Today’s case study is from Ashley, a reader who is polyamorous and in a polycule with three partners. I’m going to confess at the outset that I find some of the terminology for these new social structures a bit confusing, so without meaning any disrespect, Ashley’s partners are going to take a bit of a backseat for this discussion as we focus on the limerence issues.
Here is the dilemma: Ashley recently moved back to her old state, and this allowed her to reconnect with an old friend who had stayed in touch with her through the years. He had a suggestion.
He wanted to start a Friends With Benefits relationship. He’s very casual about sex, because he had specifically grown his comfort towards that over the years, and I wanted to be like that too. I started hanging out him more and more, so we had sex more and more, but also got to know each other personally more and more. When I realized I had a crush on him, I told him, and he stopped being FWBs. While he genuinely likes me still as a friend, and didn’t want to cut off such a long friendship, he also was worried I was combining sex with emotion. He doesn’t want to have sex with people who think of him like that, unless he were to have a partner.
In the spirit of their initial agreement, Ashley accepted this change in the relationship status. But, there was a problem.
Him cutting off FWB status took him from crush to Limerent Object. It’s been over half a year, and it gets better sometimes, and worse other times. When I’m reminded of him having sex with other people, I get so jealous.
As a complicating factor, Ashley’s LO has a habit of collecting keepsakes from his lovers, and when she happened to see some of these it triggered intense anxiety. This is even more disconcerting for Ashley, as jealousy is an unwelcome and unfamiliar sensation.
Someone recently told me jealousy is when you feel like someone else is getting something that should be yours instead. But for me it’s like, I want other people to be sexual partners with him, I just want that to be me *too*.
The heart of the problem is that the rational decision to stop having recreational sex because of the development of an emotional connection has not stopped the feelings of attachment occurring. In fact, they’ve worsened into full-blown limerence. Ashley’s LO is part of her social circle, and so going no contact is undesirable and impractical – even more so, because it goes against the ethos of jealousy-free sex that Ashley, her friends, and her partners aspire to.
I’m just tired of spending what feels like half of my waking hours thinking about him in some capacity. It would be so much easier if he didn’t care about me, but he’s the kind of person who has a 100 friends and could tell you each of their life stories and knows how to comfort them. Maybe I just want to feel special, and can’t help but blend special and unique. But I feel very stuck, and would love advice.
The first thing I’ll note is that Ashley is in the opposite position to the majority of questions I get about polyamory. Usually, the scenario is that a limerent is in a monogamous relationship and wonders about opening it to accommodate their LO into their lives as an additional sexual partner. For Ashley, the problem is reversed – her LO became a sexual partner (with the consent of Ashley’s other partners), but is not willing to be anything other than a friend with benefits.
For monogamously married limerents, the hope is that consummating the limerent desire for their LO will satisfy the limerence. For Ashley, the limerence grew from that consummation – the combined intimacy of sex and emotional bonding. Clearly, then, some of the conventional devices that can help eliminate limerence have already failed. Consummation made it worse. No contact is impractical. Devaluation runs counter to her goals. Fundamentally, Ashley does not want to get away from her LO, she wants to either add him to her life as an additional partner, or desensitize her emotions and go back to a FWB set up. How realistic are those goals?
For the first option, it seems LO is not interested in becoming another partner in Ashley’s polycule. It’s not altogether clear from our correspondence, but it seems that LO is open to the idea of a conventional (presumably, monogamous) relationship with someone, at some point, but not now with Ashley. He also clearly has a lot of sexual partners, both male and female.
I’m going to be honest and admit that he strikes me as an emotionally avoidant extravert, and, quite frankly, a narcissist. His insistence that sex is conditional on emotional detachment is exacting and pre-meditated – as he had to intentionally “grow his comfort towards that” – but he also seems to conspicuously showcase his lovers. He’s communicating the idea that they are special to him, but they must not fall in love with him. A strange tension.
Regardless of LO’s foibles, he was open with Ashley about the terms of their relationship, and he has been equally transparent that he is not interested in becoming her partner. So, Ashley’s only real option going forwards is to try and re-establish a FWB setup, and suppress her limerent emotions. How realistic is that?
