One of the recurring themes of the blog is the tension that often exists between limerence and long-term love. Sometimes, when the stars align, limerence can transition into the kind of affectional bonding that leads to a stable and healthy union. More often, limerence proves to be no predictor of the viability of a relationship. Occasionally, limerence runs actively counter to the goal of forming an enduring pair bond.
We’re going to talk about that last scenario today.
The factors that contribute to the glimmer are mysterious and complex. I don’t mean this is the sense that they are somehow mystical or ineffable, I just mean our own personal history, the role models that shaped our romantic development, and the state of our lives at the moment we meet a new limerent object are all so intermingled and indefinable that they become an emotional milieu.
They are also, usually, inaccessible – in the sense that we can’t really recall the formative events in our pasts clearly. It takes work to identify your triggers reliably.
Given this complexity, it’s pretty likely that any limerent will at one time or another become besotted with someone who is not a compatible mate. Even putting aside the simple causes (they are not attracted to you, they are married, you are married), there are often internal incompatibilities that have nothing to do with uncertainty or barriers. You just aren’t right for each other.
This incompatibility is sometimes obvious to others immediately. A charming aspect of limerence is that it can alight on someone so obviously wrong, that your friends and family are baffled by your attraction. Unfortunately, that can make the LO seem ever more special and sweet.
To the outside observer, this is a simple situation to handle. Just… don’t get involved with LO. Find someone more compatible. For limerents, though, it is obviously not so simple. Just… ignore the total sensory, emotional and romantic overwhelm and move on.
So, what can you do? If the rational part of your brain knows that you are not compatible with your LO, but you crave them with every molecule of your emotional being, what practical steps can you take to resolve the situation?
1. Decide what you want
There’s not a lot of planning involved in become limerent. We tend to drift into it by the accident of bumping into someone who matches our “limerence avatar” at a time when we are psychologically vulnerable. This isn’t always true – you might be dating and actively looking for someone and then meet an LO – but we rarely pick out a candidate and try and conjure the glimmer into being.
Consequently, there is not much in the way of decision-making before the episode starts. That means you need to catch up a bit. If you are searching for a partner, you need to be clear on what you want. Monogamy? Marriage? Fun? Company? Hook ups? Be honest with yourself about your actual ambitions.
If you want a long-term partner, but talk yourself into some casual hooking-up with LO while you wait for something more serious to “come along” then you will likely suffer agonies. The more intimate you get, the deeper into limerence you will fall, with someone you cannot successfully bond with.
2. Figure out the scale of the incompatibility
The second issue to consider is how big an incompatibility you are dealing with. Putting aside the scenarios where external factors are to blame (e.g. your being married isn’t an “incompatibility”), what is the basis of your mismatched needs?
This is not as easy to identify as you’d think, especially in the throes of limerence. We can really tie ourselves into knots to accommodate the interests of our LOs. An outsider might see this as cynical and manipulative, but we can be so sincerely dazzled by them that we happily open ourselves to new experiences if they might bring us closer.
Superficial incompatibilities in tastes, location, and habits can be overcome. Indeed, one of the most gratifying and life-enhancing aspects of a good relationship is how your partner helps you grow; but there are more fundamental issues that cannot be benignly indulged.
The key problems are deep beliefs – incompatibility of moral values, life goals, and basic personality traits are not going to be overcome without self-negation or constant emotional friction.
If you love to socialise and they hate it, faking for a while won’t be enough. If they are competitive, assertive, and disagreeable, and you are compassionate, shy and generous, you will more likely cause each other continual stress than balance each other out. If you are orthodox and devout, and they are an atheist, there will be trouble ahead.
Couples can make weird matches work, but it’s much easier for couples with complementary beliefs.
3. It can’t end well
If you have identified incompatibilites, and your rational mind is sounding a distant alarm bell, then you will need to start finding strategies for diffusing the limerence energy. One helpful observation – that you could adopt as a mantra – is that it cannot end well.
There is no future scenario with an incompatible LO which is win-win. Let’s say you have follow the typical path of being carried by a euphoric wave into a limerent relationship and only starting to recognise the incompatibilities once personality clashes begin to tarnish the thrill of ecstatic union. What are your future options?
Ignore the disquieting incompatibility and stick with it? Maybe marriage, children, and then building up a reservoir of resentment and discomfort about the way they act, the way they want to raise your children, the mismatched expectations you have of each other?
Or, maybe you believe you can change them? By attrition you will make them see the superiority of your beliefs and opinions? Even if you succeed, you will basically have cancelled their life and proven that your spouse’s principles could be compromised with enough pressure. This is not a recipe for long-term harmony.
Even the best case scenario is that you drift in basically satisfactory companionship, ignoring points of conflict and never resolving your differences. Until one or other of you falls for someone more compatible.
4. Get to know your CEO
One of the peculiarities of limerence is that your rational mind is not absent, it’s just lost some of its power over your behaviour. Most limerents know that they are walking on thin ice when flirting with an incompatible LO, but they just carry on, bewitched by the beauty, and overruling their common sense.
I’ve talked before about how the “executive brain” should be intervening to help with the situation, but is frequently sidelined by the more urgent, instinctive desires of limerence. For me, it felt like I still had access to my rational self, but somehow he was kind of chilling in the background – like he’d retreated to the quiet corners of my mind to enjoy some leisure time, content to give me some latitude to act like a fool.
It’s a good policy to give this mental CEO a bit more say. It really does feel in the grip of temptation as though you are two people: one who wants to give into temptation and one that knows you shouldn’t, but also knows they are probably not going to be able to stop you.
That CEO has your best interests in mind. In fact, they are you in your most competent, responsible and wise form. Probably best to let them lead as you navigate through storms.
5. Take action quickly
Finally, and returning to last week’s theme, once you know you are not compatible, and that you don’t have a long-term future with LO, it’s best to take action quickly and decisively.
The temptation will be to instead keep trying to get emotional hits while you can, hanging on for as long as possible as the highs diminish, until they are mainly happy memories – lost pleasures that you want to believe you could get back, if you can just make things work. This is not the reality of how limerence progresses. As the euphoria fades, the incompatibilities will manifest. Conflicts, compromises and discord will inevitably develop.
It is easier to resist the temptation of early limerence for an obviously incompatible LO than it is to disentangle yourself from an intimate relationship that was doomed from the start. It hurts less too.
Once it’s clear that you are becoming limerent for someone unsuitable, it is in everyone’s best interest for you to detach gracefully, but conclusively.
“ For me, it felt like I still had access to my rational self, but somehow he was kind of chilling in the background – like he’d retreated to the quiet corners of my mind to enjoy some leisure time, content to give me some latitude to act like a fool.”
Ha! Love that picture. Mine does lounge away in a deck chair and from time to time chuckles derisively, while I hysterically rush around in anxiety.
Yes, that is so accurate! I feel like my executive brain was a sort of ineffectual parent figure, feebly protesting and then just giving in and ignoring the limerent child stuffing her face with sweets and then throwing up and crying.
This comment made me laugh a lot. Accurate.
It’s also amazing how much we can ignore incompatibility in the throes of an LE. I’ve had some very lucky escapes ( which didn’t feel lucky at the time) from what would have been awful relationships. And I threw away good relationships with kind and good partners.
LO#2, who was my college GF, and I were fairly incompatible in the communication department. Basically we were both bad at it. It led to a lot of tumult between us. But my oh my did we have a lot of passion. Ultimately that relationship ended.
Current LO is not a great communicator either and she frustrates me a lot, which is one of the reasons my LE burns hot for her. But we would probably have our share of issues if we were ever in a real romantic relationship.
My SO was/is incredible for me. We compliment each other perfectly in our interpersonal dynamics. We have a great relationship. My only problem with SO is I was never limerent for her, I never had much desire or sexual passion for her, we never experienced uncertainty, I never really had to pursue her. As a limerent/romantic that is hard to come to grips with in the throws of intense LE 23 years later. But my executive brain recognizes SO as the perfect life companion for me.
I should say *strong* desire for SO. Obviously I did have some level of sexual attraction/passion for her. Just not as much as other love interests in my past.
“Once it’s clear that you are becoming limerent for someone unsuitable, it is in everyone’s best interest for you to detach gracefully, but conclusively.”
Falling in love is like going to war, you may win, but also you are liable to get wounded or even killed…yet you enter it!
No, I’m never gonna fall in love again , I know the score. ha.
Have a nice safe weekend.
Falling in love is NOT “like going to war”; expecting and craving for reciprocation from the love — (un)available or in(compatible), is like going to war. If one is content with unrequited love in distance, it’s still beautiful….🌹
To be able to Fall in Love with that mysterious glimmer at any age is the most beautiful thing during one’s life 💐 How to hold onto it without limerence is a hard battle to fight.
I want to fall in love again and again until my deathbed…
“Falling in love is NOT “like going to war”; expecting and craving for reciprocation from the love — (un)available or in(compatible), is like going to war.”
Song of the Post:
https://youtu.be/BEUnBEon9f4?feature=shared “Love Is A Battlefield” – Pat Benetar (~1985)
“In love the other is important; in lust you are important.” — Osho
Lust, not love (emotion-bonding), is a battle field for survival and reproduction. Most of time, we humans don’t separate lust and love, treating them as the same matter. Both men and women, while deeply loving their SO, could have gratifying sex with others.
Dr L in some blog also points out that pair-bonding and emotion-bonding are two different parts in human brain.
To be in love is not the same as loving. You can be in love with a woman and still hate her.~ Fyodor Dostoevsky
Sound like limerence with bad/problematic LO.
What is hell? I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love.” ~ Dostoyevsky
It’s to love, unrequitedly love, including your LOs. I’ve personally experienced such a hell…
@Nisor: No one chooses to fall; the word “Falling in”, instead of “entering”, used in “Falling in love” indicates its involuntary nature. “Entering love” might be better chosen by one’s mental CEO.
With all the physical and mental pains I suffered, I’m not regretting I have “fell in love” with an unfit LO, only hoped that I could have avoided slipping into LE if I had some prior knowledge of limerence.
“To be in love is not the same as loving. You can be in love with a woman and still hate her.”~ Fyodor Dostoevsky
I like this!
It’s pretty much where LO #2 ended up.
“One of the peculiarities of limerence is that your rational mind is not absent, it’s just lost some of its power over your behaviour. Most limerents know that they are walking on thin ice when flirting with an incompatible LO, but they just carry out, bewitched by the beauty, and overruling their common sense.”
This is probably where I am today, minus the actual flirting. I just go and on with the hope in the right time and the right place, I will catch LO, say what I need to say and life will be forever perfect.
