneās personal life, but itās an effective psychological trick ā you get a gratification at the end of the day/week when you are not visited or engulfed by those possible ādarknessāāļøThen anything else happened becomes a candle light or even the exhilarating sunshineā¦ āļø
Discontent for oneās life in any arena ALWAYS comes from wanting/desiring more and from not preparing for possible worsts.
āThatās been my experience as well. But with this friendship, we talked about still being friends. I broached the topic myself. I would have backed off if thatās what he wanted.ā
I can only guess that either he didn’t have romantic feelings earlier, or he wanted to change your lukewarm feelings for him as a friend; he was hoping to cultivate a glimmer /a romantic feeling in you through friendship interactions. That could happen to a lot of men, as it is said or happened as I witnessed firsthandā¦.
āYes. Iām slowly seeing him for who he is. He presented himself much differently when we first became friends. Iām disappointed in who Iām discovering he is.ā
Of course, itās damn disappointing! But this case backups my preference ā getting to know them first as a realistic person maximumly, then kindle/fan friendship or that already existed romantic attraction, so to avoid/reduce possible, hurtful/regrettable breakups down the road.
Since last unknown cold/fever my Mom got during the Thanksgiving, her health seems to be declining a bit faster, which worries me a bit. I canāt tell whether my tough time, like MJ, is approachingā¦ š.
The school is done, and Iām grinding my teeth for the final grading. I will be making individual dishes and hot pot again for the family and relatives on different days of this week.
What plans for the holiday have you got? š
Snow,
“I can only guess that either he didnāt have romantic feelings earlier, or he wanted to change your lukewarm feelings for him as a friend; he was hoping to cultivate a glimmer /a romantic feeling in you through friendship interactions.”
This is the only thing I’ll comment on. I feel like we’re going back and forth with the other stuff and it’s a lot of me explaining and then re-explaining what I meant. And we’re not going to agree on this, anyway.
But, yes, this is what it felt like. That he sensed, deep down, I wasn’t interested and thought if he hung around long enough, I might change my mind. That’s how it’s always felt with previous guy friends who went the friendship route first. There’s something passive about it. Whereas there’s something brave about someone who owns their sexual/romantic feelings and makes them clear. So someone going the friendship route won’t ever resonate with me. But that’s me. I realize that’s not how everyone feels.
“The school is done, and Iām grinding my teeth for the final grading.”
When are the grades due?
“I will be making individual dishes and hot pot again for the family and relatives on different days of this week.”
I’m still waiting for my leftovers. It’s been a month. š
“What plans for the holiday have you got? š”
I’m going to that friend’s house again.
Marcia,
āI feel like weāre going back and forth with the other stuff and itās a lot of me explaining and then re-explaining what I meant. And weāre not going to agree on this, anyway.ā
Sorry that you felt that you had to explain and re-explain to me, while each time I understood well your points but largely disagreed, because from my perspective, I saw something āfatalisticā in that kind of approach to relationshipā¦. Youāre quite right that weāre not going to agree on this ever, and I was/am not trying to change youāļø
I often rambled repeatedly with you or others just to clear up my own head, re-examining where I have evolved to from day to day, or week to weekā¦. A human mind never stands still, and one does NOT have identity without interacting with others in the society/a community.
Youāre one āINFP mirrorā I could look into and say, āAh, here is something I can resonateā¦ here is something I canāt relate at allā¦ here is something I lackā¦ here is some I want to get rid ofā¦ here is something I wish I could have/obtainā¦. ā. Then with another type of mirror, eg. INFJ, I can repeat the same set of statements on different/same mattersā¦
We could show/see different aspects of our personality to/in different human āmirrorsāā¦. To really know Oneself, as well as some parts of the āhuman mirrorā, verbal communications or physical interactions with others are Essentialā¼ļø
āThatās how itās always felt with previous guy friends who went the friendship route first. ā
Thatās typical/very common in macho cultures, even in COO where men and women are supposedly equal. Itās the most accepted/taken for granted that men should/needs to āchaseā women in romance. A romantic chase could be in the form of bold/tactless pursuit directly or in the friendship route first.
āThereās something passive about it. Whereas thereās something brave about someone who owns their sexual/romantic feelings and makes them clear. ā
Being brave to own sexual/romantic feelings is a very modern concept, even in America, let alone in other parts of the world.
āSo someone going the friendship route wonāt ever resonate with me. But thatās me. I realize thatās not how everyone feels.ā
Youāre not alone or perhaps not even a minority to hold this stand in this culture.
āWhen are the grades due?ā
Itās due on 26th; but remember Iām the first minute personāI had a nap last evening after posting to you and got up around 2am and in one shot, 5 hours, I finished all my grading. I never went back to sleep this morning.
āIām still waiting for my leftovers. Itās been a month. šā
I never received your invite with the address, how could I deliver my beautiful, tasty leftovers from Thanksgivingāļø
āIām going to that friendās house again.ā
That sounds really exciting! Wish you a great time there againāļø
Snow,
“Itās the most accepted/taken for granted that men should/needs to āchaseā women in romance. ”
I have no problem with this. š
“A romantic chase could be in the form of bold/tactless pursuit directly or in the friendship route first.”
I don’t see the friendship-first route as chasing. It’s more like a plot twist about 40% into the book that you read that makes you want to throw the book across the room. “C’mon! Is that all this was?” š
“Youāre not alone or perhaps not even a minority to hold this stand in this culture.”
I never claimed to be unique on this.
“Itās due on 26th; but remember Iām the first minute personāI had a nap last evening after posting to you and got up around 2am and in one shot, 5 hours, I finished all my grading. I never went back to sleep this morning.”
That’s great! You’re all done.
“I never received your invite with the address, how could I deliver my beautiful, tasty leftovers from Thanksgivingāļø”
True dat. š
“That sounds really exciting!”
“Exciting” is probably a strong word. It’ll be pleasant enough. But it was nice to be invited.
Marcia,
[Itās the most accepted/taken for granted that men should/need to āchaseā women in romance. ā]
āI have no problem with this. šā
I have a lot of problems with it! š As I said before, I HATE to be chased like a SO ā Sexy Objectā¼ļø (Gracefully hint to me amorous interests is fine). Those rough/uncouth Macho men just want to hunt woman/girl as a sexy fawn, once they get her, their eyes move on for the next target, or they fight/compete with same slutty āfawnsāā¦ Check this around the whole globeāļø
Thatās probably (just guessing) what your LO-lite did, since he said you were an āentertainmentā and did not contact you again, even as an intimate friend š In my eyes, heās a f*k* liar, JERK! But youāve bought, hung on his āhotā lies, and then suffered to this dayā¦. š
āI donāt see the friendship-first route as chasing. Itās more like a plot twist about 40% into the book that you read that makes you want to throw the book across the room. āCāmon! Is that all this was?ā šā
Itās a subtle form of chasing, but still chasingāļø At least, theyāre more subtle, cultured (doesnāt mean less vigor), trying to make a friendship for the both sides, treating you as an equal (not a SO)ā¦. If theyāre sensitive enough to detect there arenāt enough romantic interests on yourself, they could back up little and still remain as your good friend! Of course, the challenge lies in whether they can tame or cool down their romantic fever once they backup a little and are wise enough to remain an authentic friend to you, nearby (very difficult) or in long-distance (easier).
I said last night thereād be NO common ground ever for you and me to agree on my more honored friendship, why did you circle back to the topic again? š
āI never claimed to be unique on this.ā
Iāve seen a of lot women on both world this way either in street, at work, and in moviesā¦ despite American ones so loudly and proudly claim theyāre liberal, equal-minded feminists, 1st or 2nd generation. I know Iām an odd egg, a lone wolf, an Eastern Amazon warrior, despite I come from a very conservative, Macho culture in the Eastā¦.
āThatās great! Youāre all done.ā
Yes, all doneāļøI still have my private tutorings going on, but the work is less demanding without quizzes and exams. Iāve kept bumping into young, attractive, smiling male strangers in our perpetually-changing rental-classrooms, buildings, elevatorsā¦ making my trivial life interesting, wondrous, or flatteringā¦ š
āāExcitingā is probably a strong word. Itāll be pleasant enough. But it was nice to be invited.ā
By the talks of LwL town, I seem to be a highly excitable ghost š» , which trait is certainly inherited from my Granny and Dad. We easily got excited by ANYTHING, any place, anyone new, big or small, rare or habitual. No two events could ever be the same even if they take place in the exactly time, location, and with the same set of people ā one can always look at an OLD from a new/curious angleā¦. Thatās what happened with all my pupils, from whom Iāve discovered something new in our every single sessions. They range from 6-54 yrs old.
Life is a natural learning for me everydayā¦ Iām grateful for those who have purposefully or unintentionally made my days more fulfilling, brighter or warmer, especially in such cold winter daysā¦ š
Snow,
“Thatās probably (just guessing) what your LO-lite did, since he said you were an āentertainmentā and did not contact you again”
That’s not what happened. I ended things. (Yes, I did sense it was casual on his end.) And now he avoids me completely at work. I’d hoped we could at least be civil.
“In my eyes, heās a f*k* liar, JERK! But youāve bought, hung on his āhotā lies, and then suffered to this dayā¦. š”
We never discussed our expectations for what was going on between us. He didn’t lie.
“Itās a subtle form of chasing, but still chasingāļø”
Too subtle in my opinion, but I’ll drop it because we aren’t going to agree. When it comes to men, I’m not into “cultured.” In friendship it’s fine, but not romance.
“I said last night thereād be NO common ground ever for you and me to agree on my more honored friendship, why did you circle back to the topic again? š”
Yes, but you still went on for 8 paragraphs before coming to that conclusion. š I was simply responding to a few of your statements.
“Iāve seen a of lot women on both world this way either in street, at work, and in moviesā¦ despite American ones so loudly and proudly claim theyāre liberal, equal-minded feminists”
I am in everything but sex/romance. Then the rules all change. It’s a different playing field. š
“Iāve kept bumping into young, attractive, smiling male strangers in our perpetually-changing rental-classrooms, buildings, elevatorsā¦ making my trivial life interesting, wondrous, or flatteringā¦ š”
Lucky you! š I never meet guys I want to talk to or even have a nice moment with.
“By the talks of LwL town, I seem to be a highly excitable ghost š» ”
I’ve really come to look at limerence as an addiction in my particular case, so it takes a lot to get me excited.
“Life is a natural learning for me everydayā¦ ”
This I agree with. But I would use the word “excited” for very special occurrences.
Marcia,
āThatās not what happened. I ended things. (Yes, I did sense it was casual on his end.) And now he avoids me completely at work. Iād hoped we could at least be civil.ā
I solute you for ending this matter, itās only a dead end waiting for you. You made a right decision š š
āWe never discussed our expectations for what was going on between us. He didnāt lie.ā
You just said that you sensed it was casual on his end, and he did say that itās (or youāre) an āentertainmentā (I might have punched his face for saying that! š”). Now, why do you believe āhe didnāt lieā? Or is it just your wishful thinking so as not to feel too used afterwardsā¦ā
āWhen it comes to men, Iām not into ācultured.ā In friendship itās fine, but not romance.ā
When it comes to both men and women, Iām very much into āculturedā, in friendship or romance. I donāt have much time left on earth to waste with uncouth thus boring people. I want to make fun, quality time for myself and those whom I care for.
āYes, but you still went on for 8 paragraphs before coming to that conclusion. š I was simply responding to a few of your statements.ā
I need to ramble, too, from time to timeā¦as I said, just to re-examine where I am, or how much Iāve evolved, or what is still important and dear to me. Giving and taking genuine Friendship despite all external barriers or superficial considerations are very gratifying and fulfilling for meā¦
āI am in everything but sex/romance. Then the rules all change. Itās a different playing field. šā
I donāt consider sex/romance is a playing field, itās emotional, mental, spiritual, which could be fun but also possibly deadly if treated unwisely. Just look at some heart-wrenching limerence cases here! š¢
So you would like to be a traditional sexy fawn, but not a might Tigress who calls shot by the Nature, or an irresistible Aphrodite who shouts š to her chosen lover/LO/BPā You sound like a highly attractive woman, then why passively following some wild āmachoā manās lead? Why not sensually and sexually tango equally with your chosen man in the living and bed roomā
āLucky you! š I never meet guys I want to talk to or even have a nice moment with.ā
I didnāt particularly want/intend to talk with any of them (I NEVER strike a chat first in public, except with women). All I did was to slightly smile at ease. Then some just chatted me up while I was only eager to find a new rental space for tutoring… Gosh, there are so many young, feminine, good looking men hereā¦ š
āIāve really come to look at limerence as an addiction in my particular case, so it takes a lot to get me excited.ā
Based on what I read here, I know Iāve never had any kind of addictions, substance or behavioral. So I donāt know how you define your case as an addiction. When do you think you began to have/develop it? Any particular incidents ignited it? How many LEs have you had? Whatās the longest period you had a non-LE relationship/romance? š§
āThis I agree with. But I would use the word āexcitedā for very special occurrences.ā
My expectations for anything in life is low to begin with. With the recent Stoicism studies, I have all kinds of worsts prepared (for situations relevant in my reality), dangling on the back burners of my mind. So anything (besides those worsts) occurred became good enough; some āunexpectedā or the opposite of a worst just made me so gratified and profoundly happy.ā¦ š Psychological tricks do workā¼ļø
The size of desires and expectations decides/controls degrees of oneās true contentment, of oneās moods, and of oneās fulfillment.
Snow,
“You made a right decision š š”
I regret it. But it is what it is. I’m not going to do anything else.
“You just said that you sensed it was casual on his end, and he did say that itās (or youāre) an āentertainmentā”
Nobody would say those exact words. But it was implied things were casual.
“Now, why do you believe āhe didnāt lieā? ”
I don’t understand how you think he lied to me. We agreed to meet up. There was nothing discussed beyond that.
“When it comes to both men and women, Iām very much into āculturedā, in friendship or romance. ”
I just think, when it comes to sex and romance, there has to be something basic and earthy and gut-level about it.
“So you would like to be a traditional sexy fawn, but not a might Tigress who calls shot by the Nature, or an irresistible Aphrodite who shouts š to her chosen lover/LO/BPā”
I have gone after men before, but I prefer the dynamic the other way around.
” You sound like a highly attractive woman, then why passively following some wild āmachoā manās lead? ”
I’m ok with macho. š
“Why not sensually and sexually tango equally with your chosen man in the living and bed roomā”
I’m only talking about the bedroom. Yes, it’s a tango (like you always say :)) but I like the guy to take the lead. At least initially.
“I NEVER strike a chat first in public, except with women.}
I do. Even men. I was talking to some guy in Walmart today. Is it just me or do some people need to take a class before they’re allowed to use the self check-out? š Anyway, I’ll chat with them but I’m not hitting on them and I don’t assume (unless it’s painfully obvious) they’re hitting on me. 99% of the time, I’m just making conversation.
“Gosh, there are so many young, feminine, good looking men hereā¦ š”
They’re all yours. š
“When do you think you began to have/develop it? ”
I mean the feelings are like an addiction. It’s probably genetic.
“How many LEs have you had?”
Maybe 8 to 9, including one as a senior in high school. I can’t really go back farther than that. The crushes all kind of blur.
“My expectations for anything in life is low to begin with. ”
As a general rule, mine are, too. I’m not really expecting anything from this dinner. Just a pleasant time.
Marcia,
āI regret it. But it is what it is. Iām not going to do anything else.ā
You mean you would prefer to have kept it going, becoming a secret āthird leg/Small Threeā of a partnered man, and possible feeling āhappierā than now? š§
āNobody would say those exact words. But it was implied things were casual.ā
Well, even just a subtle implication of such degrading another human heart is plenty Cruel, although āa slaveā might not feel so towards her masterā¦
āI donāt understand how you think he lied to me. We agreed to meet up. There was nothing discussed beyond that.ā
You said his email to you is the hottest thing youāve received. What made his words a truth but not a lie, while any man in theory could utter them to get into your skirtā If your recent male friend wrote it, you would not feel it was hot at all. Moreover, the expression of his ādeep feelingsā made you feel awkward. Hot or cold is relative based on our emotions ā Einsteinās relativism.
āI just think, when it comes to sex and romance, there has to be something basic and earthy and gut-level about it.ā
Who says that cultured men and women have lost their ābasic and earthy and gut-levelā pair-bonding instinct/driveāļø
āI have gone after men before, but I prefer the dynamic the other way around.ā
I did not say to go after men, but to get them to go after you. an Aphrodite never begs/chases any men, like nervous fawn!
āIām ok with macho. šā
You should have gone to a macho culture to live for at least 6 months, then Iād like to hear whether you are still okay with that Macho men in any field.
āIām only talking about the bedroom. Yes, itās a tango (like you always say :)) but I like the guy to take the lead. At least initially.ā
I would not enter anyoneās bedroom without feeling connected well first in their living roomāļøA beautiful and gratifying tango has no lead, but leading and following in varied, different steps based on ever changing music notes/temposā¦
[āGosh, there are so many young, feminine, good looking men hereā¦ šāā
āTheyāre all yours. šā
Iām relieved to hear that I could introduce my future BP to you. š Otherwise, Iād be worried that youād try to tango with his legsā¦
āI mean the feelings are like an addiction. Itās probably genetic.ā
Itās really hard to believe that behavioral addiction could be genetic. Has DrL talked about the possibility? Or believing its possible genetic component would help you not to fight it?
āMaybe 8 to 9, including one as a senior in high school. I canāt really go back farther than that. The crushes all kind of blur.ā
Thatās quite a lot. Have you got a chance to analyze possible causes for each of them, by yourself or with your therapist? Has your cptsd have anything to do with themā
āAs a general rule, mine are, too. Iām not really expecting anything from this dinner. Just a pleasant time.ā
The anticipation of going to a holiday party and possibly meet new acquaintances without any expectation would already make me more excitedā¦ My default expectation is not to get an invitation.
Snow,
“You mean you would prefer to have kept it going, becoming a secret āthird leg/Small Threeā of a partnered man, and possible feeling āhappierā than now? š§”
I have mixed feelings about it. That might be the last time I hook with an LO. Before him, it was about 20 years ago.
“Well, even just a subtle implication of such degrading another human heart is plenty Cruel, although āa slaveā might not feel so towards her masterā¦”
I’m not sure what you mean. If you hook up with someone who you know has a partner, you’re willingly rolling the dice.
“You said his email to you is the hottest thing youāve received.”
One of the hottest, yes.
“What made his words a truth but not a lie, while any man in theory could utter them to get into your skirtā”
I think what he wrote was true. And I wasn’t expecting it. And I was floored. I’m not saying it was particularly poetic. Just direct.
” If your recent male friend wrote it, you would not feel it was hot at all. ”
The message from LO-lite was more an expression of interest. (I’m being vague but can’t write the exact words.) My male friend’s conversation was an expression of feelings. And I would never go that route. To express feelings when you don’t even know if the other person sees you in a sexual/romantic light. It’s too heavy. Feelings are something I would discuss once I knew the other person was interested and we began dating and a relationship was starting or had developed. My male friend would never have sent a message like LO-lite. They’re very different people.
“Who says that cultured men and women have lost their ābasic and earthy and gut-levelā pair-bonding instinct/driveāļø”
Idk. My male friend is cultured and seems a bit cut off from the sexual side of himself or sexual implications or innuendo.
“I did not say to go after men, but to get them to go after you. an Aphrodite never begs/chases any men, like nervous fawn!”
Sometimes I think it’s fun to flip the cultural script. Feels counter-cultural. š
“I would not enter anyoneās bedroom without feeling connected well first in their living roomāļø”
I wasn’t clear. I meant I like the man to take the initiative in the first stages of dating/romance.
“Iām relieved to hear that I could introduce my future BP to you. š Otherwise, Iād be worried that youād try to tango with his legsā¦”
Lol. Feminine men are for short term. For me, anyway. If I was interested. But I wouldn’t want that dynamic indefinitely. (I’m not talking about your BP. So don’t run me over with your car. š )
“Itās really hard to believe that behavioral addiction could be genetic.”
Huh? Have you done any reading at all on addictive behavior? It most definitely can be genetic.
“Or believing its possible genetic component would help you not to fight it?”
I’m not sure what you mean … help me not to fight it? Whatever the cause has nothing to do with whether I fight it.
“Thatās quite a lot.”
I’m not young. You’re going all the way back to 16 or 17.
“Have you got a chance to analyze possible causes for each of them, by yourself or with your therapist? Has your cptsd have anything to do with themā”
I’m sure there’s a childhood component to it, too. And personality type.
“My default expectation is not to get an invitation.”
I’m happy to be invited.
Marcia,
āI have mixed feelings about it. That might be the last time I hook with an LO. Before him, it was about 20 years ago.ā
I think I can understand your feelings, since it crossed my mind during my last LE; but ultimately I resisted the temptation. The oath of decades to myself and the certainty of the pain youāre experiencing pulled me back ā I knew heās causal after his LO/LE Pet appeared, which would insult me if I put myself in his orbit as a ācompetitionā with his SO and LO simultaneously š My LE mind was not that lost! š
āIām not sure what you mean. If you hook up with someone who you know has a partner, youāre willingly rolling the dice.ā
If that LO really reciprocated your LE emotions, despite his partner, thatās one matter. But if heās casually treating you as a side chick, then thatās like (in the slave era) a male master f*g* his female slave in his stable while waltzing with his wife in the lavish living room and this slave didnāt mind, since she enjoyed the sex or even raised his children alone.
āI think what he wrote was true. And I wasnāt expecting it. And I was floored. Iām not saying it was particularly poetic. Just direct.ā
It doesnāt matter whether you were expecting it or not. From what I heard you told and retold pieces of it, Iām not convinced that he was not lying ā his heart was not with you. But I believe youāre so hot that he did want to get onto your bed.
āThe message from LO-lite was more an expression of interest. (Iām being vague but canāt write the exact words.) ā
I get it, itās an interest to sexual hook up, because he picked up silent āagreementā already before the hot email.
āMy male friendās conversation was an expression of feelings. And I would never go that route.ā
Thatās brave of him, too; maybe heās over confident or really wanted your validationāļø
āTo express feelings when you donāt even know if the other person sees you in a sexual/romantic light. Itās too heavy. ā
Itās too insensitive on his side, but still human. I got such emotional expressions in the past, which did not completely surprise me. I could sense people very well if theyāre physically around me; but not if they were/are only verbally around me onlineā¦. Words create their own identity/reality that may match speakers or may far wander off to their own pathsā¦
āFeelings are something I would discuss once I knew the other person was interested and we began dating and a relationship was starting or had developed.ā
I know what youāre saying here. I tried for 8 years and know for certain that I am really unable to get into the dating mentality in this culture.
āMy male friend would never have sent a message like LO-lite. Theyāre very different people.ā
This I can believe you.
āMy male friend is cultured and seems a bit cut off from the sexual side of himself or sexual implications or innuendo.ā
There are many cultured men who are sexy. Their shape and sensible mind is more sexy than their body, to my intuitive eyes.
āSometimes I think itās fun to flip the cultural script. Feels counter-cultural. šā
Aphrodite is from your Western mythology, much older than the current culture. But Samantha of āSex in the Cityā is not an Aphrodite, she doesnāt inspire menās love or limerence, but menās carnal appetite, which will NOT sustain long on either side, it gets boring without mind and emotions deeply involved.
āI wasnāt clear. I meant I like the man to take the initiative in the first stages of dating/romance.ā
Maybe. It depends on whom, maybe a grade 8-10 LO.
āLol. Feminine men are for short term. For me, anyway. If I was interested. But I wouldnāt want that dynamic indefinitelyā
Youāre probably think those LEG type of gay men; I wonāt be even able to spend one day with either of them. Iām thinking about those cultured but vulnerable gentle men, like young D. Day-Lewis and J. Irons.
ā(Iām not talking about your BP. So donāt run me over with your car. š )ā
I have a theoretic BP in the cloud, no car to run you over yet. I cannot drive, anyway š
āHuh? Have you done any reading at all on addictive behavior? It most definitely can be genetic.ā
Why would I ever do such a research? No one in my reality suffers any kind of addiction(s), except my xSO. He was ācuredā by going to AA and converting to Christianity after the divorce.
āIām not sure what you mean ā¦ help me not to fight it? Whatever the cause has nothing to do with whether I fight it.ā
Well, once some people believe their addiction is genetic, they give themselves an excuse not to fight it. So many passively ruined or died.
āIām not young. Youāre going all the way back to 16 or 17.ā
Iām not young, either. I had 16 crushes with the names; but only last one with ET could be defined as an LE.
āIām sure thereās a childhood component to it, too. And personality type.ā
My LE followed that longing foot by foot in leaving, pushed away by my sole envisionā¦ so the root of my LE was definitely my cptsdā¼ļø Now, without that Longing, Iām becoming comically cheekyā¦ š¤£
āIām happy to be invited.ā
I was surprisedly invited to a Christmas party last Saturday, but found an excuse not to go, because the married beautiful and warm host/hostess have little in common with me in social topics. Iām tired of social chitchats with a bunch of more āstrangersā over drinks/food. I went home to meditate to rest my mind after the long teaching.
Snow,
“I knew heās causal after his LO/LE Pet appeared, which would insult me if I put myself in his orbit as a ācompetitionā with his SO and LO simultaneously š”
That would have bothered me, too.
“If that LO really reciprocated your LE emotions, despite his partner, thatās one matter. But if heās casually treating you as a side chick”
You’re still a side chick whether there are feelings or not.
“From what I heard you told and retold pieces of it, Iām not convinced that he was not lying ā his heart was not with you. But I believe youāre so hot that he did want to get onto your bed.”
I’m not sure what I’m not explaining. There was no discussion of what this meant or what would happen afterward before we got together. He didn’t mislead me.
“I get it, itās an interest to sexual hook up, because he picked up silent āagreementā already before the hot email.”
It wasn’t a sexual invitation. It was an expression of interest.
“Thatās brave of him, too; maybe heās over confident or really wanted your validationāļø”
I could have gone out with him and a month later, he could have ended things. Just because someone expresses “feelings,” doesn’t mean they’re locked in forever. And seeing as how he’s moved on, his “feelings” seem like shifting sand.
“Itās too insensitive on his side, but still human. ”
Exactly. It’s not sensitive to how he might be coming off to me. And then I felt responsible for his feelings, which was heavy.
“I got such emotional expressions in the past, which did not completely surprise me. ”
That’s what I was telling LaR. I’ve usually had a sense or inkling.
“But Samantha of āSex in the Cityā is not an Aphrodite, she doesnāt inspire menās love or limerence, but menās carnal appetite, which will NOT sustain long on either side, it gets boring without mind and emotions deeply involved.”
I’m not Samantha. But sometimes it was fun to take the reigns. And to … surprise the hell out of them. š
“Iām thinking about those cultured but vulnerable gentle men, like young D. Day-Lewis and J. Irons.”
Ah, ok. D. Day-Lewis … not my type. Though I loved “Age of Innocence.” J. Irons? Always like him as an actor, but I only find him sexy in the right part. “Margin Call.” He was sexy in that.
“except my xSO. He was ācuredā by going to AA and converting to Christianity after the divorce.”
No one is ever cured. They have to avoid the stimulant.
” Iām tired of social chitchats with a bunch of more āstrangersā over drinks/food.”
This is more than likely what the dinner I’m going to will be like. Thus, I’m grateful to be thought of and included but I wouldn’t say I’m excited about it.
Marcia,
“Thatās what I was telling LaR. Iāve usually had a sense or inkling.”
Again – because you’re a woman, you’re wired better than me, as a man, to get a reliable inkling. But yeah, I DO get an inkling. If I had to bet my life savings either way, I’d say LO reciprocates to some extent. It just isn’t remotely helpful for me to let that idea have much air time.
LaR,
So years ago … this married guy I worked with approached me and asked me to dinner. I barely knew him. (No, I did not go, but bear with me.) And it felt like it came out of nowhere, but when I looked back … I remembered running into him at a grocery store (literally years earlier) shortly after I’d started the job and he was very chatty. I didn’t think much of it and he didn’t say much to me after that. And then I remembered his buddy ( a mutual friend) telling me that I made this guy uncomfortable. Again, years passed.
But here’s my point … follow the crumbs. Follow the clues. People usually give themselves away.
Marcia,
āYouāre still a side chick whether there are feelings or not.ā
Well, at least youād feel a bit more respected and lovedā¦
āHe didnāt mislead me.ā
Of course, I take your version. You knew what was possibly coming, but still dived in. Now, youāre still tasting its bitter fruitā¦. But the memory will hopefully fade away soon in the coming New Year.
āIt wasnāt a sexual invitation. It was an expression of interest.ā
Come on, an expression of interest is a subtle invitation of sex; no one would be that direct, except Samantha.
āI could have gone out with him and a month later, he could have ended things. Just because someone expresses āfeelings,ā doesnāt mean theyāre locked in forever. ā
Youāre very insightful here! Feelings on both sides could change over a short or long time. Thatās why a truly loving person needs to show/cultivate more loving actions, not just a bunch of evaporable words. š
āAnd seeing as how heās moved on, his āfeelingsā seem like shifting sand.ā
Feelings of many amicable, friendly but insecure, (un)cultured, extroverted men and woman are like shifting sandā¦. I have a helpless tendency to distrust their characters. My intuition was rarely wrongā¦.
āExactly. Itās not sensitive to how he might be coming off to me. And then I felt responsible for his feelings, which was heavy.ā
Validation seekers seldom consider for the other side, their goal takes a priority. We need/should NOT to feel responsible for them, but sympathetic. Essentially, how others feel about us, liking or disliking, is never our responsibility. All we need to take care is to bravely be our authentic Self with its ānormalityā or āoddityā .
āThatās what I was telling LaR. Iāve usually had a sense or inkling.ā
Some men canāt tell, their intuition is weaker; some men can tell but too unconfident to trust their own senses; some just need to hear spoken flattering words to booster their fragile ego or vanity.
āIām not Samantha. But sometimes it was fun to take the reigns. And to ā¦ surprise the hell out of them. šā
I never alluded you as Samantha, who is not a limerent. I was just saying Samantha does not qualify as an Aphrodite who can inspire menās deeper love combined with Eros and other loves, not only the carvel desire.
āAh, ok. D. Day-Lewis ā¦ not my type. Though I loved āAge of Innocence.ā J. Irons? Always like him as an actor, but I only find him sexy in the right part. āMargin Call.ā He was sexy in that.ā
D. Day-Lewis appears as an introvert. I loved āage of Innocenceā and āThe unbearable lightness of Beingā. J. Irons are a bit more social and more vulnerable in his early roles in āBrideshead Revisitedā and āDamageāā¦ I havenāt seen āMargin callā yet. They both are not girly, but gentle and āfeminineā to my eyes.
āNo one is ever cured. They have to avoid the stimulant.ā
Well, as long as they donāt touch alcohol (my xSO) or restricts to one class of wine (my x-in-law) in social gatherings, I consider them ācuredā. Youāre very pessimistic on addiction; try to respect and believe more in human Willpower!
āThis is more than likely what the dinner Iām going to will be like. Thus, Iām grateful to be thought of and included but I wouldnāt say Iām excited about it.ā
I actually enjoy more reading or writing or workout alone from the sunrise to the moonsetā¦ I donāt feel lonely at all when my mind is actively learning and body moving ā my limited time and energy are well spent.
Have a very merry š Eve āļø
Snow,
“Well, at least youād feel a bit more respected and lovedā¦”
I guess. But you’re still the side chick. And even if there are genuine feelings, if the SO finds out, watch how fast that could turn into “just sex” in his defense of the situation.
“You knew what was possibly coming, but still dived in. ”
That’s exactly right. I just wanted to have the experience without thinking about it to death. Let the thinking come later.
“Now, youāre still tasting its bitter fruitā¦. ”
That’s true. But I don’t regret it. I don’t know how many more of those kinds of experiences the Universe is going to give me.
“Come on, an expression of interest is a subtle invitation of sex; no one would be that direct, except Samantha.”
I’ve had guys be as direct as Samantha. But what would you have had LO-lite do? You can’t “date” someone who’s not available. He couldn’t really ask me out. So he either expresses interest or feelings. And given that he wasn’t sure if I was interested (suspected but wasn’t sure), expressing feelings, even if he had them, would have been, IMO, five steps ahead in the process.
I think you’re over-valuing “feelings” versus “interest” because you see feelings as being somehow more genuine. Who’s to know if my guy friend, for example, isn’t disclosing feelings often? Unless you really know the person for a while and know them well, you just don’t know. Unless this is someone you’ve been friends with for a while and they’ve openly discussed their romantic life with you and you know how they “operate,” for lack of a better word, with women.
“Feelings of many amicable, friendly but insecure, (un)cultured, extroverted men and woman are like shifting sand”
I’m talking about my male friend, who is introverted and cultured. He’s already moved on.
“We need/should NOT to feel responsible for them, but sympathetic. ”
That’s easy to say until you’re in the middle of one of those conversations. And they’re so heavy. It feels like you’re trapped in molasses. Time slows down. And you feel bad. You don’t want to hurt the other person.
I used to read this guy’s site. He calls himself Dr. NerdLove. I agree with the bulk of what he wrote about disclosing. Here’s the link if you want to read the whole thing, but I’ll just paste a paragraph on here.
https://www.doctornerdlove.com/ask-dr-nerdlove-tell-my-friend-im-in-love/
“What [disclosure] will do is put the responsibility for managing your feels on [her]. Because this isnāt something that you can do in a vacuum. You may be releasing that tension in you, but youāre dropping your feels at her feet like a cat bringing a bird to its owner and expecting her to pick it up. But while a bird can be scooped up and tossed in the trash, the knowledge of how you feel ā and the meaning of those feelings ā canāt be as easily discarded and forgotten about. Sheās now going to have to figure out what to do with this knowledge. ”
“Some men canāt tell, their intuition is weaker”
Oh, but watch out for the man with a good intuition! š
“I never alluded you as Samantha, who is not a limerent. ”
That’s true. But I’ve hardly waited for limerence to motivate me every time.
“I was just saying Samantha does not qualify as an Aphrodite who can inspire menās deeper love combined with Eros and other loves, not only the carvel desire.”
She actually does have some boyfriends on the show. I’m not a big fan of that show by any stretch of the imagination. I just finally watched it recently. I had never seen it. And Baryshnikov is so hot on that show. š
“D. Day-Lewis appears as an introvert. I loved āThe unbearable lightness of Beingā”
I didn’t like him in that. He’s a player. He runs around and doesn’t understand Binoche’s character’s need for a deeper connection. But, granted, it’s been decades since I’ve seen it. So I don’t remember everything about the plot.
“J. Irons are a bit more social and more vulnerable in his early roles in āBrideshead Revisitedā and āDamageāā¦”
I liked him in both of those very much.
“Youāre very pessimistic on addiction; try to respect and believe more in human Willpower!”
To reduce it to willpower is dismissive. If it were that simple, it wouldn’t be such an issue and so difficult to treat. But I’m going to “pull a Snow” and say we need to avoid this topic. We’ve gone around in circles on this before. š
“I actually enjoy more reading or writing or workout alone from the sunrise to the moonsetā¦ I donāt feel lonely at all when my mind is actively learning and body moving ā my limited time and energy are well spent.”
I’m probably only going to go for a couple of hours. But if someone extends the invitation and wants to make sure I have somewhere to go … that’s a nice thing. So I should make an effort to go.
“Have a very merry š Eve āļø”
You, too! Are you busy making your Hot Pot?
Marcia
āI guess. But youāre still the side chick. And even if there are genuine feelings, if the SO finds out, watch how fast that could turn into ājust sexā in his defense of the situation.ā
I donāt care about terminology or high morality, but mainly focus on oneās own psychology/mental health. If one chooses to become a side chick, then she takes all consequence of being discovered, slighted/scolded by her lover & his SO, and frowned by the society.
āI just wanted to have the experience without thinking about it to death. Let the thinking come later.ā
If I take this thinking, I might have tried drugs, unlimited cocktails, and more lovers than I could stomachā¦ Taking any action for the sake of experiencing, without thinking 1~3 steps ahead, is NOT āSmartly Selfish, possibly harmful to oneself first or far most.
āThatās true. But I donāt regret it. I donāt know how many more of those kinds of experiences the Universe is going to give me.ā
Iād regret it terribly if I took the chances, especially after knowing what I would feel like afterwards (via LE#2). Now, knowing what LE is, I wonāt even be attempted in the future by any partnered menāļø
āBut what would you have had LO-lite do? You canāt ādateā someone whoās not available. He couldnāt really ask me out. ā
You walk away! You already knew by then what LE is.