Sexual jealousy
Sexual jealousy is a complex emotion. At one level, as Ashley explained, it is about envy – you want something that other people have. If that was all that jealousy was, though, it would be a straightforward matter of self-discipline. The potency of the gut-wrenching, anxiety inducing, psychologically destabilising power of sexual jealousy suggests there is much more going on in the deep recesses of the mind.
Looked at from an evolutionary perspective, limerence is about pair-bonding. The desire for emotional and sexual communion with LO stems from fundamental drives – the combination of reward, arousal and bonding systems in the brain anchoring the euphoria of romantic highs to a specific person. At an intellectual level we can argue that if you have that connection, the fact that LO also has other sexual/romantic partners is immaterial. Sharing is caring. Unfortunately, the deep drives of pair bonding are not rational – at least, not at a human level (they do make sense from a reproductive fitness perspective).
Jealousy in the context of a pair-bond comes from fear of loss. The most important connection in your life might be in jeopardy if your mate is openly fraternizing with competitors. Their affections might get stolen away. You might lose their love. You might lose essential emotional and practical support. In our modern world we can see these fears as irrational, but we didn’t evolve in the modern world, we evolved in one where mate-loss could be catastrophic for survival of yourself and your offspring. That fear is visceral (and it also underlies the murderous anger of mate-guarding by males of many species).
Importantly, we don’t have the ability to will away these inherited drives. They bubble-up inconveniently while we are busy trying to organise our lives in the fashion that we want.
Emotional mismatches
This conflict between deep emotional drives and conscious decisions is at the root of a lot of romantic distress. One of the hardest challenges in life is balancing the potent emotional urges and instincts that compel us, against the rational decisions we make about how to live well. Sometimes this is a straightforward civilising effect – we overrule urges to rape, indulge vices, or ignore responsibilities because they cause long-term harm to others and ourselves. What’s more difficult are those choices where the outcomes are more nuanced or mixed. Where it’s not so obvious what the ethical choice is. Should we forsake others for fidelity to our marriage vows? Should we forgive infidelity in a remorseful partner? Should we be less sexually possessive? Should we leave a partner who’s broken our trust?
In Ashley’s specific case, she wants to be able to have bonding-free sex with LO, but her inconvenient feelings are spoiling the deal. Even worse, they also make her feel awful when LO withdraws. She’s caught in that worst of limerent traps: getting closer hurts, detaching hurts, staying in limbo hurts. The problem is figuring out what those different sources of pain mean, where they come from, which are the most tolerable, which could be lessened, and what would be the trade offs.
That brings us to the last major factor in navigating this emotional minefield: our own personal histories. As I’ve argued before our individual limerent “profiles” come from the operation of built-in neural systems that have been modified and sensitized by the circumstances of our own unique life stories. The neurobiology of person addiction is intrinsic, but who and what triggers it is decided by our formative romantic and sexual experiences.
Reading Ashley’s story as someone living a conventional, married life, I am struck by the psychological complexity of her situation. Many of the people in her life seem to have a complicated relationship with sex, which intersects in some cases with other anxiety and trauma experiences. Given that sensitive background, even the most sophisticated framework for ethical non-monogamy is going to eventually hit upon incompatibilities. The best efforts to accommodate everyone’s needs and vulnerabilities in an interdependent network of imperfect people can fail, and it often happens because someone has feelings that they don’t want to have – those situations where the heart does not do what the head wants.
That’s why, in the final analysis, I don’t think there is an obvious tactic that Ashley could use to rid herself of the limerence that is interfering with her life, while still remaining connected to LO. There are a lot of layers to the emotional mismatch between her head and heart – fundamental bonding drives, complex personal histories, loyalty to people and principles, and just stubborn, direct incompatibilities. It is very hard to have no-strings sex with someone you are limerent for. It is very hard to just be friends with someone you want to bond intimately with.
It comes, ultimately, to the fundamental heartache of unrequited limerence: we want something they can’t give.
So, at the end, when Ashley asks for advice, I think the best I can manage is this: there is pain in every choice. You’ll have to pick one. Understanding the origin of that pain – fear, loss, insecurity, trauma, shame – cannot in itself get rid of the limerence, but it can certainly help to identify a possible path forwards, by clarifying what it is that you are (or are not) willing to give up.
LO has set strict terms for your deal. Can you accommodate them? Should you accommodate them? Sometimes, it isn’t possible to negotiate a compromise. Sometimes, loyalties are divided. Sometimes, you have to prioritise yourself.
If you have the resilience, figuring out where your pain is coming from can help you discriminate between these options, and help you understand which deep drives should be honoured and accepted, and which should be overruled.
Good luck, Ashley.
No comment. Polyamory is a risky investment in the emotional system of an individual. We are sentient beings, therefore, attachments will occur sooner or later.
Proof is Ashley’s situation. My two cents, anyway. I said I would not consider commenting and here I am commenting on a subject I have no knowledge of. Sorry Ashley. Good luck and best wishes.
FWB is not really polyamory.
True polyamory (“multiple loves”) usually does involves attachment. For me at least, it does not mean having just sex with multiple people without any emotional involvement, even though these days, the word often seems to be used as an umbrella term to describe all forms of non-monogamy.
The media in particular like to portray polyamory as being all about sex. I guess that narrative is the more sensationalist one.
“Proof is in Ashley’s situation” is a very monogamous bias to this situation.
It seems like things are fine with her actual partners. It sounds like she may even have multiple FWBs, and things are fine with them.
It seems just the situation not okay only with one specific FWB. Allie’s comment is also correct – FWB is not the same as poly. Most people with an actual polycule I have met have strong, long term relationships, and sex may not even be involved. I think monogamous people cannot help but focus on sex a lot.
I hope this information is helpful!
Starting to read the article I thought that I wouldn’t be able to relate much, polyamory being something I‘d never consider or be able to pull through.
But then I realized that it does apply to me too:
„This conflict between deep emotional drives and conscious decisions is at the root of a lot of romantic distress. One of the hardest challenges in life is balancing the potent emotional urges and instincts that compel us, against the rational decisions we make about how to live well.“
Or, more simply, this
„It is very hard to just be friends with someone you want to bond intimately with.“
While Ashley’s situation is much more complex and more difficult to handle (my head reels just thinking of it!) I also have got this situation where my feelings started to mismatch the situation, and I try to force them back to a life with LO in it, on terms everyone is happy with and no limerence.
„I think the best I can manage is this: there is pain in every choice. You’ll have to pick one.“
I‘m still trying to avoid this, searching for an option without pain. I still don’t want to admit this is true, and, not being in such a hard place as Alice, I still think I can pull it off to get back to normal without too much forced pain involved. We‘ll see.
My personal thought is that Alice needs to be free of a certain view of her LO, see him in a more negative and neutral way (I also think he‘s a bit narcissistic, or something isn’t quite right how he handles the whole thing) and detach. I think it‘s almost beyond human ability to have a no strings sexual relationship with someone you are limerent for.
But then, with intensified contact she might come off him after while, seeing that the whole arrangement is kind of superficial for him and she‘ll never get what she wants because it simply doesn’t exist in this guy.
Still, that seems a dangerous path to pursue, getting intimate again only because of the slight chance of killing limerence by it…
My gut reaction is to detach and go very LC or NC for a whole while-he will understand it and if he’s real friend, will still be there as a friend afterwards- and go pursue other friendships and goals until she can see him more neutrally and as not that special.
But that always sound great on paper and is a lot more difficult in reality.
Frankly, I don’t know what to do in Ashley’s case, and I think/hope she will find the best solution herself inside herself.
Why do I keep writing Alice? Of course it’s Ashley, sorry🙈
“Clearly, then, some of the conventional devices that can help eliminate limerence have already failed. Consummation made it worse. ”
It’s not consummation that eliminates limerence. It’s consummation plus being with the person, over time, in an actual relationship where the LO is reciprocating. All barriers removed. All uncertainty removed. Slowly, the rose-colored glasses come off. The NRE dies.
So an FWB is not the path to end limerence. There are still barriers. Someone wants more. An affair is the same way. Still the barriers. Still the limerent wants more. In fact, both of these situations could make limerence worse.
I don’t see any other option for the LW but NC since she can’t add him as another partner. And also, because she has other partners, her time may be limited even if she could add him, so that could keep the limerence going. I’m not sure how that would work.
Marcia,
Now I think you are right, getting intimate with on a FWB basis wouldn’t kill the limerence because there would be still more to want (exclusivity, whatever), and jealousy wouldn’t end but get worse. I take my thoughts back that there’s a chance killing the limerence by more contact in this case.
The more partners she has , the more she’ll get involved in attachments of some sort. The best thing in this case is to go NC. and try to forget these kind of arrangements. You just can’t play with your feelings like that. You are liable to get hurt one way or the other. Be wise and examine yourself what it is that you really want ,
Ashley.
Marcia,
“It’s not consummation that eliminates limerence. It’s consummation plus being with the person, over time, in an actual relationship where the LO is reciprocating. All barriers removed. All uncertainty removed. Slowly, the rose-colored glasses come off. The NRE dies.”
I totally agree with you on this— emotional reciprocation is what limerents desire, consciously or subconsciously. Based on my LE #2, 4, 5, 6, consummation not only din’t elevate my limerence, but made it worse, because other side, all monogamous type, could not, or did not want to reciprocate emotionally. That’s why I was certain going for a PA without a prior EA would make my LE #7 worse….
Again, glimmer is dominantly evolutionary pair-bonding based (proved once more in my situation 😇 ), but NOT limerence. In theory, glimmer would not automatically downhill-roll into limerence if one knows how to rein one’s emotional desires/obsessions — acknowledging them without any judgments, bear the pain, explore their deep roots, talk/write about them with trusted people or “ghosts”, just NOT act on them — NC is probably the wisest action in this scenario.
Nisor: I also agree with you that we sentient beings always neurologically need and biologically seek some kinds of meaningful, emotional attachments, regardless we are monogamous or polygamous; they’re only on physical level.
If I were Ashley, I’d try to transfer my LE to one/some of her existing partners, at least temporarily. Unlike most of us, she is “lucky” to have several partners — a “brighter” side of the coin. Why dangling on one crooked tree, when there is a forest surrounding you?? Good luck!
Snow,
“I also agree with you that we sentient beings always neurologically need and biologically seek some kinds of meaningful, emotional attachments,”
I think some people can do FWBs and be ok, but I personally think the best way to do them is to keep them pretty short. They can’t go on and on or someone usually develops feelings.
However, if therer’s limerence involved … no, an FWB won’t cut it.
Also, there is something off with her LO. There’s not a lot of information, but I’m guessing he’s someone who’s a bit manipulative and likes to know people have feelings for him. He sounds like he may have a lot of “irons in the fire” or people who are pining for him, and he likes it. That’s a guess.
Marcia,
“I think some people can do FWBs and be ok, but I personally think the best way to do them is to keep them pretty short. They can’t go on and on or someone usually develops feelings.”
For me, FWBs can’t produce Glimmer no matter how long or how good it is; however, but it could possibly develop “love” feelings due to oxytocin or lead to a long-term relationship. I question whether it could ever lead to limerence, since Glimmer is absent — never happened to me despite perfect SE and superficially attractive dudes.
“However, if there’s limerence involved … no, an FWB won’t cut it.”
I’m convinced that FWB would make unrequited limerence worse, making the said limerent feeling like a “Sex Object” to the LO/F, at least to me. But once LE is gone, the said limerent could feel okay with the same xLO/F, like with my LE #5, which surprised me.
Typo: “but once LE is gone, the said limerent could feel okay in FWB with the same xLO/F”….
Snow,
“For me, FWBs can’t produce Glimmer no matter how long or how good it is”
I don’t know what you mean. No relationship — whether it’s casual like an FWB or serious– has ever “produced” glimmer for me. I was limerent first; the glimmer happened first. Sex didn’t produce the glimmer for me.
Now, sex can (certainly but not always) make me feel more bonded or become more attracted. I can think the guy is kind of cute and then have sex with him … and now I think he’s a hunk! Or I think of the guy as a friend and have sex with him… and now I’m starting to think of him as more than a friend (happened once; usually I don’t hook up with my guy friends).
But the relationship type doesn’t produce the glimmer. It’s there or it’s not. The only thing required for the glimmer is some level of reciprocation (for me, anyway).
Marcia,
“I don’t know what you mean. No relationship — whether it’s casual like an FWB or serious– has ever “produced” glimmer for me. I was limerent first; the glimmer happened first. Sex didn’t produce the glimmer for me.”
“But the relationship type doesn’t produce the glimmer. It’s there or it’s not. The only thing required for the glimmer is some level of reciprocation (for me, anyway).
I am not fully understand your passages here in response to mine; but I agree with you that glimmer is an independent thing, unrelated to relationships. In my LE cases, a glimmer struck first — the first sight thingy! the way ahead of a relationship or a full-blown limerence.
My glimmer always came from a stranger, a certain romantic type of men, when I was least expecting anything. Like you, no friendship, no xLoWB, no casual sex ever produced that glimmer, despite I tried to cultivate it with xLoWB, lovers, or single dudes seemingly so compatible by “logic”.
Unlike you, I could not have sex with my guy friends, especially when an unrequited LO existed in my head . I’d rather to keep platonic friendship, than risking to lose it due to sex.
I know it’s not very logical but I still could not help mix romance with sexuality in this era. I can’t imagine a romance without sex, but I am capable of having sex without romance — LO is excluded in the latter scenario. It’s just emotionally painful to sex with an unreciprocated LO.
Snow,
“I am not fully understand your passages here in response to mine”
Ha! I read your message again. I misread it.
“but I agree with you that glimmer is an independent thing, unrelated to relationships. In my LE cases, a glimmer struck first — the first sight thingy! the way ahead of a relationship or a full-blown limerence.”
Yeah, me, too. If not at first sight, than usually after the first interaction/conversation.
“My glimmer always came from a stranger, a certain romantic type of men, when I was least expecting anything.”
Me, too. There was a certain type.
” Like you, no friendship, no xLoWB, no casual sex ever produced that glimmer, despite I tried to cultivate it with xLoWB, lovers, or single dudes seemingly so compatible by “logic”.”
Yes, someone can’t “look good on paper” and have the right qualities and produce the glimmer.
“Unlike you, I could not have sex with my guy friends, especially when an unrequited LO existed in my head . I’d rather to keep platonic friendship, than risking to lose it due to sex.”
It only happened once. But the friendship was not so great that I didn’t mind risking it. And usually there’s no risk to take in that I’m not attracted to my guy friends. With him, I liked him. I thought it’d be fun. I wasn’t dying of love for him, but I did start to think of him a bit differently after the sex.
Marcia,
Now, we are on the same page, quite INFP twins on LwL.
“But the friendship was not so great that I didn’t mind risking it. And usually there’s no risk to take in that I’m not attracted to my guy friends. “
I could totally see that possibility. However, I tend not to keep a so-so friendship with guys; either they’re loyal, genuine friends/x-suitors with admirable and respectable personalities or just acquaintances; the former were/are not romantically attractive to me… but I am very warm and sincere with them, open to talk and discuss about all sorts of subjects, except my private “romantic” lives, which has been a mystery to them.
Great SEs did bring a temporary bonding experience, and I would have given a possible relationship a try with active efforts. However usually, the other side did not have enough zest, or a long-distance barrier existed, so that bonding feeling just died naturally.
Well, C’est la vie!
Snow,
“However, I tend not to keep a so-so friendship with guys; either they’re loyal, genuine friends/x-suitors with admirable and respectable personalities or just acquaintances”
I don’t know if I’d say the friendships were “so so.” They just weren’t BFFs. The only male BFFs I’ve had have been gay men. I think the sex thing gets in the way with straight men. They start making comments, etc.
I think one time I was the one interested (way back in college). Not wildly interested but enough and I didn’t want him calling me up and talking about the other women he was dating.
“but I am very warm and sincere with them, open to talk and discuss about all sorts of subjects, except my private “romantic” lives, which has been a mystery to them.”