Of course this is delusional, but I am in terrible state of limbo and don’t even know if I care anymore. Exactly what’s written there. No common sense.
MJ, hi
I’m so sorry you feel so down MJ. It’s that limbo situation with things not changing a bit. A daily struggle you don’t need, or anybody for that matter. How long till change comes, oh Lord? If only someone new came into the picture to make you look ahead to new pastures …
Meanwhile lo is like your good fairy that keeps you company in your loneliness and gives you comfort. Sometimes that’s better than the real thing, you mold and shape them as how you wish they were. Love is a many splendored thing but it can be very deceiving and hurtful too. Not many people have the real deal, I believe; not if you need to have the stars aligned to your favor. I mean, how often does that happen?
Wishful thinking.
You keep yourself 💪🏽 strong and healthy and looking for that wistful little star. Sending you hugs and love.❤️
Thank you Nisor. Your messages are always so kind.
You’re just like the nice Old Woman in my neighborhood growing up, that lived in that Old Victorian on the corner. With the 10 foot ceilings, stained glass windows and a big jar of candy she always shared with us kids. I always looked forward to that. Kinda like when you show up and reply here.
I’m doing ok for the most part. Trying not to dwell too much on the negatives of LO. It’s all pretty much within my control. I just need to apply myself better but that can be challenging. I don’t want to sound like a broken record. There are people in this forum that probably feel like they need help more than I do and they should get it. My situation is just pathetic in my opinion but I’ve done it to myself. It’s up to me to take the reins and do something about it.
Sending you 💖🤗 too..
Excellent post Dr L – I am so pleased my mental CEO knew what she was doing and knew she was getting in thick and it was time to pull away! I guess this is where my values kicked in – that I shouldn’t being having warm and fuzzy feelings for someone coz I’m married!! However, I wish that I knew or was educated that this can be a normal part of life when you’ve been married for a long time. I then wouldn’t have been so hard on myself and wanted to solve the problem mentally. Even though my mental CEO knew to pull away and go “no contact” with LO, my mind kept fantasising for months afterwards. That’s where my mental CEO, just couldn’t kick in – that’s when it sat back in the deck chair, probably saying “you”will be sorry”!! It just didn’t have enough authority to stop me indulging in the thoughts/fantasy of it all!!
Anyway live and learn – onwards and upwards now!
Clip of the Day: https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/comics/peanuts/?amu=/peanuts/2023/09/10
Whatever else I say about LO #2, I can’t say that the woman ever lied to me or tried to deceive me. Whenever I asked her a straight question, she always gave me an answer that I could work with.
Furthermore, her words and actions were congruent. I saw what was happening but failed to understand its significance. I also reversed caused and effect which led me to have some fundamental misconceptions about how things worked. Once I got that straight, a whole lot of things started to make sense.
On paper, LO #2 and I looked pretty good across the board. There were no obvious obstacles to our success. It never occurred to me that LO #2 might have as many or more problems as I had. Just didn’t. IMO, we don’t want to believe our LOs are inherently flawed creatures, maybe even more flawed than we are.
Some of the clinical literature I read indicated that had I continued, LO #2 would have continually tested me until I failed, which is what she was unconsciously driving for. In the end, I quit before I failed.
We were incompatible. It just took me 5 years to figure it out and leave. It took me two decades to understand why.
“We were incompatible. It just took me 5 years to figure it out and leave. It took me two decades to understand why.”
LE,
it took me three years to figure out Lo and I were incompatible and I left. He was running the relationship to his liking, and I was the obedient lamb. I still can’t for sure understand the incompatibility except that he was extremely jealous and I sometimes felt like I was in a straight jacket, felt lo wanted somehow to change my personality, but he couldn’t. I walked out on time, never looked back, 50 years now this September. But he’s my beloved lo!!! I know his flaws and his good side, and with his jealousy , we could have never been at peace if we were to be a married couple. I’m me! Free spirit! I got to be me, I got to be me and express myself the way I feel and want to. Or I would rebel sooner or later. No constraints.
Have a nice week.
Song of the blog:
“I gotta be me”
Sammy Davis Jr.
The last “date” LO #2 and I went on was The Rat Pack concert at the Seattle Coliseum in March 1988.
I saw Sammy Davis perform it live and Frank Sinatra perform “My Way.”
LE,
How do you like them apples!
Good that you saw them live. They were amazing together. Dean Martin and Peter Lorry , they were all good friends…
I don’t know if you can fully compatible with someone, as you say. Some things are more important than others. With my LO, I think we are compatible in some ways and not in others. But are they the important ways? If I imagine us getting together (which will never happen due to those other reasons), I think we will be doing a lot of impulsive things that may be bad for both of us in the long term.
On top of that, we definitely have a communication issue, which may be due to the fact than neither one of us can really admit what we feel (cause I feel things, and he may not, but I think he does even if not as much as me). But we have to pretend that we don’t.
My CEO however has been really trying hard this week and she is winning at the NC game. But I am imagining my other part trying to squish her down at any moment, but she keeps on coming back up.
“This incompatibility is sometimes obvious to others immediately. A charming aspect of limerence is that it can alight on someone so obviously wrong, that your friends and family are baffled by your attraction. Unfortunately, that can make the LO seem ever more special and sweet.”
I think limerents need to be mindful of three types of incompatibility.
The first type of incompatibility is picking an LO who is clearly a bad egg, and refusing to consider that person’s negative qualities, because the infatuation is so strong.
The second type of incompatibility is picking an LO with whom one has nothing in common. The LO is a good person. It’s just limerent and LO aren’t a good fit, due to lack of shared interests.
The third type of incompatibility is when two people (single, free to act) are in mutual limerence for each other, get together, and define compatibility as “intense feeling for the other”. And then one or both parties stop having such intense feelings. Without intense feelings, are they still compatible, especially since intense emotion was the declared basis of the couple’s compatibility? This couple can only be compatible if they find some other definition of compatibility.
@sammy
The word “picking” indicates that limerent has a choice to select an LO. In reality, at least the majority of cases here, the glimmer set off without our conscious decision at all; it just happened driven by some genetic or genomic factors. Then, sooner or later, limerent mind slips into limerence, with our CEO seemingly “paralyzed”, even if she clearly sees all sorts of incompatibilities and keeps telling our emotional brain, “this this a wrong person…it’s not going to work, it’s detrimental…”. Merry-go-around, some of us still stuck in it.
On the other side of the coin, two people seem to be very compatible but there is not enough (neuro)chemistry in between, so no “sparkle” or “glimmer” ever set in. At most, they can be close friends or confidants to each other. For us limerents, it’s almost impossible to settle with those non-sparkling LO….
@Snowphoenix.
“The word “picking” indicates that limerent has a choice to select an LO. In reality, at least the majority of cases here, the glimmer set off without our conscious decision at all; it just happened driven by some genetic or genomic factors.”
That is an excellent observation! 😛
“Then, sooner or later, limerent mind slips into limerence, with our CEO seemingly “paralyzed”, even if she clearly sees all sorts of incompatibilities and keeps telling our emotional brain, “this this a wrong person…it’s not going to work, it’s detrimental…”. Merry-go-around, some of us still stuck in it.”
Superb analysis, and especially relevant since you link it back to key points Dr. L makes in article.
“On the other side of the coin, two people seem to be very compatible but there is not enough (neuro)chemistry in between, so no “sparkle” or “glimmer” ever set in. At most, they can be close friends or confidants to each other. For us limerents, it’s almost impossible to settle with those non-sparkling LO….”
As I understand it, the limerent only wants the LO while the limerence episode lasts. In theory, the limerent should be able to date non-glimmery people if not in an active state of limerence with LO, and not in the altered state of limerence in general. 🤔
If the limerent is in the altered state of limerence but doesn’t have an LO, then, yes, you’re right – the limerent will keep looking for the glimmer in every potential mate they meet, and feel dissatisfied if they don’t find it. The criteria limerents use to screen potential mates appears to be “off” in the sense limerents are using different criteria for mate selection than everybody else i.e. non-limerents.
Dorothy Tennov herself said that limerents “declare a monopoly over sex”. It seems that this sexual monopoly i.e. refusing to be with non-glimmery partners, comes with a terrible inbuilt cost for the limerent. (It shrinks the size of the dating pool for one and makes one reject eligible candidates).
“As I understand it, the limerent only wants the LO while the limerence episode lasts. In theory, the limerent should be able to date non-glimmery people if not in an active state of limerence with LO, and not in the altered state of limerence in general. 🤔“
@Sammy
All of my 4 major (+ minor ones) experiences is that limerent wants the LO once the glimmer sets in, even without their clear consciousness; it’s like a light bulb is subtly turned on inside their vast walnut curves when they don’t quite realize which part is lit up! When limerence kicks in, limerent is already addicted to LO, who, or the idea of who, occupies the limerent’s mind 24/7 in the front.
I still don’t see how limerent, who is supposed to feel (in)passionate about things or people, could date non-glimmered-people — mostly appear dull in limerent’s eyes. Even if they could manage for a little while, then their imaginary brain tends to slip into the altered state of limerence — e.g. seeing colorful hola in those non-glimmered LOs.
Tennov’s theory still stands correct that It’s hard for most limerents to be with non-glimmered partners; if with glimmered LOs, they subconsciously hold (w/o expectation or request) a monopoly over sex, as well as heart and mind, which would terribly “shrink the size of their dating pool” and make them blind to even more suitable LOs around .
“If the limerent is in the altered state of limerence but doesn’t have an LO, then, yes, you’re right – the limerent will keep looking for the glimmer in every potential mate they meet, and feel dissatisfied if they don’t find it.”
How could the limerent is in the altered state of limerence if they don’t have an LO? What would they crave for? What’s their highs or lows? Your hypothesis doesn’t exist. Between my LEs, I only felt either bored, melancholy, or at best, peacefully detached — can still feel joys or sorrows for others from a distance, like peeking through a window at a variety of people’s dinning inside a diner or restaurant.
Again, the glimmer often comes when one is at least expected, or at one’s low state. I guess that available, “peaceful” limerents’ radar is always on for that glimmer everywhere. In LwL, I get a sense that majority of limerents already have a SO, when the glimmer just knocked off their CEO, even when they think or claim they’re satisfied with their committed life for years.
“The criteria limerents use to screen potential mates appears to be “off” in the sense limerents are using different criteria for mate selection than everybody else i.e. non-limerents.”
Do limerents have criteria for non-limerence dating? If they do, that genetically naughty glimmer would spin their criteria, along with their logical thinking, out of space! If limerents’ are in an alter mental state — limerence (different from other cptsd symptoms), they should already have a LO, and their radar for other possible mates is automatically turned off.
