2022 is nearly done. It’s been quite a year.
In the UK we’ve been through three Prime Ministers and two Monarchs. It’s fair to say there’s been a lot of change.
The last few posts have been about the value of using momentous events as an stimulus to review your own life; to psychologically turn the page and look to the future. Obviously, New Year presents a similar opportunity.
In the last “Coffeehouse” post (for those new to the site, these posts are meant as open discussion threads), TP shared her story, which I think captures one of the most important principles about recovery from limerence and transitioning to a more purposeful life: you have to have something to look forward to.
TP’s marriage is on the rocks – zero romantic reciprocation from her husband and frustration with co-parenting their child. Marriage counselling is going nowhere. It’s hardly surprising that when a new limerent object appeared, they proved so addictive.
As TP quite reasonably points out, hobbies like pottery or hiking aren’t going to compensate for those problems. Despite working hard on managing the limerence, TP is struggling with recovery. To be honest, this isn’t too surprising – fundamentally, the problem is what does recovery offer? What will life look like if she succeeds? Yes, she removes the complication of an unreliable LO, but what’s left? An intractable, debilitating problem.
Trying to get over the promise of an LO, when you have no purposeful vision for how much better your life could be, is a tall order. Frankly, if TP’s LO had been available, reciprocating, and emotionally stable, she could well have dissolved her marriage and embarked on a new relationship. Instead, she’s now entangled with two emotionally unavailable men.
There’s no escaping how difficult this scenario is. It’s not going to be solved easily, and I can’t offer a solution in a New Year’s blog post. But there is some value in facing the question unflinchingly, even if you can’t answer it immediately.
Confronting difficult problems
Some problems go away if you ignore them. These can be the sort of issues that we can get overanxious about, but just by delaying a decision, the situation kind of resolves itself. Say: not replying to an urgent email from a co-worker, failing to complete a report on schedule, or missing a social engagement. Usually, those sorts of problems pass without any lasting consequences.
Big problems get worse.
Big problems need to be confronted because leaving them unresolved has consequences. Fundamentally, if you put off a difficult decision, difficult conversation, or difficult confrontation, it will fester. You’re going to have to face it at some point; delaying just means you will be doing so when you are a bit older, and even more demoralised and unhappy.
If the status quo is intolerable, you’ll have to act eventually.
Er, Happy New Year?
OK, so that’s the bracing lecture out of the way. Let’s be a bit more upbeat. How do you start? How do you build up the courage to confront a difficult problem (or difficult person)?
There is a good starting point, and it doesn’t in fact call for immediate courage, or even immediate action – and it is a good way to begin the process of becoming more purposeful. Furthermore, New Year is the perfect time for focussing on this principle.
Fundamentally, the project is developing a vision for your future. Limerents are excellent daydreamers, but this is an exercise that is focussed on yourself, not on anyone else (and especially not on fantasy rescue by LO). Instead, it’s an exercise in deciding who you want to be, and what kind of life you want to live.
For the time being, put aside the critical voice that warns you of all the downsides and risks. Just enjoy the freedom of developing a vision for the future in which you would be happy. You might start with some idle fantasies – no harm in that – but once you’ve taken that long vacation and bought whatever trinkets might appeal, what’s next?
What do you want from a romantic partner? What do you want to give back to them? What work do you find fulfilling? How is your relationship with your family? If the status quo feels like a trap, what would freedom mean?
Think beyond the immediate situation you are in, and beyond the short-term consequences of a shocking change – imagine life once the dust has settled on any disruption and you are now living in a new status quo. How would you feel?
A vision of a better future can give you the courage to confront difficult problems, and a sense of optimism that there is light beyond the present trials.
So, for those who are suffering this New Year, rather than making traditional resolutions, you could instead dream about what a better life could be like.
Then spend the year working towards it. With purpose.
Song of the Blog: “The Future’s So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades” – Timbuk 3 (1986)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVjTTcEuhtM
I asked LO #2 to marry me on Xmas morning 1985. She declined and moved across the country in the spring of 1986. But, she didn’t want to break up. So, most of 1986 and all of 1987 pretty much sucked.
Although I did study nuclear science, the future didn’t seem all that bright until I kicked LO #2 to the curb in early 1988 and met my wife.
Life got a whole lot better. I got what I wanted from life. I just didn’t get it from who I expected to get it from.
The forum is still accessible and comments can be posted.
I have to admit to being a bit slow off the mark today, after a late night to see in the New Year š
The forum is deactivated now. Can you login anymore, Marcia?
“I have to admit to being a bit slow off the mark today, after a late night to see in the New Year”
Hope you had fun. š
No, I can’t log in anymore.
It was fun, thanks š But I got a cold a couple of days later, which might be karma or might just be bad luck…
Dr L,
I misunderstood what features would change with the new year. Are we keeping the ability to comment?
Hi Lovisa,
Yes comments on posts are still live. Every now and again I write a post that has a general theme, which is an attempt to introduce the idea of limerence to a people who might be googling about “how to get over a crush” or similar. For those I sometimes turn off comments, as they are meant as entry points for new comers.
Comments are especially welcome on Coffeehouse posts.
The private forum that was hosted here at LwL has now been shut down, but some of the stalwarts from the forum have set up new (independent, but similar ethos) forums elsewhere. I’ll post links in the next post scheduled for this Saturday.
Great, thank you.
I ended 22 with my LO running hot with me before Christmas break and me falling right back into LE fantasyland. During the break she has now gone cold.
This post is timely to remind me that my way out of LE is a renewed sense of purpose and to stay diligent on the workplace LC strategy I put in place. One of the best things I read on here was a comment Dr L made in a blog. To paraphrase:
“My LO is a source of stress, not of reward.”
Nothing has been more true with my LO and I remind myself this daily. Here is to a purposeful 23.
It really does make sense from an addiction perspective! It makes me think about Allen Carr’s “easy way to stop smoking” when he says (I hope I’m not betraying the material) that the addiction to nicotine stresses you with the withdrawal, then taking a hit relieves you from that stress when you satisfy the craving. So cigarettes fill a hole they dug themselves. And it gets all warped up in the brain as “cigarettes relax me”, when actually cigarettes are the source of stress, not of reward.
I’m still addicted to nicotine though (and craving LO), but at least I know I’m not helping myself by giving in…
P.-S.: This is my first comment, I’m not sure I’m allowed to barge in here like that, I’m sorry if this is inappropriate.
Iām glad you are here, Marikat. Your comment was applicable and helpful. Welcome to the club!
Thank you so much Lovisa! You’ve emboldened me now (maybe too much even haha)
Welcome, Marikat. I’m relatively new here, too (certainly new to posting) and hope you find as much wisdom and kindness as I have here. All the best to you.
Thank you TP. I’ve found on this blog the best of the human spirit I could have expected, especially relating to this difficult experience of limerence. I’m sure that lead by DrL’s attitude we are called to be our wisest and kindest selves.
I’ve made another comment, with a (admittedly contrived) metaphor, read it if you’d like, there is a part for you. I wish you the best too, take care.
Hi Marikat, and welcome!
I wonder sometimes if our ability to be able to make emotional connections online (such as here on LwL) is a manifestation of the same ability that lies behind being in “the tribe”. I hope you find lots of support here. Nothing like compassionate people who have also walked the walk.
Iām cheering for you, Speedy! You have a good plan.
Thank-you. I’m glad you are on my side!
“If the status quo is intolerable, youāll have to act eventually.”
Hanging out here on LwL, I’ve noticed how often a bad marriage comes up. Assuming it isn’t rewriting history that Dr L warns us about, when there is a truly bad marriage – of course people will look elsewhere for love and connection. It is only human. And in some ways, limerence is the ultimate condensed, super-potent version of that (or at least feels that way). It is driven by an almost irresistible desire to connect with another person.
We’ve so many of us tried to tackle the limerence head on, but without rocking the boat that contains the rest of our lives (the boat that often contains SO and children and our community). But it doesn’t deal with the root cause. Which goes back to Dr L’s purpose.
I think a really through exploration of purpose might lead to an unexpected result though – you might find that “If the status quo is intolerable, youāll have to act eventually.” And the result might be rocking the boat anyway. But at least for a better, more worthwhile and honorable reason than the unpredictable, irrational beast that is limerence.
DrL I can’t thank you enough for your kindness and thoughtfulness in dedicating a post to my story. I am very touched and grateful for your wisdom. Interestingly, my therapist, too, is encouraging me to imagine “what if” scenarios to what my ideal future life might look like. I am struggling a bit to get past the immediate repercussions of leaving my marriage might be (financial, legal, parental, social changes and implications are super daunting). And although, hand on heart, I never fantasised about a LTR with LO (it is obvious to me that we would not be a long-term match at all – I had most hoped for us to be able to carry on a PA without it impacting our real lives), I would also have to think about dating again. Would anyone want me? Until my LE hit me like a force-field (about 3 years into my acquaintance with LO, and without ever before “noticing” him), I never even looked at another man in almost 10 years of marriage even though I was never limerent for SO. I guess the lack of connection just “snapped” in me one day. And I worry about ever feeling desire like I did with LO or finding a true connection again. All of that stuff.
Limmy, yet again, you’ve nailed it with your comment: the boat may need to be rocked anyway so the question is how and for what reason. Thank you as ever for your thoughts.
And Speedy, love that thought and will use your plan to inspire my own. Like you, I still haven’t had a reply (send on Dec 17) to my request for getting together with LO so I’m back in “cold”, too. But I am glad for it in a way, and have not felt tempted to contact him again, even with all of those socially sanctioned excuses to over the Christmas/NY season. All the best for your 2023, too.
I’ve been thinking about my response to @Speedwagon, thank you @Lovisa and @TP for your warm welcome by the way!
Thinking about limerence is LO-adjacent, so the only not-too-unhealthy option right now (I could be wrong). I went deeper (ha) with the “digging a hole” idea, I wanted to see how purposeful living related to it, here it is (it’s a bit long sorry):
I was thinking about someone’s life in the psyche like a patch of land, where one can build and grow things.
Maybe you have flowers (whichever you want), trees, a vegetable garden, pens with animals, or a pond with frogs, a house, whatever. Maybe it’s vacant because you haven’t found something you want to put time and energy into creating, or maybe you’ve built things but you’re not really satisfied with them.
Getting the glimmer is like grabbing the golden shovel. Giving in to limerence is starting to dig, to put up this LO statue that would be soooo pretty in your garden (they are majestic, right?)
Purposeful living would then be using the land for something you really care about (which is different for everyone), so that when you grab that golden shovel you are less likely to be willing to dig up some part of your land for the (sometimes gaudy) golden piece.
Living without purpose would be not using your land, or having these raised beds full of broccoli, and you know (or suddenly realize) that deeply you hate broccoli, so it would be quite a challenge to resist. Trouble in your marriage means the plants have been dying for some time, and looking at these faded flowers doesn’t fill you with joy. Though limerence tends to make you think that the LO statue would attract more butterflies than your luscious flowering lilacs anyway.
Maybe some people have harder soils than others, or do not have golden shovels (and are less/not likely to experience limerence), or some people have bigger statues (meaning if they get limerent they’re going to sacrifice a huge part of the garden, taking important and healthy parts away as well as the available ones).
What I think is interesting, is that limerence can lead you to really think about your psyche-land. Of course it’s not a good idea to erect a giant statue of someone. But maybe you should replace this broccoli with peas, or water those flowers, or start investing your time and energy in that fallow land. Maybe start building a giant swimming pool, if that’s what you’ve always wanted but never set out to do (because too much work needed, or you would have to uproot that apple tree you’re attached to…). Maybe not, but it would be useful to think about it and make an assertive decision.
@TP if I may, maybe those flowers can’t grow on that land, even if you tend to them perfectly. It doesn’t seem, from what I’ve gathered, that the garden needs watering or weeding. Maybe it’s just not the right climate. I’m not a gardener so I’m sorry if none of this makes sense, but I think that’s how it works? Sometimes you have to let die what needs to die, to be able to plant something else that may flourish, and maybe you’ll have to try a few things, maybe you won’t find the right flowers soon or ever, or maybe you have the right seeds in your hand right now, but in any case is it not better to have that fertile soil ready, than to watch the agonizing flowers forever? Of course it wouldn’t be wise to go scorched earth and destroy other parts of your garden, but you deserve a garden you’re happy with, or at least hopeful.
I’ve been reading “Women Who Run With The Wolves” (as well as other books from the purposeful living reading list…) and this comment is clearly inspired by it. If you haven’t read it, and are willing to, I think it could be of use to you! It’s a really interesting read in my opinion.
I had a decent end to 2022 with a 12 day stint of NC due to the holidays. Had a pretty bad relapse today after an hour or so talking to my LO. She showed a mutual friend of ours pictures and told stories to us about her times on break. My irrational brain took me down into the dumps because she didn’t do any of those things in the 30 minutes prior that we talked before he got there.
Even though I know that the most I can be is her friend for a short time longer it actually bothers the hell out of me still that I might not be her “favorite” friend at work. It seems absolutely insane that I can feel this dejected and down over something so silly. I am almost certain she thinks of me as a friend and even asked if she could use me as a reference for jobs in her new town after she gets married. It is like it is never enough though.
I feel like I lost a lot of the progress I’ve made lately.
Oh Rufio, that would set anyone back. Your response makes sense. Hang in there, Buddy.
Thank you for the kind reply!!
I’m not sure if it helps or not, but the other perspective you could have is that with you she doesn’t need to find such a superficial subject to talk about. I don’t know what you talked about before the mutual friend arrived, but it seems to me like holiday pictures and stories are quite small talk, it’s an easy topic of conversation with acquaintances. It doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not her “favorite” friend at work though you know the situation better. I can understand why you’re feeling low. You had a great 12 NC streak, you can be proud of yourself, seeing her again was bound to be unnerving. I trust that it’s a bump in the road rufio, hang in there, you’re doing well.
Yeah, we actually talk a lot about other things like what we wish we could do or want to learn. I know logically she thinks highly of me as a friend because she welcomes our talks and has told me multiple times she enjoys them. It is the little things the drive me nuts.
I am trying not to connect with my emotions on day 2. We just had a group chat and as others left and it was just me and her she made one of our little office quips we all like to laugh at. She was going to leave but paused as if she was willing to stay and chat longer but I just replied jokingly and walked out first. That was hard to do, haha.
Trying to avoid her now and get out of the day.
You walked out first? Damn, do you have any more of that self-control? I really need it, please… Seriously though, very impressive! It shows real commitment to yourself, you deserve to praise yourself.
Maybe not connecting with your emotions at work is the way to go? As long as you have somewhere else you can express them to not get overwhelmed (here for example)? We’re behind you with support!
Yeah, I would not read into that much at all. But I have to say, I am jealous your LO is leaving. I think you will find that your recovery from her moves really quick after she leaves. My LO is my employee and I actually daydream about her coming to me and telling me she is moving away. It’s actually a decent possibility in her life situation and one I would welcome.
Hang in there. Freedom may be close at hand.
Quite silly but I am both going to be relieved and quite sad. I hope something changes for you friend!
I had a tough day also after seeing my LO for the 1st time since Christmas break. Early, right after Christmas I texted her to say Hi and it didn’t go well. Short responses, long periods to respond. She did text me NY day to say Hi and Happy New Year but ended up not responding back after just a couple texts when I tried to engage in conversation. It as if she decided to set up barriers now not to engage me conversationally through texting.
Today seeing her, she was her normal self towards me. I acted a bit colder and didn’t engage her in any personal talk about her break. All our interactions were about work matters. I did catch her looking at me a couple times. It was the normal office vibe of attraction I have with her.
But last night I just felt really down. Limerence was in overdrive. Wanted to text her so bad to talk. My mind was making up excuses to do so, but I kept telling myself it was the limerence talking My sole focus right now is not to text. I need to get in a routine with her where texting is not part of our paradigm as it seems to really be a addictive trigger for me leading into more depressive moods. I would much rather have numb but consistent stable moods over the highs and lows.
I am not sure whether she will text me at some point. The rational part of me hopes she does not, but the limerent part checks my phone for a text every hour.
“I am not sure whether she will text me at some point. The rational part of me hopes she does not, but the limerent part checks my phone for a text every hour.”
This one calls for some plain old brute force.
You make a deal that says you’ll check your phone hourly for a week. Then you make another deal that says you check your phone daily for a week. Since you probably get a lot of texts, that may be the best you can do.
Anything’s better than nothing. Casinos make millions off very small margins.
My heart goes out to you, Speedwagon. I have been following your story. I do hope you can stay strong as it will be worth it. I came back to the website today, with my tail between my legs, as I feel that I have had a comparable experience. My LO sent a brief affectionate (kind of solicited by me) message on Christmas Eve. I have sent two back, including an equally affectionate message on New Yearās Eve. Not read and no reply and itās ākillingā me. I could have stopped this weeks ago because he is a former neighbour (and close friend) who moved away a year ago. I need to start NC once more.
Hi Speedwagon, I expected things to be back to normal with your LO in January. Sorry to hear that it was so rough. I like Limerent Emeritusā idea about limiting the number of times you check your phone. Unfortunately, you do need to prepare yourself for the inevitable text from LO. How will you respond? Will you be timely with your response? Will you let the Limerent Beast feed off her texts? Itās probably a good idea to have a strategy in advance. But, who am I kidding, if you are anything like me, you have a solid game plan that goes out the window as soon as you have contact with LO.
āMy sole focus right now is not to text. I need to get in a routine with her where texting is not part of our paradigm as it seems to really be a addictive trigger for me leading into more depressive moods.ā
Fabulous awareness, Speedy! Go with that plan. No initiating texts. You can do it, be strong.
Letās address the depressive moods. I donāt get those with my current LO (LO3) because I feel so secure in our friendship. I know that if I reach out to him, he will respond. And I know that sometimes he initiates contact. Itās so nice. On the other hand, my LO2 saw me as a threat to his marriage so he was extremely unpredictable in communication. He wanted to connect with me, but, in his friendās words, he saw me as āthe only woman who could tempt him to stray from his marriage.ā For the record, I wasnāt looking to threaten any marriages, I just wanted friendship. But because he saw me as a threat, he was hot and cold with communication. It was awful! I had the highs and lows. I think the lows were caused by my insecure connection to LO2. My mood was dependent on the contact that I had with LO2. I think he was my primary source of dopamine at that time.
Letās see if we can get you some dopamine hits that have nothing to do with your LO. Here is what I currently useā¦
Runnerās high
Cryotherapy
Playing outside in the cold (I built a snowman over the break)
Playing with my friends and my family members who I like
Friends and play are free therapy. What do you like to do for fun?
Oh, and letās count your blessings! Gratitude is a great mood-regulator! You have people to talk to about your limerent experience! That is huge! We understand and we donāt judge. I read your story and Iām like, āYep, I get it. Poor guy is stuck in the intrusive thoughts phase. I hated that phase. How can we get him past that phase?ā This community is awesome!
Thank you for the concern. It’s nice to know people out there in the ether care and understand.
I have been exercising a lot lately, I play guitar in a band, I have a lot of activities to keep me busy. My depressive states are not so much actual depression as much as they are just low moods and lamenting the fact that I’m a limerent nut job.
It’s very tough though, my LO seems to have cast a spell over me and I am still very much in the intrusive thoughts phase of this. But I know better days are out there.
Speedwagon, that is good news! You have creative outlets and you already exercise. Cool that you play the guitar in a band. Hmmm, very cool!
Yes I do care. I think a lot of people on this site genuinely care about us fellow limerent nut jobs.
I want to ask you about something. Please donāt be mad.
I talked to my previous LO and his friend today. I will call him LO2 because Iām on my third since marrying my fabulous hubby. I told LO2 and his friend that I know someone who has a crush on an employee and he wishes the employee would quit her job because he feels happy when sheās around and depressed when she isnāt around. I told them that this other person doesnāt like the highs and lows. LO2ās friend personal-messaged me that LO2 feels that way about me and that is why he avoids me sometimes. I suspected it, but I tested them directly today. (I hope that doesnāt hurt your feelings that I used your story like that. It was all anonymous.). Here is my question for you. How do I make this less hard on LO2? I really want to keep his friendship but I donāt want to make him miserable. What can I do?
Please donāt be mad.
Dude, the better days are most certainly out there. We are going to be ok. Iām with you on the intrusive thoughts. The mind can be a cruel master.
Iām not married so having an LO a decade + younger than me is like a constant reminder that I missed out on my 20ās and early 30ās. It beats me down with a lonely feeling that can be hard to overcome. I work out a lot but I need to take a cue from you and pick up some new hobbies.
Also, I know you are aware my LO is leaving in a couple months and while Iām sure it will be a relief in the end, right now it is just a bummer. She is such a kind person and doesnāt knowingly toy with me. It is MY problem. I just want to go back to the 6 months we had before the glimmer and laugh and joke with my friend again.
Ok, TED Talk is over.
@Lovisa
Not mad at all, my story is out there so use it how you see fit. Not like I’m going to run into any of you at the grocery store.
So let me see if I understand this right, you are your ex LOs current LO? Were you ever mutual LOs? I guess your question is tough because everyone has different triggers. You mention staying friends, but it doesn’t sound like you are much of friends if it is hard for him to be around you and how much of a true friend can he be if he is limerent.
I personally do a lot better when there is predictable routine to the interactions with my LO. Texting for me has become a trigger because it’s very unpredictable. On the flip side, my in person in the office interactions have become routine and are easy to handle. My advice would be, be predictable to him. You will have to determine what that means for your specific relationship with him. Also, flirt just a tiny bit. Maybe flirt is not right word, be warm. I hate it when my interactions with my LO are all matter of fact, I like a little warmth.
Last, I really wish me and my LO could talk the whole thing out. I know that means disclosure to an extent but I really want to just air it out sometimes and come up with a relationship plan so to speak. I can’t initiate that because I am her employer. I would welcome it if she initiated. But is it something that you could do with him? Would it help if he was able to talk to you about how he felt? Everything being unspoken and in secret but so much apparent (elephant in room) kills me sometimes.
That is very helpful, Speedwagon! Thank you. Yes, I can talk things out with him. We have been friends for 20+ years. What that looks like is we text or email each other periodically. And occasionally see each other for lunch or at events. Before the glimmer, it was very nice. Then it got weird. I would guess that from his perspective, I got weird. I donāt know, that is just a guess.
I can do what you suggested. I can be predictable and warm.
I understand the elephant in the room dilemma. But I still feel that it is best not to disclose attraction. Since it has already been disclosed with LO2, I feel like I can talk to him about it. I canāt emphasize enough that disclosing attraction changes the relationship in unpredictable ways.
Greetings from a French limerant! I wish everyone a happy new year, filled with purpose and recovery. This is my first post on this website which I discovered a few weeks ago. I had already heard about the term limerence before and thought it very interesting but couldn’t relate then. I can now…What started as a regular crush for someone I work with degenerated into a stressful bittersweet limerant experience. The difficult part is that I can’t enforce the no contact rule as we’re colleagues, so each time I feel I’m on my way to get over this infatuation, a new interaction brings it all back. LO knows I like him, is a big flirt and definetely has narcissistic tendencies. I wish I could just enjoy the seduction/flirting part that is thrilling and fun but not overanalyze every single thing in a obsessive manner. I don’t even want sex or a relationship, I think I want emotional intimacy which I can definetely can’t get from him…I noticed that I seem to be attracted to emotionally unavailable people. Can anyone relate? It’s so frustrating having to give so much thinking time to this non-relationship that is useless to my life. Being aware of it all and not being able to control or stop myself is such a torment! I stumbled upon an old french love song not long ago, it came out when i was a child and couldn’t comprehend the lyrics, relistening to it as an adult experiencing limerence got me thinking it’s the ultimate limerent song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRFUiuXK5Hk&ab_channel=HeleneSegaraVEVO
I translated the lyrics for anyone who cares to listen:
I watch you talk with people
You seem so faint to me, even transparent
I watch the days, life go by thinking
Iām not looking for love, Iām looking forward to it
I watch you having fun and I pretend
I canāt stop you from being a kid (childish)
You gesture wildly, you look so happy
You see, sometimes I hate the way I feel
Too many people loves you
And you donāt see me
I wonāt come out of this love unscathed
Too many people loves you
Gravitating around you
All the words of love I sow, you donāt heat them
I feel so distant from you sometimes
I wouldnāt want you to think Iām waiting for you
I force myself to hope but Iām lying to myself
So I watch you drifting away slowly
Too many people loves you
And you donāt see me
I wonāt come out of this love unscathed
Too many people loves you
Gravitating around you
And me, of course, I love you at my own expense
Too many people loves you
And you donāt see me
I wonāt come out of this love unscathed
Too many people loves you
And you donāt even notice
That itās because of you Iām fighting this strange battle
Too many people loves you
And you donāt even notice
That itās because of you Iām fighting this strange battle
have a great day everyone!
Bon jour!
Great song!
“I think I want emotional intimacy which I can definetely canāt get from himā¦I noticed that I seem to be attracted to emotionally unavailable people. Can anyone relate?”
C’est une question qui touche bon nombre d’entre nous.
Commencer Ć travailler ici: https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-psychology-of-wanting-unavailable-people/
Merci for the Internet. I can barely remember any of the French I took. Apologies if I butchered it.
Hey fellow new French limerent on the blog!
I have a note about the translation, I would have translated “je m’y attends” as “I’m expecting it” rather than “I’m looking forward to it”. It sounds a bit more ominous/less hopeful to me, which is what I get from HĆ©lĆØne’s lyrics. My title would be “There are too many people who love you”, I like that it looks like a definite fact, “trop de gens t’aiment” could be interpreted as a criticism. (Also you have a typo, it’s “hear” not “heat”, not really important).
The song came out when I was a kid too, I think we’re about the same age. I remember she was looked down upon at the time (at least around me, too “emotional”, women am I right?…), I also re-discovered her music as an adult and honestly she has a great voice. In my opinion “Elle, tu l’aimes” is such a powerful heartbreak song. I definitely enjoy her music more now that I’m an adult and can relate.
I’m attracted to unavailable people too, I think they feel safe to me in a way, they won’t ask me to be perfect (or anything honestly, they’re just not interested in “me”). But I’m also looking for emotional intimacy, connecting with people is the only thing convincing me I’m not living in a simulation. It’s the only thing giving a meaning to life sadly. So it’s hard.
Taking only the highs of limerence would be so great. It’s a shame that it’s a package deal. Have a good evening, hang in there!
@SL
How lovely, thank you for the translation of the song! Bienvenue to LwL.
@rufio
“It is like it is never enough though.”
I think this is the problem with any interaction with an LO. When I compare interactions that I have with LO with those I have with normal friends, I realize what I find perfectly satisfying from normal friends feels just not enough from LO. We want MORE from them.
I’ve been going LC/NC over the break too, and yes that first seeing LO after weeks of break is difficult. I felt down for 3 days afterwards. I even started dreaming of LO, which only happens when I really try to suppress my feelings about the LE.
C’est la vie as a limerent!
Oh, my goodness, so true!
Yeah it is quite brutal. I actually alternate between feeling depressed and feeling dumb for simply not getting passed this. I havenāt had a feeling like this since I was in my 20ās. I wish I could pin point what void this addiction is trying to fill. I have the opposite of an addictive personality. I have never had a problem with anything else. Frustrating to feel so empty over what is a simple friendship at this point.
@Rufio
Do you have a texting relationship outside of work with your LO? Do you wonder if once she leaves you might start talking more frequently over text or even on the phone or do you think that would be it?
I have found texting to be maddening and highly addictive. My in office relationship with my LO has become fairly routine, nice but routine. I can handle it well. It’s the texting after work hours that now causes me so much stress. There seems to be a very hot/cold nature to it from my LO and is very unpredictable that the reward/dopamine hit is off the charts. I would try to not go there if you don’t have to. I am trying to ween off it right now.
Speed,
No we donāt do a lot of texting, thank goodness. That sounds really bad.
I will say the conversation of āI was going to text you but didnāt want to bother youā only to be answered by āyou never bother meā has happened a few times in both directions.
Perhaps there is a sense from both of us that wouldnāt be ideal.
I would be in so much more trouble. Over break I did a favor she asked of me. She texted me on her day off freaking out because she forgot to remind me but I had already done it that morning. I told her so and said I would never let her down I just didnāt want to bother her. She hearted the message and sent me a super nice thank you with our little inside joke. We exchanged a couple more texts including the blushing emoji.
I kid you not I got dizzy. This wore off and my Christmas Eve was quite horrible as the emptiness set in. So, no, I will stay away from texts. Please stay strong brother and donāt text! If you feel the need just message us here!!!
I’ve been really naughty. I cast a “lure” for LO, not to him directly but to a group we are part of, to see if he would respond.
He saw it. He didn’t. And then, he did.
I just about exploded … not with happiness exactly, more like … I felt suddenly alive.
This is such a mess.
It is dangerous. I even catch myself typing things like, “simple friendship” as in my last post. This is completely false. It is not a simple at all. I create situations and conversations purposely that steer toward emotional content because I feel so comfortable talking to her. It feels so good. So I completely understand your “lure”.
Ah, rufio, I feel so foolish. Thank you for your understanding. Brothers-and-sisters in arms, eh.
He asked me out to a new lunch place. I said yes. Then I bailed. Then I said tomorrow. Then he said maybe. And I am now wondering how to bail tomorrow. Because I should. Am I the flaky one? Reminds me a bit of a picture of two Balinese dancers Dr L captioned once, something about bystanders watching in horror (anyone else agrees Dr L does the best captions ever?)
“It feels so good” – yes, IF I go to that lunch, I know the conversation will be good, meaningful, interesting. Followed by it feels so bad because after that we part ways. And, as you say, it is never enough. Boo.
Sigh, I noticed that a whole bunch of us are going through a hard patch after some holiday LC/NC. Withdrawal you think?
Yes! We are suffering from withdrawal symptoms and having relapses (or at least my luring was a relapse). The article is great and the comments quite good as we see others coping with what we are going through now. Bon courage!
https://livingwithlimerence.com/withdrawal-pains/
Writing that all out yesterday made me realize just how ridiculous I was being. I am going to put that relapse behind me, and am reinstating LC again. Let’s hope I last awhile …
By the way, I totally agree that texts are the worst.
Going through this too.
2 weeks of NC and it feels like hell.
For me it may be easier than avoiding somebody I work with. It “only” means not viewing LOs stories on IG and not posting stories myself… so that I don’t get frustrated when I view them and my LO doesn’t view mine.
I went some days/weeks without viewing the LO stories before, but I kept posting myself, and approx. 10 days into my silence the LO would show up again and view my stories a couple of days. And it meant me starting from scratch.
After reading the withdrawal pains article, I am thinking that maybe she did realise I was developing a crush and she enjoyed the extra attention. I keep thinking she may be a narcissist…
Well, no chance for her to show up in my IG stories again, so lower risk for me to relapse. (She never liked my posts so no risk there)
As a side effect, I am spending less time on IG and more time doing other things.
But still far from being over my LO…
lot’s of strength to you!! šŖ
I am trying to get myself busy and work on the purpose and start new things to keep myself from thinking about my LO but it is very hard.
I went NC on Xmas, meaning no viewing LO’s stories on IG anymore and almost no stories from my side to avoid checking non-stop if my LO viewed it… but it is killing me.
I am still thinking and thinking about what went south, it’s like I *need to* know why my LO suddenly didn’t talk to me, ignored me, looked another way. In my head it doesn’t make sense as the days before seemed just fine,and it is all I’d like to know. Driving me crazy.
To make it worse, my SO mentioned today maybe we should go to the spa hotel next month and that we could book training sessions with my LO… what should I say?
Besides that I don’t know what to do, I started thinking about the worst scenarios possible, that my LO will treat me like shit there, won’t talk to me, ignore me again or be rude etc.
But also that it may be the chance to ask what is wrong…and that maybe once I know LOs perspective I could finally move on…
Somehow have the feeling it will just make things worse on all levels … or is it just fear?
What would you do?
Thanks!
What would I do? Iām currently right in the middle of a LE withdrawal nightmare.
I would make an excuse, any excuse, not to encounter your LO in the way you have suggested.
I have not yet extracted myself from the nightmare but, sure as hell, I would try so hard to resist such a meeting.
Vikke, oh my, that is quite a situation! What would I do? Iām dumb enough to jump in that deep water. I would tell myself that I donāt let fear hold me back and I would book the event. I would be so curious to see how things played out. But I donāt think Iām the best person to ask. I really think youāre better off listening to some of the more cautious limerents. And better yet, listen to your instincts. You are the best person to make this decision. I disagree about your worst-case-scenario thoughts. To me, the worst case scenario is a receptive LO that you donāt resist and it turns into a PA or EA. But thatās just me.
What you are experiencing right now is uncertainty. It is a beast! It is the worst part of the limerent experience. It causes intrusive thoughts. What you are going through is normal and unpleasant. I like Limerent Emeritusā advice.
Good luck!
Hi thank you.
In my world/thoughts the scenario that my LO is receptive is non-existing. I ruled that out already, I see it as impossible. And I am also not trying to change that.
I just want to know why my LO was normal, nice, talkative, open one day and the total opposite the next day and further.
But yes, that would probably make things worse or as bad I suppose…
It is probably as simple as they had a bad day. It is so hard to remember that our LOās usually donāt see interactions with us even remotely like we see it from our side. I suffer the same thoughts though.
That makes sense, Vikke.
Rufio, I like how sensitive you are to the feelings of LO. I think you are right that we should give them the benefit of doubt and not jump to conclusions that one or two interactions have changed the relationship. Maybe they are having a bad day. So true!
I wanted to provide and update and explain how I survived the spa visit (yes, we did go in the end).
I had no contact (=no viewing or posting stories or likes or DM on IG) for almost 2 months. It was ok and felt better with time.
I was however nervous to see my LO, I was afraid she would not say hi or be rude, not nice…But I also felt that I was annoyed / angry.
First touch point was a personal training session, it was ok but I noticed my LO didn’t look at me or talk to me, but not in a rude way, more in an embarrassed/shy way. She even asked my partner what I had explained about the fair, I was like hello, ask me directly? Guess she didn’t want to see my annoyed disapproved look.
We did some jokes and talking but felt strange.
I had some treatments, in the first one she tried to talk to me (like we did before) and mentioned the 2nd fair (where she had totally ignored me), and asked how it was for me, I said a few words, she changed subject but I didn’t really feel like talking, so I didn’t ask anything, guess she noticed that and didn’t say a word again.
At the end, she mentioned that she looked forward to the upcoming treatments and that she would fix my back and all.
Due to a mistake in the reservation, it turned out we ended up with another therapist for one session, my LO found out and asked me if I had booked it like that on purpose, she seemed to be alarmed and disappointed but relieved when I said it was surely not meant like that (?).
She was extra nice and caring about my wellbeing, I guess she did realise something was off and was a bit sorry about what had happened. At least that is my take. On day 2 I decided not to hold a grudge anymore and move on.
During one of the personal trainings (this time just the 2 of us) she talked quite a lot and asked things, mentioned she thought I was fitter than in Sept, asked about my training plan etc and shared some personal things, I really tried to keep it casual and normal, but I think I was still feeling hurt and was more quiet than usual, quite my usual reaction when somebody hurts me, it takes a while to trust again… but I also noticed that while I still like her as a person, the magic kinda vanished.
I still think of her, but surely not in the intensity some months ago and it’s not driving me crazy. I accept she is so much NOT into me at all and I am just the patient and that’s it. And I am not freaking out at least. Been meditating A LOT and it helps.
So all in all, I think I can say I am on the way to “recovery”. Not out of it yet but getting there š I think.
That is great news, Vikke! The magic isnāt what it used to be. I am happy for you. Also, thanks for the meditation tip.
Vikke,
“But also that it may be the chance to ask what is wrongā¦and that maybe once I know LOs perspective I could finally move onā¦”
https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/
One of my EAP Counselor’s favorite questions was:
“What would you do with the knowledge if you had it?”
And, your answer is…?
thank you for this. Good question, what do I want really? or what would I do with the information?
Currently I want to know what went south and why my LO stopped talking to me / avoided me all of a sudden.
What did I do? Was it me at all? or something at LO’s end I have no control over?
If it was me, I guess a lot of further thinking, blaming and eventually learning, improve and closure.
If it wasn’t my fault, I guess closure and knowing that there isn’t anything totally wrong with me :O
….
I can’t seem to move on and accept the uncertainty as it is at the moment. Maybe because I never experienced something like this in my adulthood…
Since I rule out that my LO is absolutely not interested, I don’t see a danger that it remains uncertain, or mixed signals or alike in this respect.
It could happen that it was something I did/said and my LO gets totally pissed off to see me again, and doesn’t want to explain anything, then it remains a mystery.
It could happen that my LO acts normal and I have no chance to ask about what happened.
Otherwise I need to find a very good reason for NOT going to the spa:O
“If it was me, I guess a lot of further thinking, blaming and eventually learning, improve and closure.
If it wasnāt my fault, I guess closure and knowing that there isnāt anything totally wrong with me :O”
https://livingwithlimerence.com/closure-is-an-illusion/
This post has may have the most comments of any post on LwL. It’s a “must read” at some point.
thank you.
I guess in my case it is a mix of reasons mentioned.
For what I see now is that in any case, meeting the LO again in abt a month when I will probably be 6 weeks into NC is not a good idea for my mental health, as it can trigger it all again…
I just don’t know how to avoid going to the spa yet.
Going there and not booking her for a session from my side doesn’t help, as my SO may book a session and then I will just be wondering what they talked about. Telling my SO to avoid her too will be weird (what would be the reason??)…
And still going there without booking a session still bears the risk that the LO is around and we come across each other, she avoids me again and it all starts again…
So I guess we have to switch spa hotels, which is a bummer because we really like it there, have been going for years… at least until (let’s hope) the LO moves on to another job… sigh.
I am annoyed that this all happened š totally innecessary… (or not, if some growth and change to the better on my side comes out of it…)
Vikke,
Sometimes, there are no bad choices and sometimes there are no good ones.
In this situation, if you think you can keep it together at the spa, I’d say try to get through it. Trying to avoid it sounds like it might cause more problems than it solves.
In one respect, changing a venue you and your SO enjoy is letting the terrorist win. And, as you stated, you have no credible reason to propose it to your SO.
This place is called Living with Limerence. This is a time you might have to live with it and accept it might set you back some. It happens. It shouldn’t be fatal.
On the other hand, if you think being around your LO will compel you to do something you’ll regret, probably best to avoid it and accept those consequences.
There may not be an easy answer.
āA vision of a better future can give you the courage to confront difficult problems, and a sense of optimism that there is light beyond the present trials.ā -Dr. L
This is so definitely true. But I have a technical question.
(Btw the holiday break NC was terribly hard. I made it through, though. For those of us keeping each otherās company in withdrawal, I happened to hear this song on an old CD on the last day of the break. Hereās to intrusive thoughts: Night and Day https://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/de-lovely/nightandday.htm )
A couple of days before the break ended, I needed to see a way out of the status quo so badly that I actually sat down to write a list of things I wanted in a better future (the vision), however unreachable it seemed at present. It was like, okay, this is how Iām going to spend the money if I won the jackpot. From there, I laid out all the scenarios I could think of as hypothetical plans – some of which true nightmares if seen from the value system I grew up with.
However, this pen-and-paper exercise surprised me with something I had not been able to produce in my mind for years. It showed me some paths, albeit unproven, to a future that I could happily look forward to. It put a smile on my face, and itās not the kind of smile when I daydream about LO. It felt real. It felt mine. I felt confident.
This is huge, because, in the next two days, my conversations with SO miraculously returned to a tone with zero trace of underlying frustration. I truly felt I knew what I wanted and I could get there with my SO.
But, alas, it only lasted two days. Of course the third day was a workday, when I saw and talked to LO. All the āNight and Dayā came back like a tsunami, as if the holiday break, the NC , the vision, the upturn with my SO, none of these ever happened. Just like Bruno in Encanto (sorry I watched it five thousand times with my child) tossed the new vision green glass over his shoulder and sighed, āEvery time.ā, I lost steam on trying out any of the hypothetical paths I was finally able to see. Doing nothing and staying with the status quo just seems the easiest.
How to hold on to my hard-to-find optimism, when limerence takes over my mind and takes away my focus on finding a better future?
@Emma
“However, this pen-and-paper exercise surprised me with something I had not been able to produce in my mind for years. It showed me some paths, albeit unproven, to a future that I could happily look forward to. It put a smile on my face, and itās not the kind of smile when I daydream about LO. It felt real. It felt mine. I felt confident.”
You touched it. It’s there. I think it is a remarkably promising first step. It just takes time to replace one habit (limerence) with another (purpose). Keep going back to it!
Thank you, Limmy, for the encouragement.
“Lessons for Limerents”
https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-01-02
https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-01-03
https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-01-04
https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-01-05
And, one blast from the past: https://dilbert.com/strip/1993-08-08
I wonder if Scott Adams is on LwL?
I love Dilbert!
Boys, the woman in that last cartoon has no idea that she triggered the strange behavior. She is thinking, āHeās a little odd. Kind of reminds me of that other man at my last job. I hope he is okay.ā She will never know unless someone tells her. It took years for my coworkers to clue me in.
Let me tell you a story. One day my bossās teenage son came into my office unannounced and sat in the chair across from my desk. He said nothing. I stopped what I was doing and waited for him to tell me what brought him into my office. Silence. I tried to make small talk, he gave one word answers. The experience was strange. Later, I asked his dad about it and learned that I intimidated his boys so he and his wife decided to use me as a lesson for their boys. They encouraged them to talk to me and call me. It was a game for my boss and his wife. It amused them and they saw me as an opportunity to teach their boys how to talk to women. A little warning would have been nice.
The lesson isā¦ women do not know how they affect men. They usually arenāt doing it intentionally (though sometimes itās very intentional and she does know). But usually she doesnāt know.
The way I was around LO sometimes I can’t believe that she couldn’t see something was amiss with my behavior. Besides LO there has only been one other woman (back in my early 20’s) that was intimidating. And I don’t think I was limerent for her, she was just a very attractive woman and I guess that intimidated me when I was younger.
Now that I think about it, LO reminds me in many ways of this other woman. Except then we were both available unlike with LO. This other woman intimidated me because I was young and inexperienced. And LO intimidates me because of limerence. But I find it strange now thinking on it that these two women are so similar and both had the same effect on me.
I am an hour and 20 minutes from avoiding her altogether for the day. It would be the first time in a long time when we are both at work. Iām noticing that Iām feeling quite sad she hasnāt come by to speak. Of course it may be for the best but my mind is definitely doing circles wondering if she cares or not.
I know logically that she may care as much as any normal coworker would but it doesnāt stop these dumb emotions from making me feel like a nothing.
I’ve tried the cold shoulder, NC tactic at work and found it just makes me feel worse. My mood does better when I have some sort of interaction with her each day in person. I personally wouldn’t try to white knuckle that and just have a casual friendly conversation, even if brief.
Yeah, I made it the whole day but it definitely kind of back fired there at the end. My limerent brain just sat there and hoped she would walk the 20 yards over to my side of the building to say hi. It was less like a victory and more like brooding in my corner. She’s just a co-worker living her own life. I need to go back to treating her like I do all my other friends as we were 6 months ago before this whole LE kicked off. That was the reason we got on so well. Thank you!
I have been reading your blog all morning today. Before today I had never heard of limerence or being limerent. But thanks to your blog I no have a bunch of insight and information to face the fact that it is the condition I am over a woman outside of my marriage. I am now able to take this information and the sincerest apology to my wife tonight.
Though I haven’t had contact with this woman in over six months (she is a former co-worker) I still have the intrusive thoughts that are plaguing me and my marriage still.
And also many thanks to the readers whose comments I have read and can eerily relate too. I understand their plight and am motivated to make the changes I need to hearing that many have gotten through it themselves personally. It motivates me now to get past this LO and to prevent future LE.
Thank you all for what might very well save my marriage.
Welcome to the club, Adam! I am glad you found us. It sounds like you are going through rough times. I hope this new insight is helpful for you and your wife.
Best wishes.
Thank you for the welcome Lovisa. There is a lot of great information I keep reading, including reader’s personal experiences. I keep reading and see more and more of my behavior and attitude that I was ignoring or rationalizing to myself. Our marriage hasn’t been as good in the past as it has the last two years. But trying to use LO as an escape from the problems in my marriage …. well got me right here where I am.
It’s been over a year that this has been going on. And it needs to end for me. So I am very glad I stumbled across this blog. Now I just have to find the courage to talk to my wife. I’m very bad and sharing my feelings and confrontation. But I am going to make the best effort I can to do so.
Thank you again
Adam, you seem very brave. I hope it all goes well with talking with your wife, and this ultimately makes your marriage stronger.
If it is any help, I make the distinction: that limerence is a “natural” phenomenon for some of us, that just happens, outside of our control (especially the first time and before knowing what limerence is), but commitment to marriages (and monogamy) while they may not be as “natural”, are the true measure because they are within our control. To be determined and steadfast in your committed relationships in the light of limerence is like holding onto a lighthouse in the midst of a tsunami: incredibly difficult, but if you succeed, it is a massive achievement.
I wish you luck!
You are welcome, Adam. It sounds like you havenāt talked to your wife yet. Iām curious why you feel like you should talk to her about your limerence. I choose not to discuss limerence with my husband, but there are other commenters who disclose to their SOs. Let me clarify, I talk to my husband about my male friends, but I donāt tell him if I am attracted to a friend or if a friend disclosed attraction to me.
I talked to him about it once, it was with my LO1. That relationship had reached EA level and LO1 tried to persuade me to leave my husband. Disclosing to my husband hurt him more than it helped the situation. He still lives with that pain. And, unfortunately, my LO1 gained fame so we canāt avoid him completely. His name and artwork just pop up at random and thereās no getting away from him. It reopens the wound every time. And, as if that wasnāt enough, my daughter is a fan of LO1 and I had to somewhat disclose to her too so that she would quit talking about LO1 around my husband. It was easier when I carried the burden alone and my family just thought LO1 was a friend of our family. I had established good boundaries with LO1 and wasnāt in danger of slipping into another EA. Before disclosure I just had to suffer silently every time his name came up. Now my husband suffers. I really should have kept that burden to myself.
That is my experience with disclosure to SO. It may not be relevant to your situation. I do hope you will answer the question, why do you want to disclose to your wife? Iām not challenging you, Iām just curious.
Best wishes! I truly hope your marriage has brighter days ahead.
Lovisa, thank you for sharing your experience with disclosure to SO. I have wondered a lot about that. I tend to feel the same as in it would hurt and worry my SO more than any benefit that could come from just dealing with the discomfort myself, especially when boundaries have been set and there is no danger to getting involved (especially if there is no disclosure to LO either).
You are welcome, Limmy. I understand the conflicting feelings about disclosure to SO. I wasnāt going to do it, but an ecclesiastical leader told me I should disclose to SO. I wish I hadnāt because before disclosure, I suffered when LO1ās name came up. After disclosure and probably forever, my sweet husband suffers. I can see it on his face and I hate that I caused him pain.
You might consider reading this article.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/
These might help, too.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-not-to-disclose/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-to-disclose/
Good luck!
Per the advice of Speed I had a couple chats with my LO today instead of the cold shoulder. I made my mind up and took the approach to bring back the pre-limerence energy and talk to my LO as a true work friend again. It went really well. We laughed a lot and she told me about some of the stuff she is doing for wedding preparation this weekend.
As of a few hours later I donāt feel bad at all. I heard something yesterday that spoke of you bringing the energy you wanted to receive to the interactions in your life. Perhaps a bit woo woo but it made sense. If I simply want to enjoy her presence for the final two months with her I had to make the choice to do so.
Weāll see how I hold up but as an act of closure I started writing her a good bye card I plan to give her on her last day. There is no disclosure of my feelings outside of the purely plutonic āI think youāre an awesome person thanks for everythingā vibe just written more eloquently with our inside jokes. Iām hoping it can serve as some closure for me as well.
@Rufio,
I’m glad it was a good approach for you. So much of being limerent for a co-worker who you have to coexist with is trial and error. I found a while back that trying to be cold and all business like was just not in my nature and made me feel worse towards the end of the day. Then the next day I would come to work and over compensate by being too attentive. Just a good stable day in and day out approach works well for me where my LO and I enjoy little interactions.
Now, that being said, it seems I have woven a tangled web. I have found out in last couple weeks that two other employees have noticed the affection between myself and LO and talk is starting to happen. None of the things they are noticing are over the line issues, more just the way we talk to each other, the glances, time spent in my office having chit chat.
What complicates this is that one woman is a very dominant extrovert and very observant and also very insecure. My LO is fairly introverted but also confident. They have both worked for me for over 4 years and never really gotten along much interpersonally. Now that this woman has noticed she is acting somewhat cold and almost mean towards my LO and my LO wants to confront her. My LO is not aware that the issue is the mutual attraction between us that is being noticed.
Today I discussed it with my LO and I very much flirted with the edges of disclosure.
The whole thing now feels messy. I think it can still be smoothed over by me taking greater care to just act professional and equitable in my interactions with my LO and my other employees.
Oh wow. Im quite surprised this never happened to me. If we are in the same space me and my LO are always close and speaking. I wish I had some sound advice on how to handle the office situation. I like your last thought of just being professional. Any other course of action seems to have a much higher chance of deteriorating the situation faster.
I think people notice these things more than we think. Just by being with a particular person more than average attracts notice. Hard to avoid it in a confined workplace.
Speedy,
Stevie Wonder could have seen that coming.
What precisely did you discuss with your LO? What’s your electronic paper trail look like? I hope you’re not putting evidence on company equipment.
A lot of this is now out of your control. Your Observant Employee (OE) is holding the grenade but she may not know it.
If your LO confronts her, she might pull the pin. OE might just toss the grenade to your LO for poops and giggles.
At least one person is watching you. Assume she’s talking and everyone is watching you.
You’re in a minefield.
Yes, it’s a minefield.
The situation is complex with some layers dating back well before my LE. Let me try to explain as best as possible.
The OE is my most skilled employee. She takes on more responsibility than anyone else. But, she is also insecure and is constantly trying to show her worth to me and others. She is a dominant personality and is highly social. As such she tends to take to certain people and shut out others. Right now she has one other female bestie in the office and they have struck up a close friendship both inside and outside the office. The OE is also a fairly standoffish person with a wide personal space bubble. My relationship with her is pretty matter of fact, work oriented.
My LO is opposite in a lot of ways. She is less skilled but good at her level. Where my OE is more autonomous in her work, my LO likes more guidance. My LO is warmer, friendlier, and sees me as a mentor. My LO is also more objectively beautiful than OE, though OE is not unattractive. These are the things that led to my LE.
Well before the LE, the OE did not like LO. Just conflicting personalities and life stages. They don’t have to work together so not an issue. Everyone stayed in their lane. But there were some moments of friction. OE thinks LO is too needy of my attention.
Fast forward now with OE seeing the greater amount of affection and attraction between me and LO and she feels less valuable and in competition with LO.
The solution her is equitable professional attention and not to broadcast my attraction in the way I interact with LO. Up to this point it’s mild, but becoming noticeable both on mine and my LOs part.
There is no paper trail. No emails. This is all just face to face interactions and personal texting (which is a paper trail, just not on company equipment)
It’s a minefield, but I will keep an eye out with great diligence for each new mine.
Oh…and I did say to LO, who is distraught over OE and has come to me about it, that “she probably feels threatened by our closer, more affectionate relationship”. That felt like edges of disclosure to me.
Need to stop digging hole.
Speedwagon, the hole just got deeper. I see why you said it, but yikes. Hopefully the words didnāt register in her mind in their literal sense. Try to avoid the word āaffectionā in the future. I think ācloserā is an okay way to describe your relationship. It can have innocent meaning.
Speedy,
“Ohā¦and I did say to LO, who is distraught over OE and has come to me about it, that āshe probably feels threatened by our closer, more affectionate relationshipā. That felt like edges of disclosure to me.”
It is disclosure. If your LO was an unwitting LO before, she’s a complicit LO now. You better hope she doesn’t become a hostile LO. You made the statement and there’s another employee to back your behavior. Even if you escape professional consequences, you reinforced the attachment. That may come back to haunt you.
You don’t see mines and you get rid of mines in two ways. You sweep them or you detonate them. You really can’t sweep these. That’s what makes them so dangerous. You set a course that gets you out and hope you don’t hit one.
āā¦two other employees have noticed the affection between myself and LO and talk is starting to happen.
What complicates this is that one woman is a very dominant extrovert and very observant and also very insecure. My LO is fairly introverted but also confident.ā
That is a recipe for disaster! Is there a special project that can occupy the other employeeās time and focus? Maybe something she could find purpose in? Maybe something that could help her shine so she is less insecure? Can you tactfully distract her? Can you find reasons to praise her to boost her confidence?
The OE is starting a fairly large project that will occupy her. That will help. Also, as good timing would have it, she was up for a review and I did give her high praise and a boost in compensation. She walked away pleased.
I don’t want to paint the picture that everyone is at their desk stewing and ready to explode. That is not the case. But I do need to take great care not to broadcast my affection for my LO and provide equitable attention because the OE views this as favortism and it triggers her insecurity and she questions her worth.
Rufio, I love that you brought positive energy back to the relationship. Thank you for stopping the cold behavior towards LO. I think itās important that we remember most of our LOs did nothing wrong. They are innocent bystanders of what is happening in our minds. They didnāt actually cause the limerence, we cause it with our reveries.
I really hope it lasts. It is 24 hours later and I still feel pretty good about everything. It is like a light came on in my mind. She was speaking of her fiance and telling me about her wedding planning and was so happy. I just realized I’m not a part of her outside life. I can however be someone she will always remembers she worked with.
I feel silly as a grown man but also writing her good bye note yesterday(two months early) got me really emotional but felt like a closing of a door.
Also, a huge thanks to this website. It is incredibly cathartic to share these feelings and thoughts somewhere and receive feedback and support. It has helped me tremendously. I know Dr. L said something about users opening a new forum. I would love to stick around and help people.
Rufio, your positive attitude and kindness is helpful. I hope you stick around, too.
Iām glad it is going well with your LO. Hopefully you can stay positive for the next few months and enjoy the time you have left with her.
A little related but somewhat OT humor for a Sunday morning…
Most offices have one, or more, busybodies (BB.) People know who they are. A BB can range from ruthlessly competent to bewilderingly clueless, from benign to “watch-your-back” dangerous. Most of the ones I’ve encountered are on the left end of the scale. The benign ones can be fun to mess with. As a boss, you have to keep your eye on them so they don’t impact the operation.
True story:
One day the branch BB saw me talking to the boss. He came into my cube and asked why. It was none of his business. But, in a moment of inspiration, the Muse struck me and I told him that I’d been appointed the Branch Sycophant (BS). It was obvious he didn’t know the definition of the word. I told him that if I did a really good job, I could get promoted to Division Sycophant, and maybe even Department Sycophant. I told him the positions didn’t pay more but they were high profile and everybody would know who you were. That last part would have been true.
He said that he hadn’t heard about the opportunity and it should be open to everyone. Honestly, he said that. I told him that he was right and he should take it up with the boss and maybe the union. The conversation took place outside another co-worker’s cube. After the BB left, he came out laughing and just shook his head. The guy said the BB would be a great sycophant.
A short time later, I got a call from the boss telling me to come to his office. He asked me if I’d said those things to the BB. I admitted it. The boss told me, “Damn it! Knock that S–t off!” [Phrases I’ve heard multiple times in my career.] My response was how did I know the BB didn’t know what “sycophant” meant. I told the boss that what was scarier, was the BB went to him before he looked up what it meant.
That BB was dangerous.
Limmy/Lovsia,
Being that my wife has bipolar means she at least understands the “natural” part of the limerance whether she understands it as affront to her or not. Most of the discussion came of why I think thoughts of LO other than her. Her response to my confession was much more emotional even with her understanding it was out of my scope of choice.
As far as brave not so much. For over a year my wife has been convinced LO and I have been having a PA so disclosing limerance is just something that needed to be said. I actually have no desire to. LO is with a man that takes very good care of her after a very nasty divorce. Granted my wife was very understanding of limerence but not very kind to the thoughts that I have of LO. Additionally if my wife is being truthful LO has been on my mind enough that I speak her name repeatedly in my sleep so it just needed to be addressed.
This has been the only woman that has done this to me and i don’t know why. My thoughts are a lot of the time on her. And I don’t understand why. The guilt is heavy. And the problems we’ve had long before LO are what we argued big time last night.
I hate myself that if LO contacted me I’d be in ecstasy. I’m (for my fellow gamer readers) am miserable pile of secrets.
Adam, thank you for sharing. I see why it was important to open up to your wife.
Iām sorry you are in the āI hate myselfā phase. It sounds like you are experiencing shame. Shame isnāt helpful. Shame can exacerbate the problem. If you can flip that shame to āguiltā or even better āacceptance,ā youāll have more control over your limerence. The limerence doesnāt define you, itās just a problem you are experiencing. When it is over you might even recognize growth that you wouldnāt have experienced without limerence.
By the way, your attitude towards your LO is unselfish. You appear to genuinely want what is best for her even if it means pain for you. What I mean by that is that you donāt want to disrupt her current relationship because you recognize that her SO is good to her. Very cool. You seem concerned about your wifeās feelings, too. That is awesome! It says something about your character.
Good luck to you both!
Lovisa said it all perfectly. You are a good guy, Adam, don’t beat yourself too hard over this.
The part I can relate to is “I hate myself that if LO contacted me Iād be in ecstasy.” While hate is perhaps too strong a word and one I personally avoid, this is the part I dislike the most about limerence. I don’t like being at anyone’s beck and call. It is giving away your personal power.
Update post…everything blew up on me today and I had full disclosure with my LO. I won’t give the background of why that came to be today, I came into the day not knowing I would do this, but there are some factors that I felt made it necessary.
She was becoming aware that a few others in the office were insinuating some type of relationship between us and asked me about it. To be clear, nothing has happened between us, other than some off work hours chit chat texting sessions. But at this point I don’t want the talk to continue and I don’t want to keep compromising this woman and have her assuming a bunch of stuff so basically I disclosed that I had developed feelings for her and other people were catching the vibe. I framed it in a mild way…I did not get into Limerence and love or any talk like that. Just feelings of affection and a desire to build a more personal relationship.
What amazed me is she was clueless about all this. Absolutely clueless. She thought everything that had gone on between us, the texting, the long in person talks, the eye gazing, the looks, a few phone calls, were all normal friendship based. She even said that her husband knew we were texting when it was happening and we were texting for 2-3 hours and many times the texting was initiated by her. I was blown away by this? How could she be so naive?
Also, she made it clear she never had feelings for me other than friendship. I feel like an idiot for completely misinterpreting her cues. It amazes me because her body language towards me was so positive all the time and she initiated a lot of the off work communication.
At the end of it she understood, but was shocked. She felt guilty that she led me on.
I took 100% of the blame. I told her I want to just move past all this and get everything back on a good professional relationship. Obviously this kind of thing is not an everyday occurrence and it will take some time for her to process. I hope she processes it well. It is out of my hands now completely.
As for my limerence, I am hoping this is truly the death of hope and I can get on with purposeful living. I am spent emotionally now.
Oh wow, reading this I could almost feel your shock. I am and I am not surprised to be honest. My LO told me a past story of how she hung out with a guy over the course of a few weeks doing various activities and then was shocked when he asked her out.(we were speaking of flirting) I remember at the time laughing with her but thinking in my head “OF COURSE HE LIKED YOU”.
It can also attest to the power limerence and seeing the things we want to see. I know you and I have shared stories back and forth about “signs” and eye contact. However, the further removed I get from mine and see my LO in a normal light the more I see she is simply being very friendly because she is comfortable with me.
I hope it is the end for your Speed. I still have moments of struggle but the weight seems to have come off me quite a bit and boy does it feel great. I have even had comments at the office about how I seem in such a good mood again after a few months of despair. I hope you feel this weight lifted as well my friend and that everything in your office works out!
It was a crazy scenario and part of me feels a weight lifted and part of me feels like this is only the end of round one and round two of whatever craziness is about to start.
What gets me scratching my head are a couple things.
One, what started my limerence for her after 3 plus years of not feeling anything is sensing her attraction to me. If she truly had none where did that come from? Is the universe that cruel? Maybe.
Two, how in the world did she have no idea I had feelings for her? I was not subtle on many occasions.
Three, how in the world did she think it was normal to be texting me every couple minutes for a few hours straight on a Sunday right in front of her husband. And how was her husband OK with that?
My mind right now is racing, it’s all very surreal.
She cried a bit during the talk, I think it was just overwhelming. But she was in my office a few hours later and she seemed OK and we kinda joked about it. So hopefully no damage done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Ia83p6rA4
Well, Speedy, the only question that I can really weigh in on is #2. When I disclosed to LO #4, her response was, “Wow! I had no idea. I’m flattered and under different circumstances, might even be curious. But, circumstances are what they are.”
I’m not surprised that she wasn’t attracted to me but it surprised me that I took her by surprise. I thought I was leaking like a sieve. One of the other moderators on her website thought there was something between LO #4 and me.
What that said was LO #4’s attention wasn’t on me.
Did you read this? https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-not-to-disclose/
Yes, I have read that blog about 10X. I was dead set against disclosure until other people got involved. At that point I felt I needed to control the narrative with LO.
I believe the next week is critical and I will give her wide berth. She will go through a series of emotions I am guessing. At best she is flattered and hopes to just maintain a friendship and good working relationship. At worst, she quits because she feels her professional relationship with me is now compromised.
As for your first question…
In over now 30 years of marriage, only one woman has ever gotten inside my head. LO #4.
It took several years to fully develop. I escaped without significant consequences but I was operating under nearly ideal conditions. I didn’t like how she did some things but I thought she always acted in good faith.
She was the right woman in the right place at the right time. All LO #4 did was provide me the opportunity to go off the rails. I didn’t have to go down that track but I did.
Hopefully, things will work out.
I recently read something that says men tend to overestimate interest in women’s body language and behaviors, whereas women tend to underestimate a man’s interest.
Also, some people really are more clueless than average. If people in the office were picking up on it and she wasn’t, she might just be a little insensitive about these things. Or she underestimated the interest. Or is in denial (because she is married). Or perhaps wanted to enjoy the flirtation, and did not want to acknowledge it because of her own guilt. Or has poor self-esteem and did not think anyone could be attracted to a married woman like her. Or thought her marriage made her immune. Or she’s lying and she knew but claims not to. Or a bit of all of the above.
I know myself, that although I suspected my LO was interested in me, I knew I felt great around him, but sort of dismissed it till a good friend confronted me and observed to me that she thought he was. When there is no more plausible deniability, then the LE moves into a different (and less pleasant) stage.
Speedwagon, Limmy has some good answers for you, too. Iāll try to answer your questions. Thanks for sharing your experience. I hope this helps.
āOne, what started my limerence for her after 3 plus years of not feeling anything is sensing her attraction to me. If she truly had none where did that come from? Is the universe that cruel?ā
She is attracted to you just not the way you thought. She likes you. The alluring signals are meant to draw you close because she likes to be close to you. She never meant to lead you on. The closeness she wants is friendship.
āTwo, how in the world did she have no idea I had feelings for her? I was not subtle on many occasions.ā
She read your signals as friendship, too. Also, just a guess, she thinks that since you are both married, she can let her guard down. After all marriage is sacred right? Speedwagon doesnāt want to violate his vows either so the sexual boundaries are well established. She doesnāt even have to worry about that. Itās so refreshing to feel safe around your friends. LO could let her guard down and just enjoy you because you are both committed to your marriages. Or so she thought.
āThree, how in the world did she think it was normal to be texting me every couple minutes for a few hours straight on a Sunday right in front of her husband. And how was her husband OK with that?ā
She was having fun with her friend. Her husband sensed that it meant nothing to her. He likes to see his wife happy. Her boss seems like a good person. Itās probably nothing to worry about. Hereās an eye opener for you. Iāve had similar texting experiences with my male friends and my husband is right next to me. Sometimes I tell him what weāre texting and he puts his two cents in. Sometimes I tell my friend it came from my husband sometimes I donāt.
āMy mind right now is racing, itās all very surreal.ā
That makes sense. You will get through this. Itās hard now, but I suspect you cured your limerence.
āShe cried a bit during the talk, I think it was just overwhelming.ā
Of course she cried. She feels terrible and confused.
āBut she was in my office a few hours later and she seemed OK and we kinda joked about it. So hopefully no damage done.ā
That is a very good sign.
Good luck, Speedwagon! Iām looking forward to the next update.
Next update. Today was a very good day. I was able to manufacture a work outing with LO that took about 1.5 hours. A lot of time to talk freely after yesterday.
The vibe between us was good. She is not creeped out by me which was a worry I had. Our communication seemed all the same. She did not shy away from me one bit. She did have some more specific questions about the attraction to her and I answered them openly and honestly. Again, I did not get into Limerence, talk about creeping someone out, but just kept it framed as a desire to know her more personally and build a relationship with her. The physical attraction part was all implied of course.
She seemed to understand this and admitted she liked our relationship too.
It is apparent that she does value my friendship and she admitted to feeling like I was a role model in her life. She told me she also doesn’t ever text any other men, just me. But, it is also apparent she views marriage as very sacred (which it is) and is not in the same head/heart space to blur those lines with me from a romantic perspective. I think I’m glad for that…because I have had that eraser in my hand for months.
We parted the day on very good terms and I feel encouraged. But I’m not stupid and there is still pitfalls ahead I need to be diligent about. My biggest fear now is she will tell her husband and he will ask her to quit. I asked her not to tell him, but this is out of my control ultimately.
Speedwagon, you did it! Maybe disclosure can be a good thing. I remain solid on the DO NOT DISCLOSE team, but it sounds like you might be on the other side. I am really happy this is working out for you and LO. That is good news!
Here is my latest update with LO3. Remember he is the one who disclosed to me. Yesterday he told me that he intends to be more distant in our conversations going forward. He said that he noticed himself using our correspondence as an escape from his family problems. He intends to focus on being a better husband and father and that means reducing contact with me. I support him fully. I want him to have a strong family. As I am typing this, he is reaching out to me. He also reached out twice last night. Itās very nice, but maybe a little confusing, too. I intend to follow his lead where contact is concerned. If itās just ālikesā Iāll reciprocate. If itās ācommentsā Iāll reciprocate. If itās texts, I will be warm and engaging. But I intend to let him initiate. Am I on track?
Can you answer something for me, too? LO3 knows I am not a threat to his marriage. He even thanked me for having good boundaries. He said that I strengthen him, he feels uplifted and like he is enough when he talks to me. I guess I donāt understand why I am a problem if I am uplifting. I guess itās a distraction issue. Does that make sense? Can you tell me why he intends to be distant?
Iām seriously so happy for you, Speedwagon!
Well, it’s really a bit too early to tell if it’s a good thing. I am hoping so for my specific situation. Today was good. I will keep you updated on it. But thank you for being a supporter.
As for your LO, yes, I believe it is good to let him initiate and set the frequency and quality of communication. But what worries me is that he seems very conflicted. Like he wants to pursue you romantically but knows you have boundaries. Some days he wants to test those boundaries and others he withdraws as guilt or disappointment set in.
Since you both seem to have good communication, you might just ask him what it is he *really* wants. If he is being honest, it might be something unexpected that you both need to deal with to properly move forward.
That helps, thanks! I will try to be brave and ask him what he wants if the opportunity presents itself. In the meantime, Iāll let him lead our communication habits. I really appreciate your perspective, thank you.
Please do keep us informed. It has been interesting watching your story unfold. You are so brave to share it in real time.
Ok, Speedy, you survived the first mine.
Now, some more things to ponder…
“LO” is a title. It’s not a position. So, what place do you plan for LO to have in your life? Seriously?
I’ll ask you the same questions my EAP counselor asked me after LO #4 began to confide in me and I saw a giant snowball coming down the hill at me.
1. “Does your wife know about this?” – My response was my wife knew of my acquaintance with LO #4 but not that I’d become her confidante.
2. “So, you’re hiding this relationship from your wife?” – My response was that LO #4 was 2500 miles away and we’d never actually met. We weren’t in a relationship. The EAP counselor glanced at the emails and said, “Oh, yes, you are.”
3. “Are you willing to sacrifice your marriage and family for this woman?” – My answer was, “No.”
The EAP counselor said, “Then the answer is simple. Get away from her and stay away from her. Stay involved with this woman and it will not end well for you.”
By disclosing, you’ve laid the groundwork for things to continue. Every list of indicators of an Emotional Affair cite hiding communications and the nature of the relationship from your SO.
One thing I’ve observed from my years on LwL is that we often think we want our LOs in our lives but, if we’re attached and want to stay that way, we have no place to put them.
YMMV
āā¦ she is simply being very friendly because she is comfortable with me.ā
Yes! You get it, Rufio. And you are so nice and considerate that I bet it is enough for you. She is a lucky girl if you are willing to accept her as a friend.
@Limmy
None of that stuff about what men and women notice or donāt surprises me. Iāve seemingly had it confirmed multiple times. I believe that people believe what they want to believe as you were saying.
Iām of the mindset that if a guy is spending a lot of time with you, asking you questions, trying to make you laugh etc. they are at some level interested.
Lovsia/Limmy,
Thank you for the kind words. It use to be so much easier when I hadn’t disclosed to my wife but as I mentioned it was going to come out in one way or another, so doing it by my choice was probably better.
I can sometimes just see the look as I walk past my wife or look up at her and wonder if she is wondering who I am thinking about. Sometimes there is a lot of pain in her eyes and it’s because of me.
And then in the next minute I am washing dishes and a song comes on my playlist that reminds me of LO, and again I am thinking about her. I’ve talked to her once since she left work back in June. And that was her calling me from the office that she use to work in. I work at a different office but the same company. She and her gentleman friend and her two daughters are doing well. They’re becoming a family. And I am so happy for them and their joy. But god I miss her.
Oh Adam, that is so hard. If you feel comfortable sharingā¦how and what did you tell your wife? Please only share what you feel comfortable sharing.
You have a heavy burden on your shoulders and your reaction makes sense. I know this isnāt popular to say, but I will be praying for you and your wife today. I will also try to put myself in her shoes to see if I can offer you some insight. I am so sorry you are going through this.
In the meantime, can you do something fun? Can you do something for yourself that will lift your spirits? Your brain has been building pleasure neural pathways with thoughts of your LO. Can you start building some new pleasure pathways with something healthy? I use running. I also like high adrenaline stuff like cryotherapy. Anything outdoors feels good to me. Maybe a hike? I donāt know what you like, but please do something for yourself. I know it can feel selfish to do something for yourself, but boosting your mood benefits everyone in your life. When you both are ready, I hope you can do something fun with Mrs. Adam.
Hang in there. The limerence really can get better.
I basically just tried my best to explain what limerence is and how it effects my thoughts and behavior. I assured her none of the thoughts of LO were of a sexual or romantic nature. I just enjoyed her company and liked talking to her. I had left some of the articles with her I printed out at work. Especially the ones that Dr L wrote for the spouse of a limerent. I didn’t want to over explain and I didn’t want to sound cavalier either. I told if she wanted to read any of the articles she could and if she had any questions to ask.
I unlike Jason M ever had contact with LO outside of work. She had texted and called me a few times about work and I saved her phone number. I only found out months later that it was not a company phone and that it was her personal phone. So since she has left I have not called or texted her. She knows how to reach me so I leave it up to her. I don’t want to unnecessarily disrupt her new life.
This past Saturday night we talked and that quickly turned into an argument where both sunk our claws deep in each other. Me because I know I don’t voice when I am upset or hurt by something or afraid something that might hurt her feelings. So on my part I was letting a lot of resentment out which isn’t fair to her. I hope to approach her again. Maybe I can get her out of the house and have a date night together and talk again.
I have been play an online game with my boys here since around Christmas time, mostly, a couple hours each night before dinner. And that has really helped me distract from LO. Granted she still comes to mind from day to day but it helps. Sometimes on the weekends I go out and take a walk, since by the time I get home with daylight savings its dark by the time I get home.
I really appreciate you and Linny’s words and advice. It has really helped me immensely. Also I have found it therapeutic to try to remember to speak of her as LO instead of by her name. It makes me feel a bit more distanced. Which I need to do. Equal the mental distance with the physical distance.
Thank you again
Adam, Iām sorry, I donāt understand why that was hurtful to your wife. To me, you addressed limerence very well. It sounds like there are many other issues and that was just one of them. I am so relieved that you didnāt disclose to your wife that you are attracted to LO.
Have you heard of Marriage Helper? They have many free videos on YouTube. I wonder if you would benefit from learning about PIES and the love path.
It sounds like you are committed to strengthening your marriage. It also sounds like you genuinely care about your wifeās feelings. Those are two huge strengths!
You mentioned your boys. Iām assuming those are your kids? I would encourage you to read to them or help them with their responsibilities like homework or housework. I love to see my husband being a great dad. It makes me so happy. I think thatās universal for all women. Just a suggestion.
And, maybe while the tension is high, set the problems aside and just have fun with Mrs. Adam. Again, just a suggestion.
Hi everyone, as of a week ago I had never heard of “limerence” let alone that there was a whole ad hoc community dedicated to helping each other out for it. For the last few days, Iāve read as many of the articles on this site that I could, including much of the comments, where most of the healing seems to take place. Iāve debated whether to write in since itās not something I usually do, but if it’s okay, I’d like to share my version of the story, even though it’s much the same as others’ I’ve read here. Iāll try to get the lingo right and apologies ahead of time that this is so long.
I am currently in an LE with a co-worker for about the last, oh, probably 8 months. We met only just a year ago at a company lunch. I had just relocated to a new state and through a bit of a glitch in the HR system, she showed up as reporting to me on our company personnel database. I thought she was attractive, but soon discovered she was married with two kids, which I thought of as a bit of a bummer if Iām honest, but she was very outgoing and friendly with me. That was probably the start of the glimmer. And before going any further, I must note that I am married with a family myself and I was probably vulnerable to LE because I check a lot of the limerence boxes, getting on in married years, the spark is long gone, feel like a drifter and this seemed like a fun distraction.
We were on sister teams so we didnāt work together on a day-to-day basis, but were in some of the same meetings each week. However, soon after, she reached out to me on our internal company messaging app about some work-related questions, which I happily answered. There were some more interactions of this nature, but quickly I found myself thinking of reasons to reach out to her and soon we had some inside jokes and a good friendship going. At this point, all of this communication was just during work hours, even though not strictly about work. Imagine a time lapse here of this going on for the next four months or so, filling a novelās worth of communication. Keep in mind that this is all it is at this point, but Iām already well on my way in terms of LE. Iād constantly check to see if LO was online and even go so far as to check her meeting schedule to see when she was not in a meeting and thus more likely to respond.
Eventually I found an excuse to text her company phone with a work-related question. I didnāt get a response, so I followed up the next work day on the company messaging app and she said she doesnāt really check that phone and then gave me her personal number. I couldnāt believe it. And when I texted her from my personal phone so she could have my number too, her enthusiastic response sealed the LE deal. It was like what a hit of crack must feel like. Texting became my LE drug of choice. Any response from LO just fueled the flames, and I began obsessing over what I could say to get reciprocation. I lived for those times when sheād send a heart reaction. Iād often stare at those just imagining what LO meant and trying to read between the lines. We started scheduling 1 on 1 lunches about every other week. Most everything was initiated by me and with my insistence, but LO seemed to be game and didnāt mind how much I texted or some of the near disclosure comments Iād say. In fact, a couple of times LO told me I was never a bother.
Needless to say, I couldnāt think of anything else. Iād ruminate long into the night and often wake up and not be able to go back to sleep because my brain would start trying to figure out what else I could do or say next, what possible situations I could somehow orchestrate so weād get to spend time together. I remember Dr. L saying something along the lines of āIf we could just come up with the right combination of words and actions to make them feel the same towards us.ā That was my days and nights. I literally could not think of anything else, so much so that it was affecting work and home life. I couldnāt focus on work and I was moody and irritable at home, especially if I didnāt get my hit of reciprocation from LO.
My obsession came to a head just a couple of weeks ago and was the beginning of what led me here. Christmas holiday was about to start and I was going to be on vacation the last two weeks of the year, but I desperately wanted to see LO while I was on break, especially since my birthday falls within that time to use an excuse to meet, so I managed to get her to schedule a lunch to celebrate my birthday. There were so many reasons that this was perfect in my mind. My birthday was the day before we were scheduled to have lunch but well into the afternoon, I hadnāt heard from her, let alone a Happy Birthday. I finally reached out to confirm plans for lunch, at which point she remembered it was my birthday, but followed up immediately by saying she couldnāt do lunch after all with what I thought was a lame excuse. To say it was a letdown is the understatement of the century. My mood instantly crashed and I felt like I was on the verge of depression. I was numb. I tried to salvage some feeling by once again texting and hoping for a kind word and there was some during New Yearās Eve and even wished Happy New Year past midnight and got a nice response. However, it wasnāt enough for how down I was feeling.
Then come last week, it was my first day back to work after holiday and I was miserable and could not focus on anything else. I literally searched to know if I had low self-esteem because I figured only a loser like me would be uncontrollably obsessed with someone else like this. Finally, I just searched āWhy am I obsessed with someone?ā and the first result was Dr Lās article: https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-do-i-become-obsessed-with-certain-people/. This was the diagnosis I didnāt know I desperately needed. This knowledge was a detonation of the holy hand grenade in that part of my brain where limerence lives. Suddenly it had a name and a community, and just like that, it was like the fever broke in the night and I awoke a new person free from the obsessive pain. I couldn’t believe there were so many others who were going through exactly what I was and that has made all the difference. I felt a new sense of empowerment over this LE, that I could take back control. I resolved to begin NC and a staged withdrawal ā no more initiating communication, either at work or texting outside of work, no more going by her desk to chat. I figured I wouldnāt hear from LO anyway since I was the driving force behind it. In my more sober moments, Iād think about consequences like if this really went the way I wanted. Was I willing to have a PA? To destroy everything I have in life? Would I really want to destroy LOās family? But I would usually quickly push those thoughts away.
This is already way too long, but so far itās been working pretty well. I still think of LO a lot but not in an obsessive way. Iām not sure this even reached the level of EA, let alone PA, although there was a part of me that desperately wished for it. But Iāve been sleeping way better and feel a lot more productive at work and home. My mood has improved tremendously. LO did reach out about rescheduling lunch, and part of me feels bad for accepting, but also a win because I was chill about it and Iām not holding my breath that itāll actually happen and will not push it. I also did get a text from LO over the weekend with one of our inside jokes, but replied in a very limited way. It was really hard not to over-respond like I usually would and felt kinda crappy about it, but I have since decided to follow some of the advice Iāve seen in the comments about simply being a normal friend. Itās not in my nature to just ghost someone and I will not act in a vengeful way nor treat someone in the same way I feel I was treated. As has been noted, LO likely has no idea of the effect sheās had on me since itās all been manufactured in my head. I now realize that she is just friendly who had no ill intent. Iām taking a lot of advice from here in terms of disclosure since like others it would come as a surprise most likely. And as of now, donāt plan to discuss with SO so this can all just dissolve away quietly. I hope I can continue recovering from this particular LE and now feel confident I can take steps to prevent it from happening again. Iām also hyper-aware of how I communicate with others as I donāt want to give the cause someone else to go into LE because I thoughtlessly gave the impression that Iām interested (I hope that makes sense). I thank all of you for your inspirational support through previous comments, even though you had no idea it was helping a stranger like me. I hope I can give back to this community in the same way I have been helped.
Welcome to LwL!
This place is like a beacon on hill. It’s a great place for getting past the profound sense of isolation and accompanying self-loathing that limerents often carry.
You only see ~10% of any iceberg. For every limerent here, there are 9 who aren’t.
DrL has given us a marvelous resource.
Welcome Jason M! Thank you for sharing your story. It is fairly typical. I suspect you are in the āgood days and bad daysā stage. Hang in there. Better times are ahead. It sounds like you have already learned a lot from the site. That is good news! May I suggest that you come here when you are tempted to reach out to your LO.
FYI, I am on team Never Disclose! Iāve disclosed to two LOs, once on accident and once when I addressed the elephant in the room. Both disclosures were a disaster! I disclosed once to my SO and now it is a pain that he has to live with. My current LO disclosed to me. That actually seems to be working out, but I still donāt recommend it. I mean what are the odds that you would disclose to a fellow limerent? I do my best to make his experience pleasant which I think is working. He does the same for me and I am grateful.
If you decide to disclose to SO or LO, please read the articles about disclosure first.
Best wishes!
Your story sounds similar to mine in the co-worker space. Glad you are doing better and you seem to be on the right path!
Being a normal friend again is tough but so far it has worked most of the time for me. There are days when I still feel down or kinda high depending on the interaction with LO. We simply have to keep it between the lines, so to speak.
I like to remind myself that many of my LOās actions have nothing to do with me and if someone liked you romantically they wouldnāt act like that.
Example: Yesterday was great, I made her laugh a bunch, we had great convo and she went out of her way to wave at me and smile playfully as I was leaving for the day. Felt incredible the rest of the day. Today she was a bit annoyed with office stuff and we only chatted about work. I offered to help her, even give up some of my, lunch time, but she didnāt seem interested. it hurts but it is my problem because she isnāt thinking in terms of spending time with me. I am.
Rufio, you are doing great! You made her laugh and didnāt get too high off it. You also recognized that she needed some space to be grumpy LO and you gifted her some space. You are an awesome friend.
Lovisa,
Your comments always make me feel good. I would like to thank YOU for being a good forum friend!
Aww, that is so sweet Rufio! I feel the same about your comments. You are very welcome.
Jason, this place is great of information and advice. I just no myself, like you, recently discovered what limerence is after over almost two years knowing LO. And the glimmer happened around 6 months or so after meeting her.
I have only been here since the past Friday and I am already feeling better about how to get through this. The readers here are amazing helpful and understanding. And there is people in all stages of limerence so you can probably give to the community just as much as they give to you.
Thank you all for the words of encouragement, I definitely need it at the moment since I heard some news today at work that directly affects LO and I’m fighting a powerful urge to reach out because I know it’s a convenient opportunity to be a support and get that interaction fix. But that’s all it is, a temporary high that will fade and leave me worse off. Plus, I need to remind myself that LO needs to focus and doesn’t need me to be a distraction. At least it helps to try to think in terms of what a regular friend would do or say and put myself in her shoes by thinking, with the news she received, would I want someone bugging me about it? Probably not.
Stay strong. All my comments, while I love helping others, are also reminders to myself. It doesn’t go away in a no time flat for most of us. The worst is when your whole body protests. I failed at least twice today not to go into the same room as LO and continue a conversation. Intrusive thoughts all the while, “why didn’t she stay and talk” “why didn’t she invite me to help her”. I know I can’t be with her but now I feel like I’m not a good enough friend. Limerence is a slippery beast, finding new corners to hide in.
Hell, I even rationalize my rationalizing, “even if she does like me she just hides it because she is protecting her engagement”. We are going to be ok though my friend!
ā even if she does like me she just hides it because she is protecting her engagementā.
Thatās not true, Rufio. That is a limerent lie. She is not hiding anything. She does like you a lot, but not romantically. Speedwagon brought that type of situation into focus for us this week. Donāt listen to that lie. Listen to the part of you that can make her laugh. She is almost gone. Enjoy the last few weeks if you can.
Welcome. Glad you found this place. My story is much the same. Middle aged, 14 year younger LO who caught my eye at the office. 10 months of agony and yesterday the cat was let out of bag and I disclosed. You can read much of the story on this blog and in the rescue fantasy blog.
I have found that getting yourself into a routine of interaction that you can count on helps the cause. For me that was no texting but some face to face personal interaction each day. For a long time this is how I operated with decent success.
The last three weeks though, it all blew up and now my LO knows. Thank goodness she is not creeped out and she wants to maintain a good relationship with me. We were able to joke about it today and maintain a comfortable vibe with one another.
For me, having disclosure was a big weight lifted, but now I still need to be diligent about not sparking the limerence fire still and maintain some boundaries. But having the uncertainty of her feelings gone…huge relief.
Iāve been through a lot of the limerent pain over the past three years and perhaps I have wallowed in it from time to time.
This website, and itās wise author, have been very helpful.
Reading some of the very long and detailed, presumably cathartic, comments I would say this:
GO NO CONTACT!
GO NO CONTACT if you possibly can. Diminish each thread of contact, personal interaction, WhatsApp, text messages etc., one by one. Delete the photos.
I am currently unwell so the much vaunted āpurposeful livingā advice is difficult for me. I guess I am fortunate, however, that I no longer need to see my LO as he has moved away.
All best to all of you.
I just arrived here and have a very very similar story to TP it would seem. Iāve been in an unhappy marriage for close to 15 years. Two kids under 10. My LE forcefield hit me in April. I Buried it until September when I confessed it to my therapist (who is technically a life coach). I am a competitive athlete and my LO is my sport coach. So I literally pay my LO to make me the best version of myself and compliment me etc and they are exceptionally good at itā¦unfortunately that also hits upon my deepest issues. My family had been effectively cancelled in my teenage years so I lost all friend relationships at that time followed by a terrible experience of unrequited love or LE simultaneously (it was a relationship but unrequited love). My sibling was very ill as a child and had a personality disorder demanding the lions share of my parents attention so I filled all that empty space of not experiencing much love or healthy relationships with achievement. I became a very successful adult with all the trappings minus the unhappy marriage (caused by my taking the first nice guy that came along after the big period of upheaval). It is in no way shocking I would fall for someone who finally showed me validation, encouragement and a type of love. Oh yeah itās same sex LO too so thatās additionally complicated because I heretofore identify as straight. My LO definitely does give me disproportionate attention and I donāt know that Iāve fully given up on itā¦ but thatās the glimmer talking because there is no way. But for me to disengage from the LO would be upending the source of my joy and my team and my routine. Itās a disgusting mess and I donāt understand why this happened because I was the happiest I had ever been in my life before I admitted I had a LO. Itās been a rapid downward spiral of self loathing, obsession, distraction and confusion ever since. I think I know this happened so I can seek a better partner in life, but I am now aware how deep my trauma around rejection and anxious attachment issues are. I doubt they are fixable frankly. So ugh. To get out of my marriage would mean the destruction of all that I spent 20 years building (much of it using achievement as a salve for deep desperate loneliness I had gotten over) as well as the impacts on my children. On top of all this my therapist encouraged me strongly to tell my LO love. I basically did everything but that and feel incredible amounts of shame around it. I feel very stuck in every possible way and just at a loss to understand why it has come about that I have to re-experience all of these feelings of just desperately wanting to experience love from somebody after having done a lot of work to get over all the issues I had in my past and become a strong confident person. Why did this have to happen?
“Why did this have to happen?”
Ah, the million-dollar question. I’ve asked myself umpteenth time this question as well, at first as a protest, now with some curiosity.
I find your story interesting from the point of view that you sound like you have a fairly purposeful life with your sport, and have worked on yourself. I met my LO in the middle of a professional renaissance, searching for more purpose already as it were. So why limerence NOW?
I am not entirely sure these are the answers but here are my thoughts on some possibilities:
1) self-sabotage. Things are going so well! Let’s blow it up. This would be due to some very deeply buried feeling of unworthiness.
2) limerence as a way to avoid intimacy in our primary relationship. To keep a distance from our SO. Although we all think we want close, intimate relationships, some of us have some genuine discomfort with being too close.
3) wrong purpose. Even if successful in sport or other profession, perhaps this is telling you that this is not IT. Not the most fulfilling purpose for your life. Or maybe it is encouraging you to look at OTHER aspects of your life, eg. spirituality, you mentioned finding a new partner. Certainly, unless you have EVERYTHING sorted in your life, there will be room for improvement SOMEWHERE, and this is a wake-up call that there is a problem somewhere.
Thanks for the reply @Limmy. This happened in a renaissance era of sorts for me also. I was a successful entrepreneur and sold a company (giving me the flexibility to pursue my sport after grinding hard at work for a couple decades). My LO moment of realization came when I lost a big event and I came back and my LO wrapped me in a big hug and told me how proud she was. The earth fell from my feet. Iām a pretty serious overachiever, nobody has loved me in a moment in failure (or if they did they didnāt happen to mention it). Meanwhile my spouse has always struggled mightily professionally and there is a lot of mutual resentment. As it would turn out this is not dissimilar to my LOās story (I found that out after telling her I was considering ending my marriage, that sent me into s downward spiral). I think I know this happened to make me look at the relationships in life where I severely lack from genuine connection… I found that with LO. All the things Iāve done in life canāt fill the loneliness void and until I met LO and my associated teammates I didnāt even know it was possible for me to connect deeply with people, including friends, because I had a hard wall up after being cancelled. But to end my marriage I will have to give up my house, my lifestyle and likely go back to a demanding career that I donāt want. And blow up all I have provided for my young-ish children. My LO experience now has reminded me why I focused on school, work, and being a superstar human who radiates energyā¦.I have a black hole of not really knowing anything other than conditional love and major rejections. So not thinking this whole search for a more suitable mate is gonna shake out so well for me, particularly if Iām broken by the fall out of destroying everything I used to distract myself with for 20 years. My therapist is beyond frustrated with me for not believing, manifesting, acting like a victim etc etc but I look at this whole thing and thing I was doing pretty well before. LO and I had a very fun flirtation going and my therapist pushed me hard to push it further by confessing to herā¦ that blew the lid off all my serious issues with rejection and Iām a mess. Unsurprisingly my sport performance went downhill fast. So Iām basically adrift here clinging to affirmations from my LO that Iām a great athlete and our shared sense of humor. Apart from that itās just being consumed by turmoil for 3+ months. I think I need to fire my therapist (life coach) who tells me Iām living a lie with no integrity and will be miserable until I break from all the material thingsā¦ itās not the things, itās the pursuit of distraction to fill a hole because I canāt seem to bond normally with someone who has a similar amount of ālife forceā so to speak. My absolute desperation to be loved freaks out the people with whom I am peers because Iāve done so well with purpose on multiple fronts.
@SGA Ah yes, over-achieving to create an identity we can live with so we don’t have to feel the pain of not being enough just as we are.
Your LO was just there at the precise emotional moment when you were utterly vulnerable. My LO arrived just as I was wondering if my SO still loved me. In both our cases it appears to be a desperate need for love.
Your description of your psyche could be my own. I am considered the most put-together person (my siblings call me the one who got her sh*t together), everyone’s angel (I am not exaggerating), the best friend anyone could have, upstanding neighbor, etc. But no one sees that vulnerable side, the one that made me open to falling for a LO that is in every way unsuitable. I think partially what drew me to LO is that he’s so flawed like myself although he also LOOKs all put-together. It’s like I recognized myself in him right away.
My SO, who I love deeply, is without darkness, the best, most decent human being in the world. We were just going through a rough patch: I’ve now fixed it, but unfortunately, LO has rooted in that short crack of time, and I can’t get rid of him! I mean, it took me 20 years to get over my first LO (that’s like 18 years of NC). I don’t let go of people I care about easily.
I wish someone could tell ME what is going on with me.
Limmy,
“But no one sees that vulnerable side, the one that made me open to falling for a LO that is in every way unsuitable. I think partially what drew me to LO is that heās so flawed like myself although he also LOOKs all put-together. Itās like I recognized myself in him right away.”
Ah…the seething cauldron of insecurity contained by the outward show of cool control. People like that aren’t fragile, they’re brittle. They’re tough but they have a flaw. Put them under pressure and hit them in the right spot and they shatter like a frozen windshield.
If you want to pull strings which may or may not apply to you, check out https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/. I love Schreiber’s stuff.
@Limerent Emeritus Thank you for the link. SO MUCH stuff there that resonates. I’ve saved it, as it is a lot to digest.
I don’t like that image of myself as brittle. But you may be right.
Brittle Limmy,
You’re welcome! I really like her stuff. Check out https://sharischreiber.com/sharis-blog/
Many of them are condensed versions of articles that you have to pay to see. It’s not expensive. I paid, but I love her stuff.