Really? We shared a lot about our romantic lives with each other. I got their opinions on guys. Got their perspective. And I asked them a lot of questions about their experiences with women and sex. I wanted to get the male perspective.
“Great SEs”
I don’t know what “SEs” are.
Marcia,
With male friends from COO, we could never take about our private romantic or sexual life, it’s a taboo topic; the society over there is not “evolved” enough yet. On this side, I didn’t have many dude friends, except LO#5 who became FWB after my LE was gone and after he was heart-broken by a Polycule.
When we exchanged our dating life experiences, I even didn’t blink my eyes — zero ounce jealousy. I sometimes also told him about my psychological journey and all my previous LOs, except the current one. My ongoing emotion was/is always my private “possession”, not to be shared even with “nosy” therapists.
Talking about it here in LwL is like the Sun had risen from the West, which is only possible in a “ghost land”. That might be a key reason, for me and some, that LwL is helping heal our past wounds of all sorts. In this invisible realm, we limerent “ghosts” (not all) could fearlessly show our “shadow sides” that we could never or rarely do in our reality. It’s a Jungian’s scary individuation process shared (thus more powerful) by similar suffering spirits in the similar (as well as conflicting) psychological journey….
SE= sexual encounter/experience
Marcia,
Add: I never had Glimmer for LO #5 from a dating app, and a deep sympathy for him led me to LE later… So after the LE was over, it was not difficult to become FWB. No Glimmer for both #3 and #6, who are Narc and “picked” me up in public…. Glimmer struck only when I set my eyes FIRST on LO who did not know my existence, like Harriet to Berlioz.
I hope my new student will NOT become LO #8, I’ll call him Romeo for now. ⚡️ Last week, we set our eyes on each other simultaneously when he opened the door, so hopefully it’s not a real glimmer leading to a potential LE 😨
Snow,
“When we exchanged our dating life experiences, I even didn’t blink my eyes — zero ounce jealousy.”
I will admit I do have a tinge of jealousy. It’s my narcissism probably. Part of me wants them to want me.
“My ongoing emotion was/is always my private “possession”, not to be shared even with “nosy” therapists.”
I think that was a big reason for me to have guy friends. To share my dilemmas with guys and get their perspective. Men and women think differently. And to get inside their heads about women and sex. And people love to talk about themselves. Just ask a few questions. 🙂 I never really had a problem getting them to open up.
“Last week, we set our eyes on each other simultaneously when he opened the door, so hopefully it’s not a real glimmer leading to a potential LE 😨”
You’re not going to want me to say this, but it’s kind of up to you. Whether it becomes an LE is up to you.
I am so glad I walked away from that gym guy. So, so glad.
Marcia,
“I will admit I do have a tinge of jealousy. It’s my narcissism probably. Part of me wants them to want me.”
My inner child has always subconsciously desired my parents to want me, until this past December, when I realized I did not “miss” Father as much as before and felt like mothering Mother. My inner child has finally grown a lot, no longer need a surrogate-parent figure — I told LO about this last week, excusing myself from having gone NC/LC in writing with him since last June…
For other people, I only cared WHOM I Wanted (very masculine here), not the other ways around. Needless to say, only LOs’ affection I most desired. Without that glimmer, I could not care less about any other guy’s attention. That’s why I said I was never jealous of other women (even in all previous LEs), until this LE for the first time. I was not narcissistic at all in this arena, only too self-centered about my own heart, which would actively pursue & obtain a true love, but not be a passive Love Object.
“I think that was a big reason for me to have guy friends. To share my dilemmas with guys and get their perspective.”
I’m a bit of opposite of you here. I normally do not share with male friends (many of them are x-suitors) about my romantic life or sex, it’s too embarrassing! Plus, every man or woman has their individual tastes and perspectives in romance; one person’s view on your dilemma would be different from another’s, which one do you trust more? I would validate and respect whatever my self feels or thinks; then others would follow my suit.
I like making friends with curious mind (male or female) that intellectually and passionately enjoys exploring, discussing and debating with my mind and heart about all sorts of small or big matters in the world. A lot of people care most about mandate, superficial, or vanity stuff.
