Reader Samantha got in touch with me a while ago to ask for more information about living a more purposeful life. Specifically, she asked about the books that I would recommend about purposeful living and what it means. I confess it’s taken me rather a long time to reply (apologies, Samantha), because, somewhat surprisingly, I found it a difficult question to answer.
The main reason is that there isn’t a specific book or site or resource that I could put my finger on as emblematic of my conception of purposeful living. Like many introverts I read a lot; basically all the time. And it struck me that the nebulous ideas I’ve tried to capture under the term “purposeful living” are kind of distributed across a rather eclectic reading list. I also have a bit of a contrary nature and read things that I disagree with, to better understand other people, and so hesitate to recommend books that irritated or angered me but nevertheless had some nuggets of wisdom within them.
After this typical period of centrist dithering, I decided to stop being so precious and just throw out a list of the most memorable and thought-provoking books that have helped shaped my notion of what a purposeful life means. In no particular order:
The Power of Habit, Charles Duhigg
A great summary of the psychology behind much of our behaviour. A real eye-opener on how cautious one needs to be to avoid coasting along familiar tracks through habit, and how important it is to be much more active in decision-making. Also, some good practical advice on how to break bad habits and establish good ones.
Thinking, Fast and Slow, Daniel Kahneman
Another classic for understanding how your mind works. A great primer for how our various cognitive biases, mental short-cuts, and quick-and-dirty intuitions can lead us to make flawed decisions. A good lesson in why it often pays to think slowly and carefully before taking action.
Women who run with the wolves, Clarissa Pinkola Estes
A really poetic and thought-provoking journey into the Jungian conception of the subconscious. Weird and wonderful in places, and uses a very powerful device of telling archetypal stories as a way of illuminating fundamental aspects of human nature. Focused on the female experience, but not limited to that.
The seven habits of highly effective people, Stephen Covey
A milestone of self-development. A perennial bestseller. Basically, a manifesto on how to live an effective life and be a positive influence on the world. (A bit dull in places, though).
The consolations of philosophy, Alain de Botton
I’m not a big fan of the School of Life, but this was the first Alain de Botton book that I read, and I still love it. A humane, comforting, and concise summary of what the major schools of philosophy can offer to improve modern life. This was the first place that I came across the teachings of Seneca and is a great gateway drug to the hard stuff.
Arnold: The education of a bodybuilder, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Douglas Kent Hall
A case study in the power of single mindedness. Whatever you think of the Austrian Oak, he is a force of nature and has a phenomenal work ethic. As he put it in a commencement speech once “Nobody ever climbed the ladder of success with their hands in their pockets.”
Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell
Fascinating, surprising, depressing, inspiring. A deep dive into why some people achieve extraordinary things, and how small advantages coupled to positive feedback loops can play a decisive role. Another great example about how hard work and marginal gains can lead to compounding successes.
Memoirs, Mikhail Gorbachev
A man I have always admired. A fascinating life and the key player in the thawing of the cold war.
Think and Grow Rich, Napoleon Hill
A bit of an annoying read, but interesting nonetheless. Don’t bother trying to fathom “the secret”, but do take away the core point: you have to decide that you want to succeed and work for it. That emphasis on active choice retains its power, despite the dated case studies.
Quiet, Susan Cain
Viva the Introvert revolution!
Eat that Frog!, Brian Tracy
A lean but idea-rich book on how to achieve the important things in your life, without neglecting other responsibilities. A productivity and prioritisation guide from a businessman who also seems like a genuinely nice guy. The weird title comes from a paraphrased Mark Twain quip: “If the first thing you do each morning is to eat a live frog, you’ll have the satisfaction of knowing it’s probably the worst thing you’ll have to do all day.”
And, of course, it goes without saying, Love and Limerence, Dorothy Tennov.
Since starting the site, I’ve had several readers recommend books for me, and some of them have been gems. So please, wise LwL-ers, fill up the comments with your own recommendations…
Thanks for the list – some of those sound very interesting.
One book I have found has helped me tremendously, not specifically about Limerence, but for generally changing my outlook on life was “You Can Heal Your Life” by Louise Hay.
Also for those limerents trying to repair wider problems with their marriage/relationship, “Hold Me Tight” by Dr Sue Johnson was recommended to me by my individual therapist before we started marriage counseling. Would highly recommend, providing you’re both committed to it.
Hold Me Tight was good, but I found Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment to be even better. I’m convinced now that EVERYONE should understand her/his own attachment style and how to identify this trait in potential mates. And if you’re already married, this can be an invaluable resource in learning how to de-escalate from the fighting that stems from disconnection with your partner.
I read it. Overall, I liked it but I thought it had a few shortcomings.
The part on “protest behavior” was excellent. I think every therapist doing couples or relationship counseling should start with attachment styles.
Where I thought it came up short was in what was causing your SO’s insecure attachment. If the source of your SO’s insecure attachment is a personality disorder, nothing they recommend in the book will ever really fix that. You may be able to manage the insecure attachment, you may not. The book glosses over that. It could lead someone to believe that if they do enough of the right things, good results will eventually materialize. It could lead someone to stay in an abusive relationship while trying things out.
I have two professional opinions that LO #2 had a personality disorder. I was never able to get her in front of a therapist and I tried. I told her that if getting back together was even a glimmer in her mind, we’d see a marriage counselor. I’d pay for it. She had a different idea of “professional help.” Both therapists said I was lucky to have gotten away from her and both said that if I ever go back on the market, don’t re-engage her.