Some limerents are so “narrow-minded” with only one LO sitting in it tightly at a time, like myself. In the past, only the next, more powerful LO could push the previous one out, not the other way around (I tried to “pair with” LO#5 to kick out LO#7 from my head, it didn’t work — ended up with one in the body, one in the mind 🫢); otherwise, the latest just hung up high like a fixed, watchful iconic star, never off. Without LO#8, I seriously question my power and ability to firmly depart from LO# 7 🧐
My progress is that I no longer berate myself for my idiotic limerence and its relapses, coming with dopamine highs and lows, while persisting on my physical and mental workouts daily. My biggest “ego” is always pride and impatience, wanting to climb Mount Everest in one day….
The bigger challenge is that underline nagging: what’s point to climb to the tip of Mount Everest alone, without a truly loving LO? Isn’t it better off to just lie down at the base camp, dreaming about “pair-bonding” with glimmered LO under flickering stars for one night at a time?… ✨
@Snowphoenix.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. Here are my thoughts in reply.
” … [the] limerent wants the LO once the glimmer sets in, even without their clear consciousness; it’s like a light bulb is subtly turned on inside their vast walnut curves when they don’t quite realize which part is lit up! When limerence kicks in, limerent is already addicted to LO, who, or the idea of who, occupies the limerent’s mind 24/7 in the front.”
Yes, that’s definitely what happens. You describe the behavioural reaction inside the limerent’s head very well I think. A light bulb subtly switched on. Or maybe not so subtly switched on… 😆
“When limerence kicks in, limerent is already addicted to LO …”
I’ll requote this part of your longer quote because it is so apt. Yes, the problem is already pretty advanced by the time the limerent realises they have a problem.
The limerent doesn’t really “pick” or “choose” their LO, in other words. The limerent can only acknowledge feelings that are already simmering away in the subconscious, and maybe rising to a boil. At best, the limerent can “pick” the person who is already glimmering at them. Not really a fair competition, since there’s only one competitor! 😉
“I still don’t see how limerent, who is supposed to feel (in)passionate about things or people, could date non-glimmered-people — mostly appear dull in limerent’s eyes. Even if they could manage for a little while, then their imaginary brain tends to slip into the altered state of limerence — e.g. seeing colorful hola in those non-glimmered LOs.”
This has been my experience, too. However, now I’m thinking that “The Glimmer” is a very unreliable indication that someone is “mating material” – not least because the glimmering individual may not be interested!! 😆
“Again, the glimmer often comes when one is at least expected, or at one’s low state.”
Yes, this is a very interesting point. But I also think age/stage of life might play a part in the formation of limerence. For example, it would be logical for a lot of people to experience limerence just after puberty, as Dorothy Tennov herself suggests, because that’s when the hormonal surges in young adult bodies are guiding the sexes towards mating anyway.
Also, limerence in midlife could be seen as quite natural if one has been widowed, separated, or divorced. I.e. one is still young enough to want romance, and one doesn’t have a partner. It might be somewhat natural although not strictly moral for married people in midlife to experience limerence too, simply because limerence for the original partner has run its course as far as biology is concerned, and the brain primes itself to start the whole cycle over again. 🤔
“How could the limerent is in the altered state of limerence if they don’t have an LO? What would they crave for? What’s their highs or lows? Your hypothesis doesn’t exist.”
Hahaha! I would like to disagree respectfully, although I’m probably wrong. Dorothy Tennov says in her book that the limerent must be “in a state of readiness” to fall into limerence. I’m assuming this is a state of biological readiness? So, to my mind, there must be a small window of time prior to The Glimmer occurring, a small window where the limerent is “ready to fall” but “hasn’t fallen yet” i.e. because the LO hasn’t shown up on the scene yet.
But you’re right – without an LO, there is nothing to crave apart from maybe love in general, and one wouldn’t be oscillating between ecstasy and despair because there’s no LO to take behavioural cues from. So, really what I’m proposing is the existence of a “pre-limerence state” – a state of pre-addiction, if you will.
“Do limerents have criteria for non-limerence dating?”
I think the limerent criteria for dating is emotional reciprocity – reciprocation of equally intense feelings, and that’s pretty much it. Non-limerents might be thinking about things like money, religion, lifestyle, number of offspring desired, etc – a more practical criteria based on goals the couple wishes to achieve together. LImerents are more likely to be caught up in enjoying the hormonal fireworks show, which is not a very good indicator of long-term compatibility.
“A light bulb subtly switched on. Or maybe not so subtly switched on… 😆”
My light bulb was always turned on quietly, like silent click in the brain, in 5 seconds…
“At best, the limerent can “pick” the person who is already glimmering at them. Not really a fair competition, since there’s only one competitor! 😉”
That’s what happened with my LO #3, #6, which both were classical narcissists. Their love-bombing was strong, so without a glimmer I was “lured” in. Then my limerent mind still slipped into limerence without that genetic or genomic pair-bonding drive, because those Narc’s eyes were not just focused on one limerent, but pulling and pushing as many as they could spot.
“now I’m thinking that “The Glimmer” is a very unreliable indication that someone is “mating material” – not least because the glimmering individual may not be interested!! 😆”
But in kingdom of animals, a glimmering LO might indicate his or her genetical potential/power for healthy mating and bonding, regardless if they’re interested in those limerents’ highly sensitive eyes. After all, our animal instinct is still very alive within all of us, only that most human societies legalize one marital partner at a time, thus “sufferings” of millions of unrequited limerents or non-limerents.
Since limerents crave for emotional bonding or reciprocation sometimes more than sexual connections, I believe limerence can happen at all ages. Based on DrL’s article, it does not have direct correlation with testosterone level. Anyway, emotional and sexual bonding are located in different parts of the brain, limerents may crave one kind over the other, e.g such asexual limerents.
“So, to my mind, there must be window of time prior to The Glimmer occurring, a small window where the limerent is “ready to fall” but “hasn’t fallen yet” i.e. because the LO hasn’t shown up on the scene yet.” So, really what I’m proposing is the existence of a “pre-limerence state” – a state of pre-addiction, if you will.”
Yes, I agree that such a pre-limerence state exist either before or after the glimmer set it. I had such a state lasting for 9 months after the glimmer and before the beginning of a very mild limerence.
“I think the limerent criteria for dating is emotional reciprocity – reciprocation of equally intense feelings, and that’s pretty much it. ”
That’s IT! All my life since 4, this elusive, acute felt desire to get and feel that deep emotional bond is nudging and ebbing in my core… Perhaps it’s just one big consequence of cptsd, which involves unavoidable issues such as abandonment melange, OCD, limerence, social shyness/awkwardness, lack of confidence, of belonging to anywhere or anyone — a lone wolf syndrome. That’s a bigger battle ground than just limerence itself.
@Snowphoenix.
I always enjoy the intellectual rigour of your responses. I feel that “arguing” with people isn’t proper social behaviour, and makes people with strong sensor and/or feeling preferences uncomfortable. However, as an intuitive thinker, sometimes it is a delight to argue with someone who states their mind in an elegant, restrained manner and looks at argument as a refined sport, as I do. I guess you get your debating skills from bickering (lovingly I presume?) with your father… 😉
“My light bulb was always turned on quietly, like silent click in the brain, in 5 seconds…”
I do think limerents in general try to hide the strength of their interest in LO from LO, until reciprocation is certain. So a subtle light would make more sense than a brilliant blaze. To borrow a phrase from the Bible, limerents “hide their light under a bushel” – the light of their overwhelming desire/attraction to LO. 🤔
“But in kingdom of animals, a glimmering LO might indicate his or her genetical potential/power for healthy mating and bonding, regardless if they’re interested in those limerents’ highly sensitive eyes. After all, our animal instinct is still very alive within all of us, only that most human societies legalize one marital partner at a time, thus “sufferings” of millions of unrequited limerents or non-limerents.”
Honestly, I couldn’t agree with you more. People who end up as LOs time and again may have very high mating value in general (in addition to some quirky, unpredictable traits). However, that doesn’t make them the right choice for the limerent. Also, since human beings live in civilisation, I think we need to tailor the worst of our “animal instincts” to fit in with the values of civilisation. I feel that serial LOs are individuals who are not strictly playing by the rules of the game, and yet they bend the rules so skilfully they cannot be held to account. 😉
“Since limerents crave for emotional bonding or reciprocation sometimes more than sexual connections, I believe limerence can happen at all ages. Based on DrL’s article, it does not have direct correlation with testosterone level. Anyway, emotional and sexual bonding are located in different parts of the brain, limerents may crave one kind over the other, e.g such asexual limerents.”
Yes, limerence doesn’t seem to have any direct correlation with testosterone levels. I’m just wondering about what might make levels of desire drop in someone who is aging. Limerence is a very curious thing. Limerence can ramp up sexual desire, and yet testosterone doesn’t seem to be the sole cause of that increase in desire. Human biology doesn’t seem to work in a linear fashion. It seems that many, many factors are at play in any biological process.
I’m 40 years old, for example, and I feel like my body has “settled down” at last, biologically speaking. My brain has also “settled down”. But does this new equilibrium I feel have anything to do with my overall levels of testosterone declining? Or does this have something to do with exiting the altered state of limerence? Of course, my testosterone levels might be dropping as a direct result of exiting the altered state of limerence. It’s very hard to establish genuine cause and effect with these sorts of things… 🤔
I’m really happy to be exiting the altered state of limerence, as a matter of fact. I feel I can be around very attractive individuals of the preferred sex, and platonic bonding can actually take place, because there’s no suppressed desire bubbling away in the background, and hence no valid basis for self-consciousness. I never thought I’d get to a stage where “gorgeous, charismatic males just don’t affect me that much”. I can share space with them without turning into mush. 😉
“Yes, I agree that such a pre-limerence state exist either before or after the glimmer set it. I had such a state lasting for 9 months after the glimmer and before the beginning of a very mild limerence.”
I think the chief characteristic of this pre-limerence state in an increased awareness/interest in the physical attributes of others (usually of the preferred sex), minus the truly debilitating mood swings. One is “window-shopping”, if you like, but one hasn’t settled on anything one would like to buy. 😆
“That’s IT! All my life since 4, this elusive, acute felt desire to get and feel that deep emotional bond is nudging and ebbing in my core… Perhaps it’s just one big consequence of cptsd, which involves unavoidable issues such as abandonment melange, OCD, limerence, social shyness/awkwardness, lack of confidence, of belonging to anywhere or anyone — a lone wolf syndrome. That’s a bigger battle ground than just limerence itself.”
