Some of the most distressing messages I get are from people who have been betrayed by a partner who has become limerent for someone else.
I’ve written about this topic several times in the past, but the point where I get stuck is in offering practical advice about what can be done to help.
My background is in neuroscience, and I look at limerence as a neurochemical phenomenon, an fascinating quirk of the brain that can explain the mechanisms of behavioural addiction, but also a lot of social history.
Tennov envisaged limerence as an altered mental state that had universal features which are experienced by all limerents. It’s a bold claim, but I think justifiable, which means that limerence is vulnerable to those psychological techniques that promote behavioural change. An emergency deprogramming course makes sense for systematically reversing the behaviours that reinforce limerence – for undoing a mental state which we’ve accidentally trained ourselves into.
The situation is quite different for betrayal. For someone who has just discovered their partner has “lost their heart” to a limerent object, the emotional landscape is likely to be more complicated and personal. It will depend on their limerent partner’s conduct, on how serious the betrayal is, on how they found out, and on their own personal history (and whether the pain of past betrayals gets an unwelcome revival).
The other fundamental difference is that the emotions of betrayal – resentment, anger, fear, loss, outrage, insecurity – are a response to an outside event that they cannot control. That rolls injustice, helplessness and anxiety into the mix.
As a consequence of all this, my instinct is that a self-directed cognitive behavioural approach is likely to be less useful for recovering from betrayal than from limerence. While reframing the experience and reinterpreting the meaning of feelings is always valuable, and living a purposeful life is the ultimate answer to life’s trials and suffering, the immediate aftermath of romantic betrayal is likely to need much more personalised care.
Given my uncertainty about this, I sought out some quality resources. The first is a video from Dr Ramani about betrayal trauma. It’s more focused on really serious betrayals (long-term, systematic infidelity or abuse), but it validated my intuition when it came to treatment options, and that’s how you know something is trustworthy.
Anyway, sorry. Here’s the video:
A lot of good take-aways, but perhaps the most powerful was the awful black hole of doubting everyone in your life, yourself, and feeling both ambiguous grief and also raging at the injustice of the situation.
A second video that I also found very thought-provoking is this one by Olivia Porter:
It takes a nicely provocative starting point – that hate is more useful than forgiveness – but then works magic with it. I felt weirdly optimistic at the end.
A final thought – while I hope these are useful references for those suffering betrayal due to limerence, I’d also encourage those who are currently experiencing unwanted limerence themselves to have a watch.
It’s a powerful deprogramming method to immerse yourself in the negative consequences of betrayal on those that you love.
Delusions about a bubble world of limerent compartmentalisation seem far less plausible when you hear about the wretched pain that betrayed partners wrestle with.
Sammy says
“Delusions about a bubble world of limerent compartmentalisation seem far less plausible when you hear about the wretched pain that betrayed partners wrestle with.”
Interestingly, when once enters the altered state of limerence, even if no betrayal is involved, I think one of the first things to fly out the window is any awareness of the interconnectedness of all human beings. I.e. whatever one human does affects an awful lot of other humans emotionally. Nobody exists in isolation. “No man is an island”, to quote John Donne. Limerence can make one very solipsistic in one’s perception of the world, even if one is otherwise quite clever.
When I was in limerence, I became very lost in my own thoughts, and tuned out a lot of the world. I assumed that people didn’t like me and didn’t want to be my friend, when actually the reverse was true. I had people lining up around the corner to be my friend. The people who did slip through my defences I almost intentionally pushed away. I was very self-consciously and melodramatically embracing the role of a “social outcast” aka “romantic hero”. In hindsight, I realise there was something false about the role I was choosing to play…
Hilariously, at one point, I avoided females and only interacted with males because I was only romantically interested in the latter. Then I screened which males I wished to interact with. (Almost none of them). I was definitely inventing my own bizarre social rules, and that wasn’t fair on the other people in my life.
I might sound like a terrible old fuddy-duddy, and I probably am a terrible old fuddy-duddy in some respects, but I’ve come to see that what’s good for society is much more important than what’s good for the individual. Strong ideals can often seem noble and worth defending, but they can also lead people astray. The strength and cohesion of the collective is what matters at the end of the day. Just because someone does the wrong thing, that’s not license for me also to do the wrong thing. I dislike how Western popular culture pushes hedonism so strongly, when remarkably people actually benefit from adopting a hedonistic lifestyle.
As one ages, one realises that a reputation for good character still carries a lot of weight in the modern world, and it’s nice to have the respect of one’s peers. Limerence indeed does give one the sensation/illusion of “living in a bubble”! š
Mila says
Not having watched the videos yet, I just wanted to write what came immediately into my head.
I remember clearly that when I was in the mind-altering state of high limerence, I didnāt forget about the betrayal, about the pain I could cause etc, but I couldnāt really feel it.
What I felt that, yes, to give in to limerence would be a betrayal to SO, but to kill those feelings would be a betrayal on myself. I had this feeling about having to choose between these two betrayals, and one felt as big as the other.
Out of limerence, I cannot feel this conflict as urgently and I see its flaws in perception, but I remember it clearly.
Nisor says
Hi,
Quotes for today:
āIām proud of my heart. Itās been played, stabbed, cheated, burned, but somehow still works.ā
āYou broke my heartā¦ but I still love you with all the pieces.ā
A wonderful weekend to all.āļø
Nisor says
If you want to know more on infidelity, please watch:
Lewis Howes podcast video:
ā This is how to stop your partner from cheating.ā
(Guest: Esther Perell )
Have a nice weekend.
Mike says
Hi, I would like to pose a question, which I think is relevant to this post. If a first episode is limerence is triggered and begins its course from glimmer onwards, and you have no idea what is happening at that stage. You have never heard of limerence. All you know is you feel amazing and it’s hard not to believe you may have found your dream partner. Is there anything at that stage that can prevent the experience.? Would knowing that you are unfairly contemplating upending you situation with your SO be enough to nip the LE in the bud? In other words is it inevitable that your situation with your SO becomes threatened if you have no knowledge yet about Limerence. While subsequent actions can be moderated by concern for your SO plus finding LWL and realising what is really going on, is the first ever episode and blind uninformed experience of Limerence something anyone is guilty of in any way?
Marcia says
Mike,
I don’t think you need to know about limerence to understand you have really strong feelings for someone else. And that you are either moving toward those feelings (and that person) or away from them.
Speedwagon says
Yes, I believe whether you know of limerence or not you are still responsible for your actions when when it comes to love and commitment. For those in committed monogamous long term relationships, whether in marriage or partnership, I think most people have an intrusive knowledge that commitment is an action of love and not just a feeling of in love and if you act on intense feelings of in love with someone else it is a betrayal to the one you have committed to. Knowledge of limerence does not need to be a part of that equation. For some it might be a first episode of LE and confusing and disorienting, but they know the sneaking around, the flirting, the affection, and possible affair is wrong when behind their partners back.
I didn’t know what limerence was until about 3 months in, it was my first LE since being married, and it happened 20 years in. I knew from the first few text messages I was initiating with LO that my intentions were not honorable to SO. But, by that point I also didn’t care, I loved the euphoric high. My emotional romantic self wanted LO no matter what. My reasoned self knew I was playing with fire in a water paper basket.
To answer your other question…no I don’t think there is much to stop the feelings once it crystalizes but feelings are not actions and everyone is still responsible for their actions, so at that point it becomes about controlling your actions in the midst of these intense love feelings. Certainly learning of limerence has helped squelch my stupidity to a degree. I still daydream though of a LO that feels the same as me and running off into the unknown with her. I just know now, due to LE, that the feeling is all fantasy and an illusion.
Speedwagon says
*intrinsic knowledge*
Nisor says
āI still daydream though of a LO that feels the same as me and running off into the unknown with her.ā
Speedwagon!!!
MJ says
I may not be the best person to reply to this because I currently have no SO. I will try to answer it in some way like I do.
I have probably been somewhat limerent for females my entire life. However I didn’t even know what limerence was until I found out what it was on a YouTube channel called Crappy Childhood Fairy. From there I did some Googling and found this forum.
What had happened was I had my eye upon an extremely attractive younger female that I worked with and caught her attention. There was some amazing eye contact going on between us and then one day she smiled at me. I compared that moment to being hit by a limerence meteorite. The glimmer was insane intense, and I fell so hard and so fast for this Woman, that she has been my world for well over a year now. (Mind you, I have settled for all crumbs in this experience, which makes me the real pathetic one here)
She is completely and totally my dream Woman. Giving me amazing feelings whenever I am in the vicinity of her. This has never happened to me before in this particular way.
As far as I’m concerned, this to me is limerence in its purest form. All those other relationships I had with prior females, pale in comparison to my crush on this Woman. The Sun simply rises and sets on her. And I’m not happy unless I actually see her, look at a picture of her or think of her.
You ask, “Would knowing that you are unfairly contemplating upending you situation with your SO be enough to nip the LE in the bud?”
I try to think of this situation and how I might be if I was still happily married and I think it probably would not have been worth the effort to dissolve my marriage over something I thought was only imaginary hope in my head.
If LO had happened when my marriage was solid, I think it would have been enough to nip the LE away. However my marriage kinda ended up in the trash. I wasn’t the most faithful man. So if LO came around later on and when divorce was on the radar, I probably would have dropped it all for LO. And yes probably also because at that time, I would have had no clue what limerence was.
You also ask, ” While subsequent actions can be moderated by concern for your SO plus finding LWL and realising what is really going on, is the first ever episode and blind uninformed experience of Limerence something anyone is guilty of in any way?
I hope my Friend Adam on this forum finds this post and responds to this question for you because I feel like he can answer this way better than myself. Because he is still married but had to deal with this issue significantly more than I have.
However I am still guilty as HELL, of experiencing limerence in a blind and uninformed way. I wouldn’t wish it upon anyone.
Welcome to the forum Mike. Get ready for the roller coaster ride of your life..
Nisor says
Quote:
āBetrayal Trauma
Itās like being pushed from an airplane before youāre ready and without a parachute. And while youāre free falling you look up and see the person that pushed you was your partner. Heās smirking and waving as you hit the ground. The fall breaks every bone in your body, but somehow, miraculously, you survive, BUT YOU DONāT FEEL ALIVE OR LUCKY.
See, your partner never landed the plane, never rushed to the hospital or apologized. He kept flying, picking up a new passenger along the way. It wasnāt just bones that shattered. It was your self worth, trust, safety and truth. You no longer understand love. You have met evil and it has killed A PART OF YOU BEFORE YOU WERE READY TO DIE.ā
Dr. Ramani says āthe person is experiencing a massive sense of injustice and thereās nothing you can do to make them feel whole.ā
Youāre mourning a loss without a cadaver to be buriedā¦
Betrayal is betrayal, but thereāre repeated offenders without a sliver of remorse or repentance , are also aggressive; those are the dangerous ones; anyone that puts up with that is ignorant or a fool. Got to seek help.
I also liked the second video:
Anger vs hate; anger is active (dangerous) ; hate is proactive, (movement and reasoning). Very interesting ! I think forgiveness arrives later as you move on on a more purposeful living path.
Mike says
Maybe I confused the question and I did make the point that your subsequent actions are still a choice …. however if limerence is an involuntary and altered state of mind and you do not realise what is happening, because it is the first time you have experienced it, is it reasonable to feel guilt for having a limerent reaction to another person? Were the feelings really a choice at that beginning stage? I have had situations in two decades with SO where I have felt attraction and a possibility and not acted on it in order to be faithful. I have never had a reaction to someone else of such overwhelming power until it was a limerent reaction. Should I feel guilty about becoming limerent?
Marcia says
Mike,
“I have had situations in two decades with SO where I have felt attraction and a possibility and not acted on it in order to be faithful.”
I think this is common. I’m assuming this was not all that hard to walk away from ?
” I have never had a reaction to someone else of such overwhelming power until it was a limerent reaction. Should I feel guilty about becoming limerent?”
I don’t know how common limerence is. As you wrote, it’s the first time in 20 years. So … why now? That’s what I’d ask yourself. Should you feel guilty? No, but limerence usually shows up in our lives for a reason. A reason that has to do with ourselves and not our LOs. Maybe we’re missing something. Figure out what the missing piece/reason is and you may (fingers crossed) not experience limerence again.