I should have mentioned the book was “Attached….” by Heller and Levine
Thank you for the recommendations, some interesting finds I’ll look into.
This morning I bit the bullet and disclosed my LO to my SO, boy that was tough, I think I’ve never been so petrified in my life. SO took it well, he’s promised not to buy a shot gun and listened to everything I’ve had to say, we spoke for nearly 4 hours. I feel like I’ve been in the washing machine that was left on spin cycle, it’s the 1st big step for us to mending our marriage and I feel relieved, guilty, but still relieved.
Tomorrow NC starts, I have mixed feelings about this.
Well-done! That’s a massive step.
Good luck for NC – will be worth it in the long run.
For a purposeful life, “The Happiness Project” by Gretchen Rubin.
Really enjoying this Happiness Project. Thanks for recommending it!
A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. I feel like this one might be a bit divisive on this site, but love or hate the guy, his observations on conscious loving are very true to the notion of purposeful living. My SO and I read a bit each morning to set our tone for the day, and after the shock of my confession about the LE, it became an anchor-point for us in processing the experience together. Like much other eastern / Buddhist perspectives, Tolle points out the contradictory nature of obsessive, self-grasping “love”, and his simple solution – to be present – helped me through the worst of the chemical comedown.
“The Goal” by Eliyahu Goldratt
“Every action that brings a company closer to its goal is productive. Every action that does not bring a company closer to its goal is not productive.”
This was big in business schools about 20 years ago but it has a much wider context. In “The Goal,” the context was a business and the goal was to make money for the company.
What are your goals in life? Take happiness…if what you’re doing contributes to it, that thing is productive. If it detracts from your happiness, it’s not. However, defining your goals isn’t always easy and something always seems to come up that throws a wrench in the plan. Sometimes, we appear to have competing goals. You have to decide which goals to pursue and which goals you have to subordinate to achieve the primary goal.
If you can stomach it, Goldratt also wrote, “Theory of Constraints.” The oversimplification is that your productivity can never be better than your most significant constraint.
My last LE was not productive in the context of a happy, stable marriage.
I just read Marie Kondo’s “Life-changing magic of tidying up” and found its idea of “putting your house in order” physically and metaphorically to be very much in line with purposeful living. On p. 184, though she is talking about possessions and choosing what to keep and what to discard, it could also have to do with the fantasies of limerence: “There are three approaches we can take toward our possessions: face them now, face them sometime, or avoid them until the day we die”
Just found a lovely little book which is kind of graphic tale of what may be a limerents journey back to happiness with interactive sections for the reader to do some self work! It’s called “Hidden Heartbreak” by Emma Lee. It’s charming and ever so helpful.
Dr L – join Amazon Associates and add affiliate links for all these books. This is a great site and it wouldn’t cost readers any more and would bring in some more income for all the work that goes into the site.
DrL,
Have you read “Behave – The Biology of Human’s at Our Best and Worst” by Robert Sapolsky? If you have, I’d be interested in what you think of it.
I’m only about 60 pages and one appendix into it. It’s pretty dense. A lot of the technical part is beyond me but a lot of what he says seems to make sense.
No. That’s a new one on me. Sounds good.
I’m slowly getting through it. It’s interesting.
Here’s one for DrL:
The book tries to explain how the brain works and what affects it. I just finished the section on Oxytocin and Vasopressin. The book demonstrates we’re beginning to understand how things affect certain parts of the brain. Technology is allowing us to map brain function better and better. The book cites relevant studies giving conclusions to things. Something is considered valid because enough subjects exhibit similar behavior under similar conditions.
So,
If that’s true, could you take data, i.e., a sufficiently accurate map, and back fit it to a known population? For example, all Virgos are supposed to have some common characteristics as modified by aspects affected by time and place of birth (yeah, I know way too much about this thanks to LO #2). ENTJs share common characteristics. Dissmissive-Avoidants meet the same diagnostic criteria. This implies the brains in those people should be more or less firing in the same way. What if you could map the brain patterns of these groups? Would Virgos have the same neural patterns? Could somebody look at a neural map and conclude, “You’re an Aquarian INFP, with an anxious attachment style?”
I asked that question of the EAP counselor. She made some comment about the validity of psuedo-science. I asked her but what if the data actually supported it? She didn’t respond.
“Distancing: Avoidant Personality Disorder, Revised and Expanded” – Martin Kantor
http://admin.umt.edu.pk/Media/Site/SSH/SubSites/cp/FileManager/Ebooks/DCPe-26.pdf
Martin Kantor takes a different approach to Avoidant Personality Disorder (AvPD). He breaks down avoidants into 4 Types (LO #2 seemed to be a Type III). It’s not the most rigorous text but the first 11 chapters are very interesting. After that, it’s directed at clinicians. The book received a fair amount of criticism. In a later work, he revised some things.
Kantor’s discussion of Passive-Aggressive behavior Pages 130-137 is outstanding. Even if you don’t read anything else, I recommend you read those pages.
