Happy Christmas LwL peeps!
This seasonal trip to the virtual coffeehouse was inspired by Onyx, who emailed to suggest that the relationship between Iris and Jasper in the romantic comedy “The Holiday” is a good example of limerence.
Even better, it’s a good example of the topic I’ve been writing about recently of late – enabling limerent objects – and it’s a Christmas film.
To set the scene: Iris is a reporter who writes a society column for a big newspaper. Jasper is her colleague, and complicated situationship lover.
It’s Christmas. Iris gets Jasper a thoughtful present. Jasper’s isn’t quite so nice:
This is the initiating event for the story when Iris decides she has to escape her life for a bit and takes that Holiday; house-swapping with a Hollywood executive girlboss.
Shenanigans occur.
Love lessons are learned.
Ever-afters are happier as a result.
It’s not a highly regarded film, but I’m a sucker for romantic comedy, so I like it, and Jasper is a world-class dodgy LO. Exemplar of the form.
A total rotter. Manipulative, narcissistic, duplicitous, weak.
So, if you’re looking for a Christmassy and undemanding film, check it out!
If not… then don’t bother.
Just watch Die Hard again.
Or Indiana Jones.
It’s all good.
Best wishes to all.
I actually watched both “It” movies over Christmas. I don’t recommend them, but they kept my mind off all the other problems I was having.
I lost a tooth, my liver doctor called with bad news, and I (prematurely) needed a new furnace. Add to that it was Christmas and I unfortunately have no way to make plans. I didn’t hear from my kids, and I am just glad the whole mess is over.
Also, LO was MIA.
You can see why a horror movie can actually be an inspired choice.
But then she falls for Jack Black who creeps me out in this movie for some reason…
Also, in my opinion, evil LOs like this one are the easiest to ditch, aren’t they? If my LOs would have been that obviously evil, it wouldn’t have been so hard to wave a goodbye, feeling righteous.
Norma, sorry about your furnace! by no means do I want to shine a good light on your LO, but I also texted some of my friends only on 26, like your LO. Christmas is just so busy.
It just shows that he isn’t evil, but that you aren’t the most important person in the world for him.
For me, that kind of realization was always even more a wake-up-call than him being mean or neglectful: he’s ok but he just doesn’t think as much of me as I do of him.
Belated merry Christmas to everyone!
I had a lot of family stuff etc and no time to really read here, but I saw that Speedwagon and Lost in Space posted, glad they are back!
I hope everyone had a lovely or at least peaceful holiday!
Oh, just saw your post about the tooth and liver news. I hope the new year will be better healthwise💪🏻💪🏻
To Mila:
Thank you for your good thoughts.
I know that LO isn’t evil, although sometimes it helps me to think of him that way. When he contacted me yesterday, he was very friendly and wants to get together today. I could tell he had no sense that he should have tried to get hold of me either on the 24th or the 25th.
He could have done so–he was alone with his mother for a good deal of the time and only got together with the whole family on Thursday night.
It just doesn’t occur to him that I am completely alone over the holidays and would appreciate the contact. On the other hand, he is not responsible for me being alone.
I don’t actually know if I need to panic regarding my liver. It could be nothing. Definitely not cancer. I have had a liver biopsy which came back fine and a fibroscan which also came out fine.
But if I can find a reason to panic, I will do so.
„i could tell he had no sense that he should have tried to get hold of me either on the 24th or the 25th.“
That’s what I mean- he „should have“, but why? Whose rules?
I know exactly what I’m talking about because I was also feeling my XLO „should have“ done or said this and that. But in the end, he owes me nothing, I‘m not entitled to any kind of behavior.
The only thing is to acknowledge how he behaves and to say, I’ve no right to expect stuff from him, but I’ve got the right to say that that’s not what I mean by friendship, and redefine the relationship.
Also, especially concerning holidays or birthdays, people handle them really differently. For some they are very important, for some not. Some want privacy over the holidays and some want contact.
So him not texting on the exact day you want him to text doesn’t mean anything. Just saying.
But then, I do understand this so very well :
„ I know that LO isn’t evil, although sometimes it helps me to think of him that way.“ It helped me to acknowledge and stress XLOs bad sides. They are just not the whole truth, and to get totally independent one has to see LO neutrally, i guess.
I hold my thumbs for the liver problems. Good to know it isn‘t cancer. Try not to worry too much before there’s some result!
To Mila:
Thank you for your nice message.
I fully realize that LO owes me nothing. I remind myself of that constantly.
It would be nice if he was a little more thoughtful, though.
Yes, he definitely doesn’t seem to be a thoughtful or emphatic person. I wish he would finally take care of that picture if yours and bring it back to you.
To Mila:
You and me both! The latest is that the framing company is moving from one town to another (nearby), and when they move their stock, they will supposedly bring the painting to LO’s storage unit. I have no idea where that is, but it seems like an excellent step forward.
Norma,
Hope for the picture at last!
My assessment so far of your LO (please ignore it if you want, because of course you know him so much better): your LO sounds like a slightly extravagant, quite self-centered neighbor with a choleric problem who likes you, maybe mainly as an audience for his house worries and other stuff, but maybe that’s the extent of how much he can like people. So he likes you as much as he can like people, which means you won’t get ever more affection from him than now. If that’s not enough for you you should maybe try to grade him down in your mind to a sometimes friendly neighbor so as not to be constantly disappointed by his neglectfulness.
I think he might not be neglectful because he doesn’t like you but because he might be someone who simply doesn’t give more.
The important thing is your wellbeing, physically and mentally! You go first, Norma- if his company does you good, why not, if not, you‘ve no obligation to him.
To Mila:
Thank you for your insightful comments. I think you’re spot-on.
We were at Starbucks yesterday for two hours, and we were sitting next to each other in padded chairs. I noticed the difference in our body language.
My arms were open and I leaned toward him. His legs were crossed away from me and his arms were folded across his chest most of the time.
I do think he likes me as much as he is capable of doing, but like the Grinch, his abilities are very limited.
We still had a lot of fun reminiscing about old TV shows. I mentioned in another post that LO got stuck trying to remember the name of a famous American comedian from the 1960s or 1970s, and he could not come up with the name, despite googling the era and scrolling through dozens of pictures.
He kept saying, “I can see him in my mind! He has a round face, and used to dress up in a wig with a bun, and he wore a black dress with a white collar.”
This meant nothing to me, but I did eventually come up with the name of Jonathan Winters, although I didn’t recollect the character in the black dress. LO wasn’t sure, did a search on his phone, and came up with a photo of Mr. Winters dressed as a woman in that exact costume.
I said, “Fun fact. Jonathan Winters and I share a birthday.”
I thought he’d believe me. He just took me out for my birthday last month. But instead, Mr. Wizard says, “What day is that?” OMG, he forgot already. I said, “November 11.” And he looked it up, and duh, of COURSE I was right.
He was suitably impressed. One of the few times I was able to dazzle him with my brilliance.
I just spent two hours with LO and it went pretty well.
We got off to a bad start somehow, because I said something (?) that triggered him. We were talking about AIDS. He accused me of being “sensationalistic,” and I truly don’t even know what that means. He was angry and said, “I just want to relax and have a nice conversation.”
I thought that’s what we were doing.
However, the rest of the conversation went well. We talked about old TV shows, and he said he was trying to remember the name of a famous comedian from the 1960s who dressed up in women’s clothes and played different characters. Not a drag performer, but an actor/comedian who sometimes put on costumes for a specific comedy sketch.
LO and I spent over an hour trying to come up with the name, and finally I said, “Jonathan Winters.” Bingo! He was so happy. I said, “I hope I have redeemed myself,” and he said, “no redemption is necessary,” which I took to mean that he knew he had over-reacted earlier.
I got bonus points for mentioning that Jonathan Winters and I share the same birthday, and he could not believe I knew that.
I told him that I had no idea what I had done/said wrong, and he is just going to have to tell me when I do it again.
I don’t think I made my limerence better or worse today, although his unwarranted snappishness does tend to drive me away. Just when I think he’s mellowing out and I’m in the clear, he flies off the handle. So I can never really relax around him.
Norma, yesterday’s encounter sounds positive, including the argument. If it weren’t for pesky limerence, his friendship would be a valuable one to have, including the bickering. He provides interesting company and if you weren’t limerent for him I reckon you’d just be able to laugh off his snappishness and not take it to heart. Let’s hope that is where the future of your friendship with him lies.
Good news about the painting, although I know that the painting’s return and its presence in your life is complicated at best.
To Miss Cloud:
If I ever get the painting back, I will always think of LO when I look at it, despite the fact that it was painted for me by my sister.
His snappishness is problematic. I wouldn’t even call it bickering. I myself am a very conciliatory person who doesn’t like to argue. His barking at me is unwarranted and it really hurts. The dumb things he blows up over are, well, dumb.
Yesterday it was because he was talking about getting into an argument with a bigoted minister who said that AIDS was God’s punishment on gay people. Well, LO was not going to stand for that. I remarked that in Africa, AIDS is spread equally between men and women because of the unfortunate practice of blood-letting in native religions.
He blew up at me and accused me of being “sensationalistic.” Is that sensationalistic? I never thought about it. Am I wrong? Should I not have said that?
I wisely steered the conversation to TV comedy shows from the 1960s. LO and I are six years apart, so his taste and mine would have been different due to him being younger.
The rest of the conversation went great. What I realized is that LO is stressed out, and that discussion of heavy topics overwhelms him.
Which makes me wonder about the evening I texted him and told him that Rob Reiner had been murdered. Is that being sensationalist?
I don’t like having to censor myself that way. I’m not sure there is a future for a non-limerent relationship between us. I really can’t stand being snapped at that way, period. It hurts more coming from LO but I tend to avoid people who do that.
Norma,
am I right that you told him that you didn’t know where you went wrong in the conversation and he should tell you next time? (I read that in another of your posts).
That’s putting yourself deliberately in the wrong.
I think it would be better to simply tell him in clear words that you don’t like him snapping at you and that it hurts you.
„ I told him that I had no idea what I had done/said wrong, and he is just going to have to tell me when I do it again“
I found it. I don’t think that’s going to stop him snapping. He‘s in the wrong, not you.
To Mila:
Good point. I should have had you there with me.
“He provides interesting company and if you weren’t limerent for him I reckon you’d just be able to laugh off his snappishness and not take it to heart.”
Thanks, Cloud, this just gave me a little lightbulb moment. I suppose my LOs have always been a little bit toxic due to past wounds (not to excuse them), but not terribly so in the grand scheme of things. BUT, I always failed in being casual friends with them because my limerence made me SO DEATHLY SERIOUS about every flip thing that would come out of their mouths. I’d watch with wonder as their normal, laid back friends would take this stuff in stride and just banter back. I cringe to think of myself being like that now (luckily I think the cringe helped with the recovery, like embarrassing mental home movies I’d rather not play back!).
All her problems, plights, issues, baggage and past was mine to shoulder. I couldn’t (unlike all the other female employees I’ve had in my lifetime) do any less. I thought and hoped that I could fix her to be happy again. I didn’t see realistically that those things were her burdens and responsibility. Not mine. But I made them mine.
To Adam:
I have made that mistake, too. We certainly can’t fix anyone else.
We really can’t seem to even fix ourselves.
Miss Norma
I remember shortly after I found this place that Limerent Emeritus told me (I have read Dr L’s “savior complex” blog post many, many times over the years) “that you can’t save someone who doesn’t want to be saved.” He suggested that LO’s relationship failures, weren’t just on the men she was with. That there are two people in a relationship and they both contribute to the outcome. For him to even suggest that LO was in any way shape or form a contributing factor to her failed relationships enraged me. I was so mad at him that I couldn’t respond for days because he angered me so much. To even suggest that she wasn’t the perfect angel I saw her as, I wasn’t ready for. But eventually I realized his point. Some truths are just to harsh to take in stride.
To Adam:
Do you tend to idealize a lot of people in your life, or was it just this one person?
Women more often, if not always, than men. Nice people call me old fashioned. The rest call me sexist. I take role as a protector and provider to woman maybe too seriously. But I don’t know how else to be and I think at a subconscious level I tend to idealize women, yes.
To Adam:
It’s good that you know this about yourself.
Knowledge is power.
Dr L,
I find it actually interesting that you are a „sucker for romantic comedy“. I have to admit that I like to watch them too while SO hates most of them (because let’s be honest, most of them are badly written, cheap stuff). I also have to admit that I turn to (also really, really bad) romantic chick lit to relax myself, something completely undemanding with a happy ending. It seems to fulfill some need I have. But it feels like eating sweets- a kind of guilty pleasure, something compulsive. I might add that otherwise I‘m a big reader of demanding stuff and quite critical, but somehow there’s something in me- the limerent?- that enjoys that sugary crap.
Have you had any inkling in your surveys that limerents like romantic comedies and such? Because most men I know don’t like romcoms, but maybe limerents, no matter which gender, enjoy them?
I enjoy trashy romantic chick lit too. Do you have any recommendations for me? I think it would hit the spot right now.
Oh god, I don’t think I can recommend any of it 🙈
I went through almost all Maeve Binchy and Marian Keyes stuff, having a soft spot for Ireland, it’s basically chick lit but with unnerving touches of wanting to be taken seriously (sorry, fans), and some stuff by Jill Mansell, Beth O’Leary or Fiona Whatsit (sorry), and basically I look what’s on Prime reading (mostly awful stuff that even I cannot finish)or not too expensive . Maybe someone else can give you better advice, I’m just too embarrassed by it.
Ah, maybe I’ll read another Marian Keyes! I’ve read several and always enjoyed them. They have a serious message but dressed up in chick-lit style. Maybe I’ll try the other authors you mention. Thanks.
Hello everyone – new here this week. And, I’m not gonna lie, hope I’m not here too long, no offense 😁
I didn’t know what limerence was a week ago. As a discovery, it reminds me of when I first read about ASD & ADHD and had that “OMG” lightbulb moment that illuminated what’s been happening with me for a hell of a long time. Quite a humbling thing in mid-life when you feel like you ought to have everything nicely sorted out and under control.
I’ll spare you all the thread hijack with the full story (honestly, right now I could write 10,000 words before even stopping to wonder if it’s time for a new paragraph), but after 6 months in what I only now realise to be an LE, and an enthralling series of escalations (the quiz here assesses her to be enabling), it’s the family pressures of this season, and the dip in contact that have exposed the reality to me for the first time. And I can’t unsee it now.
I now feel like I’ve been a grossly exaggerated version of myself, everyday for 6 months. Invigorated – reborn even – and awash with positivity, but it turns out I was one of those tube men outside the gas station that relies on constant inflation from a fan, but when the shutters came down for Christmas, someone turned off the power. All that’s left is a sad, deflated fool. And yet at the same time, I’ve known for a long time that I’d caught a tiger by the tail. Looking back in my journal, I wrote those very words within hours of the first time we had dinner alone together, months ago.
After a few months of wondering whether I still need my therapist, boy am I looking forward to discussing it all with her next week, and working out a forward plan.
DrL’s posts and the commentary below them are all very enlightening and helpful, so thanks to you all.
I hope everyone is able to find some joy this season and plot a course to contentment in 2026.
Welcome AdamR,
and may I say how lucky you are that you’ve found a good therapist whom you trust!
Have a lovely Sunday evening and I hope the new year will bring you peace and new developments to the better.
To AdamR:
Your comments resonate with me. I also feel like a deflated tube man.
I hope you can find some relief. Please stick around. Reading and posting can be very helpful.
Welcome, AdamR. May your journey to freedom be swift and smooth.
I do hope for your sake you’re not around long, but I adore the way you described your situation. Oh, how I have been there.
https://imgur.com/a/7lbv2pk
https://imgur.com/a/sVP9bsf
Aw, hugs, Adam! I read it all.
To Adam:
Sending you love and good thoughts.
I wish for you some peace of mind.
https://imgur.com/a/ZPaX5lD
To Adam:
That song, “Red Red Wine,” always makes me queasy because I watched the music video a lot while I was pregnant and had horrible morning sickness.
Impossible for me to enjoy the song because of that.
Miss Norma
Momma tells me my dear mother in law (Debbie in my notes) HATED their cover of that song lol I personally think they did way better than Neil. I also think the Monkees’ version is the best of I’m A Believer.
To Adam:
I forgot, who else did “I’m A Believer?” I was around for the original by the Monkees, and it was one of my absolute favorite songs at the time.
Hm, I might watch this one. The Bishop’s Wife is another good Christmas-y limerence movie. 🙂
Dr. L,
The holidays have given me a chance to catch up on all your videos. I’ve now watched all the videos you have available on your YT channel. I thought, during the year, I had missed three of them. But it turns out I had missed only two of them… 🙂
The video I thought I skipped over but actually watched was “The Secret to Beating Limerence”. The introduction reminded me so much of Limerent Emeritus and his convoluted story (as a person who has had more than one LE in life) that I found it hard to pay attention to the last two-thirds of the video.
The videos I hadn’t actually seen before were “Five Benefits of Limerence” and “Break Free from Limerence” (The one that recoomends no contact).
I think it’s very funny that one of the videos I skipped over was the one that recommends no contact. I wonder if that was intentional avoidance on my part? Happily, most of Fenna’s videos relate to the subject of no contact in some way, so I am aware that people think no contact is a really good thing for people in limerence to do and likely the fastest way to end unwanted emotional spirals.
In the video “Five Benefits of Limerence”, you make a joke that goes something like this: “Remember, people, poetry should be used responsibly.” I like that. That’s actually rather witty. Sadly, I don’t think some very grand historical personages such as Lord Byron and Lady Caroline Lamb got the memo. 😆
I’ve just realised that another person in the online limerence space sometimes uses the term “paramour” is discussions, and that person is Dr. Joe Beam. He probably uses the term “paramour” because he and his team primarily work/worked with married people in limerence.
In the article “The Truth About Limerence Affairs”, (April 30, 2015), Dr. Joe Beam offers up what I thought was a really beautiful quote: “Those of us who have been through limerence testify that it is a strange, overwhelming sensation that vacillates wildly between love and fear, joy and misery.”
Personally, I wonder exactly how “fear” factors into the equation (since limerence is or starts out as “runaway reward”)? Are people in limerence afraid that something/someone is going to take away their much-coveted reward? Is it the fabled “promise of ecstasy” that limerents are wont to guard so jealousy? 🙂
Okay. So Christmas is a festive time of year. I would like to make a post that’s a bit fun and a bit flamboyant and a tiny bit irreverent. although it does relate strongly to the theme of limerence-suffused Christmas movies. I would also like to dedicate this particular post to fellow reader Serial, due to the film she mentioned, her own religious background, and her well-known love of music.
I actually watched the film “The Preacher’s Wife” during the height of my high school limerence while I was still in contact with my LO. (I’m assuming everyone is talking about the 1996 remake starring Whitney Houston. I saw it on TV a few years after its release date. The time must have been Christmas 1999).
True story: I actually remember having extremely severe mood swings while watching the film. For some reason, the dialogue made me really depressed. But then, whenever Whitney opened her mouth to sing, I felt euphoric. 🙂
My older sister, who is also prone to limerence, was watching the movie with me. She (my sister) hated the moment when Julie’s domineering religious mother (Julie is The Preacher’s Wife) told Julie that Julie “better get her house in order”, or words to that effect. Really, looking back, I think Julie’s mum was warning Julie about possibly jeopardising marriage to Henry (Julie’s husband in the film aka The Preacher) by entertaining romantic thoughts for Dudley (Mr Wonderful).
If I wanted to be facetious, I would say the moral to “The Preacher’s Wife” is this: if you find yourself falling in love with someone who isn’t your spouse, don’t go ice-skating with them. Ice-skating with that person is probably a bad idea. 😉
There are some fantastic songs on the film soundtrack: “I Believe in You and Me”, “Step by Step”, “My Heart is Calling”. Unfortunately, I’m not Whitney and I can’t really sing any of them properly. If I nail the low notes, I can’t nail the high notes. If I nail the high notes, I can’t hit the low notes. To misquote (and revise the gender of) singer Shirley Bassey’s alleged waspish comment about fellow singer Tina Turner: “He hasn’t the range! He hasn’t the range!” 🤣🤣😁
I actually once attempted to sing some of the dazzling vocal runs from “I Believe in You and Me” in the boys’ toilet block at school when I thought I was alone. Turns out I wasn’t alone. At some splendaciously magnolious moment in the song, some random young man walked in on me, and looked at me like I was insane. (Could his ears have been bleeding from whatever portion of the song he overheard? Some questions are surely best left unasked). 😜
To this particular young man, I felt like saying the following: “Gee, I’m sorry. I didn’t know this place was a lavatory, or an outhouse, or whatever you people call it. I mistook it for the Sydney Opera House. I mean, the acoustics are amazing! Have you tried out the acoustics? And when I sang, like any great artist, I like to hear myself sang. I like to hear a rich masculine vibrato bouncing off the walls. And no, my grammar isn’t off – ‘singing’ is what amateurs do while ‘sanging’ is what non-amateurs do. Don’t believe me? Ask Yolanda Adams.”
“Also, I would like to apologise if my taste in music personally offends you. Some of us actually like grown-up music made by grown-ups for other grown-ups. Not all of us teenage boys enrolled in Christian school like Nivana in Pyjamas. And when I say ‘Nivana in Pyjamas’, I mean Silverchair.” (No offence to Daniel Johns, lead singer of Silverchair. Like millions of screaming teenage girls before me, beside me, and after me, I adore Daniel Johns – both the man and his music).
During my time at Christian school, I always had a sneaking suspicion that my peers didn’t really understand music. and the way music is supposed to be performed. For example, our worship team for Chapel consisted of five singers (all female). Three of those singers sang lead and two of those singers sang backup. What was that awful setup about?
I felt like taking the young women aside for a quiet word: “Listen, ladies. I know you don’t want to hurt the feelings of anyone who’s part of your friendship group. But there’s ‘inclusion’ and then there’s such a thing as ‘taking inclusion too far’. Ever heard of the saying ‘too many cooks spoil the broth’? If the number of lead singers in a band eclipse the number of backup singers in a band, because no one is brave enough to identify who the best singers are, something’s gone wrong.”
Speaking of music gone wrong, I recently watched footage of two drag queens lip-sync to Katy Perry’s latest offering “Woman’s World”. Katy Perry was in the audience and saw the performance and enjoyed it. However, here’s the problem – the drag queens actually made their performance of the song look classier than Katy’s own version. If a forty-something-year-old woman with a baby is a serious recording artist, and she’s being routinely outshone by run-of-the-mill drag queens, I’d say that middle-aged female artist needs to rethink some of her artistic choices. (And I say this with love, as a lifelong Katy Perry fan).
Now let’s talk of music gone right. Madonna has a song in her catalogue called “Frozen”. I’m not really a fan of Madonna’s version of the song – it sounds stale, like a bag of peas that’s been left in the freezer too long. However, if you take that same song and put it in the mouth of a male singer – preferably some big macho man with a gorgeous baritone voice – suddenly, the song becomes this beautiful piece about loss, this haunting hymn to heartbreak. I think some songs simply don’t work well when sung from the perspective of one sex. But switch up the sexes and suddenly the song makes sense – both lyrically and vocally. 😉
By happy coincidence, I just watched The Preacher’s Wife last night. I hadn’t seen it in many years. It was a good revision, not just “copying” but making it into its own piece of art. Julia’s mom didn’t look like a grandmother, lol. Dudley was adorable. 🙂 And yes, Whitney’s singing was in full force. I listened to the credits to the end to hear the songs. 🙂
I recall there were many good Christian artists when I was a kid listening to Christian rock, which I still pull out now and then to listen to, but you did have to sift through a lot of stuff that was poorly produced. But of course, there’s a lot of that in “secular” music, too. But at least they’re not “forbidden” from listening to “devil music,” so they know what good music sounds like.
I remember “Frozen”; I have that album because one of the songs was used to promote Felicity—another show about limerence.
Sometimes you don’t even need to change the person’s sex to change the perspective of a song. Somone else’s interpretation sometimes can make a world of difference. I have several popular love songs on LOs playlist, not sung by the original artist, that I find way better.
This came into my playlist as I have been opening up to more country here lately. This has got to be the most limerent song I have ever heard. Alan Jackson (I hope I am remembering it right) sang this song at George’s funeral.
He Stopped Loving Her Today — George Jones
https://youtu.be/y-epaEV7gIE?si=_BQpgn-O5zPWBUWj
The Hand
Mary Ruefle
1952 –
The teacher asks a question.
You know the answer, you suspect
you are the only one in the classroom
who knows the answer, because the person
in question is yourself, and on that
you are the greatest living authority,
but you don’t raise your hand.
You raise the top of your desk
and take out an apple.
You look out the window.
You don’t raise your hand and there is
some essential beauty in your fingers,
which aren’t even drumming, but lie
flat and peaceful.
The teacher repeats the question.
Outside the window, on an overhanging branch,
a robin is ruffling its feathers
and spring is in the air.
*****
“To be or not be, that is the question, whether…”
A Hand
Jane Hirshfield
1953 –
A hand is not four fingers and a thumb.
Nor is it palm and knuckles,
not ligaments or the fat’s yellow pillow,
not tendons, star of the wristbone, meander of veins.
A hand is not the thick thatch of its lines
with their infinite dramas,
nor what it has written,
not on the page,
not on the ecstatic body.
Nor is the hand its meadows of holding, of shaping—
not sponge of rising yeast-bread,
not rotor pin’s smoothness,
not ink.
The maple’s green hands do not cup
the proliferant rain.
What empties itself falls into the place that is open.
A hand turned upward holds only a single, transparent question.
Unanswerable, humming like bees, it rises, swarms, departs.
—2000
This Living Hand
John Keats
1795 –1821
This living hand, now warm and capable
Of earnest grasping, would, if it were cold
And in the icy silence of the tomb,
So haunt thy days and chill thy dreaming nights
That thou wouldst wish thine own heart dry of blood
So in my veins red life might stream again,
And thou be conscience-calmed—see here it is—
I hold it towards you.
Have not posted for a few months
Laid off at work, LO still is there. I now have NO contact with her. Suffering is off the charts. If I was single with no kids… I would be starting to drink ( I am not a drinker now… but have had a couple of drinks… helped a lot )… I know, NOT a good plan. But I would at least be numb… I just need to stop the pain.
Trying so hard to hide my suffering from my wife.
So much for daily walks with LO…. and seeing her at work. It has been 3 weeks, and its getting worse, much worse. Being with her daily has now made forced NC into HELL.
I am sure that I will never see her again… 🙁
Sorry for randomly posting…. I just need someone to talk with… tried Therapy… she was NO help at all. No friends to talk to who would understand.
Limerence is LONELY HELL
To NTL:
Oh, dear. I have been thinking about you and hoped you were doing better.
Have you considered Dr. Tom’s emergency course? I can’t remember what it’s called. I myself have not taken it, but someone else might be able to give you some feedback.
I understand Limerence Hell, because I live there, too.
Norma
Thanks for your kind words
To NTL:
I should have asked for clarification with your work situation.
Are you retiring now, or are you looking for another job?
Wow, that’s a lot to endure at once, new_to_limerence. You were laid off and you abruptly went NC from your LO. Yikes.
I can see why you dabbled with alcohol, but can you try to avoid it in the future? I don’t think it will help. I can understand why you went there because even though I’m a practicing Mormon (we don’t drink), I have found myself thinking, “So this is why people drink alcohol” during particularly difficult struggles. I haven’t done it, but I’ve thought about it.
Because of your layoff, you are in a transition phase. Transitions are always difficult. You will find your new normal, but it might be uncomfortable for a while. What kinds of plans do you have for the future?
It sounds like you feel isolated because you are experiencing limerence hell (great description by the way) and you can’t talk to anyone about it. I hope we see you on LwL more frequently because you can talk to us. Those withdrawal symptoms are real. Your body was flooding with feel-good hormones and the absence of those hormones is rough. I wonder if there is a healthy way to trigger your feel-good hormones. Any ideas?
Hang in there, Buddy. You’ll get through this.
Hello Lovisa
I know that drinking is NOT an answer… but it would dull the pain ( not gonna do it though )
What makes it worse… LO is not needing me anymore ( there was, on the day I left, a HUGE positive change in her life 🙂 🙂 🙂 I am so happy for her! ) I do not think she will try to communicate with me… she has other real friends and family in her life 🙂 I was, I think, a pleasant co-worker to go on walks with. I don’t think I am / was an important person in her life.
My plans now… ride the suffering out ( it is only me hurting, not anyone else, so thats good ) and just be happy for her. To be honest, I was never deserving of being her friend, and she will be better than fine without me! I will not be someone she misses 🙂
Anyways, wrapped in self-suffering, I will be reading and posting here more.
To NTL:
Don’t sell yourself short. Limerence is bad enough without feeling that you didn’t “deserve” to be LO’s friend.
Limerence is about unrequited longing, as opposed to not deserving.
Without limerence it is painful enough to come to the realization that you weren’t as important to someone as they were to you. Mix in limerence and it is agonizing. But you have stated that you are concerned for her happiness, even if it is without you. And it is my reason why I leave her to her life, even if I can’t be in it.
Adam and Norma
Norma… I indeed am VERY unworthy of her friendship… she is a a different social status, smarter, better educated, etc. I was always surprised she wanted to spend any time with me… I was lucky and I knew it. I tried twice to get her to spend her walking time with someone else, anyone else really, at work. She became VERY upset when I suggested it, and would not allow it.
Adam…
“Without limerence it is painful enough to come to the realization that you weren’t as important to someone as they were to you. Mix in limerence and it is agonizing. But you have stated that you are concerned for her happiness, even if it is without you. And it is my reason why I leave her to her life, even if I can’t be in it.”
Her happiness is my main concern. I was a “self appointed” protector of her on our walks, and a least a couple of time wrapped myself around her to protect her from what I thought would harm her ( a dog, possible traffic / car danger, and an angry threatening man ), and if she is happier without me in her life “bothering” her ( I always assume I am bothering people ) then then I will leave her alone ( she has close friends and family, and a husband ), she doesnt need me 🙂
I can endure the heartache and Limerence withdrawal
To NTL:
I don’t want to argue with you, but I will point out that my LO is wealthy, much smarter and much better educated than I am.
