2022 is nearly done. It’s been quite a year.
In the UK we’ve been through three Prime Ministers and two Monarchs. It’s fair to say there’s been a lot of change.
The last few posts have been about the value of using momentous events as an stimulus to review your own life; to psychologically turn the page and look to the future. Obviously, New Year presents a similar opportunity.
In the last “Coffeehouse” post (for those new to the site, these posts are meant as open discussion threads), TP shared her story, which I think captures one of the most important principles about recovery from limerence and transitioning to a more purposeful life: you have to have something to look forward to.
TP’s marriage is on the rocks – zero romantic reciprocation from her husband and frustration with co-parenting their child. Marriage counselling is going nowhere. It’s hardly surprising that when a new limerent object appeared, they proved so addictive.
As TP quite reasonably points out, hobbies like pottery or hiking aren’t going to compensate for those problems. Despite working hard on managing the limerence, TP is struggling with recovery. To be honest, this isn’t too surprising – fundamentally, the problem is what does recovery offer? What will life look like if she succeeds? Yes, she removes the complication of an unreliable LO, but what’s left? An intractable, debilitating problem.
Trying to get over the promise of an LO, when you have no purposeful vision for how much better your life could be, is a tall order. Frankly, if TP’s LO had been available, reciprocating, and emotionally stable, she could well have dissolved her marriage and embarked on a new relationship. Instead, she’s now entangled with two emotionally unavailable men.
There’s no escaping how difficult this scenario is. It’s not going to be solved easily, and I can’t offer a solution in a New Year’s blog post. But there is some value in facing the question unflinchingly, even if you can’t answer it immediately.
Confronting difficult problems
Some problems go away if you ignore them. These can be the sort of issues that we can get overanxious about, but just by delaying a decision, the situation kind of resolves itself. Say: not replying to an urgent email from a co-worker, failing to complete a report on schedule, or missing a social engagement. Usually, those sorts of problems pass without any lasting consequences.
Big problems get worse.
Big problems need to be confronted because leaving them unresolved has consequences. Fundamentally, if you put off a difficult decision, difficult conversation, or difficult confrontation, it will fester. You’re going to have to face it at some point; delaying just means you will be doing so when you are a bit older, and even more demoralised and unhappy.
If the status quo is intolerable, you’ll have to act eventually.
Er, Happy New Year?
OK, so that’s the bracing lecture out of the way. Let’s be a bit more upbeat. How do you start? How do you build up the courage to confront a difficult problem (or difficult person)?
There is a good starting point, and it doesn’t in fact call for immediate courage, or even immediate action – and it is a good way to begin the process of becoming more purposeful. Furthermore, New Year is the perfect time for focussing on this principle.
Fundamentally, the project is developing a vision for your future. Limerents are excellent daydreamers, but this is an exercise that is focussed on yourself, not on anyone else (and especially not on fantasy rescue by LO). Instead, it’s an exercise in deciding who you want to be, and what kind of life you want to live.
For the time being, put aside the critical voice that warns you of all the downsides and risks. Just enjoy the freedom of developing a vision for the future in which you would be happy. You might start with some idle fantasies – no harm in that – but once you’ve taken that long vacation and bought whatever trinkets might appeal, what’s next?
What do you want from a romantic partner? What do you want to give back to them? What work do you find fulfilling? How is your relationship with your family? If the status quo feels like a trap, what would freedom mean?
Think beyond the immediate situation you are in, and beyond the short-term consequences of a shocking change – imagine life once the dust has settled on any disruption and you are now living in a new status quo. How would you feel?
A vision of a better future can give you the courage to confront difficult problems, and a sense of optimism that there is light beyond the present trials.
So, for those who are suffering this New Year, rather than making traditional resolutions, you could instead dream about what a better life could be like.
Then spend the year working towards it. With purpose.
Song of the Blog: “The Future’s So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades” – Timbuk 3 (1986)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVjTTcEuhtM
I asked LO #2 to marry me on Xmas morning 1985. She declined and moved across the country in the spring of 1986. But, she didn’t want to break up. So, most of 1986 and all of 1987 pretty much sucked.
Although I did study nuclear science, the future didn’t seem all that bright until I kicked LO #2 to the curb in early 1988 and met my wife.
Life got a whole lot better. I got what I wanted from life. I just didn’t get it from who I expected to get it from.
The forum is still accessible and comments can be posted.
I have to admit to being a bit slow off the mark today, after a late night to see in the New Year 🙂
The forum is deactivated now. Can you login anymore, Marcia?
“I have to admit to being a bit slow off the mark today, after a late night to see in the New Year”
Hope you had fun. 🙂
No, I can’t log in anymore.
It was fun, thanks 🙂 But I got a cold a couple of days later, which might be karma or might just be bad luck…
Dr L,
I misunderstood what features would change with the new year. Are we keeping the ability to comment?
Hi Lovisa,
Yes comments on posts are still live. Every now and again I write a post that has a general theme, which is an attempt to introduce the idea of limerence to a people who might be googling about “how to get over a crush” or similar. For those I sometimes turn off comments, as they are meant as entry points for new comers.
Comments are especially welcome on Coffeehouse posts.
The private forum that was hosted here at LwL has now been shut down, but some of the stalwarts from the forum have set up new (independent, but similar ethos) forums elsewhere. I’ll post links in the next post scheduled for this Saturday.
Great, thank you.
I ended 22 with my LO running hot with me before Christmas break and me falling right back into LE fantasyland. During the break she has now gone cold.
This post is timely to remind me that my way out of LE is a renewed sense of purpose and to stay diligent on the workplace LC strategy I put in place. One of the best things I read on here was a comment Dr L made in a blog. To paraphrase:
“My LO is a source of stress, not of reward.”
Nothing has been more true with my LO and I remind myself this daily. Here is to a purposeful 23.
It really does make sense from an addiction perspective! It makes me think about Allen Carr’s “easy way to stop smoking” when he says (I hope I’m not betraying the material) that the addiction to nicotine stresses you with the withdrawal, then taking a hit relieves you from that stress when you satisfy the craving. So cigarettes fill a hole they dug themselves. And it gets all warped up in the brain as “cigarettes relax me”, when actually cigarettes are the source of stress, not of reward.
I’m still addicted to nicotine though (and craving LO), but at least I know I’m not helping myself by giving in…
P.-S.: This is my first comment, I’m not sure I’m allowed to barge in here like that, I’m sorry if this is inappropriate.
I’m glad you are here, Marikat. Your comment was applicable and helpful. Welcome to the club!
Thank you so much Lovisa! You’ve emboldened me now (maybe too much even haha)
Welcome, Marikat. I’m relatively new here, too (certainly new to posting) and hope you find as much wisdom and kindness as I have here. All the best to you.
Thank you TP. I’ve found on this blog the best of the human spirit I could have expected, especially relating to this difficult experience of limerence. I’m sure that lead by DrL’s attitude we are called to be our wisest and kindest selves.
I’ve made another comment, with a (admittedly contrived) metaphor, read it if you’d like, there is a part for you. I wish you the best too, take care.
Hi Marikat, and welcome!
I wonder sometimes if our ability to be able to make emotional connections online (such as here on LwL) is a manifestation of the same ability that lies behind being in “the tribe”. I hope you find lots of support here. Nothing like compassionate people who have also walked the walk.
I’m cheering for you, Speedy! You have a good plan.
Thank-you. I’m glad you are on my side!
“If the status quo is intolerable, you’ll have to act eventually.”
Hanging out here on LwL, I’ve noticed how often a bad marriage comes up. Assuming it isn’t rewriting history that Dr L warns us about, when there is a truly bad marriage – of course people will look elsewhere for love and connection. It is only human. And in some ways, limerence is the ultimate condensed, super-potent version of that (or at least feels that way). It is driven by an almost irresistible desire to connect with another person.
We’ve so many of us tried to tackle the limerence head on, but without rocking the boat that contains the rest of our lives (the boat that often contains SO and children and our community). But it doesn’t deal with the root cause. Which goes back to Dr L’s purpose.
I think a really through exploration of purpose might lead to an unexpected result though – you might find that “If the status quo is intolerable, you’ll have to act eventually.” And the result might be rocking the boat anyway. But at least for a better, more worthwhile and honorable reason than the unpredictable, irrational beast that is limerence.
DrL I can’t thank you enough for your kindness and thoughtfulness in dedicating a post to my story. I am very touched and grateful for your wisdom. Interestingly, my therapist, too, is encouraging me to imagine “what if” scenarios to what my ideal future life might look like. I am struggling a bit to get past the immediate repercussions of leaving my marriage might be (financial, legal, parental, social changes and implications are super daunting). And although, hand on heart, I never fantasised about a LTR with LO (it is obvious to me that we would not be a long-term match at all – I had most hoped for us to be able to carry on a PA without it impacting our real lives), I would also have to think about dating again. Would anyone want me? Until my LE hit me like a force-field (about 3 years into my acquaintance with LO, and without ever before “noticing” him), I never even looked at another man in almost 10 years of marriage even though I was never limerent for SO. I guess the lack of connection just “snapped” in me one day. And I worry about ever feeling desire like I did with LO or finding a true connection again. All of that stuff.
Limmy, yet again, you’ve nailed it with your comment: the boat may need to be rocked anyway so the question is how and for what reason. Thank you as ever for your thoughts.
And Speedy, love that thought and will use your plan to inspire my own. Like you, I still haven’t had a reply (send on Dec 17) to my request for getting together with LO so I’m back in “cold”, too. But I am glad for it in a way, and have not felt tempted to contact him again, even with all of those socially sanctioned excuses to over the Christmas/NY season. All the best for your 2023, too.
I’ve been thinking about my response to @Speedwagon, thank you @Lovisa and @TP for your warm welcome by the way!
Thinking about limerence is LO-adjacent, so the only not-too-unhealthy option right now (I could be wrong). I went deeper (ha) with the “digging a hole” idea, I wanted to see how purposeful living related to it, here it is (it’s a bit long sorry):
I was thinking about someone’s life in the psyche like a patch of land, where one can build and grow things.
Maybe you have flowers (whichever you want), trees, a vegetable garden, pens with animals, or a pond with frogs, a house, whatever. Maybe it’s vacant because you haven’t found something you want to put time and energy into creating, or maybe you’ve built things but you’re not really satisfied with them.
Getting the glimmer is like grabbing the golden shovel. Giving in to limerence is starting to dig, to put up this LO statue that would be soooo pretty in your garden (they are majestic, right?)
Purposeful living would then be using the land for something you really care about (which is different for everyone), so that when you grab that golden shovel you are less likely to be willing to dig up some part of your land for the (sometimes gaudy) golden piece.
Living without purpose would be not using your land, or having these raised beds full of broccoli, and you know (or suddenly realize) that deeply you hate broccoli, so it would be quite a challenge to resist. Trouble in your marriage means the plants have been dying for some time, and looking at these faded flowers doesn’t fill you with joy. Though limerence tends to make you think that the LO statue would attract more butterflies than your luscious flowering lilacs anyway.
Maybe some people have harder soils than others, or do not have golden shovels (and are less/not likely to experience limerence), or some people have bigger statues (meaning if they get limerent they’re going to sacrifice a huge part of the garden, taking important and healthy parts away as well as the available ones).
What I think is interesting, is that limerence can lead you to really think about your psyche-land. Of course it’s not a good idea to erect a giant statue of someone. But maybe you should replace this broccoli with peas, or water those flowers, or start investing your time and energy in that fallow land. Maybe start building a giant swimming pool, if that’s what you’ve always wanted but never set out to do (because too much work needed, or you would have to uproot that apple tree you’re attached to…). Maybe not, but it would be useful to think about it and make an assertive decision.
@TP if I may, maybe those flowers can’t grow on that land, even if you tend to them perfectly. It doesn’t seem, from what I’ve gathered, that the garden needs watering or weeding. Maybe it’s just not the right climate. I’m not a gardener so I’m sorry if none of this makes sense, but I think that’s how it works? Sometimes you have to let die what needs to die, to be able to plant something else that may flourish, and maybe you’ll have to try a few things, maybe you won’t find the right flowers soon or ever, or maybe you have the right seeds in your hand right now, but in any case is it not better to have that fertile soil ready, than to watch the agonizing flowers forever? Of course it wouldn’t be wise to go scorched earth and destroy other parts of your garden, but you deserve a garden you’re happy with, or at least hopeful.
I’ve been reading “Women Who Run With The Wolves” (as well as other books from the purposeful living reading list…) and this comment is clearly inspired by it. If you haven’t read it, and are willing to, I think it could be of use to you! It’s a really interesting read in my opinion.
I had a decent end to 2022 with a 12 day stint of NC due to the holidays. Had a pretty bad relapse today after an hour or so talking to my LO. She showed a mutual friend of ours pictures and told stories to us about her times on break. My irrational brain took me down into the dumps because she didn’t do any of those things in the 30 minutes prior that we talked before he got there.
Even though I know that the most I can be is her friend for a short time longer it actually bothers the hell out of me still that I might not be her “favorite” friend at work. It seems absolutely insane that I can feel this dejected and down over something so silly. I am almost certain she thinks of me as a friend and even asked if she could use me as a reference for jobs in her new town after she gets married. It is like it is never enough though.
I feel like I lost a lot of the progress I’ve made lately.
Oh Rufio, that would set anyone back. Your response makes sense. Hang in there, Buddy.
Thank you for the kind reply!!
I’m not sure if it helps or not, but the other perspective you could have is that with you she doesn’t need to find such a superficial subject to talk about. I don’t know what you talked about before the mutual friend arrived, but it seems to me like holiday pictures and stories are quite small talk, it’s an easy topic of conversation with acquaintances. It doesn’t necessarily mean you’re not her “favorite” friend at work though you know the situation better. I can understand why you’re feeling low. You had a great 12 NC streak, you can be proud of yourself, seeing her again was bound to be unnerving. I trust that it’s a bump in the road rufio, hang in there, you’re doing well.
Yeah, we actually talk a lot about other things like what we wish we could do or want to learn. I know logically she thinks highly of me as a friend because she welcomes our talks and has told me multiple times she enjoys them. It is the little things the drive me nuts.
I am trying not to connect with my emotions on day 2. We just had a group chat and as others left and it was just me and her she made one of our little office quips we all like to laugh at. She was going to leave but paused as if she was willing to stay and chat longer but I just replied jokingly and walked out first. That was hard to do, haha.
Trying to avoid her now and get out of the day.
You walked out first? Damn, do you have any more of that self-control? I really need it, please… Seriously though, very impressive! It shows real commitment to yourself, you deserve to praise yourself.
Maybe not connecting with your emotions at work is the way to go? As long as you have somewhere else you can express them to not get overwhelmed (here for example)? We’re behind you with support!
Yeah, I would not read into that much at all. But I have to say, I am jealous your LO is leaving. I think you will find that your recovery from her moves really quick after she leaves. My LO is my employee and I actually daydream about her coming to me and telling me she is moving away. It’s actually a decent possibility in her life situation and one I would welcome.
Hang in there. Freedom may be close at hand.
Quite silly but I am both going to be relieved and quite sad. I hope something changes for you friend!
I had a tough day also after seeing my LO for the 1st time since Christmas break. Early, right after Christmas I texted her to say Hi and it didn’t go well. Short responses, long periods to respond. She did text me NY day to say Hi and Happy New Year but ended up not responding back after just a couple texts when I tried to engage in conversation. It as if she decided to set up barriers now not to engage me conversationally through texting.
Today seeing her, she was her normal self towards me. I acted a bit colder and didn’t engage her in any personal talk about her break. All our interactions were about work matters. I did catch her looking at me a couple times. It was the normal office vibe of attraction I have with her.
But last night I just felt really down. Limerence was in overdrive. Wanted to text her so bad to talk. My mind was making up excuses to do so, but I kept telling myself it was the limerence talking My sole focus right now is not to text. I need to get in a routine with her where texting is not part of our paradigm as it seems to really be a addictive trigger for me leading into more depressive moods. I would much rather have numb but consistent stable moods over the highs and lows.
I am not sure whether she will text me at some point. The rational part of me hopes she does not, but the limerent part checks my phone for a text every hour.
“I am not sure whether she will text me at some point. The rational part of me hopes she does not, but the limerent part checks my phone for a text every hour.”
This one calls for some plain old brute force.
You make a deal that says you’ll check your phone hourly for a week. Then you make another deal that says you check your phone daily for a week. Since you probably get a lot of texts, that may be the best you can do.
Anything’s better than nothing. Casinos make millions off very small margins.
My heart goes out to you, Speedwagon. I have been following your story. I do hope you can stay strong as it will be worth it. I came back to the website today, with my tail between my legs, as I feel that I have had a comparable experience. My LO sent a brief affectionate (kind of solicited by me) message on Christmas Eve. I have sent two back, including an equally affectionate message on New Year’s Eve. Not read and no reply and it’s “killing” me. I could have stopped this weeks ago because he is a former neighbour (and close friend) who moved away a year ago. I need to start NC once more.
Hi Speedwagon, I expected things to be back to normal with your LO in January. Sorry to hear that it was so rough. I like Limerent Emeritus’ idea about limiting the number of times you check your phone. Unfortunately, you do need to prepare yourself for the inevitable text from LO. How will you respond? Will you be timely with your response? Will you let the Limerent Beast feed off her texts? It’s probably a good idea to have a strategy in advance. But, who am I kidding, if you are anything like me, you have a solid game plan that goes out the window as soon as you have contact with LO.
“My sole focus right now is not to text. I need to get in a routine with her where texting is not part of our paradigm as it seems to really be a addictive trigger for me leading into more depressive moods.”
Fabulous awareness, Speedy! Go with that plan. No initiating texts. You can do it, be strong.
Let’s address the depressive moods. I don’t get those with my current LO (LO3) because I feel so secure in our friendship. I know that if I reach out to him, he will respond. And I know that sometimes he initiates contact. It’s so nice. On the other hand, my LO2 saw me as a threat to his marriage so he was extremely unpredictable in communication. He wanted to connect with me, but, in his friend’s words, he saw me as “the only woman who could tempt him to stray from his marriage.” For the record, I wasn’t looking to threaten any marriages, I just wanted friendship. But because he saw me as a threat, he was hot and cold with communication. It was awful! I had the highs and lows. I think the lows were caused by my insecure connection to LO2. My mood was dependent on the contact that I had with LO2. I think he was my primary source of dopamine at that time.
Let’s see if we can get you some dopamine hits that have nothing to do with your LO. Here is what I currently use…
Runner’s high
Cryotherapy
Playing outside in the cold (I built a snowman over the break)
Playing with my friends and my family members who I like
Friends and play are free therapy. What do you like to do for fun?
Oh, and let’s count your blessings! Gratitude is a great mood-regulator! You have people to talk to about your limerent experience! That is huge! We understand and we don’t judge. I read your story and I’m like, “Yep, I get it. Poor guy is stuck in the intrusive thoughts phase. I hated that phase. How can we get him past that phase?” This community is awesome!
Thank you for the concern. It’s nice to know people out there in the ether care and understand.
I have been exercising a lot lately, I play guitar in a band, I have a lot of activities to keep me busy. My depressive states are not so much actual depression as much as they are just low moods and lamenting the fact that I’m a limerent nut job.
It’s very tough though, my LO seems to have cast a spell over me and I am still very much in the intrusive thoughts phase of this. But I know better days are out there.
Speedwagon, that is good news! You have creative outlets and you already exercise. Cool that you play the guitar in a band. Hmmm, very cool!
Yes I do care. I think a lot of people on this site genuinely care about us fellow limerent nut jobs.
I want to ask you about something. Please don’t be mad.
I talked to my previous LO and his friend today. I will call him LO2 because I’m on my third since marrying my fabulous hubby. I told LO2 and his friend that I know someone who has a crush on an employee and he wishes the employee would quit her job because he feels happy when she’s around and depressed when she isn’t around. I told them that this other person doesn’t like the highs and lows. LO2’s friend personal-messaged me that LO2 feels that way about me and that is why he avoids me sometimes. I suspected it, but I tested them directly today. (I hope that doesn’t hurt your feelings that I used your story like that. It was all anonymous.). Here is my question for you. How do I make this less hard on LO2? I really want to keep his friendship but I don’t want to make him miserable. What can I do?
Please don’t be mad.
Dude, the better days are most certainly out there. We are going to be ok. I’m with you on the intrusive thoughts. The mind can be a cruel master.
I’m not married so having an LO a decade + younger than me is like a constant reminder that I missed out on my 20’s and early 30’s. It beats me down with a lonely feeling that can be hard to overcome. I work out a lot but I need to take a cue from you and pick up some new hobbies.
Also, I know you are aware my LO is leaving in a couple months and while I’m sure it will be a relief in the end, right now it is just a bummer. She is such a kind person and doesn’t knowingly toy with me. It is MY problem. I just want to go back to the 6 months we had before the glimmer and laugh and joke with my friend again.
Ok, TED Talk is over.
@Lovisa
Not mad at all, my story is out there so use it how you see fit. Not like I’m going to run into any of you at the grocery store.
So let me see if I understand this right, you are your ex LOs current LO? Were you ever mutual LOs? I guess your question is tough because everyone has different triggers. You mention staying friends, but it doesn’t sound like you are much of friends if it is hard for him to be around you and how much of a true friend can he be if he is limerent.
I personally do a lot better when there is predictable routine to the interactions with my LO. Texting for me has become a trigger because it’s very unpredictable. On the flip side, my in person in the office interactions have become routine and are easy to handle. My advice would be, be predictable to him. You will have to determine what that means for your specific relationship with him. Also, flirt just a tiny bit. Maybe flirt is not right word, be warm. I hate it when my interactions with my LO are all matter of fact, I like a little warmth.
Last, I really wish me and my LO could talk the whole thing out. I know that means disclosure to an extent but I really want to just air it out sometimes and come up with a relationship plan so to speak. I can’t initiate that because I am her employer. I would welcome it if she initiated. But is it something that you could do with him? Would it help if he was able to talk to you about how he felt? Everything being unspoken and in secret but so much apparent (elephant in room) kills me sometimes.
That is very helpful, Speedwagon! Thank you. Yes, I can talk things out with him. We have been friends for 20+ years. What that looks like is we text or email each other periodically. And occasionally see each other for lunch or at events. Before the glimmer, it was very nice. Then it got weird. I would guess that from his perspective, I got weird. I don’t know, that is just a guess.
I can do what you suggested. I can be predictable and warm.
I understand the elephant in the room dilemma. But I still feel that it is best not to disclose attraction. Since it has already been disclosed with LO2, I feel like I can talk to him about it. I can’t emphasize enough that disclosing attraction changes the relationship in unpredictable ways.
Greetings from a French limerant! I wish everyone a happy new year, filled with purpose and recovery. This is my first post on this website which I discovered a few weeks ago. I had already heard about the term limerence before and thought it very interesting but couldn’t relate then. I can now…What started as a regular crush for someone I work with degenerated into a stressful bittersweet limerant experience. The difficult part is that I can’t enforce the no contact rule as we’re colleagues, so each time I feel I’m on my way to get over this infatuation, a new interaction brings it all back. LO knows I like him, is a big flirt and definetely has narcissistic tendencies. I wish I could just enjoy the seduction/flirting part that is thrilling and fun but not overanalyze every single thing in a obsessive manner. I don’t even want sex or a relationship, I think I want emotional intimacy which I can definetely can’t get from him…I noticed that I seem to be attracted to emotionally unavailable people. Can anyone relate? It’s so frustrating having to give so much thinking time to this non-relationship that is useless to my life. Being aware of it all and not being able to control or stop myself is such a torment! I stumbled upon an old french love song not long ago, it came out when i was a child and couldn’t comprehend the lyrics, relistening to it as an adult experiencing limerence got me thinking it’s the ultimate limerent song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRFUiuXK5Hk&ab_channel=HeleneSegaraVEVO
I translated the lyrics for anyone who cares to listen:
I watch you talk with people
You seem so faint to me, even transparent
I watch the days, life go by thinking
I’m not looking for love, I’m looking forward to it
I watch you having fun and I pretend
I can’t stop you from being a kid (childish)
You gesture wildly, you look so happy
You see, sometimes I hate the way I feel
Too many people loves you
And you don’t see me
I won’t come out of this love unscathed
Too many people loves you
Gravitating around you
All the words of love I sow, you don’t heat them
I feel so distant from you sometimes
I wouldn’t want you to think I’m waiting for you
I force myself to hope but I’m lying to myself
So I watch you drifting away slowly
Too many people loves you
And you don’t see me
I won’t come out of this love unscathed
Too many people loves you
Gravitating around you
And me, of course, I love you at my own expense
Too many people loves you
And you don’t see me
I won’t come out of this love unscathed
Too many people loves you
And you don’t even notice
That it’s because of you I’m fighting this strange battle
Too many people loves you
And you don’t even notice
That it’s because of you I’m fighting this strange battle
have a great day everyone!
Bon jour!
Great song!
“I think I want emotional intimacy which I can definetely can’t get from him…I noticed that I seem to be attracted to emotionally unavailable people. Can anyone relate?”
C’est une question qui touche bon nombre d’entre nous.
Commencer à travailler ici: https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-psychology-of-wanting-unavailable-people/
Merci for the Internet. I can barely remember any of the French I took. Apologies if I butchered it.
Hey fellow new French limerent on the blog!
I have a note about the translation, I would have translated “je m’y attends” as “I’m expecting it” rather than “I’m looking forward to it”. It sounds a bit more ominous/less hopeful to me, which is what I get from Hélène’s lyrics. My title would be “There are too many people who love you”, I like that it looks like a definite fact, “trop de gens t’aiment” could be interpreted as a criticism. (Also you have a typo, it’s “hear” not “heat”, not really important).
The song came out when I was a kid too, I think we’re about the same age. I remember she was looked down upon at the time (at least around me, too “emotional”, women am I right?…), I also re-discovered her music as an adult and honestly she has a great voice. In my opinion “Elle, tu l’aimes” is such a powerful heartbreak song. I definitely enjoy her music more now that I’m an adult and can relate.
I’m attracted to unavailable people too, I think they feel safe to me in a way, they won’t ask me to be perfect (or anything honestly, they’re just not interested in “me”). But I’m also looking for emotional intimacy, connecting with people is the only thing convincing me I’m not living in a simulation. It’s the only thing giving a meaning to life sadly. So it’s hard.
Taking only the highs of limerence would be so great. It’s a shame that it’s a package deal. Have a good evening, hang in there!
@SL
How lovely, thank you for the translation of the song! Bienvenue to LwL.
@rufio
“It is like it is never enough though.”
I think this is the problem with any interaction with an LO. When I compare interactions that I have with LO with those I have with normal friends, I realize what I find perfectly satisfying from normal friends feels just not enough from LO. We want MORE from them.
I’ve been going LC/NC over the break too, and yes that first seeing LO after weeks of break is difficult. I felt down for 3 days afterwards. I even started dreaming of LO, which only happens when I really try to suppress my feelings about the LE.
C’est la vie as a limerent!
Oh, my goodness, so true!
Yeah it is quite brutal. I actually alternate between feeling depressed and feeling dumb for simply not getting passed this. I haven’t had a feeling like this since I was in my 20’s. I wish I could pin point what void this addiction is trying to fill. I have the opposite of an addictive personality. I have never had a problem with anything else. Frustrating to feel so empty over what is a simple friendship at this point.
@Rufio
Do you have a texting relationship outside of work with your LO? Do you wonder if once she leaves you might start talking more frequently over text or even on the phone or do you think that would be it?
I have found texting to be maddening and highly addictive. My in office relationship with my LO has become fairly routine, nice but routine. I can handle it well. It’s the texting after work hours that now causes me so much stress. There seems to be a very hot/cold nature to it from my LO and is very unpredictable that the reward/dopamine hit is off the charts. I would try to not go there if you don’t have to. I am trying to ween off it right now.
Speed,
No we don’t do a lot of texting, thank goodness. That sounds really bad.
I will say the conversation of “I was going to text you but didn’t want to bother you” only to be answered by “you never bother me” has happened a few times in both directions.
Perhaps there is a sense from both of us that wouldn’t be ideal.
I would be in so much more trouble. Over break I did a favor she asked of me. She texted me on her day off freaking out because she forgot to remind me but I had already done it that morning. I told her so and said I would never let her down I just didn’t want to bother her. She hearted the message and sent me a super nice thank you with our little inside joke. We exchanged a couple more texts including the blushing emoji.
I kid you not I got dizzy. This wore off and my Christmas Eve was quite horrible as the emptiness set in. So, no, I will stay away from texts. Please stay strong brother and don’t text! If you feel the need just message us here!!!
I’ve been really naughty. I cast a “lure” for LO, not to him directly but to a group we are part of, to see if he would respond.
He saw it. He didn’t. And then, he did.
I just about exploded … not with happiness exactly, more like … I felt suddenly alive.
This is such a mess.
It is dangerous. I even catch myself typing things like, “simple friendship” as in my last post. This is completely false. It is not a simple at all. I create situations and conversations purposely that steer toward emotional content because I feel so comfortable talking to her. It feels so good. So I completely understand your “lure”.
Ah, rufio, I feel so foolish. Thank you for your understanding. Brothers-and-sisters in arms, eh.
He asked me out to a new lunch place. I said yes. Then I bailed. Then I said tomorrow. Then he said maybe. And I am now wondering how to bail tomorrow. Because I should. Am I the flaky one? Reminds me a bit of a picture of two Balinese dancers Dr L captioned once, something about bystanders watching in horror (anyone else agrees Dr L does the best captions ever?)
“It feels so good” – yes, IF I go to that lunch, I know the conversation will be good, meaningful, interesting. Followed by it feels so bad because after that we part ways. And, as you say, it is never enough. Boo.
Sigh, I noticed that a whole bunch of us are going through a hard patch after some holiday LC/NC. Withdrawal you think?
Yes! We are suffering from withdrawal symptoms and having relapses (or at least my luring was a relapse). The article is great and the comments quite good as we see others coping with what we are going through now. Bon courage!
https://livingwithlimerence.com/withdrawal-pains/
Writing that all out yesterday made me realize just how ridiculous I was being. I am going to put that relapse behind me, and am reinstating LC again. Let’s hope I last awhile …
By the way, I totally agree that texts are the worst.
Going through this too.
2 weeks of NC and it feels like hell.
For me it may be easier than avoiding somebody I work with. It “only” means not viewing LOs stories on IG and not posting stories myself… so that I don’t get frustrated when I view them and my LO doesn’t view mine.
I went some days/weeks without viewing the LO stories before, but I kept posting myself, and approx. 10 days into my silence the LO would show up again and view my stories a couple of days. And it meant me starting from scratch.
After reading the withdrawal pains article, I am thinking that maybe she did realise I was developing a crush and she enjoyed the extra attention. I keep thinking she may be a narcissist…
Well, no chance for her to show up in my IG stories again, so lower risk for me to relapse. (She never liked my posts so no risk there)
As a side effect, I am spending less time on IG and more time doing other things.
But still far from being over my LO…
lot’s of strength to you!! 💪
I am trying to get myself busy and work on the purpose and start new things to keep myself from thinking about my LO but it is very hard.
I went NC on Xmas, meaning no viewing LO’s stories on IG anymore and almost no stories from my side to avoid checking non-stop if my LO viewed it… but it is killing me.
I am still thinking and thinking about what went south, it’s like I *need to* know why my LO suddenly didn’t talk to me, ignored me, looked another way. In my head it doesn’t make sense as the days before seemed just fine,and it is all I’d like to know. Driving me crazy.
To make it worse, my SO mentioned today maybe we should go to the spa hotel next month and that we could book training sessions with my LO… what should I say?
Besides that I don’t know what to do, I started thinking about the worst scenarios possible, that my LO will treat me like shit there, won’t talk to me, ignore me again or be rude etc.
But also that it may be the chance to ask what is wrong…and that maybe once I know LOs perspective I could finally move on…
Somehow have the feeling it will just make things worse on all levels … or is it just fear?
What would you do?
Thanks!
What would I do? I’m currently right in the middle of a LE withdrawal nightmare.
I would make an excuse, any excuse, not to encounter your LO in the way you have suggested.
I have not yet extracted myself from the nightmare but, sure as hell, I would try so hard to resist such a meeting.
Vikke, oh my, that is quite a situation! What would I do? I’m dumb enough to jump in that deep water. I would tell myself that I don’t let fear hold me back and I would book the event. I would be so curious to see how things played out. But I don’t think I’m the best person to ask. I really think you’re better off listening to some of the more cautious limerents. And better yet, listen to your instincts. You are the best person to make this decision. I disagree about your worst-case-scenario thoughts. To me, the worst case scenario is a receptive LO that you don’t resist and it turns into a PA or EA. But that’s just me.
What you are experiencing right now is uncertainty. It is a beast! It is the worst part of the limerent experience. It causes intrusive thoughts. What you are going through is normal and unpleasant. I like Limerent Emeritus’ advice.
Good luck!
Hi thank you.
In my world/thoughts the scenario that my LO is receptive is non-existing. I ruled that out already, I see it as impossible. And I am also not trying to change that.
I just want to know why my LO was normal, nice, talkative, open one day and the total opposite the next day and further.
But yes, that would probably make things worse or as bad I suppose…
It is probably as simple as they had a bad day. It is so hard to remember that our LO’s usually don’t see interactions with us even remotely like we see it from our side. I suffer the same thoughts though.
That makes sense, Vikke.
Rufio, I like how sensitive you are to the feelings of LO. I think you are right that we should give them the benefit of doubt and not jump to conclusions that one or two interactions have changed the relationship. Maybe they are having a bad day. So true!
I wanted to provide and update and explain how I survived the spa visit (yes, we did go in the end).
I had no contact (=no viewing or posting stories or likes or DM on IG) for almost 2 months. It was ok and felt better with time.
I was however nervous to see my LO, I was afraid she would not say hi or be rude, not nice…But I also felt that I was annoyed / angry.
First touch point was a personal training session, it was ok but I noticed my LO didn’t look at me or talk to me, but not in a rude way, more in an embarrassed/shy way. She even asked my partner what I had explained about the fair, I was like hello, ask me directly? Guess she didn’t want to see my annoyed disapproved look.
We did some jokes and talking but felt strange.
I had some treatments, in the first one she tried to talk to me (like we did before) and mentioned the 2nd fair (where she had totally ignored me), and asked how it was for me, I said a few words, she changed subject but I didn’t really feel like talking, so I didn’t ask anything, guess she noticed that and didn’t say a word again.
At the end, she mentioned that she looked forward to the upcoming treatments and that she would fix my back and all.
Due to a mistake in the reservation, it turned out we ended up with another therapist for one session, my LO found out and asked me if I had booked it like that on purpose, she seemed to be alarmed and disappointed but relieved when I said it was surely not meant like that (?).
She was extra nice and caring about my wellbeing, I guess she did realise something was off and was a bit sorry about what had happened. At least that is my take. On day 2 I decided not to hold a grudge anymore and move on.
During one of the personal trainings (this time just the 2 of us) she talked quite a lot and asked things, mentioned she thought I was fitter than in Sept, asked about my training plan etc and shared some personal things, I really tried to keep it casual and normal, but I think I was still feeling hurt and was more quiet than usual, quite my usual reaction when somebody hurts me, it takes a while to trust again… but I also noticed that while I still like her as a person, the magic kinda vanished.
I still think of her, but surely not in the intensity some months ago and it’s not driving me crazy. I accept she is so much NOT into me at all and I am just the patient and that’s it. And I am not freaking out at least. Been meditating A LOT and it helps.
So all in all, I think I can say I am on the way to “recovery”. Not out of it yet but getting there 🙂 I think.
That is great news, Vikke! The magic isn’t what it used to be. I am happy for you. Also, thanks for the meditation tip.
Vikke,
“But also that it may be the chance to ask what is wrong…and that maybe once I know LOs perspective I could finally move on…”
https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/
One of my EAP Counselor’s favorite questions was:
“What would you do with the knowledge if you had it?”
And, your answer is…?
thank you for this. Good question, what do I want really? or what would I do with the information?
Currently I want to know what went south and why my LO stopped talking to me / avoided me all of a sudden.
What did I do? Was it me at all? or something at LO’s end I have no control over?
If it was me, I guess a lot of further thinking, blaming and eventually learning, improve and closure.
If it wasn’t my fault, I guess closure and knowing that there isn’t anything totally wrong with me :O
….
I can’t seem to move on and accept the uncertainty as it is at the moment. Maybe because I never experienced something like this in my adulthood…
Since I rule out that my LO is absolutely not interested, I don’t see a danger that it remains uncertain, or mixed signals or alike in this respect.
It could happen that it was something I did/said and my LO gets totally pissed off to see me again, and doesn’t want to explain anything, then it remains a mystery.
It could happen that my LO acts normal and I have no chance to ask about what happened.
Otherwise I need to find a very good reason for NOT going to the spa:O
“If it was me, I guess a lot of further thinking, blaming and eventually learning, improve and closure.
If it wasn’t my fault, I guess closure and knowing that there isn’t anything totally wrong with me :O”
https://livingwithlimerence.com/closure-is-an-illusion/
This post has may have the most comments of any post on LwL. It’s a “must read” at some point.
thank you.
I guess in my case it is a mix of reasons mentioned.
For what I see now is that in any case, meeting the LO again in abt a month when I will probably be 6 weeks into NC is not a good idea for my mental health, as it can trigger it all again…
I just don’t know how to avoid going to the spa yet.
Going there and not booking her for a session from my side doesn’t help, as my SO may book a session and then I will just be wondering what they talked about. Telling my SO to avoid her too will be weird (what would be the reason??)…
And still going there without booking a session still bears the risk that the LO is around and we come across each other, she avoids me again and it all starts again…
So I guess we have to switch spa hotels, which is a bummer because we really like it there, have been going for years… at least until (let’s hope) the LO moves on to another job… sigh.
I am annoyed that this all happened 😠 totally innecessary… (or not, if some growth and change to the better on my side comes out of it…)
Vikke,
Sometimes, there are no bad choices and sometimes there are no good ones.