Very, very interesting perspective. I wonder if all limerents feel “a bit different” from a young age? I wonder if all limerents struggle to connect fully with their peers, or with the pastimes that engross their peers? I feel that the solution to limerence for some people would involve relinquishing the “lone wolf” identity.
I think limerence itself and not other mental health issues produces those sensations of being “under siege”, “emotionally embattled”. “living in a metaphorical war zone”, etc. One’s hormones have really gone haywire. So much of the “conflict” one feels deep within oneself isn’t actually real conflict. One is fighting the monsters in one’s own head, and not authentic adversaries. 😉
Basic gist (theme) of Sammy’s argument: intensity isn’t compatibility. 😜
“I feel that serial LOs are individuals who are not strictly playing by the rules of the game, and yet they bend the rules so skilfully they cannot be held to account. 😉”
@Sammy,
I said this very same thing about LO, early on in the game. I could just tell. By the way she goes about her day, her demeanor, that she plays by a different set of rules. It’s like it’s almost just a part of who she is. Almost like by default. I mean, I can totally see this, but I often wonder is she even aware of it? That whole skillfully bending the rules thing. It’s crazy but so obvious to me.
“I said this very same thing about LO, early on in the game. I could just tell. By the way she goes about her day, her demeanor, that she plays by a different set of rules. It’s like it’s almost just a part of who she is. Almost like by default. I mean, I can totally see this, but I often wonder is she even aware of it? That whole skillfully bending the rules thing. It’s crazy but so obvious to me.”
@MJ.
Yes, I think “playing by a different set of rules to most people” is probably a characteristic of many LOs. So trying to interpret that person’s true intentions is ultimately futile, and will only lead to frustration. Best to turn one’s mind to other things…
Lucy (a neuroscientist colleague of Dr. L who has a website called “Neurosparkle”) says that LOs may flirt and enmesh with us early on in the interaction, and then resume a neutral stance. So there’s that early hope and a lot of uncertainty, and I guess the brain gets stuck on wanting more of the seemingly promised “good stuff”.
When I was in high school, I led a girl on a little bit. It wasn’t really intentional or malicious of me. I think I was just really immature at the time, knew next to nothing about sexuality, and viewed “romantic love” as a big game. I also assumed that everybody else in the world viewed “romantic love” as a big game.
In other words, there wasn’t any serious intention behind my words and actions. For example, I gave the girl a few gifts, wrote the girl a few generic love poems that weren’t really about her specifically, and asked her to the school formal. But I didn’t want to date her or start a serious relationship with her, and she may have assumed that my initial “approach” (which I didn’t even view as an approach) was going to lead to bigger things i.e. coupledom. (We were both 17 at the time, and many of our peers were starting to pair off).
At the same time, also in high school, I became limerent for a male classmate. He certainly didn’t write me any poems or invite me to any dances. But he looked at me with what seemed to be goo-goo eyes from time to time, and was quite happy to invade my personal space, as if he didn’t recognise any boundaries existing between him and me. (He had astonishingly poor boundaries, in other words. However, these poor boundaries didn’t indicate romantic interest).
I feel a bit bad about what happened in high school, looking back. I can see I may have hurt the girl’s feelings, or prompted her to feel excitement/anticipation over nothing. I may have also caused her acute feelings of embarrassment when no fairytale romance ever materialised.
On the other hand, I have my own grounds for grievance. I became quite besotted with a male who gave me no genuine signals- only some odd body language and some mischievous remarks. I think he enjoyed validation from me, although I don’t really know why. (Perhaps he enjoyed teasing the “shy boy in class” who always looked at him in such awe? Maybe such teasing constituted a “most excellently funny joke” to him? And who can blame him, really?)
I think people whose personalities tend toward the shyness/anxiety can easily feel overwhelmed by pleasant attention from some attractive person, and the infatuation sort of develops from there. I don’t think many LOs are that aware of their odd/quirky behaviour. I think they probably just enjoy the validation they get, and don’t understand the full effects of their behaviour on others. So bitterness/unforgiveness also appears to be a waste of time…
I have spent the last twenty years feeling tormented about what went down in high school, so I’ve certainly paid the price (in stress and worry) for any game-playing on my part, even if that game-playing was innocent and unintentional. Furthermore, I’ve learnt the importance of being sincere when it comes to affairs of the heart, because people’s feelings can be so easily bruised. I could come up with a million excuses for doing what I did. But the truth is, at the time, I wasn’t quite sure why I was doing what I was doing. 🙄
Thanks Sammy. I just gotta tell you, I’m always fascinated by your insight here. I identify so often with what you write about. Yet if I spent all the time I wanted to respond to you about, I’d never get anything done.. 🤣🤣🤣
I save it for the really good ones like this.
LO definitely isn’t aware of her odd, quirky behavior, but I’m pretty sure likes my validation..
@MJ @ Sammy
“I feel that serial LOs are individuals who are not strictly playing by the rules of the game, and yet they bend the rules so skilfully they cannot be held to account. 😉” @Sammy
@ MJ: lucky you that your LO “definitely isn’t aware of her odd, quirky behavior”; mine IS fully aware of what he’s doing and does it so skillfully with a high-moral mask of “dutiful father and faithful husband” (w/ a secret LO, too). So I can’t get too close to him as a “friend” or run away in the limited office space, all because he “likes to be liked” (his own words) by both men and women — ALL! I see he’s walking around extracting affection and admiration from particular women, his good social skills made him able to chat charmingly and “humbly” literally with anyone from janitor to president. (A colleague told me that he doesn’t like confrontations in meetings, avoiding arguments even for a right cause)
@Sammy: the charming, social Sensor LO is the most skillful game player I’ve ever encountered, thus so hard to get away. With my fury (after 5 failed LC/NC), I even verbally attacked his narc behaviors (in well-edited letter) for lying, misleading, and repeatedly hoovering me — I thought it would “kill” any further interaction with him last Fall; yet he still smiled at me and waited to chitchat me in public; how much “likes” one needs in order to feel “secure”? I’m quite forgiving (like my Granny and Dad), and NC of a period only made me remember “good stuff” of LO (or anyone) and forget bad ones.
I’m still baffled why such a game player or Sensor, who seems to have it all, would not let go of me who is a socially awkward nobody, and who doesn’t care about a superficial friendship — I frankly told him so in writing. After coming to LwL, I realize more that I can’t stay in this bizarre “relationship” between 0%-100%, which just continue feeding limerence, even with my full awareness. Nowadays only my meditation is able to curb down its intensity, melancholy and despair…
What could I do with your profound insight?
“Thanks Sammy. I just gotta tell you, I’m always fascinated by your insight here. I identify so often with what you write about. Yet if I spent all the time I wanted to respond to you about, I’d never get anything done.. 🤣🤣🤣”
@MJ.
That’s okay, buddy. I don’t really write to get responses. I write to clarify things in my own mind. I find that when I explain something to someone else, difficult concepts suddenly become clearer to me too. It’s like I can’t claim mastery over a subject until I’m capable of teaching that subject to someone else in a way that’s easy to digest. 😉
“… the charming, social Sensor LO is the most skillful game player I’ve ever encountered, thus so hard to get away.”
@Snowphoenix.
The conclusion I’ve reached after a lifetime of reflection is that one can’t alter the behaviour of a tricky LO. All one can do, as a limerent, is explore ways to temper one’s own desire for that person.
There are a handful of ways to temper desire that I know about:
(1) Sublimate that desire by channelling it into other activities that don’t involve LO i.e. the purposeful living that Dr. L advocates.
(2) Transference. (Getting a new love object to obsess over). Transference doesn’t solve the problem of limerence in the long run. Transference only “kicks the can further down the road”, as suggested in the article Nisor shared a few weeks ago.
(3) Finding intriguing ways to manipulate one’s own body and brain into feeling less desire overall, possibly by becoming an expert in understanding one’s own triggers.
I have personally gone with route 3, which is not the approach this blog advocates, and is unlikely to work for most people. I don’t recommend it. However, I have always “marched to the beat of my own drum” in most things, being a bit of an eccentric. 🙄
I wanted to know why I was so susceptible to the charms of my LO in the first place. It seems like I was raised by a narcissistic mother, and she had a particular way of relating to me – which was, of course, narcissistic. However, I desired my mother’s attention and approval very much, while resenting her for “not playing fair” in the way she doled out that attention and approval. (She only paid attention to me when she felt like it, or when it gratified her to do so).
My male LO was also narcissistic. It’s spooky to think about, but I think he even had the same nose and eyes (profile) as my mother, so no wonder illusion of “instant chemistry” was there i.e. the sensation of “I’ve definitely seen this face before, but where?”
In human mate selection, I believe the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. All human beings fall in love with partners that bear some resemblance to parents/early caregivers, either in terms of looks or personality, or in terms of both looks and personality. Except limerence isn’t love, though it feels very much like love in the early stages. Limerence is an infatuation that deepens into obsession if it’s not handled very, very carefully.
I think limerence for a narcissistic LO, for me at least, was an attempt to win once and for all the power struggle with my narcissistic parent – to finally force that narcissistic parent (or the doppelganger of that narcissistic parent) to pay attention to me and treat me like a human being. Of course, this project was doomed to failure, as narcissistic people play by their own rules. Still, I learnt a great deal about myself in trying to one-up my substitute narcissistic parent.
At some point, we have to detach from the power struggle with whoever we’re fighting with inside our own heads, because the “good stuff” we crave from LO is actually the dopamine produced in our own brains, which technically has nothing to do with LO.
The average LO might not even be aware they’re giving us a dopamine buzz. All they know is that their attempts to push our emotional buttons occasionally work, so they keep pushing buttons. We need to find “healthy rewards” aka other things that release dopamine in our brains – other things apart from the thrill of romantic pursuit for a person who’s ultimately unattainable. 😉
@Sammy,
Thank you again for your thoughtful, insightful advice!
“The conclusion I’ve reached after a lifetime of reflection is that one can’t alter the behaviour of a tricky LO. All one can do, as a limerent, is explore ways to temper one’s own desire for that person.”
Totally agree! One can’t alter anyone’s behaviors, let alone tricky LO’s! I need to practice more of my Stoic mantras.
“(1) Sublimate that desire by channelling it into other activities that don’t involve LO i.e. the purposeful living that Dr. L advocates.”
I know it would work and have a plan, but keep procrastinating it because my mind is still hijacked by limerence.
“(2) Transference. (Getting a new love object to obsess over). Transference doesn’t solve the problem of limerence in the long run. Transference only “kicks the can further down the road”, as suggested in the article Nisor shared a few weeks ago.”