Mike says
Hi Marcia, thanks for your clear thoughts, I would not experience Linerence again, I would walk away now from a glimmer situation. I have had nearly two years therapy because of limerence. Experienced the vacuum inside me in a powerful theraoy session that is now filled in by me. I am much less vulnerable to getting swept away by anyone. However I am also changed and my SO had had to adapt to me confirming I no longer wish to be her SO but friendship is an option which is where we are. I am not in a relationship at all now. LO was extremely charming but I now know she has a dismissive avoidance attachment style and I have a preoccupied anxious style, a bad match! I feel guilty for becoming limerent and changing things. I am try to assess whether that is useful guilt to guide me to a better place or unreasonable self blame.
Marcia says
Mike,
” I have had nearly two years therapy because of limerence.”
It sounds like you’ve done a lot of good work on yourself. I hate that expression š but I’m not sure how else to say it.
“LO was extremely charming but I now know she has a dismissive avoidance attachment style and I have a preoccupied anxious style, a bad match! ”
Yes, that is a horrible match. The more she pulls back, the more you go after her. Maybe there is something in your past that makes you vulnerable to her type of personality. I’ve read that the best thing to do if you don’t have a secure attachment style is to find someone who does. So a secure type may make you feel and become less anxious over time, whereas an avoidant will make you feel more anxious.
“I am try to assess whether that is useful guilt to guide me to a better place or unreasonable self blame.”
It’s hard for me to answer that. All I can say is that we are all works in progress.
Limerent Emeritus says
Mike,
“Should I feel guilty about becoming limerent?
Check out:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-limerents-feel-guilty-about-their-limerence/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-do-limerents-feel-guilty/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/rationalisation/
Song of the Thread: “Guilty” Barbara Streisand (1980)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5vUkgIf7Kc
If you search the blog archives, there are a number of posts on infidelity, trust, integrity, SOs emotional and physical affairs. You can spend a lot of time on those.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/blog-archive/
Limerence can seem very compelling…to the point of knowingly acting against what you know to be your best self-interest.
Some people give in to it, some people don’t.
One of the first questions my EAP counselor asked me when I met with her was whether I was willing to sacrifice my marriage and family for LO #4. I told her that I wasn’t.
The counselor’s response: “Then the answer is easy. Get away from her and stay away from her. Stay involved with this woman and this will not end well for you.”
It took a year but I eventually got away. I either hurt her feelings, pissed her off, or both and she ended it. Not the cleanest ending but a decent ending.
Bridgelover says
I’m divorced, but it’s not because I’m a limerent type, but I worry that if I ever get repartnered, I might get limerent for someone else. I hope I won’t. I hope that if I get repartnered, I’ll put all my energy into my new partner’s health and happiness.
Mike says
Thanks to Marcia and Limerent Emeritus for your thoughtful, helpful words and links. I guess as Marcia says “we are all works in progress” and as George Michael said “guilty feet they got no rythym”
Mila says
Thank you Mike for clarifying this song line for me, I (not english-spoken) always understood āguilty fever got no rhythmāš
Limerent Emeritus says
āguilty feet they got no rythymā
From the song: “Careless Whisper” by George Michael (1984) [The zenith of my time with LO #2]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m6en0SQNFs
Marcia says
Why wouldn’t you post the actual video so we can enjoy the luciousness that was George Michael? š
Limerent Emeritus says
Why? Two reasons.
1. I usually try to post links that show lyrics.
2. “… The luciousness that was George Michael” thought never entered my head.
Marcia says
You don’t need to post lyrics with him. His voice is very clear.
And George Michael was an artist who needed to be heard and SEEN to really have the full experience. š
Limerent Emeritus says
Marcia,
“You donāt need to post lyrics with him. His voice is very clear.” – Point conceded
“And George Michael was an artist who needed to be heard and SEEN to really have the full experience. š” – To you, maybe…
Marcia says
āAnd George Michael was an artist who needed to be heard and SEEN to really have the full experience. šā ā To you, maybeā¦
Yes, he was known for asking fans to wear blindfolds at his shows because he knew nopbody was interested in looking at him. The fans just screamed their heads off at his voice.
Limerent Emeritus says
Marcia,
š
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izGwDsrQ1eQ
It has lyrics. My bad.
Happy now?
Marcia says
Yes. Fantastic. As long as I can still see his hair. š
Jackie D. says
Mike – you keep coming back to not wanting to feel guilty, so much so that you have tried to limit this to “at least I don’t have to feel guily for the first time, right?”
Here’s my tip: stop calling it guilt. Call it responsibility. If you accidentally knocked over my wine, you’d apologize to me and take ownership even though you didn’t actually intend to spill my wine. Now make the wine my trust in you as my husband. I think you see where I’m going with this. You’re focusing on labels, not the effect on your partner. If your partner is saying they forgive you but making you feel guilty anyway, then I get where you’re coming from. But if this is about assuaging your conscience, then that’s something for therapy that will likely include couple’s therapy.
You sound like you are trying to do the hard work, and that’s the big part. I hope that your SO sees that as well because I can tell you from first-hand experience that seeing him do the hard work was the only way I was able to get where I am now. Don’t worry about the terminology, just do the work. Show that you understand now and are doing the work and I am sure that things will get better.
Olive says
For me the craziest thing is that I was able to recover from betrayal by my husband in one year. He chose his LO over me, we had lots of contact after the breakup bc young kids. I think importantly, I had not been limerent toward him. And now, I am suffering hell from a 2-month affair (he cheated, not me) that happened 2,5 years ago. We both were limerent towards each other, but he chose his girlfriend over me. Sadly no contact is not possible. Ugghā¦
Nisor says
Limerence seems to be a curse more than anything else.
Thereās always a ā Rebeccaā involved in each relationship to mess up things between two people.
Book āRebeccaā , Daphne du Maurier
Nisor says
Real cheating story, incredible emotional experience, and how to cope with it.
Site : The diary of a CEO/
ā She cheated on me and thatās not all.ā( DR Ariaās true story )
Pilates says
My SO was limerent for a co-worker for about a year (guessing this as I can’t be sure exactly but from our discussions and their behavior, it was about a year.) Looking back, what I find most distressing was not their behaviour (very classic textbook limerence) but my own in the wake of the betrayal. I did some really unethical things in response to it. My worst self emerged. In the end, the betrayal taught me more about myself and I did not like that person. I also recognized that it could have been me in the unsanctioned relationship. I have been limerent before, so I recognized all the signs. As hard as it was, I do value what I learned from the experience.
Jackie D. says
I also got caught in the trap of thinking whatever I did was okay because I was the betrayed one. I do believe that the betrayer, even if they are limerent and feel that the feeling can’t be controlled, has to do the hard work. But the spouse/partner who isn’t limerent needs to do work also if they want the relationship to work. I don’t give limerents a free pass to do whatever they want and just shrug, but I also don’t give the non-limerents a free pass to punish the limerent for the rest of their lives.
Good for you learning about yourself. I hope you’re doing well now.
Serial Limerent says
At the moment neither LO nor I have made any advances to take the LE beyond the occasional flirtation at church…. I have been noting the pain of betrayal in stories of actual affairs, how it devastates people, and using that to remind myself to stay on the right path. Several months ago I even watched the latest film version of the story of Candy Montgomery and Allen Gore, then read the book. It is a stark reminder of just how badly things can go wrong.
Limerent Emeritus says
Clip of the Day: https://www.gocomics.com/rudypark/2023/10/12
Darrin Bell is also the creator of “Candorville.” I love his work!
I was an affair partner back in college but they weren’t married. LO #2 told me that she was an affair partner. I think LO #4 might have been but I have no hard evidence to base it on.
If you’re unattached, being an affair partner is like driving the getaway car at a bank robbery. Technically, YOU didn’t rob the bank…
Adam says
But you may have robbed people you may not have even know of something. Affairs of any kind are despicable. And limerence is not too far behind. Excuse me Iām 27 hours awake, covid positive and a bit drunk already. Please don’t take it personal L.E. I get what you are saying. But being blatantly propositioned by a married young lady a few years ago I have little tolerance for such behavior.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
https://livingwithlimerence.com/infidelity-and-limerence/#comment-4056
There was no explicit commitment, e.g., engaged, and LO #1 didn’t shut me down. In college, as far as I was concerned, she was fair game.
I knew what I was doing.
It’s an explanation, not an excuse.
Adam says
Yes I understand there are reasons why affairs happen just like limerence. I apologize for being judgemental. I can see the reasons for my limerence. And Im not proud of those reasons but I recognize them. Im not in the best of conditions today and I value your input here.
Limerent Emeritus says
Adam,
I don’t see you as being judgmental.
Betrayal is in the eye of the betrayed. I have a very low tolerance for betrayal. Only two people have ever been in a position to romantically betray me and I don’t think either of them ever did.
If they did they were smart enough to keep their mouths shut and good enough to pull it off without me catching wind of it.
Good dialog requires both people are using the same definitions and criteria for evaluation. Then consensus or disagreement is rooted in mutual understanding.
My definition of infidelity is when either party acts outside a mutually understood and agreed to definition what defines fidelity.
LO #2 specifically negotiated those terms.
My wife and I just knew those terms. At least, I thought I knew. It turned out that I didn’t and it almost destroyed our marriage in under 2 years. Her bar for what she considered infidelity/betrayal was pretty low and I crossed it.
Peter says
This may be of interest to some readers.
https://www.chumplady.com/2023/10/secret-sexual-basements-an-interview-with-dr-omar-minwalla/
Snowpheonix says
Stoicism: To do harm is to do yourself harm; To do an injustice is to do yourself an injustice.
Buddhism: peace and happiness are generated within.
Christianity ā whole Bible
From these three perspectives: abusers in the secret sexual basements mentally āsufferā more ā there is NO sustainable peace (Besides fleeting gratification), than the ignorant abused upstairs (unknowns cannot hurt), especially before the truth uncovered. Afterwards, if the abused can see and accept the unchainable fact and chooses to firmly walk away, the suffering can be reduced. Of course, viewing from the society, the abusers need to be condemned; despite their internal āsufferingā insightfully depicted by Dostoyevskyās āCrime and Punishmentā.
Since the beginning of human history, this world is imperfect ā 80% flawed and 20 % is evolving, hopefully for betterā¦.
Itās just my āfatalistā view, while Selfishly trying not to be an āabuserā to suffer FIRSTā¦ Again, othersā SO ā a concept, is NOT my concern. š
Peter says
Thank you for reinforcing my views about those who call themselves limerent.
[Personal attack deleted by Dr L]
Adam says
Well committed partners that are ignorant of what is going on with their committed partner aren’t going to see the behavior as anything other than an affair. Even if it is just an EA. My wife thought I was having one myself long before I learned what limerence was and disclosed it to her. I don’t think she saw it as anymore than me indulging in an EA.
Now I think that she maybe more understanding. But at the same time frustrated that I still struggle a bit with this more than a year later since I last saw her.
I never crossed a line with her (she was single) professionally, romantically or sexually. But that tiny voice in the back of my head that was trying to scream over limerence knew I wouldn’t be this “friendly” with her if my wife was there with me. That means despite limerence we must take responsibility for our actions in the past and presences of limerence.
I don’t think limerents are as per say “abusers” as the same as a married man actively perusing a woman that is unavailable or unavailable to him for the express purpose of an affair of some kind. But (big but here) we do have to own up to the fact that we behaved in a way that was unfair to our spouse with another person whether it “went too far” or not.
Snowpheonix says
Youāre welcome! š
So glad that here is not an Echo Chamber! šš¼
Snowpheonix says
@Adam,
Your passage/case has just reinforced my stand.
āWell committed partners that are ignorant of what is going on with their committed partner arenāt going to see the behavior as anything other than an affair. Even if it is just an EA.ā
Very true. I assume that mature, committed partners know or have learned about each other well enough (despite we all evolve constantly). If something in the relationship is detected going off the rail, two grownup partners should communicate and explore what is going on. If honest and brave enough to each other, then discuss about why a blurry EA is emerging in the horizon. If worrying about hurting SO, the explore issue with a therapist.
