Another trip to the LwL coffeehouse for some genial banter.
This week’s YouTube video turned out to be a bit of an epic effort. It’s on the topic of the links between limerence and other mental health conditions, which is a question that I get asked surprisingly often.
The usual query is: is my limerence linked to my ADHD/OCD/borderline (etc.) condition? This is my best answer.
In the video, I go fairly deep into the neuroscience of OCD, ADHD and anxious attachment, and the similarities and differences to the neuroscience of limerence. That became quite an exercise in research, as I wanted to get the details as accurate as I could.
I might even have overdone it a little.
What’s missing, though, is a good account of what it feels like to experience limerence if you have any of these other conditions (or tendencies, if you haven’t had a formal diagnosis).
Because I lack that direct personal experience, it’s hard to go beyond comparisons of the clinical evidence and get to the really meaty reality of having limerence along with another neurodivergent trait.
So, to kick off discussions for this week, I’d like to invite anyone who has any form of neurodiversity or mental health condition to describe their experience of limerence as best as they can.
To stimulate discussion, here’s some things I’m wondering about:
- Does being limerent change the symptoms of your other condition?
- Are some limerence symptoms especially strong for you?
- Does the altered state of mind of limerence resemble the altered state of mind of the other condition?
- Did limerence set in about the same time as your other condition, or did they begin at different ages?
- If you do feel that limerence is linked to another condition, can you explain why you feel that way?
All insights are greatly appreciated!
A second question (boy, I’m being nosy this week) is about UK podcasts. The launch date for my book in the UK is fast approaching, and I’d love to get talking about it on podcasts in the relationship and self-development space.
So, this is a call for suggestions – any podcasts that LwL followers listen to, which might be a good fit for a chat about all things limerence?
Again, all recommendations welcomed!
Pre-order offer!
I’ve just found out that Waterstones in the UK is currently running a promotion for 25% off pre-ordered books. It runs from 22nd to 24th February. Use code PREORDER25 at the checkout. Link to Smitten here:
https://www.waterstones.com/book/smitten/dr-tom-bellamy/9781786789143
Nothing formally diagnosed, but I would say I have been suffering from depression and anxiety for several years now. For me, I believe these conditions are situational rather than the result of some innate or chemical issue in my brain. I don’t believe I would be experiencing depression or anxiety if I had a normal marriage, a job I still liked, a wider circle of friends and no financial issues to contend with.
Limerence has been my escape from depression and anxiety over the past five years. I would say I have turned to limerence as a coping mechanism over the past five years. Rather than dealing with my very real problems, I have engaged in rumination over my LOs. This has actually made my issues worse. This will sound familiar to many Limerents, but at first it felt good, but like most addictions, it eventually stopped being a pleasant experience when I began to see the hopelessness of it all. It also started to impact my work performance because it’s so much easier to ruminate over my LOs than to buckle down and get caught up in a job I increasingly despise, or even to make the effort to change jobs and careers. I’ve certainly tried to end my marriage, but my wife is delusional and won’t see that our marriage is dead despite living like roommates for seven years and me reiterating to her clearly and unequivocally over the past four years that I want out of the marriage and will never change my mind. I find that experiencing the “so near yet so far away” feeling with my current LO adds to my depression. This is a fantastic lady I can see would likely be a good fit for me, and there are some signs she likes me too, yet I can’t pursue her because I’m still stuck in a dead marriage.
As far as symptoms are concerned, while I would still classify what I’m experiencing as “high-functioning depression,” I do experience lack of energy, tiredness, poor eating habits, lack of attention to my personal hygiene (at times) and often this strange lack of motivation to do the things that I know will help me dig myself out of my hole. I know I feel better when I shave, have a shower, put on some clean clothes, brush my teeth and get out of the house, yet I so often have no energy to do those things. I feel tremendous anxiety at work about completing unpleasant tasks, so I procrastinate. The problem is that when I finally do tackle those things it opens up a can of worms (“You mean to say you’re just getting to this NOW?”). That fear makes things worse. I’d rather ruminate about my LO, rehash our interactions in my mind over and over again and fantasize about her. I know this isn’t helpful but I still do it as an escape.
As far as UK podcasters are concerned, I think Steven Bartlett at Diary of a CEO is excellent. Many of his guests talk about mental health, and I could see Dr. L being a great guest on that podcast/YouTube channel.
I am the wife of a husband who was caught out with his 4th LO. I was blindsided. We are still married. He claims it was all a mistake, his ego was out of control, going through grief and just went off the rails. I truly believe he has some mental problems but undiagnosed. He has symptoms of OCD, compulsion and is narcissistic at times. He always gaslights me. I have trouble believing anything he says to the point hes says he loves me and wants to make things work yet he has lied, was on the verge of throwing 33 years away. How do I get over the lying and put it behind me? It is all on him, he also has a LO at work. When challenged he confessed to 4 instances of having a crush on someone else, that was a hard day to be told that. All I hadn’t informed him to have a crush on me like we used to. Even when I had breast cancer he didn’t support me and told me stayed as it was the right thing to do. I was oblivious to this until 2 years ago. I truly believe mental health and limerence go hand in hand.
@Heartbroken, I can completely empathize with you and with other spouses or partners of limerents. It must feel like a betrayal to know your SO is obsessing over someone else. I can completely understand that. There are some people on this site who are in healthy, happy, normal relationships and they are trying to cope with this affliction. They want to do the right thing and often say they prefer their partners over their LOs.
I personally have never experienced limerence while in a happy and healthy relationship. While there were some issues throughout our marriage, I wasn’t limerent for anyone for about 20 years until I met LO #1 five years ago. It was only once I had been living in an unsatisfying sexless marriage for a couple of years that I started to have a wandering eye in a big way. I do think I am suffering from depression and anxiety, but I actually think my wife has more serious mental health issues. I believe she has some type of personality disorder. I have documented some of my struggles with her elsewhere on this site, but she is controlling, nagging, manipulative, gaslighting, boring, lazy and downright abusive towards me and our daughter. So much so that my daughter has told me she will never forgive me if I don’t get her out of this toxic, abusive environment with my wife. The police and the child protection authorities have been to our door several times to deal with my wife’s and daughter’s often violent altercations. As I mentioned, my wife is completely delusional about the state of our marriage. I have been telling her clearly, unequivocally and unwaveringly over four years that I want separation and divorce, and still she refuses to accept that it is over. Just this past weekend, she went on about how she wants to save our marriage, and I told her I feel differently. I desperately want out. Sure, I would love a chance with my current LO (who just seems perfect for me), but I’m not delusional. I know that even if my marriage ended the chances are I wouldn’t end up with LO #3.
So, yes, I do feel like I am suffering from some mental health challenges, but I think they are more situational than biological or chemical. I’m depressed because my life sucks, not because of some chemical imbalance in my brain. I’m not a neuroscientist, a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but my personal opinion is that mental illness often accompanies limerence, but I don’t believe that has to be the case. And I recognize that in this day and age, we rush to medicate issues like depression and anxiety even if the causes are situational. I think it is far better to solve the problems causing the issues rather than simply to pop pills, but I’m hardly an expert. I do think that medication is an absolute necessity for some people, including those with severe depression, but again, mine is of the “high functioning” variety. Most people who know me wouldn’t suspect I’m depressed.
I have been diagnosed with dysthymia (chronic, low grade depression) and have taken an SSRI for 10 years now. It wasn’t until after I started feeling therapeutic results that I realized that other things like slight social anxiety and menstrual ups and downs disappeared as well!
I only care to talk about the LOs I had while married because they taught me the most. The first one was during a rough patch in our marriage. I had befriended and unexpectedly fell limerent for a male coworker, even though he was in no way my type. He professed his love for me, but I couldn’t leave my then- husband for him, and continued on the path to NC once the coworker left.
I figured it was one and done experience, because our marriage got better, but to my surprise 5 years later encountered an LO2 (while happily married at this time) from a male coworker who really started laying on the flirting thick, and WAS my type in many ways. He totally got in my head, which led to the worst limerence of my life. That’s when I sought therapy and the book about limerence and finally figured out what was going on.
I feel like limerence itself is a type of neurodivergence. For me, each one lasted about two years from start to finish. It lingered as long as it took to get itself to stop. All I could do was make sure I had all digital records, texts, and phone numbers deleted, and enacted total NC, and then day by day wait for it to slow down. I couldn’t force it to slow down and disappear; it had to do it on it’s own time.
Limerence sucks, but if it is limerence, it should have an expiration date if one forces herself into no contact, whether she feels like it or not.
💙
@Limerence nurse, I am glad medication worked for you for the dysthymia you were experiencing. I know that medication can help a lot of people, but I know that I am experiencing depression and anxiety because of my situation. Certain coping strategies help, but I really need to push myself to get out of my comfort zone and get out of the rut I’m currently experiencing. It’s certainly not a case of me being unable to experience joy, and I’m still basically holding it together at work. I enjoy a few drinks, but only at weekends, and I do limit myself to ensure it doesn’t go too far. My life hasn’t completely fallen apart, but it could be much better.
No contact did help me get over LO #1 (well, that and transference to LO #2). LO #3 feels different though, and I’m not prepared to go full no contact. I am already in fairly low contact mode with her, but I suspect that is because she is wary about leading on a married man. She doesn’t come out with us very often.
There are some signs my wife is beginning to see our marriage is over (although I have thought that before), and LO #3 just seems so perfect for me. There is a real chance I could be free to pursue a relationship with this lady in the not-too-distant future. For some reason, my wife suspects this. She correctly guessed that I have a thing for LO #3, even though they’ve never met. But as long as she doesn’t confront LO #3, I don’t much care. On the other hand, I recognize that there is probably little chance of me being with LO #3. Still, there are other women in my life I might have a shot with some day if my marriage ends, and I do feel like dating someone else would help me get over LO #3. I understand that is about 10 steps ahead of where I should be right now, but I do think it is prudent to at least think about the future.
Sorry, slight error in your user name. It should have been @Limerent nurse.
@heartbroken
I have a spouse who over the past year discovered that she was/is limerent. We just went through an incredibly hard year and it felt like we were finally coming through it. Then it began again with a new person this time, almost at the same time of year as the previous one. We have a beautiful family, and to be honest they are the only reason I am still holding on. I love my kids more than anything, but I no longer feel like I know my wife, and cannot take this heartbreak anymore. She can look me in the eye and justify, flat out lie about it, in her mind to protect me, but I know her and know that she is somewhere else. It is with me everyday, and has impacted my health and ability to enjoy so many parts of life that make up who I am.
I wish you all the best, and hope that you can find peace somewhere.
@Heartbroken, the circumstances of my husband’s limerence are almost identical to yours. The pain of it all is indescribable.
In regards to Dr. L’s inquiry about connected mental health issues, my husband’s limerence seems related to his mild OCD and addictive personality. In addition to discovering a very long text chain indicating a close, emotional relationship with a co-worker, I found thousands (not hundreds, THOUSANDS) of photos and screenshots of various subjects related to his LO. The photos were of her, her facebook posts, her hobbies & interests, (astrology, wicca, all sorts of strange stuff) things he saw online and out & about that reminded him of her, love songs, books, their respective horoscopes, etc. These were taken for a period of at least 2years. The list is very long, and all I can say is that the scene from “The Shining” where Wendy discovers what her husband had been up to for all those months, is the only way I can convey how I felt at the discovery. (cue the creepy music, & the look of horror on her face says it all.) Luckily, I stumbled upon this blog a few weeks later so at least started to get an inkling of what was probably going on.
Back to the related mental health conditions: He does agree that this is connected to his (mild)OCD, but when I try to ask him about his thoughts and feelings regarding his LE, but he gets defensive and angry. This all has been enormously traumatic and stressful for me, as I have also noticed that he lacks empathy for what I am going through and though he says he loves me and wants to stay married, he won’t elaborate, talk about our future, contemplate why this happened, or develop a plan to prevent its recurrence. After 30 years of marriage, I can say that this is very out of character for him, but I’ve seen from reading Dr.L’s articles and many of the readers’ comments, that “zombie spouse” is relatively common.
The thing that truly frightens me is that his massive change in communication and personality is consistent with early symptoms of frontotemporal dementia.
Is anyone here aware of a connection between limerence and eventual diagnosis of FTD?
Maybe this condition is one to add to the list of related disorders…
I noticed that we have three community members who are in a lot of pain. I want to share some resources for spouses of limerents. I hope that you three (Heartbroken, Giovanni and Libra SO) will find helpful information in these articles or the accompanying comments.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-project-dealing-with-limerence-in-marriage/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-a-marriage-recover-from-limerence/
The following article has my favorite comments section for spouses of limerents. I think you might find some strength if you read stories from people who went through similar struggles.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/dealing-with-limerence-in-marriage/
There are many other resources for spouses of limerents. I just shared a few.
Best wishes!
Thank you, Lovisa, and Dr.L! Finding this website has saved my sanity, as I am able to view my husband’s behavior from a very different perspective (neurodiversity/mental health issue) than when I first discovered it. It also helped me understand and get beyond the insane “hysterical bonding” phase which is apparently very common for spouses dealing with betrayal. Talk about questioning one’s sanity! The video on trauma response was very helpful.
You are very welcome, Libra SO. I’m sorry that you were questioning your sanity and I’m glad that you feel a little better about your understanding of what is happening with your SO.
I’m happy to help you through this trial in any way that I can. I think it’s important that I don’t mislead you. I am the limerent in my marriage. I have never been the SO of a Limerent. I just want you to know that my perspective is probably more aligned with your husband’s than yours.
Stay strong, Libra SO. You will get through this.
Hello Libra and other SOs who may read this today or maybe long away in the future.
I just want to reinforce the compassion and support given by Lovisa (as she always brings ! ).
Please feel free to keep connecting and commenting here.
I know the community on LwL are mainly limerents and the regulars can converse with in-jokes etc, however, mostly everyone is emotionally intelligent, respectful and trying to do the right thing and figure out the madness of limerence that we get caught up in and find so hard to get out of.
I personally find it very insightful and helpful to read about spouses perspectives to see the bigger ‘real life’ picture and impact away from my own altered intense internal thoughts.
Reading these comments is always a good wake-up to the executive brain to do more to tame the limerent brain.
I know Dr.L also really values SO’s inputs and experiences, so a very warm welcome !
Libra SO
I would say the anger and defensiveness from a limerent are out of guilt. We are acting out to our spouses what we want to internalize on ourselves. In my case I was fiercely defensive of my LO. Anytime my wife would bring up something even slightly pointed at LO I would defend her. It got to the point that I didn’t care if my wife thought LO and I were having a PA. All that mattered is that she didn’t tarnish LO’s name.
Perhaps this is what your husband is dealing with. Because if the LO isn’t manipulative when you talk, which feels like “attack”, to your husband about her, he gets defensive of her because if he is honest with himself, he knows he can’t defend his actions, so he takes up defending hers.
I was terribly protective of LO even in her interactions with other men. None of them deserved her. None of them could be trusted. I would watch her tirelessly to make sure she was safe. It was an exhausting mindset. Even still now almost three years later. When former co-workers still feel the need to update me on her life despite me maintaining NC.
You sound to be a very patient yet hurt wife. It’s big of you to deal with this as well as my wife did/does with mine. If he comes around and you can put this behind you, believe me he will appreciate your understanding despite probably feeling justified to do the opposite.
Yep. Volunteer work in order to be around my LO “helped” my OCD, anxiety, and depression. Except it didn’t. I was a ball of nerves trying to perceive whether other people guessed my true feelings or not, trying to determine where “the line” was, trying to read my LO, hoping for reciprocation while knowing that was wrong (we’re both married), etc. etc. etc.
Finally it all came to a head and I realized: “Hello, darkness my old friend.” I’m convinced limerence and OCD are different things, but having been to rock bottom and back with OCD, I realized the way these things are sneaky and deceptive and try to fool you into continuing to feed the beast.
To answer your questions…
I’ve been diagnosed with slight depression, bad ADHD, and chronic anxiety. Medicated for all.
I have PTSD from birth (You can ask about this one) and I have one serious phobia.
I also have a tendency for slight OCD.
I’ve had 5 LEs so far.
When I look at it in print, I look like a looney.:-)
Being limerent seems to have no effect on my other conditions.
The “altered state of mind”, obsession, and emotional pain are very strong.
The “altered state of mind” happens only with limerence. It is seriously like someone removed a module in my brain and plugged in a different one. It is very freaky for lack of a better term.
I’m 76, but thinking back, I had my PTSD and ADHD before my first LE, but I think there is no date correlations.
Hope this helps… Not afraid of statistics so I if you have questions, ask away!
Thank you for addressing this. I have been wondering about it.
I think I probably have ADHD (maybe AuDHD) but see no point to pursuing a diagnosis at this point in my life. My dad (b.1953) almost certainly has it and my daughter has it. Various family members also have autism, dyslexia and dyspraxia. Largely our needs are not behavioural or academic. I would like to understand more about a possible link for my daughter as well as myself.
• I do not think limerence changes other symptoms but can reframe them. I might be able to focus better on mundane tasks if I think LO will notice, so that’s an improvement!
• I know my ability to make rational decisions regarding my LO is severely impeded but it’s the same as usual regarding everything else. This is quite stressful, but maybe worth mentioning I do not have OCD, anxiety or depression.
Rejection sensitive dysphoria has been a challenge for me in all areas of my life but is particularly bad if LO doesn’t message me back or if I think I have made an idiot of myself in front of them.
• I have hyper-focussed on a few different things throughout my life and right now it’s a person, instead of an interest or hobby. Being limerent feels very much like ADHD hyper-focus to me. I have also hyper-focussed on LO’s field of interest.
• I did not know much about ADHD until my daughter’s teacher approached me to discuss the possibility of her having it. The more I learn about it, the more I can see it applies to me too and it must have affected me as a child. As I was not disruptive in school and achieved well enough academically, it was not noticed. I had a teenage crush which could maybe be called limerence but the really problematic episode is more recent and we are both married to other people. I think, therefore, that limerence started after ADHD but not by much.
• I think they are linked because even before I was married, I created my own barriers to relationships by way of Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria. The hyper-focus thing is also such a similar experience.
There may be helpful articles on Additudemag.com – there has definitely been things about addictive behaviours and RSD.
Not sure if they also do a podcast – good luck with that!
(from new readers posts)
Hi… My name is Bill and I’m a Limerent… Been sober for about 2 months…
I’m a 76 year old widower, retired male and deal with limerence as an old enemy. I’ve recently recovered from my 5th, and worst episode of limerence. You would think that at 75 your brain might respect your age… But NO.
After 35 years my wife passed away late summer of 2023. My grief was horrible. Two months after that, my limerence decided to emerge and find a victim (aka LO). And two months after that, a young, trembling voiced, pulmonologist whispered to me that I had lung cancer. My stoicism was blowing fuses faster than I could replace them. Grief, Cancer and Limerence… and the limerence, believe it or not, was psychologically the worst of the lot. As you may have guessed, my LE is almost devoid of elation.
Limerence never happens when I am married or in a relationship. Maybe I should practice the simple logic in that statement. I would be in a peaceful, slow time of my life, and like lightning on a sunny day… Zap! Welcome to the dark side!
I better explain that my LEs are always “clean”. By that I mean the LE involves only myself and the LO. Never a wife, husband, ex, etc. Makes it simpler? Maybe.
High School was the setting for two of my first episodes. Like this period is not stressful enough. My grades even took a hit. It disturb me so bad, I really though I would die before age 20. This was circa 1964.
My last recent LE was very dark and ugly. So I attacked the internet with a vengeance and found I was not mentally ill! Arming myself with the information I find here, I dare LE to go on the offensive again.
I’ve tried to keep this condensed. Questions, comments are very welcome.
Sorry, A writer I am not.
Care to All…. Bill
Hi Bill,
You seem like a very good writer to me. Your post moved me to respond (most don’t) with praise, sympathy, and a question. The praise I’ve already delivered, but it’s also unusual and striking that your limerence never occurs in a context which would betray a loved one (yours or another’s). The sympathy: what a trifecta of misery. My heart goes out to you. I hope the pulmonologist also whispered that your cancer may be treatable/curable.
And the question: Can you elaborate a bit on this fascinating statement: “Grief, Cancer and Limerence… and the limerence, believe it or not, was psychologically the worst of the lot. ” Can that really be true? Worse than grief for a beloved spouse, worse than cancer? Why is that? Maybe because you can do nothing about those other ordeals except see them through, i.e., there is very little uncertainty involved?
Hi Niniane,
I’m glad to see your response, thank you.
After reading various entries on this site, I feel relieved that my LEs did not affect a third party. A very welcomed bit of luck.
I knew there was a good chance the diagnosis would be lung cancer, but the young pulmonologist with soggy eyes needed some attention. Felt like it was maybe her second patient notification of the big “C”. Naturally wanted to give her a big hug, but used some calming words instead. I think it helped.
Soon to be cancer free, my steam pressure is up and I’m ready to be put back on the rails. Thanks for asking.
The question you asked fully verifies that the message was translated properly. “Can that really be true?” Absolutely! Can’t speak for everyone of course, but seems like I have X amount of grey matter for emotions. My spousal grief… OK. + Limerence… OK + Big “C”… emotional overflow. After the cancer news, my mind went numb, I felt more relaxed, and almost no anxiety. But after a week or so, the emotions and anxiety came back with Limerence way out in front with a few fluctuations and has remained until a few month ago.
I still remember being in a special recovery room after cancer surgery. It’s general anesthesia of course, so at first light of consciousness you are totally wiped out. As soon as my brain wheels start turning, the very first thought is of… anyone like to fill this in?… You guessed it, my LO. Not even general anesthesia could scramble the effects of LE.
Hope this helps a bit Niniane.
Dear Billybob,
I am very sorry to hear that you lost your wife. That must have been hard. I have only ever been properly limerent once and it was during a period of terrible family health problems and trauma. I have a question, if you don’t mind? You said that that your 5th LE after your wife died was the worst one and was ‘very dark and ugly’, devoid of elation. Do you think that falling into that LE was in any way related to the grief? That you might have used it as a coping strategy?
The reason I ask is because I believe that this is what happened to me. The difficulties I was going through eventually resulted in more than one death (one of them very traumatic). I was limerent the entire way through and it definitely helped me. I self-medicated with it, almost to the point where I sometimes feel as I though I should thank my LO for saving me – that is, preventing me from going where I really did not want to go in my mind. [I am never actually going to do that, of course].
If you look back at other LEs, did they happen at times of distress in your life?
I see in your post to Niniane that your cancer has been treated and it sounds as though you are on the road to recovery – how marvelous. And that your LE is also waning. If so, and if the limerence is associated with bad times, perhaps you can learn your triggers. Apologies if I am being simplistic and all the best to you.
P.S. I just came across this blog post on limerence and grief. I remember reading it at the time and being in the thick of it all myself. It brings back memories.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/on-grief/
Hi Bewitched,
Sorry to hear of what sounds like, multiple losses.
Wow! Interesting how your LO/LE displaced your unwanted thoughts. Even though your experience wasn’t exactly planned, it seemed to work well for you. I’m kind of jealous, but I got to love an LE story with a happy ending.
And yes, I think there was a link between the grief and the LE. Never even thought of using it as a coping strategy. However, there seems to be an automatic coping mechanism somewhere in my small brain, or anybody’s brain. There is no way I can keep grief, limerence and cancer as the top processes in my mind all at once. So in effect, my mind time shares those emotions. OK!? Alright!? Starting to smell funny… Like BS. Next Paragraph!
My previous LE’s would rear it’s head at very tranquil times in my life except for High School which can be considered somewhat stressful at the time.
I’m a newbie to this site and haven’t read as much as I would like, but did go to your link, and yes… very familiar territory.
I like your name. Bewitched is very synonymous with limerence.
Your not being simplistic and thanks much for your post. Take Care.
In my world nothing can be said to be certain, except death, taxes, and limerence. (sorry Ben)
Long time limerant and ADHD-er here. I’ve thought about this a lot and I’m sure there is a strong correlation between my ADHD symptoms and tendency towards limerance (and worse, susceptibility to affairs).
These include:
– poor impulse control, and indulging in behaviour I know is bad for me because it provides a reward/dopamine hit
– a tendency to daydream/fantasise, rather than be present in the moment
– a need to seek novelty, inability to stay content for long with the same job/partner/house etc
– related to the above, tendency to hyperfixate and become obsessive about new interests (including people).
Obviously not everyone with ADHD is a limerant or likely to have affairs, but I do think it probably makes you more susceptible. My Dad also has ADHD (and was diagnosed with NPD when he was younger) and has ended three marriages because of his affairs. Yikes. I am trying not to follow in his footsteps, but it does feel like I’m fighting my own cursed hardwiring sometimes.
Hi, Maggie,
Welcome to LwL!
Being a child of a narcissist can be very challenging. My last LO claimed her father was a narcissist. She’s a PsyD so she’s qualified to make that call. She had a blind spot for Narcs. I don’t know that she ever met one that she didn’t try to rehabilitate.
I recommend you check out these blogs from Shari Schreiber. I really like her work.
https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
https://sharischreiber.com/inside-attention-deficit-disorder/
I loved your video and graphics! Thank you, Dr L!
I’ll try to answer your questions. For reference, I was diagnosed with OCD as a teenager. As an adult, I was diagnosed with ADHD. I don’t know how everyone experiences OCD and ADHD, but for me, it isn’t always a struggle. Currently, my obsessions and compulsions don’t cause distress for anyone and I can focus on whatever needs my attention for the most part. It’s kind of like being a limerent. Sometimes you have limerence and sometimes you don’t. Right now, I am not struggling with limerence, OCD or ADHD so to answer your questions, I will focus on times when I was struggling. I hope that makes sense.
1. Does being limerent change the symptoms of your other condition?
Yes? Maybe? I was in a clinical depression when limerence woke me up. I don’t know if my depression had anything to do with ADHD or OCD.
2. Are some limerence symptoms especially strong for you?
Rumination and intrusive thoughts were strong for me.
3. Does the altered state of mind of limerence resemble the altered state of mind of the other condition?
OCD – I don’t think so.
ADHD – it doesn’t feel the same. The intrusive thoughts while I was limerent were far more distracting than my ADHD.
4. Did limerence set in about the same time as your other condition, or did they begin at different ages?
Different ages, definitely not at the same time. Not even close.
5. If you do feel that limerence is linked to another condition, can you explain why you feel that way?
I suspect that Borderlines are more vulnerable to becoming limerent because they experience intense emotions.
The UK podcast “Not as We Planned” would be an absolutely perfect place to discuss limerence and to promote the book. Tash and Carly are really lovely and I’m sure would welcome you!
I’m still in some kind of shock that a whole website, blog, videos and books are here for me to access about this thing that has taken over such massive chunks of my life. I honestly felt for years that I was just a deviant and that there was no one else experiencing this. To find a whole community of like-minded people and to find out that maybe half the people I meet have also been hiding this yearning is mind-blowing to me.
In answer to your main question, yes I do have comorbidities. I have exhibited symptoms of borderline personality disorder for about 20-25 years (I’m now 47). I have struggled with the stigma attached to this for most of my adult life. I have also recently started to realise that I have an anxious attachment disorder, though I have not explored this yet.
I stopped drinking alcohol 20 years ago and would consider that I have a very addictive personality. I have experienced PTSD after a traumatic first childbirth and I suffered postnatal and perinatal depression and anxiety around my second and third pregnancies, resulting in a 3 month stay in a Mother and Baby Unit after experiencing psychosis following the birth of my third baby during covid.
I have been psychiatrically hospitalised 7 times in my life – 4 times for depression and self harm, once in a therapeutic community, once for anorexia and once for postnatal depression and psychosis.
Well, Ellie, you’re definitely not alone.
I recommend that you read the Shari Schreiber link I posted above.
https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
Some of it might resonate with you.
I did read this, thank you! I resonated with a lot of it. This and some other things I’ve read have given me some tools to start to approach the issue with my therapist. I got pretty close to telling her this week, but felt myself shut down and so kept it more vague. I’ve not asked her if she has heard of limerence yet, but I’m hoping to do that next week and then see where it takes me.
I can’t let go of the therapy yet, though I do know that this might need to happen if my limerence gets too overwhelming. I actually can see that telling her might make it dissipate, so I’m going to try that before I terminate our sessions and go NC.
Thank you again for replying to my comments.
I have been diagnosed with mild depression and anxiety, but I don’t know if there is any connection with limerence. I have only had two really intense limerent episodes in my life. My current one hit me unexpectedly and was extremely unwelcome. I am 72 and have been divorced for just over 20 years. I don’t date and was not looking for a man. I have a friendship with my LO, who is gay, but I am far more interested in spending time with him than he is with me. I am finding that the relationship may be causing me more pain than I can handle, so I am trying to avoid him. He will be selling his house and moving a long distance away within a matter of months, and frankly, I think it’s all for the best.
This is all too exhausting, and ultimately unrewarding.
“Does being limerent change the symptoms of your other condition?”
It accelerates or enhances my already existing anxious attachment issues. Found someone you like to be around? Someone whose company you enjoy? Well, she’s gonna leave you so enjoy it while you can. Everyone leaves you at some point.
“Are some limerence symptoms especially strong for you?”
I guess I would say the initial attachment, the glimmer. It was like “that” drink that finally gets you “there” and you are in euphoria. Your reasoning out the door. Your inhibitions gone. She went from a pleasant co-worker to the closest thing to Eve thing mankind will ever see. Now when that point in knowing her actually was I would say I could make a good guess but honestly couldn’t pinpoint it 100%.
“Does the altered state of mind of limerence resemble the altered state of mind of the other condition?”
Actually I think it changed my then mild attachment fears. At the time I’d been with my wife for 22 years and I was finding solid ground to not have to worry she would leave for someone better. So limerence basically took all the progress I had made and threw it out the window as far as she was concerned. Leaving me back at square one with the anxious attachment with my wife and starting my anxiousness with fresh with her. I now feared two women I had affection for would find someone better. So now it was twice as bad trying to juggle two relationships.
“Did limerence set in about the same time as your other condition, or did they begin at different ages?”
I think my anxious attachment started in childhood. I had very loving, yet distant parents. My mother had high expectations for me despite being very affectionate. My father was there as a father should be. Provider, protector; but he struggled with expressing emotion. So while I was cared for in practical ways as parents should I still felt alone. And since then I have tried to fill that void. That my wife and I were struggling in our marriage before she came around, limerence filled that void of feeling alone again.
“If you do feel that limerence is linked to another condition, can you explain why you feel that way?”
I don’t feel that limerence, at least in my case, is linked to my anxious attachment. In my case I feel it was just a number of factors that all fell together at the right time. Trying to find a place in our marriage again where I felt wanted (and when I mention my marriage I am in no way saying this was all on my wife, it was a shared struggle of both of our faults), hitting middle age and looking back longingly to the “good old days” and being uncertain about the future. And then here she comes. Making me forget about all my troubles and being able to be in that altered state of mind that felt so good.
Hi Dr L,
This is an interesting question (mental health & limerence connections) so I wanted to add my answers to your questions.
“Does being limerent change the symptoms of your other condition?”
I think that I suffer from (mild) OCD. My OCD flares when I am anxious. Limerence didn’t necessarily make my OCD worse. Actually, I would say that my anxiety lifted when was limerent as I was mostly very happy. Even when limerence ‘went bad’ and I decided that I wanted out of it, limerence was a net positive experience in changing the way I was headed in life. So anxiety probably reduced, overall.
“Are some limerence symptoms especially strong for you?”
Rumination. I am an enthusiastic ruminator, at the best of times, but limerence caused this to go to a whole new level. Most of the time, LO-rumination was not as anxiety inducing as my regular rumination, so I am not sure that this aspect particularly harmed me, in fact it was probably a good coping strategy for other traumas happening at the time.
“Does the altered state of mind of limerence resemble the altered state of mind of the other condition?”
I wouldn’t have thought so, no. My OCD is definitely anxiety-related. It gets worse when I am under stress and I would not have said that it got worse when limerence started up.
“Did limerence set in about the same time as your other condition, or did they begin at different ages?”
Separate times.
“If you do feel that limerence is linked to another condition, can you explain why you feel that way?”
I don’t think it is, to be honest. For me, I only had one LE and it was a doozy. It took years and years to clear. But it served a clear function in my life – to self medicate out of some very stressful and traumatic life events; and secondly, to reassess what was important in my middle age.
Songs of the Blog:
“Crazy” – Patsy Cline (1961)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrhFH4UTrw0
I really like this song. I played duet of it, him on bass clarinet, me on oboe.
“Crazy Love” – Poco (1978)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIZt2uyu4-4
“Crazy On You” – Heart (1976)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADAeIokKKNs
The last two songs are associated with LO #1.
And, this from DrL:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/and-i-want-you-so-its-an-obsession/
It’s one of my favorite blogs. If you’re a Eurythmics fan, there are more songs in the comments.
Omg! How funny, that Eurythmics song is one of my favorite songs ever! My Dad used to love Annie Lennox…and I’ve known that one since I was a pre-teen. It used to feel almost illicit to listen to it. To me the little uh’s in that song are so important. The words are true and I internalized them for sure, but then the uh’s are like…from this deeper place – a physical place, something so deep there are not words at that point. A masterpiece.
@CSC,
Ask Dad if he remembers this one.. It’s one of their underrated classics. I love this one. Plus Annie’s voice on this is superb..
-Eurythmics
“It’s alright” (Baby’s coming back)
https://youtu.be/gf_OsStVpzs?si=FmRZVQmqpr8LJ2cJ
It strikes me as funny how limerence is supposedly quite rare, but there is so much music and art that seems to explore themes relating to limerence. Many songs make me think of my LOs, the life altering state that is limerence and the mental state of wanting someone so badly it hurts, but the following two are the most profound and come closest to describing actual limerence:
Stricken, by Disturbed. Even the singer mentioned that this song is about being completely infatuated with someone. A few years back, someone else mentioned that the lyrics are absolutely spot-on in describing the insanity of limerence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I77mjesUbkw
Can’t Shake You, by Santers. This is about having a serious infatuation over someone and being unable to get over her. The band isn’t that well known, but I think it’s a great 80s classical rock song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xyr6eIdRsQQ
I remember Stricken. Didn’t realize it was about limerence. 🙂 (It is hard for me to understand a lot of rock lyrics, anyway, between the poetics and the loud guitars. 🙂 )
And oh yes, the Eurythmics song. 🙂
This says it all for me…
https://youtu.be/lX0ws6y7p5g?si=MzQxpjfTcdbUdgTP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjwkXYB4nHs
3:51
“I’m a driver, I’m a winner
Things are gonna change, I can feel it”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgSPaXgAdzE
Since we’re all going crazy here, I’ll add one of my common 80s faves.
Tired, overplayed and so popular at the time, but who could forget..
-Madonna
“Crazy for you”
https://youtu.be/DHutZXREZ0E?si=oW7BaR36T7HxHT2d
Perfect words for the limerent. Not to mention her voice is magnificent here and she looked so good too.. 😂
I have never been diagnosed with anything. But I have a family history on my father’s side. He was diagnosed with depression. To this day I wonder if he was bipolar. He had dramatic mood swings, explosive anger, and then had to go to bed for days after a breakdown. This happened often. Very. I used to dread setting him off. I am depressed sometimes. My depression comes with anxiety (or vice versa).
Does being limerent change the symptoms of your other condition?
I do feel euphoria, to start, and when I get a “dose”. My mind alive with possiblities, spinning with the delicious challenges and possiblities….But…after a time of intermittent reward, uncertainty, etc… my depression and anxiety go off the chart. The final days of LE’s are grey, then black, black days. I’ll be in a stupor of worthlessness for a while.
Are some limerence symptoms especially strong for you?
Euphoria: I once walked home after time with an XLO to a street 2 blocks from my house. In my mind, I was walking to that street, to that spot, to go “home.” …but I had never lived on that street. No idea why I thought I did. It was 2 blocks from where I actually lived. I was so out of my mind with bliss I forgot where I lived, actually thinking I lived somewhere else, close, but not accurate. I have also been known to put milk into the cupboard instead of the fridge, lose things, and otherwise do disturbing, forgetful things, during limerence – not just in the euphoric stage, but throughout.
Intrusive thoughts: Yes, all the time. Everything I do, everything I see, every choice I make, begins to spin outward from LO’s centerpoint. They are on my mind all the time. I see something beautiful, I want to show them. I have a thought, I want to know what they would think. I look at myself in the mirror, I try to see myself through their eyes…this lasts til the end-phases of limerence, until I start coming back to myself. It’s like a constant thing. The intrusive thoughts can be fantasies, or they can be horrible anxious thoughts…where is LO, what are they doing, did I do something…very negative. But they go on and on.
Does the altered state of mind of limerence resemble the altered state of mind of the other condition?
Yes, it resembles anxiety, in that it’s like a snowball-effect. My brain will not stop spiraling on things that have not happened. Either fantasies, or what-ifs…it’s horrible. But it’s not exactly like anxiety…anxiety is a component. It gets bigger and bigger, taking everything over.
Did limerence set in about the same time as your other condition, or did they begin at different ages?
I don’t remember. I have had troubles all my life. I think limerence set in as a kind of…habit….in my teens. If I really think about it, I think I began to engage in it as a way to focus on something. My first LO wasn’t even someone I was attracted to. He was just…there. And I needed something to do. I would use LO’s reactions to me as a kind of challenge…almost a game. I had a very stressful home-life, and socially, I felt often like a reject. I guess I used an LO as a way to challenge myself to be accepted…for instance, every night, I would write in my journal, what happened with LO that day, and then, make a plan for the next day, what I would wear and do…to try and have success. I enjoyed trying to put on my makeup, do my hair, make myself presentable and attractive. Could I be attractive *enough* to get what I wanted? ….It kept me busy. It was not hellish, though. Just…engrossing. Now that I am in middle age, this behavior isn’t quite the same. But, it’s hellish now. It’s truly, truly torture. It’s not just about whether I am attractive enough. I am falling in love with my LO’s and then having to fall out. It’s not a game, unless you call falling into a dark hole and clawing out a game.
If you do feel that limerence is linked to another condition, can you explain why you feel that way?
Aaggh. It’s linked to everything, with me. Anxiety, depression…grief. I think it’s also linked to just…my desperation (chronic) to finally be wholly loved and accepted. To not be a total reject. I don’t know much about attachment theory…from what I do know, I think I never really felt love/acceptance from either of my parents. It pains me to say this. They tried. But I think they were also damaged, and never really saw me as a child, who could not help herself. My home was unstable, but weirdly stable in that I knew my Mom would never leave. She would sacrifice me, to stay with Him. My childhood was very, very lonely, and I have been lonely all my life. While I’ve had “friends”, I believe most people can’t truly be trusted, so best not to put too much faith in them. However “normal” people manage to have love, or families, I cannot imagine.
I am coming to feel what I am suffering from is a kind of….lifelong grief. I am working hard to learn more about it, to maybe even heal myself, if I can. I am not totally negative…but I struggle against it every day. I believe there is a future for me. I actually believe I can help myself- even if I have to do it alone. But, I also feel I am up against some heavy, heavy stuff. I am not sure if I could even handle “healthy” love. It might repel me.
In a way, my lonely path is my strength. I have strong inner knowledge and resolve. Life is poetic, I am able to understand others suffering, deeply, to see very deeply into a certain part of existence. But the price: I struggle.
So, there you go, Dr. L! oof.
Beyond neurodivergence, I don’t think I have any kind of mental health issues that would affect limerence. (The neurodivergence probably does.) My SO, however, is undiagnosed but even he has wondered if he’s bipolar. I think that’s what helps drive my own limerence. I keep ending up with guys who have some kind of issue—bipolar or NPD or the like—and then I have crushes on guys who also have some kind of issue. Then an SO or LO treats me badly and my heart turns to someone who seems kinder, at least at the time. Sometimes they are; sometimes they aren’t. I don’t know why I keep falling for guys with issues. 😛 (Maybe the neurodivergence makes it harder to detect in time?) Then I married one, so I’m kind of stuck. Last two LO’s have been very nice to me to this day, are good, longterm friends (and latest LO is mutually attracted).
PDA autism profile where “people obsessions” take the form of autistic special interest. ADHD hyperfocus. And then limerence. Beautiful combination… Had my first limerence experience when I was 11 and have had too many to count since then. Also, some confusing queer elements involved in my case, which is why I would love to get to read some insights on how e.g. internalized homophobia triggers limerence…
This. My LOs have always been women, though I consider myself a heterosexual woman. 9 years of marriage to a man and 3 children, but still hopelessly infatuated with women who “look after” me. Either I’m actually gay or I just have major mummy issues.
This is very similar to the story of my life! Been together with my heterosexual husband for 25 years, three children. And the objects of my limerence are always women, older than myself! I am assuming I am not straight myself, but since I just had a recent infatuation with yet another adorable older woman, I am at the moment wondering if I could actually have been lesbian all the time and the limerence episodes would be a symptom of this. Fascinating to hear someone could relate, even partly! This has been unbelievably confusing to me, all my life, and still is. And I suffer.
Hello PJ.
It’s so nice to hear from someone else who has experienced this. My LOs have been teachers, doctors, nurses, therapists. Always women.
I did try exploring my sexuality when I was in my twenties, but I’m quite repressed and struggle to articulate my needs so it just felt too overwhelming. When my husband came along, I was just relieved to be able to be “normal” and not worry about it any more.
Unfortunately, I still fell in limerence for at least 3 women while married.