In this situation, if you think you can keep it together at the spa, I’d say try to get through it. Trying to avoid it sounds like it might cause more problems than it solves.
In one respect, changing a venue you and your SO enjoy is letting the terrorist win. And, as you stated, you have no credible reason to propose it to your SO.
This place is called Living with Limerence. This is a time you might have to live with it and accept it might set you back some. It happens. It shouldn’t be fatal.
On the other hand, if you think being around your LO will compel you to do something you’ll regret, probably best to avoid it and accept those consequences.
There may not be an easy answer.
“A vision of a better future can give you the courage to confront difficult problems, and a sense of optimism that there is light beyond the present trials.” -Dr. L
This is so definitely true. But I have a technical question.
(Btw the holiday break NC was terribly hard. I made it through, though. For those of us keeping each other’s company in withdrawal, I happened to hear this song on an old CD on the last day of the break. Here’s to intrusive thoughts: Night and Day https://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/de-lovely/nightandday.htm )
A couple of days before the break ended, I needed to see a way out of the status quo so badly that I actually sat down to write a list of things I wanted in a better future (the vision), however unreachable it seemed at present. It was like, okay, this is how I’m going to spend the money if I won the jackpot. From there, I laid out all the scenarios I could think of as hypothetical plans – some of which true nightmares if seen from the value system I grew up with.
However, this pen-and-paper exercise surprised me with something I had not been able to produce in my mind for years. It showed me some paths, albeit unproven, to a future that I could happily look forward to. It put a smile on my face, and it’s not the kind of smile when I daydream about LO. It felt real. It felt mine. I felt confident.
This is huge, because, in the next two days, my conversations with SO miraculously returned to a tone with zero trace of underlying frustration. I truly felt I knew what I wanted and I could get there with my SO.
But, alas, it only lasted two days. Of course the third day was a workday, when I saw and talked to LO. All the “Night and Day” came back like a tsunami, as if the holiday break, the NC , the vision, the upturn with my SO, none of these ever happened. Just like Bruno in Encanto (sorry I watched it five thousand times with my child) tossed the new vision green glass over his shoulder and sighed, “Every time.”, I lost steam on trying out any of the hypothetical paths I was finally able to see. Doing nothing and staying with the status quo just seems the easiest.
How to hold on to my hard-to-find optimism, when limerence takes over my mind and takes away my focus on finding a better future?
@Emma
“However, this pen-and-paper exercise surprised me with something I had not been able to produce in my mind for years. It showed me some paths, albeit unproven, to a future that I could happily look forward to. It put a smile on my face, and it’s not the kind of smile when I daydream about LO. It felt real. It felt mine. I felt confident.”
You touched it. It’s there. I think it is a remarkably promising first step. It just takes time to replace one habit (limerence) with another (purpose). Keep going back to it!
Thank you, Limmy, for the encouragement.
“Lessons for Limerents”
https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-01-02
https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-01-03
https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-01-04
https://dilbert.com/strip/2023-01-05
And, one blast from the past: https://dilbert.com/strip/1993-08-08
I wonder if Scott Adams is on LwL?
I love Dilbert!
Boys, the woman in that last cartoon has no idea that she triggered the strange behavior. She is thinking, “He’s a little odd. Kind of reminds me of that other man at my last job. I hope he is okay.” She will never know unless someone tells her. It took years for my coworkers to clue me in.
Let me tell you a story. One day my boss’s teenage son came into my office unannounced and sat in the chair across from my desk. He said nothing. I stopped what I was doing and waited for him to tell me what brought him into my office. Silence. I tried to make small talk, he gave one word answers. The experience was strange. Later, I asked his dad about it and learned that I intimidated his boys so he and his wife decided to use me as a lesson for their boys. They encouraged them to talk to me and call me. It was a game for my boss and his wife. It amused them and they saw me as an opportunity to teach their boys how to talk to women. A little warning would have been nice.
The lesson is… women do not know how they affect men. They usually aren’t doing it intentionally (though sometimes it’s very intentional and she does know). But usually she doesn’t know.
The way I was around LO sometimes I can’t believe that she couldn’t see something was amiss with my behavior. Besides LO there has only been one other woman (back in my early 20’s) that was intimidating. And I don’t think I was limerent for her, she was just a very attractive woman and I guess that intimidated me when I was younger.
Now that I think about it, LO reminds me in many ways of this other woman. Except then we were both available unlike with LO. This other woman intimidated me because I was young and inexperienced. And LO intimidates me because of limerence. But I find it strange now thinking on it that these two women are so similar and both had the same effect on me.
I am an hour and 20 minutes from avoiding her altogether for the day. It would be the first time in a long time when we are both at work. I’m noticing that I’m feeling quite sad she hasn’t come by to speak. Of course it may be for the best but my mind is definitely doing circles wondering if she cares or not.
I know logically that she may care as much as any normal coworker would but it doesn’t stop these dumb emotions from making me feel like a nothing.
I’ve tried the cold shoulder, NC tactic at work and found it just makes me feel worse. My mood does better when I have some sort of interaction with her each day in person. I personally wouldn’t try to white knuckle that and just have a casual friendly conversation, even if brief.
Yeah, I made it the whole day but it definitely kind of back fired there at the end. My limerent brain just sat there and hoped she would walk the 20 yards over to my side of the building to say hi. It was less like a victory and more like brooding in my corner. She’s just a co-worker living her own life. I need to go back to treating her like I do all my other friends as we were 6 months ago before this whole LE kicked off. That was the reason we got on so well. Thank you!
I have been reading your blog all morning today. Before today I had never heard of limerence or being limerent. But thanks to your blog I no have a bunch of insight and information to face the fact that it is the condition I am over a woman outside of my marriage. I am now able to take this information and the sincerest apology to my wife tonight.
Though I haven’t had contact with this woman in over six months (she is a former co-worker) I still have the intrusive thoughts that are plaguing me and my marriage still.
And also many thanks to the readers whose comments I have read and can eerily relate too. I understand their plight and am motivated to make the changes I need to hearing that many have gotten through it themselves personally. It motivates me now to get past this LO and to prevent future LE.
Thank you all for what might very well save my marriage.
Welcome to the club, Adam! I am glad you found us. It sounds like you are going through rough times. I hope this new insight is helpful for you and your wife.
Best wishes.
Thank you for the welcome Lovisa. There is a lot of great information I keep reading, including reader’s personal experiences. I keep reading and see more and more of my behavior and attitude that I was ignoring or rationalizing to myself. Our marriage hasn’t been as good in the past as it has the last two years. But trying to use LO as an escape from the problems in my marriage …. well got me right here where I am.
It’s been over a year that this has been going on. And it needs to end for me. So I am very glad I stumbled across this blog. Now I just have to find the courage to talk to my wife. I’m very bad and sharing my feelings and confrontation. But I am going to make the best effort I can to do so.
Thank you again
Adam, you seem very brave. I hope it all goes well with talking with your wife, and this ultimately makes your marriage stronger.
If it is any help, I make the distinction: that limerence is a “natural” phenomenon for some of us, that just happens, outside of our control (especially the first time and before knowing what limerence is), but commitment to marriages (and monogamy) while they may not be as “natural”, are the true measure because they are within our control. To be determined and steadfast in your committed relationships in the light of limerence is like holding onto a lighthouse in the midst of a tsunami: incredibly difficult, but if you succeed, it is a massive achievement.
I wish you luck!
You are welcome, Adam. It sounds like you haven’t talked to your wife yet. I’m curious why you feel like you should talk to her about your limerence. I choose not to discuss limerence with my husband, but there are other commenters who disclose to their SOs. Let me clarify, I talk to my husband about my male friends, but I don’t tell him if I am attracted to a friend or if a friend disclosed attraction to me.
I talked to him about it once, it was with my LO1. That relationship had reached EA level and LO1 tried to persuade me to leave my husband. Disclosing to my husband hurt him more than it helped the situation. He still lives with that pain. And, unfortunately, my LO1 gained fame so we can’t avoid him completely. His name and artwork just pop up at random and there’s no getting away from him. It reopens the wound every time. And, as if that wasn’t enough, my daughter is a fan of LO1 and I had to somewhat disclose to her too so that she would quit talking about LO1 around my husband. It was easier when I carried the burden alone and my family just thought LO1 was a friend of our family. I had established good boundaries with LO1 and wasn’t in danger of slipping into another EA. Before disclosure I just had to suffer silently every time his name came up. Now my husband suffers. I really should have kept that burden to myself.
That is my experience with disclosure to SO. It may not be relevant to your situation. I do hope you will answer the question, why do you want to disclose to your wife? I’m not challenging you, I’m just curious.
Best wishes! I truly hope your marriage has brighter days ahead.
Lovisa, thank you for sharing your experience with disclosure to SO. I have wondered a lot about that. I tend to feel the same as in it would hurt and worry my SO more than any benefit that could come from just dealing with the discomfort myself, especially when boundaries have been set and there is no danger to getting involved (especially if there is no disclosure to LO either).
You are welcome, Limmy. I understand the conflicting feelings about disclosure to SO. I wasn’t going to do it, but an ecclesiastical leader told me I should disclose to SO. I wish I hadn’t because before disclosure, I suffered when LO1’s name came up. After disclosure and probably forever, my sweet husband suffers. I can see it on his face and I hate that I caused him pain.
You might consider reading this article.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/
These might help, too.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-not-to-disclose/
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-to-disclose/
Good luck!
Per the advice of Speed I had a couple chats with my LO today instead of the cold shoulder. I made my mind up and took the approach to bring back the pre-limerence energy and talk to my LO as a true work friend again. It went really well. We laughed a lot and she told me about some of the stuff she is doing for wedding preparation this weekend.
As of a few hours later I don’t feel bad at all. I heard something yesterday that spoke of you bringing the energy you wanted to receive to the interactions in your life. Perhaps a bit woo woo but it made sense. If I simply want to enjoy her presence for the final two months with her I had to make the choice to do so.
We’ll see how I hold up but as an act of closure I started writing her a good bye card I plan to give her on her last day. There is no disclosure of my feelings outside of the purely plutonic “I think you’re an awesome person thanks for everything” vibe just written more eloquently with our inside jokes. I’m hoping it can serve as some closure for me as well.
@Rufio,
I’m glad it was a good approach for you. So much of being limerent for a co-worker who you have to coexist with is trial and error. I found a while back that trying to be cold and all business like was just not in my nature and made me feel worse towards the end of the day. Then the next day I would come to work and over compensate by being too attentive. Just a good stable day in and day out approach works well for me where my LO and I enjoy little interactions.
Now, that being said, it seems I have woven a tangled web. I have found out in last couple weeks that two other employees have noticed the affection between myself and LO and talk is starting to happen. None of the things they are noticing are over the line issues, more just the way we talk to each other, the glances, time spent in my office having chit chat.
What complicates this is that one woman is a very dominant extrovert and very observant and also very insecure. My LO is fairly introverted but also confident. They have both worked for me for over 4 years and never really gotten along much interpersonally. Now that this woman has noticed she is acting somewhat cold and almost mean towards my LO and my LO wants to confront her. My LO is not aware that the issue is the mutual attraction between us that is being noticed.
Today I discussed it with my LO and I very much flirted with the edges of disclosure.
The whole thing now feels messy. I think it can still be smoothed over by me taking greater care to just act professional and equitable in my interactions with my LO and my other employees.
Oh wow. Im quite surprised this never happened to me. If we are in the same space me and my LO are always close and speaking. I wish I had some sound advice on how to handle the office situation. I like your last thought of just being professional. Any other course of action seems to have a much higher chance of deteriorating the situation faster.
I think people notice these things more than we think. Just by being with a particular person more than average attracts notice. Hard to avoid it in a confined workplace.
Speedy,
Stevie Wonder could have seen that coming.
What precisely did you discuss with your LO? What’s your electronic paper trail look like? I hope you’re not putting evidence on company equipment.
A lot of this is now out of your control. Your Observant Employee (OE) is holding the grenade but she may not know it.
If your LO confronts her, she might pull the pin. OE might just toss the grenade to your LO for poops and giggles.
At least one person is watching you. Assume she’s talking and everyone is watching you.
You’re in a minefield.
Yes, it’s a minefield.
The situation is complex with some layers dating back well before my LE. Let me try to explain as best as possible.
The OE is my most skilled employee. She takes on more responsibility than anyone else. But, she is also insecure and is constantly trying to show her worth to me and others. She is a dominant personality and is highly social. As such she tends to take to certain people and shut out others. Right now she has one other female bestie in the office and they have struck up a close friendship both inside and outside the office. The OE is also a fairly standoffish person with a wide personal space bubble. My relationship with her is pretty matter of fact, work oriented.
My LO is opposite in a lot of ways. She is less skilled but good at her level. Where my OE is more autonomous in her work, my LO likes more guidance. My LO is warmer, friendlier, and sees me as a mentor. My LO is also more objectively beautiful than OE, though OE is not unattractive. These are the things that led to my LE.
Well before the LE, the OE did not like LO. Just conflicting personalities and life stages. They don’t have to work together so not an issue. Everyone stayed in their lane. But there were some moments of friction. OE thinks LO is too needy of my attention.
Fast forward now with OE seeing the greater amount of affection and attraction between me and LO and she feels less valuable and in competition with LO.
The solution her is equitable professional attention and not to broadcast my attraction in the way I interact with LO. Up to this point it’s mild, but becoming noticeable both on mine and my LOs part.
There is no paper trail. No emails. This is all just face to face interactions and personal texting (which is a paper trail, just not on company equipment)
It’s a minefield, but I will keep an eye out with great diligence for each new mine.
Oh…and I did say to LO, who is distraught over OE and has come to me about it, that “she probably feels threatened by our closer, more affectionate relationship”. That felt like edges of disclosure to me.
Need to stop digging hole.
Speedwagon, the hole just got deeper. I see why you said it, but yikes. Hopefully the words didn’t register in her mind in their literal sense. Try to avoid the word “affection” in the future. I think “closer” is an okay way to describe your relationship. It can have innocent meaning.
Speedy,
“Oh…and I did say to LO, who is distraught over OE and has come to me about it, that “she probably feels threatened by our closer, more affectionate relationship”. That felt like edges of disclosure to me.”
It is disclosure. If your LO was an unwitting LO before, she’s a complicit LO now. You better hope she doesn’t become a hostile LO. You made the statement and there’s another employee to back your behavior. Even if you escape professional consequences, you reinforced the attachment. That may come back to haunt you.
You don’t see mines and you get rid of mines in two ways. You sweep them or you detonate them. You really can’t sweep these. That’s what makes them so dangerous. You set a course that gets you out and hope you don’t hit one.
“…two other employees have noticed the affection between myself and LO and talk is starting to happen.
What complicates this is that one woman is a very dominant extrovert and very observant and also very insecure. My LO is fairly introverted but also confident.”
That is a recipe for disaster! Is there a special project that can occupy the other employee’s time and focus? Maybe something she could find purpose in? Maybe something that could help her shine so she is less insecure? Can you tactfully distract her? Can you find reasons to praise her to boost her confidence?
The OE is starting a fairly large project that will occupy her. That will help. Also, as good timing would have it, she was up for a review and I did give her high praise and a boost in compensation. She walked away pleased.
I don’t want to paint the picture that everyone is at their desk stewing and ready to explode. That is not the case. But I do need to take great care not to broadcast my affection for my LO and provide equitable attention because the OE views this as favortism and it triggers her insecurity and she questions her worth.
Rufio, I love that you brought positive energy back to the relationship. Thank you for stopping the cold behavior towards LO. I think it’s important that we remember most of our LOs did nothing wrong. They are innocent bystanders of what is happening in our minds. They didn’t actually cause the limerence, we cause it with our reveries.
I really hope it lasts. It is 24 hours later and I still feel pretty good about everything. It is like a light came on in my mind. She was speaking of her fiance and telling me about her wedding planning and was so happy. I just realized I’m not a part of her outside life. I can however be someone she will always remembers she worked with.
I feel silly as a grown man but also writing her good bye note yesterday(two months early) got me really emotional but felt like a closing of a door.
Also, a huge thanks to this website. It is incredibly cathartic to share these feelings and thoughts somewhere and receive feedback and support. It has helped me tremendously. I know Dr. L said something about users opening a new forum. I would love to stick around and help people.
Rufio, your positive attitude and kindness is helpful. I hope you stick around, too.
I’m glad it is going well with your LO. Hopefully you can stay positive for the next few months and enjoy the time you have left with her.
A little related but somewhat OT humor for a Sunday morning…
Most offices have one, or more, busybodies (BB.) People know who they are. A BB can range from ruthlessly competent to bewilderingly clueless, from benign to “watch-your-back” dangerous. Most of the ones I’ve encountered are on the left end of the scale. The benign ones can be fun to mess with. As a boss, you have to keep your eye on them so they don’t impact the operation.
True story:
One day the branch BB saw me talking to the boss. He came into my cube and asked why. It was none of his business. But, in a moment of inspiration, the Muse struck me and I told him that I’d been appointed the Branch Sycophant (BS). It was obvious he didn’t know the definition of the word. I told him that if I did a really good job, I could get promoted to Division Sycophant, and maybe even Department Sycophant. I told him the positions didn’t pay more but they were high profile and everybody would know who you were. That last part would have been true.
He said that he hadn’t heard about the opportunity and it should be open to everyone. Honestly, he said that. I told him that he was right and he should take it up with the boss and maybe the union. The conversation took place outside another co-worker’s cube. After the BB left, he came out laughing and just shook his head. The guy said the BB would be a great sycophant.
A short time later, I got a call from the boss telling me to come to his office. He asked me if I’d said those things to the BB. I admitted it. The boss told me, “Damn it! Knock that S–t off!” [Phrases I’ve heard multiple times in my career.] My response was how did I know the BB didn’t know what “sycophant” meant. I told the boss that what was scarier, was the BB went to him before he looked up what it meant.
That BB was dangerous.
Limmy/Lovsia,
Being that my wife has bipolar means she at least understands the “natural” part of the limerance whether she understands it as affront to her or not. Most of the discussion came of why I think thoughts of LO other than her. Her response to my confession was much more emotional even with her understanding it was out of my scope of choice.
As far as brave not so much. For over a year my wife has been convinced LO and I have been having a PA so disclosing limerance is just something that needed to be said. I actually have no desire to. LO is with a man that takes very good care of her after a very nasty divorce. Granted my wife was very understanding of limerence but not very kind to the thoughts that I have of LO. Additionally if my wife is being truthful LO has been on my mind enough that I speak her name repeatedly in my sleep so it just needed to be addressed.
This has been the only woman that has done this to me and i don’t know why. My thoughts are a lot of the time on her. And I don’t understand why. The guilt is heavy. And the problems we’ve had long before LO are what we argued big time last night.
I hate myself that if LO contacted me I’d be in ecstasy. I’m (for my fellow gamer readers) am miserable pile of secrets.
Adam, thank you for sharing. I see why it was important to open up to your wife.
I’m sorry you are in the “I hate myself” phase. It sounds like you are experiencing shame. Shame isn’t helpful. Shame can exacerbate the problem. If you can flip that shame to “guilt” or even better “acceptance,” you’ll have more control over your limerence. The limerence doesn’t define you, it’s just a problem you are experiencing. When it is over you might even recognize growth that you wouldn’t have experienced without limerence.
By the way, your attitude towards your LO is unselfish. You appear to genuinely want what is best for her even if it means pain for you. What I mean by that is that you don’t want to disrupt her current relationship because you recognize that her SO is good to her. Very cool. You seem concerned about your wife’s feelings, too. That is awesome! It says something about your character.
Good luck to you both!
Lovisa said it all perfectly. You are a good guy, Adam, don’t beat yourself too hard over this.
The part I can relate to is “I hate myself that if LO contacted me I’d be in ecstasy.” While hate is perhaps too strong a word and one I personally avoid, this is the part I dislike the most about limerence. I don’t like being at anyone’s beck and call. It is giving away your personal power.
Update post…everything blew up on me today and I had full disclosure with my LO. I won’t give the background of why that came to be today, I came into the day not knowing I would do this, but there are some factors that I felt made it necessary.
She was becoming aware that a few others in the office were insinuating some type of relationship between us and asked me about it. To be clear, nothing has happened between us, other than some off work hours chit chat texting sessions. But at this point I don’t want the talk to continue and I don’t want to keep compromising this woman and have her assuming a bunch of stuff so basically I disclosed that I had developed feelings for her and other people were catching the vibe. I framed it in a mild way…I did not get into Limerence and love or any talk like that. Just feelings of affection and a desire to build a more personal relationship.
What amazed me is she was clueless about all this. Absolutely clueless. She thought everything that had gone on between us, the texting, the long in person talks, the eye gazing, the looks, a few phone calls, were all normal friendship based. She even said that her husband knew we were texting when it was happening and we were texting for 2-3 hours and many times the texting was initiated by her. I was blown away by this? How could she be so naive?
Also, she made it clear she never had feelings for me other than friendship. I feel like an idiot for completely misinterpreting her cues. It amazes me because her body language towards me was so positive all the time and she initiated a lot of the off work communication.
At the end of it she understood, but was shocked. She felt guilty that she led me on.
I took 100% of the blame. I told her I want to just move past all this and get everything back on a good professional relationship. Obviously this kind of thing is not an everyday occurrence and it will take some time for her to process. I hope she processes it well. It is out of my hands now completely.
As for my limerence, I am hoping this is truly the death of hope and I can get on with purposeful living. I am spent emotionally now.
Oh wow, reading this I could almost feel your shock. I am and I am not surprised to be honest. My LO told me a past story of how she hung out with a guy over the course of a few weeks doing various activities and then was shocked when he asked her out.(we were speaking of flirting) I remember at the time laughing with her but thinking in my head “OF COURSE HE LIKED YOU”.
It can also attest to the power limerence and seeing the things we want to see. I know you and I have shared stories back and forth about “signs” and eye contact. However, the further removed I get from mine and see my LO in a normal light the more I see she is simply being very friendly because she is comfortable with me.
I hope it is the end for your Speed. I still have moments of struggle but the weight seems to have come off me quite a bit and boy does it feel great. I have even had comments at the office about how I seem in such a good mood again after a few months of despair. I hope you feel this weight lifted as well my friend and that everything in your office works out!
It was a crazy scenario and part of me feels a weight lifted and part of me feels like this is only the end of round one and round two of whatever craziness is about to start.
What gets me scratching my head are a couple things.
One, what started my limerence for her after 3 plus years of not feeling anything is sensing her attraction to me. If she truly had none where did that come from? Is the universe that cruel? Maybe.
Two, how in the world did she have no idea I had feelings for her? I was not subtle on many occasions.
Three, how in the world did she think it was normal to be texting me every couple minutes for a few hours straight on a Sunday right in front of her husband. And how was her husband OK with that?
My mind right now is racing, it’s all very surreal.
She cried a bit during the talk, I think it was just overwhelming. But she was in my office a few hours later and she seemed OK and we kinda joked about it. So hopefully no damage done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Ia83p6rA4
Well, Speedy, the only question that I can really weigh in on is #2. When I disclosed to LO #4, her response was, “Wow! I had no idea. I’m flattered and under different circumstances, might even be curious. But, circumstances are what they are.”
I’m not surprised that she wasn’t attracted to me but it surprised me that I took her by surprise. I thought I was leaking like a sieve. One of the other moderators on her website thought there was something between LO #4 and me.
What that said was LO #4’s attention wasn’t on me.
Did you read this? https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-not-to-disclose/
Yes, I have read that blog about 10X. I was dead set against disclosure until other people got involved. At that point I felt I needed to control the narrative with LO.
I believe the next week is critical and I will give her wide berth. She will go through a series of emotions I am guessing. At best she is flattered and hopes to just maintain a friendship and good working relationship. At worst, she quits because she feels her professional relationship with me is now compromised.
As for your first question…
In over now 30 years of marriage, only one woman has ever gotten inside my head. LO #4.
It took several years to fully develop. I escaped without significant consequences but I was operating under nearly ideal conditions. I didn’t like how she did some things but I thought she always acted in good faith.
She was the right woman in the right place at the right time. All LO #4 did was provide me the opportunity to go off the rails. I didn’t have to go down that track but I did.
Hopefully, things will work out.
I recently read something that says men tend to overestimate interest in women’s body language and behaviors, whereas women tend to underestimate a man’s interest.
Also, some people really are more clueless than average. If people in the office were picking up on it and she wasn’t, she might just be a little insensitive about these things. Or she underestimated the interest. Or is in denial (because she is married). Or perhaps wanted to enjoy the flirtation, and did not want to acknowledge it because of her own guilt. Or has poor self-esteem and did not think anyone could be attracted to a married woman like her. Or thought her marriage made her immune. Or she’s lying and she knew but claims not to. Or a bit of all of the above.
I know myself, that although I suspected my LO was interested in me, I knew I felt great around him, but sort of dismissed it till a good friend confronted me and observed to me that she thought he was. When there is no more plausible deniability, then the LE moves into a different (and less pleasant) stage.
Speedwagon, Limmy has some good answers for you, too. I’ll try to answer your questions. Thanks for sharing your experience. I hope this helps.
“One, what started my limerence for her after 3 plus years of not feeling anything is sensing her attraction to me. If she truly had none where did that come from? Is the universe that cruel?”
She is attracted to you just not the way you thought. She likes you. The alluring signals are meant to draw you close because she likes to be close to you. She never meant to lead you on. The closeness she wants is friendship.
“Two, how in the world did she have no idea I had feelings for her? I was not subtle on many occasions.”
She read your signals as friendship, too. Also, just a guess, she thinks that since you are both married, she can let her guard down. After all marriage is sacred right? Speedwagon doesn’t want to violate his vows either so the sexual boundaries are well established. She doesn’t even have to worry about that. It’s so refreshing to feel safe around your friends. LO could let her guard down and just enjoy you because you are both committed to your marriages. Or so she thought.
“Three, how in the world did she think it was normal to be texting me every couple minutes for a few hours straight on a Sunday right in front of her husband. And how was her husband OK with that?”
She was having fun with her friend. Her husband sensed that it meant nothing to her. He likes to see his wife happy. Her boss seems like a good person. It’s probably nothing to worry about. Here’s an eye opener for you. I’ve had similar texting experiences with my male friends and my husband is right next to me. Sometimes I tell him what we’re texting and he puts his two cents in. Sometimes I tell my friend it came from my husband sometimes I don’t.
“My mind right now is racing, it’s all very surreal.”
That makes sense. You will get through this. It’s hard now, but I suspect you cured your limerence.
“She cried a bit during the talk, I think it was just overwhelming.”
Of course she cried. She feels terrible and confused.
“But she was in my office a few hours later and she seemed OK and we kinda joked about it. So hopefully no damage done.”
That is a very good sign.
Good luck, Speedwagon! I’m looking forward to the next update.
Next update. Today was a very good day. I was able to manufacture a work outing with LO that took about 1.5 hours. A lot of time to talk freely after yesterday.
The vibe between us was good. She is not creeped out by me which was a worry I had. Our communication seemed all the same. She did not shy away from me one bit. She did have some more specific questions about the attraction to her and I answered them openly and honestly. Again, I did not get into Limerence, talk about creeping someone out, but just kept it framed as a desire to know her more personally and build a relationship with her. The physical attraction part was all implied of course.
She seemed to understand this and admitted she liked our relationship too.
It is apparent that she does value my friendship and she admitted to feeling like I was a role model in her life. She told me she also doesn’t ever text any other men, just me. But, it is also apparent she views marriage as very sacred (which it is) and is not in the same head/heart space to blur those lines with me from a romantic perspective. I think I’m glad for that…because I have had that eraser in my hand for months.
We parted the day on very good terms and I feel encouraged. But I’m not stupid and there is still pitfalls ahead I need to be diligent about. My biggest fear now is she will tell her husband and he will ask her to quit. I asked her not to tell him, but this is out of my control ultimately.
Speedwagon, you did it! Maybe disclosure can be a good thing. I remain solid on the DO NOT DISCLOSE team, but it sounds like you might be on the other side. I am really happy this is working out for you and LO. That is good news!
Here is my latest update with LO3. Remember he is the one who disclosed to me. Yesterday he told me that he intends to be more distant in our conversations going forward. He said that he noticed himself using our correspondence as an escape from his family problems. He intends to focus on being a better husband and father and that means reducing contact with me. I support him fully. I want him to have a strong family. As I am typing this, he is reaching out to me. He also reached out twice last night. It’s very nice, but maybe a little confusing, too. I intend to follow his lead where contact is concerned. If it’s just “likes” I’ll reciprocate. If it’s “comments” I’ll reciprocate. If it’s texts, I will be warm and engaging. But I intend to let him initiate. Am I on track?
Can you answer something for me, too? LO3 knows I am not a threat to his marriage. He even thanked me for having good boundaries. He said that I strengthen him, he feels uplifted and like he is enough when he talks to me. I guess I don’t understand why I am a problem if I am uplifting. I guess it’s a distraction issue. Does that make sense? Can you tell me why he intends to be distant?
I’m seriously so happy for you, Speedwagon!
Well, it’s really a bit too early to tell if it’s a good thing. I am hoping so for my specific situation. Today was good. I will keep you updated on it. But thank you for being a supporter.
As for your LO, yes, I believe it is good to let him initiate and set the frequency and quality of communication. But what worries me is that he seems very conflicted. Like he wants to pursue you romantically but knows you have boundaries. Some days he wants to test those boundaries and others he withdraws as guilt or disappointment set in.
Since you both seem to have good communication, you might just ask him what it is he *really* wants. If he is being honest, it might be something unexpected that you both need to deal with to properly move forward.
That helps, thanks! I will try to be brave and ask him what he wants if the opportunity presents itself. In the meantime, I’ll let him lead our communication habits. I really appreciate your perspective, thank you.
Please do keep us informed. It has been interesting watching your story unfold. You are so brave to share it in real time.
Ok, Speedy, you survived the first mine.
Now, some more things to ponder…
“LO” is a title. It’s not a position. So, what place do you plan for LO to have in your life? Seriously?
I’ll ask you the same questions my EAP counselor asked me after LO #4 began to confide in me and I saw a giant snowball coming down the hill at me.
1. “Does your wife know about this?” – My response was my wife knew of my acquaintance with LO #4 but not that I’d become her confidante.
2. “So, you’re hiding this relationship from your wife?” – My response was that LO #4 was 2500 miles away and we’d never actually met. We weren’t in a relationship. The EAP counselor glanced at the emails and said, “Oh, yes, you are.”
3. “Are you willing to sacrifice your marriage and family for this woman?” – My answer was, “No.”
The EAP counselor said, “Then the answer is simple. Get away from her and stay away from her. Stay involved with this woman and it will not end well for you.”
By disclosing, you’ve laid the groundwork for things to continue. Every list of indicators of an Emotional Affair cite hiding communications and the nature of the relationship from your SO.
One thing I’ve observed from my years on LwL is that we often think we want our LOs in our lives but, if we’re attached and want to stay that way, we have no place to put them.
YMMV
“… she is simply being very friendly because she is comfortable with me.”
Yes! You get it, Rufio. And you are so nice and considerate that I bet it is enough for you. She is a lucky girl if you are willing to accept her as a friend.
@Limmy
None of that stuff about what men and women notice or don’t surprises me. I’ve seemingly had it confirmed multiple times. I believe that people believe what they want to believe as you were saying.
I’m of the mindset that if a guy is spending a lot of time with you, asking you questions, trying to make you laugh etc. they are at some level interested.
Lovsia/Limmy,
Thank you for the kind words. It use to be so much easier when I hadn’t disclosed to my wife but as I mentioned it was going to come out in one way or another, so doing it by my choice was probably better.
I can sometimes just see the look as I walk past my wife or look up at her and wonder if she is wondering who I am thinking about. Sometimes there is a lot of pain in her eyes and it’s because of me.
And then in the next minute I am washing dishes and a song comes on my playlist that reminds me of LO, and again I am thinking about her. I’ve talked to her once since she left work back in June. And that was her calling me from the office that she use to work in. I work at a different office but the same company. She and her gentleman friend and her two daughters are doing well. They’re becoming a family. And I am so happy for them and their joy. But god I miss her.
Oh Adam, that is so hard. If you feel comfortable sharing…how and what did you tell your wife? Please only share what you feel comfortable sharing.
You have a heavy burden on your shoulders and your reaction makes sense. I know this isn’t popular to say, but I will be praying for you and your wife today. I will also try to put myself in her shoes to see if I can offer you some insight. I am so sorry you are going through this.
In the meantime, can you do something fun? Can you do something for yourself that will lift your spirits? Your brain has been building pleasure neural pathways with thoughts of your LO. Can you start building some new pleasure pathways with something healthy? I use running. I also like high adrenaline stuff like cryotherapy. Anything outdoors feels good to me. Maybe a hike? I don’t know what you like, but please do something for yourself. I know it can feel selfish to do something for yourself, but boosting your mood benefits everyone in your life. When you both are ready, I hope you can do something fun with Mrs. Adam.
Hang in there. The limerence really can get better.
I basically just tried my best to explain what limerence is and how it effects my thoughts and behavior. I assured her none of the thoughts of LO were of a sexual or romantic nature. I just enjoyed her company and liked talking to her. I had left some of the articles with her I printed out at work. Especially the ones that Dr L wrote for the spouse of a limerent. I didn’t want to over explain and I didn’t want to sound cavalier either. I told if she wanted to read any of the articles she could and if she had any questions to ask.
I unlike Jason M ever had contact with LO outside of work. She had texted and called me a few times about work and I saved her phone number. I only found out months later that it was not a company phone and that it was her personal phone. So since she has left I have not called or texted her. She knows how to reach me so I leave it up to her. I don’t want to unnecessarily disrupt her new life.
This past Saturday night we talked and that quickly turned into an argument where both sunk our claws deep in each other. Me because I know I don’t voice when I am upset or hurt by something or afraid something that might hurt her feelings. So on my part I was letting a lot of resentment out which isn’t fair to her. I hope to approach her again. Maybe I can get her out of the house and have a date night together and talk again.
I have been play an online game with my boys here since around Christmas time, mostly, a couple hours each night before dinner. And that has really helped me distract from LO. Granted she still comes to mind from day to day but it helps. Sometimes on the weekends I go out and take a walk, since by the time I get home with daylight savings its dark by the time I get home.
I really appreciate you and Linny’s words and advice. It has really helped me immensely. Also I have found it therapeutic to try to remember to speak of her as LO instead of by her name. It makes me feel a bit more distanced. Which I need to do. Equal the mental distance with the physical distance.
Thank you again
Adam, I’m sorry, I don’t understand why that was hurtful to your wife. To me, you addressed limerence very well. It sounds like there are many other issues and that was just one of them. I am so relieved that you didn’t disclose to your wife that you are attracted to LO.
Have you heard of Marriage Helper? They have many free videos on YouTube. I wonder if you would benefit from learning about PIES and the love path.
It sounds like you are committed to strengthening your marriage. It also sounds like you genuinely care about your wife’s feelings. Those are two huge strengths!
You mentioned your boys. I’m assuming those are your kids? I would encourage you to read to them or help them with their responsibilities like homework or housework. I love to see my husband being a great dad. It makes me so happy. I think that’s universal for all women. Just a suggestion.
And, maybe while the tension is high, set the problems aside and just have fun with Mrs. Adam. Again, just a suggestion.
Hi everyone, as of a week ago I had never heard of “limerence” let alone that there was a whole ad hoc community dedicated to helping each other out for it. For the last few days, I’ve read as many of the articles on this site that I could, including much of the comments, where most of the healing seems to take place. I’ve debated whether to write in since it’s not something I usually do, but if it’s okay, I’d like to share my version of the story, even though it’s much the same as others’ I’ve read here. I’ll try to get the lingo right and apologies ahead of time that this is so long.
I am currently in an LE with a co-worker for about the last, oh, probably 8 months. We met only just a year ago at a company lunch. I had just relocated to a new state and through a bit of a glitch in the HR system, she showed up as reporting to me on our company personnel database. I thought she was attractive, but soon discovered she was married with two kids, which I thought of as a bit of a bummer if I’m honest, but she was very outgoing and friendly with me. That was probably the start of the glimmer. And before going any further, I must note that I am married with a family myself and I was probably vulnerable to LE because I check a lot of the limerence boxes, getting on in married years, the spark is long gone, feel like a drifter and this seemed like a fun distraction.
We were on sister teams so we didn’t work together on a day-to-day basis, but were in some of the same meetings each week. However, soon after, she reached out to me on our internal company messaging app about some work-related questions, which I happily answered. There were some more interactions of this nature, but quickly I found myself thinking of reasons to reach out to her and soon we had some inside jokes and a good friendship going. At this point, all of this communication was just during work hours, even though not strictly about work. Imagine a time lapse here of this going on for the next four months or so, filling a novel’s worth of communication. Keep in mind that this is all it is at this point, but I’m already well on my way in terms of LE. I’d constantly check to see if LO was online and even go so far as to check her meeting schedule to see when she was not in a meeting and thus more likely to respond.
Eventually I found an excuse to text her company phone with a work-related question. I didn’t get a response, so I followed up the next work day on the company messaging app and she said she doesn’t really check that phone and then gave me her personal number. I couldn’t believe it. And when I texted her from my personal phone so she could have my number too, her enthusiastic response sealed the LE deal. It was like what a hit of crack must feel like. Texting became my LE drug of choice. Any response from LO just fueled the flames, and I began obsessing over what I could say to get reciprocation. I lived for those times when she’d send a heart reaction. I’d often stare at those just imagining what LO meant and trying to read between the lines. We started scheduling 1 on 1 lunches about every other week. Most everything was initiated by me and with my insistence, but LO seemed to be game and didn’t mind how much I texted or some of the near disclosure comments I’d say. In fact, a couple of times LO told me I was never a bother.
Needless to say, I couldn’t think of anything else. I’d ruminate long into the night and often wake up and not be able to go back to sleep because my brain would start trying to figure out what else I could do or say next, what possible situations I could somehow orchestrate so we’d get to spend time together. I remember Dr. L saying something along the lines of “If we could just come up with the right combination of words and actions to make them feel the same towards us.” That was my days and nights. I literally could not think of anything else, so much so that it was affecting work and home life. I couldn’t focus on work and I was moody and irritable at home, especially if I didn’t get my hit of reciprocation from LO.
