One of the commonest situations where limerence becomes a destructive force in life is when it happens within the confines of a marriage. Unsurprisingly, I’ve written about this scenario many times in the past, but it is still the commonest problem raised in my email inbox by some margin.
Sometimes the issues are simple. Serial cheaters, abusive, dismissive, or secretive limerents will carry on in their selfish ways and the beleaguered spouse just has to decide how much more they are willing to tolerate before they free themselves. Sometimes the issues are more nuanced, and the spouse feels that their limerent partner has undergone a period of temporary madness and may be reachable if and when it passes. I’m not going to cover those problems today. Instead, I want to focus on the best case scenario (which is nevertheless still challenging): a limerent who wants to stop the limerence and repair the damage they have caused.
Given my own experience, I have tended to favour the limerent perspective on this issue. A principal goal of the blog has been trying to constructively help married limerents make sense of what is happening to them, how to take back control of their mental state, and how to make better, more purposeful decisions about the future.
A guiding philosophy for succeeding in this aim is that limerence in a marriage is a problem that must be jointly solved – at least in those cases where the limerent has not been able to manage it themselves and so has chosen to disclose and bring their spouse into the decision-making process. I conceptualise this as a decisive mental reframing from “How do I choose?” to “Us against the problem.”
I am aware, though, that this is still a bit navel-gazing, and centred on the concerns and problems of the limerent. It’s a lot more constructive than them brooding alone and becoming more distant and distracted, but it is also focused on solving the limerent’s problems. Clearly any lasting and meaningful resolution to the damage caused by limerence in the marriage also needs to solve the problems of the spouse.
Head hopping
To achieve this goal, limerent and spouse need to understand each other. That requires mutual respect, honest communication, and emotional forbearance. It is hard to really hear someone else when you are in emotional turmoil and existential discomfort. It also requires a lot of trust at a time when trust has been shaken.
These difficulties are exacerbated by the fact that limerence is an altered state of mind based on seeking reward with demented intensity – not exactly the perfect conditions for empathy. Even if the limerent has intellectually resolved to honour their vows and recommit to their spouse, it is hard to not make themselves the centre of a romantic drama, because the symptoms of limerence are so extraordinary and domestic life seems plain by comparison.
There are other disparities. The limerent has usually been thinking about the situation for an extended period – and limerents can really think about their LO – by the time their spouse is appraised of the problem. The spouse will then be playing an unpleasant game of panicked catch-up in the period after disclosure. It’s unreasonable to assume they will be able to think rationally or calmly.
All this means that mentally putting yourself into your spouse’s position will be really difficult and take concerted effort and patience.
Marriage work
All marriages need work. It’s sort of a truism that limerence is unlikely to ensnare you if you are blissfully content in marriage and life, but of course that’s a ridiculous standard to expect. Mostly, the stories I hear about the prior state of a marriage before limerence strikes are something along the lines of:
I was mostly happy, but also a bit stressed, and things were OK, but there were a few problems that we kind of ignored because they were unpleasant to contemplate, and anyway we were too busy to sit down for a Deep and Meaningful conversation that probably would end in an argument. I figured I was overreacting anyway and that it’d probably work out, and then I accidentally fell in love with my boss.
Benign neglect of romance is a normal and predictable consequence of marriage. When a marriage is rocked by limerence it is inevitable that imperfections and faults will be found for the looking. Usually, though, these problems are only retrospectively identified. The marriage – and the conduct of both partners – are scrutinised after the emotional dislocation of limerence has occurred. This leads to a lot of editorialising and the maddening phenomenon of rewriting history.
One of the big dangers in trying to mutually resolve the limerence problem is that the spouse is desperately trying to regain some control over the situation and their lives, and so opens themselves up to the possibility that by changing their behaviour – by becoming a better partner – they can fix the problem. Limerents are motivated to go along with this narrative because it salves their conscience about their own conduct. It’s a trap. It’s deferring a true reckoning into the future to try and gain some short-term relief.
It will take work to recover and improve a marriage after limerence, but that work has to be based on a foundation of honesty. You won’t get there unless the spouse is also able to list their disappointments, resentments, broken dreams and thwarted desires too. That’s what “partner” means.
Call for feedback
This rambling catalogue of the problems of how to deal with limerence in a marriage does have a point. I’m pretty immersed in the limerent perspective on how to recover and improve a marriage after limerence, but biased by my personal experience about what the most pressing problems and anxieties are for the spouse. I have a one-sided understanding of what needs to be done to repair the damage
I’ve learned over time that the best way to understand things beyond my own perspective, is to ask for help. My struggle in trying to head-hop into the mind of a spouse can be overcome by listening instead of imagining.
So, for any readers who have been through this pain from the spouse’s perspective, I would really value your perspective on what it was like to be put into that position by a limerent partner. I’m hoping that it is possible to scale the process of mutual understanding from the specifics of individual marriages to some general principles that can help the whole community. To both reassure spouses that there are ways for getting through it, and to help limerents understand that it is not all about them.
If you’d like to help, please either comment below or message me direct (in confidence) through the contact form. I’d appreciate all the feedback I can get.
Thank you for the opportunity to think about this from the non-limerent partner’s perspective.
I wonder if it will surprise others to hear that even two and half years on the experience I went through at the time of my SO’s LE is my first thought on waking most days. It was the singularly most distressing and disturbing episode of my entire life.
The initial shock, on finding out, lasted a few days. I couldn’t eat, sleep or think, I suppose numbness covers it.
I remember wanting to be curled up on the ground, in a room, on my own.
The pain seemed almost physical.
After that, I felt anger, I wanted to shout at, shame and ridicule my SO and to shake him violently…fortunately I drew the line at shouting.
Once the anger had subsided a little I began to feel some compassion for my SO and the pain and loss he was clearly experiencing. I wanted to understand about what I had contributed to the situation. Things got really bad then for me, I began to experience rather odd physical manifestations of the emotional pain with severe shaking, weakness in my limbs and a feeling that my body had become transparent and that people could see through me to the pain inside me.
I began to blame myself for what had happened, if only I could have been cleverer, thinner, tidier, more interesting, funnier…you name it, I didn’t have it.
Gradually these feelings have faded with support from a couple of good close friends, my SO, LWL members and a little professional therapy.
I believe I have been changed significantly by the experience, less confident and that it has aged me.
I have worked very hard to learn about limerence and to understand a little of it from this site and other sources. I still cannot get how it is possible for a L to believe themselves to be so deeply in love with their LO and yet still say it had nothing to do with their feelings for and about their long term partner. Maybe if I were L myself I would understand this better.
I’m not sure I can say much more than this as I don’t feel pulling out further the threads of these many conflicting emotions would be helpful to me as I feel I have somehow found a helpful place to store this tangled web in my head and I’m a practical person who tries not to dwell.
Hope this is helpful…I’m not sharing these things easily. I don’t want to make those experiencing L feel even worse that they already do.
Thanks, Kensa, for sharing your experiences. That was exactly what I had hoped for with the post – the sort of insight that the spouse is also waking up with intrusive thoughts they want to get rid of and can’t control. They get their own psychological burdens.
This point is also really powerful:
I agree that it doesn’t make sense. But it is the reality that most limerents report. I think the best explanation of the contradiction is that good long-term love has many layers (romance, affection, companionship, shared history, blended lives, trust, fun) whereas limerence is a state of excitement, arousal, and hunger for romantic reward. You can be in the mental state of limerence without removing the other forms of love and bonding. It just sort of sits on top. Maybe like how intoxication removes inhibitions but doesn’t actually change your personality.
It is hard to describe the experience in words.
Thank you so much for your blog post, Dr L.
I, too, have had the same confusion that Kensa has expressed about limerents feeling that they love their LO and their SO at the same time. When my husband first told me about his LE (after I confronted him with my suspicions), I literally thought he was telling me that our marriage was over. I just could not imagine how he could love LO and insist that his feelings for her did not change his feelings for me.
We all interpret others’ words and actions through our own filter. For me to tell my husband that I loved another man would mean that I no longer loved him. So for my husband to tell me that he loved LO (and he very used the word “love” — not crush, attraction, infatuation), it meant that he no longer loved me.
Thank you for the opportunity for SOs to comment. I plan to do so as I think there are many similarities in how SOs feel, just as there are many similarities in how different limerents feel.
I so agree with this. It would be unthinkable for me to feel the way I do about my partner and yet still fall in love with someone else. We have a lovely, companionable, supportive relationship, I still love him deeply…. and still get a thrill when I see him again when we have been apart.
My love for him would have had to be extinguished for some reason or a permanent end to our relationship occur before I could consider falling in love again.
I guess that is why it is so hard to fully understand it as I cannot hold these two conflicting ideas in my head simultaneously.
Kensa
I agree with Dr L on his association of limerence with intoxication. I’ve many times myself compared limerence to alcohol. And being my dear wife married a functioning alcoholic she could see the changes in my behavior in limerence long before I knew what limerence was or found this place. She confronted me about it. She knew something was off. Thought I was in a EA or PA.
Like intoxication she had to report my behavior to me. And like both I would downplay or feign surprise at what she would tell me. I honestly thought she was making things up. Telling her I would never do that. But I did do that. It’s like living outside your own head. Limerence doesn’t do well being discreet.
I don’t know if my wife ever felt anger. But I know she was hurt when upon finding this place I told her about limerence. The year I have been here in recovery has been hard on her. She does occasionally post here too. I’ve come along way thanks to Dr L and the community here. As the limerent I’ve come to the realization that I have to give my dear wife the time to recover just the same as she was gracious enough to give me the time to recover. I’m glad to report we are doing much better than a year ago.
Also I would say for most married limerents it’s not about some fault of their spouse but an unrelated trigger. While I didn’t realize in the midst of limerence I finally realized (long after LO left the scene) that she reminded me heavily of a woman I was very much in love with years before I met my wife. And am sure that was the reason I was drawn to her. Not because of some deficiency on my wife’s part. Though while in limerence I did think it was.
Kensa as a married man I cannot thank you enough for trying to understand the situation. Limerence can make a limerent seem like an egotistical selfish [expletive deleted] yet you responded with grace. I personally thank you for that. I am so grateful my wife did the same for me.
Someone “befriended” me after the briefest encounter with my spouse (I was present but unaware) of staring into each other’s eyes. My spouse initiated it. She subsequently befriended me within a week, began organizing couple activities, and led her husband and me to believe it was all just about couple friendship. My spouse went along with it which feels like a double/triple betrayal. He did nothing to protect me despite her being a stranger and my being a wife who has given yim much, by his own account. They continued with eye contact (unknown then to me) and she began touching him (when I questioned his permitting it, he lied and falsely reassured me). She put on a bouncy, energetic act, a standard act she puts on for other men too, something he witnessed himself but chose to “not see” at the same time. Later he admitted he knew the whole time it was an act but chose to believe it indicated love. There was much evidence of a range of types to counteract his idealization, but he chose to be blind to it all. Now that the illusion is gone he feels shocked and disappointed in himself for betraying his values. He feels sorry and ashamed for the hurt he caused (he was unkind to me). He is ashamed and detests the stress, strain and lies his brain told him. He even reached a delusional state temporarily where he thought they were going to be together. Then one day he literally threw her off him and walked away with me, she was furious. She ‘d thought she owned him. She fell apart, reverted to the behaviour of a toddler when he would not be submissive and return to being under her control.
Not long after that I asked questions so he chose to disclose. We can now understand it as limerence and he says it no longer has any hold on him, but even when exposed it takes time to get out from under it. At the same time he says reality would have kicked in if it became too real, eg is she showed up on the doorstep he’d have locked the door and pulled down the blinds.
We know deep down we are pair bonded. We know we love each other, even when convinced of something else.
As a spouse I haven’t yet come to terms with knowing that the strong feelings that went on inside him happened , and he was unable to balance his thoughts or take into account his true interests, that he is a black and white thinker so there was no nuance, he believed things that he now disavows, but the fact of their existence over time can not be undone and are a part of him. . It is the latter that I struggle with knowing and wishing it were not so. It the biggest barrier between us remaining. While time will make it dim and become irrelevant and become no longer remembered (only that it happened, but it will seem like another country), I find it hard not knowing if he is already there, or how long it will take. We are older so we may not have time. He reassures, but other times some sign or words contradict his reassurance though he then vehemently disavows it. How have other spouses handled the fear that he will secretly always believe it was the best thing?
Kensa,
“I still cannot get how it is possible for a L to believe themselves to be so deeply in love with their LO and yet still say it had nothing to do with their feelings for and about their long term partner. ”
I’d say limerence is a crush x1000. It’s entirely possible to have a crush on someone else and be in an LTR. I’m going to define crush as a brief infatution (stronger than an attraction to someone else but still much less powerful than limerence). If a co-worker you have a crush on leaves a job, a day or two later you’re over it. Whereas limerence seems to kind of take over one’s psyche and lingers.
I’ll get to my point. 🙂 To me, a crush is physiological response to someone. You get excited to see them, you feel giddy around them. Limerence is the same, only much stronger.
I personally don’t think there’s any reason to go chasing every crush one has. And there’s no reason to chase limerence (if the limerent or LO is not available). Because limerence is such powerful feeling, I think people think it means more than it does. Like a crush, it’s a surface feeling that is based on a lot of projection. What the limerent has to do is recognize that limerence is a feeling. It’s powerful, but it’s still just feeling.
Thank you for sharing this, Marcia. I personally found it helpful. I can however see the point about it being a blog post specifically for those with limerent SOs though.
I find it hard to share my thoughts when compared with the intense feelings and experiences of the L contributors; my experience just doesn’t seem as valid.
I hope if we do so we might get further insights shared by other people in situations similar to my own.
Your comment about feeling that your experience doesn’t seem as valid as the experiences of the limerents makes me a little sad, Kensa. Of course your feelings are as valid. I think that SOs of limerents undergo a parallel emotional storm, and I’m even more motivated now to write about my experience as SO of limerent.
Limerents,
I was thinking, maybe , this blog space should be reserved exclusively for SOs who have been betrayed by their limerent spouses…
Dr. L,
Could you please delete my post?
Marcia, I try hard not to keep posting but I am still reading most of the comments and I wanted say this to you.
I am so very sorry that you want your last post to be deleted because I think it is clear, unequivocal and very wise.
The only concept I have a slight problem with is that of “chasing limerence”. In my case, for example, I guess that’s what I have been doing but the changed state of mind which comes with limerence makes that become difficult and fuzzy. It’s such a powerful thing.
My silence for quite a few days (and does one person’s opinion really matter?) has been because I have felt conflicted. I respect your approach, and even that of L.E., but I have been blown away by the kindness of the several moderate posters who also take time to be thoughtful, reflective and kind.
I have no experience of “Dealing with limerence in marriage” but I am brutally aware that I could possibly have upset my LO’s SO. I am now going through a strange stage of outrage because of my LO’s erstwhile reciprocation and his beautiful messages. I absolutely must resolutely continue to ignore him, however – it’s not that difficult when you’re being ghosted anyway.
I don’t want to fuel any controversy but the divergent nature of some of the posts on this site, still sometimes thought-provoking, will probably help me to drift away – eventually….
Frederico
Don’t be so hard on yourself my friend. I caused distress on my own spouse. Not much different. That your LO connects with you still despite your opposites does baffle me. And I care a great deal for you. Im sorry you are going through this confusing ordeal.
But here its only 3:30 and I’m totally not sober playing Castlevania: Symphony of the Night (the greatest Castlevania game ever) so maybe I’m just throwing stuff at the wall to see if it sticks. But I hate to see you in pain. Just do what I say and not what I do. It’s hard on the liver.
If you have a way outside of this forum to contact you and talk I am here my friend. A phone call, text, email I am here for you. Never forget that.
Now I think Imma make some brauts with horseradish, jalapeños and sauerkraut in a tortilla 🙂
Ah, sorry Kensa et al. I was not fully reading the room on this blog 🤐
Frederico,
I’ll respond to your post in the coffeehouse: would you turn limerence off?
Hi Marcia,
I’m going to leave the comment up, because I think it was a sincere and useful attempt to explain how limerents can simultaneously feel love for a partner but also get captured by a sugar-rush crush.
Sensitive to Kensa’s point, though, let’s keep the contributions from limerents minimalist and only focused on answering any questions.
It’s a dialogue, but biased to the SO perspective.
Kensa, sorry for the pain you have gone through but thank-you for trying to understand limerence.
I have been happily married for nearly 24 years and about 2 years ago limerence struck fast and out of nowhere for a coworker. When I say fast, I am talking a 10 day period of not even having a mild crush on this person to feeling so “in love” with her. It happened because of a few interactions we had that made me feel like maybe she was attracted to me and I found out I really liked that feeling.
Point being, I had no issues with my spouse at the time. We have a good marriage, both emotionally and physically. But limerence happened. As you know, long term companionship love has little to do with feeling in love and everything to do with the action of giving yourself in love to another. Loving your spouse and feeling in love with someone else are not mutually exclusive things. I wish I could say I have as intense in love feelings for my spouse but after 26 years of being together those feelings give way to a deeper companionship. I would not give that companionship up for limerence. Limerence is all about being struck again with those in love feelings of new emotional and sexual desire. Most people are able to brush them aside but us Limerents are not able to so easily even though we try hard. The feelings persist. Hopefully we become aware of the problem before we do anything damaging to our SO or LO.
My SO does not know of my limerence. She would be very hurt by it and I don’t want to put that stress upon her. But one of the odd things, since I became limerent I had more affection and desire for my SO also. It’s as if the LE woke me up to a more romantic side of me that needs an outlet and because the LE is distressing I have pulled closer to my SO for comfort and in appreciation of her. This is not exclusive to me but seems to be a common theme with a lot of married Limerents.
Hope that sheds some light for you.
Thank you for your post, Kensa. You have honestly portrayed the feelings of the SO having to deal with their partner’s limerence. I concur with pretty much everything you wrote and I can imagine how difficult it was for you to write it.
I will write more another time. I just wanted to let you know you’re not alone.
I did the opposite of the most common advice which tends to focus too much on the limerents’ needs, cautioning the SO to take a path of proving their sweetness to the spouse to make him or her want to stay. I agree with employing empathy and compassion, but not at the expense of truth and accountability. Not at the expense of the SO expressing what they are truly enduring. All are necessary.
One advantage is having long ago having a similar experience as the L that time (though had no knowledge about limerence). I don’t know if I could survive being in the SO role otherwise . I know how an LO can fade into the past and the true pair bond continue. The LO never feels right in reality in the way the one you truly pair bonded with does in reality. The most important things are to tear down the illusion and get to work on the real issues in your marriage. Get to true intimacy. Only path is through truth. Only way is looking at yourself in the mirror. Anyway, married over 50 years and we see us lasting to the end. No more L for either. We learned our lesson the hard way.
Hi cj – Thank you for sharing your wisdom. My husband and I met 45 years ago and have been married for nearly 41 years. Despite my heartache in grappling with his limerence, I do feel pair-bonded with him and I know he feels the same.
I especially loved your comment: “The most important things are to tear down the illusion and get to work on the real issues in your marriage. Get to true intimacy.” When I’m not feeling as wounded as I often feel, I begin to see my husband’s limerence almost as a metaphor or a symbol or the “presenting problem.” It’s not the real problem between my husband and me. The excavation process of digging at the real problem is daunting. He’s not comfortable talking about feelings, but we’re chipping at it slowly, as that needs to be done.
Cj
I so agree with you and SO Miranda. Midlife and issues in our marriage is why I fell into limerent. Instead of addressing said issues I sought solace in another woman. Also “tear down the illiusion” that exLO isn’t the perfect woman. You, the limerent, built up that illusion and it is your responsibility to abolish it and bring yourself back to reality.
I am very fortunate to have a wife that was willing to stay and help me work through this to strengthen our bond. Years later we are still working at it. It seems it takes twice the time or longer to repair the damage you, the limerent did, in half the time.
I have never in almost 25 years of marriage talked to my wife about separation except in thrall of limerence. Powerful stuff.
Thank you Kensa for sharing your experience. I am just under going the same experience. I have marriage of 17 years, I love my SO even I used to tell my LE that he is not like my SO. But without knowing I fell for him and when I realised I tried to pull myself back but invain and now I am experiencing the same as you experienced the mental agony. I lost weight as I lost my appetite, I can’t sleep soundly. And all these things are jeopardizing my marriage.
My LO was in trouble I thought I was helping him. But that took toll on me.
Hi Kensa,
The physical manifestations that you describe ironically are extremely similar to mine when I was the negative portion of a limerent state. It’s as if your experience as a non-limerent spouse gave you all of the negative feelings and insanity of a limerent experience. I am so sorry you are going through this, but so very glad you have found the support you need to get through it. Thank you for sharing. 💙
I am reading this post in conjunction with Chumplady’s post on bitterness. Definitely synchronicity at play. Is this specific to limerence though? Or is limerence much more prevalent than we know? Quite a lot of the narratives in CL’s space sound like they are from a SO’s perspective.
Link to CL’s Bitterness post; https://www.chumplady.com/dont-call-betrayed-people-bitter-a-rant/
Just like Kensa, for many months after my husband told me he loved LO, his LE was the very first thing I thought about when I woke up. I still think about it virtually every day, though not with the same intensity.
It’s the most excruciatingly painful upheaval I have gone through. (I shouldn’t state it in the past — it’s still very painful.) At the time (a little over two years ago), my husband and I had known each other for over 43 years and had been married for nearly 39. We’re not young people, in other words. He’s in his mid 70s now and I’m in my late 60s.
I think SOs suffer from intrusive thoughts and rumination that parallel the intrusive thoughts and rumination that limerents feel. The feelings I’ve felt include rage, humiliation, heartbreak, grief, worthlessness, brokenness. My husband has often talked about my jealousy, but I don’t feel that’s a significant part of what I feel. The dominant emotion for me is feeling wounded.
(As an aside, I find it interesting when people refer to their partners’ jealousy as “just jealousy” as though it’s not a horridly painful emotion to feel.)
Dr. L’s points out: “The limerent has usually been thinking about the situation for an extended period – and limerents can really think about their LO – by the time their spouse is appraised of the problem. The spouse will then be playing an unpleasant game of panicked catch-up in the period after disclosure. It’s unreasonable to assume they will be able to think rationally or calmly.”
I’ve experienced the “panicked catch-up” both in trying to understand the LE, and also the disturbing need to go back and see events in the past and their relationship to the LE. I’m relatively certain that my husband’s LO figured out what was going on (even if my husband did not specifically confess his love) and the knowledge that my husband and LO knew in real time what was going on is upsetting to me. That feels like a conspiracy of sorts.
We’ve had a very good marriage for the most part. There were circumstances I’ve described before that made my husband “fertile soil for limerence.” We have had many conversations about his LE and are in a good place in our relationship now. I was struck, however, by a paragraph in Dr. L’s blog that clearly expressed something I’ve been feeling lately. Dr. L. wrote: “One of the big dangers in trying to mutually resolve the limerence problem is that the spouse is desperately trying to regain some control over the situation and their lives, and so opens themselves up to the possibility that by changing their behaviour – by becoming a better partner – they can fix the problem. Limerents are motivated to go along with this narrative because it salves their conscience about their own conduct. It’s a trap. It’s deferring a true reckoning into the future to try and gain some short-term relief.”
I feel that we are in that trap now. I have been that desperate spouse trying to figure things out, trying to have the conversations, trying to be a better partner. This is not to say that he’s not trying to be a better partner. He has been making a lot of effort as well. At this point, he would like to stop talking about the LE because he considers it history. It’s not history for me — possibly because of the time gap between beginning of LE and my becoming aware of it. For me, the painful feelings continue. I don’t know that SOs can truly get over their partners’ LE. It’s like grief that you learn to live with, but you never get over it.
I think it was Adam who had posted about seeing Morgan Freeman on TV or youtube and had immediately been reminded of his LO. I didn’t respond then, but I did think how painful it would be for his wife to hear the name Morgan. My husband’s LO has a relatively common name that also happens to be a relatively common noun. The example I’ll give is the name “Rose” — not LO’s real name. I wince every time I hear the name or the noun. And not only do I have to manage my emotion, but the hypervigilant in me simultaneously checks to see my husband’s reaction if he’s nearby.
To sum it up, being SO of a limerent is pure hell. There’s never a shortage of miserable feelings to access.
I meant to add that one of the truly horrible feelings I have as SO is relentless pressure to be perfect. This is not pressure I feel from my husband. It’s an internal pressure because I now know that I’m married to a man who is capable of loving another woman. So I’m afraid to get angry, to raise my voice, to say I’m too tired to cook or to make love. I’m not saying I never raise my voice or I make love when I don’t want to, but the voice that I shouldn’t feel what I feel doesn’t stop.
So sometimes I feel like an edited version of myself because I don’t want “to rock the boat.”
I’ll be honest and say to you that your reaction and Kensa’s reaction is why I have never told my SO about my LE. I think her reaction would be similar to both yours and I don’t want to do that to her. I’m not in an EA/PA and I am not actively pursuing my LO so no reason to rock that boat and create an existential crisis in my marriage.
I should say if I did tell SO I would never frame it as love, because I don’t think limerence is love. But I have the benefit of this blog and great knowledge of limerence.
Telling her will bring you both into reality and that’s a better place to be, however it rocks the two of you, than living a lie and an illusion that you control unilaterally. Truth gives you both choices. You are withholding that from her. Self-interested rather than kind.
I know that only SOs should write here but since a few limerents wrote I wanted to put another experience here to have a diverse picture.
I had very intense feelings for my LOs but I always knew that my feelings for SO were deeper. There was never ever a question of my feelings for SO being superior, I even could compare him very favorably my mind with LOs, but still I couldn’t erase the still very intense feelings for the LOs.
I was always prone to little crushes or appreciation for special people, but I think my first LE developed in a phase in my marriage where we were both stressed and a bit grown apart.
After that the second could come along based on the mood regulating and intensive-feeling- producing habits I developed during very intense LE1, is my guess.
That’s one point I slightly disagree with other limerents, the other is that it did affect my relationship with SO.
My limerence always distanced me a bit from SO, he got pushed backwards in my mind. Maybe it had the positive aspect of me being more indulgent with some problems we had, but I‘m not sure. There was just more distance and a lot of being not there with him in the moment in my thoughts.