Hi there, I’m new to the site but WOW does a lot of this resonate with me! I’m realizing I’ve been dealing with serial limerence for decades, and until recently also had unacknowledged alcohol addiction. I’ve kicked the booze and am now in process of getting the limerent tendencies….under active management, shall we say. 🙂 But along the way I’ve picked up a number of excellent books that have each been as valuable if not more than any therapist. In addition to The Power of Habit & 7 Principles of Highly Effective People, I’d also recommend (in no particular order):
Feeling Good by David Burns
7 Secrets of Making Marriage Work by John Gottman
Feeling Good Together by David Burns
The Power of Full Engagement by Loehr and Schwartz
Creating Your Best Life by Miller and Frisch
The Resilience Factor by Reivich and Shatte
The How of Happiness by Lyubomirsky
Positivity by Barbara Frederickson
Do One Thing Different by O’Hanlon
Spark: The Revolutionary New Science of Exercise and the Brain by John Ratey
Toxic Parents and CoDependent No More were also eye openers. I wouldn’t be surprised if limerent tendencies were associated with traumatic childhoods, anxious attachment styles, and learned codependent behaviors, especially for those of us who fall hardest for the lost, broken, and hurting.
Your last paragraph speaks volumes for me. Perhaps Childhood Emotional Neglect [CEN] could have a part to play in limerence. I have read the two books you mention.
I found a book recently- it was recommended to me- that has totally changed the game for me. It’s exactly what DrL. has been saying the whole time, but I felt overwhelmed and powerless to put it into action. It has taken my intrusive thoughts, already, down many notches, and I told my SO that I actually have a calm(ish) brain for the first time in the longest time. It gives me so much hope that I can kick the limerence habit actually.
The name of the book is You Are Not Your Brain- the 4-step solution to changing bad habits, ending unhealthy thinking, and taking control of your life. Jeffery M. Schultz and Rebecca Gladding. It is written from a neuroscience perspective, and explains why our thoughts and actions are so powerful and why the habitual responses and bad habits are so hard to break. And the 4-steps are very simple and, for me, immediately helpful.
The fruits, so far, have been a calmer mind, a marked decrease in my feelings of shame and guilt for what goes on in my brain, increased hope and confidence that I’m not a victim of the limerence, and increased intimacy with my SO. I can also see how so many of the attempts I made at trying to handle and manage this on my own actually ended up strengthening the things I was trying to get rid of.
SO GOOD!
Thank you for this. I am going to purchase. Im super pleased this has helped you. Wow.
Thank you for this. I will have to check that one out too. I need to stop spending so much time thinking about my LO. I have had a couple of good experiences lately that have helped, but my obsessive thoughts still aren’t entirely gone.
Update- this book has been like a miracle for me! Everyday is getting a bit better, and it feels like LO is naturally fading into the backround of my mind. I think I used to believe that I’d miss it- that I’d somehow be less without the LE (which is truly demented, as it has caused so much pain and discomfort and strife). But I don’t miss it. I feel a growing freedom and lightness. I STRONGLY recommend this book and the tools it gives- amazing the effect it’s had!!!!
I’ve ordered it and eagerly waiting it’s arrive. Super pleased it’s helped you so much!
“Why am I missing my LO and wanting to reach out … I’m worried he’s slipping back into a fantasy version of himself. I feel so sad! I just want to slap myself right now as I really need to let this go. I’m so low cuz I feel like this is never gonna end and I’m going to be stuck in this forever. I’m battling with myself so much as I just don’t know why I can’t move on from this. I just keep coming back to this same place. It’s exhausting!”
I just read your comment, Rachel, and I wanted to comment here. I think what I’m learning is that the whole reason we keep falling back into the same emotional holes over and over and over and over is because of the way our brain has been trained. For me, thanks to this lovely book, this is what I do now: I observe the thought and feeling- so “I’m craving LO” and “I’m having uncomfortable physical sensations of a nervous stomach, sweaty hands, fast heart” I just label it without judgement, and then I say “that’s a deceptive message from my brain. It’s just my brain, it’s not me. There’s nothing I need to do right now.” And then I turn my attention to something that’s good and real- not trying to get rid of the uncomfortable feelings, but doing something else even while the feelings and thoughts continue to bother me. Literally ALL the trouble I’ve found is in trying to get rid of the feelings and thoughts all by myself. They refer to that as “feeding the monster” and it just ends up making everything worse. By the way, they say that when you turn your attention, it doesn’t mean talking about it…. just being INTENTIONAL about the next thing that needs to be/can be attended to. And then the 4th things to do is to say to yourself “that thought is a deceptive brain message and can be disscarded”
What I’m finding is that it really helps to observe how the thoughts and feelings fade EVERY SINGLE TIME on their own if I don’t panic and try to take care of them by myself. DrL. is right when he says that my actions are the things that matter- in that they can make everything either worse or better. They can feed the monster or starve the monster.
I’ve noticed that the thoughts and sensations went absolutely crazy when I started doing this, but that they quickly and permanently lost a bit of their power over me. I’m still in the process, but I know that this will lose it’s power completely over time. My brain isn’t in charge anymore.
Keep your chin up- there’s SO much hope!!!!
Yey Jayne I am thrilled your feeling so good and I’m really sinking in your positivity.
I think I need to remember that I don’t miss LO I miss my dopamine hit but I forget that sometimes and get sucked into the fantasy. I do like seeing limerence as an addiction and these lows are all part of the withdrawal. It’s not about LO, if it wasn’t him then I would have been someone else who glimmered.