My obsession came to a head just a couple of weeks ago and was the beginning of what led me here. Christmas holiday was about to start and I was going to be on vacation the last two weeks of the year, but I desperately wanted to see LO while I was on break, especially since my birthday falls within that time to use an excuse to meet, so I managed to get her to schedule a lunch to celebrate my birthday. There were so many reasons that this was perfect in my mind. My birthday was the day before we were scheduled to have lunch but well into the afternoon, I hadn’t heard from her, let alone a Happy Birthday. I finally reached out to confirm plans for lunch, at which point she remembered it was my birthday, but followed up immediately by saying she couldn’t do lunch after all with what I thought was a lame excuse. To say it was a letdown is the understatement of the century. My mood instantly crashed and I felt like I was on the verge of depression. I was numb. I tried to salvage some feeling by once again texting and hoping for a kind word and there was some during New Year’s Eve and even wished Happy New Year past midnight and got a nice response. However, it wasn’t enough for how down I was feeling.
Then come last week, it was my first day back to work after holiday and I was miserable and could not focus on anything else. I literally searched to know if I had low self-esteem because I figured only a loser like me would be uncontrollably obsessed with someone else like this. Finally, I just searched “Why am I obsessed with someone?” and the first result was Dr L’s article: https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-do-i-become-obsessed-with-certain-people/. This was the diagnosis I didn’t know I desperately needed. This knowledge was a detonation of the holy hand grenade in that part of my brain where limerence lives. Suddenly it had a name and a community, and just like that, it was like the fever broke in the night and I awoke a new person free from the obsessive pain. I couldn’t believe there were so many others who were going through exactly what I was and that has made all the difference. I felt a new sense of empowerment over this LE, that I could take back control. I resolved to begin NC and a staged withdrawal – no more initiating communication, either at work or texting outside of work, no more going by her desk to chat. I figured I wouldn’t hear from LO anyway since I was the driving force behind it. In my more sober moments, I’d think about consequences like if this really went the way I wanted. Was I willing to have a PA? To destroy everything I have in life? Would I really want to destroy LO’s family? But I would usually quickly push those thoughts away.
This is already way too long, but so far it’s been working pretty well. I still think of LO a lot but not in an obsessive way. I’m not sure this even reached the level of EA, let alone PA, although there was a part of me that desperately wished for it. But I’ve been sleeping way better and feel a lot more productive at work and home. My mood has improved tremendously. LO did reach out about rescheduling lunch, and part of me feels bad for accepting, but also a win because I was chill about it and I’m not holding my breath that it’ll actually happen and will not push it. I also did get a text from LO over the weekend with one of our inside jokes, but replied in a very limited way. It was really hard not to over-respond like I usually would and felt kinda crappy about it, but I have since decided to follow some of the advice I’ve seen in the comments about simply being a normal friend. It’s not in my nature to just ghost someone and I will not act in a vengeful way nor treat someone in the same way I feel I was treated. As has been noted, LO likely has no idea of the effect she’s had on me since it’s all been manufactured in my head. I now realize that she is just friendly who had no ill intent. I’m taking a lot of advice from here in terms of disclosure since like others it would come as a surprise most likely. And as of now, don’t plan to discuss with SO so this can all just dissolve away quietly. I hope I can continue recovering from this particular LE and now feel confident I can take steps to prevent it from happening again. I’m also hyper-aware of how I communicate with others as I don’t want to give the cause someone else to go into LE because I thoughtlessly gave the impression that I’m interested (I hope that makes sense). I thank all of you for your inspirational support through previous comments, even though you had no idea it was helping a stranger like me. I hope I can give back to this community in the same way I have been helped.
Welcome to LwL!
This place is like a beacon on hill. It’s a great place for getting past the profound sense of isolation and accompanying self-loathing that limerents often carry.
You only see ~10% of any iceberg. For every limerent here, there are 9 who aren’t.
DrL has given us a marvelous resource.
Welcome Jason M! Thank you for sharing your story. It is fairly typical. I suspect you are in the “good days and bad days” stage. Hang in there. Better times are ahead. It sounds like you have already learned a lot from the site. That is good news! May I suggest that you come here when you are tempted to reach out to your LO.
FYI, I am on team Never Disclose! I’ve disclosed to two LOs, once on accident and once when I addressed the elephant in the room. Both disclosures were a disaster! I disclosed once to my SO and now it is a pain that he has to live with. My current LO disclosed to me. That actually seems to be working out, but I still don’t recommend it. I mean what are the odds that you would disclose to a fellow limerent? I do my best to make his experience pleasant which I think is working. He does the same for me and I am grateful.
If you decide to disclose to SO or LO, please read the articles about disclosure first.
Best wishes!
Your story sounds similar to mine in the co-worker space. Glad you are doing better and you seem to be on the right path!
Being a normal friend again is tough but so far it has worked most of the time for me. There are days when I still feel down or kinda high depending on the interaction with LO. We simply have to keep it between the lines, so to speak.
I like to remind myself that many of my LO’s actions have nothing to do with me and if someone liked you romantically they wouldn’t act like that.
Example: Yesterday was great, I made her laugh a bunch, we had great convo and she went out of her way to wave at me and smile playfully as I was leaving for the day. Felt incredible the rest of the day. Today she was a bit annoyed with office stuff and we only chatted about work. I offered to help her, even give up some of my, lunch time, but she didn’t seem interested. it hurts but it is my problem because she isn’t thinking in terms of spending time with me. I am.
Rufio, you are doing great! You made her laugh and didn’t get too high off it. You also recognized that she needed some space to be grumpy LO and you gifted her some space. You are an awesome friend.
Lovisa,
Your comments always make me feel good. I would like to thank YOU for being a good forum friend!
Aww, that is so sweet Rufio! I feel the same about your comments. You are very welcome.
Jason, this place is great of information and advice. I just no myself, like you, recently discovered what limerence is after over almost two years knowing LO. And the glimmer happened around 6 months or so after meeting her.
I have only been here since the past Friday and I am already feeling better about how to get through this. The readers here are amazing helpful and understanding. And there is people in all stages of limerence so you can probably give to the community just as much as they give to you.
Thank you all for the words of encouragement, I definitely need it at the moment since I heard some news today at work that directly affects LO and I’m fighting a powerful urge to reach out because I know it’s a convenient opportunity to be a support and get that interaction fix. But that’s all it is, a temporary high that will fade and leave me worse off. Plus, I need to remind myself that LO needs to focus and doesn’t need me to be a distraction. At least it helps to try to think in terms of what a regular friend would do or say and put myself in her shoes by thinking, with the news she received, would I want someone bugging me about it? Probably not.
Stay strong. All my comments, while I love helping others, are also reminders to myself. It doesn’t go away in a no time flat for most of us. The worst is when your whole body protests. I failed at least twice today not to go into the same room as LO and continue a conversation. Intrusive thoughts all the while, “why didn’t she stay and talk” “why didn’t she invite me to help her”. I know I can’t be with her but now I feel like I’m not a good enough friend. Limerence is a slippery beast, finding new corners to hide in.
Hell, I even rationalize my rationalizing, “even if she does like me she just hides it because she is protecting her engagement”. We are going to be ok though my friend!
“ even if she does like me she just hides it because she is protecting her engagement”.
That’s not true, Rufio. That is a limerent lie. She is not hiding anything. She does like you a lot, but not romantically. Speedwagon brought that type of situation into focus for us this week. Don’t listen to that lie. Listen to the part of you that can make her laugh. She is almost gone. Enjoy the last few weeks if you can.
Welcome. Glad you found this place. My story is much the same. Middle aged, 14 year younger LO who caught my eye at the office. 10 months of agony and yesterday the cat was let out of bag and I disclosed. You can read much of the story on this blog and in the rescue fantasy blog.
I have found that getting yourself into a routine of interaction that you can count on helps the cause. For me that was no texting but some face to face personal interaction each day. For a long time this is how I operated with decent success.
The last three weeks though, it all blew up and now my LO knows. Thank goodness she is not creeped out and she wants to maintain a good relationship with me. We were able to joke about it today and maintain a comfortable vibe with one another.
For me, having disclosure was a big weight lifted, but now I still need to be diligent about not sparking the limerence fire still and maintain some boundaries. But having the uncertainty of her feelings gone…huge relief.
I’ve been through a lot of the limerent pain over the past three years and perhaps I have wallowed in it from time to time.
This website, and it’s wise author, have been very helpful.
Reading some of the very long and detailed, presumably cathartic, comments I would say this:
GO NO CONTACT!
GO NO CONTACT if you possibly can. Diminish each thread of contact, personal interaction, WhatsApp, text messages etc., one by one. Delete the photos.
I am currently unwell so the much vaunted “purposeful living” advice is difficult for me. I guess I am fortunate, however, that I no longer need to see my LO as he has moved away.
All best to all of you.
I just arrived here and have a very very similar story to TP it would seem. I’ve been in an unhappy marriage for close to 15 years. Two kids under 10. My LE forcefield hit me in April. I Buried it until September when I confessed it to my therapist (who is technically a life coach). I am a competitive athlete and my LO is my sport coach. So I literally pay my LO to make me the best version of myself and compliment me etc and they are exceptionally good at it…unfortunately that also hits upon my deepest issues. My family had been effectively cancelled in my teenage years so I lost all friend relationships at that time followed by a terrible experience of unrequited love or LE simultaneously (it was a relationship but unrequited love). My sibling was very ill as a child and had a personality disorder demanding the lions share of my parents attention so I filled all that empty space of not experiencing much love or healthy relationships with achievement. I became a very successful adult with all the trappings minus the unhappy marriage (caused by my taking the first nice guy that came along after the big period of upheaval). It is in no way shocking I would fall for someone who finally showed me validation, encouragement and a type of love. Oh yeah it’s same sex LO too so that’s additionally complicated because I heretofore identify as straight. My LO definitely does give me disproportionate attention and I don’t know that I’ve fully given up on it… but that’s the glimmer talking because there is no way. But for me to disengage from the LO would be upending the source of my joy and my team and my routine. It’s a disgusting mess and I don’t understand why this happened because I was the happiest I had ever been in my life before I admitted I had a LO. It’s been a rapid downward spiral of self loathing, obsession, distraction and confusion ever since. I think I know this happened so I can seek a better partner in life, but I am now aware how deep my trauma around rejection and anxious attachment issues are. I doubt they are fixable frankly. So ugh. To get out of my marriage would mean the destruction of all that I spent 20 years building (much of it using achievement as a salve for deep desperate loneliness I had gotten over) as well as the impacts on my children. On top of all this my therapist encouraged me strongly to tell my LO love. I basically did everything but that and feel incredible amounts of shame around it. I feel very stuck in every possible way and just at a loss to understand why it has come about that I have to re-experience all of these feelings of just desperately wanting to experience love from somebody after having done a lot of work to get over all the issues I had in my past and become a strong confident person. Why did this have to happen?
“Why did this have to happen?”
Ah, the million-dollar question. I’ve asked myself umpteenth time this question as well, at first as a protest, now with some curiosity.
I find your story interesting from the point of view that you sound like you have a fairly purposeful life with your sport, and have worked on yourself. I met my LO in the middle of a professional renaissance, searching for more purpose already as it were. So why limerence NOW?
I am not entirely sure these are the answers but here are my thoughts on some possibilities:
1) self-sabotage. Things are going so well! Let’s blow it up. This would be due to some very deeply buried feeling of unworthiness.
2) limerence as a way to avoid intimacy in our primary relationship. To keep a distance from our SO. Although we all think we want close, intimate relationships, some of us have some genuine discomfort with being too close.
3) wrong purpose. Even if successful in sport or other profession, perhaps this is telling you that this is not IT. Not the most fulfilling purpose for your life. Or maybe it is encouraging you to look at OTHER aspects of your life, eg. spirituality, you mentioned finding a new partner. Certainly, unless you have EVERYTHING sorted in your life, there will be room for improvement SOMEWHERE, and this is a wake-up call that there is a problem somewhere.
Thanks for the reply @Limmy. This happened in a renaissance era of sorts for me also. I was a successful entrepreneur and sold a company (giving me the flexibility to pursue my sport after grinding hard at work for a couple decades). My LO moment of realization came when I lost a big event and I came back and my LO wrapped me in a big hug and told me how proud she was. The earth fell from my feet. I’m a pretty serious overachiever, nobody has loved me in a moment in failure (or if they did they didn’t happen to mention it). Meanwhile my spouse has always struggled mightily professionally and there is a lot of mutual resentment. As it would turn out this is not dissimilar to my LO’s story (I found that out after telling her I was considering ending my marriage, that sent me into s downward spiral). I think I know this happened to make me look at the relationships in life where I severely lack from genuine connection… I found that with LO. All the things I’ve done in life can’t fill the loneliness void and until I met LO and my associated teammates I didn’t even know it was possible for me to connect deeply with people, including friends, because I had a hard wall up after being cancelled. But to end my marriage I will have to give up my house, my lifestyle and likely go back to a demanding career that I don’t want. And blow up all I have provided for my young-ish children. My LO experience now has reminded me why I focused on school, work, and being a superstar human who radiates energy….I have a black hole of not really knowing anything other than conditional love and major rejections. So not thinking this whole search for a more suitable mate is gonna shake out so well for me, particularly if I’m broken by the fall out of destroying everything I used to distract myself with for 20 years. My therapist is beyond frustrated with me for not believing, manifesting, acting like a victim etc etc but I look at this whole thing and thing I was doing pretty well before. LO and I had a very fun flirtation going and my therapist pushed me hard to push it further by confessing to her… that blew the lid off all my serious issues with rejection and I’m a mess. Unsurprisingly my sport performance went downhill fast. So I’m basically adrift here clinging to affirmations from my LO that I’m a great athlete and our shared sense of humor. Apart from that it’s just being consumed by turmoil for 3+ months. I think I need to fire my therapist (life coach) who tells me I’m living a lie with no integrity and will be miserable until I break from all the material things… it’s not the things, it’s the pursuit of distraction to fill a hole because I can’t seem to bond normally with someone who has a similar amount of “life force” so to speak. My absolute desperation to be loved freaks out the people with whom I am peers because I’ve done so well with purpose on multiple fronts.
@SGA Ah yes, over-achieving to create an identity we can live with so we don’t have to feel the pain of not being enough just as we are.
Your LO was just there at the precise emotional moment when you were utterly vulnerable. My LO arrived just as I was wondering if my SO still loved me. In both our cases it appears to be a desperate need for love.
Your description of your psyche could be my own. I am considered the most put-together person (my siblings call me the one who got her sh*t together), everyone’s angel (I am not exaggerating), the best friend anyone could have, upstanding neighbor, etc. But no one sees that vulnerable side, the one that made me open to falling for a LO that is in every way unsuitable. I think partially what drew me to LO is that he’s so flawed like myself although he also LOOKs all put-together. It’s like I recognized myself in him right away.
My SO, who I love deeply, is without darkness, the best, most decent human being in the world. We were just going through a rough patch: I’ve now fixed it, but unfortunately, LO has rooted in that short crack of time, and I can’t get rid of him! I mean, it took me 20 years to get over my first LO (that’s like 18 years of NC). I don’t let go of people I care about easily.
I wish someone could tell ME what is going on with me.
Limmy,
“But no one sees that vulnerable side, the one that made me open to falling for a LO that is in every way unsuitable. I think partially what drew me to LO is that he’s so flawed like myself although he also LOOKs all put-together. It’s like I recognized myself in him right away.”
Ah…the seething cauldron of insecurity contained by the outward show of cool control. People like that aren’t fragile, they’re brittle. They’re tough but they have a flaw. Put them under pressure and hit them in the right spot and they shatter like a frozen windshield.
If you want to pull strings which may or may not apply to you, check out https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/. I love Schreiber’s stuff.
@Limerent Emeritus Thank you for the link. SO MUCH stuff there that resonates. I’ve saved it, as it is a lot to digest.
I don’t like that image of myself as brittle. But you may be right.
Brittle Limmy,
You’re welcome! I really like her stuff. Check out https://sharischreiber.com/sharis-blog/
Many of them are condensed versions of articles that you have to pay to see. It’s not expensive. I paid, but I love her stuff.
I might get her book too …
When I was working with a therapist to understand my relationship with LO #2, I printed out Schreiber’s “HAVEN’T WE MET BEFORE? The Borderline/Narcissist Couple” [you have to pay to read this]. I told the therapist we’d be discussing it at our next session. I already had one professional opinion that LO #2 had a personality disorder. At this point, I was wondering about me.
At the next session, I asked the therapist if we’d been in a Borderline/Narcissist relationship. The therapist had my 12 page history of that relationship.
Her response: “Not exactly, but you two were doing a really good imitation of one.
@Lovisa
“It sounds like there are many other issues and that was just one of them. ”
Oh yes there is. My wife’s bipolar has been getting worse in the last two years or so, and she hasn’t come out of this low cycle yet. And then there are the marital issues that come out of her mental illness and my addiction. I think I became limerent with LO because of our other issues, as an escape of sorts.
But I am not entirely sure that’s it. At least not all of it. LO has many admirable and attractive qualities and she a wonderful loving mother. Not that my wife isn’t. She raised both our boys while was out working to put food on the table. If I were single she would have definitely been a prize to pursue. But it could be a combination of both I guess.
I will check out the resources you have provided. And yes I am hoping that we can get through this and keep our marriage. But I am also realistic that if we don’t BOTH work hard at it, that it may end. I don’t want to be like my paternal grandparents who just both lived together in the same house like roommates all my life until they died. To me that’s a prison I don’t want to be in.
Yes they are our children. One 19 and at a in state college and the other 16 and in high school. I find much joy in continuing to be a part of my boys’ lives while going through this. Lol hell when I brought my oldest back to campus after Thanksgiving I ended up drinking a little to much with his friends and ended up spending the night in his dorm. 🙂
I am thinking this weekend I am just going to take my wife out on a surprise date night and just enjoy the time together. Maybe some time alone together we can relax a bit and come back to this when we are more calm.
Adam, I thought you were a young dad. Please forgive my error.
You are at a transition stage. Your kids are launching. Your limerence makes perfect sense! Transitions stink! We have to re-invent ourselves. We have to figure out what the new normal will look like and what is our role? You and your wife have been living very purposefully, but your kids don’t need you quite like they used to. This stage is hard for your wife, too. Our mental illness symptoms always worsen when we are under stress unless we actively treat them. I’m not surprised that your wife’s symptoms are worse. My heart goes out to her. It sounds like you have been dealing with this issue for a long time. I hope you have found healthy ways to cope and strategies to sooth both of you. I honestly don’t know what it looks like at your house navigating the waters of bipolar. It sounds hard.
I want to address something with you. You mentioned addiction and you mentioned alcohol. Did you confess to an alcohol addiction? (Forgive my naïveté. I was raised in a church that doesn’t allow for drug use so I have been fortunate to avoid those types of addictions my whole life. I’ve had very little experience with alcohol use. Lol, maybe my church should add limerence to the No-no list). Anyway, I would like to hear about how you are addressing your addiction, if in fact I understood correctly. And only if you are comfortable sharing, of course.
Your personal awareness impresses me. It is your super-power and it will help you on this journey.
Yeah I will be 46 this year and my wife will be 44. We’ve been married 23. But no worries. No harm done.
Around spring of last year I think I did just that. Subconsciously at the time. It wasn’t like I was being self aware in my changes. At least not all of them. Anyway then I decided to loose some weight. By fall of the same year I had lost 40 lbs. I also decided to try and stop smoking or at least cut way down. Which so far I have cut way down. And in the midst of all that I had drastically changed my wardrobe. This one was something that was really I think the subconscious part. I went basically from jeans & tshirt to business/formal-casual. And in the midst of all these changes my wife had asked me if I was having a mid-life crisis or trying to attract the attention of another woman. (I think this might have been where the PA with LO wheels started turning in her head.) I kind of blew it off, as the later wasn’t the reason for the change, at least at a conscious level. And I had no idea what a mid-life crisis would be like so I didn’t take much stock in it. And certainly didn’t think about midlife interfering or making her bipolar worse. But she has definitely been taking our oldest son being away at college badly. In fact just the other night I had to comfort her as she just all of sudden started crying about not getting to see him very much. He’s come home probably half a dozen times since he started in August of last year. But we have gone to campus and brought him lunch and ate with him and his lady friend a couple of times. Me, I am more proud of the man that he has become and the drive he has to better himself so he is a better place in life than his old man when he gets to be my age.
Yeah I have been drinking since I was about 18 in varying degrees. I have my good spells and I have my bad spells. I will admit that, since I got married, my drinking habits are linked to the condition of my wife’s mental illness. I can even see that. But I still have done better at it then when I was younger. Especially when I was single. I really drank heavily. Now I am what they call a high functioning alcoholic. And there is no doubt I am an alcoholic. And I have done nothing really about it other than self checking myself about driving after drinking and checking in with my wife that my behavior isn’t negative towards her or our son living with us. She did say she has noticed I’ve been drinking more than usual during the last few months. Which is probably around the time LO quit and left my life. But she says I still treat her and our son right and have not been negative. She did say I seem to be more frustrated than usual. Probably due to the intrusive thoughts and that for so long I held back from telling my wife about my limerence until the pain was unbearable.
No worries, I came from a very conservative christian home. I was rasied Jehovah’s Witness and did not leave until a year or so after we got married. She was not a Jehovah’s Witness and that is a big no-no to date/marry outside the religion. I can understand the either positive or negative effects religion can have on people.
I never thought that I was really all that self aware myself. I guess I am not that self aware if I don’t even know I’m self aware 🙂
“ I never thought that I was really all that self aware myself. I guess I am not that self aware if I don’t even know I’m self aware ”
Lol, you are now. Read your posts if you need proof. That’s really funny.
Thanks for sharing. You have a lot going on. I like that your son is thriving and you have a positive attitude about his future. No doubt your wife feels the same in addition to missing him.
I’m concerned about your being an alcoholic and drinking more lately. Is it helpful? Would it be helpful to quit? Is there something I can do to encourage you to kick that habit? I’ve attended 12-step programs with two friends: one was for meth and the other was for cocaine and the drugs he used to replace the cocaine. I love the atmosphere in those meetings! If you’ve never tried it, may I suggest you check one out?
I think you are right that you and Mrs. Adam just need to do something fun together. She is feeling a void that your son used to fill. Maybe you guys can do something fun and maybe even take up a new hobby. My husband and I start ballroom dance classes next week and I am really looking forward to it. Just a thought.
Not sure if I can answer either question. It’s been a part of my life for so long I honestly doubt that I could go 100% sober. I certainly could try to do as I did with my smoking and cut back to a point. As far as helping, again, its as much a part of me as anything else in my life. I think the dangerous part of it is that I don’t let it interfere with the important aspects of my life. I hold a job, manage my finances, take care of my family, etc. If I need to be sober for some event or task I can handle that. But when there is no reason not to drink, I see no reason why not to.
As far as helping the current situation with LO yeah it is a coping mechanism that dulls the pain from both the thoughts of LO I have and making amends with my wife. I am terrible at saying what I want or what even needs to be said if I feel it will hurt feelings and/or cause discord. I’d rather shoulder the pain internally. But this limerence is more pain than I have ever tried to bear. It ate me from the inside out until I couldn’t hide it anymore and my wife started asking questions. Even long before I ever knew what was dictating my behavior; the limerence.
If I can get her to leave the house, yeah I think I am going to surprise her and take her out to dinner and maybe even a movie if there is something she wants to watch and just enjoy the time together. It sounds nice and maybe it will help me keep my thoughts on her and not LO. Because I had a really bad day yesterday with the intrusive thoughts of LO and was finding it really hard to concentrate on work and getting my daily tasks done.
Adam, okay it sounds like the alcohol isn’t an issue. I guess there is no reason to address it.
“… I am terrible at saying what I want or what even needs to be said…”
What is it that you aren’t saying? If you felt safe to say something, what would it be?
You are right that limerence can be painful. It was a wake-up call for many of us.
I hope you are able to persuade Mrs. Adam to go out and have fun. I did something fun today. I raced go carts with my husband and son. I won, of course, but they are talented competitors. As we were leaving, my son said, “You know Mom, the trouble with your driving is…”. I cut him off, “There is nothing wrong with my driving, no one passed me, and I won.” I love trash-talking my family. Maybe Mrs. Adam would enjoy something like racing.
I am so glad you are here, Adam.
Adam, I really identify with this – mid-40s with my oldest out of the house and the next one leaving this year. I just recently lost 40 lbs too, and although LO wasn’t the reason for starting, it was definitely a motivation to keep going. In the back of my mind, almost subconsciously, I’d think, “if I just lose a couple more pounds and gain a little more muscle, she’ll fall for me too.” Clearly that wasn’t working in that regard and was the source of some of my frustration. “Doesn’t she notice?” Am I having a mid-life crisis? I don’t know either, but I do know that I’m battling feelings of wanting to just check-out of life responsibilities, like feeling I don’t have the energy to put into it anymore. Wow, this took a depressing turn I was not expecting, sorry, so I’m just gonna quit right there.
I can very much relate to that. Especially since most of the people at the office noticed themselves of my changes. But I don’t know if LO did other than one time. She saw me and asked “why are you all dressed up” and smiled at me. If there was one time in my life it took all the effort in the world for my brain to work so I could sputter out a few words and shrug.
I’ve had and are reading a lot on midlife crisis and the link to variable stages and types of affairs; especially in men. And it is a very common factor. And very prominent that they start in the work place. It seems to be a part of looking at ourselves and our past and wondering about the future.
And remember as Lovisa pointed out some comment early monogamy and monogamous relationships aren’t a natural instinct to humans but a societal construct. So hitting this age is like “is this all?”, “is she the one?”, “do other women notice me?” and there starts the instincts in us as humans to want to prove that we are desirable to our preferred gender. And it’s a helluva high too. When I got interact with LO or talk to her, yeah, it’s just all the shit going on in day to day life just disappeared and all I could think of was looking in beautiful green eyes as she talked. And it takes a lot of self awareness to snap yourself out of it, as you constantly trying to justify and rationalize your behavior. So don’t beat yourself up too bad Jason.
Adam,
This one’s for you!
https://cdn.alphacomedy.com/37/2023/07_04_23_b4a30e45cec04d75cd2504db6008102f.jpg
Ive said before God cursed me with the love of women but blessed me with the love of alcohol. Can’t have one without the other it seems.
Update #3. After what felt like a good day yesterday and a step forward in understanding yesterday, the issues came to light today. My LO is off the rest of this week for an out of state funeral and I had an email from her in my inbox this morning.
Basically her worries started to bubble to surface and I think they have merit. Yesterday evening after we texted a few work related items I sent one more text of a personal nature telling her have a good trip and that I would be thinking of her. This was stupid of me, but I just meant it in a comforting way because she was going to a family member funeral.
A week ago she would not have had one bad thought about this text but after my disclosure and telling her how texting can be perceived to a spouse she freaked out now. She told me she does not hide her phone from her spouse and was worried I would say something that would damage her marriage. I felt this to be disingenuous considering all the texting she had initiated and carried on with me all in front of her spouse for months. She said she has done nothing but show friendship to me. The whole thing felt like I was being scolded and a bit gaslighted. She had done plenty that could be perceived as more than friendship even though that is how she meant it.
So, I am not about to get in a back and forth of “you said this and you did that” tit for tat with her. That will simply end bad. I simply told her any personal texting would stop between us period and that I respect her and do not want to do her damage. I said I want to move on with a good professional in office working relationship and put this behind us. It will never truly be behind us though.
She emailed back and was agreeable and thanked me.
I knew the freak out was coming, but if that is it, it was not so bad I think.
As my mind tries to make sense of her I keep coming back to, she is just that naive about marriage, and men and women or she really did have a desire to pursue intimate relationship (not necessarily romantic) with me and now that I brought everything to light she is freaking out about her feelings too. I’ve had months to sort what the hell is going on with me, she might be just getting in tune with it now.
I would be wary of how much you can trust yourself and what you perceive. As strange as it sounds the one thing I can see clearly is that I can’t see clearly and often even my best motives have something tied to them.
I do not fully know your situation or the people involved so you may be 100% correct in what you think and see. I just know I catch myself doing or saying things that on the surface I have a valid friendly reason for but deep down I find I am hoping to create a certain topic or situation. Sometimes I even notice it much later as I inevitably go over the convos in my head.
Just some food for thought. I’m feeling a bit blah as I didn’t even speak to my LO today and I notice that if I don’t make any effort I probably never would. Reality can be tough. I suppose I’ll need to get used to this at some point though.
Good luck Speed!
Yes, I feel my perception of everything is off. It’s disorienting. What bothers me is all of a sudden she is hyper aware of my texting being a problem to her when prior to disclosure she was perfectly fine with it and more often than not initiated texting in a way my SO would have been very suspicious.
I truly believe texting is the tool of the devil on the limerent mind.
Rufio…one piece of advice. Enjoy the days you have left with LO in the office. So what if she makes less effort, she is still your friend. But under no circumstance start getting into texting with her.
Speedy,
Your LO put you on notice.
Back off! Quit bargaining!
If this goes south on her, you’re going under the bus. She has enough evidence and a coworker to back her up.
My bet is her marriage is more important to her than you are. You started this.
And, what exactly are you getting out of this?
Has the anxiety kicked in yet?
@rufio “the one thing I can see clearly is that I can’t see clearly” 100% with you on that one. I used to pride myself in being a clear thinker, who does not buy “alternative facts”. Limerence and the reality-bending distortions it has caused in my mind have really humbled me.
@ Speedwagon “all of a sudden she is hyper aware of my texting being a problem to her when prior to disclosure she was perfectly fine with it”
As a woman, if a GUY FRIEND was txting me, it wouldn’t be a problem, I might even show it to my husband, but if a GUY WHO LIKES ME (and I knew it) was txting, I would feel a lot more uncomfortable. Your disclosure changed your status from the first to the second. That’s why she’s suddenly anxious about it. Think about it, if her husband asked her before, she would have said “oh, he’s just a friend” now she would need to say “oh, he’s just a guy who is in love with me.” Any husband would jump. And wonder why she was encouraging your txting. Limerent Emeritus is totally correct, she has put you on notice that things cannot continue as they were.
@LE bargaining for what. I told her all personal texting stops. I am not bargaining with her. She was as complicit in texting me as I was her. She sent me many texts unsolicited that my wife would not have been pleased about. I am not bargaining with her. I am stopping it altogether now. But I still will come here to LWL to vent.
Also, anxiety over what? That I had some feelings of attraction for girl and we texted mindless chit chat a bit. No, I don’t have anxiety over that.
I still don’t regret the disclosure. I feel this is still a better path forward with this woman. It will just take time to heal.
I should say, later today after the emailing she texted me a couple work things. I told her not to mind it and we would catch up on them Monday. She said great.
At least that made me feel like she is not stewing.
Bargaining about what..?
“That will simply end bad. I simply told her any personal texting would stop between us period and that I respect her and do not want to do her damage. I said I want to move on with a good professional in office working relationship and put this behind us. It will never truly be behind us though.”
If you hadn’t added the last sentence, I might have believed you.
Until you disclosed, she may have been complicit but she was unwitting. You shot the elephant in the room. Limmy was right.
Worst case, your LO will now cringe every time the phone goes off when she’s with her husband. She now has to manage her leakage in the office AND at home. You gotta think these things through.
Another $5 says that this is nowhere near behind you.
She was the one doing more than 50% of the text initiation. I had gone no texting NC on a number of occasions with her and she would then text me. I am fine not texting her and I made it clear with her the texting stops. It’s both on us because we were both complicit in it.
She should have no reason not to trust me with that. In fact she texted me later today about work matters so I believe she does believe it.
No, this is not behind us, it will take time. But there is no reason now it has to be an issue for anyone else either…meaning her SO or mine.
Speedwagon,
You were a safe person to her. She saw you as a role-model and friend. She trusted you. She did not intentionally lead you on. You misunderstood. She wanted closeness. You thought that meant she wanted romance. It doesn’t.
Thanks for the update. You have good professional skills. It’s obvious you felt defensive, but resisted the temptation to protest. Well done.
Thank you Lovisa. It’s very comforting to go through this with people like you to keep me grounded and encouraged. I am very emotionally spent right now.
I believe everything you say is true. I’m glad my LO is out of office right now because we both need a little space. I don’t regret disclosing because I could not keep going on under the same conditions. The uncertainty was killing me. From a limerence standpoint the disclosure helped a lot. The texting with her was killing me and she understands now that it was not the same for her as for me and a definitive solution has been made. No texting! I see a path forward now coexisting with LO. I just hope she is OK and can get past this too and not feel awkward or burdened.
Onward and upward.
I love the attitude, Speedy! You got this. And you are welcome.
I suspect your disclosure soothed the limerence because you didn’t get reciprocation. What if she had confessed mutual attraction? Or worse, what if she was ambivalent? Do you think your limerence would be on the fast track to recovery? I don’t. I think you were lucky. Every disclosure I’ve experienced revealed a mutual attraction. The disclosure escalated the attraction every time. I am still against disclosure, but I appreciate having you on the other side. Your story is educational and interesting.
Thanks for the update.
Btw, it’s ironic that you warned her against personal texting men because it could trouble her spouse, then you did it! Speedy, come on. You were pushing boundaries. “I will be thinking of you.” Come on. Before disclosure, no big deal. After disclosure, yikes! Limmy had some great explanations for you. I hope you take her words to heart. And I think Limerent Emeritus is right that you should approach with caution. Also, Rufio’s idea that you shouldn’t trust your judgment for a while might be helpful, too. It’s cool that you have a handful of strangers who are trying to look out for your best interest.
Just like my LO3, you are conflicted. My LO3 reached out to me more frequently after he said he intended to be distant. Last night he was playful which is adorable. My limerence was intense today, but luckily I am in the euphoric stage. Also lucky that I reminded myself that indulging in reverie about LO3 will build pathways in my brain that will lead to intrusive thoughts. I was able to shut it down a lot today, hopefully it’s a step in the right direction. There’s my update.
Cheers to your speedy recovery!
Yes, that was stupid. I admit it. That is why no texting, period is best policy. I told her direct today in our email correspondence we cannot text personally. I can’t trust myself and she shouldn’t trust me either. No texting, period! It’s done.
Good call, Speedy. Thanks for your response. I know you are emotionally spent. Get some sleep. I hope tomorrow is better.
@Lovisa @Limmy
I do have a question for you about what to do, if you don’t mind.
In her last ‘angry’ email correspondence to me about texting she stated “I didn’t look for this problem, I have not done anything that shows I have feelings for you other than friendship.”
This statement bothers me because it discounts my perceptions of her actions. She is only seeing it from her point of view, but I have not given my point of view about how I perceived the texting. As I have stated, I believe her when she says it was friendship motivated, but that does not mean I understood her motivations.
Is it worthwhile to explain to her how I perceived her texting and how it was a problem for me. Not to accuse her of leading me on, but to show her the difference in the way we experienced it. I feel like it is worthwhile for her to know how her perceived innocent actions could be seen as not so appropriate for our SOs and caused me confusion.
I hate that she feels like all she did was show friendship and I am now the crazy person.
What’s your thoughts?
You know what…don’t need to answer. I’m going to let her cycle thru emotions without disturbing her and getting into weeds with her on this. I don’t want to put her on defensive one bit. If she has questions she will seek me out and I will be open and honest. Otherwise I will give her space and time.
Wow Speedwagon, you are gaining some great insight. I am so proud of you for even asking the question. This shows humility. You might not like my answer, but I will do my best to steer you in the right direction.
Limmy, don’t read my response until you posted yours. I don’t want to influence you.
Speedwagon, first of all, you are not crazy and your reaction makes sense.
Let me see if I understand. You are hurt and you feel like no one is listening to your side of the story. You might be right. You feel like LO needs to understand that her actions can be misread as romantic interest not just by you, but by other men too. You want her to understand this because you want to warn her. You also want to defend yourself. You want to show that your reaction to the back and forth between you two makes sense. Did I get it?
You validated her position. You also put boundaries in place (no texting) that will help both of you. You are really trying to smooth this out and you feel like your efforts are being met with some hostility. You feel like she isn’t even trying to see your side of it.
I hope I am getting it. Please correct me or add something if I missed anything.
“ Is it worthwhile to explain to her how I perceived her texting and how it was a problem for me.”
No. It is a bad idea to tell her how you perceived her texting. I don’t think she wants to hear it and I think it will make the problem worse. This is kind of like a “the customer is always right” situation. She is in the lead. You are in the dog house. Stay there! It is the safest place for you. Just keep apologizing and validating her side. This is temporary. It will pass unless you anger her. If you anger her enough, very bad things will happen.
This lesson is yours not hers.
Also, though you think she doesn’t see how her actions influenced you, she is probably second guessing herself. She might learn more from this experience than you think. But you will never know so just accept it.
Accept these things…
She didn’t do anything wrong.
You misunderstood her intent.
She doesn’t want to learn about proper male/female texting standards.
You probably don’t get the luxury of having your side heard or validated at work. Please don’t push it.
And be grateful that she is willing to have a professional relationship with you.
I’m sorry you guys are exchanging angry emails. Here is how I would love for you to respond to what you shared…
“I didn’t look for this problem, I have not done anything that shows I have feelings for you other than friendship.”
You are right, LO. I see that now and I am sorry.
Those are my thoughts, Speedy. Good luck!
Lovisa, you nailed it and have given some great insight and advice. I’m gonna let it lie. If she decides she needs more answers from me I will be happy to provide them, but that is her choice. I will give her that space.
Your advice will be followed.
Thank you for walking through this with me. It’s a huge help!!!
Speedwagon, you are very welcome. I am learning from you, too. Thank you.