I might get her book too …
When I was working with a therapist to understand my relationship with LO #2, I printed out Schreiber’s “HAVEN’T WE MET BEFORE? The Borderline/Narcissist Couple” [you have to pay to read this]. I told the therapist we’d be discussing it at our next session. I already had one professional opinion that LO #2 had a personality disorder. At this point, I was wondering about me.
At the next session, I asked the therapist if we’d been in a Borderline/Narcissist relationship. The therapist had my 12 page history of that relationship.
Her response: “Not exactly, but you two were doing a really good imitation of one.
@Lovisa
“It sounds like there are many other issues and that was just one of them. ”
Oh yes there is. My wife’s bipolar has been getting worse in the last two years or so, and she hasn’t come out of this low cycle yet. And then there are the marital issues that come out of her mental illness and my addiction. I think I became limerent with LO because of our other issues, as an escape of sorts.
But I am not entirely sure that’s it. At least not all of it. LO has many admirable and attractive qualities and she a wonderful loving mother. Not that my wife isn’t. She raised both our boys while was out working to put food on the table. If I were single she would have definitely been a prize to pursue. But it could be a combination of both I guess.
I will check out the resources you have provided. And yes I am hoping that we can get through this and keep our marriage. But I am also realistic that if we don’t BOTH work hard at it, that it may end. I don’t want to be like my paternal grandparents who just both lived together in the same house like roommates all my life until they died. To me that’s a prison I don’t want to be in.
Yes they are our children. One 19 and at a in state college and the other 16 and in high school. I find much joy in continuing to be a part of my boys’ lives while going through this. Lol hell when I brought my oldest back to campus after Thanksgiving I ended up drinking a little to much with his friends and ended up spending the night in his dorm. š
I am thinking this weekend I am just going to take my wife out on a surprise date night and just enjoy the time together. Maybe some time alone together we can relax a bit and come back to this when we are more calm.
Adam, I thought you were a young dad. Please forgive my error.
You are at a transition stage. Your kids are launching. Your limerence makes perfect sense! Transitions stink! We have to re-invent ourselves. We have to figure out what the new normal will look like and what is our role? You and your wife have been living very purposefully, but your kids donāt need you quite like they used to. This stage is hard for your wife, too. Our mental illness symptoms always worsen when we are under stress unless we actively treat them. Iām not surprised that your wifeās symptoms are worse. My heart goes out to her. It sounds like you have been dealing with this issue for a long time. I hope you have found healthy ways to cope and strategies to sooth both of you. I honestly donāt know what it looks like at your house navigating the waters of bipolar. It sounds hard.
I want to address something with you. You mentioned addiction and you mentioned alcohol. Did you confess to an alcohol addiction? (Forgive my naĆÆvetĆ©. I was raised in a church that doesnāt allow for drug use so I have been fortunate to avoid those types of addictions my whole life. Iāve had very little experience with alcohol use. Lol, maybe my church should add limerence to the No-no list). Anyway, I would like to hear about how you are addressing your addiction, if in fact I understood correctly. And only if you are comfortable sharing, of course.
Your personal awareness impresses me. It is your super-power and it will help you on this journey.
Yeah I will be 46 this year and my wife will be 44. We’ve been married 23. But no worries. No harm done.
Around spring of last year I think I did just that. Subconsciously at the time. It wasn’t like I was being self aware in my changes. At least not all of them. Anyway then I decided to loose some weight. By fall of the same year I had lost 40 lbs. I also decided to try and stop smoking or at least cut way down. Which so far I have cut way down. And in the midst of all that I had drastically changed my wardrobe. This one was something that was really I think the subconscious part. I went basically from jeans & tshirt to business/formal-casual. And in the midst of all these changes my wife had asked me if I was having a mid-life crisis or trying to attract the attention of another woman. (I think this might have been where the PA with LO wheels started turning in her head.) I kind of blew it off, as the later wasn’t the reason for the change, at least at a conscious level. And I had no idea what a mid-life crisis would be like so I didn’t take much stock in it. And certainly didn’t think about midlife interfering or making her bipolar worse. But she has definitely been taking our oldest son being away at college badly. In fact just the other night I had to comfort her as she just all of sudden started crying about not getting to see him very much. He’s come home probably half a dozen times since he started in August of last year. But we have gone to campus and brought him lunch and ate with him and his lady friend a couple of times. Me, I am more proud of the man that he has become and the drive he has to better himself so he is a better place in life than his old man when he gets to be my age.
Yeah I have been drinking since I was about 18 in varying degrees. I have my good spells and I have my bad spells. I will admit that, since I got married, my drinking habits are linked to the condition of my wife’s mental illness. I can even see that. But I still have done better at it then when I was younger. Especially when I was single. I really drank heavily. Now I am what they call a high functioning alcoholic. And there is no doubt I am an alcoholic. And I have done nothing really about it other than self checking myself about driving after drinking and checking in with my wife that my behavior isn’t negative towards her or our son living with us. She did say she has noticed I’ve been drinking more than usual during the last few months. Which is probably around the time LO quit and left my life. But she says I still treat her and our son right and have not been negative. She did say I seem to be more frustrated than usual. Probably due to the intrusive thoughts and that for so long I held back from telling my wife about my limerence until the pain was unbearable.
No worries, I came from a very conservative christian home. I was rasied Jehovah’s Witness and did not leave until a year or so after we got married. She was not a Jehovah’s Witness and that is a big no-no to date/marry outside the religion. I can understand the either positive or negative effects religion can have on people.
I never thought that I was really all that self aware myself. I guess I am not that self aware if I don’t even know I’m self aware š
ā I never thought that I was really all that self aware myself. I guess I am not that self aware if I donāt even know Iām self aware ā
Lol, you are now. Read your posts if you need proof. Thatās really funny.
Thanks for sharing. You have a lot going on. I like that your son is thriving and you have a positive attitude about his future. No doubt your wife feels the same in addition to missing him.
Iām concerned about your being an alcoholic and drinking more lately. Is it helpful? Would it be helpful to quit? Is there something I can do to encourage you to kick that habit? Iāve attended 12-step programs with two friends: one was for meth and the other was for cocaine and the drugs he used to replace the cocaine. I love the atmosphere in those meetings! If youāve never tried it, may I suggest you check one out?
I think you are right that you and Mrs. Adam just need to do something fun together. She is feeling a void that your son used to fill. Maybe you guys can do something fun and maybe even take up a new hobby. My husband and I start ballroom dance classes next week and I am really looking forward to it. Just a thought.
Not sure if I can answer either question. It’s been a part of my life for so long I honestly doubt that I could go 100% sober. I certainly could try to do as I did with my smoking and cut back to a point. As far as helping, again, its as much a part of me as anything else in my life. I think the dangerous part of it is that I don’t let it interfere with the important aspects of my life. I hold a job, manage my finances, take care of my family, etc. If I need to be sober for some event or task I can handle that. But when there is no reason not to drink, I see no reason why not to.
As far as helping the current situation with LO yeah it is a coping mechanism that dulls the pain from both the thoughts of LO I have and making amends with my wife. I am terrible at saying what I want or what even needs to be said if I feel it will hurt feelings and/or cause discord. I’d rather shoulder the pain internally. But this limerence is more pain than I have ever tried to bear. It ate me from the inside out until I couldn’t hide it anymore and my wife started asking questions. Even long before I ever knew what was dictating my behavior; the limerence.
If I can get her to leave the house, yeah I think I am going to surprise her and take her out to dinner and maybe even a movie if there is something she wants to watch and just enjoy the time together. It sounds nice and maybe it will help me keep my thoughts on her and not LO. Because I had a really bad day yesterday with the intrusive thoughts of LO and was finding it really hard to concentrate on work and getting my daily tasks done.
Adam, okay it sounds like the alcohol isnāt an issue. I guess there is no reason to address it.
āā¦ I am terrible at saying what I want or what even needs to be saidā¦ā
What is it that you arenāt saying? If you felt safe to say something, what would it be?
You are right that limerence can be painful. It was a wake-up call for many of us.
I hope you are able to persuade Mrs. Adam to go out and have fun. I did something fun today. I raced go carts with my husband and son. I won, of course, but they are talented competitors. As we were leaving, my son said, āYou know Mom, the trouble with your driving isā¦ā. I cut him off, āThere is nothing wrong with my driving, no one passed me, and I won.ā I love trash-talking my family. Maybe Mrs. Adam would enjoy something like racing.
I am so glad you are here, Adam.
Adam, I really identify with this – mid-40s with my oldest out of the house and the next one leaving this year. I just recently lost 40 lbs too, and although LO wasn’t the reason for starting, it was definitely a motivation to keep going. In the back of my mind, almost subconsciously, I’d think, “if I just lose a couple more pounds and gain a little more muscle, she’ll fall for me too.” Clearly that wasn’t working in that regard and was the source of some of my frustration. “Doesn’t she notice?” Am I having a mid-life crisis? I don’t know either, but I do know that I’m battling feelings of wanting to just check-out of life responsibilities, like feeling I don’t have the energy to put into it anymore. Wow, this took a depressing turn I was not expecting, sorry, so I’m just gonna quit right there.
I can very much relate to that. Especially since most of the people at the office noticed themselves of my changes. But I don’t know if LO did other than one time. She saw me and asked “why are you all dressed up” and smiled at me. If there was one time in my life it took all the effort in the world for my brain to work so I could sputter out a few words and shrug.
I’ve had and are reading a lot on midlife crisis and the link to variable stages and types of affairs; especially in men. And it is a very common factor. And very prominent that they start in the work place. It seems to be a part of looking at ourselves and our past and wondering about the future.
And remember as Lovisa pointed out some comment early monogamy and monogamous relationships aren’t a natural instinct to humans but a societal construct. So hitting this age is like “is this all?”, “is she the one?”, “do other women notice me?” and there starts the instincts in us as humans to want to prove that we are desirable to our preferred gender. And it’s a helluva high too. When I got interact with LO or talk to her, yeah, it’s just all the shit going on in day to day life just disappeared and all I could think of was looking in beautiful green eyes as she talked. And it takes a lot of self awareness to snap yourself out of it, as you constantly trying to justify and rationalize your behavior. So don’t beat yourself up too bad Jason.
Adam,
This one’s for you!
https://cdn.alphacomedy.com/37/2023/07_04_23_b4a30e45cec04d75cd2504db6008102f.jpg
Ive said before God cursed me with the love of women but blessed me with the love of alcohol. Canāt have one without the other it seems.
Update #3. After what felt like a good day yesterday and a step forward in understanding yesterday, the issues came to light today. My LO is off the rest of this week for an out of state funeral and I had an email from her in my inbox this morning.
Basically her worries started to bubble to surface and I think they have merit. Yesterday evening after we texted a few work related items I sent one more text of a personal nature telling her have a good trip and that I would be thinking of her. This was stupid of me, but I just meant it in a comforting way because she was going to a family member funeral.
A week ago she would not have had one bad thought about this text but after my disclosure and telling her how texting can be perceived to a spouse she freaked out now. She told me she does not hide her phone from her spouse and was worried I would say something that would damage her marriage. I felt this to be disingenuous considering all the texting she had initiated and carried on with me all in front of her spouse for months. She said she has done nothing but show friendship to me. The whole thing felt like I was being scolded and a bit gaslighted. She had done plenty that could be perceived as more than friendship even though that is how she meant it.
So, I am not about to get in a back and forth of “you said this and you did that” tit for tat with her. That will simply end bad. I simply told her any personal texting would stop between us period and that I respect her and do not want to do her damage. I said I want to move on with a good professional in office working relationship and put this behind us. It will never truly be behind us though.
She emailed back and was agreeable and thanked me.
I knew the freak out was coming, but if that is it, it was not so bad I think.
As my mind tries to make sense of her I keep coming back to, she is just that naive about marriage, and men and women or she really did have a desire to pursue intimate relationship (not necessarily romantic) with me and now that I brought everything to light she is freaking out about her feelings too. I’ve had months to sort what the hell is going on with me, she might be just getting in tune with it now.
I would be wary of how much you can trust yourself and what you perceive. As strange as it sounds the one thing I can see clearly is that I canāt see clearly and often even my best motives have something tied to them.
I do not fully know your situation or the people involved so you may be 100% correct in what you think and see. I just know I catch myself doing or saying things that on the surface I have a valid friendly reason for but deep down I find I am hoping to create a certain topic or situation. Sometimes I even notice it much later as I inevitably go over the convos in my head.
Just some food for thought. Iām feeling a bit blah as I didnāt even speak to my LO today and I notice that if I donāt make any effort I probably never would. Reality can be tough. I suppose Iāll need to get used to this at some point though.
Good luck Speed!
Yes, I feel my perception of everything is off. It’s disorienting. What bothers me is all of a sudden she is hyper aware of my texting being a problem to her when prior to disclosure she was perfectly fine with it and more often than not initiated texting in a way my SO would have been very suspicious.
I truly believe texting is the tool of the devil on the limerent mind.
Rufio…one piece of advice. Enjoy the days you have left with LO in the office. So what if she makes less effort, she is still your friend. But under no circumstance start getting into texting with her.
Speedy,
Your LO put you on notice.
Back off! Quit bargaining!
If this goes south on her, you’re going under the bus. She has enough evidence and a coworker to back her up.
My bet is her marriage is more important to her than you are. You started this.
And, what exactly are you getting out of this?
Has the anxiety kicked in yet?
@rufio “the one thing I can see clearly is that I canāt see clearly” 100% with you on that one. I used to pride myself in being a clear thinker, who does not buy “alternative facts”. Limerence and the reality-bending distortions it has caused in my mind have really humbled me.
@ Speedwagon “all of a sudden she is hyper aware of my texting being a problem to her when prior to disclosure she was perfectly fine with it”
As a woman, if a GUY FRIEND was txting me, it wouldn’t be a problem, I might even show it to my husband, but if a GUY WHO LIKES ME (and I knew it) was txting, I would feel a lot more uncomfortable. Your disclosure changed your status from the first to the second. That’s why she’s suddenly anxious about it. Think about it, if her husband asked her before, she would have said “oh, he’s just a friend” now she would need to say “oh, he’s just a guy who is in love with me.” Any husband would jump. And wonder why she was encouraging your txting. Limerent Emeritus is totally correct, she has put you on notice that things cannot continue as they were.
@LE bargaining for what. I told her all personal texting stops. I am not bargaining with her. She was as complicit in texting me as I was her. She sent me many texts unsolicited that my wife would not have been pleased about. I am not bargaining with her. I am stopping it altogether now. But I still will come here to LWL to vent.
Also, anxiety over what? That I had some feelings of attraction for girl and we texted mindless chit chat a bit. No, I don’t have anxiety over that.
I still don’t regret the disclosure. I feel this is still a better path forward with this woman. It will just take time to heal.
I should say, later today after the emailing she texted me a couple work things. I told her not to mind it and we would catch up on them Monday. She said great.
At least that made me feel like she is not stewing.
Bargaining about what..?
“That will simply end bad. I simply told her any personal texting would stop between us period and that I respect her and do not want to do her damage. I said I want to move on with a good professional in office working relationship and put this behind us. It will never truly be behind us though.”
If you hadn’t added the last sentence, I might have believed you.
Until you disclosed, she may have been complicit but she was unwitting. You shot the elephant in the room. Limmy was right.
Worst case, your LO will now cringe every time the phone goes off when she’s with her husband. She now has to manage her leakage in the office AND at home. You gotta think these things through.
Another $5 says that this is nowhere near behind you.
She was the one doing more than 50% of the text initiation. I had gone no texting NC on a number of occasions with her and she would then text me. I am fine not texting her and I made it clear with her the texting stops. It’s both on us because we were both complicit in it.
She should have no reason not to trust me with that. In fact she texted me later today about work matters so I believe she does believe it.
No, this is not behind us, it will take time. But there is no reason now it has to be an issue for anyone else either…meaning her SO or mine.
Speedwagon,
You were a safe person to her. She saw you as a role-model and friend. She trusted you. She did not intentionally lead you on. You misunderstood. She wanted closeness. You thought that meant she wanted romance. It doesnāt.
Thanks for the update. You have good professional skills. Itās obvious you felt defensive, but resisted the temptation to protest. Well done.
Thank you Lovisa. It’s very comforting to go through this with people like you to keep me grounded and encouraged. I am very emotionally spent right now.
I believe everything you say is true. I’m glad my LO is out of office right now because we both need a little space. I don’t regret disclosing because I could not keep going on under the same conditions. The uncertainty was killing me. From a limerence standpoint the disclosure helped a lot. The texting with her was killing me and she understands now that it was not the same for her as for me and a definitive solution has been made. No texting! I see a path forward now coexisting with LO. I just hope she is OK and can get past this too and not feel awkward or burdened.
Onward and upward.
I love the attitude, Speedy! You got this. And you are welcome.
I suspect your disclosure soothed the limerence because you didnāt get reciprocation. What if she had confessed mutual attraction? Or worse, what if she was ambivalent? Do you think your limerence would be on the fast track to recovery? I donāt. I think you were lucky. Every disclosure Iāve experienced revealed a mutual attraction. The disclosure escalated the attraction every time. I am still against disclosure, but I appreciate having you on the other side. Your story is educational and interesting.
Thanks for the update.
Btw, itās ironic that you warned her against personal texting men because it could trouble her spouse, then you did it! Speedy, come on. You were pushing boundaries. āI will be thinking of you.ā Come on. Before disclosure, no big deal. After disclosure, yikes! Limmy had some great explanations for you. I hope you take her words to heart. And I think Limerent Emeritus is right that you should approach with caution. Also, Rufioās idea that you shouldnāt trust your judgment for a while might be helpful, too. Itās cool that you have a handful of strangers who are trying to look out for your best interest.
Just like my LO3, you are conflicted. My LO3 reached out to me more frequently after he said he intended to be distant. Last night he was playful which is adorable. My limerence was intense today, but luckily I am in the euphoric stage. Also lucky that I reminded myself that indulging in reverie about LO3 will build pathways in my brain that will lead to intrusive thoughts. I was able to shut it down a lot today, hopefully itās a step in the right direction. Thereās my update.
Cheers to your speedy recovery!
Yes, that was stupid. I admit it. That is why no texting, period is best policy. I told her direct today in our email correspondence we cannot text personally. I can’t trust myself and she shouldn’t trust me either. No texting, period! It’s done.
Good call, Speedy. Thanks for your response. I know you are emotionally spent. Get some sleep. I hope tomorrow is better.
@Lovisa @Limmy
I do have a question for you about what to do, if you don’t mind.
In her last ‘angry’ email correspondence to me about texting she stated “I didn’t look for this problem, I have not done anything that shows I have feelings for you other than friendship.”
This statement bothers me because it discounts my perceptions of her actions. She is only seeing it from her point of view, but I have not given my point of view about how I perceived the texting. As I have stated, I believe her when she says it was friendship motivated, but that does not mean I understood her motivations.
Is it worthwhile to explain to her how I perceived her texting and how it was a problem for me. Not to accuse her of leading me on, but to show her the difference in the way we experienced it. I feel like it is worthwhile for her to know how her perceived innocent actions could be seen as not so appropriate for our SOs and caused me confusion.
I hate that she feels like all she did was show friendship and I am now the crazy person.
What’s your thoughts?
You know what…don’t need to answer. I’m going to let her cycle thru emotions without disturbing her and getting into weeds with her on this. I don’t want to put her on defensive one bit. If she has questions she will seek me out and I will be open and honest. Otherwise I will give her space and time.
Wow Speedwagon, you are gaining some great insight. I am so proud of you for even asking the question. This shows humility. You might not like my answer, but I will do my best to steer you in the right direction.
Limmy, donāt read my response until you posted yours. I donāt want to influence you.
Speedwagon, first of all, you are not crazy and your reaction makes sense.
Let me see if I understand. You are hurt and you feel like no one is listening to your side of the story. You might be right. You feel like LO needs to understand that her actions can be misread as romantic interest not just by you, but by other men too. You want her to understand this because you want to warn her. You also want to defend yourself. You want to show that your reaction to the back and forth between you two makes sense. Did I get it?
You validated her position. You also put boundaries in place (no texting) that will help both of you. You are really trying to smooth this out and you feel like your efforts are being met with some hostility. You feel like she isnāt even trying to see your side of it.
I hope I am getting it. Please correct me or add something if I missed anything.
ā Is it worthwhile to explain to her how I perceived her texting and how it was a problem for me.ā
No. It is a bad idea to tell her how you perceived her texting. I donāt think she wants to hear it and I think it will make the problem worse. This is kind of like a āthe customer is always rightā situation. She is in the lead. You are in the dog house. Stay there! It is the safest place for you. Just keep apologizing and validating her side. This is temporary. It will pass unless you anger her. If you anger her enough, very bad things will happen.
This lesson is yours not hers.
Also, though you think she doesnāt see how her actions influenced you, she is probably second guessing herself. She might learn more from this experience than you think. But you will never know so just accept it.
Accept these thingsā¦
She didnāt do anything wrong.
You misunderstood her intent.
She doesnāt want to learn about proper male/female texting standards.
You probably donāt get the luxury of having your side heard or validated at work. Please donāt push it.
And be grateful that she is willing to have a professional relationship with you.
Iām sorry you guys are exchanging angry emails. Here is how I would love for you to respond to what you sharedā¦
āI didnāt look for this problem, I have not done anything that shows I have feelings for you other than friendship.ā
You are right, LO. I see that now and I am sorry.
Those are my thoughts, Speedy. Good luck!
Lovisa, you nailed it and have given some great insight and advice. I’m gonna let it lie. If she decides she needs more answers from me I will be happy to provide them, but that is her choice. I will give her that space.
Your advice will be followed.
Thank you for walking through this with me. It’s a huge help!!!
Speedwagon, you are very welcome. I am learning from you, too. Thank you.
@Speedwagon
I just saw @Lovisa telling me not to read her response till I’ve responded, so okay I’ll put in my 2 cents. š
In Scenario #1 where your LO really had no idea:
You have to be very careful, as if you start getting into a comparison of perceptions, you might either be seen as delusional or slightly creepy. And if you put it in writing, the record exists forever. I would not do this for that reason alone. Also, you are seeking closure, which I believe we all have to learn to live without. You need to let go of the need to get her to “understand”. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter, as you are not in a relationship with this woman, and there is no need to hash out differences, as though you are in a relationship.
In Scenario #2 where she had some idea but is denying it:
I think, she’s possibly in damage control. She wants to rewrite history, so her complicitness cannot be used against her. This could be from the view of her SO or even her own self-image (ie. she doesn’t want to see herself as a person who leads guys on). Her instinct is to protect herself, and her relationship with her SO. At this point, she might be throwing you under the bus a little, by gaslighting you. This understandably is upsetting to you, because it is hugely unfair to you, but in a way, you can’t really blame her. You just have to accept that she’s not quite as brave or honest as you would have liked.
I have now read Lovisa’s reply and I agree with her approach (“you will never know so just accept it”) 100%. And you obviously do too, Speedwagon.
Glad to hear things are getting better for you Speed! Iām taking you no texting policy to heart. I donāt have a big texting history with my LO but we have done it in a joking manner from time to time.
I love the line you used, āI canāt trust myselfā! I know that very well. Iāve kinda let myself get carried away with the day dreaming and fantasies again thinking it wouldnāt hurt every once in awhile. Wrong. It is like pringles once you pop you canāt stop.
Rufio, we want you to enjoy her until she leaves. Enjoy the real LO, not the fantasy LO. Those fantasies and day dreams lead to intrusive thoughts. Be strong. Donāt even start. When you catch yourself daydreaming, redirect, come to this site if you have to. I donāt know if I am talking to you or myself right now because I am guilty of upping the daydreams in the last few days, too. Itās getting bad. I need to focus on something else. LO3 told me that he intends to distance himself from me to focus on his family. Then he increased his correspondence and he has been especially playful. There is just nothing better than a playful LO. Okay, maybe puppies and kittens are better. Hmmm, I think Iāll visit the animal shelter today to distract myself from my day dreams.
Puppies and kittens, puppies and kittensā¦ I can do this. Be strong Lovisa.
Sorry Rufio, I got a little distracted. Itās a big problem for me right now. Hang in there. Iām cheering for you. But seriously, try to avoid the day dreams if you can, k?
I think we all post things here as reminders to ourselves, Lovisa.
Puppies and kittens, I love it!
Iām trying to just go with the flow and not purposely go to her side of the building. I tell myself if I donāt see her I donāt see her and it will be fine. No more forcing the issue because it does me no good.
I can be her friend when I see her but I donāt need to put to much into if it is a true friendship it will work itself out.
I hope you stay strong as well! I love reading your messages so keep them up!
Thanks Rufio! Iām glad you enjoy my comments. I enjoy yours, too.
When I read how you are avoiding visiting her side of the building, I have two reactionsā¦
My thinking brain says, āYou are doing great, Rufio! I love your strategy. I know itās hard, but itās the best way to get through this.ā
My lizard brain thinks, āWhat? He is missing opportunities to see LO. He needs to get as much LO contact as he can before she is gone!ā
I am obviously conflicted. And, confession timeā¦ I might really up the communication with LO3 tonight. My family had a rough experience today and LO3 is an expert on these things and he can answer questions as well as being a shoulder to cry on for me. He said he could do a phone call tonight. I keep thinking about how Limerent Emeritus warns the men not to be a shoulder to cry on for their LO. And I think itās a selfish thing for me to go through with this phone call knowing that it will draw my LO3 closer to me. Iām so glad I told you. Writing this out helps me realize that I need to cancel that call. I will cancel it.
Thanks Rufio.
Hi Accountability Buddy, I canceled the call. But I also spent an hour and a half texting LO late last night. (Speedwagon will be so annoyed if he sees this. I am ready for his chastisement). I think it bothered my husband though he didnāt say anything. And I kind of tried to hide what I was doing. LO was away from his SO so I know he didnāt have to hide anything. This morning, I am questioning if we are teetering on the edge of an EA. I think I will cool off for a few days.
The texting was benign. It started when he reached out to me about my family problems (I think I told you he is an expert on the problem we were having). I guess I was kind of a damsel in distress, but I wasnāt exaggerating the experience or manipulating him for attention. It was sincere. He soothed me. He is very soothing. Itās my favorite thing about him. Then I got playful and we talked about racing go carts. I trash-talked him which he thought was funny. I told him he couldnāt beat me in a go cart race. He said he liked my confidence, but he just might have to humble me, lol. It was fun and silly.
I can already picture eye rolls from Limerent Emeritus because I kind of cried on LO3ās shoulder over text. And I can see Speedy throw his hands in the air and say, āI warned her about texting! Why doesnāt anyone listen to me?ā I deserve both reactions.
LO3 has never used the word limerence with me. When he disclosed, he used the word attraction. He said he was attracted to me physically, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually and socially. And that he has never experienced attraction on so many levels. I donāt know if he is a limerent. I tell myself that he is just experiencing attraction because I feel less guilty about it. But he says things that hint at limerence like he thinks about me a lot. And he used the word magic in reference to me as if I cast a spell on him. I really want to believe that he isnāt a limerent, but when he says stuff like that, I worry that he could be.
Anyway, thanks for listening. Have a great day, Rufio!
Lovisa,
“Then I got playful and we talked about racing go carts. I trash-talked him which he thought was funny. I told him he couldnāt beat me in a go cart race. He said he liked my confidence, but he just might have to humble me, lol. It was fun and silly.”
In today’s lesson, we’ll discuss the topic of “Banter.”
Banter… It can be a lot of fun and it’s a wonderful tool for creating attachment. You gotta be careful with banter.
You test your respective challenges and responses, i.e., you’re testing boundaries. When done with an LO, it’s low-grade flirting with plausible deniability.
“He said he liked my confidence, but he just might have to humble me, lol.” – That was a test.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/flirting/#comment-1327
If one challenge goes well, the next one probes a little harder. If you’re both good at it, you can play this tennis game a long time. It’s not the content that will trip you up, it’s the frequency. It’s easy to get caught up bantering with your LO and lose situational awareness.
You can waste hours coming up with pithy banter and work yourself into an exquisite twinge imagining the next exchange. You can positively tingle.
It was banter between LO #4 and I that caught the attention of another moderator on her site. He told me that from the way we went at each other he thought that we had known each other a long time and we were really close.
That was a warning. If he noticed, other people might notice. The thing was, LO #4 later claimed that she hadn’t noticed.
Thanks Limerent Emeritus. I know youāre right. Thanks for the vocabulary word.
Lovisa,
It takes two to banter.
Banter between two intelligent, witty acquaintances is fun.
Banter between two people who are attracted to each other is part chess game and part mating dance. It can be done virtually but it’s always better in person where you can watch their eyes and read their body language.
“He said he liked my confidence, but he just might have to humble me, lol.” – “Check”
Your move.
Text banter is an electronic mating dance.
We need to stop seeing it as benign.
@Limerent Emeritus
Hmm, I really like your chess game analogy and I’m going to play with it a bit.
The opponents: limerent and limerent object
Checkmate: he or she who gets the other to disclose their love first, wins
The opening game: texts and moves that are intriguingly open ended: what did they mean by that opening move? (did they like me, did they not? uncertainty at its height) What is the strategy being set for what long-game? (is this a romance, or am I imagining it?) The players start orienting themselves and getting a feel for the opponent (crystalization happens at the end of the opening game).
The middle: exhilarating, full of clever moves and text banter, full of positioning and repositioning (who texts first, who texts last, who initiates, who gets the last word), material is exchanged value for value (who veered closer to disclosure, who gave information), who has the upper hand shifts back and forth a bit (who seems to care more), and blunders are made (ooops – I don’t even have to explain this, all of us have had ooops moments in this LE dance) sometimes recoverable, sometimes fatal.
The end game: playing for life or death, trying to prevent advance on the board, trying to contain the situation, damage control, avoiding traps that have been brewing since possibly the opening, impossibility of evading the consequences of the position we have put ourselves into due to our lack of foresight, lousy play, or carelessness. Trying to protect the SO (the Queen, the most powerful piece on the board, who is often lost in the end game) while trying to corner the LO (the King) into whatever it is we desperately want from them. Sometimes there is a stalemate where the opponents sally back and forth endlessly, neither getting the advantage (interestingly, there is a rule against making the same move three times). Other times, when you realize you are going to lose, you resign, hopefully gracefully with a handshake (stopping the LE before it runs into its inevitable conclusion; other times not so gracefully. If the game runs to its bitter end there is a winner and there is a loser.
Game on!
Limmy, I wondered what you would say about this stuff. Thanks for being direct.
Limerent Emeritus and Limmy. I know youāre right. I hear your warning. It will probably change my behavior temporarily. Iām thinking LC until Monday. Who am I kidding? I probably wonāt even last the night. But I promise no texting until after Monday. I can do that. Iāll be on social media though.
I appreciate you guys.
Well said Lovisa. Because you are right. No one wants intrusive thoughts. Believe me I know. It’s what insanely drove me to the point I had to disclose to my wife about limerence and LO. And that was NOT a pleasant conversation. Imagine feeling driven to tell your spouse of X years of marriage that another woman/man is in your thoughts 24/7 that drove you crazy. It’s maddening and very difficult not to give in to the warm satisfying urge to think about them and think purposefully. Believe me the cold shoulder and distancing I get from my wife; I deserve it. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have two women breaking my heart.
Ugh! Adam, that kind of stress is what pushes us towards our unhealthy coping skills. You have two women breaking your heart. That is so hard. You need some puppies and kittens, Brother.
Can I ask you something? My LO2 is a dear friend of over 20 years. He lives in a sexless marriage. As his friend, I ask myself if thereās anything I can do to sooth his pain. I am obviously not going to have sexual relations with him, but I wonder if it would be helpful to give him extra attention or sit by him at lunch. But then this question came to my mind, āIsnāt it worse if he has feelings for two women who wonāt sleep with him?ā What are your thoughts? Oh and by the way, I donāt have limerence for him anymore. I used transference to my LO3 because the intrusive thoughts with LO2 were awful! We are still friends and I still care about him.
Thanks!
Adam,
No doubt that disclosure wasn’t a pleasant conversation. I don’t see how it could be.
Time to bring this one back from 2019: https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/
I waited 3 years after LO #4 and I said goodbye to disclose to my wife.
When I disclosed, my wife looked at me and asked, “Did you love her?” My response was that I’d never actually met LO #4 or even actually talked to her directly. Our communication was all electronic. It got pretty personal and intense, but it was all electronic and I destroyed every shred of evidence that I had.
My wife knows the difference between and answer and a response. What I said was a response, not an answer. She asked me again, “Did you love her?” I looked at her and said, “I don’t think so.” Again, it wasn’t an answer but it was a perfectly valid response. A more accurate response would have been, “Possibly,” but I was smart enough to avoid that one.
@Lovisa
“I used transference to my LO3 because the intrusive thoughts with LO2 were awful! We are still friends and I still care about him.”
I personally would find this risky, in that the limerence could transfer back to LO2, especially if he is still attracted to you. There is nothing more alluring that someone who desires you. Our egos are insatiable! Also, even if you get through this unscathed, your LO2 in his sexless marriage and already attracted to you … you might cause HIM to fall into a horrible LE for you, and then his suffering is made worse. I feel the pull of wanting to help the guy, but perhaps you need to accept that you might not be the person who can be the one to help him.
*throwing hands in air* What did we just say about texting. It’s the devil’s tool for the limerent mind! But oh fun and addicting it can be. Lovisa…I’m not disappointed, there is no judgement here. If my LO all of a sudden wanted to text and have flirty bantor I would without hesitation probably even though she would then gaslight me and tell me it was all just friendship and how could I read into as anything else. But no bitterness here, I’m setting that aside as I navigate my own minefield (shout out to LE).
I know your LO disclosed to you, but did you disclose to him too? And does his SO know? If you have mutual disclosure and you both feel you can handle the texty bantor OK emotionally without sliding further down the full EA slope then my concern is really for the other SOs. If texting picks up frequency or intensity there will come a point it will blow up. And I would bet good money, deep down he wants to pursue the PA, it’s just that he knows it’s a long game with you.
You may want to set some ground rules with LO to keep that from happening.
Also, yes he is limerent. He just does not know the word (how long before he shows up here???…Lol). But that is evident by the way he said he wanted to pull back and then comes at you harder. He’s addicted.
Thanks Speedy! Here is how it went downā¦
We had an in-person meeting in June after texting since April. We had met in person prior to that but those meetings were before we became friends. Two days after our meeting he texted me that he was sorry he couldnāt be my friend anymore because he is too attracted to me. He said it was not my fault and I did nothing wrong. I said that I am attracted to him too but I can live with feelings of attraction and not act on them. I asked if he could do the same and he said he could. I also said that I would never betray our spouses. He expressed relief for my commitment to marriage. We mutually decided that we both get motivation, inspiration and comfort from each other so we decided to continue our friendship. We crossed the line with flirting once, but we havenāt done that since.
As far as the SOs are concerned, my husband knows. He has mixed feelings about it. Two years ago, I went through a depression that included suicidal ideation. That was scary for my SO. We both noticed that attention from some of my old office chums relieved my symptoms. I was texting two men every day for about a month and I was able to quit my depression medication. I also got my old delightful personality back and my libido went through the roof. I told my husband that I questioned if I was overstepping appropriate male/female boundaries. He said, āI donāt want you to stop talking to LO2 and friend of LO2.ā Of course he knows their names. My mood was lifting fast and I wasnāt doing anything wrong. Whatās weird is when I worked with them, we had the same conversations every day and I never questioned if I was being inappropriate. When I was doing it over text, I questioned myself. (Btw, now I know itās called banter. I am a banter addict. Thanks again for the vocabulary word, guys). I am a house wife, mother of 5, and I donāt see adults very often. When I was working, before my oldest was born, I worked in a male-dominated industry. I was showered with attention from really good men. They competed to make me laugh. Who wouldnāt love that?
As for his SO, I donāt know what she knows. He said that she knows we text and she knows we had an in-person meeting. He also said that she gave permission for him to run with me. We are both trail runners. One of my favorite runs is up one side of a mountain and down the other. Itās 12ish miles from my house and about 3000 feet of elevation gain. Unfortunately, I lose cell service for about six miles near the saddle which makes me very vulnerable. I do it alone anyway but I would love to have someone do it with me. My LO3 is the only person I know who could keep up and who would want to do it. At first my husband gave me permission but then he he said it felt too much like a date so he took the permission back. LO3ās wife gave him permission. He said he suspected that she was relieved when my husband changed his mind. Ironically, I did a 50k run alone with a 23-year-old man on New Yearās Eve and my husband was very supportive of that. It helps that I am old enough to be his mother. I can respect that. Interestingly, LO2ās friend didnāt like me doing that. He thinks the 23-year-old is attracted to me. I just think thatās gross. It was so fun! It was my first marathon, too. My husband is so proud of me and that feels good.
I think I got side tracked. I havenāt met LO3ās wife. She looks kind and radiant in her pictures. She has a sincere looking smile. I have heard from a mutual friend that she is bossy and mean. Iām kinda afraid of him telling her something stupid, like that he is attracted to me. He likes to face problems head-on. I really hope he doesnāt. I asked him not to, but I also told him that I donāt want him to lie or actively keep secrets.
Iām really spilling my guts here. I would love to hear some male perspectives about this.
Thank you for sharing, Lovisa. That is a lot of good background. I’m glad you feel safe here to share. Sorry you went through such a rough patch but glad you are back on track. A few thoughts…
It sounds as if you seek out male companionship maybe over female companionship? Whatever factors are in your background, having close male friends is more comfortable for you than having female ones. And maybe I am wrong, maybe you have many good female friends? Just guessing here. But why I bring this up is I am the same way. I for some reason seek out female companionship outside my SO all the time. Not in a romantic sense, but for close friendship. Over my 22 years of marriage I have always had close females friends in the workplace and I am just comfortable with that. What is tricky though is balancing that with an SO. My SO is very conservative with this which is why all this texting with my LO is very stressful on me. My SO would not be pleased at all and I have had to be quite secretive which I admit adds to the excitement.
But you have a more forgiving SO that seems to understand that you need a level of other male companionship. And he seems OK with your interactions with them as long as they don’t fall into full EA and of course PA. Perhaps your strategy just needs to be good communication about boundaries, both with SO and LO, and when things feel like they cross that proverbial line, reset, communicate and move forward again. Over everything I think your SO would want to feel he is still #1 in your life to give you the emotional support you need and he needs to know that often.
But I also do worry that since you are in mutual limerence that things with LO could escalate if he keeps pursuing little by little. Boiling frog scenario. Please watch out for that.
Now take this all with a margarita size grain of salt, because I am a fellow LE trying to give perspective. Might not be the best source of advice.
You are right, Speedwagon, I do prefer the company of men. I havenāt figured out why, yet. Itās something I have been pondering for a few years. Thanks for sharing that you prefer female friends. That helps me feel less weird about my preference.
I think you are right about establishing good boundaries, too. I do a good job of this, but sometimes the excitement gets to me and I compromise my boundaries. I know I would never cross the line of engaging in sexual behavior with LO. And sometimes I restate that I will never betray our spouses if I think boundaries have been pushed to the point that it needs to be re-said. The frog in the water concern can be a problem for other boundaries and I will take your warning to heart.
Thank you for your advice. It helps to hear a manās perspective. And thank you for your kind words, too.
Speedwagon, I hope you see this. I wonder if I made a mistake last night. My LO had a technology question and I am skilled at what he needed. Last night, I spent an hour texting him to help out. I skipped out on board games with SO and our daughter because I was talking to LO, which is very uncharacteristic of me. My SO knew why I was on my phone rather than playing with my family. He seemed fine last night, supportive even. This morning he is acting strange. We were planning to go to the spa today and I noticed he seemed uninterested so I gave him an out. Now he says he disappointed me. It doesnāt feel like he is talking about the spa, it feels like something bigger. I am beginning to wonder if you men are right that hiding LO contact from SO is the best course. I would love to hear your thoughts.
Update: I am strangely content and secure in my relationship with LO3. After he told me that he intended to be distant so he could focus on his family, the communication increased. We are at our highest level of communication and it has been a week. We just seem to have an open line through two methods of contact and it is so ramped up, I wouldnāt be surprised if there was a phone call today. We are communicating every few hours from morning to night. He initiates most of it, but I do it too. I asked if his efforts to focus on his family were paying off and he said that indeed his family is more stable.
I donāt think we reached the EA level because we arenāt talking about intimate things. Also, I am not hiding it from my SO. We are strategizing our training. He has an event coming up and we are planning his training and learning skills that he can use at his event. We both use the same training tools and I know the toolsā features better. So Iāll start to teach him a feature then one of us has to go and we pick it back up later. Weāve been doing this for a few days now.
Also, I should mention that we got quite flirty and then backed down, too.
Interestingly, my limerent symptoms are minimal. My focus on non-LO stuff is great today! Itās like the lack of uncertainty cleared my mind of insecurities and I donāt feel like I need to think about LO unless Iām communicating with him. Not that I have had much uncertainty with LO3. He has been mostly available throughout this LE. He hasnāt ever been cold either.
I donāt know if these updates are helpful. But I thought I should add it just in case someone benefits.
Speedwagon,
I noticed that you said you are interested in an affair with your LO.
āā¦I want an EA with her. And if I am being totally honest, I probably want a PA though I doubt I could really follow throughā¦ā
I canāt wrap my brain around it, but maybe I am lying to myself. An affair seems like the worst thing that could happen. An affair would devastate a lot of people and you would probably lose both SO and LO. Whereas, if you can maintain an appropriate relationship with LO, you get to keep both of the important ladies and you wonāt hurt anyone. I want the appropriate relationship, at least I think itās what I want.
I canāt figure out why you would want an affair. If you can, please explain what I am not seeing. I would love answers from anyone else, too. Perhaps the wise Limerent Emeritus could help me understand.
@Lovisa
Sure, let me try to explain what I meant by that. I am very sexually attracted to my LO, in fact it is probably my #1 attraction to her. As such I have fantasized much about physical contact with her and how that would would come to be. At a primal level, I want to experience sex with her. But, I don’t think I could follow through on it because I know what is at stake. But it hasn’t even been a temptation anyway because neither of us have pursued each other physically one bit. But if she were all of a sudden a sexually aggressive person towards me, I can’t say it wouldn’t give me pause. Would I go through with it? I would like to think I would not.
But I am also very attracted to her emotionally and I have wanted that connection to her like you have with your LO. But I’m not going to get that either it appears. So now I just need to focus of myself, my wife, and healing from all this
Did that make any sense?
It makes sense. Thank you, Speedwagon.
I wonder if you have the same sexual fantasy block that I have. If I try to have a sexual fantasy about my LO, logic interrupts it with something like, āThis makes no sense, there are no circumstances in which you would be alone in a hotel room with LO.ā I can push the fantasy to a point, but the logic almost always kills it. Not always but almost.
Btw, LO3 told me that he appreciates my commitment to marriage because he likes to believe that he would never give in to temptation, but at least with me, he doesnāt have to worry about that.
Thanks for answering my question.
Lovisa, I find it quite unique what you have with your LO. I am quite envious of it. If it works for you both and your SO is OK with it then I wish you much limerent happiness. I just hope it’s sustainable and you will have to monitor that closely. Don’t let it veer off track too much. Maybe if it ramps up too much, ramp it back down a bit. And above all, keep communication open and honest with both LO and SO.
You are right Speedwagon, I am lucky. I will heed your warning, thank you.
I am so impressed with everyone here, both in sharing personal information and updates, but also in the really great advice and feedback, what a truly remarkable group. I love that there’s all perspectives – guys, girls, limerants and LOs – I learn so much from each of you.
Quick update on my end, it’s only been a little over a week since I’ve realized what was going on with me and that LO really doesn’t have feelings beyond regular friendship. I do have to remind myself of that about 100x a day, but it’s helping me keep perspective. I completely agree that I can’t trust my judgement, but knowing that helps because if I do the opposite of what I want to do, then I know that’s probably the right thing. I’ve committed to not initiating communication – texting especially since it really is the devil – but admit that I did initiate once when there was big company news that was announced (and I was in a weak moment). I managed to keep it minimal though. All in all, I’d say it’s been pretty successful so far, but I think right now I’m in a phase where I’m really on guard, which from experience I know is hard to maintain.
Part of what has shifted for me is although I do think of LO quite a bit still, it’s more tied to my thoughts of limerence overall and processing that in my mind, rather than independently ruminating and indulging in fantasies of LO. The psychology of limerence is really fascinating, at least when you’re not in the thick of it! It’s funny how so many songs have now taken on new meaning to where I’m like, that guy’s in the middle of LE. In fact, I just listened to Franz Ferdinand’s “Tonight” album again yesterday and I swear every song seemed related to it, maybe that’s why I like them so much.
Now that I’m aware of what this is, I’m looking back and realize I definitely had an LE three years ago so I’ll officially call that one LO1, but I’ve probably had more in my life, my SO was probably one actually. L01 ended really badly because I essentially disclosed. I was psychologically devastated because I really thought the feeling was mutual, and then the pandemic started so my mental state really deteriorated. I wish I knew then what I know now! But at least I have that memory fresh in mind to help with my current LE when thoughts of disclosing come to mind and taking to heart the advice here. Anyway, I’m grateful for the new tools I have now with this community that are already helping. A big thank you!
@Jason M
“I am so impressed with everyone here, both in sharing personal information and updates, but also in the really great advice and feedback, what a truly remarkable group. I love that thereās all perspectives ā guys, girls, limerants and LOs ā I learn so much from each of you.”
I agree, this is so lovely! I think just like Dr L made a silk purse out of a sow’s ear with his limerence by creating this lifeline for limerents and SOs of limerents, all of us sufferers are trying to make some good out of this by hopefully helping some of our fellow limerents. We help and are helped at the same time. Such a positive thing!
There seems to be a common theme about how men perceive relationship/friendship with women and how they perceive it. With myself, Jason, and Rufio, we all have LOs that act, in our perception, attracted to us while in reality they are only enjoying friendship. My LO keeps insisting that everything she did was out of friendship but if I were to describe her actions to my wife, or maybe an objective 3rd person, they would have said she is acting inappropriate for a married woman towards a married man. There just seems to be this head and heart space that women can dwell in that they can pursue the closeness of a romantic relationship without actually having the romantic attraction. I don’t think I have that ability and for myself it is very confusing to understand it. I truly believe my LO when she says it was all friendship motivated. But I don’t actually have any true woman friends that act that way towards me, and me back to them. My LO thought it perfectly normal to initiate off work hours texting, to engage in it for hours on end, and call it all friendship but then act surprised I didn’t view it that way also.
Not trying to make judgements with this, I just find it very fascinating and notice the pattern. Especially among workplace LOs.
Also…no new update today in my ongoing drama. I think that is a good sign.
Speedy,
For what it’s worth…
When LO #4 started confiding in me after her BF allegedly cheated on and assaulted her, I asked a female co-worker if she’d be concerned if a casual acquaintance of her husband started confiding in with this information.
Her response was, “Hell, yes! I’d be concerned.” My co-worker said that a woman in her situation shouldn’t be confiding in any man. That’s what sisters and girlfriends are for. She went on to say that for LO #4 to confide in a married man (me) was “way inappropriate” and it was “too easy for that to go sideways.”
And, yet, when I disclosed to LO #4 that I’d become attracted to her, she said that she had no idea. Actually, I’d been attracted to her for awhile.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-to-get-rid-of-limerence/#comment-1341
That is a fantastic example. Thanks. We each see what we want to see in our interactions. My LO saw friendship, I saw romance. An objective 3rd party would say it was neither.
I think that just has a lot to do with society and how they view interactions between men and women. I have people accuse my manners towards women being seen as flirting or trying to get my foot in the door with a woman. As if holding the door open, helping a woman with something she can’t reach on the shelf in the grocery store is flirting. And the glaring double standard of how men interact with women versus how women interact with men is that if I did any of those things for a 65 year old woman versus a 35 year old no one would think anything of it.
I think women, at least in the US, due politics, agendas and the such, get a almost limitless breath of freedom with very little to no consequences for courting the edge of flirting and then falling back on friendship. I am not saying all women do it but they certainly get the freedom to do so. Maybe your LO isn’t getting the attention from husband and so she casually flirts with you for the attention she seeks but then backs down if there seem to be some consequences for her actions coming. Like your disclosure of your feelings for her.
Men on the other hand are watched at from all sides. I am constantly on a daily basis thinking before each thing I say or action I take around all my female co-workers. Even before the glimmer with LO. And very much so after. Because one complaint whether valid or not to HR and …..
And I don’t make these statements as generalizations, but as things I have witnessed either first hand or read. I mean despicable women have filed false accusations of rape and innocent men have suffered. Now that’s either a conscious bias on the part of society, and unconscious bias, or flaws in our actual laws. But I am getting off on a tangent, sorry.
I was just mistaking comfort for attraction. Now, I think I am mistaking comfort for friendship. As someone on the other forum put it my situation sounded more like an “acquaintance +” a little more than co-workers but not quite friends.
I am not sure anymore, my limerent brain always wants more so I have a hard time just being happy with the attention I receive. I have to pick it apart and find flaw and reasons that she isn’t actually acting like a friend. She is acting perfectly reasonable for what one would call a “work friend”.
I thought I had made some real progress with seeing things clearly last week but I guess not as much as I had hoped. I’m just tired of feeling like I lost something I’ve never had.
Song of the Day: “Something’s Wrong With Me” – Austin Roberts (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsDWP9gmgVs
Limerence captured in 3:31.
I loved this song since it came out. I was 16 and wouldn’t encounter LO #1 for another 6 years.
Clip of the Day: “Ally McBeal”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXhkRFCfz8k&list=PL_78XrcH0-YVHq5E4KACbviY5hOezHiiu&index=31
This one’s for Speedy. They’re both good but he can skip to 1:45.
@Lovisa
I do think a lot of it was that yes. It hasn’t been 20 years but probably around 3-4 so far with little in between. But I would never intend to, as in long term, have an affair because that’s just a shitty thing to do to someone. But I am sure some nice young lady paying me attention and being sweet to me went to my head because I am not getting that at home. My wife is not cruel or we don’t hate each other it just seems like romantically and sexually we have drifted apart.
But as I read here in the blog about the “rescuer” limerent I really could see myself. That gave me some purpose to help her in a bad time in her life. And she was very appreciate and was kind to me for helping her. She never really came right out and said it but I could feel it in her words. I think she was shy to say something direct. And I think that is because she has been around a lot of men that only look and her outside beauty and are after less than her heart. So I think once she knew my intentions to help her were genuine and was more relaxed with me it just made the limerence worse. In fact I would say the glimmer happened around that time.
Oddly enough while I feel both a genuine platonic love there is also a romantic one that I sometimes can’t repress. But I have never had any sexual thoughts of her despite her being a very attractive beautiful young lady.
So to answer your question yes I think that he would very much appreciate your company. If you have known him for as long as you have and he hasn’t developed any limerence for you than I think it would be alright. I’m sure he would very much appreciate.
Song of the day (and probably for the rest of my life) I Won’t Stand In Your Way by Chester See
https://youtu.be/WpFmlI1Ri18
Thanks Adam, Iām sad to hear that you and Mrs. Adam have drifted apart. I really think learning about the love path from Marriage Helper would help.
This is from my notesā¦
Love Path
1. Attraction (think PIES- Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual)
2. Acceptance (Do you accept me?)
3. Attachment (Will you be there for me when I need you?)
4. Aspiration (Common long-term goals)
Good luck! And thanks for the advice. I donāt know if LO2 is limerent for me but definitely attracted to me.
Lovisa,
Iām glad I could be your accountability buddy. I donāt know what Iām worth as Iāve just gone in the wrong direction myself the past couple weeks.
I talked to LO for half the day today and it was fun. She suggested several of us go out for drinks after. As I was leaving earlier than everyone else and they were still trying to make up their minds on when and where she said she would text me and let me know.
Here I sit. Waiting. Iām not sure which outcome would be better. When she said āhow about tonight?ā I literally said āoh noā out loud and she laughed because she had no idea why I said that.
3 outcomes: 1. we go and it is fun in a group setting and I get a bit limierent.
2. It gets canceled and I feel really down for a bit but probably better in the long run.
3. She wants to go even though it is only us. She seemed adamant about doing something as she said she has been bored all week. Worst case scenario?
We shall see.
Gulp
I am speechless. That is a tough one. My heart goes out to you.
I made it friend. Not much worse for the wear it would appear that moment. How are you doing over there?
Iām glad you got through that.
Iām thinking about LO3 pretty much constantly. At least every hour.
Did you see when Adam said that as long as drinking alcohol isnāt interfering with his responsibilities, he doesnāt see a reason to avoid it? (Thatās how I remember it anyway). I think I am doing that now with day dreaming. But, like Limerent Emeritus says, the frequency can cause problems (he was talking about texting but I think it applies to day dreaming). If there is nothing else going on, my thoughts go to LO or this site or running. Usually LO. I think I am just a person who obsesses about things. I was obsessing about being the perfect wife and mother for many years until depression caught up to me. I really did nothing for myself. Even when I took care of my health, it wasnāt for me, it was so I could be the fun mom with energy to swim alongside them rather than sit on the edge and watch. But when you lose yourself serving others and something terrible happens, you wonder what it was all for. And you realize that your efforts make no difference in the lives of others. ā¦ just a minute, LO just reached out and of course I must respond. He said my eyes are gorgeous. I will be high all day. I canāt even think now. Sorry for the distraction, Rufio. I donāt remember where I was going with that thought. I am dizzy.
@rufio
It will be VERY hard for you to resist a chance to not see her if something goes ahead. Yet, the very best thing is for you to say, in ANY of the three scenarios, sorry can’t join you (or you all this time) because I’m busy. That is also you taking your personal power back to decide (rather than letting LO call the shots). I think Dr L once said that if it happens to you rather than you making a decision about it, you lose a bit of the satisfaction of deciding with purpose (I’m not saying exactly as he did, and he has a better way with words, but that is the general gist of it).
Having said that, it I would not judge you if you went along – it is so hard to turn down the chance to bask in our LOs’ glimmer. I have taken more opportunities than I should have to do so.
I’ve bailed on LO three times this week. A better scenario would be for me to just say no outright rather than bail on plans, but I’m working towards that. I have to say, it did feel like a let down and disappointment was acute, but by the third time, it was easier … and I don’t know if this is related but I haven’t been thinking about LO too much the last short while. Will this last? I don’t know. But I feel hopeful.
Well, I went and it was a small group of us who chatted for about 3 and a half hours.
Results were expected. Had fun, feeling a bit empty this morning.
I donāt know what I was hoping for but I didnāt get it. It is like trying to rope the wind. Could have been worse I suppose.
Limmy, I admire your strength. my LO is leaving in a month or so and Iām just kinda soaking it up. for better or worse. It is stupid because I know she thinks of me as a friend since only a few of us were invited. It is just never enough. It is insane but I want her to tell me Iām her favorite co-worker as she is mine. Lol.
Or am I wanting her to be obsessed with me as I am with her? Yeah, this is probably closer to the truth and why it will always be an empty endeavor.
For me, I want my LO to feel the same as I do. I have fantasized many times about the great mutual disclosure. It never happened, instead I disclosed, she acted shocked and confused, then angry, and insisted she feels only friendship. And now I am in damage control mode. Isn’t limerence fun?
But, good for you for going as a friend. Since she is leaving in a month you know you have NC coming. This woman genuinely sees you as a friend and I think it was good to support that. I bet you would have felt worse this morning had you not went because she would have felt let down and you would miss out on an opportunity to hang out with someone you enjoy and care a lot about.
I think you made the right choice, you chose friendship, just keep up the right perspective on your LE with it.
@rufio
“I admire your strength.”
Not strength. Just that I am further along in this “getting over LO” journey then you are. I’m not sure I could have done it even two months ago. Now, it is less torturous than for most of you still in a very strong phase of LE. You’ll get there!
“my LO is leaving in a month or so and Iām just kinda soaking it up.”
You know, I would too. Its a life experience in technicolor. And if there is a clear end in sight …
“am I wanting her to be obsessed with me as I am with her? Yeah, this is probably closer to the truth”
This is the truth for so many of us. The desire to be desired. I really think that is the underlying impetus. The fantasy of mutual limerence, mutual disclosure, ecstatic union! It would feel SO good. The ultimate fantasy.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy the month, milk it for all it is worth, roll with the punches, and may your recovery after she is gone be swift!
Speed,
The fantasies are the worst. I think that is what has drug me back down this hole. I even dreamed about her last night.
I follow your story closely because now I have kind of become invested in many people here. It is such a useful writing exercise to vent and tell my story as well.
We were all a little tipsy by the end and started talking about how sad we were she was leaving. I got dangerously close to saying to much but I told her I thought she was a very special person and how much I would miss seeing her. She got all teary eyed and said we were going to make her cry.
I also told her I was going to write her a sappy goodbye note(which I already have, yikes). I don’t know why I felt the need to say that instead of just giving it to her on her last day. I almost drunk texted her on the uber ride home but I somehow remembered your advice and nixed that idea. I want to text her so bad today just to say thanks for inviting everyone out but I MUST NOT.
I wanted something personal from her but everything was in the group context. Again, probably for the best.
I did get a hug as we all left though. Probably where the dream came from! Haha
I’m glad it was a good time and you didn’t text. Leave a good parting, hug and all, alone. Texting is a whole new rabbit hole.
I hope the next 30 days go well. You are single, correct? No SO? Makes your dynamic easier to navigate even if the LE is still intense at times.
Yes, I am single. I haven’t been in dating game since last year. I recently got some dating apps because I thought just meeting some women would help me with this whole LO situation but it is incredible how I have no interest in almost anyone else right now. I would almost feel guilty for “cheating” on someone who I don’t even date. Again, insanity.
Lol! Rufio, I have had the same cheating sensation and when it happened, I felt like I was being unfaithful to LO not SO when I gave another man my attention. Oh, that is bad. I will be pondering this today. Wow, I am questioning myself now. Thanks for making me face something that I was ignoring.
Oh no! Maybe I am a narcissistic LO! Iām a monster.
I understand the lack of interest in other women. I used to have the hots for all kinds of women but since my LE, I see my LO as the purest example of beauty and sexiness. But oddly, my attraction to my SO increased as well throughout all this. My wife is 48 and she has never looked as good to be honest. There are also about 3 other women in my life that I would say are a “crush” right now. But the gap in sexual desire between these crushes and LO is wide.
Every now and again a woman comes along that captures our attention more than others. Keep at it, I think that woman will be out there.
When LO leaves I think you will find the right thing to say. Being single you have a wider option here. You want to say enough to make her know you thought she was special, but not too much that it feels awkward to her. Keep it friendship focused because she is engaged so you want to respect that as well.
Or you could go scorched earth, admit your undying love, beg her not to marry the wrong guy, and sweep her off her feet because that is how she MUST actually feel for you too. She is just waiting for you to make the move. Works in the movies, right?
Rufio, feel free to share the sappy note here if you want it vetted by a female.
LO hugs are the best, mmmmmmm. You are so lucky!
Well, the note probably has to many specific things in it to share publicly on the forums. The chances of someone I know seeing it here are like .000000001% but if they did they would know who I was immediately. We have a small company. I would consider sharing it with you or another privately though if that is something that is possible.
That makes sense, Rufio. I donāt think there is any way for any of us to have a private conversation. You have good judgment and a few months to edit the note if you change your mind.
Update #4. LO made somewhat of an unexpected move yesterday. If you remember, LO is away for the week with her family at a family member funeral. The day she left she sent the angry email about texting. I told her no more texting. Well, yesterday, 2 days later, she emailed me unexpectedly about a work topic that could have waited easily until next week. It felt like an excuse topic to reach out. I emailed back a short to the point reply that did not need a response, yet LO responded and then I responded and then things changed topic and about 10 emails later I realized…she’s chatting me up over email now. I guess with texting off the table, email is next best thing? I cut off the email string by not responding.
Good news, she seems to be over her angry moment and that is a relief. Bad news, she apparently still wants some connection with me outside the office walls even though I disclosed.
Thoughts on this?
I will say, 5 days past disclosure, of how much of a relief disclosure has been on the LE. In the long run I am hoping it was the best move because I was not functioning well before with the level of uncertainty.
This sounds like someone that is also on some level emotionally invested in your relationship. There is no other reason after the texting thing she would do something like that over email. Purposeful contact. I would start to be wary of what she is trying to do and why now that you have disclosed. She knows you have feelings for her and is “poking the bear”.
She might have feelings for you as well and having a hard time controlling them. It would explain the anger over the texting thing and possibly protecting her marriage.
It could be innocent or it could not be. Post disclosure makes me raise an eyebrow. Look both ways at this intersection my friend.
Rufio, I donāt think she comprehends how her actions effect Speedwagon. She is making an attempt to repair the relationship because she liked it. Even if he tells her that back and forth emailing is hard on his emotions, she wonāt understand. Sheāll think, āHmmmm, I donāt want to hurt himā¦ if texting and email is hard for him, maybe I can just pop into his office for a chat or maybe social media.ā She is just trouble-shooting. She wants the connection they had. She is asking herself, āHow can we both get what we want?ā She doesnāt understand that there is no solution to this unless Speedwagon is willing to tolerate his attraction like you are doing with your LO. I think what she wants isā¦
Speedwagon, can you live with feelings of attraction and not act on them? Can you still be the attentive limerent that I enjoy?
“Post disclosure makes me raise an eyebrow.”
Me too. It makes me more prone to disbelieve that she had no idea. It is not a honorable (or kind) response, if someone disclosed to her and she did not like them. A bit of a tease. Or a power trip. Or wanting her ego fed a bit more at the expense of someone else’s feelings.
Sorry, Speed, I know you probably idealize you LO, but I’m not feeling a lot of respect for her approach right now.
Speedwagon, I thought you might like a female perspective on this one.
I think she was asking the question, āAre we okay?ā She still wants to be your friend. The back and forth probably gave her relief. You shutting it down hurt her, but it was the right thing to do. You set a new tone for the relationship going forward. You told her, āI will tolerate a little friendship from you, but it wonāt be like it was.ā You are not willing to give her emotional connection because she is not willing to give youā¦ I guess I donāt know what you wanted from her. Mutual limerence?
Doesn’t every limerent want mutual limerence?
I am fine continuing a texting relationship if that is what she wants now that I disclosed. Disclosure let a lot of air out of my LE balloon. I just don’t want her freaking out on me if I send a certain text that all of a sudden seems threatening. That is why no texting might be best policy if she worried about her SO.
I think she can hide email a lot better. But email is a clunky way to “banter” back and forth.
I might just ask her what she wants moving forward? Whether she wants any kind of friendship outside the office walls or not?
I don’t know…maybe I give it a few good weeks and see how much she actually pursues me? Maybe it all just fizzles. That is probably the best strategy. If she pursues, then I deal with it. If not, then I let it lie.
Kind of. Every limerent wants mutual attraction, but once youāve experienced the dark intrusive thoughts, you donāt wish limerence on anyone, not even your LO.
At least that is how I feel. The intrusive thoughts with my LO2 were awful!
Speedy,
Maybe she just wants to make sure that she didn’t sever the connection and burn any bridges.
3 months after I thought we’d said goodbye, LO #4 came out of the woodwork over something bogus. After I went to war with her, she accused me of stalking her online. A week fter I told another mod I was leaving LO #4’s site, I got a FB friend request from her. We’d known for over 5 years.
You don’t know what she’s thinking. She probably doesn’t know what she’s thinking. You dropped a grenade on her.
“She probably doesnāt know what sheās thinking. You dropped a grenade on her.”
I think this is a true statement. I’ve had months to think about what is going on inside me and how to handle it. She is just now becoming aware that maybe something is going on with her.
Giving her space and the ability to control “us”, whatever us is, seems like a good strategy right now.
*Lovisa throwing her hands in the air*
We have been through this, Speedwagon. She wants closeness from you but not romance.
ā She is just now becoming aware that maybe something is going on with her.ā
The something that is going on is not a desire for romance. She lost something when you disclosed. She lost a safe, close, likable friend. She wants him back. But she doesnāt want to hurt him. She is trying to figure out if you two can be friends.
Hypothetically speakingā¦ what if LO wants you close but just for friendship. That might look like this,
Conversations
Inside jokes
texting if you can handle it (sheāll be hesitant because she doesnāt want to hurt you or lead you on)
Knowing glances across the room (these glances mean innocent things like āsomething that happened amuses me did you notice it too?ā Not, āI want you.ā)
Maybe an occasional hug ( she might initiate a hug at some point. It doesnāt mean romance to her).
I will be very direct because you need to hear it.
She wants an appropriate friendship.
She does not want romance or sex.
I am sorry to be so harsh with you. I want you to keep yourself sane and safe. It looked like you were going the wrong way and I felt obligated to warn you.
But your reaction makes sense. Men tend to overestimate interest and women tend to underestimate it. I think we are hardwired that way.
On this website, I am learning so much about the differences in how men and women perceive things.
I hope this is helpful and not hurtful. I am still on your side.
“Giving her space and the ability to control āusā, whatever us is, seems like a good strategy right now.”
“The stability of a control system is determined to a large extent by its response to a suddenly applied signal, or transient. [sounds pretty much like what happened] If such a signal causes the system to overcorrect itself, a phenomenon called hunting may occur in which the system first overcorrects itself in one direction and then overcorrects itself in the opposite direction. Because hunting is undesirable, measures are usually taken to correct it. The most common corrective measure is the addition of damping somewhere in the system. Damping slows down system response and avoids excessive overshoots or overcorrections.” – https://www.britannica.com/technology/control-system#ref199539
Your LO is “hunting.” The questions are is there a solid baseline she can lock on to and how good her “damping,” is. The overcorrections in either direction can be large and frequent. They’re worse if you make changes such that she can’t lock in on things.
She won’t be stable until you become stable. Otherwise, you’ll chase each other and the system can become unstable.
Thats a very “engineering” response to a very “un-engineering” problem. Not sure what any of it means in practical terms.
I am more stable emotionally right now than I have been in 10 months. I can be whatever she needs me to be for her to become stable.
@ Lovisa
I think you misunderstood. I don’t think she wants sex or romance in the least bit. That ship has sailed. That’s not what I meant by “us”. By “us” I just mean some level of intimate friendship, whether that just happens at the office or outside the office as well. I will give her control over the nature of it.
Speedwagon, I misunderstood, sorry. Thanks for clarifying. I am learning so much from you.
The funny thing to me is Speed has what I wish I could have with my LO. Something special between us as friends. Perhaps it is there but nothing like texting and emailing a lot 1v1. No real closeness besides a few talks about our personal lives.
Sometimes I wonder how perceptive she is though. I wonder how obvious I am as well. I must not be to bad because she is really comfortable with me in personal space and body language.
What you wish you had though will then not be enough and you will want the romance too. I didn’t text with LO for a long time and things were easier but then we slowly ramped up texting and finally had some intense texting sessions that created that feeling of closeness to her in me. It was horrible enough that it put me on the fast track to disclosure. And then I find out all these texting sessions were in front of her husband too?!? I feel like such a schmuck!
What still gets me is my misread of her body language also. She just seemed so taken by me at times in her body language. But that was just her comfortability with me, and not physical attraction.
“What still gets me is my misread of her body language also. She just seemed so taken by me at times in her body language. But that was just her comfortability with me, and not physical attraction.”
Yeah, I’m almost certain there is some minuscule level of attraction but a lot of stuff is unconscious. She doesn’t even realize she was doing it around you and it is not something she wants to happen since she is married.
As I’ve come to grips with my situation and gotten more comfortable I’ve paid attention and done some little experiments. I talked to my LO and another person for over an hour yesterday at work and she mimicked my body posture almost the entire time. Hands behind back, then leaning against a wall. Hmm, 2 for 2. Finally I started winging my hands and hitting them together. A couple minutes later she started doing it.
I just kinda laughed to myself. It doesn’t mean anything but what else was I going to do while we were talking about rescue dogs and killing a Friday afternoon waiting to go out. I’m a loon, lol.
Very interesting experiment, Rufio. Thanks for sharing.
Speed asked: “Doesnāt every limerent want mutual limerence?”
I think so, yes. And also, it is probably the most dangerous scenario of all. For me, when it seemed like mutual limerence, my LO was irresistible. When I no longer felt he cared as much, I could then begin to let him go. I think for him too, when he thought I no longer cared as much, he could let go of me. But who starts first?
On my part, once I had decided to hit the brakes, I proceeded to hide any desire I had for him so well, I think it would have been impossible for him to think I cared. I constantly showed off a wonderful relationship with SO and praised my SO as a good husband and great father, I told LO often I was busy with my family and children, if I did something special for him I told him I did it for other friends too so he wouldn’t think he was getting special treatment, I personally never initiated any hugs, and if he did, I never lingered (I emotionally blocked myself during any hugs so they felt meaningless to me), I took every opportunity I had to obliquely point out to him basic incompatibilities between us, and I even supported him in dating others. Objectively speaking, I was a caring friend, but nothing more.
The only place I seriously erred was the texting. This will NOT surprise any of you, considering all our texting woes. The content was never inappropriate, although very entertaining and witty, but the frequency! I never texted any “friend” that often. I knew even while I was doing it, it wasn’t “normal”. I think that was my – our – biggest slip up. Sometimes I think limerents texting is like rats hitting the lever to get intermittent treats!
But that too, is finally easing up. I am beginning to be able to resist (more often than not) reaching out by text, and I’ve been able to turn down opportunities to connect in real life too.
Now that I have tried it, I think if you “pretend” you don’t care, it becomes a virtuous cycle, and they begin to care less, and then you get the feedback, and then you actually care less, and so on and so forth, and eventually, you both don’t care so much. But this is hard to carry through to that conclusion because it is the total opposite of mutual limerence, our deepest heart’s desire. The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. My approach cultivates indifference (eventually).
All this requires that you be very good at hiding your emotions. Both from SO and LO. I can’t wait till all this ends and I can stop hiding so much.
āI think if you āpretendā you donāt care, it becomes a virtuous cycle, and they begin to care less, and then you get the feedback, and then you actually care less, and so on and so forth, and eventually, you both donāt care so much.ā
Limmy that sounds logical, but I feel like it could create uncertainty. This pretending not to care technique seems to be working for you. It will be interesting to see if youāve found your cure.
@Lovisa
Oh my, it sounds like you are having a tough run of it today. That dizzy high might be nice for awhile but it always ends in a crash at least for me.
I am having some of the same problems. Iām not sure how I lost this much ground. Now Iām having intrusive thoughts about messing up our friendship when we parted on a hug it makes no sense.
I find myself jealous of my friends that get to be in the same office as her and a little sad she doesnāt come see me as often as I find an excuse to go over there.
All this on a Sunday and she is the first thought in my head upon waking. The wind was blowing hard earlier and I imagined her somewhere standing in it starting toward me.
You mentioned swimming, reminded me of the a nice little mantra via finding Nemo, ājust keep swimming, just keep swimmingā. I hope we can both find some way to feel a little better today.
Feels like quick sand sometimes though.
Rufio, it actually does make sense to me that you feel like you are losing ground. I like your ājust keep swimmingā attitude. And I am happy to talk about LOs if you prefer, but, in the just keep swimming spirit, I want to try something. Letās talk about something else that gets our attention.
Iāll start. I teach Sunday school to toddlers. Today we had a new little girl who wanted some extra attention. She snuggled into me and didnāt want to let go. It was so sweet. She stopped crying, but still wanted to snuggle. I loved every second of it.
Your turn.
LOL, ummmm, I am enjoying adult beverages tonight with friends!I don’t have anything s good as yours.
Lol, lucky, you get to hang out with adults. Iām jealous.
I was at the campus where my boy is going to college. We (his mother and I) went to visit him and meet his lady friend. We had went to the store to get him some supplies for his dorm (I got me some beer too hehe). On a trip back into the dorm from the car with supplies (I was alone) I hear LO’s name. There was a group of young ladies a few cars over talking. I look up from the trunk of the car like it would actually be LO hundreds of miles away at a college on a Sunday. š
I just stood there getting mad at myself for actually being stupid enough to think that it was her. Just someone speaking her name and I get stupid excited. Needless to say I wish I’d liquor not beer cause …. but we socialized and I tried to be upbeat. Our boy’s lady friend is a nice young lady and in some ways reminds me of LO. I dunno what to think of this weekend. I got a night out with the missus but got reminded of LO. *shrugs*
Adam, thanks for sharing. Iām glad you went out with Mrs. Adam. Your reaction to hearing LOās name makes sense. Donāt beat yourself up about it.
Update #5. Saw LO for first time in 6 days and for first time since her angry email. We got about 20 min of talk time. She apologized for the angry email, I told her I deserved it. Interestingly she did ask why this happened so I told her about hitting mid life, having the attention of a younger beautiful girl, liking her attention and wanting to pursue knowing her more outside the parameters of the office…yadda yadda yadda. She astutely smiled and said it was about my ego. She hit the nail on head with that one. Of course as we all know there is much more to the depths of my depravity and my desire for her but she need not know that.
As of now, she seemed comfortable with me, not angry with me or creeped out by me and I think we are good moving forward. I hope so, but these things tend not to be so simple or easy. More crap might come.
Uncertainty gone…hoping limerence will fade.
Thanks for sharing, Speedwagon. The social experiment that is your life is absolutely fascinating and educational. Iām enjoying your story. It sounds like both of you are in a good place.
Thanks Lovisa, but I feel pretty down right now about it all. There feels like a finality now, and I came out the loser. Our texting sessions are done, and I feel sad that I won’t have an out of office relationship with her anymore. It just feels like she is now just another one of my employees. I am sure our in office relationship will stay warm, and I will enjoy it, but quite honestly, I wanted more than that and I wanted her to want more than that.
But in the long run this is good. It has given me relief from the craziness and I just need to push through loss now.
Hang in there bud. I know this feeling and it is really brutal. I’ve been smack dab in the middle of it for a few days now. I had one good week when I felt like I had accepted the situation and closure. Now, like you I just would like more and wish she wanted more.
Nothing for it but to work on your mental state. I’m trying very hard to fix this from the inside out. I hope you have some luck with it as well.
Your response makes sense, Speedwagon. You not only lost hope of reciprocation, you lost the limerent highs. It sounds like you recognize that you are going through a mourning process. Good awareness.
Thank you for sharing Speedwagon. Being that LO is miles and miles away from me hurts. But hearing yours and others’ accounts of communication with your LOs has helped to stop myself every time I want to text or call LO. I know it’s a dangerous road to travel if in at all LO would even respond. So I have never contacted her since she left for her new job. Doesn’t mean I don’t think about it every day. But I need to let her live her new life and not disrupt it. But what I wouldn’t do to hear her voice again.
Currently strikes a poignant chord with me, Adam. I really feel for you. You are being noble. It hurts. It gets better with time and no contact, so Iām toldā¦.
I hope that you are right. The intrusive thoughts seem to be getting worse than they are better. I almost can’t think any thought without it turning into a memory or reminder of LO even when I am doing some of the most simplest of daily tasks. I’m trying to be optimistic, and quiet the dread I feel that I will never get LO and I know that is not a good outcome as it is already effecting my life, my job and my marriage.
I have experienced what I now know to be limerence for my LO for about three years, Adam. The intrusive thoughts have sometimes been overwhelming. Your experiences are mine are different in several ways but I have been gradually squeezing LO from my life. Itās awful, of course. I have read the āno contactā blogs many times.
There are plenty of long wordy comments on this forum but I honestly feel, having read through your messages again, that you will recover from the dreadful time you are having. It will get better in time and the suffering will fade.
Hey you two. I used transference successfully. I was really desperate to get rid of the intrusive thoughts about LO2. You might consider it. It took about a month. Things are still going well with LO3.
Good luck!
Sorry – your experiences *and mine
Thank you for the reassurance Frederico, I needed that. I will try to continue to be positive about the future and my relationships. They say everyone in your life is either a blessing or a lesson. I guess LO seemed like a blessing (and sometimes still does in my head) but was really a lesson. I just hope it doesn’t take a long time for me to learn it.
Lovisa I am trying to direct my feelings for LO to my wife and try to rekindle that relationship before I loose it. Thank you for the suggestion of transference. It is difficult because I put LO on such a high pedestal while neglecting my marriage but I think if I can stay positive I can get past this. No matter if am forgiven or not and this marriage continues on or not, I don’t know.
Read and very carefully noted, Adam.
(Hugs, Lovisa)
That makes sense. Best of luck to both of you and your SOs.
I’ve had a better week. LO has been very warm this week. Might have something to do with everyone getting sentimental over the Friday night drinks. I know what the end game is and even found out she might be leaving a little sooner but my brain is just giving me such a hard time while trying to enjoy it.
Today while three of us talked about our time working together and she said she remembered thinking ” i like talking to this guy”(speaking the other friend ). That kind of stung as I was standing there and she’s never said that about me or to me. It is actually stupid because I know she likes talking to me and we have our own type of interactions. It is just so damn hard to be rational. Anyway, ended the day with nice conversation and I have to let that be enough..somehow.
@Lovisa “I donāt know if these updates are helpful. But I thought I should add it just in case someone benefits.”
All your posts help! Thank you for them. It sounds like you are doing better as well and I love to hear it. Thank you for all the support and thoughts. I look forward to them every time I open the site.
Thanks Rufio! Itās sweet of you to say that you look forward to my posts. I appreciate your feedback.
Iām glad things are warm now. I hope you can enjoy the present moments with LO. Letās put off the worry about the future. Just stick those thoughts in a box and set them on a shelf for now so that you can enjoy your LO friend. When she is gone, we can open that box together. By āwe,ā I mean the LwL community. You are not wrestling this limerent beast alone. You have a lot of people who have taken interest in your story. I suspect I speak for Speedy, Limmy, and many others when I say that I am hopeful we hear about a lovely single girl who catches your eye after LO leaves. But whether that happens or not, for now, I would like to see you enjoy the present.
It makes sense that hearing her speak fondly about another man hurt your feelings. That would hurt me too. Iām glad you are a decent person with good self awareness because youāll bounce back from that quickly.
Thanks for the update and kind words of encouragement.
I can totally understand that Rufio. I remember when I heard LO was seeing someone (she was single when I met her) and my mind was immediately met with jealousy. Seeing attention she gave me before directed at another man really did hurt. But I needed to realize however I saw LO in my eyes about me was all in my head. And that because of her previous romantic history she needed someone that could care for her and her daughters. Something I could not do in the present. But that didn’t mean that in the over a year they have been together that wasn’t something I struggled to do.
I was visiting her on the last day that she worked this job. I took the day off and traveled down to her location to spend the day there. At one point the man that she is seeing came to visit her. Because she is a single mother and it wasn’t school year her daughter and a friend of her daughter was there at work with LO. Him and LO talked for a bit and then he left. He came back shortly and had brought them all snow cones. (This was in the middle of summer and hot.) And that really helped me accept that this man was good for her. Don’t think I still didn’t want to be in his shoes but ….. that’s life.
And I agree with you about Lovisa’s posts. I always looked forward to them and her heart is kind and her words are touching. I’m very glad to have found this community. It has helped a great deal.
Aww Adam, you make me feel so appreciated. Thank you for your kind words.
I enjoyed learning a little more about your experience with LO. I have a couple of questions, please only answer if you are comfortable sharing, k? Itās just to satisfy my curiosity, nothing important.
1. Did she know you took the day off to be with her on her last day? If not, what did she think you were doing at her location that day?
2. How long was she in your head before she left the job?
3. Did she display some of the symptoms that Rufio and Speedwagon saw in their LOs?
4. Is she just a friendly person or did she give you special treatment?
Itās really okay if you donāt feel like sharing. Iām just curious, but your privacy is more important to me than satisfying my curiosity, so please feel free to say something like, āUm, thatās a little personal, Lovisa.ā
Hang in there. You are strong and unselfish. Use those skills and you will get through this rough phase.
1. Yes. She called me the day she gave her supervisor her 2 week notice. And I told her that I was going to plan to take a vacation day on her last day to visit her. And thanked her that she personally called me to tell me she was leaving.
2. About a year. I’ve know LO for over 2 years now. But strangely when I had to work with her in person for about 4 months (per the owner of the company so I had no choice) I just saw her as a nice lady that made the mess at work we got told to clean up (invoicing and billing mostly) easier than if I had worked on it with anyone else. I would say glimmer happened around a year after I first met her. After we stopped working in person together. So I think it was that the more I got to know her the more I fell for her.
3. Not really no. If she knew I fancied her it was something she never voiced thinking/knowing. I mostly tried my best to be professional yet friendly. Though if the entire office there where she worked knew I had a “crush” on LO I’d imagine she did too.
This kind of tangent but it reminded me of a time when I was working there with her and someone mentioned that LO was going to Mexico for vacation. Someone said “LO is going to get married!” and I looked her and was like “No! Don’t break an old man’s heart.” And LO laughed and said “Don’t worry. I’m not getting married Adam” and then my supervisor goes “But she is going to cheat on you.” To which I said “No! That breaks my heart even worse!” So I think it was definitely common knowledge how I felt about her.
4. She’s just a very friendly and caring person. So no she remained professional yet friendly too. If anything I gave her special treatment even though I tried not to. Like in talking with another gal that worked there I found out what coffee shop and drink LO liked and the next day got it for her, but also got something for the other four people there too so I didn’t look like I was just favoring her. But then my supervisor (who works there with her when she was there) told me one day I brought assorted donuts for everyone and LO expressed she liked sprinkle donuts the best. He said the next day you brought a dozen sprinkle donuts. š I subconsciously must have done it because I don’t remember doing that. And I bought her a Christmas gift in 2021. And then last year I bought her and her gentleman friend a Christmas gift. I bought them a set of touch bracelets.
I have no one else really to talk about this with. And it’s still a touchy subject at home so it is nice to have some people to talk about it with that understand. So you can ask all the questions you want Lovisa. It helps me to speak out loud, as it were, to someone helps me understand my own dilemma much better.
Aww, you two warm my heart so much! I love reading your posts!
Adam, I love your stories, keep them coming. I understand how it feels like you canāt talk to anyone else about this stuff. I think that is what draws most of us here. I am soooo lucky to have a sister who I can talk to about anything. But, honestly, part of me worries that Iāll anger her someday and all my secrets will come spilling out of her, so I like this website because it feels safe.
Thanks for answering my questions. You had a cute relationship with LO. I bet she loved it.
Rufio, I love that pact you made with LO! Adorable.
I want to tell you guys something funny that happened, but no one in my real world would get it. I was doing a hard run the other day and my my inner coach actually said, āCome on Lovisa, you got this.ā I called myself Lovisa in real life, bahahaha. Lovisa is not my real name obviously, but thatās what I called myself. Hilarious! I had this thought afterwards, āThat is so funny! I have to tell Rufio.ā Then I laughed again because I realized thatās not his real name either. I donāt know why I thought that was so funny.
Thanks for your posts, guys.
*Eye roll* You called yourself an old manā¦lol The Lovisa family is one year older and have been married one year longer than the Adam family.
Adam,
Acceptance is such a good thing. Iām now actively trying to be my old self around my LO. How I was when we became friends. I can feel myself struggling sometimes when we talk 1v1 as the part of me that has fun wrestles with the part of me that is head over heels for her. I told her out loud today though that we were making a pact to laugh and have fun no matter what happens at work or else where until she is gone. She seemed to like that idea. Hope I can handle it as well. Best of luck Adam!
Thank you Rufio, I hope I can carry on. But just like a functioning alcoholic just because I have my shit together on the outside doesn’t mean I got myself all together. So I think it is a really good thing that LO left my physical presence in that it will help me get my head and heart together. I would have loved to have LO stay and try to maintain a friendship but I don’t know if that would have been possible for me. Because when it comes to a lot of things in life for me it has to be all or nothing. And in the case of LO it needs to be nothing. Best of luck to you and your journey. Enjoy the time you have with your LO. I know I wished that last day with LO would never have ended.
@Lovisa
Lol! That is good stuff. Rufio is definitely not my real name just a character from the movie Hook.
Yeah, I donāt think I could talk to anyone in my real life about this stuff. They would think it was a simple infatuation.
Lovisa/Rufio
I too have that issue as I have gone by Adam on the internet since the late 90’s that even when I hear “Adam” being called out at a store or event I am at I turn to see whose calling me till my brain kicks in and is like “thats not your name” :-/
Lol!
Yes, Rufio, you nailed it.
āReally? Youāve still got a crush?ā said a friend to me dismissively. Actually, weāre no longer friends now after some thirty years but thatās another story (or part of the same storyā¦..)
Following all your posts with interest.
You took your nickname from Hook. Cute. Lovisa is my great x3 grandmotherās name.
I forgot that you donāt have to deal with the guilt that us married limerents live with. But you are right that the average person has no idea about limerence and this is a better place to talk about it than trying to explain it to a friend. That makes sense.
To be fair Lovisa LO is more than 10 years younger than me. She was born when I was still going to high school :-/ But it was an inside joke in the whole office. Mine and LO’s supervisor is only 5 years younger than me and he calls me “old man” lol So it was more to make her laugh than anything. I always wanted to make her laugh as she had the prettiest smile.
I just got reminded of another good memory of LO. It was another day that I was there and LO’s daughter, shes around 12-14 years old, was with her at work. This was back when I was smoking regularly. I had gone out into the warehouse from the office to smoke. I’m standing where I could see LO come out from the office too. So we were talking a good 20 feet or so away, and LO yells down one of the parts aisle “he’s over here!” And I look at LO life wtf lol. Her daughter comes out the side of one the aisle hauling ass running at me and right as get close to me she throws one of the things that pop loud when they hit the ground and I jumped off the ground. LO and her daughter could barely stop laughing to breath. Lol it was funny that they got me. Later on that day LO said sorry and said it was her daughter’s idea. I told LO it was okay I know how to take a joke. It was worth it to she her laugh that much. She didn’t much laugh back in them days because of her toxic ex. So it always made feel good when she laughed even if it was at my expense.
Your post above, at 6.31 pm, is the one which struck another chord with me, Adam. My responses are of the simple non-flowery variety but the things you say are absolutely spot on and I think that I feel part of your pain.
Ignore me if Iām off track or intrusive.
āI would have loved LO to stay and try to maintain a friendshipā¦..ā maintaining a friendship – itās such a hard thing to swallow, perhaps the hardest, but I donāt think it can happen without a lot of pain.
My LO is thirty years younger than me, to my shame, and today I feel at a turning point. After an affectionate Christmas message mentioning love, he is now clearly ghosting me. So thatās No Contact arranged once more, then. It hurts but maybe the uncertainty is receding. I pick up a lot of emotional solace from reading about how other people are handling their struggles and I think it will also help me to āget a gripā. All or nothing. Yes, so true for many of us, I think, and in the end, yes, it so often has to be nothing.
that is a message from him to me mentioning āloveā
Iām going now before I dissolve in a sea of embarrassment.
š
Alright Frederico, itās time to tackle that embarrassment. No one here is judging you. Shame isnāt helpful it can actually push us to use our unhealthy coping skills. True that thirty years is a big age gap, but as long as LO is an adult, I donāt think you should be embarrassed about your limerence. If, on the other hand, LO is not an adult, I beg you to see a therapist.
Interesting Frederico. Your LO is thirty years younger. I have a very attractive male friend who is 21 years younger and I canāt imagine seeing a glimmer in him. If he showed interest in me, I think it would be creepy. I see him more like a son. My thoughts would be, āYou have nothing to offer me in a romantic relationship.ā He just hasnāt lived long enough to have any depth like the men my age. I am so curious about your LO. Have you been attracted to younger men before?
Oh, and I am so sorry he ghosted you. That would be painful and I think recovery will be hard.
Best wishes.
Thanks, Louisa. I was just looking for the post when I set things out in detail. I canāt find it now but I donāt think it would interest very many people.
In a nutshell, no, I have never been attracted to younger men before. The LO is exceptional because he was a neighbour and so unusual. Friendly, affectionate, kind, attentive and funny. Iām guessing completely but maybe there was a āDadā thing. He has a girlfriend and, now a gorgeous young daughter. There was so much bonding and I saw myself as a sort of uncle.
Overall itās good that he has now moved away but there were lots of āmiss youā and āloveā messages.
Itās only fair to his girlfriend that no one is left feeling uncomfortable. I love him very much but it has to fade. I am single.
Because of the closeness (or my perceived closeness) of our friendship, I confided a cancer diagnosis to him. In hindsight, this was a heavy burden to place on a young man. The cancer is in remission now but it has taught me several things. I have to let this young man fly because whatever he felt for me has faded. He has responsibilities now.
Oops, Lovisa. Sorry!
Ha Ha, Lovisa, that made me laugh out loud. I am 68 and LO is 38 š¤£
Hahaha, I laugh with you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I donāt like your attitude, Frederico. Stop assuming that other people wouldnāt take interest in your story. There, Iāve said it, Iāll be nice now.
Iām curious if you are always attracted to men or if this attraction to LO was your first same-gender attraction. There have been others in the LwL community who were straight and they had a same-gender LO. If you are going through that, you are not alone.
Lovisa as usual is right. You shouldn’t feel any shame about age. Even when I was single I had a fondness for older woman when I got to that age. Just didn’t have the courage to talk to them. LO is literally the only woman that much younger than me that has caught my attention. And it might be that she has been through a lot in her life already and has the life experience and maturity of an older woman.
Then because of her life after divorce and as I mentioned pos ex that continues to try and interfere in her life triggered my rescue complex, as my wife calls it. “You can’t make for other men’s bad behavior.” “You can’t fix every woman’s problems.” Which was probably a big part of what started my limerence for her. And also a big part of trying to let go. She doesn’t need me anymore. And that makes me feel as empty as a black hole. He’s looking after her not me now.
This is one of the big reasons why I said it would have to be nothing. Because that mindset is not respectful to her as a grown woman that is capable of solving her own problems. And even then if she needed help she would turn to him and not to me.
I love that story! Of course you got hooked on LO and her daughters, they are delightful.
Yes they are all amazing ladies. At least I got the time I did with them. I remember some boy coming in at work at lunch and talking to LO’s daughter. And I asked LO who the hell is that boy taking to your daughter. And she’s like Adam its her boyfriend. And I go well I don’t like it. And LO looks at me and smiles and says if only her father cared that much. And I said well she may not be my daughter but I damn sure am going to treat her like she is. So that boy better be on his best behavior. š”
That is so cute! I bet LO loved it.
Adam,
My LO from the office is 15 years younger than me. We have quite a similar set up in that regard. Iām right there with you about making them laugh. It is my favorite thing to do and over the past two months I got so lost in my thoughts and sadness that I sunk away from it. I became a dried up version of myself with LO who simply tried not to put his own foot in his mouth. I felt like a silly school boy every time she was in the room.
I just have to focus on being myself with her. It is how we became friends in the first place. Your stories remind me that my time is almost up with her and that in some ways it will be a relief I will truly miss the color she brings into so many of my days now.
“I felt like a silly school boy every time she was in the room”
“I will truly miss the color she brings into so many of my days now”
I can totally get that. I would tell my other female coworker I don’t know how the hell god packed so much sunshine into one woman to make her shine so bright. And she did. The worst most stressful shitty day at work and all she would have to do is smile and my bad mood would melt away. I miss that a lot. And like you I too am just a dried up version of myself without her.
āI donāt know how the hell god packed so much sunshine into one woman to make her shine so bright.ā
Oh my gosh, that is beautiful! Adam, you have a way with words.
Rufio, when I quit working to be a mom, the office threw me a very nice going away party. It was in the evening at a fancy hotel so the spouses could join us. They did a bit of a roast, but not too painful. One of the men had quilted a baby blanket for my baby. They all went in on some very nice gifts, too. My boss told me I was going out like Michael Jordan at the top of my game. The sweetest moment came from a very masculine but big hearted coworker. He was there when I started and he was there when I left. He said that I brought professionalism to to the office and I made everything better. He actually cried. I felt so loved. I will never forget it. We also had a week-long team-building training that was focused on the theme of coping with change. I will cherish those memories forever.
Donāt be shy to admit to LO that you will miss her or that she brightens the office.