At this point, no other “love object” seems to be more powerful to get the attention of my ruminating mind. But continue reading LwL articles and responding some posts do help transfer my focus. You know how much I enjoy substantial discussion and debate as a “sport”. I used to like winning, but nowadays I truly want to understand and learn from different perspectives and insights, even verbal hammers directly on my fuzzy head — “not kissing on my butt”, as Marcia puts it. I was never a sensor, and empty flattery bored me to the hell…
(3) Finding intriguing ways to manipulate one’s own body and brain into feeling less desire overall, possibly by becoming an expert in understanding one’s own triggers.
That’s what my meditation is doing effectively. This morning upon waking up when I had stubborn rumination, I did two 30-minutes sessions, the 2nd one induced 10 minutes of “deep sleep” and some light sleep, when I thought I was “awake”. Afterwards, I was giddy — some dopamine was released.
I believe bodywork that target at symptoms regardless causes at the moments; I’ve been practiced different kinds bodywork off and on for over a decade. They calms down flared up sympathetic system regardless agitating causes. Yesterday I woke up with a LE-related sadness and despair (could not remember the dream). So I did almost 3 20-minutes sessions until a big cloud-knot in the front lope somewhere was suddenly dissipated, changed into warm qi, “showered down” through legs/feet. Afterwards, without any rumination left, I felt strong and peaceful all day along.
“I wanted to know why I was so susceptible to the charms of my LO in the first place. It seems like I was raised by a narcissistic mother, and she had a particular way of relating to me – which was, of course, narcissistic. However, I desired my mother’s attention and approval very much, while resenting her for “not playing fair” in the way she doled out that attention and approval. (She only paid attention to me when she felt like it, or when it gratified her to do so).”
My mother is a narcissist as I mentioned before; the only time she paid any attention to me was to criticize or physically punish me; otherwise, she’s gone either at work and escaped into her books. I think I pined for father’s attention, who had some narcissistic traits — proud and like to be the center. He intellectually teased me a lot, making me always lose, which I resented very much back then.
The charming and flirty doc Mom also wanted to be “liked” by all except me, the same as the current LO as he confessed. In August of 2018, I dreamt Mom and LO standing together side by side arguing with me and defending themselves, which deeply puzzled me for 5 years. No two people could be more different than Mom and LO, who are from different gender, race, generation, disposition groups, looking like from two planets! First, I interpreted it as that LO replaced Dad’s position — thus a surrogate father LO. then recently I saw it as that Mom and LO share the similar personality — a vain, leading-on Sensor. (Mom had several LEs cheating on faithful Dad).
“In human mate selection, I believe the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. All human beings fall in love with partners that bear some resemblance to parents/early caregivers, either in terms of looks or personality, or in terms of both looks and personality. “
“I think limerence for a narcissistic LO, for me at least, was an attempt to win once and for all the power struggle with my narcissistic parent – to finally force that narcissistic parent (or the doppelgänger of that narcissistic parent) to pay attention to me and treat me like a human being.”
I’m familiar with this theory through other self-help channels, it’s a part of cptsd affect, which we both have based on our stories posted here. I think the theory makes logical sense, although I still could not feel it psychophysiological or intuitively. Both Mom and LO are unavailable, but hold some power over me, making me pining for them. If I could keep putting them together in my head, I may get over LO sooner, since I’m already detached from Narc Mom 95% in my head.
“At some point, we have to detach from the power struggle with whoever we’re fighting with inside our own heads, because the “good stuff” we crave from LO is actually the dopamine produced in our own brains, which technically has nothing to do with LO.”
I agree in our head we need to stop fighting with or reacting to our past archetypical “enemies”, which took me 5 years to harvest some fruits of detaching from Mom mentally and emotionally. However, unlike with LO, there was no subconsciously genomic drive in dealing with Mom.
“We need to find “healthy rewards” aka other things that release dopamine in our brains – other things apart from the thrill of romantic pursuit for a person who’s ultimately unattainable”
The current LO is not average, but a hypersensitive Sensor; Interacting with him did stimulate a lot of dopamine production instantly even after 3 month NC, which makes it hard to be replaced. However, my meditations could help release dopamine, so I will keep practicing them to increase production.
“(3) Finding intriguing ways to manipulate one’s own body and brain into feeling less desire overall, possibly by becoming an expert in understanding one’s own triggers.
I have personally gone with route 3, which is not the approach this blog advocates, and is unlikely to work for most people. I don’t recommend it. However, I have always “marched to the beat of my own drum” in most things, being a bit of an eccentric. 🙄 “
@Sammy
Not sure what “is not the approach this blog advocates, an unlikely to work for most people. I don’t recommend it.” I wish I have some ways to “manipulate my own brain into feeling less desire” for deep emotional bonding — nothing else matters much.
My insufficiently developed brain was either filled with boredom between LEs or sparkling, colorful fantasies during a LE. I should’ve written a book during each LE, but my focus was always hijacked by the irresistible halo LO!
@Snowphoenix.
“You know how much I enjoy substantial discussion and debate as a “sport”. I used to like winning, but nowadays I truly want to understand and learn from different perspectives and insights, even verbal hammers directly on my fuzzy head — “not kissing on my butt”, as Marcia puts it. I was never a sensor, and empty flattery bored me to the hell…”
Well, to be honest, believe it or not, I’ve always felt a little bit uncomfortable with debating, and still to this day feel uncomfortable with debating. However, debating seems to be something that my brain is naturally very good at… 😉
I really don’t want to clobber people with my opinions, or pressure people to see things from my point of view, or anything like that. I’m a very live-and-let-live type of person. Ninety percent of the time I don’t care what people do with their private lives, as it’s simply none of my business.
Most of my life I’ve been either (a) terribly afraid of saying the wrong thing, or (b) too worried about hurting people’s feelings to say anything. I don’t believe in “giving it to people straight” necessarily. I think a bit of flattery can be valuable when sharing important truths – a dash of social lubricant goes a long way. 😉
Limerence, if anything, made me a little too blunt for my own good. My directness made people uncomfortable (or greatly amused). I’m working on reversing that trend, and going back to being my original diplomatic self! 😁
“I’m familiar with this theory through other self-help channels, it’s a part of cptsd affect, which we both have based on our stories posted here. I think the theory makes logical sense, although I still could not feel it psychophysiological or intuitively.”
When I was a little boy, my mother told me I was special. But she didn’t back up her words with actions. Her love for me was conditional. When I fell hard for my LO at sixteen, I “wanted to be special” to him. “Being special to LO” was the premise of the whole fantasy. So I was definitely re-enacting some relationship from my childhood, hoping to get a better result the second time round. I couldn’t see the parallel at the time. But now, at 40, looking back, I can see what my unconscious mind was probably up to…
“Not sure what “is not the approach this blog advocates, an unlikely to work for most people. I don’t recommend it.” I wish I have some ways to “manipulate my own brain into feeling less desire” for deep emotional bonding — nothing else matters much.”
Sorry. What I wrote there actually sounds a bit ominous. So I’ll correct it here. All I mean is that I didn’t get out of LE by practising purposeful living, because I didn’t know enough about purposeful living. I kind of just sat still, like a duck, and waited for the whole storm to blow over. It took over twenty years – not an ideal approach, admittedly, but it kind of worked in the end. I took an extremely passive approach to getting over limerence, and not a proactive approach – at least, not until the last couples of years.
I think, because I was raised Christian, I’ve always been super-concerned about the sin of lust. So I’ve always monitored my own feelings obsessively. “Do I still feel lust? Has it gone yet?” Now I think this obsession with monitoring my own impulses was a feature of limerence itself, and I don’t have the same desire to self-analyse anymore. I experience lust, the same as any other healthy adult human being, but no longer in a way that seems compulsive. 😉
The most important difference between my limerent self and my post-limerent self is now I’m more comfortable with being open about my feelings. Also, more comfortable with admitting my many past mistakes. So I’m not hiding behind a “mask of perfection” anymore or avoiding all the people savvy enough to see through my “mask of perfection” – which was, apparently, everybody! 🤣
Here is the right place to respond, I hope.
@Sammy,
The new messages roll out of the screen so fast that I only saw your above response here 4 days later….
DrL: Nowadays it seems more than 10 new messages are posted everyday in different time tones; could we have 20 latest messages link shown on the screen?
Sammy, Snow, Adam, MJ:
You’re getting too deep now. Wish we can meet personally and have a real dissertation on this subject, eh. Just for the sake of it.
“Being under siege”, emotionally embattled “, living in a metaphorical war zone”, etc.
Of course it feels you’re under siege, your peace of mind, that settled harmony you had before have been challenged now, and you’re forced to either join in, withdraw , or fight for a peaceful resolution, a compromise for both parties involved. (Sometimes 3 or 4 if both have SOs.)
I wish I had never had to get involved in this “war zone” of feelings… I want my peace of mind, stability, my
harmony with the universe I had before all this happened.
I think it’s all some kind of enlightening, awakening, discovery of who you really are and what you want from life. Once you’ve been conquered by this”force” (limerence ) , you’re doomed to either give in (if it’s reciprocated), or fight for that harmony .( that’s when we go NC when not reciprocated ).
We are protecting somehow our peace with the universe, that equilibrium that brings harmony within ourselves. That is, if you’re not in conflict within yourself and are fighting the “monsters” within your head. Too complicated for my poor ignorant mind.
Hugs to you all limerents.
“I wish I had never had to get involved in this “war zone” of feelings… I want my peace of mind, stability, my
harmony with the universe I had before all this happened.”
I couldn’t have said it better Nisor. Had I known LO would turn my emotional state upside down a year ago, I never would have given her second look.
I never saw this LE coming. It still amazes me..
Sammy, Snow,
“I’m just wondering about what might make levels of desire drop in someone who is aging”.
“Limerence can ramp up sexual desire”…
You bet, limerence ramp up sexual desire! It has nothing to do with age, my libido went sky rocketing during those ten months of frenzy, and my SO was not ”available “ for the ride…. I always had high libido though. I think it depends on each individual. So it shouldn’t be generalized, we don’t all fit in the same basket. My pharmacist tells me she’s surprised how old males, over 60 (and even younger) , come to her for help with medicines to help with their sexual deficiencies; desires they have but … age, you know, not everything works according to their desires…
You guys like to open the Pandora box…ha.
Best wishes, and enjoy the weekend. Hugs.
@Nisor
To me, libido (including drives for creativity) level or sexual energy/desire can be increased by body and mind — meditation and imagination. Something will not happen if it doesn’t in mind first; and body will not cooperate until it has skills to generate, energize, and move energy of all sorts within….