@Speedwagon
I just saw @Lovisa telling me not to read her response till I’ve responded, so okay I’ll put in my 2 cents. 🙂
In Scenario #1 where your LO really had no idea:
You have to be very careful, as if you start getting into a comparison of perceptions, you might either be seen as delusional or slightly creepy. And if you put it in writing, the record exists forever. I would not do this for that reason alone. Also, you are seeking closure, which I believe we all have to learn to live without. You need to let go of the need to get her to “understand”. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter, as you are not in a relationship with this woman, and there is no need to hash out differences, as though you are in a relationship.
In Scenario #2 where she had some idea but is denying it:
I think, she’s possibly in damage control. She wants to rewrite history, so her complicitness cannot be used against her. This could be from the view of her SO or even her own self-image (ie. she doesn’t want to see herself as a person who leads guys on). Her instinct is to protect herself, and her relationship with her SO. At this point, she might be throwing you under the bus a little, by gaslighting you. This understandably is upsetting to you, because it is hugely unfair to you, but in a way, you can’t really blame her. You just have to accept that she’s not quite as brave or honest as you would have liked.
I have now read Lovisa’s reply and I agree with her approach (“you will never know so just accept it”) 100%. And you obviously do too, Speedwagon.
Glad to hear things are getting better for you Speed! I’m taking you no texting policy to heart. I don’t have a big texting history with my LO but we have done it in a joking manner from time to time.
I love the line you used, “I can’t trust myself”! I know that very well. I’ve kinda let myself get carried away with the day dreaming and fantasies again thinking it wouldn’t hurt every once in awhile. Wrong. It is like pringles once you pop you can’t stop.
Rufio, we want you to enjoy her until she leaves. Enjoy the real LO, not the fantasy LO. Those fantasies and day dreams lead to intrusive thoughts. Be strong. Don’t even start. When you catch yourself daydreaming, redirect, come to this site if you have to. I don’t know if I am talking to you or myself right now because I am guilty of upping the daydreams in the last few days, too. It’s getting bad. I need to focus on something else. LO3 told me that he intends to distance himself from me to focus on his family. Then he increased his correspondence and he has been especially playful. There is just nothing better than a playful LO. Okay, maybe puppies and kittens are better. Hmmm, I think I’ll visit the animal shelter today to distract myself from my day dreams.
Puppies and kittens, puppies and kittens… I can do this. Be strong Lovisa.
Sorry Rufio, I got a little distracted. It’s a big problem for me right now. Hang in there. I’m cheering for you. But seriously, try to avoid the day dreams if you can, k?
I think we all post things here as reminders to ourselves, Lovisa.
Puppies and kittens, I love it!
I’m trying to just go with the flow and not purposely go to her side of the building. I tell myself if I don’t see her I don’t see her and it will be fine. No more forcing the issue because it does me no good.
I can be her friend when I see her but I don’t need to put to much into if it is a true friendship it will work itself out.
I hope you stay strong as well! I love reading your messages so keep them up!
Thanks Rufio! I’m glad you enjoy my comments. I enjoy yours, too.
When I read how you are avoiding visiting her side of the building, I have two reactions…
My thinking brain says, “You are doing great, Rufio! I love your strategy. I know it’s hard, but it’s the best way to get through this.”
My lizard brain thinks, “What? He is missing opportunities to see LO. He needs to get as much LO contact as he can before she is gone!”
I am obviously conflicted. And, confession time… I might really up the communication with LO3 tonight. My family had a rough experience today and LO3 is an expert on these things and he can answer questions as well as being a shoulder to cry on for me. He said he could do a phone call tonight. I keep thinking about how Limerent Emeritus warns the men not to be a shoulder to cry on for their LO. And I think it’s a selfish thing for me to go through with this phone call knowing that it will draw my LO3 closer to me. I’m so glad I told you. Writing this out helps me realize that I need to cancel that call. I will cancel it.
Thanks Rufio.
Hi Accountability Buddy, I canceled the call. But I also spent an hour and a half texting LO late last night. (Speedwagon will be so annoyed if he sees this. I am ready for his chastisement). I think it bothered my husband though he didn’t say anything. And I kind of tried to hide what I was doing. LO was away from his SO so I know he didn’t have to hide anything. This morning, I am questioning if we are teetering on the edge of an EA. I think I will cool off for a few days.
The texting was benign. It started when he reached out to me about my family problems (I think I told you he is an expert on the problem we were having). I guess I was kind of a damsel in distress, but I wasn’t exaggerating the experience or manipulating him for attention. It was sincere. He soothed me. He is very soothing. It’s my favorite thing about him. Then I got playful and we talked about racing go carts. I trash-talked him which he thought was funny. I told him he couldn’t beat me in a go cart race. He said he liked my confidence, but he just might have to humble me, lol. It was fun and silly.
I can already picture eye rolls from Limerent Emeritus because I kind of cried on LO3’s shoulder over text. And I can see Speedy throw his hands in the air and say, “I warned her about texting! Why doesn’t anyone listen to me?” I deserve both reactions.
LO3 has never used the word limerence with me. When he disclosed, he used the word attraction. He said he was attracted to me physically, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually and socially. And that he has never experienced attraction on so many levels. I don’t know if he is a limerent. I tell myself that he is just experiencing attraction because I feel less guilty about it. But he says things that hint at limerence like he thinks about me a lot. And he used the word magic in reference to me as if I cast a spell on him. I really want to believe that he isn’t a limerent, but when he says stuff like that, I worry that he could be.
Anyway, thanks for listening. Have a great day, Rufio!
Lovisa,
“Then I got playful and we talked about racing go carts. I trash-talked him which he thought was funny. I told him he couldn’t beat me in a go cart race. He said he liked my confidence, but he just might have to humble me, lol. It was fun and silly.”
In today’s lesson, we’ll discuss the topic of “Banter.”
Banter… It can be a lot of fun and it’s a wonderful tool for creating attachment. You gotta be careful with banter.
You test your respective challenges and responses, i.e., you’re testing boundaries. When done with an LO, it’s low-grade flirting with plausible deniability.
“He said he liked my confidence, but he just might have to humble me, lol.” – That was a test.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/flirting/#comment-1327
If one challenge goes well, the next one probes a little harder. If you’re both good at it, you can play this tennis game a long time. It’s not the content that will trip you up, it’s the frequency. It’s easy to get caught up bantering with your LO and lose situational awareness.
You can waste hours coming up with pithy banter and work yourself into an exquisite twinge imagining the next exchange. You can positively tingle.
It was banter between LO #4 and I that caught the attention of another moderator on her site. He told me that from the way we went at each other he thought that we had known each other a long time and we were really close.
That was a warning. If he noticed, other people might notice. The thing was, LO #4 later claimed that she hadn’t noticed.
Thanks Limerent Emeritus. I know you’re right. Thanks for the vocabulary word.
Lovisa,
It takes two to banter.
Banter between two intelligent, witty acquaintances is fun.
Banter between two people who are attracted to each other is part chess game and part mating dance. It can be done virtually but it’s always better in person where you can watch their eyes and read their body language.
“He said he liked my confidence, but he just might have to humble me, lol.” – “Check”
Your move.
Text banter is an electronic mating dance.
We need to stop seeing it as benign.
@Limerent Emeritus
Hmm, I really like your chess game analogy and I’m going to play with it a bit.
The opponents: limerent and limerent object
Checkmate: he or she who gets the other to disclose their love first, wins
The opening game: texts and moves that are intriguingly open ended: what did they mean by that opening move? (did they like me, did they not? uncertainty at its height) What is the strategy being set for what long-game? (is this a romance, or am I imagining it?) The players start orienting themselves and getting a feel for the opponent (crystalization happens at the end of the opening game).
The middle: exhilarating, full of clever moves and text banter, full of positioning and repositioning (who texts first, who texts last, who initiates, who gets the last word), material is exchanged value for value (who veered closer to disclosure, who gave information), who has the upper hand shifts back and forth a bit (who seems to care more), and blunders are made (ooops – I don’t even have to explain this, all of us have had ooops moments in this LE dance) sometimes recoverable, sometimes fatal.
The end game: playing for life or death, trying to prevent advance on the board, trying to contain the situation, damage control, avoiding traps that have been brewing since possibly the opening, impossibility of evading the consequences of the position we have put ourselves into due to our lack of foresight, lousy play, or carelessness. Trying to protect the SO (the Queen, the most powerful piece on the board, who is often lost in the end game) while trying to corner the LO (the King) into whatever it is we desperately want from them. Sometimes there is a stalemate where the opponents sally back and forth endlessly, neither getting the advantage (interestingly, there is a rule against making the same move three times). Other times, when you realize you are going to lose, you resign, hopefully gracefully with a handshake (stopping the LE before it runs into its inevitable conclusion; other times not so gracefully. If the game runs to its bitter end there is a winner and there is a loser.
Game on!
Limmy, I wondered what you would say about this stuff. Thanks for being direct.
Limerent Emeritus and Limmy. I know you’re right. I hear your warning. It will probably change my behavior temporarily. I’m thinking LC until Monday. Who am I kidding? I probably won’t even last the night. But I promise no texting until after Monday. I can do that. I’ll be on social media though.
I appreciate you guys.
Well said Lovisa. Because you are right. No one wants intrusive thoughts. Believe me I know. It’s what insanely drove me to the point I had to disclose to my wife about limerence and LO. And that was NOT a pleasant conversation. Imagine feeling driven to tell your spouse of X years of marriage that another woman/man is in your thoughts 24/7 that drove you crazy. It’s maddening and very difficult not to give in to the warm satisfying urge to think about them and think purposefully. Believe me the cold shoulder and distancing I get from my wife; I deserve it. But that doesn’t mean I don’t have two women breaking my heart.
Ugh! Adam, that kind of stress is what pushes us towards our unhealthy coping skills. You have two women breaking your heart. That is so hard. You need some puppies and kittens, Brother.
Can I ask you something? My LO2 is a dear friend of over 20 years. He lives in a sexless marriage. As his friend, I ask myself if there’s anything I can do to sooth his pain. I am obviously not going to have sexual relations with him, but I wonder if it would be helpful to give him extra attention or sit by him at lunch. But then this question came to my mind, “Isn’t it worse if he has feelings for two women who won’t sleep with him?” What are your thoughts? Oh and by the way, I don’t have limerence for him anymore. I used transference to my LO3 because the intrusive thoughts with LO2 were awful! We are still friends and I still care about him.
Thanks!
Adam,
No doubt that disclosure wasn’t a pleasant conversation. I don’t see how it could be.
Time to bring this one back from 2019: https://livingwithlimerence.com/should-you-disclose-to-your-significant-other/
I waited 3 years after LO #4 and I said goodbye to disclose to my wife.
When I disclosed, my wife looked at me and asked, “Did you love her?” My response was that I’d never actually met LO #4 or even actually talked to her directly. Our communication was all electronic. It got pretty personal and intense, but it was all electronic and I destroyed every shred of evidence that I had.
My wife knows the difference between and answer and a response. What I said was a response, not an answer. She asked me again, “Did you love her?” I looked at her and said, “I don’t think so.” Again, it wasn’t an answer but it was a perfectly valid response. A more accurate response would have been, “Possibly,” but I was smart enough to avoid that one.
@Lovisa
“I used transference to my LO3 because the intrusive thoughts with LO2 were awful! We are still friends and I still care about him.”
I personally would find this risky, in that the limerence could transfer back to LO2, especially if he is still attracted to you. There is nothing more alluring that someone who desires you. Our egos are insatiable! Also, even if you get through this unscathed, your LO2 in his sexless marriage and already attracted to you … you might cause HIM to fall into a horrible LE for you, and then his suffering is made worse. I feel the pull of wanting to help the guy, but perhaps you need to accept that you might not be the person who can be the one to help him.
*throwing hands in air* What did we just say about texting. It’s the devil’s tool for the limerent mind! But oh fun and addicting it can be. Lovisa…I’m not disappointed, there is no judgement here. If my LO all of a sudden wanted to text and have flirty bantor I would without hesitation probably even though she would then gaslight me and tell me it was all just friendship and how could I read into as anything else. But no bitterness here, I’m setting that aside as I navigate my own minefield (shout out to LE).
I know your LO disclosed to you, but did you disclose to him too? And does his SO know? If you have mutual disclosure and you both feel you can handle the texty bantor OK emotionally without sliding further down the full EA slope then my concern is really for the other SOs. If texting picks up frequency or intensity there will come a point it will blow up. And I would bet good money, deep down he wants to pursue the PA, it’s just that he knows it’s a long game with you.
You may want to set some ground rules with LO to keep that from happening.
Also, yes he is limerent. He just does not know the word (how long before he shows up here???…Lol). But that is evident by the way he said he wanted to pull back and then comes at you harder. He’s addicted.
Thanks Speedy! Here is how it went down…
We had an in-person meeting in June after texting since April. We had met in person prior to that but those meetings were before we became friends. Two days after our meeting he texted me that he was sorry he couldn’t be my friend anymore because he is too attracted to me. He said it was not my fault and I did nothing wrong. I said that I am attracted to him too but I can live with feelings of attraction and not act on them. I asked if he could do the same and he said he could. I also said that I would never betray our spouses. He expressed relief for my commitment to marriage. We mutually decided that we both get motivation, inspiration and comfort from each other so we decided to continue our friendship. We crossed the line with flirting once, but we haven’t done that since.
As far as the SOs are concerned, my husband knows. He has mixed feelings about it. Two years ago, I went through a depression that included suicidal ideation. That was scary for my SO. We both noticed that attention from some of my old office chums relieved my symptoms. I was texting two men every day for about a month and I was able to quit my depression medication. I also got my old delightful personality back and my libido went through the roof. I told my husband that I questioned if I was overstepping appropriate male/female boundaries. He said, “I don’t want you to stop talking to LO2 and friend of LO2.” Of course he knows their names. My mood was lifting fast and I wasn’t doing anything wrong. What’s weird is when I worked with them, we had the same conversations every day and I never questioned if I was being inappropriate. When I was doing it over text, I questioned myself. (Btw, now I know it’s called banter. I am a banter addict. Thanks again for the vocabulary word, guys). I am a house wife, mother of 5, and I don’t see adults very often. When I was working, before my oldest was born, I worked in a male-dominated industry. I was showered with attention from really good men. They competed to make me laugh. Who wouldn’t love that?
As for his SO, I don’t know what she knows. He said that she knows we text and she knows we had an in-person meeting. He also said that she gave permission for him to run with me. We are both trail runners. One of my favorite runs is up one side of a mountain and down the other. It’s 12ish miles from my house and about 3000 feet of elevation gain. Unfortunately, I lose cell service for about six miles near the saddle which makes me very vulnerable. I do it alone anyway but I would love to have someone do it with me. My LO3 is the only person I know who could keep up and who would want to do it. At first my husband gave me permission but then he he said it felt too much like a date so he took the permission back. LO3’s wife gave him permission. He said he suspected that she was relieved when my husband changed his mind. Ironically, I did a 50k run alone with a 23-year-old man on New Year’s Eve and my husband was very supportive of that. It helps that I am old enough to be his mother. I can respect that. Interestingly, LO2’s friend didn’t like me doing that. He thinks the 23-year-old is attracted to me. I just think that’s gross. It was so fun! It was my first marathon, too. My husband is so proud of me and that feels good.
I think I got side tracked. I haven’t met LO3’s wife. She looks kind and radiant in her pictures. She has a sincere looking smile. I have heard from a mutual friend that she is bossy and mean. I’m kinda afraid of him telling her something stupid, like that he is attracted to me. He likes to face problems head-on. I really hope he doesn’t. I asked him not to, but I also told him that I don’t want him to lie or actively keep secrets.
I’m really spilling my guts here. I would love to hear some male perspectives about this.
Thank you for sharing, Lovisa. That is a lot of good background. I’m glad you feel safe here to share. Sorry you went through such a rough patch but glad you are back on track. A few thoughts…
It sounds as if you seek out male companionship maybe over female companionship? Whatever factors are in your background, having close male friends is more comfortable for you than having female ones. And maybe I am wrong, maybe you have many good female friends? Just guessing here. But why I bring this up is I am the same way. I for some reason seek out female companionship outside my SO all the time. Not in a romantic sense, but for close friendship. Over my 22 years of marriage I have always had close females friends in the workplace and I am just comfortable with that. What is tricky though is balancing that with an SO. My SO is very conservative with this which is why all this texting with my LO is very stressful on me. My SO would not be pleased at all and I have had to be quite secretive which I admit adds to the excitement.
But you have a more forgiving SO that seems to understand that you need a level of other male companionship. And he seems OK with your interactions with them as long as they don’t fall into full EA and of course PA. Perhaps your strategy just needs to be good communication about boundaries, both with SO and LO, and when things feel like they cross that proverbial line, reset, communicate and move forward again. Over everything I think your SO would want to feel he is still #1 in your life to give you the emotional support you need and he needs to know that often.
But I also do worry that since you are in mutual limerence that things with LO could escalate if he keeps pursuing little by little. Boiling frog scenario. Please watch out for that.
Now take this all with a margarita size grain of salt, because I am a fellow LE trying to give perspective. Might not be the best source of advice.
You are right, Speedwagon, I do prefer the company of men. I haven’t figured out why, yet. It’s something I have been pondering for a few years. Thanks for sharing that you prefer female friends. That helps me feel less weird about my preference.
I think you are right about establishing good boundaries, too. I do a good job of this, but sometimes the excitement gets to me and I compromise my boundaries. I know I would never cross the line of engaging in sexual behavior with LO. And sometimes I restate that I will never betray our spouses if I think boundaries have been pushed to the point that it needs to be re-said. The frog in the water concern can be a problem for other boundaries and I will take your warning to heart.
Thank you for your advice. It helps to hear a man’s perspective. And thank you for your kind words, too.
Speedwagon, I hope you see this. I wonder if I made a mistake last night. My LO had a technology question and I am skilled at what he needed. Last night, I spent an hour texting him to help out. I skipped out on board games with SO and our daughter because I was talking to LO, which is very uncharacteristic of me. My SO knew why I was on my phone rather than playing with my family. He seemed fine last night, supportive even. This morning he is acting strange. We were planning to go to the spa today and I noticed he seemed uninterested so I gave him an out. Now he says he disappointed me. It doesn’t feel like he is talking about the spa, it feels like something bigger. I am beginning to wonder if you men are right that hiding LO contact from SO is the best course. I would love to hear your thoughts.
Update: I am strangely content and secure in my relationship with LO3. After he told me that he intended to be distant so he could focus on his family, the communication increased. We are at our highest level of communication and it has been a week. We just seem to have an open line through two methods of contact and it is so ramped up, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a phone call today. We are communicating every few hours from morning to night. He initiates most of it, but I do it too. I asked if his efforts to focus on his family were paying off and he said that indeed his family is more stable.
I don’t think we reached the EA level because we aren’t talking about intimate things. Also, I am not hiding it from my SO. We are strategizing our training. He has an event coming up and we are planning his training and learning skills that he can use at his event. We both use the same training tools and I know the tools’ features better. So I’ll start to teach him a feature then one of us has to go and we pick it back up later. We’ve been doing this for a few days now.
Also, I should mention that we got quite flirty and then backed down, too.
Interestingly, my limerent symptoms are minimal. My focus on non-LO stuff is great today! It’s like the lack of uncertainty cleared my mind of insecurities and I don’t feel like I need to think about LO unless I’m communicating with him. Not that I have had much uncertainty with LO3. He has been mostly available throughout this LE. He hasn’t ever been cold either.
I don’t know if these updates are helpful. But I thought I should add it just in case someone benefits.
Speedwagon,
I noticed that you said you are interested in an affair with your LO.
“…I want an EA with her. And if I am being totally honest, I probably want a PA though I doubt I could really follow through…”
I can’t wrap my brain around it, but maybe I am lying to myself. An affair seems like the worst thing that could happen. An affair would devastate a lot of people and you would probably lose both SO and LO. Whereas, if you can maintain an appropriate relationship with LO, you get to keep both of the important ladies and you won’t hurt anyone. I want the appropriate relationship, at least I think it’s what I want.
I can’t figure out why you would want an affair. If you can, please explain what I am not seeing. I would love answers from anyone else, too. Perhaps the wise Limerent Emeritus could help me understand.
@Lovisa
Sure, let me try to explain what I meant by that. I am very sexually attracted to my LO, in fact it is probably my #1 attraction to her. As such I have fantasized much about physical contact with her and how that would would come to be. At a primal level, I want to experience sex with her. But, I don’t think I could follow through on it because I know what is at stake. But it hasn’t even been a temptation anyway because neither of us have pursued each other physically one bit. But if she were all of a sudden a sexually aggressive person towards me, I can’t say it wouldn’t give me pause. Would I go through with it? I would like to think I would not.
But I am also very attracted to her emotionally and I have wanted that connection to her like you have with your LO. But I’m not going to get that either it appears. So now I just need to focus of myself, my wife, and healing from all this
Did that make any sense?
It makes sense. Thank you, Speedwagon.
I wonder if you have the same sexual fantasy block that I have. If I try to have a sexual fantasy about my LO, logic interrupts it with something like, “This makes no sense, there are no circumstances in which you would be alone in a hotel room with LO.” I can push the fantasy to a point, but the logic almost always kills it. Not always but almost.
Btw, LO3 told me that he appreciates my commitment to marriage because he likes to believe that he would never give in to temptation, but at least with me, he doesn’t have to worry about that.
Thanks for answering my question.
Lovisa, I find it quite unique what you have with your LO. I am quite envious of it. If it works for you both and your SO is OK with it then I wish you much limerent happiness. I just hope it’s sustainable and you will have to monitor that closely. Don’t let it veer off track too much. Maybe if it ramps up too much, ramp it back down a bit. And above all, keep communication open and honest with both LO and SO.
You are right Speedwagon, I am lucky. I will heed your warning, thank you.
I am so impressed with everyone here, both in sharing personal information and updates, but also in the really great advice and feedback, what a truly remarkable group. I love that there’s all perspectives – guys, girls, limerants and LOs – I learn so much from each of you.
Quick update on my end, it’s only been a little over a week since I’ve realized what was going on with me and that LO really doesn’t have feelings beyond regular friendship. I do have to remind myself of that about 100x a day, but it’s helping me keep perspective. I completely agree that I can’t trust my judgement, but knowing that helps because if I do the opposite of what I want to do, then I know that’s probably the right thing. I’ve committed to not initiating communication – texting especially since it really is the devil – but admit that I did initiate once when there was big company news that was announced (and I was in a weak moment). I managed to keep it minimal though. All in all, I’d say it’s been pretty successful so far, but I think right now I’m in a phase where I’m really on guard, which from experience I know is hard to maintain.
Part of what has shifted for me is although I do think of LO quite a bit still, it’s more tied to my thoughts of limerence overall and processing that in my mind, rather than independently ruminating and indulging in fantasies of LO. The psychology of limerence is really fascinating, at least when you’re not in the thick of it! It’s funny how so many songs have now taken on new meaning to where I’m like, that guy’s in the middle of LE. In fact, I just listened to Franz Ferdinand’s “Tonight” album again yesterday and I swear every song seemed related to it, maybe that’s why I like them so much.
Now that I’m aware of what this is, I’m looking back and realize I definitely had an LE three years ago so I’ll officially call that one LO1, but I’ve probably had more in my life, my SO was probably one actually. L01 ended really badly because I essentially disclosed. I was psychologically devastated because I really thought the feeling was mutual, and then the pandemic started so my mental state really deteriorated. I wish I knew then what I know now! But at least I have that memory fresh in mind to help with my current LE when thoughts of disclosing come to mind and taking to heart the advice here. Anyway, I’m grateful for the new tools I have now with this community that are already helping. A big thank you!
@Jason M
“I am so impressed with everyone here, both in sharing personal information and updates, but also in the really great advice and feedback, what a truly remarkable group. I love that there’s all perspectives – guys, girls, limerants and LOs – I learn so much from each of you.”
I agree, this is so lovely! I think just like Dr L made a silk purse out of a sow’s ear with his limerence by creating this lifeline for limerents and SOs of limerents, all of us sufferers are trying to make some good out of this by hopefully helping some of our fellow limerents. We help and are helped at the same time. Such a positive thing!
There seems to be a common theme about how men perceive relationship/friendship with women and how they perceive it. With myself, Jason, and Rufio, we all have LOs that act, in our perception, attracted to us while in reality they are only enjoying friendship. My LO keeps insisting that everything she did was out of friendship but if I were to describe her actions to my wife, or maybe an objective 3rd person, they would have said she is acting inappropriate for a married woman towards a married man. There just seems to be this head and heart space that women can dwell in that they can pursue the closeness of a romantic relationship without actually having the romantic attraction. I don’t think I have that ability and for myself it is very confusing to understand it. I truly believe my LO when she says it was all friendship motivated. But I don’t actually have any true woman friends that act that way towards me, and me back to them. My LO thought it perfectly normal to initiate off work hours texting, to engage in it for hours on end, and call it all friendship but then act surprised I didn’t view it that way also.
Not trying to make judgements with this, I just find it very fascinating and notice the pattern. Especially among workplace LOs.
Also…no new update today in my ongoing drama. I think that is a good sign.
Speedy,
For what it’s worth…
When LO #4 started confiding in me after her BF allegedly cheated on and assaulted her, I asked a female co-worker if she’d be concerned if a casual acquaintance of her husband started confiding in with this information.
Her response was, “Hell, yes! I’d be concerned.” My co-worker said that a woman in her situation shouldn’t be confiding in any man. That’s what sisters and girlfriends are for. She went on to say that for LO #4 to confide in a married man (me) was “way inappropriate” and it was “too easy for that to go sideways.”
And, yet, when I disclosed to LO #4 that I’d become attracted to her, she said that she had no idea. Actually, I’d been attracted to her for awhile.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-to-get-rid-of-limerence/#comment-1341
That is a fantastic example. Thanks. We each see what we want to see in our interactions. My LO saw friendship, I saw romance. An objective 3rd party would say it was neither.
I think that just has a lot to do with society and how they view interactions between men and women. I have people accuse my manners towards women being seen as flirting or trying to get my foot in the door with a woman. As if holding the door open, helping a woman with something she can’t reach on the shelf in the grocery store is flirting. And the glaring double standard of how men interact with women versus how women interact with men is that if I did any of those things for a 65 year old woman versus a 35 year old no one would think anything of it.
I think women, at least in the US, due politics, agendas and the such, get a almost limitless breath of freedom with very little to no consequences for courting the edge of flirting and then falling back on friendship. I am not saying all women do it but they certainly get the freedom to do so. Maybe your LO isn’t getting the attention from husband and so she casually flirts with you for the attention she seeks but then backs down if there seem to be some consequences for her actions coming. Like your disclosure of your feelings for her.
Men on the other hand are watched at from all sides. I am constantly on a daily basis thinking before each thing I say or action I take around all my female co-workers. Even before the glimmer with LO. And very much so after. Because one complaint whether valid or not to HR and …..
And I don’t make these statements as generalizations, but as things I have witnessed either first hand or read. I mean despicable women have filed false accusations of rape and innocent men have suffered. Now that’s either a conscious bias on the part of society, and unconscious bias, or flaws in our actual laws. But I am getting off on a tangent, sorry.
I was just mistaking comfort for attraction. Now, I think I am mistaking comfort for friendship. As someone on the other forum put it my situation sounded more like an “acquaintance +” a little more than co-workers but not quite friends.
I am not sure anymore, my limerent brain always wants more so I have a hard time just being happy with the attention I receive. I have to pick it apart and find flaw and reasons that she isn’t actually acting like a friend. She is acting perfectly reasonable for what one would call a “work friend”.
I thought I had made some real progress with seeing things clearly last week but I guess not as much as I had hoped. I’m just tired of feeling like I lost something I’ve never had.
Song of the Day: “Something’s Wrong With Me” – Austin Roberts (1972)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsDWP9gmgVs
Limerence captured in 3:31.
I loved this song since it came out. I was 16 and wouldn’t encounter LO #1 for another 6 years.
Clip of the Day: “Ally McBeal”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXhkRFCfz8k&list=PL_78XrcH0-YVHq5E4KACbviY5hOezHiiu&index=31
This one’s for Speedy. They’re both good but he can skip to 1:45.
@Lovisa
I do think a lot of it was that yes. It hasn’t been 20 years but probably around 3-4 so far with little in between. But I would never intend to, as in long term, have an affair because that’s just a shitty thing to do to someone. But I am sure some nice young lady paying me attention and being sweet to me went to my head because I am not getting that at home. My wife is not cruel or we don’t hate each other it just seems like romantically and sexually we have drifted apart.
But as I read here in the blog about the “rescuer” limerent I really could see myself. That gave me some purpose to help her in a bad time in her life. And she was very appreciate and was kind to me for helping her. She never really came right out and said it but I could feel it in her words. I think she was shy to say something direct. And I think that is because she has been around a lot of men that only look and her outside beauty and are after less than her heart. So I think once she knew my intentions to help her were genuine and was more relaxed with me it just made the limerence worse. In fact I would say the glimmer happened around that time.
Oddly enough while I feel both a genuine platonic love there is also a romantic one that I sometimes can’t repress. But I have never had any sexual thoughts of her despite her being a very attractive beautiful young lady.
So to answer your question yes I think that he would very much appreciate your company. If you have known him for as long as you have and he hasn’t developed any limerence for you than I think it would be alright. I’m sure he would very much appreciate.
Song of the day (and probably for the rest of my life) I Won’t Stand In Your Way by Chester See
https://youtu.be/WpFmlI1Ri18
Thanks Adam, I’m sad to hear that you and Mrs. Adam have drifted apart. I really think learning about the love path from Marriage Helper would help.
This is from my notes…
Love Path
1. Attraction (think PIES- Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual)
2. Acceptance (Do you accept me?)
3. Attachment (Will you be there for me when I need you?)
4. Aspiration (Common long-term goals)
Good luck! And thanks for the advice. I don’t know if LO2 is limerent for me but definitely attracted to me.
Lovisa,
I’m glad I could be your accountability buddy. I don’t know what I’m worth as I’ve just gone in the wrong direction myself the past couple weeks.
I talked to LO for half the day today and it was fun. She suggested several of us go out for drinks after. As I was leaving earlier than everyone else and they were still trying to make up their minds on when and where she said she would text me and let me know.
Here I sit. Waiting. I’m not sure which outcome would be better. When she said “how about tonight?” I literally said “oh no” out loud and she laughed because she had no idea why I said that.
3 outcomes: 1. we go and it is fun in a group setting and I get a bit limierent.
2. It gets canceled and I feel really down for a bit but probably better in the long run.
3. She wants to go even though it is only us. She seemed adamant about doing something as she said she has been bored all week. Worst case scenario?
We shall see.
Gulp
I am speechless. That is a tough one. My heart goes out to you.
I made it friend. Not much worse for the wear it would appear that moment. How are you doing over there?
I’m glad you got through that.
I’m thinking about LO3 pretty much constantly. At least every hour.
Did you see when Adam said that as long as drinking alcohol isn’t interfering with his responsibilities, he doesn’t see a reason to avoid it? (That’s how I remember it anyway). I think I am doing that now with day dreaming. But, like Limerent Emeritus says, the frequency can cause problems (he was talking about texting but I think it applies to day dreaming). If there is nothing else going on, my thoughts go to LO or this site or running. Usually LO. I think I am just a person who obsesses about things. I was obsessing about being the perfect wife and mother for many years until depression caught up to me. I really did nothing for myself. Even when I took care of my health, it wasn’t for me, it was so I could be the fun mom with energy to swim alongside them rather than sit on the edge and watch. But when you lose yourself serving others and something terrible happens, you wonder what it was all for. And you realize that your efforts make no difference in the lives of others. … just a minute, LO just reached out and of course I must respond. He said my eyes are gorgeous. I will be high all day. I can’t even think now. Sorry for the distraction, Rufio. I don’t remember where I was going with that thought. I am dizzy.
@rufio
It will be VERY hard for you to resist a chance to not see her if something goes ahead. Yet, the very best thing is for you to say, in ANY of the three scenarios, sorry can’t join you (or you all this time) because I’m busy. That is also you taking your personal power back to decide (rather than letting LO call the shots). I think Dr L once said that if it happens to you rather than you making a decision about it, you lose a bit of the satisfaction of deciding with purpose (I’m not saying exactly as he did, and he has a better way with words, but that is the general gist of it).
Having said that, it I would not judge you if you went along – it is so hard to turn down the chance to bask in our LOs’ glimmer. I have taken more opportunities than I should have to do so.
I’ve bailed on LO three times this week. A better scenario would be for me to just say no outright rather than bail on plans, but I’m working towards that. I have to say, it did feel like a let down and disappointment was acute, but by the third time, it was easier … and I don’t know if this is related but I haven’t been thinking about LO too much the last short while. Will this last? I don’t know. But I feel hopeful.
Well, I went and it was a small group of us who chatted for about 3 and a half hours.
Results were expected. Had fun, feeling a bit empty this morning.
I don’t know what I was hoping for but I didn’t get it. It is like trying to rope the wind. Could have been worse I suppose.
Limmy, I admire your strength. my LO is leaving in a month or so and I’m just kinda soaking it up. for better or worse. It is stupid because I know she thinks of me as a friend since only a few of us were invited. It is just never enough. It is insane but I want her to tell me I’m her favorite co-worker as she is mine. Lol.
Or am I wanting her to be obsessed with me as I am with her? Yeah, this is probably closer to the truth and why it will always be an empty endeavor.
For me, I want my LO to feel the same as I do. I have fantasized many times about the great mutual disclosure. It never happened, instead I disclosed, she acted shocked and confused, then angry, and insisted she feels only friendship. And now I am in damage control mode. Isn’t limerence fun?
But, good for you for going as a friend. Since she is leaving in a month you know you have NC coming. This woman genuinely sees you as a friend and I think it was good to support that. I bet you would have felt worse this morning had you not went because she would have felt let down and you would miss out on an opportunity to hang out with someone you enjoy and care a lot about.
I think you made the right choice, you chose friendship, just keep up the right perspective on your LE with it.
@rufio
“I admire your strength.”
Not strength. Just that I am further along in this “getting over LO” journey then you are. I’m not sure I could have done it even two months ago. Now, it is less torturous than for most of you still in a very strong phase of LE. You’ll get there!
“my LO is leaving in a month or so and I’m just kinda soaking it up.”
You know, I would too. Its a life experience in technicolor. And if there is a clear end in sight …
“am I wanting her to be obsessed with me as I am with her? Yeah, this is probably closer to the truth”
This is the truth for so many of us. The desire to be desired. I really think that is the underlying impetus. The fantasy of mutual limerence, mutual disclosure, ecstatic union! It would feel SO good. The ultimate fantasy.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy the month, milk it for all it is worth, roll with the punches, and may your recovery after she is gone be swift!
Speed,
The fantasies are the worst. I think that is what has drug me back down this hole. I even dreamed about her last night.
I follow your story closely because now I have kind of become invested in many people here. It is such a useful writing exercise to vent and tell my story as well.
We were all a little tipsy by the end and started talking about how sad we were she was leaving. I got dangerously close to saying to much but I told her I thought she was a very special person and how much I would miss seeing her. She got all teary eyed and said we were going to make her cry.
I also told her I was going to write her a sappy goodbye note(which I already have, yikes). I don’t know why I felt the need to say that instead of just giving it to her on her last day. I almost drunk texted her on the uber ride home but I somehow remembered your advice and nixed that idea. I want to text her so bad today just to say thanks for inviting everyone out but I MUST NOT.
I wanted something personal from her but everything was in the group context. Again, probably for the best.
I did get a hug as we all left though. Probably where the dream came from! Haha
I’m glad it was a good time and you didn’t text. Leave a good parting, hug and all, alone. Texting is a whole new rabbit hole.
I hope the next 30 days go well. You are single, correct? No SO? Makes your dynamic easier to navigate even if the LE is still intense at times.
Yes, I am single. I haven’t been in dating game since last year. I recently got some dating apps because I thought just meeting some women would help me with this whole LO situation but it is incredible how I have no interest in almost anyone else right now. I would almost feel guilty for “cheating” on someone who I don’t even date. Again, insanity.
Lol! Rufio, I have had the same cheating sensation and when it happened, I felt like I was being unfaithful to LO not SO when I gave another man my attention. Oh, that is bad. I will be pondering this today. Wow, I am questioning myself now. Thanks for making me face something that I was ignoring.
Oh no! Maybe I am a narcissistic LO! I’m a monster.
I understand the lack of interest in other women. I used to have the hots for all kinds of women but since my LE, I see my LO as the purest example of beauty and sexiness. But oddly, my attraction to my SO increased as well throughout all this. My wife is 48 and she has never looked as good to be honest. There are also about 3 other women in my life that I would say are a “crush” right now. But the gap in sexual desire between these crushes and LO is wide.
Every now and again a woman comes along that captures our attention more than others. Keep at it, I think that woman will be out there.
When LO leaves I think you will find the right thing to say. Being single you have a wider option here. You want to say enough to make her know you thought she was special, but not too much that it feels awkward to her. Keep it friendship focused because she is engaged so you want to respect that as well.
Or you could go scorched earth, admit your undying love, beg her not to marry the wrong guy, and sweep her off her feet because that is how she MUST actually feel for you too. She is just waiting for you to make the move. Works in the movies, right?
Rufio, feel free to share the sappy note here if you want it vetted by a female.
LO hugs are the best, mmmmmmm. You are so lucky!
Well, the note probably has to many specific things in it to share publicly on the forums. The chances of someone I know seeing it here are like .000000001% but if they did they would know who I was immediately. We have a small company. I would consider sharing it with you or another privately though if that is something that is possible.
That makes sense, Rufio. I don’t think there is any way for any of us to have a private conversation. You have good judgment and a few months to edit the note if you change your mind.
Update #4. LO made somewhat of an unexpected move yesterday. If you remember, LO is away for the week with her family at a family member funeral. The day she left she sent the angry email about texting. I told her no more texting. Well, yesterday, 2 days later, she emailed me unexpectedly about a work topic that could have waited easily until next week. It felt like an excuse topic to reach out. I emailed back a short to the point reply that did not need a response, yet LO responded and then I responded and then things changed topic and about 10 emails later I realized…she’s chatting me up over email now. I guess with texting off the table, email is next best thing? I cut off the email string by not responding.