“Men and women think differently. And to get inside their heads about women and sex. And people love to talk about themselves. Just ask a few questions. 🙂 I never really had a problem getting them to open up.”
True that we think and behave differently, and I need to learn more about men. But I would not generalize anything out of limited views, this is highly individualistic area, everyone is unique despite some shared, common neurological or biological drives. Culture plays a huge role in this arena. “Men are from Mars, Women from Venus” still has its valid points.
Could you get your LO to open up? My LO’s lip is tighter than a zipper on skinny jeans! 😏
“You’re not going to want me to say this, but it’s kind of up to you. Whether it becomes an LE is up to you.”
I totally agree with you on this! But this time, if it is indeed a glimmer and Romeo is single, I want to see if I could stay in the rosy stage of a crush before limerence. I want to see, with so much LE knowledge we’ve learned from here, if I can prevent myself from slipping into another limerence.
Even if it’s impossible for a potential romance, then I just want to enjoy watching Romeo’s innocent, sweet, feminine face, and make him to do homework (he humbly said last Monday that he’d do all the homework I assign him, and I did). 😄
“I am so glad I walked away from that gym guy. So, so glad.”
I’m happy that you feel so good for your wise action!
Snow,
“My inner child has always subconsciously desired my parents to want me”
I don’t equate wanting my guy friends to want me with my parents. Maybe it is but the two aren’t connected in my mind.
“For other people, I only cared WHOM I Wanted (very masculine here), not the other ways around.”
I definitely felt that way to an extent, but I do have the traditional female desire of wanting to be wanted. The more guys whose lists I’m on … I have no problem with that. 🙂 As I wrote, I don’t want to be overlooked; I want to looked over. 🙂
“Needless to say, only LOs’ affection I most desired. Without that glimmer, I could not care less about any other guy’s attention. ”
I wanted my LO. At the height of my LE, he’s the only one I wanted. But I certainly wasn’t going to turn down any other attention.
“That’s why I said I was never jealous of other women (even in all previous LEs), until this LE for the first time.”
I sure was jealous. The only women I wasn’t jealous of were women I knew he wasn’t interested in (or suspected he wasn’t interested in).
“I’m a bit of opposite of you here. I normally do not share with male friends (many of them are x-suitors) about my romantic life or sex, it’s too embarrassing!”
I can’t be close with a friend if I’m not sharing that part of my life and hearing about theirs.
“Plus, every man or woman has their individual tastes and perspectives in romance; one person’s view on your dilemma would be different from another’s, which one do you trust more?”
That’s true. But I still don’t have the male perspective at all unless I talk to a man.
“A lot of people care most about mandate, superficial, or vanity stuff.”
Ain’t that the truth!
“True that we think and behave differently, and I need to learn more about men. But I would not generalize anything out of limited views, this is highly individualistic area”
It is, but it isn’t. There are still some generalities.
“Culture plays a huge role in this arena. “Men are from Mars, Women from Venus” still has its valid points.”
I have mixed feelings about John Gray. I can’t negate everything he says, but it also sounds a bit retorgrade to me.
“Could you get your LO to open up? My LO’s lip is tighter than a zipper on skinny jeans! 😏”
LOL. Nope, I could not. Lips, tight. Zipper, tighter. 🙂
I was a different person around my LO. I felt clenched around him. As clenched as he seemed around me.
“I want to see if I could stay in the rosy stage of a crush before limerence. I want to see, with so much LE knowledge we’ve learned from here, if I can prevent myself from slipping into another limerence.”
I hope you can. Although I have to admit, even with a crush, I’d probably do something stupid and try to push things forward (if I was getting some signals of reciprocation).
Marcia,
“I don’t equate wanting my guy friends to want me with my parents. Maybe it is but the two aren’t connected in my mind.”
I don’t equate it, or connect two wants together, either! I used the word “subconscious”. Because of my cptsd was not recognized or dissolved, when I met LOs, my unrecognized desire for that missed parental care was subconsciously transferred to LOs, since they dashed in appearing like a “god”, who seemed to be able to take all our troubles away, including those unresolved traumas.
