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Living with Limerence

Life, love, and limerence

Case study: why is limerence so painful?

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Prolonged limerence is painful.

Today’s case study is from Lara, who is well versed with the principles of recovery we espouse here at LwL, but is nonetheless struggling with this part of the process.

…in any of your blogs do you cover the sheer pain of limerence, which I seem to experience physically and mentally, as if a wound has been opened and not healed? What is the neuroscience behind the pain?

It’s a good question, and the answer is no. I haven’t really covered this before, and it is a significant oversight.

Time to put that right!

What is pain?

This might seem like an silly question to start with, but actually, from a neuroscience perspective, the answer is not as obvious as it first appears.

Pain has both physical and psychological components. Normally, when we think about pain we assume some sort of injury or disease has damaged the body, which triggers a reflex “ouch” response – say touching a hot stove (to give the rather old fashioned example that all the textbooks seem to use).

Mind out, Victorian urchin!

That sensory process is described as “nociception”, and covers the neural circuits that connect the neurons in the skin to the spinal cord and brain centres that detect the stimulus and trigger a motor response (contracting the muscles in your arm to snatch your hand away from the hot stove).

Pain, though, is a broader phenomenon, and encompasses not just nociception, but also the emotional distress and subjective psychological impact that follows. These aspects of pain are inter-related, of course – pain thresholds vary with mood, and chronic pain is a leading cause of depression – but it is reasonable to separate the basic wiring that relays the sensory input from the brain centres that process and interpret the pain.

The neuroscience of psychological pain

If you scan the brains of people experiencing physical pain or emotional pain, many of the same regions light up. We can list them – anterior cingulate cortex, anterior insula, periaqueductal grey, amygdala – which is nice and all, but just reveals a common feature of neuroscience: the same circuits are exploited for fundamental drives regardless of the ultimate cause. These brain regions drive aversive reactions that allow us to learn what to avoid. They make you feel bad. But, it’s the executive centres in the cortex that make sense of the pain.

When it comes to limerence, there is no direct injury. Emotional pain is generated from thoughts, not nails or hot stoves or arthritic joints. The subjective experience of emotional pain arises when peace of mind is destroyed by a sudden reversal in fortune or unexpected disaster. When hopes are dashed.

A neuroscientist might describe psychological pain as an aversive emotional reaction to a reward extinction event. A normal human might describe it as the agony of loss – which is the main point. Loss is painful, always, and the magnitude of the pain is proportional to the importance of what has been lost.

The pain of limerence

When it comes to limerence the sense of loss is proportional to the scale of the hopes – that is, it’s wildly disproportionate.

I’ve just lost heaven

There are few rewards in life more powerful than romantic consummation. Pair-bonding is such a fundamental drive, the evolutionary pressure to secure it so powerful, that it is about as highly anticipated as a reward gets. The euphoria of limerence comes from the promise of blissful union.

Even worse, in many cases limerence is heightened by the presence of barriers or uncertainty – meaning the reward is not eliminated entirely, it is just inaccessible.

This is a perfect storm for emotional pain. It’s entirely psychological in origin, and the executive brain can’t contextualise the loss away. It’s reinforcing, as every positive memory of LO causes a spike of hope, followed by renewed loss. It’s uncertain, so you can’t be sure all hope is truly lost, but it does feel like it’s slipping away – which provokes a panicked attempt to recover it.

Trapped in this mental loop, the body transitions into a state of constant stress. Pain activates what’s known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, where hormone release from the pituitary causes the adrenal glands to release cortisol, the stress hormone. This is what leads to many of the physical symptoms of heartache.

And that leads to another bitter irony…

Withdrawal pain

It’s not just hope that is lost when limerence overstays its welcome. When limerence becomes a source of anxiety rather than euphoria, you start to miss the highs. Like any other addiction, once you become habituated to the thrill of limerent excitement, you lose a source of joy.

The brain and body respond to this slump by… seeking reward. When things were good, limerent daydreaming was a brilliant device for mood repair, but now it gives fleeting relief at best. With ever-diminishing returns, the motivational circuits push you to try even harder to secure relief, but in trying to stave off the pain you end up following behavioural patterns that make it worse.

Stewing in circular thoughts and stress hormones, you still feel the agony of loss, but limerent reverie only reinforces it. Your old avenue of escape has closed off. Which becomes another painful loss.

Coping with emotional pain

Limerent pain feels inescapable, because you end up trapped in mental cycles that entrench it. However, that realisation is helpful for making sense of the problem, because it also presents an obvious solution: break the cycle.

You’ll never take me for a ride again, Limerence!

What’s needed is a shift in mindset to reframe loss as life experience, pain as transformation, and reward as freedom from limerence.

Here are a few strategies that can help:

  1. Accept pain as a normal part of life
    If you are living a full life, in an open, loving and exploratory way, you will not be able to escape emotional pain. It is simply the cost of being alive and bonding with other people. Accept that suffering is a companion that you will sometimes have to accommodate, and try to bear it stoically.
  2. Try to identify the root of the pain
    I’ve talked in quite general terms here, but the specific details of everyone’s pain will be personal. Loss will be a component, but is it the loss of a fantasy relationship, the pain of rejection, the regret or guilt for jeopardising an existing relationship, memories of humiliation, anger at mistreatment, frustration at feeling trapped? If you can identify what your personal sore spot is, you’ll know what to work on most diligently.
  3. Forgive yourself mistakes
    You may regret bonding to LO, you may regret your choices, you may think that your disenfranchised grief is not justified. That’s fine. Even if your pain isn’t “valid” it will still hurt. Good people make mistakes, and the only route to forgiveness is to accept that you cannot alter the past but can do better in the future. Care for yourself, even if you don’t feel you deserve it.
  4. Stop using memories for mood regulation
    When you feel pain, and intrusive thoughts of happier times with LO invade, do what you can to cut the memory short. Remind yourself that this pattern of behaviour is prolonging your pain. In general, rumination about LO, the unfairness of the situation – the past, generally, in fact – have limited utility once you have realised that you want to be free of limerence. When you have reached that point, you need to work on believing that the future can be better.
  5. Take pride in victories
    One source of encouragement is that coming to the realisation that it’s time to take action and escape is a massive first step. A decisive first step. Take pride in it. Take pride in every day when you focus on something other than LO and limerence and make forward progress. Mark those victories, and allow yourself to believe that they will come more often in the future.
  6. Use purpose as a hook for optimism
    You knew it was coming! The ultimate solution to the pain of limerence is better, healthier sources of reward that can help you improve your life. Finding a purposeful pursuit has multiple benefits. It’s fulfilling, it’s constructive, and it gives you something to immerse yourself into that is a worthwhile distraction from rumination. Best of all, making life more purposeful is the best route to lasting happiness, which makes the disruptive thrills of limerence less alluring.

Limerence hurts, because life hurts. It’s just an especially powerful kind of hurt, just as limerence is an especially powerful kind of reward.

But there are ways through it.

Reader Interactions

Comments

      • Adam, did you paint your wife’s nails? Was it fun? Did she love it? What color? Tell me, tell me, tell me. I want to hear about it.

      • Adam,

        It’s a great song but not one that I can relate to. My twice-divorced father trained me to be ruthlessly self-reliant. He told me that there was nobody that I couldn’t live without. Nobody. He said that there might be people you’d miss terribly if they were no longer part of your life but you’d live without them.

        He told me that if a woman takes off on you, or threatens to, you:

        1. You show her the door.

        2. You don’t ask her to stay.

        3. You don’t tell her she can come back.

        4. If she comes back, there’s nothing that says that you have to take her back.

        5. If she had a key, you change the locks.

        With LO #2, I was great on the first three but failed #4. #5 was NA.

        He never said that it wouldn’t hurt.

        Clip of the Day: “The Hobbit: The Battle of The Five Armies”

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bK_IKBeRo

        • That’s quite the opposite of what I get told. I get told I give too easily, fall too fast and ask too little.

          And of all things in life I’ve met this one is more than I am. I don’t know if I can do this L.E.

  2. I have found that dealing with my LE has been an extensive exercise in pain management. And it has really been quite a trial and error process. I cannot go full NC with my LO so I had to learn how to manage coexisting with her in an office environment and how to best deal with the emotional turmoil of it all. Over the last 11 months here is what I have found…

    Stable but slightly down emotions are better than the euphoric highs and depressive lows. I am able to function better in a more stable state even if I feel pretty blah most of the time.

    Stable routine and predictable interactions with LO keeps my emotions in check. I know what to expect each day.

    Each day I can sort of determine when my low points are going to hit. They tend to be under the same circumstances. I can be more prepared for them.

    For me, the act of texting with LO was torture on my emotions. It’s too unpredictable for me. I stay away from it now.

    I have let myself cry when I needed to. Always feel better after.

    If I feel a deep need for connection with LO I allow myself light interaction with her. That usually helps regulate my mood. Trying to be cold shoulder with her never works for me.

    These are just some of the things I have found that work for me and I function fairly well most of the time. I have not had a breakdown in a while now. I am still focused on purposeful living and my SO but I need to also acknowledge that the pain is real and keep managing it.

    • What a great idea, Speedwagon. Maybe we should all add what works for us.

      1. Never disclose attraction when you or the other person is in a committed relationship. (Ironically, Speedy and I respectfully disagree on this one.)

      2. Do the right thing no matter how you feel. If it’s time to take your dog for a walk, but you feel stuck in rumination, take your dog for a walk anyway.

      3. Avoid day dreaming about LO. LO daydreams will be nice until you’ve programmed yourself and your brain starts doing it automatically. Your brain will put LO in your thoughts even when you don’t want LO in your thoughts. The intrusive thoughts phase is very unpleasant.

      4. LOs are people with their own values and agendas. They can “go off script” any time and it can cause you a lot of problems when they do. Be ready. I was already very much against disclosure to LO, but I wasn’t expecting my LO to disclose to me when he did. I kind of wish I had lied and said that I wasn’t attracted to him.

      5. Know your standards. Set your own boundaries. Be ready to hold true to who you want to be.

      6. Find something that stimulates the same chemicals in your brain. I love runners’ high. Find what you love.

      Good luck, everyone!

      • I don’t feel I disagree with you on disclosure, just that in my circumstance it was almost impossible for it not to happen. But I think your view on it is the better view with maybe very narrow exceptions.

    • I had a couple of serious cries a in the past couple of weeks and I would feel a bit better about it all . Sunday nights are so melancholy for me.

      Could you let me down?
      I don’t feel it now,
      I’m letting my head collapse on itself.
      Could you need me now?
      I can’t see how,
      I think I’m forgetting how to breathe out.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g3arybXCRE

      • I’m sorry you are struggling, Rufio. Can you tell me something good? Maybe three things that went well today. I’ll go first.

        We attended a special meeting for 8-year-old kids and their parents today. A woman introduced the meeting by saying we were gathered because we would learn some new things together. My soon-to-be-eight-year-old daughter raised her hand. The woman called on her. She asked, “Will we be doing math?” All the adults laughed and looked at me and my SO. Kids can be so embarrassingly funny.

        My 14-year-old wants to earn money for Valentine’s Day. She rubbed my feet for 3 hours while we watched TV together.

        My husband made dinner tonight and I didn’t have to.

        Now tell me three things that went well today.

        • I had a really good weekend actually. I was just replying to speed confirming that I too had cried in the last few weeks. A good breakdown can help things out from time to time.

    • To me the LE itself was not so bad – it was the mixed signals and the inconsistent reciprocation, and then the horrible “break-up”, that caused the real pain. A PA that ended badly would always have caused pain, of course, but that is not due to the LE per se – more the heartache, which DrL has addressed in the excellent blog post linked above.

      These are great tips, Speedwagon. I am trying, with varying degrees of success, to be very LC (we have to see each other for work about once a month, and at other events sometimes). Unfortunately I can’t keep interactions routine and predictable – LO called me the other week about a work thing (when an email would have worked) and was super chatty, friendly, and even asked if we could have a drink together after an upcoming event we were both going to attend. Like an idiot, I said ok; I was hoping that would be when I could finally let him have it about how he has treated me- we’re going on 8 months since he ended our affair in an abrupt, cruel manner and we STILL haven’t addressed it, mainly because we’ve never been alone since. Of course he never turned up to the event, never wrote to say he wouldn’t be coming, never apologised for “standing me up”. I didn’t contact him either, just left the event at the end. I am proud of myself for doing that – a successful moment of choice!

      All this is to say that I agree with Lovisa’s point (your tips were very useful, too, Lovisa!) that LOs are unpredictable. Mine is an absolute bloody nightmare – Skinner himself couldn’t have designed a more intermittent schedule of breadcrumbs (in our phone conversation he even started one remark with “Look, I do miss you, [TP], and there are 100 different topics I could have called you about…”.) and he sends me articles of interest and flirts now and then But there have been at least two occasions over the last few months where he has suggested we meet and never come through. And never said a word about it afterwards.

      I’ve actually been doing better over the last month or so, though, and what has helped me is keeping a list on my phone of all of his faults – some are petty/superficial, some are significant ways he has treated me poorly or exhibited turn-off behaviour — and looking at it multiple times a day. Ditto with turning fantasies/daydreams into nightmares.

      I would add another tip – like others here, I have found using Daylio (or similar app/calendar) is a great way of seeing a “reward” for NC when you mark off a day. On the days I don’t look at his photos, re-read old emails/chat histories, etc I get a tick. So far my longest stretch is 8 days but I am aiming for more.

  3. I read “Why limerence feels so good”, as highlighted by Kiva’s comment, yesterday and today I have read and reread the above latest blog. I can’t always remember every detail of the fascinating science but it has felt so helpful, rather like a safety net, to try to understand what has happened.