DrL does not believe that my kind of physiologically-effective meditation could increase dopamine release or move “heaven and hell” internally…. He does not know what he’s missing in this arena 😝 His insights in limerence’s mind and human psychology just enlightens me beyond word!
Without opening the pandora’s box, all fun and challenging conversations and debates would die, dulling Olympia Gods’ eyes without amusement of watching limerents crazily dancing down here….
@Nisor,
After a good session of my cocktail meditation, all limerence related anxieties, anger, jealousy, sadness, melancholy, despair would be lessened to almost zero degree, at least for a couple of hours. Besides occasional giddiness (produced by dopamine release), a profound peace and a cool head also stay within for a longer period.
“Right” mentality, self-awareness, and writing here are very therapeutic, but it’s not enough to me, personally. Physical workout and spiritual meditation are essential. I have been lwl for 2 months, and mediated for 2.5 month, feeling so much better despite daily battling with cptsd and limerence symptoms.
I have a faith that I could get over the last leg of limerence soon, despite LO is weaving his attractive face and charming words in front of me day in and day out… This is my individual experiment to see how the combination of “treatment” could make limerence under control, and perhaps even genuinely befriend LO without the unwanted thoughts and emotions underneath.
I wish you find your own effective ways to “cure” your limerence and feel better and better in all ways….
@Sammy,
“I always enjoy the intellectual rigour of your responses. I feel that “arguing” with people isn’t proper social behaviour, and makes people with strong sensor and/or feeling preferences uncomfortable. However, as an intuitive thinker, sometimes it is a delight to argue with someone who states their mind in an elegant, restrained manner and looks at argument as a refined sport, as I do.”
Thanks you for your valued compliment! Since young, I was intensely curious about and wanted to know WHY of everything. With parents always absent, I wanted a sibling, or bosom friend, so I could talk, argue, and pillow fight with her or him day and night. For all my life, being able to speak one’s mind freely, chatting, arguing, (dis)agreeing, discovering, teaching & learning “truths” (even just subjective) about each other and the world, caring affectionately (sexual connection is only bonus), is my ideal of friendship. I have sought it out in both men and women, but it was very much futile.
I never thought of arguing as a sport but truth seeking, as if absolute truths exist; so never thought frank arguing could “offend” people — it’s not about their personality or related to my affection for them. If I were not close to the other side or felt distrustful, I would not bother to argue with that person at all! I saw such kind of substantial conversation as a form of affection bonding, portrayed in male-bonding in literature or films.
In writing, I prefer speak in a quite “restrained manner”, because I think chosen words could carry their own connotations, or convey subtle, deeper meanings, or arouse a bit of reader’s imagination. It’s kind of like playing a word game. That’s what I look for in reading others’ writing.
“I do think limerents in general try to hide the strength of their interest in LO from LO, until reciprocation is certain. So a subtle light would make more sense than a brilliant blaze.”
This is so true in my case. I always felt unspeakable intensity as if holding a budding volcano inside, and for some reasons, instinctually guarded it as the most precious, private treasure. I never shared any of my LEs with any of my close friends, until right before I marred LO#4. I never understand why I’m so private in this regard. Never dreamt to talking about in LwL! But I view it literally talking with invisible ghosts in a theater of limerence, so fearing less. It’s truly a “ghostly” yet soulful dialogues, discussions, debates, discovers, solution requisitions, curing, healing, and renewal…. It’s 10 times more effective than all my therapistss effects put together!
“Honestly, I couldn’t agree with you more. People who end up as LOs time and again may have very high mating value in general (in addition to some quirky, unpredictable traits). However, that doesn’t make them the right choice for the limerent. “
You’re absolutely right here. Mating value has nothing to do with one’s personality or even one’s survival skills needed in society.
“Also, since human beings live in civilisation, I think we need to tailor the worst of our “animal instincts” to fit in with the values of civilisation.”
Aha! I would not use word “the worst” of our “animal instincts” to describe our sexual drive. Besides its reproductive value, it does bring us pleasure, promote physical and mental health, and inspire other creative drives inside us. Think of all forms of arts and beautiful creations in the material world! As DrL says, when our libido is turned on and stimulated within, there is “no limit” what one could possibly do just to impress an LO (he got a PhD for a LO): poetry, fine arts, music, architecture, literature, all sorts of invention, all of which were inspired by their internal muse — “beloved” LO (available or not).
Libido is not simply physical, but overall creative forces insdie each of us. It could create wonder after being awakened and inspired by a “high valued” LO, even if unrequited. Only most of us limerents are beaten up by LE’s destructive factors. I so want to know how I could make beneficial use of such stimulated libido and the “sublime” power of limerent passion!
“Limerence is a very curious thing. Limerence can ramp up sexual desire, and yet testosterone doesn’t seem to be the sole cause of that increase in desire. Human biology doesn’t seem to work in a linear fashion. It seems that many, many factors are at play in any biological process.”
There are still many mysteries in human biology; sex drive is not linked just to testosterone level — what about Tantric Yoga? There is no scientifc device to measure beneficial effects or QiGong’s (Kundalini’s) power out of long-term meditators and practioner. No one can scientifically answer: how acupuncture could produce anesthesia affects for surgery? — I watched a PBS documentary using acupuncture for a skull surgery 😱. Surgeon Mom herself performed an appendix removal with just two acupuncture needles as anesthesia — one on the patient’s forehead and one on the arm.
Back to our topic, in another post to Nisor, I stated that one’s libido could be increased w/o LO’s existence. I do not deny LO’s affect on some limerents sexual desires, but fulfilling emotional reciprocation seems to be limerent’s deeper focus. Pair-bonding or aroused sexual desire is the initial instigator/fuse on a subconscious level to seek out and bond with LO.
“ I’m really happy to be exiting the altered state of limerence, as a matter of fact. I feel I can be around very attractive individuals of the preferred sex, and platonic bonding can actually take place, because there’s no suppressed desire bubbling away in the background, and hence no valid basis for self-consciousness.“
Without that glimmer, I could be with anyone naturally and comfortably, open to befriend or platonically bond. Now, I want to reach a post-limerence state, and am still wondering how I would feel without that pre-limerence usual fridgerator-buzz depression or boredom. I’ve been definitely “renewed” during this lengthy, delusional, awakening, painful, and renovating LE.
“I think the chief characteristic of this pre-limerence state in an increased awareness/interest in the physical attributes of others (usually of the preferred sex), minus the truly debilitating mood swings. One is “window-shopping”, if you like, but one hasn’t settled on anything one would like to buy. “
Oh, you don’t know me! Once the glimmer sets in even quietly, “windows -hopping” automatically stopped for me — the world stand still! My system somehow was so fixated that 5-second glimmer always doomed it to its lamentable fate down the road. The worse, once the glimmer was in, my self-confidence was out: I instantally become that “ugly ducking” you talked about, while only seeing halo on LO’s tall head….
“Very, very interesting perspective. I wonder if all limerents feel “a bit different” from a young age? I wonder if all limerents struggle to connect fully with their peers, or with the pastimes that engross their peers? I feel that the solution to limerence for some people would involve relinquishing the “lone wolf” identity.”
My childhood was sadly impacted with traumas of various kinds, and I forget or repressed a lot of horrifying incidences or ordinary events but often remembered my emotions and thoughts, even at the age of 4. Tunnov believes we are born as (non) limerents, but I wonder if without cptsd, how a limerent would “normally” connect and bond with their peers. A “lone Wolf” is not born with, but conditioned by environment, e.g. cptsd or autism spectrum, etc. I think that the healing of cptsd would lead to the departure of the “lone wold” identity. I never wanted to be a lone-wolf (neither a jolly puppy), it was “forced” upon me.
“I think limerence itself and not other mental health issues produces those sensations of being “under siege”, “emotionally embattled”. “living in a metaphorical war zone”, etc.
You’ve so vividly captured the mental and emotional state of limerence, at least in me — “under siege” “in a metaphorical war zone” at daily or even hourly basis; every thought or emotion could be a life-altering force…. The worse, after a while, limerent brain treats such a state as norm, and becomes restless if there is less to ruminate or battle with, like a solider comes back from a war.
“One’s hormones have really gone haywire. So much of the “conflict” one feels deep within oneself isn’t actually real conflict. One is fighting the monsters in one’s own head, and not authentic adversaries.”
At the early, high stage of limerence, “emotional embattlement” has a lot to do with dopamine fix. But to me it seems to have become a limerent’s mental habit after a long while. Inner “conflict”, “internal ceassless dialogue with LO or oneself”, “joy, fear and despair”… just merry-go-around and around in our limerent’s own head. The monsters are mostly (not totally) not “authentic adversaries” as you and DrL point out; their images depend on our subjective, mental eye 👁️ — one day peachy; another Indio blue…
We all know what limerent’s eyes 👀 are like during limerence…. *sigh*… My eyes are cleared tremendously after coming to LwL, but has it become easier to exit painful limerence? Obvious not.
tldr – but people seem to be throwing testosterone casually into the mix. I had normal levels when my limerence started. However my body has not produced testosterone for two years. My limerence is still strong and unshakeable.
@friderco,
I think that genetic or genomic drive, not necessary testosterone level of time, that makes one glimmer at a particular LO. There is still a period between the glimmer to limerence; the latter is driven by craving for dopamine fix — pleasure of being with LO, which is neurochemical condition, not necessarily connected to testosterone level, either.
Snowphoenix says
SEPTEMBER 17, 2023 AT 5:50 PM
Yes, Snowphoenix. That seems to make sense, so far as I can tell……
f
@Sammy
I bet that at age of 60 if available, you’ll still going to limerent for some gorgeous male; wanna take the bet?
@Snowphoenix.
Okay. Well, let’s see if I can address a few of the many excellent points you raise, since I might learn something too in the process! 🤔
First, in response to Frederico’s comment, I wasn’t throwing testosterone randomly into the mix. The reason I brought testosterone up is that testosterone, in popular imagination, is linked to male sex drive. So in theory a man’s testosterone levels should correspond closely to a man’s reported level of desire.
Limerence seems to ramp up desire, not necessarily sexual desire, but all desire. Limerence seems to be activating a lot more chemicals in a man’s body/brain than just testosterone. I have talked to a few (gay) men who mysteriously have high sex drives and low testosterone. Something else in the brain seems to be activating desire. Question: is “libido” more than the sum of one’s sex drive?
“I never thought of arguing as a sport but truth seeking, as if absolute truths exist; so never thought frank arguing could “offend” people — it’s not about their personality or related to my affection for them. If I were not close to the other side or felt distrustful, I would not bother to argue with that person at all! I saw such kind of substantial conversation as a form of affection bonding, portrayed in male-bonding in literature or films.”