Oh donāt worry Lovisa, I have that letter written in all my creative INFP glory. I almost made her cry when we were out just trying to drunkenly tell her she is special. Iām hoping the letter really hits the mark of telling her how great I think she is.
I think it will, she is a fairly emotional person as well. Thank you for the sweet story.
I broke the Speedy rule and texted her last night about some funny stuff at work and we joked. She came by my building and waved through the window. I went to see what was going on out there after a few minutes and ended up helping her with something for awhile.
Found an error in her lab an employee(we have a lot of convos about this person) was supposed to fix a little later, took a picture and texted her again saying I was āhidingā in the lab and found this and would fix it. She said she wasnāt busy and would come over and do it and that was when we made the pact to have fun and laugh until she leaves.
Oddly I still havenāt crashed or felt bad. We shall see.
Oh, that is really sweet. Thank you for sharing.
Wow, a lot has happened around here in a couple days since I checked in.
Rufio, I really think your LE will fade quickly once LO moves away. I bet within 3 months you will just be left with fond memories and no depressive or intrusive thoughts. I would cherish these last couple weeks you have with LO and don’t shy away from initiating interaction with her. It will all be over soon enough.
Adam, I have had intense intrusive thoughts for 10 months now. I hate it so much but I have learned to function with them. I have to see my LO in a close environment 4 days a week with no end in sight. It sucks big time!!! I understand exactly what you are going through. I call it the numb, just get through the day feeling. I have felt a bit better since I disclosed, more stable. The uncertainty of it all was driving me crazy and that had been relieved at least. But I am still in LE and not sure if it will ever fade. I am trying to pull back little by little now.
If you had followed my story, one of the things that led to disclosure were some office dynamics with other employees who started to notice me and LO. That issue now seems to be put to rest through some meetings between myself and other employees and LO and another employee. The office is on stable ground right now and LO seems to be stable as well. Everything has been dealt with and concluded as far as I can tell. I guess I came out OK in practical terms but not in emotional. Still feeling fairly down about LO.
But I like that I can come here, discuss it all with people who understand limerence and get encouragement and advice and be able to reciprocate the same.
Hey Speedy, you were missed. Thanks for the update. Stable equals boring so I think you will go through a little drama withdrawal. Just a guess. Go ahead roll your eyes, I deserve it.
I think you are right, the drama can be exciting. But I just want to get on with life now and I need a stable, dramaless, boring predictable routine with LO to do that.
You are right. Have your limerent symptoms subsided?
That’s a good question. The uncertainty craziness in my head has subsided and that was my biggest LE complaint. It was really affecting me. But I am still very attracted to LO and the intrusive thoughts are still there. Since I disclosed I am paranoid now about LO quitting. She puts on a good stable front and this week seemed all good but I am worried she is secretly distressed and will want to quit of her own accord or will tell her husband everything and he will make her quit. It’s going to take some time and stability, maybe a good few months, for me to get over this feeling of paranoia.
I am glad you are past the uncertainty, but the intrusive thoughts are rough. I hope you get to a boring, stable state soon.
I wonder if you are more like Adam in that you need all of LO or none. Perhaps the dance Iām doing with my LO never would have worked for you. Iām pretty sure my LO lives with a desire for physical intimacy from me that he just has to tolerate in order to have me in his life. I know thatās how I experience it, but I suspect it is less painful for a female to suppress those feelings. I donāt know. I guess I am not entirely suppressing my sexual desire for LO, I redirect it to my hubby. Just thinking out loud.
There were many internal discussions in my head before I disclosed when I thought she was attracted to me as well about what type of relationship I could realistically have with her. I knew an actual PA was not realistic for many reasons, but I had hoped a light EA was possible. I had imagined that we would have this mutual disclosure, then come up with a plan of interaction with each other to maintain a personal intimate relationship. I thought if that could happen and our interactions were consistent and reciprocal I would be satisfied. But that was limerent fantasy as well and I am not sure I could have even handled that even seeing how bad it affected me before Christmas when we were texting regularly.
Now I know that I have to go strict LC as part of purposeful living. It’s a bit of a drag now, mainly because I still desire her affection and attention, but I think that will fade with time as things become routine and stable. It’s my best option to get my life back on track. I just hope she doesn’t throw me any curve balls here. The quitting paranoia is my biggest anxiety right now but I am trusting that is all in my head and not actually how she feels.
One other thought. There were a couple days when she was initiating and reciprocating a lot of texting with me in December when I almost fully felt at peace with things. It was a feeling like I had finally “got” the girl and it felt good but it also felt like “what now?” I actually had the thought of if I really did like her now that she was showing interest. Like I was only in it for the chase, which may very well be possible. Once I obtained the object of my affection does reality hit and all of a sudden all those flaws I gloss over in LE bubble right to the surface. Her interest in me did not last long enough for me to know for certain, and the chase resumed and I was right back in full LE mode by January.
But it was an interesting thing now that I think back on it. How much of LE is really just the chase?
Sorry this is so long, grab a sandwich and get cozyā¦
Thanks for expanding on your story a little more. I kind of had what you described with my LO1 for 17 years. It was off and on. After 7 years he got aggressive, I think he couldnāt take it anymore. He asked me to leave my SO. I wouldnāt. He was angry and started referring to my SO as āPerfect [Mr. Lovisa]ā when he talked about him. He asked, āWhat can he give you that I canāt?ā At that time, LO1ās art had gone mainstream and his income from royalties allowed him to quit working and live a very nice lifestyle. He knew he could leave his family and still financially support them. And he could provide a good life for me and my daughter (I only had one child at the time). When he asked that question, I avoided it, but I was thinking, āLoyalty and fidelity.ā My point is that I think it is harder for men to maintain a friendship with a woman if he knows there is a mutual attraction. So here we are back to my #1 message for people on this siteā¦ never disclose attraction if you or the other person is in a committed relationship.
Hypothetically speaking, if you hadnāt disclosed attraction to LO, could you have accepted whatever relationship she was willing to give you and could you have accepted that you would never know if there was mutual attraction? Iām curious.
Hereās another thought. My message to all three LOs has been the sameā¦ Yes I am attracted to you and itās pretty intense. Yep, I would love to sleep with you. I think you are incredible. I wonāt sleep with you, ever. I am only offering friendship because I will not act on these feelings of attraction. I have been really clear and consistent about it. When I held my ground firmly with LO1, he was able to go back to friendship for another 10 years, but I suspect he was just playing the long game. LO2 is very religious. He went LC with me. His friend thinks that LO2 doesnāt trust himself to remain true to his values where I am concerned. His LC is what sent me into a horrible limerent despair and brought me to this website. This website is where I learned about transference and became desperate enough to try it, which lead to LO3. LO3 is new to limerence (I feel guilty about that, but to be fair to me, he likes it so far). LO3 is just amazing so far. He has been living with the knowledge that we have mutual attraction since June. We revisit it periodically and I stay firm in my resolve that although I am very attracted to LO3, I am only offering friendship. He says it comforts him because he doesnāt want to be unfaithful to his SO and he feels safe that he doesnāt have to worry about that with me. Anyway, I am babbling again.
Letās say you learned that your LO wanted to sleep with you, but her high standards prevented her from sleeping with you. She was only willing to offer you friendship. Could you live with that?
That is some great insight Lovisa. I really appreciate it. To answer your very last question, yes, I felt like that is what I wanted. To know she was attracted to me as well romantically but to have a close friendship that didn’t intrude into our marriages. Whether I could actually handle it in reality, I don’t know, I like to think I could. But I can not answer that unless I were in the situation itself.
The draw for sex is strong for a man. It is hard to desire it yet be content not having it. Seems as if you have been at peace with that for done time now. I would like to think I would have been at peace too, but as closeness develops, I just don’t know. I am not sexually aggressive, and neither is my LO, so the temptation of sex would of required some monumental circumstances.
My LO is fairly naive and innocent in relationships. I truly believe that she had no idea I had feelings for her and she never considered feelings for me, because that is not what married people experience. But this naive-ness allowed her to cross some lines with me because she didn’t even know certain lines existed. Like all the texting. Now she does and she has pulled back. That is why I am paranoid about what is going on in her head…I exposed it all to her now and she is probably questioning her behavior with me and her feelings about me.
I still think in my situation disclosure might be best for the long run because the situation was leaking like a sieve and something was going to give. I controlled the give and now I’m working to piece it all back together.
Thanks Speedwagon, I am learning so much from you. Disclosure may have been the best thing for you, I agree, but I want to add another thought to the debate. (I really appreciate this discussion, by the way. It helps me gain insight into something that I cannot openly discuss in my real life.)
I have other male friends and I am not attracted to most of them. Iām thinking of one in particular who I find very attractive and I believe he feels the same, but I will never know. I prefer to never know, too. Our friendship is so much easier without the extra baggage of the limerent dance.
I have already learned the lesson that I will never disclose again. But I wasnāt prepared for LO3ās disclosure and I just couldnāt lie to him. I think, going forward, I have to learn how to lie about my feelings just in case another attractive male friend discloses. Iām repulsed by the thought of lying, but I think it is the right thing to do. Here is how I picture itā¦
Attractive male friend addresses elephant in the room. āIām sorry, but I am too attracted to you to be your friend.ā
Lovisa responds, āWow, that sounds hard. You feel attracted to me and it makes it hard for you to be my friend. I am sad about that because I value our friendship. I donāt want to lose you, but I donāt want to hurt you either. What happens next?ā
Attractive friend, āI thought you felt the same way about me. Remember when you borrowed my jacket? The way you looked at me when I wrapped it around you made me think you enjoyed feeling close to me.ā
Lovisa, thinking in her head āugh, I have hurt someone special again!ā Saying out loud, āI am so sorry that I gave you the impression that I had romantic interest in you. Please forgive me. I cherish your friendship and I donāt want to lose it, but I understand if you donāt want to be my friend anymore. Can you still be my friend?ā
Attractive friend, āAre you saying that I misread you?ā
Lovisa thinking in her head, āI am a monster! I am gaslighting him! Dang it, dang it, dang it!ā Says out loud, āYes, I am sorry but you misunderstood. I just want friendship from you.ā
I really think I have lie next time, Speedy. What do you think?
That’s a tough question about lying. I sometimes wonder if my LO is lying to me. It makes sense that you would want to, mutual disclosure of an attraction is a whole new thing to be managed. So I go back to my situation, is my LO lying to me and is this better? If you lie then you have to be prepared for the friendship to end. LO might just go NC. On the other hand, if you disclose attraction LO better be damn mature and be able to handle the relationship with boundaries.
I’m gonna say this is really a case by case basis. Your current LO seems to be able to handle it, others might not.
If my LO is really attracted to me and is lying to me, I am OK with it. It is her feelings and marriage to protect.
Wow, good answer. Thanks.
I have a question for you. I am really worried that my disclosure is going to cause great distress and panic in my LO even though I assured her I am not pursuing her, I am not a threat, and I just want to move past it. My LO had not acted creeped out by me at all since I disclosed. As of yesterday, she seemed OK.
Can information like this cause great distress if she starts dwelling on it? Can it cause a lot of guilt in her with SO? All I really admitted is that I had an attraction to her to get to know her more personally. I didn’t lay any love language on her. I’m really paranoid today for some reason, like something bad is about to happen.
Speedy,
“Can information like this cause great distress if she starts dwelling on it? Can it cause a lot of guilt in her with SO?”
Can it? Most definitely.
Will it? Maybe, maybe not.
You may have not said anything out of line but you busted a lot of boundaries. You have no control over her reaction. So, your fate is in her hands. She doesn’t sound malicious or vindictive but she could panic.
Be careful. This train of thought can get you thinking that you should do or say something more and that’s the last thing that you want to do.
Time will tell.
I hope I can sooth your paranoia, Speedy. You are probably in the clear especially if she hasnāt shown signs of distress lately. But, my LO2 overthought things and went cold on me which I didnāt see coming, so I canāt predict your LOs future behavior. I wish I could.
Here is what you have going for you.
1. She already lashed out at you, so she may have gotten that out of her system.
2. She isnāt showing signs of being creeped out – this is huge!
3. She was already able to reconnect with you in a friendly way. This is also huge because it shows that she wants things to go back to normal.
I think things might be weird for a little while, but I really think you two will be fine.
Hereās the thing, Speedy. If I were in her shoes, here is how it would probably go down with meā¦
I would hope to figure out what the new normal is going to look like as soon as possible. I would hope to minimize pain for everyone, mostly my SO, you would be second on that list. I probably wouldnāt tell my SO out of respect for you.
If my relationship with you stabilized, I would probably accept it as the new normal and continue in my employment as long as I liked my job. I just donāt think this incident is enough for her to want to quit. I also donāt think her husband would care as much as you think he would. If I told my husband that my employer admitted to wanting me, he would say, āWell, who doesnāt want you, have looked in a mirror lately?ā He would only care if it bothered me. And it doesnāt seem to bother her. Speedy, you didnāt sexually harass her, you admitted that you like her. You are not a threat and she seems to know that. Iāll share a few stories of times when an employer showed interest in me. Maybe it will help, at least you can get a few laughs. I wrote them a while ago with the intention of posting them, but got distracted and never went back to it.
Thanks Lovisa, you said everything I needed to hear. My emotions are so all over the place and my imagination is working on the extremes. Its so great to have you here to keep me grounded and give me perspective. Really thank you!!!
@LE…yes, I have no intent to say anything more ever. These are all inner demons I’m dealing with now.
Now I’m off to go on a fantastic date with my wife!!!
Louisa,
Here’s what’s going against him.
IMO, Speedy’s biggest risk is if she starts to leak to the point her SO notices and pushes her.
Remember what I said in another post about SOs not being stupid or clueless? If her SO gets wind of it, he may not take it well. Some SOs take a dim view of poaching.
Speedy’s hypervigilance is heading for overdrive.
If he starts leaking, his SO may notice. I leaked to the point that my wife asked, “Is she after you?” It didn’t occur to my wife that I was after LO #4 until I disclosed to my wife 3 years after LO #4 and I said goodbye.
I was actively managing the LE and I was operating under ideal conditions.
Speedy isn’t.
You have good insight, Limerent Emeritus, but it isnāt helpful for Speedy to stew about this. He NEEDS to go on a date with Mrs. Speedwagon and put this behind him. He wasnāt poaching, he was processing his feelings.
Of course it can go south. Anything can go south. But worrying about it doesnāt help anyone.
I always enjoy your posts. Keep them coming.
You are welcome Speedy! I hope you two have fun. I am eating pizza in my bedroom because we have a house full of teenage girls and I donāt want to be around them. I think SO and I will break out some board games and hide in our bedroom from all the loud giggling.
The girls sent him on an errand and when he came back, his eyes were big and he quickly shut the door behind him. āThey are so loud!ā He said. āNo kidding, thereās a lot of estrogen in this house, Iām not going out there.ā I replied.
Enjoy your weekend!
“Remember what I said in another post about SOs not being stupid or clueless”
Well, to be fair, this was a guy who didn’t think anything was weird with me texting with her for hours on end on the weekend. If that didn’t raise an eyebrow, not sure anything now will. Lol
Also, I made a good choice for myself today. In my work (I’m in a creative field with various clients that I contract with) I need to do outings each week to manage projects. Sometimes I take an employee who is working on a certain project along.
As it happens I have an appointment set up for next Friday to do some out of office work on a project that I intend to have LO work on. LO is a 4 day a week employee and Friday is her day off but many times if something comes up on Fridays we shuffle her schedule.
In this instance I am not going to shuffle her schedule and not going to take her along. She won’t know the difference. I decided I need to stop spending alone time with her as an effort to go LC. No texting, no emailing, no alone time. I could have easily manufactured this outing with her but I chose not to. I feel good about that.
Iām proud of you, Speedy.
Lovisa, I too have a hard time saying goodbye in general much less with LO. Now I am not forthcoming to admit this, but while I didn’t in her presence there were plenty of tears on the drive home on her last day. Not many people/situations can get that response out of me but the loss of LO did.
Speedwagon, yeah the intrusive thoughts suck and I can’t imagine if I had to see LO on a regular basis if she did for sure know how I felt. I think the office I work at here being as small as it is; 5 people total at her location and 3 here where I am makes it a lax dynamic. I think most people just chalked it up as an innocent crush since I never pursued LO. And at the time I didn’t even know it was more than a crush even though it felt like something more. But I can see in other environments it might be a problem. I am hoping the best outcome for you as you continue on.
Like the song lyric “Everybody knows its true/everybody knows I’m hooked on you.”
Hooked On You by Bread
Adam, of course you cried when she left. You lost something beautiful. She brought color to your days. Who wouldnāt miss that?
How is Mrs. Adam doing? There is a resource that I want to share with you that could strengthen your relationship with Mrs. Adam. I hesitate to share it because, in the wrong hands, it can be used for bad things. I encourage you to look it over and consider going through it with Mrs. Adam.
Google āThe 36 Questions That Lead to Loveā and you might be able to find a free version of it. Here is a link to the one I usedā¦
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/style/no-37-big-wedding-or-small.html
Itās from the New York Times and they might require a $1 subscription fee. If you look it up from a library, you might not have to pay the fee.
Warning to lurkersā¦ donāt use this on your LO. Itās cruel, just donāt.
I know but it makes me feel silly. I don’t like to let my emotions out. That’s why I was able to keep together until I was alone.
I will check it out Lovisa. I did print up the resources here on the blog for the spouse of a limerent. I told my wife what they were and where they came from and left them for her to read. I don’t know if she ever has. But I was hoping it would help her understand and confront whats going on with me.
But I will take a look at your link and read it. Thank you for taking time of yours and concern for my situation. I really do appreciate all that you have done for me, and that you are always will to talk.
You are welcome. I would love to hear your thoughts about that resource, good or bad, if you feel like sharing.
Have a great weekend!
“Oh my gosh, that is beautiful! Adam, you have a way with words.”
I guess she brings out the poet in me Lovisa. Now if only I had the courage of a brave knight to actually say something like that to her ….. in that regard I was the cowardly lion.
I donāt know if I believe that you were cowardly. I suspect that you were practicing good boundaries. Clearly, you have intense feelings for a delightful woman, but you balanced that with your loyalty to Mrs. Adam. I donāt think cowardice held you back, I think it was loyalty.
Well at least subconsciously I was doing the right thing then. I usually kept my compliments to her on her work ethic or being the determined and loving mother that she was to her daughters. I suspect no one knows how hard being a single mother is until they are a single mother themselves. And it always impressed me how she was able to balance all those things in her life and still manage to have time and energy to talk to me. She definitely was a one of a kind woman. But my wife is too and I do still love her. After all she may be upset at me about this LE and LO but she’s still here by my side.
Awwwww, sweet.
“She puts on a good stable front and this week seemed all good but I am worried she is secretly distressed and will want to quit of her own accord”
LO was always very nice to me and if I annoyed her in anyway with attention she never said or hinted at it to me. But its been 7 months since she left and she has only called me (at work) one time and talked to me. Now I am getting paranoid I might at least been part of the reason she left. I’ve never asked anyone else. The other female coworker there knows LO well and might know if I asked her. But then if LO disclosed to her the reason(s) she left she might have told her not to tell me. Because she would be sweet enough not to want to hurt me if that was the case. So yeah I am stressing about that.
I can’t help much on your other front Speedwagon. LO is a very attractive young lady but I have never felt any physical/sexual urges for beyond the normal brief thoughts that enter every man’s head. I just want to be in her presence and enjoy her company.
Another random memory that I just got reminded of. I was at LO’s location to help her and her co-worker. We were discussing something that got a little heated and those two ladies went from sweet to lioness real fast. By the time I intervened and settled it and the two of the cooled down. I said “Now you two kiss and make up.” Lmao the look they both gave me was hilarious. And then LO said “You would like to see that wouldn’t you?” And gave me this look that I am certain made me blush. That’s like the only time LO was “playful”. And even then that might have just been her making a joke about a man liking to see two women kiss. Either way it is a fun memory to think about.
Adam, I am 99.9% sure that she did not leave because of you. Iām quite sure that she misses you.
She wouldnāt have announced her last day specifically to you unless she liked having you around.
I bet, if you reached out to her, she would be warm and receptive unless you caught her at a bad time and honestly she could seem distant even if it isnāt her intent. But, letās not hurt Mrs. Adam by reaching out to LO, okay?
That’s true she did. I guess I’m just feeling insecure and trying to remember that she is getting on with her life. And that’s good. I have to keep reminding myself of that. And that she is in good hands and he will care for LO and her daughters.
And I have been very diligent in not calling or texting her. Some days it is difficult but yeah I remind myself how it would hurt my wife. This whole scenario is difficult for her too. But I think we can make it through this together.
I canāt respond to everyone but I just have to say, man there are some good threads in here. Thank you Adam, Speed, and Lovisa.
My situation remained pretty stable and ended with LO quietly sharing some personal things with me today while we were alone and it made me feel quite special. We commiserated about work and then ended the day with laughs. Iāll take that and hope the stability in both interactions and my feelings hold!
No problem, Rufio. Thanks for checking in.
I think these stories might help our LwL men understand the female perspective of romance at work. Keep in mind that I am very chill about getting hit on. In fact, I like it. Some women get angry, I donāt understand those women. I actually started typing this a while ago in response to one of Speedyās older posts. It might seem a little out of context, sorry. Also, I didnāt really finish it.
Here goesā¦
One boss told me about a dream he had where he fed me strawberries and I licked his fingers. I already liked him quite a bit so I was amused by the dream, we laughed about it and moved on. No harm done. By āI liked himā I mean I just liked him. No romantic attraction, but I really enjoyed his company. If I had learned that he had romantic attraction for me, I would have felt sympathy for him and wondered if I did something wrong and how I could do better. I would have hoped that he could still be the delightful boss who I enjoyed so much. I would have been sad if his attraction to me interfered with our friendship. And I probably would think it was my fault.
Another boss tried really hard to tell me that he wanted me without saying it. I played dumb on purpose. It actually made me kinda mad, but I liked the job so I put up with it. My friend who replaced me had the same experience with him. She was more direct with him and she openly laughed about his advances when he wasnāt around. The stuff he said to her just makes me shake my head in amusement. Neither of us had romantic feelings for him, but we both liked him just fine.
I guess I was naive like Speedyās LO at my last job. Before my oldest was born, I worked in a male-dominated industry. I loved that job! I loved the work and I loved the people! I saw the president as a father figure and all the other men as my friends. They made me laugh a lot. I would make eye-contact with any of them to asses if they were playful and if they had that spark in their eye, I would find reasons to visit their office. I loved the playful atmosphere! Fast forward a few years and one of them got brave enough to inform me about what was happening behind the scenes. They had debates about who was my favorite. They competed for my attention, hence all the laughter. They teased each other about encounters with me. Some of their wives who were so nice to me on the phone didnāt like me. I had no idea. I thought they were my friends. Even after hearing that I was somewhat of a mascot, I still think theyāre my friends.
Here is the take awayā¦ listen please! [Remember, I wrote this when I was trying to persuade Speedy that his LO just saw him as a friendā¦]
There are different kinds of attraction. A woman can show signs of attraction when she just likes someone. You see alluring behavior because she subconsciously wants to draw you close to her. She wants you close because she likes you NOT BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO SLEEP WITH YOU (she might have those feelings too, but not likely). The eye contact might be her assessing your moodā¦ is he playful? Does he have too much work on his plate? Wanting to play with you and wanting to sleep with you are two very different things.
I donāt know if that helps anything, but at least you all can get a laugh about the strawberries.
*assessā¦ lol! Sorry for the typo.
I think those are great examples Lovisa. I think I understand it more than I have in a long time. Perhaps that was why I needed to meet LO. No matter how attracted to her I am I would never hurt her at this point. Unless she just came out and said it herself I would never disclose anything more than a deep respect and enjoyment of her company.
Sometimes I still feel down after interactions but knowing how I’m going to handle things takes a lot of pressure off in most aspects.
Thank you.
I think it’s important to remember that men can be equally flirtatious, jokey, friendly, touchy-feely, complimentary … and it doesn’t necessarily mean all that much. It could mean: “I like you. I’m enjoying your company. But I’m in no way taking this seriously.”
A lot of limerence — a WHOLE lot of it — is trying to read the tea leaves. And unless someone discloses or asks you out or makes a pass … you’re just aren’t going to know how they feel.
I think that also in todayās day and age old time habits like actual manners towards a woman are considered flirting. I remember when LO was going to go to lunch and it was raining so I ran to my truck got my umbrella and walked LO out to her truck and gave her my umbrella to take with her. I got teased by both male and female employees because they saw it as an ulterior motive when I would have done that for any woman because that was how I was raised.
Sometimes intentions in certain behaviors are difficult to detect and people assume what is the most obvious to them. I know one day I worked with LO I had a formal occasion halfway through the day to attend so I was dressed more formal than usual. LO said I looked handsome. Of course that comment from her was totally different than any other female coworker saying the same. In that case it was difficult to separate behavior from intention because I had a personal bias.
I guess in the end all that blathering boils down to human behavior is complicated.
Adam,
“I remember when LO was going to go to lunch and it was raining so I ran to my truck got my umbrella and walked LO out to her truck and gave her my umbrella to take with her. ”
I wouldn’t have considered that flirting. Just good manners. Now, if it was someone I was attracted to, that behavior would have made me more attracted. I love when men do chivalrous things. And chivalry is not all that common anymore. But if I wasn’t attracted, I would appreciate the gesture, but it wouldn’t generate attraction. I know you wrote you didn’t have ulterior motives. I believe you. I’m just pointing out the distinction.
“LO said I looked handsome.”
“Handsome” to me implies a bit more than “you look nice.” But, again … tea leaves. Most of the miseries on this site could be solved with just having a direct conversation with the LO. Provided the limerent accepts what the LO says. Even a half-assed, flim-flam answer is an answer. If someone isn’t being direct or confusing or sending mixed signals… that’s a no. Mixed signals usually means the person isn’t sure or there’s someone else in the picture.
Also, attraction comes in levels and degrees. A woman may be fond of a man she considers a friend and have some attraction for him, might have though about what it would be like to be with him sexually, but the attraction may not be strong enough to move the needle to a “yes, let’s do this.”
I think these examples ring very true with my LO. I am not crazy in seeing signs of attraction from her. Signs that she exhibits that my other female employees don’t exhibit. But the signs were not romantic in nature even though they mimic romantic ones.
If you remember, my LO has a husband who is…errr…less than great. I like to say that I represent the guy she wishes her husband was, but doesn’t wish I was her husband. Big difference.
All of which explains why you thought she might be receptive.
So, you disclosed in the hope of elevating the frisson to a low grade EA and possibly a PA. That’s brinksmanship.
At what point would you have said, “Enough!” and set boundaries?
What would you have done if when you disclosed, she’d smiled and said, “Let’s do this!”
If her husband isn’t so great and you think you’re the guy she wishes was her husband, you’re disclosure may have opened up the possibility that you could be some day. And, even if it’s not you, you may have got her to think about doing something about her marriage.
You gave her something to think about.
LO #4 told me that I opened up her eyes to what was going on her relationship and I hadn’t disclosed at that point. That changed the nature of the relationship. Her relationship allegedly ended when she confronted him about his cheating on her and he (allegedly) suckered punched her from behind and then knocked her down when she turned around. That’s what she said. I don’t know if any of it’s true.
If that’s true, I set the chain of events in motion that led to someone that I cared a lot about being assaulted. I don’t like that.
She told me about opening up her eyes after she’d left him. On top of it, she said she would always be grateful to me for opening up her eyes.
Most of the time disclosure is like throwing a pebble in the ocean. But, sometimes it’s not.
The elephant in the room is how your wife would handle your EA should she find out. Peoples’ views on that vary widely. My wife takes a very dim view of EAs and has a low bar of what constitutes an EA.
There was an early poster on LwL whose husband sounds like your LO’s husband. As long as they weren’t sleeping together, he didn’t care. Her spending time with her LO was time he didn’t have to spend with her.
You have to wait and see.
āIf thatās true, I set the chain of events in motion that led to someone that I cared a lot about being assaulted. I donāt like that.ā
I donāt think you deserve that blame, Limerent Emeritus. Also, that would be really hard. If I remember right, you pulled away because she became irresistible as a damsel in distress. Wow, it would take some serious strength to pull away in that moment. Limerence is intensified if you think LOās SO isnāt treating them right. My LO2ās wife has no libido and he suffers in a sexless marriage. It makes me so angry! How does she justify treating him like that? I donāt understand sexless marriages; not only would I never do that to another person, I wouldnāt do it to myself. I just donāt get it and it makes me so angry. Iām sure you donāt understand the mindset of a man who hits women either. I think it would be nice if you stop blaming yourself for that assault. You really donāt deserve it.
Lovisa,
I don’t blame myself. It’s not a question of blame.
My point was that I thought what I’d been saying to LO #4 really didn’t matter and had no influence on her. She was listening to what I said to her. She published 3 of my articles on her site and used one of them as the basis for a chapter in her book. It turns out I had a lot more influence on her than I realized.
Speedy changed the game. It may have more impact than he realizes. Then, again, probably not. But, if it does, he has no excuse for not seeing it coming.
It is a healthy realization I believe. I caught on as well and now know she really likes me as a friend from the things shared and said this week. The trap I’m trying to avoid now is not letting the closeness tear me apart. I had a few drinks last night and lost control of my day dreaming before bed and ended up with her in multiple dreams, lol. However, I don’t feel that bad this morning.
We are setting up one more outting for drinks before she leaves so one last pitfall to avoid any kind of disclosure but I think I can manage at this point. At worst I’ll probably cry if she starts crying like last time. Oh boy.
Hang in there Speed!
Rufio, I have no doubt that you will do great by LO during the next outing. You are in such a good frame of mind. I noticed on one of your other posts you said something about how you donāt want to hurt her. I love that about you. You really do put her wants and needs above your own. You are going to make a future Mrs. Rufio very happy if you choose to go down that path.
LO3 and I have become a little too flirty. Iām thinking about ways to scale it backā¦ maybe I could change the subject? Should I jump into a different subject and minimize my attention to flirty correspondence?
What’s flirty look like for you?
Great question. He commented on a picture of meā¦
āYour legsā¦your armsā¦yourā¦ Gosh [Lovisa] so so awakening!ā
And on another picture,
āā¦I canāt stop checking you out.ā
And my favorite
ā[you have] such a contagiously beautiful smile.ā
Stuff like that. Iām guilty of it, too. Iām kinda afraid to admit to my flirty comments because other women will throw stones at me.
Since he decided to become distant about two weeks ago, the frequency of communication increased and we became quite flirty. I donāt know what to make of it. But itās fine, we will go back to appropriate I just have to figure out how to do it without creating uncertainty in him.
Yeah, I think that kind of talk doesn’t sit right with me because it feels like he’s pushing boundaries of friendship and laying the groundwork for a PA.
Can you tell him you are not comfortable with sexually charged comments. That kind of talk should be reserved for SO only.
I would pull back too.
Thanks, that helps. Iāll do that.
Maria
I really would do that for any woman but I can see your point since it was LO. Funny thing is it kinda annoyed her because she’s not a “lady” lady. She’s very much a tomboy and being treated that way annoys her lol but I can’t help it. I still do the same with momma. I walk her under an umbrella, open doors, and pull out chairs. I do that for the ladies I care about not because I am trying to say they cant do it themselves but because I want to show them I value and respect them.
Yeah I think she was more commenting on the fact that I took effort to dress for the needed occasion. But pardon me if that doesnt go right to my head. For you younger ladies, a comment like that goes to straight to an old man like me’s head. I dont get comments like that much.
I tried to help her as best as I could with the issues she I had when I first met her. I wanted to rescue her and that was a hard tide to subside. My wife says I have a rescue complex when it comes to women in peril. So that might have been some of it too. Either way she doesnt need me anymore. š
Adam,
“For you younger ladies, a comment like that goes to straight to an old man like manās head.”
I’m done.
I dont understand your response Maria but I hope that my comment didnt offend you.
You’re like almost every man on here. Your LO is younger. It’s such a cliche. I’m middle-aged. Reading this site (which maybe I shouldn’t, but it’s probably a fairly accurate representation of the male mind, no?) has completely soured me on the idea of marriage. Last thing I’d want is to be married to someone who’s mooning over a much younger woman. If that’s what you really want, go for it, but don’t keep me hanging around and in the dark about it because the possibility of anything happening with the LO is low or uncertain.
Hey Sister, you are in a lot of pain. I wish I could pull you aside so just the two of us could talk. I wish I could give you a big hug and just listen to whatās on your mind.
Age has nothing to do with keeping a manās interest. Men like women for how the woman makes them feel. We color their gray world. I am 1 year younger than Adam and I have no doubt he would show me the same sweet chivalry that he used on his LO. Why? Because I am receptive to it. He senses that his actions delight me. He loves making women happyā¦ALL MEN LOVE TO MAKE WOMEN HAPPY.
Marcia, I am so glad you are here. You bring interesting and helpful information to the conversation. I have learned a lot from you. I want to offer you something that you might like. Will you check out Alison Armstrongās work about understanding men? She has a lot of interviews on YouTube so you donāt even have to buy anything. I love her stuff!
And, letās address the fact that Rufio, Speedy, and Adam currently have younger LOs. It makes sense because these boys are hard wired to produce offspring, it is at the core of all of us. You and I are nearing an age where we canāt produce babies anymore (btw, a lack of fertility is attractive to many men our age). Of course the younger, fertile ladies catch their eye. But that initial spark doesnāt keep them coming back. They have feelings for these women because they love her laugh and how she looks at them. Adamās masculine instincts were awakened by his LO: he could do nice things for her and her kids (provide), he had his eye on that boy who dated LOās daughter and on LOās new SO (protect), he would love to be in the role of LOās new SO and be the man in her life and her daughtersā lives (preside). His LO woke up his instincts and made him feel alive. Adam was designed to do those things (in my opinion, he was designed to do those things by an all-knowing Creator). His spirit saw an opportunity to be what he was created to be and it woke him up. I think itās beautiful. I also think there is a way for Adam to have an awakening with Mrs. Adam, but I donāt know how yet. Iām hoping he discovers it because it is obvious that he loves her and he wants to do right by her.
We arenāt past our prime, Marcia, our stories are just getting started.
@ Marcia
My next biggest crush I currently have is for a woman 2 years older than me. She could easily be an LO if she ever showed attraction towards me. Objectively speaking, she is not even all that attractive, but something about her is very sexy to me. Don’t assume so much.
Lovisa,
“We arenāt past our prime, Marcia, our stories are just getting started.”
Your story isn’t over. But your time in the sun as a woman will come to an end at some point. It just does. I’m not sure who to blame. Maybe your Creator? He really did a number on older women, no?
I mean, everyone’s time in the sun comes to an end. It just seems to last a bit longer for men because society values providership in them. Not all women value that in men, but a good number do.
But it is what it is. There’s not much you can do about it.
I respectfully disagree. I will never stop shining. As long as there is life in these bones I can listen, smile, validate, comfort and care. Because what is a womanās role? We are nurturers. Everyone needs nurturing. Age has nothing to do with it either. Watch a 2-year-old girl with her baby dolls or an elderly woman in a care center serving her roommate. We are nurturers and that is what colors menās lives. Age really doesnāt matter. And, yes, my creator put the nurturing instinct in women, too.
Lovisa,
I’m not talking about your ability to nurture. I’m talking about the ability to attract men on a purely visceral level.
Ah, I’ll weigh in on this because it is one of my pet interests. I went to read David Buss, and it helped me put a lot of this limerence stuff into a different framework. It helped me feel even more like what is happening to me is part of our human hardwiring, which was good to understand, first so as to not blame (myself, or others), but also to help me get clear in my mind what is biological, and what is intentional. Which really helped me to figure out what course I preferred to take in my life.
The centrality of fertility and the raising of off-spring in our sexual preferences is usually unconscious, but undisputable. This made me realize that the default of men being physically attracted to young, fertile women is no more blame-worthy than women being attracted to men who are good providers for their long-term mate, and (interestingly) more impressive physical specimens for short-term affairs (I believe it is the V-shaped torso, height, and something else … good teeth?) I believe this is so that women maximize their ability to get good genetic material, yet ensure any children born are provided for. Women don’t get a free pass in terms of their basic attractions too (wait till you hear how they tend to set up other men as their “back ups” should their primary relationships fail).
Okay, so that is the basic, “visceral” level attraction Marcia is talking about. It is innately biological. Now consider that limerence as a mechanism for pair-bonding (for the sake of reproduction), it makes perfect sense that even if your actual preference may include many characteristics OTHER than these physical markers, anyone who becomes an LO is very likely (not always, but much more often than not) to be someone who fits in the mold of what suits your evolutionary profile. So for men, fertile women. Who will tend to be younger than them IF the men are older (and I hate to say this, if their SO is older). And for women, guess what, also younger LOs. I don’t hear many middle-aged female limerents here saying, ooh, my LO is this older guy in his 60s or 70s, I just love his wrinkles. So, for women, I would hazard a guess that if they are single (or single with children), their taste in LOs would trend towards the “provider” types (age less important, more the usual markers of providership like status or money or power, but I even think married male LOs would be particularly appealing, because those have been “proven” to be successful providers), and if those women have an SO already, their LOs will be younger, hotter guys (male fertility does not drop as precipitously, but begins to decline after 35).
So, the middle aged men here have as much to complain about as the middle aged women. Marcia’s complaint about men having younger LOs, could as easily be uttered by a man. In fact, in addition to that, I would say most middle aged men could complain that most women only want them for their money. Supposedly, women mind men being poor far more than men mind women being poor. And nowadays, with women being so highly educated and sometimes bringing in the big bucks, guess what, those women ALSO want men who earn more than they do. The pressure on the men is real and escalating. Now if they do not earn A LOT, they could potentially be just not considered by a woman as a partner, except for a roll in the hay for their genetic material. While one might say, lucky them, I disagree. I think men want meaningful, loving relationships as much as women do, and they too are being discounted evolutionarily.
Now, that is the “visceral” level of attraction Marcia mentioned, but one thing about us humans is that we can override those biological preferences, and often do. I am particular struck by how many of our friends here with younger LOs say they are normally attracted to women their age or older even. It is VERY interesting then that their LOs have tended to be younger AND probably possess other attractive characteristics that appeal specifically to a particular male limerent. I think although to their minds their LOs youth is immaterial, on an evolutionary level, it is not, not when it is limerence, not when it is the drive to pair bond.
I also mostly see youth and wealth as the main currency of power (I actually realized this when I was in my 20s, when women are at the height of their powers). Either of those is valued, but they are not equally weighted between the genders, youth being more valuable in women and wealth being more valuable in men. The theory is that people choose partners of about “equal mate value”. So, the older, wealthy guy, with the younger woman are actually getting an equal deal. But what of the older, not-so-wealthy guy? (the younger women may not want to trade their coin for that). What of the younger, poor guy? (he might not get the younger women either, unless they assess him as having good provider-potential, but if he works at it, he’ll age into a far more desirable partner). I actually think, a pretty good deal could be struck between a younger poorer guy and a richer older woman, but at some point, if the guy’s earnings go up, she is going to have less to trade with and risk the danger of being discarded.
And please, take this all with a grain of salt. We all are the same to some extent until we are not. And we are all more than our evolutionary destiny.
Wow, Limmy! Thank you!
Haha, THANK YOU for having the patience to read that, Lovisa! It took me awhile to write. I love speculating and thinking about the implications of all these observations. It is NEVER as simple as what we think.
I have also been thinking it will be so interesting to see how as our society changes, these innate biological preferences could change, or be over-ridden in predictable ways.
For example, I think for this new generation, the “two people of about the same age get married and have kids” default is just not working out.
Because of the cost of living, many young people are choosing not to have children. Or if they have them, they have them later when they have had time to gather resources.
Which means, it will be more likely when women start hearing their biological clocks and urgently want to have children, they will no longer look to their peer group (cos they are too poor to provide for a family around age 30), but will look to older men. I am guessing slightly bigger age gaps between breeding couples will be the norm.
So then we have a bunch of younger men who don’t have a large pool of women their own age. But, no problem. These guys DON’T actually want to have kids too – they are still working on their careers so they become the type of guy who can provide for kids, but later. In fact, women with ticking biological clocks are a bad match. What they want are women who are still attractive to them, who don’t desperately want to have kids. Who are these women? Well, I have noticed my friends divorcing in droves. They usually all come with a couple of kids. These women, especially if they are financially stable, would find slightly younger men quite a good match. They don’t need them to have a lot of money, their sex drives are more in sync (supposedly), and they are both pretty busy (him with career, her with her kids, and career if she has that too) so it is a fairly undemanding relationship.
Later on, these men could morph into men who do want kids – and THEN they will find younger, fertile women a better match, and those women will also find these financially-stable men a better fit for raising children. (Not sure what happens to the older woman at this stage? Older men? Other women?) And if these men never want kids, then it doesn’t really matter the age of the woman they are with (and there will be a subset of these).
Oh, and the fact that generally people are having children later and later means actually that men are primed to prefer older women too! I read that when a man’s primary caregiver is older, when he comes to chose his permanent mate (not the one-night-stands) he finds a closer physical match to his primary caregiver more appealing! I guess who we imprint on when we are young and tender might make a difference. So, who knows there may actually be a “visceral” attraction of younger men to older women.
I saw a few comments on the threads on this post where: people felt guilty about an age gap of 30 between themselves and their LOs; people felt ridiculous that they desired a younger person; or an older person; people thinking they could *never* be attracted to anyone that much older or younger, etc. I would actually like to see that sort of thinking to be challenged. All these “shoulds” are constructs, rules and norms that may not even make sense in the current social context, and often makes no sense at all to the heart that loves who it loves. Why in the world are people so narrow, so rigid, so inflexible, when it comes to who sleeps with who? I mean, we’re not talking about breaking a vow here – if there are no vows, what’s to stop any adult of any age loving another adult whatever their age is?
(sorry, ranting)
Anyway, just some thoughts … better to think these than ruminate over LO. By the way, I am calming down I think. I am getting into the space where, I guess so long as LO keeps safe (and I pray he will be), him being totally gone is going to make things easier for me!
Wow Limmy, you are a deep thinker. You have me pondering your ideas. So much of it rings true to me.
Miss Lovisa
A song that reminds me of LO
But if there if there is someone that makes you feel happy
Tends to your heart in the ways I have been lacking
Then who I am who I am I to stand in your way
The way that I feel
Is no longer your burdern
If there is someone that can make you feel perfect
Than who am I, who am I to stand in your way
I won’t stand in your way
Oh my gosh, Adam. There you go melting my heart again, as usual. I love it. You are a good, loving, and honorable man.
By the way, I like being elevated to āMiss Lovisa.ā It makes me feel like you would get an umbrella out of your truck just to walk me to my car, and I would love every second of your kindness!
And take off your coat and pull out your chair for you, Miss Lovisa.
I love it! Thank you, Adam.
Observations from my time on LwL:
– Whatever baggage you had in your last LE will carry over into your next LE.
– You often pick up more baggage from an LE than you came in with but you rarely come out of an LE with any less baggage.
– Even if youāre not looking for trouble, you can still find it.
– Your LO may be paying more attention to what you say than you realize.
= Your logic isnāt their logic. Your agenda isnāt their agenda. Your LOās and SOās ideas on things like infidelity may not be the same as yours. However, theyāre as entitled to their opinion as much as you are to yours.
– Even if you think that you are being crystal clear and your message canāt possibly be misconstrued, it can be misconstrued.
– The best of intentions donāt always yield good outcomes.
– Unintended consequences arenāt always unforeseen consequences. (e.g., pregnancy, STDs and unprotected sex)
– All answers are responses but not all responses are answers. Answers close questions. āI donāt knowā is a perfectly valid response but itās never an answer.
– Few people can define a āFairy-Tale-Endingā for their LE. Fewer people can pull off their FTE.
– Limerence can compel you to make some really bad decisions but theyāre still your decisions and you own them.
– Decisions can have consequences, sometimes serious ones.
– No one LE is exactly like another LE but they can be pretty close.
– Like heresy, limerence isnāt so much an error of mind as it is an error of will, albeit assisted by neurochemistry.
– Limerence may fade or it may not.
– Limerence can severely impact your life or it may have little to no impact.
– Not everybody that comes into your life is meant to stay there.
– LEs can be the catalyst for positive change but you have to catch some breaks and be smart enough to see them.
Feel free to add your own and attack at will. Theyāre just observations.
I would agree with much if this since being on LwL and reading many peoples stories. What stands out to me is that LE is at some level distressing and also life disruptive. If it was not, a website like this would not exist. But every LE also seems unique and can be very different depending on the factors, both internal, and external to the limerent.
My current LO is LO#3 and the first in 25 years. This LE hit me fast and completely unexpected. It has created much positive change so it’s hard for me to totally hate it, at the same time it has been so emotionally hard that I would not wish it on anyone.
But I think Dr. L has hit the nail on the head that for most limerents, purposeful living and NC or a level of LC is really the only way to truly get past it. The tricky part is that the road to getting to that point can be very winding and treacherous.
After much mess I might finally be there now. My focus now is on my own health and making right decisions for me when it comes to LO.
Have unwanted pregnancies and STDs ever happened here on LwL?? *boggled*
I don’t think so.
Limerence appears to have to contributed to several divorces, firings, and one claimed disbarrment.
DrL can answer that better.
Maybe there have been some in all the emails he sees.
The thing is I’ve dated and been attracted to many women in my “age range”. Also, while younger, my LO is not someone you would look at a picture of and think “wow she is stunning” I didn’t notice her much the first few months we worked together but once I got to know here she just shines. A truly beautiful person in the total sense. I definitely became attracted after that about 6 months in. It also isn’t just me, everyone in our friend group adores her.
It isn’t an age thing for me. It is a personal thing. I thought she filled some hole that I have inside me with her caring and understanding nature.
Maria I was raised irregardless of age to respect a lady. My LO is younger than me yes. Thats a rarity. Throughout my life Ive been more attracted to older women. Still am now. LO is an exception. Her age has nothing to do with how she captivates me. If she asked Id slaughter the whole world at her whim.
Because of her as a person my limerence blossoms. My glimmer is a rose budding. The sun that shines on the entire planet. What brightens the depths of the most depressing darkness. She is the light.
Marciaās comments really did a number on me. Before she directed her pain at Adam, I felt a sense of community here. I felt accepted despite my obvious flaws. I was learning a lot about the male perspective. We had a good flow going, or so I thought we did.
But now I am sad. Marcia is clearly hurt and lashing out. I am sad that the real person behind the internet name āMarciaā believes that she is obsolete because of her age. I know thatās not true, but I donāt know how to help her see it. That makes me sad.
I feel like some awesome men were put in an uncomfortable position, too. You boys felt safe to be vulnerable here, but now? I donāt know if youāll feel safe here anymore.
If this is the end of the magic, well, thanks guys. I learned a lot from you and I think highly of you.
Adam, you did not deserve that. Neither did the rest of you.
Marcia is free to express how she feels. All of us should here on this blog. I understand having limerence for a younger woman might make a woman, my wife, feel inadequate. But for me personally age is irrelevant to a point. And I would ask most 40 something women how theyād react to a genuine hit from some 20 something buff guy?
Either way LO being 15 years younger than me means little to do with being infatuated with the wonderful woman she is just like Miss Lovisa.
*Just like I might could with Miss Lovisa.
Aww, Adam you have a way of smoothing things over. Thank you so much. I feel much better.
“And I would ask most 40 something women how theyād react to a genuine hit from some 20 something buff guy?”
I would be amused, to be honest. Not in a “laughing at him” way … but in a chuckling, “why isn’t he hitting on women his own age” way. I’d wonder why the women his own age weren’t responding or assume he wanted to see what it was like to be with an older woman for a night.
I would take it well ā¦. take it well if that happened to my wife. In fact I would take it as a compliment that a younger man noticed my wife. As long as she gets in bed with me each night its not an issue.
And Ive said before outside of LO even at my age (and when I was younger) older women have always appealed to me than women my age at the time.
Well, I speak from personal experience. I hooked up with an older man once when I was in my early 20s. He was 40. I wanted to see if older men had different techniques, followed a different script sexually. I wasn’t particularly interested in him, per se. Which isn’t to say I’ve never found older men appealing, but it’s rare. It’s usually guys right around my age. Yes, even at my age now.
“older women have always appealed to me than women my age at the time.”
What do you mean by “older”? How much older? I don’t really consider 5 or 10 years that big of a deal and don’t really consider that “older,” but much more than that, and you’re running into not having as much in common, not having a frame of reference, being in different phases of life.
So if your LO is 15 to 20 years older than you, I’m impressed. š
Very interesting thread. Iāll stay out of it. I like that you two are having a good back and forth. Thank you.
Adam,
I agree with you that your LO being 15 years younger may have little to do with being attracted to her but it brings a lot of practical considerations into play.
LO #4 is 15 years younger than I am. It’s hard to accept that a 50yr old woman may be out of my range as too young but it’s a logistical consideration that would come into play should I ever become available and successfully re-engage her. We’re at different places in our lives.
All my other LOs’ ages were within a year or two of me, two younger, one older. My wife is 9 years younger than I am. I thought long and hard about that before I asked her to marry me. But, it’s worked for us.
If any woman young enough to be my daughter expressed a romantic interest in me, regardless of my marital status, I’d wonder why. I’d be far less flattered than cautious. Honestly, my thought would be the woman has problems or she wants something from me.
I’m not all that special. As far as desirability goes, I’d like to think I’m in the first standard deviation to the right of the mean but I can live with being in the first standard deviation to the left.
True story:
In my late 50s, I was detailed to a different group in my organization for 6 months. As it turned out, several of my co-workers were attractive young women in their early 30s. In an odd coincidence, we all had birthdays within a day or two of each other. We decided to have a group lunch. I was the only rooster in the henhouse. Four of them, one of me.
We asked the waitress to take a picture. It was great. I showed it to a friend who asked if my wife had any problems with me hanging out with those young women. My response to him was,
“No, it’s their mothers that [name] would have a problem with me hanging out with.”
One day, one of the mothers was visiting work and I was introduced to her. I was right, my wife would not want me hanging around with that woman.
“If any woman young enough to be my daughter expressed a romantic interest in me, regardless of my marital status, Iād wonder why. Iād be far less flattered than cautious. Honestly, my thought would be the woman has problems or she wants something from me.”
I would think the same thing. Tbh, I’d wonder if they were hitting me because they thought I was lower hanging fruit. I went to a bar a few months ago and a very young guy was hitting on me. He was very drunk and the bar was about to close. You get where I’m going with this. My friends were encouraging me. I’m not sure why.
For an old and truly sexist view:
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/98062-in-all-your-amours-you-should-prefer-old-women-to
Kind of ironic … his writing that … when he himself was no hunk.
Marcia,
Very ironic.
Well in my 20ās (I was a late bloomer) when I started taking an interest in women it was my motherās friends. Or my friendsā mothers. I knew something wasnāt right with me. Sure I dated within my age group to save face but it wasnt what I wanted. I had no interest in girls. I was interested in women. My first real hard crush (possibly my first limerence) was a 50 something woman from church when i was 21 years old.
Idk. That’s really a lot older. Have you thought about why?
I did have a big crush on a man in his mid- to late 40s when I was about 18 or 20. But he was like a male version of Marilyn Monroe. He was really sexy. Everybody was into him. So I’m not sure he counts.
I have a lot of feminine authority issues due to the fact my father worked and my mother didnt until I was a senior in high school and so all my delinquent behavior was reprimanded by mother no questions asked. So I guess that translated into viewing older women differently than most men my age would have at that age.
But can you see how that might not be see as all that flattering for older women? I mean, your reason for being into them.
Now that we are discussing this topic, I do remember having a very brief, very mild crush — it went away practically overnight– on my friend’s dad when I was about 17. But I think that was because he was the kind of dad I wanted my father to be. So if he knew that was the reason for my interest, would my interest have been appealing? I’m not implying he did anything to encourage me. But let’s say I was 20 instead of 17 since 17 is under age.
Marcia,
Please understand that the reason Adam, Rufio, and I have congregated in this particular blog is because we have similar LO stories. Other blogs have people with very different stories. Yes, we all happen to have younger LOs from the workplace. That is why we found each other here and Lovisa and L.E. have been very kind to help us through it in real time. But I have read stories on LwL where the LO is an older female boss to a younger male as well and then countless similar age stories.
As I stated somewhere above, my next biggest crush in life right this moment is a woman that is 2 years older than me in her early 50s. I’ve crushed on this woman for over 15 years. If this woman contacted me today confessing her love for me, I would be in big trouble and current LO would be immediately kicked to the curb and I am certain LO#4 would be named.
I mean, ok. But aren’t you married? So an LO and a crush?
I think limerence is an elaborate psychological escape. It’s not real. It’s something to occupy the mind. It took me a heck of a long time to figure that out.
Yes, I’m married but I always have had crushes. Always. Two, maybe three at any given time. Women whom I have a strong sexual attraction to AND also an attraction to who they are as a person. But I was never limerent for them. I barely fantasize over them and I never have intrusive or depressive thoughts about them.
If I am being honest, I feel on a psychological romantic level I struggle with the idea of monogamy. I love my wife, she is fantastic, but I have always had/have romantic feelings for many woman. None of this ever rises to LE level though…until now with my LO. She’s different and it has thrown me upside down.
“If I am being honest, I feel on a psychological romantic level I struggle with the idea of monogamy. I love my wife, she is fantastic, but I have always had/have romantic feelings for many woman. ”
Does your wife know that?
It’s very different for me. I don’t know how your wife experiences things, but I’m not attracted to that many men. Maybe one. Tops, two, at any given time. So I guess I could see having an SO for a while and years later … some big crush/limerence. However you want to define it. But that would be rare. So there would be hot eye candy, which is just something to look at and would not make a dent. People I may enjoy interacting with/flirting with but who I would not take seriously, who would not make a dent. There’d the SO. And then (but I wouldn’t be looking for it) an LO or big crush. Maybe.
I mention all this because .. given the disparity … if I were your wife, I want to know how differently you experience things.
Speedy, what you struggle with is normal. Of course you still notice other women, but you donāt act on it because you are loyal to your wife, at least you try to be loyal. You are not perfect, but really trying. Maybe before we married our SOs, we all believed that we would be narrowly focused on our SO for the rest of our lives. That doesnāt seem to be realistic. Before I married, my SO asked me to never fake aā¦um how do I say this politely?ā¦never fake a climax. That was a challenge early on. We were figuring out each otherās bodies as well as figuring out our own. I wasnāt climaxing and my adorable new hubby was frustrated and hurt. He felt like he was doing something wrong, I didnāt like disappointing him. I was tempted to fake it just to relieve his frustration, but I couldnāt go back on my promise. I heard a woman on talk radio say that women have to figure out what fantasies arouse them and then pursue those fantasies in their mind with their lover and then they could climax. I felt guilty about it, but I knew it would only be in my head and it might help me and SO connect better and hopefully he wouldnāt feel like he was disappointing me. So I figured out what fantasies turn me on, started playing through those thoughts when my hubby was pleasuring me andā¦ it worked. Yay. So thatās what I do. We are very active in the bedroom even after 24 years of marriage. Iām mentally present when I pleasure my SO, but I get lost in a fantasy when he pleasures me. I havenāt told him and I probably never will, but hopefully it wouldnāt be hurtful to him if he knew.
Along those lines, I donāt care if he notices or thinks about other women. As long as he behaves appropriately towards other women and directs his sexual energy towards me, he can think about whatever he wants as far as Iām concerned. And if he developed limerence for a younger woman at workā¦ hmmm, I think it could make me feel obsolete because of my age, I donāt know for sure, but I hope I would be patient and compassionate about it. Honestly, I think I would only really get upset if I felt like I lost something because of his interest in the other woman. Like if he was less affectionate or neglected his responsibilities too much. Then it might bother me. It would also bother me if he did something stupid at work that tarnished his reputation or hurt someone else. As long it was just in his head and not causing problems with his behavior, I wouldnāt care. And if he suddenly lost weight and became more optimisticā¦ Iād probably high-five the woman who inspired that behavior.
Speedy, I love it when you open up and talk about the hard stuff. I am learning so much from you. I would love to hear how the men would respond if they learned that their wife navigated marital relationships in the same way that I navigate mine. Maybe I am doing something right, maybe I need a wake up call. Iāve never had the opportunity to talk to anyone about something so personal.
I thought that was pretty much known and is why it is often linked to past trauma, attachment styles, etc. I’ve said several times here that I think part of my LE is I have big time regrets about how I lived my 20’s and early 30’s. LO is the type of girl I should have paid attention to. The type of girl I should have married.
I’ll date myself by saying I spent to much time looking for Britney Spears and missed so much beauty and warmth that was right in front of my face. Now old me just suffers from the thoughts of it. I wasted my time and never got married or started a family. I have to find a way to deal with it that is healthy though.
Rufio, I donāt think that ship has sailed away without you. There are plenty of lovely, single women.
Thanks for sharing your experience. Itās interesting that we are all here suffering from the same ailment even though we took different paths to get here.
I have to share a funny dream I had last night that relates to my current situation.
I had a dream that 2 of my female employees (both not LO) were going to come to my home to have dinner with the wife and I. These employees have actually done that before so this was a reflection of a real life event.
We have some windows by our front door that look into a great room kitchen/living area. For some reason I was naked and I went to check the windows and they were there on the front porch looking in. I was very embarrassed about my nudity and tried to hide really quick. I could see them still peeking in the windows and was worried they saw me.
I yelled for them to hold on and made it down to my closet to throw some clothes on but had a hard time getting clothes out of the closet onto my body. It felt like I went through every item of clothes before I finally managed to get a Tshirt and shorts on to go open the door. The whole time I kept yelling to hold on.
My decipher…the females from the office actually represent LO. My nudity out in the open for them to see was my messy disclosure to LO. My struggle to get clothes on so I could simply answer the door is my struggled attempt to smooth over the disclosure and bring things back normal with LO.
Thoughts?
My thought…
The last paragraph is pretty close. I see things a little differently. I think the focus on your LO is off. It’s something else.
It sounds like you’re not as confident that things at work are completely dealt with as you wish they were.
Was the Busybody one of the women on the porch or two of her allies?
Whomever, they represent threats. Your yelling for them to hold on and the struggle to cover up is that you’re trying to buy time to cover your naked ass while you figure out a solution that you can implement. That you tried every piece of clothing in your closet and only managed a T-shirt and shorts implies you don’t have a solution appropriate for the occasion to implement. It also implies a very casual attitude to the occasion.
But, what do I know? I didn’t actually take the “Magic, Mysticism, and Power” class in college, but I did meet the professor and read his book.
Your subconscious is telling you something, you should listen to it.
I agree with you more in depth analysis. Right now everything is being held together by scotch tape and I have no solutions other than time and stable routine.
Yes, the OE was one of the employees there in the dream. OE and my LO had coffee this week and hashed out their issues. LO told me it went really well and she has peace about it. That is positive.
But, as an aside, something weird happened last night. A couple days ago when LO told me over text that the meeting with her and OE was really good, and that OE had apologized, I texted back that I was glad and thought she deserved an apology. LO gave a heart emoji to that specific text of mine. I thought nothing of it and the texting stopped with that brief exchange. Well, 2.5 days later I get a text notification…she unhearted that comment. I hope it is a simple explanation like not wanting to lead me on thru texting and not an indication of a more complex issue.
I should say, the issue she may have is not with my response but with her sending me a heart emoji. After a couple days, she may think that is too emotionally charged emoji.
Check out this: https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-dreams/#comment-9518
The whole Limerence Dreams article is pretty entertaining.
You have me laughing, Speedwagon. I agree with your interpretation of the dream.
Clip of the Thread: “Apollo 13” (1995)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_I1xmpGEDc
Failure was not an option and they pulled it off.
Don’t panic.
Mark Twain had some ideas related to some of the comments in this post:
https://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/twain/letearth.htm
“Letters From The Earth” is great but you can just skip to Letter VIII.
Dear friends,
I’m a little sad that I’m back so soon. It was genuinely wonderful while the lack of limerence lasted, but I was derailed by something totally unexpected. LO told me that he had enlisted. This affected me very deeply. The thought of him being hurt or dying – I just cried and cried. š It was so bad that my SO even noticed my misery, and I have had (for the first time really) had to actually lie about why I have been crying. The LE had never bled into my life quite so obviously before. I am a little bitter it has now, when it is basically over (apart from this unexpected derailment).
I still have no expectations of LO, which I think means I still accept that he is not mine to love – or lose. So, I’m not waiting with a bated breath or fantasizing about a future with him (thank goodness) but I do feel that odd tension which is how I characterize the LE in this late stage. It’s a little hard to concentrate on my chosen focus (my purposeful life) which had been forefront of my mind for a couple of weeks. But I have faith I will get back there.
I just wanted to tell you guys.
On a different note: SO MUCH has happened to all of you! Wow. I might weigh in on some, because I am so interested in all of you and your stories.
Sorry to hear it.
It was a double whammy. Not only are you worried about his safety and well being, his enlisting is another sign your not really a part of his life.
For limerents, accepting that often takes awhile and comes with disenfranchised grief.
The frosting on that cake is the guilt that comes from lying to the one person who you can’t really share it with, your SO.
If you can control your leakage, you’ll get through this.
@ Limerent Emeritus
Every single word you say here is true, LE.
I think I will get through this. But nothing about this is easy.
Limmy, when I saw your name on the recent posts list, I got excited, āLimmy is back!ā Then it dawned on me that you being back means something isnāt going well. The excitement dissipated quickly. I wish you were here for a positive update or just a check in. Iām sorry you are struggling, but itās good to hear from you either way.
Your reaction makes sense. That is really hard. I experience similar unsettling realizations with my LOs, too. I think it shows that we care about them. My current LO does trail running and I am aware of the dangers involved that sport. I recently trained him on a navigation tool because it makes me feel a little better just knowing that he has an extra tool to help him if he gets in trouble. I understand the āI donāt want anything bad to happen to my LOā feeling. And the follow up feeling hurts too, āNo one would tell me if he was hurt.ā
Hang in there, Limmy. And welcome back!
Oh and you need to read what Adam said about God putting sunshine in his LO. Itās adorable! Youāll love it!
@Lovisa
Thank you for being happy AND unhappy about me being back. It is such a lovely, classic Lovisa response, it made me smile.
Yes, you reaction about keeping safe on trail running exactly. Also about not being told if he was hurt.
I will go hunt up Adam’s sunshine comment, it sounds really sweet. Maybe we all should have a, “this is how I see my LO thread”. Afterall, it probably reveals (to ourselves even) what it is that we project onto LO that is missing from our own lives that we so desperately want that it pushed us into a LE.
Limmy, thank you for your kind response.
That is a great idea! I am pondering how I see my LOsā¦
LO1 was smart and seductive
LO2 also smart and needed to be rescued
LO3 soothing and strong
All three have excellent leadership skills
All three narrowly focused their attention on me. I think this is what draws me in: the attention.
I played tag with my daughters, nephews and nieces tonight. They love being chased! It excites them. I wonder if I am so juvenile that I just love being chased. Maybe thatās why I become limerent. I love the feeling of a manās attention fully focused on me. Ugh, I should talk to a therapist about this.
Thanks for asking such a helpful question.
Lovisa, you are a joy. “I played tag with my daughters, nephews and nieces tonight. They love being chased! It excites them. I wonder if I am so juvenile that I just love being chased. Maybe thatās why I become limerent.” Haha, I was just charmed.
“I love the feeling of a manās attention fully focused on me.”
Oh, don’t we all. Nothing that makes a woman feel more alive.
Oh Limmy, thanks for the validation. I was thinking I need to see a therapist about my love of a manās focused attention, then it hit me, āWhat woman wouldnāt love that? Maybe Iām not broken, maybe Iām normal.ā
It helps to hear it from you.
I am sorry to hear Limmy. That is difficult news in general when it is someone we care about. But there is a level of bravery that most people will understand when it comes to people that choose to enlist their service to this country in the military. Your SO is indeed a brave person and I grateful for his choice. He has gone above and beyond and we are grateful for his sacrifice.
God my drunk typing ā¦.
*most people will never understand
*LO
@Adam
Thanks for this, Adam. I am so touched that you feel that way about LO’s action of service. I’m going to tell you (and everyone here by extension, but really I feel moved to share this because of what you said) part of why perhaps this enlistment news was so difficult.
When LO first told me he was thinking about enlisting (ages ago; now he has actually enlisted), I saw this look in his eyes, when he talked of laying his body on the line. He was staring sacrifice right in the face. This was not a trivial decision. He knew he could die. I felt … I don’t know, that swelling of something akin to admiration and gratitude and the feeling you would get if you gazed upon something incredibly precious. I suspect that was very much a part of me falling for him, because the next day I wept over him for the first day. I had to park my car in the corner of a deserted carpark and just cried and cried. I was like, this is insane, you haven’t known this person for even a month, and now the thought of him dying has you crying uncontrollably? It was perhaps for me, the moment I realized this was not a run-of-the-mill kind of attraction. I was … overwhelmed. Which is what limerence is.
So now he’s gone and done it. Perhaps it was inevitable, because of this history that this news was always going to shake me.
One of the things Iāve learned in 45 years of life and 23 years of marriage is you choose who you want to love for the rest of you life but you donāt choose who you will love for life. And that is absolute torture.
Miss Lovisa, why do I love SO and LO both at the same time? Disclamier: Im really drubk.
Oh gosh Adam! Hang in there! Lovisa will be here soon, but until then, keep yourself safe. Are you in a safe spot??
Im at home Im safe. I love her you know. But why both?
I can tell you are in such pain. I feel for you, I really do.
I think … maybe we are taught an idea that we can only love one. Our society is set up to support that. But the heart is far more complex and beautiful and has its own way of making itself known.
The thing is we made a promise. To keep that means that if we love others, we need to forsake them. This rends our heart into two, it wants who it wants. Both sometimes.
I can tell you, I’ve wondered sometimes. No more dopamine hits, no more norepinephrine spikes. I’ve eradicated them all. And yet. What is this that is left? I am terrified to even think the L word. But if it is love, in its purest form, I can love and let go of the need to possess.
The messages we get are sometimes so contradictory. The world could do with more love, nothing is more important than love, love is the most beautiful thing, etc. but there is a caveat of who you can and cannot love.
Thank you, Limmy. You are a kind woman.
Sorry Adam, Sundays can be quite busy for me.
Why do you love both? Because you have an abundance of love in your heart. You can love a lot of people. The important part is that you stay true to your vows.
Isnāt it great to have Limmy back?
Miss Lovisa good to see you. I understand you have other obligations. It was a bad day yesterday trying to keep LO out of my head and as you can see I reached for my unhealthy coping mechanism.
And yes it was nice to get to talk to Limmy. Her words were very helpful and soothing. They definitely helped me get through the day and night.
But I must apologize to all for my behavior last night. I shall try to maintain sober next time I post after work.
I also just had a realization last night as I was trying to go to sleep; LO’s name is the one of two names both my wife and I were deciding on for both times she was pregnant if we had a girl. Earlier my wife and I were talking about a family member of hers that had a baby girl and we got to talking about names and suddenly hours later as I was trying to sleep I remembered that. Maybe that’s another reason I fell hard for her. LO has one of my favorite female names.
Thanks for the apology, Adam. Itās no problem at all. You needed a friend, you did the right thing when you reached out, and Limmy was there. Iām glad she was online yesterday. I had my church obligations and then I took my 9-year-old niece running. She is such a tough girl! It was below freezing and she never complained.
Iām glad you reached out last night. Drunk or soberā¦ whatever, Iām just glad you reached out. It is interesting that I feel like we are sharing our darkest sides in this community. Itās kind of nice to be less than perfect and still accepted by other people.
Oh and one more thing, maybe LOās name is relevant but I doubt it. I think she is a delightful lady. Probably if she had a terrible name likeā¦ I donāt knowā¦ Who-gamma-goo, you would be saying stuff like, āIsnāt Who-gamma-goo the prettiest name you ever heard?ā
Speaking of LO namesā¦My LOās name is the same as my closest brotherās name and it kinda bugs me. I donāt like associating my brothersā names with sexual feelings. Ewe! Many times, I have considered asking LO if I could use his middle name which just happens to be my goldfishās name, I can handle that. What I do instead is if Iām really feeling drawn to him, I use his full name. It helps lower the ewe feeling.
Am so glad to hear I managed to help a bit, Adam. You are a good man, really you are, I can tell.
I need a purpose in my life. Iām not sure if it is because it is Monday or what, but as I sit here waiting to see if Iāll interact with LO today everything outside of her feels so colorless.
I donāt feel bad really, at least not like the strong grasp of the LE a few weeks back. However, I do feel a bit melancholy as if everything is ephemeral, untouchable.
Anyway, short start of the week thought train.
Don’t wait and see…go initiate a brief interaction with her right now. It will ease your mind. Your days with her are numbered, take control of them.
It feels like you are ready to find someone to share life with. After LO leaves throw purpose into that. Get excited about it and I bet you find someone in 2023. Be optimistic.
I second that! Speedwagon is right, Rufio.
Also, maybe a hobby or volunteer work. I work with abused and neglected children. It is called being a CASA where I live. You might have a program like that in your area. Something that these kids lack is the presence of a stable, healthy male. Just a thought.
Happy Monday everyone!
Ok ok ok, had a good talk. You were right. Going to be a busy week with some exec level people on campus so might not have a lot of chances. Glad I got that one in.
Hey rufio, hang in there. I’ve actually felt these colorless, grey moments around the time limerence was going from super-intense to less intense. And interestingly enough, when I felt I was over it (until this set back brought me back) EVEN when I was totally immersed in my purposeful life (and loving it), a spark was missing in that part which I think is the part of us which is lit up by romance, specifically. So, I think purpose is very very good for transferring rumination to something productive and decreasing intrusive thoughts (the best part by far) and creating a barometer from which to make decisions, but it does not fill that part which longs for romance, if that is your thing.]
Still, don’t get me wrong, I would take it over being in LE in a heartbeat. So peaceful! So clear and purposeful. No obsessive thoughts.
Thank you for the support Limmy! I think you are right. I am just hanging tough right now. I really plan on getting into the dating market again after LO leaves because it will basically NC at that point. Right now other women just don’t seem that appealing. Also, crazy as it may sound and I think I’ve said here before I would almost feel like I was cheating(specifically emotionally) on her. It is actual insanity and makes no sense but I feel it in my gut when I’m around other women.
I’m sure it stems from us sharing intimate things about anxiety and family problems and I know she doesn’t talk to anyone else at work about it.
The intrusive thoughts are one of my biggest problems still, first thing in the morning and last thing before sleep. I will be doing something and think ” I can wait to tell X about this” or “X would think this is funny”.
I even let a piece of feeling besieged slip today as I was telling her some revelation I came to over the weekend and said “this is bad but I thought to myself I have to tell X about this”. She said, “That’s not bad!” I think I recovered by saying “well, I don’t mean bad like bad but…blah blah” and the conversation carried on.
Glad she didn’t know the full context of “bad” was I was thinking about you all weekend and I can’t wait to share things with you. =(
ā Glad she didnāt know the full context of ābadā was I was thinking about you all weekend and I canāt wait to share things with you.ā
Oh Rufio, we have all been there.
Lol Miss Lovisa you are probably right. It wouldn’t matter what her name was I’d still being seeing stars. LO has told me her middle name too. Funny thing on names is when I met LO there was another woman in that office (she since quit a long time ago) that had the same name as LO. So LO went by her madian last name. So I spent a long time not knowing that what LO went by wasn’t her first name until months into working with her. When I found out though it felt weird to call her by her actual first name. So she said that it was fine if I still wanted to call her by that name. I am the only one left that calls her that. Most everyone else called her by her first name since there was no need for a distinction anymore.
I can understand your feelings about LO’s name. It would be quite difficult if LO had the same name as my sister or mother so I understand the ewe factor. Perhaps LO would like you to call him by his middle name giving you two something unique to just the two of you.
And I want to thank you and Limmy again as your words really do help me through those LE that really make the intrusive thoughts hard to take.
Oh, another thing Miss Lovisa, my wife had fell asleep on the couch Sunday morning. She had been fighting a migraine most of the night. I had gotten up to get something to drink and I walk back in the room and found myself just standing there watching her sleep. She woke up and she asked “what’s wrong?” and I just was like “nothing momma just checking on you. get some rest” and then she went back to sleep and I still stood there for another five minutes or so. Don’t what compelled me to watch her. But I think it helped.
Thanks for sharing that moment between you and Mrs. Adam. What were you thinking about? Iām just curious.
My husband still looks at me like Iām Christmas morning and I love it! I wonder how he can look at the same body for 24 years with that cute, happy goofy expression of infatuation. Seriously, I was trying to have a conversation with him the other day and he actually said, āIām really trying to hear what youāre saying, but your body is distracting me. I know, I know, your eyes are up there, but I just canāt stop looking down there.ā Lol. Adorable.
Hmmm, I wonder if your wife likes being called āMommaā by her lover. Do you put adjectives before it like, āSmoking hot Mommaā or āSexy Mommaā because women love to feel sexy. Okay maybe not all women, some of them actually get offended and I donāt understand why, but I think most women want to feel desirable.
Just a thought.
I wished I could get my wife to see that about herself. This thing with LO has I think hurt her self esteem and she thinks that I want something from LO that don’t want from her. So physical intimacy of any kind has been very limited. She can wear that thing I like that she’s had for like 10 years and I am putty in her hands. But all she thinks is there is a younger prettier (even though she has never met LO) woman on my mind and I want things from her that I now longer want. When that is the furthest from the truth.
So one leaves me and the other distances me. I guess it’s what I deserve and I have to work it out.
As far as what you mentioned when your husband is distracted by you, reminds me of when my wife gets mad or upset about something and we are having a heated discussion/argument that’s when gets me all hot and bothered. Something about an angry woman turns the heat up for me, but I rarely say anything because that just makes her more mad.
She use to hate when I called her momma. I guess she’s use to it by now. And when my parents visit she can see where I get it from as my folks, in the home, always called each other “mom/dad” or one of their other pet names for each other. So it’s normal to me to call her “momma”. My other pet name for her is “sugar”.
And yeah even though things are not well now between us, and I know she’s not going to reciprocate I still tell her that I think about being with her because she still turns me on. I know it will be a long road before she comes around with intimacy so I take small steps. I came up behind when she was cooking this weekend and put my arms around her waist and kissed her neck. She didn’t say anything but she also didn’t pull away or anything. So maybe soon.
Thanks for sharing, Adam. That is helpful information.
You get turned on by angry womenā¦lol. You would really like my sister. Angry women are actually my biggest fear. Itās really hard for me to be friends with women because I feel like they are unpredictable. I feel much safer with men. But thatās beside the point.
Did the intimacy end around the same time your limerence started? Can you help me with a time line? Include this stuff and any other big changes.
Your kids didnāt need as much parenting.
You fell for LO.
The intimacy diminished with SO.
Can you give me an idea of when these things happened and how much time was between each thing?
Only share what you are comfortable sharing, okay?
That is sweet.
Every woman I’ve ever loved that I had the opportunity to watch sleep, I’ve watched sleep.
There’s something about it that makes you love them more.
Awwww. For real? Iāve watched my kids sleep, but not my husband. Thanks for the tip!
I used to watch my oldest sleep and it brought me joy because I was so in love with her. When I watched my son sleep, I was like, āOh thank goodness he is sleeping, we get a break. Whew!ā
For real.
Sometimes, when I’d wake up, I’d roll over on my side, and just watch them, thinking how lucky I was.
People are at their most vulnerable when they sleep.
There was something about the feeling that they were there because they wanted to be and trusted me that’s indescribable.
Trust has always been a huge thing for me. For me, trust is an odd measure of my self-worth. If someone trusts me, I must be ok. It’s one of the many things that I brought out of childhood. Maybe it’s because I didn’t feel there were all that many people around me that I could trust.
Those women trusted me when they were most vulnerable.
That went sideways.
āThat went sideways.ā Lol, no it didnāt. Youāre funny.
You remind me so much of my LO2. Heās an engineer.
“Those women trusted me when they were most vulnerable.”
Ah, Limerent Emeritus, that is your key. Based on the scenarios you described with you LOs, I think you have identified it.
I met LO for the first time in Dec 2020. I had talked to her prior on the phone when she started in May 2020. The last real abundance of intimacy was around April/May 2020. We had some sprinkles here and there when her bipolar wasn’t screwing up her libido. But in reality it has been little to nothing since early 2019. We were having some intimacy issues even before I ever met LO. Mostly due to her bipolar. And this is the longest low cycle she has had since he was diagnosed in 2009.
We had a REALLY nice Valentines Day 2020. She surprised me big time and well …. she really surprised me. It went on for about another two months and then it was back to little to none. I have learned that most times like this it’s best to let her get through and not try to make her feel guilty or anything so I just do without and give her time without harassing her. But since about June 2020 its been a desert. I have asked a few times if there is something I can do to help her but she says its the bipolar and doesn’t seem to want to make any effort for intimacy.
So for most of the rest of 2020 it was if anything self service. March 2021 was when I started working everyday at LO’s location until around the middle June. Between then and June 2022 when LO quit I would still go to her location 3-4 days a month or so. And that is when the limerence began, June/July 2021. I noticed more things about LO. Both in her personality and in her appearance. I tried to initiate more interactions with her. Still platonic and professional. She was very friendly but never more than that when talking with me.
Around Nov/Dec of 2021 was when LO started seeing the man she is with now. Though I didn’t actually know that till the beginning of 2022. She never hid it but she was never forthcoming about him. He would visit her when I was there but she strangely never introduced me even though everyone else in the building knew him by name. It seemed she was either hiding me from him, of him from me for some reason.
In August of 2021 is when my wife came at me with thinking that LO and I were having a PA. The rest of that year was unbearable. My wife was very angry and many times said very hateful things about LO that ended up in an argument because I would defend LO that she would not be the type of woman that would get involved with a married man. I didn’t know it then but LO got divorced because her ex cheated on her. The affair thing dragged on into the next year.
This is when the intimacy stopped after this accusation. We celebrated our anniversary in Oct 2021 and that was the last time we had a sexual encounter. Our anniversary came and went in 2022 and it is the first time we have ever not celebrated it in some fashion. As it felt more and more depressing the longer it went on I just stopped trying. And physical touch is very much my love language by a landslide. I even read the book.
Nov of 2021 I had heard from LO that she was very stressed and being unreasonable treated by the corporate office that she had to report to daily. I took a day off and traveled down to her location to talk to mine and her’s supervisor. And by talk I mean I told him “this shit has to stop” and I was afraid that LO was going to quit. LO didn’t know until the day before I talked our supervisor I was going to be there. I don’t think our supervisor thought I knew what I was talking about. May 24, 2022 LO called me and told me she had put in her two week notice. There was someone else here in my office and probably the only reason I could keep it together. If I would have been alone when she told me that I might have lost it. Her last day was June 3, 2022.
I got home that evening of Nov 29 2022 from talking on LO’s behalf and went home and picked up my wife and we went to eat at her favorite Mexican restaurant. This is the first time since early 2020 that we actually sat and ate a meal together. She actually asked how the conversation went about LO. She asked if I thought I got my point across so LO would stay. I told her that LO’s daughter was with her so I couldn’t talk to much about how she felt about staying since her daughter was around. My wife asked how old her daughters were. And asked about her gentleman friend. This is the one and only conversation I have had with my wife about LO that remained civil. And my wife actually called LO by her name. Usually she just refers to LO as “her” with anger in her voice. I was quite surprised she was being so nice about LO and thought maybe we are making progress.
So on June 1 I told my wife my plans to visit LO on her last on the 3rd. I invited my wife to come with me and meet LO. I told my wife, and meant it not just saying to smooth things over, that there was a lot of her that I saw in LO. But she declined to meet LO. So I took a cake and some drinks and had bought LO a few things to remember the people she worked with by. She said she was very touched by the gifts I got her and that they were very thoughtful.
Sorry … the memories are getting to me. I walked her plants to her truck that she had at her desk and she actually let me help her and hold the door open for her as she always didn’t like being treated lady-like. But she knew I liked doing those things for her just like I do my wife so she let me do them for her.
And then she drove away and I was left alone …..
*I got home that evening of Nov 29 2021
Too many dates I was bound to get one wrong lol
Lol, no problem
That is sooooooo helpful, and it makes sense! Adam, I donāt want to put my two cents in yet, because I suspect you gained a lot of insight just by revisiting those memories. Answer this questionā¦
Is there anything else?
But, if itās not a good time to visit painful stuff, it is okay to get back to me later. By the way, if you can do it, Iād like to have this discussion while both of us are sober. I promise not to drink if you donāt (wink).
Only other thing I can think of that could be related to it now that you say something, 20 years ago within the first three years of our marriage a female young female employee pursued me rather subtly. Enough that it was out of hand before I could fix it. My wife found out about it from texts that this gal was sending me. I was either an idiot, naive, or flattered, or all three and I let it get out of hand. There was never anything PA or anything like that. I wasn’t ever alone with her. I only saw her at work. But it was getting too familiar and of course most importantly I hurt my wife’s feelings.
This is the biggest reason why now that LO has quit any communication is going to be from her initiative. And why I never even when she worked here contacted her after work hours. Though I have contacted the other young lady that works there (and still does) with some joke or meme or something as we both have similar sense of humor. And my wife has no issue with me contacting her even outside of work hours. In fact my wife has actually talked to via speaker phone when she’s called me.
And I brought this incident up plenty of times in this disaster about LO. I told her she can be mad at me, hate me, not trust me, interrogate me, whatever. She can check my phone and all my apps and sites I go to I stay logged into. I even offered to take her to my job and let her go through my work computer. I never expected her to let this go. She may have forgiven me but I know she has never forgotten.
My issue is with how she feels about LO when she has never met LO and doesn’t know her. But my wife says that she trusts me, she just thinks if I am not having a PA that I am at least having a EA or in love with LO.
Like I said I don’t expect much kindness from her about me. But I know what LO wouldn’t even if I was trying to with her. But my wife has a very intense hate for LO and it makes me sad because I think they would get along well and that would really make me happy that the two women most important to me in life got along.
Glad you jogged my memory Miss Lovisa. It might be a bigger piece of the puzzle than I remembered. And as I have said my wife and I have discussed it. In every way she acts/reacts seems like she doesn’t trust and can’t take my word. But every time I bring it up she says she trusts me. But her actions are contrary.
One last thing on three separate occasions my wife and I have discussed legal separation if we thought we couldn’t work through this. I don’t want that but I’m stupid enough to think that this is something unforgivable in her eyes. Thankfully it’s probably been six months since the last time we did.
Adam, this is all helpful information. Guilt is eating you alive. Your guilt is disproportionate to your actions. Keep in mind who you are talking to. Iām pretty chill about this stuff but some women have zero tolerance for it. I canāt actually speak for your wife. But something is obviousā¦ you need to forgive yourself.
More to comeā¦
That is a lot of good information. You are good at expressing yourself and way more aware than you give yourself credit for.
You and SO have a tough situation. Have you tried counseling? I suspect your wife has her own worries and you think itās because of your behavior towards LO and the woman from a long time ago, but you could be wrong. It could be something else.
A few thoughts about your timelineā¦
The limerence started in July 2021 and your wife accused you of a PA in August of 2021. I suspect you donāt hide your limerence well. She saw something in your behavior and she was right to say something. True that she was harsh, but bringing it to your attention was the right thing to do.
It sounds like there were problems in your marriage before you met LO. Limerence can actually cause us to rewrite history. It sounds like that isnāt the case for you.
It also sounds like you are lacking intimacy and LO filled that void. Your limerence makes sense.
Nowā¦ we just need to find a way for you and your wife to reconnect. Hmmmm. I would guess that her intimacy needs arenāt getting met eitherā¦ hmmm
Have either of you brought up counseling?
2 weeks past disclosure now and LO seems…OK maybe??? She is being hard to read today. She came in and her normal disposition towards me seems a little more mellow I guess. Like there is a lot going on in her head that she is trying to make sense of and she doesn’t quite know how to act around me. I can understand that and I’m giving her a lot of space to just be.
On the other hand, of her own accord, she brought up the outing I need to do Friday and she wants to come with. That was a surprise, so I guess I am going out of office with her Friday. I told her she didn’t need to if she did not want to. It’s not mandatory at all, but she wants. I guess this might be good to get back to some normalcy with her and I will be on my very best behavior with her to make her as comfortable as possible.
Hope that you and LO enjoy the outing. Sometimes it nice to get out of the office and break up the routine a little bit. And I am sure you will do all you can to make LO comfortable as possible.
Speedy,
If you can, bring a third person along. It will save you a lot of needless scrutiny and speculation.
It also sends a message to your LO.
Do you have any interns that need a field trip?
This is good advice. A chaperone would be good for moral and so that rumors in the office don’t get out of hand even if you have no ill intentions with your LO.
That’s why I was never alone with LO or went somewhere with just her, like lunch. There was always a third person present.
It’s possible, yes. 2 people I could bring usually work from home Fridays, but it would not be out of the ordinary to have another come along. It would be redundant, and an inefficient use of time, but possibly worth it this go around considering everything.
It’s a post-Covid, WAH world. You can blame Covid for a lot of things, valid or not.
If they balk, just tell them you’re trying to develop a bench you can draw on if you’re not available.
Consider it OPW (Other Productive Work). If it keeps the office running smoothly by suppressing gossip and speculation, it’s productive.
Buy lunch.
“you need to forgive yourself”
I don’t know how to do that. I know limerence is different than a flirty female co-worker trying to manipulate you with her wiles. But on the outside, to my wife, maybe it looks the same. And now she is hurt again. And then again maybe it is not and there is a deeper issue.
No we haven’t at any length talked about doing counseling. I think for now her willingly talking about LO is a step in the right direction. And the last few mentions have been a calmer and more productive than the ones before.
Yes perhaps I did near to hear about a possible PA as a warning. And she honestly wasn’t too harsh the first time in August. I was just really taken aback because I honestly don’t want that with LO. Maybe way back when I first met her and I just saw a pretty face. But as I got to know her I saw she was so much more. And I guess the more I talked about her the more my wife started to wonder how I felt about LO for real. Not just how I would tell her about LO.
I would say the last time I really remember being happy was our 19 year anniversary in 2018 when we got to get away in a suite for a whole three day celebration with no kids. Just the two of us. It’s been a hard few years since. Some ups here and there but it’s mostly been a low that I haven’t ever felt in our marriage.
With LO filling that void should have been the one thing I should have been more self aware than any other aspect. But yeah it was a nice feeling. But that’s being selfish and not fair to my wife’s feelings even if the absence of our own intimacy isn’t for me to blame entirely.
I will have to think on that one. The difficult thing is the way that women and men are in regards to intimacy. She doesn’t feel the desire for intimacy UNTIL this is resolved. And I don’t think I can resolve this with her WITHOUT intimacy. But maybe we can find a way that works for both of us. I am not trying to blame my wife entirely because of limerence but it is part of it. Because if we weren’t having issues I wouldn’t have been looking to another woman to give me what my wife wasn’t. Instead I should have brought just how badly the lack of intimacy was doing to me instead of trying to guard her feelings from getting hurt because well here we are in this mess of a situation.
Adam, your self awareness is amazing! Seriously, I know you donāt think you have a talent for mindfulness but you do.
I think Limmy reached this point once but I am beginning to wonder if the constant ruminations over limerence and reinforcement through others stories are starting to detract rather than add for me.
I enjoy everyone here so much and I feel invested in the stories but I find myself on here and other forums thinking about LO, LE, etc all day. I worry Iāll become addicted to sharing and constantly thinking about my LE in terms I can talk to others about instead of actively trying to move on.
Morning thoughts, that I just posted on the forums my morning thoughts were about. Cheers!
I’ve felt that a bit in the two weeks or so since I first posted here. It was very helpful to find out about limerence and what I am experiencing so that I can better understand it and myself. But at the same time, yeah, the sharing of stories about LO is addicting. Unlike others here LO is not around and so my memories and stories are all I have of her. Some days I feel it helps and other days I feel like I am posting here for my own benefit of remembering LO than I am trying to get over her. Which some days I don’t think I ever will, some days I don’t want to and still other days I have the strong will to get past this.
Adam, I have had hundreds of hours of therapy in the last 12 years. I think I mentioned earlier that I work with abused and neglected children, well the majority of that work is done at home because I adopted my foster children. They came with very big problems. We have done soooooo much therapy. Something I have learned is that therapy is like cleaning out a messy cabinet, it gets a lot messier while you drag everything out, but when you discard what isnāt serving you and you put everything back neatly, it feels so much better. I think you have barely begun to clean out your cabinet. I also suspect the drinking and limerence are distractions so you donāt have to think about your messy cabinet. It wonāt clean itself out. How long do you want to live with a messy cabinet? Keep in mind that the mess effects Mrs. Adam, too. I know you love her enough to do hard things for her. I would really love to hear that you and Mrs. Adam have started seeing a therapist. You two are good people and you deserve good things.
Marriage Helper is a good place to start.
I think we are at the point where we got past or are right at the difficult emotional impact of all this and now we have to address why it happened and I think we both know that is not going to be easy and we are just letting this sit in limbo. After going to the store with her and when we got home she made me dinner and we sat and watched a movie together before I went to sleep. She’s a bit of insomniac.
It was a nice time together. It’s like I would like to forget this ever happened and she would too. But that won’t help with the real reason that this happened. And then even if I get over LO and we get to a better place but leave this out to dry I am afraid that either I won’t get over LO or there will just be an LO2 and that’s not an outcome I want either.
I guess this cleaning isn’t going to easy but necessary. I looked at Marriage Helper’s site the first time you mentioned it. I will try to bring it up to my wife and see if she thinks it will help or if we can get through this together. If we seek outside help I want her to be on board with it too. If we both don’t want to get help than it’s not going to work for either of us.
You know Miss Lovisa, now that I think about it, the whole evening we had together I didn’t think about LO at all. But then when I woke up early at 4am this morning there go the intrusive thoughts right off the bat. My wife was asleep so I put on some headphones and music and tried my best but I kept thinking of LO. I wish I could be stronger to reprogram myself.
Adam, I love that you guys watched a movie last night and went shopping. You got some needs met, that is why LO left your thoughts. You and SO connected, awwwww.
Iām sorry to say this but the easiest and fastest way for a man to connect with his his spouse is through sex. It just is. We donāt make these rules, they just exist. That is why you crave it. Itās actually the emotional connection that you want and your instincts know what works. But there are other ways, too. Keep doing what youāre doing. You had a huge success last night. Letās celebrate! Woohoo! Cheers! (That was me celebrating, btw there is chocolate milk in my pretend cup, lol).
Also, Marriage Helper has free YouTube videos. They are great!
Rufio, I had that same worry for you. That is the reason I changed the subject. Remember? āJust keep swimmingā. I was concerned that you would subconsciously think you had to have struggles with limerence in order to be a part of this lovely group. We have something magical here and limerence brought us together, but I think we are genuinely invested in each other. We get each otherās attention and support when we are struggling and it would be unhealthy if we struggle just because we want the attention. I hope that makes sense. I would love to be your cheerleader when things are good, too, at least until you donāt need me anymore. Man, I hope this makes sense. The woman behind the internet name āLovisaā actually thinks about you all in her real life. Yesterday, I was washing the dishes and worried that I hurt Marciaās feelings because I havenāt seen her on here as much lately. I was also trying to think of times when my libido was low because it might be helpful to the situation with Adamās SO. Maybe I am unhealthily intertwined here, I donāt know. But I discovered that I care about the real people behind the internet names. I want to see you all thrive and I want to be a listening ear when you need it. If you need a break from LwL, I totally understand.
I really hope that makes sense.
Sorry to call you out like that, Marcia and Adam, I hope I didnāt offend either of you.
Lovisa,
It makes total sense and I truly appreciate everything you do and say here.
I have accepted my situation with LO as never being what I want but being better than it should be for a work situation. It doesnāt stop the little hurts or the ridiculous dialogue in my mind. It just doesnāt hurt as much. Living with an unexpressed love is bearable 90 % of the time and I know time will ease the feelings some. I also know now it truly is a form of love because I want her to be happy. I am happy when she shows me things for her wedding and gets so excited.
So perhaps it isnāt limerence so much anymore as a letting go. I almost feel like the real mourning is simply for me. Another wrong place wrong time encounter. I used this place to speak about it and it gave me comfort.
We will see where we go from here. Hang in there Adam. Lovisa, you rock. Keep helping people. Iām not leaving but perhaps Iāll try to finish this whole thing in a new light.
Thanks for the explanation. You rock too, Rufio! Iām cheering for you whether or not you pop up in the ārecent comments.ā
That unselfish love you feel is beautiful!
Lovisa,
” Yesterday, I was washing the dishes and worried that I hurt Marciaās feelings because I havenāt seen her on here as much lately. ”
You’re fine. My feelings weren’t hurt.
I hope I didn’t offend you, either.
Thanks Marcia, you didnāt offend me.
“Iām sorry to say this but the easiest and fastest way for a man to connect with his his spouse is through sex. It just is. We donāt make these rules, they just exist. That is why you crave it. Itās actually the emotional connection that you want and your instincts know what works.”
Yes it is what I want. But I want her to be there in the present and want to too not just for the sake of keeping me quiet. And because of LO I now know for sure that what I want I want from my wife. I didn’t even feel a temptation even when LO was single. I recognized that she was an attractive woman but nothing more than that. And then as I got to know her I found an emotional need being filled. And maybe that is/was just as dangerous as a physical need. But I do feel that there is still something between my wife and I and I just need to be patient with her and allow her the time she needs to say yay or nay to this continued relationship. In the meantime I will do what I can to repair the damage that I am responsible for.
And yeah it was nice time. And it did help me with the intrusive thoughts. So it was nice to have that off my mind.
I have to agree Rufio, Miss Lovisa is awesome. And thank you I will do the best I can for myself and my marriage. Good luck to you and your situation. I know all to well the feeling or unrequited love but also the love of someone that just wants to see them happy. And I am very glad after what LO and her daughters went through with her ex/their father that they found someone to love and care for them. If I can ever detach I wish them the best for the rest of their lives.
Adam, your SO needs to feel safe and desired. She also needs her stress levels to be low. And you are correct that pressure to perform will stress her out. Maybe just love and accept her.
And this bit of information is for young dads that might be lurking. Iām sorry, but when you have a toddler pawing at you all day, the last thing you want is a husband pawing at you at night. I donāt have a solution for this problem except maybe a babysitter? But if your wife is like me, good luck tearing her babies away from her.
Oh hereās a thought. I ALWAYS accept foot rubs and back rubs. Maybe your wife likes that, too. Just donāt expect anything in return. Itās a way for you to get close, but donāt expect sex because sheāll be suspicious if you initiate a foot rub again.
Some of those thoughts are for lurkers who have a wife with a low libido.
Yes, Lovisa has a great deal of compassion, and has given so much to this community. @Lovisa, thank you.
@rufio
Thinking about limerence rather than thinking about LO directly is a way of weaning off the compulsion to connect with LO. I know this, because I wrote here as an alternative to texting LO, and it worked extremely successfully. But at some point, because the truth is we all want to move on with our real lives and the real people in them (delightful and heart-warming though the compassion of strangers is), we have to let go of this virtual life boat too. For me, I want to be present with my SO. My children. I want to be a good friend to those who have stuck with me. I want to build a dream, a passion, do something with the rest of my life. Writing here helps me so much to ease the loneliness and confusion, and as Limerent Emeritus calls it disenfranchised grief, but you cannot lose sight of the long term goal. And at some point we may need to let go of this, too. It is part of the process of letting go of LO.
@ Adam
Your plight has been on my mind quite a bit. I have been thinking about your SO, actually, and what might be going on with her. I noticed that you have extreme guilt and have trouble forgiving yourself for this. Have you wondered about your wife’s own feelings of guilt. She could be both feeling bad about AND defensive of her bi polar condition, which, has caused you to suffer greatly. So you coming with limerence, she may feel both responsible for it partly, but also angry with you for falling into limerence. If I had caused my husband (who is a good man) to feel lack of intimacy in my relationship, and he started a PA, I would probably be able to be righteously angry. A PA is a deliberate choice (why I say this is because there are so many steps needed to get naked with someone in a secluded place, it takes a lot of brain power and is therefore a conscious decision). It might actually have been a bigger shock to her to be told this is limerence, rather than a PA. In a way, a little more threatening, because it is involuntary – she probably knows she can trust your will and intent, but what if you are in the throes of something you have no control over? As a wife, I would feel very unsafe and insecure. UNLESS my husband is of a strong will and assures me he will do everything in his power to not give in to the involuntary urges (and still, I would not feel fully safe till those urges go away). There is something extremely powerful of the security that comes from involuntary urges – Marcia called it the desire to be “viscerally” wanted, and I think we call want that because it is SO SAFE – if someone is neurochemically bonded to you, the likelihood of them wandering off is low. So the fact that you have neurochemically bonded with someone else is making her feel scared, jealous, and also a little insulted (why her, not me?) But she also probably recognizes the part her illness play(which she is both feeling bad about, but also that it was involuntary for her, too, and she doesn’t feel she should be blamed for it) in contributing to creating such a void in you that you became susceptible to limerence, which is now causing you great suffering. It would have been waaaay easier to be mad with you for having a PA.
The truth is, no one is to “blame” for circumstance. Your wife’s bipolar, your limerence, those are circumstance, things you both have to face your guilt about AND forgive yourselves AND each other. Don’t make this monumental task even harder by wasting guilt on the parts you have no control over. She needs to recognize the part she played in all this, forgive herself for her mental illness (people tend to not, although they would never dream of feeling guilty about breaking a leg). You need to forgive yourself the limerence. (Basically for me, anything “involuntary” is not something to feel guilt about, but use guilt as a barometer to guide your “voluntary” and “conscious” choices.) THEN you can deal with the issues left over – your actions. If there are any to atone for, then do it. But rid your relationship of all UNECCESSARY guilt, it will distract you from reconnection.
Thank you all again. For being here to listen to me as I dealt with this hiccup. I realized belatedly that this news about my LO enlisting is a form of uncertainty – of death perhaps, and that might have triggered the limerence. I am humbly sure there may be other set backs (this is after all called living WITH limerence), but generally, the trend is good and I am going to try to get back on track here.
Godspeed to you all.
Wow, Limmy I am speechless. You are like Yoda with your wisdom. I second all that she just said.
Hey Guys, I really appreciate your kind words of encouragement. The timing couldnāt be better. I was offered a job today as a social worker. Hopefully my kids and SO are on board because I have been eager to re-enter to the workforce.
Okay, this is totally worth a last post.
CONGRATULATIONS, Lovisa.
I hope this a step toward greater fulfilment in your life, and a way to bring more of your great heart into the world.
Aww, thanks Limmy!
Thank you for such well thought out advice Limmy. I appreciate the effort you put into the consideration of my situation. It is a lot to think on and consider. And then to take action to try to get through this. I feel optimistic and hope that I can continue to be so.
The guilt is the hardest part but I will try to take your advice about letting go. I try to forgive myself but and do good for awhile and then here come the thoughts again. I try to occupy my mind with other things, but it is difficult but I will continue to make the effort.
Thank you again for your time and thoughtful words. I will take them to heart.
And congratulations Miss Lovisa. This sounds like a job that caters to your amazing skills to help people. I have no doubt wherever life takes you, helping people is something you just do naturally. I am very glad to have met both of you and everyone else in this community.
Thank you Adam. That makes me feel good.
Limmy,
“There is something extremely powerful of the security that comes from involuntary urges ā Marcia called it the desire to be āviscerallyā wanted, and I think we call want that because it is SO SAFE ā if someone is neurochemically bonded to you, the likelihood of them wandering off is low.”
What I meant was … visceral attraction is the spark that gets things off the ground. Dating or a relationship, that is. And the older you get, the less your ability to spark that.
It’s certainly not the most important thing in a relationship but it can be the initial thing. The catalyst, so to speak.
But I don’t know that it makes me feel safe. Desired, yes. But I’m certainly aware that someone I feel that way about may feel that way about a lot of other women.
Marcia, I had to google āvisceralā and I think I understand better now what you are talking about. True that the initial spark is visceral. True that us ladies spark attention less frequently as we age. True that it kinda stinks.
I think what is bothering you is that you are seeing married men pine after other women. You know that their wives donāt know, and you feel bad for their wives. And you donāt like the idea of your own lover pining after another woman. I wonder why that is so troubling for you. You also mentioned earlier that if your lover used pornography, it wouldnāt bother you.
My hang up is women who donāt have sex with their husbands. It really gets under my skin. I think itās cruel because how is he supposed to get his needs met? Is his libido supposed to disappear just because she lost hers? It actually makes me angry. I wonder why this is so triggering for me.
I guess we all have our own triggers. I would love to dig deeper into our triggers if youāre interested. Maybe we can learn from each other.
Lovisa,
“True that us ladies spark attention less frequently as we age. True that it kinda stinks.”
Well, it happens to everyone. I was just last night watching a biography on impossibly handsome French actor Alain Delon. He said women were obsessed with him from when he was 18 to about 50. Even he couldn’t hold on to it forever.
“I think what is bothering you is that you are seeing married men pine after other women. You know that their wives donāt know, and you feel bad for their wives. And you donāt like the idea of your own lover pining after another woman. ”
Yes, it bothers me. I don’t see why that’s strange. I would not want someone I’m with to be obsessively infatuated with someone else. And the fact that their wives don’t know seems like lying by omission. And that they are in some way pursing the limerence. The calls, the lunches, the texts, the emails, etc. I don’t think you necessarily can control how you feel, but you can remove yourself from the situation once you “feel the glimmer.”
“I wonder why that is so troubling for you. ”
I don’t understand why you don’t understand that. I’m not talking about basic attraction to other people or finding others appealing. I’m talking about limerence. That’s something totally different.
“You also mentioned earlier that if your lover used pornography, it wouldnāt bother you.”
I’m not sure where I wrote that, but, no pornography doesn’t bother me unless it becomes excessive. I don’t think most men are pining over the women in porn. Porn is a means to an end.
“My hang up is women who donāt have sex with their husbands. It really gets under my skin. I think itās cruel because how is he supposed to get his needs met? ”
Idk. I know this is going to sound contradictory, but I think it would be challenging to stay sexually interested year after year after year.
Marcia,
I pondered this all night. I wonder if I donāt see the problem with a limerent SO because I am the limerent SO. Maybe I am making excuses to justify my bad behavior.
Also, I discovered that fantasies are an effective way to keep sex exciting for many years with the same partner.
Lovisa,
“I wonder if I donāt see the problem with a limerent SO because I am the limerent SO. Maybe I am making excuses to justify my bad behavior.”
Well, there could be the idea of redefining the relationship. But the SO, of course, has to be included in the decision-making process. It can’t be unilaterally decided by the limerent without the SO’s knowledge. Maybe the SO is ok with the limerent having a friendship with the LO. Or texting or calling … or having lunch. I’m not sure what that would look like. It would depend on the couple.
“Also, I discovered that fantasies are an effective way to keep sex exciting for many years with the same partner.”
Do you enact these fantasies with your partner or are they running in your head quietly? š I mean, most of my fantasies involve getting my hands on specific people. I can’t see how I’d incorporate those fantasies into sex with a long-term partner.
Marcia,
My SO and I talked about boundaries with opposite gender friends. Texting, talking, and even visiting are fine. One greeting hug and one goodbye hug is fine. I tell my husband in advance if I visit a male friend and he can say no. My husband is comfortable with most of them, but LO3 gives him pause because LO3 is very fit.
As for the fantasies, they quietly run in my head while Iām with SO. Also worth noting is that you know how women desire sex more if they feel desired? Oftentimes, just talking to my male friends increases my libido, even the ones Iām not attracted to.
You mentioned depression. Iāve been there. It is awful. How can I help?
When my step-mom learned about my passion for running, she asked, āWhat are you running from?ā I replied, āDepression.ā She knowingly nodded and we had a good chat. I love my step-mom.
Lovisa,
” My husband is comfortable with most of them, but LO3 gives him pause because LO3 is very fit.”
Ah, so he’s uncomfortable because he’s a hunk? š Does your husband know how you feel about this guy? When you call him LO3, have there been 3 in your life or 3 during your marriage? A lot of posters puts numbers after their “LO.” I guess I just think of mine as “LO.” The most recent one. Who is 90% or so faded, and I hope he stays there. Like the other LOs before him. Faded away and in the past. Where I want them to be. Stay away. Stay away from my subconscious. š
“Also worth noting is that you know how women desire sex more if they feel desired? ”
Yes. It’s the most common female sexual fantasy there is. Being ravished.
“Oftentimes, just talking to my male friends increases my libido, even the ones Iām not attracted to.”
Hmmmm …. I definitely enjoyed interacting with male friends. There was a bit of flirtatious energy. But I don’t know that it riled me up.
“You mentioned depression. Iāve been there. It is awful. How can I help?”
That’s sweet of you to ask. From what I’ve learned, there’s nothing really anyone can do. Other than be supportive, which a lot of people are not terribly good at. Most people don’t want to discuss it.
“When my step-mom learned about my passion for running, she asked, āWhat are you running from?ā I replied, āDepression.ā She knowingly nodded and we had a good chat. I love my step-mom.”
Ah, an astute woman. š Maybe it is running from something. I hadn’t thought of it like that.
Good questions, Marcia.
Iāve had 3 problematic LOs during my marriage. At first, it was hard for me to decide who to include as I was numbering my LOs. I decided to only include the men who were a problem for me plus the one I transferred to. LO3 isnāt actually a problem, but transferring limerence from LO2, requires there to be an LO3. I hope that makes sense. I think the reason LO3 isnāt as problematic is because there is very little uncertainty. Whew! And yes, LO3 is very hunky. His body isnāt what attracted me to him, it is just a very nice bonus. Very, very, very nice bonus. So very nice.
My husband doesnāt know that I am attracted to LO3. I think disclosing my attraction for LO1 to my husband was a mistake, so I donāt intend to disclose that again.
I think back to my depression and wonder if anyone could have done anything to pull me out of it. I donāt know if they could. But there were moments when someone did just enough to keep me going, like a little boost. It was LO2 who pulled me out of it, but of course he didnāt know that his attention had such a powerful impact on me. He woke me up. I guess limerence can be beneficial. Also, going outside and eye contact helped me during my darkest times. It was so awful. I wish I could help anyone who is stuck in that horrible place.
Lovisa,
“My husband doesnāt know that I am attracted to LO3.”
Well, he may sense something as you wrote LO3 gives him pause.
” I think disclosing my attraction for LO1 to my husband was a mistake, so I donāt intend to disclose that again.”
What did you say to him? I don’t think of limerence as just an attraction. More like an obsession. I don’t think I’d want to know every little attraction my SO was having. I know there are couples who point out and discuss attractive people with each other. I wouldn’t want to do that. Leave me the illusion at least some of the time that I’m the only one. š But limerence? Idk. We’re getting into a grey zone here.
“It was LO2 who pulled me out of it, but of course he didnāt know that his attention had such a powerful impact on me. He woke me up.”
Ah, yes. I have been pushed out of dark places by limerence. In retrospect, I think that was a bad thing, actually. Once I realized nothing was really going to happen with my last LO, the boost from the limerence was a false one.
Marcia,
ā Well, he may sense something as you wrote LO3 gives him pause.ā
You are right. I want to address this with you. Thanks for bringing it up. My husband and I talked about LO3 a few nights ago and he said, āI donāt know why LO3 makes me feel so insecure. I am sorry.ā I said, āIt makes sense because I talk to him a lot.ā My husband feels like his insecurities are causing a problem for me and he is sorry about it. There is truth to that, but I am contributing to this problem far more than he is. I just donāt think I should tell him that I have āfeelingsā for LO3 because it will be another source of pain for him and another man who canāt be in our lives. (I have no contact with LO1 since disclosing to SO).
When I disclosed about LO1, I used the term EA and I told my husband about some specific moments with LO1 including that LO1 asked me to leave my SO. My husband said, āI thought he was my friend.ā He was hurt by both my behavior and LO1ās behavior. I hate that I put my SO through this garbage. Grrr I am so mad at myself right now.
Marcia, I think Iām using limerence as a mood regulator and I am really afraid to let go. Depression was awful. I fear it. I donāt see another way to be happy without limerence. I also fear that I am hurting other people. I tell myself that as long as I maintain good boundaries, it doesnāt matter what is happening in my head. I think there is truth to that, but there is still leakage that I canāt control.
Thanks for helping with this.
Lovisa,
So you and your SO are friends with LO3? You all hang out together?
“I think Iām using limerence as a mood regulator and I am really afraid to let go. Depression was awful. I fear it. I donāt see another way to be happy without limerence. ”
I won’t lie. After I started to be honest with myself that nothing would happen with my LO (and I so very much wanted it to), the depression came back. I didn’t know what to with myself. And I haven’t found something that totally replaces it.
That being said, I don’t want to become limerent again. I don’t want to do that to myself again. I actually fear limerence more than depression.
Marcia, Thanks for being honest that the depression came back after the limerence settled down. I am sorry you are going through that. I wish I had solutions. Interesting that limerence is scarier than depression for you and it is the opposite for me.
To answer your question, LO3 is a friend to me and an acquaintance to my husband. No, we donāt hang out. In fact I rarely see LO3 in person.
Lovisa,
“Thanks for being honest that the depression came back after the limerence settled down. ”
Well, it didn’t settle down. I mean, it has now, after NC, but that’s not why the depression resurfaced. What happened was he shot me down … for having an affair. So I didn’t know what to do after that … that’s what I really wanted, so what do I do now?
” Interesting that limerence is scarier than depression for you and it is the opposite for me.”
Well, I want to be present in my own life (I think limerence is a lot of time in one’s head) and I want people in my life with whom I’m having fully realized relationships. Not someone on the periphery who will never really be a part of my life. And I don’t want to be spend so much time and energy on someone who isn’t a part of my life. I highly doubt he was focusing that much on me.
So, yes, I’d rather be depressed than putting all my energy into the wrong place.
Marcia, I like how you are focusing on being present with real people in your life. I will be pondering this for myself.
I am very curious about your story. Please only share if you are comfortable.
ā What happened was he shot me down ā¦ for having an affair. So I didnāt know what to do after that ā¦ thatās what I really wantedā
Who shot you down?
Who was the affair with?
What did you really want?
āso what do I do now?ā
I think you are in a good place to figure out what you do now.
Lovisa,
“Who shot you down? Who was the affair with?”
I’m kind of surprised at your questions. Isn’t this site about limerence? š My LO, to both .
“What did you really want?”
A big sexy affair with my LO.
“I think you are in a good place to figure out what you do now.”
What I meant was … nothing has replaced the limerent high, the single-minded focus to “get with” my LO. But I’d still rather be where I am now. No more fixations on married people.
Marcia, oh that stinks. I get it now. That just stinks. Iām glad you are finished with that. You might be in a good position to help the new commenter. I think she goes by Free Fall. Please check out her post. She is in a lot of pain.
Miss Lovisa I know I promised to discuss this sober, which I am not, but I read your and Miss Marciaās conversation and Iād like to reiterate the contrasting difference in men and women when it comes to physical intimacy.
Men desire physical intimacy for an emotional connection with their lady. Women need an emotional connection to express physical intimacy. In society one is favored over the other socially. But both parties are seeking the same endgame.
But it seems a woman denying a man that physical intimacy isn’t viewed the same as a man being emotionally unavailable.
The common factor is when it comes to infidelity, crushes, limerence men cheat whether it be emotional or physically out of lack of physical intimacy because thats how men emotionally connect. Whereas most women are most likely to have an emotional affair because their man isn’t fulfilling their emotional needs for them to have a desire to fulfill their need for physical intimacy. In the end infidelity in both genders is a desire to fill the same void its just the route in which they do it is different.
Thatās why limerence is common in both genders because the root cause is identical. The road to it is just different.
Ladies have a good night. Miss Lovisa Iām sorry I feel victim to my weakness. Iām sure Iāll get to talk to you sober tomorrow.
Adam,
“Women need an emotional connection to express physical intimacy. ”
Actually, that’s not true, at least for me. I need to feel desire to want to have sex. And it does die down in relationship over time. And, frankly, once you’re experienced limerence, your idea of what desire is gets warped. Your feelings are so heightened. It’s not realistic to expect all the time.
To me, sex and emotional closeness are two different things. You can be really close to someone and not necessarily dying to have sex with them.
Adam,
This one’s for you.
“Lonely in Love” – Dan Fogelberg (1987)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOQvyn2EFts
In the album liner notes, Fogelberg said he wrote this shortly after getting married. He said it was a strange song for a newlywed to write.
As I remember, this came out about 3 months after I broke up with LO #2 but still held out hope we could reconcile.
1987 was a miserable year. I met my wife in February 1988.
1988 was much better.
Wow, that was very helpful, Adam. No problem that you fell victim to your weakness. Thanks for being honest about it.
I donāt understand why men have emotional affairs. If sex is how he gets his intimate needs met, why would a man engage in an emotional affair?
Wait! Maybe I get it. Is he āplaying the long game?ā Do men provide emotional intimacy to a woman for the purpose of getting sex or at least that is what they hope will happen? Perhaps women have physical affairs because they think sex is necessary to keep the manās attention. Maybe?
Adam, this is helpful. I am so curious why my LO3 is showering me with attention. If he isnāt getting needs met through our conversations, why is he engaging me so frequently?
Miss Marcia
If she is just bored of me than why not just tell me? I would much rather hear the truth talk about where the relationship will go on if it will go on sexless. If the absence of it is effecting me so bad I fall for another woman like this, it’s just gonna happen again and again. Not the kind of life I want.
LE
Thank you for that. I can definitely relate to the lyrics of that song, and music is nice. I know some Dan Fogelburg but I have not heard this song before.
This one has been getting to me. But I still keep listening to it. I didn’t know the artist or the song when it came up in my youtube suggestions. Like I was meant to hear this song.
Tell Me — Hunter Hayes
https://youtu.be/hzRjo5y6lgQ
Miss Lovisa
As I tried to fall asleep last night I was wondering your response. In that, I thought of something about me and my past. And when you talked about needs in this comment I just know that this is important. Every woman I have been involved with, from the first crush I had (my best friend’s sister; yeah i didn’t tell him lol) all the way up to LO has had one thing in common; I thought they needed to be rescued from something.
Best friend’s sister: attracted fuckboys
first girl: self image issues due to eczema
2nd girl: came out of abusive relationship
3rd girl: abandoned after he found out she was pregnant
1st girl online: childhood trauma
2nd girl online: self image issues due to weight
my wife: rape survivor
LO: pos toxic ex still f’ing around in her life
I was thinking about that last night and noticing an obvious pattern. And when I really got to thinking about why I have some much sadness and emptiness it came to me that LO doesn’t need me anymore. She accepted my help and thanked me for it before she met her gentleman friend. But now that she has him she doesn’t need me.
Adam, all men love to feel needed. You are not alone. I wonder if your desire to rescue a woman is deeply rooted inā¦ just a guessā¦ your mother needed rescuing?
Can you channel that desire to be a hero and use it to rescue your SO from whatever troubles her?
You are making great progress! I feel like you are figuring out what was at the core of your limerence.
Along the lines of what might be happening with a womanās thoughts in a sexless marriage, I had a conversation yesterday with my LO2ās best friend. LO2ās 30ish years of marriage have been pretty much sexless. I feel so bad for him because he did everything right by our cultureās standards, including waiting to have sex until marriage. I donāt think he even knows what sex is like with a partner who wants it. Grrrrr, that just grates on me. Yesterday, LO2ās friend told me that SO of LO2 feels threatened by me. Nuts! I didnāt mean to threaten anyone. But this tells me that even though she isnāt interested in sex, she is interested in keeping her marriage in tact. Your wife might still want the marriage even though her libido is low right now. I canāt even guess what is happening in your wifeās thoughts because itās just not anything I have been through personally.
“I wonder if your desire to rescue a woman is deeply rooted inā¦ just a guessā¦ your mother needed rescuing?”
Not that I would say. While I found this out as an adult (from my sister) that our mother did struggle with depression. Something I never knew because I wasn’t perceptive enough or mother did good hiding it. But other than that mother was always there for us. She never worked until my senior year of high school. My father provided for us alone while we were growing up.
“Can you channel that desire to be a hero and use it to rescue your SO from whatever troubles her?”
If she will let me, I am trying. I feel like in that aspect of the marriage, like your friend you mentioned, she is okay with it the way it is but still expects me to be here in the marriage and loyal. And that’s ….. well Miss Lovisa I dunno if I can go on another 29 years like this even if every other aspect of the marriage is happy. And I DON’T want to go outside the marriage. But that doesn’t mean at some point I wouldn’t. Which of course that than means not only do I have to accept this as is I have to push down resentment that will eventually make things worse. But I will continue to try and make the effort to repair this.
I don’t either. Because the few times I bring up anything about intimacy it always comes back to LO. Its as if years of prior problems before meeting LO with intimacy she wasn’t to place at LO’s feet, who has done nothing intentionally to start the limerence or anything inappropriate of a co-worker. And then that of course frustrates me and makes me more resentful.
But I am going to try and do the right thing and stand behind my vows.
Deep breaths. Thatās hard, Adam. I donāt think I would last long in a sexless marriage.
Can I ask you something? If your wife had a high libido and you guys had a lot of sex, would it bother you to learn that she uses fantasies to keep her libido high?
Your relentless, patronising, self-satisfied, smug, overbearing, intrusive, and smothering observations, currently evidenced throughout this website are perhaps distracting some people from the true nature of the generous expertise and the valuable advice so freely offered by the siteās author.
I have no doubt that you mean well and your contributions seem to be appreciated by some distressed participants. If it helps them, thatās a good thing, I suppose.
Adam,
The issues in your marriage and why you’re attracted to who you are may be related but are distinct problems.
Doing the work to determine the first can be be hard and take you places you’d never thought you’d go. It has the potential to redefine, or possibly even destroy, long standing relationships.
Only you can decide what’s important to you. When my wife and I were having problems, she flat out asked me, “Do you want to stay married to me?”
My response to her was, “I don’t know.” I told her I didn’t think I’d be happier anyplace else or with anyone else. I told her if there was someone else at least I’d be running to somewhere as opposed to just running away. That was true. I didn’t say anything about LOs.
If my marriage ended, I don’t know if I’d turn to LO #4. At the time, I thought I might but now, I don’t think I would. Too much time has passed. We left some things on the table and, when I go off the rails, I usually don’t go back over that stretch of track.
But, we’re where we are because of the decisions we made, some by me and some by my wife. It came down to this.
I know that my wife is the best thing that ever happened to me. She was the first person to ever sacrifice something to be with me. When she had to make a decision that would bring us together or drive us apart, she chose the one to keep us together. At one point, it looked pretty grim. When I was diagnosed with cancer, she was with me all the way and still is.
Yeah, there are a few areas in our marriage that can use some serious tweaking but you don’t give up on someone like that. I know how hard it was to find one woman like that. I don’t know that I’d ever find another.
On the other hand, sometimes you say, “Enough” and leave in the hope of a better tomorrow. Or, you go outside your marriage. Everybody has to make that call for themselves.
LOs are catalysts. Sometimes they can be a catalyst for good and sometimes they merely provide us the opportunity to wreak havoc upon ourselves.
Great song, by the way!
L.E.
I think that is where we, or at least I am at. I think the thing is that keeps me living with it for the last 3-4 years is even if we did end our marriage, I could never actually leave. Her bipolar and anxiety are too extreme for her to make it on her own. And only her father and step mother live somewhat close. Because I would never abandon her. We were friends before lovers.
That and like you said, if you and your wife did split there isn’t anyone you run to. I feel the same. I don’t think I would want another woman, even if we did end our marriage and she was okay with it. Because even if we aren’t spouses I wouldn’t want to ruin being friends if me being with another woman bothered her.
So I feel like I am just going to stay in this limbo out of fear of making the situation even worse than it is now by rocking the boat. I watched my father’s parents from the time I was six until they each died, just live in one house but two separate lives. It feels like that now.
But I did want to ask one question from your post. Which by the way thank you for the well thought out words. They are making me think. Anyway you said that LOs are catalysts. Do you mean in that they are what hit you making you realize what all the problems in your relationship that you weren’t addressing are?
Thanks, that particular song is painfully relatable. I find that I have been spending a lot of time listening to music and playing some video games with my son a lot. It sure beats intrusive thoughts. And it helps me to keep from reaching for the bottle all the time.
Adam,
“Do you mean in that they are what hit you making you realize what all the problems in your relationship that you werenāt addressing are?”
To answer would require you reading nearly every post I’ve made on LwL going back years.
The semi-short answer was LO #2 activated some early childhood abandonment issues surrounding my mother. I carried that baggage straight into my marriage. My wife thought that I’d never gotten over LO #2 and I had issues surrounding my father’s and grandfather’s suicides. She was right about that but the reason I couldn’t understand my relationship with LO #2 and get past it was because I didn’t understand my relationship with my mother. I spent several months connecting those dots.
Considering the list of influential women in your past, there’s something there that might be worth looking into. But, you’d need to get the right help. Finding good help is another subject in itself.
Working with a therapist and a marriage counselor solved some of that. I understood how I got there but I didn’t finish the job.
My LE with LO #4 can be summarized here: https://livingwithlimerence.com/barriers-and-uncertainty/#comment-3739
What the LE with LO #4 told me was that there was some work I still needed to do. A woman got into my head after 25 years of marriage and knocked me off the rails. And, she wasn’t trying. When I disclosed to her, she said that she had no clue. I needed to figure out how that happened. I understood how I got there but the job wasn’t finished.
So, going back to my EAP counselor for the second time, we dived into that. We didn’t go back 25 years to LO #2, we went back over 50 years to my mother. Since the principles in my saga are either dead or I haven’t spoken to in decades, we confronted them vicariously. I wrote letters to people and the EAP counselor role played the recipients. I could confront these people with impunity because I wasn’t going to impact any existing relationships and I felt it could only improve my life and my marriage. Dead people don’t talk back and I didn’t need to confront LO #2 and LO #4 to get it out of my system. The EAP counselor was that good.
It was work that needed to be done. I didn’t put to rest one ghost, I put to rest 4 ghosts. LO #4 was the catalyst for that.
Did any of that help?
“If your wife had a high libido and you guys had a lot of sex, would it bother you to learn that she uses fantasies to keep her libido high?”
That off and on has pretty much been our sex life since she was diagnosed. When she is a mania she is nymphomaniac almost and is relentless. Or it’s like this when she is a low. It’s one extreme or the other and honestly both get to be too much. Her last mania last almost a year.
But no that wouldn’t bother me. And I hope she will always feel comfortable to share something like that with me without fear of being chastised or shamed.
Thanks for answering my question, Adam.
Iām not sure if the new commenter is talking to you or me, but I donāt think either of us deserved the attack.
Adam,
“That off and on has pretty much been our sex life since she was diagnosed. When she is a mania she is nymphomaniac almost and is relentless. Or itās like this when she is a low. Itās one extreme or the other and honestly both get to be too much. Her last mania last almost a year.”
So it doesn’t sound like your relationship is sexless. But sexless for periods of time ? How long do the periods of mania last versus the periods of depression?
I don’t know anything about mania, but I’ve had periods of depression, and the last thing you think about is sex. It’s not on your radar screen.
But, no, it’s not uncommon for desire to diminish in long-term relationships. Whether that’s an issue for your wife, I can’t say.
L.E.
Thank you for the link to that comment. That is exactly what happened for me. When I first met LO she was just a nice lady to work with. Never thought more than that. And then after a month or so of working with her I met her daughter. Then she, shortly after, confided in me one time about her ex. And then 3 months more passed of this talking to me and BAM I got hit with it. And now I was seeing her in a completely different light.
I have never paid a woman in 23 years of marriage more than a single passing glance but LO got to me and that is why. She trusted me with things about her and she asked me for help when she needed it. And she is a very independent and capable woman. A hard worker and single loving mother and she was asking ME for help and confiding in ME.
Wow L.E. you nailed it. Now I got to figure out why I let LO get in my head like that. Because she wasn’t doing it for any other reason than to have someone to listen to her. Maybe no one would and she did to me. Maybe she had a reason to think she could confide in me. I dunno but I got the distinct feeling she was doing it for her having no clue what it was doing to me. Going right to my head.
I got some thinking and figuring out to do. So to answer your question, yes, that helped. Helped a lot. Thank you again
Miss Marcia
Typically manias are short, mostly lasting days maybe weeks. Since she was diagnosed in 2009, after checking herself into a clinic, she has had two manias that lasted around a year. Lows are usually much longer. As I commented before the last really great time we had together was our anniversary in 2018. Then shortly after 2019 started she fell into a low that she has pretty much, with a couple of short lived manias that lasted a day or two, stayed in. I wouldn’t need all five of my fingers to count the sexual encounters we’ve had since 2019. I dunno if that is what is considered a sexless marriage or not. But that is the gist of it as of now.
If that is the issue though I guess it is best to confront it and ask her. I would hope she would give me the truth of it even if she thinks it will hurt me. Because this, what we have now, isn’t hurting any less.
Adam,
If DrL ever gets off his bupkiss and organizes the LwL meetup, we can have a drink.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/los-who-wont-let-go/#comment-7466
We’ll flip a coin to see who buys the first round.
That would be awesome to do. Better bring a DD or take a cab when I starting drinking lol
“The therapist said that kind of misplaced loyalty can be a vulnerability and was what got me into the EA. Loyalty to an attractive, intelligent, charming redhead with a delightfully snarky sense of humor whoās not my wife was not a smart move. It was good attribute applied in an inappropriate circumstance.”
Wow its like this was written exactly for me. Even down the the “redhead”. Especially the good attribute in the wrong circumstance. Between the pos ex, being single, and then being unsure of dating again, she was always in a bad place and I listened. When she was sure her gentleman friend was good for her those talks for the most part ended. She didn’t have that need for me and I swear that just made the limerence worse. It was like coming off an addiction. (Something I’ve done before more than once.) Jesus this is like so relatable. Now I got to figure how to get her out of my head and get on with my life.
I am also going to check out the link in that comment because I have always felt that, at least when it comes to women, I am co-dependent. And maybe why even unhappy with the marriage as it is now, I don’t have the courage to address it because I am afraid she will leave. And I don’t want to be alone. I don’t like myself alone.
I read this in the actual post by Dr L
” They donāt want them to feel the shock of rejection. Most likely, they themselves know what it feels like to finally build up the courage to admit their feelings for someone, only to have it be unrequited.”
If this is why, or least part of or one of the reasons she left, then she might have known there was something else going on with me. Which means I disrupted her life with my limerence. I do know she did want to change jobs and that she was stressed where she was. But I wonder if the speed and way she went about leaving had anything to do with it? She did seem different that last day I was with her. She was still her usual sweet, funny, kind self but something did seem off with her but I still can’t put my finger on it yet.
Adam,
“Johnny Walker’s only 8 years old but he makes a lot of sense” is a cliche, not a mantra.
You have a kid. You say that your wife’s bipolar and has anxiety. That leaves you as the likely primary care giver.
Kids aren’t stupid. They’re sponges. The family dynamics you and your wife teach them set the template for all their future relationships. If the adults in their lives are non-functional, there’s a good chance they’ll grow up the same way. Mom is a basket case and Dad drinks to cope isn’t the lesson you probably want to teach them.
My parents didn’t stay married for my sake. My Dad left my mother and he took me with him. My mother should have been in jail for DV. Looking back, I’m surprised he didn’t kill her in self-defense. For a man to get custody of a child in the 60s was unheard of. My mother was unemployed and didn’t drive a car. The public line was my father could take better care of me than she could. That was true. But, considering the rumors surrounding my mother, I think my father had something on her and he used it.
I was raised by alcoholics and I married one. My wife’s drinking almost destroyed our marriage. She got sober. It took a $600 Visa bill charge to the best divorce shark in town and a threat to take away her kids and grant her supervised visitation to get her to take things seriously. A decade later, we’re seeing some of the effects that had on our kids. That kind of environment can make chatting up a redhead who thinks you have something to say pretty appealing. Not smart, but appealing.
I hope things work out for you. You seem to have an understanding of things. Keep digging. I recommend you look for a professional to help you. There’s a reason that airlines tell you to put your own oxygen mask on first.
LwL is a great place but it’s not professional help.
Adam,
“Then shortly after 2019 started she fell into a low that she has pretty much, with a couple of short lived manias that lasted a day or two, stayed in. I wouldnāt need all five of my fingers to count the sexual encounters weāve had since 2019. I dunno if that is what is considered a sexless marriage or not. But that is the gist of it as of now.”
Yes, that is definitely a sexless marriage. Does she seem depressed and down? Is she in therapy? Is she on medication? Because if she’s not willing to get some help, I don’t think things will improve. I’m sorry to say that to you. Aside from the sexual issue, do you enjoy each other and have fun together sometimes? I’m tying to gauge how bad the depression is.
“If that is the issue though I guess it is best to confront it and ask her. I would hope she would give me the truth of it even if she thinks it will hurt me. Because this, what we have now, isnāt hurting any less.”
You haven’t asked ? After four years like this? (Maybe you wrote you did ask in another post. I didn’t read all of them.)
“An extraordinary number of males who’ve grown up without fathers or in homes where the father was ill, abusive or just emotionally/physically unavailable, have developed powerful inclinations to fix/rescue females.”
Wow this sentence is just screaming at me. And this entire link I’ve been reading is really making me face who I am and how I got to be that. For me it was an emotionally unavailable father. He cared for our needs physically but I never felt I could express my emotions. And so according to writer of the article I than associated shame with expressing certain emotions.
So instead of address my own emotions, be they negative or not, I invest in others emotions which manifests in my wanting solve/fix every woman I get close to’s problems/emotions. And I do indeed do that.
Even with my wife. I spent the first 10 years of our marriage feeling guilt for sexual desires and feelings because my wife is a rape survivor. So instead of trusting her to trust me I shamed myself and kept quiet. Thankfully eventually when my wife found out my thinking she urged me to be expressive and trust her to know if something crossed a boundary for her. I thought being careful to trigger that terrible incident I was helping her fix the trauma. Thankfully we did get past that. I guess it is time to face this issue before it happens again.
Very thankful for the link to that comment L.E. I feel like I am actually understanding all this with LO and limerence. And why my fear of being alone is actually making my relationship difficult and why I latched on to LO. But how did I detach?
Adam,
“But how did I detach?”
If I was a betting man, my guess would be based on your posts, your LO found someone else and didn’t need you anymore. So, you cut her loose before she could cut you loose. At least, in your head, anyway. I’d also bet you’re pretty good at detaching. If you cut them loose before they cut you loose, you try to control the pain.
Earlier, you said, “I could never actually leave. Her bipolar and anxiety are too extreme for her to make it on her own. And only her father and step mother live somewhat close. Because I would never abandon her. We were friends before lovers.”
Schreiber also said, “This behavior is driven by a subconscious determination to maintain inequity within all our relationships, for the one who needs the least is always the one in power.” – https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
Put those two together.
Sorting this out is why you need a pro, a good pro. There’s a lot of stuff going on here and it’s hard to stay focused.
Yeah I read that whole article and that was the most perplexing thing I read. I can get what she is saying but I genuinely do care about her even despite some psychological subconscious ulterior motive.
But yes that whole article was interesting and gave me a lot of perspective on what drives me.
I always knew I was a people pleaser, I have people tell me that a lot. “Just say no” as if it is that easy. But now I know why. I know why I run myself into the ground, complain about it in my head, but then keep going and going for everyone.
And I do appreciate the time everyone involved has taken with me for someone ya’ll just met. As far as professional help I will see what can be done about that.
Adam,
Does your employer have an Employee Assistance Program? Mine did and they had a full-time onsite counselor. But, I worked for a really good Federal Agency and I lucked into a really good counselor.
If you do decide to work with a pro, I recommend you interview them to see if they can help you. Therapists work for you. You pay them. In some respects, therapists are like plumbers. They vary in expertise. We confer expert status on them by default. We often only look for them in a crisis so we go with the first one who returns our call. If you don’t think one is a good fit, look for a different one.
And, as Schreiber points out, many therapists have their own biases and agendas, including financial. One of the nice things about working with an EAP is it’s usually free so the counselor can’t use you as a cash-cow.
Something else to consider…
Dr. Marion Solomon, in one of her articles, said that when many people enter therapy, they’re not seeking true change. They’re looking to become comfortable in their current pathology. When you add that to many therapists are far better at the latter than the former, it’s no surprise that therapy proves ineffective in the long term for a lot of people.
Therapy can be a great example of the “activity centered fallacy.”
“Companies introduce these programs under the false assumption that if they carry out enough of the ārightā improvement activities, actual performance improvements will inevitably materialize. At the heart of these programs, which we call āactivity centered,ā is a fundamentally flawed logic that confuses ends with means, processes with outcomes.” – https://hbr.org/1992/01/successful-change-programs-begin-with-results
Therapy can be a great example of this. The more focused you can be with a therapist, the better your chances of a good outcome.
It’s going to be hard but I think you can pull it off. You’re asking really good questions. That’s a big first step.
Miss Marcia
She does take medication and takes it as prescribed. She use to have therapy but she lost that state provided therapy because of changes in law. So she hasn’t had therapy these last 4-5 years. She does go to a general practitioner for her medications that she can get some help for that for as much as the doctor is educated on it.
As far as depressed, she doesn’t seem so much in general. But she’s become almost a complete shut-in and only leaves when she has to take our youngest boy to any doctor’s appointments she might need to because I can’t since I am at work. And yeah in most other aspects we get along just fine. We will watch a movie together or cook together.
Also I know I have mentioned this before here, but maybe before you started posting again; but the reason I disclosed to my wife about LO was because fall of 2021 my wife came to me asking/accusing me of having a PA with LO. So she was already suspicious of my relation to LO that I felt this might help her understand what was going on with me. But as I mentioned in my last post the whole issue with intimacy happened long before I first met LO in the spring of 2021.
I have not asked. This happened one time before, though it was only a bit over a year, and I asked her. Kinda funny now but not then, my brain had convinced me that my wife had a bisexual epiphany and was no longer not just interested in me but in men in general. Yeah my brain. I guess this time around I’m just like its the bipolar and saying anything won’t change anything.
Adam,
“But sheās become almost a complete shut-in ”
Was she always like this or has she become like this since the depression? And I’m not a big fan of a PCP prescribing meds for mental health. Can she go to a psychiatrist who’s been trained specifically in meds? She may need to be on something else.
I agree with Limerent Emeritus. You have to figure out a way to get her to therapy. I’d view that as as a non-negotiable with her. I thought when you mentioned she was depressed that maybe it had gone on for a few months, and I would have recommended to back off as pressuring her for sex would not help. But this has been going on for years. This is not a tenable situation.
“but the reason I disclosed to my wife about LO was because fall of 2021 my wife came to me asking/accusing me of having a PA with LO.”
And how did she respond? Did you tell her how the sexlessness of your marriage has made you feel?
Well I think it started with 2020 when I insisted to do all the errands due to the pandemic just got her in a mood of not having to leave the house and it just go more exasperated as time went on.
I dont ask anymore. I accept that this is how it is going to be. I dont want to ever make her feel guilty for me being selfish.
Not well. She accepted the neurological aspect of it but to her limerence is a EA and maybe it is. She said “well its just an EA even if its one sided” in response to me telling her that my limerence is nothing sexual or romantic.
L.E.
You give me even more to think on. I have never done therapy in my life. Well physical therapy but therapy of the mind. So if I can get this handled I don’t know what to expect at all. I’ll contact HR, I’ve know the gal that works there awhile and she can tell me if the company provides EAP therapy.
“many people enter therapy, theyāre not seeking true change. Theyāre looking to become comfortable in their current pathology”
But this is something I am concerned about honestly. And something I have to really be honest with myself before I seek any kind of therapy. And it is quite easy to just normalize your pathology to yourself to lessen the blow so to speak on how much change you are expecting yourself to do.
Adam,
This kind of work can be overwhelming but ultimately very rewarding.
Take your time and think it through.
I haven’t gone to therapy but I have definitely pulled the string on my LE recently. Had a couple of nasty break downs after work this week. It is quite dangerous to delve into the reasons I might be reaching out for this certain person. Coupled with the ever present devastation of knowing there is no conclusion to any of this that will truly make ME happy and somehow attempting to be ok with that. I can say all the right things here and to myself but like citizen cope said, “these feelings they won’t go away” until ya know, they do in the next few months.
I started writing to someone close to me though and just word vomiting how I feel about myself and life in general. Hopefully this helps.
Hey Rufio, itās good to hear from you. Iām sorry it has been rough. Hang in there, Buddy. Iām cheering for you.
Adam, I have been silently listening to the advice that Limerent Emeritus and Marcia have been sharing with you. I feel like they are being very helpful and I donāt want to interrupt. But I want you to know that I am still here, too. You are doing great at expressing yourself. So great! If you could keep up this momentum with a good therapist, you would make progress. Also, the symptoms you see in yourself (drinking and limerence) and the symptoms you see in your wife (bipolar) are not independent of each other. You two are in a dance and both of you effect the outcome. I think if either of you starts to heal, the other will follow.
Watching the back and forth youāve had with people in this group has been inspiring. Wow, I just marvel at this community. Who knew a handful of strangers would offer each other such sincere support?
Miss Lovisa you are back!!! I missed your kind words. Miss Marcia and LE have been telling me what I should hear. Not as sweet as your words but definitely something I need to hear. From the sweet to the not so candid I have gotten a lot of great help from yall and thats with no ulterior motive. I thank yall very much.
Aww, your greeting makes me feel so appreciated. Thank you, Adam. I was here the whole time, but that comment from Yodek hurt my feelings and made me question myself. I am too sensitive. I donāt want to be intrusive so I was hesitant to say anything. I donāt have hard feelings towards Yodek, there was truth in that comment.
Also, Limerent Emeritus had great momentum that I didnāt want to interrupt. Wow, I learned more of his story and I am so impressed with what he has endured and he is still able to be high functioning. Wow.
You are doing great, Adam. I am so impressed with your humility.
Lovisa,
“It should be noted, that if a nourishing symbiosis with Mother isn’t possible during infancy, and a far more attentive/loving attachment is forged with the father, an emotionally sound adult might eventually emerge. But if the father should leave through divorce, death or remarriage, the abandonment trauma this invokes will significantly impact all future relationships. Anxiety surrounding potential loss of another who might have substantial meaning and value, can exacerbate personality disorder features and inhibit or destroy healthy, gratifying adult connections.” – https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
That was me. LO #2 actually said to me,
“I don’t understand you. Both your parents were alcoholics and divorced when you were young. You were raised by a loving but emotionally distant grandmother. Your father and grandfather committed suicide and your mother died of an (apparently accidental) overdose of pills and alcohol. And, yet, you maintain this has had no effect on your development.”
My response was it had no discernable effects since that was my reality and I didn’t know anything different. It wasn’t like I was given choices and those were what I picked. I told LO #2:
“I played the hand that I was dealt.”
You can pay good cards poorly and you can play bad cards as well as you can. The EAP counselor said that I wasn’t a narcissist but I had very narcissistic defenses.
LO #2 told me that her greatest fear was to grow old and die alone. My response was that there was nobody that I couldn’t live without.
Two decades later, I told the therapist that I thought LO #2 never paid attention to what I said and didn’t take me. The therapist said that I was wrong. LO #2 paid a lot of attention to what I said and took me very seriously. I played into her insecurities. When I said that there was nobody that I couldn’t live without, looking at my history, she believed it. Unlike her parents who stayed together in a miserable marriage rife with infidelity, divorce was my parents choice du jour.
After we broke up, LO #2 said, “I can’t control you. You don’t need me. You were only with me because you wanted to be. There was nothing to bind you to me. I was afraid that one day you’d wake up and not want to be with me. If I gave myself to you and you left, I’d be devastated.”
The therapist said that was a confession. She said that LO #2 would never trust me and nothing I could have said or done would ever change that. It never dawned on me that LO #2 could have as many, or more, problems than I had.
But, she took me very seriously.
I made mistakes with LO #2 that I didn’t make with my wife. But, looking back, it makes my wife taking the chance on me all the more amazing.
Thanks Limerent Emeritus, the mystery unfolded a little more. When you said you were in a narcissistic/borderline relationship, I wondered which role you played. Now I assume you were the narcissist? That confuses me a bit. I donāt see how a narcissist would take interest in other peopleās problems. You appear to be genuinely invested in some of the commenters on LwL. How could you be a narcissist?
I wonder if narcissism is a defense mechanism. Two of my adopted children have Cluster B symptoms. I often ask myself, āHow did this happen? Did I cause it?ā Thinking about it sinks me into depression. I try not to think about it. In fact, I literally run from from it. I spontaneously ran a marathon over the weekend mostly out of curiosity, but I think avoiding my kidsā problems is at the core of my running. I would rather ponder running form and how to get faster than how the hell is my family going to heal from this mess? One of my kids committed a heinous crime and two of my kids were among the victims. Our therapist says it ranks on his list of the worst 5 things that parents can endure. Iād rather not say what crime my child committed. But i tell you this to show that I do have personal experience living with people who have cluster b traits and it isnāt pleasant.
Your childhood was awful! Amazing what a human being can survive.
Lovisa,
” How could you be a narcissist?”
Narcissism can be a defense mechanism. If there’s nobody that you think you can rely on, you rely on yourself. You become hypervigilant and learn to leverage every advantage you see. I was never a passive victim.
But, as a child, you can’t directly stand up to these people, so you avoid them as best you can. Passive-aggressive behavior and gaslighting become weapons in a guerilla war and survival mechanisms. It’s ok as long as you keep getting away with it but if they figure you out, you’re screwed.
When my mother was passed out, I thought nothing of taking money out of her purse or taking her gas money from under the seat of her motor scooter and walking up to the strip mall a few blocks away to buy something at the Woolworth’s lunch counter. I don’t think I could read at the time but the ladies there knew me and probably gave me freebies when I came up short. Everybody in the strip mall knew me.
When my father came home and asked how the day went, I’d tell him. He’d get livid.
When I think about it, there were probably more people looking out for me than I knew. They just weren’t the people who should have been looking out for me.
When I was working on this, the therapist said that I had narcissistic defenses but that I wasn’t a narcissist. I asked why she thought that.
She said, “Because you have a conscience and you knew when to quit.” My extreme self-reliance and “this is who I am, take it or leave it” were avoidant defensive props. And, they worked until they didn’t.
As a psychiatrist I met at a conference said, “Cluster Bs can be quite a handful.”
That’s putting it mildly. I had a diagnosed psychopath working for me in the Navy and my tax accountant said the marriage counselor called her ex a psychopath. He almost destroyed her financially.
One of the reasons I turned out as relatively well as I did was nothing was aimed directly at me. I may have been neglected but with the exception of my wicked step mother, I was never abused. And, while my father could take a lot of crap from his wife, he drew the line at taking things out on me. He had marginal judgment in the two women he married but he never normalized the behavior.
Good luck with your kids. We went through tough times with ours from the effects of anxiety and depression but we didn’t have to deal with any legal issues.
Lovisa,
Children are capable of very heinous things.
Have you read https://www.amazon.com/High-Risk-Children-Without-Conscience/dp/0553346679
My accountant gave it to me. From her research, she was terrified that psychopathy was genetic and her son would grow up to be like his father. He would be in his late thirties by now.
My wife and daughter are teachers. My wife is general education and my daughter is Special Ed. My daughter was assigned to work with an emotionally disturbed child who has made direct threats to kill his teachers and other students. My daughter says his parents are in denial. The school district doesn’t know what to do with him since his parents won’t cooperate.
After a 6yr old intentionally shot his teacher in VA, my daughter had a panic attack at the thought of being in the classroom with this kid. She’s terrified of being at work. She read the book.
Martha Stout’s https://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/0767915828 is also really good. If I remember correctly, she had a chapter on the children who were raised in Eastern European orphanages before the breakup of the Balkans. She didn’t use the term “soulless” but she kind of implied it.
Thanks for the resources, Limerent Emeritus. I will check them out.
At least one of my cluster b children was definitely abused. I met him at age 6 after he spent 4 years with his birth family and 2 years bouncing through the foster care system. Our life was a living hell until the police handcuffed him and took him away just days before his 15th birthday. Though he is in state custody, we are very much involved in his life. We do lots of therapy and my husband and I take him to do social stuff for fun.
Your description of your attitude as a child reminds me of my son. If you had been placed in a healthy environment at age 6, do you think your new parents could have done anything to help you feel safe with them?
There was a family in our support group who adopted two adolescent boys from an orphanage in Ukrain. Their struggles were far worse than ours. Big-hearted people get themselves into trouble when they adopt difficult kids. Having said that, I donāt regret any of my children. I love them all the same, but I like them differently.
Thanks again
Louisa,
When my father left, he took me with him. We moved in with his parents so they could take care of me while he worked. I was in second grade.
It was stable. My grandmother wore the pants in the family and raised me more as their 4th son vice a grandchild. There was a “good cop/bad cop” dynamic. I thought Gramps was my champion but he was using me as a pawn in his passive-aggressive guerrilla war with Grandma. It usually worked to my advantage but not always. On the plus side, I may not have known the term “passive-aggressive” but I knew what it was and how to use it. It was another weapon in the arsenal.
[It served me well in the Navy and LO #2. She could be a first-class passive-aggressive petulant. Sometimes, I’d let her get away with it, sometimes I wouldn’t.]
We moved out when my father remarried. I was in third grade. Neither of my parents wasted any time getting remarried and quickly divorced. My parents have a dismal 0-5 collective track record in marriages. We moved back when his second marriage ended. I think my stepmother could have been a Cluster B. I could have had 2 half siblings. She got pregnant and had stillborn twins. I think it pushed her over the edge. You can’t make this stuff up.
My mother kept up visitation for a few years then dropped out of sight. POOF! She was gone. The odd thing was that nobody was concerned that she was missing. That told me that somebody knew where she was.
She reappeared when I was in High School. She’d been in rehab and had gotten married and divorced again. Rehab didn’t take. I wasn’t happy about her returning. I resented her for it. I’m looking at starting my life and I’m going to be saddled with an aging alcoholic. She takes off on me and I’m expected to be there for her? She got so drunk on my 16th birthday that it took me and the restaurant manager under each arm to pour her into a cab. I wasn’t going to ever escape her.
When Mom OD’d on her mother’s couch, I didn’t feel remorse, I felt relief. For a long time, I thought it was the second nicest thing that she ever did for me. Relinquishing custody to my father was the nicest.
I told this story to a friend and her comment was that my life was really complicated. I asked “Is everybody’s?” She said, no, not like this.
Nobody’s life is clean. Nobody’s.
I’ve been posting this because there a a few posters contemplating taking a hard look at how they got to be where they are today. I hope posts give them an idea of what they might be in for.
Lovisa,
Another thing I wanted to add…
The EAP counselor said that one of the benefits of doing this kind of deep dive is that it can help somebody get past anger/resentment that keeps someone from moving on to acceptance. She said that many people feel guilty for being angry with authority figures in their lives, especially parents, but the anger/resentment is legitimate. You don’t want to get stuck there. You get validation.
Another thing the EAP counselor said was not everybody is willing to make direct confrontations with their past. They still have existing relationships with these people and they don’t want to potentially destroy them. But, you understand them and the decisions you make become informed decisions. In those situations, the help you get focuses on making the pathology acceptable vice addressing the root cause. It’s your life.
The last thing the EAP counselor said was that acceptance may or may not include forgiveness. It’s nice when it does but forgiveness is a choice. And, forgiveness means different things to different people.
Thanks Limerent Emeritus, you have given me some good stuff to think about. I looked into the books you suggested. They look interesting and they would probably be helpful, but I just canāt handle reading them right now. Iāve been through the psychopath checklist in regards to my son and it is scary how many items I can check off for him. And my daughter fits the description of a boarderline. They are very difficult to be around if youāre close to them, but they are very likable to strangers. I try not to get close. I need to survive raising them to adulthood and when I get close, the daughter sucks the life out of me and the son overwhelms me.
I think the limerence was a great distraction from the chaos that my children create. I got to a place where I became numb. When my daughter lit the microwave on fire in our hotel room, I genuinely wasnāt surprised and didnāt care. I thought, āWeāll itās a good thing we are financially stable. We can probably afford to pay for the damages.ā Most kids would have done something like that on accident. Two of mine would not only do it on purpose, they would plan it out and enjoy watching the results.
It’s been a hot moment since I have checked back in here so I want to do so and give an update. I got to spend some time with LO yesterday and talk with her a lot, and *she brought up* the topic of my disclosing attraction to her as she is still trying to understand it. In our discussion I was able to give her some insight of how things developed and how our texting sessions really fueled confusion in me about her feelings for me. She said she understood this. I also gained some insight into her actual feelings and it’s …well… complicated.
She admitted she very much looks up to me. She used the word idealize. She said I am (or now it might be ‘was’) the perfect boss, perfect husband, perfect father. And then she said something that I thought was curious, she said she never saw that I was attracted to her because “it could never be a reality”. For her the barrier of marriage very much shaped her perception of our personal interactions, but for me it did not. I saw them as possible mutual romantic attraction, she saw them as nothing but mutual friendship. I think the truth is maybe somewhere in between. I don’t know, it’s still confusing to me, but it’s of no matter, the barrier exists and she respects it and so should I.
So where does this leave me with LO. The positives are, my limerence has gone from crazy to mild since disclosing. I am still in LE but it’s not depressive or manic. The mania of texting is now gone. I am getting to understand her feelings and being able to accept them and remove uncertainty. The uncertainty was driving me crazy. The negative is me shattering her positive image of me and casting this burden on her and living with the guilt of it distressing her and trying to manage the fallout, which I can’t really. She feels on the edge of distress right now as she figures all this out and I am hoping with some time she pulls past it. Yesterday felt like a step forward in that direction as our talk was good and we had fun working together in a very friend type of way.
I’m focused now on just keeping a fun and healthy office friendship with her. I really would prefer she work for me for many years to come.
Speedy,
It sounds like you might pull it off as long as your LO behaves herself.
“For her the barrier of marriage very much shaped her perception of our personal interactions, but for me it did not. I saw them as possible mutual romantic attraction, she saw them as nothing but mutual friendship.”
Ideally, you both need boundaries. It’s dangerous for you to rely on hers. Trust me on this one. Something changes on her end and the boundary you relied on isn’t there anymore.
Then, you start scrambling. I got away with it because LO #4 was 2500 miles away. You’re not that lucky.
Then, again, you may never have to deal with it. But, the possibility is out there.
Speedwagon, thanks for the update. I agree with Limerent Emeritus, donāt rely on her boundaries. Set your own boundaries. Really lay them out for yourself.
I am willing to have āā- physical contact with LO only under āā- circumstances.
I will not āāā-.
If āāāā- happens, I will āāāāā.
Here is an example of my boundaries to get you thinking about yours.
Physical contact
I am okay with 1 greeting hug and 1 goodbye hug. I am also okay with normal contact like helping each other climb a boulder or a tap on the shoulder to get attention. That is all. But if I saw LO on a regular basis, I would cut out the hugs.
I will not participate in any sexual activity with anyone who isnāt my husband. Sexual activity is defined as any contact with external reproductive organs with or without clothing.
Those are just a few items from my list. I have a list of boundaries that I hope will keep me and my LO grounded. I know myself, if a boundary gets pushed too hard, I will cut LO out of my life. Knowing that I lose him if I donāt keep good boundaries, motivates me to be appropriate.
Good luck, Speedwagon. I feel sympathy for your LO. She has a lot to think about. Hopefully she proves to be a woman of integrity. I hope that in 10 years you both look back at this experience and feel proud of the way you handled it.
Yes, I for sure have set my own boundaries. I have never hugged her or really put my hands on her in any affectionate way, ever. I intend to keep this boundary. I do not want to personally text with her anymore as I just could not handle it and it leads down a dark path. I do not want to get into intimate talk with her about her marriage or mine. These are a few I know I have determined.
It will just take time for her to be out of her head on this. I think my disclosure opened up a bit of an existential crisis for her as she thinks about her own disappointing husband, her behavior with me the last number of months, and the sanctity of marriage in general and how relationship with other males fits into that. She just never realized or considered any of this. It will just take some time and hopefully she does not spiral downward.
You are right, Speedwagon, LO will be questioning things and she will be thinking about her own boundaries. She will probably test things out on you, but it sounds like you are ready for that. I like your boundaries, by the way, they will serve you well. If LO makes some mistakes along the way, it would be nice if you could be firm but patient with her. I think her intentions are good, sheās just going through a learning phase and sheāll probably overstep some boundaries as she learns where the lines are drawn.
Its a bad day. I want to address all of yaāll posts. But Im thinking about LO a lot. I miss her. I dont think I can do this.
Sitting with my head on mommas lap
while she sleeps. I love her. But I get thoughts of LO. Im a bad husband.
No Adam, you are not bad for having feelings. We have feelings and thoughts which make us neither good nor bad. Itās what you do with those thoughts and feelings that shows your character. What have you done? You were kind to a woman at work. You make efforts every day to take care of your wife and to be a committed husband. Your actions and your intentions are good.
I’ve circled back around to just being ready for this to be over. The up and down nature of my emotions just plays hell on me these days. I simply cannot accept what I am given if it is anything less than very warm. I try to self talk myself into understanding that I’m not her best fricking friend, I’m not her lover, sometimes people don’t want to talk. She doesn’t analyze every thing that comes out of her mouth in terms of how I might feel.
We had drinks again Friday night and had what I thought was a good time with great conversation, but unlike last time she did not return this week very warm in regards to me. We spoke but it was lack luster and she never mentioned having fun. She said she wished she had gotten to speak to our co-workers wife more and that she has a “friend crush” on her.
Imagine being a grown ass man and having that bother you. I understand, she wants to talk to her about being newly wed and things that go with that. It simply made me feel as though I’m not enough. Again, with the logic being completely swallowed by emotions.
I feel like I have teenage angst again. She didn’t mention any of the things we laughed at or discussed over the course of 3 hours. Now my brain is making me feel like I did something wrong. I’m really tired of feeling the need to try to get more from a situation that will not/cannot give it. It is so compulsive.
I am sorry as this is all a bit whiny but I had to vent today. It was all so frustrating and annoying. I was in a good mood and had it all wrecked by one 10 minute interaction. This is so stupid.
Hang in there. I understand that feeling. Makes you wonder if she gives a s**t at all or is she just indifferent to you. I hate it as well and it is so easy to go down the rabbit hole of trying to understand what she is thinking. What is tough is you can logically understand that if you had no romantic feelings for this woman it would not bother you in the least bit. It would be normal friendship. But the limerence screws everything up and the slightest slight sends you spiraling.
My LO was overly warm to me today. Big smiles, lots of eye contact, giggling at all my stupid little jokes. And she looked so gorgeous today as well. I love it and hate it at the same time. I love the feeling it gives me when she pays me that kind of attention but I hate the confusion it puts in my head. She said she has only felt friendship but damn, no one else looks at me like she does. Am I imagining all this? Maybe so.
Hang in there, Speedwagon. She is figuring stuff out for herself. Hold fast to your boundaries. You got this.
I know it is good and bad but those are the best days. I was truly expecting something like that yesterday. Now Iām just wondering if I did something or have lost status in her eyes somehow.
Rufio, that stinks. It would be frustrating. Your reaction makes sense. True that it is incredibly uncomfortable, but it makes sense. Maybe I shouldnāt have suggested that you enjoy her until she is gone. This doesnāt sound enjoyable at all. You are a smart man. Have you thought about using a different strategy to cope with your limerence?
I wish I could offer you comfort.
It isnāt your fault Lovisa! It is my complex. Iām just disappointed. It may be she was just tired as she said. As you know the thought of her thinking less of me is torture.
True, that is a big part of limerence. āWhat does LO think of me?ā And āI want LO to crave me as much as I crave LO.ā We all go through that.
Rufio
I can understand your feelings. And LO isn’t even around. It’s going on 8 months since she left and the time I had with her seems like yesterday. Yet in all that time she has only called me once. And that was back about 4 months ago. And I wonder sometimes what she thinks of me or if she does think of me at all. And that hurts me still even though, like you, I can logically understand that she has her own life to give attention to and not some lonely old man with issues.
I’ve maintained NC even though I can call her. I leave any contact she wants to make with me to her. I don’t want to disrupt her life and/or upset things between her and her gentleman friend. I certainty don’t want him to be resentful or suspicious of her. So I just try to manage. Some days are better than others. Today seems like it is not going to be a good one when she was on my mind already when my alarm went off this morning.
Adam, here is something to cheer you upā¦
Did you know that there are more airplanes in the ocean than submarines in the sky?
Update
LO2ās friend told me that LO2 is waiting out my marriage. He isnāt waiting out his own marriage. It sounds like his friend thinks he might jump ship regardless of what happens with me. I donāt think he would actually leave his wife. He is too loyal and too religious. His friend said that he hasnāt pursued me because he recognizes that my husband is good for me.
I have a question. LO2ās friend said that I am the person who cheers LO2 up. He specifically asked me to be flirty. I said that my flirtiness is what scared LO2 away. He disagreed and said that āflirty [Lovisa]ā is the only stimulus that LO2 has. He also said that āflirty [Lovisa]ā is addictive. I donāt know what to do with that information, but I think I must keep the flirty behavior to a minimum. What are your thoughts? (FYI, LO2 is the one who is trapped in a sexless marriage. I donāt have limerence for him, but I do care about him. Also, I recognize that this is childish. These men are successful engineers and leaders in our community. But, yes, I guess we are acting like teenagers.)
Well as a man in a similar situation that he is in, if LO was flirty with me it probably would have not panned out in a good way. Now don’t let me lie to you that I would have loved every minute of LO being flirty with me. It was bad enough that her kind and sweet disposition had me misreading her actions and reactions. When a lady gives you the attention you don’t get at home it is difficult not to take it personally and misread someone’s innoxious actions/reactions.
So personally I would go with your instinct to keep it to a minimum. It’s obvious he’s quite infatuated with you and enjoys your company. Any kind of attention you give I am sure he would appreciate even the kind just between friends. I know from experience even that kind is hard not to read too much into when your own long term relationship is struggling. I know it was that way with LO. She could say something so sweet and in “that voice” to me thanking me for bringing coffee or donuts in the morning before work and I would read too much into it.
Thanks Adam! You are right and I will keep the flirting to a minimum if at all.
Another short and distant interaction today. Iām considering asking her if we are ok or if I did something wrong Friday night. Is this a bad idea?
I canāt say if itās a bad idea because you will need to read the moment. You have good judgment and I think youāll know if itās a bad idea.
I think it’s perfectly within reason to ask her if everything is OK with her. Don’t make it about you though and wondering if she is mad at you, just tell her she seems a bit distant and you want to check in. She might appreciate that, or if it is about you it gives her a door to open up.
That is a good call Speed. I did not see her again today but if I run into her tomorrow I might ask it that way. I also thought it might be good to give her a little space as there is no telling what is going on. She has a lot going on her life with wedding, moving, etc. Being in the throws of a LE just makes me think it is about me after we had such a good Friday. Honestly, the thought of our friendship going cold right before she leaves is quite devastating so it has my anxiety on high alert.
Song of the Day: “The Reverend Mr. Black” – The Kingston Trio (1963)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y51VPrd5Js
All this talk about my mother brought this song up. The first LP I ever had was a Kingtson Trio album my mother got me for my birthday. I asked for The Beach Boys “Little Deuce Coup. Mom tended to buy me things she liked.
“I gotta walk that lonesome valley. I got to walk it by myself. Oh nobody else can walk it for me. I got to walk it by myself.”
Note: It never says someone can’t walk alongside you. It just says you have to do it. If you’re lucky, you’ll have someone.
Feeling a bit down today. Everything at office is better with LO. Her disposition has been good this week. She seems less in her head about everything. But, every now and again I get these waves of anger over it all…anger at my limerent mind, anger at LO, anger over the way it all went and over the future outlook. Today is one of those days. It’s just tough to push through and makes me wish I could just go full NC. But I don’t have that option.
Just venting!
I was having one of those days yesterday. Couldn’t concentrate on my work because of the intrusive thoughts. The day seemed to take forever to go by until I could get home. Drank too much and figured that was the only way I could get her out of my brain is if my brain wasn’t working properly. Fell asleep on the recliner and woke up to my alarm and right off the bat more intrusive thoughts.
And wished I would have had a choice in NC or not. But perhaps LO was making the decision for me for my own good if she ever did realize what was going on with me.
Adam, I donāt think LO knows how powerfully she effected you.
I hope not. I don’t want her to feel quilt or anything since she didn’t do anything wrong. I just played the fool.
Speedwagon, do you think this could be a withdrawal symptom? I mean limerence withdrawal because the highs are so intoxicating and the lows are so miserable. Maybe you are in a grey zone and your mind is trying to stir up a little drama.
I miss the euphoric highs but they are never worth the lows that follow. You called it, I am just in this grey state of being where I am more emotionally stable but also just numb about it all. There are just points where I feel more down or angry and today I felt more angry. I don’t like the angry emotion but it usually goes away after a day or so. I had to collaborate with LO today for about an hour in the office and it was really nice, but I just wish our relationship didn’t stop there, and unfortunately it does, and it bums me out that that is how she wants it. But at the same time, I know that is how it should be. Caught in tension.
Speedy,
Anger is one of the 5 Stages of Grief. Probably the most useful of every other stage but Acceptance. Directed correctly, Anger can be your best friend. Misdirected Anger can cause you a lot of grief. Plus, you don’t want to get stuck there.
There’s:
– Denial
– Bargaining
– Anger
– Depression
– Acceptance
They’re not linear and you can go back and forth between them. I seem to get past Denial and Bargaining fairly easily. I spent years going between Anger and Depression. The more I learned, the less time I spent in Depression and the more time I spent in Anger. With LO #2, it was mostly directed at her. With LO #4, it was more self-directed.
Acceptance is tenuous. It’s easy to slip out of at first. I’ve never heard of anybody who got there and stayed there the first time. When I slip out of acceptance now, I seem to always default back to Anger.
Over time, you spend more time in Acceptance and it takes more to knock you out of it. Eventually, you don’t like being in any other stage and you go back to Acceptance without really thinking about it.
This makes sense. I feel like I’m slipping between anger and depression right now with majority of time in depression. Hope I can glimpse a bit of acceptance in the near future.
Time to trot out DrL’s post on Disenfranchised Grief.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-loneliness-of-no-contact/
I think another poster actually was the first person to mention Disenfranchised Grief but DrL put it in the context of limerence.
Even if No Contact isn’t an option, this is still one of DrL’s best blogs.
This one is another “Best of…”
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-loneliness-of-limerence/
Speedwagon, it sounds like you have to experience the grief process. You donāt have to do it alone. Post here when you need us. Iām sure I speak for other commenters that I am happy to figuratively sit with you in your grief.
I frequently notice myself calling Limerent Emeritus āthe wise old owlā in my mind. He has great information to share.
Hey Speed,
You are not alone for what it is worth. I’ve been having those days lately just more leaning toward depression. I wanted to thank you though as I took your advice and simply asked LO today if she was ok. We had some really good convos off that and as it usually is with the LE it had nothing at all to do with but a lot of stress in her life. Again, thank you for that I know you are feeling down but you definitely helped me out this week.
Vent away man. It can be good.
That’s great to hear…makes my day actually. It’s so tough to wallow in your own limerent mind, so I am glad you were able to proactively approach LO and get it sorted out. I guarantee she appreciates it as well.
Good work Rufio! Not only did you get your question answered, you were a listening friend to a girl who is feeling some extra stress. That is awesome!
I think I am still in denial. Like after 8 months she’ll come back and it will be just like it use to be. Maybe I went through the bargaining when she was still here even though I never directly asked her to stay because I know she needed to leave to get on with her life. But I know I directly and indirectly bargained with her to still maintain some minimal contact.
I don’t think anger would ever be directed at her when I get there, if I do. I think it will be directed at myself for being a fool enough to think she would always be around. She has much more big things in life to go through and one of them ain’t humoring an old man from a former job. And then went back to denial.
I may stay stuck in that for a long while I feel like.
Adam, I have a feeling that you donāt let yourself feel anger towards any woman. Am I right?
No not in my adult life. Younger me, yeah mad at mother for giving me the punishment I deserved for the stupid thing I did or normal sibling rivalry towards my sister. Otherwise no, it gets redirected elsewhere.
Hmmmm, is that healthy?
Story time! This might be irrelevant, but my brain wants to share this story with you.
In September my son was accused of touching a girl inappropriately. He said it was consensual. No one believed him, I didnāt believe him. He was put on house arrest with an ankle monitor and not even allowed to work. He could only leave for medical appointments and only if he was supervised by specific people. That was his life until a few weeks ago when the case went before a judge. The prosecutor presented the case in such a way that he sounded like a defense attorney. I was shocked! There were 3 surveillance videos and it was obvious that the girl consented. The case was dismissed without further comment from the defense because it wasnāt necessary. I was so angry about the injustice of the situation. So angry! The judge asked for comments from the parents and I kept my mouth shut because I would have caused a scene if i said something. So my SO and I took our son out to lunch and we took him to a fun park where we could play and he could be a kid. That anger was festering in me until I finally said something at lunch. I apologized for not believing him. He wasnāt mad at me at all, he was understanding. I admitted that I felt angry that he was treated like a criminal for four months for a crime he didnāt commit. My son was surprisingly okay with it. He said he understands that these accusations have to be taken seriously. Iām glad that I addressed my anger because if I hadnāt talked about it with my son and husband, it would have festered. I am at peace now.
Miss Lovisa,
I mostly try to keep my anger in check because when it does it’s ugly. The last time I got angry and lost my temper it was on LOs behalf. When I was working with her back in 2021 when she reported to the corporate office one day, they took it out on her, the messenger, about something I did wrong on what we were working on.
I went into an absolute fit loud enough that our supervisor came into the office LO and I were in asking wtf was going on. I told him it was unacceptable that they take out on LO something I did they didn’t like when they could have just picked up the phone and called me and told me what was wrong. I told him if I ever heard that happens to LO I’ll go to that office in person and tell them to knock that shit off. There was lots of foul language on my part and I really acted worse than the situation was, I guess in hindsight.
LO was able to talk me down and tell me that it wasn’t that big of a deal. I said it was and if you can’t stand up for yourself out of fear of your job then I’ll handle it because it bs you get treated like that.
Even when I got home my wife could tell something was wrong because I was still mad hours after I got home. It pisses me off to no end some people don’t know how to treat a lady or people in general with some dignity. We all like when people do it to us so we should do it for others. And I get kind of over protective of the women that are important to me in my life. Maybe a little too much.
I can understand your son’s view. Non consensual touching can turn into something real ugly. So I can see your son possibly not being angry at her or the situation in general so that it doesn’t cause more problems. But I am also glad the problem did get resolved for you and your family and that it is in the past.
Adam, I wonder if you can experience anger without losing your temper. I lose my temper sometimes too and I almost always regret it. But, I was really angry after court and I expressed it calmly to some safe people. I think if i would have bottled it up, it would have burst out in other ways. I donāt know where Iām going with this. Sorry.
It’s probably a combination that I do bottle it up and that it hurt LO what those people said to her and that really set me off. Yes I could have handled it a lot better but LO and I were already under a lot of stress to fix the problem that corporate wanted us to fix, which they themselves were just as guilty of letting happen as the actual person that caused the problem we were fixing. So for them to not only NOT be appreciate of LO’s efforts but to scold her like she was a child. That combo together really got to me. But that happens rarely and only in the defense of someone I care about.
Just another check in today. Feeling better today than yesterday. LO worked from home today and she is off tomorrow and so I have 4 days away from her. She did email me today asking how a professional event I attended last night went. That was nice I suppose.
I do have something I could use a take on…I am noticing a trend with LO I don’t like. As I have mentioned before, there is a socially dominant woman who works for me that acts cold to LO and likes to control other people in the office socially. LO always likes to initiate or steer our personal conversations to talking about this woman and I’m kinda over it. This woman is difficult, no doubt, but I feel like LO perpetuates the drama to me by constantly bringing her up. She did it today again thru our email interaction. I feel like she is using it as a mechanism for interaction with me because it’s a struggle we both understand and share. But, we keep saying same things over and over about this woman and I have told LO I don’t really want to discuss her any more because discussing her gives power to this woman over my thoughts and emotions (I get very frustrated by this woman also but she is very good at her job). And I really don’t want to be discussing one employee to another so I have to be very guarded in what I say.
Speed,
I think that is all you can say. You would rather not discuss it anymore. If she continues youāll have to be a little stronger armed and say it isnāt an healthy thing to do in an office. Every office has these types of problems though and it does no good to constantly throw gas on the drama. I am 100% guilty of using what we call āthe teaā as an excuse to text/talk to my LO as she enjoys it as well. I actually told her yesterday I was making an effort to stop so we could just have fun at the end. I also realized how out of touch I was with the age difference. She was upset yesterday but still chatting and age related things came up several times. Iām definitely not thought of as a peer and that kinda hurt but makes sense.
I hope you make the most of your time without LO. Iām still struggling with the end and worrying about it all going poorly as things have been Luke warm lately. None of it my fault but it still drives me nuts. Soon I will be free of this.
Oh nuts. Does LO bring it up because she is being bullied by this other woman? Why is LO talking about her? If I understand right, your LO is kind and a little more reserved. Unfortunately, dominant women tend to bully women like LO. It would be confusing for LO because she doesnāt understand why this other woman is so mean to her. If that is why she is bringing it up and you have no intention of doing anything about it, here are a few things you can try that may shut down the conversation. (That came across as passive aggressive, I canāt think of any other way to say it, sorry.)
āIf I had a magic wand I would make this behavior stop, but I donāt and Iām sorry this is happening.ā
āHave you figured out a way to handle that? Do you know anything that works?ā
I donāt know if that helps. Those were things that soothed me when I was bullied by another person at work. Both times, I genuinely believed that my boss cared and wanted to fix the problem but didnāt know how. Here are a few lines that I use on my kidsā¦
āThat is really bothering you. It makes sense, man, I wish I knew a good way to handle this situation.ā
āWeāll, I donāt think your sister is a malicious person. I wonder why she did that. Hmmm, I might have to ponder this for a while.ā
I think if you repeat back what LO says in your own words with similar energy to hers, that will go a long way. When she feels that you hear her and you care, sheāll probably move on even if the problem isnāt fixable.
See if you can send this messageā¦I hear that you are experiencingāāāāā. I care that it makes you feelāāāāāā. I wish I could make it better, but I donāt have a solution yet.
Or just keep ignoring it. At some point LO will give up and move on. Ignoring it will also drive a wedge between you and LO which might help the bigger picture. (Man, why am I coming across as passive aggressive today? So sorry! Itās not my intention.)
It’s not bullying. It’s more like social exclusion. She is just pissy a lot of the time to my LO and the other woman while she is socially generous to 2 other people. We work in a small office so difficult personalities affect everyone. The situation is handled and being monitored by me constantly and this difficult woman is out of chances basically.
But the situation itself is not the issue, it’s that LO likes to discuss it all the time with me, even if nothing new has happened. Like it’s her go to topic of conversation with me. I have given all the proper advice I can give at this point. But I think LO likes the drama a bit.
Itās possible that she might like the drama. Itās also possible that she is trying to get validation that she isnāt the cause of the problem. She might feel insecure because the dominant female doesnāt accept her and LO might not understand why. Itās kind of like that Dilbert cartoon that illustrates how a beautiful woman effects the men at wok: she turns them into fools, but she has no idea she is doing it. Well that same woman triggers jealousy in other women and they treat her with contempt: again, she doesnāt know why they treat her as an outsider. It sounds like LO is an attractive woman so she already had a target painted on her, but she got special attention from the well-liked boss so that target grew. Itās possible that LO is just trying to make sense of something.
Let me tell you a story. I was head of the administration department for a small engineering company. There was a female engineer on staff. We were the only two females at the time and we had roughly 25 employees, mostly engineers. You would think she and I would be friends. We usually were, but then suddenly she would get cold towards me. One time she told me why she was being cold. Here is what happened. She was talking to one of our subcontractors when I entered the room. He actually said, āWhoa, sheās pretty.ā And walked away from her to talk to me. I had no idea, all I knew is that this subcontractor struck up a conversation and it was convenient for me because he did a special training that I had intended to get done and how convenient that I could quickly make arrangements for the training in that moment. I had no idea how much he had insulted the female engineer. And it wasnāt my fault! I didnāt hurt her on purpose. She and I got past that, but she didnāt last long at that company. I hope that story illustrates how a hurtful event can happen without warning and it might cause resentment.
Anyway, I would guess the reason LO brings up that subject is one or more of the following reasonsā¦
She still wants to have a connection with you and she noticed that talking about the other woman seems to fill that need.
Or
The other woman triggers insecurities in her and so she is seeking validation from you. Maybe you are soothing. Maybe she canāt figure out why the other woman doesnāt like her.
Or
She would like the problem solved.
Btw, I have no idea how to solve a problem like that.
You are good at juggling the needs of your staff and I have no doubt that you will solve this problem.
Lovisa…thank you for your opinion on this. The validation perspective is not one I considered but I think it might be dead on. And maybe she likes a little bit of the connection with me that this shared struggle/drama provides. And you are also correct, LO is beautiful, but actually, this other woman is fairly good looking as well. But by nature of their roles, I need to spend a little more time collaborating with LO than I do this other woman and I do think that creates an issue with the other woman.
There is really no solving this issue. The other woman is just not that likable to some of us (including me sometimes). My wife likes to say she has RBF…Resting B**ch Face. It’s very true actually, she is pissy a lot. I have struggled with whether to let her go, because it would not be so easy to replace her and our work would suffer in the short term. But she has me pretty exhausted.
I have talked to this woman a few times about her attitude but it doesn’t ever really change much. As of now her and LO just stay focused on their own work and don’t really talk to each other.
Oh…and here is a fun new fact. One of my current crushes might become one of my clients. Good Lord…my life!!!
You are welcome. Iām glad that was helpful. I could be wrong, but I donāt think physical beauty can make up for a b*#chy attitude. John Grey (the Mars/Venus guy) would say that the difficult woman is too far on her masculine side. Itās the reason she is so productive, but itās also the reason she is miserable. Your wife is funny. I like her explanation.
Lol, maybe there is an LO2 in your future. Heaven help us all.
Btw, today is the first day my LO3 hasnāt reached out to me since he said he intended to become distant. I think he is out of cell service range because his sports watch hasnāt updated. He is probably at a race, idk.
LO2 is in Hawaii so I didnāt text with him either, though his friend reached out to me yesterday. That was nice.
I am surprisingly content.
Have a great weekend, Speedy!
Lovisa,
“You are welcome. Iām glad that was helpful. I could be wrong, but I donāt think physical beauty can make up for a b*#chy attitude.”
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/beautydemotivator_6744250f-11e6-492a-b50e-bd29951ed48d.jpeg?v=1403275897
Speedy,
“Ohā¦and here is a fun new fact. One of my current crushes might become one of my clients. Good Lordā¦my life!!!”
Well, I guess we know which client will get premier customer service… On the plus side, those clients give you a reason to go to work in the morning.
I remember the summer in college I worked in a camera store. Some people got more attentive service than others. There was one drop-dead gorgeous girl a year behind me in HS that came in the shop with her drop-dead gorgeous mother. I took care of them.
When their pictures came back, I called them to let them know. Unfortunately for me, mom came alone to pick them up so I couldn’t ask the girl out. Mom said she’d never had a store call them before. I smiled and told her it was a new customer service initiative. It built good will and helped move the pictures out of the store faster and freed up space.
Those were both true but I made them up on the fly. Oh well, it was worth the shot.
PSA: This doesn’t apply so much anymore in the age of digital photography but never send in film for developing that you don’t want people to see. The lab would flag the nudes and sex shots so we could look at them in the store. We’d remember who they were.
“So, that’s what you look like with clothes on…”
” Every office has these types of problems though and it does no good to constantly throw gas on the drama.”
Agreed. It’s worse when the person throwing the gas is the boss.
Rufio I agree with Miss Lovisa. If you don’t have any intention of interceding between LO and this woman it is best to address it to LO in the way that Miss Lovisa posted. In a kind way say “you have to fight your own battles”. I interceded on behalf of my LO and another department’s employees because they were belittling her and not treating with dignity and that pissed me off and I addressed it with my supervisor quite bluntly and straight forward. I could have handled it better so don’t do like me and go half cocked and angry like I did. But I have known my supervisor for awhile so it still went well but that may not be your case.
Classic Adam. I love how protective you are of the people you care about. You remind me of my big brothers so much. I have 4 very protective older brothers who adore me. I am one lucky lady!
Dammit this song comes on my playlist shuffle (that I forgot was on it) and there goes my normal thinking for the rest of the day ugh I hate this.
She’s gone, she’s gone
Oh I, oh I
I better learn how to face it
She’s gone, she’s gone
Oh I, oh I
I’d pay the devil to replace her
She’s gone, and she’s gone
Oh why
What went wrong?
Oh yes Adam, itās like that song was written for you. It fits your situation perfectly.
We all have triggers that get stuck in our heads. I had a meeting with one of LO3ās employees the other day. He brought up LO3 and he had so much respect, maybe even reverence in his voice when he spoke of LO3. It turned me on so much. My brain was gone for the rest of the meeting. I couldnāt stop thinking about LO3. The rest of the meeting was a blur for me. Hopefully we accomplished our objectives, I donāt know because I was busy thinking about LO3.
Yeah I am a bit over protective. My wife said after we had our second son, that she is glad we didn’t have daughters with way I am with her, or her sisters, and the other women in my life. I can’t imagine my reaction to “dad I have a boyfriend” :-/
I pushed through the day and it is finally about time to get to go home. I gotta go by the store for momma and then I can relax. Planning on playing a game with my son when I get there as that tends to distract my mind from LO enough that I can enjoy playing with him.
And I am glad to hear that your brothers are protective of you. Eases my mind to know you are safe.
Aww, thatās sweet Adam. Thank you. Enjoy your weekend.
Miss Lovisa
I had a good idea. Im going to ask momma tomorrow if I can paint her nails. I havenāt done it in awhile and I think it would be something we could do to together that would help.
Brilliant! I love it. Let me know how it goes.
Update
An unintended consequence of my limerence is that my SO appears to be more attracted to me. He is spoiling me. From his perspective, his wife has a handful of male friends who seem like good guys and she likes talking to them. He could have protested. Instead he stepped up his game. He became more attentive and loving. Last week, I spontaneously ran a marathon distance and my SO gave me a full body massage that day and for two more days he gave me massages. I was baffled why he would be so nice when I am the one who put myself through that. Yesterday I did a half marathon distance run. It is something I do weekly so itās no big deal except that since I ran at a faster pace I am sore. My husband has been spoiling me. He bragged about me to his family. His cousin even reached out to me because she heard about my crazy running adventures. I love making him proud. Also, he brought me breakfast in bed this morning. I am so spoiled!
I havenāt talked to LO3 in 2 days. I am strangely content. I suspect he went out of town for the weekend.
Update
My suspicion that LO3 was out of town was correct. He was vacationing with his family. When he returned, we connected briefly, then he went to a training and got the flu. Our contact has been minimal for about a week and I can feel my limerence fading, yay!
I continue to remain friends with LO2.
My relationship with my SO is strong. It feels like we are closer than we have ever been.
I am quite pleased with the results of transferring my limerence from LO2 to LO3.
Update
I am going through some withdrawal today. I know it would be easy to engage LO3 and I know it would feel amazing. Iām posting here instead. Our contact has been daily for a few days, but very brief each time. There hasnāt been any depth to our correspondence. Right now it hurts, but Iāll distract myself instead of seeking reward from contact with LO3. Iāll do the right thing no matter how I feel. Hopefully that will reinforce good habits in me.
I engaged SO instead and I feel much better.
Good for you Miss Lovisa. Saturday was a hard day for me with LO. I had to drive and make a delivery for my job and was in my truck and driving for about 4 hours round trip. And I got very much tempted to call LO because I so wanted to hear her voice. Instead I called another co-worker and asked if she had heard from LO recently, since they still correspond together. I felt better that I made the right choice and didn’t contact LO but I really wanted to. Super proud of you Miss Lovisa. Here’s to making better decisions … cheers.
You made the right choice. Iām proud of you too, Adam. I did peak at LO3ās social media today. He is so handsome. Ugh! Itās a small set back, I am pleased that I didnāt reach out to him and he didnāt reach out to me.
Unfortunately, no running for me until I see a doctor because I am injured. Nuts! I canāt do my favorite distraction. I think that may be part of the reason I felt hollow earlier.
Mostly, I am spending the day doing the right thing regardless of how I feel. Thatās a little progress and I will take any progress I can get.
We got this, Adam!
I needed to get this out and I didn’t know which blog post to pick, so I picked this one because NYE was the last time I was in contact with my LO…until today. She texted me out of the blue. I was not expecting it at all. “Just wanted to say hi and see how you are doing.” Well that was the beginning of a two hour text conversation. We had not had contact for almost 6 weeks. I was totally depressed for weeks, crying multiple times a day and thinking of her 24/7. We were good friends but then something happened to me. I became limerent for her and I told her. She really didn’t know what to do with that information since I’m married (to a man). I think she was angry at me for telling her and ruining a really sweet friendship. I was angry at myself for telling her. But I was dying inside and needed to get it all out and after that, things became just very awkward (understandably). Anyway, after being NC for many weeks, I was finally doing better. Not crying anymore. Really starting to move on and then boom, there is a text. We have numerous commonalities and we are very in sync on so many things. I don’t doubt that she missed me, but probably not as much as I missed her. Now I am left feeling like I might regress. I don’t have a reason to not speak to her, we were friends. I just feel like I was making so much progress and now I feel like I’ve taken some big steps backwards. Anyone else btdt?
That is a tricky problem, NinaZee. It sounds like LO was just checking up on a friend who is struggling with something. That is a very normal behavior for a female. She doesnāt understand what youāre going through. If you need space from her, itās okay to say, āI just need some space.ā
You are not the first straight person to post about limerence for someone of the same gender. I assume you generally have attractions to men because of your marriage preference. Honestly, it fascinates me. Limerence is confusing enough, but it would be much harder to add that extra twist.
I hope you find what works for you and that recovery comes quickly.
Sorry, I didn’t give much background on my situation.
I actually told her about 2 months ago, that I had “more than friend” feelings for her. She’s lesbian and kind of masculine, gives off a male vibe and yet female vibe at the same time. It has all been so confusing to me, as yes, I am straight and married to a man. I have never, ever had feelings for any female in this way in my entire life, but we have numerous things in common to the point that when we met, we couldn’t stop talking about all of our similarities. That was the first time we met and I was sure we were deeply connected in some other life. Weird, I know. After our first meeting, we became fast friends, like we had known each other our entire lives. We both had that feeling, like a kinship. Anyway, she was surprised when I told her how I felt about her and needed a few days to process the whole thing. I was really freaking out over the entire thing and told my husband that I had feelings for a woman and felt confused, sad, weird, embarrassed, this list goes on. He was very sweet and supportive, but he did feel a little threatened by her and I told her as much. She was very upset with me for not coming to her first about it all. She had said a number of things to me during our friendship that made me feel like she had similar feelings for me, but I might have been in my limerence craziness and been misinterpreting everything. We decided to continue to be friends (from a distance)and things were ok for a few weeks and then out of the blue on NYE, we had been texting and she said she couldn’t be friends, it was just too awkward. She said she was hurt that I was doing things that she couldn’t be part of. So we were done and I was so sad, but moving on after many weeks of treacherous sadness. TBH it was a huge relief to be moving on from this for so many obvious reasons. But then this morning, I get a text from her and now it has brought up all those old feelings that I have been pushing down for all these weeks. Very complicated. Very messy. Not sure why she’s reaching back out like this after all the drama. I have equal parts frustration as I do elation. So confusing! I’m not sure what to do.
Anyway, thank you for replying to my post. This forum has really been so helpful to me during this confusing time.
NinaZee,
Thanks for elaborating. I see why you are struggling. Thatās hard and confusing. A few things stood out to me from your story.
āā¦ I was sure we were deeply connected in some other life. Weird, I know.ā
Not weird at all. I think that is a common reaction to limerence. I thought something similar with my LO1 and my LO2 thought that about me. When we have an intense feeling for someone, we try to make sense of it.
ā She was very upset with me for not coming to her first about it ā¦ā
You did the right thing by going to your husband first. You donāt owe her anything, but you do have an obligation and a history with your husband.
That does not sound like a healthy relationship. I am concerned for you. What would you like to happen next?
Lovisa,
You are totally correct, it probably isn’t a very healthy relationship. A lot of mixed messages and mixed feelings happening. I don’t know what I want to happen, but I do know that I can’t go back to that bad place I was in a couple of months ago. I have never been addicted to anything (except for coffee maybe lol) but this feels very much like an addiction. I just cannot believe she reached out after all that happened and she made it pretty clear that she couldn’t be friends. I mean, wth??
So yeah, that’s where I am with this. Thank you for your kind replies, I really appreciate it.
NinaZee,
You are welcome. Itās nice to have someone to talk to. This is a tough subject. I couldnāt have understood limerence if someone explained it. Itās something I had to experience to understand. True that limerence is an addiction. Itās called person addiction sometimes. I, too, limit my use of drugs and havenāt been addicted to anything (maybe cleaning and running). I donāt even drink coffee. I like coffee, I used to drink coffee, but when I committed myself to a conservative religion in 1997, I had to quit many vices, even coffee. I totally understand where youāre coming from. I donāt think people like us would understand addiction in any other way. Neither of us would be tempted by a syringe of heroine, but another person? People are good, why would I avoid one of those? Relationships are important and in the beginning, limerence just feels like a great connection with another person. Why wouldnāt I lean into that? Well, fast forward a bit and youāre stuck in person addiction. Maybe itās a lesson we need to learn. I hope that doesnāt come off as holier than thou. It certainly isnāt my intention.
Iām so curious about your experience. I have so many questions, but I donāt want to overstep what you are comfortable sharing.
If LO was clear that she canāt be your friend, I hope youāre able to honor that. I know itās sooooooo hard.
Good luck!
Lovisa,
It really is comforting to have someone to talk to about this, thank you so much. It’s all very foreign to me. Limerence isn’t a word that I had ever heard until a few weeks ago, but as soon as I started reading about it, I’m positive this is what I’m experiencing. My LO isn’t someone I would have ever expected to be attracted to, but it was almost as if I was hypnotized by her. When I initially started crushing on her, I almost felt like I was falling in love. It really caught me by surprise in every way, like I said, I’m not gay and I’m married to a man. My marriage isn’t perfect, but I can wholeheartedly tell you this was not at all something I was searching for or would ever do on purpose. Person addiction sounds a bit creepy, but I do agree, it describes it perfectly. And yes, no actual drug or alcohol would ever interest me to become addicted to, but I do imagine this is how true addiction feels.
LO was clear that she can’t be my friend, but then she was the one who reached out to me yesterday after basically writing me off 6 weeks ago. I was totally not expecting it and froze like a deer in the headlights when the text came in. I waited a few minutes before replying but I just got so overcome with old emotions that I ended up responding in a nice and friendly way (rather than coming right out and asking why the heck she was texting me) and then we texted off and on for about 2 hrs like nothing had ever happened. She even went so far to say “I’ll be in your neighborhood in a few days” within the chat. I imagine this was to see if I would like to meet up for a walk or coffee or something. I just sent a thumbs up and left it at that.
It’s fine if you want to ask me anything. I am not exactly holding back here, since I don’t know anyone on here (I don’t think lol). And sorry if I’m making this all about me! I would like to hear your story, as well š
Have a good night!
Hi NinaZee, sorry to butt in but I have been following your story. I have a couple thoughts if you don’t mind?
First, because this woman reached back out to you after these last couple months of saying she wanted no contact would indicate to me that she actually does want something. And it sounds as if you don’t know what that something is yet.
You have the opportunity now to take control (live purposefully) and dictate the relationship. Maybe she just wanted to ease some guilt, and this was the only contact she will make. Or, maybe she wants to reestablish just a friendship. Or maybe she wants to test the waters of a romantic relationship.
Question is, are you prepared for any of these scenarios and what is your plan? What would your SO be comfortable with? What are your boundaries?
There are a few blog posts here at LwL about being friends with a LO. Can you truly do this, because your feelings for this woman seem wholly romantic and a friendship, whether it is just very casual or deeper, may intensify your limerence and cause more disruption in your life and marriage.
For me and my LE, my focus has been managing my emotions. I can’t go NC with my LO so I manage my coexistence with her very closely so I can function well. But I am not friends with her, I can’t be. She would be if I pursued it, but I know from dabbling in it with her that it causes me too much distress. I honestly wish at this point she was not in my life and I could go NC.
I think you should think hard about whether you can have this woman in your life at all. Most LE success stories on LwL seem to involve NC so if it’s possible, you might want to take it.
I hope this was helpful and did not sound to preachy?
Hi NinaZee, Speedwagon has some good stuff for you to consider.
Here are a few of my questions.
Why did your LO say she couldnāt be your friend?
I hesitate to ask this because I donāt want to plant seeds in your mind, did you have sexual feelings towards LO?
My story is mostly laid out in the comments section of the New Years post. Here is a summaryā¦
My relationship with LO1 lasted 17 years and was dormant most of the time.
My limerence for LO2 was awful because of the intrusive thoughts. It brought me to this website. About a year ago I was desperate to get LO2 out of my head and I used transference on purpose. It worked. I have a mild LE with my LO3 now. What I didnāt anticipate is that my LO3 developed feelings for me and he disclosed to me last June. We set boundaries and weāve managed to remain friends. I am also friends with my LO2. I have NC with my LO1.
I hope that helps.
Speedwagon,
Thanks so much for chiming in, I really appreciate your thoughtful insight. I know my story is a bit odd given the particulars of the circumstances. I do feel like I have some control over the situation now, since she reached out to me. It made me feel good (but like a drug good, so probably not really good…). Anyway, she said she couldn’t be friends because she was hurt that my husband was feeling threatened by her. I think she wanted to be “that friend” who was kind of part of our family, came to holiday dinners, came to see us at our lake house, that kind of thing. I truly think she wanted us to adopt her as a family member. She’s single and alone and I do think she really felt a kinship with me and wanted to be a part of what I have. She probably has some boundary issues, if I have to guess.
I think if we have a more casual friendship, texting, walking the dogs together, etc, that would be more appropriate since I know we both feel a deep connection to one another. It doesn’t have to go any further than that, but I’m not sure if any of that is possible. I think she was testing the waters and throwing it out there that she’s going to be in my neighborhood in a few days to see if I ask to get together. I’m not going to do that. I don’t know what I should do. I know what I want to do, but I don’t know if that’s what I should do. She can be very hot and cold and I am probably better off without seeing her in person. You are correct, NC is definitely safer in these situations.
It sounds like you have had your share of LO in your life. I probably have, too, as hindsight is 20/20. Learning about this word, limerence, is opening up a whole new world for me in terms of understanding myself and others around me. It really is fascinating!
You were not at all preachy, you are kind and thoughtful and I appreciate your help. It truly seems like the people who are on here are actually decent and kind and understanding of a very sensitive subject. I’m so glad to have found this place.
Thanks again for your kindness, have a good rest of your day!
Hi Lovisa,
Thanks for your message, I think I might have answered some of your questions in response to Speedwagon, lol oops!
LO said she couldn’t be friends because it made her feel bad that she couldn’t be included in my life. I think she really wanted to be a bigger part of my family life and I wasn’t comfortable having her be that person in my family. Mainly, I didn’t want her over to my house because I had such strong feelings for her and it never felt right introducing her to my family. Yes, I do have sexual feelings for her, which is a big part of my confusion. I never once thought oh, I’m lesbian or even bi-sexual, but now I don’t really know.
I’m so sorry, I did confuse part of your post with Speedwagon’s. You have had a lot of LO in your life! I’m glad that you found this forum to talk to others about their situations and to help others. You have a lot of insight and you are very kind. Thank you for your help.
Have a good day š
NinaZee, Itās okay that you responded to my questions as part of your message to Speedwagon. No problem at all. I have some thoughts about the stuff you shared.
First, you said that your LO tends to be hot and cold. I just want you to be aware that the hot and cold behavior triggers uncertainty and intensifies the LE.
Second, there is a theory that a person only experiences limerence for one gender. You mentioned that this might not be your first LE. Were your other LOs male or female? I am just curious.
Your experience is so interesting to me. I know it is hard on you. Please only answer if you feel comfortable sharing.
I think one reason people on this site are so kind is that it is humbling to find yourself in an LE. I felt so confused, alone and ashamed before I found this community. I didnāt feel safe talking about my LE in depth to anyone. But since we are all in a similar situation, it feels safer here. Talking about it helps a lot!
It sounds like you are leaning towards NC and I think that is best for your situation. Good luck!
Lovisa,
Funny, I did read about the hot and cold that makes the LE so much more intense. It’s totally unknown and scary and exciting and crazy!!
Also, yes, I had read about limerence only being for one gender and I (personally) disagree. I don’t know how that could be a thing, for it to be for just one gender. I just think it’s uncharted waters, but I cannot imagine that I am the first person to have this happen to. I look back at my life and see certain relationships that I have had or people who I have known and I definitely think I had something similar to LE. Always with the opposite sex though. And TBH I think that if my LO were male, it wouldn’t have flipped me out as much as this one is bc she is female. And this one is beyond anything I have ever felt. I literally picture myself with this person in every way possible. I don’t even know why! I almost feel like it’s other worldly. And I know that’s not a normal thing I could say to anyone IRL bc anyone would say I am totally insane. I did think I was actually going insane when this all first started and that’s why I am finding so much comfort in this website. It’s hugely helpful, comforting and reassuring. I now know that I am not insane and it’s something that I can work through. But as you say, it is also extremely humbling to find yourself in this place.
I had been NC with LO for 6 weeks until Saturday when she texted me. I had really started moving on and then I had a setback from the communication. Not extreme though. I felt a lot more in control of the situation and that felt good. I was sad about not having her in my life. I adore this person so much and it crushed me that she was no longer in my life. Now just knowing that we have a small connection again does make me feel much better but I think it will be a lot less communication, which is a much healthier place for me.
We texted one more time for a few mins on Monday. It was friendly but not too friendly. I have written to her and erased it many times this week. I am doing my best to not reach out. It’s hard, I’m not gonna lie. I wrote something and saved it. I don’t think I’ll send it but basically I am very curious why she reached out to me after stating pretty bluntly that she felt awkward now and didn’t think we could be friends. It’s confusing to me. But I think I will not send it. What are your thoughts on that?
Thanks again for always responding so thoughtfully, it’s really nice to have someone to talk to about all of this.
Take care ā¤ļø
NinaZee,
You are very welcome. I am enjoying the back and forth between us, too.
āā¦ she reached out to me after stating pretty bluntly that she felt awkward now and didnāt think we could be friends. Itās confusing to me. ..What are your thoughts on that?ā
I think her feelings are conflicted just like many of us on this site. I think you have good judgement when you hold yourself back from adding fuel to this fire.
Your story of limerent experiences for both genders is the first that I have heard of. Iāve seen other commenters who have limerence for the gender that they donāt typically feel sexual attraction towards, but none of them have a history of limerence that they have shared. Just because you are the first, doesnāt mean you are the only person in this situation. I am the only person who I know to have used transference successfully, but there are probably others. We are all learning from each other.
You are not crazy. You experienced a chemical reaction from your hormones. You are normal. When it felt good, you pursued it. When it felt concerning, you got help, created an action plan, and you are actively looking for answers and trying to create the best outcome for everyone. You are handling this very well. And sharing your story helps others.
I understand the written and discarded notes. Itās a common symptom of limerence. Again, you are normal.
I am going to sound hypocritical when I say that I donāt feel good about you being friends with your LO. I am friends with my LO2 and LO3. In fact I talked to both of them today. But my instincts give me caution in your case. I donāt know why, but something feels threatening with your LO. Iām sorry but I have nothing to base this on.
Best wishes!
“I think she really wanted to be a bigger part of my family life and I wasnāt comfortable having her be that person in my family. ”
” Yes, I do have sexual feelings for her, which is a big part of my confusion.”
My problem is the exact opposite. I would been so happy if LO could be a bigger part of my life because I have no sexual feelings just a longing to be around her. I actually had a chance to introduce my wife to LO (way back before I ever learned about limerence) in hopes they would hit it off. I really think if she could be in my life more and my wife could befriend it would help with the limerence. But my wife was unwilling to meet her, so I never got that chance.
I am very happy for LO with the man she is with. He seems to care for LO and her daughters and wants to be a part of their family. There is a small measure of romantic thoughts about LO but for the most part I just enjoy being around her and getting to talk to her. I can usually quash those thoughts with reminders that LO is happy with the man she is with and that usually gets my mind back on track.
I only learned about limerence about a month ago when I found this blog. And so many people have been so helpful with information and their experiences with their limerence and LOs. I am very glad to have found this site and these people as I know it has helped me with this LE.
Also Miss Lovisa is one of the nicest and kindest ladies I have ever met and she makes it really easy to talk about what you are going through. She is very adapt and making people feel comfortable to share.
Aww, Adam I really needed to hear those kind words about me today. Thank you so much!
I feel like everyone contributes here and I couldnāt be more grateful.
Adam, I have a few random things on my mind that I want to share with you. First, there is a series called āThe Chosenā that I am watching with my SO and I think you would enjoy it. Itās free on Amazon Prime and I think you can download an app called Angel where itās free if you donāt have prime.
Also, I talked to my SO a little about limerence. I used your story and Speedwagonās. He was baffled. He kept saying, āI donāt understand, I thought he was married.ā I asked if he had ever felt a strong attraction for a woman and he said he hasnāt since the first time he saw me. He said that if he notices that he is attracted to a woman he pushes those thoughts aside. The closest experience he had was with one of his employees who went through a rough divorce and my SO had a feeling like he wanted to help her. He said it was never sexual for him though she is beautiful. It reminded me of your story. But my SO doesnāt have lingering feelings for this girl. She moved away and he recently learned that her new husband is not good to her and it bothers my SO, but not too much. He doesnāt think about her very often.
I think that I feel safer to talk to my SO about the hard stuff because the people on this site have been so kind and open to discussion. Thank you!
You’re welcome Miss Lovisa. And mean every word of it. I find it very safe to share with you.
The Chosen sounds interesting. I may not be a practicing Christian but Jesus, whoever he is to anyone, is a fascinating man. I will look into it. It’s seems to be getting rave reviews.
It’s a good thing you felt comfortable with your husband to talk a little bit about this. And I totally understand how your husband may have gotten closer to this woman even if it wasn’t limerence. I also have a strong need to help a woman in need, especially when it concerns a man mistreating her. It’s the one thing that upsets me the most.
I think my wife was quite confused and upset about understanding limerence. I was confused by my own feelings until I found this place. Sometimes I still don’t understand why all this time later and I still can’t shake what I feel about LO.
But it sounds like your husband was accepting even if he is not quite understanding about the extent of having those kinds of feelings like that for someone you cannot be with.
I am very thankful for this site and the people in it as well. It’s helped me a lot.
Thanks Adam. I will respect that you say you are not a practicing Christian. But, to me, your actions say otherwise. Thanks for your willingness to consider my suggestion, too. And I think youāre great either way.
Yes I am lucky that my SO is open to new concepts. I am slowly opening up more to him. He feels closer to me.
Adam,
I find it so interesting that you wanted your LO to meet your wife and become friends! Is your wife jealous of your LO? I could see that being a problem or being great. I think I would be too obvious to my family that I was having strong feelings for my LO and it would have just been weird in the end. My son is very empathic and every single time I’ve said LO’s name (LO and I hung out a lot and did things, so he knew who I was talking about) he would say to me “there is something I don’t like about that person every time you say her name, I get a really strong feeling of negativity”. He literally picks up on this kind of stuff without me having to say anything. I wonder if he unconsciously feels the intensity I feel towards her and feels like she’s a threat to my marriage to his father.
Interestingly, my husband and I had spoken about an open marriage in the past. He was the one who brought it up first and I was dead set against it. Many years later, when I brought it up to him, he’s the one who is against it. And I can see why. It would not end well for any of us, so I will leave it alone.
Anyway, so sorry I got off on that tangent lol. I’m glad for you that you found this site. And yes, I wholeheartedly agree that Lovisa is a wonderful person and her posts are nothing but kind and sincere. She’s an angel.
Take care,
NinaZee
Miss Nina
Oh much worse than jealous. In late 2021 my wife was suspicious and so much as accused me of having a PA. After time of not being able to prove that she fell back on an EA.
But she never met LO or even has talked to her so I don’t know where or why she came to this conclusion. But she convinced herself it happened/is happening. She is vague when I confront her or she confronts me about the PA. Our talks usually ended in arguments because my wife would say hateful things about LO which frustrated and angered me because LO is wonderful woman. And I thought that long before limerence. She also has no problem with my other female co-worker that I worked with as well. She just zeroed in on LO and can’t get a clear reason from her as to why.
All that history said, LO and my wife and similar in many personality traits and maybe some of the reason the limerence set in eventually. That’s why I wanted my wife to meet her and see LO for the woman she is not the homewrecker she thinks she is.
I found out from past discussions my wife and I have had about a threesome I could never do either. I am to protective of my wife and I feel I would be quite jealous to see another woman (thats what we hypothetically agreed on) touch my wife in those kinds of ways. So I think I wouldn’t end up enjoying the experience.
Adam,
When LO#2 found out I was dating my wife [we were long broken up], she said, “I want to meet her.”
I looked at LO #2 and told her, “Nothing good can come of that.”
She came back with, “Why not? I’m harmless. ”
Actually, she got that from me. I came back with, “You might be benign but you’re not harmless.”
LO #2 rarely challenged me directly but she came back with “What’s the difference?!” There was an edge in her voice that I’d never heard before.
I smiled at her and explained, “Harmless means you can’t cause trouble. Benign means you’re choosing not to cause trouble.”
Even I wasn’t that much of an idiot as to let my 34 yr old ex-girlfriend anywhere near my 23 yr old new girlfriend.
Now, when LO #4 sent me a Facebook friend request after knowing her for several years but 6 months after breaking up with her boyfriend, my wife told me to accept it.
If I was behind LO #4’s wall, so was my wife.
Be careful.
Holy cow you two are interesting! Open marriages, threesomesā¦ wow! Spicy!
Adam, when I realized how much I liked LO1, I wanted him in my life long-term. He only taught so many classes at the community college so there was a pending termination date to our contact. We introduced our spouses and became couple friends. My husband had no idea that LO1 and I had intimate feelings for each other for 17 years. I guess it kind of worked, but it made NC impossible without disclosing to my SO. And the limerence returned with thoughts or contact with LO1. It was a rollercoaster ride of limerent and dormant feelings. It was actually painful. But I am dumb enough that I will probably do that again.
I think we leak our feelings for LO and other people pick up on it. That is probably the reason Adamās wife sees his LO as a threat. Maybe that is why NinaZeeās son has concerns about her LO. But, NinaZee, I have to be honest, I have a bad feeling about your LO in general regardless of your feelings. Something feels off.
Update number…whatever. I seem to have come out the other side of disclosure unharmed other than my emotional well being. LO is cheery now and quite warm with me. I have her working on a significant project and that has given her some work excitement and purpose. I can tell she is enjoying her days again.
My problem is, I gave her a significant project which requires me collaborating with her 2-3x a day, maybe for 15-30 min. It’s becoming tough on me to have that much interaction with her at the office then come home and have no interaction. I find myself a bit down in the evenings and the weekends. I’m going to need to back off a bit at the office and keep her just a little more distant. It’s tough though when she is so warm with me, I desire the interactions with her but it’s not helping calm the LE.
Oh limerence…what a wiley creature you are.
You are doing a good job, Speedwagon! You are handling limerence like a champ. You remain a faithful husband. You faced the limerence head on with courage and honesty. Now you are shouldering the burden of the aftermath yourself. It sounds like LO has the benefit of believing that she got her friend back and his attraction wasnāt that serious or he is over it or something like that. I really donāt see a better outcome for your story.
I know you will do the right thing regardless of how you feel, too. Perhaps limiting in-office contact is the solution, I donāt know. I donāt know if limerence should be treated in the same way that fears are treated. There was a trail that was too intense for me last summer and I had to turn around. I felt defeated. After that, I kept trying until the trail didnāt bother me at all. The last time I hiked it (not running because it is on the edge of a steep drop off and I am not that stupid) anyway, the last time I hiked it, my anxiety wasnāt triggered at all. It felt so good! I think I am cured enough of that fear that I can tackle a few more intense trails. Iām not sure if limerence should be treated this way but that trail came to my mind when I read your update. Itās probably irrelevant, lol. You are the best judge of what you need in order to get through this LE.
Thanks for the update.
Thanks, Lovisa. I am resolved right now to keep a bit more distance between LO and myself. The past few weeks I have been her friend fairly strongly to smooth over the disclosure but now I feel we are past that and I want to back off a bit. This means focusing my interactions with her on just more immediate work needs. My current interactions with her tend to trail into more personal warm chit chat and tend to linger a little longer than they should. It’s also easy to manufacture work related interactions with her so that I get that connection time with her that I crave. And she has been so receptive and warm to it lately. So I want to back this off just enough that I’m not feeding my craving but that I don’t seem cold to her either. It will be a balance.
It’s just hard to expend that much emotional energy on someone who may be indifferent to me relationally. I do think she likes the attention when I give it, but I don’t think she desires it or thinks about me at all when away from the office. It also frustrates me that she is not a very relational or conversational person to begin with and a lot of our interactions are at my initiation, as it seems typical of most LO situations. I have a couple other employees that actually provide me more relational initiation than my LO that I would consider better friend potential. When I really think about, my LO is my LO mainly because of my rescue fantasy for her and my strong physical attraction to her. Not the best reasons I suppose.
So I am going to try backing off and see if that helps alleviate some of the pain I feel over her at the moment.
Speed,
It could help. Iāve done something similar (for the most part) as I have stopped going to her. It has limited our interactions because of course she isnāt thinking about seeking me out but she still seems to come by a few times a week. I noticed as well that Iām not sad anymore just a little angry/frustrated, though I would never act on itās that wouldnāt be the moderators or fair at all. I think it is a good sign as I was quite tired of being so glum. Only like 3 weeks left for me. I see her when I see her. There are still tough and lonely days but not as bad as the past and forced interaction that would leaving me down. So far.
Great strategy! Thanks for walking me through your plan and your reasons for it.
Hey Rufio, have not seen you here for a few days. Sounds like you are hanging in there, it’s tough I know but those 3 weeks will go fast. I’m very curious to know how the last couple days will be, you have to keep us informed. I’m hoping they resolve for you nicely. As you can see I am trying to figure things out myself.
@ Lovisa…I am very curious about something. Maybe you can help. When you transferred limerence to LO #3 was there heavy sexual attraction or was it more emotional connection? Do you currently have heavy sexual attraction to LO #3? Reason I ask is I am starting to build a nice friendship with another woman I work with, she is an attractive woman, but I am not so personally sexually attracted to her. As such I find that I feel quite comfortable talking with her and I find her to be a much better conversationalist than my LO. She has become a nice distraction for me from LO. Today, she worked from home and I was at the office. She texted me a question about a work matter but our text conversation trailed off into some chit chat about this and that for the next half hour or so. And she gave me a few nice compliments as well during our conversation. I find texting with her engaging, she texts in mature adult sentences and thoughts unlike my LO who texts like a 16 yr old girl. In the 30 minutes we interacted she made me feel more appreciated than my LO ever has. Anyway, I don’t think I could necessarily transfer LE, and I don’t want to per se, but I think I like striking up a deeper friendship with this woman, and found myself in a good mood the rest of day after interacting with her. It made me wonder if I could tamper my LE by investing more energy into friendships I have with other woman. And just if you are wondering… this did not feel like a glimmer. I don’t feel it and I don’t feel it coming from her. She is just genuinely nice and conversationally engaging.
Rufio, itās good to hear from you. Iām with Speedy that I hope you continue to share your story as it unfolds. If not, thatās fine, but I at least want to hear how youāre doing.
Speedy, I think you are on to something. Leaning into your relationships with other women might be the right move.
To answer your question, I was not sexually attracted to any of my LOs in the beginning. My LO3 happens to be very physically attractive, but I didnāt care or even notice at first. It was all about the conversation in the beginning. He was interesting and attentive. I leaned into it and found my intrusive thoughts for LO2 fading. It took about a month.
Hey Speedwagon, do me a favor. Before you get too into your relationships with women, consider your wifeās feelings. Have you guys figured out what you are both comfortable with in terms of relationships with the opposite sex? It might be time for a conversation.
Miss Lovisa
I was raised in a Christian home I just no longer practice any particular Christian religion. But my parents raised me with the morals that are the core of Christianity and they have stuck with me despite that I haven’t been to church in 20 plus years. And while I let boys decide themselves on religion I did raise them with the same core morals that my parents left with me.
Speedwagon
That sounds familiar except I was given the project with LO by my supervisor and how I got to know her and her eventually being LO. Even though to start I had no more interest in her other than she was a nice patient lady to work with. It seems it’s quite common that LOs are co-workers among the stories I have read here of others. I guess when you spend 40 plus hours a day with someone for long enough something is bound to happen.
That makes sense.
Just scrolling through Pinterest and see a pin that say …
“You will loose yourself trying to hold on to someone that doesn’t care about loosing you.”
If it were only that easy to not. Cause if I don’t try to hold on I might never see/hear from her again and that’s a truth I’m not ready to face. So I hold on.
L.E.
You maybe right, that it was a good thing it didn’t happen. Like Miss Lovisa said we leak our feelings of LO out without even consciously knowing it. I remember a discussion we had one time where my wife responded with “oh her again?” when I mentioned LO. Back when she still worked here.
I asked “Why don’t you ever respond that way when I mention (my other female co-worker’s name)?”
She says “It’s different when you talk about her than when you do about LO”
I asked “What do you mean different. They’re both my co-workers”
She said “It’s just the way you say her name, I dunno. It’s just different.”
And I left that conversation alone. Not only was she clearly upset but if she couldn’t quite articulate it there was no point in carrying it on. That was one of the last few conversations we had before LO left. Maybe I don’t know myself as well as I think if I can’t even be aware of the context and tone of my own words.
But I don’t think it’s going to ever be an issue. LO hasn’t made it a point to contact me but once and that was more of a coincidence than her contacting me straight forward. And I am sure she will never return to this job again. She is probably more than likely out of my life for good.
Miss Lovisa
Back when my wife and I were on better terms with each other we would talk about all kinds of things like that. Granted we never did it, but it is intimate to know you can talk to your spouse about those kinds of things without fear of shame.
See that would be a dream for me. For us, my wife and I and LO and her gentleman friend to be friends. LO has never formally introduced me to him for whatever reason. But I have seen them interact from afar and than from what she says about him he seems like a great guy.
But perhaps you are right about what you said. And that’s why my wife is so aggressive towards LO. It’s very unlike her though to say some of things she has said about LO. Even if she does still think there is a PA or EA. She is one of the kindest and emphatic people I have known. It’s what drew me to her. I am all about listening and solving problems/issues for people. But I tend to ignore my own. And she can usually draw that out of me and help me face them.
Adam,
“For us, my wife and I and LO and her gentleman friend to be friends. LO has never formally introduced me to him for whatever reason.”
Under the right circumstances, it might work. LO #3 shut me down before I attached to her and transitioned into a full-blown LE. LO #3 was a clone of LO #2 right down to a claimed abortion after getting pregnant by a married guy.
She had her sights set on another guy and she married him. LO #3 wanted to remain friends and invited my wife and I out to socialize as a couple. They invited us to their housewarming wine tasting. My wife asked, “Did you ever sleep with her?” I told her “No” (true). My wife said to accept. We went out with them several times before they moved and we lost contact. I have no idea whatever happened to them.
We got the award for the Worst Wine. I picked it. The prize was a fancy corkscrew, a bottle of good wine, and a book on how to buy wine. On the way home, my wife says, “That’s what you get for buying wine off the clearance rack.”
On a more serious note, do you talk in your sleep? I don’t know any way of avoiding that but it’s a killer. There’s nothing like getting up in the morning and the first thing out of your SO’s mouth is, “Who is —- and what exactly were you two doing together?”
Is there any other way to buy wine? I know that’s how I do it lol
There maybe something to why LO never introduced us to each other. If LO saw that I had eyes for her (if she had any inclination she never voiced it) that might have been why she didn’t. I don’t how much interactions with LO were subconscious that I couldn’t see it but she could. I always tried to remain just friendly but most women are very good at observing behavior.
Yes I do. In fact that is probably what started her thinking LO and I were having an affair. I can promise you any mention of LO in my sleep I get told about. My wife is a notorious insomniac so most nights she is awake while I sleep. So most times she’s asleep when I leave for work so I get hit with it as soon as I get home. Probably at least a dozen times since late 2021. At least that was the first time she came at me with it. I don’t know if I still do or she just stopped telling me.
One conversation about it was
“you said HER (she got to the point she wouldn’t even say LOs name) in your sleep again”
“okay did I say anyone else’s name”
“yeah you mentioned (other female co-worker’s name)”
“okay so am I having an affair with her too?”
“no but you said HER name more”
“so what’s the difference? I worked with LO and (other female co-worker’s name) but you have no problem with her just LO?”
“Its different when you talk about HER than when you talk about (other female co-worker’s name”
“how?”
“I dunno its just different”
And I just let it go after that. That’s the vague kind of answers I would get from my wife when LO would come up. In 23 years of marriage she has never once accused me of anything without doing the research. With LO it didn’t matter what the evidence said, this hussy is trying to steal my husband. And I only say it that way because she tells me she trusts me yet every word out of her mouth says otherwise. I don’t know how we can be having an affair if you trust me. None of it makes any sense to me.
Adam,
“None of it makes any sense to me.”
There’s another woman inside your head. Your SO knows it, your coworkers know it. The only person you say doesn’t know it is your LO and she probably does but it doesn’t matter. She appears to be cool with things.
When I started leaking about LO #4, my wife went to DEFCON 2. Every antenna my wife had went up.
Have you read: https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-dreams/
Early in our marriage, my wife said that she had a dream that I was having an affair with another teacher at her school. I asked her what had given her that idea since I’d never met this woman. My wife said she had no clue. My wife didn’t seem particularly upset about it.
I asked her since that was the closest I hope to get to ever having an affair, did I enjoy it?
Food for thought indeed, Adam, and an insight into how difficult limerence can be in a relationship. It can creep up on you at first. Thank goodness that people wiser than me are offering you some sound support.
In a back door sort of way, your post has strengthened my resolve to persevere with NC. My LO was very affectionate as a friend and I am now convinced that he was limerent for me. The temptation for me is to think āIām hurt because youāre now ghosting meā and that itās all about me. I still canāt stop thinking about him, his former kindness and his spontaneous platonic hugs at the moment.
Reading your post I am reminded, now with embarrassment and guilt, that his SO was probably similarly suspicious of me and our friendship.
Anyway, NC since the end of last year. I have read on another site that you can usually notice a significant difference after four to six months although I think you may have been at it for longer.
All best.
Well everyone else in the office said I had a “crush” on LO so some of my behavior must have been telling even if I thought I was being 100% professional with LO. And it was actually mine and LO’s supervisor that said “We all know you have a crush on her” one day when she wasn’t there. So I guess I’m not 100% self aware.
After all the help I have gotten here I am glad something I said helped someone. In another blog post here someone made a comment that got me to thinking, me wanting to “rescue” LO from her problems/issues and make life less stressful is a lot less selfless than I thought. She was very reciprocal to my help, but she was also feeding my desire to feel needed. Being needed by a woman is my personal kryponite. Which that very recent realization is helping ease thoughts or her and the desire to contact her. She has him now to help her in her life. Even at that I won’t deny the jealousy I feel.
She left June 3 2022. I have had one call from her since. Yet I still have feelings for her and thoughts of her. A particular song I have not heard in while came up in my shuffle while I was at the grocery store checking out (self checkout) and I about literally fell apart in sorrow right there in the f’ing store. It was all I could to keep it together. I hope this ends soon.
“there’s peace in where you area
maybe all I need to know
and if I listen to my heart
I’ll hear your laughter once more
and so I’ve got to say
I’m just glad you came my way
It’s not easy to say
goodbye”
Those are beautiful lyrics. It brought a lump to my throat too. I share your hopes.
Adam,
Your story is interesting and messy lol, but aren’t they all lol?? I definitely think that there are a lot of blurred lines in these “friendships” and that keeping them from meeting our SO and family are a good idea. I still don’t know why mine was so intent on wanting to be close to my family but I have to think that it’s bc she wanted something she doesn’t have in my family. That said, I think keeping her out of my family dynamic is the smart way to fly here.
Have a good day š
NinaZee
Yeah in this limerence I know I probably am not being unbiased. It’s just an excuse in my head to keep up contact with LO. I think now I could be just her friend but as you said I maybe ignoring blurred lines so I can have my fantasy come true.
With your LO maybe she’s just an extrovert that can’t stand being alone. I know a few people like that myself. Might be why she spends so much time at her mother’s house. Obviously you are the only one that can more accurately judge her behavior. I was just throwing out some reasons why. Because I do also think I remember you saying that your LO is single?
Yeah she is definitely an extrovert and likes being with people. I have no idea, but Iām not reaching out to her, even though I know sheās less than a mile away from me right now . Keeping myself busy lol! Trying to focus on anything else. Ugh!!
ā Keeping myself busy lol! Trying to focus on anything else. Ugh!!ā
Yes, NinaZee, that just about sums it up for many of us. I think itās about right for you too from reading your posts.
Lovisa,
“But, NinaZee, I have to be honest, I have a bad feeling about your LO in general regardless of your feelings. Something feels off.”
Yes, I think you’re 100% correct. Something is off and I really should keep my distance. I know that we will very likely see each other in town, as her mother lives very close to me and she spends a lot of time at her mom’s (that’s how we met). Luckily she herself doesn’t live too close by, but when she’s at her mom’s there are multiple chances of us running into one another, so I want to keep things cordial in case we do see one another in passing. That said, I have told my two very closest friends and my sister about my LO and they all 3 feel like you. Not good feelings about this person and I need to be NC for my emotional and mental health. And yes, my son is just so incredibly empathic that if he feels so strongly about her and he doesn’t even know the half of it, I need to just stay far away!
Have a good rest of your day and nice weekend š
NinaZee
āThereās another woman inside your head.ā
And apparently everyone knows it but me? I guess I just donāt realize how much of my subconscious is showing outwardly. I thought I was good at keeping a lid on this.
I read the link you posted LE but I donāt recall dreams of LO. But that the whole suspicion of an affair with LO from my wife probably came from me talking in my sleep about LO means I probably had dreams of her, I just donāt remember them.
I guess the intrusive thought donāt stop even when Iām sleeping. What has this woman done to me?
Adam,
“What has this woman done to me?”
Phrased another way, what’s her “Glimmer?” Once you figure out why your LO sings to you, you can work on getting past it. If you’re really ambitious, you start looking at why you find that Glimmer so appealing.
That’s where things can get really interesting.
“Everything seems right whenever I am with you.”
How Can I Tell Her — Lobo
I remember sometime after I had worked with LO and returned to my regular routine and location that song played on a random youtube playlist. That one line of that one song is the closest I came to understanding myself in regards to LO before finding this place and learning about limerence.
“If youāre really ambitious, you start looking at why you find that Glimmer so appealing.”
She ambitious, hard working, determined, independent, strong willed woman. That’s not something that you have in a woman that you are basically the caretaker of. She pulled herself out of a marriage with a cheater and through a bad divorce. She worked with me through the shit show this job dumped in her lap back then that wasn’t even her fault. She cares for both her daughters on her own. And the heart to humor some old man at work that noticed her. Always with the smiles and laughing at my bad dad jokes. The overall optimistic attitude that she has despite all that she went through is much different than dealing with someone with bipolar and anxiety.
Frederico,
“Yes, NinaZee, that just about sums it up for many of us. I think itās about right for you too from reading your posts.”
Yes, you are so right. I am happy to say that she wrote me this morning and I answered but didn’t continue our conversation. I know how she operates. She writes me. I get all excited and then start to chat more and more. But I didn’t do that this time. I kept myself in check and resisted the urge to ask if she wanted to meet up to walk the dogs or for coffee. I have advised her on something professionally and she keeps using it to continue a conversation. I will offer my advice but that’s about it. I kind of feel like she’s using me for this, which she most likely is, but whatever. I hate burnt bridges, so I will give any advice I can to help her but I won’t give anywhere else. SO HARD TO DO!!!
Good job, NinaZee.
Miss Lovisa its a bad day. Iām trying not to think of LO. But its bad. Im sorry. Im trying to be better but Im not. Im trying to occupy my mind. Why wont LO call me? š«
She has no idea what you are going through, Adam. Can your boys play? Can you do something fun with SO?
Btw, I told my SO that you painted your wifeās toenails. He said, āIām not letting that guy out-do me.ā He painted my toenails silver this morning because it will āmake me run faster.ā Lol! Now, letās seeā¦ can you take your wife to a comedy club? I want my SO to take me to a comedy club and if I tell him that you did itā¦well, do you see where Iām going with this?
Hang in there Adam
Thanks Lovisa š¤
Lol it will make you run faster. I would say silver is a good color because of Quicksilver and would say crimson too because of Flash. Im a comic book geek if you cant tell.
Ive played with my youngest today and called my oldest at college today. Momma and I cooked together last night. And I just woke up from a nap laying in her lap. Im trying to be a better husband to her because I know she knows LO is on my mind.
Ive actually never been to a comedy club Miss Lovisa. That would be a new thing for both of us. We did go see Jim Gaffigan at a local casino some years back together though.
Lol, the silver kind of worked. Iām walking the last three miles of a half marathon as I type this message because my knee hurts. Ugh! Itās beautiful outside, by the way. Go out if you can.
Sounds like youāre doing the right things even though you feel crummy. Good job. If you do go to a comedy club or something like that, I want to hear about it. Jim Gaffigan is hilarious!
Rufio,
If you get a chance, Iād appreciate a favor from you. Will you read Fellowās comments and talk to him about the importance of dating for the purpose of finding someone to start a family instead of playing the field? I want him to make a well informed decision if possible and I think you would be a good source of information. I hope my directness isnāt hurtful.
He is on āWhen LOs Return, part 2.ā
Thanks!
Miss Lovisa
Why is this so hard? I want to be better. But I think about LO. I hear songs that remind me of her. I mean I actually got opened my Bible (suggesting The Chosen to me) and went right to Song of Solohom without a thought because I was thinking of LO and not momma. I feel like King David with Bathseba.
Adam. I know your comment isnāt addressed to me but I was just passing through. Thatās because Iām avoiding alcohol (day 2) and Iām trying to distract myself from LO thoughts this evening with a gritty tv drama. Maybe I should avoid this site too!
Iām so sorry that you are suffering. Itās hard because you are in that complicated mix of psychology and neuroscience hormones that can cause us such pain. It creeps up on us and it then becomes so powerful.
I am not religious. At the moment I am sustained by the knowledge, from this site and others, that the pain will fade in time with no contact. Avoiding reverie and uncertainty, well thatās tricky but achievable with patience. It takes time, bit by bit, to defeat the limerence beast.
You seem like a noble man and I believe that you will gradually feel better over the next weeks and months. One day at a time.
I am cheering for you, Frederico! Way to work on self- improvement by avoiding stuff that doesnāt serve you. Woohoo!
Hey, you should try watching The Chosen. If you do, I would love to hear your honest thoughts.
Very commendable of you Frederico; avoiding alcohol. That’s another addiction besides LO I at some point need to address. I know you can do it. My wife, for no particular reason other than health, decided to get sober. She hasn’t drank since April 2019. And as far as I know as not faltered once. And that’s living with a functioning alcoholic.
I hope that it does at some point too. If for anything because of the lack of sleep I have had lately. Waking up in early hours and can’t go back to sleep because of intrusive thoughts and dreams. I’d like to be able to function normally and make things right in my marriage. I have to accept that I can’t/shouldn’t talk/see LO ever again, even though the NC is not my choice. I have to accept that I may never be able to have LO in my life in any way and that scares me and makes me sad.
Your mind goes where it goes.
Song of the Post: “Hallelujah” – John Cale (2008)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DinEKqtCDkg
Every time I hear this I think of LO #2. But, I go to:
“Well, maybe there’s a God above
As for me all I’ve ever learned from love
Is how to shoot somebody who outdrew you
But it’s not a crime that you’re hear tonight
It’s not some pilgrim who claims to have seen the Light
No, it’s a cold and it’s a very broken Hallelujah”
At least you didn’t send her SO to his death.
Rufus Wainwright’s version is probably the best version to me, and I have no particular fondness or hate for the song itself.
“She tied you to a kitchen chair
she broke you throne
she cut your hair”
How powerless she does make me.
The Wainwrights are some of LO #4’s favorite performers. She knows at least one of them personally. LO #4 posted a video of Lucy Wainwright playing in LO #4’s home after her breakup. I think listening to āHallelujahā sung by Rufus would take me someplace I no longer wish to go.
Loudon Wainwright III is playing a venue near me next month. LO #4 has been known to fly across the country to see performers she likes. For me, going to that concert would be like tempting fate. Although, since she blocked me on Facebook, I could likely stand right next to LO #4 and she wouldn’t know it was me.
I can see this conversation with my wife…
“Sweetie, I just got two tickets to Rufus Wainwright next month!”
“Who?! Why..? Who’s Rufus Wainwright..?”
“The Wainwrights are some of LO #4’s favorite performers and there’s a snowball’s chance in Hell that she might be there…”
Ehhh…no.
LO #2 co-opted U2’s “The Joshua Tree.” LO #4 co-opted most of Billy Joel but there’s some songs not even she can leave an imprint on.
This fall, I plan on attending a reunion of the guys on my first sub. It will be the first time I’ve been back in 19 years. I’ll be within 20 miles of LO #2 and LO #4 if they’re still in their last know locations.
Lol, Iām sorry Adam but āSong of Solomon,ā that is hilarious. Iāve been there looking for answers to limerence, too. Thatās just so funny. Letās laugh at ourselves instead of beating ourselves up.
Why is this so hard? Itās because the chemicals that thoughts of LO trigger are addictive.
I think we identified one of your triggers. You need to feel needed. How can we get you involved in some service? I am passionate about men volunteering as CASAs. Itās like being an unpaid social worker for one child. Itās difficult and rewarding. The reason I like to see men do it is because the kids usually donāt have stable male role models. Itās worth thinking about. Maybe that doesnāt appeal to you, is there is something else you could do?
I think you and Mrs. Adam need to get out into nature. Iām heading to a frozen waterfall as I type this. My SO is driving us: 4 daughters, me and SO. Itās one of my favorite hikes and I especially love it in the winter. What do you like? Can you and SO try something new?
Just to be honest, I struggle with thoughts of my LO, too. Yesterday, he commented on my picture that he hoped my day was as beautiful as my smile. Aww, I couldnāt get him out of my head.
Good for you that you cracked open the Bible. I hope youāll give The Chosen a try, too.
As the winter starts to pass and we get more seasonal weather I will get back to taking walks. I need to do it for my physical health as well. After my doc’s visit at the end of January I had gained back 5 lbs. So yes it is good for me and therapeutic for my brain too.
I am determined to try and start up our weekly date night that ended in 2020 because the crisis. I think that will do good for both of us, her getting out of the house at least once a week and me focusing on her instead of LO.
But I will also think on your suggestions as to something to occupy my mind so I can be busy and not dwelling on LO.
I like your plans, Adam.
OK you guys, this song says it all š©. Tell me if you guys feel me here, too:
The Heart Wants What It Wants
Song by Selena Gomez
You got me sippin’ on something
I can’t compare to nothing
I’ve ever known, I’m hoping
That after this fever I’ll survive
I know I’m acting a bit crazy
Strung out, a little bit hazy
Hand over heart, I’m praying
That I’m gonna make it out alive
The bed’s getting cold and you’re not here
The future that we hold is so unclear
But I’m not alive until you call
And I’ll bet the odds against it all
Save your advice ’cause I won’t hear
You might be right, but I don’t care
There’s a million reasons why I should give you up
But the heart wants what it wants
The heart wants what it wants
You got me scattered in pieces
Shining like stars and screaming
Lighting me up like Venus
But then you disappear and make me wait
And every second’s like torture
Heroin drip, no more so
Finding a way to let go
Baby, baby, no, I can’t escape
The bed’s getting cold and you’re not here
The future that we hold is so unclear
But I’m not alive until you call
And I’ll bet the odds against it all
Save your advice ’cause I won’t hear
You might be right, but I don’t care
There’s a million reasons why I should give you up
But the heart wants what it wants
The heart wants what it wants
The heart wants what it wants
The heart wants what it wants
This is a modern fairy tale
No happy endings
No wind in our sails
But I can’t imagine a life without
Breathless moments
Breaking me down, down, down, down
The bed’s getting cold and you’re not here
The future that we hold is so unclear
But I’m not alive until you call
And I’ll bet the odds against it all
Save your advice ’cause I won’t hear
You might be right, but I don’t care
There’s a million reasons why I should give you up
But the heart wants what it wants
The heart wants what it wants
The heart wants what it wants
The heart wants what it wants
The heart wants what it wants, baby
It wants what it wants, baby
It wants what it wants
It wants what it wants
The heart wants what it wants, baby
It wants what it wants
And I think the most painful thing about feeling all that in that song on a daily, is, well for me, LO has no idea what the glimmer in her does to me.
Yep, Adam, that damn glimmer will get you every time…
I just disclosed to SO. I didnāt mean to, it just happened. I explained limerence to the best of my ability. I admitted that I had limerence for LO2 and that I intentionally transferred it to LO3 out of desperation. I admitted that LO3 told me that he was sorry he couldnāt be my friend anymore because he felt too attracted to me. I also admitted that I worry that I caused LO3ās attraction for me and I feel guilty about it. Much to my surprise, my SO still loves me. He also has more respect for LO3, of course he always respected him, but itās more now. My SO is impressed that LO3 attempted to set boundaries when he recognized his own attraction to me.
I just canāt believe he still wants me. I told him my deepest, darkest secrets. I guess Iām not so bad.
I asked my SO not to seek out this website because I still want some privacy here. He agreed. He also gave me some information to share with you all.
Lovisaās disclosure was a relief. I sensed that there was something going on with LO3 because she lights up when she talks about him. I didnāt think they had a PA, but I worried that they could be going in that direction. I donāt want to lose her. It was a relief to learn that LO3 set boundaries with Lovisa when he realized that he was attracted to her. I admire him for it. I am glad that she told me about her limerence. I will help her and support her in any way that I can. I have no hard feelings towards LO2 or LO3, in fact I have a high opinion of both of them. I am grateful that LO2 brought my wifeās smile back. We have been through some rough times with our kids and she stopped smiling sincerely when we got our foster kids 12 years ago. She is finally happy again because LO2 pulled her out of a depression and I will be forever grateful to him for it. I wish I could have done that for her. I am still very angry at LO1. Lovisa asked me to consider forgiving him. I will try, but right now I am angry.
I understand why some SOs would be angry about limerence. They probably sense that something isnāt right and they think the worst case scenario. I am not upset with Lovisa at all, but I understand how an SO could be upset.
I donāt think I have ever experienced limerence. I will support and help Lovisa in any way that I can. I think it would be cool if she transferred her limerence to me.
Those are not my SOās exact words, but that was the message he wanted to share.
Wow Lovisa, bravo on you for your courage and honesty! I think being honest with our SO is hugely important. Clearly there are cracks in our current situations that cause us to have these confusing feelings for others. I love that your SO is so understanding and not angry with you. TBH, mine was also not at all angry at me. But he just doesn’t want my LO to be in our family dynamic for obvious reasons.
Anyway, I hope that your growth continues. I will say that talking and crying about all of this with my SO was good for us when I told him how I was feeling. We are closer now, but my feelings for my LO are still there. Kind of worse now than in weeks, since she has been texting me. Ahhh limerence, what a beast you are.
Thank you for your encouragement, NinaZee. I am amazed that there was no contention between SO and me. No crying either. Just matter of fact discussion. I worry that he will think about it and his calm acceptance might change, but he doesnāt think that will happen. I guess time will tell.
And yes, limerence is a beast.
SO wants me to tell you that we talked for about 3 1/2 hours.
Well done Lovisa – you have a kind and understanding SO. Congrats on having the courage for such a tricky conversation.
I dont think you could wish for a better response. Do you feel better after disclosing? For most of your posts you were worried about whether it would help.
I think I feel relieved, but I worry about the aftermath. I knew my SO loved me, but wow, he really loves me.
Hi Lovisa,
Limmy here! I’ve been lurking (you guys are too special, I check up on you periodically to see how you are doing). Congratulations! I am in awe of your courage. I see you, with your compassion, and your SO, with his understanding, and both of you with so much love in your hearts as a power couple!!!! Kudos to you both, for facing life in its messiness and complication, with courage, trust, honor, and acceptance. The path is not easy, but with that much love and self-awareness, I feel so incredibly hopeful knowing there are people like you in the world!
On my part, I have made some decisions. My SO and I are parting ways. We care a great deal for each other, but this romantic relationship isn’t right for us anymore. I see the LE as the urgent and not-possible-to-ignore wake up call from the universe for me to reassess my life. I’m not going to seek out my LO, in fact, I feel not very inclined to. Maybe my LO stood for something else, and was just a catalyst, not the end.
So, here we are! Two women who took very different roads. May we both prosper and may the influence of this thing call limerence lead to a deeper appreciation of this one life we have.
Hey girl! Thanks for coming out of hiding to chat. Isnāt this crazy? I canāt get over it. My husband knows that I have other men in my head and he is fine. He is kind and supportive. It blows my mind! He doesnāt have other women in his head. He canāt even relate though he is really trying to relate. He says the last time a woman caught his attention it was me. He liked my butt and wanted to learn my name. Lol. He keeps referring to himself as naive. Which is true of both of us, but I donāt think it is bad in this context.
Itās true that you and I are taking different paths to cope with our limerence. I trust your judgment. You are a deep thinker with high standards. I have no doubt that the path you chose for yourself is the right one. I want to support you in any way that I can.
I am confused by something. Did he enlist? And when does he leave?
Iām sorry, I have to ask. What age-range are you? Is your LO close to your age? I am middle aged and my current LO is 1 year younger than me. His wife is 5 years younger then me.
Lurk away, Limmy! But pop in sometimes and keep us posted, k?
I really think this is a game-changer for you, Lovisa. You are being SEEN for the true you, and you are loved and accepted by your SO anyway. There is no greater magic to hope for in life. It is a gift, a pearl beyond price. You may always have LEs but I think SO is the love of your life.
By the way, it was great to hear what your SO had to say about this. I hope other limerents reading it can take heart from it, that maybe SOs can react in wonderful ways. I also love that he has not demanded you make any changes. He obviously knows he can trust you on this one.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am experiencing a lot of peace since my decision. The hardest part was weighing it up, being undecided for years, in limbo (not limerence limbo, the other kind, marriage limbo). LO forced SO and I to confront things, to take our marriage out of limbo and give it a good hash. We sincerely tried, gave it our best shot. But in the end – no.
Yes, LO enlisted, he goes soon I think, but I have not been keeping up with the details (deliberately). After that flare up of feeling when I found out he had enlisted, I was just grateful the feeling subsided again, though not to the Zero level it did just before I “left” the first time. I’m just glad I could make this decision “sober”, not in the middle of a raging LE (I actually wouldn’t have dared, my mind was addled). It is clear in my mind that the decision is of a greater context, and not due to LO, and would have happened anyway.
I actually wonder, if all our discussing here on LwL is for us to get clarity and courage to do what we need to do. You – to reveal yourself finally and fully to your SO, and therefore move your relationship to a new level of intimacy. Me – to make a decision. I wonder about our other friends here …
I’m also excited about focusing on some new purposes in my life (career especially). All things seem possible, suddenly.
I am in my forties :). LO is a few years younger.
Oh my, I misunderstood. You are parting ways with SO, not LO. I am so sorry.
I did not see that coming.
Don’t be sorry. I think this is a good thing.
Another post-disclosure update because I am bored while I wait for my mom at the pharmacy. I am her ride.
Yesterday my SO was acting distant and strange. He went on an 8-mile run which is very long for him. Impressive, I know, but I felt insecure while he was gone. I keep worrying that he will decide that I am not worth the effort. That my limerence broke our vows and he doesnāt have to stick this out. It was hard yesterday. The insecure feelings were hard. I feel like I got a small sample of what my poor SO has been dealing with. When he got home, he wanted to talk. I was so scared of what he would say, but I bravely listened. He felt guilty for breaking my trust and the guilt was bothering him. He had already visited LwL and downloaded the guide for spouses of limerents. He apologized for visiting the website even though I asked him not to. What a relief, he wasnāt contemplating leaving me, he was actively trying to help me get through this phase. What an amazing man I married! I really donāt deserve him. He also said, āI will never stop fighting for you.ā Wow. I am in awe.
As for LO3, he has something going on at work and doesnāt plan to do any running this week. We havenāt had much contact and I am fine. I have little tinges of limerent reveries, but they pass quickly. I am using CandyCrush to get my mind off of LO3 as needed. I want to switch to meditation when I feel stronger. Right now I need that dopamine hit.
I think I also use you guys to distract myself. It helps sooooooo much. I have been on the website a lot lately.
You got you a helluva guy there Miss Lovisa. That kind of understanding and diligence to help you both keep your marriage strong is nothing short of a miracle. And think of it too, (if I remember this right) you had no limerence for him and here you are with an amazing pair bond.
I wish the two of you all the success you need in your marriage as you step into the future together.
And I like to hear your reports. Other than one big intrusive thought this morning that about broke me, it has actually been a good day. I have been able to concentrate on my work and be a lot more efficient than I have in the past months since LO left. And that’s all thanks to you folks! Thank you!
Here is another post-disclosure update.
My SOās alarm woke me up this morning and I couldnāt get back to sleep. I found myself pondering what Jesusās disciples were like. I googled my question. I read some stuff that lead me to the Wikipedia page about the Jewish Messiah. I was reading that page when my SO was finished getting ready for the day. He entered the bedroom, saw me on my phone and said, āItās okay, Babe, you donāt have to be ashamed of what youāre doing.ā I asked if he thought I was talking to LO3 or if maybe he thought I was on LwL. He did. I told him what I was reading and thanked him for being understanding when he thought I was doing something related to my limerence. We chuckled about it together.
Update
My SOās love for me is inspiring. He genuinely wants me to be happy even if it makes him uncomfortable. He supports my decision to maintain contact with LO2 and LO3. He still has hard feelings towards LO1. My SO thinks LO1 is evil. Maybe someday Iāll tell you what happened with LO1 that caused my SO to believe that he is evil. I think LO1 was a desperate person doing a desperate thing, but my SO thinks some lines are never crossed by descent people.
Anyway, here is some good news. Two middle age men are taking their health seriously and I think I am the inspiration. LO3 said he has had one of his best fitness years (weāve been chatting for just under a year). My SO is trying to win my attention. My SO is doing intermittent fasting, running and doing CrossFit. This is a big deal for my SO because he comes from a family that struggles with obesity. (I need to say that my in-laws are incredible people. The only big problem they have is weight-management. They are wonderful in every other way.). Iām concerned about my LO2. His marriage is hard. LO2ās friend uses me to lift LO2ās spirits. His friend said that no one can put a smile on LO2ās face like I can. Iām happy to be a friend to LO2 and hopefully lift his mood. He is so committed to his family and his god that I think he wrestles with feeling guilty for enjoying contact with me even though our contact is appropriate.
I developed a little paranoia from reading how men are affected by a woman who receives kindness with gratitude. I am second-guessing how I relate to kind men. I donāt want to trigger limerence in anyone. Here is an exampleā¦ There is a widower who has taken interest in my family. He checks on us, visits occasionally, and brings gifts for me and my daughters. He is a kind and generous man. I thought we should hug him because he doesnāt have a wife to hug. But my time on LwL taught me that maybe a hug is too triggering for a man. Iām second-guessing myself.
Interestingly, I also feel more inclined to show kindness to men my age. My SO told me that when he and I run on the pedestrian trail it is a different experience than when he runs alone. Almost every person we pass when we are together, smiles and waves at us. But when my SO is alone, very few people acknowledge him. That makes me sad. It inspires me to be more cheerful and welcoming when I pass men on the trails because I want people to do that for my SO. Those kind greetings are so wonderful! By the way, teenagers really need a cheerful greeting. Everyone, smile and greet teenagers because they need it. You wonāt get much of a response most of the time, FYI. But do it anyway.
I injured my knee during a marathon over a month ago. I keep re-injuring it. Injuries are sooooooo frustrating! I am taking it easy this week (grrrrrr) to hopefully get my knee back. I havenāt been able to run more than 10 miles in several weeks and it is driving me nuts! I am cross training. Cycling and aerobics donāt bother my knee so thatās how I am getting my exercise for now. I gained two pounds, grrrrrr. I know it will fall off fast when I start running again, but it still bugs me.
So far disclosure to SO has brought us closer, inspired SO to take better care of himself, and created some insecurities in both of us. The insecurities are the only drawback. I guess I should give an example of our insecurities. My SO felt guilty for downloading the guide for spouses of limerents from LwL. My SO withdrew from me because of his guilt. I sensed his withdrawal and worried that it was a rejection. I became insecure which triggered insecurity in my SO. We talked about it and we are fine now, but that could have become a spiral into darkness if we hadnāt addressed it.
Overall, I think disclosure was a good thing for me, but I would encourage others to really think it through before disclosing to SO.
Miss Lovisa
Good to hear that your husband is so understand and wanting to grab your attention. That means he is still committed to you and your marriage despite this trail for him. That’s good for both of you. You have a man that dearly loves you.
I know how much better it feels to be proud of your body and health. I am trying to maintain myself as well. But with my wife distancing and not caring and LO being gone I find it difficult muster up motivation. I gained 5 lbs according to my doc’s visit in February.
And Miss Lovisa physical injuries are just like emotional and psychological injuries; you have to give them time to heal. Many years ago when I had my appendix removed I remember how stubborn I was about doing things for myself instead of asking for help which just lengthened the recovery time. So don’t go injuring it again please, I want you to heal. You will get to run again regularly soon. Just be careful until then.
I can’t speak for all men, but physical contact of any kind (outside of hand shake) from a woman that isn’t my wife or family sends all kinds of mixed signals. I would imagine for men like me with physical touch love language even more so. It’s very difficult for a man to not over think touch from a woman that is just a friend or co-worker. It’s boundaries I was thankful that LO set whether it was conscious on not as to how close in proximity was okay with her.
I am glad that disclosure overall went well. I can imagine the insecurities that might arise in a man’s mind when his wife tells him she is smitten with another man. I make no illusions that this perhaps has happened with my wife and another man. But hearing the conformation verbally can be a lot to take in. I wished I could get a little bit of understanding from my wife but it is what it is and its what I have to work with.
Thanks Adam! I need that extra encouragement to let myself heal. It is so hard for me not to run. I will let myself do a 50k in April if my knee heals and that is my primary motivation. I am doing a 10k in May regardless if Iām healed. Last May was my first race and I fully intend to run the same race this year for comparison.
Thanks for giving me a manās perspective. It helps a lot!
It would be hard to find motivation to take care of yourself when your wife is being cold. That makes sense. Itās unfortunate, too. Have you been walking? The weather here is amazing! I hope your weather is good.
Quick update
My SO and I are spending a lot of time together. We can talk about almost anything. It feels great! Earlier today, I wondered if my limerence was cured. I was texting with LO2 and his friend for most of the day. It just feels like friendship ever since my transference to LO3 almost a year ago. Today, I questioned if I have limerence for anyone. Then LO3 sent me an encouraging message. I got butterflies in my tummy and started giggling. Soā¦I guess I am still limerent for LO3. The good news is that after I read his message, I was able to continue with my day. I didnāt get bogged down with intrusive thoughts. I like the moments when I believe that limerence is behind me. It feels peaceful.
Update:
I donāt know where to draw the line in my relationships with men. Yesterday, I went to a religious meeting where the line was set as ādonāt have sexual relations with anyone to whom you are not legally and lawfully wedded.ā Easy! I wish it were that simple. I think the line happens sooner than the bedroom, but where? I donāt think I should avoid men either. For now, I will continue to be honest and open with my SO about my communication with men. Hopefully the lack of secrecy will keep me on the right path.
Damn, those pesky moral pronouncements!
Go back to the story of the woman caught in adultery. After Jesus convicts the crowd with, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” Jesus finished with “Your sin is forgiven. Go and sin no more.”
He didn’t say, “No problem. Keep up the good work!”
Temptation comes in many forms. There’s a specific petition that we’re not let into it.
I read through the Bible many time in my younger days. The days of puberty and growing into (I guess I am) into a man, a scripture where Jesus talks about lust and adultery. It was something along the line of …
“Any man who looks at a woman so as to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
One can take that for what one wants but that is about the best I can come up with as advice for how we view opposite sex relationships outside our marriage. Obviously they are possible as Jesus was close to Mary and there is no indication in the Bible that it was any more than a friendship.
I know outside the Bible that some religions and scholars speculate that the relationship bloomed into a romantic one and even to marriage and children. But if that was the case, the Bible itself says nothing. So I take that as opposite sex friendships are possible we just have to be guarded that they stay that way.
āAny man who looks at a woman so as to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.ā
Expecting everyone that is married to never fancy another person for the vast majority of their life is completely unrealistic.
Sorry…don’t want to get religious here but I want to make sure everyone understands that passage in context. Jesus was proving the point in front of the Jewish religious leaders that ALL are sinners before God because all have human desires, sexual misbehavior being one of them. He said this to show the need for him as savior for all people, even the religious elite at the time.
It’s an unobtainable standard not to lust, but it is not an unobtainable standard not to cheat. Everything in between gets very grey very quick.
@Lovisa…I agree the line happens sooner than just sex. Emotional affairs are real things that can be damaging. It may be hard to define the line, but I think you will know it when you see it. I have been to religious marriage talks where no man should ever be alone with another woman. I am not that extreme, but my SO is more towards that than me.
Thank you for your thoughts. All of them are helpful.
Update
It has been a little over a month since I disclosed to SO. We are doing better than ever. We can talk openly about almost anything. I feel close to SO. Our sex-life is amazing! SO is getting serious about running. I think my knee is healed because I havenāt had pain in a few days. Woohoo!
LO3 and I are still briefly communicating every 1 to 3 days. We use a social media app where we are each otherās only contact. Itās an app where we log our training. If we donāt talk for a few days, one of us will ālikeā and ācommentā on the otherās activity to get the ball rolling. Since I turned off my notifications, the frequency and depth of communication with LO3 diminished significantly. I am content with things the way they are. Itās been a year, so maybe the limerent feelings are fizzling out. I take that back. LO3 and I are on the same road trip on the same day. There are some popular stops and my family spent two hours at one of them. I realized there was a chance that LO3 could show up in the same place and I became very anxious. I donāt know if I could handle seeing him in person unannounced. That anxiety is definitely a symptom of limerence, so I guess I still have it.
LO2 and I texted every weekday, all day long, for two weeks. I didnāt initiate any of it. I explained a little about limerence (without using the word) and hypothesized that LO2 was stuck in my head because I was coming off of antidepressants. He thinks that is 100% the reason he was stuck in my head. I told him it wasnāt his fault, but Iām pretty sure he triggers limerence in other women, too. He has had some strange experiences with women including being stalked by a woman who wanted to leave her husband to be with LO2. He is good at connecting with women. Over the years (weāve been friends for 20+ years), I suspected that he knew what he was doing, but now I think it is just his personality and he doesnāt realize how alluring his behavior really is. His dad was a therapist and I wonder if LO2 picked up skills without realizing it. Anyway, I admitted that there is a different man in my head and I hope to someday just have my SO in my head. LO2 thinks it would bother him if his wife had other men in her head. LO2ās friend wouldnāt mind his wife fantasized about other men if it kept her libido up. But he also feels conflicted about it. They both admire my SO for being so patient with me.
In summaryā¦ LO2, his friend and my SO all know that I had limerence for LO2 and transferred it to LO3. All of three of them seem fine with it, curious and a little concerned, but fine. There have been no changes in the way we interact. LO3 doesnāt know about limerence or even the symptoms, but he does know that I am attracted to him and he is attracted to me, too. Both of us remain committed to our SOs.
I feel grateful for the awakening that accompanied limerence and I am sooooooo grateful that I didnāt act on my feelings. I think boundaries are key to managing limerence.
Update:
I think I am almost finished with limerence. I am becoming more present with my family and the intrusive thoughts are fading. I think that LO3 has been pulling away. I donāt know why he seems distant, but I donāt want to spend time trying to figure it out either.
That’s so good to hear miss Lovisa, as for LO 3 pulling away this is nothing but a Blessing just don’t make it a fuel for uncertainty, try and take satisfaction in the uncertainty being unable to effect you. Thank God for your husband but good souls are for good souls at the end of the day.
I am also making huge improvement i thought i wasn’t making progress but i realized recently i had an extremely bad withdrawal and i checked the days and it was day 120 NC i thought maybe after 4 moths it will be better and i haven’t had a withdrawal since then which was 9 days ago, 9 good days considering everyday use to be a bad day this is progress! All tho NC is will end next week because of Uni lectures ( i woke up for late for every lecture next week) I’m just worried how me seeing LO from across room will effect me even worse if she sees me and lights up which will give me a buzz. (Also my comment glitched away i rewrote this i hope it doesn’t show up twiceš¬)
Thanks for those words of encouragement, Hf. You were very helpful.
Of course LOās warm reaction to you will be triggering, but I believe that you will do the right thing.
I hope your sickness is improving.
I listened to the Quran being sung on YouTube. You are right that it is beautiful. I probably would enjoy it more if I understood the message. Thank you for sharing something with me that is so sacred to you. I appreciate it.
Hi Lovisa,
That is wonderful news!
Do you think you will be susceptible to a new LE in the future or do things feel different now?
I donāt know. I had some limerent symptoms again. I just donāt know.
Update
I found out why LO3 pulled away. He ran another 100-mile race a little over a week ago. He used two pacers who were both divorced. Hearing them talk about their ex wives inspired LO3 to focus on his family. He wants to not only be there for them, but to also be present with them. We had very little contact for more than a week then he suddenly asked for a phone call so we could discuss his run. The phone call didnāt work out, but we had a lovely text session. Both of us are grateful for our families. I enjoyed hearing him speak highly of his SO and the part she played in his 100-mile race. His favorite part of the whole experience was hearing her voice at the end. She was proud of him. Our conversation was edifying. It triggered a little limerence in me, but not too much.
The limerence has faded a lot since disclosure to my SO. I donāt think I could use limerence as a mood booster intentionally anymore. I am scared to try, but I donāt think it would work anyway. What I mean is that I donāt think indulging in a daydream about LO would give me a dopamine hit like it has in the past. I associate guilt with all daydreams right now. For example, today my dad shared something with me that I wanted to share with my SO so I found myself rehearsing the conversation in my head. I felt guilty for having a pretend conversation with my SO in my head. I stopped doing it. I donāt know if it was wrong of me to do that either. I am just hypersensitive about daydreams or imaginary conversations in my head. I told my SO about the imaginary conversation and told him that I worry I did something wrong. He doesnāt know if itās right, wrong or normal because he doesnāt do that. He doesnāt understand it.
I think choosing to be more present – like in the example of not rehearsing a conversation with your SO – is a revolutionary step for limerents like us. I would say many of us have a rich fantasy world in our heads. Limerence fits that modus operendi – it really is just fantasy in overdrive. So choosing to be present even in non-LO situations is huge. And it is really going out of your comfort zone to choose to live in reality rather than fantasy. It will impact not just this limerence gig but all parts of your life. Kudos to you!
Thanks Emily!
Update i Said previously i had 9 good days but the last 2 days. I have been withdrawing again. I was actually perfectly fine and even had a lecture coming up. I wasnt even nervous about seeing her in the lecture as I felt so good and thought my limerance was withdrawing but she didn’t show in the lecture and since that lecture I have been withdrawing once again. Today I walked by my old campus where most of the limersnce took place and I haven’t been to this campuss for over 11 months I did this deliberately to trigger my lim and also listend to a song that always triggers my limersnce. When I start to withdraw I lean into it completely my logic is it will speed up the withdrawal time by putting me more down but I feel like it’s just self toxic. ( what are people’s thoughts on this should you avoid triggers) My friend said she’s hasn’t showed up this semester either but he could be wrong. It’s very likely I won’t see her at all this semester as there is only 2 weeks left then I won’t see her until September which would be 9 months NC however the thought of not seeing her in the next 2 weeks is making me feel depressed despite it being good for meš damn this limerant brain.
“( what are peopleās thoughts on this should you avoid triggers)”
I tend to try and avoid triggers for the most part (NC for almost 11 months). Thankfully the actual physical location I worked with LO I don’t revisit often for my job anymore. Just a handful of times since she left. But that is a big trigger. That makes it very hard to avoid that trigger as it is part of my job. And the memories and ghosts in that building are hard to ignore if I have to go there.
Music on the other hand is very trying. Trying not to play songs that I found in my limerence that I didn’t know before I met LO is difficult not to listen to. And sometimes I do give in and it makes it worse. But even more difficult is music I knew long before having ever met LO or having limerence that intrusively remind me of her. It’s frustrating that music I already liked can trigger a low boost of limerence. So I have been trying to listen to genres of my music that I know LO didn’t like by her own admittance. Because I am almost always listening to music.
Other triggers are things like when I would bring donuts or kolaches to work in the morning because she liked them. I haven’t had either in the last year. And I can chow on some kolaches lol Or certain restaurants that she liked that we all ate lunch at a lot. I haven’t returned to any of them since either.
Giving in to the trigger is nice for a bit at the time. Because you get a slight high but then it is gone. And now you have to “start all over” in a way to get “clean” again from the limerence. The best description I have seen of limerence was by someone in this community who described it as “person addiction” because it is a drug and does get you addicted. And the glimmer is “the first time’s always free”.
Hf, does it help you to lean into your triggers? Most limerents avoid triggers when they go NC. Limerence is treated like an addiction and you wouldnāt tell an alcoholic to lean into their triggers. What you are doing sounds like exposure therapy. If itās working, go for it. If it isnāt helpful, try something different.
I have a question for the men. I have been training a lot with my SO lately and so he is in my training journal. I noticed that my LO is less likely to comment on activities that include my SO, but sometimes he will say something encouraging like āyou guys are doing great work!ā Or ācool that [SO] enjoys running with you.ā I noticed that the more my SO is in my training journal, the less contact I have with my LO. Maybe I am reading something into this that isnāt there. And maybe my behavior changed and I might be pushing my LO away. We are drifting apart fast. Iām curious about the male perspective on this.
I don’t like knowing about or talking about my LOs SO. plain and simple, I’m jealous of him. So the less I know about him or them together the better. It causes me stress. I bet your LO feels the same, so the more you are acknowledging your SO the more he may keep distance as a defense mechanism.
One thing that is interesting for me though is I would rather have my LO be married than single. It would seem like a whole new level of hell if I had to watch her date various men so in that regard I am glad she is married.
Thank you so much, Speedwagon. That helps a lot. Itās interesting, too because I actually like hearing about his wife and I want to believe that things are good for him at home. I care about him and I know he is better off if his home-life is healthy. I rarely feel jealous of his wife, but the thought of him around other women would definitely get under my skin.
I appreciate your perspective. It makes sense and I think youāre right. Iāll try to be more considerate of LOās feelings.
Iāve had a variety of experiences I can speak fromā¦
LO2 had a wonderful SO and I ended up being good friends with him. He treated her really well and they were a great couple. She never showed any signs that she was looking for a new mate, and there was nothing to fuel any rescue fantasies for me. Not surprisingly, that was my one LE that I actually handled correctly (never disclosed, intentionally limited contact until the limerence faded).
LO3 was single and actively dating, and it was horrible – she was on tinder and would tell me about her dates and the guys and Iād feel a lot of jealousy but just had to smile and listen since we were āfriendsā. And then sheād get all sad after her flings would end and Iād want to rescue her from her loneliness. That was the LE that I ended up disclosing to my SO partially in an attempt to relieve my own distress (which went very poorly)
My current LO has a sort-of partner who treats her poorly, and thatās always been a major fuel for my limerence with the rescue fantasies and whatnot. Actually, for the first 5 years I knew her, I assumed she was happily married – her telling me last year about her relationship problems and subsequent divorce was one of the big moments that transformed a mild office crush into a full blown LE.
My guess would be that as long as youāre posting positive stuff about your SO and pictures of you doing fun stuff together, thatās going to encourage your LO to keep his distance and may actually reduce his limerence. If you were indicating dissatisfaction with your SO it would probably have the opposite effect.
Thanks for helping me understand what might be happening, Lost in Space. I would love for the attraction to fizzle out and I hope to have an appropriate friendship with LO3 at the end of this phase. I feel like my limerence is fading fast and I am okay with it. I donāt feel panicked or sad. I feel fine. I am more present with my family, but not asā¦ how can I put thisā¦ adventurous. I am doing less excitement-seeking. My SO told me that he is worried about what will happen to my libido if I stop using limerence and fantasies. It is already sliding. Iām satisfied with once or twice a week now. My SO really enjoyed the horny Lovisa, but I settled down. Iām still an eager participant, but Iām doing less initiating lately. Oh well. I guess weāll see what happens the next time I talk to LO. Maybe for the sake of my SO and my LO I should stop talking about my SO in my journal even if he trains with me. I mean, I want this thing to fade, but Iām not sure that either of the men involved are ready to give up the benefits of this crazy social experiment. Itās something I will ponder. What a strange situation.
Thanks again. Your examples help me understand the male perspective. I appreciate you sharing!
@ Lovisa
“My SO told me that he is worried about what will happen to my libido if I stop using limerence and fantasies. It is already sliding.”
This is interesting – that the LE energy basically saves your marriage from the very common fate of sex becoming boring as discussed in Dr L’s recent article ‘Why does romantic attraction fade’ where he says “Romantic desire fades because our brains are built to habituate to predictable, repetitive rewards.”
Your LEs add novelty (to your mind) which then translates into real life in your marriage. But at such a cost (to you)!
Lovisa – my last comment was about how my various LOsā situations with SOs affected my limerence. Today I was thinking about the flip side of it – the times I have/havenāt used frequent mentions of my SO to modulate my limerent relationships.
I think I probably presented a confusing picture to LO3. On one hand, I was spending as much time with her as possible, being pretty flirtatious, texting with her at all hours, bringing her little gifts, basically all kinds of things that showed I was really into her. On the other hand, I talked about SO with her A LOT, always in a positive way (sometimes even more positive that I actually felt). It was my defense mechanism – I knew I was infatuated with someone inappropriate, I wasnāt controlling my behavior around her very well, but I made a point of frequently presenting the good points of my marriage and my SO to ultimately keep us in safe territory and to make sure to send the message that I wasnāt actually available or looking for an extramarital relationship. And I think it worked – LO3 seemed pretty interested in me for the first few months (although Iāll never know how much of it was in my head vs reality), and then after some time her attention definitely shifted to more appropriate people (single men).
I started out the same way with LO4, but then as my limerence got out of control, something changed. I pretty much stopped mentioning SO in my conversations with her. My pronouns changed from we/us to me/I. āI went on a hike this weekendā. āI saw this band in concert a couple years backā – stuff like that, basically writing SO out of my life when I talked with LO (sounds super crappy, right?) I think it was semi-conscious on my part – as my relationship with LO heated up, I sort of noticed that when we were talking and I mentioned SO, it kinda killed the mood and brought the energy level down. Mentioning SO seemed to make LO sad and made her pull back for a little while. And since I was so caught up in the emotion and the energy and craved more and more of it, Iā¦adapted. Without really making a conscious decision to do so, I mostly stopped ever mentioning SO when I was talking to LO. And I got the reward I was seeking – more limerent energy and emotional connection with LO.
A couple months after disclosure, when LO and I were forensically analyzing our relationship over the phone, I asked her about if sheād noticed the change. She told me she definitely had – that when we first started talking I mentioned SO a lot (in positive ways) and it made her sad because it signaled to her that I was unavailable. When I stopped mentioning SO, it enabled LO to start fantasizing more about a future for me and her, without reminders of my marriage to interfere with the fantasy.
So I guess all of this is to say that in my experience, frequent positive mentions of SO are a good protection against inappropriate relationships, and avoiding talking about SO (either intentionally or subconsciously) is a good fuel for mutual limerence and sends powerful signals to a perceptive LO that could lead to dangerous situations
Thanks Emily and Lost in Space. Your comments are helpful. I will be pondering them today. I was sad when I woke up this morning. My contact with LO3 has been minimal and I thought I was improving, then he reached out yesterday. He liked some of my activities and he posted an activity of his own. He didnāt leave comments and his journal entry was brief. He posted pictures which helped a little. My sadness wants me to lay around and eat junk food. I wonāt give in to it today, but I ate two ice cream sandwiches last night. Ugh!
I have another question for the men. Last week, I mentioned to my LO that I would like to ask him something. He said, āLet me know when youāre available to discuss that question.ā I said, āHow about Thursday while the kids are at school?ā Then I told him the two things I wanted to address which are both areas of expertise for him. I was using him as a consultant (I know itās kinda shameful). He ālikedā my questions, and ālikedā my suggestion about Thursday, but never told me if Thursday worked for his schedule. I didnāt know if him ālikingā the question was his way of agreeing to chat on Thursday. We never addressed my questions until he thoughtfully answered them this morning. I am curiousā¦ Was he agreeing to chat about the questions when he ālikedā them? Was the ball in my court after he liked them? All day Thursday, I expected a response from him, but nothing happened. I didnāt say anything about it because I felt like the ball was in his court and I didnāt want to pester him.
Thanks in advance, guys.
My impression of him saying he “liked” your questions means that he was okay with answering them at some point. Your questions didn’t offend him or that they were something he was unwilling to answer.
Now depending on the nature of the questions, his time frame in answering them, may just have been him giving them the proper amount of time to answer your questions honestly. He apparently didn’t take answering them lightly and took the time he needed.
But I do not think that he would have felt “pestered” by you following up with his response to your questions. I feel like he probably just would have told you he needed more time to get back to you. My impression of him from your speaking of him is he is a pretty laid back guy.
That’s hard to say…’liking’ something is such an ambiguous response sometimes and I can see how it left you in limbo. Based on your pretext, I think I would have expected you to make the initiation on Thursday. But I probably also would have made the initiation on Thursday after a bit if you didn’t first.
If it were me responding to you I would have wanted a specific plan like like an actual timeframe and who would call. But that’s me, I tend to need specifics. I don’t like ambiguity in relationships.
I think you guys are right. Thanks for your help. It hadnāt crossed my mind that LO3 could have been pondering my questions, but his response was so thought out and helpful, that he may have done exactly that. Thanks for pointing that out, Adam. And thanks for saying you donāt think he would feel pestered if I followed up. Youāre probably right. He is a laid back person for the most part.
You are right about the importance of being direct and predictable, Speedwagon. It sure helps everyone feel secure when they know what will happen and when it will happen. Perhaps āThursday during schoolā was too vague. I was expecting him to pick a time during that window, but since I was the initiator, I should have picked a time and then said something like, āBut I am flexible if that time doesnāt work for you.ā Lol, when he asked for a phone call, he said something specific like, āI am available from 11:30 to 12:30 and then after 1:30, can you chat during either of those times?ā I should follow his example. Iāll do better at being direct and predictable in the future. Itās something I should work on anyway. I am a very spontaneous person. When my kids were younger, I actually had our family scheduled to the minute. It was exhausting, but it was the only way I could keep up with a house full of young kids. I kind of gave up and mentally checked out after my son was arrested. Now Iām trying to find the balance between being scheduled and not taking it personally when things donāt work out. I have it in me to become a perfectionist, so I try not to take things too seriously because I donāt want to drive my loved ones nuts with my perfectionism. Maybe thatās just an excuse.
Thanks for helping me improve, guys! I appreciate your perspective. It helps so much.
I have a question. LO3 is hosting an event that I might attend with my SO. Hereās the thing, my SO and I are affectionate. We hold hands, I snuggle against him when we sit by each other, he strokes my back or arm or leg. I scratch his back with my long fingernails. Iāve been thinking that LO3 probably wouldnāt like to see that behavior, but I donāt know how to just not do it. Should I tell my SO in advance that maybe we should cool it with the public displays of affection at that event? Should I warn my LO that my SO and I are affectionate? Iām trying to be considerate of SOās and LO3ās feelings.
Thanks in advance!
If I were ever in the company of LO and my wife I would feel like I’d overcompensate my PTA with my wife if I was around LO. That’s just fueled by feelings of guilt with LO. I would want her to know that despite my limerence for you this is MY woman and you can’t do anything about it. Hands constantly on my wife.
I like your perspective, thanks Adam! That is helpful.
Lovisa – this sounds like a no-win situation. If you and SO act affectionate, itāll likely hurt LOās feelings. If you ask SO to cool it with the affection to protect the feelings of LO, youāll almost certainly hurt SOās feelings. I canāt imagine liking it if my wife asked me not to be affectionate with her for the sake of another man she had feelings for.
It also seems quite possible that youāll end up hurting both of them. For example, I hung out with my previous LO together with SO maybe a half dozen times, which was possible because there was no disclosure and we were ājust friendsā. I always made a point of being pretty affectionate with SO during those times, both to reassure SO and to send the message to LO that I really wasnāt available. BUTā¦ SO told me later that all of those hangouts were really painful for her, because I was leaking my feelings for LO so much and LO was acting warm and flirty with me, and it all just felt so threatening and disrespectful and painful to SO. She didnāt say anything at the time, but it definitely contributed to the deterioration of our marriage, and was something we ended up talking about a lot later in marriage counseling. I felt really ashamed later by how much Iād hurt SO in those situations, and by how blind Iād been to her feelings at the time.
Of course, your relationship with your SO is different than mine, but I just canāt imagine it would actually feel ok for him to watch you act warm and happy around your LO.
I think if I was in your shoes, Iād choose not to attend the event if possible. If I had to attend, Iād make sure to maintain my usual affection level with SO while consciously dialing down the warmth with LO a couple of notches. That might be painful for LO, but at the end of the day, whose feelings matter more?
Thank you, Lost in Space. I think you are right. I will find a way to get out of the event.
Hard situation but my initial reaction is this…since you have open communication about your LO/SO situation with both your SO and your LO then I feel like open honest communication might be best all around. First, I would discuss with SO whether or not attending is appropriate? Your first obligation is to SO and you need to gauge his comfort level with just being around LO. Second, I agree that I would not change your normal affectionate behavior with SO, but I would let LO know that you will both be at the event and that your affectionate behavior towards SO does not reflect any lesser feelings than what you have already expressed to LO. That’s the honest truth and since you already have this unique and somewhat weird relationship with LO you might as well just keep everything out in the open.
Wouldn’t LO be just as hurt though if you conveniently missed the event and he had to speculate why? If you and SO feel it’s not appropriate to go, tell LO that as well. That you don’t feel comfortable mixing him and SO together in your life.
I have a different take on this. But it depends whether you want to turn LO3 off. Go to the event. Be even more affectionate than usual. If LO3 has any sense of self-preservation he will see it, feel hurt, and begin to let you go.
When I felt things were getting out of hand I put my SO and LO in the same room. I’m not as touchy as you but I was my usual self toward my SO, warm, attentive. LO took it as the warning I meant it to be: I’m married. This is my SO. He is real. I am not leaving him.
I could be wrong (we often are about our LOs) but I could feel how hard it was for my LO. But it helped him let me go. Which (after some pain) helped me let him go.
I donāt know how I missed your comments, Speedwagon and OBNW. Thanks for your help. At this point, Iām going to avoid the event. It would be really easy to just not attend and it wouldnāt look suspicious.
Update:
Iām spending the day in bed because I fell while trail running, yesterday. I have two swollen lips and some cuts on my face. I havenāt been able to wash all the dirt out of my cuts, but Iāll keep trying because I donāt want scars. My knee has a tiny cut. The worst injury is that I hurt my right side and moving my arm is quite painful. I might need surgery to correct a cosmetic problem that resulted from the fall. The thought of surgery turns me into a coward. Anyway, I want to tell you some valuable lessons I learned.
My SO was with me when I tripped. He was so sweet and helpful. Seeing me injured was distressing for him, but he kept a positive attitude. I kept apologizing because I knew I would be out of commission at least for a few days and I hate that we will probably have to use our family resources to pay for me to get surgery. I really hate being a burden on my family. And it happened because I was running in the mountains where most people hike. I told my SO that I was irresponsible and selfish. Do you know what that wonderful man said? ā[Lovisa], you could have had the same fall walking to church. Stop being so hard on yourself. Youāll recover and youāll be back on the trails doing what you love in no time.ā Awww, I am so lucky to have him. He babied me all night and had a medical professional come to our house to check on me. I feel grateful for him. I feel grateful that many of my neighbors are medical professionals and they are so kind.
Another lesson was taught by my daughters. I have 2 teens, 1 young adult and an 8-year-old. All of them wanted to help so I gave them a list of the things I would be doing if I wasnāt in bed. It was a big list of important stuff that keeps our family running smoothly. Itās interesting because I often wonder what value I have. My SOās value is obvious because he has a good career and he takes such good care of us. I often wonder āwhat is my purpose? What do I contribute to society?ā Well, last night and today I had to communicate what my day looks like to someone else and I thought, āHoly cow, I do a lot. I hope my girls can keep up with all this. Thereās only four of them. How will they get all this done on time?ā It helped me feel like I have value.
And one more thing stood out to me. (Side note: my daughter just brought me a homemade āget well soonā card. Apparently, my 13-year-old was up all night worrying about me so she made me a card, awww). Back to the other lessonā¦When I was laying on the trail, my SO wanted to pick me up. I wouldnāt let him for a few reasons. First, it hurt too much and the thought of moving was not appealing. Second, I knew I had to prove to myself that I could handle a fall alone. It was nice having my SO with me, but if I didnāt get myself off that mountain, I would be afraid to go back out alone. So I picked myself up and it HURT! But I walked to the trailhead where my daughter had brought the car so I didnāt have to make the full trip home. I learned that I am strong and I can pick myself up when I fall. I learned that I am surrounded by people who want to help. I am so loved. I am full of gratitude.
What does this have to do with limerence? I recognize that limerence pales in comparison to a strong family. This is how I keep myself grounded. Moments like Iām experiencing with my family are so much better than anything that limerence can offer me. These relationships are irreplaceable. I couldnāt have this connection with anyone else and I know it.
(Oh boy, I just got another homemade card from my 8-year-old. She wants to cook me something. Awww, sheās bringing me a toasted bagel with butter and veggies on the side. So cute!)
Limerent highs canāt compete with the joy that I get from my family.
Lovisa- I love how many positive things you were able to take from what sounds like a pretty bad fall. Itās awesome that you were able to gain appreciation for yourself and all that you contribute to your family, as well as for your SO and your kids and how they are what truly matter in life. Just beautiful. Thank you for sharing this with us. And I hope you feel better soon and can get back to running in no time!
Sorry to hear about your fall Lovisa. But it sounds like your family is solid enough to be helpful and supportive while you recover. Thats a beautiful thing.
Family does mean more than anything limerence has to offer. God can use tragedy for good. Something I still strive to reflect on, believe it or not.
Get well soon!
Nothing like a good crisis to see who shows up for you!
Thanks Guys!
Update
I think my limerence faded and I am a genuine friend to LO3. I still recognize that he is an attractive man, but the obsession seems to be gone. I can focus on other things!
I am preparing to attempt a long run today (my first real run since my fall). I am completely self-motivated which I love. Iām not trying to impress anyone. Two things are motivating me: Iām curious to see if I can run without re-injuring myself and I know it will feel so good to be back out there. Iām so excited! Iām hopeful, too. I know my body might not be ready yet, but hopefully this will go well. Fingers crossed
I’m glad you are healed now – both of your injury and of the LE. Did you continue to see your LO or did you go NC? I’m currently in the “very sad, world is less bright, possibility of emotion rush has been stopped” phase but have to keep seeing my LO who is also struggling, though not with limerence, just attraction.
Your situation is difficult, C is for Cat, but you can be strong. Iām sorry youāre suffering.
I havenāt changed anything with my LO. We are training buddies. We are on a social media site where we are each otherās only contact. We post our training activities with a journal and pictures. We give each other feedback and encouragement. My SO thinks itās not a good idea for LO and I to train in-person because weāre both attracted to each other so we donāt see each other in person.
Can you describe how it feels to be over it, Lovisa? How did you know?
I like to hear you are self-motivated. It is freedom.
That is a great question. I feel secure and content. I can focus on less interesting things without a need to mentally escape. Sorry, that probably doesnāt make sense. Let me try again.
I came to LwL for two reasons: intrusive thoughts for LO2 were plaguing me and I was so attracted to another man that I feared I might do something stupid in a moment of weakness. I was desperate for help. But now I canāt even relate to those feelings. I donāt feel tempted to cheat and Iām not having intrusive thoughts about anyone.
Does that make sense?
Thanks Lovisa. That sounds like a sensible course of action. It’s the in-person bit that’s so hard isn’t it. I am much more rational when I’m on my own š
“But now I canāt even relate to those feelings. I donāt feel tempted to cheat and Iām not having intrusive thoughts about anyone.” – gosh, that is the absolute dream!
I feel so alive! I ran 16.45 miles and had 1,329 feet of elevation gain. I was actually lost, but I felt like I would run into a familiar trail or road eventually which I did. I had to face some intense heights which is hard for me so I used deep breathing and avoided looking at the ledge. It was amazing! I love running! I didnāt re-injure myself either, woohoo!
Update
My SO is thinking about upping his training and he might get a fancy running watch like mine. If he switches from Apple to Garmin, he will be my second connection on the app that I use to communicate with LO3. I have mixed feelings about this: I enjoy having a private space to communicate with LO3, but Iām excited for my SO to step up his game. Yesterday, I told LO3 so that he wonāt feel blindsided. It felt a break up, which is weird, but thatās how it felt. I actually cried a little. Yesterday was also an emotional day for other reasons. We are almost ready to put my Momās condo on the market. SO, my girls and I drove up there last night to empty out the garage. I cried a lot. I couldnāt help it. Iām crying just thinking about it. I miss my Mom, but sheās still here. Dementia is so hard to cope with. I wish my girls could have known what an amazing woman my mom was before the dementia got bad. She was so strong. She raised her brothers when she was growing up. She raised five kids alone after my dad got limerence for his boss and left us. She remarried a good man when I (her youngest) was in high school. They only had four good years together because he had a massive stroke and she took care of him for twenty years. She is incredible, but my kids are too young to have seen her when she was healthy. Anyway, I can cry all I want about my mom or LO because my family just assumes I am mourning, which I am.
Last night something cute happened as a result of my uncontrollable tears. My eight-year-old hugged me. Then my SO saw and said, āCome here girls, itās time for a Mommy sandwich.ā He joined the hug and my eight-year old was between us. My eight-year-old said, āIām the cheese!ā My 13-year-old is black fyi, she hugged behind me and said, āIām the chocolate chips!ā Then the 14-year-old was behind her. SO and the 14-year-old were the bread. My SO asked, āIf you are the cheese, and you are the chocolate chips, what is Mommy?ā The chocolate chips said, āSheās the mayonnaise!ā And we all laughed. We make a funny family sandwich.
Anyway, a lot of you mentioned yesterday how you have to hide your tears from your family. I am so blessed because I can break down any time and everyone is just loving towards me. If they ask why Iām crying, I can say, āIām mourning.ā And they understand. I feel really lucky. But to be honest, my tears are for my family much more than my LO. My siblings are fighting and it is breaking my heart because I love them all so much. End of life care for a parent is really hard and painful.
Miss Lovisa
You can’t be the mayonnaise, because I like you but I don’t like mayo. Maybe you could be the horseradish because you’re spicy. š Either way what a nice family moment. It is nice to have those.
My son came to me yesterday evening when I was out on the porch listening to music to ask me something birds and bees related. He wanted a man’s perspective on it and he felt comfortable to ask me. That was a good father/son moment for me.
I think you have mentioned it before, about your mother and I just don’t remember, but let me say again I am sorry for what your mother and you and your family are going through. My maternal grandfather passed away before I could even remember, I was so young. So my maternal grandmother stayed with us. I remember my grandmother was never the same after grandfather died. Mentally she was just a husk. She rarely spoke and for the most part seemed to just be waiting for death. I know it must have been very hard on my mother to see that. Her father died very young and then to watch your mother just waiting to check out.
I’ve only ever cried about LO one time in front of my wife. Thankfully the boys were elsewhere because they would ask why since they see me cry so few times. But I have never been a public crier about anything. I always hold it in until I am by myself. I’ve always been that way.
As far as your LO and SO goes, I at first was uneasy about my wife coming here to post. Or well at first her telling me she started reading my posts. I thought the same as you. But as things moved on I found it helpful for me to see the bias my limerence has given me about LO. My wife telling me about reading some of my older posts helped me to push past feeling like that and really “owning” my words and actions about LO. “I said that?” with disbelief. I said that a lot when she first came here. I think that might work with you too Miss Lovisa. Knowing your husband might be reading what you post might help you to keep your conversations with LO just friendly until that just becomes a natural thing to do. Just my two cents.
Lol, Adam thatās cute. Horseradish it is!
I love that your son can talk to you about the birds and bees. That is a success! Are things going well with his lady friend?
I think you are right that it will be nice to have my SO supervising my conversations with my LO. I feel like I should review our past conversations to remove anything that could appear to be flirting. I havenāt found anything concerning, yet. Speedwagonās advice to cut back on the flirting a few months ago was really helpful. I cut back and LO followed my lead. I think when I get to our older conversations, Iāll find some flirting. Maybe not. Maybe it wasnāt as bad as I thought. Sometimes I feel guilty for things and I think they are a big deal but other people think itās not a big deal. Kind of like the spiders. Oh, speaking of the spidersā¦
They were wolf spiders. There were between 10 and 20 of them on a narrow trail about 3 feet long. I couldnāt avoid stepping on them or right next to them and there was a cliff on one side of the trail and a mountain on the other side of the trail. It was late and it was the only way to get home. Ugh! That is why I overreacted. But Iāve thought about it. They were in their home. I was the intruder. And I have to get brave for stuff like that because I will be trail running at night during my 50-mile race. Itās in the desert so I could encounter a spider or scorpion or snake. I have to be brave about it. Iām not going to let fear hold me back. Well, that was quite a tangent. Anyway. Your reply was adorable, thank you.
” Are things going well with his lady friend?”
Yes. In fact the question he had was about a birth control she was going to try and if it would be safe to not use condoms if she used that. We ended up talking about children and they both seem to agree if they decide to have children of their own, they are going to adopt a boy or girl. So they are already making plans to be a family. Last I asked they both agreed that concentrating on college is what’s best for them both and then after they finish college make plans to get married. They have been together about a year now, I think. They go to the same college together. So it seems that it is pretty serious. And after the way his ex-gf dumped him and the heartbreak that went with that, I think that will be good for them to wait too. He was with his ex for almost two years and they made plans like that too, so I hope he remains cautious. But I get a really good vibe from this young lady.
Lovisa,
Hello. I just wanted to drop in to let you know that I am thinking about you and sending lots of love. It is really hard when a parent is ill or has dementia. I remember the first time I was in a position to be a caretaker for my parents. In some ways, I was happy that I am a responsible adult and able to take on that role… but also the child in me felt like- Nooooo- I don’t want to take care of the person who has always been my rock.
In terms of your LO, I am going to remind you of some things you already know! Limerence rears its ugly head when things are tough and stressful. I know that I can be doing fine and then when the s*** hits the fan or I am just unhappy I yearn for my LO. I think a big piece of it is the mood regulation and the distraction. For me, the mood regulation is huge. But I will remind you that these are fleeting highs. The giddiness of communicating with your LO is not the same as the solid support, love and attention of your SO. Your SO is so lovely!
None the less, I am sorry for your “break-up.” I completely understand. It is so painful. I think you are doing just the right thing by acknowledging how much it hurts, crying, letting your family comfort you, and reaching out to LWL. Just remember, it is going to get better. These horrible feelings are going to fade.
Here are some observations about you-
1. You are kind and attentive to everyone. It is pretty impressive that you give so much of your time commenting back to people on this site. It shows how much you value the well being of others.
2. You are not judgmental. It seems like you are always open to hearing about other peoples experiences and lives- even when they are different than yours.
3. You are passionate about your family. I get the impression that you are committed to giving your child and husband the best life possible. Aren’t they the lucky ones. (I personally love the stories about your kids! Mayonnaise, cheese, chocolate sandwich indeed!)
4. You aren’t just a great athlete, you get excited and want to share that passion with others. I see a real purpose in the way you interact with world through running and other sports. It is very inspiring.
5. You apologize when you make a mistake. If only all adults had this skill!
I know this is a hard time- I hope this list puts a smile on your face. Keep reaching out!
Wow Summer, I am speechless. Thank you so much!
Hi Lovisa,
Yay! I am very glad your SO spoiled you for your birthday! You deserve it. I bet it made your husband feel all warm and fuzzy to get to be so loving to you and make you happy. I love spoiling my husband- especially for his birthday!
I have a thought about your LO3. One thing I wonder about is do you really know how strong his feelings for you are? It seems like he put up some good boundaries in the past and has been “playing it cool” since he admitted he has feelings (maybe I’m not getting the words right?) My concern is that your limerence for him is waning (I see this as a good thing!) but what if his is not? What if he still feels really strongly for you and is suffering for it? If that is the case (and you would know better than me) does that change how you feel about the situation? Would it change your actions at all?
When my LO disclosed his feeling for me- (the only way I can describe his feelings is years long limerence) and I rejected him- he said he never wanted to hear from me again. Basically, he said it was too painful to be in touch especially with everything out in the open. I was (and still kind of am) devastated by that- but it really helps me to remain NC with him. When I have the urge to reach out I remind myself that I am acting selfishly. I also know that I do not want an EA with him and can never just be friends with him, so it is helpful.
I feel like your limerence is so different than my experience, so I am curious about your thoughts.
Meanwhile, I have many ex-boyfriends- at last 4 serious exs and many more that I dated for a while. My husband is the same. We both lived with our exs. I think it has been great thing, in general, for our relationship. By the time we got together we knew what we wanted in a relationship. Now… granted my LO is an ex… but we had been out of touch for a very long time and got back in touch under absolutely crazy circumstances.
I don’t know. I’m on really good terms with a number of my exs and their wives. Definitely not cookie dough for me.
Hiking continues to be spectacular. We took a break today and went to some great art galleries and did some rock climbing. Gearing up for my first 14er. I’m so excited! We are hoping the snow melts a little bit more before we head out… and we have a long list of hikes to do before anyway. My body is sore and happy.
Hi Summer, I canāt wait to hear about your 14er. Is this a two-week trip? Iām so happy for you and your hubby.
My LO says heās never felt this attracted to anyone. He also said that he wants to remain friends and so he is willing to live with his feelings of attraction and behave appropriately towards me. He has lived up to that standard quite well.
He just left me some messages on our app. He also just finished a 7-mile run. I suspect he is limiting contact with me to his training days. He doesnāt even use his watch for some of his training like basketball and hiking so I will probably only hear from him when he runs or strength trains. He isnāt training for anything specific right now either. I guess I have to accept that our conversations will not be what they used to be. Here is the thing, he owns a residential addiction recovery program. He has skills to deal with person addiction. He also has incredible relationship skills. He and I are both trained to be therapeutic mentors for at-risk youth. We both use our skills on each other. They just leak out of us. I think thatās why weāre drawn to each other. Anyway, he said that he can ākeep things in perspective most of the time.ā But he lets himself get ādreamyā about me sometimes and that distracts him from other things. He is good at disciplining himself so I suspect that he has goals and boundaries to keep this relationship in check that I donāt know about. He told me that he wants to protect both of us and our marriages.
We have a huge advantage. We were raised in the same conservative church and we had to learn how to handle our big feelings for romantic partners without acting on them. We are pretty much doing the same thing now. Our church doesnāt condemn people for their thoughts or feelings. Itās okay to feel something that doesnāt line up with your values. Weāre encouraged to do things that line up with our values regardless of how we feel.
Your story just got more interesting. It sounds like you lived with multiple SOs before marrying your husband. Now Iām curious. Only share what you are comfortable sharing, but were each of those relationships heading towards marriage? How long have you and SO been married? How long did you live with LO and what caused the split?
If I understand right, your LO wants all or none of you and you arenāt willing to leave your SO. Since LO canāt have all of you, he went NC. Wow. I think you are doing the right thing. Stay strong for your family. Even if thoughts of LO haunt you forever, at least you can be proud that you are doing the right thing.
Update
LO has been distant since I told him that my SO might join us on our app. When he engages, he is very warm. He is his normal self. But he isnāt engaging very much. He also did a twenty-mile training run the day after our ābreak-upā which he never does. I canāt remember him doing more than 18 miles in a training run. He wouldnāt tell me why he did it either. Anyway, I figured out how to see if he has been in the app without saying anything to me. He is there at least four times every day: morning, night, at least once during the night and at least once during the day. One day he was on there eight times during the day. That was the most Iāve seen from him. Itās nice to know heās there, but I wish he would say something. Well, I have mixed feelings about it. I feel like the limerence is mostly gone. I like that I can be more present. I donāt want to part ways from LO3, but if I must I must. I donāt think Iāll ever stop caring about him. Oh, there is something Iām curious about. My last two runs included my family so they are in the pictures on the app. Iāve wondered how LO might feel about seeing me with my happy family. The pictures are cute and full of smiling faces. Maybe that bugs him. Maybe he would like me more if I were a damsel in distress. I donāt know. Itās interesting to me because I tell myself that he has a good home life and his wife takes good care of him. I want to believe that his needs are being met. I donāt actually know about his home life. He rarely talks about his family. I just want to believe that they are happy.
My SO is incredible as always. He turned my birthday into a week-long celebration. He has been spoiling me even more than usual which is saying a lot. He has become a fantastic running companion! Iām faster on the incline and he is faster on the decline so we give each other just the right amount of push. I love running with him. He is self-motivated, too. He summited the mountain behind our house just because he felt like it. He checked two trails that I havenāt checked yet this season. One of them has water crossing and snow crossing so Iāll wait a little longer before I use that trail alone. The other trail I refuse to do ever. It comes down the face of the mountain. It is crazy steep. Iāve gone up it about half a mile and turned around. It was awful. I am impressed that my SO did it. He didnāt like it either, but at least he did it. Iām so impressed with his progress!
I think LO2 is mad at me. I had an engineering question which I posted to our group text. His friend never replied which is not like him at all. LO2 just answered the question. He wasnāt cold or anything, but he didnāt continue the conversation. Maybe I shouldnāt have told him that I transferred my limerence. I donāt know, maybe he was just busy.
Iām curious about something that Adam said in a different post. He had a girlfriend before Momma. He regrets that he wasted time and energy on her because the relationship didnāt go anywhere. (I donāt remember how Adam worded it). Is that how men feel about relationships with women? They donāt want to invest in the relationship if it only leads to friendship? Iām just curious. Maybe itās like my relationship with cookie dough. I donāt want it around because it takes too much effort to control myself around it. Itās easier if the cookie dough never enters my environment. I definitely wouldnāt want to be āfriendsā with it. Maybe Iām wrong.
If your LOs limerence is anything like mine, then he will hate seeing or knowing about your husband. I much prefer just thinking that my LO is miserable with her SO and views me as the better man in her life. Her talking fondly of him or posting pics of them together just make me jealous. So I avoid it all. About 2 weeks back LO texted me a selfie pic of her and SO at a wedding together because we had talked about her going earlier that day. It ruined me the rest of weekend seeing her and him smiling together. I deleted the pic.
Such is the dark side of limerence.
My guess…yes, it bothers him.
Thanks Speedwagon, that makes sense. I appreciate that you shared the male perspective.
I remember first finding LO’s Facebook page and I was looking through her pictures and family pictures and seeing a picture of her and her ex and completely ruining my mood. Now I had a face to the man that cheated on her and ruined their marriage.
However once I was certain that her gentleman friend was indeed a good man and cared for LO and her daughters and was capable of being the man they needed in their life, I oddly (at least at that time) felt happy for them. I could see it in his words and actions; he cared for her daughters as if they were biologically his own. And according to LO that was more than their actual biological father did. Sure I could have put food on the table and a roof over their heads, that’s not difficult as a man. But he could do more than that. More than I could have even if I were single and available. I partly let go of that fantasy eventually. Seeing them together and realizing that he would be good to them.
I wasn’t always that way. When my other female co-worker accidentally mentioned that LO was seeing someone I was immediately aggressive. I didn’t know him. I didn’t trust him. I didn’t want him to hurt her after what she had been through. I didn’t want her heart hurt again. I was always on edge when he would come visit her at work. My co-workers would mention I was jealous. But I would assure them it wasn’t that. I just had to know he was good for her and her daughters.
I can’t imagine how bad the limerence and rumination would still be if LO had never met him. If she remained available how bad it would have been for me. I feel like he unknowingly helped with my limerence. Because in the end I knew in my heart of hearts even in limerence that all I wanted is what was best for LO. It’s the only thing that helps me maintain NC.
Thanks Adam, I hoped you would offer your perspective. It sounds like seeing LO with an SO is fine as long as her SO is good for her. That helps, thanks.
Lovisa, happy birthday! Glad to hear you had such a great week, and as always I love hearing about how well things are going with you and your SO, it’s so inspiring š
Regarding your LOs, I think you’ve been busy playing all of our favorite game, called “guess what LO is thinking”, complete with lots of time and energy spent trying to decipher meaning from the smallest of clues in the tone, frequency and context of their interactions. Question – if you’re worried about how your LOs are feeling about things with you, can you just ask them? Are your relationships with both of them at a place right now where you can just ask directly rather than play the obsessive limerence game? I think that all of the guessing and overanalyzing is just part of the obsessiveness that you’re trying to get away from, no?
I don’t feel that any of my past relationships with anyone, male or female, acquaintance or friend or partner or LO, was wasted time, because every relationship I’ve had has taught me something and led me to grow in some way or another. It’s like the Nelson Mandela quote: “I don’t lose – either I win or I learn”. I believe in going through life with the mindset that even our most difficult experiences are there to teach us important things and help us grow – cultivating this mindset is a powerful antidote against living with regret.
Of course, just because I don’t regret any of my past relationships doesn’t mean that some of them didn’t need to end! I only had one serious girlfriend before I met SO – we dated for a couple of years when I was 19 to 21. I was young, wild and naĆÆve; she was a few years older, more experienced, and had different goals. She also had some traits I’d consider toxic (she manipulated people, and made my head spin with lies), and I know that I wasn’t a good partner to her either. It was very good that our relationship ended when it did, before marriage or children came into the picture. Still, I learned and grew tremendously from my time with her, and while I haven’t had any contact with her in 20+ years and don’t ever wish to, I do appreciate the time we spent together as an important formative period in my life, and I hope that she’s doing well somewhere out there.
Similarly, all of my LOs have been important people in my life who have taught me a lot as well. For a simple example, LO3 was an avid reader who introduced me to a lot of new authors from different cultures, and reawakened my love of reading good novels. She also introduced me to a lot of good music I didn’t know (one of the advantages of having an LO from a different generation). She also pushed me to be better at what I do for a living, in a very positive way. LO2 was one of my constant companions during my long and difficult medical training, and was a major influence in shaping my values and career path – she made me better in so many ways. LO1 brought a lot of creativity out of me and helped me to explore the world around me when we were pretty young and seeking. LO4 … still too soon to say what the ultimate effects of my relationship with her will be, but I’d say she’s definitely brought out a lot of creativity, passion, romanticism, and tenderness that had become kind of dulled over the years and after some tragedies – even if she can’t be the main recipient of those gifts in the long term, she’s awakened them in me for sure.
Finally, I’d say I definitely don’t feel that a relationship with a woman is worthless if it “only” leads to friendship. Friendship is a beautiful thing all by itself, and I’ve had many rewarding friendships with women that were appropriate and didn’t involve limerence or sex or romance. I actually really wish that I could somehow rewire my brain to ONLY find my SO attractive so that I could more safely enjoy friendships with other women without having to worry about developing other feelings that could mess everything up.
You are correct, Lost in Space, I am playing āguess what LO is thinking.ā Thank you for pointing it out. Also, thank you for saying that none of your relationships were a waist of time or energy because you learned from all of them. That is how I feel about relationships, too. I wondered if men had a different view. It sounds like they value friendship just as much as I do.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Btw, you startled me when you mentioned a hotel room with Lost and Confused. Iām glad you werenāt serious.
Also, I want to warn you about something. I already figured out where you live based on the hints you dropped when you were new on LwL. Here is some unsolicited adviceā¦ donāt tell us how you placed in a race. Those results are published online and are easily retrieved. Do you see where Iām going with this? I donāt want you to accidentally reveal your identity on LwL. Youāve been dropping a lot of hints lately. Just consider this a warning from someone who cares. I hope it doesnāt come across as creepy.
“I wondered if men had a different view. It sounds like they value friendship just as much as I do.”
Miss Lovisa
I got to thinking about something yesterday. And now that you say this I guess I am going to share it.
The more I think on it, the more I think that I might have been limerent before. And I also started linking similar behaviors between LO and a young lady I tried to court in my early 20’s before meeting Momma.
The compulsive and obsessive behavior to get her attention. To be around her. To talk to her, for her to notice me. The buying of gifts in hopes it will get me more attention. (That last one went through the roof as I, unlike with LO, was available and she was too.) But just the overall compulsion of her reminds me of LO.
And it gets even stranger. LO’s personality reminds me of her. A very laid back, overall soft speaking and quaint woman. Very kind and generous with her words. (I think both of them felt a bit of, I don’t want to say pity, but felt gracious in dealing with, in the end with both of them, someone that did not interest them in that capacity.) Very hard working, determined and strong willed women. Both didn’t need no man lol I have no idea with her if she ever found someone as I lost contact when I moved. But hopefully somewhere she is happy with someone.
They even looked a like. Same build and height more or less. Both very pretty women. Both dressed fairly similar. Not totally feminine but bordering on that. Formal but still casual. Both had pretty long hair.
So to answer your question, if I was indeed limerent for this young woman way back then and still fell limerent for LO than I guess no, I didn’t learn from my past relationship. And in general I don’t think I do because I let people in and then they leave. By now I should know to stop letting people in. Try to keep more people at arm’s length. It seems less painful that way.
Lovisa,
āI wondered if men had a different view. It sounds like they value friendship just as much as I doā
Iād say some men do, some men donāt. Weāre a pretty big group made up of a lot of unique individuals. I can only speak for one man, not all.
And yes, good call about race results – Iāve actually had that same thought in the past! In fact, when I posted about my last half marathon, I may have waited some amount of time before posting it so it wouldnāt be possible to guess which race Iād run. But you are right that Iāve been probably feeling a bit too comfortable sharing about myself here recently and need to be careful – thank you for watching out for me š
Oh stop it, Adam, you are not going to keep people at arms length. Let them in. You are a kind-hearted man. Donāt pretend to be someone you are not.
Thanks for sharing your experience with the lady who may have been your first LO.
Hi Lovisa,
I am watching the moon in the sky (it’s morning here.) Can you see it from where you are too? So pretty! I wish I could send you a picture.
We are out West for a month. We are vacationing for three weeks and working remotely for the last week. Even when we are working we can still get out for long hikes because of the time difference. My husband and I do a big trip with just the two of us during the summer when our kids are at their grandparents or camp. I am super grateful to have this time alone with him.
Comments on your thoughts about your LO-
Here’s the thing, Lovisa- and I think you experience limerence differently than most people. It seems like it mainly energizes and inspires you. I know you miss your LOs and feel anxiety when they don’t write- but I get the impression that your lows are not as low as they are for others. This is one of the reasons why I think you are able to juggle limerence without it feeling like it is ruining your life. (I am correct about this? Please tell me otherwise if I am wrong!) I remember when I first came to this site I couldn’t relate to your advice because our experiences felt different. While my LE was full of excitement and energy- I was a MESS emotionally. I was in constant fear that my SO would find out and be heartbroken. I felt completely out of control- even though from the outside I didn’t seem that way. I engaged in behavior that deeply went against my moral code. Now, I am not an addictive person by nature. I am generally a very together person who balances many responsibilities on a daily basis. Limerence made me feel INSANE- and it was horrible.
Ok- this is where I am going with all this- I think there is a pretty good likelihood that your LO 3 feels similarly to me. I know you said, “He is good at disciplining himself so I suspect that he has goals and boundaries to keep this relationship in check” but that doesn’t mean he isn’t in turmoil inside. I think you need either have another talk with him about his feelings or assume that he is struggling with his limerence. You are such a kind and generous person- if my assumption is correct- I know you wouldn’t want to hurt your LO.
As for my life story- we are just so different- you and I. Although I still maintain we would be great friends in real life! Now I know this is just semantics- but I would say I have only ever had one SO- my husband. We have been married for close to twenty years. Although I did have serious boyfriends before we dated, the depth of the relationship I have with my husband could never compare. When you have children with and co-parent, comfort each other over the death of a parent, know when someone is upset just by the way they squint their eyes- hell- clean up their vomit when they have the stomach bug- There is only one person on earth who I have had a relationship that is as important to me as my SO. My marriage is more meaningful than any other relationship I have ever had. Also- I am very, very, very attracted physically to my husband. We have amazing chemistry. (I know you can relate.)
But… I also had great relationships before I married. I was raised with the idea that I was going to build my career when I was younger and date (or sleep with) as many people as I wanted to. I think my husband was raised with similar values. I lived with one boyfriend (not my LO) and seriously dated a number of other men. I thought that some of those relationships might lead to marriage- others were just people who I enjoyed spending time with. I had limerent feelings for probably three of the men I was with. In all cases, that turned to feelings of love and just normal relationship feelings once we dated.
My LO was the last man I dated before I met my husband. (Actually, I was friends with my husband but we were both in relationships so it took a while before we were both single at the same time!) My relationship with my LO was pure fire. We were completely unstable as a couple. We would have insane fights and then fantastic make-up sex. It was NOT a healthy relationship. We talked about getting married but knowing what it takes to actually be married- I now know we never would have made it as a couple. It was a very important relationship in my life because it taught me what I didn’t want in a spouse. (Enter my husband who has all the fire and none of the combustion.)
My LO has done amazing things in his life. There are a number of articles about him on the internet, and he is successful beyond successful. He is charismatic and frighteningly intelligent in some areas (not so much emotional intelligence.) I don’t believe in soul mates, but I do think there is something about my LO that draws me to him. I can not imagine a world where I would not be obsessed with him on some level if we are in contact. I know he feels that same for me. Something about our personalities draw us together.
Anyway- eventually he became too mean for me to handle (this is when we dated). We had broken up, gotten back together many times, but I finally called it quits. Even though he had many women in his life (he is that type of person) he tried to get back together with me for years. Then we both got married and had kids. I didn’t hear from him during all that time.
Fast forward to today. I don’t want to get into how we became reconnected with each other. All I can say it was very unexpected (and traumatic) for both of us. I would honestly say, neither one of us was at fault for becoming reconnected.
In the years that had past he had both grown up and was still the same. He has a wonderful marriage and fantastic children. Like me, he has led a happy, contented life. I actually don’t think he wanted all or nothing. I think when his feelings were out in the open it became too painful to be in touch. I also think he was very afraid he would jeopardize his marriage. There really is no way forward for us to be in contact. I feel strongly that emotional affairs are as wrong as physical affairs. Talking with him would just lead to pain and destruction, so it is very important that I stay strong with NC.
I actually think over time I will not feel limerent about him. I don’t think I will be obsessed forever. Already, I feel much better than I did when we first went NC. I feel calmer. I don’t need to feel like I am hiding anything from my husband. Writing all this to you also helps. It helps to talk about my feelings.
Ok- we are off for yoga, a hike and dinner at one of my favorite restaurants! Thank you for listening, Lovisa. You are a huge support.
Summer, your vacation sounds heavenly. A month away from your kids? Wow, that sounds wonderful.
Thanks for sharing your story. After reading it, I have a feeling you will always have feelings for your LO. They might go dormant, but I suspect it wouldnāt take much to rekindle the flame. Itās nice that he is successful. I hope it isnāt a daily reminder for you. When my LO1ās art became popular, I had regular reminders of him. I still had feelings for him, but wanted nothing to do with him. I would be driving my minivan full of kids and something would come on the radio that relates to him and it would knock the breath out of me. My body physically reacted to reminders of him. Also, my kids were fans of his work so they talked about him, too. Ugh! I hope your LOās success isnāt something you have to think about. I hope you are able to keep him out of your thoughts.
Maybe you are right, maybe I do experience limerence differently. When I started feeling limerent for LO2, it was pure euphoria. I loved thinking about him. It wasnāt sexual, just everyday stuff. I would imagine he was with me and making comments about what ever I did. I imagined him giving me advice. At the same time, I was texting with him throughout the day. Things took a dark turn when both of us realized that we were attracted to each other. We both went cold in an effort to protect our marriages. I had no intention of leaving my husband, but I sensed that he would have left his wife to be with me. Also, he thought we were soulmates. Ugh! I hate the idea of soulmates. Iām sad that people believe itās a thing. Anyway, when we went cold, all of my thoughts of him became painful. My mind wouldnāt stop thinking of him. It was constant. I couldnāt focus on anything else. I was a miserable mess. I tried the methods for deprogramming except for transference because I thought it was unethical. But when nothing else worked, I transferred my limerence to LO3. Transference was a lot easier and more effective than I expected. I had learned my lesson not to think about LO3 a lot. I found other things to obsess about so that I wouldnāt obsess about him. It seems to work. I have wondered many times if I could call my attraction to LO3 limerence. Iām not convinced that it is limerence. I definitely donāt feel limerent or even attraction for LO2 anymore. Maybe I replaced limerence for a crush. I donāt know. There have been moments where I was overwhelmed by my feelings for LO3, but it was brief each time. I just donāt know if this is limerence. It is much nicer than the last experience. Anyway, I realize that LO3 could be miserable. I donāt want to hurt him. I try to conduct myself in a way that will minimize any discomfort, but of course, I donāt know how to do that. Maybe we should have a conversation. Thanks for addressing this with me.
I hope you feel relaxed after yoga and I hope your hike is beautiful.
Hi Lovisa-
Quick hiking update and then some thoughts about your post. We did about 15 miles today and 3,000 ft. BUT the 3,000 was over about 2-3 miles. I was huffing and puffing! The trail was super loose and slippery. We had poles so it was fine- BUT the crazy thing is that we ran into all these trail runners that were going down when we were going up. I don’t know how you crazy people do it- but I am very impressed. My husband is a big trail runner and he thought it would be pretty slippery. He has done a bunch of the trails around there but not that one. Anyway, at the top the last 1/4 mile was an exposed rock slide. It was super windy and cold. We needed hats, gloves and all the layers. Brrr. I did have a moment of panic but was able to hike through it. The view was unreal. I was psyched to get to the top but we booked it down because we didn’t want to get caught in any weather. We stopped at a diner and got peach cobbler. Basically, the perfect day.
Here are my thoughts on your post. First of all- I completely take back what I said about your limerence being different. The way you describe you LO2 is basically how I felt. It does sound like LO3 is different. I think you were at a cross roads when you disclosed to your husband and things have slowly been taking a different path. I wonder if in a few years you will even have limerent feelings. It makes sense that you are still feeling sad over the gradual goodbye from LO3. We both know from experience that these things take a long time and flair up. However, if I look at your story from a distance it really seems like you are just on the right path and having normal feelings that go along with healing. You know when you cut yourself and it is itchy once the skin starts to scab? I think you are in the itchy stage with limerence. It’s there. Sometimes you are very aware of it, but a lot of the time you don’t notice.
As far as LO3… I feel for him. I really do. At the end of the day, you aren’t going to be able to fix this problem for him. I don’t know if it is a good idea to have a conversation. It might be, or it might make sense to let some time and distance pass and see how you are both feeling. What do you think? Are there any females you could text (be on the app, etc.) with about training? If I was in your shoes, that’s what I would probably do.
As far as my LO- yes. I 100 billion percent agree that if we are ever in contact again everything will flair up! All the more reason to stay NC!!!
Without giving away too many details- he came up with a technology when he was relatively young that is used in smart phones. It’s a big deal. He isn’t famous to normal people, but most people in the tech world know him. There is more to the story after he cashed out (his invention made him instant millionaire)- but I don’t want to get into it because it would reveal who he is. Basically, if I were to google him I could find out a lot of information. He is also the keynote speaker to conferences and things like that- which are all online. Luckily, I can avoid his presence on the internet if I choose to. Sometimes I want to look him up, but I always remind myself that it is a bad idea! I lump no internet in with NC.
One thing that attracted me to him was his ability to imagine things humans would need. He just had this vision about how the world could be different and then figured out a way to make his vision happen. I don’t think like that. In fact, I think most people don’t think like that. It is one of the things that made him special to me… Anyway… having him in my life ruins my life so it isn’t worth it to reminisce about any of this. I just wanted to give you a few more details.
I have a guess at who your LO1 might be- but I would never say it on this site. It’s just fun to think about.
Final questions- what are you getting out of limerence these days? Are there still positives? Is it mixed up with your feelings about your mom and siblings? Do you want to talk more about that? Family dynamics are tricky!
Ok- I am off to cook some dinner! I hope you got a good run in today. š
Lol, those trail runners are crazy! I struggle to run down steep, slippery slopes. It is my weakness. Iāve seen men run down stuff that Iām carefully navigating and it blows my mind every time. Iāve never seen an adult female do it, but one of my daughters is good at fast downhill. The whole time I am fighting the āIām going to slip!ā sensation. LO3 cruises downhill. Itās fun to watch. You guys encountered some cold temperatures, hmm that sounds neat. The mountain near me that still has snow hasnāt opened yet due to avalanche risks, so we havenāt had that experience yet. I get spooked by winds at the summit. Iām glad you guys were safe. You tackled some steep uphill today, nice work! Your adventures are so exciting! Thank you for sharing.
Iāve been thinking a lot about what you said about me having a conversation with my LO3. I think it would be an opportunity for both of us to be vulnerable and that is what draws me to him. When he opens up, I get hooked. I think itās best if I let him wrestle with his own feelings. Of course I will be there for him if he wants to talk, but I donāt think I should bring it up. Whenever we have ādefine the relationshipā conversations, I feel close to him and I crave more closeness.
I think Iām finished with this phase of my life. I think I learned what I needed and I can move on. I still have friendships with LO2 and LO3, and my marriage is strong. Yay.
Your LO sounds fascinating! Iām so glad you donāt have to see his art (I use that word because I donāt want to reveal what kind of work my LO1 creates) anyway, Iām glad you donāt have to encounter his work through media or at the grocery store. Seriously, I couldnāt get away from LO1 for a while and I was so frustrated. I think you are wise not to google your LO. Stay strong!
Happy trails!
Hi Lovisa,
Yes! The trail runners are CRAZY! But… also really cool. We did see a women running down. She was probably in your 20s and all muscle. She was running with poles, which seemed like a wise idea. We saw a bunch of young guys running down too. They were so polite. We always move off the trail to let them pass, and they were like, “thank you, thank you.” I’m like- if you are running you automatically get the right of way.š
There is a lot of snow at the top of the many of the trails we have done. So far we haven’t need to use cramp-ons, but I have definitely post-holed (fall through the snow) a few times. Mainly, it is funny when it happens, although I did get a wet sock one time.
My friend lives out in your state, and their ski season is longer than where I am- so it makes sense that you might still have more snow. It might have to do with the elevation?
“I think itās best if I let him wrestle with his own feelings.” I think you are right about that. The more of a clean break the better, although I guess in your case it would be impossible to have a full break.
Did you read Dr. L’s most recent post? It resonated with me. One thing I have been thinking about is how we can have multiple stories about ourselves at once. One problem I see on this website is that people cast themselves as both the dutiful spouse and the lovestruck limerant at the same time. I think there is this idea that the roles cancel each other out. Like as long as you are a good spouse, you can enjoy your LE. There was a time when I probably would have said that about myself (although the guilt, anxiety and panic were always lurking.) Even if my husband never finds out about my LE (which I truly hope he does not) it still is a bad thing for me because it diminished my integrity. Also, I do not want any other man to distract me from my husband. I hate that I fell back into limerence… For me, it happened so suddenly. I never would have expected it.
What are your thoughts?
We are having a rest day today. I think we might bum around some farmers markets or maybe do a bike ride or run. Something low key. Are your kiddos in camp right now? I love long days with my kids when we don’t have a schedule and float through the hours. I’m so happy that they love their sleep away camp and are such independent kids, but I do miss the summers when they were still little.
Hi Summer, sorry for the delayed response. Life got quite busy. I have been curious to hear about your 14er. If you posted about it, will you direct me to that post?
I agree that the guilt of a married limerent is high. I was so full of shame when I found this site. I felt like I couldnāt talk to anyone about it either. My guilt was high even though I hadnāt crossed any lines with my LO2. As soon as we realized that both of us felt mutual attraction, we went NC. We kind of alternated who was NC, it was usually both of us at the same time. We were both trying to protect our marriages and each otherās marriage. His friend told me that LO2ās biggest motivation to go NC was his respect for my SO. He admires my husband for adopting and raising four special-needs kids. Anyway, I am babbling, but I can relate to the feeling of intense guilt. I donāt know why I went on and on about that.
To answer your question, my kids have various camps all summer. Weāve already done some of them. One daughter goes to another camp in two weeks. The week after is a family camp. I mean the whole family, cousins and all. Itās one of my favorite weeks of the year. We run it like a scout camp with lots of events and activities. I love playing with my nieces and nephews! Iām already preparing for it. Itās a little early, but I just get so excited.
I hope youāre well.
Update:
I had lunch with LO2 and our friend. It was so nice. We had a great time chatting and catching up. There was no limerence at all. It felt normal again. Iām grateful that I got through limerence without hurting my relationships. My SO didnāt seem to mind that I went to lunch with my former LO either.
I guess disclosure worked for me. I wouldnāt have expected this outcome. My SO, LO2 and our friend all know that I had āfeelingsā for LO2. I never did anything inappropriate, to put it another way, I never acted on my feelings. Neither did LO2. Both of us focused on our marriages. I am in a much better place now. His marriage is in a better place, too, which blows my mind. He and his wife solved a problem that plagued them for 30 years. Holy cow!
The only person who doesnāt know is LO3. He is the person who I transferred my limerence to. I genuinely believed that I would keep it in my head and LO3 would be unaffected. I think I leaked symptoms because he developed feelings for me. We decided to accept our feelings and have a friendship anyway. We chose to be faithful to our spouses. I didnāt want this to become an emotional affair so I was careful to limit the frequency of contact, and I have been honest and open with my husband. LO3 is a positive influence in my life. He encourages me to be a better version of myself. I think that is just his personality. Iām grateful for boundaries because I couldnāt have these men in my life without boundaries.
LO2ās friend mentioned something interesting at lunch. He said that other people struggle to control their impulses. He was expressing gratitude that our church taught us how to control ourselves. I thought it was an interesting thing to say. He is right that our church taught us to live high standards and I am very grateful for those standards. But I think other people live high standards and control their impulses, too.
Anyway, I really think I am done with limerence. It was never as bad with LO3 as it was with LO2. I think what worked for me wasā¦
1. Transference to reduce symptoms quickly.
2. Minimize and avoid daydreams
3. Not acting on my limerence
4. Purposeful living. I started a new hobby: running. I am obsessed with running. It gives me highs and there is always something to think about. If nothing else, I can sign up for a race because I will obsess about an upcoming race every time. I really really really love running! Who knew that a middle-aged woman could finish a 50-mile race a year and a half after starting the sport? I didnāt. I didnāt even know I could run a marathon.
Good luck everyone!
Louisa,
Bravos! ššš
Lovisa, that is big news. You are pretty amazing and I’m glad you took this next step with SO. He sounds like a great guy and very appreciative to have you as his wife. I’m impressed by him. You are in such a unique situation, keep staying diligent with LO and keep communicating well with SO.
Thanks, Speedwagon!
Adam, your 100% right the triggers are not good I justified in my head that its good but I feel so depressed rn cuz I walked past old campus and the song I listened to which I first heard in glimmer. crazy thing is you said it gives you slight high which is probably true but I don’t feel the high when I engage in my triggers I just feel like shit, I felt like crying whilst walking thru my old campus but I feel like it simultaneously gives you a high and makes you feel low.
I think you answered your own question, Hf. That behavior isnāt serving you. Itās time to try something else.
Your right Miss Lovisa it is addiction at end of the day so leaning into triggers couldn’t possibly be helpful. I think it’s as simple as that. The depression I had yesterday has already basically run its course. Bearing in mind those depression episodes use to last a week or more. Objectively I have made alot of progress. When I analyze that the good days are much more frequent then before. The problem is yesterday I was withdrawing so bad and when I’m in that emotional state the progress I’ve made made becomes blind to me. Like the emotions take away your good judgement and make you feel like you at square 1. Emotions seriously do cloud your judgement.
That makes sense, Hf.
Emotions and depression are the order of my day anymore. Hf, your walk by the old campus is reminiscent of all the walks I take around work, where I used to see LO. I get the high of thinking of her, but I end just feeling more depressed and sad. And then I actually do cry. It’s sad and pathetic. But so is my reality outside of LO. I justify it by believing that.
I so need therapy, but not sure if it will help and I don’t even think I give a crap. Being in the crucible sucks. Buts it’s all I’ve got today..
Hey Mj, I āgive a crap.ā If youāre not willing to see a therapist for you, do it for me. At least do it until youāre ready to do it for yourself. I think Lost in Space suggested therapy for you and I know Limerent Emeritus wants all of us to āsee a pro,ā so you can probably add both of them to your list of people who āgive a crap.ā And if you need to lean on other people for a while until you āgive a crap,ā go for it.
Iām cheering for you, Mj!
Thanks Lovisa, I can do that for you. I’ve been leaving messages for a certain nearby Therapist, but she is not returning my calls or replying to my emails, so giving a crap obviously isn’t on her plate either.. Just sayin.
But I’ll keep trying.
It has been a mentally exhausting week for me. Not only with Dad but just a long week at the office (if you know what I mean, lol) I have another long week coming up but looking forward to a 2 week break in July.
I did see LO again this week, but without any drama. Just how it is now. My fingers are always crossed for a breakthrough. God-willing
Have been hoping to meet up with another female acquaintance soon, but not sure how she feels yet. She doesn’t glimmer, that’s all I know.
Miss Lovisa that was very brave of you. I’m having a hard enough time disclosing about ONE instance of limerence to my wife much less three. Your husband truly does love you and want to support you too.
Hopefully I can get some understanding from my wife at some point. I don’t know what it will take for her to forgive me, and maybe she won’t ever and I will have to carry this alone.
But I am very happy for you Miss Lovisa and your husband that this has not been what you feared it might have, and it seems to, have strengthen your bond together. Very happy for you. š
Thanks Adam. I have been pondering the contrasting responses of our spouses, too. I wonder if your wife feels like she lost something due to your limerence. My SO feels like he gained something: he got his happy, delightful wife back. When we were finished talking he asked, āAre you going to be okay? Will your depression come back now that you told me?ā I said, āI donāt think so.ā He didnāt put any new boundaries on me either. I can still have my male friends, even LO3.
I hope you and Mrs. Adam can get to a better place, too.
After reading your comment the only thing that comes to mind that my wife said in regards to LO was the night I told her about my limerence. My wife was asking me about how I felt about LO physically. I told my wife I did not think of LO that way but that she was attractive to me just like you are. She pushed the point about LO physically. And then said that’s why she hasn’t been interested in me because she was “afraid I would call her by the wrong name” if we got sexually intimate.
Now it is hard to ensure to your wife that could never happen when I have multiple times said LO’s name in my sleep. I think she also looked up LO on social media. When I met my wife online she had a lot of self esteem issues which I helped her work through over the years and she has gotten a lot more confident in herself. I am wondering if she saw LO and she’s having these issues again because I am limerent for a younger attractive woman. The problem is (that it might happen again since LO is gone) the less and less intimacy we have between each other, for me, I fear another LE.
Adam, I adopted some very mistreated kids. I have a son and daughter who know how to play psychological games. I am getting better at handling it and better at spotting B.S. That sounds like B.S. to me. I donāt want to throw your wife under the bus, but I am suspicious of her claim. It feels like she is deflecting. There could be a little truth in her statement, but I think something else holds her back and it is easier to put the blame on you.
Limerent Emeritus, I would love to hear your thoughts about what Adam shared.
It makes sense that your wifeās coldness would result in more coping behaviors in you: drinking and limerence. It makes sense, but I donāt like it. Maybe we can take a lesson from my LO2. He thinks his wifeās lack of empathy stems from her possibly being on the autistic spectrum. Here is how he copesā¦ he has many female friends who he reaches out to periodically. He has a very close male friend who he can talk to about pretty much anything. He tries to meet his wifeās needs and make her happy. He serves his community, he is an unpaid ecclesiastical leader in his church and it is a very demanding role. He has been coping with his wifeās coldness since they married almost 30 years ago. I am amazed at his strength.
I donāt know if that helps. I really want to see you and your wife get through this struggle. It is obvious that you love her.
Miss Lovisa
The frustrating part of all of this, is long before LO or limerence she seemed to not want to put in the effort in our relationship. I mean just that. She’s not actively being belligerent or argumentative. We still talk civilly. Share laughs. Sleep in the same bed still. It just seems that up to whatever moment she got this idea about an affair with LO, she was happy with the condition of our marriage. Now that I disclosed about limerence she seems at peace with it until it comes to intimacy. Especially sexual intimacy that has been absent for over a year.
If it weren’t limerence, it would be the anxiety or the bipolar or the migraines. I honestly think she’s done with sex in our marriage and so this limerence is new ammo to shoot at me. I honestly would rather her just say it if that’s the way she feels. Unless she fears I would leave if I knew for sure that it will be a sexless marriage from here on out.
What I think she either doesn’t understand or care to understand is that her ignoring this so to speak is just going to facilitate me not getting over LO because there’s no reason to, or getting limerent again for someone else if I do get over LO. And honestly the building resentment makes me feel like I am going to make a bad decision out of spite. And I don’t want that to happen. Whatever happens I don’t want to hurt her.
Yes! That sounds about right. I canāt say why her libido is low, but it feels like she is blaming it on you. She could be pondering it to herself, too. I donāt know. I canāt read her mind. Did you read about how Lost in Space revived his sex live with his SO? Go read Limerence For a Co-worker comments (Iām pretty sure thatās where weāre talking to Lost in Space). I donāt think spite or resentment will help this situation. Maybe we are right and your SO is blaming her problems on you. Being resentful or spiteful wonāt help. Letās just admit that it is a possibility and accept her anyway. We all do juvenile things sometimes. I want you to be aware of it because you donāt need to increase the guilt that you already feel. Awareness helps.
I think women need to feel safe, relaxed and desired to get their libido going.
Lovisa, I’m going to try to explain some things, I’ve told Adam he had permission to share.
Some of this may be hard for some to read, I just want to give that warning. . . .
At 15 I had ovarian cysts and my cysts didn’t go away, they ruptured, hormone related migraines with aura 3 days before my period, 1-2 days before ovulation. These types of migraines and my family history of stroke and heart attacks, I was not allowed (nor will I ever be) to use combination birth control.
When I was 17, I was diagnosed with endometriosis stage 2 coming very close to stage 3 via exploratory laproscopy. It was laser excised (causing scarring).
I was 18 when I was raped and the exam for that is just almost as violating. I was stuck 11 times trying to get blood. Finally they used the underside of my wrist, problem I have veins that drop, roll, and blow. I have blood related, smell and sight, Vasovagal Syncope and I know when I’m about to go out. I told the *man* that was routing around in my wrist that I was about to go out and I did. . . with the needle still in my wrist, I jerk (as if having seizures) and that ripped my wrist. and they freakin’ blamed me because they didn’t get enough blood…… uh ok, I warned them what else was I supposed to do? Then a police officer told me I didn’t need the morning after pill because of my last period start date, this man made a decision for me based on old science and very little understanding of *my body*…. I spent the next 9 days scared even more………hello worsened trauma.
I had a miscarriage the day after our 1st anniversary, after 3 years of infertility, we found out our oldest was on the way. The pregnancy was in trouble from the word Go. I went in for my 20wk ultrasound, I was having contractions, diagnosed with an incompetent cervix with funneling, an emergency circlage (usually they want to put in 2 stitches, I only had enough cervix left for 1 stitch – it’s a circle stitch) and then at 25weeks and 5 days, I went into premature labor again. I got to the hospital and I found out I was dilated to a 4 and the stitch had ripped through causing more scarring, they gave me a steroid shot for his lungs, started me on magnesium sulfate (that stuff is freakin’ evil!) loaded me into an ambulance and raced me 125 miles to Children’s Hospital. He was a double footling breech with a prolapsed cord. The next night my water broke and I had an RN riding the gurney with her hand pushing him back up because his feet had already left the birth canal. Emergent C-section under GA that I was not fully under when they started. at 25w6d my uterus was cut in an upside down T because of the way he was situated, he absolutely had to be brought out by c-section. More scarring in my pelvic region.
2nd son, preventative circlage (2 stitch), 17P injections weekly started at 16 weeks. at 32 weeks, I had a placenta abruption – I actually heard the pop when it happened. Our local hospital had nothing related to L&D, so I was once again loaded into an ambulance where the EMT told me ‘I don’t want to, but I can deliver the baby if I have to’ I said no you can’t, I’m sewn shut, he replied ‘we’re stepping on it.’ 15 miles felt like 1500 in the middle of big city rush hour, every time the ambulance had to slow or speed up, because people are stupid and don’t listen to sirens blaring, I could feel the blood rush down my legs. Get to the hospital, my white socks weren’t anymore. Now my uterus was stretched more than the 1st time because of the 6wk difference. I have 3 different incision points now. . . more scarring. All the scarring causes pain, some days it’s not going to interfere, other days it’s going to hurt if we have sex and he would absolutely flip lid if he thought he hurt me.
I watched my mom (who was extremely close to Adam, he was her son, not her son-in-law) go into a coma, one that at the time only 5% emerge from, she was one of the 5%. 4 months later she collapsed, and I laid my head by hers as she slipped away. It left a hole in all of us.
I don’t have any self-esteem, I hate the way my body looks I don’t even like looking in a mirror, I am 4 years 2.5 months sober – I’ve been sober 4x longer than I drank. He has a heart condition that could’ve killed him if I hadn’t pointed out his buried EKG report to his dr during the boys well-child check…she was livid with the ER, he had a cardioversion … 2020 hits, he needs more than just a cardioversion and since May 2021 we’ve lost 6 family members, 3 I found out by accident on facebook…. now take Bipolar, Anxiety, PTSD shoved on top of all that crap we have been through, he now has a wonderous almost ethereal in his description, woman in his brain that he talks in his sleep about at night (not as much as it used to be) after all that, please put yourself in my shoes. Would you want to take a chance it wasn’t you he was thinking about during sex, especially given he is the only man you have any trust in with all that past trauma?
Oh, I hit a nasty emotional brickwall, and I keep getting face first slammed into it.
sorry this is so long, but it’s things that I felt more context was needed.
Hello DmmitHardison aka Adamās wife aka Momma,
Donāt be sorry. Please share your story. Holy cow, you have been through enough. Okay, I am trying to put myself in your shoes, but I canāt. Iām so sorry. I canāt relate to your rape and I canāt relate to the pain you experience during sex. I was date raped at 15 by a boyfriend and molested by my sisterās first husband. I can honestly say the molestation was more traumatic. Neither of those things caused me to lose trust in all men, just in those men. So I canāt relate and Iām sorry for it. That being said, your description of your trauma sheds a lot of light on the situation. I can understand your reaction. It makes sense to me. Itās tragic for both of you.
Iām sad that your self esteem isnāt good. I suspected that a while ago and sent Adam a video about how you might be going through a transition because your boys are older and donāt need you as much as they used to. Iām sorry but I donāt have that video anymore and I wouldnāt know where to find it. Btw, Adam thinks youāre beautiful. You were wearing a tank top one day and you caught his eye, but he didnāt say anything to you. I think he should have told you that he thinks youāre beautiful. I wonder if your mistrust of men makes it hard for you to receive flirty compliments.
You are carrying a heavy load. Congratulations on your sobriety! I canāt relate to that either because I wasnāt much of a drinker before I joined my church and I havenāt touched alcohol since 1997 because of my church. But Iām impressed that you overcame something like that.
Itās so good that youāre getting this stuff off your chest. Do you feel any better? Iām pretty sure I speak for the whole LwL community when I say that we are glad you are here.
I’m happy for you, Lovisa! You deserve good things ā¤ļø
Lovisa – Iām really happy that your SO was so understanding and accepting, and I sincerely hope if continues that way going forward. Itāll be interesting to see how it plays out in the coming weeks and months, especially if there are any occasions when you, SO and LO are all present together.
I disclosed one prior LE to my SO (basically a one-sided EA where I was limerent for LO, while LO liked me and did some flirting but ultimately didnāt seem to have strong feelings and I never disclosed) and SO took it super hard. In her mind, if I had feelings for another woman, that meant I no longer loved her. I tried, totally unsuccessfully, to explain that I felt it was completely possible to have feelings for more that one person at a time. I had not learned about the concept of limerence yet – maybe that would have helped, or maybe not. SO also felt lied to and betrayed – for months sheād been suspecting something was wrong and had accused me multiple times of having an affair, and I had kept telling her it was all in her head and it was just a normal friendship. So when I finally told her the truth, I was basically admitting that Iād been lying to her for months.
Regardless, SO was pretty upset but ultimately mostly seemed to get past it, especially because LO had moved to a new state by then. However, 6 months later LO returned for visit and wanted to meet and catch up. I told SO and asked if it was ok; she agreed but she wanted to be there. It turned out horrible! Seeing LO again instantly brought back all my limerent energy and SO could see it easily. She was hurt and angry – we had some of the biggest fights of our life after that, and she seriously questioned if our marriage could continue. We eventually worked through it with several months of couples counseling and I cut that LO off completely and havenāt had contact with her sense.
One result of this experience is that Iāve been completely secretive about my current LO, and SO has no idea thereās been another woman living in my head for the past few months. Being secretive feels pretty bad, and has probably increased the chances of my EA progressing to a PA. So if youāre in a position where you can actually be open with your SO and not have to hide things, I think that would be pretty wonderful. Hiding things seems to add a level of danger and risk that just increases the energy.
Wow, thanks for sharing your story, Lost in Space. Your SOās reaction makes sense but it doesnāt sound helpful. I am glad you two got through that messy problem. And hats off to you for being honest about your follow up meeting with LO1. You did the right thing when you told your wife and took her along.
Something came to my mind. A few years after we married, SO confessed a pornography problem to me. I took it personally. I believed that I wasnāt attractive enough to satisfy him. I was devastated. Well, I am not so naive anymore and I know that if my SO used porn now, it has nothing to do with me. I had a change of heart. I wonder if your wife remains rigid in her thinking or perhaps she may have softened up. Itās worth considering.
In the case of my SO, it comes from a pretty deep place and I doubt very much it has changed. She had a biological father who abandoned the family early, and then a stepfather who constantly put her down. So for her whole life, she’s lived with a fear of abandonment and a feeling of never being good enough. So any disclosure that I’m attracted to another woman is going to trigger both of those feelings big time for her. In that last case (I suppose it was actually LO3, at least – I’m definitely a lifer), she felt really certain that I was going to leave her for the other woman, and fell into a deep depression feeling lots of negative things about herself that took months to get herself back out of. It’s crazy how the things that happen in early childhood play such a big role in our relationships decades later!
Good awareness. Iām sorry your wife went through that. She is lucky that she has you and that you strive to provide a secure relationship.
Have you identified your LOs? It was hard for me to decide who to count as an LO because I am a lifer, too. I wouldnāt be surprised if I had a crush on the doctor who delivered me. I decided to count the LOs who gave me trouble in my marriage.
Hi Lovisa,
I was thinking about that the other day – I can remember my first crush being on a girl in my 1st grade class, I used to lie awake every night in bed thinking about her and fantasizing (in an innocent 6 year old kid way) about being near her and knowing her better. She moved away that summer and I was heartbroken. We had made a paper mache cat together in class one day and I kept that cat in my bedroom for like 5 yearsā¦
Pretty much all of my school years was a series of crushes and fantasies that I was too shy to ever act on. Many of them lasting for years and always for only one girl at a time.
If I was going to count significant LOs in my adult (post high school) life Iād say 4:
LO1 – met her second year of college, she lived down the hall in my dorm. Really attractive woman and we really clicked; I liked her and she clearly liked me. But I had a long-distance girlfriend at the time who I was not limerent for and didnāt really even like that much – in retrospect I should have just broken that off and pursued LO1. But I didnāt and we ended up ājust friendsā although I thought about her constantly for the next 3 years – I broke up with my girlfriend about a year after meeting LO1, but by then she had a boyfriend, and we were just never available at the same time.
My limerence for LO1 ended immediately when I met my current SO during my final year of college. More on that laterā¦
I lived limerence free for a few years after meeting SO. I then met LO2 in graduate school. It was a case of feelings developing from just spending way too much time together. We started out as legit friends – both of us were married, i was friends with her husband as well, she was friends with my wife, we did lots of couples stuff together. In our second year of graduate school, me and LO2 started studying together for hours every day, volunteering together, etc – and then I realized I was feeling differently about her including round the clock intrusive thoughts, worrying about how she felt about me, wanting to kiss her, etc. I recognized what was going on and subtly changed my schedule without mentioning anything to her so that we wouldnāt have any classes together. Once we were no longer together all the time, the limerence eventually faded and it did mostly go back to just feeling like a regular friendship again. My wife never sensed anything wrong in that case.
LO3 I mentioned previously – Iāll add that she was a very attractive co-worker that I was working with constantly during the early days of COVID. She was single at the time and lived alone, so during the lock-down I was basically the main guy in her life. So I think she was being friendly with me and texting me late at night mostly of loneliness, and of course my limerent brain kicked in 100%
And of course Iāve written extensively about LO4 here. I texted her an hour ago to say good morning and ask how her weekend was. She hasnāt written back. Iām starting to feel the anxiety levels riseā¦ why hasnāt she responded? Did her feelings change over the weekend? I hate this way of livingā¦
SO was a totally different story – I met her my last year of college. We talked a bit at a couple parties, and then we basically got drunk and spent the night together on a friendās couch at a party (which was totally out of character for both of us). I walked her home the next day, we realized that we like each other sober as well, we actually had a ton in common and were really compatible, and we were basically together from that moment on. So while I fell madly in love with her and her with me, it was a totally different experience because I basically had her before I knew I wanted her and there was no period of uncertainty or longing whatsoever.
Why hasnāt LO4 texted me back? Sheās on her lunch break, thereās no reason she couldnāt unless sheās choosing not to ā¦ I hate this so much š¤£
Thanks for telling me about your LOs. It will help as you process your experience here, I will understand better what you are talking about. It sounds like you have a very strong commitment to traditional values. Good for you!
Lol, I understand that āwhy hasnāt LO reached out?ā feeling. My LOās threshold seems to be shorter than mine because he usually breaks first. I settle my thoughts by reminding myself of our most recent contact and I tell myself that since that contact was pleasant, nothing has changed and the next contact will be pleasant. I can last a week though I rarely have to survive more than a day. My LO can endure about 3 days of NC. Sometimes I hold back simply because itās possible that I am not in his mind in that moment and I donāt want to distract him from the important stuff like family and work. Maybe your LO is trying to let you have some time to focus on something else. Maybe sheās white-knuckling it.
Yesterday, I was really content and I wondered if my limerent days were passing since disclosing to my SO. I was playing board games with my SO, daughters and my daughterās boyfriend last night when I noticed that LO had commented on my training. The giddy limerence hit immediately. I wanted to open the app and see his comment, but I I didnāt. I donāt think I showed any symptoms either, thank goodness.
I wonder why it matters so much to me to know why LO isnāt texting backā¦ Itās all I can think about this afternoon.
Iām sure itās not to give me space – Iāve pretty consistently let her know that Iām eager for as much contact with her as possible during our āsafe hoursā when weāre both at work.
Last week I texted her on a Tuesday morning and didnāt hear back all day – that was the first time that had ever happened except for times when weād pre-agreed to go NC for awhile. The next day I asked her what was going on and if she was trying to let me know I needed to back off and leave her alone, and I requested that if that was the case to please just be direct and tell me rather than ghost me and leave me guessing. She responded that sheād just been busy and forgot to respond and it didnāt mean anything. Sheāll probably say the same later if I ask her about today. But I donāt find that believable – you canāt just āforgetā to text someone if youāre still having feelings for them, at least the kind of feelings she clearly had for me before when I donāt think I ever waited more than 30 minutes for a reply.
The only two possibilities I can think of are that either sheās white knuckling it for self-preservation or her feelings really did fade already and texts from me just arenāt a priority like they were before. And I know it would actually be a good thing if her feelings were getting less intense, but I also hate the thought of her not wanting me as bad as I still want her.
The other thing that I didnāt mention before is that she has kind of a complicated relationship with her ex-husband. They divorced a couple years ago after his infidelity, but he recently moved back in with her mostly for financial and co-parenting reasons. She says theyāre not really in a relationship but theyāre kind of sort of trying to reconcile, so she hasnāt wanted him to know anything about me either, and sheās been feeling guilty about being dishonest to him as well, especially since it sounds like heās making a genuine effort to regain her trust. She made it pretty clear to me that sheād break things off with him immediately if I was actually available, but I think that once she tested the waters with me and learned that I canāt ever actually be her life partner, sheās probably putting more of herself into trying to fix things with him. From what Iāve heard from her, heās pretty emotionally distant and doesnāt satisfy her emotional needs like I do, but heās a pretty reliable dad and partner (except for the one episode of infidelity), they coexist pretty amicably, and they have a 20 year history together, and being back with him would be preferable to continuing through life as a struggling single mom.
I proposed to her that we carry on a discreet EA that would let her meet her day to day needs with him while getting emotional fulfillment from me – she saw the appeal to that, but she also just isnāt as comfortable with the moral grey areas and compartmentalization as I am
So my guess is that sheās made up her mind to respond to me less and less until the feelings die out, but dang I wish sheād just tell me that and not leave me guessing.
Hopefully Iāll start seeing my new therapist on Friday š
LIS,
Seriously? Her Ex is back living with her?!
You don’t want to be in the same time zone with this. The last thing you need is to be the third side of that triangle.
As the EAP counselor put it,
“Get away from her and stay away from her. Stay involved with this woman and this will not end well for you.”
I’d be tempted to say you’re making this up except that I was dating a nurse and her friend told me that her ex had moved back in and she was trading sex for cocaine.
They have kids.
Lost in Space,
Your LO has a complicated life. I hope she finds a way to make it work. That sounds hard.
I feel like you are crying out for emotional intimacy. You discovered that you can get it from LO and you probably think it will help you cope at least for now. That might work, but I wonder if your wife feels the void, too. How is she doing?
My SO said that two symptoms of my limerence that trouble him are that I light up when I talk about LO and that I seem distant a lot, like I am deep in thought. He said I can be aloof. He also feels like I donāt talk to him about my day as much and he misses it. You might be leaking symptoms more than you realize.
I understand your thoughts about polygamy and a long-term EA. You are problem solving. You want to figure out how to keep LO in your life. I donāt think those ideas are going to work, but I do understand where youāre coming from. Emotional intimacy is a very important need. You are trying to ensure that your needs will be met.
Hang in there. You had quite the high from your LO. Coming down is going to hurt! We are here for you! Iām pretty sure I can speak for the other commenters.
Thanks yāall. So glad to be part of this community.
LE – definitely not making it up about her ex moving back in. We live in one of the most expensive metro areas in the US and that kind of thing is surprisingly common here. And yes, everything about the situation screams ārun awayā. And yetā¦ and yetā¦
Lovisa – good question about if Iām leaking symptoms and if Iām inadvertently withholding emotional intimacy from SO. SO actually seems pretty happy in our relationship currently, actually much more so than before this LE started. And weāve been feeling pretty close these last few months – lots of cuddling, long talks, shows of affection, lovemaking. But itās definitely something I need to monitor and stay conscious of, especially if this LE is coming to an end and all the energy and good feelings Iāve been harvesting and bringing home get replaced with depression and apathy.
I think that a few months ago, when the LE began, I was definitely in a low place with SO. Very little sex, mostly doing our own activities in the evening and on weekends. That certainly made me vulnerable to the LE, because the start of LOās overt interest in me coincided with probably the lowest point in my marriageās emotional intimacy in the past couple years. Bad timing I guess. Now my marriage is feeling a lot better, but Iām just so stuck on LO. Itās like if my back was injured so I started using pain pills, and now my back has improved and doesnāt hurt much anymore but now Iām just hooked on the pain pills.
There also feels like a dichotomy between work me and home me. Thatās probably common when your LO is a coworker. When Iām at home, I feel mostly content and happy with my life, in spite of the background chatter of thoughts in my head about LO. I fall asleep holding SO every night and wonder to myself why I feel like I need anything other than her. Then I get to work the next day, sit in the office where all of my most intense interactions with LO took place, and everything gets turned up to full volume and sheās all I can think of. Maybe a two week vacation would help a lot.
Finally, LO eventually texted back tonight, apologized for not responding earlier and said sheād had a really bad day and had been really down emotionally. Note to self – itās not all about you! And of course, I responded right away that Iām here to talk anytime she wants support, and she responded about how much she appreciates, and I got just enough of the good brain chemicals to last the night and start it all again tomorrow.
Lost in Space, your awareness is impressive. Keep up the good work.
@ Lovisa Your husband used porn but says he does not have other women in his head. It is different from limerence, but I would argue porn is taking your mind off your spouse and putting it elsewhere. I am not saying it is bad (and I agree with you it has nothing to do with you), I am just saying it is an example of our minds being elsewhere.
Some of you identify as “lifers”. Limerence has been, is, and you think probably will be a part of your lives always. It is part of your make-up. You have several LOs, one after the other sometimes. Caring intensely about an LO is just part of your life.
I wonder if there is a difference for people who are not lifers, and that it indicates a different kind of psychological reason for falling into limerence. For them, rather than part of the landscape, limerence is an unexpected off-the-Richter-scale earthquake. Some of these people are saying they have been in committed relationships for decades, then limerence hits them. Often later in life.
It would be interesting to if the cure of “purpose” works better in one case or the other. A question for Dr L.
Hi Hedge, I havenāt met you, yet. Please forgive that I donāt know your story. Thanks for addressing my situation. I think you are right. It is something I ponder. I have some female friends who keep things alive in the bedroom by using romance novels like Nicholas Sparks or Stephanie Meyer types of books. Whereas I use fantasies about real people. I wonder which is worse. Are they any different? I donāt know. Obviously, my method comes with the risk of reciprocation which is a problem. Just to be clear, I never excepted my LOs to reciprocate, they just did. I wish I could keep this in my head and not effect other people with it. Or even better, just be the devoted wife that I wish I could be. Iāll keep striving to do better.
Yes, I guess the porn could be seen as comparable. My SO is quite ashamed of that phase in his life. He has had what he would call a few relapses, too. I donāt judge him or hold it against him. In fact it doesnāt bother me. He chooses not to use porn now because he sees it as a barrier to being close to me, the real woman in his life. He doesnāt want that barrier. Maybe his mistakes are the reason he is so patient with me. He also feels guilty for letting himself go. I have been wondering if his self esteem is low and in a way my limerence makes sense to him. My LOs are very successful men. My LO3 is also very physically attractive. I like my SO better than any of my LOs, but I wonder if my SO thinks it makes sense that these other men have taken root in my thoughts.
I think all limerents experience that initial shock. Some of us accept that maybe this is something we have experienced before and will probably experience again. I didnāt call myself a lifer at first, but now I see a pattern of behavior. My LO3 says he has never experienced anything like this, not even when he was still dating. I guess there are people who feel like they just got hit by something. Oh, by the way, that is how I felt the first time, but I reflected a lot and realized that it wasnāt actually an isolated incident.
I appreciate that you shared your thoughts and I look forward to hearing your story if you want to share it.
Miss Lovisa
Just as a side note regarding your husband and porn; I too haven’t used it in many years. Unless my wife wants to in past years together, otherwise I have given it up. And I can honestly say I feel a lot better in my head. Pornography can really warp your mind over time. And I was especially concerned about dealing with it with both my boys as internet pornography is so easy to access. And being a 45 year old gamer I talk to a lot of young men, and am surprised how common pornography addiction. I think pornography is a lot like a substance drug. It’s fine if you can balance it. Moderation in all things and the such. My wife has made movies for me since I decided to give it up. The last one being for me Valentine’s day in 2020. I feel much less decided guilt using what she makes me if I need to use them.
As an aside to how your husband might feel about your multiple LOs; I realized when I started to improve myself it was around the time that I got the glimmer from LO. She is also a very fit and attractive woman. If my wife has ever looked her up online, I can feel where she might be feeling what your husband does. And wondering why her husband is drawn to a much younger and very attractive woman. But it does make me wonder how I would feel/react if my wife ever got limerent for a younger handsome man. I’m very protective of my wife, but not so much jealous. Because I may not trust men in general but I trust her. If she tells me some younger buff guy made a pass at her and made her feel better about herself I always tell her “you still got it momma”.
But this isn’t the first time I’ve improved myself and my health. It’s just as the years of our marriage being stagnant I let the first 50 lbs I lost come back as I was too unmotivated. Until LO came along. I can’t honestly say it was all because of LO because due to my heart condition that developed in late 2019, I needed to loose weight anyway. I worked on it before but not as aggressively until I had glimmer with LO. Now that LO is gone I am striving to stay fit and healthy for my wife too. I like to see the looks we get when I do get her to go out and I’m formal wear and she’s in sweatpants and a hoodie lol We look like the odd pair. But there I am looking like I came from a business meeting with my arm around her waist walking with her.
Thanks for sharing that, Adam. Your perspective is helpful.
Porn use is an interesting topic in this context. Iāll admit I use it fairly frequently. I donāt feel addicted to it. I use it probably 3-4 times a week for 10-15 minutes at a time – just long enough to achieve what I need to achieve. I donāt think about it when Iām not using it or have any intrusive thoughts about it. I can honestly say I havenāt ever seen it affecting my relationship with SO.
I see two uses for it in my life:
1) A safe source of sexual relief when my SO is going through period long dry spells with really low libido
2) A distraction from my LO. Somehow it seems better to be masturbating to a random porn video than to thoughts of my coworker.
I also find that for porn to work for me, it needs to have some sort of emotional aspect – some sort of backstory, some kissing and caressing before the sex starts, some semblance of an actual connection between the actors. Close ups of genitals doesnāt do it for me. Naked bodies mechanically copulating with no context doesnāt do it for me either. Violent or abusive stuff definitely not! Depictions of tender lovemaking – yes for me. I wonder if thatās true for a lot of limerents?
Oopsā¦ To clarify I meant to write āperiodic dry spellsā meaning that she has these times every so often when she just loses all interest in sex for weeks or months. My phone autocorrected it to āperiod dry spellsā which makes it sound like something related to her menstrual cycles, which isnāt what I meant to say at all
Thank you for being so open, Lost in Space. I wonder if you have an emotional intimacy void in your marriage that you are filling with LO. I think a lack of sex can create that void for a man.
Hey, what are anonymous Internet forums good for if not for allowing us to be open? š
Yes, my experience has been that lack of sex is very damaging to my feelings of emotional intimacy in my marriage. Lack of sex makes my SO feel like a friend instead of a lover, and sends me looking for fulfillment elsewhere, either via porn or other women. I wish it wasnāt that important to me, and Iāve tried many times to make it not be important, telling myself to just find fulfillment in other things, but Iāve just never been able to make that work.
And to be clear, Iāve never actually gone looking for another woman or consciously planned to find someone else. I think sometimes I just end up in an emotional state where Iām just really vulnerable to developing limerence if the right person comes around and then I donāt set the boundaries I should if an attractive woman shows interest.
There have definitely been other times when my marriage was doing well and an attractive woman showed interest in me and I was able to cut it off before any feelings developed. So I think for me to get caught up in an LE requires the combination of a low period in my marriage coinciding with meeting someone attractive who shows interest in me. So I suppose the key to preventing future LEs would involve constantly investing in my marriage to try to keep the intimacy good (knowing that sometimes thatās just out of my control) and recognizing the times when Iām vulnerable and actually committing to holding my boundaries even more strongly during those times instead of relaxing them and leaning into an LE thatāll fill the void temporarily.
Wow, you are rapidly figuring out your LE. Do you excel at everything? I am impressed with your quick progress.
Can we address porn a little more. Itās a touchy subject that most people avoid. I have questions.
1. Do you use it even if your sex-life is going well?
2. Do you think your libido is always higher than your SOās? And is that the only reason to use porn?
3. Do the images come to your mind while you are being intimate with SO?
4. I heard that it causes ED. No problems there?
Thanks so much for taking advantage of the message board anonymity and opening up about tough subjects. Itās helpful.
Lovisa – great questions about porn. I’ll give you a peak into my male mind
1) If my sex life is going well, I use porn very infrequently. If SO and I are rarely having sex, I use it much more often. It’s a poor substitute for real intimacy, but it is a substitute and it’s a million times better than doing it with a different partner.
2) Our libidos are definitely mismatched. SO ranges from wanting sex 2-3 times per week during good times, to less than monthly during bad times. My range for what I’d consider satisfactory probably starts at 2-3 times per week and peaks at 1-2 times per day. For the first couple years of our relationship, her libido matched mine – she used to jump on me every day when we got home and wake me up at 3am for another round. It was great! Then after a year or two, her libido decreased significantly and mine never really did. So I’d say our libidos are somewhat mismatched in general, and during her dry spells, they are extremely mismatched, and my porn use increases a lot during those times as an attempt to compensate (fairly unsatisfactorily)
3) Images from porn never come to mind involuntarily when I’m with SO (and in fact, neither do fantasies of LO). As long as the sex is good, meaning that we’re both engaged and enjoying it, then I’m fully focused on SO. There are occasional times when she is just not into it – she’ll agree to have sex mostly out of duty or pity or something, and I can tell she’s just not into it at all. This actually doesn’t happen to often, but it’s pretty terrible when it does. In some of those instances, I’ll voluntarily think of images from porn or other fantasies from women I know in person in order to keep my interest up enough to finish – this is definitely not something I like doing.
4) I can honestly say I’ve never had ED from porn. I’ve had ED exactly once in my life – it happened about 2 months ago after a particular intense telephone conversation with LO where we’d discussed the possibility of progressing to a PA but ultimately decided to cut contact. My mind and emotions were such a mess when I got home that when I tried to make love to SO absolutely nothing worked down there. I had to just shrug and say I had no idea why it happened. Fortunately she gave me a second chance a day later and everything worked fine.
I guess if I’m being honest, the other factor in porn’s appeal is just a curiosity about what other women look like naked. Probably everyone has some curiosity and some desire for variety, and for me porn has been a way to indulge in that desire for variety in a safe-ish way.
Finally, there have been times in my life when I decided to quit masturbating completely – after a few days, my libido would be crazy high and all I could think of all day would be sex. Getting that physical release 1-2 times per day seems to keep me from thinking about it the rest of the day, and that can keep me from making bad decisions. For example, when LO was coming to hang out with me alone in my office every day last month, I started masturbating before work every morning to release the pressure and try to keep myself in check with her, and apparently it worked…
Thank you so much for answering my questions, Lost in Space. You have a very high libido. I wonder how much LO effects it. My LO2 used to send my libido through the roof. I took it out on SO so to speak. At one point, my SO asked if he could do the initiating for a while because daily was a bit too much.
I think it is very wise to take care of yourself before you have contact with LO so that hopefully you reduce your chances of giving into temptation. Good thinking.
Thanks for letting me into your male brain!
Looks like I missed some fun topics here lately.
Just checking in to say hi. My days with LO are now both good and bad. The good is her interactions with me at the office feel so warm lately, it’s as if since I disclosed she can be more free somehow with me in her affection towards me. She smiles at me a ton now and the eye contact is still very heavy. Today we were talking about health and nutrition some and I was telling her about some minor health things going on with me that I control with good nutrition. She actually had a few moments where she got serious and almost scolded me to take care of myself. I have to admit, I really like that level of concern and care from her. She also did that thing today where she was walking past my office door and did the 120 degree turn back to look at me at my desk and smile at me. That melts my heart also.
The bad…all those warm encounters and feelings of affection keep me hooked. It drives thoughts of her all evening and then on the weekends I feel down because I’m not around her for a couple days. We still don’t text, which is good, but I still desire constant interaction with her.
But even though these days are still tough, it’s better than a few months back when I was filled with uncertainty of her feelings and texting anxiety. It’s now clear she has a level of affection for me, but I still believe her when she says it’s just friendship. I have made my peace with that.
Oh…and I get to meet her SO on Friday. We have an evening office event we are doing. Me, my SO, my LO, and her SO all in the same room. I am fairly certain he has no active knowledge of any of this. Should be fun.
“She actually had a few moments where she got serious and almost scolded me to take care of myself. I have to admit, I really like that level of concern and care from her.”
I remember when LO noticed I had lost weight. I remember when she found out my heart condition and would scold me about my smoking. It was in a affectionate way and not mean but I could hear the seriousness in her voice that she was legitimately concerned about my health. By the time of her last day at work I had virtually stopped smoking and I remember her saying later in the afternoon that she noticed I hadn’t smoked at all that day and that she was proud of me. Omg be still my heart.
Maybe that is something else I miss from my wife other than physical intimacy; mothering me.
Iām looking forward to Fridayās report, Speedwagon.
Sorry Adam and Speedwagon, but I think I just added showing concern to my playbook. Thanks for the tip. Iāll use it on SO, too.
Iām curious, when does it become nagging?
Can’t speak for Speedwagon, but to me it’s mostly all in tone. If it is playful or of genuine concern and not chastising, I take it a lot better.
LO: Adam you know you need to cut down on your smoking” *LO one hand on her hip and one pointing at me* “What am I going to do about getting all this work done if you have a heart attack? Hmmm?” *LO gives me those sparkling eyes and smiles*
Me: “Yes ma’am”
I guess it’s the difference between how you tell an adult what they don’t want to hear and how you tell a child that makes the difference. And then when you do make progress hearing acknowledgement of it. I don’t know about most men but just cause we grow up doesn’t mean we don’t like hearing praise for our accomplishments from women. And if SO isn’t I’m going to like hearing it from LO. I guess we always need a “mother”.
Thanks Adam, that makes sense.
I listened to a video on YouTube from marriage helper and I thought of your SO. Disregard the title, it isnāt applicable to the first topic of the video in my opinion. Please check it out.
https://youtu.be/ER5JAPUPHCU
I can relate to the feeling of questioning self-worth as a middle aged woman. I wonder if your SO is struggling with this. My son committed a crime and was taken away in handcuffs almost 3 years ago. He hasnāt been safe enough to rejoin our family and he has been in state custody all this time. It derailed me. I wondered what all my efforts were for. Why did I pour all that energy into my kids when my influence doesnāt even matter. And if I canāt even be a decent mother, what value do I have? My SO does some stuff that helps a lot because I am still getting through this struggle.
He notices the little things. Heāll open his drawer to pull out some fresh clothes and comment, āI appreciate having clean clothes. You are so kind to do my laundry. Thank you.ā Stuff like that helps a lot!
Something happened on Sunday that made me think I might actually add value to my kidsā lives. I took them on an adventure to a frozen waterfall. I love adventures! The hike back to our car was hard on my 7-year-old daughter. She wanted to stop a lot and she was cold. I got a crazy idea. I started singing silly camp songs as loud as I could. It worked. My SO and daughter listened to me cycle through my repertoire of silly songs for 1.5 miles of icy hiking. I was relieved that it worked. So relieved. She didnāt stop or complain once as long as I was singing. I felt grateful that my brain is full of silly songs and I didnāt have to repeat anything. When we talked about our favorite part of the adventure, I was surprised to hear that my SOās and daughterās favorite part was my singing. It gave me a little boost of confidence. Maybe Iām not such a failure at motherhood. Maybe I got some stuff right. Maybe I can do a good job going forward.
Maybe your SO is going through something similar and she just needs some encouragement and recognition.
“Yes, my experience has been that lack of sex is very damaging to my feelings of emotional intimacy in my marriage. Lack of sex makes my SO feel like a friend instead of a lover”
I think this is a large portion of why LO glimmered to me so much. Here’s a nice attractive young lady giving me attention, (even if it wasn’t physically intimate) sharing things about herself and her life, laughing at my bad dad jokes and otherwise fulfilling a lot of what I wasn’t getting at home. I think it is something that maybe women take for granted. Paying your man some mind goes along way to keeping him on track with you. Men have emotional needs despite what society might say. And sex and physical intimacy of any kind greatly helps fulfill a man’s emotional needs.
Now whether LO knew I was seeking that attention from her I am not sure. But I think she had some clue that I was. Probably not to the limerent extent but from how she interacted with me I think she knew I was at least smitten with her. Everyone else in the office did.
And yes when things are going good as far as in the marriage it is easy to turn down straying. I have done it myself. It can indeed be very flattering and an ego boost. But when you know you got a partner at home that’s waiting to ravish you it’s very easy not to stray. When that’s not the case than it is entirely different.
Adam, take care of yourself!
Sorry, I meant to post that comment on the thread where you talked about smoking. I clicked the wrong reply button.
That is helpful information! Thank you, Adam.
I have always thought that sex is important. My mom told me that sex is the glue that holds a marriage together and I think thatās true. I get so angry when I hear about a married woman who withholds sex. Itās a trigger for me. It feels abusive. It feels like sheās holding her husband hostage. Itās like saying, āNow that weāre married, you donāt get to have your needs met. Donāt even think about getting them met elsewhere because society will shame you for it. Just get used to feeling empty all the time. Thatās all you get is emptiness. Deal with it. Oh and donāt forget to meet my needs and make me happy. My needs still matter.ā Sorry, I donāt know why it makes me so angry. It puts the man in a terrible position of choosing between his integrity and his needs. Both are really important.
I do try to factor in things like her anxiety and bipolar because I know it does effect her libido. But it seems this time it’s different. I will keep digging until I can get a straight forward and honest answer from her and we get this figured out. I really don’t want to fall into limerence for another woman. This I hope to be a one time experience.
Miss Lovisa,
Something interesting happened with my wife last night that I am still trying to figure her intentions for doing this and would like your opinion on.
So I was outside having a drink and listening to music on my headphones. Had been for about 30 minutes or so after I got home from work. My wife comes outside and sits in the chair to have a smoke and says “I want to play a song for you”. So I give her my phone and she plays this song …
Baby’s Got Her Blue Jeans On — Mel McDaniel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDTyLi2pKGc
I listen and like it. I tell her I like it, I like the music and its true, a woman can’t help it. After that I go in the house and play Xbox with my son for about an hour before I realize I am out of soda for my drinks so I ask my wife if she’d drive me to the store because I had drinks. She said she would.
Now this is where I get totally lost. I get in the truck and sync my phone to the truck and play this song again.
Momma: You really do like this song.
Me: Yeah I do *smile*
Momma: I thought you’d like it when I thought about it. *smiles*
Like did she know what I was thinking when I listened to it? And do you think that’s why she played it for me? Cause there’s probably no way I would have found it on my own as I don’t listen to a whole lot of country. What do you think Miss Lovisa? It just seemed like she knew what this brought to mind and she was okay with it.
Oh and I forgot to add Miss Lovisa I had a very specific memory of LO when that song played that I was thinking of. And I wonder if my wife read that from my face because she was watching me while I listened to it. Cause LO knock me over with what she wore on her last day and one of the few times, if only time, I had those kinds of physical thoughts about her.
She shared it with you because she knew you would like it. She wanted to connect with you. She wanted to put a smile on your face. She didnāt know that it reminded you of LO. She might think it reminds you of her. She was being loving and kind. Celebrate!
Adam – I agree that lack of sex and mismatched libido is a huge issue for a lot of us! Itās such a difficult issue. If my wife isnāt interested in sex for reasons having nothing to do with me (her meds, her mental health, etc), thereās usually not a lot I can do to make her interested. And I can tell if sheās doing it just for my sake and isnāt into it at all – that experience is pretty terrible and Iāve eventually concluded that Iād generally rather have no sex than āduty sexā
My wife and I used to run together all the time. Now she doesnāt like to run anymore and I still do. I miss running with her and I hope she regains her interest, and I still invite her sometimesā¦ but guess what? I can still run! I can run by myself or I can run with friends, but I donāt have to stop running just because she doesnāt want to.
Sex is different. If SO doesnāt want to have sex for weeks or months, then I donāt get to have sex either. I canāt do it alone, and Iām not allowed to do it with anyone else, so I just miss out on something thatās really enjoyable and important to me.
Iād also say, and Adam Iām guessing youāll agree, that having my SO reject me sexually feels like a rejection of me as a person. My rational brain can tell me that itās not about me, itās about her mental state, but emotionally it really does feel like a rejection of me as a man and as a person. And conversely, when LO shows interest in me sexually as well as emotionally, it feels like an acceptance of me as a man and as a person. And that puts me in a really vulnerable state, and it takes everything I have to do whatās right instead of what would make me feel so good as a man.
“My rational brain can tell me that itās not about me, itās about her mental state, but emotionally it really does feel like a rejection of me as a man and as a person. ”
I wish to share a personal story about this statement. This was some years back. My wife had no interest in sex, and for many of the reasons that your rational mind can understand. Her medication, mental state, aging, etc. It was closing in on a year without any physical intimacy. So my emotional state starts invading my rational mind to the point that my mind had convinced me that not only was my wife not interested in me any more but men in general. She must have had some bisexual epiphany and wanted to be with a woman but didn’t know how to tell me. Eventually she knew something was wrong and confronted me. I finally confessed what I was worried about and she assured me that wasn’t the case.
Like you too, I have no desire to seek it out in another woman, nor do I care much to go solo. I’d mostly rather do without unless it starts interfering with my day to day then I will take care of it. But otherwise I just want that intimacy and closeness with her that keeps me in line. I have a good feeling the lack of sex and other intimacy issues are a big reason why LO glimmered so much. Even though I honestly don’t want the physical intimacy with her but did crave the emotional intimacy. But who knows where it could have went if LO did show interest in me. I’d really glad in some ways LO is gone. But I totally agree it makes doing the right thing vs the instinctual thing a real battle.
But I think that is a concept that is difficult for most women to grasp because they have a very different view of sexual intimacy. Miss Lovisa is the first woman in a long time that really has a good grasp on both sides of the fence when it comes to sex in a relationship. But then the lack of sexual intimacy is still on a man for straying. And while I am absolutely not condoning cheating (I think one should end a relationship if they are not getting out of it what they need) it is a huge REASON why a lot of married/committed men cheat. And that REASON has as much validation to be understood as it does understanding a woman’s view of sexual intimacy. But it’s not. And so men continue to be misunderstood and continue to stray.
We might want to shift the sexless marriage discussion to a different blog. It might help others who come later.
My story’s here: https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-the-sexless-marriage/#comment-11409
I appreciate the education I am getting from you guys. The lowest my libido has ever been was every other week. It was when I had 4 young kids, I was overwhelmed all the time, I had kids touching me all day and I didnāt want to be touched by anyone. I had this āhands off!ā attitude because I lived with this continuous feeling that my body wasnāt mine. It made me feel protective of myself. (Side note, I regret all the bedtime stories. I should have been rolling in the sheets with my SO instead of developing my kidsā brains. Even better, if SO had read half the bedtime stories and I read half, maybe we would have met our kidsā needs and had time to fool around. My SO left parenting to me even though adopting our foster kids was his idea, it was my burden. Not anymore, he is very helpful now.). Anyway, if I go 2 weeks without sex, my mind plays games with me. I have weird dreams and I find lots of men attractive. One time I had a thought as I walked into the Walmart, āOh wow, Iāve never noticed how attractive the Walmart greeter is. Wait a minute, heās old enough to be my father, how long has it been since I had sex? Oh, I must have hit the two-week mark. Poor SO is probably losing his mind, too.ā I wondered if my higher than the average female libido has anything to do with my lack of fertility. I guess it doesnāt because my sister is the same but sheās fertile. She thinks itās genetic. She thinks we all have high libido except maybe not our adopted brother. Itās mostly speculation because we donāt talk to the boys about these things, just each other. Itās too bad that this subject is so taboo because it helps to talk about it. My SO calls that time when we dipped down to every other week our āsexual drought.ā He doesnāt blame me for it, he blames himself for piling responsibilities on me without thinking about how it effected me. Oh well, we canāt change the past, and even though we have been through hell with our kids, I still love and want all of them. I wouldnāt give any of them back.
I guess I should admit that sex was my drug of choice as a rebellious teenager. I quit it completely when I had a change of heart and committed myself to God. It was hard to give up. I also gave up other stuff like coffee and alcohol, but it wasnāt as hard to give up either of those. Sacrificing physical intimacy was really hard for me. On my wedding day, I had been celibate for 363 days. Whew, it was over. I like telling my SO that I married him because I wanted to get down his pants and he hasnāt disappointed me. Lol, of course that isnāt the only reason, I like his family, too.
I think libidos just vary. I have a female friend who left her husband because they didnāt have sex for 3 months. She warned him that she couldnāt live without sex and he needed to make a choice. He tried to comply, but she could feel that his heart wasnāt in it so she left. She says she canāt sacrifice that part of herself. Itās interesting that so many men have to sacrifice that part of themselves. I have no doubt that other women understand the low female libido more than I do. Hopefully one of them will say something.
But I will say thisā¦ an overwhelmed female doesnāt want sex, she wants the chores done so she can relax. If she tries to have sex when the chores are on her mind, itās near impossible to focus on the sex. So boys, do the chores! Seriously, the dishes donāt sit long at my house because SO knows it gives me stress and he doesnāt like when Iām stressed. Notice what effects your wife and take care of it. Maybe that will help, I donāt know.
I really wonder why it makes me so angry when a wife withholds from her husband. My best guess is that I may have witnessed something as a child that stuck in my mind. I donāt know. My mom was definitely horrible to my dad and he tried to keep peace with her. She was so awful to him: mean, volatile, aggressive and my dad couldnāt do anything right. Maybe thatās why I care about menās feelings. Maybe Iām trying not to repeat my momās mistakes.
That was probably an overshare, sorry.
Miss Lovisa
Of course you are a good mother. I can tell that from just talking to you and how much you care about people you’ve never even met much less your own kin. And at some point every person has to be accountable for their actions regardless of their upbringing. Sure it does effect us and shape who we become but it doesn’t excuse our actions by blaming our parents. I’m fairly certain my parents do still love me but I am the black sheep for leaving practicing religion behind.
And yeah those little things are nice. Like that my wife still makes my grilled cheese for me when I want them. Cause I can cook some eel tempura but for some reason grilled cheese sandwiches are out of my skill set lol They are either soggy with butter or burnt; no in between. But she does that for me and I am always appreciative of that from her.
And I am glad that you could turn the adventure around for your daughter so she could enjoy it too. I haven’t been on a hike in forever but when we first got married I took my wife on one where I usually hiked where I grew up before we moved. Now I usually just take walks around the neighborhood for exercise and alone time.
I will check out the video you posted at my lunch hour or when I get home and let you know what I think.
Maybe I was reading too much into it last night. The limerence and intrusive thoughts were bad yesterday. They seem to increase with stress and Mondays are usually stressful at work. And we did celebrate; she sang along and I tried to as best I could not knowing the song lyrics like she did. And before you know it turned from a memory of LO to us making a new memory together. It’s very difficult to try and purposely change my thoughts as it is tempting to dwell on memories of LO. But I must be strong and purposeful.
Thank you for always being here Miss Lovisa. You have helped me more than you can ever know.
You are so welcome, Adam! You have helped me, too. Isnāt it funny that weāre helping each other. What an amusing comboā¦ I remain deeply involved in my conservative Christian religion and you are the āblack sheepā who thinks he left his religion behind, but other people can clearly see his Christianity. Hmmm, what a funny combo.
I like that you are re-writing LO memories with thoughts of SO. That is a leap towards healing!
NC is almost impossible for me, I’m flying to the other end of the world for a working holiday in her country.
Its been 6 years of ebbing and flowing limerence for me, a 23 year old girl. When I was 18 I met a girl, an Australian exchange student that I was immediately drawn to. We became fast friends, and did everything together. She confided in me with the trauma she had been through (similar to mine, I think this trauma bonding is a HUGE part of my attachment to her), and we learned everything about each other. She was 20, a bit older than me, and I started to realise a month or so in that I really, reeeeeeally liked her. At the time I had been taking a liberty in dating around and sleeping with people, enjoying the newfound freedom of university. This was all a coping mechanism for me as I was (without knowing it) struggling with hypersexuality brought on by early CSA.
An ill-thought out relationship with another girl in my class dive bombed, and I diverted all attention to this new friend. We’ll call her Emma. Emma let our friend group know that she was bisexual, not out to anyone including her boyfriend, which was a huge revelation. Around that same time, she kissed me (very, very briefly) and laughed and told everyone it was a joke, but whispered in my ear that she had done it because “you’re hot”. This was AGES ago, and I’ve come to terms with the fact that it meant nothing, and she herself explained, in the future, that she had done it because she was unhappy with her life and relationship and just thought I was pretty. Fair enough. I am pretty.
So for time we were in school, Emma, our mutual friend Morgan (her roommate), and I were always together. I found any excuse I could to spend time with them, and my marks suffered. Emma and I grew closer and closer, and Morgan and I would discuss the odd nature of our relationship, how it seemed like something more was going on between the two of us. A lot of our friends said the same, and some people who were just meeting us assumed we were a couple. I took this as some sign we were meant to be together, but in hindsight, I looked at her like she was the personification of the sun, so I can’t say I’m surprised people picked up on the vibes *I* was putting out. We slept together in the same bed often, we cuddled, I gave her back scratches, there was a lot of physical affection. She would get drunk and get very touchy, she would talk about how gorgeous my eyes were, she said about me “when she looks at you its like there’s no one else in the room”. I was confident I wasn’t the only one with SOME kind of feelings.
We then went to Italy together! It was a fantastic trip but greatly fuelled the fire for me. Shortly after the trip I confessed to my feelings (while we were back in our respective countries) and she said that if she weren’t in a relationship, she would feel the same way. This lead to some crazy jealousy. It didn’t help that she was struggling with an all consuming ED at the time, that I would talk to her about and try to walk her through. She nearly died a couple times. Her boyfriend was a sack of rock salt, he did nothing to help. Those near-death experiences brought us much closer together, even than we were before. We talked every day, and the quality of my day was dependent on how long for. We’d fall asleep on video calls together, she’d text me as soon as she woke up, it was very close. My whole life revolved around her, and I was completely miserable. I couldn’t stand the fact that we couldn’t be together and this lead to a big fight about how she was “leading me on”. I absolutely went about it in the wrong way, accused her of being manipulative, but I was so confused and I did feel cheated in some way. I’m very embarrassed of it now.