    I am really struggling. I had to go NC because of the complete impracticalities and dangers of the three year all-consuming LE. It dawned on me rather late in the day that we could not just be friends. My LO is much younger than me and he now has a baby as well as a SO. There was limerence on both sides (understandably erratic on his part) but, after a Christmas message exchange, he is “ghosting” me. Illogically, this has hurt so much and I find myself checking the WhatsApp messages several times a day in case the grey ticks may have gone blue.

    Whilst I have deleted the video clips and have hidden his photos and a letter, I cannot yet bring myself to delete the WhatsApp details and the affectionate (never sexual) exchanges. I think I must plan to do that eventually.

    I have pieced together a lot from hours spent studying this site – reasons etc., and, because of the ghosting (it may have partly been a sort of “cancer ghosting”), I reckon I can do this now and, I sometimes feel that the shackles are loosening. Every morning I wake up with the sickening thud of the LE, however, and I am flooded with intrusive thoughts for much of the day.

    The purposeful living issue is clearly the way forward. Having been unwell with this and that, plus having just had a dose of covid, I think this will be a challenge. I guess you can do purposeful living gently though!

    Disenfranchised grief…. That’s another interesting twist too.

    I guess I wrote this comment to express thanks for the blogs, to wish everyone success in their diverse struggles and for a sort of catharsis.

    All best wishes

    F

  4. In my 40+ years of life experience, limerent pain is the worst pain I have experienced, of any kind. And I have been through a ‘few’ things in my life. I metaphorically keep a little ‘vial’ of this emotional pain with me at all times as a place to return to, if needed, if I am ever tempted by limerent energy or my most significant past LO. Allow this pain to continue motivating you and to resist temptation, and never allow this very painful life lesson go to waste. After all, you paid a very significant price for it.

    • I have these thoughts as well. The agony of limerence has been worse than the pain of losing beloved friends and family members in death. It horrifies me to even acknowledge this, but it is so. The physical pain at times made me wonder if I was having a heart attack and if there is now damage to the heart muscle.

      I felt the glimmer recently for a celebrity who, to my surprise, reached out to me with a social media friend request which I didn’t accept nor delete. He’s someone I’ve always found attractive and I stated reading interviews with him, reading all about his accomplishments and interests and watching videos of him. It was exciting and I absurdly started to feel I had a connection to him. Fortunately a wise friend begged me to delete the friend request reminding me of limerence potential!! I found the strength to do so but that night I had many intense dreams involving the celebrity. I felt that Limerence had already begin to kick in. I am so glad I made a decisive move to “nip things in the bud” before limerence had truly taken root. It took a few days but I feel safe now and back to my senses.

      I don’t know if I could survive another bout of full blown limerence and forcing myself to face the price one pays for indulging in it is a worthy exercise.

      My goal is to remain limerence free for the rest of my life and each day that passes with shields up is a victory.

      • Jaideux,
        “I felt the glimmer recently for a celebrity who, to my surprise, reached out to me with a social media friend request which I didn’t accept nor delete. … It took a few days but I feel safe now and back to my senses….I don’t know if I could survive another bout of full blown limerence and forcing myself to face the price one pays for indulging in it is a worthy exercise. …My goal is to remain limerence free for the rest of my life and each day that passes with shields up is a victory.”
        A similar thing happened to me. Like you, I have been limerence free for a while. But then I went to a meetup group and this guy started talking to me … and I could feel it. That churning, burning, is-this-guy-flirting-with-me feeling. Oh, did I mention his wife was in the group, too? I did go back to the group. Just once more. This time it was obvious he was flirting with me. I later posted a comment to the group site thinking he’d respond. He didn’t. And I checked the group’s site for new events for a couple of weeks, seeing if maybe he signed up but she hadn’t. But they apparently go as a team. 🙂 But I haven’t been back to an event. I’m totally over it. Don’t want to see him. And I’m glad this time I recognized the glimmer and started to question it. Do I really want to do this to myself again with an unavailable guy? And I like your word: indulging. I indulged a bit and then I stopped myself. And I’m glad I did. It is possible to put the kibosh on these feelings.

        • Hey Marcia!
          We have come so far, haven’t we? The old me would have run headlong into another addictive, destructive, soul
          crushing dalliance with faux love and yet we did it! We backed away victoriously! We have applied all the LwL trainings and we will continue to! Brava on us and Bravo to Dr. L. 🙂

        • “Bravo to Dr. L.”
          Yes, this site has been instrumental. I also highly recommend the Crappy Childhood Fairy. She had a youtube video I was watching the other day about how limerence is a parasite. It robs you of your life and your time.
          I do still worry about limerence, though. This guy was someone I could easily walk away from and never have to see again. Not like a co-worker.
          But what was interesting was … he wasn’t as appealing to me the second time I saw him. It was a live music/dancing event. And I got up pretty close to him … and he had a bit of stinky-stank! I thought: Dude needs a shower! Whereas the old me might not have even noticed. 🙂 It makes me a bit sad, though. The death of romantic idealization. Maybe I’ve become one of those “realist” types I used to decry. 🙂

        • Marcia,

          “Maybe I’ve become one of those “realist” types I used to decry. 🙂”

          Welcome to the club!

          The Double Secret initiations occur every February 30! DrL presides.

          As part of your Welcome Aboard Package, you’ll receive one of these

          https://www.harborfreight.com/2-12-lb-neon-orange-dead-blow-hammer-69003.html so you can hit yourself upside the head when you know better but feel like doing something really stupid anyway

          and a framed print of https://external-preview.redd.it/y9zqIBchUez-EIzXZPhxmRWoDixoGjx0LjW8Xq8NTQY.jpg?auto=webp&v=enabled&s=1d888eea5e814d4e4ab6fe0cd5fefc3a927b38c4

          Glad you could join us! 🙂

        • Marcia,
          “Welcome to the club!”
          I don’t want to be part of it. 🙂 I don’t particularly like logical types. I’m going to “pull a Limerent Emeritus” and paste song lyrics here. 🙂

          When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful
          A miracle, oh, it was beautiful, magical
          And all the birds in the trees, well they’d be singing so happily
          Oh, joyfully, oh, playfully watching me
          But then they sent me away to teach me how to be sensible
          Logical, oh, responsible, practical
          Then they showed me a world where I could be so dependable
          Oh, clinical, oh, intellectual, cynical

          The wonderful, the fantastic Supertramp. “The Logical Song.”

          Living without limerence … a lot healthier, a lot more present in my own life, not living in fantasy land … but feeling a heck of a lot less.

        • The sad reality is that purposeful living will never give us those self destructive highs!

          But I’m finally at the point where I’m ok with that. The pain outweighed the pleasure.

      • This is exactly how my limerence episode with a celebrity started over 3 years ago! I accepted his request (in response to mine) and Celebrity he may be but he still engages with me in an on/off basis regularly – sending my into a huge limerent spin. This man has taken over my world and I cringe that Iv been hanging on to our private interactions (which I usually initiate but could definitely be construed as flirty from his end)! It’s given such intense highs and equally the crippling lows. No doubt he’s got a few other women in such a spin- almost like abuse of his position and power to create star struck-ness. I see the logic I know I need to break away from him but as is the way with limerence I just can’t. I can’t. Iv even tried the de-programming course and everything which eased it but didn’t break it (maybe I just didn’t want to-agghhhh!) but I will say this this blog has been an incredible- and the only- life line out there in the relief it brings in helping me to understand my feelings and seeing that I’m not only in this beautiful & horrific nightmare. You did right to not act on that glimmer seriously well done! x

  5. #3 Wow. How can I forgive myself? She didnt ask me to be stupid for her. Im the idiot at fault. She didnt ask for this. She probably doesnt wonder wtf after 8 months now while she can still bring me to my knees.

    “How can you help it when the music starts to play
    And your ability to reason is swept away
    Oh-oh-oh, heaven on earth is all you see”

  6. Yes I did Miss Lovisa. Fingers and toes while I watched some episode of General Hospital with her. Soaps are her thing since before we met. And it was Sally Hansen Xtreme Wear Gunmetal, one of my favorite colors of what we have. It was very nice to touch her and her be happy. Maybe I can do this.

  7. Earned my 1 week NC token today, yay.

    The pain is there but it hurts less today than yesterday. It’s both the pain of feeling loss, but also the lack of feeling that good. The high that comes from his WhatApp notification ding. I must stay strong, NC, and not entertain the what ifs running around in my brain.

  8. I don’t think I have any choice but to back off and give my LO space. It is another start to the week of cold behavior. We have some decent convos but only if I initiate them. She isn’t the type that would tell me she doesn’t want to talk either. It just kills me thinking I screwed this up somehow and it could be over any week. I know she has a lot going on but to go from what we had to this and not really knowing why is incredibly painful

    • Sorry to hear that, that sounds rough! How much longer does she have at your place of work? It’s soon correct? You might just want to focus on that date as a source of encouragement, as odd as that may sound. You are being given the gift of NC and it sounds like you are ready for it. In the meantime, I suppose just act friendly and available as you would normally, you never know when she may truly need you as a friend. I have to believe all that is going on is rough on her and maybe she is actively creating distance in preparation of her departure. I don’t get the sense you did anything wrong. Hang in there…hoping it end for you on a good note.

      As for me, I don’t know what to think these days. My disclosure fallout seems to have faded and my LO seems cheery these days. That’s good. I have spent a lot of energy putting on a good false front for her so she does not field weird or distressed by anything. I think she is doing well now. Our interactions in the office are nice and warm. I can make her smile and laugh a lot these last 2 weeks. But for me, I’m pretty much in a level of dull pain each day knowing she does not desire anything more from me than a few nice moments throughout her work day, if she even desires that? Today she came in and went straight to her desk to work without saying Hi to me at my office, that killed me a little inside. I’m just hoping that with a few weeks or months of stable routine I can fall into some level of being that doesn’t feel crappy.

      I do envy your gift of NC. Oh, and it looks like I get to meet her SO in 2 weeks at a office function we are going to have. Yay for me!

      One fun thing though…I teach a community college class in the evenings and there is a woman in the class, maybe late 20s, who has captured my attention with her looks and who makes good eye contact and smiles a lot when I teach. It was a bit intoxicating. I found myself thinking about her more than a few times last night and this morning. Maybe I can work on some transference, she would make a much better LO.

      • “Maybe I can work on some transference, she would make a much better LO.”

        Speedy…

        Transfer your limerence from your employee to your student?

        Why don’t you just get a job clearing minefields in Ukraine instead? It probably pays better and has way better optics.

        Repeat after me:

        “LO is a title, not a position.”

        • I was being a bit sarcastic. I have no intention of transferring limerence, and I doubt it would happen anyway. But the benefit of the student LO, she out of my life in 14 more weeks. Current LO might be in my life for next 20 years.

        • “LO is a title, not a position.”

          L.E. that is really good mantra to remember. Cause I would not wish limerence on my worst enemy. This is an agony no one asks for and no one should have to endure. It takes your life apart one Lego at a time until you are in pieces laying on the floor and being nothing but a nuisance to everyone around you.

      • Oh, how I love a good experiment…

        I vote for transference, Speedy. But do me a favor and keep it in your brain this time. No disclosure! No seducing the new LO. Just keep the LE to yourself.

        I’m serious, don’t seduce your student!

        Tell us your intended boundaries in advance so we can hold you accountable.

        • It would be interesting if I could. This girl has captured my attention, but for limerence to happen, I would need her to show personal interest in me as well. She would need to text me or email me or do something that shows relational pursuit. I never have that kind of occurrences with my students and I have no circumstance to get to know her personally. But maybe I’ll try catching her eye a bit more next class and hold eye contact just a little too long.

        • I understand that need for an LO to show some type of interest before limerence kicks in. Hmmmmm, this is a tricky situation. If you make efforts to trigger interest in her, you may be seducing her. Can she just be a source of fantasy without showing any interest in you?

          I’m sensitive to her experience because my LO1 was my teacher at the community college and he intentionally seduced me. It’s not a good idea.

        • Yes, I have no intention of trying to seduce anyone for many reasons. I’m not sure I even could, I have pretty low ‘game’ when it comes to women I don’t know. If I ever had to try to meet a women at a bar I am fairly sure I would fail miserably.

          Yes, this woman could be just a fun crush, I have a few of those, but they don’t replace the limerence I have for LO. I have had many fun crushes over the last 25 years since LO#2 and then LO#3 happened and threw my life into turmoil. At this point I prefer to ruminate over the fun crushes rather than LO so maybe I lean into this one a bit.

        • Atta boy, Speedy. Lean into it. I like your attitude.

          I’ll tell you some of the stuff that LO1 did to me back in the day.

          He had a couple of tricks to get me alone. I am a bit of a straight A student. I really get into the lessons, I love learning and I tend to do well. He would mark stuff wrong on my tests so I would stay after class to discuss it. Sometimes he would make little mistakes in his lectures so I would stay after class to get clarification. Then he had ways to keep me longer. He is just a likable person with great conversation skills. Also, he used some of the questions from “36 Questions to Make Anyone Fall in Love With You.” It hadn’t been published at the time, so I guess he got them from someplace else. But some of them are oddly specific and they stuck in my memory. So when I read the article, years later, I was surprised and quite angry.

          Don’t do these things! I’m just telling you the crazy things a person might do to win someone over.

          I felt confused. I could feel myself getting drawn to him and I couldn’t figure out why it was happening. One day he was playing with a dry-erase marker and it tapped repeatedly against his wedding ring. The sound grated on me. I didn’t like my attention being drawn to the fact that he was married. That moment is when I realized that I had fallen for him. I was married, too. I was very naive and full of shame when I realized I was attracted to someone besides my husband.