One of my male LOs didn’t like arguing and didn’t like talking about “controversial subjects”. (Apparently, everything I wanted to talk about was a “controversial subject”!) I wanted this man’s approval very badly. So, in honour of this man, whom I still feel a great deal of affection for, sometimes I censor myself, or at least “soften” the comments I make.
Sometimes, I feel, tact should triumph over truth. Sometimes, if you really love a person, you let them win the fight. Honestly, I wish I let this man win every intellectual debate we have, and we had a lot of intellectual debates, mostly at my instigation. (Now who’s the big softie?) 😉
“In writing, I prefer speak in a quite “restrained manner”, because I think chosen words could carry their own connotations, or convey subtle, deeper meanings, or arouse a bit of reader’s imagination. It’s kind of like playing a word game. That’s what I look for in reading others’ writing.”
Yes, I enjoy talking/writing in a “restrained manner”. But, by “restrained manner”, I think I’m referring to “liberal use of irony” and “comedically long-winded ways of avoiding the indelicate”. I think one of the chief joys of Jane Austen films, books, etc, is the “restrained” dialogue between characters i.e. lots of irony/subtext. Middle-class snobbery at its best and most entertaining! 😆
“Libido is not simply physical, but overall creative forces insdie each of us. It could create wonder after being awakened and inspired by a “high valued” LO, even if unrequited.”
I agree with this, but don’t fully understand how the process works. Tennov says that limerence is a “potentially inspirational” state of profound romantic infatuation, so the libido is definitely involved. Limerence is the mental or spiritual side of human sexuality…
“Aha! I would not use word “the worst” of our “animal instincts” to describe our sexual drive. Besides its reproductive value, it does bring us pleasure, promote physical and mental health, and inspire other creative drives inside us. Think of all forms of arts and beautiful creations in the material world!”
Well, um, thank you for disagreeing with me! Your point of view is refreshing, and actually makes me feel better. My whole life I’ve gone the Apollonian route of “sublimate, sublimate, sublimate” versus the Dionysian model of “eat, drink and make merry!”.
Honestly, I think the core neurosis in my personality is my difficulty in fully accepting the naturalness of sexuality. I don’t think this difficulty stems from religious indoctrination. I think this difficulty stems from an inability to believe that I’m attractive to other people, a kind of “fatal false modesty”.
In essence, I’m in denial about any potential “animal magnetism” I may hold for other humans, and apparently I possess quite a bit of animal magnetisim. Nor am I talking about just looks, but about the things that people do completely unconsciously with their eyes, mouths, hands, etc. Apparently, I’m a natural flirt, but I’m not even aware that my body is giving off flirtatious signals. As I grow older, I realise I have to integrate attractiveness into my self-concept.
“Without that glimmer, I could be with anyone naturally and comfortably, open to befriend or platonically bond. Now, I want to reach a post-limerence state, and am still wondering how I would feel without that pre-limerence usual fridgerator-buzz depression or boredom. I’ve been definitely “renewed” during this lengthy, delusional, awakening, painful, and renovating LE.”
I’m in two minds about limerence. On the one hand, I’m glad I went through the experience, and survived. On the other hand, I’d strongly recommend other people stay away from limerence for their own good. So I don’t know what’s going on… Protective big brother instincts perhaps? 🙄
“My childhood was sadly impacted with traumas of various kinds, and I forget or repressed a lot of horrifying incidences or ordinary events but often remembered my emotions and thoughts, even at the age of 4.”
I’ve been having a lot of flashbacks recently to being a young child at the local shops with my mum. So maybe that is the stage of life any trauma occurred? Maybe I was just really lonely at the point in my life, and starting inventing imaginary friends, and the fantasies become more sophisticated as I continued to mature? I don’t really have anything against my mother other than the fact that she didn’t really mirror me. I think I craved emotional mirroring above all else.
“You’ve so vividly captured the mental and emotional state of limerence, at least in me — “under siege” “in a metaphorical war zone” at daily or even hourly basis; every thought or emotion could be a life-altering force….”
Hm. What limerence actually felt like for me at times was a constant flow of images and colours and really strong emotions/sensations – not all of them positive. It was like living in a dream or a piece of music or a perpetual rainstorm that never let up. The flow of images and colours and emotions/sensations just never stopped.
Sometimes, this altered state of limerence could be beautiful. Other times, this altered state felt agonising. But I think it’s fair to say it’s very hard to relate in a natural, relaxed way to friends and family while limerent, because one is cut off from the world and stranded inside one’s own head in a landscape that is alternately glorious and nightmarish.
During limerence, one does feel like one is on a cosmic quest. One often feels that one is searching for capital-T Truth, climbing some enormous mountain of meaning. It IS a religious experience on so many levels. Then, at last, the forward momentum stops and the whole dream starts coming apart like a ship that’s been shipwrecked. Basically, it’s euphoria-tinged impressions that holds the whole beautiful dream together. When the brain stops pumping out dopamine at such high levels, producing euphoria, you wake up.
“We all know what limerent’s eyes 👀 are like during limerence…. *sigh*… My eyes are cleared tremendously after coming to LwL, but has it become easier to exit painful limerence? Obvious not.”
Since recovering from limerence, I can now pick up on “sexual tension” (that heavy feeling in the air) between me and other people when there’s mutual physical attraction. I could never pick up on/identify this feeling before. I don’t know what criteria I was using to pick LOs. Probably a combination of good looks, kind gestures, and a chemical rush in the brain. I’m more grounded in reality now, more aware of other people’s reactions and feelings and motives. My judgement isn’t clouded by ecstasy nor impaired by despair. 🤔
“I bet that at age of 60 if available, you’ll still going to limerent for some gorgeous male; wanna take the bet?”
Only if his name is “Sammy”. I’m working on falling in love with myself. 😉
Hey, Sammy. You may want to read this if you haven’t already:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/testosterone-and-limerence/
“Hey, Sammy. You may want to read this if you haven’t already …”
@Dr. L.
Thanks for the link. Testosterone plays multiple roles in the human body and “isn’t a volume control for libido.” Ah, got it. 🙂
@Sammy
“Limerence seems to ramp up desire, not necessarily sexual desire, but all desire. Limerence seems to be activating a lot more chemicals in a man’s body/brain than just testosterone.”
I agree that limerence ramp us all sort of desires, one seems to want a new life, a leap to a new height, or a renew in some aspects… that’s my feels, which was unable to be expressed before LwL — such a soul liberating platform.
“(Apparently, everything I wanted to talk about was a “controversial subject”!) I wanted this man’s approval very badly. So, in honour of this man, whom I still feel a great deal of affection for, sometimes I censor myself, or at least “soften” the comments I make.”
Awareness of controversial and contradicting subjects help one ground to look at the world and its reality in much less colored-tinted, biased glasses, it’s a sure sign of maturity. I often felt disappointed when people, men or women, avoid talking about controversial subjects. Chitchat or superficial talks bores my mind to no end, except with LO.
“Sometimes, I feel, tact should triumph over truth. Sometimes, if you really love a person, you let them win the fight.“
My COO believes that discussing or debating about controversial issues would ruin harmony in one’s social life and in society. It is even considered “inferior” or immature if one always wants to “win” in conversations. “Superior” or mature men would let you win all the time without arguing with you at all. An example: two men are sharing drinks and debating a math equation. The 1st says 11+12=23, the 2nd 11+12=24. After one round argument, the first tells the 2nd, “you are right.” While asked why the first would give up his absolute correctness, he says “if I insist, I’d push my friend to the corner of admitting wrong, making him lose face. Then harmony is lost and I’d lose a friend. I know I’m right inside, that’s enough.”
“Yes, I enjoy talking/writing in a “restrained manner”. But, by “restrained manner”, I think I’m referring to “liberal use of irony” and “comedically long-winded ways of avoiding the indelicate”.
As I said before, I really like your way of writing, flowing like a river with “liberal use of irony”, “comedically long-winded ways of avoiding the indelicate” and any kind of bitterness about our individual or collective folliness, mistakes, misfortunes, and tragedies. It’s high literary skills to bring the imperfect world to our hopeful yet vulnearable eyes without too much stinging.
I really enjoy Jane Austen’s work that is full of “irony/subtext” without any bitterness, considering women’s social position in her era!
“I agree with this, but don’t fully understand how the process works. Tennov says that limerence is a “potentially inspirational” state of profound romantic infatuation, so the libido is definitely involved. Limerence is the mental or spiritual side of human sexuality…”
I don’t know how the process works, either; I knew it worked for me to certain level especially the current one, compared to all my previous LE. I think in my case, I was NOT so acutely pining about the unavailable LO’s words or acts in reality (no expectations in the beginning), my mind (heavily traumatized in childhood) just automatically and unawarely created this Phantom and filled him (no longer LO) with all sort of idealized characteristics, which in return gratified and satisfyied my deep desire for an imaginary pair-bonding and CREATIVITY —a part of libido force.
As we discussed before, that initial LE for a fleshy LO changed to a progressed LE for our internal creative self that was always there but sleeping — IT was waken up by an external LO (for this simply fact, I could not stay angry or LC/NC with him long) . Again, “it is our desire, not the desired, we are in love with.”— Nietzsche. I think this is how Tunnov’s “potentially inspirational” limerence manifests in one area. Our profound romantic infatuation instinctually pushes our libido to create beauty of some sorts in our individual life. It’s like a long-term bed-redden patient suddenly eager to get up for outdoor as soon as sensing recovering light shining on them.
“Well, um, thank you for disagreeing with me! Your point of view is refreshing, and actually makes me feel better. My whole life I’ve gone the Apollonian route of “sublimate, sublimate, sublimate” versus the Dionysian model of “eat, drink and make merry!”.”
My previous life in COO is strictly Apollonian, Dionysian model was demonized. It took me years to wake up Dionysus in me and let him stand side by side with Apollo. They both need to harmoniously coexist and balance inside us; it’s totally fine that sometimes one or the other leads and then switch their roles, depending on situatioanl calling.
“Honestly, I think the core neurosis in my personality is my difficulty in fully accepting the naturalness of sexuality. I don’t think this difficulty stems from religious indoctrination. I think this difficulty stems from an inability to believe that I’m attractive to other people, a kind of “fatal false modesty”.”
I have the similar neurosis steamed from COO and my cptsd, which made me believe I had some innate flaws that made me feel awkward and odd in social settings. I wanted to matter in LO’s life, but they neither bothered to openly discuss or debate with me, nor to caringly tell or teach me how I could better myself. I was sincerely curious and eager to learn from their merits and strengths that I lacked.