So, that led to a pattern of sorts. We reconciled, she explained that she loved me deeply as a friend but was bound to her partner, and I backed off. And then, she came to visit (brought him), and the two seemed to be having some serious relationship troubles. They broke up, and right after, she came to visit again. We got into another fight because I thought the boyfriend was the person keeping us apart, right?? No, and she was not ready at all for any other relationship. Okay, fine, fair. We reconciled after that. She explained again that she just never had those feelings for me, and the first time she was softening the blow so that I wouldn’t feel bad. She said our relationship was stronger than just friendship. She said she thought of me as a soulmate, just not in “a sexual way”.
There was always a reason we couldn’t be together. At first it was the boyfriend, then it was her need to be single, and then it was the fact that she wasn’t yet comfortable dating women. Morgan and I went to visit her in early 2020, and it was an awesome time where we went all over the coast of Australia doing fun things, including going to a club with Emma where her and I danced (what felt like to me) suggestively. We slept in the same bed, she slept in my lap, we were all close again. And so when I got home, shortly after, I was devastated to find out that Emma had asked out a woman. And they were going on a date together. And she was her girlfriend now. And my world turned upside down and I had to come to terms with the fact that it wasn’t because I was a woman, it was because I was me. She just wasn’t interested in me.
This was the catalyst for the final blow-up, where it really looked like we weren’t going to recover this time. Emma explained what she had a hundred times, that she wanted me to be open and honest with her about things and let her know if anything she did ever made me uncomfortable or like there might be something between us (of course I didn’t do that, where’s the fun? I was pretty immature.) Looking back I can’t blame her for not being interested in me in that way, I wasn’t a very desirable person in the way I treated others and dove into unhealthy patterns of behaviour. Emma and I didn’t talk for a few months, but eventually that summer we worked out that, okay, we can stay friends, but I can never pull this shit again. Yep, fair. I was humiliated for the final time, but grateful that we could stay friends. It was a good, fun, easy friendship when it wasn’t so complicated.
Right after that summer, I met a new girl (Kara), and fell in love. She became a new obsession of sorts, and our relationship was turbulent because of this. Both she and I had some serious problems with insecurity and leftover childhood stuff, and it lead to fights and instability. But I was addicted to that instability. My ex-girlfriend and I had a wonderful relationship at times, where the two of us just got to breathe and have fun. It was healing for me moreso than harmful, and it let me do some fantastic work with my therapist, where I got to the bottom of the harmful pattern that resulted in my feelings for Emma. And best of all, my feelings for Emma greatly diminished. I got to know her new boyfriend (things with her girlfriend didn’t work out) and genuinely liked him (and still do!).
My patterns is: I seek out people to adore, playing out a familiar dynamic of chasing after the approval of one single person (starting with my mother). When Emma met me, she took me under her wing, almost. She let me talk about my problems with my family and the horrible things I had to witness as a young girl. She held me in her arms and let me cry. She was, I think, the first person I’d met who really saw my need for love and care, and gave it without expecting anything in return. So of course I essentially imprinted on her.
Things ended between Kara and I in November. Emma had come to visit during in September during a period of our instability and it drove a further rift between us because those feelings came back (almost certainly BECAUSE things were rocky with Kara). I thought the way to deal with it was to tell Kara directly, but it made things worse. To be fair, we were on the outs already, and we mostly ended things because she was planning to head to med school in the UK. But, the Emma incident did not help. I didn’t act on those feelings, or tell Emma I was feeling that way again, I just told Kara after the fact, when she had left. I tried my best to minimize any potential damage.
Emma and I had gotten closer in a way that felt a lot healthier and less obsessive than our previous dynamic, and when she was here, we had an honest and frank conversation about my (former) feelings for her. She explained that she “wanted to grow old with me, but just didn’t want to kiss me”. Which made sense at the time, I think. She confided in me that she was planning on proposing to her boyfriend, how she feels like the luckiest girl in the world, and I felt all that old weird hope slip away. They have pretty much everything in common and are a perfect match, if I’m being honest. There were still odd little moments during her visit, where I caught her looking at me or she’d drunkenly sing to me, or where she’d bond with Kara about me being attractive and say I had flustered her (this one was weird), but I tried really hard to not lock those away in my brain and pick over them.
One thing I can’t seem to shake though, is something Emma wrote in this story she’s been writing. She’s a wonderful writer and it was a big part of why I liked her so much (I’m an aspiring writer myself). She sent me this passage about her protagonist and her best friend, and how in high school everyone thought they were a couple, they were bullied for being “dirty lesbian lovers”. In the passage it says something like “even though there was nothing sexual between them, at least lovers was the closest thing to capturing the warmth and intimacy the two shared”. And she sent this passage to me talking about how the relationship between the two girls was “gay, but not really. but gay. but not. but definitely a little gay”. It felt like the perfect way to describe our weird dynamic, and felt like I was gaining insight into how she viewed it herself. Gay, but not gay?
I’m in a weird limbo state right now with my feelings for Emma. I can almost feel them slipping away entirely, but I’m really reluctant to let go of them, because I feel like it says something about me (?) that I can’t live with if we never end up together. Its very odd. So, in order to deal with this, I’m diving right into it!
Emma isn’t the whole reason I’m going to Australia, but I’d be lying if I said she wasn’t a part of it. I got laid off and I have savings I don’t want to blow through just to pay rent, I love travel, and I especially love Australia. Some of the best moments I had on my trip there had nothing to do with Emma, she wasn’t even around, and I’ve enjoyed learning about the country on my own. Aus has a killer music scene with a bunch of genres I’m crazy about (surf rock, punk, indie) and I’m a diehard fan of a lot of Australian bands. I want to see the whole country top to bottom, and meet new people. Emma is working in Sydney, and I like Sydney a lot, but I don’t really want to stay there my entire trip and miss out on the rest the country has to offer. I’m even thinking about working somewhere in the middle of regional Australia for a few months.
I’m going in June, because I’m pathetic. Emma’s boyfriend will be away for the month. The way I’m rationalizing this to myself, is her boyfriend only wants me staying with them for a few weeks while I find a sharehouse to live in, he’s not keen on me staying for very long (fair, its a small apartment), but Emma wants me to stay as long as possible, so I’d get a free month along with some extra weeks once the boyfriend comes back to find a place. She also mentioned that it would work because she would be lonely without him, which was totally innocent but made me laugh out loud. She’s been so excited for me to come, she came up with the idea in the first place and said that she was barely able to sleep the night I booked the flight. I originally was going to wait to finish school first, but I’ve been stressed living here and balancing work and school, and getting laid off from work felt like a window had opened. Emma was also really pushing for me to come sooner than later, which I thought was a little odd, because I’m the one with all the feelings and I can stand to wait longer than she can? Her devotion to our friendship sometimes feels strange, but it absolutely could just be me projecting.
I see this trip as the way out of my slowly diminishing feelings for her, because it’ll be like exposure therapy. There won’t be a threat of limited time (or AS limited time) anymore, and I can get used to seeing her regularly without it always feeling like a big deal. I’ll also see her happy with someone else, and I can work on killing off the last shreds of hope I have that something will happen between us. The little niggling voice in my head says “its not over! there has to be an explanation for everything that’s happened! You can’t be the only one with SOME kind of feelings” but I desperately want to kill that little part off and just enjoy my time, doing a fun and cool thing I’ve always wanted to do. That being said, this looks so stupid on paper. Am I a complete idiot?
TLDR; Unrequited feelings for LO, history of confessing feelings to her and being rejected. Friendship has historically felt closer than friendship even at the admission of LO In darkest moments, theorize LO has subconscious feelings for me. Going to Australia, where LO is, will be spending time with her but don’t want feelings to take over and actually want to enjoy trip. Advice needed
Hi dumbcanuck,
Iām not sure if you are venting or looking for guidance or looking for validation. I couldnāt figure it out, sorry. I read your story and it sounds like you have been thinking about your feelings for Emma (we would call her a Limerent Object or LO in this community, FYI). I have some thoughts about your story.
I am concerned that LO enjoys the attention you give her and that she will never give you what you seek from her. It sounds like she wants fleeting moments of excitement. You want a lasting connection. I donāt think she will ever change.
I am glad that you are seeing a therapist.
I donāt have good feelings about your upcoming trip. Does her boyfriend know that LO has a history of flirting with you? As long as she is in a long-term relationship with him, he deserves to be treated with respect. It feels shady that LO and you would be alone for a month while he is gone. I feel like that would be a betrayal. Maybe I misunderstood something.
Good luck!
The younger me could’ve written this story. I went through something very similar with a really intense LO experience when I was 19. It took me 15 years to go no contact. And it was a lot of pain. Excitement yes, but at the end, the worst pain I’d ever been in in my life.
I didn’t even like my LO when I first met her. But she was flirtacious with me and I was deeply in the closet. I credit her with a better comfort with my sexuality and her receiving all my thoughts about it. But she was openly firtacious and it confused me and excited me and made me hang onto every time I could see her, on every time I could smell her perfume. To be honest, for the first few years of our friendship, I was as high as a kite. Like you, we hung out constantly and got super close. I was terrified of my feelings for her and I was equally terrified of not feeling them as they were light and airy and everything in my world was right. If she would only just be with me.
It took me 4 years to confess my feelings to her and she shattered my illusions in the most cruel way with a terrible comment about a physical trait. But, she kept flirting with me. So I cried it out and decided to just enjoy the friendship.
Then she got married and I cried some more. If only she would be with me. So I got married and tried to move on. I went No Contact. Then I couldn’t take it anymore so I contacted her again. This time, she came on full-strength physically, even though she was married to a man. I enjoyed the closeness and the flirtation. I caught air again and floated through the world with elation. If only she’d just be with me.
I took a few years and finally confronted her with my feelings again. I brought up all the times she’d flirted with me – they ran like a chronology through my head for years – and she denied all of it. Eventually, after talking through all aspects of our relationship (and our other relationships) and deciding to leave our existing relationships, our relationship became physical. I got everything I desired, right?
Wrong. She was telling me one thing and doing another. She had no intention of leaving her other relationship. In fact, she had no intention of being with me ever, as evidenced by her own words many years earlier. And, by her own actions. We had many opportunities to start up a life together and she took none of those.
And she knew my feelings. She knew my struggles in life. She knew my struggles with my sexuality. And took advantage of all of it.
And that’s what I see going on here. Someone wise told me something at the time I was going through all of that: When you love someone, you move heaven and earth to be with them. You just would. You also wouldn’t be content with having your number one person taking crumbs from you and being in spot #2. This friend is using you. Like my friend, she loves the attention and dedication you give her. But she has no intention of meeting your relationship needs. And in fact, she is quite toxic.
” Iāll also see her happy with someone else, and I can work on killing off the last shreds of hope I have that something will happen between us.”
This is very familiar and one of the biggest reasons I can even attempt to let go of LO and get out of this LE. When I met LO (former co-worker) she was single. I’m married so it was quite easy in the beginning to just see her as a co-worker when I temporarily had to work with her in person for 4 months. The more I got to know her the more I found myself drawn her until the glimmer went BOOM! Shortly after glimmer the work we needed to do was done and I returned the location that I normally work at.
Then I find from another co-worker that LO was seeing a young man. She was recently divorced when I first met her back in 2020. But when I heard this yeah I was bit jealous and lot more protective. Her divorce was bad and her ex was still trying to be a pos in her life even after the divorce. I would check in monthly with her co-workers on how LO and this young man were getting along. Eventually, after 2 years together I realized that I had to accept this and realize from what LO told me this man was good for and made her happy. He is also caring towards LO’s daughters. On her last day I remember sitting in some office chair and LO’s gentleman friend came in and had brought LO, her daughter and her daughter’s friend that were there with LO, snow cones. It was a particularly hot day in June.
When I accepted that LO was happy, that leaving this job/company and starting a new life with this young man and her daughters made it a point where I felt I could finally let go of this limerence eventually. LO has been gone since June of last year. I still get intrusive thoughts of LO and apparently talk in my sleep about her. But it seems to be less frequent than it use to so maybe I can do this.
It is nice that you can still be friends with her. That wasn’t possible for me with LO. One my wife is not too fond of her and two I think that would just make the limerence and obsession worse. I am also afraid I would develop romantic feelings for LO and that would be disastrous. It’s frustrating because we got along and could laugh together. I never really had romantic feeling for LO, I really just wanted to be friends with her. But my stupid brain isn’t going to let that happen. So I loose LO and I loose a friendship. Saying goodbye to LO was the hardest thing I have had to do in life. But it is also the one thing that I had to do for LOs sake. She deserves to be happy even if that means me not being in her life. Prioritizing LO over myself has helped soften the blow. I am glad I made the right decisions, eventually, and that she is happy.
I wish you well with your friendship. I hope that you are able to move on and see her happy with her relationship and that will help drench the flames of limerence finally for you. I know it is what is helping me more than anything with LO that she is in a better place in life from when I met her.
Let Her Go — Passenger
https://youtu.be/VcWqTV7bswY
“well you see her when you fall asleep
but never to touch her and never to keep
cause you loved her too much and you dived to deep”
Some nights it’s really difficult to not give in to the thoughts and imagine a timeline where things went very different. Where she was still here. And not gone.
Here are some things I did in the last couple of days:
1) I spent an hour yesterday looking at all the photos in my phone from the past 5 years. This exercise reminded me of all the good times and happiness I had with SO and other people in my life before the LE started. Iād been feeling like I could never imagine being happy without LO in my life, so it was really helpful to put into perspective that she was really only part of my life for the past few months and I was doing just fine before that and Iāll be just fine again in the future.
2) I made a slide show on my phone using about 50 nice photos of my SO and my kids and set it to nice music. When I start feeling distress related to LO, I can watch it to soothe myself and draw my mind back to SO and my family. Iāve used this a few times already and itās been nice
3) I asked LO (via text) to help me by being direct in her communication with me. I let her know it makes me really anxious if I donāt hear from her at all for a long time, and that it would help me even if she could just send a quick text back like āsorry, really busy today, letās chat tomorrowā. She said she understood and would be happy to work on that
4) I did some work on a yard project Iād been putting off – it felt good to do some physical work outdoors for a couple hours. I also lifted weights for an hour last night and snuck in a walk during my lunch break today
5) I spent extra time playing with my kids
6) I cooked a nice dinner for SO last night. After the kids went to bed, we gave each other back rubs and made love and fell asleep holding each other. I really do love SO very much.
7) Today I saw LO in person for the first time in like a month – she was talking to another coworker (a female, so no feelings of jealousy) in a public area and didnāt see me, and I didnāt approach. I basically had a panic attack – it felt like the temp in the room shot up by 20 degrees, I got sweaty and shaky, and could feel my heart pounding until sheād gone.
8) I spent an hour talking with LO on the phone right after work. As usual we had a great conversation and could have kept talking for hours more. The best part was that we planned the next time weād talk so Iām not left guessing when our next contact will come.
9) I scheduled a phone appointment to meet my new psychologist tomorrow
So anyway – mostly a good couple of days and I think I made progress towards my goals of drawing my heart back to SO, doing things that are healthy for myself, and also working to move my relationship with LO towards what I hope will be a relationship that is fulfilling without being all consuming and anxiety provoking – that last part may or may not actually be possible, but itās what Iām trying to do
All that sounds like great focus on purpose, especially with SO, but I don’t like the phone call part to LO. That feels like working against all the progress you are making. You already do not see LO in person, can you also start to pull back your phone and texting conversations and get to a more NC situation or at least work email only situation if you have to interact professionally? Or are you still pursuing the full EA? It just seems counterproductive to put so much effort into purposeful living with SO but keep hanging on to an EA with LO. DR L talks a lot about slow withdraw of contact, I wonder if you can do this with LO?
Not trying to judge, just hoping to help move you along to a less affair-y kind of place in the spirit of purposeful living.
Speedy makes a good point that the planned phone call seems to be on the EA level, which is concerning, but I like the idea. I think the planned phone call is a good way to cope with rumination. Lost in Space can take some security in knowing when the next contact will happen. It might give him head space to focus on other things instead of worrying about when heāll talk to her again. I actually like the plan. They can take steps to reduce contact, maybe put more time between the planned phone calls.
I can see both sides of this issue. Let us know how it goes, Lost in Space.
Update – I had another phone call with LO on Friday, and again we talked for like an hour and a half and only stopped because we both had to get home to our families. We wanted to talk again on Monday but our schedules didnāt work out. We didnāt plan our next call, but itāll probably be Thursday or Friday because thatās when our schedules match up best. Weāve been texting intermittently throughout the day all week, but all just friendly stuff, no overt expressions of affection and not actively discussing our relationship. The texting lately kinda feels like methadone or suboxone – not enough for a great high, but mostly enough to keep me out of withdrawal (to continue the drug metaphor, the phone calls are like snorting oxys, while the post-disclosure private in-person meetings last month were like mainlining heroin – so I guess weāre following a āharm reductionā strategy for now – still not totally safe, but a lot safer than what we were doing before).
We saw each other once in person today when she brought me some papers (in a public space, not in private) and our interaction was super rushed and awkward – I think after a month and a half of avoiding in-person contact, weāve actually become kind of terrified of each other and we both get super nervous anytime weāre in close proximity, like shy high school kids around their crush. It just feels much more comfortable now to text and talk on the phone. Later in the day she called me on my work phone 3 times to ask questions that normally would have been handled by email – we just talked about the work stuff for a few minutes each time but at least got to hear each othersā voices. More methadone.
Honestly our relationship has gotten pretty weird now, and Iāve started having a few thoughts creep in about it getting to be more trouble than itās worth to keep it up – so hopefully if we keep putting up enough barriers for ourselves and keep the interactions bland enough, weāll eventually just start to lose interest or the limited highs wonāt feel like theyāre worth the trouble and risk.
Meanwhile, I actually had a happy daydream involving SO today! I was texting with both LO and SO simultaneously (kind of dangerous, donāt get the replies crossed!) and SO texted something about remembering a great vacation that weād taken in the past and I texted back that I couldnāt wait to go back there with her someday, and for a few minutes my thoughts were actually fully occupied with a daydream about traveling with SO (which normally is one of my favorite things to daydream about) and that daydream actually felt more compelling and satisfying than the chat I was having with LO.
And then I spent awhile thinking about all the times SO and I have daydreamed together about someday retiring and buying a camper van and just traveling around together for a couple of years, and how much I still love that dream and how much I still want to do that with SO, and how doing the wrong thing with LO could kill that dream forever.
Soā¦ still a long ways from perfection, but hopefully making some progress?
Thanks for the update, Lost in Space. It sounds like you are moving in the right direction. I love that you were able to enjoy SO more than LO when you had contact with both of them. That is huge! I love that you remember your future dreams with SO that you donāt want to jeopardize by crossing the line with LO. Lots of progress! Keep it up.
The drug analogies were amusing and educational. Thanks for sharing.
“I spent extra time playing with my kids”
I find myself doing this and it is really helping. My youngest recently got back into playing an online game that I do too and we have been doing that almost every evening after I get home from work. I also have started calling or chatting with my oldest (in college) on discord. Both have been a nice wholesome distraction to keep my mind off LO.
For me planned phone calls, any phone calls with LO would just escalate the limerence. NC is about the only way I can go. Its been 9 damn months and I can’t get her out of my head comepletly.
I wonder if an abrupt NC causes the limerent to get stuck. Thatās why the phone calls appeal to me. I could be wrong. I did the limerent dance with LO1 for 17 years. On and off limerence. It was rough. Now that I think about it, the best times were during long periods of no contact OR when contact wasnāt triggering. But contact was almost always triggering. Hmmmm, maybe you boys are right about the phone calls being a bad idea.
The one time LO called me I was elated for a month probably. Told my wife excitedly when I got home from work that I got to talk to her and that she was doing well, and they were still doing well together and her daughters were doing well too. I was very bad after that phone call of hiding the level of limerence I was feeling and not showing concern how my wife felt about the contact. Granted I didn’t initiate it, but I sure as hell did try to keep the conversation with LO going for as long as I possibly could. And not surprisingly this also started the talking in my sleep again. Something that hadn’t happened in a while before.
No matter how much I still hope LO will contact me, deep down in the rational part of my mind I know it would be a disaster that could possibly end the relationship I am in now. I know my wife has a limit. I guess we just haven’t reached it yet. And I now know my limits. This limerence and LO has tested my integrity as a person on every level. Testing my limits and my self control. Which the later is really killing my will.
Honestly I donāt know if this plan is going to work or not, but Iām gonna try it. Iām just not ready for NC. My goal is to intentionally nurture my relationship with SO and with myself (the grass is greenest where you water it) while keeping my relationship with LO as steady and predictable as possible – I think itās the hot/cold and wondering when the next contact will come that drives me so crazy. Hopefully we can settle into a routine of some light texting most workdays and a couple of hour long phone calls per week, and eventually weāll start to just lose momentum and the EA will die of natural causes rather than be killed abruptly.
I think the biggest danger to watch out for will be us getting complacent and saying āweāre doing so well, we can start hanging out alone in person again and weāll be able to handle itā
Anyway, I donāt know if this plan will work or not, but Iāll keep you all updated
I can understand that plan. Cold turkey is hard and perhaps not the best strategy in the long run. I’ll back your play. You want what I want except…light off work hours texting just to keep a nice personal connection. Problem is, I’m not sure my LO wants that because she is much more sensitive than I about ‘disrespecting’ her husband by secretive interactions with me. She has a point. I have thought about what she would say if I asked her if she wanted to text some, but I don’t want to text her if she is doing it in front of her husband. Yuk! Also, being her boss, I also never quite can tell what is sincerity and what might be her playing along out of a sense of obligation? It’s just a bad scenario me initiating texting so I stay away from it now and I don’t think she will ever initiate.
But I have nice in person interactions, but those are easy because she is not also limerent for me. She just has a platonic affection.
I hardly ever dream about LO, but last night I had a big one. Time to play dream interpretation.
Starts out LO and I are working on a significant project in an office (not our office, some random office setting) with other people around, including the client. We are getting some reports together and I keep sending LO off to do tasks. When she comes back she is very touchy with me in a playful fashion, putting her arm around me, hugging me. It felt incredible.
Then the dream pivots and we have to go together to deliver the reports to another office. When I walk in the office door I close it before LO can enter and lock it. I do this to be silly with her but the man at the front desk scolds me. I open the door back up. LO and I sit on the waiting couch and I have a bag with me with stuff in it. I take out my phone from the back and it’s broken in half. Clean in half. I’m annoyed. But then LO decides she is going to take a nap while we wait and grabs a blanket from the couch, lays down, and puts her bare feet up in my lap. I start massaging her feet. Again, feels incredible. But then I look at her again and all of a sudden it’s not LO feet I am rubbing my one of my real life buddies. Yikes!!!
The dream pivots again and I am outside the office in the parking lot ready and there are a bunch of people there having a party and hanging out. I try to find LO because I want to leave and go get my phone fixed. I finally find her back inside the lobby but she says she wants to stay and will see me later. But she says it in a more relationship affectionate way and gives me a hug. This hug was long and deep and I remember thinking how thin her waist felt. Again felt incredible. Then I woke up.
Here’s my thoughts…the work setting is a true setting to our relationship. Having clients around and working on a project together is also true. Going out on an out of office outings is also true. My dream is just reflecting some real life scenarios here.
Me shutting the door on her playfully and then being scolded for it is me half heartedly trying to shut her from my life but I am not doing it seriously. The scolding represents the fact that I am actually not able to do this because she is my employee who I gave to interact with.
The broken phone represents our broken texting communication now. I want to fix it but I can’t and she would not go with me to fix it.
All the hugging represents her warmth to me and my desire for her physical touch actually playing out in the dream. But when I was rubbing her feet and it was my buddy all of a sudden, this represents my shame in desiring physical contact from a woman not my wife and my buddy is my conscience.
Overall…great dream in that I got to experience some physical contact with LO. Woke with a smile on my face.
Also, I may have dreamed about her because I am meeting her SO tonight for first time. That is heavy on my mind.
I love it! That is laugh-out-loud funny. Thanks for sharing. Your interpretation sounds accurate.
Send good vibes and well wishes. I’m about 6 hours away from meeting LOs SO and having them in my home. I feel the anxiety building. I’ll hold it together, but not excited about it. Will be interesting to see how LO navigates the evening because she will be anxious too
Speedwagon – Time to use every acting skill you have at your disposal – youāll need to act calm and not anxious but also not too happy and excited and avoid letting the limerent energy show to everyone in the room. Monitor your behavior constantly throughout the evening. Best of luck! Iāll be sending positive vibes your way
Iām sending calm vibes. Take some deep breaths. You can do this, Speedwagon. You are a grown man. Good luck, and keep us posted.
Good luck. Must be so hard but hope it goes well.
I made it thru the get together just fine. Meeting LOs husband was not bad at all and having LO around my wife was fine too. Ironically, we all went to this activity thing where there was assigned seating. I was between my wife and LO…lol.
LOs husband is a nice guy, we talked briefly and he was in on a few other group convos. My wife is very social so she gained the attention of a lot of people all night including LO.
The most difficult thing about a get together like that outside the office is the same thing about any new setting with LO, it is experiencing her out of my routine. I see her in a new and interesting way and then I desire her more. This is what I am left feeling like right now. And she is probably thinking that my wife is fantastic, what kind of idiot am I for having romantic feelings for her.
Well, at least that hurdle is over. Back to the routine.
Thanks for the update, Speedwagon. My SO and I were both eager to hear about your evening. Thanks for sharing the side effects, too. It hadnāt crossed my mind that seeing LO in new settings would have that effect. That is good information.
Thanks, Lovisa. The scene played out really like any other scene with LO, it becomes about her be cause that is what limerence does. I could make her SO and my SO fade into the background and my inner attention focuses on LO. That is kind of how the night went inwardly for me. Outwardly I kept it together and was the perfect host, talking to various people.
If you remember, LO is in a bit of a disappointing marriage with her SO from a 50-50 life partner standpoint. He is unemployed, and from what I could sense last night, and my wife sensed the same, he has a bit of an immaturity to him and was a bit introverted. He stayed more on the sidelines of group conversations.
But he was a really nice guy so I cannot despise him like I would prefer.
My wife made the rounds and talked a lot with various people. She is social and engaging in all the right ways. She really makes me look good. At one point LO told me that my wife is really nice and beautiful also. I have to agree…she is amazing and I like to show her off.
This reminds me of something funny.
āThe scene played out really like any other scene with LO, it becomes about her because that is what limerence does. I could make her SO and my SO fade into the background and my inner attention focuses on LO.ā
My LO1 told me that when we had our couples dates, he felt like he was on a double date with me and he wished the other couple would leave. As in, he wished our SOs would leave so we could be alone. Kinda funny.
Your wife sounds amazing! I am so happy for you. I know that limerence makes no sense to an outsider when the SO is a great person. But it makes sense to me. Remember, I am also married to an incredible SO.
Too bad that LOās SO is out of work. That would be hard. I hope he finds something soon unless they have an agreement that he will be the homemaker. Itās fine if they go that route, but it sounds like his unemployment is unintentional.
“Too bad that LOās SO is out of work. That would be hard. I hope he finds something soon unless they have an agreement that he will be the homemaker. Itās fine if they go that route, but it sounds like his unemployment is unintentional”
He actually quit a job he found unfulfilling. That was 6 months ago. Work is plentiful where we live. He could get a job but he is trying to find a career. He does not have a college degree so he has been out of luck with better options. They live with his parents. It has taken a toll on LO. He is part of the problem and that is why the rescue fantasy has played a part of my LE.
Oh boy, that is a recipe for disaster. Your rescue fantasy makes sense. I feel for LO. One of my friends from high school endured a situation like that for 5 years. As if that wasnāt bad enough, her SO was a Mamaās boy. He and his mom made her feel like an outsider. She gave up and left. Sheās doing much better now. I think he still lives with his mom.
Speedwagon i think your comments around seeing LO in a new setting are very true. I had a couple out of routine interactions recently and more are coming up – they really are a challenge.
Especially in bigger group functions i find myself constantly looking out for what LO is doing or who she is talking to. I now try to sit or stand in positions where i cannot see her or the distraction is too high. Smaller settings are worse as there is no escaping her.
As usual – the after-event crash is terrible. Thats why i try to limit seeing her or what she is doing if at all possible. Baby steps but hopefully progress.
Well done for getting through it. Hope that the after-event feelings or lows are not too low for you.
Hang in there, Vee. It will get better. I can tell a huge difference in myself right now from 6 months ago. The in person interactions become less euphoric, more normalized. The crash later has subsided. That is why the routine with LO is so important, it keeps things normal. You will get there with LO as long as she acts predictable. My LO is fairly predictable so I try not to stray outside that boundary into something that would make me have a more personal and intimate encounter with her.
This Friday marks 1 year since the initial glimmer. It happened over a lunch out with LO and another person in the office. What a wild year it has been, probably the most emotionally draining and topsy-turvy of my life. But I feel the worst is behind me.
Miss Lovisa
Momma is sick tonight for some reason. She vomited and her stomach is not good. So I made something that she said would calm it. She is laying on the couch right now. While I was making what she wanted this came in my music shuffle on youtube. Why cant I let her go?
Look What Youāve Done ā Bread
https://youtu.be/MVLUQujHJ8A
Adam,
As LIS said above, “Hey, what are anonymous Internet forums good for if not for allowing us to be open? š”
For me, LwL is a form of electronic diary. I have little doubt that if LO #2 or LO #4 found it and read my posts, they’d have no doubt who I was talking about. They don’t matter. I don’t think my wife is likely to randomly stumble upon LwL.
But, if she did…
Song of the Thread: “Diary” – Bread (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NYI1_J_fX0
I was 16 when this was released and thought it as corny as it gets. As a married former limerent with a history, it takes on a whole new meaning. It’s not corny, it’s sad.
Imagine your SO finding LwL and figuring out it’s you.
My wife’s the best thing that ever happened to me and I don’t want the idea that I’d be happier anywhere else with anyone else in the same time zone with her. And, yet, some feelings are hard to kill off.
And, if you do tell your SO about LwL, asking them to not visit it is like an invitation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic_process_theory
Youāre funny, Limerent Emeritus.
āAnd, if you do tell your SO about LwL, asking them to not visit it is like an invitation.ā
Both my SO and Adamās SO know about LwL.
My SO guiltily confessed to visiting LwL and downloading the help guide for spouses of limerents. He hasnāt confessed to anything else, yet, but Iām pretty sure itās just a matter of time. He does ask about you all and I tell him. I didnāt tell him about LwL initially, he snooped on my phone. He was desperate. Itās understandable.
I did print some posts of Dr L in regards to spouses of limerents. But if she has visited here (and sheād know my username) she has not voiced it.
Kudos on Bread. I like so much of their music.
I know theres no woman better for me than her. She retarted my debilitating alcoholism and stabilized me being a functioning human. And yet as you say I canāt get thoughts of LO out of my head.
For momma
Everything I Own āBread
https://youtu.be/b-CHW9jOfN0
LE
I get that. Momma means the world to me too. And yes if she found out about this place sheād know it was me just by username much less context.
I hope she dosent come here despite her knowing its existence from my own volition. The things Ive admitted here would be hard to swallow for any spouse. And she is the only reason im functional. Shes kept me alive.
Adam,
Moving on…
https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-limerents-feel-guilty-about-their-limerence/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-do-limerents-feel-guilty/
Those are pretty early blogs but they generated surprisingly few comments.
If you make it through guilt, you might be ready to move on to Obligation.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/obligation/
Good morning, Adam.
You canāt let her go because thoughts of her are an effective escape from the mundane realities of life. You are also stuck in a pattern of behavior. And you really really miss how she made you feel accepted, validated and like you could contribute to her well being. Letās address those needs.
You are contributing to your wifeās wellbeing. Maybe it isnāt as satisfying because maybe she doesnāt show appreciation? I donāt know. But, you are the type of man who wonāt give up on someone he loves which means you wonāt give up on your wife which is pretty cool. I wonder if you can give yourself appreciation for your efforts. āHey Adam, you take good care of Momma. You rock!ā Sometimes I give myself āatta girlā moments when I need a little extra motivation to run. It might work for you, too.
The sexlessness is going to increase that need to feel accepted, I think. And Momma aināt gonna fix this problem, yet. I canāt think of a way to to help you feel accepted in your real world, but hopefully youāre getting some of that need filled here. The core commenters seem to like you here and your comments are helpful and relevant. That is worth noticing.
Letās seeā¦ how can we get you some validation? I know what works for women. We need to feel heard. It would look something like thisā¦
Lovisa says, āI couldnāt stop thinking about LO3 yesterday. He posted a picture of his strength training progress and his body is amazing! I canāt get him off my mind.ā
A friend would basically repeat what I said in their own words with similar energy to mine. Something like this. āOh my, he posted a picture of his strength training progress? I assume it was shirtless. Youāve told me how attractive he is. Yikes, I can see how you got fixated on the image.ā
It just feels so good to feel like someone understands us. I donāt know yet if it is much different for men. I actually think itās the same, but we do operate a little differently, so it could be different.
So hereās my attempt at validating your experience.
Too bad that Momna is sick. Itās cool that she has you to take care of her. I suspect that you like taking care of her. I can see why that song threw you off a little. It would throw anyone off if they were in your position.
I hope that helps.
Sometimes it does feel nice when she needs me like when she was sick last night. Sometimes its a burden when I have to do everything that needs to be done outside the house because she wont leave. Its a maddening combination.
Yes I wont give up on momma or LO because I love them both so much. I will do anything for both of them. They mean so much to me.
With your comment on pictures; Miss Lovias I am ashamed to admit Ive had those kinds of thoughts of LO. Im always quick to try and reprogram. But its been happening lately and I feel bad for it. Shes just a wonderful woman and to think those things about her is terrible of me. Im not a good man.
Adam, you are a normal man who is trying to be better. Shame wonāt help either of us reach our goals to be a good spouse. Shame leads us to our bad coping skills.
Hereās something that usually helps me get out of ruminationā¦
I tell myself that daydreams of LO build neural pathways in my brain. Eventually those pathways will become intrusive thoughts. I really donāt want intrusive thoughts of LO3 to take over my mind like they did with LO2. It was awful! I couldnāt get him out of my head and since he was hot and cold, the thoughts were painful. That usually motivates me enough to stop daydreaming. But sometimes I am guilty of enjoying the daydream. I will keep trying.
Hereās a thought. I like how Lost in Space is trying to redirect his LO thoughts to happy times with his wife. I think Iāll try this again. I tried it with LE2 because I hoped to transfer my limerence to my SO, but it didnāt work then. Iāll try it now. My SO and I have become very close recently. He is trying so hard to be attentive now that he knows I was trying to fill an emotional intimacy void with other men. Maybe I can focus on my SO in my daydreams instead of LO. Iām going to try that today.
Also, you owe me a walk today. Donāt forget. Iāll take anything. If you walk outside for five minutes, Iāll be thrilled! If itās more, thatās great too. I want to hear about it.
Adam, I just thought of a way for you to feel accepted. Go to AA. It is awesome! There are people from all classes of society who just accept and encourage each other. You donāt have to stop drinking to attend AA either. I remember once, I watched two men carry a woman into an NA meeting. She was going through withdrawal. Her whole body was convulsing. She shook through the whole meeting. It was humbling to witness. I love those meetings. Everyone is broken and honest about it. The feelings are raw. I used to go to NA and AA with a friend who was coming off of cocaine. I also used to take my kidsā birth-mom to addiction recovery meetings which was a similar experience. I absolutely love that atmosphere. Just a thought.
I know I am being a headache with my bright ideas. I hope you know that itās because I care and I want to help. Iāll accept you either way.
First off Miss Lovisa I took my walk. Twice actually. And it was cold too! I walked to the corner store (about 2 miles from the house) to get momma some broth to ease her stomach and I had a craving for Mike & Ike candy
Then I got home and she needed some egg noodles so I went back. I would like if I could love both LO and my wife and that would be ok. But I think momma hates LO and LO is avoiding me because she might have an inkling of how I feel about her.
My wife isnt as receptive to this situation that your husband is. I wish she was. You thank him Miss Lovisa. Hes a good man to be understanding of this. And if hes a drinking man if we ever meet Ill buy him a pint. If not we can do coffee.
I will consider your thoughts on an AA meeting. I do find purpose in helping others. Thank you Miss Lovisa you are a blessing to this world. Mr L is a very lucky man.
Thatās really cute, Adam. You made my evening. I am so proud of you that you went for a walk twice and I love the reasons behind it. Thanks for considering AA, too. And thanks for giving Momma the credit she deserves for taking care of you for all these years.
I read your comment to my SO. (I replaced āLovisaā with my real name because I havenāt told my SO my alias on LwL. If he read the comments, he would easily pick me out.). He liked your message and he would enjoy a visit with you, too. We donāt drink coffee or alcohol. We still socialize plenty, but it doesnāt revolve around drinks. But, seriously, thank you. Both of us would enjoy hanging out with you and Momma. You seem like good people. We will probably only ever know each other as Adam and Lovisa, but itās nice to know that the intention is there. I hope that makes sense.
My SO says that he is trying to be patient and supportive, but he doesnāt always get it right. I disagree, I think he gets it right.
Iām so proud of you!
I agree with you Miss Lovisa, I think Mr L does get it right and it is very understanding of him to try and grasp something that is not familiar to him for your sake. He truly does love and care for you. And that’s wonderful.
It seems that is going to turn into a nice day weather wise, so I may just take a walk this evening after I get home from work. It will be a good habit to get back into.
LE,
“Why canāt we stop being so overwrought and just hang out with them as a friend? Are we really so weak-willed that we have to cut them out of our lives completely? I mean, itās not their fault weāre so emotionally incontinent that we canāt spend time with them without getting tangled up like a ball of string that a catās been at.”
Of what links you posted this part here hurts the worst. I could have just been a friend to her like my other female and male co-workers. Why was it different with her? Now I can’t be nothing to her. I don’t know now if I ever made her uncomfortable with my obsession. She’s a wonderful person. Why did I have to ruin what could have been a normal friendly relationship? And why can’t I get over this guilt? It’s not being helpful the way I am using it. Why when I am doing all the right things in action am I beating myself up over my thoughts? I haven’t once contacted her. I’ve never tried to see her in person. Two things I could do if I wanted. I didn’t look her up on social media but once to make sure she and her daughters were doing okay.
I feel bad that I compromised her otherwise normal interaction with me by this obsession. Why can’t I just be normal with her? Did I push her to leave? Was she uncomfortable around me at some point? I just wanted to help her and her to be happy. I didn’t mean for this to happen. But it did.
I donāt think you scared her away. I donāt think she saw her interactions with you as anything concerning. I suspect that she liked the attention and enjoyed your company. I also suspect that she doesnāt know how deeply she effected you. She would probably be sad if she knew you were struggling. I have proof that she liked your company in an appropriate way. I can prove that she saw you as a pleasant presence in her life. Are you curious how I can prove it?
You have to earn it. Iāll tell you how I know, but first I want to hear about a walk today. Oh boy, now Lovisa is getting playful. I am playing a game with you and I hope thatās okay. But I really do have an answer to your question.
Ready? Set? Walk
I am curious now Miss Lovisa of how you can tell me that LO liked my company.
When I get home I will take my walk and tell you about it so I can find this out.
And yes it is okay with me to play a game with you.
Adam,
“I am curious now Miss Lovisa of how you can tell me that LO liked my company.”
That’s a question you probably don’t really want to indulge in. You can kill hours on it and it rarely doesn’t do much except make the LE worse.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/do-they-like-me-too/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/
You’re all over the map.
Deal!
LE
I started off this morning with a very good mindset to concentrate on my job and be productive. And I have for the most part been able to do so. I know this is playing with fire. Maybe by the time I get home and do my walk I will be thinking clearly better. I am very curious about what Miss Lovisa knows more so than the actual answer if LO liked my company or not.
I would never want to think that I made her uncomfortable or at unease with my obsession. I always thought that I did well in keeping that under wraps but it seems I wasn’t as stealthy as I thought.
Thank you for the links I read both posts. And I have to say that Dr L is right. I’ve overthought the whole scenario in my head more than I would like to admit as to whether I could have done something differently and therefor for the better since LO told me she put in her notice. Like any relationship that has to end I hope that it ended on good terms and overall the person has a positive view of said relationship.
Miss Lovisa I took my walk finally after getting some errands done. I probably walked about 3-4 miles tonight. Now Im going to make something to eat.
Thank you, Adam! You made my day. It was a really rough day so I am glad we had our game for me to look forward to. I spent the day running errands with my mom. It was actually all her errands. I was driving her from appointment to appointment from 11:30 to 5:30. She said some bad things about my dad. It hurt my feelings. It hurts every time. I wish she would stop bad-mouthing my dad. I lost my temper and yelled at her. Ugh!
Here is the proof that LO left with a high opinion of you. She told you when her last day would be and she was receptive to you visiting her. If she didnāt like you, she would have left quietly. See, I told you that she liked your attention. You didnāt creep her out. She left on good terms. I hope that helps.
Thank you for going on a walk. Did you like it? I hope you had some yummy food afterwards.
Sorry I missed replying to you Miss Lovisa. Im sorry that you had that rapport with your mother. And thank you. Im just thankful that she doesnt think bad of me. I know she will never feel the same things I do, due to the limerence. But as with anyone I am glad to know that she doesnt think of me in a bad light if she does think about me at all.
Yes, if I remember right I made a turkey panini on rye with some kind of soup. Very good indeed.
No problem on the delayed response, Adam. Mmmm, a turkey panini on rye sounds so good! Now Iām hungry, lol.
Iām having a bad day. Why canāt I get her out of my head? Why can this woman bring me to my knees? Itās been 9 damn months!
Hey Adam,
Hang in there. I know how you must feel. Its so hard when you cannot get her out of your head and really want to.
Some advise that has worked for me – i really have enjoyed mindfulness meditation – there are plenty of 10 minute youtube videos. I have found that i get some temporary relief from watching them.
The other thing i love doing is reading this blog – it helps remind me i am not the only one suffering like this and that others are feeling similar things.
Take comfort that you have been forced into no contact. As someone who is forced into contact every week i can tell you that i am so aware that this is making the limerence worse not better. I dont have the no contact card to pull (and given where my own situation is now, i dont think i would have the courage to do it, but i am convinced it is the best way to eventually make the limerence subside).
Hang in there. And post on here if you struggling – we all here for you to help any way we can.
Vee I wish I could see her everyday. Im reminded of a quote I saw ā āI miss you so much Im jealous of the people that get to see you every day.ā
But I know NC is the only way Ill get through this. I just wish I could. Ive resisted contact, even social media.
I am eternally grateful to Dr L and all yall that comment. I spent over a year in limerence not knowing what the hell was wrong with me. If there is indeed a God he has blessed me with you people.
Adam, my heart really goes out to you when I read some of your posts and when I know that you are suffering.
I still reckon it will pass in time. It is seemingly such an agonisingly slow process. I am full of empathy.
Iāve posted a few recent cries of pain myself. I can feel the faintest whiff of the infatuation beginning to fade, however. I sincerely hope that this will happen to you too. Different circumstances, different people, I know.
All very best wishes
F
Frederico Im sorry I saw blue and thought it was Miss Lovisa. Thank you for kind words. I just didnt want you to think I wasnt appreciative.
Why wonāt she love me? Am I undesirable? Am I not good enough? Thank you Vee for your suggestions and will look into them. And yes I constantly read old posts here to try and help. Miss Lovisa Im sorry Im not sober. Did I hurt her? Is that why she wont call? Am I overthinking this too much? What is wrong with me?
Hey Adam, I have to keep this short because SO is taking me running. (Fingers crossed that my knee holds up without pain.).
You are one of the most big-hearted people I have ever met. You are incredible! You have a difficult dynamic with SO right now, but I think both of you are decent people and I think youāll get through it.
You can be as intoxicated as you want, Iām still here and I still care.
But do us both a favor and sober up enough to go for a walk. Invite Momma. Accept her response and go by yourself if you have to.
I hope your husband and you had a goos run Miss Lovisa. I know how you like running. You know Miss Lovisa I ran track in high school. Did a bit better at endurance than short spurts. Ive got a marahon to run with LO. Maybe I can make the finish line.
Yes! Sign up for a marathon. You can lose yourself in training. Itās so fun. I prefer endurance runs, too. I was doing a half marathon a week among my other runs until I hurt my knee. This injury is so frustrating!
Adam, I am an idiot! I ran off with another man. Let me explainā¦
SOās pace is slower than mine. Before we went running, we decided to separate to meet our individual goals. At the turn-around, we met another runner. His pace matched my goal pace so I ran with him. I didnāt think I would stay with him for so long, but the conversation was nice and I had enough time to do some extra miles. My 3-mile run with SO turned into a 10-mile run with another man. But itās just friendly. The other man is young enough to be my son.
Anyway, SO is avoiding me. He left for a walk and hasnāt come home yet. Ugh. I need to apologize to him. I feel so insecure right now.
Adam-
I am sorry you are in pain. I have been following your story, and like Lovisa see your goodness and kindness.
I am going to suggest that it is not āthis womanā who is bringing you to your knees- but rather your IDEA of this woman. You have built her up to be a fantasy women- perhaps a fantasy relationship. From your posts it doesnāt sound like you had a deep relationship with this person- but perhaps I am reading it wrong.
Most likely she is not calling you because she isnāt thinking about you. She is just living her life- probably focusing on her children and her new partner. It is possible that you are a minor character in her life.
I am NOT saying that to be mean. You are a major character in many peopleās lives. Many people love you, care about you and want to connect with you. However, she is not one of those people.
Lovisa is right in urging you to focus on yourself. Focus on going for a walk. Focus on watching a good movie, focus on cooking dinner- or something that gives you joy.
I think you need to start recognizing that you are obsessing about a person that isnāt quite real- which to be honest- weāve all probably done before. But- thatās dangerous territory- especially when you start measuring your worth to their attention.
Take care of yourself. Be kind to yourself. Be gentle. You are a very important person to those who love you- even if they forget to express it in the day to day!
Keep reaching out. We all support each other- right! Youāve got this. One day at a time.
We ate together. I made some deer meat chili (which she wont eat) and salad. I chopped up some turkey to go in her salad the way she wanted. Though Im suspect about this woman as she prefers ranch over blu cheese. You cant trust people that like ranch over blu cheese in my opinion lol
Seeing LO as LO really is, going to be difficult. But Im going to try to see her realistically someday.
Hi Adam-
Apologies for this late rely! Busy day with kid activities.
I think you should be really proud of yourself. Yesterday was hard but you pulled it together and did something meaningful with your SO. I hope you are giving yourself credit for that. Also deer chili sounds delicious!
Did you feel better afterwards? I hope to today went better.
What are three small goals you have for the week? Something that has to do with you- ideally something that has made you happy in the past.
Here are mine-
Go on three jogs throughout the week.
Start reading a new book.
Put a little extra love/thought into my children’s lunches.
Your turn. Lovisa?
I love your idea, Coldwater!
I might try to let my knee recover this week. No running, ugh! Iāll ride my bike instead.
Iāll cook beef and broccoli sometime this week because it sounded really good today.
Iāll listen to more kid music like Sandra Boynton because I love how it makes me feel cheerful.
Hi Limmy! I hope youāre well. I know you are going through a rough patch, and my heart goes out to you.
Well said, Coldwater! You sound like Limmy, lol.
I’ll take that as a compliment. š
Darlings! You remember me.
I just got all caught up with your news. As always, silently supporting all of you.
Miss Lovisa
I wouldnt worry. If I was your husband I wouldnt see you matching pace with another man in a race badly. It just means you have a faster pace and more endurance.
But I also understand how he might feel about him being younger and chatting you up. We boys tend to feel quite insecure even after we have secured you ladies. And as we get older we try harder to feel relevant to you in hopes you dont forget about us.
And yet here are a good many of us men here with younger LOs. Lifeās one hell of a ride. And somedays Im ready to get off and sit on the sidelines.
Thanks, that helps. I need to prove to him that he is my favorite person in the whole world because he is my favorite. Itās repulsive to imagine myself in a relationship with a younger man. No offense to young male lurkers, but that just has no appeal to me. Young men have no depth. I like men my age or older. A young man would be like having grape juice when you want wine (not that I really know). Thanks for telling me that husbandās worry about becoming obsolete. Iāll try to think of a way to help my husband feel secure. I think his insecurities stem from my disclosure or it could just stem from my limerence because before disclosure he sensed that something wasnāt right. Anyway, SO watched me run with the other man and he said our body language was telling. The other man kept getting closer to me and I kept creating space between us until we were running on the wrong side of the pedestrian trail. I donāt think it meant anything concerning, but it bothered my husband a lot. And the fact that he thinks I could be attracted to a younger man is just crazy. Ewe! Now, if it had been a same-age man, I probably wouldnāt have run with him because I would have seen a red flag from the start, hopefully I would recognize the problem. I am really questioning my judgment.
About my husband feeling insecure. Since I disclosed my limerence, he is running again and he is doing CrossFit. He said he is doing it to win back my attention. He thinks the limerence is his fault. I feel guilty because I know it has nothing to do with him. But I also love that he is taking care of himself. Ironically, LO3 told me that this has been one of his best fitness years, weāve been talking for almost a year. Itās weird to think about.
Thanks Adam!
I’m gonna be blunt. The timing of you running off with another guy is not great. Considering you just disclosed to your SO. He’s feeling insecure. He’s needing for you to put him first. You have to stop thinking from your point of view (ie. I’m not interested in younger men, so no big deal) to your SO’s point of view (ie. my wife just told me she has a thing for another man, and now she’s off with another guy? What the heck?) It is not a question of the truth or reasonableness, these are emotions we are talking about. If I were your husband, I would feel bad. How would you fix it? Stick with me for that run even if I am not at your “pace”.
Thanks Hedge, you are right. I will try to be more considerate of my SO.
Thought I would share today about what’s going on. Friday was 1 year since my first glimmer moment with LO and as of today I feel like my LE is fading fast. I no longer feel distressed or have depressive emotions over LO. It’s weird how this is happening and I am pleasantly surprised and pleased by it. It’s been fairly sudden and unexpected. I still feel attracted to LO and intrusive thoughts are still present. But they also are not distressing to me at the moment.
I think a couple things have helped…for one disclosure helped. It removed my uncertainty and the burden of my secret infactuation. I was lucky that did losure didn’t blow things up with LO, I would not recommend it, but it did help my emotions. Second, I have become better friends with another woman in my office who I think very highly of and she has become a nice distraction to LO. Almost like I am transferring a romantic LE to a healthy friendship with another woman. I know there is a danger of having a glimmer for this new woman and I am well aware now of glimmer circumstances, but I really don’t feel romantic desire for her, just friendship.
So I am proceeding with cautious optimism and still going to keep to my LC boundaries with LO. But as of right now…I feel the fog has lifted and it’s so relieving. Unbelievable!
Hey Speedwagon
You are my hero. Well done! I hope that i will be able to share a post like this at some stage – its pretty inspiring to see where you are now and how you have navigated a really tough situation and come out the otherside.
“I feel the fog has lifted and it’s so relieving” – that is so cool.
Hi Speedwagon-
I just replied, but it didn’t post. Hopefully, I won’t have two messages that say the same thing. That is wonderful news! I have been following your story for a long time- and wow- what a difference from your posts around the New Year. I think it is so helpful that you outlined what worked for you. I would love to hear how the lifting of the fog is impacting your relationship with your SO. Do you feel a little less shiny in the world? When you think back on how you felt under the spell of limerence what do you feel? I think there are a lot of people on this site who would benefit from hearing how things are on the other side!
It’s just as strange to feel limerence fading as when it first hit me. And I can’t quite put my finger on why this is happening all of a sudden. Nothing has really changed much in our relationship.
I don’t think I feel less shiny in the world, I see LO 4 days a week still and I still enjoy seeing her and still feel immensely attracted to her. But the attraction no longer trigger euphoric highs or depressive lows. Lady week I felt a bit of a let down over something with her, but the let downs are easy to get over now.
My LE brought me closer to my SO and I feel intent to keep that close relationship intact. I don’t feel less affection for SO at the moment. I’ll need to monitor that over the coming weeks. I want my relationship with SO to stay really good for years to come, LE or no LE.
Here are a few things I am noticing in myself regarding my LE starting about a month back…
1) A lot less depressive emotions. In fact they feel all but gone. For a long while I was feeling just blah and melancholy, but the last couple weeks I almost feel cheery again.
2) Starting to see actual flaws in LO that bug me. She is rather aloof, kind of relationally superficial, and very poor at good conversation. When we were texting, she texted like a teenage girl. It used to be endearing. Now it just seems immature. This other woman I am getting to know better is opposite in about every way and I think I appreciate it much, much more.
3) I realized my LE attraction to LO was very sexually driven but I now seem to have given up that fantasy and I’m not left with a whole lot to drive my LE.
4) LO still acts very friendly and warm to me, maybe even more so since I disclosed, and I am actually starting to enjoy it without it meaning anything to me.
5) Not texting with LO anymore is a huge help. It was a main drive of my euphoric highs and depressive lows. Since we stopped my moods have dramatically improved.
6) Airing all this out on LwL has been a huge help and getting everyone’s support is invaluable. I know it can sometimes seem like dwelling on limerence here is maybe not so healthy all the time, but I found this place to be a great emotional release and place of encouragement over the last few months.
7) Last, and most important, I think it just took time and discipline. I put a lot of LC discipline in and it’s now starting to show positive affects.
I hope this keeps getting better. It will take continued management and cooperation from LO not to pursue me at all. Hoping for the best.
@Speedwagon
So great to read this! I remember when the limerence started to fade, and the intrusive thoughts were abating, and the distress reduced, I was over the moon!
Yes to #7 all the way.
Remember, there can be small set backs (eg. I had a small one when I heard my LO was enlisting and putting himself in mortal danger) but getting back to the new equilibrium is easier now that you’ve touched it.
Good luck!
Speedwagon
That is really good news to hear. It gives me hope that I can get over this someday. Hoping that you will still post updates here now that you are on the other side of this limerence thing. Very glad for you!
Thank you to everyone that contributed to helping me through this weekend. It was bad. I ended up seeing someone that looked like and reminded me of LO and it was hard to shake. My unhealthy coping mechanism didn’t help either. Well it did, but not in the long run. I appreciate all yall advice. It helped me cope better than I would have if I had tried to do it on my own.
I also made it through another weekend without calling/texting LO or checking her social media. I feel like I am doing the right things but I don’t I feel better about the limerence. I still miss her badly and still get the intrusive thoughts. I’m trying to see her realistically like Coldwater said and like how Speedwagon can now out of the glimmer.
I will try and take a walk for the next three days when I get home from work. It is going to be nice weather until we get some rain on Thursday. I will play a game with my youngest son. And I will try to think of something to do with my wife this week. Maybe I can even find something even if it’s for a short time that we can do together each day.
“I am going to suggest that it is not āthis womanā who is bringing you to your knees- but rather your IDEA of this woman. You have built her up to be a fantasy women- perhaps a fantasy relationship. From your posts it doesnāt sound like you had a deep relationship with this person- but perhaps I am reading it wrong.”
Coldwater, this really helped. I tried to think on it a lot after you posted it. She’s not the perfect angel that I think she is. She is a wonderful and kind lady but she has flaws just like any of us do. It’s hard to try and admit but I am trying to be realistic with myself in regards to LO. I think it might help me get my head on straight so that I can concentrate my mind and energy on my wife. I am very grateful for your post.
Speedwagon,
I like that you are leaning into a relationship with a new woman. Tell me your boundaries. I want this relationship to remain healthy for you and the new woman.
I guess basic friendship boundaries would be in order. No heavy emotional conversation, no physical touch, nothing weird that I would not want my wife to know about. This woman is fairly reserved but she is a good communicator and conversationalist and she is relationally considerate. I enjoy talking with her. We have texted a little but the texts are usually with a purpose and not just open ended conversation. She has actually been more of a text initiator than myself, which I appreciate because I don’t want to seem like a pursuer. To be honest, relationally she is much more satisfying than LO. More mature. Just yesterday, after we had a fairly superficial miscommunication she apologized a little later and told me she held me in very high regard. That made my day.
Oddly, she would probably also be considered more objectively physically attractive than LO, but I don’t seem to have any romantic attraction to her and now that I know what a glimmer feels like I intend to keep it that way. It’s nice to get closer to someone without the turmoil of physical attraction.
She has been a very nice distraction to LO but I need to keep a lightness to it. So far we have.
Nice work, Speedwagon! You are keeping your head on your shoulders. I like your boundaries. This is how my transference felt in the beginning. Just in case, what will you do if you feel the glimmer? How will you handle it if she discloses to you? These questions are reasonable things to think.
I cannot imagine her disclosing anything to me. For one, I don’t get any romantic attraction vibe from her. Also, I am her employer, not a peer, so that is an added layer of complexity. I cannot see her crossing that boundary but I’m not going to say it can’t happen either. I’m not naive. I will be vigilant about these things now that I understand limerence and understand what a glimmer feels like. As I sit here today I do feel that she has been a positive person to invest some emotional energy in as a friend and she has helped lessen my distress over LO quite a bit.
āI cannot imagine her disclosing anything to me.ā
That is exactly how I felt about LO3. And then he disclosedā¦
It went something like this, āIām sorry I canāt be your friend anymore. I realized that I am too attracted to you. Iām sorry about that, too.ā
I felt a little panicked because I still needed him for mood regulation. I replied something like, āI understand because I have the same problem, but Iām not worried about it because I would never betray either of our spouses. Can we just establish boundaries?ā
He likes my boundaries and the friendship is still working.
Iām glad the new female friend is taking the edge off of your LE. I think you need to be ready for a glimmer or disclosure because it can happen. Hopefully this will just be a lovely friendship.
L.E my wife is asleep on the couch abd Im not very sober. Can i foegive myself to watch her sleep. Im not thibking of LO for once.
Wow! Victory! Great job Adam! Watch Mrs. Adam sleep. Go for it. Enjoy your wife.
Feeling a bit like I let my guard down a little too much this last week and had a little too much personal interaction with LO. After a good 4-5 weeks feeling pretty good I am experiencing more of a low this week that I felt coming on last week.
Need to make a better effort this week with LC. Hoping this is a temporary setback.
Good awareness, Speedwagon. I hope this week is better, too.
I made a really tough decision today, I could take LO out on a work outing Friday and spend alone time with her. I’m choosing not to; taking someone else. It is really tough not to choose LO and not feed my limerent desires, but I know it’s not healthy for me. It keeps me stuck in the cycle
Ughhhh!!!
Iām proud of you, Speedwagon! You did the right thing.
Wait a minute. Are you taking the potential LO?
Lol…no. But I did go out with her on an outing earlier in the week. She’s great, very relationally considerate person. Makes a point to take interest me. Asks me questions about me. I like that.
Speedwagon, soon you will sound like me and provide updates about two LOs. Hopefully, if transference happens, youāll keep your head about you and no one will get hurt. And if the new relationship stays in the up and up, that is just awesome!
Donāt daydream about the potential LO, k? Maybe you can get into the new LE just long enough to break free of the current LE.
I’m fairly certain she will not be an LO. My current LO is still firmly an LO, even though my distress over her is fading. I really only feel friendship towards this other woman but I do feel a bit of emotional connection to her which is kind of nice to have without all the sexual desire to mess it all up.
But I am also aware that emotional connection can spawn sexual desire as well so I am being careful not to have things get heavy. I want the friendship to stay lighter.
Speedwagon – first off, good job not taking LO. That must have been hard. Well done!
Is the other woman at least somewhat physically attractive to you? I think I share Lovisa’s concern that this new woman could be a candidate for limerence transference, especially since at least part of what you’re looking for seems to be emotional connection and she seems to offer that. Seems like transference and the start of a whole new LE is at least possible here.
I’ve been thinking about transference myself recently. I actually thought up a plan to try to engineer a transference experience (I’m always thinking of schemes). I’ve been wanting to improve my Spanish language skills, and had identified studying Spanish as one of the positive activities I could fill my time with as I separate from LO, in the name of purposeful living. So I started doing duolingo everyday, and then found this other app that connects you with real live tutors in Spanish speaking countries for video chat sessions. And I quickly noticed that a lot of the tutors are attractive women! (in fact, the woman whose profile picture was the most attractive to me has the same first name as my LO…) And I thought to myself, wouldn’t it be great to set up 2x per week video chats with an interesting and attractive woman who is literally in a different hemisphere? Wouldn’t that be a safe and harmless way to transfer some limerent energy? (although perhaps kind of creepy and unfair to the tutor)
But then I had a therapy session today, and it was really interesting. The psychologist was talking about something called “anima projection”, where during times of psychologic stress, a part of the unconscious mind called the anima (in a man, or animus in a woman) will project itself onto another person, and your attempts to know and get close to that person are actually attempts to know yourself better and make yourself more whole. And that actually kind of made sense to me – my SO and I went through a really life-shaking traumatic experience 4 years ago (the death of our infant child), and my 2 most intense LEs have happened since then.
With my current LO, I’ve been feeling this desperate urge to know every single thing about her, and to tell her every single thing about me – much of the time we spend talking with each other is just a torrent of self-disclosure about our lives, including secrets that I’ve literally never told another human being. So maybe this is a sign that my actual need is to get to know myself better and make myself whole, and I could be projecting all of this onto LO (and likely her onto me as well, since she also went through a life-shaking event a few years ago and has been equally eager to tell me everything about herself, despite normally being a very reserved person who has a reputation for not talking to other people much at all)
So now I’m thinking that in addition to working on ending this LE, I really need to avoid transferring to another LO, even if really harmless and short-lived, in order to take the time to actually focus on getting to know myself better and figure out what it is that I’m truly looking for – otherwise I’ll just keep bouncing from LO to LO until something really bad finally happens.
Maybe this resonates with you as well?
Hi LIS,
I am sort of attracted to this other woman in the sense that she is objectively attractive. Probably most men would find her more attractive than my LO. But she is not “my type” attractive where as LO represents the model of beauty to me right now. If I was going to transfer LE I think it would have happened by now. This other woman has done twice as much in just a couple months to show relational interest in me than my LO ever has, due to her being just a more relational savvy and considerate person. I find that she is a nice relational breath of fresh air to LO and has become a nice distraction to LO. But, LO is still LO and I don’t think this other woman is changing that. I also don’t think I would be an LO to this other woman. Nothing she has done gives me a vibe of romance between us. It all feels like mutual, respectful, friendship.
Have I told you this kicker…this woman is LOs best friend. They met in college and I hired this other woman through LO. This woman is very opposite LO though, she is reserved, mature, married well, relationally savvy. LO is silly, goofy, immature a bit, married poor, and relationally frustrating. But she is my LO…why, I’m not sure?
So sorry to hear about your child…cant even imagine! That is interesting about your situation, the tragedy aspect and trying to seek yourself through LO. That kind of stuff gets very deep to me and hard to understand but I can see the value in exploring those ideas. My LE came during some stressful work periods and during a period with SO that felt blah. But no tragedy had happened, I just think I was looking for some relief in stress and along came LO making big eyes at me. She felt comforting, until she didn’t.
I feel like it’s time for a check-in. This last weekend and early part of this week were tougher than it’s been recently with heavy thoughts and desires for LO. I attribute this to being a bit careless with LC and bending a little bit of in person personal alone interactions and also a little bit of texting that started off as work matters but trailed into personal matters. It is so funny how just a little personal interaction/connection can trigger me. So this week I committed back to LC and I have stuck to it. Monday was a pretty down day but today is feeling better.
I still think I am on the other side of my limerent height but recovery is not linear, as most people attest to, and I should expect some setbacks.
My other woman ‘friend’ is on vacation this week so her distraction has not been there in the office. But, she did text me yesterday from vacation which honestly felt a little significant. She sent a few pics, said she was having a good time, and asked me how my week has been. That text lifted my spirits a lot but at the same time, it gave me pause. In the context of our friendship that has been budding, it seems no big deal, but when I think of the fact that she texted me from vacation with her husband, I wonder if it’s a little…maybe relationally bold? I still don’t get the vibe that anything is romantic, but I want to be careful. Close friendship with other women can be a slippery slope in the context of marriage. I don’t want a glimmer to happen, and I still don’t feel any strong sexual attraction to her though I think my emotional attraction to her is building. I was truly excited to get her text and I like her more than LO as a person to know. She is everything relationally that LO is not.
Be interested to know others thoughts about her? My feeling is I just need to be hyper aware of what’s going on and be careful to keep the friendship light.
Going to stay strong with LC this week, not much interaction with LO this week other than giving her some work guidance, and only in some small snippets. That’s a good place to be in with LO and one that I hope to maintain indefinitely.
That to me isn’t a red flag per say, but it is unusual to get a text while she is on vacation and you are normally co-workers. That said, while I never contacted LO outside of work ever (before she quit) there is another female co-worker that I text a joke or meme to for time to time, as we have similar sense of humor, that neither her husband or my wife feel threatened by. But many time I text her something non-work related it could still be during business hours or after. But if I have ever known she was on vacation I wouldn’t think to bother her when she is spending time with her family.
But you seem to be aware of where it is at now, with this other female friend, and where you don’t want it and do want it to go. So I would say as long as you stay self aware about your interactions together you are on the right path.
I donāt know, Speedwagon. If I put myself in her mindset, I think of two possibilities: 1. Innocent attempt to build and enjoy a healthy relationship or 2. attempt to create closeness to someone who interests her like a potential LO. I canāt predict where she is going with this because it could be nothing to worry about. And if you put on the brakes too soon, you might miss out on a nice friendship. And, I think you need healthy friendships just like the rest of us. I really donāt know if her text was a red flag. Butā¦
LO3ās disclosure to me came along after a series of seemingly innocent contact. I canāt see any red flags prior to his disclosure. So I just donāt know what to think anymore. Where is the line? Is it donāt have sex with people youāre not married to or is it donāt talk to people youāre not married to? Itās somewhere in between, but where?
Maybe what matters is how it effects you. Does your relationship with this person result in something positive? Are you a better person? Does this relationship steal anything from the important people in your life? Does the relationship distract you from your responsibilities?
For now it feels more like scenario #1. I do not have any weird vibe from her that I would be an LO. She is a relationally savvy person, and I think she enjoys building the friendship with me. She is a young mother, has a fantastic SO who seems to go out of his way to show her attention (he planned the vacation) and I just think I’m another man that has a lot in common with her with whom she enjoys interacting with. I just really want to leave it at that. Good in office interactions and light, appropriate texting from time to time. That is my line. I guess my hesitation is my SO takes a very narrow view of me being around other women but I find I like the friendships of women.
As for her and my limerence, she does make me feel good in the interest she provides and that seems to ease my distress over current LO. In the couple short months we have developed our friendship she has done 10x more to make me feel appreciated than LO has ever done. I value that a lot. It is sometimes lonely being boss man because I spend a lot of time with these people, and I view my business/employees a bit like family, and they just view me as the boss, but she makes me feel a bit more appreciated as a person apart from being boss. I like it, but not in a romantic way and that is what I need to watch out for. That I don’t start desiring her romantically.
Yes Speedwagon! You are making so much progress. I like that you intend to make sure you donāt desire the new friend in a romantic way. My SO chimed in on this one, too. He thinks the budding relationship sounds healthy as long as you keep it friendly.
Oh, but I am concerned about your wifeās feelings. You are implying a level of secrecy. Should I be concerned?
Cheers to good friends who take the edge off our limerent symptoms!
“Cheers to good friends who take the edge off our limerent symptoms”
This is exactly right. She takes the edge off! Perfect way to put it.
My wife takes a hard line on marriage protection, she knows this woman and I have shared a few texts, and I talk about this woman a bit, and so far my wife has not expressed concern. She has met her and we both have met her SO and they are great people together. SO does not seem threatened at the moment but it’s a thin line, I know.
But I did not tell her about the vacation text. Felt a little weird, she could easily jump to conclusions I am not prepared to deal with.
I trust your judgment, Speedwagon. Lost in Space has some good ideas for you to consider, too.
I have been talking more to LO2 this week than I have in a long time. He changed companies this week and I assume he doesnāt feel settled into a new social network so heās reaching out to me and his friend. We have an ongoing conversation that starts around 7:30 am and ends around 5:00 pm every day this week. I havenāt initiated any of it. Either LO2 or his friend start it every day. Itās nice. They are fun to talk to. And I have zero limerence for them. I donāt know what to think about it. My SO thinks itās just a way to feel like I have company while Iām doing chores and stuff. It isnāt interfering with my day because itās a text here and there. We usually have delays between each text except at lunchtime when all three of us text at the same time. I think itās going fine, but I am aware that texting is triggering for some of the men in our āsupport groupā and I donāt want to hurt either of my texting buddies. They seem fine. What are your thoughts?
Speedwagon – I’m a bit concerned on your behalf. You’re still dealing with limerence for LO and you don’t completely understand what she’s thinking or feeling in regards to you. You have this new female friend who is meeting your emotional needs more than LO and now she’s texting you while on vacation with her SO and you really have no way of knowing what her feelings or intentions are either. And you’re still the same person with the same emotional needs and voids and inclinations to limerence.
I’m not saying you absolutely shouldn’t explore the possibility of platonic friendship with this new woman, but I’d definitely encourage you to be cautious and introspective at every step. What would be the warning signs that things are going to far? What are your limits? Are you willing to risk getting pulled into another full-on LE at this time in your life? What are you missing in yourself and your life that you’re looking for in these other women?
Thanks LIS,
Because I am in the midst of an LE myself I am hyper aware of the nature of the friendship with this other woman. So far it has stayed fairly light, and I want it to stay that way. I don’t want heavy talks with her, I don’t want texting to become daily or open ended conversation. I want there to feel like there are some barriers that respect our SOs that we both keep to. So far I have no vibe from her of romantic attraction…but then again, I had tons of vibe from LO and according to her she doesn’t feel anything. So my judgement in these matters is just not good. But if we started ramping up communication or anything at all got flirty, that is when I would pump the brakes. Right now we actually text a lot of food photos and talk (kinda cliche, I know) because we both like to cook and eat. It’s fun and light. But she always also knows how to ask just the right amount of question about my day or how I am and I really appreciate that as well. Also, she has a great SO, great home life situation and I feel no rescue fantasy draw with her. She is in a life stage a bit behind me and we talk a little bit about my experiences in her stage and I get to impart a little wisdom. It’s fun.
I have zero idea what LO is thinking these days. She is a closed off person, very hard to read, and quite honestly I am over it. I don’t want to try to figure her out…she just frustrates me. I’m just focusing on LC with her right now. Going fairly well, some days easier than others.
Check-in time. I’m heading off on vacation with the wife and daughter this week, excited for a get away from office life.
The road to limerent recovery is a curvey one. 3 weeks ago I felt great, then I relapsed hard after letting my guard down, had 2 tougher weeks, and this week feels better getting back on track with LC. I had a couple relational let down moments and moments of frustration with LO this week. She can be somewhat relationally immature and self absorbed and this week it shone through quite a bit. But at the same time it’s a good thing to see her for who she really is.
On the other hand, my other woman work friend who I keep building a friendship with, says and does all the right things to make me feel appreciated. She is really good about expressing interest in my life and I find myself cheery about her in a very non limerent healthy way. I’m excited for that.
I’m going to keep pushing on in my LC plan with LO, seems to work well when I stick to it, and enjoy a week away with the family.
Well $hit I am having rotten luck with people I work with. I just got informed today that another of the ladies that worked with LO quit. Unlike LO who let me know, she just sneaked out without saying anything. I called down there today to ask her something and the last gal that works there (who was hired after LO left) told me she quit.
I feel like I’ve said too many goodbyes or had too many people move on out of my life here in the last couple of years. I know it’s a fact of life. But I don’t have to like it. I guess I gotta stop getting attached to people and keep them all at arms length so I can avoid this kind of thing. I have not ever begrudged someone I know/worked with bettering their lives. It just always seems that means leaving me behind.
Yeah, moving on from some of the lovely people in our lives is one of the hardest parts I think.
But please don’t let that stop you getting attached Adam! The temporary sadness of letting go of someone (non-LO) is far outweighed by what you gain while the relationship is in play.
Everything in life is temporary sadly so we must enjoy each moment best we can.
Adam, donāt shut people out. Just accept that you will have pain sometimes. Shutting people out is worse.
She was a fun lady to be around. We had similar sense of humor. Told her she was like hanging with one of the guys. Like fun to take to a sport event or go shoot some pool or golf with. From what her husband says she can hold her beer and gets even more energetic when she drinks. He even shot me a dear last year that I paid to process, because I’m hypocrite; I won’t kill it but I will eat it. Even met her daughter too. Oh that reminds me ….
One day I was down there she had her daughter with her at work, probably 7-8 ish years old. She was waiting for her husband to come get her. Well my co-worker had done something different to her hair that she usually wears in a ponytail, so I complemented her that “it looked pretty on you”. I didn’t see her daughter was in earshot when I said it. Fast forward a few hours and her husband gets there. He comes in and grabs her and sits her on the counter where I was working. He was talking about what they were gonna do when they got home.
Daugher: Dad I have to tell you something.
Her father: What is it?
Daughter: Dad that man in the hat over there said momma was pretty. I don’t think he should be saying that.
Her father: I think it will be okay sweetie.
I was really trying not to laugh cause it was so cute. Daughter looking out for mommy from all the bad men. Lol And her husband took it in stride since he knew I didn’t mean anything inappropriate about the compliment.
I told my co-worker later (she wasn’t there in the room when it happened) and she laughed at what happened. Sometimes memories are a blessing to have in your head. It’s not making new ones with people that leave that is painful.
Check in time. My LE has been a little more intense this week since the last few weeks. I was on vacation with the family last week and I found that to be refreshing and fun. Anytime I can be away from my LO I find that I see her more objectively and can feel a little more at ease. It’s when I am around her that I fall back more into fantasy land. So being on vacation was fun, but being back at the office was tough.
I also did a work outing with LO this week alone which was a big mistake. Spending alone time with her is the biggest folly I can make that heightens my limerence. The problem is, we have a good connection and chemistry when we are alone, that endears me to her. So I get the euphoric high when I am alone with her only to be met with depressive lows later. It is a mistake I am trying not to make in the future.
I have decided that I am going to try to go what I will call modified NC with LO now. I want our only interactions to be work oriented, in person, within the office, with other people around. This is our normal daily routine and it usually is fairly unexciting to me. No personal talk, no alone time, no texting, emails, or phone calls. Basically NC except for how I have to interact with her over her work.
I had a small victory last night in that she sent a personal meme text to me and another employee in a group text and I did not respond to it. It was tough to not respond but I held strong and feel good about that today.
I have been working on a sort of light transference with another woman in the office who I have become friends with. I am not romantically interested in her life LO but I have come to value her friendship enough that when we talk it lifts my mood and I truly look forward to our interactions. It has been a great distraction from LO and I hope our friendship keeps moving forward in a healthy manner. I am being very careful of any glimmery moments though.
I keep pushing on hoping over time the last remnants of limerence die off with current LO.
Nice work, Speedwagon. You stayed strong, you resisted the temptation to respond to LOās personal meme. Sweet! Also, Iām glad the new friendship is working out so well. Donāt forget that you can glimmer to her, too. Please keep your awareness up. I did not expect my LO3 to develop feelings for me when I was in your position of creating a new friendship to take the edge off my limerence, but it happened. Please be kind to this new woman and stay firm in your boundaries.
Thanks for the update and have a nice weekend.
Miss Lovisa my family and my f-i-l and m-i-l are all eating bbq at the park. When I got done eating I took a short walk and I saw two parents helping their 3-5 year old daughter how to feed the geese and ducks. They were eating out of her hand and she was laughing and having fun and then this huge intrusive thought of a memory of LO and her daughter hit me. When will this end? I like to remember them but not when it almost reduces me to tears in public. I just want to not be at the mercy of my stupid limerent brain!
Adam, that is a wonderful thing to witness. How cute! So what if a memory of LO passed through your mind, too. Itās okay. You still got to see that adorable family. I love witnessing stuff like that. Did she giggle? I love it when kids giggle.
Tears huh? Okay that stinks. I like this video about intrusive thoughts.
https://youtu.be/laeYq51SYA0
I donāt know how long the intrusive thoughts will last. My intrusive thoughts went away about a month after I started transferring my LE from LO2 to LO3. I know that transference is out of the question for you. I am just saying that is how I got through the intrusive thoughts and how long it took to get through them. I have had a few short spells of intrusive thinking with LO3, but he is so responsive that it passes quickly. That has me thinkingā¦ my worst experiences with intrusive thoughts happened during no contact with LO2. I donāt know what to think about that.
Here is what I tell myself when I am fixated on my LE, āDo the right thing no matter how you feel, Lovisa.ā Or āDo the right thing anyway.ā So if itās time to read to my 7-year-old, but I am daydreaming about LO, I read to my daughter anyway because that is the right thing to do. If I keep doing the right thing anyway, I develop patterns of behavior that serve me and my family. Speaking of my 7-year-oldā¦ she wants me to sleep on the trampoline with her tonight. Iām not sure the weather is that nice yet: 37 degrees F. I still might do it. My SO is an Eagle Scout and he knows how to sleep outside in the cold. Oh boy, I am nervous. Interestingly, my LO will be running through the night. He is doing another 100-mile race that he started this morning. Running in the cold and sleeping in the cold are two different things, I donāt know who will be more uncomfortable. I got a little side tracked.
Itās so cool that you had a bbq with your family today! The weather is perfect for bbqs.
Yeah she did. She was like āmomma the duck ate itā and then tried to give the duck another piece of bread and a greedy goose walked by and stole it out of her hands and shes yells ānot for you long neck duck!ā Lol. It was too funny. Geese can be mean jerks. But it was special seeing some 20 something couple starting out on the road of parenthood. While momma and I are just about at the end of that road.
I think some of the intrusive thoughts about LO when they include her daughter is because I never had one. I always wanted a babygirl to call my own. And I think I imprinted that on LOās daughter. Not sure that is good or bad. I love my sons and wouldn’t change it for the world. But I would have loved my own babygirl. I think thatās where the tears came from.
After I got back to the gazebo I walked with my youngest son back to the lake where the couple was and he took some pictures of the geese, swans, ducks, turtles and fish in the lake and it helped me redirect my mind to the present and not on LO. He got a lot of good pictures.
I hope your husband has some good tips. Sleeping outside in 37 F is cold. But Iām sure if you do your daughter will cherish the memory. You are such a giving person Lovisa. The people in your life are very fortunate to have you.
Yeah it was really good. Kielbasa sausages, tamales, both beef and pork ribs (our youngest boy ate almost all the pork ribs lol) and plenty of sides and snacks. I actually drank southern sweet tea. And as a born and raised yankee thatās not usual.
āItās unusual to drink tea at anytime
Itās unusual eat potato salad at anytimeā
Lol I know youāll get that reference Miss Lovisa.
Im going to fix up some leftover bbq and some ranch beans for dinner and I will check out the video you posted tomorrow and tell you what I think. Thank you for taking the time to respond to me.
I love hearing about this, you two!
The BBQ sounds great, Adam. I just might need to get my grill sorted. And – haha Lovisa – I once agreed to sleep out on the trampoline with my kids. Every move anyone made just shook and woke everyone up. And yes, it was cold! And then started to rain around 3am. What a memory!
I think the hardest part of limerence is the intrusive thoughts. Totally distracting, totally out of your control. I consider limerence is more or less over when the thoughts are no longer intrusive. Then it’s more like nostalgic thoughts? Like my memory of sleeping on the trampoline with my kids, a sweet memory of a time past. Not an intrusive punch in the gut. I’m so sorry it’s still at that stage for you, Adam. But it will fade. I still pause when I’m driving on the highway and pass the rest stop I used cos I was crying so hard once over the impossibility of LO I thought I was going to be in an accident, or the parking lot where I cried when I first knew he was possibly going to enlist. I am not in that mental state anymore, but sometimes I still feel a faded version of that old obsession, that old desire, that old heartbreak. And it’s sad. But I’m also relieved it’s a gentle sadness, not an intrusive howling madness.
Aww, I love hearing stories from you two. Your trampoline story is hilarious, Limmy. Sleeping on the trampoline is our thing. Itās usually my 7-year-old, my 14-year-old and me. We always end up in this tangled ball of bodies in the middle. It is not comfortable, but my running watch gives me high sleep scores when I do it. Last night my SO said ānoā to us sleeping outside. He said we donāt have enough cold weather gear for three people. Whew!
You are right about the intrusive thoughts being the worst part of limerence. They are awful! I had intrusive thoughts with LO2 which is why I became desperate enough to transfer my limerence. I am so glad it worked. I am also lucky that this LE has been mostly mild. I made a conscious effort not to daydream about LO3 from the start which I think is the reason I am not plagued with intrusive thoughts. I daydream sometimes, but not as much and I catch myself doing it.
Adam, thanks for expanding your bbq story. What a great day! No kidding that geese can be jerks. My grandparentsā geese liked to chase kids. They were mean. I have no doubt that if you had a daughter, she would be a very loved girl. Itās good that you recognize that your tears came from something bigger than your LO. I think it is a step in the right direction. You might get a daughter-in-law someday. I was my bossās āclosest thing to a daughter he would ever haveā until his oldest son married a lovely lady and I was sadly displaced. Okay, not entirely displaced, but it was obvious that the new daughter-in-law filled the void better than I did.
Have a great Sunday!
I’ve gone NO for 4 months now because of missing university due to illness. The fire has been extinguishing extremely slowly but steadily. However tomorrow i start Uni I’m terrified about the upcoming contact if it’s gonna eff me up again. ššš
AnonymHf, thanks for letting us know that no contact is slowly diminishing your symptoms. Iām sorry you were sick. Iām glad you are getting back to school soon. Good luck! I hope the LE is less of a problem and that you are able to focus on your studies.
Thanks so much for your kind comment Lovisa the weird thing is during my very intense sickness my limersnce pain disappeared, i still though about LO constantly however i thought about LO with no pain like if i told you to think about an elephant there’s no emotional pain involved so i thought i had beaten limerance. However as i regained my health the limersnce pain returned completely, along with my appetite for food and libido(which also was lowered singnicanly). I thought that was very weird. Also LO knows about my health condition and most likely knows i been off Uni bcuz of it so if she asks it’s gonna be SOO difficult for me not to open up about it but I’ll try and be disciplined š
Very cool that you are feeling better, too bad that the limerent pain returned. That is so hard. Limerence is such a difficult beast.
Iām sorry, but I canāt remember if you already answered this question. Is there a reason you canāt pursue your LO?
I never answers that question. Tbh that’s a complicated question to answer, first things first I’m a practicing Muslim so dating is off the table, for religious reasons i wouldnt touch a girl unless she’s my wife, and i am not ready for marriage for many reasons including my health which i mentioned b4. And LO is the same as me in this regard which is why we got along with each other, in fact we had both avoided close friendships with the opposite gender our whole lives except we both made an exception for each other. I hated the limersnce feeling and i also hated the sin of being so close with her . So i disclosed to her last May and said that our relationship isn’t appropriate etc. And she fully agreed And said I’d only speak to her if she wanted to get to know each other for the purpose of marriage and she said she had thought about marriage with me as well as we got along so well. We agreed we both wasn’t ready for marriage so we should not be as close to each other and focus on studies. After this. We saw each other abit and things were completely fine she was acting normal not distant at all. Fast forward 4 month break till. September. My first Uni lesson was a 4 hour laboratory session and she ignored me for 4 hours whilst sat right next to me ( I WAS DEVASTATED) a month after this is when i finally researched my symptoms and found limerance. She acted quite cold and sometimes looked weirdly distressed then last December we were forced to be partners in a project ( what are the odds š) and she even got confrontational with me for a small. Joke i made but then appologised instantly many times and in person. My sister and friend told me she wants your attention that’s why she got confrontational with meš sometimes i feel she might be limerant for me but i doubt it as odds are way too low.
Hf, I belong to a very conservative Christian denomination. I understand how deep-held religious beliefs are contrary to the signals that we get from our bodies. I feel sympathy for you and your LO. Something that helped me when I was your age is that I married as soon as it was the socially acceptable thing to do. I had just turned 20 and my husband had just turned 22. I chose my SO because the adult women in my life thought my SO would be a good fit for me, I liked his family, and I wanted to be close to him. It was the smartest thing Iāve ever done. I donāt know what your culture teaches about marriage timing. In my culture, girls look for husbands after they graduate high school and boys look for a wife after they serve a 2-year mission for the church. Of course, we are free to choose for ourselves. We date in groups when we turn 16. We are allowed to have physical contact with perspective mates before marriage as long as we use boundaries. Mostly we just canāt have sexual relations outside of marriage. It sounds like your culture encourages graduation from university before marriage and no dating until you are ready for marriage. Wow. That would be hard. I admire your strength and I admire your devotion to your faith. It is remarkable! Is there hope that you and LO can have a future when the timing is right? Do you know how long until you are ready for marriage? Please only answer if you feel comfortable sharing.
Iāve been thinking about your situation, Hf. You are trying to do right by your religion and that is awesome. But there seems to be a dark side to it, too. I think we trade intimacy for safety. When we diligently follow the rules, we āprotectā ourselves from getting too close to other people. But then we end up with a lack of intimacy that can haunt us in many different ways like limerence. Hmmm, I think we need to find a way to meet our emotional intimacy needs with healthy boundaries so that we are appropriate and satisfied. Iāll be pondering ways to meet intimacy needs that do not violate religious standardsā¦ maybe a support group or close, trusted friends?
Adam is lucky because he has an excuse to attend AA meetings. I love AA meetings! The people are raw, honest and accepting. Iāve attended meetings with two different friends when they were working towards recovery. I love that environment! Just a thought.
Miss Lovisa is always here with kind and thoughtful comments. Don’t know what this community would do without her. Day or night it seems she’s here for us all.
“if she asks itās gonna be SOO difficult for me not to open up about it but Iāll try and be disciplined”
Totally get this. One day I came to work after a doc’s appointment but wasn’t feeling well so I went home early. I had talked to LO earlier in the day about something work related. She had called back after I left to follow up.
Well the next day almost first thing in the morning she calls the office to check in on me. Gave me the whole 20 question routine to make sure I didn’t get anyone else sick, was strong enough to be at work, got enough sleep, that I took medicine, and ate enough and drank enough liquids.
I think I have posted about this before to Miss Lovisa, but a woman, any woman, that mothers me makes me weak in the knees. I’m a pretty independent man and rarely ask for help with much in life. But when I am sick I totally let any woman that wants to mother me. And the amount of concern LO put into all those questions to make sure I was well, was like WOW! My doc is telling me I need to get my heart rate down and now LO isn’t making that easy lol
Yep miss Lovisa is a Gem
You guys are sweet, thank you.
Tbh mine isn’t even that empthetic. You can tell she cares but she won’t express it like how you say your LO does.If she was like that the temptation would be a million times higher šš
She also scolded me pretty relentlessly about my smoking. Before I met her I went through a cardio version for Afib in my heart (I think I got all the technical terms right lol) so I did need to stop smoking and at the time I worked with LO I was in the process of doing so. But if she caught me smoking too many times in one work day, for her liking, I would be in trouble. And I did not want to get on LO’s bad side because as sweet of lady as she was I was also told she had quite the tempter. I’ve learned by my age now, it’s best not to get on a woman’s bad side.
Limmy
Before I read your post yesterday (I would have responded then but I suck typing on a phone lol) I was actually reminded me of your LO. I was sitting out on the porch with my wife having a drink, yes Miss Lovisa about to go on my daily walk š
And my wife’s phone rang and she was talking to someone about one of her cousins that has done multiple tours in the early 2000’s for the army. And I got to thinking about your LO because like my wife’s cousin they both volunteered for such a brave act. I didn’t pray but I did take a moment to hope that he is okay and will return home safe.
And it is good to hear that it is stabilizing for you. I have some good days and some bad days. I think what really hit me Saturday is that the park we choose to have the BBQ at was one we used to take the boys to when they were young when we lived up in that area. So I was getting hit with all kinds of memories, good and bad and lots of them about LO and her daughter. And for some reason I had a really bad feeling that LO and her daughter weren’t safe. I really had no reason to think so but it was just a nagging feeling I couldn’t shake. But I didn’t contact her. and tried to stay in the present.
Miss Lovisa
Speaking of a daughter in law …. our oldest son (in college) remarked to my wife and I that he wanted to come home for the summer before college starts again in the fall, and that he wanted to bring his lady friend to come by the house and met everyone. Though we have met her before at his dorm, I don’t think she’s met his brother yet.
He plans to live with us and work through the summer to save money and then get an apartment before the next semester starts in the fall and then live in it. He’s actually working right now as well at a restaurant up where the college is. He’s a dish washer and is hard working at it. He said he is the first person his supervisor calls if he needs a shift filled outside his regular schedule.
But yeah they are making plans for the future, both in regards to schooling, finances and their relationship. Kid has his head on a helluva lot better at 19 than I ever did. Very proud of the man he has become. And the young lady with him now is a sweet lady that I would be proud to call my “daughter”.
That is good news, Adam!
She use to get onto you about smoking šš. I understand perfectly why that would make you attatched at the end of the day it’s tough love but it’s still love and her anger basically means she cares about you.
And that was one of things that lead me to glimmer finally. I misinterpreted her words or actions as some kind of special treatment, when really she is just a kind lady that herself knows the dangers of smoking having quit herself.
And to me that’s the worst part of the limerence. The inability (without some really honest effort) to see things as they really are. The limerence manipulates your rational thinking into something that makes the limerence chemicals in your brain mix for the reward it is after.
And it really is selfish and cruel to the LO. Especially if they are unaware of your condition and/or what limerence even is. I often wonder how much I did LO wrong through the limerence when she is just a nice lady that cares about people. It’s a beast to deal with. In many ways it was a blessing for her and myself she went on her way down another path.
Miss Lovisa, yes your right usually it’s graduation first then marriage. Tbh i don’t want to get married untill my illness makes alot of improvement (it’s extreme skin disease) i also have other personal developments i want to make b4 i feel ready for that. Tbh with LO she’s a different race, and i have a preference for my own race (which she said the same about me) and to be perfectly honest i don’t feel alot of physical attraction to her( yet i still developed limerance) Ultimately she is a good person and if the timing was right perhaps i would marry although i feel inside that the whole unhealthy limerance thing has tainted it. Tbh it feels more logical to marry someone who you haven’t developed a bizarre psychological phenomenon towards. So to be truthful the biggest reason i don’t want to marry is the limerance itself.
That makes sense. You have wisdom for such a young person.
Hahaha wise beyond my years š§
I understand what your saying miss Lovisa, but the truth is i actively pursued a relationship with my LO knowing full well this was against my values, and if i followed my religion like i know i should, I never would have never developed limerance in the first placeš. In Islam marriage is extremely encouraged, ( we believe the one who gets married has completed half of his religion) and also we believe the most blessed marriages are the ones that are made the easiest without difficulty. Marriage is supposed to be easy in Islam. However now a days it has become something difficult due to the society and peoples attitude. The problem more lies with the people then the actual following of the rules if that makes sense. Thanks for your advice and i appreciate you thinking about my situation. ā¤
I appreciate that you are sharing information about Islam. I have always wanted to learn more. I read the Qurāan after 911, but I donāt think I understood it.
Islam teaches that marriage should be easy? That is interesting. Iām guessing that it teaches that marriage is easy if the husband and wife abide by the teachings of Islam. To be honest, I am confused when people say that marriage takes work because I havenāt felt that way in my marriage, but I suspect itās easier for me and my SO because we share the same values and we are both agreeable people.
I am really enjoying this conversation. Thank you so much for sharing. You are representing your faith well.
When i said marriage should be easy i meant actually getting married, for example if someone wanted to get married how easy it would be to get married. But now that you mention it even the marriage it self as well. For example a woman may ask a potential suitor for any dowry she wants but the best dowry is a modest dowry as that makes for the easier marriage. In terms of the Quran some verses are clear on its own where as some verses require explanation as they may be referencing specific events so would be unclear if the English translation is read alone. The English translation doesn’t really do it justice as we believe the Quran is the word of God in its original language (Arabic) so it’s better to listen to its Arabic recitation. I can send you a link here. You don’t have to listen to it but i promise it will be one of the most beautiful things you have ever listened to in your life. I only mentioned my Islamic belief as it was relevant to my limerance situation i was not tryna call anyone to Islam or be preachyš. So i am sorry for this šš but you seem like a genuine good person miss Lovisa and i think you’ll love it if you listen to this. It’ll make you feel peace in your heart. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Jv1zPcqsxUw&pp=ygUKU3VyYWggdGFoYQ%3D%3D
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=euqv3p0HFYs&pp=ygUMU3VhaCBNYXJ5YW0g ( this chapter is called surah Maryam (Mary the mother of Jesus) I’ll send this as well as your Christian āŗļø
Thanks Hf! Iāll check it out.