āMy wife thought I was having one myself long before I learned what limerence was and disclosed it to her. I donāt think she saw it as anymore than me indulging in an EA.ā
Youāre wise to disclose to your wife. Your wife is very mature in her thinking and feelings. Is a third party (LO) needed here to worry about her wellbeing?
āNow I think that she maybe more understanding. But at the same time frustrated that I still struggle a bit with this more than a year later since I last saw her.ā
It proves that she is a wise SO, more understanding of you than you yourself. Our human emotions are highly complex and constantly changing ; in terms of limerence, our brain is in an addictive mode that most of us was previously ignorant. So any frustrations on both sides are natural and totally comprehensible; itās between you two. On this stage, is a concern of third party (LO) needed?
āI never crossed a line with her (she was single) professionally, romantically or sexually.ā
Youāre holding an admirable responsibility for both your wife and your LO here. Carrying all morality or social convictions within you, you held up your line, faithful to your wife and respectable to LO (regardless she reciprocate your LE or not). Is a third party (LO) needed here to worry about your SO? Whatās going on between you and your SO, or in your own head, is NOT her responsibility, but YOURS.
āBut that tiny voice in the back of my head that was trying to scream over limerence knew I wouldnāt be this āfriendlyā with her if my wife was there with me. That means despite limerence we must take responsibility for our actions in the past and presences of limerence.ā
Yes, you as the limerent here, holds the key responsibility. And even if you LO initiates a seductive move, YOU need to resist your limerence, if you truly love your wife. Your SO is your responsibility, NOT your LOās duty. Please do NOT subtly shift the blame or guilt to LO. It takes two hands to play Ping-Pong!
āI donāt think limerents are as per say āabusersā as the same as a married man actively perusing a woman that is unavailable or unavailable to him for the express purpose of an affair of some kind.ā
Limerence as an UNWANTED neurochemical addiction has made limerents suffered a great deal in illusions, mental and physical pains, and even financial or daily functional ruins. Limerents are NEVER active devils, and limerence evil! A big portion of historical creativities in arts and inventions comes out of (un)required limerence for hundreds of years.
In the case of āmarried man actively perusing a women weather (un)available, the morality hammer is on HIM. In the case of a absence of his remorse and internal suffering, his SO has to face the reality and asks, āHave I married a right person? Can this relationships be saved?ā Myself was ācasuallyā cheated by my SO (LO#4P) 4 times (more flings not LEs, between the engagement and wedding), I forgave him within a couple of months and we decided to make it work. I had two big glimmers during the marriage, but did not interact with two LOs; just held the LE in my head, which SO detected currently but did not make any fuss. Our divorce was not related to any affair on either side.
āBut (big but here) we do have to own up to the fact that we behaved in a way that was unfair to our spouse with another person whether it āwent too farā or not.ā
Yes, as a limerent or LO, our behaviors have big impact on our SO, but you cannot shift these responsibilities to the third party ā our LOs or our limerents. Theyāre āpulled inā as a bystander of our limerence, which calls for a broader and deeper examination on our life.
I would take responsibility for my āownā (as if we could really own any waking human being) SO, but NOT anyone elseās SO. I trust they are mature and strong enough to take care of their own business with their loving yet ātroubledā partners/spouses. If those partners/spouses (as a LO or a limerent) are somehow attracted to my complex self, itās NOT my problems, but their own; love me or hate me, stay or depart is their choice. I only take care of not Initiating the cross of the lineā¦
Blaming on all sorts of external villains is easy but futile, it will NOT change facts and take away internal frustrations and sufferings. (Most posters here have proved my point!). Each person is on their own for their overall mental and physical wellbeing. All social convictions and morality codes, medicine and therapies are just useful assistants. The true peace and happiness have to be cultivated and can only be generated within oneās mind and psyche.
Snowpheonix says
Typo: which SO detected ācorrectlyā but did not make any fuss. One could not control oneās emotions, but (re)actions regarding those emotions.
Adam says
Not to take your well thought out responses to my post Snowphoenix, I actually had only one intention to come here. But with your posts above Peter’s I got distracted.
While I was sick with covid between 10/12-10/17 my wife and I had a lot of time to spend together. And our conversations varied. This issue came up while we were both outside, me trying to get the strength to help her with landscaping while sick. She had an emotional breakdown right in our front yard. Possibly hedge clippers still in hand.
She cried and begged me not to leave her. I don’t think I have ever seen her go to pieces like that except for maybe at a funeral of a family member. It is my responsibility to fix this. And that means concentrating on what is still left between us, and working to build on that. Not distracting myself.
Snowpheonix says
@Adam
Iām sorry to hear about your sickness with Covid, gosh, itās still here! (I had the new vaccine about 3 weeks ago).
Iām sorry if I misunderstood your original messageās intention. My main point is still that despite all your sufferings, youāve held you line responsible for your wife and LO, youāve been working with your wife trying to put this one-year LE behind and improving your relationship. Itās admirable, and I see you as a model SO for your SO.
I had one breakdown in my life and truly understand what fear (imagined or realistic) and vulnerability meant (I had to take SSIR for 5.5 years); itās debilitating. In your case (only based on what I scanned here in LwL), only YOU and your Wife could help and support each other (perhaps with some professionals) to pass this difficult time. In addition, I think some kind of specific physical, coping mechanism, such as GYM, or home-based workout, or Yoga, can ease mental and physical pains.
Adam, be better soon!
Adam says
Thank you Snowphoniex
I have tried to be a good husband, and I appreciate your kind words. I feel that I need to take action now and try to undo what I did.
I do try to keep my mind occupied. It’s the best thing for me right now. But perhaps taking back up my evening walks that I use to do would be good for me.
Snowpheonix says
@Adam,
As far as I know from your talk here, youāve been a good husband without crossing any red line. Why do you sound āguiltyā?
We have all sorts of emotions that come and go, beyond our logical mindā control; limerence is just one of them, more intense. As long as we do not act out on some negative ones, weāre guilty free! A THOUGHT OR EMOTION is NOT a crime! I hope your wife could understand this point.
Why do you need to āUNDOā something? What did you do? Iām confused here.
Physical exercises always help with any type of stressed mind. Just DO some kinds without questioning how they work, they WORK! My physical workout along meditations are working more efficient than all talking therapies Iāve had in the past. Iām even trying to use them to ābattleā the Empire ā the powerful Unconsciousā¦
Jackie D. says
@Adam Keep doing the work, but you don’t have to beat yourself up until the end of time. I don’t agree with SnowPhoenix’s minimization of your behavior as it necessarily minimize’s your wife’s hurt, but I’m telling you as a betrayed spouse that hard work matters. It may take a while for your wife, but listen to what she said. She’s afraid of losing you. That’s why I don’t like the minimization of effect (“just an EA”) because that behavior introduces doubt into a relationship. So when someone acts like an EA is somehow less painful and not as serious, I can tell you someone who almost certainly has never been the betrayed partner.
You’ve taken ownership and I’m proud of you for doing that. I hope you are both in therapy, including couple’s therapy. Saying what we’d said to each other in front of a nonjudgmental professional saved my marriage.
Adam says
“but Iām telling you as a betrayed spouse that hard work matters.”
Jackie
I am very glad to have that perspective. My wife has occasionally posted comments here. For the most part most of the community is limerents or former limerents. There are far too little spouses of limerents here to give their side of the story. My wife doesn’t post often but she does read. I know cause she might just call me out on something I posted š It’s good to have you here Jackie and good to hear that from your other comment that you and your husband are doing well moving past limerence and strengthening your bond with each other. Hoping for the best for both of you and your marriage.
Nisor says
Adam hi,
Iām so worried for you being sick and your wife having a nervous breakdown in front of you. It must be very hard for both of you at this time. I hope and pray the Lord have mercy and heal your SO and you and bring peace to your household. I also think you should consider counseling this time around because your SO is at the end of the rope and is not a healthy situation for both of you and the boys. I understand itās hard on you whoās suppose to face the consequences as the head of the household. This is not going to be fixed with time, it needs action now. Please, when you get passed Covid, get a therapist or counselor. You canāt handle this alone. Let us know how your SO is doing , we care for
you both. šŖš½ā¤ļø Best wishes and a tight hug .
Adam says
Thank you Nisor
I may not be convinced in God again, but I watched this video yesterday on youtube and reading your comment reminded me of it. The video made a lot of good points. The last one especially spoke to me. It is where I am right now.
I will talk to my wife about therapy. She’s been through it before so she can help in finding the right therapy and therapist for us. It’s just hard for me to open up. My wife is the only one that knows everything about me. Stuff my parents don’t even know. Anyway ….
God Is Not Removing Your Feelings For Someone Because ….
https://youtu.be/eYT8CwlKkIw?si=QCzdppYuoh2ggBOR
Nisor says
Hi Adam,
Nice video, ā taking steps in the right directionā is what you and SO need to do. You guys are suffering when you can do something about it now.
ā We donāt have to wait for our feelings to change before we start moving forward in our lives.ā
Iāll be very glad for you if SO and you go to therapy.
When two are in a hole you need a third person to pull you out. Donāt be stubborn like a wild horse, ha, give therapy a try. See, C for cat is doing it and is coming along with flying colors. You both will too.
Hugs to you both. Have a pleasant weekend.
Adam says
Well I am a stubborn wild horse. But I will try not to be. I don’t like opening up to strangers. But I think if it was a female therapist I could open up. I just find talking to women easier than men.
The only person in the world I have been completely venerable to is my wife. I don’t like the thought of that with someone else.
Serial Limerent says
I’ve been following this poor guy’s story on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/user/DontbeaDumbbell/
He really got people talking because his wife suddenly up and abandoned him and their kids and ghosted them for days, then he found out her affair partner had died. They’d been carrying on for four years, she was in love–and it turned out she was just one of several to him. She sounds like she may have been limerent. A month ago, we found out she died, but no details. It’s a reminder not just of how lives can be blown up by affairs, but of unscrupulous LOs.
Nisor says
Adam, good morning.
If itās a female therapist youā ll do itā¦ so be it! Just donāt drag this any longer. You can do it. Trust your wife, maybe she doesnāt want to carry your vulnerabilities alone, maybe itās a burden and needs to share with someone else she can trust. Do not be afraid and be humble . Nothing to lose. It all be alright and youāll feel free. Youāll see.
š« hugs for both of you.
Yvon says
So my situation has a different angle. Please I would love any insights and recommendations. I am in a situation where I feel betrayed by my LO who I thought was my friend and a good person of character. I am facing grief from the replayed rejection and also from the betrayal of friendship and loss of shared community. I am beside myself . I didnāt have a choice to keep my distance when he rejected me because we had a shared professional community and friend group. He told me we should not date because we were leaders in this community, but now he is dating another leader and prior was also dating a member I didnāt know about. I am devastated and I am the needing to step back for the my own health and for the sake of the professional community. So he gets the girl, the community, and the merit and I am heartbroken and in grief and major loss. Limerence is insidious.
ABCD says
Hi Yvon. I feel your pain. As much as the non-acceptance of LO hurts, what makes recovery even more difficult is that you are in similar circles – both inside office and outside office. No contact is the best way to get out of this, but for you, it is not possible right now. Still, you can take steps. With the passage of time, you will feel better. Right now, you need to stay strong, and keep your interactions with LO as work related and formal as possible. If you can get by without interacting with LO as much as possible, try that. You will feel a mix of negative emotions right now, but trust me, it will get better. There are many members here that have been in a similar situation of work-related LOs, and they are feeling better. Good luck!
Yvon says
Thank you so much for the encouragement , yes I have submitted a leave of absence and have a close friend in the group I can confide in but we are both keeping silent for the sake of the professional community. I am just so heartbroken as I have had to detach from my tribe for my own health and for the sake of keeping the community.
why says
Seems quite like a common theme in quite a lot of communities, even smaller ones like the sub-culture communities that I was part of, especially when an alternative lifestyle like ethical non-monogamy is acceptable. Sometimes it could even get more dramatic when emotional and/or physical abuse is involved. Hence, there is a lot of work needed to be done to sort things out via problem-solving and lots and lots of communication, without shunning each parties that is directly, or indirectly involved.
On top of my mind, is that the first thing to do is find your closest supporter or group and refrain from trying to “badmouth” LO. It’s tempting when a betrayal is involved, but, do understand that during the darkest hours, and in a close-knit community, it’s hard to make people choose sides as there are many gray areas of involvement of work, projects, community, friendship, etc. with both or more parties.
