Time for another general discussion post; a place for all the chit chat that might arise in a congenial coffee house full of limerents.
For a starting topic of conversation, I’ve been thinking about purpose again, and its close cousin, meaning. The guiding philosophy of the LwL site is that purposeful living is the best cure for limerence. If we are living in a mindful way, and developing the habits that lead to personal accomplishment, direction, and fulfillment, then life will feel meaningful and uplifting. That decreases your psychological vulnerability to limerence, by sapping the allure of a life-transforming romantic escape fantasy.
It’s a straightforward concept to grasp, and for some people the insight is transformative. Most often, these are people who have an intuitive sense of their purpose. They know that there is something calling to them, a purpose they have been neglecting, through fear or insecurity or a misplaced sense of duty. A bad limerence experience can be the push they need to start being honest with themselves, taking their purpose seriously, and finding a sense of meaning that helps them through the hardship of recovering from person addiction.
For others, there is a problem. Yes, they grasp the concept of why purposeful living is valuable and effective, but nothing presents itself as a promising option. How do you find a purposeful outlet for your energy? How do you find meaning? Should you change job, go on a long vacation, find a (new) partner? Where do you begin, if you have no clear sense of calling?
These thought have resurfaced lately, because of the mounting evidence that we are collectively suffering a crisis of meaning in Western societies. An article from Evie magazine (which has been archived for those that don’t want to register) has recently resurfaced on social media and reports that 56% of white, liberal women under the age of 30 have been diagnosed with a mental health problem.
The drilling down on the demographics is interesting in itself, but it fits within a general trend of runaway increases in the prescription of antidepressants, self-harm and suicide attempts over the last few decades.
There are lots of theories about what is going on. The rise of Instagram, Facebook and TwitterX is a popular one, providing both psyche-destabilising social distortions and new ways to bully. The easy accessibility of pornography is another. The collapse of religious faith is a third. The general malaise of “late stage” capitalism is a fourth. It’s one of those situations where lots of cultural shifts are happening and all have some “truthiness” about them to explain the collapse of youth mental health. It’s probably a bit of a Rorschach test as to which you find the most compelling.
The Evie article had an interesting conclusion, which probably reveals some of my own biases. It argues that the worldview of that 56% demographic is based around exposing systemic causes of suffering – the belief that our cultural institutions are corrupted by structural inequalities, which must be uncovered, corrected and monitored with constant vigilance. Purposeful work in this context means policing the conduct of others for forms of oppression, no matter how subtle.
Progressivism demands equality for all and keeps score to an exhausting, unsustainable degree… In all honesty, it’s understandable that anxiety and depression thrive in these kinds of environments when we’re focusing on every minute, problematic issue in our world and not able to take comprehensive, productive action to solve all these problems.
I think this last point is especially pertinent. If your purpose is trying to correct external problems that cannot actually be solved by your own efforts, you feel helpless. This is the problem of having an external locus of control, rather than an internal locus of control. You can’t fix the world to gain inner peace. Finding your own purpose is a personal mission, and the starting point is always to look inwards.
It is noteworthy that no other demographic has anything like the same prevalence of mental health diagnoses (values are typically in the 10-25% range). Equally noteworthy, is that the instinctive hypothesis that flashed into my mind was “maybe privileged, affluent, white women on college campuses seek healthcare more often than working class black women.”
Whatever the cause, it is clearly a problem that the general trend in our population is towards increasing psychological fragility. Either our environment is driving us mad or our culture is. Most likely, both are contributing. So, here’s the simple question for the LwL community to solve today in the virtual coffeehouse:
How do we help people find purpose and reverse the epidemic of poor mental health?
Let’s see, this is a very difficult post Dr. L !
“ If we are living in a mindful way, and developing the habits that lead to personal accomplishment , direction and fulfillment, then life will feel meaningful and uplifting. That decreases your psychological vulnerability to limerence, by sapping the allure of a life- transforming romantic escape fantasy.”
Not so fast. If an individual is, let’s say accomplished , in all senses, as described above, doesn’t mean he or she are less exposed to limerence episodes.
The reason being, if their partners are not accomplished as well there would be a a form of imbalance that will show off within time and one of the two would want to pull in a different direction. You need two to tango… The most important thing is to know thyself well and be wise when choosing a long term partner. Knowing that once you enter “ love” there’s always the chance of it ending. The couple must have the “same” dreams and goals and engage on “same” activities to keep their relationship vibrant and functioning. A LOT OF SHARING TOGETHER. Nowadays, each one goes their way alone; you can notice it in restaurants, how little they talk and share, they’re constantly on the phone! So they do the same home. Whole families , each one tending to theirs phones in total silence. I don’t know if they enjoy their meal at all! I conclude that technology, politics, lack of core principles, the collapse of religious faith, greediness, the quest for more accomplishments, are the main villains. People have to share more, a lot, in a relationship. People participate in community causes less and less, specially young ones, losing the opportunity to learn how to develop a bond in society and acquire knowledge for future relationships. Education is very important, but there are very important things you learn from the “University of life” not taught at any College or University, but by mingling, and sharing your emotional side to other people in your community to develop healthy mental patterns. Love is a problem in public mental health…
People who loves people are the happiest people in the world.
A fantastic weekend to LwL community.
Stephen Covey (7 habits of highly effective people) wrote about the idea of a Circle of Influence. If you try to work outside your Circle of Influence, you will never gain traction, and be frustrated as Dr. L suggests. The key then is to start with small actions within our circle, and seek to expand our circle of influence over time. Mother Theresa said “we can do no great things, only small things with great love.” It’s ironic because she did objectively great things, but she viewed it as doing many small things, each of which carried a depth of love for humanity.
Incidentally this is one of the characteristics that makes my LO attractive to me. It’s also why I am having a hard time accepting the idea of NC with her. She has worked for social equity and made real impacts since before we met 24+ years ago. She’s been an inspirational figure in my own life.
I’m new to the site so apologies if I get any etiquette wrong.
Best wishes to all.
“Where do you begin, if you have no clear sense of calling?”
This has been me, pretty much my entire life. I am amazed by people who seem so sure about who they are, and what they want from life. Question for our limerents here: Are you one of those with clear purpose and meaning in your life? Or … are there … dissatisfactions? Clear or vague.
Looking at that is sometimes harder than just dwelling in fantasies and dreams.
Limerence is an extreme form of looking “externally” for satisfaction. It is extreme because it is overwhelming and beyond our own volition. How’s that for a very clear example of having NO locus of control? Limerence is a manifestation of helplessness, lack of control, lack of autonomy, loss of freedom to choose. In its grip many of us do immoral or at least ethically dubious things, deceive our loved ones, lead an inner life that is totally at odds with the face we present to the world. I think we get into that state when we were already on the wayward path, its just limerence is a particularly big hump during the journey.
During limerence, we pin everything onto an external object who will be our answer to Everything, or so it FEELS like. But the truth is, I think limerence is a symptom of dissatisfaction with SOMETHING, from within. You might even look like you have a great life, but if there is something niggling, and if you ignore it long enough, and you hit a point in your life when you are particularly vulnerable, and if you have a tendency towards fantasy – BAM. Enter LO like a supernova.
For me, a big part of recovery was accepting that the limerence was NOT about LO at all, but about MYSELF. What it was, I did not know. But I had to tear my eyes away from my glimmery LO, realize that this longing for LO was displaced longing … and try a whole lot of different things to see if they would satiate that longing in me. Most did not work, but boy did my life get an overhaul. Overall, I’m in better shape physically, mentally, relationally, and spiritually than I have been in a long time. But that wasn’t quite enough. For me, I didn’t feel at peace until I found a meaningful purpose to dedicate my life to. I had to find something that excited me even MORE than LO at a fundamental level. That is not easy, as you can imagine!
“If your purpose is trying to correct external problems that cannot actually be solved by your own efforts, you feel helpless.”
Many young people nowadays report feeling despair when they contemplate the problems facing their generation. They feel helpless in the face of climate change, war, conflict, crazy politics, and a society that seems to be unravelling with problems like drugs, homelessness, abuse, etc. Furthermore, making a living feels so wretchedly hard, and it seems no matter how hard you hustle, the goal is elusive – and it is never enough. People feel they have NO locus of control over any of this. The helplessness and despair is part of why so many of us feel such mental anguish and have mental health problems.
“nothing presents itself as a promising option”
For me … I am finally doing something that aligns with my values, that gives me a feeling of agency. It took awhile to find it, but if I may say so, I think the first thing is to really figure out your values. What is important to you? That too, took me some time to find out, and at no point was I certain. I just tried to be very aware, very sensitive to how I FELT when I was doing things. Does this feel good? Does this feel right? Does this make me proud or ashamed to be me? And then experiment with steps (and many missteps) in that direction – some may not stick, but along the way, hopefully you will run across some thing or things that make you feel more aligned with what matters to you, so your life has meaning, and contributes toward a goal that is larger than yourself. I might also say … it may not be something you can imagine right at the start. We have this strange belief that we need to know what our purpose is before we start it … but for me its more like trying (but consciously – this is key) on different outfits until you find one that fits you like a glove. The outfit that works for you will be different than what works for me. Some people may even think your outfit is hideous (especially your parents!), but in your OWN eyes, you never looked better.
I hope you all find your “thing”. Once you do, the genuine life satisfaction you feel will make limerence feel like a dream that you snap out of. Just start. Take steps, any steps. Namaste.
Fogged Clarity, I can identify so much with what you posted there. LO definitely hit me like a Supernova. It’s been the most unreal experience and yet I know it’s all about a deeper unhappiness within myself and what seems to happen within my own life that feels so out my reach. I have this whole made up world in my head where I can believe life will be so perfect with her, that I fail to even grasp I don’t really know her at all. It is amazing to me sometimes how deeply sad this person makes me, yet so incredibly on top of the world when her eyes meet mine.
I know there is a deeper meaning to this experience and slowly I am beginning to see through some of the fog but it is definitely not easy. Like you, I think I am still trying on those outfits, but I’m picky. So it’s probably going to be awhile before I find the right one.
@MJ
I have a good friend who lives in Canada. We chat at least once a week. She’s still going through a divorce and I feel her (ex)husband is possibly Limerent for the woman he left my friend for. Anyway, I digress. For more than a year she couldn’t move forward. She cried a lot and fell in a heap. She had given up her life, her self, for her husband and kids. She didn’t know who she was.
I think one conversation we had might’ve caused something to click in her head. She said to me ‘I can’t move back to Australia. My kids are here and you do anything for your kids, right?’
I told her ‘no’. Once my child is an adult, she’s free to go and do whatever she wants. But so am I. I will always support her emotionally and even financially if I can (and I feel it’s helpful rather than enabling). But we have to live authentically, and what we tie ourselves to can sometimes limit us. I have so many goals and ambitions. I’m interested in so many things. When I finish what I’m studying now I’m pretty sure I’ll study something else. I told her this and it seemed to spark an idea in her head. ‘I’m not just a mum’. She lost her purpose when she was no longer a ‘wife and mother’. Her kids are in their late teens. I’d be itching to get out there and explore my freedom. She’s now got a goal to move back home. Her kids are thinking about joining her. She’s excited about something. She still has ups and downs. But she freed herself of that limiting idea that she was shackled to her kids for the rest of her life.
What do you (or did you) get excited about, MJ? Does anything make you feel like a kid in a candy store again? What limiting thoughts or beliefs are stopping you from living authentically and purposefully?
I haven’t seen snow in years but when I lived in the northern hemisphere I loved going for a walk round 2 or 3am and just jumping on the fresh snow to hear that squeaky sound.
Nobody around to look at a grown woman doing something very childish. And it gave me joy ☺️
Would you go jump in some snow for me? Squeaky snow. It has to squeak 🐭🙏
@Cordelia,
I think my music probably used to excite me most. Besides a round of golf, it was probably the healthiest thing I did. The thing with the music though is that it was something I shared with my Wife. Something we did as a couple. It’s how we met actually. Trying to get back into it can be bittersweet at times because it reminds me of her. Then that gets me down. I can turn on my moods so quick sometimes, I wonder if I’m bi polar or maybe even borderline.
Other than a good visit with either of my kids or an old friend, I’ve lost interest in just about everything. I’d rather go out by the lake or somewhere on the edges of the complex at work.
Then sit in my car and bawl my eyes out writing poetry to LO, that I know I’ll never send to her. Sometimes it feels like madness because I’ll spend hours wallowing in sorrow. All over my indecision and inability to relate to her. Thinking how impossible it feels to want to ground myself and try to live with a smidgen of purpose. You could probably compare the mental assault I put on myself to that of a person that cuts themself. But it’s all I know or should say, want to know. It’s where I’m at. Probably what is preventing me from living authentically and purposefully. So sad isn’t it??
As for the snow, we’ll be lucky around here to have a measurable amount any time soon. It snowed a little on Halloween but it melted the next day. If we’re lucky, we might have a white Christmas.
A few years ago, I went out late and took pictures of my neighborhood after a snowfall on a cold January night. There was a certain peace in that and yes I am familiar with the squeak. I’ll try to remember you this year when we get that first winter blast. I’ll jump in it too and make a snow Angel.
❄☃️😉
Thank you! I am limited to sand angels here. Not quite the same 😀
Jumping around like a lunatic in the squeaky snow is fun too. Just sayin’….
What kind of music did you and your wife do together? Music is definitely up there for me too. Especially in a band or group of some sort. I haven’t written anything recently. Nor have I practised at all! Life has taken me down a different path in the past few years, but I think I’ll be getting back into it in the next year or two.
I started doing something that I never thought I’d enjoy. I’m lifting weights. I’ve always been a HIIT/bootcamp-type of person. I didn’t think that weights would be my thing at all. The new gym I’m at is just set up so well that I can keep track of my progress really easily and I feel proud of myself every single day. The classes are small so you get to know the community and it’s always a lot of fun. I’ve recently been recognised by the coaches for my efforts and I’m so proud of myself for it because it’s something that’s really hard for me to do. I put in that effort for myself. Being healthy is reward enough, but it does feel great having a team of people who believe in me. Perhaps there’s a small community group of some sort that has an MJ-sized hole in it?
It must be hard having mood swings. I can’t say I know how that feels. I’m generally pretty much on an even keel. I do feel like I have two polar opposite people inside me, though! There’s the one who needs a lot of quiet time and doesn’t want to be around other people most of the time and the one who is extremely social and makes bad decisions and has no filter. Both are very curious, ask lots of questions and like non-stop learning so I suppose they at least have common ground haha!
Hope you find something that sparks joy again soon!
@Cordelia,
You’re always such a breath of fresh air. I appreciate your take on life. I’m sorry if I tend to be such a downer. I know you’ve tried to help me before.
I have heard that working out is a great stress reliever. I am so out of shape though. I had a good walking regimen right after my divorce and lost a ton of weight. Slipping back into depression kinda brought a lot of that back though.
My Wife and I met at Church back when we were kids. It was the early 80s. She was in the Girls choir and I was in the Boys choir. I also played the organ and piano as the backup. She always loved that about me.
It’s been forever since I played. I can still enjoy it if I want, I just choose not to. A lot of my time is spent helping take care of Dad in his sickness. So by the time I get home, I’m tired and all I want to do is veg out by the fireplace with a good book or something on TV.
@MJ
“I have this whole made up world in my head where I can believe life will be so perfect with her, that I fail to even grasp I don’t really know her at all.”
You do realize this comment you made shows that you do NOT “fail to even grasp” the true situation. You’ve taken the first step – mental. Well done! It takes some time for the emotions to catch up. This is the frustrating period, when our minds know that LE is ridiculous but our heart sings and leaps for our LO.
I think one thing that might help is to look at one’s life and deal with one problem at a time. If there’s a relationship that is problematic – put a bit of work into that. If its a career that’s gone stagnant – look into new jobs, or career paths. If it is a spiritual crisis – seek and you may find. Intellectual drought – take a course, upskill. Physically unfit – join a gym. Etc. None of these on their own might make you feel better (or they might! It is a good list) but do it with the attitude that you are looking to find something good in your life, that will make you stronger, and therefore less vulnerable to limerence.
It is not only alright to be picky – it is crucial. It has to be true. Otherwise your heart will know, and it will latch onto LO (as an alternative). Just keep trying on things.
I wish you luck! No – not luck. I wish you good effort!
Thank you Fogged Clarity. I appreciate your words and ideas to help. Everything takes time and while I know it would be for the better, I’ll probably drag a$$ in making effort because my own personal life seems so mundane and lacks much excitement. I get that it’s not always supposed to be a party, but I am anxious about the tide never seeming to turn. Not to mention the high of seeing LO is way to intoxicating to give up. It’s so crazy, I swear.
I just keep trying and will look for the “E” beside my name for effort.
Thank you again Friend..
Hi MJ
I think I understand how you feel because I sometimes go through the same feelings: wallowing in deep sorrow, and nothing else catch my attention. To do something different, it would take a great effort, and one does not have the strength to do it. These feelings makes you weak and very vulnerable. It’s that particular feeling of expectation and desire for an LO that we know it will never come to fruition. It’s the misfortune of having to fall in love-infatuated- with the unobtainable person/ LO. In other words, there’s little or no hope at all of ever having that dream come true. One feels a terrible sense of loss; you’re on a grieving process, that perhaps to others, it seems to be taking too long. Each individual is different, so are circumstances. When all hopes are gone it’s difficult to have joy or try something new because you cannot see a future if this LO is not going to be in your life… LO is the center of your life! And that, my friend, is very hard to cope with! We are bewitched…
I understand you’re tired enough from work and taking care for your dad to pursue others hobbies. Playing the piano brings your bad memories, but can you afford a few hours on the weekends to play gulf? I think gulf is so exciting, and will connect you with other people too, besides shedding some weight. Playing gulf is not that you have to learn something new, which would otherwise take a lot of effort you don’t feel like right now doing, you know the Sport.
May God give you strength, grace , love and His peace to go on. You’ll be ok. It’s a matter of time. Have a peaceful week. Hugs.❤️
@Nisor,
You took the words right out of my head when you wrote all that didn’t you? It’s nice that you get me. Or that our LEs are similar in nature.
It is that realization, that I will probably never be with LO in a capacity I would like to be. I can get so sad over that. Still seeking out places where I like to go and think of her and revel in those thoughts. Write her poems that gush and gush over her
amazing beauty and how I long to hold her close and adore her all over from head to toe. What crazy pedestalling huh? I’m 100+ mph when she’s in my head like that. Then the real reality hits and I crash and tears rush out of me like waves on the ocean. Self abuse. I’ve got it bad. No wonder therapy isn’t an option. However, I will be going to see the Priest again on the weekend, so we’ll see how that goes.
Bewitched is a very perfect way of putting things. Thank you again as always for your understanding and patience with my ramblings. I probably never bring much to the table here anymore, but I am still grateful to the community and really don’t know where I’d be without you all.
Hi MJ,
Don’t say you have nothing to bring to the table, it’s how you feel about limerence that’s important sharing so others know they’re not alone suffering of the same thing. Each case is different, peculiar, it makes the forum interesting. We all contribute a little grain of sand to the site, a diverse stroke of the brush that adds to the picture.
Yes, our situation is similar in that we seem to be chasing rainbows 🌈, unreachable LOs, and no hopes, or a little ray of hope in sight from LO to ever give us that feeling which spark a desire to continue living. Everything seems so gloomy… my heart shrinks every time I think it’s useless to even try to reach LO. I don’t try for a year now, and struggle everyday with the temptation of calling LO. It’s very energy consuming and disturbing these feelings of longing. And I keep on asking myself why, why , why this longing for a person you cannot even see? Why is the mind so stubborn that cannot do away with it? I don’t hate LO for this incredible inconvenience but I get mad at myself for being weak and vulnerable. The time I spend busy with the church and fellowship distract me a lot from ruminating about LO.Before, it
used to take me a great effort to associate with anybody, family, friends, church, I just wanted to be alone with myself and LO in my mind, day dreaming! A “normal” person cannot conceive these things…
Going on little vacations here and there has also helped
me distract from LO. I’m just wondering how long will this thing last? Do I have to live the rest of my life with this deep sorrow? Or do I just have to accept it as part of living? So many unanswered questions!
You have a great day and May God bless. Hugs❤️
100 percent correct!
Little did I know at the time, but my Limerence has sent me on a healing (albeit extremely tough) journey!
I am almost ready to be grateful for it.
Why can’t I fix them? Why can’t I? What makes hate myself that I can’t?
Fix what? Sorry, I don’t understand.
Do you hate yourself? Why?
Why can’t I fix the two women I care about? I should be able to make things better for them. But I can’t. And I hate myself for it. I just want them to be happy and loved.
You did a lot for your LO when she worked with you. You did put a smile on her face.
I’m guessing that Momma is having a bad day and you feel helpless. Just love her. Just keep being there for her. Endure with her. She might prefer that you accept her and love her exactly the way she is instead of trying to fix her.
You will get through this.
Adam, Adam,
Just think, if we cannot fix ourselves, what makes you think you can fix someone else? That’s where God comes in the scene, He is the Creator, He alone knows what’s needed to be done and what to fix… You just give him your burdens and leave them with Him, don’t pick them back…(because if you pick them back it shows you’re not trusting Him)
When your car is having trouble you take it to the manufacturer that made it, you leave it there confident that he knows what to do because he made it, therefore he must know what to do with it . So the same we do with our Creator, He made us, He knows how to fix us. Start praying!
Jeremiah 33:3
“Call to me, and I will answer you, and show you great things and mighty things, which you do not know.”
You need His help
and you’re running away from Him. But He will never leave you nor forsake you. He’s waiting for you to turn to Him.
My thoughts and prayers are with you. God bless.❤️🌹
I took a day off from work yesterday because we had our youngest son’s IEP meeting at the school. He is struggling to do good in school. He, like his old man, didn’t excel in school like his sibling. So I understand how it feels. His mother was in tears most of the meeting. I listened but said little until he went off to class.
When we got home from the meeting I struggled to help her realize he is 17 and growing into an adult. What he does with his life is his to choose. Of course we will always be there for him just like his brother. But I think that she is having a hard time with her boys growing up. His motivation in school I cannot fix. He has to find it himself.
So yeah not a good start to the day first thing in the morning. She slept most of the rest of the morning. I didn’t bother her and let her sleep. I’m sure the anxiety of the day was hard on her.
Thank you ladies both for your advice and encouraging words. It just seems to be one thing after another the last few years. Nisor I will give it a try. But I have not prayed in over 20 years. I hope I can pull it together.
Hi Adam,
Sorry for what you and So
had to go through today with your youngest son. Not two children are alike, different personalities. So just be patient and have a talk man to man with him. I had many problems with my son since he became a teen ager. He surely made me worried and cry and go through sleepless nights. He was like a wild horse. Untamable! But I knew he had a great heart. He was dealing with mild ADD, and we got help home ( a private teacher) to help him with his assignments and home work. This helped a lot and his grades improved a hundred percent!
Upon graduating from High School
he joined the USA army , ( NATO) had his discipline and adventures, then came home and went to University, finished just fine, and today he’s a very successful manager in a private corporation. Thanks God !
On praying, it’s nothing mysterious about it, just talk to God, recognize that He is God of all mercies, in all humbleness, talk to Him as if talking to your best friend about your needs, problems, sorrow s, etc. He’s kind and merciful and will give you peace of mind . Read your Bible, it’s full of wisdom, words of comfort and guidance that has been tested through the ages. All other philosophies die but the Word of God will
alway survive because it’s applicable to every need we have.It’s based on principles that never change with time. Just search it in your own, specially the gospel of Mark, John and the epistles. All of it is beautiful and inspiring!!! It’s been my comfort for the last 40 years of my life!
Have a pleasant blessed day. Hugs❤️
@Adam
They are not yours to fix.
My husband thought he could fix me, and that lead to any number of problems in our marriage, from co-dependency, to resentment, to an authoritarian dynamic developing, etc. Nothing good came of it, even when it was “helpful”. And the underlying assumption is that they are somehow deficient and need fixing. Don’t accidentally fall into treating anyone that way, least of all someone you love. People do this with their kids as well.
People are meant to be responsible for themselves. Our partners are supposed to SUPPORT us in our quest in life, NOT fix us.
It is all sorts of hubris to think you can fix someone.
If it is a part of your identity, it is self-indulgent and selfish, disguised as altruism. It really is more about you than them.
“It is all sorts of hubris to think you can fix someone.”
“Fixing” someone is narcissistic and arrogant. “Helping” or “Rescuing” someone is compassionate and noble.
As the therapist put it to me, “It’s narcissism under the guise of altruism.”
Helping is fine but rescuing implies the other person doesn’t have their s**t together. It’s just as arrogant as fixing.
And I’m not sure why it would be appealing. I can’t imagine finding a man appealing who needed to be rescued.
It’s basically the profile of the enneagram type 2. A healthy type 2 helps in appropriate ways based on empathy and altruism. An average type 2 helps to try to earn love and gets hurt if they feel their efforts aren’t properly appreciated. An unhealthy 2 is manipulative and needy and also takes on aspects of an unhealthy type 8 and becomes domineering and overbearing, the whole “I’ll help you whether you want it or not because I know what’s best for you”. I’ve been all of those at different times in my relationships over the years.
I know there’s plenty of questions about the validity of the enneagram, but this framework was helpful for me in understanding some of my own pathology.
Lost in Space,
Being helpful is a great quality and often appreciated — if it’s the help the person articulates that they need. This is very different than the the helper determining the help (without asking) or providing the help they would want for themselves or providing the same type of help for everyone.
Some people need, for example, acts of service. Some need words of encouragement and/or emotional support. Those are very different types of help.
Yes, I cheer with you Marcia! A man that needs rescuing or is needy is not appealing to me at all! I’d just feel pity for him. I want a man that is secured, self assured, even self made, not a sissy.
The kind that can solve problems on his own ( a Clark Gable style). I don’t want a man with baggage either, it’s a waste of energy and time trying to fix someone. I’m
not a therapist, nor do I like that particular job…
There are three types of men/women:
The healthy ones, the broken ones, and the damaged ones. If you’re a healthy person definitely you want a healthy person for your companionship next to you, otherwise if you choose a broken person , she or he, will drag you and slow you down. No dice 🎲. And for sure, a damaged one will never even cross my mind to be involved with.
Is that being selfish or wise???
Marcia,
If you’re a “fixer/rescuer,” you’re a “fixer/rescuer.” After reading the history of my relationship with LO #2, my friend, the LCSW, said that I knew that I was a fixer back in HS. She also said that I’d already realized that it was all about the process and not the result. I knew that if I ever successfully “fixed” somebody, either I’d lose interest in them or they’d lose interest in me.
With LO #4, the EAP counselor said that I was trying to control LO #4 and rescue her. I took exception to that. I told the EAP counselor that I never told LO #4 what to do. The EAP counselor replied that I was too smart for that. She said that if I thought LO #4 should turn left, I told LO #4 why she shouldn’t turn right. People don’t like being told what to do but they like being warned of danger.
The EAP counselor said that I didn’t like messy people and didn’t like getting my hands dirty. That helps keep a distance and not get too directly involved. The EAP counselor said I’d see trouble coming for LO #4 and helped her avoid the problem rather than potentially dealing with it. LO #4 had more than one blind spot. That’s the way I rolled.
The EAP counselor had my number. She didn’t let me get away with anything.
Nisor,
“A man that needs rescuing or is needy is not appealing to me at all! I’d just feel pity for him. I want a man that is secured, self assured, even self made, not a sissy.”
Yes. Very much so.
“The kind that can solve problems on his own ( a Clark Gable style). I don’t want a man with baggage either, it’s a waste of energy and time trying to fix someone. I’m
not a therapist, nor do I like that particular job…”
I agree. I get tired just thinking about being someone’s therapist.
Doesn’t mean I can’t be supportive and help someone through a tough time. I’m a good listener. I can be a good cheerleader. But I don’t want to FIX someone. Being supportive and fixing are two different things.
LE,
“If you’re a “fixer/rescuer,” you’re a “fixer/rescuer.” ”
That type would need to stay away from me. 🙂 I also thinking “fixing” someone is a way to shift focus from oneself to the other person. It’s a way not deal with one’s own stuff.
Nisor,
“A man that needs rescuing or is needy is not appealing to me at all! I’d just feel pity for him. I want a man that is secured, self assured, even self made, not a sissy.
The kind that can solve problems on his own ( a Clark Gable style). I don’t want a man with baggage either, it’s a waste of energy and time trying to fix someone. “
I want women, particularly myself, the way you just describe here.
“I’m not a therapist, nor do I like that particular job…”
You think a therapist could actually fix their clients’ problems? Nay! Good ones would guide them to see the sources of issues, actually fixing is done by clients themselves — ALWAYS!