āSo he either expresses interest or feelings. And given that he wasnāt sure if I was interested (suspected but wasnāt sure), expressing feelings, even if he had them, would have been, IMO, five steps ahead in the process.āā
You sound like defending him, while all he wanted was to have casual carnal fun with you as an entertainment, which you liked very much and still missā¦
āI think youāre over-valuing āfeelingsā versus āinterestā because you see feelings as being somehow more genuine.ā
Iām more interested in the feelings of caring/loving, of connecting/bonding. I donāt think the word āmore genuineā really applies in my preference. I desire a deep emotional, mental, or soulful intimacy felt within by both sides.
āWhoās to know if my guy friend, for example, isnāt disclosing feelings often?ā
If he is not sensitive enough to feel that I am not romantically interested in him, I wonāt care to know about his feelings. In most of situations, I could foretell a wanton heart/eyes.ā¦ If Iām romantically interested in someone, he would know it without me directly disclosing. If he is unable to tell, then heās not a matchā¦ š
āUnless you really know the person for a while and know them well, you just donāt know. Unless this is someone youāve been friends with for a while and theyāve openly discussed their romantic life with you and you know how they āoperate,ā for lack of a better word, with women.ā
Thatās why AFTER a grade 7-10 Glimmer, building up a genuine friendship first is more important in a possible relationship. You just argued well for me.
āIām talking about my male friend, who is introverted and cultured. Heās already moved on.ā
Great! Then you can feel relaxed. Heās not worthy of your care according to what you described.
āThatās easy to say until youāre in the middle of one of those conversations. And theyāre so heavy. ā
I was in such a situation several times before, I did not feel heave but sad/sympathetic for them. Iād treat them even nicer but made it clear that a romance was impossible. Most of them backed up and moved on, a couple stayed as a lifetime friend. No fwb ever involved.
āIt feels like youāre trapped in molasses. Time slows down. And you feel bad. You donāt want to hurt the other person.ā
Based on COO and Stoicism, their hurt is his reaction to your romantic disinterests in them ā always a possible reality. Ultimately, itās not your responsibility that they feel hurt.
āI used to read this guyās site. He calls himself Dr. NerdLove. I agree with the bulk of what he wrote about disclosing. Hereās the link if you want to read the whole thing, but Iāll just paste a paragraph on here.
https://www.doctornerdlove.com/ask-dr-nerdlove-tell-my-friend-im-in-love/ā
I scanned the site over, I disagree with his psychology. A lot of people want to dump their mental or emotional loads/rubbish to someone else, instead of taking care of themselves and become stronger and wiser. Stoical mindset is a minority even in the West, and Eastern Self-Cultivation is almost unheard. š
āWhat [disclosure] will do is put the responsibility for managing your feels on [her]. Because this isnāt something that you can do in a vacuum. You may be releasing that tension in you, but youāre dropping your feels at her feet like a cat bringing a bird to its owner and expecting her to pick it up. ā
I donāt get this metaphor: how do you become an owner of the š¦ , which was first produced and fed solely by the suitor secretlyā Disclosed or not, it belongs to the suitor! Dropping at my feet, I would not pick it up š unless I love that š¦ and agree to feed her with him together.
āBut while a bird can be scooped up and tossed in the trash, the knowledge of how you feel ā and the meaning of those feelings ā canāt be as easily discarded and forgotten about. Sheās now going to have to figure out what to do with this knowledge. ā
In my opinion, itās problematic mentality, selfish/irresponsible of the suitor, and unfair to āherā! A rubbish coaching! If you give a public speech, a quarter of the audience applauded it, a quarter booed you, a quarter doesnāt care, a quarter threatens to kill you, are you responsible for 300 hundred reactions, or just your own speechāļø
āOh, but watch out for the man with a good intuition! šā
The man with acute intuition, insightful empathy, and compassion is the sexiest in my šļø š ! š As I said before that oneās brain/mind is the sexiest organ on human being!
āBut Iāve hardly waited for limerence to motivate me every time.ā
I canāt do anymore without a glimmer of a 7 +. āFreeā/loveless sex is sooooooooooooo boring and degenerating to my soul š
āShe actually does have some boyfriends on the show. ā
Yes, out of 666 causal, male fucking-bodies, emerged one 28 yrs old actor/waiter from Canada, named Smith, who cuddled her even after she got cancer, Chemo, and shaved headā¦ I was touched by his caring. š§”
āAnd Baryshnikov is so hot on that show. šā
Heās indeed sexy, but also āfeminineā as a Ballet dancer ā
https://youtu.be/ImzkWZkaIIM?si=xBFtbN-SNKq2Pw5c ā Baryshnikovās dance, āWhite Nightā.
āI didnāt like him in that. Heās a player. He runs around and doesnāt understand Binocheās characterās need for a deeper connection. ā
He clearly knows Binocheās characterās needs and only truly loves her; but he is frustrated and doesnāt understand why himself canāt help go wanton all the time. The beauty of the movie is about how a playboy changed in the end. Then the finally happy couple died š¢ The book is much better.
āTo reduce it to willpower is dismissive. If it were that simple, it wouldnāt be such an issue and so difficult to treat. ā
Using human willpower is dismissiveāļø š³ Itās such an issue because some Westerners are āspoiledā by democracy, too many choices, decadent/indulging lifestyle, and the self-centered modern culture. Any method that requires human willpower and mental strength is dismissed as too hard, too simple, or too inhumanā¦ Visit the East and find out how ordinary people deal with addiction issues over there.
āBut Iām going to āpull a Snowā and say we need to avoid this topic. Weāve gone around in circles on this before. šā
That would be the best, because youāre not going to get me to your side of the ācampā; Iām only 50% Buddhist.
āAre you busy making your Hot Pot?ā
Iāll do it on Friday, 26th. I already cooked some home-style holiday food, yummy! š
I hope you donāt have to work during the holidays?
Snow,
“You walk away! You already knew by then what LE is.”
True. I can’t argue with you there.
“You sound like defending him, while all he wanted was to have casual carnal fun with you as an entertainment, which you liked very much and still missā¦”
I don’t think someone wanting some fun is so horrible like you do. It’s not some kind of crime against humanity like you’re describing it. It’s only a problem if the two people are not on the same page about what’s happening. Now, how he’s acted afterward … yes, he’s been a horse’s ass. But I have no control over that.
“Most of them backed up and moved on, a couple stayed as a lifetime friend. No fwb ever involved.”
Mine were the same way. If they were a friend, I wasn’t trying to make them into anything more.
“If Iām romantically interested in someone, he would know it without me directly disclosing. If he is unable to tell, then heās not a matchā¦ ”
I agree. To be clear … I’m talking about situations where both parties are available … As a general rule, if I’m interested, I’m putting out the signals. If he’s not sure, I’m probably not putting out the signals (my guy friend).
“If I take this thinking, I might have tried drugs, unlimited cocktails, and more lovers than I could stomach ”
Life is about experiences. And I’m not done yet. š I am WELL AWARE you do not agree.
“Iāll do it on Friday, 26th. I already cooked some home-style holiday food, yummy! š”
Same meal as T-Day?
“I hope you donāt have to work during the holidays?”
I have to work tomorrow.
Marcia,
āI donāt think someone wanting some fun is so horrible like you do. Itās not some kind of crime against humanity like youāre describing it. ā
Youāre right, itās not a crime against humanity, but itās a hurtful degeneration against MY humanity! Since very young, I attribute meanings to most of things I do, fun stuff is definitely included.
Roman Empire was ruined in decadence!
In COO, we learned that doing everything with oneās body has a price/consequence, particularly instant, temporary sensuous fun, such as eating, drinking, touchingā¦ Our body is āuntouchableā, not even by parents or bosom friends; holding hands is fine. We never hug, touch othersā hands/body, or kiss on cheeks in public, until this day!
āItās only a problem if the two people are not on the same page about whatās happening. ā
Exactly. If two parties like/care each other more or less on the same level, then no issues. I tried casual fun while in dating apps, which I didnāt enjoy but didnāt get emotional hurt either. I got some fun with 3 lovers, because I didnāt care for them much mentally or emotionally, vice versa.
However, when I was into the other side emotionally but not the other way around, then a big hurt kicked in with physical intimacy. Only afterwards, Iād feel being taken advantage of by someone I cared for and looked up toā¦ the way worse than a fwb.
A physical intimacy is defined by me as LOVE-making, not just sex; where is the mutual love in this unbalanced scenarioā
āNow, how heās acted afterward ā¦ yes, heās been a horseās ass. But I have no control over that.ā
I foresaw the possibility of what you experienced (even ET was a 10), so I pulled back my feet with the temporary pain before the red line. I clearly anticipated the later pains would be far worse and long lasting, so I acted to control its happeningāļø
āTo be clear ā¦ Iām talking about situations where both parties are available ā¦ ā
Of course, the both sides are available socially and emotionally; excluding a recluse by choice.
āAs a general rule, if Iām interested, Iām putting out the signals. If heās not sure, Iām probably not putting out the signals (my guy friend).ā
If the other side does not or is unable to get the signals, heās probably a dumb duck or a non-limerent! If I have to explain what Easter eggs are, then imagine how many more explanations needed down the roadāļø Thatās what happened a lot of times between my loving xSO and me, I felt like mothering him in all fronts and exhaustedā¦
āLife is about experiences. And Iām not done yet. šā
Thatās not how I see/define life. Life has been always an adventure to me at any given time (even internally) and I like to try new experiences. But I often didnāt think or act according to social boxes, without breaking laws or moral codes, but mischievous, yesā¦.
I strive to avoid experiencing what might/definitely would bring Myself and others physical /mental /emotional harms/pains, which could in theory lead to a realistic or metaphorical death (happened more in COO with careless folks). Life is not a joking matter, despite I could be light-hearted or joking superficiallyāļø
Of course, big or small misjudgments, misunderstandings, and mistakes were unavoidably /involuntarily made in my (and othersā) paths, but they are a part of learning in adventurous life ā the only accountable, valuable teachersāļø
āI am WELL AWARE you do not agree.ā
Letās settle on our disagreement, even if some your definitions might bring you more emotional pains in the future. Iāve ālearnedā so much from you that Iād just passively watch othersā wishful thinking or decision-making even if they mean to jump off the cliff. Iāll just sit, sigh and shred some Buddhistic š¢ š¤·š»āāļø
āSame meal as T-Day?ā
The similar style, but slightly different ingredients: different parts of pork, beef, lamb meat thinly sliced; different type of fish balls and fish slices, fried bean curd, green-leaf vegetable, rice noodles, and still sliced lotus roots, with mulled wine.
āI have to work tomorrow.ā
Did your Christmas party take place yet? How did it go for you?
Snow,
“We never hug, touch othersā hands/body, or kiss on cheeks in public, until this day!”
My family isn’t all that affectionate, either. If they haven’t see you for five years, they’d greet you like they just saw you yesterday. I’m not really a fan of that, tbh. But you can’t change other people.
“If two parties like/care each other more or less on the same level, then no issues.”
I mean that both have the same expectations. You are both on the same page that things are casual. I think casual is only unethical if one side lies to the other (acts as if they want more to get sex but they don’t) or one party knows the other one wants more and doesn’t care and just goes ahead, anyway. Of course, the second person is also still responsible for their own choices.
“I got some fun with 3 lovers, because I didnāt care for them much mentally or emotionally, vice versa.”
That’s about where I am, too. If I don’t give a s**t, I can have casual. But, then, what’s the point of even doing it?
“However, when I was into the other side emotionally but not the other way around, then a big hurt kicked in with physical intimacy. Only afterwards, Iād feel being taken advantage of by someone I cared for and looked up toā¦ the way worse than a fwb.”
I guess it depends on the situation. As I’ve written several times … I never discussed expectations with LO-lite. And at the time, I wasn’t really sure what mine were.
“I foresaw the possibility of what you experienced (even ET was a 10),”
That he won’t even say hello to me is ridiculous. But, as I wrote, I cannot control what he does.
“I clearly anticipated the later pains would be far worse and long lasting, so I acted to control its happeningāļø”
I’m feeling better about it. I’m getting myself back in shape to … to prepare for new dudes. š
“If the other side does not or is unable to get the signals, heās probably a dumb duck or a non-limerent! If I have to explain what Easter eggs are, then imagine how many more explanations needed down the roadāļø”
I’m speaking generally again … but if a woman is interested, she usually tries to help a guy out to let him know. Gives him an opening. You know, centuries ago she would drop her handkerchief in front of him. š
“Thatās what happened a lot of times between my loving xSO and me, I felt like mothering him in all fronts and exhaustedā¦”
I wouldn’t want to be someone’s mother. I keep trying to point that out to Adam. š
” Iāve ālearnedā so much from you that Iād just passively watch othersā wishful thinking or decision-making even if they mean to jump off the cliff. ”
I’d rather do something than talk about it extensively. š Now, “doing something” can mean deciding to do nothing. But it’s still making a decision.
“The similar style, but slightly different ingredients: different parts of pork, beef, lamb meat thinly sliced; different type of fish balls and fish slices, fried bean curd, green-leaf vegetable, rice noodles, and still sliced lotus roots, with mulled wine.”
Do you have to cook all those different things or do they come pre-made?
“Did your Christmas party take place yet? How did it go for you?”
Yes. It was ok.
Marcia,
Just finished my hot pot dinner and drank a bit more Mulled wine than usual, so you may hear some of my ādrunk wordsā¦
āBut you canāt change other people.ā
No, we canāt! People can only possibly change when they want to and make Herculesā efforts to change. Anyone else, including a god, is just an assistant or catalyst to ignite their conscious wish or unconscious readiness to make changes they need or want.
āI mean that both have the same expectations. You are both on the same page that things are casual. ā
Ah, your famous word āexpectationsā again! As a 95% Stoic coming from an unofficial Stoic culture, I donāt deal with the Western kind of āexpectationsā which lead to possible disappointments. Just look at this Christmas card/party invitation businessā¦. If you expect a card from a particular person, eg. LO/friend, but s/hedidnāt get it, your Christmas felt like a ādisasterā; if you truly expected nothing but woke up with beautiful or flattery holiday greetings, youād be over the Moon. Itās a simply psychology/Stoic trickāļø
So coming back to your dating business, for us COO folks, there are few/no expectation of any kind openly discussed or placed in the mind ā they are tacky or unwise. You put out whatever or how much you can/want to give (if youāre so attracted by the other side), EXPECT nothing, but Hope (pray) for all your desired outcomes for each steps, then watch what other sides do.
As long as you donāt receive an engagement proposal, it is CAUSAL, even if the other side tells you in words and shows you in actions, s/heās helplessly in love with you and canāt live without youā¦ Fluffy words are free and anyone (liars, too) can say them, but solid actions (even tiny) carry more weightsā¦.
It goes this way on the both sides. If the other side gives less or takes more, you leave! If the other side canāt figure out what youāre doing like a cute, dumb duck, you leave, too; vice versa! Youāre willing to be a teacher and student, but not a father/mother. You two Tango dancers already have some matching fundamental skills to get together for creating/improvising new pieces of sexy, vigorous relationship Tango!
āI think casual is only unethical if one side lies to the other (acts as if they want more to get sex but they donāt)ā
Yes, I agree with you totally here and absolutely despise those unethical people, they tell white-lies to get into your skirt. Thatās what some dodgy LOs/Narcs want to do but donāt dare openly admire. They take advantages of vulnerable limerents.
āor one party knows the other one wants more and doesnāt care and just goes ahead, anyway. Of course, the second person is also still responsible for their own choices.ā
I call this āpartyā weak or slavish minded, because they are led by their base pair-bond drive and the LE leash, while thinking that is āloveā. They were under the altered state of mind, pretty much helplessly illogical. Thatās when limerent needs to use HUMAN Willpower to pull oneself away, even if it means that theyād pass out or vomitā¦ thatās when an authentic friend would step in to tie those weak limerents to their bed poles ā metaphorically speaking!
āThatās about where I am, too. If I donāt give a s**t, I can have casual. But, then, whatās the point of even doing it?ā
The point? If they are more than a 7, and not unpleasant to be with, then get your needs met through them. But keep in mind that theyāre not your LO/BP, youāre just having some sensual fun with themā¦. Of course, they need to be physically/athletically fit at leastā¦. Iāve graduated from casual dating more than 1.5 dozen years agoā¦ no moreāļø
āI guess it depends on the situation. As Iāve written several times ā¦ I never discussed expectations with LO-lite. And at the time, I wasnāt really sure what mine were.ā
Again, I donāt work with your system of āexpectationsā.ā¦ And what expectation one could have with a partnered LO ā NOTHING dignified, lasting, or substantially fulfilling, because everything would have to be done in secret, stealthily feltā¦. Itās NOT even a rebellion for a right causeā¦
āThat he wonāt even say hello to me is ridiculous. But, as I wrote, I cannot control what he does.ā
Heās really CRUEL, almost inhuman not to say hello in this situation! š” You/we all cannot control what anyone else does at any given time and in any situationāļøā the universal LAW and fundamental discipline of Stoicism. One can smartly strive, give, hope, pray; but not foolishly demand, request, or expect anything external; otherwise one suffers/crushesā¦ Why canāt people see and accept such a simple LAWāļøš¤
āIām feeling better about it. Iām getting myself back in shape to ā¦ to prepare for new dudes. šā
Great!š You have new dudes in sight? š¤©. Go for them with your might, but have little/no expectationsāļø Youāll acutely sense whether theyāre into you or not, or somewhere in betweenā¦ if not in the degree that you wish, pull back and leave. Verbal negotiations/ācontractsā donāt mean much, they/you both can āstray offā behind each othersā back. Just focus on the quality of dating, of being together. Focus more on their actions than wordsā¦
āIām speaking generally again ā¦ but if a woman is interested, she usually tries to help a guy out to let him know. Gives him an opening. You know, centuries ago she would drop her handkerchief in front of him. šā
Yes, š! Handkerchiefs or pencilsā¦ with me in the past, I did not need to drop anything, but a ācausalā gaze for 3-5 secondsā¦ only dumb ducks š¦ did not get itā¦
āI wouldnāt want to be someoneās mother. I keep trying to point that out to Adam. šā
Itās really hard for men to be in between a Momās boy and Senecaā¦ I had enough with the formerā¦ but willing to be a tutor of a eager pupil and a humble student of a wise teacherā¦.
ā Iād rather do something than talk about it extensively. š Now, ādoing somethingā can mean deciding to do nothing. But itās still making a decision.ā
Iām learning your Western ways to ārespectā (keep my one eye closed) othersā decisions on some self-harming matters, while disrespect/disapprove matters themselves, such as over-drinking, over-eating, taking drugs, procrastinating, sleeping with unavailable/partnered LO, etc. They ARE detrimental šØ to Oneself first and far mostā¼ļø
āDo you have to cook all those different things or do they come pre-made?ā
Itās cooking on the table again by each person. The materials are all fresh, raw, thinly sliced by machines, which no family owns.
The mulled wine š· is still in my head, I hope I didnāt say anything that draws attentions of acute ears and sharp mouths .ā¦ š If you want to know my less guarded Selfs, feed me some hot wine š„ š· or sake š¶ or delicious cocktailsš¹ā¦
Typo:
1. eg. LO/friend, but YOU didnāt get itā¦.
2. Thatās what some dodgy LOs/Narcs want to do but donāt dare openly Admit.
@Bewitched.
Hello there, you sweet rambler, you. Responding to your post (and the thread that follows) to let you know that rambling isn’t always a bad thing. Rambling can definitely help one sharpen one’s thoughts. š
Spealing very generally and not to anyone’s particular situation, I think there are people (potential or current or past LOs) out there who are just naturally flirtatious. Or maybe they’re not even flirtatious per se. Maybe they blur the lines between friendliness and flirtation just enough that it’s impossible to know what they want.
However, I’m not here to discuss friendliness vs flirtation. The point I’m making is this … for these people, regardless of behaviour, said behaviour probably constitutes everyday behaviour for them. But for us, as people prone to limerence, such behaviour may feel like an other-worldly connection because of our own psychological profiles. (Dopamine deprivation maybe? Hey, it sounds ridiculous, but it’s as good an explanation as any). š¤£
Lucy Bain suggests we often fall for LOs not so much because of looks, although looks are certainly important, but because of the way they interact with us on an emotional level. In other words, there’s a huge emotional component to whatever sets off The Glimmer and whatever comes after The Glimmer.
I think what I liked about my LO was that he came across as a very serious person. He took himself very seriously, and I approved of all that seriousness. But then, occasionally, he could be shockingly playful. I don’t think I fell for his “naughty sense of humour”, though, because, let’s face it, lots of people – both men and women – have a naughty sense of humour. A naughty sense of humour isn’t remarkable. What I adored about my LO was the CONTRAST between the very serious demeanour he adopted most of the time and then the person he was (an imp? A satyr? A scapegrace?) very infrequently and in less guarded moments.
I felt as if I was seeing into his soul where the cheeky side of him came out. In other words, for me, accidental glimpses into his soul felt like true intimacy. I felt “chosen” or “special” because my LO wasn’t afraid to show that side of himself to me. He didn’t necessarily flaunt that side of himself in front of everyone. He obviously felt safe with me (a male) in a way he didn’t feel safe with other males.
I don’t think I’m making up the contradiction at the heart of my LO’s personality. If he didn’t truly possess a serious-yet-playful side, I couldn’t have zeroed in on that and amplified it to the nth degree. But what I think is even more pertinent is that while “serious-yet-playful” sums up my LO’s nature quite well, it sums up my own nature even better. Yet when I was interacting on an almost daily basis with my LO, I was suppressing that part of my personality, because I was (a) naturally very shy and (b) because my parents were very preoccupied during my childhood and they didn’t find me amusing. My parents were allergic to laughter. š²
Perhaps what I have said here will make no sense to you. But perhaps it will also answer one of the questions you’re previously posed … how are LOs like mirrors? The thing is … my LO didn’t mirror me and I didn’t mirror him in the sense of copying behaviours, mimicking speech patterns, etc. Rather, when I looked at my LO, I almost glimpsed something lost. He showed me what parts of myself I concealed in order to be considered a good son, etc, etc. My LO was like a mirror in that when I looked at him, I saw myself. But I didn’t realise I was looking at myself – I thought I was looking at him. With time, I realised I didn’t need to keep disowning the parts of myself I saw because they’re some of my most winning traits.
I mean, I quite enjoy being this serious, reserved, dignified, rather majestic man who terrifies people with my mere presence. But I also enjoy having this other unexpected side to my nature too, which thrills and delights and disarms people. I think that’s what my LO and I had in common. We were both effortlessly regal. We were both mischievous. And we both enjoyed messing around with other people’s perceptions, by switching up social masks at odd moments. š
Dear Bewitched,
“Unfortunately, I got plenty evidence that he did like me too (or did I imagine it?).”
With the evidence you got, I don’t think you imagined it.
“It makes sense that the best medicine for getting over LO was convincing myself that I wasnāt special and that he was an inveterate chaser of random females.”
I never picked that up from you before. Do you really think he was that?
“I guess that this is why disclosure with non-reciprocation is so effective at killing limerence.”
But an answer to a disclosure, of non-reciprocation, wouldn’t always be a full or true answer. Sometimes, when giving myself the necessary reminders of all the reasons not to disclose, I think of it like this – are they even likely to give us a true answer anyway?!
Like, let’s flip this round – say your LO had disclosed to you – would you have admitted your feelings back? I just think it’s so dangerous having that out in the open between two people who aren’t free to act on it. Limerence with unknowns sucks, but I would worry things would get much worse still if the knowledge was out there.
“This is why I feel sorry for people who are unlucky enough to fall for someone who they see on a daily basis for years, I think its harder to convince yourself of subjective truths when there is more objective evidence”
It depends what the objective evidence says. If the limerent has been fooling themselves about signals equalling reciprocation, then the scales would eventually slip from their eyes in the face of loads of objective evidence that the LO only liked them as a friend. If it was two mutually limerent people who saw each other every day, then eventually all the passing of evidence would grind them down to the “we can’t do this anymore” stage, and they’d have to pull back, or someone would disclose, or something else would have to break the pattern.
Bit of a ramble on my part there too.
Interesting. If the other limerent would take the risk and the courage to disclose, I probably would feel like ghosting them if I lied to them about my own feelings. Of course I shouldnāt assume that the other person has the same honesty urge, I just hadnāt thought about it until I read your post.
I agree about constant exposure possibly helping to reduce limerence if objective evidence of non-limerence is given again and again.
About mutually limerents, thereās Lost in Spaceās story..
To ramble a bit myself, I thought about this āliving and being peaceful with limerenceābit I was asking LaR and Camilla about.
I think one huge symptom of limerence was for me that I always wanted more. A confession of mutuality, for example, and after that I guess I still wouldnāt have been at peace, since my LEs always had a physical component, I would have craved physical stuff, hugs, kisses, always more. While limerent in my definition, I wouldnāt have ever had enough. It would have been a sign of non-limerence to have been peaceful with what I got.
On specialty,
I think all of you three can be sure in my objective opinion that you were/are special to your LOs. But āspecialā doesnāt mean the same consequences of acting towards you than for you, as Imho described.
I had a friendly phone conversation with XLO yesterday (he really is quite stubborn in keeping this friendship)without resentment from my side, so maybe thereās still hope here for a friendship lite.
I donāt dare to ask Imho about holiday greetings.
Such a great image, us sitting down for a pint! Would be lovely, even without an agricultural vehicle show.
Mila,
You’ve made me think more. I need to elaborate.
Scenario 1: If LO disclosed feelings for me, I most definitely *wouldn’t* lie in my answer. Well – only a bit – i’d admit attraction but not the concept of limerence. I’d be honest and then say “it can’t go anywhere, but you are very important to me as a friend, so I want us to find a way through it”. I am pretty confident we could get through that conversation … but then like you say there is Lost in Space’s story … (LiS, please feel free to chime in if you are reading this. I am nowhere close to disclosing – we are talking hypotheticals just FYI), and what you said about the craving for more physical intimacy once it is in the open.
Scenario 2 is about me disclosing to her. That’s when I’m less confident I’d get a true answer. This is because she is the one who has more face to lose (no SO, knows that anything she says could impact my SO, etc). I just keep reminding myself what an unfair position me disclosing would have on her, and how there could be *no* satisfying answer. It has worked for this long to stop me.
On ghosting – I am with you in this debate. I have seen it said before on LwL (don’t know if from DrL or comments) that it is always the right thing for the LO to do, to go NC/LC if the limerent disclosed and it was unreciprocated. I can see the case for that, at least for a period of time, to give the limerent the space to break free.
But ghosting when there has been no disclosure (either way round really, and I only mean this point to apply to cases where the two are friends) is really bad in my book. I couldn’t ever see myself doing it and I would dislike it a lot if it was done to me. It feels like a lazy attitude of “easier not to bother than to try and own this challenging situation”.
LO was telling me this week about her experience of being ghosted by someone. There seems little chance she’d ever ghost me, as if I learned one thing from that chat, it’s that she hates ghosting.
I had a brain fade and almost picked a stupid argument with her this week by text over a work matter, that could have easily gone down a slippery slope. But I didn’t send the text and I’m glad. We ended the week in a nice place and that’s good, as the natural long NC that happens now (apart from holiday greetings etc) won’t trouble me much now.
I’m glad to hear that you had a pleasant chat to xLO. And I hope your head clears up soon. Mulled wine to be drunk!
Unfortunately, agriculture seems to follow me everywhere in this place. Several posters seem to have kept the š engine running, even in these cold winter months, for two years in a row now.
LaR,
ā This is because she is the one who has more face to lose (no SO, knows that anything she says could impact my SO, etc).ā
Interesting again, Iād say youāve got more to lose than her since youāve got an SO. She still would less likely disclose first because she must assume that itās a hopeless endeavor and she would look like a āhomewreckerā in the making. But if you who has more to lose, disclose first, she has less barriers to disclose too, than you would have if she disclosed first, if you get through my complicated sentence.
My head is better, thanks! I had mulled wine just once this season and I canceled one occasion for tonight because of the headā¦ getting older.
āUnfortunately, agriculture seems to follow me everywhere in this place.ā
At some point you have to give in to your true vocation!
Mila,
Despite your ailments, you’re doing a better job of articulating what I’m actually trying to say this week than I am. It is indeed that hypothetical “homewrecker in the making” status that underpins everything I’ve been trying to argue. It’s been a very helpful brake mechanism.
Marcia made a relevant point in another thread too – LOs just don’t always want to hear disclosures and have all the associated awkwardness that follows. Mine (or yours for that matter) would be quite an extreme example of that: “I’ve had about 12 years of friendship with you, but oh, by the way …”. Some things are best left unsaid!
LaR,
I think mine has never articulated for himself what he feels for me or not, so he would never be able to articulate it for me, while I think your LO might be a bit more mature in her emotional world.
Yes, some things better stay unsaid.
But Iāve got a longtime friend who disclosed to me once (years ago) and we are still friends in a relaxed and warm way.
Iād say he had to say it one time just to get it off his chest and move on.
But of course I donāt know how it was or is exactly for him.
“But of course I donāt know how it was or is exactly for him.”
It shows both a level of maturity and that he genuinely liked you as a friend, that he pushed through that and did his part to keep the friendship going.
Mila and LaR,
Mila: I know you’re resting. Hope you feel better. If you happen to see this …
If I’m reading you correctly, are you two trying to figure out if your LOs have romantic/sexual feelings for you? You have no inkling at all? With my guy friend, I had some idea before he said something. He got a little huggy. I remember noticing it. I was still surprised by what he said but it didn’t come out of complete left field. Same with LO-lite. I was surprised by what he said and that he said something at all, but, again, it didn’t come out of left field. He’d been a little flirty, a little touchy, a few compliments. I suspected there might be something there … but as I’ve written a million times ( :)) people can be flirty. It doesn’t mean they’re going to do anything beyond that or even want to, so I didn’t take it super seriously.
Hi! One of the things that’s been said on this site a lot is that once you disclose, the limerence transitions from something that’s living in your own head to something that exists in the real world and involves another person. When something exists only in your own head, you retain complete control over the outcomes – it certainly might not feel like you’re in control at times, but ultimately you are. But once some words have been said out loud and a second person is involved, then you are no longer in complete control of what happens next – now control over the next step completely belongs to the other person, and control over everything that happens downstream from that next step is divided between you and the other person.
In my case, disclosure was not something I planned out ahead of time – it just happened. Things had gotten to a point where I felt like I just HAD to, it was such a strong compulsion that I just did it without thinking or premeditation. I remember one of the driving factors in my disclosure being the fact that it was a couple of days before Christmas and because of the holiday it was going to be 4 whole days before LO and I would see each other again, and that amount of time felt completely intolerable to me – which looking back is crazy, but I think most of us here can probably understand. At that time, I felt like I couldn’t afford to let another moment go by without telling her how I felt and trying to find out how she felt – whereas of course there was no actual urgency at all, I could have controlled myself and let the moment pass, knowing that I could always disclose later but I could never undisclose once I did it – but again at that moment, in the mindset I was in, I felt like I just had to do it and had to do it RIGHT NOW.
I think partly it was the fact that for much of my life I had been so shy and anxious that I had gone from crush to crush in high school and college without ever telling a girl that I had feelings for her or asking her out – the only two actual relationships in my life (SO and my only girlfriend prior to SO) happened because in both cases the woman decided to take matters into her own hands and literally just started kissing me – I was so insecure that girls could be throwing out the most obvious signs of interest and I just couldn’t believe that they really wanted to be with me. I actually remember in senior year of high school this girl in my class, who’d been trying for months to get me to pick up on her signals, gave an impromptu speech in front of our whole English class about how I was the most wonderful and attractive guy ever and would make an amazing partner. I liked her and thought she was really cute and fun and smart and sweet and would have loved to go out with her, but even after that I just couldn’t bring myself to ask her out – I somehow STILL was able to convince myself that she was just being friendly and couldn’t possibly really mean it. So literally the only sign that was obvious enough to break through to me was my first girlfriend and then later my SO getting tired of all the friendly talk that was going nowhere and just grabbing me and kissing me passionately.
So when I felt such strong feelings for LO three years ago, and was pretty dang sure she had feelings for me too (I mean, she was texting back and forth with me from sunup to sundown every day and finding constant excuses to come by my office and talk to me and was always flushed with excitement when we were together and giving me plenty of pretty obvious looks…) I had this feeling that for once in my life I needed to be brave enough to just say out loud what I felt for her and ask what she felt for me – I felt like I just had to do it in order to be able to live with myself, and to not spend the rest of my life always wondering and feeling like a coward.
So I told her over the phone, and I was being kind of apologetic about it, like “I know we’re friends and I know we’re both married but I have to admit I’ve really caught feelings for you and I’m thinking about you constantly and my feelings are just really strong” and at first she hedged – she was like “it’s ok, it happens, you don’t have to be embarrassed, we can stop texting and talking all the time if that’s what you need” and I could have just left it at that and was tempted to, but I just had to know – I asked her “I’m sorry, I just have to ask or I’ll spend the rest of my life wondering… has this all just been friendly chatting for you, or do you actually feel something too?”
There was a pause, silence on the other end of the line for a few seconds . Moment of truth… she exhaled and the words “oh my god yes” tumbled out of her with an urgency like she’d been waiting to say it forever and finally could let it out. We talked more, both of us amazed to find that the other one felt the same way. I told her that from the first time we’d met 5 years prior that I’d always really liked her, that I was happy any time I got to spend time with her at work, just loved her energy and loved being around her. She was incredulous – “really? all this time?” I asked her how long she’d felt something for me – she told me in detail about the first time she’d ever met me, how she started asking the other girls at work what they knew about me, what I was like, if I was married. It turned out she’d been harboring a pretty serious crush on me for 5 years, slowly working up the courage to get closer, little by little, over the course of years, never imagining that I’d actually fall for her but just wanting to spend a time around me.
It was the most amazing feeling ever for a few minutes. And then reality hit like a ton of bricks – now that we’d spoken about this thing out loud, we could never ever go back to the way things were before. We had eaten the fruit from the tree and now we knew we were naked. There was no more plausible deniability between us, no more being able to blithely enjoy our charged “friendship” – we’d crossed into territory where the only two choices were to continue on in some sort of affair, or cut ties completely. I think we both realized it at the same time and the realization was crushing.
We agreed to each other then that we could never have an affair, and that the only thing we could do was stop talking – we both knew it was the only right thing. We lingered on the phone for what seemed like forever, not wanting to end the call but eventually knowing we had to, perhaps to never have a real conversation with each other again. I spent the rest of the afternoon in my office alternating between numb and devastated, crying more than once. Those few minutes of ecstasy after mutual disclosure came with the most painful comedown imaginable.
Of course, we weren’t able to fully contain it once it was out of the box. We lasted a day before finding an excuse to text again. Then she remember that we shouldn’t and we stopped. Then a few days later we started again, then stopped again. Then somehow we decided we shouldn’t text but it was ok to talk in person “as friends” so she started coming by my office every day to talk with me alone – that was probably the most dangerous time, I’ve written here in the past about how incredibly close we came to plunging into a physical affair. After a really close call when we were both at the last thread of our self-restraint, she said we really truly needed to cut all contact except for the bare minimum needed for work.
After that, she’d walk by my desk over and over during the day, our eyes would meet and the pain and sadness in her eyes was so deep. I was crying every day. We started talking on the phone again, agreed that it was too dangerous to be together in person but we could still be friends and talk on the phone. We had all kinds of crazy conversations about “what if this happened?” “would you ever do this?” and then reminding ourselves that it was wrong to have an affair and we had to stop thinking that way. One day she told me that she wanted to come see me again in my office, that she wasn’t sure if she could control herself or not but still wanted to see me anyway. I said ok, I think we can control ourselves. She never came – instead she stopped talking to me completely for a month and started looking for other jobs, wouldn’t even look at me when we saw each other around.
I gave up on ever knowing her again. Then suddenly she reappeared, wanted to talk again “with boundaries of course”. Things quickly got affectionate again and the boundaries started to evaporate. Then she pulled away again, accepted another job, put in her 2 weeks notice at our place, then withdrew it 2 days before her last day, just couldn’t pull herself away from me. And since then we’ve carried on in an emotional affair – alternating between talking all the time and being super close emotionally and other times not talking at all for weeks or months. We got more and more enmeshed in each others’ lives, we started doing all of her homework together, me supporting her through school as researcher and brainstorm partner and editor just like I had with my wife when she was in grad school.