“In essence, I’m in denial about any potential “animal magnetism” I may hold for other humans, and apparently I possess quite a bit of animal magnetisim. Nor am I talking about just looks, but about the things that people do completely unconsciously with their eyes, mouths, hands, etc. “
I believe the theory that, like all inanimate objects, there is a magnetic field (in physics) in each human being, which attracts, rejects, or keep distance with other human beings. It’s related to one’s libido force, aura, and indescribable personality — your definition of “animal magnetism”. We all have that experience that we are intuitively drawn, repelled by, or at ease with someone when first encounter them. In COO, I was completely ignorant of such “animal magnetism” in me; in the “new” society, I become aware of it and still did not like unwanted attention. It is defined that people w/ cptsd dislike spotlight, which overwhelms their insecure self too much.
However, the recognized “animal magnetism” did not reduce a bit of my neurosis, nor any ex-LOs helped with the condition. Surprisingly, the current LE with its “inspirational” force, helped me a great deal in treating and better my “neurosis” because I have tired to reinvent and renew myself since 4 years before in 2019 after I got that biggest panic attack triggered by one of LO’s perceived “cruel abandoning” deeds. As I mentioned much earlier in LwL, ever since then I launched on researching and studying in philosophy and psychology for self-growth or to impresse LO (unsure if he cared at all, he said the stuff I walked about sometimes was hard to understand). I really did not want to repeatedly suffer from those unknown uncontrollable — cptsd and limerence. I wanted to reprogram my mind and rewire my neurons so I’d be able to control my own state of content and discontent.
“Apparently, I’m a natural flirt, but I’m not even aware that my body is giving off flirtatious signals. As I grow older, I realise I have to integrate attracmadtiveness into my self-concept.”
I was never a flirt, and never knew (still don’t know) how to flirt growing up in COO that sees female flirt only as slut. Even without flirt, I already draw much unwanted attention, so better to bury my head inside books. While not scared, I was naturally, sincerely curious about the world. Last Saturday, this big friendly French Bull dog jumped on me again and again in the street; his owner said, “he does not do this usually, it is your aura….” I had to give him a big pet. If understanding a bit more of males’ eyes nowadays, I still don’t know what dogs or horses see in my eyes or what they sense in my magnetic field.
“I’m in two minds about limerence. On the one hand, I’m glad I went through the experience, and survived. On the other hand, I’d strongly recommend other people stay away from limerence for their own good. “
All of us here have already experienced or are still in limerence; In most cases, it happened to one without being invited. So advice is little of use beforehand, and non-limerent folks won’t even understand your advice at all. Despite my physical and mental sufferings, I still appreciate my current limerence. EVERY COIN HAS TWO SIDES — a universal truth no matter in what culture!
“I’ve been having a lot of flashbacks recently to being a young child at the local shops with my mum. So maybe that is the stage of life any trauma occurred? Maybe I was just really lonely at the point in my life, and starting inventing imaginary friends, and the fantasies become more sophisticated as I continued to mature? I don’t really have anything against my mother other than the fact that she didn’t really mirror me. I think I craved emotional mirroring above all else.”
If you really want to find out how to define what happened and how they shaped the current you, perhaps you could go to an cptsd expert or online sources just for (self)-diagnosis, so your mind could stop wondering and focus on healing and other stuff?
“Hm. What limerence actually felt like for me at times was a constant flow of images and colours and really strong emotions/sensations – not all of them positive. It was like living in a dream or a piece of music or a perpetual rainstorm that never let up. The flow of images and colours and emotions/sensations just never stopped.”
Wow, that sounds really intense! Maybe you want to write a novel or short fiction about your limerence experience, and simultaneously boost your creativity. Your mastery of words could produce a piece of great art!
“Sometimes, this altered state of limerence could be beautiful. Other times, this altered state felt agonising. But I think it’s fair to say it’s very hard to relate in a natural, relaxed way to friends and family while limerent, because one is cut off from the world and stranded inside one’s own head in a landscape that is alternately glorious and nightmarish.”
Totally agree. This site is the only place where I could speak about my “unspeakable” limerence, while feeling increasingly relaxed as time goes by. It also serves as my limerence transference for now, better than another person or new LO.
“During limerence, one does feel like one is on a cosmic quest. One often feels that one is searching for capital-T Truth, climbing some enormous mountain of meaning. It IS a religious experience on so many levels. “
To me, that is a very meaningful, positive side of limerence.
“Then, at last, the forward momentum stops and the whole dream starts coming apart like a ship that’s been shipwrecked. “
You’re changing allegory images here. Without a consistency, a story can confuse you as a writer. Can you stick to possible images of coming down of a mountain?
“Basically, it’s euphoria-tinged impressions that holds the whole beautiful dream together. When the brain stops pumping out dopamine at such high levels, producing euphoria, you wake up.”
If you want to use dreams as metaphor, then we have to stick to dream qualities. Who could dream logically and realistically? However, limerence is daydream and fantasy, in which one’s mind still has some control as a screen writer, director, actors, and side roles…. That’s what happened with my fantasies — giving the Phantom my desired, idealized father role (much later a lover’s role), writing out his scripts, delivering his words and my lines of interacting with each other…. The amazing part of it is that my mind automatically did it with little difficult of contrivance, which I really believe stemmed from my extremely loneliness locked up in that weekcare for 2 years from 4-6. Emotionally ignored or abandoned children would only daydream rose petals and lollipops in order to erase or replace all memories of their pains.
“I’m more grounded in reality now, more aware of other people’s reactions and feelings and motives. My judgement isn’t clouded by ecstasy nor impaired by despair. “
I’m so happy for you and congratulations! To reach such a state is a huge victory after battling with so much unspeakable and undefinable pains of limerence. I still have some work to do in terms of judgment towards this LO, who still brings me dopamine fix and annoying pains — my semi-Buddhism and mediation are helping me manage them.. . The ideal Phantom inside me has quieted down a lot, since I have this venue to express my muddled thoughts and emotions.
Only if his name is “Sammy”. I’m working on falling in love with myself.
Interesting enough, this last LE is reducing a lot of my neurosis and making myself love myself much better than before LE. I guess some of my positive “Self” has been waken up by this both exhilarating and excruciating experience — contradiction inevitably produces changes!
I’ll respond your latest message later in the Coffee House.
@Sammy,
The new messages roll out of the screen so fast that I only saw your above response here 4 days later….
DrL: Nowadays it seems more than 10 new messages are posted everyday in different time tones; could we have 20 latest messages link shown on the screen?
Snow,
I’m pretty sure the Olympian gods are having fun at our expense. ‘ Poor creatures down there, let’s mess them up a little more so they can use their brains correctly’; instead of helping us.
Ahhh, that Pandora’s box have so many secrets inside…and tricks too!
I’m so glad for you that your methods of meditation are paying off. Well done! You’re young and have a life to live yet. I wish your limerence symptoms go away and leave you with a nice friendship with LO. That’s the subject in todays Dr.L post.
I left my thoughts there in a comment. Contrary of a friendship with my LO, I’d rather have sweet, sweet memories and let the rest be history…
You take good care of yourself, and have a great weekend.
Love this post!
Oh, there was a definite battle going on with my executive brain vs my limerent brain.
And, I’m half Viking so you can imagine how brutal it was!
I’m happy to report that things are simmering down, thank goodness!
The CEO is starting to earn her pay
I’m after a breakup with what, at least as far as I can remember, is a strongest LO in my life. I wish I’ve known about limerence sooner.
All the red flags were there since the beginning. They were there even before we first spoke to each other. I felt a mix of anxiety and euphoria I never felt before. I started to construct my life, my identity around her. I literally rewired my brain.
We started fast. Or rather, I did. I took a literal dive in her. She was honest with me and clearly surprised by my enthusiasm despite all the “red flags” her past shows. I think at one point she even tried to warn me that I might get burned by saying she feels I’m “too good for her”. I did not care. My CEO had no power, I completely silenced him. If anything, the thought that I’ll “rescue her” fueled my limerence even more.
Still, for the first few months, it was good. I felt like on drugs. I gave my 200%. She reciprocated but on a more “healthy” level. Someone from the outside would say that I’m just deeply “in love”. But I knew love has nothing to do with it. It was a desire for reciprocation. Consumation. I thought about her 24/7. I constructed a fantasy in which we are the happiest couple ever. Her flaws and problems I ignored. I didn’t really treat or think about her as a “human being” and she started to feel it at some point. I overreacted to anything she said. I got literal panic attacks just because she was TALKING to my best friend in a way I felt was superior to how she talks with me…I wasn’t myself. I had multiple relationships before and never felt something like this. I thought I’m going crazy.
My anxiety started to go up. I started to act out. The fact that she probably was fearful-avoidant and acted more distant and distant fueled that even more. After only 3 months of a relationship I already was doing things like I’ve never thought I’d do: stalking her, controlling her… that’s when the first big raptures started. She was hyper sensitive to that kind of behavior because of her past partners. She started to withdraw. We went into a avoidant-anxious spiral and we ended breaking up.
I have never felt so shaken after break up. I knew it was for good yet I felt like I no longer know how to function in the real world. I never attached to someone so much. Or rather, the idea of someone…
Weeks passed, she reached out and apologized. We started talking about getting back together. But at this point time my CEO brain was already back. Or so I thought. In the end, I decided to silence him once again and we got back together…
As expected, it went and ended the same way, the same amount of time. Except I feel much more heartbroken. And I am still obsessed. My therapist tries to understand why even though she was so not good for me. My friends try too. And all I can think is: limerence.
“If anything, the thought that I’ll “rescue her” fueled my limerence even more.”
T
I understand you exactly. She was a single mother of two daughters divorced from a man that cheated on her. I thought I could rescue her. Be and treat her like a man should. But unlike other female colleagues of the past and present I knew this woman was firing up something more in me.
Yeah the silencing of the executive brain and giving into the limerence (whether you know that’s what it is or not) is quite easy to give into. As you mentioned you start seeing this person as “more than human”. It is a hard high to come down from when you put LO on that high of a pedestal.
Not sure if you have found this post of Dr. L’s but it sounds right up your alley with your above statement. I know that it really resonated with me when I first read it.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-the-rescue-fantasy/
” I knew it was for good yet I felt like I no longer know how to function in the real world.”
It will get better. It took me 6 months after she left my life to find this community and learn what had happened to me. And an additional year to come to where I am now that I can move past this and salvage my marriage and life. I don’t know if you are in a committed relationship or not but recovery is possible depending on your SO. But you can find a great amount of help here between Dr L’s posts and the community’s comments. This place has been instrumental in me getting to where I am now. Which where I was …. let’s just say some of my early comments were down right scary to read now. So stick around if you want to. :thumbsup: