Long time readers of the blog will have noticed that I periodically reflect on how to best manage the site, given the multiple roles it plays. This is another of those posts.
First, I want Living with Limerence to be a primary source of key information about limerence – an evidence-based catalogue of what limerence is, how it arises from fundamental neuroscience, and the practical effects it has on people going through it.
Second, the site has a self-help aspect, for those who are trapped in an unwanted limerence episode and need to re-establish psychological equilibrium. So, I also blog about the tools and strategies for de-escalating the symptoms and integrating limerence into life in a healthier way.
Third, I blog about myself and my experiences, my life philosophy for living with purpose, and why (I believe) that is the most effective long-term solution to limerence.
Last, but certainly not least, it is a community for others – to visit, learn, reflect, share their own experiences and contribute to the fruitful (and sometimes funny) discussions that arise from those of us living with limerence.
Ideally, these purposes would work together harmoniously, and when they do the blog motors along nicely, educating and helping people and providing a sense of community. Sometimes, though, something ineffable shifts, and I get the sense that these goals are working at cross purposes.
Recently, I’ve had several emails from community members asking to increase the number of “recent comments” on the home page, because they are losing track of ongoing discussions. In large part, this is because those discussions range over many posts, and so no-one can feasibly keep track of them all.
I’ve also been struck by the recent series of posts on purposeful living being quickly filled up with discussions about personal limerent experiences… but only a few comments about the topic of the post. For clarity, I am fine with that in principle, and always happy to hear from people about their lives (because people are fascinating), but it does present something of an organisational problem.
If someone has happened upon the site and reads an article about purposeful living, and then jumps into a comment section filled with an ongoing community discussion that makes little sense to them, it would be a bit off-putting.
So, the time has come for a minor reorganisation.
These “coffeehouse” posts are meant as open threads for people to talk about whatever they want, and so are the ideal venue for personal reflections and sharing experiences with friends. Like a real coffeehouse.
I would encourage people to use the latest coffeehouse post as a focal point for open discussions. That should make it a lot easier to keep track of ongoing chats, and not lose the discussion thread as it spreads over the 300+ articles on the site. I’ll post one coffeehouse post a month so that the schedule is predictable and frequent enough to keep up with demand.
To further encourage this focus, I will be turning off comments altogether on some of the “information” articles, and also (if I can get the tech working properly) start moving egregiously off-topic comments from other posts into the coffeehouse.
We’ll see whether this is a good plan, or ends up making things even more complicated, but for now, this is a heads-up on the changes coming and invitation for anyone who has any good ideas about whether this will work to share them in the comments below.
Finally, I’ll end with a nice portentous message too: more changes are coming soon. Some of them big.
“These “coffeehouse” posts are meant as open threads for people to talk about whatever they want, and so are the ideal venue for personal reflections and sharing experiences with friends. Like a real coffeehouse.”
Ah. Very good. I think the guidelines are clear enough. Coffeehouse is the place to socialise and conduct more informal discussions about limerence. 😉
Okay. I’ve thought of a topic that might kick-start some interesting discussion.
Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?
Is there such a thing as false guilt? And, if false guilt is a thing, where does it come from? Does it come from being parentified as a child? Does it come from not spending enough time around peers? Inadequate socialisation?
I’m finding, now that limerence is fading, I’m something I’ve never before been in my life – spontaneous. Especially spontaneous in social situations. Sometimes, the things I say and do surprise even me.
Does anyone else struggle with spontaneity, or feel like they’re meeting a stranger (i,e, themselves) on the rare occasions they do indulge in spontaneity?
I had an LO who told me he enjoyed being spontaneous and that I should “just be myself” (at job interviews, etc). I had no idea what he was talking about. (How can I just be myself? I ‘m not relaxed enough to just be myself!)
Is this the lesson I needed to learn from limerence? How to be spontaneous? And was anxiety, or an overstimulated nervous system, preventing me from being spontaneous in the past? If my LO opened my eyes to the possibility of spontaneity, then his example ultimately changed my life for the better. Maybe, at the end of the day, that’s why his “energy” seemed to be a natural fit for my “energy” (i.e. we balanced each other out energetically), and that’s why being around him was inexplicably pleasurable? I.e. he was showing me a version of myself I could be, a version of myself I wanted to be all the time. 🤔
Based on Video from “how to make decisions” https://youtu.be/DXU_7TS8Kxk and my own experiences: we all wear different personas. I had to be a varied “self” while moving between cultural and ethnical groups (3 continents). I was/am an oddball, a shy rebel, a semi social “outcast” even in my own ethnic group since young and more comfortable in the current “melting pot”, not sure if it’s due to my cptsd, limerent fantasying nature, or something else.
We all desire to be our “true self” (always evolving), relaxed, spontaneous, up or down… especially in a limerent love to be ideally accepted by LO. It’s one’s fortune to be truly with one’s fluid self when being with LO (or close friends.). It seems not to be the case with most limerents in this site.
I’m not sure if there is permanent version of oneself that one wants to and can be all the time. I have watched my own self(s) changing at hourly or daily basis — keeping journals for years primarily comprising rolling thoughts, feelings, and dreams.
I see each of us is truly unique, and once said to my ex-father-in-law: I’m in a “No Man’s Land” “Waiting for Godot” — a semi-God LO❗️ Now I know No One is coming, so I might as well just be my fluid self at any given moment while trying not to offend others in any ways. Love me or hate me is their internal business, not mine! (a semi-Stoic)
I actually went every job interview with a silent questions, “Who are you inside?” Then, I watched their face with curiosity and answered their questions with sincere smiles, as if I were going to make a friend with them (luckily I was never in a desperate position to get a job). I got all the offers except one.
“I’m not sure if there is permanent version of oneself that one wants to and can be all the time. I have watched my own self(s) changing at hourly or daily basis — keeping journals for years primarily comprising rolling thoughts, feelings, and dreams.”
@Snowphoenix.
Yes, I also suspect that maybe there is no permanent self to find and that the search is futile. However, limerence at times does feel like flicking through a lot of potential selves, and trying on an endless array of masks, on the off-chance that one of those many masks may fit.
I wonder if people attempt to create a persona to impress LO? I’m not sure if I have a personality, or whether I just invented a personality at some point, and now I’m too tired to “maintain” that personality any longer. The only identity I sort of carry with me now is “slightly older person”.
Which brings us to the topic of rebirth. If rebirth is what happens at the end of limerence, I’m a little disappointed in my reborn self. Seems like I’m not as interesting or glamorous as I thought I would be. Actually, I think I’m the same person as I was as a young child, but minus the drive/intensity/anger. I’ve accepted that childhood me, but the childhood me is incredibly boring.
So I’m the same person I always was, but the intensity is gone.
I feel limerence sort of tricks our brains into thinking: “Ooh, everything is really, really meaningful. Everywhere I look I see meaning.” Out of limerence, I think any meaning one finds in life is mostly personal and non-cosmic in nature. One enjoys other people’s company in a low-key way. I can’t believe brain chemicals can alter perceptions so much…
Yes re “Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
My issue is self-esteem around LO. I work with LO so need to interact with him most days. Even though I’ve accepted all 3 things (we wont be together etc) and have cut off all unnecessary contact and any conscious daydreaming…the lack of reciprocity and closure (we are both married so any type of discussion would be inappropriate) makes me doubt myself.profoundly and I walk around and everyone who reminds me of him (looks, personality, culture)… I feel like they are better than me. I put him on a pedestal and can’t knock him off it despite my best efforts.
Has anyone
I meant to write “has anyone else dealt with this”?
“Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
Before coming to this site, I always thought I was someone who “fell in love easily” and “had a lot of love to give”, “yet unlucky in love” etc etc. It was deeply imprinted in my self image. Only recently, have I understood that I’ve been limerent throughout most of my teenage years and adult life. Getting a perspective on those limerent feelings has helped me tremendously and I only now realise it’s more of a cry for help of my subconscious than “love”. I have been without an LO for quite a while now – a limerent in recovery if you will 😛 Sometimes I feel the glimmer, but I recognize it now and manage to avoid falling into the trap of limerence. Still, I carry it around with me all the time. It’s an endless search for meaning and fulfillment that I don’t seem to be able to create in my every day life. When I visited a variety show recently, I immediately developed fantasies of “running away with the circus”, so to speak. I dreamt of living the nomad life and travelling from place to place and be surrounded by novelty, art and excitement. Even though I shook it off a couple of days later, it was just as aching as limerence when I felt this hunger for life so intensly. So I believe I will always carry limerence in whatever form until I manage to create a life that doesn’t feel stale and confining, but I can’t seem to figure out what a fulfulled life is for me personally. I try to accept limerence as my companion who shows me when I’m unhappy or need to take better care of myself.
I’m on board (no pun intended). Thank you for your continued efforts with this site, Dr L. Excited to see where it heads.
@Sammy…I’ll bite on this one
“Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
Yes, I feel limerence is certainly a burden. Every day my routine, experiences, interactions, all have the cloud of limerence laying over top. LO is in my head at most moments. But right now, I have taken my LE from being “horrible” to just meh. Purposeful living and LC resolve has accomplished this.
I am not with LO and will more than likely never be with LO. I think it is only in the last couple months I have come to accept that truth. Accepting that truth has helped me understand that LO is a source of pain to me and not pleasure. This has given me resolve in my LC. I feel now at 18 months I am in a sort of midway point in my LE and am turning the corner into recovery. I’m saddened that LE has poisoned the ability to be friends with LO but such is the reality of limerence.
I would say my limerence can still be intense, but it does not have to be all consuming as it once was. The cloud can be there, I can accept it, but I can operate under it better and better until one day it hopefully it just dissipates away.
“Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
I’m with you here Speed. I think I’m more in frustration mode these days, but I feel like I probably do it to myself. Most days I am probably not as intense with LO anymore, but I’m also about making more personal changes that I think will help me manage my many mood swings over her.
Like yourself, I know the cloud will be there, I just want to maintain myself better under it.
I’m so sorry you’re still struggling to find a therapist, MJ. Are there any online ones you could try?
I’m really not interested in online therapy as I feel it doesn’t seem as genuine enough.
I may even just cave and give up on the idea soon because even with online presence, I feel like they would shun the topic.
I find it kind of ridiculous that it runs along the same lines as most other addictions. It’s just a person who is the addiction. Guess I am looking for a professional opinion, but all of “us” here might just be the professional opinion, you could say.
“Accepting that truth has helped me understand that LO is a source of pain to me and not pleasure. This has given me resolve in my LC. I feel now at 18 months I am in a sort of midway point in my LE and am turning the corner into recovery. I’m saddened that LE has poisoned the ability to be friends with LO but such is the reality of limerence.
I would say my limerence can still be intense, but it does not have to be all consuming as it once was. The cloud can be there, I can accept it, but I can operate under it better and better until one day it hopefully it just dissipates away.”
@Speedwagon.
Yes, I think limerence kind of nixes the possibility of a true friendship ever existing…
I think limerence shouldn’t be defined as “love” because, in my book, love is a choice and limerence isn’t a choice. I really do think all healthy relationships should be based on the concept of “choice” for both and/or all parties involved.
Limerence is hard to give up because (1) it’s all-consuming, as you say and (2) the feel-good chemicals are very addictive and addicting. I think it’s very hard to say no to that level of aliveness/rush once tasting it. Perhaps it’s better for some people never to taste it, and then there’s nothing to be nostalgic about?
I didn’t really have much to do with one of my LOs. So if a relative stranger can make one feel that level of aliveness … that’s a bit disturbing, all things considered. One is getting high off pure fantasy. In my imagination, I must have been sprinting toward an illusion. Yet my mind was convinced the endpoint was real. Really, at the finishing line, no one was waiting for me. Oof! I kind of made myself very, very upset – sick with upset, in fact – for no reason at all. 🙄😆
I feel a lot of regret. I could have been living a nice boring life for the past three decades and enjoying friendships with other people with nice boring lives. I’ve missed out on so much I feel because my brain betrayed me. 🤔
Thanks, Dr.L,
I was getting confused on who answered which post to whom and where.
What I feel would help is if I could click on a name and see all the comments of this person, because usually I only know whom I would like to reply to, not where he/she wrote…
But that would probably mean some sort of Log-in and privacy- problem, better suited to a forum?
Isn’t there still a forum somewhere?
And what are you planning? A Limerence App?;) (imagine! 5 reward points for 1 day NC and so on😂)
“What I feel would help is if I could click on a name and see all the comments of this person”
Yes, this would be nice. We could track our own evolution through an active LE to see what progress we’ve made over time.
DrL,
If I can make a suggestion, would it be possible to explain your “key word” filing system somewhere prominent?
Maybe a “Guide for New Visitors” like “Guide for Professionals.”
Knowing the appropriate place to look for/post something might help with the OT/Tangent posts.
I’m definitely one of the offenders here and I know LwL pretty well.
Not quite sure what you mean by “key words”, LE? Do you mean the post categories? My system for that is “which one does this seem to fit into best?” 🙂
What about a “community” page, with a few key bits of info on how to navigate, commenting policy, abbreviations, and link to latest coffeehouse post?
As I’m still trying to get through overwhelming amount of older posts and see occasional new comments are added to them.
I think “community” pager with “Links” to ALL latest posts in coffeehouse and in older blogs would be great.
Not sure “latest” should be 24 or 48 hours, or a week for new visitors.
DrL,
I was thinking about explaining your “file under” system somewhere. You have links at the end of every blog.
I was also thinking about some explanation about the “search the site” box on the right of each blog. For example, a search for “mbti” and you get 1 hit. Search for “attachment” and you get 12 pages. It appears based on what appears within the blog itself and doesn’t look at comments.
Also, https://livingwithlimerence.com/can-limerence-explain-twin-flames/ has a line with links
“TAGGED WITH: LOVE, NARCISSISM, ROMANCE, SPIRITUALITY, STORIES”
What’s the difference between “Filed Under” and “Tagged With?”
It’s small stuff but might make things easier for newbies. When I showed up on LwL, there was a lot less information to keep track of . Now, it could be overwhelming.
“Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
Yes and No for me. My being a limerent has given me intense joy and pleasure in the past, plus a lovely SO, so I do not consider this tendency of mine to be a burden. The only limerent burden I carry is my current fading LE, and the sadness that comes with the loss of a seemingly special connection and a wonderful dream.
“I would say my limerence can still be intense, but it does not have to be all consuming as it once was. The cloud can be there, I can accept it, but I can operate under it better and better until one day it hopefully it just dissipates away.”
Well put, exactly where I am also. It took me far longer to accept reality though.
“Yes and No for me. My being a limerent has given me intense joy and pleasure in the past, plus a lovely SO, so I do not consider this tendency of mine to be a burden. The only limerent burden I carry is my current fading LE, and the sadness that comes with the loss of a seemingly special connection and a wonderful dream.”
@Allie 1.
Ah, I’m the opposite. I think I found my limerent tendencies a burden and not an individual LE. The reason I found/find my limerent tendencies a burden is I feel it somehow separates me from the majority of other people. Limerence can be a very isolating thing that encourages even more isolation the more one clings to it. I’ve spent my whole life trapped inside my own head, it would seem, and apparently other people don’t go through life like that.
When I observe people twenty years younger than me, for example, I’m just stunned at how casually people go about flirting and romance and all that sort of thing. Nobody seems to be worried about saying the wrong thing or making a bad impression. Nobody is overanalysing things. People are just wandering around shopping centres, being themselves. Why oh why didn’t I think of that? 😆
Great observation, Sammy. If only we could be more casual about LE. Perhaps, we take the LE too seriously.
“If only we could be more casual about LE. Perhaps, we take the LE too seriously.”
@ABCD.
Yeah, true. But, as Dr. L points out, limerence is an altered state. And as Dorothy Tennov observes in her book, a precondition for limerence seems to be the desire for limerence itself.
Other posters here have talked about how they want intensity in their lives. And I think that’s what limerence is all about in a way – a desire for a relationship that’s intense. The limerent feels really intense about a person, the LO, and wants the LO to feel really intense back. The whole limerent episode is premised on the idea of being intense – ideally two people being intense about each other.
I don’t know how else to say it. The limerent craves reciprocal emotional intensity. I think the point I’m trying to make is all those young couples I see wandering around shopping centres aren’t limerent for each other. (Well, apart from the ones holding onto each other so tightly they can barely walk). They’re practising a different form of bonding I assume. But maybe I’m wrong. I dunno.
Do people take their LEs too seriously? Again, I dunno. Impossible to say for sure. I guess the only way to find out if to ask oneself: “What is my fantasy about LO and self? Would I share this fantasy with others? If the answer is no, why wouldn’t I share this fantasy with others? Is the main reason I don’t want to share my fantasy with others is because the fantasy is … plain ridiculous?”
If fantasies about LO are veering off into the ridiculous, and yet the limerent wants to argue until blue in the face about how essential these fantasies are to personal happiness, then, yes, maybe the limerent has been taking the LE a tiny bit too seriously. In other words, just how extravagant has the limerent’s storytelling gotten?
For example, I turned my LO into an ancient Greek god and then flirted with the idea of converting to some form of Paganism. I decided that there just aren’t any really hot, devastatingly charming men in the Bible, you know? I’m gonna have to change religions. Is that taking things a little too seriously? Yup, probably. 🙄😉
DrL
As I’m habitually egocentric and often in “limerence” with my own posts, reflecting on subtle changes or “growth” possibly depicted in them, or intending to refer some points in later discussions, I wonder if there is way, a click, that can lead to all my OWN old posts in sequence?
The off-topic, chitchatting nature of Coffee House is great. More than often after editing my longer ramblings elsewhere, I came back scrolling back and forth in different blogs trying to locate where I intended to post my responses.
Dr. L
I enjoy the site. It has been an immense help and blessing to me, in the face of real life Therapy that seems to be stumped over this issue.
I can’t begin to explain how good it is to know there are so many others throughout the entire globe, experiencing this, so that I know I am not alone in this insanity.
I think my only complaint with the site is its lack of organization and inability to find old posts from myself or others that I would like to follow up with. It would be nice to having an edit post feature as well, but perhaps I’m just being needy. Whatever you have planned I’m sure will be good.
You’re presence on here is always so thoughtful and concise. I know I am probably guilty of going off topic in the sections, but your current plans may help.
Looking forward to whatever changes are coming, as I am sure they will be beneficial to all.
I also wish an editing-post feature — have a “recall” click, then allows a repost.
I’m anxious about my grammar mistakes that mislead in meaning and understanding. I spot them mostly after posting.
I’m not out of the woods of limerence yet, but I accept I’ll never be with the platonic LO (although still wishing to remain a good friend LE is over).
“Does anyone else feel like limerence is this horrible burden they carry around with them everywhere they go – and this despite the fact they (a) aren’t with LO, (b) accept they’ll never be with LO, and (c) aren’t even in the more intense phases of limerence anymore?”
As soon (within a week) as I found out what limerence is all about through neuroscience lens and what is a possible psychological cause for my LEs (cptsd), I felt tremendous relief — it’s not due to my weak willpower, shortage of moral sense, or the unquenchable childhood dream to make substantial friends. I now feel much less “guilty” for the amount of sufferings caused primarily by my LE-ignorant self.
I don’t feel (may change later) I want to totally get rid of this “burden”; I wish to use its residual power to help pursue something more “positive” or purposeful — exploring unknowns, learning more social skills, and creating something meaningful in my small life.
“Is there such a thing as false guilt? And, if false guilt is a thing, where does it come from? Does it come from being parentified as a child? Does it come from not spending enough time around peers? Inadequate socialisation?”
To me, false guilt comes from parental “education” and cultural conditioning. To be docile as children, to invest time + energy and get along harmonious in all sorts of peer or social groups, etc. are advocated and pressured in most societies — we are social beings after all. If one is a natural “Lonewolf” (introverts enjoy being alone) or “compelled” to be one (in autistic spectrum case), they are thought to be an oddball, subtly ostracized by their communities.
As an immigrant and a highly sensitive limerent, I often felt doubly inadequate and courteously alienated until I finally gave up efforts to fit it and just to be an ethnic-stereotyped oddball, which actually allows me to be more spontaneous in social situations — with minimum expectations (for “right” reciprocity) and maximum curiosity.
It’s not the case “socializing” with LOs.
“I don’t feel (may change later) I want to totally get rid of this “burden”; I wish to use its residual power to help pursue something more “positive” or purposeful — exploring unknowns, learning more social skills, and creating something meaningful in my small life.”
@Snowphoenix.
Hm, yes. Can the highly-motivating force of limerence be harnessed to power other endeavours? That is an interesting question…
“To me, false guilt comes from parental “education” and cultural conditioning. To be docile as children, to invest time + energy and get along harmonious in all sorts of peer or social groups, etc. are advocated and pressured in most societies — we are social beings after all. If one is a natural “Lonewolf” (introverts enjoy being alone) or “compelled” to be one (in autistic spectrum case), they are thought to be an oddball, subtly ostracized by their communities.
As an immigrant and a highly sensitive limerent, I often felt doubly inadequate and courteously alienated until I finally gave up efforts to fit it and just to be an ethnic-stereotyped oddball, which actually allows me to be more spontaneous in social situations — with minimum expectations (for “right” reciprocity) and maximum curiosity.”
I was a very docile, compliant child. Unfortunately, despite my extremely obedient nature, I still got punished a lot! This “unjust punishment” produced a lot of unconscious anger in me – anger that the social world didn’t make sense.
In hindsight, I see that the adults who were punishing me thought I was being defiant when I wasn’t actually being defiant. Because I’m on the autism spectrum, it took me until quite late in life to master non-verbal communication skills, which comprise 97% of human communication apparently.
The fact I didn’t look teachers in the eye when they addressed me, for example, made them assume I was being intentionally disrespectful. Alternatively, the fact my face didn’t light up automatically when I saw classmates made classmates assume I didn’t like them or want to be included in games. So my whole life I’ve lived with this cognitive dissonance. Half the people who meet me insist I’m kind and well-behaved and the other half say I’m snobbish, rude, defiant, etc. So which is the real Sammy? In reality, I listened to authority figures but didn’t know I was supposed to show with my eyes/facial expressions that i was listening.
To do the right thing consistently in life, and then be accused of doing the wrong thing, is incredibly demoralising. I think that’s why some autistic people suffer from burnout. Also, a spirit of rebellion might set in. Some teenagers in this situation might reason: “Well, I’ve already done the time, might as well do the crime. If people keep punishing me for doing good, why shouldn’t I do bad?”
Now I’ve not that psychologically invested in doing the right thing. I realise if I just smile and make eye contact, I can manipulate just about anybody into believing I’m awesome. (Isn’t it horrible how the human social world actually works? Popularity is more about correct body language than genuine morals). 🙄
“It’s not the case “socializing” with LOs.”
I probably became besotted with my LOs because they were somewhat nice to me/talked to me despite the fact I wasn’t giving off the correct body language signals. I don’t know if there was something wrong with my LOs to make them happy to hang out with a “loser”. But social inclusion is social inclusion, and beggars can’t be choosers. It’s easy to see how often-excluded young people can fall into bad company if said bad company is perceived as less rejecting and more welcoming than good company. What a terribly sad world we live in! 🤔
I hear you, Sammy. I was so desperate to be accepted at school that I let my friends bully me and make me miserable. I was in constant conflict with my need to follow rules and not get into trouble, versus their rule-breaking and pressure on me to do the same. It was never anything bad but it was so stressful for me.
“I was so desperate to be accepted at school that I let my friends bully me and make me miserable. I was in constant conflict with my need to follow rules and not get into trouble, versus their rule-breaking and pressure on me to do the same. It was never anything bad but it was so stressful for me.”
@C for cat.
Yes, it can be very hard for neurodivergent people, or people with very strong introvert leanings, to navigate the everyday social world at times…
Probably up until grade ten, I was fine just being a studious bookworm type with one or two close friends. It didn’t matter that my peers considered me a “square”. (In Australia, in the late 90s, a “square” was someone considered tediously conventional, the total opposite of cool and exciting).
Then, toward the end of grade ten, something in me shifted. I wanted to be a part of and even to conquer the social world I had been neglecting for so long. I developed the strangest interest in … other people! I don’t know if my interest in the social world coincided with the emergence of vague sexual/romantic feelings. Perhaps my brain decided unconsciously that I’d never secure a mate until I made an effort to be less shy/awkward/self-contained.
Unfortunately, the people I liked romantically weren’t really available. I probably should have known they were unsuitable/unavailable. But I turned off the logical part of my brain and just chased after feelings of euphoria. I allowed myself only to be guided by emotion, and I neglected my schoolwork.
The teachers who gave me a hard time for being autistic were mostly supposedly enlightened primary school teachers, believe it or not. But by grade ten, maybe the cumulative effect of being misunderstood for years caught up with me, and I felt frustrated. I was a really good kid, a stickler for rules, etc, etc. But I never got to be a prefect because I didn’t have the social skills.
I wasn’t really bullied that much in school, because I usually didn’t react to bullying. So most bullies found me too boring to pick on. Bullies lost interest in me pretty quickly. However, I also had trouble joining large groups of all-male friends. I was reluctant to go swimming or to participate in team sports. I was timid.
If neurotypicals sometimes make the mistake of expecting everyone in the world to be neurotypical, as an autistic person, I made the reverse mistake of expecting everyone in the world to be autistic! 😆
I’ve kind of got my bearings in the social world now. But limerence didn’t help with the process. Or maybe limerence DID help with the process? Maybe limerence was my way of working through a lifetime worth of misunderstandings about other humans? And, of course, many of these misunderstandings cut both ways. I.e. I misunderstand neurotypicals and neurotypicals misunderstand me.
The best advice I can give another neurodivergent person regarding “fitting in” is don’t assume that other people (i.e. neurotypical peers and/or authority figures) are automatically hostile or malicious. Do not allow yourself to become bitter when you are misunderstood. Embrace the power of forgiveness – forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others. Do not keep records of wrongs in your heart.
Most human beings are really, really lovely and mean well. Yes, adolescent males DO go through a stage where they’re a bit disgusting and frighteningly loud and boisterous. But most grow out of that once they get girlfriends/wives.
Adolescent females, on the other hand, can go through a stage where they organise friendship groups around real and/or perceived social status. It can be distressing if you’re the kind of girl who doesn’t have the right kind of social capital. But (I hope) females too grow out of this cliquey behaviour once they become mothers.
@Cfc, @Sammy
Your passages make me very sad here….
I’ve worked with high functioning kids in Autistic Spectrum at school, and it’s the SADDEST thing to watch in the whole world — their shyness, eagerness to observe others’ play, readiness to “give their life” for others’ friendly attention, and despair in their eyes with tear streaming down: “Why am I always nice to them, but they all refuse me in their games?”
Five years after the divorce, my exSD told me he has a self-diagnosed Asperger; if I knew beforehand, I would not walk away. He’s married again (w/ a woman from my ethnic group) with two kids and a partnership in a big law firm.
Sammy: your analysis of your school experiences are very accurate — both sides misunderstand each other, but AS kids got teased, isolated, or emotionally/mentally “punished”. The world is INDEED unfair to them.
I heard a story about a female (w/ Asperger) college student who consciously learned all possible social cues and body languages (infinite out there) and went all sorts of parties to practice. No one ever suspected she could have AS ! (she might have written a book about her experiences). The movie “Adam” (2009) tells such another story.
Children and adults in Autistic Spectrum are NOT losers. They’re so kind hearted and brilliant in their unique ways.
C for cat,
That’s what’s called peer pressure in schools. If you don’t mingle with rules breakers you’re considered a nerd. Thanks God I didn’t have to deal with peer pressure at any stage in my life.
How are you doing these days? 💪🏽
“Children and adults in Autistic Spectrum are NOT losers. They’re so kind hearted and brilliant in their unique ways.”
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you so much for your kind words. 🙂
Yes, of course, people on the spectrum aren’t losers. Unfortunately, however, when a young person doesn’t instinctively understand and give expected body language, they are sometimes branded as “losers” by insecure peers who don’t really understand the lack of reaction (or why a conspicuously wrong reaction was given).
Females on the spectrum are apparently better at “masking” autistic traits than males on the spectrum. This has upsides and downsides. On the upside, girls might fit in better. On the downside, girls might be less likely to get diagnosed and received professional support.
Since learning body language, my relationships with other males have improved greatly. For example, when someone tells a joke, they often signal with their eyes that they’re telling a joke. This might be hard for an autistic person to pick up on, even if they understand intellectually a joke is being told, and the punchline.
I think, as an autistic person, for the longest time, I couldn’t understand why neurotypicals spend so much time standing around and doing nothing, even when they’re … cough, cough … at work. Now I realise that bonding is a really important part of work. Body language is how humans give emotional context/nuance to speech. It’s been a steep learning curve for me, but I’m getting there… 😉
I can’t tell you how many neurotypical women over the years have thought I was flirting with them when all I was doing was staring at them blankly after they said something I didn’t quite grasp!! 🙄
@Snowphoenix.
The other interesting thing about being on the spectrum, at least for me, is pride.
What I mean by this is that some people on the spectrum don’t want to admit they’re on the spectrum, because they think autism implies there’s something wrong with them. In other words, some autistic people don’t want to ask for help when they need it – the feeling of shame that bubbles up within is too great. Alternatively, some parents of kids on the spectrum don’t even want to consider the possibility that their kids are different or have special needs. These parents also have some kind of shame response regarding help.
I think it’s wonderful how schools today seem to be a lot more supportive of children on the spectrum, and their parents too. In my family of origin, I think parent and child alike suffered in silence, overwhelmed by utterly inappropriate feelings of shame. It’s only now that I’m 40 I realise I don’t need to drown in shame all the time. I don’t need to feel bad constantly about being different. 😉
I think I’ve had two bona fide LOs in my life, and the appeal of both these young men was that they treated me as if I was normal. Could the explanation for my limerence in both cases really be that heartbreakingly simple? 😲
@sammy
I just want to say an absolutely truth that from pieces of your passages here (also scanned bits here and there in older rooms of LwL), I could never tell you are in autistic spectrum! At one point, I was thinking that this person (thought you were a female when I first come at the end of July) could articulate so well, in a very organized way, about so many aspects of life….
I’m also fascinated by and your writing style and sophisticated English words and phrases (looked up them a lot) , as I’m still learning English and somewhat “obsessed” with how to express well in writing.
Sammy, “It didn’t matter that my peers considered me a “square”. (In Australia, in the late 90s, a “square” was someone considered tediously conventional, the total opposite of cool and exciting).” Try having a name that rhymes with ‘square’… great fun.
Nisor, thanks for thinking of me. I’m still on NC; it’s been a month now. Feels like much longer and I’m still in a depressive phase. Have my days when it’s a bit better but at the moment feel very sad. Rehearsals are starting next week for the play and it’s playing (haha) on my mind a lot. My SO will be going but I won’t be. Just found out the play after that only has one woman and she’s in her 30s so I’m too old for that too. And I’ve heard absolutely nothing from LO. Which is good I suppose but also hurtful. He’s not on social media much which is probably also good.
I’m still procrastinating starting therapy; which is frustrating. I know I need to and it will help (I hope) but I’m scared.
“I just want to say an absolutely truth that from pieces of your passages here (also scanned bits here and there in older rooms of LwL), I could never tell you are in autistic spectrum! At one point, I was thinking that this person (thought you were a female when I first come at the end of July) could articulate so well, in a very organized way, about so many aspects of life….
I’m also fascinated by and your writing style and sophisticated English words and phrases (looked up them a lot) , as I’m still learning English and somewhat “obsessed” with how to express well in writing.”
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for your very kind words, and for thinking that I express myself well!!
I think you show some talent for written expression also. And practice can only improve performance! 😉
To be honest, it’s embarrassing that you thought I was/am female, but it’s not the first time it’s happened to me in life, so I won’t hold it against you. I grew up with a very talkative mother and lively two sisters, so most of my childhood conversational partners were female. I think some female “conversational patterns” have rubbed off on me. I don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. 😆
I’m gay. Or, at least, other people have decided for me I’m gay, and there seems to be a ring of truth to it. I have always found other males “cute” and been fascinated by masculine confidence/energy. Something about the way the male body moves through time and space draws my eye. I like the natural athleticism of male bodies.
I’m not really sure how my sexuality developed in the direction it did. But I think the organisation of my brain may have played a role.
Basically, I don’t seem to have a “male brain” or a “female brain”. I seem to have been born with an “intermediate brain” i.e. a brain that’s stuck somewhere between a male brain and a female brain, and may combine the best (or worst) traits of both brain types. 😉
The upside of a having an intermediate brain is that I can hopefully empathise with both male/masculine concerns and female/feminine concerns and sometimes broker peace between the sexes. The downside of having an intermediate brain is incredible feelings of alienation from both sexes and the most horrifying/embarrassing sexual confusion that never seems to end…
I can “tap into” my male brain for insights and I can “tap into” my female brain for insights. But I can’t stay “tapped into” either brain, and therefore my status as a gendered entity is constantly on the verge of collapse. I want to be a garden-variety male. But I can’t maintain a stable sense of self, despite having a male body and a Y chromosome, as my brain is too muddled in terms of gender.
Regarding neurodiversity, I would say I have high-functioning Asperger’s Syndrome, which is no longer officially recognised as a diagnosis.
I have always suspected there was something different or “wrong” about me, compared to other people, because my whole life I have suffered from the most terrible anxiety. This anxiety gets so bad at times I want to die. This anxiety gets so bad that I no longer want to interact with people. Maybe this anxiety, and not limerence per se, is the “burden” I carry around with me everywhere I go?
I believe my lifelong anxiety stems from being an autistic person obliged to live in a neurotypical world. I thought that if I learnt enough about the world and about other people, then eventually some day maybe I could fit in? My anxiety has thankfully lessened as I’ve hit middle age. I realise that nobody has an easy life, or feels comfortable all the time in own skin. Too much self-pity is misplaced. But as I age, I also realise that I am different and different doesn’t mean “special” or “unique” or “brilliant” or “genius”. Different can often mean “extra stress” and that’s about it.
My whole life I’ve also struggled to connect with people, despite the fact I really, really like other people – especially males – and enjoy their company. My difficulties connecting with people, despite great efforts to connect with people, I think is another sign of autism.
A strange thing about me is that despite my autism and my sexual confusion, heterosexual women seem to be incredibly comfortable in my presence. I can offer straight women something that straight men can’t, but I have no idea what that something is. I think I can talk to a straight woman in the way a straight woman can talk to another straight women. (Maybe this is why you assumed me to be female when you read my writing?) In other words, I can engage women conversationally in the way women like to be engaged.
I think straight women often want to have deep conversations with husbands/boyfriends, and find that husbands/boyfriends can’t have these conversations, despite great affection for the woman in question. Husbands/boyfriends are baffled by “female conversational patterns”. Men like to talk about facts. Women want to talk about more than facts. Men are reluctant to talk about more than facts in case they (men) accidentally say something wrong.
I think heterosexuality is in crisis in the modern West. The reason heterosexuality is in crisis is not because men are unhappy with women. Most men are very happy with women. The reason heterosexuality is in crisis is because women (and by “women” I mean wives/ girlfriends) are unhappy with their male partners, or the quality of their relationships with said male partners.
In my opinion, if we want to “save marriage” or “preserve social monogamy as an ideal for future generations”, we need to understand better the causes of female unhappiness in relationships with men. We need to understand why straight women are unhappy being married to straight men. I’m not implying men have done anything wrong – not at all. I’m saying there’s some disconnect going on between the sexes that needs to be addressed. 😉
@Sammy
I’m still not good with Western names. Any time I see a name ending with “-y”, it sounded like a women’s name to me, although objectively boy’s and man’s nickname could end with ‘—y”.
“Basically, I don’t seem to have a “male brain” or a “female brain”. I seem to have been born with an “intermediate brain” i.e. a brain that’s stuck somewhere between a male brain and a female brain, and may combine the best (or worst) traits of both brain types. “
Here I want to ask: what are “male brain” and “female brain” traits? Are they neurochemical defined, or culturally based? I also ponder over definitions of “masculinity” and “femininity”. I told LO #5 that I am drawn to femininity in men, but can’t pin point what “femininity” in men and in women mean, same or slight different? I also think they are conceptualized differently in different cultures — a macho one or not. They also evolve in time. What is considered as “Tomboy” in my COO could be gender-neutral here.
“I believe my lifelong anxiety stems from being an autistic person obliged to live in a neurotypical world.” …. “My difficulties connecting with people, despite great efforts to connect with people, I think is another sign of autism.”
The major feature of Asperger (used to be different from extreme Autism) is that the former desperately wants to make friends and “fit in a neurotypical world” while the latter does not really care and enjoys their own company. I agree that your anxiety and sense of burden “stems from being an autistic person”; limerence is just its byproduct. Just like mine, cptsd is the main broader issue, limerence secondary. Words “unique”, “brilliant” or “genius” are often used to describe people’s talents, specific skills, or thinking patterns, our emotions are seldom taken into considerations or just ignored.
Always feeling misfit and socially anxious, I thought I had Asperger. So I went to a psychoanalysis for an evaluation; she told me I had acute cptsd, almost opposite of Asperger — highly sensitive to noise, crowds, loud music, and overly reactive to others facial expressions or body languages. I think cptsd and Asperger share a lot of common features in socialization, except that cptsd is related to a lot of traumas and abuses in one’s childhood.
“(Maybe this is why you assumed me to be female when you read my writing?) In other words, I can engage women conversationally in the way women like to be engaged.”
A lot of writing seems to be straightforward, concise, and dry with facts, statements, and common vocabularies. Your writing has a rhthem, like listening to a stream flowing — a stream of thoughts, emotions, and consciousness, shiny with rich, sophisticated words and phrases bubbling down. You use repetitions to emphasize your points, smooth connections between sentences, and freely associate with other concepts. I don’t see this style often either in male or female writing. It’s your unique one.
With some working experience and friendship with gay men, I can only say that it is easier to engage and stay in conversation with them. They seem to be more toned to or in harmony with female’s flows of expressions. With straight male, I always feel either tension, uneasiness, or awkwardness no matter how nice and seemingly easygoing they are. I can’t pin point such “discomfort”, but can sense it almost all the time; with gay men, not all.
That’s probably another reason I seek femininity in men; talking with them have more fluidity and being with them feels comfortable at ease.
“I think straight women often want to have deep conversations with husbands/boyfriends, and find that husbands/boyfriends can’t have these conversations, despite great affection for the woman in question. Husbands/boyfriends are baffled by “female conversational patterns”. Men like to talk about facts. Women want to talk about more than facts. Men are reluctant to talk about more than facts in case they (men) accidentally say something wrong.”
Very keen observation! The ego is often subconsciously involved in males’ talks, even with their wives and girlfriends; it’s a habit. Stimulating, challenging yet enjoyable conversation is an art, not a winning and losing game.
@Snowphoenix.
“Here I want to ask: what are “male brain” and “female brain” traits? Are they neurochemical defined, or culturally based? I also ponder over definitions of “masculinity” and “femininity”. I told LO #5 that I am drawn to femininity in men, but can’t pin point what “femininity” in men and in women mean, same or slight different? I also think they are conceptualized differently in different cultures — a macho one or not. They also evolve in time. What is considered as “Tomboy” in my COO could be gender-neutral here.”
Well, if we’re going to discuss gender, I’d like to preface my remarks by saying how nice it is to be talking to a female who admits to possessing a strong animus, a highly-developed masculine side, and who also loves men into the bargain! It’s interesting that you’re attracted to males with “feminine energy”. Males with artistic gifts supposedly possess a strong anima, a highly-developed feminine side, regardless of sexual orientation, and society apparently celebrates the femininity of artistically-inclined men. (Think poets such as Alfred, Lord Tennyson, for example).
Most of my ideas on sex/gender/sexuality come from Camille Paglia. I think she is right in many of the things she says. She seems to hold very traditional ideas about the differences between men and women, however, and argues these differences are rooted primarily in biology and not culture. Paglia’s highly conservative ideas about sex and gender, etc, make her unpopular with modern theorists, who are more inclined to argue that everything gender-related is socially constructed and there are no real differences between the sexes.
Paglia seems to believe that there is a male brain, which sexually mature adult men possess, and this brain is a product of biology. Paglia seems to believe there is a female brain, which sexually mature adult women possess, and this brain too is the product of thousands of years of evolution. It’s not a cultural by-product, in other words, or some grand conspiracy to keep women oppressed. (Not that women aren’t oppressed in many parts of the world).
Paglia believes that the existence of gay males can be explained by the concept of an intermediate brain, coupled with early childhood experiences. In other words, unorthodox sexuality of an exclusive kind in men is a product of BOTH nature and nurture. The exact balance of nature and nurture is not known.
Essentially, something a bit unusual has happened in the life of the male who studiously avoids female romantic company his entire life. Most adult men seek out female company to satisfy some deep primal urge within. Paglia also takes pains to stress how exceptionally RARE exclusive same-sex desire in adult men is. Women are, and will always be, the main focus of men’s Eros.
Paglia observes that gay men are more likely than straight men to be born with an artistic gene/rich emotional sensitivity. But straight men can be born with these highly-desirable traits too, so the women of planet earth don’t need to give up hope if they want to snag an arty man for themselves!
Gay men in groups of gay men tends to be very playful. There’s a lot of witty conversation happening, etc. Gay men, like artists and people on the autistic spectrum, show evidence of neoteny – the retention of childlike traits well into adult years. Gay men are lively company and very endearing. However, it is a very grave error for society, or for women, to pit gay men and straight men against each other. As wonderful as gay men are, the noble character and hard work and achievements of straight men must never be minimised.
Straight men are the ones who keep civilisation in smooth, running order – mostly by virtue of the very difficult jobs they perform under dangerous conditions and on an almost daily basis. Most of the privileges that modern women and children enjoy are enjoyed because of the current and historical sacrifices of straight men.
I think the innate difference between the sexes really become noticeable when people are over 40. Women are more sentimental than men, more nurturing toward the young, more in tune with emotions, more in touch with nature, tend to talk more and talk more about relationships, are less interested in sex without commitment. Women are less likely to break the law than men, but women are also less likely to achieve the heights of greatness.
Men, on the other hand, are more obsessive than women, more aggressive, more mechanically-minded, better at navigating time and space, need women to help them with emotions, rely on women for domestic services, have more competitive and “jokey” relationships with the same sex. Men are more likely to break the law than women. Men are more likely to achieve cultural greatness.
Paglia thinks that since women bring forth life, women often aren’t that ambitious as a sex. The inability of men to bring forth life may spurn male ambition in other areas where sustained effort can yield spectacular results. Women are slow-moving and sultry. Men are impulsive, fiery, uncertain of themselves, combative, restless. A man who has long hair is indicating he has a feminine streak.
One of my favourite writers is D. H. Lawrence. Lawrence had a wife named Frieda. Lawrence’s intellectual friends didn’t like Frieda. They thought Frieda was dull, and held her husband back. But Lawrence actually needed Frieda to be the man he was and the writer he was.
Lawrence, like all great artists, was a little bit unhinged, you see. He was a little bit mad. He was grandiose at times. Frieda was the person who laughed at Lawrence when Lawrence was going off-track. In essence, Frieda, a woman, helped to ground Lawrence in reality, even though Lawrence remained narcissistic to the end. (All great artists are narcissistic). Frieda was good for Lawrence, in other words. She wasn’t “dull”; she was the “yin” to Lawrence’s “yang”.
“A lot of writing seems to be straightforward, concise, and dry with facts, statements, and common vocabularies. Your writing has a rhthem, like listening to a stream flowing — a stream of thoughts, emotions, and consciousness, shiny with rich, sophisticated words and phrases bubbling down. You use repetitions to emphasize your points, smooth connections between sentences, and freely associate with other concepts. I don’t see this style often either in male or female writing. It’s your unique one.”
Thank you for the compliment. I think my writing style can be explained by my unusual brain. Basically, the pedantry and intellectual showing-off is the male side of my brain coming to the fore and the rhythmic movement of words and emotional flourishes are the female side. Ideally, the male side of my brain and the female side of my brain work in concert to create something beautiful. Ideally, the male side of my brain and the female side of my brain are always in constant conversation with one another. I try to let neither side of my brain “win the debate” too often. 😉
Sammy,
“What a terrible sad world we live in!”
Happiness in life is not a solid straight line. Happiness is just beautiful moments that occur in peaks in that solid straight line. Some have more peaks of happiness than others. Seems unfair… maybe because of the choices we make, the environment we live in is not helpful, our appearance, health, it could be many things beyond our control. But there must be an equilibrium to all these.
Happiness is described as a long term sense of contentedness with life, that you’re at peace in the world, pleased with your choices and the way life is playing out…and harmony, but how does one accomplish that? Again, for some this is handed to them in a silver platter, for others it is not so.
We have to find the purpose of life, Bertrand Russell, an atheist, said:
“Unless you assume a God, the question of life purpose is meaningless.”
In the epistle to the Colossians, apostle Paul says:
“For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible…everything started in Him. (God)
Mainly, we look inside ourselves for answers, but shouldn’t we also look outside ourselves? To God, and the equilibrium of the supernatural where our spirit resides , that part of us that looks for the divine? For we are body, soul and spiritual beings. The body being the flesh and bones, the soul, the seat of our emotions, the spirit, that which transcends to the supernatural, the part of us that searches the infinite/God.
I came across a book named: “ The purpose driven life” by Rick Warren, (what on earth am I here for?). I just started reading it and find it eye opening, after reading so much philosophy all my life, I think I can go to the source of life, perhaps I find the answers to many of my questions???
Also, in the internet there’s this writer/poet named John Donahue who wrote this exquisite, beautiful essay on beauty and Eros.
“John Donahue- on Beauty-why we fall in love, and how the life force of desire vitalizes us.?”
Have a nice week.
@Nisor.
Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. Appreciated. 😛
Sammy,
In your post of august 31, you stated that you ‘can offer straight women something that straight men can’t, but you have no idea what that something is.’
Your assumptions there are right. You lend ‘an ear ‘. Most straight men have no patience listening to women talk. Only listen if the women want something fixed or some intimacy…
Women want to be listened to with all their attention, not just in a hurry, for men always seem to be in a hurry to do something else.
And sometimes they fake they’re listening, when you ask them if they understood what you said, they say, can you repeat what you said? It’s frustrating. Me as a straight female, have to “force” my SO to listen to me or else everything goes wrong, from shopping to planning a vacation, etc. And he’s an excellent SO, otherwise. I consider I have plenty of experience with straight men since small. I grew up among two brothers! I preferred following them and playing their games. They were more interesting to me than my sisters. They always treated me nice and when I could not keep up with them, for they were stronger and riskier, they had the patience to help me along, like when climbing trees or jumping in the rivers, etc. ( we grew up in a six acres of land, plenty to do and discover in nature). We never had arguments but also didn’t engage in many deep conversations. After finished with outside adventures, they’ll go and play with their trucks and fake guns and I’ll play with my dolls. What I mean to say is, it is easier for me to relate to men than girls. I find most straight women boring, I’m not interested in cooking subjects or knitting, baking cookies, gossip, etc. that’s what most of them talk about. It’s boring to me. (If I find interesting straight women I keep a close friendship with them. )Instead, if I was interested in a straight man I wanted to know his hobbies. If he liked soccer I didn’t mind going with them to a match and enjoying it myself, or horse track racing and betting, mountain climbing , a chess game, etc. I love risky men, even though I’m not a risky woman. I let SO have his time alone with other male friends.I like my “alone time”, away from my SO. And he gets his. They don’t like clingy or needy spouses . Most straight men ( that I know) like talking about business, football and other sports, cars, guns,
History, electronic gadgets , politics , traveling, etc. if a straight woman doesn’t know about these subjects she cannot relate, I believe. That’s why us, most women, I think ,
have other women friends to share feelings and to get away from their husbands kind of talk that most straight women don’t find interesting.
Ah , yes, straight men are very interesting creatures! Like you, I like the ‘natural athleticism of male bodies.’ They may behave like savages sometimes, but they become docile when they surrender while laying in a woman’s bust. Can’t blame them, they have too much energy!
You opened a can of 🪱 worms here…
@Nisor.
“You opened a can of 🪱 worms here…”
I apologise if I opened a can of worms… Not my intention at all. (Or was it?) 😆
“What I mean to say is, it is easier for me to relate to men than girls.”
Funny story. I haven’t read many of your posts. But from the ones I read I assumed you were … a man! And probably some staid clergyman at that! 😜 That’s purely because you seem to take a more cerebral approach to discussing limerence, and show an interest in the intellectual ins and outs. (I guess my own gender biases are showing!) 😲
“I consider I have plenty of experience with straight men since small. I grew up among two brothers!”
The dissident feminist scholar Camille Paglia says that straight women who grow up with brothers are often the best at relating to straight men because they know from firsthand experience what men are like and they know not to take men too seriously!! 😉
Some women grow up in very sheltered environments and they entertain this lifelong fear of men that they never overcome. They don’t understand, like their more resilient sisters, that men are sort of big clowns at the end of the day. I don’t mean any disrespect to men when I say that. I like pretty much everything about the male of the species. I’m a huge fan of men. But the truth is: men are nothing without women. Most men do need a good woman in their lives.
Basically, in successful heterosexuality, the woman has the upper hand in the relationship and that’s a good thing for both sexes. The man accepts the woman has the upper hand. (Clever women pretend that the man is in charge of things, when really she’s helping him make all the right moves on the chessboard of life).
I think there’s a bit of good-natured deception going on in all happy marriages. Straight women have to “trick” husbands into believing the latter are superior, but happily-married men and women both secretly know who’s top banana. (It’s the woman, thank God!) 😆
A happily married man once told me that the correct response to all his wife’s complaints was: “I’m so sorry, honey. I’m just so sorry.” This response calmed his wife down, because she felt her spouse heard her feelings. Less enlightened men (like my father, unfortunately) might try to argue with the woman over the logic over the situation. Not a good relational move – not even if the man is objectively right about whatever the couple is arguing about. 🙂
Men are beautiful, beautiful creatures. I adore the physicality of men. Men are special. Men are splendid. But happy, healthy, well-adjusted adult men need to be “managed” by some level-headed woman up to the task. If a man is married to a good woman, he has nothing to fear from the fair sex. But the man should recognise his wife’s superior judgement in many matters. Oh, who I kidding? The man should recognise his wife’s superior judgement in … all matters.