It’s been a roller coaster of emotions the whole time – it’s felt so good at times when we’ve been close and connected and affectionate with each other, and so devastating when she gets overwhelmed with all of it and shuts down emotionally and her walls go up. And even during the good times, there’s always that feeling of wanting more, of it not being enough, because of course really the desire is for pair bonding and we’re settling for a lite version of it that’s enough to keep us engaged but not enough to fully satisfy.
Anyway, that’s how it turned out in my case. Of course, it could have turned out any number of other ways, once I’d said my part and given control over to her. She could have been horrified and told HR and ended my career, could have told my wife and ended my marriage, could have told her husband and gotten me shot. She could have burst into my office and started kissing me and we could have gone off the deep end and blown up everything and everyone in our entire lives. Probably the best thing for me would have been if she’d just kindly but politely told me that we couldn’t talk any more and stuck with it, but she couldn’t do it, and neither could I – so now we’re 3 years into an emotional affair with enough shared history and bonding that going NC would feel almost like a divorce, but continuing on like we’re doing now for the rest of our lives also feels impossible.
Anyway, I’ll write a bit more later this week about the rest of our lives recently – this post ended up being quite a lot longer than I intended it to be already. But that’s my disclosure story – I guess the main thing to take from it is that disclosure is a heavy, heavy thing with life-changing consequences, and the direction of the life change is not up to us once we disclose and turn our future over to another person.
Lost in Space,
Thanks so much for sharing your disclosure story in depth. Very helpful to those of us newer to the site than when you told it in the past. I’ll respond more when I have time, as lots you have said is very interesting and resonates.
Marcia,
Mila and I are kind of on two questions:
1. If one discloses, what are the chances of getting a truthful answer, and why or why not? (Mainly talking about my LE in the examples)
2. After a disclosure (not nec of limerence, just of attraction), what examples do we have of a friendship either working or not working, and why? My last reply to Mila was about a different friend (not an LO) who disclosed to her and it was kind of ‘one and done’ and they then went on being friends. Kind of a contrast to your friend recently where you feel he is trying to make you jealous, play with your feelings etc.
The only mutual disclosure I’ve had (we’ve discussed before) led to permanent NC. But I didn’t have a long prior friendship with her, so it is not that comparable to my LO or to Mila’s.
I just happened to see this discussion. I disclosed as you know and feelings/attraction was not mutual. To answer a couple questions above.
First, I believe her when she said she did not feel attraction. I do not believe she is lying. But, my LO is also a fairly extreme avoidant personality and so I also believe she does not experience attraction the way I do. To her attraction is conditional and transactional based on circumstances and our circumstances were not right for her to feel romantic attraction. On the other hand I do think she felt a pull of closeness and warmth towards me that led her to engage with me at a level that felt romantic to me. When I disclosed LO did claim feelings of only friendship but her behavior towards me did not change in the months immediately following disclosure so it was very confusing to me and for a long while I did think she was lying. Now that I understand her attachment style better I understand her to be telling the her truth.
Second, it absolutely ruined any level of friendship I might have had with her even if I could have a friendship with her. I tried for a while to spark a friendship but the mismatch in emotion between me and her and our mismatch in attachment styles, (I am highly anxious) makes us completely incompatible. If I push, she pulls away. And if she pushes and I respond, she then pulls away. I have wondered if she was more reciprocal in a friendship and provided me attention to a certain level, could I manage a friendship. Maybe, but I think it would be emotionally exhausting because of the desire of always wanting more. I am not sure my limerent self would be satisfied with just part of her. As of right now we are LC and totally disengaged from one another, I do not talk to her in any personal manner, and my LE is as quiet as it had ever been. But the LE still simmers and it would be easy to have it flare up at any moment should I start to re-engage her.
Last, I waffle back and forth on the whether disclosure was a good thing or not. It was risky in my situation, being her boss, and things could have gone more sideways. But I do believe it was a limerent relief to me. I don’t think I would have made it through with my sanity if I had not disclosed and would be caught in an extreme push pull scenario with LO over the last 3 years plunging me into deep constant rumination. On the other hand it did completely ruin any level of personal friendship with LO. Maybe that would not be true of all LOs but it is of mine and I lament that a lot.
LaR,
“2. After a disclosure (not nec of limerence, just of attraction), what examples do we have of a friendship either working or not working, and why?
I definitely agree with just disclosing attraction. Do not go the route my male friend did and initiate a heavy, “feelings” conversation. It’s very awkward. And it’s too much, too soon. I’d reserve those conversations for if you start dating and things are moving into a relationship.
But my question is … do you not already have some idea if she’s into you? Can’t you tell? I guess that’s what I don’t get when I read posts on here. Usually, I have some idea. Now, I can’t tell the depth and extent of it, of course. But the last 3 disclosures I’ve experienced (over the course of many years) … they weren’t a complete surprise.
“Kind of a contrast to your friend recently where you feel he is trying to make you jealous, play with your feelings etc.”
He is acting differently than he did before the disclosure, but I also think I’m seeing another side of him that I hadn’t yet seen. That I don’t really like. I see a need for orbiters, for excessive female validation that gives me the ick. And I think he keeps them orbiting and enjoys the “what if?” Which makes no sense to me. If you like one of them, make a move. Yes, they’re all available.
“It absolutely ruined any level of friendship I might have had with her even if I could have a friendship with her. I tried for a while to spark a friendship but the mismatch in emotion between me and her and our mismatch in attachment styles, (I am highly anxious) makes us completely incompatible. If I push, she pulls away. And if she pushes and I respond, she then pulls away.”
Very interesting take Speed. I feel like you’re LO and my LF are related..
Often times I think I felt the desire for LF like I did because I loved being in the company of an attractive and younger female co-worker. Who seemingly loved my attention and didn’t mind the age-gap. I also blame it on the fact she was the one who I first met after the fallout over LO and so I transferred some of those limerent type feelings over. Even though I never felt the same limerent-like pull towards LF.. Our conversations could be so warm and engaging at times and it would be so confusing to me because even after disclosure, I could not or did not want to believe she couldn’t be feeling anything towards me. Like how is it possible we will only ever be just friends?
Have you ever asked LO if she is a people pleaser? Often times LF would blame her issues on being a people pleasing type person. Usually they are the type who are well attuned to other people’s emotions and can identify well with. They also can be a needy type who crave acceptance and validation from others. Over time I clearly began to see this with LF and while we haven’t been on the best of terms lately, it’s still kind of obvious she likes my company when I make time for her. Even though overall it means nothing. Because she feels nothing. This is my biggest hurdle in dealing with her now.
MJ,
“I could not or did not want to believe she couldnāt be feel anything towards me. Like how is it possible we will only ever be just friends?”
Obviously, I can’t speak for LF … but this is how it was with my guy friend. Do I like talking to him? Yes. He’s very smart and on some things I value his opinion and we have a conversational rapport and could talk for hours. Did I at one point feel emotionally close to him? Yes. I don’t know that I thought of him as a BFF but a pretty close friend. But the physical component wasn’t there. It’s not that I didn’t think about it. He’s a guy. But I didn’t have any compelling desire to want to take it further physically.
I think it’s possible to have pieces and parts of something.
“But my question is ā¦ do you not already have some idea if sheās into you? Canāt you tell? I guess thatās what I donāt get when I read posts on here.”
Marcia,
Let’s get this bit out of the way first – I have no right to know or moral want to know in my position (partnered). But let’s just suspend that for a second and deal with your question. With my previous LO, I didn’t know but my instinct was 70% yes. I took action to find out and was right. With this LO it is fairly similar but more 60%. But that 60% = ‘has or has had some feelings’, not ‘is mutually limerent’ (I know she isnt that)
But the fact it, we (men) normally don’t *know*. The signals – for a man – of strong friendship and of attraction get blurred and
can be read either way. If me alone saying it isn’t enough, look at what Speedwagon, Lost in Space, MJ, Adam (just some other LwL males off the top of head) say about the similar uncertainty they felt. ‘My side’ just aren’t good at telling.
I heard what you told me before about the more physical or sexual signals or conversational topics being the big ‘tells’. But the woman I disclosed with mutually never gave me any of those tells, and yet was definitely interested when the disclosure happened.
LaR,
“āMy sideā just arenāt good at telling.”
Fair enough. When my male friend and LO-lite disclosed, the both said they weren’t sure. But … there’s a big caveat to that. I was intentionally being obtuse with my male friend. Maybe obtuse isn’t the right word. But I wasn’t trying to do anything to open the door. With LO-lite … I held back because it was a work situation. But there were still moments where I was trying to open the door with him. I flirted with him and I complimented him a few times on his physical appearance. I never complimented my male friend.
“I heard what you told me before about the more physical or sexual signals or conversational topics being the big ātellsā. But the woman I disclosed with mutually never gave me any of those tells, and yet was definitely interested when the disclosure happened.”
I can’t definitively tell you what every woman will do. But haven’t you ever watched two people and you can tell there’s a flirtation going on or some kind of exchange of energy but you know one or both to be partnered? I remember being at a job and I was talking to this female friend and a male co-worker walked by. And it was obvious they were into each other. He didn’t even say anything to her. Just directed all his energy/attention at her and she reciprocated and they stared at each other (my presence ceased to exist) and he winked at her and walked past us.
I don’t think it ever got past that stage but I’m pretty sure he knew she was interested.
Marcia,
“I held back because it was a work situation.”
There must be literally millions of cases of this ‘holding back’ going on in the world at any one second in time. If not because it’s a work situation, then because the crush is married/partnered.
So many people have become experts at holding back or hiding what they really feel. It’s the way of the world.
Or maybe the person doing the holding back is shy, and sends mixed signals as a result.
Or – take the opposite – the many cases of those who love to flirt for fun or tease a person but would have no intention of following through.
With all that going on, it is no wonder it is difficult to read the signals of ‘what’s real’, when so many people are faking it!
“havenāt you ever watched two people and you can tell thereās a flirtation going on or some kind of exchange of energy but you know one or both to be partnered?”
Great question. Yes – I can usually spot that dynamic a mile off between two people – (but big caveat) as long as I’m not involved!
LaR,
“There must be literally millions of cases of this āholding backā going on in the world at any one second in time.”
Well, to be honest, he wasn’t giving me much to work with at first. And I don’t flirt anymore unless I get a clear signal. As a young woman, you can be reasonably sure flirting with a man will be well received. But I’m older now. I’m cautious about throwing it out there.
“Or maybe the person doing the holding back is shy, and sends mixed signals as a result.”
I’m extremely shy around men I like. But I was still able to pick up on what he was doing and respond to get things going. I’m talking here about situations where one or both people is partnered. Where you can’t be as direct. Most people don’t come in like a freight train. They do a little, you do a little, they escalate a little, you escalate a little … etc. So I’d say someone who wants you to escalate is probably going to do or say something to help you out.
“Or ā take the opposite ā the many cases of those who love to flirt for fun or tease a person but would have no intention of following through.”
Yes, that’s very true.
“With all that going on, it is no wonder it is difficult to read the signals of āwhatās realā, when so many people are faking it!”
I don’t know that people who like to flirt are faking it. They just like the attention. But, no, they’re flirting is not a signal of interest or intention. And that can be confusing.
“Great question. Yes ā I can usually spot that dynamic a mile off between two people ā (but big caveat) as long as Iām not involved!”
I still think you ‘d have an inkling or a sense of it.
Flirting, compliments (on your appearance), touching. And how do they interact with you? It should be a little different than how they interact with everyone else.
(I know you’re going to say some people do all of what I posted and it means nothing or that some people do none of it and it means something. And that’s true. They’re general guidelines.)
Hi Bewitched,
I could almost hear your cogs turning as I read your post. Rambling is just flow of thoughts , it’s a good thing.
“covert ops to see whether he was flirting as hard with everyone else……… Iād never get to the truth about that because Iāll never know the truth. It unknowable”
Yes it’s not worth ruminating as we will never truly know.
Yet, I am sure he knows he was special to me and not ‘one of many’.
How so the difference?
My LO used the word “special” about me, but is that really true ?! I will never know.
I do think he, and maybe more common in men, that they are more ‘in the moment’ of pleasure / thrills/ connection, and able to move on and not get stuck .
That is my feeling.
( Don’t come for me male limerents out there)
I got stuck with the special person connection moments and he didn’t and was able to just pocket them and move on.
Of course, I still will wonder if he is struggling too and misses me.
Now I’m rambling…
ā My LO used the word āspecialā about me, but is that really true ?! I will never know.
I do think he, and maybe more common in men, that they are more āin the momentā of pleasure / thrills/ connection, and able to move on and not get stuck .
That is my feeling.
( Donāt come for me male limerents out there)ā
This nagged at the back of my mind!
I think itās not a man/woman thing, itās simply a non-limerent/limerent thing. Non-limerents can have special feelings and enjoy them, maybe even suffer a bit of pain that it cannot be, but they can acknowledge reality and move on without getting stuck.
My LO2 most certainly had some feelings and thought I was special, he even told me so, but he never got as hooked on it as me. He knew I wasnāt available and older than him, and he wanted a family , so he moved on to look for someone else, as is the healthy thing to do.
I think itās because he isnāt someone who gets limerent in this all-consuming way we do, not because heās male.
I hope you had a cosy and wonderful Christmas!
Did you send holiday greetings ā¦?
Imho,
“ā My LO used the word āspecialā about me, but is that really true ?! I will never know.
I do think he, and maybe more common in men, that they are more āin the momentā of pleasure / thrills/ connection, and able to move on and not get stuck .
That is my feeling.”
I agree with this. Men are very much of the moment. It doesn’t mean they’re lying, but what they said was true in that moment. And then the moment passes. And the moment can have no connection to the rest of their lives. There’s a lot of compartmentalization. And I’m generalizing and make a sweeping statement, for course, but I have to believe this is true of a lot of LOs.
Marcia,
Your statement applies to women as well, limerent or not. Itās a common human natureā¦. Momentary emotions/thoughts come and go over 7-8 thousand times each day for an average person.
Also, the word, āspecialā, is as vague as any other adjectives, which literally means different things to different people. What does āspecialā quality comprise of?
Marcia,
“Your statement applies to women as well, limerent or not. ”
I think men are better at detaching after big moments. Or filing them away and moving on.
Marcia,
I tend to agree with you without any surveyed data.
Through LwL, Iāve learned that limerent men and women are the worst in emotionally/mentally detaching themselves from their big LO, MOSTLY even without ābig momentsā, let alone with oneāļø !
In casual dating/fwb, both men and women, limerent or not, can detach fast, since Glimmer of a higher degree (6 ā¤“ļø) is missingā¦.
Iām waiting for the moment when youāre 100% detached from LO-liteā¦ š!
Snow,
“Through LwL, Iāve learned that limerent men and women are the worst in emotionally/mentally detaching themselves from their big LO, MOSTLY even without ābig momentsā, let alone with oneāļø !”
Yes, we hang on too long.
“In casual dating/fwb, both men and women, limerent or not, can detach fast, since Glimmer of a higher degree (6 ā¤“ļø) is missingā¦.”
Well, there’s a caveat to that. My sample size is small, and I don’t know if these guys are limerents or not, but I’d say it’s not uncommon for men to have a woman in their past who they’re still fixated on to some degree. The “one who got away” holds some eerie grip. I can think of two guys in their early 50s right off the top of my head who have this maladay. š With one, this was a woman from 2 decades ago. But he never processed the loss.
“Iām waiting for the moment when youāre 100% detached from LO-liteā¦ š!”
That’s going to be a tough act to follow. Not so much for him per se but how he made me feel.
No, I have no “new dudes” on the horizon. I’m getting ready. Give me about a month or two.
Marcia,
āYes, we hang on too long.ā
Thatās why I canāt thank enough the (un)intended savior who handed me a ātoolā (an envision) to totally extinguish my last LE ember, which would certainly continue, god knows , for how longā¦
Last winter holiday, I went into hard depression while clinching my finger not to send ET a holiday greeting (I didnāt); this year, itās a piece of cake without any kind of sentimentality in meāļøIām truly liberated š
āWell, thereās a caveat to that. My sample size is small, and I donāt know if these guys are limerents or not,ā
My sample size was small, too (less than 8~10 over 8 years? I canāt remember their names but a vague face). From my impression, most of them are non-limerents.
ābut Iād say itās not uncommon for men to have a woman in their past who theyāre still fixated on to some degree. The āone who got awayā holds some eerie grip. ā
Yes! When some male-limerent were suck in, they stuck in LE longer and more severe, like LO#1 & 4 (they both told me after 17 & 3 yrs, respectively). I always felt sad that I couldnāt help itā¦ š
āThatās going to be a tough act to follow. Not so much for him per se but how he made me feel.ā
I think/hope there will be other men down the road who would make you feel the same way nowā¦
āNo, I have no ānew dudesā on the horizon. Iām getting ready. Give me about a month or two.ā
Try/do your best with little/NO expectations. Building an emotional shield ā Stoicism, before you venture out, so you can savor a manās sensuality without getting hurt, no matter what he says or doesā¦ āļø(Watch the French version of āLady Charleyās Loverā beforehandā¦ I felt like a lesbian when I was watching itā¦ the actress does not look stunning to me, but earthen Frenchā¦ )
Snow,
“Last winter holiday, I went into hard depression while clinching my finger not to send ET a holiday greeting”
I thought about doing that over Christmas. For a very brief moment and then thought: Am I losing my mind? I’m not going to contact him.
“Yes! When some male-limerent were suck in, they stuck in LE longer and more severe, like LO#1 & 4 (they both told me after 17 & 3 yrs, respectively). I always felt sad that I couldnāt help itā¦ š”
I’m not talking about limerence. I don’t know if I’d even say these guys were necessarily limerent. They’d moved on after these relationships (and they were in actual relationships with these women as opposed to things being unrequited/unconsummated). They weren’t in contact with these women anymore and had no intention of being in contact with them. Things were over. Had been for years. But there was some woman still holding some kind of space in their psyche and they hadn’t totally let her go. Oh, I can think of a third man like this.
“I think/hope there will be other men down the road who would make you feel the same way nowā¦”
I have a lot of mixed feelings about it. I’m not sure I want to go there again. Not on that level.
“so you can savor a manās sensuality without getting hurt, no matter what he says or doesā¦ ”
Oh, I don’t think I can. Not if I’m really interested. The only way I can do that is if I feel neutral. As in: I don’t care if I ever see this guy again. As I wrote before, who wants to hook up with someone under those circumstances?
Marcia,
āI thought about doing that over Christmas. For a very brief moment and then thought: Am I losing my mind? Iām not going to contact him.ā
Solute to you to have resisted it! The idea crossed my mind once in the evening and I had a horrible detailed nightmare that night about sending holiday-greeting to ET ā¦. My Unconscious always found the worst narrative to show me a possible āhorrorā. After that, no more thought about it; the consideration of politeness should be let go in the light of LE, even if LO was good one overall.
āIām not talking about limerence. I donāt know if Iād even say these guys were necessarily limerent.ā¦ But there was some woman still holding some kind of space in their psyche and they hadnāt totally let her go. ā
Thatās what I referred to when I saw LO#1 17 years after I left, and XSO before he got remarried 5-6 years after our divorce. XSO is non-limerent, and he had 4 PA flings after our engagement before the wedding. I donāt know any other menās experiences on this, except one of my limerent friends.
āI have a lot of mixed feelings about it. Iām not sure I want to go there again. Not on that level.ā
Iāve said my opinion on this before, but you argued with me fiercely. I thought you could feel what you wanted to feel by yourself ā validate your own worth/essence. But you insisted that feeling can be given only by an LO. So I wish there would be another big LO dropping in your path. š¤
āOh, I donāt think I can. Not if Iām really interested. ā
It is extremely hard to practice Stoical ways in romance, but it will help reduce expectation anxiety/pain, better appreciate our chance/limited time with a lover or a BP. (I donāt want to make any man a LO again and be hugely disappointed later.)
āThe only way I can do that is if I feel neutral. As in: I donāt care if I ever see this guy again.ā
For the rest of my life, I will NOT deal with any man I can feel only neutral. I believe I can do it (sensually enjoy or ravishā¦), even if and especially when deeply caring whether I see him again or ā¾ļøā¦. Thatās the toughest challenge ā respect and embrace human-nature laws.
āAs I wrote before, who wants to hook up with someone under those circumstances?ā
Yep. Iām with you here. Iād rather to stay alone than dealing with both Glimmer ā”ļøand compatibility ā®ļø under 7ā¦
Snow,
“After that, no more thought about it; the consideration of politeness should be let go in the light of LE, even if LO was good one overall.”
You were thinking about contacting him out of politeness? I was thinking about it to see if he’d respond. But I decided against it.
“Thatās what I referred to when I saw LO#1 17 years after I left, and XSO before he got remarried 5-6 years after our divorce. XSO is non-limerent, and he had 4 PA flings after our engagement before the wedding. I donāt know any other menās experiences on this, except one of my limerent friends.”
I’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to here, but with the one man I’m thinking of … He and this woman live in the same area. He knows what happened to her — who she married, etc. He might even run into her every blue moon. Idk. But he’s not trying to run into her and he didn’t contact her when he was between marriages, to my knowledge. He’s not trying to get back together. But for whatever reason, the ending of that relationship is one he hasn’t totally “put to bed,” so to speak.
“Iāve said my opinion on this before, but you argued with me fiercely. I thought you could feel what you wanted to feel by yourself ā validate your own worth/essence. ”
I still feel the same way. I just don’t know that I want to get near that feeling again. It taps into some part of my personality I’m not sure I want to get near. What I mean is level 10 interest.
“It is extremely hard to practice Stoical ways in romance, but it will help reduce expectation anxiety/pain”
Particularly when sex is involved.
” I believe I can do it (sensually enjoy or ravishā¦), even if and especially when deeply caring whether I see him again or ā¾ļøā¦. Thatās the toughest challenge ā respect and embrace human-nature laws.”
It sounds like you’re saying contradictory things here. I’m not following your meaning. But, personally, if I am limerent (or very strongly attracted), the physical and emotional components are tied together and I won’t be able to keep it casual. Even if that’s all that’s being offered and I know it ahead of time.
Marcia,
āYou were thinking about contacting him out of politeness? I was thinking about it to see if heād respond. But I decided against it.ā
You šÆ did it greatā¼ļø I understand your thoughts, but Iām 100% over with my last LE, so only reason I would send a greeting is politeness (he doesnāt observe Christmas). And whether he responds or not does NOT make any difference in my LE-š, indifferent mind, which has no resentment for this LE, from which I even benefited with my own work on cptsd.
āIām not entirely sure what youāre referring to here, but with the one man Iām thinking of ā¦ā
I was referring that I seemed to haveāruinedā LO1ās life (Platonic, mutual LE) based on what he told me 17 years later, despite he married a nice woman and had a 10 year old son by then. I could tell heās not lying while telling me what happened after I moved on. It made me feel so āguiltyā and so sad that I never contacted him again. To this day, I donāt even know whether he is dead or aliveā¦.
āI still feel the same way. I just donāt know that I want to get near that feeling again. It taps into some part of my personality Iām not sure I want to get near. What I mean is level 10 interest.ā
I was positive that you still feel the same way, and Iām sure it ātaps into some part of your personalityā or your cptsd, or something elseā¦ No need to tell here š
Can a limerent choose level of interest/LE? I thought it just spikes to whichever level on its own, especially with a highly imaginative mind. If you donāt want to reach a Level 10, how are you going to cut it down (not to 7 ā¤µļø)ā
āParticularly when sex is involved.ā
Even without sexāļø Donāt underestimate the strength of emotional/mental/spiritual LE that many of us here experiencing, which could be stronger than sex/oxytocin bonding. Sex with fwb were the best, but no LE was ever produced in my dating experiences.
[I believe I can do it (sensually enjoy or ravishā¦), even if and especially when deeply caring whether I see him again or ā¾ļøā¦. Thatās the toughest challenge ā respect and embrace human-nature laws.ā]
āIt sounds like youāre saying contradictory things here. Iām not following your meaning. ā
Sorry, my ESL was a bit blurry ā¬ļø and the Stoic way of approaching romance is hard to stomach for majority of people, let alone limerents.
I mean only when Iām highly emotionally and mentally attracted (grade 8 +) for the person and vice versa ā I can sense accurately whether itās mutual, I could get into a savoring physical intimacy (not your usual 1-2 hour dating, watch the Chatterley movie of the French version, 4 hours!)ā¦ If Iām not attracted enough, then I would NOT want to touch even the manās hand no matter how esthetically heās beautiful.
āBut, personally, if I am limerent (or very strongly attracted), the physical and emotional components are tied together and I wonāt be able to keep it casual. Even if thatās all thatās being offered and I know it ahead of time.
I was talking about your scenario. Not highly EXPECTING /WORRYING about possible outcome from an ongoing dating/relationship, but still doing your best to love and to be loved, is NOT called āCasualā. The Stoical way is serious with one difference ā ānot-hanging-on-outcomesā while giving and taking love as best as you canā¼ļø
Just imagine and meditate in advance that the next day after your marathon date, in theory with a tiny possibility that one of you will possible be hit by a car or a heart attack may strike, then what are you going to do for the last 12-24 hours (for Level 9+ in both ways)ā Worrying about whether and when heād ask you for the next date?
I know by definition that LE high is heavenly higher than non-LE love; but LE anxiety/pain is also more sky-rocking āviolentā. During last LE, I didnāt like the feeling that my body was not in my control, and I felt like in a dream floating around at work and at home. Thatās not a healthy way of living. š
Is living/loving fully ā doing oneās best, one day at a time as if there were no tomorrow, really that hard to understand and manageāš¤.
Iām still learning and practicing Stoicism everyday; I have limited time left on this earthā¦ When I passed a day according to my authentic self, I felt no regret or fear of any kind, but internally settled š
Snow,
“It made me feel so āguiltyā and so sad that I never contacted him again. To this day, I donāt even know whether he is dead or aliveā¦.”
Oh, wow. That sounds really heavy. I’m confused. Your LE was mutual ?
“I was positive that you still feel the same way, and Iām sure it ātaps into some part of your personalityā ”
I don’t want to open that door again. At least not right now.
“Can a limerent choose level of interest/LE? I thought it just spikes to whichever level on its own, especially with a highly imaginative mind. If you donāt want to reach a Level 10, how are you going to cut it down (not to 7 ā¤µļø)ā”
I think it would have stayed at a manageable level if I hadn’t responded to him. I can feel when I’m starting to get overly fixated. Then it’s time to back it up.
“Even without sexāļø Donāt underestimate the strength of emotional/mental/spiritual LE that many of us here experiencing, which could be stronger than sex/oxytocin bonding. ”
That’s true. But sex does kick it up a notch.
“Sex with fwb were the best, but no LE was ever produced in my dating experiences.”
I don’t agree. There’s nothing like hooking up with an LO.
“I mean only when Iām highly emotionally and mentally attracted (grade 8 +) for the person and vice versa ā I can sense accurately whether itās mutual, I could get into a savoring physical intimacy (not your usual 1-2 hour dating, watch the Chatterley movie of the French version, 4 hours!)”
I watched it. There were things about it I liked. If I compare it to the 2022 version … It’s not afraid of silence between the characters. And it’s truer to the book (the 3rd version, anyway, which I’m reading). The first couple of times they hook up, she’s not fully into it. It takes her a while to get used to him, to get comfortable. Which makes perfect sense. And the husband has more dimension, he’s less cartoonish.
But it’s too long and I wasn’t crazy about the male lead (I didn’t dislike him but he wasn’t my idea of the gamekeeper) and I thought it was odd how they barely kiss. And like a lot of French movies, it lacked dramatic tension. It just kind of goes on and on … and then ends. And the ending was unclear. Are they going to meet up later? Are they lying to each other because they both know they can’t really be together but can’t bring themselves to admit it? I wasn’t sure.
The 2022 version … also takes its time to get them together, which is fine. I don’t mind slow. The male lead is more appealing. I can see myself showing up every day to look at the chickens if he’s the gamekeeper. š And I thought the sex scenes were hotter. I thought the two of them had a lot of chemistry. And I like the actress. She played Princess Diana in The Crown. She’s quite good.
But I disliked the modernization of their affair. Unlike in the book, she initiates. The writers are just trying to be PC, with the idea of consent. A couple of lines of his dialogue don’t wring true to me in terms of the time period. They made him just a touch too sensitive. But overall I prefer this version. (I know you will disagree. š )
“ā¦ If Iām not attracted enough, then I would NOT want to touch even the manās hand no matter how esthetically heās beautiful.”
Exactly. When it’s over, you just want to go. š
“I was talking about your scenario. Not highly EXPECTING /WORRYING about possible outcome from an ongoing dating/relationship”
I’m going to date/talk to several guys. I’m going to take my time and see who I like and who likes me and who shows up consistently. And if they start being flaky/flim flammy … next! š
“During last LE, I didnāt like the feeling that my body was not in my control, and I felt like in a dream floating around at work and at home. Thatās not a healthy way of living. š”
That’s where we’re different. Part of me likes to feel out of control. Because most of life feels so controlled.
Marcia,
āOh, wow. That sounds really heavy. Iām confused. Your LE was mutual ?ā
As I mentioned before that all my crushes/romances/small āLEsā were either PA or EA reciprocated, except the last one LE#7, which can be defined as the only authentic LE. LE1 was platonic EA reciprocated, but it did not last long for me due to the barrierā¦
āI think it would have stayed at a manageable level if I hadnāt responded to him. I can feel when Iām starting to get overly fixated. Then itās time to back it up.ā
Yeah, itās a smart way to go ā acutely sensing oneself before making any further moves; then wisely choose what to do consciously. But this should not apply to two available and compatible parties. Any man, partnered or not, can glimmer for us, but if there is a SO present, we could manage not to let us slip into another LE.
āThatās true. But sex does kick it up a notch.ā
Not necessary, if sexual connection with them is inadequateā¦
āI donāt agree. Thereās nothing like hooking up with an LO.ā
Again, I disagree. Itās probably your LE affections that made sex a bigger deal; then itās emotion bettering/intensifying sex, which is never an āisolatedā physiological act. That proves the human brain is the sexiest organ: if it doesnāt feel sexually aroused first, the body just goes āmechanicalā. Itās the mind driving sexual energy within to flow more (if you know more about energy theories and its practices). I speak only based on my experiences.
āI watched itā¦. The first couple of times they hook up, sheās not fully into it. It takes her a while to get used to him, to get comfortable. Which makes perfect sense. And the husband has more dimension, heās less cartoonish.ā
Totally agree with you here. A lot of Hollywood characters are cartoonish or just too glamorous, not realistic enough.
āBut itās too long and I wasnāt crazy about the male lead (I didnāt dislike him but he wasnāt my idea of the gamekeeper) and I thought it was odd how they barely kiss. And like a lot of French movies, it lacked dramatic tension. It just kind of goes on and on ā¦ and then ends. ā
I donāt have particular gamekeeper images in my head, I thought he looked more peasantry which would be realistic. I forget about kissing situations, I thought that sheās deprived sex so went to him, vice verse; itās not love at first sight, a typical romantic story. Then their physical intimacy gradually increased both their emotions.
I like French movies much better precisely because they donāt give all those Hollywood dramatic tensions, but naturally go on and on without solutions, thatās more realistic. I just enjoy savoring things, which canāt be done in speed.
āAnd the ending was unclear. Are they going to meet up later? Are they lying to each other because they both know they canāt really be together but canāt bring themselves to admit it? I wasnāt sure.ā
My memory is that Lady Chatterley went to the mine factory to see what life would be like. She did leave her husband (or her husband disowned her) and joined him, thatās D.H. Lawrence. In reality, itās may not last long; they donāt have much in common to talk about (not sure if he reads), although she could make herself a coal-mine workerās wife eventually.
āThe 2022 version ā¦ also takes its time to get them together, which is fine. I donāt mind slow. The male lead is more appealing. I can see myself showing up every day to look at the chickens if heās the gamekeeper. š ā
I could help laughing š¤ when you said you could go watch chickens everyday if your LO were a gamekeeperā¦ I raised 8 hens for eggs in my childhood (during the exile), so Iām truly fun of them and other farm animals.
āAnd I thought the sex scenes were hotter. I thought the two of them had a lot of chemistry. And I like the actress. She played Princess Diana in The Crown. Sheās quite good.ā
Iāll have to find time to check it out. I never watched the Crown.
āBut I disliked the modernization of their affair. Unlike in the book, she initiates. The writers are just trying to be PC, with the idea of consent. A couple of lines of his dialogue donāt wring true to me in terms of the time period. They made him just a touch too sensitive.ā
I really dislike the modernization or PC of movies adopted from the historical events or classical literature. This cancel culture is going overboard, in terms of changing history of everything. āGone With Windā is even banned.
{āā¦ If Iām not attracted enough, then I would NOT want to touch even the manās hand no matter how esthetically heās beautiful.ā
āExactly. When itās over, you just want to go. šā
Whatās over? If theyāre not attractive enough, there would be no going out with them at all. I am talking about ādatingā NOT from apps (but from active living), from which I totally retired 1.5 dozen years ago.
āIām going to date/talk to several guys. Iām going to take my time and see who I like and who likes me and who shows up consistently. And if they start being flaky/flim flammy ā¦ next! šā
Thatās the way to go! Why will you be ready in two months, not now? Have you changed your work yet?
āThatās where weāre different. Part of me likes to feel out of control. Because most of life feels so controlled.ā
If digging deeper, one would find that most of life IS āout of control.ā But most people wear a social mask, so outsiders donāt get to see any laundry of each mind. š
The LE kind of āout of controlā in neural/cellular level did not feel good at all to me, because I felt sick with my physical body ā foggy, unfocused, anxious, nervous, dizzy, depressed, or lethargic. I donāt comprehend why anyone would want/choose to stay āout of controlā.
I want to be able to choose, with a logical mind and passionate heart, a true carefree state, which would not lead oneās reality ādisarrayā but bring one ecstatic joys, conscious euphoria, steady contentments, and profound sense of connection with body, mind and spirit of oneself, w/o SO. It is POSSIBLEāļø
Snow,
“LE1 was platonic EA reciprocated, but it did not last long for me due to the barrierā¦”
Because he was married?
“But this should not apply to two available and compatible parties. ”
It does apply. It’s what you wrote about. Limerence makes me tense and nervous and checking my phone a million times a day. Obviously, if they’re partnered … back it up. But even if they’re not … back it up. I don’t know if i want to go there with someone again.
“Not necessary, if sexual connection with them is inadequateā¦”
It doesn’t matter if it’s inadequate (unless it’s just absolutely terrible). If you get into bed with an LO, it takes things up a notch. There’s no way for it not to.
” Itās probably your LE affections that made sex a bigger deal; then itās emotion bettering/intensifying sex”
Exactly.
“A lot of Hollywood characters are cartoonish or just too glamorous, not realistic enough.”
That’s another thing the French do well. The sex and nudity are just part of the story. It’s not this big, sensationalistic, look-at-how-many-hours-a-week-the-actors-worked-out kind of thing. In America, it’s all about appearance and … well, aerobic contortion.
“I donāt have particular gamekeeper images in my head”
I do. And it’s not that dude. š That’s one strange thing about the French: their leading men (minus Alain Delon). How did Gerard Depardieu become a star? He looks like a guy who would fix your plumbing. š
“I forget about kissing situations”
The kissing in the American version is sexy.
“itās not love at first sight, a typical romantic story. Then their physical intimacy gradually increased both their emotions.”
I agree. It’s like that in the 2022 version as well. In the book, she definitely notices him when she meets him. She’s watching him. But she’s kind of intrigued that he seems so observant. It’s not a physical attraction at that point.
“I like French movies much better precisely because they donāt give all those Hollywood dramatic tensions, but naturally go on and on without solutions, thatās more realistic. ”
I don’t mean dramatic tension all the time, but a sense of some story arc. As in: Where is this going?
“My memory is that Lady Chatterley went to the mine factory to see what life would be like. She did leave her husband (or her husband disowned her) and joined him”
That might be the book. I haven’t finished it. In the French movie, he’s quit as gamekeeper and she’s trying to convince him not to work in the mines and allow her to buy him a farm. And I can’t tell if she plans on joining him in the future. She’s not joining him right then.