Together with people you can trust, keep on maintaining the same community work that you’ve been doing while trying to go LC (low contact) with LO, if NC (No Contact) isn’t possible. I understand how important it is to have a community or a place where we have a sense of belonging and something we personally have worked on for many years. Having to remove ourselves due to relationship problems would not just be a great loss for ourselves, but also to the community as a whole, IMO.
Here’s a quick link about ENM, or ethical non-monogamy. I think there are a few online resources on how to navigate conflict in ENM, but from what I could read in your short comment is that your LO is probably on a “less ethical” side of things if you’ve felt betrayed somehow. Nonetheless, it’s a good read to understand how to discuss this with your supportive friends in the community if needed.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-ethical-non-monogamy-5176515
Yvon says
Thank you for the information. Yea it was shocking what I learned as he presents himself as someone of good and professional character. If anything he could have atleast gone fishing outside the professional community. Unfortunately for my own sake I have had to temporarily remove myself from the community and l am not bad mouthing him to people, and I am only seeking consolation and support from a few safe confidants. Itās so hard because I feel the loser here having to take the hit for the best of the community when he is doing the opposite.
Bewitched says
Hi Yvon,
I am sorry to hear that you are in turmoil.
A few others have commented that, with limerence a unambiguous rejection, though brutal, can be a blessing in disguise. It can make the whole LE shorter and easier to come to terms with. The loss of hope / bargaining phase is something many of us draw out for far too long. But if there is an unambiguous rejection and even worse, a ‘betrayal’, then this bargaining phase should hopefully not be a factor – I hope?
Instead of relying on your professional community, why don’t you rely on us lot here, for a while? Its maybe for the best that you withdraw a little bit from work friend group – just for for a little while – to lick your wounds. Other people in your life (not work mates but friends outside work) may be very helpful to reach out to, because you probably don’t want to start any rumours within work friend group/community.
It sounds as though you do not have the barrier of an SO? This is a blessing.
It might not seem like it now but time does heal.
Sending warmest wishes.
Yvon says
Thank you so much. As painful as all this is, it is a blessing. His original rejection was ambiguous because he said if it werenāt for us being leaders in the professional community, he would be interested to go further. So because I kept having to see him and we stayed friends my hope was kept alive, no matter how much I tried to repress my feelings. Though the revelation of his true character was not a direct rejection, this betrayal has definitely cut the bargaining. Itās funny I was struggling a lot this past holiday season with my limerence and I prayed to God to reveal something about him that would make my limerence stop. Boy did I get an answer to my prayer! But I was thinking more like hair growing out of his ears or a third nipple, something along those lines! LOL
Nisor says
Hi Yvon ,
Indeed limerence is insidious, we, at LwL know very well how bad it is when one is rejected. As Bewitched said, stick around here to āleak your wounds since your support group is at work. And, yes, donāt confide to anyone in close relation to him. What he did itās obvious, he doesnāt want you, the excuse he gave for not dating you and then go and the opposite is very telling. That right there should be your focus to get him off your head, heās a liar ! Liars donāt deserve your attention or wasting a minute of your thoughts on them. Pick up the pieces, be stoic and move on. You deserve better. Rejection brings thoughts of loss of self esteem and self devaluation, insecurity etc.etc. But you have to think that youāre worthy, lovable, enough, valuable, and he doesnāt know how to appreciate your qualities, and values. So have self respect and dignity and get out of the circle and go No Contact with him. Donāt reach out to him, be strong and stubborn on your decision , that will show him you are a dignified, different kind of person; he doesnāt deserve you. Have pride. Donāt be needy and clingy. Maybe better ācandidates ā are watching you to approach youā¦ who knows! Someone will show up along the way to replace him very soon.
I know, it hurts like a bastard now, but youāll get over it. Thereās no pain that lasts a hundred years, nor a body that can bear with itā¦
Be strong and resilient. Wishing you courage and patience. May peace come surround you on this journey to recovery.
Yvon says
Thank you so much, the advice I have been reading here is also aligning to advice I received from my counselor and safe friends. Yes he does not deserve my friendship or aretention and I know this mourning will end at some point. Confronting him would be of no good use to me right now and would only pile on drama and not bring peace. Though the rejection is part of it, I am mostly mourning my community, my tribe that I will need to stay away from for now for my own sake and also to protect the community. I worked so hard to build a good leadership team and to create an encouraging and safe professional community for awesome people to connect and find friendship and acceptance. Now I am having to step back because it is no longer my safe space due to him and the other girls being there and my heart is so broken. I saw pictures from their meeting yesterday and I was just crying and crying and felt so angry at him. But this is my reality for now. Lessons being learned in a very hard way. I hope to never be limerant over someone again. Thank you all for the encouragement in this community.
Sammy says
“Indeed limerence is insidious, we, at LwL know very well how bad it is when one is rejected. As Bewitched said, stick around here to āleak your wounds since your support group is at work. And, yes, donāt confide to anyone in close relation to him. ”
@Yvon.
Betrayal is indeed an awful feeling. And if there’s a whole community you must now avoid for a while, as well as an individual, then you likely feel a little bit betrayed by that whole community as well as by the LO. It’s never a nice feeling, feeling like one is the odd one out, or feeling like one has done something wrong when one hasn’t.
I’d echo Nisor’s advice not to confide in people close to LO, especially if it’s a professional community. Best case scenario: this will only lead to drama and gossip and people picking sides in the most juvenile fashion. And I don’t think anyone ever comes off looking good when drama occurs – everyone comes off looking as ridiculous and immature and unhinged as the next person! A pie-throwing contest would be more edifying. šš
In private, of course, admit to yourself that your feelings are deeply hurt. Find “safe people” – unrelated to your work environment – to confide in if you can. In public, maintaining a dignified silence is best.
If someone genuinely has bad character, that bad character will eventually manifest in a variety of ways, and people will learn not to trust that person who keeps exhibiting dubious traits. If your LO is truly a man of bad character, eventually the shady side of him will come out for all to see. You don’t need to expose him. Nor do you need to gloat over his eventual downfall. Schadenfreude is not a very healthy attitude, in my opinion. But take comfort in the thought bad character always outs itself. š
There are probably many people in your community who dislike your LO and many people in your community who are fond of you and think you’ve been treated badly. These people will never speak up out of fear. They don’t want to rock the boat. They don’t want to jeopardise their own fragile sense of belonging in the group. However, many years in the future, you may learn “through the grapevine” that these people always admired you, and the admiration they felt/feel for you only increased due to the dignified way they saw you handle a tricky situation.
You have to continue being the best human being you can be. You have to rise above chaos. Imagine yourself like a magnificent golden eagle. š
Snowpheonix says
Sammy, Yvon,
āSchadenfreude (a word I have been looking forā¦) is not a very healthy attitude, in my opinion. But take comfort in the thought bad character always outs itself. @Sammy
In the East (through Buddhism and Hinduism), the belief of Karma is strong in most laymenās mind, while cursing is considered as superstitious, serving as a āhealthyā means to vent out anger. Even if people are āgoodā enough not to actively take revenge ā a tooth for a tooth, on those who have hurt them through āinjusticeā , schadenfreude is still understandable and accepted. The wronged ones and bystanders just say, āLook, itās Karmaā.
The stories of bad and good Karma out of evil and good deeds, respectively, passed to kids since they are young, as one way to warn and frighten potential bad behaviors.
For non-Christians in the East, many openly or secretly wish/curse a bad luck would fall upon on bad people (LOs) ā Karma needs to work! But when such a wish is granted, two groups of people would emerge: 1. They (LOs) deserve it, we are even nowā schadenfreude 2. Itās a Karma! Regrettable, their bad deeds have brought it ā Buddhism/Hinduism.
When this happened to my cruel LOs, I have had both attitudes swinging back and forth inside me, depending on my moods. In a short while, Iād feel #1; but ultimately in a long run Iād feel #2ā¦.
However, some perceived bad lucks might be a blessing in disguise in a long run, depending on different perspectives from the āsufferersā from both sidesā¦ So wishing or causing is futile, Karma has its own routeā¦.
Like many others already said here: just disengage yourself from LO and heal yourself with trusted friends or in solitude.
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“In the East (through Buddhism and Hinduism), the belief of Karma is strong in most laymenās mind, while cursing is considered as superstitious, serving as a āhealthyā means to vent out anger. Even if people are āgoodā enough not to actively take revenge ā a tooth for a tooth, on those who have hurt them through āinjusticeā , schadenfreude is still understandable and accepted. The wronged ones and bystanders just say, āLook, itās Karmaā.”
Ah, I can see very clearly what you mean here. You’ve written a very good explanation. š
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
A very bad luck did fall on my LO last Tuesā¦ the angry part of me says he deserves it ā schadenfreude; the shocked part of me superstitiously suspects that all my unrealistic dreams somehow āpsychedā it; the dominant part of me genuinely feels terrible that an unforeseeable storm just arrived on a sunny dayā¦ No one can help it!
I planned more LC before the opening day of school, then had to abort the plan completelyā¦ and even increased charitable contacts just to show my sympathies, which could lead to misunderstandings againā¦ In limerence or not, I was never and will never be an affection ābeggarāā¦
One can NEVER say āItās a Karmaā to an unfortunate receiver, even if she or he is indeed oneās āenemyāā¦. Iām not worried how I would behave with my professional mask on, but a bit shaky to observe what has been swinging inside me for a whole weekā¦ and wonder whether Iām actually hypocritical or meanā¦
When a crisis strikes, some buried truth would bubble up from the Unconscious ā my limerence is not totally over yetā¦ everything around me is a kind of surreal nowā¦. Itās very hard to tell if there is blessing in disguise in a long runā¦
Nisor says
Snow hi,
Karma in Christianity is taken as a ācurseā.
That is, when destiny pays one back for oneās bad deeds. We can even curse ourselves when we say negative words towards ourselves. Thatās why it says in the proverbs, that words can bring death or life, according to oneās words. (what people call in todayās lingo, positive thinking.) Also, our world is framed by our spoken wordsā¦ out of our mouths come whatās in our hearts!
Letās think beautiful , affirming things in our mindsets. I have a niece who looks at herself in the mirror every morning , before going to work , and says to herself, ā Iām beautiful, radiant, lovable, unique, intelligent, confident, in charge, and nothing will derail me of my purpose.ā
She says she immediately feels good and confident to confront and conquer the world!
I perceive youāre going through some difficulties at work this semester? Donāt have to tell us, but whatever it is, letās put it in Godās mighty hands , and let His mercy work a miracle for you, and protect you of all evil.
Have a great day . HugsšŖš½
Yvon says
I am learning so much from you all. I am grateful for this new community. š I literally just googled āhow to get over betrayal from a limerant objectā LOL
Schadenfreude Is definitely a very tempting attitude to fall on and when I have my moments of anger at the injustice of the situation and fantasize about me punching him or going to confront him, it seems like itās a second best alternative. But no, at the core of who I am, I would wish no harm to him or to anyone. Last night I finally just prayed for him and left him to God and that he may become a better man. I am sure later I will feel anger again, just showing me that I am nowhere near ready to go back to the community or to confront him. I will hold my head high and will be the better person. Thank you again everyone!
Snowpheonix says
Hi Nisor,
Then Karma is a āclashā between Christianity and Buddhism/Hinduism? I grew up with the later, and could not help leaning on it, powerlessly and passively observing life (others especially) unfolding on its own, most of time (80%) unpredictable, illogical, and (in)justly. Bad or good fortunes have fell on people whether they deserve it or not, throughout the history.
āWe can even curse ourselves when we say negative words towards ourselves.ā
This sounds superstitious to me š, I do not believe curses or affirmation. As a half Stoic and half Buddhist trained with engineering and liberal arts, I try to (often forget) remember the following:
āToday I might feel disappointed, lonely, depressed, angry, empty, jealousy, anxious, fearful, meaningless, insecure and panic.They are due to my emotional flashbacks. They may come but WILL always pass. ā. A dose of pessimism is quite mentally healthy, keeping my wishful thinking in check!