I don’t know if that helps, I just wanted to say that I do know the feeling of being capable of loving many people and the whole world at the same time, without loving anyone less for it, but I still knew 1. with whom I wanted to share my life 2. that this feeling is un-livable with most people and won’t endure simply because my own insecurities and expectations will come in the way, 2. that both this „My love is big enough for all“ and „it makes my relationship better“ are both signs only of the good times of my limerences, when I was giddy and happy, not of the bad times.
Sorry for that but I wanted to put another perspective in for the SOs.
As DrL posted, trying to stay in the spirit of keeping the discussion in the perspective of the limerent’s SO, I’ll relate the discussion my wife and I had when I disclosed my LE/EA 3 years after LO #4 and I said goodbye.
The first thing out of my wife’s mouth was:
“Did you love her?”
I waffled and said that I didn’t think I could love someone I’d never met or even spoken to directly. All our correspondence had been virtual.
My wife has lived with me long enough to know the difference between an answer and a response. An answer is always a response but a response isn’t always an answer. An answer closes the question and she wanted an answer so she asked again,
“But, did you love her.”
At the time, I thought I might have but I was never going to tell my wife that so I lied.
“I don’t think so.”
It still wasn’t an answer but my wife let it go at that.
Note added by Dr L: I am deleting comments on this thread that are too focused on the limerent’s feelings, especially if they veer towards justification.
Responding to partner’s comments if they raise questions is fine, but this isn’t the place to share your own story – please hop over to the Coffeehouse for that.
Thanks,
Dr L
I think that is too bad that you are erasing some comments. I wanted to reply to LIS.
LIS-
I have to say, I believe you really are missing the mark. I wonder how much you are “listening” the Kensa and SO.Miranda’s comments. I doubt they need you to tell them how much you still love your wife.
They are telling trying to tell you the level of betrayal and pain SO has felt in the past… and most likely will feel once she find out about your current affair.
At this point, when you acknowledge how wrong your actions are etc. etc. etc. it feels like empty words. In my opinion, until you come clean with your SO and yourself about the depth of your betrayal, you will have a marriage built on deceit.
I am sure other people will be annoyed at my post- but I was pretty disappointed to see your response.
I support that. It seems self-centred, not to say heartless, for limerents to be using this space to wax on about their LOs. So little available SOs and trauma they can endure when limerent spouse loses sight of them in a similarly self-centred and heartless way, yet the limerent want to stay with their SO (often the case, as LO is by definition unavailable).
Just to say thanks to Kensa and Miranda for your insights, which I really appreciate and a great reality check.
Kensa said
” I find it hard to share my thoughts when compared with the intense feelings and experiences of the L contributors; my experience just doesn’t seem as valid”.
Please know your experiences and comments and view points are more than valid !
Yes, this x 1000
I want to say thank you to Kensa and SO.Miranda too. I think this is CRUCIAL information for limerents – especially when they consider whether to disclose to an SO or not. In LwL, there has been a pretty strong line taken on: NEVER DISCLOSE to an LO (unless you are both single and available); and DISCLOSE to your SO, so it is you both against the limerence, and you can work as a team, and you have accountability, honesty, etc.
I think I’ve read enough instances of the consequences of disclosing to an LO from the Limerents here to say it is probably not a good idea. However, what was missing was what are the consequences on the SOs – and that is a gap that I am glad Dr L is trying to close here. It is so useful to hear from the SOs themselves. So far, I remember hearing about SOs’ reactions from the Limerents’ understanding/reporting of it … and it lacked the power and nuance of the first hand experiences shared here by Kensa and SO.Miranda. Their pain is palpable. What their words really hit home for me is: your spouse being in limerence can be as painful as an actual betrayal. It may not be voluntary, you may not want it, and you may have valiantly tried to prevent it from becoming an EA or PA, but the fact is this: you felt this limerence for another person. No matter what the context, this is a truth. And it hurts your SO. I was so sad that Kensa and SO.Miranda thought about their spouses’ limerence EVERY DAY for YEARS. Yes, being a Limerent is torture, but for it to torture their SO as well (it’s not even like the pain is shared, the limerent still has the pain but now the SO has it, too).
I think the answer of whether to tell your SO is more nuanced. It depends on KNOWING your SO. If you have a situation where you think roping in your SO will help you actually get over it AND you know your SO won’t be grievously hurt by the disclosure, then maybe it is okay (or maybe you had to, to prevent a worse misunderstanding like you had an actual affair if your spouse is suspicious). I remember reading that Dr L’s wife was a limerent herself (?) – so perhaps she has a more empathetic experience than totally non-limerent SOs would be. Also, in that scenario, consider they BOTH had limerence, so you could say there is an element of tit-for-tat which is absent if the SO of a limerent was never limerent for anyone else. I note Kensa’s total bewilderment at the concept of loving two people, and SO.Miranda’s feeling of insecurity that comes from a man who can love another woman. I totally get that now that they have articulated it.
What hearing FIRST HAND from SOs means is that we can’t downplay just how painful our limerence is on our partners. We don’t want to hurt our partners, so there is a vested interest in taking the view that our limerence CAN’T hurt them so much, because we don’t mean it, it wasn’t our choice, etc. But it is basic that intention (or no intention in this case) is not the same as IMPACT. The impact of our limerence on a spouse can be very hurtful. We may not mean it, and we may want to resist the guilt of it, but the truth is, if our SO is hurt, they are hurt; and there is not whether they have a right to it or not – they just ARE. None of us want that, but you got to call a spade a spade.
Your odds, I think with a disclosure of limerence to a spouse is probably similar to disclosure of any other kind of emotional (or physical) “straying” from your marriage – as in some marriages survive the disclosure of an EA or PA, and others don’t. I think some marriages will survive the disclosure of limerence, and others won’t. It just depends on the particular SO in question. For some, the fact that it is involuntary will carry a lot of weight; others might intellectually accept that there was no volition but still feel unsafe emotionally in the relationship – possibly forever.
I have a friend who is limerent for someone else other than her partner. She would never consciously “betray” her partner, and when I said, well, you’re doing the right thing, she said BUT I put myself in my partner’s shoes – if he told me he was so wildly attracted to someone else, it would DEVASTATE me. So, even when she is in a position to empathize with the experience of limerence, she’s not sure she could actually get over it herself if she became the SO of a limerent.
Thank you again for sharing your experiences, Kensa and SO.Miranda. You have given me a lot of new food for thought regarding the effect of limerence. I hope other SOs will also share their perspectives.
Thank you, Rainbowbrite for your insightful commentary. I’m sorry I don’t know your story, but it seems that you are (or have been) limerent yourself, so it’s very comforting to be understood by a limerent.
I took special note of your comment: “We don’t want to hurt our partners, so there is a vested interest in taking the view that our limerence CAN’T hurt them so much, because we don’t mean it, it wasn’t our choice, etc. But it is basic that intention (or no intention in this case) is not the same as IMPACT. The impact of our limerence on a spouse can be very hurtful. We may not mean it, and we may want to resist the guilt of it, but the truth is, if our SO is hurt, they are hurt; and there is not whether they have a right to it or not – they just ARE.”
The dynamic you describe occurred in my relationship. My husband repeatedly would say to me that I was “making a mountain out of a molehill.” It didn’t feel like a molehill to me, but because I desperately wanted it to be a molehill, I spent months asking for explanations with the hope that with enough information I would understand it as a molehill as well. Sadly, all the explanations showed me that the LE was indeed the mountain I felt it to be.
I don’t know if my husband’s desire for me to see it as a molehill is driven by his wish to not hurt me or his need to alleviate guilt and cognitive dissonance. A little of both, I imagine.
Being the SO of a limerent is crushing and humiliating. To hear the words, “I love (blank)!” wipes away “…but I love you too”. In fact, it puts the entire shared experience into doubt and once there is doubt, there is digging and then – well, then the truth was revealed.
I refused to be a backstop and runner-up in my own marriage.
Best wishes to other SO’s.
Great to hear from you, Lee! Sorry that this post is reviving sad memories, but hope you are otherwise thriving.
Thank you. I hope the same for you and yours too.
One question then that I feel is vital and should be discussed here is if you choose to tell your SO, how do you say it? How do you frame the limerence against your relationship with SO. Especially if you love your SO, choose your SO, and want out of the limerence. For instance, if I were to tell SO, I would never use the word love when referring to LO and limerence.
So what’s the road map to that conversation that takes into account the hurt it may inevitably cause SO?
I would bring up feeling embarrassed by the experience. It makes it a bit less personal and more manageable.
YMMV
There’s a post on this issue:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/
Honest but sensitive is the summary.
Sorry am not an SO but have done this…
As you say, do not use the word Love, refer to LO as a mental object upon which you have projected your emotional needs, be apologetic and give them plenty of re-assurance that it changes nothing (for you) in your relationship.
I explained the key characteristics of limerence to my SO. I think it helped that he really understands the nature addiction so he totally got the intrusive, repetitive, and mostly unwanted nature of limerent thoughts.
The “us vs limerence” approach was not for me. My limerence is my problem to manage, there was nothing my SO could have done to help other than exactly what he did which was to pragmatically accept it and continue to trust me and my commitment to our marriage.
I suppose framing it thus, “I have a really bad crush at present, I have had them all my life, and this is just the same. It’s not something I’m proud of, it makes me feel rather awkward talking about it and I wish they didn’t happen.
I know it is all in my head and if X showed any real interest in me I would run a mile. I’m not looking for another love, I have that with you already.
It’s more like a fascination with the idea of this person.
In the past they have taken a while for me to get over them but I always have.
I’m working hard on myself to overcome it because I’m committed to the great life I have with you.
What do you need to know?”
Just a few ideas here it’s not a prescription.
The thing is, framing it as an inherent flaw means you may do it again, and breeds distrust. If you are always limerent, what’s to stop it happening again? And if it’s a one-time thing, then are you saying your LO is special and one-of-a-kind? Either way, the SO suffers.
I’ve been stuck in this loop, reassuring my SO that my LE was a one-off (it was). That makes SO ask ”What’s so special about this man that he’s the only one that can make you go crazy?”
At the same time, describing myself as a limerent makes SO question why I wouldn’t do this again. Disclosure to SO is the second circle of hell of an LE (NC being the first).
Maybe this is where an addiction framing helps? An alcoholic always has the potential to fall off the wagon, but many succeed in staying sober and being a good partner. It’s a vulnerability they can learn to manage.
What Dr L said about addiction framing is extremely true (for me) and may be of comfort to an SO.
OCD tendencies also, in my case made it difficult to stop the slide towards that addiction.
Validation seeking bejavoour is the other aspect which may bing comfort to SO. It may not so much be about what is so special about this person that they drove me crazy, but more, they validated me in tbe way I wanted. It wasn’t about them but more about me, they were a catylst for those feelings.
I dont know my LO that well, how could they be everything? They represent something *but* I have constructed it all myself. They are a projection of my own (pathetic) need for validation from a stranger…
I have been a lurker here for a while. When I found this blog about a year ago, I felt like I could finally understand what was happening in my life. I’m so grateful for the perspective that that Dr L’s posts and comments have given me and because it sounds like there’s some interest from limerents in hearing from SOs I thought I’d post for the first time. Sorry in advance for the length of the post.
My BF and I were each other’s first loves, more than three decades ago. We are in our 50s now. We went separate ways — I got married and had kids and he had a series of LTRs but never married or had kids. When my marriage ended, my now-BF and I reconnected and we saw each other every few months, but we were non-exclusive due to the distance. At a certain point, he got involved with another woman who was local to him. After discussions between the two of us, he said that he wanted to be with me and he ended the relationship with the other women (let’s call her LO). I didn’t pressure him to end his relationship with her, and in fact told him that if he wanted to pursue that relationship instead of ours, I’d understand.
After that, I started splitting my time between his city and mine, with most of my time spent in his city. Unbeknownst to me, he continued communicating with LO and seeing her when I wasn’t there. One day out of the blue (to me, anyway) she showed up at his home and tried to force her way into the house to confront me. When he wouldn’t let her in or throw me out on the spot, she punched him in the head, causing an injury that required him to go to the hospital. I was standing behind the door while this was going on.
After that, I told him that if he was going to be with me, he’d have to go no contact with LO and he said he would. What followed was two and half years of classic limerence — near constant rumination and sporadic contact between them, some of which I knew about and some of which I didn’t — with a brief breakup and move-out in the middle initiated by me when I discovered him communicating with her. During this entire time, he consistently told me that he wanted to be with me and not her. During our brief breakup, he got back together with her but that only lasted eight days before he begged for me to give him another chance and move back in.
What seems to have finally ended the limerence for him was that LO got so frustrated by him that she ultimately sent me a long email bragging about his obsession with her, offering to get together with me to “compare lies” and attaching recent texts and emails he sent to her where he negatively compared me to her and communicated that on a romantic vacation with me, she was all he could think about. She sent him a parallel email telling him (among many other ugly things about him and me) that her intent was to destroy his relationship with me and ruin his life.
With that as background, here is my experience as a SO. It was YEARS of slow-drip torture. You may think that you can hide your limerent obsession from your SO and that s/he won’t notice. You are lying to yourself. I could feel the distance, the lack of attention, the negative comparisons in his attitude toward me. I even got so that I could tell when he had been looking at her social media from the way he treated me. She is a public person in our city with a very prolific and curated social media presence.
That sort of constant devaluation is not sustainable and even my own friends and family (and actually, his friends and family) wondered why I stayed. I stayed because we are compatible in just about every way — intellectually, sexually, temperamentally. We have a history together. And somehow even though I didn’t know about limerence, I just viscerally knew that what he was going through was some sort of addiction process and that if he could kick it, what we had was worth fighting for.
Another consequence of this experience for me is that during all those years of his limerence, I lived in fear of her. Although I had never actually met her and my BF tried to keep my identity from her, I had seen her capacity for violence and vindictiveness with my own eyes. If a man had done what she did, he’d have been charged with domestic violence and jailed. She had access through her job to various technologies that let her conduct surveillance of my movements. I don’t want to be too specific, but I knew when she was in a position to watch me and it was threatening and scary. I had regular nightmares and often couldn’t sleep. I am a naturally thin person but I lost even more weight due to the stress. All the while, up until she sent the email to me, my BF continued to idealize LO, insisting that I had nothing to fear from her because she “wasn’t like that any more” and that her violence had been a “one time thing.” That, of course, turned out not to be true.
I saw a therapist during that time who kept asking me if the situation had damaged my self-esteem and I can honestly say that I don’t think it did. I am considered an attractive woman and am regularly told that I look 10-15 years younger than I am. I have a successful career and lots of friends who care about me. LO didn’t have it over me in terms of looks or intelligence. She is not personable and just about every member of my BF’s family and friends who met her during their initial relationship describes her as “awful.” She even has something of a drug problem. However, she was both emotionally and financially needy which turned out to be the attraction for my BF. Caring for her serious emotional needs and paying for things she otherwise couldn’t afford (neither of which he has to do for me) were very seductive for him. She is “damaged” in a way that I am not and that was so confusing for me until I realized that to him in the throes of his obsession, that was a feature, not a bug.
In the more than a year since “email-gate,” my BF and I have rebuilt our relationship and as I anticipated, it’s as great as I always knew it could be. But there is still lingering damage. I had a hard time for a long time believing he was finally over her. I’m not congenitally a jealous person but I certainly have lingering trust issues that bubble up sometimes. His reaction to that is healing — he accepts responsibility for it being his fault every time and promises it will never happen again. He has never once expressed frustration that it’s so hard for me to get over it. I also have a lot of latent anger at both of them. He tortured me with his perseveration over her and betrayed me repeatedly. My pride is hurt. I have a hard time believing that he would risk what we had for someone like her. And I have anger at her that she surveilled my movements and invaded my life with her ugliness. Like some of the other posters, I think about it every day of my life. Every. Single. Day. There are a lot of memories that are ruined because I now know that he was communicating with her or even seeing her behind my back during those times. He has expressed interest in getting married, but I shy away from that because of my continuing trust issues.
My advice to limerents with SOs is this, for whatever it’s worth. Trying to hide your limerence doesn’t work. Your SO can feel your obsession and telling her/him everything is fine is just gaslighting. Your LO may not be the paragon you’ve convinced yourself that they are, and if you get involved in an emotional or physical affair with your LO, think about how you would feel if s/he threatened or stalked your SO, because I’m here to tell you that it can happen no matter how wonderful you believe your LO to be.
Also, I’m not Dr L but I see a connection between my BF’s relationship OCD and his limerence. He would have a fit of ROCD obsessiveness and start questioning whether our relationship was the right one or whether I was the right person for him and then would start idealizing his LO and thinking that his life would be perfect if he were with her. That was his cycle. His constant watching of her social media fed his obsession with her. I used to tell him “I can’t compete with an imaginary person.” Also, know that even if your SO stays with you, there may be lasting damage to your relationship that you will never be able to repair.
Lastly, some thoughts for other SOs from my own experience. Nothing concentrates the mind of your limerent partner quite so much as you leaving. I truly think when push comes to shove, most limerents don’t want to cast off their entire lives for the fantasy and nothing illustrates that point more than leaving them to face the reality of what life will be like without you so that they can finally appreciate what they have. Move out, even if it’s to a friend’s house or a hotel for a few days. Go out. Have some fun. Make sure your partner know that your life will move on without them in it because it will.
Thanks again, Dr L and everyone for being there for me. This blog was a lifesaver at a difficult time in my life and I still read it every Saturday. I hope that this post pays it forward a little bit.
It does. Thanks, SOCharlotte.
Really sorry to hear what you went through. Disordered LOs are an extra taste of hell to add to the betrayal.
Thank you for sharing your hugely upsetting experience with us. I sincerely hope you are able to navigate a loving shared future. I’m thankful the experience has not shattered your self-esteem for it surely could have done without such resilience.
“Trying to hide your limerence doesn’t work. Your SO can feel your obsession and telling her/him everything is fine is just gaslighting.”
I can tell you first hand you are absolutely correct. However convincing a limerent of something that they can’t see (or subconsciously don’t want to) is about as fruitless as reasoning with a drunk person. Because just like alcohol limerence is intoxicating and alters your brain.
” Also, know that even if your SO stays with you, there may be lasting damage to your relationship that you will never be able to repair.”
My wife and I are in the aftermath of it all. She has chose to forgive if I am willing to work to make our marriage better. Our relationship with each other better. And that is what I am trying to do now. All the frustrations you said between you and him are the same frustrations my wife had. Down to being in the same limerent cycle as your boyfriend.
I hope that you two can work this out. Please know that your boyfriend’s shame and assurance that he is over this is more than likely (I’d almost say I am 100% sure just by what you shared here) genuine and he really is trying to make up for it.
“Nothing concentrates the mind of your limerent partner quite so much as you leaving.”
For us the difference was I came to my wife about separation more than once. She never tried to leave. She certainly wasn’t “with” me in the same capacity as before it all. But she was physically there and continue to stay up until now.
Either way thank you for sharing your story. Seeing somber posts like this remind me of the hurt and damage I did. And I need those reminders to stay on the right path. Nothing will ever be the same again, but I can continue to work to make it better.
Attempting to hide your limerence definitely doesn’t work.
I knew for 18months that something didn’t feel right.
My SO stopped making eye contact, was always encouraging me to go away on visits, work trips, stopped taking any initiative sexually and lost interest in usual hobbies. Gradually as things developed, moving from the blissful early reveries to the obsessional stalking of his LO online and his sleeplessness and panic attacks, he became forgetful, distant, distracted and unavailable emotionally.
Initially I assumed it was something about me, so I tried my hardest to be the best partner I could. Then I began to wonder if it was perhaps early dementia and spoke to a friend with a partner with dementia.
Obviously the time I had no idea what was going on but I certainly knew something significant had changed.
Maybe this was all the more noticeable because we shared such a happy and satisfying retired life, perhaps if we had been busy working people he could have hidden it more effectively.
Thank you both for sharing your feelings. Devastating to hear the impact of your SOs disclosure . I haven’t disclosed to my SO.
When I realised I was limerent, I did all the research that I could and came to the conclusion that as it was all in my head, I could work on it, get rid of it and not hurt my husband in the process. I was not having an EA/PA. But every relationship is unique so maybe you needed to know. I am certain that I wouldn’t want to know. With hindsight, do you wish you didn’t know?
Hi Gemma – I think you probably did the right thing by not disclosing to your SO. It sounds like you were self-aware and because you did your research, you had an understanding of limerence.
My husband also did not have an EA/PA. His LO was someone in our social circle, and I observed his interactions with her and his comments about her and concluded that he had a crush on her. I asked him about it and he disclosed then.
I would say that had he not “leaked” his feelings, I probably would have preferred to not know. The psychological toll on me has been enormous. However, had he not told me the truth, I would have felt greater pain at the deception.
So I think that if the SO suspects, the Limerent should tell the truth as gently as possible, assuming they want to stay with SO. Or even not — kindness is always appreciated. But if SO truly has no idea, and if Limerent is self-aware and recognizes it as an altered state, and works on NC or LC, then perhaps not hurting SO with disclosure is best.
Hi Miranda
I agree. You suspected something was up so your SO had to face the music. Although it must have been extremely painful for you, at least he was honest and faced the music but I can’t imagine how hurt you must have been and probably still are. My SO has no idea what I’ve been going through and with the help of other limerents online and a great therapist who knows a lot about limerence, I am sorting myself out and protecting him and our marriage at the same time. I’ve been through a train crash, he doesn’t have to go through one too.
My SO has no idea, something which also troubles me because I think… am I such a good actress? How am I managing to get over LO and still lead a formal life? LO was all in my imagination, my inner child seeking validation in the wrong place. So that makes me feel less guilty, it was never a real connection or a real relationship.
I hope you are able to overcome your hurt and come to realise that your SO and his LO were never real.
I would definitely have preferred not to know but things had deteriorated with my SO so much that his ability to ‘keep his ducks in a row’ was failing fast and the two separate compartments of his life ie the actual and the virtual were blurring. Something had to happen.
If my SO had recognised and acknowledged his L and had taken positive steps to manage both the L and our relationship then things would have gradually improved for us and I would never have needed to know. As it was, the disclosure became inevitable, due to a bizarre turn of events, and he handled it badly at the time by denying it was happening when I had the evidence in front of me.
Hopefully those who are considering disclosing to their SO will be further along in their journey to self-management of Limerence…by even considering the if, when and how of it, they surely must be.
Hi Kensa
It sounds like he had to tell you. I think in circumstances like yours, there really is no choice but to be honest. My SO doesn’t know at all. And I am glad I have spared him the hurt.
I’ve had NC for 9 weeks and I can’t tell you how relieved I am that I’ve managed it and that it’s working. If it wasn’t, maybe I would have had to think about disclosing to SO and seeking his help.
But I had the knowledge of what I was dealing with and what I had to do to get back to being my usual self. If that self awareness hadn’t been there it would be another story. Well done for sharing your side of the story and for your courage, I can’t imagine how devastating it must have been for you.
Thank you dr L. for this post and the shared experiences. My husband of 11 years (together for 17 years since we were very young). Became limerent for one of my closest friends. He and I experienced a lot of trauma. We had 6 miscarriages, an ectopic pregnancy that nearly killed me. A complication after a surgery causing sepsis. But we were strong, so I thought.
On the birthday party of our youngest son he got the glimmer for her. Soon after that I couldn’t do anything right, starting slowly and subtle af first. He started a friendship with her. I didn’t recognize my loving husband anymore. He told me things like I never loved you, I’m only staying with you because I’m scared of you, I’m sure you’re going to physically abuse me and nobody would believe me. When you almost died because of your complication I hoped you died in surgery so I could be finally happy. You’re an evil psychopath. I saw his face when she texted him and I knew, He finally disclosed to her. She called me crying she didn’t expect this, she was afraid she’d lost me as a friend. My husband sat next to me. He thought his “soulmate” would told me she felt the same so he could leave me and our kids and living with her and her kids. She said to him they couldn’t be friends and that she would cut of all contact with him.
I started to compensate everything after that. Being the perfect mother and wife, because I blamed myself. Maybe I was a psychopath? If I wasn’t autistic, if my body didn’t kill our baby’s with miscarriages, If I wasn’t weak he would’ve never do this to me. A few weeks after that he said “I love the kids, that’s why I’m staying. I’m giving you an ultimatum, If my feelings don’t come back in a few months we should get a divorce”. It was like his body was snatched. We’re a few months later. Becoming his old self more and more. But he finds it hard to talk about. “I didn’t want this, It was never my intention, it’s because of the trauma’s we experienced, I couldn’t help it”.
He’s doing quite fine now trying his very best for me. But I think about this everyday. The things he said to me, and he would throw away everything we had for someone he barely knew. He said “I could look at our boys thinking I love them. Fully knowing it would break our oldest son but the only important thing was being a good husband to her and a good dad for her kids.” He knew he did the same to me and our kids as his LO’s ex did to her and their kids. But she didn’t deserve it. I did. It haunts me everyday.
Thanks for sharing your story, SoToLiHu. It’s a hard read. Your SO seems to have directed an extreme form of devaluation at you, and it’s not hard to see how much damage that would do to your self-esteem. It’s a lot to forgive. I hope you are finding sources of support that can help you make clear-headed and purposeful decisions about the future. It’s not good to spend your life haunted by your own husband’s insults and lies.
Yes I have. I think he doesn’t want to talk about it because of the shame. One of my sources of support is the LO. For her he was mainly someone she could trust as a platonic friend, now someone who hurt her friend. What doesn’t help some people said to him (his family and former therapist): “come on you just fell in love, we understand that. It’s not easy on you with all your trauma. You should choose you. It’s a nice girl (the lo) right? She touched something in you. Like it wasn’t relevant he and I have the exact same trauma’s. My husband just sat there next to me, saying nothing. When I asked him about him he said “They didn’t meant to hurt you, what they think is not relevant for you. It’s my family, my therapy. I’m not agreeing with them but it wouldn’t matter if I stood up for you” He doesn’t think or react like this anymore. It hurts him deeply he was the one who broke me.
Thank you for sharing your story, SoToLiHu. Your family has endured a lot of pain. I’m sorry that your husband devalued you. I think that is the worst case of SO-devaluing that I’ve ever heard. Thank you for being brave and sharing with us. I admire your strength and commitment to your marriage.