Good news, she seems to be over her angry moment and that is a relief. Bad news, she apparently still wants some connection with me outside the office walls even though I disclosed.
Thoughts on this?
I will say, 5 days past disclosure, of how much of a relief disclosure has been on the LE. In the long run I am hoping it was the best move because I was not functioning well before with the level of uncertainty.
This sounds like someone that is also on some level emotionally invested in your relationship. There is no other reason after the texting thing she would do something like that over email. Purposeful contact. I would start to be wary of what she is trying to do and why now that you have disclosed. She knows you have feelings for her and is “poking the bear”.
She might have feelings for you as well and having a hard time controlling them. It would explain the anger over the texting thing and possibly protecting her marriage.
It could be innocent or it could not be. Post disclosure makes me raise an eyebrow. Look both ways at this intersection my friend.
Rufio, I don’t think she comprehends how her actions effect Speedwagon. She is making an attempt to repair the relationship because she liked it. Even if he tells her that back and forth emailing is hard on his emotions, she won’t understand. She’ll think, “Hmmmm, I don’t want to hurt him… if texting and email is hard for him, maybe I can just pop into his office for a chat or maybe social media.” She is just trouble-shooting. She wants the connection they had. She is asking herself, “How can we both get what we want?” She doesn’t understand that there is no solution to this unless Speedwagon is willing to tolerate his attraction like you are doing with your LO. I think what she wants is…
Speedwagon, can you live with feelings of attraction and not act on them? Can you still be the attentive limerent that I enjoy?
“Post disclosure makes me raise an eyebrow.”
Me too. It makes me more prone to disbelieve that she had no idea. It is not a honorable (or kind) response, if someone disclosed to her and she did not like them. A bit of a tease. Or a power trip. Or wanting her ego fed a bit more at the expense of someone else’s feelings.
Sorry, Speed, I know you probably idealize you LO, but I’m not feeling a lot of respect for her approach right now.
Speedwagon, I thought you might like a female perspective on this one.
I think she was asking the question, “Are we okay?” She still wants to be your friend. The back and forth probably gave her relief. You shutting it down hurt her, but it was the right thing to do. You set a new tone for the relationship going forward. You told her, “I will tolerate a little friendship from you, but it won’t be like it was.” You are not willing to give her emotional connection because she is not willing to give you… I guess I don’t know what you wanted from her. Mutual limerence?
Doesn’t every limerent want mutual limerence?
I am fine continuing a texting relationship if that is what she wants now that I disclosed. Disclosure let a lot of air out of my LE balloon. I just don’t want her freaking out on me if I send a certain text that all of a sudden seems threatening. That is why no texting might be best policy if she worried about her SO.
I think she can hide email a lot better. But email is a clunky way to “banter” back and forth.
I might just ask her what she wants moving forward? Whether she wants any kind of friendship outside the office walls or not?
I don’t know…maybe I give it a few good weeks and see how much she actually pursues me? Maybe it all just fizzles. That is probably the best strategy. If she pursues, then I deal with it. If not, then I let it lie.
Kind of. Every limerent wants mutual attraction, but once you’ve experienced the dark intrusive thoughts, you don’t wish limerence on anyone, not even your LO.
At least that is how I feel. The intrusive thoughts with my LO2 were awful!
Speedy,
Maybe she just wants to make sure that she didn’t sever the connection and burn any bridges.
3 months after I thought we’d said goodbye, LO #4 came out of the woodwork over something bogus. After I went to war with her, she accused me of stalking her online. A week fter I told another mod I was leaving LO #4’s site, I got a FB friend request from her. We’d known for over 5 years.
You don’t know what she’s thinking. She probably doesn’t know what she’s thinking. You dropped a grenade on her.
“She probably doesn’t know what she’s thinking. You dropped a grenade on her.”
I think this is a true statement. I’ve had months to think about what is going on inside me and how to handle it. She is just now becoming aware that maybe something is going on with her.
Giving her space and the ability to control “us”, whatever us is, seems like a good strategy right now.
*Lovisa throwing her hands in the air*
We have been through this, Speedwagon. She wants closeness from you but not romance.
“ She is just now becoming aware that maybe something is going on with her.”
The something that is going on is not a desire for romance. She lost something when you disclosed. She lost a safe, close, likable friend. She wants him back. But she doesn’t want to hurt him. She is trying to figure out if you two can be friends.
Hypothetically speaking… what if LO wants you close but just for friendship. That might look like this,
Conversations
Inside jokes
texting if you can handle it (she’ll be hesitant because she doesn’t want to hurt you or lead you on)
Knowing glances across the room (these glances mean innocent things like “something that happened amuses me did you notice it too?” Not, “I want you.”)
Maybe an occasional hug ( she might initiate a hug at some point. It doesn’t mean romance to her).
I will be very direct because you need to hear it.
She wants an appropriate friendship.
She does not want romance or sex.
I am sorry to be so harsh with you. I want you to keep yourself sane and safe. It looked like you were going the wrong way and I felt obligated to warn you.
But your reaction makes sense. Men tend to overestimate interest and women tend to underestimate it. I think we are hardwired that way.
On this website, I am learning so much about the differences in how men and women perceive things.
I hope this is helpful and not hurtful. I am still on your side.
“Giving her space and the ability to control “us”, whatever us is, seems like a good strategy right now.”
“The stability of a control system is determined to a large extent by its response to a suddenly applied signal, or transient. [sounds pretty much like what happened] If such a signal causes the system to overcorrect itself, a phenomenon called hunting may occur in which the system first overcorrects itself in one direction and then overcorrects itself in the opposite direction. Because hunting is undesirable, measures are usually taken to correct it. The most common corrective measure is the addition of damping somewhere in the system. Damping slows down system response and avoids excessive overshoots or overcorrections.” – https://www.britannica.com/technology/control-system#ref199539
Your LO is “hunting.” The questions are is there a solid baseline she can lock on to and how good her “damping,” is. The overcorrections in either direction can be large and frequent. They’re worse if you make changes such that she can’t lock in on things.
She won’t be stable until you become stable. Otherwise, you’ll chase each other and the system can become unstable.
Thats a very “engineering” response to a very “un-engineering” problem. Not sure what any of it means in practical terms.
I am more stable emotionally right now than I have been in 10 months. I can be whatever she needs me to be for her to become stable.
@ Lovisa
I think you misunderstood. I don’t think she wants sex or romance in the least bit. That ship has sailed. That’s not what I meant by “us”. By “us” I just mean some level of intimate friendship, whether that just happens at the office or outside the office as well. I will give her control over the nature of it.
Speedwagon, I misunderstood, sorry. Thanks for clarifying. I am learning so much from you.
The funny thing to me is Speed has what I wish I could have with my LO. Something special between us as friends. Perhaps it is there but nothing like texting and emailing a lot 1v1. No real closeness besides a few talks about our personal lives.
Sometimes I wonder how perceptive she is though. I wonder how obvious I am as well. I must not be to bad because she is really comfortable with me in personal space and body language.
What you wish you had though will then not be enough and you will want the romance too. I didn’t text with LO for a long time and things were easier but then we slowly ramped up texting and finally had some intense texting sessions that created that feeling of closeness to her in me. It was horrible enough that it put me on the fast track to disclosure. And then I find out all these texting sessions were in front of her husband too?!? I feel like such a schmuck!
What still gets me is my misread of her body language also. She just seemed so taken by me at times in her body language. But that was just her comfortability with me, and not physical attraction.
“What still gets me is my misread of her body language also. She just seemed so taken by me at times in her body language. But that was just her comfortability with me, and not physical attraction.”
Yeah, I’m almost certain there is some minuscule level of attraction but a lot of stuff is unconscious. She doesn’t even realize she was doing it around you and it is not something she wants to happen since she is married.
As I’ve come to grips with my situation and gotten more comfortable I’ve paid attention and done some little experiments. I talked to my LO and another person for over an hour yesterday at work and she mimicked my body posture almost the entire time. Hands behind back, then leaning against a wall. Hmm, 2 for 2. Finally I started winging my hands and hitting them together. A couple minutes later she started doing it.
I just kinda laughed to myself. It doesn’t mean anything but what else was I going to do while we were talking about rescue dogs and killing a Friday afternoon waiting to go out. I’m a loon, lol.
Very interesting experiment, Rufio. Thanks for sharing.
Speed asked: “Doesn’t every limerent want mutual limerence?”
I think so, yes. And also, it is probably the most dangerous scenario of all. For me, when it seemed like mutual limerence, my LO was irresistible. When I no longer felt he cared as much, I could then begin to let him go. I think for him too, when he thought I no longer cared as much, he could let go of me. But who starts first?
On my part, once I had decided to hit the brakes, I proceeded to hide any desire I had for him so well, I think it would have been impossible for him to think I cared. I constantly showed off a wonderful relationship with SO and praised my SO as a good husband and great father, I told LO often I was busy with my family and children, if I did something special for him I told him I did it for other friends too so he wouldn’t think he was getting special treatment, I personally never initiated any hugs, and if he did, I never lingered (I emotionally blocked myself during any hugs so they felt meaningless to me), I took every opportunity I had to obliquely point out to him basic incompatibilities between us, and I even supported him in dating others. Objectively speaking, I was a caring friend, but nothing more.
The only place I seriously erred was the texting. This will NOT surprise any of you, considering all our texting woes. The content was never inappropriate, although very entertaining and witty, but the frequency! I never texted any “friend” that often. I knew even while I was doing it, it wasn’t “normal”. I think that was my – our – biggest slip up. Sometimes I think limerents texting is like rats hitting the lever to get intermittent treats!
But that too, is finally easing up. I am beginning to be able to resist (more often than not) reaching out by text, and I’ve been able to turn down opportunities to connect in real life too.
Now that I have tried it, I think if you “pretend” you don’t care, it becomes a virtuous cycle, and they begin to care less, and then you get the feedback, and then you actually care less, and so on and so forth, and eventually, you both don’t care so much. But this is hard to carry through to that conclusion because it is the total opposite of mutual limerence, our deepest heart’s desire. The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. My approach cultivates indifference (eventually).
All this requires that you be very good at hiding your emotions. Both from SO and LO. I can’t wait till all this ends and I can stop hiding so much.
“I think if you “pretend” you don’t care, it becomes a virtuous cycle, and they begin to care less, and then you get the feedback, and then you actually care less, and so on and so forth, and eventually, you both don’t care so much.”
Limmy that sounds logical, but I feel like it could create uncertainty. This pretending not to care technique seems to be working for you. It will be interesting to see if you’ve found your cure.
@Lovisa
Oh my, it sounds like you are having a tough run of it today. That dizzy high might be nice for awhile but it always ends in a crash at least for me.
I am having some of the same problems. I’m not sure how I lost this much ground. Now I’m having intrusive thoughts about messing up our friendship when we parted on a hug it makes no sense.
I find myself jealous of my friends that get to be in the same office as her and a little sad she doesn’t come see me as often as I find an excuse to go over there.
All this on a Sunday and she is the first thought in my head upon waking. The wind was blowing hard earlier and I imagined her somewhere standing in it starting toward me.
You mentioned swimming, reminded me of the a nice little mantra via finding Nemo, “just keep swimming, just keep swimming”. I hope we can both find some way to feel a little better today.
Feels like quick sand sometimes though.
Rufio, it actually does make sense to me that you feel like you are losing ground. I like your “just keep swimming” attitude. And I am happy to talk about LOs if you prefer, but, in the just keep swimming spirit, I want to try something. Let’s talk about something else that gets our attention.
I’ll start. I teach Sunday school to toddlers. Today we had a new little girl who wanted some extra attention. She snuggled into me and didn’t want to let go. It was so sweet. She stopped crying, but still wanted to snuggle. I loved every second of it.
Your turn.
LOL, ummmm, I am enjoying adult beverages tonight with friends!I don’t have anything s good as yours.
Lol, lucky, you get to hang out with adults. I’m jealous.
I was at the campus where my boy is going to college. We (his mother and I) went to visit him and meet his lady friend. We had went to the store to get him some supplies for his dorm (I got me some beer too hehe). On a trip back into the dorm from the car with supplies (I was alone) I hear LO’s name. There was a group of young ladies a few cars over talking. I look up from the trunk of the car like it would actually be LO hundreds of miles away at a college on a Sunday. 🙁
I just stood there getting mad at myself for actually being stupid enough to think that it was her. Just someone speaking her name and I get stupid excited. Needless to say I wish I’d liquor not beer cause …. but we socialized and I tried to be upbeat. Our boy’s lady friend is a nice young lady and in some ways reminds me of LO. I dunno what to think of this weekend. I got a night out with the missus but got reminded of LO. *shrugs*
Adam, thanks for sharing. I’m glad you went out with Mrs. Adam. Your reaction to hearing LO’s name makes sense. Don’t beat yourself up about it.
Update #5. Saw LO for first time in 6 days and for first time since her angry email. We got about 20 min of talk time. She apologized for the angry email, I told her I deserved it. Interestingly she did ask why this happened so I told her about hitting mid life, having the attention of a younger beautiful girl, liking her attention and wanting to pursue knowing her more outside the parameters of the office…yadda yadda yadda. She astutely smiled and said it was about my ego. She hit the nail on head with that one. Of course as we all know there is much more to the depths of my depravity and my desire for her but she need not know that.
As of now, she seemed comfortable with me, not angry with me or creeped out by me and I think we are good moving forward. I hope so, but these things tend not to be so simple or easy. More crap might come.
Uncertainty gone…hoping limerence will fade.
Thanks for sharing, Speedwagon. The social experiment that is your life is absolutely fascinating and educational. I’m enjoying your story. It sounds like both of you are in a good place.
Thanks Lovisa, but I feel pretty down right now about it all. There feels like a finality now, and I came out the loser. Our texting sessions are done, and I feel sad that I won’t have an out of office relationship with her anymore. It just feels like she is now just another one of my employees. I am sure our in office relationship will stay warm, and I will enjoy it, but quite honestly, I wanted more than that and I wanted her to want more than that.
But in the long run this is good. It has given me relief from the craziness and I just need to push through loss now.
Hang in there bud. I know this feeling and it is really brutal. I’ve been smack dab in the middle of it for a few days now. I had one good week when I felt like I had accepted the situation and closure. Now, like you I just would like more and wish she wanted more.
Nothing for it but to work on your mental state. I’m trying very hard to fix this from the inside out. I hope you have some luck with it as well.
Your response makes sense, Speedwagon. You not only lost hope of reciprocation, you lost the limerent highs. It sounds like you recognize that you are going through a mourning process. Good awareness.
Thank you for sharing Speedwagon. Being that LO is miles and miles away from me hurts. But hearing yours and others’ accounts of communication with your LOs has helped to stop myself every time I want to text or call LO. I know it’s a dangerous road to travel if in at all LO would even respond. So I have never contacted her since she left for her new job. Doesn’t mean I don’t think about it every day. But I need to let her live her new life and not disrupt it. But what I wouldn’t do to hear her voice again.
Currently strikes a poignant chord with me, Adam. I really feel for you. You are being noble. It hurts. It gets better with time and no contact, so I’m told….
I hope that you are right. The intrusive thoughts seem to be getting worse than they are better. I almost can’t think any thought without it turning into a memory or reminder of LO even when I am doing some of the most simplest of daily tasks. I’m trying to be optimistic, and quiet the dread I feel that I will never get LO and I know that is not a good outcome as it is already effecting my life, my job and my marriage.
I have experienced what I now know to be limerence for my LO for about three years, Adam. The intrusive thoughts have sometimes been overwhelming. Your experiences are mine are different in several ways but I have been gradually squeezing LO from my life. It’s awful, of course. I have read the “no contact” blogs many times.
There are plenty of long wordy comments on this forum but I honestly feel, having read through your messages again, that you will recover from the dreadful time you are having. It will get better in time and the suffering will fade.
Hey you two. I used transference successfully. I was really desperate to get rid of the intrusive thoughts about LO2. You might consider it. It took about a month. Things are still going well with LO3.
Good luck!
Sorry – your experiences *and mine
Thank you for the reassurance Frederico, I needed that. I will try to continue to be positive about the future and my relationships. They say everyone in your life is either a blessing or a lesson. I guess LO seemed like a blessing (and sometimes still does in my head) but was really a lesson. I just hope it doesn’t take a long time for me to learn it.
Lovisa I am trying to direct my feelings for LO to my wife and try to rekindle that relationship before I loose it. Thank you for the suggestion of transference. It is difficult because I put LO on such a high pedestal while neglecting my marriage but I think if I can stay positive I can get past this. No matter if am forgiven or not and this marriage continues on or not, I don’t know.
Read and very carefully noted, Adam.
(Hugs, Lovisa)
That makes sense. Best of luck to both of you and your SOs.
I’ve had a better week. LO has been very warm this week. Might have something to do with everyone getting sentimental over the Friday night drinks. I know what the end game is and even found out she might be leaving a little sooner but my brain is just giving me such a hard time while trying to enjoy it.
Today while three of us talked about our time working together and she said she remembered thinking ” i like talking to this guy”(speaking the other friend ). That kind of stung as I was standing there and she’s never said that about me or to me. It is actually stupid because I know she likes talking to me and we have our own type of interactions. It is just so damn hard to be rational. Anyway, ended the day with nice conversation and I have to let that be enough..somehow.
@Lovisa “I don’t know if these updates are helpful. But I thought I should add it just in case someone benefits.”
All your posts help! Thank you for them. It sounds like you are doing better as well and I love to hear it. Thank you for all the support and thoughts. I look forward to them every time I open the site.
Thanks Rufio! It’s sweet of you to say that you look forward to my posts. I appreciate your feedback.
I’m glad things are warm now. I hope you can enjoy the present moments with LO. Let’s put off the worry about the future. Just stick those thoughts in a box and set them on a shelf for now so that you can enjoy your LO friend. When she is gone, we can open that box together. By “we,” I mean the LwL community. You are not wrestling this limerent beast alone. You have a lot of people who have taken interest in your story. I suspect I speak for Speedy, Limmy, and many others when I say that I am hopeful we hear about a lovely single girl who catches your eye after LO leaves. But whether that happens or not, for now, I would like to see you enjoy the present.
It makes sense that hearing her speak fondly about another man hurt your feelings. That would hurt me too. I’m glad you are a decent person with good self awareness because you’ll bounce back from that quickly.
Thanks for the update and kind words of encouragement.
I can totally understand that Rufio. I remember when I heard LO was seeing someone (she was single when I met her) and my mind was immediately met with jealousy. Seeing attention she gave me before directed at another man really did hurt. But I needed to realize however I saw LO in my eyes about me was all in my head. And that because of her previous romantic history she needed someone that could care for her and her daughters. Something I could not do in the present. But that didn’t mean that in the over a year they have been together that wasn’t something I struggled to do.
I was visiting her on the last day that she worked this job. I took the day off and traveled down to her location to spend the day there. At one point the man that she is seeing came to visit her. Because she is a single mother and it wasn’t school year her daughter and a friend of her daughter was there at work with LO. Him and LO talked for a bit and then he left. He came back shortly and had brought them all snow cones. (This was in the middle of summer and hot.) And that really helped me accept that this man was good for her. Don’t think I still didn’t want to be in his shoes but ….. that’s life.
And I agree with you about Lovisa’s posts. I always looked forward to them and her heart is kind and her words are touching. I’m very glad to have found this community. It has helped a great deal.
Aww Adam, you make me feel so appreciated. Thank you for your kind words.
I enjoyed learning a little more about your experience with LO. I have a couple of questions, please only answer if you are comfortable sharing, k? It’s just to satisfy my curiosity, nothing important.
1. Did she know you took the day off to be with her on her last day? If not, what did she think you were doing at her location that day?
2. How long was she in your head before she left the job?
3. Did she display some of the symptoms that Rufio and Speedwagon saw in their LOs?
4. Is she just a friendly person or did she give you special treatment?
It’s really okay if you don’t feel like sharing. I’m just curious, but your privacy is more important to me than satisfying my curiosity, so please feel free to say something like, “Um, that’s a little personal, Lovisa.”
Hang in there. You are strong and unselfish. Use those skills and you will get through this rough phase.
1. Yes. She called me the day she gave her supervisor her 2 week notice. And I told her that I was going to plan to take a vacation day on her last day to visit her. And thanked her that she personally called me to tell me she was leaving.
2. About a year. I’ve know LO for over 2 years now. But strangely when I had to work with her in person for about 4 months (per the owner of the company so I had no choice) I just saw her as a nice lady that made the mess at work we got told to clean up (invoicing and billing mostly) easier than if I had worked on it with anyone else. I would say glimmer happened around a year after I first met her. After we stopped working in person together. So I think it was that the more I got to know her the more I fell for her.
3. Not really no. If she knew I fancied her it was something she never voiced thinking/knowing. I mostly tried my best to be professional yet friendly. Though if the entire office there where she worked knew I had a “crush” on LO I’d imagine she did too.
This kind of tangent but it reminded me of a time when I was working there with her and someone mentioned that LO was going to Mexico for vacation. Someone said “LO is going to get married!” and I looked her and was like “No! Don’t break an old man’s heart.” And LO laughed and said “Don’t worry. I’m not getting married Adam” and then my supervisor goes “But she is going to cheat on you.” To which I said “No! That breaks my heart even worse!” So I think it was definitely common knowledge how I felt about her.
4. She’s just a very friendly and caring person. So no she remained professional yet friendly too. If anything I gave her special treatment even though I tried not to. Like in talking with another gal that worked there I found out what coffee shop and drink LO liked and the next day got it for her, but also got something for the other four people there too so I didn’t look like I was just favoring her. But then my supervisor (who works there with her when she was there) told me one day I brought assorted donuts for everyone and LO expressed she liked sprinkle donuts the best. He said the next day you brought a dozen sprinkle donuts. 🙂 I subconsciously must have done it because I don’t remember doing that. And I bought her a Christmas gift in 2021. And then last year I bought her and her gentleman friend a Christmas gift. I bought them a set of touch bracelets.
I have no one else really to talk about this with. And it’s still a touchy subject at home so it is nice to have some people to talk about it with that understand. So you can ask all the questions you want Lovisa. It helps me to speak out loud, as it were, to someone helps me understand my own dilemma much better.
Aww, you two warm my heart so much! I love reading your posts!
Adam, I love your stories, keep them coming. I understand how it feels like you can’t talk to anyone else about this stuff. I think that is what draws most of us here. I am soooo lucky to have a sister who I can talk to about anything. But, honestly, part of me worries that I’ll anger her someday and all my secrets will come spilling out of her, so I like this website because it feels safe.
Thanks for answering my questions. You had a cute relationship with LO. I bet she loved it.
Rufio, I love that pact you made with LO! Adorable.
I want to tell you guys something funny that happened, but no one in my real world would get it. I was doing a hard run the other day and my my inner coach actually said, “Come on Lovisa, you got this.” I called myself Lovisa in real life, bahahaha. Lovisa is not my real name obviously, but that’s what I called myself. Hilarious! I had this thought afterwards, “That is so funny! I have to tell Rufio.” Then I laughed again because I realized that’s not his real name either. I don’t know why I thought that was so funny.
Thanks for your posts, guys.
*Eye roll* You called yourself an old man…lol The Lovisa family is one year older and have been married one year longer than the Adam family.
Adam,
Acceptance is such a good thing. I’m now actively trying to be my old self around my LO. How I was when we became friends. I can feel myself struggling sometimes when we talk 1v1 as the part of me that has fun wrestles with the part of me that is head over heels for her. I told her out loud today though that we were making a pact to laugh and have fun no matter what happens at work or else where until she is gone. She seemed to like that idea. Hope I can handle it as well. Best of luck Adam!
Thank you Rufio, I hope I can carry on. But just like a functioning alcoholic just because I have my shit together on the outside doesn’t mean I got myself all together. So I think it is a really good thing that LO left my physical presence in that it will help me get my head and heart together. I would have loved to have LO stay and try to maintain a friendship but I don’t know if that would have been possible for me. Because when it comes to a lot of things in life for me it has to be all or nothing. And in the case of LO it needs to be nothing. Best of luck to you and your journey. Enjoy the time you have with your LO. I know I wished that last day with LO would never have ended.
@Lovisa
Lol! That is good stuff. Rufio is definitely not my real name just a character from the movie Hook.
Yeah, I don’t think I could talk to anyone in my real life about this stuff. They would think it was a simple infatuation.
Lovisa/Rufio
I too have that issue as I have gone by Adam on the internet since the late 90’s that even when I hear “Adam” being called out at a store or event I am at I turn to see whose calling me till my brain kicks in and is like “thats not your name” :-/
Lol!
Yes, Rufio, you nailed it.
“Really? You’ve still got a crush?” said a friend to me dismissively. Actually, we’re no longer friends now after some thirty years but that’s another story (or part of the same story…..)
Following all your posts with interest.
You took your nickname from Hook. Cute. Lovisa is my great x3 grandmother’s name.
I forgot that you don’t have to deal with the guilt that us married limerents live with. But you are right that the average person has no idea about limerence and this is a better place to talk about it than trying to explain it to a friend. That makes sense.
To be fair Lovisa LO is more than 10 years younger than me. She was born when I was still going to high school :-/ But it was an inside joke in the whole office. Mine and LO’s supervisor is only 5 years younger than me and he calls me “old man” lol So it was more to make her laugh than anything. I always wanted to make her laugh as she had the prettiest smile.
I just got reminded of another good memory of LO. It was another day that I was there and LO’s daughter, shes around 12-14 years old, was with her at work. This was back when I was smoking regularly. I had gone out into the warehouse from the office to smoke. I’m standing where I could see LO come out from the office too. So we were talking a good 20 feet or so away, and LO yells down one of the parts aisle “he’s over here!” And I look at LO life wtf lol. Her daughter comes out the side of one the aisle hauling ass running at me and right as get close to me she throws one of the things that pop loud when they hit the ground and I jumped off the ground. LO and her daughter could barely stop laughing to breath. Lol it was funny that they got me. Later on that day LO said sorry and said it was her daughter’s idea. I told LO it was okay I know how to take a joke. It was worth it to she her laugh that much. She didn’t much laugh back in them days because of her toxic ex. So it always made feel good when she laughed even if it was at my expense.
Your post above, at 6.31 pm, is the one which struck another chord with me, Adam. My responses are of the simple non-flowery variety but the things you say are absolutely spot on and I think that I feel part of your pain.
Ignore me if I’m off track or intrusive.
“I would have loved LO to stay and try to maintain a friendship…..” maintaining a friendship – it’s such a hard thing to swallow, perhaps the hardest, but I don’t think it can happen without a lot of pain.
My LO is thirty years younger than me, to my shame, and today I feel at a turning point. After an affectionate Christmas message mentioning love, he is now clearly ghosting me. So that’s No Contact arranged once more, then. It hurts but maybe the uncertainty is receding. I pick up a lot of emotional solace from reading about how other people are handling their struggles and I think it will also help me to “get a grip”. All or nothing. Yes, so true for many of us, I think, and in the end, yes, it so often has to be nothing.
that is a message from him to me mentioning “love”
I’m going now before I dissolve in a sea of embarrassment.
👋
Alright Frederico, it’s time to tackle that embarrassment. No one here is judging you. Shame isn’t helpful it can actually push us to use our unhealthy coping skills. True that thirty years is a big age gap, but as long as LO is an adult, I don’t think you should be embarrassed about your limerence. If, on the other hand, LO is not an adult, I beg you to see a therapist.
Interesting Frederico. Your LO is thirty years younger. I have a very attractive male friend who is 21 years younger and I can’t imagine seeing a glimmer in him. If he showed interest in me, I think it would be creepy. I see him more like a son. My thoughts would be, “You have nothing to offer me in a romantic relationship.” He just hasn’t lived long enough to have any depth like the men my age. I am so curious about your LO. Have you been attracted to younger men before?
Oh, and I am so sorry he ghosted you. That would be painful and I think recovery will be hard.
Best wishes.
Thanks, Louisa. I was just looking for the post when I set things out in detail. I can’t find it now but I don’t think it would interest very many people.
In a nutshell, no, I have never been attracted to younger men before. The LO is exceptional because he was a neighbour and so unusual. Friendly, affectionate, kind, attentive and funny. I’m guessing completely but maybe there was a “Dad” thing. He has a girlfriend and, now a gorgeous young daughter. There was so much bonding and I saw myself as a sort of uncle.
Overall it’s good that he has now moved away but there were lots of “miss you” and “love” messages.
It’s only fair to his girlfriend that no one is left feeling uncomfortable. I love him very much but it has to fade. I am single.
Because of the closeness (or my perceived closeness) of our friendship, I confided a cancer diagnosis to him. In hindsight, this was a heavy burden to place on a young man. The cancer is in remission now but it has taught me several things. I have to let this young man fly because whatever he felt for me has faded. He has responsibilities now.
Oops, Lovisa. Sorry!
Ha Ha, Lovisa, that made me laugh out loud. I am 68 and LO is 38 🤣
Hahaha, I laugh with you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I don’t like your attitude, Frederico. Stop assuming that other people wouldn’t take interest in your story. There, I’ve said it, I’ll be nice now.
I’m curious if you are always attracted to men or if this attraction to LO was your first same-gender attraction. There have been others in the LwL community who were straight and they had a same-gender LO. If you are going through that, you are not alone.
Lovisa as usual is right. You shouldn’t feel any shame about age. Even when I was single I had a fondness for older woman when I got to that age. Just didn’t have the courage to talk to them. LO is literally the only woman that much younger than me that has caught my attention. And it might be that she has been through a lot in her life already and has the life experience and maturity of an older woman.
Then because of her life after divorce and as I mentioned pos ex that continues to try and interfere in her life triggered my rescue complex, as my wife calls it. “You can’t make for other men’s bad behavior.” “You can’t fix every woman’s problems.” Which was probably a big part of what started my limerence for her. And also a big part of trying to let go. She doesn’t need me anymore. And that makes me feel as empty as a black hole. He’s looking after her not me now.
This is one of the big reasons why I said it would have to be nothing. Because that mindset is not respectful to her as a grown woman that is capable of solving her own problems. And even then if she needed help she would turn to him and not to me.
I love that story! Of course you got hooked on LO and her daughters, they are delightful.
Yes they are all amazing ladies. At least I got the time I did with them. I remember some boy coming in at work at lunch and talking to LO’s daughter. And I asked LO who the hell is that boy taking to your daughter. And she’s like Adam its her boyfriend. And I go well I don’t like it. And LO looks at me and smiles and says if only her father cared that much. And I said well she may not be my daughter but I damn sure am going to treat her like she is. So that boy better be on his best behavior. 😡
That is so cute! I bet LO loved it.
Adam,
My LO from the office is 15 years younger than me. We have quite a similar set up in that regard. I’m right there with you about making them laugh. It is my favorite thing to do and over the past two months I got so lost in my thoughts and sadness that I sunk away from it. I became a dried up version of myself with LO who simply tried not to put his own foot in his mouth. I felt like a silly school boy every time she was in the room.
I just have to focus on being myself with her. It is how we became friends in the first place. Your stories remind me that my time is almost up with her and that in some ways it will be a relief I will truly miss the color she brings into so many of my days now.
“I felt like a silly school boy every time she was in the room”
“I will truly miss the color she brings into so many of my days now”
I can totally get that. I would tell my other female coworker I don’t know how the hell god packed so much sunshine into one woman to make her shine so bright. And she did. The worst most stressful shitty day at work and all she would have to do is smile and my bad mood would melt away. I miss that a lot. And like you I too am just a dried up version of myself without her.
“I don’t know how the hell god packed so much sunshine into one woman to make her shine so bright.“
Oh my gosh, that is beautiful! Adam, you have a way with words.
Rufio, when I quit working to be a mom, the office threw me a very nice going away party. It was in the evening at a fancy hotel so the spouses could join us. They did a bit of a roast, but not too painful. One of the men had quilted a baby blanket for my baby. They all went in on some very nice gifts, too. My boss told me I was going out like Michael Jordan at the top of my game. The sweetest moment came from a very masculine but big hearted coworker. He was there when I started and he was there when I left. He said that I brought professionalism to to the office and I made everything better. He actually cried. I felt so loved. I will never forget it. We also had a week-long team-building training that was focused on the theme of coping with change. I will cherish those memories forever.
Don’t be shy to admit to LO that you will miss her or that she brightens the office.
Oh don’t worry Lovisa, I have that letter written in all my creative INFP glory. I almost made her cry when we were out just trying to drunkenly tell her she is special. I’m hoping the letter really hits the mark of telling her how great I think she is.
I think it will, she is a fairly emotional person as well. Thank you for the sweet story.
I broke the Speedy rule and texted her last night about some funny stuff at work and we joked. She came by my building and waved through the window. I went to see what was going on out there after a few minutes and ended up helping her with something for awhile.
Found an error in her lab an employee(we have a lot of convos about this person) was supposed to fix a little later, took a picture and texted her again saying I was “hiding” in the lab and found this and would fix it. She said she wasn’t busy and would come over and do it and that was when we made the pact to have fun and laugh until she leaves.
Oddly I still haven’t crashed or felt bad. We shall see.
Oh, that is really sweet. Thank you for sharing.
Wow, a lot has happened around here in a couple days since I checked in.
Rufio, I really think your LE will fade quickly once LO moves away. I bet within 3 months you will just be left with fond memories and no depressive or intrusive thoughts. I would cherish these last couple weeks you have with LO and don’t shy away from initiating interaction with her. It will all be over soon enough.
Adam, I have had intense intrusive thoughts for 10 months now. I hate it so much but I have learned to function with them. I have to see my LO in a close environment 4 days a week with no end in sight. It sucks big time!!! I understand exactly what you are going through. I call it the numb, just get through the day feeling. I have felt a bit better since I disclosed, more stable. The uncertainty of it all was driving me crazy and that had been relieved at least. But I am still in LE and not sure if it will ever fade. I am trying to pull back little by little now.
If you had followed my story, one of the things that led to disclosure were some office dynamics with other employees who started to notice me and LO. That issue now seems to be put to rest through some meetings between myself and other employees and LO and another employee. The office is on stable ground right now and LO seems to be stable as well. Everything has been dealt with and concluded as far as I can tell. I guess I came out OK in practical terms but not in emotional. Still feeling fairly down about LO.
But I like that I can come here, discuss it all with people who understand limerence and get encouragement and advice and be able to reciprocate the same.
Hey Speedy, you were missed. Thanks for the update. Stable equals boring so I think you will go through a little drama withdrawal. Just a guess. Go ahead roll your eyes, I deserve it.
I think you are right, the drama can be exciting. But I just want to get on with life now and I need a stable, dramaless, boring predictable routine with LO to do that.
You are right. Have your limerent symptoms subsided?
That’s a good question. The uncertainty craziness in my head has subsided and that was my biggest LE complaint. It was really affecting me. But I am still very attracted to LO and the intrusive thoughts are still there. Since I disclosed I am paranoid now about LO quitting. She puts on a good stable front and this week seemed all good but I am worried she is secretly distressed and will want to quit of her own accord or will tell her husband everything and he will make her quit. It’s going to take some time and stability, maybe a good few months, for me to get over this feeling of paranoia.
I am glad you are past the uncertainty, but the intrusive thoughts are rough. I hope you get to a boring, stable state soon.
I wonder if you are more like Adam in that you need all of LO or none. Perhaps the dance I’m doing with my LO never would have worked for you. I’m pretty sure my LO lives with a desire for physical intimacy from me that he just has to tolerate in order to have me in his life. I know that’s how I experience it, but I suspect it is less painful for a female to suppress those feelings. I don’t know. I guess I am not entirely suppressing my sexual desire for LO, I redirect it to my hubby. Just thinking out loud.
There were many internal discussions in my head before I disclosed when I thought she was attracted to me as well about what type of relationship I could realistically have with her. I knew an actual PA was not realistic for many reasons, but I had hoped a light EA was possible. I had imagined that we would have this mutual disclosure, then come up with a plan of interaction with each other to maintain a personal intimate relationship. I thought if that could happen and our interactions were consistent and reciprocal I would be satisfied. But that was limerent fantasy as well and I am not sure I could have even handled that even seeing how bad it affected me before Christmas when we were texting regularly.
Now I know that I have to go strict LC as part of purposeful living. It’s a bit of a drag now, mainly because I still desire her affection and attention, but I think that will fade with time as things become routine and stable. It’s my best option to get my life back on track. I just hope she doesn’t throw me any curve balls here. The quitting paranoia is my biggest anxiety right now but I am trusting that is all in my head and not actually how she feels.
One other thought. There were a couple days when she was initiating and reciprocating a lot of texting with me in December when I almost fully felt at peace with things. It was a feeling like I had finally “got” the girl and it felt good but it also felt like “what now?” I actually had the thought of if I really did like her now that she was showing interest. Like I was only in it for the chase, which may very well be possible. Once I obtained the object of my affection does reality hit and all of a sudden all those flaws I gloss over in LE bubble right to the surface. Her interest in me did not last long enough for me to know for certain, and the chase resumed and I was right back in full LE mode by January.
But it was an interesting thing now that I think back on it. How much of LE is really just the chase?
Sorry this is so long, grab a sandwich and get cozy…
Thanks for expanding on your story a little more. I kind of had what you described with my LO1 for 17 years. It was off and on. After 7 years he got aggressive, I think he couldn’t take it anymore. He asked me to leave my SO. I wouldn’t. He was angry and started referring to my SO as “Perfect [Mr. Lovisa]” when he talked about him. He asked, “What can he give you that I can’t?” At that time, LO1’s art had gone mainstream and his income from royalties allowed him to quit working and live a very nice lifestyle. He knew he could leave his family and still financially support them. And he could provide a good life for me and my daughter (I only had one child at the time). When he asked that question, I avoided it, but I was thinking, “Loyalty and fidelity.” My point is that I think it is harder for men to maintain a friendship with a woman if he knows there is a mutual attraction. So here we are back to my #1 message for people on this site… never disclose attraction if you or the other person is in a committed relationship.