āChoose not to be harmed, you wonāt feel harmed
Donāt feel harmed, and you havenāt been.ā ā Marcus Aurelius
The same misfortunate fell on me in last August, LO knew it in June but did not mention a word to me in advance. The shocking was devastating to me (I hinted here that I was in a life-changing situation) LO never said āIām sorryā to me, not even once up to today. It took me the entire semester and a winter break to work on my mind (with you guysā help and my new hobbies) and to be able to face the inevitable with enough equilibrium and even some smiles now ā yesterday is gone, the future is yet to come, filled with total unknowns! Iāll deal with it one day at time.
Now, the same happened to LO (along with a bunch of others), then we all rushed to give our ācondolencesā (LOās term). I feel more sorry for him than for myself; but I could not help feel IT is Karma, a half of it. I only hope my sympathy would not somehow make me fall back into this nearly-dead limerence.
Thank you for your sincere good wishes š Iām happy that your God is working with you. But I do not and will not adopt any external godsā¦ Only me could save me! šŖ
Have a good day! Hugs!
Nisor says
Snow hi,
Perhaps I donāt understand very well what Karma is , or donāt understand it at all. And I canāt compare it to Christianity to see where or how they clash. You know, these studies of philosophies take years of learning and studying and it cannot be explained or discussed in a few texts on this blog.
When itās said one can curse oneself by his/her own words, most likely means, putting negative thoughts on your mind. He/she is not aware of the damage itās causing to their own thinking . Letās say itās negativity. Example: a person is supposed to go for a job interview, and gets frightened about it, and starts thinking he/she is not qualified enough, the interviewer may not like them, etc, this negativity gets to the point where he/she gets so afraid they donāt go for the interview at all. Result: no job, no income, the consequences are dire etc. The person created his/her own ācurseā for no reason at all. Whereas if she/he has been positive, they would at least go the the interview, regardless if they get the job or not, at least they took the first step. I donāt know if Iām explaining myself or confusing you more.
āChoose not to be harmed, you wonāt feel harmed. Donāt feel harmed, and you havenāt been.ā
– Marcus Aurelius
I gather that Marcus Aurelius is pushing one to āchooseā to be positiveā¦ what one think is what one gets.
Sammy, please help! Iām running out of steam for lack of knowledge and/or command of the language. Canāt debate with a scholar like Snow or you. Too deep a territory for my humble thoughtsā¦
Piano lessons? Donāt forget Iām after you for those piano lessons.
Have a great and peaceful day. Hugs.
Sammy says
@Nisor.
“Sammy, please help! Iām running out of steam for lack of knowledge and/or command of the language. Canāt debate with a scholar like Snow or you. Too deep a territory for my humble thoughtsā¦”
I don’t think any debate is necessary, Nisor, my dear. š
I think Snow was just explaining why schadenfreude is not seen as an unhealthy response in the East, and her explanation made sense to me.
It’s natural to feel anger in response to betrayal. However, acting on that anger is very rarely wise, and physical violence is certainly never acceptable e.g. punching LO in the nose. (What Lucy gets away with in the “Peanuts” comic strip is not what people get away with in real life. We’re not little kids running around a baseball pitch. And Lucy is blessed with an extraordinarily tolerant group of friends). š
Schadenfreude isn’t acting on one’s anger. Schadenfreude is a very passive response, a belief that maybe the cosmic scales will eventually balance themselves out anyway. Good fortune happens to us all; bad fortune happens to us all. Wish good fortune to the man/woman who hurt you. But if good fortune doesn’t happen to them, well … ah … maybe the gods have spoken and maybe the gods have expressed their displeasure and who is man to oppose the gods? šš¤£
I like the Eastern perspective because it acknowledges that life consists of light and dark, good emotional experiences and bad emotional experiences, seasons of joy and seasons of sorrow. We can’t control everything. The problem with some versions of Christianity is that some versions of Christianity suggest life should be happy all the time, and believers can will this never-ending happiness into being. But a life without sadness is only half a life.
I think I am a Christian on the outside and a Buddhist on the inside. There is something about Buddhistic philosophy that just gels naturally with my personality. Apparently, many Aspergians exhibit a Buddhistic outlook, even if they know nothing of Buddhism.
Another way of looking at things: one can’t enjoy sunshine if there is no rain; one can’t enjoy sweet flavours if there are no bitter flavours; one can’t delight in pleasure if there is no pain. š
Snow says
Nisor,
āPerhaps I donāt understand very well what Karma is , or donāt understand it at all.ā
Karma is based on the idea of cause and effect related to one’s actions, that positive actions lead to positive outcomes, while negative actions lead to negative outcomes. Yet here, outcomes and actions are not necessarily directly related, outcomes often come as random lucks or result after a long time after actions. Examples:
1. Someone has always done good for others and self, but remains poor/underserved. Then, one day s/he suddenly wins a lottery out of a curious try (not a regular gambler), then thatās a good Karma, resulting from all her/his previous benevolent actions.
2. A Narc LO deceives and manipulates his/her buddhistic limerent, who is deeply hurt and angry. If good enough, s/he would neither take revenges on LO nor wish LO a good luck but perhaps quietly ācurseā: Karma will get you one day… A week later, LO slipped on a banana peel on a rainy day and broke his/her ankle (happened to my SO once), then limerent instantly reacts: Ha, itās a Karma!
Since young, kids in COO learn the concept of Karma from adults who try to use it to discipline them. Endless living examples are told in ordinary life, like your Christianity notions.
āWhen itās said one can curse oneself by his/her own words, most likely means, putting negative thoughts on your mind. ā
Oh, no. in COO, cursing is only reserved for those who, one thinks or believes, have wronged one on purpose (including tough business competition or rivalry), incidental hurts are not counted. People do not curse themselvesā¦ but strive to think and speak modestly, so as to avoid being arrogant or overly proud ā a very unappealing or detrimental virtue in the East. Here in the West the majority tries to āshow offā as a Superman!
āChoose not to be harmed, you wonāt feel harmed. Donāt feel harmed, and you havenāt been.ā
ā Marcus Aurelius
āI gather that Marcus Aurelius is pushing one to āchooseā to be positiveā¦ what one think is what one gets.ā
Youāre 120% right! Marcus Aureliusā words here are one of Stoic core principles: do not react to others actions, or even to negate common beliefs of whatās harmful. Early Mormons practiced polygamy, wives got along well with each other, did biological jealousy bother them?
Iām keeping up with 1-1.5 hour piano practice everyday and enjoy it very much ā itās so therapeutic to me but every time I begin practicing, my singer neighbor would lock her door to go outā¦.š„“. I still sprouting for fun and a bit of fresh salads ā I just love watching lives growing everyday.
I hope youāre having a nice dream nowā¦.
Sammy says
@Nisor and Snowphoenix.
Perhaps I should clarify. I don’t believe in cursing people. (Waste of time). I also don’t believe in wishing ill fortune on others. (Waste of time again). Karma is an interesting idea, but not one I worry about.
If I was going to wish bad luck on someone, however, as a mischief-loving Australian, I would have to say the following line: “May your chooks turn into emus and kick your dunny down.” š¤£š¤£š¤£
Chooks = chickens
Emus = large, flightless birds that stand as tall as a man
Dunny = outdoor lavatory, outhouse
Now, I’m sure that even ESL speakers can see the joke in this “curse”; the statement is not meant to be taken seriously. I think any normal person would be laughing so hard after uttering said curse (especially with a straight face) that they’d no longer feel any ill will toward the person they were wishing ill luck upon. š
My favourite book in the book is Ecclesiastes, because Ecclesiastes does have a very Buddhist flavour to it. E.g. God sends the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike. There’s a time for dancing and a time for mourning, etc, etc. People aren’t pretending that bad stuff doesn’t happen. There’s space for the full range of human emotions.
I think it’s important for religion (all religions) to recognise the validity of sadness as an emotion, and the validity of sadness even as a sacred emotion, because sadness is part of life. No one can feel up all the time. Sadness is part of life. Loss is part of life. Disappointment is part of life. And, yes, maybe betrayal too is a natural and inevitable part of life. (Wasn’t Christ betrayed with a kiss?) The painful feelings, however, won’t last forever. š¤š
Snowpheonix says
Nisor, Sammy
āItās natural to feel anger in response to betrayal. However, acting on that anger is very rarely wise, and physical violence is certainly never acceptable e.g. punching LO in the nose.ā
It depends who is doing punching. If a small damsel in distress/anger punched an insecure, manipulative, āwhite knightā Narc LO (obviously not a stranger), then she can get away with it,ā he would NOT hit back publicly or privately, and might even offer a makeup hug, kiss, or sex for his āredemptionā (I only did once to Narc LO #6 in my entire life, after a glass of wine over an empty stomach, and that was what I got back in return within half an hour ā¦.š) Ah, I appreciate Western chivalry š that rarely manifest in the Eastā¦
āSchadenfreude isnāt acting on oneās anger. Schadenfreude is a very passive response, a belief that maybe the cosmic scales will eventually balance themselves out anyway. Good fortune happens to us all; bad fortune happens to us all. ā
Exactly. That ācosmic scalesā is equivalent of Karma.
āWish good fortune to the man/woman who hurt you. ā
Thatās Christianity, rarely seen in more āsavagedā COO as I grew up, itās too good to be true. There itās more one tooth for one tooth a lot of times, might throughout a couple of generations, like the clan of Romeo and Juliet.
āBut if good fortune doesnāt happen to them, well ā¦ ah ā¦ maybe the gods have spoken and maybe the gods have expressed their displeasure and who is man to oppose the gods? ā
Nisor, you see how Sammy actually connects Christianity with Karmaā¼ļø I was wrong to say they are in clash. Most of ethics in various religions are very similar, if not exactly same; But their implement methods can vary a lot. Buddhism ā really more of a philosophy like Stoicism, is very passive, emphasizing observing and accepting the world and others, but cultivating and changing oneself from within. Many Western religions āgo outā to āimproveā others and change the world, thus those missionary missions, colonizationsā¦.(Iām leaving out economic aspects here)
āI like the Eastern perspective because it acknowledges that life consists of light and dark, good emotional experiences and bad emotional experiences, seasons of joy and seasons of sorrow.ā
Ah, here comes a Western ghost who sees humanistic aspects of Eastern perspectives, as natural as 4 seasons.
āThe problem with some versions of Christianity is that some versions of Christianity suggest life should be happy all the time, and believers can will this never-ending happiness into being. ā
ā¦. and if not possible all the time, there will be a Heaven out there waiting for you, just be faithful to God and do goodā¦
āBut a life without sadness is only half a life.ā
Every coin has two sidesā¦ without sadness, does happiness exist?
7 emotions and 6 desires in Buddhism are considered natural humanistic, one should accept and live with them in serenity:
joy, anger, sorrow, pleasure, love, hate, and desire.
human desire for life, desire against death, and the desires of human organs such as ears, eyes, mouth and nose for sound, color, taste and aroma. (Sex is taboo, so the pair-bonding organ is not even mentioned, too embarrassing or āimproperā to be printed in texts or openly passed down).
āI think I am a Christian on the outside and a Buddhist on the inside.ā
Ah, before this statement, what word my LO in my dream used (I almost never used the word prior to the dream and could not pronounce it correctly) ā androgynous! It sounded like āandrogynentā, and the scene ended right after LOās āah, your adndrogynentā friend!ā was deliveredā¦
By the way, there was Eastern flares on your face, with black hair and black eyesā¦ somewhat like singer Dimashā¦ but yours with straighter, sculptural facial features and much maturer, more confident expressionsā¦.
ā Apparently, many Aspergians exhibit a Buddhistic outlook, even if they know nothing of Buddhism.ā
Very interesting observations! How do they manifest Buddhistic outlook in behaviors?
āAnother way of looking at things: one canāt enjoy sunshine if there is no rain; one canāt enjoy sweet flavours if there are no bitter flavours; one canāt delight in pleasure if there is no painā
Does it not apply in limerence? Why try so hard to get rid of painful side but grasp tight of āhighā side of LE? The two sides would always co-reside side by sideā¦.