“In reality, itās may not last long; they donāt have much in common to talk about (not sure if he reads), although she could make herself a coal-mine workerās wife eventually.”
I agree. In the 2022 version, he’s reading James Joyce. That seemed like a modern addition (though I haven’t finished the book, so I’m not sure). In the 2022 version, he’s sensitive and consent-acknowledging and reads James Joyce but is masculine. It’s like some romantic fantasy book trope. š
“I raised 8 hens for eggs in my childhood (during the exile), so Iām truly fun of them and other farm animals. ”
Did you have a gamekeeper? š Probably not. It sounds like you were gamekeeper.
“Iāll have to find time to check it out. I never watched the Crown.”
I thought it was ok. It’s not great but it’s entertaining. But she was good. She’s the early Diana, when she meets Charles and marries him.
“This cancel culture is going overboard, in terms of changing history of everything. āGone With Windā is even banned.”
I agree. GWTW is a very racist movie but that’s why we need to watch it. To see how attitudes were.
“Whatās over? ”
The sex.
“If theyāre not attractive enough, there would be no going out with them at all. ”
Sometimes you get those “why not?” type of offers.
“Why will you be ready in two months, not now? ”
I put on a little weight. You don’t get what you want, you eat brownies. But I’ve been good for several weeks now. Dieting and working out. But it takes time. Gotta get the package ready. š
“Have you changed your work yet?”
No
“I donāt comprehend why anyone would want/choose to stay āout of controlā.
Lets you know you’re still alive. š The rest of living is pretty predictable. Pretty staid.
Marcia,
āBecause he was married?ā
No. He was single, 21; I was underage; so it had to be aborted. Again, among all my crushes/LEs, only ET was married. I always backed up when I found the other side had a gf/SO, for my selfish reasons š
āIt does apply. Itās what you wrote about. Limerence makes me tense and nervous and checking my phone a million times a day.ā
After sending you the last post, I did realize that my theory applies to two available parties. The challenge lie in keeping ārational/coolā infatuation without slipping into the altered state of mind. .
āObviously, if theyāre partnered ā¦ back it up. But even if theyāre not ā¦ back it up. I donāt know if i want to go there with someone again.ā
So even if theyāre available, worries about a potential, negative outcome would refrain you from giving your best effortsā Is it a rule/advice of/for the modern datingā
āIt doesnāt matter if itās inadequate (unless itās just absolutely terrible). If you get into bed with an LO, it takes things up a notch. Thereās no way for it not to.ā
Thatās your or a majorityās experiences, there are always exceptions. āNarcā LO#6 provided top-notch sex and I ended up punching his face; his personality was awful.
āThatās another thing the French do well. The sex and nudity are just part of the story. Itās not this big, sensationalistic, look-at-how-many-hours-a-week-the-actors-worked-out kind of thing. In America, itās all about appearance and ā¦ well, aerobic contortion.ā
You summarized one aspect of American entertainment superbly ā unnatural, ungrounded and unrealistic!
āI do. And itās not that dude. š Thatās one strange thing about the French: their leading men (minus Alain Delon). How did Gerard Depardieu become a star? He looks like a guy who would fix your plumbing. šā
Yes, Gerard Depardieu is unappealing to me, even when he was much younger. I just watched 2022 version of Lady Chatterley. I like American gamekeeper a bit better but still like French Lady Chatterley more, sheās more earthen and less nervous. Many French/British actors/actresses are less pretentious than American ones.
āThe kissing in the American version is sexy.ā
A bit too much and unnatural to me; I canāt sense well their chemistry. They seemed not relaxed enough. Things developed too fast, or/and a bit abrupt.
āIn the book, she definitely notices him when she meets him. Sheās watching him. But sheās kind of intrigued that he seems so observant. Itās not a physical attraction at that point.ā
Itās been a long time since I read the book, so canāt remember its details. The whole movie feels choppy (not smooth) for me. I guess Iām used to all those mini series of BBC, slow like snails.
āI donāt mean dramatic tension all the time, but a sense of some story arc. As in: Where is this going?ā
I like subtly dramatic scenes or physical senses depicted mostly in books through masterfully chosen words. Americans seem to have less patience in doing anything, including savoring movies ā they want to know results fast!
āThat might be the book. I havenāt finished it.ā
The American version has made it a āhappy endingā by dropping a farm on his hand š itās not how the book and other version end.
āI agree. In the 2022 version, heās reading James Joyce. That seemed like a modern addition (though I havenāt finished the book, so Iām not sure). In the 2022 version, heās sensitive and consent-acknowledging and reads James Joyce but is masculine. Itās like some romantic fantasy book trope. šā
Heās a bit too sensitive as a gamekeeper back in that era, too many PC details, making Lady Chatterley almost self-willed or demanding. š
āDid you have a gamekeeper? š Probably not. It sounds like you were gamekeeper.ā
Having a gamekeeper during the exile in a āSiberian like villageā, where there was no running water (having a well), no electricity (using oil lamp), no indoor bathroom (but a outhouse toilet)ā But I was a 8-10 yrs joyful gamekeeper of eight hens š and one handicapped, dwarf rooster š ā jumped into our huge cooking wok and burned his wings, legs, and skin thus never fully grown but still could proudly crow. I took care of my neighborās dog full-time as well.
āI agree. GWTW is a very racist movie but thatās why we need to watch it. To see how attitudes were.ā
If without duality, comparison or contrast, how do we know good vs. bad, black vs. while, progression vs. stagnationā
āSometimes you get those āwhy not?ā type of offer.
I tried that experience during my app dating time and later some memories grossed me outā¦ š¤¢. Iāve graduated from an experimental period, for goodā¼ļø
āI put on a little weight. You donāt get what you want, you eat brownies. But Iāve been good for several weeks now. Dieting and working out. But it takes time. Gotta get the package ready. šā
Yes, you want to look athletic and confident šŖ After my surgery even without eating junk food, I gained some weight by PT exercises or carbs. Extra weight tends to make me feeling tired easily.
āLets you know youāre still alive. š The rest of living is pretty predictable. Pretty staid.ā
The middle or later stage of LE physical symptoms are not ābeing aliveā at all (did you read the latest post?). Feeling more alive, sharp, energetic or ecstatic takes place during infatuation stage soon after the Glimmer, during which the rest of living, even if predictable, is brightly colored and electrifiedā¦ especially with those hopeless romantics whose imaginations š often run wild with little/no boundaryā¦ why notāļø š
My feeling of being alive post of the last LE is so much steadily stronger, more joyful/sensuous, sharp/lucid mindedā¦.
Without working at school, I donāt need to take naps and can still stay up lateā¦ marvelous! š
Snow,
“Again, among all my crushes/LEs, only ET was married.”
Yes, my dear, but you have a number of dudes in the catalogue and some of them have decimal points … it’s complicated and confusing. š
“The challenge lie in keeping ārational/coolā infatuation without slipping into the altered state of mind. ”
Can that be done? Idk. It’ll be something new to try. And I’m going to pay a lot of attention to the other person’s behavior and how they treat me. Instead of hyper-focusing on how I feel about them. Because without the former, the latter doesn’t really matter.
“So even if theyāre available, worries about a potential, negative outcome would refrain you from giving your best effortsā Is it a rule/advice of/for the modern datingā”
No. I just don’t want to get obsessive and weird.
“āNarcā LO#6 provided top-notch sex and I ended up punching his face; his personality was awful.”
That doesn’t surprise me. I KNOW YOU WON’T AGREE … š … but it is possible to have hot sex with someone you wish wouldn’t speak to you. Lest he ruins the moment š
“You summarized one aspect of American entertainment superbly ā unnatural, ungrounded and unrealistic!”
Hot sex in films is based on the characters and the story. The audience has to want the characters to get together because they’re invested in what’s happening.
“Yes, Gerard Depardieu is unappealing to me, even when he was much younger.”
I never got him. Now, Bridget Bardot? Probably one of the most gorgeous women to ever grace this planet. So is Catherine DeNeuve.
“A bit too much and unnatural to me; I canāt sense well their chemistry. ”
I thought it was hot. The second time they get together … when he kicks the door in. I had to get out my smelling salts for that one. š
” I guess Iām used to all those mini series of BBC, slow like snails.”
I don’t mind slow but I don’t like unnecessary plot developments about characters you could care less about. Which is how so many series are on Netflix, for example. I’d rather have 4 good episodes than 10 that go on and on.
“The American version has made it a āhappy endingā by dropping a farm on his hand š itās not how the book and other version end.”
No. In the French version, he accepts her offer to buy him a farm. But it’s unclear if they’re going to end up together.
“Heās a bit too sensitive as a gamekeeper back in that era, too many PC details, making Lady Chatterley almost self-willed or demanding. š”
I agree. It’s totally inserted modern dialogue, but when she tells him not to call her “m’lday” and he asks, “You want a coarser treatment from me?” … I had to get out my smelling salts for that, too. š
“But I was a 8-10 yrs joyful gamekeeper of eight hens š and one handicapped, dwarf rooster š ā jumped into our huge cooking wok and burned his wings, legs, and skin thus never fully grown but still could proudly crow. I took care of my neighborās dog full-time as well.”
What happened to the animals once you were 10? You no longer lived there ?
“If without duality, comparison or contrast, how do we know good vs. bad, black vs. while, progression vs. stagnationā”
Exactly.
“Iāve graduated from an experimental period, for goodā¼ļø”
That’s exactly what it is. An experimental period. I can’t say if I’m completely done with it. I’m not necessarily out looking for it now but sometimes it’s not bad to sharpen one’s skills so one is prepared when a good offer shows up. š
“After my surgery even without eating junk food, I gained some weight by PT exercises or carbs.”
Is that because you couldn’t do your walking?
“The middle or later stage of LE physical symptoms are not ābeing aliveā at all (did you read the latest post?). ”
That’s true.
“My feeling of being alive post of the last LE is so much steadily stronger, more joyful/sensuous, sharp/lucid mindedā¦.”
I don’t feel that way at all. It’s not that there aren’t things I’m looking forward to or enjoy but they don’t compare to the high of limerence.
“Now, Bridget Bardot? Probably one of the most gorgeous women to ever grace this planet. So is Catherine DeNeuve.”
Marcia
I know you’re talking movies, but I have to interject..
You forgot about my LO.
The absolute most gorgeous Woman to EVER grace this planet!!
šš
MJ,
“You forgot about my LO.
The absolute most gorgeous Woman to EVER grace this planet!!
šš”
I can’t go back and forth with you on this anymore.
“I canāt go back and forth with you on this anymore.”
Marcia
C’mon Dear, don’t be a crab. You know I’m only trying to lighten the mood. I needed an opener.. š
I have a NG update I need to post later to you and LaR about. I probably already know your answer but I’ll try anyway. Stay tuned. Don’t go falling asleep now..
MJ,
“I probably already know your answer but Iāll try anyway. Stay tuned. Donāt go falling asleep now..”
Don’t ask the question if you already know the answer. š
I only want to see TWO posts from you. TWO. I’ll write it again. TWO.
1.) You have a DATE and TIME set up to go to the dinner and one of these chicks — I can’t tell them apart; they’re all blending together š — has said YES. (Not “maybe,” not “I’m busy and we’ll discuss it,” not “possibly by the end of next week.”) And the date and time are within the next week.
OR
2.) You’ve gone on the date and you want to provide the details.
Got it? š
“I only want to see TWO posts from you. TWO. Iāll write it again. TWO.”
Did you say two?
Like as in āš»?
Ok fair enough. But she didn’t say yes and she didn’t say no. She said hopefully.
Yesterday being Monday I txtd her and asked her out for this coming weekend. This is still for the ongoing hopeful pizza date. Her first response was, “Hopefully.. I’ll get back to you” So I knew this already was about the kid..
About 10 minutes later, she replied,
“Sorry I’m not kid free like most of the people that try hanging out with me. Maybe thats why I’ll be single for good. I don’t fit in anyone’s schedule. Maybe one day when my kid is bigger I’ll have the time but now it’s just hard”
My response was,
“Don’t beat yourself up. I have a lot holding me back especially with Dad. I’ll hit you up again in a few days and see if anything has changed. It isn’t terribly hard for me to make arrangements for Dad but sometimes there are challenges. I understand your kid is a different story. A lot of times I just want a change of scenery. Its been awhile since I’ve gone out..”
That comment garnered me another šš» but my guess is it will turn into a no. So you can tell me what I probably already know. I just wanted you to read some of her actual words, so you know how it sounds from her angle. To me its blatant indifference but I feel like she wants to go but has issues finding a babysitter. I’m somewhat aggravated but not really surprised. This is the MJ way anymore but on the plus side, it green lights me to the other Latina I’ve been talking with. (On to the next person as you’d say) I’m going to have to find out if she’s available.
I also went back into the Bank tonight and had a nice long chat with the Teller Girl I’ve been talking to behind the counter there for the last 6 months. (You know, that one I asked out before.)
It was near closing time and there was hardly anyone in there, so I chose to walk up to her at her window and chat her up. It was so friendly and even borderline flirty. She was trying to guess my age and somehow guessed right but I know she already knew that because she’s asked for my ID before. (Like duh.. ) We talked about our holidays and New Years expectations. A little about work, our families. I complimented her about her hair, told her she’s really nice and I appreciate how she always takes good care of me there. I mean I feel like we just vibe so well. Like I could be her little weirdo Dude she has on the side. Whenever before I leave she always says to me, “It was so nice seeing you again..” Like I so just want to ask her out again because it feels so freaking right but I know she’s taken. Why does it have to feel so gosh darn right when I know the other person is taken? Is it just the allure of knowing they belong to someone else? Like it feels so right, then it can’t be wrong?? Or is just that they are going home to someone knowing they should be happy or fulfilled there but are turned on by the fact, that guys like me are coming in to the bank to hit on them. I mean I made it pretty obvious. Afterall she’s been with her guy for 10+ years, has had kids with and still hasn’t married him. What does that tell you?
MJ,
You already know the answer. It shouldn’t feel like climbing Mt. Everest to get someone to agree to a date and time and actually show up. If it does, walk. After the FIRST time you ask.
I don’t mean to be a pain in the ass, but I think I told you months ago this wasn’t looking good. Any kind of flim-flam answer … walk. Anything less than a yes AND she shows up. WALK.
Bank girl: We’ve also talked about this. Flirtation and chatting do not always equal intention. I’d say they usually don’t. You already have your answer from her. She’s not available.
I’m not going to help you with this other one. It’s time you navigate this on your own. It’s not rocket science. š
Daaaaaamnnnn Girl, thats it? That’s all I get? You’re practically pushing me out of the plane. Off the bridge. Off a cliff. Down the mountain. Off the diving board. Into the deep end. I need you as my wing-girl. (Not that Marni chick on YouTube)( although I do find her kinda hot, lol.. š) That could be your other side-gig. š
I get it. Accept nothing less than a yes. (That could be a t-shirt) Anything less than a yes AND she shows up. WALK.
Like, you’re just about no bs are you? See this tells me you probably are quite attractive to be able to move on like you do. I don’t think I have this gift. Or luxury to feel I’m worth something to anyone. Like maybe I did more at one time but I’m older now and life is so different post divorce. For a lot of guys I feel like this is different. Especially for morons like me that love to hover. I know you would probably kick me countless times if you could actually be my wing girl and see how I bandy about with the ladies. I can only imagine how you and LF would get along. I’d get sore as f—with the 2 of you kicking me all the time. š
Btw, you called her Bank Girl. I was lmfaooooo š
Although I know you’re not wrong. I just love talking to her.
“Honestly, I get so many generic texts, if I had more of an expectation of people, Iād be consistently disappointed.”
Hijacked that from your reply to Mila. It’s genuine. I like it. Your dark sense of humor. It too would make for a great t-shirt.
I need to find you that anti-affirmation calendar I saw not too long ago. One of the best ones I saw on there reminded me of you. It said “Let’s agree to disagree and quietly resent each other”
Perhaps that applies to a certain person you know on here.. š
Or is it āniggledā at the back of my mindā¦ worry about this expression also niggled or waggled at the back of my mind
Hi Mila,
Hope you and other LwLers have had a good (or at least bearable) Christmas.
I can’t find the context for your post, but ‘niggled (not waggled) in the back of my mind’ is the right expression. We use ‘waggle’ quite rarely but it is usually about literal physical movement.
I am struggling to think how I’d ever use the word now … in fact, the main use I remember is “waggle the joystick”. For anyone reading this born after about 1990 that will just sound like pure smut. But it is a reference to an item used to control characters in computer games in the 80s / 90s. If I wanted the character to move fast, I would move the stick quickly from side to side (‘waggle’ it).
It’s my pleasure š
LaR,
I used waggle as a joke, actually;) I didnāt know whether to use ānaggedā or āniggledā. And the post I referred to was above- that it stuck in my mind that Imho thought a certain ability to let go of āspecial momentsā is a male ability while I think itās an ability of non- limerents, regardless if they are male or female. Not sure though.
Thanks though! Do you think ānagā or āniggleā is the right word?
Mila,
Had you heard ‘waggle the joystick’? Or if not, what use of waggle? It is good second language knowledge to have even heard the word, anyway!
‘Nagged’ or ‘Niggled’ are both OK in your sentence. Nag refers to behaviour or words towards another person, niggle refers to stuff that winds us up internally, but they can be interchanged.
FWIW, I also think this ability to let go of ‘special moments’ is more of a limerent – non limerent thing than a male-female thing. But I’d let Imho’s point pass if it had loads of caveats in the wording ‘In general, men find it easier … but not all men’ etc etc
āLots of caveatsā, that sounds like you, LaRš(you get one of my precious kissing emojis that are usually reserved for Imho!)
Thanks for clarifying!
I have a vague memory of āwaggle his eyebrowsā or āwaggle a tailā, but usually I have no idea where these English words crop up from in my brain. They just appear.
What an honour and a privilege to receive that emoji š©š
Tails wag, tongues wag, but I am still struggling with what waggles! According to an internet search, ears and wings!
I like the random word analysis chat ! To me waggle is more erratic, subtle and funnier than wag.
I would tend to use the word to fit something in, like a wire connection in a device.”waggle it a bit to see it works better” Babys bottoms waggle when they crawl and golfers waggle before they take take a shot.
And if you can waggle your ears that’s a great party trick !
š
“And if you can waggle your ears thatās a great party trick! š”
More material for the open mic segment at the 2026 Agricultural Show šØāš¾ šš
Wag, waggle, nag, naggle! Nig, niggle? Gig, giggle?
Oh my.
šš
I was born well before 1990, but the term āwaggle your joystickā would definitely inspire some Beavis chuckles! I donāt think I ever say āwaggle.ā āWiggle,ā yes.
Hi Mila,
My comment was quite broad, high level, taking out limerence as a concept.
I believe there is some evidence that the male brain and female brain are different. For example after sexual relations women are more likely to be emotionally connected afterwards and this goes back to primitive gene drivers etc.
I’m sure DrL wrote in one of his blogs something about this, which on a quick check I could not locate it.
Marcia used the word “compartmentalise” which is very apt.
This is one viewpoint I read :-
“The male brain tends to be more efficient to lateralize and compartmentalize, which has the advantage of making him more task-focused. The female brain has more [nerve] connections and constantly cross-signals and takes in more, so it tends to see and feel more than the male brain,” Dr. Michael Durian says on WebMD.
This is obviously very generalised and we are ultimately complex individuals ( lots of caveats here !)
I’m sure there are counter viewpoints to this and it would be good to have Dr Tom give his neuroscience perspective.
Also hope you ( and everyone who celebrates) are having a lovely time over Christmas.
Hi Imho,
I see. Could very well be that men are better at compartmentalizing, also their priorities in life might sometimes be different than ours.
I notice that you havenāt answered my question about holiday greetings, but by no means should you answer it if you donāt want to!;) š
Mila, I don’t mind you asking, but nothing to report. Let’s see for NY š
I see! Actually, New Year seems a more important event than Christmas, or how do you feel generally?
I know for example that my LO2 doesnāt celebrate Christmas much, so Iāll text him for new year instead.
But Iām actually not sure if it signifies anything if someone doesnāt text or write. Holidays are so busy and some people just think of their families in that time without meaning to be neglectful. I think itās better not to put too much significance on holiday greetings. If someone wants contact, they can text or call any time in the year, I guess.
I hope you are doing something nice on New Yearās eve! Iāll have to work and then celebrate with my family.
Mila:
“Holidays are so busy and some people just think of their families in that time without meaning to be neglectful. ”
But that’s exactly why it does mean something. If you’re not in their immediate circle and they reach out. If you’re not right in front of them and they reach out. It’s like if they remember your birthday. They probably had to remember the day and set a reminder on their phone.
Now, some of this is context. I got texts from 2 friends I am not all that close with. And I have a feeling they were going through their contacts and sending out generic Christmas texts/gifs. There was no personalization to it or attempt to interact with me and ask : How are you? What’s up with you? What do you have planned for the day? Or share what they were doing. It’s still nice but not the same as someone checking on you. (And I agree with you that no one is entitled to that or is owed that, but it’s still a nice thing.)
Norma:
Glad you had a nice time with your LO.
I don’t understand his response to your AIDS comment. From what I understand (and I am by no means an expert) … the disease is problem for both men and women, particularly in countries where prevention and medication are an issue.
Marcia,
honestly, I donāt appreciate these generic texts or postcard-like Merry Christmas pics some people send. When I send a Christmas text I try to make sure thereās something personal in it that shows Iām sending it just to them.
Of course itās nice and a warm gesture to reach out at Christmas, but I just meant it doesnāt mean someone pushed you out of their friend circle and their thoughts because they donāt send anything.
Still, it might be a sign of someone thinking less of me than I think of them if thereās nothing forthcoming. Iām not sure about putting too much importance on holiday greetings though. Itās like my SO almost forgetting our wedding day every year, but being a great SO all year long, which is surely more important.
Mila,
“honestly, I donāt appreciate these generic texts or postcard-like Merry Christmas pics some people send. When I send a Christmas text I try to make sure thereās something personal in it that shows Iām sending it just to them.”
Honestly, I get so many generic texts, if I had more of an expectation of people, I’d be consistently disappointed. I consider anything generic that doesn’t make any effort to make conversation. Sometimes it’s just, for example, a link to an article I might like to read. That’s it. It’s not nothing, but it’s not much.
“Of course itās nice and a warm gesture to reach out at Christmas, but I just meant it doesnāt mean someone pushed you out of their friend circle and their thoughts because they donāt send anything.”
I wouldn’t think they’d pushed me out of their friend circle but I would think they weren’t concerned enough to extend the extra care.
“Iām not sure about putting too much importance on holiday greetings though. Itās like my SO almost forgetting our wedding day every year, but being a great SO all year long, which is surely more important.”
But if the anniversary means a lot to you (and I’m not saying it does) and he knows that because you’ve told him, then remembering is important.
Hi Marcia,
I think I got the word generic wrong, by the way.
I donāt mind it if someone sends articles or reels without comment. I also donāt mind texts that are sent to everyone on a list, but I donāt appreciate them much, thatās all. If I want to wish someone happy holidays, I write a text just for them. But people are different.
āBut if the anniversary means a lot to you (and Iām not saying it does) and he knows that because youāve told him, then remembering is important.ā
To go back to the holidays, maybe holiday greetings just mean less to them and they assume itās the same for you, because they actually donāt know if it means a lot to you or not?
Actually, Iām just arguing for arguingās sake.
I agree that if someone is important to you and you know they would be happy to get a holiday greeting, you will send it.
Mila,
“I donāt mind it if someone sends articles or reels without comment.”
I’m not a fan. (I’m talking here about this being your ONLY or almost only communication with this person. They’re not picking up the phone. You don’t see them often or ever.) It’s very, very, low -level effort, but if the person texts me something, I’ll acknowledge it. (The two friends I mentioned who sent the generic XMAS texts, I’m not close with and I hadn’t heard from in months. I looked at it as … I wasn’t expecting to hear from them at all. So it was fine.)
“To go back to the holidays, maybe holiday greetings just mean less to them and they assume itās the same for you, because they actually donāt know if it means a lot to you or not?”
That’s possible.
“I agree that if someone is important to you and you know they would be happy to get a holiday greeting, you will send it.”
This is my theory about men. If they want to do it, they will. š
Marcia,
āYes, my dear, but you have a number of dudes in the catalogue and some of them have decimal points ā¦ itās complicated and confusing. šā
Yes, some indeed had decimal points, because I barely interacted with them in person. Youād call them just āa garden variety of crushesā in my head. One or two of them actually made some impact in knowing myselfā¦ No pain, no gain, every experience was a life lesson, huge or tinyāļø
[āThe challenge lies in keeping ārational/coolā infatuation without slipping into the altered state of mind. ā]
āCan that be done? Idk. Itāll be something new to try. ā
Yes. If you (impersonal) keep your observing mind active, while the heart/doer mind surges and ebbs, you can stay in āRational Infatuationā. This applies more to a relationship building ā romance + friendship, which may not be your order currently, but eventuallyā¦ā
āAnd Iām going to pay a lot of attention to the other personās behavior and how they treat me. ā
Yes, š. But you still need/want to sincerely give, invest your time and affection. There is no free pie ever falling down from the sky to anyoneā plate.
āInstead of hyper-focusing on how I feel about them. Because without the former, the latter doesnāt really matter.ā
Exactly. I would split the focus, though: half on what I feel and why (mostly mysterious), and half on what I think and why (with reasons)ā¦ based on concrete interactions with the other side.
āI just donāt want to get obsessive and weird.ā
Yeh. Limerents, particularly with mental OCD, tend to slip into obsessive mode, internally or externally ā might be even unpleasant/uncomfortable to LO. So itās really IMPORTANT to observe oneās own mind after the Glimmer takes place and one is crushed by another human being.
Also, an observing mind may prevent one from going into obsessive or weird mode. LwL has given us many tools to observe, analyze, and empathize/validate ourselves much better. š
ābut it is possible to have hot sex with someone you wish wouldnāt speak to you. Lest he ruins the moment šā
I have 0ļøā£ interest in such a dynamic, I know you DISAGREE. Sex CANNOT be HOT if I donāt even want him to open his mouth or zip my own, which means heās either a Narc, or a gigolo, or cute dumb š¦. Iām NOT a š¦ āļø
āHot sex in films is based on the characters and the story. The audience has to want the characters to get together because theyāre invested in whatās happening.ā
Coming from āPuritan-likeā COO, Iāve never got into hot sex in films that much. Iām highly interested in characters and how they develop their hopeful romance/relationship. PG-13/14 is enough for me to imagine what could, would possibly happen. I prefer my own imagination with the given graphic clues, not details. Itās like viewing paintings/drawings vs. pictures.
āNow, Bridget Bardot? Probably one of the most gorgeous women to ever grace this planet. So is Catherine DeNeuve.ā
Bridget Bardot was too āwildā for me, DeNeuve is somewhat icy cold when young; and both are made bigger than life on the screen. I still like better Juliette Binoche and Isabelle Hebert, who can be very sexy but also down to earth and vulnerable.
āI thought it was hot. The second time they get together ā¦ when he kicks the door in. I had to get out my smelling salts for that one. šā
You just love those rough male energyā¦. I disliked to see that she initiated the actsā¦ unnatural and awkward to me.
āI donāt mind slow but I donāt like unnecessary plot developments about characters you could care less about. Which is how so many series are on Netflix, for example.ā
Thatās what happens in classical novels, my Dear! How I loved their complex stories, rich words, and my own unstoppable imaginations. During my lonely youth, only stories could reach my heart/soul and still so, more than flashy pictures. I wonder how many phantoms Iāve created through those dancing, powerful, touching wordsā¦ š
āIād rather have 4 good episodes than 10 that go on and on.ā
Very American. I donāt care much about plots, but savoring charactersā life and development, without hanging on outcomes either way. With that longing still active inside me in the past, I always preferred tragedies to comedies. There are sensational glories and beauties in sad stories, which vividly, profoundly depict human unquenched curiosity, innate vulnerability, inadvertent mistakes/woes, indulged foolishness, and quested wisdomā¦.
āNo. In the French version, he accepts her offer to buy him a farm. But itās unclear if theyāre going to end up together.ā
Youāll tell me the ending of the book. Every movie adoption gives its own interpretations.
ābut when she tells him not to call her āmāldayā and he asks, āYou want a coarser treatment from me?ā ā¦ I had to get out my smelling salts for that, too. šā
Gosh, youāre so easily swoon! š I heard that line quite clearly, and did not like its macho-ness. I simply donāt like ācoarseā in any kind of human interactions.
āWhat happened to the animals once you were 10? You no longer lived there ?ā
Yes, when called back to the city, we brought 3 hens with us for eggs; one day someone stoned my most beautiful white hen to death outside our building. That dog, Big Yellow, became the biggest in the village (eating half of my snacks/meals) and followed our horse cart for two miles on a sunny morning when we were leaving. Three days later, his owner hung him and shared its meat with other villagers. I went back to see Big Yellow a year later, a neighbor told me the sad truth, because the owner said Big Yellow was visiting his relatives in a neighbor village.
āI canāt say if Iām completely done with it. Iām not necessarily out looking for it now but sometimes itās not bad to sharpen oneās skills so one is prepared when a good offer shows up. šā
Are you talking about some specific skills in dating, according to those relationship coaches on YT channelsāš My everyday life seems to be in training of some sorts ā¦ š
āIs that because you couldnāt do your walking?ā
Oh, the other way around. Actually I had never walked so much and frequently before the surgery, my tummy got so much flatter but the hip and legs are gained muscle mass due to PTā¦ But I donāt look like that āAI womanā with the American worshiped butt š in your YT video š
āMy feeling of being alive post of the last LE is so much steadily stronger, more joyful/sensuous, sharp/lucid mindedā¦.ā
āI donāt feel that way at all. ā
Because your LO-lite and that longing are still with you. In my experiences, only LE-š was totally insufficient to make one feel what Iāve been feeling nowadays, with a wide range of strong emotions, but not the LE altered stage of mind, I donāt dream about having that high š again.
āItās not that there arenāt things Iām looking forward to or enjoy but they donāt compare to the high of limerence.ā
In the past when my longing is hidden deep inside me, I just rolled from one āLEā into another one and always felt somewhat lostā¦ Nowadays, Iām so lucid-minded, clearly-sensed, and grounded in dealing with my reality and unknownsā¦.
Compared to my āprevious lifeā, I really think I was reborn on this April 2nd, into a ānewā person, or some of my authentic essences were all liberated bits by bits ever since, making me seeing /treating āoldā, ordinary human matters with ānewā eyes šļø / hands š¤ ā¦ š
Gosh, a New Year is approaching š³ That lucky number 6ļøā£ ć°ļø šŖ· is coming into the daily lifeā¦šļøāšØļø
Snow,
“Yes, some indeed had decimal points, because I barely interacted with them in person. ”
Yes, but for a while you were labeling them as LOs … LO 2.2275. š So it was confusing.
“Yes. If you (impersonal) keep your observing mind active, while the heart/doer mind surges and ebbs, you can stay in āRational Infatuationā. ”
That’s a contradiction.
“This applies more to a relationship building ā romance + friendship, which may not be your order currently, but eventuallyā¦ā”
My hope is to take my time and get to know them. Being “into them” is great but it’s not enough.
“But you still need/want to sincerely give, invest your time and affection. ”
I will watch/match their efforts. Limerents are notorious for doing more/giving more. I resisted doing that with LO-lite and I’m not doing it again. I have to watch for that.
“I would split the focus, though: half on what I feel and why (mostly mysterious), and half on what I think and why (with reasons)ā¦ based on concrete interactions with the other side.”
Yes. Most definitely.
“So itās really IMPORTANT to observe oneās own mind after the Glimmer takes place and one is crushed by another human being.”
It’s really important to assess what’s going on. As much as you can. The situation, who the other person is. If there are red flags (or even something in your intuition that something is off), you have to back it up.
“which means heās either a Narc, or a gigolo, or cute dumb š¦. Iām NOT a š¦ āļø”
It just means you’re probably on two different pages as people or with what’s going on between you and the best way to … not keep running into those differences … is to keep the chatter limited. You can’t keep it up very long, but it can work in the short term. š
“Coming from āPuritan-likeā COO, Iāve never got into hot sex in films that much. ”
To me, it depends on how it’s done and the character development. That’s what I was trying to say. People aren’t paying to see sex. They’re paying to see sex between characters they care about.
“Bridget Bardot was too āwildā for me”
OMG. To have that kind of sexual power.
“DeNeuve is somewhat icy cold when young; and both are made bigger than life on the screen. ”
I think the chilliness can be interesting. There’s just a hint of something … idk exactly what … underneath that in Belle de Jour that she’s able to convey.
“I still like better Juliette Binoche and Isabelle Hebert, who can be very sexy but also down to earth and vulnerable.”
Of course I like Binoche. Hubert I’ve only seen in the Madame Bovary movie and I didn’t like her in it. Talk about chilly.
“You just love those rough male energy”
Yes, mam. š
“I disliked to see that she initiated the actsā¦ unnatural and awkward to me.”
I didn’t think it worked for the time. The book was written almost 100 years ago. But under modern circumstances … I think it’s fine if a woman initiates. And if I remember correctly, in the movie, he pretty much takes over from there. Which is what he should do. š
“Thatās what happens in classical novels, my Dear! ”
No. It’s Neflix wanting 10 episodes out of something that should be 5. It’s contractual obligations. Americans draw things out. Television shows that go on for 10 seasons that should have ended after 5, etc.
“I donāt care much about plots, but savoring charactersā life and development”
I care more about character development. I’m not big on plot-driven, “event” stuff that feels like it could never happen in real life (though there are exceptions). But there has to be some kind of plot or it feels like … well, a French movie. An amorphous blob. š When you’re in the hands of a gifted storyteller who’s guiding you through the story/character arcs, you can tell.
“Every movie adoption gives its own interpretations.”
They are literally discussing that she wants to buy him a farm at the end of the French version. What’s not clear (at least for me) is if allows her to buy the farm or what happens in terms of their relationship in the future.
“Gosh, youāre so easily swoon! š”
Not really. That’s why I remember the scene. š I think he then grabs part of her clothing … I can’t remember exactly what … and tells her take it off. Oh, my lands! š
“one day someone stoned my most beautiful white hen to death outside our building. That dog, Big Yellow”
I’m not following you here. You have a stoned hen and then a dog named Big Yellow.
“Are you talking about some specific skills in dating, according to those relationship coaches on YT channelsā”
Sexual skills. But it could be dating skills in general.
“But I donāt look like that āAI womanā with the American worshiped butt š in your YT video š”
She’s not AI. That’s her real butt. From what I’ve been reading/watching, a big part of that is genetics. Maybe 60%. But … you can still train to improve what you have.
“In my experiences, only LE-š was totally insufficient to make one feel what Iāve been feeling nowadays, with a wide range of strong emotions”
I do not have a wide range of strong emotions on a daily basis. Daily life can be fairly flat. It’s fairly predictable. It’s fairly routine. Now, purposeful living , depending on what it is, can provide some change to that. In a positive way. But it’s still different than LE energy.
Marcia,
Happy New Year of 2026! š
āYes, but for a while you were labeling them as LOs ā¦ LO 2.2275. š So it was confusing.ā
š youāre exaggerating here š¤ There were a bunch of them between LO#4~#5; and then a couple of them between #5~#6, in and out of the apps. Then I retired from all apps. There were 8 (w/ the long distance LO#4.5) of them made some impact in my lifeā¦.
[Yes. If you (impersonal) keep your observing mind active, while the heart/doer mind surges and ebbs, you can stay in āRational Infatuationā. ]
āThatās a contradiction.ā
Not really; because one canāt stay high/low constantly for 12 ~24 hours, for me at most 2-6 hours. Then, when the mind quiets down, use the observing mind and ask: āwhat just happened in the last 2-6 hours, why?ā¦ Did LO/date say or do something specific that had caused my mood swing, or my own reverie, rumination, (+p/-n) imaginations made them to happen?ā Once you begin to think, rationalization would calm down the nerves, whether you find answers or not, or remain in doubts.