Limerent Emeritus,
Forgive me to ask frankly: why did you sound like an “echoing pet” of your EAP counselor? She said this, she said that, did you credit whatever she said to you? What did you truly think of yourself back then?
I fired one therapist one after another when they tried to tell me this or that, based on limited information or biased views. One social worker was so frustrated about my defiant arguments, that she changed her strategy after 1.5 year — she gave me a bunch of questions as homework; I could choose to answer or not those questions in the next session.
By pondering those questions in the following week, I figured out what was going on in my own head, in what directions I need to speculate my existing issues, and thus the healing began and continued. I never needed to answer her back those “sharp”, insightful questions! After 4 years, I “successfully” ended my therapy for one particular issue — dealing with narcissism and all its forms.
With my final “caring”, nosy, agenda-directed therapist in the last winter, I was not so lucky — I said one line, she diagnosed I might have this issue; another sentence, another issue. So I ended being “paralyzed”, unable to freely speak but outraged! Don’t ever believe that a therapist cannot be passively-aggressive! I wanted to punch her nose! (Luckily it was online, since she’s afraid of possible Covid spreading)
Right now, I’m the best therapist and spiritual guidance to my Self, except that my fingers still do NOT listen to me well on my piano. 😀
“Forgive me to ask frankly: why did you sound like an “echoing pet” of your EAP counselor? She said this, she said that, did you credit whatever she said to you? What did you truly think of yourself back then?”
Back then, I had some well-defined, deeply entrenched, narcissistic defenses. Most dismissive-avoidants do. It’s how we maintain our self-image when you don’t really think you can rely on anybody but yourself. I had a good idea of what I was doing but not why I was doing it or how to correct it. That’s where the pros came in.
The first person to point me in the right direction was my friend, the LCSW. She knew LO #2 when we were dating and she had the credentials to understand the important parts of my history of the relationship.
The second person who gave me more direction was a professional colleague PhD psychologist whose job it was to try to figure out how to catch spies. He told me he’d interviewed every spy the US government had in custody. He was scary smart. If he didn’t work on enhanced interrogation techniques, he knew a whole lot about them. We had some very interesting discussions collaborating on a few projects.
I told him a lot of what he told me sounded like an ex-girlfriend, LO #2. He asked some questions and told me that it sounded like I’d tangled with a borderline. He told me if he could have an hour with her, two at the most, he’d tell me exactly what she was. I told him that was neither possible nor desirable. He gave me some suggestions as to literature I might look into to figure stuff out.
By the time I’d done the DIY research based on their recommendations, I was probably a thesis short of a degree on Cluster B personality disorders.
While all that was going on, I encountered LO #4. She got inside my head. That story’s well documented elsewhere. She wasn’t the first woman to tell me a story like hers, she was the third and I knew where the first two went. I headed for the EAP counselor because I needed someone who’d keep me from doing something stupid and try to figure out why I went back down a rabbit hole.
Some professional help is better than others. I’d working with a lot of therapists and psychiatrists from dealing with my son’s near crippling depression and anxiety. I could tell the good ones from the bad ones. I fired more than one.
Limerent Emeritus,
You were lucky to have spy-catcher to show you some psychological insight…
I must have looked like vulnerable, “damaged damsel” — my facade(?) that those therapists, mostly female, just wanted to twist their fingers around my neck… I didn’t feel comfortable to work with male ones… No more of any kind for me.
Nowadays, when I felt anxious or depressed, I’d just sit down for a 30-minutes highly-focused meditation; then it would push Qi’s internal circulation reducing or eliminating anxiety or depression, which could last from 8-12 hours or longer. After four months of daily meditation, my default mood upon waking up has changed from low-grade anxiety or depression to neutral state with better rest. Perhaps my brain has been rewired little bit, hopefully.
Hi Snow: I’m glad to see you back and thundering!
Don’t you dare quit on the piano lessons! I’m very proud of you for this endeavor of yours. It takes a lot of hours of practicing , and it sounds boring at the beginning; repeat and repeat the exercise until you get it right, ahh, but when you can put a piece together is such a great pleasure and accomplishment, you’ll feel proud for the effort and time invested. Anyway, it’s all for your own pleasure not for an audience to pass reviews. Pity we will not have the opportunity to listen to you playing music. Are you learning classical or pop music?
All the best to you and many hugs❤️
Nisor,
It’s not easy for me to quit anything, piano or LO; if I had learned tte former six years ago, instead of falling in LE, I’d be playing in a concert now! Just kidding.
I intend to learn classical. I never get tired of classical music.
Happy to “thunder”/debate here from time to time. Not sure where is my punching hand, Sammy, did he often take long breaks feo LwL in the past?
Snow,
I do trust you’ll continue your piano lessons. You’re a fighter!
I miss Sammy’s input here. He’s so well versed and I enjoy his beautiful writings and thoughts. He’s such a sweet gentleman!!!
I noticed he sometimes takes long absences from the forum.
I hope he’s well and enjoying life. We send him much love ❤️.
Hugs. Keep practicing your piano lessons.
“People are meant to be responsible for themselves. Our partners are supposed to SUPPORT us in our quest in life, NOT fix us.
It is all sorts of hubris to think you can fix someone.“
Well said! That includes some arrogant therapists, who want to put a psychological leash on their client’s neck and basked in their narcissism under their professional mask!
““Fixing” someone is narcissistic and arrogant. “Helping” or “Rescuing” someone is compassionate and noble.”
I beg to differ.
Fixing, helping, rescuing … call it what you will, it is ALL not altruistic if it is about the rescuer feeling compelled (consciously or unconsciously) to “do it” for the other. When it isn’t about whether the person who are purporting to fix/help/rescue needs to be (or even asked to be) but you leap in because you can’t help yourself. Like you can’t help your limerence. See the connection?
I’m sorry, I just see so many of the limerent (men especially) here, who say (ashamedly) they want to stop limerence but in the same breath say (almost proudly) they have a rescue complex. Might I suggest that if you get rid of your rescue complex (which is unnecessary, possibly demeaning, and definitely more about you than any purported rescuee), you might gain some agency over your limerence too? The whole point of being free of limerence is to be free of something that we have no control over. If you have a “complex” of any kind, I submit that you are not free either.
And then in response to the rather interesting female perspective ala Marcia and Nisor. Women don’t WANT men who need to be rescued.
May I just point out that the logical dynamic between men who feel proud they they rescue damsels in distress COMBINED with women who do not want “weak” mean is: 1) feeding into the patriarchal system where women are the weak and men are the strong, and 2) feeding toxic masculinity where men do not feel they can be sensitive and lope off any feelings that they feel emasculate them (and they they don’t get the women).
KF,
How much do you know about Attachment Theory?
The clinical literature on that contends that the compulsion to fix/rescue goes back to early childhood and manifests itself as some type of insecure attachment style and often leads to codependency. The literature also says that changing an insecure attachment style is possible but it takes about 7 years and often requires therapeutic help.
Few therapists know about limerence but they know a lot about codependence. There’s a difference. When I started trying to solve the problem, I didn’t go back 25 years to LO #2, I went back 50 years to my mother.
Until I did the work, a lot of my life didn’t seem to make sense. After doing the work, to someone who knew what to look for, it was almost predictable.
A lot of people are drawn to unsuitable candidates for whatever reason. The question is whether they’re capable of responding to suitable candidates.
If they are capable, it can be a matter of time and luck in finding a suitable candidate while going through howevervmany dissatisfying relationships.
If they’re not capable of responding to suitable candidates, they’re pretty much screwed.
When I was working out things about LO#2, one therapist said that I was codependent. Another therapist I worked with said I wasn’t a codependent. I asked what made her think so.
“If you were a codependent, you’d still be with her.”
Adam,
Don’t pay attention when told you’re sexist for teaching your son good manners. There’s nothing more beautiful and sweet than a man with good manners. It shows the quality of parents they have. My LO was a real gentleman, always held the door for me and held my hand when crossing the streets, always paid the bills. My SO is the same and they both come from very different countries, so manners are universal. That’s one of the characteristics I noticed and appreciated in both of them. After so many years of marriage my SO still lets me in the house first, and hold the doors for me to enter in the car or the house, always pay the bill. It’s not a put on façade, it’s natural on him. That’s finase!
I asked my SO if he were on a date, would he allow the lady to pick up the bill? He said: Never! But the new generation is changing all those rules because now they both work and make good salaries. So it’s fair to share. (Caveat: That way the gentleman has more money left in his pocket to ask other ladies out… each attitude has its own consequences…)
Have a great day. ❤️
Nisor
Sometime during the summer when our oldest son came home from college and stayed with us I took him to his present lady friend’s house. (He hadn’t learned to drive yet.) One time her mother needed to have a surgery out of state and her husband took her. They were to be gone 3-4 days. So our son volunteered to stay with her and her sister so that they would not be alone while their parents were gone.
When I came to pick him up and bring him home, I was talking to her parent while he packed up. They could not stop bragging about how well mannered, chivalrous and respectful he was. I told them, that their mother always kept them in line while I was out putting food on the table.
My son came down the stairs and they told them how thankful they were and that he was brave and chivalrous for looking out for their daughters. I did not expect this lol But my son goes “yeah I get that from dad. He taught me never to let anyone *uck with the women that you care about in your life.” They said “well he taught you well.” I’m not gonna lie, I felt a bit proud in that moment. I didn’t realize I affected him that way.
Gosh, Kindly Firmly, you sound kind of angry. I’m glad you are sharing your perspective. It is very different than mine.
I love the patriarchy. I love strong men. I love when they happily help other people. Here is an example…
At our summer camp, I took charge of keeping our handwashing station full of water. It’s a 5-gallon container with a spigot. I had to carry it about a tenth of a mile to the water source. Every time I came back with a full container, I was soaked and obviously struggling to lug the heavy container. I had to take frequent breaks. I rested the jug on the ground and caught my breath then I talked myself into carrying it a few more steps. I had 3 men at camp who really wanted to carry that water for me and I knew it. I could see the distress on their faces as they watched me struggle. I passed other men from other camps who also offered to carry it for me. Each time, I replied, “No thank you. I really appreciate your offer to help, but I’m trying to prove to myself that I can do it.” I looked ridiculous carrying that jug. I am a small woman. I have a lot of talents, carrying heavy objects is not one of them. But the men let me struggle through it anyway. I am so so so glad that I have the option of carrying something heavy. I don’t have to do it. I am surrounded by kind men who love to take care of other people. I love that about men! That drive to take care of others is wonderful.
Here is another example. My washing machine broke a few days ago. At first, I thought it would cost over $1,000 because I would have to choose a new washer (I hate shopping by the way), and arrange for delivery and pickup of the old washer. I’m very cheap and didn’t want to spend money on a new washer. My SO decided to troubleshoot our washer. Between the two of us, we diagnosed the problem. Here is the thing, I am capable of diagnosing the problem, but there is no way that my little body could pull out the washer and start messing with it. I am not strong enough. My SO is really strong! Watching him take care of this problem was fun. He felt proud that he could fix our problem. My washer is fixed and the parts were just over $100. Yay for my strong SO! I am grateful that he enjoys taking care of our family and that he has skills that I lack.
Maybe I misunderstood your message. Maybe you weren’t talking about stuff like this.
Best wishes!
Lovisa
Helping in terms of what you are referencing is fine. I really like when a man gets the car, etc. I think it’s chivalrous.
But fixing is different. If someone is going through, for example, a depression … I can help him find a therpaist, I can ask how the therapy is going, I can encourage him to eat better and exercise, etc. But I cannot fix the issue for him. That’s something the person has to do for themselves.
Okay, that makes sense. I misunderstood. Thanks Marcia.
Marcia, I’m with you on the car thing. They’re so freakin hot when they fix the car! I don’t know why it’s such a turn on.
Lovisa,
I meant getting the car door for the woman. Or holding the door going into a restaurant. That type of thing. Love that! 🙂
Marcia,
Totally agree with you here on “fixing”, and vice versa; it applies to women as well. If some modern “knight” try to “come down” to “fix” me, I’ll first rip some mental issues out of his head… .
Marcia,
I hold door for men and sometimes let them pass in the narrow hallway first; vice versa. Sometimes, I insist passing first, if they don’t show “chivalrous” intention.
Snowphoenix,
“If some modern “knight” try to “come down” to “fix” me, I’ll first rip some mental issues out of his head… .”
Me, too. That type of guy would turn me off.
“Sometimes, I insist passing first, if they don’t show “chivalrous” intention.”
I don’t expect chivalrous behavior. But it’s sure nice when they do it. Particularly if you’re on a date. A guy doesn’t have to spend a lot of money (that means little to me), but if gets the door, that will a lot of points with me.
Everyone has mental issues of some sorts, but unfortunately more than many believe that some solutions come from external sources, but they can only be sorted out and generated from WITHIN — our own mind, body, and spirit!
I don’t expect chivalrous behavior in any public place but truly appreciate it when it drops down. But some people with narcissistic traits, such as LO, got into a habit to pass the narrow hallways first; then, I’d “insist” on passing first. It’s only fair to take turns.
Some old-fashioned colleagues could not help with their chivalrous habits, which made me uncomfortable; I did not grow up with such cultural elements.
Snowphoenix,
“LO, got into a habit to pass the narrow hallways first; then, I’d “insist” on passing first. It’s only fair to take turns.”
I don’t know what you mean. LO went ahead of you and wasn’t chivalrous?
“Some old-fashioned colleagues could not help with their chivalrous habits, which made me uncomfortable; I did not grow up with such cultural elements.”
I didn’t grew up with it, either. My father doesn’t have a chivalrous bone in his body. He plows ahead of all of us, not even noticing. Which is why I really notice when someone is chivalrous. Oh, wow, someone with some home training! 🙂
Marcia,
Yes, one little thing that bothered me in the past, not this year at all, was that I let LO pass the hallway a couple of times, since he’s tall and wide-boned, and I did not feel like physically “running into” him. But then, he seemed to get into a habit of, or felt entitled to, passing first, instead of letting me take turns sometimes! That was one of reasons I called him a narcissist!
But if I need to put something in a higher place either in a public place or in my office, I’d directly fetch LO to help out, he always did it gladly.
I feel the same way when others show small chivalrous deeds to me… It feels like being respected and “cared” in public…
Snowphoenix,
“Yes, one little thing that bothered me in the past, not this year at all, was that I let LO pass the hallway a couple of times, since he’s tall and wide-boned, and I did not feel like physically “running into” him. But then, he seemed to get into a habit of, or felt entitled to, passing first, instead of letting me take turns sometimes! That was one of reasons I called him a narcissist!”
I don’t know if I call that narcissism. Narcissism, to me, is a really high level of selfishness. Maybe even using that seflishness to hurt or manipulate others.
What he did sounds more like cluelessness. Like someone who you see and ask how they are but they never think to ask how you are. I’d classify it as garden variety self-involvement/slight rudeness.
Marcia,
This was Sensor LO, never clueless! He’s alert all the time as if he had 4 pairs of eyes circling his head! As I mentioned before, he could tuned and adapted his chitchats to anyone just to be agreeable and liked….
He had other narcissistic traits but could not be classified as a Narc, (I have 35% myself) as I mistakenly did and then took back my words. I never hesitated to apologize if I recognized my own errors whether it was needed or not.
Anyway, it was all in the past…. This whole year due to the schedules, we did not have to pass each other on one particular narrow hallway. Once we had to, I just took the lead.
Now, everything appears gray, I could summon up peace of mind anytime through my meditations, but not substantial joy.
“I don’t expect chivalrous behavior. But it’s sure nice when they do it. Particularly if you’re on a date. ”
Marcia
When our oldest son went out on his first dinner date (he was probably around 17) with his now ex lady friend, I came home from work to him pacing the hallway. I find out that they are going on a dinner date from my wife. Before he left he says “dad I’m nervous.” I said “what for?”. “This our first date, I need some advice.” I looked at him and thought for a minute and then said “there’s two things a woman’s hand should never touch on a date; a door handle and the check.”
Admitting that is a risk worth taking even though I get called out as sexist a lot when I share that story. But I stand by my statement.
Adam,
““there’s two things a woman’s hand should never touch on a date; a door handle and the check.””
That’s sweet. For the check, I do have some leeway. I read this other blog years ago. A dating advice blog. And some of the guys were talking about how expensive dating can get. Even just drinks and appetizers can run up to $100. It can get pricey.
“Admitting that is a risk worth taking even though I get called out as sexist a lot when I share that story. But I stand by my statement.”
I don’t think it’s sexiest. Although, yes, there are some women who would expect to go dutch and get their own door. Depends on the woman.
But for me, personally, when a man gets the door, I think: His mother has taught him well! 🙂
” It can get pricey.”
Marcia
To be fair it was my money lol He didn’t have a job yet. His mother and I wanted him to focus on school.
“Although, yes, there are some women who would expect to go dutch and get their own door. Depends on the woman.”
When he did get back from his date and we were talking I told him after the first date, you both have to come to an agreement on how those kinds of things are handled. Your mother herself is still like “really?” when I walk her to the car in the rain or open a door. But we are married and she means it jokingly. But you have to be aware of cues that she might not like that but won’t say it outright. Don’t do those things if it upsets her. But on a first date, a man should do those things in my opinion.
Adam,
“But on a first date, a man should do those things in my opinion.”
Yes, I agree.
Also … a man with a plan is a sexy man. Nothing worse than: I don’t know. What do you want to do? At least have some suggestions.
So having a plan for what you two are doing, getting the door, picking up the checking. That’s an A+ for a first date. It doesn’t have to be an expensive date. But that the effort he puts in is appreciated.
KF,
““Fixing” someone is narcissistic and arrogant. “Helping” or “Rescuing” someone is compassionate and noble.”
I beg to differ.
Fixing, helping, rescuing … call it what you will, it is ALL not altruistic if it is about the rescuer feeling compelled (consciously or unconsciously) to “do it” for the other. When it isn’t about whether the person who are purporting to fix/help/rescue needs to be (or even asked to be) but you leap in because you can’t help yourself. Like you can’t help your limerence. See the connection?
I’m sorry, I just see so many of the limerent (men especially) here, who say (ashamedly) they want to stop limerence but in the same breath say (almost proudly) they have a rescue complex. Might I suggest that if you get rid of your rescue complex (which is unnecessary, possibly demeaning, and definitely more about you than any purported rescuee), you might gain some agency over your limerence too?”
First, I was being facetious. That’s what I told the EAP counselor. She didn’t buy it.
I agree with you. LwL has a tendency to drift periodically. It’s drifting now. Compared to the early days of LwL, the current vibe is a kinder, gentler place (sigh). It was more hard core in the early years. The answers are usually obvious.
More often than not, it’s not a question of having the capability of doing the right thing, it’s a lack of will to do the right thing. And, limerents, myself included, will go to great lengths to reconcile the cognitive dissonance and try to walk a line that they know that they shouldn’t be walking in the first place. There’s a lot of that going here right now.
If you know you have a rescue complex, ideally you’d want to deal with it and get rid of limerence. I can tell you from experience that if you deal with root causes, you can deal with limerence. I might still be vulnerable to limerence but it won’t be the same glimmer attracting me. Considering how old I am now, if I haven’t encountered another type of limerent threat by now, I don’t think I’m likely to.
I understand what glimmer represents and I understand what LOs represent. It’s not attractive and, all things considering, not flattering to an LO. “Hi, as compelling as I think you are, you remind me of my chronically unhappy, negligent, alcoholic mother who took off on me.”
Yeah, I’m sure that’s what any woman would want to hear. It wasn’t how my wife made me feel that attracted me to her. It was the way she didn’t make me feel when I was around her that attracted me to her. She was like no woman I’d ever known before.
I also know from other peoples’ experience what addressing the root causes can entail and what the consequences can be. People won’t dig that deep for any number of reasons. It’s one of the many reasons people might stay in a bad relationship. I was lucky. All the people that I needed to confront were long dead or no longer active in my life. The EAP counselor role played all the important players in the saga. I think she enjoyed it. It may not have been as satisfying as actually confronting some of those people but it worked.
Confronting some of those issues can blow your world apart.
Kindly Firmly,
Cannot agree more with all what you have said here!
Fixing, rescuing, and helping with mental or emotional issues (apart from physical or mechanical) anyone else, men or women, is plainly arrogant, if not narcissistic.
As we all change and evolve constantly, one would be more than half “enlightened” one knows what’s the best for oneself at any given moment or situations and sticks on self-analysis, self-adjustment, self-growth journey. Anyone, including professional therapists, who claims to know what’s best for another and how to “help” or “fix” others’ emotional or mental problems is just ignorant of human natures and grandiose narcissistic.
With some insightful guidance, sufficient knowledge, true independence, and acute awareness, and discipline, ONE , only One’s Self, can fix one’s own issues in the head.
Typo: “one would be more than half “enlightened” IF one knows what’s the best for oneself…”
I don’t mean fixing the person, my wife and her in this case, I mean fixing their problems. I don’t think you can fix a person because a person’s problems/issues doesn’t make them who they are. It’s just something that they are going through. And I don’t mean it in a sexist way.
A year or so before he started college (2021) he was very surprisingly dumped by his then girlfriend of 2 or more years in a damn text. When I figured after his mother and I talked to him that this was not something I could reach in and fix. A broken heart can’t be magically healed. Later after his first year of college was over he came home for the summer. And numerous times felt comfortable to ask me things. Especially about sex related things with his now lady friend. He would say “Dad can you fix this? I don’t know how.” And I would try my best with whatever is was. And whether I could fix it or not he would keep coming back to me. But when he got his heart broken his mother helped him heal because all I could do was be angry with this “woman” for what she did. And I couldn’t help him, angry.
Shortly after we got married (1999) but before our firstborn (2003) I spent time encouraging my wife to take concern with her health. She needed to loose weight and think about eating healthier. There was a park in Illinois (close to where we lived in St. Louis) Pere Marquette State Park that previous to meeting her I loved to take hikes at. It has beautiful scenery. When we went for the first time together we had to take frequent breaks for her to catch her breath. She tried to work a retail job and found she couldn’t because her weight made it difficult to stand that long. I conveyed my concern and finally we got a doctor’s consultation on a gastric bypass surgery and she decided to go through with it. She has remained on the eating regiment the doctor prescribed to this day. Over time the weight came off and I could tell how much healthier and active she was. I helped her fix that problem. And it brought me joy that I could help her fix that issue.
Transversely I had to learn when my wife was diagnosed with bipolar in 2009, that is not a problem/issue that I can’t “fix”. I was very hard on myself for very long that I could not fix this. There had to be something I could do I just couldn’t figure it out. Why can’t I take this pain away from her. Why can’t I fix her past trauma? Am I just an inadequate husband? I must be.
It’s not about fixing a person, it’s about fixing problems so that they can live a happier and more fulfilling life. But of course I had to come to grips with the fact that I can’t “fix” mental illness. All I can do is be there for her and support her. That was a hard pill to swallow because, to me, that was a failure on my part.
Her problems were fixable. Not saying that she was a broken woman. Quite the opposite actually. She was a very accomplished woman. But helping with the work load she was given trying to fix someone else’s mistakes; yeah that I could do. Help fix that problem for her. Fix her possibly soured view of men due to her ex and her divorce? Show her how a lady should be treated by a man? Yeah I could at least try to.
One day just as we were about to leave work it started raining hard. It was just the two of us, others had left a hour earlier or so. I asked her to wait under the awning at the front door for a minute. I went to my truck and got my umbrella and walked to her truck. On the trip there she said “Adam. Really who does this anymore? I’m not afraid of getting wet.” To which I said “I still walk my wife to our vehicles with an umbrella if it is raining. A man doesn’t have manners and chivalry because he is trying to say a woman is incapable herself. He should be doing it because he wants to show he values and respects her. And that’s the way I was raised.” She looked at me with a raised eyebrow and smiled. “Okay if you say so Adam.” I think it sad that a younger generation of women don’t even know what chivalrous treatment is.
Maybe that explains myself better about my earlier post.
Adam,
We all can help our loved ones fix some external, specific, tangible issues — someone else’s or the world’s problems, but we can NEVER fix others’ REACTIONS towards those external problems, whether from childhood or current affairs. It’s the main focus of this discussion of thread — fixing others’ mental states (I am unwilling to use word “mental illness” — they’re just psychological reactions). We can be emotional and mental support to our loves ones as they have to face and deal with their own mental states,.
Your examples just prove my point here…
This is my first time commenting on this site. I did not know the concept of Limerence until I found this although I have been suffering from it for four years. My situation seems to be significantly different than everybody else on this site. My LO is 29 years younger than I am. He pursued me for months before I agreed to go out with him. That began a four year intimate relationship that has largely destroyed my life and peace. Because of our age difference, his goal in life is to get married and have additional children. He has one son now. I cannot fulfill that goal for him. He has periodically left me to try and pursue this goal but always comes back to me. And against all rational thinking, I take him back. The ups and downs of the relationship have been excruciating. Many of you have what appear to be largely imaginary relationships with your LO. Mine is real and in the flesh and in my bed. Which makes it very real and so hard to leave. Unfortunately, the situation has no solution where we are together long term. I broke up with him 12 excruciating days ago and I am holding on by an emotional thread to my sanity. Until I found this site I swore that I “Love” him. But my complete inability to function at times and the fact that thoughts of him fill my
Mind constantly and prevent me from accomplishing anything, tell me that I am limerent. I have begun the emergency reprogramming course and that is helping. I would appreciate any advice that you have to offer. Thank you
If your “love affair” is real, and this guy CHOSE to come back repeatedly, I assume he’ knew what he’s doing, why can’t you just take the PA ride as long as it lasts? Or you afraid that when he leaves eventually, you’d get badly hurt, so it’s better to end it now?
Dancing fool hi ,
What a problematic situation! I agree with Snow , if you feel you’re too attached and feel you’re going to get hurt, in the long run , is best you walk. What is that that he wants children and “looking” forward to have them when he knows you cannot have them? That says it all very clear, that when he finds the women he needs he’s going to leave you. Have some self respect , dignity and value yourself and get out of there fast! He’s using you. You’re worth more than that. There’s plenty of fish in the ocean to stick around with a fellow who doesn’t value you.
Best wishes and good luck.
The world would be a much less nicer place if we did not help each other. I do so every day. Helping someone carry something that is too heavy for them is very nice. Acts of chivalry like holding the door is not necessary, but a nice GESTURE – I would say it isn’t help at all, but a species of social interaction. Like how some women like to cook for a guy.
What I am talking about is this rush to help “troubled” “broken” “traumatized” “wronged” damsels in distress thing. Maybe it is guys not realizing that just cos they are bigger in size and it is helpful for them to carry a bucket of water, it doesn’t really translate well to fixing less tangible things. And women not realizing that while it makes sense to accept an offer to carry water, you should tell a guy it isn’t his business to try to carry your troubles. Especially if he isn’t your husband. (But even if he is your husband.)
Men-with-a-rescue-complex, I am saying if you are honest about where your impulse is coming from, it isn’t altruism although you might tell yourself it is, because that message is societally sanctioned, and it makes you feel less guilty about pursuing your urges – the urges of limerence, in the case of many people here on LwL. I dare I say, some people feel more “manly” if they feel they can rescue a woman. It is about YOUR identity as a man to fix this. So, it’s about YOU, your male identity, nothing to do with the object of your misguided attempts to fix/help/rescue when you get to the bottom of it.
As LE says, it may something to do with your attachment wounds (I am a recovering anxious-avoidant myself) stemming from dysfunctional primary attachment figures in your past (oh those non-emancipated women from the 50s and 60s who raised a legion of young ‘uns – who, guess what, are about the ages of most of us here), or it could be societal conditioning (ie. the patriarchal messages we get from Disney to our mothers). I actually think the latter has a bigger part than we think, considering how prevalent this affliction of “rescue complex” is along gender lines (if it were just attachment, it would surely be less gendered as men and women have equal chance of having attachment problems in their past).
Don’t get me wrong, I do not hate men, its just I see this deluded pattern over and over again where men seem to want to rush in and poke their noses where they are of no help what so ever, and they they try to justify it as some manly “rescue complex”, where as they are really satisfying themselves. As parents we are told when we rush in to try to fix things for our children, we rob them of a chance to learn and to become strong. You do the same when you treat a woman that way. It is no kindness.