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
āI also donāt believe in wishing ill fortune Karma is an interesting idea, but not one I worry about.ā
People in the East do not spend much time or energy to āprayā for good karma or wish for bad ones. I think one needs to understand that for most underprivileged or underserved folks, a cursing when deeply hurt and harmed out of injustices, is just a way to verbally express their anger. Most mature, un-superstitious people wish a Karma when doubting its plausibility out of their wishful thinking. Personal modesty is a national characteristics.
āIf I was going to wish bad luck on someone, however, as a mischief-loving Australian, I would have to say the following line: āMay your chooks turn into emus and kick your dunny down.ā
Thatās very, very funny! š š
āI think any normal person would be laughing so hard after uttering said curse (especially with a straight face) that theyād no longer feel any ill will toward the person they were wishing ill luck upon. ā
Yes, with ānormalā people. But a cynical or deeply wounded person might say that such a light-hearted humor often comes from idle hours of folks with a āround tummyā. If they have to work 3-4 jobs or 15 hours/day to put sufficient bread on the table, or if they were physically/sexually abused as minor in the past (existing in LwL), then let see what kind of jokes theyād conjure upā¦
āMy favourite book in the book is Ecclesiastes, because Ecclesiastes does have a very Buddhist flavour to itā¦. People arenāt pretending that bad stuff doesnāt happen. Thereās space for the full range of human emotions.ā
There goes again the connection between Christianity and Buddhism. All kinds of mental or emotional states are accepted with little judgement or concerns. When my ex-father-in-law visited my COO first time for a documentary filming, he was so baffled by his observation: majority of people in the street have such an ease or smiles on their face, as if they had little or no anxieties in their life, while they appeared so āunderservedā or uneducated by western standards. Did you ever seen the old movie, āShangri-Laā
āI think itās important for religion (all religions) to recognise the validity of sadness as an emotion, and the validity of sadness even as a sacred emotion, because sadness is part of life. No one can feel up all the time. Sadness is part of life. Loss is part of life. Disappointment is part of life. And, yes, maybe betrayal too is a natural and inevitable part of life. (Wasnāt Christ betrayed with a kiss?) The painful feelings, however, wonāt last forever. ā
Oh, dear, Iām now talking to a Buddhistic/Stoical, ghost limerentā¦. š¦
Snowpheonix says
A snobbish Stoic quote:
āThere have to be shameless, unkind, ungrateful, insolent, disloyal, narcissistic people in the world. One in front of you might be just one of them. That a whole class must necessarily exist will enable you to tolerate its members.ā
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Nisor, you see how Sammy actually connects Christianity with Karmaā¼ļø I was wrong to say they are in clash.”
I think some parts of the Old Testament, particularly the so-called “wisdom literature” of the Bible, does have Buddhist themes running throughout. King Solomon apparently had many, many wives from many different cultures. It’s not impossible that some of the king’s wives brought back (early Buddhist/Hindu) ideas from Persia/the Subcontinent and influenced the King’s thinking. One would find Buddhist thought in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes…
Ecclesiastes 12 tells readers to remember the Creator while they are still young … before … the silver cord is loosed … the golden bowl is broken … the pitcher is broken at the fountain … the wheel is broken at the cistern.
Any Easterner would recognise the imagery here as Buddhist/Hindu imagery. And the wheel of course is the wheel of karma that shapes all our lives. That’s right – smack bang in the middle of the Christian Bible – there’s a poignant allusion to karma. As Solomon himself said: “There is nothing new under the sun.” Eastern religious thought fed into Judaism and through Judaism fed into Christianity.
“ā¦ somewhat like singer Dimashā¦ ”
Oh my gosh. I’m gonna sound like a fangirl, but I love Dimash! He is fabulous, isn’t he? To quote the comedian James Corden, when Dimash sings, Dimash sings the boy parts of the song and he sings the girl parts of the song and he sings the bird part of the song! š¤£
I love Dimash’s stage wardrobe too – all those amazing outfits! š
“Very interesting observations! How do they manifest Buddhistic outlook in behaviors?”
Aspies are “born Buddhists” apparently because they aren’t really motivated by materialism, don’t get caught up in drama in the same way neurotypicals do, and tend to have this strange aura of emotional detachment about them. (Doesn’t mean they’re not deeply loving people – a lot of their emotion remains hidden).
To Christians, Aspies may appear movingly Christlike. Aspies often prioritise morals over everything else i.e. living by one’s own moral code and not wavering from it. Of course, Aspies can make mistakes, just like everyone else, and adopt the wrong moral code! Aspies are beautiful souls but not infallible. š
“Does it not apply in limerence? Why try so hard to get rid of painful side but grasp tight of āhighā side of LE? The two sides would always co-reside side by sideā¦.”
Yes and no. Limerence is an altered state. Sometimes the pain felt in limerence is so strong and pervasive and intrusive that the pain really prevents enjoyment of anything. Pleasure has left the building. One is being bombarded by constant “lows”. The limerent literally feels like they are going out of their mind. Can’t eat. Can’t sleep. Can’t relax. “Sick with love” like the Shulamite (bride-to-be) in “Song of Solomon” – operative word being “sick”. š
The limerent can’t think of anything else other than LO, or desired relationship with LO. In really extreme cases, where there’s not even any bond with LO to salvage, I’d say it’s desirable for limerents to move out of the altered state so they can regain their bearings.
One can certainly appreciate the joy and sadness that limerence gives, but a lot of this joy and sadness is enjoyed retrospectively i.e. after the storm has passed through. When one is in the middle of brutal mood swings, it isn’t so easy to be philosophical about the equal value joy and sorrow bring to life. Although one may feel intensely alive, one simultaneously feels that one is mad and alone and flailing. I.e. one has lost contact with the mothership. š
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Oh, dear, Iām now talking to a Buddhistic/Stoical, ghost limerentā¦. š¦”
Is it such a disappointment to encounter someone whose mind runs along similar lines to your own? Maybe you inspired me with the way you think, and a little of your thinking style is rubbing off on me? š
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
āOh, dear, Iām now talking to a Buddhistic/Stoical, ghost limerentā¦. š¦ā
āIs it such a disappointment to encounter someone whose mind runs along similar lines to your own? Maybe you inspired me with the way you think, and a little of your thinking style is rubbing off on me? ā
I think you know well that we ESL speakers may āhumorā quite insufficiently or over-drily than native speakers, since we could not judge subtle differences of phrases or sentences that change meanings or tones, as their patterns changes or synonymous words take place.
Personally, growing with a strong āallergyā to Flattery, I, strive to praise others truthfully but indirectly, going round and round about it, so as not to be thought tacky, cheesy, artlessā¦ I appreciate and marvel at sincere, substantial complements, but their direct application tend to make me blush or uneasy, due to their closeness to flattery.
The inspiration is mutualā¦. Itās an excitement to wrestle with a matching hand in mind and spirit, which could bring one (whatās a word for someone who primarily lives in head?? Knucklehead? ) sleepless nightsā¦
Nisor says
Sammy, Snow, hi
I enjoyed very much the back and forth between you two on the subject of Karma and a Curse.
It brings to light that all religions or schools of thought are aiming for the same outcome/goal, that is : how to best explain and equip, and prepare individuals to cope with the adversities of life.
They all recognize thereās two sides to lifeās journey on this earth. Happiness and unhappiness, and all together the emotions in betweenā¦ These ups and downs of life we cannot foresee at times, or most of the time for us to avoid itā¦ but somehow you deal with it with the tools you have learned or are equipped with. But no one is ever prepared for limerence rollercoaster , š¢ at least, the first one. I wasnāt! any teachings I have had had no bearing on my executive brain! The judeo-Christian teachings have helped me a lot after the first wave of limerence, and in many, many others occasions in my life, which kept me from giving up to the tribulations or afflictions encountered.
Each one of us is seeking tools on how to best handle limerence once it āpossesses ā you. But when one is in the middle of it, no tool is effective at all. One has to let it take its course with time, and make it āoneās companionā until it decides to leave on its own time. .. oh dear, be gone fast, I want my freedom!
Best wishes to you both, and thanks Sammy for coming to my rescue on this issue, you portrayed so amazingly, and Snow for explaining it so well. Iām for ever grateful to the great teachers of LwL. I hope I get a good grade! Thanks for the laughs š also.
Snowphoenix says
Nisor,
Youāre are more than welcome! You are now a half Buddhist. Taking different trains, we all head for one destination ā personal fulfillment that would in return contribute to our community and fellow travelers.
How is your lower back? Did you try physical therapy as I suggested in another post to you? Iām doing one now, because I hurt some muscles or tendon during a workout back in summer.
PT is great, like a personalized Pilate. Itās slow and help strengthen muscles that will always grow regardless age.
Hugs!
Nisor says
Snow, do you have the magic crystal bowl in front of you? What a coincidence, youāre asking me in regard of my lower back pain, I was about to mention in the aforementioned post, but didnāt. In fact, today itās hurting like a bastard! I do some exercises the orthopedist gave me to do home. And a heating pad I placed on it for fifteen minutes, it alleviates it quite a bit. Itās because I fell down and broke a disc about five years ago. He said it will never be the same again as I would be leaning towards one side, since one side of the disc is shorterā¦ whatever that means. Iāll learn to live with that pain also. It goes away with two pills of analgesics. My SO is really a help when Iām in need. May he have long life!
Thanks for asking. I hope yours gets better and better with time. We humans are a mess, but we keep on going. What else can we doā¦
Strength and hugs .
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
āI think some parts of the Old Testament, particularly the so-called āwisdom literatureā of the Bible, does have Buddhist themes running throughoutā¦ā Eastern religious thought fed into Judaism and through Judaism fed into Christianity.ā
Have you thought of becoming a scholar in Religious Studies (or perhaps youāre already one?), like my LO? I never passed page 10 in the Old Testament after 4 times of an attempt, in both languages; š Iām a savage to the bone ā thatās why there is this mystical rapport between me and dogs, horses/zebras, babies, toddlersā¦.
āOh my gosh. Iām gonna sound like a fangirl, but I love Dimash! ā
It just dawned to me this morning that my Conscious gave you a face, somewhat like Dimash (at least hair style), is because he is the best āAndrogynousā singers! (Thus the word in my dream) Iāve heard a lot of famous opera singers, but only Dimashās voice (still a bit thin/narrow to me) could piece into my soul ā like being seized away to another realm. His āAve Mariaā has best captured the worst sufferings Iāve experienced in my lifeā¦ No words of any kind is able to express them!
āI love Dimashās stage wardrobe too ā all those amazing outfits! ā
His stage wardrobe is what I call āthe creative and inspirational beautyā, totally my cup of teaā¦.
āAspies are āborn Buddhistsā apparently because they arenāt really motivated by materialism, donāt get caught up in drama in the same way neurotypicals do, and tend to have this strange aura of emotional detachment about them.(Doesnāt mean theyāre not deeply loving people ā a lot of their emotion remains hidden).ā
Then the first two parts are a great luck to Aspies, compared to the mainstream folks. Does the third part make Aspies to have some or great difficulties to make and sustain friendships and romantic relationships, as some Aspies experts describe?
āTo Christians, Aspies may appear movingly Christlike. Aspies often prioritise morals over everything else i.e. living by oneās own moral code and not wavering from it. ā
Sounds like Aspies could be good Stoics? Are they tend to be very stubborn/fixed, not easily shift/transit from one mental/emotional state to another? And a cause of OCD? My OCD (caused by cptsd) is terrible, whether Iām in limerence or notā¦
āLimerence is an altered state. Sometimes the pain felt in limerence is so strong and pervasive and intrusive that the pain really prevents enjoyment of anything. ā
I strongly suspect that the degree of limerence pains is much stronger in Aspies than other neurotypicals, itās said that neuro-wiring in Aspies are different, underdeveloped during their childhood thus some other parts of the brain overdeveloped, making them much higher in functioning in memories, math, but not language or social skills. Your language and social skills in this forum seem to contradict those āAspies expertsāā findings, they puzzle and dazzle my mindā¦. š§
āPleasure has left the building. One is being bombarded by constant ālowsā. The limerent literally feels like they are going out of their mind. Canāt eat. Canāt sleep. Canāt relax. āSick with loveā like the Shulamite (bride-to-be) in āSong of Solomonā ā operative word being āsickā. ā
I experienced ācanāt eat, canāt sleep, and canāt relaxā in every LE I was in (sometimes outside of LE as well), Yet, not only that I did not mind it (NEVER felt like I was going out of my mind, my ability to compartmentalize is strong); but I thought itās adventurous, exciting, and exhilarating BECAUSE my realistic life prior to glimmer at a LO terribly sucked ā mostly felt ignored, depressed, lonely, etc! So limerence was like a shinny white knight, suddenly dropped in my life and swept my mind and spirit off to a ālovingā roller-coaster ride. I was so afraid of losing it even it was only one-way street! I thought others who seemed not to have experienced LEās intensity like mine were unlucky!
āThe limerent canāt think of anything else other than LO, or desired relationship with LO. In really extreme cases, where thereās not even any bond with LO to salvage,ā
That was your case, as well as my latest one ā the only LE that has not have any solid or tangible bond, and itās not totally over yetā¦. LO still flashes in and out of my mind more than half of the time (I see him twice a week), but LO/LE do not cause much rippling sensations in my mind (except his recent misfortune) ā whatās there to dwell on with our superficial interactions and NC in scrabbling? I can focus on other areas in my life, such as teaching, concentrated rambling here, mediation, piano practicesā¦ My mind only loses its control to the Unconscious during my night dreams or naps (just saw his tears and tearing twice in the afternoonās nap, itās unbearably sad! ā never seen in realityā¦ )
āIād say itās desirable for limerents to move out of the altered state so they can regain their bearings.ā
Do I sound okay in my bearings? I really think Iām out of the altered state of limerence, but at its end, do you agree?
āOne can certainly appreciate the joy and sadness that limerence gives, but a lot of this joy and sadness is enjoyed retrospectively i.e. after the storm has passed through.ā
I have to agree with you here. During the storm, limerents sometimes are too anxious to even enjoy āhighsā of limerence, unless they expect little to begin with, such as in my case in its early stage ā a PA, or EA, was out of question; I only needed a surrogate father.
āWhen one is in the middle of brutal mood swings, it isnāt so easy to be philosophical about the equal value joy and sorrow bring to life. Although one may feel intensely alive, one simultaneously feels that one is mad and alone and flailing. I.e. one has lost contact with the mothership. ā
I donāt think weād ever again to feel āmad and alone and flailingā with ābrutal mood swingsā, after we have learned so much about limerence. Our newly acquired limerenceās lens, clear awareness, and vigilance would assist us to logically speculate, philosophize, and feel ups and downs in our new connections, be they friendships or romantic relationships.
Snowpheonix says
In the Woods of Language, She Collects Beautiful Sticks
Valzhyna Mort
like a snail with a shell of sticks
ā she loads them on her back ā
Like a camel with a hump of sticks
ā on her back, on her back ā
Like a horse with a knight of sticks and a stick for a sword
Where is she taking this load of sticks?
ā on her hump, on her hump ā
She has no house, where is she taking the house she doesnāt have?
ā in the fire she is taking it in the fire ā
In the fire she is making a poem entirely out of sticks on fire and it goes like this
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
************
āI wrote this poem when I couldnāt write a different poem, and this inability to write made me feel homeless in language and in poetry. So, āIn the Woods of Language, She Collects Beautiful Sticksā is a bit of homemaking.ā
āValzhyna Mort
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
An error in my previous post: āMy Unconscious gave you a face,ā (Not āConsciousā)
Do you see how the Unconscious in my dreams/naps beat the conscious, logical mind? I guess IT would never allow me to rest on āSchadenfreudeā without profound sadnessā¦.
The reality is cruel and sad, at least for a whileā¦. A potential blessing in disguise in a long run? Who could foretell?
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“… only Dimashās voice (still a bit thin/narrow to me) could piece into my soul …”
When Dimash’s voice sounds too thin, I think that means he’s using his falsetto. And you’re right – his falsetto range isn’t as rich and embodied as other parts of his voice. Still very pretty, though… š
“Does the third part make Aspies to have some or great difficulties to make and sustain friendships and romantic relationships, as some Aspies experts describe?”
Oh, Aspies are wonderful friends. And Aspies are also terrible friends. And Aspies are terrible friends for the exact same reason Aspies are wonderful friends… š
One of the biggest “flaws” Aspies have is they’re “equally nice to everyone” and can’t see anything wrong with being “equally nice to everyone”. People looking for a “best friend” might be offended that the Aspie treats their regular friends and classmates the same way they treat best friend.
I wouldn’t want to be a neurotypical woman who falls in love with an Aspie man. What this woman will see is a really handsome man with intense eyes who charms the socks off of her with thirty seconds of conversation. Then he’ll go off and charm the socks off every other human who crosses his path, genuinely forgetting the first woman even exists.
The Aspie isn’t being malicious or disrespectful. The Aspie is just being his irresistibly charming self. (People who are self-contained are always very charming). The neurotypical woman might feel she can never get her Aspie man to focus on just her. She’s in love and he’s not in love. She’s planning the wedding and he’s fascinated by some shiny blue pebbles he’s just found in the local creek. Outcome: Aspie men often trigger limerence in neurotypical women.
“I strongly suspect that the degree of limerence pains is much stronger in Aspies than … neurotypicals …”
I completely agree with you regarding limerent pains – stronger in Aspies. But I feel all difficulties arise from difficulties in processing emotions. Dr. L’s posts have been wonderful explaining my emotions to me. So maybe Aspies just need a few INFJ pals blessed with both empathy and writerly inclinations? I find I understand things better if they are explained to me in writing, and by a good writer. š
“Your language and social skills in this forum seem to contradict those āAspies expertsāā findings, they puzzle and dazzle my mindā¦. š§”
I guess “language” is my area of special interest!! š
If I seem to have good social skills to you, Snow, that’s simply because you ask all the right questions and provide an appealing audience. Aspies can be a bit lazy, a bit complacent. We can be absolutely sparkling when we feel like it, but we usually need to be cajoled into sparkling. Or cunningly flattered into sparkling.
I think, Snow, you provide the right amount of prodding and pushing to get me to sparkle. I don’t feel out of my comfort zone answering your questions. However, I do need a really good reason to perform at my highest cognitive levels. I need someone to draw me out. It’s like I can’t go out on the stage and sing unless I have a duet partner.
“Do I sound okay in my bearings? I really think Iām out of the altered state of limerence, but at its end, do you agree?”
Only you can answer that, Snow. Are you still in pain? Do you still feel anxious? Do you still feel as if you’re caught up in an addictive cycle, and want to do crazy things like chase butterflies through fields of golden daisies? Do colours still seem oddly bright to you? š
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
Thank you for telling me more about Aspies from an insightful perspective. I think everyone would love to have a Jesuslike, loyal, non-judgmental, unbiased Aspie friend! However many would be unable to get emotionally close to him or her in a way they wish and desire, which is very frustrating to neurotypical men or women.
If having your knowledge earlier, I might have avoided divorcing my xSO, who self-claimed as an Aspie afterwards. He could not enjoy classical literature at all and other subjects in liberal arts, and I, an ESL speaker, had to draft/edit his job-search cover and thank-you lettersā¦ Heās was quite kind and attentive to me (and others), but insufficient in many ways that I did not understand back then, particularly with my undiagnozed cptsd. Our divorce broke down him for a while, which has kept this residual guilt inside meā¦.
āWe can be absolutely sparkling when we feel like it, but we usually need to be cajoled into sparkling. Or cunningly flattered into sparkling.ā
šIāll keep this in mind, since my knucklehead needs to be knocked spinning with puzzling life issues or eccentric concepts or to be distracted from forever lurking depression or limerence pains.
āI think, Snow, you provide the right amount of prodding and pushing to get me to sparkle. I donāt feel out of my comfort zone answering your questions. ā
Iāve never grown up from a childās Why, Why, and Why, like my granny. So itās a bit easier to āseduceā me out of bittersweet limerence āaddictionā. With a terrible OCD, my mind could be hooked onto any areas easily, as long as theyāre something Iām highly interested, as long as theyāre human mind, emotions, and spirit involvedā¦
DrL: Please keep vigilance on possible AI introding LwL (one landed in my email system and told me so. She looked intelligent, though). Iād feel mortified to chat with an AI.
āHowever, I do need a really good reason to perform at my highest cognitive levels. I need someone to draw me out. Itās like I canāt go out on the stage and sing unless I have a duet partner.ā
I will fail here. Behind a mask of a dilettante bookworm, I am still that love-starved, dreamy, self-spoiled single child who desired her fatherās exclusive loving attention. Like an orphan monkey, she might eagerly attach herself to any mammal, who appears able to provide such attention.
āAre you still in pain? Do you still feel anxious? Do you still feel as if youāre caught up in an addictive cycle, and want to do crazy things like chase butterflies through fields of golden daisies? Do colours still seem oddly bright to you?ā
I see the door firmly closing
without any windows in slight
I see the coffin in waiting
to be lowered to a rightful grave
perhaps after a funeral of some kind
in the given, definitive day?
Under the misty, gray sky
all butterflies hide in hibernating cocoons.
there is no feasible, fluffy soil
for a limerence burial
Do I carry the cremation like a cross
in the addictive LwL?
1/26/24
Snowpheonix says
The Closing Door ā
I see the door firmly closing
without any windows in slight
I see the coffin in waiting
to be lowered to a rightful slot
perhaps after a silent funeral
in the given, definitive day?
Under the misty, gray sky
butterflies all hide in frozen cocoons.
there is no feasible, fluffy soil
for a limerence burial
Do I carry the cremation like a cross
stumbling in the addictive LwL?
1/26/24
Iām actually feeling giddy after my āmadwomanās screamingā ā the power of scrabbling!
https://livingwithlimerence.com/winter-coffeehouse/#comment-51474
Snowpheonix says
The Closing Door ā
I see the door firmly closing
with no open window in slight
I see the coffin in waiting
to be lowered to a rightful slot
perhaps after a silent funeral
in the given, definitive hour?
Under the misty, gray sky
butterflies hide in frozen cocoons.
there is no feasible, fluffy soil
for a limerence burial
Do I carry the cremation like a cross
rambling in the addictive LwL?
1/26/24
Snowpheonix says
The Closing Door ā
I see the door firmly closing
with no open window in slight
I see the coffin in waiting
to be lowered to a rightful slot
perhaps after a silent funeral
in the given, definitive hour?
Under the misty, gray sky
butterflies hide in frozen cocoons.
there is little feasible, fluffy soil
for a limerence burial
Do I carry the cremation like a cross
rambling in the virtual LwL?
1/27/24
Snowpheonix says
Dr L and All,
I apologize for misusing the word āaddictiveā in my previous post. I meant to say that I feel like āaddictedā to coming here, or it is āaddictiveā to come hereā¦
After looking up the word just now, I realized that the way I used the word makes LwL sounding like a ādrugā, which is clearly wrong, considering how it has been helping me and many of us here ease our limerence painsā¦
Please forgive an ESL speakerās grammatical error here.
Snowpheonix says
Be aware who in your head before falling in sleep, they have a large chance to end up in our dreams.
After writing the above apology note, I fell in sleep this early Dawn. Then DrL appeared ā
DrL looked somewhat like that Japanese scientist, Dr. Kawashima. There was a short narrative in the dream, and DrL suggested, to me and a couple of others (unclear who) standing at a foot of a wide outdoor cement stairs in a college campus, to do something with our LOs ā seducing them in some specific ways??. I remembered one sentence he said upon waking up, but forget now ā āWhy donāt you goā¦.?ā
I was very surprised, because what he suggested was opposite to what he usually advises here in LwL ā go NC/LC with LO. I remember my sensation of being a bit āshockedā in the dream.
This dream ended here. (I had another one in the same sleep)
Yvon says
Thank you for your good advice. This is a tough season but I am glad for the rose colored glasses to be off, even if it has been brutal. I have taken a leave of absence from our shared professional community for health reasons, and I am going to no contact to best of my ability and have deactivated my social media and have blocked him as a contact (for now at least), as I heal and move past this trauma. It so funny how to see patterns from limerence over the years and to pin point the sources of trauma from the past and how they trigger and translate to today, but I am grateful to be able on the side of knowledge, even if itās painful, the truth shall set you free!
Nisor says
Yes Yvon, knowing the triggers that set limerence in motion helps you avoid future LEs. Indeed, the truth shall make you free, even if it hurst, makes you heal faster. I see youāre taking the right steps to NC right away. We cannot fool ourselves of the facts that stare at us right on our faces. Acceptance is a good word to rememberā¦ with Godās help youāll come out of this travail victorious. You are not alone. Stay in touch.
May the wisdom and peace of God dwell in your mind and heart. Blessings šŖš½šŖš½šŖš½šŖš½
Snowpheonix says
The poem just turned up in my email this morning, what a coincident!
****
Loveās Growth
John Donne
I scarce believe my love to be so pure
As I had thought it was,
Because it doth endure
Vicissitude, and season, as the grasse;
Methinks I lied all winter, when I swore,
My love was infinite, if spring makeāit more.
But if this medicine, love, which cures all sorrow
With more, not onely bee no quintessence,
But mixt of all stuffes, paining soule, or sense,
And of the Sunne his working vigour borrow,
Loveās not so pure, and abstract, as they use
To say, which have no Mistresse but their Muse,
But as all else, being elemented too,
Love sometimes would contemplate, sometimes do
And yet no greater, but more eminent,
Love by the spring is grown;
As, in the firmament,
Starres by the Sunne are not inlargād, but showne,
Gentle love deeds, as blossomes on a bough,
From loveās awakened root do bud out now.
If, as in water stirād more circles bee
Producād by one, love such additions take,
Those like so many spheares, but one heaven make,
For, they are all concentrique unto thee,
And though each spring doe adde to love new heate,
As princes do in times of action get
New taxes, and remit them not in peace,
No winter shall abate the springās encrease.
******
About this poem:
āLoveās Growthā was originally published in Poems (John Marriott, 1633), the first comprehensive publication of John Donneās poetry. In āThe Muse in Donne and Jonson: A Post-Lacanian Study,ā published in Modern Language Studies, vol. 21, no. 4 (Fall 1991), Mark Fortier, a professor in the School of English and Theatre Studies at the University of Guelph, Canada, writes (commenting on the last four lines of the second stanza), āThe relation of poet and Muse is contrasted, derisively, to the relation between real lovers, which is Donneās true subject. Where real love is complex and organic, love of the Muse is unreal, devoid of complexity, devoid of life. Love of the Muse is inactive: those who love, do; those who canāt, call on the Muse. Paradoxically the poetic ego identifies itself, at least here, with those who can. There is an estrangement from the Muse, an inability to sympathize with those who value her. To a large extent this will be the primary relationship between the poet and the Muse throughout Donneās work: the poet never feels close to, never values his own Muse, although sometimes he can respect the Muse of others.ā
*****
Sammy,
Do you think the relationship between a poet and his/her muse parallels with that of a limerent and his/her LO?
If true that ālove of the Muse is unreal, devoid of complexity, devoid of life. Love of the Muse is inactive: those who love, do; those who canāt, call on the Muse.ā then Limerent canāt truly or organically love, but only in limerence with his/her LO and possibly create marvelous works?
In another word, if oneās love is fulfilled in reality, would there be less of those great love epics, arts, poetry, sculptures, etc. throughout the history?
More personally, would you be able to finish your epic poem if your limerence was reciprocated and fulfilled?
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
How do you feel and what have got from your own creative process of an epic poem?
Now in hindsight, would you choose to turn off your limerence in the past and in the future, if you have a choice?
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
“Now in hindsight, would you choose to turn off your limerence in the past and in the future, if you have a choice?”
I wouldn’t have chosen to turn off my limerence in the past because I had to finish my poem, darn it! (It would be terrible to run out of inspiration before crossing the finishing line).
I’m a perfectionist. I like to finish what I start. Also, in limerence, I think there’s this odd compulsion: “I have to see this thing through to the end. If it ends in tears, great, I have to get to the tears. It’s not over ’til the tears start flowing.”
I kind of feel like I’m in a nice spot now, out of limerence. Limerence forced me to grow a lot as a person. Limerence showed me many “shiny” sides of myself that I didn’t know I had. So limerence is pretty cool from the perspective of self-exploration. (I think limerence is self-love more than it is other-directed love, and in that sense the Fortier quote is right). š
Would I turn off limerence in future, if I had a choice? I dunno. Depends on a lot of factors. I’d need a new LO, of course, to re-enter the altered state. And this new LO would raise all sorts of questions e.g. would the new LO be a different type of LO from the type of previous LO/s?
If one’s exited an LE because they’ve worked through most of their issues regarding a particular LO, then it seems to me unlikely one would fall for the same archetype twice. That would be like passing the same exam twice i.e. redundant.
The completion of my poem and the end of my LE for high school LO/s seemed to coincide for me. So it’s kind of nice to have everything wrapped up so neatly. Not everyone is so lucky. Closure is (apparently) the gift we give ourselves. We we’re ready emotionally to close the door on something, we just naturally and instinctively close the door. š¤
Sammy says
@Snowphoenix.
Some very interesting questions…
“Do you think the relationship between a poet and his/her muse parallels with that of a limerent and his/her LO?”
I think it depends a lot on the individual limerent. For many limerents, limerence does seem grounded in a desire to leave one’s current partner and have a real relationship with LO. In such cases, the limerence doesn’t parallel an artist-muse relationship to my way of thinking, though the intense feelings may be the same.
I think good artists maintain “aesthetic distance” from their subject. (If one knows one’s muse too well, what is there to invent?) If one is content with fantasies mostly, then the limerent-LO relationship resembles the artist-muse relationship much more closely I think because the right level of aesthetic distance is being maintained. š
“In another word, if oneās love is fulfilled in reality, would there be less of those great love epics, arts, poetry, sculptures, etc. throughout the history?”
Short answer: yes, less artistic creation. Or the same level of artistic creation, but maybe less creation of really outstanding quality? I think we’d see a lot more mediocrity in the Arts. Artists wouldn’t put their heart and soul into their work. Artists would just do the bare minimum they have to do to collect a paycheck.
Camille Paglia thinks Oscar Wilde’s big mistake was that he had a relationship with his muse, thereby throwing his life into disarray and sucking much of the power and haunting beauty out of his artistic creation. As poor old Oscar himself admitted, he put his genius into his life and not his work. “The Picture of Dorian Grey”, Wilde’s only novel, was written BEFORE Oscar fell for Bosie (Lord Alfred Douglas). The novel also seems eerily to foretell Oscar’s fall from public favour.
“More personally, would you be able to finish your epic poem if your limerence was reciprocated and fulfilled?”
I believe no, not really. (1) I wouldn’t have the desire to write in order to impress LO potentially. (2) I wouldn’t need to write to figure out my real emotions toward LO. (3) I wouldn’t need to write to categorise my love interests e.g. who’s a friend? who’s a crush? who’s an LO? Am I getting some of these categories mixed up?
“How do you feel and what have got from your own creative process of an epic poem?”
With limerence coming to an end, I feel much better. Maybe that’s how one knows one’s coming out of an limerent episode? One simply feels “much better”.
What did I get from my own creative process? Sounds a big pretentious, but … freedom from inner demons I perhaps didn’t even know I had? š¤
Snowpheonix says
Sammy,
āFor many limerents, limerence does seem grounded in a desire to leave oneās current partner and have a real relationship with LO. In such cases, the limerence doesnāt parallel an artist-muse relationship to my way of thinking, though the intense feelings may be the same.ā
Agree. When posing the question, I was only thinking those unrequited limerents who could not be āpairedā with LO, forgetting some actually have left their SO, or have had private PA on the sideline.
āI think good artists maintain āaesthetic distanceā from their subject. (If one knows oneās muse too well, what is there to invent?) If one is content with fantasies mostly, then the limerent-LO relationship resembles the artist-muse relationship much more closely I think because the right level of aesthetic distance is being maintained. ā
Thatās my case, without me knowing why or analyzing the nature of fantasies. As I answered LOās question in person about my insufficient knowledge of him yet the āmysteriousā monologues pouring into his silent WhatsApp, for a self-invented ātherapyā between a child and surrogate parent, I said, ādonāt you see that because I donāt know enough, I could imagine anyway I want (about the Phantom, to whom I was really confessing to, not the realistic LO)ā¦. ?!ā
The Phantom was with LO initially, but the situation gradually, inevitably cut the tie ā I realized that the idealized Phantom was created (or had already existed faceless ā Nisor suggested ) in myself carrying LOās facial feature (or projected onto LO).
Iām not sure whether LO has ever understood what I tried to explain when I was severing the last 1% of tie in person in last April. I was not aware of any āaesthetic distanceā that I was unconsciously keeping between LO and me for over 6 years. I was quite content with the idealized Phantom ādialoguingā with me (I automatically āassignedā all the possible responsive lines to Phantom). The contentment of this āhealing playā fantasy lasted 4 years (LOās SO was never in my mind, and his personal reality largely remained uninteresting to me)) until I was struck by the unwanted jealousyā¦.
Well, youāre carrying Dimashā facial lines, DrL Kawashimaā¦. See the power of the Unconscious!
āIn another word, if oneās love is fulfilled in reality, would there be less of those great love epics, arts, poetry, sculptures, etc. throughout the history?ā
Short answer: yes, less artistic creation. ā
I argued with my therapist that only psychological pains instigate and urge great arts, and many artists have lost their creative ability after treated or ācuredā by psychotherapy. Their mind becomes complacentā¦ I worried about that therapy processes would kill my colorful emotions, although I could not necessarily create anything artistic or āusefulā. Somehow I ācherishedā the range and intensity of my emotions without knowing why.
āCamille Paglia thinks Oscar Wildeās big mistake was that he had a relationship with his muse, thereby throwing his life into disarray and sucking much of the power and haunting beauty out of his artistic creation.ā
I have to read more of your Camille Paglia. I did not make a connection like this.
āMore personally, would you be able to finish your epic poem if your limerence was reciprocated and fulfilled?ā
āI believe no, not really.ā
I already knew the answer, just wanted to confirm.
āWith limerence coming to an end, I feel much better. Maybe thatās how one knows oneās coming out of an limerent episode? One simply feels āmuch betterā.ā
Physically and psychologically, Iāve been feeling a lot better with manageable disturbance, but the sadness for an ending remains ā I have hated any kind of involuntary ending or departure from anyone (even my favorite studentsā graduation) all my life (triggering cptsd abandonment melange), it brings me endless sighs and subtle heartache particularly at the first moment of waking upā¦.
āWhat did I get from my own creative process? Sounds a big pretentious, but ā¦ freedom from inner demons I perhaps didnāt even know I had? ā
Every single human being has their own inner demons, despite a lot denies it, me included in the past. Recognizing them is for me already a huge achievement. Iām not sure I can or I want to slain all of them, but tame them like keeping a majestic Tiger as a pet ā DrLās metaphor. Itās Buddhistic compassion.
Snowpheonix says
My Back Pages
WRITTEN BY: BOB DYLAN
Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollinā high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
āWeāll meet on edges, soon,ā said I
Proud āneath heated brow
Ah, but I was so much older then
Iām younger than that now
Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
āRip down all hate,ā I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
Iām younger than that now
Girlsā faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, though, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
Iām younger than that now
A self-ordained professorās tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
āEquality,ā I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow
Ah, but I was so much older then
Iām younger than that now
In a soldierās stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that Iād become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow
Ah, but I was so much older then
Iām younger than that now
Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
Iām younger than that now
Yvon says
Hello Again,
I just wanted to share this TED Talk by Holli Kenley. Her work in betrayal has resonated a lot to me. Maybe this would be helpful to you all.
https://youtu.be/ZEiSdZGInm8?si=urvMWKIi7MnKKgjc
https://youtu.be/_bnZhhHGe4k?feature=shared
Yvon says
Ah also wanted to share this dance about addictionā¦which limerence can very much be like. Itās funny the night before I found out the truth of my LOās deceit, I had a dream about him but it wasnāt him, it was like an insidious character with disproportionate arms and he wanted me to just hold him and care for him, which is the heartās desire in limerence, but it didnāt feel right. Now I know that my love and friendship was not based on something real and I will keep this in mind next time I feel tempted to fall to limerenceās siren song again. I never want to feel like this again.
https://youtu.be/1D_PUdnkSTE?si=9iL9QKP09Dd2Nd1B