Best wishes!
SoToLiHu,
tl/dr
DrL may decide I’m over the line and delete the post.
My recommendation, is if you continue therapy, find a new therapist. Preferably one who’s well versed in trauma and not afraid to hold a patient accountable for their actions. If you’re not, you might want to find a therapist that you can work with on your own.
Limerence can explain a lot of behavior but it doesn’t excuse any of it. It’s hard enough to get through this kind of thing when people understand and support you. It’s even harder when your SO has his family and therapist supporting him and enabling him to evade responsibility.
Now, the disclaimer: I’m not a mental health professional so what I say is my opinion.
Limerents are limerents for a reason. One theory is limerence is a manifestation of attachment issues stemming from childhood. An SO doesn’t cause someone to be limerent anymore than a less than perfect marriage does. Cognitive dissonance is a thing and some people will go to extreme lengths to manage it. Hence, the devalution of you.
Maybe, an unhappy marriage can incline a dormant/latent limerent to look for distractions outside the marriage. A dormant limerent encounters someone with glimmer, that person becomes an LO and the latent/limerent becomes an active limerent and the LE kicks in which can lead to EAs and PAs. If you go through the LwL archives, DrL explains the dynamics and possible causes.
What your husband describes about his behavior in your original post is entirely plausible in the context of limerence. He met the right person at the right time under the right circumstances and he went down the rabbit hole. It’s a hallmark of limerence. It’s explainable but not excusable.
Now, he has some awareness. That’s good. But, he doesn’t seem willing to confront a lot of issues. That’s not good. There’s a process someone can go through to figure out things but it’s time consuming, possibly expensive, and comes with risk. Deep diving into what makes you a limerent can take someone to places that they had no idea they’d be going. Really confronting issues can alter long-standing relationships, possibly even destroying them. It can be a very scary process. As Dr. Marion Solomon contends, many people would rather learn to live their current pathology than actually change it. But, it can also be a very rewarding process.
The question is whether the limerent is willing to do what it takes. The answer says a lot about who and what they really value. There a several stories about how limerents answered that question buried in other articles. There are also stories about how SOs responded to that knowledge.
If the answer is avoiding discomfort and maintaining the status quo with his family and letting the ripples the LE caused in your marriage just die off are more important to him than his marriage and his family, he doesn’t do the work.
Once you understand his priorities, your situation may or may not improve but your decisions become more informed.
I hope things work toward your happiness.
Again, all this is just my opinion.
Thank you for your contribution. I must say he does the work, trying his best. What I said in my former post was in the past. He is NC with LO, he said he doesn’t have feelings for her currently and he doesn’t want them. He has told me that he had several LO’s during our marriage but not as intense as this one. He stopped with that therapist and we have a very good couples counsellor. Also he finally stood up for me.
That he finds it hard to talk about doesn’t mean he won’t talk about it. He tries everyday. He reads a lot about limerence. Is trying to find the root cause. Just like me it haunts him everyday he hurt me.
That’s great to hear!
“That he finds it hard to talk about doesn’t mean he won’t talk about it.”
Upon the final realization of what I had done to my wife, I was, well really still am, apprehensive to talk about it. It’s hard to revisit a place where you have to face what hurt you brought on someone. When the limerence is gone there is no blissfulness to distract you from the harm you are doing. And so you have to face the facts with a clear mind and that is not pleasant. It’s like the next day hearing your friend talk about how drunk you were last night. I totally get your husbands feeling.
Thankfully I think that we have talked it pretty much out, my wife and I. I think she is of the mind now, at least verbally, that it is in the past. Now like you I don’t know what is going on in her head if she doesn’t tell me. But whatever she may verbally want to dish out to me, even 10 years down the road; I deserve.
I want to treat my husband with love and kindness. Yes, he traumatized me and hurt me. But he is also the person who picks me up from the bathroom floor when I have a trigger, the father who does everything for our kids (that’s why that part hurt me the most), the person who hold me for whole nights in a row because I had panic attacks during the miscarriages, I was extremely sick when pregnant with our youngest. He took care for our oldest son, our dogs, me and worked full time from home. We did icsi 7 times to get our sons. I never ever had to do an appointment by myself. H He is also someone who is never received affection from his parents, never learned life is hard, never learned you’re allowed to have emotions. Then the both of us started to help LO with her abusive ex. She is in behaviour my clone. She was nice to him. They didn’t share trauma but he could save her. Therefore he needed to betray me. Something he would never do in his right mind. So his brain started to do very weird things, he was almost psychotic. He hurt me, and he hurt himself by hurting me. Saying to me “I hoped you died during your complication” actually meant he doesn’t have to be afraid I’m going to die anymore.
I hope he can feel someday although I’m hurt and traumatized, not only my him but the miscarriages. I will not blame him. I will always love him even if our marriage don’t make him. I want him to choose happiness and love. If we can’t find that with eachother, if we broke to much. So be it, as long as we can stay the good parenting team we are. But for now we’re fighting. I’ll pick him up when he’s hating himself for hurting me, he when I’m crying on the bathroom floor, holding me telling me it wasn’t my fault. (Kids never see this).
Thank you for your insights, it helps.
“Then the both of us started to help LO with her abusive ex. She is in behaviour my clone. She was nice to him. They didn’t share trauma but he could save her.”
That’s pretty much how my LE went. Single mother of two divorced from a cheating ex-husband. She was nice to me. I could save her. I could show her how a man should treat a woman. Ironically in the attempt to show her that, I was showing my wife that I didn’t know how. The rescue fantasy or as my wife calls in my “damn rescue complex” is common for a lot of men that fall into limerence. She would say “you can’t save every woman” or “you make up for every man that treats a woman wrong”. So I can certainly relate to your husband’s glimmer with her.
There’s a whole post Dr L wrote about it. It’s very interesting. When I first found the post, it all came crashing down on me as to why I was susceptible to limerence. And why she glimmered so brightly for me at the time.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-the-rescue-fantasy/
“whatever she may verbally want to dish out to me, even 10 years down the road; I deserve”
Adam, I understand what you are saying and my BF feels the same way. The reality for me anyway is that the damage to my trust and my psyche didn’t just go away when his limerence went away. At the same time, though, I don’t want to dwell on it long-term so that he feels like he’s being punished forever for the same mistake. That’s toxic for the long-term health of any relationship. At some point, I’ll need to get beyond it and I’m just not clear yet how long that will take me. So when I have my fits of anger and distrust, I try to work that out in my own head first before talking to him about it. Only if I can’t self-soothe do I then discuss it with him and he invariably takes responsibility without defensiveness. I hope for your sake that one day you’ll be able to forgive yourself. You’re so right that when the limerence goes away, the pain that’s been caused is left and it can be very hard to face.
As far as the question of whether to disclose the limerence to your partner, in my case I could always tell when there was something going on in my BF’s head and I knew from experience what it was. When I’d explicitly ask him if he was thinking about LO or if he was communicating with her or looking at her social media and he’d deny it, it was maddening to me. I knew he was — he’d show me something on his phone and the first thing in the search bar was LO. Sometimes one of his comments on her sexy Facebook posts would pop up in my feed. Or he’d open his texts and there would be one from her at the top. It was gaslighting of the highest order. He’d deny deny deny, even when I had written proof and it drove me insane. I would say that behaving that way is really damaging. If you get caught, or even if your SO has strong suspicions, own up to it forthrightly. Because it’s a lot harder to get over the betrayal if it all ultimately comes out and s/he has to think about all the times that you doubled down on your lies.
In my case, I truly wish he had just owned up to it so we could have talked about it. I was and am perfectly capable of having a reasonable, calm discussion about any of that. But I hated the blatant lies, even in the face of irrefutable evidence. Ignorance was not bliss.
“Because it’s a lot harder to get over the betrayal if it all ultimately comes out and s/he has to think about all the times that you doubled down on your lies.”
I think that this was the hardest part for my wife too. Fortunately I was of the right mind to at least not contact her outside the job. I never checked her social media until after she left the job. But whether I was consciously lying or just trying to lie to myself to justify things, in the end I was dishonest with my wife. And really dishonest with her too, pretending to be the “friend” she needed and keeping my distance, but moving the line in the sand closer and closer to her.
I had no choice upon finding this place a year ago as my wife was already suspicious so disclosure was really an attempt on my part to lessen the pain for her rather than present it as an emotional affair. Which I guess to a degree it was even if it was one sided. But that disclosure was too little too late. It was 6 months after she left the job and that was the last I saw or talked to her.
But you are absolutely right I should have came to my wife when I first felt any inappropriate feelings for her. Because my attempt to suppress and/or hide them for the sake of causing my wife pain more than royally backfired. And she was the one that paid pain in spades.
Thankfully Iwe have reached a point together that I think if I don’t relapse we are just going to let the past be the past. I work on myself so that it doesn’t happen again. And work on our marriage to make it stronger. She has made it clear she doesn’t want to split. But I am also far more harder on myself than she is on me.
Building on DrL’s managing the vulnerability…
In a simplistic view of addiction, addicts fall into two categories, pleasure seekers and escapist. Personal physiology determines whether one becomes an addict and how well the addict handles it.
Substance abuse for escapists is a mitigation technique. Psychiatrists mitigate mental health with drugs for a living. Persons with chronic pain try to escape it with drugs, legal or illegal. Depressed people escape through drugs, alcohol, sex, thrill seeking, etc. Addiction means the person has lost control of mitigating whatever. The loss of control may or may not have consequences.
I was raised by one functional alcoholic and one non-functional alcoholic. I married a functional alcoholic until one day she wasn’t.
Part of most recovery programs include a therapy component to identify and modify why they abuse substances. An addict committed to recovery will try to identify the roots of their desire to escape or engage in overly risky thrill seeking behavior. The goal is to eliminate the desire as opposed to just brute forcing avoiding the risk.
In the context of limerence, if you understand the Glimmer and ask “what about that person did I find so compelling that I went totally off the rails?” you have the basis for the next question :
“Why do I find that compelling?”
The first question is usually easy to answer. The second one can be harder. Doing something based on the findings can be really hard.
To be a limerent, there has to be a Limerent Object.
LOs fall into two broad categories, unwitting and complicit. But, both have two things in common.
They fit a limerent’s profile, i.e., Glimmer, and they provide an opportunity for the limerent to let the LO inside their heads. Depending on the limerent, it doesn’t take much to meet the limerent’s criterion of opportunity.
As for managing behavior:
Risk = Threat x Vulnerability x Consequence
If any factor is 0, there is no risk. Threat has context. A person, i.e., the limerent, has to have a Vulnerability for a person to be a Threat, i.e., an LO.
Threat x Vulnerability = Liklihood of Exploitation
Influence is proportional to access. Separate the Threat from the Vulnerability and you reduce Risk. That’s why people like coworkers, personal trainers, barristas, etc. are more problematic. More contact means more opportunity to encounter a person with Glimmer. The more intimate the contact greater the influence. The LO has more access meaning more influence on the limerent meaning greater risk.
What do Threat and Risk have to with addiction? They can drive behavior that can become addictive or feed addictive behavior.
And, all this resides in the limerent.
Limerent dynamics make sense. But, understanding it doesn’t make it any less destructive or easier to deal with.
Dear L.E.,
I meant to reply to say that I thought your addiction framing for various ailments including limerence was very helpful to me. I have commented before that it struck me for the first time ever during a period of prolonged stress.
“….(addicts can be split into) pleasure seekers and escapist. Personal physiology determines whether one becomes an addict and how well the addict handles it.
Substance abuse for escapists is a mitigation technique”
The escapism provided by limerence and my own need for validation fits this framing.
I do hope that it is a comfort to an SO to know its not about the LO at all, really.
All the best
I visit this site occasionally to try and understand more about the condition I believe my ex-husband has been in and probably still is in. At least many of the behaviors and conditions are recognizable. From the responses I read here, couples are still together, but not in my case. The ‘consensus’ divorce happened rapidly last summer.
I quickly realized that something was wrong because he was not the person who went out in the evening and came home late. I confronted him about it and he said that he didn’t love me anymore in a romantic way but more like family. He also said that he felt unhappy for the last year or so. Also, the tragic earthquake in the country where we lived at the time was a wake-up call for him that life is short and that he wanted to experience love et cetera. It was all a big shock as I didn’t see it coming. The next few weeks felt like as if I was in a bad movie.
At that time he wasn’t thinking about divorce, but from the moment he told me about his feelings, I was no longer his wife. He denied there was anyone else. I didn’t trust that and couldn’t resist looking into his cell phone. Turned out he became obsessively in love with a woman he met just a few days earlier in the cafe where we often went for coffee after dropping our daughter off at school.
That affair was not only a shock, but I was especially surprised by its bizarre childish manner. They are both in their fourties’. The excessive love bombing and the speed of the affair was mind boggling. The female communicated conflicting messages to him in the first few days. Saying that she had doubts because of him being married, but the next day she would be the first to message whether he was coming for coffee in that same café.
In the meantime, I was no longer relevant as a wife and he also had no attention for our six-year-old daughter. He would came home after he had been with her, our daughter opened the door and he would walk past her as if she was not there. He looked and behaved as if he was under the influence of a certain substance and in another reality.
What surprised me was that everything he communicated with me recently before, matters about his work, etc., now he would tell her. They would send pictures to each other they made together. Kissing on the beach, kissing in my car and a picture of them cuddling and her holding a Superman figure.
They were so obsessive about each other. The female would message things like ‘ only you and our future child matter to me’ or ‘ I wish we could just walk away, just you and me’. He in return would message things like ‘ I am so grateful that God has brought you into my life’ and he was into ecstasy over her green eyes. He told my sister that he felt the urge to go for her as she was his ‘chance in a lifetime.’
The most shocking thing was that just nine days after they met, she opened up about her desire for motherhood. From then on that became their quest, she convinced him that she was less fertile and that the gynecologist said that if she wanted a child she had to be quick. My ex, stuck in this obsessive state of infatuation for her, wanted to help her with that. He made appointments with the same gynecologist who had helped me with my daughter. A respectable brilliant doctor who they misled into helping them. They told him that they were married and that they had been trying to conceive for a long time. It was extremely embarrassing and painful to read all of this.
In the meantime they have succeeded in their quest for having a child.
From then on I knew I had to let this man go. I immediately initiated the divorce. Something he now wanted too as he was in a hurry to continue with this woman as quickly as possible. He renovated an apartment – strangely enough next door to an apartment we bought two years before- from top to bottom so they could move in together.
Our marriage, which lasted seven years, was far from perfect. There was some resentment that existed from the beginning. There was a lack of communication and intimacy ( caused by those resentments and some chronic health problems that I have accumulated over the years. But I still believe there was a foundation and we had many dreams and plans for the future.
I am in no contact with my ex ( he is in contact with our daughter but occasionally)
It has been embarrassing and affected my self-esteem. I have now moved back to my home country with my daughter and I still wake up every morning with depressive feelings and intrusive thoughts.
All of this has been an extremely traumatic experience for me ( and my daughter ) and I still have so many questions
Oh Kari75, your story is heartbreaking. I am so sorry.
This article is reserved for people like you to share their experience with a limerent SO. I want to answer any questions that I can for you, but I don’t technically belong here because I am a limerent. I will try to keep this on point.
It sounds like your husband developed limerence for the woman from the coffee shop. I suspect that you have difficulty understanding limerence. My husband doesn’t understand it either. Limerence feels like a drug. The LO feels like a drug. When your husband walked past your daughter as if he didn’t notice her, it’s because he may have been thinking about his LO. I can’t say for sure, but it is likely. I don’t want to make this about me, but I can give you an example from my experience with limerence to help you understand why your husband seemed so distant. Daydreams or thoughts about an LO triggered euphoria in me. It felt so good! It energized me. That euphoric high distracted me from my family. I remember one specific incident when I was driving with my mom; she wanted to talk, but I preferred to daydream about my LO. I told her I couldn’t focus on driving and listen at the same time. She stopped talking. I feel guilty for it now.
Maybe this isn’t helpful. I want to answer your questions, but I don’t know where to start. Is there something specific? You said that you have many questions, is there something I can answer for you?
I am so sorry that you wake up with intrusive thoughts and depressive feelings. It makes sense. You went through a difficult struggle. Gosh, I wish I could be more helpful.
There is something that I feel confident about. Your husband’s limerence probably had nothing to do with you. I can understand why it affects your self esteem, but I wish you could understand that it probably has nothing to do with you or the quality of your marriage.
I’m probably not being helpful. I wish you the best.
Hi Lovisa
Hope you’re well , and your mum is doing o.k . My L.E took a turn for the worse , but I’m getting back on track now . Be good to catch up when you have time , this place is turning into a bit of a madhouse lately lol , take care
X
Hi Jim,
It’s so good to hear from you! I’m sorry that your limerence took a turn. Let’s talk about it and catch up in the coffee house. I left you a message here…
https://livingwithlimerence.com/winter-coffeehouse/#comment-52661
Thank you for your well wishes.
Hi Lovisa, thank you for your message, all input is very helpful. Of course I don’t know 100% whether he was gripped with this phenomenon of limerence but it seems like it for the most part.
To be honest, I don’t understand it at all and the things I have read (this site is the most comprehensive) gave me more insight, but overall I don’t understand it. I’ve never experienced anything like this myself, maybe as a teenager and then briefly. Certainly not as an adult. But I have never been sensitive to addictions of any kind.
What I don’t understand are the irrational decisions he has made. First to quickly distance himself from his family, secondly the irrational decision to bring a child into the world with this woman he just met. A ‘normal’ man would run away if a woman you just met said something like that. Now I also have to say that that woman – now his wife by the way – he married her a few weeks after the divorce was finalized; she was very manipulative and seduced him in a massive way. Also quite malicious in my view by pushing him and emotionally blackmailing him to divorce. She would send him articles on divorce, the impact on children etc. She’s not his type and they are pretty much opposites. He has always been a fairly conservative thinking person. She is, to put it disrespectfully, a bit vulgar. Her profile photo on WhatsApp she was dressed in a red short dress. In terms of religion and politics they are also opposites. He idealized her with my six year old daughter saying she is so wonderful and beautiful.
Shortly after their affair he started bringing her everywhere, she would join him when he would pick up my daughter from school. Everyone was allowed to see them together.
At first he was certainly gripped by some form of mania. That could hardly be otherwise, I don’t know what his condition is now. They are married as mentioned and have a fairly dysfunctional relationship from what I can gather.
Funny that incident in the car with your mother. I have also experienced something similar. We were in the car a few weeks after the affair came out, the radio was on and he then turned on his phone and started listening to ‘their ‘ song. I knew this was their song because they often talked about it in the instant messaging conversations. I could still follow their conversations – on the lawyer’s advice – via the link on my desktop PC.
I angrily told him to turn it off because the radio was already on and he was driving.
Hello again Kari75,
Thank you for your reply. I admire that you are looking for answers. I also appreciate that you are willing to talk to a limerent. It would be understandable if you had distaste for all of us considering what your SO put you through. Thanks for giving me a chance to try to help you make sense of some of your ex husband’s behavior.
“ What I don’t understand are the irrational decisions he has made.”
Of course his decisions were irrational. His irrational decisions are the reason I am confident that you belong in our community as a former SO of a limerent. I can’t emphasize enough how drug-like limerence is. People who are rational, thinking, responsible people will do incredibly irresponsible things just like a drug addict. When I think back on my own behavior, I am embarrassed and ashamed. I will give you an example to try to explain what I mean. I love playing board games with my friends and family. While I was limerent, sometimes I couldn’t derive pleasure from playing board games. My mind would wander and I would find myself daydreaming about my LO. The euphoria that came from my daydream was so enjoyable that I would get annoyed if something interrupted my thoughts. I mean, if it was my turn during a board game, I might get annoyed with the other players or the game itself because it interrupted such a pleasant thought. I am embarrassed to admit how odd my thinking and behavior were, but I hope that it helps you understand what could have happened with your SO. My best guess is that his LO gave him such euphoric highs that he would do anything to keep her close and happy. To be honest, I was quite surprised by their quest to create a child in their forties. I am 45 and if I learned that another child would be joining my family, I would be upset. Of course I would do the right thing by loving and raising the child, but my initial reaction would be anger for sure. So when you mentioned it, I thought, “ Yep, he is drowning in limerence hormones and not thinking clearly.” I hope that helps answer your question at least a little. I think it would help if you view limerence as a drug and your ex as a drug addict.
“… she was very manipulative and seduced him in a massive way.”
That doesn’t surprise me. Unfortunately, there are narcissistic LOs. Here is an article that you might like to read.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/narcissist-los/
This one might help too.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/is-your-limerent-object-a-narcissist/
I don’t want to dismiss your husband’s accountability for his actions, but I do want to acknowledge that he may not have sought this out. A member of our community posted a dream about limerence that seems applicable here. He dreamt that he was minding his own business when someone poked a needle in his leg and shot him up with heroine. He became an addict instantly and he hadn’t even made the bad decision to try heroine. If she seduced your husband, it would have been hard for him to do the right things. He still chose to do very bad things, but it sounds like he didn’t initially seek this out. I want to give him a little grace without minimizing how destructive and selfish his behavior became. I hope that makes sense.
Your description of his LO is not impressive. She doesn’t sound like the type of woman that a nice man would pursue. I share your distaste of her, but unfortunately, she is the mother of your daughter’s half-sibling and you are stuck with her. Ugh. I assume that you have no hard feelings towards the new baby. I have sympathy for you because that is a difficult situation.
Music is very powerful for the Limerent. I’m not surprised that he wanted to listen to “their song” even though there was already something playing on the radio. I am so sorry that you had to endure stuff like that.
Well, the good news is that the euphoria will wear off. We can’t predict what their marriage and life will be like going forward, but it won’t be as exciting as it was.
Can we address your situation, too? There is something that I think could help you climb out of your depression and intrusive thoughts. Will you look into Marriage Helper and “working on PIES?” I know that you don’t intend to have a marriage with your ex, but I think you’ll like Marriage Helper. They have a lot of YouTube videos that might give you some answers and you might learn some tools. I’d like to see you take care of yourself when you are ready.
And if you just want to vent about the insanity of it all, I am ready to listen.
Best wishes!
Kari75,
I’m sorry that you’re going through this and that he’s treated you and your daughter so poorly.
His limerence will end. It always does. Sometimes when it does, the limerent will look at the LO and wonder: What was I thinking?
Of course, that’s his issue and his problem, but I hope he will eventually get some perspective about his behavior, for your daughter’s sake.
Hi Kari75, I hope you are well. A podcast came up in my YouTube feed and I thought of you while I was listening to it. I wonder if it would be therapeutic for you. The podcast is called Diary of a CEO and the guest was discussing his experience when he learned that his wife cheated on him and became pregnant by her affair partner. This man’s situation is not the same as yours, but similar. I wonder if you would find comfort hearing about another person’s struggle that is similar to yours. Anyway, I wanted to share it just in case it could lift your burden even a little. I’ll link it, but sometimes external links don’t work so the name of that episode is below.
It’s called, “She cheated on me and that’s not all – Dr. Aria…”
-The Diary of a CEO
https://youtu.be/foScUA0qbNs?si=XBGwtqntOBO5L1h6
Best wishes!
I write as a devastated SO, it’s two years and four months since D-DAY…
My husband DISCLOSED to LO first..he says a few days before me..”He knew he had to tell me” – YES, he’d already spilt his guts to HER!…He said “She was a shocked as you are” he said (I know this is not true)
Her ‘fight’ after disclosure showed her true colours – the gauntlet was down, she was up for a battle for my husband – denigrating my character, lying and playing the VICTIM as always..talking of her “Love karma” how she was “Fantasised, admired, and longed for, but not enough to be brought into reality”…”Oh well, I’ll just get on with evicting my suicidal, single mother of three tenant, before she spills blood on my grandmama’s carpet, whilst of course socially rehousing her first!”…WTAF..
She went on about other women’s partners, fantasising about them, talking about being with them..! I questioned her on this, saying “but they’re with so n so” and she was “so what”….
Like another betrayed here says, it felt like a conspiracy, it was certainly a betrayal – a double one at that, the LO, was meant to be a friend of mine. My husband called her his ONLY FRIEND, post D-DAY! BTW – he has a few very good male friends.
They say “sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me” This does not apply to me – The pain I’ve felt from the betrayal, from the one person I thought had my back, my husband, has nearly destroyed me, our marriage and had a huge knock on effect on our lives..me more than my husband. I’ve read everything I could find trying to make sense of everything – on EA/PA’s, L.E’s, attachment styles, read books, blogs/websites like LWL (Shout out to “Linda & Doug – Emotional affair.org) watched podcasts, researched narcissism, attachment styles and learnt from Esther Perel and The Gottman’s, and read Shirley Glass, the author of “Not Just Friends, how to regain your sanity after infidelity” (or similar title)
I’m currently having hypnotherapy sessions, to try to alleviate my rumination, obsessive thoughts and to move on in my mind, get my life back, get out of paralysis/depression..I have cried, shouted, screamed, had panic attacks, flashbacks, flooding and everything else.
This so called friend (of mine initially) played the “Damsel in Distress” whilst my husband had taken the other starring role as “Knight in shining armour”
Having taken this poor excuse for a friend ‘under my wing’ and consequently my husband did too …He said he thought of her “as a friend”, “one of the tribe”….he also said “I was drawn to her throughout the year”! Cue mad detective SO looking at every phone record, email, for a year or so ..he also said “she got under my skin”, “I was month’s behind you” (In my realisation that she was an energy vampire, a forever victim, narcissistic, Machiavellian by her own admission!, a master manipulator and treacherous enemy in the camp – NOT a FRIEND, EVER!) and to create BOUNDARIES, which were never in place..she didn’t like boundaries – show a narcissist a boundary and they’ll break it.