          Anyway, don’t do that stuff to your student. Just keep it in your head.

  9. I am into almost 3 months of NC with LO
    As I know that this was the best thing to do, I was incredibly hard!
    I felt pretty good after about 6 weeks but it all came crashing back again during week 7.
    I’m doing ok now but I feel FLAT, like I have no emotions whatsoever! I hope this will pass, but on the bright side, I am more involved in life stuff now. I also have a glimmer that maybe this whole darn thing will eventually help me grow into a whole new person.
    Has anyone else go through this ugly “flat” stage?

    • Yes, I fully understand. I am smack dab in the middle of a flat stage. But, I find I function better with flat but stable emotions over euphoric highs and depressive lows. Being flat feels like the next place to be in the progression of healing, I just don’t know how long it will last. I’m guessing as long as my LE lasts.

      • Yes, I do agree that “flat” is better than high/low.
        I do feel like a zombie though.
        At least I can function through everyday tasks again, for I while I couldn’t even do that.
        Like I said to Adam, why? oh why? do we waste our precious time with this?
        But having said that I do believe I can catch a peak every once in a while of the end of the tunnel.
        I don’t know how some can have more than one LE? I would be mush! LOL

        • Anna, I think you might benefit from a short YouTube video about intrusive thoughts.

          https://youtu.be/laeYq51SYA0

          Just in case the link doesn’t work, it is called “How to Deal with Intrusive Thoughts” and it is by Mark Freeman.

    • Yes Miss Anna I have. It has been 8 months since LO left my life and have had NC. She made the decision herself, a former co-worker, to move on with a new job and her gentleman friend after a really bad divorce. I met her when she was single.

      I have good days/weeks and bad days/weeks. Something reminded me of LO recently and so its not been a good week as far as the intrusive thoughts and memories of the times with her.

      Flat is a good analogy. For people that like soda, no one likes it flat and that’s how I feel right now. I don’t have the energy for most things and am just going through the motions and putting on a front for people to not know that I am dying inside.

      I hate that it can be the most mundane things that remind me of LO. In this case I was watching the original King Kong before I went bed Sunday night while having some drinks. And all of sudden BAM Fay Wray is in this. Fay is LO’s middle name. Memory of LO sharing that information as part of conversation. Something she didn’t ever have to tell me but did. Teased her I liked the name Fay maybe I should start calling you Fay. LO saying it was okay if I called her Fay. Me now missing LO again already. The cycle starts again …..

      • I know, Adam! My LO and I liked the same music, I don’t even listen to the radio anymore. Everyday something reminds me of him. sad…
        This is my first encounter with Limerence so I’m off the rails so to speak.

        Why do we waste our precious time with this? so unnerving!
        Especially because there is no chance that LO and I could be together~zero~zilch.

        AND, I believe he was a Narcissist to boot!
        Yet, here I am, searching this site everyday hoping for answers why I feel the way I do.

        • It’s my first time too and if I can get past it I hope to God I never experience it again. I don’t like not being in control of my emotions. It is something I have worked tireless in my life to not let get out of control. And here LO comes around and with no intentional effort she completely captivates me and takes control. She could call at anytime and any hurt or pain I feel I would totally forgive her for just in the hopes to talk to her again. It is so tiring.

          Yeah music is a tough one too. I never cared much for country music but LO did. I was just going through my youtube playlist to look for a specific song a few days ago and finally consciously noticed how many new songs added to my playlist were country. Ugh.

  10. I was having some deep thoughts about my current experience with limerence and the feeling of being in constant dull pain over LO but reaping the benefits of life change that LE brings versus not having dull pain, but being a happy complacent in life. I can’t decide which is better?

    Before LE my relationship with SO was a bit in cruise control with less libido and less general affection towards her. Since LE I have been more “into” SO and our relationship has never been closer. Also before LE I was far less in good health than I am now. Since LE I eat better, workout, and generally am more aware of healthy things emotionally and physically. These are all great things…yet I still live life right now with heavy intrusive thoughts of LO and a general sense of dull pain over her.

    I am starting to think that even though the pain sucks big time, the side effects in my life have been positive and beneficial and the bit of pain is worth it over the generally happy complacent state I was in. I feel if I can endure long enough the pain of LE may fade but the benefits will stay.

    • I can concur on similar changes in my life. Having lost weight to be more healthy and having greatly reduced my smoking to almost nothing. Having changes in wardrobe and fashion have given more self confidence than before. My self and my self image has vastly improved.

      But my relationship with my wife has been (but even before too) not good after LE and LO. Disclosure didn’t do what I was hoping it would do. I don’t get much understanding from my wife in regards to my limerence. She thinks I am just participating in a one sided EA and it a conscious choice to do so. We are just two people living in the same house.

      So as an individual I do think that LE and LO made some improvements to my self. But my life in of itself is still a mess and I am still in limbo as to how to move forward with purpose. Because I don’t want to live this life of a marriage on auto pilot and intrusive thoughts of another woman in my head. And this feeling of selfishness in wanting to prioritize improving myself further.

      • But following your story, it seems as if your LE at minimum has given you the desire to fix your relationship with your wife and there have been better moments over the lastvfew months.

        I have not disclosed to my SO for a few reasons, biggest being that she would be quite hurt by all this. She has a very conservative view of outside of marriage men/women relationships. I’m not willing to step into that arena with her seeing that I am not in an EA or PA and am taking steps to minimize my LE turmoil. Right now I am in a stable place and my relationship with SO is on good solid ground. I don’t want to disrupt that.

        I hope over time you can get back on track with your wife as well.

        • Yes I would rather fix it, if possible, than for it to end. I do need to bring the subject back to the table at least one more time to get a feel for what is going on in her head. I understand if she is angry and hurt and doesn’t want to forgive me. She too is very conservative on the subject. But it’s unintentionally been a suspicion of hers for a while now so disclosure was my hopes to educate her on what I am going through as best I could for just having learned about it. Right now we are just in this limbo where I am trying to give her space on the subject but she seems determined to let it lie as it is. But that’s just going to make things worse for us.

          And thank you. I hope so too.

        • If I were the SO to either of you, I would NOT be troubled by your LE. I would love the benefits! The reason I would not be troubled is that, although you both have moments of believing you would blow up your lives to be with LO, I don’t think either of you would actually do it. I think both of you are committed to marriage. Both of you were “tested” by a beautiful female and both of you passed the test. True that there wasn’t mutual limerence that we know of, but you still passed. Hopefully if another LO comes along, you will pass that test, too.

          This may sound crazy, but since I learned the benefits of an LE, I kind of want to inflict my SO with it. I’m thinking about hiring a sexy personal trainer to work with him. Hmmmmm

        • Lovisa,

          “This may sound crazy, but since I learned the benefits of an LE, I kind of want to inflict my SO with it. I’m thinking about hiring a sexy personal trainer to work with him. Hmmmmm”

          Seriously? You’re an adult with agency. So is your SO. SO, is the sexy personal trainer.

          As long as you’re willing to live with the consequences, go for it. There are risks you have to take and risks you choose to take. This would be in the latter category. If it goes south on you, it might be regrettable but it wouldn’t be tragic.

          Could be a great Case Study for DrL. “I Induced and LE in my SO.”

    • I have a similar experience. I had a pretty normal life, nothing too hard, nothing too exciting but since my LO disclosed to me, I pushed the gas on personal improvement. I changed my hair, I invested and put more effort on make up and wardrobe. My libido showed up after YEARS of numbness, I am still alive! I thought. My LO is a bad LO and he is a serial flirt but somehow I feel lucky he saw me as object of desire. It is sad as I am a grown woman, highly educated and award winning in my profession. How did I let myself fall for just a hot guy?

      • Wow reading that old post of mine …. that hits like a sledge hammer.

        Silly Rabbit …

        Wait now I want some Trix. Sorry that triggered a childhood memory lol

        Because at a subconscious level you are improving yourself for LO. It may seem like self improvement, and God bless LwL’s angel Miss Lovisa, but at this point in the this whole scenario of mine this is where I have found I disagree with her on the “benefits” of a limerent episode.

        While loosing weight and cutting back smoking did benefit me (and make my cardiologist happy) it was for all the wrong reasons. Am I happy I found my own fashion style and give two ____ what other people think? Yes. Am I proud to look good for my wife when we go out together? Dressing my best for her? Yes. But is that why I did all those things in the first place? No. I did it to get her attention. And everyone else I worked with saw and knew it, even if limerence blinded me to why I was doing it then. But I see it now. For me at a moral level, the ends don’t justify the means. Just because all those things improved my mental and physical health they still should have been done for myself and/or my wife, not her.

        “but somehow I feel lucky he saw me as object of desire”

        Because we are all human and we all like to get attention/get noticed. It’s why a lot of LO’s do things to garner the limerent’s attention. It’s flattering, and who doesn’t like flattery? There’s two sides to the limerent coin and if the LO engages the limerent it just prolongs the limerent episode. If the limerent doesn’t have the fortitude to stop the episode and the LO stokes the limerent’s fire than it will never end because both are enjoying what they are experiencing. It takes a lot of self awareness on both party’s part to be the responsible person.

        Wishing you luck and hoping that the community here will be a help to you.

  11. “When it comes to limerence, there is no direct injury. Emotional pain is generated from thoughts, not nails or hot stoves or arthritic joints. The subjective experience of emotional pain arises when peace of mind is destroyed by a sudden reversal in fortune or unexpected disaster. When hopes are dashed.”

    Emotional pain is generated by thoughts alone, huh? Does no one else find that profound? I.e. I’m being hurt by my own thoughts? 😲

    “Trapped in this mental loop, the body transitions into a state of constant stress. Pain activates what’s known as the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis, where hormone release from the pituitary causes the adrenal glands to release cortisol, the stress hormone. This is what leads to many of the physical symptoms of heartache.”

    A state of constant stress pretty much sums up limerence for me. A state of constant stress that’s very hard to escape. But a state of constant stress that can be weirdly pleasurable … if and only if one still believes there’s a pot of gold at the end of the (imaginary?) rainbow. And, obviously, if the body is subject to stress for too a period, one’s mental and physical health can begin to break down… 😢

    I have a theory about the relationship between pain and limerence and this is my theory: pain, in the form of all-pervasive emotional discomfort/free-floating anxiety, motivates humans to seek out companionship in general and romantic companionship specifically.

    Dorothy Tennov, for example, mentions in her book how Mother Nature seems to endow limerents with a “huge fund of energy”, and this fund of energy I guess is supposed to help the limerent pursue and win over their limerent object. It’s the reason so many limerents feel manic, and can’t relax, eat, sleep, etc. I am no stranger to this “huge fund of energy”. (It was worst when I was a teenager). I have also spent time with a fellow limerent who worked all day in a stressful job and then wanted to go for a run in the middle of the night!! (Where oh where did he get the energy? Um, now I know…) 😆

    Let’s frame it another way. I believe limerence can make people feel intensely uncomfortable in their own skin, like they can’t sit still. Limerence makes people believe that there’s something out there in the external environment that they’re supposed to find in order to “soothe their pain”. What is this rare treasure that limerents are meant to find? Well, in evolutionary terms, I think this rare treasure is a mate (romantic and reproductive partner).

    Like most limerents, I’m an introvert. When I’m not in an active state of limerence, I’m actually extremely shy and lazy and uncommunicative and self-contained and independent, and don’t make much effort to interact with people, because social interactions aren’t that rewarding to me. I don’t get energy from people. Solitary hobbies are rewarding to me. Reading a book/absorbing knowledge is rewarding to me. Limerence changed all that. Limerence reversed my introvert programming. All of a sudden, I was GETTING energy from people!! 😲

    In a nutshell, limerence was this strange, almost biological “pain” I felt forced me to get up off my backside, go out into the world, and interact with people in a way I never had bothered to before, simply because the sudden involuntary emergence of my “mating instinct” made some people very, very rewarding to be around. I now see, however, that this sensation of “some people are super-rewarding” is actually an illusion. Right now, at the moment, I don’t find people particularly rewarding. My hormones played a little trick on me, in other words.

    I have been thinking about the difference between gay men and straight men, and why it is so hard for gay men and straight men to be friends, despite good intentions on both sides. I have come to the realisation that I don’t just have an aesthetic response to male beauty; I also have a hormonal response to male beauty. (My hormones spike whenever I see a beautiful male, and I experience this spike in my hormones as pleasurable and I want to keep experiencing this pleasurable spike – again and again and again. The feelings involved are truly exquisite). 😉

    Straight men, on the other hand, are perfectly capable of having an aesthetic response to male beauty. Straight men are not blind. Straight men, however, do NOT experience a hormonal response to male beauty. Straight men presumably experience an intensely pleasurable hormonal spike in their bodies in response to female beauty – or they experience such a spike if they are “heterolimerent”. 🤔

    I am looking forward to the day when I only have aesthetic responses to male beauty and no longer have hormonal responses to male beauty, as I honestly have found “homolimerence” to be an incredibly disappointing and exhausting psychological condition. To be so emotionally affected by people who are not at all emotionally affected by me is just … tiresome, after a while. Happily, I am moving towards purely aesthetic responses to male beauty. I have observed my hormonal responses growing less and less with the passage of time. The pleasurable spikes come less and less often, and are less intense when they do occur.

    I have also been thinking about limerence and INFJs who report happy childhoods and no attachment issues. Why do such INFJs still experience limerence at much higher rates than the rest of the population? My theory is that INFJs have above-average levels of empathy. You guys are just really good at absorbing other people’s emotions. And maybe this super-sensitivity is what makes you prone to limerence (as opposed to unresolved childhood trauma, for instance)? 😉

  12. Sammy, I am an INFP and I am incredibly sensitive to emotions and body language. My LO even jokes about me being an empath as I have surprised her several times by being able to pick up subtle things in her moods. As she started having a lot of stress in the last month over family, wedding, and career.

