One of the most complicated questions that I receive from people in distress, on all parts of the limerence spectrum, is “should I fight for them?”
In this scenario, “them” could be an unfaithful spouse, an ex, an LO who has lost interest, an LO who never showed any interest, or that perennially broad category: Other.
Regardless, the person in distress is losing someone they are emotionally bonded to, and doesn’t know how – or even whether – to pull them back.
It’s a question that is both simple and difficult to answer. The simple answer is “I don’t know,” because obviously the details of every individual case are unique and only the people involved know the true particulars. They may not agree on those particulars, but a stranger on the internet clearly knows even less about the complex and quirky specifics.
The difficult answer, though, is that the question itself does imply that there is a larger truth lurking behind all the personal details. Is “fighting for someone” good or bad as a general principle?
It’s a really thorny issue, this one. My gut instinct is “you shouldn’t have to fight. If someone doesn’t enthusiastically want to be with you, then you are better off letting them go, and finding someone who does.” The problem with such an absolutist view, though, is that it’s trivial to think of exceptions.
What if you have been distant and distracted for a while and – bluntly – a bad partner? Should they stick with you regardless, or is it reasonable to expect you to up your game to win them back? What if they have been seduced by a predatory LO who played on their insecurities? Sure, they need to take responsibility for that, but if you think someone you love is being manipulated do you just shrug and say “bad luck weakling, you were played, and I’m off”?
Essentially, the problem I have with this question is that any answer I can come up with tends to generate as many exceptions as solutions.
Yes – you should fight for your marriage!
OK, but he has been serially unfaithful and given me an STD
No – stop fighting a lost cause!
OK, but she does genuinely seem conflicted and we had an amazing day with the kids yesterday and I’d be heartbroken to lose our family.
Yes – faint heart never won fair maiden!
OK, but I think she stole some money from me last week
No – he doesn’t deserve you!
OK, but he might just be finding it hard to commit after the death of his first wife.
So, today’s questions for the community are these: is it futile to try and find some guiding principles for this question? Can we find a rule of thumb? What are your definite YES or NO scenarios?
To kick off the discussion, my starting point is usually “is this being driven by anxious fear of loss, or by a purposeful vision of a better future?”
I’d usually start with inward reflection, rather than analysing the circumstances.
“What are your definite YES or NO scenarios?”
That’s a tough one. For me (and I can only speak for myself, of course), I guess the first questions for an SO would be … What are the extent of your feelings? How much do you think about this person? What have you done to keep this going? Because I’m a limerent myself, so I know there’s been indulging. đ Has there been an EA or a PA? Give me all of it, now. Not in pieces/parts that dribble out over time. And then it would depend on the answers. It would depend on the amount of time the limerence was withheld from me, what the SO had done to end the limerence and what the SO was doing to make sure this didn’t happen again. If the limerence was withheld from me for more than two or thee months, I’d seriously question whether I could trust this person, even if there had been no EA or PA. If there had been an EA or PA … I don’t know if I could stay. I would need to know any information that could affect my decision to stay in the relationship. I don’t need to know about minor attractions that the SO enjoys and walks away from. But as we know, limerence is a whole different ballgame.
Yeah, how honest an SO is being with you has to be a major factor in whether they are worth the fight. If they aren’t being straightforward, it’s hard to make any progress.
Song of the Blog: “The Gambler” – Kenny Rogers (1978)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImAO-I1cJnE
“You’ve got to know when to hold ’em
Know when to fold ’em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run”
For starters, “I don’t know” isn’t an answer. It’s a response. Answers close questions. All answers are responses but not all responses are answers. “I don’t know” is a perfectly valid response but the question stands.
On a more metaphysical note, the question shows the Yin and Yang of the universe. It seems like for any position one might adopt, there’s an equal and opposite corollary.
“Absence makes the heart grow fonder.”
“Out of sight, out of mind.”
I’ve fought and I’ve quit.
I fought for LO #2 because I loved her and in spite of compelling evidence, I thought if I hung on long enough, she’d turn. When LO #2 said that I’d done everything she ever asked of me and the harder I tried the more she resented me for it, I asked her directly if I had been playing a game that I could never win. She said, “Pretty much.” And, yet, 6 months later, I went another round with her. However, I will say this for LO #2. When I asked her a direct question, I always got an answer that I could work with. But, I’m really good at asking questions. The EAP counselor commented that I didn’t know what was going on, LO #2 told me. The EAP counselor said the LO #2’s behavior and words were consistent. She said something along the lines of I knew it, I understood and I accepted it anyway.