I’ve got this book and am on chapter 4. It’s so educational! Have you found putting it into practice easy enough.. the cognitive stuff I find so so hard. But I am going to give this ago now my emotions have settled a little. Thanks for your message I always appreciate any support from here
I find it simple- but it’s also really difficult in that I need to stay mindful. I think it’s difficult to do anything new until it becomes the new normal. But I’ll take this difficulty over creating the habits that attack my integrity, honesty and peace. There’s really no payoff to this LE anymore at all- so I’m willing to do what it takes to put it behind me. I also think that plan of action will positively affect many other areas of my life as well.
I’m now not just wanting- I’m willing to do what it takes- that’s the difference for me at this point. I have an actual life- outside of my pretend one- that I want to live😊
Update- this book has been like a miracle for me! Everyday is getting a bit better, and it feels like LO is naturally fading into the backround of my mind. I think I used to believe that I’d miss it- that I’d somehow be less without the LE (which is truly demented, as it has caused so much pain and discomfort and strife). But I don’t miss it. I feel a growing freedom and lightness. I STRONGLY recommend this book and the tools it gives- amazing the effect it’s had!!!!
Sorry for the double reply!!
Rachel- I’m excited for you! Can’t wait to hear what you think
Thanks for these books DrL!
I read “Quiet” a few months ago and what an eye opener! Helps make more sense of my experience of being an introvert in the commercial workplace. I have lost count of the number of times my annual appraisals say something like “needs to network more”.
Have just finished “Consolations in Philosophy” and absolutely loved it! Have never read any western philosophy before, only eastern & Buddhist philosophy. I was surprised at how the same themes and ideas come up in both. Am hooked and want to read more! -any more recommendations?
I read another book by Alain de Botton “The course of love” – a great read for limerents as is a story about a very realistic marriage from the perspective of a limerent husband.
Steven Reiss, Who am I?
A model of human needs and motivation that both makes sense and has some data behind it.
TL/DR:
For Father’s Day, my daughter bought me “A Thousand Ships” by Natalie Haynes. It’s a fictional fleshing out of the women of the Trojan War, whose stories weren’t really developed in the epic works. I’m only about 2/3 of the way through but I really like it.
It’s similar to Madeleine Miller’s “Circe,” which I really loved. I saw LO #4 as Circe and told her so. I also saw myself in that story but I didn’t tell her that. For what it’s worth, if I was that guy, we didn’t end up together. I don’t see myself as anyone in “A Thousand Ships.” But, I’m not done reading it, yet.
So far, my favorite characters are Helen and Aphrodite. Haynes adds depth and dimension to them. Her treatment of “The Judgment of Paris” is great. The chapter starts just before the wedding of Thetis, a sea nymph, and Peleus, a mortal Greek king.
Haynes starts out by fleshing out the goddesses, Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite. It’s Aphrodite that grabbed my attention. She reminds me of several recent posters on LwL.
“Aphrodite, on the other hand, saw every wedding as a small defeat. She prized love, but not the marital kind. Never the marital kind. What kind of love was that: companionship? The precursor to children? It was all she could do not to snort. What was companionship, when you could feel all-consuming passion? Who would not exchange a husband for a lover who would thrill rather than comfort? Who would not prefer to have her child slink unnoticed from a room if it meant her lover could sneak in through another door? It was impossible to believe that anyone would choose marital love over the kind of single-minded desire which Aphrodite called her own. People always said they prized their spouses, their offspring (indeed, Aphrodite had a son of her own, whom she liked perfectly well), but she knew the truth. In the small hours of the morning, when men and women whispered their secret prayers, they were to her. They begged not for health and long life, as they did during daylight hours. They begged for the blinding, deafening force of lust to be visited upon them and they begged for reciprocation. Everything else-wealth, power, status, was just furniture around the things they truly wanted, to obstruct or disguise it. And that had nothing to do with marriage.” – “A Thousand Ships” by Natalie Haynes (p. 141)
https://livingwithlimerence.com/love-and-limerence-part-one/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/love-and-limerence-part-two/
Paris is given the task of deciding which goddess is the fairest. He has to tread carefully. https://www.peterpaulrubens.net/images/gallery/the-judgement-of-paris.jpg
Hera offers Paris power. Athene offers Paris wisdom. Aphrodite offers Paris the most beautiful woman in the world. Paris asked if it was her, Aphrodite. She says no, that would destroy him and I have doubt it would have. Aphrodite, offers him Helen, wife of Menelaus. Unlike the bit playing ditz Helen is often portrayed as in traditional literature. Haynes gives Helen a remarkable depth. She provides a possible explanation for her actions and Helen understands the repercussions of what she may face. Other Trojan women in the tale put as much of the responsibility for the war on Paris and acknowledge their complicity in their own destruction. In Haynes’ book, they indulged Paris. I like Helen.
Paris gives the apple to Aprhodite. “Paris looked down at the solid golden apple nestled between his thumb. He looked back up at the three goddesses who stood before him, and he knew it had only one rightful owner.
Aphrodite rubs it in.
Back on Mount Olympus, Hera makes the comment, “You didn’t tell him Helen already has a husband,” Hera murmured. She preferred to take her revenge at a leisurely pace, so refusing to speak to her tormenter would serve little purpose” (pp 155-156)
“It didn’t seem important,” Aphrodite replied, “Besides, how much can it matter? Paris already has a wife.” (p. 156) I like Aphrodite, too.
Natalie Haynes is one smart woman.
Who says art doesn’t imitate life, or vice versa?
“She says no, that would destroy him and I have no doubt it would have.”
And, I even drafted this in Word first. Sigh…
Another poster referenced “The Art of Seduction” by Robert Greene
I was in the office and looked at my copy. Now, I remember why I didn’t like it. It’s a “How to…” manual for narcissists and sociopaths.
https://www.grahammann.net/book-notes/the-art-of-seduction-robert-greene
Read the descriptions in the link. You can start at Part II. The topics will be familiar to anyone who’s been in an abusive relationship and suffered at the hands of a narcissist or sociopath.
It isn’t about seduction for mutual pleasure. It’s about control, manipulation, and abuse. He refers to the seductees as victims.
Fascinating! I can see how effective this method could be as the seducer roles the book describes are very appealing romantically – it almost makes me want to be so professionally seduced. Luckily humans are hard wired to detect such disingenuous behaviour so I think this will only work if the victim chooses to ignore their gut instincts in favour of their desires. i.e. believes what they wish to be the truth.
I don’t personally understand why anyone would follow this advice… surely the absolute best part of love is the validation of being loved for who you really are. Must suck to only be loved for your ability to act out a role.
Allie,
tl/dr
“Luckily humans are hard wired to detect such disingenuous behaviour so I think this will only work if the victim chooses to ignore their gut instincts in favour of their desires. i.e. believes what they wish to be the truth.”
Unfortunately, many people are conditioned in childhood to override their gut instincts.
Why is that?
For those people who “choose” to ignore their instincts, Shari Schreiber has some ideas.
“Your instincts will never lie to you. If you find it difficult to trust others, it’s because you’re so dissociated from your feelings, you can’t/won’t trust your senses to help you determine whom you can trust, and who you can’t… Instincts and intuitions are disregarded along with other vital sensations, that function as our inner compass or GPS. Their absence can leave us shooting in the dark romantically and professionally, and have us settling for harmful relationship dynamics, just to flee inner emptiness that feels worse than most types of pain.” – Shari Schreiber https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
Schreiber contends that codependents are often the (unintentional) preferred targets of narcissists. Why? Codependents are conditioned to override their instincts making them vulnerable and they respond to the tactics Greene describes. Given the similarities between limerence and codependence, it’s not a great leap to think limerents would respond to the same tactics in similar ways.
Narcissists and sociopaths have an uncanny ability to understand these tactics on an unconscious level. Their enhanced empathy allows them to identify someone’s vulnerabilities and exploit them. I’ve posted a video elsewhere by Heinz Kohut in which he states empathy is an entirely amoral thing. It can be used for good or evil. If you have the intent and the empathy, Greene’s book can teach you how to use them.
Again, people can use the tactics Greene describes entirely without malice but that doesn’t make them any less manipulative. After all, seduction is manipulation for a specific outcome, sex. With some people, it’s not that they care about you, it’s all about whether they can manipulate you into sleeping with them. After LO #2 pissed me off, I wanted to get her in the rack one more time before I kicked her to the curb, just to prove I could. It would be my revenge.
Going further out…Schreiber explains a lot about avoidants, especially Dismissive-Avoidants. DAs don’t think they can trust anybody but themselves and have become ok with that. That’s one of the things that makes chasing a DA so frustrating. Really strong ones don’t think they need anybody and that includes you. They may like having you around and enjoy your company. They may really like you and try to maintain an attachment but in the end, they can live just fine without you. They got along just fine before they met you and they’ll get along just fine when your gone. Maybe they’ll miss you, maybe they won’t.
LO #4 confided in me that after I opened her eyes to what was going on in her relationship, she couldn’t believe the “humiliating and degrading” things she’d done to please her ex and secure his affection and attention. She told me she felt like she’d betrayed her clients, her friends, and worst of all, she’d betrayed herself. As she came out of her spin, she described herself as a “recovering codependent.” From what she told me, he wasn’t the first narc she’d been in a relationship with. She said she was in therapy to make sure he was the last.
She overrode her instincts and she paid for it.
And, it was her confiding these kinds of things to me that drew me to her like a moth to a flame. The more she confided in me the more attached to her I became.
That was my vulnerability.
Last week, I found myself thinking a lot about LO #4. I did a cursory social media drive-by and didn’t come up with much.
I’m not sure why she popped into my head but I have a few ideas. I’m still working from home most of the time and work has been really slow the past few weeks. My son, the pets, and I are the only ones in the house. I’m pretty bored. I installed a game on my new computer that I played a lot when I was in the LE with LO #4. She played it and called it “crack for gamers.” It probably didn’t help.
Thinking about LO #4 got me thinking about LO #2. One of my goals was indifference. i.e., getting to the point where I didn’t care and they had no effect on my life. So, why do they keep popping up?
I think it has something to do with understanding the difference between ambivalence and indifference. I realized that my recent reflections don’t center on a relationship with them, it’s about reconciling the ambivalence that I still appear to have.
This article is interesting: https://openworks.wooster.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=8539&context=independentstudy
It would be interesting to see how the LwL community scores on the questionnaire at the end.
I also found a reference to this: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/good-bad-ambivalence-desiring-ambivalence-under-outcome-uncertainty but I could only access the abstract. It doesn’t reference romantic relations but the abstract seems that it could apply to them.
But, this was the real eye opener: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalence
“Psychologically uncomfortable ambivalence, also known as cognitive dissonance, can lead to avoidance, procrastination, or to deliberate attempts to resolve the ambivalence.”
I’d never framed cognitive dissonance as ambivalence but it makes a lot of sense. Partners who devalue their SOs aren’t indifferent to them, they’re ambivalent and they need to resolve it.
Maybe getting rid of the ambivalence is as simple as understanding it.
I told you it’s been slow at work.
It also probably didn’t help that I started reading “Ariadne” by Jennifer Saint. https://www.theaureview.com/books/book-review-jennifer-saints-engaging-ariadne-continues-the-trend-for-retellings-of-ancient-greek-mythology/
I’d read “Circe” by Madeline Miller. http://madelinemiller.com/circe/
I told LO #4 that I thought about her when I read it. Interestingly, the character I identified with most in “Circe” also appears in “Ariadne” but in a different role.
He doesn’t end up with either of them but he does have a more meaningful encounter with Circe.
“I have only ever become limerent for “damsels in distress”. Specifically, women who are bold and confident on the outside, but hiding an emotional wound within.” – DrL https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-best-cure-for-limerence/
Who needs grand opera when you have Greek legends available?
Maybe it’s time for another post on how boredom is a risk during recovery… 😉
Work is so slow that when I told my boss that I was retiring next year and he asked who I recommended should replace me, I told him they should just eliminate my position. He said he didn’t want that idea floating around in our senior managements’ heads.
There’s stuff I could and want to do but I’m tethered to the company laptop during working hours. I don’t think boredom will be a chronic issue.
As for the trip down memory lane, it was “meh.” As B. B. King put it, “The Thrill is Gone” (1969) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oica5jG7FpU
It was like driving through the neighborhood you grew up in. Familiar but it’s not yours anymore and you don’t really belong there.
“It was like driving through the neighborhood you grew up in. Familiar but it’s not yours anymore and you don’t really belong there.”
Or as I like to say, you can never go back (to really any part of one’s old life). You are different, the other people are different, and the emotional landscape has changed. Unfortunately, whatever a person is hoping to find, it is no longer there. I found that out the hard way.
“It was like driving through the neighborhood you grew up in. Familiar but it’s not yours anymore and you don’t really belong there.”
@Limerent Emeritus.
Nostalgia for a place is an interesting thing to think about, completely aside from limerence.
My family was forced to move from the city where I grow up to the city where my parents grew up for financial reasons. For the longest time, I would think about and dream about the city where I grew up. I felt, if I could return to the first city, and revisit all the landmarks, I could figure out what went wrong with my own life emotionally.
I don’t feel this way anymore. If I returned to my “hometown”, I don’t think there would be much of an emotional response. The place has developed a lot, so even things like parks and backroads and paddocks wouldn’t be there anymore. And the house where I lived – the succession of new owners basically pulled every single living thing out of the garden, and gardening was my thing back then, so it’s definitely wouldn’t feel like “home” anymore.
Very hard to “put down roots” in the modern world, when even the physical appearance or “character” of things can change so fast. Never mind the people. Also, if one has had negative experiences with a given group of people e.g. high school chums, one doesn’t anticipate reunions with joy. One is rather glad for get away…
I wonder how many limerents were extremely shy as children? Maybe the appeal of an LO for some people is that an LO is like a solid reference point in an ever-changing world? Until one realises, of course, that LO is a human who constantly changes too. 😛
Sammy,
I feel the same way. I feel no nostalgia for where I grew up. I don’t care if I ever see the place again.
One thing I have noticed about my LOs is that they always part of the group, unlike me who has always been way over on left field. 🙂 They are the guys who are being promoted at work by management or pushed along in school as “the talented ones.” It’s interesting because I can’t relate to it at all but it fascinates me. They fit so perfectly within the context of their environments. Although I think that quality, over the long-term, would probably get on my nerves. Especially the ones who needed so much to be liked, but short term, it got my attention.
“One thing I have noticed about my LOs is that they always part of the group, unlike me who has always been way over on left field. 🙂 They are the guys who are being promoted at work by management or pushed along in school as “the talented ones.” It’s interesting because I can’t relate to it at all but it fascinates me. They fit so perfectly within the context of their environments.”
@Marcia.
Oh wow. That’s fascinating. It’s almost like you’re fascinated by what it takes to be part of the in-crowd, even though you don’t want to join the in-crowd necessarily. 😛
I have always been hugely fascinated by “in-crowd people”. They like a special species of human, aren’t they, those glamorous and enigmatic insiders? I mean, what does it take exactly to be a member of the in-crowd?
I suppose all of my LOs were guys who knew how to play the social game, more or less. I think I’ve had 4 LOs now, but it’s hard to say for sure, because all the LEs played out differently i.e. not every infatuation was equally long or equally intense.
One made “success” his mantra in life. I don’t know if he ever was successful or not, but he was certainly good at projecting the right image, the image of the successful man. He interviewed well no doubt. (I mostly glared at my interviewers for asking me stupid questions). 😛
One fit right in with his religious circle. Religion was what he valued in life. I don’t know if he was a real man of faith or just a hanger-on. But, again, he paid lip service to all the correct ideals. He seemed to say and do all the right things to earn acceptance from peers.