Well momma and I had a pretty serious conversation last night for about 2 hours about my limerence and LO. While I was at work, she read some of the articles from here I printed out for limerent spouses yesterday while I was at work. She texted me asking a few questions and said that she wanted to talk about it.
I feel it was more productive than some previous talks. Some things were difficult to hear from her and I know I have hurt her with this. But she really did try to be understanding. I tried to explain the neurological and science of it. And then how that affects what I say and do. We came to an impasse that we both can’t completely understand; her bi-polar and my limerence, but we are willing to be understanding to each other and try our best to make things better between us.
I told her from the start I would be 100% honest with anything she wanted to know. Looking back, from this point, a lot of things that I had to admit and say made me really look at my behavior. Having been on the better side of my LE even before we talked really made me realize how much it effected my behavior and what I would say. I told her that I was sorry, and that it was difficult to explain myself when even now I can see how bad I let it get.
I told her that I would understand if there was a limit to what she was willing to endure. I pointed to the article Dr L wrote for spouses of a limerent in where he says that the amount of time and effort the spouse is willing to put into helping the limerent is completely up to the spouse and not the limerent. I said I was willing to accept that whatever the outcome of this is. She said that he was not planing to leave and was willing to see it through. At least at this point.
I tried to explain intrusive thoughts to which she is no stranger to for many different things that have happened to her in life. I told her that I was doing things to try and prevent them. From my daily walks to keep my mind on simple motor functions to push away the intrusive thoughts to playing games with my son nightly too, when I get done with my walks. And then we cooked a meal last night after we talked. Well she cooked a meal. I just stood in the kitchen and talked to her more.
Right before we went to cook, I was sitting in the living room playing a game on the Xbox with my son, and she was standing behind me, and put her arms on my shoulder and then around me and was asking me some stuff about the game we were playing. After all that terrible stuff I confessed to she actually …. I don’t know why she is still here, but I am thankful for such an understanding woman when she’d be within every right to walk out the door or kick my ass to the curb.
I know now with her standing by my side I can do this. And I am confident getting through this I will be able to prevent it happening again in the future. Thanks to Dr L’s numerous posts and all the advice and life experience from the people here that I will be able to see another possible LE a mile away and nip it in the bud. Though I hope to never have to face this demon again. I am trying to turn my life and my marriage to be purposeful, as Dr L advises so it doesn’t. I hope to be able to help people in future the way many have helped me here. Dr L and the people that quite possibly saved my marriage …..
That’s great!
Song of the Day: “I Only Wanna Be With You” – Dusty Springfield (1963)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Y2R1su4Yg
Or, if you prefer a newer version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niJlVwILVcc – Bay City Rollers (1976)
Rock out!
Yay Momma! Yay Adam! That is wonderful news. Adam, I can relate to that feeling when you feel like you just revealed your darkest struggles to your spouse and they actually still love you. It is very humbling. Holy cow, this is so exciting!
I am doing cartwheels of joy for your family! Everyone wins when a marriage is saved andā¦ even betterā¦ you two are both serious about working on it. Woohoo! Itās time for a happy dance.
L.E.
This came into my youtube suggestions today, and if I believed in anything beyond coincidence I would say someone/thing is sending me a message.
What’s Forever For –Micheal Murphy
https://youtu.be/suctMm61b50
“And if love never lasts forever, tell me what’s forever for?”
Miss Lovisa
It is indeed a great relief that she is allowing me to work through this with her when she has every right to not after what I did. But as frederico advised in another post to me, I need to lighten up on myself and not be so hard on myself. It’s probably not going to help me progress in a positive direction. But I also have to remember the things I have done, because I don’t want this to happen again.
And I wouldn’t have done it without all of Dr. L’s hard work and people like you, LE, Limmy, frederico, Marcia, Speedwagon, Allie, and a lot of other people whose names I am forgetting but not their words that have helped me more than they could know.
Onward into the future.
Miss Lovisa
I had a good but bad night. Momma was cooking me some dinner (flatbread pastrami, cheese and horseradish they were very good) and I had this really bad intrusive thought. I was just standing there talking to her and all of sudden a memory of LO hits me when we got deli sandwiches one time for lunch and she remembered I for sure didn’t like mayo but guessed on what condiment I do like and she got horseradish on my sandwich because by default they made the sandwich with mayo.
Momma knew something was wrong and asked me, and I told her I was having an intrusive thought about LO and she held me until it went away. She held me in her arms while I thought of another woman Miss Lovisa. I don’t deserve this woman. Why is she willing to put up with me?
Wow, thank you for sharing that story. It is the reality of limerence. Why was Momma there for you in your time of need? My SO thinks she recognizes that people are flawed and limerence is just a struggle for some of us. It isnāt her struggle, but she knows she has plenty of her own flaws.
Perhaps she learned something from LwL. Momma is showing some signs of commitment and willingness to make things better. Her response is admirable.
Miss Lovisa
We had another talk last night. I will admit that I had a long day I was bit tipsy and tired. I had just sat down in the recliner to eat a sandwich and Momma initiated a conversation with me about LO and limerence. I’ll admit under those conditions I don’t remember everything she asked. But I remember she was asking questions about what has/is going on in my head.
I think that she is honestly trying to understand me and limerence. Which is more than I deserve but I am humbled she is willing to. I think that the conversation (and that she is initiating most of these conversations herself) is helpful for us both. I am glad to have found this place and have people to talk to but it’s even more therapeutic getting it out of my system to her. She seems accepting that I am trying to get through this but I don’t know if I will ever be able to heal the hurt I did to her.
After we talked I watched a bit of TV while I ate and ended up falling asleep in the recliner. I had a dream later on that night. I woke up shortly after it and remember most of it. Momma and I were out shopping and we ran into LO and her gentleman friend. We went to a nearby restaurant and ate a meal together and it was a giant fairy tale like we were all old friends and we hadn’t seen each other in a long time and it was a happy reunion.
When I woke up it was a pleasant thought for a moment to think what if that is how it had turned out, and not the way that it has in reality. But then I realized thoughts like that are just the same as intrusive thoughts they are just dreams. Momma was asleep when I left for work this morning so I didn’t get to talk to her. Hopefully I wasn’t talking in my sleep again when I had that dream. I wouldn’t want to hurt her more. I hope that the dreams go along with the intrusive thoughts at some point. I try to be as purposeful as I can to push these things out of my head.
Adam, you are making progress. My SO brings up limerence and asks questions, too. He is baffled by it. Likewise, I am baffled by his lack of imaginary conversations in his head. He said that he never imagines himself talking to other people in his head. I suspect his childhood was good enough that he didnāt have to learn how to mentally escape so he doesnāt mentally escape as an adult. My in-laws are quite remarkable.
Out of the blue, LO3 asked for a phone call yesterday. I had a busy schedule so I pushed it to today. I am nervous and excited. He wants to tell me about his last 100-mile run. We usually talk about these things in our training journal, but he left that run fairly blank. Iāve been in the dark for a week. It was his second 100-miler, but he didnāt finish his first 100-miler because the weather was bad. This one he finished. We almost always talk about our races and what we learned, but this time he has been distant. He used two male pacers for this race and I suspected that he mentioned our relationship and they cautioned him against being friends with a girl. I guess that wasnāt it because he apologized for being āquietā on our training journal and he said that he is āback.ā I donāt know why he has been distant. I was getting used to it. Yesterday, my SO and I took the girls and my niece on a steep hike and to the movies. We had a family day. LO3ās request for a phone call came while I was navigating to the trailhead. Some kind of chemical came over me because I felt great as soon as I saw his name. I guess I am still limerent. Interestingly, LO2 and his friend sent me a lot of texts yesterday, too. I didnāt have a chemical reaction to those texts.
As much as I have thought of what if we could still have been friends, I don’t know if I could have balanced it as well as you seem to with him.
That’s a very delicate balancing act, for both of you really. It just seems a shame that limerence can ruin so many things. I get along fine with my other two, well one now, female coworkers with no problems. And am glad to have met them and shared what part of life I did with them. It’s always sad to see people whose company you enjoy move out of your life.
But with LO I feel guilt for what I might have possibly made her feel about our interactions. If I could say one last thing to her I would say “I am sorry.”
Wow 100 miles?? I don’t even like to drive a 100 miles š Think of your running as what you have in common like our job was between LO and myself and try to keep it at that. If your husband trusts you making contact with him, then obviously he knows you are capable of keeping it platonic. Best of luck on your call Miss Lovisa. And congratulations on getting away on a day with the family. We have so much going on in our lives sometimes that we forget to take time for each other as a family.
Adam, I am confident that you didnāt cause your LO any distress. Very confident that she has positive feelings towards you.
My contact with LO3 wasnāt a phone call after all because he wasnāt in a place where he could speak openly. But he could text so we texted. It was an edifying conversation. Absolutely inspiring. I am so impressed with LO3. I was correct that he had distanced himself from me because he learned something from his pacers. It wasnāt what I thought exactly. His pacers are both divorced and LO3 was unimpressed with their inability to take responsibility for their contributions to the destruction of their marriages. It caused LO3 to recommit himself to being present when he is with his family so he spent a week focusing on them. He also shared experiences from the race and some great training tips. I think my SO trusts all of us: me, LO2 and LO3. My SO recognizes that these relationships can work as long as there are boundaries in place. I really like boundaries! My SO is so incredibly supportive. Yesterday, LO2ās friend was coaching a soccer game near my house and he invited me to come. I mentioned it to SO and he said it sounded like fun. Not only was he willing to let me go, he was willing to take me to it. We ended up doing family stuff instead, but it meant a lot to me that I was invited and that my SO was supportive.
Well I am glad that your conversation went well. And being present with my family is what I am trying to do too. After a talk with us from our oldest boy, the last time we visited him in college, it is apparent he is sensing something is off. He told us to “check in each day with each other” and that when summer gets here (last day this semester is May 12) he wants to stay with us, but he doesn’t want to be at home the way things are now. So we all have a lot to work on to get our family together again.
Yes having a supportive spouse makes life so much easier and enjoyable. And maybe that is something Momma and I need to talk about. Where are our boundaries with friendships? Especially with opposite sex friendships and work relationships. So this doesn’t happen to either one of us again.
This song just came on while I was typing this post. This is a song Momma introduced me to because she said (probably not so much right now) it reminded her of me helping her through things and never giving up on her. And I won’t. It’s time to get back up and try harder this time to be a good husband and father. I hope I can do this Miss Lovisa. And I hope she will let me.
Stand By You by Rachel Platten
https://youtu.be/gzNcFx_4p8M
I have an update that might finally be another positive step to getting out of this LE. I had a dream about LO last night. I had fell asleep on the recliner and when my wife got done cleaning the sheets she woke me up to come sleep in the bed. After she gave me my covers I fell back asleep.
I had a dream that the office had a company picnic and that LO and my other former female coworker that quit just recently were invited. At some point in the picnic I got to talk to LO. I asked her about her daughters and how she and her gentleman friend were doing. We talked about past times at work remembering good times. And we talked about her new job and how it so less stressful for her and the schedule was better for her with her daughters going to school.
I told her that I had something for her that I never gave her when she still worked here. I went and got it out of my truck and when I came back she looked at me sadly? Maybe empathetic? She said that she couldn’t accept the gift. She told me that she thought that it was best for me if I didn’t see her again. She said that it wasn’t a good idea that we talked or stayed in touch. She said (several times in the conversation) that she had put a lot of time and effort into [gentleman friend’s name] and that she was happy with that. At the end of the conversation, he walked up to us and he took LO’s hand and she said “goodbye Adam” and walked away with him.
I woke up immediately after the dream. And the strangest feeling hit me. I wasn’t sad and desperate. I wasn’t heartbroken. I was actually relieved. The only sadness I felt was for a friendship that never could have been. But I felt the relief that I had no desire to stop her. Or even say something as they walked away.
Just before posting this I shared the dream with my wife. And she agrees with me that it is a positive sign that maybe I am reaching the point that I can detach and let go. That I can move on. That maybe my rational brain is doing the thinking for me again. I am feeling very positive about things this morning. I am hoping that it will continue.
We also talked about the self punishment I inflict on myself and how it was counter productive. And that she never wanted me to “stew in the guilt” like I have been doing. She was very understanding. Too understanding if you ask me. But don’t look a gift horse and forgive yourself. She did say if it had been a PA it would been a completely different story.
Adam, I came back for a peek, and your post is the very first I am reading. I am so glad for you. Key is how you are responding to the dream in real life – and that you are sharing with your wife is such a beautiful and connecting thing. I’m also glad you got her feedback about your “stewing in the guilt”. She loves you, and I don’t think anyone would wish guilt on someone they loved – and as you say, did not engage in a PA.
Adam-
What a morning here at Lwl. After reading your wife’s comment I can fully agree- you have a pretty amazing wife. It doesn’t sound like she is being “too understanding.” It sounds like she just knows you really, really, really well- and loves you- despite the tricky past year.
I am personally feeling very happy for you. I know limerence has a funny way of cycling back in odd moments, but I also think that dream is a big sign that things are changing in a positive manner.
Thank you for sharing, and please tell you wife how much I appreciated her response! I wrote her myself- but please also tell her.
I hope you have a wonderful rest of your Sunday. š
She asked for her ring back this morning before I left for work. I put it on her finger for a second time. That’s more than I deserve.
Great news!!!
Song of the Day: “Guadalcanal March” – “Victory At Sea” (1959)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chxtUvDh8Jw
That’s so cool!
Woohoo! Celebration!
Great news indeed! So happy to hear the direction things are moving for you and her!
I guess this is a good of a place as any to post an update. For the last 7-10 days or so I have been having, I guess, intrusive thoughts that turn into me extending them through daydreams. The subject of them have all been the same.
In each one that starts as an intrusive thought, through different means somehow LO sends me a invitation to her wedding. Her and her gentlemen friend are getting married. They get extended by me imagining what might be if that did happen. How I would react. If my wife would come with me to the wedding or not. The conversations that might be had. Actually meeting her gentleman friend for the first time. What song would be for their first dance. Meeting other people in her family.
But they all invoke happy and content feelings knowing that she is happy and that they are committed to each other. Knowing her daughters now have a healthy father figure to look up to. That they are a family now. And that brings me such joy to think about.
I wonder if LO did get married if she would remember me? I teased her one time when she was still here about sending me an invitation if they did get married. She just kind of looked at me like “really Adam” cause that was like when they hadn’t even been together for a year yet lol But I could tell even from a distance that they had something special together. I knew she was happy with him.
I don’t know what this means to my limerence. I am not sure to take this as progress or a relapse. I do find that the other times I am reminded of LO it just evoking a memory of her or her daughters. Not a craving or longing. I don’t want to ever forget her or her daughters I just want to remember them just as I remember anyone else that has left my life that I cared for.
“I just want to remember them just as I remember anyone else that has left my life that I cared for.”
You can get to that point but it could take awhile and progress can be in fits and starts.
It took me 30+ years and 2 therapists.
That’s a long time Limerent Emeritus.
I’m going on 10 months with my LO. Looks like I may have a while to go
Adam, I donāt think people leave our lives, we just lose contact for a spell. Last Halloween, I stopped at the home of one of my high school friends who I hadnāt seen in over ten years. She didnāt know I was in her neighborhood. She opened her door and said, ā[Lovisa], you still look the same!ā That was a very sweet greeting. We started talking just like we used to. Itās like nothing had changed, we just jumped in and talked until my seven-year old got bored. Of course she was very sweet with my daughter and that made me happy. By the time we left, my daughter had been won over and wanted to visit my friend another time. What I am saying is that I think itās normal for relationships to go through cycles of lots of contact and reduced contact. It doesnāt mean that person left your life. It just means you are both busy with other things.
Gotta disagree with you on this one, Lovisa.
There are people you encounter that you are better off being rid of. The lessons they teach are why you should stay away from them and anyone like them. And, just because you loved them, it doesn’t mean they get to stay in your life forever.
Some people become chapters in your life, others are mere footnotes.
But I didn’t want her to leave my life. I don’t care if she was good for me or not. I just want her to tell me ….. I don’t know f’ing know. Just something.
“Some people become chapters in your life, others are mere footnotes.”
So true. And bittersweet.
Like everyone, I have met lots of lovely people over the years. The vast majority are no longer in my life and I don’t expect them to be again. Life moves forwards, things change, bringing new experiences and new people. But as you say, that does not alter the value these people added or my fond memories of them.
Haha my wife hates this song because of the play it got. This is a song that was not even on my wavelength of my type of music at my formative years. But when I heard this for the first time I overplayed this song so much my wife made me listen to it on headphomes haha
Bittersweet Symphony — The Verve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyu1KKwC74
I guess I would look at it like it was a relapse. If that’s how you want to gauge it. Having those intrusive thoughts for 7-10 days is over a weeks time. But I don’t think it’s a terrible thing. She is a special person to you. You can’t help what you feel. I’ve been there..
Like myself, I can tell you highly think of LO, wanting only the best for her. Daydreaming of the what-ifs? Picturing yourself being present in her life and at certain moments. All of them being happy moments because you had such pleasant real life experiences with your LO. I’m really happy you have those good memories, that can transpire into pleasant daydreams.
In a way, I’m jealous, because I can only imagine moments like that with my LO. I know so little about her and would love to be more personal with her. Not necessarily for romance, but just to be in her circle. I know she works full time with us every day (next door now, boooo) and is still good at what she does. But I also know she has a hair-coloring/eyelash side-gig she does in the evenings.
She has a newer car, but never washes it, because I figure she’s probably super busy all the time. I’d love to help take of washing it. It’s little things like that, that I would love to help take care of for her. Just to help out and be nice.
“I donāt want to ever forget her or her daughters I just want to remember them just as I remember anyone else that has left my life that I cared for.”
I think that was a beautiful statement Adam. Don’t beat yourself up. It isn’t easy, I know. But LO is special. Nothing can take that away. Nothing.
The crossroads of memories of her and her daughters and intrusive thoughts can sometimes collide. Though I am getting better at just having memories of them without them become painful or agonizing because she has left my life.
Like I remember one time, when we were the last two in office (one person was on vacation and another had to leave work early) and right as we were about to leave it started raining. So I told LO to wait by the door and I went out to my truck and got my umbrella and then proceeded to walk LO to her truck. She was like “Adam who really does that anymore?” I told her “I still do it for my wife.” She was not a girly-girl. So getting that kind of treatment was somewhat annoying to her. But I liked doing nice things like that for her. She would just give me this eye roll and half smile when I would treat her like a lady lol My wife does the same thing. Like “really?” What’s with me and falling for tomboys?
I can’t remember who it was here, but I remember them pointing out that the blog is called LIVING with limerence. I’m hoping it goes away and I don’t have to deal with it anymore. But I don’t think that I, or most limerents in general, get to be that lucky. It reminds me of how I got frustrated myself trying to “fix” my wife’s anxiety, or her bipolar when she was diagnosed with it. But it can’t be “fixed”. It can be managed and treated, but not fixed. And maybe that’s what I have to realize about limerence. Instead of getting frustrated and mad about relapses or set backs to realize this is something I will have to live with. Something I can most assuredly do better at and continue to manage and minimize it for the sake of my marriage and sanity. But something that will more than likely be with me for life in some form.
Adam,
” It can be managed and treated, but not fixed. And maybe thatās what I have to realize about limerence.”
I don’t know that it can be “fixed.” I think if you’re a limerent, you’re prone to limerence. But if you know what limerence is and can recognize when you start to feel the glimmer, I think you can prevent having another LE. If you want to. (I’m using the universal “you.”) You have to want to not be limerent and nip limerence in the bud if it glimmers again. And take the corrective actions to avoid the glimmer from taking hold.
But you have to want it.
And I think the hardest part of not wanting is … being in love/limerence like that is one of the most amazing feelings a human can have.
“But you have to want it.”
Marcia I totally agree with you. It’s why I successfully quit snuff after 10 years of use and multiple attempts at it; I finally wanted to quit.
And really don’t want to go through limerence again. I actively want to nip it in bud as quick as I see it coming if I ever do. I’ve had some addictions in my life but never have I had one where high was so amazing and the coming down was so harsh. The lows are not worth the highs. And the guilt …. that’s a whole other monster.
Miss Lovisa I walked up to the store yesterday about 2 miles away to get some soda for my vodka and got momma some Edys triple fudge brownie ice cream. Its almost gone. I think she liked it. You gals and your chocolate lol
Good job, Adam. Keep up the good work.
Momma makes this awesome dish of tuna, egg noodles, and cheese thats so good. I asked if shed make and she said she would. I said thank you. And she said its easy. And I said Im sorry thank you after what I did to you. And she looked irritated at me. Why is she more giving of me than I myself?
Sorry Adam, Iām not sure I understood your question.
My best guess is that Momma would like to move on and let go of what happened.
I really like what Marcia said. It was something like āitās easier to focus on someone else instead of working on ourselves.ā I think that applies here. Maybe youāre focusing on LO because youāre avoiding something that you need to work on.
Maybe you just caught Momma at a bad moment. I wasn’t there so I can’t analyze the mood of the room. But it could be what Ms. Lovisa mentioned also. Bringing it up only implies to Momma, you might be thinking of LO.
Just sayin..
Adam, I’m sorry but I would be irritated too if I was doing something nice for you that had nothing to do with the LE and it STILL came up. Especially if guilt is one of the final ways of clinging onto the whole thing with LO. I would just want to relate to my husband in the way I would like us to continue rather than have the past dragged back into every single thing. Again sorry, but as a woman, I totally understand your wife’s annoyance.
I got it this time Emily. She very clearly made her point. I don’t want her to get upset at me over it.
I was also glad she was willing to talk more about it. She said that we can talk about it and LO anytime if it helps move forward except in the bedroom. She said that is her safe space and she doesn’t want it invading our bedroom at anytime. That’s fair enough.
When we talked last night I think I finally get where she is at with it. She forgives me the past but I have to be mindful of the future. I don’t think she will be as forgiving if it repeats. I am almost free of LO for the most part and I actually feel better about that. You know, being there for my family and not in a fantasy.
I showed her my post and she said that she wasn’t irritated. She was just hot and needed to get out of the kitchen and cool off. We were outside on the porch when I showed her. It initiated us being able to talk more about the limerence and LO. I asked her some questions that I hadn’t asked before about the limerence, LO and our relationship. I found some things out that I think will help me to get through this. Particularly my anxious attachment issues. She said the previous night she went out of the bedroom to do something and I expressed that I was worried she was going to leave me. She said (last night) when we were talking not to ask her that again because she isn’t going to answer it because she’s shown that she is not going to leave me over this.
It was a good talk and I am glad that we got to have it. But you are right Miss Lovisa, I am avoiding something about me. I am not sure what it is. But we had a good weekend together and I am happy about that. I think I talked a little too much in my sleep last night though. Not sure what I said but I remember momma telling me a couple of times to “just go to sleep”. Not angry at me just concerned I guess. I remember she held my hand several times in the night.
I couldn’t tell what she was saying but she was talking in her sleep too this morning when I was getting ready to come to work. I checked in on her before I left to make sure it wasn’t nightmare type stuff, but she seemed settled in. Then our (as momma calls him) ghost whisper cat came in the room and laid in the bed with her before I left.
Momma said that May (other trauma issues) isn’t a good month. But she does plan on coming back and posting some answers to other’s questions. She’s just been stressed bad since she first posted and doesn’t want to say the wrong thing. But I told her that a lot of people would like to hear from her and she said she would post shortly.
Adam, she canāt say the wrong thing. We just want to hear from her.
I had a weird and unsettling dream about LO last night/this morning. I was at a church function of some kind. There was an amalgam of people that I had gone to church with in the past and some former co-workers from various jobs I’ve had over the years. We all were having a good time and enjoying each other’s company. The night was winding down and some people were starting to leave.
Then I saw LO. And she was with a man. Even in my dream I didn’t know who he was. He wasn’t her gentleman friend who I have seen in person. And it wasn’t her ex because I’ve seen a picture of him. All I knew when LO walked up to me that I didn’t like him. I immediately got a bad vibe. Like his aura just radiated black. He seemed a soulless husk. Darkness incarnate.
LO smiled and talked to me. But she wasn’t herself. She looked and acted like it on the outside but her words were fake. It was like she had to consciously watch what she said and how she acted. It’s like she was on an invisible leash with this man. He never spoke, but he never let her get far from him. When she said had to go, I went to hug and whispered very quietly “do you need help?” When I pulled away she smiled and said goodbye. They started to walk away and after standing there an minute I started to walk after them. When I got close he turned around and stared at me. I knew something wasn’t right and I had to do something about it but then I woke up.
When I woke up I was terrified. This dread loomed over me and I didn’t know what to do. I tried to go back to sleep but couldn’t. I resisted the urge to call LO to make sure she was okay because I didn’t know what time it was. So I did something I haven’t done in 20 plus years; I prayed. I asked God for her sake to make sure she was okay and safe. Not for me whose ignored you all these years. But for her sake just please watch over her and keep her safe. I don’t know what I would do if something happened to her.
Finally I could fall asleep. Now to make things even weirder, I woke up feeling bugs crawling on or under my skin. But when I would open my eyes I couldn’t see anything. It happened 3 or 4 times before I was able to fall asleep until my alarm went off to get ready for work. Once even in my dream then, one time, I saw myself sleeping and would see bugs on me and it woke me up.
I don’t know what to think about it but it’s making me wonder. I hope it was just a dream and nothing more. I am trying to tell myself it is nothing more than that.
Man, thatās an intense dream. That would shake me up too. It would also leave me with an almost overpowering urge to contact LO to make sure sheās ok and to try to prevent something bad from happening to her. Iām guessing youāre going to be dealing with that urge all day today.
My psychologist likes to talk about dreams, and he always reminds me that dreams arenāt messages from the future, theyāre X-rays into our own subconscious minds. A dream like that isnāt actually any kind of predictor about something thatās going to happen, but itās a look into the battles going on in your deep unconscious psyche. And this dream was a particularly intense look inside, with glimpses of God, religion, evil, and of course your feelings for LO with your rescue fantasies and savior complex at the forefront.
At the end of the day, itās probably just that – a very intense rescue fantasy dream, and perhaps your subconscious mind making a play to trick you into contacting LO today. You can resist. Remember itās not your role to rescue her.
On a related note, Iām pledging not to initiate any contact with my LO today, even though Iām sure sheās going through something hard and is feeling depressed and I want to rescue her. Itās not my role, so Iām going to make it through today without contacting her.
Iām cheering for you, Lost in Space. You got this!
“My psychologist likes to talk about dreams, and he always reminds me that dreams arenāt messages from the future, theyāre X-rays into our own subconscious minds. A dream like that isnāt actually any kind of predictor about something thatās going to happen, but itās a look into the battles going on in your deep unconscious psyche.”
I do have a lot going on in my head. Between LO, my marriage and this lingering limerence it’s all a mess in there. And you are right about the whole savior complex that keeps poking at the limerence fire to keep it burning doesn’t help. It just seemed like an oddly specific dream that I am not sure what it was trying to say to me. I felt like I was some horror movie victim … just staring in horror at Pinhead or some $hit, knowing whatever would happen would be bad. What does this man represent to me? Is it my rational brain telling me to let go, and that I see him as evil because I don’t want to let go completely? Was her not being “herself” telling me she was trying not to send me spiraling, even if she didn’t know I am limerent?
But yes as of now I have not reached out to LO or even tried to check in on her via someone else or her social media. Which I am surprised about the latter it would be so easy to click over to her Facebook account.
Hope you can get through the day LiS. I think if I look at it as, YOU are satiating your savior complex to “rescue” her. You aren’t actually rescuing her from anything. Like you said, it’s not your role. And it’s not mine with her either.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. You give me a lot to think about.
āI think if I look at it as, YOU are satiating your savior complex to ārescueā her. You arenāt actually rescuing her from anything. Like you said, itās not your role.ā
Yup, exactly this. Itās not my role, and itās not actually anyoneās role except LO herself. And sheās doing the work, sheās seeing a therapist, sheās making some big positive changes in her life going back to school and changing jobs, and I just have to trust that sheās got this. And if she decides that she wants some support from me, sheās totally capable of asking for it and has at various times in the past, and she knows Iām here for her anytime she wants to talk in the future, but if she doesnāt want contact with me right now then thatās the right thing for her. And if Iām telling myself āoh but I think she really needs meā then thatās actually just me trying to satiate my own desire for closeness with her, not me genuinely trying to do whatās best for her.
I did not text her all morning. I had some paperwork to give her and was tempted to bring it to her office but I just dropped it into intra-office mail. And now Iām heading home for the rest of the day so itāll be easier not to think about contacting her for the rest of the day since Iāll be home with my wife and kids.
Wow Adam, that is quite a dream. I see why it troubled you. Dreams can be powerful teachers. It will be interesting to see what you learn/learned.
Very cool that you turned to God. He doesnāt care that itās been a long time since you turned to Him. He is always ready to receive you. He is like a parent. There is nothing my kids can do that would cause me to give up on them (believe me, I know because I used to pray that I would stop loving my son. It was too painful to love him after I learned about the crimes he had committed. But I couldnāt stop loving him. I also couldnāt stop hoping that he would change his ways). God is like that, too. He doesnāt give up on us, He patiently waits for us to come back. I donāt want to get too preachy, so Iāll stop there.
“It will be interesting to see what you learn/learned.”
Well I learned that after turning to prayer for fear of LO’s safety, and not even having turned to God when our firstborn was 14 weeks premature and the doctors weren’t sure if either my wife or him would survive, that this limerence for LO has had a much more profound impact on me than I could ever imagine.
That was a big thing for me. I almost couldn’t believe I did it. My thought that got me to do it was, even if I don’t believe in God, still mad at him, etc. if there is something wrong going on with LO and he chooses to take a hand in caring for her than you just need to swallow your pride and ask. LO is too important to be left behind because of your pride. So I prayed and asked in tears to save LO if something was indeed wrong.
Wow! That is quite a lesson.
Do you think itās possible that you asked for Godās help with LO because you donāt really have access to her whereas you had access to your son? Iām curious if that was a contributing factor becauseā¦ wellā¦ you are going to laugh at me for this one, but here goes. Iām pretty sure I offended some spiders on the trail two nights ago. They startled me and I screamed and kicked dirt at them. I feel guilty about it now. They were minding their own business. I wish I could apologize, but I canāt so I thought that if I prayed and asked God to apologize to the spiders, maybe they would know that Iām sorry. Man, this sounds insane. My point is that I want to take care of something that I canāt do myself so I might ask for help from God. I guess I could just apologize to Him for kicking dirt at the spiders. Oh, Iām such a monster. This probably doesnāt make any sense, sorry.
Praying for LO is part of my prayer regimen every day. Usually it’s the first thing I do when I wake up. Praying for a safe drive for her on the way in. There is a dangerous intersection at one the entrances to the Business Park here, where a lot of red lights are avoided by other drivers. I’m always worried LO will get into an accident if she gets in too much of a hurry coming in or even going. Not to mention she’s on her phone a lot and not sure how much she’s paying attention.. I also pray she is happy where she is at now. And I pray for her forgiveness, if I ever offended her in any way.
We are always called to pray for others. Nothing ever wrong asking for God to help LO. I have depended heavily on the Holy Spirit to see me through this limerence and depression. I don’t know where I would be without prayer.
Miss Lovisa
I think it was that to a degree. With our son (both actually our second was 6 weeks early) I had faith in the doctors, medicine and medical technology that I wasn’t overly worried about my wife or our son. The doctors did tell me that if things went south I might have to make the choice between one or the other but I knew what choice I would make so I was prepared. (Though years later when my wife asked what I would have chose she told me she would have resented me for it if I had to have made that decision.) With LO I have no control over the situation. I had no means at my disposal to help me alleviate the worry and fear of whether she was safe. So I had to turn to someone else for help, not something I find easy to do.
If you feel guilty about kicking dirt at spiders Miss Lovisa, I have done far worse to their kind. I am deathly afraid of spiders and my instinct is to kill them. For sure if they are in the house or here in the office at work. I try to leave them be outside but if they spook me bad enough my instinct is to kill. So I think God will forgive you for what you did. They are at least still alive. š
See, while I was proofreading this, there is one in here right now. Dang wolf spiders….ugh I hate em. But it is minding it’s own business so I’ll leave it be. And it’s not a real big one. There was one some months ago that was the biggest wolf spider I have ever seen in 20 plus years living here in the office at work that sent me into a panic attack before I could kill it.
MJ
Prayer is difficult for me now. While I was raised Christian turning to some invisible being for help is peculiar to me now. Most situations I feel I can do what is necessary to alleviate things. That dream backed me into a corner I couldn’t get out of. My fear got a hold of me and told me I was helpless. I couldn’t help her. I was impotent. Rather than give into the fear and just give up I knew there was a solution to help LO. She was all that mattered.
Between two premature sons and a wife with bipolar and anxiety I am used to being the one that others rely on. So relying on someone else to help in a situation I feel I should be able to fix myself, is difficult. But this was definitely one of the “ends justify the means” situations.
I’ve always known that God had a hand in my life. Even as a kid, I had this vision of going to the mountain top and asking God, “Ok, what’s the point and is this really necessary? You’re omnipotent, if there’s something you want me to know, just tell me.”
As I grew older, I realized how blessed I really was. God has to love you, nothing says that He has to like you. For some reason, he seems to like me.
Years ago, I lost a lot of my father’s inheritance in bad investments. I lost a sizeable chunk to a con man that the SBA hooked me up with. The guy ended up in prison. He also introduced me to LO #2. I wasn’t blowing the money on hedonistic pleasures, I was trying to take the money I was given and put it to good use, just like the parable.
But, instead of making a lot of money, I always seemed to have more than enough money. I was talking to a friend about it. She asked why I thought that. I told her it was God’s way of teaching me humility and keeping me humble.
I was bad enough as it was, with a lot of money, I could have become insufferable.
My friend said that was a good insight. How much is enough?
And that is the stuff that sucks. This is going to sound extremely petty, believe me I realize this, after all these years you prayed for someone (I do not pray for those that don’t know, I am a Pagan, I’ve never participated in a group dinner prayer or any other kind…. to me it’s just too personal between me and my belief system) but you didn’t when I was in a literal feet higher than head bed position because of double footling breech with a prolapsed cord and some hades made meds that suck being dripped into the IV to stop contractions or when they seriously *ran* down the hall with an RN riding with me pushing him back up or when I got into the OR and was not yet fully out when they started the c-section. or when I could’ve bled out after a placenta abruption at 32 weeks that easily could’ve killed both of us.
I read that and it makes me wonder if we will just never be important or as worthy as someone else. If a limerence is more profoundly impactful on you than the birth of your boys, or the deaths we’ve had to struggle through, I don’t really know what to do with that. š
Lovisa, yes in theory he had 24/7 access to both NICUs, but we lived over 100 miles away with our first and he had to work (no sick time or FMLA) and that’s not a blame or slam, he was there as much as he could be. Our son was extremely hard to look at (in fact his skin was so thin the first time my mom saw him she thought he was in a red jumper, except for the bruises), he was intubated – when he cried he made no sound, the first time I heard him cry it had a weird effect on me-, umbilical lines and then CPAP and then back to intubation where I watched them collapse both of his lungs because the tube was advanced too far – rectified, still traumatic to me, I seriously freaked out that day – then there was the PICC line because his IVs kept blowing out, Oral-Gastric and Naso-Gastric tubes. I do not fault him for any way he could or couldn’t interact with him….you don’t know what you’d do until you’re there situations and there are no right or wrong ways, when he was ready to touch him we walked to the NICU at 2am from a motel room. I sent him out of my hospital room while I authorized blood transfusions (we both agreed though) for the baby the day after he was born, so he’d have deniability with his parents. and that’s not even 1/32nd of the things that were to come (if you’ve ever seen Clockwork Orange with the reverse eye clamps, they really do look like medieval torture devices). Our youngest had it easier, for a preemie anyway, but he was in the womb 6 more weeks (these are just some of my PTSD contributions). These are my fault, because I have messed up organs, the small consolation I have is the worst case (other than death) never happened.
I remember someone asked about sex and didn’t understand the reasoning. It’s not that I don’t want to, but even he has said he gave me a kiss on the forehead and cheek while I was sleeping and his LO popped into his mind. 2 decades post sexual assault, I panic horribly when or if other men get too close to me – 7-11 line at the register, I’ll flat out panic. Adam is the only one I’ve ever really trusted after that happened (he didn’t know me when it happened), I’m not sure I could relax knowing that his LO pops into his mind. That’s scary for a rape survivor because I’ve always had a partner that I knew would stop if I needed him to….but is he listening to me anymore or the woman in his brain? Does that make sense? I know he would never intentionally hurt me, I trust that, but who’s he making love to?
Welcome back, DmmitHardison! Iām so glad you are here!
First of all, I love that you stood up for yourself with such passion. Holy cow! You go girl! Everything you shared makes sense and you have been through some awful trauma. You didnāt deserve what that man did to you. I wish it would stop haunting you, but these things leave scars. Your reaction makes sense. Wow, I am so impressed that you were able to put all of that into words. You know, youāre like a celebrity around here. Iām feeling a little star-struck just talking to you.
When Adam talked about the trauma of the boys being premature, I didnāt even begin to comprehend the magnitude of what that was like for you guys. You described the nightmare very well. Wow. That is awful! I canāt imagine what that was like. I think if I were pagan and I learned that my husband prayed to his Christian God for a woman at work and not for me, Iād pretty mad. I think Adam owes you some prayers whether theyāre real or not, itās the intention behind it that matters.
About the sex stuff. Sexless marriages baffle me. If I go two weeks, the Walmart greeter becomes sexy to me. Sex is a need for me and so a sexless marriage would be torture. That being said, I am learning that other people have different experiences than me. Anyway, everything you said makes sense. I can see why it would be hard to have intimacy with Adam when you wonder if he is thinking of his LO. That would hurt. But I actually thought everyone used fantasies during sex with their partner and so it wouldnāt bother me as much. I really believed my husband had been fantasizing about other people when we make love because I do that. Then I talked to Adam about it and he said that if you were doing that, he would hope you felt safe talking to him about it. So I talked to my SO and learned that his mind doesnāt wander during sex. I was surprised. He also isnāt upset with me for using fantasies. I hope that makes sense.
I am so impressed with you and Adam. It sounds like you got some awesome boys out of those difficult deliveries.
It sounds like you have a heavy load of mental health struggles. That is hard. Your awareness is impressive.
I am so glad you are here! Keep coming back. You are always welcome here.
Lovisa, it’s never bothered me that we came from two different religions (before the ties were severed, my *huge* extended family ranged from Catholic to Mormon to Lutheran to Baptists to Agnostics/Atheists to Born Again I don’t even know what and many in between). I was straightforward with him that I’d support whatever choice he made. I went to the Hall with him a couple of times, I felt like chum in a shark tank, one lady even told me I wasn’t being fair to him because I supposedly “made him choose between me and his religion and {I} always made him go alone” …….. wow she was off the mark by a country mile. He was raised in that religion, not me, I never would’ve asked him to stop going to meetings.
if someone is offering a prayer in kindness and sincerity, I’m ok with that. The preachy “save your soul” prayers are the ones I don’t tolerate very well (many years on a parenting message board where those kind were given quite a lot). I may not believe Jesus was/is a deity, but he was a very intelligent insightful man, with pretty much the same basic fundamental messages as this pagan believes, now of course another pagan might not agree with me, that’s cool too. I wear a cross with my pentagram (we all have crosses to bear is my thinking on it).
I think what slapped me in the face was this line from Adam “I wasnāt overly worried about my wife or our son.” considering a dr told him to his face that by breaking quite a few traffic laws, he saved both of us. If he had tried to get us to the hospital I needed to be in, he’d have been a widower with an almost 3 year old son that was still in the care of quite a few specialists, none of which he knew.
It didn’t much have anything to do with my being a pagan, much more the fact that he has her on a pedestal. it’s a pattern. . . he gave her a christmas present and then another when she left. I’m the only one that didn’t have anything, and that sounds juvenile, but it’s also a pattern in my life starting in childhood (I could never do anything right – still can’t – and I was always the last one thought of…..see childish, but still hurtful to this day!)
It’s not a cake walk being a parent to a preemie, much less 2.
It sounds like Adam made some hurtful mistakes, DmmitHardison. Actually, itās obvious that he made some hurtful mistakes, yet you two keep moving forward. You both seem to care a lot about each other. I wonder what motivates you to work on your relationship with Adam. In some of his comments, it seems like you are putting effort into the relationship.
Thanks for giving some background information into the diversity of religions in your family. That is quite a variety. It is interesting that you wear a cross as a pagan person. I have to say that I know very little about paganism. When Adam said you were pagan, my husband and I looked up Pagan to try to understand what it means. I still donāt understand it. Do you have meetings with other pagans? Are there publications like scripture that pagans use?
Do you feel any better since you posted your side of the story on LwL? I have to admit that coming here feels like therapy for me. When I first came to LwL, I was full of shame for having feelings for another man and I was frustrated with my intrusive thoughts. I feel much better now. Iām still here because I like the community.
Lovisa,
You ask 50 pagans what it means, you’ll get 50 answers. No meetings (I’m what is considered a solitary pagan… I don’t go to coven meetings or circles), no scripture. I follow the 3 fold rule (put something bad out into the universe or do something to someone, it comes back at you 3 times… it is the same for good energy) and the basic golden rule that translates into almost every religion I’ve studied…. If you harm none, do what you will (love thy neighbor, treat others how you’d like to be treated etc etc). I personally believe the divine, if you want to call it that, is all around us
I wear a cross because I believe we have all have crosses to bear, for me it’s not a religious symbol, just like the phrase in Latin on my arm doesn’t have biblical context to me – it’s about my own demons in my head. Plus the one Adam gave me is the design of his original wedding band… design is worn down, it’s almost almond shaped and it was cutting into his finger, I had to get him a bigger size ring. He never took it off unless he had to, so it doesn’t look the same anymore.
I think I am more comfortable posting, as long as it doesn’t set him back or put him on guard in a way that interferes with his interaction with y’all.
Call my cynical or even pessimistic when it comes to gods of any kind. Ghosts, magic, spirits, hauntings, fate, soulmates, destiny, etc … I”m like America’s song “I never believed in things that I couldn’t see, I said if I can’t feel it then how can it be, No, no magic could happen to me”. And then I met LO. Something about limerence feels so unworldly.
Blame that on the religion I was raised, my parents, or just thinking for myself as I got older and more skeptical. I don’t blame any god for my misfortunes or trails. I also don’t thank any god for my blessings and happiness. Life is what we make it. At the same time I am not close minded to any of those things, gods included, being a reality if so can be proven or believed in.
Miss Lovisa
“Is alcohol such an effective escape that nothing else seems appealing?”
As far as other drugs, yes. Nicotine never stuck with me for life. I’ve tried pot and acid and both scared me. I’ve had so many people (even our oldest son) tell me pot is better and safer, but I don’t care for it. Alcohol has been with me for more than half my life and it is safe (I don’t drink and drive like I did when I was young) and familiar. I’ve learned over the years my limits so I don’t suffer from blackouts or hangovers. I know my limits, so for the most part it is “under control”. At least that’s what us functioning alcoholics like to think.
“Adam, do you think if we knew each other in person that you and Momma would enjoy hanging out with me and my husband without drinking?”
I think I could being that you two don’t drink. I’ve had better times in my life with my alcoholism. There’s been times I wasn’t drinking daily. I could go week(s) without drinking. The thing I recognize about my drinking is I am an “all or nothing” drinker. One drink sets it off. If I have to abstain for whatever reason I can. But if I get one beer/drink the trap is set. But if staying sober is how I would need to be to meet you and your husband I would happily do it. But the moment I went home/to the hotel I would be drinking. When there is no reason not to drink I cannot resist the temptation. And I have always wanted to try knife/axe throwing and I would definitely need to be sober for that.
” Oh heck, why not throw in some of the other LwL commenters?”
Yeah I would really like to meet L.E. in person. And Marcia, I enjoy her no candid in you face advice she has given me about my limerence and LO. And if Limmy were still around I would like her to be there. MJ would be a nice addition as well, he has that down to earth personality that makes comfortable to talk to him. Beth2 and Allie too. And our new addition Mango33. We could have a blast and a hell of a BBQ. I enjoy grilling. Hot dogs or brauts with relish (dill relish, sweet relish is ick) and sauerkraut with jalapeƱos in a tortilla. Yum. And rare NY strip steaks. Like just sear the outside and throw it on my plate with the middle still red and cold. š I like this idea Miss Lovisa.
Iām trying so hard to understand, but I just donāt. Iām sorry. Anyway, I would hang out with you whether or not you were drinking. I was just curious if hanging out with friends is enough of an escape or if the alcohol needs to be there, too.
That would be a nice time Adam.
Maaaaan would we have a lot to talk about.. I’ll bring the brats..
Lost In Space
“Adam, do you believe you could ever quit drinking?”
Honestly, no. I cannot see myself 100% sober. I can see me getting better and getting a handle on my not drinking daily. But I don’t ever see my overcoming this. Momma sorry I don’t mean to throw you under the bus. Some years ago my wife had to get a pin in her ankle. The only way she was mobile was to use a knee walker to get around. She has never smoked in the house because of the boys. So she would have to get outside to smoke. She’s been smoking since like 12-13 years old. So she took up vaping so she could do it in the house and stay in the bed. By the time she completely recovered (6 months or so?) it wasn’t but 2-3 weeks before she was back to cigarettes. I think even if I was institutionalized for my alcoholism, once I got out I would be right back to drinking. Maybe not as bad, but it is so much a part of me I don’t think I can beat this demon.
“When you look at other alcoholics whoāve quit, what do you think?”
I think that they have better self control than I do. I am not one of those alcoholism is a disease people. My alcoholism is squarely on my shoulders because I don’t have the strength to overcome it. Much like limerence. I can’t shrug it off on some random anomaly so that I feel less guilt for something that I am responsible for. Limerence and alcoholism are so similar I am not surprised I fell for the former like I did the later.
“Itās not LO. Itās the alcohol. Tell me itās not.”
In a way you maybe right. But honestly alcohol helps me escape LO. Unless it is confessing something about my limerence and LO to my wife that I could not otherwise do sober I don’t think about LO much with my addled drunk brain. It is again an escape. Most of my ruminations happen when I am sober. I think it is because my limerent brain gets retarded by alcohol. Just a theory.
“And he told me āyou canāt even start to do any of that internal work if youāre not soberā
Addiction does keep you in a loop yes. But there is a reason that the addiction became an addiction. Parents didn’t love you, some gal broke your heart, inadequacies, self esteem issues, depression, anxiety, etc. I think you have to conquer those external and internal issues as to why alcohol became an addiction and an escape. In my opinion alcoholism is the reaction to a deeper problem. Solving the deeper problem will help you move forward to sobriety. The kicker is as long as alcohol keeps you in the loop of addiction you won’t move forward to solve the deeper issue because the drinking is more satisfying. So to a point I agree with him, but in the bigger picture I don’t. What are you running from when you drink?
“Sheās just a pretty distraction.”
Yes she was. But I don’t think it is the drinking. LO was a pretty distraction from facing my wife head on with issues we have been experiencing in our marriage. Yes it was easier to look into LO’s pretty green eyes and smile than to tell my wife I am not sure I know how long this can work. Totally my fault. Selfish and shitty of me to do so. But I did. And that is my sin to atone for. And totally up to her to fix it with me or move on. I have no say in this.
“And itās 100% true that no one else can force you to do anything. No one can make an addict give up their drug of choice except the addict themself. But you do have a choice”
Yes I have to want to. And presently I don’t want to. I don’t know if honestly ever will. That is bare truth. I try to keep in under control as best as I can. The negative traits I can keep down for the most part. I don’t endanger anyone else. But I think I am beyond it despite your protests that I can overcome this. And I appreciate the kind words saying otherwise.
“Add me to the list of people here who have really come to like you and care about you.”
Thank you. I feel the same about you and everyone else here. I am so glad to have found this forum and the people in it. It has certainty been a blessing both to myself and my wife that we can both post here and move forward to try and understand my limerence. I appreciate the amount of concern and time you took into your post about my drinking. Most people just shrug it off (my parents included). If we have the BBQ Miss Lovisa mentioned in her post that I commented on we can have one of those real sugar Mexican Cokes together. Those are the next best thing to the ones with actual cocaine in them I’d imagine lol
āIn my opinion alcoholism is the reaction to a deeper problem.ā
Do you know what the deeper problem is?
Also, we had the BBQ in my head during my run. It was my method of escaping the pain Iām experiencing from the contention between my siblings. The fighting is killing me. I needed to forget my pain so I imagined an LwL community BBQ. It was awesome! It was the perfect escape for me!
Adam, youāre a really thoughtful guy with a lot of insight. Thanks for sharing so honestly. I always learn something from you and I like and respect you a lot.
āThe kicker is as long as alcohol keeps you in the loop of addiction you wonāt move forward to solve the deeper issue because the drinking is more satisfyingā
Thatās the catch-22, right. We drink because of our deeper issues, but then the drinking keeps us from being able to actually dig into those issues and move towards resolving them. Itās one of those coping mechanisms that gets you through the day each day but also just keeps you stuck.
I havenāt shared my alcohol story here yet, so Iām gonna do it now. Maybe itāll help someone else, maybe not. Iām already using this website as my therapy journal for everything else so I might as well tell this part of me too.
I come from a family where most of us are alcoholics, although interestingly neither of my parents were addicted to anything. My sister and I are both addicts though, so I guess it just skipped a generation. I started drinking at 16 and LOVED the feeling right from the first drink. I still remember how good that first drink felt, and I remember thinking how great it would be to be an adult and be able to feel like that all the time. From 16 to 20, I was a binge drinker – I had inconsistent access to alcohol, but when I did have access, I drank until either the booze ran out or I passed out. I was an anxious, introverted, and awkward teen with self esteem problems, and alcohol made all of that anxiety and self consciousness vanish, and replaced it with bravado and euphoria.
When I turned 21 and could buy whatever I wanted, I quickly became a daily drinker. I was functional – I graduated from college with honors, then went to work for 5 years and never missed a day of work. But I was also a mess. Iād drink on Sunday morning to treat the hangover from Saturday night. Sometimes Iād have a drink before work to treat the hangover. Occasionally Iād drink throughout the day at work.
I got lucky in regards to the law. I rarely drove drunk (mostly walked or biked or rode the bus) but one time I got pulled over 30 seconds after Iād handed the tequila bottle back to my friend. I failed the field sobriety test, blew God knows what into the breathalyzer, and for reasons Iāll never understand, the officer told me to get myself home and donāt do it again. Another time I got handcuffed for my role in a drunken fight at a football game but then the cops just let me go. Another time I threw a guy threw the jukebox at a bar and then his friends beat the crap out of me – the bar staff just told us to get out of there, never called the cops. Another time a guy came at me with a hatchet and I broke a beer bottle over a railing like in the movies and was like āletās goā but people broke it up – I probably would have gotten killed otherwise. Thatās the kind of stuff I spent my 20s doing, while simultaneously being married to my wife, working to support her while she went to college, and working myself into med school.
And none of that made me want to stop drinking. Honestly, it was fun, and I felt cool, and I figured that was just me, I was a functional alcoholic who could get drunk peacefully at home during the week, still make it to work every day, and then go a little crazy on the weekends.
I quit drinking at age 28 because I got tired of always having to apologize to my wife. Apologize for being 2 hours late for dinner. Apologize for going out āfor a quick beerā with my friends and coming home 5 hours later with no phone call. Apologize for embarrassing her in front of her friends. Apologize for being an asshole to her family. Apologize for vomiting in the bed while she was sleeping next to me. Apologize for always putting alcohol first and her second.
Iām also an all or nothing drinker. I can say no to the first one, but if I have one, I canāt say no to the second or the sixth or the 15th. For the last year of my drinking, Iād been trying to control my drinking, to learn to drink like a normal person. I couldnāt do it. The second time I vomited in bed next to my wife, she told me there wouldnāt be a third time. Either Iād quit drinking or sheād quit me. I believed her. And I wanted to believe her. I didnāt want her to stay with me out of obligation when I knew I was putting her through hell, when I didnāt believe she could respect me because I couldnāt respect myself.
And so I quit. I went around telling everyone I knew that I was quitting and why. I asked everyone to hold me accountable. My family was relieved. Most of my friends were like āyeah, call us up next month when youāre ready to party again.ā I lost a lot of friends. I kept a few. I had to learn to do things sober, to interact with people sober, to spend time with myself sober. It was really freaking hard, and 15 years later itās still hard sometimes. I was at an event tonight where most people there were drinking and dancing and I felt kinda disconnected and different. I stayed until it was time to leave and then I left. I stopped to write this on the way home. And when I get home, sober, at the time I said Iād be home, I wonāt have to apologize to my wife, and thatās worth more than anything to me.
“I havenāt shared my alcohol story here yet, so Iām gonna do it now.”
I think this is the problem. I have no super bad issues like that. Except when I was single I never went out and drank much. I didn’t have the drunken come homes to Momma. Not saying I never got drunk and embarrassed her. The last time that happened was like 10 years ago. But I have never been the go out and get drunk with the guys and come home. And certainly not to come off superior, I one time got so drunk I tried to open the car door while my wife was driving at 70mph on the highway to throw up drunk. But for the most part I have always been a solidary drinker. And that might actually be the worst.
They say it always takes hitting rock bottom. And when I don’t swing at my wife or hit my sons or drive drunk or punch holes in walls than it seems like it is a more manageable problem than it really is. When I have had enough to drink and am just ready to go to bed it doesn’t seem so bad. But in reality alcohol takes it’s toll mentally and physically no matter one’s reaction to it.
I think that is the one thing that is going to be my downfall; I feel I am still in control. Meanwhile the demon festers inside of me. I guess we will see how it plays out.
“Do you know what the deeper problem is?”
Yes. Too many people didn’t like how I turned out and I disappointed them with my life choices.
Are you sure? I feel like youāre placing blame on your family. Do they deserve it?
I am not trying to blame them. It is that I didn’t live up to their expectations. I wasn’t the son that they wanted me to be. I didn’t follow the path that they set out for me. How do I face them at life’s end? How do I look my mother in the eye in her last moments and tell her God is waiting for her when I don’t believe it? Lie to my mother?
Adam,
I don’t know what your family wanted you to be, but you aren’t a con artist or a pimp or a drug dealer or a grifter or taking advantage of other people.
You aren’t committing crimes against humanity.
You’re a man who goes to work every day and supports his family. And that’s enough.
And here’s another thing … when you get to the “certain age” that I have, a lot if not all of those relatives whose opinions and attention you were trying to win over … they won’t be here anymore. It sounds morbid, but it’s true. All of my older relatives, with a few exceptions of some distant ones, are gone. I spent a lot of time trying to please people who, for the second half of my life or maybe 40% of it, aren’t even here. And I either never could have pleased them or they were paying far less attention to what I was doing than I thought.
Adam, those are great questions. Are you saying that you havenāt had contact with your family for a while?
Marcia, he married outside the religion (a ‘worldly person’ ‘not in the truth’) and he used tobacco. . . he was punished for both. Pretty much sums it all up. . . .he didn’t “climb the hierarchy ladder.” (don’t ask me, it flabbergasts me and makes me hurt for him because to me, that’s petty crap — I wasn’t raised like that at all) After moving back to my home state, he pierced his ears, grew a goatee and his hair longer….that didn’t score any points either. He doesn’t have tattoos, but I do, I guess I was supposed to ask for permission from him to get them and he was supposed to tell me no *shrug*.
How about- “You were a wonderful mother. Thank you. I love you”
DmmitHardison,
“Marcia, he married outside the religion (a āworldly personā ānot in the truthā) and he used tobacco. . . , I guess I was supposed to ask for permission from him to get them and he was supposed to tell me no *shrug*.”
Are you talking about yourself or Adam?
If you are talking about Adam, it sounds like his family doesn’t love and support him for who he is.
I don’t know if this is the case, but if hanging around his family makes him feel bad about himself, then limit the time. Put up some boundaries and reduce expectations for whatever he was hoping to get from them. Maybe they can’t give it. Maybe they don’t want to.
Life is too short to spend it with people who make you feel bad. Regardless of who they are.
Marcia, you said you didn’t know what they wanted him to be, everything opposite of what he did is what they wanted. That’s what I meant by that.
We didn’t have to limit contact, they followed the shunning rule after they knew about the Copenhagen use. After he stopped dipping, there was a little contact, but we’re at least 10 hour driving time away.
What hurt me was I could see that he was hurt. I think that might have been one reason he and my Mom were so close, she loved him just as he was…he is their (my mom and dad) son in their eyes.
I am the one with the now very little if at all contact with any family besides my dad and sisters. All those ties were broken when Mama passed in 2008, they were obliterated when my Grandma passed in 2021.
My mother and father don’t approve of the direction of my life or my wife. I don’t hate them for it. Their beliefs are their beliefs. I would take a sword for her. I don’t care what they think. I am certain that my mother has her doubts but dutifully follows along with father. I fear looking my mother in her eyes and having to tell her something I don’t believe. Something I fear she doesn’t believe. My mother’s inevitable death scares me. My father’s doesn’t.
Marcia
I actually care less about what people think about me now than when I was younger. Now I am who I am and you can like it or not. I do miss being close to my sibling and parents but it is what it is. I can’t change how people see me or feel about me. If I am the damned black sheep than I am. No one liked the parodical son either. I guess I am just Christian fodder for the devil. Hopefully hell isn’t sobriety for me.
I am drunk and as long as no one of there’s knows all is good. Suffer in silence. Ok enough depression. Time to stuff my face with Taco Bell, vodka and watch some comedy. Sinbad’s Brain Damaged if my damn Xbox 360 will work.
@Adam,
I’ve been quietly reading your posts. It sounds like you have a drama-filled life like I do. Like many of us here do. It is no wonder we all have our escapes with LOs. They are that oasis in the madness. At least mine is. I probably don’t drink to the extent that you do, but know if my day has been extra rough emotionally, I will kick back with one, maybe two. Three if I’m cooking brats on the grill, yum!
A few years back, my addiction counselor said when we try to let go of one addiction, our minds default to wanting another. Perhaps your drinking is that go-to between wanting to rid yourself of LO and keeping your marriage in-tact. Yet all those family issues and real life, keep getting you caught up back in to wanting to escape from it all. Hence an intrusive LO thought. Then you’re right back there missing her again. It’s a vicious cycle.
You love the hell out of your Wife. I know you do. (I still love the hell out of my Ex. )(And she even sold my classic car in the divorce, holy F#%@!!) but the limerence Monster won’t let go. Even when we want it to. It’s pure aggravation. A drink sounds good.
I work for one of the Big-3 auto makers. I am good at what I do and I am proud of my accomplishments there. But had I ever known that eventually there would be this one cute little fair-skinned blonde Latina, who would eventually find a home there to work with us too, and become my most precious LO, I never would have accepted the job offer. It sounds crazy, but it’s the truth. I never asked for this. It just happened. Now I have to trudge through, keep myself sane and try not to make it any more of a mess than it already is.
None of what you’ve been dealt, is probably what you asked for either. But I’m glad you seem to be unwavering in how you want to move ahead. I’m happy your wife supports you. (Holy crap if only my ex had that stamina) And I’m glad you are proud of your Boys.
You have always seemed to give very down to earth, factual, doable advice here. (I wish I could be more like you on how I can relate to others here.)
Be proud of that. It’s a wonderful thing.
I’m praying for you, your Family and your Future.
Hopefully we can meet up one day, at that Lwl BBQ.
Ada,.
“I am drunk and as long as no one of thereās knows all is good. Suffer in silence. Ok enough depression. Time to stuff my face with Taco Bell, vodka and watch some comedy. ”
Well, I don’t have alcohol issues but have had off- and on-food issues so I certainly understand how hard those addictions are to overcome. I believe that alcohol or food or even limerence is a coping mechanism to fill some kind of hole. I’ve noticed that when I have food in check, I’m usually limerent! So I just trade one for the other. I know now intellectually that I do that; it’s just getting myself to stop emotionally that can be hard.
But I’m sure you know that alcohol won’t fill the hole. But neither will limerence. It’s not all that fulfilling pining over someone you can’t have. Or in my case, was hardly losing sleep over the fact that he couldn’t have me.
” It is no wonder we all have our escapes with LOs.”
For me I think that it is accepting being human. I wasn’t really given the chance to be human. I had to be this perfect example. A son of God. A good Christian boy with no sin and no temptation.
I think Momma probably figured it out then, but I’ll give an example. We got married in October 1999. Momma moved with me to St Louis. I gave her a plane ticket and sent her home on Thanksgiving because I had to work. Christmas 1999 I flew with her back home for the holiday. That Christmas I met my wife’s cousin and the man she was with, they weren’t married yet. I instantly had a huge crush on her. She is such a sweet, caring and pretty lady. I immediately felt shame and guilt for seeing another woman in those eyes when I was married. I have since found her to be a wonderful friend, and I think very highly of her as a mother and wife. And her and her husband are easily two of my favorite people in my wife’s family.
Fast forward to LO. I got attached to her and her daughter real fast. My wife’s cousin and her (not yet) husband had a boy when I met them. Or soon after. I was (and honestly still am) not a fan of kids. At least so young they cannot articulate what they need. But I entertained their boy and he seemed to like me when he was young. Then they had a daughter. She had an affectionate name for me because she couldn’t say my name. Ugh now she’s a grown woman with a bf. Boy better keeps his hands to himself grrrrr. Anyway she was another daughter I never had.
I didn’t have a lot of choices growing up. Thoughts were as sinful as actions. There was a woman at church that was very attractive. She was well into her 50’s when I was 20 something but she didn’t let that stop her from being a woman. I spent many sinful nights thinking about her. Knowing there was a special place in hell for me didn’t stop me. I was unable to express that part of growing into a man. Those thoughts of her were a sin and I shouldn’t be dwelling on them regardless of whether I acted on them or not.
Momma can comment or not if she wants to, but LO and her daughter are my guilt and shame resurfacing again. A woman I think of dearly. The daughter I never had. And never will. The friend that should have treated right, unlike her cheating pos ex. Trying to be the he man that her father was absent in. These two ladies deserved at least what little I could try to give them. But unfortunately my wanting to help turned into stupid limerence and I *uck** it all up.
LO is years of repression. The culmination of suppressing any thought of another woman (outside of family) coming close to my heart. I did it one time many years ago and that turned out to a disaster on the Twister level tornado. And Momma forgave me that. But unlike being flattered by a much younger lady, LO got to me in ways I didn’t realize. Why was LO’s daughter’s approval of me important? Especially after LO started seeing her gentleman friend? That was his job now. And he did it well. He brought LO, her daughter and her daughter’s friend that was there at work on her last day snow cones. LO and her daughter love snow cones š He’s a good man.
I always come back to Miss Lovisa’s comment (here in this thread when I first came here) that I had a natural instinct to protect, preside and provide with LO and her daughter. But I have my own wife and children to do that for. And I strive to do it everyday. Why LO and her daughter and not the countless other women I have met in my life? Why are they so damn special?
“I never asked for this. It just happened.”
The limerence yes. Meeting LO and having an actual healthy co-worker/friendship with her I wouldn’t give up for anything. But unfortunately the limerence ruined it and might be why she keeps her distance. In a lot of ways Momma and LO are alike. It would have been nice to see them friends. They both certainly have the temper that makes the devil seem shy lol
This song is one my wife has not liked. I had tailored lyrics for the chorus about LO. She even heard me singing them. I know there is no apology I can muster. But I was sitting playing Breath of the Wild the other night when this song came in on my playlist and it’s now Momma’s.
“Her eyes are brown
Her hair is silver
in 78 she was born in Elk City
Her father’s tall
Her mother’s gone
She lived out west her whole life
The way she laughs
The was she loves
Oh my god what did I do?”
What Mattered Most — Ty Herndon
https://youtu.be/-QqdHi-dSMo
I would do anything for my wife’s cousin’s daughter. And according to my wife that is mind my own damn business and trust her choice in a man. I don’t even trust my own gender. Look where I am now in that regards. I don’t know why you ladies put up with us. But I am grateful at least one of you does.
I watched a really weird alien movie last night. I got paranoid. I have an irrational fear of alien abduction. Damn grays! But Momma assured me that there were none in the house until I could finally go to sleep last night. And then I come to work and there is another huge damned wolf spider in the office. But he is keeping to opposite side of the office so I will leave him alone Miss Lovisa. Maybe a short prayer to God if he starts over my way?
Adam,
Did you ever watch “The X-Files?”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelers_(The_X-Files)
OT: I stood under a poster of Muldur and Scully with 2 FBI Special Agents at the Alien Museum in Roswell, NM, around 2012. I was working with them on a project at the time.
Unfortunately, they wouldn’t let me take a picture with them.
I don’t like spiders either. In college, I came home and saw one climbing up the wall of my dorm room. I hadn’t seen one like that before so I trapped it in a brandy snifter. Sure, enough, it had a big red hourglass on its belly. I took it to the dorm office. They told me to come back after lunch. The gave me a bug bomb, told me to turn my mattresses against the wall, open all the drawers to everything, open the closet door, pull the pin, leave and sleep somewhere else that night.
We actually met for the first time in an X-Files chatroom back then. We were both fans of the show. After we got together I even bought her a Scully suit….. for, uh … you know ….. scientific reasons.
I actually laughed out loud when I saw the question LE. Travelers was a great episode, I think I liked The Unnatural episode more though. I’ll always protect him from the greys, I figured that out real quick when he couldn’t take a bath or shower without his head hanging out watching the door because he watched Communion.
At least he’s forgiven me for flipping a female wolf spider at him by accident. I was trying to get her out of the house, he was holding the door and she went flying at him. (whooops!) For me, it’s scorpions, I have flat out panic attacks over those, they scare the bejeeebus out of me. They make my skin crawl.
Baby Girl (what I call our female cat) is a bug hunter, she will pounce anything she sees. So at least there’s that!
And Adam, I’ve never said mind your own business, I said that he was a great young man that treats her like she’s priceless. During her medical emergencies, he never left her side. Believe me, she’s got enough of Grandpa’s personality in her that she put him on notice, and don’t forget she was a champion soccer player š
Lol, those wolf spiders are creepy. I apologized to every wolf spider on the trail last night. āIām sorry I was mean to your friends.ā It was a lot of apologies. My daughterās boyfriend kept saying, āWhat?ā Then Iād say, āIām just apologizing to the spiders.ā I think I saw about ten of them. There werenāt any clusters of them like on Monday, thank goodness. Good luck with your wolf spider, Adam!
All I’ll say about alcohol is:
– My father pulled a .45 on one of my HS friends in our basement one night. Luckily, it was unloaded.
– My father put a .380 pistol to his head less than a week after a doctor told him he was hypoglycemic and HAD to quit drinking. If you don’t know where to aim, use a larger caliber weapon. He lasted 12 hours until my cousin pulled the plug on him because I was in transit.
– My mother died on her mother’s couch. Her death certificate reads: “Cause of death: Placidyl poisoning from ingesting placidyls and alcohol.” She’d hide Scope bottles between the mattresses. She was 3 sheets to the wind but her breath was minty fresh.
– After my wife went on a bender while I was on a business trip and our kids were taken in by neighbors, I spent $600 consulting one of the best divorce sharks in town before I’d visit her in the rehab center. Good divorce lawyers don’t come cheap.
– I broke my foot flying out of work because my daughter told something to the school counselor that tripped some trigger and I had to go get her.
– The counselor at the county crisis center told me that he’d sign an affidavit recommending I get sole custody of the kids and my wife get supervised visitation. She was one drink away from losing her marriage and her kids.
Alcohol can kill you.
Lovisa,
Not a lot of time to write, but I just wanted to tell you I am out west and the hiking is unbelievable. We come out here in the summer every few years (ski every year in the winter). I am having all the feels as I hike trails I did in my early 20s before I was married (wondering if my not-yet husband was going to propose), then when my children were babies in a backpack (they were adorable in their little sun hats)… and later years when they could hike on their own and were so proud of themselves when we reached the summit. Now finally just my SO and me. I will admit I love being here just the two of us. I adore my children and know they are ridiculously happy at their overnight camp, but it is wonderful just having time with my husband. We have really been pushing ourselves. Well, I have been pushing myself. My husband is like you- an insane athlete and would happily do a 20 mile trail run! We did 10 hard miles yesterday. My lungs and legs were burning. I felt so alive. The wildflowers are blooming and there is still patches of snow on the trail. It’s wonderful. I feel so lucky.
I have been having some intrusive thoughts about my LO, but am working hard on changing the narrative in my mind. I hope you are well. I haven’t had time to do a lot of reading on LWL but I LOVE D the bar-b-que post. Can I bring some vegetarian food as well? I’ll go on every rollercoaster with you and the gang.
Hi Summer,
I donāt want to distract you from your heavenly vacation. You have lived a good life. Itās fun looking back on those hikes at different stages. Today, we are taking my whole family to the summit of the mountain behind our house. Itās my birthday present. Our son was at our house yesterday and all the girls were there, too. I took them to the back patio and pointed to the peak and said, āThatās what I want for my birthday. I want my whole family on that peak.ā Theyāve been planning it ever since. It will be all seven of us plus my very adventurous 10-year-old niece who loves to hang out with our family. Weāre going after church, of course.
Iām glad that you adore your kids. I love mine, but donāt always like them.
Those roller coaster rides sound fun. You and me get the front seat when we ride the Rockin Roller Coaster at Disney World.
Hi Lovisa,
Happiest of birthdays! I’m so excited for your birthday hike! Tell me all about it. That is exactly what my husband and I do to celebrate our birthdays. I hope things went ok with your son… How did the little ones do on the hike? I hope there was lots of camp singing. Even when they complain hiking is the best gift!
We did a truly spectacular hike today. It had all the things: coniferous forrest blending into aspens and birches, plenty of river crossings, open meadows with wildflowers and a breath taking view. Lots of snow at the peak. The altitude got to me at the very end but there were rain clouds in the distance so we had good motivation to push through.
My mind was wandering in directions I didn’t want it to at some points. It’s hard because I write letters to my LO in my mind even when I am fighting to stay present. On the other hand, I often spend my time fantasizing about my SO which feels completely appropriate!
For me, being in nature is the closest thing I have to religion. I love the quiet time for contemplation… but sometimes it is hard not to let thoughts of LO creep in. I really would love suggestions on how to stay focused on other things!
In my normal life, I am generally so busy I go long periods without thinking about him- so in a weird way vacation is actually a tricky time for limerence. Despite having a truly unbelievable time with my SO.
I want a full birthday update!
Summer, I am dirty and stinky. I will fill you in on the details of my birthday hike in a minute, but first I want to address your thoughts of LO. Iām sorry youāre struggling. I bet you have mixed feelings. You want to be loyal to your SO. You miss your LO. Ugh, that is so hard. Maybe you have to accept that memories of your LO are a part of your story. These feelings and thoughts may never leave you. Iām sorry.
On a happier note, your hike sounds wonderful! I love how peaceful it is when you get up to an area where very few people go. Itās clean and beautiful. It feels like Godās garden.
My hike didnāt quite go as planned. You are going to get a chuckle out of this. My eighteen-year-old daughterās boyfriend joined us at the last minute. Nine people started at the trailhead. By 1.25 miles, we were down to two people. So today I summited the mountain with my daughterās boyfriend. Bahahah! It was fun. He is a nice kid. Iām proud of him for going all the way. But itās funny that we hiked 6.25 miles with just the two of us. My SO would have finished the hike with us, but he had to be the responsible adult with the group that turned around. If my SO had come with us, it would have been his third summit this week. We did it on Monday and he did it alone on Friday. Iām so proud of him!
Your vacation sounds lovely.
Just checking in to vent a little, because I had a rough day yesterday. Firmly planted in mood 4 all day (on the unofficial Speedwagon mood scale).
The last few weeks SO and I have been on a few shorter vacations. Been away from the office for a bit, and away from LO, and for a few moments I could almost feel what life would be like if LO were not in my life and I could be NC. It felt nice, more peaceful. But then this week, on the day I returned to the office I did something stupid. I decided to take LO on a work outing. I didn’t manufacturer this one, there was a legitimate outing I needed to do and taking LO made business sense since it is something she is working on. But at the same time it was not 100 percent necessary to take her and I rationalized myself into it. So we spent the whole morning together, 4.5 hours mostly alone. As always the chemistry felt good. Not any heavy conversation but decent chit chat. It all felt really good to be out with her and alone with her after so many weeks of keeping her at arms length. Later in the day I doubled down on my lapse of judgement and followed up with a text about something we had chit chatted about earlier. We had a short back and forth that ended in heart emojis. It’s all very warm and nice, but I can clearly see for her it is just friendship based, while for me it’s heavy romantic interest.
But then…THE CRASH! Doesn’t take long, by the evening I felt it coming on then yesterday was in full meltdown mode. Heavy rumination, disappointment, guilt, anger, lust, desire. You name it, I felt it. Ended up leaving office early as my concentration was shot and spent the evening pretty much vegging out to TV not wanting to deal with anyone. Luckily SO had some things to take care of so she was not requiring my attention at all.
Here is what I realize about these episodes, why spending time alone with LO is so dangerous. In my LE state I always have a level of latent romantic desire for LO. Most days at the office I can go about business as usual and keep from stimulating that desire. I come home, don’t have any expectations of LO, and get on with life. But alone time with LO will stimulate the latent desire into immediate desire, and immediate desire requires feeding. More immediate interaction with LO. Reciprocation from LO. It’s a desire for immediate attention from her. When that doesn’t come, then the disappointment sets in and the depressive crash soon follows.
Good news, I understand it and I know if I do X, then Y will follow. It’s a predictable occurance so just keep from doing it. Problem this time around, I just forget how low the low can feel so I give in thinking it will be OK. Well, not really OK. I don’t like feeling like this and would prefer to avoid it as much as possible.
I’m going to now make another big LC push as it really is the best way to tamper my desires for LO and coexist with her.
Iām sorry you had such a rough few days, Speedwagon. It makes sense that you let your guard down. I suspect you were curious to see if youāve recovered enough that close contact with LO wouldnāt be so troubling. Itās like you tested the water to see if the temperature cooled off. I think there is an article about this. Itās a common practice for us limerents. Donāt be too hard on yourself for it. I like your renewed interest in LC. I like how well you can put your experience into perspective. I think youāre on the right path and you just experienced a brief set back. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Best wishes!
1000000000% this. EXACTLY the pattern.
I’m so sorry about your rough few days, Speedwagon. I suspect that all of us here could have written this comment word-for-word: we’ve all been there, and have the scars to prove it. The good news is that you’ve done so much work over the last few months to get out of the LE hole, and my guess is the muscle memory will be helpful as you recover from this setback. All my best to you as you do so…
And lovely words as always, Lovisa! You’re always so supportive. I hope you’re well.
Thanks, TP. I hope you are well, too. Itās good to see you.
Miss Lovisa you are back! I couldn’t remember what thread you posted in but I am glad you are back. I know people have a lot of things going on in their lives. But I hadn’t seen you post and got worried about you. Glad to know you are okay. Don’t scare me like that š
I am hoping that Momma will share something here when she wakes up. It is something that happened last night due to my limerence and I am curious to hear ya’lls opinion on it. I don’t remember it so she will have to be the one to share. From what she said to me it is the lowest point in my limerence and I do not know why it happened when I am feel I am so close to getting over this.
Hope that you and your husband and family are doing well. I also look forward to seeing your name on recent posts.
Hey Lovisa, I’m glad you’re back too. I had wondered if decided to check out. Just wanted to say thanks again for hooking me up with C4C. She’s lovely and we’re getting along great at the Coffeehouse drinking tea. You know, Tea 4 Two.. š¤£
Lol, thanks Mj. I noticed that itās going well for both of you. I donāt see a downside to this, either. I think you two can be a support for each other while you each get through some big life struggles. Also, the fact that your interactions are anonymous and monitored by other people gives you both a little protection. I think itās a win win.
Itās good to hear from you. I hope things are going well with your dad. Parkinsonās is so hard. I used to take care of a man with Parkinsonās. My heart goes out to your dad.
Thank you Lovisa, you’re very sweet. So glad you are back with us.
Ahhh that’s sweet :-). I enjoy our chats (I actually typed ‘cats’ then by mistake but I know you DEFINITELY don’t enjoy cats!)
And hi to Lovisa, nice to see you.
And I am currently doing the whole swing between LC/back down the rabbit hole at the moment too, Speedwagon. I don’t even like rollercoasters, grrr.
Ok Cat, looks like we’re stuck together. I’m not complaining, so I’ll get us a pitcher of tea.. We’re probably going to need it..
šāā¬šš¤·āāļø
Drunk, plastered, *trying* to say stuff to me but I couldn’t understand much (I’d catch snippets and then garbles, and then sometimes ‘mama’ and then your LOs name), it was as if you had 5 cotton balls or jumbo marshmallows stuffed in your mouth for the majority of time. I kept telling you to just go to sleep because my frustration level was at 11 (between my hearing and the stuff marshmallow sound, I knew I was about to lose my cool).
I left the bedroom to check on our son. You kept calling out and he told you I was in the bathroom, which was 100% true…..ah and then you start yelling LO’s name over and over and over again. He walked back there again and said “Dad, shut up, there’s no one here with that name, GO TO SLEEP!”
He came in to the kitchen, hunched over while fighting back tears and told me “I don’t know what happened, I’m not sure I want to know”. I hugged him, told him he did nothing wrong, and he thought we were fighting because I had to keep saying What, HUH, Repeat! before I left the room. I explained there was no fight, I just couldn’t understand you and I was getting frustrated that’s why. He got that part because he knows I have to ask people to repeat themselves.
He was hurt because one thing our children are not, is stupid or oblivious. He asked who XYZ was you were yelling for and I told him you’d have to answer that one.
He took his night meds, fell asleep pretty quickly and I full blasted music reaction videos in my headphones. Checked on you a couple times and I didn’t go to sleep until 9:30 this morning.
I think that is what you wanted me to tell them. I told you this morning, he wouldn’t say anything to you or ask questions but our son was hurt last night and it wasn’t because they saw me hurting (unfortunately they are used to that because of outside stuff).
Hi DmmitHardison aka Adamās real- life wife aka Momma, it sounds like you had a rough night. You are an amazingly strong woman! You endured some hard stuff and you still reacted with kindness and patience. Seriously wow!
Adam, grrrrrrrr. Iām kind of upset and probably shouldnāt say anything when Iām upset, but grrrrrrrr. Adam, I think your drinking is a problem for your family. Oh gosh, I donāt know where to begin.
Here is the thing. The fighting with my siblings has me thinking, āThis is why people drink.ā I would love to numb this misery and Iāve actually thought about alcohol (I doubt I would actually do it). But one night, I was in physical pain because the fighting was so bad. I thought about that video you sent me about the guy who escapes his problems with alcohol. I wondered, āIf I drank alcohol right now, would I feel better? Would there be a downside to it?ā Just to put that into perspective, I havenāt had alcohol since 1997. And I never used it to escape. I drank a few times with friends. I didnāt do it many times though. Probably less than ten times. So I donāt even understand it much. I wanted to ask your thoughts about me possibly drinking alcohol to cope with the stress of my fighting siblings. Iāve been wanting to get on LwL and ask you, but Iām so gosh darn busy lately. Anyway, what are your thoughts about that?
Itās so interesting that I wanted to talk to you about drinking even before the incident last night. This incident that Momma posted really bothers me. Adam, ugh. I am very concerned for your son. Can you discuss it with him? Oh goodness. Adam, I want to hear your thoughts about the incident. I want to hear how this plays out with your son, too. Just to be clear, I still think highly of you, but I am very concerned.
Lovisa,
The song Dear Alcohol is about Dax’s life & journey with alcoholism and recovery into sobriety. My journey into sobriety, I’d lay odds, was **way** different than Dax’s (everyone has a similar yet completely different experience, just keep that in mind).
Alcohol wouldn’t help your stress with dealing with your siblings. You might feel better until you wake up with a hangover, then you have a hangover *and* fighting siblings.
It wasn’t the drinks that messed with our son, it was the fact he knew something was way off when I wouldn’t explain the name his dad was yakking about in his sleep (and he can be completely sober and still do it…. I swear everybody in this house sleep talks …..even me which has been happening since I was little..I actually growled at my Mama’s brother one time when I was 7) because only a couple topics aren’t given full discussion usually. That’s not my place or story to tell. Adam has to decide how much if anything the boys know about this LE, they aren’t oblivious as I said so both of them know *something* isn’t right. But he won’t discuss it with his dad, he’ll shut down and say I don’t know to any question he doesn’t want to discuss.
We are the only parents out of the boys’ friends that aren’t divorced, on our 2nd or 3rd marriage etc etc.
I brought up how blitzed he was because that fed into my frustration of have to tell someone to repeat what they’ve said numerous times. That’s why our boy thought we were fighting, I explained, he knows about my hearing and since he has a speech issue, he knows what it’s like to have people constantly asking him to repeat. The boys are really great about making eye contact and my reading lips when they are talking to me. Adam seems to forget and that can lead to frustration on both sides.
and don’t let your siblings get to you too much, if they start in on each other or you just say yep I need some air walk outside and carefully kick some rocks or break fallen tree limbs.
Thanks for your reply, DmmitHardison. I think youāre right that drinking alcohol wouldnāt solve my problems. My siblings would still be fighting and I would have a hangover. Of course my siblings would pause the fight to say, āWhy did Lovisa take up drinking in her forties? Who does that?!?ā
Thanks for clarifying the message of that song. I didnāt think that guy was working towards sobriety at all. I guess I misunderstood.
Please forgive my naĆÆvetĆ©, it seems like the drinks are the problem. It seems like Adam wouldnāt behave like that if he were sober.
ā We are the only parents out of the boysā friends that arenāt divorced, on our 2nd or 3rd marriage etc etc.ā
It is impressive that you guys are beating the odds.
Kicking rocks or breaking sticks sounds like great stress relief. Thanks for the tip.
Lovisa, I wish there was a ‘smash room’ in every city. Just a place with donated old items (broken tv’s, fax machines, plates etc) that people in protective gear can smash with baseball bats or tire irons. That’s all I wanted to do when my mama passed away, just throw plates and other stuff to safely get the anger out. I remember telling a friend whose husband died of SADs (it’s just like SIDs, only it happens as an adult) he had no cardiac disease, no underlying or undiagnosed issues at all, yet got out of bed said something to her and seconds later fell to his floor in full cardiac arrest. My advice to her was break old chipped plates, glasses, coffee mugs etc and scream….she had the Canadian forest behind her house, so she could safely do that away from their son.
Of course, your siblings might stop and say ‘why is she all of a sudden drinking’, they’d really stop and wonder why you were breaking stuff though. Just don’t aim anything at anyone *general disclaimer*…. I have found over the years, the death of a loved one does 1 of 2 things: Either brings out the best or the ugliness/hatefulness in people, and it puts stress on the body and mind. So be gentle with yourself.
And you are welcome about the song meaning, I found Dax on FB reels long before I showed Adam the song. It does sound like he’s speaking of the here and now but it’s really just an autobiographical about what he had done and was like in the past… He has another one about keyboard bullies and general ugliness hidden being ‘anonymous’ screen names called Joker, it sounds like he’s agreeing when really he’s calling it out (it does have cuss words but a great message really).
Take care of You!
I love your ideas, DmmitHardison! Thanks for addressing my issues with me, too. Iām going to break something the next time my emotions get too big. Iāll let you know how it goes.
We have smash rooms, but they cost $45 for a session. Iām too cheap for that. But Iāve heard they are a lot of fun. My sister-in-law did it and loved it. Iāll think about it.
Thanks Adam, life just got very busy. The situation with my siblings is breaking my heart. I hope we get through this with our relationships in tact. Two of my brothers recommended that I disown my sister. I wonāt disown a family member and Iām not happy with those two for their willingness to disown our sister. Of course there is so much more to it, but it gives me sorrow and physical pain to have my family fighting the way they are fighting. Sometimes I think Mj is lucky to be an only child. Whenever I have that thought, I can hear Mj say, āJust a minute C4Cat, I need to address something with Lovisa. Lovisa, are you crazy? I wish I had a sibling to fight with!ā By the way, Iām not doing the fighting. Both sides are āventingā their frustrations to me. It is killing me! Anyway, I think of the team at LwL often even though I havenāt been here. Iāve read a few posts, I just havenāt had time to be involved.
Adam, I am looking forward to reading Mommaās account of what happened with your limerence. Thank you so much for your kind greeting.
I’m sorry you’re struggling with your siblings, Lovisa. I have a slightly difficult relationship with my sister which has led to lots of upset for me in the past. Recently I realised she’s neurodivergent like me but in ways that clash with mine, so no wonder we’ve always struggled. That has helped me to understand her behaviour, even though I still don’t like it. I don’t know what your situation is but being the piggy in the middle is so hard. My parents have quite a toxic relationship and they both try to complain to me about each other but I won’t acknowledge it any more. I try but there is little I can do to help when neither of them will do anything to make it better and I live five hours’ drive away.
DmmitHardison, that sounds like it was a very painful experience and I’m so sorry your son got involved. I don’t have any wisdom to offer but I feel for you.
Adam… not sure what to say. I bet you feel awful. š
Thanks Cat, I hope things get better in your family. Iām glad youāre trying to understand your sister. That sounds like a tricky situation, but youāre working towards a resolution and that is awesome.
Being the piggy in the middle is no fun. It kind of feels the same as the fighting between my parents when we were kids. They were awful to each other after they divorced. My oldest brother and only sister are carrying on the tradition I guess.
“Adam, grrrrrrrr. Iām kind of upset and probably shouldnāt say anything when Iām upset, but grrrrrrrr. Adam, I think your drinking is a problem for your family. ”
You have every right to be angry with me Miss Lovisa. I deserve it. I want this woman out of my head. It’s not a possible fairy tale with a possible happy ending like with MJ and his LO where they could possibly be together. I don’t want to put my wife through this. Or apparently our youngest boy now too. But I got limerent sober. My sober, 100% functional brain is what started this all. And I don’t say that to justify my drinking, just the truth. What if I’d never met her? Would it be just another woman or would it never have happened? What is the issue for me? I love my wife. I want nothing more than her to be the only one in my head. Does her skin crawl when I touch her wondering who I am thinking of?
” I wanted to ask your thoughts about me possibly drinking alcohol to cope with the stress of my fighting siblings. ”
Some people can drink in an instance to escape a situation and be fine. Not turn it into an addiction. Some people can’t, like me. The only way you can find out is try it. Not something I would suggest. Functioning alcoholism is one the worst things. On the outside you seem totally normal. Outside of my immediate family my alcoholism is completely oblivious to most of my and my wife’s family. My co-workers at the jobs I have over the years. My wife told me one of her uncles (not the one she mentioned that got sober) is a functioning alcohol and even as one myself I had no clue. He’s ninja level discreet apparently.
I was sitting on the porch before posting this and staring at the glass I had made my first drink for the day at 9am. Dax’s song came to mind “Looking at this bottle having nothing but doubt, I don’t want to drink but it keeps coming around and around and around”.
I thought of a way I might be able to express my drinking in terms you might understand Miss Lovisa. I remember you talking about your “runner’s high”. One of the things that I learned when I quit snuff was that the routine is just as much of a addiction to break as the actual substance itself. You enjoy running. It may have health benefits but you enjoy the actual activity. You aren’t running to chase the “runner’s high” you enjoy the activity that gets you that high as well. So imagine someone saying you can’t run anymore. Not only will you miss the running itself but also the high that it gives you. That’s the closest I think I can explain the allure of drinking to you Miss Lovisa.
“I am very concerned for your son. Can you discuss it with him?”
I don’t know. I don’t know if he would want to discuss it. Our oldest boy will come right and say whatever the hell he wants to lol. So much like his mother. Our youngest not so much. He is more like me. He will confide in his mother before he does me, at least with personal feelings like what he witnessed that night. I don’t think he will ever bring it up to me. I would have to start that conversation and I am not sure I am brave enough for that. I like to think that there is still some innocence in him and I don’t want to dump the life of an adult on him at 17 with trying to explain to him that is father has an obsession with another woman that isn’t his mother.
“Please forgive my naĆÆvetĆ©, it seems like the drinks are the problem. It seems like Adam wouldnāt behave like that if he were sober.”
Is it possible that this damn limerence would go away faster, if I didn’t drink? Possibly. Or perhaps sobriety wouldn’t be the escape I need to forget her. Maybe the alcohol makes it worse. I know in general alcohol is destructive in excess. But I feel the limerence is at it’s core something more than my drinking. Maybe the drinking exasperates it but I don’t think sobriety would make anything different. Though I know that sounds like me justifying my drinking. And maybe subconsciously it is. LO appealed to me for a reason. Does the lower inhibitions of being drunk make it easier to dwell on her vocally? That’s possible. But the question is why does this woman appeal to me so much? Why can’t I forget her? Why is my family falling apart for her? This woman has bewitched me and it’s at the expense of everything I have worked for since long before I met her. Why?
This is totally a tangent. But I feel I need to share this. I know how life can be difficult sometimes. Especially with this limerence and the other issues we are fighting with together. It is very easy to take a spouse for granted. I remember chasing miles to put food on the table when our first son was born 14 weeks early. I was working 10-16 hour days to provide while my wife spent days in a row at the NICU with our son. I remember one night I got to the hotel she was at that was right by the hospital after I got off work. I was in the early morning, like 3am and I had been having some drinks. This was probably a month after he was born. I asked my wife if I could hold him. He was so tiny. I was so scared. I didn’t want to hold my own son. Yet she would go to feed him daily and pump milk for when she couldn’t be there for the nurses to feed him. She tirelessly looked after him for months until they released him to come home. It was 3 months before they let him come home. She took care of him all that time.
Anyway this song is about the struggles people go through. In this particular song; men. I think every man, woman and child should hear this song, so I am just tagging this at the end of this long post. Dax actually returned to his hometown in Kansas and spent time with locals to make this music video. All this people in this video are real people with their own stories not actors.
“Unconditional love is for women, children and dogs”
To Be A Man — Dax
https://youtu.be/tHxip2x-PLc
Adam, thanks for your thoughtful response. I understand what you mean about how alcohol is important to you when you compared it to my running. Every time I get injured, I am so frustrated if I canāt run. Every cell in my body screams out āplease take us running.ā But a small cluster of cells around the injury say, āOh no you donāt, Lovisa. We will punish you if you go running.ā (My cells call me Lovisa, btw). I hate when anything stands between me and the trail. Iām not even polite about it sometimes, so I guess I understand.
Thanks for the song. I havenāt listened to it yet because Iām replying first. Half of my siblings live in Kansas. Itās beautiful! There are lovely community trails with lots of flora and shade.
Well, good luck with your son. I had to tell my oldest daughter about my inappropriate relationship with LO1 because she wouldnāt stop bringing him up. Also, she was planning to attend an event where she would meet him (she already knew him from her younger years, but only vaguely remembered him). He would have known she is my daughter and I didnāt want her around him when Iām not there so I told her. I didnāt tell her everything. I kept it minimal. But now she understands why her parents get uncomfortable when LO1 comes up. Itās not something Iām proud of.
Best wishes!
Miss Lovisa
To better understand my arachnid fears, there has been a wolf spider that has been hanging out right at the bottom of our front screen door since Friday evening when he first spooked me. Despite us and cats going in and out the door he hasnāt moved much. So I named him Bob the Spider. Because much like Bob in āWhat About Bob?ā he wonāt go away. š