āMy hope is to take my time and get to know them. Being āinto themā is great but itās not enough.ā
I totally agree. Just hope your dates have the similar mindset, so wonāt come and go too fastā¦ Some men and women are just shopping around for hookups in apps. š
āI will watch/match their efforts. Limerents are notorious for doing more/giving more. I resisted doing that with LO-lite and Iām not doing it again. I have to watch for that.ā
I like our COO system: give 3 big, enthusiastic shots/acts and watch how the other side responds in between. If they donāt put at least the equal efforts as yours, then walk away. š£
āYes. Most definitely.ā
I would hope that oneās thinking and feeling are most in alignment. Some āyellow flagsā are okay or can be worked out later; but one red flag could be ādeadlyā, which deserves a āinvestigativeā focus.
āItās really important to assess whatās going on. As much as you can. The situation, who the other person is. If there are red flags (or even something in your intuition that something is off), you have to back it up.ā
You just definited my āRational infatuationā and the ā¬ļø paragraph.
āIt just means youāre probably on two different pages as people or with whatās going on between you and the best way to ā¦ not keep running into those differences ā¦ is to keep the chatter limited. You canāt keep it up very long, but it can work in the short term. šā
I no longer have interests in any short term. I canāt imagine anymore (tried before) to be with someone, men or women, that I could not find something to converse (not just chitchats) with, thatās DEADLY boring and tasteful of my time! How could they be sexy or even mildly attractive?
āTo me, it depends on how itās done and the character development. Thatās what I was trying to say. People arenāt paying to see sex. Theyāre paying to see sex between characters they care about.ā
Sex is just one small/big element in any story. Iām paying money to see how charactersās mind, heart, sprit, body (in this order) develop/evolve. Sex on the screen is relevant to characters, but not to me personally; I want some room for my own imagination. Again, I prefer paintings over photos.
āOMG. To have that kind of sexual power.ā
My lady, Sexual Power is NOT the most important thing in the world, which does NOT guarantee to bring one lasting happiness or fulfillmentāļøIf you were in her shoes, you could be annoyed by excessive, unwanted attentions ā a light bulb attracts all sorts of moths and flies. šŖ° People craves or worships something is because they donāt have it, or the culture blindly glorifies it. If they are on the other side of the fence, they may envy youā¦.
āI think the chilliness can be interesting. Thereās just a hint of something ā¦ idk exactly what ā¦ underneath that in Belle de Jour that sheās able to convey.ā
I saw that movie, it chilled my bones through. Iām not a lesbian; you should ask your straight dudes in this room about their feelings of watching that movie. Iām not DeNeuveās fan at all, despite I acknowledge the beauty of her youth. Sheās got warmer as she aged.
āOf course I like Binoche. Hubert Iāve only seen in the Madame Bovary movie and I didnāt like her in it. Talk about chilly.ā
You need to watch other Hubertās movies before making a statement. She can be very passionate and intellectual.
āI didnāt think it worked for the time. The book was written almost 100 years ago. ā
Thatās what I meant: not in alignment with that era and their social norms/classes.
āBut under modern circumstances ā¦ I think itās fine if a woman initiates. ā
Have you watched the series āOutlanderā? I think the main actress did beautifully and tastefully while initiating to undress and touch her naked husband on their wedding night ā sheās from modern era, he is a big chivalrous, virgin āboyā from 200 years earlier. Theyāve portrayed an ideal married couple staying lovingly and fighting evils together for 5-6 seasons (I didnāt follow later episodes).
āNo. Itās Neflix wanting 10 episodes out of something that should be 5. Itās contractual obligations. Americans draw things out. Television shows that go on for 10 seasons that should have ended after 5, etc.ā
I donāt watch Netflix, except occasionally. I prefer BBC miniseries. āBrideshead Revisitedā was supposed to be much shorter (3-4 hour) originally, but developed into 11 hour series on set, the first very successful, long TV series in the history. By compassion, the movie version is UNWATCHABLE with that Matthew Goode. š
āI care more about character development. Iām not big on plot-driven, āeventā stuff that feels like it could never happen in real life (though there are exceptions). But there has to be some kind of plot or it feels like ā¦ well, a French movie. An amorphous blob. š ā
French movies have plots, just more slowly unfolded, the images are more arty and sensuous in many movies. There are so much more sensual, savoring scenes in Lady Chatterley, and I still canāt forget this hazy, Pink/Rosy hued āToi et Moiā air/vibe between the two lovers, contrasted by green trees and blue skies. The actressā aura appears more pinkish, rosy (not pale) and youthful in my memory , making me forget their class differences and everything else. I watched it in theater on a huge, wide screen with Narc LO#6 in 2007.
āWhen youāre in the hands of a gifted storyteller whoās guiding you through the story/character arcs, you can tell.ā
IMO, a gifted/great storyteller engages its audience to think, feel, ask and answer questions depicted by the work itself, like a great piece of literature or painting, not just straightforward telling viewers everything. Otherwise, I become passive, feeling bored or ābrainwashed.ā I have my own š§ āļø
āThey are literally discussing that she wants to buy him a farm at the end of the French version. Whatās not clear (at least for me) is if allows her to buy the farm or what happens in terms of their relationship in the future.ā
My memory is that theyāre going to get together, but I canāt remember this farm situation. Have you finished the book yet?
āIām not following you here. You have a stoned hen and then a dog named Big Yellow.ā
You asked me what happened to my farm animals. So I told you that 3 hens came back to the city with us, and my most favorite one was stoned to death one day outside our dorm building. Ideally, hens need to roam a little everyday in order to be prolific. Later, we just kept other two hens in the locked cage inside a shared kitchen all the time.
Big Yellow was our host-family adopted poppy and I fed him my human food (other villages dogs literally ate human shits from every householdās outhouse toilet/a hole on the ground under a simple wooden shack) to be the biggest dog in the poor village. 3 days after we left the village, his owner hung him for food. š¢ The villagers were direly hungry 3 months before every harvest season in August.
āSexual skills. But it could be dating skills in general.ā
I watched some coaching on TY (a lot of Matthew Hussey a while ago), learned how to recognize red flags and the Western dating rules. Then, I got tired of them, which tell you mostly what to avoid, but not how to create/build the romance tie beautifully. All the dating coaches canāt, because everyone is different, especially with that Glimmerāļø Dating not doing a straight math work, and can be harder than climbing to the Moonšāļø
Sexual skills are also highly individualistic, need to be improved or adopted with oneās partner together; there are no formula for diverse sexual energy levels, esthetic and comfortable preferences. They involve oneās familial/cultural upbringing, personality, and past experiences; not just technical that can be learned!
āSheās not AI. Thatās her real butt.ā
I was just teasing you, based on LaRās comment. š¤
āFrom what Iāve been reading/watching, a big part of that is genetics. Maybe 60%. But ā¦ you can still train to improve what you have.ā
According to my šļø, that butt size is beyond any esthetic point šā¦ I was bitting my teeth doing PT daily to heal my injuries from the fall in my Italy trip, but now I need a new set of š! size 2-4 no longer fits! š
āI do not have a wide range of strong emotions on a daily basis. Daily life can be fairly flat. Itās fairly predictable. Itās fairly routine. ā
Itās based on how a mind makes of everything one does daily. You have strong aversion against routine or predictable, I do NOT; they give me a sense of disciplinary achievement, which then make my limited āfreeā/creative time even more appreciated or stimulated. Logistical and creative activities need to be balanced for anyone, imo.
āNow, purposeful living , depending on what it is, can provide some change to that. In a positive way. But itās still different than LE energy.ā
Purposeful living definitely varies from person to person. I donāt actively pursue that LE energy; but if it hits me, Iām not going to resist it but let it spike and dip, and then analyze it, so it doesnāt spread into an uncontrollable š„ in any direction.
By doing this, I killed 4 Glimmers in the past 1.5 years. Iām still tutoring one online (before the flowery LEG set), but he causes nothing sensational inside me. Heās 37 and has a Chinese wife, I had to say hi to her, her mother, and her grandmother on the screen during a class before Christmas! š )
Iāve been enjoying my time off until tomorrow (the tutoring begins), but still wish more free time for me every dayā¦ š
Did you have a nice New Year Eve?
Typo:
āthatās DEADLY boring and Wasteful of my timeā
āDating is not doing a straight set of math work,ā
[āSheās not AI. Thatās her real butt.ā]
“I was just teasing you, based on LaRās comment.”
I still suspect AI. Fine, call me cynical.
Snow,
“š youāre exaggerating here š¤”
I’m not! š You had them card-catalogued like an old-fashioned library. š
“There were 8 (w/ the long distance LO#4.5) of them made some impact in my lifeā¦.”
Over what time period? I’m not attracted to that many men. Eight would be … over yearS, plural. Many years.
“Not really; because one canāt stay high/low constantly for 12 ~24 hours, for me at most 2-6 hours. ”
That’s probably true. Although the first time I suspected LO lite was flirting with me, it took me about 24 hours to come down off the high.
“Some men and women are just shopping around for hookups in apps. š”
I think that’s what that guy I went out with twice from the dating site was doing. He stopped contacting me after I didn’t go home with him, but I’m sure it was on the table. Now, he did reappear months later in a very, very, very low-level effort to reconnect, which I ignored. And so did the young guy. And this guy I was chatting with briefly last spring. Out of nowhere, there he was. Look who zombied himself back. Is that what it’s called? Zombieing? The only one who hasn’t is the only one I want to hear from. And isn’t that always the case?
“I like our COO system: give 3 big, enthusiastic shots/acts and watch how the other side responds in between. If they donāt put at least the equal efforts as yours, then walk away.”
I don’t know want you mean by “shout outs,” but I match what the other person is doing. Maybe do a little more to see what happens, but I am not driving the situation.
“I would hope that oneās thinking and feeling are most in alignment.”
Never! š
“I no longer have interests in any short term. I canāt imagine anymore (tried before) to be with someone, men or women, that I could not find something to converse (not just chitchats) with, thatās DEADLY boring and tasteful of my time! How could they be sexy or even mildly attractive?”
I was being a little bit sarcastic. My college LO, while an interesting person to talk to, usually eventually ended up saying something that irritated me or upset me or angered me. So, yes, it was best he didn’t talk. Just deliver what he was good at delivering. š
“Sex is just one small/big element in any story.”
Where did I write it wasn’t? My point was … Hollywood seems to think it’s all about aerobicized bodies and nudity by big stars, which it really isn’t.
“Sex on the screen is relevant to characters, but not to me personally”
Like I wrote, it depends on how it’s done. The kissing scenes in The Age of Innocence are very sexy. Again, it’s about the characters and how the scenes play out.
“My lady, Sexual Power is NOT the most important thing in the world”
It’s a big part of it. That, and/or maybe having some unique talent.
“If you were in her shoes, you could be annoyed by excessive, unwanted attentions”
I’d say she did. She eventually walked away from it all.
“I saw that movie, it chilled my bones through. ”
I liked it. It was part of the new agey style coming out of France in the 60s.
“Thatās what I meant: not in alignment with that era and their social norms/classes.”
I agree.
“Have you watched the series āOutlanderā? ”
I haven’t, no. I’m not big on sci fi/fantasy stuff. Though there are exceptions .
“I prefer BBC miniseries. āBrideshead Revisitedā was supposed to be much shorter (3-4 hour) originally, but developed into 11 hour series on set, the first very successful, long TV series in the history.”
And it worked. Good storytelling over 11 episodes. The BBC series of Pride and Prejudice in the mid-90s also worked. Six episodes. Very well done, true to the book and long enough to tell the story and let even the side characters develop.
” By compassion, the movie version is UNWATCHABLE with that Matthew Goode. š”
That version was bad! Another example of modernizing things. They had to PC it up. Make them kiss. Aside from seeing the BBC series, I’ve read the book. Are they lovers in the book? (Sebastian and Charles) The book doesn’t explicitly say. But that’s for the viewer/reader to decide.
“There are so much more sensual, savoring scenes in Lady Chatterley”
There were definitely things about it I liked. I just think the 2022 version is hotter.
“IMO, a gifted/great storyteller engages its audience to think, feel, ask and answer questions depicted by the work itself, like a great piece of literature or painting, not just straightforward telling viewers everything. ”
I agree, but you still have to feel there’s some structure to what you’re reading or watching. Some rhyme or reason or theme to what the author is showing as the characters evolve and change.
“Have you finished the book yet?”
No. I’m a slow reader and it’s a long book.
“and my most favorite one was stoned to death one day outside our dorm building.”
Why?
“3 days after we left the village, his owner hung him for food. š¢ The villagers were direly hungry 3 months before every harvest season in August.”
That’s terrible he was so hungry he had to eat his pet.
“Dating not doing a straight math work, and can be harder than climbing to the Moonšāļø”
It’s not but there are some basic things I’ve learned (which feel painfully self-evident if I really think about it). The decoding of “man speak.” š
“Sexual skills are also highly individualistic, need to be improved or adopted with oneās partner together … not just technical that can be learned!”
We’ve discussed this before. I agree with you to a certain extent, but I also think sexual compatibility is a huge factor that is there or it’s not. You can improve things, but only up to a point.
“I was just teasing you, based on LaRās comment. š¤”
I don’t know who trained the woman in the video, but I follow the Glute Guy. He’s been in the fitness world for decades, has (I think) two gyms, has written 3 books and developed the hip thrust exercise, which is now a staple in butt training. You CAN change your shape, to an extent. But it won’t happen overnight and you have to lift heavy.
“According to my šļø, that butt size is beyond any esthetic point šā¦ ”
Not according to today’s taste. Jane Fonda butt is out! š
“but now I need a new set of š! size 2-4 no longer fits! š ”
A 4-6 is still small.
“You have strong aversion against routine or predictable”
I have since I was a child. I’m always wondering: When is the real fun going to show up? This can’t be it; there has to be another layer to what is going on.
“Heās 37 and has a Chinese wife, I had to say hi to her, her mother, and her grandmother on the screen during a class before Christmas! š )”
Ugh. That would have killed it for me. š
“Did you have a nice New Year Eve?”
It was ok. How was yours?
Marcia,
āYou had them card-catalogued like an old-fashioned library. šā
I did? š³ Oh, Lord! Did I really date 660 dudes? š¤ I must have been a super human being, considering the amount of work and responsibility I had in life back then.
āOver what time period? Iām not attracted to that many men. Eight would be ā¦ over yearS, plural. Many years.ā
Of course, many years in 3 continents, my glimmer never obeyed my brain.ā¦ š But only ET could be categorized as a LO, as we talked about this before many times.
āThatās probably true. Although the first time I suspected LO lite was flirting with me, it took me about 24 hours to come down off the high.ā
You didnāt eat, sleep, shower or work within those 24 hours?š³ (I meant HIGH in every minute)ā
āI think thatās what that guy I went out with twice from the dating site was doing. He stopped contacting me after I didnāt go home with him, but Iām sure it was on the table. ā
He was a shopper.
āNow, he did reappear months later in a very, very, very low-level effort to reconnect, which I ignored. And so did the young guy. And this guy I was chatting with briefly last spring. Out of nowhere, there he was. ā
They are shopper! When unable to find a better woman, they circled back to you. They treated you as a backup, imho.
āLook who zombied himself back. Is that what itās called? Zombieing? The only one who hasnāt is the only one I want to hear from. And isnāt that always the case?ā
Idk. Havenāt been in the dating market for over 1.5 decade.
āI donāt know want you mean by āshout outs,ā but I match what the other person is doing. Maybe do a little more to see what happens, but I am not driving the situation.ā
COO did/does not use dating apps that much, but through oneās social circles. Mostly, no one is in short-term; but more for one-to-one bf/gf dating. The dating couple does not āmatchā/calculate what the other person is doing, but both sides tests the water before they fully invest their heart in.
After three ātrails/testsā, they decide to carry on further or back up. Of course, a LE is excluded here; limerent usually would not back up, but stalking LO physically or emotionally, more men than women.
[āI would hope that oneās thinking and feeling are most in alignment.āā
āNever! šā
What about a mutual LE with certain level (6+) of compatibilityā
āI was being a little bit sarcastic. My college LO, while an interesting person to talk to, usually eventually ended up saying something that irritated me or upset me or angered me. So, yes, it was best he didnāt talk. Just deliver what he was good at delivering. šā
You did not try to figure out causes behind your irritations or angers? Is out there any relationship sailing without encountering winds, rains or storms?
āWhere did I write it wasnāt? My point was ā¦ Hollywood seems to think itās all about aerobicized bodies and nudity by big stars, which it really isnāt.ā
Thatās why I rarely watch Hollywood ātrashā (not my words š¤« ) and like French and English movies much better.
āLike I wrote, it depends on how itās done. The kissing scenes in The Age of Innocence are very sexy. Again, itās about the characters and how the scenes play out.ā
Thatās Daniel Day-Lewis, heās an English/Scottish.
āItās a big part of it. That, and/or maybe having some unique talent.ā
I disagree with you here again. Youāve made it much bigger deal than it is in ordinary peopleās life. Sex is important, however emotional, mental, and spiritual connection added together can be more powerful than sex alone! Have you watched that Irish (?) movie, āBreaking the Wavesā? Itās shockingly touching with the same plot as āLady Chatterleyā.
āIād say she did. She eventually walked away from it all.ā
I knew it without knowing much about her life story. It is said that physical beauty alone on earth is more ātragicā than fortunateā¦.
āI liked it. It was part of the new agey style coming out of France in the 60s.ā
Itās too chilly š„¶ for me to forget it. There was no human warmthā¦
āHave you watched the series āOutlanderā? ā
āI havenāt, no. Iām not big on sci fi/fantasy stuff. Though there are exceptions .ā
The only fantasy part in āOutlanderā is when she briefly traveled between the two worlds through this huge stone, which rarely happened. We learn mainly the story on the other side of the domain 200 years beforehand, fascinating.
āAnd it worked. Good storytelling over 11 episodes. The BBC series of Pride and Prejudice in the mid-90s also worked. Six episodes. Very well done, true to the book and long enough to tell the story and let even the side characters develop.ā
Precisely. Theyāve produced many others based on classical literature, like Dickens, George Eliot, Sherlock Holmes, etc.
āThat version was bad! Another example of modernizing things. They had to PC it up. Make them kiss. ā
The two leading male characters are so weak and fake in their performances in comparison to the TV series.
āAside from seeing the BBC series, Iāve read the book. Are they lovers in the book? (Sebastian and Charles) The book doesnāt explicitly say. But thatās for the viewer/reader to decide.ā
I never read the book. I like books that stimulate viewersā/readersā brain and let them decide possible outcomes.
āThere were definitely things about it I liked. I just think the 2022 version is hotter.ā
I disagree. The whole movie is choppy between scenes and could not bring my mind out of the reality even just for a couple of hours. To me, it lacks the beauty of earthen and sensuous physical intimacy immersed in the luscious nature. I donāt watch any movies for some āhotā sex scenesā¦.
āI agree, but you still have to feel thereās some structure to what youāre reading or watching. Some rhyme or reason or theme to what the author is showing as the characters evolve and change.ā
Not necessarily. Do you ever go to see abstract paintings, to have your own interpretations and esthetic appreciationsā Movie is mostly about images, in great movies, images convey more meanings in depth. The less chatty, the better.
[āand my most favorite one was stoned to death one day outside our dorm building.]
āWhy?ā
How did I know? I came back from my elementary school one afternoon and found sheās lying among the scanty shrubbery under our third floor window; her neck looked like being hit by stones, probably by some naughty, jealous kids.
āThatās terrible he was so hungry he had to eat his pet.ā
Not just he and his family, but all villagers were hungry. In the presence of hunger, anything with four moving legs were treated as food, including field mouses, which I caught two once while āfarmingā and brought them back to feed my cat.
āItās not but there are some basic things Iāve learned (which feel painfully self-evident if I really think about it). The decoding of āman speak.ā šā
āMan speakā? Theyāre from the Marsā¦ š. Their brain might be wired differently? š§ How on earth MJ thinks we resented each other, while we just (dis)agreed with each otherās some views or valuesāļø
āWeāve discussed this before. I agree with you to a certain extent, but I also think sexual compatibility is a huge factor that is there or itās not. You can improve things, but only up to a point.ā
Not quite agree with you here. Itās not HUGE, although IS a factor. Youāre probably talking about sexual energy compatibility, because skills can be acquired when loving emotional/mental connects reach to a certain level (a stranger vs. a LO). More importantly, physical intimacy includes far more than sex aloneā¦
āI donāt know who trained the woman in the video, but I follow the Glute Guy. Heās been in the fitness world for decades, has (I think) two gyms, has written 3 books and developed the hip thrust exercise, which is now a staple in butt training. You CAN change your shape, to an extent. But it wonāt happen overnight and you have to lift heavy.ā
Nowadays, I donāt follow anyone or any book in working out, except PT. I to them to heal injuries, keep energy level and overall health; beyond that, I have no time or interest. I was never sporty, and canāt stand watching any kind of sports on TV, not even figure-skating anymore.
āNot according to todayās taste. Jane Fonda butt is out! šā
Again, I donāt follow Pop trends or tastes in many things, nor ever followed Jane Fonda, whatās her butt? small and tightā
āI have since I was a child. Iām always wondering: When is the real fun going to show up?ā
I didnāt know that āfunā means while growing up in COO. So I escaped into books for imaginary lives, since the reality was so bleakā¦. ā«ļø
āThis canāt be it; there has to be another layer to what is going on.ā
āIt was ok. How was yours?ā
Itās GREAT in the end. I had a bad headache yesterday morning so took a long nap in the afternoon, in which my Unconscious āpunished meā againā¦. Then I cooked a simple dinner and dined with Mom. I felt bad if I left her alone to dine on the NYE.
Afterwards, I scraped every inch of myself in a scented, hot bath as my New Year ritual; then put on my favorite lingerie, feeling totally refreshed/renewedā¦. At last I watched the New Year Ball dropping with my body mysteriously shaking in the last minute before it stepped into a new āEraāā¦
Today in the first day of 2026, my biggest issues hanging over my head during the entire last month, was unexpected resolvedā¦.Lucky š me to start ANEWāļøCOO calls it ā The new šŖ opens RED š“
āThis canāt be it; there has to be another layer to what is going on.ā
Did you ever find/read about this āanother layerā in books or other culturesā
Snow,
“I did? š³”
Yes. š
“You didnāt eat, sleep, shower or work within those 24 hours?š³ (I meant HIGH in every minute)ā”
I could function. I can always function in an LE. But I was very anxious, I had trouble sleeping, couldn’t eat and was literally doing anxiety meditations to calm down at the thought of seeing him again. My heart was beating out of my chest.
“He was a shopper.”
Yes.
“When unable to find a better woman, they circled back to you. They treated you as a backup, imho.”
Yes. And doesn’t he think I know that? He probably doesn’t care. Is just tossing it out there to see if I respond.
“Idk. Havenāt been in the dating market for over 1.5 decade.”
That’s dating in a nutshell. The less you want to hear from someone, the more you will. And vice versa. š
” but both sides tests the water before they fully invest their heart in.”
What do you mean by side test? So what I’m talking about is … and this is early in the dating process … I might initiate a text conversation instead of just responding to them. This is just an example.
“limerent usually would not back up, but stalking LO physically or emotionally, more men than women.”
You think more male limerents stalk ? I don’t think I would describe anyone’s behavior on here as stalking (thinking of the various posts, off the top of my head). Definitely hanging on too long and doing too much, but not stalking.
“What about a mutual LE with certain level (6+) of compatibilityā”
I don’t think I’ve ever experienced a mutual LE.
“You did not try to figure out causes behind your irritations or angers? ”
It was obvious. I wanted more from the situation than he did.
“Thatās Daniel Day-Lewis, heās an English/Scottish.”
I’m well aware who he is. We’ve talked about him before. š What’s interesting about those scenes is … there is no sex. No much happens physically but they’re very sexy and romantic.
“I disagree with you here again. Youāve made it much bigger deal than it is in ordinary peopleās life. ”
I never wanted to be ordinary.
“Have you watched that Irish (?) movie, āBreaking the Wavesā? ”
I haven’t, no.
“I knew it without knowing much about her life story. It is said that physical beauty alone on earth is more ātragicā than fortunateā¦.”
I don’t know her whole story. Only that she retired at 39. Which sounds young but … you can’t be the sex symbol forever, and 30 is the first nail in the coffin. But I’m sure by then she had enough money to live and could devote herself to other things. She was very active with animal rights. It doesn’t sound bad. She got a lot of attention for her uniqueness and then could later devote herself to something she cared about. She didn’t have to trudge off to a 9 to 5 every day. Doesn’t sound bad to me.
“Itās too chilly š„¶ for me to forget it. There was no human warmthā¦”
It’s been a while since I’ve seen it. I thought it was interesting that she winds up getting feelings for the guy with bad teeth. But it kind of made sense in that the husband is a bit bland.
“The only fantasy part in āOutlanderā is when she briefly traveled between the two worlds ”
You lost me at “travels between two worlds.” It’s just not my kind of show.
“The two leading male characters are so weak and fake in their performances in comparison to the TV series.”
ITA. Whereas in the BBC series … how Sebastian and Charles end up. They break your heart.
“I never read the book. I like books that stimulate viewersā/readersā brain and let them decide possible outcomes.”
In the BBC series, the father’s girlfriend talks to Charles about his friendship with Sebastian. She says the French call them “romantic friendships.” And it is. What exactly takes place between them is up for interpretation. And, to be honest, I don’t really care. It’s a deep friendship. They love each other. That’s all I need to know.
“I disagree. The whole movie is choppy between scenes and could not bring my mind out of the reality even just for a couple of hours. To me, it lacks the beauty of earthen and sensuous physical intimacy immersed in the luscious nature. I donāt watch any movies for some āhotā sex scenesā¦.”
And this goes to the heart of sexual compatibility. You and I have totally different ideas of what we think is sexy. If you were dating a guy like me, it would be a problem. It’s not a matter of discussing what you like or teaching someone what you like. It’s a matter of looking at the subject totally differently.
“Do you ever go to see abstract paintings, to have your own interpretations and esthetic appreciationsā ”
It’s not a comparison that works. Painting are one image. Movies are shifting images. There has to be some movement.
“I came back from my elementary school one afternoon and found sheās lying among the scanty shrubbery under our third floor window; her neck looked like being hit by stones, probably by some naughty, jealous kids.”
What a horrible discovery for a kid.
“Not just he and his family, but all villagers were hungry. ”
I’m surprised your chicken wasn’t stolen. Instead of being killed.
“āMan speakā? ”
The stuff they tell you to be vague so they can keep the situation going so they can get the assets.
“Their brain might be wired differently? ”
I’m convinced they all take a class at some point because they say variations of the same thing. š
“How on earth MJ thinks we resented each other, while we just (dis)agreed with each otherās some views or valuesāļø”
I don’t try to get inside his head. I don’t want to. I fear it. I’m afraid by what he admits out loud. š
“Nowadays, I donāt follow anyone or any book in working out, except PT.”
I don’t know enough about working out to not do some research on it. I wouldn’t have much of an idea where to start.
“I was never sporty, and canāt stand watching any kind of sports on TV, not even figure-skating anymore.”
I’m not sporty. But I want to follow some kind of program so I can see results.
“Jane Fonda, whatās her butt? small and tightā”
Flat
” Then I cooked a simple dinner and dined with Mom. I felt bad if I left her alone to dine on the NYE.”
That’s nice that you have some concern for her. My family is not like that. š
“Lucky š me to start ANEWāļøCOO calls it ā The new šŖ opens RED š“”
What does red symbolize?
“Did you ever find/read about this āanother layerā in books or other culturesā”
No, I’ve heard about it. Or had very small glimpses of it. Or small experiences with it. The closest thing I can relate it to is being in high school and you hear little blips and rumors about what happens at the parties the popular kids have. And it’s always so much cooler and more interesting that what’s happening with you and your dork friends. š There’s a whole other world.
Marcia,
āI did? š³ā
Yes. š
I was just teasing you (Iāve been in a teasing mood lately š¤” ) š¤
I canāt remember all the chats and arguments with every poster here since I came on board, but I do remember what facts I laid bare here; theyāre constant ā unchangeable pieces of my personal history. What/how you (impersonal) perceived or projected were your business. š
āI could function. I can always function in an LE. But I was very anxious, I had trouble sleeping, couldnāt eat and was literally doing anxiety meditations to calm down at the thought of seeing him again. My heart was beating out of my chest.ā
I had all these symptoms in my previous āLEsā, usually in the early stage soon after Glimmer, but not with the last LE, since my mind was preoccupied with the grief of losing father and the clear knowledge that it would be a dead end if I got involved with ET emotionally. So I chose to treat him as a surrogate parent, in which I was relatively calm.
āThatās dating in a nutshell. The less you want to hear from someone, the more you will. And vice versa. šā
Thatās why I permanently retired and never looked it back. Nothing there to miss! š
āWhat do you mean by side test? ā
Oh, no one sets any artificial āside testā. When interacting with another person, all sorts of unpredictable situations or āadversitiesā would come up, serving as natural ātestsā to see/reveal their (& our) characters:
1. keep oneās words ā say what one means and follow what is said/āpromisedā.
2. sincerely care for your wellbeing in front of you or ābehindā you (via texting, calls, missives).
3. genuinely apologize after making small/big mistakes, even just misunderstanding errors, but not finding excuses or blaming others/the whole world.
4. remember stuff you care about or plan to do (you praised this a lot).
5ā¦.
āSo what Iām talking about is ā¦ and this is early in the dating process ā¦ I might initiate a text conversation instead of just responding to them. This is just an example.ā
One can do it only when you donāt expect to get any response; otherwise, youād be setting yourself for anxiety āattacksā; then it wonāt be a ātestā but a ātortureā to you.
āYou think more male limerents stalk ?ā
Yes, in a Macho culture, not much in the West by comparison.
āI donāt think I would describe anyoneās behavior on here as stalking (thinking of the various posts, off the top of my head). Definitely hanging on too long and doing too much, but not stalking.ā
I agree with you on this.
āI donāt think Iāve ever experienced a mutual LE.ā
I accepted my xSOās (was 21, a junior in college) marriage proposal over a cup of coffee, which tells you how much I cared about the relationship. But we were too young, and the compatibility was less than 4 without our clear awareness. LE affection is not enough to make a relationship work or last.
āIt was obvious. I wanted more from the situation than he did.ā
He did not want to or was unable to give what you wanted? Why or why notā
āWhatās interesting about those scenes is ā¦ there is no sex. No much happens physically but theyāre very sexy and romantic.ā
I agree. Thatās plenty for me in a high romance movie. Iām from a āPuritanicalā COO.
āI never wanted to be ordinary.ā
You really believe there is some of kind of extra-ordinary romance, LE or hot-sex based, that could transcend your ordinary existence and last in this world, which could also save one from oneās discontent lotā š§
[Have you watched that Irish (?) movie, āBreaking the Wavesā? ] āI havenāt, no.ā
You may want to check it out. I was shocked first but eventually convinced its plausibility. Emily Watson was really good playing it. š
āI donāt know her whole story. Only that she retired at 39. Which sounds young but ā¦ you canāt be the sex symbol forever, and 30 is the first nail in the coffin. ā
Like Greta Garbo did, smartāļø
āBut Iām sure by then she had enough money to live and could devote herself to other things. She was very active with animal rights. It doesnāt sound bad. She got a lot of attention for her uniqueness and then could later devote herself to something she cared about. She didnāt have to trudge off to a 9 to 5 every day. Doesnāt sound bad to me.ā
Sounds like that she contributed much more to the society than the mysterious/isolated Garbo did! š
āItās been a while since Iāve seen it. I thought it was interesting that she winds up getting feelings for the guy with bad teeth. But it kind of made sense in that the husband is a bit bland.ā
I donāt remember those details, just her icy cold face. š„¶ Could bad teeth be a barrier in a romance or an affair?
āYou lost me at ātravels between two worlds.ā Itās just not my kind of show.ā
You can symbolically view the protagonistās (in her 40s) modern life as boring as a āhellā with her ex-husband for over a dozen years in a college and then a sudden grade 10 LE, but in another domain (no one knew how she was mysteriously telegraphed), in which this heroic young man was smitten with her, and they love (were deeply in love with) each other during the whole series. Later, she had to choose which world she wanted to stayā¦. I learned a lot about Irish history and culture through the movie.
āWhereas in the BBC series ā¦ how Sebastian and Charles end up. They break your heart.ā
Totally! š¢
āIn the BBC series, the fatherās girlfriend talks to Charles about his friendship with Sebastian. She says the French call them āromantic friendships.ā And it is. What exactly takes place between them is up for interpretation. And, to be honest, I donāt really care. Itās a deep friendship. They love each other. Thatās all I need to know.ā
We discussed this before, and I totally agree with you; w/o sex, that kind of deep romance is enviableāļø
āAnd this goes to the heart of sexual compatibility. You and I have totally different ideas of what we think is sexy.ā
Yepāļø I simply canāt appreciate American womenās āsexyā appeal or behaviors on screen (as well as Italian and Spanish kindsā¦). Northern Europeans ones are more elegant, subtle, enjoyable to watch š
āIf you were dating a guy like me, it would be a problem.ā
Oh my dear, I would not dream it for the whole universeā¦ šØ
āItās not a matter of discussing what you like or teaching someone what you like. Itās a matter of looking at the subject totally differently.ā
Youāre talking about instinctual, animalistic sex ā§ļø; Iām talking about the tango with Aphrodite š š + Apollo šŖššµ
āPaintings are one image. Movies are shifting images. There has to be some movement.ā
I agree movies are a series, moving images. But they need to shift from one to another harmoniously, esthetically, sensuously, sensuallyā¦ not choppily or speedilyā¼ļø
āWhat a horrible discovery for a kid.ā
Iāve witnessed ignorant follies, miseries, and tragediesā¦ more than all of you could ever imagineā¦ š Thatās why my expectations of life were/are always lowā¦ thus I was/am more easily to be contentā¦ š
āIām surprised your chicken wasnāt stolen. Instead of being killed.ā
You misunderstood me. The villagers were poor but good-hearted/down-to-earth people. Nothing was ever stolen or mischievously hurt/killed. Everyoneās aim was to survive literally. My beautiful hen was killed in the city after we went back, for no reasons as I could see. I saw more meanness or cruelty in big cities of COO.
[āMan speakā? ā
The stuff they tell you to be vague so they can keep the situation going so they can get the assets.]
I still donāt understand what youāre talking about here: whatās āthe situationā and āthe assetsā? YT coaching guysā babbling talks š?
[Their brain might be wired differently? ā
Iām convinced they all take a class at some point because they say variations of the same thing. š]
You mean men in general or those relationship coachersā
āI donāt try to get inside his head. I donāt want to. I fear it. Iām afraid by what he admits out loud. šā
You think MJ represents average Westerners or all men under the Sun? Isnāt it very pessimistic to depictā
āI donāt know enough about working out to not do some research on it. I wouldnāt have much of an idea where to start.ā
You should! Otherwise, you risk to injure your body. Iāve been working with PT that is individualized according to my bodyās needs, so itās like a personalized pilate.
āThatās nice that you have some concern for her. My family is not like that. šā
We COO kids were brought up to care/act for others (especially those in need) first, at least in principle /philosophy. By comparison šļø , most of Americans areā¦ š¤
āWhat does red symbolize?ā
Red š“ symbolizes ā good luck; ā«ļø ā bad omen; white āŖļø ā death.
āNo, Iāve heard about it. Or had very small glimpses of it. Or small experiences with it. The closest thing I can relate it to is being in high school and you hear little blips and rumors about what happens at the parties the popular kids have. And itās always so much cooler and more interesting that whatās happening with you and your dork friends. š Thereās a whole other world.ā
I didnāt go to your k-12 school here, but taught two for a couple of yearsā¦. Thatās where you get your āanother layerā š³āš
Snow,
“I was just teasing you (Iāve been in a teasing mood lately š¤” ) š¤”
I was teasing, too. Whenever I put a smiley face after the sentence, I’m teasing. š But there were many different LOs with numbers and some had decimal points. I had trouble keeping them apart. š
“Oh, no one sets any artificial āside testā. ”
I don’t see it as artificial. In the example I gave, you’re attempting to deepen the connection but making sure you’re not chasing/doing too much because you’re seeing if/how the other person responds.
“When interacting with another person, all sorts of unpredictable situations or āadversitiesā would come up, serving as natural ātestsā to see/reveal their (& our) characters:
1. keep oneās words ā say what one means and follow what is said/āpromisedā.
2. sincerely care for your wellbeing in front of you or ābehindā you (via texting, calls, missives).
3. genuinely apologize after making small/big mistakes, even just misunderstanding errors, but not finding excuses or blaming others/the whole world.
4. remember stuff you care about or plan to do (you praised this a lot).”