I often can’t keep up with him in conversation because I have some brain damage. I have explained my limitations to him and I am not sure he understands, but he is fairly tolerant.
Which is not to say that our relationship works super-well. We definitely have many problems, some of which I have detailed on this board.
But I don’t think I would say that I “don’t deserve” to spend time with LO. Everyone brings something to a relationship. I am kindly and a good listener. That’s what I bring. Even though I don’t have a degree in architecture. Even though I don’t understand half of what LO talks about.
I do wish you would re-think that one aspect of your relationship. Maybe you DON’T deserve a friendship with her, but you could be wrong.
NTL,
I am going to be quite careful with my words here, as I don’t want to be enabling.
The best thing – I believe – that you can do now for yourself is to let yourself go through the Death of Hope for this LE. So NC is your best option for the long term, now it is an option, even if it feels awful.
But that aside, I kind of agree with Norma, but with slightly different reasoning. You said: “I was always surprised she wanted to spend any time with me… I was lucky and I knew it”.
Whatever the barriers or differences between you two, it wasn’t pure luck – what about the role of her agency in it all? She had choices not to spend time walking with you, or to spend time with others. She didn’t take those choices, she chose to spend the time with you.
So don’t be too hard on yourself or say you didn’t deserve her friendship. That was her choice to give it, or not.
Endure your DoH now – it isn’t easy, but you can do it with the help of the folks in this place who’ve gone through it. But don’t confuse that with demeaning or denigrating your own value as a person.
NTL,
I remember that pain my Friend. I know it hurts and I know that sinking feeling in your gut, where it feels so overwhelming. Where all you want is her, her comfort or just to even look at her in the flesh again.. Mine wavered from LC to NC for well over a year. The worst of my fits lasting at least a good 6 months. I cried for days and days and days, like bawling my eyes out sadness and I thought it would never end. It wasn’t until I met someone else, that helped me move beyond it being just about LO and no other. I still sometimes get sad over her, but emotionally I’m not torn in any way like I was. She’s still so perfect and beautiful to me in every and probably always will be. But she’s not front and center, as in where I need to put all my focus on. I’m past the altered state of mind, to see it was never going anywhere in the first place.
You will get over this hump in time. It’s super hard right now I know. You wonder why you feel so alone. As if nobody will ever satiate you like her. It can happen and it will. Many of us here know this feeling well. We are here for you.
If I remember correctly, don’t you have a Wife also? Forgive me if I’m wrong but if not, perhaps this is an area of your life you need to begin looking at again and finding how to fully connect with.
Norma –
I am an odd mix… internally I am very confident, and have no social anxiety … but I am SURE that in regards to others, in anything beyond casual chatting… that I am annoying, irritating and generally not wanted ( oddly, when alone on a walk with LO… I never felt that way…. she was amazingly calming and pleasant to be with ( GOD I miss her!!!! ). I was totally un-deserving of her.
LaR –
Yes… Death of Hope… that is it 🙁
And yes… LO for some unexplainable reason seemed to have, maybe, liked our time together?? Very odd.
MJ – ” Where all you want is her, her comfort or just to even look at her in the flesh again “. That actually is making me cry. Why did you have to write these words????
I just want to be with her again. I can feel myself on the verge of tears, all day long.
Yes, MJ… I have a Wife… she had been understanding about LO and my addiction, as understanding as she could be. She is viewing the NC as a positive thing. I am trying VERY hard not to simply melt down in front of my Wife. I am hiding this Terrible pain and Loss. I am working on our connection.
I feel I am on the edge of a Breakdown
This is constant and HORRIBLE and non-sharable pain.
I need to find an in-person group therapy support group. Mostly, I just need to cry.
Thanks to you all for your supportive words, it means a lot to me.
To NTL:
I asked this question elsewhere, but I can’t find it now.
Are you retiring, or are you looking for another job?
Not to continue the argument about “deserving,” but it appears that LO enjoyed your walks tremendously. You must have given her something of yourself that she liked. Do you think she only walked with you out of pity?
Hi Norma… I always enjoy seeing you here. Your story is fascinating to me.
I am looking for new employment.
I do not think it was “pity “. But my psychological makeup is such that I cannot imagine anyone enjoying time with me.
I know that she knew I loved her ( I have told her that ), and was always interested in listening to her ( about her life and her challenges and hopes, etc ), and was by FAR her biggest supporter !!!!
I really miss her 🙁 It has been almost 3 weeks.
“That actually is making me cry. Why did you have to write these words????”
Because I’ve been in that place. I know how it feels.
Everything made me cry. Even seeing a car that looked like hers would make me cry.
“I just want to be with her again. I can feel myself on the verge of tears, all day long.”
There were a few days I thought I wouldn’t make it through at work because she transferred out. I looked for her in places I would always see her and didn’t, so all I did was weep. I actually went looking for her in places I knew she wouldn’t be and I still wept. It was hard but eventually I stopped doing this..
It becomes old when this is all you do with your days. You’re going to grow tired of this feeling at some point. I wish this for you asap.
“I have a Wife… she had been understanding about LO and my addiction, as understanding as she could be. She is viewing the NC as a positive thing.”
Of course she is. She’s probably trying to be hopeful you will put your focus back on her. As it rightly should be. She’s stuck with you this far so don’t let her down. You don’t want to be single, hopeless and miserable like me..
“I am trying VERY hard not to simply melt down in front of my Wife. I am hiding this Terrible pain and Loss. I am working on our connection.
I feel I am on the edge of a Breakdown.
This is constant and HORRIBLE and non-sharable pain.
I need to find an in-person group therapy support group. Mostly, I just need to cry.”
Yes I would say get out of the house and find a safe spot to cry your eyes out. I did this for a long time. Went for long drives, cried for hours and yelled at God. I made a playlist of sad songs over her. I wrote her poetry, went out to the lake and yelled at the water. I almost even felt like ramming my car into a wall at 90mph with me in it. I was so over-dramatic over everything and none of it ever really made anything much better. Yet eventually I got sick of feeling that way..
You’re in the worst of it right now. Probably at the bottom from the way it sounds, but all you can do is go up from there.
I would also start by maybe looking into the Doctors emergency de-programming course if your tears become so much, you consider doing something harmful. Ending things over this person is not the answer.
MJ
PLEASE keep replying to me…. I appreciate your viewpoint and input SO much
————————————
“That actually is making me cry. Why did you have to write these words????”
Because I’ve been in that place. I know how it feels.
Everything made me cry.”
—-
Every.Single.Song makes me cry now
—————————————————
I live close to where I used to work, and she still does work there.
I now actively avoid anywhere she might go for a walk now at lunch. I could NOT deal with seeing her out walking ( and although I would be happy seeing her walking now with someone else ) I firmly believe I would likely just have a breakdown on the street.
My focus is on my Wife, and she knows it. She would be sympathetic to seeing me breakdown and cry. But I am trying to not show that to her.
Yes I need to find somewhere safe to cry.
I am sure this is the bottom… I hope it is.
And yes…. this WILL get old!! 🙂
I am NOT going to harm myself, I know that 🙂
To NTL:
MJ also mentioned Dr. L’s emergency deprogramming course.
I don’t know if MJ has used it, I have not, but it wouldn’t hurt to take a look at it. Maybe some of the folks here have used it and could give you some feedback?
There is a link somewhere, but I can’t find it now.
You’re going to have to adjust to a “new normal,” whatever that form it takes. Adjusting to change is hard.
Nearly impossible, in my case.
I have had the luxury of easing slowly away from LO over a period of many months. I tried forcing myself to stay away from him, and it made me worse.
I know that you don’t have this luxury, and for you, it has been more like a sudden, traumatic amputation.
TO NTL:
Here’s the original Norma Desmond. Things could always be worse.
https://external-preview.redd.it/5T8JrDPxpAv4hD4iry2RVkMcCv5il160k2w7vAVwZNg.gif?width=474&format=mp4&s=7ab509f7bb1cbba8e9725e9aa5986c9ee1414b05
Norma
Thanks, as always… I appreciate you
“MJ
PLEASE keep replying to me…. I appreciate your viewpoint and input SO much..”
NTL
I think its good you’re not trying to see her. I wondered though if you ever were to get called back to work, how that might affect you. Or has the work ship sailed? Asking because I always kinda wanted to run into LO again. I wonder how you would feel if you made all this effort to get out and then re-connected, starting that whole ball of wax over again, how you would relate and then how your Wife might feel. She’s a good Woman to stick by you but your LE would never do your marriage any favors.
I’m sorry you’re laid off, on top of your current circumstances. Even after LO left the building, she worked at our Satellite building next door, so every once in awhile she’d come back for lunch or I’d see her in the parking lot next door. Just to see her car in the parking lot gave me a quick dopamine fix. I knew she was in the area so that excited me. Everything about that Woman intrigued me. I went through hell coming out of my LE. I still don’t know if I’m right because of what happened but I know I don’t hurt the same like I did then. I can still tear up over her but she has a life, has someone and I think she’s happy. I’d love to still be a part of it but I’ve made peace with kinda knowing I won’t. I did a lot of silly things looking back. If you scroll through old posts, you can probably find the threads I posted in. I started posting here around 2023 I think.
Some things take a long time. I wish the best for you. So that you too will look back on the LE one day and wonder why you wasted so much time.
Yes, so many times I’ve gone through that—a breakup, or an LO who was ripped out of my life for one reason or another. Like the song by Naked Eyes, Always Something There to Remind Me, EVERYTHING would remind me of them. Just sobbing constantly. Eventually it would die down, but it could take such a long time I’d think it would never get better. And people saying things like “She wants to feel this way” or “Why be upset over a guy?”—just really didn’t help. Like they couldn’t understand at all what it was like.
Oh, n_t_l, hugs! Having followed your story I’m really sorry it’s taken a turn for the worse. For now, just find some good books to immerse yourself in. You can only take so much pain at once and you need to escape for a respite.
thanks for the kind words and thoughts Cloud
Yes, I find reading a good distraction!
It is a great comfort to be with others here, who understand the ADDICTION that is Limerence… and the horrible pain it causes.
It is for me a terrible double pain…. missing my friend and the actual withdrawal pains that so many of us here feel… I have sympathy and empathy for you all
Worst suffering of my life
I posted on a different thread and probably should have posted here, because this is going to be the more active thread.
I spent two hours with LO on Saturday and it was mostly positive.
But the downside is that I find I am ruminating about him way too much.
Another thing is that he blew up at me and accused me of being “sensationalistic.”
I am not even sure I understand what that means. However, he also said, “I know you’re supposed to be quirky.” Wait, what?
Yes, I am quirky, and I am proud of it.
If the very thing that I like about myself is something that LO finds annoying, then that may be a deal-breaker right there.
I am funny and do tend to say quirky things. My best girlfriend thinks I am hilarious. Of course she is good for my ego. But the thing that cracks up my friend, is apparently something that LO sees as a liability.
That is a problem, and yet another red flag.
@MJ.
I know you’ve found your midlife LE particularly challenging at times, so I wanted to reach out to you individually to wish you a Merry Christmas. 🙂
Also, I have an observation that I wanted to include in my comment inspired by Serial, but I couldn’t find the right spot for it. Given your own rarefied tastes in music and entertainment, I think the observation might also appeal to you… 😉
My favourite part of any drag performance is always when someone’s wig falls off – completely unscripted, of course! 😜
By the time the queen finds her hair and slaps it back on the top of her head, I’m weeping with laughter. 🤣🤣🤣
It shouldn’t be funny, but it is. 😇
Thank you Sammy. That is so very thoughtful. Merry Christmas to you and your Family.
Your story reminds me of when I was little, we had a neighbor that lived a few houses down from us. My Mother was over there visiting with her one day and it was quite windy out. As I pulled up on my bike to talk to them, the Neighbor Ladys wig blew right off and into the grass about 10 feet away. The look on her face was priceless and I remember giggling my a$$ off watching her jump out of the lawnchair to run after it. She was so embarrassed. I think I found it so hilarious because I never suspected once that was ever a wig on her head. So to see it blow off and her shocked look in trying to catch it was slapstick funny.
Believe it or not, that same Woman was a Realtor and is still working today. The current house I’m living in is one she found for me about 7 years ago. Every now and then, the wig story comes up. It always brings a smile.. 😂😂
I need help. My second post on this website (even though I had been lurking since my LE for the past three/four years). I had fully disclosed with (very very very) high hopes of reciprocation. But oh such disappointment. At myself and at LO.
What was I thinking?!!
Whilst LO will not be telling anyone and in fact was empathetic and kind (oh the worst kind to be!), but I can’t deal with the texts that still come in to check in on me. I have since silenced the notifications but couldn’t bear to delete the chat.
Help!
To Hopeful:
As awful as you feel, at least you KNOW where LO stands.
You have gotten rid of the uncertainty, which is huge.
Maybe try to look at this as a step forward?
Thank you Norma.
It’s true. But because of how LO responded, I’m still not registering it’s a hard no. Maybe just maybe there could be a tiny “yes” there somewhere. But even me thinking this way is driving me nuts – how could I think of it and wanting to throw all that I have away?
I would have preferred if LO had been utterly brutal.
I don’t know. I find the limerent brain such a mess.
But I do find myself returning to your comment – that I already know. That it is a certainty.
Which means moving on… sigh…
Hello Hopeful
I semi-disclosed to LO several months ago. Did NOT go well at all… I was in full-on distress and actually crying. What a spectacle I must have been!!
I understand the turning off social media… but wanting to keep the text messages. I found I had to clear all messages… re-reading them was “salt in the very large wound”
Keep posting here… we are kind and sympathetic listeners!
You are not alone.
Thank you new2limerence.
I feel you and I’m there right now. At moments, tears came unexpectedly. I did recall it was mentioned somewhere here that it is part of the grieving process.
I am a bit calmer now after a full blown hysterical sobbing session. I am so thankful that my SO is unaware (or maybe it’s all part of the lie I’m to feeding myself) but so kind to just sit with me.
The kindness and non-judgmental nature of this community is what kept me returning here.
Hopeful….
Your SO sounds kind. I believe my wife would sit and hold me as I sob… but I dont think I could do that to her. She knows I am Suffering. Just this afternoon she gently asked how I am… I know she sees my pain.
Am I correct… are we all here Suffering in individual Hells?
I am going to try to find or if need create a local Limerence support group.
LO texted me to check in a few days ago and I believe was trying to comfort me saying nothing has changed for LO. I had been able to resist responding as I really don’t want to feel sucky about myself. BUT it’s NYE here, just had a glass of wine, I’m recalling the days when LO & I go for drinks (which are frowned upon in our sphere) and I’m finding it really hard to resist the temptation to respond and text LO back – be it a comeback message or a groveling message.
It’s taking up all my mind.
Hi Hopeful,
I strongly advise to wait it out until 1st Jan before making contact (if at all). NY eve is one of these times when LE is super-charged and we feel things more on this date than maybe any other. I predict that you will wake up tomorrow feeling slightly different, less frantic, more serene.
I am a great one to talk, but I am pretty confident in this prediction, 5 years in to my own LE.
Happy 2026, may it pass more calmly for us all.
Bx
Hi Hopeful
Only you can decide what is the best course of action. It doesn’t need to be today or tomorrow, NYE / NYD is not urgent.
If you do, why would it need to be a comeback or groveling message ?
From what you said you are good terms.
Wishing someone a happy New year is just that.
Maybe you are more emotionally invested than your LO but I would say don’t over dramatise it.
The drama is often larger in our heads than reality.
But if any kind of contact will set you back and impact your recovery, then indeed it needs to be well considered.
Just enjoy NYE is what I say and what I am doing too ! 🍸 Tomorrow is another day and the day after that too.
and I see Bewitched also shared good/ similar advice which I hadn’t seen before my message!
Best wishes to one and all for a happy 2026
x
To Bewitched: Thank you so much. You are prophetic indeed. I did feel better this morning and so thankful that I didn’t send anything. I resisted even when he text me happy new year.
I couldn’t agree more that a calmer 2026 is what I need. (Well, at least my head thinks so but my heart yearns for excitement.)
To Imho:
Thanks for the advice… so true that there’s no urgency in replying.
I felt enraged by his text . I don’t know exactly why… is it because I want him to hurt as much as I’m hurting? That I want him to feel differently – a sliver of hope that I’m still harboring?
At the same time, I want to beg him to reconsider…
To all:
What are pitfalls that I should look out for now that I’ve fully disclosed? Is it possible to even have something that resembles friendship with LO?
Here’s to a better 2026 – where the fog in our limerent brains clears up.
For me, disclosing was an important step in ending my LE. Once I realized I was “one of many” in terms of how my xLO felt about me, the spell broke.
When I first started NC, I missed xLO at night, but after about 5 days, I felt great. I was still a little bit wistful on weekends, but I truly wasn’t interested (or anxious, or sad) anymore.
Keep up the NC. If you can, just delete new messages from your LO.
Happy new year.
Hi Hopeful, and welcome along.
“Is it possible to even have something that resembles friendship with LO?”
The general philosphy of this site says ‘no, not in your situation. Stick to NC’. I would go with that for you, for now at least.
I don’t have full facts but from what I glean, you were brave enough to put yourself out there and disclose, LO didn’t or couldn’t reciprocate, and now you’re trying to navigate what happens next.
From the bits you’ve said, LO is still texting to check in, send holiday greetings etc. To me this shows he is trying on some level to be ‘normal’ (whatever that is) and it shows he is committed enough to friendship. If his messages skirt the line into flirtation though, i’d revise my opinion.
For now, I think the ‘can we have something resembling friendship?’ question rests in large part with you. Your own answer can guide you. For as long as you look at his texts for any sign of a change of heart (and you need to be very honest with yourself about that), I’d say it is better to stay NC and give yourself space to recover. If and when you have got, or do get, past that, and if at that point you still him as someone you’d want as a friend, well then it is worth trying.
Full disclosure of my bias – though you will know this already if you have been following along with LwL for a while – I am a non-disclosed limerent for a very long term friend, and am ‘that person’ on LwL who still maintains hope that I can ride out a 2-3 year LE and stay friends with my LO after it. I have reduced the strength of my limerence quite a bit, but am not yet waving any white flags for victory. It isn’t an easy route if one does choose to try and keep a friendship.
LaR
“For as long as you look at his texts for any sign of a change of heart (and you need to be very honest with yourself about that), I’d say it is better to stay NC and give yourself space to recover.”
That is very wise. I think part of me is still fantasizing about an alternate universe (which was something LO mentioned during my disclosure that if there was an alternate universe, perhaps we could be together – he’s definitely an enabling LO.)
I just don’t know how I would react when I see him in-person. Nor how should I respond if he ever text me again to share his feelings or ask me for advice. But I guess one step at a time.
Happy New Year to Hopeful and everyone else,
As recently as yesterday, I was prepared to give you my thoughts on your dilemma, because I’ve faced broadly similar challenges.
That changed yesterday. After 12 months of no electronic contact, and 3 months of total NC in all forms, in which I worked remotely the whole time, I unexpectedly received an email from LO — just a brief message mentioning our lack of contact and asking how I’m doing. I have not yet responded. I should note that this is sort of a role reversal from 12 months ago, when I was the one who emailed first after 6 months of NC.
When I last posted here a few weeks ago, I had indicated that, inspite of being NC, and trying so hard to get over this LE, my obsessive thoughts had only intensified. The consensus response was to be a little less rigid with NC, to perhaps revert to a form of limited contact; maybe the too-rigid NC was causing explosive emotional reactions whenever we finally did meet. However, I have not immediately returned to work because my main collaborator (not the LO) went on an extended vacation, so there was no reason to go, but I had planned, even before receiving the email from LO, to make a trip to work towards the end of this month.
As things stand now, I do plan to respond to the email. The main question is how to keep this thing from getting out of control again. I oscillate back and forth as to whether it is possible to maintain a friendship. One thing I am certain of is that she genuinely likes me. It is sort of a mentor – mentee relationship, with me being the mentor. That means I have to act with the utmost in integrity — do what is best for her as well as for myself.
Thanks.
Sapien, I read your experience in another thread somewhere and I must say it was just so amazing that your LE could resolve so quickly! You had 3 points. I think I would have covered point 1 but I don’t think I could do the other 2 points: –
a) Telling my SO – I think he would be devastated and might complicate matters further;
b) Realising I am not special to LO – this is the tough part. I alternate between thinking I’m still a good friend he trusts very much and I’m just a nobody.
That said, I went to delete all the chat history I have with LO so that it no longer shows up on the platform I’m using. It decreased the temptation to text him and also the visibility of our chat history where I did find myself scrolling and ruminating over it.
The tough part is we are colleagues. We may not work closely but I am bound to bump into him at the work place. Right now, I do not know how it will trigger me. The last thing I want is a meltdown in office. Unfortunately, remote working is out of the question.
CatCyclist
That must be really tough. TBH I do not know how I would respond should LO text me for comfort/advice, which he had done so in the past.
Sorry that I do not know your situation much. But when you mentioned that she genuinely likes you was it on a mentor/friend basis? If so, then the email could be simply that. Do thread carefully (though seriously who am I to say since I’ve nuked it myself).
Though I must say being on NC now, I do find it doing me some good. Distance has given me some clarity and calmness. I do experience withdrawal symptoms but I’m trying to fill my days with more meaningful connections.
Sorry if I am of no help or comfort. But thank you for comments.
Hi Hopeful,
Well, I did respond to my LO, after giving it a day’s thought. I spent a fair (but not overwhelming) amount of effort in composing my email, talking about my tribulations over the past year, about the joy and sadness I had experienced (though not regarding LO, needless to say!) Regardless, I ruminated for a day or two as to whether I said too much. Or not. Perhaps it was a bit too heavy, trying to draw her out a bit, against my better judgment. Or maybe it wasn’t.
Two days later, she responded back. Her response was, as it had been in an email a year earlier, beautifully worded, showing that she gave it some thought, or perhaps just showed her innate talent at writing. But I felt she was holding back just a little bit, more so than my own message. Then I felt sad, actually experienced something resembling despair, at what I thought was her willingness to be less emotionally heavy than myself, to maybe give less of herself. Or perhaps, with its jaunty lightness, hers was just the right intensity for the level of friendship we are going to have going forward.
This has all been a bit confusing for me. In the last few months, following the sage teachings of Dr L and the consensus of people on this forum, I had come to the conculusion that a genuine friendship with LO is not possible, not even a mentor/mentee relationship, between a 63 yo retiring mentor (me), and a 22 yo mentee (the LO), graduating from intern to to full time employee. I ws knocked off this pat with a single, unexpected letter.
Today, as I feel a little less perturbed, I realize that like she really wants a friendship, and she meant it by reopening an epistolatory dialog that had been dead for a year. This friendship is a rare, beautiful thing, not too be taken lightly or discarded so casually. So I will try my best to provide one, while maintaining my own sanity and sense of balance. Trying too hard to shoo her away, both in my own mind and directly to her face, was causing me too much distress. This path, the limited friendship, will also cause distress, but maybe some happiness as well. I felt some of it today. Hopefully LO did as well. Hopefully we all will.
Dear Catcyclist,
“This has all been a bit confusing for me” – I can relate. My LO is older than me and I am middle-aged myself. But I can’t imagine how much more confusing all of this must be with a much younger LO. Especially in your field where this mentoring of younger ones is all part of the deal.
I do believe that she has more to gain out of an ongoing ‘dialog’ than you, Catcyclist, than vice-versa. Accordingly, I think that you should err on the side of your own sanity and composure when deciding how to respond to this reaching out from her, rather than worrying about her feelings too much. If I can explain: my workplace has a similar culture as yours and its inevitable than younger ones appear or a short while, then disappear again, as they find their feet. Its also important to let them go because there are new ones to encourage, who merit, deserve and require your time. The only younger ones (to use an euphemism) that I would keep in contact with would be those with whom I had a very close supervisory relationship with, or quasi-employer relationship with, over the course of *years*. Of course, there are always a few exceptions, often people who I needed to help with difficulties, perhaps. Or who I had a bit more of a laugh with or something – but never with someone who I find attractive. They get back in touch with me when they want something – that’s the way it works 🙂
So, I think its really important to realise that it’s really not going to hurt her if you pull back, its just normal letting go of an ephemeral connection that you had with her when she was a bit more junior than she is now. You helped her, she progressed, now she is more independent and less in need of your help. No doubt, she is grateful for help you provided in the past, and saw the New Year as a good time of reaching out to tell you that she still remembers your help and kindness with a lot of gratitude. Perhaps she can also foresee a vague possibility to ask for your help again in future, and so she is (sensibly) keeping the connection alive. Of course, being limerent for her, this is all torture for you. So I say that, while this is very confusing and you need to figure it out, you ought to protect yourself at all costs. You’ve got the New Years greetings and a catch-up email out of the way, now things can go back to LC again, right? And the less you think, fantasise and fret about her, the more you’ll begin to feel less confused about what she does.
My fingers are crossed for you – I really hope you begin to feel much better soon.
Bx
Hi,
I’m new here. I broke off contact with my LO today. I am bereft.
Thanks for Smitten, Dr Tom. I listened to it over Christmas. I didn’t want to but knew I had to.
I’m 45, married for nearly two decades, and some years into a turbulent mid-life passage. And then just when I thought things couldn’t get harder…I met LO and got body-slammed with this thing I now understand to be limerence.
He doesn’t know how I feel about him, nor does he reciprocate (I don’t think). I want to tell him, but I’m holding out and holding off.
Now I’m grieving hard.
The hardest loss is that empowering and healing stuff came through our connection, as well as the unhealthy side effects of addiction. I have to chalk that up, accept it and find a way to move forwards. To re-find the good elsewhere, in a more stable connection.
I hope the acute pain goes soon. I am fortunate to have a good therapist so have some support there, in what feels like a very lonely journey.
Thanks for reading.
To East Coker:
You said you just broke off contact with LO. Is that going to be something that arouses questions from those around you? What will LO do or say, if anything?
I am glad you have a good therapist for support.
Welcome East Coker. A lot of us here are in our 40s. It’s definitely a thing that can hit hard in mid life. I hope you have plenty of good quality chocolate to get you through this. We’re here with you. It’s going to be ok.
Hello East Coker
I am sorry for your pain… it is awful.
I am glad you have a good therapist. I tried 2 different ones… both just suggested I “get over the Crush ” and had NO understanding of Limerence or its Addiction. They were NOT helpful.
Did you get to have any kind of friendship with your LO?
To NTL:
I am surprised at both of your therapists. Telling someone to “get over a crush” is something a lay person would say. Well meaning, but not particularly helpful.
I had a girlfriend say that to me, and I am sure glad I was not paying her for this advice.
ND
I had an older friend once tell me to just get over it. To him, it sounded like a simple obsession that I should just be able to switch off like a light..
Not that simple..
I think in the Therapy world, the word limerence is relatively new and many Therapists tie it in with obsession or even stalking. All because they don’t understand it or haven’t studied it much. Unless you have a Therapist who fully understands and what it entails, you’re probably going to come up short. This is why forums like this and good Doctors like Dr. L are so useful here.
I tried talking to 2 different Therapists during intake sessions once and explaining limerence to them was almost like speaking in a foreign language. Neither of them seemed to understand it. Other than to simply tell me I was infatuated and needed to focus my energies elsewhere. Some really just don’t have a clue.
To MJ:
Even if Limerence were tied in with stalking, that’s not helpful advice to give someone.
If it were so easy, wouldn’t we just do that??
“Forget about it,” “snap out of it,” etc. are normal reactions but don’t help. I overlook it if it comes from a lay person, but I expect a little more from a therapist.
ND
I of course didn’t continue my discussions with either of those Therapists. I ended up talking with a Priest who also doesn’t understand it but the experience was a little more helpful and he seemed to have a tad more empathy.. I did the best I could for what was available to me at the time.
True you should expect better from Therapy but this forum, the discussions, camaraderie from others and all its information available has fared me better than I ever imagined.
MJ,
“…Other than to simply tell me I was infatuated and needed to focus my energies elsewhere.”
Even if they don’t understand the still-niche concept of limerence, which I kinda get… those two things together (recognising infatuation and saying to put energies elsewhere) don’t say much for them as therapists?! That’s like telling a depressed person to “pull yourself together”. If they could, they would. The therapist’s job is to help with how to do it, surely.
Ps – on your NG matter in other posts, I am going to agree with the Dame. You have made your pitch about the MM. Now just sit tight and see what happens next either way.
MJ
I just had a youtube notification when I got to work this morning and read a comment a content creator added to a, now, 3 month ongoing conversation I have been having with him (and other commentors) about letting go. While I never mentioned limerence, I did mention having a hard time letting go of her. I want the best for her. But I am torn wanting to be a part of her life. Who would have thought outside of LwL, some random content creator on a stoic youtube channel would be more help to me than someone that is trained for therapy. You just never know where you will find someone who will encourage you to find the courage to move on and be kind to yourself.
Meditation could be a way to calm down and get some inner peace. To get close to yourself and learn to love yourself is important uf you want to escape the limerence limbo. Taking care of oneself like the best parents would do..
Happy new year for everyone! This is a great blog! I am not alone.
Every time I watch the holiday I completely relate to Kate Winslet’s character. About 3 years in now. Older, wiser but still hurting. Hello old friends 👋
Okay. Time for a little comic relief…
I’ve been at LwL for goodness knows how long. I think I might have to leave soon. I’m afraid my cover has been blown. Someone from my past (not LO) has worked out who I am. I think he recognised my writing style from way back when. Didn’t know my literary voice was so admired and so distinctive. But anyhoo… 😇
I’m not afraid of this person knowing I might have been attracted at some point to a member of the same sex. I think I told him that myself. Nor am I afraid of him knowing the identity of my LO. I think he figured that one out a long time ago. I’m afraid of him knowing that … I’m really into music. Like, really, really INTO music, man. Yes, my passion for music is a dark secret I’ve been keeping on the down low for decades. I can’t bear the thought of word getting out to all my former friends and acquaintances. My name is going to be mud, people. Mud! 🤣🤣🤣
Less sensationally, Dad has a new bedtime routine. He falls asleep in front of the TV watching British detective shows. Now I’m obliged to watch British detective shows every evening with him. I’m not complaining – it’s a nice father-son bonding ritual. However, all rituals come with their awkward moments. For example, one night, my pet Burmese cat hopped up onto my lap for a cuddle.
Me: “Ooh, look at you! Look at you! You’re a little lion!”
Dad: **waking up** “No, he’s not. He’s a ratbag.”
Some character on the detective show puts their hand through a mirror and breaks said mirror. The moment is packed with dramatic tension.
Dad: **drifting back off to sleep** “Poor mirror.”
As part of my purposeful living practice, when I’m not watching British detective shows, I’ve been watching talent shows on YouTube – mostly singing contests. One contestant, a young black female with a cheeky sense of humour, sang a beautiful rendition of Elton John’s “Your Song”. Then this same contestant coaxed judge LeAnn Rimes onto the stage to sing “Your Song” with her as a duet.
LeAnn Rimes, being the very gracious lady that she is, was only too happy to oblige. When she got to the fourth line of the opening verse, she crooned the words soulfully, as one might expect of a successful country artist: “I don’t have much money…” At this point, the young female contestant stared at LeAnn in mock shock and disbelief and ad-libbed the fabulous line: “Really?” It was so funny. Even LeAnn’s fellow judge, rapper and singer Will.i.am, cracked up. 😁
Wave
Joanna Goodman
Tell the truth: no key appeared in your mouth,
no sound like mum, which wouldn’t help anyway.
Give me a word to get through the night.
Something spontaneous, fluid:
see the hand’s unintended imprint on the shore,
fireworks dissolving into the black sky–
Try now. Ripple. Yes.
Put the two of us in a boat on the gray river;
keep rowing in a circle while on the hazy banks
clumps of grass swarm and echo the rhythm of words
we had once spoken: after this, mistake me for someone else.
Sleep no more. Wave. Wave. That’s love enough.
New Year’s Eve
D. H. Lawrence
1885 –1930
There are only two things now,
The great black night scooped out
And this fire-glow.
This fire-glow, the core,
And we the two ripe pips
That are held in store.
Listen, the darkness rings
As it circulates round our fire.
Take off your things.
Your shoulders, your bruised throat!
Your breasts, your nakedness!
This fiery coat!
As the darkness flickers and dips,
As the fireflight falls and leaps
From your feet to your lips!
The New Year Ball is about to drop —
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/live-new-years-eve-times-square-ball-drop-2026/
💓 Happy New Year! 🎆 💓
*****
New York at 42
Nancy Mercado
Twenty-five years later New York
and I’m still in love with you
like the husband I’ve never had
who is patient and tends to me
and is beautiful
I see the friends I love in you New York
and smell our home cooked meals
taste our arroz con gandules
our sushi and chicken korma
our tortellini and crème caramels
And hear the many tongues
that describe what you are
New York City
Your pedestrian-ridden streets
of men on Washington Heights corners
whistling daily at women going by
of frenzied Herald Square shoppers
and Soho’s privileged class
And hear the many intricate songs
of birds flying in Central Park
New York City
the songs of those
migrating over your rivers
Grateful for all that you are
for years of lessons
learned In Harlem and Morningside
for the memories you gave
a naïve young girl
New York City
Of the massive beauty
of your stacked skyline.
🏙️ 🥰
I have been thinking a lot today about the past year, what I have learned and what I’d like to change for the next. Learning about limerence was definitely the most impactful thing that happened to me in the last twelve months – although my LE started over two years ago it was only after desperate research into what was wrong with me that I found this website and the many helpful articles and videos from Dr. L and the community of others who so openly and routinely share about their experience. I am very thankful to all of you for helping me to understand myself and feel better about my own addiction and the mistakes that I made. I feel really confident that I can avoid an LE in the future thanks to all of you. What I have also learned about myself is that at this point I will do best not to visit these rooms going forward — it has been my experience that I tend to ruminate more after a visit, and thoughts of the LO return with greater frequency. I have also learned that I need to be patient with myself — it’s going to take a while before I’m through this experience completely but I have noticed improvement over time and I have to trust that eventually I will no longer think of the LO or that if I do that it won’t be so painful. Best of luck to all of you including the new ones. You are a very supportive group of people and I’m glad to have had you in my life over the last nine months.
Just wanted to acknowledge your lovely message to the LwL community.
I am glad you feel stronger to be able to move on. I identify with that need to do so, and not get stuck.
Very best wishes to you for a freer 2026 and beyond
X
Can your Sabrina Carptener give you heart palpitations like Kimberly from Little Big Town is doing to me right now?
https://youtu.be/JYZMT8otKdI?si=ixJzFFrWnx0UFTHP
She can. Especially when she was out here for Lollapalooza back in the summer. LO was at this concert..
Hold on to the people you love.. 😂
https://youtu.be/SBQGtwCfORA?si=A9B4_Ouw2MIKF7ov
She is a hell of a performer, I’ll give her that.
Our New Years didn’t really go smooth. Momma passed out in the hallway when she asked me to help her out of the bathroom. Just face planted on the floor with no warning. After calling my sister in law I had to call 911. Between that call and the time the paramedics arrived she was at least responsive and talking to our son and I. I couldn’t go to the hospital since I’d been drinking. I told her I get to her first thing in the morning. We texted together with her family in a group text. Somehow she came home. Maybe took a cab? She’s still asleep. But I’m glad she’s home. I still have to read the release papers to see what the doctors think it was since she’s almost 7 years sober it wasn’t that. Makes you appreciate the people that sometimes you might take for granted.
Hi Adam,
oh no, Sorry to hear that. I hope she’s ok now. Definitely read the release papers please. I hold my thumbs.
They weren’t able to come to a conclusive reason why she passed out so quickly. But the post diagnosis was a closed head injury. The whole left side of her face from forehead to cheek is badly bruised. So I have to look after her if she needs to move or walk. She is cognizant but it could possibly happen again. They took blood so they know she wasn’t drunk. The doctor said the mostly likely thing was low blood sugar. Because he hadn’t eaten all day and I was making dinner at the time. Coupled with the large amounts of caffeine she consumes he said that’s probably what it was. She’s resting now and I told her to yell for me or text me when she needs to get out of bed. Thankfully I don’t work today. But I may have to call into work tomorrow so I can look after her. This is only the second time in my life I’ve called 911. But they got here fast and the paramedics were super efficient and friendly. Making a bad experience not so stressful. They even gave her a ride home from the hospital last night.
Wow, very scary incident. If she experiences anything like vision or speech changes or similar, immediately call 911 again.
I guess they checked everything thoroughly, blood results etc.
I wish Momma a speedy recovery! Thanks for updating!
Oh wow, how scary! I hope she feels better soon!
Adam, what a worry! Wishing Momma a speedy recovery and sending good wishes to all your family.
To Adam:
Oh, my goodness, how scary for both of you.
I am glad it was no worse.
Please give her a hug from me.
I hope everything is better today Brother. Thinking of you, Momma and Family.
Hope this is not the start of a bad year and things only go up from here..
Thank you all for thought and well wishes for Momma. She told me last night that she would be okay for me to go to work. She said she would have our son help her get around if she needed it.
I teased her (to try and lighten the mood) before that paramedics got there that the only two times I’ve called 911, in my life, it’s been because she passed out. The first time was way back when our first one was only 1-2 years old, I think. Maybe younger. She at least laughed.
Thank you again. I will pass on the well wishes to her.
Adam,
Well-wishes to Momma from me too. It must have been very scary to go through for you all. Make sure you two do push for answers or further tests from the doctors so you know why it happened and what can be done in future.
Today was the first day of a new year. The owner of the cafe I frequent wanted to shake my hand. I almost went into anaphylactic shock. “Oh my gosh! A heterosexual man is expressing something akin to friendship toward me! Didn’t he get the memo? I’m an outcast, a pariah, a social leper. I’ve been dodging human contact most of my life. People aren’t supposed to want to touch me…”
Actually, that isn’t quite true. Disregard that part of the story. The real reason I was confused when the owner extended his hand for me to shake is he was wearing a pretty blue band-aid on one of his fingers, and, like, like, I’d never seen such a pretty shade of blue before! I mean, the band-aid had to be designer. (Chanel? Christian Dior? Donatella Versace Summer Collection?) 🤣
Dr. L, I would like to lodge an informal complaint with you about your dubious vocabulary. The opening lines to this blog feature the word “peeps”. Are you trying to sound youthful by resorting to Millennial slang, or something? If so, I feel obliged to point out that the slang word you use is actually spelt with a “z” and not with an “s”. The only thing worse than middle-aged peepz not knowing slang is middle-aged peepz knowing slang but spelling it conventionally. Not that I can talk. Just yesterday, I capitalised will.i.am’s name. I don’t think any true lover of rap is ever going to forgive me – never mind the fine gentleman himself! 🙂
For people prone to limerence who also love language, I think Klymaxx’s 1984 hit song “Meeting in the Ladies’ Room” contains some of the funniest slang I’ve ever heard. In particular, I love “much, much unhappy about that” and “BM” aka Basic Woman. Plus, the lyrics have aged surprisingly well. Here’s a little taste:
I had to leave my condo to come to this
Well, I’m back but this time I’m with my man
And these women are puttin’ their hands all over his
Yamamoto Kanzai sweater that I bought
And I’m much, much unhappy about that
I’d hate to come down to their level and become a BW
A basic woman but if they don’t stop it’s gonna get scandalous
I also think Taylor Swift’s songwriting may be showing marked signs of improvement. Here’s the truly unforgettable opening to “Opalite”:
I had a bad habit
Of missing lovers past
My brother used to call it
“Eating out of the trash”
“A heterosexual man is expressing something akin to friendship toward me! Didn’t he get the memo?”
Sammy that made me laugh. It made me remember when an older homosexual man asked me out for drinks when I was waiting for a job interview. I was the most flattered I’ve ever been in life. I teased my wife for a long time that even the men are after me lol
I told him that, I was flattered, but also married so I had to decline. I tried to be really understanding since I know that is a big leap for him to approach another man and gambling on his reaction. He was probably around 50 and I was in my early 30’s at the time. I have no idea why heterosexual men would take offense at a homosexual man flirting/hitting on them.
In my 20s, (Mid-90s-before cell phones) I knew an older guy in his late 40s who gained a crush on me. I found him rather repulsive and really in no way attractive. He said and did a lot of weird things around me often. Like want to constantly take me out to dinner and a movie. Which I never did. He over-gifted me at Christmas time, giving me things I had little or no use for. He also wrote me letters and sent them in the mail to me about 3-4 times a week. They were always very formal. Even going so far as to seal them with wax seals. Like they did ages ago in history. I mean, this was all next level weird $#!+..
The strangest thing he ever did was ask me to pose for pictures while flexing my muscles. Looking back, the writing was so on the wall. I should have figured it out when a Playgirl subscription started landing in my mailbox. Yet he denied signing me up for it. It eventually got so bad between us, that he actually began stalking me.
I contacted Playgirl about the subscription and told them I immediately wanted it canceled but they said they would do so only after the subscription expired. Because the entire year of it had been paid for already. I insisted they cancel it anyway because I lived with my gf at the time and didn’t need any more drama with magazines like that coming to the house. I called and wrote them letters to please prove to me who signed me up for the subscription. To which they eventually sent me a photocopy of a subscription fill-out, this guy sent them. It was in his handwriting. Upon confrontation he denied it again but thats where I drew the line.
I immediately cut him off and by then he got the hint.
There’s a line between flattery and being offended. I’d rather he just had told me he was gay, rather than dance around the fact, deny it and then go out of his way to make it obvious otherwise. Guess I was too nice..
Hey everyone, Happy New Year! Here’s a little update on my life and limerence for anyone who is interested in reading…
Overall things are pretty much ok and stable compared to a year ago. Work is harder for sure – longer hours, more stress during the work day, and a sense of foreboding for the future given our nation’s politics (this is not a great time for working in underserved medicine in the US) – but I’m also really enjoying it for the most part and feel good about what I’m doing every day. My kids are all doing really well; my eldest started high school this year and is really thriving, he’s passionate about his activities and has a great friend group and seems genuinely happy and secure with himself (and so far hasn’t had any romantic adventures -says he doesn’t want a girlfriend yet because it’s too much drama). The two younger kiddos are a handful, but they’re also a blast to play with and are also just little sweethearts. We got a new puppy a few months ago who is a super fun additional to the household and I adore her. My mom’s dementia is progressing, but on the other hand my sister’s mental and physical health is actually in a better place than it’s been in awhile.
SO is doing pretty well. Our youngest started kindergarten this year so for the first time in years she doesn’t have any kids at home during they day and is figuring out what she wants to do next. For now she’s been pretty content to stay home and tackle some overdue projects around the house and yard and have some time to herself, while starting to think about some ideas for going back to work and what she might want to to. Our relationship is great – we’re getting along really well, love spending time together, feel really close emotionally, have a lot of cuddles and affection every day. I’m really deeply in love with her and am so grateful that I didn’t blow up our marriage 2-3 years ago when I was on the brink. We feel like best friends and lovers and partners and I’m glad every day that we’re together and always want to be with her.
LO is doing pretty well too. We’re still working together, although that may change in a few months. Her eldest child is most of the way through college and her middle daughter just started school at a good university and is studying to be a doctor. LO is almost finished with school herself – she just has one semester left and then some big exams and then she’s finished! I honestly can’t tell how she’s feeling about being that close – I think there’s a mix of relief that she’ll be done with this exhausting time of working full time, going to school full time and taking care of her family, excitement at starting a new career, and also trepidation about the amount of change that’ll take place in her life. She’s doesn’t love her current job and it’s pretty boring, but it’s also really familiar and comfortable to her and change causes her a lot of anxiety, so I expect that she’ll be going through a lot of anxiety in the coming months, especially since graduation almost certainly means that she’ll need to leave our workplace and take a job elsewhere (that thought causes me a lot of anxiety as well – part of me thinks it could be the best thing that could happen, and part of me dreads it so badly).
She and I have continued to have an up and down, push-pull relationship, over three years now. We’ll have a month or two where we’re pretty close and talking all the time and sharing a lot of affection, and then her walls go up and we don’t talk for awhile and then we reconnect and are back to being close again. Most recently we went through our longest apart spell ever, not really talking to each other for 3 months. It followed the same pattern it always has – we started talking again after the prior shutdown, we planned to take it slow but almost immediately were back to talking all the time and being really close, then the affection started to escalate, I said the word “love” a few times (which has always freaked her out – I’m fairly sure that no one besides her kids has ever said it to her before), she sent me a really sweet and romantic song that she said made her think about me (sending me love songs has been the closest she’s ever come to actually saying that she loves me), then I sent her an equally sweet and romantic song back, we were seeing each other more and hugging each other a lot, I gave her some sweet and thoughtful little gifts for her birthday… and then she suddenly stopped responding to my texts, stopped calling, stopped dropping by to chat; then after a couple weeks I asked her what was up and she sent me a really cold text about how she thought I understood that we’re just friends and it’s fine if we don’t talk sometimes, and I asked her what happened to all the warmth and affection she’d been showing me and she told me it was a big mistake and it wouldn’t happen again.
We basically didn’t talk for 3 months after that, except that we kept collaborating on her homework – we’ve done that for 2.5 years straight now, even if we aren’t speaking to each other she sends me the links to her assignments on google docs and I assist with research and editing and stuff like that. For me it’s been a way to remain a steady and supportive presence in her life even when she’s too overwhelmed with emotions to have any sort of other interactions with me, and to demonstrate to her that she matters to me regardless of whatever ups and downs we’re having – given her life history that’s always felt important to me. Anyway, for the first few weeks after this shut-down, she did everything possible to avoid running into me at work and when our paths did cross, she couldn’t even look at me, would just look down at the ground and look miserable and a couple times was crying a little… then after a few weeks she started coming around my desk to drop off paperwork instead of using intra-office mail but still wouldn’t talk to me, then a couple weeks later she started to make a little brief small talk when she dropped off papers, then eventually she started actually looking me in the eye when she’d make small talk, and then last week she actually came and sat down next to me for a few minutes and told me a couple little recent stories about her personal life and asked about my life a bit.
All along I’d been trying to get her to talk with me, I’d text her like once a week or every other week saying I missed her and would love to chat if she felt ready, but she never responded. Yesterday I texted her again and she called me and we talked for about 15 minutes; she made it clear at the start that she didn’t want to spend time rehashing the past few months or talking about our relationship, but she did tell me that it was all about anxiety, that the more the affection grew between us the more anxious she got and finally it got to be so much that she just couldn’t be around me or say a word to me anymore, and that she felt really bad ignoring me all that time and hated herself for making me feel bad, but that it wasn’t a choice, she literally couldn’t talk to me or even look at me. And on the phone we caught up a bit on our lives and our families and stuff and then later that day I brought her some paperwork and we talked about some work stuff and got to spend a few minutes sitting together and making eye contact and smiling – so it feels like repair is underway again.
This is the pattern we’ve had for years, and it always baffled me and really messed with my head because the switch would happen so abruptly and so completely, and then after some time she’d reappear and want to carry on like nothing had ever happened. Recently I’ve been doing a lot of reading about fearful avoidant attachment and anxious-avoidant relationship cycles, and I’ve learned that our pattern is actually really common, that there are a ton of articles online about the exact phenomenon that we’ve been living out, that the basic idea is that someone with fearful avoidant attachment learned at an early age that closeness = danger (ie growing up with abusive parents, like LO did), and so they end up craving closeness but also being terrified of it, so they end up in these push-pull relationships where at some point when the closeness and connection becomes too much, and then it’s like a circuit breaker trips and the whole affection and attachment system just shuts down completely, and they deactivate emotionally – maybe go numb, or maybe are filled with panic feelings where it feels like the only way to survive is to create distance and escape. Then when space is restored and the panic starts to subside, they start missing the other person and craving closeness again, and start moving back towards relationship. From what I’ve read (and observed with LO) it’s not a choice and it’s not even a conscious thing to a large extent, its more like a deeply ingrained survival mechanism.
Understanding that helped me a lot during this most recent deactivation – it still hurt and I still missed her a lot, but it was easier not to take it as personally, and to understand that chasing her would just make things worse, and to just be patient and steady and positive and wait for her anxiety level to go down. The challenge now will be to stay calm and go slow and keep the intensity level dialed down. She told me yesterday that she needs me to not say things that are overly affectionate or to do anything that makes her feelings too strong, because she hates pulling away like that but she also just can’t control it when it happens, so she wants to try to keep things as light and safe feeling as possible so that we can have consistency instead of the extreme highs and lows. I’m going to do my best to just stay steady, to be warm and friendly but not overly affectionate or romantic, and then maybe we can just keep things at a 5 between us for awhile this time instead of oscillating between a 10 and 0 with not much in between.
I don’t know if that’s actually possible – so far we’ve never managed to do it, although I think we’ve both learned more about our patterns and triggers now so maybe we can manage a little better. Perhaps that’s how we eventually settle into a somewhat normal friendship, by learning over and over again that intense emotions always lead to separation and pain, so the only way to avoid that is to keep things lukewarm and controlled. We’ll see.
Hello Lost In Space,
Interesting situation. I don’t understand why you find her behaviour confusing, knowing what you do from this site, though?
LIS (via Cloud):
“I don’t understand why you find her behaviour confusing, knowing what you do from this site, though?”
I agree. Also, just seeing the same pattern over and over again in her behavior, I’m not sure why it’s confusing by this point. At least from the angle where you know it will happen again.
I’m also not convinced it’s involuntary on her part. Just for the sheer fact it’s happened so many times, over and over. Maybe once or twice, but wouldn’t she then start to question what she was doing ? I’m assuming you’ve discussed it with her, so she’s aware of it ?
Also, as a larger question to ask yourself: Isn’t this back and forth … I don’t know … driving you crazy? Angering you? Making you feel manipulated? (Insert whatever emotion here)
Hi Lost in Space,
good to hear from you! A compelling storyteller as always:)! Glad to hear everyone is well and the situation hasn’t exploded at some point.
„ Perhaps that’s how we eventually settle into a somewhat normal friendship, by learning over and over again that intense emotions always lead to separation and pain, so the only way to avoid that is to keep things lukewarm and controlled. We’ll see.“
It sounds to my ears a little bit as if you don’t really want that.. maybe I’m just over-interpreting. „Lukewarm and controlled“ sounds a tad negative, is all.
But it sounds as if the whole situation will change anyway soon when she finished school. If I had to advise (and I’m very glad I don’t ), maybe I’d say, try to keep the lid on it until then- very important to follow her plea for not being too affectionate or tempting, be there for her in upcoming exciting exam time and maybe be ready to let go after that?
But any way, I wish you and your family and her a happy new year and it‘ll all happen how it‘ll happen, I guess!
Always good to hear from you, LIS! Glad things are going well at home. I wonder if LO’s issues with attachment are also related to Borderline PD? It seems to make sense, considering both her history and her feelings for someone who is not available. Add it to her busy schedule and it’s a toxic stew for the emotions. 😛
Serial, just no! From LIS’s description, his LO is behaving perfectly normally given a difficult situation and it’s LIS’s behaviour that is unreasonable. He keeps on exhibiting completely inappropriate behaviour such as using the word “love” and sending romantic songs, she withdraws from the friendship for a while, then comes back and explains to him that she wants him to stop being overly affectionate, then he does it again and she has to withdraw again.
Lost_in_Space, your LO is right and you ought to make the effort to understand and respect what she says.
Cloud,
having followed LiS‘ story for a while, I wouldn’t say there‘s a need to take sides here or denominate her as the victim. They are both somehow stuck in this pattern. He‘s the more active one, it’s true, but I don’t know if it’s better to receive passively and refuse to acknowledge what you are basically doing (having an emotional affair) while keep doing it, and from time to time just shunning him as if he‘s the only responsible party (while she keeps taking his help for school).
I do understand her and her behavior very well, I don’t want to blame her, I really feel very much for her and have felt for her in the past.
I just want to point out that both are adults and both are mired in that mess from own volition. It’s not that he keeps badgering her and she refuses politely, like it sounds a bit in your post.
Mila, fair enough. I was just going on the one post above, rather than the bigger picture which you have gleaned from a number of posts over a period of time. One thing I’ve found helpful in Dr L’s approach to limerence, and from this site, is that we are treated non-judgmentally as it’s a more effective way to understand and deal with the problem. I need to practise this on others too!
Hi Cloud,
of course I haven’t got the full overview either and cannot judge, as we‘ll always get only one side of the story, and are maybe biased through own experiences. I can absolutely see why you deduced what you deduced from LiS‘ one post. But this story is hard to judge. I gave up trying to judge it long ago and just hold my thumbs for everyone involved that it‘ll work out fine.
Oh, I didn’t mean to cast aspersions or anything like that. Just trying to help LIS understand better how this could be affecting his LO. Of course her reaction is normal—It’s just that she also has, if I recall correctly, been diagnosed with other things that would make things even harder for her.
LIS, your writeup is timely because I have also done a fairly deep dive into attachment styles lately. I actually have been using ChatGPT to understand the relational dynamic between me and LO. My LO is dismissive-avoidant where as I am anxious-preoccupied. It’s a very bad combo but I have come to learn that my grey rock strategy, that I have been using for over a year now to fairly good success, is the best strategy to quiet my limerence and for my LO to feel more at ease. I find attachment theory all very fascinating.
Hoping you find more even emotional dynamics between you and LO in this new year. Sounds like a good goal.
Speedwagon,
” I find attachment theory all very fascinating.”
I do, too, but can it apply if one or both of you is not available? Or apply as much?
I think it manifests in all kinds of personal situations. In potential romantic situations I think it actually could be heightened by barriers when two people are still forced to coexist. My LOs dismissive-avoidant traits really surfaced after my disclosure while my anxious-preoccupied traits were more pronounced before I disclosed. But, this is all very new to me so not sure about any of it really.
I can only speak for myself … and of course I’m understanding all of this in hindsight. This was many years ago when I knew nothing about attachment style. I was dating someone decades ago. Things were casual but I really liked him (was limerent). I went after him. It was obvious he was dating other people. I later came to find out there was one other specific woman he was also dating. Things with her ended and then he got serious with me. And that’s when our attachment styles became obvious. He was anxious, but that didn’t become obvious until all his attention was on me. Before he’d been occupied with both of us, and so my avoidance wasn’t triggered.
And not to be harsh, but sometimes someone is just not interested. Doesn’t mean they’re an avoidant. They certainly could be but it’s not always the case.
“And not to be harsh, but sometimes someone is just not interested. Doesn’t mean they’re an avoidant. They certainly could be but it’s not always the case.”
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not equating romantic rejection with avoidant attachment. Truth is my LO was never “in to me”. But, we did have a closer relationship for about a year before I disclosed and we still have a boss/employee relationship that binds us together and if I look at how she related and interacted with me both before disclosure, when we were close, and after, and how she interacts with me now, and even when I look at her life outside of her relationship with me, everything seems to fit a dismissive-avoidant narrative. Just my non-professional AI assisted assessment.
Speedwagon,
“But, we did have a closer relationship for about a year before I disclosed and we still have a boss/employee relationship that binds us together and if I look at how she related and interacted with me both before disclosure, when we were close, and after, and how she interacts with me now, and even when I look at her life outside of her relationship with me, everything seems to fit a dismissive-avoidant narrative. ”
It sounds like she backed off after disclosure ?
Obviously, I can’t speak for your LO, but my avoidant tendencies pop up in romantic relationships, not in friendships.
Happy new year everyone.
Another dream. This time about a different man, not LO. Similarly innocent: just walking along, aware of some tension, hands brushing against each other but not actually holding hands. Like some romantic novel.
It’s progress, but I’d still rather dream about my actual real husband!
Happy new year everyone!
I‘d say it’s the first completely limerence-free beginning of a year for me. It’s interesting because I still feel something inside of me searching for limerence, either subconsciously checking people if they are potential LOs or , since I seem to have built in a functioning stop-sign in the “new LO” area, the mind starts to go back to XLO, which is also stopped quite soon because the futility of that has really sunk in. So no danger of limerence, but my system hasn’t adjusted fully to a life without it.
I googled “missing limerence” (there are some posts on Reddit), although I cannot really say I miss it. I don’t want to go back to that futile mind occupation.
But it’s been a part of my inner life for quite a long time, and something inside me is still looking for it or doesn’t know where else to latch on to.
Anyone with a similar experience?
I wish you all a fulfilled, happy and healthy 2026, including Dr Tom L and thank you for everything!
Happy new year Mila and to all readers!
Limerence introduces colour, intrigue, risk, loads of different things into life – it can break monotony or act as an escape, release bits of us that had lain dormant. It took my energy and creativity off the charts at first. So I think it is natural that you will miss it on some level.
Now, on another level, we learn that the LE pleasure isn’t worth the pain, the highs aren’t worth the lows, etc. We come to know that, and mostly we come to accept the new ‘less rollercoastery’ reality. But that still doesn’t mean we won’t miss the highs it gave us, and go ‘looking around’ for them in other ways. It is good to hear that you can now keep a lid on that and shut that ‘limerence searchlight’ part down pretty quickly.
Hope 2026 brings you good – but lim-free – things 🥂
“Limerence introduces colour, intrigue, risk, loads of different things into life – it can break monotony or act as an escape, release bits of us that had lain dormant. It took my energy and creativity off the charts at first. So I think it is natural that you will miss it on some level.
Now, on another level, we learn that the LE pleasure isn’t worth the pain,”
Agree with everything except the risks. I don’t see a lot of risks in the posts.
Marcia,
Risk may not exactly be the right word.
But for example – I told you before that a while into the LE, I decided to start being honest with SO about whenever I spent time with LO. That’s something I have stuck to since. But before that point, I’d often hang out with LO in public places after work while not admitting it at home. I’m not proud of it look, but that’s the sort of risk I mean – anyone could have seen us and questioned it, or reported it back. That was the sort of risk level I let myself get to for a while.
Are you a Stranger Things fan?
I didn’t watch the last few seasons (kind of lost interest) but did watch a few YouTube videos of reviews of the last episode of the series. And everyone said the same thing: No stakes. No consequences. They’re literally fighting for the end of the world and only one characters dies, and it’s a character no one cares about.
I certainly understand the internal conflict limerence causes. But that’s usually what it is. All this angst about what to do (and usually not all that much is happening)… when the choice is usually to do nothing. And I’m not saying anyone SHOULD do anything …. but let’s be real and say that’s what most people do.
Marcia,
“Are you a Stranger Things fan?”
Funny you should ask. I’m very late to that party, but SO and I have just decided to binge the lot, and made a healthy start over the holidays. We’ll see if we persist all the way.
In my own mind, I did raise the stakes a lot when I started to hang out one on one with LO, and started to make stories up to cover my tracks. I’d spent about a year before that refusing that sort of invitation from her because it played on my conscience too much.
When I caved into it, I felt it was a step change, and a risk. But I do appreciate that in the end, it changed nothing material.
LO,
“In my own mind, I did raise the stakes a lot when I started to hang out one on one with LO, and started to make stories up to cover my tracks. I’d spent about a year before that refusing that sort of invitation from her because it played on my conscience too much.”
I thought you two were already friends and had been for years and were already hanging out. I don’t understand what was different. And you weren’t telling your SO about the hang outs but then you did ?
And if your SO had asked why you were hanging out more, would you have been honest? That’s a consequence. That’s a risk.
LaR,
Ha! I addressed my post to you as “LO.” Just to be clear, you are not my LO. 🙂
And before MJ jams himself in here, he is not my LO, either. 🙂
Marcia,
I’ll take the rejection and walk away 😂😂. I WON’T make you say it twice 🙂
But let your dude MJ have that coffee with you, won’t you? We are spinning in hamster wheels there.
—
There were three phases to what I was discussing:
1. We were friends for ages but all the hanging out during this bit was during work hours
2. We began to hang out more after work etc. I often told cover stories to SO, eg that other people were also there or that I’d worked late.
3. I continued to hang out with LO, but was always truthful with SO about when and where, from then on.
Phase 2 was the risk and consequence bit, if I was found out (eg if someone who knew SO saw me with LO). I got lucky and I wasn’t. The move from 2 to 3 was because I started to feel too guilty and couldn’t keep on like it – nobody forced it. After this, it was not risky any more because I was doing nothing to escalate it.
“if your SO had asked why you were hanging out more, would you have been honest?”
Not (clearly) completely honest – not about limerence, ‘feelings’ etc. SO did ask me some questions about it but I couched my answers in me being a friend to LO at a time she needed one. And that wasn’t in itself a lie (as SO knew), but of course wasn’t all of the truth either.
Most hanging out these days is at work or within a bigger group. We very occasionally still hang out one on one but I avoid doing it a lot. When I do, I tell SO it’s happening. She does not pressure me not to do it if I keep it at this level.
LaR,
” I WON’T make you say it twice 🙂”
Please don’t. It makes every cell in my body clench up. I can not tell you how uncomfortable it is to have to say no.
“But let your dude MJ have that coffee with you, won’t you? We are spinning in hamster wheels there.”
I’m not spinning my wheels. He is. I’ve never said yes. You’d think he’d get the hint. You’d THINK …. 🙂
“And that wasn’t in itself a lie (as SO knew), but of course wasn’t all of the truth either.”
It’s a lie by omission.
“Phase 2 was the risk and consequence bit, if I was found out (eg if someone who knew SO saw me with LO). I got lucky and I wasn’t.”
I never saw this kind of thing as much of an argument. As someone who has dabbled in a few things with people I shouldn’t have, I have never gotten caught.
Marcia,
“I can not tell you how uncomfortable it is to have to say no.”
It’s ok, I’m not going to beg. I know where I’m not wanted 🙂
“It’s a lie by omission.”
Point accepted.
“I never saw this kind of thing as much of an argument … I have never gotten caught.”
Keep in mind I live in quite a small town and my SO is obsessive about truth (I am not in any way knocking that, by the way. I knew I was doing morally wrong stuff then).
“I’ve never said yes. You’d think he’d get the hint.”
I thought you did, on condition that he cleaned Snow’s powder room first?
Hi LaR and Marcia,
yes, it’s all true and I knew that before.
I‘m not sure if it’s really the case that I managed to be limerence-free and now everything seems more subdued and un-alive.
It could also be the other way round- that I changed (got older, perimenopausal hormones etc) , that I got more subdued and not capable of those high-soaring emotions anymore, and that’s why I manage to be limerence-free.
Like I got the truth now about life and limerence, and the truth is somewhat grey.
I have to add that I haven’t had my first coffee this morning.
But really, I seem to need caffeine more just to get my mood up a bit etc.
We watched the whole Stranger Things series, and while I really enjoyed the first two seasons (great 80‘s and Stephen King reminiscences, lovely cast of kids), season 3 and 4 had their flaws but also their good moments- and season 5 completely sucks, in my opinion. The makers managed to destroy the lovely dynamics of the cast, there‘s dubious morals („we are the good ones, so let’s revenge-kill left and right without a care“) and a lot of strange pissed-off talk between so-called friends, and cringey „emotional“ conversations at a very bad timing. Action scenes in the finale are good, that’s all.
Mila,
“It could also be the other way round- that I changed (got older, perimenopausal hormones etc) , that I got more subdued and not capable of those high-soaring emotions anymore”
I’m on the other side of all that, and I still became limerent. 🙂
“We watched the whole Stranger Things series, and while I really enjoyed the first two seasons (great 80‘s and Stephen King reminiscences, lovely cast of kids), season 3 and 4 had their flaws but also their good moments- and season 5 completely sucks, in my opinion. ”
Whenever they made Billy a creature is when I stopped watching. Nope, need him to be the cute guy. 🙂 But I was curious how the show ended and I watched some YouTube recap videos about the finale. Jeremy Jahns, who keeps referring to Mrs. Weaver as “fine Mama Weaver” and “the power of MILF.” I thus subscribed to his channel. She’s my age. 🙂
” and cringey „emotional“ conversations at a very bad timing. Action scenes in the finale are good, that’s all.”
That was a criticism of the last season as well. They’re in the middle of trying to save the world … but, wait, let’s pause all of that … and talk about our relationship. 🙂
„I’m on the other side of all that, and I still became limerent. 🙂“
Don’t say that, I thought I might be through with it! Maybe it‘ll start again on the other side? Oh no.
„ who keeps referring to Mrs. Weaver as “fine Mama Weaver” and “the power of MILF.” I thus subscribed to his channel. She’s my age.“
I suppose you mean Mrs Wheeler? She‘s cool, I like her, and really quite hot, much hotter than Nancy for example, who annoyed me a lot.
„ That was a criticism of the last season as well. They’re in the middle of trying to save the world … but, wait, let’s pause all of that … and talk about our relationship“
It’s really stupid. The pace gets going, and suddenly they start inane and very predictable cliché talks that go on for ages. Of course all the evil monsters and the end of the world are waiting patiently until they finished their gibberish, but until then everything has lost the drive completely.
SO sometimes simply had to look away out of cringiness.
“And before MJ jams himself in here, he is not my LO, either. 🙂”
Of course I’m not. I’m too old. She reminds me all the time. She likes them young and impressionable.
On top of that, I’m not married and totally available. So of course thats a reason I can’t be her LO.. 😆
LaR,
“Keep in mind I live in quite a small town ”
So did I when I met my last big LO. Some of the dabbling happened outside of him. And one of them … his dad worked for the company, too. I think there might have been a brother in there, too. I don’t remember exactly. Cousin or sibling. Uncle ?
“and my SO is obsessive about truth ”
More reason that you should have told her. 🙂
“I thought you did, on condition that he cleaned Snow’s powder room first?”
I’m working within the rules your side created. That was a moment … and now the moment is gone. And I’m going to compartmentalize it and move on. Carpe diem! 🙂
“I’m not spinning my wheels. He is. I’ve never said yes. You’d think he’d get the hint. You’d THINK …. 🙂”
I think this is due to a limerent mindset and being content with a below average outlook. Like spinning the wheels and going nowhere fast. I give my absolute best, have nothing but good intent and always land flat on my face.
Not a pity party, poor MJ, its just fact. I subsist on breadcrumbs.
Even those have been hard to come by lately..
Sir MJ,
Ignore her ladyship’s grumping. She is clearly playing hard to get 🧐
Trucker
“Ignore her ladyship’s grumping. She is clearly playing hard to get 🧐”
I’m not. If I want to be gotten, I’m actually pretty easy. 🙂 (Sorry, couldn’t help myself, but there’s some truth to it. )
“I’m not. If I want to be gotten, I’m actually pretty easy. 🙂 (Sorry, couldn’t help myself, but there’s some truth to it. )”
She’s not entirely wrong tbh.. The attraction is either there or it isn’t..
MJ,
“She’s not entirely wrong tbh.. The attraction is either there or it isn’t.”
I really meant that the cost of entry is in reverse proportion to how much a woman likes you. The more she likes you, the lower the cost. I’m not even talking about sex. If she likes you, she’s going to give you an opening to approach. She’s going to give you her phone number when you ask, she’s going to return your texts and calls in a timely manner, she’s going to say yes to going out, etc. She’s going to make it easier for you.
Dame Marcia
I had a female co-worker at the same time as LO that I’d text/call that both my wife and her husband knew we were doing. It wasn’t anything inappropriate but we did. Momma even talked to her on speaker phone several times. Momma and her both got along and her husband was fine with it. Yet I never contacted LO outside of work, yet she’s who Momma thought I was having an affair with. I don’t get it. Why her? Why not the lady I was contacting socially? I don’t get you women.
Sir Adam,
I’m assuming your wife wasn’t worried about the co-worker you were texting because it was all out in the open. Your wife befriended her as well. Or your manner and behavior around the friend didn’t raise any alarm bells.
I don’t know enough of the details to guess why your wife was worried about your LO. Was it the way you were talking about her? Did she see you interact with her at a work function and figure it out?
Dame Marcia
I don’t think it was any physical difference as they were both attractive women, and both younger than me. Only difference is friend was married and LO was single.
I can recall an argument we had one time …. I came into the kitchen and my wife says “you said HER name in your sleep again” to which I responded “Did I say anyone else’s name.” “You said [friend’s name] to which I immaturely responded “Well am I having an affair with [friend’s name] now too?” My wife was quiet for a minute than she said “It’s different when you say HER [LO] name.”
So perhaps so. Maybe my tone was different when I spoke of LO over other female co-workers. Perhaps I spoke of her more excitedly than others. Of course, then I just thought my wife was crazy and being unreasonable. No one can control what they say in their sleep. And honestly I cannot defend what I supposedly said in my sleep, because I am sleeping. So it easily could have been something she lied about to hold over my head. I don’t that’s what she did, but in the middle of it all I sure wondered.
Adam,
“I don’t think it was any physical difference as they were both attractive women, and both younger than me. ”
Young, hot women are everywhere. If she worried about them, she wouldn’t let you leave the house. 😀
“Only difference is friend was married and LO was single.”
That’s huge. Single implies sexy availability.
“So perhaps so. Maybe my tone was different when I spoke of LO over other female co-workers.”
Most limerents compartmentalize their LOs. You weren’t hiding the friend from her.
“And honestly I cannot defend what I supposedly said in my sleep, because I am sleeping. So it easily could have been something she lied about to hold over my head.”
You think she lied about muttering your LO ‘s name in your sleep?
Either way, she picked up on something. Your tone. Your manner. I think it is probably fairly common. Despite limerent protestations, the SO picks up on something.
Marcia, Adam,
I just don’t think anyone is quite as good at compartmentalizing as our limerent storytelling brains might tell us.
I get the idea of compartmentalizing – I’ve done it. But it is difficult, probably impossible, to hide something as strong as limerence 24/7 from the person, in SO, who knows us best. Whether it is through a slight change in facial expression or demeanour when discussing LO, or ‘mentionitis’, or whatever … I think we always give ourselves away slightly. I don’t believe SO knew anything like what was going on in my head, but did know there was ‘something a bit off’ where it was concerned. I’m guessing though.
🎩 🥃 & 👒 👠 ,
Have to chip in my experience here — how did I find xSO’s 4 flings:
He came from work one day around 6pm, and casually told me that his college classmate dropped by his office to say Hi. One sentence made me to pause one beat inside me, it’s just the TONE, even just from a Non-limerent. It’s like a muscle twitched on his face.
So I casually asked who she was, and within 15 minutes, I figure out what she was. In the next 2 hours, he confessed all four flings after our engagement and before the city-hall registered marriage, just one month earlier.
Evidently My xSO did not have a good poker face. Compartmentalization could only work with highly skilled, habitual liars…. Otherwise, a tone of voice, a tiny twitch of facial muscle could and would give you out… 😏
LaR,
“I don’t believe SO knew anything like what was going on in my head, but did know there was ‘something a bit off’ where it was concerned. I’m guessing though.”
So why didn’t she just ask? I would have asked you. Is there someone else? Particularly if you kept giving me flim-flammy answers when I asked what was wrong (which, tbh, it sounds like you were). It wouldn’t have been the first question I asked but I would have asked eventually.
I’m surprised that more SOs don’t seem to ask that. It’s like they don’t want to know or want to go there. Is that necessary to maintain a long-term relationship? The idea that some things, though tacitly acknowledged, must stay under the rug. Or is the relationship so fractured/disconnected with the SO, they suspect someone else but don’t really care. (I’m not saying that’s your relationship. Just in general.)
Snow,
“He came from work one day around 6pm, and casually told me that his college classmate dropped by his office to say Hi. One sentence made me to pause one beat inside me, it’s just the TONE, even just from a Non-limerent. It’s like a muscle twitched on his face.
So I casually asked who she was, and within 15 minutes”
Yep. You asked because you WANTED to get to the bottom of things. I don’t think some SOs do.
“Evidently My xSO did not have a good poker face. ”
And also you’re probably good at picking up on subtle clues.
I’d say if the SO doesn’t suspect something, the relationship with the limerent is probably a bit disconnected.
Marcia,
“You asked because you WANTED to get to the bottom of things. I don’t think some SOs do.”
I was a newlywed and wasn’t suspecting anything. But inside me felt this subtle twitching “click” based on his tone. It’s like an instinctual reaction, that I didn’t know why. So I kept asking, and his face blushed soon.
Strangely, I didn’t feel hurt (Dad trained me well) but just wanted to know more. Then he himself willingly confessed other 3 incidents, which I would have no way to find out.
“Evidently My xSO did not have a good poker face. ”
“And also you’re probably good at picking up on subtle clues.”
I was/am a limerent, what do you expect⁉️ I was always acutely sensitive since young about other people and everything around me, but I never knew why until LwL.
“I’d say if the SO doesn’t suspect something, the relationship with the limerent is probably a bit disconnected.”
Then that SO is either not confident enough, or sensitive enough, or too fearful to know possibly negative truths.
My father sometimes pointed out possible dark realities down the road and told me how to think about them, should they occur. That’s why I rarely had jealousy issues, except envying my friends who had close siblings.
My own insatiable curiosity has made me to fearlessly encounter so ugly many truths in life, unintended for me to know… 😓
Snow,
“Strangely, I didn’t feel hurt (Dad trained me well) but just wanted to know more. Then he himself willingly confessed other 3 incidents, which I would have no way to find out.”
I would have been crushed. As young as you were. Didn’t you write you were 21? At 21, I still had a fairy tale idea of romance.
“I was/am a limerent, what do you expect⁉️ I was always acutely sensitive since young about other people and everything around me, but I never knew why until LwL.”
I’m pretty observant, too. Picking up on shifts in someone’s personality or in our relationship or friendship or dynamic.
“Then that SO is either not confident enough, or sensitive enough, or too fearful to know possibly negative truths.”
Or they don’t care. I’ve written about it before, but with the LO who became a boyfriend … I suspected he was seeing other women but never said anything. And when we ran into one of them (so he knew that I knew, it was painfully obvious what was going on) … neither of us said anything. He didn’t offer an explanation and I didn’t ask. By that point, I was pretty checked out of the relationship. Someone not asking is not a good sign.
Marcia Dear..
Sorry to bust in on your night with Snow Queen. Saw this a few nights ago, but I lost it and just recently found it again. Wanted to give you proper reply. Apologize for the delay..
“If she likes you, she’s going to give you an opening to approach.”
I introduced myself to her (NG)upon the first night of our working by each other. She introduced herself and was very friendly, very cordial and willing to vibe back and forth, without losing interest in the conversation. I enjoyed this and it felt right.
“She’s going to give you her phone number when you ask, she’s going to return your texts and calls in a timely manner, she’s going to say yes to going out, etc. She’s going to
make it easier for you.”
Not in this exact order but all of this took place within a two month timespan. Like I asked her out first, weeks before I ever got her number. Reason being is she did make it feel so easy. I wasn’t rushing to get her number because I knew I eventually would. So when I chatted about it again a few weeks later, I easily got her number like I knew I would.
I know you’re going to ask why the hell it takes me light years to do anything, but I’m telling you, she literally told me not to rush anything with her. So I’ve always been about keeping things extra light, without going bat$#!+ crazy over having to be in constant communication with her all the time. Obviously that must cramp her style.
We’ve had some good back and forth via txt but nothing like insane constant crazy texting.
We txtd back and forth right before New Year’s and she apologized again for her kid being in the way with everything. She mentioned she was hopeful we would be able to do something one night coming up.
I’m of course seeing this as flim-flammy but now I am also suddenly being ghosted.. I know your wise words will be, “Ok next” or something of that nature.
It was supposed to be dinner. Thats it. No agenda. A casual pizza. Nothing really more. If something was going to jump off, I suppose I’d allow it. But apparently she’s not ready or interested enough. Give me an E for effort.. Whatever.. I can’t even get a damn cup of coffee. What made me think I’d get a whole dinner out of this? 😑
MJ,
How can I write this more plainly? If you can’t get her on a date within 2 or 3 weeks, tops — AND THAT INCLUCES first approaching/first meeting and first getting her number/first texting — she’s not interested.
This is all common sense. If your LO showed up at your door and asked you to get a drink right then, would you tell her you’d like to go but didn’t want to rush anything ?
Miss Marcia,
Just saw your post here; the other shows buried this one.
“I would have been crushed. As young as you were. Didn’t you write you were 21? At 21, I still had a fairy tale idea of romance.”
xSO was 22 and me 25 by then. The discovery was unbelievable on an intellectual level, but I was always delayed in realizing, in the visceral level, what had happened — bad or good events. My system is still the same way: delaying, very slowing in digesting/absorbing emotional food…
My logical mind usually reacted really fast. On the back of my head, Dad’s advice would semi-consciously babble up: the milk is already spilled, what are you going to prevent the same occurrence in the future?
SO was sweet and apologetic but weak-minded; he couldn’t act up on his own to cut off the two bothering flings, as I told you before. But with his help, I confronted them in person and on the phone, then even took a legal step. They both backed up. They were not LE cases, just causal PAs.
“I’m pretty observant, too. Picking up on shifts in someone’s personality or in our relationship or friendship or dynamic.”
But I couldn’t remember some traumatic events and their consequences, e.g. Mom killed my pet chick for dinner 2 years (?) before we were exiled. My protective brain knew when/how to shut down while facing all sorts of traumas…
“Or they don’t care. I’ve written about it before, but with the LO who became a boyfriend … I suspected he was seeing other women but never said anything. And when we ran into one of them (so he knew that I knew, it was painfully obvious what was going on) … neither of us said anything. He didn’t offer an explanation and I didn’t ask. By that point, I was pretty checked out of the relationship. Someone not asking is not a good sign.”
Yeah, I remember this piece of your stories, it’s really painful to hear. I suspect that if in your shoe, I’d ask or do something with this LO, as soon as I began to suspect he was seeing other women. Without doing anything, the answer could only be NO. If making a firm step to just find out, the answer could be No or Yes.
That’s what I meant with Stoic practice: you Prepare for /Assume the worst result of a given situation, but still make your best effort to improve it — what other better or more meaningful things to do meanwhile? If your efforts fail, you would have already known it, no big deal/not the end of the world; but if they succeed even just 5-10% percent of your wished outcome, you’d feel surprisingly happy and encouraged. You’d keep trying with an improved confidence.
I think you gave up too fast on an ominous sign. If ourselves don’t “fight” for our own wellbeing, who else would do it for us, particularly when your own family didn’t care much about you⁉️
Marcia
No you can’t say it more plainly or obvious. You can’t make it more clear.
My physical hearing actually hears her tell me yes. My rational brain deciphers positivity in her voice. So my hopes are high. Then when the rubber meets the road, I get a flat.. This is why its freakin aggravating..
I’d like to stress, that this Woman and I have had plenty of conversation already about her non-committal behavior. I don’t cross lines when she’s had enough and I don’t beg or text incessantly when I don’t get an answer or one that is weak or that I don’t like.
Its flim-flammy. So she’s not interested. I get it, but I don’t like being pissed on and then being told its only raining.. My options are minimal to non existent. I suppose thats why I’ll keep hoping she’ll commit.
MJ,
The time frame I suggested that you approach/ask out women will prevent you from wasting your time. Two or three weeks, tops, and the clock starts ticking the moment you meet her. What you have with this woman is a texting friendship.
“I’d like to stress, that this Woman and I have had plenty of conversation already about her non-committal behavior. ”
What is there to talk about? The minute you get a flim flam answer after the FIRST TIME you ask her out (and “don’t be in a hurry” was flim flam answer), the conversation is done.
“I suppose that’s why I’ll keep hoping she’ll commit.”
If someone will not go out with you, she’s either:
1.) with someone else or not over someone else;
2.) doesn’t know what she wants;
3.) isn’t sufficiently interested; or
4.) just enjoying the attention/friendship but wants nothing else.
I would tell a woman the same thing if a guy was hovering/orbiting/texting but not asking her out. I would tell myself the same thing! 🙂
All you have to do is flip the situation. What would you do if a woman asked you out who you really liked? That will tell you everything.
Ah, Marcia and MJ,
I would take the stress out of the situation. It sounds so full of pressure to me. We don’t know really if she‘s interested or not, and I bet she doesn’t know either.
There‘s no rule or time frame, why not just go with the flow- you‘ll see her at work anyway, why not be nice as always and when opportunity comes up, say „what about that dinner“ and then put the ball in her court and tell her just to come back to you with a day since she seems to be the one more pressured with time.
If she doesn’t come back, so be it. But all the „she‘s not interested because she should have done this and this“ is too early for my feeling. People are so different.
Mila,
You’re budding in here without knowing all the details.
I’m trying to get him to break a pattern with long periods of texting them and asking them out repeatedly after receiving flim-flam responses. And months go by of this, and he gets frustrated, thinking they’ve led him on.
Hi Marcia,
Ok, but what do you think about the strategy of putting the ball into her court with a clear phrase, and then just see what happens instead of asking her out repeatedly?
From what I read I couldn’t really deduce if she‘s interested in a coffee or dinner or not. So if she is, and the ball is in her court, she should be able to come up with some date where it’s possible. If not, then that would be pretty clear for me and I wouldn’t ask her out again.
Maybe I missed something, I definitely missed the texting bit.
Mila
Ok, but what do you think about seeing what happens instead of asking her out repeatedly?”
I suggested that in other posts. If she wants to circle back around after giving a flim-flam answer and suggest meeting up, that’s fine, but I hesitate to emphasis that because, as he wrote, he’s been hanging around, hoping she’ll finally commit to going out. Limerents … as we all know … thrive on hope and will park themselves in front of someone who isn’t giving them much in the hope things will change. So ask out and then move on. So as not to waste week/months on someone who may never materialize.
“From what I read I couldn’t really deduce if she‘s interested in a coffee or dinner or not. ”
If someone gives you a flim flam answer, I’d say they’re not interested. Especially if they’re putting you off repeatedly. I use the term “not interested” broadly … could be overwhelmed with life, distracted, depressed, Idk. Any number of things. The more you focus on the reason (which you’ll never really know), the more excuses you’ll give the person for their behavior. And you CAN NOT take what they say as gospel. It could be made up. Have you never made up a boyfriend when turning someone down?
Hi Marcia,
I definitely have missed a lot, I didn’t know he was limerent for her. How you describe it, there‘s no need to put the ball in her court because it already is?
„Have you never made up a boyfriend when turning someone down?“
I don’t think so. I just turned them down, I guess 🙈
Mila,
“I definitely have missed a lot, I didn’t know he was limerent for her.”
He’s not. But that’s what limerents do in general — they fixate. They park. Dating is not fun. I can definitely relate to spending too much time on one prospect because I didn’t want to go out and find another.
“How you describe it, there‘s no need to put the ball in her court because it already is?”
In this situation, yes. But in the future, with someone else, if he gets a nebulous answer after the VERY FIRST time he asks a new woman out … “I’m busy with my kid,” for example. “Ok, let me know when you get some free time and we’ll schedule something.” And then the ball’s in her court.
[Have you never made up a boyfriend when turning someone down?“]
“I don’t think so. I just turned them down, I guess 🙈”
I have. Usually if it’s someone who surprises me and I wasn’t expecting it and I feel a bit uncomfortable. But one time this guy asked me out from the same job where I worked with my LO, and I did say “no thank you” because I didn’t want it to get around to my LO I wasn’t available.
„ . But in the future, with someone else, if he gets a nebulous answer after the VERY FIRST time he asks a new woman out … “I’m busy with my kid,” for example. “Ok, let me know when you get some free time and we’ll schedule something.” And then the ball’s in her court.“
Exactly what I meant, but couldn’t he still do that?
I‘m too long out of the dating world I guess. I would completely sink and mess everything up, probably. I marvel at the new apps , it’s a whole new world of pressure and anxiety opening up 😂just kidding, I know at least two very happy couples who found each other there.
„ I have. Usually if it’s someone who surprises me and I wasn’t expecting it and I feel a bit uncomfortable.“
I see. Yes, it’s probably a good move to mention a boyfriend who might be near if you feel uncomfortable. Maybe mention he‘s a wrestler or something?😂
I sometimes put my hand with the wedding ring up to my hair or whatever to clear the situation up, it’s very convenient.
Mila,
“Exactly what I meant, but couldn’t he still do that?”
I’m not sure what you’re asking, but I wouldn’t ask the current one out again. He already has a few times.
” I know at least two very happy couples who found each other there.”
That’s good to know. When I was on the sites, I started messaging one guy on the site and he very quickly gave me his cell phone number. And I could see what he was doing. It wasn’t a bad move. He was trying to push things forward and leaving the ball in my court. You can message someone indefinitely on the site (or even through texting, tbh) and never meet up. It’s actually very common. I’d say if you’re not meeting up in a week or two after first messaging each other, you’re probably wasting your time. That’s what I was trying to tell MJ. It happens to women, too. Don’t get sucked up in a texting/vague promises and excuses loop.
“Maybe mention he‘s a wrestler or something?😂”
Yeah. 🙂
“I sometimes put my hand with the wedding ring up to my hair or whatever to clear the situation up, it’s very convenient.”
There you go. 🙂
Marcia, Mila, MJ, etc.
I feel like most of us who’ve waded in have said much the same to MJ – don’t ask her again, and don’t hold out hope. Anything better than the answers so far (from her side) is a bonus but is not to be expected. I think this approach works for face-saving on *both* sides.
Marcia – your principle (and I do agree with it, to be clear) of “accept the first no as a clear know unless advised otherwise”, depends on the question also being clear. If the question is flim-flammy, then so will probably be the answers.
I’m not sure if the preference for a direct approach for a date within a couple of weeks is more your own, or partly cultural. Some of our European friends on LwL have explained to you before how it can be a lot more awkward and indirect on our side of the pond. I think some people here would – like you – value a quick, direct approach, but many others would be scared off by it or find it very (too) forward. Mila, where would you sit on this (in an imagined world where you were ‘in the market’).
Several of my relationships across life have taken time to build before taking off, without that fast initial approach. Like I say, I don’t know how much of it is cultural vs personal. And Marcia, to borrow a phrase, I know we don’t agree on it.
If a workplace is involved, it also adds layers. Some workplaces ban or force disclosure of relations between employees. My employer quite actively discourages them. The prospect of a humiliating meeting with the HR department if you ‘overstep’ is real these days (now, I am not saying a single casual date invite is an overstep, but repeated ones could be).
I recently saw a news article that ‘sauna dating’ is taking off in my country, for those who want a different approach from using the apps. Yep, it works exactly like you’d expect. What do people think? (It is probably a young person’s thing, is my opinion … but then again, I can see some pros to it compared to apps…).
LaR,
“I’m not sure if the preference for a direct approach for a date within a couple of weeks is more your own, or partly cultural.”
Isn’t MJ in America? Do we care what the Europeans are doing? 🙂
To be clear, I’m talking about a situation where we’ve talked/met face to face. (Not on a dating site. I have had guys match with me and their FIRST or nearly first message is wanting to meet up. That’s way too soon. I know nothing about this person other than a few pics and a few paragraphs. I’d like to message a little bit on the site, then maybe text a little, then maybe have a phone call, before we meet. But that’s a little different. Because it’s a DATING site and each side knows what the deal is in terms of the kind of interest on the table. And I still think you should meet up within a week or two or it could be an endless loop of messaging. Meeting up within a week or two shows you are serious and not wasting someone’s time.)
But if I meet you at a meet up, for example, and we have a nice conversation but you don’t get my number or message me later through the site, I’ll think you’re not interested. And if I keep running into you at meetups and the same thing happens … nice chat but you don’t do anything, I’ll conclude the same thing. Or if you get my number but all we do is text … I’m going to think this will never get off the ground. Or you just want to be friends.
I don’t know how else you let someone know you’re interested and serious (meaning: intentional) unless you ask them out.
Lar,
Sorry. I forgot the other part of your message.
I have no idea what sauna dating is … but I don’t know if there are that many people I want to see in a towel. 🙂
„Mila, where would you sit on this (in an imagined world where you were ‘in the market’).“
The direct approach is or was definitely not used in my circles. There was no real „asking out“ since people hang out together anyway, even one to one, without it meaning more than friendship. Of course, if someone asked you for a one on one coffee or dinner whom you didn’t know before, the possibility hang in the air, so to say, but it didn’t mean necessarily something more than just wanting to socialize with maybe the option of more developing.
But of course that was in my 20/30s, when there were larger socializing groups at university or work. I see the same with my young colleagues, but now there are also the dating apps in use, and here it’s of course straightforward.
And I don’t know how people in 40/50s go about it. I think they use the apps/sites more than the casual socializing approach.
But specific „asking out for a date“ is definitely not something people do in my environment. It might be an American thing, I agree.
I don’t know what dating is like anywhere but America. But here, IMO, the only way a man can signal he’s serious is if he asks the woman out. And the only way for a woman to signal she’s serious (or at least willing to give things a shot) is to say yes and go on that date.
I would personally not take anything else seriously that a guy does. Otherwise … he’s just flirting or enjoying the texting or the attention, etc.
Marcia
“Isn’t MJ in America? Do we care what the Europeans are doing? 🙂”
You could at least pretend 🙂
That’s why I wondered if quick direct approaches are normal in US culture or a personal preference – is what MJ has done with a slower approach to this woman that far out of whack with what many others do there?
“And I still think you should meet up within a week or two or it could be an endless loop of messaging”
Yep. My experience of those sites is limited and old, as you know. But I avoided those endless messaging loops as well. A couple of messages each way and then it needed to go somewhere or be left.
“if I keep running into you at meetups and the same thing happens … nice chat but you don’t do anything”
Agree … once could be excused as a more cautious and measured approach, but failure to act on it twice and it would be my loss.
“I don’t know how else you let someone know you’re interested and serious (meaning: intentional) unless you ask them out.”
I know the times are a-changin’, but the onus is usually on the man here. The challenge is how to land it right. When I asked my SO out, I invited her for drinks and she accepted. I then later added on a suggestion of food after the drinks, in a different place. She told me later that it was then that she realised I meant ‘as more than just friends’. I had obviously left it in the grey areas initially.
LaR,
“You could at least pretend 🙂”
Why would I want to? The European dating system sounds wack-a-doodle. Let’s just hang out in a group hang and try to guess what’s happening. That’s why you like it. You love ambiguity. And then you probably got home from one of those group hangs and dissected every possible angle and possibility. For months. 🙂
“That’s why I wondered if quick direct approaches are normal in US culture or a personal preference – is what MJ has done with a slower approach to this woman that far out of whack with what many others do there?”
I haven’t taken a poll, but I’d say it’s expected a man asks the woman on a date. I watch this one male dating coach (to get the male perspective) and he said that every guy gets the memo by about the third grade that if he likes a girl, he needs to ask her out (he’s being a little sarcastic, but you get the idea). And in America, anyway, a man shows his interest through his efforts.
“My experience of those sites is limited and old, as you know. But I avoided those endless messaging loops as well. A couple of messages each way and then it needed to go somewhere or be left.”
That’s what I’m trying to say. There has to be a sense of escalation.
“Agree … once could be excused as a more cautious and measured approach, but failure to act on it twice and it would be my loss.”
You know how I feel about cautious and measured. 🙂 I wouldn’t wait two times. How many times did you go to a meetup and then not see the person at the next meetup or maybe not see them for months?
“I know the times are a-changin’, but the onus is usually on the man here. ”
Yes, that’s true, the man generally leads, but I’d also argue it’s a bit of a tango. As Snow says. The man shouldn’t feel like it’s difficult to get her on that date. He asks, she says yes, and they go out. It really is that simple.
“I had obviously left it in the grey areas initially.”
I wonder what it was about the dinner suggestion that made it clear.
When I hung out with my guy friend before he disclosed, I didn’t feel like those were dates.
LAR, Marcia,
in my days, 100 years ago, it was usually often made clear by a physical move, most often taking her/his hand (while walking, while sitting in the cinema, or on the table etc). I think that happened more often than disclosing by words? Could even happen in a group event- people watching a film, he‘s sitting next to you and he takes your hand (that you placed conveniently near his hand). But before that, of course there must be vibes and little hints. I mean, people can very often feel if someone likes them a bit more than usual, and there are so many possibilities to show it (as you say, make an effort), without turning it into a businesslike transaction „you interested?-yes- ok great“.
It might seem like unnecessary flim-flamming to you, and it has a lot of room for evading and playing games, but still… I like it.
But as I said, it probably only works in a certain age span when one meets a lot of people anyway. I don’t know.
Mila,
“But before that, of course there must be vibes and little hints. I mean, people can very often feel if someone likes them a bit more than usual”
Can they? Have you read this site? 🙂
“But as I said, it probably only works in a certain age span when one meets a lot of people anyway. I don’t know.”
Or when you have “group hangs.” When is the last time you had a group hang?
When I was 19, I had a big crush on this guy I worked with. I was probably limerent. I thought the signs were there that he was interested. From what I could tell, at that age. He talked to me a lot, he complimented me, he kissed me on the cheek once, we had lunch together. One time I mentioned a movie I went to see and he said he was going to ask me to see it. Now, he would ask me to do things and then start inviting other co-workers (we were all young and single). And then he would cancel the plans. This happened several times. We eventually hung out a couple of times with the group (and one of those times, he and I spent a big chunk of it alone) … but, still, nothing seemed to be happening. Finally, after about a year of this, I got so frustrated … maybe this is a strategy for you, MJ 🙂 …. I asked him to doing something (can’t remember what), I got his number, I called him (in the days before cell phones, when you had to call), I picked him up and I drove us to where we were going. This was a big deal for me because I was very shy. And when we got there … two of his friends were waiting for us! I was done. It was finally obvious to me this was never going to happen. This is what I was telling MJ. That whole year of hoping something would happen had felt like climbing Mt. Everest with this guy.
A group hang in America signals … I don’t want to be alone with you. IMO.
I just read my message again. You KNOW you’re in trouble when you have to list all the reasons you THINK someone is into you. 🙂 If they wanted you to know, you’d know. 🙂
Lady Marcia,
After your “shows” with our European sector, I’m fairly certain that my future BP, who looks like younger Jeremy Irons with a 🐉 spirit, who could also toy with dirty dishes 🍽️ , scrub scented jacuzzi 🛁 , and beat/pound my lingeries 👘 with a baseball bat, is NOT in Europe…. so gentle, clever, evasive, and incisive… by the time they are ready to jump in, my jacuzzi water is too cold to dabble his 🦵🏽🦵🏽 …
Snow,
“I’m fairly certain that my future BP, who looks like younger Jeremy Irons with a 🐉 spirit, who could also toy with dirty dishes 🍽️ , scrub scented jacuzzi 🛁 , and beat/pound my lingeries 👘 with a baseball bat, is NOT in Europe…. so gentle, clever, evasive, and incisive… by the time they are ready to jump in, my jacuzzi water is too cold to dabble his 🦵🏽🦵🏽 …”
Oh, my INFP friend … you do know this man doesn’t exist, right? 🙂
Lady Marcia,
“Oh, my INFP friend … you do know this man doesn’t exist, right? 🙂”
It doesn’t matter what I know or what’s (im)possible, am I allowed to send my dreams 💭 or wishes 🌬️ to the galaxy 🌌 ❓
Long before I ever heard of limerence, I was alternately enjoying and suffering from it—and then, when one LO was taken out of my life for whatever reason, another would eventually come. It became so normal that in years where I didn’t have an LO, I’d long for one, look for one. In fact, a few years ago, I thought about changing denominations, but couldn’t help looking at webstreams of services and wondering if anybody there could replace LO.
Serial,
So based on that, would you say that you can ‘hold’ an LO/LE in your life, with it doing you no more harm than good? I think a lot of limmies would like to get to that point, but those who actually do are rare…
I get why you’re asking, lol! I think it depends on how much of an internal turmoil you can stand, and how much you can keep it from affecting anything or anyone else in your life. Periods after losing LO’s tend to be very depressed and difficult for me, leading to trouble keeping up with the things I have to do, and then people start to notice and object. But when things are going well, it can be pleasant, even fun.
Serial,
“I get why you’re asking, lol!”
It’s OK, clever cookie, – I wasn’t going for a Limmy for most cryptic question of the year!
Your answer is accurate in my case too. Once I wrote off that anything would ever happen (and that took a long time to really register at a visceral level), I do now ‘hold’ it without much internal turmoil or effect on others. I sometimes curse myself that I can’t just put a red line through it all, but it is what it is.
“I think it depends on how much of an internal turmoil you can stand”
Great analogy Serial. I have a higher tolerance for alcohol than most people do, so I can handle it better. I guess I cannot say the same for internal turmoil for as hard as limerence hit/hits me. Limerence, however, much like alcohol; it is all or nothing. Since I am married I can dabble in limerence like I could if I were single. Like when I am in situations where I need to stay sober, I cannot even have one drink, because I won’t stop there. So the same with limerence.
„ I do now ‘hold’ it without much internal turmoil or effect on others. I sometimes curse myself that I can’t just put a red line through it all, but it is what it is.“
I‘m a bit curious as to what you both mean by „holding it“. For me, limerence is by definition a kind of obsession, something that governs too much of my mind and makes me crave contacts and reciprocal stuff that’s not allowed to me since it would hurt others.
What is that „holding without turmoil“? Is it like a dormant virus like Herpes (I’m very upbeat this morning!), like it could break out again if for example something exciting from LOs side would come forward, or is it like a mild crush on someone, and would you really call that limerence? Limerence, for me, affects my life and thoughts.
Mila,
I suppose for me ‘holding the situation’ means holding and not acting out on the knowledge that for now and the foreseeable future, she means a bit more to me than she ‘should’. I still find her attractive, I still get a bit of a jolt when I hear from her, she is still one of the first people I want to go to with news, or for an opinion on things.
But I have pushed all of it further back in my brain, and I act out on it less. It doesn’t intrude in the front of my mind, wreck my days etc. It just sits there more contentedly in the back of my mind. I feel like by mid 2025, via a difficult process to get there, I had made my peace with the situation and sat it there. Kind of gave up thinking / secretly hoping it would ever go anywhere and got into thought pattern: “it’s there, but is not going to torture me any more”. Since then I have been able to take or leave her company more, but I mostly find it enjoyable when I do take it, and don’t crash afterwards or ruminate on every detail like I once did.
By your definition, it isn’t really limerence any more. Nor is it normal platonic friendship. I have often used the term MFF herr instead of LO or xLO, as I think that describes it most accurately.
Maybe you could waggle your brain after coffee and come up with a new word to describe it?!
Hi LaR,
I waggled my brain )I love that expression!) but predictably, nothing came out , as my brain seems quite empty today…
I guess there must be shades of limerence, or transitions, not black/white. Sometimes the term „limerence“ gets really waggly in my head and I’m not sure where it starts and stops and what it means at all.
I also wonder if my ability to judge it ceased the moment I was really rid of it, if I can only understand the state of limerence when I’m actually in it.
Dear Norma
I think I found us another good song to dance at the fabled LwL meetup. It’s quite the limerent song that I think fits both you and I’s limerent experience. It’s got a nice slow, smooth tempo. And the drummer is absolutely killing it.
Can’t You Feel My Love — Matthew Fisher
https://youtu.be/t6PifVIMBFI?si=1OyaotVt2EeMSKxa
To Adam:
I was not familiar with that song. I learned from the comments that this man used to be in Procol Harum? I had almost forgotten about them.
The song is perfect. It made me cry.
Even though it made me cry, it also helped me somehow. Thank you.
Yes Matthew Fisher who played the Hammond organ for Procol Harum wrote a significant amount of the music for their most popular song A Whier Shade of Pale. Him and iirc the lead singer got into a rather nasty court battle over royalties when the lead singer downplayed his role in the making of the song.
Three other great Matthew Fisher songs I like to listen to; he’s a great singer. Not sure how much of his songs he writes himself. But they are quite limerence-y.
Can’t Stop Loving You
https://youtu.be/r4ZVGjNiwOU?si=ukVAu3iObhSZbS7W
She Makes Me Feel
https://youtu.be/YZ6ThOe0C20?si=LHER5MJkZ9aiapwD
Why Did I Have To Fall In Love With You
https://youtu.be/C7o7fPJTZQw?feature=shared
To Adam:
I like all of those. Thank you for introducing me to these songs.
You’re welcome Dear Norma. Sorry Can’t You Feel My Love made you cry. I wouldn’t have posted it if I thought that’d be your reaction. But I did it many times listening to it in the worst of limerence. I couldn’t understand how she couldn’t see how I felt about her. “But I know you don’t care.” Was the worst part.
To Adam:
My LO DOES know how I feel about him and he doesn’t care.
I’m so sorry he does that to you. It makes me feel like this … but know I treasure our friendship Dear Norma. I am so glad to know you. And I will do anything to ease your pain.
3:48 is my reaction to how he treats you.
https://youtu.be/vhdFk8uN–A?si=BqHW1f2pFetEv_Vm
To Adam:
Wow, that’s pretty intense. I have not seen that movie.
Good to see William Hurt in better days.
It’s probably my favorite portrayal of Hulk outside the 70’s show I watched on reruns with my father with Bill Bixby and Lou Ferrigno. William Hurt did good as Ross (the general, father of Betty, Liv Tyler) but I really liked Sam Elliot as Ross in an early 2000’s version of the movie with Eric Bana.
Sam Elliots best role ever.
https://youtu.be/5C0D4ndt7jg?si=hLLujF8STS2DuB2U
I feel like The Dude in this clip.. 😆😆
Ugh White Russians make me 🤢
I’d forgot he was in Big Lebowski. As a comic book geek (bonus points for why this s my username) this is probably my favorite Sam Elliot moment.
https://youtu.be/08RJq-Hwr5I?si=CHmDsx5-tt0QYkmK
I see you AdamWarlock. Been awhile since I saw that one.
Think I chatted with you once on the Stoic channel before.. 😆
If it was adamwarlock2099 it was me. It’s pretty much been my handle on the internet since the 90’s.
Yes that was it. I’m subscribed too. Interesting playlist, lol..
Where have I seen that music before?
If you see me again, I’m RUsMJ21495.. 😆
This gal is killing me. Sundress AND thigh high cowgirl boots?!?! Heaven help me ….
https://youtu.be/skAOb_EUE_M?si=I2vqXjY0MSts79rO
Hey everyone,
“ They are both somehow stuck in this pattern…. both are adults and both are mired in that mess from own volition.“
Kinda like how my country is stuck in this pattern where every so often we decide it’s a good idea to unilaterally remove the leader of an oil rich nation, “just run the country for a little while until there’s a peaceful transition of power”, discover over the course of many long and terrible years that it just doesn’t work that way, eventually give up and bring our troops back home after killing hundreds of thousands of people, destabilizing a nation and creating a vacuum filled by brutal resistance/terrorist organizations (in a few years Americans are gonna be totally confused about why Venezuelan ISIS keeps messing up our plans for peaceful nation building), and then a little while later decide to do it again because “it’ll totally be different this time”.
Sorry about the digression, I just woke up feeling disgusted and hopeless this morning… but anyway, thank you to everyone who took the time to read my way-too-long post the other day and comment, I appreciate it a lot! I was gonna reply to a few things separately but decided it would be simpler to just do one response, plus maybe helpful for me to try to consolidate my thoughts.
Should I be confused about her behavior? Obviously no, I shouldn’t – once something has happened repeatedly I shouldn’t be confused when the same thing happens again. In the big picture, zoomed out, rational thought manner, then no it’s not confusing at all. In the zoomed in, living life one day at a time, emotional mind manner of speaking, then yes it feels very confusing when someone is warm and friendly and affectionate to you for weeks and is having long deep conversations with you daily and texting back and forth all the time and telling you how much you mean to them and you’re laughing together and crying together and feel super close and connected and then one day the connection is severed, the walls are up, the warmth turns to ice, they won’t talk to you, and if you do get a response it’s something like “nothing’s wrong, we’re cool, it doesn’t matter if we talk or not because we’re nothing to each other, sorry if I hurt your feelings” followed by more coldness. While the rational mind can understand the pattern, the emotional nervous system registers it as a huge shock and a threat and a loss and a problem to solve”. So I guess maybe it’s fair to say that the confusion is because the rational mind and the emotional mind are telling me totally different things and the emotional mind is telling me its things with extreme urgency.
Does attachment style matter when there’s not actually a “relationship”? That’s a great question too, and I’ve thought about it a lot. I think it does, and it drives a lot of what happens here. If LO was secure, she would have had a talk with me once about how “I like you but we’re both in relationships so we can’t do this” and then that woulda been the end of it. If she was AP, we’d probably be in a full blown PA or worse by now. If she was DA, she probably would have done the disappearing act with no explanation and then just never come back. But since she’s FA, she does the exact thing that FAs do – gets close, gets panicked by closeness, creates distance by any means possible, feels relieved at first, then misses the connection and gets close again. Over and over and over again.
The question is what am I? With my SO, I’m probably AP leaning secure. With most other people in my lifetime, I actually tend towards avoidance more than anxious attachment – I often start feeling smothered when friends want to hang out more than every couple of weeks or so. I tend to not let most people get too close and I have trouble opening up to most people. With LO of course I’m super anxious/preoccupied, but is that actually my attachment style, or just a byproduct of limerence and/or a response to her avoidance? There have actually been a few times where I’ve used avoidant behaviors to create distance from LO in moments where she was scaring me by wanting to get too close. So if I can run the whole spectrum between anxious and avoidant depending on the person and situation, am I actually FA myself? Or am I secure but can be pulled other ways depending on the situation?
Does LO do it on purpose? Is it manipulative? Especially since it happens over and over? I really don’t think so. I definitely have my moments of anger, or more like extreme frustration, my “why can’t we just talk to each other?!?” moments. If I never saw her during her shutdowns, I’d probably believe it was voluntary. But the thing about working together is that sometimes I do encounter her during her shutdowns, and what I observe has me convinced that she’s being controlled by powerful emotions during these times, not that she’s choosing to act that way. I’ve made eye contact with her a few times during shutdowns and the pain and sorrow in her eyes has been so deep it makes me want to cry. Other times she’s almost locked eyes with me and then look down immediately with a look of deep shame on her face. Others times we’ve ended up in the elevator together with other coworkers and she’s turned her back on me and I could hear her crying. Other times I’ve seen her whole body tense and recoil when she encounters me, clearly going instantly into fight or flight mode. And she’s told me this repeatedly after we reconnect – that it’s never something she wants and she feels terrible about it, but her anxiety and emotions just get so high she can’t be in contact with me without completely breaking down.
I’ve read a bunch recerntly about avoidant attachment, and a very common theme is that for avoidants, especially FAs, the deactivation and pulling away isn’t a choice, it’s survival, it’s the primitive brain screaming “threat threat threat!! RUN!!!” One FA on Reddit wrote that she always wants closeness, but at a certain point there is a sudden flip into sheer panic, and it feels like drowning underwater- and if you’re drowning, the one and only thing you can think about is getting your head out of the water and surviving, and it has to happen right now and it doesn’t matter how.
Is it related to her BPD? I’ve wondered that a lot too. Does she split on me and suddenly hate me sometimes? I’ve asked her a couple times after we reconnect – do you sometimes start to hate me? I could understand it if she did. But she’s always said no, absolutely not, it’s always that my feelings for you are too good and that makes me panic. I do wonder if she sometimes splits on the idea of our relationship – from what I understand, BPD splitting involves difficulties holding things as part good and part bad, so the person flips between viewing it as all good or all bad. Our relationship is obviously really complicated, so it’s certainly possible that her mind could split between “it’s totally fine, were close friends and I feel good being close to him” and “this is so wrong and it needs to end completely”. Another feature of BPD is the unstable sense of self – sometimes I feel like I’m dealing with different people from one day to a next with her, and that seems to be pretty common as well – I’ve heard people with BPD say things like “my loved ones get confused by how much I change. I get confused too, there are times I don’t know who I am or what I want and it changes day to day or moment to moment sometimes”.
Anyway, I gotta go right now… I’m gonna post again later this weekend about the biggest questions of all – is this all my fault, am I being totally inappropriate and she’s responding normally, how much control do I or don’t I have over the situation, how much does this affect me and make me crazy and how much tolerance to internal turmoil do I have…
Until then Happy New Year and thank you all for listening and caring ❤️
Hi LiS,
can I totally inappropriately say again that I really enjoy your writing style?
I‘ll wait for the sequel , if only for that reason;)
Hi Mila, I don’t think it’s inappropriate for you to tell a married man that you enjoy his writing style, unless “writing style” is a euphemism for something else 😉
As far as I know it’s not, but then again who knows what the kids are saying these days… I mean, I never thought that “6-7” was the funniest joke ever told, but what do I know?
Hi LiS,
I certainly don’t mean anything other than writing style, since I think your romantic life is already overcrowded;)
I cannot help but think a bit along MJs lines- that the perfect relationship with SO you outline cannot be just that perfect, it’s a bubble based on a partial truth that would burst if she knew she’s sharing importance and love with someone she doesn’t even know, that a huge part of your inner and outer life is made completely unknown to her by you.
I know you know that, I just question the very happy picture you draw of your double life, in that it might be happy for you alone, but distressing for your LO (I think it’s worrying that she didn’t take the job that was better for her because of you, it would make me feel bad)and some sort of illusion or delusion for your SO.
Sorry to be harsh because I know you worry about these things much yourself, but I also feel that you are a tiny bit proud that you manage to juggle everything and make everyone happy, and this last bit (making them happy) I do question a bit.
Sorry again if I overstep here.
I can tell you though that this 67 bit baffles me thoroughly (it’s also in in my country), I cannot for the heck see what’s supposed to be funny…
It’s not just splitting regarding the relationship/you, but also potentially the fear of abandonment.
Hi Serial,
Yes, I think that plays a big role too. Actually, the last conversation I had with her before this last shutdown involved me telling her something about this cool nursing job I’d heard about that she might want to apply for after she graduates in the spring – it’s in the same town as our current job but not at the same place or same organization. That might have raised a bunch of thoughts about “will you still care about me after I don’t work with you any more” and caused some panic, and played a role in the withdrawal.
I actually expect a lot of back and forth as her graduation day approaches and she starts thinking about new jobs. I can see one part of mind telling her “it’s gonna hurt really bad when you leave and can’t see him anymore, so better to just pull away now to minimize the pain of that last day”, while another part of her mind intermittently panics and makes her try to pull closer at times.
That actually happened a couple years ago, right when she started full time school – she decided logically that it would make sense to find a new job with more flexible and shorter hours with a shorter commute so she could focus more on school. At first, she involved me a lot in her job search and thought processes, she’d call me all the time to talk through her thoughts about various jobs – I hated the thought of her leaving but I never tried to hold her back from what was best for her, I did my best to just be objective and be a sounding board for her, I wrote her a letter of recommendation and did whatever I could to help her, and when she found something that seemed genuinely great for her I was excited and happy for her (albeit still hoping that we’d find a way to stay in contact).
When she actually accepted the other job and submitted a quit date for her job here, it suddenly became really real to her. She’d became really cold and distant with me for a week or two, and then suddenly she’d be coming by my desk with donuts and little shoulder rubs and telling me how much I meant to her and that the idea of not seeing me anymore was really messing with her head. And then back to being cold again. She ended up getting to within a week of her quit date and then withdrew her resignation with our place and told the other place sorry, I’m not going to able to join you. She never told me directly that it was because of me – she said something pretty unconvincing about not wanting to lose her pension credits or something, but did tell me that “seeing you is the only good thing about staying here”. And then we talked every day for awhile and things felt really good, and then I guess got too close and then the walls went back up, and we settled back into our cycles…
LIS,
Two things: So I’m a fearful avoidant and yes, we can pull away if triggered, but you’re not available. So right there, there is a built-in barrier to too much closeness. That’s what I was trying to explain to Speedwagon. Attachment theory can only explain so much if one or both parties isn’t available.
Secondly, and I my tone in writing this isn’t meant to be flippant or sarcastic, but it’s a lot of drama. This constant back and forth; this inability to have a serious, direct conversation; this focus on her mental health. After 2.5 years, I’d think you’d be exhausted and frustrated. I think you need to ask yourself what you’re getting out of it.
(From Divorced Man MJ to Married Man LIS)
In addition to Marcias post, I also still question the validity of what you’re relationship status is with SO. I can’t believe its as fantastic as you claim it is. To be deeply in love with her, feeling close and emotionally connected. That is all very important to her. Obviously.
So think of how fraudulent it really is. How would SO feel. That you even utter the word love to another Woman. You do really hold her in too high regard. I don’t get it.. The drama.. No wonder you’ll find relief if she quits. I would be exhausted and frustrated too.
MJ – I don’t have time to write back to your question in the way it deserves tonight, but I definitely will soon
Hi Lost! It’s good to hear from you! I’ve been reading your updates. I’m sorry that your mom’s dementia is progressing. I don’t mean to pressure you, but I hope that someone trustworthy has power of attorney over your mom’s assets and power of attorney over your mom’s medical decisions. It’s so much easier to advocate for someone when you have the legal paperwork backing you up. I’m glad that your sister is doing better. Mine is doing much worse. She sold her house, bought an RV and she is kind of homeless now. She is also estranged from her whole family (that’s a lot of people). I worry about her, but I can’t contact her due to my protective order. She posts hate-filled TikTok videos online, which I’m kind of grateful for because I check periodically to see when she last posted to give myself peace of mind that she’s still alive.
As for my LO, we had a lovely 3-year friendship until September when he told me that he wanted to strengthen his marriage, but having contact with me was too distracting. We have been NC ever since. I respect his boundary; I even admire it.
As far as your LE goes, I’ve been reading the feedback that you’ve received from the LwL community: lots of good stuff! I’m particularly interested in hearing your response to MJ. He raised some great questions. Please don’t forget to get back to him.
One more thing, when Marcia pointed out that the cycles with your LO must be exhausting, I laughed out loud. She’s right! Interacting with someone who has BPD is exhausting! Ironically, it’s never boring.
Best wishes to you, Lost in Space!
Hi Lovisa,
good to hear from you! Still going strong with running and being admirably athletic?
I‘m sorry to hear about your sister but glad that there is a protective order and you cannot be responsible for her which is too much for a human being.
I also admire how your LO and you handle things and can part ways without resentment.
Happy new year to you!
It’s good to hear from you, too Mila! I read that your country is just as baffled by 6-7 as my country. It’s such a strange thing indeed!
I finished my last endurance race in October. My husband and I ran 50 miles together. It was incredible! For 2026, I changed my training to strength, mobility and speed so I’m not accumulating as many miles as I did in the past. I want to be more competitive at short distances. At this point, my longest runs in 2026 will be a half-marathon in which I hope to complete in under 2 hours and I’ll be pacing my SO at his 100-miler which will probably be 31 miles for me. It’s a step down from 2025 when I did 4 official ultra marathons and one unofficial ultra marathon spontaneously during a training run. Thanks for asking!
Thanks for your kind words and well-wishes!
Happy New Years!
Hi MJ (and everyone else who’s asked about my relationship with my SO):
I guess this is the hardest question for me to answer, or at least give an answer that I feel good about. Because if you’d told me anytime in the past that I’d end up being a guy who had a multi-year emotional affair behind my wife’s back I’d have been horrified, but now here I am… so how did I get here?
First off, I know it sounds really hard to believe, but I really do love SO a lot and love being married to her and our marriage really is in a good place, better than it’s been in years, and I always want to be married to her. I know it’s pretty commonly believed that it’s impossible to be in love with 2 people at the same time, because if you fall in love with someone new it means you don’t really love the first person anymore – and in the past I might have believed that myself but now I can say from my own life experience that for me anyway, that just isn’t the case . For several years now, I’ve had strong feelings and a close connection with LO, and also am very deeply in love with SO.
I think I’m naturally very good at compartmentalization. It’s something that’s served me well in my career – I can spend my day going from one patient to the next, often dealing with really difficult and emotional conversations and topics, and have always been very much able to focus all of my mental and emotional attention on the person I’m in the room with at that moment. I can spend 20 minutes with a long-time patient whose daughter just died and grieve with them and cry with them and hug them, and then walk out of the room, write my little note, and then walk into the next room with a new mom and her new baby and celebrate and be joyful with her, and then go into the next room and hear someone tell me about the trauma of being homeless and addicted to drugs and wanting to die, and then go to the next room and congratulate someone for quitting smoking and getting their diabetes under control, and so on and so on, 20 times per day 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, and then at the end of each day go home and be fully present with my kids and my SO .
And so my experience has been that it’s the same with SO and LO – when I’m with SO, I’m fully with her and I’m not thinking about LO, and when I’m with LO I’m fully with her (although I guess I’m still thinking about SO enough to not cross certain lines with LO), and I’m not saying that’s a good thing and it may actually be a harmful and destructive thing in the long run, but it’s my experience, and it’s what’s kept my relationship with LO from lessening my love for SO or harming our relationship.
That said, it doesn’t justify it morally and ethically. If I really truly love my SO as much as I believe I do, how could I possible betray her in such a huge manner? I wonder that myself fairly often, and I can’t really justify it to myself, not deep down. But I’m able to justify it to myself on the surface by using utilitarian ethics, the idea that outcomes are the only thing that make an action ethical or unethical… and then I guess I avoid inspecting myself too deeply.
I do ask myself a lot if my actions are harming SO or not, and I really do believe that they are not. I’m really sweet and loving and affectionate and kind to her, and it’s not an act – it’s the way I truly feel with her. I love spending time with her and talking to her and doing things with her and being affectionate with her and that’s genuine and she feels it and by any possible measure she’s really happy with our relationship and with me and she feels loved and valued and cared about.
I’m also really careful not to steal time from SO in order to give it to LO. It’s not fair to SO if, for example, she’s stuck doing extra work around the house because I’m busy helping LO with her homework or stayed at work late to talk with LO on the phone. So I’ve always been really big on stealing my LO time only from myself – that means that basically any time I spend with LO or working on things for her is made up for by working through my breaks and waking up early to do extra work, rather than taking it from my shared time with SO. This certainly has the potential to be detrimental to myself, but I’m the only person it should be detrimental to – so if I end up a little sleep deprived sometimes or miss out on some “me time”, then I’m ok with that.
But then, there’s the other big argument – what if SO found out? Let’s say (and maybe you do or don’t believe this) that nothing about my relationship with LO takes anything away from SO and our relationship, that as long as everything stays secret there truly is no harm to SO. But wouldn’t SO be devastated if she found out? Of course she would, and rightfully so! And is it even worth taking the chance? Because no matter how careful I am, no matter how much I trust myself not to mess up and forget to delete a text, no matter how much I trust LO not to mess something up (unintentionally or even intentionally), there’s still a non-zero chance of SO finding out someday. That should be enough to stop me in my tracks, right? It’s like, is my relationship with LO so important and so wonderful that it’s worth taking a risk on the relationship and person that is most important to me? It’s like having your dream job and then embezzling money from your company, knowing that the money you’re stealing isn’t really necessary to you but that if you get caught you’ll lose your career and go to prison, and yet you do it anyway.
I guess what it really comes down to is that I just can’t make myself believe that outcome will happen. Intellectually I know it could, but I just can’t believe in it enough to make myself cut off the relationship with LO. I’m like the person who knows that drinking might kill them someday, but that day seems far off in the future and they love drinking, so they keep doing it for now – maybe they’ll quit next week or next month. Or instead of drinking, substitute smoking, or eating junk food, or driving too fast or whatever. A pretty high percentage of humans engage in one or more behaviors that they know might end up costing them dearly some day, but they keep doing it because the behavior provides tangible rewards right here and right now, while the cost seems far off in the future and may or may not even happen, and our minds are really good at blocking out or minimizing bad future things in order to protect the behaviors that bring us pleasure right now. And we can construct narratives to protect that illusion… “as long as I don’t drink and drive it’ll be ok” or “as long as I don’t actually have sex with LO it’ll be ok”…
Anyway, I’m not saying that any of this is right or justifiable or anything like that, but it’s the most honest assessment I can give of what keeps me on this track for so long. Please poke it full of holes my friends 🙂
Thank you for the long reply LIS. I’m not going poke it full of holes either. It’s easy to see you have well covered all (or most of) your tracks here and have convinced yourself that a negative outcome is out of the equation. Or so far out of the realm of possible right now, that you refuse to even entertain the slight thought of it. It’s not my place to tell you how to live out your marriage. You are the one that has to live with this.
I guess I can also see how your line of work causes you to have to shift your mindset in dealing with People and all their joys and sorrows. Perhaps this is just easy for you given what empathy like that requires. That probably took some getting used to in your field. I commend you for that. I know I couldn’t do it..
My Exes Doctor took a very personal approach with her and us, when our now oldest son was in-utero years ago and was diagnosed with what they thought then would be very serious consequences if he were actually born. It was this very personal approach that he took with us, during a very dramatic time, that made the experience just way more tolerable. I can look back on that time and say that having him, his professionalism on my Wife’s side at the time, no doubt made all the difference in the world to her. When he would come and talk to me, he also took the time to be man to man about it, and in a way that was very empathetic and easy to understand. This Doctor was also a primary reason my Wife wanted another Baby a few years later, because she loved being under this Doctors care. I totally understand why. So I think I understand where you are coming from when it comes to your line of work. You are probably very good at what you do. Again, my hats off to you..
The thing that gets me is that was 25 years ago. If you had told me then, that in the next 25 years I will be divorced, my Mother will die and my Father will succumb to Parkinsons, I would have never believed you. Nothing like that ever crossed my mind. I wasn’t going out of my way thinking about it either. I was a young Father, with a Son with a disability. My Daughter was born a few years later. I was addicted to porn and strip clubs and lust in every lurid form you could think of. Like a functioning alcoholic but maybe worse. I thought I had it under control but I didn’t. I was filled with rage and it showed. My Wife suffered the brunt of what I was doing to myself every day and night and a lot of it she always suspected but I always denied it. We fought and yelled, broke things and even dealt with the Police. There were years of hell, but there were also good years too. Many as a matter of fact. Our house could be very peaceful and warm. Having ocd helped. We literally had the nicest looking lawn on the block. My grass and landscaped yard was always the crowning achievement to our home. I wouldn’t even let our kids play on that grass. (At least in the front yard.) My Wife hated that. Yes we fought about it now and then too.
Guess what I’m trying to say again is, 25 years goes by really fast. Never thought it would be just my Father, my prescription-med addicted Aunt, (who never shuts up) and myself at Christmas dinner just last year. There are no more big family gatherings for me. No more excited kids unwrapping their gifts. No more waiting till they go to sleep on a cold Christmas night, so my Wife and I could sit down by the fireplace with our hot-chocolate, cuddle a little and then open the presents we got for each other. We looked forward to that special time together each year. Our little Hallmark movie moment. 🎬
You can say you have it all under control but deep down you know.. I kept an immaculate yard, put on the facade of being a loving husband and caring Dad and yet inside I was dying every day and killing my marriage. I could justify it by saying I wasn’t cheating because I was staying at home at night for awhile. But I was really getting heavy into what I was looking at online. When that wasn’t enough, Strippers became my go-to. When that wasn’t enough, my own sister-in-law became a conquest. I mean I sank hard Dude..
And the whole time, I told myself I loved my Wife. I told my Wife that I loved her. But did I?? Not if I’m out with her Sister or whoever, trying to get her drunk, so I can play dirty later on.. Not if I’m putting my attention on any other thing or person(s) besides my Wife.
I have been a poster person for failure as a Husband and Father. I have lived a lot in 25 years and these days I can’t even really find a Woman that would like to sit down and even have a simple cup of coffee with me. You’d think I was joking but it really is literally that bad over here for me today. Perhaps you’ve maybe read some of my bs story in the forum for the last year or so. It’s ok if you haven’t. Marcia has and been coaching me as best she can, but I’m a big dumb Oaf. Not like its front page news, but I can’t seem to get it together still. I may never.
I may not have played my cards as well and as smooth as you have. Infact I don’t even want to believe I could. I don’t think I have the emotional bandwidth anymore. What I do have is regret. A f–k ton of regret. Regret for not making my Wife first and foremost. The only person I vowed to grow old with. Kudos that you haven’t stepped off into that nasty PA world of fake love and confusion with LO. I’m glad you haven’t but I honestly couldn’t do it man. Couldn’t hold back because I know I’d be hittin it and hittin it hard.
Maybe you want to but know it will just rise to next level affair. Either way, with the amount of concern and detail you go to, to be there for LO feels almost worse. It’s just straight up unfair to SO and I think you know it. Maybe if it wasn’t all so rosy rainbows and Hallmarky, in the way you write it out, but I don’t know. That just seems worse to me. Deep down I’d villify myself. Plus I’m terrible at hiding my tracks.
There is Manager at work who triggers me every now and then. She is very friendly, attractive and has a smile that knocks me out every time she says hello to me. I want to talk to her but I know she’s married. She wears a nice big ring on her finger. I think about how I’d like to get to know her better.
But then I think about it. The drama, the lies. 25 freaking years of lies, deception and all out just being a fraud. I can’t do it. I just can’t.. I won’t bring another Woman down. I won’t be unfair. To her or the life she’s made for herself..
Is it any wonder, my limerence isn’t some sort of retribution? It’s just more fallout from every past failure. Now look at me..
Well don’t..
I wouldn’t look at me either.. 😑
Good luck LIS. Seriously..
I wish you the best man.
Hi Lovisa,
wow, it’s so inspiring.
Surely this active lifestyle helped you with all the negative sides of limerence and with the challenges of your sister. I feel myself that sport lifts my spirits, especially cardio. I’m not competitive at all, I don’t want any stress or performance pressure outside work, but I love to move and use my body.
I wish I could spend more time on it more regularly. Actually I’ve managed quite well since summer, but for example this week I had to decide to get on with work instead of hitting the gym a couple of times, and there is a busy spell ahead where I’m afraid I have to take this decision a few more times.
I wish you luck for your half-marathon and other races! Maybe it’s a good idea to take it a bit more easy, 5 ultramarathons on one year sounds a bit straining?
Hi LiS and MJ,
your posts touched me both a lot and got me thinking about them a lot.
It‘s easy to look on some stories from the outside or even at one’s own past from the present and judge what is right or wrong.
LiS’s story always gets me to this general question, a bit related to Schroeders cat – if SO doesn’t know and is genuinely happy, is it a true happy life or is it a lie? If she finds out, will it negate the whole happiness she had for years? (it will in her mind probably, but does it really? Happiness is happiness, no?)
What sits a bit wrong with me is, as I said in my post before, that you claim that everyone involved is happy, with undertones of „I make everyone involved happy“. You only can speak for yourself. It would sit better with me if you admitted a bit that it makes mainly you happy, that you want your cake and eat it and that you do it for yourself. I mean, it’s still a strong reason.
It could very well be that your LO would have managed to get rid of that SO of hers and her unhappy job long ago without this LE, by her own will and power, who knows, and she would be much happier without these emotional cycles, who knows?
Equally it could be that your SO would be as happy as now or better without this LE.
One cannot know, so you cannot really claim that you do the best for everyone. You do the best for yourself, period, and of course while you are doing that, you try the best you can to make everyone happy, but as a sub to that you are doing what YOU want.
I apologize immediately because of course you didn’t claim that in so many words, but I feel it a little bit in your words. Maybe I’m wrong. I think it might be what got to MJ a bit- you seem to have sorted it out for everyone, but you have only sorted it out for yourself, and that’s ok and understandable, and it’s still admirable how you manage to give your full attention to everyone and are there for everyone. It’s just that you cannot really speak for your SO‘s and LO‘s happiness or wellbeing or choices, only for your own.
I might be too blunt again, but if someone can be blunt to you, then an anonymous person in an Internet forum, and you can just shrug it off if you like.
I still wish you only the very best because I know that you‘ve a good heart and mean well.
Of course I meant Schrödinger‘s cat, not the one of the German ex-chancellor
Hi Marcia,
But am I really “not available”? Yes and no, right? On one hand, obviously I’m not available for the whole meal deal. But on the other hand, I’ve been very consistently available for a warm, caring, connected relationship where we talk daily and share really deeply with each other and support each other through a lot of difficulties and and care about each other a lot, and I’m always there for her in any way I can be, and this goes on for years… I mean, that’s maybe not “enough”, but it’s also not nothing, right? And it must certainly be enough to trigger attachment issues, I think. I don’t think attachment theory only applies to monogamous romantic/sexual/life partner relationships, but applies to any significant relationships in a person’s life.
And then, there’s the fact that, well, sometime people in our situation do end up having full blown affairs or even changing partners. We’ve both always been clear with each other that we won’t, but “won’t” isn’t necessarily the same as “can’t” or “don’t want to”. And I think (actually I know), that at least some of the time she does get carried away with fantasizing about us being a real couple (and maybe it goes on in her head a lot more than she’d like to admit) – and then I think that triggers a lot of fear and guilt for her as well and triggers the sudden withdrawals as well.
As for the last question, yes it can be a lot drama sometimes, and yes I do often feel exhausted and frustrated and wonder why I persist. At the same time, there have actually been a lot of times when our relationship was relatively drama free and not frustrating and actually just really nice and rewarding. I think my previous writing left out the fact that in between the hot and cold phases, there are actually usually a lot of nice “warm but not too intense” times.
If you were to write out the events of our cycle “start talking” -> “warm close friendship with occasional expressions of affection” -> “affection starts building too much” -> “shutdown, pain, distance” -> “start talking again”, and then record the amount of time spent in each stage of the cycle of the past 3 years, I think it’d come out to something like 1.5-2 years in the “warm close friendship” stage, 3-6 months in the “getting too close/intense” stage and 9-12 months in the shutdown phase.
So that means that overall we’ve had something like 18-24 months of low drama time where we actually just really enjoyed each other and everything felt pretty good. Is it worth the other times in the high drama/high pain stages? So far it has been. Will it always be? Hard to say I guess… I’ve noticed that in the past year, the allocation of time within the cycles has changed, with more time in the bad parts and less time in the good. Is that a permanent shift as she becomes overall more and more deeply unsettled by our relationship? Or does it reflect her stress and burnout in her last year of school and maybe in the future we’ll go back to how things were during the best of times when we mostly just enjoyed each other (within the boundaries we’d established). I guess for now don’t really know – I kinda suspect that it’s the former but who knows.
Anyway, I gotta go for now, but I do have a couple more thoughts about the mental health stuff for later… and please do be blunt with me, at least it makes me think about things differently sometimes
LiS
You told me not to hold back … 🙂
“But am I really “not available”?””
I’m sorry. I laughed out loud at this question. Do you not have an SO? That makes you unavailable. You can’t be all in if you have an SO. You can’t offer anything but a partial situation. And that is perfect for a fearful avoidant. The only thing that might trigger her that I can think of is if she wants a lot more from you (a PA or for you to leave your SO) and you won’t do it. Or you want a lot more from her than she’s willing to give. But that would be an end to things. Not a back and forth. So I don’t understand her behavior. And if someone pulled back … by the second time, I’d stop trusting them.
Haven’t you had a conversation with her about it? (Maybe you wrote about it and I missed it.) You write you’ve had periods of close friendship. As in: Why do you sometimes pull back? Or: What are we doing here? What’s going on between us?
If you haven’t, I might wonder that maybe you didn’t want to know. But a lot of limerents seem to be able to stay in limbo for a long time. 🙂
Lost_In_Space,
Some thoughtful and hard-hitting responses from Marcia, Mila and MJ. I was especially touched by MJ’s story.
There’s something else about your story that troubles me. You say that you’re good at compartmentalising, and I’m sure a lot of us here can relate to that. A lot of us are here on this forum because we have developed feelings for someone other than a partner who we love. You seem to be at peace with this, and happy with the situation.
But from what you say, it seems that your LO is less good at compartmentalisation, is troubled by her feelings for you, and it is causing her pain. This results in her push-pull behaviour, which I think this is a more honest and rational response to the situation than yours, but you have interpreted it as Borderline Personality Disorder! I think this shows a lack of respect for her. Since your close relationship with her is causing her pain, the most loving thing you could do for her would be to make an effort to end it and revert to being purely platonic friends. As it is, I feel as though you keep crossing boundaries in order to keep her wanting you, even though you have nothing to offer her.
Now, you could well turn around and say she is treating you the same. That is true. She is also a grown up, and she is also doing this to you. But you are only responsible for your behaviour, not hers.
Hi Cloud,
Not butting in but just delivering information, the diagnosis of BPD isn’t from LiS, she got it diagnosed herself, if I remember it right.
Hi Cloud and Mila,
Yes, the BPD diagnosis is a real diagnosis, not a label I put on her as a pejorative. She and I have talked about it a lot – she was pretty upset when she was first diagnosed, but eventually found it really helpful to understand why she feels the way she feels and does the things she does. She’s gotten a lot out of learning about other peoples’ experiences living with BPD and it’s made her feel less like “there’s something terribly wrong with me” and more like “I have a condition that makes life really hard sometime but it’s not my fault, I didn’t choose it, and there’s things I can do to make it better”.
I’ve done a lot of learning about BPD these past years as well – she and I even worked on a presentation together about it for one of her classes, and I’ve done a lot of reading and learning to try to understand how to be a good support person. That doesn’t mean I always get it right – obviously there’s been plenty of times I’ve messed up and ended up making her feel distressed instead of supported, and helped to destabilize her rather than be a rock for her. But I do honestly believe that I’ve provided a lot of support for her as well, and that my ongoing presence for all this time hopefully does mean something valuable for her – if nothing else I think it’s valuable for her to see that someone sees her as a person of value who is worth sticking around for.
I think it’s really natural to vilify and demonize people with BPD, and it’s totally understandable that Cloud you would take it as an insult and rush to LO’s defense when you saw that term mentioned. BPD is probably the most stigmatized mental health condition out there. Surveys show that even health professionals, who should know better, stigmatize it more than any other conditions.
My LO has the subtype of BPD called quiet BPD, which is different than, say, Lovisa’s sister who maybe has a more impulsive/aggressive subtype. For LO, most of her BPD related symptoms are directed inward and she’s her own primary target. Sometimes the people close to her catch strays, but she’s mostly at war with herself. She has an unstable sense of self, very tenuous self worth, high fear of abandonment, mood instability, and a tendency to become paranoid while under stress. It’s not how she wants to be and not something she chose – it’s likely mostly the result of a really chaotic and abusive upbringing, and I’ve always been really proud of how she’s lived her life in spite of all of her internal battles – raising 3 great kids, helping a lot of people in her career, pursuing her education despite lots of barriers, never giving up on herself…
I’ve read a lot about how to be a good support person for someone with BPD. At my best, I’m able to be a steady presence who keeps showing up despite the ups and downs, backs off and gives space when necessary, and remains calm and positive in the face of changing moods and unstable ways of relating. Unfortunately, I fall short of that sometimes as well, and my own feelings and insecurities and anxieties get ahold of me and I say and do things that make her feel worse or destabilize her further, and I know I need to do better. She also does things to trigger and provoke me – for example she’ll tell me about how she appreciates how much I’m always there for her and I tell her I always will be, and then she says she doesn’t understand why anyone would want to stay close to her because she’s such a terrible person and I tell her that I think she’s a beautiful person and I love her for who she is, and then she gets triggered and shuts down (that’s a sort of abbreviated version of what happens but that’s the gist of it)
My goal for the rest of the time we know each other is to be steady and friendly and supportive without being overly romantic or affectionate or anxious or insecure – regardless of what I feel inside I need to regulate my words and my actions to be a supportive friend without trying to be anything more than that. That’s what she wants me to be and that’s what I want to be and can feel good about, and it’s going to take a lot of self regulation and self discipline but I think I can do better.
Lost_In_Space,
I think I worded my post badly and I’m sorry to have upset you. Part of it is my prejudice about BPD, because it’s an awful name for a genuine condition, and I should have known better, since several people around me have ADHD which I think is pretty badly named too. I take on board what you and Mila say that it’s a diagnosed condition that she has, not a label you’ve given her.
What was troubling me, and what still troubles me, is that you were ascribing her push-pull behaviour to her condition, when from reading your descriptions, I think this behaviour can be fully explained by your relationship with her and I think many people would behave in that way towards someone with whom they had an extra-marital romantic attachment.
Your goal of being a supportive friend without the romance is an excellent one.
Hi Cloud and LiS
please correct me if I’m wrong,LiS, but if I got it right, the unsettling thing was that she drew completely back without any explanation like „it‘s too close for me, I need space“ or anything, she just suddenly ghosted him and denied it at the same time. Otherwise (with some short text as explanation) I would totally agree, Cloud, that it’s understandable behavior, but this kind of not taking responsibility but just being suddenly offline was a bit odd. I have no experience of BPD at all, so cannot join in there.
I personally think, the way LiS describes to stay there for her without crossing borders of affection or emotion, is at the moment the only way to go. Hats off if you succeed until she flies away, so to say. Every other way will lead to chaos or coldness, and in her current professional situation it might be detrimental to her if you for example withdraw your help suddenly, just as it would be if you both suddenly cross boundaries you haven’t crossed before.
I wish you both so much that it‘ll all end well.
“the way LiS describes to stay there for her without crossing borders of affection or emotion, is at the moment the only way to go.”
Sorry to throw leaves on the line … Mila, this solution sounds great in a ‘blue sky thinking’ way, but each of us knows very well that you can’t just squash those feelings of affection or emotion in a limerent. They go when they’re ready to go and not before. You mean, Mila, that LiS just has to not *act out* on those feelings of affection at all? I think I get it, if that’s what you mean.
LiS, do you think you can do that? I’ve had to be at my most resolutely ‘mind over matter’ possibly ever in life, to try not to act out with my LO for more than 2 years. Still, I know I have done it sometimes. But we’re undisclosed and there is still a veneer of plausible deniability. That’s where our situations differ, because I understand that yours is “out in the world”, i.e. that you and your LO are out in the open about the feelings and the EA between you.
LaR,
„You mean, Mila, that LiS just has to not *act out* on those feelings of affection at all?“
That’s what I mean, yes.
No doubt it’s difficult , but I can’t really see a viable alternative after such a long time of relying on each other emotionally and in her case professionally.
I mean, if they would end it all now, it would probably be a big inner turmoil for both, she doesn’t need that now. I‘m anxious for her to finish that school with good grades and get a better future (and, incidentally, get out of that unsolvable situation), and I‘m anxious for him not to risk his family, so veering to the other side (getting too emotional, risking physical stuff etc) is even worse for both.
I may be jumping the gun, but it seems like I have lost interest in LO almost overnight.
It was something he said to me that put me off. We were having a discussion about AIDS and he accused me of being “sensationalistic.” I was just being myself, and I felt as if he was telling me that “myself” is unacceptable to him.
I struggle with self-esteem, but I do think that I have a pleasant personality and I don’t see anything wrong with the way I express myself. I actually think that the way I talk is one of my best qualities.
This comes after repeated incidents of LO losing his temper with me over nothing, periodically over the last three years.
Maybe this is the straw that broke the camel’s back. Or maybe I’ll relapse again.
But I am enjoying the lack of longing. I am at going to take some comfort in the lack of pain I am experiencing.
Great news! Enjoy it. Even if there are relapses in future, you can look back to today and know that freedom is possible.
Dear Norma,
Cloud is right, even if you revert to former feelings, this is the start of recovering.
A song for you (a little more upbeat than the stuff Adam’s been sending 😆)
https://youtu.be/51OB2YoC4sg?si=p5SMUMA1lB9CCtTr
Have a sane 2026, all.
Bx
To Bewitched:
Thank you for that fabulous song. I can’t believe I am not familiar with it. I should know it, but I don’t. 1978? I was very into music at that time.
I appreciate you thinking of me.
Hi Norma,
I‘ve had several small incidents like that during the final phase of my last limerence. I examined and turned them over and over and felt a bit stupid or negative to put so much weight on such small stuff. But they were the stepstones out of the glorification of LO and my connection to LO, and small moments of utter truth, a glimpse of clear sight on his flaws and my bias.
I remember particularly LO showing a certain degree of insensitivity towards a guest in his house. I ruminated over that again and again and felt it was somewhat freeing (is there a word like that?)
Might be that with his next friendly gesture or talk feelings return, but I think you would still be one step further out of limerence.
To Mila:
Yes! “Freeing” is a great word. LO actually just texted me and asked if I wanted to get together. I have the flu so I turned him down.
I think it’s the first time I have ever turned him down.
Get well soon Norma!
Hydrate a lot, drink ginger tea and if he asks about your flu tell him not to be sensationalistic.
To Mila:
Ha! You made me laugh out loud.
January
Helen Hunt Jackson
O Winter! frozen pulse and heart of fire,
What loss is theirs who from thy kingdom turn
Dismayed, and think thy snow a sculptured urn
Of death! Far sooner in midsummer tire
The streams than under ice. June could not hire
Her roses to forego the strength they learn
In sleeping on thy breast. No fires can burn
The bridges thou dost lay where men desire
In vain to build.
O Heart, when Love’s sun goes
To northward, and the sounds of singing cease,
Keep warm by inner fires, and rest in peace.
Sleep on content, as sleeps the patient rose.
Walk boldly on the white untrodden snows,
The winter is the winter’s own release.
Dawn
Helen Hunt Jackson
With a ring of silver,
And a ring of gold,
And a red, red rose
Which illumines her face,
The sun, like a lover
Who glows and is bold,
Wooes the lovely earth
To his strong embrace.
New Year’s Morning
Helen Hunt Jackson
Only a night from old to new!
Only a night, and so much wrought!
The Old Year’s heart all weary grew,
But said: “The New Year rest has brought.”
The Old Year’s hopes its heart laid down,
As in a grave; but, trusting, said:
“The blossoms of the New Year’s crown
Bloom from the ashes of the dead.”
The Old Year’s heart was full of greed;
With selfishness it longed and ached,
And cried: “I have not half I need.
My thirst is bitter and unslaked.
But to the New Year’s generous hand
All gifts in plenty shall return;
True love it shall understand;
By all my failures it shall learn.
I have been reckless; it shall be
Quiet and calm and pure of life.
I was a slave; it shall go free,
And find sweet peace where I leave strife.”
Only a night from old to new!
Never a night such changes brought.
The Old Year had its work to do;
No New Year miracles are wrought.
Always a night from old to new!
Night and the healing balm of sleep!
Each morn is New Year’s morn come true,
Morn of a festival to keep.
All nights are sacred nights to make
Confession and resolve and prayer;
All days are sacred days to wake
New gladness in the sunny air.
Only a night from old to new;
Only a sleep from night to morn.
The new is but the old come true;
Each sunrise sees a new year born.
Hi MJ,
Damn, that was some of the most honest, raw, vulnerable writing I’ve ever read. I don’t know what to say except thank you for caring enough about me to write to me like that, and I really really hope that life has good things in store for you in the coming chapters.
I read your post yesterday morning before work and it was sobering for sure… for the first time in awhile I found myself hoping to NOT see LO or have any contact with her during the day. And then as I was getting to work I saw her walking into her office, just caught a glimpse of her for a couple seconds from 50 feet away, and I was filled with the most intense feeling of longing and wanting. And then later that morning talked with her on the phone for a few minutes, purely about some work things, but the sound of her voice and her laugh… I could listen to that all day.
I know that it would be very good for me if she ends up leaving our workplace in the next few months.
My Brother
Last week, drunk (I know surprise, surprise) I decided to journal about what I was feeling to avoid hitting up LO’s social media. I didn’t hide it, but I didn’t leave it out in the open. When I got home from work the next day, I’d seen it had been moved. I picked it up off the chair and sat down to read what my wife wrote. She basically said if I want to leave for her then just leave.
I had to read again what I wrote, because I didn’t remember what I wrote down. I didn’t tell her I saw and read what she wrote that night. I wasn’t ready because I didn’t know if I did want to leave or not. I have no dignity with her. I’d be fine to be the “friendzoned” guy just to see her again. In my heart I know when I try to pretend that I am over her, I am not. And I know soon Momma will have enough of this. I do the “right” thing by not contacting her, but my thoughts of her have never really slowed down.
I get what you are telling LiS and it resonates with me too. The justification is that I am not “cheating”. I maintain NC. I have weak moments where I check her social media but that is rare now. And I don’t ever post or comment. The stability of a faithful woman that puts up with the $hit that is being married to a man, is very comforting and pleasant. I actually felt good by cooking dinner and distracting myself from my idle hands. I cooked it all up from scratch and served Momma in bed so she wouldn’t have to get up. (Her appointment with her primary care physician on her head injury is Thursday.)
There’s this song (Nobody by Sylvia) I recently discovered and there is one line in it that really speaks to me; “I asked whose on your mind, you said nobody why do you ask, oh her again I could have told you that”. I feel like every time Momma looks at me she’s wondering that about me. And I guess I don’t blame her. I’ve done damage. She may not have packed her bags ….. yet. But there will be a breaking point if I cannot do this.
I had what seemed to be a very disconnected moment at first but it wasn’t. I asked our youngest son to help me with something on an online game that I couldn’t do myself. He helped me through it and I got the item for my game I was looking for. I told our son thank you. I turned to Momma and said, you did good with him. She said, WE did good with him. That was before I cooked dinner. I thought about it in the kitchen, and I know she raised our boys because I was always gone with my job(s). She is a damn good woman and she deserves better than some love sick puppy jumping in someone else’s lap willingly.
Oh Adam I thought you were doing better. Please tell me that you’re just having a setback?
My Brother Adam,
Your cooking of her meal, and her appreciation of it, as well as the way you’ve raised your son, suggest to me that she’s not going to leave. Let that be your comfort, and please stop beating up yourself.
Have a wonderful New Year.
Cloud I hope that it is just a setback. We got/are in the middle of a lot of changes at home causing a lot of stress and anxiety for us all involved. It’s been that way since the end of October. But there is progress being made and I think when I am idle it gives time for my mind to wander. So I try to keep busy in making more progress. At first it looked like I would never see the light, on the progression of this project but now I can see it.
CatCyclist, I meant I am not sure if I do want to leave or not. I know she’s married now and all, and has a new life, but I would still like to be a part of it. When my wife wrote “if you want to leave for her than just leave” I think she is still worried that my desire for her company is romantic and/or sexual. It’s not. But I get that it feels threatening to her. The closest thing in the past I have had to a true female friend was way back when we were only 2-3 years into our marriage. In fact this friend was my first ever Facebook friend request. I haven’t talked to her in many years but we had some great times together. Similar to LO she was divorced with children. Hers were just much older than LO’s.
Brother,
I saw this a few days ago. I meant to get back to you but I’ve become overwhelmed on this end. With going back to work this week and with Dad. I didn’t want to give a rushed reply, so thats why I am delayed. You are in my thoughts and I’ll get back to you when I can give this the time it deserves. Stay strong my Friend..
Brother
I’m glad that my words to LIS resonate with you but I am sorry things seem to not be going your way on your end.
I write like I do to make a point, that philandering around can have consequences. Even if its centered on good intent without the sex. Like so many of us, we hold our LOs in very high regard. For you and LIS, I suppose its a whole different ballgame because you both have Wives to go home to. Whereas I’m coming home every night to my Daughter’s Goldfish. My rants to LIS probably get old but I get so irritated about my past and all the stupid $#!+ I was doing. None of those relationships/conquests I had ever panned out and even if I was enjoying myself then, I wasn’t forseeing the possibility of what things would look like once my Wife had enough. Granted we had our issues. But when I look at my life now, never in a million years did I think I could feel so alone and depressed as often as I do now. That my options would be so few and that my anxiety levels would be off the charts. I’m emotional over everything. Often overwhelmed with my Fathers issues. Then feeling like I have no companion to ever talk to about any of it. Ever.. It’s maddening quite often but it must be God’s plan. It’s no wonder I have limerent tendencies but I hate having them. I wouldn’t want these feelings for even my worst enemies.
The only thing that off-sets all of this is my work. Which has become my escape. Often I just dive in there to get away. LO is there. I am often hopeful I will see her but I never do. Maybe in the parking lot now and then, but even that is rare. My other Lady Friends are there every night. A cute Manager I like to be friendly with works my shift and its all mediocre at best. It’s still not perfect, but its like the only thing I don’t mind doing. My job affords me a living way better than I deserve, so I’m grateful to God every day. Grateful for my Ex GF that helped in getting me this job. Grateful I can send my Daughter to a good college because of this job. I try to remember these good things but that all gets lost when I start feeling down. I complain often about not getting that cup of coffee with someone but its true. Nobody wants to share coffee with MJ.. Not even Marcia.. 😆
The best advice I think I can give you now is, please be careful about any expectation you think you will get from being in LOs life again. In whatever capacity. Its certainly not wrong to want to be her Friend, but are YOU really going to be just about friendship? Are you willing to possibly end your marriage over this gamble? There is the possibility your insistence on being around LO might be unwanted or unnecessary. True I don’t know her and could never make that call. Yet I would be willing to bet any expectation you have will go way different than what you’d like to see happen and then what have you got left? I mean I had way higher expectations of LF. We got to be really good work buds and yes I was crushing pretty hard on her, but then she knew I was. Which she said she never needed to know. I never thought or considered we’d devolve to almost being strangers again, but my comfort level with her was way more than she ever wanted. It was this comfort level that cringed her out. Keep in mind I already had disclosed once, lost her friendship, got it back, improved it, then got too comfortable again and lost it. Her and I still talk but its rare. I’m pretty sure she doesn’t hate me but she certainly doesn’t like me like she once did.. Add that to my long list of regrets. There is no guarantee with anybody.
Brother
That is good advice. I think God may have sent you here not just for your own good, but for mine too. So I don’t foolishly make the same mistakes. Though, I’ve certainly made my share of foolish mistakes. Just not when it comes to women up until LO. I am certain God sent Momma to me, to save me from the bottle.
Your comments remind me of something I just read this morning looking at my notifications on youtube on a video I watched “if someone pulls away like this, they are emotionally attached”
My comment:
“I’ve wondered if I was too much for her and that’s why she put distance between us. Did she not know I just wanted to be friends? But still stays silent after all these years. In a world with more communication available than ever she still stays silent. Was it something I said or did? I know she felt safe enough to share things with me I know she hadn’t/wouldn’t with others. But I continue to respect her silence and wait if I ever see/talk to her again.”
Someone’s reply to my comment
“Maybe being “just wanted to be friends” was too much for her, maybe she couldn’t do “just friends” so staying away is best for her. Especially if she thought that you were showing her more than “just friends” with your actions/words/emotions towards her. Maybe if you’re still wondering why her silence or distance is still there, maybe there was more and you weren’t able to admit it and she knew it? Just a thought.”
That made me think maybe I am still chasing closure? But as Dr L so famously says “what would you do with that information if you got it?” I honestly probably don’t want it. Because, like you said, things probably wouldn’t go the way that I am imagining in head. Sometimes I think I wish I’d never met her. But then, while there are plenty of memes about God sending someone in your life “for character growth”, I guess I still haven’t learned the lesson he’s trying to teach me.
Sir 🦎,
I just want to solute to your posts (twice…) to LiS, well done! 👏
Dear Bewitched,
Thank you so much for your always spot-on observations and terrific advice. In the back of my mind, and slowly coming to the forefront, I have understood most of the things that you say – for example, to “err on the side of your own sanity and composure when deciding how to respond to this reaching out from her,” … “it’s inevitable that younger ones appear for a short while, then disappear again, as they find their feet,” and lastly, “while this is very confusing and you need to figure it out, you ought to protect yourself at all costs.”
I’d like to clear up some things about the nature of our “mentor/mentee” relationship – it is not quite what you describe in your organization. I started using that term, as opposed to “friendship,” to give our 40-year age-gap relationship an aura of respectability. There was rarely any formal “mentoring” involved.
Just to give a recap, in the summer of 2023, I was introduced to four new summer interns – three male and one female (for context, our organization is STEM focused and highly male centric). The LO, the sole female in the group, was the only one who was extremely friendly to me; we quickly developed a mutual bond, to the near exclusion of everyone else. I should also mention that we have a common “brown” ethnicity in a sea of mostly white faces. Of course, I didn’t realize then that she was going to completely consume my thoughts for the next two and a half years, most of which were spent in limited or no contact. Also, we were in adjacent teams, as opposed to a single group in which we directly work with each other, and most importantly, there was never any supervisory relationship. We did, however, share an office – a medium sized cubicle farm.
Our next reconnection occurred during the next summer, eighteen months ago, when I retired from the organization. My own REAL “mentor”, with whom I had on and off contact in the fifteen years since he retired, had travelled two hours to be present at my retirement ceremony, in spite of suffering from cancer, and showered me with extraordinary praise when he spoke. This was followed by my LO, who told the whole world that I made her feel very welcome when she first arrived. This meant so much to me because I am very shy and suffer from social anxiety, especially around attractive women/girls. But the thing that really anchored my limerence was when she asked for a one-on-one photograph with me, as opposed to the usual group photos.
After my retirement, I soon started seeing a therapist, mostly to get over my LO, but also to improve my relationship with my wife. The therapist and I had decided that the best course of action was to go NC with LO, even though we had each other’s contact information. Six months later, just past New Year’s 2025, I lost my resolve and sent her a New Year’s greeting. We had a quick flurry of emails over the course of a week. She always ended her emails with questions, implicitly indicating that she wanted to continue the dialog. She never asked for any “help”, or anything work related. It was a friendship, plain and simple, not even resembling a mentor/mentee relationship. In our last exchange, as she was about to embark on an intercontinental, scientific expedition to a particularly scenic destination (an extracurricular one, not related to work), I said “send pictures”. That was twelve months ago, and she never did.
Fast forwarding six months, to July 2025, she has just returned as a full-time employee, and I have returned as a part-time, outside consultant. I did not expect to see her, since it was a huge organization, and I thought the probability of contact was vanishingly low. But when I first arrived at the office, I was pointed to a seat, and when I looked up, she was already sitting right next to me. What followed was a one-hour long conversation at a dizzying pace; the rest of the world had closed off. The look on her face was one of pure, unadulterated joy. Her phrasing was also unusual, with short gaps between sentences, as if she were trying to catch her breath. Just about three sentences in, without any prompting whatsoever, she said that she was going to send me the pictures as the next thing on her agenda, something she repeated a few times during that conversation. But after the conversation ended, the look on her face changed, and I knew that she wasn’t going to. She was putting the brakes on again, as I had also done for a large part of our relationship.
After two more months of essentially no contact, we had another totally absorbing conversation, as I showed her pictures from MY recent trip abroad. She took such a keen, undivided interest, even the parts that a normal person would have found boring. Again, I was quite shaken by the intensity of my reaction, and I decided to double down on the no contact strategy. I discussed with my therapist my terror at never hearing again from LO, especially after one of us eventually leaves the organization. She said, never say never. She was keeping hope alive, just as I was trying to squash it.
And then, on New Years Day just a week ago, the first thing I see when I wake up is a message from LO. Same as last year, but with the roles reversed. But I really don’t want a repeat this time.
Note that during the last six months, I had deleted all contacts and saved emails, stopped all social media and Google searches, and tried NC even if it killed me.
Returning to your message, Bewitched …
Even though the relationship between LO and me may not have been a genuine mentor/mentee one (for example, she has never asked for any assistance, work-related or otherwise, or had obvious ulterior motives), because of the age gap, I am going to treat it as one. That means the ideas you stressed – letting her do the reaching out, for example – still remain important. Apparently, from the tone of her emails, she thinks it is more of a friendship than anything else. But because of my still-intense feelings, in the interests of preserving my own sanity, I cannot treat it as a truly reciprocal friendship.
Bewitched, thank you so much for helping me to clarify my thoughts. And good luck to you on your own journey as well in the year ahead.
With some degree of muted interest, I was following the conversation amongst Serial, LaR, Adam, and Mila on the topic of whether limerence is something that limerents can successfully “contain”. I have a few general comments to add to the discussion which people might like to explore in future related discussions…
@Serial.
When you were having different limerent episodes, I’m curious how you defined those episodes to yourself? I.e. did you see limerence as something romantic?
@LaR.
I think once limerence has metamorphosed from “infatuation” into “person addiction”, it does more harm than good – until one finds a way to bring the person addiction back under control. I also suspect infatuation rarely becomes person addiction without tacit consent/heavy encouragement from LO. So I definitely understand people harbouring negative feelings toward their LOs! It’s almost like the LO chose to pour gasoline on the fire before walking away.
@Mila.
I find myself agreeing on an instinctual level with your understanding of limerence, because it jives with my own experience – that limerence isn’t something than can be contained (after a certain point). I think, after crystallisation, it does transform into an “all-or-nothing” sort of deal. If our brains can’t secure commitment from LO, then our brains sort of “go crazy”. 🙂
@Adam.
I think people may be able to “dabble” in limerence prior to crystallisation and post-dependency. (Early limerence and late limerence). However, it’s often a dangerous game to play, because there’s always the risk that one might be caught up in an undertow one didn’t see coming.
Hi Sammy,
I agree, we have a similar definition of limerence!
Although that now, the longer I’ve not been limerent for anyone, the more unsure I am if I can still imagine how it is to be limerent. I seem to lose the understanding of some behavior a bit (I mean a real, visceral understanding), while I know exactly that I was behaving the same in my limerent past…
Happy new year to you!
Yes, they were crushes. I’m also an introvert. It was harder in my youth, but over time I learned how to hide my feelings if they weren’t welcome or socially acceptable.
@MJ.
I’ve just read that you have no Greek inclinations, if you know what I mean. That’s very disappointing, my friend. What a letdown! A tiny part of me was hoping to keep you around as a last resort. Like, maybe when we’re both two hundred and fifty, we could contract a marriage of convenience, strictly for tax purposes? Separate bedrooms and separate fridges, of course. You’d still be allowed to visit strip clubs occasionally. Oh, and your pension fund can pay for everything. 🙂
Alas! Alas! Yet another of my pipe dreams, I fear. Even when you’re two hundred and fifty, I don’t think I could drag you away from Marcia and your other charming lady friends.
Speaking of charming ladies, out of all the people at LwL, don’t you think Marcia and Mila have the sweetest interactions? I love reading their comments. You know, the comments that are, like, always six words or less? But maybe I only read their comments when they’re not out in the streets brawling with each other? 😜
I see Marcia is still talking about flim-flam, flim-flammers, and flim-flammery. Oh gosh! Where have I heard those words before? Are we still all living in 2022 or something? Can’t wait until Dr. L releases a YT video called “The Bane of the Advanced Flim-Flammer”. I’d watch that video for the title alone. And Marcia, of course, would be obliged to sit through it, even though she hates to click on links.
I had a dream about my high school LO. In the dream, he somehow knew all about my limerence. He asked me the following: “Why didn’t you just tell me?”
I had no answer to LO’s question. The revelation also changed nothing. We stayed friends. He didn’t say he felt the same way. We didn’t embark on a torrid affair. Instead, I sat between his legs, and we watched TV together.
Sitting between his legs DID make me feel weirdly warm and fuzzy and euphoric. (I know this euphoria is simply my limerent brain’s last-ditch attempt at reinforcing romantic neural pathways it’s already formed over the years regarding LO). Finally, my LO asked me to get up and make him a cup of coffee. Then he told me I should make myself a cup of coffee while making him a cup of coffee.
Even my dreams about LO are depressingly domestic and shockingly devoid of action scenes or anything Marcia might actually enjoy reading. (Do you think I should throw in a few suggestive words just to keep her glued to the screen? Where’s my thesaurus of the world’s most titillating adverbs and tantalising adjectives?) 🙂
Happy New Year, everyone!
Sammy Sams,
“Can’t wait until Dr. L releases a YT video called “The Bane of the Advanced Flim-Flammer”. I’d watch that video for the title alone. And Marcia, of course, would be obliged to sit through it, even though she hates to click on links.”
OBLIGED TO SIT THROUGH IT? I should get some of the money for it from his YouTube channel! 🙂
By the way, “limerence limbo” is my term! I should have copyrighted that mofo! 🙂
“Even my dreams about LO are depressingly domestic and shockingly devoid of action scenes or anything Marcia might actually enjoy reading.”
OMG, I can’t sit through another post that goes on for 10 paragraphs that … wait for it … could have been condensed to ONE because … wait for it … there’s nothing happening! 🙂
“Do you think I should throw in a few suggestive words just to keep her glued to the screen?”
You had me at “suggestive words.” 🙂
BTW, you’ve been unusually brief in your posts lately. I mean, for you. 🙂
And your description of being a gay man witnessing a straight woman misunderstand your intentions because of your natural razzle dazzle/hubba bubba … has happened to every straight woman with a straight guy. 🙂
🎵
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
After reverie showers under Niagara Falls,
Humpty Dumpty bounced back to LwL Hall.
🎶
🎶
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
After reverie showers under Niagara Falls,
Humpty Dumpty bounced back to LwL Hall,
Throwing the fabulous flim-flammery Ball.
🎵
🎶
🎶
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
After the euphoric showers under Niagara Falls,
Humpty Dumpty bounced back to LwL Hall,
Throwing fabulous Flim-Flammery Balls.
🎵
Very nice if it wasn‘t so sad ..
“Life is a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel.”
― Jean Racine
“There is only one lesson life is trying to teach us – stfu and enjoy the view.” — Charles Bukowski
First off, Cloud, no worries at all, you didn’t upset me, but your post did just want to make me clarify the situation a bit. I’ve always felt the same, thinking that borderline personality disorder is a terrible name and contributes to the stigma. It’s one thing to say “you’re suffering from depression” – that feels like something external that someone is dealing with, whereas “you have a personality disorder” sounds a lot like saying “there’s something fundamentally wrong with you”. I mean, your personality is essentially who you are, right?
The best explanation I ever read is that personality is basically the set of patterns and behaviors that determine how we interpret and react to the things that happen in the world around us and how we relate to other people. It’s partially determined by genetics and partly by our experiences growing up. If I have a personality disorder, that means that the way I naturally interpret and react to events and other people ends up causing me a lot of distress and difficulties. It doesn’t mean that I’m a bad person or hopelessly damaged or broken – it means that I’ve internalized some patterns and behaviors that repeatedly cause problems for myself and others.
Most importantly, personality isn’t fixed for life. I think it’s pretty commonly believed that personality disorders are lifelong and can never change and it’s futile to even try (as opposed to something a depressive disorder or an anxiety disorder, which we tend to think of as more treatable and episodic, rather than constant and permanent). But in reality, I’ve learned that with consistent treatment, the majority of people with BPD achieve remission – meaning that they reach a place where their current symptoms don’t cause significant distress or impairment anymore. That’s pretty cool!
Ideally, a diagnosis should be thought of as helpful information. Not as a label or a stigma, and not as an unchangeable fate or destiny, but as helpful information that explains why things have happened in the past, what will likely happen in the future if nothing changes, and what can be done to improve outcomes in the future. For example, if I diagnosis someone with asthma, it’s not to say that “your lungs are defective and you’re inferior as a person” or “you will never be able to live as good of a life as someone without asthma” or “your asthma will always control you”. Rather, it provides explanation – “when you’re exposed to your triggers your airways tighten and you can’t breath”, prognosis – “without treatment, this will continue to happen frequently and likely will get worse over time”, and most importantly, a plan to change future outcomes – “if you use this inhaler twice a day and limit your exposure to your triggers, you can prevent most of the episodes where you can’t breath”.
Considering the diagnoses of someone you’re in relationship with (any sort of relationship) can be useful if it helps to explain recurrent patterns and offer guidance toward being a better partner. If I know my friend has asthma and I don’t want to trigger their asthma attacks, then maybe I’ll quit smoking around them and keep the window shut on high pollen count days. If my wife seems irritated and withdrawn for weeks, knowing that she has recurrent depression helps me to interpret that differently than “she must be upset with me or not love me anymore”. If one of my young kids has ADHD, I know I can’t tell them “clean your room”, walk away for an hour, and then get angry with them when I come back and their room is as messy as before but they’ve drawn three pictures, read two books, played with the cat and had a little dance party. Maybe I can tell my other kid without ADHD “clean your room” and come back and it’ll be done, but for my kiddo with ADHD I need to stay with them and offer guidance and encouragement until it’s done.
So in the case of LO, I do think about her diagnosis of BPD (and also what I’m certain is fearful avoidant attachment) as helpful information. It helps to interpret past events in a different way. As you all were discussing, some push-pull is to be expected in situations like this, but not necessarily in the extreme ways I’ve experienced with LO, where we’ll be chatting and happy together one day, absolutely nothing of significance happens that day, and then for the next several weeks she vanishes without a word and it’s like she’s a completely different person – and then sometimes reappears like absolutely nothing happened. It’s really baffling and unsettling, but incorporating the information about BPD and FA attachment shifts it from “she’s doing this to hurt me or mess with my head” to “she’s gets triggered by strong emotions she can’t control and it takes over her behavior and she literally can’t pick up the phone to text me ‘hey, sorry, I need to take some time away from you cuz I’m feeling overwhelmed’”. It also helps to explain some other things, like why she tends to get really paranoid when under stress (a common symptom of BPD) – she might be perfectly happy texting with me at work during weeks when she’s relatively relaxed, but as finals week approaches each semester and her stress levels rise, she gets super paranoid about someone discovering a text and she gets upset with me for sending the same text that would have been totally fine a month ago. That’s helpful information for me!
Most importantly, this information helps me to know how to behave to avoid triggering the reactions that both she and I want to avoid triggering. I need to stay steady, consistent, reassuring, warm but not intense, not be overbearing and not let my own anxiety make me push for closeness when she needs space. When her demeanor and behavior suddenly change dramatically, I need to stop taking it as a personal attack and just interpret it as information and react (or not react) appropriately.
I spent a little time with her yesterday at work. I came to her office to sign some papers and we chatted for a few minutes, and then later in the day she dropped some forms off at my office – she didn’t come in to chat, but it was the first time she’s even come near my office in three months. Both times, I observed that her body language was relaxed, she didn’t seem tense or anxious around me. She made prolonged eye contact, smiled warmly, laughed easily. Her nervous system was regulated and calm, and her amygdala is back to interpreting me as a safe person and not a threat. It felt nice – infinitely better than all of our recent encounters where I could see her shift into fight or flight mode the moment she saw me.
As you all were discussing, I can’t necessarily control my feelings in the coming months, but I can work really hard to control my words and my actions. My goal is to stay in the place we’re in now, where we can chat for a few minutes at work and everything feels warm and comfortable between us. It means not pushing for more closeness than that, because I know that more closeness will inevitably lead to more anxiety and eventually complete nervous system shutdown, and that’s really painful for both of us. And it means not taking the bait when she says or does little things to provoke me into saying inappropriate things – she has her ways of triggering me too, and I’m sure that at some point now that her anxiety is calmed down, she’ll start throwing out some lines here and there to check to see if she still occupies the same space in my mind as before. And hopeful I can navigate these next few months in a way that avoids any extremes of emotion for either of us and keeps things steady and consistent and safe.
Talking about verbosity … 🙄
You think this is bad, just imagine what it’s like inside my head! All day every day 😔
— The fruit of the LE behaviors and mindset…
Hi LiS,
Thanks for the explanation and insights!
When will the final exams take place and she‘ll be finished with school? Sorry if you wrote it somewhere, I’m very bad at locating posts on this site.
Since you know each other so well and can explain each others’ behavior to yourselves, maybe it‘ll work out fine even with her finals stress and your possible anxiety about her leaving.
Best of my wishes to you again.
Thanks Mila! She’ll finish her last semester in April and then has to pass some board exams and find a job, so probably like June or July at the earliest for her leaving. I’d like to think that me and her can keep things mellow between now and then. History suggests otherwise, but I’m gonna do my best with my own behavior, and maybe we’ve finally learned our lessons enough to break out of these cycles. The bad parts of the cycles really are extremely painful for both of us. We both would strongly prefer not to do it again.
@Adam.
I don’t really read the exchanges between you and MJ and other readers, because I don’t believe in invading other people’s privacy. However, sometimes I do quickly scan things to understand the general flow of LwL conversation. From scanning your comments and people’s responses to them, I think I understand why other readers have supposedly “crucified” you in the past. Your little limerent brain just doesn’t want to let go of hope, does it? 🤣😇😜
Also, I get the impression that you really want people to tell you you’re handsome. So here you go: you’re a handsome little bunny wabbit, you’re a handsome little bunny wabbit, you’re a handsome little bunny wabbit. Fabulous! Awesome! Terrific! Have we got the need to be complimented on looks out of our system yet? Can we move onto a different topic maybe? 🙂
I haven’t personally looked at your picture, but Mila has. I trust Mila and I’m taking Mila’s word at face value that you’re a handsome little bunny wabbit.
In some ways, Adam, you’re a lot like our mutual acquaintance who thinks she’s an extinct parrot or something. Her little soul oozes all this anger and argumentativeness. But she’s not oozing anger and argumentativeness because she’s a bad person. She’s oozing anger and argumentativeness because her little limerent brain doesn’t want to give up on hope. Also, she’ll twist things people say to her so they become signs of hope rather than neutral remarks, and that can sometimes make her irritating to be around. But that’s what limerence does, right? 🙂
@Mila.
Thank you for leaving me a comment. That was most gracious of you, my queen. As per usual, I didn’t bother to read it. Truth be told, I’m actually terrified of you. Your reputation for being simultaneously petty and fiery precedes you. And when I say “petty”, I mean “pretty”. And when I say “fiery”, I mean “ferociously intelligent”. 😊
Your interactions with Marcia are cute because there your softness and femininity come out, and it’s surprising to me that a woman of fifty still retains so much softness and femininity in her personality. And I think Marcia, being a highly feminine woman herself, can sort of jibe with you on the level that you’re both on. There’s a natural ebb and flow to your conversations.
I should apologise. I don’t think you and Marcia would ever brawl in the street over anything. Not over men anyway. Maybe over the last slice of gluten-free, dairy-free, fat-free, egg-free, sugar-free, flavour-free Christmas cake? 😉
@Marcia.
I know you have a love-hate relationship with MJ. Just let me know if you ever need me to drag him away – as in, like, literally drag him away. I think I have a spare wheelbarrow somewhere… 😁
@MJ.
I’m amused that everyone mentions you in their comments. Either you socialise like a maniac when I’m not around, or you’re this intensely lovable soul that everyone wants to lean on as a source of moral support. I suspect the former. 🙂
Sammy S,
“I know you have a love-hate relationship with MJ. Just let me know if you ever need me to drag him away ”
That time is now. 🙂
Let me know when you’re going to do it … I want to watch. 🙂
@Marcia.
Oh dear! You caught me in the LwL coffeehouse. And the darnedest thing – I forgot to bring my thesaurus with me. I think I left it in my wheelbarrow. Soooo … awkward. 🙂
Say, who’s the smiley face making rude remarks about LIS’s **cough, cough** alleged verbosity? You know my position on verbosity: verbosity is a virtue! I try to use as many words as possible to say precisely nothing. 😇
What’s the etiquette when we accidentally fun into each other? Oops, I meant to say RUN into each other. Freudian slip there – don’t mind me. Do I have to pretend to be human? Or will a simple hello suffice? 😁
Your friends are weird. They, um, ARE your friends, aren’t they? 🙂
“Let me know when you’re going to do it … I want to watch. 🙂”
You disappoint me, Mar-cee-a. In fact, I think you’re losing your golden touch. That wasn’t six words or less. 😆
“That time is now. 🙂”
Four words. Not bad. Not bad. 😜
Sammy S.,
“Say, who’s the smiley face making rude remarks about LIS’s **cough, cough** alleged verbosity? ”
Idk. Wasn’t me. He responds to people as a unit. You know how greedy I am. I want my own response. I don’t share. So I can’t respond to him anymore. 🙂
“Do I have to pretend to be human? ”
It shouldn’t be hard. Don’t you do it every day? 🙂
“You disappoint me, Mar-cee-a. In fact, I think you’re losing your golden touch. That wasn’t six words or less. 😆”
You haven’t been here in a while. No one is keeping me on my toes. I’m getting … gasp … chatty. 🙂
“I get the impression that you really want people to tell you you’re handsome.”
Sammy Sams
I really just want to tell people not to make the same mistakes I did. That I’m sorry and trying to do better. Perhaps they couldn’t care less.
If this makes me sound handsome, then kudos for my effort. If anything, your comment here will make them think. If you must also know, yes I think I am somewhat handsome but I’m way far from perfect. I think if I ever were to get the honor of meeting Marcia face to face, her first thoughts will probably be, “Really? That’s MJ? He said he looked like Big Fudge..” (sighing in disappointment 🫤😆)
“I know you have a love-hate relationship with MJ. Just let me know if you ever need me to drag him away – as in, like, literally drag him away.”
I think Marcia likes to think my life needs to be black or white like hers. Whereas I’m mainly dwelling in the gray area all the time. 😆 She doesn’t give bad advice and I enjoy ribbing her back. Usually because she thinks I’m trying to hit up on Young Women post right after their High School graduation.. 😄
The number one problem I have, which I have been trying to make a point about is.. I do not and I mean DO NOT have the privilege or luxury of closing a door with someone and opening another door right up to the next one. She talks about moving on as if I’m some wonder-stud, with a cache of Women, in or on my phone, waiting for me to contact them when something doesn’t go my way with one of them. It doesn’t work like that. I’m socially awkward half the time and trying to keep my head above water when I meet somebody I really like. For me that just takes time. Sometimes months. I’ll bet she doesn’t have that problem. I say that because she says to just move on. Great. That works for her, but it does not for me. 😆
MJ,
“The number one problem I have, which I have been trying to make a point about is.. I do not and I mean DO NOT have the privilege or luxury of closing a door with someone and opening another door right up to the next one.”
If she’s not willing to go out with you, the door was never open.
” I’ll bet she doesn’t have that problem. I say that because she says to just move on. Great. That works for her, but it does not for me. ”
I have no one “in the queue” currently. I’m ok with that. And by in the queue, I mean guys asking me out. Otherwise, it’s just … wait for it … flim flam. 🙂 But it’s true.
Otherwise, it’s just low-level orbiters. Who don’t count.
Honestly, MJ, your post didn’t so much read as a cautionary tale but as person who was really down on himself.
“If she’s not willing to go out with you, the door was never open.”
Marcia
You may be right. Then again, to always be told otherwise is quite aggravating.
“Your post didn’t so much read as a cautionary tale but as person who was really down on himself.”
I don’t really see how it couldn’t be. Granted I’m not much of a player. I don’t get around much now. But trying to be one at one time didn’t do me much good either. Neither has the limerence experience..
I have been down on myself for quite a long time. This is nothing new to this forum. My personal life situations as you know are hardly pleasant in the slightest. I have often said no good Woman wants this. Truthfully I don’t know if I even want to introduce her to it. It is sad and embarrassing. However I do hold out the hope someone might be willing to try. Until then, I have mediocrity and flim flammery.. 😑
MJ,
“You may be right. Then again, to always be told otherwise is quite aggravating.”
C’mon. You’re are a grown man in your 50s. You’re old enough to know that if someone is putting you off like that, she doesn’t want to go.
“I don’t really see how it couldn’t be. Granted I’m not much of a player. I don’t get around much now. But trying to be one at one time didn’t do me much good either. Neither has the limerence experience..”
I’m not suggesting that you be a player. Just to have the standard that someone says yes and wants to go and shows up and gives you a shot. That’s not too much to ask for.
“Until then, I have mediocrity and flim flammery.. 😑”
Because you’re accepting it.
MJ, people make mistakes and mess things up in relationships. But they can still go on to have good relationships afterwards. Look at our King.
Cloud,
“MJ, people make mistakes and mess things up in relationships. But they can still go on to have good relationships afterwards. ”
I agree.
MJ: You’re not doomed. There’s still hope. 🙂
We’ll see about that. 😶🌫️
MJ,
“We’ll see about that. 😶🌫️”
I’d worry less about dating and start with this. How you feel about yourself. You’re very down on yourself and sound demoralized.
I’m not trying to funny. I’m being serious. I know you were looking for a therapist at one point. Have you considered doing that again? And I wouldn’t go looking for one again who specializes/knows about limerence. I don’t know if that’s necessary, although you can certainly talk about your LO. But I wouldn’t make her the sole topic.
“You’re very down on yourself and sound demoralized.
I’m not trying to funny. I’m being serious.”
Marcia
I know you are and I appreciate the concern. It’s not a place I like to be in either, but this is where I happen to be at. I can’t change the outward events. To be reminded of it, even when I know you’re only trying to rib me can bring me down. It may be all in good fun and I can take it, but it doesn’t change anything. Which is why I’m probably against the whole therapy idea too. I don’t want to pay somebody to re-affirm me. For like the 50th time over, that its ok to be feeling all the feelings I am actually feeling. It won’t change a thing. Paying somebody to vent to, to talk to, to have rapport with.. With my luck, she’d be some cute 27-29 year old, that reminds me of LO or LF and I’d start crushing hard and fast. Then I’d be right back here in another conundrum, blathering on to you about our eye contact or the way she speaks to me or “Marcia, I think she’s totally in to me. Let me tell you all about what she said. You think she’s in love?” I mean with my luck, I could be that dumb. I’m good for not making good decisions. Or making good assumptions, obviously..
In any event, I still feel like she wants to do something eventually because I feel like we’re figuring each other out. Like the needle is moving but at a really slow rate. I feel like she wants to give me a shot, but something in maybe addition to her kid is holding her back. Pretty sure its not a current SO either.
The other night LF saw me talking to her and I know she txtd one of her friends to come up there and interrupt us. It was really kinda hilarious to me because that never happens. But I know why it did and it’s because LF saw me getting along well with this person. Because on the outward appearance and based off body language, her and I appear to be chummy and like being around each other. So if I’m feeling something, which may not be much, and other people are noticing it, why am I always ending up at a dead end in the maze? Is it what I think it is?Sometimes that silly hovering, orbiting just feels freaking good.
Marcia
How it feels to be walked on..
https://youtu.be/hh3JnYbHkV0?si=VUa68MniNCYQhWEm
Go figure.. 😂
MJ,
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QILiHtzXFjQ
Thanks. Makes perfect sense. This is why the market sucks.
“Your little limerent brain just doesn’t want to let go of hope, does it?”
Well I am still here at a job I really don’t like for the last 3 1/2 years (3 years, 6 months, 6 days) in case she wants to get her job back. If that answers your question.
That I want people to think I am handsome? Well I don’t remember posting a picture, but that doesn’t at all surprise me I don’t. Well Sammy, you just leave my mid life crisis alone. 🙂
Sir 🎩 🥃 ,
You posted a picture with your two sons before Christmas? do you don’t remember it?
Your LO just got married, you still wishes her to come to your work?
What happened to your Stoic video clips you sent me? They’re good stuff!
Wish you feeling better…. 🫂
I do not. Which is understandably surprising since I don’t post myself online, in general, much at all. There are very few times I’ve been in an online community that I felt comfortable to show my face.
Her being married doesn’t change who she is. I mean I guess it can to some degree, depending on what kind of husband he is. Like I posted above, I just enjoy her company. She somehow changes me from the cynical, pessimistic, grouchy old curmudgeon I usually am, to a very happy, upbeat, positive extrovert.
I watch stoic videos and/or short every day. It’s like my drinking, some days I do better than others with the limerence. And I got a lot on my mind at home. Lots of changes around the house and for the most part it keeps my mind busy. But some days, like last night, when I am staring at the potatoes in the skillet frying, my mind wanders. “What’s she cooking her man tonight for dinner?” “Or is he the chef of the house?”
Adam,
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-you-probably-dont-have-a-personality-disorder/#comment-124218
Based on what you’re saying, you may not to want to keep this photo in Imgur, you can delete it easily there.
It was from your situation, I began to comprehend why limerence can be considered as a “drug addiction”. I understand how the drug-LO stuck in your mind, and I think your drinking is making it worse.
Stoicism requires incredible discipline to train one’s mind all day along. Have you got some of its mantra to go over everyday? Our “old” mind can be trained to habitually think in new light, but it takes time.
How is Mamma doing with her heart and general health? Sometimes, you can’t take face value of words from SO/Mamma. When one (SO) is frightened by unknown, one could angrily say anything to vent out the fear.
31 people from this community (or more) checked out the photo…
She had her follow up doctor’s visit from her fall and head injury on new years eve Thursday. The doctor is satisfied with how it is healing and there is no evidence of any skull fractures or anything too serious.
The doctor does want her to get an MRI and see a neurologist. They haven’t quite figured out what, for sure, though the doctor had some ideas, why it happened that she passed out for the head injury to occur.
I got a recipe idea off the internet today that I am going to try tonight for dinner so she doesn’t have to cook. The more time she can rest in bed the faster her bruises will go away.
The biggest issue with the MRI and neurologist is the cost of it all since I can’t afford to provide her insurance through my job and I make $200 a month too much for her to get state provided health insurance. So this is something of a roadblock. The MRI only costs $300 so that is feasible. But I would hate to research what the cost of multiple specialists doctors visit would cost.
Limerence is the enemy of my practiced stoicism. Every time I start to get my feet grounded and my emotions in control and making good steps forward with my self awareness and emotional regulation here comes intrusive thoughts again. It is an exhausting battle, that, and having to care for Momma, and still work on the changes with the house, by the time I can rest, I go right to drinking. But I have been doing better about how much here in the last couple of months. So there’s that at least.
I kicked the LE with xLO but I have a new infatuation. I doubt it will become a full blown LE. But damn I am susceptible.
@MJ.
You know I only drop into the coffeehouse to make sure everyone is behaving. And then … I regret dropping into the coffeehouse, because I find my optimism misplaced. (Other humans are apparently incapable of behaving properly). 🙄
On a brighter note, from participating in LwL, I have reached the conclusion that I’m just naturally funny. As in funny even when I’m not trying to be funny. I didn’t know I was such a delight to be around! 🙂
I had this real-life interaction this morning:
Waitress: “Do you know where you’re sitting?”
Me: “There’s a dirty table outside I was thinking of claiming.”
Waitress: **cracks up**
“And then … I regret dropping into the coffeehouse, because I find my optimism misplaced.”
“Waitress: “Do you know where you’re sitting?”
Me: “There’s a dirty table outside I was thinking of claiming.””
Sammy Sams
That’s too bad my Friend because I like your outlook. You write from the heart and have a perspective of limerence that I find delightful and a very honest assessment of what being limerent feels like. I can’t begin to tell you how many times I’ve read something you wrote and thought to myself, “that’s exactly how that feels.” Which is why I wish you’d stay around here a little more often than not. If you did, I’d be honored to join you at that dirty table outside for a drink or two. Maybe even three.
Husband to Wife:
“Marcia Dear, look at those two Men sitting and drinking at that filthy table outside. Shrieking like schoolgirls and chortling over each others words. What ever in Gawds name is wrong with them?
Wife:
They’re limerents..
@Adam.
I haven’t read your recent posts, because I don’t want to intrude on your private life in any way. However, I think the general concern with your limerence in the past may have been as follows.
Readers at LwL have gotten to know you. Readers at LwL have probably become pretty fond of you. Readers have also grown fond of your wife, who seems like a nice lady. If people have called out your posts, it’s because I don’t think anyone wants to see your limerence damage your marriage. Also, I don’t think people want to see you unintentionally say anything that might be insensitive to your wife.
I’m not implying you’ve ever said or done anything wrong. I didn’t read the posts that caused so much consternation, and I have no wish to. I’m not asking you to explain or defend or justify yourself. But I think in the past it was surely the “potential for causing harm and/or hurt feelings” that people were responding to.
The strange thing about limerence is that we don’t necessarily go looking for a potential mate and/or a NEW potential mate. Rather, our brains zero in on a person and decides that that person is going to be the “most salient” and “most rewarding” individual in our environment for a time. Non-limerents generally don’t understand that limerents aren’t actively choosing to be in limerence with a given LO. Half the time, limerents themselves don’t seem to understand what’s going on.
Personally, even before coming to LwL, I’ve always more or less shared Teika’s view on limerence i.e. “Well, let’s just figure out what this thing is…”
People say one can’t “logic one’s way out of limerence”. And that’s true to the extent that the strength of the attraction in limerence isn’t just all-consuming, but also blinding and irrational. However, if anyone’s done a good job of introducing a healthy dose of reason into the conversation, that’s Dr. L.
Don’t pay any attention to the antics between Marcia and myself. We’re just kidding around. When I play around with Marcia, what I’m really saying to her is this: “I understand your joy and your sorrow and your desire and your longing”. What I am NOT telling Marcia to do is to act on her longing, and I think Marcia understands that only too well. Marcia and I are old friends. Marcia sometimes “misbehaves” because she knows she’s going to get pushback, and I think a part of her finds such pushback reassuring. It’s like having a big brother on standby.
My argument with the womenfolk of LwL historically is that some of them (actually, only one of them) seemed to think that I should automatically affirm their ideological position on limerence, simply because of some identity group I may belong to. Such women/this one woman ignored the fact that I’m an individual first and foremost, and I’ve spent the last twenty-odd years exploring my own very messy emotions in great depth – probably out of a desire to find out why my emotions are so messy in the first place, compared to other people’s.
Living in a permanent/semi-permanent state of emotional and physiological “overactivation” isn’t fun. It’s actually super-stressful. Consequently, I’m not going to roll over and agree automatically with anyone else’s view on limerence, no matter how clever their argument or how affecting their emotional appeal.
Because of the amount of stress I’ve lived through personally – stress that apparently arose within me purely as a result of limerence (and limerence for just the one LO, I might add!) – I’ve spent my entire adult life searching for the limerence off-switch. (My own limerence off-switch, not other people’s).
If you’ve ever wished that someone would just give you their candid take on limerence, without all the bluster and fanfare attached, that’s mine. 🙂
Sam
If I post something on LwL it’s not private. This is the internet. Not like Las Vegas.
Dame Marcia is going to crucify me for bringing this up again, but we need her here. She speaks her mind like she did to me in, probably, the first month I found this place to “set me straight”. Dame Marcia is the ying to Miss Louisa’s yang and I appreciate both their perspectives.
I have no issue on your views on limerence other than you can be a bit raw/rude and confrontational about it. And that’s you, and why I stay out of most of your conversations that aren’t directed at me. Not saying you’re an a$$hole just very different from my disposition. Though it does boggle my mind (and I asked my wife as she has a childhood friend that is homosexual) that there’s an assumption that women (heterosexual or not) would gravitate towards you justifying their limerence because of your sexual preference. Maybe it’s why I felt unending empathy to frederico for being limerent for a heterosexual man. And my confusion as to the way that his LO would interact with him, as it was not typical heterosexual behavior.
On the handsome thing …. I bet you got better fashion sense than me. I mean obviously because you’re homosexual right? 😀
LwL ladies
I need your advice. Momma, a natural cowgirl/tomgirl just got some packages from Amazon today. She bought me a nice pair of dress shoes for church. But she also bought her a dress with a nice “shawl” (it’s a half shirt that just covers her arms, the dress is straps, and can be buttoned or unbuttoned) that’s purple, my favorite color. She also bought a turquoise (thank god for spellcheck) silk blouse, a shirt that has eye/ear? holes to tie it on her chest and a black and red skirt that does the same on the sides to chinch up on the sides to make it as tight as she wants it to be. And one of those shirts that allows for how buxom a woman is but hugs at the waist. Is Momma scared I’m gonna leave because she doesn’t think I find her attractive anymore?
Adam,
Maybe she has an LO. 🙂
In all honesty, I do wonder that. Why the partnered limerents on here never seem to worry about their SOs falling into infatuation/limerence with someone else. They’re always focused on who their LOs have feelings for/are with.
But maybe your wife just wants to look nice. For you or for herself. That’s what I would think.
I don’t think my SO has ever been limerent. There is one person, however, who he seems convinced has always been carrying a torch for him. I always dismissed this, knowing the person, but lately have begun to wonder.
Marcia a voice of sanity. I can’t get him to listen to me. I’ve gained some weight, I don’t like myself in much, I don’t like myself much period. I’m just going to answer everybody all at once in this one post, because it’s just easier. He had something on his mind, I asked him what… after 15 minutes he hands me his phone and shows me the posts. Which I guess is better than him accusing me of always questioning him. I can say I definitely do not have an LO. As far as him being weird about things online, we met online, so we have a different perspective of it.
You notice he knows exactly how long she’s been away from that job, but more years in and he can’t tell you the day my Mama passed away? that sounds harsh,but I’ve either got to go harsh or break.
as far as my clothes what he didn’t include was my Let It Be, Yin-Yang, a few pagan & gothic themed, and Supernatural T-Shirts. Shoes, pair of tennis shoes, because my boots aren’t always feasible due to my ankle and a pair of dress shoes. I bought a pair of jeans, because I only have 1 pair that I got 6 years ago. He doesn’t remember because why would he, I have a love of peasant tops, always have. I shop at Hot Topic, I listen to Slipknot and Ren and everything in between. I, however, very much dislike the lead singer they added to Linkin Park, for reasons. The earrings I got technically are exactly the kind I like.
https://youtu.be/HMluqSGag5E?si=q2IjbnEPoeefvAQI
He’s making me insane — flip flopping and yes I can tell when it’s her and when it’s something else. I’ve never once lied to him about when he has said her name, in fact I keep more of it to myself than anything because I don’t want to start a fight. I asked him one night if he remembered what his bad dream was that morning and he barked at me why are you always questioning me {When he’s in a bad dream, I can get him out of it by touching his arm or chest and saying I’m here wake up. Because he has a weird keening sound like a wounded animal and if I don’t wake him, he’ll wake with a blood curdling scream}? It’s just a little infuriating when I am laying next to him and our hands are clasped and he says her name…you ever wonder why he calls me Momma? It’s easier to slide into Momma from her name than it would be my name or any of the other things he used to call me. He’ll start and then momma, momma. I refuse to say her name I dislike the very sound of it….. makes watching Criminal Minds and General Hospital cringey…Derek & Jason have the same last name.
No ghost, a poltergeist… I told him I was going to smudge the house.
The only reason why any of my buying stuff is out of character is the fact that I actually bought something for myself. Everything I ordered were things I already liked.
My YouTube live streams… clìffẞeats and as the name would suggest…music! I talk to the other musicheads in the chat… nerdcore rap is actually pretty awesome, DaddyPhatSnaps does some wild stuff. I enjoy music, I like seeing what people have to say about things I’ve listened to for 40 years or hearing new things ie nerdcore rap. I have had *a* non-public conversation, last year I wrote to ask him to tell his SO that her laughter and surprise made me smile 5 days after I found out my friend had passed. She does not have social media, so that is how I got the message to her, she gets embarrassed because music makes her cry, I didn’t want her to cry. Simple as that and I showed him the conversation. The night I found out my cousin lost her mental battles, I was in a Livestream so yes those women and men get where I am, much like y’all get Adam, a love of music without ripping good memories away. and as far as another male YouTuber….. I watch a few, not in livestreams though, I had to have someone explain all the background to the Kendrick/Drake thing …and everyone that I do watch are the age of my cousins or younger. Just not my style at all. For all I know he’s talking about Ren, he’s an artist/musician Brighton by way of Wales. but his story is a wild roller coaster, and like Jared Padalecki, I’m glad they have beat that demon so far.
My other YT chats are either Emily D Baker, a lawyer, or Julez in an Idaho4 case chat. are there men in those, probably, but I don’t know the make up of all our chats.
NYE: I have Vasovagal Syncope, I had a stomach bug….those two don’t play nice. However, I don’t remember going out, falling, or how long I was out. If it was my ‘normal’ VS going out, I would’ve told him I’m going out. Because I can alert people, this time I was saying just let me go to the bed, next thing I knew our boy was on the floor holding my hand (he’s been through the ringers). I put my hand on my head cause it was hurting like you would not believe. I literally looked like someone beaned me with a softball in fast pitch. 11 days in and the dent is starting to smooth out. I have had a cardiac work up, I throw PVCs not a surprise.
I have Critical Cervical Spinal Stenosis C4-6 — IOW, 1 fall, 1 whiplash, and I could be paralyzed neck down, it is that bad. Does it surprise me? Not really Disc Degeneration is another fun family thing. My dad’s neck is fused C3-4,4-5 and he has a cage in his back from L1-5. My mom’s was the same way, so was my Granma’s.
A (adam’s wife)
https://youtu.be/SDR7sup3DsU?si=uyRC1JonXO-xH1h5
https://youtu.be/bbbjWEnC3Gc?si=ZUYF2J5a9rbd0TtO
Adam’s wife, nice to hear from you! Talk about a voice of sanity.
I reckon it’s no bad thing if he worries the clothes are to impress other guys. He’s lucky to have you and he knows it, really, even if his limerence-addled (and alcohol-addled) brain doesn’t always behave itself.
Hugs. x
Dear Adam’s wife,
I am probably about your age, as are my friends. We are all struggling to feel good about ourselves. Looking nice helps, buying new outfits and changing hairstyles help. Chatting amongst ourselves also helps. Cool hobbies help. What’s great is that you have some hobbies that you love and some seriously cool music tastes (I love anything that’s not “middle of the road”). Maybe you and Adam could make a plan to see a gothy or metal gig together.
Hope you feel better, what you’re going through with the health issues sounds enough to get anyone down.
Sending love to you both.
Bx
Mrs. Adam,
I agree with Cloud. I think it’s a good thing he’s a little worried about the clothes. Shows he cares. Shows there’s still a little sexual frisson between you. 🙂 I really do think this is the first time I’ve read a post in which a limerent expressed concern about their SO’s ability to attract or be attracted to someone else. Which, as I wrote, kind of baffles me. I guess they figure the SO isn’t going anywhere.
Enjoy your clothes and feel good in them! 🙂
Mrs. Adam,
I would buy a variety of very sexy, soft lingeries to sleep on, so not only his waking eyes can’t take off you all night through, but his dreams would likely have more of your images on those lingeries….
It’s universally acknowledged that men seem to be more visual… what they see with their naked eyes is far more effective and memorable than what they hear, smell or reckon …
Snow, I disagree. I think Mrs Adam should wear whatever the hell she wants to wear. She’s worth more than having to dress a certain way to keep her man. All of us women are worth more than that. This is the twenty-first century. 💪
I agree with Snow. I don’t think a woman has to dress for her man all the time but sometimes, its a good thing. Wanting to keep a mate’s sexual /romantic attention is part of a relationship. IMO.
☁️ Cloud, 👒 Marcia,
Dressing up is just one small part of being a woman/SO, but not ALL. It’s not just to please any other men/women, but only for bf/BP/SO inside one’s bedroom, or just for oneself…
Outside in the world, she can still be HERSELF, like a tomboy, woman warrior, wife, or mother, “twisting those brainy 🧠 heads off” in the urban jungle. 😀
Actually I talked with my big-nosed snobby psychotherapist about it once back in 2016, worrying whether I was too vain. She told me, “as long as beautifying is (in whatever way) for your OWN sake, not for particular man or one occasion, that’s HEALTHY. That would help increase your self confidence! Each time ask yourself beforehand, WHY do I do it, for MYSelf or someone else?
I grew up in COO that considered dressing up as vanity, so that therapy session was very liberating to me. I can’t stand looking at my sloppy self anytime… I wear organic flower oil and feminine gown/lingerie (never t-shit/short) to bed daily…
Snow,
“Each time ask yourself beforehand, WHY do I do it, for MYSelf or someone else?”
I never ask myself that. If there weren’t men in the world,
I’d eat brownies all day long. I’d gain 50 pounds. I’d wear sweat pants. Get a buzz cut. Go au naturel with the body hair. No makeup. I would not care. 😉 (I’m totally serious.)
Miss Marcia,
I eat disgustingly healthy, exercise, and beautify myself for my own sake FIRST and then the world at large that includes both men and women. I do appreciate beauty of the nature, but not unaesthetic stuff such as T-shirts and loose sweat pants. I like jeans and tights even on 17-18th century men.
To please all my senses becomes quite important after that therapy session. I live First and Far most for my Self in terms of physical and mental health…
My job is a kind of “performance”, so I have to pay attention to my appearance. But I never put on heavy makeups.
Snow,
“But I never put on heavy makeups.”
I don’t wear heavy makeup but I do wear some.
I can’t imagine the freedom that would exist if there were no men. 🙂
Ha! I’d have only four beauty products — soap, toothpaste, deodorant, and one of those combo shampoo/conditioners! I’d be a man! 🙂
To Adam:
Is this type of behavior completely out of character for her?
I think she found some cute outfit that shows off her figure and wants to wear it. 🙂 I’ve gotta wonder, from the description, if she was shopping at a Gothy store with a corset top. 🙂
They are quite gothic.
https://imgur.com/a/tL0LO8D
I’d wear those.
I’d wear the skirt. In fact, I have one with laces like that on the sides. 🙂 And yes, I got it from a Gothic vendor. 🙂
Maybe she felt like a fashion refresh. I’ve done that here and there throughout my life. I used to dress much more conservatively. 🙂
Dame Marcia
It might be. She has a lot of online interactions so an online LO would not be a surprise to me. But I hope it’s the latter. I’ve had suspicions for a long time but have never voiced it as I have no real evidence.
Dear Norma
Yes totally out of the norm for her. I’ve seen her dress one time this year so far and that was at the company Christmas party.
Sir Adam,
“I’ve had suspicions for a long time but have never voiced it as I have no real evidence.”
You’ve never asked? Usually, when you point out to a limerent that their spouse could fall for someone just as they did, their response is, “They’re not a limerent.” But I don’t know that they have to be. And they fell for their spouse so surely someone else could also find their spouse appealing, too. They never seem to think along those lines. It doesn’t dawn on them. (This isn’t meant as some kind of warning. Just an observation.)
If your wife is changing how she’s dressing (I didn’t know it was out of character) … Idk. I would think she would have been worried about you leaving a long time ago. When you were first limerent or still working with your LO. I don’t know why she would worry about it after all this time.
Dear Norma
Yes totally out of the norm for her. I’ve seen her dress one time this year so far and that was at the company Christmas party.
To Adam:
Okay, so totally out of the norm. So now I am wondering, is it time for a mid-life crisis?
Cloud, I’m not a voice of sanity, very much the opposite in fact. I know he loves me, I just don’t know what that means to *him* anymore. I took my vows serious, I meant every one of them.
https://youtu.be/6qWNjZBG948?si=iSDVgcsy0n3tcF88
He asked why I bought them. I liked the dress.. purple is one color he and I share along with my Mama (it was her favorite too) the thing is though for me that is a summer time dress, if I knew it was going to throw him into a spin out I would have shown him before I bought it. I didn’t buy anything out of character for me, just because I bought one dress (well 2 because I bought the dress for the X-Mas party and believe me I’d been eyeing it for months) doesn’t mean I’m changing all my stuff… I’m still a southern tomboy that likes my t-shirts, jeans, sneaks, tats and ball caps.
My earrings I bought Celtic/Pagan in design, because that is what I like, I have to be careful with what I put in my ears though I’m allergic to most ‘hypoallergenic’ things…it’s weird. Everything I got was on clearance because clearance is a girl’s friend!!! 😉
I wanted a Su!cide Awareness ring (I hate that I even have to censor that word) but Santa wasn’t listening to me.
That’s the thing though, I usually consult with him before buying stuff. The issue is I can’t do anything right. I’m either too tomboyish and I just want my t-shirt, jeans, sneakers or I buy a dress that I found that I liked and suddenly I’m off to some secret rendezvous with I’m not sure who… either 3 states away or somewhere in the UK???? Please lords above and below send me to the UK for music festivals ….rather go there than the OR, I seem to have very little choice though. I’ve had osteo surgery before & they start messing with bone and I get squicky. Surgery freaks me out even after 8 of them and I really don’t want to ask him to take off any time for work, because then I get the guilt trips.
I have more important things to worry about than any dude on the internet. Maybe it’s that I don’t see my oldest son enough as I want to, my youngest has been freakin’ traumatized all to Hades and back, my step mother has alzheimer’s, my dad was temporarily paralyzed midsection down this summer, people just keep leaving, I sleep during the day when he’s at work so I can stay up at night to make sure he doesn’t do too much more damage to his body…. I had to haul him up out of the floor twice last night.
and maybe it is just the fact that he is drinking himself stupid over a spectre of a woman that NEVER existed except in his head. Quite frankly I’m absolutely out of fuel for 3 people in a marriage, when all I did wrong was heavens forefend have Bipolar, become dependent on alcohol and then get sober because I had no other option and it messed me up. there will be hell to pay for that statement but I’m tired and if he wants to go, I can’t stop him. I’m not begging any man to stay, my Mama would give me the biggest smack to the back of my head the universe would allow her…… and I have said everything in these posts to his face, whether he remembers I don’t know honestly.
Another thing that maybe y’all can get through to him because I’m just a bit terrified… I have evidence of a stroke in my left thalamus, there is ischemic damage present that wasn’t there when I had brain MRI and CT in 2019. Maybe it happened 3-4 years ago the first time I lost time had to commando crawl from kitchen to our bedroom because I couldn’t get up and when I woke up again there was blood all over my pillow, my scalp was busted open and maybe it happened 6 months ago. It’s nothing new to some of the OGs that were here the last time I posted to share my side of things. but he’s worried about ….other things. I don’t know what else y’all want to know, just ask and I’ll check back in.
Also I’m not doing oh woe is me, everybody’s life is a little out of whack right now, I get it… I’m just explaining why stuff weighs a little heavier on me than it does him because most of it he doesn’t remember or know the significance. He got frustrated with me Saturday because I didn’t want to go to the store, I have a huge very ugly bruise on the side of my face from forehead to my chin. I didn’t need a busybody calling security or officers
ps. if the Idaho4 case thing is baffling to anyone, before we got together I was a Criminal Justice major.
A
I thought I had clicked on a favorites video of Chinchilla
https://youtu.be/wvh-iW803bY?si=ynv0lN3hetO9XvcQ
…not a stupid reaction to it. I’m tired. She can kick you in the face with her voice…….. her album was called Flytrap.
Bewitched…. concerts are whew, I can’t do indoor concerts anymore the anxiety is way ramped up. He’s been to one concert and that was Avenged Sevenfold with Bullet For My Valentine (ugh ugh) and Three Days Grace opening. I went to Mayhem Fest in 2014, the friend I went with didn’t know what the colors and tats being flashed were about and I had to drag her back before the fight broke out. Jonathan Davis did pretty good diffusing it. and then M.Shadows had to stop their part and tell some idiot that scaled the scaffolding to get down safely.
A
To Mrs. Adam:
I just want to say hello, and it’s nice to hear from you.
She’s never bought more pretty feminine things in 25 years of marriage than she has in the last month or so. For me because of LO? Or the potential him?
I wasn’t really suggesting she has an LO. I just think it’s odd that no one seems to worry about their SO.
I don’t know why she bought new, more feminine clothes. Why don’t you ask her? 🙂
Is she still bothered/upset by your LO? Does she know how much you still think of your LO? Can she sense it? Idk. Is your LO a ghost still hanging around? Kind of ironic in that she’s not a part of your life (and wasn’t a big part of your life). Hasn’t she been gone for a while? Over a year ?
3 1/2 years.
Should I ask her?
Yes
I don’t know how to do that Miss Lovisa. Maybe I don’t want to know?
If it’s causing you distress, I think you should ask her. Be honest. Thank her for the stuff that she bought for you, too. Give her some compliments especially if you think she looks good in her new clothes. I don’t think you should draw any conclusions about her motivation because it is probably more innocent than you think. If I had to guess, I’d say she saw something she liked and wants to try it out.
I don’t understand why it’s so hard to ask. Why are you afraid of the answer?
Miss Lovisa, I wouldn’t say it’s a distressing thing, wondering is she is limerent. It’s more just an observation in the last month to two months ago that she’s bought, shoes, clothes and jewelry that are out character for her. And don’t get me wrong, I can’t wait to see her in all of them. I love when she dresses feminine. Love it. It’s just a ball coming out of left field. And after what I went and/or am going through I’m recognizing the change in appearance because I did it myself for LO.
Oh, that makes sense.
Adam,
I was kidding. I didn’t know having an LO was even a possibility.
If these are online interactions, has she even met any of these guys in person?
Marcia
If she is limerent for someone online, who am I to judge? I know she’s been in live chats on YouTube with both these men but I don’t know if she’s contacted them one on one in private messages because I don’t go through her phone or laptop. It’s none of my business.
The change in clothes purchased makes me wonder if she is either having her own midlife crisis, matching my fashion or preparing for a meet up with one of these guys. Either way I’m not interfering. It is what it is. If she feels she’ll be happier with another man, who am I to interfere with?
Just curious why the change in what she wears.
https://imgur.com/a/vPGolhL
https://imgur.com/a/MxDfifA
https://imgur.com/a/e6R4sVv
Adam,
“The change in clothes purchased makes me wonder if she is either having her own midlife crisis, matching my fashion or preparing for a meet up with one of these guys. Either way I’m not interfering. It is what it is. If she feels she’ll be happier with another man, who am I to interfere with?”
Uh … you’re her husband. Yes, you have the right to know if she plans on meeting up with one of these guys. Just as she would have the right to know if you were meeting up with another woman. (But I agree with you: I wouldn’t go through her messages. The only time I’d say that was justified is if you’ve asked if she plans on meeting up with or has met up with one of them and you feel she’s lying or you’ve asked about her feelings for one of them and your gut is telling you you’re not getting the whole story. And by that, I mean you’ve asked several times (in both scenarios), tried to have several conversations over time, and you’re getting flim flam.)
She asked you directly about your feelings for your LO. I’m not sure why you’re not asking her.
Sorry. I forgot to look at the clothes.
The clothes are nice.
But right now, all that’s happened is … she’s bought some nice clothes.
I would just ask her about it.
My first thought, in seeing the goth outfit, was : That’s a seduction outfit. You may be be in for a nice surprise. 🙂
Oh god please yes.
“Hey I love your new outfit. You look damn sexy and I can’t wait to rip it off you. I hope it’s me you’re intending to impress and not all the guys waiting in line for you!”
Or something like that. A conversation opener and making your slight jealousy into a joke.
Cloud
My wife went through gastric bypass surgery in 2001-2002 before our first son was born and she has this pretty night thing that she was embarrassed to wear in front of me because she felt she was unattractive because of her weight. From 325 to 180 even it almost falls off of her it’s my favorite pretty thing. It’s a long silver gown with straps that goes to her ankles and I’m grrrrr She ain’t getting away from me when she wears that. 😉
I like the purple outfit and I like how Cloud worded a possible approach for you.
There is no Life or Death
Mina Loy
1882 –1966
There is no Life or Death,
Only activity
And in the absolute
Is no declivity.
There is no Love or Lust
Only propensity
Who would possess
Is a nonentity.
There is no First or Last
Only equality
And who would rule
Joins the majority.
There is no Space or Time
Only intensity,
And tame things
Have no immensity.
Tender Buttons [A Red Stamp]
Gertrude Stein
1874 –1946
If lilies are lily white if they exhaust noise and distance and even dust, if they dusty will dirt a surface that has no extreme grace, if they do this and it is not necessary it is not at all necessary if they do this they need a catalogue.
Much Later
Gertrude Stein
1874 –1946
Elephants and birds of beauty and a gold fish. Gold fish or a superstition. They always bring bad luck. He had them and he was not told. Gold fish and he was not old. Gold fish and he was not to scold. Gold fish all told. The result was that the other people never had them and he knows nothing of it.
Brancusi’s Golden Bird
Mina Loy
1882 –1966
The toy
become the aesthetic archetype
As if
some patient peasant God
had rubbed and rubbed
the Alpha and Omega
of Form
into a lump of metal
A naked orientation
unwinged unplumed
—the ultimate rhythm
has lopped the extremities
of crest and claw
from
the nucleus of flight
The absolute act
of art
conformed
to continent sculpture
—bare as the brow of Osiris—
this breast of revelation
an incandescent curve
licked by chromatic flames
in labyrinths of reflections
This gong
of polished hyperaesthesia
shrills with brass
as the aggressive light
strikes
its significance
The immaculate
conception
of the inaudible bird
occurs
in gorgeous reticence …
Portrait of the Artist
Dorothy Parker
1893 –1967
Oh, lead me to a quiet cell
Where never footfall rankles,
And bar the window passing well,
And gyve my wrists and ankles.
Oh, wrap my eyes with linen fair,
With hempen cord go bind me,
And, of your mercy, leave me there,
Nor tell them where to find me.
Oh, lock the portal as you go,
And see its bolts be double….
Come back in half an hour or so,
And I will be in trouble.
🙃
To My Brother
https://imgur.com/a/lfrJItA
If I were you Brother, I would leave it all alone. Leave her alone and let her buy and wear all the pretty outfits she wants. If you notice them around, tell her to put one on for a night on the town with you. If you start making accusations now, you’ll be lighting another fire to have to put out. Liquor is probably playing with your head now too, so play it safe. I’ll take your word about the oatmeal stout. It sounds delicious.. 🍻
Stay strong my Friend..🤜🏻🤛🏻
Brother
Watched this last night and thought of you. Good lyrics. Appropriate for the Ladies. LO or whoever..
https://youtu.be/8fXB-CWZKAo?si=lsvKrJIu1PEK2ARt