I walked away from LO #4 because we’d reached a point, and she called it, that moving forward would come at the cost of my marriage and family. LO #4 didn’t want to be the catalyst for that and my marriage and family were more important than she was.
“Do I fight for them?”
“Maybe, maybe not.”
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/stupiditydemotivator.jpeg?v=1403276126
That’s a very good point, LE.
“I don’t know” basically means, “I don’t have an answer”.
I could actually see that deepening limerence for many people. The unbearable thought that this could be a no-win scenario just makes them more determined to try and achieve the impossible.
I fought for LO twice when I sensed he was slipping away, being dazzled by someone else. My âfightingâ was timid and childlike yet ever so sincere ⌠if I hadnât have fought I would have always wondered if I should have.
Ultimately I of course lost, and have retrospectively realized he wasnât worth fighting for anyway, but there was no way I would have known that then. When the Limerence drug wears off things become ever more clear.
Itâs comforting to realize that losing a fight was the best thing that ever happened to you.
If I hadnât have fought and lost would I have ever have come to that empowering conclusion?
That’s another big part of the problem, isn’t it? If you don’t try, there’s no hope.
And do you want to be the one who gave up first…?
The main reason I haven’t fought harder for my LO is because I’ve had a pretty consistent battle between my conscious and subconscious minds about whether or not I even WANT to “win” him. My conscious mind says, “This whole catastrophe is a trick of your dysfunctionally wired brain! Don’t believe it. He’s bad news. Very, very bad news. You’re trying to get the love from your childhood you never got, but you won’t get it from him, or from anyone or anything outside of yourself. Run away– run like the fucking wind, and do it now.” My subconscious mind says, “He’s worth it! We understand each other. We’re kindred spirits, wounded in similar ways. We could help each other with our individual journeys, we could learn to be vulnerable, together, and help one another on our individual paths. And I bet he’s a fantastic lover…” So far the former has won out, but the latter is still driven by romantic notions, influenced by passionate scenes in movies where two people finally break down the barriers and fall into each other’s arms. Sigh…
In my experience, if you have to fight, youâve already lost đ
People will do what they want to do, and if they have to put in effort, they only do that if they think itâs worthwhile.
If thereâs no effort being put in on one side, you have your answer..
PolitePunk,
“If thereâs no effort being put in on one side, you have your answer..”
Yes, totally agree. Or if one side is doing most of the effort. If you have to dance around to get someone’s attention and approval or feel you have to “fight” for them, you have your answer. You shouldn’t have to convince someone to be with you. You shouldn’t have to press them for details about what is going on between you.
Part of me completely agrees with this.
But at the same time, and I think this is an important point DrL makes, there are always exceptions. If I consider the scenario when you have been happily married to someone for two decades or so and you have children together. You love each other but there is the inevitable marital complacency. Family is financially dependent on spouse. Spouse reaches mid-life and falls into limerence with younger more interesting, fun, lively single co-worker that enjoys the attention and a challenge, and reciprocates. In the fog of limerence, they leave you. A few weeks later they start to return to their senses… the reality falls far short of expectations, and they desperately miss their spouse, family, home, old life, etc. The are very ashamed and believe spouse (and everyone) must really hate them. As a result, they feel they cannot go back…
I would consider that a marriage worth fighting for. Although I would be setting a lot of pride aside in doing so.
I think it’s entirely possible for someone to become limerent and act on it, only to discover once the haze of the limerence wears off that their SO was a better partner for them long-term. You can’t really know someone while being limerent. And it all depends on what’s at stake.
I was thinking of someone who just started dating their LO and the LO is doing very little of the work or a person who is in a serious relationship of a couple years (but not intermingled financially and share no children). Their SO discloses limerence for a co-worker, and it’s been going on for a year. Maybe there’s been an EA or even a PA. Is it worth fighting for? Probably not.
For me two more key questions would be: what does the fight cost me (or others)? how long to fight for?
If we are talking about fighting for a (long term) spouse that has left me for an LO, I would absolutely fight for them. I am quite prepared to forgive a mistake, even if that mistake was a mid-life escape to someone different (and ultimately unsuitable) for a while. I would need a good indication that they still loved me and still wanted to be with me though. I would not fight for a lost cause.
But it would be important to recognise the point in time when continuing to fight for them is harming me, and stopping me from living my life purposefully. If they had been gone for more than 6 months… enough already. Otherwise, fighting for them might eventually start to feel eerily like a limerent’s endless obsessive fight for their LO.
Also linked into “how long to fight” is “when to fight”.
It often seems as though there is a critical window of opportunity to act – before they move out, before they start the affair, before the big anniversary – which creates a sense of urgency.
I suppose that is another rule of thumb: if the fight starts as a desperate panic then it’s probably a losing battle.
I didn’t give up on LO #2 until she broke my trust in her and I lost all hope of ever getting it back. Losing hope in her put her beyond redemption and the fight was over.
For two years, she was the primary contributor to my happiness. For two years, the was the primary detractor to my happiness. She was the lead in the worst year of my life.
Once my trust in her was gone, she became an active impediment to my happiness and she had to go.
Hi Dr L – Could you write a piece on ‘Mate Choice Copying’ and its relationship to Limerence attraction?
“What if you have been distant and distracted for a while and â bluntly â a bad partner? Should they stick with you regardless”
No. They demonstrated their character and it was found wanting. Being divorced is NOT worse than being with someone who is duplicitous and half-hearted.
So glad I made my final child support payment for HER third child (he turned 18) and I’m free of her. Too bad I can’t sue her for the money I put into HER first child’s college education.
I wish my wife would stop fighting for me. I’ve told her I have no wish to be married to her, yet she will not let me go. I’ve mentioned over 100 times how I want a divorce and how I will NEVER change my mind, but she won’t accept it. This has gone on for about 1.5 years now. I don’t understand this. I know several people who had that same difficult conversation with their spouses over the last few years, and those people could accept that their marriage was at an end. She refuses to believe it, and even some of my own family members seem to believe I’m the bad guy here and the narrative of the man in a midlife crisis who can’t wait to ditch his wife for a thinner, prettier model. But that is only a tiny part of the story. Mostly it’s about her dominance, control and abusive bullshit not only towards me, but also towards my daughter.
I know you don’t need your spouse’s consent to get a divorce, but in this jurisdiction you generally need a year of separation first and I don’t know how I could manage that financially and logistically. I feel utterly trapped in a loveless, sexless, boring marriage with a tyrant who wants to control my every move and every penny I spend. But because things are pleasant and cordial 60-70% of the time (although never exciting) I even feel a bit guilty for wanting out myself at times. I just don’t know what the hell to do.
VL, I’ve been lurking from afar on this. I’m just going to lay it out. You clearly know what to do, and you don’t need her’s, our our permission to proceed. Yes, there will be consequences and sacrifices. But, if on the other side you recover and lead a better, purposeful life. Do it.
Yes, I know what I need to do but I just can’t see a way to do it. There isn’t even enough money for one household, never mind two. We can’t even pay our bills properly at this stage, and my pay is gone after a day or two. When a modest house is $1 million and rent for a 2 bedroom crappy apartment is $2,500 a month, it’s difficult to see a way out. I could go and live with my father and brother, but the place is a pigsty, they’re both pretty much on my wife’s side and they are both experiencing challenges with mental illness (I need to work from home in my job now, and I cannot see getting any work done at their house). Not to mention, where would I take my daughter? The situation is toxic between her and my wife and the police and child protection authorities have been to our house several times because of it. My daughter begs me to divorce her and take her with me. The only way out I can see is for me to start making extra money through side gigs and putting some of it away. The problem is my wife would then push for more expensive home improvements once more money starts coming in (she is already pushing to get the windows replaced, which we simply cannot afford). It’s as if she wants to keep us financially strapped and in debt. She says otherwise, but she just doesn’t seem realistic in the things she wants to do. I could petition a court to order a sale of our home, but that takes lawyers, court action and money, which we simply do not have. Still, if I do start putting a little aside, maybe I could use some of it for that. Very complicated for sure!
Posted about it on another thread.
Lost cause for me. Not helped by the fact that she appears to be married which was not so much as hinted at on the dating site! Disastrous meet, compounded by excessively intense comms afterwards…one I must let go.
There’s a lot that I could say about it but won’t! A lost cause and subsequent verbal words afterwards mean that even civility and friendship is a no go, maybe had I done the aftermath differently.
“Should I fight for them?”
Such an interesting question. I think “fighting for” a person is a notion that has become a bit romanticised in our culture, largely thanks to books and movies. However, I don’t think popular romantic tropes are always a reliable guide to how one should conduct oneself in real life…
Here are some of the things I’d consider:
(1) Has the fighter been in a committed relationship at some point with the person they’re fighting for? I think it makes a lot more sense to “fight for” someone you’ve actually been with versus someone you haven’t been with. I.e. it’s not unreasonable to fight for a spouse who’s strayed if one still wants to be in the marriage. It’s far less reasonable to fight for an LO who has never committed to anything at all, and who perhaps doesn’t want a commitment either.
(2) If one is “fighting for” an errant spouse, and limerence is the cause of said erring, where is the erring party in the limerent wash-rinse-spin cycle? I.e. if one is fighting for a spouse who is experiencing the peak of obsession, then the odds of winning that fight are distinctly “meh”. If, on the other hand, an erring spouse is coming to the end of a limerent episode with an LO, and can see the LO’s imperfections honestly, then a spouse fighting for an errant spouse has a stronger chance of success – assuming both spouses want to continue with the marriage.
(3) LOs often become LOs because they are people who are two things – (a) unavailable and (b) confusing. Fighting for someone unavailable? Hm. I think that’s going to be an uphill battle. Although the real and/or perceived “challenge” of this attraction may be part of its charm. (Remember, obstacles increase desire – up to a point).
(4) How does one feel about limerent bonding in the first place? What is one’s current philosophy on healthy love and attachment? I had a very interesting discussion with my younger sister the other day. We shared our thoughts/feelings on romance in general and it became apparent that while I’m a limerent, my sister is a non-limerent. Despite being non-limerent, my sister turned out to have surprisingly strong opinions on limerence as a style of attachment.
I think my sister basically finds limerent passion “elitist”. What does this mean? I think this means the same thing as “pretentious”, a word which non-limerent commentators here have occasionally used. And, when I was talking to my sister, for the first time in my life, I think I could almost understand this argument/point of view, and recognise its validity.
For example, a single limerent who passes up many wonderful opportunities for partnership with available people because he/she is pining after an confusing/unavailable LO, is behaving extremely foolishly – in the eyes of a non-limerent observer. Of course, the counterargument to this stance is that limerence is something people experience involuntarily, so it’s a wee bit harsh to judge people for the painful predicament they find themselves in. A further point should be made, too – limerents are crucially not thinking logically while experiencing limerence. Limerence is not a rational phenomenon. đ
I think perhaps the real point my sister wanted to make was that maybe limerents should make more of an effort to admit to the downsides of limerence and, in light of those downsides, consider the rewards of limerence-free bonding?
In other words, I think my sister wanted to see more relationships between two non-limerent persons celebrated in popular culture. Maybe glamorous portrayals of limerent passion in media just set the bar too high for people who don’t experience limerence at all, but still consider themselves to be deeply romantic souls at heart? I mean, plenty of non-limerent people really enjoy romance, too. đ
I think I would fight for an errant spouse, provided the limerent episode was on the wane. If the limerent episode was still in full swing, I would hold off fighting, lest my involvement add “unnecessary fuel to the fire” of limerent passion. I wouldn’t want to become the “obstacle” the limerent lovers are united against. I would play the long game, and wait for my partner to return of his/her own free will.
I would not fight for an LO under any circumstances. Why not? Because LOs, almost by definition, are unavailable people. One shouldn’t waste excessive effort on unavailable people. If someone’s unavailable, fighting for them won’t make one whit of difference to the final outcome anyhow…
This is a super-logical take on the subject. Of course – full disclaimer – limerence isn’t logical. And, as I’ve already noted, people don’t act logically or think logically while they’re in the throes of limerence. The emotional parts of the brain take over completely.
However, if anyone is curious about what “fighting for” someone looks from a strictly logical perspective, the above may represent that.
Now, just for fun, let’s throw logic aside, and ask the same question from an emotional perspective: “Should I fight for them?” Fighting for someone does make a huge amount of sense emotionally. Why? Because there are always people in this world who will be won over purely by the grand gesture of “being fought for”. I hypothesise the people most likely to endorse this sentiment are members of couples experiencing mutual limerence, where “fighting for each other” is seen as proof of passion, or the much-desired and all-important emotional reciprocation. đ
There is little purely intellectual logic to fighting for someone. In an ideal world, relationships shouldn’t be about game-playing or dramatic flourishes. However, there is a very compelling emotional logic to fighting for someone – because plenty of human beings may be won over by the mere fact they are being fought for. It’s flattering to be fought for – provided one wants to be in that position.
Sammy, I commented below before reading this but, per your sisters comment, I too have wondered whether ego plays a part. My LOs are always very attractive and admired by many. That’s my ego. They love the attention no doubt, and also know how a spell is cast, and to a degree, manipulate the other (not always consciously) to keep their own ego stroked. A tangled web no doubt.
In other words, I think my sister wanted to see more relationships between two non-limerent persons celebrated in popular culture. Maybe glamorous portrayals of limerent passion in media just set the bar too high for people who donât experience limerence at all, but still consider themselves to be deeply romantic souls at heart? I mean, plenty of non-limerent people really enjoy romance, too. đ
More people prefer or would rather experience the “Sid & Nancy” version onscreen than Jean & Lionel in “As Time Goes By”.
They think it is erotic and completely overlook or pooh-pooh the mess left in their wake.
Cleaning up after the dumpster fire or dealing with the daiky grind of life? That’s for the little unimportant, unimaginative reliable people. The ones who stand in the way of grand passion.
The second a spouse is sniffing around is the time to find an attorney and set them free emotionally. The lawyers and the court will lay out the financial cost. Spouses and children (if you are sadly encumbered with such) are interchangeable.
For ease of reading, I’ll summarise my answers in the way Dr. L suggests in his article:
Yes – this is a person I’ve already invested a lot of energy in.
Yes – there’s a high probability this person will come back to me.
Yes – certain people can be won over by grand gestures.
Yes – the very act of fighting will be perceived as “emotional reciprocation”.
No – there’s a low probability this person will come back to me.
No – the person is unavailable, period. Don’t throw good money after bad.
No – the relationship has already run its course, and both parties want to move on by mutual assent.
No – I’ve decided I don’t want a relationship that owes its start to limerence.
I’d be interested in finding out if there is a future in any LO and what problems there would be in 2 to 3 years time other than the obvious.
Yes there is under some circumstances i.e. a good LO, with whom you are genuinely compatible, whom actually wants you too.
I married an LO. But there was more to it than just limerence, we were friends and co-workers, and I knew rationally that we were very compatible. The limerence did not last but the relationship did and we have a happy contented marriage.
But my marriage has been sexless for the last 10 years or so and I think limerence had a part to play in that. Our early sex life was great purely due to my intense limerent desire thus the bar was set high, I was easy to please so my SO got away with being a complacent lover and I did not see the underlying sexual incompatibility. That desire died over time and our sex life died with it.
This is a question I’ve asked myself. eg; but they’re such a beautiful person and we’re sooo connected, aren’t we? Surely that’s worth doubling down for?
For me, I think I used the above to rationalise staying in the addiction. I knew deep down the LOs (females) were not really contributing to my life that positively. For me the limerence lasted way, way too long. And I mean, much more than the 3 years often referenced. With one we are talking on/off for the better part of a decade. The upshot was it absolutely was not worth it. I had turned down several opportunities for healthy relationships in this time, or I’d tried but the relationship failed due to limerent episodes & fantasy.
Do I want to stay with them or do I not want to stay with them. That’s the criterion. Anything else seems like fortune telling to me.
Good people don’t abuse your trust.
How does one “fight” for someone else? What actions are involved in this “fighting”? I’d argue that, as in any situation, the most important action is communication. Is someone worth fighting for? You will have to have honest communication with them to be able to ascertain that.
The trouble is … so many folks are so bad at communicating.