Those are all good, too. And it takes time to see all of them. It takes time to see someone in all of these possible scenarios.
“One can do it only when you donāt expect to get any response”
I know this is the general wisdom, but no one reaches out with the thought: I’ll be ok if I don’t get a response. You always hope for some kind of response.
“I accepted my xSOās (was 21, a junior in college) marriage proposal over a cup of coffee, which tells you how much I cared about the relationship.”
So you’re saying you didn’t care about the relationship ?
“He did not want to or was unable to give what you wanted? Why or why notā”
He wanted an FWB. Now, to his credit, he was very clear about that. No b.s./gobbledygook so he could get the assets. The “assets” are sex. But could also include time, attention and companionship.
“You really believe there is some of kind of extra-ordinary romance, LE or hot-sex based, that could transcend your ordinary existence and last in this world, which could also save one from oneās discontent lotā š§”
No. I wasn’t talking about limerence or romance. Just life in general.
“Like Greta Garbo did, smartāļø”
Did you know she was planning to do a movie after her last film? Her last movie was in 1941. In 1948, she did a screen test for a new movie. You can pull it up online. She looks great. I only wish there was audio. She had such a great voice. But she couldn’t get financing for the movie and the project fell through.
“Sounds like that she contributed much more to the society than the mysterious/isolated Garbo did! š”
She did, but she’s also problematic in some of her political views. Racist comments.
“Could bad teeth be a barrier in a romance or an affair?”
Yes, but he was playing a type who was the polar opposite of the safe husband.
“Later, she had to choose which world she wanted to stayā¦. ”
I’ve heard of the show. I know it was popular.
[āWhereas in the BBC series ā¦ how Sebastian and Charles end up. They break your heart.ā]
“Totally! š¢”
It’s hard to watch Sebastian slowly devolving into alcoholism. It’s very sad. I love that character.
“We discussed this before, and I totally agree with you; w/o sex, that kind of deep romance is enviableāļø”
When Charles later reconnects with Julia once he’s become an established painter, he calls Sebastian the “forerunner.” I took that to mean Sebastian was his first big love and she’ll become his second. “Love” can be interpreted by the reader.
“Oh my dear, I would not dream it for the whole universeā¦ šØ”
I feel the same about dating a guy like you. š I don’t have enough time left on the planet for the sex sessions you’ve described you like on here before. š (NO, I am not going into graphic details. I know you don’t want to.)
“Youāre talking about instinctual, animalistic sex ā§ļø; Iām talking about the tango with Aphrodite š š + Apollo šŖššµ”
Yes, mam. I don’t want to tango with the gods. š
“You misunderstood me. The villagers were poor but good-hearted/down-to-earth people.”
You wrote people were hungry, which can make people do things that are usually out of character.
“I still donāt understand what youāre talking about here: whatās āthe situationā and āthe assetsā? ”
They want a casual situation but don’t come out and say that specifically because that would scare off the woman, so they say something vague to make her think it could get more serious while knowing or all but knowing it never will.
The classic is: Let’s take this slow and see where this goes. (or some variation of it)
“You mean men in general or those relationship coachersā”
Men in general
“You think MJ represents average Westerners or all men under the Sun?”
I certainly hope not! š
“PT that is individualized according to my bodyās needs, so itās like a personalized pilate.”
You’re doing Pilates ?
“We COO kids were brought up to care/act for others ”
I can’t speak for other people and their families, but I was describing mine. It would never dawn (or they don’t want to) pick up the phone and call a long distance relative to check on them during the holidays. They don’t have that level of concern.
“Red š“ symbolizes ā good luck; ā«ļø ā bad omen; white āŖļø ā death.”
That’s interesting. White means something so different in the West.
“I didnāt go to your k-12 school here, but taught two for a couple of yearsā¦. Thatās where you get your āanother layerā š³āš”
It was a metaphor. There’s a big difference between having a nice time and having a blast. Life gives you very few opportunities for the latter. But you know it’s out there because you’ve had glimpses/short moments of it.
Why do people stay in toxic/narrasistic relationships?
Initial thoughts – pick one or more from:
1. Fear of being alone
2. Negative attention can be perceived as better than no attention at all
3. The ‘comfort’ of the familiar
4. The narcissist makes the partner feel as though everything that goes wrong is their fault. They may think ‘if I just act the right way, it will get better’. Or they (are made to) feel hopeless that they’d be able to do any better with anyone else, or alone.
You know, I just goggled that question before I posted here, and I think I know my weakness with women (possibly LO) is “pity” or “hopeful” coupled with “rescue complex” as to why women have been, in my eyes, an issue. When really it is me that is the issue. And being alone. I know that’s why I hope I go first before Momma. I don’t want to be alone.
Adam,
So you don’t mean you think LO herself is toxic – you were wondering why she has stayed with toxic people in the past?
And with the point about going first, do you think Momma would be better be able to cope alone than you can? Because if you’re not sure she could, you could use that as motivation to strive for a longer life.
I don’t think LO was toxic in that she played at me for attention I did give her, no. I am sure that she stayed as long (she never told me how long after finding out he was cheating before they got divorced) as she did because it was the father of her children. And then the man she was seeing when she left the job ended up fooling around on her too. So heaven help the man that she’s married to now that he stays on his toes. My patience does have an end. I know I am seeing it from her (my limerence) side, but I do feel like I don’t like members of my gender very much right now from her experiences.
I am sure I have talked about it with Momma. She knows how I feel about being alone again. I think with the support of our two sons, she would fair better than I would alone. Momma and our sons “saved” me from my drinking. I don’t think I would have made it to my 30’s if it weren’t for them. That’s what I am afraid of more than anything about being alone again. Is falling back into my self destructive habits I had before I met her.
Like Ty Herndon’s song “A Man Holding On To A Woman Letting Go” …. “and the angels are coming to carry her home … his heart is telling him to hang on for dear life, because deep down he knows she’s letting go for good this time.”
To Adam:
My ex-husband was a narcissist and I stayed because of the children and because I am disabled and not able to work.
After 20 years, he divorced ME, and it was even more awful than I could have imagined. I am so glad I didn’t initiate it. He tried to claim to the judge that there was nothing wrong with my health because he didn’t want to pay alimony.
I had to spend $50,000 to defend myself. I ended up winning, but it was awful.
What about pheromones for enabling addiction? I know it’s not a behavior or anything that the LO does, but I keep wondering what it was about the LO that made him so incredibly appealing and after taking this quiz and seeing that he was in fact “neutral,” according to my results, I have to conclude that it was really just about my own predisposition to limerence. But even so, why HIM and not anyone (or everyone) else? Especially since I’ve only had the one. I feel like there must be something else going on and the idea that there was a hidden chemistry at play has always seemed to me like a plausible explanation.
That is an interesting idea. It seems like pheromones would trigger other women, too. Did you notice anything in other women around your LO?
I encountered an unusually attractive man when I was working at an engineering company years ago. He was a subcontractor. Something about that man was very appealing. His presence disrupted my logical thinking. If he was in the building, I couldnāt focus on anything else. I questioned what was wrong with me. Why did this man impact me so much? Some strange behaviors in myself included that I would spontaneously stand when he entered the room. Itās so weird. One time he needed space to set his laptop down to work on his computer. He asked to use our conference room (which made sense), but I insisted that there was room on my desk for him. When we entered my office, I literally pushed stuff off my desk sweeping it aside with my arm so that he could set up his laptop. I sat across from him. I desperately wanted to be in his presence even if was just a brief moment. When he left, he walked past the secretary. She spontaneously stood up, too. She and I stood motionless, watching him exit the building. When he was gone, she turned to me and said, āWow!ā I felt some comfort in the fact that other women were as affected by this man as I was. I donāt know why he was so attractive, but pheromones are my best guess. Whatever it was that made him so appealing, it didnāt just trigger me, it triggered other women, too.
II suppose it depends on whether pheromones are universal in their potency or specific to individuals. I had always assumed the latter but I donāt know much about how they work. In my case I did not notice other women behaving in a way that would indicate that they had been affected.
It sounds like this man was not an LO but someone you only met briefly. I had a more sustained contact with my LO ā we traveled together (along with my husband) over a period of weeks. But your description of your feelings as ādesperate to be in his presence,ā and the way you watched yourself behave in ways you could not explain – are very familiar to me. I felt drawn to be near to my LO, I wanted to touch him (not in a sexual way) and I watched myself behave – in front of my husband – seemingly without the ability to stop myself. Yet he was not unusually attractive. My husband on the other hand is extremely attractive ā the most handsome man Iāve ever met (others routinely remark on this so this is not just my opinion). Learning about limerence has given me a framework with which to understand much of what happened and why I behaved the way I did but I still find myself looking for an explanation for what it was about this one man that elicited such an extreme reaction from me. I felt like I was possessed.
MJ,
It has all got too messy above, so I’m replying down here. It’s good that you saw it through and asked her out. From the reply you got from her (yeah, I know I will sound like Marcia here), by the fact there is no clear ‘yes’, then it is by default a ‘no’. Any change to that would need to come from her end. Especially the way she said ‘one day when my kid is older’ says that its final for now.
I would suggest you don’t even check back and ask her again. That could well make it go more awkward. You can back off cleanly now, taking the hint and just revert to normal friendly ways between the two of you.
I know it is not the outcome you wanted, but take heart from the fact you handled the process well and that it isn’t affecting you like LO did.
I hope 2026 sees you get that coffee somewhere somehow.
Thanks LaR
You’re probably right but it is kind of a bummer. I’m probably stubborn because I’m desperate for that coffee and it seems so out of reach. Something so simple too. Like she’s such a nice person. I feel like we’re a good match. The crazy thing too is, I don’t care if it never comes down to that. Even if it’s only one date. I just want to do something besides what my life consists of now. I’ve bantered on enough about it in this forum, so I won’t repeat and bog the thread down with my bs again. There are probably others here with bigger fish to fry, over their concerns.
Thank you for caring LaR. I appreciate you as always. If anything changes, you and Madam Marcia will be first to know.. (I almost called her Mother again š)
MJ,
Just see if she comes to you now, and if not, move on. It doesn’t need to blow up like it did with LF – if you are not fixated, you can now just be friends with this one.
Don’t call her mother – it can’t end well!
MJ,
“Daaaaaamnnnn Girl, thats it? Thatās all I get? Youāre practically pushing me out of the plane. Off the bridge. Off a cliff. ”
I would LOVE to push you out of the plane. You won’t let me. š
“That could be your other side-gig.”
I don’t need a side gig. The rules are pretty simple.
You’re already hovering with the new one. Latina Babe. And you know it. š
Let’s go over this one more time.
1.) You ask out RIGHT AWAY. Within 1 to 3 times of chatting up. (I made that number up, but pretty much soon after you establish a rapport.) You make it clear it’s a date. “I’d like to take you out for a drink. Are you free this weekend?” Give her something specific to respond to so she knows you’re serious. Anything less than a yes is a no. And you ask ONE time. ONLY one time. If she says yes and cancels, you’re are gracious but say, “Let me know when you want to reschedule.” And that’s it. The rest is on her. You do not mention it again. And she needs to go out on that date with you within a week or two of you asking (unless there are extenuating circumstances). If it takes longer than that or if she keeps rescheduling, you move on.
2.) If she’s flim flammy when you ask, you move on. You don’t keep texting; you don’t keep approaching; you don’t keep hovering. Move that energy to another babe. You’re still friendly if you run into her, but you’re removing the energy and effort. I know it can be confusing because some women give a “soft no,” but if she wants to go on that date, you’ll get a yes.
3.) Getting her number and texting her for weeks/months while suggesting multiple things to do without going out is hovering. Seeing and chatting up repeatedly without asking out is hovering. Women often sense hovering. And I’m going to be blunt here, but it doesn’t inspire confidence. The only way to know if a woman wants more than a texting buddy or a chatting buddy is to ask her out right away.
You want to spend your time and energy on women who want to spend time with you, who are easy to communicate with and are consistent. I would tell women the same thing. I would tell myself the same thing! I would scream at myself the same thing! š These are basement-level requirements.
” See this tells me you probably are quite attractive to be able to move on like you do. ”
So if i was ugly I should put up with flim flam? š
It’s not about attractiveness. It’s about having some self-respect and not wanting to waste your energy and time. I’d rather have no one in the queue than flim flam. And the thing with flim flam … the people who live in it are more than likely not going to get any better. Do you think it’s going to be any easier to schedule a second date if you can even manage to get them on a first one?
“Although I know youāre not wrong. I just love talking to her.”
You can enjoy her company, but that situation is a dead end.
“Hijacked that from your reply to Mila. Itās genuine. I like it. Your dark sense of humor. It too would make for a great t-shirt.”
I wasn’t trying to be funny. I was serious. I can not believe the impersonal things people text me in bizarre attempt at “staying in touch.”
” It said āLetās agree to disagree and quietly resent each otherā
Perhaps that applies to a certain person you know on here.. š”
If you’re talking about Snow, we don’t resent each other. At least I think we don’t. We have a lot in common and a lot we disagree on. It’s all good. š
Yeah, MJā¦.Itās entirely possible sheās too āniceā to come out and say she doesnāt want to date you, and is using the āI canāt get a babysitterā card, desperately hoping you get the hint. If not, she can come to you. š
And, also, don’t put a woman in the position of having to say no more than once. I realize it’s much harder to ask, but it’s also not fun to have to say no. Especially face to face.
Lady Marcia š š« ,
In the spirit of New Year, we single ladies are allowed to tease or brag a little about our ādate-haremā. I have a photo file stored in one of my hard drives, with their profile picturesā¦ that French film maker, Alain Delonās Jr. Ohhlalaā¦š¤
āBut there were many different LOs with numbers and some had decimal points. I had trouble keeping them apart. šā
They were not real LOs, but just a garden variety of crushesā¦ most of which were NOT from apps. I donāt have better acronym for them, besides Lš ¾ļø is matching term for Dr. Lās blogs.
āI donāt see it as artificial. In the example I gave, youāre attempting to deepen the connection but making sure youāre not chasing/doing too much because youāre seeing if/how the other person responds.ā
I never tried such attempt, since my app dates never exceeded more than 2 times (aside from LO5), without the required glimmer L6. Your kind of āattemptā came up naturally later and clearly indicated that the other side was casual or just lying.
āI know this is the general wisdom, but no one reaches out with the thought: Iāll be ok if I donāt get a response. You always hope for some kind of response.ā
I DIDā¼ļø Not just one time ā¦ It truly helped train my Stoic strength. Stoical muscles can only be built gradually dealing with realistic situations, which might/could break a weaker heart/mindā¦ If a result turned out to be the opposite of the worst I fully prepared for, then I could be over the Venus ā£ļø(not just the Moon). The LE high canāt compete with thatš„ luckā¦ š
āSo youāre saying you didnāt care about the relationship ?ā
I was saying that I was so into that mutual LE that Iād accept LO#4ās proposal with anything, even just a cup of coffee, without an engagement ring/token of any kind. He never made it up or took me for a honeymoon! š We were not that poor, and his grandmotherās rarely driven car was given to us as a wedding gift. š
āHe wanted an FWB. Now, to his credit, he was very clear about that. No b.s./gobbledygook so he could get the assets. The āassetsā are sex. But could also include time, attention and companionship.ā
Gosh so many cultural terms that I didnāt know. So he was not as limerent for you as you him, ah, that sucks. In hindsight, If you knew what LE is back then, would you walk away from himā
[āYou really believe there is some of kind of extra-ordinary romance, LE or hot-sex based, that could transcend our ordinary existence and last in this world, which could also save one from oneās discontent lotā š§ā]
āNo. I wasnāt talking about limerence or romance. Just life in general.ā
I see that a possibility lies ONLY in creating/producing āArt of our lifeā with our own diligent physical and mental Hands. No āsaviorā of any kind can come from external. Of course, a lasting, fruitful romance š would be the most rewarding, but it wonāt drop from the š; two partners need to WORK on itā¦.
āDid you know she was planning to do a movie after her last film? Her last movie was in 1941. In 1948, she did a screen test for a new movie. You can pull it up online. She looks great. I only wish there was audio. She had such a great voice. But she couldnāt get financing for the movie and the project fell through.ā
No, I didnāt. As I said, I rarely follow any celebrityās life stories. Isnāt it her own voice in the movie āChristinaā? I liked her accent very much.
āShe did, but sheās also problematic in some of her political views. Racist comments.ā
I saw her movies, but didnāt know anything about her life, until you just told me over the last two posts. I saw the news of her death last week.
āIāve heard of the show. I know it was popular.ā
Think it in a metaphorical way: Claire was in her middle age crisis with a childless, ādeadā marriage. Then a āGlimmerā took place ā she was mysteriously teleported to another era and met her L10 LO, Jamie, who madly and devotedly fell in love with her. Helplessly (could not voluntarily coming back to 1950s), she adventured into her LE with Jamie, and they got married officially in a church. The barrier of their mutual LE was that occasionally, sheād be involuntarily teleported back to the modern world, which was beyond Jamieās power ā he could not follow her.
I saw the series before it was put on NetFlex, and was so impressed by such a mutually devoted, loved couple. I didnāt understand how it worked, they were like made for each other from two erasāļø
Here is the 3-minute wedding screen clip: https://vimeo.com/281100595.
I only remembered this scene a decade later, because she surveyed and touched his body first before she took off her gown. Then she guided him just a little bit before he quickly took it overā¦ it felt beautiful, elegant and sacred, for the wedding nightā¦.
āItās hard to watch Sebastian slowly devolving into alcoholism. Itās very sad. I love that character.ā
I like Charles better; Sebastian is quite spoiled to me, and itās unbelievable to see him sinking in that āholeā in Germany with his dominant lover. Back then, I didnāt understand why he could not just yank himself out of drinking, with Charlesā love and support. I never knew or even heard of any alcoholic back in COO, no any kind of addiction. When xSO was going through it, I thought they just gave me the genetic element as an excuse not to fight with it hard enough.
āWhen Charles later reconnects with Julia once heās become an established painter, he calls Sebastian the āforerunner.ā I took that to mean Sebastian was his first big love and sheāll become his second. āLoveā can be interpreted by the reader.ā
Itās clear to me that they love each other in mind, heart, and spirit, probably without sex; which is totally fine and convincing.
āI feel the same about dating a guy like you. šā
I was thinking of LTR, you just circled back to only sex again! š
āI donāt have enough time left on the planet for the sex sessions youāve described you like on here before. š ā
Dating a guy like me? Just bring 1/2~1 dozen Marcia over at the same time, so you can take turns to rest and leave.ā¦ š¤«
āYes, mam. I donāt want to tango with the gods. šā
Can you be a bit more spiritualāļø Actually itās a Tango with Aphrodite š š + Apollo šŖššµ + Athena š§ + Dionysus š· š¹ šø + Hermes š¤” ā five spirits in ONE š¦ BPā¦. I never expect anything more than what I could offerā¦ š¤²
āYou wrote people were hungry, which can make people do things that are usually out of character.ā
Well, they were equally hungry in a communist community, no one was a bit richer. And they were not jealous of us city intellectuals. Whenever one family killed a goose or pig during the Lunar new year, theyād sell/trade with other families. Most of them were very kind or warm hearted.
Thatās why my host family chopped that gooseās head to welcome me when I arrived there the first day. But I passed out, still not sure whether I ever tasted that goose (probably did). That girl and her pretty young mother and her baby brother I met the next morning had a black pig and some ducks in their front yard.
Later, I āwitnessedā with my eyes covered, outside a circle of grownup men, a tied pig was slaughtered (was stabbed a hole on its chest and another one on his low abdomen) with its sky-piecing cries for minutes, until its blood was totally drained out into a basinā¦ I rarely touch poke nowadaysā¦
I also enjoyed many times watching how a hut-mill producing fresh Tofu from raw soybeans grinding, liquidation, filtering, and finally solidification. That organic Tofu was/is absolutely the best under the entire heaven! Some farmers went to faraway short mountains to hunt deers, wolves, rabbits and then trade the meat with other villagers. Boys also tried to catch fish or swim totally naked in a tiny, muddy river, or catch field-mouse/mice to roast over raw fire.
Grownup also went mountains to collect woods/branches for us city folks to cook over mud-brick stoves, weād then āpayā them with good meals/dinners. Once, our host familyās two short sons spent a day and collected a horse-cart full of small woods for us; then they ate: respectively 103 and 109 dumplings I helped make, 6 steamed bread, then 20 scrambled eggs as supplement! I never forget that meal! š³ My exile life was not uncoloredā¦ ā¼ļø
āThey want a casual situation but donāt come out and say that specifically because that would scare off the woman, so they say something vague to make her think it could get more serious while knowing or all but knowing it never will. The classic is: Letās take this slow and see where this goes. (or some variation of it)ā
Good gracious š! Luckily I never got myself into that situation, I could intuitively sense menās emotional temperatureā¦ No app man ever glimmered for me.
āMen in generalā.
Is it typical in American or in the. whole West? No wonder youāve been so demoralized or pessimistic.
āYouāre doing Pilates ?ā
Physical therapy is considered as a form of Pilates, since you gradually work on a group of āinjuredā muscles or ligaments, and improve strength of muscles around the area, with a licensed PTist who can teaches/checks on your postures or adjusted/added new movement. It cost $600 per session in my town, my insurance pays 20 sessions per year for one area. You need a prescription from your pcp or an orthopedic.
āI canāt speak for other people and their families, but I was describing mine. It would never dawn (or they donāt want to) pick up the phone and call a long distance relative to check on them during the holidays. They donāt have that level of concern.ā
Thatās strange and sad. Maybe their older generation treated them that way? My in-lawās families are NOT like that at all, although everyone was divorced 1 or 2 times.
āThatās interesting. White means something so different in the West.ā
I know! For funeral meals, tofu dishes are symbolically always served, but never on wedding banquets – soy-sauced dishes are served for good lucks. An erroneous waiter may get beaten up if he serves wrong-colored food, and the restaurant has to pay the guests for the ādamageā of a bad luck/symbol.
I donāt like bright š“ at all, so went burgundy for my silk wedding dress. Lotus color is considered sensuous/sensual over there; emerald green as sexy/ stealthy sexual (related to snake color). Other light or bright color tones donāt suit Asiansā skin well. However, COO is adopting white for modern weddings, but still dislike black ā«ļø.
āIt was a metaphor. Thereās a big difference between having a nice time and having a blast. Life gives you very few oppordtunities for the latter. But you know itās out there because youāve had glimpses/short moments of it.ā
In the East, even without politics involved, people consider itās fatalistic, a fate/karma, whether one obtains āa blastā time. Itās always advised NOT to EXPECT or ANTICIPATE positive/wished results, while still making best efforts to bring oneself some ānice timesā. Without knowing much about psychology, most people know and accept that āEnough is as good as a feastā ā Contentment brings happiness.
With a scented hot bath every night, Iām having more sounding sleep and waking up with a stronger sense of āpeaceā/groundedā¦.
Lady Snow,
“with their profile picturesā¦ that French film maker, Alain Delonās Jr. Ohhlalaā¦š¤”
Your ex-boyfriend looked like Alain Delon? Lucky you. š
” I donāt have better acronym for them, besides Lš ¾ļø is matching term for Dr. Lās blogs.”
Crushes?
“I never tried such attempt, since my app dates never exceeded more than 2 times (aside from LO5), without the required glimmer L6. Your kind of āattemptā came up naturally later and clearly indicated that the other side was casual or just lying.”
I don’t mean just app dates. You keep going back to app dates. š It can happen with friendship, too. I made a new friend somewhat recently at an activity and we texted on and off but months had gone by since I last saw her and I finally invited her to meet up. I don’t know her that well but it was an attempt to deepen the connection. I wasn’t really testing her, but I did kind of wonder what the point of just texting was if we had no plans to ever meet up.
“I DIDā¼ļø Not just one time ā¦ It truly helped train my Stoic strength. ”
I am not that evolved. š If I reach out, I hope to get a response. Now, there are some people (family mostly) who I am ok (thought still slightly annoyed) if there is no response. Especially if they were the ones to initiate the conversation. But this is their pattern. So it’s not like I don’t know what to expect. But if it’s guy I like, yes, I want to hear back.
“He never made it up or took me for a honeymoon! š ”
Was he just not a romantic person?
“So he was not as limerent for you as you him”
He wasn’t limerent at all.
“In hindsight, If you knew what LE is back then, would you walk away from himā”
I can’t answer that question without you getting annoyed. š
“I see that a possibility lies ONLY in creating/producing āArt of our lifeā with our own diligent physical and mental Hands. ”
I don’t know what this means. I just didn’t see myself following the traditional path.
“Isnāt it her own voice in the movie āChristinaā? I liked her accent very much.”
Yes. She started off in silent movies. It was a big deal when she spoke her first lines in a movie. “Garbo talks!” the headlines read. š Some silent stars saw their careers tank because they became awkward/stilted in terms of their acting with sound or their voices didn’t match their personas (i.e. her former lover and co-star, John Gilbert, who was in Christina; he was a huge star when they starred in their first silent movie together, she was almost an unknown). But her voice was good. Deep, world-weary, self-deprecating.
“Here is the 3-minute wedding screen clip: https://vimeo.com/281100595.”
I’d have to watch the series. It’s kind of hard to tell who the characters are in terms of story/personality from this clip.
“and itās unbelievable to see him sinking in that āholeā in Germany with his dominant lover.”
I don’t think it’s in Germany. Maybe Morocco ?
” Back then, I didnāt understand why he could not just yank himself out of drinking, with Charlesā love and support. ”
His behavior made sense to me. You could see him starting to fall into addiction way back when they were in school.
“Itās clear to me that they love each other in mind, heart, and spirit, probably without sex; which is totally fine and convincing.”
That’s how I interpret their relationship but some people interpret it as sexual. A true “romantic friendship,” at least in my mind, wouldn’t get sexual.
[āI feel the same about dating a guy like you. šā]
“I was thinking of LTR, you just circled back to only sex again! š”
Because we were talking about sexual incompatibility.
“Dating a guy like me? Just bring 1/2~1 dozen Marcia over at the same time, so you can take turns to rest and leave.ā¦ š¤«”
I’d feel like every session was a production. Too long, too labored. š
“Can you be a bit more spiritualāļø”
I think of sex as primal.
“Thatās why my host family chopped that gooseās head to welcome me when I arrived there the first day. But I passed out, still not sure whether I ever tasted that goose (probably did). ”
You saw the headless goose, right? That would be traumatic.
“Later, I āwitnessedā with my eyes covered, outside a circle of grownup men, a tied pig … with its sky-piecing cries for minutes”
That would be awful. I’m surprised you’re not a vegan.
” My exile life was not uncoloredā¦ ā¼ļø”
How long were you exiled?
“Is it typical in American or in the whole West?”
I’d say the U.S. I can’t answer for other countries.
“Physical therapy is considered as a form of Pilates, since you gradually work on a group of āinjuredā muscles or ligaments”
I think of Pilates as exercise that is core-focused, but I know it started out as PT for soliders.
“Thatās strange and sad. Maybe their older generation treated them that way? ”
They’re just chilly people.
“An erroneous waiter may get beaten up if he serves wrong-colored food, and the restaurant has to pay the guests for the ādamageā of a bad luck/symbol.”
Duly noted. No tofu for weddings. š
“I donāt like bright š“ at all, so went burgundy for my silk wedding dress. Lotus color is considered sensuous/sensual over there; emerald green as sexy/ stealthy sexual (related to snake color). ”
It’s different here. Red is considered a sexy color.
Lady Marcia,
Just came out of my daily bath, feeling heavenly š. I strongly recommend that you take 20-30 mins hot bath the last thing before bed, your sleeping quality would improve; insomnia could be helpedā¦
āYour ex-boyfriend looked like Alain Delon? Lucky you. šā
Oh, no. Heās one of app men, the biggest liar with most literary, flattering written words ā his wedding ring stuck on his finger when I met him the first time ā he looked 15-20 years older than his picture. From then on, Iād be distrustful whenever I heard any types of compliment, rather to get fiery arguments or āHobbitās stones š š š āā¦ š
āCrushes?ā
Thatās too many of letters to type considering how many crushes on the record: C1, C2, C4.1ā¦C5.4ā¦. C16. š
āI donāt mean just app dates. You keep going back to app dates. š It can happen with friendship, too. ā
Oh, I followed a hiking group for 3 years, 1 classical novel meetup for 1 year, a Socrates society, 1yr, CPTSD, poetry reading/writing, etc. No glimmer, even for friendship, came out of them. Also, everyone was busy working full-time back then.
āI am not that evolved. š If I reach out, I hope to get a response. ā
When I reach out, I simply care about other sides without worrying about any responses. Some are polite but personalized greeting cards, some 1-2 hours of online chats, catching up once a year.
āBut if itās guy I like, yes, I want to hear back.ā
Of course, who does not want to hear backāļø But there are always two answers, Yes or No! How should/could oneās mind prepare for a possible rejection and then feel less/little hurt? ā Just assume a negative answer will take place, but still reaches out. If no response, you GET less disappointed and easily move on.
After 6 years of practicing Stoical disciplines (a side product of my last LE), Iāve evolved to 95% Stoic, I donāt want to be šÆ, keeping 5% to indulge in a YES on Venusā¦
āWas he just not a romantic person?ā
I mentioned heās non-Limerent, self-diagnosed Aspie, not a book reader but a TV-channel hopper.
āI canāt answer that question without you getting annoyed. šā
I hope after being LwL for 4 years, youād have clearer answers that would bring yourself much less heartaches, if not enough joys. Iām nobody, donāt worry about my reactions.
āI see that a possibility lies ONLY in creating/producing āArt of our lifeā with our own diligent physical and mental Hands. ā
āI donāt know what this means. I just didnāt see myself following the traditional path.ā
What āthe traditional pathā do you mean specifically? I meant youāre the ONLY Master of your own life, so ACTIVELY Create/Make it an evolving āartā ā beautiful, purposeful, joyful and fulfilling, on your unique path, by yourself or with a LO/BP.
āHere is the 3-minute wedding screen clip: https://vimeo.com/281100595.ā
āIād have to watch the series. Itās kind of hard to tell who the characters are in terms of story/personality from this clip.ā
In the clip, the bride, Claire, is married woman from 1950s, the virgin groom, Jamie, is from 1743 Scotland. They deeply fell in mutual love. she chose to stay with Jamie, leading rebels fighting against English troops back thenā¦ I think they both are very beautiful with matching ānobleā personality. Youād never have that amount of free time to watch the whole series (8 seasons)ā¦ In my last post, my memory messed up the story, which took place in Scotland, not Ireland. I love its opening folk music, so spiritual and beautiful.
āI donāt think itās in Germany. Maybe Morocco ?ā
Youāre right, itās in Morocco.
āHis behavior made sense to me. You could see him starting to fall into addiction way back when they were in school.ā
Heās very spoiled to my taste/value. Charles at least pursues his painting.
āThatās how I interpret their relationship but some people interpret it as sexual. A true āromantic friendship,ā at least in my mind, wouldnāt get sexual.ā
Why would you care about āsome peopleās interpretationā? If the word āfriendshipā is used, then āsexualā would be absent. However to me, a relationship = romance + friendshipāļø
[I was thinking of LTR, you just circled back to only sex again! š]
āBecause we were talking about sexual incompatibility.ā
In every post I spoke with you, a LTR (or the past dating experiences), is primarily in my mind, which does include sexual compatibility. But your posts seemed to focus only on dating/short-term, hot sex /sexual compatibility, you did/do not even want to deal with Him (whoever) in the living room. Every š» here can tell weāre on two different paths, which share some common human natures, but destinations likely (not definitely) end in two placesā¼ļø š
āIād feel like every session was a production. Too long, too labored. šā
You say so is because you donāt know the energy work/principle in this arena. A good session recharges/invigorates both sides, not tiring one more; a great session makes you forgetting the meaning of āAnxietyā in any language and youād have to find out where in the Galaxy š your š§ landsā¦
[Can you be a bit more spiritualāļø]
āI think of sex as primal.ā
I canāt totally agree you here; human sex involves more than just primal, pair-bondingā¦ Spiritual, cultural, and primal is a package of LTR.
āYou saw the headless goose, right? That would be traumatic.ā
Yes, I told the story of that headless, blood pumping goose running in circles on the first day I arrived at our hostās hut.
āThat would be awful. Iām surprised youāre not a vegan.ā
This took place for the goose trauma, so I covered my eyes but still curious to know how a pig was slaughtered. A half of a villagers were present watchingā¦ I still clearly hear the pigās and gooseās howling in my mindā¦
āHow long were you exiled?ā
2.5 years for my parents, 2 yrs for me. Dad picked me up from Granny home 3000 miles away and took me directly to the village. I didnāt get to see how they left our tiny apartment in the university campus.
āIād say the U.S. I canāt answer for other countries.ā
I hope itās just in the USā¦ I havenāt been to South America, Africa, and Oceania to 5-sense their cultures.
āI think of Pilates as exercise that is core-focused, but I know it started out as PT for soliders.ā
Pilates primarily involves core, hip, thigh work. But PT deals with every part of the bodyā¦ My Mom is also working with PT based on the specifically designed movements for her needs.
āDuly noted. No tofu for weddings. šā
Tofu is not for any celebratory meals, like New Years.
āItās different here. Red is considered a sexy color.ā
For us, itās dark burgundy š· , lotus šŖ· (pink + purple), and emerald green š .
Typo: āThis took place sometimes after the goose traumaāā¦
I also learned in the exile:
1. How to use a variety of manual farm tools to plant, weed, and harvest crops, which are only exhibited in your museums.
2. Wash every piece of laundry at the river by pounding/beating it with a ābaseball batā- like wooden stick either on a flat rock or a piece of wooden board.
3. How wild garlics look like, and what kind of grass leaves and mushrooms can be dug out and cooked as āvegetablesā.
4. The inner, soft husks of corns were used as feminine āpadsā by older girls.
5. How to make a piece of furniture from scratch using wild woods/lumbers collected from mountain. We brought several pieces we hand made back to the city and used them for years.
6. Math and the language arts from 2-3 grade at the local elementary school made of mud bricks and thatched roofs.
7. When some of my school mates (5-10 yrs old) missed school a few days in a roll, that meant a pack of wolves were roaming around the dirt roads from which they had to walk 1-2 miles to get to the school from several neighbor villages.
8. The schooling meant you study indoor in the mornings, and work in a community farm/field every afternoon. Collecting animalā dung for organic fertilizer was one piece of daily homework all year around. You wandered around the village following horse-carts (stare at their butts and āprayāā¦), use a sledge, willow basket, a shovel to collect fresh/old dumps, and hand them to a community ādumpsterā; someone would record the amount of your āhomeworkā for your class.
9. The only transportation was the simple horse-carts made of a few flat wooden boards. It could take up to a date and a night to occasionally visit our city- friends in another village.
10. No huts of any family in the villages had lock; our host family even didnāt have a front door, but two inner doors to separate the shared kitchen and our room from theirs, occupied by a widow and her 6 grown sons.
A few pieces of poems in English, romanticizing this exile period won prizes and one was published nationwide. I need to work on longer pieces in narrative form.
Lady Marcia š š« : if you ever try to tango with my future BP and thus get into a Catfight with me, your 4-inch heels š would certainly fall off the planet earth š, with my Siberian storm trained/refined šš» ā Iām pulling your legs š¤
Snow,
“Lady Marcia š š« : if you ever try to tango with my future BP and thus get into a Catfight with me, your 4-inch heels š ”
4-inch heels? Lol. You have an image of me as some kind of femme fatale. š
I’m not going to tango with your BP. You have too many physical skills/strengths/knowledge I don’t. And I’m not really a fighter. š
But in all seriousness, we’ve talked about this … if I’m with someone who wants to be spend time with another woman, there’s the door. I’m not fighting over him. He he has to want to stay of his own volition/choice. And if he wants to stay, it’s his job to get rid of the other party. This is a mess he created. He has to clean it up.
Wow, this is fascinating. So if the apocalypse comes, youāll be one of the people who know how to survive. š
Serial š š¦,
Yes, Iāll be one of the people, this is not boasting/braggingāļø
š«
Lady Marcia š š«,
The show š must go onā¦.
āYou have an image of me as some kind of femme fatale. šā
Yes, I certainly do, no kidding at allā¼ļø You could get a 34 yrs old to your bed, itās nothing short of a comet āļø attraction š¤©
āIām not going to tango with your BP. You have too many physical skills/strengths/knowledge I donāt. And Iām not really a fighter. šā
Can I hold your words for a keep/promiseāIf Yes, I may invite you to be one of my bridesmaids should I remarry again š¤ š¤£
āBut in all seriousness, weāve talked about this ā¦ if Iām with someone who wants to be spend time with another woman, thereās the door. ā
In all seriousness, my cave (watching āOutlanderā wedding scene) has no door but a tigerās skin over a cozy bed ā¦. Not sure if my future BP has strength to walk out the entrance after I š am ādoneā with him Dawn after Dawn š
āIām not fighting over him. He has to want to stay of his own volition/choice. And if he wants to stay, itās his job to get rid of the other party. This is a mess he created. He has to clean it up.ā
Spending every Moonshine with me, his š may not able to recognize any otherās gender, and his š§ may take a long vacation somewhere in the galaxy š ā¦ The other party who dares to walk into the den faces the risk of being converted to a lesbianā¦.
All He needs to clean up is the mess under āHotpotā dining table and in the steamy, scented jacuzzi tub š š¤£ š š
Now, Iām collecting your contribution for the š š
Lady Snow,
“Yes, I certainly do, no kidding at allā¼ļø You could get a 34 yrs old to your bed, itās nothing short of a comet āļø attraction š¤©”
What young guy is going to turn down strings-fee sex?
“Can I hold your words for a keep/promiseāIf Yes, I may invite you to be one of my bridesmaids should I remarry again š¤ š¤£”
I’m not worried about it. We don’t have a lot of overlap in terms of dudes we like. š
“Not sure if my future BP has strength to walk out the entrance after I š am ādoneā with him Dawn after Dawn š”
It’s not strength! Does he have the time?! As long as the sexual encounters are that you like. š Will this man be able to hold down a job and work? š
“Spending every Moonshine with me, his š may not able to recognize any otherās gender, and his š§ may take a long vacation somewhere in the galaxy š ā¦ The other party who dares to walk into the den faces the risk of being converted to a lesbianā¦.”
Huh?
Lady Marcia,
āBut in all seriousness, weāve talked about this ā¦ if Iām with someone who wants to be spend time with another woman, thereās the door. Iām not fighting over him.
If BP has truly determined to spend time with another woman, nothing much we can do. With or without a written contract, we donāt OWN anyone else or could force anotherās heart/affection to focus on us, like my French gfās husband 1.5 years ago.
Yet often the situation is not so black and white; it might not be your BPās strong intention to stray off; itās the other party (a dodge LO/Limmie) who just selfishly tries to seduce/attempt to take him away. BP could be vulnerable/weak to be attempted, due to whatever causes of the time.
In this scenario, I think we NEED to āfightā for him; support him to fight off the wicked distraction. As a loving union, we cannot just leave him alone to clean up the mess, but give him a loving and strong hand to clean the mess together. Otherwise, whatās the degree of our LOVE for himāļø
āHe has to want to stay of his own volition/choice. And if he wants to stay, itās his job to get rid of the other party. This is a mess he created. He has to clean it up. ā
What if he wants to but is a bit too vulnerable to resist for the time being (LE suddenly take him over)? Leaving his ālostā hand for a LO/Limmie to grabāThat would show your weak or insufficient CARE/LOVE for him. If in his shoe, Iād be very disappointed at you as a passive SOā¼ļø š¢ Youād be Indirectly pushing him further to the other party. Unwise, unwise, your ladyshipāļø
As you often says that each woman is to her own in the woods! Personally, this Amazon Warrior from the East WILL give an unforgettable āfightā before letting him go to the other wicked seductress š” āļø . If I still lose, Iāll take the defeat with NO regret at least at myselfāļø
Snow,
I wouldn’t want to be with someone that weak and easily distracted. It is not my job to fend off other women for him. Because rest assured, if other women show up, it’s because he’s encouraged them to at least some extent. And that’s not something I can fix, nor do I want to.
I’m not going to be drawn into something that tawdry and ridiculous. And I would deeply resent it.
I know we’re going to disagree. I don’t want to go back and forth with you on it.
Miss Marcia š« ,
āWhat young guy is going to turn down strings-fee sex?ā
Unless desperate, young guys usually do not go to mature or older women, except when she/you look like Helen of Troy!
āIām not worried about it. We donāt have a lot of overlap in terms of dudes we like. šā
Iām not so worried about it, either. I donāt think my chosen, āfloweryā BP would be attracted by your type. But never say āneverā in anything.
āItās not strength! Does he have the time?! As long as the sexual encounters are that you like. š Will this man be able to hold down a job and work? šā
Spot on, spot on, your ladyshipāļø š I think a part-time job would be the most he could manage š¤ or just retire earlier, walking my puppies (two at least) and clean up the šÆ den š”. Iām am an affordable million dollar babe ā¼ļø
āHuh?ā
Forget it, if you couldnāt get my š fabulous boastingā¦ š¤£
My tummy hurts nowā¦ š š š
Again, happy New Year š
Miss Snow ,
“Unless desperate, young guys usually do not go to mature or older women”
If they can’t get the young ones, don’t they then move to the older ones?
But since you are flattering me (and I will not dissuade you from it … :)) … LO-lite was younger, too. Not 34 but not that much older. š
“Iām not so worried about it, either. I donāt think my chosen, āfloweryā BP would be attracted by your type. But never say āneverā in anything.”
I wonder what my “type” is. š I don’t think your “flowery” type is my type! š But you never know. (I’m teasing. I’m not going to pursue your future BP.) Now a younger Jeremy Irons or a younger Mikhail Baryshnikov … we might have an problem. š
“Spot on, spot on, your ladyshipāļø š I think a part-time job would be the most he could manage š¤ or just retire earlier, walking my puppies (two at least) and clean up the šÆ den š”. ”
So you want a man who works part-time and is a house husband and … um … capable of time-intensive” relations” ? š Nothing wrong with that.
“Again, happy New Year š”
Happy New Year š
Miss Marcia,
āI wouldnāt want to be with someone that weak and easily distracted.ā
You donāt know beforehand. Everyone, including ourselves, has some vulnerable spots and in theory can make mistakes at any given time. No one can guarantee anotherās immunity, unless itās Jamie in āOutlanderā.
It sounds like youād leave NO room for human errors, are you yourself so immune to resist the temptation in your LE-lite or by āforbidden fruitsāāļø
āBecause rest assured, if other women show up, itās because heās encouraged them to at least some extent. And thatās not something I can fix, nor do I want to.ā
You are right in most cases, but not šÆ accurate. There are really shameless, dodge LO or Narc who just want to mess with othersā happy/content union due to their insecurity or ego; they could find BPās weak spots to push in. No one is perfect, including us.
Dad forgave Momās LEs several times, and she was later devoted to him. I know he left without regrets and was mostly jolly happy in his last 20 years.
āIām not going to be drawn into something that tawdry and ridiculous. And I would deeply resent it.ā
Well, it will depend on this BPās dominant quality/character whether itās worth of my time and energy to give a civil, suitable fightā¦
Snow,
Making a mistake, realizing it, ending it and putting up clear boundaries with the 3rd party is one thing.
Expecting me to clean up the mess is another. It’s his responsibility to end things with the 3rd party. It’s his responsibility to stay away from that person in the future.
But do I believe, like in the case of your mother, that a mistake can be made and not repeated? Yes.
Miss Marcia,
Iām going to pin down on vocabulary now ā
Your view sounds like a separate āyouā and āmeā, instead of āusā, in your love union with BP. When there is a relationship issue within a union, I think āusā fighting together is the best choice; it will make the tie stronger or to break afterwards, but not lukewarm/fake, dangling in between,
āMaking a mistake, realizing it, ending it and putting up clear boundaries with the 3rd party is one thing.ā
If he can do it independently before even being discovered by SO, thatās fine; like many partnered limerents here are trying to do.
āExpecting me to clean up the mess is another. ā
No one is āexpectingā you, itās up you to act or not.
āItās his responsibility to end things with the 3rd party. Itās his responsibility to stay away from that person in the future.ā
Iām on the side of DrLās and Lovisaās approach to disclose to their SO, which shows their trust in and deep affection for their SO. Two hands are stronger than one to fight LE either as incident or addiction.
āBut do I believe, like in the case of your mother, that a mistake can be made and not repeated?ā
Iām not sure when she stopped ever since I ear-dropped Dad and Grannyās conversation. I saw her Narc behavior, when she flirted with my two bfs, even in 2006. I have zero respect for her, but pity, pity, and pity!
Snow,
“Iām on the side of DrLās and Lovisaās approach to disclose to their SO, which shows their trust in and deep affection for their SO. Two hands are stronger than one to fight LE either as incident or addiction.”
Yes, I agree. I’m all for disclosure. But neither one cheated on their partners or had a clandestine texting/situationship/EA/PA. To my knowledge, if I remember their stories correctly, everything was out in the open.
So if there had been some clandestine stuff going on, it would be my SO’s job to shut that down after he disclosed to me (hopefully he’s done it before disclosure, but this is the example I’m using). I am NOT going to, for example, go through his phone to make sure he isn’t still texting or in contact with this other woman. I do not want to police a grown man’s behavior. If you feel the need to go through someone’s phone, you’re in a bad place in the relationship.
“I saw her Narc behavior, when she flirted with my two bfs, even in 2006.”
That’s a whole other issue. Because sometimes the “cheating,” for lack of a better word, is about ego and narcissism. I’m not sure how you can fix that if the other person has those qualities.
Miss Marcia,
āIām all for disclosure. But neither one cheated on their partners or had a clandestine texting/situationship/EA/PA. To my knowledge, if I remember their stories correctly, everything was out in the open.ā
I hope my future BP would do the same before going too far, and the same with myselfā¦
āSo if there had been some clandestine stuff going on, it would be my SOās job to shut that down after he disclosed to me (hopefully heās done it before disclosure, but this is the example Iām using). ā
Like my Dad, I can take any kind of naked truths if it comes to the reality. Aside from Dad, I havenāt met anyone mentally stronger than me. Iād prefer that BP does the job with my knowledge, and Iād be ready to help out whenever he needs.
āI am NOT going to, for example, go through his phone to make sure he isnāt still texting or in contact with this other woman. I do not want to police a grown manās behavior. If you feel the need to go through someoneās phone, youāre in a bad place in the relationship.ā
Agree! I would not and need not do those lowly, disrespectful stuff šāļø When facing or living with a person, I could ādetectā other sideās emotions sharply and accurately with my 5 senses and intuition, which sometimes even surprised myself š³
āThatās a whole other issue. Because sometimes the ācheating,ā for lack of a better word, is about ego and narcissism. Iām not sure how you can fix that if the other person has those qualities.ā
Deep seated insecurity is behind Egotistic + Narcissistic behaviors. I strongly sense this a lot in LwL with those undisclosed, partnered limerents and their LO, based on their description.
I donāt know anyone else can fix oneās own insecurity issue; Iāve kept yelling that only oneself can validate or invalidate oneself, but most of them still āpointā their fingers on their LO, FOO, or the whole world. Iām simply tired to reading those merry-go-around whining or rentingā¦
If You were not here, Iād quit LwL a while agoā¦joking š¤” and teasing š are so much funā¦
Lady Marcia,
āIf they canāt get the young ones, donāt they then move to the older ones?ā
Idk; I havenāt dated anyone, young or old, in 17 years. Whatās the trend nowadays? Are cougars in fashionā
āBut since you are flattering me (and I will not dissuade you from it ā¦ :)) ā¦ LO-lite was younger, too. Not 34 but not that much older. šā
Ohhlala, your ladyshipā¼ļø š³ My smelling salt šŖ, my smelling salt šŖ No wonder you still could not come out of that ā¤ļøāš„ā¦ But you argued with me to death about the First Lady Macron and French president, hašØāļø How did you feel about standing next to him? My solute to you š„
Sir š¦, did you hear about you Dameās Waterloo victory š„³ š āļø
āI wonder what my ātypeā is. š ā
IMP, youāre a deadly attractive, empathetic, insightful, witty and āfawningā INFP, who raves about GWWās Butler and Greg Wise in āMadame Bovary.ā Pray š my āfloweryā BP wonāt look like either of twoā¦ š
āI donāt think your āfloweryā type is my type! š But you never know. (Iām teasing. Iām not going to pursue your future BP.) ā
Hmmā¦that needs to be seen and proven in time š«¦ā¦ Iām highly suspicious of your invisible charm/charisma ā¦ š§
āNow a younger Jeremy Irons or a younger Mikhail Baryshnikov ā¦ we might have a problem. šā
Well, if my BP remotely looks like a younger version of either one, I will NOT introduce him to you, everāļøAnd, I put an invisible shield/lock over ALL my BPās outing trousers, which he wonāt know and does not need any in front of meā¦ š
āSo you want a man who works part-time and is a house husband and ā¦ um ā¦ capable of time-intensiveā relationsā ? š Nothing wrong with that.ā
Exactly, whatās wrong with thatāļø Life is so short, zooming like MF ā Millennium Falcon, having a 9-5 job my BP wonāt be able to attend me lovingly enough, vice versa. I donāt want to waste anymore my limited time on this planetāļø
After having lived 3 of your average Westernerās life, Iām tired nowadays. I want to just leisurely sail across the seas with BP and write my memoir ā heād better be at least a Native English speaker who could check my grammar/spellings āļø
But I have to find this BP first ā a journey to climb the š š
Snow,
“Agree! I would not and need not do those lowly, disrespectful stuff šāļø ”
Yes. That’s all I was saying. I’m not going to be someone’s probation officer and monitor his behavior. If you feel you have to do that with a partner, you’re already losing.
“Deep seated insecurity is behind Egotistic + Narcissistic behaviors. I strongly sense this a lot in LwL with those undisclosed, partnered limerents and their LO, based on their description.”
Well, everyone wants to keep their LOs in their lives. There are all kinds of lies and mental gymnastics limerents tell ourselves in order to do that. I’ve certainly done that.
“If You were not here, Iād quit LwL a while agoā¦joking š¤” and teasing š are so much funā¦
It is fun. I don’t know if you like Henry James or not. I watched a short (42 minute) movie of his short story called “The Jolly Corner.” You can find it on YouTube. It’s old. From 1975 and a little slow, but I don’t mind slow. (I tried to read it first, but my Lord, it was like reading Proust! So many long sentences and parenthetical phrases.) Anyway, it’s about a man who is 56 and has been living abroad for 33 years. (Apparently, it is somewhat autobiographical.) He comes back to America, to the very house he grew up in (now empty, his brothers and parents all dead), to an old girlfriend he didn’t marry decades ago, and becomes obsessed with the person he could have been had he stayed in America. It’s kind of a ghost story. Late at night, alone in the house, he runs into his shadow. A very creepy apparition. I found it very interesting. Is it the person he is? The person he could have become? At the end, what happens? Does he reject that person and repress his shadow? We had talked about interpretations, and this short story has any number of options.
“Whatās the trend nowadays? Are cougars in fashionā”
I certainly hope so. It’s about damn time for women to flip the script.
But, honestly, I couldn’t tell you if it’s in fashion.
“No wonder you still could not come out of that ā¤ļøāš„ā¦ But you argued with me to death about the First Lady Macron and French president, hašØāļø How did you feel about standing next to him?”
He wasn’t 25 years younger like Macron. But, yes, I was surprised he was into me. He’s 39. He may have turned 40 by now.
“āfawningā INFP”
What do you mean fawning?
“who raves about GWWās Butler and Greg Wise in āMadame Bovary.ā Pray š my āfloweryā BP wonāt look like either of twoā¦ š”
He won’t. That’s not your type.
[āNow a younger Jeremy Irons or a younger Mikhail Baryshnikov ā¦ we might have a problem. šā]
“Well, if my BP remotely looks like a younger version of either one, I will NOT introduce him to you, everāļø”
Yes, don’t. š
“And, I put an invisible shield/lock over ALL my BPās outing trousers, which he wonāt know and does not need any in front of meā¦ š”
Like a chastity belt to which you are the only one with the key? š But the belt does … um … preclude him doing everything. š
” having a 9-5 job my BP wonāt be able to attend me lovingly enough, vice versa. I donāt want to waste anymore my limited time on this planetāļø”
You’re preaching to the choir. I think most people work too much.
“and write my memoir ā heād better be at least a Native English speaker who could check my grammar/spellings āļø”
Call it … A Snow Phoenix Rising! š
Marcia,
āYes. Thatās all I was saying. Iām not going to be someoneās probation officer and monitor his behavior. If you feel you have to do that with a partner, youāre already losing.ā
Totally agree! No probation officer, no āthought policeā š®āāļø ā¦ š
āWell, everyone wants to keep their LOs in their lives. There are all kinds of lies and mental gymnastics limerents tell ourselves in order to do that. Iāve certainly done that.ā
I wasnāt serious in trying to get rid of my LE#7 when I first came to LwL, just wanted to find out what LE was and why I was suffering. But as soon the old job situation was going to change, I knew I had to find some solutions for my stuck mind, otherwise Iād suffer for the rest of my life. š
āIt is fun. I donāt know if you like Henry James or not.ā
I read a couple of his books a long time ago, and watched a couple of movie adoption. Itās hard to remember his stories, idk why.
āI watched a short (42 minute) movie of his short story called āThe Jolly Corner.ā
Iāll check it out later. I donāt like watch ghostly or creepy stuff, which tends to give me nightmares.
āI certainly hope so. Itās about damn time for women to flip the script. But, honestly, I couldnāt tell you if itās in fashion.ā
To flip the script, men of all ages need to support it and act on it. But cougars like Samantha are ruining womenās reputations. The Macrons pair was/is always going to be Unicorn in the history.
āHe wasnāt 25 years younger like Macron. But, yes, I was surprised he was into me. Heās 39. He may have turned 40 by now.ā
Based on what Iāve learned from your show, Iām not surprised. Itās too bad, heās unavailable, thus you can NEVER stand next to him in the sunlight. Compared to your last big LO, who has a greater grade, in what ways? š
āāfawningā INFPā
āWhat do you mean fawning?ā
Meaning your preference in bedroom, which is influenced /characterized by living room psychology, and the cultural and a personal historyā¦ just my guess. If you had survived a Siberian exile and was able to romanticize it, youād never become a fawn in any circumstances, even if you want to.
[Well, if my BP remotely looks like a younger version of either one, I will NOT introduce him to you, everāļø]
āYes, donāt. šā
Then it would be sad that we could only remain as š» friends online š
āLike a chastity belt to which you are the only one with the key? š But the belt does ā¦ um ā¦ preclude him doing everything. šā
Not in the traditional fashion. Iāll work with AI to see what I can come up with in a more practical way. If the future BP is greater than L8, then it will be many Samanthaā shameless hands all over him ā strictly annoying š Thatās why itās better to float/sail on the vast seas like pirates š“āā ļø.
āYouāre preaching to the choir. I think most people work too much.ā
Unless work is soulfully gratifying and serves as a part of oneās identity, such as inventive š and creative kind š¼ļø, āļø ā¦
āCall it ā¦ A Snow Phoenix Rising! šā
A great titleā¼ļø But it means my BP has to be a š ā”ļø ā¦ Where do I find a younger Jeremy Irons with š spirit āš¤
Snow,
“I wasnāt serious in trying to get rid of my LE#7 when I first came to LwL, just wanted to find out what LE was and why I was suffering. ”
Limerence tends to reflect stuck thinking and until someone is ready to “get unstuck,” frankly, there’s not much anyone else can do.
“Iāll check it out later. I donāt like watch ghostly or creepy stuff, which tends to give me nightmares.”
It’s not a traditional ghost story. It’s Jungian. It’s his shadow self. You just see the ghost once, briefly, and it’s not a clear image.
“To flip the script, men of all ages need to support it and act on it. ”
Well, yeah, without the other side participating, nothing happens. š
“Based on what Iāve learned from your show, Iām not surprised.”
My show ?
” Itās too bad, heās unavailable, thus you can NEVER stand next to him in the sunlight.”
I could never trust him even if he was. I realize that’s hypocritical in that I participated in it, but it’s the truth.
” Compared to your last big LO, who has a greater grade, in what ways? š”
Greater grade in what?
“Meaning your preference in bedroom, which is influenced /characterized by living room psychology, and the cultural and a personal historyā¦ just my guess. ”
I’m not crazy about the word “fawning.” It implies obsequiousness and sycophancy. Which I don’t want.
“Then it would be sad that we could only remain as š» friends online š”
I was teasing. I don’t remember ever being interested in a friend’s SO.
” If the future BP is greater than L8, then it will be many Samanthaā shameless hands all over him ā strictly annoying š Thatās why itās better to float/sail on the vast seas like pirates š“āā ļø.”
So you’re going to keep moving around so other women don’t make passes at your BP? š
But, yes, someone like a young/younger Baryshnikov … I’m sure was getting a lot of offers.
“Unless work is soulfully gratifying and serves as a part of oneās identity, such as inventive š and creative kind š¼ļø, āļø ā¦”
I agree.
“A great titleā¼ļø”
It’s pretty good, right? š
” But it means my BP has to be a š ā”ļø ā¦ Where do I find a younger Jeremy Irons with š spirit āš¤”
Idk. Europe ?
Miss Marcia,
āLimerence tends to reflect stuck thinking and until someone is ready to āget unstuck,ā frankly, thereās not much anyone else can do.ā
Well, even when I felt ready to āget unstuckā, my lifetime Longing got in the way ā the forced NC triggered itā¦. Then when Longing left me suddenly, LE went away with it. They were cause-effect to each other, unconsciously paired in most of my crushes/LE. š
However, Rarely, an external hand could unexpectedly help outā¦ My lifetime gratitude to such a ā
āItās not a traditional ghost story. Itās Jungian. Itās his shadow self. You just see the ghost once, briefly, and itās not a clear image.ā
Okay, itās Jungian related, Iāll give it a shot.
āMy show ?ā
I just meant your talks, chats with others here āon LwL stateā. We are all revealing/showing our limerent self hereā¦
āI could never trust him even if he was. I realize thatās hypocritical in that I participated in it, but itās the truth.ā
Iām confused again: what you trusted him and then found you were betrayed? I thought you pulled off the string (stopped the contact)? š«
[Compared to your last big LO, who has a greater grade, in what ways? š]
āGreater grade in what?ā
The degree of attractions and of personality. Didnāt you often said heās a 8 or, a 10, etcā¦
āIām not crazy about the word āfawning.ā It implies obsequiousness and sycophancy. Which I donāt want.ā
My gosh, those big words that I had no ideas about. In my mind, itās always pictures and images related to notions/concepts ā We grew up with pictographic language. Sorry, I wonāt use it again.
āI was teasing. I donāt remember ever being interested in a friendās SO.ā
Based on your talks, I donāt think you would be. But a younger version of Baryshnikov may always be highly tempting among single ladies.
āSo youāre going to keep moving around so other women donāt make passes at your BP? šā
Nay, itās just a metaphor for a carefree life like š“āā ļø across seas. But in modern world, one might need a Mental Tardis šø to escape the earth from time to time and create an infinite, stretchy space within Self. š§āāļø š§āāļø
I trust my chosen BP is strong and clear-headed enough to fend off inappropriate or unwanted female āintrudingā by tying himself to the mast whenever passing through siren- šinfested waters, or just push a magic button in Tardis š š
Miss Snow,
I moved this over here.
” My system is still the same way: delaying, very slowing in digesting/absorbing emotional foodā¦”
Ah, ok. I’m the opposite. I react at first very emotionally and then I need time to calm down and process intellectually.
“SO was sweet and apologetic but weak-minded; he couldnāt act up on his own to cut off the two bothering flings, as I told you before. ”
With him being so young … it’s not the same as comparing the situation with a middle-aged SO.
“But I couldnāt remember some traumatic events and their consequences, e.g. ”
I was talking about now. Not memories. For example, I sensed a shift in the friendship with my guy friend. And it’s become more pronounced in the last few weeks. I’m not sure exactly what it means and I’m not sure I’m invested enough to try and find out but I sensed it before it got bigger. Something was off.
” If making a firm step to just find out, the answer could be No or Yes.”
Not with him. He had a history of running around on other partners. That’s why I wrote that it wasn’t a surprise.
“I think you gave up too fast on an ominous sign. ”
There were other issues. It was never going to work. Once the limerence wore off, I could really see him and the situation much more clearly.
Miss Marcia,
ā Iām the opposite. I react at first very emotionally and then I need time to calm down and process intellectually.ā
For majority of COO people, we were trained to think fast quickly in all situations and deal with emotions later. As I mentioned before, emotion expressions are discouraged, thought to be āwhinyā since emotions babble up and down all the time; itās considered silly to treat your emotions too seriously, except in love, which has to be backed up/believed by oneās action.
After years of habitual behaving, a lot of our emotions were repressed or delayed to show up. I also talked about how I couldnāt identify my emotions while working with a therapistā¦. Nowadays, Iām much, much better to identify even my transitory feelings after my intellectual mind āsettlesā down.
āWith him being so young ā¦ itās not the same as comparing the situation with a middle-aged SO.ā
Exactly. So I didnāt āblame or chargeā
him much, just figuring out what to do with the two dynamics. When I thought I was in a moral ārightā, I had no fear to āfightā!
āI was talking about now. Not memories. For example, I sensed a shift in the friendship with my guy friend. And itās become more pronounced in the last few weeks. Iām not sure exactly what it means and Iām not sure Iām invested enough to try and find out but I sensed it before it got bigger. Something was off.ā
I know what you mean; trust your intuition in those situations! Iām super sensitive in this regard even just dealing with common colleagues or acquaintances. I really think you need to get your guy friend out of your head; he doesnāt sound grounded or mature, but insecure and vain.
āNot with him. He had a history of running around on other partners. Thatās why I wrote that it wasnāt a surprise.ā
I was referring to your college LO who became your bf and was seeing other women at the same time.
āThere were other issues. It was never going to work. Once the limerence wore off, I could really see him and the situation much more clearly.ā
Iād still try to talk with him once at least before leaving, so I could understand the situation better. but this is my current mind taking, who knows what I would have done back then, if I were in your shoe.
Miss Snow,
“Nowadays, Iām much, much better to identify even my transitory feelings after my intellectual mind āsettlesā down.”
Well, you’re right. Emotions are transitory. When I wrote I need to calm down, I mean about 24 hours. Depending on what it is.
“Iām super sensitive in this regard even just dealing with common colleagues or acquaintances.”
Me, too.
” I really think you need to get your guy friend out of your head”
He’s not really in my head all that much. I was using him as an example. If he contacts, fine. If he doesn’t, that’s fine, too. I’m not really going to do anything.
“he doesnāt sound grounded or mature, but insecure and vain.”
Oh, that’s the worst part. He THINKS he is. Presents himself as so progressive, so evolved, so above other men in terms of his emotional development/way he treats women. But, really, he’s not. He’s operating from a lot from ego.
“I was referring to your college LO who became your bf and was seeing other women at the same time.”
My college LO was never my boyfriend. I’m talking about a later LO.
“Iād still try to talk with him once at least before leaving, so I could understand the situation better. ”
We’d didn’t talk about this other woman but we talked about the relationship, and it went on for several months after we ran into her, though it was on life support. š
Marcia,
āWell, youāre right. Emotions are transitory. When I wrote I need to calm down, I mean about 24 hours. Depending on what it is.ā
We were so trained to use logic and ārepressā down emotions, that sometime it took a few days for my correlated emotions to catch up with my head.
ā Heās not really in my head all that much. I was using him as an example. If he contacts, fine. If he doesnāt, thatās fine, too. Iām not really going to do anything.ā
Thatās good. It should be this way.
āOh, thatās the worst part. He THINKS he is. Presents himself as so progressive, so evolved, so above other men in terms of his emotional development/way he treats women. But, really, heās not. Heās operating from a lot from ego.ā
Well, from my ongoing learning, a mature person (Stoic) does not compare himself/herself with others, but with his/her older (even just one day older ) Self. Also, there is no universal definition for some āabstractā or debatable concepts, such as āprogressiveā, which means different things in different degrees to different people.
āMy college LO was never my boyfriend. Iām talking about a later LO.ā
Sorry, I mixed them up.
āWeād didnāt talk about this other woman but we talked about the relationship, and it went on for several months after we ran into her, though it was on life support. šā
āOn life supportā sounds so chillyā¦. I think You did best to walk away after having carried on for several more months. The relationship sounded irreversible.
Snow,
“Also, there is no universal definition for some āabstractā or debatable concepts, such as āprogressiveā, which means different things in different degrees to different people.”
I meant progressive in his thinking in terms of the patriarchy and how men and women interact. He’s very PC.
” I think You did best to walk away after having carried on for several more months.”
I never should have done that. I probably never should have dated him at all. He was a bad choice, overall. But it was a long time ago and I’m over it. Over the college LO, too. I don’t get fixated on people from my past. I don’t have a “one who got away” from 30 years ago, for example. It’s not how my mind works. I figure if they got away, it’s because they wanted to. š
“Well, even when I felt ready to āget unstuckā, my lifetime Longing got in the way ā the forced NC triggered it”
The key here is … the limerent has to want to get unstuck. If they don’t, there’s not much anyone else can do.
“Okay, itās Jungian related, Iāll give it a shot.”
That’s how I read it. He’s haunted by another self — the self he could have been had he made different choices.
“Iām confused again: what you trusted him and then found you were betrayed? I thought you pulled off the string (stopped the contact)? š«”
You wrote that it is too bad he’s not available. I’m saying that even if he was, could I ever trust him? He’s willing to cheat on his partner. Is that someone I really want to date?
“The degree of attractions and of personality. Didnāt you often said heās a 8 or, a 10, etcā¦”
My LO was a 10 right off the bat. Right when I met him. This was long before I knew what limerence was. At that time, I was just indulging in and drinking up those feelings. LO-lite was more of an 8 or so when I met him. But it kind of dipped as he initially wasn’t really telegraphing interest. It fluctuated sometimes, because he’d get a little flirty but I never really expected it to go anywhere. Once he confirmed his interest, it became a level 10.
“Sorry, I wonāt use it again.”
I’m not angry you used the word. I just didn’t understand why you were using it. It has negative connotations.
“Based on your talks, I donāt think you would be. But a younger version of Baryshnikov may always be highly tempting among single ladies.”
He was my age when he was in Sex and the City. He’s very sexy in that. I know you don’t like the show, but he was worth watching. š
“I trust my chosen BP is strong and clear-headed enough to fend off inappropriate or unwanted female āintrudingā by tying himself to the mast whenever passing through siren- šinfested waters, or just push a magic button in Tardis š š”
Like Odysseus? š Speaking of which, there’s a recent movie in which Juliette Binoche plays Penelope.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19861162/
Lady Marcia,
āI meant progressive in his thinking in terms of the patriarchy and how men and women interact. Heās very PC.ā
Iām trying to be PC, too. But when it comes to romance domain, itās not strictly fair or equal interact between two parties, there is GLIMMER that irrationally excludes all others, except one LO at a time! Are there measurements to weigh āļø fairness or equality of oneās passion on the two sidesā
ā I donāt get fixated on people from my past. I donāt have a āone who got awayā from 30 years ago, for example. Itās not how my mind works. I figure if they got away, itās because they wanted to. šā
Iām the exactly the same way, as a part of ancient COO education: ā A good horse does not eat the grass it has already passed” ā Never look back (particularly used in relationship).
āThe key here is ā¦ the limerent has to want to get unstuck. If they donāt, thereās not much anyone else can do.ā
I totally agree with you hereāļø When you hear those arguments, subtle or bold, in unavailable LE cases, you know the limerents want, acknowledged or denied, something from LO. All the repeated arguments are just superficial covers /masks š.
āThatās how I read it. Heās haunted by another self ā the self he could have been had he made different choices.ā
I just watched the movie this afternoon, and had some quick thoughts:
1. ābecomes obsessed with the person he could have been had he stayed in America. ā
There is NO way he could know what he could have been had he stayed in America. There could be many possibilities, as the city was developing so fast.
2. āItās kind of a ghost story. Late at night, alone in the house, he runs into his shadow. A very creepy apparition. ā
Itās creepy, but since you warned me, so it was not that scary. I hate empty space in a house even in daylight. I like country, warm, cozy, somewhat ācrowdedā interior.
His shadow? His physical or Jungian shadow? Although we are born with a certain amount of Collective Unconscious (Jung), our individual Unconscious has developed/expanded along our physical growth, cultural influence, and personal experiences (traumas). So I assume what he saw was his Jungian shadow, accumulated through American birth/schools and then European culture.
3. āI found it very interesting. Is it the person he is? The person he could have become? ā
Based on Jung, oneās shadow is what one tries to repress or has repressed into his/her Unconscious, not a shadow of oneās physical form. So your questions here are in conflicts with Jungian Shadow theory. But the movie did hint that that shadow is what he could have been had he stayed. And the gf also said sheād like/accept the shadow?
4. At the end, what happens? Does he reject that person and repress his shadow? We had talked about interpretations, and this short story has any number of options.ā
I think he passed out and then woke up in his old girlfriendās arms. She thinks āit is not all he isnātā, and tries to pursue him not to dwell on what he could have been had he stayed in America, but focus on āhere and nowā. She said something like that sheās always waited for him, knowing heād return?
5. To me, such an intellectual āquestā, Americans mentality often does (based on Henry Fondaās intro) is somewhat pointless, unless heās really unhappy with his current life (lonely but wealth). I get a sense that he felt that he might be happier had not he left his old gf, or felt less culturally isolated, less of an outsider, upon seeing Americaās fast development.
Each time I returned to COO, I felt ZERO regret that I left it permanently, although I still have good friends there. I canāt tell you enough how much Iāve detested that inhuman system, regardless its astronomical economic development in the past 45 yearsā¼ļø
āYou wrote that it is too bad heās not available. Iām saying that even if he was, could I ever trust him? Heās willing to cheat on his partner. Is that someone I really want to date?ā
Yep! For a causal hookup, these partnered LO might be okay, if the woman doesnāt mind being a āLittle Threeā; but for a lasting romantic relationship, forget itā¼ļø If he can cheat on his SO, he WILL cheat on you in blink of eyesā¦ A Helen of Troy could become boring if sheās just a flowery 3rd legš¦µš½ āļøThe egotistical monologue, āLook, how great and irresistible I am, that my LO is wiling to or has cheated on his SOā is the most pathetic rubbish š¤®.
āIām not angry you used the word. I just didnāt understand why you were using it. It has negative connotations.ā
The word āfawnā had no negative connotations to me, but always appearing in my mind this shy, sweet, adorable baby š¦ in a woods/a bedroom with a Macho manā¦ quite different from a š in her den, right? š¤ ā
āHe was my age when he was in Sex and the City. Heās very sexy in that. I know you donāt like the show, but he was worth watching. šā
I owned that set once for my culture studies! I wasnāt so crazy about him, who has strong masculine quality, although heās a Ballet dancer. Between Mikhail Baryshnikov and Jeremy Irons, Iād still choose the latter who has this delicious, feminine vulnerability, which provoked my āsaviorā complex ā a part of my Animus.
āLike Odysseus? š Speaking of which, thereās a recent movie in which Juliette Binoche plays Penelope.ā
Oui, your ladyship! A modern Odysseus who would build a Tardis with moi, which could soar in the Galaxy in space, in time as we wishā¦.
Lady Snow,
“Iām trying to be PC, too.”
I consider myself pretty progressive on an intellectual level but PC behavior (that my friend exhibits) does nothing for my lower half. š
“When you hear those arguments, subtle or bold, in unavailable LE cases, you know the limerents want, acknowledged or denied, something from LO. All the repeated arguments are just superficial covers /masks š.”
Yes. All the arguments are, frankly, excuses to still see/communicate with the LO. I get it. NC is extremely difficult. Extremely. But it’s the only way to get over an LO.
“There is NO way he could know what he could have been had he stayed in America. There could be many possibilities, as the city was developing so fast.”
That’s true. He returns home and … home is not really home anymore. As he remembered it. Which is very common.
“Itās creepy, but since you warned me, so it was not that scary. I hate empty space in a house even in daylight. ”
Me, too. The house in the movie creeped me out. In the story, the ghost holds up its hand and has lost a few fingers! That would have scared me if they showed it in the movie.
“So I assume what he saw was his Jungian shadow, accumulated through American birth/schools and then European culture.”
The Shadow is whatever you repress. The ghost wasn’t real, of course, but a physical manifestation (in his mind) of all that he was repressing. That’s how I saw it.