We split up last year and my mum died and I have recently started therapy. The therapist is exactly my “type” and I was a bit wary from the start but it seemed to be ok until recently, the glimmer has started. I’ve decided to broach it with her and am trying to do exactly that but have so far spent 2 sessions only really talking about attachment and childhood unmet needs. I’ve also tried to find out if she will need to stop our sessions and I think she won’t.
It is so hard because I know I need to bring this to therapy as it’s fundamental, but it is also terrifying as the feelings are developing. However, it would be less meaningful therapy if the feelings weren’t there and I am really starting to trust her.
Ellie,
” My LOs have been teachers, doctors, nurses, therapists.”
Don’t get me started on nurses. I married a teacher and, LO #2 & LO #3 were nurses and LO #4 is a PsyD. We have similar tastes.
Have you ever considered your attraction to them? IMO, it’s something worth exploring.
Did you read the article I linked to your post above? I’m curious as to what you might think of it.
Using the disclaimer that I’m not a mental health professional, I do have some questions.
– What was your childhood like?
– Do you have unresolved trauma in your past?
– Do you have a goal in mind for therapy? Dr. Marion Solomon contends that when many people enter therapy, they’re not seeking true change, they’re seeking to become comfortable in their current pathology.
Some therapists are better than others. Only ~10% of any iceberg is visible above the surface and it isn’t what you can see that sinks you.
Best of luck!
(Sorry if there’s any mistakes, English isn’t my first language.)
I’m 18 and I was recently diagnosed with autism. I’ve had a few “proto-limerence” experiences, but I’m currently going through what I would consider my first actual LE.
My autistic traits became more obvious when I was 12-13. That happens to be around the same time I started experiencing proto-limerence. My special interest was (and still is) music, so I would spend a lot of time daydreaming about that. The daydreaming has only gotten worse since I met LO.
Does the altered state of mind of limerence resemble the altered state of mind of the other condition? Kind of. Autism already makes it hard to approach other people and predict their behavior. Add the altered state of mind of limerence to that… I will spend hours trying to think of the right thing to say to impress LO and rehearsing conversations that end up never happening.
If you do feel that limerence is linked to another condition, can you explain why you feel that way? At least with autism, I guess being obsessed with someone could be interpreted as a special interest. But that’s just my case.
“I will spend hours trying to think of the right thing to say to impress LO and rehearsing conversations that end up never happening.”
Aria
I can’t speak for autism, but as an introvert I can much relate to this. I triple thought out, went over scenarios, over thought past interactions with her. I agonized over every single thing I said, was going to say, what I did and what I was going to do. It was exhausting. But I had to say and do everything perfectly because limerence told me she was perfect. So I couldn’t be any less than perfect for her.
It’s been almost 3 years since she left my life. And I am still at times plagued with intrusive thoughts of what would I do if I ever saw her again. What would I say to her? Would a friendly hug be out of line? How would she react to seeing me? Would she even remember me? What if you weren’t wearing the perfect outfit?
Yeah it sucks. But don’t let an old man get long winded. Just wanted to say reading your post that statement really stood out to me and want to say I know how you feel to a degree.
A tribute to Roberta Flack (1937-2925)
“The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face” (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSrKff0w6CU
My favorite:
“Killing Me Softly” (1973)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEbi_YjpA-Y
R.I.P.
ha – omg @Limerent Emeritus I was going to post “The First Time…” here today, too!
IDK if you’ve ever seen the American Masters about her – but it’s definitely worth watching. She was such a force. So intelligent and so gifted…it was a great and comprehensive tribute to her genius.
I’m just theorizing here. I have had depression in the past and have a disorganized attachment style (both anxious and avoidant on a pendulum).
I was not depressed during my limerence episode.
I was being both anxious and avoidant in my primary relationship with my SO. When SO withdrew was when I developed limerence for LO. It was that clear: 3 months after I thought SO was no longer interested, BAM, I fell for LO. I now think it was like when I felt the pair bond had ended, I needed to pair bond immediately with someone new. Enter glimmery LO.
With LO, I was definitely almost purely anxious (this is interesting) … it never got to the point where I was triggered by perceived excessive closeness to start pushing away in the avoidant stage of my attachment cycle. It would have been interesting to know if I would have if a relationship with LO had developed in a normal way. My bets are on that I would have: it did with a previous LO that I started dating, so I don’t see why this would have been different.
I never did a pure NC, but did a controlled LC. I did finally get over the limerence – by getting into a slightly emotional space with someone else. This did not become limerence (thank goodness) and it was over very quickly, but it “did the job” to get me out of limerence once and for all. This only took all of two years from start to end of the limerence episode.
Hi All. Many thanks for all the brilliant contributions so far. Really interesting stuff.
I think this is going to be a topic that runs and runs, and hopefully gives us a lot of insight into how individual the limerent experience can be…
Hi LaR,
I think the other coffeehouse is closed,
but I’m curious- why is it fragrant on Primrose Hill? Didn’t notice anything 25 years ago🙈
I also liked Greenwich Park, by the way, but Trifles might not have enough time to go there.
Could it be the zoo?
Thanks for the tips LaR and Mila!
I will visit one of the parks no matter the weather.
Mila, Trifles
Once or twice I’ve found it can get quite ‘Green’ up Primrose Hill …
A-ha, I was expecting worse! 😂
Mila is on-point with her Greenwich recommendation btw. You can have a mean time there 🙉
Huh? Still don’t get it. Must be the severe cold that I suddenly got (and that will be the reason I’ll cancel dinner for XLO and family..)
Sorry Mila for my cryptic-ness. People have been known to sometimes smoke a few more ‘exotic’ things up there and cause the air to become green and fragrant.
Personally I think Trifles’ idea of the stench from the zoo animals was funnier!
Hope you feel better soon. Is avoidance of the family meal with LO a net positive?
LaR,
Ah sorry, now I understand! Well, who knows what Trifles‘picnic might consist of;)
It’s not really avoidance, I’m really too sick for guests, wouldn’t get through an evening like that. (and infect everyone on top).
But I can’t say that I’m very sad about it. I think I‘m still in a phase where I haven’t fully accepted that he simply isn’t the person I thought he is, that he cares very much about me but cannot show it in ways that would be helpful for me. I get these resentful reactions and maybe it’s good to let more time pass.
It would anyway be an evening full of small talk and work for my SO (he‘s the one who cooks at these occasions because he‘s very good at it), no real connection, only creating a nice atmosphere for him and his SO, and maybe it would just fuel this resentment I want to get rid of.
Mila,
Sorry to hear you’re feeling sick again; please don’t stress yourself with any social “obligations” even with xLO! Taking care of ourself physically, emotionally and mentally is everyone’s top priority; otherwise, we can’t be in a top hat to beneficially interact with others.
Ah, that unacceptance and resentment of xLO….sorry to nag again: each of us MUST somehow accept who our LO was/is, and what LE was/is; ABSOLUTELY nothing we could mentally or realistically do about it.
I still catch myself occasionally slipping into bits of regrets and resentments in my xLE, but merely acknowledging and observing them, so they would all dissipate quickly. Stoic mentality, creativity, or just Netflix really helped… the Past is in the Past…
Feel better soon! 🫂
Have to edit what I just said previously —
One can do something about one’s LE: change/correct old perspectives of it — accept that a lot of or some of our thoughts about ourselves and LO were/are illusions during or even after LE, out of our altered state of mind.
About LO or anyone else, only they can change themselves when they determine to and and actually do it.
Hi Snow,
that’s what I‘m trying to do, but I think (pardon me) it’s a much easier job when there is no frequent contact with XLO like in your case, there’s no friendship at stake and one has space to develop this mentality. That’s why I try to have less contact but that in itself proves difficult .
I know you think I should get over myself, but I’ve come so far with time and going over the same stuff again and again, the strategy seems to work, so I allow myself to ignore your impatience and take my time to go on and on;)
Thank you for your wishes! Just slept a few hours but not feeling better somehow- patience here also required 🙄
Mila,
“I know you think I should get over myself,”
Umm…that’s not what I was thinking. I just disliked to see you in “irritating pain” and wish(ed) that you were irked much less by your ‘non-fully acceptance’, is it on an intellectual or emotional level?
I ask because in my case, even when I has intellectually fully accept that xLO’s personality and behaviors were/are beyond my control, emotionally, those bit of old resentment and regret (after years) still occasionally resurfaced to annoy me, particularly when I physically felt/feel down (like now still bothered by the sore nerve while sitting long and needing constant stretches).
“but I’ve come so far with time and going over the same stuff again and again, the strategy seems to work, so I allow myself to ignore your impatience and take my time to go on and on;)”
It’s not a matter of “impatience” (should I feel it?), but I forgot that your coping strategy — voice out your thoughts and emotions in writing, while I mostly held within — treating it as a private matter, like taking a mental shower or bath… — a habit trained by COO (psychologically very unhealthy — building a volcano within, which would explode sooner or later)
Just watched DrL’s video of today and could not help think how the Friend-Ship of yours and LaR’s (with your respective xLO/MFF could stand up against the LE’s residual/persistent waves….
I totally agree with you that less contact with/“avoidance” of xLO would definitely help rewire our LE infected/affected brain, in accordance with Dr L’s video.
Keep feeling better.
Hi Snow,
Thanks for your input!
yes, I seem to need to go through stuff again and again on my way forward. I think it’s a matter, as you say, of brain having recognized the truth but emotions are behind.
Maybe it’s also still a kind of grief that this person I thought he were doesn’t exist.
I think I just need more space and time with this.
Actually, circumstances are in my favor anyway, time and distance will do their thing for sure. So maybe I’m the one being impatient that I‘m not already at peace of mind🙈
I hope your back is getting better steadily! I should do some stretches myself but feel too sick, but I know I will pay for it. Lying in bed for a long time doesn’t do the back any good..
I feel like you’re both right: Snow about where we need to come to with acceptance and ‘correcting’ our brain’s distortions in the end; Mila with the fact that this only ever happens at its own pace (we can’t force it), and that it is much complicated by LO’s presence, contact and the wish for friendship.
I’m much earlier in this journey than Mila. My feelings for LO/MFF have become much more neutral now. She has definitely stopped ‘encouraging’ my limerence (starved hope, if you like) since our frank discussion about ‘parameters for the friendship’ etc a few weeks ago. For now, I can mostly accept that and see it as a net positive. My limerence has – truthfully – ramped down an awful lot since, things with my SO are much better, and I have a more holistic view of LO, seeing both good and bad sides. The sometimes-negative feelings towards LO (I paraphrase) that Mila has reported feeling do also jar away at me in the background, but haven’t become too strong as yet. I think it takes time, Mila, and this uncertain part might be a stage we just need to work through (perhaps you more than me, because of your xLO’s unusual communication style) if we want to have a friendship with xLO on the other side.
Or maybe that wish is indeed futile – we shall see in both cases, but neither of us have given up yet. I’ll have to watch DrL’s latest video to key into your point about that, Snow.
As I’ve said before, there aren’t many on LwL who are successfully holding down friendships with their xLOs (I acknowledge Lovisa as a notable exception – one or two departed posters also managed it). I have never thought it would be an easy place to get to, and still don’t. Without disclosure, there’s quite a lot of tacit re-negotiation involved.
I think I was right – and it was the skunk 😂
Boom!!!
Damn those stinky skunks.
On the subject of skunks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hszg0n3tNcE#ddg-play – “Pepe Le Pew – I’m Pepe, your lover!”
For those of you unfamiliar with Pepe, Pepe was a character in the Warner Bros franchise. Pepe is a skunk, Penelope is a Tux cat that gets a white strip painted down her back.
Pepe was one of my favorite WB toons.
Pepe LaPew …. wow I was learning about limerence as kid and I didn’t even know it.
Or consent.
I guess it depends on your perspective.
Adam,
Did you ever watch Rocky & Bullwinkle? That show was rife with adult undercurrents, especially Cold War humor.
I remember that one time my parents left me with a family friend for the evening. They didn’t have kids. I liked them because they had the only color TV in the neighborhood.
The husband asked what I normally did in the evening. I told him that I watched cartoons. He said we’d watch cartoons. As he watched it, he said, “This show is not for children.” I told him that it was.
He replied, “No, it’s not.”
I remember Pepe le Peu but not Rocky & Bullwinkle. I loved Pepe but I did feel very sorry for that female cat, sheesh he was persistent ….
Your neighbour was obviously a funny guy, LE, not to mention a good ‘un – letting the kid decide what to watch. That never happened with the adults in my life 🙂
L.E.
Yeah I watched it some during the 80’s because my grandmother had cable back then. I probably didn’t “get” things that I wasn’t suppose to get. It was just a talking squirrel and moose to mr. But I actually remember the Mr Peabody section of the show more than Rocky & Bullwinkle. “Quiet you!”
I didn’t grow up with a TV at all until I was a teenager so the only chance I got to watch TV was at grandmother’s house and I was always looking cartoons with all the channels that she had.
Sheesh, Adam! Your Jehovah’s Witness upbringing was far more strict than my Mormon upbringing.
Hi @L-A-R or LaR
Yes, the other coffeehouse is closed, as @Mila noted! So, I hope it’s ok if I can reply here to your reply re: Death of Hope — well, that topic sounds uplifting, huh? Thank you so much for sharing that resource with me. You nailed it. That is the point I am almost, almost at…so close…gotta crest Hopeless Hill!
I know you said I am possibly not quite ready to starve hope off…But I think I am getting to that point. It won’t be pretty, but after more than a week of not being in his physical presence, I feel slightly more steely toward the whole thing, and that is new. He also has not replied to my text, which speaks volumes about reality as opposed to the fantasy I’ve been latched onto. Let’s face it….
I am not a priority for him.
He is not going to start caring the way I’d like him to.
And I couldn’t make him care…even if I tried.
To know this feels bad. I await the relief of accepting it. Maybe that acceptance is the true Death of Hope. I think it might be. Maybe, acceptance is a nice way of putting it…I really like Death of Hope, though. Let’s not put lipstick on the pig. (Ok, or if we do, let’s get the pig their own lipstick, and not share our lipstick with them, for sanitary reasons.) haha
I feel sad, resentful, embarrassed, flawed, pathetic, rejected…my heart hurts. Nothing any other limerent hasn’t felt, I’m sure.
Last time I tried NC I will admit, it was to draw him in (it worked, til it didn’t.) This time…I feel different. Maybe that’s why they say it can take several relapses til true Hope-Death sets in. I am slow, but I’m learning…
I’ll step back, lick my wounds. I’ll do my yoga, meditate, take it easy on myself, and just…wait to feel more regulated again. I have nothing else to give him. I gave the best I had. It wasn’t enough. As a rule, I don’t give more once I know I gave the best I had. There is no point.
In the meantime, I’ve done my bookkeeping and managed a rather complicated yoga arm balance today. If nothing else is glimmering in my life, my yoga practice has been there for me. And that has been a comfort.
I hope you’re having a peaceful day, and an interesting one, LaR. Thank you for being there for me, and for your instinctive mention of the Death of Hope. I am hoping to attend the funeral soon.
With care, CSC
@MJ
I’m so glad you saw my message 🙂 thank you for replying and sharing more about what you’ve been through.
When you excerpted…
“We all, I think, try and do the best we can, to survive. Few of us are outright manipulators. Most, of not all, including the manipulators…are…dealing with things that happened to us.”
and said
“I think this is somewhat ballpark of the current place she’s in but I cannot confirm it.. I just try to be her friend for now and enjoy challenging myself not to take things too far or drive in limerent nature. Limerence isn’t just a crush, it’s soul crushing and it’s real and I never want another person to affect me in that way again.”
The funny thing is, I was talking about you, not LO. I was thinking how (seemingly?) hard you feel toward how you acted long ago…meaning that even if you behaved badly, your former self deserves compassion that only you can give. You are not a bad person, if you did some “bad” things. Easy to say, hard to feel…I’m sure you’d give me the same compassion…but ha, I would struggle to accept it within myself. So, I say this and I mean it, but, I know it isn’t something one just does, all of a sudden forgiving themselves. Would that it were that easy. We’d all live in a different world, I bet.
As for crying more for LO than you did for your Mom…Yeah. I will say I have thought the same in my own life, regarding LO and my Dad. My Dad died last summer and I will admit…there was a moment where I thought “Oh, I can post that my Dad died, and maybe LO will take the bait.” Yes, I will admit that. It is awful. But I feel that being truthful here is what will heal…me, and maybe anyone else who reads that.
Yeah, and LO did take the bait. And I got a heartfelt message from him. I was soaring. Even though five days before, I held my Dad’s hand as he left the world. I was so addicted to LO that I used my Dad’s one death – the one death he had…to literally emotionally bait a person who is a mere tangent to my life. That is the importance, the attraction, the desire, I had for LO (and would still have, if I was not in a very tenuous NC state right now….ugh….) Talk about guilt. Yeah. My God. How I have behaved…
As for your family, your in-laws, and feeling that you turned your back on your God…that is a hard thing to feel. On top of all the rest. I once heard someone say that God is an acronym for “good orderly direction” and I thought that was interesting. Maybe, without knowing it, that direction is much larger than what happens in one single season, a few years, or part of one’s life. The larger question is, on balance, are you going in the direction, or not. To me, it seems you very much are.
Well, I’m about to start my day – I have to send my accountant all my tax stuff…haha. I’d almost rather be going through my limerent fire here. But, honestly, taxes are more fun than limerence. 🙂
Be well, friend! Enjoy your coffee wherever you are!
I often wonder if God didn’t send me LO. The amount of circumstances that had to come together for me to have met and worked with her were so many and so out of my hands, that there is no way it was all coincidences.
I haven’t told the pastor or any of the other brothers or sisters the specifics. But have commented on the things, out of my control, that happened to me for me to find the church. One sister told me there was no way I found their little church tucked away out in the country by accident. She said that God was guiding me to his light because he has a purpose for me and what happens in my life.
I remember telling a brother (with the vague explanation of “the other woman”) that I didn’t deserve God’s grace or forgiveness. And he said “no one does that’s why Jesus died for us.” “That’s why God gives us the Holy Spirit to reside in us. It was Jesus’ sacrifice that made it possible.”
MJ my brother I know all too well about past sins and guilt. I have estranged my birth family and now have hurt my own family. And possibly caused LO distress. All for sins of the flesh. Mine were just different than yours. I know how wallowing guilt is so much easier than trying to forgive yourself, much less believe that other people caught in the wake of our sins can.
I think God has a lesson to teach me. And if he did it seems harsh and unnecessary. But that’s maybe because I HAVEN’T learned the lesson yet. LO and her daughter will always reside in my heart. And I don’t think that is contrary to the direction God is trying to guide me to. LO was just the instrument he used. Perhaps I was arrogant that Satan could not tempt me in my marriage. And God needed to humble me to the point that I would forever be on the look out from being tempted by Satan. I still haven’t figured it out yet. But I will keep on reaching out to God to help me in my life. I pray for LO and her daughter in same prayer I do for Momma and our sons. I pray for forgiveness for what I have done to all involved and for God to watch over them and keep them safe.
I totally get it. I was the one to go NC with a previous LO who turned out to be narcissistic, but I knew he was watching my posts online. Years ago, I posted about things in my life wondering if he’d take the “bait,” including the death of a parent. Heck, he still watches, so I still do this.
CSC,
Thanks for the reply. I am glad you had a better day (all is relative), got the yoga and bookkeeping in, and feel more steely now. I said you’d know your own feelings way better than we would here and I will be pleased to be wrong about what I said. Don’t beat yourself up if you relapse – just reset.
I’m trying to starve hope while LO is still in my presence often and do think I’m getting there now. But it has never been smooth and linear. And it’s tiring. Go easy on yourself.
LaR is how a majority go with my hastily chosen LwL handle, but it varies – I have answered to worse in my time 😀
@LaR
🙂 Yes, slightly more steely. But definitely more wobbly in that then I’d like to be.
I watched an Alan Robarge (sp?) thing about “Conscious Contact” if you can’t go “No Contact” and I enjoyed considering the differences between those options.
It sounds like, for you, Conscious Contact is happening. I can only imagine how hard it is. Probably just as hard as NC…but requiring more endurance. I am sure it’s exhausting, and I hope you too will be easy with yourself.
The thing is, with me, I can’t relapse unless he reaches out. And I’m certainly not going to trot off to where he physically is, so I can feel extra worthless. So, I’m more like NC by default.
haha – So my efforts are not a true act of stamina, because I have no choice (and am bolstered by my utterly insufferable, practically Napoleonic level of pride.) You, on the other hand…are coping ongoing with your LE at an advanced level, surgically, patiently, painstakingly. 🙂
CSC,
You are really amusing – “I have no choice (and am bolstered by my utterly insufferable, practically Napoleonic level of pride.)”
I just wanted to say that my pride has saved me more than once. I just have to consider my own dignity when it comes to LO and I go right off contacting him. If it works, it works. In NC phase, its just about the most useful character trait to have. I know that pride also comes before a fall, etc etc, and that Jane Austen’s Mr Darcy was a terrible boor with his pride, at times, but I really do believe that it has benefits 🙂
On a more serious note, some of your comments last week had me aching for you – the way you beat yourself up about SO’s ‘browbeating’ comment. Thank goodness you do have some pride, that’s a corrective we sometimes need against unreasonable behaviour. I mean – that sounded as though you were being berated for being too ….. nice and encouraging? Sorry, I don’t buy it. That exchange sounded as though it was squarely on SO and that his reaction was overly defensive. When people are in a bad place they sometimes find positivity hard to stomach – but it doesn’t mean the person being positive is wrong.
Maybe you should embrace your pride a little? It does indicate a healthy sense of self, to some degree, right?
P.S.
CSC – In case you haven’t seen this blog already. I think Dr L is really smokin’ in this one 🙂
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-stories-we-tell-ourselves/
Hi Bewitched!
I have been meaning to reply for a while, I’m very late 🙂
I totally agree with you on pride. While I try not to be in anyone’s face about it, I do see my pride as an asset – it protects me when everything else fails…and it often helps hold me back from…deleterious actions. I feel people often mistake pride for selfishness, and they are quite different to me – are they to you?
Also, thank you for your sympathy regarding my toxic positivity, I am still smarting from that incident. As I always do, I am trying to take his feeling, to view it from lots of angles, to be aware of it, to understand, all statements have some truth…to really look at it and see, am I guilty of this?? I have looked at it for a couple of weeks….and honestly do not believe I am.
My SO is good at standing by me during tough times. He has seen me through a couple of very hard things in the past couple of years. (Cancer, the ensuing treatment, my Dad’s death) But I am coming to understand, when I am doing better, much later, when I can’t change my behavior, and when I am not expecting it– He unloads all this stuff on me….ways I hurt him during those tough times. Telling me I turned away, telling me I hurt him. It’s very difficult. I don’t know if it’s fair. Then again, life isn’t fair.
I’m not the victim – I have stayed in the relationship. But, I am feeling like it’s warping my sense of myself to hear his point of view, especially now, since many of the things he’s bringing up are at least several months back, some even years back.
He has a right to share his point of view. But, I feel he is being….excessively accusatory, and to be honest, pretty selfish.
…this is all very hard. But, I am also feeling a weird relief that I’m not crazy and I’m not necessarily “the bad one” in my relationship. I am not the good one, that’s for sure. But, I am seeing that I am probably not evil, and have the right to make my own choices…it’s a process.
I hope wherever you are, Bewitched, you are having a magical, witchy day in the best way. May you be surrounded by high-quality broomsticks, wands, pointy toed shoes…or whatever your witchery prefers.
with care, csc
I am taking Adderall for ADHD, and it is almost universally agreed upon by everyone I know that I am almost certainly on the autism spectrum as well, which makes me an “AuDHDer”.
The last time I posted on this blog, I mentioned my current LO, and how I am somehow managing to see her every day, and there is still not a sole at work that is aware that I have this obsession with her. I have also mentioned that I have a coworker who is a close friend at work, who is a very socially competent transgender woman (I first knew her 5 years ago when she was still a male, and she is also incidentally diagnosed with ADHD) who does not look or sound or act like a female. Me and my coworker have very good conversations about philosophy, current events, and the confounding effects of having an ailment like ADHD – and all of the times she has lost her temper with me because I totally misinterpret things, because my autism causes my brain to work very differently from everyone else’s. She loves to troll the hell out of me and watch me lose my mind when she only communicates with gestures and expressions that she knows I have great difficulty deciphering. I will say “Would you please answer my goddamn question?!” She will say “I just did.” Augh, how infuriating!
Recently, my coworker has been telling me to interact more with LO (my coworker does not know LO is my LO), to get her opinion on how we should organize the work in the department before she arrives for her shift, so she doesn’t end up having to clean up after us. I will then make excuses that I think LO has been irritated with me before, because she has been unable to begin running, because I will still be scrambling to get our cleanup done half an hour into her shift. (Actually, even our own Lead has told us we have to be out of the way and ready to give a situational report when the incoming shift arrives.)
My coworker made an interesting comment this morning before we left, that LO only actually gets irritated with me when I leave early without talking to her. So, I ask in amazement “She gets pissed off when I leave?” My coworker’s cryptic reply was “You miss a lot of social cues.” I didn’t ask for details, because I knew my coworker would not give me a straight answer. On the way out of the building, I passed LO in the hall and she looked like she had been crying, and she did not make eye contact like she usually does. I don’t know what to make of this or if it means anything.
Hi James,
When it comes to LO, I always assume it means nothing. This is a corrective I use to avoid over-interpreting LO. It has served me well and if you have AuDHD, it might also serve you as a rule-of-thumb?
That said, if LO (or anyone) had shown signs of having been crying, I would probably try to be extra kind and, just generally, nice. It doesn’t even need to be too overt – the smallest smile / wink / nod of the head can be sympathetic without over-committing or over-stepping a boundary, such as previous pattern of interaction. Many of us over-do it with LOs and can be too careful not to get warm with them because we don’t want it to be misconstrued, or worse, correctly construed and in so doing giving the game away. But people have bad days in the workplace and if we spend decades in the same workplace we do end up seeing colleagues in distress at some point, which requires sensitivity. I should say that I am sure you are always very nice!
My default is:
“Don’t over-think the meaning of LOs actions or things other people remark about LOs”.
I wonder if your friend and co-worker has sensed something about your interest in LO? If so, she might be testing the water?
“When it comes to LO, I always assume it means nothing.”
Yup, even basic common-sense advice like this needs to be heard again, and again, and again by us limerents, so we are just a little bit less likely to say or do something stupid. It’s like telling someone “Never point a gun in the direction of another person, even if you are CERTAIN that it is empty”, and we still have accidental shootings, but it still needs to be repeated.
And LO “called in” today, something she very rarely ever does. So, here is another random detail that could mean anything.
Hi Everyone,
Since this is the coffeehouse, I am going to ask for help today. I hope it’s ok to use the coffeehouse for this purpose.
I am doing ok in my NC. I’m on balance, glad I’m doing this, and know it will work (eventually. I had a little slip-up earlier in the week. LO sent a text (not words, just images of two paintings he’s working on). I replied with a very short “beautiful!” and two images of my own: Since we had discussed designs involving his paintings I took 5 minutes to use the images he had sent to create an example of what I had been trying to show him he might be able to do with his art.
This was several days ago, and no reply. I wouldn’t have taken someone else’s art into my own hands normally, but I felt is was ok in this instance, since it was something we had discussed (at coffee) and he had actually asked me for information on how to bring his art further, into other applications. (Also, it allowed me to communicate in a positive way, without sending an overly wordy text, something I try to avoid. haha- even though I know I’m quite the typer on here!)
Meanwhile…My SO, earlier in the week, came down on me for “browbeating”him. Essentially, he had written an article he was proud of, and expressed that “in another world” he would love to see it taken further, becoming a documentary film. My SO is not a go-getter, but I was surprised to hear he would want to take this piece further. I attempted to be encouraging (this is what I would do with anyone I am close to). I gently said, “Well, I thought the piece was really interesting! There’s a lot of depth in it. I don’t see why you couldn’t bring it further if you wanted to! I can see NPR or even NYT being interested in this story, just to name a few…”
SO rolled his eyes and gave me a look like I was breaching a major boundary for him. He was gnashing his teeth, with anger. Lunch ended in him telling me I was aggressively positive, and aggressive about encouraging others…that my positivity seems like an attack.
Hearing this makes me so confused. I am an enthusiastic, caring person. I have been creative for a long time. My livleyhood is my creativity. I am always happy to cheer on, or even to lend support, to other creative people, with whatever tools I have, or have learned about.
Soooo now, it seems that BOTH SO and LO are feeling the same thing…my support is worthless to them, or even…I don’t know…unwarranted? Toxic? I don’t know.
I thought LO would at least reply to my reaction to his art with a smiley face or a thx! or something. To hear nothing…I feel, again, like I was toxically positive.
I faced this attitude again, with SO today. It’s his birthday and he said he was depressed. I tried to sit and listen, and to offer some suggestions about how he could work on some artwork he had going, maybe, today. And then, we could have dinner later.
I was told, again, that I was browbeating him.
I don’t think what I have done with either SO or LO is overly aggressive. I am sensitive myself — and I try to be very mindful when helping or interacting with others around their creativity. It can be such a fragile thing. I would be grateful for any support or words of wisdom on how to care for myself right now. Maybe just keep my mouth shut…I don’t know.
TLDR; Could it be that there is nothing really *that* wrong with me, I am a decent, loving person doing her best, but I have surrounded myself with unconfident, insecure men, and when I try to be my best, loving, self towards them, they can’t handle being cared about? Sigh.
Whatever. Whatever the reason, I think this is all very, very bad for my mental health. I hope I can make some changes, and be patient with myself in changing.
Thank you. CSC
CSC,
Trust that you know yourself and your intentions best. You know what you meant by those comments/actions towards LO and SO, and nothing either of them can say can invalidate that. Your truth is the truth here.
I don’t get why LO didn’t reply to the comment about his art, but I feel it is nothing you did wrong. You don’t need his validation for what you did. I feel he has been quite unkind, or at best remiss.
There’s nothing obviously passive aggressive in what you said to SO, if your reporting of it here is accurate. I don’t get why he reacted like he did.
However, let me test something out, as I sense/intuit that you are someone who doesn’t mind frank discussions (on here, at least). So – here goes. I know I haven’t really treated my SO right, all through my LE. I’ve tried, and my intentions and morals have been honourable enough. But there is no denying that despite that, what SO has experienced from me is not the same thing that she would have experienced had my LE/LO not been there (you and I have sort of chatted about this before – about not being fully ‘present’). SO knows me pretty well – between 8 and 9 years together now. She has never confronted me about LO. But she knows well enough that there has been something going on inside my head to ‘take me away from her’. Whether she knows the what, who, where, when etc I am not sure, but I think it is likely that she suspects a fair amount of it. Often when SO has got wound up with me during this time, whatever issue has seemed to trigger it has seemed to me to be minor / ‘not the real issue’. ‘Mysteriously’ in the last month as my LE has eased off, that has hardly happened. I just wonder if your SO is getting triggered by some deeper sense he has about something being ‘up’, moreso than the thing that makes it comes out on the surface.
I could be miles off here, CSC. But you told me once to line up a couple of ‘cover stories’ (white lies, not real lies – just other things in life that could feasibly be bothering us instead of LO) to tell SO – and I thought that was good advice at the time.
Hang in there and keep talking to us.
CSC
I remember to one new hire in the company I work for, that I would be working with, my supervisor described me to her as an “overly polite gentleman”. I take that as a compliment but my supervisor said that, with women, I am polite to a fault. I have also been called “overbearing” due to my manners.
You CSC seem to be in the same case. I think some people will never “fit in” within the majority of people in society. And I say that not really knowing your LO or SO. But neither instance you posted do I understand their reactions. Or lack of reaction. I can’t even imagine how your SO calls that “browbeating” when you complimented his work.
It sounds unfair and annoying, but I think we empathetic, for the lack of a better term, people have to try and pull back so as not come off abrasive to others. The woman I currently work with I have found it’s all business, no chit chat. I get a very distinct vibe she either just doesn’t want to give me a chance, or in her eyes I have done something wrong, with how passive aggressive she is with me. But I suck it up and say “oh well”. However a co-worker is much different than a SO and LO.
It sucks to say, “oh I have to change myself for the majority?” And yeah that does suck. But curbing tendencies can save you more mental stress. I know it is very hard for me in my female interactions, as I don’t want to come off overbearing but helpful. But that’s not how society sees things. Personally I see your actions with both your SO and LO well within acceptable parameters. And I don’t get their reactions. As I personally find our interactions here on LwL very pleasant and enjoyable.
@Adam
Your take on this is fascinating. And, as a fellow considerate sort…very recognizable.
It is hard to know when to curb my kind / empathetic tendencies to protect myself, and when to use them. I often err on the side of just using them, because I feel I am strong enough to handle the haters, or people who can’t handle it if someone is considerate to them. (Being a kind person is not my problem. It’s their issue.) But, I will admit, these duelling SO/LO factors have my me starting to doubt myself in ways I normally would not.
My goodness, I am so sorry that is happening with your coworker. To be met with passive aggression when you are just being yourself is awful. I would say to you, it is not you. It is her. If you being polite, and considerate (or even a bit over-considerate sometimes) is making her aggressive? Not a psychologist here, but I’ll guess it’s her issue.
I’ve known women like your co-worker. Passive aggression is awful. It’s so depleting to be around someone like that. I would imagine, Adam, that it’s not just you. If she acts that way to one, she probably acts that way to all. It’s just that nobody has compared notes. She’ll likely do herself in, people like that usually do, one way or another. And, she is only making herself look bad. Passive aggressive people think they’re hiding their aggression. But, honestly, it’s not that mysterious. Everyone can see it clear as day. And it’s a bad look.
Thank you for giving me a bit of comfort in that I wasn’t out of line in my own interactions. Similarly, I would say the same to you. You have struck me as a very considerate, emotionally sophisticated, and thoughtful person. To me, those are real attributes! If others see them as objectionable, I find it baffling.
🙂
@LaR
Once again, thank you for helping me. I hope that when I am through this, I can be a support for someone, as you have been for me. Inside, I do know I have done my best to be a caring girlfriend/friend and artist. Thank you for helping me feel seen, that way. I am not the victim here, this LE is my doing. But, I am just…not trusting my mind at all, at this point. Very confusing.
Once again, your instincts know exactly what is really going on, LaR. Yes, I believe my entangled ways have caused SO much stress. He’s looking around his own life for the reason why…but he has no idea it’s an LE in my world. I’ve been trying to protect SO, but I am sure I seem “forced” in ways I didn’t before. My Dad died this summer, I believe SO thinks much of my mental state stems from that. Would that it did.
ps. I am glad my ‘white lies’ thing made sense in context of what you were struggling with. I know dishonesty is not a great habit — but I had just wanted you to have a little space to breathe and collect your thoughts, at that difficult time. Thank you for understanding what I meant. 🙂 I am very glad to hear your LE is lessening in intensity, and that things with SO seem more stable, as that has happened! I am sure that is just a huge relief, in terms of the pressure you have gone through.
Hi CSC,
maybe, just maybe, you are just too awesome in your mind and creativity that its a bit much for your LO or SO to handle and they feel inferior to you?
I maybe way off, but it’s just a thought.
You said :
“I took 5 minutes to use the images he had sent to create an example of what I had been trying to show him he might be able to do with his art”
Could it be that what you created( in a few minutes) was amazing and LO felt intimidated by your skill versus his creation? Similarly with SO, that your creative skills makes him feel you are superior somehow when he was sharing.
Obviously I know nothing it’s just a theory I’m throwing in of the whys.
I enjoy your free flowing writing btw and maybe you should do more of this ( fiction stories ?)
No need to answer. Just a few random thoughts .
@Imho
I just want you to know I saw this…I thank you. Most of all, I thank you for complimenting my (copious, hyperbolic) writing here. I have never tried fiction, but you have planted a seed, @imho!
…I am still in NC and hope to remain that way tho will admit it’s getting difficult. there is a very real feeling (it is now week 2) that I am literally saying goodbye to this. My LO did text me on Sunday night (a kind of weak, breadcrumby text saying what i sent him was cool.) I have not replied. While I wish I could, the reality that to do so would set me back is strong. I’d lose ground, and I don’t think I’m strong enough to do that right now.
I feel my access to “fun” which is what LO is to me, is gone. I’m definitely entering the high plains of NC right now. The lonely plateau, the slog towards clearing this. No fun at all!!! But, at least I don’t want to jump off a bridge. 🙂
(At least, not a very tall one. A small bridge, like you’d see in a decorative garden or something, might be fun and a nice, dramatic indulgence. May consider.)
Hello CSC,
I like our delayed messages to each other- its like the old days of posting letters !
( I have been away and under a lot of work pressure so not been on lwl so much. I did a quick search on my pseudonym, and saw your reply to my message which warmed my heart – thank you )
Your NC approach is actually inspiring me to do the same. When I met my long distant LO in person relatively recently I realise it set me back quite a lot.
I think it’s a thrill for him and then he moves on with his life, but for me, I linger with limerence, false hope, whatever !
You are right about cutting the source and access to fun, and let’s be honest, thoughts of desire!
It’s tough, it’s dull but it’s about being an adult doing the right thing.
In the past, I would send messages/photos to my LO of the amazing places I’ve travelled to in the last week or so, but I resisted.
I love your description of jumping off from a mini-bridge, which I visualised as a garden Japanese bridge across a shallow pond, which you got immersed in water just above the knees when you jumped over the threshold !
The goldfish were not very happy, but everyone survived and was a bit comical.
You should definitely consider writing stories, you are a gifted writer!
Imho 💃🏻,
“I did a quick search on my pseudonym, and saw your reply to my message“
How do you actually do such a pseudonym search? I never managed it. ☹️
Thanks.
Hi ❄️
on my android device, on the three dots (top right), I simply click on “Find in page” with it’s search function.
💃🏻
Hiya 💃,
I use Apple system: iphone, ipad and laptop, and cannot find what you describe on your Android system; NO three dots anywhere, top or bottom.
On the page, I only see “Search this Website”. But when I tired my pseudonym in all its variations, the only says no “pseudonym is found.
What do you ACTUALLY type in “find in page”? “@imho”? Or something else?
Thanks, ❄️
❄️,
I’m not really an expert, I can only suggest to use Google Chrome and the three dots should appear in top right on the very top bar, click this and scroll to ‘find in page’
Or control+F, then type.
I would type ‘Imho’ or key word I’m seeking or other community members name if I’m looking to check-up on their comments in any blog post.
I hope this helps!
💃🏻
💃,
Got it! (I normally used “safari”). It only works with letters, but not imojis…
🙏
❄️
❄️🐦🔥, 💃
You two are very much amusing me with your creative uses of the ‘Name’ box 😁
What a shame that function doesn’t work for emojis.
🚜 🚨 🌱 🌽 🎩 :
💡 up some somber spirit…
🌹 🌱 🍅
I am probably the useless IT support person who only advises ‘have you tried turning it off and on again?’
💃🏻
💃,
💃’s help this time is tremendous, because in a “gigantic” room, 🔍 could spot a member and lead one to read all their posts — ❄️ 🐦🔥’s LwL journey is especially “interesting” — a helpless 🙄 narcissist 😎 here!
Hope you’re feeling better in your gradual LC/NC… We’re indeed INFP 👯♀️ here…
And yet, so often a problem is solved by finding a plug that came loose, lol
SL 📕,
Precisely!
I wish there is a loose/weak plug somewhere for LE, which we could just unplug by chance or intentionally, then our LE ⛓️💥💥 and 🌬️ Gone with 💨 !
Ooooh I want to go jump dramatically from a mini bridge so much now!
To your problem w/ so and lo reaction, consider wether you may be counselling too much.
My so made a similar reproach but was able to explain that sometimes he say something and just want a “oh so sorry for you” and a pat on the back, or a ” good job very cool!”
Sometimes, although counsel are good and can help, people aren’t ready to hear it yet and want time to live the emotions they are talking about with you.
It’s frustrating when you think you have the solution, I know that very well.
But maybe next time try something along the line of ” oh cool, who would you see play in the documentary?” Then a few days later come back with a counsel if he want to do something with it.
Don’t send anything to lo, or just ask if he wants your take on it.
Same thing with the depressed state. Try a oh sorry pat on the back
Although, in an ideal world, they would be able to listen to your good counsel and it seem like a less than optimal situation for everyone, sometimes people are just sharing but not ready for counsel….
But it’s just my take on it.
Also I realized I just annoyingly counselled you. Sorry sorry *pat on the back*
Hi CSC
Had to look up browbeating..
I think I wouldn’t connect the two events too much. LO might have completely different reasons for not answering than SO has for being grumpy.
I‘m also tempted to say they are both men so maybe they don’t like it if you show more creativity and energy than them, but that might be unfair.
It’s always worth to take a minute and think if there really could be something that went down the wrong way with them. Maybe your LO just wanted to show you his art and was a bit flummoxed that you immediately „did“ something with it? Maybe he misunderstood it as that you immediately pushed your own work on it instead of just appreciating what he did? (I‘m the blunt here, sorry😎)
And maybe your SO didn’t react on what you said but how you said it- maybe he sensed a „don’t be that way, just get yourself together, I don’t like you that way“?
Having taken that minute, I think that there might be basic insecurity issues behind both.
Another interpretation:SO feels low and takes it out on you, LO maybe just wanted to brag and ignores your input because he doesn’t care?
Many interpretations, but they main thing is, don’t let them derail you! You are not dependent on their behavior.
You meant well in both cases and if it came over the wrong way they could explain it to you, instead they choose to bite back or ignore- not very mature.