One was a chameleon. I had a really hard time getting him out of my head. Apparently, he could get along with anyone. He wasn’t just two-faced. He had a face for every occasion. 😉 The only problem was … did he actually like the people he charmed? What’s the saying? The man who is a friend to all is a friend to no one? On the other hand, maybe he just was a lovely person and I’m some terrible cynic who doesn’t believe universal friendship is possible? 😆
My dad has always had the same chameleon thing going on, too. He’s genuinely nice to everyone, and it’s so demoralising. “Oi, Dad. I’m your only son. A little favouritism wouldn’t go astray now and again. You don’t have to treat me the same as everybody else. Please, please, please, just tell me you’re proud of me, okay?” 😛
The last one fit in perfectly at his work. He was a workaholic. He made work his whole life. I think he put everything into work, so didn’t have much life outside of work… He wasn’t in touch with his feelings. I couldn’t talk to him about anything deep or intense.
Is the universe trying to tell me something? Hm, yes. Maybe the universe is trying to tell me something. Maybe the universe is trying to tell me that I should lighten up and stop trying so darn hard to be unique. Maybe too much authenticity is as bad as too little authenticity? One still wants to be relatable, right? 😉
All of my LOs probably had less talent than me. However, they were good at playing the social game, and showing themselves friendly. Sometimes just being “known” by key people in an organisation is vastly more important than mad skills and whatnot. Talent probably doesn’t matter much to employers. (If you’re a likeable person, people will assume you have talent, or assign you a lowly-paid assistant to do the stuff you can’t do). Also, a lot of people get ahead coz their PARENTS were known to the key people. Nepotism and capitalism are by no means mutually exclusive “isms”. 😉
It’s taken me a long time to accept that human beings are social creatures first and foremost. Anyone who can play the social game – and hopefully still be a decent person while doing it – will go far. If you’re got influential and well-connected parents, even better.
On the bright side, this insight means I can actually slack off way more in all areas of my life, and no one will actually notice or care. It’s not called laziness anymore, my sweet; it’s called “strategically conserving one’s energy”. What I lack in productivity, for example, I can always make up for in cheesy smiles and unoriginal but disarmingly sincere questions about people’s weekends! Of course, I’m exaggerating a little for fun, but I think you get the gist… 😆
The problem with us introverts is we put too much emphasis on all the wrong things. Forget Graphics and Ancient History. Small talk and social climbing should be taught as subjects in high school. 😉
Song of the Day: “The “In” Crowd” – Dobie Gray (1965)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZyKZgPmgNA
I’d forgotten how good this song is.
“Girl, I’ll show you a real good time
Come on with me and leave your troubles behind
I don’t care where you’ve been
You ain’t been nowhere till you’ve been in…”
Sammy Sams,
“I have always been hugely fascinated by “in-crowd people”. They like a special species of human, aren’t they, those glamorous and enigmatic insiders? I mean, what does it take exactly to be a member of the in-crowd?”
Idk. I watched a girl who started at my high school as a junior. She knew no one and was immediately accepted as “one of them” even though some of them had known each other since kindergarten. I was baffled by it.
“I think I’ve had 4 LOs now, but it’s hard to say for sure, because all the LEs played out differently i.e. not every infatuation was equally long or equally intense.”
Me, too. I’ve had six, maybe 7, since I was 18. One I’m not sure was an actual LE but it was an infatuation and a fascination. That weasel dared me to go to strip clubs with him. (I love a dare. :)) … and still NOTHING physical happened between us. Wth? 🙂
“I mostly glared at my interviewers for asking me stupid questions. 😛”
I bet that didn’t’ go over well. 🙂
“One fit right in with his religious circle. ”
I wasn’t raised with religion and I know you were, but didn’t someone’s religiosity take the wind out of the sails? I don’t mean that sarcastically but I’d assume someone who was religious would .. um … not be open to getting down. 🙂
““Oi, Dad. I’m your only son. A little favouritism wouldn’t go astray now and again. You don’t have to treat me the same as everybody else.”
I understand. A father needs to think his son is the bee’s knees. 🙂
“Maybe the universe is trying to tell me that I should lighten up and stop trying so darn hard to be unique.”
HA! I have tried to be unique my whole life. I honestly don’t know if I can understand any other motivation.
“All of my LOs probably had less talent than me. However, they were good at playing the social game, and showing themselves friendly. Sometimes just being “known” by key people in an organisation is vastly more important than mad skills and whatnot. ”
Totally agree. That and having a good pair of kneepads. 🙂
” What I lack in productivity, for example, I can always make up for in cheesy smiles and unoriginal but disarmingly sincere questions about people’s weekends! Of course, I’m exaggerating a little for fun, but I think you get the gist… 😆”
I find that most people, if you dig hard enough, have an interesting story or two. If you can get past the tedium about the weekend activities. 🙂
” Small talk and social climbing should be taught as subjects in high school. 😉”
That, and a class for all Humanities majors. It is irresponsible for liberal arts colleges not to prepare you. These are the kinds of jobs you can get, this is how much you’ll earn AFTER taxes, this is the cost of an apartment, basic expenses, etc.