“And the gf also said sheād like/accept the shadow?”
Right. Like those repressed parts. Or darker parts of his personality.
“I think he passed out and then woke up in his old girlfriendās arms. ”
In the literal sense, yes. But does he move forward accepting the shadow (integrating it into his personality) or continuing to repress it?
“She said something like that sheās always waited for him, knowing heād return?”
Did she ? I don’t remember that part of it.
“I get a sense that he felt that he might be happier had not he left his old gf, or felt less culturally isolated, less of an outsider, upon seeing Americaās fast development.”
It’s very common in middle age to look at the roads not taken. I know I have. And his whole family is gone. I think he implied (or said) he didn’t return for their funerals. So he’s come back to emptiness. The foundation he had, literally and figuratively, is gone (though he did little to honor it when it was there). The empty house is symbolic. Maybe all of that is becoming apparent to him.
“I canāt tell you enough how much Iāve detested that inhuman system, regardless its astronomical economic development in the past 45 yearsā¼ļø”
The movie, how I saw it, is in part about the horrors of industrialization. Or modernization. Would you say most people from your COO, if they leave, have no desire to go back? Speaking of that, in Lady Chatterley’s Lover … also a big theme … the horrors of industrialization.
“The egotistical monologue, āLook, how great and irresistible I am, that my LO is wiling to or has cheated on his SOā is the most pathetic rubbish š¤®.”
Oh, I never thought that. He hit my Achilles’ heal. I didn’t think I could still land someone I actually wanted.
“The word āfawnā had no negative connotations to me, but always appearing in my mind this shy, sweet, adorable baby š¦ in a woods/a bedroom with a Macho manā¦ quite different from a š in her den, right? š¤ ā”
You wrote “fawning.” Which means “displaying exaggerated flattery or affection; obsequious.” But, otherwise, no, I don’t mind being a fawn in a fox’s den. š
“I wasnāt so crazy about him, who has strong masculine quality, although heās a Ballet dancer.”
Yes! Masculine yet cultured. A very rare combination. š
“Between Mikhail Baryshnikov and Jeremy Irons, Iād still choose the latter who has this delicious, feminine vulnerability, which provoked my āsaviorā complex ā a part of my Animus.”
You can have Irons. I’ll let you. I’m feeling generous today. š
“Oui, your ladyship! A modern Odysseus who would build a Tardis with moi, which could soar in the Galaxy in space, in time as we wishā¦.”
Have you seen the movie?
Miss Marcia,
āI consider myself pretty progressive on an intellectual level but PC behavior (that my friend exhibits) does nothing for my lower half. šā
That sounds about right, PC eyebrows turns upwards.. š
āYes. All the arguments are, frankly, excuses to still see/communicate with the LO. I get it. NC is extremely difficult. Extremely. But itās the only way to get over an LO.ā
By experience, I am 120% certain NC is the only way, some is unable to get over an LO for years after NC, let alone if LO š„© is dangling aroundā¦
āThatās true. He returns home and ā¦ home is not really home anymore. As he remembered it. Which is very common.ā
That happens to anyone returning to a rapidly developed hometown, especially a city šļø .
āMe, too. The house in the movie creeped me out. In the story, the ghost holds up its hand and has lost a few fingers! That would have scared me if they showed it in the movie.ā
In general, I really donāt like ghost stories in images; if just reading, I can adjust my own imaginations. But I canāt help with my dreams, which run impossible šØ
āThe Shadow is whatever you repress. The ghost wasnāt real, of course, but a physical manifestation (in his mind) of all that he was repressing. Thatās how I saw it.ā
Iām with you here.
āIn the literal sense, yes. But does he move forward accepting the shadow (integrating it into his personality) or continuing to repress it?ā
The movie didnāt specify whether heād integrate it or keep repressing it. I think once one recognizes oneās shadow (one piece or several), it became impossible to consciously repress it; they grow stronger if the mind tries to resist it. Watching it peacefully with acceptance would ease the shadow or set it free eventually.
Thatās what my dreams often did without failures: I automatically /subconsciously repress something in waking hours, even just for a few seconds, then it appears in my dreams in twisted or fearful images or narratives.
[āShe said something like that sheās always waited for him, knowing heād return?ā]
āDid she ? I donāt remember that part of it.ā
Iām not sure, either. I donāt want to rewind it with the subtitle. Sheās a supporting character.
āItās very common in middle age to look at the roads not taken. I know I have. ā
I rarely did, but always felt progressive about the paths I chose or unknowingly hopped on, despite tons of mistakes made along the way. COO taught us, itās futile to look back, or just believe a possibility would be worse ā a psychological trick, so oneās mind doesnāt feel any kind of regrets ā ignorance is bliss.ā
āAnd his whole family is gone. I think he implied (or said) he didnāt return for their funerals. So heās come back to emptiness. The foundation he had, literally and figuratively, is gone (though he did little to honor it when it was there). The empty house is symbolic. Maybe all of that is becoming apparent to him.ā
Now you pointed it out, I agree with the symbol of the empty house. The past is gone, only barrenness left.
āThe movie, how I saw it, is in part about the horrors of industrialization.ā
Some of it and the greediness of wealth; the gf said he could sell the house or rent it out, but he didnāt want to (he happened to be wealthy). He wanted to hold onto some reminiscence.
āOr modernization. Would you say most people from your COO, if they leave, have no desire to go back? ā
Most of COO people would move back or move wherever money goes: when itās making money was easier over there younger people moved back. (The government/companies pay more nowadays to attract US graduates or foreigner workers over there) .
If not , they stay here. But in general, many Asians have difficulty to truly blend in or to be accepted by the mainstream, even if they were born here without accent in speaking. We simply look different thus are treated as āoutlandersā. Big cities like mine are better /more accepting.
āSpeaking of that, in Lady Chatterleyās Lover ā¦ also a big theme ā¦ the horrors of industrialization.ā
Yes, industrialization dehumanizes. Yesterday I watched Willa Catherās short play, āPaulās Caseā (a very sad ending) that also runs the same theme. The protagonist is a very handsome, highly sensitive teenager who loves paintings, theater, poemsā¦ but unable to focus on boring necessary studies in public schoolā¦
[The egotistical monologue, āLook, how great and irresistible I am, that my LO is wiling to or has cheated on his SOā is the most pathetic rubbish š¤®.]
āOh, I never thought that. ā
I got that sense in LwL, of course not in exact wording. They just want LO to validate/love them, even if they say LO is a dodgy one or a totally wrong choice for them. Their fragile ego is so inflated in LE, which only indicates deep-seated insecurity within.
āHe hit my Achillesā heal. I didnāt think I could still land someone I actually wanted.ā
Whatās exactly your Achillesā heel, if you donāt mind Iām asking? You know yourself how it was formed? (No need to tell me here)
āYou wrote āfawning.ā Which means ādisplaying exaggerated flattery or affection; obsequious.ā But, otherwise, no, I donāt mind being a fawn in a foxās den. šā
I needed an adjective in the context, without ever knowing its āobsequiousā connotation. Now think of it, there are female/male bimbos fawning in a courtship, maybe trying to manipulate the other side or just feed oneās ālower selfāā
You want to be in a foxās den š³ hmmmā¦ a delicious š¤¤ lunch/snack for š ā¦
āYes! Masculine yet cultured. A very rare combination. šā
He doesnāt exude any vulnerability, thus couldnāt feed my Animusā appetite/need. I want to see some of it on BPās face.
āYou can have Irons. Iāll let you. Iām feeling generous today. šā
Yes, Madam! But Iām not a female version of Sebastian, how am I going to attract a younger Ironsāš¤
[Oui, your ladyship! A modern Odysseus who would build a Tardis with moi, which could soar in the Galaxy š in space, in time, whenever as we wishā¦.]
āHave you seen the movie?ā
No. the preview showed a lot of bloody fighting, which I couldnāt stomach and had to cover my eyes. Binoche looks stunning, fitting so well Penelopeās role. She showed such a fighting, dignified spirit in many of her š„ š
I still remember studying/enjoying the Homerās epic in my āWorld Literatureā class and had my imagination š run wildā¦ š
Iām watching the 2nd episode of āAffairs of Heartā by Henry James on Tubi. Theyāre old and dry, but focusing on the language. Diana Riggs was still so youngā¦
Miss Snow,
“By experience, I am 120% certain NC is the only way”
Yep. Everyone wants to think they’re special snowflakes and can deviate from the NC protocol. š
“That happens to anyone returning to a rapidly developed hometown, especially a city šļø .”
I think it happens in general. It’s very common to go back to one’s childhood home or school … and it looks so much smaller.
“The movie didnāt specify whether heād integrate it or keep repressing it. I think once one recognizes oneās shadow (one piece or several), it became impossible to consciously repress it”
I would say most people repress it. Repress it and move on.
“Thatās what my dreams often did without failures: I automatically /subconsciously repress something in waking hours, even just for a few seconds, then it appears in my dreams in twisted or fearful images or narratives.”
It sounds like you have very vivid dreams. I very rarely do.
“Iām not sure, either. I donāt want to rewind it with the subtitle. Sheās a supporting character.”
It’s kind of implied she’s been waiting for him. Or that he abandoned her years go.
“I rarely did, but always felt progressive about the paths I chose or unknowingly hopped on, despite tons of mistakes made along the way. COO taught us, itās futile to look back”
It is futile, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think about it. It’s more about career choices than choices with people.
“The past is gone, only barrenness left.”
And he’s alone. The family is gone.
“Some of it and the greediness of wealth; the gf said he could sell the house or rent it out, but he didnāt want to (he happened to be wealthy). He wanted to hold onto some reminiscence.”
That’s true. The memories meant more than money.
“Big cities like mine are better /more accepting.”
I agree with you. Where you live is very cosmopolitan.
” The protagonist is a very handsome, highly sensitive teenager who loves paintings, theater, poemsā¦ but unable to focus on boring necessary studies in public schoolā¦”
I can relate. š (about being bored with “necessary” studies)
“Whatās exactly your Achillesā heel, if you donāt mind Iām asking? You know yourself how it was formed? ”
It was right there in my post. I didn’t think I could still attract someone I was attracted to. I thought that was all behind me.
“Now think of it, there are female/male bimbos fawning in a courtship, maybe trying to manipulate the other side or just feed oneās ālower selfāā”
Yes, “fawning” is icky. And of course limerents are prone to fawning. Because we’ve placed our LOs on pedestals.
“You want to be in a foxās den”
Yes š
“He doesnāt exude any vulnerability, thus couldnāt feed my Animusā appetite/need. I want to see some of it on BPās face”
I love his first scene in Sex and the City. Charlotte and Carrie meet him at an art gallery with a performance artist. Charlotte IS fawning all over him because she knows he’s a famous artist. And he’s barely responding to Charlotte because it’s so cringe. And he asks Carrie what she thinks of the performance artist. Carrie makes fun of her, and he’s amused. And he says, “You are a comic?” But he’s also being sarcastic with her; he’s putting her in her place. Because what she says is kind of obnoxious. It’s a great scene. He makes no attempt to impress her. Kind of walks off. And he’s so attractive.
“But Iām not a female version of Sebastian, how am I going to attract a younger Ironsāš¤”
You want him that young? š I thought you meant the Irons of Damage.
“Binoche looks stunning, fitting so well Penelopeās role. She showed such a fighting, dignified spirit in many of her š„ š”
I agree. I think she’d be a great Penelope.
“I still remember studying/enjoying the Homerās epic in my āWorld Literatureā class and had my imagination š run wildā¦ š”
I took a similar class in college. We read the Iliad and the Odyssey.
“Iām watching the 2nd episode of āAffairs of Heartā by Henry James on Tubi. Theyāre old and dry, but focusing on the language. Diana Riggs was still so youngā¦”
I’ll have to check that out. I like her. She was a fantastic Heda Gabbler, if you like Ibsen. You can find it on YouTube.
Miss Marcia,
Are we giving a daily, fresh Broadway show? Where is our payš° ?
āYep. Everyone wants to think theyāre special snowflakes and can deviate from the NC protocol. šā
āWants toā? Perhaps the half of them think they ARE special, can be deviated from the NC path. Snowflakes? Iāve never āmetā so many Snowflakes in my 3 earthing lives over two continents! Why didnāt I feel like a Snowflake during my LEs, despite I was always subconsciously looking for a surrogate parent, a substitute of my Narc Momā
āI think it happens in general. Itās very common to go back to oneās childhood home or school ā¦ and it looks so much smaller.ā
Theyāre not just smaller, but strange or unrecognizable. I felt like a foreigner every single time when I visited COO, which made me feeling terribly lonely and depressed. I refused go to any place where I didnāt know old friends, relatives, etc.
āI would say most people repress it. Repress it and move on.ā
Most people are not Jungās followers, and it takes tremendous courage to face oneās shadow and integrate it consciously. The stronger social norms or moralities are, the more one press down oneās shadows, leading a ābrokenā life within oneself, according to Jungian theory.
āIt sounds like you have very vivid dreams. I very rarely do.ā
Since my childhood, I have been having very detailed dreams and nightmares. Itās a GOOD thing in terms of telling (and possibly releasing) all sorts of stresses and helping understand myself. Itās said (by Jung) that when one does not believe or respect Unconscious, it wonāt talk with one through vivid images and narratives.
āItās kind of implied sheās been waiting for him. Or that he abandoned her years go.ā
Yes, he left home trying to āabandonedā a relationship with her, and she just waited.
āIt is futile, but that doesnāt mean I donāt think about it. Itās more about career choices than choices with people.ā
As a single, very lonely child, my biggest dream since 4 yrs old was to find a bosom friend, everything else was not very important ā wealthy, career, fame, popularity, power, etcā¦ I almost never looked back once time passed, but always imagined about the future, mostly the near future.
āI can relate. š (about being bored with ānecessaryā studies)ā
I was opposite. I like studying all sorts of subjects, language art /literature was the most favorite, then math, astronomy, writing.
āIt was right there in my post. I didnāt think I could still attract someone I was attracted to. I thought that was all behind me.ā
You must be looking stunning and highly attractive in LO-liteās eyes. Do you think heād want to have relationship with you, if he were not partnered? or he just wanted a flingā
āYes, āfawningā is icky. And of course limerents are prone to fawning. Because weāve placed our LOs on pedestals.ā
I got this sense in LwL, very subtle thoughā¦ opposite of my nature even during my crushes /LE. My narcissistic pride actually prevented me from bending my backbones in front of LOs.
[You want to be in a foxās den]
āYes šā
Oh, those cunning š¦ š¦ ! but they look better than Macho šŗšŗ; they need to be hunted by šÆ and š¦ ! ā š¤¤ š
āI love his first scene in Sex and the City. Charlotte and Carrie meet him at an art gallery with a performance artist. Charlotte IS fawning all over him because she knows heās a famous artist. And heās barely responding to Charlotte because itās so cringe. And he asks Carrie what she thinks of the performance artist. Carrie makes fun of her, and heās amused. And he says, āYou are a comic?ā But heās also being sarcastic with her; heās putting her in her place. Because what she says is kind of obnoxious. Itās a great scene. He makes no attempt to impress her. Kind of walks off. And heās so attractive.ā
To be honest, I completely forgot this scene! Which season and episode? He did not have āscreen Glimmerā for me.
āYou want him that young? š I thought you meant the Irons of Damage.ā
Oh, no, šØ not Irons of Damage! He looked creepy and behaved so selfish, although vulnerable. I felt very uncomfortable while watching the movie. I like Binocheās acting, though; she was irresistible, despite had no moralsāļø He did not even care about his sonās wellbeing, let alone his wifeāļøLimerence could make a decent person to lose SOUL!
But Charles of āBrideshead Revisitedā was so fresh, sensitive, romantic, totally devoted, who doesnāt love that āpureā spiritāļø I donāt mean his young age, but that SPIRIT portrayed by Irons. I still have some of such a spirit contained within a new Stoic wall, compared to some cynical, depressed tones I heard in LwL. Such a spirit could be reborn only when LE and that Longing are totally gone, imp.
āI agree. I think sheād be a great Penelope.ā
She acted great in the preview, just as I imagined.
ā Iāll have to check that out. I like her. She was a fantastic Heda a Gabbler, if you like Ibsen. You can find it on YouTube.ā
Diana Rigg is in 3rd story, āGraceā. I like the ending of the first two stories, āEmmaā and āFloraā. Also, actors speak so clearly in those old-fashioned plays, and their expressions are more pronounced than modern movies.
I watched Ibsenās plays before, but might not include āHeda Gabblerā, Iāll check that out. I dig any kind of classical works from the 18th and the early 20th century.
Why I donāt have enough time to do all I wish, even during my breakāļø š š
Miss Snow,
“Are we giving a daily, fresh Broadway show? Where is our payš° ?”
Yes! š
“Perhaps the half of them think they ARE special, can be deviated from the NC path. ”
I get it. I didn’t want to go NC, either. I had multiple attempts before it finally stuck. One of them was going LC, which I think was actually worse than NC. I thought I’d be ok running into him every now and then. I wasn’t. Part of me was still on alert in case I did run into him (I never knew exactly when I would). It was a form of intermittent reinforcement, which keeps limerence alive. (I’m talking about my LO.)
“Why didnāt I feel like a Snowflake during my LEs, despite I was always subconsciously looking for a surrogate parent, a substitute of my Narc Momā”
I don’t know. You’d have to answer that. š
Theyāre not just smaller, but strange or unrecognizable. ”
What made it unrecognizable? It had changed so much?
“Itās said (by Jung) that when one does not believe or respect Unconscious, it wonāt talk with one through vivid images and narratives.”
I believe in it, but I’m just not much of a dreamer. I never have been.
“Yes, he left home trying to āabandonedā a relationship with her, and she just waited.”
It’s sad. Hasn’t he been away 30+ years?
“I almost never looked back once time passed, but always imagined about the future, mostly the near future.”
Because you thought the future would be better ?
I actually think the key is focusing on the present (can be hard to do). Not dwelling on the past or projecting ourselves into the future.
” I like studying all sorts of subjects, language art /literature was the most favorite, then math, astronomy, writing.”
I did, too, but there were some I hated. Geometry. Why was that necessary? š
“You must be looking stunning and highly attractive in LO-liteās eyes.”
So he claimed. š
“Do you think heād want to have relationship with you, if he were not partnered? or he just wanted a flingā”
I don’t know. There’s really no way to know that unless he became available. I know it’s common for limerents to think the only thing separating them from their LOS is the barrier (one is married, for example), but it’s really hard to know for sure.
“ā¦ opposite of my nature even during my crushes /LE. ”
Well, I’m not trying to be harsh, but if you sent me multiple emails for months, I would think you were sending me an obvious signal you were interested. Particularly if they had personal stuff in them. We’ve talked about this before. I think that’s why your LO thought you wanted an affair.
“Which season and episode? He did not have āscreen Glimmerā for me.”
Google says season 6, episode 12.
” He did not even care about his sonās wellbeing, let alone his wifeāļø”
I think he did. But he wanted what he wanted. I think he’s pretty devastated by the son’s death.
“But Charles of āBrideshead Revisitedā was so fresh, sensitive, romantic, totally devoted, who doesnāt love that āpureā spiritāļø”
At the time he meets Sebastian, yes. But when he reconnects with Julia, years later, once he’s married and a successful painter, he’s pretty detached from his life. She’s very important to him but when they break up, he becomes a disconnected, middle-aged man (at the very start of the series, when he’s in the war). He looks very sad.
“Diana Rigg is in 3rd story, āGraceā. I like the ending of the first two stories, āEmmaā and āFloraā. ”
Ok.
“I watched Ibsenās plays before, but might not include āHedda Gabblerā, Iāll check that out. I dig any kind of classical works from the 18th and the early 20th century.”
Hedda is pretty evil. You might not like it. Ingrid Bergman plays her as well in another production. She’s also good, but the production felt a little rushed to me.
Thatās interesting. I wonder if youāre fond of Henry James.
I read only one book of Henry James a long time ago: āDaisy Millerā and vaguely remember some social etiquettes of the Europe (Italy?) in the story. But I remember my impression right after the reading: āah, itās so complicated! Iād be very tired living thereā¦ā
I just watched āThe Jolly Cornerā (after Marciaās recommendation) yesterday and had the above quick impression (Iām very interested in Jungās shadow work).
I like very much that tons of intellectual thoughts (psychology) of his protagonist are given (my kind of novel), which drives the reader to think about and understand the character but also explore the reader himself, if s/he was in the protagonistās shoe or had the similar experiences.
Heās definitely a big writer worth of exploration.
I just began to watch 13-episodes of āAffairs of the Heartā (free on Tubi), all based on Henry Jamesā work.
Miss Marcia,
[Are we giving a daily, fresh Broadway show? Where is our payš° ?ā]
āYes! šā
Sometimes it felt like in a group therapy hereā¦ you want to say everything yet you canāt say everything. I tried cptsd meetup once in person, which really didnāt work for me. Their āsupportā sounded so superficial to me; I felt like I was sitting among a bunch of Martians.
āI get it. I didnāt want to go NC, either. I had multiple attempts before it finally stuck. ā
My NC was forced one. At time, I could not see how I could ever get out of my sadness, although nothing positive was left at work. Itās like a coffin could not be laid down anywhere. Then, itās proven that NC was a bliss in disguise; I got a good karmaā¼ļø
āOne of them was going LC, which I think was actually worse than NC. I thought Iād be ok running into him every now and then. I wasnāt. Part of me was still on alert in case I did run into him (I never knew exactly when I would). It was a form of intermittent reinforcement, which keeps limerence alive. (Iām talking about my LO.)ā
I agree with you that LC is worse than NC, itās indeed a form of intermittent reinforcement! Personally, I dislike gray area in most matters, either all or nothing in both YES or NO. Thatās how my father taught me: either do it whole heartedly, or leave it aloneā¦ donāt make any promise if you think you canāt keep it even just for 1%āļø
[Why didnāt I feel like a Snowflake during my LEs, despite I was always subconsciously looking for a surrogate parent, a substitute of my Narc Momā]
āI donāt know. Youād have to answer that. šā
A good question! which made me to think and clarified its answer today:
1). COO and the exile already trained me like a woman warrior ā striving for and keeping mental, emotional and physical strength at any time and in any situation ā helps āthicken/save faceā.
2. I was not consciously searching for some pair-bonding mate but a surrogate parent, who would non-judgmentally listen to me and totally accept me.
3. LE was triggered right after Dadās passing and worsened along the development of the incurable Hashimoto Thyroiditis and then lymphoma, which weakened my mind and body. While preparing for the worst diagnosis during the lockdown, I did have the fear of a real death for 2 months but itās not feeling of a snowflake,
4. Once I tested ETās character and later confirmed his sensor nature, my respect, admiration, hope were all gone; heās not qualified to truly āparentā me. Still I used the chance to heal my cptsd; thus I felt more like an opportunist, not a snowflake.
āWhat made it unrecognizable? It had changed so much?ā
The appearance of the old city so dramatically changed with massive new cheaply-built buildings, removal of old copper stone streets, tram linesā¦ I could not even trace some memories. My birth dorm, that week/daycare, and the apartment compound before our exile are still standing, looking incredibly rundown and smaller.
āI believe in it, but Iām just not much of a dreamer. I never have been.ā
Perhaps your childhood life was just too flat, while mine was full of traumas, āshockingā events and book reading. I told you I was fearless child daring to break grownup rules without knowing why. I might be just more neurally-wired, thus more sensitive since birthā¦
āBecause you thought the future would be better ?ā
No. I did not think the future would be better or worse. Since itās unknown, I liked to imagine it to be better with more acquired knowledge and wisdom. Without certain amount of hopes/dreams, one cannot spiritually survive let alone prosper ā thatās the beauty of positive imagination, which was the effective mental escape against the oppressive communism and dictatorship. Unknown also has its positive sideāļø
āI actually think the key is focusing on the present (can be hard to do). Not dwelling on the past or projecting ourselves into the future.ā
Realistically and logistically Yes ā no projecting into the future, but focusing on oneās footsteps, one step ahead of another at a time. However, if youāre clearly aware youāre just envisioning/dreaming, not projecting, then itās fine as a mood regulator. What would happen if artists /writers /designers /musicians have little/no imaginations/inventionsāļø
ā Geometry. Why was that necessary? šā
Among maths, I actually liked geometry most during my middle and high school. I like shapes, their formations and interrelationships. When I had to study advanced calculus in college, I lost my interests in all math studies.
āI donāt know. Thereās really no way to know that unless he became available. ā
Very true. I thought of that question, not from his perspective, but my ownā¦. If so, compatibility and intensity of emotions on both sides would be put on the table to be examinedā¦
āI know itās common for limerents to think the only thing separating them from their LOS is the barrier (one is married, for example), but itās really hard to know for sure.ā
Absolutely. Sometimes, itās the Glimmer combined with unavailability intensified a LE, not realistic barriers. Some LOs are sheerly ādevilā incarnated, while some others just love those forbidden fruitsā¦.
āWell, Iām not trying to be harsh, but if you sent me multiple emails for months, I would think you were sending me an obvious signal you were interested. Particularly if they had personal stuff in them. Weāve talked about this before. I think thatās why your LO thought you wanted an affair.ā
You still donāt understand the great cultural misunderstandings that took place: intentions vs. perceptions and cultural ignorance of both sidesā¦. Again, I do not want to go over my šÆ over LE here. As you say, Iād like to focus my mind on Here and Now, and imagine Tomorrow and a tiny beyondā¦ š
With huge cultural differences between COO and the West, and my non-boxed, odd personality, I accidentally caused a lot misunderstandings in the past in both shores, and each experience served as a great teacher, not in vain. I can hardly summarize how much Iāve learned from LwL, some of which would make my typical COO friends literally drop their jawsā¦ š³
āI think he did. But he wanted what he wanted. I think heās pretty devastated by the sonās death.ā
Itās not just what he āwantedā, but he acted on what he wanted, and caused incalculable harms on his own family. If one truly cares for his/her beloved (ie. their children or SO), theyād think šÆ times before they conduct such potentially damage-loaded acts! Heās not excusable, and deserved his barren end ā a Malleās message āš¤
āAt the time he meets Sebastian, yes. But when he reconnects with Julia, years later, once heās married and a successful painter, heās pretty detached from his life. ā
I only liked Charles before Sebastian went away. Disconnect, middle-aged Charles looked hideous with his mustache! I could not even remember the second half.
āHedda is pretty evil. You might not like it. Ingrid Bergman plays her as well in another production. Sheās also good, but the production felt a little rushed to me.ā
Hmmā¦ an evil Hedda? Iām not sure I dig negative female roles. I care more about stories than pure performance/acting skills. Diana Rigg in āGraceā is soooo confident and attractive.
Miss Snow,
“I tried cptsd meetup once in person, which really didnāt work for me. Their āsupportā sounded so superficial to me”
I didn’t know they had such a thing.
“My NC was forced one. At time, I could not see how I could ever get out of my sadness, although nothing positive was left at work. Itās like a coffin could not be laid down anywhere. Then, itās proven that NC was a bliss in disguise; I got a good karmaā¼ļø”
That’s what NC feels like. A coffin. When you’re in the middle of an LE, you just can’t get your head around it.
“Personally, I dislike gray area in most matters, either all or nothing in both YES or NO. ”
I’m the same way. But I think most limerents like the gray area. They don’t want to get a yes or no. I must have been like that, but my last big LE changed me. I have no patience for the gray zone anymore.
“2. I was not consciously searching for some pair-bonding mate but a surrogate parent, who would non-judgmentally listen to me and totally accept me.”
I’ve had a few friendships in the past I would describe as limerent-like. They weren’t sexual (neither side wanted them to be). I wonder if that is similar to what you are describing. I didn’t want a parent like you, but I didn’t want a pair bond, either. But they were intense friendships.
“LE was triggered right after Dadās passing and worsened along the development of the incurable Hashimoto Thyroiditis and then lymphoma”
That’s a lot of stress in a short time.
“The appearance of the old city so dramatically changed with massive new cheaply-built buildings, removal of old copper stone streets, tram lines”
I HATE when cities do that. It sounds like they ripped out all the natural charm. Or at least authenticity and made it pre-fab and non-descript.
“Perhaps your childhood life was just too flat”
It wasn’t. š
“Realistically and logistically Yes ā no projecting into the future, but focusing on oneās footsteps, one step ahead of another at a time. ”
People have a tendency to not enjoy the moment, the here and now. I know I’m guilty of that.
“However, if youāre clearly aware youāre just envisioning/dreaming, not projecting, then itās fine as a mood regulator.”
Yes, but it’s often used as an escape.
“Among maths, I actually liked geometry most during my middle and high school. I like shapes, their formations and interrelationships. When I had to study advanced calculus in college, I lost my interests in all math studies.”
Math: gag. š Science: gag. š
“If so, compatibility and intensity of emotions on both sides would be put on the table to be examinedā¦”
Hard to say. He’s frozen me out. I can’t answer the question.
“Absolutely. Sometimes, itās the Glimmer combined with unavailability intensified a LE, not realistic barriers. Some LOs are sheerly ādevilā incarnated, while some others just love those forbidden fruitsā¦.”
I mean, hearing an LO say, “I’d date you if you weren’t married,” is great. It’s sheer heaven. But I’d still need to see it if their situation changed. As you and I have discussed before, someone has to back up their words with actions.
“I can hardly summarize how much Iāve learned from LwL, some of which would make my typical COO friends literally drop their jawsā¦ š³”
Yes, I remember you writing you didn’t know what an EA was before reading this site. I wasn’t trying to rehash your LE. Only saying I could see why he thought you were pursuing him.
“Heās not excusable, and deserved his barren end ā a Malleās message āš¤”
Possibly. I’ve read the book as well. His life before the LE seems barren. I’m not justifying what he did.
“I only liked Charles before Sebastian went away. Disconnect, middle-aged Charles looked hideous with his mustache! I could not even remember the second half.”
I like the second half quite a bit. Another character who is dead inside (he actually calls them his dead years) before he meets his affair partner: Julia. He eventually divorces but they have an affair before the marriage is officially over. He also signs the rights away for his kids. Is it a true love affair? I think so.
“Hmmā¦ an evil Hedda? Iām not sure I dig negative female roles. ”
It’s not negative. She’s just very chilly. And you don’t like chilly.
Oh, there was a new movie version of Hedda out last year. I’m not a fan of how the filmmakers changed Ibsen’s play. Moved the story from the turn of the century to the 1950s and made her former lover a woman instead of a man.
Marcia,
I just lost 2/3 of my response, because the page frozen and crushed! š”
āI didnāt know they had such a thing.ā
In my town, you can find any kind of meetup or organize one yourself. Through a few of them, Iāve realized that Iām really an introvert who can deal with only one-to-one, or one-to-two type of interactions or communications. And I dislike to share/broadcast my emotions; thoughts are ā
āThatās what NC feels like. A coffin. When youāre in the middle of an LE, you just canāt get your head around it.ā
Do you mean your NC or LE was like a coffin? I was alluding that my LE amber after /during NC was like a coffin, and it was blown away in the Waterloo battlefield remains with my lifetime Longing (not LE longing) š
āIām the same way. But I think most limerents like the gray area. They donāt want to get a yes or no. ā
Yes, youāre rightāļø I call(ed) that attitude as āslimyā. Nowadays I seriously question whether Iām indeed a limerent-type, since I only had one authentic LE during a life-or-death crisis. Before that, they were just a garden variety of crushes, some of which were reciprocated but did not succeeded in a LTR. š
āI must have been like that, but my last big LE changed me. I have no patience for the gray zone anymore.ā
Personal friendship or intimate LTR is not a diplomatic relationship between two nations, the gray zone/attitude would eventually kill any possible romantic/intimate LTR. Despite our shared adoptable, adventurous āPā in MBTI, we donāt want to deal with Gray zone in anything, so soul twisting š
āIāve had a few friendships in the past I would describe as limerent-like. They werenāt sexual (neither side wanted them to be). I wonder if that is similar to what you are describing.
To me, itās not a friendship: 1) they were all men, no women. 2). the feeling after a a glimmer was very intense with the symptoms of an infatuation ā my head felt on š„ . 3). My delayed libido only appeared on the radar when I was in Junior college.
āI didnāt want a parent like you, but I didnāt want a pair bond, either. But they were intense friendships.ā
Only through my therapy (2016-2018), I recognized that I was subconsciously looking for an idealized mother-figure in my crushes or LTR, thus strong femininity in those male crushes/Lš ¾ļø. Ideal femininity in women could/did not help, I never had/has lesbian tendency (most of them were weaker and less sensitive than me.)
āThatās a lot of stress in a short time.ā
It was rumored at my work that I might have got some terminal disease. When my cancer-cell-laden thyroid was taken out in one piece, it measured 22 x 18 x 4 cm (I still have a yucky photo of it), like a baby snake wrapped around my neckāļøI donāt think youād dare to touch my hand, let alone to fancy an affair with meā¦ šØ
[Perhaps your childhood life was just too flat]
āIt wasnāt. šā
Iāll leave the topic to you and your therapist. š«
āPeople have a tendency to not enjoy the moment, the here and now. I know Iām guilty of that.ā
Itās universally true, regardless culture. Currently, I scan more of my days, if there is no apparent stress, or just minor ones, then I consider Iām lucky. When my mood is low (due to nightmares or tiredness), I rationalize and be grateful for what Iāve got and what more I could give to those who I care forā¦. then my mood will be improved, often completely turned over. Dwelling on what one does/can not have breeds misery. āļø
āYes, but itās often used as an escape.ā
If oneās unhappy with his/her present life especially in big matters, then fantasies could be used as an escape. But if oneās mostly content or joyful, then envisioning /imagining is further to enhance oneās limited existence. We need to spice our daily life with our own mind ā the producer of our life qualityā¼ļø But it shouldnāt be all day long, just from moments to moments. And if youāre an artist of any kind, youāre required/inspired to do moreā¦
āMath: gag. š Science: gag. šā
I never narrowly dig topic in depth (like a PhD level), but was insatiably curious about broad subjects in scope ā science + humanity. A narrow/ignoring mind is a āhorrorā to me.
āHard to say. Heās frozen me out. I canāt answer the question.ā
That means you didnāt know his personality well. Then, youāll have to put him out of your mind; nothing to regret about the whole matter.
āI mean, hearing an LO say, āIād date you if you werenāt married,ā is great. Itās sheer heaven. ā
To be very honest, I never imagined such a sentence from ETāļøI was indeed NOT looking for a pair-bond mate. I secretly wished that heād unconditionally care for me like an idealize parent. (His care for my grief and illness just didnāt feel warm/deep enoughā¦)
āBut Iād still need to see it if their situation changed. As you and I have discussed before, someone has to back up their words with actions.ā
š! Even if their actions are just clumsy attemptsā¦ š
āYes, I remember you writing you didnāt know what an EA was before reading this site. ā
Oui! I had no idea about what Glimmer, infatuation, EA, mental OCD, push-n-pull, behavioral addictionā¦etc, really mean and how they are manifested in interactions among colleagues or in oneās daily life.
āI wasnāt trying to rehash your LE. Only saying I could see why he thought you were pursuing him.ā
Now, itās so embarrassing to think of itā¦ š. I want to put the past firmly in the pastāļø
āPossibly. Iāve read the book as well. His life before the LE seems barren. Iām not justifying what he did.ā
Well, if his life was spiritually barren, then in the end, his physical life was also barrenāļø Why was his life beforehand barren, since he had such a big career, loving wife, and two children? What was he truly missing? Torrid affairs ā¤ļøāš„?
āI like the second half quite a bit. Another character who is dead inside (he actually calls them his dead years) before he meets his affair partner: Julia.ā
Now, I remember a little bit of that. Julia was his old friend, carrying Sebastianās blood! Of course, itās natural and logic that heād fall for her after he married that bimbo wife. It also shows that heās mentally bi-sexual, able to deeply love both the brother and sister in the same degreeāļø
āHe eventually divorces but they have an affair before the marriage is officially over. He also signs the rights away for his kids. Is it a true love affair? I think so.ā
Could be! Itās like the love affair between Sting and his present wife.
āItās not negative. Sheās just very chilly. And you donāt like chilly.ā
After my chilly, cruel mom, I did/do not want to see any chilly female on or off the screen; that type traumatized my childhood and youth and made me so singularā¦ š
Nowadays, I AM my own parent, keeping learning about femininity š§āāļøand bending down my Animus š¤ŗ š¤