If you had a daughter nowadays, you would be telling her she doesn’t need anyone to rescue her, she should be building up her own strengths so she can support herself financially, emotionally, mentally, etc. This does not mean life will not be more wonderful with the right partner; but it doesn’t come out of a place of neediness or assumed and artificial weakness. As a man, such a woman may not trigger the “hero’s instinct” but wouldn’t you much rather prefer a strong and capable partner by your side to face the difficulties life will inevitably bring? Actually, some men can’t handle that. This makes me think of a Q and A where a man from the audience was berating a feminist woman speaker and saying how unwomanly and unattractive she was when expressing her feminist views and she would never find a man if she kept it up. She told him she had no interest in a man like that anyway!
But I guess there are women who love men to rescue them (men are actually really easy to manipulate that way, if a woman is so inclined, just saying) so there is someone for everyone.
@ LE
“I also know from other peoples’ experience what addressing the root causes can entail and what the consequences can be. People won’t dig that deep for any number of reasons. It’s one of the many reasons people might stay in a bad relationship … Confronting some of those issues can blow your world apart.”
This is so true, and a compelling reason not to not deal with a root cause. Can’t blame anyone for not wanting to blow up their world (and those of their loved ones).
Kindly Firmly hi.
A good definition of a Savior Complex is to be found in : Health Line. Com.
“
A Savior complex, or white knight syndrome, describes this need to “save” people by fixing their problems.
If you have savior complex, you might:
1- only feel good about yourself when helping someone
2-believe helping others is your purpose
3- expend so much energy trying to fix others that you end up burning out.
There’s a difference between helping and saving…”
Read the whole article, very enlightening!
Also, when I said I like strong men, it doesn’t mean a man without feelings. A man should be able to cry in his women’s shoulders, express to her his fears and shortcomings, be kind and soft when dealing with a lady. Opening the car door and the entrance doors, letting her go through first it’s very attractive to me. The men in LwL community are very sensitive men with fine feelings, that’s why they come here, to express their feelings, while being strong 💪🏽 males in their daily lives. And women also can take care of themselves, support themselves, be assertive etc. but it’s feels great to have a strong male next to you, a male you can lean on. (at least for me) Don’t have to go to the extremes . There’s always the middle ground for both men and women. Don’t see why so much consternation… everyone has strong and weak characteristics ingrained in their DNA. Can’t help that, it’s nature, cannot go against it.
Have a good day.
“For others, there is a problem. Yes, they grasp the concept of why purposeful living is valuable and effective, but nothing presents itself as a promising option. How do you find a purposeful outlet for your energy? How do you find meaning? Should you change job, go on a long vacation, find a (new) partner? Where do you begin, if you have no clear sense of calling?”
Meaning in life? Hm. A very interesting topic. I believe that some personality types e.g. INFJs are driven to find/seek meaning even where there is no meaning. Some people might feel limerence is meaningless, or pure escapism. I beg to differ. I believe limerence can be unhealthy at times. However, on the other hand, I have found my own LEs meaningful, but usually in totally unexpected ways.
For me, I don’t think limerence was ever about sex, or romance, or securing the ideal relationship – although limerence initially appeared to be about all of those things. I think limerence for me ultimately became a journey of finding the meaning behind everything that’s happened in my life to date, even if I had to invent that meaning. It became a quest to find/see “patterns” in life. Patterns that exist in my own life and patterns that may occur in all human lives.
In other words, I have found a great deal of purpose in limerence, because for me it’s been a springboard to analysing love relationships between men and women.
This might sound very strange coming from a gay man, who should be off supporting all sorts of liberal causes and rebelling against anything that smacks of religion or conservatism, but I am utterly fascinated by nuances and complexities of traditional marriage. And I think my obsession with traditional marriage is driven by my enduring love for my (deeply flawed but wonderfully endearing) parents and my desire to empathise fully with both my father and my mother. In essence, I want to crawl into my father’s skin (metaphorically speaking) and see the world through his eyes and I want to crawl into my mother’s skin (metaphorically speaking) and see the world through her eyes too. 🤔
My parents are both good people, and my parents had a deeply unhappy marriage. I feel some kind of “mutual failure of empathy” led to the breakdown of their marriage. (Adult heterosexual men find it very hard to understand adult heterosexual women; adult heterosexual women find it very hard to understand adult heterosexual men). I think my purpose in life for the last twenty years has been trying to understand the complexities of monogamous heterosexual love. I’m fascinated by the differences that seem to exist between men and women.
Limerence initially led me to explore masculinity. For a while, I was obsessed with masculinity, and idealised masculinity. But, interestingly, my fascination with masculinity didn’t lead me to reject women and/or devalue femininity. Rather, my fascination with masculinity gradually led me back to women and the great value to be found in femininity. It’s almost like masculinity has no meaning without femininity and man as a sex had no purpose without woman (and vice versa).
I agree with Camille Paglia that heterosexual women are infinitely fascinating and basically the glory of creation (or evolution, if one prefers). A life without heterosexual women in it is a very dull life indeed, a life not worth living. However, some heterosexual women – such as my mother – can be quite challenging to live with. But that’s all part of their magic, all part of their charm, all part of the fun. One must always forgive a heterosexual woman for being difficult.
I’ve kind of reached a point in my life where I’m reintegrating things I’ve previously repudiated or rejected. I realise what an enormous debt I owe to my mother. My mother basically made me the man I am. I think I owe BOTH my masculinity and my femininity to my mother, which is strange. My femininity consists of all the things about my mother I love/adore whereas my masculinity seems to have been carved out of all the things about my mother I didn’t like.
Religion has provided meaning for my life, because it provides a vocabulary for one’s moral choices. So, even if one consciously chooses to do the wrong thing, for example, that’s “sin” in religious jargon, and one can construct a complex narrative around that if one feels the need. (One can at least talk about why one felt the need to rebel or reject social norms and discuss the merits of one’s choices. One might even identify with historical figures who took an unconventional path, and then find meaning in one’s unconventional path).
I’m not sure why modern liberal women are supposedly depressed. I don’t know enough about liberal women as a group, to be honest. However, I wonder if liberal women are unhappy because they actually have nothing left to rebel against? Remember, Eros is all about the forbidden, breaking taboos, mystery, intrigue, etc. It’s a paradox, but if nothing in a society is forbidden, then nothing in that society is sexy/exciting either. Eros requires a heightened awareness of transgression. Eros requires “sin consciousness” even if one doesn’t believe in sin. There’s a reason people rarely become limerent for available parties.
So, yeah, maybe if modern liberal women (and modern liberal men) want to add a frisson to their lives, they need to go back to religion. At least, then, they’d have some interesting taboos to break and some forbidden fruit worth picking. When everything in a society is permissible, life itself becomes unrelentingly bland. This is probably why progressivism is doomed to failure. Progressivism is doomed to failure because progressivism in the long run is quite boring – Sammy’s controversial opinion of the day. Human beings don’t like being bored. 🙄😉
Sammy,
“Remember, Eros is all about the forbidden, breaking taboos, mystery, intrigue, etc. … Eros requires a heightened awareness of transgression. Eros requires “sin consciousness” even if one doesn’t believe in sin. There’s a reason people rarely become limerent for available parties.”
Totally agree with this. Part of the reason I became limerent was the transgressive nature of the LE. He was married, and I’ll admit that the thought of chucking all of his society’s rules was kind of thrilling.
But the flip side of this … how do you make a “normal relationship” — read: societally sanctioned (an available, “good choice”) — seem as sexy, particularly over time?
Marcia, Sammy,
To me, there was never space or interval between a Big Glimmer and Limerence, they happened at the same time, period! No judgement or choice involved, everything happened within 5 seconds! How on earth could my subconscious know who was available or unavailable??
Due to cptsd, I never pursued novelty in romance or “pair-bonding”, I wanted more than anything else to feel At Home in an embrace of strong, steady, and loving arms… so Sammy’s Eros definition does NOT apply to me at all!
Also, due to the deep fear of societal “punishment” in my OCC, breaking rules in either shore did not bring me any thrills, but endless nervousness and nightmares, although I might have unconsciously tried, since age of 5-6, to taste the forbidden fruits, which would uplift the unbearable oppression and absolute control of authorities.
Sammy: where do you get such a definition of Eros? By Greek mythology or Christianity? It’s deeply puzzling and somewhat disturbing to me — “transgression”, “sin consciousness”… After learning a bit about psychophysiological system, I tend to think Eros is strongly related to genomic instinctual drive, which is mysterious. — we know the biological causes of pair-bonding attraction, but not why by this person not another….
“Sammy: where do you get such a definition of Eros? By Greek mythology or Christianity? It’s deeply puzzling and somewhat disturbing to me — “transgression”, “sin consciousness”… After learning a bit about psychophysiological system, I tend to think Eros is strongly related to genomic instinctual drive, which is mysterious. — we know the biological causes of pair-bonding attraction, but not why by this person not another….”
@Snowphoenix.
I’m probably explaining myself badly, as per usual. One could probably describe Eros as many different things. What is Eros? I think Eros is related to pure sexuality but it’s also different from pure sexuality. I think Eros is imagination, sexual imagination. Eros is what goes on in people’s minds and not necessarily what people do with specific body parts. It’s not the mechanics but the emotion.
Eros isn’t sex. Eros is sexual tension. Eros is sort of that feeling of suspense between people who may or may not be into each other, and the suspense is pleasurable. And some people (predominantly women, I should imagine) find sexual tension way more exciting than they find sex, or they require the tension to get to the sex.
Eros is necessary for desire, in other words. Eros creates mood. Most women have an awfully hard time getting into the mood if Eros is running low in a relationship, whereas men can still enjoy sex without Eros – much to the frustration of female partners. A man ignorant of Eros won’t “read” a woman’s body in the right way. As a result, the woman will feel the relationship lacks emotional intimacy – because it does. She won’t feel seen or heard during lovemaking.
Eros is what isn’t said in an interaction as much as what is said. Eros is about what isn’t seen as much as about what is seen, which is why social taboos and religious strictures can (ironically) greatly heighten Eros and a permissive society can diminish Eros. The least erotic place on earth, for example, is a nudist colony, because everything’s clearly visible and there’s no mystery – nothing to wonder about, nothing for the imagination to dwell on lovingly. No “what ifs” and no “if onlys”.
However, let’s say a man passes a woman in the street. Let’s say this woman is sumptuously dressed. She’s wearing a large black hat with a veil. For a fleeting moment, this woman lifts her head up and laughs and the man catches a glimpse of red lips. Maybe he sees a flash or teeth. Maybe he also sees a finely-pencilled eyebrow or a bejewelled earlobe. The woman then tips her head down. The last thing the man remembers seeing is the stockinged foot and expensive black stiletto of the woman as she climbs into a cab. That’s erotic. The woman in question may not be beautiful. But she has awakened the man’s Eros – she has stirred his imagination.
Camille Paglia says gay men get “caught in their mother’s Eros”. I think Eros here means imagination. The mother is a very charming, very attractive character with an extremely vivid imagination and she figuratively “seduces” the boy to live in an enchanted fantasy world with her. The mother does this to her son because she is lonely. She is disappointed in her dull husband. Initially, the mother tried to draw her husband – the boy’s father – into the magical world of feminine Eros because she loved her boy’s father with all her heart, but the father wasn’t responsive to the mother’s invitation.
The mother turns to the son for consolation because her relationship with her husband (who may be an exceedingly good man, btw) doesn’t have the emotional depths that she craves. The son grows up with enhanced artistic gifts due to his mother’s influence, but also struggles to feel attraction toward females his own age – perhaps because he’s still in thrall to his glamorous mother.
Younger women can’t compete with the gay man’s quasi-erotic memories of his glamorous mother. In the mind of the gay man, his mother is an erotic woman. His mother is in fact the ONLY erotic woman. However, the gay man’s mother is also a forbidden erotic woman. (The woman is forbidden because she belongs by rights to the boy’s father, even if she has angrily rejected the boy’s father).
There is something incredibly powerful about female Eros. I personally think female Eros is stronger than male Eros, and female Eros is stronger than male Eros because female Eros is that “aura” that attracts men to women in the first place. Men don’t need an overabundance of Eros because men don’t usually need to attract. Men are the parties that are attracted. Eros as used here is “the power to attract”. Female Eros is woman’s power to attract man.
Sammy,
“Eros isn’t sex. Eros is sexual tension. Eros is sort of that feeling of suspense between people who may or may not be into each other, and the suspense is pleasurable. And some people (predominantly women, I should imagine) find sexual tension way more exciting than they find sex, or they require the tension to get to the sex.”
I agree with this. I’d also say that the idea of the seduction — the woman thinking about what she’ll do and say and try or what he’ll do and say and try — can be sexier than the sex itself.
Snowphoenix,
“How on earth could my subconscious know who was available or unavailable??”
Idk, but every one of my LOs was with unavialable or emotionally unavailable. I don’t know how I do it, but if someone really lights me up (I don’t mean I think he’s kind of cute but he floors me) … he’s probably a really bad choice. There’s something in my subconscoius, like a scanner, that picks these people.
“Due to cptsd, I never pursued novelty in romance or “pair-bonding”, I wanted more than anything else to feel At Home in an embrace of strong, steady, and loving arms… so Sammy’s Eros definition does NOT apply to me at all!”
I have cptsd, and I wanted novelty and excitement and definitely transgression. I wanted to feel slighlty off-balance. I didn’t want to feel at home; I equated that with sexual boredom. But that’s me.
Marcia,
I guess each person with cptsd deals with it and heals in different ways. I experienced such horrible abandonment melange, Mother’s unbelievable coldness and abuse in all levels, that all my life I was subconsciously after genuine affection and warmth through emotional & physical intimacy — finding an ideal, missing parent in a LO or lover; but Eros alone in novelty or even marriage did not provide that; Ultimately, one has to become one’s own parent!
If necessary to choose between Philia and Eros, I’ll take the former; one simply can’t have everything.
Snowphoenix,
“If necessary to choose between Philia and Eros, I’ll take the former; one simply can’t have everything.”
Well, Philia was never on the table with my last LO. We weren’t friends and weren’t particuarly close. Despite my efforts, it was like trying to pry open a clam to get to know him.
And I had friends. He was supposed to bring the sexy, which he did in spades. 🙂
I wouldn’t necessarily pick one over the other. I think they’re both important. But sometimes different people provide different things.
If you ask me, which no one did, I think a lot of limerents hide Eros behind Phillia.
I’m kind of the opposite. I led with the Eros. I never thought of us as friends. To be honest, I don’t think a friend would have treated me the way he did. And I had male friends. I thought of them much differently. Which isn’t to say the friendships were devoid of all Eros (there was some teasing and some flirting), but it wasn’t enough to act on (at least on my end) and it couldn’t even begin to compare with the level of Eros in limerence.
Marcia,
We all hope we do not to choose between, and two characteristics could united in one person, including ourselves.
But the reality defies us since the dawn of human history, no matter how much we have “evolved”, supposed to be more advanced and logical than other mammal. All “superior” human theories, mental trainings and moral restraints still can’t beat up our biological drives and mysterious preferences…
The human world is far, far, far from perfect particularly in relationships, while we could send rockets to anywhere in the sky… 😒
@adam,
I know my glimmer was totally Eros based, but I could not go for a PA prior to EA even that LO was available. Between LO#4/SO and LO#5, I was in limerence for 1.5 years with a 14 yrs older, much accomplished colleague who was full of himself with energetic, flamboyant aura and a distinguished look.
He took an interest in me (I could sense through his frequent flatteries and flirts) and hinted a date one day when we were alone in the office. But when I took a close look into his eyes, I felt chill — there was eager, inquisitive look but also coldness in them. So I subtly brushed the invitation off. It took another while to have my mild LE completely killed. Until this, I totally forgot about this gentleman scholar.
Also, as I discussed with Sammy a while ago, I seemed to be much more limerent for my own Eros without taking a lead to put it into action or even rejecting LO’s attempt, if the desired EA was missing. We cptsd folks are HIGHly sensitive about others’ genuine affections.
Again, everyone’s LE is unique. For people with some historical traumas, their limerence is much complex.
Adam,
To be more accurate, I was always in LE with my own daydreams and imaginations for PA or EA with an idealized version of LO, which gave me euphoria, not LO themselves, who were always disappointing sooner or later….
With my regular males friends, I would not blink my eyes if they stand naked in front of me…. No glimmer, Eros — first sight or cultivated!
What makes one different from another lies in his or her eyes… beyond words….
Snowphoenix,
“We all hope we do not to choose between, and two characteristics could united in one person, including ourselves.”
Hard to do. I think those two parts of me are bifurcated. Certain people light up he Eros, certain people the Philia.
“But the flip side of this … how do you make a “normal relationship” — read: societally sanctioned (an available, “good choice”) — seem as sexy, particularly over time?”
@Marcia.
That’s a great question. I don’t have an answer down pat. However, I strongly suspect that if there is an answer, the answer has something to do with “intimacy” versus “intensity”.
Limerents mistake intensity for intimacy. In long-term stable relationships, it’s not the intensity that provides the sizzle but the emotional intimacy that provides the sizzle. You know, you can really let go – in the bedroom and elsewhere – with a partner you trust.
Basically, if a man and a woman have a really good emotional relationship, there will be something naturally sexy about the way they interact with each other, a kind of collaborative sexiness and not an adversarial sexiness. But the man has to be in his masculine energy and the woman has to be in her feminine energy for this dynamic to work.
For example, the man must resist his natural inclination to be passive in relation to the female. He must not let his female partner manipulate him. A man who can be manipulated by his female partner isn’t a masculine man. Even worse, the woman who is manipulating him will see that he isn’t a masculine man and she won’t feel safe and she’ll stop being attracted to him – even though she’s technically the “party in the wrong”.
Intimacy is when you feel completely safe with a person – so safe you can be your true self. Women want men they can trust. If a woman can manipulate her male partner, she can’t really trust him – he has no boundaries and no backbone. It’s ironic: some women will relentlessly test men’s boundaries, but all women ultimately want a man with boundaries. Because a man with boundaries is a man who makes his woman feel safe.
Hi Sammy,
“Intimacy is when you feel completely safe with a person – so safe you can be your true self.”
Yep, this is so true ! The only person I’ve been myself is with my current SO. I know I had the “intensity” with LO, but the “emotional intimacy” with SO from the get go.
And yes, I as a heterosexual woman, certainly want a man I can trust and would not feel safe or respect him if I can manipulate or emasculate him in any way. And, my SO as well as my LO have boundaries that they abide to. They won’t budge not even a tiny bit… (try we may but without success! ) Men also like and appreciate women who keep their boundaries ; it goes both ways, in order to have a balanced long term relationship . One relatively know these things before making a commitment, not all but most, I think.
Have a great day.
Hi Sammy,
Hi Sammy,
I agree with you that women want a man they can’t dominate or manipulate. And that for a woman to be attracted to a man, she has to respect him (and she can’t if he has no backbone). And yes, a woman needs a certain level of safety to really let go sexually. No woman is going to let go if she knows the guy isn’t sticking around and will get up and leave in the morning.
But I wasn’t really talking about those topics. I was referring to psychologist Esther Perel’s ideas of lust and intimacy. They’re two different things. And by “lust,” I mean “eros” or “desire.” Not necessarily sex, per se.
“Lust” is about mystery, trying to find out, trying to acquire something, trying to get at something, trying to lessen the distance between you and the person you want to acquire. You could use a similar definition in terms of what you wrote to Snowphoenix. It’s “sexual tension.” It’s the unknown. “Intimacy” is almost the opposite. It’s about knowledge, understanding, closeness, safety. “Lust” and “intimacy” can run parallel to each other; they don’t necessarily intersect. And she’s written about how too much intimacy can kill lust. She’s also talked to a lot of couples where one party has had an affair. And it wasn’t the intimacy the partner was missing. Often, the relationships were pretty good. They were missing lust or desire.
So that’s the question I was asking: How do you want what you already have? How do you “lust” for what you already have? And, by extension, if the relationship started out feeling a little transgressive (and that was part of the reason for the lust), over time that will dissipate. What do you do about that?
Hi Marcia,
“How do you “lust” for what you already have?”
Marcia, you’re getting very difficult, ha.
Are you talking lust for LOs or SOs?
Because if lust for LO runs out, simple, you get a new LO, ha. But if lust for an SO, ah that’s more difficult! How do you keep that spark alive? That’s the million dollar question… “Love” is for people who are valiant, courageous, people who are ready to lift up the lid to see what’s in the pot… that is, see what’s working and what is not in the relationship and take action accordingly. Willing to communicate and discuss new things, ready to re-invent love. I think the woman has to be elusive in a gamely way, keep an element of surprise, never reveal all of herself at once, but do it in small doses, keep that mysterious atmosphere by getting involved in interesting things; and never be an open book for SO to read. If the couple gets too close all the time, they feel
like choking, there needs to be space to separate at times . But also if too distant, the SO may take it as rejection. Darned, this is difficult. Re inventing yourself is the best I can come up with. Monogamy is getting more and more difficult as time goes by and moral values are being discarded; also there are more and more chicks easily available … too much competition! The fight is on.
Nisor,
“Are you talking lust for LOs or SOs?”
SOs, obviously. Most of us don’t have our LOs. Thus, we still lust for them.
“How do you keep that spark alive? That’s the million dollar question… “Love” is for people who are valiant, courageous, people who are ready to lift up the lid to see what’s in the pot… that is, see what’s working and what is not in the relationship and take action accordingly. Willing to communicate and discuss new things, ready to re-invent love.,,. Darned, this is difficult. Re inventing yourself is the best I can come up with.”
That sounds like a lot of work, tbh. I think most people just let all their secrets out (I know my LO who later became an SO did) and want to be completley known and not have to play any more games. Maybe games isn’t the right word, but keep working at it, like you’re still dating.
“Also there are more and more chicks easily available … too much competition! The fight is on.”
But who wants to fight if they are in a supposedly permanent relationship? If you are married, haven’t you already won? And, personally, if I haven’t won and there’s some doubt or some new, shiny chick who grabs his attention … there’s the door. I don’t mean that in a flippant way, but I’m not fighting over someone.
Sammy
“I believe that some personality types e.g. INFJs are driven to find/seek meaning even where there is no meaning. “
I think other types of personality could be driven to seek meanings where there is none, like myself — seemingly more of INFP. I remember I was searching even when I was very young, and a kind of obsessive. Some peers thought I was an “idiot” because I found “bones in egg”.
“Some people might feel limerence is meaningless, or pure escapism. I beg to differ. I believe limerence can be unhealthy at times. However, on the other hand, I have found my own LEs meaningful, but usually in totally unexpected ways.”
Welcome to board, finally! Ever since I got on LwL, I “advocated” that my LE had brought me onto several self-search and self-improvement quest — led by myself, not LO, one thing led to another. Without even knowing what limerence is, I was driven to find out why I felt the way I did — illogical, confused, painful and unstoppable! Of course, what I did discover was unexpected, and had the meaning behind what I did since childhood and puberty. Like you said, I found “patterns” of my limerence — the mostly “biwidering and painfully longing” up to the time of bumping into LwL.
“For me, I don’t think limerence was ever about sex, or romance, or securing the ideal relationship – although limerence initially appeared to be about all of those things. I think limerence for me ultimately became a journey of finding the meaning behind everything that’s happened in my life to date, even if I had to invent that meaning. It became a quest to find/see “patterns” in life. Patterns that exist in my own life and patterns that may occur in all human lives.”
For me, limerence was largely escapism coated by genomic instinctual drive unaware by myself and romantic quest condemned by my OCC. If ignorant of all my previous limerence, the latest one was definitely turned by me to “patterns” and meanings search, and I don’t think it will end here, because patterns could be found but meanings have to be created along the way of a purposeful living, there is simply NO universal ones.
“In other words, I have found a great deal of purpose in limerence, because for me it’s been a springboard to analysing love relationships between men and women.”
Through my own limerence and what I scanned in this forum, I feel less hopeful for conventional marriage, it just cannot be fulfilled and sustained. I never expected or estimated how rampant limerence could be particularly among existent committed relationship. If “moralities” are not lessened, people are and will be suffering, it’s going to be a lasting norm!
“It’s almost like masculinity has no meaning without femininity and man as a sex had no purpose without woman (and vice versa).”
Or dear, it’s called duality. Without one side of a coin, the other side does not exist or has no meaning. I have advocated both sides of limerence so obnoxiously to the point that my own unconscious struck me dumbfound just over a month ago, from which I still have not “recovered”; all I could see and feel is negative of my own limerence, stupidity, regrets and sadness. My meditation cannot bring me back to my mental state before Oct. 16th — I have waken up! Perhaps I was indulging beforehand in my own illusions, now everything happened in the past 6 years appears crispy clear, in logical and realistic sense…. Then, with some obtained peace, everything around looks gray, not black at least!
“I agree with Camille Paglia that heterosexual women are infinitely fascinating and basically the glory of creation (or evolution, if one prefers). A life without heterosexual women in it is a very dull life indeed, a life not worth living. “
A life without heterosexual and bisexual men is dull as well — “a Iife not worth living.”
“One must always forgive a heterosexual woman for being difficult.”
I still “condemn”, with equilibrium, my misfortune to be born by the mother, who, along with many societal factors, led me to where I was/am — the damage is not quantifiable! Luckily I had my father and Granny to balance out some of the detrimental effects.
“I’m not sure why modern liberal women are supposedly depressed. I don’t know enough about liberal women as a group, to be honest. However, I wonder if liberal women are unhappy because they actually have nothing left to rebel against?”
Based on your question here, I cannot be counted or considered as a modern liberal woman, because I have not rebelled enough openly. I still have so much taboos and fears inside me, even just to voice out my true mind in my reality. Thus LwL provides me a platform to speak frankly, which I appreciate deeply.
“So, yeah, maybe if modern liberal women (and modern liberal men) want to add a frisson to their lives, they need to go back to religion. At least, then, they’d have some interesting taboos to break and some forbidden fruit worth picking. When everything in a society is permissible, life itself becomes unrelentingly bland.”
Disagree with you here. Even without religions, there are still many biological, neurological, psychological factors in human behaviors that affect one’s wellbeing and present many challenges for humans to conquer. Society as a whole and individuals do not need go backwards adding back those taboos or forbidden fruits. Culture has partially replaced religions in the past century. Limerence has its strong biological and neurological components, as well asl the cultural ones.
“This is probably why progressivism is doomed to failure. Progressivism is doomed to failure because progressivism in the long run is quite boring – Sammy’s controversial opinion of the day. Human beings don’t like being bored.”
All desires, are “doomed” once obtained — Life swings like a pendulum backward and forward between pain and boredom.” I’m convinced by Schopenhauer but am still trying to make my own meanings, even stupid in outsiders eyes; in this regard, following Albert Camus may bring some small yet concrete fruition.
@Snowphoenix.
Some interesting thoughts, as always. You sound a little less joyous and enthusiastic than usual? I hope I haven’t inadvertently dampened your spirits? Honestly, high spirits in a woman are very attractive. Just a little daunting to people who are not automatically on that same wavelength. 😉
You’ll have to forgive me if I sometimes sound cranky with you. If I sound cranky with you, maybe that’s because I feel you’re arguing one side of the field a little too strongly, and I want to bring you back to centre – which isn’t my job, admittedly. 🙄
I have this weird thing in my personality where I always want to “balance out” the energy among a group of people. It’s not leadership. I don’t think I could ever be a good leader, because I have a hard time believing wholeheartedly in any ideology, and hence I wouldn’t be able to decide which ideals and values the group should actually follow! I don’t really know why I try to “balance out” the energy in a group. Perhaps it was the role I was assigned in my family of origin as the only boy/”odd one out”?
“I think other types of personality could be driven to seek meanings where there is none, like myself — seemingly more of INFP. I remember I was searching even when I was very young, and a kind of obsessive.”
I like people who look for meaning. However, I think us meaning-driven folk need to not take the search for meaning too seriously. I mean, if you look too hard for meaning, you might end up sending yourself mad while embarking on your very noble quest. And a mad meaning-maker isn’t very useful. On the other hand, if no one searched for meaning by identifying patterns in people and the world, then human culture wouldn’t exist. 😉
“Ever since I got on LwL, I “advocated” that my LE had brought me onto several self-search and self-improvement quest — led by myself, not LO, one thing led to another.”
I think limerence can sometimes lead to this huge, unexpected drive toward self-improvement. What I find sad is that this self-improvement is sometimes inspired by not feeling good enough in the first place. It seems that hurt and rejection/fear of rejection prompts the improvement, rather than more positive motivations.
“For me, limerence was largely escapism coated by genomic instinctual drive unaware by myself and romantic quest condemned by my OCC. If ignorant of all my previous limerence, the latest one was definitely turned by me to “patterns” and meanings search, and I don’t think it will end here, because patterns could be found but meanings have to be created along the way of a purposeful living, there is simply NO universal ones.”
No universal meanings? Well, that’s an interesting idea. Maybe I just compare myself too much to other people? Seeking meanings that aren’t universal is something I’d have a hard time doing or wanting to do. I guess i see my own search for meaning as part of a collective search for meaning. I feel like I’m performing a (mostly thankless) job on behalf of other people. I feel that private quests for meaning often lead to embarrassing dead ends.
Honestly, limerence does make a lot of sense to me as a pair-bonding mechanism. Basically, the limerent sees one person as utterly amazing and everybody else as lacklustre, and this temporary illusion prompts the limerent to invest crazy emotional resources in the LO. If the LO is also interested and investing, then successful pair-bonding is more than likely.
Limerence as a precursor to pair-bonding is not inherently a bad idea. Inherently, it may be a very good idea indeed. The two parties just have to be on the same page regarding intentions/feelings/goals, etc. Why two seemingly eligible people are so often NOT on the same page (and why they can’t effectively communicate this not-same-pageness) is a topic worthy of discussion. (No solutions, but lots of interesting theories I’m sure). 🤔
I think I’ve worked out the dynamic in my own family. My mother is a female who’s an “attractive extrovert”. My father is a male who’s “pathologically shy”. (Can’t talk about sex. Can’t talk about emotions. Can’t talk about anything interesting, really. But likes people and wants to be included in the group anyway, even owed a huge debt of gratitude).
I’ve seen it time and again – marriages between attractive extrovert women and pathologically shy men. These couples DO have chemistry in the early stages of their relationships. Maybe they even fall into mutual limerence with each other? Stranger things have happened. However, these couples really, really struggle with “emotional compatibility” once married.
The pathologically shy man can never “open up” and doesn’t know what “emotional compatibility” is. His wife is asking him for something he finds incomprehensible. The attractive extrovert female is doomed to spend her entire married life on the phone to her mother, complaining about her aloof husband. The mother/mother-in-law reluctantly sides with daughter).
The biggest complaint that Western women have about their husbands isn’t “the sex is bad” or “he doesn’t earn enough money”. The biggest complaint that Western women have about their husbands is: “He doesn’t talk to MEEEEEEEEEEEE…” 🤣
“I still “condemn”, with equilibrium, my misfortune to be born by the mother, who, along with many societal factors, led me to where I was/am — the damage is not quantifiable! Luckily I had my father and Granny to balance out some of the detrimental effects.”
I am very close to forgiving my mother for all and any wrongs. I’m coming to see things from her point of view, and why she complained about the things she complained about.
I realise that everything interesting in my personality I owe to my mother. If not for my mother, I wouldn’t be an interesting person. (Not that I am a particularly interesting person, once you strip away the last few traces of my mother). Nor would I have anything interesting to talk about. I feel my maternal grandmother is an even more interesting person than my mother. My father is not very interesting, but he had the good sense to marry a very interesting woman and thus inherit a very interesting mother-in-law. (Am being a little cheeky here? Okay. Maybe I’m being a little cheeky). 😁
“Even without religions, there are still many biological, neurological, psychological factors in human behaviors that affect one’s wellbeing and present many challenges for humans to conquer. Society as a whole and individuals do not need go backwards adding back those taboos or forbidden fruits. Culture has partially replaced religions in the past century. Limerence has its strong biological and neurological components, as well asl the cultural ones.”
I think religion can be valuable because it can be a sort of “departure point” for thinking about whatever it is you want to think about. For example, the writer Virginia Woolf said she wasn’t grateful to Christianity for itself. But she was grateful to Christianity because it gave her and her bohemian friends something to “fight against” in the modernist era.
Basically, it’s good for people to be grounded in tradition, or to have a solid grasp of tradition. Because if one is grounded in tradition, then at least one has some idea of what one is rejecting – assuming one wants to reject something. Religion/tradition can give meaning to people’s lives, even if that meaning is rejection of religion/tradition as irrelevant, unjust, etc, etc.
I don’t think culture can ever replace religion fully. I think what happens in society when religion crumbles is that culture also eventually crumbles, since culture is built on the foundation of religion. Culture is the beautiful edifice and religion is the solid base underground that people don’t see.
When culture starts to fail, nature rushes in to fill the void left by culture, and society falls apart too, to be replaced by stronger societies with more robust (i.e. still-traditional) cultures. But, you know, I could be wrong…
The strange thing about highly-advanced societies is that culture sooner or later becomes steeped in Romanticism. There’s a huge upwelling of Romanticism from somewhere. And where Romanticism flourishes, decadence is never far behind. Romanticism always leads to decadence.
The reason Romanticism leads to decadence is that human beings (both men and women alike) can rarely do anything constructive with “freedom” once they obtain “freedom”. Only a highly-disciplined person cannot be corrupted by freedom. Most people sadly need to be told what to do – otherwise they just waste their lives on the empty pursuit of increasingly empty pleasure. On the other hand, nobody wants to be told what to do.
Religion/tradition can heighten Eros (or limerence, if you prefer) because for some people, religion/tradition is the main “barrier” to reciprocity.
“All desires, are “doomed” once obtained — Life swings like a pendulum backward and forward between pain and boredom.” I’m convinced by Schopenhauer but am still trying to make my own meanings, even stupid in outsiders eyes; in this regard, following Albert Camus may bring some small yet concrete fruition.”
Pain and boredom doesn’t sound too promising, but I get what you’re trying to say. I’m convinced there is a place for joy in life. But maybe not joy at full-bolt intensity. Also, joy can sometimes come from advancing the joy of other people and not self. I guess (ethical) people with children more readily understand the “pay it forward” model of human happiness? 🤔
Sammy,
“Some interesting thoughts, as always. You sound a little less joyous and enthusiastic than usual? I hope I haven’t inadvertently dampened your spirits?”
I’ve been experiencing the post-limerence melancholy so badly that I simply lacked spirit, energy and interests to respond several messages, which I wanted to… Everything I did or thought appeared meaningless, a day felt like a week, a week felt like a month…. Then, the lack of active writing makes the spirit even lower, it’s a catching-22. I did practice piano, physically worked out, mediated, and worked, but I did all of them mechanically without much joy.
You did not, but my reality at work gradually dampened and nearly killed my spirit in the past 4-5 weeks (since Oct 16th morning when my Unconscious struck me). Everything seems to have come to slow death in my head, which I intellectually knew but truly felt in my heart clearly, which brought in deep sadness for all definitive losses.
I now see my past 6 year limerent illusions deadly clear, like Rainbowbrite summarized (did not have energy to respond her insightful post) but I have not get to her stage to feel some joy of freedom or could even consider LO as a friend, I’ve lost him — only bringing in numbness or negative emotions. (To me: loss of someone —— no longer occupying my mind. I’ve not lost my granny or father, although they’ve gone physically).
So without anything dramatic happened, I think I’m out of my limerence — no fantasies (repulsed by my previous ones), no expectations, no disappointments, no hopes, nothing much to say besides polite greetings when bump into LO…. I am at the stage of feeling sad, blue and void, despite I’ve started a “new life” focusing on whatever I’m doing.
“You’ll have to forgive me if I sometimes sound cranky with you. If I sound cranky with you, maybe that’s because I feel you’re arguing one side of the field a little too strongly, and I want to bring you back to centre – which isn’t my job, admittedly. “
There is nothing needs to be forgiven here. As I said many times before, your posts pose a lot of highly challenging and fascinating ideas, and I purposefully chose “opposing” side to respond — the essence of a debate ( I could even switch sides with you). I never wanted to be anyone’s echoing pet, particularly after learning about critical thinking in Western classrooms (unthinkable in my OCC). Again, there is no absolute right or wrong, or center in any issue, we’re 2 blind (wo)men touching the same elephant from different angles — we probably even circled the elephant several rounds, but still could not see its whole. So feel free to “crankly”spin my head over tail anytime, Bro!
“I have this weird thing in my personality where I always want to “balance out” the energy among a group of people. It’s not leadership. I don’t think I could ever be a good leader”
Maybe you want to be a mediator, emphasizing with people and hopefully bring them more together as a group, since in today’s world, particularly in a big city, everyone is highly individualistic, the sense of community is weak. However, even in a group, one should be allowed to fully shine his/her energy and personality, as long as it does not harm others. Otherwise, what is considered to respect others and oneself?
“I have a hard time believing wholeheartedly in any ideology, and hence I wouldn’t be able to decide which ideals and values the group should actually follow!”
The same here, nowadays I could not believe or follow any ideology, after peeling off layers of them to peek through. They all functioned at certain time under certain environment for people’s certain mental or spiritual needs, but ultimately, no ideology is better or worse. In the current melancholy stage, I see each of them is meaningless (to me). I meditate trying to “empty” or slow down my busy mind; afterwards, I get clear headed.
“I like people who look for meaning. However, I think us meaning-driven folk need to not take the search for meaning too seriously.”
I did not want to embark on this hard quest, but was somehow somberly driven, not sure by what since young. I was often melancholy since 13, maybe I genetically inherited some depression for my mother who claims that she has had low-grade depression all her life — you won’t believe how depressingly negative she’s habitually while not tempestuous.
“On the other hand, if no one searched for meaning by identifying patterns in people and the world, then human culture wouldn’t exist. “
There is NO universal meanings or purposes for all human beings, only each individual could create meanings in their own under the big umbrella of the culture they live in. Incidentally, I just watched a short video right before I saw your post and is quite agree with Sadhguru’s very non-Western view:
https://youtu.be/68OWKq-aEOI?si=jvcS47mQwglr6yO9 (It is against DrL’s goal of LwL)
It also echos Albeit Camus’ existential philosophy, who strongly advocates to create one’s own meanings as long as they make him/her going in life. I think I’ve made a huge mistake in my life in that I’ve searched meanings from outside, from others’ lives, instead of creating meanings in my tubulent life that is coherent to my authentic Self, which brings us to Jung’s individuation process again — find and embrace one’s authentic Self that includes all colors and hues of humanities. I don’t believe there are fundamental differences in human essences, which are carried out by seemingly different personalities.
“I think limerence can sometimes lead to this huge, unexpected drive toward self-improvement. What I find sad is that this self-improvement is sometimes inspired by not feeling good enough in the first place. It seems that hurt and rejection/fear of rejection prompts the improvement, rather than more positive motivations.”
It’s always sufferings (caused by ourselves, pains by uncontrollable factors) — the hurt or fear of rejection here, that serves as a fuse to instigate a journey of our self-improvement. If feeling good enough or comfortable, one becomes “secure” or lazy, why bother searching for meaning or anything new? For this unexpected “fruit”, the cliche “our adversity is our best teacher” stands tall.
“No universal meanings? Well, that’s an interesting idea. Maybe I just compare myself too much to other people?”
Again, absolutely NO universal meanings, minus basic survival. If one compares oneself to other people in any regards, one’s doomed to endless woes! It’s very surprising to hear that Sammy, sounding individualistic, knowledgeable and insightful about so many things in life, would compare him to anyone else. I’m a nobody, but still rarely compared myself to anyone existing in the whole world; that’s probably why I end up being alone a lot of time with little envy of anyone. I’m not afraid of being an “odd ball” but feel sad that I could not stand alone, together with some like-minded people. (Please watch the 12-minute video clip I just attached above, which is what I’ve been trying to practice.)
“Seeking meanings that aren’t universal is something I’d have a hard time doing or wanting to do. I guess i see my own search for meaning as part of a collective search for meaning.”
Sorry I have to be discouraging again: there is NO universal meanings, but I guess it’s hard to accept for people with religious faith. Collectively, many search for meanings and believe they exist outside themselves; however, they are really searching for meaning that is valid for their individual self, which differs from one to another. If you acknowledge we are all unique with various backgrounds and goals in life, then how could any meaning be universal?
“I feel like I’m performing a (mostly thankless) job on behalf of other people. I feel that private quests for meaning often lead to embarrassing dead ends.”
From a Stoic point of view, we can’t control other people’s mind and behavior. So if I were you, I’d do my best in my job regardless whether others are thankful or not. If not, that’s their problems which would affect their mental health, if yes, that’s a bonus of the work! To me, the meaning of this job is that I would get a gratification of achievement by doing my best with efforts.
“Why two seemingly eligible people are so often NOT on the same page (and why they can’t effectively communicate this not-same-pageness) is a topic worthy of discussion. (No solutions, but lots of interesting theories I’m sure).
Why NOT on the same page is an eternal universal mystery, neuroscience or mysticism can’t explain this. But religions, cultural taboos have inhibited people from effectively communicating a lot of human issues due to fear of embarrassment or impropriety, really “tragic” but I guess necessary. This world is so imperfect!
“I think I’ve worked out the dynamic in my own family. My mother is a female who’s an “attractive extrovert”. My father is a male who’s “pathologically shy”. “
In my family, the role is reversed. Mother is introvert but passively aggressively manipulated father. Father was attractive extrovert acting charming, decisive and was the “master” of the house on the surface.
“I am very close to forgiving my mother for all and any wrongs. I’m coming to see things from her point of view, and why she complained about the things she complained about.”
It’s not issue of forgiveness with my mother. It’s about the completely lack of mother-daughter bondage between us. I could intectually understand why she did what she did, but the huge emotional damaging impact remains in my system (Body Keep the Scores), and has darkened everything I have experienced.
“I realise that everything interesting in my personality I owe to my mother. If not for my mother, I wouldn’t be an interesting person.”
I would state the same sentence but change “mother” to “father; no one could be more boring, annoying or insecure than my mother, so pathetic! In my younger eyes my father was “magnificent” except not listening to me or validating my shades of emotions and budding mind. I could not understand why he had chose my mother who was so introvert and negative about the entire world! (Later made him to wear the green hat several times….).
Father was busy to show his “peacock tails” — his primary narc trait. In the last semester of my high school, I decided to behave extrovertly like my father for a change. So I acted out one month before I graduated. All my classmates and teachers almost had their jaw dropped, unable to understand how I could change over night! — Monkey see, monkey do! 🙉
“I think religion can be valuable because it can be a sort of “departure point” for thinking about whatever it is you want to think about. For example, the writer Virginia Woolf said she wasn’t grateful to Christianity for itself. But she was grateful to Christianity because it gave her and her bohemian friends something to “fight against” in the modernist era.”
A good point! Religion still plays a cohesive role in bringing some people together, who try to practice and stick to its ethics in theory (few authentically does in reality), I just do not want to, and cannot be one of the masses.
“Religion/tradition can give meaning to people’s lives, even if that meaning is rejection of religion/tradition as irrelevant, unjust, etc, etc.”
Rejecting religion/tradition as a meaning of life is a waste of time, in my opinion. I’ll respect anyone’s faith, just do not pull me into there. Also religion, particularly Christianity, has evolved a lot, there is no universal definite of “God” — could an old man with white beard, a deity in one’s mind, a sprit in one’s soul, or an imagination… I’ve audited a course in religious study, just to find out what and why…
“I don’t think culture can ever replace religion fully. I think what happens in society when religion crumbles is that culture also eventually crumbles, since culture is built on the foundation of religion. Culture is the beautiful edifice and religion is the solid base underground that people don’t see.”
Are you kidding me that “culture is built on the foundation of religion”? What was it 3 thousand years before Christianity? Wild woods for Olympian gods and Greek run around? Sorry, I cannot agree with you on this AT ALL! The cultural is a bigger umbrella that includes religion, ethics, philosophy, science, humanity, lifestyles, etc….
“When culture starts to fail, nature rushes in to fill the void left by culture, and society falls apart too, to be replaced by stronger societies with more robust (i.e. still-traditional) cultures. But, you know, I could be wrong…”
Based on my understanding, culture cannot fall unless the earth suddenly explores, but religions could phase out as its population has been reducing in Europe and the US. In the East, China has no religions (Buddhism is more of a philosophy not grouped like Christianity) but treats its communism like a religion. Religious practice in other Asian cultures are more individual and family based, implemented in their daily life.
“And where Romanticism flourishes, decadence is never far behind. Romanticism always leads to decadence.”
Romanticism leads to unrealistic expectations or behaviors (both responsible and irresponsible), NOT always decadence. Decadence is driven by greed, vanity, boredom, and insecurity. Romantics put emotions, pair-bonding, prior to everything else.
“The reason Romanticism leads to decadence is that human beings (both men and women alike) can rarely do anything constructive with “freedom” once they obtain “freedom”. “
Are you equating romanticism with freedom here? How do they become synonymous? What kind of freedom here you’re referring? Mental, or physical, or financial freedom? Romanticism exists in all layers of the society, carried out in small or big acts in living room, bedroom, every corner of streets, what has it got to do with freedom?
“Only a highly-disciplined person cannot be corrupted by freedom. Most people sadly need to be told what to do – otherwise they just waste their lives on the empty pursuit of increasingly empty pleasure. On the other hand, nobody wants to be told what to do. “
So in your opinion, freedom will definitely corrupts? I assume you’re talking about financial freedom here. Then look at those CEOs of small or giant tech companies! Would they be corrupted if they stop their current adventuous or philanthropy goals?
“Religion/tradition can heighten Eros (or limerence, if you prefer) because for some people, religion/tradition is the main “barrier” to reciprocity.”
That’s the detrimental effect of religion/tradition, which has made so many people suffering limerence pains! But I would not equate Eros to limerence. (Still has not got a chance to respond your Eros post).
“Pain and boredom doesn’t sound too promising, but I get what you’re trying to say. “
Not just because I’m depressed now, but I have already experienced both sufferings and boredom and its swing back and forth; Schopenhauer is absolutely brilliant and insightful in this, he points this universal truth of life so hopefully people would not to have unrealistic expectations or illusions about life. I said before that I needed to have desires to pursue, but not to get them; otherwise, I’d get bored in three days. Right now, I have no desire for anything new except to get out of this melancholy.
“I’m convinced there is a place for joy in life. But maybe not joy at full-bolt intensity. Also, joy can sometimes come from advancing the joy of other people and not self.”
Without that pair-bonding need fulfilled at some degree, there would be no soulful joy experienced, unless one is totally devoted to their god. One can get gratification by “advancing the joy of others people and to self”, it would take an authentic altruist, like Mother Theresa or Dalai Lama. If I can bring some sincere joy to people around me, I’ll consider it as my contribution to the society. So first I have to make myself joyful, regardless situations, which my is full responsibility, not anyone else’s job.
Hey Snowphoenix,
skimmed your post (sorry, lack of time), I’m sorry you feel bad. Hang in there, it‘s supposed to get better! It‘s still a step forward in life.
All the best!
@Mila,
Thank you for caring, writing pains out always makes me feel better, but I had to pull myself out of the cocoon to do it, to break that catch-22 cycle.
I’ve scanned all your lately posts, watched your progress, and felt your struggle. To come out LE is just tough process. Some try with will and I could only passively let things run their course — including not to talk about it too much here so to distance it further; otherwise, my Unconscious fights me back in opposite and always wins. I need to stay in neutral stage, not to demonize or glorify anything or anyone.
One thing I want to say is that finally I see Dr L’s claim — why during LE, our mind was in an altered stage. My current logical mind cannot “understand” how on earth I had or created so many illusions during the thick of LE, which gave me so many reveries and mood comforts — the mind’s imagination ability is a kind of miracle, but one needs to use it in productive matters. The realization of LE’s ridiculous mindset berates me now and set me in deep melancholy state, even losing physical energy — Mind controls body and is in a winning stage nowadays, despite all my disciplined meditation, workout, health diet, etc…
When those past illusions are clearly realized, the mind feels void and loses zests for other things, which far, far less motivating or colorful than limerence; they look sooooo gray, like Marcia describes.
The best to your work-in-progress!
I’m not at all regretting my biggest mind-altered limerence #7, which came on an even lower point of my life, made my moods soar in the sky for at least 4 years, and brought me to a lifetime self-improvement journey that I’m steadily treading on…
I’m actually grateful in this respect.
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for responding. Even when you’re feeling a bit down, you still come up with great ideas!!. Not everybody can say that… 😆
The mood swings associated with limerence are brutal, aren’t they? Hope you feel a little more cheerful again soon… 👍
I don’t want to debate with you, but speaking in purely emotional terms I don’t agree with you about “no universal meaning”. I feel (or I need/I choose to believe) that there is universal meaning, or at least commonly-agreed-upon reality. If there’s no commonly-agreed-upon reality, there humans wouldn’t be able to communicate with each other. And I DO like communicating with people, even if I don’t make a lot of sense at times! 😁
I suppose, at the end of the day, when all is said and done, I’m probably some kind of “humanist”. I believe in the goodness of most/some people and I believe life can be improved if people are willing to cooperate/pool wisdom for the common good, which is sort of what happens on LwL on a miniature scale. When I help other people, the person I’m helping most is myself i.e. emotionally.
Duality does appeal to me on aesthetic grounds. I like the idea of balancing masculine and feminine energies to create a feeling of unity in a work of art, etc. In the Western society, the masculine has traditionally been privileged over the feminine – that privileging of the male has been good for all sorts of reasons, and has been bad for some reasons too. In the East, culture pays lip service to duality, but real-life women are still seen as second-rate and subservient.
Camille Paglia associates men with the Apollonian and women with the Dionysian. Fascinatingly, what we have happening in the West is enormous numbers of women choosing to identify with the Apollonian. This is not a bad thing per se i.e. women getting higher education, and participating in the workforce. However, I think women feel a little alienated from their own essential natures when they stray too far into territory that comes more naturally to males.
Women still want to be women, in other words, despite all their “masculine accomplishments”. We also have a bit of a problem with girls excelling at school/work and boys using female success as an excuse to drop out of school/work. Girls achieving great things is great. But we need to find ways to keep the girls’ brothers interested in achievement too. Males are starting to reject Western society as irrelevant, perhaps because they feel like they can’t “get ahead” anymore. Some males unfairly blame females for male failure.
When I talk about freedom and being corrupted by freedom, I think I’m primarily talking about sexual freedom, or the freedom to pair-bond with whomever one chooses. Sexual freedom can corrupt people. Also, sexual freedom still doesn’t mean you end up with the partner of your choice. If Person A doesn’t love Person B, there’s nothing Person B can do about Person A’s lack of interest/ desire. If Person A is an empowered individual, Person B is an empowered individual too. Empowered individuals have the right to say no, and Person A would be a hypocrite to reject Person B’s rejection. 🤔
Romanticism, I feel, is the religion of the young. It’s easy (and fun) to be a Romantic when you’re under 40. It’s very hard to embrace Romantic ideals after 40 – at least that’s what I’ve found. Lord Byron, the greatest of all Romantic figures, after all died at 36 (?). We can’t look to him to tell us what becomes of the Romantic Man/Romantic Woman after 40. 🤔
I’ve decided that of the seven deadly sins, the only sin more pleasurable than the sin of lust is the sin of sloth. In the bitter battle for control over Sammy’s mind/heart, I believe “sloth” won. 🤣
On the other hand, here’s a fun quote from biographer Laurence Leamer: “Of the seven deadly sins, jealousy is the only one that gives no pleasure to the sinner.” (I’m currently reading a book about American writer Truman Capote, and his glittering social circle).
I agree that the drive to pair-bond is an incredibly strong drive in human beings. However, I also feel that pair-bonding isn’t really in the cards for some of us e.g. yours truly. I believe that it’s essential to long-term psychological well-being for one to make peace with not getting what one most wants in life.
My younger sister had a birthday the other day, and celebrated this birthday at an Indian restaurant. I sat at the “old people table” and entertained (or allowed myself to be entertained) by the old people. My sister paid me a few compliments when we got home. She said she loved having me as a brother because:
(1) I’ve always been kind to her. (She was overweight in primary school, and I used to stick up for her. To me, being in the good graces of my sister was more important than being in the good graces of my male peers).
(2) Sense of humour. Specifically, my dry sense of humour. Everything my sister does and says amuses me, and kind of inspires an ongoing witty commentary. I guess, on some level, I don’t really see my sister as fully human – and I mean that in the nicest possible way. I see her as this beautiful china doll come to life.
(3) Steadfastness. (This is just a faintly Biblical-sounding word that means loyal. I hope it means loyal. I don’t know what else it could possibly mean?)
Moral of the story: even if one doesn’t have a “great love” in one’s love, one can still matter and matter a lot to other people. 😉
“Are you kidding me that “culture is built on the foundation of religion”? What was it 3 thousand years before Christianity? Wild woods for Olympian gods and Greek run around? Sorry, I cannot agree with you on this AT ALL! The cultural is a bigger umbrella that includes religion, ethics, philosophy, science, humanity, lifestyles, etc….”
I identify with and worship the great god Pan myself. In fact, I see myself as a latter-day embodiment of the great god Pan. Of course, I had to give up on the wine thing. (Didn’t agree with my delicate tummy). And the song thing is kind of touch-and-go. Also, I never got around to the women bit of the “wine, women, and song” equation.
I’m not entirely sure what implying here? Hanging out in the woods sounds perfectly normal to me! Are you saying that other people don’t hang out in the woods, as a matter of course, drinking wine and writing song? Goodness gracious, darling, you haven’t LIVED until you’ve hung out in the woods, drinking wine and writing song!! No wonder you’re unhappy with your lot. And suggesting the exalted denizens of Mount Olympus aren’t cultured! The very nerve! 🤣🤣🤣
Snow, Sammy hi,
Since you guys love to delve deep in philosophical conversations, I came across one that is very popular on these days , specifically Canada and Latin- America, and other countries as I understood, it’s : SIGNO SEMIO COM. “Wittgenstein ‘s Language games”, by Nicolas Xanthos
It’s the science of Language and Semiotics, maybe you are acquainted with it already?
Wittegenstein addresses the question of the logical relation between language and the world. His later philosophy, the language games taking shape in early 1930s produced : “Philosophical Investigations “ in 1944 and “On Certainty” 1951.
Semiotic practices- the socially shared ways of using signs of signifying and of representing.
“In one sense, the language game is a hypothesis that we’re making about the basis of individuals semiotic behavior, assuming that this behavior is not random, but a function of specific rules.”
Therefore, everything exists by a set of rules visible or invisible, or else it will disintegrate, crumble???
I saw a therapist using it on patients to help them communicate and observe the “signs” when in pursue of a relationship. (It was not in English. )
Read it is very interesting .
@Sammy,
Thank you for the cheering message, and it always takes me some time to think over your provoking ideas…
“The mood swings associated with limerence are brutal, aren’t they? Hope you feel a little more cheerful again soon… “
My mood has not gotten hit so low in the past, not solely due to my ending limerence, but the realistic situation, which will change my life again fundamentally, making me deeply blue….
“I don’t want to debate with you, but speaking in purely emotional terms I don’t agree with you about “no universal meaning”. “
I don’t have enough energy to debate on anything nowadays. I totally agree that most people have purposes and meanings in their individual life, but there is NOT a universal one, because from a psychological point of view, there is NO universal shared definitions for what’s commonly-good for everyone; what you deem happiness or fulfillment may differ vastly from another person, yes or no? What works for me might bring a disaster to another, right or wrong?
Peace might be one BIG commonly-agreed-upon goal for the majority, yet just look at what’s going on in the world today! At individual level, many claim to want peace, but also find it may come with boredom. Many desire novel activities, but they may bring internal turmoils. And who can say we’re born for these or those specific meanings? Does Universe really care?
“I feel (or I need/I choose to believe) that there is universal meaning, or at least commonly-agreed-upon reality. If there’s no commonly-agreed-upon reality, there humans wouldn’t be able to communicate with each other.”
I understand where you’re from, which was where I used to stand, but then I found out I was pressured to live for some vague meanings that meant little to my own life but some abstract ideology or herd utopian goals. It’s such a waste of time and energy in a massive scale!
Later, influenced by existantialism, in which the whole human race is just a Sisyphus pushing the boulder upwards in eternity, I recognized I definitely need to get off that slope; but what is my individual “boulder” with a clear on the horizon?
Regarding culture and personality, there is almost none shared definition in what makes one’s life fulfilling. After so many precessional and personal detours, In my small life, I find some creativities, no matter how trivial or stupid to other judging eyes, could satisfy me from minutes to hours, or hours to days…. The key of such satisfaction is pursuit itself, not some unreachable goals — practicing piano 24 hours a day would never make me a professional pianist; nonetheless, my fingers could become more flexible, flying on a computer keyboard.
“And I DO like communicating with people.”
I do, too! Particularly with people who have different “hues” in world views from me, so my curiosity could be satisfied. Sometimes I found people who echoed a lot of my inner voice both consoling and boring, while the opposite provoking or motivating. Despite vast differences, there is always something new I could learn from without becoming a pet of anyone or anything.
“I suppose, at the end of the day, when all is said and done, I’m probably some kind of “humanist”. I believe in the goodness of most/some people and I believe life can be improved if people are willing to cooperate/pool wisdom for the common good, which is sort of what happens on LwL on a miniature scale. When I help other people, the person I’m helping most is myself i.e. emotionally.”
At the end of the day, I’m a more of a Buddhistic humanist, believing in human desires and suffering in most people — everyone in LwL, myself included. Our common good here is to suffer LESS from limerence, which some want to get rid of, some want to hold onto, and some are helpless, not knowing what to do with it would benefit themselves. I’ve fell in all three categories at different times.
“Duality does appeal to me on aesthetic grounds. I like the idea of balancing masculine and feminine energies to create a feeling of unity in a work of art, etc.”
Masculine and feminine energies should be and could be harmoniously balanced and united in each human being — a living art.
“In the East, culture pays lip service to duality, but real-life women are still seen as second-rate and subservient.”
Yes, in All Eastern cultures. But at individual and family levels, there is few well balanced examples.
“Camille Paglia associates men with the Apollonian and women with the Dionysian. “
Such association is somewhat sexist. If I remember correctly, in Greek Metrology, each God and Goddess has his or her own various powers, no less inferior than any others, they are equal, representing different aspects of human life.
Diana is not less wiser or logical than Apollo, and I haven’t heard that women, but all artists, are associated with Dionysian. Nietzsche associated himself more with Dionysian, and he “hated” women.
“Fascinatingly, what we have happening in the West is enormous numbers of women choosing to identify with the Apollonian. This is not a bad thing per se i.e. women getting higher education, and participating in the workforce. “
In the traditional societies, women are not given opportunity to even learn about their possible potentials, so how could they choose or even dare to think about Apollonian abilities or skills? If at birth they’re told they could be a Diana or Apollo(aside from physical strength), as well as Hera or Dionysian or any other Olympian deity, there would be no modern femininity movement.
“However, I think women feel a little alienated from their own essential natures when they stray too far into territory that comes more naturally to males.”
What’s are women’s “own essential natures”? What is the natural territory of males and females? I was brought up like a neutral gender by my FOO and COO, so not buying such a division.
“Women still want to be women, in other words, despite all their “masculine accomplishments”.”natures”
Howl do you define “women” here? Why can’t they be women after their“masculine accomplishments”? Is this your theory or that of the whole West?
“We also have a bit of a problem with girls excelling at school/work and boys using female success as an excuse to drop out of school/work. Girls achieving great things is great. But we need to find ways to keep the girls’ brothers interested in achievement too. Males are starting to reject Western society as irrelevant, perhaps because they feel like they can’t “get ahead” anymore. Some males unfairly blame females for male failure.”
That’s the problem of western boys’ ego, which has been taught to believe or takes for granted that they have to “get ahead” of girls. Such the laziness, resentment or rejection shows their limited understandings in gender issues or wisdom of how to conduct a more productive and happier life. With the equal opportunities, girls have proven they’re not inferior to boys in mind and academic fields. Bravos!
“Sexual freedom can corrupt people. Also, sexual freedom still doesn’t mean you end up with the partner of your choice.”
That’s true. But soon or later, sexual freedom without any emotional involvement would bore anyone, men or women. Millions of people have tried it throughout history, but ended up unfulfilled, disappointed, and even miserable in their whole being. That’s a universal truth. Most of them would eventually give up actualizing such a meaningless “sexual freedom”. I had and still have such a freedom with means and without traditional morality bondage, but have no interests at all in utilizing it.
“If Person A doesn’t love Person B, there’s nothing Person B can do about Person A’s lack of interest/ desire.”
Sadly true. Emotions can’t be fortified or cultivated, especially Eros.
“If Person A is an empowered individual, Person B is an empowered individual too. Empowered individuals have the right to say no, and Person A would be a hypocrite to reject Person B’s rejection. “
I do not understand what you’re talking about here, especially the last sentence; why A would be a hypocrite?
“Romanticism, I feel, is the religion of the young. It’s easy (and fun) to be a Romantic when you’re under 40. It’s very hard to embrace Romantic ideals after 40 – at least that’s what I’ve found. “
I disagree with you on this. I’ve seen many over 40 are very romantic, especially Western men — my ex-father-in-law is one (happily in his 3rd marriage now). We chatted about limerence, and he self claimed that he’s a life-time limerent. Not sure about women, though; haven’t seen any in my circle.
“Lord Byron, the greatest of all Romantic figures, after all died at 36 (?). We can’t look to him to tell us what becomes of the Romantic Man/Romantic Woman after 40. “
Come on, you really know how to pick up an extreme example! Do romantics have to be worldly famous poets or a big Don Juan of the society?
“I’ve decided that of the seven deadly sins, the only sin more pleasurable than the sin of lust is the sin of sloth. In the bitter battle for control over Sammy’s mind/heart, I believe “sloth” won. “
I wish I’m able to commit such “sloth sin”; I have been forever restless in body and mind, unless I’m deeply depressed in body and mind.
“Of the seven deadly sins, jealousy is the only one that gives no pleasure to the sinner.”
I thought I was spared such a “sin” for life, but alas, this last limerence made me falling into its grip, I absolutely hate it — making me want to punch LO’s handsome face! I still haven’t forgiven his blunt lies! If he had some guts to admit it, at least, I’d have an ounce of respect left! I know, I know, it’s my own reactions, not his actions, that made me enraged and I have to get rid of this suffering on my own!
“However, I also feel that pair-bonding isn’t really in the cards for some of us e.g. yours truly. I believe that it’s essential to long-term psychological well-being for one to make peace with not getting what one most wants in life.”
Yes, making such a peace is the biggest struggle I am in right now. I’ve had more LEs than you and a failed marriage, and really believe now that “pair-boning, especially emotional one, isn’t really in the cards” for me, either. I guess we could forever stand alone, “together” in this regard….
Your sister is Really LUCKY to have you as a big brother! Now I resent my mother more, who could have given me three younger siblings — the most thing I desired in the world as an abused, lonely kid! If not bidding with my granny, she’d get rid of me as well; then I might have be born into a better mommy, who knows!
“Moral of the story: even if one doesn’t have a “great love” in one’s love, one can still matter and matter a lot to other people. “
I totally agree with this. When I was in a more peaceful mental state without any“love”, I was a true buddhist, but still a smiling “sigh”…
“I identify with and worship the great god Pan myself. In fact, I see myself as a latter-day embodiment of the great god Pan. Of course, I had to give up on the wine thing. (Didn’t agree with my delicate tummy). And the song thing is kind of touch-and-go. Also, I never got around to the women bit of the “wine, women, and song” equation.”
Good for you to be a modern Pan while getting away from the drunkenness and Dionysian women!
“I’m not entirely sure what implying here? Hanging out in the woods sounds perfectly normal to me! Are you saying that other people don’t hang out in the woods, as a matter of course, drinking wine and writing song?” Goodness gracious, darling, you haven’t LIVED until you’ve hung out in the woods, drinking wine and writing song!!”
Based on your definition, I really haven’t LIVED! I am unable to relax truly without a glass of wine in my empty stomach.
“No wonder you’re unhappy with your lot. And suggesting the exalted denizens of Mount Olympus aren’t cultured! The very nerve…”
Now you’re pulling my legs! 😅 It was you who implied that the culture did not exist during three thousand years of ancient civilization before Christianity!
You can be so hilarious! 😄
Limerence? Or more? Fascinating! https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-18/marija-pericic-new-novel-exquisite-corpse-carl-tanzler/102995556
OMG the things people will do….That has a very Southern Gothic quality to it. 😛
Dr L,
Your blog of November 18, 2023:
“How to get over an office crush”
No comments allowed????
Dr L no longer trusts us to stay on topic! …move along folks to the coffeehouse.
Maybe we need to open up a wine bar too.
A little cheese to go with that wine too..
Forget the wine. Is there any Vodka? 🙂
Indeed MJ, for me nothing beats a quality glass of wine, good selection of cheeses with some warm fresh french bread and good conversation about the meaning of life.
Industrial strength for Marcia. You go Girl..
🍸🍸😉
@IMHO,
Yes, how could I forget the warm fresh french bread? That would be delightful. All while we discuss the perplexities of limerence and the meaning of life.. 😉
Hi MJ,
Wine, cheese, bread, ha, pretty soon we’ll want some nice juicy Texas steak to go with it ! And some Vodka for Marcia .
In Buenos Aires ,Argentina , they have these “Wine and cheese “
places where people go to after a night out clubbing etc. to continue sharing and talking until dawn.
I think we will be needing breakfast after that because talking about limerence never ends.
Have a very pleasant, relaxed week. Hugs.
I saw his comment the last time about polyamory etc. discussions on one of the posts….I guess we don’t “behave”! lol
This subject was discussed at great length in the Limerence for a Co-Worker blog. Perhaps it could get picked up again there. Or the Coffeehouse is fine too. Which the Good Doctor probably would prefer.
I can say after reading this most recent blog, I completely drove my LE into limbo. All because of indecision. Some days are easier now, but some can be rough emotionally. All depends on my fixation levels. Which still roller coaster, but not like they were.
Hi Nisor. Yes, I deactivated comments, not specifically because of you lot going off topic – love you guys, even though you are incorrigible 😉 – but because I occasionally write these sorts of “entry” posts for people who haven’t yet discovered limerence but are searching around for help on topics that are closely related.
Those posts are heavily linked to the rest of the site to introduce the idea of limerence, and my worry is that a comment thread filled with jargon and in-the-know comments would be off-putting.
Plus, the coffeehouse is always open!
Good thing it is. Sometimes I like going there for my late night/early morning fix.
Thank you so much for the reply. It makes a lot of sense and we understand. Keep up the good work. And sorry again for being incorrigible children… the site is so exciting, we can’t control ourselves!
Have a great fruitful week.
Nisor
I attended my first Catholic Mass this morning.
Oh Adam, that’s great news!!! I’m so happy for you!!! It’s good to get involved with a congregation, you get to meet new folks and if the folks are friendly you get to share with them often. Hope you had a good sermon and a word of wisdom.
I attend church every Wednesday and every Sunday, and we’re like family now. We support one another and do events together. They’re my family here, because i am one continent away from home. We have folks from different parts of the world besides the locals, and we fellowship after the services with coffee and cake, sandwiches etc. I realized I needed to congregate because no man is an island and was feeling too lonely, SO comes along with me also, though he was reluctant at the beginning. Now he loves it! Thanks God.
You be strong 💪🏽 and happy. Many hugs for you and family.
Hi HMHO,
You’re right! now that you mentioned it, we should move our conversations to Coffee House. We keep on forgetting and keep changing the subject of the Blog . Dr. L maybe got tired of trying to tell us the same thing without us paying attention . Sorry Dr. L!!!
Perhaps we need one big coffeehouse to meet up in and let the conversations go wherever. Funneling the discussions of the blogs in one place. That way, there wouldn’t have to be a commitment rule of staying on topic in each blog.
MJ,
“That way, there wouldn’t have to be a commitment rule of staying on topic in each blog.”
Rules and regulations
No place in Limerence Nation!
Staying on topic is boring! 😉
Adam, that is so cool! How was it?
Nisor, Miss Lovisa
It was puzzling. I wan’t sure what to do and I didn’t want to offend. So I mostly followed cues from the congregation.
At one point I didn’t know what to do and an older gentlemen asked me and not to leave and I told him I was just unfamiliar with the ceremonies and didnt want to offend anyone. He told me “whatever you do you praise the Lord”. He made me feel welcome. I dont where this will steer me. But I’m okay to try new things.
@Adam
From one Catholic to another, Welcome. I hope you find what you are looking for. I can’t begin to tell you how much I have leaned on my faith to get me through this LE..
Great, great news..
😀😄
Adam, every congregation is full of people who are just trying their best. In my church there is a popular saying, “Church isn’t a retirement community for the righteous, it’s a hospital for sinners.” I think it’s easy to think that other people know what they’re doing and I am inadequate, but it’s not true. We are all just doing our best. I want to share a scripture with you.
John 3:17.
Here is how I might summarize that verse…God doesn’t want to condemn you, he wants to lift you to a higher level.
Welcome back to Christianity, Brother! You were missed.
Adam, while in church, don’t pay so much attention to what people do, pay attention to the soothing, healing word of God. One go there mainly for the message and the inspiration it may bring to you . ❤️💪🏽
An old retired Priest I had become friends with years ago had a funny quote he used to like to incorporate into his homilies. He would say, “Be what you is. Because if you ain’t what you is, then you is what you ain’t.”
Nisor
Interestingly enough the sermon was kind of a hint at me. It was the parable about the master that sent his servants off with talents to turn a profit. And the one that he gave one talent to buried it in the ground because he was afraid to take a chance on loosing it. So he did nothing. Which is just as bad as doing something evil. I remember reading that one myself when I went to church as a young man. I guess my folks ingraining reading the Bible daily stays in your head.
I don’t know where this is taking me, but it was a nice experience. Maybe I will go back next Sunday. Maybe I will try another church. And maybe I can’t be saved. But it will be a journey either way.
Adam hi,
Sometimes we receive help and comfort from the Word, other times we share the word with others and they receive comfort; it becomes a vehicle, a channel to help edify others that might be in some kind of need. You keep in your journey, it was a giant step ! May the Lord give you wisdom and discernment, and guide you to the green pastures and still waters where you’ll find some rest!
Stay strong 💪🏽. Hugs
@Adam
Just so you know, that Gospel reading spoke to me as well. I always considered myself the useless servant who buried his talent. I had a smile on my face, when those words were spoken Sunday. Thinking of myself being thrown out into the darkness, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.
That’s almost like how I feel going into work sometimes..
MJ, Adam, good morning,
That parable of the talents spoke to you both, because the Word is a mirror where you get reflected. But you took it the negative way only, there’s a way out and is called correction, applying the word. Which means, if in the parable the servant didn’t use his talent as small as it was required of him to do, you don’t imitate him, for now you know what could happen; instead you use your talent as small as it is and do something with it. What talent do you have? Are you making use of it or are you hiding it? Everyone has a talent for helping themselves and others, don’t have to be a big talent, it could simply be a “ good word of comfort” to someone, making a cup of coffee for someone, showing kindness, etc, little things that makes the life of the other person worthwhile living, it’s called the “ministry of helps.” You can also serve in the choir, the coffee shop at church, as an usher, giving a glass of water to a thirsty one, serving in the community ,all the way to preaching the word, sharing the word, lifting up other’s spirits. There’s so many talents that go wasted because people don’t know they have them or know how to use them. Besides it helps keep your eyes away from yourself and your problems so much. You care for others as well as for yourself , you expand your sphere of influence and receive the gratitude and reward of being of service and being appreciated by others. It’s good for the soul. Somehow, misery evaporates when sharing in that environment of brotherhood. Everyone is needed, everyone have that something special to give to others. Let’s share it, and don’t hide it, you got talent!!! Let’s be victorious!
A good day to both. Hugs.
IMHO,
still waiting for that insight of yours relating to your business trip;)!
Hi Mila ! To manage your expectations Im not sure it’s that interesting or insightful, but since you keenly asked here goes.
I suggested a catch-up with a work colleague, on visiting his city on my business trip. I class him as a friend as known him for quite a while, but not worked with or seen f2f for a few years. I thought great opportunity that I happen to be in his city/ office which is rare as our cities are a long way apart.
Anyway he asked for my schedule which I shared and I made a suggestion, but he never responded. Bit rude I think and bit sad, but busy lives we lead.
Then a few days later, unrelated, I post a comment on a broad news platform at work which he ‘liked’ with an emoji. He never does/ done that before.
It just got me thinking of his behaviors, is he busy and felt a bit guilty he didn’t reply or meet me. Or maybe he has/had a crush on me and decided best to go LC/NC.
To give some context he sent me a message out of nowhere a few months ago after seeing a photo of me with mutual friends. His message said he missed working with me.
So my reflection is since finding myself in limerence that it’s not unique to me. and that maybe people have a crush on you for years and you could even be their LO and you really got no clue. ‘Could’ being the key word, as I don’t flatter myself and I genuinely really hope he and none of my friends suffer with limerence.
Hi IMHO,
I think it’s insightful, a small revelation!
I don’t know if your friend is limerent or not, but we limerents tend to be quite fixated on our own egos, hurts, feelings, and forget that other people might struggle too. We shouldn’t be angry or dismiss them immediately.
I have this with my LO, I seem to expect him to behave loving, caring and mature and am oversensitive (excellent post from Rainbowbrite!) but I actually think he‘s limerent too in his own way and might act or react in strange ways to protect himself.
Thanks Mila, good to get your view on this. It would be easier if we knew what was going on in others minds and hearts, but we have to accept we may never really know. It’s just being more mindful that we are all different, going through different life phases/issues and in particular different personality types. You probably have very different personality type to your LO. You cannot change your LO or will him to show you more affection/compassion. Although it seems you had some recent success actually in this regard, but you probably know you can’t call him out on that again or else it’s demanding, dare I say controlling. He is your friend and needs to be authentic with you and not react the way he thinks you want him too. Of course barriers adds another reason for any coolness or poor responsiveness from an LO too. So yes your LO may be struggling too.
Rainbowbrites post is excellent and hope I get to that same place. I have decided not to be the initiator of contact with my LO/friend. Let’s see if he does.
IMHO,
I‘m also envious of Rainbowbrites state of mind , and I read Dr Ls blog post again, especially the signs that one is over LE to a friend, and I‘m not there yet…
I felt angry with myself after my outburst recently where I asked my LO why it is that he never can say something nice or supportive, afterwards I felt demanding and intrusive.
But yesterday I felt a bit rewarded because he wrote that he tells his colleague now and then that they are doing great work (and they love it), because „somebody taught me that“. So my outburst, if for dubious reasons from my side, was in the end kind of useful for him.
Good result all round Mila ! Maybe the thing you were angry with yourself was the emotional outburst and not the intent of the message you wanted to portray. We can certainly learn from each other to be a better person. I had a colleague who always sent best wishes/ good luck to the team before big meetings or events which was so appreciated and I have tried to emulate her behaviors ever since. She has made me a better person. I’m sure you are having a similar effect.
IMHO,
I’m feeling less limerent at the moment and can therefore see my friend in a „normal light“ and have to say, my advice/complaint was sound;) he could definitely do with more charm and consideration for other peoples‘ feelings:)
Yey ! Good to hear the ”less limerent stories” today. Much needed hope for me as I have had major set-back after some good progress. my own fault. Embarrassed to share that receiving an unexpected kissing heart emoji from LO on one of my messages has been so triggering.
IHMO ,
A kissing heart e moji ? It’s very telling! I’d be triggered too! Enjoy the high!
A great weekend to you.
Thanks Nisor for your message,
I am trying to convince myself the kissing emoji is a goodnight and also a goodbye message from my LO. I am the instigator and I’m going to pull right back from that role.
Good weekend to you too.
IMHO,
Kissing Emojis are also on the count in my LE;)
since most of our communication these days happens by texting.
I think it‘s one of the highest emotional signs I‘ll ever get from LO and we both use it consciously I guess and withhold it consciously…
Which is kind of immature, maybe.
I‘m still not feeling that limerent at the moment, but I try not to let my hopes go up too much..
Mila, yes messaging is so meaningful and becomes almost strategic to get the right tone and walk that fine line ! One single word addition or omission and choice of adding a x or more, choice of emoji. I think we should all just stop emojis altogether !
And even with lots of thought our messages may be perceived completely different by the recipient!!
Anyway, my LO has a thing coming up that I should send a best wishes message for ( you are familiar with this scenario) but this mean I’m the initiator yet again ! sigh. I’m thinking to just send a two word message or an emoji only. Needs a thoughtful vibe and not give off I think about you more than I should vibe. Sigh
Glad you are less limerent 😃 (appropriate emoji)
IMHO,
:)😌😍😂
Emojis are actually especially for this case, that one writes something that could be misunderstood in meaning if you cannot hear a tone of voice, so you add the appropriate tone of voice by emoji, but it‘s difficult.
Me for example, I don’t like it when someone only responds with an Emoji on a text message, for me it means „conversation closed“, but somebody else might not mean it that way…
With LO I try to text as „normal“ as possible. If you weren’t limerent, you would still send a best wishes- message, no? Just to be polite and nice.
So you don’t have to see yourself as initiator. It would be more weird and telling if you wouldn’t write something.
Just do it without a question in it that needs answering, and maybe without kissing Emojis 😉
IMHO,
I agree with Mila, I think it’s ok to send a good wishes message to LO this time. It sounds polite, be brief. Probably you’ll get a thank you reply, you don’t have to answer back. Leave it there.
Be strong.
Thank you Mila and Nisor, very helpful and straightforward advice you both gave, which I will follow.
Our conversation here helps me from over thinking all this crazy stuff ! Thanks,
Imho😍
(I’m changing it from IMHO as it’s friendlier and quicker to type, ha ha)
Hi guys, I have been hanging out here for quite awhile and it has helped. I’ve been suffering through your garden variety limerence hellscape. The LO in question, I’ll call him Frank, is a gay male, I am a happily married heterosexual female. I am pretty self-confident and generally not a big people person. I have a small set of close friends and a wide set of work friends, but I am very OK with not being everyone’s favorite. I am much more interested in being able to be “me,” speak my mind, etc., than in being liked. All of which is to say, I am typically NOT looking for new friends, nor am I typically open to new close friends. I am somewhat guarded and defensive and more importantly have felt that my relationship needs were sufficiently met.
I met Frank during the covid-19 lockdown when he was one of several people assisting in a class I was teaching (the class had moved online, and Frank had been hired by my work just before the shutdown so I had never met him in person). Frank seemed to just love everything about me–I was the smartest coolest person he ever met, an amazing teacher, unbelievably smart, etc. And not in a smarmy way, just in a “wow you are great!” way (or so I perceived it). Somehow he blew through all of my standard defenses and I began accepting him as a close friend.
Once in-person life started up, we met IRL and became even closer. It was a year of blissful friendship in which I have never felt so seen and just completely approved of and appreciated. Most people don’t get my jokes, he got them all. He noticed and praised the parts of myself I most value. I started to have some level of obsession with him, which his behavior definitely contributed to. He made comments like he knew from day 1 we would be “a couple,” it’s “so lucky I’m not a guy” or he’d be in real trouble, and told me repeatedly that before he had come out as gay in his mid-twenties he had a serious girlfriend. I don’t want to get graphic, but the vibe was flirty and led to a lot of “what if…?” on my part.
Sometime in here is when, as I now recognize, the limerence kicked in. I had never had an LE before and this insane intensity of emotion seemed to me like it must mean something. Something big! Life changing! Etc! All of this confused emotion made me think I MUST have a romantic crush. I felt no lustful or sexual attraction (though I kind of assumed I must, to have such intense feels). What I felt was some idealized Platonic ideal of friendship, like I just wanted to sit by him and maybe hold hands. Basically just vacuum up everything about him and be near, do every damn thing together. Be BFFs until we are dead and buried.
I disclosed that I thought I had a crush on him. We talked it through, and I concluded that my feelings were “just” some kind of intense friendship obsession. I had no interest in breaking up my own marriage or his partnership, but I also had never felt such rapid and intense connection to someone. My reading to try and discover what the hell was wrong with me convinced me I was suffering from limerence. It felt obsessive, including intrusive thoughts, a desire to hear from him often, etc. I want to make clear that he was completely reciprocal throughout much of this, in the sense that he would text many times per day, arrange his work schedule to match mine, etc. In addition, the friendship was progressing in very “normal” ways–he and his partner would come to parties at my house, they vacationed with me and my husband and daughter, and so on.
However as time went on, as we entered the second year of our friendship, he seemed to start withdrawing a bit. Less frequent texts, less effort to hang out together, more “oh gosh I am so busy and overwhelmed!” Because I was dealing with what I believe counts as a mental illness–my obsessive focus on my friendship with Frank being the main barometer of my mood–I became overly dramatic in how I responded to him. I was insecure about the friendship like I was in a stupid teen romance–do I like him more than he likes me? Is he mad at me? I was sometimes a jerk over text–“I can’t believe you were at work at the same time as me and didn’t even come by my office!” “You never have time to hang out with me but you have time to get a beer with Bob!”
This went on for much of the next year. In what became a predictable cycle, we would fight (always about “our friendship”), I would get fed up and say mean things, turn off my shared location, block him on text, then after a cooling off period one of us would reach out. Each time, I became more convinced that I’d lost my mind and needed to end this. But I would sink back into the warm bath of friendship every damn time.
In mid-October of this year I discovered some fundamental two-facedness in his behavior (he was still texting with someone he told me he cut off ties with). Some scales fell from my eyes and I started to really consider the idea that my trust and love (yes, I loved him) were misplaced. He is a very popular guy, one of those people who if their name comes up, everyone goes “Oh my god, Frank is awesome!” I am never good buddies with those types of people, I think they are faking something even though I do see their appeal. In Frank’s case, I think that if I had gotten to know him in person rather than online, I never would have been so susceptible to his friendship.
In any case, I felt like this was a big “ah-ha” moment, this guy is a people pleaser who will say anything to the person in front of him to get their love and approval. I told him (via text), “Dude, enough. If I can’t trust you we can’t be close. You are a dishonest people pleaser. I hope one day you are mature enough to be honest with yourself and others. From now on I consider you a pleasant acquaintance, not a bestie.”
His response was to immediately cut off ALL communication. Remember that we have been through many cycles of fight–make up–fight. That, and probably my own craziness, led me to keep trying to get a response from him. He kept not replying on personal text which really riled me up. I next sent messages on our work communication app. His only reply was, “leave me alone, i no longer want to interact with you.” No other response, no explanation. At this point, DUH, I needed to stop messaging him. But I didn’t stop. I assumed this was just another round in the cycle. I said some angry things. I was also legitimately needing responses regarding some work issues. Finally I said, “if you won’t sit down with me to figure out how to manage our shared worklife, we may need to ask HR to mediate.”
Within 3 hours, he went to HR to accuse me of stalking and harassment. He shared ALL of our private texts, and said god only knows what about me. HR opened an investigation, but only interviewed me and Frank. Eventually HR called me in to say that I was being fired for stalking and retaliation. They don’t have to share WHY they believe this, this is their conclusion.
I am in a union and the union is fighting my termination. I am still hopeful that I will get my job back, because the texting (and I admit many of my texts were over the top) was a pattern that had been going on for more than a year without Frank ever objecting or trying to end the friendship.
More importantly, I am trying to keep moving on the emotional part and work through accepting that this shit needs to be over. IS over. At this point we are 40 days into no contact, and that, combined with my fury over what he has done to me professionally, is helping ease my obsession with this idiot. But I still have whispers in my head of “when this is all cleared up and we are BFFs again.” It’s been obvious for at least a year that no matter how “right” things have felt with Frank, there is something very toxic to me (and perhaps to him) in our relationship. I want to be done and never think about this guy again. But I am also plagued by 1. how could he do this? we were soulmates, bffs, meant to be. 2. what kind of fool am I to get into this mess, and can I ever again trust my feelings about a new friend?
THANK YOU for reading! I know there is a lot to criticize here. Believe me, I am trying to do better and am suffering plenty.
I should also confess that I am in almost more distress over the loss of “Frank” (in quotes because I totally accept it’s the idea, not the person, that I am obsessed with) as I am over this dreadful attack on my career. I am a PhD-level professional and the effects on my career are potentially huge. But the weeping is triggered by “ohhhh my friennnnnd,” not by “omg, what will I DO?!”
Hi sad_hr_target_clown,
First off I just wanna say I’m really sorry for all the pain you’re going through now, and all the pain you’ve surely dealt with over the past year or so – the recent events are the most dramatic of course, but I can only imagine that the past year has been filled with plenty of anxiety and pain as well – I’m also very familiar with the feelings that come along with repeated cycles of an LO pulling away and then getting close again, and I know it’s painful every damn time.
And now you’re experiencing a version of the doomsday scenario that I think a lot of us here fear. Hopefully in your case your marriage is still ok – I didn’t see any mention in your posts about how your SO is taking this and how much they know about it, but hopefully that part is ok. But to permanently lose your LO and possibly lose your job at the same time would be a huge blow and I can only imagine how it must feel.
I guess my advice would be to focus on saving your career at this point, since the relationship with LO is clearly over, plus as some part of your recognizes, it was an unhealthy relationship that some day you’ll actually be glad you escaped from. But it sounds like you do actually love your career and wouldn’t want to lose it… so I’ll say from my experience watching a few of these HR situations unfold over the years, that my best advice would be:
1) Don’t attempt any contact with LO at all. He’s likely been instructed to notify HR if you try to contact him in any way, and it sounds like he’ll do it. So anytime the temptation to contact him arises, as I’m sure it will, imagine HR reading the texts or seeing the call logs. Remember, the first rule about getting out of a hole is to stop digging deeper, and any contact with him now is just digging a deeper hole.
2) Be completely open and transparent with your union reps. One of the worst things that could happen is that they could try to represent you based on a partial version of the whole story, and then HR presents some evidence that the union had no idea about and it totally wrecks their defense of you. As embarrassing as it may be, you gotta tell your union reps everything from the outset.
3) Do whatever your union reps tell you to do. They know how to navigate this sort of thing; you don’t, even at your best, which you aren’t at right now. Resist any temptations to shrug off their advice and do things your own way. Remember we’re all a bunch of idiots while under the influence of limerence, and if it’s possible to entrust the decision-making to professionals who can make plot the best course rationally, then I’d turn the decision making over to them.
4) Take good care of yourself. This has to be one of the hardest times in your life. Get a therapist if you don’t have one already. Lean on your SO if possible. Lean on a trusted friend if possible. Do some healthy and enjoyable things with your time. Avoid destructive coping mechanisms like excess drinking or drugs.
I’m rooting for you to get through this as well as possible under the circumstances, and hopefully this can be a learning experience and bump in the road rather than a major catastrophe.
Hi sad_hr_target_clown, I am glad you’re here. Welcome to our club. You provided a lot of good information that we can go through together if you’d like.
First things first… please leave him alone. I understand that giving him space is hard, but please don’t contact him. Come to LwL and talk to us instead.
I’ll try to write more later. My eighteen-year-old is reading over my shoulder so I’m going to stop commenting.
You will get through this. (Oh, now my husband read over my shoulder. I’m sitting between them in the cab of a truck.). We will talk later. Best wishes!
Oh Lovisa, thank you so much for replying! Just getting a response makes me feel like crying…but then again, EVERYTHING does, lately! I also have an 18-year-old. I have no truck :(.
OK, I hear you. Leave. Him. Alone. Do you mean I should leave him alone???
Again, thank you and I am excited to talk to you–and any other kind LwL savants–soon!
Holy Cow, you are hilarious! You have me laughing out loud. I’m just peaking in to LwL between routines. I will try to leave you a longer response when everyone is in bed.
I think you got it…
Leave
Him
Alone.
But you are not alone. You have us. I think you’ll like it here.
Seriously, that was funny! Thanks for the laugh.
Your story reminds me of the one I read about some lawyer being disbarred over his limerence for a LO client. Anyone know where that is? It is insane what limerence will drive people to do, to the point of jeopardizing their careers. Any yet, that matters LESS than the loss of LO. Even if we are disenchanted with them.
I don’t have any advice, but Lovisa is right. You gotta leave the guy alone. He dobbed you in to HR, he is not a friend and a real danger to your career right now. Not to mention your marriage and family.
I have been thinking about you, sad_hr_target_clown. I feel like you are in a tough spot right now. Let’s talk about the most important things first.
I assume that you love your family and you don’t want to hurt anyone. As you strategize an action plan, please keep them at the front of your thoughts.
We need to think of some ways to distract you while you are not working. Your body is used to a schedule and it will feel different for a while. Tell me how you plan to spend your time while you are waiting to (hopefully) get your job back. I hope you like to exercise. I think physical activity would really help with mood regulation.
How can you stop yourself when you are tempted to reach out to your LO?
Please read Sammy’s comment below. He provided the perspective of a gay male LO to a straight female. I think it will help you understand what might be happening in your situation.
I understand that you were receiving a lot of reciprocation from your LO and so his desire to pull away is confusing. I suspect he didn’t experience your relationship the same way that you did. I suspect he enjoyed it, it felt easy and fun, but then you became…wait for it…it’s bad, sit down…needy. Yikes! I think his behavior changed in response to your behavior. Ugh! I know that is hard to hear, but it is my best guess. Then I think that when he pulled away, you became clingy. I’m sorry, but that is my best guess. Your reaction makes sense, but it isn’t helpful to you or him. Of course, I am just a stranger on the internet. I hope to help you through this, but I don’t know what I’m doing.
Have you looked into Dr L’s deprogramming methods? Here is his resource page just in case you haven’t found it yet.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/resources/
You will get through this.
Girl. GIRL.
Yes on exercise. It has kept me sane (almost). It makes me feel I have power over something. Anything. I like TRX!
I hear you on me becoming needy. Definitely, and probably made more jarring to Frank because he idolized me as a “perfect” example of what a person in our shared field of work should be. And also as a very cool “idgaf” sort of person. Both of which…OK, fine. TRUE. 🙂
How to allocate my time: mostly, still working because my job is very computer-y. But admittedly, also way too much attention devoted to “why? how could he?” etc. The whole thing is just embarrassing and I am constantly saying to myself “shut up! move on!”
How to not reach out? Mostly fear of consequences.
But girl. I feel so hard done by. The timing of his going to HR after I had given the first real sign of rejection. The betrayal of sharing 2 years of text messages with HR. In my field, EVERYONE knows that HR is a bunch of maniacs that will chew you up just in case you maybe are a problem. There is no innocent excuse for going to HR. Hence my feeling that he was deeply frightened/existentially threatened by SOMETHING I did.
I definitely agree with your “I changed” reasoning. I did. But what hurts most is, we were already on a glide path to de-friending. I was getting less invested, I certainly believe he was too. What I experienced was an abrupt, completely disproportionate, betrayal. Again, his rapid weaponization of everything I had ever said to him…reads to me as FEAR. Or…PSYCHOPATH.
You are a complete angel to talk me through this. Please forgive any venting and know I deeply appreciate you!!!
I say “my job.” I am in a field that people do for love not because there are widgets to count. So the stuff I care about doing, I can do. I just won’t GET PAID if I don’t get my titled job back. If that makes sense? Academia, in a nutshell.
I think you are in crisis right now. I would be freaking out if I were in your position, too. And can we just chuckle for a minute at the irony that you are more distressed by the loss of LO than by the potential loss of your job. I’m sorry, but that is classic limerence. Limerence makes us forget our priorities.
You have some good perspective. I can see that you’ve been self-reflecting. I hope you’ll take this experience as a personal growth opportunity.
I understand the desire to label Frank/LO as a psychopath. I caution you against it. Thinking of him as different isn’t fair to him and it might cause you to justify treating him differently than you would treat a “normal” person. Many limerents villainize their LOs in an attempt to lessen the magnetic pull. You might be doing that and it’s okay. But I feel like it will be more effective if the qualities you attribute to him are based in fact like maybe he has an unpleasant aroma or you don’t like how he combs his hair. I don’t know. My LO2 tells some jokes that I don’t care for so I tried focusing on those stupid jokes when I was coming off my limerence. It didn’t work for me because I was still thinking about him. I ended up transferring my limerence because I was so desperate to rid myself of intrusive thoughts. I think I am the only person in our community who used transference successfully. It is so scandalous that most limerents won’t even consider it. Transference worked well for me because I didn’t daydream about my new LO so I don’t get intrusive thoughts about him, whew!
Today is a new day. Feel free to vent or talk about anything you like here in the comments section. As long as you don’t reach out to LO, we will call it a success!
Hi Lovisa,
I transferred too and was conscious of it, considered it a good thing. It was good in a way, because LO2 was a more decent and caring person than LO1, and also because he moved away (Nr1 didn’t), we are still friends and there will always be a little space in our hearts for each other.
But it wasn’t a way out of limerence, I just changed one LO for the other and still suffered.
I then transferred to my current LO, and maybe this LE will be the one where I manage to get rid of the whole mess of limerence.
So it gradually got better with each transference, but it would still be better, faster and healthier to find a direct way out, I think.
Otherwise one could keep transferring and suffering for his/her whole life.
Mila, I didn’t know you used transference, too. Thank you for sharing your story. I hope you get through this last LE quickly. I also hope your running is going well, wink.
I don’t recommend transference, but it is what worked for me. I am still friends with my LOs, but I don’t have limerent symptoms for either of them. Whew!
Lovisa,
I can’t say that I actively transferred, it happened but it wasn’t a bad thing altogether. With each LE I learned more about limerence. Maybe this time I know enough to overcome it.
Running, hm🙈I ran two times and then got a bad cold, after that I had an extremely busy time and now I‘m kind of scared to start again because it‘s icy cold here.. bad excuses I know;)
Mila, excuses excuses. Run again. As long as your shoes have grip, winter running is awesome! The cold feels sooo good. Try it. Come on, Mila. You know you want to do it.
Ready…set…go!
Sad hr target clown,
„I said, “if you won’t sit down with me to figure out how to manage our shared worklife, we may need to ask HR to mediate“
Maybe try to put all your own feelings aside and imagine all from the view of your friend.
While we all behave a bit crazy and obsessive due to limerence, we expect LO to be a model of maturity and empathy. We forget that they are also human, have their own flawed perceptions and issues, and most importantly, cannot look into your head.
I think he genuinely felt threatened. He maybe couldn’t understand what was going on with you that you were insulting him (dishonest people pleaser etc) out of a friendship, or threatening him with HR (you were the first to wave HR in front of him, remember).
Maybe he flattered and wooed you not because he was dishonest but because he really meant it and he was feeling safe in knowing that you knew he was gay.
And maybe he has his own issues with feeling threatened easily, or has bad experiences, who knows.
I‘m not saying that he did well or didn’t act confusing or inappropriate, I cannot judge this and I absolutely feel for you.
I just want you to consider that he misinterpreted you or doesn’t understand really and is scared. You yourself know how severe or not severe you meant your accusations by text, he might have taken them in a very serious way.
Is there a way of talking to him and trying to salvage the situation so that you both could solve it and go together to your boss or HR?
I feel that your job is much more important than this LE. Focus on saving your job now, look at it from a distance and do what seems necessary to save your job. Everything else can wait.
Yes, those are some great points, Mila. Very well said. I only disagree about contacting LO. I think sad_hr_target_clown should respect LO’s wishes and not contact him. I could be wrong.
No, maybe you are right.
In this case I didn’t think at all of her LOs perspective, I just thought about the best way to get her job back which would be of course easier if she had the support of her supposed „victim“.
@sad_hr_target_clown.
Hi there! Thank you for sharing your story. You must be very upset right now as I’ve noticed a near-identical post to this one on Reddit. Such a small world, isn’t it, the world of limerence? But, all jokes aside, I’m (apparently) a gay man who had been on the receiving end of an obsessive crush from a straight female. So maybe I can provide a tiny bit of insight into how this Frank character might feel?
First up, relationships between gay men and straight women can be very tricky to manage long-term, despite initial ease of communication. So don’t beat yourself up over any confusion you’ve felt or may still be feeling. The reason relationships between gay men and straight women are tricky is that gay men and straight women have a super-hard time maintaining appropriate emotional boundaries with each other, even if there’s no sexual attraction on the part of the male.
Secondly, as a gay man, I have a playful-yet-also-serious question to ask you, as a woman. Here goes: what on earth is the appeal of a gay man to a woman, a woman who presumably has so many other (better/superior) options in the form of straight men? Honestly, as gay man, I just don’t get it. I don’t know why some straight women place an “inflated value” on gay men. Is it some trait or collection of traits the gay man has? Is it looks? Is it personality? Is it the lure of the unattainable i.e. wanting someone/something that’s always just out of reach?
The girl who had an obsessive crush on me I knew in high school. She developed “the Glimmer” for me I believe after a single conversation on a bus on the way to Biology camp. We were both sixteen. I had no romantic feelings for this girl at any point. She never “glimmered” for me. However, I did really like her in a platonic way and I had indeed noticed her among our peers because she was (a) highly sociable, (b) had loads of energy, and (c) always made an effort to stand out.
Fun but possibly irrelevant information: when I talked to the girl that day on the bus, I had actually just finished reading “How to Win Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie, and I thought the girl would be an ideal audience for my newfound social skills. Little did I know my social skills were already much more polished than I thought – polished enough to impress a straight girl. Polished enugh to make a straight girl think I was chatting her up – and doing it well! 🙄 I grew up with sisters, so I’ve never experienced nerves talking to the opposite sex. I think the girl also found my looks agreeable, and limerence on her part ensued.
Everything about my interaction with this young lady was fine and dandy until one day she started to show signs of being emotionally dependent on my actions. (Is that crystallisation?). Her infatuation had progressed (without my knowledge and with no conscious input from me) to some “point of no return”. My friendliness and/or lack of friendliness, in other words, seemed to determine her mood. She was starting to experience visible mood swings because of me.
I’ll be completely honest with you – so please don’t take what I say the wrong way.
I hated, hated, hated being this girl’s LO. I hated her emotional responses being dependent on my action/inaction. I hated having the (unwanted) power to determine her mood for the day. I hated the way she stared at me with squinty, lovesick eyes, as if she expected me to stand on my head or perform magic tricks. I hated the fact all her friends (male and female alike) also watched me like hawks, trying to make sense of my every move, because the girl herself couldn’t read me.
So, yeah, nothing against the girl herself and no hard feelings to this day. (Her misguided affection actually made me quite popular among the boys who used to bully me. I received a significant bump in social status because of this girl – not that I was looking for a bump in social status of that precise nature). But the limerence itself felt a bit yucky – just the sheer intensity of it all, and the lack of communication about what either party was hoping to receive from the other.
The girl obviously wanted to start a relationship with me. That’s what limerence is all about, right? I did not desire a relationship with the girl, and also (in my own mind, anyway) lacked the ability to give her what she was looking for. I also did not enjoy being idealised, because I felt the girl (and other people around the girl) did not see me for who I really am. I felt as if I’d been cast as a character in a play, and no one bothered to ask me whether or not I wanted that particular part. 😉
But I don’t blame the girl for anything that happened and/or did not happen between us. I was young and naive. She was young and naive. I didn’t understand the role hormones apparently play in infatuation. I thought, at that point, romantic love was just a game with no real consequences. I was also torn at the time between two different males I liked, and couldn’t decide who I liked more, and didn’t want to discuss the matter with peers, as I felt ashamed. (Christian high school in the 90s. Same-sex desire strictly beyond the pale). 😜
Hi Sammy, I am a straight woman who also loves to be friends with gay men. I think I can answer your question.
“…what on earth is the appeal of a gay man to a woman…”
It’s because you can both be your vulnerable, authentic self. There is nothing better than authenticity and, for some reason, there is a lot of authenticity between a woman and a gay man. I love it! My former phlebotomist was gay. I loved getting my blood drawn because I got to visit him. He is awesome! He is funny and kind. I feel completely accepted when I’m with him and there is no sexual tension. He even told me that I’m “a beautiful woman” and he gave me a hug and it just felt sincere. If it had been a woman saying that, she would have projected “I hate you” vibes. If it were a straight man, he would have projected, “I want you” vibes. With a gay man, it was pure acceptance. It felt soooooooo goooooooood to be 100% accepted. Me! He accepted me! One time, I asked my husband if I could take our phlebotomist to lunch and my husband said, “The gay one? Sure! Why?” At the time, my 15-year-old son was exploring his sexuality and he said he was pansexual. I just wanted someone to talk to about it and the phlebotomist was happy to talk to me, but our time was so limited when I saw him at appointments. Anyway, I didn’t get a chance to take him to lunch, but it’s pretty cool when your husband is supportive of a friendship with another man. Don’t get me wrong, I am allowed to have male friends, but I think my husband liked the situation with our phlebotomist better than some of my other friendships with men.
Anyway, I can see how our new friend became limerent for her gay friend.
Thank you so much for sharing your perspective! My first instinct after I read her story was, “I bet she changed after she became limerent and the friendship felt more like a responsibility to her LO and less like a casual friendship.” It sounds like that is what happened when you were the LO.
Hi Sammy–
I really appreciate you stepping forward with your personal experience! Obviously I have zero insight as to what it is like to be a gay dude! I am FEELING a bit misunderstood by your response, but jesus help me, I KNOW I can’t trust myself on this topic. So here is some of my response and please please be tolerant if I come across as offensive. That is not at all my wish.
Regarding your question, “Secondly, as a gay man, I have a playful-yet-also-serious question to ask you, as a woman. Here goes: what on earth is the appeal of a gay man to a woman” I personally would say: absolutely nothing. The “gay bff” thing is not a thing that interests me, and I am plenty weird and interesting on my own without any need for an “accessory,” which I believe is one reason some girls like to have a “GBFF” or “gusband.”
In my case, I could give a fuck about gay, not gay, except that it probably lowered my defenses. If a straight dude had pursued me like Frank did, and slathered me with warm fuzzies like he did, I would immediately have been like “ummm, no, we ain’t gonna do the thing. BYE.” But the assumption that his interest was non-sexual was very validating. He is smart and so am I. If you compliment my looks, LOL OK TY. If you zoom in and compliment my brain…*faints.*
My biggest “wait wait wait” in regard to your message is, I did NOT start this. Frank pursued me, cultivated me, sought me out. It was only after a year of this that I became limerent. Let’s stipulate that my SUBSEQUENT behavior may have parallels with your HS victimization as a straight girl’s LO. But let’s also accept sad_clown’s belief that the relationship was very much a two-way street up until “gee, imma go see HR” occurred.
Again, I KNOW I AM CRAZY and so there are probably many red flags I am color blind to. But in addition to feeling victimized by my own cray, I do also feel victimized by Frank.
Did YOU ever tell that HS girl that you used to date women and that your girlfriend X was the best sex of your life? Did you have many conversations with her about her crush, and say “we are best friends, I’m so sorry you are sad”?
I have never ever struggled with mental health and so I am used to trusting myself. This whole kerfuffle has me going WTF. Am I nuts? Have I always been nuts?
But objectively I know that I am only very recently, very locally, nuts.
Here is my crazy interpretation which I would love gay dude pov on: Frank is actually bisexual-ish but predominantly homosexual. There really was flirting from him, but my apparent “hmmmm” response made him go “oh, shit!” and realize he does not want to get into a mess. Somehow this translates into me being “dangerous” to him. And activates a crazy response on HIS part of going to HR.
OK, flame me.
@sad_hr_target_clown.
“OK, flame me.”
Okay, well, um, I’m not going to flame you as I have no interest in flaming you. I don’t flame people in general. That’s not my style. More to the point, I’m pretty sure that flaming people isn’t compatible with the comments policy here at LwL. We’re a very civilised bunch of posters, which is nice. (A tad cheeky perhaps, but we try to keep the lid on that). 😉
I feel that there’s a lot of anxious emotion in your post – not anger exactly, but a fair bit of tension. You sound very worked up. And that’s completely understandable from the point of view that your job seems to be on the line. So let’s both just remain as calm as possible and talk about the situation as if were we two strangers chatting over a nice cup of coffee. Or tea, if you prefer. Do you drink tea? How do you like it? Are two lumps enough? 😜
I don’t have any personal emotional investment in your situation – can you see that? Therefore, I don’t have any reason to be upset with you. But I get it – conventionally speaking, strong emotion can be contagious. When one person in a group feels a bit on edge, then that on-edge feeling can spread to other people in the vicinity. I’m a bit of an anomaly in terms of my personality and character – I don’t usually feel emotional when other people feel emotional, although I have very deep and sincere emotions. 🙂
I’m mostly interested in your situation because I’ve read so many accounts of men and women struggling with limerence and also the odd female (not necessarily lesbian) crushing hard on another female. The gay man-straight woman dynamic just doesn’t crop up that often, so it’s interesting to talk about. Really, I’m trying to gleam a bit of insight into myself…
From what you’ve written, however, it sounds like the situation with Frank developed primarily because of who Frank is as an individual, and his behavioural quirks, and the unique dynamic that you two established. That’s fair enough. It sounds like Frank’s sexuality only played a minor role in your limerence for him – it prompted you to let down your guard early, as you say.
Again, I’m not mad at you at all. I’m not judging you. I don’t have anything nasty to say to you or about you. (Are you breathing? Do I need to remind you to breathe? Let’s stop and take a moment to breathe together). 😉
In truth, I don’t think anyone truly understands the mystery of why one person is attracted to another person. But this situation with you and Frank sounds heartbreaking. You have my sympathy. You also have my empathy. I feel the most unfortunate thing is how this case of limerence has played out the way it has – publicly. It’s a shame that the matter couldn’t have been settled amiably and in private between you and Frank.
“I am FEELING a bit misunderstood by your response, but jesus help me, I KNOW I can’t trust myself on this topic. ”
All I was trying to convey in my response was that everything between me and this young lady in high school was sweet and pleasant and beautiful. I never felt victimised by her at any point. Nor do I believe that she victimised me in any way.
At one specific point in time, however, I feel the young lady was in danger of “getting in too deep” (emotionally-speaking) regarding her desire for me. She was falling in love with me, in other words, and I wasn’t quite ready for that scenario, as I wasn’t in love with her in return. (I probably felt something akin to puppy love for her now and again, but the moments proved fleeting).
The girl appeared to be developing signs of limerence for me, although I did not know formally what limerence was. (I don’t think she knew what limerence was either). When the girl developed signs of limerence for me, I knew instinctively that I had to back off because she couldn’t voluntarily control her feelings of love for me. I had a responsibility to shut down whatever was going on inside of her – if I didn’t reciprocate the feelings. 🤔
I didn’t do a perfect job of shutting down the girl’s limerence for me. However, this is what I did do – I was always a gentleman toward the girl. I never embarrassed her/called her out in public. I honoured any commitments I had already made to her and made sure she never lost face in front of friends. It is a great honour to be loved by a beautiful woman. A male should never give a female a hard time just because she has a bit of a soft spot for him. 🙂
Long story short: when this girl started to develop more serious feelings of attraction for me, the “dance of energies” between us changed in a way that was noticeable. The mood just wasn’t as light-hearted and silly and goofy as it once was. I was uncomfortable with the change in energy. I sensed the girl wanted something from me, although to her credit she was never pushy. She waited for me to tell her what I wanted from her.
If I were a little older and a little wiser, I might have realised that the young woman desired me. Or, perhaps, she wanted me to desire her – which is pretty much amounts to the same thing as her desiring me. From my perspective, there’s absolutely nothing inherently wrong with desire. Desire is fine. Desire is human. Desire is natural. But desire also needs to be handled with the upmost degree of tact and compassion. 🙂
@sad_hr_target_clown.
“I can’t say if you, as a gay guy, experience automatic objectification from other gay guys.”
I have been in venues crawling with gay men and haven’t been objectified by a single person in the building. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. But it’s something that happens to other people, apparently, and not to me. I truly am “nobody’s type”. When I visit the demi-monde, the very fringes of polite society, I just sit around and talk to the old folk.
(Sorry. Couldn’t resist a joke at my own expense!) 😁
Hey everyone and especially sad_hr_target_clown.
Just wanted to say hello and welcome. Really enjoying reading this post. So I don’t have anything to add really. Other than I’m Union also and hopeful you will get your job back. That was low down how Dude threw you under the Bus to HR like that. I feel your disappointment but I’m rooting for you. Hopefully you have a good case. I think he did feel threatened though.
Fingers crossed you come away with a victory.. 🤞🏻
So, as much as Lovisa is all “oh yes, I do specifically think gay dudes are special,” and I am saying, “gay guys, whatevs” the thing we are converging on is the safety and seen-ness of interacting with a MALE who does not have a hidden (in the sense of “is that a pistol in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?”) agenda underlying whatever kindness and compliments he gives you. I can’t say if you, as a gay guy, experience automatic objectification from other gay guys. I can tell you for sure as a straight woman, the objectification is a constant in interactions with straight men. Not that I am a world beating hottie. AT ALL. But just…that’s the first thing in straight male-female dynamics. We can get past it, I do have excellent straight male friends, but I know that their brain STARTED at “will she or won’t she? would I even want to if she would?” So to have a boy (boys are different and fun!) be a sweetheart and NOT worry about there being subtext…that is lovely.
Well certainly the “safety” of a person not sexually compatible is easy to say you don’t mind them having opposite sex friends. There is no danger unless they find themselves finding out they are bisexual in the company of your SO.
Heterosexual women and homosexual men, seems like a safe relationship for her SO. But that still doesn’t mean an EA can’t happen between the two. I’ve read older accounts here of emotional needs trumping sexual compatibility between to cross sexual preference people. One woman that use to post here was heterosexual and became limerent for another woman. She said she never identified as any other than heterosexual.
In my opinion, it comes down to trust. If you trust your SO with opposite sex relationships their sexual preference is irrelevant. And I don’t think it is impossible to have opposite sex relationships. You just have to be honest with yourself as to why you want to pursue this friendship. LO isn’t the first friendship I knew better than to pursue. And I didn’t to start. I kept my head down, did my job, was friendly with her but professional but absolutely taken by surprise by the limerence. Hell my first FB friendship request God knows how long ago was a female co-worker. Who was like LO; yes single, yes attractive, and yes a wonderfully sweet and funny woman. But no limerence to interfere.
Yeah, I have a friend who’s gay, and in my head I call him my BFF. He is definitely hot, and much younger than I am, and we have so much stuff in common, so obviously I glimmered for him at one point. I used to wonder if any of it was mutual. But then he came out to me, said, “You honestly didn’t know?” No, I didn’t. But now I did, and the glimmer faded with the uncertainty. Now I knew he wasn’t into me in that way. He’s still my special friend and I still think he’s hot, but without the sexual tension. I can share things with him without worrying if I’m overstepping some boundary. My SO has no problem with opposite-sex friends, but if he ever did, it would be real easy to reassure him.
To any woman, who understands the faintest idea of limerence, and who becomes limerent for a gay man, my message is – LEAVE HIM ALONE!
In my slightly earlier life, before I understood anything much except the idea of crushes, I was twice smothered by the attentions of persistent women whom I had met socially – one as a neighbour.
I was shy, a tad lonely, but delighted and flattered to meet someone who wanted to be my friend, a close friend. Then suddenly it was too late; I felt used and exhausted. It would never happen again, even if I were a few years younger. I am now so much more aware. Yet it did happen twice.
I have to reconcile these experiences with my own feelings (enduring but fading) for a heterosexual young man who used to be extraordinarily affectionate towards me and who has a SO. It’s “killing” me, in some ways, but I have to “leave him alone” too. OK, I’m still doing Christmas and birthday cards but the hope is that one day, one day, we will be able to be just friends…… Believe it or not, I thought that the affectionate messages were just…. affection.
Frederico, that is an interesting comparison. I’m curious, did you become friends with any of your limerents after they settled down?
I have a real friendship with my LO2, but I don’t think that is typical. We still text and do lunch occasionally. He even knows that I had limerence for him, though I didn’t use that word. His friend asked me what LO2 did wrong to lose my affection. I already told them that I replaced LO2 with one of my running friends, but I guess he forgot. Well, he must not have entirely forgotten because LO2’s friend seems to despise one of my other running friends who has nothing to do with any of this. What a mess.
Anyway, I see that you hope to have a friendship with your LO someday. Have you ever been friends with someone after they had limerence for you?
That’s an interesting slant, Lovisa. No, I am no longer in contact with either of the two ladies. The first became angry because I didn’t reciprocate and the second no longer wanted to stay in contact because it was painful for her. These situations were fifteen and ten years ago when I had no idea about limerence or obsession. I feel embarrassed to admit that I just thought they were simple crushes. I could have handled them better by being more aware, patient and kind.
I think it’s very nice that you have a real friendship with your LO2.
My hope to be a normal friend of my LO one day may be pie in the sky, and it is against what I know to be sensible. We had a remarkable bond but I don’t want to embarrass him.
Frederico,
I was thinking about these dynamics between hetero and gay friends.
The problem might be sometimes that the hetero (or gay, it works the other way round as well) feels kind of „secure“ in showing affection, because there will never be any doubt that nothing can happen, because of „nature“, as if they are securely in their „hetero“(or gay) drawer and the other one in the „gay“ (or hetero) drawer. So they don’t feel inhibition to act out their affection.
But this show of affection is a bit more than just affection- maybe they feel that they are attractive to the friend and that boosts their ego, and they love to boost their ego a bit more by getting a tiny bit flirty etc., not consciously, but unconsciously seeking to feel good and attractive while feeling safe.
The other thing is, that there are no drawers, only persons, and there might be some real attraction mixed into the „safe“ affection. But the hetero (or gay) person cannot let that happen because it would confuse them, so they withdraw and blame the other person who reacted to the confusing mixed signals.
This discussion is interesting because a have a friend/colleague (woman) who is gay and we get along very well,and now I‘m not quite sure if I shouldn’t be a bit more careful since I feel a tiny bit of something from her. She‘s the last person I want to lead on or confuse, so maybe I should watch my behavior more🤔
That’s another interesting perspective, Mila. Sometimes I look back at professional and social relationships and wonder if, on either side, there was something under the surface.
I have an observation which is inspired by the above discussion, but isn’t strictly related to the above discussion, and I’d like to share this insight with the group because I think it might highlight something really important about limerence – even something that gets to the very heart of what limerence is and why limerence so often “goes wrong”. 🤔
In a previous blog, Dr. L talked about how sometimes there’s an “ineffable shift” in mood/emotion/energy among posters on the board itself. I’d like to appropriate his vocabulary here – “ineffable shift” – to explain something that happens in limerence. Something which a lot of people appear to struggle with deeply…
This is all pure conjecture on my part, but I feel I’m striking increasingly close to some kind of truth that could be scientifically tested/verified. In limerence, between Stage One (The Glimmer) and Stage Two (Crystallisation) there is an “ineffable shift” in mood/emotion/energy between the two concerned parties.
For example, in Stage One of limerence, the infatuation probably feels highly enjoyable to both parties, regardless of whether the feelings are returned or not. There’s a lot of fun, laughter, mucking around, etc. During this phase, most LOs would welcome attention from limerent, because, let’s face it, everyone’s having a grand old time. 😉
The good times don’t last, however. At some point, for the limerent, Stage Two or Crystallisation occurs. The energy between limerent and LO almost imperceptibly changes, like the sky changes when a storm brews that no one saw coming. The energy stops being wholly light-hearted and frivolous, and becomes a little “heavy”. The hitherto happy limerent, in other words, starts “acting intense” around the LO.
Now, if the LO reciprocates the limerent’s feelings, this “ineffable shift”| in energy between parties is more than welcome. The LO feels the same way, and a relationship can be pursued, provided there are no other outstanding barriers to consummation. (My observations here mostly apply to two people who are single and who want to get into a relationship).
If the LO DOES NOT reciprocate the limerent’s feelings, however, the LO very likely finds the “ineffable shift” in energy between parties … spooky, disturbing, upsetting, confusing, troubling, you name it. Some LOs might panic, and start making accusations of a rather distressing nature. Other LOs might just feel very tongue-tied and awkward, and start avoiding the formerly favoured limerent.
But essentially what’s happened is there has been a change in energy between limerent and LO. The LO has very likely noticed the change in energy. And the limerent has changed in the way they are relating to LO even if they themselves are unaware that their energy has changed. The relationship isn’t quite so carefree as it once was. The stakes have invisibly up themselves, etc, etc.
This is the most delicate impasse in limerence, I feel, and this is the moment where things tend to go pear-shaped, and tend to go pear-shaped quickly i.e. the ineffable shift in energy in an infatuation between The Glimmer and Crystallisation.
I’d also hazard a guess that there’s an “ineffable shift” in mood/emotion/energy between Stage Two (Crystallisation) and Stage Three (Deterioration) of limerence. However, this second “ineffable shift” is much less discussed, as it tends to be less dramatic/traumatic, and would mostly entail a loss of interest in LO – or loss of interest in relationship with LO, if indeed a relationship with LO was forged.
What does everybody think? When an LO “recoils in horror” from a lovesick limerent, really all the LO is doing is reacting instinctively to the “ineffable shift” in mood/emotion/energy between parties between Stage One and Stage Two of infatuation. If an LO reacts instinctively in a horrified manner, I think it’s safe to say they don’t reciprocate the limerent’s feelings and aren’t looking for a deeper involvement with said limerent. By the time Stage Two hits, however, the limerent is most definitely “stuck” in the bog of their own emotions. 😉🤔
Sammy,
Hard to say in that most of the people on here are partnered. I’m assuming there is no shift in that the limerent knows the whole thing is doomed from the start ? I should have known mine was doomed, but I was living in La La Land. 😉
“I’d also hazard a guess that there’s an “ineffable shift” in mood/emotion/energy between Stage Two (Crystallisation) and Stage Three (Deterioration) of limerence. However, this second “ineffable shift” is much less discussed, as it tends to be less dramatic/traumatic, and would mostly entail a loss of interest in LO – or loss of interest in relationship with LO, if indeed a relationship with LO was forged.”
I don’t know if it’s a loss of interest in the LO so much as (at least in my situtation) realization there’ s little hope of anything happening and the lows that come with that. Or the frustration if the LO is enjoying the attention, encouraging the attention, but never going to do anything about it. The realization that the LO is just flitting about, not a care in the word, and the limerent is deeply hurt. The realization of the difference in interest/investment between the limerent and the LO that throws the limerent to the ground (Deterioration).
Marcia,
“Hard to say in that most of the people on here are partnered. I’m assuming there is no shift in that the limerent knows the whole thing is doomed from the start ? I should have known mine was doomed, but I was living in La La Land. 😉”
I can so relate to this. Now that I’m at the tail-end of my decades-long LE, looking back, it feels like my mind has gone mad during the deep-ends of the LE cycle. Like why can’t I just think that I shouldn’t be having LE when I’m already partnered and happy with my SO too?
Worse, if given a choice, I wouldn’t want to have a partner who is a limerent like me, nor do I want to hear about his LE if he’s a limerent. What a hypocrite!
When my last LE with LO#4 hit its peak, who was an online friend, I instinctively knew it felt similar to my thoughts of LO#1 and when it was glimmering (this was before I’d heard of the term limerence). After that realisation, I got in a frenzy to search online about this unfortunate addiction, and I think I’m saved by the floatie given by Dr. L and the community.
I know now I just have to keep myself afloat on a sturdier platform than that swimming ring, and building myself a boat or a ship takes time and patience. Possibly sometimes still falling in the water.
Another point is that I noticed that unlike me, some limerents don’t mind if their SO is limerent for another. Maybe it’s only relieving if, despite being limerent for LO, they end up choosing SO. Which to me kinda indicates that either the LE haven’t gone to the deep end, or they have decided that they will prioritise SO over LO.
Of course, if a limerent wants to choose both, the ethical thing to do is open up to SO and/or open up the relationship, in my opinion.
What hurts me is sometimes when hearing limerents prioritising LO emotionally than their SO. It’s the same hurt I felt on behalf of my mother, finding out my dad was having an EA. I could sense my mother was suffering in silence and second guessing herself. In my anger, I directly confronted my dad to choose his LO or mom. He has since stopped communicating with his last LO.
However, I knew somehow from observing my parents that my dad had several EAs in the past. And what’s mind-boggling is that the fruit didn’t fall far from the tree, when I realised I’m a serial limerent myself. So what perfect chance for me to ask the same question I’ve asked my dad towards myself? Choose LO or SO.
I’m with Dr. L that one can’t be friends with LO if the LE is still present. The cases where I’ve read they have end up being just friends with LO are when the LE has long faded, with no risks of bobbing up again.
There won’t be overthinking about how much or how little communication with LO will happen. It’s like they’re another friend who you’ve never had a glimmer for, but are just able to smile inside thinking there was a dark and addictive episode once and it was over. Something they can laugh at themselves about.
If LO appear in the limerent’s life, it’s all fine and dandy. They’re able to talk normally, no “hopium”, as someone coined in the forums. No weird feeling in the guts anymore. And there’s no pursuing or intentionally planning out contact or thinking of ways of avoiding/minimising contact with LO.
Too bad I can never feel that way about LO#1. It’s been a very long NC and I don’t wish to cross paths with him as I imagine it would be super awkward. I always try to think of his wife whenever thoughts of him pop up. And my occasional subconscious dreams of LO#1 seem to be doing the same too.
Why,
“In my anger, I directly confronted my dad to choose his LO or mom”
Well, that’s just it. Most limerents want both. That isn’t to say that limerents want a PA. At least the ones on this site don’t seem to. But I think most want to keep the LO in their lives in whatever capacity they currently fulfill — a flirty friendship, an EA, a text/sext buddy, etc. And keep their SO.
Which would be fine if the SO was informed and given a say in the matter.
Oh yes, I can hear Marcia’s voice replying “That is if SO hasn’t chosen to walk away first” from my “Choose LO or SO” question, lol!
And I would agree with that too. I wanted badly to say to my mother to just leave my dad with his fantasy LE with his LO, but I could tell my mother isn’t the type to give up on the relationship. My dad is her first and only love.
@Marcia.
“Hard to say in that most of the people on here are partnered. I’m assuming there is no shift in that the limerent knows the whole thing is doomed from the start ? I should have known mine was doomed, but I was living in La La Land. 😉”
Well, I suppose my little theory would best fit not just people who are single, but also people who are new to limerence, and all the emotions inspired by limerence, and are not 100% sure what’s going on – not even inside their own heads. (I’m talking about the ineffable shift in mood between parties between The Glimmer and Crystallisation). 😉
I suppose if one has attended a few limerence rodeos in one’s life, one would be much better able to judge whether a particular enchantment is doomed to fail or not. Although, as you suggest, sometimes we ignore our own intuition regarding red flags, etc. 🤔
I’m just thinking about my own life. I seem to be forever thinking and talking about my own life. But that’s where I get all my insight about limerence from. I’ve been strongly attracted to four, maybe five, men in my entire life, and that’s it. There were only four or five “serious interests”. Everything/everyone else was “fluff” that I didn’t really think about.
Now, of those four or five interests, I believe only one proceeded to Stage Two – Crystallisation. Only one infatuation became a source of great pain to me and a source of (exasperation maybe?) to the other person. And, you know, there was an “ineffable shift” in my attitude towards this man – an ineffable shift that I was unaware of, but that he picked up on right away.
Something just changed between us. Something in the air. He noticed the different energy, and it made him very uncomfortable. (I know it made him uncomfortable because he told me it made him uncomfortable – he was desperately trying to salvage our platonic friendship, and I was sinking deeper and deeper in lovesickness, searching for signs that weren’t there).
I’m kind of at the point in my life now where limerence doesn’t cause me pain anymore. I’ve kind of gotten over the shame of being attracted to “the wrong person”, for want of a better term. So I’ll share the whole story. And the reason I’ll share the whole story is because it illustrates the point I’m trying to make, and may help other people make informed decisions.
Basically, I invited this man over to my home. He was happy to come. We had been (platonic) friends for at least five years beforehand. I think he glimmered for me from day one – like, wow, that’s that most gorgeous man I’ve ever seen! There’s something special about that fellow. It was a real deja vu feeling, like we knew each other from a previous lifetime or something.
Now, after years of self-analysis, I know why the pull of attraction was so strong – this man embodied a much younger version of my biological father in terms of physical attributes. Also, he was “pathologically shy” just like my father, but also extremely intelligent and charming at the same time. He was like this wonderful golden prize, seemingly obtainable but always just outside my reach.
I think we did have a real friendship for a couple of years. I didn’t really think about him that much. There was actually one or two guys ahead of him in my mental tally of “guys I really like”. But one day he sort of moved up to the top of my list. (The other two males had married their high school sweethearts and this chap was still single).
I think my attraction to this man grew because he showed me the interest that I always wanted my father to show me. I wanted more of that attention. I wanted more of that sincere admiration. We were communicating by letter all the time. However, just like my father, this man couldn’t sustain the “warm, emotional connection with another male” for long. He kind of dropped in and out of range, like a bad radio signal. I think his pathological shyness played a role in his erratic behaviour.
Anyway, long story short, I invited this man over to my house. (His first visit). We were having a deep discussion about something deep. (I think it was the meaning of dreams. He even offered to interpret one of my dreams for me). Then he made a rather juvenile joke (about gay men, and people always assuming that he was gay) during the conversation which my brain misinterpreted as 100% pure emotional reciprocation. My limerent brain believed that he was telling me that he was available and interested. Ecstasy flooded my brain on the spot. I was delirious with happiness.
What followed next shocks and appals me to this day. I made a pass at the man. Or, at least, I made what other people consider to be a pass – or what my LO interpreted to be a pass. (Totally out of character for me. I had never made a pass at anybody in my life, never tried to make a pass at anyone in my life, and barely understood the concept. I had no idea I was subconsciously attracted to this man. My brain was just “crazy high”).
The guy was suitably horrified, as one might expect from a straight man who makes stupid jokes about gay men. He looked at me in disbelief and said something. I believe his exact words were: “Excuse me?” There was so much tension in the air, but I couldn’t tell whether the tension was attraction/excitement or dread/revulsion – probably a little of both. But the man didn’t immediately up and leave. Nor did he respond to my alleged “pass”. He just sat there and played two more games of chess with me!! After the second game of chess ended, he said goodbye and went home.
The man more or less withdrew from our friendship after that. I would ring him, and he would briefly talk and then hang up. Eventually, one day, he told me he’d write me an email explaining why he was always abrupt on the phone. In the email, he was extremely kind and polite and all those wonderful things. He told me that he knew I was a kind-hearted person, and my kind-heartedness would hopefully help me understand what he was saying in the email. I don’t want to disclose what he said in the email, because that information doesn’t need to be in the public domain.
But I think what he was trying to imply – very, very badly – was that he did NOT requite my limerent passion and that my limerent passion made him feel intensely uncomfortable. He absolutely “detested” being approached by the same sex. However, he still really looked up to me as a human being. He still valued our friendship, and he still wanted to remain friends.
I did my best to understand where my male friend was coming from, and respect his boundaries and respond appropriately to his stated needs/wishes. However, my limerent brain just wouldn’t give me any rest. I read the email the man sent me over and over again, trying to understand the meaning of every sentence, every word, every punctuation mark.
My love-crazed brain could devise fifteen, twenty, forty-seven different meanings for a simple phrase! My brain was obsessively searching for something in those (totally clear and straightforward words, in hindsight) words that just wasn’t there. I was looking for reciprocation even after the man had done his best to reject me in the gentlest way imaginable.
I had a full-scale nervous breakdown about six months later. (The man continued to be in my life, and I continued to overanalyse everything he did/said). Eventually, I became so tired (mentally, if not physically) that I wanted to end my own life, and indeed did try to end my own life.
The reason I wanted to end my own life was that I wished to escape the intrusive thoughts I was experiencing. I just couldn’t live with the intrusive thoughts. I wasn’t trying to manipulate my LO into loving me and I didn’t think “life has no meaning without LO”, because LO was still in my life – and he was in my life of his own free will, because he chose to be. He loved me as a platonic friend. He didn’t love me as a potential partner, however.
I was hospitalised after my suicide attempt. I was released into the care of my family after a three-day voluntary stay in the mental ward. The doctors decided I was depressed and/or maladjusted, but couldn’t find any meaningful explanation for why I might be depressed/maladjusted. (I told them I was suffering from “nervous exhaustion”, just like a certain nameless pop diva who was in the headlines at the time. See, even at my lowest point, I still had a camp sense of humour). The doctors/nurses thought I was funny, and enjoyed talking to me. My dad, on the other hand, was singularly unimpressed and thought I was behaving badly on purpose. I.e. I was choosing to be this ungrateful wretch who had mood swings.
My LO remained in my life even after my suicide attempt. He was genuinely a good man, a kind man. He wasn’t angry at me for allegedly “making a pass” at him. He just wanted me to get better, and return to the person I was before I fell into obsession with him. He wanted his old friend back. He even phoned me and wrote me letters asking whether I was okay, and he hinted at his own struggles with both depression and suicidal thoughts.
I just couldn’t go on, not knowing how this man truly felt about me. I couldn’t live with all the mixed messages and unclear sexual signals. One day, I just snapped in anger/distress and cut him out of my life completely. He still wanted to be in my life. He was hurt that I cut him out of my life. However, I just couldn’t cope with the non-stop pain inside my own head.
As a direct result of limerence, I was in terrible pain for the next seventeen years, but the pain gradually lessened with the passage of time. I was never friends with my LO again. However, he landed a really prestigious job at one point, and I sent him an email congratulating him on that, and also apologising for what happened between us. (I admitted, truthfully, that I really liked him and thought he was a good man, but I didn’t understand his personality. His personality always seemed unfathomable to me).
I told LO I didn’t need/want a reply to my email, and he didn’t reply -presumably busy with work. However, since he was a good man, I thought it was important to let him know there was no outstanding ill will between us. In his original email, he specifically told me that he hoped I’d harbour “no hard feelings” toward him and I’ve always done my solid best to honour that request of his. As a forty-year-old, I don’t have hard feelings toward him. I mostly feel proud of him because of his professional successes. Several years ago, he got engaged to a lovely woman, too – an attractive extrovert woman who seems to “get” his pathological shyness.
So, yeah, that’s my “limerence nightmare story”. How do I know I’m no longer in limerence for this particular man? I know I’m no longer in limerence for this particular man because I no longer write poems in which I “argue” with his ghost/fictional counterpart over the precise meaning of the email he sent me, and everything else he ever said/did during our interaction!! I’ve kind of “laid the ghosts of the past” to rest. 🙄🤣
Hi Sammy,
I’m sorry you were hospitalized, but I don’t think you did anything wrong. You made a pass at someone you liked. And he wasn’t interested. No harm, no foul. It happens all the time. People make passes at friends. It’s happened to me. Male friends have made passes at me. And it sounds like your friend still wanted to friends.
Now, of course, I realize you were limerent, which means the pass was fraught with a lot more weight. A lot more.
And there was the dynamic of you being gay and your friend being straight. Was this about 20 years ago? I think some of those dynamics are less important today. I think peoples’ attitude have evolved. Not everyone’s, of course, but a good number of people. I’d look at a pass from a woman the same way I’d look at a pass from a man I wasn’t interested in. Still flattered that someone found me appealing. It’s just not an offer I want to take.
Sammy, what a heartbreaking story. Your pain comes through in the words. I am glad you are feeling that the limerence is gone or at least reduced and the pain diminished. While none of us in the forum have gone through exactly the things you did, please know that a lot of us can surely empathize and relate to various aspects of your story and your pain.
Oh Sammy, so sorry for your story. I was aware of your suicidal episode on another post in the past. Still it touches every fiber of my soul.
I totally empathize with you because that’s the way I felt when I broke up with my LO who was my SO for three years. I mean, the part of where you succumbed to suicidal attempt . I was so afraid of the love I had for LO, love with such an intensity, that is: body, soul , spirit, mind, all of me, that when LO moved to another job and I felt a little distancing from him, I thought that if he ever dumped me I would not be able to put up with the pain and probably have a nervous breakdown or commit suicide. Such was my fear of separation that I ghosted LO, sent back to him the mementos and would not answer the phone. He came to my office but it was a very awkward conversation, very brief, he didn’t ask what was happening, instead asked if we could stay friends. That further fueled my fear, thou I said it was ok to stay friends, I knew that I would never be his friend, I knew this was finished, period. I had to avoid future pain, protect myself at whatever cost! And that meant running far, far away from LO. He called one more time, early in the morning, which in three years he never did that and said: “ This LO,( name and last name) And I have never before loved another woman more than I have loved you.” To which I replied: “Now is too late.” ( I don’t know where that came from because all I wanted to say is that I loved him even more , but I held that inside me, never voiced it).
Then he said: “ I just wanted you to know that.” To which I replied: “Sorry I have to hang up because its getting late and I have to get ready for work.”
That was the last conversation with LO forty nine years ago. ( I have it written in a book of literature I carry all my life with entries of different conversations or important events in my life). To this date it stares right at my face as the most silly ,awkward conversation I ever had on such an important thing/decision of my life! It was the first time I have let someone love me and let myself love someone else without barriers, no shields up, I was extremely exposed sentimentally!
I managed to go through it because I numbed all my feelings and pushed forward, putting all of my attention unto a new job and making new friends, going to BroadwayShows , the opera, ballets, museums, etc. I became so busy and tired I didn’t have free time to think, in other words, I bottled it all up…I had a girl roommate which supported me and I didn’t feel alone on this very crucial time of my life. Though I’ve had other romantic affairs before, I didn’t feel emotionally threatened by any means like this one with LO. Till this day I call him
“ My beloved”, “ a very special person I met in a very special moment of my life, that I don’t want ever to forget , and those precious moments we shared belong only to the two of us, that part of me I gave him no one else can have.” It took a lot of courage and nerve to walk away from LO.
The result of the breakup kept me avoidant and suspicious for a few years until my recent SO came along. Married forty six years now.
And like Sammy says: I “kind of “laid the ghosts of the past “ to rest…
Until last year when limerence for my ex boy friend stroke my life again, bringing all hell to my life , making me go through the nightmare I was avoiding all those years, confronting my past, life itself , its meaning etc. a wound that’s bleeding still, and there’s nothing that can help it. Am trying to cope with No contact for one year now. Some days are good others not so. I understand that this is a fantasy, an illusion, and the best thing to do is to kill all hopes of ever speaking to LO again . And may God help!
Nisor
“I knew that I would never be his friend, I knew this was finished, period. ”
I don’t know if this will help or hurt (I apologize if it’s the later); but I find good or bad emotions get “healed” by music. And your statement above reminded me of this song.
Don’t Expect Me To Be Your Friend — Lobo
https://youtu.be/Zir11p4oCFI?si=NWdkMKrIl7w9tKaf
” making me go through the nightmare I was avoiding all those years, confronting my past”
This is why I decided to confront my limerence out loud with my wife and not bottle it up like I do everything else. Maybe it didn’t turn out the way I had hoped. But it wasn’t something that was going to eat away my insides and make me want to drown my pain in alcohol. This quote (from an unlikely source in my opinion) will always stick with me as I am now paying the price for not facing my emotions.
“Unexpressed emotions will never die. They are buried alive and will come forth later in uglier ways.” — Sigmund Freud
I hope you well in your healing Nisor. I missed church last Sunday because I started feeling ill when I woke up in the morning and my wife had just gotten over a bout of Covid so I didn’t want to chance it. But I plan to go again this coming Sunday.
Adam thanks for your words and song. Lovely!
The quote from
Sigmund Freud is memorable. Very true. It’s too late now to apply it to the past experiences… if only I knew! But that’s the way I was, I used to bottle everything up , never showing a sign of distress! Being like “the indifferent professor “, I mastered it! Not anymore!
I have been with a bout of Covid myself, down for seven days and with antibiotics . Just a cough, nothing much. My SO has it also. Will
survive!
It’s good you didn’t go to Church, since you’re exposed to Covid, everyone will get contaminated. That’s why I don’t go out until I’m cleared , don’t want to ruin someone else’s Christmas.
Have a great evening! Hugs
Nisor,
Sorry to hear that you’ve had a covid bout in the past few days, I was wondering why I didn’t see your lovely, cheerful posts…
So easily getting tired, I’m spending more time to take care of my body and mind, trying to pull my spirit up without feeling restlessness.
Rest well, and continue feeling better!
Hugs!
Oh Snow, I was about to post to you when I saw your message! Thanks for encouraging me. I was down in the pit drained in melancholy myself,
specially because I was locked up and frightened for SO; he’s ten years older than me and he was coughing badly. If anything happens to him I’ll be lost in a foreign country, and he’s spoiled me so much I don’t know how to handle all that he does. He even does the groceries shopping! He keeps himself very busy. I’m not a young chick anymore to go on adventures like Don Quixote, ha. That was fine when I was young. I was pondering what would I do, if by chance I stayed a widow, would I go back to the states, or get a helper home and stay here? I don’t know, I feel I don’t fit anywhere anymore… so many years away it makes me a stranger anywhere. I don’t belong here and back home would also be strange to me. I used to say : any place I hang my hat 🎩 is home, that was a Barbara Streisand’s song I liked . I have moved so many times in my life I lost count. I’ll think
about it when the time comes, maybe I die before SO. Who knows !
Snow, please take care of yourself very much, you’re young and have a whole life before you, don’t waste it in silly ruminations LOs are not worth our love not even our thoughts. Darned limerence.
I sometimes think about how difficult it must be for you and Sammy and others like you to live in a world so strange to your world . If it is difficult for us straight people I cannot begin to imagine how hundred times more difficult it is for you guys. You have to put up with a lot in your lives ; you must be very courageous and strong to
survive this jungle we live in. It’s not fair, all we want is to be respected and loved, is that so much to ask? You know, Love is the most necessary /important commodity we ever need. It’s not gold, it’s not silver, though that would help quite a lot, don’t you think? Ha.
You keep your piano lessons going, practice a lot and think that you would take all your emotions to your fingers when they hit those piano keys. I wish I was near to give you a big bear 🐻 hug. Sleep well and to hell with problems and LOs.
I think you are absolutely right, Sammy, it‘s a dynamics I also know.
It‘s a question of balance.
In the beginning, both parties are on the same wave, there‘s attraction, light banter etc, but when limerence strikes on one side only, weights go down on this side of the scale, and the balance is gone.
If LO isn’t limerent too or even only slightly limerent, the thing that has attracted him/her was probably the lightness and banter, and when that is gone (because the limerent suddenly is awkward, intense, and, the most disturbing (balance-wise)thing, expecting something and LO feels these dark expectations), the thing that attracted LO is gone. He/she misses the lightness and happiness and retracts.
In my experience, there‘s a lot more issues involved in my „heavy“, intense limerent reaction than real affection for this man, all my insecurities and issues seem to pop up in disguise and hang on the weights of the scale…
That‘s what LO feels instinctively and doesn’t know how to cope with it, because it‘s of course not his business to deal with, it‘s mine.
At least that was the case in my early limerences. Also with my SO- even though he reciprocated, he felt overwhelmed by my limerence-heaviness and dependence and there was a big crisis one year into our relationship, but luckily we managed to get into balance again.
In my current LE, I manage much better. I was lucky (or unlucky?) in that all my LOs kind of reciprocated, not always disclosed, but I‘m sure of it (without a bit of reciprocation I don’t really get limerent), and they were bewildered by the heaviness you described and retracted, but never went away completely, they always stayed around and showed some kind of affection- never enough for my limerence brain, of course.
“I’d also hazard a guess that there’s an “ineffable shift” in mood/emotion/energy between Stage Two (Crystallisation) and Stage Three (Deterioration) of limerence. However, this second “ineffable shift” is much less discussed, as it tends to be less dramatic/traumatic, and would mostly entail a loss of interest in LO – or loss of interest in relationship with LO, if indeed a relationship with LO was forged.”
Sammy
In my case, Stage Two to Stage Three is more of a loss of my own illusory views of LO and of this LE’s impact in my daily life, which was dull and depressive prior to the LE, as I could not recover from a “breakup” and the consequential depression.
It took nearly two years for me to move stage 2 to stage 3. Until this past June, I knew intellectually that this LE was bringing me frustration, rages, false hopes, mood swings, and pains; however, I thought if I could truly lower my expectations and really switch to a genuine friendship (killing underline Eros pining) and treat LO as a flawed human being (who is insecure although erudite — I did learn a great deal from him, thus a Sensor), I would be okay.
But my Unconscious would not have my“positive” wish; the more I wanted to end it “friendly” and rip out some benefits of a platonic“friendship”, the more the Unconscious found its way to strike my altered thinking — limerence mentality. So even without really going NC/LC, my mind was gradually waking up, and my highly sensitive nerves aided me to finally FEEL realistic alienation/distance between LO and me, despite we are still very courteous with each other, as if nothing negative had ever occurred in the past. But distanced politeness is colder than icy glacier.
I still cherish LE’s glory first stage, but it appears REALLY like a dream to me now; that’s why I said the interaction with LO yesterday was like a week ago, a week ago a month, and a month ago a century… They all look surreal to me while I am engaged myself in actually daily trivial living, instead of dwelling on the tumultuous past or a completely unknown future.
So without any determination, willpower, or strategies, while NC in writing for nearly a month and a partial LC in person, LO’s halo and LE in my mind faded into distance (making me sad — I always cared more about my feelings than anyone else’s), so my limerence has deteriorated and I am experiencing its first post melancholy stage — no mood swinging though, my energy in doing anything is just low! I’m pulling myself up with efforts just to write a few lines here; there is little oil running in my engine.
I thought that even if LO wants to reciprocate now, I probably would run away — feeling too strange and having NO EA base. Once my illusory “closeness” with the Phantom is realized and truly FELT, I can’t imagine to be “intimate” with LO, whom I actually KNOW so little. The previous, occasional sense of alienation is now crystallized, which is making me feel so embarrassed about those hundreds of missives, although they have brought me so much HIGHs; they never crossed the boundaries of “close friends” — I treated him as one (as an ideal Phantom), while he did NOT reciprocate even as a close friend.
At my current stage, I doubt whether I can even remain as a friend of LO, let alone to building an authentic friendship down the road, after I recover from this LE….
Snow hi, Sorry
you’re going through the grieving period of a loss, the loss of LO, that’s very very sad. You have finally realized you have to let go of LO, your Phantom, since it was leading nowhere ? Your dream was to keep LO as a friend, but it’s seems impossible now. The future will tell. And you have to work in the same place which makes your attempts to forget more painful. That’s awful ! You ll find a way out, you are a fighter! It’s easy to give advice when one is not the one going through the pain… but we’re here to lend an ear and a shoulder to lean on and give you comfort . I’m not quite sure if I understand your post correctly, forgive me but these days my mind is not all there… I’m not sleeping well and feel very fidgety by being locked up because of Covid and no pleasant thoughts either. Oh well this shall also pass. Rest and eat well because we’re responsible for our bodies , no one else is.At least I’m eating well.
Hugs .
Hi Nisor,
I’m trying to pin down what I’ve lost and what I’m really grieving with such blue. My case has been a bit bizarre, because my Unconscious, not my logical thinking, has been involved here and there, without me making conscious decisions. But each message I posted here in response had unexpected, profound impact on my evolving emotions and the Unconscious.
Back in March through a dream, I separated the Phantom and LO completely and told him in person. A clear line was drawn between the two, and I kept the phantom in my limerent brain, while reminding myself that LO was no longer the Phantom (although the former originated the latter).
Then in June before discovering LwL, on Solstice night, I suddenly got tired or annoyed of everything and lost interests in monologuing to the Phantom. Naturally, I stopped writing and had no craving to pick up the pen, very strange considering LE is an addiction. So a complete NC began and lasted over two out of three months summer break. Still, the Phantom did not die, and LO was nowhere in reality.
After coming to LwL, trying to explore and understand my case over a couple of months, I thought I could keep the Phantom — my own creation (already cut off from LO), while somehow building an authentic friendship with LO, but didn’t know how to do it without a closure or disclosure. LO appeared uninterested in his own previous puzzlement and kept our interaction as cordial but distanced, with occasional sincere smiles or warmth on his face, in reactions to my good mood.
In October, we had a pleasant time for the cake and tea, because he wanted to find out what happened to my sudden “drop off” of my monologue texts during the summer. I told him that I went on an online “rehab” working to get rid of a newly discovered “addiction”, without ever mentioning the word “Limerence”. Later, I asked him whether knows the term of my “addiction” (just “Yes” or “No”), he said he might know but never give me a straight answer up to this day. I figured out that he did not want to take the matter to that direction, so just left it there. What’s the point of disclosure or closure, while I knew my LE was not over?!
Having experienced harsh childhood “abandonment” in that weekcare, I hated the sense of being abandoned or of abandoning anyone else, particularly LOs; the latter just hurt me as much as the former. So inside me I still believed and hoped that we could somehow remain friends after this LE is over. But I needed to get over LE first by myself without giving LO an icy face, which is very hard to do in reality, although the Phantom rarely got in between our interactions. My conscious mind has been able to leave the Phantom “at home”.
Then, my Unconscious struck my wishful thinking, crushing the Phantom and my LE, not LO himself, in my emotional domain — no reasons were given! I suddenly became repulsed by my own previous “interactions” with the Phantom and the highs it brought me — how on earth I could ever lived in that fantasy so smitten by and interacted with this non-existent Phantom! I was repelled by my limerence.
I’m probably repeating myself here (as in the response to Sammy): without much of my conscious efforts, I’ve lost the Phantom, whom I wanted to keep inside me — that’s my own creation, having little to do with the realistic LO since the March. LO seems the same as before, cardinal, avoidant, and still enigmatic, but I think he has sensed my mood swings, and received my “cold-n-hot” treatment…. I did not plan to do this, simply just being me. There is no need for me to explain anything to him or anyone else, it’s my own struggle to battle this LE. That’s why I was quiet for a while, while my moods kept sinking. I know you care about me a great deal, but I was too melancholy to talk about anything…
So I’m probably grieving my limerence which powered my “existence” so much for the past 6 years… As I mentioned before, I always cared more about my own Eros than anyone else’s Eros (in their own head, not mine) and always wanted to keep her alive. If she’s gone, the whole world would be dimmed down…
I do not ever treat one’s Eros as a commodity, it’s bestowed mysteriously from somewhere or by a deity or generated within by the blood genomic instincts, no amount of gold could buy it externally. I could not even cultivate it when I wanted. I appreciate and love Philia and Agape, but they’re not Eros.
Respect? I don’t care much abut respect, that’s something external relating to a set of social or moral codes or other people’s (un)biased opinions, not something tangible or substantial which I could chat with, hug or kiss, or take to bed… . I try not to hurt others and obey laws, then let the rest take care of itself.
But with clarity, I know my default state is the combined Love — Philia, Agape, Philaupia, and Ludus… Only I don’t know enough how to show them in this still “strange” world with my limited language skills and cultural knowledge. I’m so socially awkward, living in the margin of the society.
Don’t worry about the rest of the world, just take a good care of yourself while still recovering from covid! Despite of my blue, I’ve kept up my workout, meditation, piano practice, healthy diet, and a bit care for Mom.
Snow, hi,
We try to make sense of our feelings, and that’s something that is unexplainable even to ourselves or anyone else, and If one cannot understand how or what exactly is happening in our inner guts, how can it be put into words? We know there’s this deep sorrow , a wrenching pain, sadness , of something we have somehow LOST and now ANY EFFORT made in the now or in the future can bring it back!!! LO was never yours, but he broke your heart…Only our souls can deal with it, and it’s by bitterly crying and humbling ourselves to our knees that it alleviates the suffering a little bit. I can only compare it to Oscar Wilder s quote : “Where there’s suffering there’s sacred ground.” It’s a raw wound, DONT touch! It hurts ! It humbles you to the ground ! What he had to go through to come to this conclusion after so much soul searching!!! It’s unimaginable! I went through his letter “ De Profundis” and I absolutely can relate to him in his ordeal and deep suffering. ( not the same circumstances, but the loss, the suffering) Another quote of his is: “ Sorrow puts in contact with the divine.” It’s like surmounting all earthly things and having an encounter with the heavenly… for who can rescue us from this current suffering? But you are a phoenix, and like an eagle you can rise up from the ashes and rise up again!
Like John Greenleaf Whittier said in his poem “Don quit” :
“So stick to the fight when you’re hardest hit, it’s when things seem worst that you most not quit.”
You’ll survive this and come out flamboyant and stronger. Many hugs.🥰
Nisor,
I knew from the very beginning that LO was not mine, although he served as a surrogate parent (not an Eros object consciously) after I chose it for my urgent need (because he was “safe” from PA, already taken). We never dated besides rare tea/drink or lunch/dinner together, so there was no loss of LO during this whole limerence. I didn’t and still don’t know (didn’t care) what kinds of books he reads or movies watches or music listens to…
But the Phantom was mine, my own mind’s imagination and creation, generated within. I discussed this with Sammy that I was more in limerence with something deep inside myself, — the rare desire and exhilarating imagination, not the desired object, LO. Prior to that, I did not have such an “inspirational” desire, so it was precious, more than any external LOs, who was just an accidental “fuse” that sparkled an internal quest of the soul.
So I would not compare my experience with Oscar Wilde (I know well all about his absolute heart-wrenching story) or other limerents here, like you, who actually had “dated” or “friended” relationship with your LOs even for a short period of time.
Yes, I’ll get over this somehow… I’m a bit “wiser” than prior to this limerence.
Thanks for cheering!
Hi Sammy,
It is an interesting theory. I am not sure if my experience coincides, though. In fact, I have a hard time putting my finger on a precise moment of “crystallization” (or “nucleation” as I think Dr. L wrote in one of the early articles). I have never quite understood what was meant by those terms, at least as they applied to my case.
In my case, there was a definite, specific moment of “glimmer”, and then a week or more of questioning what to do, then a couple months of trying to hide my feelings to some degree but still sending cues to LO of varying subtlety. I believe I was already in a limerent mindset at that time. I can’t pinpoint the crystallization.
That said, there was a point at which LO made sure I knew that she knew, followed by some modest reciprocation but not enough for the elimination of uncertainty. I am not sure if that is the moment that would correspond to the ineffable shift your theory? I am not sure what happened psychologically to me after that particular moment, but probably changed the format of the limerence in some way.
All this was more than 20 years ago and all I have are my memories of what happened, as skewed and biased by years of a limerent brain!
Why,
“In my anger, I directly confronted my dad to choose his LO or mom”
Well, that’s just it. Most limerents want both. That isn’t to say that limerents want a PA. At least the ones on this site don’t seem to. But I think most want to keep the LO in their lives in whatever capacity they currently fulfill — a flirty friendship, an EA, a text/sext buddy, etc. And keep their SO.
Which would be fine if the SO was informed and given a say in the matter.
Which is hilariously against all that any man should think he can handle. If you got your hands full with one woman. Wth you think you’re gonna do with two! But there I was thinking I could.
Adam,
“Wth you think you’re gonna do with two! But there I was thinking I could.”
I think a lot of your brethern think they can handle two. 🙂
Haha guilty as charged. I’d sure like to try, but my SO isn’t into sharing and my LO is pretty good at maintaining boundaries, so I think I have to settle for like 1.1 at best (even though that .1 takes up a disproportionate amount of my mental energy).
A few months ago my LO had been really open with me for awhile and let me in on a lot of her struggles and demons, and then later she told me something like “I really wish I’d never shared so much with you, I only want you to know the good side of me”. And I was like “no, I really want to know all of you, the good and the bad, it’s not real otherwise”. And that’s 100% how I feel, but of course I know it’s really not real, not in the sense of living together and paying bills together and raising kids together real…
Recent LO told me something that made me strangely happy, she half-jokingly said that she felt sorry for both her SO and for me for having to deal with her issues and all of her ups and downs. And somehow that made me feel good inside, like it was a statement from her that she considered our relationship real enough on some level to put me in the same category as her SO.
Sometimes when she’s going through stuff, she’ll vent to me and let it all out and that feels really good to be trusted like that, and other times she keeps it all inside and keeps me out and that feels pretty bad, because it’s a reminder that at the end of the day I don’t REALLY matter to her in the same way that an SO would, and that her relationship with me will always be an adjunct to her real life, not a core part of it.
Lost in Space
Yeah that confiding in is the heroin of limerence. Our wives knows they can confide in us and so we are comfortable when they hit us up with something because that’s a part of marriage. Both of us, husbands and wives, should be there for each other to confide and communicate.
But when someone else does, especially a woman for us male rescuers, is something else. Someone that only knows you in one small capacity of life trusts you with her problems and trails because she hopes that you can help or provide a solution. That’s the high. I didn’t even fall into the trap of texting, and so glad I didn’t. But man that she would come and tell me, and only me, by her own volition (she told me that a lot that she shared with me was with no one else) was the hardest part of behaving and remembering to stay within my own set boundaries as a married man and co-worker.
Best of luck to you. While I didn’t count her leaving as a blessing back then I am starting to see it now. Balance the act as best you can since you can’t go full NC. Otherwise you might be repairing damage for as long as I have been.
Adam,
“Yeah that confiding in is the heroin of limerence.”
I often think about limerence in terms of drug analogies as well, and after reading your post I was thinking that it’s like my LO provides me with 2 different types of highs – like when she’s confiding in me, telling me how I make her feel safe, how much she appreciates me, stuff like that – that makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside, that’s the heroin. And then other times when she’s just happy and feeling good and we’re just joking back and forth and bantering and having fun together, that’s the cocaine high, I feel so energized and on top of the world during those times… at our best we have so much fun just talking to each other, we can talk for hours jumping from topic to topic, cracking each other up, making each other think, it’s really an amazing feeling and is actually my favorite type of interaction I have with her, much more than the “she’s sad and I try to rescue her” interactions, although those are part of the addiction as well. (And usually those happy conversations end with her saying something like “I could just talk to you all day”, followed by her avoiding me for the next week or two…)
This morning I was waiting for the elevator at work and I saw her down at the other end of the long hallway, she was laughing and joking with a couple of the other ladies and she looked so happy and beautiful and her voice and her laugh and her smile were so intoxicating I just wanted to experience a little bit of that warmth today, spent the day hoping that I’d get to see her for just a couple minutes at least, but no… and so now there’s the withdrawal pains but also the hope that I’ll get a fix later this week because she said we maybe could talk on the phone on Thursday… and on and on it goes.
Btw I know a lot of real life heroin addicts, and one thing I’ve learned is that it’s actually pretty possible to maintain a heroin habit for decades without overdosing, going to jail, all the bad stuff – I know heroin addicts who maintain good jobs, raise families, live pretty decent lives, despite using heroin every day… In general, the folks who manage to achieve longevity in addiction are the ones who are careful and don’t take things to excess – they use sterile techniques every time they use, keep their dose steady and don’t overdo it, are careful about where they get their supply, careful about where they use… maybe the experience of knowing these folks is one reason I think I can just keep living with this limerence addiction for years without anything bad happening, as long as I just follow some rules and stay careful…
Lost in Space,
“I think I can just keep living with this limerence addiction for years without anything bad happening, as long as I just follow some rules and stay careful…”
I don’t see how that can work if you’re so emotinally invested in another person while having an SO. Unless you’re polyamorous and all parties — including both SOs — are on board.
Some of them are handling two in reality, of course, secretly.
Snowphoenix,
“Some of them are handling two in reality, of course, secretly.”
I mean, yeah. But in reality it’s probably one full-time person and one part-time, who’s getting some of the pie but a much smaller piece.
Yeah limerence is only knowing one person in one aspect of their life. I didn’t see her in her day to day life. I didn’t see her bad days and everything else in her life she deals with. I was scooping out the chocolate out the Neapolitan carton while being with my wife full time and dealing with the day to day we both go through. With her I have to scoop across all three in the carton and take the good with the bad.
Adam,
Yes, limerence is largely a fantasy as rhe limerent doesn’t usually know the LO fully.
Adam, I remember this saying from COO, “a man has more than enough to handle with one woman, why does he need a second burden?”hahaha
It’s like a restaurant with music, either the music is good or the food is bad, or the food is good and the music bad.
One of the two suffers or pay the consequences.
Well, that limerent brain …
You are right Nisor “Well, that limerent brain ….” Same as any other addiction; why not one more drink, why not one more game of blackjack, why not one more hit? My brain convinced me, LO willing, I could make them both happy and have the best of both worlds. The longer she is gone, the more I wonder if along with her own reasons, she also left to save me from myself. Either way her decision for whatever reasons was a blessing for my limerence.
I wasn’t sure where to post this but I figured the coffeehouse would be ok.
I just watched this video about addiction while I ate my lunch. While it addresses in general addiction and all the kinds of addictions there are, it is mostly about digital addiction in the time frame that we are in now; social media, phones, notifications, likes, etc. I still found myself relating to it in the landscape of limerence and thought others might like to watch it too. It’s very informative (I had no idea this was really an issue as I rarely interact with social media) and well put together. I don’t usually recommend random youtube videos but I really found this one good.
How New Addictions Are Destroying Us
Then & Now
https://youtu.be/AdHOXKLgGUY?si=oWQbRveRfAEFFnvM
Well I am informed by mail yesterday that I have to attend a meeting for review of next year’s health insurance benefits this Thursday. It will be the first time since she left (June 3, 2022) that I have been back to that building. It is unfortunately mandatory. I am hoping for an uneventful visit. No whiplash, flashbacks or intrusive thoughts. I’ll try to be like the burger joint; in and out. We’ll see. Hopefully her ghost isn’t haunting the place.
No, Adam, it’s just a building, nothing more. She’s not there and hasn’t been for a long time.
It’s not a big thing to go there- nothing to see, nothing to worry about! Don’t let it get to you. The only thing her ghost haunts is your head, and since it’s YOUR head, you have the right to evict her from there, too.
At least please don’t worry about a building, and please don’t use it as an opportunity to get all nostalgic and throw yourself back into limerence – please!🙏🏻
I know that feeling very well Adam. Amazing what a location can do to your psyche. All those warm, fuzzy LO memories. Good luck with those intrusive thoughts.
Hi Adam. Hope your meeting goes well. For me, attending a place with LO memory would be more manageable than running into LO, and worse, her ignorance.
Hi Adam,
So tender our hearts have become for LO that we are even afraid of their shadow casting spell on us. It’s understandable that you’re concerned, the memories are engraved in your mind, how can one forget those sweet memories? You have being trying so hard to keep clear out of this limerence grip, and now you have to confront it again, even if it’s a building. These places can take a whole life of their own when it comes to memories!!! And one don’t want to backslide into flashbacks and ruminating again. Yes, we are sentimental people, too dammed sentimental, cannot help it. You have to go, just keep an open mind, and tell yourself it will be ok, say to yourself: I’m strong, I can take this, this is finished, etc. you have to train your mind to say no to invading thoughts and fear. Easier said than done as always…. I feel you, and I’ll pray for God to give you courage and protect your mind of any sad thoughts. You go ahead in peace and may the Lord guard you . Leave it in Gods hands. And He will do . Trust Him in all your steps and don’t lean on your own understanding, but acknowledge Him and He Will give you grace and courage and strength. You will be alright, Gods willing ! Blessings and hugs.
Mila
I am already trying to mentally prepare myself so as to not fall back into ruminations. I know it is just a building, but there are so many memories. Good ones, even despite the limerence. Like the time LO and her daughter played a prank on me. The time she backed into me with the forklift (she didn’t see me behind her) and then proceeded to nurse me the rest of the day out of feeling bad even though she didn’t actually hurt me lol I will try to remember them as good memories and not limerence.
MJ
Yes I am horrible about revisiting places I have been to without the memories flooding back. I don’t think I told this one … LO and my other female co-worker had a argument earlier one morning. I was on the phone after it happened with my other female co-worker and she was telling me about it and I told her “well it sounds like you two need to kiss and makeup”. LO happened to be walking by her office and she told LO “Adam said we need to kiss and makeup” and LO says “he would like to see that”. I didn’t say anything to her and then my other female co-worker tells her “well he’s not protesting” and LO says “typical man” lol Like I said to Mila; I will try to relive the memories without the limerence.
ABCD
Yes I think running into her in person would be a lot more difficult. I am hoping I can concentrate on what I need to and be in and out before I get a chance to get sentimental.
Nisor
If I have any mental weakness it is being too sentimental. About too many things. I hate goodbyes. I don’t like things changing that I don’t want to change. I just want things to be the way they were. Even with my other female co-worker who left earlier this year. I have good memories of her like the one I recounted above. Two wonderful ladies I am glad to have gotten to know for the time I did. Now I have to face the past but try not to relive it.
I went to the catholic church again Sunday. It was a nice service and sermon. I talked to the pastor (father? priest? I forget) after the service for a bit. I asked him about all the candles that they have in the church. I kind of remembered what they were for. Then as I was leaving to walk back to my truck I ran into (not literally) an elderly couple that were waiting to cross the street to get to their car. We stopped and talked together for awhile. They welcomed me to come back again and were interested in that I had never been to a catholic church except this time and the last time I went. It is a very welcoming congregation from the two times I have been. But I am not sure if Catholicism is for me. Lots of ceremony and procedure, when honestly I would like to have more sermon. I may go one more time. Whether I do or not both times were a good experience and give me a new perspective on life. Thank you for the prayers. I still haven’t done so myself. Maybe soon.
Hi Adam.
Glad you’re seeking for spiritual guidance. I was Catholic because of family background. But when I searched for something more to my liking , I tried different churches until I felt right about it. There’s no such thing as a perfect church, but some are more Biblical than others. I stayed with the evangelical ones because there’s no ceremony or candles, statues etc, it’s just the preaching of the Word as it is in the Bible. No additional books … We know how to read and how to discern when we read something, thank God for that, so no one can tell you otherwise if it’s not in the Book. Try other churches until you find the one that meets your needs. Be strong now, courage and hugs.
Well here I am again. I thought I was doing ok and then HE disclosed! Nothing physical has happened but there was talk of it, then a few days later he says he can’t (neither of us are available).
So now I’m back to square one, and I thought if only I knew how he felt, I could let it go, the wondering, the fantasising… but it’s worse than ever. I know what I should do, but I can’t quite bring myself to limit contact, plus I don’t know how to do it without appearing rude.
I really don’t want to be played, and I have a niggling sensation that that is what’s happening, although I’m struggling to separate fact from fantasy. How can he change so quickly!
It’s impacting every moment of my life and I’ve even started to devalue SO, mentally picking at everything he does or says and questioning our relationship. I’m so angry at LO for dropping me like that when prior to his disclosure I’d been doing ok. I wonder if he’d sensed that I was backing off and didn’t like it, perhaps he’s as much of an attention addict as I am.
I just want this all to go away but unfortunately that involves effort that I am sadly lacking in.
@Problem Child. I am sorry to hear about how you are feeling. Disclosure definitely comes with its own set of issues, as now, the mystery part is not there – does LO like me, does LO not like me. I guess the thing to do now would be to reduce contact, which I am sure would be very hard for you to do right now.
I definitely agree with your point on “being played”. I have felt on many occasions that my LO is trying to play me with her on/off behavior.
Wishing you strength as you navigate through this.
Thank you ABCD, it’s good to know I’m not alone, I try to reduce contact and then his smile, remembering the things he said, ugh, I’m lost in it!
Problem Child hi,
I’m so sorry to hear of your ordeal. I’m going to give you tough love…. It seems LO is playing with you or is very insensitive or insecure. He discloses and pulls back, what a dilemma! You don’t have to be LOs toy or puppet. It’s like he shot at you and missed the first time and now you’re handing him the gun to finish it. NO, No, no, it doesn’t matter if it looks rude, be rude, that’s what he needs and deserves; and go LC if you can’t go NC. Ignoring is the best medicine for this kind of people . Besides, you have to care about your health and here you’re thinking how not to be rude with him? Is he going to take care of you if you suffer a nervous breakdown? LOS will say or do anything in order to keep you trapped, but where are the facts? His behavior, does it show that he’s telling the truth ? Facts, not mere words.
You be strong now, have courage and take the necessary measures to heal yourself. Best wishes.
Hi Nisor,
He just doesn’t fit the profile of a typical player, he seems very genuine, or I’m totally naive. That is a strong possibility! Maybe his treatment is what I deserve too, I’m probably playing mind games too, I know I’m calculating my moves and words. This isn’t who I want to be and I feel lost. Yes, courage is what I need, to stop daydreaming and face reality, but I keep wanting to push it, I keep wanting him and he knows it I’m sure.
Problem Child,
unfortunately I cannot recall your story, sorry, but even without it the situation seems hard on you!
Maybe some reality check: what did he actually say, what did he mean- did he say anything about what he wants to happen? I guess not.
What are the possibilities? Would you end your relationship for him if he asked you to? Would he end his? I guess not?
Would you consider a secret PA? I warn you, don’t go there. It would be more heartbreak and stress than anything else, and it could destroy everything you‘ve got.
So what’s left?
You sound as if you doubt LOs motives for disclosing anyway. That doesn’t sound like someone in whose hands you would put your life, health and sanity, and that’s what you would do if you would engage in some sort of relationship with him?
It sounds cruel, but could you write this disclosure off as a victory- you got him, he wants you- and that’s all you wanted and can close the chapter?
As he‘s not the man you want to spend your life with?
Sorry for all the question marks, I‘m not quite sure of what I‘m writing, it‘s just off the top of my head (is that English..), but I do want help you.
All we limerents want is for LO to disclose that he wants as as much as we want him, but when it happens, it‘s even worse- that should tell us something.
So, as I had a shower after my run (Lovisa!!💪🏻💪🏻)I had this thought I have to write down to look at it. It’s nothing new, of course, but still.
An integral part of my limerences is a feeling that I judge as very positive: a love for life and people- when I open up I feel this almost motherly love and compassion for almost every human being in their struggle to be happy.
It can be gone very quickly and replaced by something opposite, but I try to save it and I always have a little bit of it inside, maybe a reason why I get along well with many people and I‘m well-loved at work etc., because when I’m in a good state I can feel or understand most people. (I know it sounds like boasting, sorry, but I don’t want to, I just try to formulate my thoughts. I can also be mean, mostly in my thoughts, and petty.)
Until now I struggled to lessen LO in my thoughts, to see him in a colder light, see his flaws so as to say „open your eyes, you don’t really want him, he’s not worth the trouble“, and end the LE by that.
Maybe I should go the complete other way and just enclose him in this feeling of general love, take care of him- which means enclosing his SO in it too, wanting the best for him which means wanting him to have a happy marriage and loving his SO too.
I mean, there‘s no real love for LO without love for his family, is there? Everything else is wanting stuff for myself, validation, whatever.
It sounds perfect now that he‘s away, let’s see how it looks on Friday when they come for dinner.
Yes! Do that! Love him unselfishly. The best thing for him is a strong, happy family. Encourage him in his marriage. I love it! Do it!
Hi Mila, I’m going to be the other side of the coun from Lovisa on this. Unselfishly showing love and support to LO sounds good in theory, but for me it never worked. I always had expectations of LO for reciprocation of some kind and ultimately ended up distressed over her.
If you can pull it off, then more power to you, but I fear that tactic just perpetuates the LE, even though it sounds noble.
Speedwagon,
you might be right, I might be kidding myself, I already feel the limerent thoughts sneaking in through a back door because it‘s just „universal love“ that I‘m feeling;)
I might not be strong enough to pull it off.
I still think it would be the right mindset, and I think it will at least help me through this dinner in two days‘ time as I really don’t want to feel anything else but goodwill towards him and his SO on this evening.
After that it‘s possible that we don’t see each other again this year, so time to think it over again.
Hi Mila,
No I don’t think for one second that either of us would end our relationships, and that should tell me all I need to know. But as a limerent I want it all! I was already wondering though, before he called it off, could I actually go through with it? It’s like I need to push it as far as it will go, and then I’d probably feel I had to give in, so to speak. And I think I’m upset that I didn’t get there first with the backtracking – like it’s a competition – which makes me question who’s playing who? Are all players just limerents, or some anyway? I don’t want to hurt anyone but I want my cake and I damn well want to eat it too! Isn’t that awful?!
He’d said things to the effect of wanting to give it a go, for a chance of happiness sort of thing, that doesn’t sound like a player, or is a true player so convincing that you wouldn’t know. Do either of us truly know what we want?
Please forgive me, can I clarify:
You both have SOs, you both wouldn’t end these relationships. He disclosed as in told you he‘s got feelings, you talked about getting physical? What did you say to that, by the way?
Then he pulled back and said he cannot do it (what? The physical? Or all of it, like talking to you etc?)
Doesn’t sound to me like a player, it sounds as if you two don’t know what you want, as you said.
All feelings left aside, please be aware of what a ticking bomb a PA is. The danger, guilt and energy- consuming deceit will eat much of your time and nerves and exceed the joy you‘ll get out of it. At some point things‘ll get sour and then what? The damage will be done.
I don’t mean it in a moral, ethic way. Everybody has his own set of morals, me too, I would never judge. Also, I‘m talking to myself as much as to you, because the danger of a PA sometimes hangs in the air.
I do think that what I said about a PA is the absolute truth, though.
Yes, I think he meant all of it, bar talking to me on a platonic level, I didn’t really question it, I agreed it was the right thing to do (though my heart, or maybe my ego, was breaking).
I was shocked to be honest, that he’d seemed to go from 0-100 so quickly. Although I suspected he was hiding his feelings, there hadn’t been any hint of him wanting to take it further previously, but he said afterwards, that he’d wondered about how I felt. So in that respect, he’d been feeling similar to me. Anyway I went along with the ride, it was exciting, and although we didn’t commit to a meet up, it was clearly on the cards. He actually seemed more eager than me!
Writing this I can see that it’s possible he wants a flirty bit of fun on the side, just to get him off when he needs it, pardon my vulgarity there, but that’s the potential reality.
Thank you for your honest and insightful advice Mila.
Hi all,
rumination time for me.
For people who read my recent posts, I invited my LO plus family to dinner tonight. Unfortunately one of my kids got ill this morning, and since LO just recovered from a several weeks long illness and seems to have a weak immune system (stress, is my guess), we canceled.
I left the final decision to him but I actually thought cancelling would be better because I don’t want to be responsible for him getting ill again.
So the evening didn’t happen, but he came over to pick up food because I already had prepared most of it.
I‘ m actually not sure what I feel about the whole thing. I‘m a bit sad but also a bit relieved that I don’t spend the evening looking at him with his SO while trying to be the perfect host. I know it would have a been a nice evening though, and we finally could have had time to talk and catch up.
I was glad to see him even only for a short while-
we write a lot, every day a few texts, but see each other seldom, every 2 weeks for a short time, maybe. That leads to something strange, I get a certain picture of him by text and memories/thoughts and get unsure how he really is in person.
He‘s lovely in person, unfortunately that’s what I thought today- in the last days I played him down somewhat to get a hold on my limerence and to get in the right „he and his SO are nice people, that’s it“-mood, but that had the uncalled-for effect of me being surprised by his loveliness when he came over today.
I‘m not very shaken by this, though.
I‘m kind of indecisive what I feel.