    I could “feel” a door had closed to everyone else. She is naturally an incredibly friendly and warm person but she became distant in a way most others can’t see. I explained it to her that her light simply isn’t shining as bright and she told me about some of the stuff going on.

    Of course, this all matters to me because I suffer greatly from that distance and door closure. It has left me in shambles plenty of nights and scrambling to try to cheer her up when I can’t. That is pain. No matter how much I tell myself it isn’t personal and she doesn’t think of me the same way I am often hurt by her lack of effort in return. Even when I am having a good day in the evenings my thoughts will find a way to remind me that even though she said yesterday she wasn’t busy she never came by to see me. They remind me to be jealous of the people who sit in the same office as her who she talks to even though she’s known them a third of the time she’s know me. In the end it is all pain.

      • I have! I actually heard him talk about it on a podcast while I was looking for any kind of help. That was how I found this site.

    • “In the end it is all pain.”

      Truth. No matter what relational paradigm I find myself in with LO it just all seems to lead to pain.

      • Yep,

        Sometimes, you can look at things from over/under, 360 degrees, and you still can’t get to a fairy-tale ending. Because, there isn’t one.

        I should probably be saying this to a bunch of active limerents but for me, it’s like this.

        I never see myself ever reengaging LO #2. I don’t think I’ll ever be in a position to attempt to reengage LO #4 and I don’t know where my head would be since if I was available again, something terrible happened in my life.

        Ever watch “How I Met Your Mother?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOUtVnNA-k8

        But, it’s funny, LO #4 and I used to talk about cooking. When she was confiding in me, she’d go into great detail about buying ingredients and cooking. She made the comment that her Ex could barely open a can of soup. I’m a decent cook. Semi-homemade was invented for me. When I cook, I see myself cooking for LO #4. She owes me two Grand Marniers after losing a bet. I’ll never see those but I still can envision sitting at a table drinking them with her. Never gonna happen.

        The other really kind of scary one is there are a few songs in which I see myself dancing with LO #4 at our wedding reception. I know exactly what she’s wearing. My wife’s parents are there. I never actually met LO #2 but we were pretty deep in the weeds for a few years. I can envision getting married to LO #4, I can’t envision being married to LO #4.

        It’s another pipe dream that I hope I’m never in the position to carry out. But, as Scott Adams noted in his dreams about flying, it’s kind of cool.

        In a general comment about recent threads, there’s a difference between using an LE as a springboard to living your best life. It happened, it’s over, what can I learn from it?

        It’s another thing to try to manage an LE for things like mood regulation. That difference has to do with the role your LO plays in your life.

        In the former, the LO has no real place in your life, exerts no direct influence and you transcend limerence. Your LE might feel like it’s worthy of grand opera. Poets should write sonnets about it. The right tear jerker comes on and you buy the grocery story out of Ben and Jerry’s Cherry Garcia. But, you’re past it.

        In the latter, your LO exerts direct influence on you and you make decisions accordingly.

        You’re not free, yet.

        • “I never actually met LO #4 but we were pretty deep in the weeds for a few years.”

          There are contractors drywalling my kitchen. It’s distracting.

    • Rufio,

      What you said reminds me of a quote I saw somewhere online ….

      “I miss you so much that I am jealous of the people that get a chance to see you every day.”

      I feel that in my bones every day.

      • Ooof! Adam, I realized walking the other day what the distance I felt from her was.

        She is already gone. Her wedding, her moving, and her being over this job. In her mind she is already somewhere else. While the motions are still gone through we are almost ghosts to her at this point. Worth a thought, a wave, or a crooked smile.

        There is only so much energy in such situations and I understand. I will always value the personal talks and warm open body language. It is gone tough she remains for at least a few more weeks.

        • I am thankful that LO was gracious to me all the way up the last day I got to see her. She was very inviting and kind to my feelings that whole day.

          In fact I remember telling Miss Lovisa when she was cleaning out the plants she had in her office I opened the front door for her and then got out in front of her to get the door to the truck and she was thankful. She usually didn’t being treated “lady like” like that but she let me do that for her.

          It would have been difficult if she had “checked out” with me before she left so I can understand some what, how that is for you. And I am sure it is painful.

          For me in some ways complete NC is good despite it being painful. I miss her greatly but even if I got a call here and there it might make it worse. Of course as I am typing this I hope she calls someday so I’m my own hypocrite.

          Hoping things get better for you Rufio.

  13. Sammy thinking on the relationship of limerence and MBTI types, being an ISFJ brings me to the realization of what drew me to LO and why I fell for her so hard. I never really even thought about my personality type being a factor in my limerence. But it is. A huge factor.

    She was a woman in distress. She had no one to help her. She was alone. Trying hard to overcome the stresses in her life. I can help her!!!!! I was alive with purpose; to help her any way I could. Help her with her work load. Listen whenever she wanted to talk. Absorb her negative feelings and reciprocate with positive ones. Pull out her negative energy and take it on myself so she could be happier. Protect her (from a pos cheating ex still trying to be in her life). Every single personality trait I had came out with LO. It was a compulsion.

    The pain and the emptiness now that she is gone. The lack of purpose. She doesn’t need me anymore. She has someone else now. So she moved on with him. Yes he is better for LO than I could ever be. Yes he’s a good and caring man. But now what do I do without this purpose? Did LO really ever need me? Does she even remember me?

    Indeed, in the end it is all pain.

    “But if there is someone that makes you feel happy
    Tends to your heart in the ways I’d been lacking
    Then who am I, who am I to stand in your way
    That I feel is no longer your burden
    If there is someone that can make you feel perfect
    Than who am I, who am I to stand in your way”

  14. L.E.

    “You Don’t Know Me” – Jerry Vale (1961)
    I could really relate to this one. I had to watch her walk away with his hand in hers just like the song. Very lucky guy. And I hope he remembers that every day. Because he aint gonna want me to have to remind him.

  15. I feel like there’s three stages to limerence and recovery. First comes the euphoria, then the pain, then the disappointment and “blah” feelings. I’m currently in the third phase. Limerence has basically worn off, and I definitely think limerence was a negative force in my life, yet there were some positive aspects to it. There was some excitement, hope for the future and drive towards self-improvement. Much of that is gone. My job performance has improved dramatically and I no longer think of my LO day and night, but I miss having the dream of being with her (even if I knew deep down it would never come to fruition). I also miss having the desire for self-improvement, particularly with respect to diet and exercise. Now that the limerence has essentially worn off, I struggle to make it to the gym, go on my long walks or eat in a more healthy manner. It’s as if I miss being able to harness the positive aspects of limerence (there are some, even if it feels miserable and painful once the initial euphoria and excitement wears off).

    Like previous LOs, I still retain some affection for my current/former LO. I still like her, but I am kind of disappointed with her because she basically ditched my friend group and I have heard she may have even tried to scam one of my other friends. I struggle with the likelihood that she probably isn’t the person I thought she was. Despite the limerence basically being gone, I really miss her, but I think I miss the person I thought she was rather than who she really is. I also miss her friendship, even if things will never be the same again. Other members of my friend group say I shouldn’t take a side in the dispute between my LO and my other friend (hell, even my wife, who is very jealous of my LO, is telling me I’m being too hard on my LO!), but because I thought I was in love with her thinking she may be less than honest was really a blow to my opinion of her and my memories of the time we spent together. I haven’t seen her in ages, but I recently reached out to her. She explained to me that she is really busy and misses hanging out with our group, so I don’t know where this will end up. Maybe I will never see her again, or maybe my other friend will be angry that I reached out to her. I understand she is likely dating someone now, and for the first time I don’t think that would bother me too much, even if I end up meeting the guy (although passionate public displays of affection between the two of them might just set me off).

    • “I also miss having the desire for self-improvement, particularly with respect to diet and exercise.”

      I have this issue too. I just saw my doctor (cardiologist) last month and he’s like “you gained 5 lbs don’t let it all come back”. I lost 40 lbs back in 2021 and have mostly kept it off since. And honestly I was surprised it wasn’t more. But I haven’t been exercising much and while my diet is still healthy its not as good as it could be and as good as it was.

      My wife doesn’t too much care about my appearance, as in she’s okay with the way I am now. But way back when I went from 215 down to 170 someone noticed. LO made a comment one day about how she was just now noticing I had lost weight. Which of course was fuel to keep it off. When a pretty young lady notices you improving your body, that just throwing fuel on the fire. Now I find I don’t have the motivation much to maintain self improvement. I just do it enough so my doctor doesn’t hassle me.

      • Thanks Adam. I am glad others can relate to this. I lost quite a bit of weight a couple of years ago and got really serious with working out and going on long walks. I have regained some of that weight and have become very inconsistent and lazy when it comes to working out. But I have committed to myself that today is the day I start right back at it!

        For some reason, reaching out to my LO made me feel a little better. I wanted her to know I miss her and I’m still thinking of her. She is also dealing with a bit of a health scare right now, so I am a bit worried about her. Being able to think a bit less highly of her due to her alleged dishonesty with my other friend has helped with my recovery a bit because it took her down off that pedestal. On the other hand, I’m not ready to completely give up on her or write her off. I’m just not willing to chase after her too much or kiss her ass.

  16. Wow, first, thank you so much for maintaining this blog. My case of limerence is going on strong now…3 years this fall. I am starting to think my obsessive/intrusive thinking is crossing the mental illness line now, and I don’t know where to begin to seek help.

    For context, my LO and I began a “situationship” during quarantine. It was blooming into a beautiful thing until distant brought us apart. A few months later they came home to visit and we had a December fling. Things went out of hand with gossip and it sort of ended there. We did not speak much after that unless it was the occasional social media comment or hanging through a mutual friend, I could probably count the number of instances on two hands.

    Two months later I found the best partner I’ve had yet. They are patient with all of my other quirks and truly loves me for me. Of course we have our little bickering such as any other couple but we do make a pretty great duo. There’s just one issue…my limerence! I managed to keep it a secret from my partner for 2 years now. The imaginative thinking…there is so much more context to my thoughts but I cannot share just to keep privacy…Oh and of course there was the social media stalking. Last fall I discovered they now have a partner and this influenced a depression spiral about for a week. Yes, I am aware of how ironic this is when I have a partner of my own whom I love and who loves me.

    This past New Year’s I decided enough was on enough and I removed them from just about all social media. This went really well, until I began looking them up on other social medias. This, along my maladaptive daydreaming, is so much to handle. It always has been but I was able to shut it behind a door in my head, now I can’t.

    Typing that last sentence really sealed in the concept of that limerence “high”. It’s like an entirely different headspace when I’m thinking of my LO that I don’t even realize the ethical boundaries I’m passing, as well as how far my sanity is going.

    Thanks for reading this far if you did…I’m going to start therapy, but I am looking for any other suggestions for someone as down bad as I am. I know I should tell my partner about this for honesty’s sake, but how do I even go about that? I know it will break their heart, and that is the worst outcome of this entire situation.

  17. Hello everyone. Really good to find this site. I have been in an LE for the past one year. Keep having intrusive thoughts in my head that I cannot seem to control. Would like to get better, and know what to do, but it seems very hard. Married with kids, had a loss in the family sometime back. Would really appreciate thoughts and suggestions. Thanks for listening.

  19. This resonates – it’s where I am at the moment.
    I thought I’d beaten limerence, but it just came back with a bigger stick. I’m mid-40’s, somewhat stale marriage, kids.
    Sadly, LO reports directly to me at work, so NC isn’t an option. I’ve tried judicious LC, but that’s very difficult.
    When I don’t see her for a few days, it’s relatively easy for me to minimise my rumination, but as soon as I see her again… Bam – limerence! There’s huge uncertainty: she’s always friendly and we have a good rapport. We bond over our similar tastes in music.
    I think it’s particularly devastating to me because I have always had a great fear of being left, and I’m losing her over and over again in my mind.
    I’m really afraid that I’m causing her pain as well, but I hope that’s the one good part of all this – the bad stuff is as much a figment of my imagination as the good.

    • Your situation sounds similar to mine. I’m LOs employer/boss in my small company. I have to see her and interact with her most every weekday. NC is not possible, and I practice LC as much as I can but it’s difficult. LO and I have great personal chemistry so when we interact it is nearly impossible to keep it at just a mundane work level. We always seem to bantor a bit about this and that. At minimum I try not to spend any alone time with her, and we don’t text anymore (we used to). If I can keep her contained in more of an office interaction only paradigm that is routine day in and day out I get along OK, but I still have heavy intrusive thoughts for her.

      What are some of your strategies with LC?

      • Hi Speedwagon, thanks for the reply! I’m not sure I have any useful strategies… I mostly try to restrict myself to one or two non-work related exchanges per week, and try to sit at the opposite end of the table when we have lunch as a team. Thankfully she’s grown a lot since I hired her (she’s 20 years younger than I) and is very good at her job, so I’ve been able to give her more autonomy and to lead larger projects, so she can work without my input for longer periods of time.
        I’m possibly luckier than you as she rarely initiates any conversation with me, we never text, and any direct messaging outside work results in a very polite and final three or four word response.
        Writing it down here for the first time, I guess those are pretty clear signs that she’s not interested. I just don’t want to admit it.

      • Has your LO ever shown you any clear signs of affection? Or is it all unspoken and uncertain?

      • ‘Has your LO ever shown you any clear signs of affection? Or is it all unspoken and uncertain?”