Articles of the Day:
https://thoughtcatalog.com/ari-eastman/2016/11/heres-the-bitter-truth-about-unrequited-love/
https://thoughtcatalog.com/ari-eastman/2015/07/x-things-that-happen-when-an-overthinker-develops-a-new-crush/
https://thoughtcatalog.com/lacey-ramburger/2018/03/here-is-the-poem-you-absolutely-need-based-on-your-myers-briggs-personality-type/ [I wish I could remember more posters MBTI types – I’m ENTJ]
https://thoughtcatalog.com/ari-eastman/2015/07/5-reasons-losing-your-almost-relationship-stings-so-much/
https://thoughtcatalog.com/ari-eastman/2015/05/when-he-asks-if-you-can-be-friends/
https://thoughtcatalog.com/bianca-sparacino/2018/05/empaths-everything-you-need-to-know-about-this-personality-type/
I was looking for a specific article I thought Are Eastman had written but couldn’t find it. I like her work. She probably recently hit 30 and stopped writing for Thought Catalog in 2018. Here are some of her articles that relate to limerence although she doesn’t mention it.
If she’s not a limerent, she seems pretty close.
For LwL readers with time on their hands, check out:
https://www.personality-database.com/vote
You can look up your favorite real or imaginary person and see what people guess their MBTI and Enneagram types are! You can do it by person or movie and compare yourself to anyone you want to!
Would you get along with Scarlett O’Hara or Rhett Butler? Check it out!
This site is fun! According to conventional wisdom, my best matches are INTP/ISTP. I searched against my favorite movies and some celebrities that popped into my head and came up with precisely O INTPs or ISFPs.
If they’re out there, they’re rare.
I was looking at some old files. Here are a few musings that I wrote years ago under a different name:
Limerent Emeritus’ Maxims for Relationships
(with Apologies to George Bernard Shaw)
Want vs. Need:
Between someone who claims to want you and someone who claims to need you, go with the person who wants you. They’re less likely to resent you later.
In relationships, want trumps need. If someone wants you, it’s because of who you are. If someone needs you, it’s because of something they lack.
There’s nothing cooler than being with someone who wants to be with you.
Theft by force is robbery. Theft in your absence is burglary. Theft under duress is extortion. Theft with your consent is fraud. Crimes of the heart are always fraud. Nobody can steal your heart unless you allow them to.
Threat and Risk:
Threat is a function of capability and intent. Bad threat assessments lead to bad risk assessments. Underestimating what someone might do is bad.
Underestimating what someone can do might be fatal.
Risk is a function of threat, vulnerability, and consequence. We only control our own vulnerabilities. We may be able to mitigate consequences. Eliminating threat is usually unethical, immoral, or illegal. Watch “Sleeping With The Enemy.”
No Contact works because it separates threat from vulnerability. If you can’t eliminate the threat or reduce your vulnerability, stay away from it! If you must remain in contact with them, remember “ALARA,” As Low As Reasonably Achievable. The analogy between many of these people and radioactive waste is not coincidental.
Fear, Obligation, Guilt, and Shame:
Fear and Guilt and Shame are voluntary. They’re like voodoo because it only works if you believe it. You might disavow them but Obligations can be forced upon you, often by a court. See your state’s website for Child Support and Alimony schedules.
Children are the ultimate obligation. They may not always be your partner but they’ll always be the kid’s parent. As an obligation, marriage is a distant second.
Miscellaneous:
Some folks have the potential to go through life as very unhappy people. But, don’t ever tell them. They’ll only hate you for it. Stay away from them, if you can.
Disclaimer: This post is as much social commentary as it is about limerence.
I found a copy of “One More Time: The Best of Mike Royko” by Mike Royko for a $1 in a used book store. Being the good near-Chicago boy that I am, I bought it. It’s a great book. The book is a collection of his best columns.
Mike Royko (1932-1997) was a Chicago journalist writing for several local newspapers and later a wider audience under syndication. His work in the early 60s and 70s were almost exclusively local but discussed topics of wider concern. Once he went into national syndication, his columns reflected that. He wrote on many topics although you’d have to be from northern Illinois to appreciate most of them.
I think this column belongs here: https://davidroyko.com/royko-royalwedding-1981 I think a few posters will relate to it.
I’ll apologize for Mike to the LwL readers/posters from the UK. Mike’s style was somewhat…brusque.
OT: There are many great columns in the book. But, I think you’d have to be an American who was at least cogent in the 60s to appreciate them. Some of them ring depressingly true decades later. After reading them, I realized that in some ways, the US hasn’t learned a damned thing. For all the progress we think we made, we still have a long way to go. In some aspects, we worse off now.
I think that would sadden Mike, but being from Chicago, I doubt it would surprise him.
Interesting article: How does trauma spill from one generation to the next?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/2023/06/12/generational-trauma-passed-healing/
It certainly doesn’t apply to all of us but it applies to some of us. I’ve read some of Bessel van Der Kalk’s stuff. He’s pretty dry.
I found this in the Washington Post today:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2023/08/02/body-keeps-score-grieving-brain-bessel-van-der-kolk-neuroscience-self-help/
I read Robert M. Sapolsky’s “Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst.” I understood about half of it. The rest went right over my head.
I’m interested in what DrL thinks about this article.
It’s a good article. I might write a blog post about it, as it raises a significant point about taking an equivocal neuroscience finding and making a big self-help sell out of it. Given the nature of this site, that seems like it’s worth addressing 🙂
I gave up on Behave. Couldn’t get on with the authorial voice.