Hi CSC,
“ Could it be that there is nothing really *that* wrong with me, I am a decent, loving person doing her best, but I have surrounded myself with unconfident, insecure men, and when I try to be my best, loving, self towards them, they can’t handle being cared about? Sigh”
Probably not. I think you should read Alison Armstrong’s book, “Making Sense of Men.” It’s short, interesting and very helpful! Also, in her YouTube videos Alison talks about “frog farmers.” I don’t think you are a frog farmer, but you might have some symptoms of it.
Best of luck!
Hi Everyone,
I am here to post an update, and to ask for HALP. I’m piggybacking on my own post.
So, I’ve made it through 3 weeks (I think I’m actually slightly over 3 weeks!) NC (I sent one very dry text reply to an existing message of his, not a slip-up, really more to make sure I didn’t seem like a jerk.) After that, a sense of relief at the idea of actually closing this door began to creep in…oh my gosh, I don’t have to think about him anymore. I can stop guessing what he’s doing, because he is No Longer An Option.
My brain has started coming back. I can see the damage this LE has caused, I can see, actually, that it’s not the LE, but the fact I am not in integrity, that is the worst part of it all. I can see how much of a waste this past year has been…and how much work I need to do around my primary relationship (possibly needs to end), my grief over my life (unfulfilled desires and dreams), and my grief over my Dad’s death (hi Dad).
My physical symptoms have pretty much abated. I haven’t wanted to cry much, anymore. Like L-a-R, I was physically exhausted for a while. My heartbeat was going a mile a minute…but it’s slower now. I do have a lingering, mind-blown feeling. Like I’ve just come up from being deep in the ocean, for a long time. I feel fragile, weird.
I am starting to have some goals again. The same goals I had before the LE. Some new. Art goals (woo!) Friend goals (seeing my friends feels amazing).
I have procured a therapist. I think she will be a great asset as I try to navigate in coming days….She knows I’ve had a major LE. And that it’s not the LE, but the *giant* mountain of grief and suppression (on top of which, LO sits like a shiny, golden nipple), that we are going to have to grapple with.
*cue dramatic music*
However, true to form, after my first meeting with my therapist, I saw I had a text. Yes, guess who? LO, back from the dead.
The text asked where I had been, wondering why he hadn’t seen me. Mentioned the art thing we had worked on together. Thanked me again for my time. The text also mentioned “I can’t wait to take you to —– (a place we had posited going together), I just have to find the time.”
Now, I had been doing SO well in NC. So much progress. Now, here I am again wasting time mulling over what to say back.
Over time I’ve come to see he probably sees me as someone he doesn’t want to lose touch with, for whatever reason. But, I’ve also seen that *I* am someone who will accept crumbs, and these…sorry…these are crumbs. When I want to do something, I FIND the time.
IDK what to do here. Next therapy session is Monday. She will kill me if I break NC hahah – ok she won’t, but, let’s face it, I know I should stay in NC.
But…I still…I still feel like I can’t cut the cord completely. Even though I know it’s good for me. Even though he may actually have *some* weird feeling for me.
Please encourage me to stay the path. Please tell me, this text from him means *nothing*. Or almost nothing. Tell me I don’t need to rush. I’ve been doing so well…but I can feel myself wanting to backslide. I need to calm down.
CSC
CSC 🤖,
📢 If you truly want your health and integrity, 🛑 🛑 🛑 🛑 🛑 🛑 texting anything! simply ✋⛔️ ⛔️ ⛔️ ⛔️✋!
🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐🤐
🔊 your LE 🧠 just can’t see that he’s an insecure 🐕 LO to tease and get ego gratification from you! He knows he can from your current mental state! 📣
His exercises and yours are ALL 💩💩! Sorry to be so direct❗️
😡 🦜 ❄️
TYPO: his “excuses”.
🏵️🌱🍅
Ugggh you are so right. I was doing so well. He has an uncanny ability to show up with his tiny, yet powerful thimblefull of uncertainty whenever I am feeling stronger.
Yeah, my prior text to him was, on purpose, VERY dry, just technical, really. It was probably pretty clear I was actively stepping back. Add more NC from me, to that, and of course, he’s probably just wondering where his little 🧠⬆ went.
I don’t feel anger at him. But it’s frustrating…more frustrated with myself for not being able to have more clarity after all these productive weeks!
🤖
📣🤐 is ⚡️🔋🪫,📢
just 🔐 your 👄
🍅 🤜 💩 LO! 🤛 ❗️❗️
🏵️🌱😡
👉❤️👈
🤖 🪫🐌
🙏🏽🔋❗️
💩🍞🤏
🤖🧘🏻♀️⚡️
⏳⏳⏳
⪽𝛓☾
⪽𝛓☾,
🙏🏿 👍 ✍️
😡 🍖 👺
🤲❤️❤️ 👈
🧘♀️ 🧘♀️🧘♀️
⏳⏳⏳
🔋🔌 🤖
CsC,
Read:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/dodgy-limerent-objects/
and all the links that piggy-back off it.
Recognise him in there anywhere?
I don’t go out of my way to villify other people’s LOs on here. But from bits you’ve said at different times (inconsistencies in his behaviours), I think he likes to orbit people and keep them dangling.
I know you will have the “it’s just an art project” narrative ticking away. But, ask yourself these questions:
– what would *really* make you feel best right now?
– what’s the anticipated good outcome from contact?
– resuming contact means starting NC from scratch and going through those 3 weeks ‘again’ – are you prepared to do that? Does the reward outweigh that risk?
I know my questions are ‘leading’!!
Hi CSC,
I saw your “help” post and I just wanted to quote you back to yourself. Two weeks ago you wrote:
“Last time I tried NC I will admit, it was to draw him in (it worked, til it didn’t”
He may think you’ve gone quiet again (fpr whatever reason), and that, if he dangles a shiny text your way, things will go back to how they were before – and he will get his nice attention back.
But this is in your control. If it does not make you feel good, you dont need to engage (or not engage fully, you could slow fade him if that makes it easier to go NC).
Here’s hoping you get clarity that works for you.
@LaR and @bewitched
Thank you, friends. Yes, I have to persevere, here. He is definitely an expert shiny-object dangler…Bewitched, you are right, thank you for reminding me of What Happened Last Time….the infamous Relapse! otherwise known as Rock Bottom Level 4 Sub-Basement (sigh).
I don’t want to make him sound like he’s pure evil. He’s a sweet person, and kind. Yes, he’s also immature and flaky, and unfortunately also very, very good at attracting me. The weird thing is, though, all that is true, yet in some ways, he’s been a better friend to me this past year than some other people I am quite close with. Limerence is soooo weird, and difficult. It’s like it has no end to why it’s so hard.
I wish there was a way to allow him into my life without so much damage. But right now, the damage is me. I am the one who is totally out of integrity, and has SO, and has let everything creep…even if I was able to meet up with LO, there would still be the fact…I am going home to an SO of 20 years who I am kind of lying to. I’m not lying outright, but I am majorly obscuring truth. To both LO and SO.
None of this is good and I have to get out of it. *enter Therapist*
Thank you, thank you.
csc
@mila @lovisa
Oh god, wow. Yeah, this is what I’ve been afraid of. I feel horrible thinking I may have been the exact opposite of supportive. Instead, making people feel torn down or sapped.
I think in the future, I may not say anything at all. I’ll just say “That’s great!’ Or something. Or “It’s amazing.” And that will have to do it. I think in the future, I will learn to keep my mouth closed. If I support anyone in their creative endeavors, I will support myself, and myself alone.
I did apologize to SO on the days he said he felt browbeaten. Right away. And, I should probably text LO to say I’m sorry, too. I don’t know. I didn’t feel sorry…but after reading that I might have really offended people, now I feel horrible. It’s all such a mess….I wish I could stop making such a mess of everything. Thanks so much for weighing in, and trying to be honest with me.
No, CSC,
I didn’t mean you were necessarily offending them. I just meant there is a possibility that they might have misunderstood or are oversensitive. But that’s only one of many possibilities.
I don’t think you should apologize to LO, no! We have nobody what‘s really going on, also, he doesn’t have to be that sensitive, puh-lease. It wouldn’t not such a big offense that there need to be apologies?
We cannot know or judge what happened, from a few words on the internet, please don’t take that as a truth- it was just a play of mind, trying to get every perspective on board.
*“we have no idea“
I completely second what Mila said, CSC. Don’t text an apology to LO! Zero need.
@mila @LaR
Thank you, friends…I just spoke with a bestie of mine (who, as luck would have it also a trauma therapist…ha— not a privilege I abuse!) i ran my awful panic by her. She feels I have done nothing wrong. SO was harsh (she knows SO) …and LO shared images, no text. How was I supposed to know what they meant? And no reply doesn’t mean anything. It means…nothing.
she also says if needed, i could send a neutral message like “I wanted to check in, design direction aside…artist to artist, it meant a lot that you shared your piece, and it is beautiful just as it is! I hope that came across. 🙂
And leave it at that. No apology, but possibly a clarification to help my own uncertainty stop gnawing at me. He probably won’t reply, or will cryptically reply. But at least I’ll know I’m not misperceived. IDK.
but seriously, this should be clear. I think I’m just overwrought. And he’s probably just forgotten or not cared enough to know a reply would be welcome. (?) I am going to let this rest 24 hrs. And revisit. My Goodness, I am determined to make this my last LE. I cannot take this stuff again!
With gratitude, CSC
Hi CSC,
very good draft of a text, I need a friend like that!
I would wait 24 h and maybe the need to text settles anyway, but I think you can safely send that text after that time if it sets your mind at peace. I understand that, I hate the feeling of being misunderstood and not setting it right.
But why do you think he wouldn’t reply or reply enigmatically? Is he always someone who‘s not straightforward? Just asking out of curiosity.
Hi @mila
Thank you for that endorsement. I am glad it didn’t read as unhinged. I sure feel unhinged. I will absolutely be waiting the 24 hours. As of now, I’m more considering not sending it, but we will see. The whole thing is so weird. Normally he at least politely acknowledges. That was more what I expected…
The reason I expect no reply or a cryptic one at best is because he hasn’t replied to the original one I sent, which really had nothing too wrong with it. Not even a little “reaction”. I am guessing that’s not because he’s in the hospital having an emergency appendectomy, but more because he’s occupied with someone or something else, or, just doesn’t *want* to. I can’t stand up against those forces.
But, I honestly don’t get it because he’s normally at least pretty polite…just generally so. He’s not really the kind of person who gets easily offended…It’s a mystery. It may remain so, no matter what I do!
I seriously cannot wait to feel better. I am so tired of this, it feels awful. I can’t wait until my mind makes some new connections and I am able to feel a bit more normal again. Limerence isn’t just something you logically think your way out of though…sigh. As we all know too well!
@mila oops but to be specific – he is a pretty lousy text-er. Just…doesn’t give it a lot of attention. Talking with him is a very different thing. He is not looking at his phone, always fully engaged. He’s a very, very poor text-er. But, again, polite enough, however, short and kind of cryptic.
Hi CSC,
Texting is the hell of limerence! I suffered many hours/days/months there, let me tell you….
I think there is a very harmless reason behind his silence- like you said, he‘s busy, he read it and didn’t have time to reply right away, and forgot afterwards, or whatever. It proves that he definitely isn’t in the same state of mind as you, that his mind isn’t half as much occupied with you as yours is with him.
But texting behavior is very different in people, as you said. My LO2 is very erratic. He just leaves texts unread for weeks. Then, if you get him at the right time, he will text for hours. I know him now and I know that he likes/loves me very much, and we have reached the same level of affection (a great one, but not occupying the mind, and not thinking of the other for weeks, but when we meet it’s always beautiful ), but his texting behavior used to almost kill me back when I was limerent.
The „good“ thing is that you seem really fed up with feeling so bad about it. At some point your mind will say „not any more“ and that’s the turning point , you will crawl out of this waiting hell! You deserve better than agonizing about a stupid text from a person who probably forgot to answer or is miffed because his ego was scratched for some silly reason!
CSC,
I can feel just how much you are overthinking this texting thing, and stuff about your LO in general. I say this from a place of understanding, not judgement – as I have been there so very often. It is horrible what the lim-brain does to us, but it is good to keep recognising that it is this altered state of mind talking. Good that you reached out to us instead of taking hasty action and texting him. There are few things more demeaning to me than sending an ‘are you Ok?’ text after getting no reply.
Exactly like you said about him, and like Mila described her LO2, some people are just unconventional texters / rubbish texters. My LO is the same – what I do or don’t get by text has no correlation to in person dynamics. It took me a really long time to work this out and get comfortable with it – there was always the ‘what have I done wrong?’ question nagging away at me. The answer was invariably – ‘nothing’.
Ask yourself whether and why you need to text him again at all. What’s the intended good outcome?
“Limerence isn’t just something you logically think your way out of though…sigh.”
You’re right, but I’d want to add a caveat. You can’t do it with logic alone, or make it happen faster than it wants to. But there has been (for me anyway) an element of “fake it till you make it”. That is – if I keep telling myself things with my logical brain, whilst acknowledging that my feeling brain feels different … then slowly the feeling brain can start to catch up and perhaps ‘hear’ what the logical brain is repeatedly saying. Like the one leading the way for the other. Some here will disagree with me on this point, but it’s had merit in my own case.
I typed a long reply to you yesterday on the ‘white lies’ point only for my phone to delete it before I hit send. I will get back to that when I can – but the TLDR is that I fully knew you weren’t trying before to encourage me to lie to SO. It actually helped me to be more truthful (will write more on it eventually)
I second LaR on „fake it til you make it“. It has benefits, one of them preserving dignity. I guess I‘m not very good at it, but it definitely helped me.
@mila @LaR
You both are helping me more than I can express. To know, as I wheel wildly in my emotions, that you care and understand, it’s part of being like this, and the process of untangling from it…is grounding. Thank you, thoughtful souls!….and thank you for sharing your experiences with texts. Truly, I feel a bit insane, allowing little words on a little screen to have such impact…I’m so sorry to know you’ve experienced similar with your LO’s.
You both underline a point I am struggling to see: In MY mind, this whole things is like…a deep connection being rent asunder. In his mind? It’s a text. Yep. The “what have I done wrong?” Thing is hovering over me…not so for him.
Even though you are giving me strong medicine, such good reminders: LO does not see or experience ANY of this turmoil. He’s just a young man who got a text from someone he knows. There’s no deeper meaning, and no urgency. His feelings about himself his art, or me, aren’t hinging on what I’ve done or expressed.
It has not been a full 24 hrs but, I feel I should not send any further message. The best thing would be for me to sit back and let time do its work. *Whatever* that work is, I have faith it will be to my benefit. But I should take no further action (except action that keeps me in NC).
My NC-motivation pie chart still has about 60%-70% portion of “Maybe I’ll make him miss me! And maybe he’s pining away for me, and unsure what to say!!!”
I eagerly await the day when it truly dawns on me, not just in mind, but in my heart, that NC has done its quiet work, in the background, knitting me back together, and I see…all this time, it may not have felt like it, but NC really has been for ME. Because I’ll be back in control. Like yoga, you just show up, keep showing up, keep doing it, paying attention. And one day…you flex towards a posture and you achieve it. You feel you’ve gotten there, without getting there. There’s no fanfare, just a knowledge time and effort have done their work. It’s a beautiful feeling and has taught me so much.
When I tire out today, I’m expecting for lim-brain to take over, and I’ll freak out for a while…At which point I’ll come back here and read your replies again to hold me down!
You are the best. Thank you, friends. I hope you both having a beautiful, carefree Sunday!
PS. LaR I would love to hear more about the white lies truths…I’m so sorry your message went *poof!* But, if you ever feel like diving back in, I am looking forward to hearing about your thoughts!
@CSC,
Hello Coffee drinking Friend. I know I’m a little late to this conversation but just wanted to say hello and I see you seem to be doing better. Although you are definitely in the mindset of overthinking everything.
Thinking of your SOs reaction to you, I was trying to put myself in the mindset of Old MJ (from when I was still married) and thinking about how like you, how caring and enthusiastic my Wife always was then. She was the one keeping things afloat. Keeping things upbeat. As I had the tendency to look negatively upon everything.. If she would ever dare ask why I was looking so “negatively” as in, let’s just say the glass being half empty, I’d find a way to explain how “positively” the glass is definitely not half full. I was short tempered, angry and wrapped up in all the wrong things. I ran a tight ship and thought I was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Fact is I wasn’t running $#!+. I was a dictator, a fraud and an idiot. She was indescribably too good of a caring and loving Woman to put up with me and my lying, cheating ways. My PAs were numerous and with the very most wrong People. It’s really no wonder I’m divorced.
Not saying in any way now this is your Husband’s problem. I remember my Wife’s overall positive attitude was quite cringey to me too at times. But I think it was probably just more jealousy on my part that I didn’t know how to have that good of an outlook on life, like she had. I was jealous I could never be as happy or as positive as her. Guess it didn’t help I was having affairs. But I was trying to escape monotony because her and I lost touch. I got heavy into porn and strippers and didn’t feel like reconnecting. Once she pulled the plug, I came whining back like a lost puppy dog, hoping she would take me back, but it was too late.
Perhaps your Husband has his own stuff he’s working through and you may not be aware of the depth of it. I might be way the hell off, but the way your LE causes you so much ruminating and roller coaster emotion is an effect of his behavior in your relationship. LEs don’t happen when everything is alright with the world. I will say though you have done nothing wrong for him to react that way. This is a problem he needs to address. Reconnecting with SO would also probably aid you in turning down the LE heat as well.
In that situation, I will add also not to fret so much about an unanswered text. Many times my Lady Friend doesn’t react to my texts either, but I also know she’s got her own involuted Soap Opera going on (Of which I have my own arduous opinions about) but I’m staying out of it. I find the more I tell myself there’s really nothing I can do about any of it, (at least until it self-implodes) the better off I am emotionally. I feel like I’ve done extremely well trying not to go all limerent on her, but there are degrees of anxiety that hit now and then, that feel limerent in nature. Staying out of her business until she wants to open up is what I find works best. Also keeping conversations surface-level seem to really help too and it’s sometimes doing just that, opens up other avenues for conversation. I usually try to let her steer what she wants to talk about and when she wants to go deep, I’m all in for the swim. I can talk just about anything with her, so that’s what makes her such a good Friend. All this too despite my disclosure. Yet I’ve also found she’s very good at compartmentalizing.
It takes work to stay positive but I have no SO to go home to and drink coffee with either. So I guess I’ll just have to take initiative and do that myself now. Raising another cup to you.
Keep doing the positive things you’re doing and thanks for keeping us updated..
@MJ
Hello fellow coffee-person. 🙂 I raise my cup to you! *clink* Thank you for your encouragement and for sharing your story about your SO, and your marriage.
Yes, I was bottoming out there, I feel slightly better now…trying to maintain NC, not panic while my two brain cells attempt to realize….it might be pretty grand not to keep riding the burning limerence rollercoaster as it careens straight into a dumpster. ha.
You make some very good points around my SO and his ways…it really helps remind me (I may be positive, but I suffer from depression)…Positivity can be gruelling. Especially if someone is dealing with, as you say, stuff I’m not aware of – at a depth I’m not aware of. I am going to try and be more mindful of that, even if it means I say less, around SO. I do think he’s really…having a hard time. Some is his stuff. Some, though, as @mila mentioned, may be my doing (as I have been lost at sea with my LE these days…)
If I may…after reading your reply…it sounds like you hold so much guilt and hard judgement around how you behaved with your ex-wife. Your language to yourself is so punative. I understand that but, I will say to you, what my dear friend (the one who is a trauma therapist) said to me once…
I expressed guilt to her, over my limerent actions against my primary relationship. She stopped walking, turned to me, and on the busy corner of the avenue, looked me right in the eye and said, “Honey, it’s never one-sided. It is ALWAYS a two-way street.” I was amazed. I just was not expecting her to give me any wiggle room. But, there it was…
At that point I felt I could breathe a little better…I’m not saying you did nothing wrong. Just that…situations are often more complex, even if one person is supposedly the “good” person. It’s just not quite that simple. I think both people begin with the best intentions…their own hopes.
Yes, you may have done things you don’t feel ok about (lord knows i have), but, you must live your life that you have today, not rake yourself over the coals for things you did in the past, and try to free yourself, because you deserve to be free and make good, satisfying use of your existence. We all, I think, try and do the best we can, to survive. Few of us are outright manipulators. Most, if not all, including the manipulators…are…dealing with things that happened to us, and making choices in a life where is no official rule-book or owner’s manual.
It can be easy to lose the thread, to get sucked in to an addiction, to a lifestyle, to a person…a situation. Other people can say it’s wrong, wonder wtf made you do something so “stupid”… but it has not happened to them. If it did, they would sing another tune, maybe one of understanding. Or, they at least would not be so quick to tell us what we should do. Nobody is completely clean. They’re just…not.
I certainly don’t have it all figured out. I’m a mess. But, I am a sympathetic person, and can look outside myself, still, with some clarity, I hope. 🙂 You seem to be a kind and understanding person, you certainly have been, for me, here. This has been such a hard time in my life (and it has brought deep shame). Hearing that you understand, and have gone through something like it. It helps to know I’m not alone…I’m human. So are you. And we are not all that bad, even if we have done things that we’d change.
With care, CSC
“It sounds like you hold so much guilt and hard judgement around how you behaved with your ex-wife. Your language to yourself is so punative.”
@CSC
Thank you for your very kind words and uplift. You too also seem like a very good Woman, who like myself has trapped themselves into believing becoming addicted to another person is an outright good and positive thing. Of course we know it isn’t, but our brains want to make us happy. In therapy I have been told countless times that when one addiction goes away, another is waiting in the wings to take over. Somehow LO got in at just the right sweet spot when I needed her (or something) and turned all my logic and reasoning upside down. Now that I’m basically NC with LO, another Lady Friend (LF) seems to be satisfying the urge. Although I’m going to fight to the death of me not to become limerent for her.
Limerence in the way it hit me was profoundly different than any other crush I’ve had on another Woman, in my entire lifetime. Never once before have I ever felt such pangs of excitement over seeing another Woman as alluring and so elegant, sexy, attractive as LO. Even as cute and precocious as LF is to me, she still does not thrill to a level that LO did or does. It’s just become an experience that I’ve tried to appreciate but would rather have had it not hit me emotionally like it did and in such massive depressive fallout, when I realized it would never be. Even my own Mothers passing, did I never cry as hard or as close to hard as, once I knew LO would never be. That says a lot about how this experience has effected me. A depression and sadness like no other.
I think a lot of the guilt, shame and resentment I hold towards myself is rooted like it is, because if I had lived up to my vows, really worshipped the God that I professed to and not tried making all things sexual about satisfying myself only, I probably would be in a way better place today. I have a family full of in laws that really resent me, a Daughter that may never fully get on board (though she’s trying) and an Ex I still miss often. (Not so much the bad stuff though.) What I really miss is camaraderie. How we were as a team and all the traditions and fun stuff we did.. Something I try bringing to my friendship with LF now. It’s just so different and new and yes sometimes it is the 24 year age difference that makes it challenging but she at least makes me feel normal again and does sometimes help me balance out my mood swings. (That is when I’m not letting her drama affect me.. 😉)
Whereas when you stated,
“We all, I think, try and do the best we can, to survive. Few of us are outright manipulators. Most, of not all, including the manipulators…are…dealing with things that happened to us.”
I think this is somewhat ballpark of the current place she’s in but I cannot confirm it.. I just try to be her friend for now and enjoy challenging myself not to take things too far or drive in limerent nature. Limerence isn’t just a crush, it’s soul crushing and it’s real and I never want another person to affect me in that way again.
Your post was very kind CSC. I appreciate your take and uplifting today. I feel like you get this and know a direction you need to go to recover. I know my Wife and I had a lot to work on, but I was in my mid 30s then. I was naturally an idiot and immature. What the hell do those 30 year olds know anyway?? (LO and LF just turned 30, lol. 🤣)
In any event, I get what you mean about it not being just a one way street. Nobody is perfect, but it’s too bad I’ve had to go through fire just to figure that out.. Anyway,
Time for coffee.. ☕
And then to work.. 🚙
Have a good evening.. 😉😁
ART AND HEART
Ella Wheeler Wilcox
Though critics may bow to art, and I am its own true lover,
It is not art, but heart, which wins the wide world over.
Though smooth be the heartless prayer, no ear in Heaven will mind it,
And the finest phrase falls dead if there is no feeling behind it.
Though perfect the player’s touch, little, if any, he sways us,
Unless we feel his heart throb through the music he plays us.
Though the poet may spend his life in skillfully rounding a measure,
Unless he writes from a full, warm heart he gives us little pleasure.
So it is not the speech which tells, but the impulse which goes with the saying;
And it is not the words of the prayer, but the yearning back of the praying.
It is not the artist’s skill which into our soul comes stealing
With a joy that is almost pain, but it is the player’s feeling.
And it is not the poet’s song, though sweeter than sweet bells chiming,
Which thrills us through and through, but the heart which beats under the rhyming.
And therefore I say again, though I am art’s own true lover,
That it is not art, but heart, which wins the wide world over.
*******
It is not Social Media’s words or images,
that sound sweetly caring, or look artistically dashing,
which knits onlookers eyebrows through and through,
but the Lim-heart’s pinning, throbbing and thrilling to
chase LO under limerencing feverish dreams and schemes.
🐦🔥
Agh @snow
I just went to see the ballet Swan Lake last night…that ballet has a special place in my heart, the music, especially. The waltz has a beautiful, yearning, twisting and careening quality…so beautiful yet so devastating…. It stayed with me into this morning. Your poem today is helping me reflect on how what I saw, and how it made me feel.
I hope you’re well, today. X
“Scene” from Swan Lake is one of my all-time favorite pieces of classical music.
https://youtu.be/RIck7OCm6UU?feature=shared – Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic on Deutsche Grammophon. It’s as good as it gets.
In my dreams I’m playing the oboe in the pit at The Kennedy Center.
I love this in Hannibal. It always puts me at peace.
https://youtu.be/8M5YeZIg71U?si=haKNMF_BPNf0lcDP
@Limerent Emeritus
Me too…I love how there is a kind of buzzing of the strings in the background, you just feel yourself descending into a dream. The oboe sounds like some delicate thing, extending across space…a swan’s neck, a dancer’s body. I love the accents of the harp as well… jewel-like. Wow, that link you shared is *Everything* that piece should be. Just wrenching and gorgeous!
Last night, I couldn’t hear much of the subtleties, and I missed them. Thank you for sharing that!
Oboe is such a beautiful, strange instrument. I didn’t know you played. That is wonderful…so inspiring! 🙂 It must be lovely to have a talent like that.
Thanks, CSC,
I don’t really play the oboe. I take oboe lessons. My teacher PLAYS the oboe. I took it up when I was 58. My father played the oboe in the 1930s. Supposedly, he was pretty good at it.
I play the oboe like I play golf. In most rounds of golf, I’m good for 3-4 good holes. Give me a good reed, stay between low C and high A, no more than 3 flats or sharps, and I can sound decent for 3-4 consecutive measures.
My first oboe teacher said that I would play the pitch and ignore the rhythm. She asked why I did that. I told her because that’s the way Andy Williams sang it.
“Andy’s not here. Play it the way it’s written.”
CSC,
If you like Scene, my guess is you’ll like “Morning Mood” by Grieg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj7vHmejrPA
Some music just elicits passion.
Oboe is one of my favorite instruments, its sound has a human voice- like, poignant intensity. Has to be played well, though. Actually, for some reason I connect well with oboe players, I do know a few and at least three of them are glimmer-worthy;)
To play oboe well there is a certain kind of sensitivity needed. Paired with good nerves and lungs and a talent for reed-making.
“I do know a few and at least three of them are glimmer-worthy;)”
That’s how I feel about Women who can play the piano. It just adds so much to their appeal.. If they can play classical piano, oh it’s on. Like I will marry them in a heartbeat..
Just let me find out LO can play the piano. I’ll lose my freakin mind.
🤯
MJ,
for me, I’m a bit demanding, it’s not enough that they play, they have to play well..
Piano is nice, too, how do you feel about cellists? Also, a good percussionist can be attractive 😃
Of course the most attractive instrumentalists are banjo players!@imho and who else? You, MJ?
Thank you @Limerent Emiritus
Ooh, I do love that. What a beautiful rendition. I used to just hear music. But now…I feel I understand. In my mind, here, I see different natural elements “waking up”…an ecosystem asking itself questions among the different species…taking a big morning stretch as the sun lightens the sky. Or, I see a neighborhood coming to life. It’s just glorious.
As for your oboe…you certainly play better than I do! Or most people, for that matter. And, as for your teacher telling you to play as it’s written, I can see that. But…that is what a teacher does. I hope you still take time to play as you want, as your soul wants. Even as you also work on your technique 🙂
Dear March—Come in—(1320)
Emily Dickinson
Dear March—Come in—
How glad I am—
I hoped for you before—
Put down your Hat—
You must have walked—
How out of Breath you are—
Dear March, how are you, and the Rest—
Did you leave Nature well—
Oh March, Come right upstairs with me—
I have so much to tell—
I got your Letter, and the Birds—
The Maples never knew that you were coming—
I declare – how Red their Faces grew—
But March, forgive me—
And all those Hills you left for me to Hue—
There was no Purple suitable—
You took it all with you—
Who knocks? That April—
Lock the Door—
I will not be pursued—
He stayed away a Year to call
When I am occupied—
But trifles look so trivial
As soon as you have come
That blame is just as dear as Praise
And Praise as mere as Blame—
*******
The tiptoes of April are in shimmy —
I’m enjoying this melancholy —
https://youtu.be/1kaL8pp_m9M?si=UsH0f0WT54tH0c40 — Duke of Darkness: Symphony of Shadows x Eternal Nightfall
https://youtu.be/PLPId_awRvc?si=hqajCEoQfVUYT8p8 — What People Feel When You Decide to Walk Away — Carl Jung
“Anxiety is love’s greatest killer. It makes others feel as you might when a drowning man holds on to you. You want to save him, but you know he will strangle you with his panic.“ —
@snow i love the moody music…and may have to avail myself of that (instead of my usual techno ambient) as I work today…vive la difference!
…re: the walking away. that was timely for me….thank you for posting that. it’s so hard to do, for some reason (guilt? desire? boredom? all three? more?) but…a skill I would like to hone.
Hi all! I am 37, male, with a wife and 4-year-old son. My wife and I have been together for over 10 years and married for almost 7.5.years. While we’ve had our share of ups and downs, like all couples, on the whole we are happy and have been together since the day we went on our first date in 2014 and have always been faithful to one another.
In learning about limerence, I recognize now that there were a few times in the past when I experienced it for extended periods of time. This recently started happening again for the first time in over a decade – but now, I am married and a father, and so it has to be taken much more seriously. My LO is a 31-year-old single female at my office who started about the same time with me, about 6 months ago. Over the past few months we have become increasingly close as friends, talking alot at work and WhatsApping and such outside of the office. In the past 1-2 months, the obsession has really begun, and I find myself thinking about her often, sometimes to the point of not wanting to deal with any of the other responsibilities in my life. Today, I think the emotional tidal wave gave me a terrible headache that forced my wife to spend the entire afternoon alone with our son instead of all 3 of us being together. Nothing in the behavior of my LO indicates any kind of reciprocity or any belief that we are anything but friends. Yes, I like the high that this obsession brings, but also I know it is a baseless fantasy that could be very destructive if followed upon. Any advice on what to do? Any chance I could maintain a friendship with my LO?
Welcome J! It sounds like you are suffering from limerence. Your LO and thoughts of your LO trigger feel-good hormones in you. Based on what you shared, it seems like you are seeking those feel-good hormones even to the point of interfering with your priorities. The BEST thing for you to do right now is to distract yourself from daydreaming about your LO. I know that’s hard. When I was in your situation, I used distractions like running, YouTube videos about running, planning my next race, ice baths, engaging in the LwL community and Candy Crush to distract myself from thinking about my LO. You need to find what works for you. Unfortunately, the daydreams will create bigger problems in the future so it’s best to get that under control now.
Dr L offers many resources to help you deprogram your brain. The top two priorities when you want to relieve yourself from limerence are to go no contact and to live with purpose.
To answer your question, most people can’t remain friends with their LO.
I recommend that you explore LwL and see what stands out to you.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/blog-archive/
Best wishes!
Welcome J
Lovisa is correct with everything she mentioned. She is the Community Den Mother of the forum and gives very wise advice.
Use all the tools here that you can, that will help you. I’ve been major limerent for a much younger Co-Worker and currently going through something similar with another younger Co-Worker. This time trying not to make it so limerent in nature. Yet Lovisa is correct that Friendship is darn near impossible. In my case though, I have no SO and neither does my Lady Friend. It’s become complicated but I’m managing a Friendship without losing my mind, for the moment..
The biggest help for me has been to go Limited Contact (LC) when necessary. I would advise you to limit your contact with your Co-Worker until you learn how to manage what you’re feeling. It’s no joke. Limerence can become crippling if not taken seriously and keeping it under control.
My story and many others like it are posted all over the forum. Please keep us posted with your progress..
Hello MJ
Sounds pretty similar to my LE… but both LO and I have SO’s. I know she loves her hus and I love my wife
I think at this point she is enjoying having a close male friend, with no romantic entanglements. I think we “orbit” each other well
I admit… the pain is often quite horrible, I have suffered a LOT in the last 4 months
So, I find it odd that as as of right now… I just wish to continue being with her as much as I can
“The biggest help for me has been to go Limited Contact (LC) when necessary. I would advise you to limit your contact with your Co-Worker until you learn how to manage what you’re feeling. It’s no joke. Limerence can become crippling if not taken seriously and keeping it under control.”
This is VERY true… it is no joke at all, and has been at times crippling. I realy realy do not recommend it.
But I find find myself unable AND unwilling to break free of her
“I know she loves her husband and I love my wife”
I used to say I loved my Wife too. I also loved Strippers and porn and any other lady that satisfied my selfish behavior.. Now I have nobody.
Be careful with what you say you are unable AND unwilling to break free of.
Thank you MJ, Lovisa, and everyone else who has been so welcoming here. It seems like once limerence starts to set in, most folks here advise to either limit or cut off contact with the LO. Is that right, that at the first sign of limerence, things need to be dialed down, or else the situation will get worse? If I take one of those approaches, should I tell LO about, or just do so will not mentioning it overtly? Some here seem to think I am just about at the point where limerence could become crippling – is that correct? And if so, what does that look like?
What does that look like? Well let’s just say it’s been three years almost since the last I saw her. Last month a current co-worker (LO is a former co-worker) sent me an invitation to her and her husband’s 10 year vow renewal. I asked my wife (who I disclosed to in Jan 2023) if she wanted to come with me. It is in July of this year. My wife said “Is she (LO) going to be there? Cause I am not going if she is going to be there! I don’t want to spend a whole evening watching you pine over her!”
It looks ugly. Like spending three years almost trying to earn her trust back. Every step back seeming like ten steps back. Every side eye you get for every suspicious love song you sing while doing whatever. Knowing one of your sons will never forgive you for hurting his mother.
All the while still getting intrusive thoughts here and there, talking in your sleep and not remembering that name is forever banned so I watch my tongue. It’s ugly is what it is. If anything learn from all my many, many mistakes. Try your damndest to not put your wife through what I am still putting mine through, even as I try every day to do the right thing.
I would advise you to not disclose anything, being that you and LO are currently Friends and have not crossed any boundaries thus far. The longer you continue to ruminate and dwell on what you think the two of you could become, will only cause you more disillusionment and sadness, when/if you disclose and her reaction is negative. There have not been too many success stories on here that come from disclosure.
The crippling nature of limerence is wrapped up in uncertainty and hope. Plus any breadcrumb of positivity you get from LO is going to drive up the fantasies and ruminating. The reality of your actual life with your Wife and family (and what ever may be wrong with it) could bring that roller coaster high you feel over LO, down to a hellish crushing low..
Do whatever you can do to keep limerence fires at bay. Forget the great hope of LO and what she could probably never fully give you. Unless you’re ready to trade-in the life you’ve made with your SO and child.
To me it sounds as if LO has made no intentions to be any more than friends. If she knows you’re in a committed relationship, why should she think to step it up a notch? Is she the homewrcking type?? Do you want that in a Woman?? I can’t make that call for you. But I do totally understand the desire and craving for more from someone else. If you really love your Wife then focus on her now. Your young Son needs you to be good example too.
Hi J,
When you are closer friends with someone but realize that limerence may be causing you too much distress and you want to pull away, Dr. L advocates for a staged withdrawal. Meaning slowing pull away little by little over time. Going cold turkey can be jarring to LO and may invite blunt questions. Telling LO your intention to go LC or NC is basically disclosure which can also lead to problems.
Set little LC goals each week. A little less texting, not seeking her out as much, no alone time, whatever it takes. Do it slowly and intentionally and over time.
Btw, I’m someone who disclosed to a work LO, it went bad, and now I have no friendship whatsoever with LO. If you want to salvage a future friendship don’t disclose, just withdraw for however long, and maybe you come out the other side OK and can rebuild a healthy non limerent friendship with LO. But in a lot of cases, once limerence sets in deep, friendship is probably out of the question.
Hi @J
I will just second what all the other limmies here say. I wish I had come for advice in my own episode at a similar point. Instead, I leapt down the rabbit hole and have made a mess of my life and broken my heart at the same time.
Yes, I would advocate for staged, mindful withdrawal…since I think your LO is a work contact, true NC may not be possible.
I once heard a councilor talk about the terms “No Contact” and “Low Contact” as the usual options posited as ways to taper off or starve limerence. But, he said he believed there was a better way to look at contact – especially if one can’t just cut the cord. He used the phrase “Conscious Contact”.
This is a kind of contact where you take a breath, organize your mind, and attempt to stay away from intensity in your dealings with LO. I see it as a form of LC, but with mindfulness very much engaged. IDK if it’s helpful to have in your toolbox, but maybe…
(full discloure: I’m in NC right now but might dip into LC/CC because on one hand, I don’t want to disclose, and on the other I don’t want to come across as a weird, middle-aged, ghosting lady.)
I’ll be curious to see what tack you take. Sometimes, it takes a few tries. 🙂
J,
Chiming back in to support what Speedwagon and CSC are telling you.
Not sure anything can be gained from disclosure. What’s your imagined good outcome, whatever her response (which can’t be predicted) is?
I’m well behind Speedwagon in the steps towards LC but definitely on the path now in both lowering contact and doing what CSC described as “Conscious Contact” (good term CSC!).
It’s not without its sticky or emotionally heavy moments, but it comfortably beats the limbo I was stuck in for 18 months. The highs of that are great but the lows terrible.
It would/will be difficult at first to go against what your limerent brain screams at you to do … but give it a bit of time and hopefully you’d feel you’d ‘return to yourself’ a bit. Some of the time now, I find I have a bit more bandwith available to find enjoyment in other areas of life again. Limerence grabbed a lot of that away.
Hi J,
Good stuff for reaching out to us.
I’ll respond from personal LE experience that has some similarities to yours, and what I have learned about the neuroscience from trawling this site.
“Over the past few months we have become increasingly close as friends, talking alot at work and WhatsApping and such outside of the office”
This sounds achingly familiar. You probably knew in your heart of hearts that as this friendship grew, something was ‘not quite right’ about growing it? (in your life situation, that is). I went well over a year of ramping all of that stuff up and up and up while voices in the back of my head nagged away at me not to…
“Any chance I could maintain a friendship with my LO?”
The trouble you’ll have is that once limerence has set in, it really has no upper limit in how much you will crave the LO. Whatever amount you get of her company, attention and the dopamine high, the brain will crave even more. It is like classic addiction – just to a person. The higher the high, the lower the following low. Listen to what that headache of yours yesterday was telling you. Writing here shows that you took the first step to doing that.
Whenever I wanted more and couldn’t get it, I’d crash and ruminate and not be properly present for my SO. Weekends and holidays from work could turn into an internal nightmare. I have seen several others here say similar.
I feel like I have just dumped cold water over your idea of being friends with her, and I don’t want to completely do that. I’m on a long tail end of my LE now, after nearly two years. I’ve always maintained I want a friendship going forward, as we’d had one for a long time before I got the glimmer for her. But I am having to accept that might be a much different and reduced ‘friendship’ to the one I had – and imagined keeping and growing – at the height of limerence. And even the need to have it at all is reducing as I renegotiate all that in my mind. It is work in progress and I don’t know where it will end.
I think you’d similarly need to reduce your expectations of the sort of friendship you can have. Could it be an honest one that your SO knows about and is OK with existing, for example? If yes, how to get it there? If no, what do you want it to be and how can you renegotiate that with yourself? I found the limerent version of my ‘friendship’ with LO just got increasingly insustainable alongside my relationship with SO, until the cracks showed too much with both of them.
I’d also add you may still be in the position where you can cut this off before the limerence ramps up to a really uncomfortable level, so that’s a choice you now have with each action you take. I may be in a minority on LwL by saying I don’t think digging yourself out necessarily means having no friendship at all with the person. But it does need brutal honesty with yourself about the friendship. By picking this path you would not be choosing the easy route but one that needs self-discipline to a level that I can’t even find the words to explain. And an awareness that the more you build up the highs, the bigger the lows will also be – including the ultimate low as you let go of any false hope. You can’t have the highs without the lows.
Your limerent brain (feelings) will try incredibly hard to get and stay ahead of your executive brain (reasoning) too. That’s worth staying aware of. Nearly always, the ‘friendship’ story that limerents tell themselves is part of a sort of bargaining between the two.
Sorry if any of this was hard to read. The purpose was to help you be as ‘eyes wide open’ as you can as you walk your way through this. All you have done so far is something a lot of us here have done! Please keep talking to us as you navigate it, if it helps. People here have a lot of experience that can support you.
Thanks so much Lim-a-rant. To push back a little bit – what’s so bad about having some limerence, as long as nothing happens as a result of it that is problematic? Right now, I feel much more excited to go to/be at work then I did before my LE started. I feel much more confident there, more upbeat, more myself, fueled by my excitement at hearing, seeing, speaking with, or simply being in Her incredible presence. What’s so bad about all of that?
Hi J,
It’s a good question. I felt every bit of what you described and had the same kind of thought processes as you.
It sounds like you’re experiencing the pleasurable parts of limerence without much of the painful parts. That’s common to start with. DrL calls it the euphoria phase.
From my own experience and a lot of others I have read about or chatted to here, that nearly always turns to a stage where we crave more and more interaction with LO, feel pain when we can’t get it, etc. It becomes straight up addiction to that dopamine hit. It won’t be a ‘friendship’ like other more natural friendships we have as long as one or both have feelings. Also the “real life” guilt about our SO/family can start to catch up. You seemed to allude to a few bits like that in your initial post. My experience was that all those negative bits just went up and up, first to the point where disclosure to LO was very hard to resist (I did resist, but people on here who disclosed have reported worse outcomes), then to a point where the mental effort of maintaining the duality just became unsustainable around either my SO or LO. It took over 18 months to reach that point – months I can’t get back. I am still not properly out of the woods.
You sound like you think you might be able to hold it at the level you’re currently at without getting the bad bits. I don’t judge you if you try to (it is what I did). Maybe you don’t feel it is full limerence yet. Mine is just a report ‘from the field’ that it did get more intense and at many times pretty unpleasant. She was on my mind all the time. Thats despite me thinking I could be an exception to the rule.
I don’t mean to sound judgey, just be realistic in my answer to your question.
I am happy to answer more questions if you have them, and others here will be too. I’ve had great support from the LwL community.
hahah …ah sweet summer child, @J
i can’t wait to hear @LaR reply to this one. :))
@CSC,
I didn’t keep you waiting long 😂
It’s hard, because the way @J talks, could have been me 18 months back. I thought I could be the exception to the rule and my LE be ‘the one that went well’ (damn you, Lim Brain!!).
You know, I browsed the back catalogue of LwL for months before I first spoke up. I saw just one relationship success from something that started as an LE. The guy popped back here years later and he’d married his one time LO. I forget any more details or whether we ever heard where it went after that. If anyone remembers more about that, or other ‘success stories’ it will be the site’s patron and historian @Limerent Emeritus
@J.
“… what’s so bad about having some limerence, as long as nothing happens as a result of it that is problematic? Right now, I feel much more excited to go to/be at work then I did before my LE started. I feel much more confident there, more upbeat, more myself, fueled by my excitement at hearing, seeing, speaking with, or simply being in Her incredible presence. What’s so bad about all of that?”
I know the question isn’t addressed to me, but I’d love to have a go at answering it… 🙂
Think of it like this. You go to a plant nursery. You see this cute little plant. You say to yourself: “Why, that will look perfect in my garden!”
You buy the plant. You go home. You plant the plant. You feed the plant with lots of water and nutrients. You shower the plant with loving care.
One day, you come home from work. You can’t find your gorgeous little plant anywhere. You can only see a 20-foot pine tree that’s about to uproot the foundations of your house or fall on your roof during storm season.
What does this pine tree represent? This pine tree represents addiction. Addictions don’t stay cute and little and easy to manage. Addictions grow and grow and grow. Nobody, on first indulging in an addiction, knows how big that addiction is going to grow. No one can correctly predict the damage (or the lack of damage). Nobody knows how many resources the addiction may eventually consume.
Fenna (Limerence You-Tuber) alternatively likens limerence to a carnivorous plant. You gotta be careful how much “food” you feed that plant. Because the cute little carnivorous plant has the potential to take over your life. Don’t feed the cute little plant. 🤣
Think of your mind as a beautiful, pristine ecosystem. Think of addiction as an invasive species determined to colonise that entire ecosystem and drive out all the original plants and animals.
When Dorothy Tennov was conducting her research into limerence, she didn’t quite grasp that limerence is an addiction. What modern researchers have been able to add to Tennov’s research is the insight that limerence IS an addiction – addiction to a person. Because Tennov didn’t fully understand limerence is an addiction, she sometimes got it confused with anxious-attachment behaviours.
Tennov correctly noted that limerence feels amazing at first – very pleasurable, euphoric, etc. She also correctly noted that people often feel “free” or “set free” during the early days of limerence, and this feeling of freedom is really ironic, given that glimmer/intoxication really is the start of an involuntary process in one’s mind. (Tennov’s observation again, not mine).
In other words, limerents may feel “free” in those early heady days of infatuation, but are actually moving toward the opposite of real freedom i.e. addiction. Societal restraints might feel like an “iron cage” to some people, and that’s a fair call. But addiction is an “iron cage” too, and a much less forgiving “iron cage” than the overwhelming majority of societal restraints. You can always outrun the monster that lives in the woods or the monster that lives in the city. You can’t outrun the monster that lives in your head 24/7. Addiction is a sleeping monster that may awaken at any minute.
Think about how many pop songs there are about how “love set me free” or “I met someone special and he/she set me free”. I guess this short-lived and mostly illusory sense of “freedom gained” is what people are referring to when they report that falling madly in love induces giddiness? As you observe, early limerence absolutely does have the interesting and often welcome side-effect of boosting mood and bolstering self-esteem. But beware: all highs come packaged with lows once addiction starts, and pleasure often proves fleeting.
Hello all..
I just felt I need to share some of my recent journey.
Had a great day on Friday at work, we had a group get together at lunch, I don’t usually join in on these things, but LO convinced me to come ( really, not hard for her to talk me into things )… this is the 3rd event I have attended because of her… and at least 1 person noticed, and suggested that it just “took a womans touch… how true that is. We shared some food, and she took some leftovers of food I made, for, as she described her husband, “my love”… that was very sweet of her to just casually call him that, I pointed it out to her in a chat we had today, got a nice “heart” emoji back! Her husband is a lucky guy
We had a great walk again today, I really love getting to spend that time with her alone.
But… I messaged her end of day Friday, using some of OUR developed cutesy language, and in some of her language I am learning… have a good night and good weekend, etc
When i did NOT hear back from her all weekend in reply…. I admit I kind of spun in, and had anxious panic attacks and heart pain… thought maybe she was mad at me or just ignoring me!
Turned out, she HAD replied but the message never sent properly… so I saw her reply this morning, she felt bad about it.
The moral of all this… I thought I was doing well, getting nice interactions with her ( and I have been, but I have learned I think there is almost NO upper limit to how much I crave her company )
I was suffering all weekend, until I heard from her this morning… talk about highs and lows!!
And yes… we are really just very good friends, and she also happens to be my LO… and I have told her that I love her, as a friend, which doesnt seem to weird her out
Hi New_To_Limerence, I am also new and so hardly an expert on this stuff. However, your post strikes me as one where you are very aware of what is going on in your head in terms of limerence, but you don’t seem to see it as a problem. You basically detailed your Friday through the prism of your interactions with LO – went to a work lunch at her convincing, shared food with her, went on a walk with her, got a heart emoji from her, messaged her using your special language – and then were crushed when (or so it appeared) she ignored your message and did not respond all weekend, leading to intense pain for you. To me this behavior does seem quite obsessive and not helpful nor healthy. Do you want to continue with your limerence? Where do you see/want your relationship with LO to go? Do you want to displace her husband?
Hello J
Good questions…
I have NO desire to displace, as you say, her husband ( oddly enough, I only learned his name today! She had never said it to me before )… I really do feel we are just good close friends. I am sure to any outside observer, we are involved in an EA…. perhaps we are???
That said, I admit I do CRAVE her company. After our walks, I feel at peace.
We go on almost daily hour+ walks alone, and have very good conversations about pretty much everything. Todays main topic was about her childhood and her feeling not as supported / appreciated as she would have liked, and still would like. She has internal self confidence issues, which did not know about… she seems quite strong externally. And she knows, and I have shown her, that I am a huge believer in her! I know she appreciates my support.
“… crushed when (or so it appeared) she ignored your message and did not respond all weekend, leading to intense pain for you. To me this behavior does seem quite obsessive and not helpful nor healthy. ”
I agree, I would be happy for the Limerence and Insane cravings to go away. It is not healthy at all, and causes me, even on good days, if I dont get to see her and spend quality time alone with her…. I am hurting, a LOT. Real, terrible, physical and emotional pain.
What I want is for it to go back to us being just very close friends… I am sure that is how she sees our relationship. And I can see that happening, it will take time. And I realize that my seeing her so much, esp what is really intimate walks alone, may prolong this suffering ( for me )… but I get so much pleasure from her, perhaps only a fellow Limerent can understand that level of pleasure. In a really non-creepy way I hope.
The Patience of Ordinary Things
Pat Schneider
1934 –2020
It is a kind of love, is it not?
How the cup holds the tea,
How the chair stands sturdy and foursquare,
How the floor receives the bottoms of shoes
Or toes. How soles of feet know
Where they’re supposed to be.
I’ve been thinking about the patience
Of ordinary things, how clothes
Wait respectfully in closets
And soap dries quietly in the dish,
And towels drink the wet
From the skin of the back.
And the lovely repetition of stairs.
And what is more generous than a window?
*****
Once personalized, everything, every object becomes meaningful….
Hi Limerent Emeritus,
I read „Welcome to the Monkey house“ and enjoyed it a lot! The stories are quite different in subject and quality, but that is easily explained when I understood that they were for very different magazines etc. I absolutely love his style and unlimited imagination in his dystopia stories. While I loved „Harrison Bergeron“, I felt a bit uncomfortable with „Welcome to the monkey house“ because of the implication of tolerating rape as a means to open people’s eyes.
I know that it’s hard to tell what the writer’s take on it really is, but it made me feel uneasy.
Thanks you very much for the recommendation, I enjoyed it a lot and am looking forward to „Cat‘s cradle“!
I inserted another book though before reading „Cat‘s cradle“, I‘m reading „Quiet“ by Susan Cain- very interesting, I recognize myself so much and feel very validated, having been a kid and teen who was always „too shy“, „too quiet“ and felt bad about it.
Mila,
Glad you liked Vonnegut! “Welcome to the Monkey House” was a little disturbing in that respect.
If you’re looking for something to expand into, I recommend Guy de Maupassant. “Boule de Soufe” is his most famous work. You can find it free on the net. We had to read it for the same Modern Short Stories class. It was one of the most poignant stories I have ever read.
I also really liked “After.” I sent a link to LO #4 with the comment that if anyone would appreciate it, she would. She never responded.
I found a 10 volume set of de Maupassant’s works at an estate sale. They were all published between 1910-1920 so the translation is true to the original French. It took me 2 years to get through it.
LE,
Thanks so much, will read it! I just bought „Manhattan Transfer“ by Dos Passos“, any thoughts? But it has to wait a bit. I buy to many books and they lie around waiting. I haven’t read French writers for a long time, I just realize. I‘ve read some Proust, de Beauvoir, Camus, Saint-Exupéry, Zola, but that’s all quite long ago.
*Too many books.
Mila,
I’ve never heard of the novel “Manhattan Transfer.” I’ll ask my English major daughter about it. She’s my consultant on fiction.
I haven’t read many French authors aside from de Maupassant. I might have read Camus’ “The Guest” in college but I don’t remember. We read a lot of short stories in the class. Few of them stuck.
I read Poe, Hawthorne, Ray Bradbury, and a few others. I found Hawthorne particularly depressing. He was one of those authors who you read by the fire, preferably during a storm, while listening to Harry Chapin on the stereo and drinking to the point where you don’t care if you don’t wake up. I drove from Providence, RI to Plymouth, MA in January. Bleak doesn’t begin to describe it. Hawthorne captured it perfectly. I can see why the colonist thought there were witches behind every tree.
My daughter introduced me to “feminist mythology.” I really like the genre. “Circe” by Madeline Miller is my favorite so far. http://madelinemiller.com/circe/ I’ve read a few others.
I thought about LO #4 when I read it and told her so. Typically, she didn’t respond to my message.
“Circe” sounds very appealing to me to dig in….
Snow,
Put this one in the queue…
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-purposeful-living-reading-list/#comment-23124
LE,
Last year, I went through Stephen Fry’s trio-mythology (read by himself) twice and tried to remember hundreds of major and minor characters in them and their stories; absolutely fascinating!
So anything springing from and relating to that world would be fun to me…
Paris is not stupid but earthen, the choice of Aphrodite is Instinctualized by the powerful nature, and all religions/ideologies hate her! Yet, even monks or priests are lured by her… all abstinence of lust is against human nature, though it can be reigned.
I feel lucky to have been hit by big Glimmer (LE could be controlled better if I knew what it is); one can’t find Glimmer or cultivate it deliberately, despite all scientific and psychological knowledge.
Hi LE,
I bought „Manhattan Transfer“ because I was told it‘s one of the great American novels, I think I’ll take it on my business trip end of the month.
I haven’t read Circe, but Song of Achilles by the same author, enjoyed it, so I’ll put Circe on my list now, too.
It’s bound to be sad though, I guess? Circe and Dido, two sad heroines of this time.
I read „the scarlet letter „ by Hawthorne but unfortunately cannot remember much. As stories about adulterous women go, „Madame Bovary“ and „Anna Karenina“ stayed much more with me.
Hallo fellow coffeehouse patrons,
You’re all so well-behaved when I’m not around I’m beginning to think I should stay away permanently for the sake of the common good. I seem to be an unintentionally bad influence on lovesick minds or something. Bizarre! 🙄🤣
@MJ.
“Limerence in the way it hit me was profoundly different than any other crush I’ve had on another Woman, in my entire lifetime. Never once before have I ever felt such pangs of excitement over seeing another Woman as alluring and so elegant, sexy, attractive as LO … massive depressive fallout …”
and
“I would advise you to not disclose anything, being that you and LO are currently Friends and have not crossed any boundaries thus far. The longer you continue to ruminate and dwell on what you think the two of you could become, will only cause you more disillusionment and sadness, when/if you disclose and her reaction is negative. There have not been too many success stories on here that come from disclosure.
The crippling nature of limerence is wrapped up in uncertainty and hope. Plus any breadcrumb of positivity you get from LO is going to drive up the fantasies and ruminating …
Do whatever you can do to keep limerence fires at bay…”
You write really beautifully, my friend. I’m stunned by the beauty of your writing. There’s clearly a very soulful man underneath whatever facetious or rascally facade you sometimes choose to present to the world. I’m loving the emotional depth, and also the emotional maturity. Sending you warm wishes. 🙂
Yes, I concur, @Sammy @MJ
@MJ you are a beautiful writer.
@CSC.
“Concur” is such a splendid word, no? 🙂
Actually, it’s amazing to hear MJ explain – in fairly accurate terms – how limerence feels and unfolds, and the likely implications of certain courses of action…
I love it when people can finally put some puzzle pieces together, and describe what they’ve learned in their own words. For example, MJ says (in slightly more flowery language) that occasional warm responses from LO will just deepen and/or reinforce the infatuation, and that’s spot on.
I did not know MJ lost his mother. I think grief can magnify feelings of romantic attraction, and maybe a lot of people in midlife especially can relate to the unlikely conflation of love and sorrow in their hearts, since they’re often losing a parent for the first time.
I think an LO can sometimes feel so special because the mind of the limerent unconsciously thinks: “This is one person who could make up for all I’ve lost in life. If I secured the affection of this one person, then I wouldn’t ever feel sad or empty again, etc.”
Desire seems to be deep attachment stuff that gets all mixed up in one’s head (sometimes thrillingly) with sex. Even though I’m a homosexual male, I can appreciate that to MJ, women mean “dopamine, dopamine, dopamine”. Dopamine makes brains feel really good. But in limerence, brains go beyond “feeling really good” and start “feeling high”. 😜
@sammy
i concur on concur! it’s a concuration of concurrences! 🙂
yes, you nailed it. and you and i are alike in that it is not women, but men, who say to us, “dopamine!” ….i love a good, handsome man. and i am not able to resist their charm if they pay me attention.
yes, it’s interesting what you say about grief. i have come to realize i am in grief, and probably have been for several years. i don’t think i ever really grieved my youth. i don’t think i ever grieved for the life i gave up, just to keep myself safe. i don’t think i ever grieved for…the choices i did not take.
when i was younger, i thought i would take chances, become a force. then, my wounds caught up to me. i settled in with a caring man, but life was devoid of passion. i was cared for. i found solace and quiet, where i felt more secure.
but, my le’s (this 3rd one especially) have revealed i have stayed too long in the safety zone. my soul craves the passion and fire i have tried so hard to starve. this is…grief, and a kind of whiplash for me.
when i read your reply, i realized, it’s no coincidence that my lo (#3) is 30. that is the exact age i was at, when i settled in to my safe choice. now, it’s 20 years later, and i look at him and see what i was. i see what i lost, and i see he has the chance to do what i did not do. and i think that’s why i love him with the intensity that i do. he is gorgeous, young, and full of promise and freedom. i yearn for that.
i have to find a way to have it, even without him, and even though i am working at a 20 year defecit. i am vowing to get more explorative in my life, even though lo will not be in it…and even though i feel self-conscious and tentative. i must send the universe a sign that i am doing something, not sitting by, submerging again. and i feel that if i do that, hold up my end, that i will be able to transform.
sorry i can’t muster the effort right now to use the shift key to get capital letters. it’s weird, but i can’t. 🙂
CSC
@csc
I’M PleaSEd (rapidly gives up weak attempt at humour) to see you mustered the strength to type capitals when signing off your name!
That is the nirvana for many of us, isn’t it? How to get what we need, yearn for, are missing or grieving, without using an LO as the crutch to provide it? (Strictly rhetorical question)
We WILL get there!
” i am not able to resist their charm if they pay me attention.”
Probably why lots of mid life limerents have younger LOs. The attention from someone younger from your preferred sex is very …. nice. Hell I still remember a compliment of being asked out for drinks from an older guy back when I was in my mid 20’s. That $hit felt good lol
We feel relevant again. Especially if our marriage/LTR has “settled” into a safe routine. We know now from our LOs we can still “catch a fish” even if we know we have to throw it back in the water.
We power through all kinds of things to better ourselves for LO err … ourselves. Wardrobe changes, weight loss, working out, etc I know I did. Anything to catch her attention. For her to notice I wore something new that I hadn’t before. “Adam have you lost weight?” “Did you cut your hair?” “That outfit looks nice on you.”
I know when I finally decided to quit smoking I so wanted to call her and tell her. That I was motivated by her encouragement for me to do so when she was still working there. “Adam you’ve been smoking way too much today. That’s not good for your heart condition. You need to slow down.” Adam: “Yes ma’am.”
And I am very proud to say my wife decided to follow suit and this is the longest she’s gone without smoking in all the attempts she’s made in 25 years. We both haven’t smoked in over a year now. I am very proud of her. To tell LO that we both worked together to quit a bad habit …. just to hear her praise …. damn limerence.
Adam, Adam, Adam…
Sometimes this job is just too easy.
Family Ties – Kiss and Don’t Tell:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MVK8aXkKAI
Family Ties – The Choice:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ7XHzY2OH4
L.E.
Always the voice of reason. Doing the right thing and walking all the way up to edge of the cliff and then getting scared of the consequences and doing the “right” out of fear are not the same to me. Thankfully I never had THAT “choice” thrown in my face. I might not have feared the reaper.
Adam,
Consider yourself lucky that you never were faced with the choice.
LOs go off-script. If you’re attached, trying to be a friend or confidante can come back to bite you.
When LO #2 and I were still together, a woman showed up at my door at 11 PM one night and offered me that choice.
@Sammy,
It’s good to see you again Old Friend. Thanks so much for all your kind words up there. It’s been a long strange trip, but I do feel I have become more in touch with my most inner self..
So much emotion, feeling and pain comes with limerence and given the situation with Moms death, (years ago now,) I do believe that has played a part in tapping down into deeper depths within myself. I try to explain limerence how I see it, how it feels, takes hold and sometimes the right combination of words meld together in just the right way, so that’s how I post.
The way you’ve always written back to me and throughout the forum has always been thought provoking and I’ve learned a lot from you in a very short time. You replied back to me in the Busy Busy Coffeehouse thread last month, concerning all the replies I got from my current Lady Friend saga. I’ve been working on replies to the many who gave their opinions and you are included as well. Eventually I will post it, but it’s long and I’m still working on it. I hope you’re around to read it whenever I do. I think my insight is good thus far, but you will give a fair opinion again I hope..
I just wanted you to know I do appreciate you immensely and hope you’ll stick around. I really don’t know how well I’d be doing without this forum and the people I’ve met here. You and so many others give stellar insight, that has helped me navigate better direction and how to relate to others. I really can’t thank you enough..
Take care my Friend..
😉
“LOs go off-script. If you’re attached, trying to be a friend or confidante can come back to bite you.”
@LE
We need a thread, just for quotes like this that should be made into Lwl Gospel..
Beautifully stated there LE.. Something like that almost happened to me at work last night. It comes from out of nowhere and it’s maddening but it’s so freaking true..
L.E.
I recently got a notification of someone replying to a youtube comment I made. I had watched a video some weeks back about limerence. I had made the comment, basically what you just said. Something to the effect of “even when the LO is the one that initiates confiding in you, it can be dangerous.” The channel owner agreed with me saying that being a soundboard to someone you are limerent for is always dangerous no matter who initiates.
Someone else comment “she knew what she was doing. she is a single divorced mother looking for another man to latch onto.”
I was not happy with that comment. I’ve been stewing over it all day. How dare this person assume something like about her! This person doesn’t know what kind of woman she is!
But in the back of my head. Did she? At last update from co-workers she is with a man my age right now. They are engaged already. Adam, DID she know exactly what she was doing? I don’t like this in my head L.E.
Adam, don’t let your mind go there. He may be your age, but obviously available to her.
@CSC.
I have no idea what gender you are. My first guess is that you’re a heterosexual woman. My second guess is you’re a cyborg. My third guess is you’re a cyborg who’s never heard of capital letters… 🙂
But let’s focus on the positive – at least you’re not one of those awful ladies who think they’re some imaginary species of ancient bird and who spell their name in emojis. I met one of those once. She exhibited the strangest envy for Frenchwomen. She seemed to believe (delusionally, I’m sure) that Frenchwomen do nothing but eat cupcakes and have tacky trysts with nameless Russian diplomats. As you can well imagine, I was appalled. No, not about the Russian diplomats. Russian diplomats can take care of themselves. I was appalled about the danger posed to delicious cupcakes everywhere. This woman is a menace to every bakery in Christendom and shouldn’t be permitted to roam the streets. 😲
She also informed me – correctly – that I “don’t understand rosy-grown women”. As if I would evet wish to understand rosy-grown women! I read Germaine Greer’s “The Female Eunuch” and Simone de Beauvoir’s “The Second Sex” for the express purpose of never having to understand rosy-grown women. (Don’t tell anyone, but I think Germaine may have borrowed a few choice ideas from Simone, and then clothed those ideas in slightly more elegant language. “The Female Eunuch” is just de Beauvoir plus Shakespeare. There – I’ve saved you the trouble of having to read either tome). 😉
Anyway, back to this “rosy-grown woman” character. I wanted to tell her that the adjective “rosy-grown” makes her sound like a tomato, and sounding like a tomato is even more ridiculous than pretending to be an imaginary species of ancient bird who routinely spells her name in emojis… But at least she’s not comparing herself to the goddess Aphrodite these days. Oh wait – she is. My bad. 🤣
Don’t panic. You will get used to my sense of humour – eventually.
Either that, or you will go insane. Either alternative is fine by me. I just bought shares in three of the world’s largest pharmaceutical companies. Crazy people are actually very good for business. 🙄😜
Dopamine is fascinating in terms of the role it plays in romantic attraction. I have a theory – if heterosexual women could accept their male partners get a hit of dopamine from attractive women in general and from imagery featuring attractive women, then that concession would take a fair bit of strain out of heterosexual relationships.
For example, a woman wouldn’t need to stress out if her husband admires another pretty lady on the street. Such “window-shopping” doesn’t represent an implicit desire to cheat, but rather, it’s just the male brain releasing dopamine in the way male brains are designed to release dopamine. Of course, husbands always should show proper respect to wives. I’m not talking about disrespect. But wives don’t really need to have nervous breakdowns every time their husbands show lingering evidence of heterosexual male arousal patterns. One should be grateful, really, one has a husband who appreciates the female form. It would be most awkward to have a husband who doesn’t appreciate the female form. Outside Britain and the Commonwealth, it might even be a cause of mild alarm. 🙂
I was in a large shopping centre the other day. There was a poster of a glamorous female model in the window of an upmarket lingerie shop. Two young men walked past. The eyes of one young man strayed in the direction of the photograph. His mate caught him looking and joshed him: “Oi! She’s NOT looking at you!” (The glamorous female model was looking upwards in the photograph).
I am a biological male who experienced a lengthy limerence for another biological male. I will stick with the “homosexual” label for now, since my shoe collection isn’t big enough to justify the “transgender” label. But let it be said that I can run faster in five-inch heels than any Bond girl. That’s actually on my resume – I’m very proud of that. Heels above five inches cause back pain, though. I don’t do back pain. I don’t do stairs. I don’t do queues. I don’t do autographs. I don’t do scented candles. I don’t do recycled napkins.
My older sister is a biological female who experienced limerence for another biological female. (Actually, she’s experienced a couple of limerent episodes in her life, always for other females. But who’s counting? Certainly not me. I don’t understand rosy-grown women).
I found it astonishingly easy to support my older sister while she was going through one of her limerent episodes. All I had to do was hug her whenever she wanted a hug and tell her that she really should consider crying more often – tears bring out of the colour of her eyes. (It was not hard to pay her this compliment – this compliment was sincere. The occasional outburst of waterworks really did most marvellously and exquisitely enhance what her mama gave her). 😜
What my older sister and I have both learned as **cough, cough** supposedly homosexual persons **cough, cough** is that all the evils of the world can’t be pinned on the opposite sex. I had a male LO, so I guess there are a couple dodgy males out there. (Actually, I’m fine with dodgy males. Dodgy males are my exact physical and psychological type. The only angels I’m interested in are “fallen angels”). My older sister has had a minimum of two female LOs – I guess there are a few “interesting” women out there, too. 🤣🤣
My older sister was visiting my family and I recently, but now she has flown back to her home state. In our fridge, she left behind some of her food supplies, including probiotic granola from the organic shop. My very unpretentious father decided he was going to eat my older sister’s leftover granola. The outcome was as amusing as one might expect.
Sammy’s dad: “This tastes like … gravel!”
Sammy: “A glowing recommendation if ever I heard one!”
@MJ.
Glad to hear you are hanging in there. I know limerence can unleash a tsunami of emotion, and it’s very hard to capture in words even a fraction of the feeling felt…
So you practise your writing and draft your responses, do you? Well, no wonder your writing is so good! 😉
Being a gay man, both written and verbal expression come very easily to me – way too easily. And because writing is so easy for me, it’s not a skill of mine I actually value. There is something tremendously noble and beautiful, however, in having to struggle to find out what one wants to say, like most straight men have to do. I don’t share straight men’s struggle for clear and fluid self-expression. I just rattle off whatever ideas occur to me in the moment. But I think the fruits of struggle are incredibly precious.
My father is a straight man. Whenever he talks to me, I want to press the fast-forward button. (He takes too long to get to the point, and sometimes he doesn’t have a point). But I know the loving thing to do is to simply let my father ramble until he gets out whatever he wants to get out. Sometimes, he’s extraordinarily witty, but often he is very slow. I can almost watch his brain groping for language.
The strength of sexual and emotional feeling you have for females … is probably quite normal in evolutionary terms if a little delicate in societal terms. It reminds me of a couple of heterosexual male classmates I had back when I was fifteen. One day, two of them joked they were going to “look up pictures of Pammy” on our school computers. (Pamela Anderson was obviously the biggest female pin-up of the late 90s, and looking up racy pictures of her was clearly not appropriate behaviour at a conservative Christian institution).
I’m afraid I was an awful prig about the whole thing. I was a smarmy little hypocrite. I was like: “But would what Jesus do? Do you reckon Jesus would look up pictures of Pammy?” 🤣🤣🤣
Fortunately, the boys didn’t hold a grudge. A couple of years later, one of them even approached me (at the school formal) and hugged me and told me I’d been some huge positive influence in his life in a Christian way. I probably didn’t deserve that compliment, since even back then I was secretly battling my own limerence demons…
In the spirit of the awards season – a couple of awards for writing. Most detours in a single post: Sammy, glad we could catch you in one of your “up” moods. 😜 Sometimes you roam so far into the territory of the absurd that you remind me of my first boyfriend, a would-be comic. That’s a compliment.
I read your competition entry while on my way home with some cupcakes in my shopping bag – I kid you not! 😯 Otherwise I’m not sure if you were alluding to me – or if there have been other French women mentioned on this site. I don’t remember any jealousy or diplomats however.
Best teaser: MJ, are you sure you don’t work in tv? You’ve had us on the edge of our seats for at least a month now… And this is at least the second time! We’re all asking: how does the LF saga continue??
“You’ve had us on the edge of our seats for at least a month now… And this is at least the second time! We’re all asking: how does the LF saga continue??”
@Trifles,
Lmao at your response.
I’m flattered, but its all really no biggie..
About the only teaser I’ll give out is, somehow, through all that drama our friendship has become way better. But not in a “really better” kind of way. (If you get what I mean) That being said, I’m ok with things, but the problem is she’s starting to “glimmer-up” and I’m struggling to keep it from happening. I know it sounds weird but it’s complicated and she’s complicated. The more I deal with her, the more I’m finding that out to be. My limerent tendencies do not seem to help either. It’s aggravating. @Limerent Emeritus said it best about LOs going off script. Even though I’ll fight tooth and nail I’m not limerent for this Woman. Maybe it does apply to Lady Friends too..
My reply from last month is delayed because so many of you responded and I wanted to give proper response to what you all had to say. Since that Coffeehouse is closed now, I have to reply to all the replies in a new thread. Which I’m hoping to wrap up soon and will post.
Stay tuned..
And thanks for your interest.. 😉
@Sammy
i am hetero F (though not a very femme one, i wear a lot of black, and have the sense of humor of a 12 yer old boy), in my style, i am, according to my friends, “sexy ninja” though I refer to it as “advanced dirtbag”.
I really like your sense of humor, I’m so glad you wrote at length so I could truly get a taste. I had an English dad, and my sense of humor is definitely on the fringe, but probably within range of yours. So, you are safe with me. And I hopefully am likewise safe in sharing my own humor too. L:)
That being said, I will tell you (since you shared you are good at running in heels, it does sound like you are practically cheetah-level…an amazing skill!) that because of my predilection for the young blood, I have (purely as a thought experiment!) wondered, could I transition to M, then I could live as elegant, older gay M….at which point, because I had shed my middle-aged hetero F shell, I could have increased access to what I….crave. God, I’m awful. Yes, likely part cyborg at this point, and less like a Simone de B character, more like an Ursula le G character, in my current evolution. 🙂
Whatever, technically we are anonymous here, so I am having fun, I don’t want to seem like I am diminishing, in any way, the effort it takes, in this world, to be Out, or to be trans. Those individuals who are, are some of the toughest people I have ever met, and I am in awe of them.
Anyway – I am just letting you know how delightful it was to dive into a long and interesting message from you. You, too, are a wonderful writer. And your sister is lucky to have the non-judgemental acceptance and support you have given her. Truly, though I’m not limerent for a female (yet! I can’t rule out that it would never happen!) I am definitely needing hugs, pity, compassion, at this phase.
I had a rough night last night, and now that I’ve hit the lonely, high plateau of NC before the death of hope really sets in, I am having a hard time. I feel like I’ve lost the only source of fun in my life, the only link to the me I want to be. I am left with the me I am, and the Big Mess of sorting myself out…it is not at a thrilling “stella got her groove back” point. It’s at the “WT actual F” point…and it is scary and depressing. (Still, our fearless heroine presses on, attempting to crawl from the Pit, into the sunlight of Her Purpose Whatever the Hell That May Be Lord Only Knows.”)
This is a very hard time, and your reply brought me a smile, and I felt less weird and alone. We must find humor even in the worst, most dark things and times.
I hope you are having a beautiful, baroque, and utterly worthy day, filled with thick, high quality cloth napkins and free from the interruptive fragrance of scented candles.
With Capital Letters,
CSC
CSC
I often get told I either look like I’m going to the opera or that I stepped out of Victorian age with what I wear. “Adam were are you going?” “To the supermarket.” “Dressed like that?”
In fact just last month I bought me another pocket watch and new Albert chain. I am thinking of adding a walking cane to my wardrobe. Monocle too much? lol
@Adam
ah yes, I like to call that look “Late-stage Dickensian Splendour”. Sorry, but if one does *not* look like you they going to the opera when they go to the supermarket, are they really *going* to the supermarket at all? I posit: no, not really.
I think it’s wonderful you express yourself through clothing. I live in a city where many people do. It’s a joy to see them. Even on the worst days here, when you see someone expressing themselves, having the courage to do so, and the creativity, it is beautiful.
Do the cane! You can always leave it home if you don’t like it. And it is much less dangerous than a penny farthing.
oops @Adam
typo – “does….not look like they…are going to the opera”
“I often get told I either look like I’m going to the opera or that I stepped out of Victorian age with what I wear.”
@Adam,
Lmao!! 🤣🤣
And on top of that you listen to Dope Lemon?
Let me find out you got that blasting out in the car..
Not me but examples I found online regarding my casual vs formal. The casual I am actually working on. Already ordered the waistcoat and suspenders.
Casual
https://pin.it/hMv2W4zrn
Formal
https://pin.it/7co5LEXpu
https://pin.it/7co5LEXpu
I just don’t look as good as these dudes. Lol
Ooh, nice!
As long as we’re sharing styles, my casual is basically some gothy or fantasy T-shirt with dark pants, but to dress up I go romantic goth—velvet, lace, flutter sleeves, costume jewelry I found on the Net, etc. 🙂
I echo SL with the “Ooh nice!” 😜 Where do you get these pictures, Adam? Isn’t that (casual dude) the sexy stablehand from LaR’s farm? Sorry LaR and the other dude (he’s too young!)
And out of curiosity, what is the story behind those suspenders and their design?
S.L
Be still my heart. Goth and steampunk formal wear for women make me weak in the knees lol. Victorian too. But then something as simple as a sundress will get my attention too.
Trifles
I got the pictures from Pintrest. Said casual guy is a models for a German or Scandinavia (can’t recognize the native language on the site) website I frequent to find local equivalents as international shipping costs a lot. Unfortunately I don’t look as good as him at the same age lol
As for the suspenders I found them on etsy. I’d been watching them for some time. And I caught the seller putting them on sale for 50% off. So $60 instead of $120. They are hand made from a seller in the Ukraine.
As far as the design I usually seen them referred to as “groomsmen suspenders” or “harness suspenders”. They wrap around the back and over the shoulders instead of the usual Y traditional suspenders. But I do not know the origin of their design.
@Adam
Ooh, those are choice. I love seeing a man who loves to dress. Whenever I see one, I make it a point to go up and give a compliment. It is ever so much fun to watch a man feel confident right in front of my face, to watch him light up and kind of preen for a moment. These are wonderful!
Well, those pants are certainly not going anywhere, anytime soon without considerable effort and dedication! …And I will say, the harness-ness-ness of it all is a very interesting contrast with his rugged “I can take care of myself” demeanor. Now is that so?….
…equally, I am interested in the Purple Neckwear. Is that an ascot or a cravat? Is there a difference? Either way, I am all for it.
Better guard your heart, Adam—I can get flirty in person! 😉
Sounds like we’d better get L.E. to chaperon if it’s open bar at the LwL function.
There’s been a surprising turn of events. I was in the same office as my LO (which of course seemed like heaven, I even decided to come to the office today when I could have worked from home). Now I’ve been switched to a different office (literally 2 feet across the wall). I WhatsApped my LO about how upset I was about being seperated, hope it doesn’t disrupt our friendship, etc. She barely responded, hasn’t popped over to see me, etc. Of course, since all emotions in limerence are heightened, I’m really pissed that she’s not very upset, want her to see how crushed I am, etc. Logically, this is where I should say to myself “See, She obviously doesn’t care so much for you, focus on the person who pledged her love to you (aka wife) and get Her out of your head” but of course the excitement of pining for Her keeps me from wanting to/doing that.
Hi J,
I hate to say it, but this is where you may be entering the deterioration phases. Classic analogy in addiction is that a greater and greater hit is needed to calm your LO cravings. Bit by bit the costs start to out weigh the benefits and the balance sheet gets more and more out of equilibrium towards negative feelings.
I feel that I also need to say it: Ask yourself whether you would need to worry if any of thee WhatApps ever got out or if your wife saw them?
That’s quite sobering isn’t it?
Maybe its useful to imagine that because limerence makes us bargain with reality – knowing on one hand that what we are doing is asking for trouble while at the same time bargaining reasons and excuses to continue doing just that. The cognitive dissonance involved in holding both positions simultaneously (and covering all this up at home) takes a heavy load, work usually suffers, or people at work notice. The developments mean that its time to take stock, if you can.
Hi Bewitched, why do you think I am entering the deterioration phases? Your question about my wife seeing the WhatsApp messages is a really good one, although I think I’ve kept them pretty clean (after all, if they were too much, it would scare away LO).
Hi J,
You’re right, ‘deterioration’ is the wrong word. Different stages have been defined by different researchers into limerence, but Dr L defines about 5 stages [1. initiation, 2. euphoria, 3. fixation, 4. desperation, 5. recovery].
That video on the stages of limerence is here:
https://youtu.be/WSvh9O44IB8?feature=shared
If you haven’t watched it, I think you should because he is almost certainly going to say some thing that will sound familiar to you and what you are going through.
I believe that you are mostly in stage 2. euphoria and transitioning into 3. fixation (cravings), with the uncertainty and rumination that comes with it.
Unfortunately, without addressing limerence, the next stage is almost inevitably stage 4. desperation. At that point, the pleasure from limerence that you are still experiencing now becomes outweighed by the pain (unable to get enough of LO, seeking more and more LO contact, erratic behaviour, pushing boundaries and oversharing, putting LO off with neediness, etc). The early signs of hope where you felt that incredible connection with LO can start to feel as though it is cooling off – and it seems that they don’t have genuine interest or enough interest to overcome the barriers that exist (marriage, kids, other uncertainty,…). In stage 4., limerence just begins to feel like a trap that you can’t escape. This is true for most limerents and it feels impossible to escape without working very hard to take that LO off the pedestal, cut off contact with LO, possibly even avoid LO altogether, etc.
What other commenters here are trying to do is help you dial back your feelings before its too late, or before you get sucked in too deeply. The deeper you go, the harder it is to escape. Not feeding the reverie and rumination about LO becomes really important, as this will just act to trap you ever-deeper, psychologically.
It may be difficult for you to see all this right now. Others may be able to see it better than you can (if you are leaking emotions), which is why several commenters have urged caution. Distraction away from LO can work well. Is there something else that you can focus on for a few weeks? A personal project, music, exercise, puzzles? When a thought about LO pops unbidden into your mind, one poster here recommended picturing a ‘Stop’ sign. Different things work for different people…
Hi J,
To piggy back on Bewitched’s answer, as one of the commenters she is alluding to … what she says is spot on about what I’ve been trying to do in my comments.
I know it could feel like there has been a bit of a pile-on of groupthink in response to your posts. But every one of us is coming at it from having lived the experience of at least one LE. That means we’ve been where you are now where all feels joyful and new, then been through the darker addictive bits, and to different extents are still stuck there or know how long and how much pain and diligence it took to climb some or all of the way out.
Everyone who has commented on your posts is coming from a good place of trying to help you spare yourself some of that. You may still be at a point where that’s open to you.
The desperation phase lasted a solid 6-9 months for me, and that’s if I’m charitable to myself about what I don’t count.
J, you are right, it’s time to focus your attention on your wife. Good call. I’m curious, why did you change office space?
It wasn’t a choice (obviously I wouldn’t move away from LO voluntarily!), our supervisor likes to switch things up every so often.
J, I think we need to talk about leaking limerent symptoms. It’s possible that you and your LO were separated intentionally. Let me explain.
Us limerents think that we are playing it cool and other people don’t know what we’re thinking. Unfortunately, we aren’t as good at hiding our feelings as we think. We leak symptoms. I suspect that someone noticed something in your behavior and you were separated from your LO intentionally. I could be wrong.
Don’t feel bad, we all do it. I thought that my limerence was my problem and that I could handle it without affecting anyone else. Boy was I wrong. My SO asked me directly what was going on between me and my LO because I was leaking my limerence. Also, my LO developed feelings for me which I suspect happened because of my leaking limerence. I hate that my silly problem affected other people, but it did.
Of course, I don’t know if you were moved because of your limerence. It might be something worth considering. I don’t want you to put too much thought into this because you can ruminate on it and that doesn’t help anyone, but I do want you to increase your awareness.
@J
your gods must be strong. yesterday, you asked “what could be so bad about that?” and today you have your answer. this — when the situation moves beyond your control, but you are still controlled by it, and cannot just force yourself to care less, is why it is so bad, in a nutshell.
ask yourself if you want to keep feeling the way you do, today. because i can guarantee, if you let yourself get further involved with lo, you will. and it will get even harder to feel good, or like yourself again.
if you enjoy a good, soul-crushing, transformative, dark period, definitely do it. but, if you don’t feel like going thru that, best nip this in the bud and be thankful you are separated, for whatever reason the separation occurred.