        Yes, I fell into LE with her because of signs of affection from her. She worked for me for 3.5 years before any of this happened. Though I knew she was attractive, I never paid her much attention. Then, for some reason, I started to catch a vibe off her. She would sit or stand close to me, heavy eye contact, a lot of laughing and giggling in our bantor back and forth. But what hooked me is she sent me a personal text (damn texting!) one Sunday morning about something we had talked about earlier that week. Though we text at times about work stuff, the action of that personal text crystallized the idea in my head that she was attracted to me…and guess what? I liked it! A lot! All of a sudden she went from this mildly attractive woman to the most beautiful creature on earth and all I wanted to do was interact with her more and more. And I mildly pursued her over the next 6 weeks or so. More personal texting and manufacturing some out of office excursions with her to spend time with her.

        But that is about as good as it got…her cues of attraction stayed strong. Heavy eye contact all the time, but she never really initiated much with me. We texted a bit, then around Christmas time, we texted heavy. Every day for a couple weeks. This led me to disclose to her a couple weeks later, and she was “shocked” and claimed she only felt friendship. I was shocked as well because her cues felt so strong.

        Now a days we still have great chemistry. My disclosure did not back her off at all. She still looks at me like no one else does. It’s so confusing. But we do not personal text. Texting is a HUGE trigger for me. I try to keep our interactions work related and I try not to take her anywhere with me out of office. Spending alone time with her is hugely problematic as well.

        My LO is married with young kids and is 14 years younger than me. Her SO is a nice guy but sort of a disappointment in his ability to care for her. I think she has some regret over him. Her dad died about 8 years ago, and if I were to guess at what her actual feelings are, I think she sees me as a male role model and she does seek some level of closeness from me, and her way about it does read like attraction to me. But it’s not romantic.

        So, what’s your backstory? How did you fall for LO?

        • Here’s my story…
          Around three years ago I was involved in hiring LO before I became a manager, and I was instantly attracted to her. It was clear that she was a cut above most of the other candidates in ability, professionalism and intellect, but humble as well. She’s conventionally attractive but doesn’t show off (at work at least). I noticed little things about her that I wouldn’t normally – now I realise that was the start of the glimmer.
          She got the job (I didn’t have the deciding vote) and we worked together closely for quite a while. It quickly became clear that we could communicate really well – for me at least, better than with anyone else I know (even better than my SO). At that point it felt more like a normal crush, but a few months later I was promoted and LO was placed in my team. As we got to know each other our (perceived) bond got stronger. So often we’d know what the other was thinking. Perhaps that’s more about her intuition and empathy than about me. She was more travelled, wise and curious than most of the others her age. At some point the crush developed into full-blown limerence and I couldn’t do thinking and dreaming about her – never in a sexual way, but more of a desire for connection and intimacy – to be able to brush a stray hair away from her face or just give her a hug. Once or twice I touched her arm when taking to her, something that I wouldn’t normally think twice about with other people, but with her it was a bit like I’d given her an electric shock.
          Looking back, I think there were a couple of factors at that time that ramped things up: firstly, I noticed that some of her behaviours indicated that she probably had ADHD, something I was in the process of being diagnosed with myself. Shortly after that I noticed that she was taking ADHD medication. Another imagined bond between us. She was also having some health problems at the time and I felt extremely protective and actually told her so. She then opened up to me about her illness, taking about personal things for the first time.
          Then an interesting thing happened not long after: we went for a walk after lunch with a group of people, and I was talking to LO as we walked. Suddenly I felt that a friend of hers had deliberately inserted himself between us as if to separate us. I was mortified to think that he would feel that he had to do that to protect her from me. That ended the first LE immediately!
          I thought it was all over, but limerence had its hooks in me. It was a year or so later that we started bonding over music – our musical tastes are surprisingly similar. Later also a shared love of a particular sport. We had great chats over instant messaging, but in person it felt stilted. It was around then that she sent me the message with the heart drawn in highlighter. Oof.
          But I got over it.
          LO has a long-term partner, but doesn’t talk about him. The most recent LE was when she seemed quite down. I asked if something was wrong but she said everything was fine. Shortly after, she confessed that she was going through some personal issues. I took that to mean relationship problems. Hello limerence.
          Which brings us to now. She’s gone on holiday and after some self-reflection, I’ve managed to snap out of the LE (I think). We’ll see what happens when she returns.

  20. Wow, you’ve definitely been getting more overt signals than me. It feels kinda foolish right now, but all I’m working on is enthusiastic and long conversations, liberal hearts and smiles in direct messages, the occasional getting a bit physically closer than what’s normally comfortable… and one that really threw me: she highlighted something in a document she sent me by drawing a heart around it. The problem is I know the next perceived gesture will drag me back in again.
    If I were more cynical, I’d say she might be aware of the effect she has on me and, while not exactly exploiting it, she’s not avoiding it either. When you consider the power imbalance, it’s probably fair enough. If the roles were reversed, I’d want to keep my boss on side too. Thankfully I’ve kept things low key and haven’t abused my position in any way. The best I can say is that I’d come off a bit over-enthusiastic, and at worst a bit creepy.
    I was going to write a detailed history of LO and me, but as I did, I realised it was feeling just like another kind of rumination. That said, I may as well post it now I’ve written it!

    • Hmmm…I don’t know. Drawing hearts on documents she is sending you seems like a bold move. My LO would not do that, but my LO is fairly shy as well.

      Does she initiate with you frequently? Is she the one seeking you out for conversation, does she initiate IMs, does she frequently draw hearts or smileys? I’m curious, because you stated earlier that you felt no interest from her but your history and her actions feel like there is some bond or connection.

      All I really get from my LO is the eye contact, laughing, giddiness. She does not initiate with me anything. I start most personal conversations. It frustrates me that she does not initiate so these days I just try not to venture into the personal talk but it’s hard because our chemistry feels so strong, at least to me it does.

      • Speedwagon, to offer an LO perspective…I have great chemistry with the limerent guy. But I have great chemistry with a lot of people including women and children.

        When it comes to the smiles, I can’t help smiling back at people (unless they’re super creepy). I liken it to being tickled. If someone tickles me, they will elicit a laugh but it’s involuntary. And I feel manipulated into laughing. Same with the flirty smiles. I smile back because I’m conditioned to. Even if I don’t want to, it happens. Maybe people pleasing. Maybe mirror neurons. I’m not sure what’s happening but I wouldn’t initiate the flirty smile and sometimes I feel angry that I’m smiling when I don’t really want to. It feels completely different to a genuine smile. I feel like it’s an ego-validating smile rather than a generous smile. There’s no give and take. I’m doing all the giving.

        • Hi Cordelia,
          Thanks for the perspective! That’s really interesting. I’ve always made it a top priority to smile at anyone I have an interaction with, even walking past them in the corridor at work – usually with a friendly greeting. I’m most focussed on doing this when someone helps me out, like a shop assistant. I’ve been in those roles on the other end of those transactions, and I know how much a friendly smile could lift my day. Almost invariably the other person will smile back, and I like to think I might have made their day just a tiny bit more bearable.
          I guess it’s a slightly different situation, but if they feel, as you say, they’re being forced to smile or react, perhaps I’m assuming wrong.

      • Thanks, good to know I’m not completely off-base! But yeah… that’s it in a nutshell. There are big discrepancies in how she relates to me, leading to huge uncertainty on my part.
        LO rarely initiates any non-work related conversation. The last time she did, it was after roughly a week of no non-work contact from me.
        In social situations she’s bubbly and outgoing and so funny, and has the most amazing ability to capture everyone’s attention (I’ve never met anyone like her in that regard) when she’s telling stories. With me and in work situations in general, she’s quite reserved and quiet. That could be a result of being a young woman in what is still quite a male-dominated technical field (I’m thrilled to say that I’ve seen that balance improve greatly in my time).
        Throw in the occasional highlighter heart and my brain doesn’t know which way is up.

        • “…my brain doesn’t know which way is up.”

          This is me as well. And even though I disclosed and got rebuffed, I still have doubts when we interact and it feels so warm and fun, and there are these moments of intense eye gazing. It’s just confusing to my limerent brain.

          But the fact remains, that there is no real relationship with this woman that I do have or should have so my focus needs to stay on SO and my interactions with LO need to stay limited and appropriate.

        • Nothing wrong with a friendly smile! But a friendly smile should be giving with no seeking reciprocation. That said, unless I’m in a foul mood (which is pretty rare!) I’ll always happily return a friendly smile. I don’t know why I can perceive the difference between friendly and flirtatious. But it’s there in the eyes. The craving for validation.

  21. @Speedwagon
    Yeah, it’s so frustrating – rationally that’s what I tell myself too, but limerent brain rejects rationality. Especially frustrating for me because my character (and career) are built on rationality.
    Another footnote: I gave LO the opportunity to move teams about eight months ago and she declined, saying there was a personality clash in the proposed team and she liked having me as a manager. That seemed like a good testimonial, but I wonder if it’s a case of her ensuring professional distance is maintained and protected.

  22. I like to ponder the nature of my LE a lot and one of the things about my attraction to LO that befuddles me is why after 3.5 years of working with her and her not even really even being a crush did I all of sudden fall deeply attracted to her? The surface answer is because I started to catch a vibe from her, but the deeper question is why did I start noticing a vibe. Was she giving something off that I finally picked up on or was she the same as always and did I just start noticing her all of a sudden because of other factors in my life and right timing. We never had an build up flirting or anything like that. I never actually interacted with her a ton before the LE. It was all very sudden, about 10 days of noticing a vibe, one personal text, and I was hooked, full LE. I’m so confused how my attraction to her exploded like that out of nowhere.

    I’ll probably never know or understand but I’m just not convinced it was all just me.

    • I think I said on one of the other posts that I wonder if she was ‘trying you on’ in her head. I do that with everyone I get a vibe from and even those I don’t get a vibe from if I like them. But just like a dress that doesn’t quiiiite fit, I might stand there trying to figure out if it’s worth buying or if I should just shelve it. In that moment, I’m pretty sure I’d be vibing. It’s just a very uncertain vibe….that I now know I need to hide better to avoid leading limerents on.

      And then there’s how I felt about my LO. My heart was all in while my head screamed ‘this isn’t for us!’ When I met him he was a total player commitment-phobe-type. I was magnetically drawn to him but constantly pushed him away while we were both single. When he was in a relationship, he stopped flirting with me and we settled into a friendship groove which worked well for me. I got the EA I needed without the vulnerability of being all in. In hindsight I can’t believe how screwed up the whole thing was.

      Not sure if either of those resonate with you…

      • Wow, that’s a great insight – it’s easy to imagine that LO knows exactly what they want, when they probably don’t have the same laser focus on their feelings as you do. If there’s real chemistry, there’s every chance that they’re uncertain or conflicted themselves as you pointed out… and then send out mixed messages. They could even be limerent themselves and be better at hiding it!
        What you said earlier about chemistry resonates too – I feel like there’s a special connection between me and LO, but I wonder if what’s special to me is just normal for her.

        • The other thing to think about is; maybe LO is just a nice person. Maybe they do see that sparkle in your eye when you see them. Maybe they see a blooming crush and don’t say anything.

          I know I let a lot of things go and I try to be the nicest person I can to most co-workers/acquaintances/friends. I try to keep the peace in most situations. I think that is what was with LO. Even if she thought I had a crush on her, she kept quiet and treated me no differently than before. She was just a very friendly and out spoken person. I find I don’t usually get drawn to extroverts for the most part. But she was very energetic and animated, and as a introvert (for the most part) I might have misread that as directed at me, not who she was in general.

    • Isn’t that the nature of limerence for some (most?) people? You can sail through life blissfully unaware of any limerent tendencies, but then the perfect storm blows up which suddenly tips you over the edge. In my case I’ve had a lot of upheaval (illness, death of loved ones) in my life recently, family life has become a lot more difficult, relationships have been strained, and importantly, middle age is tapping both me and my SO on the shoulder.

      I never knew of limerence until my current LE, but in retrospect, most of my romantic experiences throughout have had some element of limerence. What about you? Is this a completely new thing, or do you think you’re potentially prone to limerence?

      At the end of the day, it’s not really what our LO’s have done, but how we’ve processed and interpreted their actions. As Dr. L said, they’re real people with desires, flaws and agency of their own so they may have changed how they’ve interacted with us; but that’s only one (small) piece of the limerence puzzle. Those changes may also be hiding ulterior motives, but we can’t possibly know that for sure.

      @Cordelia – that’s nice to know. I don’t know if I have the self-possession to smile flirtatiously at someone I don’t already have a relationship with!

      • “What about you? Is this a completely new thing, or do you think you’re potentially prone to limerence?”

        I’m prone to LE also. This is my 3rd true LE in life, maybe 4th if I count a light one. First was my HS love interest who I dated briefly but had a strong friendship with. That lasted 3 years. 2nd was my college girlfriend who I was very limerent for, for 3 years after we broke up. The possible 4th was a girl who what also very attracted to me, we had a brief fling, but she lived in another country and logistics didn’t put us together and in the meantime I met my wife. There was a short period about 20 years ago that I thought a lot about her but it never felt really like a strong LE.

        Fast forward 19 years of marriage and this LE hits sudden and like a freight train. Never have felt as taken with someone as I do with this LO and never as intense.

        I think you are right, I was completely unaware, a bit complacent in life, and the right cocktail mix of circumstances happened to send me into an LE.

        • Right! Me too I guess, but I’ve experienced more of what Dr L calls proto-limerence – probably dozens of episodes throughout my life. I just found a post he wrote that seems to mirror your situation: “At the far end of this category would be the people who become limerent for friends they have known for some time, but were not initially limerent for. Often, this change can be triggered by seeing the friend in a new context, or even sensing that the friend is interested in them.”
          The whole post (https://livingwithlimerence.com/do-they-like-me-too/) resonates with me big time. I feel that my pattern was set very (!) early in my life when I had a crush on a much older girl, and I guess, with the impossibility of reciprocation, I wallowed and became hooked on the rumination.

        • Thank you for that blog post. That is exactly what happened this LE, just substitute friend for coworker.

          One unique aspect of this limerence is in my others I actually had a romantic relationship with them and all three were in love with me intensely at some point. With current LE, this is the first time the LO has no romantic interest back, or so she claims.

    • Hi Speedwagon,

      It is interesting what you’ve said. My story is this: I lived almost literally next to my LO for 4 years before I really “saw” him. He is a rugby player and also a PT so once he casually mentioned that to my SO and as I had started to do strength training, once I saw him at the gym and I asked him directly about it. I wonder if he thought I was coming on to him but soon after he inundated me with texts. The damn texts! He openly transgressed and I then just notice how hot, alluring and special he was! (although he isn’t too special, now I realise) During our workout sessions or when we were alone he would not say a thing, only by texts. So once I asked him directly and he sort of retrieved, he stopped the sexual texting altogether and left me very confused. I have now read that by confronting him I was removing the uncertainty aspect and perhaps this is why he stopped transgressing. But I know for sure it wasn’t all in my head, I think he was just getting his kicks out of getting admiration from “a lady like me” as he put it. I realise that when I am out and about in my garage he happens to walk his dogs, which I find very unusual. I never saw him as many times in the past 4 years than in the recent 4 months. That is a lot of dog walking! So I wonder deep down if he is just enjoying seeing my stupid silly face light up when I see him and maybe he enjoys just teasing me. I have started to look for a new PT but I need to think about a reason to leave him without disclosing that I am infatuated by him. So embarrassing.

      • That’s interesting after 4 years you all of a sudden fell for him. Was it simply the attention he started paying to you? The texting? Seeing him at gym? Did you reciprocate the texting with him?

        For me, I just started noticing a vibe from LO when we were together, and I made the leap in my caveman brain that she was attracted. But what crystalized my LE was one simple personal text she sent me on a Sunday after I had been catching this vibe all week and starting to notice her as well. I wrongly took that text to mean she might be pursuing me. She wasn’t, it was just one standalone neutral text on her part that coincided with my rising attraction to her. My mind read waaaay too much into it. I can vividly remember being so energized and euphoric that day thinking this woman wanted me and all of a sudden I wanted her so bad as well. Took me about 4 weeks to figure out that was not the case, to start to feel the distress and then to start to panic and figure out what the hell was going on with me.

        • Yes, him paying attention to me and sending me steamy texts took me down this spiral. Looking back I know it was highly inappropriate of him to have said those things when I had just genuinely asked him for professional trainer sessions but I participated joyfully, euphorically and then, when he stopped with the texts, the highs stopped and I encountered the lows.
          In your case, I wonder if you did read too much into it or if she was also kind of playing around and teasing you. I believe that a lot of the times there is some accountability on the LOs side. In my case it was very blatant and he led me on and disturbed my life in a wonderful yet problematic way; but sometimes it can be very subtle and still have the same effect.
          Another thing that I find interesting in both of our cases is that, when confronting our LOs, they both retreated. I remember mine said something like “I am not a great talker” and then after that conversation he moved on to a fully professional demeanour, the way it should have been from the very beginning.
          I also wonder and ask myself what the hell is going on with me. Life seems very bland in comparison to feel that euphoria I felt for a few months.
          I remember something I read from Dr. L: “most people are well behaved”. I just happened to have poked at the wrong bear and that got me into trouble.

        • Wow, I’m sorry you got caught up in the game with this guy. Sounds a bit like a predator who just wanted to get some kicks with you. What prompted him to start sending steamy texts? Were you already texting a bunch and it just ramped up or did it come completely out of the blue?

          The moment I got mildly affectionate with LO over texting she shut me right down. That effectively ended any relational texting between us. Thinking back on LOs initial vibes, I do think she was giving off something, but I think it was more in an attraction to a mentor or role model than anything romantic. I just misread it as romance to my own detriment.

          But she still has this way of looking at me, laughing with me, smiling and giggling to things I say that feels different from other woman I interact with. But she doesn’t have any action whatsoever that would suggest she is pursuing any kind of relationship with me. In all other ways she acts very aloof towards me.

          I’m working through it, learning to coexist with her is taking time, struggle, and patience. Ultimately, I just wish she would exit my life.

        • Hi Speedwagon,

          I have thought about that. Whether he just wanted to be flirting and being brave on texts but then I took away that control when I confronted him. It started almost right away after my first texts talking about me looking for a PT and then it went from there to openly sexual until I openly brought the topic and talked about it when we met in person. In a way I am glad I did as having those texts, or more the absence of them, was consuming me.
          In your case, I think that is a bit cruel that your SO is looking at you in a certain way and giggling knowing you developed some feelings. I remember doing that to some of my classmates at uni, specially the shy ones as it helped me to get certain favours, like extra support, books, or any other advantage. Of course I didn’t do that to the extroverted as they would openly reciprocate or reject. Looking back I just thought it was harmless and it was fun to have someone admiring me. It never occurred to me that I would cause any harm and perhaps I did.
          This is why I insist there is accountability on their side, I have been there.
          I have also had mentors and father figures and I would never have these type of behaviours, it would be extremely weird and if they had disclosed anything like that, I would have stopped all form of interactions. It doesn’t sound like your LO has done that for you.

        • That is so interesting to me how some men can be so forward like that. I am certainly not wired that way, though I am not sure my motives were any less devious when I was at the height of pursuing my LO. I was just playing a much longer game and whether I would had ever stopped had LO reciprocated, I’m not sure. But at the first hint of affectionate talk LO shut me down.

          To your thoughts about my LO and her eye contact, smiles, giggles and what not, I have pondered if any of this is malicious or a game on her part and I really don’t think it is. Honestly I think she is just naive. I think she has feelings of some kind that she does not entertain at all yet the feelings show in face to face interaction. For her people fit nicely in a box and two married people do not have feelings for anyone but their SO. She will never pursue me relationally because that is just wrong but if I interact with her I don’t think she can always hide her emotion. Or maybe that’s just the little bit of emotion she allows for herself. And it is very true, even after I disclosed, she never really backed off from me at the office. Even today, to my surprise, she has been quite warm with me.

          I said this before and I think I still believe it…I think I am the type of man she wishes her husband was, but without wishing me to be her husband.

        • Hi Speedwagon,

          I feel for you, it must be very difficult to see your LO every day and not be able to go NC for the foreseeable. Taking away that control for you must be very tough.

          “That is so interesting to me how some men can be so forward like that”
          With my salesperson hat on, I assume that he does it because it works. If it didn’t, then he would not be so daring. And that is another thing, one doesn’t sleep with customers. Mixing business and pleasure it’s bad for business!
          Like you said, I wish he would just exit my life. Or at least go back to the days, 5 months ago, when I didn’t even give him a second glance.

  23. I have found myself transfixed over the past couple of days by some of the emotional and thought-provoking posts. I have read them all and I am glad that I did not comment individually. That might have taken up all the twelve ‘recent post’ slots. There has been some wisdom and some food for thought for all of us, I think.

    I just read Adam’s, MJ’s and Sammy’s comments on “The Glimmer”. Sammy, I don’t always understand your posts but, goodness, I found this one very powerful. As with lots of emotions, I thought I was rather on my own regarding my anger and fear of rejection.

    Well, I have also been trying to wean myself off my dependence on LwL but today’s posts led me to re-read the above blog.

    If I think back, even recently, I feel humbled at being pushed in the right direction from time to time by kind people here. It is easily arguable that my limerence is not a situation to be proud of. I am glad that I did not send LO a message explaining my thoughts; the compulsion felt very strong.

    After six months of NC, I have recently received a WhatsApp message from LO apologising profusely for the lack of contact. He explained that he had been busy etc., and asked what I had been doing. I replied enthusiastically and positively. That response has been ignored, I think, so I also sent a copy by email just to be sure, explaining about the grey ticks thing… I deleted the WhatsApp chat.

    The pain of limerence can subside, although maybe this is a dopamine thing, and sometimes we are given opportunities. I have been allowed the chance to re-assess my pent up irritation, and be mindful of LO’s feelings. I will now try to park this relationship firmly on the shelf. I am determined to pull this off. How hard can it be to simply not initiate contact….?

    • @frederico.

      “Sammy, I don’t always understand your posts but, goodness, I found this one very powerful. ”

      That’s okay, buddy. I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Many of my older posts no longer make sense to me. I can’t re-read them without cringing, and I don’t recognise myself in the person who wrote them. My thinking was … unclear.

      If I want to read posts that are consistently worth reading, I read Marcia’s. 😉

    • @frederico.

      I should add that I absolutely think straight men and gay men can be friends under most circumstances.

      However, if the gay man is limerent for the straight man, then the infatuation will make the friendship painful for the gay man, because the gay man probably wants a degree of closeness that the straight man probably can’t give, and the reason the straight man can’t give the desired level of closeness is because deep down he doesn’t really feel the same need/desire for closeness. He’s happy overall with less closeness.

      And this emotional imbalance is true of course in relationships between men and women (when only one party is infatuated and the other isn’t) and in relationships between two women (when only one party is infatuated and the other isn’t).

      Basically, when one mixes friendship and romance, the outcome seems to be pain. Because, of course, one party is “in love” and one party is “not in love”. And the party who’s “in love” always wants more closeness than the party who’s “not in love”. It’s really sad if one happens to be the person who wants more, but it also just seems to be the way life is. We can’t always be close to the people we want to be close to. 🤔

      • I wouldn’t think that the risks of same sex friendships for homosexual individuals would be any different than opposite sex friendships for heterosexual individuals. But I do wonder would the risks double for bisexual individuals?

        As an aside my wife’s childhood friend is homosexual and we are friends. And I consider frederico my friend. Like you said I think that if there is no attraction on one party’s part the relationship can work.

        • @Adam.

          Your friendship with Frederico is heartwarming. 😛

          I was just trying to explain why some attachments seem to cause us so much pain and other attachments don’t cause us pain. 😉

      • Hi Sammy,

        Guy men and straight men can have healthy friendships. I can somehow affirm so because my SO have had guy friendships, and he was highly respected from guy men, since he treated them as equals, and he is the fatherly type. They would ask him for advise on business, share their problems, banter with them and share a cup of coffee together . My SO has no complexes, is an extrovert and is a down to earth person, very understanding open minded type of personality. I also had guy friends, treated them as anyone else, as a matter of fact I felt safe with them, as straight men are almost always trying to flirt with women and make us uncomfortable (if one is not interested in them.) One cannot put everyone in the same basket, some men behave very macho style , like toxic , and it’s not even pleasant to some women either. Western countries have finally accepted the fact that we are all part of the same universe and there’s no need for discrimination. We can get along very well as decent human beings sharing the same space.

        And we all lived happily ever after!

        Have a marvelous weekend. Hugs

  24. I am so pleased to have found this site. I had no idea that everything that I’ve been going through for the past 4 months had a name and that someone out there understood everything I’ve been going through. I read lots of articles and comments that it has helped to lift a veil on what this new person that came to my life 4 months ago, has turned my life upside down in negative but also in positive ways. And that is what I think will be my way out. I want to get rid of this LEs through starvation. About a month ago I really thought that through consummation would be the way to get better. I am so glad I didn’t do it though. I see my LO every week but this week was special because I read so much on this blog and I realise that I have been idealising this guy for the single reason that I find him extremely attractive. The most handsome person that has set eyes on me. I felt euphoria when he transgressed openly to hit on me. Then it was hot/cold and that started to break me. Every single thing he has done is pretty much text book, and that is the veil that was lifted. I am looking at the positives, I look better than ever, I have made positive changes to look after myself and I have so many activities and hobbies in my life, all because I was trying to make myself attractive to him and also because I needed to cope with not having him. So that is what I am taking from this experience. I do not want to go NC yet but I feel this week the intrusive thoughts have gone and that is, I think, my path to getting out of this very strange situation. I am married and I am catholic so I cannot confide in anybody, literally anybody. So having read this blog has changed my life already. Thanks so much.

    • Hi Silly Rabit,

      It’s hard when you are religious, married and you find yourself with feelings for another man. The experience is overwhelming, but you feel ashamed and afraid to talk to anyone. That’s how I felt when I realized that I had feelings for my LO2. I’m sorry that you don’t feel safe to talk to anyone about your LE. I was able to talk to my sister before finding LwL and I was able to eventually talk to my husband and my LO2 about it. Anyway, you are welcome to discuss your LE here. We have a great community of people who have been affected by limerence. You don’t have to struggle through this alone.

      You mentioned consummation. I am concerned that if you took that path it would go against your core beliefs. It’s understandable that you thought about it, but I hope you don’t do it. It sounds like you don’t want to do it either. Please consider the consequences. There are other ways to relieve your limerent symptoms. I was so desperate to get rid of my intrusive thoughts about LO2 that I used transference which gave me an LO3. I haven’t had intrusive thoughts about LO3, thank goodness.

      Anyway, purposeful living seems to be the best way out of an LE. Dr L encourages us to go no contact. My LE was at its worst during no contact so I continue to have contact with both my LO2 and LO3. I think you have to decide what is best for you.

      I’m glad you found us. Best wishes!
      -Lovisa

  25. Hi Lovisa,
    Overwhelming is the right word. There was some days where I thought I would initiate the consummation as my libido was up the roof. He is my neighbour (ouch) so I could not think of anything else. In a way, him moving on to another woman (probably) and decreasing the texts helped me not to sink into a black hole even deeper. You are absolutely right about consummation and I am so glad I didnt do it. I wouldve had a proper nervous breakdown if he had gone cold on me after sex. But I remember my brain playing tricks on me and I found myself thinking: “you only live once, if you sleep with him once nobody is going to know and you will have a nice memory”. As you can imagine, I cannot share this with my catholic bunch nor my SO. I am going to the gym pretty much every day to exhaust this energy I have so I am looking better than ever and getting a lot more male attention. I am just praying I don’t get any more temptations whilst at the same time getting to know this LO more (only once a week) and realise he is not even a great guy.

    • Hey Silly Rabbit,
      Just wanted to say I am a Catholic also and have shared my limerence story with my Pastor. While I see our LEs are completely different, (LO and I are single) he has been someone I can trust. Just because you feel like you don’t have anyone to talk to about this experience doesn’t mean the church won’t be forgiving in your situation. Granted having an outright affair is of course not something that will be endorsed, but perhaps there are other Priests or support groups within your diocese that you could reach out to. Hopefully with a level of confidentiality that you can trust.

      Just giving you something to consider when you need a real human interaction, beyond what this site can offer. Of course digest everything here that you can, as it covers a lot of territory..

      • Hi MJ,

        I think deep inside I know that if I share with my priest, he will tell me what I already know. That I need to stop seeing my LO altogether and that the relationship altogether is wrong. My LO is also married and what he has told me and suggested to do together is openly immoral yet I was fully consensual in the exchanges we had. I think my next step is to try and go NC as from what I read in the blog from Dr. L I cannot just become friends with him. A line has been crossed.
        I suppose I want to just wait til all this develops and I am able to understand how to get the positive out of this and protect myself to not fall again in a similar situation and finally feel properly repentant.

    • Hi Silly Rabbit, I am sorry that I didn’t see your response sooner. You need a friend right now. I’m glad MJ responded to you. My heart goes out to you. Oh my, it would be so hard if my LO was a neighbor. So so hard.

      Wow, you are in a tough spot. It’s going to be rough for a while, but I believe in you. I’m serious, it is obvious that you want to do the right thing. I know you have conflicting feelings. Let’s address them.

      You found yourself with feelings for your neighbor even though you are both married. Let’s be honest, you weren’t looking for this problem. It just happened. We need to give you grace. Shame makes it worse. Shame makes us want to hide. Grace gives us hope and acceptance. You deserve grace. (I hope I’m using that word in a way that makes sense to your Catholic background).

      It sounds like you crossed a line with your neighbor. You may have mentioned what happened on a different post, please forgive that I don’t know what line you crossed. Whatever it was, you recognized that it was a mistake and you are trying to do better. That is honorable and good. I’m proud of you for redirecting yourself.

      Let’s talk about that desire/impulse to consummate. Yikes. That is a tough one. Thank you for being honest and open about it. I’m so glad you didn’t act on it. Good job! I don’t know if we’re in the clear yet. Do you have a plan for keeping yourself safe? Sorry, “safe” isn’t the best word, but I can’t think of a better word. When I was in deep limerence, I wrote a list of personal boundaries. It included stuff like, “I am willing to give/receive one greeting hug and one goodbye hug and reasonable physical contact like helping each other climb a boulder (this makes sense for my lifestyle).” That is the extent of physical contact that I am willing to have with men who are not my husband. Since I wrote that list, I realize that I should add, “sit next to each other.” Because sometimes you have to sit next to people and it is socially acceptable to do that. Those are just examples. I have a written list of my boundaries. I also talked to my husband about it and he agrees with my list. You can make a list or not, but I want you to answer this question for yourself…

      What boundary am I absolutely unwilling to cross?

      I want you to be ready. I know I sound like a pest. You can roll your eyes at me. I want to be a friend to you because you need one right now. I remember how alone I felt at first. I was full of shame which just made me feel more alone. You are not alone. You are strong. You are a good woman who wants to do the right thing.

      It’s good that you recognize the benefits of limerence. You are taking better care of yourself and looking good. That is awesome! I understand that LO triggered this behavior, but it was inside of you all along. You are the person who works hard at the gym. You deserve credit for what you’re doing. Also, even if your limerence fades, you can continue working out. You like how it affects you so you can do it for yourself.

      Keep posting! The LwL community is on your side. We (I’m pretty sure I can speak for everyone) want you to succeed. We want to help you minimize the uncomfortable symptoms and we want to support and encourage you to do the right thing. And if you make a mistake, it’s okay, we will be here for you.

      Best wishes!

      • Hi Silly Rabbit,

        Sorry you got “ infected” with the bug of limerence. Everyone here got the same “infection”, that’s why we’re all here. But as you already understood, the only way out of it is through No contact and trying to live a purposeful life. The process of No Contact is painful and difficult, it’s like waning from a drug addiction. Be prepared, a lot of things, different emotions and mood changes, etc. will show up at various times, but it’s better than feeling the shame, pain, guilt , and rejection many feel during limerence. At this time one should review ones lives and see what’s missing in it, what do you want to do from now on, etc. Limerence is like a call to review your life and its meaning to you. Do not be afraid of backsliding during NC, it does occur , it may take quite a while, hang in there, take courage as it all will be alright at the end, I hope. In my case, it’s taken already 17 months and still going. I didn’t reveal to anyone. Going through it by myself, God and LwL community. Still holding on and praying that by some kind of miracle it will go away someday, somehow …

        • Hi Nisor,
          I remember the times when this guy was like any other guy and my life was a combination of stress from a demanding job and normal moments of happiness from family life and friends. I worried also about aging and about illness so that is why I started my health journey. To Lovisa’s point I know I have it in me and that gives me some comfort. I started this process on my own but then I contacted this guy and everything changed in a matter of days.
          It is a bit comforting to know that going full NC is the way to fix things but, I suppose like smokers, we just want to try a little bit of what makes us unwell in order to give a bit of colour to our grey lives.
          Have you tried to go NC, Nisor? How has been your experience? You mentioned it is still going after 17 months.

      • Hi Lovisa,
        “Let’s be honest, you weren’t looking for this problem. It just happened.”
        I thought about this too. When I approached him originally about PT sessions, I just saw him as a that, a PT guy and I even told my SO I was going to start texting him. He didn’t care much.
        First few interactions he told me he’d seen me over the years and that he had a thing for me. That’s when I should’ve stopped and I not only I didn’t but I asked him more information about it, as I was genuinely curious about it. What did he see on me? Why!? In the culture I live in (which is not where I am originally from) it is very uncommon for men to be direct so this was a very unusual situation.
        He asked me about my boundaries and I was clear about what I would not do and he moaned about it but never pushed me in any way. Again, all this via texts.
        I like your idea about me having clear boundaries around him. Last week we spent around 2.5 hrs together (on a session that should’ve been 1 hour) as we went for lunch and we had a really nice time chatting. I am starting to think that maybe now that we have removed all sexual conversation, we can perhaps be normal friends. We have a lot of things in common, including our partners not caring or realising we are 2.5 hours out of the house.
        I feel obviously on a high after spending quality time with him so I will have to re evaluate my choices once I am in a low again. In any case, I am keeping myself very busy and I think I would be very sad if he was completely out of my life. Perhaps these periodical interactions are a good mix as I now have a clearer perspective of the effects of limerence and maybe I can just downgrade this to a crush?

        • Hi Silly Rabbit, I imagine those 2.5 hours left you high on your limerence. Wow, that sounds nice. I guess your SO thought you were at physical therapy and LO’s SO thought he was working. I can see why they weren’t concerned. It sounds like you want to keep him around for the benefits of limerence and you want to use boundaries to protect your marriages. This is how I approached my limerence, but I must warn that you are playing with fire.

          I want to address a few things.

          1. It sounds like he intentionally persued you. I think he might have different goals than you. I don’t trust him. Be careful!

          2. He will test your boundaries. What if he tests your boundaries when you feel weak? Can you resist?

          3. If you feel comfortable sharing, what line did you cross with him?

          4. Let’s talk about what really matters. How is your marriage? Can you strengthen it? Can you use all that limerent energy to flirt with your husband? Several of the LwL commentators chose to strengthen their marriage when they discovered limerence. That’s what I did. I used all that sexual energy on my SO. It got a little intense when I was initiating physical intimacy every day, but he was good about it. It brought us closer together.

          Best wishes!

        • Hi Lovisa,
          Oh dear, you are so so right! Our SOs trust us, that is the more likely answer.
          Due to my job and personality traits I focus on results so this: “It sounds like you want to keep him around for the benefits of limerence and you want to use boundaries to protect your marriages” is so spot on!! Thinking about it, I want to use the energy, self-confidence and highs that this relationship is giving me for personal improvement, whilst at the same time not openly transgressing and not changing anything in my existing relationship with my SO.
          On your points:
          1. You are right. I read about Bad LOs and he fits the definition. He has complained about his SO not understanding him and being on the rocks. Such a cliché.
          2. I probably would not be able to resist, no. But then we are now just acting normal and there is no more texts except to organise our sessions.
          3. We sexted every week for about a month and a half. Shared pics and we video called. All except we have never touched each other, except the odd hug and goodbye kiss on the cheek.
          4. Yes, this is exactly what I have been doing otherwise I would have gone insane. My SO has not complained and he hasn’t really asked where all this new libido, behaviour, new clothes, new make up is coming from. He is kind of a workaholic so that is his primary focus. When my LO stopped the sexting shortly after I confronted him, I felt really sad and I opened to my SO to tell him I was feeling very alone. That he didnt even noticed me as a woman etc etc. Had a good cry and all but he couldnt really understand why I felt lonely when we spend a lot of time together (we work from home two days a week and spend together all weekend) I do not have the courage to be fully open about the whole infatuation with the neighbour, also it could cause a heck of a lot of problems! Again my pragmatic brain tries to get the benefits of the situation whilst removing the risk and not hurting anybody.

        • Hi Silly Rabbit

          Yes, I’m in no contact . It’s soul wrenching. One really has to want it to end it, and fast, to be willing to bear with the hurt. My LO was my SO for three years when I was young. We had a beautiful relationship. I broke up with him (though I loved him with all my heart)and never saw or heard from him again. After 49 years I had a dream with him and a mad craving for him awakened inside my mind, I thought I was going crazy. It was euphoric at the beginning, but I couldn’t
          control my thoughts day and night. It’s like this limerence monster has taken over my brain hostage in its entirety. Now I was desperate to know about him. I did some research and found his telephone number. I held unto it for five months , was not sure what’ll find if I called . Would he remember me, would he hang up on me, or reject me? So many questions! I was afraid I’ll open a can of worms 🪱 ,would I be able to bear a rejection? What about my SO, how can I hurt him like this? My lizard brain took the chance and I finally called. It was a wonderful connection , he remembered me, we both exchange stories of our lives as if it was yesterday we talked last. I was too emotional and told him so, so was he. He has an SO and so do I. His SO seems to have control over his phone, ( and I think over him) for there’s an answering recording with her voice in it. Maybe they share a phone? He told me he has one of those old phones yet, so I cannot text him. I don’t know whether to believe him or not.
          He offered to give me his address.
          He said it was ok to call again . I did, but there’s this recording with his wife’s voice, so I’d leave a message with good wishes and hang up. I tried one more time and he answered the phone this time. At the end I was feeling jittery for taking this roll, it’s not like me. I have never chased no one in my life. I can never be his friend. We are in different continents and we are old aged.
          So it’s kind of ridiculous!!! The first ten months were very, very hard because I have good memories of him imprinted in my mind and he was kind with me, always a gentleman, and I know he loved me dearly. I have to force my mind to not relieve those memories, but to no avail. It’s like a recording day and night. I’m stuck in time! Thus, I decided to stop calling all together. It’s been exactly one year this month I had the last phone call with him. Though it was very pleasant to talk to LO , I decided, it’s not healthy for me or my relationship with SO , to keep on feeding this monster but to end it by starvation. I feel tempted to call almost every day but I don’t want to fall for it . I have told LO he cannot call me because SO is always near by. I I think he has the same problem with his SO. The story is long and complicated.

          One piece of advice is that the more you get involved with LO the hardest it is to untangle . I realize you’re enjoying the flirtation now, even with boundaries, that’s a lot of fun and happiness, and I don’t want to spoil it for you. But like Lovisa said: you’re playing with 🔥fire! Think of the consequences if your SO finds out , or his? Are you ready to deal with it? What’s your plan in your life for the future? Only
          you can answer those questions sincerely.

          Best wishes.

        • Hi Nisor and Silly Rabbit, I think the three of us have something in common, our LOs make us feel young and alive. It’s intoxicating right? We want those good feelings, but we don’t want to hurt anyone.

          I think Nisor and I are in a safe place because we don’t see our LOs, but I’m very concerned for Silly Rabbit. She has weekly alone time with her LO and she sees him in her neighborhood. Yikes! How can we support you, Silly Rabbit? I don’t want you to ruin your life over this man. My instincts tell me that this isn’t his first time and that he knows what he is doing.

          Here are my thoughts. First, let’s talk about the physical therapy. You can get a new PT. Just say you want to try some other techniques. Or, you could try my go-to for PT. I absolutely love this guy’s videos! I’m pretty sure he isn’t Catholic, so I doubt he is your LO. Wouldn’t it be crazy if he was? Anyway, I get on YouTube and type in “tone and tighten” along with whatever I’m struggling with. Since my 50-mile race, I’ve had low back pain and IT band pain so I’m using his videos for those two ailments. This guy works miracles! Here is one of his videos

          https://youtu.be/_wTx2YP8gtg?si=JiftBG76W4tqcfnE

          Next, we have to talk about your weakness for your LO. You are in a vulnerable place. It’s so good that you recognize that if he pushed your boundaries, you might not be able to resist. That self-awareness is great! But…well… we have to strengthen you so that you are ready to resist. Can you think about the consequences? I know our Limerent brains tell us that we can keep secrets. It’s not true. If you mess up, you will know. Even if you can keep it from your family, the guilt will be awful. Also, your husband works hard for you. He is taking care of you. He doesn’t deserve a disloyal partner, right?

          We really have to figure out how to strengthen you because I don’t trust your LO. Any ideas?

          I’m glad that you put a stop to the sexting. I agree that sexting is crossing a boundary. I noticed that you are talking to Speedwagon on another thread. He is a great source for you. He has good values. He helped me see why flirting with my LO was a bad idea and I stopped doing it. I think he can help you, too.

          You got this!

        • Silly Rabbit,

          Check these blogs/ videos, they may help you understand your situation better:

          Keeping Secrets/LwL October 28, 2023

          Coping with betrayal/ LwL

          Stay strong 💪🏽
          .

      • Hi Lovisa,
        You are right again. I love how his attention makes me feel and I most of all, I never imagined I would be able to feel like this again. At my age, and after getting married and having children I had already accepted to wilt and just follow through the motions.
        I saw the video of your PT you copied and I must say my LO is irresistibly handsome! Imagine: a professional rugby player, a bit younger than me but not too much; very neatly presented and he looks at me straight in the eyes without breaking contact every time he talks to me. The PT sessions entail strength training so it is not physical therapy, we do workout together and we lift weights essentially.
        …so yes, I realise it is not sustainable to become friends or to maintain this situation for too long. Either him or me will start some trouble 🙁
        One of the reasons I started to hit lows is the realisation, as you say Lovisa, that he has some experience doing this. I can perfectly see that he is the flirting type of guy. He is probably even cheating his wife already with someone else. But then I rationalised it by thinking: why am I jealous, I am not even his wife?
        After starting to read this blog, some improvements have happened with my LEs: I almost stopped ruminating about the sexting and past interactions, I stopped looking into his social media and just trying to find reasons to text him. I also realised that he would be an unsuitable match, even if we were single. He is not too smart, nor ambitious. He doesn’t do much outside of his jobs and I am nothing like that!
        The part that I need to work on is stopping the daydreaming about our future chats and also obviously going NC. I am pretty certain I will be promoted in January and that will mean travelling a couple of times a month, that gives me the perfect excuse to stop the PT sessions and perhaps just buy from him the training plan which I am now good enough to do on my own.
        That is my plan out of this sticky situation. Now, my question, as you and Nisor are NC with your LOs. Has that removed your limerence? Are you cured and if not, what needs to happen after NC?

        • Hi S.Rabbit, I think a lot of triggers is pure biology. Falling for a PT is textbook. He is probably pumping out pheremones when he sweats which unconsciously to you are compatible with your DNA/hormones.
          I don’t know your age but as we know approaching menopause the hormones change, and often testosterone is relatively higher than the other hormones for a time. This can be triggered by the said compatible pheromones and other reasons and your libido rockets for new exciting moments with hot fit strong males.
          It’s pure biology saying your last chance to procreate. Christa dSouza wrote about it and called it the 49 club as all her friends went a bit sex mad for hot/younger males around that age. One of her friends nearly ended her marriage to run off with her PT but eventually woke up to the reality of what she was heading for. It was a complete revelation reading her article. Its worth a read. I can try to search for it.
          I guess you need to step back and use current LO time and energy elsewhere . Maybe doing exercise with a female friend who could benefit from your knowledge or join a running club etc. Then you get to meet new people and still get a buzz but a healthier buzz than with LO.

        • “Christa dSouza wrote about it and called it the 49 club as all her friends went a bit sex mad for hot/younger males around that age.”

          And I was complaining about puberty at the time. I’ll take it over mid life any day. At least with puberty I just locked myself in my room. Not ruin relationships because my instincts take over my rational.

        • HI IMHO,
          I have found that article and you are right, it has been a combination of me being in my early 40s and then getting acquainted with my LO in a context for the perfect storm. My previous PT was a woman so I certainly didn’t have this issue so that might be the safest option moving forward. From reading about it in the article, I like the lack of originality in falling for a PT, to me it means it is not some sort of signal from the sky, it is textbook, as you say lol.

          Adam, as you say, in puberty it was a lot easier. Being a young catholic, any thoughts of that sort I repressed as it was sinful. I was uncomfortable with my body and I just refused to think of myself as a sexual being. Now in my 40s, I couldnt be more different than that young woman.

          Thanks for sharing IMHO, this helps to put some light on what I am experiencing, from a different angle and it is a relief to know other women are experiencing this out there. Just perhaps nobody shares this in my circle of friends.

        • Hi Silly Rabbit,

          Congratulations on your upcoming promotion! I hope it works out well for you.

          I am not NC with either of my recent LOs. I talk to LO3 every day and LO2 a few times per month. When I did NC, my symptoms were unbearable so I don’t do NC anymore. I don’t see LO3 in person, I just see pictures almost every day. But I think there is a difference between my LOs and yours. My LOs are not interested in hurting my family or theirs. They don’t push my boundaries like your LO. Your LO reminds me of my LO1. He tried to persuade me to leave my husband for him. Going NC from LO1 was difficult. The feelings faded over time, but they came rushing back every time I was reminded of LO1. I didn’t get over him until I found out that he had done the same things to other women that he did to me. I was so angry! One of those women actually left her husband, but LO1 didn’t leave his wife. I don’t think LO1’s wife realizes how despicable his behavior is. He is incredibly charming and manipulative. He convinced me that he was my soulmate. Now I just cringe at the thought of soulmates. I think your LO is a narcissistic LO like my LO1. I’m really sorry you got caught up in that. Of course he is irresistible with his handsome, rugby body. I’m not surprised that you struggle to hold to your values, but please be strong! I’m so sorry, but I think your LO is using you and I don’t think he cares about the consequences. I think he relies on your shame so that you will keep it a secret. He doesn’t want to get caught. I would love for you to talk to your priest. I don’t like that you are carrying this burden alone.

          NC is where I disagree with Dr L. I treat my LE more like a fear than an addiction. I approach my LE as something to conquer not something to run from. I’m probably wrong and I wouldn’t recommend my method to anyone else because I recognize that the symptoms are addiction-like. But in general, I just don’t let things get in the way of my goals. For example, I have a fear of heights, so I do exposure therapy to help me get over it. I’ve made a lot of progress. I can run on trails that were too intense for me before I started tackling my fear of heights. It’s just an example. I don’t think exposure therapy is a good way for you to approach your LE. I think you need to get away from that man.

          Best wishes!

        • Hi S.Rabbit. same for me in everything you just wrote. I also cannot say to my circle of friends “hey have you seen this article? Let’s discuss” but you are certainly not alone. I also am trying to rationalise myself away from the “star-crossed lovers” storyline.

          Hi Adam, I now have sympathy for what teenage boys must go through. And watch yourself around women of this age- don’t incite any glimmer or you could become an LO !
          Ha ha.

        • Hi, could you tell me where I can find the article? Just found stuff about some book of hers.
          I‘m interested because I think hormonal changes as perimenopause are definitely part of my limerence game.

        • Hi Mila, or Blunt Mila as I affectionately call you……
          I am a bit reticent sharing the link on the forum ( not with you ) as I feel it’s just for women. So rather than a direct link
          can you Google her name and the word toyboy . Let me know what you think once you read it …..I’m sure her book could be quite good too, I’m not ready to buy a menopause book just yet !!!

        • Hi Lovisa,

          “NC is where I disagree with Dr.L. I treat my LE more like a fear than an addiction.”

          You also mention you ‘approach it as something to conquer not something to run from.’ I agree here.

          I believe it depends on the circumstances and your LO. My LO was a good/loving LO.

          For me NC is the only solution to
          smother the ‘monster’, it’s disciplining your brain to think differently. In my case, I smothered it once, it took
          about three years then, but it came back 49 years later! Something wasn’t done right! I believe it was because there was not a closing conversation. I just fled the scene of “the crime”… left a wound open.
          It now feels more like martyrdom!!!

          Have a great day.

        • IMHO, thanks, I found and read it! While I‘m not really on par with the scenario of „years of cooking and caring for husband, and now it‘s my time“ (which century are we living in? My SO cooks far better than me etc)
          I agree with the hormone-induced feeling of urgency concerning sex.
          I don’t think consciously of last chances (actually it‘s news for me that it might happen that the libido just crashes for ever after menopause?? Horror) but I feel this urgency sometimes, according to cycle of course, and it doesn’t help limerence-problems one bit.
          Suddenly LO is so desirable while when „sober“ I can see where he might not be attractive.

          But I‘m not drawn to any well-built young man. My physiotherapist is quite a sight and we are on a very friendly basis, and I enjoy some looks at his physique, but would never really want to start anything or would get obsessed about that. I still need something more in a LO that isn’t connected to any physical attraction.

          Also I‘m a bit confused, she writes that testosterone without progesterone and oestrogen is causing this situation, but I thought Perimenopause starts with Progesterone going first which causes a temporary oestrogen dominance etc.When both hormones are gone and testosterone is left, that’s already menopause, no?
          Don’t answer, I could google it:)
          Anyway, I think hormones are part of the situation but surely not all. They just don’t help…

        • Hi Lovisa,

          Yes, my LO is very charming and he knows I find him very attractive so that annoys me. He also knows that I have all intention to keep our interactions a secret so in a way, I was very confused when he stopped all sexy messaging. It bothers me that it was him who stopped it and not me with my willpower and boundaries.
          When he stopped it made me insecure too: maybe he realised I’m not pretty, maybe he realised I’m too old. This was the dark side of my LEs.
          I don’t think I can go NC until January, I do not have the willpower, but speaking to my priest sounds feasible as I am starting to feel like I need to tell this secret to someone in real life. Also, I thought I was doing better: I see him on the planned appointment and then my week goes as normal as possible, but then I saw him twice more this week when he is walking his dogs and I texted him a question based on what he told me whilst on the street. Eugh, a set back! I have a very strict routine so I am wondering if he is going out on purpose to see me? He can see my house from his house so I am thinking, when I go NC I will still see him when I go out to my car. Hence, the controlled exposure sounds like a good approach.

          Mila,
          I always thought that if I was going to fall for someone, it would be someone intellectually stimulant or someone high in the corporate ladder with a great sense of humour. My LO is nothing like that so at least I can identify that my attraction to him is purely biological. And on that basis I have found myself entertaining pretty bland conversations because it allows me to spend time with him and look at his beautiful eyes.

        • Hi Mila, yes some of the article is a bit last century. Ha ha. I don’t fit that old fashioned wifey type at all either. It just helped me reflect on why am I going a bit off the rails. I suddenly want to be desired and desirable since glimmer with LO ( this is my only LE). I’ve never yearned for attractive men – appreciate their physique as you say but not desiring them like some of my friends openly would – eww! My LO is more than just attractive in his looks though, it’s a long list of lovely traits. Sigh! Hormones are complex – I don’t know the answers. Just know they play a role and are difficult to manage from puberty onwards. sigh again.

        • While my LO has been very flirty over the past several months, he’s always kept to boundaries, always been a gentleman. No sexting or improper suggestions. That’s how I know he cares. Your LO acts like he wants a notch on his bedpost–not worth the trouble! I feel sympathy for you especially because he’s a neighbor and you can’t just, say, go to a different gym and stop seeing him around. But definitely no more long talks alone. 😛

        • Hello everybody,

          Good news, I have spoken to someone about the LO as I just felt I couldn’t keep it to myself any longer. I have also booked sessions again with my therapist. I confided in a friend that has gone through this and in fact, she ended up divorcing her husband. She does not regret her decision but she mentioned, as some of you have suggested, that the issue is not really the LO, that is just a symptom of my relationship.
          Speaking to someone has been such a relief, I was able to sleep well which I hadn’t for a long time! I am seeing my LO in a different light and now I just hope I won’t meet him on the street as I go out of the house. It was the exact opposite only a few weeks ago. I think I am in a detox process and I’m feeling a lot more calmer now. Euphoria was an exciting feeling but the dark side of that was not very pleasant for me or my soul. Final stage is full NC!

  26. I remember Miss Lovisa pointing out (when I first arrived here) about instincts. Instincts that are what we having in common with all species on Earth no matter how much we advance and grow. Instincts that God/evolution gave us for a reason.

    And in my case how much those instincts as a man drove me in my limerence. Throw in, as my dear wife calls it, my damned rescue complex, and that’s a recipe for limerence. “You can’t save every woman from their problems” “You can’t make up for every bad man.” All my previous female co-workers up to that point had stable homes. A husband/father that was there for them and watching over them. She didn’t. In fact he was still f*&^%ing around in her life even after divorce. So you have this woman in distress with two daughters with no father. Miss Lovisa said it was provide, protect and preside that took over.

    We like to think we are above our base instincts because we can go to the moon, communicate across the planet and cure numerous diseases and increase the life span of humanity with each generation. But we forget God/evolution gave us those instincts for a reason, and we are subject to them.

    • Beautifully said, Adam! Your SO is right that you can’t save everyone. You’ll make yourself crazy trying. Just use those god-given skills on Momma and the boys. Maybe you can reconnect with your family of origin and use your talents to improve their lives. Maybe you could do some volunteer work?

      I think you would be a great CASA. CASAs are court appointed special advocates for abused and neglected children. It’s like being an unpaid social worker for one child. I loved being a CASA. There aren’t many men who do it, but there is a need. Most kids who need a CASA don’t have a solid male role model in their life. They usually have some decent female adults, but no males. Kids need to see functional adults of both genders. They need role models. I think you and Momma would be great CASAs.