🤣
Marriage is a game at the end of the day. Woman, by default, is the winner of that game. (Biology has given Woman many social and emotional gifts the average male lacks). Men must not be sore losers in love. When a man lets a woman “win the game of marriage”, he also wins – not just at mating, but at life itself. In other words, the happiest and most fulfilled straight men alive are graceful, gracious “losers” in the power struggle between the sexes. 😉
A man secure in his masculinity knows that his wife is top banana, and he doesn’t really have a problem with that… 😉
“Can the highly-motivating force of limerence be harnessed to power other endeavours? That is an interesting question…”
Yes, one can — Dr L read Parcel Proust and got a PhD to impress his LOs, respectively…
Without letting the limerence energy die out, I’ll try to channel it into more purposeful goals, besides expressing, analyzing my past LEs and understanding myself better, which is a self-discovering journey itself.
Marcel Proust… oh, those typos! 🫣
Sammy,
You’re correct again. I’m loving you so much!!!
Didn’t have a reply button in your text. So
Im posting here.
“I’m so sorry, honey, I’m just so sorry.”
If only men had the understanding of what a weight those words carry there would be no divorces. eh. This kind of response (at least for me) would definitely calm me down. But some men , like my SO, are pigheaded and want to win the argument no matter how illogical they sound. In the long run, they do as the wife said but won’t admit it. ha, we know, but keep quiet and smile inside.
What do I want in a man ( and most women I suppose), mostly, protection and security, provision, intimacy, commitment, understanding,
love and great sex.
It’s a whole package. I could provide for myself, as I did while single, I had a great job I loved, but I’m a passionate woman , which means if I work I’m all in! No time for housewife duty or children care. It’s either one or the other, not both. I’d mess up one or the other.
I decided to stay home and be all in with housewife duty and mom duties.(and social life of course, and we had the economic resources to do it.) I did a good job, so my SO tells me , family and friends. Not regretting it. (46 years of marriage and going !)
What can I do, I’m a passionate woman!
Don’t know if the younger generation would like to stay home and bring up children and play housewife . I don’t even know if I myself would like to do it again, if I were given another chance at life…
Have a marvelous and fruitful week.
I’m so glad you’ve done this, Dr L – it’s so difficult when you’ve commented on a post and then the next day it’s completely disappeared because everyone in a different time zone has commented on other posts and you can’t remember which one the one you commented on was. For a while I kept a list but it got too long.
I really like the idea of keeping comments on topic and then using the coffeehouse for general discussion.
And I’d like to add my thanks – if it hadn’t been for this blog and your book I wouldn’t be where I am now – working with my SO to help me move forward and avoid painful and destructive LEs in future. And be able to see my most recent LO again, as I have to, without falling apart!
@Sammy.
Yes, absolutely. I agree there is a lot of intensity in LE. I guess what I was trying to say was that in order to get over LE, if one could work towards tuning down the intensity switch, that may help?
“I guess what I was trying to say was that in order to get over LE, if one could work towards tuning down the intensity switch, that may help?”
@ABCD.
Ah yes. I understand what you mean. I guess the first step is to admit (to oneself) maybe that one is being really, really intense over someone, if one hasn’t already done that? 😜
@ABCD @ Sammy
It was really this helpless intensity bothered me most, because it’s mind boggling that my normally logical mind just could not fend off those utterly useless rumination over an unavailable person, who unknowingly (or manipulatively) intermittently made me either idiotically giddy or triggered that devilish abandonment melange.
As time passes, the intensity does wane but could be strengthened again if LO is physically within (long or short) sight. I agree with Sammy that clear awareness and acceptance of the undeniable affects of limerence, could enable us to tune down the volume with “ease” — not smash the knob!
I’m still using meditation daily as a tool to reduce rumination (not sweet nostalgia); I believe, it would never completely disappear but could be tuned down.
There IS still a forum, it’s not connected to this site any more, but it’s compatible with the LWL approach and run very much like the old forum here was. Many of us old forum regulars hang out there.
http://limerenceforums.com
I knew it!! And I even found that I signed up some time 🤦🏻♀️which I completely forgot about.
I still doubt that it’s good for me to spend so much time on these sites at the moment, it fuels my ruminations too much.
But thank you very much for the hint!
Thanks, Anon. Yes, it was only the LwL-hosted forum that shut down.
[N.B. I’ve blanked the duplicate posts, as if I delete them we lose Mila’s comment too]
Well, my comment is not that memorable😅feel free to delete it!
Every comment counts! 🙂
@Dr L, as considerate as ever:)
LOL, thanks, Dr L.
“What is my fantasy about LO and self?”
Sammy,
I don’t know what I wanted from her. I had fantasies all over the place from running away with her abroad to her and her gentleman friend being family friends. I just wanted her present. I wanted to know she would be there each day and I could feel the relief that I wasn’t alone in life. And I’ve told my wife about these fantasies when she asks. The limerence was like having intense Eros love for a dear friend and the shame of it.
“To me, false guilt comes from parental “education” and cultural conditioning.”
Snowphoenix
Yes, I agree. I gave myself a ton of shame and grief if my thoughts of LO were of her as a woman. And most of that comes from my religious upbringing. That even thoughts of that kind are a sin.
One hit me so bad as she was about to say something to me, that I had to leave the room. I saw her a bit later when it had passed and she asked me if everything was alright. I told her I had just forgot something and wanted to do it before I forgot again.
But for the most part those kind of thoughts were rare, but always intrusive.
@Adam,
Coming from the “similar cultural” background somewhat like yours, I totally understand your inner thoughts. We women used to be taught to feel shameful or dirty or even slutty if we unknowingly arose carvel wandering in men.
Then I learned in France, women feel offended if men don’t graciously/respectfully complement and flirt (NOT glimmer at) with them in social settings, because it hints they are not attractive enough, their womanhood is thus indirectly insulted. I think it’s really cool psychology😀 The same goes with men and manhood, just look at those “peacock showoff” when men are around women, what for? They love to get admiration look showered on them.
It’s the nature of human and other sentient beings, which if we resist, would bring ourselves unnecessary shame, guilt and other idiotic sufferings.
I guess it was a bit of my upbringing and a bit of my limerence. I saw her through a “pure” lens. A woman of upstanding morals. One of God’s children. And I even defended her purity against any suggesting she was anything less. So having those occasional intrusive thoughts of her in a not pure way gave me much shame.
Lol I remember a conversation with my co-workers where someone said something about LO’s possible love life, sometime after she started seeing someone. And I made the comment to them when it was suggested that they uh, you know … I said ‘no they haven’t.’ ‘Why do you know that for sure.’ I said ‘Because the last time angels and humans fraternized together we got a global apocalypse. That hasn’t happened yet.’ Lol I don’t think most of them got what I was saying.
@Adam
😀 Forgive me to be frank, I think for your own benefits, some kind of reprogramming should be in line….
My COO (culture of origins) made me suffer all my life until I stumbled into LwL…. If naively becoming a center of a heart-wrenching tragedy or shameful gossip, I wanted to know WHY? As soon as I was able to rationalize WHY and HOW, I could put myself in distance, and more “objectively” watch the show, or even romanticize ME in it, eg envision myself as Quasimodo for Esmeralda. Then, I could feel noble or immortalized…
@Adam
I’m new and have been lurking around here for a bit. I haven’t decided yet if I have the courage to post about my current LE, though it’s good to see people here don’t seem to judge each other for their extramarital attractions. (So many forums want to give you a scarlet letter!) In the meantime, it helps just to read other people’s experiences.
But I wanted to let you know that I got the angel/human joke and it made me chuckle. I’ve actually read the Book of Enoch, and the band Ascension of the Watchers did a whole album based on it. 🙂
Snowphoenix
I had the fictional scenarios of being the hero. They may not have been associated with other fictional works, but it was a great distraction for me so I did fixate on her as a woman. If I was the friendly platonic hero that saved her in various situations it would keep my mind from wandering to the depths of carnal things.
I don’t pretend to think I am perfect and will never find women other that my wife attractive. I am not naive to think that my wife hasn’t ever seen another man as sexy or attractive. As you said before it’s a part of human nature. But the intensity of limerence made it seem so much more shameful.
Serial Limerent
A lot of people here in this community have told me, I am my own worst critic. I judge myself harsher than anyone here. So I can understand your apprehension to share. I can tell you that the people of this community have helped me come a long way since I found this place back in January. No one has ever judged me. They have helped me come a long way to getting over the shame and guilt I still somewhat carry for this limerence. But you should also feel comfortable before you post anything. And no one will pressure you into that.
I am glad you got it. I got raised a Christian and my folks were very adamant (when I reached the age it was feasible) that I read the Bible for a least 30 minutes a day. As a young boy the Flood was one of my favorite accounts to read. As an older teen it was Song of Solomon 🙂
@serial limerent
Welcome !
You picked the right person to correspond with on your first post. Adam is very compassionate, generous and indeed maybe ‘too’ self-deprecating. I also feel tentative on sharing too much of my own LE. It has helped me though figure stuff out. For me it’s been a full-on bolt out of the blue undermining my ‘true self’. It takes time to read, learn and come up with a plan. ‘Summer’ helped me a lot and I miss her here. I re-read blogs and posts of great intelligent advice from LwL community to keep me heading in the right direction.
Very best wishes
IMHO
Thank you for your kind words. I’ve had so many people respond to me initially when I first posted here that I try to do the same. Miss Lovisa was the first person to respond. I miss her. Then there was Limmy, who I miss too and Marcia and L.E. and frederico. So many people have left or post sparingly, for their own reasons, that have helped so many new people here. I’m just trying to pitch in and help with my random ramblings.
“I don’t know what I wanted from her. I had fantasies all over the place from running away with her abroad to her and her gentleman friend being family friends. I just wanted her present. I wanted to know she would be there each day and I could feel the relief that I wasn’t alone in life. And I’ve told my wife about these fantasies when she asks. The limerence was like having intense Eros love for a dear friend and the shame of it.”
@Adam.
Yes, it’s interesting. Sometimes, we don’t want anything specific from an LO.
I remember thinking that any kind of physical intimacy between me and LO would be inappropriate. So then I had fantasies about us being best friends in the next life, where people don’t have fleshy desires because they’re angels, or some such.
Some part of my brain must have known that the attraction was related to human sexual instincts, and hence the omnipresent undercurrent of “guilt” regarding the infatuation.
As Dorothy Tennov says, the LO must be someone one can see as a potential sexual partner. There must be some level of attraction there. But sex isn’t the primary focus of limerence, but rather reciprocation of intense feelings. 🤔
Hi Sammy
I came across the following article today and I find it super interesting. Perhaps you’ve seen it before?
It’s a long one, 34 pages . I will recommend it to all limerents to read it. Since we are all looking on how best explain this phenomenon occurring to us. We get the science neurological side of it from Dr. L, which is a great relief in itself!!
HERE IT GOES:
“DIVINE MADNESS “
By:
Keith Sutherland , on the aetiology of Romantic Obsession.
“ The paper opens with a brief overview of “Limerence “ or obsessive love disorder (OLD) from the perspectives of psychology and sociology, but concludes that certain unique characteristics of the condition suggests it is better understood as a form of “divine madness”; resulting from the failure of the platonic ascent of love to follow its natural trajectory… etc etc.
Courage and strength to you and all limerents, a wonderful weekend to all the LwL community.
First off Nisor, I am so thankful to you for posting this article. I am reading it now. Ten pages in and so much of it is so familiar in things I see in myself. So many things. Explaining to myself about the ONE. Why it was only LO that grabbed my attention and may only ever be LO. I really like this …
“‘As the light of the sun makes the pleasant shade of the tree exist and appear, so the Good makes Beauty shine in all things beautiful” — Socrates
It’s true. LO wasn’t any less physically attractive from the day I first met her than she was more attractive the last day I saw her. It’s because I got to see the Good that was inside her and that made the Beauty shine. It was HER. Was I trying to pair bond subconsciously? Was it who she was as a person that I was limerent for not a pretty young face?
Though the case of Vines (which I had never heard of before) makes me worried. As no one has been in my head, single or married, like LO. Just the ONE; her.
“But it’s hard to imagine that Edward Vines would have been prepared to accept even a near-identical clone of Emily Maitlis — there was only ONE person who could satisfy his unrequited passion.”
I am going to keep reading. Maybe I can find out why LO is the ONE and if she will always be. Or if I can escape this. Don’t know if I can and know I don’t want this to go on for 25 years like Vines.
“The vernacular use of words like ‘angel’ by lovers is more literal than they might think (Hazlitt, 2008, p. 76).”
She probably could have made me believe in God again. I frequently referred to her as “an angel” to others. I’ve over the years referred to my wife as “an angel”. (Though funny enough when I called my wife that in front of her sister when we first met she said ‘yeah an angel whose halo is held up by horns.” lol)
So according to Platonic philosophy I am seeking out the Good through LO. And to Christians it’s God. Ok I’ll admit my brain was on board the first twenty pages or so. The limerence extrapolation discussion was on point. It taught me new things about limerence. The real life and fictional examples of limerents and LO’s was very informative. But when the philosophy started getting intense I got kind of overwhelmed. That part of it definitely is going to get another reading. If not the whole paper.
Contemplating LO as a conduit to something divine I am a bit skeptical about. Not so much his conclusions based on the cited philosophers works, but just the idea in general being reality. But then the most philosophy I have read in any detail is Nitecheze and bit of Kant. The concept seems to be too far fetched. But then I guess my agnostic view of divine beings and/or a greater to purpose to life might be why. Academically it seems well thought out. I laughed that he said Augustine “synthesized Neoplatonism with Christianity by removing one vowel”.
I also really like the succinct chapter on transference 🙂 As it is pretty much how I feel about it.
“Many sufferers from limerence experience it in serial form — moving from one target to the next over the course of a lifetime. Whilst this might provide relief for the current LO, it is just kicking the can further down the road.”
If anything came negative of my limerence I hope that LO can forgive me. I didn’t want to make her suffer. Quite to the contrary I wanted to make up for all the bad that she had been through. The heartache of a cheating husband. The hard work it takes to be a single mother. Even if it was in the little things. To see her smile or laugh and try to brighten her day. If I was intrusive or over-bearing to her I couldn’t bear it. I would never want another LO. I would not want to do that to another woman. Though I doubt that will happen.
“This would also suggest that limerence has little to do with sexual
objectification, whereby a person is viewed as an ‘inhuman body”
For me I can relate to his conclusion over Tennov’s that Sammy posted up above. It was never about anything physical for me. LO didn’t glimmer because of her looks. Sure she grabbed my attention because of her looks the first time I met her. But I’m neither dead, blind, or gay. And I don’t even think that last one would make a difference. But it never went beyond that. Honestly my LO fantasies were G rated, maybe PG at the most.
” Tennov’s interviewees were well acquainted with their LO and it was inconceivable to them that the LO could be replaced by someone with similar objective characteristics.”
This is also another thing that makes me think. Back in my early 20’s (I’ve shared this somewhere on this site before) I became very enamored with a young lady that I grew up with that went to church with me. I knew her for a long time but it wasn’t until she was a woman that I noticed her as a man. I am not sure if I was limerent for her. I was very obsessive about getting reciprocation for my feelings for her and did a lot of the same things for her I did with LO but when she made it clear (finally … please ladies don’t string us along just for the attention) that she was not interested in a relationship I got over it fairly quickly. Little too much gin, lots of Air Supply and time alone and I got over her.
But it’s surprising how much LO is like her. In hair, height, build, personality, laugh and smile. The only difference really was their skin color. It makes me wonder if I was unconsciously trying to relive a more happy outcome through LO that I didn’t get with her. Especially since the glimmer for LO came after I got to know her more not at a superficial level.
I better stop of I will get a headache lol. Again Nisor thank you for posting this. It is and will continue to help me understand my limerence and myself.
@Nisor.
Thank you for sharing link to paper. I haven’t read it before. And it provides quite an extraordinary overview of the subject of obsessive love!!
Some things that stood out for me:
Limerence is “hard to understand from a purely Darwinian perspective”. (p. 80).
Limerence makes more sense for females than males, because males are supposedly evolved to spread seed far and wide, and yet there’s no evidence that females are more predisposed to limerence than males. (p 80).
Limerence is “dysfunctional from a social perspective”. (p. 85).
Dorothy Tennov apparently thought limerence could affect up to 42% of human beings, males and females equally. (p. 87).
Limerence may be a “spiritual transformation gone wrong”. (p. 87).
Love and hate involve the same areas of the brain. Love and hate both can lead to extreme behaviour. (p. 94)
“Many sufferers from limerence experience it in serial form…” (p. 95).
The quotes I’ve picked out are mostly science-related, which reflects my interest in understanding limerence from a biological perspective. So it’s a bit of a shock to learn that evolution actually does a poor job of explaining limerence – at least in males! 😲
Like Adam, I found some of the philosophical section a bit heavy-going. The general idea seems to be that the contemplation of beauty can be a doorway to the divine. I think a lot of modern minds aren’t really trained in the art of contemplation. I think modern minds equate beauty with sexuality and not with the divine. I think the philosophy section would make more sense to people living in ancient times or medieval times, and trained in contemplation.
“Divine madness” is a great term for limerence. Although, I think the ancient Greeks called it “the madness FROM the gods”.
Since coming out of the altered state of limerence, my emotions have settled down so much that I hardly recognise myself. But I agree that limerents at times must love and hate their LOs in equal measure. Divine madness indeed.
The musician David Bowie apparently experienced limerence at some point in his life and said that the experience was so overwhelming he believed it must have something to do with searching for God (i.e. something that makes us aware of the divine).
I guess the takeaway from the article might be that modern human beings might benefit from incorporating spirituality into their lives in some way, if only to provide a socially-acceptable outlet for limerent-type feelings? 🤔😉
“As Dorothy Tennov says, the LO must be someone one can see as a potential sexual partner. There must be some level of attraction there. But sex isn’t the primary focus of limerence, but rather reciprocation of intense feelings.”
Sammy
Is my denial of that the reason the limerence lingers I wonder? It seems like such a bad thing to entertain. It makes me feel selfish or immoral. It’s fine to admit that she is an attractive woman. Anyone could see that. But beyond that it’s not right.
I could see that, yes, she would be a great candidate to pair bond with. She held down a job, single mother that loved her children, motivated, determined, strong willed woman. She had a lot of great qualities that would make a good mate/partner/wife. A woman that took the blow of spending all those years and raising two daughters for him to cheat on her. I can’t imagine what that feels like. But she plowed through all that $hit and came out on the other side.
I don’t think I ever wanted that kind of reciprocation. That she would talk to me and smile and laugh at my bad dad jokes was enough. I wasn’t upset to see her with someone, I was upset she left. I was not saddened by the loss of some of her attention to another man I am saddened with the loss of her. But she seems happy now. And that’s all that matters.
@Adam,
I feel that pain of the loss too. Even though LO is in close proximity, work is not the same now that she is not in the building regularly. I’m out of place if I go next door and really have no business being there. But its still not off limits. I’m afraid I would be bothering her if I showed up, so I’d rather stay in my lane. Let her go where she will and if she comes around here again, then so be it. If she is happier where she is at now, then good for her. I’ll try to maintain my happiness for her, the best I can.
That really helps the depression and other issues I talked about the other night (and yes that is severe sarcasm).
I feel like this just validates the point: I will never be good enough or right in any feelings I have. It kinda makes me sick to my stomach, as if throwing up 4 times today wasn’t harsh enough.
I honestly feel like I’m back in high school being laughed at, behind my back, to my face, for having feelings and others wondering how I could be *that* dumb thinking I was worth something.
If she is *the ONE* where do I even begin to fit in? Just the female that had your 2 boys that I went through the fires of hell to get them here and took care of them while you chased rigs as you point out so often. (for those that don’t know what that means, allow an oilfield brat to explain….. it means being in the parts supply side of things, going to rigs that call in orders. That rig may be 15 minutes away from the shop/your house or it could be 3 hours from the shop or house, the call may come at 1pm or 3am. I am an oilfield brat because my dad worked on rigs until I was 14..I’m the baby of the family.. which meant he might have been 10 miles from home or 200 yards from the Texas/Mexico border, home every night or gone for 6 days; home for 3.) I never blamed you or resented the job and trust that you were home with them more than you think or remember.
This is why I said I’d rather have tattoos and piercings, better to have pain that’s constructive rather than destructive to myself.
I meant my marriage vows but I’m never going to be an ethereal anything….I’ve got too many physical, psychological, and emotional scars to compete with that. 🙁
I ask you things and you won’t say it, I have to come here and read it….. because you don’t want to see the tears? They happen, I cry..mad, sad, embarrassed, frustrated, wrecked..even happy…..I’ve been that way for 40+ years. I’m sorry.
🙁 A
ps: Yes, my halo is held up by horns and somewhat lopsided, all 3 of us girls got that from Mama, proudly.
“Is my denial of that the reason the limerence lingers I wonder? It seems like such a bad thing to entertain. It makes me feel selfish or immoral. It’s fine to admit that she is an attractive woman. Anyone could see that. But beyond that it’s not right.”
@Adam.
I don’t think your denial of the sexual element in limerence is the reason your, or anyone else’s limerence, lingers…
I think what happens in limerence is that our brains get washed in all these chemicals and these chemicals make both the world and LO seem technicolour – really, really beautiful and meaningful.
Then, after this technicolour thingy happens, some switch flicks on in the brain which starts a train of obsessive thoughts about the person. Often, one starts swinging between feelings of ecstasy and feelings of despair/misery. The misery is as intense as the ecstasy. All the emotions one feels are going to be greatly intensified.
“I don’t think I ever wanted that kind of reciprocation. That she would talk to me and smile and laugh at my bad dad jokes was enough. I wasn’t upset to see her with someone, I was upset she left. I was not saddened by the loss of some of her attention to another man I am saddened with the loss of her. But she seems happy now. And that’s all that matters.”
It’s good that you can be happy that’s she’s happy. I mean, romantic love can make people do selfish things and romantic love can make people do noble things. I think, however, most limerents, oscillate between selfish and noble impulses!! I.e. I want this person for myself; I want this person to be happy regardless. 😉
I was watching a cheesy Disney movie with my Dad last night. Two female characters were having a conversation and declaring their love for two male characters. My Dad said: “I wonder how they know how to define love?” I.e. how do they know how to define love in order to declare themselves in love? What is love, in other words?
My Dad said he thought a good definition of love is “when you’re with that person, you don’t notice the rest of the world”. My Dad also observed that this form of “love” doesn’t last. I think my dad’s definition of love here is limerence, and not love per se.
I asked my dad if he felt this when he and my mother first got together, and he said yes. He also said he experienced (the total obsession with one person) when I was a child and he a parent. I.e. only my child exists. Other children don’t seem to exist in the world. I’m so absorbed right now in being a parent to my child.
So I think my parents’ marriage did start off with mutual limerence. I think my dad could transition to affectionate bonding, whereas my mother stayed stuck in limerence the whole marriage, leading to a lot of tension. (Possibly an anxious attachment style on her part, childhood trauma, difficulties relating to the male sex in general).
Inside our minds, we sometimes conduct epic romances with our LOs, but they’re not necessarily conducting epic romances inside their minds with us – although they might be very good people. 😉
It’s mainly brain chemicals that produce all the other-worldly feelings and encourage fantasies that the LO is some heavenly creature, etc. Don’t feel guilty about what’s happened with you. Rather, realise that you’ve experienced a lot of other people have experienced also. The intensity of your sadness will fade with time.
“inside our minds, we sometimes conduct epic romances with our LOs, but they’re not necessarily conducting epic romances inside their minds with us – although they might be very good people. 😉“
Sammy, sometimes you hit the nail on the head with amazingly precise words!
@ Mika @sammy
Such realization of each time is like a bucket cold water pouring over head… it hurts as well as ridicules my ego pride.
When standing in front of LO and chatting peacefully, I was just stunned that how on earth I could “conduct any romance” even no barrier existed! LO looks like as ordinary as others, and feels like a Martian inside my system.
The limerence is indeed a long dream in which a pathetic limerent directing a mad romantic show inside my head.
Adam,
Adam,
Did you read your wife’s post? It’s time to decide who and what’s really important to you. We get it. Your LO got inside your head.
People have limits.
Your wife may be reaching hers.
Agreed. Adam, it’s probably time to take a break from analysing LO here and concentrate on building bridges.
Yes, I’m not sure how positive it is for your real relationship for you both to be on this forum, Adam. There comes a point where you have to decide which way to jump.
“I think what happens in limerence is that our brains get washed in all these chemicals and these chemicals make both the world and LO seem technicolour – really, really beautiful and meaningful.”
@Sammy,
That was beautifully worded. So beautiful that even I see it in Technicolor..
@Adam,
There was a ton of underlying sadness in your wife’s post. Go to her.
“If she is *the ONE* where do I even begin to fit in?”
Momma,(for those that don’t know being a lot of people have left the community, this is my wife) she isn’t the ONE. That’s just what my brain tells me. You are the reason are sons are the men that they are. Yes you did raise them almost on your own. Yes you did go through hell bringing them into this world. And they are, and I am eternally grateful for your hard work and sacrifice.
As we talked about last night this is all in my head. And I know that you didn’t ask for this. You didn’t ask to be dragged into this. Our boys didn’t ask to be dragged into this. And as I told you last night I am sorry for this. For what I have done to my family. But I am trying to pull myself out of this. And I am also sorry I don’t do well with saying the things I say here to you in person. But I am glad I was able to last night.
As I told you last night the rescue complex is the biggest part of this attachment. It’s been an issue in almost every romantic relationship that I have been in.
I try. I played Warframe with our son last night without music. I watched The Shooter last night. Yesterday at work I mostly listened to classical music or watched educational videos on youtube to pass the down time. I am trying to not remind myself of her. Focus on you and our son at home. Like now I am going to play some more Warframe with him. And this song is playing on my not “that playlist” playlist and seems an accurate song to finish this post with you.
I love you sugar
Strength of a Woman — Shaggy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mILsx_c-vXw
“People have limits.
Your wife may be reaching hers.”
“Agreed. Adam, it’s probably time to take a break from analysing LO here and concentrate on building bridges.”
“Yes, I’m not sure how positive it is for your real relationship for you both to be on this forum, Adam.”
“There was a ton of underlying sadness in your wife’s post. Go to her.”
The vote seems unanimous. This very well maybe my last post. We talked last night and I responded to her. And here. But if she feels I need to leave this place I will. If so I will miss the friends I have made here in the months that I have been here. The lot of you I will never forget how much that you have done for me.
Dr. L thank you for your hard work and dedication to help those afflicted with limerence. God knows I might not even still have a wife if not for you and this community.
Good luck and godspeed to you both, Adam.
Please know also Friend that should you choose to stay away, you have been an immense help to me and to others here that have come and gone. That is a gift from God.
I have appreciated how you have seemed to always “get” where I am coming from. You put into words very often, what I cannot.
For that and your friendship, I thank you..
Adam, DmmitHardison, good luck for both of you, I wish you all the best!!
Adam, I’d be sorry to see you go and thank you for your kind words to me over the last couple of months, but it might help to take a break for a while. There is a point at which keeping talking about your LE is just fueling the fire. The blog is incredibly useful but it’s important, I think, to use it as a tool to help get out of an LE and not as a place to ruminate. Support yes, and goodness knows it’s been so helpful to me for that, but keeping talking about your LO and how amazing she is is just keeping her at the forefront of your mind.
Damnit,
You’re the second “oil field brat” that I’ve encountered.
One of the enlisted guys under me in the Navy was one. He told similar stories. He said that his father worked when they needed money and when the fields were pumping.
I remember him telling me that he and I had really different ideas about money. He said that when I wanted a shovel, I’d pick one up for $2 at a garage sale. He said that when he wanted a shovel, he would go to the store and buy the most expensive shovel they had.
For him, the shovel was a symbol of his economic success.
““inside our minds, we sometimes conduct epic romances with our LOs, but they’re not necessarily conducting epic romances inside their minds with us – although they might be very good people. 😉“
Sammy, sometimes you hit the nail on the head with amazingly precise words!”
@Mila.
Thank you. I suspect this one sentence is probably one of the best sentences I’ve composed while thinking about limerence.
It’s strange how sometimes one’s thinking only becomes clearer after and/or during conversations with other people. I guess that’s the “social aspect” of learning? 😉
@Sammy,
but it‘s not the only sentence that hits it just right. You write a lot that I personally cannot relate to maybe because our life situations are too different, but every now and then there comes a well articulated but honest and authentic insight that really goes „bam“ right into the center of truth:)
By the way, it’s astounding how much I had to scroll up for the reply button🙈
To everyone that picked up the meaning of my post…. I don’t want him to leave here *if* it helps him.
There are newer people here so my backstory: I have Rapid Cycling Bipolar, PTSD, Anxiety none of which are a choice or can be put down like I was able to put down a Vodka bottle and remain sober for 4+ years, with no urge to drink again. Those issues can be managed and controlled by medications (some times) so I’m not going to be a hypocrite and say I can’t be a massive wench out of nowhere or that I don’t crawl inside myself to protect those around me …including myself. But I’m not going to Vegas or finding a slew of guys and then say “Well I was in a mania” it doesn’t, can’t and shouldn’t work that way, for me. I have extreme body image issues that go back to my pre-teens, that I never had therapy for until I was diagnosed with the BPD/PTSD/Anxiety, and those rear their ugliness still, I have surgical scars, I have accident scars but I also have the other kind (this is the reason for the tattoo/piercings comment) because I have those body image issues that rear up still.
I have empathy for anyone that has any kind of mental/psychological/brain misfire issue going on, whether it is something I understand or not, I fight stigmas everyday. I do not understand limerence in the way that others do, anymore than I would expect a person that’s never known a person with Bipolar to understand it (and this is an important thing, if someone does know 1 person with Bipolar, they know 1 person with it because it manifests differently in each person). I can get the science or research, but not the everyday of it, that is why I started …with Adam’s permission…. reading here and posted.
Here’s where it comes to a straight forward issue. . . he’s marinating in it, and I told him this earlier today. He says to me he’s working through it and I read his posts and it’s like he’s not working through it but keeping it fresh in mind. Please know, I get intrusive thoughts more on the scary side, so I can relate to others that have intrusive thoughts (scary or not scary). I’ve tried to help him find the ways to stop them, distraction by change of subject, change of location just little ways that I know have helped me and hoped he could adapt those into what works for him.
I have never and would never tell him what to do about anything, and I’m being serious (except when I forced him to the ER when his appendix ruptured and went gangrene or when I told him he had no choice in seeing the dr when he could’ve thrown clots and stroked out from untreated heart issues…. that’s life and death stuff though). He was raised as a Jehovah’s Witness… I was not (my immediate family had no specific denominational ties) but I always fully supported any decision he made in regards to it and still would, he never pressured me, I never pressured him.
I can’t and I won’t tell him to stop posting even though he asked me if he should stop. It’s not and can’t be my decision, I can certainly stop reading if that’s what he needs. but C for Cat summed it up with “The blog is incredibly useful but it’s important, I think, to use it as a tool to help get out of an LE and not as a place to ruminate. Support yes, and goodness knows it’s been so helpful to me for that, but keeping talking about your LO and how amazing she is is just keeping her at the forefront of your mind.” and in the last 3 or so months, I’ve seen him doing just that.
Thank you all for being here for him and understanding in him what I can’t quite grasp.
“…but it‘s not the only sentence that hits it just right. You write a lot that I personally cannot relate to maybe because our life situations are too different, but every now and then there comes a well articulated but honest and authentic insight that really goes „bam“ right into the center of truth:)”
@Mila.
Thank you for your kind words. I am happy if anyone finds something worthwhile in my contributions.
I do apologise to you in advance if some of my comments might not strike quite the right chord, either in terms of tone or content. Being sensitive to other people’s feelings isn’t really my strong suit. I am more of a teacher personality than a counsellor personality. 🤔
It’s very, very hard to say the right thing in the best of times. Then, of course, there’s the issue that a lot of people visiting LwL are in incredible pain/distress, and not really in the right frame of mind to enjoy jokes. I realise that not all of my remarks are as compassionate, or as worded as compassionately, as they could be.
All I can say is that I have experience limerence myself at least once in my life. It made me feel really, really down. I ended up being suicidally depressed. And I’ve spent a lot of time since trying to understand what could possibly make a good person feel so bad? It seems that limerence was the cause of my sadness, but the doctors I spoke to didn’t seem familiar with the concept of lovesickness. 😉
Am doing much better now, in case you’re wondering. 😛
@Dammnit,
“Marinating” is a good way to describe it.
I’ve been on LwL ~5 years. My early posts are way different than my current posts. I’ve seen people come and go. I’d like to think that the people that left did so because they don’t need what LwL offers.
I find the dynamics of organizations really interesting. LwL has changed over the years. The early posters seemed more like-minded, less philosophically diverse, more focused on ending limerence, and more hard-edged. It was far less enabling. I miss the original Cadre.
People on LwL change over time. When Marcia first started posting, I don’t think she and I could agree that the sky is blue and grass is green. Now, we’re at least in the same hemisphere, maybe even the same quadrant on a lot of things.
It can be easy to get stuck here. LwL can provide the validation that can really help you understand the problem. That’s good but you still have to address the problem.
Right now, I see a lot of idling. To pilot any vessel requires propulsion and a rudder. You need both. Some people are rudderless and don’t know where to go. Some people know the right answer but are incapable or unwilling to do what it takes.
Getting past limerence is hard. The first step is wanting to do it.
@Limerent Emeritus,
„Idling“ is exactly what I’m doing here at the moment, it’s true, and it’s also true that it is enabling.
It’s indulging in LE without the danger I would be in if I would write to LO instead, but still indulging.
I don’t count the times where I unload something that tortures me, simply because I cannot tell anybody else. That I allow myself to do. But that doesn’t happen that often.
Also I‘m interested in this transference question I asked Speedwagon in terms that it might give me some insight.
The rest is actually not really necessary for me to post and I bet doesn’t help anybody else apart from enabling them.
I should get a grip and find myself some more purposeful things to do to distract me from writing to LO.
Thanks for that (I know that you didn’t mean to put me or anyone down, you were observing, but you were absolutely right.)!
I will immediately stop reloading this page until at least tonight🙈and stop idling..
@LE @Mila
I found that none-LE/LO topics, philosophy, literature, psychology in general, arts, FOO, actually help more efficiently transfer my mind to a broader world outside of the focused LE/LO, therefore reduce the intensity of limerence. To me, changing habitual mentality is the hardest; if remove addictive LE, something more purposeful need to fill the “void”. Then intellectual explorations and discusses of other aspects in life, particularly abstract or intangible ones, could serve such a demanding goal to certain extend, much better than “brainlessly” punching a sand bag.
@Mila
I am still on the same boat with you here: in order NOT to dwell on unavailable LO and the nostalgia of the recent past, I come here rambling about other topics as a temporary transference — much better than drinking excessively or daydreaming on a coach or mindlessly watching Netflix (I could not even focus on interesting movies). Sometimes LE is taking up our entire brain, more powerful than all other mental works combined, Those blood neurochemicals!
When seeing some good or complex views from others in LwL, my mind immediately begins to ramble and ponder over what’s my view on those points? Never thought about or challenged, my stands are always vague. Then my curiosity takes over LE, thinking and ruminating over my stands and how I could respond in logical ways. Thus, LE and LO are naturally pushed into distance from 1-24 hours although they still flash in and out with much quiet presence. Unknown or unexamined topics often draw my curiosity and enquirers, which can be very effective to help us limerent come out of narrow LE sphere.
There are times I felt it’s wasting time to chitchat here, since they go nowhere. However, watching my mind closely and looking from different angle, it has helped me clear my muddled mind on so many areas in my life, and reduced greatly the intensity of my ongoing limerence — it just can NOT be killed in one GO, perhaps 1 year or longer? Now I know for sure that combining workout, mediation, superficial socializing, and increasing knowledge about LE/LO alone, is still NOT enough to get out my LE.
So I take it easier nowadays to “waste time” to post here, treating it as a walk-in therapy for my LE — an online Rehab with DrL as a ghost-director and guidance, us invisible ghost-limerents as our own therapists — no one else could do the work for us in reality anyway. Learning and discovering more about my “oddball” Self, I know for sure I do not need a professional shrink at this point; I have had a long “tastes” of them, who could possibly “help” some others. One Ph.D psychoanalysis specializing in cptsd, Asperger, generational and cultural traumas worsened my wounds by having reenacted my childhood traumas with my narc mom. 😱
In addition, I get to practice my written English along the way. What medium could be better? — I need to edit my post 2-4 times depending on content. 🤔
@Limerent Emeritus
I saw this phenomenon years ago while haunting forums and blogs on narcissism. They’re supposed to help you heal from whatever narcissist hurt you, then you move on. But many people would stay stuck instead, still there years later, ruminating until they became narcissistic themselves. Eventually you have to grab hold of your mind and force it to think about other things.
Gosh! So much going on at LwL last couple of days I’ve been away. I was at a well-being event and actually good to see loads of new people, new perspectives and get out of one’s own head ( @Sammy will be proud) Im trying to stop reading so much here, despite the intelligent conversation, support and kindness. I think I may be somewhat obsessive (OCD?) , as refreshing LWL comments has become a new habit on top of checking my LOs online status and some other habits/dependencies which are actually probably more serious. Wake up call to self !
@LE is a total legend, dare I say veteran on LwL whose observations are valuable. We all view and use LwL differently but it can be a potential echo chamber. It’s easy to see why, it’s a revelation to find limerence is a thing, (not just ‘you’ being a crazy mad person) and we are part of an unknown tribe. But after that initial revelation it’s best to seek – as well as LwL – a broader source of knowledge, insights and support.
@Adam. If you read this. When we first connected we did converse on whether continuing here was good for you and if other groups/forums may be good for you at this stage of your LE, to let go. Here was your reply :- https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-four-phases-of-no-contact/#comment-43561
I wish you the best if you do choose to move on, as we will all surely do so at some point. Thank you for the openness and kindness, especially for the LwL newbies. Heartfelt best wishes
@Serial Limerent
” But many people would stay stuck instead, still there years later, ruminating until they became narcissistic themselves.”
Yep.
I saw something similar on LO #4’s site. I was a moderator for her for 2-3 years or so. After awhile, you could see who was going to be just fine, who could go either way, and who was probably going to be in the wilderness forever.
Life is one big triage system. Some people will thrive no matter what you do to them. Some people will fail no matter what you do for them. But, for the vast majority of people, how they turn out is in some way proportional to what goes into them. For some people, a little input yields an exponential return. For some people, a lot of input yields a fractional return. Everybody’s different.
It’s long past time I should be gone but I like it here. At this point, I don’t think I’m going to learn anything new. Things are pretty good ATM and nothing about the LOs is going to make my life better. DrL isn’t breaking a lot of new ground, he’s refining a lot of early material. The blogs are more nuanced. I saw that with LO #4, too.
It’s been over a year and a half since my last social media drive by. I’m not same person I was over a decade ago when I started my last LE. It’s not that I don’t think about them anymore, it’s just that they have no place in my life. My latest rumination theme about LO #2 is looking back at all the times I should have walked and didn’t. In retrospect, I had plenty of warnings and should have believed my indications. But, I didn’t. The EAP counselor said that for a smart guy, I was a very slow learner.
But, I eventually learned.
The question, “What would you do with that knowledge if you had it?” isn’t a a mantra anymore, it’s a way of life.
C for cat,
That’s what’s called peer pressure in schools. If you don’t mingle with rules breakers you’re considered a nerd. Thanks God I didn’t have to deal with peer pressure at any stage in my life.
How are you doing these days? 💪🏽
Hi everyone! As promised I’m back from my 40 day self-imposed break from LwL to give an update. Just want to say that everything’s perfect now, LO moved away, we agreed to NC, I’m over her already, my limerence is cured forever…
Oh if only it was that simple 🤣
In reality, I am glad that I stepped away from actively participating in this group, as like I’d said before, it had become an obsession of its own for me. I seem to form obsessions so easily… but I do feel like stepping away gave me back more of my time each day and probably has turned down the intensity of my limerence to some extent just because I haven’t been reading and writing about it constantly.
Regarding my actual situation with LO… she pretty much cut off contact with me for most of July and early August, just out of the blue after being really warm and friendly with me for all of June. I finally pressed her for an explanation, and she revealed that she’d had a couple big fights with her SO about his prior infidelity and that naturally got her feeling really bad about talking with me so she decided to cut contact again. And of course that makes perfect sense, so again I agreed to respect LC until she left the workplace. Then a week later, she got all warm and friendly with me again, and for the last couple of weeks we been talking all the time (including several deep, emotionally intimate, hours-long conversations), and the relationship feels as warm and emotionally close as it ever has. She gave me the warmest hug ever last week – the kind of hug that let me know completely that she loves me, trusts me and feels safe with me. Strangely it didn’t leave me craving more – it was just so satisfying that a week later I still don’t really have any anxiety about our relationship despite all the uncertainty.
I was thinking about how confused I’ve been by all of her hot/cold behavior, but then I realized it’s really not confusing at all – she’s just struggling with the same feelings I am, she wants to be appropriate and do the right thing, she has the added context of being the aggrieved spouse in her SO’s infidelity recently, but she also just really craves closeness with me like I do with her – so she clearly has an internal struggle just like I do and it presents itself as all of this hot and cold behavior. It’s really not nearly as confusing or mysterious as I keep making it out to be – it actually makes complete sense, and realizing that does make it somewhat easier to deal with.
The other thing that’s still up in the air is her future in our workplace. She had actually set a quit date in mid September, submitted her resignation to her supervisor, notified her coworkers that she was leaving. And immediately afterward she changed her mind and started trying to find a way to stay after all – now she’s withdrawn her resignation and is trying to work with HR to modify her schedule in a way that’ll let her keep working here part time for the next 2 years while she’s in school – but it’s still up in the air whether they’ll agree to accommodate her or not.
So… at this point we’re back in a warm cycle in our relationship, which based on our last year of history I know will turn back into a cold cycle sometime soon, and it’s like 50/50 if she’ll be leaving in a couple of weeks or if she’ll be staying for at least a couple more years. Strangely I feel pretty calm about everything right now… I kind of have a “whatever happens happens” feeling. Either she’ll leave in 2 weeks, it’ll hurt a lot, but then I’ll get my sanity back long term. Or she’ll stay, we’ll avoid the pain of having to say goodbye, but we’ll have to navigate an ongoing relationship for years to come. Either way, it’s not up to me, so I’m trying not to worry about it or future-trip too much.
My relationship with SO is going really well – we’re continuing to get along great, we feel emotionally close and connected, and I feel so much love and affection for her. We text each other all day, have great conversations at night, share lots of cuddles and physical intimacy, have weekly date nights…. There’s really nothing lacking in our relationship at this point, and my ongoing relationship with LO is all about my bond with her, not about anything missing with SO. It continues to amaze me how much love I can genuinely feel for two people at the same time.
My relationship with myself… still a work in progress. I still feel a restlessness and a feeling of missing something that I can’t put my finger on, but those feelings aren’t too strong at this time. I’m feeling plenty engaged in my work and my family and feel relatively purposeful in my day to day life.
Anyway, I could have more to write, but my plane’s about to take off. I do want to say that I’ve been skimming the posts here intermittently over the past month and keeping up with everyone’s stories, and I do miss you all! I’m planning to engage periodically over the next few days while I’m on my little work trip, so it’ll be good to catch up with any old friends who wants to chat!
Welcome back, LIS!
“I was thinking about how confused I’ve been by all of her hot/cold behavior, but then I realized it’s really not confusing at all – she’s just struggling with the same feelings I am, she wants to be appropriate and do the right thing, she has the added context of being the aggrieved spouse in her SO’s infidelity recently, but she also just really craves closeness with me like I do with her – so she clearly has an internal struggle just like I do and it presents itself as all of this hot and cold behavior. It’s really not nearly as confusing or mysterious as I keep making it out to be – it actually makes complete sense, and realizing that does make it somewhat easier to deal with.”
The aggrieved infidelity partner is a killer. When the therapist asked how I’d feel about cutting LO #4 off, I told her I’d feel like a schmuck for turning my back on her when she was reaching out to me. The therapist said, “There’s the guilt.” [out of Fear, Obligation, Guilt, and Shame]
It also doesn’t help when your LO is trying to do the right thing. It doesn’t make you think less of them, it endears them more to you. It’s worse when the right thing isn’t blatantly obvious.
Yeah, she’s an absolute sweetheart whose life has been a long series of traumas and betrayals by everyone important to her. To the best of my knowledge, I’m the only person in the world she feels comfortable talking with about her struggles. Makes it pretty hard to just walk away from her… That’s probably one of the two main reasons I want to find a way to keep our relationship alive without letting it get out of hand (the other being the good feelings I get when she shines her warmth on me).
Yeah,
I told LO #4 that I never wanted to be on the list of people who betrayed her, hurt her, or let her down.
The way things ended, I may not be near the top of the list but I’m pretty sure that I’m on it.
Queue up “You Always Hurt The One You Love.”
L.I.S.
With this message, I am breaking my resolve to ease up, or to stop posting altogether, on this site. I feel that I’ve moved on, to a degree, although I carefully followed your earlier posts and some of them were quite jaw-dropping.
This is my honest impression about what you have said today.
“It continues to amaze me how much love I can genuinely feel for two people at the same time.”
I don’t believe this is tenable, especially in a limerent situation, and I feel that you still seem to be wanting to have your cake and eat it. Limerence is not a game, it’s often a painful experience.
Overall, I think that, somehow, you are deluding yourself.
I do not have the benefit, or the complication, of a SO. For my own situation, I am trying to be realistic, although of course it’s tough. That’s maybe why I get grumpy.
I sincerely wish you every happiness together with an end to the torment. No offence was intended. This was a rather tricky message to express.
All best,
f
Hi, LIS. Thank you again for helping me 40 days ago. I hope you are able to love and connect with your SO as much as she wants.
Hey LIS, I’m glad you had a good 40 days in the basement. Glad to see you back here and hear an update. Sounds like you are finding some peace but also still in the midst of an uncertain emotional affair. In some ways I am rooting for your LO to quit and you can move on to post LO life. But it must also be nice to be loved so intensely by someone.
My relationship with LO has basically devolved to work/project interaction only. Mostly my own doing as I have found that strict LC, where I disengage from LO personally, keeps me in the best emotional state. For the most part I only interact with LO now on a work level and keep away from even the most superficial personal chit chat. It’s fairly easy because my LO, unlike your LO, seems completely indifferent to me and also has never been an initiator with me ever. So, I just need not initiate myself and all seems to stay status quo.
There has been a few things said here lately that resonate with me. One, as limerents we seek the same intensity of emotion from LO that we have for them and that is very true of me. It’s an all or nothing game for me and since I can’t have all, I choose nothing. Also, our LOs are illuminated in Technicolor while everyone else is washed in grey. Again, true for me and so I do what I can to mute the intense desire for LO by disengaging.
At this point I’m exhausted, just doing the best I can to manage the coexistence with her, and hoping that someday, by the grace of God, she steps out of my life. I think it’s sad to feel like this, to have LE ruin even a basic friendship but for my own well being this is what it has to be.
“There has been a few things said here lately that resonate with me. One, as limerents we seek the same intensity of emotion from LO that we have for them and that is very true of me. It’s an all or nothing game for me and since I can’t have all, I choose nothing. Also, our LOs are illuminated in Technicolor while everyone else is washed in grey. Again, true for me and so I do what I can to mute the intense desire for LO by disengaging.”
@Speedwagon.
I quite like this paragraph. Seems to sum the limerent state up pretty well… 😜
Hey LiS,
Welcome back. The place hasn’t been the same without you. Miss your lively banter and pleasant demeanor.
Looks like your LE is kinda neither good nor bad. But you seem to have a healthy outlook, so good for you.
If you’ve been following my story, not too much has changed. LO still primarily works next door these days but has been making appearances in our warehouse over here from time time. Usually she is too busy or with friends or I am in the wrong place at the wrong time, so there’s really been no progress. She doesn’t seem all that interested anymore, yet I’ll catch her looking my way if I’m around. Whatever that means. Her hours are odd over there now and it looks like she’s only working half days, but I can’t confirm that either.
I’ve made a 2nd attempt to get into therapy and now have been rejected a 2nd time due to this limerence that seems to stupify them. I don’t know if it’s just my ignorance or theirs or maybe it’s my bad attitude about feeling like I need help over it. But they tell me I’m not the right fit. That I probably need therapy that’s a little more comprehensive. It’s horse$#!+!! They just don’t know a damn thing about limerence and don’t want to fake it like they do. I truthfully don’t want to go through the aggravation of telling my story again. I’ll feel like I’ll have to fib a story just to get in, but really I’m just skeptical about the whole therapy idea anyway. It’s not like I want to kill this LO obsession. My options haven’t really improved, so it’s all I’ve got. I don’t know if paying somebody to tell me stuff I think I already know or suggest things I don’t really want to do will actually help me. I’m already bitter about so much anyway. I feel almost like it could set me back.. Limerence is just terrible. I wish the whole thing had never happened. I’d be so much better off.
Anyway, enough of my downer story. Go do your trip thing and check back in later if you feel like replying. Not sure when I’ll get back to you but I will at some point.
“I’m already bitter about so much anyway. I feel almost like it could set me back.. Limerence is just terrible. I wish the whole thing had never happened. I’d be so much better off.”
@MJ.
I think I might know where you’re coming from emotionally. Limerence is terrible in the sense of fixation, sadness, wanting to be alone, not enjoying life as one used to, outbursts of anger, stress, constant anxiety, etc. The apparently involuntary nature of the mood swings can make one feel pretty lousy too due to frequent bad moods and inability to predict bad moods.
Limerence can be beautiful too if it motivates people (who can be together) to pair-bond and reproduce. That’s probably the ideal evolutionary outcome, but many people don’t end up with said ideal outcome. 🤔
I think the important thing to remember is that limerence is a PART of life, but it’s not the WHOLE of life. Most people weren’t in an altered state prior to LE and one day they’ll return to an ordinary state. Limerence should probably be seen as a temporary period of great upheaval in one’s life.
I found something that helped me moved on is to identify and let go of any lingering feelings of resentment (toward anyone in life, not necessarily LO). Resentment creates emotional blockages it would seem. Resentment can make it hard to let go of a person or of an imaginary relationship – even if that person hasn’t done anything wrong. I think I felt resentment toward my father for (perceived) rejection of me when I was young. Also, resentment toward my mother for maybe relying on me too much.
My parents had a very unhappy marriage. Sometimes, I wonder whether one-sided limerence played a part in this unhappiness? I think, biologically speaking, men and women are destined to desire each other, and that’s fine. But desire seems to come packaged with misunderstanding.
I wonder if the thing that makes men and women desire each other so much is also the thing that makes men and women misunderstand each other so much, and struggle to live in harmony? Perhaps attraction really does lie in the mystery of the desired other? If the other stops being mysterious, then desire for the other often disappears too. 🤔
Limerence has helped me be less judgemental toward my parents regarding their marital struggles, because I realise that so much of the “dance” between men and women is beyond my understanding – not to mention the understanding of the parties doing the actual dance!! 😉
“I think, biologically speaking, men and women are destined to desire each other… “
I need to make a MANTRA out of this statement!
My Culture of Origin (COO) has made this biological desire for pair bonding immoral and evil, which demoralized or even criminalized my inner self all my life. Even when both sides were available, I could not and did not verbalize my affections to the other side; “I love you” in my original tongue would make my whole body cringe and my stomach literally churning…
Now, can you image how I have felt during LE, secretly desiring for an unavailable LO w/ SO? — I became the “devil” myself possessed by god-knows-what?
Now, I become more relaxed, which enables me to stop shaming and berating my normal self, in or out of limerence. I am actually feeling good that I am a limerent, capable of deep love! (Just don’t slip into that limerence)
“My Culture of Origin (COO) has made this biological desire for pair bonding immoral and evil, which demoralized or even criminalized my inner self all my life. Even when both sides were available, I could not and did not verbalize my affections to the other side; “I love you” in my original tongue would make my whole body cringe and my stomach literally churning…”
@Snowphoenix.
It’s interesting how some very conservative cultures do try to create barriers between men and women, through religion, social customs, etc. It’s interesting how some cultures DO place all sorts of taboos around sexuality/romantic attraction.
My first thoughts … the biological drive for men and women to be together must be SO STRONG that the biological drive frequently overrides cultural barriers.
Let’s put it another way. If the natural drive for men and women to be together was weak, then strong cultural barriers wouldn’t be necessary to stop men and women from getting together. Strong barriers are only necessary if there’s strong intrinsic desire.
Culture and biology don’t work hand-in-hand. Culture is often an attempt to contain biology, subdue biology, redirect biology. And sometimes this cultural interference is appropriate and justified and sometimes this cultural interference may be too heavy-handed. 😉
@Sammy
“It’s interesting how some cultures DO place all sorts of taboos around sexuality/romantic attraction.”
To this day, I am unable to talk with any WOMEN (just forget men in this arena) from my COO about normal hormones, sexuality, or strong romantic attraction. If I mention a few words, they looked at me with a facial blush and just giggled. I was so inhabited that I could not even talk with exSO (LO #4)and xLOs (#5, #6) about those issues, even when problems surfaced. I was silently frustrated, suffered and endured.
“My first thoughts … the biological drive for men and women to be together must be SO STRONG that the biological drive frequently overrides cultural barriers.”
We were raised by COO since birth to accept such a desire as “immoral” or “dirty”. As a fearful kid with cptsd (I passed out at 6ish yrs, w/ 3 other girls, right before a molestation possibly took place (by a neighborhood young man with “the look” — still crystal clear in my mind) and lost all my memory of the incident— still don’t know what happened or how I got home), how could I ever view such a desire in any other positive or healthy way? During my teens, I covered my face with a scarf in the streets so as to avoid that frightening “look” from strangers — I always thought something wrong with me and never felt at ease with myself, except with books. Other girls talked about dress, I questioned about Nietzsche’s aphorism.
“Culture and biology don’t work hand-in-hand. Culture is often an attempt to contain biology, subdue biology, redirect biology. And sometimes this cultural interference is appropriate and justified and sometimes this cultural interference may be too heavy-handed. “
It seems to me, outside of the relatively “free” West, this cultural interference is still too “heavy-handed” on people’s mentality in so many cultures. DrL’s articles, particularly through neuroscience lens, helped me understand human biology and greatly liberate my old thinking.
We can never underestimate power of brainwash (eg. ISIS). That’s why DrL suggests mental reprogramming as an important method to help cure LE, without a strong mind guiding our thinking and behaving, limerence or any other types of addiction would never go away.
As the cliche goes: there is a wish, there is way.
@Sammy,
It just dawned to me that the aforementioned (learned from your passage) trauma was the unconscious reason why my glimmer ALWAYS took the priority to LO’s. If a guy glimmered at me first, he lost a chance for good to be my LO! I did not consciously choose to be this way, my traumatized mind automatically directed such a genomic, protective, neurological impulse.
Looking back, I could affirm: LO #1, 2, 4, 7 are quite “safe” to glimmer at and chase after. They share a similar aura….
LwL has help me understand humanity with its infinite colorful hues that now I think I can forgive even a murder among us limerent—ghosts. 👻
@Snowphoenix.
It sounds like your culture of origin has heavily shaped your experience of limerence. In light of this fact, I’ll try to word my responses to you very respectfully. I don’t want to give offence on cultural grounds. Also, incidentally, as a general rule, I try to approach limerence from a scientific perspective. Science is my general guide in life, although I do sometimes go off-track into philosophy or pop culture, so bear with me when I lose focus… 😉
I grew up in the supposedly liberated West. But I didn’t have a normal upbringing by any means. I was raised Christian. I had a very strong, very dominant mother who was quite controlling. The family environment I grew up in was very sheltered and cut off from other families. So, to some extent, I understand what it’s like to grow up in a very traditional, very conservative, very prudish culture. Even Anglo-Saxons can grow up in puritanical settings.
Regarding your experiences with potentially predatory males growing up, I’m very sorry you had to endure that. I feel that my understanding of human males is far too optimistic/forgiving/generous at times, because I didn’t come into contact with any truly awful males growing up. My father was very gentle/reserved. I guess social isolation does have its benefits? 🤔
But, yes, male sexuality (as a purely biological drive not subject to societal restraints) does have a problematic side: a dark and aggressive element. And I think, from a safety perspective, females and especially younger females need to aware that male sexuality can have this dark and aggressive aspect. Sadly, traditional societies often excuse bad behaviour from males but not bad behaviour from females, so there is very much a double standard in play. 🤔
My sisters, despite growing up in the “free” West, still have struggled all their lives to feel comfortable around straight males. So being “uncomfortable around men” isn’t necessarily an issue only affecting females in traditional societies/non-Western countries. A healthy sense of mistrust around men can be a good thing for girls/women not yet comfortable navigating the gendered world.
Any “brainwashing” I received around sexuality probably came from inside the family home. My mother, bless her, gave me a book on male puberty to read when I reached the appropriate age. However, my mother, being the delightfully odd woman that she is, decided to glue together all the pages containing any information regarding sex/sexuality. So all I learnt about male puberty was … diet and exercise. I don’t know why my mother gave me a book on male puberty if she didn’t want me to learn anything useful!! 😆
I think, on a subconscious level, maybe my mother didn’t want me to grow up to be a “normal male” because she had had so many bad experiences with “normal males” herself. But not letting a child develop psychologically into full adulthood (out of love or out of fear of possible consequences) can create serious adjustment problems for said child when said child becomes a chronological adult. Mothers do have to let their sons become men … eventually. 😉
“To this day, I am unable to talk with any WOMEN (just forget men in this arena) from my COO about normal hormones, sexuality, or strong romantic attraction. If I mention a few words, they looked at me with a facial blush and just giggled.”
I tried to talk to straight male peers about sexuality when I was in my early 20s. That didn’t go down very well. The males in my (Western) culture turned out to be as shy as the females, and perhaps even more prudish. I mostly got the same responses of deep embarrassment and/or amusement that you did. So I think embarrassment around sexuality is a universal human phenomenon, and not something peculiar to a particular sex or background. 🤔
There can be a big disparity between a country’s “official culture” (i.e. free and easy) and how people in that culture actually act. In other words, when you see Westerners living hedonistic lifestyles on TV , please don’t assume you’re missing out. Most Westerners aren’t really doing all the things that characters on TV are doing!! 😉
@Snowphoenix.
Another interesting point about limerence that you may observe in yourself – limerence appears to speed up one’s mental processes. So one might end up with racing thoughts, long lists of questions about life, etc, and wonder why everybody else’s brain isn’t operating in identical fashion…
For example, when one asks friends questions, and friends don’t have the same questions, or can’t answer questions asked, one might assume one’s friends are slow-witted or uncaring. But this isn’t really the case. Limerence is almost a form of mania.
Limerence = amount/rate of activity in brain greatly increased.
Moral of the story: be patient with friends who aren’t on the same wavelength or who can’t provide the answers to questions you may ask. Such friends are probably not going through limerence. 😉
@sammy
After divorce, I tried a few months of “Westerners living hedonistic lifestyles on TV,” it was so boring, meaningless, even disgusting. So I stayed in most of the time. Solitude is not my issue, books are more fun to be with —I rarely felt being left out but “rich and full” at their companies.
Yes, the mental activities and creativity are amazingly high during limerence, making me believe LE is beneficial thing — if I cannot be with LO, at least my mind is flying all over the universe , “producing” something new. Naturally I want to hold onto that “inspiration” for some realistic productivity. But the mind is often hijacked with intrusive thoughts about LO, even just a still, blurry icon.
My mind has been slowing down, not sure it’s due to the “dopamine low” (LO is back in scene, twice or less a week, and felt like a courteous Martian again) or I’m slowly leaving limerence. A refrigerator buzz depression is kicking in….
I’m closely watching my mind with so much newly gained LE knowledge… and trying more meditation and seeing other friends.
Everything in “How Indecision Worsens Limerence” resonates with me. I do need more courage. I do need more decisiveness. I do need to live more purposefully. Or else I need to accept that I can stay safe in my comfort zone and remain alone while being slowly driven crazy by the inside of my mind.
I had to make a very purposeful decision today. Next week I have an out of office project meeting that I am setting up. LO is working on the project. I could easily take LO to this meeting, spend half a day with her alone, grab lunch with her. A sort of day date. It would be well within normal business operations and quite honestly, LO would want to go. Any of my other employees, I would take them without hesitation.
Alas, I opted to schedule the meeting on LOs day off (She is part time). I just can’t spend that time with her and come out of it unscathed. It will send me into a multi day malaise. I hate that I have to treat her different, but I just do for my personal sanity. LO won’t be the wiser about it, meetings happen all the time where I go alone and don’t bring an employee. But I feel bad about it. In the game of limerence no one wins.
@speedwagon
Congratulations on continuing to “fight the good fight” !! You are strong and purposeful and doing the right thing for you and your well-being AND not compromising your work ethics and processes . a full-on WIN all round. Be Proud !! If you struggle just think subconsciously that you can take her next time,to trick you into feeling better, although you are likely to make the same strong decision not to.
You are stronger than me right now for sure. I’m due to be in my LOs country soon. I’ve not arranged anything with him at all, despite knowing my schedule , I’m too scared to propose a day/time. He knows I will be over too so if I don’t arrange something it would be seen as hurtful by him(to not have a coffee at least). The reality is it may be the last time I see him F2F. Every time we are F2F could be the last time. ( rocket fuel for limerence!!) I really want to see him of course but it’s always so very intense on both sides. I’m worried on a major scale, what to wear, what to say, I want to just pretend I cannot travel because Im ill or something….
“If you struggle just think subconsciously that you can take her next time,to trick you into feeling better, although you are likely to make the same strong decision not to.”
This is great advice because yes, I am struggling with this.
@IMHO.
Hope your upcoming meeting goes well, keep us posted.
IMHO, I wrote something to you in a post to ABCD further down which is really stupid and now I‘m confused, maybe you can find it… sorry to ABCD and you..
@Speedwagon.
Great job, you made the right decision, even though it may not feel like that at present. Perhaps later you will be able to reach a stage where you can have more controlled LO interactions, but till that time, it’s better to pull back. These are my 2 cents.
Speedwagon, I am in a similar situation of doing the right thing against the limerence, but feeling bad about it.
Cannot say more, only sending understanding thoughts… don’t know why it feels so wrong when it should feel right.
Mila, Speedwagon
On doing the right thing…
Congratulations to both of you for standing 💪🏽 strong in your purpose to squash limerence.
These little sacrifices sometimes feels like we’re punishing ourselves from some kind of reward we somehow deserve.
It’s tough alright! For each “sacrifice” you make , try to reward yourselves with a little something like a dinner outside with So or a friend, or buy something nice you’d like to have. It will feel good , it’s like taking points for good behavior…
Best wishes to all.
@Nisor, I ate a lot of chocolate right now in some attempt to get a good feeling, does that count?😆thank you for the kind words.
@Speed,
I give you credit friend. You are pretty resolute in your effort to keep LO at arms length. Then again, you still have an intact family and a Wife you love. I’m jealous of both, but in a friendly way. I’d love to be in your position. I know LO aggravates so much of your psych, but at least you have a level of friendship. Even if it is only professional.
Keep doing you. Your prayers may just get answered at some point.
@Bridgelover
I can speak from experience that courage, decisiveness, and purposeful living pays off in the long run, even though it may seem super difficult to do now. You will slowly but surely begin to feel better. Do not let the occasional setback derail you. It’s fine if you take two steps forward followed by one step backward. Also celebrate your little milestones, they give you confidence. Wishing you the best.
He’s a good person but he’s not any better than I am, or anyone else I know. But when he ignores me my stomach hurts, and when he smiles at me it’s like getting a shot of morphine. I can’t 100% avoid him, but it’s interesting making detached observations.
I have to unload something unrelated again, sorry.
I try to keep my friendship with LO and kill the limerence, but every time I do the „right“ thing , (which means in this case going little steps toward erasing all the slightly-more-than-friendship-stuff) it hurts inside as if I kill something living inside me.
Today for example I invited my SO to some event where my LO is without his SO. I didn’t have to do that, (SO doesn’t care too much to be there), but it was the right thing to do. But all I feel is disappointment not to have special time with LO, and this pain I described.
I don’t like that, it’s a dying feeling, doesn’t feel like something healthy and life-affirming, even if it should.
@Mila.
Can totally understand what you are going through. You made the right call by inviting SO to the event, though it may seem like you missed a chance to spend time with LO. In the long run, you may need to take steps to pull back from LO, trust me, that is the only thing that will work. It will feel super lousy now, but it will get better for sure, hang in there. And also, do not get derailed by the occasional setback, focus on the overall goal. There is a need to take it one day at a time. Hope this helps.
Thanks ABCD!
The thing is that he is my good friend for years, even the best male friend I have, and the limerence came when it was clear that he will leave my workplace. In fact he left already now and opportunities to see him get rare. the difficulty is that I really want to keep him as my good friend, not go NC. It would be a loss that wouldn’t do me any good. I just want to kill the limerence, not the friendship, and only take as many steps back as are needed for that.
But it feels bad..
I feel with you on meeting LO. Do you want to go NC long term or is it like with my case? I only ask because you could just not meet him. But if you know you have to meet him, maybe just stop dithering and prepare on meeting mentally, you could have a plan how you want to „see“ this meeting- stop worrying what to wear, how he will see you, but for example decide to look at him really neutrally and see all his human flaws and maybe bad sides and if this person you built up in your mind is really worth all that trouble and anxiety?
Or some other helpful mindset that you could adopt.
O my god, now I mixed you up with
IMHO. Sorry!!!
I take it back and just say thank you 🙏🏻 and only the first paragraph is for you, I’m so stupid…
@ Mila.
No problem! Thanks for your message. In an ideal scenario, it would be great for you to be on friendly terms with LO, without any of the LE intensity. I guess there are other posts on LwL where the posted question is – “can one really be friends with LO”. There are examples of LwL members whose LO interactions are no longer of the high intensity that they were, I wish the same for you.
@ABCD, thank you for your support.
I know that this is what I should wish for too. It just feels bad.
I have the feeling that he realizes what I‘m doing- pulling back- but not why, and that he‘s a bit hurt. That hurts me…but of course I cannot explain it because that would mean to disclose and a step in the wrong direction.
Hi, Mila
What a hard situation you find yourself in! I know you want to keep lo as a friend. And that would be nice if you can control your feelings when around him… it will depend on how strong your feelings are for him.
You say you have the feeling he realizes what you’re doing- pulling back but doesn’t know why.
Question: what if he asks you why, what would you answer? Be prepared.
Wishing the best results and peace in your mind.
Mila,
Eating chocolates counts for reward for ‘good behavior ‘. Just don’t overdue it , we don’t want to gain some weight. ha.
Have a wonderful and peaceful weekend.💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
@Nisor, actually, jokes aside, somehow my addictions are related. When I get stressed about LE (or anything else really), I resort to sugar. Luckily I don’t but on much weight through that, but it’s still very unhealthy.
I feel that it I’m prone to addiction, be it persons or sweets. Even sense that I could drink too much, but since I know that, I keep my drinking to a minimum.
„Question: what if he asks you why, what would you answer?“
Hm. Actually I kind of tried a conversation of that sort (by text), about if he thinks we are on dangerous grounds here, but he answered very vague, beginning with „what am I supposed to say to that?” . I felt he didn’t want to talk about it and just leave it all as it is.
The thing is, if he would ask directly, I would probably answer truly. But he won’t ask. He either doesn’t want to think about it too much because things are perfect for him right now, or, I don’t know.
If someone feels the urge to talk business, it’s definitely me, not him…
Mila,
“What am I supposed to say to that?” . That’s really a vague answer from
lo. He doesn’t want to risk letting you know how he feels. It stinks. I hate answers like that, it’s like they don’t want to see the truth, they
don’t want to confront their feelings for you. nor have a conversation about it. It leaves one hanging in the air. And one asks oneself: do they really care? That’s uncertainty, it fuels the limerence to a new high. I guess one has to learn how to live with uncertainty, go NC and withdraw with dignity and self respect. I’m sorry you have to go through that, ouch!
Stay firm with your decision and hope everything turns out the way you want is best for both of you. ❤️
Hi Mila, no problem. maybe ABCD and I are the same person with split personalities… ha ha !!!
We aren’t, but we both chose acronyms for our namesakes here. I actually wish I chose to use a name in hindsight as it’s more friendly /personable.
Anyway, thank you so much for your reply. I desperately want to remain friends with my LO, like you. I would forgo any other thrills /excitements to ensure he remains in my life. I may be deluded. It probably will fizz out anyway. It typically does when you are not living nearby or have a true reason to stay connected. I also do wonder can you really be true friends with someone of the opposite sex if you both have SOs ( who they do not know about our ‘friendship’). I know it and feel it. That is why I’m so ostrich-like in my pending meeting as it’s on his home ground. He may even invite me to meet him and his SO!! That maybe my ultimate wake up call. OMG!! Not sure how you are able to cope with your LO and SO at the same event, I would be in meltdown !
Maybe your LO intuitively knows you are directionally doing the right thing for the greater good ? You are strong and probably less guilt/regrets than me right now – so please be proud of yourself !
Hi IHMO
OMG you problem is even bigger than Milas with SOs! Both are difficult ones. How do you intend to handle yours? Have you any ideas yet? Go to the mirror and do some practicing of various possibilities. Think of things you want to talk about as referral points. Have a script even if you later forget it… try to have control over the conversation with lo. Think, think , you just be yourself! Calm
and collected, all smiles. It is said that smiles disarm the other person.It’s just another human being like you, not a Martian.
Best wishes to you.
@IMHO, Nisor
„Not sure how you are able to cope with your LO and SO at the same event, I would be in meltdown !“
Well, I didn’t enjoy the evening one bit although I should have because we are all friends and it was a nice occasion.
I know LO and his SO for years, we are all friends more or less.
Which makes everything more complicated and harder.
His SO wasn’t there but mine, and somehow that was harder for me than when his SO is there, because I feel conflicting feelings/desires/obligations.
I haven’t seen LO for weeks and thought maybe it’s a good thing to see him with my SO, maybe the glimmer is gone (he glimmered a bit at the beginning of our friendship, but back then I was in another LE🙄, but we were friends without LE for years!), but when I saw him I immediately knew that the glimmer is still there, much worse, that the newfound physical attraction ist still going strong.
So I was unhappy the whole time and am still unhappy.
I don’t know how he felt. I feel that he has some kind of limerence or sth related for me, but he doesn’t seem to have the strong desires that I have and doesn’t seem to mind the SO-Problem, doesn’t seem to feel that there could be something wrong or hurtful for them. Probably because he would never cross some lines?
We wrote yesterday when we were home and now all traces of special are gone- cannot explain it without details, sorry. Seems that he is either determined now to keep it „normal“ or that he thinks I want it that way because I brought SO.
He even wrote now again.
My feeling yesterday was that I cannot handle this. I have to get out of that yearning feeling.
It would be easier to go nothing or everything, but this manoeuvering and trying to be friends and intimate but not too much, yesterday it just overwhelmed me.
But I have to be able to do it, I just have to!
IMHO, will answer to you separately because the post is already so long…
Yesterday I was determined to put a stop to it, to concentrate on living purposefully etc, but now I feel weak again. Forgot to bring him something I was meant to bring yesterday, so have to stop by his place today sometime. Oh my.
@IMHO,
I think to have a lasting real friendship, you cannot write SOs out of the picture, they have to be included. But if there‘s the hidden agenda of limerence, then it will feel fake, of course.
So either one jumps over his own shadow (do you say that in English??)and manages to squash the limerent expectations and be generally friends with him and SO, so you can have him in your life, or the friendship will be either a torture for you or at least very difficult to let it last.
I actually recommend meeting him and his SO. Maybe you will even see a new side to him that you don’t like when you meet his SO .
But anyway I think either kill this limerence once and for all, don’t meet him now, go NC, let it all fizzle out – or go and meet him and maybe SO, so that you have some reality input instead of only dreams and ruminations.
Hi LwL (esp. Nisor, Mila, ABCD, Adam, Cordelia)
It’s been a while ……my meeting with long-distance LO happened ! I wanted to give an update after all the support you gave in the stressful lead-up.
It was at the end of the night of a massive event (I cannot disclose exactly) . I drifted from my work colleagues to get closer to the main stage and standing right next to me was LO, his SO and their friends. He spots me first. Freaky – as tens of thousands people at the event. what were the odds of that happening?!
Of course, I take this as some magical magnetic force between me & LO!
We were messaging each other earlier but hadn’t arranged a formal meet-up. And he obviously had not mentioned to his SO that he may meet work colleagues. We all spent some time together and was fun. I was shy around his SO, I felt very self-conscious. Never had this situation before. I’m noticing what is better and worse about her versus me – not proud of that. do others on LwL do that too ?
LO messages me late to check I got to hotel ok & heart emoji !
Couple days later we meet at work, no coffee/lunch invite from him despite me prompting for it. I realise it had to be some spontaneous meetings from his perspective. But friends arrange to meet, don’t they? especially when you are visiting their country?
Anyway, I didn’t over-prepare my appearance & actually looked very tired. We had a lovely long coffee conversation, both a little on edge. strong eye contact. Those damned eyes! he looks better than ever. We have a goodbye hug, warm & lingering.
I watch him walk away across the highway, he turns around and waves goodbye. I smile and wave back. He fades out of sight. Tears sting my eyes.
I may not see him for months, years, maybe never again.
On my flight home I find myself crying uncontrollably.
“do others on LwL do that too ?”
IMHO
When I met Morgan (I am finding it therapeutic to the limerence for me to call her by name and not LO) she was divorced. About a year or a bit more into meeting her she started dating someone. When I found out, from another co-worker, my first thought of him was he’d better not hurt her heart after what that pos ex of hers did. I genuinely wanted her to be happy and hoped she had found a good man.
When I saw him in person for the first time the only thing I really thought about him compared to me was he was a lot younger. Younger even than her. Made me feel old and soon to be unnoticed.
However, as far as I know they are still together. A co-worker talked to her some months after her last day on the job and they are still happy together. And that’s the important thing to me. It’s what helps me maintain NC.
“I may not see him for months, years, maybe never again.”
Not to slip myself into rumination, but it was hard the day she left knowing that I might never talk to her or see her again. So I know what you feel now. And I am not going to try and sit here and lie to you with some cliche sayings, since it has been over a year since that day and I still struggle. But it will subside to a degree. As in 99% of the time if a thought of her comes in my head it’s my own doing, so to speak. I avoid my triggers as best I can. But there are no longer intrusive thoughts, and when those stop, and they will, it does get easier.
I am hoping for the best for however you and your LO go into the future. I know the feeling of grasping onto a possible friendship with an LO because it was what I was fooling myself could happen with Morgan. Until I realized, coming out of the worst of the limerence, is I could not hold up my end of the relationship in a healthy way. Limerence destroyed any possible friendship, unlike many other past female co-workers that I still at least have online friendship with via Facebook, I could have had with her.
Just popping in to say I’m struggling today. LO works on Fridays and it was only her and another employee in office today. Knew once the day started it would be rough. Had to have some in depth collaboration time with her and naturally conversation trails off into some banter where I can easily make her smile and laugh which feeds the LE. But it’s all futile and meaningless yet my emotions just desire more of her.
I hate this! Feels like a setback last couple days.
Speedwagon,
You’re hard on yourself. Just enjoy the few times you get to be with lo. ( precious moments). No use of beating yourself up . You have no other choice , relax.
Your situation with lo is not easy but don’t get an ulcer on account of the LE.
“When you release expectations, you are free to enjoy things for what they are instead of what you think they should be.” (Mandy Hale)
I wish I knew this before…
Courage and best wishes. Relax.
Nisor, I appreciate this comment. It actually affected me. I think you are right, at times I expend too much emotional energy fighting against my LE that it becomes just as counterproductive as fulling giving into it. Balance is always a virtue. I’ve decided that it’s better to remain diligent in the LE but also let me be me with LO and be OK with it. If warm banter happens, it happens and it’s not the end of the world. I think if I let go of the fight against it, I may also let go of the struggle and guilt after it.
That said, there are still interaction boundaries I need to keep in place but those are bigger and more concrete boundaries that keep me from pursuing LO.
Always evolving!
@Speedwagon, I read some comments from you in the transference- Blogpost, may I ask if your current LO is the one it was back then, when you said you used transference to another colleague, or is it the one you kind of transferred your limerence to just to escape the other one (sorry, cannot express myself very well)?
You don’t have to answer, of course. I‘m just curious because I transferred from one LE to another already 2 times (not on purpose) and wonder if it worked in your case or if you just went into another LE that’s (as it sounds) also quite vexing now.
My apologies if that‘s too intruding a question.
Speed wagon,
“Balance is always a virtue.” Right on!
After all, when this LE fades away , if ever, the only thing that remains are those special moments spent with the Lo; Something to remember fondly. ( you cannot fool yourself …) Just keep the other barriers in place, like taking her alone on a business trip, etc. But in the office, what the heck, why get an ulcer or nervous breakdown by trying so hard to keep away from her? No matter what, you can’t, Business is business, and you have to put up with it, unless you or her quit. You know she is perhaps indifferent to you,
giving no expectations or hope, so ‘maybe’ interacting with her in a measured way will help the Le fade away faster??? I hope so for your sake. I wish this Limerence thing didn’t happen, but what else can you do? Relax and be yourself.
Have a great week.
@Mila
No, my LO has been the same LO for last 18 months. Before her LO#2 was 20 years prior. My current LO is very crystalized as an LO. The other woman I refer to in the Transference blog is another employee of mine, who is actually LOs best friend. This woman and I have become fairly good friends in the office and a little bit outside through texting. She is very relationally reciprocal which I appreciate. At one time I wondered if transference would happen but I just don’t have a very strong romantic desire for her, which is what makes her and great friend. I don’t get the sense either that she has any romantic feelings for me. But as for friendship she is actually a much better friend to me than LO. LO is tough relationally. She is fairly introverted, somewhat self absorbed (she mostly only talks about herself, asks very little questions of others), and not relationally reciprocal much at all. Not just with me but other people too. Before she became LO I did not have much of a relationship with her other than boss/employee.
If you want to know more of my story with LO it unfolds in real time in the Rescue Fantasy blog then the New Year’s Purpose blog. Long story short…LO becomes LO, I mildly pursue relationship with her for 9 months, things seem to heat up around Christmas time where I think feelings are mutual, a few weeks later I disclose, LO claims only friendship, I back off, try to undo the damage of disclosing, and now I have very little relationship with LO other than work interaction. But she still remains LO unfortunately.
@Speedwagon, thanks so much. I’ll read it up some time, but for now I try to heed Limerent Emeritus (as he has the same acronym as Limerent Episode I have to spell him out as not to be confused:)), and not to spend too much time here.
But I appreciate the short version for now, thanks!
I had a very serious and exhausting LE 8?years ago, then another one which was quite strong and nerve wracking too but the LO was somehow a „better“ LO and now another one with my friend. The LOs got „better“, more sensible and warm people that didn’t give in to my craziness, but I transferred without a real break (when one fizzled out, the next came along as a kind of saviour?) and I‘m worried about that, as it means I seem to need LEs in my life and am unconsciously looking for the next when one is finished.
Doesn’t seem the case with you.
You seem to be kind of faithful in your LE.
What a hard thing to have disclosed and then still to work with her, I do have a lot of respect for you.
Does this best friend of hers know about the situation or about the disclosure?
I think Nisors advice is quite good in the sense that the less energy and bad feelings you have to exert in this LE, the better. If keeping away from her and refusing to interact is costing you, then maybe just interact. In my former LEs and now I experienced often that if it was better for my state of mind if I had friendly contact with LO than trying to keep him out of my life. The latter had something over-dramatic about it which fueled the limerence.
Being in loose casual but warm contact somehow made me feel good (of course because I craved it because of the limerence, I know) and made me ruminate and suffer less. Maybe for not quite the right reasons, but whatever brings you through the night.
@Speedwagon again, I just remembered that I recently wrote to you to hang in and keep away from the banter etc, I take that back. I didn’t know you disclosed to her, I think that changes everything, given that this banter of hers is „innocent“.
You have to decide what is best for you. As I said if you have to see her every day anyway it‘s maybe better not to force yourself into a grim „stand away from me“- attitude but relax into a friendly atmosphere without seeking it actively.
Speedwagon,
you were doing so good. It’s a rollercoaster, isn’t it.
I really respect your willpower.
It helps to realistically imagine what would happen when you indulge. Banter, etc etc, kind of friendship, and then? If something happens you deep down might desire, it won’t be the happy ending, there will be consequences, you work together etc etc, complications and unhappiness won’t be far. If it doesn’t happen, you will suffer anyway.
You know all this anyway, like me.
Hang in there!
I wish us strength..
@Cordelia
Just want to say hi! Have been wondering how you’re doing and glad to hear you’re taking firm, positive action.
I’m happy to have raised self-awareness and positive moods through consistent mediation and workout, and can pay more attention to and appreciate other areas of life.
Hey there favorite Cheerleader,
I’ve missed you. I was hoping you weren’t going completely awol on us.
Glad you are taking action. I know those night terrors can be quite frightful, if you remember we talked about before, because I had them for the longest time also.
You probably read I took some action recently, by attempting to get into therapy. Twice now and was rejected a 2nd time last week. Citing that my issues are too complex and that I really need to find a Therapist that specializes on more comprehensive issues.
I just come away dumbfounded that I’m actually that complex but I don’t know. I’m frustrated as hell about it. I go to these people with a need because the ad on their website states that they have 50+ clinicians in their network, that give responsive and compassionate support, for a whole myriad of issues. And then they tell me my depression is too complex? Sorry, you said that funny word limerence, we can’t help you. Thank you..
This is not responsive and compassionate support..
So now I’m back on the hunt again but to be honest, feel like I’m running on fumes. If this keeps up, I might just have to look up your Mark Groves fella, or whatever those other jungian type systems you were seeking out.
For now, think I’ll look up something over in the Big City and make a trip out of it if I have too. I work out that way, so may as well keep going a little farther north if there is something there they can offer me. We’ll see..
Maybe it’s the word ‘limerence’ that is putting them off, MJ? I wonder if they would still be able to help you, if it was phrased a different way eg. person or love addiction or something?
I explained that it’s an intense obsession. That I can’t get her off my mind.
I don’t even think that’s the heart of the issue. I think I just want to not be so sad about it all the time, so I want to focus on the depressive nature of it.
Then again maybe tears are good. I went out to the lake yesterday and cried a river over her again. I wrote some good poetry and I felt good about doing it. All over LO of course, but I felt better afterwards.
Thanks SP, C4C and MJ for your replies 🥰
@SP great to hear you’re making positive changes too!
@MJ I haven’t checked in often so wasn’t aware of your full story with the psychologist. I am astonished they’re allowed to turn away someone in need. I’d expect at the very least they should refer you to someone they think might be able to help 🤷♀️
When I told my therapist about limerence she went away and learnt about it so she could support me.
Maybe they feel it’s more a psychiatry issue? I tend to disagree with that. I did see a discussion between you and Adam and maybe some others about how there were no issues in your childhood. I once thought that about might childhood as well. When I finally realised that parents will always damage you, despite their love and best intentions, it became much easier to process. I see it every day with my own child who I love to the moon and back. But on the days I’m exhausted, I snap. Not her fault. When something awful has happened that I can’t tell her about, she feels it but doesn’t know why. There are endless everyday scenarios that will negatively affect a little person’s mind and sense of secure attachment. I feel I will be able to rectify this to an extent when she’s not so young and dependent on me for everything, but for now, I see the hurt on her little face when I can’t be the human God she needs at this point in her life. When we acknowledge the shortcomings of our parents and forgive them, we allow compassion for ourselves and our own shortcomings. I still haven’t completely forgiven my parents (mostly because I can’t talk to them about it and nor have they asked for my forgiveness). I would say I *understand*. But forgiveness for everything is quite the feat. I ask my child for forgiveness regularly.
Many of the men (or really, I should say boys) who have declared their love for me are much, much younger than me. I know this is misplaced affection for a mother figure. Do you feel there could be a desire to fix the relationship with your daughter through LO?
If you do come to the conclusion that you really would like to use the resources I used, I will post them again. Leave me a message in the latest coffee house post and I’ll read through them every now and then 😊 But if you don’t reach the point where you *know* you’re out of other options and this is pretty much the only action that will help, it’ll just sit there unused. But I’ve planted a seed. That’s enough for now 😌
@C4C
I like the sound of your post. I remember some of those moments. Empowering moments when I realised LO’s opinion (nor the opinion of others) could define me. I climbed a mountain by myself. I was the last person to reach the summit that day. I knew I was the highest person for 1000 kilometers or
more. I scrambled back down on my own in the dark. Probably not the most sensible thing I ever did but very empowering. The entire trip was a solo hiking/camping trip that pushed me to my limits. Another one was the Vipassana 10-day silent meditation. Hard work but very worth it. All action of some sort. I think proving to myself I can do things that are hard, that scare the pants off me and that challenge my thinking is the best way for me to not give a hoot what other people think of me. I’m proud of me. Sounds like seeking out therapy will be that big step for you! ❤️
I’m second to Call me Cordelia in suggesting that Vipassana 10-day silent retreat is good for everyone, although it sounds scary. I’ve been to the course 3.5 times, one would know the benefits only after 10 days of complete silence and sitting meditation. It’s donation based, and they won’t take a penny of yours if somehow you could not finish the entire 10 days. It has location all around the world. https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/index
@CmC: my current daily mediation is Vipassana incorporated. Your sole mountain climbing sounds so great, I did several times with a group.
“Uh … maybe if you’re in a sorority and you all get the same highlights to your hair. 🙂
I just don’t find talking about hair, makeup, nails and clothes all that interesting. I mean, a little bit is fine, but it’s like talking about what one is making for dinner. It’s best as a short topic. 🙂”
@Marcia.
Well, I did list this under “humorous suggestion” for a reason! 😁
But, yes, I get it. Deeper and more complex personalities don’t want to major in the trifles. 🤣
But, seriously, as far as my own life is concerned, I used to make a big effort with my appearance, only to ask myself afterwards: “Who am I dressing up for? I haven’t seen LO in years! I’m dressing up for a … ghost?” 🙄
Sammy,
“But, seriously, as far as my own life is concerned, I used to make a big effort with my appearance, only to ask myself afterwards: “Who am I dressing up for? I haven’t seen LO in years! I’m dressing up for a … ghost?””
I used to spend a lot more time on my appearance, too. But, like you, I haven’t seen my LO in years …. and Richard Gere is not going to show up to carry me out of my work place. No point in getting all gussied up! 🙂 I’d rather sleep in a bit.
“I used to spend a lot more time on my appearance, too. But, like you, I haven’t seen my LO in years …. and Richard Gere is not going to show up to carry me out of my work place. No point in getting all gussied up! 🙂 I’d rather sleep in a bit.”
@Marcia.
Oh, thank goodness you’re not really mad at me! For some reason, my anxiety flared up. I was worried I said something terribly, terribly wrong and that crowds of angry villagers would come after me with pitchforks. (Must be another strange fantasy from my childhood – out-of-control anxiety, being chased, a desire to be punished for real or imagined sin. Maybe a desire ultimately to be in control? A desire to control the world around me even if it means shamelessly manipulating the narrative?).
I’ve decided there are two things I like about LwL:
(1) Most of the exchanges are written, and for some reason written communication is more satisfying to me than talking to people face-to-face.
(2) I’ve learned that I don’t hate women as much as I feared I did, and women don’t actually hate me. So I think LwL is a useful corrective for any chauvinism/misogyny I might have lurking in my system. I mean, I think I have some quaint ideas about the behaviour of women in general, and the women at LwL usually put me right about what I’m getting wrong. 😆
I can’t get over the fact that people in real life are often way more chilled out than the people in my head are! 😉
I as a female second Marcia here:)- don’t know why men seem to think that all women are these frilly creatures that love to talk about nail polish and high heels. I blame American movies;)
Also I‘m not quite on board with jokes at my expense. Maybe that’s also a male thing? If somebody tries to bond with me in a warm platonic way, he certainly won’t get there by making hurtful remarks evening they are „funny“? A little bit of affectionate riling is ok though.
“Also I‘m not quite on board with jokes at my expense. Maybe that’s also a male thing? If somebody tries to bond with me in a warm platonic way, he certainly won’t get there by making hurtful remarks evening they are „funny“? A little bit of affectionate riling is ok though.”
@Mila.
Thank you for sharing.
You’re right. The joke at another’s expense is predominantly a male thing. In Australia, for example, where I’m from, good-natured put-downs seems to be how men bond with other men. It’s almost a way of saying: “Hey, we accept you as part of the group – but only if you’re thick-skinned enough to accept the putdown and roll with it.” 😉
The jokes aren’t excessively mean. I mean, they’re not usually about someone’s weight or appearance or something like that. I’ve been teased about the fact that I always eat everything on my plate when I dine out in a cafe. I think the manager said to me one day: “Good grief! It’s a good thing these plates don’t have patterns on them, or you’d eat them (the patterns) too.” 🤣
In Australia, the good-natured putdown between men is almost a social “test of character” i.e. is this fellow one of us or not? If a man reacted badly to the putdown, he probably wouldn’t be accepted into the group. He would be ostracised. I know many mothers might have a hard time understanding what’s going on if their sons were subjected to said treatment, and subsequently complained about it. The mother might assume her son was being bullied. But fathers would probably understand the dynamics at play, and tell sons not to worry. The young man is merely being “welcomed into the group as an equal”. 😉
It’s not how women bond with women in my country or how people bond across the gender divide, (not usually anyway!!), so I understand where you’re coming from when you say you wouldn’t enjoy it. 🤔
The subject of communication differences between the sexes is fascinating, so we might dwell on it a little here. I have heard it said that when males say unkind things to other males, they are invariably being insincere e.g. playful sarcasm designed to enhance male bonding. Being teased by another male is a POSITIVE thing, in other words. If you’re a male, you probably WANT to be teased by other males. Being frequently teased denotes a certain social status. You’re not exactly sitting at the bottom of the social hierarchy. 😉
I have heard it said, on the other hand, that when women say nice things to other women, women are apparently being insincere. I can’t confirm whether the latter is true or not. However, I hope that it is not true, because it perpetuates the stereotype that women as a group are catty and aren’t really capable of being happy for another woman, particularly if that other woman is doing well in her life. 🤔
As an autistic male, I had to learn to “roll with the punches” somewhat in response to teasing from other males. I had to change my mindset and accept that such teasing is almost always affectionate and not malicious. Now I just laugh at any jokes directed my way. Jokes don’t bother me. I have learnt not to take offence at something that isn’t meant to give offence. But it’s been a long journey, you know? I didn’t develop a thick skin overnight…
It’s weird. It’s a bit like men are afraid of being nice to each other in a straightforward way. Maybe the “indirect kindness” reflects a fear of coming across as feminine or too sentimental? I dunno. But the fact men use sarcasm frequently to bond with other (well-liked) men is fascinating from an anthropological point of view. 🤔
@Sammy for some reason I replied to you in the wrong place. Hope you find it🙄
Sammy,
“In Australia, the good-natured putdown between men is almost a social “test of character” i.e. is this fellow one of us or not?”
Idk. I watched the guys at one job I had … some of them were cruel to each other. Found each others’ weakness and zeroed in. Not all were like that, but some.
I can see why men like the “softness” and “non-competitiveness” they experience with women. The emotional nurturing, as one guy I dated put it. Because they don’t get that with their male friends.
“I watched the guys at one job I had … some of them were cruel to each other. Found each others’ weakness and zeroed in. Not all were like that, but some. I can see why men like the “softness” and “non-competitiveness” they experience with women. The emotional nurturing, as one guy I dated put it. Because they don’t get that with their male friends.”
@Marcia.
Ah, that is an extremely interesting insight! 😛
I don’t think I’d last very long in an environment where the roughness was real. 🙄
@sammy
“In Australia, the good-natured putdown between men is almost a social “test of character” i.e. is this fellow one of us or not?”
It’s totally true in my COO. If a man can’t take a humorous “putdown”, he would be and remains a social outcast for sure! The more a man could bare smiling mocking, the stronger and longer the fraternal bonding become. I was always envious to watch them, because most women are just too thin-skinned to take the most benign “putdown.”
Since young, I’ve always wanted to befriend boys and men in “male bonding” ways, freely discussing and debating every subject under the Sun. But just about NONE of males (except gay men) reciprocated me in my preferred and dreamed ways, either as a LO or a limerent or simply a girl/woman. I did not understand why (maybe I have less than 50% anima in me)
Dad bonded with me like I were a true tomboy, who was mentally challenged, teased and putdown mostly with a good nature. He insisted in speaking the last word until after I emigrated. Then my unconscious took a “revenge” at him — I automatically spoke the last word even over phone. His ego-pride was “wounded”. When asked once why, I said I had a marvelous teacher — “You!” He just laughed heartedly.
I guess that how I’ve got a lot of “animus” from both Dad and masculine Mom who does not know “how to sew a dress but a human body” — her own words. She never put on any makeup in her entire life, except on my wedding day — a bit of rouge on the lips.
“Since young, I’ve always wanted to befriend boys and men in “male bonding” ways, freely discussing and debating every subject under the Sun. But just about NONE of males (except gay men) reciprocated me in my preferred and dreamed ways, either as a LO or a limerent or simply a girl/woman. I did not understand why (maybe I have less than 50% anima in me)”
@Snowphoenix.
My whole life I think I’ve romanticised “male bonding”. But I’m not necessarily sure whether the real version is all that playful or good-natured. I guess a lot depends on the dispositions of the individual men. Sometimes, it seems like the male friends in film have better relationships than the male friends in real life. But I guess that’s true of women too. 🤔
@Sammy
I guess it’s a “tragedy” of me that I could not bond well either with boys/men or girls/women from birth through youth since there was no one really modeled me how; Mom and Dad already switched their anima/animus roles at home.
I always had a couple of loyal girlfriends; my limited fearless rebellious deeds “scared” most of them away, and often I thought majority of them too girlish and coward. I liked to “wrestle” with boys in discussion or debate, but they avoided my kind of approach. So I indulged myself in books, where substantial friendship between men and women seemed to be possible. Much later, a middle school classmate told me that I was too different, or too “mature”, so my male peers distanced themselves from me — I was “unapproachable”.
Later, I primarily observed or imagined bondings of classmates through their behaviors on surface or in books or movies. I still can’t tell whether there is more anima or animus in me — I suspect the latter. For the record, I only instinctually glimmered at men with a big dose of femininity, never at any women even if I so wished them to “mother” adult me.
I’m very jealous of anyone who has close sibling ties!
It’s surely an interesting subject. I know and recognize what you describe as male bonding although it‘s not that distinct in my environment.
I even have received some of that kind of riling and immediately knew it‘s important to react good-humoured, because otherwise it would show that you are insecure and „cannot take a joke“. It‘s still not my favorite way of bonding;)
Also in my experience, women really tend to compliment other women much more than men, but they are not being necessarily insincere.
Maybe they tell them what they themselves would like to hear because women tend to be more insecure what concerns their looks and general confidence. So they give what they would like to receive.
And even if the compliment is over the top or not quite true, they give it because they know it will make the other person feel more secure and happy, and they want to give them that, because then this person will immediately feel better and through that be more beautiful/confident anyway, so it isn’t insincere, it‘s kind of well-meant.
Or something like that. Not quite sure.
@Mila.
Thank you for your response. Yes, I found it just fine… 😉
“And even if the compliment is over the top or not quite true, they give it because they know it will make the other person feel more secure and happy, and they want to give them that, because then this person will immediately feel better and through that be more beautiful/confident anyway, so it isn’t insincere, it‘s kind of well-meant. Or something like that. Not quite sure.”
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I think women sometimes talk more to communicate feelings, and this seemingly constant feeling-orientated talk can drive men barmy. (Maybe men suspect women of being insincere?) 😉
In other words, I think men don’t always understand how or why women prioritise feelings in communication. Of course, not all women prioritise feelings in communication. And, of course, some men do prioritise feelings in communication. But I think, broadly-speaking, on average, women do concern themselves more with feelings, their own feelings and other people’s feelings, and try to make a point of not upsetting people’s feelings. And none of that is bad.
On the topic of compliments, it’s great to hear women do pay other women sincere compliments, and that these compliments are motivated by empathy. However, because women prioritise feelings, a woman might be slightly more likely than a man to pay someone an insincere compliment because the woman knows that that compliment might lift the spirits of the recipient. So the insincerity can come from a place of empathy and not a place of malice. Maybe women as a group are kinder when it comes to communication? I dunno…
I didn’t mean to patronise you and Marcia by suggesting that women should just busy themselves with the details of their toilette, and all will be well with the world! As if women really have nothing better to do! I do apologise if I ruffled feathers. My intention was actually to tell a joke at my own expense i.e. “Stop being so vain, Sammy. No one is actually looking at you.” Nor I was suggesting that conventional men should, conversely, just busy themselves with conventionally masculine activities as an instant solution to heartache. 😉
No, all jokes aside, what I really meant was limerents sort of need to find their mini-tribe, whoever their mini-tribe may be, and maybe join in some of the activities favoured by that mini-tribe? (One’s mini-tribe could be forty-something-year-olds who still love playing video games, for example).
I think that limerence can make one withdraw a little bit from social life maybe, especially if and when one is feeling particularly sad. It does seem to me that much human social life is organised around gender roles. I’m not saying people should lie about their tastes, or do anything they’re strongly opposed to. I’m saying sometimes introverts need to partake in the things that extrovert peers enjoy, without judging extrovert peers too harshly for enjoying those things. Extroverts might be more likely to conform to gender norms than introverts.
A day of fun-filled activities enjoyed by the average extrovert might help shake the average lovesick introvert out of a particularly low mood. Who knows? At the very least, an extrovert peer might feel cherished, or welcome the company. 🤔
I know that as an introvert suffering from limerence, I definitely withdrew from extrovert friends and from the kind of activities that my extroverted social circle wanted to do. And I think, in hindsight, that was a big mistake…
Really, all I’m saying is, despite being consumed with sadness, the limerent should strive not to cut themselves off entirely from society. The people and the diversions that one might find in the world may ultimately be one’s salvation. But I also know how hard it is to socialise when one is constantly tired, feels unlovable, feels on edge, feels like one’s head is exploding, is suffering from insomnia or poor appetite or chronic indigestion. I remember all those feelings of discomfort so well. I felt like I was living in a stranger’s body for a long time.
Yes, the tricky thing about limerence is that it does seem to affect every cell in one’s body and one can almost take perverse satisfaction in finding excuses NOT to socialise. I think what I felt as a limerent was that I wanted to be part of the world, but I wanted to be part of the world on my own terms. I didn’t want to be part of the world on the world’s terms. The world’s terms didn’t seem fair.
It was like every cell in my body was revolting against the idea of being a normal person, or … shock horror … having innocent, garden-variety fun. How can I say this? I became very selfish about sharing my soul. (Wouldn’t want any of the rare treasures of my soul accidentally going to the wrong people now, would I?) 🙄
Sammy,
…suggesting that women should just busy themselves with the details of their toilette…
You’re very keen in humanity. As human beings we’re such a special and diverse. creation , that it is impossible to pin down or describe how anyone is. Each one of us is a unique piece of art as our irises and digital prints are not comparable to another’s fingerprints or eye 👁️ irises. Humans are like a garden in which each kind of plant is beautiful but different in shape or color , texture, aroma or type etc. You can find cactus 🌵, roses with thorns, begonia, petunias, peonies, violets, etc. in the same garden of life. But they’re all beautiful in their own style and kind.
It is said that men’s love enters through the eyes, the beauty of the face, shape, curves, movement etc. The women’s love, instead, enters through the ears, they want to be heard attentively, understood , be desired, be loved, etc. Some even go as far as to say: ‘I’d rather be understood than loved.’
I’m greedy, I want them both, desired and loved!!!
As an introvert, I enjoy being alone rather than with a boring person. Books can be enough company to me. But i have the need to extrovert also. Nature is great for me, talking and mingling with other people also, but outside my place, and when I want to. Sometimes I’m forced to go, like to a wedding, baptism, birthday party, etc, and I enjoy it. But please, not too often! My castle 🏰 is my castle…
It is private, it’s where I withdraw to be private.
Now to the main subject of dressing etc. I declare as straight female that I love beautiful things, like home furnishings, decorations, bed sheets , , tablecloth , tableware , etc., but mainly, I love clothes, shoes, handbags, jewelry. I can open a boutique with all I have! I love to dress nice, (since small I had a weakness for those) , to be elegant, and people notice and always tell me. My nails done and my hair also. I’m a natural, don’t need too much time to transform myself , ha. I don’t wear false eyelashes or make up, jus t hydrating cream and lipstick, and I’m
done. Men, old and young do really notice a well dressed woman!!! I should know, I m the oldest of the group, ha. ( and I don’t mean ridiculous or provocative dressed, but plain and elegant).
Really, it doesn’t take much time to be beautifully dressed, it’s a matter of taste, a good eye for pretty things.
Beauty enters through the eyes… just look at nature, creation itself speaks of beauty, a rainbow, landscape, sunset, the sky stars moon, flowers, etc etc etc. As beauty is in poetry, music, painting, architecture, people appreciate and admire beauty. Beauty surrounds us and we perceive it and admire it.
Great day to everyone!!!
“…suggesting that women should just busy themselves with the details of their toilette…
You’re very keen in humanity. As human beings we’re such a special and diverse. creation, that it is impossible to pin down or describe how anyone is.”
@Nisor.
There are times when people shouldn’t take what I say literally. I try to be serious and give good advice, but this cheeky and satirical side of me comes out and I just don’t know where the cheeky and satirical side comes from… Then I feel ashamed for being cheeky because I was raised to be the opposite of cheeky. 🙄
The details of one’s toilette? What Anglo-Saxon person even talks like that? Maybe I was unconsciously paraphrasing “The Second Sex” by Simone de Beauvoir, which I read several years ago in a futile attempt to understand my mother? Or maybe I was channelling “Madame Bovary”, which admittedly was written by a man, and a Frenchman at that! The admirable Gustave Flaubert! 😁
Honestly, if men do rant about women’s grooming habits, it is at least partly motivated by envy – envy that women seem to have a greater variety of ways to beautify themselves, if so desired. It’s envy of the options the other sex is believed, rightly or wrongly, to possess. It’s not necessarily chauvinism. At my school formal, for example, the females could look like brilliant parrots while the males mostly looked like penguins (clad in penguin suits, of course!).
Actually, to dampen an LE, maybe both sexes should consider “dressing down” as that would make one less desirable in theory, and less likely to catch LO’s eye. But, like I say, nonsense advice, tongue-in-cheek advice. One can’t “dress down” if one has a dress code. I’ve actually bothered to shave since penning this advice, so please ignore me. My hypocrisy on the subject is … staggering. 😉
“It is said that men’s love enters through the eyes, the beauty of the face, shape, curves, movement etc. The women’s love, instead, enters through the ears, they want to be heard attentively, understood , be desired, be loved, etc. Some even go as far as to say: ‘I’d rather be understood than loved.’”
The ideas that you mention here sound rather poetic, as well as true. You seem to know a thing or two about Eros. I think I’ve reached the point in life where I’m ready to give up on Eros. I’m just so tried. I don’t know if I can motivate myself to care anymore. The old hormones have gone on vacation; the brain has retired. But I somewhat enjoy watching other people have their (mis)adventures.
I think I can pick limerents out in a crowd, especially younger ones. You can always tell a limerent. Or, at the very least, you can always tell a happy limerent. The glowing skin and the shining eyes are a real giveaway, as well as that restless energy. Maybe a spring in the step too? Male limerents and female limerents are both “radiant” to some extent, the females probably moreso than the males. 😉
I actually like being non-limerent to some extent because, without a brain immersed in scary-high levels of dopamine, making me excessively self-conscious, I can enjoy the endless parade of human beauty more. It’s kind of like I can enjoy the world more because I’m no longer placing myself at the centre of the world.
“I’m greedy, I want them both, desired and loved!!!”
I envy people who still want things in life. Especially people who are older than me. It must be nice to have that kind of energy and optimism still. Religious guilt always cruelled limerence for me. I could never enjoy the highs and I thought I deserved the lows. Love is nice. Desire is nice. The only trouble with desire is that desire unchecked can easily be confused with love. 😉
@sammy,
I laughed so heartedly after reading your reply to Nisor’s message, it’s so tastefully humorous and marvelous sarcastic with literary references! 👏😀
“I laughed so heartedly after reading your reply to Nisor’s message, it’s so tastefully humorous and marvelous sarcastic with literary references! 👏😀”
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you. But actually my remarks make me think how weird (and sad) my upbringing was in comparison to other people’s…
I mean, most young men don’t say to themselves one day: “Oh dear. I don’t really understand Mummy. She’s been getting on my nerves of late. I know what I’ll do – I’ll just study the bible of second-wave feminism. Surely all the answers are in to be found in Mlle de Beauvoir’s seminal work.” 🙄🤣
@Sammy
To me, what flying in your mind and what drilling your brain is NOT weird but expected for those who are seriously interested in and caring about self-realization, self-actualization, or individuation. Few people, men or women, do not, or do not talk about, these Socratic or Freudian, or Jungian questions.
Can you imagine how an attractive women, in her makeup and high heels, walks around with those questions pounding her head?
@Sammy, no, I get it.
In different groups of people are different ways of bonding, they are not rules, maybe some kind of „language“, saying „look, I’m like you, I know the language, we can feel safe together“ and for smooth going in this group or simply to be polite it‘s good to speak this „language“ even if it’s not the way one would usually express oneself. With my girl friends of younger age I actually give more compliment talk and clothes discussions because they like it, while with other friends I‘m a bit different.
What I haven’t experienced is the wish to socialize less when limerent. If anything, I socialize more. LO is usually in some group or other and I socialize there just to spend time with him. I don’t want to sit alone at home and think of him, I want to see him etc., to the extent that I spend less time with my family, which isn’t good.
I waste time on social gatherings just to be near LO instead spending precious time working on something (living purposefully!) or with my family.
But that’s what I mean with us being different and in different life situations!
“… no, I get it.
In different groups of people are different ways of bonding, they are not rules, maybe some kind of „language“, saying „look, I’m like you, I know the language, we can feel safe together“ and for smooth going in this group or simply to be polite it‘s good to speak this „language“ even if it’s not the way one would usually express oneself. With my girl friends of younger age I actually give more compliment talk and clothes discussions because they like it, while with other friends I‘m a bit different.”
@Mila.
Well, I think as an autistic person desperate to fit in, for a while I overestimated the importance of “rules” and underestimated the importance of “emotion” in human social interactions. So, if anyone was a bit out of touch, it was very likely me! 😉
I think, when I was younger, both my male peers and my female peers spoke the language of “emotion” – among themselves, and to each other – and I wasn’t quite picking up on this language, so I probably missed out on/misinterpreted a lot of what was going on.
“What I haven’t experienced is the wish to socialize less when limerent.”
I think some limerents might socialise less due to the LE “crowding out” all the free space in their heads. So maybe … concentration problems? Not really being fully present when hanging out with friends? 🤔
“But that’s what I mean with us being different and in different life situations!”
@Mila.
I’m not really sure what your particular situation is. I haven’t come across your story because of the sheer number of stories on the blog. It sounds like you might be dealing with mutual limerence?
Undoubtedly, people’s life circumstances vary greatly. And the causes of limerence may well be different too. But apparently limerence, as a biological phenomenon, does unfold in an eerily similar way for the people who report having it i.e. three stages (infatuation, crystallisation, deterioration), the feeling that life is in technicolour, physical symptoms around LO such as rapid heartbeat or trembling, mood swings involving ecstasy and despair.
I think there is a connection between the “life in technicolour” effect and mood swings. Basically, one can end mood swings, but ending mood swings comes with a price, and that price is life no longer lived in technicolour. So, it’s an interesting dilemma for people who perhaps enjoy living life in technicolour, and don’t want to lose that.
Sammy,
„I’m not really sure what your particular situation is. I haven’t come across your story because of the sheer number of stories on the blog. It sounds like you might be dealing with mutual limerence?“
The three LEs that I count were all more or less mutual. The first with disclosure from both sides, the second only with hints and a lot of uncertainty, (in hindsight it was mutual but he was much more aware that there’s nothing possible at all between us than me) and the current is my good friend for years. And all colleagues, I have to say. Which means that I met them a lot in daily life and also socialized with them, hence the socializing a lot when limerent:)
I gather that you mean by socializing to meet friends without LO.
I get it that one might not have much taste for that.
I think without at least a hint of mutuality I cannot be limerent. That might be different from other limerents.
@Mila.
“The three LEs that I count were all more or less mutual. The first with disclosure from both sides, the second only with hints and a lot of uncertainty, (in hindsight it was mutual but he was much more aware that there’s nothing possible at all between us than me) and the current is my good friend for years.”
Well, if limerence is something you sort of feel comfortable with as a concept, then having had disclosure or reliable hints must seem like a blessing to some degree… I mean, you really are living out one or more romantic fantasies and it’s not just all in your head. 😉
I don’t know if infatuations are less stressful when they’re very clearly mutual? I suppose it depends on circumstances… 🤔
“I think without at least a hint of mutuality I cannot be limerent. That might be different from other limerents.”
In theory, true limerence can’t really develop without both hope and uncertainty. So, I’m thinking the LO always has to do or say something at some point in the interaction to inspire hope in the limerent. Whether a given limerent can correctly identify “hope” from a whole slew of other emotions and possible explanations, who can say? I.e. some LOs might offer signs of hope without realising it. Some LOs might not know how enchanting they must seem… 😜
I’m not really sure what my “issue” is. Seems like I saw hope in interactions where no real grounds for hope existed i.e. the other person didn’t have romantic feelings or an interest in a serious relationship. I was raised by a narcissistic mother, so I wonder if I’ve always had elevated levels of dopamine and cortisol in my system?
As a child, long before I met any potential LOs, I experienced the world around me very vividly. Nature, etc, all seemed to be in technicolour. I don’t know if that was the effect of my mother’s personality on me or whether it was just some abnormality in my still-developing brain? I felt like the world and me were one. I felt as if the world was some giant womb that I was just swimming in. 🤔
In hindsight, I think I was reacting limerently to my narcissistic mother. (She was very unpredictable). Actually, I think I failed to separate mentally from my narcissistic mother, so her worldview turned out to be my worldview, her feelings my feelings, etc, etc.
I DO know I don’t really like the person I am when limerent. I think I act in a way that could be described as narcissistic (or just plain deluded, really). A poet that’s deluded is still a madman. 😁
While in limerence, I always feel like I’m chasing some goal that seems worthwhile, so limerence DOES feel like purposeful living to me. But now I think the goals I run towards aren’t really there. Or, if someone has shown genuine romantic interest in me at some point, I’ve misread the whole situation and let the chance go by. 🤔
“I gather that you mean by socializing to meet friends without LO.
I get it that one might not have much taste for that.”
Yes, I meant socialising without LO. But I understand the converse as well. I can understand how having an LO can greatly increase one’s desire to socialise, particularly if one gets to be around LO.
My LO attended my school formal, for instance. I spent the whole night sitting next to him. (We both had female dates, and the girls didn’t really seem to mind leaving us boys to ourselves for most of the evening. Maybe the girls knew, rightly, that we wouldn’t get up to any mischief. We were both … too boring, too genteel, too mild-mannered). And, at the end of the night, my LO gave me a hug, which actually came as a surprise. That was the only time I ever got a hug out of him. I felt like I was walking on air on the way home.
And my second-favourite male friend also attended my school formal, and he said I looked nice in my suit after I told him that he looked nice in his. That felt like a big triumph for me too. I don’t think I would have wanted to go to the school formal if these two young men weren’t present. Like a vampire, I was somehow sucking energy out of them, and using them to stabilise my moods. 🙄
A couple of months after high school ended, I started to fall apart. I kept in contact with my LO, and he gave me sufficiently “mixed signals” to unleash fully the rollercoaster ride of limerence. But every time I got a letter from him in the post … euphoria! 😜
Sammy,
„Well, if limerence is something you sort of feel comfortable with as a concept, then having had disclosure or reliable hints must seem like a blessing to some degree… I mean, you really are living out one or more romantic fantasies and it’s not just all in your head. 😉“
Not if you‘ve got a SO and a family that you love…
No, I don’t feel that comfortable with the concept of limerence, at least not with the debilitating, painful sides of it.
Today I‘ m especially fed up with it. Such a time waster. And:
„I DO know I don’t really like the person I am when limerent. I think I act in a way that could be described as narcissistic (or just plain deluded, really).“
I think I get so selfish when limerent. For example now I‘m limerent for my friend, which makes me a much worse friend than before. he doesn’t realize, of course, because it’s only in my mind yet.
But I want him to want me on a level that’s unhealthy for his marriage and family, I wait for his texts and get annoyed if he doesn’t respond in the way I would like etc etc, now I try to fight the limerence by concentrating on his annoying sides…
I should just leave him be like he is, wish and do what is best for him and his family and not getting angry/dependent on his behavior or texts.
In limerence I concentrate too much on my feelings, what I desire etc. It’s really quite selfish.
When I read my diaries from LEs before, I realize that for example my LO2 behaved admirably and fought a good fight against his own limerence. Never saw it that way, only was sad and annoyed when he pulled back.
I admire you all that you analyzed so much about your childhood, parents etc. Maybe you just had to and I was lucky in not having to.
I‘m sure that many of my complexes and behaviors stem from my childhood, but somehow I don’t feel the need to follow it back.
I‘m an adult now for a long time and want to be the one responsible for my behavior. That doesn’t mean at all! that you are not taking responsibility or are not right to analyze! to the contrary, it‘s a criticism of myself because I just don’t do it and don’t feel like it.
@Mila.
“Not if you‘ve got a SO and a family that you love…
No, I don’t feel that comfortable with the concept of limerence, at least not with the debilitating, painful sides of it.
Today I‘ m especially fed up with it. Such a time waster.”
Yes, I see what you mean… Having an SO and a family might make an LE more than a little uncomfortable and distressing. 🤔
The “downs” can indeed be debilitating too.
“But I want him to want me on a level that’s unhealthy for his marriage and family, I wait for his texts and get annoyed if he doesn’t respond in the way I would like etc etc, now I try to fight the limerence by concentrating on his annoying sides…”
Your description here of how you feel is very eloquent. I imagine that a lot of women can relate. The fact you care about the health of his marriage and his family, as well as your own, speaks volumes about your character i.e. in a good way. 😉
Yes, I think a big, big problem with limerence for many people is … it kind of tricks the brain into reacting to LO as if one is already one half of a couple with LO, even if this isn’t the case! For some reason, boundaries seem to become blurred inside one’s own head. Indeed, one cannot evict LO from one’s head even if/when tries!! The tree of obsession refuses to be ripped out by the roots, and thus remains firmly entrenched. Desire begets yet more desire and more desire.
It’s been a long time since I’ve wanted someone on that level, so perhaps I am not the right person to consult. I am getting forgetful about what that feels like to be that … consumed. When one is no longer actively limerent, one struggles to empathise with desire – all desire, any desire. One feels as if one’s watching a movie on TV instead, and becomes more interested in set design than plot. 🙂
I mean, there must been many older people who struggle to remember the heady days of passion, or why they were excited about some paramour in the past. And they might scoff good-naturedly at some younger person who reports suffering from some persistent but unwanted attraction, just like the German population in the nineteenth century largely laughed at Goethe over his misguided/unrequited love for Charlotte von Stein. 🤔
My intention isn’t to scoff at you, or anyone else. Even though I’ve lived through limerence myself, I struggle to remember … how awful the lows are, how amazing the highs are, how possessive I felt about my “beloved”, how he really was the only thing that mattered to me.
“I admire you all that you analyzed so much about your childhood, parents etc. Maybe you just had to and I was lucky in not having to.”
I don’t really see myself as a role model or anything, and I don’t think what causes my TENDENCY toward limerence is necessarily the same thing that causes anyone else’s limerence, or tendency toward limerence. I’m more interested in my tendency toward limerence at this stage in the game as opposed to getting over a specific case.
I talk about my family of origin so much because when I was younger I wasn’t allowed to talk about my family of origin. There was a lot of secrecy in my family. So talking about my family in retrospect is cathartic for me – it helps me understand where I come from. 😉
Plus, some of the stories about my mother are just plain funny! 😁
“I‘m an adult now for a long time and want to be the one responsible for my behavior.”
Nothing wrong with taking a no-nonsense adult approach! 😛
I’m sort of at a point in my limerence where my limerence has mostly subsided. So I kind of enjoy hearing the nitty-gritty about other people’s lives. I’m fascinated in the biological and environment factors that maybe have shaped other people’s personalities. I wonder if limerents share anything in common (apart from limerence, of course). I think limerence intersects with everything, so it’s a departure point to talking about human nature in general. 🙂
Perhaps this ability of mine to take a desultory interest in other people’s lives should be taken as a sign that recovery (for me) is well and truly underway. I don’t feel the sadness now. I don’t feel that much guilt either. I’m not trapped inside my head. Long story short, the pain really does go away … eventually. Time takes away the horrible, gut-wrenching pain of loving someone who doesn’t love you back and yet maybe gives false hope of a reciprocal passion.
I actually think that what differentiates limerence from other romantic complaints is limerence isn’t an “inability to get over love”; limerence is an ‘inability to get over a broken heart”. Limerence isn’t about love. Limerence, for the most part, is about heartbreak. Limerence is about the dark side of love. Limerence is about … not getting what you want and not accepting that you can’t have it. 😉
But I understand anyone who feels impatient or irritated with their own inability to move on. Most people, unlike me, don’t have a couple spare decades free to get over some infatuation. I get that many people here are “stuck in a rut” and wants solutions. I get that talking ad nauseum about social customs may not be helpful. On the other hand, I feel that doing pretty much anything rather than obsessing over one’s LO is a move in the right direction. 😉
So when I encourage people to socialise more, preferably without LO present, what I’m really advocating is … taking an interest in the world. The world is bigger than one’s LO. But limerence reduces the world to just LO and one’s all-consuming fantasies about LO. But the world in all its infinite variety might constantly remind one of one’s LO too, so it’s very hard I know. Limerence is a real catch-22. 🤔
@Sammy,
„Yes, I think a big, big problem with limerence for many people is … it kind of tricks the brain into reacting to LO as if one is already one half of a couple with LO, even if this isn’t the case! For some reason, boundaries seem to become blurred inside one’s own head.“
„Limerence is about the dark side of love. Limerence is about … not getting what you want and not accepting that you can’t have it. 😉“
Hit it on the head again, Sammy. It‘s obvious that you are an old and wise hand at limerence.
I don’t feel scoffed at at all! It reassures me when you say that limerence seems to lose its sting when you get older.
I‘m waiting for that, actually.
I‘m quite sure that hormonal changes and upheavals play a role in the limerence getting more severe or physical.
Maybe it‘ll all get milder after menopause🤦🏻♀️
„I’m more interested in my tendency toward limerence at this stage in the game as opposed to getting over a specific case.“
Actually, me too.
„ So when I encourage people to socialise more, preferably without LO present, what I’m really advocating is … taking an interest in the world. The world is bigger than one’s LO. “
True words again:)
@Sammy,
By the way, don’t think I didn’t catch the compliment here:)
“ Your description here of how you feel is very eloquent. I imagine that a lot of women can relate. The fact you care about the health of his marriage and his family, as well as your own, speaks volumes about your character i.e. in a good way. 😉”
Thank you, but I’m not sure. Of course I know his wife and family also for years. I have to credit his wife with not showing any jealousy in the face of our friendship and always being lovely to me (although I imagined a little more restrained behavior during the last times we met). What kind of person am I to even contemplate betraying this kind of trust… would have been easier if she wouldn’t behave so impeccably. Also, he himself is kind of naive.
I sometimes feel like the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood or some other villain who has dark plans with an innocent person, to get him over to the dark side or whatever. Sigh.
@Mila.
“It reassures me when you say that limerence seems to lose its sting when you get older.
I‘m waiting for that, actually.
I‘m quite sure that hormonal changes and upheavals play a role in the limerence getting more severe or physical.
Maybe it‘ll all get milder after menopause🤦🏻♀️”
I don’t know if limerence loses its sting as one gets older, strictly speaking. I think limerence for a particular person can maybe hurt less with the passage of time – lots and lots of time. 🤔
I experienced most of my “big limerent upheaval” in my late teens and early 20s. The man I believed to be my LO – I lost him permanently from my life when I was 23. Never really felt angry at him. More like my brain wouldn’t recognise that he was gone. It’s taken me to 40 to feel like I’m completely out of the limerent episode. Now, I can look back and see the situation more objectively.
Some people experience a new limerent episode in their 40s, around midlife, and from the sound of things that experience may be as intense as a limerent episode from an earlier period of life.
Some people experience limerence for the first time in old age.
I don’t really understand the role hormones play in limerence. Technically, I shouldn’t be limerent for anyone at all, since my hormones seem to be all over the map. (Don’t know if I’m Arthur or Martha most days). But it does seem that once the train of obsessive thoughts is set in motion, it’s very hard to arrest the forward momentum of that train.
I don’t even think my LO “led me on” anymore. I just think he was someone who had a seemingly magical personality, and I just hooked into that personality, because it made me feel so good – for a time. However, I think my brain was also scrambling for an LO, any LO, before I met LO, and he just happened to fit the bill.
In other words, I was primed/ready to fall into limerence with somebody. I think limerence is just a “strong mating drive” some people have, nothing to do with childhood trauma or attachment styles. And my LO was just the first shiny unicorn on the scene. 😉
@Mila.
“By the way, don’t think I didn’t catch the compliment here:)”
Yes. That was a compliment. Well-spotted! 😉
“I sometimes feel like the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood or some other villain who has dark plans with an innocent person, to get him over to the dark side or whatever. Sigh.”
Don’t be too hard on yourself. Limerence is mostly taking place inside our heads. And limerence increases one’s anxiety to a level where perhaps one erroneously believes one is bad, one has done bad things already, or one would very much like to do bad things in the future. The old conscience does very much get a work-out!! 😆
While I was struggling with limerence, I read the detective novel “Sad Cypress” by Agatha Christie, and I very much identified with the main character – an incredibly kind and gentle woman who ended up believing she was guilty of crime because her mind started tricking her into thinking that all the evidence pointed her way. 🙄
Sometimes, in limerence, we’re not necessarily the accused, or the guilty party. But we’re always the judge and the jury! 😉
@sammy, @Mila
Like Sammy, I socialize much less (or zero) during LE, I could feel full or even ecstatic just to fantasy the Phantom and ideal interactions with him despite his absence. Now, one sign of my LE recovery is that I can enjoy more chitchats with other people w/o the Phantom constantly in my mind. I also occasionally see LO #5 (2 or 3 times a year) to catch up with all sorts of discussions on updated worldly events — still no glimmer on both sides.
Mila: if I were in your shoe, I would also want to be around LO as much as possible. Unlike you, my LO is not a close friend on surface (still don’t know a Sensor’s wanton mind). We can chitchat freely and comfortably in shared public space, but I try to avoid social-professional gatherings. While other colleagues and LO were present at the same, my whole neuro-system was more “on fire”, I worried excessively that others would detect my limerence for him — I can’t help with my eyes. There are already some whispering rumors/gossips and hostile/jealous looks, which I could strongly detect from others’ facial expressions and subtle curiosity; I hate unwanted attentions.
In our limerent mind, to be with LO at all cost is never “wasting time”; while in reality, we have “wasted” so much precious time and energy that would be utilized to pursue a more “purposeful life”. *sigh*
“In our limerent mind, to be with LO at all cost is never “wasting time”; while in reality, we have “wasted” so much precious time and energy that would be utilized to pursue a more “purposeful life”. *sigh*”
@Snowphoenix.
I’ve been thinking more about the emotions possibly underlying my inclination towards limerence, and less about the details of any interaction with any given individual. I think acknowledging the full spectrum of one’s emotions might be the key to dissolving an (unwanted) obsessive attachment. 🤔
I think the emotions underlying limerence for me are … a desire to be loved, a desire to be comforted, a desire for someone to help me manage my emotions when I’m upset, a desire for someone to acknowledge my emotions when I’m upset, a desire for physical affection that is not necessarily sexual, a desire to be held.
All these emotions, at least for me, seem to stem from unmet early childhood needs, and don’t relate very much to pair-bonding/romantic love at all.
I think I see in my mind’s eye a precious little boy who just wanted to be cherished by his mother and father, a precious little boy who enjoyed physical affection and wanted to be hugged and kissed a lot, a precious little boy who had big emotions and needed a bit of help in learning to regulate those big emotions. A little boy who was ignored and/or humiliated when he did express himself.
Unfortunately, as a developing child, I didn’t get emotional support from caregivers. My parents didn’t acknowledge my emotions as valid, or teach me how to regulate them in an appropriate way. My parents weren’t amused by my mistakes, as normal parents would be, while modelling a better way to handle something. I never learnt to self-soothe, as they say in self-help circles. I was mostly punished for showing emotion, and so I sort of repressed everything until I sort of broke down in my mid-teens i.e. fell into limerence.
I think the limerence-related anger I ‘ve felt in the past is really anger directed at neglectful early caregivers i.e. “How dare you be unresponsive to my needs!”
I think I’m prone to limerence in part due to a fear of being vulnerable, because as a child I learn from my caregivers that being vulnerable wasn’t safe. My parents weren’t going to nurture me if I expressed vulnerability. It was futile to show pain/sadness/distress.
I think I’ve fixated on four or maybe five different men in my life, and all of those men were somewhat kind-hearted. But none of those men could be the ideal parent I was looking for, the ideal parent who could compensate me for all the needs I didn’t get met in childhood.
I know attachment wounds don’t explain limerence for everyone. But in my own case, certainty, I can see a very strong link between limerence and attachment wounds. I think limerence for me was trying to find one absolutely safe person to whom I could attach and then detach. (In other words, I was looking for a symbolic mother who could help me complete some important developmental step).
Snowphoenix
„if I were in your shoe, I would also want to be around LO as much as possible.“
Actually I‘m torn between wanting to und not wanting. Because, to say it bluntly, to be with him means to be close but not to be able to touch him. Which is kind of hard for me at the moment, I have a very physical craving for him.
I should be grateful to have so much but I always want more. Why can I not be content with being good or even best friends?
I should really learn that I cannot have it all.
I feel greedy, childish and ungrateful, when I read all your stories here.
(Please, nobody reassure me that I‘m not. I know that I am and working on it).
@Mila,
I just wanted to look at LO’s eyes and feel the vibe; so being around LO did not require much of my stoic willpower to control underline drives, Strange, I rarely had an urge to physically touch…. In my fantasies, yes.
With cptsd, I often felt like living in another’s body in public — uncomfortable, nervous, alienated, or even numb. Sammy probably knows what I’m talking about here.
With limerence, I wished emotional reciprocation, which I believed could be perceived through LO’s eyes, facial expressions, or careful chosen words…. All illusions! Thus mental activities hijacked bodily sensations.
I also don’t care much about to “have it all”; I had “have it all” before, but did not feel fulfilled. The more I craved for something EXTERNAL beforehand, the more disappointed when I got it. My own imagination, creativity and productivity — no matter how small, gratify my Self most.
@Sammy
“I think acknowledging the full spectrum of one’s emotions might be the key to dissolving an (unwanted) obsessive attachment. “
That’s what I have been doing even before I got on LwL; I tried to recall all my emotional states and circumstances/environmental adversities around the time my limerence took place. As my earlier messages in July pointed out that my emotions underlying limerence for me is cptsd, the profound attachment wound (bonding especially with Mother ) inflected by Narc Mom, the culture and society….
“I think the emotions underlying limerence for me are … a desire to be loved, a desire to be comforted, a desire for someone to help me manage my emotions when I’m upset, a desire for someone to acknowledge my emotions when I’m upset, a desire for physical affection that is not necessarily sexual, a desire to be held.”
Have you somehow zoomed into my brain— you just said exactly everything I would have said, not so eloquently, though. I previously said I was looking for a surrogate Parent — more of a maternal parent in men, motherly-LO — thus strong femininity in men, not much masculinity. Also in physical intimacy with LOs, my back wanted to be held most so I could feel safe “at home”. When young, I spent more time in daycare and weekcare, and never felt “at home” at my parents’ home. My COO was no-touch/hug, no-praise (possibly encouraging excessive pride in kids), no verbal expressions of affection, no tears, even for girls!
“All these emotions, at least for me, seem to stem from unmet early childhood needs, and don’t relate very much to pair-bonding/romantic love at all. I think I see in my mind’s eye a precious little boy who just wanted to be cherished by his mother and father, a precious little boy who enjoyed physical affection and wanted to be hugged and kissed a lot, a precious little boy who had big emotions and needed a bit of help in learning to regulate those big emotions. A little boy who was ignored and/or humiliated when he did express himself.”
Just change “boy” in the paragraph to “girl”, you would have the picture of my childhood. Up to this date, I don’t remember any loving kisses on forehead or affectionate hugs from my parents. At least, you have two sisters; I have NO siblings and begged to death, in vain. Yet, Mom had 3 abortions after me (lucky to be the first). Picture a life of Cinderella with her stepmother, without two stepsisters but frequent unwarned slaps on her face from 10-15, if doing dishes or other household chore was delayed for 10 minutes…
I’m prone to limerence because unconsciously I was looking for a missing ideal “mother” in LO and other female friends. Aside from 2 Narc LOs (Instinctively I didn’t glimmer at them), all other LOs “appeared” sweet, soft-spoken, patient-eared, tolerant/indulging, understanding…
Only this time, I felt more repeating an old pattern of looking for a parent in LO, so I observed my mental states by keeping a “emotional journal” and clearly realized that communicating with LO in person or writing instantly took out the 6 yrs old of me from within! This revelation is further confirmed by Crappy Childhood Fairy and LwL.
Needless to repeat your realization — “none of those men could be the ideal parent I was looking for, the ideal parent who could compensate me for all the needs I didn’t get met in childhood.” Looking back, No LOs or even semi-gods could meet my childhood unmet needs!
“I think limerence for me was trying to find one absolutely safe person to whom I could attach and then detach. (In other words, I was looking for a symbolic mother who could help me complete some important developmental step).”
For me, , I’m not sure I would emotionally detach from that “safe person”, although intellectually I know I’ll have to make up “some important developmental steps” on my own. NO one, absolutely No One else could substitute that “ideal parent” for us, since we no longer stand in “the same river.” — we are no longer that kid!
@Snowphoenix.
“My COO was no-touch/hug, no-praise (possibly encouraging excessive pride in kids), no verbal expressions of affection, no tears, even for girls!”
It’s extraordinary that this is the cultural norm in so many places. I don’t think parents should spoil their offspring, or anything like that, but I’m not sure how people “bond” successfully if emotions remain strictly off-limits? I think feelings are the lifeblood of all relationships.
This is probably my biggest criticism of my family of origin – we were “close” and spent heaps of time together, but there seemed to be little real bonding ever taking place between husband and wife, mother and child. (There was some bonding amongst the children in the family. My father and younger sister established a close tie). Something was preventing genuine bonding from taking place…
“Have you somehow zoomed into my brain— you just said exactly everything I would have said, not so eloquently, though. I previously said I was looking for a surrogate Parent — more of a maternal parent in men, motherly-LO — thus strong femininity in men, not much masculinity.”
In my family of origin, my father worked full-time and my mother stayed home. So, from the outside, it looked like normal gender roles were being practised. However, I think my mother occupied the “father” role in the family and my father occupied the “mother” role in the family, which might be the cause of my sexual confusion.
My father was the much softer parent. Based on my early life experiences, I equate men with nurturing and women not so much. My mother can’t empathise at all; everything for her is about image, appearance, how something looks. The image of “perfect family life” was/is much more important to her than being part of a family.
“I’m prone to limerence because unconsciously I was looking for a missing ideal “mother” in LO and other female friends. Aside from 2 Narc LOs (Instinctively I didn’t glimmer at them), all other LOs “appeared” sweet, soft-spoken, patient-eared, tolerant/indulging, understanding…”
I think “falling in love” is completely natural, and shouldn’t be pathologised in any way. However, I think “falling in love” should also be seen as quite an ordinary part of life – a little bit of excitement, a little bit of anxiety, but not too much of either.
Limerence is sort of “too much excitement” and “too much anxiety” – at least to my evolving way of thinking. The reaction is just too intense. Falling in love should feel like a natural thing to do in life.
I agree that gentle, easy-going people do make lovely LOs! The only trouble is that such people have their own busy lives to lead! 😉
I’m only just realising now how I was taught as a child that emotions, and especially expressing them, was bad. My therapist who I’ve just started to see asked about it and I realised I was always told not to cry (I did and still do a lot but I felt I had to hold it in as much as I could), not to ‘be silly’ and everything was very much ‘stiff upper lip’ and feelings not recognised. Apart from anger. Lots of arguments and tension. My parents were amazing in a lot of ways, and I’m very lucky, but this is an area where they were not (and still fail to be) helpful.
I wonder if that’s why I love acting so much; it gives me an outlet to be someone else and express strong emotions.
Excellent Cat, sounds like you are off to a great start. It seems like you’re in a better place today.
It’s probably correct to assume that is why you love acting. Having that inner aggression and being able to act your feelings out by being somebody else, I’m sure is huge burden lifter. Get past some of your Demons and try out for the next play that comes along. Don’t give up something you love.
@Sammy
“but I’m not sure how people “bond” successfully if emotions remain strictly off-limits? I think feelings are the lifeblood of all relationships.”
There is little substantial emotional bonding between people from my COO, based on general western standards; I befriend with many males peers, but do not date them. I know the culture too well and couldn’t help criticize it, while almost all of them defend it.
“I think my mother occupied the “father” role in the family and my father occupied the “mother” role in the family, which might be the cause of my sexual confusion.”
Both my parents worked full-time, Mom busier than Dad. Father cooked more, took care of all family’s logistic matters, while headed his department and taught graduate students. Being tired all the time, Mom did minimum household work and often escaped into her books while Dad and I were still “household working”. On the surface, Dad (also ocd) was the “master” of the house, but Mom passive-aggressively manipulated him. Dad was opmistic, soft, fair, and funny, Mom was extremely pessimistic, unable to even empathize herself — very insecure inside, totally depending on Dad outside her work, yet disloyal to him…. Still the image of a “perfect family” was the most important to both of them, thus I had to be molded into a “perfect child!” 😖 I would faint if I see flowing blood, so naturally followed Dad’s footprint.
“I think “falling in love” is completely natural, and shouldn’t be pathologised in any way. However, I think “falling in love” should also be seen as quite an ordinary part of life – a little bit of excitement, a little bit of anxiety, but not too much of either.”
Growing up with undiagnosed, unrealized cptsd, I don’t think I knew any difference between “falling in love” and “fall in limerence”. It was either nothing, or volcano. Any male who could kindly, gently, accidentally provide me some perceived motherly affections, something more than Mom + Dad ever did give, I was just immediately, automatically attached to him, wishing to give anything I could, without knowing how “properly”. Every LO came into my life like a saving star, even those Narcs in disguise!
I believe, without treating cptsd and substantially healing from the profound attachment wounds, we would be doomed to live in a perpetual “dire” situation, no matter how cool and strong we look like on the surface. I’m still battling with my cptsd symptoms everyday with painful awareness and necessary meditations: while not effective— falling in sleep; mildly effective — feeling less melancholy or peaceful; highly effective — becoming giddy or high for no reasons.
“Limerence is sort of “too much excitement” and “too much anxiety” – at least to my evolving way of thinking. The reaction is just too intense. Falling in love should feel like a natural thing to do in life.”
For us who have unhealed cptsd, falling in love is always like falling into limerence, because we are subconsciously, neurochemically tricked to believe that our volcanic limerent passion, aroused by this rescue LO, could finally pull us out from our original, familial “dire pit.”
Dr.L’s hard copy book will arrive tomorrow.
Correction: “Any glimmered LO who could kindly, gently, accidentally provide me….”
“I believe, without treating cptsd and substantially healing from the profound attachment wounds, we would be doomed to live in a perpetual “dire” situation, no matter how cool and strong we look like on the surface. I’m still battling with my cptsd symptoms everyday with painful awareness and necessary meditations: while not effective— falling in sleep; mildly effective — feeling less melancholy or peaceful; highly effective — becoming giddy or high for no reasons.”
@Snowphoenix.
I think most people who grow up with at least one narcissistic parent end up with cptsd, or some form of severe anxiety…
I think the human body’s default state should probably be “relaxed”. But children who grew up in chaotic homes are unaware that feeling relaxed is normal, and most normal adults feel relaxed most of the time. I.e. one should only feel anxious in the face of real danger. Anxiety should never be a constant or default state of being. 😉
I think my general level of physiological arousal has been too high all my life, and it’s only just now that it’s starting to come down to what I think are closer-to-normal levels.
I think if a child has some episode in their life where they feel intensely anxious, (for me, this was probably the thought of having to go to preschool/school) and they don’t learn an effective way to deal with that anxiety, the anxiety will snowball. 🤔
“I wonder if that’s why I love acting so much; it gives me an outlet to be someone else and express strong emotions.”
@ C for cat.
I enjoyed the odd bit of acting in high school. One year, I played Launcelot Gobbo, the jester from “The Merchant of Venice”.
I did the speech where he has an angel sitting on one shoulder and a devil sitting on the other shoulder, and the angel and the devil are bickering with each other comedically about which is the right choice to make. My peers greatly enjoyed my performance.
If I recall correctly, I played the angel as a female and the devil as a male. (Very stereotypical of me, I know). It wasn’t really acting for me – I’ve always felt morally conflicted about most things! 😆
Thanks MJ, I am in a better place in terms of starting to deal with things that have plagued my life for so many years, but rather cruelly am also in one of the worst episodes of depression I’ve ever had. Just hanging on in there until I can function around people again!
Sammy – that sounds a fun part. I’ve done a lot of Shakespeare and absolutely love it, but never the Merchant of Venice.
“I think most people who grow up with at least one narcissistic parent end up with cptsd, or some form of severe anxiety…” @Sammy
Children grow up with a Narc/narc parent would also be prone to be narcissistic themselves because they’re pre-exposed to such conditions and behaviors. Along with other environmental factors, I have 35% narc traits, which is not all detrimental, e.g healthy pride, willpower to carry through tasks….
“I think the human body’s default state should probably be “relaxed”. But children who grew up in chaotic homes are unaware that feeling relaxed is normal, and most normal adults feel relaxed most of the time. I.e. one should only feel anxious in the face of real danger. Anxiety should never be a constant or default state of being. 😉”
I agree with you. Since I was not at home the most of time during childhood (stayed at daycare or weekcare), I didn’t know what relaxation would feel like (I felt it with Granny from 2.5-4; then 7-7.5). It was so lonely and painful that I must have somehow developed skills to daydream/ fantasy and totally believe in them, thus setting up a foundation for an ideal limerence down the road — direct and play all characters in the head, and let them to fulfill whatever I needed and desired. The outside would was shut down, and I “lived” in a glass jar with eating, sleeping, and household chores. Later, I found I was out of touch with reality the most of time, no matter in which social groups, always feeling awkward and unfit.
With perfectionism in both parents, my default was “doing”, not “being”; couldn’t feel relaxed without feeling bored. I felt a need to constantly check if something needed to be done and to be done “perfectly.” I could not guilty-freely enjoy a book because it was considered as a waste of time — not actively producing anything. If no chores or books around, I would really feel unreasonable anxious — I must have forgotten something or something bad was going to happen — Mom had catastrophisized most matters under the sun at dinner table and always spoken with the certainty of a Supreme Court judge. I think my OCD was gradually cultivated under my parents’ nagging and critical eyes, though Dad was much laidback, without weaving “a surgical knife” in his hand!
“I think if a child has some episode in their life where they feel intensely anxious, (for me, this was probably the thought of having to go to preschool/school) and they don’t learn an effective way to deal with that anxiety, the anxiety will snowball.”
My intense anxiety or pain was to spend all day or all week at that day/week care center — there was no way out! Thus the perpetual fear of being “abandoned” — always dropped and picked up by Dad (not once by Mom). Nowadays, I can recognize such feelings arising with ordinary matters — I’d feel “abandoned”:
1. if I stayed in an empty office (shared by several) or classroom for longer than 10 minutes, while I could stay comfortably in my own office or home as long as I wish.
2. If my visitors left the town for their home or my students graduated for a new life in the world.
3. If LO left the office premises earlier than I did — my legs literally got temporarily weak, which could last from o.5-2 hours.
As my self-awareness increases and my meditation positively affects, I hope my cptsd’s symptoms could continue being reduced or at least weakened. I so want to feel relaxed without any sense of guilt, boredom or aimless anticipation.
“With perfectionism in both parents, my default was “doing”, not “being”; couldn’t feel relaxed without feeling bored. I felt a need to constantly check if something needed to be done and to be done “perfectly.” I could not guilty-freely enjoy a book because it was considered as a waste of time — not actively producing anything.”
@Snowphoenix.
I think people with difficult childhoods might always be looking for external validation. I.e. “Should i do this? Is this the right thing to do? Someone tell me what to do!”
I think, once we reach a certain age as humans, there isn’t really a right thing to do in some situations. E.g. there’s no “right job”. There are only jobs. Perhaps there is no right mate. Maybe there’s only a variety of people one could potentially marry.
At some point, human beings have to do things because they get intrinsic enjoyment from the doing.
Here’s a fun example. Let’s say there’s a person with a talent for painting. Should that person paint because they love painting? Or should they only paint in order to win a painting prize, and give up painting in disgust if the prize they want consistently goes to somebody else?
If someone gives up painting because they didn’t win the big prize, does that mean they don’t really love painting for painting’s sake? 🤔
@Sammy
“I think people with difficult childhoods might always be looking for external validation. I.e. “Should i do this? Is this the right thing to do? Someone tell me what to do!”
You nailed the issue here! Examining back, I found almost all endeavors, big or small, I pursued was to (in)directly get some “external validation” whether real or imagined. Even when I rebelled against the system or parental authority, I did not do for myself, but for the sake of rebelling against something, gaining a false power.
My daily challenge lies in to feel at ease or at home when there isn’t significant goals to chase after, and can enjoy leisure reading or watcg artsy movies without feeling guilty — a life-time habit to change. I rarely watch any TV or Netflix, because my mind hammers me that it’s wasting precious time, although I don’t know what I could “produce” during those precious time, that could better the world and the whole humanity!
Nowadays, my meditation is a means to quiet down my restlessness.
“I think, once we reach a certain age as humans, there isn’t really a right thing to do in some situations. E.g. there’s no “right job”. There are only jobs. Perhaps there is no right mate. Maybe there’s only a variety of people one could potentially marry.”
Totally agree with you here! There isn’t “right job” or “right social status”, “right population”, and “right person” to marry. It all comes back to Socratic big quest: Know Thy Self” and then find what’s working or not with this Self — Jungian individuation.
Ideally without economic strains, I think painters, writers, and every creative soul should pursue and devote their energy and talents to whatever their passions lie (passions evolve, of course), for themselves as well as society — fruits of their talents and productivities as beneficial “side effects”. Creating arts for the sake of profit or prize is not my thing…
I love the character in Virginia Woolf’s “To the Lighthouse”– Lili Broscoe, who contently paints with ease, can rationalize art with a male guest, but also can use her so-called feminine side to empathize with Mrs. Ramsay.
Sorry , Snowphoenix, what is COO?
Ah you mean country of origin, now I get it, sorry
Snowphoenix,
“We rarely talk about other men except a superficial bit of SOs or dates.”
I talk about the hottie male employees at work with other female employees. Not with every woman, of course, but a couple. We point out when one is physically near us so we can watch him, cruise him, etc. Maybe we’ll message each other: Heads up! 🙂
@marcia,
That’s cool that you could “gossip” about male hotties, that’s a ticklish distraction! 😋 Around my environment, it’s inappropriate to chitchat about single males or females besides their professional performance and occasionally personality issues. My lip is zipped about my embarrassing, lingering LE to anyone around me, which caused my short breath sometimes.
As you posted previously, adult women in my circle rarely chitchatted about makeup stuff or even outfit, what’s in them to discuss or debate ?! We do talk about how to cook some ethnic speciality food.
I have scanned over some of your orders posts in some older blogs, which has spiraled my brain-drilling sometimes… but I didn’t want to follow two-year old posts — we all change and evolve. So let’s focus here and now, and try to spin LE out of our system soon.
Snowphoenix,
“Around my environment, it’s inappropriate to chitchat about single males or females”
They’re not all single. We just talk about hotties in general. Although I do talk about them with other single women. The married women don’t seem interested.
“My lip is zipped about my embarrassing, lingering LE to anyone around me, which caused my short breath sometimes.”
I wouldn’t talk about an LE at work, particuarly if my LO worked with us. That’s giving the co-workers too much personal information. I’m talking about what you wrote: a distraction.
“I have scanned over some of your orders posts in some older blogs, which has spiraled my brain-drilling sometimes… but I didn’t want to follow two-year old posts — we all change and evolve. So let’s focus here and now, and try to spin LE out of our system soon.”
Not sure whatyou mean. The LE is out of my system. I’m just in “all shields up,” preventative mode now. 🙂
Marcia,
” I’m just in “all shields up,” preventative mode now. 🙂”
Too bad you don’t click links…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4srq5hi0XA – “Star Trek II, The Wrath of Khan”
@Marcia,
Sorry about my wrong assumption. With limited scanning, I did not know where you (as well many others) are in terms of LE recovery. Being here about 45 days, I also have not finished all older blogs and their commentaries; it’s overwhelming.
Glad to hear that you are a “shielded up” or “weaponized” limerent, congratulations! 👏 I think I might be 75-80% out of limerence. Once I learned and could analyze what LE is all about (I 100% fit the definition and all the symptoms), I was one foot out. Knowledge of science and rationalization, along with physical and spiritual workouts, could KILL puzzling pains or illusional romance. They are a double-bladed sword!
Now almost everyday, I had a hearty laugh at myself for those 14- years old lovestruck acts. My LE looks more comical now, after all that helpless limerence suffering! I’m too embarrassed to even confess to my best gf, and refused to tell my last shrink despite her professional “nosiness.”
Four years ago, I randomly watched a 10-minute video talking about limerence and immediately decided I could not have such a ridiculous “love sickness”…. Now I feel very lucky to have stumbled into LwL, frankly chatted with fellow limerent “ghosts”, discovered more about myself, and been inching my way out…. 🙂
I’m more hopeful now.
Life is a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel.”
― Jean Racine
“Life is a tragedy when seen in close-up, but comedy in long-shot”.
— Charlie Chaplin
@Snowphoenix.
Those are two very interesting quotes.
I used to think life was a comedy, and prided myself on my ability to laugh at things. Now, I think I was reacting with the callousness of youth to other people’s misfortunes. As one grows older, one acquires more compassion perhaps. So now I think some acknowledgement of the tragic side of life is appropriate…
Limerence can be tragic, for example, because someone might pour a lot of time and energy into a particular relationship that never gets off the ground, and that time and energy can’t be spent on other things or other relationships. 🤔
“I used to think life was a comedy, and prided myself on my ability to laugh at things. Now, I think I was reacting with the callousness of youth to other people’s misfortunes. As one grows older, one acquires more compassion perhaps. So now I think some acknowledgement of the tragic side of life is appropriate…
@Sammy
I’m opposite of you: all my childhood and youth, I thought life as a tragedy (witnessed a lot of tragic events of my own and others). Now looking back in distance, I especially found my limerence experiences comic with epic after epic of melancholy, sad, mourning sentiments, proses, and lyrics…
But I do feel more compassion for others’ suffering as I’m struggling and gradually bringing myself out of my ruminating head. I need more self-compassion instead of endless shame and guilt; If I were more knowledgeable and wiser, I could have avoided so much suffering. I need to strengthening more of my logical thinking.
“Limerence can be tragic, for example, because someone might pour a lot of time and energy into a particular relationship that never gets off the ground, and that time and energy can’t be spent on other things or other relationships. 🤔”
My limerence fits your description PERFECTLY, and I’m not out of it yet. I still see and chitchat with LO regularly (although he looks much less “shinny” than before), just feeing much, much less nervous or wondering, and able to authentically enjoy our public, limited, superficial interactions there and then — I can never make an enemy out of him, a leading-on Sensor or not — that’s his own business.
When we chat, the previous 6 years seems to have never existed, how surreal! If I catch myself slipping into daydreaming or rumination later, I go into my meditation literally in a second — the only requirement is to shut my eyes.
I want to experiment if I can keep limerence’s moderate or high sensations, while using my cocktail meditation to reduce any pain of its “low”. I do find that any hope of impossibles brings a subtle pain or a deep “sigh”, while an effective meditation could bring me euphoria without anything changed realistically in the matter. How mysterious!
@Cordelia,
Sorry for the late reply back. It’s been a mother of a day for me here and it’s about 3am now. I’m ready to finally wind down.
Yes you did read something awhile back that I had posted relating to having no real issues growing up. Other than what could be considered normal bullying from other kids and social awkwardness within myself. I am an only child, so I guess it comes with the territory. My Father always taught me that Girls are much easier to talk to than Boys. At the time, I didn’t believe it. But that was about all the education I got from him about Girls. Basically he always told me not to be afraid. Didn’t matter. I was shy. Still am to this day. But over time I have come to see that he was correct. Because when I do connect with a Woman, it is really easy once the vibe feels right. Mainly I have always had to teach myself how to communicate better to others.
As for LO connecting with my Daughter, that would be a dream come true. Both LO and my Daughter are blondes. My Daughter is all into fashion and having perfect nails and getting her hair colored and frosted (Just like LO). I always like to picture them hanging out, going shopping together, getting their nails done, and yes, hoping LO would humanize me again to my Daughter. There’s like only an 11 year age difference between them. She could be like a cool big sister to her and I would love to see them get along.
LO also does hair extensions, hair coloring, and lash extensions as a side gig after work. She does it out of her house. I could totally see my Daughter adoring that and having LO doll her up before a big date. She would love that and it would warm my heart. But alas, it’s just part of the fantasy I have in my sick and twisted mind. Nothing more. But its a beautiful thought I would love to see become reality.
The last Therapist did give me some suggestions when they rejected me this last time, so I wasn’t left high and dry. Thing is they suggested the local nut house around here. (Literally, no joke, it has always been referred to as that) and the other suggestion was the same Counselor my Daughter is going to. So that’s out. It’s like I just can’t believe I’m that complex and the Therapists around here are that ignorant. I feel offended, but I do work in a Big City and about 15 miles north is downtown. I’ve already done some online searching but I have to read up some more about them and then hopefully make a contact where scheduling will not conflict with work. I will keep you posted if I need your suggestions again. Or I’ll try to look them up in the blogs. May have to really consider it, but the Therapists I’m searching do know something about limerence according to their webpage, so my fingers are crossed.
Thanks again for your help and support Cheerleader. Don’t be a Stranger.. 😊🤗💖
@Cordelia,
You may be on to something there. Not entirely sure. I know that in rumination, I can go the romantic route. Often at night, I hold a pillow next to me and pretend It’s LO I’m holding close and cuddling with.
Over time I have always kind of considered that LO in some way, must be my do-over Girl.
She is 28 and almost the same age as my Wife was when we married years ago. I made plenty of mistakes and for the longest time wanted to make up for it. Even after divorce. Never getting that chance.
Going through the whole midlife drama now has me thinking that I’m not getting any younger. I get anxious I will never see or ever possibly be with another Woman as incredible as LO. There is a great anxiety I get when I feel like time is running out. Ultimately that can even bring me to tears.
With LO, I guess I was banking on something wonderful coming out of it. A potential good relationship with LO and my Daughter would be icing on the cake. I’m not sure how I would bring that into play though, other than just coming right out and asking LO if she’d like to color my Daughters hair. I’d almost hate to open up with something like that. Not even sure if having kids is even in her remote future. Thinking how could she want me in a capacity like that if she doesn’t even like/want kids? Guess it’s 50/50. Won’t know until I ask.
You can just put that 250 on my tab. Because I know I’ll need some more of that Good Dr. Cordelia advice in the future.. 😉💖
Snowphoenix,
“My LE looks more comical now, after all that helpless limerence suffering! I’m too embarrassed to even confess to my best gf, and refused to tell my last shrink despite her professional “nosiness.””
I don’t think you need to be embarrassed. You’re working on the limerence; you’re making progress. But a word of caution about friends: they can be very unsupportive or look at you blankly after you tell them about an LO. And my therapist knew nothing about limerence. Like you, I stumbled on this site and had to kind of cure myself. Although my therapsit did point out a few things my LO was doing to lead me on and how little was going on between us. And that did help a bit. But I was so deep in the middle of the LE, I don’t know how well I heard it at the time.
After much thought my wife is correct. At the least I need an extended break from here. At the best, a goodbye. I hate goodbyes. Hate them. I’ve had to do too many in recent years. Friends, family, acquaintances …. and now here.
These two songs always soothed me for some reason. My folks had the 45 of it (yeah I am that old. also remember 8-tracks) and I listened to it a lot. It was on a huge cabinet record player that sat in the living room that was larger than today’s cars. My mother would often comment how much I played it. It’s on a loop on youtube now as I post this.
The Last Farewell/Paradise — Roger Whittacker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbjGtFnzWvg
There are numerous people on this site, including Dr L, that words can’t even begin to explain how much you have done for me. It will sound cliché but there are so many and I am sorry that there are a few to mention by name. Ah to hell with it. I fell the need to be overly dramatic and emotional. (And I am sober, so that’s a helluva a compliment. Though I am on my way not to being.)
I am going to make an attempt at this …. with much more editing as this post goes on as my memory feeds me …. ladies first …. Allie, Cordillia, Marcia, Miss Lovisa, Summer, Limmy (and all her username variations lol). Vikkie, Sammy, C4Cat, Mila, Snowphoneix, ABCD, Nisor, IMHO, Emma …. my ladies I apologize if I forgot you. This old man is not what he use to be.
Now for my brothers from another mother …. L.E. … thank you. Your help has been indelible. You are LwL’s Vulcan. Speedwagon, Lost In Space, MJ, Dr. L, rufio, frederico, Jason M ….
I remember and thank you all for my recovery. You have no idea how much you have helped. In case this is a final post I wish to talk to three people here. I really don’t want to single out people but in the event this is the last you hear from me I don’t want regrets. I already have plenty of them in this stupid mid life $hit I am going through now.
Miss Lovisa and Marcia
When Mother let me put sugar with my Cheerios and when she wouldn’t….Miss Lovisa you were the first person to respond to me. Your sweet words helped me understand what I was going through to start. It helped me have the courage to confront my wife about my limerence. You are indelibly the most intricate person, as a commenter, to understanding and accepting what Dr L has researched and shared here. I would have never been more accepting of my condition if it weren’t for you sweet words Miss Lovisa. I wish that you hadn’t left. You have an amazing ability to touch people with your words. God has blessed you with the ability to reach people’s hearts. I will forever be indebted to you Miss Lovisa. I hope that you are your family are well. And I wish you the best in everything God and life have in store for you.
Marcia …. I remember when you were just done with me when you found out LO was younger than me. I remember that conversation very well. It’s burned into my brain to remind me what my wife felt seeing me give my eyes and attention to a much younger woman. It made me think how hurtful I was to her. I very much appreciate your candid responses early on. They seemed harsh then but when I go back and read them later I thank you for it. You, like Momma, don’t pull any punches and say what needs to be said. You and Miss Lovisa are the two sides of the same coin I am so glad to have found. If this be it Marcia, I wish you the best in life.
MJ
I want to share a short (I am going to try and make it so) story with you. Back in my younger days, I grew into those years with my best friend. I had a huge crush on my best friend’s older sister. I never said anything. He was my best friend. She was his sister. I quashed all my feelings for her. Don’t do that MJ. You have a chance with LO. If you feel the “friend” she is with is more than that than I understand not intervening. But don’t loose this chance otherwise. I understand rejection. There was a young lady I was so enamored with before my wife and I took the chance and she wasn’t interested. It killed me. But I knew. She was for the most part straight forward and there was no doubt. Take that chance MJ. At least you will know one way or another. And nothing would be a greater joy than to come back from a sabbatical to hear you and LO are together.
LO’s name is Morgan
Farewell for now, Adam, my noble friend.
Adam,
“If this be it Marcia, I wish you the best in life.”
Wish you the best, too.
I’ll leave you with the words Casey Kasem used to end his weekly radio program: Keep you feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars! (I’m not really sure what that means, but if you are old enough to remember 45s and 8-tracks, you’re old enough to remember Casey Kasem. :))
@Adam,
Thank you for chatting and providing me with your unique insight and perspective on so many things in life.
Farewell for now, and I wish you a great luck and strength in your LE’s total recovery and “new” journey.
Adam, thank you for those kind words. I’m flattered you remembered me. I’ve always tried to be myself here in this forum. Trying to bring all my failings with LO to the table. I still don’t understand why her. Why now? I’ve never felt such intensity for another human being. It’s crazy sick.
Having you here to chat with from time to time, share music with, listen to your stories and basically just identify with you completely, how this has all been a life altering experience, has helped me put things into better perspective about it. I like to think my presence and even my own failings have helped you back. Maybe others as well.
As much as our LE’s differ, I know you have always meant well and wished the best for me. These days I’m wallowing in a lot of self pity and I try not to bring too much of that sadness here, as I’m sure nobody really cares to know about it. I do believe that “Dude” is LOs SO, and I’m really trying to respect that boundary, considering he still works in my building. But it is hard to want to approach her anyway. Even if he wasn’t in the picture, I still highly doubt much would change. But I hear what you are saying. If anything now, I think I really kind of want/need to start with her by apologizing. Perhaps for being so, not owned-up in my efforts to reach her, as I know she knows I was going for it. Try to show her I’m ok and that freaking her out was never my intent. I just wanted it to be a perfect conversation, that eventually would lead to a happily-ever-after. (Or something close to that.) Never say never. Something may be possible. If only a friendship becomes of it, I will be content with that.
I will miss your presence here if you stay away. But hope it will not be for long. I’ve tried not to bring so much hopeful ruminating when I come here but it’s never that easy. For me at least. I try to gauge by seeing where others are in the blogs, by what I post. Sometimes the feelings just come out. I get it. This place can be a blessing and a curse. You though Adam have been a blessing to me.
Never forget that. To me and to many others. I hate good byes myself.
If this really is your last time, I’d like to send you off with a favorite poem of mine, that I like to give to my closest friends when I know they are going away. Possibly never seeing them again. I don’t have to bring it out all that often, but like to have it handy for occasions like this. It can also very much apply to LO’s..
Train of Life
By Jean d’Ormesson
At birth, we boarded the train of life and met our parents,
and we believed that they would always travel by our side.
However, at some station, our parents would step down from the train,
leaving us on life’s journey alone.
As time goes by, some significant people will board the train:
siblings, other children, friends, and even the love of our life.
Many will step down and leave a permanent vacuum.
Others will go so unnoticed that we won’t realize that they vacated their seats!
This train ride has been a mixture of joy, sorrow, fantasy,
expectations, hellos, goodbyes, and farewells.
A successful journey consists of having a good relationship with all passengers,
requiring that we give the best of ourselves.
The mystery that prevails is that we do not know at
which station we ourselves will step down.
Thus, we must try to travel along the track of life in the best possible way –
loving, forgiving, giving, and sharing.
When the time comes for us to step down and leave our seat empty –
we should leave behind beautiful memories for
those who continue to travel on the train of life. Let’s remember to thank our Creator
for giving us life to participate in this journey and to be grateful we have been given such a wonderful gift.
I thank God for you and I thank you for
being one of the passengers on my train.
Your Friend,
MJ. 😉
PS, Thank you also for giving LO a name..
Bye Adam, I hope you and your wife are able to move forward together; it seems you have a lot of reasons to fight for your relationship. Thank you for your support, and good luck.
To echo everyone else here, thank you for your input. I especially appreciated your honesty from the limerent perspective. It helped me make some difficult but necessary decisions that definitely worked out for the best. I hope you can get back on track with your wife and family. There is clearly a lot of love there!
Wishing you well, Adam. I’m glad if you got something good out of LwL! 😛
Adam,
I‘m very honored to read my name there although I didn’t write so much here that could have helped you and don’t know as much about your story as the others.
I think you’ve made a brave and sensible decision and I give you and your wife all my best thoughts and wishes!
I hope very much that all will work out well for you and your family!
I know, I said I’d spend less time here.
But now I was curious and read up on Speedwagons story. Which made me realize
1. that my suggestions to him were pretty useless since he tried everything already- low contact, friendly contact, too much contact, and so difficult to find the balance.
2. that I understand what L.E. said about the former discussions being more on point and more intent on solutions to individual LEs compared to philosophical discourses.
3. that it actually does me good to be here, because I stop ruminating about my LO and start thinking about the overall meaning of LEs in my life.
I feel that I (and maybe Speedwagon) don’t need to find the right way to communicate/think with/about LO. I need to find sth in my life that gives me the same feeling of validation and happiness as these LEs.
I know, I know, purposeful living etc, Dr L already said it all…
But it’s still different to really understand it on a personal level, and it’s difficult to really live it or find these elusive occupations that would help me get into this happy purposeful state (I love my job and colleagues, I love my family , I‘m quite healthy etc, no need to drastic changes there).
Someone, I think Marcia, said that she never found sth that gave her the same feeling. Worrying.
Mila
I am finding that, after three years, the limerent beast gradually, very gradually, loses strength. That is unless, as I have unwisely done several times, you relent and poke it with a stick. Then it feels great for a couple of days before the beast stirs itself and bites you.
Purposeful living still seems to elude me but any distraction seems to help.
Frederico,
Three years for you for one LE, I gather?
I’ve been limerent for different people (including SO) and I agree, yes, after approximately three years a LE begins to flicker and get weaker. (if it doesn’t evolve into a relationship like with my SO).
But this was always the moment another person started to glimmer and I, glad of the distraction, went into the next LE head over heels, in the beginning telling myself all the time that this time I won‘t, it‘s harmless, it‘s just a new friend, whatever..
So the beast is always awake somewhere in the background, for about eight years.
Any distraction helps? Maybe you are right, but I think that works only if the beast is actually already a bit exhausted.
Maybe I should just focus on letting this LE go down in it’s own time and then raise all shields like Marcia and run for the hills if someone glimmers?
Am I capable of that? Pathetically, I don’t know.
But maybe that’s where all the resolve should go.
I feel I mixed my metaphors a bit wildly, what with beasts, shields and hills😅
Mila
Ha. Well, I started on that metaphor because I rather like the idea of seeing limerence and a LO as different entities.
Yes, my LE has been for the same LO since late 2019. It has consumed me. I am much older than you and I won’t bore you by repeating my convoluted history.
Your final paragraph sounds like a plan because that’s the way I am now looking at things. I don’t feel that confident about it though and I wish I knew all the answers.
Frederico,
I didn’t have that glass of wine in the end, because there was no wine in the house🙄
How would you know that you are much older?
2019 doesn’t sound that far away for me, by the way.
I also start to make the difference between limerence and the different persons this „beast“ attached itself to.
I‘m also not that confident about how to approach it. To kill it seems such an time- and energy- wasting effort and maybe without success.
Maybe just let it sleep once it sleeps in my current LE (I‘m waiting for it)and hit it over the head each time it stirs.
@Mila @federico
I read your comments with interest on how long your LEs lasted – 3+ years you both said? Mine has been going even longer than that, although it has only been at thermonuclear strength (another metaphor :)) over the past 1.5 years. It shows no sign of abating and is probably getting worse, if anything.
This is my first rodeo. I haven’t previously had an LE/LO, probably because there were never any barriers before – each time the issue arose, I was able to explore the glimmer, which either worked out (my current SO), or didn’t. Something else that I seem to share with you Mila.
When I can manage it, concentrating hard on reducing rumination / reverie seems to provide some relief. Distraction doesn’t work for me unless it was something spectacular (and even then I would usually find a way to relate it back to my LO). Distraction only seems to work after I have first reduced the rumination/ reverie.
I hope you are having a better day today.
Bewitched
Yes, three years plus for me. I wonder what may be feeding your limerence.
I agree of course that reducing reverie, and then rumination, is important, especially on waking.
After a glass of wine tonight, I am still thinking that we need somehow to be stronger with our resolve. It can be tough.
@federico, its mutual, so that is feeding it right now.
What originally started it off was one of the most stressful periods of my life (a combination of things, though, importantly not my SO – who has always been wonderful).
I do agree that exploring the why of an LE is useful especially if there are a series of LEs without gaps, like Mila described.
I hope that waking up to another thought (something other than LO) happens more regularly very soon. Less rumination during the previous day might help with that (easier said than done, of course).
Salud
Bewitched
Ah, Mutual, now I understand. I empathise, I really do. My, formerly affectionate LO went NC for what I have taken to be very good reasons. It hurts though.
I will think of you tomorrow morning when I banish thos3 intrusive thoughts.
Mila
🥂
I really shouldn’t be posting…..
Sounds like we’re in a similar boat. My latest LO has been happily feeding my LE.
@frederico
Now I think I need a glass of wine:)
@ Bewitched, I did manage to reply in the wrong place again, sorry, hope you find it…
@Limerent Emeritus,
I think that many of us seem like we are idling but we are newish to the blog, discovering pearls of wisdom with fresh eyes.
And many are living with a gigantic secret, not disclosed to LO, not disclosed to SO, haven’t spoken about this to another solitary soul.
Don’t be too hard on us, please. I don’t need tough love, the reason I am in this mess is because of tough life sh1t. And middle age.
Also, my LE is teaching me things about how I deal with adversity. Maybe I want to experience this as an opportunity for personal growth. I am not idling. That’s tough to hear.
Adam, thank you for those kind words. I’m flattered you remembered me. I’ve always tried to be myself here in this forum. Trying to bring all my failings with LO to the table. I still don’t understand why her. Why now? I’ve never felt such intensity for another human being. It’s crazy sick.
Having you here to chat with from time to time, share music with, listen to your stories and basically just identify with you completely, how this has all been a life altering experience, has helped me put things into better perspective about it. I like to think my presence and even my own failings have helped you back. Maybe others as well.
As much as our LE’s differ, I know you have always meant well and wished the best for me. These days I’m wallowing in a lot of self pity and I try not to bring too much of that sadness here, as I’m sure nobody really cares to know about it. I do believe that “Dude” is LOs SO, and I’m really trying to respect that boundary, considering he still works in my building. But it is hard to want to approach her anyway. Even if he wasn’t in the picture, I still highly doubt much would change. But I hear what you are saying. If anything now, I think I really kind of want/need to start with her by apologizing. Perhaps for being so, not owned-up in my efforts to reach her, as I know she knows I was going for it. Try to show her I’m ok and that freaking her out was never my intent. I just wanted it to be a perfect conversation, that eventually would lead to a happily-ever-after. (Or something close to that.) Never say never. Something may be possible. If only a friendship becomes of it, I will be content with that.
I will miss your presence here if you stay away. But hope it will not be for long. I’ve tried not to bring so much hopeful ruminating when I come here but it’s never that easy. For me at least. I try to gauge by seeing where others are in the blogs, by what I post. Sometimes the feelings just come out. I get it. This place can be a blessing and a curse. You though Adam have been a blessing to me.
Never forget that. To me and to many others. I hate good byes myself.
If this really is your last time, I’d like to send you off with a favorite poem of mine, that I like to give to my closest friends when I know they are going away. Possibly never seeing them again. I don’t have to bring it out all that often, but like to have it handy for occasions like this. It can also very much apply to LO’s..
Train of Life
By Jean d’Ormesson
At birth, we boarded the train of life and met our parents,
and we believed that they would always travel by our side.
However, at some station, our parents would step down from the train,
leaving us on life’s journey alone.
As time goes by, some significant people will board the train:
siblings, other children, friends, and even the love of our life.
Many will step down and leave a permanent vacuum.
Others will go so unnoticed that we won’t realize that they vacated their seats!
This train ride has been a mixture of joy, sorrow, fantasy,
expectations, hellos, goodbyes, and farewells.
A successful journey consists of having a good relationship with all passengers,
requiring that we give the best of ourselves.
The mystery that prevails is that we do not know at
which station we ourselves will step down.
Thus, we must try to travel along the track of life in the best possible way –
loving, forgiving, giving, and sharing.
When the time comes for us to step down and leave our seat empty –
we should leave behind beautiful memories for
those who continue to travel on the train of life. Let’s remember to thank our Creator
for giving us life to participate in this journey and to be grateful we have been given such a wonderful gift.
I thank God for you and I thank you for
being one of the passengers on my train.
Your Friend,
MJ. 😉
PS, Thank you also for giving LO a name..
Bewitched,
Sounds like your day was tough?
Sorry to hear that!
I‘m actually not sure what I should call a LE and what not. I always had some crush here and there. But I only count the episodes that caused me real pain and that lasted years. The limerence for my SO developed into love, I‘m not sure if I should count it…
The three LEs (after SO) that I count for myself, yes, they lasted about 3-4 years, I‘d say. But the second one ended because LO left work and town, I‘m not quite sure if I wouldn’t still be limerent if he would have stayed.
So I‘m not that sure of general time frames for LEs, I guess it depends on the context, how much time one actually spends with LO, if he lives nearby etc.
I don’t even know how to concentrate on reducing ruminations without distraction, you seem to know more than me:)
I hope you have a better day tomorrow!!
@Mila
I found your comment, thank you 🙂
About how to reduce ruminations without using distraction, which I dont find works for me, is fairly unsophisticated. When feeling sick of the same old subject (LO!), what I sometimes try is a fairly abrupt change of subject (mentally) from my default setting. Forcing myself to change the subject. That’s it 🙂
To be honest, I probably do then use distraction, as in mundane (to-do list), more fun (plot of a movie I just watched) thoughts to wash my brain with. Nothing too exciting 🙂
@Marcia
“I don’t think you need to be embarrassed. You’re working on the limerence; you’re making progress. “
That’s what I need to hear repeatedly, thank you. Our LE situations are quite similar in terms that we were tumbling alone in the darkness, not knowing what we were against. Without EA or PA but a weird, perceived “connection” that was neither (unrequited) love, nor substantial friendship, nor sincere colleagueship… we stuck and suffered those unnameable and bizarre highs and lows. My brain, nerves, eyes, ears, tongue, stomach … were all not listening to my logic or willpower during the peek of limerence. 😳
I berated myself so badly for not being strong enough (was indeed sick with the secrete lymphoma’s growth) to walk away and hoovered back for 6 times by a leading-on Sensor LO (mistaken and scolded him for being a Narc 😡) who “came back” repeatedly for a “friendship” between zero and 100%, which pull-n-push precisely feeds limerence! Only if I knew back then…
After coming to LwL and learning that neurochemical is playing a big role, I began to take it easier bit by bit on myself. I’m still working on the lingering guilt and shame, trying to dig out their other possible causes. My bigger battle is cptsd with more symptoms, such as OCD, abandonment melange, procrastination, social timidity, etc.
Snowphoenix,
“Our LE situations are quite similar in terms that we were tumbling alone in the darkness, not knowing what we were against. Without EA or PA but a weird, perceived “connection” that was neither (unrequited) love, nor substantial friendship, nor sincere colleagueship… ”
That’s a good description. I’d say it was another thing you hit upon–the push/pull dynamic. Some kind of push/pull flirtation that was feeding his narc tendencies.
“I berated myself so badly for not being strong enough (was indeed sick with the secrete lymphoma’s growth).”
I’m sorry you were ill. I hope you are better.
“My bigger battle is cptsd with more symptoms, such as OCD, abandonment melange, procrastination, social timidity, etc.”
I have some of those issues, also. The cptsd, the abandonment issues, OCD. I really like the Crappy Childhood Fairy. Some people don’t like her because she isn’t a trained clinician, but I don’t care. Religion, meditation, medication, psychotherapy, accupuncture, etc. Whatever it is that helps.
She has videos on cptsd and limerence. Pull her up on youtube. I found them to be very helpful. More so than pychotherapy. And a good portion of her work is free!
@Marcia,
I 2nd that recommendation. She is very good. Especially for not being trained. I love her videos..
@Marcia
Fortunately, I’m lymphoma free now but sill under regular monitoring. A terrible abandonment melange triggered my worst panic attack in 2019 that might have contributed to the development of thyroid lymphoma (from Hashimoto thyroiditis) ; of course, no doctors could be sure.
I’m regular Crappy Childhood Faire’s follower. 4 years ago, I found her and did a bit of daily practice. Back then she was not as confident, convincing, and consoling as now. During this summer even before finding LwL, I listened to her latest shows (sometimes twice) everyday, and particularly like her analysis (with the red fairy pen marking word by word, line by line) on specific cases, e.g limerence, through which, I also get to learn how a healthy dating would be in those cases. This time, I diligently did the daily practice and after just a couple of weeks, I found I had less and less fears and resentments to write about. Then, I become confident that I will eventually cure my cptsd on my own. It takes time, self-awareness, and practice. Comfortably socializing is the toughest for me.
Like you, I don’t care so much about “experts’” titles and trainings (my Ph.D psychoanalyst worsened my cptsd with her cruel methods). Empirical approaches is more important than theories to me. I’ll experiment whatever could possibly work for my system — no two people’s systems are alike. Depending on myself, through continuous learning and skills training at my own pace is the most effective and reliable way so far.
@MJ: I’m glad that you also like Crappy Childhood Mother, whose tough love and sincerely caring tone of speaking touch me. I also follow her advice, not to dwell on cptsd or limerence itself (the past or ongoing stories, symptoms, etc.), which could reinforce their symptoms and affects in my head. After all, I have cptsd, am NOT cptsd; I have had limerence, am NOT limerence.
Nowadays, I treat my symptoms without questioning why or how: just meditate (20-40 min. ) the first thing in the morning after opening my eyes, and the last before closing them at night. 1-2 shorter sessions in the middle of day if I feel my neurons/nerves are “agitated” for whatever reasons.
Hope you continue feeling better everyday!
@Marcia @ MJ
https://youtu.be/SKUpJfVf5Jg?si=tPfU5aK2sY4jqRql
Just came out one day ago about Limerence by Crappy Childhood Fairy.
Sammy,
I felt such a pain in my heart to see your text of September 6, where you write that ‘ the underlying limerence emotions (yours) seem to
stem from unmet early childhood needs.’ I can’t hardly begin to understand the pain as you start to describe your early childhood. The desire to be loved, comforted, understood etc. wow! That precious little boy wanted to be cherished by his mom and dad! Isn’t that’s what all little children want? I don’t understand how can one not be pulled to caress and hug and kiss and squeeze a little child! Such a bundle of joy! It’s unbelievable that some moms don’t get carried away to love and cherish their children. All that little children want is to be loved and be accepted. Some women should admit they’re not fit to handle children. Anybody can have a child, rearing it is a different story. It takes love and dedication, sleepless nights…
Me, I became a mother by choice. I wanted to be a wife and a mother and I wanted to stay home to care for my children. I gave up my career to be with my children, to love them and to enjoy them, watch over them. And I told my SO from the very beginning. We agreed. You see, not everyone is prepared to make sacrifices for their children and marriage. I took into consideration and reflected on the importance of being a good parent. I read books to get informed. I wanted my children to be healthy physically and mentally. The pediatrician used to call me ‘the worried mom.’ But he said that it was good I was like that because many mothers come for help a little too late. I was continuously at school, checking on them and the teachers. They liked that. My children attended private schools. The principal told me many parents don’t bother to come not even once! I gathered my children’s peers at home many times, they felt free to come home and tell me their problems. Many still ask my son about me when they talk.
I asked my son recently to forgive me for sometimes being harsh with him when small. He coyly said ‘and what will you give me for that?’ I said a’a Lot of kisses and hugs’. We have a great relationship!
These childhood traumas can complicate relationships when one becomes an adult. It can ruin your entire life if not dealt with properly and on time. I had a more or less beautiful childhood but my dad was absent for work most of the time. I needed his love and protection. It felt like a lack of commitment with the family. I don’t know if that’s what I was looking for with my lo, commitment …. Maybe it was.
My So fulfills all those needs.
I notice that Snow has some of the same problems, and perhaps many other limerents also. If only we were near and capable of hugging one another, cry over our afflictions together and cheering up each other, life would be more pleasant for all. Love is the most wanted and needed commodity right now for all of us. What can I say. Life is not fair, not fair at all. But we pick up all the pieces and start a new day full of illusions and hopes . Like Scarlet O’Hara said: “ tomorrow is another day! “(movie Gone with the wind)
Cheer up and hugs for you and Snow.
“These childhood traumas can complicate relationships when one becomes an adult.”
That’s putting it mildly…
“This adult child will go through life feeling dependent on verbal validation and confirmation from others. From infancy onward, he’s lacked vital supplies of affection and praise, from which he would have learned beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he was valuable and lovable~ and from that, gained the capacity to self-validate…
Since core trauma results from poor or inadequate parenting from the onset of life, this kind of wounding inhibits a child from feeling lovable or worthy of receiving care, which inevitably causes attachment struggles in adulthood…
For this child, Love means painful longing and yearning for that which cannot be gratified. Thus, this same type of emotional experience is intoxicating in his/her adult attachments, for their present anguish is literally identical to feelings that he/she experienced throughout childhood, which are now interpreted as ‘the real deal,’ or True Love…
Core-damaged children grow into needful adults, but they could fear that if they let themselves love somebody as intensely as they want to, that person will freak out, run off into the night, and abandon them. ..
Every core injured adult child has to live with the tormenting, inescapable question: “Am I good enough to be loved by you?”…
These childhood survival strategies remain intact throughout our adulthood, which can spawn serious clinical issues like Anxiety Disorder, obsessive-compulsive features, attachment difficulties, bad partner selection, addictions, personality disorder traits, etc.
Childhood experiences always predict the nature of adult relationships…
Sadly, the partner of an abandoned (adult) child cannot help but step on emotional land mines that have lain dormant, perhaps for decades….” – Shari Schreiber, https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
I love this article. I was posting a lot on another blog and from what Schreiber said in this and a few other articles, she read my posts. I know she knew the site owner.
“Since core trauma results from poor or inadequate parenting from the onset of life, this kind of wounding inhibits a child from feeling lovable or worthy of receiving care, which inevitably causes attachment struggles in adulthood…
For this child, Love means painful longing and yearning for that which cannot be gratified. Thus, this same type of emotional experience is intoxicating in his/her adult attachments, for their present anguish is literally identical to feelings that he/she experienced throughout childhood, which are now interpreted as ‘the real deal,’ or True Love…
Core-damaged children grow into needful adults, but they could fear that if they let themselves love somebody as intensely as they want to, that person will freak out, run off into the night, and abandon them….”
@Limerent Emeritus
I’m a case that literally fits the statement. Before coming to LwL, I recognized the “identical situation” I was in dealing with the current LO. On one hand, he “served” well as a parental-LO listening to my complaint about Mom and my cptsd (as a father, he has patient and empathetic ears). On the other hand, the leading-on Sensor in him often ignorantly and knowingly triggered abandonment melange in me. I saw it clearly and struggled to break free, but was hoovered back again and again.
Many others in my life also unknowingly triggered this deep childhood attachment wounds. That’s why I said to treat and heal cptsd is my bigger challenge; limerence is just a part of it.
“Childhood experiences always predict the nature of adult relationships…
Sadly, the partner of an abandoned (adult) child cannot help but step on emotional land mines that have lain dormant, perhaps for decades….” – Shari Schreiber, https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
I love this article. I was posting a lot on another blog and from what Schreiber said in this and a few other articles, she read my posts. I know she knew the site owner.”
@Limerent Emeritus.
I think that’s a pretty solid article. I enjoyed reading it…
I didn’t feel intrinsically loved as a child. I felt as if love had to be earned. However, the guidelines on how to earn said love weren’t exactly clear. 😆
I think I also had to repress the parts of me that didn’t meet with parental approval e.g. being cheeky. Strange how ineffective repression is as a means of moulding human behaviour long-term!! The repressed always returns! 😁
I didn’t grow up to be a caregiver/enabler/rescuer type. I think, for a time, I went with “social misfit”/outcast/rebel for an identity. However, as I grew even older, I realised that the “social misfit” tag is/was inauthentic for me, doesn’t describe my basic personality, and isn’t who I want to be anyway. 🙄
I seem to be a … very conservative personality with a cheeky side. Interesting! 🤣
Gosh LE, this is exactly what I’m starting to explore in my therapy.
C4C,
I wish you the best.
Confronting these issues can take you places you had no idea you’d be going to.
But, for me, it was well worth it.
Thank you LE. It’s scary but I hope it helps me to build an intrinsic sense of self, as Dr L says in another blog post.
“Some women should admit they’re not fit to handle children.“
@Nisor
That’s my Mom. She’ll never admit that she didn’t fit to be a mom! She did not even want to be a mom but took the “bit” with my paternal granny, who claimed Mom was too skinny or fragile (easily got sick) to ever produce any children for Dad (before their marriage). So Mom took the bit and I came to the world — she told me so herself. Then she aborted all the following 3 pregnancy by choice.
While ignoring and abusing me in all fronts at home, she basked in praises from the rest of the world: how fair she was to nurses, how caring she was to patients, how smart she was to save many lives by correct diagnosis (doc.), etc. At home, she’s always tired, upset, mad, impatient, ocd and extremely critical about everyone else and the entire world. All Dad’s graduate students were scared of her cold, careless face — she did not care about Dad’s professional life (prof.), despite his repeated protests. She is not just narcissistic —narc, but a true malignant narcissist — Narc!
Now, God damn it, I have to take care of the retired Mom— serving as her eyes, ears, and mouth because she doesn’t know any English. She’s very dependent in all logistic matters after being served superbly well by the saint Dad. I fought my head over toes in the past 5 years trying to stop her life-time habits of criticizing, sarcastically nagging or preaching, in vain. Sometimes, I just wanted to strike her with my fists, but I could not. I want to throw her to the street; but I could not!
By (sub)conscious comparisons, I “ran” to much pleasant, humane Sensor LO to complain thus reduce the pains of dealing with the long-faced Mom; my limerence pain was Much LESS than cptsd suffering from its walking origin. In the past year, the situation got a bit better — I simply cut off all unnecessary contact — not even New Year greeting or birthday wish to her! Hard to go NC with LO? Try NC with one’s own mother! 😡
You see, how many complicated factors have contributed and deepened my latest limerence. Life is indeed unfair! 😖
Hi Snow,
So sad to hear your childhood story and as a result your struggles with LE. I just wish you find the right therapist to deal with it all, receive some comfort and get healed. It’s heartbreaking for me as a mom to read your story for I have children and God knows how terrified I was of not doing a good job and have them suffer for anything.
I know I didn’t do a perfect job but I was aware at all times of my children’s needs. It was exhausting at times, and one can loose control
when overwhelmed. I got into parenting willingly and full aware of the enormity of the task, not quite… We’re dealing with tender fragile souls, it is scary to have those souls damaged! What a guilt I feel for even a spanking them when needed.
I don’t know what to say about your mom, but as you say she was a narc, it’s pretty hard if she even feels guilty for neglecting you. Perhaps she was overwhelmed by her work. Try and forgive her and honor her in spite of your hurt. It’s ok not to be close to her, if you don’t feel like it, or she reminds you of your tribulations , but holding a grudge only worsens your wound , I think.
I wish you were near me and sit down together and hug and cry a river over these issues, you need tons of love right now . Don’t hold in your feelings, be compassionate to yourself as you would be to a good friend. Cry if you must, you need to clear out your mind and soul , and crying does help a lot. You’re not alone. We care for you and your wellbeing. Lots of tight hugs for you. ❤️
@Nisor,
Thank you for your comforting words and advices.
Mom is a baked cake that can never be unbaked again, she never apologized for what she did to me even after I explained they were so hurtful and clearly wrong; she claimed that others moms in the same culture did the same things to their kids, which was not true. I remembered clearly that I wished several gfs’ moms could adopt me throughout childhood and youth. I cannot and will not forgive the unjustified cruelty any parent has done to their children, which would invalidate those children’s sufferings!
I’ve accepted that I can never change the past but improve the current me. So my focus is on how to deal with life-time affects that cptsd casted on my system since early childhood. Because her presence somehow always caused (un)reasonable irritability in me and often made me lose temper quickly, (my protective brain repressed/lost some childhood memories due to extremely fearful or paining events; but my nerves seem to have kept a score), the best thing to do is go LC with Mom. It’s has been effective in the past full-year — Out of sight, out of mind! (She lives 4 blocks away from me)
I I know crying is an incredible way to release stress and deep grief, but I was mocked and scolded by both Mom and Dad for “weakling’s tears” since young. So my tears do not come easily even when I call for them earnestly. I can cry hard if watch a sad movie or read sad news about suffering children…. In another world, I could sympathize or empathize with others much easier than with myself — another feature of cptsd.
You sound such a loving mother, and I indeed wish we could live close by. Next time when I go to Europe again, I’ll visit you to have a hearty chat and cry!
“Me, I became a mother by choice. I wanted to be a wife and a mother and I wanted to stay home to care for my children. I gave up my career to be with my children, to love them and to enjoy them, watch over them.”
@Nisor.
Thank you for your very kind words.
I think what happened with my mother was that she was raised by a narcissistic mother herself, so there’s multiple generations of questionable parenting practices at work, and bad habits get passed down.
For example, my grandmother often told my mother (an attention-hungry little girl) to “go to room and occupy self”. (Or words to that effect). And my mother, without realising it, probably adopted the same approach with me when she felt stressed. But my mother is/was narcissistic, so she couldn’t admit she felt stressed or overwhelmed, because that would be owning up to imperfection, and narcissists can’t really deal with imperfection. (If narcissists admit they’re imperfect, they instantly cease to be narcissists, and join the ranks of ordinary humanity! To be a mere mortal on the same level as everyone else is a narcissist’s worst nightmare! Narcissists are the self-appointed aristocrats of the human race). 🤣
Narcissists have a unique personality structure called a “false self” from which they live and operate, and the whole point of this false self is to elicit praise and to deflect criticism. The false self is all about self-protection. So narcissists act very similarly to young children themselves ironically, and have many of the same needs. The narcissist is often so preocupied with maintaining the false self they have no energy left over to love and/or bond with other people.
As an unusually sensitive little boy I did carry around a lot of guilt and shame for some reason – way more guilt and shame than was warranted by any real misdemeanours I committed. Perhaps that guilt and shame was reinforced by misapplied religious teachings? I dunno. I feel one or both parents could have lightened that burden of guilt/shame, but ultimately neither of them did…
“Some women should admit they’re not fit to handle children.”
I feel that saying some women aren’t fit to handle children is a little harsh, even if there is a grain of truth in the statement. I don’t want to turn this into the Let’s-blame-Mummy-for-Everything thread. But I think it’s fair to say that … some parents of both sexes are UNDERPREPARED for the demands of parenthood, or are unaware of the enormity of some young children’s emotional needs. 😉
My mother did have a positive effect on my life in some ways. She introduced me to totally wholesome interests such as gardening. I probably inherited my language skills from her, and my interest in reading. She pushed me to do well in school, and the pushing worked for the first ten years of my formal education. She may have been the brains behind some of the nice trips we took as a family.
“Cheer up and hugs for you and Snow.”
Thank you. Much appreciated. 😛
Sammy, Snow, Limerent Emeritus,
Good morning.
I wish we also had a therapist, clinician, or psychologist in the group to help with the input of these childhood traumas, when they arise in the blog. We thank Dr. L for the wonderful work he’s doing and helping us with his kindness.
This is a universal problem, child abuse. It breaks my heart to hear countless stories about childhood traumas. It’s unacceptable! I’m so mad about it! I’m besides myself!
Parenting is the most difficult job there is, very serious business, it’s a tender precious soul you’re dealing with, and there’s no schooling for it. It’s government negligence for not teaching it in schools and universities while students are young and might think twice before having children.
A license for parenting should be required before two people get married, you get a license to drive a car, don’t you? Eh?
A psychological test should be taken before having children to see if the couple is fit to be parents. (If only that could be possible)
There should be laws that parents (mom or dad taking care of child) would take off at least five years from job to rear children to ensure a healthy bond with them; have it supervised by competent social workers, therapist etc (Not too many would like this, but it’s like having the cake and eating it too?) Either you work or have children. Bringing up a child is time consuming, I don’t know where the mothers who work find the time to care for their child properly.
If couples don’t have the economic means to bring up a child properly, they should then wait till the time they can “afford “ a kid. Too many children dying of hunger, abuse, enslaved around the world because of irresponsible parents.
It would cost the government less money if they implemented some schooling, and laws to protect children from careless parenting than trying to fix it later with psychological treatments, drugs, asylums , and jailing , and avoid so much suffering.
I’m just ranting here. Because we’re dealing with precious , fragile, tender lives here! No joke!
It isn’t the movies or Hollywood where you can just change the script at a pen’s stroke, if you don’t like the ending. It’s irreversible! There are traumas carried on from generation to generation!
And it won’t be stopped until somebody does something about it.
I’m just so mad at the abuse of children. Don’t think moms have it easy, they need help, I’m not kidding! Children rearing is a 24/7 job, no salary , no vacations either.
Every pregnant woman should take a course on parenting , by law… and offered the help needed to bring up a healthy child in all its senses.
Wishing the best to all. 🤗
I agree that there should be some form of education around parenting, however it would be a lifelong lesson wouldn’t it? It changes and is so vastly different from one child to the next, I don’t think you could fit it in a handbook!
I don’t agree that you should work or have children, I think that’s completely unrealistic and how, for example, does that teach a girl that she can have a career at all? If you have that maternal pull, there isn’t a lot you can do to deny it, but you will have ambitious desires too, that is normal. I’m not sure it’s always healthy for the parent, to be at home all day with the kids, or the child for that matter. Most mums I know need adult conversation and interaction, and hobbies at least, if not a job, in order for their brains not to atrophy!
Trauma is of course, carried through families, but by recognising that, it can be changed. Still an effect of the trauma, but with a more positive outcome.
@Problem Child
I agree on the „work OR have children“.
A child needs happy parents, and many parents love their job and need the stimulation/responsibility/creative outlet to be happy. I think parents are role models for their kids and it‘s good for children to see you living your life and not sacrificing it all for them (what a burden of responsibility for kids, especially when it makes you unhappy).
Mila, Sammy
Your post of September 8, (no reply button),
Mila thinks limerence ‘ seems to lose its sting when you get older”.
Sammy: “Some people experience limerence for the first time in old age.”
Aww, I’m a living case of limerence at old age, it’s my first limerence episode, no hormone problems, past that menopause epoch long time ago; it just happened!!! That’s why I came to LwL, I was hitting the internet trying to find out what the heck was going on with me. Going crazy craving for Lo!!! Why me, why at this age? Why 49 years later NC, this person (ex boyfriend) is disturbing my peaceful harmonious world? I’m a grandma for heavens sake!!!
You can imagine I’m shocked , and sad, and scared, and don’t know when this will pass. He’s very much alive in my mind. I’m
living three lives at once, the past with lo, the present with SO, and the sting of limerence with lo in the present. Communicated with lo twice last year after 49 yeas of NC, but can’t communicate anymore for he has a wife and she seems to be in charge of his phone… she has an answering recording with her voice now. He’s happy to talk to me though. But it’s too painful, so it’s better to leave it at NC and see if it fades away on its own. I’m trying, I’m trying…
Have a great weekend you all.🌹
“I’m a grandma for heavens sake!!! You can imagine I’m shocked, and sad, and scared, and don’t know when this will pass. He’s very much alive in my mind. I’m
living three lives at once, the past with lo, the present with SO, and the sting of limerence with lo in the present.”
@Nisor.
Wow! That’s such an interesting situation to be in. It does suggest that limerence is “mental activity” more than simply the need to pass on genes. I wonder if your mind is trying to reconcile all the different eras in your life, and make peace with any regrets?
There was an older lady posting on LwL a few years ago. I think her name was Rita, and she stopped posting. I think she became attached in her mind to a beautiful tour guide (male in his 20s) who she and her husband met while travelling overseas.
It is a little bit scary – sort of the intensity of the attachment that forms. But it also seems to be taking place all inside one’s head, so it’s not as real as it often feels.
@Nisor,
It scares the hell out of me that I could possibly be in an LE (this LE) in 30+ years. 49 years of NC. Thats just amazing and interesting all at the same time. While I’d like not to be, thoughts of LO just make me feel all
warm and fuzzy on the inside. Like a warm blanket on a cold night.
Oh limerence is so pathetic and sad..
But you have a good weekend too..
Snow,
You made me smile when you say ‘mom is a baked cake, cannot be unbaked…’. Let’s say she is a burned cake. Discard the thoughts of her as a burned cake, no remedy. Cannot undue what she did. I hear you! What’s done is done, now let’s focus on yourself and how you can progress in life by getting over the cptds as much as possible.
It seems in childhood you must’ve been a bystander, always observing but not capable of acting or reacting for fear of punishment, and the confusion these issues creates in the mind of a child is so grave! No wonder you’re overwhelmed with emotions in your internal world, and wondering what this all means.
It’s very wise of you accepting you can never change the past but improve the current you . Congratulations, that’s a step forward. You keep on working on that. A little step at a time…
We can never change the past but we can surely change the future. And from here on to victory! A new self, secure and in harmony with yourself and the whole world.
Ps, I was not always a great mom. I was cranky at times and overwhelmed and sometimes irrational, tired ; had too much in my plate that I could handle alone. But most of the time I tried to make up at bedtime to explain to them and ask for understanding and forgiveness.
See you in Europe next time you come!
Always be compassionate to yourself.(it’s not self pity) Rub and caress your arms and cheeks, your upper legs as if you were that little child being caressed by a loving hand, and receive that love you’re yearning for.
Sending you hugs to last a whole week!
@Sammy, @Nisor
It overwhelms me to find the right reply button…
Gosh, I had this hope of being this mellowed wise person after menopause, no immature desires eating away at me, and now you destroyed this beautiful illusion:)
Well!
I was prone to limerent behavior here and there, but real limerence actually struck shortly before 40.
I think you are on to something when you say your mind/mating drive, whatever, was looking for an LO to attach itself to. Could be the same with me. Also, I‘m working out at the moment what might be lacking in my life that I have to have this limerent stuff.
Also, Sammy, I appreciate that you want to take the guilty thoughts away from me, it’s sweet of you, but I think they are rather healthy:)
and I think the knowledge that I‘m getting selfish when limerent kind of helps me fighting the limerence.
I think you are all really kind and helpful people and just want to say Thank You!
Mila, sorry if I ‘destroyed your beautiful illusions’ of a free limerence old age, ha. It is not in our hands to decide when the beast will attack…
Sammy:
“I wonder if your mind is trying to reconcile all three different eras in your life, and make peace with any regrets.”
Making peace with my regrets, that’s exactly what it is! And trying to reconcile the three eras…
I didn’t handle the breakup of that relationship right, was very naive and immature ; thought I was done with it, forgot about him for all those years! Now the memories have come back to torture me, but they’re beautiful memories. I had a dream with him last year that’s how limerence started! In a dream! Unbelievable! LwL/dreams is where I tell how it all started. I thought I was going insane until I found LwL ; then I realized this fits exactly with what’s happening to me: limerence!
Thanks to DrL and the commenters for all the help one can get from this blog.
Have a beautiful weekend.
Nisor, I read here sometimes but hardly ever post (too public for me!) but I’m active in the private LWL-related forum at https://limerenceforums.com
I just wanted to tell you that your story sounds almost exactly like mine! Feel free to join the private forum if you’d like to talk, I’ll keep an eye out for you.
Hi AnonFP,
Can you advise how the forum works. Do you mean the fact you have to sign-in with email details means less amount of people voyeuring that maybe aren’t understanding /part of our ‘ tribe’ ? The concern to me is the word ‘Sign-up’ and all of what that normally brings. What reassurance is there on data protection etc signing up with email address ? I appreciate and trust Dr L with my email address. He let’s people post directly here with no sign-up. there is no monitoring before post appearances ( which potentially is dangerous but most people posting seem very responsible)
Thanks
PS i shouldn’t be posting at all . Ha ha !
Hi Anonymous Forum person,
I thank you very much for the invitation to join Limerent Forum.
I was very hesitant to even join this blog, but as I read along, the commenters private stories and Dr Ls, I had a gut feeling he’s a responsible, decent, kind and noble man, who will not let us down with our privacy here.
My story is too long and I suppose I’d be better off writing a book instead of writing a piece of it here and there, ha. If I didn’t have SO home all the time, you bet I’d have done that writing, eh.
Come and visit us here, we will appreciate it, I’d love to hear the similarities of your story and mine . Just give me a hint…
All best wishes.💪🏽
“Making peace with my regrets, that’s exactly what it is! And trying to reconcile the three eras…
I didn’t handle the breakup of that relationship right, was very naive and immature ; thought I was done with it, forgot about him for all those years! Now the memories have come back to torture me, but they’re beautiful memories. I had a dream with him last year that’s how limerence started! In a dream! Unbelievable! LwL/dreams is where I tell how it all started. I thought I was going insane until I found LwL ; then I realized this fits exactly with what’s happening to me: limerence!”
@Nisor.
Ah, that’s very moving and very sad. Dreams have played a role in my limerence, too. I think it might be very common for people to dream about their LOs, and then wake up with either feelings of ecstasy or feelings of intense sadness. It’s like one’s brain is carrying on the obsession even as one sleeps, because of the way limerence invades human consciousness.
Hopefully, LwL provides you with some answers regarding what you’re experiencing. Personally, I think we’re searching for some lost part of ourselves, and our LO conveniently represents that lost part. 😉
‘I think we’re searching for some lost part of ourselves, and our LO conveniently represents that lost part. “ @Sammy
I’m still not sure if we ‘re searching for some lost part of ourselves, or some parts we did not properly acquire from our terribly deficient—bond with our parents when little. The former would fits the “twin flame” theory; in the latter LO seems to give us something we so missed in our deprived childhood ors something we imagined as ideal parental care.
In my case, after the glimmer set in and Dad expectedly passed away, LO unknowingly “served” as a surrogate parent I seemed to have searched in my entire life until 4 years later when the “cruel” reality showed me it was not the case. But this sense of having obtained a “savior” LO could be just a limerence illusion for the first 4 years of my LE.
Then, your sense — “LO conveniently represents that lost part” of ourselves took a stronger hold in my mind in the next 2 years phrase, since I could intuitively predict a lot of LO’s behavior correctly w/ knowing how, just like I strongly felt I knew this person previously when I first set my eyes on him for 5 seconds. Still, I don’t believe “twin flame” theory, and LO and I do not seem to share many compatibilities.
Now after two months in LwL with much more self-awareness in my body and mind, dopamine high and low still intermittently kick in with LC. Some days I had to run into my cocktail meditation 4-5 times a day or do it longer time each session (when my focus was distracted), just to curb down lingering rumination, suspicion, jealousy, mourning, and occasionally terrible melancholy….
The good news is that my meditation is serving as my big savior — flattens those unwanted emotions; they’re not gone, just not so acute or painful. After each session, if not giddiness, I got at least peace in my chest and clearer mind in head. I have few resentments to work with but still some fears, a deep fear of losing the Phantom (already separated from LO) or losing it all…
How do we find (or better create) our “lost part” and put it rightfully in our brain, where LO used to occupy?
I guess a goal of my purposeful living still has not settled in me… I guess I’m in a grief stage although my limerence is not totally over yet…
Some DrL’s blog articles have enlightened me with the psychological angles (to look at some stubborn limerent mind and behaviors), which I had never thought of before and thus greatly reduced some of my resentments and fears. To treat and “cure” limerence, one really needs to incorporate actions and thinking simultaneously, and the latter is often more powerful, to me.
@Snowphoenix.
“I’m still not sure if we ‘re searching for some lost part of ourselves, or some parts we did not properly acquire from our terribly deficient—bond with our parents when little. The former would fits the “twin flame” theory; in the latter LO seems to give us something we so missed in our deprived childhood ors something we imagined as ideal parental care.”
I think an LO represent some lost part of ourselves because of how strongly we resonate with them emotionally. However, I don’t subscribe to Twin Flame theory. I don’t think one can “acquire” some missing part of oneself by engaging in a given relationship because all the “good stuff” still belongs to the other person! 😆
“How do we find (or better create) our “lost part” and put it rightfully in our brain, where LO used to occupy?”
The approach I’ve taken is to write a list of all the things in life I feel too anxious to do, and then do those things over and over until the anxiety starts to fade. So really I’m just practising a form of exposure therapy or self-supervised Cognitive Behavioural Theory. E.g. if I’m too scared to use public transport, I will make a point of using public transport as often as possible until my fears dissipate. 😉
“I think an LO represent some lost part of ourselves because of how strongly we resonate with them emotionally. However, I don’t subscribe to Twin Flame theory. I don’t think one can “acquire” some missing part of oneself by engaging in a given relationship because all the “good stuff” still belongs to the other person! 😆”
@Sammy
Now you convince me more of your point, although I still suspect that our emotional resonance could also be a part of our fantasy, especially when our LO is not interested in us or just does emotionally resonate the same way as we do. Your stand also makes sense why it’s so painful to let LO go when it’s not working out or detrimental to us— we watch “a part” of what we are missing is “leaving” us, although it has never truly belonged to us even when we’re engaged with LO in a realistic or perceived level.
You’re absolutely right that we can not acquire good or bad stuff from others, anything new has to be generated or created within. But LO has manifested to us what we had vaguely sensed missing beforehand — I can list some of good qualities of each LO, which I have admired and which I believe I could have cultivated if without those terrible cptsd incidents and their lingering affects.
“The approach I’ve taken is to write a list of all the things in life I feel too anxious to do, and then do those things over and over until the anxiety starts to fade. So really I’m just practising a form of exposure therapy or self-supervised Cognitive Behavioural Theory.”
I know your approach works, which I also practiced with turning off nightlight during sleep. Due to a horrible incident, I was always afraid of darkness and dreadful to wake up in the middle of night alone…. Now, I’m fine with light off, getting up, or staying awake in darkness for a couple of hours, ruminating or meditating. The haunting night sky is no longer going to fall down on my head, and nowhere else is better or more of a center than my own comfy bed.
My biggest fear, more than anxiety, is still that abandonment melange, which could be triggered daily by so many scenes or incidents so ordinary to others. With the increased cptsd awareness, it gets better; however, I’m still running away from those “abandoning” scenes instead of staying with them, such as big empty classroom or office, or leave a place as last person, or go to a quiet park or beach…. I need to see people and dogs around, although they’re strangers.
@Snowphoenix.
“… although I still suspect that our emotional resonance could also be a part of our fantasy, especially when our LO is not interested in us or just does emotionally resonate the same way as we do.”
This makes a lot of sense to me! 😛
“My biggest fear, more than anxiety, is still that abandonment melange, which could be triggered daily by so many scenes or incidents so ordinary to others.”
I don’t think I fear abandonment. To me, the most painful thing I’ve ever experienced in life is actually “limerence limbo” – the pain of being attached to someone who seems to have one foot in and one foot out of the “relationship” at all times.
I think extreme oversensitivity to emotional pain is mainly what motivates me to try and leave limerence in the past, and replace it with “affectionate bonding”. I obviously don’t want to feel pain. Nobody does. And I don’t think many LOs really want to be blamed for someone else’s pain i.e. pain generated through the limerent’s emotional dependency on LO’s real and/or perceived behaviour. 😉
I know a young woman once. She wasn’t necessarily limerent for me, but there seemed to be some budding attachment forming on her side, and she was reacting emotionally in quite a visible way to any “cues” she believed she was getting from me. So I can say from firsthand experience, one can feel a little uncomfortable being scrutinised so intently by another.
If the “LO” likes the limerent but isn’t “in love” with the limerent, the LO might wonder why can’t the limerent take said liking at face value? I.e. why is the limerent always looking for deeper meaning in pleasant gestures that aren’t meant to convey deeper meaning? 😉
‘I think we’re searching for some lost part of ourselves, and our LO conveniently represents that lost part. “
It’s probably why limerence happens for a lot of us mid life. We are in the midst of reevaluating our life and looking to the past and seeing how different life went than what we thought it would when we were young and idealistic. I still don’t have that Cadillac DeVille I always wanted yet.
Instead of turning to our partner (if we have one) and trying to make mutual plans for the future to help us both reach goals in life we inadvertently look to another tantalizing person to live our missed opportunities vicariously through. Not fair to everyone involved honestly. Even ourselves.
“It’s probably why limerence happens for a lot of us mid life. We are in the midst of reevaluating our life and looking to the past and seeing how different life went than what we thought it would when we were young and idealistic.”
Having a younger LO keeps me hopeful I can and will stay young myself. Even though I know it realistically isn’t possible. LO is 28. Inside I still feel like I’m 28. But looking in that mirror sometimes and seeing 52 years in front of me really kinda sucks..
MJ
Yeah you are in a unique position with limerence that most of us aren’t in that you are not already in a committed relationship. So your LO is available in that until she tells you “no” you have a chance at a relationship together.
And don’t be too hard on yourself with your age difference. I know it is not as common in newer generations but I know a lot of Boomer couples that had large age gaps, including both my grandparents, that made it work. Don’t loose an opportunity because of age, at least. Most of the woman I was interested in my 20’s were much older than me, and I never took the chance because I didn’t have the courage. I’d be very happy to pop in here and find out you at least took the chance and knew one way or another. Uncertainty is a killer.
“To me, the most painful thing I’ve ever experienced in life is actually “limerence limbo” – the pain of being attached to someone who seems to have one foot in and one foot out of the “relationship” at all times.”
@Sammy
in the earlier years, Limerence Limbo did not affected me as much as perceived abandonment acts from LO — treated as a fatherly figure. After 4 years when he was pulling his one foot out (with lies and rare temper), limerence limbo began to bring me more intrusive thoughts, rumination, anxiety, anger and poor sleeps, and even made me feel like walking around and talking in surreal!
When I was an LO, I never left one foot in the dynamic so possibly causing other side’s pining — I could not stand “human pets” of any kind. Unaware of limerent Sensor’s existence before LwL, LO #7’s pulling and pushing made my mind tumbling all over places, guessing and questioning everything he said or did, responded or reacted — it’s such a mental torture! After suspecting him as a narc who strings others along with pleasant manners and charming untruths to extract and uphold their affection to fuel his own narcissistic needs, I became furious and even verbally attacked, probably just covering up the underneath unspeakable pains!
“And I don’t think many LOs really want to be blamed for someone else’s pain i.e. pain generated through the limerent’s emotional dependency on LO’s real and/or perceived behaviour. 😉”
Thank you for reminding me a blameless LO’s perspective, which was quite understandable — the reason I never gave out any mixed messages, (sub)consciously controlling or messing others’ mind and emotions — it’s one of cruelest things human beings sometimes do to others. However, since I was in unrecognized limerence with the altered state of mind, I was not blameless — probably perceived and incorrectly interpreted the way too many desired “cues” from a Sensor LO — he’s just not that “innocent”!
“So I can say from firsthand experience, one can feel a little uncomfortable being scrutinised so intently by another.”
I can picture and understand such discomfort, although I had never got to that point in the past.
“If the “LO” likes the limerent but isn’t “in love” with the limerent, the LO might wonder why can’t the limerent take said liking at face value? I.e. why is the limerent always looking for deeper meaning in pleasant gestures that aren’t meant to convey deeper meaning? 😉”
You just nailed another point here again, which, looking back now, accurately captured some truth of my case — my limerent mind refused to believe LO’s charming, superficial words, alternating between straightforward and curved-hints, which LO’s actions almost always contradicted later. Now, I’ll make a mantra out of what you just wisely pointed out here: take words for their face value and force the limerent mind not to wonder between lines.
Sammy, Snow, Adam,
“I think we’re searching for some lost part of ourselves, and our LO conveniently represents that lost part.”
Very interesting conversation going on in here!
In my case, I was not looking for a lost part. It was LO who sought me out and pursued me, of course I let him.. I was at my finest shape emotionally and physically. I felt complete, wholesome and happy as anyone could be, when LO showed up. The way he used to gaze into my eyes, it felt he was seeking to drink my soul…
So I feel he robbed part of my soul and now I want to gain it back. Isn’t it fair I want it back? He stole from me! He also stole my peace of mind. Like a vampire he sucked the life out of me! After all, I let him steal from me the most precious feelings I had ever had… or did I surrender them to him voluntarily??? Yes! And I treasure what I stole from
him…
We will never know, and that’s what’s eating us up. Memories, sweet , memories, that’s all there’s left. And we dream on…
Have a great weekend.💪🏽
@Nisor.
“In my case, I was not looking for a lost part. It was LO who sought me out and pursued me, of course I let him.. I was at my finest shape emotionally and physically. I felt complete, wholesome and happy as anyone could be, when LO showed up. The way he used to gaze into my eyes, it felt he was seeking to drink my soul…”
Thank you for sharing, Nisor. I think hearing many different points of view helps create a clearer picture of what may or may not be going on in limerence.
Your story seems to suggest that limerence can happen to someone who is self-assured and quite content with who they are. It seems to be maybe the lure of a too-good-to-be-true romance that ultimately proves destabilising and not any pre-existing problems or issues?
“So I feel he robbed part of my soul and now I want to gain it back. Isn’t it fair I want it back? He stole from me! He also stole my peace of mind. Like a vampire he sucked the life out of me! After all, I let him steal from me the most precious feelings I had ever had… or did I surrender them to him voluntarily??? Yes! And I treasure what I stole from him…”
That is very interesting. I didn’t feel as if my LO stole my soul. I felt as if LO was my soul. He embodied some part of me that I disowned when young and needed to reclaim. I didn’t really feel as if he took anything from me. He just vaguely reminded me of something.
“Gosh, I had this hope of being this mellowed wise person after menopause, no immature desires eating away at me, and now you destroyed this beautiful illusion:)
Well!
I was prone to limerent behavior here and there, but real limerence actually struck shortly before 40.”
@Mila.
I think, for me, “real limerence” struck for the first time and maybe for the only time just as I was about to turn 16. Although there were some melancholy thoughts about the person on and off prior to that. I define “real limerence” as becoming so obsessed with one person – or, more accurately, with the idea of one person – that one stops caring about one’s own life and goals and prior relationships, etc. One devalues platonic friendships, family, hobbies, etc. One is just completely swept away by this blissful dream that revolves around LO.
Now, I’m 40 years old, and the “high waters of limerence” have receded somewhat. Why now am I escaping limerence with relative ease? I dunno. I like to joke that I’m experiencing “early male menopause”, which is freeing me from the horrible burden of lust, even though male menopause isn’t something that has been scientifically verified. (Males do experience drops in testosterone with every passing decade they live, but the resulting changes are less dramatic than the hormonal changes females go through throughout the lifespan). 🤔
My LO seemed to be good at everything – academics, sports, music. A real Renaissance man. He oozed confidence – some would say arrogance. And he always looked a million bucks on top on that. So it’s easy to understand why people might envy him or look up to him or find him attractive (and/or repulsive due to the arrogance). It’s a little bit harder to understand why I become obsessed with the idea of him. I mean, why not admiration without obsession? Wouldn’t that be a healthier response overall? Why not a passing fancy? 😆
So, to me, limerence seems to be an inborn biological drive that spins out of control. It definitely seems related to mating and maybe reproduction. Though obviously I couldn’t reproduce with my LO, rendering the traditionally-understood concept of mating redundant. Honestly, since I’m not a biological female, my physiological response to this male e.g. sweating, blushing, shaking, racing heart, feeling ridiculously self-conscious, seem unwarranted and worthy of the harshest mockery. I’m embarrassed I was so moved by this person…
“Also, Sammy, I appreciate that you want to take the guilty thoughts away from me, it’s sweet of you, but I think they are rather healthy:)”
If guilty thoughts, or healthy shame, keep a limerent from doing the wrong thing, then I think that’s cool. I’m thinking more along the lines that the suffering limerents sometimes endure – good limerents, who haven’t crossed any boundaries, etc, and don’t wish to – is disproportionate to the harm done. Basically, I think limerents sometimes hurt themselves more than they hurt others. Although I guess neglecting one’s other relationships is hurtful. 😉
Hi All
Apologies for this, but just had a technical failure on the blog and have lost any comments posted in the last 3 hours or so.
Thank goodness for backups, but sorry for the loss of wisdom 🙂
As far as I can see, nothing is lost. Which means I spend much too much time on this site again.
Ah, so now I know what the coffeehouse is for!
I never feel I’m my true self, I’m not even sure who it is. I’m different with various people, and a complete gibbering mess around LO. I think we have come to an end, at least on his part. He has begun ignoring me unless, it seems, he has to engage. It hurts but is probably for the best. I just want this stage to end. I want to go back to being happy with SO, I was in a good place before this started, I actually hate LO for that, despite it hardly being his fault!
Is anyone awake? I have stayed away from the chat because it seemed to make things worse, but I really need a lifeline, it is eating me up. The futility of it! I am trying to focus on other pursuits but everything comes back to him – if I decide to improve an area of my life I realise it’s for him, I want him to notice. Was he ever interested or have I been fooling myself the whole time. Who knows or cares? Only me in this hole.
Hi Problem Child,
sorry that you are at this dark stage now. Maybe it’s necessary so you can get up into the light again.
Don’t put yourself down. Everybody is different around different people, you adjust to them, it means you are sensitive and want them to feel good, maybe too much.
Also I think it’s ok to hate LO a bit even if it‘s „unfair“. He caused you pain and if it helps you to see that he‘s an ordinary and not THAT great person, that he shouldn’t have that power over anybody, then negative feelings might help you push him away and get him down from his pedestal in your thoughts.
Thank you Mila,
Yes I think it’s ok to hate him a bit too, and natural, but I keep clinging on and if I give in to the hate, it could turn nasty, I can be very nasty when I start to devalue someone. There are 3 quite insignificant things or incidences I particularly dislike about him, so I’m trying to keep thinking about those!
C for Cat, it’s like grief almost, the losing of him is close to intolerable, but must be endured as in the words you’ve posted. I suppose it means we’re moving on, I hope for enlightenment soon, and for you too!
Thank you for the hugs Nisor, no there is no pain like unrequited love (lust?) the rejection is so hard. I don’t feel there is anyone I trust enough to divulge these thoughts to, it is too big a secret to bear. I have considered telling him, but that I don’t want anything from him, and am just happy to have in in my life (which is a half lie but I think it might help to clear the air).
Problem Child,
Don’t do it, or don’t do it right now in the state you are in! I mean to disclose.
Especially when you are not 100% behind your words. I mean it’s not true at the moment that you don’t want anything from him and are just happy to have him in your life, is it?
If he’s not completely insensitive he will sense that it’s not true and it will creep him out.
Wait until you are clearer in your own head. I understand the wish for release and to clear the air, but it won’t clear the air, I’m quite sure of it without knowing anything about your story.
Sorry to be so forward, but disclosure is a bomb, you should think twice before you take that step.
This is such wise advice Mila, I hadn’t thought of that. It probably would come off as insincere at best and yes, possibly creepy at worst! Thank you, I will keep in there, fighting the good fight!
In my experiences, a true unrequited love does not cause pain, but requested lust DOES.
@PC
I second Mila, do not disclose anything now. Wait until your limerence is reduced sharply in intensity BY YOURSELF w/ LwL’s assistance, then make a decision with your cooler head. I was in your shoes several times, and knew well how unstable our limerence mind and emotions could be at this stage.
Before coming LwL, I tried several LC and NC with my heated head (due to disappointment, jealousy, anger, panic attacks, etc) but without clear mind or plan to where I would be heading afterwards. Then, soon or later, I would be hoovered back by LO’s charms and superficial apologies. Then, limerence-go-round again and again…
You’ll get over this toughest time, wish you the best…
Typo: an unrequited lust DOES. It causes primal and instinctual pains…
@Problem Child,
I know the need to unburden oneself, especially when things get awkward, one feels inhibited and tongue-tied or even aggressive with LO and one wants to explain why, and also the thought of finally disclosing has something liberating about it.
But me personally, when I did that once, did the math without LO, didn’t take into account that his reaction would be unpredictable. I envisioned saying my thing, him reacting something like „ah, that’s how you feel“, in the best case disclosing that he feels the same, but at least being understanding and showing respect etc.
But he felt awkward, didn’t understand all I said and gave me some answer like „well, I don’t understand what you want me to say/do now“ , not very loving and understanding, and certainly not giving me peace.
I felt angry and humiliated afterwards. If you can free yourself from all expectations for his reaction, ok, but one has to be at the end of the LE or very mature to do that (which me, I‘m not)…
In your case, you didn’t take into account that he probably will feel something untrue, like I said, and this will confuse him and he might retreat more which will hurt you more.
So hang in there and it will get better! I‘m sure if that!
I will wait, thank you for the support and encouragement. I feel a little clearer, not much, but I see that disclosure would not be wise, and by the time my head is in a better place, I will hopefully be well on the road to being over him and I won’t need to bring it up anyway!
At the moment I am close to hating him, but I know as soon as I see him again I’ll be right back to lust, so I need to stay as distant as possible. I’m not sure how to do that whilst remaining civil. I’m not very good at grey areas, it’s very much all or nothing with me!
I can see all the things I need to be doing but the action is so difficult. It’s easier to sit in the enveloping warmth of Limerence, I want the heady feeling of falling for someone and the suspicion that it’s reciprocal, I want that feeling to go on and on. If only I could turn it toward my SO. I do love him but it’s a solid, comfortable love. Probably the kind people dream of! I want the chase, that giddy daydream of what could be. And if I can’t have that I want to starve this pain away, run it out, become a shell.
@Problem Child,
I understand you so well.
I‘m limerent for my friend at the moment, trying my best to keep the friendship afloat without disclosing, and I also have this love(lust)/hate up and downs. I try to temper them and not let them show- he‘s bewildered sometimes nonetheless, but he’s a bit naive and a temperate, guileless soul, so he just let me act this or that way without being hurt or asking why, which, absurdly, drives me crazy sometimes.
Sometimes I wish I could just cut the contact, or disclose and then cut the contact, something dramatical and liberating… but then I would lose my friend and I couldn’t bear it.
I just go on and hope that everything will run its course and fade away.
But I get you, this exhilarating feeling of limerence seems to equal being alive in the best way. Hard to give it up.
I know what you mean, Problem Child. I feel angry at my LO too. Just keep going. There’s a bit in the musical of Groundhog Day which means a lot to me at the moment. It goes:
You can curse
Cast spells or cry
Offer your prayers
To the unfeeling sky
The spring will arrive
When the winter is done
And if it’s not tomorrow
Then tomorrow, or tomorrow
There will be sun.
Tomorrow, spring will come, and then
There will be blue skies, my friend
Bright eyes and laughter
Tomorrow, there will be sun
But if not tomorrow
Perhaps the day after.
Beautiful:)
Problem Child, hi,
Not a good day for you today, it seems. Oh , do I know that feeling so well… the anguish, the agony, discomfort, the whole world turned upside down! The desperation , sorrow and helplessness , that sharp jab in the heart and stomach… so many overwhelming emotions, the end of the world…. So much suffering for another human being , it’s inconceivable! There’s no other pain greater than the pain of a loss of a loved one in a romantic relationship. And I think I can attest to that, I lost both my parents a sister and a brother, a niece. Very painful indeed, takes time to heal; but the loss of my beloved, it is too overwhelming, too much to bear! It’s like ripping a part of you from the inside! It’s a continuous suffering and torment that no balsam can soothe away. Yes, I know, I know how you feel!
You need to cry and wallow in your sorrow until it washes away the heavy burden in your chest. Don’t try to cover or escape it , you got to live it, taste it until there’s no more tears. It’s part of the healing process. And repeat the process as many times as necessary. No use of telling you what to do now that you’re so sensitive, living the agony of a loss, detachment. All you need now is an understanding friend, a family member, a shoulder to lean on to cry, and for strength and a ray of hope.
Yes, there’s hope in the horizon when time becomes your best ally . Spring comes after a long winter…
Here’s a site you can visit:
“ Tips for coping with emotional pain.” Loving Roots Project, Dr. Shelly Sommerfeldt.
Sending my best wishes and fast healing ❤️🩹 many tight hugs for you.
“Is anyone awake? I have stayed away from the chat because it seemed to make things worse, but I really need a lifeline, it is eating me up. The futility of it! I am trying to focus on other pursuits but everything comes back to him – if I decide to improve an area of my life I realise it’s for him, I want him to notice. Was he ever interested or have I been fooling myself the whole time. Who knows or cares? Only me in this hole.”
@Problem Child.
I used to think that feelings of social alienation cause limerence. Now I think it’s the other way round – limerence produces feelings of social alienation (and unworthiness, ugly duckling syndrome, etc, etc).
Basically, all the “yucky feelings” people have during limerence are actually created by limerence itself in order to keep the limerent stuck in limerence. Once one exits limerence, one is surprisingly free of “yucky feelings”. At least that’s been my experience… The yucky feelings are as illusory as the nice feelings. 😉
Hmm, I am definitely socially awkward – it is getting better with age but I’m fairly certain I was this way before I felt any Limerence for anyone. I’ve felt odd from a very young age! But I can see how it could be vice versa, and I can see how not being unhealthily attached to someone could benefit me, socially. If he’s around I spend most of my time trying to catch his attention and only half engaging with anyone else, wondering if he’s watching, making sure I suck my stomach in, walk like Marilyn Monroe. Exhausting!
I’m finding that trying to be as present as possible with my family helps somewhat. It creates a focus and grounding. I struggle to give in to the love, to fully experience joy in them and myself. It’s like I can’t let go, but I think if I can learn to, I might get some of what I’m chasing with LO from the people who genuinely love me.
What an age to be starting to grow up! 🙄
@Problem Child.
“Hmm, I am definitely socially awkward – it is getting better with age but I’m fairly certain I was this way before I felt any Limerence for anyone. I’ve felt odd from a very young age!”
I think, prior to limerence, I was socially awkward, but not unhappy about being socially awkward. I was a happy ugly duckling.
When limerence struck, I became unhappy about being socially awkward, although I think I also overestimated my level of social awkwardness, because I was unreasonably comparing myself to someone who was super-confident and high-functioning. I became an unhappy ugly duckling.
I don’t know if limerence was some push from deep within my own psyche to improve my overall level of social competence…
@IMHO You asked me a question about limerenceforums.com but for some reason there wasn’t a Reply button on your post, so I’m quoting it and replying here.
“ Hi AnonFP,
Can you advise how the forum works. Do you mean the fact you have to sign-in with email details means less amount of people voyeuring that maybe aren’t understanding /part of our ‘ tribe’ ? The concern to me is the word ‘Sign-up’ and all of what that normally brings. What reassurance is there on data protection etc signing up with email address ? I appreciate and trust Dr L with my email address. He let’s people post directly here with no sign-up. there is no monitoring before post appearances ( which potentially is dangerous but most people posting seem very responsible)”
limerenceforums.com is private and can’t be internally searched by Google or other search engines. It is run by a group of us who were on the private forum that used to be here on LWL. It is not a commercial site in any way, no information including emails is monetized or used in any way other than sending automated notifications (if requested). I’m an admin and moderator but moderation is light and infrequent.
LWL is a great site and we always post links to Dr. L’s weekly blogs on LF. But I personally was never comfortable commenting on private matters on a site that is as open as this one, and others had similar concerns. The LWL forum was perfect for that, so when it closed, those of us who still wanted that private discussion area simply built a new one 🙂
A song for the limerent: https://beautifulcrisis.bandcamp.com/album/deep
“Deep”–Beautiful Crisis (single with remixes)
When you put your mouse up by the tracks, you can click on “lyrics” and read what it’s all about. For example:
“Give me just a signal or sign
If I’m on the right line
[everything you do gives nothing out]
[no one ever knows what you’re about]
So much I don’t know,
I can’t deny ‘Cause I can’t read your mind
[So give me just a signal or sign] ”
“I still haven’t eaten
They say my depression just isn’t convenient”
“You’re like a magic box
I have the key but don’t know where it goes in”
“You give me nothing to go on
You’re so deep like the water
When you can’t feel the bottom”
Just wanted to drop in for a minute. I don’t want to stay too long and get mired in it again. But Momma and I had a really good honest conversation yesterday that I think is a really positive step in the right direction. Progress is being made and as much as I miss my limerent friends here I still think I need more time away. Hope that you all are doing well, and if Momma still checks in here she can share any details we talked about if she wants. I miss you all greatly. Take care of yourselves. Maybe I can come back one day.
Come on back Friend.
You’re always welcome.
Glad you’re doing better.
😉
That’s great news, well done Adam. I think I’ve had more honest conversations with my SO since I disclosed to him than we’ve ever had. We certainly feel closer. As long as I can keep my LO out of my head and not see him again until I’m in a better place.
Therapy is interesting. A bit scary; I feel I’m starting to open a bit of a Pandora’s box…
Yep,
“Therapy is interesting. A bit scary; I feel I’m starting to open a bit of a Pandora’s box…”
Only ~10% of an iceberg is visible above the surface.
It’s what you don’t see that sinks you.
If you have a competent therapist and are willing to do the work, you can go to places you wouldn’t believe.
When I started therapy, I didn’t just go back 25 years to understand how I got to where I was, I went back 50 years. I started out trying to bury one ghost of the past.
By the time it was over, I ended up burying 4 of them. My mother, my grandmother, LO #2, and LO #4.
In the end, it was worth every minute.
Thanks LE, I feel as if that’s what’s going to happen for me. It’s like standing on the edge of a precipice! But I do feel already that things are starting to shift a bit. It’s very encouraging to hear how much it did for you.
Lucky Cat.. 😸
Maybe I’ll get there eventually. Happy for you though..
C4C,
” It’s like standing on the edge of a precipice!”
Yeah, it can feel that way.
For me, [bad analogy coming], it was like an abscess that finally got so annoying that I had to do something about it.
Like Dr. Pimple Popper, you never know exactly what you’re going to find until you start digging. It turned out that the root cause of my problem was some long-standing resentment I had for my mother, grandmother, and LO #2. LO #4, who bears more than a superficial resemblance to LO #2, was a major inconvenience. What my last LE showed was I still had a vulnerability.
I always knew LO #4 had to go, it was a question of when and how. However, once she was inside my head, it was harder to get rid of her than I thought it would be.
The resentment was the pus. That resentment was taking away a lot of energy I could have been putting into other areas of my life. Like cleaning out any abscess, once the pus is gone, there can be a pretty big hole left behind and if you’re not careful, it can fill back up. But, once it’s cleaned out, you feel a lot better.
Good luck!
Bravo C for Cat! You’re really showing great courage!!!!You’ll be just fine, you’ll see. And from here to the sky!
Best wishes w/ your therapy and SO. Hugs for you.
Hi MJ,
You’ll be next! Waiting to hear for the good news with your therapist. Don’t use the word limerence when you request for an appointment. Just that you need urgently cognitive therapy; after a while you introduce the issue as an “obsession “, by that time they’ll do anything for you, ‘cause you are a lovely person’, and you deserve the very best. Go get them man!
Blessings and a big tight hug to last until you get that therapist.💪🏽
I’d like to touch on a topic that I don’t think has been addressed previously on the blog, and I think the coffeehouse is a logical place to do it. The topic is: what are signs/symptoms that someone is coming out of the altered state of limerence? How does one know one is returning to “normality”, in other words?
Here are my thoughts/observations:
(1) After limerence, time seems to move a lot more slowly. The world seems to slow down. I guess this is because one isn’t ruminating and obsessing constantly. For example, I spent 40 minutes in front of the TV the other night, and it felt like four hours. (A good reason to start living purposefully I guess?)
(2) Things that previously had strong emotional/romantic associations for the limerent won’t carry those associations anymore e.g. a full moon.
(3) Physical attractiveness will loss most or all of its significance as a measure of someone’s value. Even movie stars will start looking ordinary. I guess, when one is no longer dreaming of romance, how other people look ceases to matter. The emotional part of the brain doesn’t respond so powerfully to beauty. Attachments become more about other traits e.g. is this person easy-going?
(4) Vague feelings of existential dread may disappear, especially the kind of vague feelings that keep one up at night. For example, my whole life I’ve suffered from anxiety. The anxiety has gone away for now, and I hope it doesn’t come back. I think my anxiety was really my brain instructing me to seek dopamine.
(5) Libido will return to normal levels if libido has previously been elevated. Also, one will stop obsessing over how normal one is in the sexual arena compared to other people because one now FEELS normal. (One isn’t troubled by excessively strong desire that seems hard to manage and conducive to guilt feelings).
(6) One becomes a lot more agreeable and forgiving. (No brutal mood swings to undermine one’s essentially good-natured temperament).
(7) One will feel a lot less alienated from other people/mainstream societal values, and one will understand that the magical world one inhabits while limerent isn’t the real world per se. I.e. it’s not normal to swing between ecstasy and despair and feel crazy amounts of anxiety all the time. And no, most people are NOT sending complicated secret signals to other people. Life isn’t a detective novel, or a spy thriller. One shouldn’t be forever on the hunt for “clues”. 😉
Sammy hi,
How does one know one is returning to “normality”— from LE.
For me , I slowed down , the world slowed down, less emotional/romantic associations…After ten furious months of being madly energized , some highs some lows ,(depending on the memories intruding the brain) , the mind only functioning about 85%, (no control) crying, ruminating, difficulties to breath or sleep, anxiety, no appetite, the whole world revolved around LO, etc., by the eleventh month the world miraculously slowed down, not necessarily bringing it to a halt, (5 months now), but it made me slow down also. It was the result of forced NC. All doors to access LO were closed by his SO. For which I’m glad because I don’t know where that energy and craziness would have led me to. NC continues and I’ll be so happy when it all ends and I come back to total normalcy. What a rollercoaster of emotions and suffering this limerence can bring! Never went through this before! It’s like a curse or hard punishment, total torture! That’s addiction to a person!
Can’t wait to see the day it all goes away for good!!!
Stay strong 💪🏽 and hugs for you.
@Nisor.
“For me , I slowed down , the world slowed down, less emotional/romantic associations…After ten furious months of being madly energized , some highs some lows ,(depending on the memories intruding the brain) , the mind only functioning about 85%, (no control) crying, ruminating, difficulties to breath or sleep, anxiety, no appetite, the whole world revolved around LO, etc., by the eleventh month the world miraculously slowed down, not necessarily bringing it to a halt, (5 months now), but it made me slow down also.”
That is a great description, and I think it might be helpful to non-limerents who are wondering what limerence actually feels like…
“Stay strong 💪🏽 and hugs for you.”
Thank you. I will. 😛
I have an unrelated question to limerence for the ladies here (and of course men can chime in too.)
I had a few gin & juice drinks this morning while I sat in my lounge pants and played Warframe. When Momma woke up she said we needed to go to the store. So I got dressed and she drove. I got on my shoes, gray jeans, gray collared shirt, black waistcoat and black fedora. We were just going to 7-11 and Dollar General. But I wanted to look the best for her in public. I made the comment that we looked so different because she was in her sweatpants and hoody. She just kind of chuckled. Does it matter what we wear? Do you ladies care if we are dressed well or in jeans and a t-shirt? I dress the way I do so …. it feels like marking my territory. She belongs to me (oh god I am going to get hell for that) and no one else. Just curious if women notice how a man dresses and much as us men do with you ladies.
Oh, yeah, we notice. I don’t mind jeans and T-shirts, the geeky look I’m comfortable with, but I do wish guys would put in more effort when they’re not just lounging around.
@Adam
Just by the way LO grooms, I know accurately which day he is going a rendezvous with his side chick, which would cause my jealousy pain (I was never jealous of other females before this LE). If he dresses slobbish, then I feel better throughout day. Such is an annoying idiot of LE’s hypersensitivity.
I even smelled his subtle cologne when shortly after we first met at work, I could not believe my half dog-like nose but was very pleased. Nowadays men rarely wears cologne in my line of work.
Thanks for the replies. I was just curious if women noticed fashion like I suspect most men do. I always like it when Momma dresses up. Her in a skirt/dress and heels … oh my …. unfortunately not heels much anymore since her ankle surgery. But she’s got some *wink wink* boots she can wear.
Snowphoenix
I use to wear cologne a lot when I was younger. But Momma either is hypersensitive to the smell or has an outright allergenic reaction to it we found out soon after we got married. So I don’t wear it anymore.
But I find women’s perfume enticing if it is in moderation. I can walk past both men and women that put waaaaay too much on and it’s like walking into a brick wall to my nose.
@Adam,
I wear skirt and dress mostly at work, but also ironed trousers, jeans and shirt. I always carry a small bottle of condensed perfume purchased from Fragonard, France, but the scent, even tiny bit, is so strong that I worry to be thought of a seductress by “ethical” LO.
I wore a plain black jean and white shirt w/ light makeup and without any perfume yesterday and for some reasons got hit by small talk of several men throughout the day in metro, shops, and at work, including LO. Later I realized that my not-transparent shirt is a bit of tight… ☺️
Men are creatures of visual, helplessly; so are women, but much less helpless….
For some reason Snowphoenix this post reminded me of a part in Charles Bukowski’s book “Women”.
“You boys can keep your virgins. Give me hot old women in high heels with a**es that forget to get old.”
^I agree with him.
I know my brain is a mess. Now it’s time to go home. And I will leave you with my most favorite quote of his.
“When you drank the world was still out there, but for the moment it didn’t have you by the throat.”
Imma take his advice when I get home. Hope you have a good evening.
My LO has enveloped me in hugs where I’d smell his cologne on my hair for the rest of the day. I’ll walk past him and the scent of it makes me weak in the knees. Or the time he had so much on I smelled it across the room….Makes it hard to keep the thoughts under control….
A brilliantly descriptive slice of limerence. Conciseness is often so good.
@frederico
Thanks. 🙂
Hi Adam , didn’t see the post until now.
I like to see my SO and son to be neat and elegant for work or other occasions. (I choose the clothing for both) But for everyday chores a pair of jeans and a nice T shirt 👕 , sneakers will do. I always like gentlemen with suits and ties, well shaved for office work. I admire framed lean athletic bodies, anything they wear look good on them. Yeah, I d prefer younger men wearing light colored shirts or T shirts , not dark colors . One dresses according to the occasion, but sloppy dressing it’s a no no under any circumstances. And some soft cologne. Some strong colognes smell like insecticides .
I always wear a pair of pants and beautiful colorful blouses. When I worked I wore dresses or skirts and high heels .Light perfumes. No sweat pants for me. Jeans yes . In winter I can wear sneakers, summer I wear all kind of beautiful colored sandals. I love getting all dressed up for an event or a wedding !!! I still have a great lean body shape and the right curbs in the right places… no difficulties finding something beautiful to fit in. Each individual have their unique style to complement their personality.
Have a good evening . Sending you a hug.
Nisor
I find my change in fashion sense in my older age has also brought a lot of confidence in myself to dress as I want even if it is “old fashioned” for just everyday things. I dress a bit more casually for work because I do office work and manual labor in the warehouse. But going out, I like to look sharp for my wife. She may not care that I do, but I want to do it for her and myself.
Which reminds me I need to go to the dry cleaners this weekend ….
Nisor, from your post here I can guarantee you are turning some men’s heads. Even if they are being discreet about it. 🙂
As Snowphoniex said, us men are helplessly visual and I agree with her. Even when my wife already knows I will notice a woman’s attire long before I actually do myself lol Here’s to 24 years in October
Adam,
If you look up the movie “ Gilda” with Rita Hayworth, body and face, curly hair, I’d be her twin sister, but with black hair.
Many people, men and women used to tell me that. But I never thought of myself beautiful but just a regular person. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. LO and So find me beautiful, ha. But I rather be good and wise…
Have a pleasant evening. 💪🏽
@Snowphoenix.
I feel like we’ve been having a little informal debate with each other, whether we realise it or not. And I think maybe the coffeehouse is the best place to finish that discussion. I’ve really enjoyed exchanging ideas with you. Because you’re sort of centred in your masculine energy, you’ve pushed me into my feminine energy, and I find it relaxing to use an often-dormant part of my brain.
Debates in real life usually consist of three rounds. Best of three wins. 😉
I flatter myself into believing I won round one of our informal debate. (Free feel to disagree with me if you feel victory was yours). Winning theme of debate one: limerence is bad because addiction can lead to near-unbearable and senseless suffering, usually for the limerent, but occasionally for both LO and limerent.
I feel you won round two of our informal debate. Winning theme of debate two: limerence is good because profound romantic infatuation can unlock the potential creativity of human beings through freeing up libidinal energies which may have otherwise remained buried and hence unused.
I don’t know the winning theme of round three yet, or the topic of round three. I suspect you will win round three, though, and I’m old enough and mature enough to let that be the case. I feel that it is good for young people to defy their elders sometimes because it shows young people have a lot of pluck and vitality, and that pluck and vitality augurs well for the future of civilisation. 🤔
As a “tribal elder”, I don’t see it as my place to tell other people what to do. As a “tribal elder”, I think it is my job to encourage people to educate themselves on relevant issues and then, using that education, make the smartest possible decisions for themselves. I feel that if people aren’t allowed to make decisions genuinely for themselves, any decisions made won’t stick.
This is why I don’t directly oppose posters in favour of limerence – I don’t want my point of view to become one more “barrier” that needs to be opposed in the limerent’s mind, which is already programmed to resist barriers. (Barriers only makes the limerent obsession grow stronger). So a bit of subtle psychology is at play when I choose to take a gentle, noncommittal approach! I really want people to look at the various options, consider the pros and cons, and pick out the right course for themselves – a course compatible with their other life goals. 😉
I have written a poem for you, since you like an intellectual challenge. It’s just a playful little poem, but the overall tone is pessimistic. The poem is a playful comment on why limerence might be negative. (I.e. limerence is bad because it doesn’t last. And even if one marries one’s LO, responsibilities pile up and one struggles to remember the bliss one shared initially with one’s partner).
The poem does contain some cliched imagery. I’m not trying to write the best poem ever written. The poem is intended as an instructional piece, which you are of course free to respond to with your own views. The last two lines of the poem are sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek, but I think you’re intelligent enough to pick up on that already without being told. I’ve even managed to sneak in a “phoenix reference” to indicate that the poem was inspired by our exchanges on LwL! 😜
The phoenix rises from the ash
And in due course dragon eggs hatch.
“Man is flame and Woman water,”
Mothers seldom instruct daughters.
Envy not young couples courting.
Brief their season in the sun.
Time, indignant, will conspire
To rob them of all laurels won.
Knights weary of noble deeds
And maidens sicken of moonlight.
Responsibilities intrude
On perfect days and carefree nights.
The flowers of springtime vanish.
The birds of summer too retreat.
Follow the herd. But mark my words –
Not every berry picked is sweet.
The one you want won’t always shine
Like a glass of sparkling wine.
“Man is clay and Woman fire,”
Fathers rarely tell sprogs sired.
Call me a spoilsport if you like
And curse my creed in seven tongues.
What would I know of ecstasy?
What could I know of the gods’ fun?
Nice poem Sammy..
What is it with limerence that seems to turn some of us limerents into poets?? I’ve written quite a handful of them myself. Perhaps it needs it’s own thread..
🤔🤔
@MJ.
Haha! And thank you. 😛
@Sammy,
The reason I enjoy responding your posts is because a lot of thoughts and issues you randomly or purposefully touched lit up a march over some “untrodden” territory inside me, which may be somewhat related to my “crooked” (by cptsd) personality and manifested in my relating to others (failed or successful) without my clear awareness or recognization.
“Well, to be honest, believe it or not, I’ve always felt a little bit uncomfortable with debating, and still to this day feel uncomfortable with debating. However, debating seems to be something that my brain is naturally very good at… “
In my COO, there is no neutral translation for “debate”, it’s equivalent to negative “argument” which is considered to automatically ruin that “sublime” harmony. There was no debating club or any kind of encouragement as I grew up; my father served as a “natural trainer” (his ego strived to win in all areas) to tease and provoke my brain during my teenage and always upset me because I “lost” basically every argument . I don’t believe that one is born to love arguing , but some kids, if exposed to good books, are more curious than others. If they are listened to well and their opinions taken appropriately, then the urge to argue might have be subsided or died right then and there.
In my case, I was so ignored physically and mentally before reaching teen, that unheard, accumulated stuff were repressed inside like volcano mess. In addition, with a higher energy level un-channeled sufficiently through sports or engaging mental activities, I became argumentative or rebellious. Given a perceived “right” cause, my mental volcano would “erupt” in a form of frenzied argument or rebellious act.
“I really don’t want to clobber people with my opinions, or pressure people to see things from my point of view, or anything like that. I’m a very live-and-let-live type of person. Ninety percent of the time I don’t care what people do with their private lives, as it’s simply none of my business.”
I used to be very opinionated, thinking my views are more accurate or valuable, which alienated a lot of people who didn’t like arguments on complicated topics. Puzzled by the reality and saddened by its “tragedies”, I was habitually helplessly drawn to its complex issues since young (cptsd affects?). So for me, I don’t see you’re pressuring others to take your points views, it’s fascinating to see different views on the same or new complex issues — that’s where my curiosity about the world lies.
“Most of my life I’ve been either (a) terribly afraid of saying the wrong thing, or (b) too worried about hurting people’s feelings to say anything. I don’t believe in “giving it to people straight” necessarily. I think a bit of flattery can be valuable when sharing important truths – a dash of social lubricant goes a long way. “
I’ve been so self-conscious, terribly afraid of saying wrong things and being laughted at behind my back, that to this day, I avoid raising my hand in others’ classroom, even if I had dying questions that no one else mentioned. My heart would beat like hopping rabbits, my face flush, my legs shake, if I finally raised my hand and was given a chance to speak. Isn’t it very telling and ironic considering my profession?!
Privately on one-to-one/two basis, I could literally talk or argue about any issues under the sky, given that other side, male or female, is somewhat a “match hand” with their curious, open mind and personality — of course, I have to like them to extend to even begin. My problem is that I tend to be straight-forward with an attitude of genuinely seeking truths, and thus rarely (don’t know how) flatter — feeling embarrassed to say superficial things that I did not mean to. But with many failures, I’ve learned that subtle or substance-filled flattery/praise could be more valuable than any truths, men are particularly love to hear it!
“When I was a little boy, my mother told me I was special. But she didn’t back up her words with actions. Her love for me was conditional.”
During my childhood, no one ever told me I was special (maybe Granny?), but somehow I just felt and thought I was special. So perhaps that was why I behaved rebelliously, daring what other kinds were absolutely afraid to do, like physically escaping from daycare/weekcare center three times at age of 5 or 6.
“Being special to LO” was the premise of the whole fantasy. So I was definitely re-enacting some relationship from my childhood, hoping to get a better result the second time round. I couldn’t see the parallel at the time.”
That’s exact psychology with me. We both have cptsd with our narcissistic/narcissist parents. We’re dying to have LO to fulfill our never met childhood needs. But no one, even if they are willing, could make up what I have permanantly missed, because we are no longer that kid; no one can step into the same water twice!
“I think, because I was raised Christian, I’ve always been super-concerned about the sin of lust. So I’ve always monitored my own feelings obsessively.”
My COO was worse than Christianity in this regard, which inhabited and repressed my innate, healthy lust not just in physical level (I unconsciously kept its repression even during my marriage), but other creative domains. COO culture stresses obedience the most, oppressing and even prosecuting individual and creative mind.
“The most important difference between my limerent self and my post-limerent self is now I’m more comfortable with being open about my feelings. Also, more comfortable with admitting my many past mistakes. So I’m not hiding behind a “mask of perfection” anymore…”
With or without limerence, I was open to few of selective friends; but highly guarded to the rest, including LOs. Although pursuing to be a perfectionist, I don’t wear a “mask of perfection” because inside I was very insecure and “fragile” in some sense like an emotional orphan. Yet inherited Dad’s pride, I hated to admit, and rarely acknowledged my uncountable mistakes and follies.
But with the current LO, for some reasons, I was unafraid to show him all my vulnerable parts through monologue oversharing, because I fantasied him as an ideal surrogate parents, I used him — whose opinion I cared most, as a training ground to open myself up for the first time in my life. He knew this and just listened, rarely judged — one excellent merit of his. He never put me down or made me feel inferior in any sense; he just would not respond to some sensitive or over personal topics. So this LE in its wired aspect, benefited me out of my expectations — allowed me to make up some unmet needs from childhood and thus matured some through its roller-coaster ride.
Each LE is different; my previous LEs were not so “beneficial”.
*****
I feel like we’ve been having a little informal debate with each other, whether we realise it or not. And I think maybe the coffeehouse is the best place to finish that discussion.”
I did not realize that we were debating, I just found some of your views provoking my curiosity with meaningful relevances — they’re important issues for me personally in terms of relating to the world and other people.
“I’ve really enjoyed exchanging ideas with you. Because you’re sort of centred in your masculine energy, you’ve pushed me into my feminine energy, and I find it relaxing to use an often-dormant part of my brain.”
I consider this as a highest flattery! — my masculine energy arouse or energize a men’s feminine energy! Wow! 💃🏻
As mentioned before, I can’t stand macho, high masculine energy in men; moderate in women is cool. I found men’s tears are very touching and human, and distrust men who are afraid of shredding tears in front of me — believing they are capable of doing “cruel things” to me, such as inconsideration for my feelings or breaking my heart without hesitation. I’m always afraid of hurting others, especially LOs.
A fable here: A king asked five blind men to describe what an elephant is like after touching them. So five man described it, respectively, as a fan, a rope, a wall, a tree trunk, and a sword. Then the king said, you are all correct, but only partial because you can’t see the whole elephant.
To see the whole life as an elephant, we are all a blind man. Religious people say only God can see the whole elephant, atheist claim no one could ever see the whole of the elephant who is also constantly changing. At any given time, we each blind man can only subjective see and present a small portion of reality. But we often argue and debate as if we know the whole truth — “I’m right and he’s wrong”… 10 different perspectives (culturally) could be all correct, but just partial.
So debating for two sides sometimes is quite limited… You and I are merely presenting two varied views on limerence, based on our OWN, different experiences, not necessary that of other limerents here.
“Winning theme of debate one: limerence is bad because addiction can lead to near-unbearable and senseless suffering, usually for the limerent, but occasionally for both LO and limerent. “
That’s general true since you have covered a lot of variables. But LO might feel embarrissed or annoyed, they can NEVER suffer limerents’ “near-unbearable” and “senseless” pains, unless they are in a mutual limerence.
“Winning theme of debate two: limerence is good because profound romantic infatuation can unlock the potential creativity of human beings through freeing up libidinal energies which may have otherwise remained buried and hence unused.”
Limerence CAN be beneficial if one is able to use it as a creative force fueling other self-growth interests. That depends on personality and one’s profound aim in life. I was in thick of depression after breaking up with LO#5 for the first rebound, then LO #7 suddenly landed from “the Mars”, instantly pulled my spirit out of the swamp of depression. Our human genomic instinct is marvelous in responding to its longing and “calling”.
“I don’t know the winning theme of round three yet, or the topic of round three. I suspect you will win round three.”
Theme three could be: whether limerent and LO could be friends after limerence is long gone; it’s sad if they are unable. Despite its ugly, painful elements, its beautiful, creative power is also amazing if used positively. Again think of those artistic creations throughout our civilization! And what could limerent and LO not forgive each other and amend in order to befriend, after limerence truly becomes peaceful? Life is already short and imperfect enough, why not making it less unfortunate in one area we have already devoted our soul in it?
“I’m old enough and mature enough to let that be the case. I feel that it is good for young people to defy their elders sometimes because it shows young people have a lot of pluck and vitality, and that pluck and vitality augurs well for the future of civilisation. “
“As a “tribal elder”, I don’t see it as my place to tell other people what to do.
What a “tribal elder”? Are you referring in LwL community, you’re an elder? 😳 Why do you keep “lamenting” about your age? Is mental and emotional vitality having anything to do with chronic age? 40 is still in youth bracket, 53 is new middle age base on one NYT magazine article a decade ago. Moreover, does chronic or mental age matter more? The world is so obsessed with youth, as if it has direct correlation to one’s substantial happiness or fulfillment. There are 80 yrs old, miserable, whinny “child”, and 30 yrs old, joyful and laidback sage, all depending on one’s mentality and wisdom, NOT one’s youth or external appearance. Gosh, I’m so preachy today…
“This is why I don’t directly oppose posters in favour of limerence – I don’t want my point of view to become one more “barrier” that needs to be opposed in the limerent’s mind, which is already programmed to resist barriers. (Barriers only makes the limerent obsession grow stronger). “
I don’t think anyone is so fond of limerence particularly considering its dark force — otherwise, without profound sufferings, we could not even locate LwL. Here everyone is also that “blind man”, presenting their partial view, so no absolute right or wrong in any “post”, except those scientifically based neurochemistry stuff, that still can’t explain Eastern “unscientific” energy-medicines. I’m ready to debate with DrL on this arena, after he experiences his body-mind connection.
“So a bit of subtle psychology is at play when I choose to take a gentle, noncommittal approach! I really want people to look at the various options, consider the pros and cons, and pick out the right course for themselves – a course compatible with their other life goals.”
You’ve been doing marvelous job here, everyone is getting something from your insights balanced with many factors of limerence. I even get a domaine fix by “debating” with your feminine energy — you might sweep away an ultimate success if the Phantom in me could be pushed out… 😋 If you were living in my area, I’d drag you out weekly for a true coffee house debate while we both look at and comment on those gorgeous men passing the windows. 😝 — it’s a bit of unfair that I have to compete with a man on getting other “animal-magnetic” men’s attention! 😁
“I have written a poem for you, since you like an intellectual challenge.“
I’m really honored to receive a personal “devoted” poem! 💃🏻 Allow me to be 35% narcissistic here — did my masculine energy inspire your feminine energy and poetic drive?
“It’s just a playful little poem, but the overall tone is pessimistic. The poem is a playful comment on why limerence might be negative. (I.e. limerence is bad because it doesn’t last. And even if one marries one’s LO, responsibilities pile up and one struggles to remember the bliss one shared initially with one’s partner).”
To creatively portray something negative itself is positive, look at those Greek tragedies! That’s what effective art, tragic or comic, is supposed to do — non-judgmentally presenting sorrows and woes in our shared humanity, consoling our suffering souls, and urge/push us to think and learn from those man-made irreversible errors and follies.
“The poem does contain some cliched imagery. I’m not trying to write the best poem ever written.”
After BS in COO, I got a BA in the “new” culture in Literature writing, specializing in poetry writing (all in English), and even earned small prizes for my homework collections and had one piece published nationwide. So I can apprecaite poetry at least, and habitually fuss over word choices in my own posts and other writings.
But I would like to refresh my own memory here, so reminding myself not to repeat my past repeated mistakes— expecting valuable, beautiful things to last and refusing to get into transient matters, since I foresee its possibly sad endings.
The first of four Nobel truth in Buddhism is: Everything is impermanent. (unguarded sensory contact gives rise to craving and clinging to impermanent states and things) The only thing unchangeable in this universe is “change” itself. Even our own cells, growing and dying millions each day.
That’s the default of our existence. So expect anything to last is physiologically or psychologically impossible. Everything will change or perish soon or later, inducing all relationships. Then, what’s the point for any kind of “purposeful living’? Then should we not bother to live, since we have to die one day?
There is no universal meanings for anyone, it’s futile to search for them elsewhere externally, except internally. One can and is responsible to create meanings for their own individual life — Albert Camus, who seemed to have had “sparkly” and “fulfilling” life despite its many tragic aspects.
I’ll try to respond your poem later.
A typo: it should be — lit up a match-fire over some “untrodden” territory inside me….
— Including all relationships.
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for your very thoughtful and thorough response. I am very moved by your reply, and also have a vaguely uncomfortable feeling that I may have accidentally “met my match” in the intelligence department and should have keep my mouth shut, since you’re more than capable of holding your own. Being bested by a woman … oh dear, how embarrassing! Where’s the door so I can discreetly exit the building? 😆
Sorry for my delayed response to yours. But, who knows? Perhaps my delay was intentional? Perhaps I wanted to give you time to gather your thoughts and come up with something splendid, which I think you have, so … kudos to you. 😉
“In my COO, there is no neutral translation for “debate”, it’s equivalent to negative “argument” which is considered to automatically ruin that “sublime” harmony.”
For me, the concept of debating is neutral. The last thing I want to do is to inspire in a “shame response” in other people. It’s not my goal to make others feel small. Nor is it my goal to always be on the winning team. (When I was in school, I always wanted to be on the winning team. That didn’t work out so well. First prize always went to more conventional thinkers, or to people whose handwriting was much neater than mine!) 😉
“Arguing” has more of a negative connotation. I suppose, in a perfect world, debating would be objective – some kind of objective search for truth. However, I’m honest enough to admit my style of debating isn’t objective. It’s actually quite subjective, and that’s what makes it fun. I like to go off on little tangents and make jokes. I like to contradict myself multiple times in the one paragraph, and pretend I haven’t. Sometimes, entertaining people is more important to me than relaying pure facts. 😉
“I did not realize that we were debating, I just found some of your views provoking my curiosity with meaningful relevances — they’re important issues for me personally in terms of relating to the world and other people.”
Yes, perhaps you’re right. Perhaps we weren’t debating as such? Perhaps we were merely probing each other’s minds? Perhaps my mind was simply running on a few of the same tracks as your mind, creating a tantalising feeling of spiritual kinship, however fleeting? 🤔
“Theme three could be: whether limerent and LO could be friends after limerence is long gone; it’s sad if they are unable. Despite its ugly, painful elements, its beautiful, creative power is also amazing if used positively.”
Wow! Love it! Especially since it’s a “soft” topic and not a “hard” topic, so there’s not really a right or wrong answer. Is friendship and forgiveness truly possible after limerence has faded? I know the topic has been covered in a recent blog. But I have barely even begun to excavate my own emotions on the subject. It’s easier to have a pure-love response or a pure-hate response to someone who has hurt one at one’s very core than to have a nuanced response, a nuanced response where love and hate may coexist in roughly equal measure. 🤔
“You’ve been doing marvelous job here, everyone is getting something from your insights balanced with many factors of limerence. I even get a domaine fix by “debating” with your feminine energy — you might sweep away an ultimate success if the Phantom in me could be pushed out…”
Thank you. The funny thing is … I have no idea what I’m doing here. Or why I have an irresistible urge to keep talking about stuff I probably know very little about! I’m an extremely reserved introvert, I swear! In real life, I’m a mouse. You wouldn’t notice me if we were in the same room. 😁
“What a “tribal elder”? Are you referring in LwL community, you’re an elder? 😳 Why do you keep “lamenting” about your age? Is mental and emotional vitality having anything to do with chronic age?”
“Tribal elder” is me being playful in a self-deprecating way. Also, it’s me being pretentious in an absurdly self-aggrandising way. I see myself, quite narcissistically, as a “tribal elder” of the entire human race since I’m 40, unmarried, and childless. I suppose I have grandiose fantasies about watching over my fellow humans and making sure they don’t get into too much mischief. Not that I can stop anyone from getting into mischief, if that’s what they truly want. I have “surrogate father” fantasies. 🙄
I lament my age because I’m actually quite concerned with what is happening to my mind due to aging. I seem to be losing the ability to “get high” from limerence. That might sound like a dream come true to some people, but it makes me worried that mortality is waiting for me right around the corner, like my brain is slowly dying or something. I feel that “time is running out for me” i.e. I am genuinely losing my physical vitality and my mental sharpness with every passing year. On the other hand, the non-addict version of myself seems to be a nicer person. 😆
“I’m really honored to receive a personal “devoted” poem! 💃🏻 Allow me to be 35% narcissistic here — did my masculine energy inspire your feminine energy and poetic drive?”
Hm. I don’t know, to be honest. But to hear you advocate passionately for views that I personally reject – there are times when some phrase you’ve uttered or some insight you’ve offered has ALMOST made me change my mind. You’ve helped me see the light and the beauty in limerence as well as the pain and the darkness. Sometimes, it’s nice to be shaken out of one’s own complacency… Sometimes, a second opinion helps complete a picture that has previously been incomplete. 🙂
Oh Sammy,
That’s is beautifully composed!
Another poet in the LwL community! I always admired your writings but I didn’t know you can write poetry . You should start writing an anthology and poems and publish them. So should Snow.
You got the talent boy! Don’t let it go wasted! Go ahead and do it in your free time.
Have a great day. 💪🏽❤️
@Nisor.
Thank you. 😛
@Sammy
My preliminary response to your poem —
******
Only after breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ashes, then
rises again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a new batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden their wings.
Fathers send sprigs to their sole quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and old.
Couple in summer, under the scorched Sun.
Harvest offspring and passion-fruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights can dig out ugly weeds.
Sicken of the moonlight,
Maiden can plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Flowers of snowy days bloom.
Birds of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter soar to chant.
The one you want won’t always shine.
Then cultivate your desire to self-delight.
Men is iron and wood
women fire and earth.
Interwoven by shared talents and wisdom.
both excel to dance in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in awes.
I sense ecstasy melodically spreading
in my strong, steady heart beats.
****
I may refine it later.
@Sammy
Change a couple of words, already —
@Sammy
My preliminary response to your poem —
******
Only after breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ashes, then
rises again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a new batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden their wings.
Fathers send sprigs to their sole quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and old.
Couple in summer, under the scorched Sun.
Harvest offspring and passion-fruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights can dig out ugly weeds.
Sicken of the moonbeams,
Maiden can plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Flowers of snowy days bloom.
Birds of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter soar to chant.
The one you want won’t always shine.
Then cultivate your desire to self-delight.
Men is iron and wood
women fire and earth.
Interwoven by shared talents and wisdom.
both rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in awes.
I sense ecstasy melodically spreading
in my strong, steady heart beats.
****
Am I in limerence with LwL?
I think I’ll give it a title — “In Eternal Flux”
In Perpetual Flux
Only after breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ashes, then
rise again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a new batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, in glimmering air.
Harvest passion fruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of the moonbeams,
Maiden plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Birds of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Cultivate your vision to research.
Men is iron and wood.
women fire and earth.
Interwoven by shared wisdom.
both rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically stirring
the strong, steady heart beats.
******
The 2nd version
In Perpetual Flux
Only after breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ashes, then
rise again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a new batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, in glimmering air.
Harvest passion fruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of the moonbeams,
Maiden plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Birds of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Alter your gaze at a new vision.
Men is iron and wood.
women fire and earth.
Interwoven by shared wisdom.
both rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically stirring
the strong, steady heart beats.
******
The 3rd version
In Perpetual Flux
Only after breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ashes, then
rise again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a new batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, bathed in genomic glimmer.
Harvest passion fruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of the moonbeams,
Maiden plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Alter your gaze with a fresher vision.
Men & women are iron and wood.
Women & men fire and earth.
Interwoven by shared wisdom,
Jointly rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically stirring
***
The 4th edition
In Perpetual Flux
After breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to the ash, then
rise again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head-n-tail
to hatch a batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, bathed in the genomic glimmer.
Harvest passionfruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
“Weary of noble deeds”,
knights pull our ugly weeds.
Sicken of moonbeams,
maiden plant deep exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of chilly wind chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Alter your gaze with refreshed eyes.
Men & women are iron and wood.
Women & men fire and earth.
Interwoven by mingled insights,
jointly rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Mock my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically stirring
the strong, steady heart beats.
*****
The 5th version
See how a perfectionist with OCD fully at work daily? — I could not help it! ☺️. OCD is worse than limerence to be rid off!
DrL: need the post-editing/deletion function badly, so I don’t annoy others by leaving so many versions of a same content.
*****
In Perpetual Flux
After breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to the ash, then
rise again from the East.
She spins dragon’s head-n-tail
to hatch a batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, bathed in the genomic glimmer.
Harvest passionfruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
“Weary of noble deeds”,
knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of moonbeams,
maiden plant deep exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of chilly wind chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Alter your gaze with refreshed eyes.
Men & women are iron and wood.
Women & men fire and earth.
Interwoven by mingled insights,
rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Mock my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically
stirring the strong heart beats.
*****
The 6th version
@Sammy
Don’t believe that I often feel how is portrayed in my verse, it’s flung out of my brain when dopamine surged a bit at the moment or out of my OCD ambition to win “debate”.
When my serotonin is low (like now after a sad dream), I’d feel more blue than how is perceived in your words. Your vision and mine are just two blind men’s sentiments from two different perspectives at two particular given time — all valid and correct.
In the past before this LE, I was more often in the mindset of your verse so actively avoided getting into some enticing, fun situations, foreseeing they’re inevitable “death”. So I did not experienced any anticipated joy before losing it, I did not obtain anything to lose! How foolish!
I wish with a bit more footing in Buddhism, I could seize a possible healthy, fulfilling chance and enjoy it as much as possible when it lasts, with the FULL awareness that it will end like everything else in the universe.
Now, I’m still in mourning of losses in the current LE, not fully burned to ashes yet for a regeneration.… 😞
@Snowphoenix.
“Don’t believe that I often feel how is portrayed in my verse, it’s flung out of my brain when dopamine surged a bit at the moment or out of my OCD ambition to win “debate”.
When my serotonin is low (like now after a sad dream), I’d feel more blue than how is perceived in your words. Your vision and mine are just two blind men’s sentiments from two different perspectives at two particular given time — all valid and correct.”
Thank you for your response poem to mine. I like the imagery you’re playing around with, and the variations you’d like to introduce…
Allow me to write an eighth version:
In Eternal Flux
After breathtaking fireworks,
Phoenix burns to ash, then
Rises again from the East,
Making the poor dragon dizzy.
Mothers tell daughters: “Spread your wings!”
Fathers send offshoots on grand quests.
Old women loiter by cauldrons.
And old men retire to mend boots.
Young couples court in fields of green,
Make promises in evening’s still-warm light,
Harvest passionfruit among coloured leaves
And hibernate once cold winds set in.
Weary of noble deeds,
Knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sick of moonbeams,
Maidens plant exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant soaring.
Men and women are iron and wood.
Men and women are earth and fire.
Joined together in shared destiny?
Transported by the same heavenly lyre?
Call me an idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods smirking, eyebrows raised.
I know well the harp of ecstasy.
I feel that you really have two different themes running through your poem. On the one hand, I think you want to celebrate the ecstasy of falling in love. On the other hand, I think you want to say something about rebirth. I think these two themes are in tension with each other in the poem, and this tension is hinted at, but never resolved. I think sadness, as you point out, does have something to do with any final resolution. I think the same tension would of course be present in the original poem I wrote for you. 🤔
I like the “five men and elephant” fable you refer to, and agree that we are appreciating and/or describing different parts of the elephant! But good work overall. Very good work. I’m impressed. 😜
The theme of my poem in response to yours —
1. Celebrating falling in love at all ages.
2. Everything is impermanent, matters and states of mind die soon or later, sadly.
3. Boredom could be reduced or killed by a broad variety of physical and mental activities.
4. Death of all forms always comes, so does rebirth. They circle end to end, thus In Etneral Flux; without one there won’t be the other.
I just could not help edit it again, thank you for spinning my head. Here is the 9th edition:
In Eternal Flux
After breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ash, then
rises again from the East,
spinning the panting dragon’s dizzy tail.
Mothers tell daughters: “Spread your wings!”
Fathers send offshoots on grand quests.
Refined women whisper their glorified tales,
Wise men hum their bragged conquests.
Courted in fields of green are young and renewed.
Coupled in summer dance in the blinding Glimmer.
Harvest passionfruit among colored leaves, then
hibernate once cold winds set in.
“Weary of noble deeds”,
knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of moonbeams,
maiden root exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant soaring.
Men and women are iron and wood.
Women and men are fire and earth.
Embraced each other in shared destiny
Interwoven together by the heavenly lyre.
Call me an idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods smirking, eyebrows raised.
I play well the harp of ecstasy.
The 9th Edition, 9/27/2023
Have to change a couple of words again.
*******
In Eternal Flux
After breathtaking fireworks
Phoenix burns to ash, then
rises again from the East,
spinning the panting dragon’s dizzy tail.
Mothers tell daughters: “Spread your wings!”
Fathers send offshoots on grand quests.
Silver haired women whisper their glorified tales,
Bald headed men hum their bragged conquests.
Courted in fields of green are young and renewed.
Coupled in summer promise in the blinding glimmer.
Harvest passionfruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate once cold winds set in.
“Weary of noble deeds”,
knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of moonbeams,
maiden root exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter chant soaring.
Men and women are iron and wood.
Women and men are fire and earth.
Embraced each other in shared destiny
Interwoven together by the heavenly lyre.
Call me an idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods smirking, eyebrows raised.
I play well the harp of ecstasy.
*******
The 10th edition
@Snowphoenix.
It’s only getting better. A couple of tiny tweaks to bring out the themes you want… 😉
In Eternal Flux
After breathtaking fireworks,
Phoenix burns to ash, then
Rises again from the East.
The dragon goes into a tailspin.
Mothers tell daughters: “Spread your wings!”
Fathers send offshoots on grand quests.
Silver-haired women whisper tales of glory.
Bald-headed men brag of conquests.
Couples of all ages court in fields of green,
Glimmer at each other in gold light,
Harvest passionfruit among coloured leaves,
Hibernate once cold winds set in.
Renewed by noble deeds,
Knights pull out ugly weeds.
Energised by moonbeams,
Maidens sow exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of winter soar, chanting.
Men and women are iron and wood.
Women and men are earth and fire.
They embrace each other in shared delight,
Only to burn to ash on Love’s pyre.
Call me an idiotic daydreamer.
Laugh at my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods smirking, eyebrows raised.
I play well the harp of ecstasy.
All Set! 🔨
Salute to your original inspiration, Sammy! 🏆
Keep coming!
@Sammy
I promise this is last edit — told you about my fuss over word choices, especially in verse. I usually stops anything after number 7 is involved.
**********
In Perpetual Flux
Only after breathtaking fireworks
phoenix burns to the ash, then
rise again from the East.
Her red gaze spins dragon’s head over tail
to hatch a batch of dizzy eggs.
Mothers release daughters to harden the wings.
Fathers send sprigs to their destined quests.
Women refine to fuse and muse,
men toughen to kindle and burn.
Court in spring fields, young and renewed.
Couple in summer, bathed in genomic glimmers.
Harvest passionfruit among colored leaves.
Hibernate under winter’s icy breath.
“Weary of noble deeds”,
knights pull out ugly weeds.
Sicken of moonbeams,
maiden plant deep exotic seeds.
Flowers of springtime vanish.
Plants of snowy days bloom.
Nightingales of summer retreat.
Eagles of chilly wind chant in soaring.
“The one you want won’t always shine.”
Then alter your gaze with refreshed eyes.
Men & women are iron and wood,
women & men fire and earth.
Interwoven by mingled insights,
they rock-n-roll in heaven.
Call me idiotic daydreamer.
Mock my fantasy in pitched tones.
I see gods’ raised eyebrows in delight.
I hear harp of ecstasy melodically
stirring the strong heart beats.
*****
The 7th edition
With debating in general, I found it is easier to do the older I get. I am ready to face obstacles and confront issues. I am not afraid of myself or others, as when I was younger. For instance, if in my 20’s I was limerent for someone and found out what limerence was I would never have told my wife. I would have hid my shame and took it to my grave.
But at 46 as soon as I learned about limerence I knew I needed to tell her. Partly for the sake of our marriage but also for the simple fact that I needed to confront her and myself so that we could overcome this.
Even in innocuous things I find that I will debate with her more than when I was younger. The Last Crusade is the best Indiana Jones movie. If you read Bram Stocker’s Dracula I will read Twilight. (This many years since that book came out and I read it and she still hasn’t read Dracula smh) We are pretty well on polar opposites on religion and politics. But we can debate that too. Two things I would never have much spoken up about when younger.
“In my COO, there is no neutral translation for “debate”, it’s equivalent to negative “argument” which is considered to automatically ruin that “sublime” harmony.”
Snowphoenix’s statement here is what got me thinking. For me the importance of debating, especially with Momma, is that it IS a debate and NOT an argument. And at a younger age I think that was part of the problem. I equated debate with argument. Coupled with never seeing my folks fight, much less raise their voices to each other, I shied away from anything I thought might upset her.
After the disclosure of my limerence and explanation to her and seeing her reaction, and even how she is still dealing with it now, that confrontation sometimes has to supersede feelings. Something I am always trying to protect her from getting hurt.
But like other addictions, I knew I couldn’t manage this one on my own. I sometimes can’t a frickin year later. So I tend to, unlike young me, talk it out with her. Debate if you will, if I am improving. Or am I backtracking? Before we use to fight about Morgan. Now my wife is able to, and I too without trying to justify it, debate my recovery of limerence and her.
I look back at all the times I should have taken on confrontation head on and would have got a better result in those instances. But … water under the bridge. Since I saw this online, I do not know if the siting is accurate but I saw that David Bowie said “Aging is just the process of becoming to person you always should have been.”
@Adam
My point is that “demonizing debate” in my COO represses one’s authentic thoughts and emotions — one’s colorful, evolving humanity, for the sake of external, superficial harmony, which often cultivate inner volcano on some individuals. So once one could repress no longer, volcano would erupt causing not just detrimental arguments, but possibly damaging violences.
In the West, critical thinking and cool-headed debate is highly encouraged and supported for growth of individual and progress the society — all colleges have critical thinking courses, debate clubs, UN model debating delegates… I found it’s so liberating and even inspiring while rationally debating with others; it’s learned skills and writing is induce more calmness. After debating or confrontation, I obtain tremendous inner peace, regardless winning or losing; the therapeutic benefits come from courageously expressing one’s inner self — no absolute right or wrong.
David Bowie’s words are very organic and wise!
“Snowphoenix’s statement here is what got me thinking. For me the importance of debating, especially with Momma, is that it IS a debate and NOT an argument. And at a younger age I think that was part of the problem. I equated debate with argument. Coupled with never seeing my folks fight, much less raise their voices to each other, I shied away from anything I thought might upset her.”
@Adam.
I think the difference between a debate and an argument is one makes a sincere attempt to leave one’s ego at the door in genuine debating. One is not trying to settle old scores or shore up one’s own shaky self-esteem. One doesn’t have a hidden agenda. A debate is a pleasurable exchange of ideas. The focus, ideally, should be on the quality of the ideas, and not the character of speakers. 😉
to Adam and Mila, Nisor, ABCD and all, I start a new post here as comments getting lost and difficult to read. So please first read the link to original summary of my f2f encounter with long distance LO and Adams reply beneath.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/coffeehouse-managing-competing-demands/#comment-46603
My Reply to Adams comment on
Sept 22nd:-
Thank you Adam , I like how you always relate your responses on what you know, and don’t pretend to have all the answers or solutions.
I’m still coming down from my trip away and very up and down with the whole damned limerence thing. I’m of course replaying the meetings in my mind.
Funny you talk of age, his SO looked much older than me or LO (and I’m a few years older than LO ). most folks including LO don’t know my age, I don’t share it freely as I’m a lot older than I look, although I’m sure this limerence is gonna age me soon !! Ha ha. I’m not vain though as a big round baby face looks younger but not necessarily beautiful!
I replay our departure and wish I had kissed him on the cheek goodbye or touched his hand. That’s very selfish thing to say I know. I was trying to be on best behaviour at the time, and if I had done those things I would probably regret it. It’s just the whole one moment in time lost forever thing! If I saw him more often Im sure it wouldn’t be so damned intense. I know my situation is the highest setting for both uncertainty + barriers. Anyway my feelings for him are now a bit more real after our meeting ( less pedestal, less mad passion). But more caring and loving- oh my, is that worse?! I am really going to try for long distance friendship which will anyway mean LC and hopefully feelings become more platonic. But at some point I do realise that I may have to evaluate my true intentions / feelings.
IMHO,
(Caution: I‘m a bit blunt today. I don’t mean it mean, I just care.)
Sounds as if this visit just threw you more into limerence.
I recognize the signs because I know them from myself- your description of the visit sounds a bit like a romantic film (chance encounter at the stage, waving goodbye in the street, crying on the plane), and I can feel how you scrutinize his every move (heart emoji, eye contact, waving etc) because you hope they are a sign that he cares more than just a friend would, you go a little bit into competition with his SO and are secretly glad to see some things in your favor…
Even the turning of emotions from pedestal to more caring, I recognize that from myself. It’s not necessarily better;)
I feel you!!:)
But! Get the pink fog of emotion out of your eyes: Honestly, what do you wish to happen? Signs of affection, of liking you that but more, and then? Will he move to your country, will you move to his? no? will you lead an online EA that keeps you from getting some real love in your real life?
I know it feels good now, you are safely back and have some memories to chew over, do that, but please let there be a time limit to that.
You will waste your precious life time pining after this guy who couldn’t invite you to a proper coffee date on your one one only visit, either because he just doesn’t care enough or because his SO would mind, both not really positive reasons.
Clear your eyes and ask yourself honestly 1. if you embellish the signs of affection from his side, 2. if you really think you only want friendship of this guy. You don’t sound like it. If you really want to turn this into a normal friendship, you have to stop the ruminating and place your mind elsewhere.
That said, I‘m no better myself.
Song of my LE (hope I manage to post it):
https://youtu.be/jb5g4UFHmfQ?feature=shared
Mila, thank you ! Allow me to read, re-read and reflect on your words of wisdom… I will respond properly in the next day or so X 💕
IMHO,
it‘s all Dr.Ls wisdom;)
It seems to finally arrive fully in my brain.
Today I‘m quite hopeful to put an end at least to my current LE soon..
Mila, Nisor, thank you both for your responses and support. It helps to have the conversation and analysis with those who understand. Blunt is good btw. Im trying to now look forwards and not chew over memories etc. Also need to be more practical , do grown-up stuff and not caught up in my own ridiculous fantasy land / movie as you said. Like you Mila I want LO in my life, no limerence. I need to break some habits and thought patterns to get there. seems like you are making progress – yey!! Keep it up and share any tips.
Thanks for the song links both. I’m trying not to listen to too much music actually, as it just fuels my limerence and thoughts of LO. There are 2 songs that remind me of LO too much, it sets me back just thinking of them !
Hi IMHO,
Glad meeting is over? Indeed, friends invite you for lunch or supper when visiting their country, it’s a courtesy. Of course it
must hurt plenty saying goodbye and not knowing if you’ll ever see LO again, it stings! I haven’t seen mine in fifty years and it feels like it was yesterday when I saw him last!!! Ouch it dammed hurts…
About comparing yourself to his SO, yep, that’s normal, limerents and non limerents do it all the time. I never saw my lo’s first, second or third (and last) wives, lovers in between, and I hope they’re nothing compared to me. ha, ha. I hope they’re fat, loud, sloppy etc, that he got them just because he had no other choice, that what he found in me, he’s been trying to find it in them but he can’t! That I’m the best he ever had!!! That how selfish I’m… if I think otherwise I’d feel rejected and I don’t want to harbor that feeling in me, it will make me depressed . I have to look after myself right?
It’s all right to cry, there’s no other way to get it out of your system. It’s sad, very sad , and things are in limbo for you. You got to examine yourself and see if this LO is going to wither you away… not worth it. Got to move on, I believe.
There’s a song I like , to compare me with los So.
Singer Lou Rowls ,
“You’ll never find someone to love you like I do.” Look it up it has a nice swing and lyrics.
Now, You take good care of yourself. A tight hug for you. Cheer up, tomorrow is another day!💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽❤️
Correction:
Song : “You’ll never find another love like mine”
Lou Rawls sings
Hi Mila,
I love the song, beautiful!
Makes me very sentimental and remember my last time with my beloved LO…
Have a great weekend
@Snowphoenix.
You left me some comments in the “Incompatible Limerent Objects” post, which were drifting toward general conversation, so I’ll respond to them here and hopefully you will find them.
I think you wanted me not to mix metaphors when talking about limerence? I was talking about mountain climbing and then I segued into talking about shipwrecks. So I’ll try to be consistent in the following observations regarding limerence.
Being limerent for someone is like a climbing a mountain. However, one is not climbing this mountain in broad daylight. One is in a foreign country, on holidays perhaps. One hears a rap on one’s door at 2am, an invitation to scale a nearby summit. One accepts this invitation. One will reach the summit at dawn, and perhaps witness a gorgeous sunrise if one is lucky. But if one goes up the mountain in darkness, one must go down the mountain in daylight, because dawn has broken.
In other words, coming out of limerence is like walking down a mountain in broad daylight – a mountain that one has hitherto only seen shrouded in darkness. One might be much less impressed with the mountain in broad daylight i.e. dopamine isn’t making every little detail seem sublimely beautiful. Whatever glorious impressions one formed in one’s mind during ascent must now yield to reality.
Your other complaint: I sometimes blend dream imagery with other imagery, making my writing confusing at times. I’m sorry for blending dream imagery with everyday imagery, but I think limerence is a kind of liminal (threshold) state, in which one is half-dreaming and half-awake, so it’s only natural that dream imagery should begin to pervade all things, and colour one’s consciousness.
While in limerence, one can no longer at will shift gears between “dream state” and “awakened state”, because the boundaries between the two states have become blurred, even in the mind of the limerent, and that’s why limerence is called an “altered state”. One isn’t experiencing reality in the same way other people are. One is perhaps having a heightened experienced of reality, and also a somewhat confused experience of reality. Objectivity pretty much goes out the window. 😉
Last, I said I was a natural flirt. Perhaps I should rephrase that, because what I wanted to say was/is actually a lot more subtle, and reveals something about the sexes. I’ll tell you a sweet little story from my life to illustrate what I mean.
Today, I ate breakfast in a little cafe I frequent. The woman behind the counter asked me what I wanted to eat. Then she guessed I wanted grilled tomato with my meal. I didn’t want grilled tomato. I was actually planning to ask for wilted spinach. However, I’m a very polite fellow, so I told the woman I wanted wilted spinach, but she was welcome to pick what item ultimately ended up on my plate. I didn’t plan this response – it just flew out of my mouth, without premeditation.
In the end, I got the wilted spinach I actually wanted. However, the woman came out with my coffee several minutes later, all flustered. She told me my comment i.e. “you pick” was actually really funny to her and made her blush. I laughed politely in response to this revelation, and the woman went away.
Now, it was never my intention to flirt with this woman. I think the last time I made a female blush was twenty-six years ago, when I was still in high school, and I asked some girl to be my Valentine. My comment to the waitress was simply me being super-agreeable, ridiculously easy-going. Really, what I was saying was: “I don’t care what I eat. As long if it’s edible, I’ll eat it. Heck, even if it’s not edible, I’ll probably still eat it.” (I was being a stereotypical insufferable boor of a man).
So why did the woman interpret my comment as vaguely flirtatious, or at least unusual enough to elicit a blush? Why did the shortness of my reply, the possible hint of anger or impatience in my voice, excite her on some level and not offend her or push her away? Was I giving off some kind of vibe without knowing it?
Here’s my theory about the woman’s reaction, because it’s interesting in purely sociological terms. I believe that men have a “romantic imagination”, for want of a better term, and women have a “romantic imagination”, for want of a better term. Usually, whatever it is that lights up a man’s romantic imagination isn’t the same thing as whatever it is that lights up a woman’s romantic imagination. In other words, put very bluntly but at the same time very respectfully, what a woman finds erotic isn’t necessarily the same thing as a man finds erotic.
In other words, when it comes to Eros, men and women have different triggers. By telling this woman she could pick out my breakfast for me, I was accidentally pushing some of her emotional buttons, and activating her romantic imagination. However, I really didn’t find anything about our interaction exciting.
As an empathic person, I can see how the woman may have read into my comments, however. In a way, I was sort of inviting her to play an almost girlfriend/wife role in my life. I was signalling to her that I didn’t really mind her crossing my boundaries and that I trusted her judgement. None of the above is remotely titillating to the average male brain, but to a human being blessed with a female brain, it might be a tiny bit intriguing, especially if one likes the man in question.
I think I have had difficulties in the past getting along with women because male psychology can sometimes be quite crude whereas female psychology can be quite sophisticated. For a man to be successful in attracting and keeping a woman as a long-term mate, he has to have some understanding of women’s desires. Or, alternatively, the woman has to be extremely forgiving by nature, and reconcile herself to the fact that her long-term male mate doesn’t understand her desires.
Long story short: I think men’s “mating triggers” are primarily physical, at least initially, whereas women’s “mating triggers” are invariably relational. When a given woman imagines herself in a relationship with a given man, her romantic circuitry lights up. She starts to get excited, invested. Men, at least in the beginning, don’t usually pick up on relational triggers, or respond to relational triggers, and hence miscommunicate with women – even available women. 😉
@Sammy,
Thank you for taking time to answer my already forgotten message left a few days ago. I’m writing storm here nowadays, unable to remember all of what I’ve contemplated and expressed. Hope they’re consistent, as I am also trying to sort of my still jammed, muddled mind.
“In other words, coming out of limerence is like walking down a mountain in broad daylight – a mountain that one has hitherto only seen shrouded in darkness. One might be much less impressed with the mountain in broad daylight i.e. dopamine isn’t making every little detail seem sublimely beautiful. Whatever glorious impressions one formed in one’s mind during ascent must now yield to reality.”
That’s beautiful and accurate metaphor to describe an experience of limerence. Then, can we still appreciate or even love what the objective mountain is under the sunlight? Isn’t it a part of nature after all?
“I’m sorry for blending dream imagery with everyday imagery, but I think limerence is a kind of liminal (threshold) state, in which one is half-dreaming and half-awake, so it’s only natural that dream imagery should begin to pervade all things, and colour one’s consciousness.”
If one is already OUT of limerence — not in that altered mental state, looking back and writing about the experience, wouldn’t the writing need to “objectively” describe dream scenes or dream quality of limerence, instead of still a sort “living“ in or swinging”between dreams and reality? In another word, don’t writers (or artists)need to be observers, presenting their writings (paintings) to readers as “logical” as possible? Some modern literature genre has that dream quality as a part of writing, but limerence is already confusing enough in each unique case, so if not “rationally” portrayed in distance, then even a limerent reader may get confused. But I may be wrong on this.
“While in limerence, one can no longer at will shift gears between “dream state” and “awakened state”, because the boundaries between the two states have become blurred, even in the mind of the limerent, and that’s why limerence is called an “altered state”. One isn’t experiencing reality in the same way other people are. One is perhaps having a heightened experienced of reality, and also a somewhat confused experience of reality. Objectivity pretty much goes out the window. “
Totally true, that’s why I’m still worried about how logical my mind is at present, since I’m still in the last leg of LE. But you’re already OUT, right? We are here to trust and learn from your insights, in writing, that are clearly depicted.
Last, I said I was a natural flirt. Perhaps I should rephrase that, because what I wanted to say was/is actually a lot more subtle, and reveals something about the sexes.”
Your story of ordering food is very vivid and convincing of your points, I’d love your flirt in this scenario as well. Besides her female brain, I think you might have also provoked her motherly instinct that wants to take care of anyone, especially attractive sex of one’s interest, who is willing to listen and submit to her judgment. It’s an indirect, tasteful flattery, showing you liked her.
“In other words, put very bluntly but at the same time very respectfully, what a woman finds erotic isn’t necessarily the same thing as a man finds erotic.”
“In other words, when it comes to Eros, men and women have different triggers. “
It’s a hard-learned truth for me, due to my nurtured or “coerced” masculinity. I felt embarrassed or “sissy” to think or behave “womanly”, despite I look quite feminine. I was confused and sometimes repelled by a lot of “erotic” looks directed towards me. Before coming to LwL recently, I barely knew let alone understood the science behind lust, attraction, and attachment.
“For a man to be successful in attracting and keeping a woman as a long-term mate, he has to have some understanding of women’s desires. Or, alternatively, the woman has to be extremely forgiving by nature, and reconcile herself to the fact that her long-term male mate doesn’t understand her desires.”
Yes. Without male’s understanding of women’s psychology, and willingness to grow and renew, and without women’s compromise, forgiveness and willingness to self learning & improving, a long-term relationship could hardly last, such as my marriage; I was so young and naive.
Long story short: I think men’s “mating triggers” are primarily physical, at least initially, whereas women’s “mating triggers” are invariably relational.”
In general, it’s true. But women’s focus could also be drawn by men’s physiques with their inexpressible aura, although they may not clearly aware of it. My eyes were somehow keen on this since young.
“When a given woman imagines herself in a relationship with a given man, her romantic circuitry lights up. She starts to get excited, invested. “
Yes, it is the imagination that lights up her romantic circuitry. We female limerents could even “create” another altered universe on this all in our head!
Men, at least in the beginning, don’t usually pick up on relational triggers, or respond to relational triggers, and hence miscommunicate with women – even available women.
In general, men are more visual, aloof and possessive, instead of relational. Only a few with their creative streaks or talents are highly sensitive, imaginary, and relational, shown in their artistic creation, like “fussy” Proust.
@Snowphoenix.
“Then, can we still appreciate or even love what the objective mountain is under the sunlight? Isn’t it a part of nature after all?”
Dunno. Depends if mountains are something you appreciate in general, or if you’re only climbing the mountain to get to the sunrise i.e. the reward the tour guide promised you. (In other words, what’s important to you? The task or the reward? If there’s no reward, would you still wish to complete the task? Would you still find the task intrinsically rewarding?) 🤔
“If one is already OUT of limerence — not in that altered mental state, looking back and writing about the experience, wouldn’t the writing need to “objectively” describe dream scenes or dream quality of limerence, instead of still a sort “living“ in or swinging”between dreams and reality?”
“But you’re already OUT, right?”
Well, in all fairness, maybe I’m not completely OUT of limerence. But, the way I see it, I’m OUT enough to regain a feeling of equilibrium, a feeling of inner peace, a feeling of secure emotional footing. I’m OUT enough to feel that I am in full possession of my senses. 😆
I can explain things in very practical terms, if you like. In high school, I was strongly attracted to two different young men. Perhaps both young men were my LOs. (I was limerent for the first for a time and chased him unsuccessfully before transferring quite unintentionally to the second. I remained fixated on the second until quite recently despite prolonged no contact).
Limerence is compulsory longing. I no longer experience compulsory longing for either male. Both young men (now much-older men) are married. Both men have families I would imagine, and careers, and community ties. I’m happy they’re married. I’m happy they have families. I don’t feel like I have “unfinished business” with either gentleman. 😉
In other words, I say I’m OUT of limerence (at least for these two specific males) because I now feel emotionally free, emotionally liberated. I no longer feel emotionally enslaved. My thoughts don’t revolve around these two men, and the various ways I might either attract them or emulate them. The strong feeling of betrayal and bitterness I had in my mid-20s have evaporated, and been replaced with a ready sense of humour.
I suggest that I’m exiting the “altered state” of limerence for good as I age because I still spend time around charming men who are my “type” and yet the dopamine hits are few and far between. I can’t get the “high feeling” from being around attractive males who are kind to me. The desire to fantasise is greatly reduced because my brain no longer rewards fantasies with generous quantities of dopamine. I find it easy to talk to “hot guys” because nerves don’t get in the way and I can read signals okay now.
Basically, if some activity ceases to be rewarding for a given human being, that given human being will naturally cease engaging in said activity. I believe I’m exiting the altered state of limerence in the sense that the “reward centres” of my brain are no longer rewarding me for certain behaviours that previously I found very rewarding, or even exclusively rewarding. I don’t dream about LOs any more than I dream about chocolate biscuits, although I still appreciate the odd chocolate biscuit. 😆
But limerence is complicated too as a mental state. If we think of limerence as a race to be run, it’s a race with no clear starting line and no clear finish line. In other words, you don’t know EXACTLY when you began to run this race, though you might be able to hazard a pretty good guess. (Puberty?)
And you don’t know exactly when you’ve crossed the finish line either…
Limerence is a threshold state, as I said before, a liminal state. So there’s aren’t clean breaks between “pre-limerence”, “limerence”. and “post-limerence”. Just as the progression of limerence itself doesn’t feel linear to many people in the throes of it i.e. there’s a lot of self-questioning, a lot of mental back-and-forth, a lot of going around in circles, etc.
Let’s use another metaphor. Limerence is a forest and limerents get themselves lost in that forest. But most limerents can’t say when exactly they left the open field and entered the forest or when exactly they left the forest and found themselves again back in the field, gazing up at the clear blue sky. 😉
Maybe it was a misty evening the evening the limerent wandered into the forest? Maybe the limerent didn’t notice all those tall trees closing in around her, and darkness falling? And vice versa, of course. Maybe the limerent left the forest one foggy morning and didn’t notice the grass until he miraculously stopped bumping into tree stumps every three seconds?
Honestly, though, I don’t think I could exit the altered state at will, even if I wanted to, when i was younger, because I feel my brain was still maturing. I feel the immaturity of my brain and limerence were somehow linked. That is to say, up until age 40, I was still seeing the world and other people in a childish/childlike way despite no longer chronologically being a child.
“Some modern literature genre has that dream quality as a part of writing, but limerence is already confusing enough in each unique case, so if not “rationally” portrayed in distance, then even a limerent reader may get confused. But I may be wrong on this.”
I don’t know if limerence can be captured objectivity in art. I think writers can portray characters experiencing infatuation. I think infatuation can inspire some people to create creative works, which may or may not contain limerence-related themes. Maybe an LO an inspire a character so vivid (or so irritating) that said character gets to live on in posterity… 🙄
Limerence isn’t something that I’ve sought to portray objectively. Limerence is not something I seek to write about in retrospect, although sometimes, to other people, my writing might seem to have that intent. I certainly don’t know everything about limerence. If anything, limerence is something I’ve written myself THROUGH, as far as poetry is concerned. In the very act of writing itself, I throw off the shackles of obsession, one by one. But, of course, there are a lot of false starts and a lot of missteps. One can never obtain absolute closure. Perhaps closure is really the wrong aim?
Actually, I usually write about things which at same point have inspired feelings of ecstasy in me, because the ecstasy makes those things seem special/meaningful to me, if not to other people. “Ecstasy” seems to be my guide when choosing things to write about, and not limerence per se.
“Totally true, that’s why I’m still worried about how logical my mind is at present …”
I wouldn’t worry too much about being logical if you’re still quite a young person. You have plenty of time to grow up. And maybe certain parts of limerence should be enjoyed in moderation, because the dazzling array of emotions won’t come again, and you will never live life this vividly again. Having said that, if a given infatuation is causing you distress, or if you feel a particular LO is a wildly inappropriate choice, you need to address that in a way that causes minimal disruption to your life overall. 🤔
“(In other words, what’s important to you? The task or the reward? If there’s no reward, would you still wish to complete the task? Would you still find the task intrinsically rewarding?)
For some people, the final destination is not the reward, but the task itself. If one enjoy process of the task, then the final achievement is just a bonus. Farmers do best and enjoy planting and caring for crops, but they can only hope for harvest due to unpredictable nature, there is no guarantee. Some mental health branch advocate the rewarding process, not aims.
All of us take different train rides of life and our shared destiny is just one — graveyard. one’s better to enjoy his or her chosen train rides.
“I don’t know if limerence can be captured objectivity in art. I think writers can portray characters experiencing infatuation. I think infatuation can inspire some people to create creative works, which may or may not contain limerence-related themes. Maybe an LO can inspire a character so vivid (or so irritating) that said character gets to live on in posterity…”
I want to know your opinion on Annie Ernaux’s “Simple Passion” — a very short read, to see if it’s about a story of limerence and, why do you think, she writes out such confessional work?
“If anything, limerence is something I’ve written myself THROUGH, as far as poetry is concerned. In the very act of writing itself, I throw off the shackles of obsession, one by one”
Does Ernaux describe her passion clearly enough or write her “THROUGH” her experience? How does she throw off her “shackles of obsession”?
“One can never obtain absolute closure. Perhaps closure is really the wrong aim?”
By my own experiences, one can obtain closure through either total consummation (emotional/sexual reciprocation or marriage), transference (to another LO or a creation/invention, or starvation (due to LO’s hurtful behaviors, but not one’s involuntary choice — what one resists persists. )
“Actually, I usually write about things which at same point have inspired feelings of ecstasy in me, because the ecstasy makes those things seem special/meaningful to me, if not to other people. “Ecstasy” seems to be my guide when choosing things to write about, and not limerence per se.”
You just used the different words to describe the creative drive for Dante or Goethe — their ecstasy of seeing or knowing their LOs somewhat, regardless the latter’s non-reciprocation or even despise towards them.
“And maybe certain parts of limerence should be enjoyed in moderation, because the dazzling array of emotions won’t come again, and you will never live life this vividly again.”
That is where my fear lies.
@Snowphoenix.
“For some people, the final destination is not the reward, but the task itself. If one enjoy process of the task, then the final achievement is just a bonus.”
The idea of intrinsically rewarding tasks is an interesting one, and one that frequently stupefies me. But many things in life stupefy me. I.e. I struggle to find tasks that feel “intrinsically rewarding”.
Some teachers, for example, teach merely to collect a wage. Other teachers teach because they have a passion for the job, or feel a real affinity with the students they help, even though the pay may be mediocre.
I do find talking on LwL quite rewarding sometimes. I think it’s because I enjoy playing around with complex ideas, I have a chance to show off my knowledge and writing skills, and I’m being inspired by people from all walks of life, so there’s social recognition of some kind involved. My natural personality does seem to come out too. Maybe I’m slowly learning how to – **shudder** – be part of a group? 🤣
I think people who “love their jobs” are really plugged into the social networks connected to their jobs. It’s the relationships cultivated over time and a sense of shared purpose that ultimately prove most rewarding. Also, people probably have to believe that the work they do actually matters, and confers status. 😉
“I want to know your opinion on Annie Ernaux’s “Simple Passion” — a very short read, to see if it’s about a story of limerence and, why do you think, she writes out such confessional work?”
I haven’t read “Simple Passion”. If I were going to read it, would I have to get a copy from a library or bookshop or is it available online? What’s your initial impressions of the work? Do you feel the author is penning a confessional tale about limerence, and wonder why she’d ever consider doing something so bold? 🤔
My limerence was unrequited limerence, fruitless limerence, one-sided limerence. So when one reads my comments, one must keep that in mind. In other words, for me, it was always going to be highly desirable to “throw off the shackles of obsession”. For people in mutual limerence, the need for emancipation might not be so pressing. Some lovers might want to loiter in the warm glow of evening sun and drink deep from the well of shared ecstasy. They don’t want to wake up from the beautiful, beautiful dream. 😉
Tell me something, Snowphoenix. Does Annie Ernaux’s work, in your opinion, portray one-sided limerence or reciprocated limerence? If she portrays reciprocated limerence, I would imagine her work to be a celebration of love, no? Or does she have much more nuanced feelings regarding infatuation? I.e. does she perceive infatuation as an unqualified good or does she also explore the pain that comes with longing?
“By my own experiences, one can obtain closure through either total consummation (emotional/sexual reciprocation or marriage), transference (to another LO or a creation/invention, or starvation (due to LO’s hurtful behaviors, but not one’s involuntary choice — what one resists persists. )”
Interesting, interesting. To be completely honest, I didn’t get closure on either LE, despite the first ending due to (unintentional) transference and the second ending due to (reluctant, semi-intentional) starvation. In other words, I never got a satisfactory answer to the (never-asked) question: “I love you. And I know that you know I love you. But how do you feel about me?” 😊
If I may discuss limerence-inspired writing briefly here, I did create a character based on my LO. But it wasn’t my first LO and it wasn’t my second LO. Basically, what I did was sort of smoosh these two different men together into one person. The resulting character therefore is a composite of two different men.
I also think I poured a lot of myself into the character. I think about 80% of the character is me, which lends credence to the notion that our LOs are really just anima/animus projected outwards.
A few years ago, I met a young man who in real life seemed to be a combination of LO1 and LO2. But he didn’t become LO3. Rather, by analysing this third man, I was able to understand why I was attracted to the first two men. You could say that I projected my animus entire onto the third young men. 😁
To this day, I remain on friendly terms with this third young man, but there’s no obsession. He has the physical charms of my first LO and the intoxicating personality of my second (main) LO. But, for the longest time, I couldn’t bring myself to speak to this third young man. I used to always try to leave places when he wasn’t around, because I was too embarrassed to say hello or goodbye to him.
This third young man was quite friendly toward me always, and he persisted in his friendly overtures. Eventually, I started returning his waves and his smiles and his eye contact and his thumbs-up. Eventually, I acquired the ability to talk to him about mundane subjects. Ultimately, I also acquired the ability to mock him to his face in a way that was inoffensive somehow and which he clearly enjoyed. In other words, something that might have become a dangerous, painful obsession turned into homosocial bonding. He still has piercingly beautiful eyes, but they don’t unsettle me.
“You just used the different words to describe the creative drive for Dante or Goethe — their ecstasy of seeing or knowing their LOs somewhat, regardless the latter’s non-reciprocation or even despise towards them.”
Ah. Cool. Very interesting. I think my original intention in writing about anything that inspired ecstasy was to make sense of my sexuality. From quite early on in life, I always had a hunch that “ecstasy” and “sexuality” are somehow linked. But I couldn’t explain that link until I learned about limerence…
“That is where my fear lies.”
Limerence isn’t a choice. So you can’t really “choose” the pain. And you can’t really “choose” the feeling of aliveness that comes with the pain. The “vivid experience of reality” is nice too, but you can’t really choose that.
I was shocked when I graduated from high school and a platonic male friend told me he envied my creative writing because in my creative writing the grass is always “sparkling green”, or some such rubbish. I was a bit offended by the remark. I didn’t know what he was on about. I assumed grass looks “sparkling green” to everybody, and there’s nothing unusual about such a description.
Little did I know I was already deep in the thick of limerence, and it was altering my experience of reality. I didn’t possess the “vivid imagination” people accused me of possessing. The chemicals in my brain actually made the natural world look really beautiful to me and altered the way my eyes (and other sensory organs) took in the world. I wasn’t trying to be different. I was just … different. 🙄
@Sammy
“Some teachers, for example, teach merely to collect a wage. Other teachers teach because they have a passion for the job, or feel a real affinity with the students they help, even though the pay may be mediocre.”
I’m the latter all my life, just can’t do something fairly important that my heart is not passionate about, except for basic survival.
“I do find talking on LwL quite rewarding sometimes. I think it’s because I enjoy playing around with complex ideas, I have a chance to show off my knowledge and writing skills, and I’m being inspired by people from all walks of life, so there’s social recognition of some kind involved. My natural personality does seem to come out too. Maybe I’m slowly learning how to – **shudder** – be part of a group? “
At beginning, I was unwilling to expose my limerence in LwL, feeling so embarrassed as if I had chosen it. Then, I found I could express thus release my repressed confusions and frustration related to limerence, which led to my mental clarity, less heaviness in chest. There are also other complex, important, and LE-unrelated topics in life are discussed here, which stirred up my curiosity about my own current stands in those issues.
Writing itself is very therapeutic to me, which I already benefited from monologues with LO with little or none response in the past 2 years. With any response here, I felt heard by the fellow limerents; it’s such a relief to know that I was not alone and had not gone insane for 6 years! As personality concerned, I seemed to be always fluid, ready to upgrade or individuate. If I feel I’m already done with personal growth, then it would be the time to die.
Even without recognizing my altered mental state in limerence, I was eager to explore more aspect of SELF that was repressed or affected by cptsd. I did not want to ignorantly suffer continuously, and knew that only MYSELF could and have to find ways to battle with whatever was causing my pains, and eventually remove their roots.
Pains can come from without, but suffering are generated within and have to be removed from within. Wise, external insights could help a great deal with their different perspectives seeing and understanding the same elephant; but the hard work and efforts of curing sufferings still need to be made by oneself internally.
“I think people who “love their jobs” are really plugged into the social networks connected to their jobs.”
Mostly but not always. Few people enjoy explore outside of their professional circle for freshness or “queer” views. Curiosity, open mind, quirkiness in people often draw my attentions.
I haven’t read “Simple Passion”. If I were going to read it, would I have to get a copy from a library or bookshop or is it available online?”
You can get a kindle copy from Amazon easily. It has only 60 pages.
“What’s your initial impressions of the work? Do you feel the author is penning a confessional tale about limerence, and wonder why she’d ever consider doing something so bold?”
I was almost shocked by her authentic boldness. I read it before I knew LwL, and afterwards immediately recognized it was a limerence experience. Along with her collected works of very personal nature, she wins Nobel Prize in literature at age of 82, amazing!
“Tell me something, Snowphoenix. Does Annie Ernaux’s work, in your opinion, portray one-sided limerence or reciprocated limerence? If she portrays reciprocated limerence, I would imagine her work to be a celebration of love, no?”
It’s PA involved, yet her one-sided limerence with a married man. She first enjoyed sex as much as a woman could; (Marcia would like it), then her emotional and realistic life was almost ruined by her unaware off-set limerence, depression and neglect of the responsibilities as a single mother, a university professor, and a write. It’s her True story happened outside Paris around 1991(?).
“Or does she have much more nuanced feelings regarding infatuation? I.e. does she perceive infatuation as an unqualified good or does she also explore the pain that comes with longing?”
It’s not the kind of perceived infatuation with the typical one-side limerence, but a heated PA, casual on his side, but unintentionally serious on her side. She knows it would end soon or later and prepares for it. She thinks she could enjoy the physical consummation when it lasts, while his mental and emotional reciprocation are absent, but limerence sneaked in without her knowing what and why was happening … no more spoiler!
“In other words, I never got a satisfactory answer to the (never-asked) question: “I love you. And I know that you know I love you. But how do you feel about me?”
What would you feel if the answer is YES or NO? What do you think you need an answer for? To validate our existence? To boost our ego? Why would LO’s emotions towards us be so vitally important to our mental health? I ask myself these questions, and am not sure whether it’s wise to ask.
Whether to disclose or close the current LE, I don’t think I need (of course I want) to ask LO your question, what’s the point? Even a favorable answer would not change the dead end dynamic. My ego might be boosted for a little while — 3 days maximum, but I would still feel terribly lonely, probably lonelier, without his pair-bonding with me. If his answer is unfavorable, it should not devalue my personality or existence; it just means I was shot by Eros’ arrow for him, but not him for me — call it a “fate” for convenience. Am I mature enough to accept such a fate in life, parallel to what happened between me and all my previous suitors and LOs (in 2 digits)?
“If I may discuss limerence-inspired writing briefly here, I did create a character based on my LO. But it wasn’t my first LO and it wasn’t my second LO. Basically, what I did was sort of smoosh these two different men together into one person. The resulting character therefore is a composite of two different men.”
I don’t see any problems in that. The story should be focused more on your feelings and thoughts, and roots of your healthy affections and limerence. Remember what DrL says: all our LOs are just bystanders serving as a trigger or mirror, triggering or mirroring something unknown or “mysterious” within us previously. LE forces us to deeply examine ourselves within: Who am I now? Where am I heading? Why and How have I slipped into this unwanted, volcanic limerence?
“I also think I poured a lot of myself into the character. I think about 80% of the character is me, which lends credence to the notion that our LOs are really just anima/animus projected outwards.”
As a Jungian follower, I thought of that, too, and even unknowingly (of such notion) told LO once that he might somehow present my Animus if I felt such familiarity upon spotting him for 5 seconds. But in reality, I don’t know his inside enough, so unable to tell whether he indeed represents my animus. In some aspects, he appears very different from me. He is absolutely evasive towards all my meaningful inquirers, but seemed not get offended.
“Rather, by analysing this third man, I was able to understand why I was attracted to the first two men. You could say that I projected my animus entire onto the third young men. “
So you are saying that if someone clearly represents your animus, by your analytic👁️, you could avoid falling in limerence with him?
“I think my original intention in writing about anything that inspired ecstasy was to make sense of my sexuality. From quite early on in life, I always had a hunch that “ecstasy” and “sexuality” are somehow linked. But I couldn’t explain that link until I learned about limerence….”
Without knowledge about neurochemical aspect of limerence, I always thought “ecstasy” is connected to spirit, not sex because the latter in my COO was linked to animal or “evil” craving.
“Limerence isn’t a choice. So you can’t really “choose” the pain. And you can’t really “choose” the feeling of aliveness that comes with the pain. The “vivid experience of reality” is nice too, but you can’t really choose that.”
Now, I know limerence, like other feelings including pains, isn’t choice. But Buddhism sees that while pains are not a choice, suffering is: if one does not passively react to those inadvertent physical and psychological pains from within and without, then sufferings could be avoided.
Also, another argument stands that all reality is perceived by mind, so only subjective; therefore, two subjectivities toward a same matter could vastly different in the mind of our LOs and ourselves. Never assume they’re same or even similar.
“I wasn’t trying to be different. I was just … different. “
The same here. We need shamelessly embrace our own “differences” while respect that of others.
“One’s LO may be a good person. One’s LO may be a bad person. One’s LO may be a so-so person. It really doesn’t matter what kind of person one’s LO is. What matters is this person – the LO – has taken on a staggering “emotional significance” in the life and mind of the limerent.
True. In my case, it’s not even LO, but the Phantom of LO, or my unreasonable desire for LO, that “has taken on a staggering emotional significance” in my life. Sometimes it felt like that LO did not enter my conscious life, but he came from my unconscious somehow through the glimmer — it’s that degree of familiarity and alienation! It also “lends credence to the notion that our LOs are really just anima/animus projected outwards.”
“In one-sided limerence, the feelings aren’t returned, so the limerent doesn’t have a staggering emotional significance for the LO, and the LO may not be aware of the emotional significance they have for the limerent.”
Well, I think even when the limerent’s emotions aren’t returned, some of us still have a staggering emotional significance for LO, but we hide and repress our emotions. Most of LOs, in LwL, seem to be aware of “the emotional significance they have installed in their limerent”, because most of us are poor concealers or over-sharing confessors. Plus, our eyes have revealed a lot what we fear to expose.
“Even if disclosure takes place in the second scenario, the LO may not understand the implications of the limerent’s disclosure i.e. they still may not grasp the strength of the limerent’s “crush”, the intensity of desire involved, the size of the stakes. (Hint: winning LO’s affection is the only thing that matters to the limerent).”
As long as LOs are ignorant of the conception of limerence, they WILL not “grasp the strength of the limerent’s “crush”…. If I choose to disclose to LO about my limerence with him, I’ll have to give him a copy of DrL’s book to read first.
“In making any decisions, I think it’s very important for limerents to remember that they may not hold the same emotional significance for their LOs as their LOs hold for them. “
As Marcia has repeatedly point out, if LO were in mutual loving affection for limerent, she or he would have already acted out, whether barriers existed or not, like what my middle-school classmate attempted. If they have done nothing, not even hint, then just believe they don’t have that glimmer or our dreamed affections for us limerents.
“The biggest mistake limerents can make is assuming that both parties are on the same page regarding emotional significance and assign the exact same significance to the “bond”.
As a semi Stoic, I don’t make such an assumption with realistic LO, I take the worst for a fact and practice how to cope with such an assumed fact. But the created Phantom is on the same page with me doing whatever I have wished, and has even inspire me to make friends and bonds with you guys here!
@Snowphoenix.
“Then, I found I could express thus release my repressed confusions and frustration related to limerence, which led to my mental clarity, less heaviness in chest.”
I’ve been feeling “less heaviness in chest” lately. I think the feeling of “less heaviness” comes from (a) identifying and sharing one’s emotions about limerence, and (b) admitting that one had a dream that didn’t quote come true. 🤔
“It’s PA involved, yet her one-sided limerence with a married man. She first enjoyed sex as much as a woman could; (Marcia would like it), then her emotional and realistic life was almost ruined by her unaware off-set limerence, depression and neglect of the responsibilities as a single mother, a university professor, and a write. It’s her True story happened outside Paris around 1991(?).”
That sounds like a very powerful piece of writing. There’s a real interaction between two people, but it means so much more to one party. So, yes, plenty of room for nuance and plenty of room for angst. 😉
“What would you feel if the answer is YES or NO? What do you think you need an answer for? To validate our existence? To boost our ego? Why would LO’s emotions towards us be so vitally important to our mental health? I ask myself these questions, and am not sure whether it’s wise to ask.”
Interesting. Nobody has ever asked me how I’d feel if the answer was yes or no. I don’t think the answers would have much to do with ego. Nor would the answer be vital to my mental health. I think I’d have a purely emotional response.
If the answer were NO, I’d feel extremely hurt, and probably cry nonstop for a couple of days.
If the answer were YES, I’d probably feel intensely happy for a period of time. But eventually I’d have to come down off cloud nine. The burst of sunshine wouldn’t last indefinitely…
“How have I slipped into this unwanted, volcanic limerence?”
I think, because I was experiencing limerence from a young age, I thought everybody experienced limerence. I assumed that everybody gets feelings of ecstasy and the triggers for that ecstasy must be pretty similar. (What makes me “high” makes other people “high” too). I assumed that limerence is how the world works and that everybody is having these very powerful emotions all the time.
So how did I slip into unwanted, volcanic limerence? Naivety, I guess. Not spending enough time talking about feelings with friends and family. Lack of education around romantic relationships. 🤔
“So you are saying that if someone clearly represents your animus, by your analytic👁️, you could avoid falling in limerence with him?”
At my current age, yes. In the past, no. I think, when I was younger, males who represented parts of my animus triggered feelings of ecstasy when I encountered them. Usually very attractive fellows, but with a mischievous streak. Tricksters. Pranksters. Jokers. Clowns.
“Without knowledge about neurochemical aspect of limerence, I always thought “ecstasy” is connected to spirit, not sex because the latter in my COO was linked to animal or “evil” craving.”
I connected “ecstasy” to “pleasure” and I connected “sexuality” to “pleasure”, so “pleasure” for me was always going to be the common denominator, not evil craving. “Ecstasy” IS sexual pleasure – but it’s sexual pleasure that takes place primarily in the mind.
“We need shamelessly embrace our own “differences” while respect that of others.”
I think the very notion of “difference” has always produced deep feelings of shame in me. I don’t just feel ashamed when people tell me I’m different in a bad way. I also feel ashamed when people tell me I’m different in a good way. It seems that I’m afraid of being “distinguished” in any way because being “distinguished” might provoke the envy of others. For all the bravado and confidence that I might appear to have, I’m actually very unsure of myself. 🤔
“As a semi Stoic, I don’t make such an assumption with realistic LO, I take the worst for a fact and practice how to cope with such an assumed fact.”
Ah. I always thought of myself as a Stoic. But maybe I’m a good deal more emotional (and more emotionally-driven) than I thought… “Stoicism” is my social mask. The real me is a “hot mess”. 🤣
“Let’s use two terms for both sexes: Madonna and Marilyn Monroe vs. Jesus and Casanova.”
Hahaha! Very good. Very good. I particularly like the “Marilyn” reference. 😁
“Very true! But what about spiritual ecstasy? What about emotional affairs? How do we count mental and emotional transgressions? One’s body is present biologically functioning, but the mind — the true Eros, is elsewhere blasting ecstasy with the secret LO? Isn’t it considered betrayal? Isn’t everything occurs in mind always prior to any realistic actions?”
I believe that spiritual ecstasy is real. I think I experienced spiritual ecstasy with both my LOs, the second more than the first. But no physical affair took place. And both males would deny an emotional affair taking place. For them, the bond was just friendship, plain and simple. For me, the bond was something spiritual, something mystical, something from another plane . 🙂
One only questions the morality of infatuation when one feels betrayed by the actions of an LO, or struggles to cope with particularly bad mood swings. I don’t think people always act on what’s going on inside their heads – especially if they’re getting large hits of dopamine anyway from small interactions.
But maybe there is a point where one wants more, even insists on more, and becomes resentful if more isn’t forthcoming i.e. a committed relationship. Perhaps the most awkward situation of all occurs when the limerent looks to LO for more and the LO feigns ignorance of the limerent’s ever-deepening attraction/attachment.
“Thank YOU for your energetic, respectful, provocative conversations and debates with an immigrant! Our dialogues make me feel psychologically needed and appreciated — a deep satisfaction a cptsd person could have ever hoped for!”
It has been a pleasure. I’ve enjoyed hearing a what a woman thinks about a great number of things. Somehow, you’ve helped me connect with my emotions and stay connected to my emotions.
If you trace the trajectory of our conversations, you will no doubt see my tone over time has become less intellectual, less provocative, less cynical, less “witty”, and more sombre and reflective. Perhaps literary references, provocation, and repartee are all just defence mechanisms, designed to shield the self from too much probing? But what is a heart if the contents of said heart can never be shared? 🙂
Snow and Sammy,
On your October 1st comments, ah , you’re going deeper and deeper on this subject of limererence and it’s painful emotions …
“ Why would LO’s emotions towards us be so vitally important to our mental health?”
“I ask myself these questions, and am not sure whether it’s wise to ask.” …
“ One only questions the morality of infatuation when one feels betrayed by the actions of an LO.”
“But what is a heart if the contents of said heart can never be shared.”
I’m trembling as I write here! My heart is wildly racing fast because of all that is exposed of the human brain, mind and feelings, emotions! There’s more… You are only touching the tender/good and healthy side of it…. For if we go to the most mysterious darkest
places, oh boy, you don’t want to go there!
I have once caught myself thinking of how I would like to get into LO’s mind, or becoming LO myself!!! What’s that? How extreme is that???
I shudder at the thought!
Sometime ago I read “ Oscar Wilde’s “The Ballad of Reading Goal”, ( don’t recall much) but I came across this strong wordings that stayed engraved in my mind: “For each man kills the thing he loves.”
Got to read it to understand the strength of these “unwanted volcanic “ feelings. I say no more…
Hugs to you both, troublemakers…
Nisor,
“I have once caught myself thinking of how I would like to get into LO’s mind, or becoming LO myself!!! What’s that? How extreme is that??? I shudder at the thought!”
Only once? Ok, I never wanted to be her but I wanted to get inside her head. At its worst, I turned that into a second career. LO #4 is a self-proclaimed INTJ. As an ENTJ with a pretty low “E” score on two professionally administered MBTI assessments, I love tangling with INTJs. I went at LO #4 with a jackhammer. I thought she could handle it but it wasn’t the way to deal with her. I actually told her that, apologized to her, and told her I would back off.
Bad analogy: If MBTI types were chess pieces, ENTJs are queens. INTJs are rooks. Rooks are queen killers. If anybody derails an ENTJ, it’s likely going to be an INTJ. IMO INTJs are the only MBTI type smart enough to assess an ENTJs vulnerabilities and figure out how to exploit them. And, they’ll smile the whole time they’re doing it.
Luckily for the rest of us, most INTJs don’t seem to be aware of how much power they have, and if they do, they either don’t know how to wield it, or even better, don’t want to wield it. I don’t know if it’s because they’re nice people or they just can’t be bothered with most of us.
I thought if I could capture LO #4’s mind, I’d get all of her. And, ooh boy, what a ride that might have been!
Song of the Post: “Go To The Mirror” – The Who (1969)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWuHipQ7mF4
“What is happening in his (her) head
Ooooh I wish I knew…I wish I knew”
Limerent Emeritus, thanks for the post.
Making a career, eh, of trying on how to get in LO’s mind? haha. Wild, isn’t it? The reason I thought of being LO myself is to be able to control and direct his thoughts toward me! We had a pretty thing going on for the two of us and I let it go…can’t capture it back! No wonder people wind up going to magicians, voodoo priests, etc. such ignorance!
If I understood correctly, your LO#4 could have entangled you romantically the way she wanted but chose not to do it? Or maybe she’s a good person, maybe didn’t know how to use the tools…
I’m not too familiar with MBTI. Find it too complicated for my poor old brain. As I grow older and older, I try to do away with things that take too much strain in my
brain. In others words, I try to simplify everything…not because I’m lazy, it’s just age…ha!
Very good song, thank you, will send to my son and niece.
Have a wonderful Sunday afternoon .
@Sammy
“I’ve been feeling “less heaviness in chest” lately. I think the feeling of “less heaviness” comes from (a) identifying and sharing one’s emotions about limerence, and (b) admitting that one had a dream that didn’t quote come true. “
The same here. To simply identify what’s wrong with my LE mind is enlightening and being so mentally naked without being judged is very liberating.
“Interesting. Nobody has ever asked me how I’d feel if the answer was yes or no. I don’t think the answers would have much to do with ego. Nor would the answer be vital to my mental health. I think I’d have a purely emotional response.”
“In my COO, being accepted or rejected, selected or unpicked for a possible romantic relationship/marriage proposal is considered “wining” or “losing”, especially for men, because in general macho culture treats a woman (even openly) as object, marketable trophy, although modern men know in theory that emotions should be considered. On the other side of equation, many young women compare men’s social and economic status for a “suitable” matrimonial tie. Eros is involved superficially, but from little to moderate; Pragma has to be strongly present.
In this culture, if one’s quite insecure; the answers of rejection or acceptance may affect one’s mental health.
“If the answer were NO, I’d feel extremely hurt, and probably cry nonstop for a couple of days.”
I’ve been taking the answer NO from LO, and Stoically living with this assumed fact since March and meditating to dull the LE pains — the sense of perceived betrayal and abandonment. If LO “gave” a little more than ghosting or ignoring, I’d feel better with the “bonus”. My expectation is maximumly negative — a Stoic trick.
“If the answer were YES, I’d probably feel intensely happy for a period of time. But eventually I’d have to come down off cloud nine. The burst of sunshine wouldn’t last indefinitely…”
If YES, I might begin to believe that “twin-flame” theory! Maybe a PA, since emotional reciprocation would be a bit more present than previously known.
“How have I slipped into this unwanted, volcanic limerence?”
I think, because I was experiencing limerence from a young age, I thought everybody experienced limerence. I assumed that everybody gets feelings of ecstasy and the triggers for that ecstasy must be pretty similar. (What makes me “high” makes other people “high” too). I assumed that limerence is how the world works and that everybody is having these very powerful emotions all the time.”
The same here, because cptsd was formed in our early childhood. I began to have memorable crush at 7. However, later seeing Pragma was dominantly involved in dating and marriage without the kind of LE I had, I thought I was some sort of “alien” — a lone-wolf, who felt extra lonely — didn’t dare to tell anyone about my intense emotions and other neuro-dysregulations. All emotions was deeply pressed down, and I sought my best company in books.
“So how did I slip into unwanted, volcanic limerence? Naivety, I guess. Not spending enough time talking about feelings with friends and family. Lack of education around romantic relationships. “
Talking about “impermanent” feelings in my COO was/still is considered a waste time for nonsenses — what one can do with expression of ever fleeing feelings? Romantic relationship was considered a luxurious, whinny game for Western bourgeoisie, puzzling, unrealistic or even unhealthy.
For me, Limeence was more like an escape from repressed emotions, depression, Narc Mom’s ignorance, mental and emotional abuse, or and some ill-tempered teachers’ contempt or criticism. I rebelled by fearlessly breaking rules behind authority figures’ back since little.
Based on some theory and Crappy Childhood Fairy, our cptsd had already changed our neurological circuitry since very young age. So we were easily dysregularted without any knowledge or clear understanding, thinking the rest people around us emotionally or neurologically functions the same as we did.
Have you checked this out on relationship between cptsd and limerence?
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLl504D3b_OPhL2U5T5rxS7O_d_q5JKyfH&si=L_75bgeKTYaiifW9
“Usually very attractive fellows, but with a mischievous streak. Tricksters. Pranksters. Jokers. Clowns.”
With me, it’s femininity, romantic aura, high sensitivity, love of classical literature, reflective tendency… with some perceived insecurity in gentle looking males that set off my glimmers. Usually, those men were subjectively handsome and attractive; but I had crushes for really common looking boys in high school.
“I connected “ecstasy” to “pleasure” and I connected “sexuality” to “pleasure”, so “pleasure” for me was always going to be the common denominator, not evil craving. “Ecstasy” IS sexual pleasure – but it’s sexual pleasure that takes place primarily in the mind.”
In my COO, anything provoking pleasure is demonized as “devilish”, so we all avoid admitting that we LIKED pleasure. Up to this day, I still have some trouble to feel guilty-free when talking about pleasure seeking, it’s supposed to ↔️ hedonism. But I did feel ecstasy with platonic LO #1 & #7, Therefore, I naturally associate “ecstasy” with spirit, which was exchanged through intense eye contact.
“I think the very notion of “difference” has always produced deep feelings of shame in me. “
I feel the same way, that’s a consequence of cptsd; even in the daycare, I felt I was different, the feeling of which was not proud, but guilty. Narc Mom always felt embarrassed by my small or big fearless, daring mischiefs.. .
“We I don’t just feel ashamed when people tell me I’m different in a bad way. I also feel ashamed when people tell me I’m different in a good way. “
I felt uncomfortable or blushed when people sincerely gave me some compliments, as if I was never supposed to deserve them, due to my “innate differecne”.
“It seems that I’m afraid of being “distinguished” in any way because being “distinguished” might provoke the envy of others.”
There is an idiom: “the shot hit the bird that pokes its head out.” With our cptsd, our fear of spotlight, good or bad, is more intense.
“For all the bravado and confidence that I might appear to have, I’m actually very unsure of myself. “
“I always thought of myself as a Stoic. But maybe I’m a good deal more emotional (and more emotionally-driven) than I thought… “Stoicism” is my social mask. The real me is a “hot mess”.
Such admissions are really cute! 🌹 I’m Snow outside, Phoenix inside…
“I believe that spiritual ecstasy is real…. For them, the bond was just friendship, plain and simple. For me, the bond was something spiritual, something mystical, something from another plane”.
So accurately captured! Can feeling spiritual ecstasy, as well as emotional betrayal, only be experienced by limerents??
“One only questions the morality of infatuation when one feels betrayed by the actions of an LO, or struggles to cope with particularly bad mood swings.”
It sounds like “the morality of infatuation” is only relevant to limerents, exiting in their altered mental state; LO would be even unaware of its existence? I did not have many bad mood swings for the first 4 years, except my worst panic attack cause by that abandonment melange, shockingly triggered by LO’s perceived total ignorance of me in public. After 4 years, jealousy, anger due to “betrayal”, grief, and despair kicked in until March when I finally pulled off a “closure”, which, of course, did not and could not succeed without knowing clearly what I had been experiencing — no concept of limerence.
“I don’t think people always act on what’s going on inside their heads – especially if they’re getting large hits of dopamine anyway from small interactions.”
That’s the realistic situation of our limerence — most acts were so alive in our head, like in vivid dreams… less than crumbs “made any dropping sound” on the floor of the reality!
“But maybe there is a point where one wants more, even insists on more, and becomes resentful if more isn’t forthcoming i.e. a committed relationship. “
I guess this is more in your case since both sides seemed to be available. Mine is a dead end from the day ONE! I could not want more, insist on anything, and I had no right to feel resentful, so I didn’t! When PA was indirectly offered by LO, I did not want to take it — without his equal emotional reciprocation but with his perceived narc traits. I was also afraid of taking it — an abandonment melange might follow because it would end soon or later with the SO of 27 years.
“Perhaps the most awkward situation of all occurs when the limerent looks to LO for more and the LO feigns ignorance of the limerent’s ever-deepening attraction/attachment.”
I was hoping to have more platonic rendezvous with LO to dialogue, to discuss or debate substantial issues like we did here in LwL, but he said he would only do it with his SO, the legitimacy of which did not make me feel awkward.
I did sense that LO “feigns ignorance of my attraction/attachment” (but secretly enjoyed it as a sensor), not always deepening, but also strengthening-n-weakening considering how much LC/NC I tried, since the fall of 2018. LO would only talk with or write to me eagerly whenever sensing I was walking away — not pretending as he thought, but sincerely; my cptsd dysregulation became unbearable at times, with his pulling-n-pushing stringing.
“It has been a pleasure. I’ve enjoyed hearing a what a woman thinks about a great number of things. Somehow, you’ve helped me connect with my emotions and stay connected to my emotions.”
I’m honored to hear that I was able to make a man to stay in touch with his emotions. But why cannot I make myself to stay connected to my own emotions? 🧐. I am definitely closer to my emotions nowadays, which is making me more laidback (I was also intense with my cptsd dysregulation).
“If you trace the trajectory of our conversations, you will no doubt see my tone over time has become less intellectual, less provocative, less cynical, less “witty”, and more sombre and reflective. “
If it is indeed the case, then I’m really joyful for you and pleased for my accidental “achievement”! 💃🏻💃🏻
“Perhaps literary references, provocation, and repartee are all just defence mechanisms, designed to shield the self from too much probing?”
You mean self-probing? Yes, a variety of intellectual activities in a restless mind often indicates some kind of hidden emotional pains, eg. fear, anxiety, anger/resentment, etc. When another intense mind is invited in to dialogue with said mind, one is compelled to probe within, even just to keep up meaningful, authentic conversations and debates with the other challenging mind. That’s why substantial dialogues are such nutritious mind food.
“But what is a heart if the contents of said heart can never be shared? “🌹❣️
I’m going to frame this deeply moving truth!
Does this mean we limerents should all disclose our LE to our LOs? 😁
@Snowphoenix.
Well, we’re certainly covering a lot of ground today… 😜
“Besides her female brain, I think you might have also provoked her motherly instinct that wants to take care of anyone, especially attractive sex of one’s interest, who is willing to listen and submit to her judgment.”
I think in women, or in people with strong feminine energy, the sensual and the maternal can become interwoven. I’ve certainly felt nurturing toward males I’ve also felt attracted to. However, I’m also super-mindful these days of what may or may not constitute appropriate behaviour regarding gender roles. For example, some males may be uncomfortable being nurtured by another male, no matter how well-intentioned the nurturing, although they may welcome the exact same behaviour from a girlfriend. My advice: go with the flow, and find another way to express affection.
I feel comfortable being “motherly” toward other gay men, and they seem to be comfortable (and at worst only slightly amused) by such nurturing.
With conventional males, bonding-wise, jokes are always a good way to go. Compliments should probably be restricted to those of an impersonal nature. (Though it IS okay to compliment a nice pair of shoes). Throw in a few similes and metaphors derived from the world of sport even if you know nothing about sport. It seems to me that the more a man likes another man, (platonically), the more Man A mocks Man B and tells Man B that he’s a rascal. If I mock myself, I feel like I’m covering all bases! 😆
“It’s a hard-learned truth for me, due to my nurtured or “coerced” masculinity. I felt embarrassed or “sissy” to think or behave “womanly”, despite I look quite feminine. I was confused and sometimes repelled by a lot of “erotic” looks directed towards me. Before coming to LwL recently, I barely knew let alone understood the science behind lust, attraction, and attachment.”
I think both sexes are drawn toward eyes, longing looks, that kind of thing. Eyes seem to be a unisex erotic trigger. No wonder they feature so prominently in discussions of limerence! However, males can’t always read eyes, or aren’t always aware what their own eyes might convey i.e. desire.
Females, on the other hand, seem to be almost TOO CONSCIOUS of eyes.
Females might be frightened if they get “the wrong kind of eyes” from an unfamiliar male (or a familiar male who’s giving off the wrong signals). Sometimes, a woman will scan all male eyes in the vicinity because she wants to know the men present are “safe men” and she’s in a safe environment. Women who don’t want to engage in conversation with men will often automatically look down. 🤔
I think the women of LwL are right in many respects: I think women like men who are confident and women like men who have a good sense of humour. But this sense of humour should be overwhelmingly kind rather than cruel. I think women definitely don’t want a man who’s a bully or a man who’s aggressive. On the other hand, women don’t want a man who’s a complete pushover. A little bit of a challenge – now that’s sexy! 😉
“Yes. Without male’s understanding of women’s psychology, and willingness to grow and renew, and without women’s compromise, forgiveness and willingness to self learning & improving, a long-term relationship could hardly last, such as my marriage; I was so young and naive.”
I don’t know much about marriage. But I do know arguing with one’s spouse seems to be an ineffective way of persuading one’s spouse to meet one’s needs. It seems everyone stop listening the second arguments begin, so arguments are a largely pointless form of marital communication. 🙄
“In general, it’s true. But women’s focus could also be drawn by men’s physiques with their inexpressible aura, although they may not clearly aware of it. My eyes were somehow keen on this since young.”
Yes, my eye is still drawn by the male physique – but more out of aesthetic appreciation these days than out of desire. Also, movement. I just love the way the male body moves. And males often hold their arms out in such a funny way when they walk, as if they’re having great difficulties with staying balanced while upright. I don’t know if such behaviour is natural or learnt, but it’s rather cute, and brings out a woman’s maternal feelings.
“In general, men are more visual, aloof and possessive, instead of relational. Only a few with their creative streaks or talents are highly sensitive, imaginary, and relational, shown in their artistic creation, like “fussy” Proust.”
Well, Proust was “a friend of Dorothy” i.e. attracted to the same sex. So I don’t know if we can rely on his insights on all matters. I suppose men are more possessive of their mates than women in general. (In my parents’ marriage, the situation was reversed – possessive woman, docile man).
I have a theory. There is significant overlap in men and women’s erotic triggers. Also, the erotic triggers of men and women change as men and women age (or marry each other and learn from one another). Men become more relational as they age whereas some women may become more autonomous, and more aware of the physical beauty of the male.
“I think in women, or in people with strong feminine energy, the sensual and the maternal can become interwoven. “
I imagined in Eros, men prefer women’s sensual energy much more than maternal. And many women, especially in my COO, mix the sensual and the maternal while dating/marrying with men. Vice versa, men sometimes treat their SO or GFs as a sort of material figure, e.g. my SO. I had very conflicting feelings about it. In one way, I liked to take care of SO’s needs or have him followed my preferences or decisions; but on the other I found men’s residual “maternal bonding or dependency” not sensually or sexually attractive. I want them to be more creative, innovative taking independent steps in certain aspects of life; not always depending on SOs as if they were still living in their original home. Mother tie should be severed in both men and women when they go into their own life.
If somehow I subconsciously sought out an ideal parental figure, that’s for my unmet childhood needs (desiring a loving mother, protector, guidance, a patient ear, accepting hands and hugs), not for my romantic desire or womanly needs. If men subconsciously search for their mother in their SO/GF, some women may feel “burdened.” I believe maternal instinct or care is for children, not grownup men. I know and understand a large portion of grown men are unconsciously attracted to or marry women who resemble their mother.
It’s hard for me to imagine how nurture-bonding and pair-bonding are mixed, eg. a hug for nurturing to me turned to a hug for sexuality for LO/SO; or other way around. Those 7 types of Greek love can not be mingled all the time. I think one should be clearly aware of differences and apply appropriately in social, familial mingling settings.
“It seems to me that the more a man likes another man, (platonically), the more Man A mocks Man B and tells Man B that he’s a rascal. If I mock myself, I feel like I’m covering all bases! “
I wished such “bonding” so much in my friendship with both men and women; but neither could take it well. The former was often distracted by their male hormone that they could hardly hear what I said or just nodded their head indiscriminately. The latter often giggled or puzzled by why I was bothered by all “Whys” under the Sun. My curious and restless mind was like a big dog who needs to run outdoor three times a day or better to go hunting along men in woods.
“males can’t always read eyes, or aren’t always aware what their own eyes might convey i.e. desire.”
The same phenomenon goes with females! You think we females know or understand our own eyes or gazes? We can’t see our eyes when they’re communicating with or glimmering at others! We may (may not) know what’s in our mind at that moment of looking or gazing; but what others see in our eyes are totally subjective as they wish. It’s in this “soulful” gaze or narcissistic stare, the world’s tragedies or comedies have been born and spinned around throughout the history. It is in this area, metaphysics has its ground and application.
“Females, on the other hand, seem to be almost TOO CONSCIOUS of eyes. Females might be frightened if they get “the wrong kind of eyes” from an unfamiliar male (or a familiar male who’s giving off the wrong signals). “
Due to my trauma, I could spot lusty eyes since 6, whether it’s from dominant “predators” or adoring men. I always got frightened under teens and felt very uncomfortable after 20. That may explain why my glimmer was set off by LO at their most “natural” state, before they ever saw or spotted my existence. That 5 seconds of initiative look will NAIL a fact — he is a hunter or a gentleman or someone wobbling in between. No LO has proved me wrong. (I never glimmered at Narc LO #3 and #6, they picked me up first and I merely responded)
“Women who don’t want to engage in conversation with men will often automatically look down. “
“Look down” or look away or squeeze out a polite smile, and try to avoid any further accidental eye contact without those “eye aggressive” or curious men.
“But this sense of humour should be overwhelmingly kind rather than cruel. “
The best, most attractive humors in the world are kind, empathetic, and insightful of life’s truths, big and small, positive and negative; they are not bitter, cynical, sarcastic, or cruel (maybe sadness provoking)
“I think women definitely don’t want a man who’s a bully or a man who’s aggressive. On the other hand, women don’t want a man who’s a complete pushover. A little bit of a challenge – now that’s sexy! “
Totally agree! Women like men who know how to appreciate uniqueness in them, with subtle but substantial flattery.
”so arguments are a largely pointless form of marital communication. “
Instead more discussions before a debate is needed; it’s extremely hard to hold debates from slipping into arguments. It takes willingness, effort, and deep affection for both sides to learn an d compromise, while trying to keep the 7 forms of love alive or undamaged.
“I just love the way the male body moves. “
I like stronger muscle tones in lean men’s physique — not those hideous body builders; I also like their sharp bone features, like those in Rodin’s sculptures. When young, having a roundish face is okay; but not pass their 30s. Female’s curves on men is a turn off for me; I used to dislike those curves even in women, but nowadays I appreciate them better.
“Well, Proust was “a friend of Dorothy” i.e. attracted to the same sex. So I don’t know if we can rely on his insights on all matters. I suppose men are more possessive of their mates than women in general. “
Proust is brilliant in his own queer eyes! As I said before, I like and appreciate femininity in men, and he excels in his creative work, aside from the long winding sentences.
“(In my parents’ marriage, the situation was reversed – possessive woman, docile man).”
The same goes with my family — a narcissistic, passive-aggressively controlling, selfish, dependent, insecure, unethical women, and a kind, fair, generous, proud, confident, moral man — not docile)
“I have a theory. There is significant overlap in men and women’s erotic triggers. Also, the erotic triggers of men and women change as men and women age (or marry each other and learn from one another). Men become more relational as they age whereas some women may become more autonomous, and more aware of the physical beauty of the male.
Sounds right, can’t disagree with you on this department.
@Snowphoenix.
Such wonderful, thought-provoking commentary! In formulating a response worthy of your insights, I barely know where to begin… But I’m going to try anyway, because I’m a smarty-pants. 😆
I’ll start by making a throwaway remark. How does one know one is no longer limerent for a given LO? How does one know one is coming out of limerence for a specific LO? You know that pain in the chest cavity limerents report feeling? That “hurt feeling in the heart”? Well, that “hurt feeling in the heart” goes away when you’re thinking of a person and no longer actively limerent for them. 😉
“I imagined in Eros, men prefer women’s sensual energy much more than maternal. And many women, especially in my COO, mix the sensual and the maternal while dating/marrying with men. Vice versa, men sometimes treat their SO or GFs as a sort of material figure, e.g. my SO. I had very conflicting feelings about it.”
This is a very delicate issue that’s rarely discussed in any society, because it evokes such powerful but largely-unconscious emotions in both sexes. Nobody is happy with the status quo and yet nobody wants to change the status quo, either. It comes down to the question: “What do men and women REALLY want from each other?” And that seems to be a question most people are afraid to answer, or even to ask.
Sometimes, men are accused, rightly or wrongly, as only seeing women in one of two ways – as “madonna” (maternal figure) or as “fallen woman” (I don’t want to use the vulgar term Freud used, but I mean a woman viewed purely in terms of sexuality), Women often don’t want to be shunted off into one of two boxes. On the other hand, women also seem to struggle when asked to juggle both roles, for example, when they are the loving wife/girlfriend of a man.
I feel a lot of women decide unconsciously to blend maternal and sensual energy in relationships with males, because it’s the “safe option”, because this blend of energies is the only thing capable of keeping the sexes unified long-term and holding marriages together. The woman’s willingness to nurture (her husband and her children simultaneously) IS the beating heart of the marriage. And when the woman gives up nurturing, the marriage is over.
But you’re right, too – women are conflicted about the roles they’re asked to play in heterosexual relationships. The maternal side of the equation, especially when it becomes too strong or overbearing, is antithetical to Eros. Instead of being lovers first and foremost, husband and wife transform into “Mum and Dad”. There’s nothing particularly sexy about “Mum and Dad”. (Ask any teenager!)
Camille Paglia notes that “nursing” seems to be one of the primary things that adult women offer adult men, and often this nursing on the part of the woman becomes the whole relationship. Women do often relate to husband as if the husband were an extra child, and maybe some husbands do deserve to be patronised in this manner. But, again, too much nursing dampens Eros, and people seem to fall into limerence precisely because they don’t have Eros in their lives.
“It’s hard for me to imagine how nurture-bonding and pair-bonding are mixed, eg. a hug for nurturing to me turned to a hug for sexuality for LO/SO; or other way around. Those 7 types of Greek love can not be mingled all the time. I think one should be clearly aware of differences and apply appropriately in social, familial mingling settings.”
I agree with you that it’s not always healthy to mingle different types of love, especially Eros with other combinations. However, such mingling of different love types takes place in society and families all the time, which might explain why people are so confused about identity and why society has so many problems.
Ecstasy does seem to belong to the realm of Eros, but very few people want to give up ecstasy because it’s so addictive, and they’ll take ecstasy from whatever source they can find it – even inappropriate sources. Also, erotic love might be transgressive by definition, making it hard to reconcile with social monogamy.
“I wished such “bonding” so much in my friendship with both men and women; but neither could take it well. The former was often distracted by their male hormone that they could hardly hear what I said or just nodded their head indiscriminately. The latter often giggled or puzzled by why I was bothered by all “Whys” under the Sun. My curious and restless mind was like a big dog who needs to run outdoor three times a day or better to go hunting along men in woods.”
In Western culture, men are often seen as having nothing of value to add to the societal-wide discussion on relationships. But I wonder – do men (or the masculine principle they in theory embody) INDEED have something valuable to contribute to the discussion?
I think the casual-but-deeply-loving, relentlessly self-mocking, highly-controlled/highly ritualised aggression between males in male camaraderie that you and I so admire is admirable for a reason. Maybe these platonic male-male relationships have some kind of “breathing room” in them that heterosexual relationships lack?
Now there’s nothing innately wrong with heterosexual relationships. That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is men and women, even in happy heterosexual relationships, don’t give each other enough “air”. And when there’s no “air” in a relationship, there’s also no “Eros”. Plenty of married men and married women still seem to want Eros. So can something be learnt, NOT from non-heterosexual relationships, but from male homosocial bonding? 😉
“The same phenomenon goes with females! You think we females know or understand our own eyes or gazes? We can’t see our eyes when they’re communicating with or glimmering at others!”
Hahaha! That is so funny. I guess if I, as a biological male, insist that biological females inherently KNOW MORE about relationships than I do, then I can conveniently blame females for all relationship failures. (And vice versa, of course. Females can claim that “men know more” and hence blame men for all relationship upsets).
“Proust is brilliant in his own queer eyes! As I said before, I like and appreciate femininity in men, and he excels in his creative work, aside from the long winding sentences.”
Yes, Proust was certainly brilliant. I haven’t actually read him. I think the length of his work put me off. However, as a gay man, I often question the validity of my own insights and judgements, just as I questioned the validity of Proust insights and judgements – because, as you say, Proust is looking at the world through “queer eyes”.
In having a dig at Proust, I was really having a dig at myself. (Are my “queer eyes” reliable witnesses? Can gay men be counted on to tell the truth about life? What could a gay man possibly know about life?) Society doesn’t always value the contributions of gay men, leading gay men to doubt themselves.
Also, sometimes, one feels one doesn’t have a right to comment on things if one doesn’t belong to a particular group that those “things” are associated with. The feeling of stigma never really goes away.
Thank you for being such a lovely conversation partner! Gracious but tough – I like your style! I feel that I am helping myself a great deal more than I am helping you. 😛
Snowphoenix,
” If men subconsciously search for their mother in their SO/GF, some women may feel “burdened.” I believe maternal instinct or care is for children, not grownup men. ”
Totally agree, but I think for some men the SO or spouse becomes the life director or life coach, for lack of a better description. The guys I used to work with at my former place of employment used to complain of the “honey-do” list. The list of chores and tasks their SOs gave them to do. So one day I asked one of them, “What if you just went home and did whatever the hell you wanted to?” And his face got really strained. Finally, he said, “I wouldn’t know what to do with myself.” Ah, I thought, you want the “honey-do” list. You need it. It’s giving your life structure and purpose. In essence, that’s what their SOs were doing. The women were the CEOs of the family, so to speak. And, yes, I would agree that’s a big job that some women wouldn’t want. I personally wouldn’t. It’s hard enough to find your own purpose. Let alone provide it for someone else.
@Sammy,
“I’ll start by making a throwaway remark. How does one know one is no longer limerent for a given LO? How does one know one is coming out of limerence for a specific LO? You know that pain in the chest cavity limerents report feeling? That “hurt feeling in the heart”? Well, that “hurt feeling in the heart” goes away when you’re thinking of a person and no longer actively limerent for them. “
That’s why I admit that I’m clearly in my limerence because that deep heartache still emerges in dead night, middle of waking up, and peaceful dawn….
“This is a very delicate issue that’s rarely discussed in any society, because it evokes such powerful but largely-unconscious emotions in both sexes. Nobody is happy with the status quo and yet nobody wants to change the status quo, either. It comes down to the question: “What do men and women REALLY want from each other?” And that seems to be a question most people are afraid to answer, or even to ask.“
People in general avoid evasive, subconscious issues that once awake may spring their core round and round and turn upside down of what they have dominated believed in their whole life. They don’t even want to calmly face them, it’s safe to keep them out of mental sight. But Jung firmly believes that individuation process is the key to our sanity and sustained contentment.
“Sometimes, men are accused, rightly or wrongly, as only seeing women in one of two ways – as “madonna” (maternal figure) or as “fallen woman” (I don’t want to use the vulgar term Freud used, but I mean a woman viewed purely in terms of sexuality)”
Let’s use two terms for both sexes: Madonna and Marilyn Monroe vs. Jesus and Casanova. In this naming, we exclude bodyworker as trade men/women. I used to like the name “courtesan” because they were much more educated and smarter than wives, but they were still professionals making monetary profits.
“Women often don’t want to be shunted off into one of two boxes. On the other hand, women also seem to struggle when asked to juggle both roles, for example, when they are the loving wife/girlfriend of a man.”
The mainstream cultures in both East and West, up to this day, seem unable to accept that men can be Jesus and Casanova, women Madonna and Marilyn Monroe simultaneously, even in a long-term, love relationship. If they can be bravely honest to each other about what they truly desire and make efforts to work on the concepts and skills, the stereotyped, traditional roles could be changed eventually and beautifully integrated.
Men desire their SO being Madonna in the living room, Marilyn Monroe in bedroom, while women theirs being Jesus in the living room, Casanova in bedroom. That’s a simplified version of what both sexes truly want. But of course, it’s almost impossible to expect a single person to play so many roles in modern society: best friend, confidant, conversationist, Madonna/Jesus, MM/Casanova, therapist, decision maker, bread winner, drinking buddy, chef/chauffeur, homemaker, traveling companion…. Those roles were played by many individuals separately in the history but are expected by ONE energy & skill limited man or woman through a monogamous relationship in our ear! No wonder so many marriages and relationships have failed and broken apart!
“I feel a lot of women decide unconsciously to blend maternal and sensual energy in relationships with males, because it’s the “safe option”, because this blend of energies is the only thing capable of keeping the sexes unified long-term and holding marriages together. The woman’s willingness to nurture (her husband and her children simultaneously) IS the beating heart of the marriage. And when the woman gives up nurturing, the marriage is over.”
You’re totally right in terms of how a traditional marriage functions in most societies. However, we women, often caught up and exhausted by professional and familial responsibilities and strives to succeed in both fields, need and desire nurturing male partner, too (maybe that’s another reason why femininity in men is so attractive to me)! Why only women should play this vital nurturing roles to both sexes and children? Can’t men learn to share those roles and reduce women’s physical and psychological “burdens”?
Then another challenge is that if one can consciously, comfortably switch the roles of their beloved in the living room and bedrooms, back and forth. Where is such a psychological discomfort coming from? — philosophy, religion, ideology, conventional ethics, physiology, neurology… you name it! In my eyes, an ideal parter is a harmonious mixt of Jesus & Casanova or Madonna & Marilyn Monroe.
“Camille Paglia notes that “nursing” seems to be one of the primary things that adult women offer adult men, and often this nursing on the part of the woman becomes the whole relationship. Women do often relate to husband as if the husband were an extra child, and maybe some husbands do deserve to be patronised in this manner. But, again, too much nursing dampens Eros, and people seem to fall into limerence precisely because they don’t have Eros in their lives.”
You summarize here so well! I second you on why so many people with even happy SD still fall into limerence. The Eros is either already died or barely breathe in the comfortable or stagnated relationship. Security does not help Eros, biology and neurology only worsen libido streghth as we age.
“I agree with you that it’s not always healthy to mingle different types of love, especially Eros with other combinations. However, such mingling of different love types takes place in society and families all the time, which might explain why people are so confused about identity and why society has so many problems.”
I have already discussed this above.
“Ecstasy does seem to belong to the realm of Eros, but very few people want to give up ecstasy because it’s so addictive, and they’ll take ecstasy from whatever source they can find it – even inappropriate sources. Also, erotic love might be transgressive by definition, making it hard to reconcile with social monogamy.”
Very true! But what about spiritual ecstasy? What about emotional affairs? How do we count mental and emotional transgressions? One’s body is present biologically functioning, but the mind — the true Eros, is elsewhere blasting ecstasy with the secret LO? Isn’t it considered betrayal? Isn’t everything occurs in mind always prior to any realistic actions?
“In Western culture, men are often seen as having nothing of value to add to the societal-wide discussion on relationships. But I wonder – do men (or the masculine principle they in theory embody) INDEED have something valuable to contribute to the discussion?”
How interesting, I did not know this “fact”. In the East, it’s opposite. Macho males want to dominate/lead females in all walks, and many docile females automatically “look up” male chuvonists for answers and support, willing to be led “blindly”. Those women who have independent mind and means as a bread winner could hardly find their “mating hand” in marriage, and labeled “Leftover women” even under 30s.
“I think the casual-but-deeply-loving, relentlessly self-mocking, highly-controlled/highly ritualised aggression between males in male camaraderie that you and I so admire is admirable for a reason. Maybe these platonic male-male relationships have some kind of “breathing room” in them that heterosexual relationships lack?”
I so hope that those platonic male-male bonding camaraderie could take place between heterosexual men and women, which would make their desired marital commitment or substantial friendship last longer. But genetic hormone and neurology of both sexes are always going to be challenging, ready to mess everything along the way.
“What I’m saying is men and women, even in happy heterosexual relationships, don’t give each other enough “air”. And when there’s no “air” in a relationship, there’s also no “Eros”. Plenty of married men and married women still seem to want Eros. So can something be learnt, NOT from non-heterosexual relationships, but from male homosocial bonding?”
Yes, enough air for Eros is essential in any relationships, more needed in heterosexual ties; however insecurity, jealousy, and other anxieties kick in along free “air”, worse in people with some psychological deprivation in childhood. I believe If awareness, wisdom, and trained mental tools are applied in mature adults, such healthier relationship is possible.
“Hahaha! That is so funny. I guess if I, as a biological male, insist that biological females inherently KNOW MORE about relationships than I do, then I can conveniently blame females for all relationship failures. (And vice versa, of course. Females can claim that “men know more” and hence blame men for all relationship upsets).”
No sex knows better than the other; we are 8 billion blind men trying to describe the elephant in the field.
“Yes, Proust was certainly brilliant. I haven’t actually read him. I think the length of his work put me off. However, as a gay man, I often question the validity of my own insights and judgements, just as I questioned the validity of Proust insights and judgements – because, as you say, Proust is looking at the world through “queer eyes”. “
I’m making joke about his “queer eyes”. He has deep insights about the society in general, both sexes and their shared or distinguished psychologies, that are still valid in today’s world. The length of his work is scary, so please allow me put a link here — 100 pages of Proust’s 3464 quotes dominantly in Enlgish, you can judge for yourself whether his views are queer or profound.
https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/233619.Marcel_Proust?page=1
“In having a dig at Proust, I was really having a dig at myself. (Are my “queer eyes” reliable witnesses? Can gay men be counted on to tell the truth about life? What could a gay man possibly know about life?) “
Again, everyone is unique; every view is valid, every untrodden path needs to be explored. As long as it matters to you in a mentally healthy way, then it’s plenty enough!
“Society doesn’t always value the contributions of gay men, leading gay men to doubt themselves. “
I Do, due to my working experiences with them — there has been at least 1 brilliant one in each place I’ve studied at or working in. To generalize or stereotype, their eyes and mind are more sensitive, considerate, and thorough, I was so impressed! Our society is still deeply mired in traditional views and some heavily biased convictions. But the civilization depends on steady progress on all areas of the society as well as of individuals, it just takes time. Trust yourself!
“Also, sometimes, one feels one doesn’t have a right to comment on things if one doesn’t belong to a particular group that those “things” are associated with. The feeling of stigma never really goes away.”
Well, many authors, poets, artists, inventors, scientists have voiced themselves through their brilliant work. Don’t dwell on sex or gender differences, but focus on creations what could speak for all. Valuable eyes judge work