Hypothetically speaking, if you hadn’t disclosed attraction to LO, could you have accepted whatever relationship she was willing to give you and could you have accepted that you would never know if there was mutual attraction? I’m curious.
Here’s another thought. My message to all three LOs has been the same… Yes I am attracted to you and it’s pretty intense. Yep, I would love to sleep with you. I think you are incredible. I won’t sleep with you, ever. I am only offering friendship because I will not act on these feelings of attraction. I have been really clear and consistent about it. When I held my ground firmly with LO1, he was able to go back to friendship for another 10 years, but I suspect he was just playing the long game. LO2 is very religious. He went LC with me. His friend thinks that LO2 doesn’t trust himself to remain true to his values where I am concerned. His LC is what sent me into a horrible limerent despair and brought me to this website. This website is where I learned about transference and became desperate enough to try it, which lead to LO3. LO3 is new to limerence (I feel guilty about that, but to be fair to me, he likes it so far). LO3 is just amazing so far. He has been living with the knowledge that we have mutual attraction since June. We revisit it periodically and I stay firm in my resolve that although I am very attracted to LO3, I am only offering friendship. He says it comforts him because he doesn’t want to be unfaithful to his SO and he feels safe that he doesn’t have to worry about that with me. Anyway, I am babbling again.
Let’s say you learned that your LO wanted to sleep with you, but her high standards prevented her from sleeping with you. She was only willing to offer you friendship. Could you live with that?
That is some great insight Lovisa. I really appreciate it. To answer your very last question, yes, I felt like that is what I wanted. To know she was attracted to me as well romantically but to have a close friendship that didn’t intrude into our marriages. Whether I could actually handle it in reality, I don’t know, I like to think I could. But I can not answer that unless I were in the situation itself.
The draw for sex is strong for a man. It is hard to desire it yet be content not having it. Seems as if you have been at peace with that for done time now. I would like to think I would have been at peace too, but as closeness develops, I just don’t know. I am not sexually aggressive, and neither is my LO, so the temptation of sex would of required some monumental circumstances.
My LO is fairly naive and innocent in relationships. I truly believe that she had no idea I had feelings for her and she never considered feelings for me, because that is not what married people experience. But this naive-ness allowed her to cross some lines with me because she didn’t even know certain lines existed. Like all the texting. Now she does and she has pulled back. That is why I am paranoid about what is going on in her head…I exposed it all to her now and she is probably questioning her behavior with me and her feelings about me.
I still think in my situation disclosure might be best for the long run because the situation was leaking like a sieve and something was going to give. I controlled the give and now I’m working to piece it all back together.
Thanks Speedwagon, I am learning so much from you. Disclosure may have been the best thing for you, I agree, but I want to add another thought to the debate. (I really appreciate this discussion, by the way. It helps me gain insight into something that I cannot openly discuss in my real life.)
I have other male friends and I am not attracted to most of them. I’m thinking of one in particular who I find very attractive and I believe he feels the same, but I will never know. I prefer to never know, too. Our friendship is so much easier without the extra baggage of the limerent dance.
I have already learned the lesson that I will never disclose again. But I wasn’t prepared for LO3’s disclosure and I just couldn’t lie to him. I think, going forward, I have to learn how to lie about my feelings just in case another attractive male friend discloses. I’m repulsed by the thought of lying, but I think it is the right thing to do. Here is how I picture it…
Attractive male friend addresses elephant in the room. “I’m sorry, but I am too attracted to you to be your friend.”
Lovisa responds, “Wow, that sounds hard. You feel attracted to me and it makes it hard for you to be my friend. I am sad about that because I value our friendship. I don’t want to lose you, but I don’t want to hurt you either. What happens next?”
Attractive friend, “I thought you felt the same way about me. Remember when you borrowed my jacket? The way you looked at me when I wrapped it around you made me think you enjoyed feeling close to me.”
Lovisa, thinking in her head “ugh, I have hurt someone special again!” Saying out loud, “I am so sorry that I gave you the impression that I had romantic interest in you. Please forgive me. I cherish your friendship and I don’t want to lose it, but I understand if you don’t want to be my friend anymore. Can you still be my friend?”
Attractive friend, “Are you saying that I misread you?”
Lovisa thinking in her head, “I am a monster! I am gaslighting him! Dang it, dang it, dang it!” Says out loud, “Yes, I am sorry but you misunderstood. I just want friendship from you.”
I really think I have lie next time, Speedy. What do you think?
That’s a tough question about lying. I sometimes wonder if my LO is lying to me. It makes sense that you would want to, mutual disclosure of an attraction is a whole new thing to be managed. So I go back to my situation, is my LO lying to me and is this better? If you lie then you have to be prepared for the friendship to end. LO might just go NC. On the other hand, if you disclose attraction LO better be damn mature and be able to handle the relationship with boundaries.
I’m gonna say this is really a case by case basis. Your current LO seems to be able to handle it, others might not.
If my LO is really attracted to me and is lying to me, I am OK with it. It is her feelings and marriage to protect.
Wow, good answer. Thanks.
I have a question for you. I am really worried that my disclosure is going to cause great distress and panic in my LO even though I assured her I am not pursuing her, I am not a threat, and I just want to move past it. My LO had not acted creeped out by me at all since I disclosed. As of yesterday, she seemed OK.
Can information like this cause great distress if she starts dwelling on it? Can it cause a lot of guilt in her with SO? All I really admitted is that I had an attraction to her to get to know her more personally. I didn’t lay any love language on her. I’m really paranoid today for some reason, like something bad is about to happen.
Speedy,
“Can information like this cause great distress if she starts dwelling on it? Can it cause a lot of guilt in her with SO?”
Can it? Most definitely.
Will it? Maybe, maybe not.
You may have not said anything out of line but you busted a lot of boundaries. You have no control over her reaction. So, your fate is in her hands. She doesn’t sound malicious or vindictive but she could panic.
Be careful. This train of thought can get you thinking that you should do or say something more and that’s the last thing that you want to do.
Time will tell.
I hope I can sooth your paranoia, Speedy. You are probably in the clear especially if she hasn’t shown signs of distress lately. But, my LO2 overthought things and went cold on me which I didn’t see coming, so I can’t predict your LOs future behavior. I wish I could.
Here is what you have going for you.
1. She already lashed out at you, so she may have gotten that out of her system.
2. She isn’t showing signs of being creeped out – this is huge!
3. She was already able to reconnect with you in a friendly way. This is also huge because it shows that she wants things to go back to normal.
I think things might be weird for a little while, but I really think you two will be fine.
Here’s the thing, Speedy. If I were in her shoes, here is how it would probably go down with me…
I would hope to figure out what the new normal is going to look like as soon as possible. I would hope to minimize pain for everyone, mostly my SO, you would be second on that list. I probably wouldn’t tell my SO out of respect for you.
If my relationship with you stabilized, I would probably accept it as the new normal and continue in my employment as long as I liked my job. I just don’t think this incident is enough for her to want to quit. I also don’t think her husband would care as much as you think he would. If I told my husband that my employer admitted to wanting me, he would say, “Well, who doesn’t want you, have looked in a mirror lately?” He would only care if it bothered me. And it doesn’t seem to bother her. Speedy, you didn’t sexually harass her, you admitted that you like her. You are not a threat and she seems to know that. I’ll share a few stories of times when an employer showed interest in me. Maybe it will help, at least you can get a few laughs. I wrote them a while ago with the intention of posting them, but got distracted and never went back to it.
Thanks Lovisa, you said everything I needed to hear. My emotions are so all over the place and my imagination is working on the extremes. Its so great to have you here to keep me grounded and give me perspective. Really thank you!!!
@LE…yes, I have no intent to say anything more ever. These are all inner demons I’m dealing with now.
Now I’m off to go on a fantastic date with my wife!!!
Louisa,
Here’s what’s going against him.
IMO, Speedy’s biggest risk is if she starts to leak to the point her SO notices and pushes her.
Remember what I said in another post about SOs not being stupid or clueless? If her SO gets wind of it, he may not take it well. Some SOs take a dim view of poaching.
Speedy’s hypervigilance is heading for overdrive.
If he starts leaking, his SO may notice. I leaked to the point that my wife asked, “Is she after you?” It didn’t occur to my wife that I was after LO #4 until I disclosed to my wife 3 years after LO #4 and I said goodbye.
I was actively managing the LE and I was operating under ideal conditions.
Speedy isn’t.
You have good insight, Limerent Emeritus, but it isn’t helpful for Speedy to stew about this. He NEEDS to go on a date with Mrs. Speedwagon and put this behind him. He wasn’t poaching, he was processing his feelings.
Of course it can go south. Anything can go south. But worrying about it doesn’t help anyone.
I always enjoy your posts. Keep them coming.
You are welcome Speedy! I hope you two have fun. I am eating pizza in my bedroom because we have a house full of teenage girls and I don’t want to be around them. I think SO and I will break out some board games and hide in our bedroom from all the loud giggling.
The girls sent him on an errand and when he came back, his eyes were big and he quickly shut the door behind him. “They are so loud!” He said. “No kidding, there’s a lot of estrogen in this house, I’m not going out there.” I replied.
Enjoy your weekend!
“Remember what I said in another post about SOs not being stupid or clueless”
Well, to be fair, this was a guy who didn’t think anything was weird with me texting with her for hours on end on the weekend. If that didn’t raise an eyebrow, not sure anything now will. Lol
Also, I made a good choice for myself today. In my work (I’m in a creative field with various clients that I contract with) I need to do outings each week to manage projects. Sometimes I take an employee who is working on a certain project along.
As it happens I have an appointment set up for next Friday to do some out of office work on a project that I intend to have LO work on. LO is a 4 day a week employee and Friday is her day off but many times if something comes up on Fridays we shuffle her schedule.
In this instance I am not going to shuffle her schedule and not going to take her along. She won’t know the difference. I decided I need to stop spending alone time with her as an effort to go LC. No texting, no emailing, no alone time. I could have easily manufactured this outing with her but I chose not to. I feel good about that.
I’m proud of you, Speedy.
Lovisa, I too have a hard time saying goodbye in general much less with LO. Now I am not forthcoming to admit this, but while I didn’t in her presence there were plenty of tears on the drive home on her last day. Not many people/situations can get that response out of me but the loss of LO did.
Speedwagon, yeah the intrusive thoughts suck and I can’t imagine if I had to see LO on a regular basis if she did for sure know how I felt. I think the office I work at here being as small as it is; 5 people total at her location and 3 here where I am makes it a lax dynamic. I think most people just chalked it up as an innocent crush since I never pursued LO. And at the time I didn’t even know it was more than a crush even though it felt like something more. But I can see in other environments it might be a problem. I am hoping the best outcome for you as you continue on.
Like the song lyric “Everybody knows its true/everybody knows I’m hooked on you.”
Hooked On You by Bread
Adam, of course you cried when she left. You lost something beautiful. She brought color to your days. Who wouldn’t miss that?
How is Mrs. Adam doing? There is a resource that I want to share with you that could strengthen your relationship with Mrs. Adam. I hesitate to share it because, in the wrong hands, it can be used for bad things. I encourage you to look it over and consider going through it with Mrs. Adam.
Google “The 36 Questions That Lead to Love” and you might be able to find a free version of it. Here is a link to the one I used…
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/style/no-37-big-wedding-or-small.html
It’s from the New York Times and they might require a $1 subscription fee. If you look it up from a library, you might not have to pay the fee.
Warning to lurkers… don’t use this on your LO. It’s cruel, just don’t.
I know but it makes me feel silly. I don’t like to let my emotions out. That’s why I was able to keep together until I was alone.
I will check it out Lovisa. I did print up the resources here on the blog for the spouse of a limerent. I told my wife what they were and where they came from and left them for her to read. I don’t know if she ever has. But I was hoping it would help her understand and confront whats going on with me.
But I will take a look at your link and read it. Thank you for taking time of yours and concern for my situation. I really do appreciate all that you have done for me, and that you are always will to talk.
You are welcome. I would love to hear your thoughts about that resource, good or bad, if you feel like sharing.
Have a great weekend!
“Oh my gosh, that is beautiful! Adam, you have a way with words.”
I guess she brings out the poet in me Lovisa. Now if only I had the courage of a brave knight to actually say something like that to her ….. in that regard I was the cowardly lion.
I don’t know if I believe that you were cowardly. I suspect that you were practicing good boundaries. Clearly, you have intense feelings for a delightful woman, but you balanced that with your loyalty to Mrs. Adam. I don’t think cowardice held you back, I think it was loyalty.
Well at least subconsciously I was doing the right thing then. I usually kept my compliments to her on her work ethic or being the determined and loving mother that she was to her daughters. I suspect no one knows how hard being a single mother is until they are a single mother themselves. And it always impressed me how she was able to balance all those things in her life and still manage to have time and energy to talk to me. She definitely was a one of a kind woman. But my wife is too and I do still love her. After all she may be upset at me about this LE and LO but she’s still here by my side.
Awwwww, sweet.
“She puts on a good stable front and this week seemed all good but I am worried she is secretly distressed and will want to quit of her own accord”
LO was always very nice to me and if I annoyed her in anyway with attention she never said or hinted at it to me. But its been 7 months since she left and she has only called me (at work) one time and talked to me. Now I am getting paranoid I might at least been part of the reason she left. I’ve never asked anyone else. The other female coworker there knows LO well and might know if I asked her. But then if LO disclosed to her the reason(s) she left she might have told her not to tell me. Because she would be sweet enough not to want to hurt me if that was the case. So yeah I am stressing about that.
I can’t help much on your other front Speedwagon. LO is a very attractive young lady but I have never felt any physical/sexual urges for beyond the normal brief thoughts that enter every man’s head. I just want to be in her presence and enjoy her company.
Another random memory that I just got reminded of. I was at LO’s location to help her and her co-worker. We were discussing something that got a little heated and those two ladies went from sweet to lioness real fast. By the time I intervened and settled it and the two of the cooled down. I said “Now you two kiss and make up.” Lmao the look they both gave me was hilarious. And then LO said “You would like to see that wouldn’t you?” And gave me this look that I am certain made me blush. That’s like the only time LO was “playful”. And even then that might have just been her making a joke about a man liking to see two women kiss. Either way it is a fun memory to think about.
Adam, I am 99.9% sure that she did not leave because of you. I’m quite sure that she misses you.
She wouldn’t have announced her last day specifically to you unless she liked having you around.
I bet, if you reached out to her, she would be warm and receptive unless you caught her at a bad time and honestly she could seem distant even if it isn’t her intent. But, let’s not hurt Mrs. Adam by reaching out to LO, okay?
That’s true she did. I guess I’m just feeling insecure and trying to remember that she is getting on with her life. And that’s good. I have to keep reminding myself of that. And that she is in good hands and he will care for LO and her daughters.
And I have been very diligent in not calling or texting her. Some days it is difficult but yeah I remind myself how it would hurt my wife. This whole scenario is difficult for her too. But I think we can make it through this together.
I can’t respond to everyone but I just have to say, man there are some good threads in here. Thank you Adam, Speed, and Lovisa.
My situation remained pretty stable and ended with LO quietly sharing some personal things with me today while we were alone and it made me feel quite special. We commiserated about work and then ended the day with laughs. I’ll take that and hope the stability in both interactions and my feelings hold!
No problem, Rufio. Thanks for checking in.
I think these stories might help our LwL men understand the female perspective of romance at work. Keep in mind that I am very chill about getting hit on. In fact, I like it. Some women get angry, I don’t understand those women. I actually started typing this a while ago in response to one of Speedy’s older posts. It might seem a little out of context, sorry. Also, I didn’t really finish it.
Here goes…
One boss told me about a dream he had where he fed me strawberries and I licked his fingers. I already liked him quite a bit so I was amused by the dream, we laughed about it and moved on. No harm done. By “I liked him” I mean I just liked him. No romantic attraction, but I really enjoyed his company. If I had learned that he had romantic attraction for me, I would have felt sympathy for him and wondered if I did something wrong and how I could do better. I would have hoped that he could still be the delightful boss who I enjoyed so much. I would have been sad if his attraction to me interfered with our friendship. And I probably would think it was my fault.
Another boss tried really hard to tell me that he wanted me without saying it. I played dumb on purpose. It actually made me kinda mad, but I liked the job so I put up with it. My friend who replaced me had the same experience with him. She was more direct with him and she openly laughed about his advances when he wasn’t around. The stuff he said to her just makes me shake my head in amusement. Neither of us had romantic feelings for him, but we both liked him just fine.
I guess I was naive like Speedy’s LO at my last job. Before my oldest was born, I worked in a male-dominated industry. I loved that job! I loved the work and I loved the people! I saw the president as a father figure and all the other men as my friends. They made me laugh a lot. I would make eye-contact with any of them to asses if they were playful and if they had that spark in their eye, I would find reasons to visit their office. I loved the playful atmosphere! Fast forward a few years and one of them got brave enough to inform me about what was happening behind the scenes. They had debates about who was my favorite. They competed for my attention, hence all the laughter. They teased each other about encounters with me. Some of their wives who were so nice to me on the phone didn’t like me. I had no idea. I thought they were my friends. Even after hearing that I was somewhat of a mascot, I still think they’re my friends.
Here is the take away… listen please! [Remember, I wrote this when I was trying to persuade Speedy that his LO just saw him as a friend…]
There are different kinds of attraction. A woman can show signs of attraction when she just likes someone. You see alluring behavior because she subconsciously wants to draw you close to her. She wants you close because she likes you NOT BECAUSE SHE WANTS TO SLEEP WITH YOU (she might have those feelings too, but not likely). The eye contact might be her assessing your mood… is he playful? Does he have too much work on his plate? Wanting to play with you and wanting to sleep with you are two very different things.
I don’t know if that helps anything, but at least you all can get a laugh about the strawberries.
*assess… lol! Sorry for the typo.
I think those are great examples Lovisa. I think I understand it more than I have in a long time. Perhaps that was why I needed to meet LO. No matter how attracted to her I am I would never hurt her at this point. Unless she just came out and said it herself I would never disclose anything more than a deep respect and enjoyment of her company.
Sometimes I still feel down after interactions but knowing how I’m going to handle things takes a lot of pressure off in most aspects.
Thank you.
I think it’s important to remember that men can be equally flirtatious, jokey, friendly, touchy-feely, complimentary … and it doesn’t necessarily mean all that much. It could mean: “I like you. I’m enjoying your company. But I’m in no way taking this seriously.”
A lot of limerence — a WHOLE lot of it — is trying to read the tea leaves. And unless someone discloses or asks you out or makes a pass … you’re just aren’t going to know how they feel.
I think that also in today’s day and age old time habits like actual manners towards a woman are considered flirting. I remember when LO was going to go to lunch and it was raining so I ran to my truck got my umbrella and walked LO out to her truck and gave her my umbrella to take with her. I got teased by both male and female employees because they saw it as an ulterior motive when I would have done that for any woman because that was how I was raised.
Sometimes intentions in certain behaviors are difficult to detect and people assume what is the most obvious to them. I know one day I worked with LO I had a formal occasion halfway through the day to attend so I was dressed more formal than usual. LO said I looked handsome. Of course that comment from her was totally different than any other female coworker saying the same. In that case it was difficult to separate behavior from intention because I had a personal bias.
I guess in the end all that blathering boils down to human behavior is complicated.
Adam,
“I remember when LO was going to go to lunch and it was raining so I ran to my truck got my umbrella and walked LO out to her truck and gave her my umbrella to take with her. ”
I wouldn’t have considered that flirting. Just good manners. Now, if it was someone I was attracted to, that behavior would have made me more attracted. I love when men do chivalrous things. And chivalry is not all that common anymore. But if I wasn’t attracted, I would appreciate the gesture, but it wouldn’t generate attraction. I know you wrote you didn’t have ulterior motives. I believe you. I’m just pointing out the distinction.
“LO said I looked handsome.”
“Handsome” to me implies a bit more than “you look nice.” But, again … tea leaves. Most of the miseries on this site could be solved with just having a direct conversation with the LO. Provided the limerent accepts what the LO says. Even a half-assed, flim-flam answer is an answer. If someone isn’t being direct or confusing or sending mixed signals… that’s a no. Mixed signals usually means the person isn’t sure or there’s someone else in the picture.
Also, attraction comes in levels and degrees. A woman may be fond of a man she considers a friend and have some attraction for him, might have though about what it would be like to be with him sexually, but the attraction may not be strong enough to move the needle to a “yes, let’s do this.”
I think these examples ring very true with my LO. I am not crazy in seeing signs of attraction from her. Signs that she exhibits that my other female employees don’t exhibit. But the signs were not romantic in nature even though they mimic romantic ones.
If you remember, my LO has a husband who is…errr…less than great. I like to say that I represent the guy she wishes her husband was, but doesn’t wish I was her husband. Big difference.
All of which explains why you thought she might be receptive.
So, you disclosed in the hope of elevating the frisson to a low grade EA and possibly a PA. That’s brinksmanship.
At what point would you have said, “Enough!” and set boundaries?
What would you have done if when you disclosed, she’d smiled and said, “Let’s do this!”
If her husband isn’t so great and you think you’re the guy she wishes was her husband, you’re disclosure may have opened up the possibility that you could be some day. And, even if it’s not you, you may have got her to think about doing something about her marriage.
You gave her something to think about.
LO #4 told me that I opened up her eyes to what was going on her relationship and I hadn’t disclosed at that point. That changed the nature of the relationship. Her relationship allegedly ended when she confronted him about his cheating on her and he (allegedly) suckered punched her from behind and then knocked her down when she turned around. That’s what she said. I don’t know if any of it’s true.
If that’s true, I set the chain of events in motion that led to someone that I cared a lot about being assaulted. I don’t like that.
She told me about opening up her eyes after she’d left him. On top of it, she said she would always be grateful to me for opening up her eyes.
Most of the time disclosure is like throwing a pebble in the ocean. But, sometimes it’s not.
The elephant in the room is how your wife would handle your EA should she find out. Peoples’ views on that vary widely. My wife takes a very dim view of EAs and has a low bar of what constitutes an EA.
There was an early poster on LwL whose husband sounds like your LO’s husband. As long as they weren’t sleeping together, he didn’t care. Her spending time with her LO was time he didn’t have to spend with her.
You have to wait and see.
“If that’s true, I set the chain of events in motion that led to someone that I cared a lot about being assaulted. I don’t like that.”
I don’t think you deserve that blame, Limerent Emeritus. Also, that would be really hard. If I remember right, you pulled away because she became irresistible as a damsel in distress. Wow, it would take some serious strength to pull away in that moment. Limerence is intensified if you think LO’s SO isn’t treating them right. My LO2’s wife has no libido and he suffers in a sexless marriage. It makes me so angry! How does she justify treating him like that? I don’t understand sexless marriages; not only would I never do that to another person, I wouldn’t do it to myself. I just don’t get it and it makes me so angry. I’m sure you don’t understand the mindset of a man who hits women either. I think it would be nice if you stop blaming yourself for that assault. You really don’t deserve it.
Lovisa,
I don’t blame myself. It’s not a question of blame.
My point was that I thought what I’d been saying to LO #4 really didn’t matter and had no influence on her. She was listening to what I said to her. She published 3 of my articles on her site and used one of them as the basis for a chapter in her book. It turns out I had a lot more influence on her than I realized.
Speedy changed the game. It may have more impact than he realizes. Then, again, probably not. But, if it does, he has no excuse for not seeing it coming.
It is a healthy realization I believe. I caught on as well and now know she really likes me as a friend from the things shared and said this week. The trap I’m trying to avoid now is not letting the closeness tear me apart. I had a few drinks last night and lost control of my day dreaming before bed and ended up with her in multiple dreams, lol. However, I don’t feel that bad this morning.
We are setting up one more outting for drinks before she leaves so one last pitfall to avoid any kind of disclosure but I think I can manage at this point. At worst I’ll probably cry if she starts crying like last time. Oh boy.
Hang in there Speed!
Rufio, I have no doubt that you will do great by LO during the next outing. You are in such a good frame of mind. I noticed on one of your other posts you said something about how you don’t want to hurt her. I love that about you. You really do put her wants and needs above your own. You are going to make a future Mrs. Rufio very happy if you choose to go down that path.
LO3 and I have become a little too flirty. I’m thinking about ways to scale it back… maybe I could change the subject? Should I jump into a different subject and minimize my attention to flirty correspondence?
What’s flirty look like for you?
Great question. He commented on a picture of me…
“Your legs…your arms…your… Gosh [Lovisa] so so awakening!”
And on another picture,
“…I can’t stop checking you out.”
And my favorite
“[you have] such a contagiously beautiful smile.”
Stuff like that. I’m guilty of it, too. I’m kinda afraid to admit to my flirty comments because other women will throw stones at me.
Since he decided to become distant about two weeks ago, the frequency of communication increased and we became quite flirty. I don’t know what to make of it. But it’s fine, we will go back to appropriate I just have to figure out how to do it without creating uncertainty in him.
Yeah, I think that kind of talk doesn’t sit right with me because it feels like he’s pushing boundaries of friendship and laying the groundwork for a PA.
Can you tell him you are not comfortable with sexually charged comments. That kind of talk should be reserved for SO only.
I would pull back too.
Thanks, that helps. I’ll do that.
Maria
I really would do that for any woman but I can see your point since it was LO. Funny thing is it kinda annoyed her because she’s not a “lady” lady. She’s very much a tomboy and being treated that way annoys her lol but I can’t help it. I still do the same with momma. I walk her under an umbrella, open doors, and pull out chairs. I do that for the ladies I care about not because I am trying to say they cant do it themselves but because I want to show them I value and respect them.
Yeah I think she was more commenting on the fact that I took effort to dress for the needed occasion. But pardon me if that doesnt go right to my head. For you younger ladies, a comment like that goes to straight to an old man like me’s head. I dont get comments like that much.
I tried to help her as best as I could with the issues she I had when I first met her. I wanted to rescue her and that was a hard tide to subside. My wife says I have a rescue complex when it comes to women in peril. So that might have been some of it too. Either way she doesnt need me anymore. 🙁
Adam,
“For you younger ladies, a comment like that goes to straight to an old man like man’s head.”
I’m done.
I dont understand your response Maria but I hope that my comment didnt offend you.
You’re like almost every man on here. Your LO is younger. It’s such a cliche. I’m middle-aged. Reading this site (which maybe I shouldn’t, but it’s probably a fairly accurate representation of the male mind, no?) has completely soured me on the idea of marriage. Last thing I’d want is to be married to someone who’s mooning over a much younger woman. If that’s what you really want, go for it, but don’t keep me hanging around and in the dark about it because the possibility of anything happening with the LO is low or uncertain.
Hey Sister, you are in a lot of pain. I wish I could pull you aside so just the two of us could talk. I wish I could give you a big hug and just listen to what’s on your mind.
Age has nothing to do with keeping a man’s interest. Men like women for how the woman makes them feel. We color their gray world. I am 1 year younger than Adam and I have no doubt he would show me the same sweet chivalry that he used on his LO. Why? Because I am receptive to it. He senses that his actions delight me. He loves making women happy…ALL MEN LOVE TO MAKE WOMEN HAPPY.
Marcia, I am so glad you are here. You bring interesting and helpful information to the conversation. I have learned a lot from you. I want to offer you something that you might like. Will you check out Alison Armstrong’s work about understanding men? She has a lot of interviews on YouTube so you don’t even have to buy anything. I love her stuff!
And, let’s address the fact that Rufio, Speedy, and Adam currently have younger LOs. It makes sense because these boys are hard wired to produce offspring, it is at the core of all of us. You and I are nearing an age where we can’t produce babies anymore (btw, a lack of fertility is attractive to many men our age). Of course the younger, fertile ladies catch their eye. But that initial spark doesn’t keep them coming back. They have feelings for these women because they love her laugh and how she looks at them. Adam’s masculine instincts were awakened by his LO: he could do nice things for her and her kids (provide), he had his eye on that boy who dated LO’s daughter and on LO’s new SO (protect), he would love to be in the role of LO’s new SO and be the man in her life and her daughters’ lives (preside). His LO woke up his instincts and made him feel alive. Adam was designed to do those things (in my opinion, he was designed to do those things by an all-knowing Creator). His spirit saw an opportunity to be what he was created to be and it woke him up. I think it’s beautiful. I also think there is a way for Adam to have an awakening with Mrs. Adam, but I don’t know how yet. I’m hoping he discovers it because it is obvious that he loves her and he wants to do right by her.
We aren’t past our prime, Marcia, our stories are just getting started.
@ Marcia
My next biggest crush I currently have is for a woman 2 years older than me. She could easily be an LO if she ever showed attraction towards me. Objectively speaking, she is not even all that attractive, but something about her is very sexy to me. Don’t assume so much.
Lovisa,
“We aren’t past our prime, Marcia, our stories are just getting started.”
Your story isn’t over. But your time in the sun as a woman will come to an end at some point. It just does. I’m not sure who to blame. Maybe your Creator? He really did a number on older women, no?
I mean, everyone’s time in the sun comes to an end. It just seems to last a bit longer for men because society values providership in them. Not all women value that in men, but a good number do.
But it is what it is. There’s not much you can do about it.
I respectfully disagree. I will never stop shining. As long as there is life in these bones I can listen, smile, validate, comfort and care. Because what is a woman’s role? We are nurturers. Everyone needs nurturing. Age has nothing to do with it either. Watch a 2-year-old girl with her baby dolls or an elderly woman in a care center serving her roommate. We are nurturers and that is what colors men’s lives. Age really doesn’t matter. And, yes, my creator put the nurturing instinct in women, too.
Lovisa,
I’m not talking about your ability to nurture. I’m talking about the ability to attract men on a purely visceral level.
Ah, I’ll weigh in on this because it is one of my pet interests. I went to read David Buss, and it helped me put a lot of this limerence stuff into a different framework. It helped me feel even more like what is happening to me is part of our human hardwiring, which was good to understand, first so as to not blame (myself, or others), but also to help me get clear in my mind what is biological, and what is intentional. Which really helped me to figure out what course I preferred to take in my life.
The centrality of fertility and the raising of off-spring in our sexual preferences is usually unconscious, but undisputable. This made me realize that the default of men being physically attracted to young, fertile women is no more blame-worthy than women being attracted to men who are good providers for their long-term mate, and (interestingly) more impressive physical specimens for short-term affairs (I believe it is the V-shaped torso, height, and something else … good teeth?) I believe this is so that women maximize their ability to get good genetic material, yet ensure any children born are provided for. Women don’t get a free pass in terms of their basic attractions too (wait till you hear how they tend to set up other men as their “back ups” should their primary relationships fail).
Okay, so that is the basic, “visceral” level attraction Marcia is talking about. It is innately biological. Now consider that limerence as a mechanism for pair-bonding (for the sake of reproduction), it makes perfect sense that even if your actual preference may include many characteristics OTHER than these physical markers, anyone who becomes an LO is very likely (not always, but much more often than not) to be someone who fits in the mold of what suits your evolutionary profile. So for men, fertile women. Who will tend to be younger than them IF the men are older (and I hate to say this, if their SO is older). And for women, guess what, also younger LOs. I don’t hear many middle-aged female limerents here saying, ooh, my LO is this older guy in his 60s or 70s, I just love his wrinkles. So, for women, I would hazard a guess that if they are single (or single with children), their taste in LOs would trend towards the “provider” types (age less important, more the usual markers of providership like status or money or power, but I even think married male LOs would be particularly appealing, because those have been “proven” to be successful providers), and if those women have an SO already, their LOs will be younger, hotter guys (male fertility does not drop as precipitously, but begins to decline after 35).
So, the middle aged men here have as much to complain about as the middle aged women. Marcia’s complaint about men having younger LOs, could as easily be uttered by a man. In fact, in addition to that, I would say most middle aged men could complain that most women only want them for their money. Supposedly, women mind men being poor far more than men mind women being poor. And nowadays, with women being so highly educated and sometimes bringing in the big bucks, guess what, those women ALSO want men who earn more than they do. The pressure on the men is real and escalating. Now if they do not earn A LOT, they could potentially be just not considered by a woman as a partner, except for a roll in the hay for their genetic material. While one might say, lucky them, I disagree. I think men want meaningful, loving relationships as much as women do, and they too are being discounted evolutionarily.
Now, that is the “visceral” level of attraction Marcia mentioned, but one thing about us humans is that we can override those biological preferences, and often do. I am particular struck by how many of our friends here with younger LOs say they are normally attracted to women their age or older even. It is VERY interesting then that their LOs have tended to be younger AND probably possess other attractive characteristics that appeal specifically to a particular male limerent. I think although to their minds their LOs youth is immaterial, on an evolutionary level, it is not, not when it is limerence, not when it is the drive to pair bond.
I also mostly see youth and wealth as the main currency of power (I actually realized this when I was in my 20s, when women are at the height of their powers). Either of those is valued, but they are not equally weighted between the genders, youth being more valuable in women and wealth being more valuable in men. The theory is that people choose partners of about “equal mate value”. So, the older, wealthy guy, with the younger woman are actually getting an equal deal. But what of the older, not-so-wealthy guy? (the younger women may not want to trade their coin for that). What of the younger, poor guy? (he might not get the younger women either, unless they assess him as having good provider-potential, but if he works at it, he’ll age into a far more desirable partner). I actually think, a pretty good deal could be struck between a younger poorer guy and a richer older woman, but at some point, if the guy’s earnings go up, she is going to have less to trade with and risk the danger of being discarded.
And please, take this all with a grain of salt. We all are the same to some extent until we are not. And we are all more than our evolutionary destiny.
Wow, Limmy! Thank you!
Haha, THANK YOU for having the patience to read that, Lovisa! It took me awhile to write. I love speculating and thinking about the implications of all these observations. It is NEVER as simple as what we think.
I have also been thinking it will be so interesting to see how as our society changes, these innate biological preferences could change, or be over-ridden in predictable ways.
For example, I think for this new generation, the “two people of about the same age get married and have kids” default is just not working out.
Because of the cost of living, many young people are choosing not to have children. Or if they have them, they have them later when they have had time to gather resources.
Which means, it will be more likely when women start hearing their biological clocks and urgently want to have children, they will no longer look to their peer group (cos they are too poor to provide for a family around age 30), but will look to older men. I am guessing slightly bigger age gaps between breeding couples will be the norm.
So then we have a bunch of younger men who don’t have a large pool of women their own age. But, no problem. These guys DON’T actually want to have kids too – they are still working on their careers so they become the type of guy who can provide for kids, but later. In fact, women with ticking biological clocks are a bad match. What they want are women who are still attractive to them, who don’t desperately want to have kids. Who are these women? Well, I have noticed my friends divorcing in droves. They usually all come with a couple of kids. These women, especially if they are financially stable, would find slightly younger men quite a good match. They don’t need them to have a lot of money, their sex drives are more in sync (supposedly), and they are both pretty busy (him with career, her with her kids, and career if she has that too) so it is a fairly undemanding relationship.
Later on, these men could morph into men who do want kids – and THEN they will find younger, fertile women a better match, and those women will also find these financially-stable men a better fit for raising children. (Not sure what happens to the older woman at this stage? Older men? Other women?) And if these men never want kids, then it doesn’t really matter the age of the woman they are with (and there will be a subset of these).
Oh, and the fact that generally people are having children later and later means actually that men are primed to prefer older women too! I read that when a man’s primary caregiver is older, when he comes to chose his permanent mate (not the one-night-stands) he finds a closer physical match to his primary caregiver more appealing! I guess who we imprint on when we are young and tender might make a difference. So, who knows there may actually be a “visceral” attraction of younger men to older women.
I saw a few comments on the threads on this post where: people felt guilty about an age gap of 30 between themselves and their LOs; people felt ridiculous that they desired a younger person; or an older person; people thinking they could *never* be attracted to anyone that much older or younger, etc. I would actually like to see that sort of thinking to be challenged. All these “shoulds” are constructs, rules and norms that may not even make sense in the current social context, and often makes no sense at all to the heart that loves who it loves. Why in the world are people so narrow, so rigid, so inflexible, when it comes to who sleeps with who? I mean, we’re not talking about breaking a vow here – if there are no vows, what’s to stop any adult of any age loving another adult whatever their age is?
(sorry, ranting)
Anyway, just some thoughts … better to think these than ruminate over LO. By the way, I am calming down I think. I am getting into the space where, I guess so long as LO keeps safe (and I pray he will be), him being totally gone is going to make things easier for me!
Wow Limmy, you are a deep thinker. You have me pondering your ideas. So much of it rings true to me.
Miss Lovisa
A song that reminds me of LO
But if there if there is someone that makes you feel happy
Tends to your heart in the ways I have been lacking
Then who I am who I am I to stand in your way
The way that I feel
Is no longer your burdern
If there is someone that can make you feel perfect
Than who am I, who am I to stand in your way
I won’t stand in your way
Oh my gosh, Adam. There you go melting my heart again, as usual. I love it. You are a good, loving, and honorable man.
By the way, I like being elevated to “Miss Lovisa.” It makes me feel like you would get an umbrella out of your truck just to walk me to my car, and I would love every second of your kindness!
And take off your coat and pull out your chair for you, Miss Lovisa.
I love it! Thank you, Adam.
Observations from my time on LwL:
– Whatever baggage you had in your last LE will carry over into your next LE.
– You often pick up more baggage from an LE than you came in with but you rarely come out of an LE with any less baggage.
– Even if you’re not looking for trouble, you can still find it.
– Your LO may be paying more attention to what you say than you realize.
= Your logic isn’t their logic. Your agenda isn’t their agenda. Your LO’s and SO’s ideas on things like infidelity may not be the same as yours. However, they’re as entitled to their opinion as much as you are to yours.
– Even if you think that you are being crystal clear and your message can’t possibly be misconstrued, it can be misconstrued.
– The best of intentions don’t always yield good outcomes.
– Unintended consequences aren’t always unforeseen consequences. (e.g., pregnancy, STDs and unprotected sex)
– All answers are responses but not all responses are answers. Answers close questions. “I don’t know” is a perfectly valid response but it’s never an answer.
– Few people can define a “Fairy-Tale-Ending” for their LE. Fewer people can pull off their FTE.