Ever the victim, and unbeknownst to me (although the signs were obvious and I made excuses for her and ignored massive RED FLAGS) this so-called friend had already ‘discarded’ and ‘devalued’ me – both to my face, in writing (emails) and moved her ‘NARCISSTIC SUPPLY’ to my husband…her contact with me became minimal, cursory..She was always busy doing an online course, astrology, dancing, and whatever else…festivals, holidays etc – She told me her schedule, which never included me..although I’d invited her to stuff, but she was mysteriously busy, all the time, having been omnipresent in our lives, then absent..I think I know why now…. all part of her ‘mate/spouse poaching’ game ..to be mysteriously absent..it worked with my husband, and others asked after her and her whereabouts – she was ‘missed’…not by me I have to say, but I still looked to invite her (felt sorry for her) and include her in stuff, and she always declined…I am a ‘people pleaser’ like my husband – but to a lesser extent – everyone knows “what a big heart” my husband has, her included – she used and abused us..because she could..
A bit of background at the time ;
I was dealing with my estranged mum at the time, who my whole family was estranged from – I hadn’t seen or spoken to her in over three years – and suddenly I was thrust back into her life as she was in earlyish stages of dementia I now know – I was getting calls about her falling in the street, falling downstairs, stealing neighbours milk at 5am, wandering the streets, and the ensuing appointments for hospitals, consultants, scans, doctors, social workers, carers, hospital stays – this was a distressing situation to say the least..horrific in fact, if anyone here has dealt with anyone with dementia, you’ll know how distressing it is….but EVERYONE knew that my relationship with my mother was strained, to say the least, and now I was the only member of the family to help..
My husband’s son was living with us, along with my 83 year old dad, during Covid, I had a couple of silly arguments with my husband’s 23 year old son – I had a suspect breast lump, my dad with bad health, my step son with Covid and acting entitled and doing what he wanted, my fears for my dad, my mother in the background – culminated in me losing it and telling his son to move out, back to his aunties from where he was staying before.. I then backed down and apologised, but he still left – this no doubt affected my husband and his view of me..although he’d said “sorry you had to go through this” “Either he has to leave or I will”…my husband’s style is avoidant I think..
My husband’s ex wife had got arrested for being under suspicion of poisoning her second husband! My dad dealing with cancer and a load of other stressful things like needing transfusions for blood during Covid – There was a lot of stress going on.. this was all in the lead up to the LE..You couldn’t write this stuff – to say there was stress going on was obvious – but it seems this sort of thing happens in ‘happy marriages’ too?!
After D-DAY I demanded and was given, full access to my husband’s phone by him, emails, social media etc..I found ‘evidence’ such as ;
The LO, my so-called friend, copying him in on an email about wanting to get her lawn mowed on a neighbourhood app (why, I think it was for her ‘safety’!) – she put a request out on a neighbourhood app, looking for someone to do this – surprised she didn’t ask him but this was early in spring – as she’d already got him to fix her washing machine, dishwasher facia, help her with whatever in the latter part of the year, near D-DAY – behind my back – even though in the past, I’d actually asked my husband to go and help her – what an absolute mug and trusting friend and wife I was..lots of little ‘likes’ and ‘loves’ on FB – drip drip Dopamine for my husband’s posts..
Her inviting him, not ME, to meet her for “drinks with her friends” by email – BTW she didn’t “have friends of note” she said, other than me (and my husband), just one or two other people in her life, apart from a very nice woman I also knew and some random, much older, single man who lived miles away, she said we were her only friends..!
He has referred to the whole LE as “something and nothing”, “a load of boll**s”, “just a fantasy”, “a load of shit” and similar…in other words downplaying the whole devastating episode, but it hasn’t felt that way to me..
I too, have had waking thoughts, daily for over two years, of his words that come to haunt me, the way he disclosed and where he did it really added to my trauma – it was totally out of the blue for me, although there had been things I’d picked up on, and questioned him about – there was no actual response or the response I received satisfied me..and I was pretty distracted and stressed with stuff going on..
He was distant, not his usual self, I kept asking him “am I like your ex?” – because he told me he ‘hid’ from his ex, doing jobs around the house – when their relationship was in the gutter..he kept saying no, I wasn’t anything like his his ex, but remained distant…I said to him after we’d done a meditation in bed, that spoke of ‘love for absent friends’ “all she wants is a hug, (the LO) and we’re not even doing that!” NOTHING..I feel I did make ‘bids for connection’ …but intimacy was not present between us – he had lost some teeth and had to have a denture fitted, we were not kissing, or hugging, but there was some perfunctory sex from time to time..
The so called friend (The LO) in question is the victim type, she was forever bemoaning her single status, her childless status, how beautiful, intelligent, sexy and desirable she was – “oh why I haven’t got a partner or a kid, my sister has got four and my brother has got two, and they both have partners, oh why not me!” – both her siblings married and with kids – her the eldest with none.
“Oh my sister has been parading her kids in front of me” – On Zoom, during lockdown, her nieces and nephews were in L.A. so this was the only way to see them, but she saw it as her sister taunting her with her kids..her very own nieces and nephews – Jealousy a big thing with the LO in question.
She actually moaned that “her skin hurt, from not being touched!”, “Oh I’ve just had a full body massage, and now I’m going home with no-one to touch me!”
How she wailed, cried and sobbed (I had her on speaker phone, my husband was there listening) about how she was such a great citizen, volunteering to administer the Covid jab – and how they asked her if she was pregnant (there was NO way she told them -no partner, sex etc) and then made her do a pregnancy test, as she would have to take the jab – “Even though I told them there is no way I could be pregnant, they MADE me, SOB, take a pregnancy test, SOB, WAIL, BOO” – IT the LO was pathetic…This was one of the things that made my husband “Feel sorry for the bit**!” he said…yet I’d heard and he had, these AD NAUSEAM protestations of being single, childless, lonely..blah for years ..
I had included this poor excuse for the ‘sisterhood’ in everything we did, she was invited to dinner at our house, out to concerts, comedy nights, clubs, we had a birthday party for her in our house “as her flat didn’t have the room for guests because she had a baby grand piano in her living room!” – She couldn’t play the piano by the way, or didn’t play that well..Although we ‘endured’ listening to her play to us over WhatsApp Video during lockdown – “would we mind if she played to us” – in our bedroom – whilst we tidied a few things up..
Once she went to a train station concourse, to play the piano there – a guy asked if he could cut in and play, she said yes – the guy was brilliant apparently and she called him “a c***” as he played better than her! Her ‘humour’ at the expense of others – at the Covid jab centre a lady asked “are the needles clean” a reasonable if not paranoid question, the LO replied, “Nah, we use the heroin addict’s ones!” – talk about relax the person having an experimental jab…to another who asked “can I have the Pfizer now I’ve had the Moderna?” ..”Nah, we don’t do cocktails on the NHS” – how zany and funny the LO always was at others expense..
The arrangements for her birthday party at our house emailed two weeks and a week before the event – saying how her “wonderful friends, are having a birthday party for me” so “we don’t have to rub shoulders with the dubiously educated morons out there, the great unwashed”!!! “This isn’t an email about what’s —- doing for her birthday” but then proceeding to put the whole schedule of her birthday, not just for the party in the evening, but her ‘daytime’ schedule, of swim in a pond, visit the ‘Shabby Cafe’, she cried and wailed that her friends weren’t there on the day, whilst I traipsed after her like a hungry puppy..Where she was so rude to the people at the cafe as they didn’t have hot chocolate for her, where she cried to her mum, her mum’s partner, myself and another friend who’d gone for her daytime birthday crap, that “nobody came”..! We were invisible, insignificant ..
She’d virtually been in our bedroom, ‘playing’ her piano, but really was included in so many social events, invited into our house and also manipulated holding ‘medicine ceremonies’ at my husband’s land, she also managed to have a ceremony to have her dead cat buried there..oh the drama on the day – this was a situation she also manipulated, and something I wasn’t comfortable with at the time – she’d emailed both myself and my husband to ask us if we “could help her dig a hole in HER garden, to bury her cat as she LOVED it there” – I of course sent sympathy and said of course we would help her, but then she said to me “Oh, but what if I move” – knowing full well that my husband had just bought a plot of land – where the previous owner was actually already buried, so what more trouble would a dead cat be on several acres of land! I looked at her and uncomfortably suggested she could bury it at the land maybe, I’d ask my husband..and it was done, with full ceremony and fake tears!
On D-DAY my husband told me at the land where we married, yards from the spot (three years previously) “Sorry, but here’s a curveball for you, I LOVE —-, I MISS HER, SHE NEEDS LOOKING AFTER, WHY DON’T YOU INCLUDE HER!” – to say time stood still and that I was shocked, devastated, angry, in disbelief and every other emotion and feeling you could think of, is an understatement – he then had to clarify which female it was as we know two with the same name, one who remains a friend..
That night was the worst night of my life, and totally pulled everything from under me..as the night unfolded I contacted her and left her several messages telling her what I thought, and asking her what the hell was going on – she replied with “sorry about this situation, shall I come for a chat tomorrow after my swim” I said I hoped she DROWNED and could take my husband with her! – in the meantime my husband was messaging her with “I’ve just vomited my emotions on the table, so n so, n so n so are all blown away, I’m alone if you want to talk” – so he’d gone to comfort her, whilst I was left with our friend who’d ‘married’ us at the land 3 or so years before – the wedding she was a guest at..
My husband was angry, defensive and protective of himself and her in the first few days and months following, even a year – he actually had the cheek to shout at me “do you trust me?” two weeks after D-DAY, when he was taking my mother to a dementia club..
He told me the “situation with your mother made you cold”, he also said I had ‘sneered’ at him, but later said that this was a moment when I was at my mum’s with him, whilst she said to me “you know you were meant to be aborted, your father wanted you aborted, he took me to the clinic!” – whilst defecating in front of me, laughing and holding her poo – highly distressing is what my ‘mother’s situation’ was and still is..”why did you marry him”, “is that the best you could do”…this was all in the year of my husband being “drawn to” the LO…my mother actually said post D-DAY, although she knew nothing and had dementia “Is he seeing another woman, he’s at the field a lot”!…
I told the LO this, amidst so much more – two weeks after D-DAY – during one of my many ‘interrogations’ he said to me “John says I should talk to (LO) and let you know I’m doing that”….this was one night just before we were going to bed – BTW since D-DAY – I could not sleep as I went over and over, WHY would our male friend, who married us three years before, tell my husband he should speak to the LO and let me know he was doing that! I woke at 6 am or so and messaged my husband’s (our) friend – he was gracious and sweet, apologetic, but said he couldn’t say why and I should speak to my husband..that’s when he admitted he’d said to our friend “Oh why do I want to fu** her SO MUCH?”!!!!!!!! He said he said it in anger..or he was angry he felt this or when he said this..This was salt in my wounds to say the least…I told him he’d better leave – he went to ‘think’ and ‘decide’ at the plot of land…
The desire to f**k her so much was incongruent to his declaration of love for the LO and wanting to protect or look after her, on the night of D-DAY, I’d screamed that he should go and have sex with her – release himself on her chest or similar.. he said “oh it’s not like that, she’ll have to go away” as if he couldn’t keep away otherwise, BTW, she was planning to go travelling after her cat died, to go to Central America and take Ayahuasca for the umpteenth time…my husband knew she was going travelling as I’d found a note during my detective work, of where she was going..he said it was “something of note” to write down..
Our friend, who I thought more mature, created a WA group entitled “I love you all” with the LO, my husband and I, and himself in it – he said he’d delete it once we’d all commented.. what a great intervention, NOT.. he has since seen the light and dropped the LO’s ‘friendship’ eventually…she kept asking him about us, she’d seen photos of us on FB having fun, she started asking him to do things for her…so he dropped her, something that two of my girlfriends did immediately post D-DAY..and my husband eventually saw the light, or her in a true light – not a Limerent, FLAWLESS glow..
When she was confronted about it by one of our mutual girlfriends (that I’d introduced her to) – my friend said to her “You really hurt —-” she responded with “I had some sad and stressful things in my life, it was all her husband’s fault” NOTHING about my distress, only “I’m sad I’m not their friends anymore” – She STONEWALLED me, contacted my friends, my husband but never me – she wrote to my husband – AFTER he told her “it wasn’t happening between them” and “I STILL love my wife” ;
“I know that as you two are both married (yes to each other you MORON) that I am the one left out in the cold, and I don’t expect anyone to care about me, but for the record, I don’t feel great about this situation and am going away tomorrow without any balm on my wound”…”I appreciate it’s difficult for you to get away, but can’t you say you need to get some petrol”! “I watched my parent’s terrible marriage”
“If you are being controlled, supervised, surveilled and having tabs kept on you, is this what you want for your life?”!!! “I married —–, because we loved each other, and because he needed a passport”!!!! “Other than that, marriage holds zero appeal to me”!!!!!!! “I want to talk to you before I leave tomorrow”! – this was Christmas Eve, that I’d discovered her email..ME, ME, ME…HER WOUND, her accusations of my control and surveillance! – I TRUSTED the LO, she was INCLUDED in nearly every facet of our lives, like a fool, I ALLOWED, even ENCOURAGED her to go away with my husband and our other male friend on a men’s shooting in the woods game..WHAT A FOOL, a TRUSTING one at that – and she was the controlling, planning, mate poaching and a narcissistic, machiavellian type at that..
It hurts SO much that my husband put this person on a pedestal above me, he also started to devalue me, our history, our future – he knew what she had been like, yet he was under a spell..he said it started as a fantasy of a threesome, he said he visited her three times, during one month in October, he went there to ask her if “she found him attractive” he told her “he had strong feelings for her” apparently he asked for a threesome, this is only after he must have intimated strongly that he wanted SEX, I believe ONE on ONE, as she apparently said “not behind her back” – gauntlet down (in other words, let her know and we’re on!) – LE unconsummated, but declared, he then said he asked “what about a threesome” and she said NO! But she was “open to explore!” with him – just him, let me know first, is how I took it to mean.!
After D-DAY and my persistent contact to her, to get answers, and her blocking me, unblocking me, but basically stonewalling me, she said to my husband “I didn’t f*** you because of my relationship with —-, and now she is squishing me underfoot!” I had created a boundary or ten, I told her to STAY AWAY, leave us alone, let us work through a crisis, saving our relationship of ten years or so, marriage of three years…and she continued to contact – it all culminated in a bit of a showdown – I decided to CONFRONT her the LO as I’d had enough of being held at arms length..
I went to her flat, knocked on the door, she opened it, half smiling, looking nervous, red in the face, she motioned to hug me, I stepped back in case I hit her..I told her I didn’t care if she “had any balm on her wound”! to STAY away from me, my husband and the land where her cat was buried.. our LIVES.! This was FIVE months after D-DAY – she wrote to my husband saying “I don’t know if you are aware, —– came around, to tell me amongst other things, to stay away from the land, and my cat, and seeing as my cat is buried there, and I’m banned from the land, I can’t see any other way forward, apart from you digging her up, and taking her to one of these two cremation places, I’ll pay for the cremation of course, but you need to dig her up and take her, will leave it up to you as you will be driving her there, as it was YOUR lovely idea to bury my cat at YOUR land, I thought how lovely, how could I refuse, what lovely friends I have i thought, we’ll be friends FOREVER, you guys were like FAMILY to me, kind regards, unsigned!!!!! WHAT!!!!!! Ha ha ha ha ha – such an interesting idea of friends and family..
This became the best closure ever, shame it was five months down the line – but we followed out her request, but returned her dead cat in a bag to her garden cupboard for her to deal with as the cat “Loved it there, in her garden”! Why ever did she want to bury her cat at the land.. to manipulate, to control, to have a forever connection with us and the land..all part of her games that she said she didn’t play – she played with my heart, my husband, our relationship – just like a cat with a mouse – cruel, selfish, without emotion, grandiose, victim like, and an utter fake friend – the whole thing has made me quite distrusting of others, not least other women, especially single, desperate ones..
An email was sent in response to her email 5 month post day, no emotion, matter of fact, unlike all my emotional pleading before it (BTW my husband was more or less NC after two weeks of disclosure, I actually said it was okay to her and to him to message each other, until I saw the light) – it read ;
“Yes, I know —– came around, she told me. Your cat has been returned to your cupboard in your garden. It was a mistake to have said we could ever move forward together (he’d previously said he’d hoped “we could all move forward together in time!”)
Neither I, nor —– (me) want any further contact with you… And we haven’t heard from the LO since, although she contacted our mutual male friend, asking for information, asking him to do things for her….he dropped her also…but regardless of all of this I am STILL suffering waking thoughts of his declaration that devastating night of D-DAY – I’ve checked to see that I’m not mad, I find many others the same, struggling, sad and depressed..but I think we have both realised we need to WORK on our marriage, communication, boundaries, needs etc…just the worst way to find out – apologies for ramblings, muddled story, but if this gets published I hope it helps others, look up LIMERENCE, remember LOVE is a VERB, not a feeling, relationships need HONESTY, COMMUNICATION, and RECIPROCITY AND RESPECT..LIMERENCE is your SO’s BRAIN on DRUGS…Best wishes to all concerned X
Esther Perez is a fraud. Show me the peer reviewed research. Oh, wait…
https://www.chumplady.com/archives/#search/q=Esther%20Perel&c=eyJ2IjoiNC4wIiwidGl0bGUiOiIiLCJncm91cFR5cGUiOiJ0b3AtcmVzdWx0cyIsImFycmFuZ2VtZW50IjoiY29udGV4dC13aXRob3V0LXNlYXJjaCIsIm9taXRTZWFyY2hDb250ZXh0Ijp0cnVlfQ%3D%3D
That should be Perel. Damn you autocorrect!
I was limerent about 12 years before my husband entered his LE. I had an EA with a co-worker for about a year. He wanted it to be physical and that woke me up. I pulled back, and he moved out of state 2 months later. It took 2 years to get over it, but, I did. My LO means nothing to me.
Through my limerence, my husband existed, but, it felt like he was barely in my peripheral vision. I loved him and did not want to lose my marriage. I just did not love myself and really craved that external validation from my LO. I downplayed the affair. My husband did not know for years how much time I spent hanging out with the LO as he was busy with his own hobby. Twelve years later, that same hobby introduced him to many women. One woman made a pass at him, but, he was not ready to make that plunge until a few months later, after the loss of his favorite relative, did he meet his LO. I knew what he was going through, but, he interpreted it as love. She was emotionally dysregulated with a personality disorder that he could not handle. The affair was super off and on which contributed to both of them trauma bonding. I hung on for 2 years, being kind, loving, and understanding. I gave him space to mourn when he ended the A because I knew what it was like to have to mourn in private. He is still limerent, perhaps it is those low or stressful times that cause him to want to reach out to her. He blames me 100% for the affair. He needed a home to live in, so he remained here until he received an inheritance, and just like that, he moved out. As he puts it, “He just wants to be alone to find himself.” I was more than okay to comply as I had already filed for divorce. Limerence may have shown him what he wants in life. His limerence also showed me what I want in mine. I was more than happy to release him and bring peace back into my home for me and my young boys. Standing for my marriage was one of the hardest things I have ever done, but, boy did I learn and heal so much about myself. I did not waste my pain and heartbreak. Limerence is a beast.
Met my wife 27 years ago, married for the last 23. The last couple of years were very stressful, plagued with strife and loss in my extended family, and it wore me down heavily. Even so, our marriage seemed fairly stable, and we still carved out private time to connect with each other (although we both wanted more.) The emotional affair was poorly concealed and landed like a ton of bricks only a couple of weeks after it began; all of a sudden she loved me but wasn’t in love with me, and no longer professed any loyalty to me.
Our teenage daughter found out soon after it evolved into a physical affair. After only eight weeks my wife said she would leave me for her LO no matter the consequences to our marriage or her relationship with our daughter. She even said she would leave me because my mom never left my dad as she should have – as if the sins of the father were to be visited upon the son. She does nothing with me and little more with our daughter, instead spending most of her free time and almost every weekend with the LO.
It’s now been six months and while she still hasn’t left, there’s no sign of letting up. She told me on our wedding anniversary that she was in love with him, and shows no interest in breaking it off. She admits to serious emotional distress and guilt for going outside the marriage, and has said she doesn’t know how to forgive herself, much less seek forgiveness elsewhere. I have told her I forgive her, and she just can’t wrap her head around it; she told me she would never kiss me again if I did to her what she’s done to me. She said she would retch if I said to her what she said to me. She says she still loves me and wants me in her life, but seems compelled to do anything to push me away. It hurts every time she leaves to be with him, and there seems to be precious little I can do to draw her back.
Hello Jay – I’m very sorry to read about your difficult situation. I don’t think I’ve read your posts before, so welcome to this group. I’m relatively new here myself.
I don’t understand why your wife is still living with you if she’s having this affair six months later. Unless you have an open marriage (which it sounds like you don’t), she needs to make a decision. It is extremely unfair to you to be married to a woman who is having it all her way.
It is one thing if a spouse has limerent feeling for another and the married couple deal with it. That’s what my husband and I have done (are still doing) and other people on this blog. But your wife is not partnering with you in dealing with the limerence.
I don’t know that there is anything you can do to draw her back. You can’t make her love you. It seems that she has chosen to be with her LO and she needs to be graceful enough to leave your home.
You sound like an extraordinarily patient person. Your wife has the freedom to be with the person she wants to be with. But she doesn’t have the freedom to continue living in your home and breaking your heart. You need to tell her that she needs to decide.
Yes, it will break your heart if she leaves. But isn’t your heart breaking now?
Thank you for your feedback. I actually joined Marriage Helper and attended their solo spouse workshop last weekend. They were encouraged by the specifics of my situation, and strongly recommended bringing her to a couples workshop. Coincidentally, an acquaintance went to the couples workshop the same weekend as mine, and by the end of the weekend his wife shelved the divorce to work on reconciliation. He also said most couples were married as long as we’ve been, and they weren’t the only ones who reconciled either. So I’m keeping my fingers crossed!
That’s remarkable, Jay! I do hope you keep us posted. 💙
We’re both children of divorce, and we pledged never to put our own kids through that. We wrote our vows very carefully to represent those specific values and beliefs we were fully committed to. And we have faithfully upheld them all.
My wife has always been the most honest and principled person I’ve ever met. That did not change when I worked in the Intel field either. So it’s simply impossible that she consciously chose to renounce everything she always professed to believe and never failed to stand for.
As for me, I was recently on the verge of giving up. I gave her my ring and told her to give it to the man she wants. I could have dated, I could have scored, I could have divorced, but I’m just not wired that way. I took back my ring, and I plan to never take it off again. And when my wife finally comes to her senses, I plan to be there to help her, and us.
Holy cow, Jay! I am amazed at your strength.
Jay
Me being the limerent, my wife took her ring off when I was deep in the middle of it. This October will be 25 years together. She has never taken her ring off. I wore it on a rope chain around my neck until she wanted it back.
I also brought up separation on more than one occasion to my wife. We are working on it together now. I finally decided that I needed to rededicate my life to our marriage. She has been gracious enough to let me. It’s been two years of NC since the last time I saw her. There have been ups and downs but my wife continues to be gracious to me as I work through it all. Limerence is quite the devil himself. I am sorry, as a limerent, that this has happened to your family. I know because I put mine through it myself.
Forgot to address in my initial response:
We’ve talked about separating, but she says we can’t afford one of us moving out. As the one who handles the finances, I tell her that we can if we make some sacrifices, it just comes down to priorities.
But then who moves out? I said it should be her, since she’s the one destroying the family; she says since both of names are on the deed, she has as much right to the house as I do. She’s not wrong. At least she doesn’t invite the LO over.
I agree she should be the one to leave. Just don’t know how to do that. Legally I can’t throw her out, and I don’t want the LO to capitalize. Also, our daughter is still at home, she’s sympathetic so far but I don’t want to rattle her cage.
And I’m fairly certain that once I’ve boxed her things and left them on the porch, it’s over for good. I’m not quite ready to say I’ve tried everything yet.
Hi Jay,
If this new relationship is limerence (rather than love) for your wife, the truth is that it often wears off after a honeymoon period. As what you would prefer, it seems, is to forgive her and not break up the family home, waiting may be a good strategy. I don’t know many who could do this, but it seems that is what you want?
You mentioned Marriage Helper being a possibility – have you mentioned this to your SO and is she receptive? Also, I am not sure what knowledge Marriage Helper counsellors have for partnerships in which one of the partners is limerent. Have you spoken to your SO about limerence? Have you spoken with anyone at Marriage Helper about it? It seems as though limerence is a black spot for counsellors and many on this forum have mentioned that it is common enough to experience blank stares when asking therapists about it.
I am sorry not to be of much use, your situation is heartbreaking, honestly.
Jay,
Have you consulted an attorney about your options? Depending on your jurisdiction, you may have more leverage than you think.
Does your employer have an EAP? If so, you could get a free legal consultation.
When my wife and I were having problems for reasons that had nothing to do with infidelity, I paid $600 to talk to one of the best divorce sharks in town.
If she didn’t take me seriously at breakfast, she did after lunch.
That was over 10 years ago and we’re still together. It was money well spent.
Do you still have a clearance? If you do, you might want to give your Personnel Security Office a heads up. It’s better to get in front of things.
Welcome Jay! I wish we weren’t meeting under such difficult circumstances. Your situation is heavy. I don’t know how you are able to carry this burden. I’m wrestling with my own feelings of anger towards your wife and I am just a stranger on the internet. I can’t imagine how hard this is for you.
It sounds like you have the desire and the strength to stand for your marriage. Wow, I am impressed with your determination. I think you should contact Marriage Helper. If anyone can get you through this, they can. Here is a link to their website
https://marriagehelper.com/.
Jay, I think your wife might be experiencing her first Limerent Episode. The first time feels like a supernatural experience. She might think that she is destined to be with her LO. I wish she could understand that the intense feelings will pass. As Joe Beam from Marriage Helper says, “Emotions change.” Her emotions will change, but it could take a while.
Best wishes!
Louisa,
” Her emotions will change, but it could take a while.”
Not necessarily.
Go back through the blogs and read Lee’s posts. Her SO remained unrepentant. She kicked him to the curb.
I’m not a big fan of ultimatums but they have their uses. But, an ultimatum that you don’t intend to follow through on is a bluff.
If you go the ultimatum route, you need to have your ducks lined up in advance.
But, I’m of the school of if someone thinks they’ll be happier somewhere else with someone else, that’s where they should be.
I hope whatever happens, it leads to everyone’s happiness.
Lately I’ve asked my wife what she wants from me, what she wants me to do. Tonight I asked her why she’s putting everyone through this. She said it was a big question, but that it was because of how it makes her feel.
She has always had the biggest heart in the world. To me it speaks volumes for her to confess such a thing in seeming disregard of the damage and pain she is leaving in her wake.
Jay, I’ve been thinking about your situation all day. I’m trying to understand your wife’s mindset. It sounds like she had a personality change when this LE started. It sounds like she went from unselfishly taking care of her family to selfishly doing things that “feel good.” Does that sound right? I wonder what tipped her over the edge.
What does she want? She said that the two of you can’t afford to separate so where does she think this situation is going? Does she intend to leave you for her LO?
That brings me to my next question. Do you know anything about her LO?
My heart goes out to you. Please keep posting. Your story is a great wake up call for limerents. Also, I hope you’ll find support in our community.
May God bless you and your family.
Lovisa, I covered some of this in another reply. Her personality is essentially unchanged, but her values and priorities are all jacked up.
I went to the ER with a respiratory infection a few weeks ago, and I never never get sick. They ran tests and gave me inhalers, but she stayed with her LO and just texted to see if I was OK. Not in a million years would she do that.
I know quite a bit about the LO. Early on I thought he was just making a play, so I checked out his digital footprint online. My wife has actually told me a few things herself. As a man, I found him contemptible for indulging a married woman, but as a former military officer, he knows there is no greater sin than shtupping your battle buddy’s wife. So then I regarded him as beneath contempt.
However, it’s possible my wife is not being wholly honest with him either. I actually contacted him very early and I don’t think he knew she was married; he was actually quite hasty to break it off. (How it picked back up is another story.) And when my wife recently told me she loved him, she couldn’t definitively say whether he felt the same way.
I’ve thought about calling him again and telling him to marry her or leave her alone. The woman I knew would have the decency to move out, but this woman refuses. I sometimes wish I could throw her out, but both our names are on the deed.
I guess I could cancel her credit cards and lock our bank accounts and see what happens. But she has a thing about feeling controlled by anyone, so it would definitely be considered a push.
Jay, I think you would be wise to avoid push behaviors. It sounds like you are working on your P.I.E.S. which is awesome! That is the approach my husband took when I became limerent, too. It was very effective for us. My husband was loving and patient. He was also determined not to lose me which I appreciate very much. I did not have an affair so our situations are different in that way.
I am impressed with your willingness to help your wife through this addiction. Is she willing to talk to anyone at Marriage Helper?
You are incredible!
I see that my post was just minutes after yours. I’ll check back in a few minutes to see if you’re still here. I need to get back to my chores. We have a bee swarm in our chimney. It has been quite an adventure! There is a man on my roof with a vacuum going at the bees. I am in my living room vacuuming the bees as they come out of the fireplace. They settled down a bit, but I was vacuuming up 6 bees per minute. It’s crazy! In the time that I typed these messages, there are approximately 100 bees in my living room. They’ve settled down a lot, thank goodness. I want to go running, but I don’t want to return home to stung pets and stung kids and a room full of bees.
I see that you haven’t checked back, Jay, but I want to update you about my bees. My SO came home and took over bee-control in the living room while I went running. It felt great! I ran just over 4 miles at a 10:30/mile pace. My virtual coach calls that my “easy pace” but I think it’s a little challenging. I mean I could do it for maybe a half marathon, but probably not a full marathon. Hmmmm, maybe if I felt competitive I could do it for a full marathon. I don’t know. I’m not fast, but I love running! The bee guy is pretty sure that he got the queen so he will start a new colony. The bees have settled down tonight, but they will probably start up again tomorrow. My vacuum is full of a sticky gooey substance that my SO is trying to clean out. This bee swarm has been quite an adventure! They latched onto our chimney yesterday and we’ve been learning a lot about bees ever since. I kind of want my own colony now (just not in my chimney or living room).
Anyway, I hope you have a lovely evening!
I had both a PA and LO last year (still going strong with the LO -unfortunately/fortunately!)… regardless I never treated my SO and two young adult sons like your wife is treating you and your daughter. She has nothing but disrespect and disregard and I’m not sure this will stop. I feel lonely, empty and wrapped up in euphoria of limerence but I don’t forget how amazing these people are in my life. It’s not their fault. It was always my weakness. Your wife must have been hiding her desires for a long time. Maybe she was trying to hold it together for optics and for financial concerns. I have to admit finances are a part of this too (although I would now be fine if we separated… but life is so much easier if we don’t). I’m not walking in her shoes completely but she’s a lot more “settled” with this situation than I ever got. I wouldn’t want to stay with her if I were you. I’m not sure she’s coming back…
SJ, I haven’t followed your story closely, sorry if you’ve already answered this but does your SO know about the PA?
I agree that Jay’s SO is behaving very disrespectfully. I can’t figure out how she rationalizes it to herself. This is so extreme that I wonder if she had a head injury or something that could explain why her personality changed so drastically. I guess she could be addicted to the limerence euphoria and her personality changes could be similar to what a drug addict goes through. I don’t know.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
I agree with miss Lovisa about the highly altered state of mind that Jay’s SO seems to be in. I was listening to a radio phone in about women who were in this state and giving crazy amounts of money to men they met online who were actually pretending to be other people. One was pretending to be a pop star who had an online EA with a woman, she booked a one way flight and withdrew all her savings to run off to meet this ghost.
Her husband stood by her and she did come to her senses.
As a female, I do think certain triggers, hormones and all the neuro chemistry DrL speaks about plays a huge part in women of a certain age going a bit mad for a new (often younger) man after years of happy marriage and loyalty. Jays SO must question this herself now or soon ( I would hope) or maybe she truly believes it’s ‘twin flames’ .
Jay, maybe good to search ‘twin flames’ here on the DrL blog, to help inform you if you have that conversation with your SO. Also these posts I thought maybe helpful if you haven’t read them :-
https://livingwithlimerence.com/guest-post-on-the-neuroscience-of-affair-fog/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/case-study-should-i-wait-for-my-limerent-husband-to-come-to-his-senses/
Very best wishes
She has said she had been questioning for several years. There was a period where I hit a lot of speed bumps at work and in life, and my confidence took a real beating.
But in the last four years, things with my parents and siblings went Jerry Springer and it broke everything.
Even so, she’s conceded things were getting better between us in the months before the affair, until another earthquake hit my family and I buckled again.
She’s 54 and has been grappling with menopause and middle age for a few years as well. She’s beautiful and smart and kind and crazy athletic, but she’s waiting for her looks to fade and to get her mom’s arthritis and her dad’s dementia.
I took my eye off the ball to try and deal with my problems. She said she wasn’t actively looking for someone, but the climate made it possible to imagine being with someone. I think it’s become more than either of us could have ever imagined.
I’ve been focusing on myself for the last several months. I’m taking care of myself, and now I can take care of her the way I always should have.
Jay,
I’m a child of divorce. Collectively, my parents have a dismal 0-5 track record in marriages. They stunk at it.
I’m 1-1 in marriage proposals but I’m still 1-0 in marriages.
When my alcoholic father had enough of my alcoholic mother, he left and he took me with him. I came really close to divorcing my wife and taking her kids. She’d have gotten hit with divorce papers, a custody order, and some drastically different bank balances on the same morning. Things would be entirely legal but I’d be driving the bus.
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor before declaring war, it was crappy thing from a moral perspective but tactically it was a good move. They also made some mistakes.
Divorce sucks. But, what are you teaching your daughter in all this? At some point, loyalty and duty hit their limits and you take action. Your parents did and my parents did.
When my wife and I were going at it, I told her that I wasn’t going to spend the last half of my life living like this. For me, divorce was always an option. LO #2 knew my family’s history and it influenced her. She told me so.
The most valuable things I got from my father after the divorce were to protect your self-respect and not normalize unacceptable behavior.
A Navy buddy got divorced after 20+ years of marriage. He said it cost him $400K and half his Federal and reserve pensions for as long she lives. He said it was worth it.
She said that she would leave you and the only thing holding her back is economics.
Rather than waiting for your wife to encounter a burning bush or have some other epiphany, maybe you just need to force the issue. Your daughter is old enough to understand that. Do it with finesse and your daughter might respect you even more for it.
You don’t have to really be a SOB, you just have to make your wife think you could be. It’s a really useful skill to have and trot out should you need it.
As the Supply Officer on my first submarine said when he was telling us about his wife’s affair,
“We all make our choices.”
Jay,
I’m a female, and I second Limerent Emeritus point of view.
You got to make a choice, and fast!
Best wishes.
Everything I’ve read convinces me she’s limerent. I’ve known alcoholics and other addicts, and this looks identical to me. She knows what she’s doing is wrong and has expressed a measure of remorse, but at the same time continues to pursue it even knowing the potential consequences.
Yes, it is true that you can’t make someone change who doesn’t want to, but you can still ruin your life trying. But limerence always ends, and so there’s a real chance she’ll snap out of it. And after 27 years together, I have a very hard time with the idea of leaving her to deal with her addiction.
Your life, your choices
Sorry Jay,
But limerents I have known at LwL have a sense of responsibility and decency, accountability, remorse and willing to change, look for therapy… Her case seems overboard, overwhelming …. Have not seen a case like that at LwL, or maybe I missed it.
Hope you come to a viable agreement with her.
@Jay
If it truly is limerence, it should pass… mine would run about 2 years (no PA however, just emotionally). I was not myself either, and am the first to admit it. If it passes and she learns from her limerence, great. If it doesn’t pass, then that is something else. Either way, I admire you at least trying to find out. 💙
Update:
Inquired to a couples therapist as it’s the only thing my wife is even slightly receptive to right now. She called me back and we actually spoke for quite a while, seems familiar with limerence, or at least the dynamic. She suggested I pass her number to my wife so she could answer my wife’s questions before setting an appt. My wife said she’d call her. I’m cautiously optimistic.
Also saw a personal therapist who just told me I should protect myself. Not sure if I’ll go back to that one.
My wife says she doesn’t want to stay married, but isn’t ready to divorce either. She says that’s a big step, and she prefers to pull away gradually. She says she was going to leave me eventually anyway, and now she’s entitled to take as much time as she wants without regard for how much it hurts me or anyone else.
She says that even if I file for divorce, she’ll just refuse to sign the papers. In the meantime she will come and go as she pleases, spending all her free time with the LO and plunging the blade a little deeper every time she does.
It’s really starting to affect my mental health. I started having very dark thoughts, and actually called a support hotline last night. I’m thinking I may need to move out, and maybe even check into inpatient treatment. I’m no longer confident I won’t do something I’ll regret.
I set an appointment in three weeks with a divorce lawyer. I’m thinking I could contact the LO directly, tell him my wife is destroying her family and that he should either propose to her or dump her. But after enduring so much abject cruelty and disrespect, I’m not so concerned anymore with who ends what. I just want it all to end.
Jay, please don’t do anything drastic. You are going through hell right now. Its so tough but you can get help. You can call the lines below,
https://www.linesforlife.org/get-help-now/services-and-crisis-lines/
https://988lifeline.org/
Or you can reach out to a friend, you can reach out to a local priest or community member, or just go back to your therapist from before and tell them what you just told us here.
Your daughter needs you. Your friends need you. This feeling will pass and you will be able to move ahead from it. The pain you are in can be dealt with. Don’t bottle it up, please.
@Jay
Wow, just wow, what a turn that took! If there is anything we can help you with, I hope you know we are here for you and care about your well-being, as well as your family’s.
Jay, I don’t want to repeat myself but just to say I know you already called a hotline but it will require many more than just one conversation. You sound like you really need to talk and you need to unburden yourself. The pain will go.
You may not hear anything helpful from one therapist / counsellor, it can take time to find the right fit for you. But help is out there. Your work may have a counselling service, this could be ideal. Lots of us here have tried this route.
If you are in a bad way, you can go to an emergency dept. or out of hours doctors service. The hotlines are 24/7 to get you over the hump of the weekend. Please try.
Thanks for the update, Jay. That is really heavy. Your wife’s lack of basic decency is shocking. She is dragging this out and hurting you in the process. You are trying to make things better.
Let’s address the dark thoughts. Those thoughts are TEMPORARY. Don’t do anything permanent. Call 988.
Will you reread Limerent Emeritus’s comments, too? Your wife’s person addiction might be bigger than you can handle. You might have to cut ties with her and let her figure things out on her own. Remember that Joe Beam divorced his wife because of his limerence, too. Joe is the guy who created Marriage Helper. I think it took him 3 years to come to his senses and his wife did not stay married to him while he wrestled with his limerence. You might have to let your wife wrestle this problem alone. I hope things go well with that divorce lawyer.
God bless you, Jay!
As the old line goes, a good man always knows his limitations. Last night I discovered mine. Tonight I checked in at the local hospital, will defer to the specialists for how to address my ideations. However, it’s been four hours and no one’s talked to me yet, so I might be inclined to just sleep in my own bed.
Spoke to my daughter before I came over, she was understanding. I told her about limerence, and she realizes how it’s affecting her mother’s behavior. Her senior prom is tomorrow, looks like Mom will bail out on that too. Our daughter is reading her loud and clear, and it breaks my heart. I also told her that I’m filing for divorce, but there was still time for Mom to come back around. I made sure she’s spending the weekend with friends who will support her – unfortunately Mom will be with the LO no matter what the rest of us are going through.
Wife’s position is I need to get out of whatever funk I’m in, because I was stable until I wasn’t. I told her this is directly related to her latest screed, that I’m at my limit, I just can’t tolerate any more of it. She says I’m in a psych ward; the staff here disagree. (My wife’s a nurse, why wouldn’t she know that?) She still just wants us to be amiable and compassionate with each other, not seeing the irony that she’s been anything but. However, that might be a lure to the couples workshop, if it’s even worth it at this point.
Enough with the abject cruelty, indifference, and disrespect. She just wants the status quo – undoubtedly because it suits her. But I plan to move out as soon as I’m out of the hospital, and I still have my appointment with a lawyer on the 20th. This train isn’t going to stop unless she stops it.
Does the limerent even see what they’re doing to the ones they love? Do they live with an internal torment amid a wave of guilt? Do they even remember who they used to be?
I hope God will give my wife the clarity to emerge from this fog she’s in, and forgive me for not being strong enough to support her until she does.
I am so glad you are getting the help you need, Jay. You seem to be doing the right thing.
Good morning, Jay. I’m just checking in to see how you’re doing.
“Enough with the abject cruelty, indifference, and disrespect. She just wants the status quo – undoubtedly because it suits her.”
You’ve come to a very painful realization, Jay, and I’m sorry you’re suffering. But it’s critical to see the situation for what it is.
I hope you get the care you need and can return home to your daughter soon.
Don’t move out of the house before consulting an attorney. I think your wife is trying to stretch out the status quo for immediate and future financial reasons. Depending on the State you live in — you sound American — your leaving the home may work in her favor in divorce court.
Try to live through the storm and stay clear-headed if possible.
Please update us when you can.
Jay, I am so proud of you for checking in at the hospital today! Good work! You did the right thing. I know it takes time for them to get someone to talk to you and the wait is uncomfortable, but it’s worth it. You are getting through the dark thoughts. The first time I took my daughter to the ER for her suicidal ideation, she was seven. We sat in the ER waiting room for a long time while we waited for our turn to be seen. I felt out of place. Neither of us were visibly injured like the other people in the waiting room. I kept wondering if I had done the right thing by taking her to the ER. I soon learned that I did the right thing. It was a blessing. We learned about resources that have been very helpful for my daughter. They introduced us to the center where my daughter has been seeing therapists off and on for the past seven years. I’m glad that we made the trip to the ER that day. I’m glad that you reached out for help today.
It’s really hard to like your wife. She sounds shockingly selfish. I’m so sorry you’re going through this right now. Thank you for taking care of your daughter’s needs and making sure that she has support. I hope her prom goes well.
This “funk” that your wife wants you to get out of doesn’t have a quick fix. It sounds like you are experiencing some clinical depression. It’s hard to climb out of depression. You can do it, but it takes time. I’m glad that you are deferring to the professionals.
I’ll try to answer your questions…
“Does the limerent even see what they’re doing to the ones they love?”
Sometimes they do, but sometimes they are so distracted by the limerent euphoria that they don’t pay attention to anything else.
“Do they live with an internal torment amid a wave of guilt?”
A lot of us experience high levels of guilt. Unfortunately, some don’t feel guilty about it.
“Do they even remember who they used to be?”
I think they remember who they used to be.
Jay, you are strong. You are a dedicated father and husband who loves his family. You have done more to preserve your marriage and help your wife with her limerence than most people would have done.
Update: First day out of the house. Got an email from our prospective therapist, she spoke with my wife and agreed to see us. Hoping….
On my way out last night, I left my wife a copy of the book Living With Limerence on our bed. Today it looks like she’s read Chapter One! Hoping….
Good!
But please don’t forget to contact a lawyer meanwhile. Legal advice seems crucial, really. Sorry to be pragmatic.
That’s really good, Jay. You are educating her as well as taking care of yourself. 🌟
Great news! Please read Limerent Emeritus’ advice posts anyway.
I’m amazed at how callous she’s acting. I think there’s more going on with her than limerence. Don’t let her destroy you!
Hi Jay,
I’m sorry things turned out bad. Please, do not do anything hasty. Think of your precious daughter, she doesn’t deserve to live in such unhealthy environment. You can provide that healthy environment for her. CALM DOWN!!! Breath deeply. Reach out to a close family member you feel comfortable to talk with. Do not be ashamed to tell the truth, it will set you free. Or reach the number Lovisa provided for immediate help. You’re not alone, there are people you don’t know yet that are willing to help you. Just call for help .
Im not a lawyer, but I think you have the legal right to divorce due to her adultery, as you mentioned she’s with someone else, and she also has admitted it to you. Can you prove that in court? And, probably you have the right to keep your daughter and stay in the house , I think. She’s got to move out eventually as she’s frequently abandoning her home for her LO, as you say. The best thing is to consult your lawyer, he/she will be more than helpful in this circumstances.
Hoping and praying for a good outcome for you and child.
Emerged from a long weekend at the hospital with no prescribed medications and an appt with a therapist. And clarity.
Before I went in, I group texted my wife and her LO with the same words I first used with him: “Karen is my wife”. Then I told him that if he loves her, he should propose. I have yet to receive a reply.
My wife left me a nice text while I was in, but I didn’t have my phone so I didn’t see it till I left. Got home and she immediately accused me of doing it to manipulate her. Could the cognitive dissonance possibly be that bad?
We went for a drive and she said she was being unfair to me. Then she continued to be unfair. She wants me to stick around to manage our finances, take care of bills, and be there for our daughter. She says she meets many couples with marriages of convenience. I told her she was the one shattering the status quo, and I wasn’t going to keep paying the price in pain for her behavior. She was going to have to learn to handle a lot of things for herself.
And then I moved out.
She protested to the last, saying it was stupid since I was already sleeping in another room. Saying I was going against what I’d said before. Saying she thought I only wanted her to be happy.
She knows I have a legal appt, I told her I have every intention of keeping it. I told her to stop texting me, and once we’re divorced, we will not touch at any point. Our only common interest will be our daughter.
It sounds like you are making progress, Jay. I’m disgusted that she wanted a “marriage of convenience.” You didn’t sign up for that. You didn’t consent to her affair either.
Thank you for the update! I’m glad the hospital stay went well.
Hi Jay,
Well done. You took a stance!
Please consult a lawyer as soon as possible, I’m not sure if it’s good that you moved out instead of her, but on the other hand, it was certainly good for your mental health to do it and that’s more important now.
Good luck!
Sorry I didn’t answer your question…
“ My wife left me a nice text while I was in, but I didn’t have my phone so I didn’t see it till I left. Got home and she immediately accused me of doing it to manipulate her. Could the cognitive dissonance possibly be that bad?”
Yes, the cognitive dissonance gets bad. The limerent recognizes that their thoughts/actions don’t align with their values. It feels confusing and conflicting so the limerent tries to make sense of it. Unfortunately, the reality is that they are doing something wrong and they need to stop. What makes sense is that they are human and they are giving in to human temptation and they should stop. But they don’t want to stop so they search for an alternate reality which doesn’t exist so whatever solution they come up with makes no sense to a thinking person. This paragraph probably doesn’t make sense either, sorry about that. The answer is yes, the cognitive dissonance gets bad.
Jay,
Glad to hear that you’re back and rolling. It may not be the outcome that you wanted but you have made the decision.
Your happiness is as important as hers.
While you’re waiting to see the attorney,
I recommend that you play an aggressive defense.
1. Find out if you live in a one party or two party recording state. In some jurisdictions, one party can record a conversation without the permission of the other. Record everything.
2. Start establishing an electronic alibi. Use a card for everything. Even if you don’t really want one, swing through the drive thru and grab a cup of coffee. Smile at security cameras.
3. Journal everything.
4. What about your daughter? Is she going with you? If not, make sure that she understands that you’re making a strategic retreat and not abandoning her.
5. Get a divorce lawyer. A specialist. You want the best shark that you can afford, one who knows what they’re doing, can play dirty, and who’ll go on the offensive. Keep the pressure on but don’t be a jerk.
Good luck and welcome to the first steps to a better life!
Bravo, Jay! Great job for having healthy boundaries, and sticking to them. You truly did your best to give her a chance at redemption.
Limerent or not, it appears you are doing the healthiest thing possible. As a person if faith myself, I understand that the hardest thing is to let people go to their own devices once you’ve done everything you can to help/guide them. It’s ultimately their choice. 💙
Jay,
This should go without saying but, whatever you do…
DON’T SLEEP WITH HER!
I can tell you from experience that it can be the last tactic of someone on her way out.
Stand by. The cognitive dissonance will likely get worse before it gers better.
At this point, don’t try to understand it. That’s what post-divorce counseling is for. Stay focused on facts and getting out. Presumption and speculation as to why this happened can be very distracting. I recommend you focus your short-term therapy on staying level so you can get through this.
My twice divorced father said he hoped that I’d never have to go through a divorce.
But, he taught me how to get one.
Jay,
Some more unsolicited advice:
Have you told your boss about your upcoming separation/divorce? He/she may be more sympathetic than you might think. Mine were.
When I was going through the end with LO #2, I was working on a nuclear reactor and was making mistakes. My boss had gone through a messy divorce. He pulled me aside and told me to take some time off before I did something to tank my career.
Also, if you hold a security clearance, separation/divorce is a required reportable event. The hospilization is a little bit trickier. Depending on how you spin it, it may or may not be a reportable event.
If your employer has an EAP, I recommend that you contact it. They can answer some of these questions. It’s usually free and maybe on the clock.
I found this site last night, doing some research about my husband’s obsessions and horrible behavior for most of our marriage. From what he’s described and what I’ve noticed, this sounds right to both of us. He’s also been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder, which tends to take limerence and turn up the intensity.
He was already heavily limerent when we met and, unbeknownst to me, he was obsessed with a woman who he’d met when she was bartending at a restaurant he frequented. The obsession was apparently so strong that he found out what area of town she lived in and moved there, just so he could be “close” to her. After being acquaintances for 2-3 years, he planned to ask her out but had an accident that kept him away for a few months. By the time he saw her again, she had a boyfriend and eventually moved away. He then started pursuing her friend, so that he could have some connection to his LO, but the friend just led him on for tips (she was a bartender at the same restaurant.) It was during this time that he got in touch with me and we started a relationship.
I knew about this girl and he actually brought me into the restaurant to meet her. Later, he admitted that he did it to try to make her jealous and to show her that he was relationship material. Obviously, it didn’t work and his repeated social media interactions with the original LO were ignored as well. After we’d been dating for a few months, he asked me to marry him (which seems fast, but we were both raised in religious groups where it’s common.) He visited the restaurant to try to see the friend a few days before we married. His last social media interaction with the original LO… the night before.
I had NO idea. He promised me that he cut it all off and I found out that he’d been to the restaurant a few weeks after the wedding from debit card transactions on our now joint bank account. It was shortly after that I found out he was having an EA with his boss. He didn’t find her attractive, but the validation was nice. I hit the roof. HARD. The EA was terminated immediately and he was told, in no uncertain terms, that I’d kick him out if he ever pulled that again. I’ve been married twice before and both of my ex husband’s cheated. My father had a long term affair with a woman that he married shortly after he divorced my mother. It’s not something that I’m ever going to tolerate.
COVID happened about 6 months after we got married and he was furloughed from work. It was the only really happy time we had. Once the local lockdowns ended, we started going to church, enjoyed long walks every night and it was this nice little extended honeymoon. Unfortunately, when he went back to work, our relationship went south again. Most of his time outside of work was spent playing games or watching videos on his phone. He stopped having any interest in physical intimacy, preferring to sneak off and watch pornography in the middle of the night. We tried marriage counseling several times and he would make some changes, but they were typically short lived.
I tried EVERYTHING to make him happy. Nothing would. At some point, I gave up and focused on school, pets and other interests, as he acted like he just didn’t care about me that much anymore. I considered leaving a few times and even started planning for it, spoke with an attorney, etc. He’d promise to change and that things would get better but, again, any changes were short lived. It became even worse when he started a new job. I now know why.
His recent/current LO was 20 years old when he met her (I was 43 and he was 34, for reference) and, when he saw her standing at the other end of a hallway, he had this feeling of being completely gobsmacked. He adored her immediately, although he tried to ignore her initially. When he sensed a little bit of interest, he decided that he was going to pursue her and, if that ended our marriage… that was fine with him. He flirted with her openly, in front of his co-workers and didn’t particularly care if they noticed. Eventually, he transferred to another location and his obsession with her lessened. Unfortunately, things didn’t work out with an extremely toxic boss and he went back to the location where his LO worked. He continued to pursue her, despite the fact that she clearly wasn’t interested. In fact, she made fun of him behind his back.
During this time, our marriage hit the rocks extremely hard. I was in a car wreck a few weeks before he met her and my health took some pretty serious hits over the 2 years that this was going on. At this point, I have a permanent neurological injury and debilitating chronic pain. He blamed my injury, school and a variety of other things for his inappropriate relationship/interest. The day before my most recent birthday, he told me that he really wanted to marry his original LO and, as she wasn’t available, he desperately wanted her friend. The only reason he married me was because he couldn’t have them and he didn’t want to be alone. He let me know that he texted the second LO about a week prior. I spent my birthday alternating between bitter tears and trying to decide how to end my own life. Yes, I’ve talked to someone and I’m in a better state of mind now.
He still works with the recent LO, although he’s agreed to transfer to another location, when he returns from FMLA leave, so he doesn’t have to work with her. There’s also been some progressive truth telling, which has been absolutely devastating. It went from “Eh, I hit on her for kicks” to sincerely trying to have a physical relationship and still being interested in her. He also has admitted to looking up his original LO and her friend until he met the recent LO, as he never stopped obsessing over them until he had a new target for his feelings.
How has this affected me? If it’s possible to have negative self-esteem, that’s where mine currently is. I feel absolutely worthless, especially considering what a disgusting person the recent LO is. She’s 23 years old, brags about how much she’s been paid for sex and that she’s been with over a thousand men. But, that’s who my husband wanted so badly, rather than me. I’m sincerely considering divorce, at this point. It’s bad enough that he chased someone young enough to be my child, but the neglect and the cruelty are what make this intolerable.
Some of his co-workers became “friends” of mine, but chose not to tell me that my husband was acting like this, so the secondary betrayal just heaps more hurt on top of what’s already there. I’ve considered saying something to a few of them, but… why? It’s pretty clear that they didn’t value me enough to warn me, so why would they care if I was hurt over it? I may say something in the future but, for now, I’m choosing to ignore them and none of them have reached out to me in any way. Now I know why some of his co-workers purposely avoided me. I thought they just didn’t like me for whatever reason.
Through the process of discovery, that’s had several stages and has lasted almost a year, I’ve very much fallen out of love with him. He knows and I’ve been very honest about what I feel and why. He’s been through treatment for BPD and is working with a counselor to work through the trauma of his early childhood. We’re also working with a marriage counselor, but progress has been slow as I’m not sure if I want to stay in this relationship. I absolutely don’t trust him and, as he’s made so many empty promises in the past, I don’t believe him that he’ll do much to change. There is a very real sense of hanging onto the pain and anger to avoid any kind of vulnerability. It’s not safe to be vulnerable with him anymore and I’m not sure if that’s going to change. Ever. I don’t believe that he loves me and not just because of the limerence. I also don’t think that he’s with me because he wants to be. At this point, I’m the only one that’s ever been interested and I think he’d rather smooth things over with someone that he’s meh about than be alone. I’ve told him everything that I’ve said here.
I won’t lie and say that I haven’t had thoughts of self harm since my birthday. My therapist has taken several emergency phone calls when I get so overwhelmed by the enormity of loss that there doesn’t seem to be a point. I also have pets that know when Mom is upset and are wonderfully comforting.
My undergraduate minor is in Psychology and my undergraduate research work was in neuroscience, so I understand the involuntary biochemical process behind limerence. As someone who deals with obsessive thoughts, I know how distressing it can be. It’s the behavior that’s important. If my husband told me what was going on and didn’t discard me for a girl he didn’t even know, it would have been a VERY different story. If he would have stopped the obsession when he met me and didn’t ignore me for years, it would have been a different story. I might believe him when he says that he loves me and all of the wonderful things that he knows I want to hear. As it stands now, I’m more inclined to hope that he gets through his issues, so that he doesn’t destroy any more lives.
Ellie
After reading your whole story my first inclination is to think that it is so much more than limerence. Your husbands behavior is very calculated and purposeful. While, yes, limerence does push people’s behavior into doing things that are out of the norm for them, it doesn’t (usually) led them to the types of behavior your husband is displaying.
The saying that he doesn’t love you. Never did. Only got with you because he didn’t want to be alone. Hoping to parade you in front of his LO to make her jealous. That’s a lot of dirty behavior. But I also will insert that I am not at all familiar with BPD so maybe that some of this behavior of his could be due to that.
I have only been limerent once. And I hope to God it stays that way. I put my wife through enough with just one. I can’t imagine it happening again, much less seeking it out as your husband has, going from one LO to another. So I cannot speak of serial limerence much but there are other very knowledgeable multi-limerent posters here that speak of it better than I.
Speaking on your faith … funny enough after 20 years of absence from church, shortly after exLO left the job (2 years ago) around November of last year I started attending church again. It’s been a mixed bag for me personally, but some days it is very encouraging to go and mingle with people and listen to the sermon. It helps keep my mind focused on good things so that the limerence stays locked in it’s cage in my head. I hope that if you continue to go it will be good for you too.
The feelings that you have, that you say make you feel worthless. You are not. I can’t vouch for your husband based on your story that you have posted, but I can promise you, in my limerence I meant no intended disrespect to my wife. I still loved her and I still do. I know I hurt her then and I have in the aftermath of it all. And that does weigh on me a lot. I can understand that she will not see me the same way, ever. Even though she is willing to stay after it was all said and done. But I have had relapses that have caused more damage and she continues to stay. 2 years after she’s gone and I am finally on the road to complete recovery. And that is because I am making an effort to do so. Your husband doesn’t seem to want to change his. Despite that you feel thrown away by him does not mean your worth is any less. In fact your dedication to try and rebuild your marriage despite what he has done shows you have worth. An astounding amount of worth. Being that limerence is fairly unknown to the common man, many spouses would walk away from a limerent assuming it is a EA or PA. Because limerence has all the signs of exactly that. But here you are trying. Showing him how important your marriage is no matter how cavalier he is about it. You are a very strong and dedicated woman. So you tell that brain of yours that “I AM WORTH IT!”
As far as legally there is a post by the very knowledgeable poster Limerent Emeritus to another new poster here that is going through something similar to what you are. (He goes by Jay and his story is just above your post in this blog post.) He has first hand experience with it. I will post a link to it. And you can always reach out to him. He is one of our oldest denizens here.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/dealing-with-limerence-in-marriage/#comment-56016
You are very welcome to post and share more here. There are a lot of people that can help you. Both female limerents/ex-limerents as well as female SO that have shared stories in their marriages of limerence. If you decide to stick around welcome to our quite strange but helpful community.
My ex-husband also has BPD (and BP). I really do know the path of broken glass that you’re walking on with bare feet at the moment.
I would very much advise that you consult an attorney, separate as much as you can financially and very seriously consider getting a divorce.
He has agency. He knows right from wrong. He chooses to hurt you over and over and over again. BPD is a personality disorder – not a mental health issue where they cycle. It is VERY rare that they improve significantly and he clearly isn’t committed to doing so.
Dump the Switzerland friends too.
I realize this isn’t a popular viewpoint, but you may find the advice at ChumpLady more suited to your predicament.
You don’t have to justify why you want to end this relationship. It’s because it is unacceptable to you. You are contemplating suicide and that would be a tragedy. Not only is it a tragedy, it provides him with MORE cover and opportunities to play on the generous natures of future dates. If he and LO swan off into the sunset together, they are likely to get what they want. Much drama and anxiety.
My sympathies for the past. Please prioritize yourself and your well-being.
Life IS better once you get away from them. I paid mine a lot of money to go away. I have regained so much since then (including a fair amount of money). It can be done. It’s not easy and not fair, but being alone with your pets and having good friends in your corner is so much better than being lonely with your SO in your space, but not there for you.
SO Ellie, Lee has some great advice for you. I don’t like ChumpLady because I think she is full of resentment and hatred but that site might be just what you need.
I didn’t realize you were dealing with BPD and BP, Lee. My heart goes out to you. I’m glad that you’re doing better now that you split with your SO.
Welcome back, Lee. You’re the SME in this arena.
It’s too bad that you can’t search LwL by poster. Your posts are a gold mine.
Hi Lee, as L.Emeritus says it’s great to see you again. Your perspective is so welcome to bring the balance here.
My only input is for Ellie to indeed seek various sources of information/support, and not just here or the other place you mentioned, which has a very different ‘tone’ and obviously different audience.
I think it’s healthy for us all to do this actually, to seek lots of sources to try to avoid a potential echo chamber effect.
I personally LOVE Chumplady! As I am experiencing Limerence, it is a very sobering look at the other side, with the luxury of seeing and understanding the fall-out on the other side. For those who think she is too much, join the Facebook group and read on about the suffering other side. Every married/partnered limerent person with a shred of sanity left should see it from the outside, that is a great way of achieving it. It cuts to the chase. It is very human to admire the problem and discuss it, which at times happens a lot here at LwL, too see the other side, and understand the flaky LOs we encounter, Chumplady’s FB is the sobering lens. And yes, it is not pretty.
I don’t even know where to start. He told me about LO because he lost his job after disclosure. He didn’t choose to tell me he was forced into it. He didn’t choose me, she rejected him.
I feel demolished – everything I thought was true feels like a lie. I feel worthless, valueless of no concequences. A bit player in my own story.
I have no idea what I want to do. He says he loves me, has always loved me and yet, he can’t express this love to me – all I want is to feel that he wants to be with me, not just avoid the unpleasantness of a divorce and the pain that comes with it. I just want to feel loved. I have been compassionate, I understand that he is lost and that “reality” crashed his fantasy and in turn has shattered his sense of self…
But, what about me – I feel if he wanted me he would be begging me to stay, telling me constantly how much he loves me, showering me with compliments and gratitude… Instead there is nothing.
He says it is only right that the decision about our marriage is up to me – that feels like a cop-out.
To be honest I’m not sure this will help anyone, I have no new insight. The pain is unimaginable.
My only recommendation – tell your SO, make them feel you chose them, that the LE is the unwanted feeling, that it is them you love. They will still feel betrayed and hurt, but at least they will know what YOU want and that it is them.
Bunny
I wished that I’d known what limerence was when it was happening. It was 6 months after I last saw her that I found this place and immediately confessed to my already suspicious wife what was going on. It’s been two years since I last saw her. My wife has been very gracious in staying.
I approached my wife twice about separation in limerence. I made no qualms the feelings I had for her. I was up front about my feelings for her and my wife. I had strong feelings for them both. They both filled an uneasy void in my soul.
“The pain is unimaginable.”
I am sure it is Bunny. I can’t imagine the pain I’ve put my wife of 25 years through. I can’t. But I strive to make up for it. Yes it is in the aftermath. And her being gracious is why we are together still.
But Bunny you are NOT worthless. No matter how this resolves itself you are not. Whether you choose to stay is your choice, I didn’t make the choice either she walked away, but if you are as gracious and patient as my dear wife there is a good chance you and him can get past this.
But this LO is not indicative of your worth young lady. He is not in his right mind. When she walked away I was devastated. But who was still there? My wife. She stood by me. And I love her for that. I don’t deserve it. But she did.
Hi Bunny,
I could have written exactly this. My husband has put me in the exact same situation for the exact same reasons. While he wasn’t forced into disclosing it to me and didnt lose his job, his LO rejected him and ridiculed him publicly for hitting on her. His renewed interest in our marriage seems like you said: To avoid the unpleasantness and pain of divorce.
I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s a a crummy club to qualify to join.
Hi Adam,
Thank you for your response and the words of encouragement. I’m doing my best to not allow this to ruin my self image, although that’s extremely hard.
BPD does have a huge influence on his behavior and is behind a good portion of the cruelty. His therapist was very clear that Cluster B disorders are absolutely terrifying and some horrible behaviors can result from it. The incident on my birthday was a Cluster B rage. She has been pretty shocked by some of his behavior, although it’s likely that he’s being more honest than she’s used to. He’s brought in my journal (with my permission,) in an effort to avoid minimizing the impact, which he’s done heavily in the past. My mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder and she’s an absolute monster who refuses to admit that she has a problem. My husband does admit that he has a problem and is trying to be responsible, so that’s definitely something.
There’s a concept with BPD of a “favorite person” which is an LO on steroids. The idea that he’s maintained these obsessions until a new one comes along doesn’t sound odd when viewed through the lens of BPD. The Favorite Person is there to fill a void of validation, self esteem and all that the individual with BPD doesn’t have within them. It’s extremely unhealthy, obsessive and ends in serious devaluation of the Favorite Person by the person with BPD when they’re unable/ unwillling to fill that void. He was diagnosed at the end/ after his most recent limerence episode and his therapist brought up the idea that the first LO was a Favorite Person a couple/ few weeks ago.
Something to add is that he’s always maintained that he loves me, even when he was obsessed with someone else. He also claims that he didn’t want to leave me for either of his LO’s. He says that he does want to stop all of this, get his BPD under control, etc. I feel like I wasn’t really as clear as I hoped in telling the story and I apologize for that. In the past, it’s been a lot of empty promises, prior to his BPD diagnosis sometime around last September/ October. A lot of this is extremely new. He didn’t know that his reaction to his latest LO was abnormal until his therapist said something and we (mostly me, if we’re being honest) started researching it.
My husband has read your response and generally agrees that he didn’t want to hurt me, that he loved me at the time, etc. I don’t believe him. Not even a little bit. I don’t think it’s possible to be that obsessed with someone else, but love me in any way. I mean, how could someone love and care for their spouse, but be so willing to sacrifice that relationship for someone he didn’t even know at the time? He claims he didn’t think it through enough to consider what would happen to me but he was very aware that being successful with her would end his marriage. I know there’s some pathology involved and I dont understand limerence at all, but it doesn’t compute for me that all of this can be true at the same time. I feel like it’s all damage control so he doesn’t end up with nothing.
I intellectually understand that the feelings of worthlessness, being less than, etc are incorrect. Emotionally, it’s extremely hard to feel otherwise as the SO in this situation. When the person who knows you better than anyone is willing to give you up for another, it seems natural to have some hefty questions about worth and one’s place in the world.
You’re absolutely correct that, prior to stumbling on the concept of limerence, I assumed that this was just a one-sided EA. Some of what he’s said has been so confusing and his therapist remarked that what he’s telling her is abnormal, which has sparked a lot of curiosity for me. Prior to my disability, I was a scientist and this is what I do when I have unanswered questions, I guess. There’s also a sense that I care about him and I don’t want him to keep doing this to himself, even if his life doesn’t include me going forward.
I’m vasillating heavily between thinking I can get past the betrayal, so we can keep going and thinking that the enormity of hurt will prevent us from moving on together. The uncertainty is ALL me. He’s wholeheartedly wanting to work things out. And, why wouldn’t he? Losing his spouse and not getting anything from his LO/ Favorite Person is the worst outcome possible.
I’m reluctant to settle for being the last woman standing and really deserved better than what I got.
Hi SO Ellie, It is really hard to love someone who has a Cluster B personality disorder. My sister has untreated BPD, my son sees a therapist for his Antisocial Personality Disorder and my daughter sees a therapist for her BPD symptoms. My daughter is underage so she hasn’t received the diagnosis yet. I have to say that I admire people who willingly participate in therapy. Your husband deserves credit for it. That being said, Cluster B disorders are so hard! Yesterday and today were rough with my sister. She said and did some very hurtful and threatening things. The police came to my house this morning and advised me how to proceed. It was helpful! I have to use special boundaries with my sister because she is dangerous. That’s the thing with Cluster B personality disorders, you have to use special boundaries around them. I wouldn’t want my most important relationship to be like that. My marriage is my sanctuary. My SO is my escape from the unpleasant things in life. It would be hard to navigate marriage with special boundaries. You have to decide what you want, but I wouldn’t want to be married to a man like you described. It would be too hard. Since you don’t have kids, you can make a clean break. Those are my thoughts.
Good luck, Ellie! I wish you the best.
Hey Lovisa,
Your family sounds a lot like mine, as far as Personality disorders go. My mom has NPD, brother is likely just heavy on the narcissistic traits from our upbringing, my dad probably has a Cluster B disorder, although he may just be a drunk. My husband’s family is full of Cluster B’s, too. I almost feel “lucky” that I would up with Avoidant Personality Disorder with Schizoid traits.
My husband does deserve a LOT of credit for trying to deal with his issues and he has been putting the work in. It’s a heartbreaking disease, it really is. I know the basics of what happened to him (he’s never offered the details and I’ve never asked,) and I know what happened to my mom to turn her into the person she is. Working through it is admirable.
I definitely could bail and even he wouldn’t blame me for it. He knows how bad it’s gotten. In every other relationship I’ve had where infidelity happened, there was an immediate break. However, my husband seems to be genuinely, deeply remorseful. He’s working out why it happened. He’s been reading and journaling daily. There is effort and it’s hard to walk away from someone who’s trying to control his demons, especially when there’s already such strong fear of abandonment. It might be worth it for both of us to work through it.
At the same time, I have some enormous trust issues and a lot of PTSD. The side effects of limerence whilst married can be devastating.
Oh Boy SO Ellie, that is a heavy load to carry. Your family has a lot of struggles. My family is actually quite healthy it’s just so big that we have some Cluster Bs in it. My kids spent time in foster care before I met and adopted them so they had some early childhood trauma that probably contributed to their personality disorders. I think my grandma had BPD and now I think my sister has it. I don’t think anyone else does.
I’m not familiar with Schizoid traits and I didn’t know that avoidant was considered a personality disorder, but I’ll look them up so I can understand where you’re coming from. Two of my kids see and hear things that aren’t there and I thought that was a symptom of schizophrenia, but maybe it’s schizoid. The two words sound similar. You’ve given me something to think about.
I admire your commitment to your SO. I admire that you’re willing to see this through. It is going to be a rocky road, but I hope you two get through it.
Ellie
“In the past, it’s been a lot of empty promises, prior to his BPD diagnosis sometime around last September/ October.”
I can understand this from the limerent perspective. I told my wife many things. Especially before learning about limerence to downplay my actions. I don’t know how similar BPD can be to limerence but as you explained about his “favorite person” I can quite get that as I let her become that over my wife.
“You’re absolutely correct that, prior to stumbling on the concept of limerence, I assumed that this was just a one-sided EA.”
That is what my wife was suspicious of too, until I found this place and confessed my limerence to her. I don’t know her exact thoughts at the time that I told her. I think that she was a bit skeptical at first, but has come to understand the phenomenon and even occasionally posts here.
I very much understand your willingness to stay and work with him. I have a very understanding wife that has done the same for me as you have for your husband. You ladies are quite the understanding spouses. Will our marriage ever be the same? No. But we are willing to try and move forward. Have things gotten back to normal after almost two years? I don’t think so. But I also don’t expect them to. This will be a permanent part of our relationship now. She has been gracious and I have to be understanding.
Ellie I hope that you and your husband can work this out together. I would look forward to hearing a post from you about how things are working positively for the two of you. I am very grateful that I was given a second chance myself despite some quite callous actions on my part in regards to my wife.
Hi Jay, I hope you are doing okay. Please check in when you can.
Good morning, Jay! I would really like to hear from you.
Went back home to mow the lawn, and I couldn’t find the limerence book I left behind. I w londer if my wife took it with her today?
Sometimes I feel like I’m handling things all wrong. I feel like it’s hard to communicate effectively through all the pain. I’m hoping we can both make some headway once we start couples therapy.
Thanks for the update, Jay!
Maybe it’s a good sign that she is reading the book. It makes sense that you would feel lost about how to handle things. I don’t know where this is heading, but you might benefit from rereading Limerent Emeritus’s comments.
Hi Jay, I hope you’re doing okay.
You’re sweet to ask. Listening to “The State of Affairs” by Esther Perel. What a terrific summation of how and why people stray, and how and why their spouses suffer for it. It gives me much to hope for, I greatly recommend it!
That is great news, Jay! I am a fan of Esther Perel’s work. Thank you for the recommendation. Right now I’m reading Build the Life You Want by Arthur C Brooks. I love his stuff, too. He says that the keys to happiness are enjoyment, satisfaction and purpose. He says satisfaction is the joy that follows the struggle. I agree! I think that’s why running is so satisfying. It’s a struggle, but I feel joyful afterwards.
Your optimism is incredible, Jay! I love how determined you are to understand what is happening with your wife.
Did you get a chance to read through Limerent Emeritus’s advice? What are your thoughts?
How did your meeting go with your lawyer?
Don’t meet lawyer until next week. First couples therapy session is tomorrow, will figure out what to do next.
Therapist spent a whole hour with me during initial screening phone call, but only 10 minutes with my wife. She may have a good handle on the role of limerence in this drama, hopeful she can tactfully engage my wife. Otherwise we may be one and done. Cross your fingers…!
Yes, fingers crossed. Good luck tomorrow!
Esther Perez has never, not once, submitted a paper to a professional magazine for a peer review. She’s tarted up lying and cheating to continue to blame the person who was ignorant of those actions for being responsible for it occurring.
Marriage Helpers is paying someone money to continue to abuse you but hiding behind a profession that is supposed to help people.
I think you need Tracy Schorn’s site more than you need to spend money on marriage counseling or people who take your money and justify the abuse you’ve endured.
“The “Infidelity is a symptom of larger marital issues” argument implies that if you “cure” the marriage, the infidelity will disappear. Aside from the fact that the majority of cheaters report that they are happily married, it’s not unhappiness that makes people cheat—it’s poor character. Yes, they may be unhappy. People often are. It’s what you choose to do about it.” – Tracy Schorn
Take your wife at her word. Cut her loose. Save yourself. Also find a therapist for you and you alone who specializes in trauma.
Jay – this is for you to read today. Not because the man who submitted it is feeling wobbly now that his ex-wife is marrying her exit affair, but for all the things he did and can do that got him through it during and after the divorce.
Think of all the mistreatment and disrespect you tolerate now and what you have to gain by ending the marriage.
Life is short. There is no reason to be someone’s emotional punching bag, particularly as you clearly do NOT enjoy it and it’s tearing you up.
Forgot the link.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/dealing-with-limerence-in-marriage/#comment-57211
Dammit. Where’s my coffee?
https://www.chumplady.com/how-to-deal-when-your-ex-married-the-affair-partner/
Chumplady describes a type of person that in 27 years I have never seen in my wife. Never, not even a hint. The transformation is so total it boggles my mind, as well those of our families and friends.
After years of hearing about my husbands life, struggles and limerant feelings for women before me, my own experience with my husband’s over enthusiasm and desperation and inability to listen and an episode after ten years of marriage with him being fanatical for another woman, which ended in him feeling intense shame. It’s clear that limerance is related to self esteem issues and is buried in being mentally unwell. It’s not possible for that person to be thinking about anyone but themselves and the LO is nothing but a fantasy ( a cartoon character). It’s essential to be real and understand how human being’s defense mechanisms work. The thing that is hard is accepting that your husband is unwell and ego centric and with that acceptance any small belief about your own relationship is squashed. That is the pain. It’s an unwelcome reality check. As a spouse, the realisation that your marriage does not consist of mutual emotional reciprocation and never will, is the thing that is very hard to believe and accept.
But with time you learn to invest emotionally in other people who are emotionally mature, yet try to be a caring wife too and try to help them. Not easy but possible.
Jay, if you feel like sharing, I would like to hear about your experience with therapy.
Have a great day!
First couples therapy session. Committed myself to just listening to my wife and acknowledging her feelings. And I was proud to have made it through the whole hour.
The first hour. But it lasted another two hours. And unfortunately I couldn’t stifle all that pain for the duration.
My wife said she’d been thinking about leaving for years. I knew she planned on travel nursing when our daughter left for college, but not to get away from me. She said the LO was a wild card, not part of the plan, but that he helped her see more clearly how pleasant life could be without me. She said she has no interest whatsoever in saving us. That she’s done, it’s over.
My wife said that over the last 27 years, she was intimate with me not through any sense of love or desire for connection, but because she was in the mood and needed the release. The worst part was when she, a hospice nurse, talked of seeing loving couples saying their final goodbyes. She said if she were in the hospital, she would call the LO instead of me. That she would rather spend her last moments with the LO than with me.
I had deep abandonment issues with my mother coming into this marriage. This may not be the absolute worst thing a wife could do to her husband, but it is the deepest, cruelest injury that my wife could possibly inflict on me. It feels like my pain is just bottomless, yet she continues to plumb the depths for more anguish. The therapist saw it plainly in my eyes and encouraged a release. Ultimately, I obliged.
I don’t know if it’s possible to hurt more, or if I’m just not capable of doing so anymore. It’s not numb, but more like a void. I’m almost resigned to a total loss of hope. I’m almost ready to stop tilting at this windmill.
This doesn’t sound like limerence to me anymore. I have no idea how I would ever get my wife to a couples workshop. I can’t conceive how this can possibly be salvaged at all. And increasingly I can’t really imagine why I should continue to insist otherwise.
Hi Jay,
I deeply feel for you. Even without abandonment issues these would be very cruel words to hear and everyone would be deeply hurt by such statements.
Maybe it would do you good to have own therapy sessions just for you and your pain? Maybe even with another therapist?
I don’t know either if this marriage can be salvaged . I don’t know if I could forget these things she said. But you have to know that these are words that she spoke, feelings she felt , it is her issue with you. It doesn’t affect your worth as a person or how loveable you are or the preciousness of your life. Leave that stuff with her and salvage yourself, that was my spontaneous reaction, but I might be wrong, not having read the whole story and not knowing enough.
I just feel for you and want to send you strength.
No, this doesn’t sound like limerence at all, and explains why she was so cruel: She’s long since done, she’s moved on, she wants to gouge you on the way out. I don’t see any saving, either. Seems to me it’s best to cut your losses and find someone who actually wants you, while there’s still time. Trying to hold on or get her into more counseling may very well just lead to her lashing out at you more. And you don’t need that.
Hi Jay,
I hard agree with Serial Limerent. You do not need to be lashed out at. Why is she lashing out? There are ways of saying that you are done without being cruel. Did the therapist do anything to protect you? Was the session really three hours long? I feel like this is not a healthy therapy environment.
Did you also consult a lawyer? No need to answer all my questions, Jay. I just want you to know that it is perfectly reasonable to feel ‘a void’ after hearing these things. You are not reacting in an unusual way. I am really horrified to hear what you’ve just been through, in therapy, of all places. I hope that you can find your own therapist and (in all probabiilty) get used to the idea of disengaging permanently or (at least) while you wife is in this strange place of hurting you without any compunction about it.
Take care of yourself.
The therapy session was to give her a safe space to express herself. Every time she pulls, I can expect a push. This was a really big push.
I think the only thing left might be the couples workshop with Marriage Helper. Members there have told me it resembles their own limerence experience. They say if anything works, this will. She’s turned me down once, we’ll see.
Oh Jay, I am letting that sink in. I’m sorry you are going through this. Your wife said some awful things. Let’s dig a little deeper (I mean address things, not dig deeper into your wounds).
You were right to approach therapy with listening ears. Very nice. You learned that your wife believes that she has been checked out of your marriage for a long time. That is helpful information even though it hurts. Did she say why?
Your wife MIGHT be rewriting history. It’s a common behavior when a person is limerent. She MIGHT be limerent for her affair partner and she may have convinced herself that you are a bad guy and she has been unhappy for a long time because then she feels less shame about her cheating behavior. This is a possibility. I’m pretty sure that Joe Beam rewrote history with Alice when he was limerent. If you are working with a coach at Marriage Helper, please share this information with them.
Whether or not you two can fix your marriage, I think therapy would be helpful to you both. You will always be connected as coparents if not spouses.
I wonder if you could ask her something. Here is how I would word it… “It sounds like I wasn’t a good husband to you and you want to move on. I don’t want to move on, but I also don’t want to be alone after you leave. How can I be a better husband going forward? It might not be with you, though I wish it was with you, but how can I do better?”
Maybe she will be able to articulate some of her complaints.
I appreciate your update! I wish I had something more helpful to say. Mila, Serial Limerent and Bewitched had some helpful comments. I hope you read them. When you feel ready to part ways legally with your wife, reread Limerent Emeritus’s comments because he gave you a great check list to follow.
I care that you are struggling. This is so heavy. I am a stranger on the internet and yet I can feel this weighing me down. It must be so awful for you. I’ll try to find a video that explains “rewriting history.”
She absolutely is rewriting history. Half of what she said was factually untrue. But at the same time, she demonstrated an uncanny ability to conceal her feelings. For example, her loving conduct on my birthday was totally convincing even as she was planning a ski trip with her LO.
Even today she shows a deep concern for my well being. The woman I married is still in there, I just don’t know if she’ll come out before the limerent one destroys me.
Jay, this is so hard. I am amazed at your ability to continue trying. I noticed that many of our LwL members are leaning towards divorce. You might go there, but it sounds like you want to try everything else first. I guess the next step is to persuade her into doing the workshop. Marriage Helper can give you some pointers about how to get an uninterested spouse to a workshop. I am aware of two methods, but I’m not comfortable sharing them here. I recommend that you contact Marriage Helper about it.
It sounds like you are familiar with the concept of rewriting history. I will share one of Dr L’s articles that explains it in case someone else isn’t familiar.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/rewriting-history/
Jay, this might not be the right time to ask this question, but…well… here goes. Hypothetically speaking, if your wife came to her senses and devoted herself to your marriage, how will you get past the betrayal? Can you forgive her?
Jay, I admire your hope and strength. I felt myself getting physically sick as I read your latest updates. I really don’t know how you are coping so well. You are incredible!
Hi Jay,
1) Video: “What to do when people don’t want you”
By R.C. Blake
Another perspective.
2) James Sexton: “A Divorce lawyer’s perspective on Love and Marriage “
Site: Chris Williamson
Get informed in all angles, it will clear your head and make you see things as they are: facts count…
Wishing the best outcome for all concerned.
Jay,
I’m sorry to hear that things are playing out as they are. At this point, my suggestion to you is to take her at her word.
Here’s why:
If you take her at her word and act accordingly, she bears the responsibility for her actions and the consequences. Failure to take her at her word and you become responsible. Her comeback to anything was “I told you so and you didn’t listen.”
To make this easier, you need to understand the difference between an answer and a response. Every answer is a response but not every response is an answer. Answers close questions. “I don’t know” is a perfectly valid response but it’s never an answer.
You also need to learn how to ask questions. Try to frame them as “Yes” or “No” as often as you can. “Do you want to stay married to me?” is a “Yes” or “No” question. “Do you love me?” is a “Yes” or “No” question. If you ask “How long will this go on?” the answer is a unit of time.
Don’t get me started on nurses. LO #2 and LO #3 were nurses and I dated at least one more. After declining my marriage proposal, LO #2 became a gypsy nurse and took off. I now live up the road from where she did one of her temp gigs. Ironic. I married a teacher.
I was really good at asking questions. I asked LO #2 a lot of them. [One of the things about PTSD is you can remember things like they were yesterday.]
Q: “When are you coming back?”
A: “I don’t think I am. – not exactly a unit of time but I could work with it
Q: “Do you want to get back together?”
A: “No.” – I asked her this question twice, six months apart
Q: “Will this relationship ever be what I want it to be?”
A: “No, you should find some sweet young thing who adores you and not waste your time with a crusty old broad (33) like me.”
Q: “Then, why did you call me and why am I here?”
A: “You’re still my best friend.” – [“No, I’m not. “You need a new best friend.”]
Q: “Is what you’re telling me is that you want to look around some more and if you don’t find anything you like better you might move back here and settle for me?”
A: There’s some truth to that” – I got so angry that I got out of the car to prevent myself from backhanding her with my fist.
I totally understand the desire to look under every rock and turn over leaf. You loved them and invested in them. The desire to hold on and wage a guerilla war in the hope that she’ll turn can be overwhelming. But, that’s exactly what it is, a guerilla war. It will take its toll on you and your daughter. You’re not just fighting for yourself, you’re fighting for her, too.
One of my buddies recently got divorced after 20+ years and he said it was like 2 decades of his life were wasted. Another buddy got divorced after 20+ years and he said he wondered why it took him so long to do it.
Once you know that they’re not lying to you, they can be pretty easy to pin down. You should never ask a question that you don’t want to hear the answer to but sometimes you need to ask tough questions.
Hi again Jay,
You have received some different viewpoints from some of us who think that this is getting to the point of defeating the purpose (why inflict more pain) and some of us who think that you should try to persist a little in case she comes to her senses (while distancing slightly, in the sense of understanding that she has ‘lost it’ temporarily due to limerence).
Ultimately only you know best about what is the right thing for you, your daughter (and your wife). Its true that you’ll need to stay civil, at the very least, which may be difficult if she is not honest or is re-writing history or is gaslighting you (pretending).
BUT
I do believe that you need your own therapy because you said this:
“I had deep abandonment issues with my mother coming into this marriage. This may not be the absolute worst thing a wife could do to her husband, but it is the deepest, cruelest injury that my wife could possibly inflict on me.”
I do not think that the couples thing is going to address that. In fact, the couples stuff will likely make it worse because you are going to have to listen to really triggering stuff.
That’s my take – I hope that you get personal support apart from your wife.
Sending lots of very best wishes to you.
“When people make you feel unwanted, don’t leave to make them feel sad or guilty. They won’t.
Leave because you no longer have a reason to stay.
Sometimes you have to be strong for yourself. What is meant to be will end up good and what is not- won’t.
Love is worth fighting for, but sometimes you can’t be the only one fighting.
At times people need to fight for you.
If they don’t, you just have to move on and realize that
what you gave them was more than they’re willing to give you.”
Facts, facts count…not pretty words.
Wow, I’m overwhelmed by all the attention my posts have generated. I deeply appreciate everyone’s kindness, interest, compassion, and advice.
I’ve read all with great interest, and found a tragic link http://midlifeclub.com/midlife-for-dummies.htm that I thought was almost too true to life to be funny.
The sticking point is that we’re married, and I’m committed to that. I still have ample reason to believe my wife is acting out of limerence; even so, she continues to show signs of remorse, she still sometimes treats me with kindness or even fondness, and I believe I could trust her if she ever came out of it. If couples can survive drug and sex addictions, we can conceivably survive this.
But will my health survive long enough? The affair is just the last six months of over 4 years of devastation in my family. I sense a break coming, and I might have to divorce just to save myself.
In the meantime, I am seeing a personal therapist. He did his homework on limerence and completely agrees with my assessment of my wife’s behavior. I’m hoping to follow up with the couples therapist for any new perspectives she might have after our intake session.
Marriage Helper has also been a big help, and I plan to ask my wife about the couples workshop again. At the same time, I’m meeting with the divorce lawyer next Monday. My wife and I have solos with our couples therapist Wed and Fri, respectively, but I’m trying to move mine in front.
My travel schedule gets a bit dicey after that, we’ll see how it goes. Soon we should have enough comments here to start our own blog…!
Jay
You mention midlife in your link. I can say for myself (and some men from the research I have done) that midlife had a huge effect on my being susceptible to limerence. I checked all the boxes off for a 40 something man.
young LO
marriage issues
unmet needs
questioning my past life
wondering about my future life
rescue complex
feminine validation
Maybe women are similar. I can’t say. I am not even going to pretend I understand women. Hell I don’t even understand why the woman I have been with for 25 years is still here. And of course I don’t know you or your wife age. I just wanted to throw that out there. That there maybe reasons why your wife is hot/cold with you. Even if in the middle of the worst of my limerence my wife was the stable and consistent and constent rock I could rely on. LO was rush. Exciting and new. Normal co-worker interactions were blurred to be something they were not. Perhaps this is your wife’s case?
I have been reading your posts since your first one. But I have been quiet up until now as I do not know if hearing from a married former limerent would be helpful to you. Wishing you the best in recovering yourself and your marriage.
Hi Jay,
“And increasingly I can’t really imagine why I should continue to insist otherwise.”
There you go, read your post again… what’s there to salvage any longer?
She expressed her feelings towards you crystal clear. MHO, she wants to start something new to be happy, and you’re not part of it, for sure. In your opinion, does she, as an autonomous individual, deserve that opportunity, regardless of what you feel for her?
Her behavior towards you is nothing to be proud of, the cruelty is unbelievable, and obviously she wants to hurt you, like there’s some kind of vengeance…??? The prospect of recovering this relationship is very slim. What does she respond to the divorce threat, is she agreeing?
I’m sorry for the ordeal you’re going through. Hope it gets solved soon for the sake of your well being. Best wishes.
She’s amiable until she’s asked about the relationship, and then becomes cruel and contemptuous. She says she doesn’t want to stay married, but won’t agree to divorce. She says things about me and our marriage that simply aren’t true. She says she wants to cherish her time with our daughter, yet reliably spends that time with the LO instead. She says she wants to leave, but her excuses for staying are baseless.
The only consistency is her showing signs of limerence. My only hope is that she can break its spell. But I concede she may have to come find me when she does.
Curse that auto fill!
Yes, that auto fill can be problematic. I’ve almost posted my real name a few times, too. Hopefully Dr L will change it. I think Limerent Emeritus knows how to contact Dr L directly, so maybe he could shoot him a message. I’ll try emailing him.
Being a member of Chumplady’s FB group, your story is very similar to many, where the OH ‘suddenly got a personality transplant’ and became cruel. May want to check it out anyways, the FB group has many voices and stories. You are currently in the phase of ‘untangling the skein’, trying to understand and use logic. However, there is no logic, just contradictions. The more you dig, the more you will see it. And the more pain you will experience, and desperation. At some stage you will need to decide ‘enough is enough’. Be well!
Thank you for the comment, it is actually quite timely. I requested to join the FB page, and until then I’ve been looking over the website.
I’m typically as cerebral as they come, having read every comment and followed every link provided by the people who have been kind enough to offer their best advice and encouragement.
But I think that “paralysis by analysis” has kept me flat footed for too long, dwelling too much on hope and sunk costs rather than facts and potential losses. And hope is not a strategy. I have to work with what I have to build the world I want.
One cannot live in two worlds at the same time. I deserve someone who wants to share mine. I would choose my wife to be that someone. She wants another world for herself. And that’s all there is to it.
Thank you.
Don’t forget that your daughter may replay this in the future unless you demonstrate self-care and stand up for what you believe in within your intimate relationship (in this case, your marriage).
Would you be upset on her behalf if someone she loved and committed to treated her the way your wife is treating you? For many, that is the tipping point.
Be well and be kind to yourself on your journey.
Good morning, Jay! How are you doing?
Jay, I would love to hear how you are doing since we last spoke.
I am relatively new to these forums, as a SO of a limerent partner. Reading all of these comments and perspectives has provided me with hope, while simultaneously great sadness. I have done a deep dive to learn how to work through this with my wife, the best that I can. I want to be able to show empathy, compassion, and support, while I am currently dying a little each day.
What Kensa said off the top about not fully comprehending (paraphrasing) how a partner can have these feelings for an LO, and yet still love their SO, truly nails the deep questions I ask every day. We have come through a previous LE in the past, and my wife tells me that she still loves me, and that she is working to get through her current LE. I can see her battling it, and I want to support and love her, as she and our 2 kids mean everything to me. I understand that every time she sees him, she has a relapse, which I have experienced from the other side. The challenge, or one of the challenges is when we are close, and have intimacy, but she has just sought out her LO shortly before/after our time together…is she with me or am I a placeholder? I struggle with all of the good being erased by the knowledge that the LO was contacted during an otherwise period of love and affection. I describe it as being the 3rd person in the room.(Another contributor helped with perspective, truly appreciated, and I am still working through it actually)
I don’t want her to feel shame, only know that I am there for her, as I know she is trying to overcome this. Similar to Jay, I feel it is taking a toll on my health. How limerence is all-encompassing, so is the sense of loss and anxiety for the SO. I am still choosing to be hopeful that we can find our way back.
I love my wife and want to help her in any way I can, I also don’t want to lose myself!
I am grateful for what I am learning from all of you!
Hiya Giovanni,
LEs are not *real*. Marriage/long term commitment is real. Believe that and it will help you through your wife’s addiction.
Her feelings for her LO are just a fog of biochemical cocktail brewed in her brain for a while. Her LO is just a cypher. You are real so you win, hands-down. It may not feel like that all the time, but she is (hopefully) making her way slowly back to reality.
This perspective might help: My LO is truly inferior in every way to my SO. He and I would never work. Since this LE kicked off (my first, in middle age), I look at my SO in wonderment sometimes and its always to make positive comparisons in his favour versus LO. He is my perfect man in every way. And yet I am limerent for someone I find cute but not handsome, clever but not super accomplished, amusing but not laugh out loud hilarious, and besides being all these things, my SO (who does not know about my limerence) does so many thing for me and our family every day, that I am just so grateful for him.
Whereas, my LO and I would not make sense. If a nuclear war wiped every other human away except the two of us, I think we might work [I am not sure why it would require a nuclear apocalypse but it would take something of that magnitude]….
Even at my most intense period of limerence, I knew all of this. I was having 24/7 thoughts about LO, stopped being able to function normally and still I knew nothing was going to happen, deep down. Because me and LO were not a fit.
Many other posters have said that on paper they dont work with their LO. Eventually, when the limerence fades, they may become embarrassed – what did they ever saw in this person, or, mystified as to why they wasted so much emotional energy on them. This will happen for you guys too, if you can bear to support your wife, who is hopefully trying to reduce not just contact but also limerent fantasy (which is the catalyst for the biochemical cocktail of limerent addiction).
It can take time, which is hard, but she will come around.
Hi Bewitched,
I needed to hear that more than I can say! Thank you so much for taking the time to share this perspective.
“LEs are not *real*. Marriage/long term commitment is real. Believe that and it will help you through your wife’s addiction.
Her feelings for her LO are just a fog of biochemical cocktail brewed in her brain for a while. Her LO is just a cypher. You are real so you win, hands-down. It may not feel like that all the time, but she is (hopefully) making her way slowly back to reality.”
I have days where I have the strength and resilience to be there and hold things together, and then out of nowhere, I have days when I spiral and feel all hope is lost and completely untethered. So far, I can’t predict which will come. My heart breaks sitting across the table from her, and then all I want to do is hold her and know that we will be alright, maybe stronger for this! Right now there is a huge void and I don’t what can fill it, or how long I can feel this.
I hope that she feels supported and willing to be honest with me.
This truly helps Bewitched, thank you!
Hi Giovanni,
I’m sorry you’re going through this very difficult time. I have described many of the emotions that the SO of the limerent goes through in my posts above.
I do want to tell you that it does get better with time, provided you and your SO are both honest with your emotions and you both want your marriage to thrive.
It’s been almost 2.5 years since my husband disclosed his feelings about LO to me. We have not only recovered, but in many ways our marriage is stronger. That’s not to say I’m grateful for the LE. It’s been very painful but it’s possible to get to the other side.
To this day, however, I have terrible days when I, like you, become untethered. I think it’s normal. Being the SO of a limerent is like having PTSD. There will be times you are triggered and you’ll find yourself back to when you first discovered your spouse’s LE. But the gaps between the triggered days grow larger and larger so you have mostly good days. It’s a 2 steps forward, 1 step back type of progress, but you’ll make progress.
Hi @Bewitched,
Sounds like you’ve been doing really well in this situ to priortise your SO. You mention you’ve had the (familiar) 24/7 intrusive LO thoughts, yet your SO is not aware. How do you manage it, to keep that at bay enough to not expose him?
I’m limerent and been struggling with this for months. Others here would disagree but I see no point exposing my SO while I try to work through it, fight the LE and do the right thing by her. But boy is it hard to hold off the intrusive thoughts and be properly present. I also find I need more alone time to process the LE, let the emotions wash over me, read helpful stuff on here to keep me on track, etc, as well as the fact I am unavoidably exposed to my LO quite a bit. I think my SO knows something is off with me and could figure it out if it goes on too long – I normally blame other things like work pressure and tiredness. But it can get exhausting!
@giovanni I am another caught in the midst of this on the limerent side and want to come out of it still with my SO. Please take heart that many of us know that even though our brains have hijacked us with thoughts of an LO, we realise it isn’t real, or at least not as real as what we have with our SO and want to preserve in the end. It is hellish on both sides I’m sure – yours more so – well done for fighting the good fight with your SO and keep going!
Dear Lim-a-rant,
I sympathise greatly.
To answer your question:
“You mention you’ve had the (familiar) 24/7 intrusive LO thoughts, yet your SO is not aware. How do you manage it, to keep that at bay enough to not expose him?”
My SO couldn’t have failed to know that something was going on with me. The thing was, I had very traumatic immediate family health issues that were going on for three years, ultimately resulting in two deaths, but in the most prolonged and agonising way possible. I think my SO put all my strange behaviour down to that.
As you said:
“I also find I need more alone time to process the LE, let the emotions wash over me, read helpful stuff on here to keep me on track, etc, as well as the fact I am unavoidably exposed to my LO quite a bit.”
Yes, this was the most obvious manifestation for me too, I really needed to be alone a lot more. What I did to compensate was: I showered my SO with more physical affection than usual (elevated libido helped), I was more vocally appreciative of him, and I was exercising a lot and looking better than ever, so I think he was kindof pleased with this turn of events (?). I put a lot of effort into connecting with him more than usual, basically. He is very perceptive and he watches me like a hawk, so who knows what he made of it. But he respects my privacy, there are no thought police in our house, which I love about him. As a middle aged woman, I demand the right to my private thoughts and my own little mysteries. That’s just the way it is.
The ironic part, for me, is that this LE hit me in mid life during a period of extraordinary stress and trauma. My LO was a reaction to that. Instead of engaging with the family-wide mess going on around me, I escaped into limerent fantasy. I think that’s why my LE has been so stubborn, so lengthy (5 years), and why I am finding it very hard to let go. But I have to credit this LE with getting me through one of the worst periods in my life. (Bearing in mind that women my age also go through major re-evaluation and prioritisation due to hormonal changes etc. which – folks – are not to be sniffed-at, but which can make you stronger).
Every marriage is different and some people are more analytical about LE and can step back from it more. But I believe that if the foundations are strong and if you really want to stay married, its very very possible to put LE into context, deal with it, come out stronger and write it down to one of the things in life’s rich tapestry that is just a spectacular experience.
One last thing, like you I never thought disclosing to my SO would help. Never. I think, for us (and every marriage is different), it would just have taken away his innocence.
All strength to you!
Everything LaR and Bewitched are saying is true of me as well. So interesting the similar tracks that limerence can take.
We are all in this together!
Your perspective really touch me. You are really in pain right now. I am rooting for you and your family.
One way to see it is that your spouse is battling an addiction. Like drugs or alcohol. Their struggle is against the biochemical pull of the substance. It doesn’t mean they love or value you less.
Hi Transferent,
I truly appreciate your words, and thank you very much for the support!
The more I read and learn from people here, the more hopeful I am that I can understand what is happening and how to keep loving. I believe that I am strong enough (most of the time) to be there with her when she comes through this. I don’t want to give up!
It happened again. My wife doesn’t know about this one. 6 months of friendship and i felt it. I nipped it in the bud, what a lovely friend, this wasn’t love like the last time. Just jealousy creeping in when I see that little green dot over their name in the chat. They are online and so is another, and i know they are playing games together. This unhealthy kind should be stopped. IMHO I only know one way to do that, pull the plug. So i did. I ended the friendship. There were a few exchanges to say i wasn’t coping well beforehand but i don’t think they saw it coming. I’m not looking for validation of my actions here. But if anyone has acted swiftly to avoid months of heartache down the line. Id like to hear your story. It may offer me some comfort. Im hurting hard right now.
You did the right thing.
@Don’t want to fight the tide,
Yes, I am currently acting swiftly to not let a glimmer person start another fire in my heart. We had some great conversations, he fits all my visual beauty criteria, he definitely looks at me a lot, etc… and therefore I have to now avoid becoming limerent for him with every ounce of my being. But since the direct contact only lasted a couple weeks or so, it is getting easier to let it go as time goes on.
I only know this works best for me because, even with limerence at it’s best like when I was single and had these passionate, exciting relationships, it would be great for two years (pair-bonding time), and then it would fade to normalcy… so I know logically that the reality is that even if I were to give into these experiences, in the end they always turn out the same. My brain and my heart duke it out all the time; I am trying to let my brain win these ones from here on out 💙
its not about the beauty requirements for me, it’s about the person. I was convinced this would never ever happen again under any circumstances. Having my first occurrence last year at 52 now 53 and lonely in marriage. I need friends. When find them i self-destruct like this with limerence. Its exhausting looking for friends so when i find a good id really like this not to happen. How?
@I don’t want to fight the tide,
Are you able to find a way to connect with other men as friends? What are your interests and abilities?
When I feel lonely I connect with my lady friends — having male friends isn’t something that works for me, it’s too easy/common to get attached inappropriately.
Hi SO Miranda,
Thank you so much for reaching out and sharing your experiences!
It helps incredibly to hear that it is possible to not only get through this storm, but to somehow come out stronger! Deep down, I think that we can get there.
Like you said, there is a PTSD that comes with it, and I know that if we can make it through, that there will be good days and days when the struggle is all consuming. I am trying to brace myself for the road ahead, and know that I will spiral at times, but that your outcome does exist, and is possible if we are honest, communicate and stay the course. I am very grateful for your openess and support!
I believe we have a strong relationship outside of this LE, and hope that we can follow that path.
I miss my love!
Thank you so much
Good morning, Jay! We haven’t heard from you for a while. I would love to see an update from you.
Best wishes!
This thread sure has legs! We may have to have a reunion a few years from now and see how everything turned out for everyone. Glad to see I’m in your thoughts and prayers, but I’m glad I let others take up the conversation for a while, it’s been enlightening reading and catching up.
Immediately after my last post, my personal therapist told me more about his own research into limerence. He also announced that one of his colleagues had actually treated limerence for many years, and said he would see if he might give me a consultation. His colleague described limerence as (I’m paraphrasing) akin to stubbing one’s toe — sudden and intense, blocking out everything else until it disappears as unexpectedly as it began. He also provided an exercise he prescribes to limerent patients which I took the liberty to forward to our couples therapist.
More than one MH member suggested I was making decisions about my marriage weighed down by years of unresolved grief. I wholeheartedly agreed, and on their recommendation, I signed up for a grief retreat that I am very much looking forward to. When I met the lawyer that Monday, I told her I didn’t want a divorce just yet, but wanted to know how to protect myself in case my wife did.
Our couples therapist followed up our intake session with individual sessions for each of us the following week. My wife had her individual session Wednesday, about which I heard nothing. The next day I apologized for dealing with her out of pain and anger, and told her that I unequivocally did not want a divorce. I got the sense she considered that a push, but I expected that. When I met the therapist that Friday, she told me my wife cracked open just a little during their session together, but it remained to be seen whether it would open wider in future sessions.
She also disclosed that my wife really hates my father. I’ve always suspected it, and quite frankly never held it against her; he’s a controlling and manipulative bastard, especially after his stroke, and he deserves all the scorn he receives. But I think it points directly to how a lack of communication has brought us to this point. I think she’s always feared I would become like him, and she only needs to see a vague similarity in me to reinforce that fear. And since she went limerent, it’s become an irrational fixation permeating her every complaint.
My wife stonewalls and I’m defensive. Dr. Gottman, where are you? Our therapist told us she aims to improve our communication with each other, ostensibly to smooth the path to an amicable separation. But I left my session thinking she really was sympathetic to my plight, and that by helping us both learn to trust and speak openly with each other, she might actually put us on a path to fix things.
In the meantime, while our time together, although limited, is relatively peaceful, it seems the limerent spouse doesn’t wait overly long to push the standing spouse closer to his limits. One day she’s agreeable, maybe even pleasant, and then the next day she launches into some manic tirade. Pull, push, pull, push – it’s the kind of fatigue that will make a bridge buckle. But hopefully I can find a respite at the grief retreat next week, and then in the Grand Canyon later this month. I wonder if she’ll miss me.
Thanks for the update, Jay. The stubbed toe analogy about limerence makes sense. Thanks for sharing it. You mentioned the Grand Canyon. I guess you have a vacation coming up. Are you going down into the canyon? I’ve heard it gets very hot during the summer at the bottom of the canyon. I was there earlier this week and it was already hot at the bottom of the canyon. Are you doing rim to rim? Are you backpacking or doing it in a day? I want to do it in one day, but the rest of my group wants to backpack it, so hopefully I’ll do it twice soon. My SO is willing to do it in one day with me. It has been on my bucket list for a long time.
I am curious about what you said about your dad. Do you know if you are like him? Sometimes we pick up our parents’ bad habits. Of course, you might not be like your dad. My SO’s dad has one negative behavior that grates on my SO and his brother so they both do the opposite of that behavior. It isn’t a big deal, in my opinion, but it is interesting to see them both try diligently not to be like their dad in that one way.
It’s good to hear from you.
Hi Lovisa! Heading back to Arizona in two weeks – four of us will do North Rim to South Rim in a day and yes, it will be hot at the bottom. Then we’ll join 20 more friends backpacking to Havasupai Falls. Not quite as hot, and we get to cool off in the pools! Happy to pass on to you any lessons learned before your trip….
As for my father, I was too close growing up to see what others may have seen clearly from the outside, but it all came into sharp focus after his stroke. My wife has always believed there was something not right with him, and it turns out she was correct. Doctors think he may have been sick for decades before his stroke, he just hid it exceedingly well.
I’ve since taken some assessments to discover that I did indeed learn some controlling behaviors from him; however, I never knew they were controlling, and never behaved with that intention. Of course, that wouldn’t matter to the person who feels controlled…..
My wife was fiercely independent when I met her, and I’m sure my dad triggered the hell out of her. But I suspect she has issues of her own that make her so fearful of feeling controlled. I hope our therapist can dig into that, and also help me mitigate my behaviors that trigger her.
I would love some tips about rim to rim, Jay. I am very jealous of your upcoming trip. My LO3 did rim to rim to rim last fall a week after I ran a 50-mile ultra. I was jealous of him, too. My body was pretty beat up from my ultra, so I got quite worried about my LO3. I knew he would do a comparable mileage with much more elevation gain and minimal support. Anyway, they did it in 16 hours if I remember right. They are all trail runners so I’m sure they ran some of it.
I am impressed with your willingness to accept that you may have picked up some of your dad’s controlling behaviors. It’s especially impressive that you want to do better.
Too bad about your dad’s stroke. Is that what you were talking about when you said that you had family stress prior to your wife’s limerence?
Thanks for the update!
Couples therapist told me tonight that my wife is in fact going to leave. Confirmed with my wife, she says we should get divorced because it’s the right thing to do. I asked her why and she said she doesn’t see us getting back together. I asked her why and she said because she doesn’t want to. I told her I don’t want a divorce, I don’t believe in divorce, and she’s going to have to be the one that files.
She can file and eventually she’ll get it. I tried holding up the process too and didn’t cooperate. But I never fought her about anything. 2 years later she got everything and about all I got was a curio cabinet, my tool box and my golf clubs..
Now 16 years later, being divorced still sucks and I often remind her of it. Although we are friends.. I guess.
I’m sorry, Jay. That must have been painful to hear.
Hi Jay,
Sorry to hear this. I admire your strong will to get your marriage back, but from my limited knowledge of what’s going on I’d say that you should let go now. I think from this point on you will waste life energy if you still try to get her back. She doesn’t want it and I have to say, at some point you have to take her at her word.
She’s the one who wants a divorce so she should file it, but I think you shouldn’t put energy into holding her back, but put it into healing yourself and planning a new life without her.
Sorry if I’m blunt, but I think she’s made herself very clear, and it won’t help not to take her seriously. If she will get doubts and come back (doesn’t sound likely though), it won’t happen because you will have tried to hold her back. I think your work is done, you should let her go and it’s up to her to come back if this is what’s meant to happen.
I might be completely wrong, of course.
Jay
I am sorry. From the opposite perspective of yours I took my wife down this path because of another woman. We talked about separation more than once. I was always the one that brought it up. She was always willing to work through it all. But I was senile over this woman. Yeah age had most, if not everything to do with it. Obsessing over a woman much younger than myself. It is terrible what I put my wife through. But she fought for us both. And when my head finally came out of the clouds, I realized what an amazing woman I was taking advantage of. I can’t offer any real advice. Just wanted you to get limerence from the limerent’s perspective. I make no excuse for my behavior, neuroscience or not. But however your life goes on Jay, I wish you the best.
Hi Jay,
I’m sorry your wife is deciding for divorce instead of recovering the relationship in spite of your great efforts to save the marriage. It must be very hard for you and daughter. When someone wants to go, release them, no matter the pain. You’d recover and be able to start again with someone new that really cares for you. Keep your hopes high, you’ll see , the future is full of surprises.
Now is the time to think of yourself and invest your time and energy in improving yourself in all aspects of your life, going to the gym, eating well, stronger relationships with your siblings and parents, friends; going back to school, hobbies, spiritual journey, etc. You got to get occupied doing something, purpose living.
There’s always someone else that can fill that void. You’d need time for healing and grieving the relationship, but it will pass.
Listen to this video:
“The signs of a doomed relationship/Esther Perel
Site : Jordan Harbinger S.
Also:
“Esther Perel with Chris Cuomo: The state of affairs, rethinking infidelity “
Site: the 92nd St., N.Y.
Wishing you the very best, courage and strength.
Jay, will you listen to this and see if it holds truth for your relationship with your wife?
https://youtu.be/ol5p7ODfQZQ?si=0Fb7n8HjxvvD9KB6
Hi Jay, I’ve been following your story for a while. Your determination to stick by your wife – no matter what she does – gives me hope in my own marriage.
“He also provided an exercise he prescribes to limerent patients which I took the liberty to forward to our couples therapist.”
^^ Could you tell us more about this exercise? I’m intrigued, sounds like a limerence cure.
Thank you for the feedback, I’m glad you can derive some benefit.
The exercise in question isn’t a cure, but rather is supposed to help identify changes in behavior before and after limerence. Paraphrasing, it basically looks at one’s values and beliefs, and then works into actual memories to set the truest identity. Then compare to recent actions to identify the shift and help the patient see the change.
Jay, I was thinking of you on my run this morning. There are many things that I would love to ask you. Some aspects of your story are a mystery to me. Are you open to questions?
Sure, but don’t know how to connect offline (including Grand Canyon tips)! Ask here?
Jay,
There used to be a LwL Discord channel. I don’t know if it’s still up. You can send PMs to others there.
Thanks Limerent Emeritus, but I don’t know how to use Discord.
Yes, I’ll ask questions here if it’s okay with you. Thank you for your willingness to participate. (I want to hear all about your rim to rim adventure, too).
This first question is the one that has been on my mind from the start, but I feel weird asking it. I don’t want to trigger any big feelings in you and I certainly don’t want to plant ideas in your mind. Seriously, if this is too much, please just walk away and don’t answer.
Here goes…
I’ve heard that many betrayed spouses are plagued by images of their spouse engaging in physical intimacy with their affair partner. Have you experienced that? Like, have you had any nightmares of them together?
I’m so sorry if I’ve overstepped my boundaries by asking this question, Jay. I understand if you prefer not to answer.
I’ve never been plagued with such images. My wife told me early on it wasn’t a primarily physical relationship (which is actually another symptom of limerence.) She also assured me that I compared favorably in that area, as luckily we were always exceedingly compatible together. Small consolation now, though…..
True that it is no consolation, but I am glad that you haven’t experienced such things. Thank you for answering my question.
Do you realize it was 110 degrees Fahrenheit at the base of the Grand Canyon yesterday? Holy cow. What is your strategy to avoid heat related injuries when you have your adventure? Are you doing it in one day?
Btw, I prefer to do it in one day, but two friends have said they will only do it as a backpacking trip. I’m open to that, too, but I prefer a one day adventure.
One day. First time I hiked rim to rim, it was 55 when I started and over 100 on the canyon floor. This time we plan to start as early as 2am to avoid peak heat. I plan to cover up from the sun and have a cooling towel on hand. We’ll also make sure to have enough salt!
But one always wonders if one trained enough, and the canyon takes no prisoners. It’s still a very long way: Going north to south, it’s 14 mi down and then 10 mi up. I don’t envy those who can get a camping permit and take an extra day.
“… the first time [you did] rim to rim…”. I am so jealous. This will be my first time.
I like your plan. Where are you staying before your adventure and are you catching a shuttle for the return?
Why North to South?
I think I am fully trained, but I worry about my SO. His longest run was 16 miles. It had vertical and he did it well, but I would like to see him do a 50k ultra or at least a marathon before we tackle rim to rim.
Do you plan to post your experience on the rim to rim facebook group or AllTrails? I would love to read about it. I already know your real name so you wouldn’t have to direct me to your post from LwL. I don’t actually use facebook because I was stalked years ago and the guy used my husband’s facebook account to track me which was incredibly creepy. I can use someone else’s facebook account to see your post if you do it there.
I need to provide some background for this next question. My close friends are having marriage problems. Both of them have opened up about it with me at different times. I think I have an idea of what is happening. The husband feels confused, mistrusted, rejected and insulted by some resent behavior changes in his wife. His feelings make sense to me because his wife’s behavior would trigger those feelings in anyone. The wife’s behavior changed because she realized that she wasn’t advocating for herself and now she is trying to learn how to speak up for what she wants. She isn’t good at it yet. I think in time she will learn to stand up for herself without being insensitive to other people in the process. Right now, she has a “screw you” attitude which is out of character for her. The husband didn’t even know that his wife wasn’t advocating for her wants and needs prior to this change. I’ll give an example. They went on a vacation of a lifetime that most people would love. The wife didn’t want to go, she hated it, and she still talks negatively of the experience. If the same trip happened earlier in their marriage, the wife wouldn’t have admitted to her dislike of the trip and the husband would have believed that the vacation was a success.
Anyway, I wonder if your wife had complaints about her relationship with you that she didn’t address. I wonder if this change in her behavior feels like a new development to you, but maybe it was something she wrestled with for many years without saying anything. Has she told you anything that she wants you to change to make your relationship better?
Let me also tell you that the husband who I spoke of has no idea what his wife wants him to change. She hasn’t told him anything specific. He went to a therapist because she told him to “work on himself.” He told the therapist that he is eager to work on himself, but he doesn’t know what needs work because his wife hasn’t told him. If you can’t name the problem, you are not alone. My friend, the wife, had trouble naming the problem too. The best I could get from her is that she feels like her husband is controlling. I suspect that she is overwhelmed by her tendency towards perfectionism and she is blaming it on her husband. He does not hold her to the high standards that she puts on herself. Her family of origin does that to her, but her husband definitely doesn’t. That is my best guess at this point. If I’m totally honest, I am biased towards the husband in this case so my perspective might be skewed.
Anyway, has your wife communicated her complaints to you?
Answer to Grand Canyon question: Parking on South Rim and then shuttling to North Rim for overnight at the Lodge. Our car will be waiting for us when we’re done walking.
We went north-south last time also – the North Rim is exceedingly remote, with very few hikers and very scarce resources. The South Rim has vastly more foot traffic, with more day hikers, resources, and services not only in case of trouble, but for winding down after a very very long walk. Including ice cream, if we finish early enough!
And if we arrive too late, we can still drive to town, get some food, check into our hotel, and hit the hot tub!
Our relationship has always been marvelous, or so I thought. We have always communicated with each other exceedingly well in all 27 years of our lives together. But my wife is conflict avoidant and tends to bottle things up only to blow up every few years or so.
Her complaints often include a couple of specific behaviors she complains about, and I confess that I’ve not always been attentive to those complaints. Instead I’ve taken a defensive posture against what seem like sudden and seemingly arbitrary attacks.
My family of origin suffered immense trauma over the last few years. Like tabloid level trauma. My wife urged me to seek help, to work on myself, but never told me what needed working on. I had (have?) some mommy issues, but my wife never pointed me in any direction. I’ve independently identified some controlling behaviors, although I was never consciously trying to control anyone; indeed, my wife has always been very assertively independent, and I’ve always enthusiastically encouraged her independence. But those were never the behaviors she complained about anyway. Even now she still says I should work on myself without offering any additional input. (Of course now she’s limerent, and doesn’t often report reality accurately anyway.)
I just attended a grief retreat this weekend, and it occurred to me that I have never seen my wife shed more than a few tears over the death of her mother, and none at all over the decline of her father or the emotional burdens she experiences daily as a hospice coordinator. And although we are in couples therapy, it seems there should be some attention paid to her unhealthy coping skills.
Jay,
“I have never seen my wife shed more than a few tears over the death of her mother”
Was your wife’s mother a good parent? I cried quite a bit over my mother but not my father. He was not a good parent. I mourned that our relationship couldn’t be better, but on some level it was a relief because I could finally let go of that little bit of false hope things would improve.
My wife loved her mother in spite of her troubles. She was a brilliant and spirited woman raised under the thumb of a domineering German father who thought women should just make babies. So she went to Berkeley, got a 4.0 in computers, and spent the rest of her life trying to prove him wrong.
And picked up a bottle along the way. So my wife grew up taking care of things her mom should have, including her mom. Which is too bad, because they were extremely close when she was sober.
She was happy, sad, generous and mean to extremes. Her three marriages were not extremely happy because she always wanted to dominate the man. And my wife’s first stepfather fondled her once(?) as a teen with no action from mom.
I met her mom only shortly before she started her long torturous decline. I saw how she suffered, and how she made my wife suffer. My wife stepped in when our daughter started to suffer. Her mom died from liver failure six months later.
For what it’s worth, the woman was an absolute fool for love. Smart as she was, she made many truly abysmal choices, especially in her third marriage. She worked so hard to leave something for her kids, but they will likely get nothing.
What a waste! 4.0 in computers at Berkley all washed down the drain by alcohol? 🙁 I’ve never met her but feeling the loss.
Jay,
When my alcoholic mother accidentally checked herself on her mother’s sofa, I didn’t feel regret or remorse, I felt relief.
She literally took off when I was 8 but she’d functionally left a lot earlier. When she reappeared when I was in HS, I resented her for it. I was her only child and I was going to get saddled with her. But, she resolved that for me.
LO #2 was one of the most even keeled people that I’ve ever met. In our 5 years together, I only remember her raising her voice to me once and getting really curt once. We were together 4 years and I had asked her to marry me. I don’t know if she shed a single tear over us. I cried buckets.
I told the therapist that I never saw the faintest hint of regret or remorse in LO #2. The therapist said that was because there wasn’t any. The therapist was convinced LO #2 was a borderline.
In contrast, LO #4 told me she was crying or had been crying at least 4 times.
Keep working on yourself. Only ~10% of an iceberg is visible above the surface and it’s not what you see that sinks you.
Wow, Jay, I am speechless. Marcia and Limerent Emeritus have some helpful insights. Your situation sounds hard.
Thanks for sharing.
Hi Jay,
What a great idea! I hadn’t thought to leave a car and take the shuttle before the hike. It makes sense. My father-in-law wants to be our shuttle driver so we don’t really need to leave a car waiting for us.
I’ve never been to the South side. The North is closer to my house and close to a town where I like to vacation so I haven’t had a reason to visit the south rim.
My husband and I groomed some trails on Saturday. We cleared fallen limbs and cut low-hanging branches that could poke someone in the eye. The trails were mostly cleared before we started. We did 11.5 miles and over 5,000 feet of vertical gain. Afterwards, I noticed that our elevation gain was comparable to the Grand Canyon rim to rim. My husband said, “You mean if we do 10 more flat miles, then we’ve done the same mileage and elevation gain as rim to rim?” I said, “Actually, I think we need another 13 miles, but yes, you are correct.” For the next several hours I had to talk myself out of doing a half marathon in the same day because it was sooooo tempting. We had plans that I would have had to cancel so I didn’t do it. My husband was quite sore the next day. I was a little sore, but no more than usual. I’m always a little sore from my running habit.
Thanks for sharing your plan. It sounds great!
Dealing with limerence in marriage.
By mere chance I stumbled on the following site and it scared the hell out of me:
Site: Benijay crime
Fatal votes – true crime
The love triangle sometimes has dire consequences…
Correction: Fatal vows/ true crime
Videos
Jay, I have a long run on my calendar this morning: 11 miles. I’m not sure if I’ll just do 11 or push it to a half marathon distance. I might have my husband drop me off up the canyon so I can run down it. Downhill running is my weakness. Pathetic right? I am bad at downhill for some reason. Maybe it’s my form. Maybe it’s because I have to fight the feeling of falling the whole time. I wish I could just enjoy it like everyone else. I think I’ve improved a little, but it’s something I need to work on because I hold the group back during downhill. They’re always surprised because I’m fast on uphill so they’re like, “downhill is easy, why are you so slow, Lovisa?” My slow pace isn’t a fitness issue, it’s my gosh darn fear of heights or rather my fear of falling. I am jealous of people who don’t have this stupid fear. I will probably work on it today.
How are you doing? Have you had your Grand Canyon adventure? I hope you have a great day!
My adventure is all over but the shouting. Successfully completed rim to rim last week with friends, then spent a few days in Havasupai Falls that weekend with more friends. The photos don’t do it justice. Almost incomparable beauty. For the whole week I hiked 73 miles. I want new feet for Christmas.
The grief retreat included a marvelous lady who was once the limerent spouse herself. She said she had done a lot of drugs growing up, but limerence was more powerful than any of them. She also warned me not to trust a single thing my wife says. That context makes everything so much easier!
Combined with the outcome of that retreat, I am feeling much more confident, secure, and at ease. And it’s translating into a lot of very favorable attention. I’m not used to it, but it gives me great hope for the future.
Jay, you did it! Nice! Don’t get me started about Havasupai Falls. Ever since my kids’ pediatrician showed me pictures from his stay at Havasupai Falls, I’ve wanted to go there. Someday I will see it in person. It sounds like you had a great adventure and you are in a good place with your current struggle. That is good news.
You made me laugh when you said “ I want new feet for Christmas.” I guess you got a few blisters. I use toe socks to prevent foot injuries. Injinji is my favorite brand. To be honest, I have a sock drawer full of nothing but Injinji because they work so well. They are pricey, but worth it. A friend of mine leads canyoneering adventures and she says that as long as your socks aren’t cotton, your feet will be fine. I’m pretty sure that none of my Injinji socks are cotton so maybe that is the reason they work. I don’t know, but I like having happy feet so I use Injinji.
It’s good to hear from you!
Actually no blisters at all! I used either Injinjis or regular liners and added light padded socks for cushioning, but 73 miles is a lot of abuse, and my tootsies are mighty sore. I plan to post the details of my week online soon.
Recent changes to my outlook follow previous dramatic changes to my physical appearance. I got myself into wicked good shape after D-day (totally holistically, by the way) but only recently has it garnered any attention. I think it’s just the way I carry myself now. People guess I’m 15 years younger, women have started to notice it, and men have started to ask about it.
I’ve heard many times that my wife will be the last to notice any changes. She has actually accused me of “window dressing” – that is, going through the motions to merely look as though I’m changing.
But recently she said something that proved she’s starting to see me a little differently. Soon I hope she’ll see everything everyone else is telling me they’re seeing.
Oh, your poor tootsies. You are right, 73 miles is a lot. My LO3 knows that I have an interest in foot owies following a long race. His friend beat up his feet during a 100-mile race a few months ago. LO3 sent pictures to me. It’s the worst I’ve ever seen. I am amazed that one race can hurt feet so much. Eight of his toes were bleeding at the nail bed. Yikes. He must have recovered decently because he has been running with LO3 a few times since that race.
Anyway, congratulations on your accomplishment. So cool!
You are lookin good! That’s great. You’re getting attention from the ladies. Lucky guy! The timing couldn’t be better. Maybe your wife will notice, maybe not, at least you feel good and the other ladies are noticing.
Hi Jay, I hope you are well. I am sore. I summited a mountain on Thursday then did my long run today. My body hurts all over. It’s the good kind of pain.
It was so good to hear that things were looking up for you when you last updated us. I hope you are still feeling positive.
Dr L posted something that I thought you might like to see. It is a survey for spouses of limerents. I think you should check it out when you have time.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-project-dealing-with-limerence-in-marriage/
Best wishes!
Thanks for checking up and thanks for the link, I completed the questions. Right now my main concern is whether she’ll come back, and how that will affect my life plans going forward. Perhaps unsurprisingly, I would wave my magic wand to have her come to her senses. That would be the best and easiest solution.
Today I realized that the grief retreat was only three weeks ago. I first noticed changes two weeks ago at our daughter’s graduation, and they were validated last week on my trip. It’s like all my progress learning and healing was slow and incremental until the retreat catalyzed and clarified everything. Evidently it was a more powerful weekend than I ever imagined.
Today is my last day of recovery from my trip. Thankfully I have no injuries, blisters, or sunburn to contend with. Tomorrow I start prepping for a metric century (62km) bike ride in August I might do if I’m not traveling for work.
I posted about my R2R hike on Grand Canyon Rim to Rim on FB if you want to read about it. Hopefully you can find it, please post a comment there if you do. I have yet to post about Havasupai Falls on a different page, not sure when I’ll get to it….
Hi Jay, thanks for answering Dr L’s survey. I understand that you would like your wife to return to her senses, but I can’t wrap my mind around something. How will you move forward as her husband after all that she has done? I mean, let’s pretend like she came to her senses, apologized, and put some effort into repairing your relationship with her. Will you be able to forgive what she has done? How?
I look forward to reading about your adventure on the FB page. I don’t use facebook so I have to find someone who will help me access that page. I think my hubby is a member of that group.
I have been looking at rim-to-rim planning today. My group is 6 people: 4 men and 2 women. I am getting frustrated with how hard it is to get reservations below the rim. I really wish my group was willing to do the trip in one day, but unfortunately, my husband and I are the only two who want to do it in one day. I’ll keep trying to get reservations. If I can’t get them for this fall, I think my husband and I will do it as a day trip and then we will keep trying to get reservations for our group later. Do you think it would be nice to go down South Kaibab camp at the site near Phantom Ranch then go to Cottonwood and camp there for a night then ascend North Kaibab? That’s kind of what I am aiming to do with my group. They are worried about their fitness abilities. I’m testing most of them on a training hike in a few weeks. We shall see how it goes. I have a silly question. I did a few miles of the North Kiabab trail and it didn’t trigger my darn fear of heights too bad. Is the South side similar to the North side? Do you think the heights are worse on the South rim side?
Have a great week!
People I tell about my situation often ask about trust. But people I ask who know about limerence, especially those who have had it themselves, describe it as similar to an addiction to the most powerful high they could imagine.
I’ve dealt with addicts before, good people who often behaved destructively while under the influence. They were still good people after they beat their addictions. My mother was one who prevailed. I hope my wife will too.
It would be different if my wife were not at heart a good person. But until this happened, she was the most scrupulously honest and caring person I ever met. The fact that she is so completely different is why I hope she will revert as soon as the limerence fades. And I’m told I have good reason to hope.
As many have told me, forgiveness is something I do for myself. My wife has openly questioned whether she can forgive herself for what she has done. I think we both have a lot of work to do to put things back together. She may not want to, and it may not work. But we’ll have to take it one step at a time.
Ask the trails are about six feet wide and we’ll maintained. Bright Angel seemed fine going up, not sure about going down – but I have it on good authority that while the South Kaibab trail has the best views, it may well trigger your fear of heights. I’ve hiked down the first mile where the switchbacks are daunting, but I guess there’s little to either side of the trail along sections farther down.
Although I never sought a camping permit below the rim, I’m told you have to plan many months in advance. I also wonder if larger groups might be harder to accommodate all at once.
Same is true for R2R. Our group was for this time, but the prospects of adding a fifth raised issues with lodging, rental car, etc. It’s also important to be of similar fitness levels, otherwise you risk getting strung out or isolated on the trail.
Jay
I have quite the opposite situation. Just last week it was addressed to me by my wife that I spoke her name repeatedly in my sleep. With other less than polite context. I don’t remember all the details but I did remember on my trek to work that I did remember saying her name in my sleep and was more than ready to have to address it when I got home from work that night.
Eventually that evening I brought it up with my wife and thought I was ready to hear the context and details. I was not ready. It was shameful what I said. The thoughts were sexual. She still slept in the bed with me after that conversation. Though I slept with my head at the foot of the bed.
I have a very forgiving wife and I don’t know why. It has been two years since I saw/talked to her last. This should be over. I am trying to do all the right things to forget her. And then $hit like this happens. What words do I have to ask my wife? What is it I can explain to her to stay? Nothing. There are no words. And yet she is still here. As the guilty party I most admire your ever persistent patience with your wife. I know I am thankful for my wife. Despite my stupid brain.
Jay, your ability to forgive is inspiring. You are correct to view limerence as an addiction. I am in awe of what you said.
There is a point at which our loved ones’ behavior is too troublesome for us to handle. If you get to a point where you can’t continue on this incredible path of reunification, well… I don’t think anyone would blame you if you need to shift your strategy to self-preservation.
I would like to point out that although Adam feels guilty for his limerence, he never cheated on his wife. When he realized that his thoughts were consumed by another woman, he took action to fix the problem. He asked for help. He addressed his problems with the LwL community. He makes himself out to be more guilty than he deserves and I don’t want there to be confusion for anyone who reads this thread.
Jay, you are amazing! Keep up the good work!
Jay, I read your Facebook post. I want to talk about it, but not too much because I don’t want to give your identity away on LwL. I want to respect your privacy and the privacy of your wife. I didn’t “comment” or “like” your post because I don’t want to give my identity away either. Sorry to be so difficult. I like the anonymity of LwL.
Your journey sounds lovely! I see that it wasn’t your first r2 experience but it was your most successful journey. I’m glad that you didn’t have a repeat of last time. The details you provided were very helpful for me to plan my own r2 experience. Thank you for sharing! Your pictures are amazing! The heights trigger fear in me even when it’s just a picture. I noticed that the trail is wide. I can handle the heights if I know where to put my feet. I get woozy if there is a steep drop and the trail gets narrow. Ugh! If I don’t know where to step next, I get panicked. Your pictures make it look like the trail is wide the whole time. Whew! That helps. What a wonderful experience. You needed it. I’m glad that you already have your next adventure planned, too.
I want to tell you something silly. One time I set out to run eight miles but I ran twenty. I didn’t have enough electrolytes for twenty miles so I licked my arms. I know it sounds gross, but desperate people do desperate things. It tasted so good because my body craved the salt that I lost during that run and my arms were salty. It was a night run so no one saw me licking my arms. Anyway, I don’t know if that’s helpful, but it was a way that I replenished electrolytes when I needed to.
Thank you so much for writing a detailed account of your r2 experience. I enjoyed reading it!
Sorry you didn’t leave a comment, I hoped we could communicate more openly elsewhere. Out of respect for the webmaster, I don’t want to digress from limerence on this site any more than I already have. Good luck with your future hiking plans!
That makes sense. I’m sorry that I disappointed you. We couldn’t communicate on Facebook anyway because I don’t use it. It looks like you have a good support network which delights me because you need it. You are also a good looking man and that will be helpful if things don’t work out with your wife.