“If you enjoy a good, soul-crushing, transformative, dark period, definitely do it.”
Well stated @CSC,
The worst of my dark period lasted almost 9 months. I’m still not fully recovered, but at least it’s not sucking the life out of me now..
Becoming a Poet
Susan Browne
I was five,
lying facedown on my bed
when someone stabbed me in the back,
all the way through to my heart.
I screamed & my parents came running,
my father carrying me into the living room.
We sat in the chair with the high sides
like wings. I kneeled on his lap,
my arms around his neck.
My mother sat across from us,
saying, honey, it was just a bad dream.
I looked over my father’s shoulder
at the dark ocean of air,
at the colorful, iridescent fish.
I tried to explain what I saw.
It’s your imagination, said my father.
The fish swam like brilliant magicians
toward the window. Then they were gone.
My parents didn’t know death like I did.
Or the fish, their strange beauty
my secret.
*****
Despite the ability to spell “Shakespeare” backward and forward, clumsily or fluently, spelling-bee champions from the under-civilized world cannot comprehend and appreciate beauty and power of Egyptian hieroglyphs, or Mesopotamian Cuneiforms, or Chinese characters, or mystical birds’ emoji chirping… — a picture speaks a thousand words!
Fear of
Lauren Camp
Google says God
then says holes
long words
heights
being alone
fear as fear of dark figures
dark spaces
dark forests
dark hallways
dark deep water
nightmares
fear of night time
night sky
night fear of not night
and dark is
weak against
dark is not evil
dark iron sword
dark inner thighs
dark is not black
dark is useless
fear of darkness
dark isn’t a word
dark isn’t the same
does not exist
*
Tonight I sat alone on a wooden bench,
thinking small facts. I had been there since
the sun first stressed to pink strips across the
sky. I believe we suffer between the void and
compulsion. I believe we tribal extraordinary
lives. The sun turned to vibrations and faster
ancestors. The mind was clearing.
*
This summer I alongside I
saw desire for its lessening face. I could give over to it,
let that vision be large as creation.
*********
Germinated with her nature’s 🔥, a 🐦🔥 rarely sees darkness or shadows of fear…. Injured❓ Then sit still, burn silently, and mythologically rise again and again 🪽
oh, @snow
some choice selections here, today. i love the contrast between these two, and the commonality.
just wonderful, wonderful x
hope you’re having a peaceful day, and feeling better than you were.
Thank you, CSC.
My lumber continues getting stronger with increased PT sessions and home stretching; however, I need to feel more powerful before I can soar over the Continent in the April’s green shower and rosy sunlight 🌦️ ….
Trifles 🫂,
As long as you haven’t, behind our 👀 ghostly 👀 , rolled a 🇷🇺 diplomat under and over your 🇫🇷 bedsheets, and made such a true limerence story a contributing piece to win the Nobel Literature prize, you’re quite🛡️from the splashy 🪒 cream made by One and Only — 🦄 pharmaceutical brand in the entire world….
As you’re getting closer to visit 🧙 🧹 🧙♂️ in London, 👁️ out for Hogwarts’ 🆕 field 🌾— a “rosy-grown tomato” 🍅 is somehow entwined 🔀 with a “moldy potato” 🥔, who is either sprouting 🌱🌱 or just can’t help throw himself at this 🍅’s stems 🍒, after gazing at the Narcissus’🤴 pond —🪞…. Ah, all softs of strange lives grow in a wild, magical land 🏜️ …. 🤔
Hope you relax and enjoy your 🇫🇷 🧁🧁 and perhaps some 🇩🇪 mulled wine over the weekend… when I have to disciplinarily, gently stretch and 🧊 massage 🐦🔥’s tiny, twisted lumbar (much better)…. 😏
🤫
Bluest
Lauren Camp
All those years seeking resplendence,
how deceived my longing has been.
Memories muscled as otters.
Where the center is
always discernible, I am reminded
courage is billions of years earlier than we are—
and loss is held like a rudder.
Little deer: imagine
there is a space
to forgive ourselves. Imagine
the slow intimate unknitting of Earth, the sky
in its steam and pleasure.
How will I greet you when I am back,
the spectrum not yet diminished in me?
*****
— a lasting delusional limerent 💜….
The Weather-Cock Points South
Amy Lowell
1874 –1925
I put your leaves aside,
One by one:
The stiff, broad outer leaves;
The smaller ones,
Pleasant to touch, veined with purple;
The glazed inner leaves.
One by one
I parted you from your leaves,
Until you stood up like a white flower
Swaying slightly in the evening wind.
White flower,
Flower of wax, of jade, of unstreaked agate;
Flower with surfaces of ice,
With shadows faintly crimson.
Where in all the garden is there such a flower?
The stars crowd through the lilac leaves
To look at you.
The low moon brightens you with silver.
The bud is more than the calyx.
There is nothing to equal a white bud,
Of no colour, and of all,
Burnished by moonlight,
Thrust upon by a softly-swinging wind.
******
Regardless lesbians or feminists or traditional females, we celebrate International Women’s Day! — 🐦🔥
Lines Written in Early Spring
William Wordsworth
1770 –1850
I heard a thousand blended notes,
While in a grove I sate reclined,
In that sweet mood when pleasant thoughts
Bring sad thoughts to the mind.
To her fair works did nature link
The human soul that through me ran;
And much it grieved my heart to think
What man has made of man.
Through primrose tufts, in that sweet bower,
The periwinkle trailed its wreaths;
And ’tis my faith that every flower
Enjoys the air it breathes.
The birds around me hopped and played:
Their thoughts I cannot measure,
But the least motion which they made,
It seemed a thrill of pleasure.
The budding twigs spread out their fan,
To catch the breezy air;
And I must think, do all I can,
That there was pleasure there.
If this belief from heaven be sent,
If such be Nature’s holy plan,
Have I not reason to lament
What man has made of man?
******
But what LwL have made of Limer men? —
🍧 – 🎩 🌽 – 🚜 🔋- 🤢🥔 – 🏵️🌱🍅 – 🫚🍵 – 📣🧊 – 👩🌾🍸🍃 🍹- 🇩🇪🍷- 🧔🥃 – 👩🍳🍌 🍓🫐 🥤 – 😿 – 💝🧙♀️ – 💘👴- 😈🧑🏭 – 😑 👨🏼💼 – ❄️ 🐦🔥 – 👽 – 🐉
Lol that emoji story gave me a very good smile! (still some I need to figure out, but got most of it – I may try to add eventually!)
This line in the Wordsworth poem was intriguing:
“While in a grove I sate reclined”
‘Sate’ is presumably a dated spelling of ‘sat’. But another meaning of ‘sate’ is to ‘satisfy’ (especially hunger or thirst). I originally read ‘sate reclined’ as meaning ‘to satisfy the need to be in a relaxed (near horizontal) position by staying in it as long as needed’!
Yes, please add more that the emojis to the list. I knew I had missed some, ex: 🧌 🧚♀️ 💃 ….
Upon the first reading, I instinctually thought “sate” meant “sit” by the context. I can’t be “satisfied” (just looked it up), because the speaker is lamenting at humanity’s failures — too much T/rules, too little “N” like birds and flowers — the central theme of early Romanticism poets.
🪳🪳 🍫 🍪
The Welder!
https://livingwithlimerence.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/dreamstime_xs_19614992.jpg
That is Him — originally Bewitched’s favorite baby! He was barred thus roaming around L’Amoor in LaR’s farm land….
Trifles: guide your cupcakes!
Adam: Hurry to Save falling blondie and brunette angels…. 👼 😇
Gosh, what have we done to him? He looks completely drugged. Too much giggle tea.
Mila,
Today is International Women’s Day, what shall we do with the Welder? Throw him to the icy pool of the Inn?
Where is our Barmen? Without him, only fresh sliced giggle tea 🫖 is available….
The farmland is not well attended — seeded and weeded, thus exotic vegetations are moulding, spreading and entwining… 🙄
I’m never far away!
There’s lots to do on the land at this time of the year, keeping me busy. But I have said many times, Amoor’s is like a room of requirement. It appears as needed. What’s anyone drinking? 🥂🍻🍹
I have also been crying in a corner since learning that Trifles has discovered the younger and more attractive model otherwise known as my stablehand. And I thought I’d kept his presence quiet! And when did the welder have a facelift into that specimen that L.E. has sent us the pic of? Surely time locked in a barn can’t have had that effect on him?
LaR 🧊,
Mila has discovered that the giggle tea with the Aphrodite spice has made the welder in the locked barn look like that!
Sorry about your ❤️🩹, please don’t be too mind/sad about trifles who got sugar high with a bag of 🇫🇷 🧁 that is supposed to be the best in the world, according to the “moulded potato”. After a full digestion, she’d come back to serve the Inn particularly with her One and Only 🦄 smoothies!
We need to call back Adam, SL, trifles who are busy with their wardrobe shopping….
Where is the Lawyer? Opps, he’s slipped away to one of our pools — the refreshed Welder and his falling angels are all there
— https://youtu.be/rf2jwgSXJVM?si=2dH2KOk0JrqR_Y__
Thanks for the reassurance Mila.
I’ve asked the stablehand what he thinks he’s playing at turning up to work dressed like that. He’s now been sent off to muck out the stables and the welder’s portaloo.
Snow sorry – this was meant to be addressed to you as well as Mila!
Though I will need to trawl posts in more detail to know what on earth the 🥔 and 🧁are calling back to. I’m sure Trifles knows what she’s doing anyway. She will be back soon enough if we do some specials on Mojitos or Cuba Libres.
Actually, I’ve had a thought. Maybe we need to think up a cocktail recipe for the “🏵🌱🍅”?
LaR🧊
No worries! In LwL’s Hogwarts or cafes, anything is possible, anything Aphrodite, 💘 and limerence related is permitted, anyone appears at different phrases with different names, given by Self or others…
The 🥔 🍅 🧁… have a long seasoned and spiced history that you’ve witnessed… 😉
Taking a break to teach/corrupt young minds now… Later!
Yes, a recipe for 🏵️ 🌱 🍅!
Wow, the house is getting full!
LaR🧊: who is your stablehand that lured our Trifles away? Under or over 40, when a man’s life truly begin (by Jung)? Can you point him out for us?
I’m back on my shift now…
Snow,
Adam sent us a photo of the said stablehand to demonstrate his immaculate taste in clothes. Trifles was rather intrigued by him, to say the least.
At least I have a clue about what to wear when I head up to platform 9 3/4 now, I guess 😃
LaR,
Thank for the reminding Adam’s favorite men’s stores! I like both styles as long as no hair on model’s face.
Yes, dress up with Trifles’ favorite, bring your Mom’s trifles, and wait on platform 9 3/4 for a lady with a box of 🇫🇷 cupcakes….
Mom is all set up with her trifle ingredients. A 👻 man can but hope, eh?
I understood the 🥔🧁bit now…
How’s things with your (hopefully by now) 🪒 cinema-going buddy? Can I pour him something?
LaR,
When you stand at platform 9 3/4, be aware that some 👻 👻 from LwL’s Hogwarts might be around to check out our sweet French Trifles …
I haven’t seen the French movie goer for about a month ever since the 2nd movie, because: 1. My lumbar was “out” on 2/12 and has not been able to sit or stand for long. 2. I could not sense any possible glimmer after two “dates”, his beard looked even more wildly crawling on his face….👎 None of us contacted the other, very cool!
From my limited understanding: when looking at the🪞 , 🥔 sometimes sees a 🥔 in it; and other times a 🍅 — strange as it is, which bothers him to no end — the two fundamentally different crops! Yet 🥔 can’t untangle 🍅 in the Narcissus’ pond, so 🍅 was claimed as a possible, close-to-“soulmate” in his shadow…. Then 🥔 (in)directly, masterfully, and humorously attacks, or explains to, or argues with 🍅 through his admiring 👻 👻 👻 audience, from which 🐦🔥 hopes he’s got a lot of fun!
Snow,
This was the image in question. Adam shared it as an example of his ‘casual’ look.
https://pin.it/hMv2W4zrn
To me, the easier solution would be to untangle the roots of 🥔 and 🍅. But they appear to be knotty roots indeed, that refuse to be untangled. Instead, members of the audience are being used (wittingly or unwittingly), rather like in ventriloquism. It does seem odd to continue it in this way, dressed up as ‘humour’. Maybe the reasons for that make more sense to you than it can to the audience members like me.
LaR,
I did see the taste of Adam and Trifles, but still not sure which guy is in purple waistcoat.
Although beard or tattooed, any of them look much more appealing than our 🧑🏭 who simply prefers nothing on his flesh except falling angels…. *sigh*, it’s a logical result of L.E’s uncontrollable limerence ages ago. As long as the Welder and the Lawyer are roaming around in LwL, the die-hard romantics L.E. cannot help but reminisce their LO “mothers”, who left the two “sons” to his sole custody….
I hope you keep him well locked in the shed unless some LwL ladies requests him with an impeccable outfit of Adam’s choice.
LaR ,
„To me, the easier solution would be to untangle the roots of 🥔 and 🍅. But they appear to be knotty roots indeed, that refuse to be untangled. Instead, members of the audience are being used (wittingly or unwittingly), rather like in ventriloquism. It does seem odd to continue it in this way, dressed up as ‘humour’. Maybe the reasons for that make more sense to you than it can to the audience members like me.“
I‘ve reached the point where I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.🙈but no need to explain, I will continue to watch this conversation in wonder!
LaR,
🍅 and 🥔 share one thing in common in your mother tongue “…O…O…O…” I grew up with pictograms, so emojis are much more preferable to express…
Despite the similar colors in roots, look at their contrast appearance! Which one looks more delightful and appetizing (before being peeled and French fried)❓
Due to their knotty roots, they are usually grow far apart in any farm, isn’t it? But in LwL, any vegetation is allowed to roam around and voice out its vegetational frustration, delight, or sense of humor, right?
As a mythological bird 🐦🔥, I might have a tiny bit easier time to decode some linguistic expressions of ancient vegetations… especially when they are “mouldy”….
I’m still with you LaR, even if you lost Mila.
Although if the 🥔 and the 🍅 find it humorous, isn’t that all that matters?
You say 🥔, I say 🍠
Mila,
“Right now, I possess all the sexual magnetism of a mouldy potato! 🙄😜🤣”. Doesn’t it sound cutely 🧲 ?
Trifles:
Do you French fry 🥔 or🍠?
❄️, 🇫🇷🍟 of course, but for us it’s just 🍟. 😜
Trifles,
We limerents have expanded your xLO’s agriculture expertise — a “Mouldy” 🥔 rents about a “rosy-grown” tomato 🍅 and French 🧁 ; then 🍅 shouts the strange entanglement with 🥔 ; then a 🌽 explains the knotty roots’ tendency and goes to invent a cocktail made of potent 🌾 +🥔 + 🍅 + 🌹
Can we humans, mammals, birds chat with each other without the agricultural delight 🤩 ❓
LaR,
“And when did the welder have a facelift into that specimen that L.E. has sent us the pic of? Surely time locked in a barn can’t have had that effect on him?”
You are correct. The Welder looks like Fabio. I intended to pic to depict his effect on the ladies.
“He’s LE’s 1st son after his limerence for LO #2, in addition to the Lawyer, the 2nd one from LO#4. Like or dislike it, LwLers can’t get rid of them to break LE’s heart, so we’ve found ways to put up with their existence.”
As scary as that idea is, I like it!
That linked picture is The Lawyer. They’re “Twin Sons of Different Mothers.”
Take it away…fan fiction being what it is. None of you can kill them off. But, there’s a lot of artistic leeway.
LE,
The midwife of your twins is ❄️, you’ve got to credit correctly!
As you are “proud” of your irresistible “twin” boys from two different LO mothers, I wonder how far apart or close the lim- 🐉’s earthly son, —“mouldy” 🥔 , is from Lim-🐦🔥‘s earthling daughter — “rosy-grown” 🍅 ⁉️ Are their knotty, earthen colored roots possibly unidentical “twins”❓
LaR: are you ploughing GMO seeds in LwL farm❓
Whatever seeds I’ve ploughing on the LwL farm at the moment, judging by the behaviour going on, then they are not the type we’d need the authorities to know about. Maybe I’ll give some to Trifles for her trip to Primrose Hill.
Trifles – yes I agree, if 🥔and 🍅are both happy with growing on distant corners of the farm with their roots still somehow entangled underground, then that should be all that matters. I just wasn’t sure that was the case for both, but your judgement of it may be better than mine. I don’t try to make it my business normally, but then you and then I were kind of ‘called in’ to the most recent bit of the conversation. I just thought 🍅 might have been trying to keep the roots clearer these days.
❄ – you are correct – with the farm structured as it is, as long as both crops continue to grow anywhere within its boundaries, gnarly roots remain a possibility.
I bet you never knew how much mileage (‘acreage’) we’d get when you first told us your XLO’s passion for agriculture 😅
LaR,
I hope that you have GMOed some “steel” seeds into juicy 🍅’s root, so it becomes unbreakable and unblemished while being tossed high and low…
Look at cheeky 🥔! It can be thrown anywhere anytime, unbroken and adoptive, ready to quietly root deep or hibernate long until mould spreads…
Trifles: always guard your 🇫🇷 🧁 carefully, especially when waiting for LaR 🚜 🌽 🧊 on the platform 9 3/4, so your 🇫🇷 🧁would not be unnoticeably snatched to make that One🦄 Only 🪒 cream!
But 🏵🌱🍅, why would 🥔 be hiding in the 🌽 looking for 🍧? 🥔 and 🍧 are not a natural limerent match. Or do you think it purely about trying to steal 🍧’s 🇫🇷🧁? Surely we are not about to have another round of the mistaken 🧔 and 👖 which would require 🥮 as ammunition?
@LaR @ 🏵️ 🌱🍅
it has taken all my remaining strength and mental skill to initiate both Capital Letters and emoji in order to reply. but i have persevered.
i am utterly drained from my typographic effort, and thus, lack the cougar-vigor necessary to chase any welders, nor to undertake any possible shoo-ing of multiple fallen angels from his physique.
CSC,
Well, I for one very much appreciate your typographic commitment.
Please rest assured that the Welder and the Lawyer don’t look like leaving town anytime soon (confirmed by their father L.E. today). When you recover some strength, you can see what you reckon to them both.
Just keep on inhalin’ and exhalin’ for now.
LaR🚜 ,
Spot on, spot on…. 🌽 🌱🚜
Whatever brand, 🧁 is unnatural for 🍅 (knocking 🍅 ‘s 🦷 🦷 off) but 🍧 and other farm earthlings are unaware that 🇫🇷 🧁 can be used as ammunition like the splashy 🪒 cream was in the LwL’s feud — newer 👻 👻 are obviously oblivious of it.
So I suggest that 🍧 or 🥔 admirers be mindful, especially while visiting Hogwarts where a powerful wizard can masterfully converses in Shakespearian tongue. 🥔 would naturally avoid another uncouth farmland 🚅 🔫 🚄 by directly throwing 🥮 at 🏵️🌱🍅…
The only amusing 🎯 of 🥔, whoever it verbally charms/flirts with(not looking for particular ones), seems to have been only 🐦🔥, some of its unwanted nature were hated and unexpectedly repressed inside 🥔, according to its soliloquy.
Yet 🐦🔥, as well as 🥔, can survive like “cockroach” on earth, what one is going to do about it? — alluding her as 🍅! (not a rotten one at least… 😂)
It’s just my intuitive speculation 🤭, could be the way off the edge of your 🌾 land.
CSC,
Thank you for calling me 🏵️🌱🍅— my earthling reincarnation birthed in your charmed chat with 🤢🥔 …
In order to hang around/in L’Amoor in LwL, you’ll need to master those typographic, which might be exhausting initially but may eventually floor you with 😂 😂 😂 — a very powerful healing therapy — LO would shrink in size and appearance in those cougher 😹😹😹….
It matters little what has been said, but imaginations, imaginations with infinitely expanding and pictorial mind/spirit…. It took 8 years for L.E. to admit and officially acknowledge his secret, wanton sons out of his LE 2&4.
As LaR says, try to inhale and exhale deeply and slowly… time slows down and even freezes for millenniums in LwL.
This welder needs some clothes and something to weld, I‘d say.
Also, how the stablehand got to think it‘s appropriate to be dressed in lilac waistcoats for his work is beyond me.
LaR should stop crying over spilled trifles and show his employees a firm hand.
When has the Welder intended to weld anything ever since he lost Bewitched’s limerent fever? Without LaR’s titanium key, he’d have broken into the Inn a long while ago….
Then, while LaR 🧊 lost his T 🧠 and 😭 😭 over the spilled trifles, the deprived, grieving CSC stole his key and unlocked the Welder without any clothes… — delighting some sore limerents’ 👀 …
Adam: could you fetch some decent outfit for ONE and Only 🦄 Welder🧑🏭?
Did someone say “mojito”?
And you’ve all got me wrong! I wasn’t pining for the baby in the lilac waistcoat but the Man in the leather suspenders..! Adam, those are seriously going to be a hit!!
And they are perfect workwear for a stablehand/groomsman, so get off his case 😉
I like the waistcoat, but why a leather belt AND leather suspenders? Is he that afraid his trousers might slip down? It’s all a bit too much for my taste. I’d say, either waistcoat and belt, or leather suspenders over a normal white Tshirt.
But I’d prefer this guy over the stoned welder too.
If there is any fear of anything falling down, I can get hold of another one of those titanium locks easily enough.
Oh my goodness, the welder is on the loose and has everybody all a-flutter again, lol
(Think he’d like my flutter sleeves?)
@ rosy grown tomato
Haha thank you for making me laugh. Indeed much deprived, depraved, grieving…whoever, whatever, this welder is, I am happy to hear he has been liberated. (At least, it sounds like a good thing?…. as I understand it he’s usually kept locked in a shed somewhere on the premises.)
Adam,
I‘m sure you look dashing in waistcoat or suspenders, but I still root for those parachute pants and the dance routine you promised.
Somehow Marcia deserted us, so we won’t get our slogan t-shirts, I’m afraid..
CSC,
It isn’t fair to keep you in the dark any longer. So, a brief history of the Welder. There are rumours that:
1. He is L. Emeritus’ son, along with The Lawyer
2. He came into LwL town / The Amoors Inn when fleeing a zombie apocalypse
3. He has enjoyed relations with at least two ladies of LwL, who know full well who they are
4. He burned down a wall of my bar while covering my weekend off
5. Snow asked me to sort out the lock on his pants out of continued concerns over his behaviour
Does he sound like someone you want to know better? The agreement here was that I would only give the lock combination if it was explicitly requested by an LwL lady. Nobody has asked for it yet.
I urge caution.
CSC,
“@ rosy grown tomato”
If you want to address me with the new given nickname, you need to write it out in emoji 🏵️🌱🍅; otherwise, I’ll ignore you next time! LaR wants to make a new cocktail named after it — a choice of the “mouldy potato”.
“this welder is, I am happy to hear he has been liberated. (At least, it sounds like a good thing?…. as I understand it he’s usually kept locked in a shed somewhere on the premises.)”
He’s LE’s 1st son after his limerence for LO #2, in addition to the Lawyer, the 2nd one from LO#4. Like or dislike it, LwLers can’t get rid of them to break LE’s heart, so we’ve found ways to put up with their existence.
The Welder has been locked before last Christmas, but a cougar-spirited limerent somehow got him free. With the shed-stored soap 🧼, cologne, and 🦄 🪒 cream, we saw at least 4 angels falling at his feet!
The might Adam, the Inn’s gatekeeper, has gone to painstaking wardrobe shopping. So the uninhibited Welder got into the inner pool of L’Amoor and his father caught him stoned with 4 falling angels without an outfit
He’s probably back to the shed now since LaR presumed his duty. If you want to mingle with him privately, you have to LaR🔐 for the lock code, and take any/all consequences….
I’ll keep this simple:
The 🏵🌱🍅 cocktail:
– Take an incredibly large measure of Scotch whiskey
-Add 1 bottle of tomato juice
-Garnish with rose petals
-if you wish to make it very toxic, add strong 🇷🇺 vodka 🥔
In Britain, with a nod to our history, we know this drink as a “Bloody Mary Queen of Scots”
LaR🧊,
Can you add some ingredients in “🏵️🌱🍅 that could melt mouldy skin of 🥔🥔 from without? they can’t take hard drinks, so just soak them in a bucket of 🏵️🌱🍅!
“I wasn’t pining for the baby in the lilac waistcoat but the Man in the leather suspenders….”
Trifles (or anyone): can you link which attire you’re talking about? (Open up that picture and copy the link here). There are the way too many for me to locate which one you refer to!
I want/need to have an idea of LaR stablehand, who is working at L’Amoor premises.
I’m surprised to see this post still active. I mentioned earlier that I am on the autism+ADHD spectrum, and I have mentioned in posts, going years back, that I believe that most, if not all, of my LO’s were also on the spectrum. Today I’m ruminating really bad – let me explain.
But first some background information for context: I work a graveyard (overnight) shift at my job. Sometimes (becoming often) we are allowed to volunteer for extra hours on Saturdays; occasionally (becoming more often) this overtime is mandatory, except half of the time half of the department is a no-show anyway (so it’s voluntarily mandatory I guess – ha). The day before, we all discussed exactly how and when our mandatory six-hour shifts might actually play out; some of us simply could not come in, or they had plans for later in the day. I just planned to come in at my regular time (10:30 PM, like I always do, so I can catch Swing Shift before they leave).
Anyway, I got to work last night and I was apparently the only person (I felt that I was) in the entire plant. Being alone in a deserted factory with various machinery kicking on and off, and a random cacophony of alarms going off everywhere all the time can be kind of unsettling. I got started on the highest priority jobs, completing every arduous step of the process by myself, and making only slow progress. About 4:30 AM, the automatic door to my workspace opens, and it is . . . LO. I knew it was a possibility she could come in a little bit early, but not way before everyone else. I must also mention that I am only aware of one other Saturday she has ever came in, even when it was supposed to be mandatory, and that would have been long after I had left for the day. So, this was a bit unusual.
After I explained what I was doing, she says “OK, I’ll keep taping, and you keep running.” This, incidentally, was the first time we had ever actually worked together; we have worked in close proximity before, but not on the same things. This is where it becomes obvious to an operator how totally inefficient it is to try and do every part of this process with no help. We both kept to ourselves and knocked out some work. At one point I broke silence and asked her “So, is this about the earliest you have ever come in?” She just smiled and nodded as she was looking down at her work.
Eventually, other people from Day Shift began arriving and she continued taping panels in another room. She came to my area one more time before I left and I showed her where I had left of with the machines. I thanked her for coming in early and helping me, but she had no response – she almost never does. I then slipped out unnoticed as she was having a conversation with a guy from the Weekend Day Shift.
I have noticed for a long time that she can be very animate and articulate when she wants to be, and she definitely hears and processes what I say to her, but she never has anything to add! It makes me nervous talking to her. This is why I believe she may be on the autism spectrum as well. What do you think?
Possibly, and/or introverted. I know if I have nothing to add to a subject, I stay quiet. It’s better than saying nonsense. 🙂
Perhaps she’s not signaling anything and sees you as simply a Co-Worker. It has been repeated to me throughout the forum many times, that if the other person has interest, then they will be the one reaching out for contact with you.
LaR,
When you stand at platform 9 3/4, be aware that some 👻 👻 from LwL’s Hogwarts might be around to check out our sweet French Trifles …
I haven’t seen the French movie goer for about a month ever since the 2nd movie, because: 1. My lumbar was “out” on 2/12 and has not been able to sit or stand for long. 2. I could not sense any possible glimmer after two “dates”, his beard looked even more wildly crawling on his face….👎 None of us contacted the other, very cool!
From my limited understanding: when looking at the🪞 , 🥔 sometimes sees a 🥔 in it; and other times a 🍅 — strange as it is, which bothers him to no end — the two fundamentally different crops! Yet 🥔 can’t untangle 🍅 in the Narcissus’ pond, so 🍅 was claimed as a possible, close-to-“soulmate” in his shadow…. Then 🥔 (in)directly, masterfully, and humorously attacks, or explains to, or argues with 🍅 through his admiring 👻 👻 👻 audience, from which 🐦🔥 hopes he’s got a lot of fun!
I make one drunk post on the weekend and ya’ll take it and run with it lol
Mila
I wear a belt all the time no matter if I functionally need it or not. A belt, for me, is a fashion statement in of itself. Same goes for my incoming leather suspenders. I just won’t look as good as him in them.
Yeah Marcia abandoned me. 🙁 Don’t leave me too Miss Lovisa!
LaR
You better reign in your beefcake ranch hands. These ladies are chomping at the bit lol
And what’s with the lack of cheesecake my friend? And I don’t mean the dessert. Or I maybe I do. Or maybe I just need to post a Bettie Page picture. Or maybe I shouldn’t post intoxicated.
One example of Jung’s synchronicity —
🤢🥔: — “She exhibited the strangest envy for Frenchwomen. She seemed to believe (delusionally, I’m sure) that Frenchwomen do nothing but eat cupcakes and….”
🇫🇷🍧: — “I read your competition entry while on my way home with some cupcakes in my shopping bag – I kid you not! 😯 “
🏵️🌱🍅: — 😳😶… ⛓️💥💦 (🔇😂😂😂😂 … 4️⃣☀️🔕)
🫂 Adam 🧔 🥃 ,
Who likes cheesecake here? Your Marcia dives for brownies (☹️ no emoji for it). With her absence, I don’t have any to throw around… 😜
Do we still have that drinking date? My lumbar really needs a supportive tall stool at LaR’s bar!
Snow
“Cheesecake” in the US is slang for pin-up or glamour model, like the aforementioned, late and great Bettie Page. The term was coined in the 1940/50’s as a way to disguise what it really was. As in that day and age pin-up could be both clothed and nude photos that were distributed via mail and/or “under the table” in certain stores. Irving Klaw was the photographer and distributor that made Bettie Page famous in the 50’s. She passed on December 11, 2008 of either a heart attack or pneumonia. One of the most beautiful women ever, in my opinion. She was very photogenic and had a beautiful smile.
Adam,
My father had a bunch of Mens Magazines from the 50s in the basement. He had the entire set of Playboys from 1957 – 1960. He also had a bunch of magazines from the era that didn’t survive the 50s. There were original pictures of Betty Page in some of them. I knew where they were.
I was in the Navy. When my father died, I came home. The magazines were gone. I couldn’t come out and directly ask my grandmother where all the girlie magazines had disappeared to. So, I said I’d head to the basement and see what was laying around since I’d have to do something with it. I said that I’d start in the cabinet where the magazines were hidden.
My grandmother said that she’d found a whole stack of girlie magazines in a paper bag. I feigned innocence and asked where. Somehow, grandma had found them. I asked what she did with them.
She gave them to a handyman that was doing some work for her. At least, somebody got them as opposed to going in the trash. It was really hard to contain myself.
I agree with your opinion of Betty Page. The woman was gorgeous. The Navy should name a ship after her. A Betty Page class brunette could even trump a redhead for me.
Imagine your LO wear these: —
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gp06n0d8eo
@Snow That’s for 20something celebrities. That wouldn’t fly at my church! lol
@SL
I was wondering who dares to put them on in normality — I would pass out if given such a dress to try in public, even for a wager! 😵💫
For 👽 in the space❓ 🙈
What’s your emoji?
L.E.
I was there for the resurgence in her popularity in the 90’s. Mostly due to Rocketeer as the Betty in the comics (and the movie it spawned) was modeled after Bettie Page.
I have many Bettie comics as well as art, shirts, posters, etc. She’s probably the only woman I have ever had more pictures of than my wife. Jim Silke (who recently passed himself) and Oliva are easily my two favorite artists to render her. Though Dave Stevens is really good too.
Those magazines would have been an amazing time capsule to experience. Dave Silke wrote a very good biography about her called Bettie Page Queen of Hearts that has a lot of her original old photos in it. It’s amazing how photogenic that woman was. And the smile that could melt hearts at the same time as raising the blood pressure. Truly, God took his time with her.
Adam 🧔,
Thank you for the culture enlightenment! I had no idea about the slang of “cheesecake” which I learned how to make from scratch from my 🇫🇷 girlfriend.
I think our barman prefers 🇬🇧 🇫🇷 🐄 🍨 , 🥫, 🌹 🥃, 🍹…. If he’s not chomped by LwL ladies, L’Amoor would go bankruptcy!
Please keep an eye on LE’s wanton sons— 👩🏭 and 🧑💼!
@coffeehouse
I suggest that in our “name” area, put also to whom your post intends to address: a specific a person, a group (SOs, L’Amoor, or all). By doing this, we could provide needed, targeted help, avoid unintentionally make some grieving hearts feeling worse, or simply jump into some head-cooling “pools”…
Of course, all sub-blogs and conversations are still open, topic if one is just curious to wander in to listen silently, add thoughts, give consolation, or blow out soulful emotions after a cocktail, mulled wine, whisky, or “throw” 🧁, 🍅, 🥔, 🌽, 🍨 or 🍮 (no stones or jewels) around humorously…
Some people need straight-forward LE information, some sympathy or empathy, some “tear pusher”, some “laughter stimulus”, some monologue therapy, and some repeated ventilation… — All is for benefits of hopefully recovering from our respective, long-or-short LEs or from SO’s shared unspeakable sufferings. By giving a bit more information in “Name” field, we can produce more purposeful, efficient posts to readers in various needs.
Just a thought after imho 💃 message to Libra….
First time poster here. I work with my LO. We work together a couple of days a week. We are friends, whatever that means. There has definitely been some flirtatious behavior from both of us. Normally, he drives me to my car at the end of the day (I park far away). We spend time in the car, talking about our days, or weeks, or whatever funny thing we think of. It feels very special to me. Unfortunately we are both married. I am not very happy, he is happier. He gives off all the body language signs of being attracted to me. He looks so deeply into my eyes, and for the longest time. I think that is what made me first fall for him. When I go on vacation, he gets really sad and says that work feels “quiet and empty” without me. So…even though I know I shouldn’t, I fell into this, and because he does reciprocate to some degree, he has certainly reeled me in. Well now, things have changed. We went on a work trip. I drank too much. I was jealous because he was talking to a beautiful woman and I walked off from the group. He chased me down and said why are you leaving us? What’s wrong? And I said I can’t say, please understand. And he said well how can we have a relationship if we don’t talk? So, you see how he is with me? Well later that night after too much alcohol I told him, without telling him, that I felt like I was in love with him. He told me he loves me, he cares about me, go to bed. So I did. Well the next day I got a text from him in the afternoon. People were talking about us behaving “like a couple”. He said we have to make sure they don’t get the wrong idea. I said of course. Later that night he told me he loves me again, but all he wants is friendship. Ok, makes perfect sense. But he got kind of angry about the whole thing, and when I tried to explain he said don’t say anything, you just drank too much. Well now we are back at work, and he doesn’t give me rides anymore because he said he has to be careful (Which he does, our boss said something to him). BUT…now I am really grieving. My fantasy has imploded, I don’t get the special time at the end of the day anymore, although if we both have a break he still wants to talk to me. But when I see him grab his bag and leave without me, it feels crushing. Also, we used to hug a lot and now we don’t and I don’t know how much is due to being careful and now much is due to what I said. At any rate, this is where I am. I can’t get away from him and I’m devastated and feel so rejected. I have been trying to get over him for so long, so I suppose this could be the thing that does it. But it’s excruciating.
Hi, HB! Love the name! Hanalei Bay is such a gorgeous spot.
I am so sorry this is happening to you. Sounds to me like there is mutual attraction, but one thing to know is that some people can experience love and affection for others without experiencing limerence. Dr. L calls this the two tribes. Your LO may be in that other tribe. When you disclosed and he started to feel the heat he was able to pull back without the distress that limerence causes and he is able to see the relationship rationally without the obsessive emotions.
I also have a work LO that I disclosed to after 10 months of getting close to her. We are both married and she did not reciprocate my feelings. I do believe she had some level of attraction to me based on her actions but I also believe she in not a limerent like I am and can look at our relationship very rationally as friendship where I just get caught up in obsessive romantic desire for her.
I still work with this woman and over the last 2 years have put in a lot of effort to get my emotions in check. First thing was to admit that the relationship is dead. Sounds harsh but it is honest. My LO did not want something beyond mild friendship and I can’t tolerate just friendship so we had no common emotional interest. Dr L has a great blog on whether you can be friends with an LO. You may want to give it a read. I decided to disengage from LO and have gone very strict LC. I only interact now with LO on a need to basis about necessary work items. It’s sad because we could be closer friends but LO seems indifferent anyways and the moment I pursue friendship I just get caught right back up in obsessive limerent desires to pursue her romantically which just leads to me feeling let down and hurt.
The other thing that has helped is building non limerent friendships with other women. I have become close to another woman I work with without feeling limerent over her. She is much more emotionally compatible with me than my LO and I have a lot of affection for her that is positive.
I hope you can also find ways to take control of your emotions. LC or NC if possible is a very highly recommended method to combat the worst parts of limerence. It has worked for me and there are a number of blog posts here on it. Also read here at LwL all about purposeful living and put a few things into practice. The goal right now is just to stabilize your emotions, not to get rid of limerence outright. That’s just going to take a lot of time.
I really feel for you, it’s so tough but you can pull through! You are already on the right track coming here. Feel free to ask a lot of questions, the community here is very encouraging and I am sure others will chime in soon.
Thank you so much for responding, I really appreciate your words of encouragement. It’s interesting what you said about him maybe having mutual attraction but that lack of obsessive emotions. I hadn’t thought about it like that, but it makes perfect sense. And it actually makes me feel a bit better. Like yeah it’s real, but he can pull back in a way that I can’t (but certainly am trying to!) As you know, when you have to see someone at work, it makes it so much harder to totally cut the cord! I do think you are right about admitting it is dead, and I have been trying to force myself to spend time in that space. I find it really easy to latch onto a little bit of hope and ride it….but that is not going to help me. As hard as all this has been, if it helps me to truly see that the future I want is simply unavailable to me, then maybe that can help me move on. I don’t know what out relationship will look like a few months from now, or what I want it to look like. Right now I agree with you, LC is definitely the way to go. The lack of rides after work helps, although it is really triggering my abandonment wounds. I’m trying to talk myself into a better space with that. Also to remind myself that he got into a bit of a spot and has to protect himself, and I want that for him, too. The boss said he doesn’t want people to think things are happening that are not. Which honestly, kind of offends me in a way! Like why can’t we just be two friends helping each other out? Why is the fact that I am a woman and he is a man mean something must be “happening”? But I digress!! I am also trying to talk to him less at work, because sometimes he talks about the things he does with his wife (he has always done that) and that triggers me, too. So why put myself into that position. So that is where I am at currently. It’s funny because he has been very clear that he wants us to continue the friendship, but I wonder what that means to him. I’m hoping that for me, I can move out of this fog and back into the easy friendship we had without the romantic feelings clouding everything. I don’t know if that is possible and if it’s not, then I just want to maintain the LC. Thanks for listening, so glad I found this website. Also, Hanalei Bay is my happy place so that is what I’m focusing on…peace and happiness.
Hello Hanalei Bay,
You said
“The boss said he doesn’t want people to think things are happening that are not.
Which honestly, kind of offends me in a way! Like why can’t we just be two friends helping each other out?”
I work with a lot of males and I don’t get those comments. However, someone once said that me and LO make a great couple, in front of us both.
Why ? Because we were probably leaking our affection for each other. You think you are playing it cool, but limerence has a habit of leaking and people notice things, like your eyes widening, fidgeting, flushing or whatever.
One guy once mistakenly thought my starry eyes was directed at him, which was awkward and a wake-up call to how I was acting at the height of my limerence ! I was on some kind of ‘high’.
My LO is long distance and so we don’t work in the same office, but if we did, I can imagine the feelings you are having and your sequence of events would have played out very similar for me. It’s a good reflection, so thanks for sharing.
It’s tough for you, for sure, with lots of triggers, but seems you are on the right way, and you are getting good input from lwl community.
Best wishes
IMHO has a great point. My whole office knew Adam had a crush on LO. I got mercilessly teased about it by some co-workers. Like in this instance.
My boss, LO and myself in the same office.
Me: “LO what’s on the agenda for work tomorrow?”
Before she could answer.
Our boss: “She won’t be here tomorrow, she’s going to Mexico to get married.”
Me: “LO you’re not going to get married in Mexico are you?”
LO: “No Adam I am not going to get married in Mexico. Just vacationing.”
Me: “Oh thank God, you almost broke an old man’s heart.”
Our boss: “But she is going to cheat on you.”
Me: “Oh no that will break my heart even worse!”
So yeah again IMHO makes a good point. We may think we are handing it chill. Or people know it is just light hearted interactions. But in the case above I was in real distress about the possibility of LO getting married or ….. that. And there are probably another half dozen examples I could post that prove I had little to no control over my limerence leaking out all over the place.
Hi Hanalei Bay,
A very warm welcome to LwL.
My instinct is to say that, painful as it will feel, he might have done you a favour by distancing a bit. I picked up that you don’t feel happy in your marriage but he is happier. As long as one or both of parties are committed to marriages, there is not going to be any great outcome of limerence. On the other hand there are lots of bad outcomes from getting sucked in further – people on here have described it as being trapped in a dance, rollercoaster or emotional storm. Basically, a prolonged period where the LO occupies your mind all the time. That phase of mine, for a female friend and coworker, lasted 18 months and is still on the tail end now, all while I was in a committed relationship. It leads to uncertainty, turmoil and frustrated feelings that you can’t ‘obtain’ them – agonising at times.
I know it will be a process to get there, but you can work towards trying to see his behaviour as an early exit from that process – a chance to recentre to yourself – before limerence sinks you lower. The potential to get stuck is big. So while his changes to behaviour do hurt, they could also protect.
Lots of distraction of your brain when you feel down is good in the short term.
Good luck and do keep reaching out to us if it helps.
Thank you for the warm welcome! Yes, uncertainty, turmoil, and frustration really hit the nail on the head. I have felt all of those things. I look forward to a time when I can let all this go. I agree with you that the distance from him will help, as painful as it is. And it is very painful indeed. I am really struggling with, how could he seem to like me so much, but when I put what I was feeling into words, he just dropped me like a hot potato? I understand that his feelings are different from mine, not as intense for sure. But for 2 years now he has been drawn to me, too, and it show in things he has said and done. How does he just walk away. Makes me feel like nothing. He made me feel beautiful and desired, although definitely on an intermittent basis, hence the limerence! LOL! I know I should just feel that way about myself anyway, but I just feel so much less attractive and funny and fun now (he thinks I am funny and fun too). So I am trying to build up my self esteem so that I can feel that way about myself. And center myself, like you said, that was a really good point. I also like what you said about his behaviors protecting me…that is a new perspective for me. Thanks again for answering my post, I really appreciate your thoughts.
Hanalei Bay,
(I had to Google Hanelei Bay – I now want to go there!)
I’d just add that the protective behaviours he’s displaying, and what he’s feeling inside, are likely two very different things. He won’t be able to just drop it from his head (unless he’s a dodgy character type like a narcissist which he doesn’t sound like). I know all this will be hurting for you but don’t assume the outward displays from him reflect what he’s feeling (think how much we all shield the world from our true feelings, especially when the stakes are high).
Stay strong and stay with us. There are a wealth of good people, stories and information here.
Hanalei Bay,
Welcome to the forum. The reply from Speed to you is a spot on. His situation speaks volumes of what disclosure can do in work situations.
My LE was way different in nature and more or less devolved into limbo. Limerence in the way it hit me, made me extremely depressed. Sometimes I’m still not sure if I’m completely over her.
I’ve since met another Co-Worker Lady that I’ve developed some feelings for over time. Both her and I are single without SOs. This happened because our connection seemed so genuine and she reciprocated in a way that felt so promising. I don’t feel as limerent this time since there is less uncertainty with this person and it does not feel as crushing and sad. Because of how she’s made me feel, I did disclose some feelings I was having awhile back and I thought I was being gentle in the way I handled it, but it had an opposite effect. It more or less confused her and for a few weeks things were very awkward at work between us. Eventually we talked things over and are better now.. I guess..
However we’re still only friends and it appears that is how she wants to keep things. Sometimes I still wonder about that though because we have some moments of very good connection and often sit in her car before work. Nothing physical ever happens but we at least get to talk away from the confines of work. I really enjoy those chats. While we’re at work there is often moments of intense eye contact throughout the night and sometimes we even have lunch together too.
It is very hard to maintain just a friendship with her though. Sometimes I feel a need to go LC..
Because I know a personal matter going on with her that she doesn’t know I know about. Since it deals with her and another Co-Worker who is being adulterous toward his Wife. It’s something she is probably never going to tell me about but just the fact of how she manages to gloss it all over with me just really grates my nerves sometimes. I’ve actually struggled sometimes to want to even keep talking to her. Yet oddly enough I still manage to find the reasons why she still intrigues me. It’s a situation I never saw coming and it’s very aggravating to say the least..
Guess what I’m trying to say is relationships can get really messy. Especially when there is a marriage involved. I completely understand the pull and attraction of wanting someone else. (I’m divorced for pretty much that reason) Your LO is probably feeling like he’s in a very difficult place, trying to juggle work, marriage and friendship/feelings with you. Being that you’re all up in your feelings now for him, I would advise you to not over-do things and say or do something else you might regret later on. This could have a very negative effect, being a situation at work. In limerence we often end up in an altered state of mind. Being that this feels excruciating to you, please take care of yourself and definitely try to begin going LC.
I wish you luck as you navigate this. Please stay in touch with us here, as you are almost always likely to get the positive support you need.
I will stay in touch. I am so appreciative that there is a community of people who understand and want to help. Thank you!! So you understand how hard it is when you work with someone…because you have to keep seeing them!! I agree that I need to not overdo anything that I may regret later on. I feel grateful that even with my boss noticing that we “acted like a couple” and said something to him about it, she never said a word to me. I know she likes me a lot, so that is helpful. And I am beyond grateful that even with this recent pullback from him, it could be so much worse. SO much worse. I mean he has stated pretty clearly that he wants us to keep my friendship. He could have done the complete opposite…completely withdrawn, gone cold, told the boss I confessed feelings to him. Yikes even the thought of that makes my blood run cold. Anyway, I hope I can get over this. Feels impossible now. I think the worst is that all the hope, excitement, and joy I felt so often with him is gone now. I know I need to get it back in another way but there really isn’t much that gives me those feelings right now. Thanks again!!
Hi @Hanalei Bay
I can so relate to what you are saying. The mixed messages. Getting mistaken for a couple. Having a friend who is…emotionally more….to you. Becoming hooked on the way they fill a gap inside you. I know it. It is part of my story, my pain, as well. I know it can be absolutely awful. Really affirming at the beginning, but as it degrades it is exactly as you say. Excruciating.
I am so sorry you are going through this.
From my own perspective, I will say, I blame myself for *allowing* LO into my life, for allowing myself to be charmed by him, to fall deeper. But, I also feel he could have been more careful with me. (I, personally, am careful not to flirt with people I am not actually interested in. My LO is a charmer, and a flirt. Also, I think, a bit of a user.)
Mixed messages make it so difficult, they are so disorienting. I am just going to ask this, as a matter of course — Do you think you could say to him, “I like you a lot, that is obvious. But, you disregulate me, emotionally, and it’s very painful. I need to limit my contact with you. I mean no offense, but ask that you respect my wishes.”
I wonder…could you, in a quiet moment you have with yourself, *imagine* advocating for yourself, standing up and speaking to him, for that part of you that needs protecting, right now. To draw that protective line. What would that feel like?
Not as a manipulative thing, to draw him back. It could NOT be that. Could you imagine doing this, to protect that part of you that needs you.
This is just a question – one I asked myself. I was able to go “no contact”, you are not — so, your options are different. But I ask you this, because after I felt such grief, I did ask myself this question, and I think it helped me a bit.
I am so sorry for your pain. I understand.
I am going through my own pain right now as others on this forum well know! But, I may be a few weeks ahead of you as my physical withdrawal has passed, and I am now coping with the grief that is in it’s wake. Emotionally, but also in my life, which has become quite a mess….(that I’m working to fix.)
With Care,
CSC
“I like you a lot, that is obvious. But, you disregulate me, emotionally, and it’s very painful. I need to limit my contact with you. I mean no offense, but ask that you respect my wishes.”
That’s a great line @CSC. I’ve copied that and I feel like I’m going to need it for a “certain someone” at some point..
😂
https://images.app.goo.gl/fP2AqoQ2NQfifid1A
Bloom County 1982
Thanks @MJ
It occurred to me the other day (yes, I am in NC right now 3 full weeks!…beginning to come to my senses, again). Still very disoriented. Still have to grieve and go through. But, I’m not feeling utterly crazed anymore.
Even if I never get to say this out loud to LO, I sometimes imagine myself saying it, or something like it…when I get a craving…it’s been helpful, trying to train myself to be my own advocate (instead of my own enabler, which I am VERY good at.)
I’m happy it is helpful! :)It’s the least I can offer after getting so much help from you and others during my very dark days a couple weeks ago!
@Limerent Emeritus
yep….well that’s what would probably happen if I actually tried to say it! haha
LE,
A friend of mine from middle school loved Bloom County and got me hooked on it back in the day.
Thanks for the funny reminder.. 🤣
Hi CSC,
I’m glad you are doing well so soon, despite the pain of NC. Also glad you didn’t throw yourself off even a small garden bridge ( see above, reply).
I also may take a note of your disregulation quote for future use!
Im sure that some (many ?) LOs know exactly the affect they are having on poor emotional, romantic, sensitive types (even if they don’t know the concept of limerence) and they cultivate it.
Wow, your story sounds so much like mine. I found myself nodding my head a lot as I read it. I like what you wrote about talking to him. I think for now I’m going to practice that in my head. I’m not at the point where I would be comfortable saying it out loud..haha. He is definitely pulling back which kind of forces me into LC.. but that’s what I want right now, too. He is too much for me right now. Seeing him and hearing him in the office is hard. I can’t imagine being in a place where I wouldn’t feel these feelings for him…like is it possible to truly see him as just a friend? I guess we will see. I am so anxious to get over him but I guess you can’t force yourself to get over it. Thanks gain for your kind words of support…and I wish you the best on your journey, too. Hopefully your pain will subside soon.
Hi Hanalei bay. Welcome to LwL!
Limerence with colleagues is very hard, as you need to co-exist with them, and this becomes very painful. I have been in this situation and so can understand how you must be feeling. Getting out of LE has been the most difficult thing that I have had to do, but I am sure I will come out as a more learned and wary person.
I see that you have already received some great advice from all the wonderful people here.
I will just add that do not worry. Things will look up and you will feel better in due course of time. We are all here to help. Cheers.
Speaking of colleagues …. I watched a video on youtube some time ago about the top 5 or 6 (can’t remember now) scenarios where affairs start. Co-workers/workplace was #1. With women entering the workplace more and more in the last 50 years or so coupled with the workaholic culture of the US has, it’s no wonder. People sometimes spending more hours at work than they do at home. Working hand in hand with the opposite sex. (Or same if that’s your preference.) You end up building a report with each other, especially if working on the same project.
Which is exactly what happened to me. Got mandated to work with LO on a project for 6 months. In the beginning; no issues. A nice lady to work with that was a good teacher in training me on how to help her. 2-3 months in a completely different thing. Hours and hours of working with her. A very friendly and warm lady turns into a glimmering star that shined everywhere she went.
Yeah no surprise the workplace is #1. I was calling it before I even clicked on the video thumbnail. Now why it turned out that way with her and not any of the other female co-workers I have had in 30 years at other jobs I still don’t know.
Mutual attraction in limerence is excruciating because you know the other person wants you/fights it too. Disclosure can be just as bad as unrequited love/limerence. But it just takes time for it to fade. I hope it fades as quick as it can for you so that the pain goes away.
💙
Thank you, it helps to be able to talk about it with someone.
In life I’m no longer capable of love,
Diane Seuss
of that old feeling of being
in love, such a rusty
feeling, rusty,
functionless
toy. In odd
sequential dreams
I can still love.
Love in the old way.
Here is a sweet lozenge.
Here is some broth,
on whose surface
I have floated
edible flowers.
I can feel the old feeling
where I used to feel it,
in my chest.
In the dream I feel it,
but when I wake
the feeling is gone.
There isn’t a word
for the feeling that replaces it.
Not numbness or emptiness.
It is a nameless feeling.
Racy in its own way.
A racy new toy.
****
Post-limerence❓ “ It’s inexplicable, racy in its own way—racier, maybe, than romance.” —Diane Seuss
Hymn of Nature
Felicia Dorothea Hemans
O! Blest art thou whose steps may rove
Through the green paths of vale and grove
Or, leaving all their charms below,
Climb the wild mountain’s airy brow!
And gaze afar o’er cultur’d plains,
And cities with their stately fanes,
And forests, that beneath thee lie,
And ocean mingling with the sky.
For man can show thee nought so fair,
As Nature’s varied marvels there;
And if thy pure and artless breast
Can feel their grandeur, thou art blest!
For thee the stream in beauty flows,
For thee the gale of summer blows;
And, in deep glen and wood-walk free,
Voices of joy still breathe for thee.
But happier far, if then thy soul
Can soar to Him who made the whole,
If to thine eye the simplest flower
Portray His bounty and His power:
If, in whate’er is bright or grand,
Thy mind can trace His viewless hand,
If Nature’s music bid thee raise
Thy song of gratitude and praise;
If heaven and earth with beauty fraught,
Lead to His throne thy raptured thought;
If there thou lovest His love to read;
Then, wand’rer, thou art blest indeed!
********
☀️ 🌱🌱🌱 ☀️
Beautiful poems!! Thank you!!
Hi Coffeehouse,
I’m shouting out to see if anyone else has experienced major fatigue during the ‘deterioration’ / ‘death of hope’ bits of their LEs, and if so what insight I can draw from you.
I am firmly at that phase now. Whilst there is definite relief to feel freer, I also feel pure exhausted to a level I rarely remember feeling. I’ve experienced depression in the past, so know how that feels for me. This isn’t the same as (though I am not oblivious that it could be a mild case or turn into one). I still feel plenty of hope in other ways – this is more an actual, physical, visceral tiredness, to a level where I can just stumble through at minimal levels of doing what I need to do each day.
I wondered if anyone else had this happen at similar phases of their LE and strategies they used to deal with it. I am following the basic good practices like decent dietary choices, more hours for sleep, distraction with other interests/people, and as much exercise as my energy levels and time permit.
I’m not asking for longer term ideas for getting past the LE (that moment may come, but I have a fair idea on that already). I am just after tips for coping with the fatigue for now. Is it just a case of waiting it out and sleeping lots until this stage has done it’s work with me?? I guess I can’t speed it on its way.
LO’s frequent presence in my working life and how to have a functional relationship after limerence is another area that is getting trickier. I am doing all I can re LC and ‘conscious contact’ (and she is too, it seems). She is no longer on my mind that much when I’m not around her, other than annoyance at myself for how much of my life I let her consume and for how long (anyone please answer this, but 📣@Mila and @Bewitched, does any of this sound familiar?!).
The reasons why I feel the fatigue are not probably as important as the fact I do. But I sense it is an accumulated tiredness debt, prolonged by the kind of ‘faux positive anxiety’ that accompanies an LE. I kept pushing myself harder (not just in the LE, in lots of areas of life, work especially) because the dopamine supply gave me falsely enhanced energy and motivation. Take that high supply level away and I guess it is no surprise the debt now needs to be repaid?
Would welcome any thoughts.
Hi @L-a-R
First, let me say it is a privilege to be able to try and help you, because you certainly helped me…at one of the worst moments in my LE…I honestly do not know what I would have done if it hadn’t been for you, and others, who were so kind and supportive to me, when I was too depleted to do anything for myself.
As for your energy level…I will speak from the perspective of my prior LE’s (1 and 2)…though there were many more, before that (from my teens to and early 30’s) 1 and 2 were the most recent…happening in 2022 and 2023 respectively.
Both of these, I went NC, so they’re slightly different than your situation. But, I remember the death of hope in both.
I think…for me…that phase, just around / after the DOH, was a time of…feeling a bit mindblown. I was also feeling grief of a vague, yet expansive nature. I felt like I had been so overstimulated, for so long, that I had to catch my breath.
If I had to paint the picture, it would be…feeling like a wrung out towel (wrung out, ragged, but not completely ripped apart) and feeling like I one of those scenes where a shipwrecked sailor washes up on a random beach and just lies there breathing deep breaths.
So, my “advice” …ugh. I don’t like using that word. But, what I would imagine, is that maybe paying attention to your body is the best thing. Paying attention to only what you need to do, for your body, to help it feel more tethered. To feel, to allow yourself to know, you are bringing yourself back into safe harbor.
I would imagine that does take time. It certainly does for me. And in a world where everything and everyone are so fixated on “now!’ And “life is short!!” It can feel like you must rush to feel improved. But, you don’t have to. Your body will not be rushed, and it does have its own ways. I think your point about being overstimulated for such a long time — in such a state — says so much. Since your mind can’t tell you to be quiet, your body will.
I find time observing nature to be my best remedy. Sitting outside and feeling the wind on my face. Listening to water, or birds…and if I can’t get nature, or don’t want to be outside, sitting quietly with a non-taxing book or a very entertaining, non-taxing Netflix, works too.
Also, you may need to eat more. Were you eating as much during your LE? You might need some nutrients. I sure do. I ate double lunches over the weekend, and am making sure I get enough protein. I think I was so worked up over my LE that I didn’t eat as much – in meals, or, in portions, when I did have meals.
What do you think? Do these sound like they hit a chord with you? Am I on the right track? I will certainly be interested to hear what the others say, too!
I think you have every reason to be exhausted. Limerence is insane, intense, and like going through a private war.
With care, CSC
CSC,
“First, let me say it is a privilege to be able to try and help you, because you certainly helped me…at one of the worst moments in my LE…”
I am not sure exactly which moment you mean (it doesn’t really matter – that it helped when you needed it is all that matters). I am glad to pick up in other posts scattered about that you feel a couple of weeks stronger/past the worst. I feared when a week ago you were struggling to press the shift key that things had got worse still for you, so am glad to hear you are strengthening. It will be up and down, better days and worse days, as it always is.
“I felt like I had been so overstimulated, for so long, that I had to catch my breath.”
This and this! And it has been kind of, for me anyway, a faux energy/anxiety – not a real level of energy I am capable of sustaining. The tiredness is hard to go through but was inevitable. When ‘in it’ with the LE, I kind of denied that this moment would ever come. Shipwrecked sailor, wrung out towel and safe harbour are all really great metaphors by the way – loved them!
“Since your mind can’t tell you to be quiet, your body will.”
Exactly – you got it. That’s what’s happening and that’s why it’s good to listen to the body. Nature, water, birds (as well as books and Netflix), yes and yes – being outside with nature is always the calmest thing for me. Your reply has hit good spots.
“Also, you may need to eat more. Were you eating as much during your LE?”
Early on my eating took a hit – I lost a lot of my appetite etc – but later on and for a longer spell, I went the other way and comfort ate. I was not your typical limerent spending all their time down the gym or on a new fad diet – LO is not the type who’d be impressed by that anyway. So this part for me now becomes about eating well, not eating more. SO enjoys home cooking and maintains a very good, balanced diet, which affects the food we have in the house and the meals we make – so that’s all helpful for me.
“I think you have every reason to be exhausted. Limerence is insane, intense, and like going through a private war.”
I think above all I just needed validation of this point to increase my ‘permission’ to myself to just let myself feel how I do now, and ride it out until it passes.
Thank you, as ever, for all your thoughts and understanding CSC 😊
Probably a few months back I wrote a post about this exact thing, feeling fatigued at just the day to day of it all. The exhaustion of keeping up LC. Tired of having to coexist with LO at all and just wanting her out of my life. Yes, I have been there. That feeling lasted for a few good months but I feel like I’m pulling out of it now. I am still burdened by all those things but they all come a bit easier now. I have a lot of LC momentum going on and I find myself thinking and enjoying other people apart from LO more and more. My LE might be at its most mild that I’ve experienced. But don’t get me wrong, LO is still LO and I have no delusions of trying to be her friend. I know I have to keep managing it.
I say just hang in there for a bit and keep grinding away. It will get easier.
Speedwagon,
I remain in awe of how long you have ground it out and done the right thing. I am glad to hear you have more momentum now and that your LE is at a milder point – that’s great news.
You’re right about mine being a stage I have to go through. I think we might be talking about different forms of tiredness – mine currently is a literal physical tiredness (want to sleep all the time). Yours seems like tiredness at being stuck in the situation. I wonder if I have more of that to come. LO and I have distanced (what seems like a conscious limbo-breaking choice on both sides) but we are still friendly at work, and I don’t want to push that away entirely unless it fizzles out more naturally. I think it’s a ‘watch this space’. The better news is that I’m managing to deal with the work proximity without getting dragged back into limerent feelings at the moment.
Keep going with what you’re doing! I hope you’re coming to the end.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
I‘m sorry you feel low!
I haven’t experienced a fatigue to that degree, mainly because I transferred two times to new dopamine- fuels.
When the last LE ended without transference, I had a lot of resentment, anger, sadness, but not necessarily fatigue. But I can imagine that either it’s the dopamine-loss- quite literally the death of something that made you feel alive, and maybe the suppressed grief of it, or it’s the unconscious effort of pushing the LE away? Or it’s simply as you say it, the result of having given so much energy. In that case I’d also say, try to find new sources of joy (please not another LE), go through it, maybe journal to let you grieve properly, maybe even get some help with a neutral person you can talk to, and it will pass.
But!
What I would do first is to cross our all other possible reasons for fatigue. Before you declare it as a mental or limerent thing, rule out all physical reasons. I‘d let my blood get checked for iron etc. You don’t want to ignore some real physical problem because you assume it’s the LE.
*cross out
Mila,
Thank you. I have zero plan to replace it with another LE. I don’t think I can put you poor souls on LwL through that! I am armed with all the knowledge about limerence and my triggers now that I didn’t have before. So I hope, like you do for yourself, not to head down that road again.
I can totally rationalise the fatigue as a hangover from the LE and other things I had happening simultaneously. Thank you, though, for the suggestion about a physical health MOT. I did have reason to get my iron levels checked a few weeks ago and they were all good. If the tiredness persists beyond my next work break and accompanying relaxation time, I’ll ask for some more checks. I expect it to fade with time and patience.
Dear LaR,
Wow, you have come a long way, by the sounds of it. Overall, this feeling of fatigue sounds very much like the road to recovery.
I had been thinking of your recovery process yesterday because I was doing a bit of self-reflection on my own recovery, which has steadily improved, but very slowly, much much slower than @CSC’s! I was wondering about where you were in the process and whether you’d experience a similar trajectory to mine.
I distinctly remember the stage that you describe. I think that if I was to characterise it that I felt more bored than fatigued. I have described it before as feeling like life was beige and that, while I no longer felt those roller coaster ups and downs of limerence, I did feel that life was less interesting. I remember feeling worried that life would change into something less appealing without LO excitement and stimulation and how this might come to feel like a loss – by which I mean, grief for the feeling about a less interesting life rather than the loss of LO specifically – by this stage I had accepted that LO was not a prospect and it was more about what LO represented in my life.
A big worry that was motivation was lacking (could this be linked for you too?). I was anxious that some of the improvements that I made in my life would drift and get lost without the huge motivation of limerence. I think, if I can be so presumptuous, that your fatigued reaction may come from a slightly different version of what I went through, which is about covering all bases in your care for LO, SO, and others including folks on here at LwL). Perhaps the expression of limerence, for you, was a huge upsurge in tenderness and thought for everyone’s well-being. If so, I can only imagine how draining that must have been, the cognitive load so significant that you are now simply tired mentally. Even though a nod or a smile is often enough for others who depend on us, I think if we are wired that way, we can go way over the top in limerence. And others do not appreciate the cost of our care – I know this from being the listening ear myself – in fact, people come to depend on us more and more. I agree wholeheartedly with Mila that you should have a check up, physically, as that will put your mind at ease. Then, all being well, maybe you can simply accept that you need a rest from frying your brain with so much thought, care, analysis, responsiveness,…. (if any of these things sound familiar to you?).
My own ‘beige’ phase dates from, perhaps, eight or nine months ago and I can now look back and report that I moved beyond that and into a better stage. For example, I can now see that I was worrying for nothing on the ‘motivation’ side and that I still feel good and motivated on my personal goals. I also feel like life is no longer ‘beige’, but instead has what I would characterise as a normal level of colour, no pyrotechnics, but plenty to look forward to and motivation to get projects on the go. But – I can’t stress this enough – this did take time – it has taken me 5 years, or so start to finish! So, in summary, I think, perhaps, that you just need time to get over your fatigue stage. As wise heads on here have said, that may be less frustrating if you simply accept it. For me, I also needed some little “carrots” to help keep my brain occupied and prevent negativity (for me this was silly things like baking a cake, to improve morale with the family and have mini-celebrations). Maybe now is not the time for anything deep or meaningful, while you are tired, just something pleasurable and taking time to indulge yourself a bit? What does a little self-indulgence for LaR look like, I would be fascinated to know!?
Hi @Bewitched
I have been meaning to reply to a dangling reply you posted to me, a while back (regarding pride) and I just haven’t done so! I have composed it many times in my head…I’ll get to that when I have time to actually write something decent. 🙂 I had a couple of questions to ask you, and I just haven’t organized them!
But just for now, I wanted to tell you what a lovely, introspective and descriptive mind you have. You have clearly looked at your LE across many facets. It’s so helpful to read about how you have turned it over in your mind. 🙂 I can relate to what you’re describing, around motivation and around going back to one’s life, without the thrill of LO. You’ve helped me see some of the things I’m feeling, more clearly.
❤️
Thanks CSC, that’s a lovely thing to say.
(You made my evening ❤️)
Hi Bewitched,
As ever I hugely appreciate the time you take to correspond with me.
“I was wondering about where you were in the process and whether you’d experience a similar trajectory to mine.”
I feel things have moved quite quickly – perhaps more of a ‘quick jump’ than in yours, but I’m not sure on that? LO has been helpful with shifts to the boundaries (removal of most of the behaviours that generated uncertainty and hope) without ever being unkind. I think it has allowed my ‘F’ death of hope to catch up with the ‘T’ death of hope. I feel it unlikely I will get sucked back in, but am not blind to the early warning signs when they come (have encountered those once so far). Despite the tiredness etc, I do see all this as a net good thing that opens the door to coming back to myself properly.
I think what will happen next for me and LO is working out whether and how there can be an ongoing friendship and/or professional relationship. Again, reading how this has been for Mila and you (although I know you don’t categorise it as ‘friendship’) at least gives me some different insights into how that could look / what different things there are to consider.
“A big worry that was motivation was lacking (could this be linked for you too?).”
I channelled a lot of my motivation in that one direction (and things associated) for ages, so for sure, it feels different. There are other directions it can go in instead – but as we discussed before, and like you put it again above, a lot of it for me is about how to channel it towards *myself*, not trying to direct loads of it externally.
“I also feel like life is no longer ‘beige’, but instead has what I would characterise as a normal level of colour, no pyrotechnics, but plenty to look forward to and motivation to get projects on the go”
I would take that, at the moment. I am super-glad to hear that this is how it feels for you now. It sounds like great progress in the world of the White Dame in the last 9 months. Even beige would be OK and acceptable for me, just for a while, once the tiredness subsides a bit.
“What does a little self-indulgence for LaR look like, I would be fascinated to know!?”
Day-to-day, it would start with toast and a pot of tea under the duvet with a good book or watch. The caveat is that the pot of tea means I don’t have to move for the duration of drinking it. It is funny that I should be saying this now, as I am indulging in exactly such a pot of tea as we ‘speak’. I am on for a Netflix binge for several hours.
Then LaR time would ideally involve nature – my ideal retreat would be glamping or camping, walking, being off grid, cooking outdoors etc. This is not meant as part of the ‘LWL farming joke’ – it is very much my favourite way to spend time. When I go away, I don’t really want to talk to people! (I constantly talk to people – give me animals and birds!). It’s something that I do a few times each year – usually with SO but I have also done it alone. Enjoyment of that each time in the second half of 2023 and across 2024 was very much hampered by the lim-brain, but I think I’ll be able to do it this year without that shadow hanging over it too much. So that’s to look forward to. I agree with your idea too that doing some nice home-cooking is a good motivator.
Keep going with everything you’re doing – your progress and your posts continue to inspire 😁
Hey LaR,
Aw that indulgence of yours sounds fantastic. Its not really indulgent at all (sounds very healthy) – only thats the best type! Properly nourishing.
I hope you pencil-in plans for when you feel better. Anticipation is often the best part, eh?
Maybe stay away from the poetry though (a terrible lim brain weakness of mine when it comes to nature, sets me right off 😬). Walking so much you fall into a dreamless sleep, waking to birdies and nature’s rustling, sounds fab.
Hi Lim-a-rant,
It’s great to see that you received an abundance of support. I’ll add my thoughts…
I vote that you try an outdoor run or maybe some yard work. I always feel better when I do something physically demanding in the sun. Just thinking about it makes me happy.
By the way, it sounds like you are experiencing some depression. I wonder if you have been cranky with your loved ones. Arthur Brooks says that the keys to happiness are enjoyment, satisfaction and purpose. I think he is right. Also, I find that gratitude, exercise and sunshine are the best ways to regulate my mood.
Hi Lovisa,
You are right with basically all you say. Yes, being outside, physical activity or, best still, both together really are the best medicine. I will do as much of that as I can as the weather warms up and the days get longer. As for running – I know that has served you fantastically. I have an old but persistent injury that has stopped me from running for several years (or at least I have used it as a reason/excuse!). But it’s fair to say it has healed a lot more now, so maybe I will force myself to put it to the test gently one day very soon. I’ll update you if I do!
LaR,
The Harp of Broken Strings
John Rollin Ridge
1827 –1867
A stranger in a stranger land,
Too calm to weep, too sad to smile,
I take my harp of broken strings,
A weary moment to beguile;
And tho no hope its promise brings,
And present joy is not for me,
Still o’er that harp I love to bend,
And feel its broken melody
With all my shattered feelings blend.
I love to hear its funeral voice
Proclaim how sad my lot, how lone;
And when, my spirit wilder grows,
To list its deeper, darker tone.
And when my soul more madly glows
Above the wrecks that round it lie,
It fills me with a strange delight,
Past mortal bearing, proud and high,
To feel its music swell to might.
When beats my heart in doubt and awe,
And Reason pales upon her throne,
Ah, then, when no kind voice can cheer
The lot too desolate, too lone,
Its tones come sweet upon my ear,
As twilight o’er some landscape fair:
As light upon the wings of night
(The meteor flashes in the air,
The rising stars) its tones are bright.
.
.
.
*********
https://youtu.be/LHb24KJnRZg?si=tuaadsOjO8kpiXN8
****
My same, old 🎶: expect, watch, and stay 🤫 QUIETLY 🤐 with fatigue, sadness, nostalgia, or “loss”…. [🐦🔥 not in any better place]
❄️ is with the King of Darkness : — https://youtu.be/0hvcxQ5DEJ4?si=2PxbLhBA8cJFLDh3
Snow,
Thank you for the persistent reminders just to sit with it, watch it, let it run its course. I appreciate you keeping on at me about this point.
I remain optimistic that Phoenix (sorry, don’t have the right emojis on my computer, only the phone, and it was going to end up as some kind of parrot!) will rise again in her own way … at her own pace …
🚜 🔋,
A 🦜 ? Better than a degenerated 🍅 , so she at least could imitate and throw rant back at their 👻 👻 originators….😜 (but DrL 🥼 would mute such a 🦜 in his LwL chambers! )
One issue with 🐦🔥 is that she 😴 wildly too much, thus really experiences/lives” imaginary wanted and unwanted narratives in the residual LE, causing both F and T unrest even if it is just the Unconscious 🤔 expresses some repressed or inhibited desires, anxiety, fear (eg. when 👽, or/and Mom or/and childhood frenemies, monks/nuns, cathedral/temple ….appeared, they all symbolize something else in the psyche.)
My 😔 🥱 😪 come from frequent short or poor sleeps (+ the lumbar aching ).
The recovery pace is very slow since the steps were backward and forward, curved and circled…. What could jumping off the bridge or even cliff do to a pair of 🪽❓
Glad to see you 🚜 🌱 all over LwL farm🌾
❄️🦜,
Yeah, 🚜 has been out seeing to the 👨🌾 work lately. Gotta make sure the 🍅 stay 💐, no 😻 is 😭 , the 🌽 keeps 🌱, no more 🧱 get 🔥🔥, and no more 🥔 go 🤢
🌄
🚜 🪫,
👍, 🎩 🚜 🌽 🌱 ! 🎶
🚫 🧱 🔥 ⚔️ 🗿 🔥 & 🚫 🤢 🥔 🤺 🏵️ 🌱 🍅 , 👻 👻 👅 🧃 🍅 🌾 🥔 🍸 🍹, 🍴🧁 🍨 🍟 🥮 🥢, & 👀 🐦🔥 🪽 👀 ⏩️ 🔎 🐉 .
🦸🏻♂️ 👽 💠💭, ⛔️ 💠 🏞️.
🦜,
🚜🌱🌽 🧠💭🤔❓️❓️➡️ 🗿(stoic?), &🧃 ?
🍧🤫❓️🧠🧠🧠✋️🤢🥔🧁🧁🥷
“🦸🏻♂️ 👽 💠💭, ⛔️ 💠 🏞️”
👍❄️🏖➡️👽🔙⬆️⬆️🚀🌌🪐
🎩 🚜 🌱 🌽 🌱 ,
🗿➡️ stone, 🧃➡️ TJ
🤫 👁️ 🍨👏 🤢🥔 😊 , 🥷 🧁 🧁 🥷 ❗️
❄️ 👂 🚫 👀 🚀 (👽 🏘️), 🧠❓🚀 🔙 🚀⬆️ 🌌🪐❓🧠
👨🌾 🥂 🦜
❄️,
🗿✅️
🧃=TJ ➡️ 🚜🤯
👽🚀🪐 etc =
🚜🧠🔨 .
I don’t know how to say that part in pictures if my previous attempt was unsuccessful. Basically I wondered if your upcoming vacation would represent a chance to send the 🚀 back to 🪐. But I might have misread your previous – 💠 = ❔️
🧃=➡️ 🍅 🥤
👽🚀🪐 🟰 👽🚀⬆️🛸 🏡
💠➡️ Inside/in
My upcoming vacation has 0️⃣ to do with the 🚀 🔙to 🪐.
👽🚀 💠 🏘/🏙.
🦜 🥂🍻🚜
🚜🎩&❄️,
“🤫🍧👏🏻🥔🤢” etc 😂🤣😭👏🏻🙌🏻
T🍧
🚜🎩 😟 🍧🚄🏴🏰
🏰🌽🛤 🙈 🤢🥔 🥷✊️🍧🇫🇷🧁🧁🧁 ➡️➡️➡️ ❄️🦜❗️
🚨🚨🚨🚨
❓️🍧🚫 🧁🥷❓️
🚫🚫✔️ = 🚜🧊 🍹🍹🍹🍧
🍨 & tractor 🎩 🌽 🌱 & ,
✴️🟰 obviously; 😵💫 🟰 confused/frustrated
⌛️🟰long ago/time; 🔜 🟰 shortly;
⤵️ 🟰but; 🔀 🟰to do;
❌ 🚫⛔️🟰 no/not; 🤞👈🏿 🟰here; 👉 🟰there
🌞 🟰 a day; 🎴🟰 a night,
👤 🟰 shadow; 👁️🗨️ /🆔🟰 I;
👁️ 🟰 think/perceive/intuit;
⛓️💥 🟰 break free; 💦 🟰 Splash 💥 🟰 blast
📈 🟰 highly; 📉 🟰lowly
🍖 🤓🟰 doggy LO; ❔🤥 🟰white lies
🙇♂️/🙇🏻♀️ 🟰narcissist; 😤 🟰 arrogant; 😎 🟰 proud; 🪭🟰vanity/dandy; 👾 🟰 jealous
🧨 ⬆️ 🟰 LE fuel/high; 💣⬇️🟰 LE low
***********
✴️ 🍨 👏 🥰 🤢🥔 ⌛️; 🤢🥔 📈🙌 🍨⌛️; 🚫👾 👈🏿
🎩 🚜,
🆔👁️ 💠 🤢 🥔, 🍨 🚫🟰/❌ 🇫🇷 🧁, ➡️ 🤢 🥔 👁️ 🛟💎 & 💥 🔝 ❄️ 🐦🔥
💠 🏰 🏞️, 💂 💪 🍨,👅 💦 🧊 🍹 🍸 🥤 🍷 🥂 🍻 &
😘 🇫🇷 😘 !
➡️ 🟰 to/for
👍 🚜🎩 👁👁 ❄️🐦🔥 9️⃣5️⃣♾️
🤔 “9️⃣5️⃣♾️” ➡️ 9️⃣ ⏰ 5️⃣ 🔄 ❓
It meant 95% 👁=👁, but that’s enough to get it.
Several of the symbols (most in your last message, and the 95% in mine), aren’t transmitting properly on LwL, at least on my phone. Some also in your symbol language guide. Might be OK when I look on non-phone version.
9️⃣5️⃣%…
I’m aware that what 🆔 👀 here might be different from what’s on every 👻’s screen. I’ll elaborate when it comes to complicated situations.
✍️ ㊙️ (pictograms) ♻️ (reduce) 😬 & 😨 🫦 🔫…
You’ve 🌬 my curiosity now and I can’t help going back into words – is this basically how symbolic languages like yours were first derived – is the written character like a drawing of the thing? I know that’s pretty much how hyroglyphics work. It is amazing how much the emojis can express when one practises enough – decoding it is fun too, if hard work!
🎩 🌽—
To see if this could help you understand a bit — https://youtu.be/U0EySK4T2aY
We use 2000-3000 regularly (4️⃣ parts of our 🧠 all bulb under MRI, English speaker only, 1️⃣ part 💡 ).
Your 🧠 would keep developing if you try to learn pictorial language even after your retirement.
㊙️ — secret ㊗️ — wish/hope 🧧— luck
❄️ and 🚜,
I am so far behind in your emoji stories, I don’t think I can catch up! I hope I’m not missing some important message.
In my message I was just applauding your emoji skillz!
All I got was that 🍧 is not the same as 🇫🇷🧁 and that I shouldn’t get into 🧁 throwing fights with ninjas! And I’m not sure I got even that right…
Also 🚜, why the 😔 face in relation to 🚄🏴🏰 ?
🚜,
🍧💭🗣️➡️🚜: 🔁🔝-P
But 🤫🙊
🍨,
🫵 ✅! 🇫🇷 🧁 ❌🔀 🍨. ⚠️ 🥷🛠️🪓🧰… ⤴️🫵 🆘 🆔, 🫂 🤗
⤴️ / ⤵️ 🟰 but 👍 / but 👎
♟️🟰 anything
🔄/🔃 🟰 repeat/circle
🎱 / 🔮 🟰 uncertainty
🍧,
💠🏴🏰 = 🌑🧙♂️🧙♂️🧙♂️
🚜🎩🤔⚔️🛡👱♀️
⤴️❄️🐦🔥🔉🍧🛡🏰💂♂️💂♂️💂♂️
🪡🚜 (now) 😃😃😃🆒️
🚜 💕 “🍧💭🗣️➡️🚜:” ⤵️ P = ❔️
🚜,
Oh boy… ⚔️🛡️= ❓
🌑🧙🏼♀️🧙🏼♀️🧙🏼♀️ = 🥁🚶🏼♀️
🍧🚄🏴💠🌑🧙🏼♀️🧙🏼♀️🧙🏼♀️🧙🏼♀️
⤵️”🛡️🏰💂🏼♀️💂🏼♀️💂🏼♀️” = ❓
P = 🅾️
🔝 – P = ⚖️🧑🏼⚖️
❄️,
🆔🆘❄️👍🏼😄🤝🏼
👁️ ✍️,
⌛️, 🐉 ♦️ 💎 ⏳ 😳 😮 🗿 🧱 ↔️ 🐦🔥…⏳ 🐉 🧰 🧔 🪒 🫧 ↔️ 🐦🔥 …⏳ 🍨 👏 🐉…⏳🐉 🧰 🍨 🏹 🪒 🫧↗️ 🐦🔥; ⏳🐉 🔊 🤕 & 🐦🔥🪓 & 🐦🔥 🔥 🏹 🐉 …⌛️ 🐉 🔕 📉 🐍 … ⏳ 🐍 🔇 🐦🔥 … ⏳ 🐍 👏 🍨 & 🍨 🤝 🐍 … ⏳ 🐍 ⚡️ 😳 🔊🐦🔥🟰 🐍 👤… ⏳ 🐍 💤📉 🤢 🥔… ⏳🤢 🥔 🧰🤖 & 🇫🇷 🧁 🧁 🏹 🐦🔥🥷📉 🏵️🌱🍅… ⏳ 🍨 👏🤢🥔 & 🍨 😵 🆘 🏵️🌱🍅… 🎩 🚜 🌽 🌱 📈 🏵️🌱🍅↗️ 🦜 & ✅ 👍 🇫🇷 🧁 🧁
⌛️⏳ 🍨 👏 🐉 🐍🤢🥔, ⤴️ 🍨 👏 🥰🙌 🗣️ 🪝🔄 🎩 🚜 🌽 🧊 🍸 🍹 💦 🥤…. 🧠 🧐 ❓🤢🥔 👾 🎩 🌽, ✅ 💕 🇫🇷 🧁 & 🍨… ⚠️ 🍨 🚄 🧙♀️ 🏰 🧙➡️ 🎩 👨🌾 💂 🍨
⏰🔂, ⚠️☣️ 👁️ 🤢🥔 🏹💥 🥷 🔁 🏵️🌱🍅 🪓 💠 🌾🏞️
❄️ 😴 🔄 👽 🟰🪭🦚 🟰 🙇🕹️ 🐦🔥 ➡️ ❄️ 😠 😪 💔 …😴 💭
🆔 😞 😔 😮💨
👁️ ✍️,
⌛️, 🐉 ♦️ 💎 ⏳ 😳 😮 🗿 🧱 ↔️ 🐦🔥…⏳ 🐉 🧰 🧔 🍪 🍪 🪒 🫧 ↔️ 🐦🔥 …⏳ 🍨 👏 🐉…⏳🐉 🧰 🍨 🏹 🪒 🫧↗️ 🐦🔥; ⏳🐉 🔊 🤕 & 🐦🔥🪓 & 🐦🔥 🔥 🏹 🐉 …⌛️ 🐉 🔕 📉 🐍 … ⏳ 🐍 🔇 ↔️ 🤐 🐦🔥 … ⏳ 🐍 👏 🍨 ↔️ 🍨 🤝 🐍 … ⏳ 🐍 ⚡️ 😳 🔊🐦🔥🟰 🐍 👤… ⏳ 🐍 💤📉 🤢 🥔… ⏳🤢 🥔 🧰🤖 & 🇫🇷 🧁 🧁 🏹 🐦🔥& 📉 🐦🔥↘️ 🏵️🌱🍅… ⏳ 🍨 👏🤢🥔 & 🍨 😵 😵💫 🆘 🏵️🌱🍅… 🎩 🚜 🌽 🌱 📈 🏵️🌱🍅↗️ 🦜 & ✅ 💝 🇫🇷 🧁 🧁
⌛️⏳ 🍨 👏 🥰 🐉 🐍🤢🥔, ⤴️ 🍨 🙌 🥰 💟🪝🔄 🎩 🚜 🌽 🧊 🍸 🍹 💦 🥤…. 🧐 ❓🤢🥔 👾 🎩 🌽, ✅ 💝 🇫🇷 🧁 & 💟 🍨… ⚠️ ☣️🍨 🚄 🇬🇧 🧙♀️ 🏰 🧙, 🎩 🚜 👨🌾 🌽 💂 🍨💂!
⏰🔂, ⚠️☣️ 👁️ 🤢🥔 🏹💥 🥷 🔁 🐦🔥 🦜 🏵️🌱🍅 🪓 💠 🌾🏞️
❄️ 😴 🔄 👽 🟰🪭🦚 🅾️ 🟰 🙇🕹️ 🐦🔥 ➡️ ❄️ 😠 😪 💔 …😴 💭
🆔 😞 😔 😮💨
🍧
⚔️🛡️ = shield/protect
🥁🚶🏼♀️= ❓️(drum walk??)
” 🛡️🏰💂🏼♀️💂🏼♀️💂🏼♀️” = ❓”
= be shielded by the castle guards
You have totally flummoxed 🚜 with
“P = 🅾️
🔝 – P = ⚖️🧑🏼⚖️”
Some kind of balanced equation or case??
My original question was what did P stand for in the initial message?
🦜
❄️’s ✍️✍️✍️👍👍 – 🚜👁👁❄️97%!👏👏
⤵️ – 🧰 / 🏹 / ↗️ / 😵 / 😵💫 / 🔄 / 🔁 / 🔂 / 🙌 / ☣️ =❓️
🍧!
🧠🌊
“🔝 – P = ⚖️🧑🏼⚖️”
(Now) 🚜🎩💡💡💡👁👁🍧❗️❗️
🤫😉
🚜,
💡💡👏🏼🥳🤝🏼
And what is walking to the beat of the drum, which = 🌑🧙🏼♀️🧙🏼♀️🧙🏼♀️ ?
From 🦜🔥 I understood
🍧🗣️🪝🚜, although it was more like
🚜🗣️🍧🪝⚖️🧑🏼⚖️, 🍧🗣️🚜🚫👎🏼🪝😒🙄.
“P = 🅾️
🔝 – P = ⚖️🧑🏼⚖️”
🕰️🤞,❄️🧠 😶🌫️❓❓❓
⤵️/⤴️🟰 but 👎/but 👍
🧰 / 🏹 🟰use tool
↗️/↘️ 🟰 shoot up/down
😵 🟰 unknowingly
😵💫 🟰 confused
🔄 / 🔁 🟰 repeatedly/back & forth/circle
🔂🟰around clock, same issue
🙌 🟰 cheer up
☣️ 🟰 caution
🕰️ 🤞🟰 now
❄️ – 🍧💡🧩🧠❗️
🤔🤔🤔📤📦
“📤📦” =❓❓
🎮/🕹️/🖲️/🛂 = control
🆔 🧠 😶🌫️ 🍨’s 🔝-P = 🅾️ ⚖️ …
🍨,
⚖️🧑⚖️ ✅,
P= L🅾️❓❓, 🔝 = T🅾️ ❓❓
🅱️ = become/becoming
⚧️ = transform
♾️ = twisted circling
🌀 = frustrated
🤫 🤔 🤢 📴 🤢 🥔 🕰️ 👆🏼….
🍧,
“🚜🗣️🍧🪝⚖️🧑🏼⚖️, 🍧🗣️🚜🚫👎🏼🪝😒🙄.”
👍 🤮👿🚜🤦♂️🤦♂️ – 🚜🏫 🍧👩🏫 – 🚫🔁 🗣🪝⚖️👨⚖️🎣🔇🔇🔇
🎩 🚜,
🤫 🤫 👀 👁️⌚️ 👿 🤮 🔀 🧠 ♿️, 👉🪷 ☸️ 🕉️ 👈🏿 & 🦜 🧰 😈 🤮 👷🏻♀️💪 💎 🔛 🧠
⏰ ❄️ 🐌😩✂️📴/🫥👽🎭🔛🧖♂️〰️➿🔜👍 👍 🛌 😴
✍️🔁 ✍️,
🎩 🚜,
🤫 🤫 👀 👁️⌚️ 👿 🤮 🔀 🧠 ♿️, 👉🪷 ☸️ 🕉️ 👈🏿 & 🦜 🧰 😈 🤮 👷🏻♀️💪 💎 🔛 🧠 💬
⏰ ❄️ 🐌😩✂️📴👽🎭🔛🫥, ⏳〰️➿🔜 🦜 🎒👍 👍 🛌 😴
🎒 = have
💎 = Stoic
〰️/➿ == gradually / back and forth
🚜🏫🧑🏼🏫💯👏🏼
🕰️🤞🏻⚖️🪝🍧, ⚖️🍧🎢😬🍧😥🤔
🍧➡️⬅️🚜7️⃣🌚🌚🌚🌚🕖🤛🏼🌳🤜🏼🍻❓
🦜🔥, 🔝✅
🍨,
✅ 🔝- 🅾️ ⚖️, 🚫 🪝🧑⚖️ 🎣 ⤴️ ⚖️, 🍨 🧑🏼🏫 🧮 ✅👍
🥰 🙌 7️⃣ 🌑 🌑 🌑🌑 🕖 🚜 🤝 🫂 🍨 🏞️🫚🫖 🍮 🥂🤩🎈
✍️ 👻 👀 👻 👀 ☀️ 🌙 🌳 📝 🤫 🗣️ 🦜 🔥🍷 🥃 🧊 🍹🍸 &👻 👻 👻 👻…
🍧,
🚜🏡👨🌾⏫️🏴🏰 ☹️ & 7️⃣👨💻😥😞
⤴️🚜🗣↔️🍧😀👍💬
❔️ 🚜🧿💡🍧🧠💭🧠
🪡 🚜🔎🙏 🧮 🗝
🌚 = ❔️↔️ 🌕❔️
& ✅️❔️ 🤛🏼 & 🤜🏼 = 🅿️
If 🚜✖️ 😞 😞❕️
🍧
(To fill in ‘Typo’ bit ⬆️)
7 👨💻 😥 😞
🚜,
“7️⃣🧑🏼💻”➡️🚫👁️🍧➡️😢🆗
⤴️🤔🍧👁️🧑🏼⚕️L📖🥳8️⃣💠🏴🏰…🤔
But as for the rest of your message, you lost me… There was a lot of 🗣️and 🧠 but about what?
🌚=🌙
🤛🏼🌳🤜🏼= whomping willow
🚜💭💬
🧑🏼⚕️📖🥳🎱 ✅️
⤵️❔️🏢
🍧💠💠🏰🎱 🚫7?
The rest (the bit you couldn’t work out) please honestly just ignore! Sometimes 🚜👀😵💫❎️ 👓❕️
❄️🦜🔥 –
👆㊙️🤫!
📤📦 = think outside the box
(Sorry not enough time to think how to ’emote’ the below completely):
I didn’t understand your bit about 😈🤮 but I think we have crossed wires about that. That’s just a very old joke with 🍧 about when I messed up about 🪝⚖️👨⚖️.
🚜㊗️❄️🐦🔥🛏💤💤
🚜,
“❔🏢” You mean where it is?
🍧🚫🧠, 🤷🏼♀️
🍧💠🏰: 7️⃣, 8️⃣, 9️⃣…
🍧🏃🏼♀️🔄🏰, 🎭⛲🌉🚖🏙️🚇🎟️🌳🏃🏼♀️😅
🍮 & 🚜,
🦜 💭 💬 : 🚜 👱🏻♂️🪡 🔎 🆓 🕰️ (🚫 🧑🏻💻) 💠 7️⃣/8️⃣ /9️⃣ , & 🤝 🆙🍨 👀 @ 🍽️ ☕️ /🌳/🏰/🏛️/⛩️
🉑 (👌🆗 ): 🍨🉑🚶🏻♀️➡️ 🤜 🚜’s 🧑🏻💻 🤛, ⏳ 🤝 🆙 🚜 👀 @ ☕️ 🍽️
🍨 & 🚜 👨🌾 ➡️ 🧠 💬💭, 💪🪡🧑🍳🍳🆙 ➡️ 👀 🫂 👀 ‼️
❄️ 🤫 ㊙️ ✅
🎩 🌽: ✅ 🚮 ⌛️😈 🤮 💬💭 💤
🍨 🉑 ❔ 🚖 / 🚇/ 🚶🏻♀️➡️➡️ 🤜 🎩 🌽 🧑🏻💻🤛 🚶🏻♀️🍴🫚 🫖 🍲 🧆 @ 🕛〰️🕔❓
Thank you for the outpouring of kindness and great ideas in all your replies. I’ll respond to some of it properly eventually.
It is good that there are so many of us at the moment trying to become more resolute and move on, however this looks for us. Hat tips to all that are miles ahead of me on the journey and also those who are with me nearer the beginning stages of becoming more resolute. Good to have the ‘company’ 🎩
Sending all the positive vibes your way LaR 🤗.
LaR,
I would have responded but our LEs are dramatically different I believe and what may have worked for me probably wouldn’t work for you.
The death of my hope was met with a bottomless pit of anxiety and despair. This all because of LOs sweeping transfer to our warehouse next door. I would’ve liked to have just placed all my resentment and regret into the cedar chest, but it didn’t work out like that. My days were spent in great sorrow, with tears, madness and endless hours of writing sad poetry. With a touch of suicidal ideation and self loathing. Like punishing myself just because I could and for no good reason. It was a madness I wanted expelled but somehow felt drawn to. And all because it was “Her”. That damned beautiful, perfect godsend, LO.
I realize none of what I did was positive purposeful living strategies and if anything, just a lazy pathetic excuse for a middle aged twit like myself that can’t get their act together. If I did anything positive, then I suppose I did a lot of praying about things and asking for guidance in all the confusion and regret. Can you even believe that all happened over someone I never even really knew? I mean what insanity is all that about?? I wouldn’t have recommended my way for anyone then and I hardly want to recommend it now. The best advice then I can only impart is that if you’re going thru hell, just keep going through it.
Apologies for bringing the tone down a notch. You seem to be doing well and I’m glad to read about your effort. Keep up the good work my Friend. It sounds like you have your $#!+ together..
MJ,
I never mind you replying to my posts, even though things are so different for both of us. What matters is that the things you did were the ones that made sense to you, not anyone else.
“It sounds like you have your $#!+ together..”
I’m a master of illusion! I guess yes, on some levels I think I do too. On others, I have been swept around completely unknown territories, felt quite knocked off my feet, and behaved quite ‘outside of myself’. I think I just need to work mindfully through the current stage, however long it takes and see what comes next.
Hello all. Its been a while since I visited LwL. Wanted to do a check in now.
Though I am doing better in managing my LE on a day to day basis, this is fuelled by zero contact with LO, every now and then, I feel a little sad thinking about LO. I do get out of these lows fairly quickly, whereas earlier, these use to bog me down for days.
I wonder whether I will reach a stage where I do not get sad thinking about her, I am not there yet definitely. But I am encouraged by the fact that overall, I am coping with this whole LE better than before.
As Speedwagon said, need to hang in there and keep grinding away.
This is definitely the hardest thing I have done in my life, given the timespan of it all.
Thanks for listening.
Hi ABCD! It’s good to hear from you. To answer your question, I don’t feel sad when I think of my LO2. I marvel that limerence happened. If my LO2 pops up in my thoughts, I usually just think about the moment, like if it’s hiking-related I think something like “I should ask LO2 if there is a good preparatory hike before I take my kids on such-and-such big hike.” If/when I remember that I had limerence for LO2, I marvel that limerence is a thing and it seems surreal knowing that I went through it. It’s like looking at a natural spring. I’m looking at it, wondering how it happened, and kind of fascinated by it. I hope that makes sense.
You might not feel sad as time passes. Maybe one day, you might feel amused when LO enters your thoughts. Maybe proud of the way you handled it.
Have a wonderful day!
Thanks Lovisa! Yes, I am guessing it will take some time for me to get to your stage. Every LE is different, and all of us progress at our own pace. Cheers.
Dear ABCD,
It is so nice to hear from you again.
I always assume when I do not see posts that it is because people are feeling well. This seems (mostly) to be the case for you?
You mentioned sometimes feeling sad when you think of LO. maybe it would be useful to spend some time thinking about why you feel sad. What is the reason to feel that way. Is it because you feel that you lost something? Or something else, like a whole other imagined life? Or something else perhaps? Not necessary to reply to me, but I wondered whether you interrogating that feeling a little bit might provide clues about what is your continued path to recovery.
You and me have been for a while, ABCD. Recovery is painfully slow, isn’t it? It does seem like two steps forward, though, because you are thinking about her less and less. Personally, once that process starts, I think it can snow-ball and recovery can speed up, as long as one does not back-slide into rumination, ‘what ifs?’, pedestal-building of LO, etc. Certainly, although it has been slow and incremental, recovery from my LE has been steadfast. Maybe we all just need time – as well as continuous vigilance (like @Speedwagon says!).
In the meantime, I do think that some little personal treats or goals help counteract the negativity and Lovisa has outlined a few (mine are less healthy than hers :D)
Thanks Bewitched! Great to hear from you as well.
Previously, when I used to feel low, I seeked LO for gratification, and it mostly used to work, as I used to get a reciprocal response from her. Now, when I feel low, I do not seek LO, and I do not want to seek LO. I mean if we come f2f, sure I will say hello and make some talk, but I am not actively trying to seek her, which is a plus.
Having said that, whenever there is a trigger, like if someone talks about her, or if I “spot” her, I get a mild feeling of anxiety. This usually goes away after some time.
Maybe I am tired given the length of this, but overall, I am on the path to recovery.
Hope I am making some sense.
Dear ABCD,
You are indeed making sense. You’ve noticed a few things like “Maybe I am tired given the length of this, but overall, I am on the path to recovery.” Have you seen LaR’s post about tiredness? Besides tiredness, also the lack of validation and reciprocal response that you used to get from her seems like it is leading to some sadness (or anxiety). It must leave a void when you are (wisely) no longer seeking that. Validation must come from other things, my friend. And, of course, removal of any negativity that causes a need to self medicate. These are weighty subjects! But can be put off, I think, until one is ready for them. Gratitude for day-to-day improvements and distractions on harder days are a shorter term fix? This approach has worked for me.
Sending all my best.
Lovisa, your comment about your LE being “surreal” made me think about something I’ve been wanting to ask about for a while. Did you (or any other limerents here) seriously devalue your SO and/or relationship with them, and if it was actually a very good relationship, how did you view that specific behavior after the LE subsided? Were you able to explain that aspect to your SO? How did you mend your relationships? Are you able to eventually regain an appreciation or respect for your SO? Do you even remember the devaluing, or does it remain surreal?
Any insight would be appreciated!
Thank you so much Lovisa, and also to IMHO and Adam for your previous kind words and helpful advice.
Fabulous questions, Libra SO!
“ Did you (or any other limerents here) seriously devalue your SO and/or relationship with them?”
No. Absolutely not. I respect my husband very much.
Instead of devaluing my SO, I put a lot of effort into strengthening our relationship. I can tell you what actions I took if you want more details… relationship experts, improving my appearance, improving my delightful personality (lol).
“If it was actually a very good relationship, how did you view that specific behavior after the LE subsided? “
I think you are asking how I viewed devaluing my SO after the limerent fog lifted. Since I didn’t devalue my SO, I can’t really answer your question.
“ Were you able to explain that aspect to your SO?”
I think this is about devaluing so I can’t really contribute anything helpful.
“How did you mend your relationships?”
My SO and I did a lot of things. Both of us put effort into our connection: running together, playing games, talking, lots of bedroom activities, camping… We had some very difficult conversations. I don’t know if any specific thing did the trick. I think we got through it because both of us continued to work together with the common goal of strengthening our marriage.
“Are you able to eventually regain an appreciation or respect for your SO?”
I have always admired and respected my SO. Limerence didn’t change how I feel about my husband. Well… to be honest, I admire him even more because I am in awe of the way he handled my limerence.
“Do you even remember the devaluing, or does it remain surreal?”
I’m so sorry that I can’t help you. I didn’t devalue my husband. I’m trying to think of a current community member who devalued their spouse and MJ is the best that I can think of. His situation is very different than yours, but he will have perspectives on the devaluing of SO issue. *Shout out to MJ*
I think you would benefit from Marriage Helper. They talk about something called “rewriting history” which I think is what you are asking about when you say devaluing. It seems to be common when someone has an affair. Yes, there are couples who healed their marriage even after one of them devalued the other.
I am so sorry for what you are going through. I wasn’t clear if your husband cheated or if he just has limerence. You don’t have to share. Only share what you feel comfortable talking about.
Keep those questions coming! We want to support you!
Libra SO,
If you’d be interested in some answers to your questions from the pov of a male limerent in recovery, please say. I thought about commenting last week on the thread between you and the other SOs but did not want to butt in or appear to be self-justifying my LE when that wouldn’t have been my intention. That’s still how I feel, so I will only say more if it might genuinely be helpful.
My SO and I have weathered my LE – not without some difficulty (much of which I take the blame for), but we have.
HI LibraSO , yes, at the height of the ‘madness’ in 2 epsiodes, definitely, but we did go back to ‘normal’.
I suppose the problem is every relationships has it’s quirks and shortcomings, lean periods, and tough times, and it is easy to expand them into something monumental and important, rather than just the world not being 100% what we want it to be.
The first time, LE3, it was with small children, my father died which I struggled to process due to a difficult relationship with him, me questioning living in SOs home country, and eventually we took part in marriage counselling to resolve it. In retrospect i realize i was overblowing certain problems, but there were issues in our relationship. Suffice to say we recovered when the 2nd child arrived and was all fine.
On a recent relapse, after having discovered LwL, i was more aware of what I was doing and kept it mostly under control, and now as the limerence fades out we are more or less fine again. Again, there are underlying issues, we are good partners but more of an opposite attracts kind of situation, which is enriching but sometimes frustrating. I think we would still qualify as a ‘good to very-good’ relationship.
I never disclosed, which in some ways is selfish as it means I cant talk about the devaluing not really being about her or only about our relationship, but also there are some historical reasons that mean it is likely to go down very badly. It of course leaves scars. As far as possible I tried to deflect the reasoning onto the bigger issues I had around the time to try and imply it was for an ‘external’ reason, to alleviate any hurt i caused.
Some articles around this:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/whats-happened-to-my-spouse/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-should-i-wait-for-my-limerent-husband-to-come-to-his-senses/
„It’s like looking at a natural spring. I’m looking at it, wondering how it happened, and kind of fascinated by it. I hope that makes sense.“
I love that, Lovisa!
Thanks Mila!
I’m doing much better these days due to a lot of LC momentum and some other female relationships I am enjoying. But, I do still get hit with those moments of sadness where I wish LO and I had something. These moments last about half a day and usually occur after heavier work interactions with LO. I get about one a week. My main strategy is just to recognize I’m in a low and know that by tomorrow it is usually gone and to just push through it.
Hi Speedwagon. I am doing pretty much the same thing. Taking the sad feelings head on, and pushing through. Thankfully, these feelings are less intense than before. However, unlike you, my contact with LO is pretty much zero. Hope we see the light at the end of the tunnel soon.
Hi @ABCD
I was speaking with a therapist yesterday (yes, my limerent tendencies have landed me in therapy, where I need to be, because I cannot keep going with the pattern…I’m about as serial as it gets, I think!)
I told them I felt…more stable…now that I’m in NC. They asked me to explain that, so I did. Like you, no more days-long bouts of panic and desperation, physical symptoms abating, and just, feeling more grounded. But, then they asked me if I felt I could remain stable around LO. I said: absolutely not.
So, what I thought was interesting was that they said I had not “detached”. To them, “Detaching” is when you literally do not care anymore. I think it’s a bit different from the deterioration phase. It’s like, the one that comes after that. Once it happens, you could run into LO, you could show up somewhere where they are. You just don’t care. The most embarassing thing could happen right in front of LO’s eyes, and you would not care one bit. The LE is just…something that happened. You’re literally not attached to it anymore. When it’s happened to me, I’ve felt truly toughened, and very naturally protected, from LO.
I have had many LE’s, and I will say, that point DOES come. For me, it comes pretty quickly if I go total blackout NC. This means no interaction at all, avoiding triggers (for instance, avoiding going to a neighborhood that reminds me of LO, or even eating a candy that reminds me of LO)….all those triggers…I try to completely shut down…
Letting the grief flow. If I feel sad, I miss LO, I let myself miss them. But I do NOT act.
You can do this, and I believe you will detach completely. I know it’s very, very hard to imagine. But, you can do it, especially with the totality of your NC.
I’m no scientist but I’ll put it in layperson’s terms: At some point, your brain will literally change. And it will detach. Even if you wanted it to reattach, it might not be able to. Your LE will be something that happened to you, but it won’t be part of you. I feel that if you stay on your path, even though it’s hard, and thankless right now, you will get there. I have!
…I say this as I grapple with a new LE, so, I say this from the perspective of what happened in my “priors” :))
csc
If I may barge in a bit (although I have no right at all, skimming posts and missing a lot at the moment), it’s a bit different for me. My LOs are still people I care about in a way, and I would still care if something embarrassing would happen in front of them, or if something bad happened to them. I‘m just not limerent any more.
Being limerent had to do with me alone, it wasn’t their fault, and they are still people I liked and who were a part of my life🤷🏻♀️
If my LO1 developed into an a..hole and I avoid him now as much as I can, that doesn’t have anything to do with limerence, at the most with having been limerently blind to his bad sides- still, he also has good sides, and there has been a time when we were close. I think I would never be completely dismissive of them or not care at all.
But that‘s me.
Me, too.
Thanks, Mila. In my case, LO and I were never friends, and we did not talk a lot.
My strategy when I see LO would look something like this – say hello and make some small talk if I get the chance, otherwise just move on. Earlier, if she exhibited cold behavior, this just gutted me. Now, I feel I would be more accepting if we do not speak during an event. Sure, it may still make me sad, but the intensity would be reduced. And at this stage, I really do not think I need validation from her.
Perhaps my LE has a long tail.
I realized I wasn’t a big help now😂
I‘m sure in many cases it’s a good idea to go NC and reach that state of mind. I guess I should just stay more on track here or shut up😂
@Mila
oops no no – I totally understand what you’re saying, too! I didn’t mean “you don’t care” as in…you don’t care at all about them, or, feel negative about them, wish them ill, etc. What I mean is, they have no effect on you. You can stay stable around them, because you are back to yourself, not hyper-aware or hyper-sensitive to every little thing. Sorry if I was unclear or sounded overly harsh!
But yes, for me the total blackout NC has been the only way to ever get there. Otherwise…I’ll just loop endlessly! waaaah
CSC,
Now my turn to say „no,no“😂😂
You weren’t overly harsh ,or unclear. We are all different and our LEs and LOs are different, I just wanted to throw in my two cents, namely that I haven’t experienced a complete detachment, they still have some kind of special place in my mind.
But! I think that’s easy if two of 3 LOs live at a distance now, and the last one is an a..hole😂😂😂
No, you all have to find your way how it works best, and if NC and detachment works, then that’s the way!
CSC,
Re your interpretation of your conversation with your therapist about ‘detachment’ …
I think I know what the therapist meant and especially with your interpretation: “once it happens, you could run into LO, you could show up somewhere where they are. You just don’t care.”
I think this will often take quite a long time after DOH. Bewitched has forewarned me of “the long tail”. I’d be interested to know if she thinks she (9ish months ahead of me with DOH if I read it right) has reached the true detachment stahe stage (as defined in your bit I quoted above).
I think deterioration and DOH can happen long before detachment does and are still a part of the healing. I have come to understand DOH as real Death of (feeling) Hope. I had the intellectual DOH where I knew it could/ would never happen a long while ago, but it isn’t (wasn’t) a true DOH until the heart catches up with the head. But I see DOH as a process, not a flick of a switch, and only once that process has run its course can detachment occur.
In short – even if you don’t feel detached, don’t underestimate or second-guess your progress.
I’ll respond properly to your reply to my fatigue post when I’m not so tired (lol!). There has been an overwhelming amount of stuff on LwL that I want to respond to, but no time. But I thought it might help to know that most of what you said does really resonate and help. Safe harbours, wrung out towels, prolonged overstimulation … you should really do something amazing with that way of words of yours! 🪶
Thanks for the support, CSC. Yes, I do not think I could remain stable around LO, yet. This situation has not presented itself for some time. I am not seeking LO now, so that to me means I am making progress. Right now, I just wish I or LO move away so there is no chance of interaction, that would make me happy I think. Of course, this is not in my hand. LO and I were never friends, and we never really had any deep conversations. So in my case, whether LO and I can still be friends does not really arise.
Yes, so I hope I can get to the detach face that you have explained. That definitely smells like freedom.
Aspiration
Adah Isaacs Menken
Poor, impious Soul! that fixes its high hopes
In the dim distance, on a throne of clouds,
And from the morning’s mist would make the ropes
To draw it up amid acclaim of crowds—
Beware! That soaring path is lined with shrouds;
And he who braves it, though of sturdy breath,
May meet, half way, the avalanche and death!
O poor young Soul!—whose year-devouring glance
Fixes in ecstasy upon a star,
Whose feverish brilliance looks a part of earth,
Yet quivers where the feet of angels are,
And seems the future crown in realms afar—
Beware! A spark thou art, and dost but see
Thine own reflection in Eternity!
****
Every LO is the “star” and “thine own reflection”… 🐦🔥
My therapist said that what you can from limerence and an LE is about perceived needs or wants in your life. For instance, in my case, the reasons for attaching to my LO may be about things that I am not getting in my marriage and perceive (almost certainly incorrectly) I would get if I lived my fantasy life with LO. As an example, we are 2 working parents with a rascally 4-year-old son, so alot of convos with my wife are about logistics and scheduling and such, not exactly the type of fun and sexy talk we had when we were dating/engaged/without a child. Also, I feel she is often overly critical of me (to be fair, she is much more so to herself), but of course LO doesn’t criticize me in the same ways (b/c our lives are so less intertwined, and she knows so much less about me, and as a friend there is usually tolerance of criticism than from a spouse). And I know LO has faults; we had an argument last week and literally did not speak for 24 hours before things were patched up. But whereas I often focus on my wife’s overly critical nature, with LO I kind of just elide over those unpleasant facts. I’m not sure if I made any actual points here as opposed to just ranting, but thanks for hearing me out anyway!
Dear J,
“I’m not sure if I made any actual points here as opposed to just ranting”
Yes, yes, yes and yes! You are making perfect sense.
In order to combat that ‘new relationship energy’ that you feel around LO, why not imagine what it would be like to be running constant errands and trying to keep a household ticking over with her, while tired and stressed, maybe even with a sick kid and stressful week at work. Also, how it would feel when she started getting tired of your jokes, noticing your nose hairs, etc. Pardon my frankness, but I have found thoughts like these very helpful when recalibrating things in my own limerence episodes :). Also, instead of feeling down on your wife maybe focus on how LO ain’t all that? I think this will help you feel more positive in a helpful direction for recovery. Personally I liked to make little scenarios for myself – even if they weren’t strictly realistic or true – what was more important was that they were helpful to move me in the right direction. (I know its hard to stay on track!).
I am glad that you are getting to talk to therapist about this but I think that limerence can be about missing wider things than just romance? I think that it can be about validation, being ‘seen and heard’ in general, not just romantically. Or it could be about something completely different – a simple escape from life’s harsh realities? Thinking about these things with the help of a therapist might help?
I am so glad to hear from you, that you’re still plugging away at this, in such a positive direction.
You made a great point actually J. I watched a video from a marriage counselor where he stated that one of the most reoccurring signs or predictor of a marriage failing or at the best in constant conflict is unmet needs by one or both partners.
And like you stated in your post you realize that had sway on you in falling for your LO. Me too. 22 years married, at the time, we’d settled into a fairly “safe” routine in our marriage. We were focusing in on our two boys, one at the time ready to step out into the world as an adult. Which means it was easy for us to take each other for granted. Whether it was necessarily intentional on either of us’ part or subconsciously I can’t say.
LO filled that void by just being her. It’s not that she was ONLY grateful to me when we worked together and not anyone else. But that’s how I saw it. That gratitude and “thank you’s” I couldn’t get enough of. But instead of speaking about my unmet needs to my wife I just kept letting LO be that person to me. Because it was easier and more intoxicating coming from her than wagering whether or not talking to my wife about it would turn into a heated conflict. And that reluctance to do so turned into my wife suspicions that LO and I were having an affair. Which turned into even more heated and repeated conflicts. Avoiding one conflict led to something that to this day 4 years later is still somewhat unresolved.
Great insight, J! What are you going to do about it?
Hello all… I have what is to me a serious question, but the preamble is going to sound weirdly like showing off how lucky I am…. I will try to be brief…. and there is a question at the end.
Met LO at work about 18 months ago, Limerent about 4 or 5 months. She is happily married, no kids, mid thirties. I am married, happily, grown kids, I am mid sixties.
We have grown into a very close friendship, lots of texting, appropriately affectionate emojis, daily walks alone over lunch break, appropriate touches / occasional nice hugs ( I managed to teach her what types of hugs I like… full body, and NOT one of those pat-on-back hugs, more tight ), lovely conversations about things like her upbringing, life issues, politics, etc . I have gotten to know her very well
I have told her I love her, as a friend, which she accepts. I explained to her she gives me dopamine hits
We have set some helpful workplace boundaries ( no visits to her desk, etc )
I am indeed Limerent for my LO, and of course I CRAVE her company, and I feel almost constant pain without her ( except on the walks, or nice texting )…. at times it has been HORRIBLE ( it hurts even now, after a very nice walk and chat today and lovely texting )
I desire nothing romantic, but yes to being her friend and emotionally connected that way
But… I am managing, and I think getting better ( with the help of quite frequent hits from my drug , LO )
My serious question is… I want the LE pain to cease, but really really want to stay friends with her
Has anyone else her managed to drop the LE, and keep LO as a close friend? Or am just wishful thinking this?
Thanks in advance
Hi New_To_Limerence,
I have been here at LwL for a while and I think the consensus seems to be that its rare to maintain a close friendship while getting over limerence. For some folks it seems like once their limerent feelings fade to the point that they can behave normally around their LO, a few things happen – most often they lose interest in LO and have no longer a deep desire for close friendship (this has been described by several posters). Another outcome seems to be that the limerent realises that they can’t be friends, for their own sake and that recovery from the cravings and feelings of despair in the late stages of limerence drive them to forcibly disengage – also known as going No Contact (NC). By my reckoning, maybe a third of posters (or maybe more) are in this category. Also, some of the latter group have had serial limerences where previous ‘old’ LOs are now in the first category, with little or no daily relevance / friendship in the limerent’s life. This takes time, of course.
In the third group, several posters, myself included, opt for Low Contact (LC) because of circumstances – LO works with us so we can’t entirely disengage but we realise that we need to be vigilant about crossing boundaries which lead back to the despair and cravings (see above). By definition, this necessitates limiting the friendship and intimacy. So, all in all, friendship with an LO seems to be a rare ‘unicorn’ event, particularly close friendship, although Mila has one LO who she is close friends with, so maybe she can offer you hope.
I have to say that I think you are walking a very dangerous path with your LO, what you describe seems over the top even in a normal friendship. If I recall, your LO is a work colleague and I am pretty sure that most workplaces would be very disapproving of so many hugs, even if they are entirely innocent. I know that you have squared this off to some extent with your SO, so you have perhaps anticipated downsides of this limerent event. However another nightmare scenario could arise and possibly should be considered and pre-empted. The modern workplace can be quite unforgiving and imagine how it would be if LO wakes up one morning and decides you are harassing her (somehow). Even if you trust her completely and think it unlikely, I have read from other posters about their LO suddenly getting freaked out or going ‘cold’ on them. One of our most eminent posters, Limerent Emeritus has warned of LOs going “off script” and I think that its something that all people in the throes of limerence should consider because it is an ‘altered state’ and we are not behaving in any way normal around LO. That’s dangerous in the workplace from the point of view of reputations (yours and hers).
Your descriptions of what you are going through sound truly awful. Have you seen Dr L’s video about the 5 stages of limerence? The fourth stage is when it becomes so unbearable that the limerent decides to take control. Here is a link to the video, if you have not seen it, I think its well worth a look
https://youtu.be/WSvh9O44IB8?feature=shared
The good news is that there is a fifth stage known as ‘recovery’ in that video, which I have actually experienc3d myself, so I know that it’s true. But it takes a lot of work on one’s self to get there.
„, although Mila has one LO who she is close friends with, so maybe she can offer you hope.“
Ah, well. I mean, I’m still friends with my last LO. But I think the crux is with the term „close friend“. How do you/I define it? I think when I was still limerent , but already acknowledging that there won’t be any romantic thing happening, there was some future vision of a close friend who is my soulmate, with whom I have a special bond and share all my woes/thoughts etc etc.
But now that limerence is gone, I realize that my XLO isn’t quite the soulmate I believed when I was limerent.
He‘s still a decent guy and I like him very much, but this kind of close friendship isn’t possible with him.
And before I was able to come back to normal friendly feelings, I had to go through a phase of anger and grief.
Also, my case/XLO is somewhat special.
The reason why XLO cannot be a real close friend to me is paradoxically the reason why we can still be friends.
Another guy would have either gone „off script“, trying something more than friendship , or would have been confused and have had enough of me sometimes being clingy, sometimes angry etc.
He‘s a neurodivergent, very loyal and stubborn person, not attuned to other persons needs or moods, and that kind of saved the friendship, I guess. Although it also means we are not close friends, which was my initial goal when I was trying to end my limerence.
I guess what I also want to say is, it’s hard for me to believe one can get rid of limerence while maintaining that kind of flirty and close friendship you are describing.
I think our definition of friendship is somewhat skewered when limerent. A normal friendship isn’t that needy, heady stuff, as much as we would like to keep our conscience down by stating that it’s only friendship and nothing more.
Mila,
“I think our definition of friendship is somewhat skewered when limerent.”
I don’t normally venture into language correction for the ESL speakers, but this one actually is very funny. I think you want the word ‘skewed’. But the idea of our definition of friendship being ‘skewered’ is much more amusing!
Mila…
I really appreciate your input and experience with this
Yes, I am very aware my thoughts on this friendship are ‘confused’ by Limerence
I anticipate in the future… her leaving for a new job, and as most ( especially work place ) friendships evolve when distance happens… she will move on and it will fade… and I MAY suffer for a while . I think I will miss her a lot… I still miss the Foster daughter we lost ( I NOW think I was father /daughter Limerent for her too, as I look back on it )
I think, no…. I am sure… the Limerence is fading , the suffering when without her is diminishing, and the highs when with her seems a bit less high. Of course, this could be a lie I am telling myself, as I have a lot of access ( that sounds… not nice ) to her and so I can stay pretty stable
Or maybe Bewitched meant LO2?
I‘m friends with LO2, but not close. Close in the sense that every time we meet, we both enjoy it a lot and can talk about everything and feel as close and important for each other as possible. There’s a special meaning that each has for the other.
But we meet maybe twice a year now, since he left work, and there’s little contact in between. That doesn’t change the close feeling somehow, but still, we meet and speak rarely, and I think that’s the reason we can maintain friendship without veering into limerence again.
Yes Mila,
I did mean LO2. Thank you for spelling that out as I think it is quite unusual and I am happy that this is possible, in theory. I think it does still require a certain level of disengagement to make it possible though? And time. Always lots of time. 🙂
Hi Bewitched,
yes, I think it needed space and time, and I transferred to XLO at some point back then.
But I think we would have managed without transference too, because we really appreciate and respect each other outside of any romantic stuff.
But without LO2 being how he is, this wouldn’t have gone so well.
In my case, I have to say that all LOs had to help me, by keeping a distance, or by being respectful and consistent etc. But then, I wouldn’t have been limerent if they wouldn’t be persons like that, I guess.
Mila,
“all LOs had to help me, by keeping a distance, or by being respectful and consistent etc.”
Apologies if I’ve asked this before, but did you or LO2 disclose? I’m interested if he ‘just knew’ that being respectful and consistent (and I presume by this you mean reducing the limerence-triggers) was the right thing to do, or whether it needed disclosure.
I feel like both my LO and I now ‘know’ the need for more respectful distance and why, but without direct disclosure – and are trying to give that. I’m trying to just be OK with that new normal (friendly but more distantly and appropriately), and not take myself down the false “she must not like me” rumination loop. I am doing Ok with it but the loop sits in the back of my head.
You and I used to talk about how we hoped the friendships with your LO3 and my LO might head down similar paths. But I now think your LO2 (more than your LO3) is like my LO’s character type, so that’s more of a template to follow.
“But then, I wouldn’t have been limerent if they wouldn’t be persons like that, I guess.”
That’s true – it is not by fluke that our LOs are ‘selected’ as LOs. Helps you know what to watch for in future too!
Hi LaR,
no disclosure with LO2, but I think I leaked a lot and he knew, and I also knew that he- well, I’m not sure if he can be limerent, but I’m very very sure that he was very much attracted and interested, but he‘s much younger and I‘m married – he ruled anything happening out from the beginning, I’m sure. He was single and looking for someone, and he‘s quite pragmatic and principled there, he would never consider leading me into an affair, for my own good, and also he wasn’t looking for an affair but something serious with potential for family etc. But two or three times at late nights when a bit drunk he more or less told me that I‘m his absolute ideal and that his girlfriend had a problem with me for a reason etc.
But whenever there was danger in the air like being alone together etc, I felt him keeping a deliberate smiling distance. I think he put me on a pedestal and would rather go away than endangering my family, and I do respect him for that.
But he wasn’t the consistent one, (with that I meant XLO who was always consistent in contact and wanting to be friends) – LO2 was getting close and then pulling away like hell, very painful. I also , like you, had the „he must not like me“ moments, but now I know that’s not true.
Don’t forget that your LO might not be from the limerence tribe, so it’s much easier for her to be rational and accept some things (like your marriage, or that more distance is required) without suffering like we do. Which doesn’t mean she doesn’t care.
I had to laugh when you said your LO is like my LO2- you would have to see and get to know him, there‘s actually no one like him. He‘s an extrovert and sometimes quite exhausting person from another country, very quicksilvery, talented and extremely funny, sometimes not voluntarily. (you see, I do like him a lot).
He can be extremely egotistical and I don’t hope your LO is like that.
Funnily enough ‘extrovert’ and ‘exhausting’ do apply here too. ‘Egotistical’ – she can come across like that, but the more I know her, the more I see that’s a self-defence cover up (not lim-brain talking there but analysis of a lot of evidence).
All you have said about his behaviours around the limerence (maybe not from that tribe, but a lot of push-pull, occasional drunk texts – both of us at my end have been guilty of that – , but moralistic and wouldn’t contemplate trying to break a marriage) chime a lot too. The last one is probably quite crucial here.
So you see there are indeed similarities, whereas your LO3 sounds very different indeed. All I really meant was you and LO2 could be the better template (of the two) for me re navigating out of LE to friendship.
I keep successfully silencing that nagging voice (my rational side helps here) but then it pops back up from time to time and needs hitting back down again.
Hi LaR,
yes, they might have similarities!
The thing is, my LO2 left work and moved away. Not as far as XLO, but he‘s still not around. I don’t know how it might have panned out for this LE if he would have stayed.
But I guess at some point he still would have found a SO and I even would have managed to be at the same or similar stage as we are now, only much later, I‘m afraid.
Don’t you think that your LO , if she‘s like my LO2-extrovert, fun, with morals and determined- she will sooner or later find a SO, and that might change the situation significantly?
I might add that my LO2 got himself a SO while still being my colleague (the one he referred to once as having had a problem with us being friends), and it didn’t really end the LE. But she wasn’t the one for him and somehow I guessed as much anyway. His current SO is a much better fit and I can wholeheartedly wish them best of luck with their newly founded family.
Still, all that goodwill is much easier now that they are not in my day to day life….
By the way, I forgot about your remark about „skewered“😂of course I meant skewed!
Mila,
Yes, it is a whole other beast trying to navigate and renegotiate it while the LO is still around, but I’m working hard at it.
“Don’t you think that your LO … will sooner or later find a SO, and that might change the situation significantly?”
She should do, but she’s very picky and the extroversion is a bit of a front. I honestly hope she does, as I’d like her to be happy (I think it is progress for me that I can genuinely say that). An SO for her may hasten the end of the LE, but I do feel it really tailing off naturally now. I think it just ran its course. And despite the tiredness, issue that is a real relief.
I’m now more dealing with questions about how I got myself there, how real the ‘friendship’ was/is, and how to play my part in moving forward with that so it works for both people but without me getting back to feeling limerent for her … and wondering if that’s all even possible! Time will tell …
Hope you enjoy your weekend 😊
Hi LaR,
you definitely sound sobered up. Do you feel that your perception of your LO and the friendship you‘ve got has changed too, like in my case? I find it difficult to see which is the „real“ perspective. I guess reality is changeable too. I try to go with what seems to be best for me.
Mila,
There was a specific chat and its aftermath that caused a sobering up. Something changed on her side too – I think it links to what I said to you when we were recently discussing your LO2 and their character similarities.
So, like you, I have a good bank of pre-LE friendship years to draw on. I know what the ‘old’ friendship was like but don’t feel we can just pivot straight back to it. I can now see the LE version of the ‘friendship’ for what it was – an overblown rose-tinted vision with much more (for me) wrapped up in it than proper friendship. And I can see (as I always kind of could) that it wasn’t sustainable at that level in my circumstances. As black and white as it sounds, it had to reduce for my sanity and for mine and SO’s sake; I think LO knew that and we’ve both let a lot of air out of the tyres.
I feel some irritation now at LO’s worse sides (I can see them where before I couldn’t), but not all the time and not so much that they outweigh what I like in her. I wonder how that will evolvr.
I guess the question is – and maybe this chimes with you? – with the false limerent side of the friendship gone and deliberate removal of any ‘provocations’ – what is left? Is it just a close coworker thing? Or what version of friendship beyond that, if any, can we have that doesn’t drag me back to limerence? Can I ever be ‘detached’ enough to socialise LO with SO and thus make her a more authentic part of my real life, not a fantasy second life?
These are the sort of thorny questions I’m grappling with. And like I said to you many times about your LExit, I think they will take a while and some patience to figure out.
How are things with LO3 and you now?
Hi LaR,
that sounds all very familiar indeed. I still think that your LO not being a neurodivergent person who cannot cope with emotions like mine, might help to keep your friendship on a less superficial level than the level I’ve decided to keep mine on.
Things with LO3, well, I’m not sure. I had to cancel this dinner at our place with his family and it was a good thing too, because I really didn’t want to have that dinner, and I was able to develop friendlier feelings for him afterwards. Less contact seems to mean friendlier feelings from my side.
He sent me a birthday gift and I managed to appreciate it even though it showed again how he manages to just miss the point about what I like. We even had a pleasant longish phone chat (with his SO listening in since they were driving).
But now we are again back to the new awkward texting rhythm of him always initiating, me answering and him strangely not answering back, and me not doing anything until he initiates again.
While I don’t feel resentment any longer, I don’t feel like texting him either. We are not at a natural rhythm like I have with other friends.
We‘ll have a long business trip coming up in a couple of months with at least one week working together before here, and I‘m not sure how I want that to play out. Usually we spend a lot of time together on these trips. Sometimes I think that will be ok and sometimes I think I will try to reduce that. I guess I will cross that bridge when I come to it.
Maybe that’s also the way for you- just see where life is going. I mean, a close co-worker thing is still a great and rare thing to have, isn’t it? And maybe at some point you could just arrange SO and her to meet casually and see how you feel about it, it might show you that it’s ok, or not.
There’s no pressure now, maybe just take it slow and focus on your well-being.
Your LaR- pampering with duvets, Netflix, nature sounds like heaven to me…
I’ve been thinking about how to respond to your question, New_To_Limerence. I think Bewitched and Mila covered it well.
I’m so sorry, but you remind me of a drug addict who asks the question, “Can I enjoy all the benefits of my drug without the side effects?”
Of course you can’t.
But that isn’t the question you asked. Your question was,
“ Has anyone else here managed to drop the LE, and keep LO as a close friend? Or am I just wishful thinking this?”
Below, I shared the two people who have come closest to what you described (at least I think these two are the best examples to answer your question).
Lost in Space maintains a close relationship with his LO which he admits is an emotional affair, so I wouldn’t say that he “dropped the LE.” Mila continues to have contact with her past LOs. She seems to have “dropped the LE” but she doesn’t seem to have a “close friendship” with her previous LOs. I don’t think that she is getting dopamine highs from her previous LOs.
I think you will find that you can’t have both a close friendship and recovery from the LE. I think you are playing with fire.
I recognize that your LE is very unusual because you seem to have a father/daughter closeness at the core instead of potential mate closeness. Regardless of what is driving your impulses, your LO is still your drug of choice. She is a drug. Drugs have side effects.
thank you all for the pretty much “reality check” responses
I admit I am not the most clear headed judge of all this… and yes, I do want the drug without the side effects, please and thanks
I DO feel the Limerence , both highs and lows, is levelling out, at the same time our closeness as friends is strong. Given where she is from, it is highly likely that I am the first male she has gotten close to as a friend who is not a her spouse or a relative
Regarding the workplace… our HR would I think not care ( unless others seeing us complained ) and of course she could go ” off script” , which could get very messy
It is I am sure obvious to most of our coworkers that we are close, but we try to control some of the optics ( no desk visits, and meeting up in the lobby for our walks, etc ) but of course this just makes it more secret-y, and isnt I think fooling anyone at work
Absolutely NO potential mate desires…. much more father / daughter
All in all, I am planning to enjoy her company, wait out the LE pain, and with the likelihood that she will get another job in a year or so… so at that point… NC…. I will then really miss her, but kids grow up and move out ( yeah, she is not a kid, or even MY child, but I have already lost 1 ” daughter ” , and that hurt a lot )
Bewitched… thanks, I will watch that video, appreciated. I cannot imagine at all losing interest in LO or not wanting to be her friend
I do feel the LE is lessening , maybe due to our f/d friendship, and NO romantic desires… really for me the Glimmer was just seeing how special and wonderful she is!
You made your choice, New_To_Limerence. You are going into this with open eyes. Good luck! Please keep us posted. We can learn from your experiences. Your situation is unique and interesting.
By the way, you can change course at any time.
I am so glad you posted this. I am struggling with something similar. I am 72 and have a crush on a 66 year old gay neighbor. I told him right up front that I had a crush on him, and he was unfazed. He said we could still be friends.
I am finding that somewhat difficult, though, because of our differing definitions of what “friend” means. He is in a high-end, high-power job, and I am retired/disabled. I have way more free time on my hands and so it has not been working out very well.
He seems to like me fine and enjoys our time together. But it is unsatisfactory for me and I am trying to go No Contact. I do run into him periodically, however, and every time I see him, my resolve weakens.
So I can’t really answer your question; it seems like you have a more compatible and stable relationship with your LO than I do. I think I would love being able to go on walks and spend some time texting, as you do.
Please keep posting. I am so pleased to see someone in a similar situation, although I am not pleased about the pain we are going through.
Hello Norma
I have to say… yours sounds very painful, without the relief I can get
If I may may ask ( sorry to be blunt ) you are a female? He is a gay male?
How much time do you get to interact with him? Do you both enjoy the time?
Yes, I am a divorced woman who was not looking for a romance. I was devastated by a scorched-earth divorce about 20 years ago. I have not had any interest in dating. This crush on my neighbor came out of left field. We both seem to enjoy the time together, although I enjoy it more. I get the feeling that he wouldn’t be devastated without it, whereas I am more dependent.
The power imbalance is what makes me uneasy and is why I am trying to go NC.
I did want to add that my LO gives world-class hugs. He is tall and thin, and when he hugs me, it feels like he has a thousand ribs. I find this thrilling for some reason. Like hugging a really appealing skeleton.
I don’t think I have ever enjoyed hugging anyone more, including my own children.
N2L
I can feel you on the “daughter” vibes. A good man wants to protect and preside over the women in his life that he cares about. The rescue complex is …. well complex. I don’t remember if you mentioned the age difference with your LO but LO and I were about 15 years apart. Then throw in meeting and getting to know LO’s daughter and I might as well have just put my own head in the noose.
Me: “Damn that girl can text fast.” *smile*
LO: “She’s probably talking to her boyfriend?”
Me: “Boyfriend?”
LO: “Yes Adam, boyfriend.”
Me: “No offense to your parenting, since I never had a daughter, but I don’t like it.”
LO: “Adam it is normal for 15 year olds to have boyfriends and girlfriends.”
Me: “Yeah well I still don’t trust him.”
LO: “You’re worried?”
Me: “She may not be my blood daughter but I’ll be damned if I ain’t gonna treat her like she is.”
LO: “I wish her own father was as concerned about her life as you are.”
God that last one hit me in the feels. After that I just admitted defeat. I was hoping for a daughter both times my wife was pregnant. I love our boys despite wanting a daughter. And LO let me into her life enough that her daughter was the closest thing I had to my own. God to think that 15 year old little girl is now a 20 year old young lady …. *gets out the shotgun and salt rounds* Excuse me, I have somewhere to be.
Adam,
If I were a boy, I would not get my FIRST cptsd from Mom/parent, and got into a perpetual, futile surrogate-parent search from all previous crushes/LOs and this “celestial” LE
One always irrationally dreams/desires what one did/does not have, for me, a bosom sibling/friend or a secure and all-ear parent….
Snow…
“One always irrationally dreams/desires what one did/does not have, for me, a bosom sibling/friend or a secure and all-ear parent….”
that does not sound irrational to me at all. I too desire a bosom friendship, and I think almost everyone does
“I was hoping for a daughter both times my wife was pregnant. I love our boys despite wanting a daughter.”
@Adam,
It was way harder having a Daughter with all her moods, drama and attitude. I love her to death, but maaaan the girl knows exactly how to bite and how to make it hurt. I give her the credit and my Ex who probably instilled a lot of that in her.
My Daughter has a belief now she will never marry anyone because of the chaos her Mother and I got into with each other. I’m learning to accept things, in the way life is turning out for me but must also admit I am very sad and regretful about it..
If you think your one Son won’t forgive you for your LO wranglings, just imagine how your Daughter would have felt? (Magnify your Son’s resentment X 10 and maybe then some..)
Lol MJ. LO would say the same whenever I would say I wanted a daughter. “I raised two Adam no you don’t.” And Momma says “It’s a good thing we didn’t you’d spoil the hell out of her.” All three of you are probably right. Probably best we had two boys.
And you are probably right about that too. It seems as long as it is a lingering issue between us it will be for him too. He really mirrors his mother in emotions.
I know our situations in life are quite different but I can somewhat feel the same about regrets. I have more than just limerence to atone for. But I guess I’ll try to concentrate on the future and being better than past me.
Lovisa –
“You made your choice, New_To_Limerence. You are going into this with open eyes. Good luck! Please keep us posted. We can learn from your experiences. Your situation is unique and interesting.
By the way, you can change course at any time.” Yes, it is my course to steer
Yes, as far as I have read here, my situation seems pretty unique. Thirty year age age gap, NO romantic feelings, a great LO, close friends, etc
The common factor to what seems like everyone else here… the horrible painful cravings for her company and attention…. the awful feeling of having your mind taken over by the need for LO and … before I found out about Limerence about 2 months ago… I really thought I was actually losing my mind! It was scary
I TRY to use 3 simple rules
1) Your life is your OWN responsibility
2) Your inner voice is ALWAYS right ( at least mine is… but I don’t always listen )
3) RELAX
I use one or more of these in most situations
I use all 3 in this painful LE
That is a good list of personal standards. Please consider adding my personal standard to your list
Do the right thing no matter how you feel.
It gets me through tough moments.
I was thinking about your relationship with your LO. I keep thinking this is going to end painfully for you. I guess that most significant relationships end painfully and it would be a shame to miss out on closeness with another person just because you don’t want it to end painfully.
I really am cheering for you. It sounds like I’m not, but I am. I recognize that your LE is benefiting you and your LO in many ways. I’m just very concerned about the side effects. I’m concerned about both the side effects that you have already identified as well as the side effects that you don’t know about.
Neither of us can predict the future so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
Lovisa… I really appreciate your viewpoints on this, thanks
Yes, I think we are both benefitting a lot… she knows about my love for her as a friend and that she is a dopamine hit for me… she seems to understand
Yes, even without limerence, losing her as a close, seeing all the time friend will hurt
And yes… side effects , especially the scary!! ones I dont know about yet 🙁
” Do the right thing no matter how you feel. ” Thanks, I will add this to the list.
Lovisa…
“I guess that most significant relationships end painfully and it would be a shame to miss out on closeness with another person just because you don’t want it to end painfully.”
Thanks for saying this
Exactly as I feel… the pain for me would be a small price for having had that wonderful close relationship with another person
We don’t get many of these in our lives
New here, fairly new to knowing what limerence is and accepting that I have it.
I do have an OCD diagnosis, have done a lot of research on OCD and have done therapy for OCD. I see a LOT in common between the two, but there are some key differences as well that make me think limerence is not quite a subset of OCD. For one thing, OCD obsessions are NEVER pleasant. But one of the hard parts for me is the interplay between OCD and limerence. For example, the sense of hyper-responsibility that comes with OCD, which kind of brings me to where I am now.
I am married and have come to realize I have been limerent for a married man. He is in charge of a program I volunteer with. He’s the one who initially invited me to volunteer. I’ve been working with him since 2022. The glimmer was pretty immediate and I’ve kind of been trying to work around the truth since then.
Recently it all came crashing down rather spectacularly. He made a (I think, real) leadership mistake that made me feel left out. But my reaction (without him knowing the full context) seemed disproportionate. Ultimately I told him I was quitting (because I knew in my heart what was really happening and I was tired of the anxiety trying to keep everyone else in the dark). I am talented at what I do and seemed to everyone to be super invested in it (haha!), so obviously he was wondering why it all came crashing down over a small oversight.
Even without researching I felt in my gut that I absolutely could not disclose all of what was going on with me. However, we kept kind of dancing around and wanting to talk it through, and trying to make it work (he was very distraught to the point of tears about my leaving), and in one of our calls I kind of “went there.” I said I thought I enjoyed being around my friend who uplifted me as much as anything, and I wanted to make sure I was volunteering for the right reasons. He said, “Ah. So that’s the root of it.” I think he had kind of sensed that already.
I didn’t say anything about love, romance, or anything like that, strictly using the word friend. I know that’s not the whole truth, and it has never been a real friendship, but have always wanted to be careful even as I’ve been selfish. Having read more on this site about disclosure, I am feeling absolutely sick about this whole thing. I would be devastated if I have jeopardized his marriage by disclosing too much. Maybe this deep concern is still the limerence talking, or maybe the OCD. Of course, it’s possible that I jeopardized the marriage well before this anyway by being very obviously more “dedicated” than other volunteers. There was never any explicitly romantic line crossed; we only talked about work-related topics, never flirted…but mentally/emotionally I was smitten. I understand now that “talking things through” is a very very bad idea and will stay away.
I feel so much shame and guilt. I always knew that letting it get to formal affair territory (whether emotional or physical) would nuke our lives, but now I’m realizing how powerful and damaging limerence alone can be.
@LimerentJane
Maybe I am misunderstanding here, but it sounds like you’re more concerned about his marriage than you are about yours.
The fact that you were honest about your situation (or, as honest as you felt you could be, to him!) is commendable. To me, it sounds like you have done nothing to jeopardize his marriage, because this: It is HIS marriage. And yes, while you are there, it is his choice what he does in his own marriage. If anyone is going to jeopardize his marriage, it is him, and whomever his spouse is. Those are the only two people who can jeopardize that marriage.
You, on the other hand, may be compromising your own marriage. And maybe that’s ok. Maybe it’s time. I don’t know, I don’t know your situation. But, I will say that limerence happens for a reason. If he asked you to volunteer, and to give your talents to a cause where you would be valued, that is huge. I would, from the outside, wonder….do you feel seen and valued, in your marriage?
And, do you feel your contributions, in your marriage, and to the world, are seen by your own spouse.
That would be what I would really wonder. It sounds like your LO can take care of himself. I would not worry you are at fault, just that you may have things in your own life to handle, that are your responsibility, and yours alone.
I make these observations with care, from my own life. I have similar issues. I am not perfect, I am a hugely dramatic, flailing, blatant limerent, at this moment. 🙂 These things can be hard to hear…and feel critical. I say these things to maybe help your guilt around what is happening to HIM, and help you see what you can do, within, to help your self.
With care, CSC
Thank you so much, CSC.
Well, that is not something one wants to hear, and yet I think you have a good point.
I do think to some extent this is where OCD overlaps a bit. OCD makes it all too easy to catastrophize and become convinced you’ve done something horribly, terribly wrong for real, when in reality you’ve only been dealing with thoughts. I’ve met this man’s wife (wonderful person) and have tried to form a friendship with her (though that hasn’t really panned out), so the worry is exacerbated. Throughout my limerence I had so much anxiety that she or others would suspect something untoward of me, and that’s been hard. You’d think that would have led me out of limerence sooner, but it’s sneaky how your mind tries to justify and cling to it because you need that “rise.”
But to your original point…yes. Certainly my own marriage is on my mind, but perhaps not yet enough. I’ve been absolutely sick thinking about how I’ve hurt my own husband as well. But I also have a comfort level with him that I think it will be OK. He knows all about my OCD and what that looks like. I haven’t disclosed the true nature of this situation to him–as far as I know he thinks I quit because I didn’t feel appreciated, which was partly true–and he’s been my rock through this. Even so, I think there’s been an element (prior to this breakdown) of taking him for granted and just trusting he’ll always be understanding and there, instead of investing in my marriage.
So, post breakdown I have really been trying to focus on my own family and I’ve been talking a LOT more with my husband, and that feels good. Hopefully I get to a place where I can forget about the limerence and feel like I’m being genuine and not just trying to compensate (although I will say that aspect is MUCH better now that I’ve faced reality). We have our issues…he’s a man of few words, and I have a strong need for affirmation and someone to talk to. I know full well that’s where my LO came in–he’s amazing in that way. But the need for affirmation and a (non-LO) friend to talk to is, at the end of the day, a me problem to work on. I realize that.
Thank you for your insight–you’ve helped me feel better. I am being over-responsible again, and I see lingering limerence in my concern for HIS marriage. Whew. What a mess. Grateful for what I’m learning, though.
CSC, you seem very wise, and so a question if you don’t mind based on your previous response:
Do you think I was correct to quit volunteering with/for LO altogether? Does that need to be a forever decision? I’m conflicted about whether or not I overreacted. It is clear to me (and him) that I need time away at the very least, and that is the plan I am sticking to for the foreseeable future.
Hi LimerentJane,
I’m not wise, just experienced. Many here are veterans of multiple limerences…not a club one wants to be a member of, but here we are! 🙂
Yes, I actually do think you were correct to do as much as you can to distance yourself. I am NOT an expert, but in trying to help myself, I know going no contact helps.
You will not help yourself by becoming friends with his wife. You will not help yourself by further exposure to a situation if it disregulates you and makes you doubt yourself. You are actually taking yourself FURTHER from yourself when you put yourself in the path of LO.
Yes, you need some time away. It sounds like you have a lot in your life that you enjoy – but this LE has blown you off course. You can get back to your good feelings, your trust in yourself, and your life.
I know to others cutting off your volunteering may seem drastic (I can hear them saying…you’re denying the world the good you can do, so you can recover from a crush?” but no…if you are limerent for this man, it is not a crush. It’s much, much more.
So, do not worry that you overreacted. Some part of you knew what it was doing. Trust that part. I think you knew it had gone too far, you were very at risk, and you did the right thing.
Be strong. Sometimes we slip up. Sometimes we go back, feeling like we are ok. It happens. If it does, just forgive yourself and try to pick back up again.
IDK if you are aware of Following Fenna on youtube? Her talks have been hugely helpful for me. Given that our situations are somewhat similar in tone — I’m putting a link here.
https://www.youtube.com/@followingfenna/videos
🙂 CSC
“LOVE IS NOT SOMETHING YOU DO, IT’S SOMETHING YOU ARE.”
– CARL JUNG-
https://youtu.be/BPJft_kcFkc?si=biG_95QaiEjFKWiP — No One Will Love You Until You Understand This — Carl Jung
After 📖 🪟, 🆔 still 🎒 (have) a 🖖 (long) 🛣️ 🛣️ to 🚶🏻♀️& 🧗🏻♀️…
I just ran into LO at Starbucks after a record SEVEN days of No Contact. He hugged me and I felt wonderful. I think I am addicted to the physical contact maybe more than the conversation. When he wraps his long skinny arms around me, I feel safe somehow, although of course this is an illusion. I don’t understand how or why he makes me feel safe when we don’t have that kind of relationship.
Hi Norma,
From what you say, after the 7 days, it sounds like you have kind of a new perspective forming…that it is the physical touch. You mentioned this twice (once, with your beautiful, eerie writing about how his ribs…I should not encourage you, but I realllly loved that image, fantastic writing and idea…)
Anyway – as I was saying…:) it sounds like NC (even if it was interrupted today by your unexpected meeting) has given you a different observation…that’s a gift!
I would encourage you to find other ways you might begin to meet this physical need. I know you have a health/mobility concern, but I wonder…might you consider going to some kind of social group, where you might get hugs?
I know, I know this sounds crazy. But I personally go to a group where people do give hugs. I go to a running group, and people there are very kind, accepting. I have met friends there who now hug me. For me, a need is also to see that my enthusiasm and energy resonate with others (my SO is very taciturn to the point I often wonder if he knows I’m there at all). And, my friends meet that need for me, it helps. Prior to that, I was getting a lot of social affirmation from…yes…LO. oops. 🙂
IDK where you are, or if you have faith, but…I grew up Unitarian. It’s a weird, very accepting Christian denomination. Many artists, many intellectuals. Or, a faith of your choice. Not necessarily for God. For…compassion and hugs. Just an idea.
Honestly tho, it could be anything. Volunteering, playing cards, gardening. Anything. I have found that people who volunteer and people who go to meetups are often grand, they have put their self-consciousness aside, and are really just there because…they need people too.
Just an idea. But, beyond that – more importantly. I’m focused on the positive about how much perspective you’ve gained in NC. lovely job, Norma. I think I understand how painful this has been for you, from my own life, which has also been very difficult in limerence.
I’d be interested to hear more about how you feel, once you get a chance to come down from what I’m sure was a very intense moment for you.
xo (and a big hug…i am a beanpole, so i hope it’d meet approval!) csc
CSC…
This is one of the most real and needed post I have read… full of great ideas!
I know this was not specifically aimed at me… but it was a lovely, and I think needed message for many of us. HUGS and so good for us!
I don’t think many ( most? ) of us humans get enough real, genuine physical contact… and a hug is SOOO awesome… I really only hug now my wife and kids ( and LO ) but the contact is so needed. It is WAY more important than people think it is….
As an aside… my SO has begun a wonderful new habit of giving me long affectionate hugs and a kiss when I come home , and before I go to bed ( I go much earlier than her, she likes to stay up late )… I love it!
Thanks NTL 🙂
Yeah, hugs are so important. Physical contact it’s important!
In our grown-up, modern world, we have created such isolation. In most of our routines, in the way we entertain ourselves…it is so easy to go without, and not even realize it’s happened. But it does take a toll.
Your SO sounds like she has got the right idea. I am glad you appreciate her efforts.
It’s funny, where I live, there is a guy who sets up in the subway with a sign that says “Free Hugs”. A tall, strong, gorgeous man, with gorgeous long dreadlocks and a big smile. He has a great, healthy energy. Like a sun. He will give incredible, going-back-to-mama-style hugs if anyone needs one. I don’t see him often, but when they are there, I usually make sure they get to do his work! 🙂 And I know he does it because he believes in that power. It’s a lovely gift to people, if they are willing to take a little step outside their comfort zone or routine.
Oops when ** when he is there, I usually make sure he gets to do his work**!
To CSC:
I do have a few girlfriends that I hug, but nothing is the same as the wonderful skeleton-hugs from LO. I have also been kissing him on the neck, which he is fine with. He is so tall, he has to bend down like a giraffe so I can reach.
The physical touch of LO is absolutely electrifying, and while I appreciate and love hugs from others, all I want is LO.
To all…
I do NOT know how you all cope with the pain of Limerence
I have a great LO, very close friends, almost daily walks and frequent nice texts… and I STILL am in pain without her presence.
Example… yesterday… great long lunch walk alone with her ( we always walk alone… we have talked about other joining us, neither of us want that! ) and nice messages throughout the work day. But… I took today off, and knew I would suffer through 3 days without her. At 10:15 last night… a message from her, a lovely video of her homeland. Oh my 🙂 🙂 🙂 !!! I had gone to bed in pain, and then!!! I was over the top in happiness, and could sleep in peace! She almost never messages after work, and so late. Bonus for me!
Today, more nice messages ( I thought she would not message me when I was off /at home )! Happiness!
And now, the pain starts again… 2 more days without her
Really, without having contact with LO, how do you all manage? How will I manage when she leaves ? 🙁 🙁 I hope the limerence is gone by then
I have a question for you. Does your LO understand how much pain you are in when she is absent?
I have toyed with telling my LO a little about limerence. I have never used the word with him; all he knows is that I have a raging crush on him.
Norma…
I don’t think so… I think it would distress her to know, and make her feel weird, or that its her fault in some way. I keep the pain to myself.
I have never used the word Limerence either with her… I don’t really need to find out about its obsessive nature.
Thank said, I have told her I crave / and am drawn to seek her company, and I told her I get dopamine hits from her, which she understood… she is FAR from stupid, so… who knows? We do not discuss it at all since I disclosed that info… I think neither of us want to open that box! We dont want to rock the boat!
Thank you for that response.
I don’t think I will say anything further to LO. He says he is flattered by my crush, but it also makes him a bit uncomfortable. He says he doesn’t want to hurt me, but of course that ship has sailed. I keep most of my pain to myself, although he has yelled at me a few times, which makes me burst into tears.
He always apologizes profusely. I don’t like to discuss these episodes in depth, because although I am glad he takes responsibility for his bad behavior, I don’t want him to know how profoundly it affects me.
He is an irritable person, which in a way is a good thing, since it helps me keep my distance somewhat. He is not someone that I trust unconditionally. He’s somewhat flaky. I gave him a painting to get repaired two years ago, and I still have not gotten it back. The painting was repaired months ago, but he has not gotten around to picking it up. I am not comfortable showing him the full extent of my displeasure.
I find myself walking on eggshells around him, which was similar to what I experienced in my marriage, which was why I was never interested in dating again anyway. It’s too exhausting, always having to be hyper-vigilant, worrying that some innocent comment will send the other person into a rage.
At least in a marriage, I would get that hot make-up sex. When LO apologizes, I have to be satisfied with that.
NTL,
The pain is literally like an addict trying to stay off drugs each time. Often for us limerents, the pain is proportionate to the pleasure. So in your case, where you are having so much nice time together, this is ramping up the pain when you can’t have more of it. Limerents who don’t indulge so much in the ‘pleasure’ side, or even go LC/NC, will eventually not get so much pain (after an initial withdrawal period of high pain). It is like you are restarting the ‘drug withdrawal’ every time you spend time with her (get the dopamine) and then spend time apart (don’t get it). It is kind of a conscious choice you’re making.
LaR
Thanks for the reply…. yes, this has managed to explain it pretty clearly for me, appreciated… what I needed to hear, but not what I wanted to hear!
I was / am kinda hoping the pretty frequent and very pleasant contact with her would just “level me out”…. but, and as you and some others have written… its all sunshine when with her, but almost immediately that goes away and I HURT ( for me its anxiety and heart ache and general nervous system firing on high ) when not in contact. I do very feel like it as you said “restarts ” each time ( but I am much more stable… no crying fits for a few weeks now! )
I am willing to endure this for the pleasure I get from being her close friend, and her company. I dont feel as horrible as I used to… as long as I know how long I need to suffer, such as over a weekend.
As you said, a conscious decision on my part … until I am forced into NC when she leaves in a year or so
NTL,
I’m sorry if it was harsh medicine. I’m glad to hear you are in a bit more of a stable place and feeling like you’re managing better.
I just say try and look after yourself in other ways than getting all your ‘medicine’ from her – think that one day you may/will need to cope without it, and it sounds like that would be a big shock to the system. The hugs from SO sound good. Keep trying to nurture yourself in other ways too.
@ntl and @LaR
To help myself understand my limerence in a different way, I read a book by an alcoholic. A woman around my age…she had destroyed her life with drinking.
In that book, she quoted another alcoholic. This person was asked what it was like to be an alcoholic. The answer: “As if there was not enough gin in all the world.”
And that is what it is to be limerent, past the euphoria stage. You are hooked, it will never be enough. No matter how much, or how little, it does not satisfy.
That is why it is so important to find a way out. It is not a livable situation. I am not saying there is only *one* way out. But, it is important to understand the danger— a need like that must be seen with the clearest eye possible, and taken very seriously.
CSC
CSC and LaR
thanks for your inputs. LaR, I saw it as not harsh, but reality, which I could use!
I am starting to play my guitar again, after months of not playing at all.
The SO hugs are awesome, and sooth my nerves.
CSC… as to the gin… I have felt often that there was ” not enough of my LO “, that I would greedily and stupidly want 24/7 access to her company!
And I am taking the LE and the danger, as you say, very seriously.
CSC and LaR
I just need to release some nerves on here.
I am not so much hurting today ( although I am in pain, yes, but I am adjusting to that ) as I feel my nervous system is running wild, and I cannot focus on anything. I feel a HUGE need for her presence, I NEED to talk to her and see her!
But I have to wait another day. I prefer not to think of her as a “drug” as that sounds bad, like she isnt a person, but MY GOD the craving!!! She disrupts my brain. 🙁
My sympathy to ALL of us who suffer though our own hell that is Limerence 🙁 🙁 🙁
As an aside, I think I have traced the Glimmer back to the first time I hugged her… she had just gotten some great news, I asked if I could hug her, and she said yes. I have always asked for hugs from her, never assumed it was ok to enter her personal space. At least she has told me I always asked.
The Garden
Andrew Marvell
1621 –1678
How vainly men themselves amaze
To win the palm, the oak, or bays;
And their uncessant labors see
Crowned from some single herb or tree,
Whose short and narrow-vergèd shade
Does prudently their toils upbraid;
While all the flowers and trees do close
To weave the garlands of repose.
Fair Quiet, have I found thee here,
And Innocence, thy sister dear!
Mistaken long, I sought you then
In busy companies of men:
Your sacred plants, if here below,
Only among the plants will grow;
Society is all but rude,
To this delicious solitude.
No white nor red was ever seen
So amorous as this lovely green;
Fond lovers, cruel as their flame,
Cut in these trees their mistress’ name.
Little, alas, they know or heed,
How far these beauties hers exceed!
Fair trees! wheresoe’er your barks I wound
No name shall but your own be found.
When we have run our passion’s heat,
Love hither makes his best retreat:
The gods who mortal beauty chase,
Still in a tree did end their race.
Apollo hunted Daphne so,
Only that she might laurel grow,
And Pan did after Syrinx speed,
Not as a nymph, but for a reed.
What wondrous life is this I lead!
Ripe apples drop about my head;
The luscious clusters of the vine
Upon my mouth do crush their wine;
The nectarine and curious peach
Into my hands themselves do reach;
Stumbling on melons as I pass,
Insnared with flowers, I fall on grass.
Meanwhile the mind, from pleasure less,
Withdraws into its happiness:
The mind, that ocean where each kind
Does straight its own resemblance find;
Yet it creates, transcending these,
Far other worlds, and other seas;
Annihilating all that’s made
To a green thought in a green shade.
Here at the fountain’s sliding foot,
Or at some fruit-tree’s mossy root,
Casting the body’s vest aside,
My soul into the boughs does glide:
There like a bird it sits and sings,
Then whets and combs its silver wings;
And, till prepared for longer flight,
Waves in its plumes the various light.
Such was that happy garden-state,
While man there walked without a mate:
After a place so pure and sweet,
What other help could yet be meet!
But ‘twas beyond a mortal’s share
To wander solitary there:
Two paradises ‘twere in one
To live in Paradise alone.
How well the skillful gard’ner drew
Of flowers and herbs this dial new;
Where from above the milder sun
Does through a fragrant zodiac run;
And, as it works, th’ industrious bee
Computes its time as well as we.
How could such sweet and wholesome hours
Be reckoned but with herbs and flowers!
Hello, everyone. I had a recent interaction with LO. It did not go well for me. I have been feeling sad since then. I am trying to accept the grief. Hope I feel better soon. I heard from somewhere that she may be moving away in some time. Hopefully, that will give me closure. Thanks for listening.
Hello ABCD
I have read many of your posts in the last month or so.
I have found this community to be very supportive and kind, as we each have our unique LE journeys.
I can certainly empathize with what you are experiencing. And as others will say… this a safe and accepting space to get some comfort and understanding.
I have found, in “real life” that I had no one I could talk to about this LE experience, and am so grateful I found this community 🙂
Thanks NTL. Yes, you are spot on. For me too, this community has been invaluable, as I have not been able to share my LE with anyone in real life, though I am fairly certain it may have leaked on its own.
Hi ABCD,
I’m sorry that you don’t feel good.
What kind of interaction was it, did you talk, did you feel awkward or was she cool? You don’t have to answer.
Also, what came to my mind first was,
what do you think you feel sad for?
Is it sad like „I miss her because it’s always nice to talk to her“ or „I miss the feeling she gave me“, or „I‘ll never touch this beautiful person“ or „I‘m sad because this wonderful person I thought she is doesn’t really exist and I miss that person“(something I experienced), or „she reminds me of the mess I created in my head“ or… so many possibilities.
You don’t have to answer, but maybe it helps to analyze a bit where this sadness comes from and it’s easier to find a remedy or to limit it?
Her moving away would help a lot and eventually end the limerence, I guess, at least it was the case for me two times, even though I still have contact with both.
I hug you digitally! You came such a long way here, and you are such a thoroughly nice , consistent warm-hearted presence here. You will get through these recurring sadnesses, I’m sure.
ABCD,
Sorry to hear the interaction has triggered off sad feelings. It must be really frustrating not to have got past this yet – but try not to beat yourself up, as it sounds like you continue to progress, just with bumps. Mila has a good point to try and work out what the sadness is saying.
What are your prospects for a longer NC period to try and get past it more and feel stronger if/when future interactions happen?
Thanks Lim-a-rant. Appreciate your support.
We are not interacting much these days, so there are fairly long periods of NC, followed by the occasional interaction. The length of NC periods have been ranging from 4 – 6 weeks. These periods do help me to become stronger mentally .
I guess I need to give it more time till the interactions do not bother me too much?
Hi ABCD,
Sorry to read your ups and downs recently. Maybe that is just it, limerence recovery is full of ups and downs. It just is.
This is based on my own and reading others experiences. It’s likely not a linear straight line on a chart to freedom. It’s more zig zaggy. 📈
Therefore, not to be hard on yourself that you feel down after an interaction, when the time before you were fine. Maybe don’t have expectations of how you think that you should be feeling at this stage, just let it be and pass.
Of course, easier said than done ! I know that for sure.
Maybe longer gaps between interactions can also increase the intensity when you do meet LO (for me it does, maybe not for you )
Best wishes
Hi @ABCD
I just wanted to chime in and say I’m so sorry you are feeling low. That seems natural…It happens to me, too. A kind of hollowing out. I am sure you will feel better in time. And, I have a feeling that if she moves, you will be able to thrive again, even if it is sad for a time.
I hope you’ll take good care of yourself for now. Even though it’s hard, it sounds like you are handling it really well, and just being easy with yourself during this time. I’m so sorry you feel sad.
csc
Thanks CSC. Yes, I am confident I will feel a lot better once LO moves. Till then, I just need to manage the situation. The LO interactions are not frequent, and this helps me in the overall process to recovery.
Thanks, Mila! To be honest, I was quite taken aback by how crappy I felt.
The interaction was okay by itself, we did talk to each other. We were supposed to meet one time earlier but did not meet, as SO did not want to go, then we met at this interaction.
Usually, this level of interaction would have taken me to cloud 9 earlier, but not now. Its like both the negative and positive interactions are making me sad. I am not sure, but LO seemed a little low, though she made the effort to come up and greet.
With regards to why I am sad, I will need to do some internal thinking. Perhaps, I am getting the withdrawal symptoms, as number of LO interactions is way down. Or perhaps, I am fatigued by the whole LE, and frustrated that it isn’t still over. It will take its time. Will think more about it and report back. I am a pretty analytical person, so my skills should help here!
”she reminds me of the mess I created in my head”
This could be true.
Thanks so much for the support, Mila! It means a lot.
Here’s to feeling better.
Hi ABCD,
if you feel it’s unnecessarily pulling you back into old thought patterns, don’t bother with analyzing. Sometimes it’s hard to tell what might help, and Imho made a very good point pointing out that healing is seldomly a straight line, there are ups and downs, forth and backward, and that it’s maybe best to let the downs pass through.
Here’s to feeling better too🥂
I just woke up from a horrible dream about LO. I don’t remember most of it, but it concerned his flaky behavior. The dream didn’t make me want to be with him more, it made me hate myself for wanting to be with him. Even though the dream was absurd, the flakiness part was spot-on.
I may have mentioned in another post that I gave him an oil painting two years ago to get repaired and he has not given it back yet. I remind him from time to time. He always apologizes but never does anything.
The flaky behavior is a good thing in the long run because it will help to drive me away.
Hi all. I made a comment somewhere else about possibly linking going NC with lent. Day 1 of planned withdrawal, LO contacted me asking if I wanted to set a time to catch up. I did reply and said for LO to get back to me with a time/date. A week later and he still hadn’t replied. This was the second time in a few weeks he had instigated contact with no follow through. First time I called him out on the flakiness, second time I let it go. He apologised the other day as he’s really busy so may be flaky over the next few weeks. I told him that I wouldn’t be in touch but if he wants to catch up, to let me know. Naturally I want him to be in touch but I also know it sets me back.
Its a funny thing because I was starting to get really sad after positive interactions. I think it was just the realisation that this wasn’t what I really wanted. But that i also don’t really want what I really want. And I want to be closer friends than we are but that’s not going to happen either.
After the most recent message about being busy, I have had more of a sense of calm. I won’t message him now because it’s unwanted but also I don’t really feel rejected either. His explanation was fair. He wanted to catch up but was sorry for being flaky due to busy-ness. I’d be selfish to contact now. So I’m hoping this is growth. I’m also still really trying to align my actions to my values. I do slip up though as thoughts and habits are still consuming.
This is a long process. Today’s post was helpful though.
Wishing you all peace with your situations x
„So I’m hoping this is growth.“
I think it is! It sounds really good, to my ears, it sounds like lining up with reality.
„ I think it was just the realisation that this wasn’t what I really wanted. But that I also don’t really want what I really want. And I want to be closer friends than we are but that’s not going to happen either.“
Realizations like that are signs of waking up, surging to the surface of the deep water and maybe soon air und sun? I think you are on a good way forward.
Wish you all the best!
Maybe I meant „aligning with reality“🤔
LO flakiness is a blessing in disguise, I think. If my LO was more responsive and attentive, the relationship would be more difficult in the long run. I bumped into him yesterday and he said he’d be in touch over the weekend, but I doubt that he will do so. I am used to him not following through. It used to really hurt me, but I realize this is just how he is, and it’s better this way.
I just got a new computer a few days ago, and told him I had to make multiple trips to the store to get it formatted and hooked up properly. He said he would have hooked it up for me. I said nothing, because I don’t believe that he would have followed through.
My LO’s keep turning out to be flakes. A previous one kept making promises he didn’t keep, like to visit or call me, and I’d be waiting and waiting for him. My current one keeps flaking out on me when I need his help with something tech-related….Trouble is he’s on the board and I deal with my church’s tech. Going through this right now. Very frustrating.
👁 — Your L🅾️ Is 🎣 🪝 you….
To Snowphoenix:
Thank you for that reply but I don’t understand the emojis. Could you please translate for me?
Norma,
My previous message was for whoopmp — her LO is fishing 🎣 and hooking 🪝 her affection.
Hi Whoomp. I think that you are doing very well on your path to recovery. Well done!
I am starting over with No Contact after bumping into LO yesterday and getting flustered. I feel like I am on a hamster wheel, going nowhere.
A well-meaning friend pointed out that he is an “asshole” and that I should put him out of my mind.
I can’t explain to her why I am unable to do this. She doesn’t understand limerence, despite me trying to explain what I am experiencing.
Hi Norma. Yep, the hamster wheel analogy sounds familiar.
Devaluing LO has worked for some people. Personally, I have not had success with it, partly because I do not LO too well.
Hope you feel better soon!
To ABCD:
Thank you for your kind words. I do work on devaluing LO sometimes. It is effective for me, since he has lots of bad qualities, and has lost his temper with me several times for no reason. Even though his unkindness is a turn-off, he always apologizes profusely and promises to do better, even though I know he won’t. Then I end up feeling closer to him. So it’s a paradox.
Hi Imho. Thanks for your message and support.
Yes, it could be that we interacted after a long time, so maybe that’s why there is a higher intensity to my sadness.
As you have said, I am not judging myself right now, just waiting for these crappy feelings to pass.
In my case, progress is definitely not linear, but its still progress – 2 steps forward and 1 step backward is still 1 step forward.
Hi New to Limerence. I can understand how you are feeling, as I have been there. You may have read the stages of limerence. After a while, things just start to deteriorate more and more.
Just wondering – are you able to have NC with your LO, even if it is for a short period. In my experience, NC is the best defense against limerence, as exposure to LE just triggers all those feelings that cause emotional turmoil. Hope you feel better soon!
ABCD…
“deteriorate”? I dont like the sound of that… in what way(s)?
NC is not possible ( same office, same floor, but opposite sides of the building. I tried it once, for 2 days… she was upset and confused.. I was in HELL
And, really… as I have stated in other posts… we are good friends and go for daily walks together… I cant give that up… even weighed against the suffering
Not until she leaves and NC is forced on me