– Limerence can compel you to make some really bad decisions but they’re still your decisions and you own them.
– Decisions can have consequences, sometimes serious ones.
– No one LE is exactly like another LE but they can be pretty close.
– Like heresy, limerence isn’t so much an error of mind as it is an error of will, albeit assisted by neurochemistry.
– Limerence may fade or it may not.
– Limerence can severely impact your life or it may have little to no impact.
– Not everybody that comes into your life is meant to stay there.
– LEs can be the catalyst for positive change but you have to catch some breaks and be smart enough to see them.
Feel free to add your own and attack at will. They’re just observations.
I would agree with much if this since being on LwL and reading many peoples stories. What stands out to me is that LE is at some level distressing and also life disruptive. If it was not, a website like this would not exist. But every LE also seems unique and can be very different depending on the factors, both internal, and external to the limerent.
My current LO is LO#3 and the first in 25 years. This LE hit me fast and completely unexpected. It has created much positive change so it’s hard for me to totally hate it, at the same time it has been so emotionally hard that I would not wish it on anyone.
But I think Dr. L has hit the nail on the head that for most limerents, purposeful living and NC or a level of LC is really the only way to truly get past it. The tricky part is that the road to getting to that point can be very winding and treacherous.
After much mess I might finally be there now. My focus now is on my own health and making right decisions for me when it comes to LO.
Have unwanted pregnancies and STDs ever happened here on LwL?? *boggled*
I don’t think so.
Limerence appears to have to contributed to several divorces, firings, and one claimed disbarrment.
DrL can answer that better.
Maybe there have been some in all the emails he sees.
The thing is I’ve dated and been attracted to many women in my “age range”. Also, while younger, my LO is not someone you would look at a picture of and think “wow she is stunning” I didn’t notice her much the first few months we worked together but once I got to know here she just shines. A truly beautiful person in the total sense. I definitely became attracted after that about 6 months in. It also isn’t just me, everyone in our friend group adores her.
It isn’t an age thing for me. It is a personal thing. I thought she filled some hole that I have inside me with her caring and understanding nature.
Maria I was raised irregardless of age to respect a lady. My LO is younger than me yes. Thats a rarity. Throughout my life Ive been more attracted to older women. Still am now. LO is an exception. Her age has nothing to do with how she captivates me. If she asked Id slaughter the whole world at her whim.
Because of her as a person my limerence blossoms. My glimmer is a rose budding. The sun that shines on the entire planet. What brightens the depths of the most depressing darkness. She is the light.
Marcia’s comments really did a number on me. Before she directed her pain at Adam, I felt a sense of community here. I felt accepted despite my obvious flaws. I was learning a lot about the male perspective. We had a good flow going, or so I thought we did.
But now I am sad. Marcia is clearly hurt and lashing out. I am sad that the real person behind the internet name “Marcia” believes that she is obsolete because of her age. I know that’s not true, but I don’t know how to help her see it. That makes me sad.
I feel like some awesome men were put in an uncomfortable position, too. You boys felt safe to be vulnerable here, but now? I don’t know if you’ll feel safe here anymore.
If this is the end of the magic, well, thanks guys. I learned a lot from you and I think highly of you.
Adam, you did not deserve that. Neither did the rest of you.
Marcia is free to express how she feels. All of us should here on this blog. I understand having limerence for a younger woman might make a woman, my wife, feel inadequate. But for me personally age is irrelevant to a point. And I would ask most 40 something women how they’d react to a genuine hit from some 20 something buff guy?
Either way LO being 15 years younger than me means little to do with being infatuated with the wonderful woman she is just like Miss Lovisa.
*Just like I might could with Miss Lovisa.
Aww, Adam you have a way of smoothing things over. Thank you so much. I feel much better.
“And I would ask most 40 something women how they’d react to a genuine hit from some 20 something buff guy?”
I would be amused, to be honest. Not in a “laughing at him” way … but in a chuckling, “why isn’t he hitting on women his own age” way. I’d wonder why the women his own age weren’t responding or assume he wanted to see what it was like to be with an older woman for a night.
I would take it well …. take it well if that happened to my wife. In fact I would take it as a compliment that a younger man noticed my wife. As long as she gets in bed with me each night its not an issue.
And Ive said before outside of LO even at my age (and when I was younger) older women have always appealed to me than women my age at the time.
Well, I speak from personal experience. I hooked up with an older man once when I was in my early 20s. He was 40. I wanted to see if older men had different techniques, followed a different script sexually. I wasn’t particularly interested in him, per se. Which isn’t to say I’ve never found older men appealing, but it’s rare. It’s usually guys right around my age. Yes, even at my age now.
“older women have always appealed to me than women my age at the time.”
What do you mean by “older”? How much older? I don’t really consider 5 or 10 years that big of a deal and don’t really consider that “older,” but much more than that, and you’re running into not having as much in common, not having a frame of reference, being in different phases of life.
So if your LO is 15 to 20 years older than you, I’m impressed. 🙂
Very interesting thread. I’ll stay out of it. I like that you two are having a good back and forth. Thank you.
Adam,
I agree with you that your LO being 15 years younger may have little to do with being attracted to her but it brings a lot of practical considerations into play.
LO #4 is 15 years younger than I am. It’s hard to accept that a 50yr old woman may be out of my range as too young but it’s a logistical consideration that would come into play should I ever become available and successfully re-engage her. We’re at different places in our lives.
All my other LOs’ ages were within a year or two of me, two younger, one older. My wife is 9 years younger than I am. I thought long and hard about that before I asked her to marry me. But, it’s worked for us.
If any woman young enough to be my daughter expressed a romantic interest in me, regardless of my marital status, I’d wonder why. I’d be far less flattered than cautious. Honestly, my thought would be the woman has problems or she wants something from me.
I’m not all that special. As far as desirability goes, I’d like to think I’m in the first standard deviation to the right of the mean but I can live with being in the first standard deviation to the left.
True story:
In my late 50s, I was detailed to a different group in my organization for 6 months. As it turned out, several of my co-workers were attractive young women in their early 30s. In an odd coincidence, we all had birthdays within a day or two of each other. We decided to have a group lunch. I was the only rooster in the henhouse. Four of them, one of me.
We asked the waitress to take a picture. It was great. I showed it to a friend who asked if my wife had any problems with me hanging out with those young women. My response to him was,
“No, it’s their mothers that [name] would have a problem with me hanging out with.”
One day, one of the mothers was visiting work and I was introduced to her. I was right, my wife would not want me hanging around with that woman.
“If any woman young enough to be my daughter expressed a romantic interest in me, regardless of my marital status, I’d wonder why. I’d be far less flattered than cautious. Honestly, my thought would be the woman has problems or she wants something from me.”
I would think the same thing. Tbh, I’d wonder if they were hitting me because they thought I was lower hanging fruit. I went to a bar a few months ago and a very young guy was hitting on me. He was very drunk and the bar was about to close. You get where I’m going with this. My friends were encouraging me. I’m not sure why.
For an old and truly sexist view:
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/98062-in-all-your-amours-you-should-prefer-old-women-to
Kind of ironic … his writing that … when he himself was no hunk.
Marcia,
Very ironic.
Well in my 20’s (I was a late bloomer) when I started taking an interest in women it was my mother’s friends. Or my friends’ mothers. I knew something wasn’t right with me. Sure I dated within my age group to save face but it wasnt what I wanted. I had no interest in girls. I was interested in women. My first real hard crush (possibly my first limerence) was a 50 something woman from church when i was 21 years old.
Idk. That’s really a lot older. Have you thought about why?
I did have a big crush on a man in his mid- to late 40s when I was about 18 or 20. But he was like a male version of Marilyn Monroe. He was really sexy. Everybody was into him. So I’m not sure he counts.
I have a lot of feminine authority issues due to the fact my father worked and my mother didnt until I was a senior in high school and so all my delinquent behavior was reprimanded by mother no questions asked. So I guess that translated into viewing older women differently than most men my age would have at that age.
But can you see how that might not be see as all that flattering for older women? I mean, your reason for being into them.
Now that we are discussing this topic, I do remember having a very brief, very mild crush — it went away practically overnight– on my friend’s dad when I was about 17. But I think that was because he was the kind of dad I wanted my father to be. So if he knew that was the reason for my interest, would my interest have been appealing? I’m not implying he did anything to encourage me. But let’s say I was 20 instead of 17 since 17 is under age.
Marcia,
Please understand that the reason Adam, Rufio, and I have congregated in this particular blog is because we have similar LO stories. Other blogs have people with very different stories. Yes, we all happen to have younger LOs from the workplace. That is why we found each other here and Lovisa and L.E. have been very kind to help us through it in real time. But I have read stories on LwL where the LO is an older female boss to a younger male as well and then countless similar age stories.
As I stated somewhere above, my next biggest crush in life right this moment is a woman that is 2 years older than me in her early 50s. I’ve crushed on this woman for over 15 years. If this woman contacted me today confessing her love for me, I would be in big trouble and current LO would be immediately kicked to the curb and I am certain LO#4 would be named.
I mean, ok. But aren’t you married? So an LO and a crush?
I think limerence is an elaborate psychological escape. It’s not real. It’s something to occupy the mind. It took me a heck of a long time to figure that out.
Yes, I’m married but I always have had crushes. Always. Two, maybe three at any given time. Women whom I have a strong sexual attraction to AND also an attraction to who they are as a person. But I was never limerent for them. I barely fantasize over them and I never have intrusive or depressive thoughts about them.
If I am being honest, I feel on a psychological romantic level I struggle with the idea of monogamy. I love my wife, she is fantastic, but I have always had/have romantic feelings for many woman. None of this ever rises to LE level though…until now with my LO. She’s different and it has thrown me upside down.
“If I am being honest, I feel on a psychological romantic level I struggle with the idea of monogamy. I love my wife, she is fantastic, but I have always had/have romantic feelings for many woman. ”
Does your wife know that?
It’s very different for me. I don’t know how your wife experiences things, but I’m not attracted to that many men. Maybe one. Tops, two, at any given time. So I guess I could see having an SO for a while and years later … some big crush/limerence. However you want to define it. But that would be rare. So there would be hot eye candy, which is just something to look at and would not make a dent. People I may enjoy interacting with/flirting with but who I would not take seriously, who would not make a dent. There’d the SO. And then (but I wouldn’t be looking for it) an LO or big crush. Maybe.
I mention all this because .. given the disparity … if I were your wife, I want to know how differently you experience things.
Speedy, what you struggle with is normal. Of course you still notice other women, but you don’t act on it because you are loyal to your wife, at least you try to be loyal. You are not perfect, but really trying. Maybe before we married our SOs, we all believed that we would be narrowly focused on our SO for the rest of our lives. That doesn’t seem to be realistic. Before I married, my SO asked me to never fake a…um how do I say this politely?…never fake a climax. That was a challenge early on. We were figuring out each other’s bodies as well as figuring out our own. I wasn’t climaxing and my adorable new hubby was frustrated and hurt. He felt like he was doing something wrong, I didn’t like disappointing him. I was tempted to fake it just to relieve his frustration, but I couldn’t go back on my promise. I heard a woman on talk radio say that women have to figure out what fantasies arouse them and then pursue those fantasies in their mind with their lover and then they could climax. I felt guilty about it, but I knew it would only be in my head and it might help me and SO connect better and hopefully he wouldn’t feel like he was disappointing me. So I figured out what fantasies turn me on, started playing through those thoughts when my hubby was pleasuring me and… it worked. Yay. So that’s what I do. We are very active in the bedroom even after 24 years of marriage. I’m mentally present when I pleasure my SO, but I get lost in a fantasy when he pleasures me. I haven’t told him and I probably never will, but hopefully it wouldn’t be hurtful to him if he knew.
Along those lines, I don’t care if he notices or thinks about other women. As long as he behaves appropriately towards other women and directs his sexual energy towards me, he can think about whatever he wants as far as I’m concerned. And if he developed limerence for a younger woman at work… hmmm, I think it could make me feel obsolete because of my age, I don’t know for sure, but I hope I would be patient and compassionate about it. Honestly, I think I would only really get upset if I felt like I lost something because of his interest in the other woman. Like if he was less affectionate or neglected his responsibilities too much. Then it might bother me. It would also bother me if he did something stupid at work that tarnished his reputation or hurt someone else. As long it was just in his head and not causing problems with his behavior, I wouldn’t care. And if he suddenly lost weight and became more optimistic… I’d probably high-five the woman who inspired that behavior.
Speedy, I love it when you open up and talk about the hard stuff. I am learning so much from you. I would love to hear how the men would respond if they learned that their wife navigated marital relationships in the same way that I navigate mine. Maybe I am doing something right, maybe I need a wake up call. I’ve never had the opportunity to talk to anyone about something so personal.
I thought that was pretty much known and is why it is often linked to past trauma, attachment styles, etc. I’ve said several times here that I think part of my LE is I have big time regrets about how I lived my 20’s and early 30’s. LO is the type of girl I should have paid attention to. The type of girl I should have married.
I’ll date myself by saying I spent to much time looking for Britney Spears and missed so much beauty and warmth that was right in front of my face. Now old me just suffers from the thoughts of it. I wasted my time and never got married or started a family. I have to find a way to deal with it that is healthy though.
Rufio, I don’t think that ship has sailed away without you. There are plenty of lovely, single women.
Thanks for sharing your experience. It’s interesting that we are all here suffering from the same ailment even though we took different paths to get here.
I have to share a funny dream I had last night that relates to my current situation.
I had a dream that 2 of my female employees (both not LO) were going to come to my home to have dinner with the wife and I. These employees have actually done that before so this was a reflection of a real life event.
We have some windows by our front door that look into a great room kitchen/living area. For some reason I was naked and I went to check the windows and they were there on the front porch looking in. I was very embarrassed about my nudity and tried to hide really quick. I could see them still peeking in the windows and was worried they saw me.
I yelled for them to hold on and made it down to my closet to throw some clothes on but had a hard time getting clothes out of the closet onto my body. It felt like I went through every item of clothes before I finally managed to get a Tshirt and shorts on to go open the door. The whole time I kept yelling to hold on.
My decipher…the females from the office actually represent LO. My nudity out in the open for them to see was my messy disclosure to LO. My struggle to get clothes on so I could simply answer the door is my struggled attempt to smooth over the disclosure and bring things back normal with LO.
Thoughts?
My thought…
The last paragraph is pretty close. I see things a little differently. I think the focus on your LO is off. It’s something else.
It sounds like you’re not as confident that things at work are completely dealt with as you wish they were.
Was the Busybody one of the women on the porch or two of her allies?
Whomever, they represent threats. Your yelling for them to hold on and the struggle to cover up is that you’re trying to buy time to cover your naked ass while you figure out a solution that you can implement. That you tried every piece of clothing in your closet and only managed a T-shirt and shorts implies you don’t have a solution appropriate for the occasion to implement. It also implies a very casual attitude to the occasion.
But, what do I know? I didn’t actually take the “Magic, Mysticism, and Power” class in college, but I did meet the professor and read his book.
Your subconscious is telling you something, you should listen to it.
I agree with you more in depth analysis. Right now everything is being held together by scotch tape and I have no solutions other than time and stable routine.
Yes, the OE was one of the employees there in the dream. OE and my LO had coffee this week and hashed out their issues. LO told me it went really well and she has peace about it. That is positive.
But, as an aside, something weird happened last night. A couple days ago when LO told me over text that the meeting with her and OE was really good, and that OE had apologized, I texted back that I was glad and thought she deserved an apology. LO gave a heart emoji to that specific text of mine. I thought nothing of it and the texting stopped with that brief exchange. Well, 2.5 days later I get a text notification…she unhearted that comment. I hope it is a simple explanation like not wanting to lead me on thru texting and not an indication of a more complex issue.
I should say, the issue she may have is not with my response but with her sending me a heart emoji. After a couple days, she may think that is too emotionally charged emoji.
Check out this: https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-dreams/#comment-9518
The whole Limerence Dreams article is pretty entertaining.
You have me laughing, Speedwagon. I agree with your interpretation of the dream.
Clip of the Thread: “Apollo 13” (1995)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_I1xmpGEDc
Failure was not an option and they pulled it off.
Don’t panic.
Mark Twain had some ideas related to some of the comments in this post:
https://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/twain/letearth.htm
“Letters From The Earth” is great but you can just skip to Letter VIII.
Dear friends,
I’m a little sad that I’m back so soon. It was genuinely wonderful while the lack of limerence lasted, but I was derailed by something totally unexpected. LO told me that he had enlisted. This affected me very deeply. The thought of him being hurt or dying – I just cried and cried. 🙁 It was so bad that my SO even noticed my misery, and I have had (for the first time really) had to actually lie about why I have been crying. The LE had never bled into my life quite so obviously before. I am a little bitter it has now, when it is basically over (apart from this unexpected derailment).
I still have no expectations of LO, which I think means I still accept that he is not mine to love – or lose. So, I’m not waiting with a bated breath or fantasizing about a future with him (thank goodness) but I do feel that odd tension which is how I characterize the LE in this late stage. It’s a little hard to concentrate on my chosen focus (my purposeful life) which had been forefront of my mind for a couple of weeks. But I have faith I will get back there.
I just wanted to tell you guys.
On a different note: SO MUCH has happened to all of you! Wow. I might weigh in on some, because I am so interested in all of you and your stories.
Sorry to hear it.
It was a double whammy. Not only are you worried about his safety and well being, his enlisting is another sign your not really a part of his life.
For limerents, accepting that often takes awhile and comes with disenfranchised grief.
The frosting on that cake is the guilt that comes from lying to the one person who you can’t really share it with, your SO.
If you can control your leakage, you’ll get through this.
@ Limerent Emeritus
Every single word you say here is true, LE.
I think I will get through this. But nothing about this is easy.
Limmy, when I saw your name on the recent posts list, I got excited, “Limmy is back!” Then it dawned on me that you being back means something isn’t going well. The excitement dissipated quickly. I wish you were here for a positive update or just a check in. I’m sorry you are struggling, but it’s good to hear from you either way.
Your reaction makes sense. That is really hard. I experience similar unsettling realizations with my LOs, too. I think it shows that we care about them. My current LO does trail running and I am aware of the dangers involved that sport. I recently trained him on a navigation tool because it makes me feel a little better just knowing that he has an extra tool to help him if he gets in trouble. I understand the “I don’t want anything bad to happen to my LO” feeling. And the follow up feeling hurts too, “No one would tell me if he was hurt.”
Hang in there, Limmy. And welcome back!
Oh and you need to read what Adam said about God putting sunshine in his LO. It’s adorable! You’ll love it!
@Lovisa
Thank you for being happy AND unhappy about me being back. It is such a lovely, classic Lovisa response, it made me smile.
Yes, you reaction about keeping safe on trail running exactly. Also about not being told if he was hurt.
I will go hunt up Adam’s sunshine comment, it sounds really sweet. Maybe we all should have a, “this is how I see my LO thread”. Afterall, it probably reveals (to ourselves even) what it is that we project onto LO that is missing from our own lives that we so desperately want that it pushed us into a LE.
Limmy, thank you for your kind response.
That is a great idea! I am pondering how I see my LOs…
LO1 was smart and seductive
LO2 also smart and needed to be rescued
LO3 soothing and strong
All three have excellent leadership skills
All three narrowly focused their attention on me. I think this is what draws me in: the attention.
I played tag with my daughters, nephews and nieces tonight. They love being chased! It excites them. I wonder if I am so juvenile that I just love being chased. Maybe that’s why I become limerent. I love the feeling of a man’s attention fully focused on me. Ugh, I should talk to a therapist about this.
Thanks for asking such a helpful question.
Lovisa, you are a joy. “I played tag with my daughters, nephews and nieces tonight. They love being chased! It excites them. I wonder if I am so juvenile that I just love being chased. Maybe that’s why I become limerent.” Haha, I was just charmed.
“I love the feeling of a man’s attention fully focused on me.”
Oh, don’t we all. Nothing that makes a woman feel more alive.
Oh Limmy, thanks for the validation. I was thinking I need to see a therapist about my love of a man’s focused attention, then it hit me, “What woman wouldn’t love that? Maybe I’m not broken, maybe I’m normal.”
It helps to hear it from you.
I am sorry to hear Limmy. That is difficult news in general when it is someone we care about. But there is a level of bravery that most people will understand when it comes to people that choose to enlist their service to this country in the military. Your SO is indeed a brave person and I grateful for his choice. He has gone above and beyond and we are grateful for his sacrifice.
God my drunk typing ….
*most people will never understand
*LO
@Adam
Thanks for this, Adam. I am so touched that you feel that way about LO’s action of service. I’m going to tell you (and everyone here by extension, but really I feel moved to share this because of what you said) part of why perhaps this enlistment news was so difficult.
When LO first told me he was thinking about enlisting (ages ago; now he has actually enlisted), I saw this look in his eyes, when he talked of laying his body on the line. He was staring sacrifice right in the face. This was not a trivial decision. He knew he could die. I felt … I don’t know, that swelling of something akin to admiration and gratitude and the feeling you would get if you gazed upon something incredibly precious. I suspect that was very much a part of me falling for him, because the next day I wept over him for the first day. I had to park my car in the corner of a deserted carpark and just cried and cried. I was like, this is insane, you haven’t known this person for even a month, and now the thought of him dying has you crying uncontrollably? It was perhaps for me, the moment I realized this was not a run-of-the-mill kind of attraction. I was … overwhelmed. Which is what limerence is.
So now he’s gone and done it. Perhaps it was inevitable, because of this history that this news was always going to shake me.
One of the things I’ve learned in 45 years of life and 23 years of marriage is you choose who you want to love for the rest of you life but you don’t choose who you will love for life. And that is absolute torture.
Miss Lovisa, why do I love SO and LO both at the same time? Disclamier: Im really drubk.
Oh gosh Adam! Hang in there! Lovisa will be here soon, but until then, keep yourself safe. Are you in a safe spot??
Im at home Im safe. I love her you know. But why both?
I can tell you are in such pain. I feel for you, I really do.
I think … maybe we are taught an idea that we can only love one. Our society is set up to support that. But the heart is far more complex and beautiful and has its own way of making itself known.
The thing is we made a promise. To keep that means that if we love others, we need to forsake them. This rends our heart into two, it wants who it wants. Both sometimes.
I can tell you, I’ve wondered sometimes. No more dopamine hits, no more norepinephrine spikes. I’ve eradicated them all. And yet. What is this that is left? I am terrified to even think the L word. But if it is love, in its purest form, I can love and let go of the need to possess.
The messages we get are sometimes so contradictory. The world could do with more love, nothing is more important than love, love is the most beautiful thing, etc. but there is a caveat of who you can and cannot love.
Thank you, Limmy. You are a kind woman.
Sorry Adam, Sundays can be quite busy for me.
Why do you love both? Because you have an abundance of love in your heart. You can love a lot of people. The important part is that you stay true to your vows.
Isn’t it great to have Limmy back?
Miss Lovisa good to see you. I understand you have other obligations. It was a bad day yesterday trying to keep LO out of my head and as you can see I reached for my unhealthy coping mechanism.
And yes it was nice to get to talk to Limmy. Her words were very helpful and soothing. They definitely helped me get through the day and night.
But I must apologize to all for my behavior last night. I shall try to maintain sober next time I post after work.
I also just had a realization last night as I was trying to go to sleep; LO’s name is the one of two names both my wife and I were deciding on for both times she was pregnant if we had a girl. Earlier my wife and I were talking about a family member of hers that had a baby girl and we got to talking about names and suddenly hours later as I was trying to sleep I remembered that. Maybe that’s another reason I fell hard for her. LO has one of my favorite female names.
Thanks for the apology, Adam. It’s no problem at all. You needed a friend, you did the right thing when you reached out, and Limmy was there. I’m glad she was online yesterday. I had my church obligations and then I took my 9-year-old niece running. She is such a tough girl! It was below freezing and she never complained.
I’m glad you reached out last night. Drunk or sober… whatever, I’m just glad you reached out. It is interesting that I feel like we are sharing our darkest sides in this community. It’s kind of nice to be less than perfect and still accepted by other people.
Oh and one more thing, maybe LO’s name is relevant but I doubt it. I think she is a delightful lady. Probably if she had a terrible name like… I don’t know… Who-gamma-goo, you would be saying stuff like, “Isn’t Who-gamma-goo the prettiest name you ever heard?”
Speaking of LO names…My LO’s name is the same as my closest brother’s name and it kinda bugs me. I don’t like associating my brothers’ names with sexual feelings. Ewe! Many times, I have considered asking LO if I could use his middle name which just happens to be my goldfish’s name, I can handle that. What I do instead is if I’m really feeling drawn to him, I use his full name. It helps lower the ewe feeling.
Am so glad to hear I managed to help a bit, Adam. You are a good man, really you are, I can tell.
I need a purpose in my life. I’m not sure if it is because it is Monday or what, but as I sit here waiting to see if I’ll interact with LO today everything outside of her feels so colorless.
I don’t feel bad really, at least not like the strong grasp of the LE a few weeks back. However, I do feel a bit melancholy as if everything is ephemeral, untouchable.
Anyway, short start of the week thought train.
Don’t wait and see…go initiate a brief interaction with her right now. It will ease your mind. Your days with her are numbered, take control of them.
It feels like you are ready to find someone to share life with. After LO leaves throw purpose into that. Get excited about it and I bet you find someone in 2023. Be optimistic.
I second that! Speedwagon is right, Rufio.
Also, maybe a hobby or volunteer work. I work with abused and neglected children. It is called being a CASA where I live. You might have a program like that in your area. Something that these kids lack is the presence of a stable, healthy male. Just a thought.
Happy Monday everyone!
Ok ok ok, had a good talk. You were right. Going to be a busy week with some exec level people on campus so might not have a lot of chances. Glad I got that one in.
Hey rufio, hang in there. I’ve actually felt these colorless, grey moments around the time limerence was going from super-intense to less intense. And interestingly enough, when I felt I was over it (until this set back brought me back) EVEN when I was totally immersed in my purposeful life (and loving it), a spark was missing in that part which I think is the part of us which is lit up by romance, specifically. So, I think purpose is very very good for transferring rumination to something productive and decreasing intrusive thoughts (the best part by far) and creating a barometer from which to make decisions, but it does not fill that part which longs for romance, if that is your thing.]
Still, don’t get me wrong, I would take it over being in LE in a heartbeat. So peaceful! So clear and purposeful. No obsessive thoughts.
Thank you for the support Limmy! I think you are right. I am just hanging tough right now. I really plan on getting into the dating market again after LO leaves because it will basically NC at that point. Right now other women just don’t seem that appealing. Also, crazy as it may sound and I think I’ve said here before I would almost feel like I was cheating(specifically emotionally) on her. It is actual insanity and makes no sense but I feel it in my gut when I’m around other women.
I’m sure it stems from us sharing intimate things about anxiety and family problems and I know she doesn’t talk to anyone else at work about it.
The intrusive thoughts are one of my biggest problems still, first thing in the morning and last thing before sleep. I will be doing something and think ” I can wait to tell X about this” or “X would think this is funny”.
I even let a piece of feeling besieged slip today as I was telling her some revelation I came to over the weekend and said “this is bad but I thought to myself I have to tell X about this”. She said, “That’s not bad!” I think I recovered by saying “well, I don’t mean bad like bad but…blah blah” and the conversation carried on.
Glad she didn’t know the full context of “bad” was I was thinking about you all weekend and I can’t wait to share things with you. =(
“ Glad she didn’t know the full context of “bad” was I was thinking about you all weekend and I can’t wait to share things with you.”
Oh Rufio, we have all been there.
Lol Miss Lovisa you are probably right. It wouldn’t matter what her name was I’d still being seeing stars. LO has told me her middle name too. Funny thing on names is when I met LO there was another woman in that office (she since quit a long time ago) that had the same name as LO. So LO went by her madian last name. So I spent a long time not knowing that what LO went by wasn’t her first name until months into working with her. When I found out though it felt weird to call her by her actual first name. So she said that it was fine if I still wanted to call her by that name. I am the only one left that calls her that. Most everyone else called her by her first name since there was no need for a distinction anymore.
I can understand your feelings about LO’s name. It would be quite difficult if LO had the same name as my sister or mother so I understand the ewe factor. Perhaps LO would like you to call him by his middle name giving you two something unique to just the two of you.
And I want to thank you and Limmy again as your words really do help me through those LE that really make the intrusive thoughts hard to take.
Oh, another thing Miss Lovisa, my wife had fell asleep on the couch Sunday morning. She had been fighting a migraine most of the night. I had gotten up to get something to drink and I walk back in the room and found myself just standing there watching her sleep. She woke up and she asked “what’s wrong?” and I just was like “nothing momma just checking on you. get some rest” and then she went back to sleep and I still stood there for another five minutes or so. Don’t what compelled me to watch her. But I think it helped.
Thanks for sharing that moment between you and Mrs. Adam. What were you thinking about? I’m just curious.
My husband still looks at me like I’m Christmas morning and I love it! I wonder how he can look at the same body for 24 years with that cute, happy goofy expression of infatuation. Seriously, I was trying to have a conversation with him the other day and he actually said, “I’m really trying to hear what you’re saying, but your body is distracting me. I know, I know, your eyes are up there, but I just can’t stop looking down there.” Lol. Adorable.
Hmmm, I wonder if your wife likes being called “Momma” by her lover. Do you put adjectives before it like, “Smoking hot Momma” or “Sexy Momma” because women love to feel sexy. Okay maybe not all women, some of them actually get offended and I don’t understand why, but I think most women want to feel desirable.
Just a thought.
I wished I could get my wife to see that about herself. This thing with LO has I think hurt her self esteem and she thinks that I want something from LO that don’t want from her. So physical intimacy of any kind has been very limited. She can wear that thing I like that she’s had for like 10 years and I am putty in her hands. But all she thinks is there is a younger prettier (even though she has never met LO) woman on my mind and I want things from her that I now longer want. When that is the furthest from the truth.
So one leaves me and the other distances me. I guess it’s what I deserve and I have to work it out.
As far as what you mentioned when your husband is distracted by you, reminds me of when my wife gets mad or upset about something and we are having a heated discussion/argument that’s when gets me all hot and bothered. Something about an angry woman turns the heat up for me, but I rarely say anything because that just makes her more mad.
She use to hate when I called her momma. I guess she’s use to it by now. And when my parents visit she can see where I get it from as my folks, in the home, always called each other “mom/dad” or one of their other pet names for each other. So it’s normal to me to call her “momma”. My other pet name for her is “sugar”.
And yeah even though things are not well now between us, and I know she’s not going to reciprocate I still tell her that I think about being with her because she still turns me on. I know it will be a long road before she comes around with intimacy so I take small steps. I came up behind when she was cooking this weekend and put my arms around her waist and kissed her neck. She didn’t say anything but she also didn’t pull away or anything. So maybe soon.
Thanks for sharing, Adam. That is helpful information.
You get turned on by angry women…lol. You would really like my sister. Angry women are actually my biggest fear. It’s really hard for me to be friends with women because I feel like they are unpredictable. I feel much safer with men. But that’s beside the point.
Did the intimacy end around the same time your limerence started? Can you help me with a time line? Include this stuff and any other big changes.
Your kids didn’t need as much parenting.
You fell for LO.
The intimacy diminished with SO.
Can you give me an idea of when these things happened and how much time was between each thing?
Only share what you are comfortable sharing, okay?
That is sweet.
Every woman I’ve ever loved that I had the opportunity to watch sleep, I’ve watched sleep.
There’s something about it that makes you love them more.
Awwww. For real? I’ve watched my kids sleep, but not my husband. Thanks for the tip!
I used to watch my oldest sleep and it brought me joy because I was so in love with her. When I watched my son sleep, I was like, “Oh thank goodness he is sleeping, we get a break. Whew!”
For real.
Sometimes, when I’d wake up, I’d roll over on my side, and just watch them, thinking how lucky I was.
People are at their most vulnerable when they sleep.
There was something about the feeling that they were there because they wanted to be and trusted me that’s indescribable.
Trust has always been a huge thing for me. For me, trust is an odd measure of my self-worth. If someone trusts me, I must be ok. It’s one of the many things that I brought out of childhood. Maybe it’s because I didn’t feel there were all that many people around me that I could trust.
Those women trusted me when they were most vulnerable.
That went sideways.
“That went sideways.” Lol, no it didn’t. You’re funny.
You remind me so much of my LO2. He’s an engineer.
“Those women trusted me when they were most vulnerable.”
Ah, Limerent Emeritus, that is your key. Based on the scenarios you described with you LOs, I think you have identified it.
I met LO for the first time in Dec 2020. I had talked to her prior on the phone when she started in May 2020. The last real abundance of intimacy was around April/May 2020. We had some sprinkles here and there when her bipolar wasn’t screwing up her libido. But in reality it has been little to nothing since early 2019. We were having some intimacy issues even before I ever met LO. Mostly due to her bipolar. And this is the longest low cycle she has had since he was diagnosed in 2009.
We had a REALLY nice Valentines Day 2020. She surprised me big time and well …. she really surprised me. It went on for about another two months and then it was back to little to none. I have learned that most times like this it’s best to let her get through and not try to make her feel guilty or anything so I just do without and give her time without harassing her. But since about June 2020 its been a desert. I have asked a few times if there is something I can do to help her but she says its the bipolar and doesn’t seem to want to make any effort for intimacy.
So for most of the rest of 2020 it was if anything self service. March 2021 was when I started working everyday at LO’s location until around the middle June. Between then and June 2022 when LO quit I would still go to her location 3-4 days a month or so. And that is when the limerence began, June/July 2021. I noticed more things about LO. Both in her personality and in her appearance. I tried to initiate more interactions with her. Still platonic and professional. She was very friendly but never more than that when talking with me.
Around Nov/Dec of 2021 was when LO started seeing the man she is with now. Though I didn’t actually know that till the beginning of 2022. She never hid it but she was never forthcoming about him. He would visit her when I was there but she strangely never introduced me even though everyone else in the building knew him by name. It seemed she was either hiding me from him, of him from me for some reason.
In August of 2021 is when my wife came at me with thinking that LO and I were having a PA. The rest of that year was unbearable. My wife was very angry and many times said very hateful things about LO that ended up in an argument because I would defend LO that she would not be the type of woman that would get involved with a married man. I didn’t know it then but LO got divorced because her ex cheated on her. The affair thing dragged on into the next year.
This is when the intimacy stopped after this accusation. We celebrated our anniversary in Oct 2021 and that was the last time we had a sexual encounter. Our anniversary came and went in 2022 and it is the first time we have ever not celebrated it in some fashion. As it felt more and more depressing the longer it went on I just stopped trying. And physical touch is very much my love language by a landslide. I even read the book.
Nov of 2021 I had heard from LO that she was very stressed and being unreasonable treated by the corporate office that she had to report to daily. I took a day off and traveled down to her location to talk to mine and her’s supervisor. And by talk I mean I told him “this shit has to stop” and I was afraid that LO was going to quit. LO didn’t know until the day before I talked our supervisor I was going to be there. I don’t think our supervisor thought I knew what I was talking about. May 24, 2022 LO called me and told me she had put in her two week notice. There was someone else here in my office and probably the only reason I could keep it together. If I would have been alone when she told me that I might have lost it. Her last day was June 3, 2022.
I got home that evening of Nov 29 2022 from talking on LO’s behalf and went home and picked up my wife and we went to eat at her favorite Mexican restaurant. This is the first time since early 2020 that we actually sat and ate a meal together. She actually asked how the conversation went about LO. She asked if I thought I got my point across so LO would stay. I told her that LO’s daughter was with her so I couldn’t talk to much about how she felt about staying since her daughter was around. My wife asked how old her daughters were. And asked about her gentleman friend. This is the one and only conversation I have had with my wife about LO that remained civil. And my wife actually called LO by her name. Usually she just refers to LO as “her” with anger in her voice. I was quite surprised she was being so nice about LO and thought maybe we are making progress.
So on June 1 I told my wife my plans to visit LO on her last on the 3rd. I invited my wife to come with me and meet LO. I told my wife, and meant it not just saying to smooth things over, that there was a lot of her that I saw in LO. But she declined to meet LO. So I took a cake and some drinks and had bought LO a few things to remember the people she worked with by. She said she was very touched by the gifts I got her and that they were very thoughtful.
Sorry … the memories are getting to me. I walked her plants to her truck that she had at her desk and she actually let me help her and hold the door open for her as she always didn’t like being treated lady-like. But she knew I liked doing those things for her just like I do my wife so she let me do them for her.
And then she drove away and I was left alone …..
*I got home that evening of Nov 29 2021
Too many dates I was bound to get one wrong lol
Lol, no problem
That is sooooooo helpful, and it makes sense! Adam, I don’t want to put my two cents in yet, because I suspect you gained a lot of insight just by revisiting those memories. Answer this question…
Is there anything else?
But, if it’s not a good time to visit painful stuff, it is okay to get back to me later. By the way, if you can do it, I’d like to have this discussion while both of us are sober. I promise not to drink if you don’t (wink).
Only other thing I can think of that could be related to it now that you say something, 20 years ago within the first three years of our marriage a female young female employee pursued me rather subtly. Enough that it was out of hand before I could fix it. My wife found out about it from texts that this gal was sending me. I was either an idiot, naive, or flattered, or all three and I let it get out of hand. There was never anything PA or anything like that. I wasn’t ever alone with her. I only saw her at work. But it was getting too familiar and of course most importantly I hurt my wife’s feelings.
This is the biggest reason why now that LO has quit any communication is going to be from her initiative. And why I never even when she worked here contacted her after work hours. Though I have contacted the other young lady that works there (and still does) with some joke or meme or something as we both have similar sense of humor. And my wife has no issue with me contacting her even outside of work hours. In fact my wife has actually talked to via speaker phone when she’s called me.
And I brought this incident up plenty of times in this disaster about LO. I told her she can be mad at me, hate me, not trust me, interrogate me, whatever. She can check my phone and all my apps and sites I go to I stay logged into. I even offered to take her to my job and let her go through my work computer. I never expected her to let this go. She may have forgiven me but I know she has never forgotten.
My issue is with how she feels about LO when she has never met LO and doesn’t know her. But my wife says that she trusts me, she just thinks if I am not having a PA that I am at least having a EA or in love with LO.
Like I said I don’t expect much kindness from her about me. But I know what LO wouldn’t even if I was trying to with her. But my wife has a very intense hate for LO and it makes me sad because I think they would get along well and that would really make me happy that the two women most important to me in life got along.
Glad you jogged my memory Miss Lovisa. It might be a bigger piece of the puzzle than I remembered. And as I have said my wife and I have discussed it. In every way she acts/reacts seems like she doesn’t trust and can’t take my word. But every time I bring it up she says she trusts me. But her actions are contrary.
One last thing on three separate occasions my wife and I have discussed legal separation if we thought we couldn’t work through this. I don’t want that but I’m stupid enough to think that this is something unforgivable in her eyes. Thankfully it’s probably been six months since the last time we did.
Adam, this is all helpful information. Guilt is eating you alive. Your guilt is disproportionate to your actions. Keep in mind who you are talking to. I’m pretty chill about this stuff but some women have zero tolerance for it. I can’t actually speak for your wife. But something is obvious… you need to forgive yourself.
More to come…
That is a lot of good information. You are good at expressing yourself and way more aware than you give yourself credit for.
You and SO have a tough situation. Have you tried counseling? I suspect your wife has her own worries and you think it’s because of your behavior towards LO and the woman from a long time ago, but you could be wrong. It could be something else.
A few thoughts about your timeline…
The limerence started in July 2021 and your wife accused you of a PA in August of 2021. I suspect you don’t hide your limerence well. She saw something in your behavior and she was right to say something. True that she was harsh, but bringing it to your attention was the right thing to do.
It sounds like there were problems in your marriage before you met LO. Limerence can actually cause us to rewrite history. It sounds like that isn’t the case for you.
It also sounds like you are lacking intimacy and LO filled that void. Your limerence makes sense.
Now… we just need to find a way for you and your wife to reconnect. Hmmmm. I would guess that her intimacy needs aren’t getting met either… hmmm
Have either of you brought up counseling?
2 weeks past disclosure now and LO seems…OK maybe??? She is being hard to read today. She came in and her normal disposition towards me seems a little more mellow I guess. Like there is a lot going on in her head that she is trying to make sense of and she doesn’t quite know how to act around me. I can understand that and I’m giving her a lot of space to just be.
On the other hand, of her own accord, she brought up the outing I need to do Friday and she wants to come with. That was a surprise, so I guess I am going out of office with her Friday. I told her she didn’t need to if she did not want to. It’s not mandatory at all, but she wants. I guess this might be good to get back to some normalcy with her and I will be on my very best behavior with her to make her as comfortable as possible.
Hope that you and LO enjoy the outing. Sometimes it nice to get out of the office and break up the routine a little bit. And I am sure you will do all you can to make LO comfortable as possible.
Speedy,
If you can, bring a third person along. It will save you a lot of needless scrutiny and speculation.
It also sends a message to your LO.
Do you have any interns that need a field trip?
This is good advice. A chaperone would be good for moral and so that rumors in the office don’t get out of hand even if you have no ill intentions with your LO.
That’s why I was never alone with LO or went somewhere with just her, like lunch. There was always a third person present.
It’s possible, yes. 2 people I could bring usually work from home Fridays, but it would not be out of the ordinary to have another come along. It would be redundant, and an inefficient use of time, but possibly worth it this go around considering everything.
It’s a post-Covid, WAH world. You can blame Covid for a lot of things, valid or not.
If they balk, just tell them you’re trying to develop a bench you can draw on if you’re not available.
Consider it OPW (Other Productive Work). If it keeps the office running smoothly by suppressing gossip and speculation, it’s productive.
Buy lunch.
“you need to forgive yourself”
I don’t know how to do that. I know limerence is different than a flirty female co-worker trying to manipulate you with her wiles. But on the outside, to my wife, maybe it looks the same. And now she is hurt again. And then again maybe it is not and there is a deeper issue.
No we haven’t at any length talked about doing counseling. I think for now her willingly talking about LO is a step in the right direction. And the last few mentions have been a calmer and more productive than the ones before.
Yes perhaps I did near to hear about a possible PA as a warning. And she honestly wasn’t too harsh the first time in August. I was just really taken aback because I honestly don’t want that with LO. Maybe way back when I first met her and I just saw a pretty face. But as I got to know her I saw she was so much more. And I guess the more I talked about her the more my wife started to wonder how I felt about LO for real. Not just how I would tell her about LO.
I would say the last time I really remember being happy was our 19 year anniversary in 2018 when we got to get away in a suite for a whole three day celebration with no kids. Just the two of us. It’s been a hard few years since. Some ups here and there but it’s mostly been a low that I haven’t ever felt in our marriage.
With LO filling that void should have been the one thing I should have been more self aware than any other aspect. But yeah it was a nice feeling. But that’s being selfish and not fair to my wife’s feelings even if the absence of our own intimacy isn’t for me to blame entirely.
I will have to think on that one. The difficult thing is the way that women and men are in regards to intimacy. She doesn’t feel the desire for intimacy UNTIL this is resolved. And I don’t think I can resolve this with her WITHOUT intimacy. But maybe we can find a way that works for both of us. I am not trying to blame my wife entirely because of limerence but it is part of it. Because if we weren’t having issues I wouldn’t have been looking to another woman to give me what my wife wasn’t. Instead I should have brought just how badly the lack of intimacy was doing to me instead of trying to guard her feelings from getting hurt because well here we are in this mess of a situation.
Adam, your self awareness is amazing! Seriously, I know you don’t think you have a talent for mindfulness but you do.
I think Limmy reached this point once but I am beginning to wonder if the constant ruminations over limerence and reinforcement through others stories are starting to detract rather than add for me.
I enjoy everyone here so much and I feel invested in the stories but I find myself on here and other forums thinking about LO, LE, etc all day. I worry I’ll become addicted to sharing and constantly thinking about my LE in terms I can talk to others about instead of actively trying to move on.
Morning thoughts, that I just posted on the forums my morning thoughts were about. Cheers!
I’ve felt that a bit in the two weeks or so since I first posted here. It was very helpful to find out about limerence and what I am experiencing so that I can better understand it and myself. But at the same time, yeah, the sharing of stories about LO is addicting. Unlike others here LO is not around and so my memories and stories are all I have of her. Some days I feel it helps and other days I feel like I am posting here for my own benefit of remembering LO than I am trying to get over her. Which some days I don’t think I ever will, some days I don’t want to and still other days I have the strong will to get past this.
Adam, I have had hundreds of hours of therapy in the last 12 years. I think I mentioned earlier that I work with abused and neglected children, well the majority of that work is done at home because I adopted my foster children. They came with very big problems. We have done soooooo much therapy. Something I have learned is that therapy is like cleaning out a messy cabinet, it gets a lot messier while you drag everything out, but when you discard what isn’t serving you and you put everything back neatly, it feels so much better. I think you have barely begun to clean out your cabinet. I also suspect the drinking and limerence are distractions so you don’t have to think about your messy cabinet. It won’t clean itself out. How long do you want to live with a messy cabinet? Keep in mind that the mess effects Mrs. Adam, too. I know you love her enough to do hard things for her. I would really love to hear that you and Mrs. Adam have started seeing a therapist. You two are good people and you deserve good things.
Marriage Helper is a good place to start.
I think we are at the point where we got past or are right at the difficult emotional impact of all this and now we have to address why it happened and I think we both know that is not going to be easy and we are just letting this sit in limbo. After going to the store with her and when we got home she made me dinner and we sat and watched a movie together before I went to sleep. She’s a bit of insomniac.
It was a nice time together. It’s like I would like to forget this ever happened and she would too. But that won’t help with the real reason that this happened. And then even if I get over LO and we get to a better place but leave this out to dry I am afraid that either I won’t get over LO or there will just be an LO2 and that’s not an outcome I want either.
I guess this cleaning isn’t going to easy but necessary. I looked at Marriage Helper’s site the first time you mentioned it. I will try to bring it up to my wife and see if she thinks it will help or if we can get through this together. If we seek outside help I want her to be on board with it too. If we both don’t want to get help than it’s not going to work for either of us.
You know Miss Lovisa, now that I think about it, the whole evening we had together I didn’t think about LO at all. But then when I woke up early at 4am this morning there go the intrusive thoughts right off the bat. My wife was asleep so I put on some headphones and music and tried my best but I kept thinking of LO. I wish I could be stronger to reprogram myself.
Adam, I love that you guys watched a movie last night and went shopping. You got some needs met, that is why LO left your thoughts. You and SO connected, awwwww.
I’m sorry to say this but the easiest and fastest way for a man to connect with his his spouse is through sex. It just is. We don’t make these rules, they just exist. That is why you crave it. It’s actually the emotional connection that you want and your instincts know what works. But there are other ways, too. Keep doing what you’re doing. You had a huge success last night. Let’s celebrate! Woohoo! Cheers! (That was me celebrating, btw there is chocolate milk in my pretend cup, lol).
Also, Marriage Helper has free YouTube videos. They are great!
Rufio, I had that same worry for you. That is the reason I changed the subject. Remember? “Just keep swimming”. I was concerned that you would subconsciously think you had to have struggles with limerence in order to be a part of this lovely group. We have something magical here and limerence brought us together, but I think we are genuinely invested in each other. We get each other’s attention and support when we are struggling and it would be unhealthy if we struggle just because we want the attention. I hope that makes sense. I would love to be your cheerleader when things are good, too, at least until you don’t need me anymore. Man, I hope this makes sense. The woman behind the internet name “Lovisa” actually thinks about you all in her real life. Yesterday, I was washing the dishes and worried that I hurt Marcia’s feelings because I haven’t seen her on here as much lately. I was also trying to think of times when my libido was low because it might be helpful to the situation with Adam’s SO. Maybe I am unhealthily intertwined here, I don’t know. But I discovered that I care about the real people behind the internet names. I want to see you all thrive and I want to be a listening ear when you need it. If you need a break from LwL, I totally understand.
I really hope that makes sense.
Sorry to call you out like that, Marcia and Adam, I hope I didn’t offend either of you.
Lovisa,
It makes total sense and I truly appreciate everything you do and say here.
I have accepted my situation with LO as never being what I want but being better than it should be for a work situation. It doesn’t stop the little hurts or the ridiculous dialogue in my mind. It just doesn’t hurt as much. Living with an unexpressed love is bearable 90 % of the time and I know time will ease the feelings some. I also know now it truly is a form of love because I want her to be happy. I am happy when she shows me things for her wedding and gets so excited.
So perhaps it isn’t limerence so much anymore as a letting go. I almost feel like the real mourning is simply for me. Another wrong place wrong time encounter. I used this place to speak about it and it gave me comfort.
We will see where we go from here. Hang in there Adam. Lovisa, you rock. Keep helping people. I’m not leaving but perhaps I’ll try to finish this whole thing in a new light.
Thanks for the explanation. You rock too, Rufio! I’m cheering for you whether or not you pop up in the “recent comments.”
That unselfish love you feel is beautiful!
Lovisa,
” Yesterday, I was washing the dishes and worried that I hurt Marcia’s feelings because I haven’t seen her on here as much lately. ”
You’re fine. My feelings weren’t hurt.
I hope I didn’t offend you, either.
Thanks Marcia, you didn’t offend me.
“I’m sorry to say this but the easiest and fastest way for a man to connect with his his spouse is through sex. It just is. We don’t make these rules, they just exist. That is why you crave it. It’s actually the emotional connection that you want and your instincts know what works.”
Yes it is what I want. But I want her to be there in the present and want to too not just for the sake of keeping me quiet. And because of LO I now know for sure that what I want I want from my wife. I didn’t even feel a temptation even when LO was single. I recognized that she was an attractive woman but nothing more than that. And then as I got to know her I found an emotional need being filled. And maybe that is/was just as dangerous as a physical need. But I do feel that there is still something between my wife and I and I just need to be patient with her and allow her the time she needs to say yay or nay to this continued relationship. In the meantime I will do what I can to repair the damage that I am responsible for.
And yeah it was nice time. And it did help me with the intrusive thoughts. So it was nice to have that off my mind.
I have to agree Rufio, Miss Lovisa is awesome. And thank you I will do the best I can for myself and my marriage. Good luck to you and your situation. I know all to well the feeling or unrequited love but also the love of someone that just wants to see them happy. And I am very glad after what LO and her daughters went through with her ex/their father that they found someone to love and care for them. If I can ever detach I wish them the best for the rest of their lives.
Adam, your SO needs to feel safe and desired. She also needs her stress levels to be low. And you are correct that pressure to perform will stress her out. Maybe just love and accept her.
And this bit of information is for young dads that might be lurking. I’m sorry, but when you have a toddler pawing at you all day, the last thing you want is a husband pawing at you at night. I don’t have a solution for this problem except maybe a babysitter? But if your wife is like me, good luck tearing her babies away from her.
Oh here’s a thought. I ALWAYS accept foot rubs and back rubs. Maybe your wife likes that, too. Just don’t expect anything in return. It’s a way for you to get close, but don’t expect sex because she’ll be suspicious if you initiate a foot rub again.
Some of those thoughts are for lurkers who have a wife with a low libido.
Yes, Lovisa has a great deal of compassion, and has given so much to this community. @Lovisa, thank you.
@rufio
Thinking about limerence rather than thinking about LO directly is a way of weaning off the compulsion to connect with LO. I know this, because I wrote here as an alternative to texting LO, and it worked extremely successfully. But at some point, because the truth is we all want to move on with our real lives and the real people in them (delightful and heart-warming though the compassion of strangers is), we have to let go of this virtual life boat too. For me, I want to be present with my SO. My children. I want to be a good friend to those who have stuck with me. I want to build a dream, a passion, do something with the rest of my life. Writing here helps me so much to ease the loneliness and confusion, and as Limerent Emeritus calls it disenfranchised grief, but you cannot lose sight of the long term goal. And at some point we may need to let go of this, too. It is part of the process of letting go of LO.
@ Adam
Your plight has been on my mind quite a bit. I have been thinking about your SO, actually, and what might be going on with her. I noticed that you have extreme guilt and have trouble forgiving yourself for this. Have you wondered about your wife’s own feelings of guilt. She could be both feeling bad about AND defensive of her bi polar condition, which, has caused you to suffer greatly. So you coming with limerence, she may feel both responsible for it partly, but also angry with you for falling into limerence. If I had caused my husband (who is a good man) to feel lack of intimacy in my relationship, and he started a PA, I would probably be able to be righteously angry. A PA is a deliberate choice (why I say this is because there are so many steps needed to get naked with someone in a secluded place, it takes a lot of brain power and is therefore a conscious decision). It might actually have been a bigger shock to her to be told this is limerence, rather than a PA. In a way, a little more threatening, because it is involuntary – she probably knows she can trust your will and intent, but what if you are in the throes of something you have no control over? As a wife, I would feel very unsafe and insecure. UNLESS my husband is of a strong will and assures me he will do everything in his power to not give in to the involuntary urges (and still, I would not feel fully safe till those urges go away). There is something extremely powerful of the security that comes from involuntary urges – Marcia called it the desire to be “viscerally” wanted, and I think we call want that because it is SO SAFE – if someone is neurochemically bonded to you, the likelihood of them wandering off is low. So the fact that you have neurochemically bonded with someone else is making her feel scared, jealous, and also a little insulted (why her, not me?) But she also probably recognizes the part her illness play(which she is both feeling bad about, but also that it was involuntary for her, too, and she doesn’t feel she should be blamed for it) in contributing to creating such a void in you that you became susceptible to limerence, which is now causing you great suffering. It would have been waaaay easier to be mad with you for having a PA.
The truth is, no one is to “blame” for circumstance. Your wife’s bipolar, your limerence, those are circumstance, things you both have to face your guilt about AND forgive yourselves AND each other. Don’t make this monumental task even harder by wasting guilt on the parts you have no control over. She needs to recognize the part she played in all this, forgive herself for her mental illness (people tend to not, although they would never dream of feeling guilty about breaking a leg). You need to forgive yourself the limerence. (Basically for me, anything “involuntary” is not something to feel guilt about, but use guilt as a barometer to guide your “voluntary” and “conscious” choices.) THEN you can deal with the issues left over – your actions. If there are any to atone for, then do it. But rid your relationship of all UNECCESSARY guilt, it will distract you from reconnection.
Thank you all again. For being here to listen to me as I dealt with this hiccup. I realized belatedly that this news about my LO enlisting is a form of uncertainty – of death perhaps, and that might have triggered the limerence. I am humbly sure there may be other set backs (this is after all called living WITH limerence), but generally, the trend is good and I am going to try to get back on track here.
Godspeed to you all.
Wow, Limmy I am speechless. You are like Yoda with your wisdom. I second all that she just said.
Hey Guys, I really appreciate your kind words of encouragement. The timing couldn’t be better. I was offered a job today as a social worker. Hopefully my kids and SO are on board because I have been eager to re-enter to the workforce.
Okay, this is totally worth a last post.
CONGRATULATIONS, Lovisa.
I hope this a step toward greater fulfilment in your life, and a way to bring more of your great heart into the world.
Aww, thanks Limmy!
Thank you for such well thought out advice Limmy. I appreciate the effort you put into the consideration of my situation. It is a lot to think on and consider. And then to take action to try to get through this. I feel optimistic and hope that I can continue to be so.
The guilt is the hardest part but I will try to take your advice about letting go. I try to forgive myself but and do good for awhile and then here come the thoughts again. I try to occupy my mind with other things, but it is difficult but I will continue to make the effort.
Thank you again for your time and thoughtful words. I will take them to heart.
And congratulations Miss Lovisa. This sounds like a job that caters to your amazing skills to help people. I have no doubt wherever life takes you, helping people is something you just do naturally. I am very glad to have met both of you and everyone else in this community.
Thank you Adam. That makes me feel good.
Limmy,
“There is something extremely powerful of the security that comes from involuntary urges – Marcia called it the desire to be “viscerally” wanted, and I think we call want that because it is SO SAFE – if someone is neurochemically bonded to you, the likelihood of them wandering off is low.”
What I meant was … visceral attraction is the spark that gets things off the ground. Dating or a relationship, that is. And the older you get, the less your ability to spark that.
It’s certainly not the most important thing in a relationship but it can be the initial thing. The catalyst, so to speak.
But I don’t know that it makes me feel safe. Desired, yes. But I’m certainly aware that someone I feel that way about may feel that way about a lot of other women.
Marcia, I had to google “visceral” and I think I understand better now what you are talking about. True that the initial spark is visceral. True that us ladies spark attention less frequently as we age. True that it kinda stinks.
I think what is bothering you is that you are seeing married men pine after other women. You know that their wives don’t know, and you feel bad for their wives. And you don’t like the idea of your own lover pining after another woman. I wonder why that is so troubling for you. You also mentioned earlier that if your lover used pornography, it wouldn’t bother you.
My hang up is women who don’t have sex with their husbands. It really gets under my skin. I think it’s cruel because how is he supposed to get his needs met? Is his libido supposed to disappear just because she lost hers? It actually makes me angry. I wonder why this is so triggering for me.
I guess we all have our own triggers. I would love to dig deeper into our triggers if you’re interested. Maybe we can learn from each other.
Lovisa,
“True that us ladies spark attention less frequently as we age. True that it kinda stinks.”
Well, it happens to everyone. I was just last night watching a biography on impossibly handsome French actor Alain Delon. He said women were obsessed with him from when he was 18 to about 50. Even he couldn’t hold on to it forever.
“I think what is bothering you is that you are seeing married men pine after other women. You know that their wives don’t know, and you feel bad for their wives. And you don’t like the idea of your own lover pining after another woman. ”
Yes, it bothers me. I don’t see why that’s strange. I would not want someone I’m with to be obsessively infatuated with someone else. And the fact that their wives don’t know seems like lying by omission. And that they are in some way pursing the limerence. The calls, the lunches, the texts, the emails, etc. I don’t think you necessarily can control how you feel, but you can remove yourself from the situation once you “feel the glimmer.”
“I wonder why that is so troubling for you. ”
I don’t understand why you don’t understand that. I’m not talking about basic attraction to other people or finding others appealing. I’m talking about limerence. That’s something totally different.
“You also mentioned earlier that if your lover used pornography, it wouldn’t bother you.”
I’m not sure where I wrote that, but, no pornography doesn’t bother me unless it becomes excessive. I don’t think most men are pining over the women in porn. Porn is a means to an end.
“My hang up is women who don’t have sex with their husbands. It really gets under my skin. I think it’s cruel because how is he supposed to get his needs met? ”
Idk. I know this is going to sound contradictory, but I think it would be challenging to stay sexually interested year after year after year.
Marcia,
I pondered this all night. I wonder if I don’t see the problem with a limerent SO because I am the limerent SO. Maybe I am making excuses to justify my bad behavior.
Also, I discovered that fantasies are an effective way to keep sex exciting for many years with the same partner.
Lovisa,
“I wonder if I don’t see the problem with a limerent SO because I am the limerent SO. Maybe I am making excuses to justify my bad behavior.”
Well, there could be the idea of redefining the relationship. But the SO, of course, has to be included in the decision-making process. It can’t be unilaterally decided by the limerent without the SO’s knowledge. Maybe the SO is ok with the limerent having a friendship with the LO. Or texting or calling … or having lunch. I’m not sure what that would look like. It would depend on the couple.
“Also, I discovered that fantasies are an effective way to keep sex exciting for many years with the same partner.”
Do you enact these fantasies with your partner or are they running in your head quietly? 🙂 I mean, most of my fantasies involve getting my hands on specific people. I can’t see how I’d incorporate those fantasies into sex with a long-term partner.
Marcia,
My SO and I talked about boundaries with opposite gender friends. Texting, talking, and even visiting are fine. One greeting hug and one goodbye hug is fine. I tell my husband in advance if I visit a male friend and he can say no. My husband is comfortable with most of them, but LO3 gives him pause because LO3 is very fit.
As for the fantasies, they quietly run in my head while I’m with SO. Also worth noting is that you know how women desire sex more if they feel desired? Oftentimes, just talking to my male friends increases my libido, even the ones I’m not attracted to.
You mentioned depression. I’ve been there. It is awful. How can I help?
When my step-mom learned about my passion for running, she asked, “What are you running from?” I replied, “Depression.” She knowingly nodded and we had a good chat. I love my step-mom.
Lovisa,
” My husband is comfortable with most of them, but LO3 gives him pause because LO3 is very fit.”
Ah, so he’s uncomfortable because he’s a hunk? 🙂 Does your husband know how you feel about this guy? When you call him LO3, have there been 3 in your life or 3 during your marriage? A lot of posters puts numbers after their “LO.” I guess I just think of mine as “LO.” The most recent one. Who is 90% or so faded, and I hope he stays there. Like the other LOs before him. Faded away and in the past. Where I want them to be. Stay away. Stay away from my subconscious. 🙂
“Also worth noting is that you know how women desire sex more if they feel desired? ”
Yes. It’s the most common female sexual fantasy there is. Being ravished.
“Oftentimes, just talking to my male friends increases my libido, even the ones I’m not attracted to.”
Hmmmm …. I definitely enjoyed interacting with male friends. There was a bit of flirtatious energy. But I don’t know that it riled me up.
“You mentioned depression. I’ve been there. It is awful. How can I help?”
That’s sweet of you to ask. From what I’ve learned, there’s nothing really anyone can do. Other than be supportive, which a lot of people are not terribly good at. Most people don’t want to discuss it.
“When my step-mom learned about my passion for running, she asked, “What are you running from?” I replied, “Depression.” She knowingly nodded and we had a good chat. I love my step-mom.”
Ah, an astute woman. 🙂 Maybe it is running from something. I hadn’t thought of it like that.
Good questions, Marcia.
I’ve had 3 problematic LOs during my marriage. At first, it was hard for me to decide who to include as I was numbering my LOs. I decided to only include the men who were a problem for me plus the one I transferred to. LO3 isn’t actually a problem, but transferring limerence from LO2, requires there to be an LO3. I hope that makes sense. I think the reason LO3 isn’t as problematic is because there is very little uncertainty. Whew! And yes, LO3 is very hunky. His body isn’t what attracted me to him, it is just a very nice bonus. Very, very, very nice bonus. So very nice.
My husband doesn’t know that I am attracted to LO3. I think disclosing my attraction for LO1 to my husband was a mistake, so I don’t intend to disclose that again.
I think back to my depression and wonder if anyone could have done anything to pull me out of it. I don’t know if they could. But there were moments when someone did just enough to keep me going, like a little boost. It was LO2 who pulled me out of it, but of course he didn’t know that his attention had such a powerful impact on me. He woke me up. I guess limerence can be beneficial. Also, going outside and eye contact helped me during my darkest times. It was so awful. I wish I could help anyone who is stuck in that horrible place.
Lovisa,
“My husband doesn’t know that I am attracted to LO3.”
Well, he may sense something as you wrote LO3 gives him pause.
” I think disclosing my attraction for LO1 to my husband was a mistake, so I don’t intend to disclose that again.”
What did you say to him? I don’t think of limerence as just an attraction. More like an obsession. I don’t think I’d want to know every little attraction my SO was having. I know there are couples who point out and discuss attractive people with each other. I wouldn’t want to do that. Leave me the illusion at least some of the time that I’m the only one. 🙂 But limerence? Idk. We’re getting into a grey zone here.
“It was LO2 who pulled me out of it, but of course he didn’t know that his attention had such a powerful impact on me. He woke me up.”
Ah, yes. I have been pushed out of dark places by limerence. In retrospect, I think that was a bad thing, actually. Once I realized nothing was really going to happen with my last LO, the boost from the limerence was a false one.
Marcia,
“ Well, he may sense something as you wrote LO3 gives him pause.”
You are right. I want to address this with you. Thanks for bringing it up. My husband and I talked about LO3 a few nights ago and he said, “I don’t know why LO3 makes me feel so insecure. I am sorry.” I said, “It makes sense because I talk to him a lot.” My husband feels like his insecurities are causing a problem for me and he is sorry about it. There is truth to that, but I am contributing to this problem far more than he is. I just don’t think I should tell him that I have “feelings” for LO3 because it will be another source of pain for him and another man who can’t be in our lives. (I have no contact with LO1 since disclosing to SO).
When I disclosed about LO1, I used the term EA and I told my husband about some specific moments with LO1 including that LO1 asked me to leave my SO. My husband said, “I thought he was my friend.” He was hurt by both my behavior and LO1’s behavior. I hate that I put my SO through this garbage. Grrr I am so mad at myself right now.
Marcia, I think I’m using limerence as a mood regulator and I am really afraid to let go. Depression was awful. I fear it. I don’t see another way to be happy without limerence. I also fear that I am hurting other people. I tell myself that as long as I maintain good boundaries, it doesn’t matter what is happening in my head. I think there is truth to that, but there is still leakage that I can’t control.
Thanks for helping with this.
Lovisa,
So you and your SO are friends with LO3? You all hang out together?
“I think I’m using limerence as a mood regulator and I am really afraid to let go. Depression was awful. I fear it. I don’t see another way to be happy without limerence. ”
I won’t lie. After I started to be honest with myself that nothing would happen with my LO (and I so very much wanted it to), the depression came back. I didn’t know what to with myself. And I haven’t found something that totally replaces it.
That being said, I don’t want to become limerent again. I don’t want to do that to myself again. I actually fear limerence more than depression.
Marcia, Thanks for being honest that the depression came back after the limerence settled down. I am sorry you are going through that. I wish I had solutions. Interesting that limerence is scarier than depression for you and it is the opposite for me.
To answer your question, LO3 is a friend to me and an acquaintance to my husband. No, we don’t hang out. In fact I rarely see LO3 in person.
Lovisa,
“Thanks for being honest that the depression came back after the limerence settled down. ”
Well, it didn’t settle down. I mean, it has now, after NC, but that’s not why the depression resurfaced. What happened was he shot me down … for having an affair. So I didn’t know what to do after that … that’s what I really wanted, so what do I do now?
” Interesting that limerence is scarier than depression for you and it is the opposite for me.”
Well, I want to be present in my own life (I think limerence is a lot of time in one’s head) and I want people in my life with whom I’m having fully realized relationships. Not someone on the periphery who will never really be a part of my life. And I don’t want to be spend so much time and energy on someone who isn’t a part of my life. I highly doubt he was focusing that much on me.
So, yes, I’d rather be depressed than putting all my energy into the wrong place.
Marcia, I like how you are focusing on being present with real people in your life. I will be pondering this for myself.
I am very curious about your story. Please only share if you are comfortable.
“ What happened was he shot me down … for having an affair. So I didn’t know what to do after that … that’s what I really wanted”
Who shot you down?
Who was the affair with?
What did you really want?
“so what do I do now?”
I think you are in a good place to figure out what you do now.
Lovisa,
“Who shot you down? Who was the affair with?”
I’m kind of surprised at your questions. Isn’t this site about limerence? 🙂 My LO, to both .
“What did you really want?”
A big sexy affair with my LO.
“I think you are in a good place to figure out what you do now.”
What I meant was … nothing has replaced the limerent high, the single-minded focus to “get with” my LO. But I’d still rather be where I am now. No more fixations on married people.
Marcia, oh that stinks. I get it now. That just stinks. I’m glad you are finished with that. You might be in a good position to help the new commenter. I think she goes by Free Fall. Please check out her post. She is in a lot of pain.
Miss Lovisa I know I promised to discuss this sober, which I am not, but I read your and Miss Marcia’s conversation and I’d like to reiterate the contrasting difference in men and women when it comes to physical intimacy.
Men desire physical intimacy for an emotional connection with their lady. Women need an emotional connection to express physical intimacy. In society one is favored over the other socially. But both parties are seeking the same endgame.
But it seems a woman denying a man that physical intimacy isn’t viewed the same as a man being emotionally unavailable.
The common factor is when it comes to infidelity, crushes, limerence men cheat whether it be emotional or physically out of lack of physical intimacy because thats how men emotionally connect. Whereas most women are most likely to have an emotional affair because their man isn’t fulfilling their emotional needs for them to have a desire to fulfill their need for physical intimacy. In the end infidelity in both genders is a desire to fill the same void its just the route in which they do it is different.
That’s why limerence is common in both genders because the root cause is identical. The road to it is just different.
Ladies have a good night. Miss Lovisa I’m sorry I feel victim to my weakness. I’m sure I’ll get to talk to you sober tomorrow.
Adam,
“Women need an emotional connection to express physical intimacy. ”
Actually, that’s not true, at least for me. I need to feel desire to want to have sex. And it does die down in relationship over time. And, frankly, once you’re experienced limerence, your idea of what desire is gets warped. Your feelings are so heightened. It’s not realistic to expect all the time.
To me, sex and emotional closeness are two different things. You can be really close to someone and not necessarily dying to have sex with them.
Adam,
This one’s for you.
“Lonely in Love” – Dan Fogelberg (1987)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOQvyn2EFts
In the album liner notes, Fogelberg said he wrote this shortly after getting married. He said it was a strange song for a newlywed to write.
As I remember, this came out about 3 months after I broke up with LO #2 but still held out hope we could reconcile.
1987 was a miserable year. I met my wife in February 1988.
1988 was much better.
Wow, that was very helpful, Adam. No problem that you fell victim to your weakness. Thanks for being honest about it.
I don’t understand why men have emotional affairs. If sex is how he gets his intimate needs met, why would a man engage in an emotional affair?
Wait! Maybe I get it. Is he “playing the long game?” Do men provide emotional intimacy to a woman for the purpose of getting sex or at least that is what they hope will happen? Perhaps women have physical affairs because they think sex is necessary to keep the man’s attention. Maybe?
Adam, this is helpful. I am so curious why my LO3 is showering me with attention. If he isn’t getting needs met through our conversations, why is he engaging me so frequently?
Miss Marcia
If she is just bored of me than why not just tell me? I would much rather hear the truth talk about where the relationship will go on if it will go on sexless. If the absence of it is effecting me so bad I fall for another woman like this, it’s just gonna happen again and again. Not the kind of life I want.
LE
Thank you for that. I can definitely relate to the lyrics of that song, and music is nice. I know some Dan Fogelburg but I have not heard this song before.
This one has been getting to me. But I still keep listening to it. I didn’t know the artist or the song when it came up in my youtube suggestions. Like I was meant to hear this song.
Tell Me — Hunter Hayes
https://youtu.be/hzRjo5y6lgQ
Miss Lovisa
As I tried to fall asleep last night I was wondering your response. In that, I thought of something about me and my past. And when you talked about needs in this comment I just know that this is important. Every woman I have been involved with, from the first crush I had (my best friend’s sister; yeah i didn’t tell him lol) all the way up to LO has had one thing in common; I thought they needed to be rescued from something.
Best friend’s sister: attracted fuckboys
first girl: self image issues due to eczema
2nd girl: came out of abusive relationship
3rd girl: abandoned after he found out she was pregnant
1st girl online: childhood trauma
2nd girl online: self image issues due to weight
my wife: rape survivor
LO: pos toxic ex still f’ing around in her life
I was thinking about that last night and noticing an obvious pattern. And when I really got to thinking about why I have some much sadness and emptiness it came to me that LO doesn’t need me anymore. She accepted my help and thanked me for it before she met her gentleman friend. But now that she has him she doesn’t need me.
Adam, all men love to feel needed. You are not alone. I wonder if your desire to rescue a woman is deeply rooted in… just a guess… your mother needed rescuing?
Can you channel that desire to be a hero and use it to rescue your SO from whatever troubles her?
You are making great progress! I feel like you are figuring out what was at the core of your limerence.
Along the lines of what might be happening with a woman’s thoughts in a sexless marriage, I had a conversation yesterday with my LO2’s best friend. LO2’s 30ish years of marriage have been pretty much sexless. I feel so bad for him because he did everything right by our culture’s standards, including waiting to have sex until marriage. I don’t think he even knows what sex is like with a partner who wants it. Grrrrr, that just grates on me. Yesterday, LO2’s friend told me that SO of LO2 feels threatened by me. Nuts! I didn’t mean to threaten anyone. But this tells me that even though she isn’t interested in sex, she is interested in keeping her marriage in tact. Your wife might still want the marriage even though her libido is low right now. I can’t even guess what is happening in your wife’s thoughts because it’s just not anything I have been through personally.
“I wonder if your desire to rescue a woman is deeply rooted in… just a guess… your mother needed rescuing?”
Not that I would say. While I found this out as an adult (from my sister) that our mother did struggle with depression. Something I never knew because I wasn’t perceptive enough or mother did good hiding it. But other than that mother was always there for us. She never worked until my senior year of high school. My father provided for us alone while we were growing up.
“Can you channel that desire to be a hero and use it to rescue your SO from whatever troubles her?”
If she will let me, I am trying. I feel like in that aspect of the marriage, like your friend you mentioned, she is okay with it the way it is but still expects me to be here in the marriage and loyal. And that’s ….. well Miss Lovisa I dunno if I can go on another 29 years like this even if every other aspect of the marriage is happy. And I DON’T want to go outside the marriage. But that doesn’t mean at some point I wouldn’t. Which of course that than means not only do I have to accept this as is I have to push down resentment that will eventually make things worse. But I will continue to try and make the effort to repair this.
I don’t either. Because the few times I bring up anything about intimacy it always comes back to LO. Its as if years of prior problems before meeting LO with intimacy she wasn’t to place at LO’s feet, who has done nothing intentionally to start the limerence or anything inappropriate of a co-worker. And then that of course frustrates me and makes me more resentful.
But I am going to try and do the right thing and stand behind my vows.
Deep breaths. That’s hard, Adam. I don’t think I would last long in a sexless marriage.
Can I ask you something? If your wife had a high libido and you guys had a lot of sex, would it bother you to learn that she uses fantasies to keep her libido high?
Your relentless, patronising, self-satisfied, smug, overbearing, intrusive, and smothering observations, currently evidenced throughout this website are perhaps distracting some people from the true nature of the generous expertise and the valuable advice so freely offered by the site’s author.
I have no doubt that you mean well and your contributions seem to be appreciated by some distressed participants. If it helps them, that’s a good thing, I suppose.
Adam,
The issues in your marriage and why you’re attracted to who you are may be related but are distinct problems.
Doing the work to determine the first can be be hard and take you places you’d never thought you’d go. It has the potential to redefine, or possibly even destroy, long standing relationships.
Only you can decide what’s important to you. When my wife and I were having problems, she flat out asked me, “Do you want to stay married to me?”
My response to her was, “I don’t know.” I told her I didn’t think I’d be happier anyplace else or with anyone else. I told her if there was someone else at least I’d be running to somewhere as opposed to just running away. That was true. I didn’t say anything about LOs.
If my marriage ended, I don’t know if I’d turn to LO #4. At the time, I thought I might but now, I don’t think I would. Too much time has passed. We left some things on the table and, when I go off the rails, I usually don’t go back over that stretch of track.
But, we’re where we are because of the decisions we made, some by me and some by my wife. It came down to this.
I know that my wife is the best thing that ever happened to me. She was the first person to ever sacrifice something to be with me. When she had to make a decision that would bring us together or drive us apart, she chose the one to keep us together. At one point, it looked pretty grim. When I was diagnosed with cancer, she was with me all the way and still is.
Yeah, there are a few areas in our marriage that can use some serious tweaking but you don’t give up on someone like that. I know how hard it was to find one woman like that. I don’t know that I’d ever find another.
On the other hand, sometimes you say, “Enough” and leave in the hope of a better tomorrow. Or, you go outside your marriage. Everybody has to make that call for themselves.
LOs are catalysts. Sometimes they can be a catalyst for good and sometimes they merely provide us the opportunity to wreak havoc upon ourselves.
Great song, by the way!
L.E.
I think that is where we, or at least I am at. I think the thing is that keeps me living with it for the last 3-4 years is even if we did end our marriage, I could never actually leave. Her bipolar and anxiety are too extreme for her to make it on her own. And only her father and step mother live somewhat close. Because I would never abandon her. We were friends before lovers.
That and like you said, if you and your