During this whole time of 7 months in LwL, I was babbling about how LO played a surrogate parent role, stronger enough to cover that pair-bonding instinctual need. You were after you LO naturally for a pair-bonding PA, I was after my LO bizarrely for an EA of a parent — the Phantom. If that cptsd did not get recognized and eased, the Phantom would always stand between a LO and me! That’s why my LE is a “peculiar” case, although Glimmer was the same as yours, coming from instinctual pair-bonding desire for a certain type of men.
“I definitely felt that way to an extent, but I do have the traditional female desire of wanting to be wanted. The more guys whose lists I’m on … I have no problem with that. 🙂” As I wrote, I don’t want to be overlooked; I want to looked over. “
In my COO and my family, making one’s OWN efforts to achieve goals is highly valued, instead of being given without any labors. (Probably why I get bored in three days with anything purchased, but would keep all crappy stuff handmade or designed or written by myself). We were encouraged to be equal with men, to be “women warriors” to compete with boys/men or self-protective from possible bullies by bad boys/men.
Also somehow I was brought up by some Eastern traditions to think that on men’s list or held by their eyes was dangerous (we don’t want to on lists of unwanted/bad guys, right?), it would make one an OBJECT. Remember, I mentioned that romanticism has NOT been popular in the East, there wasn’t so much romantic sentimentality and behaviors in COO. I used to get offended when some young men liked me, but I did not them — too ignorant and stupid to understand why “stuttering” guys trying to talk to me with nonsense….🙃
“I wanted my LO. At the height of my LE, he’s the only one I wanted. But I certainly wasn’t going to turn down any other attention.”
During my LEs, I could notice other guys attentions, but did not care one bit while trying to be considerate not to hurt their feelings. Usually, LO/LE was private, so I appeared available, while my mind/hear was not open to anyone else…
“I can’t be close with a friend if I’m not sharing that part of my life and hearing about theirs.”
I have gradually learned to share to certain extent with my westerner friends, but not people from COO, it’s still impossible.
“But I still don’t have the male perspective at all unless I talk to a man”.
Hmm… I’d still say that a man can’t represent all males, but his own views based on his particular experiences.
“I have mixed feelings about John Gray. I can’t negate everything he says, but it also sounds a bit retorgrade to me.”
I agree with you here. But coming from the East, I needed to learn what were your Western traditions on men and women, once upon a time.
“I was a different person around my LO. I felt clenched around him. As clenched as he seemed around me.”
“Clenched!” It describes the dynamic between my LO and me, even today. Feeling so much more relaxed nowadays, I tried to make him more at ease, but he could not for whatever reasons. So our chitchats/talkes sometimes are very superficial; sometimes sounded like riddles, particularly from my side, because I could neither express nor disclose my true thoughts or feelings.
“I hope you can. Although I have to admit, even with a crush, I’d probably do something stupid and try to push things forward (if I was getting some signals of reciprocation).”
I was/am never a person who had/has gut to initiate a “baseball game” in any of my LE, even if you put 1 million dollars on the table to encourage me; in COO, such a daring woman would be considered even by LO as a Slut! So I’m not worried that I’d ever “push things forward” even if this is a real Glimmer for an available Romeo… ☺️🙈
Snow,
” You were after you LO naturally for a pair-bonding PA, I was after my LO bizarrely for an EA of a parent — the Phantom.”
I mean, I’m sure that my LOs are directly related to my childhood and my parents, particularly my father. But I spent a big amount of time, particuarly in my 20s, with guys who I thought were totally different from my father. I wanted to avoid anything that in any way interlocked “parental” and “romantic.”
“We were encouraged to be equal with men, to be “women warriors” to compete with boys/men or self-protective from possible bullies by bad boys/men …
Also somehow I was brought up by some Eastern traditions to think that on men’s list or held by their eyes was dangerous (we don’t want to on lists of unwanted/bad guys, right?), it would make one an OBJECT. Remember, I mentioned that romanticism has NOT been popular in the East, there wasn’t so much romantic sentimentality and behaviors in COO. ”
I’m not sure what you mean by unwanted or bad.
I believe that men and women are equal, when it comes to work and school … but in romance/sex, yes I want to be an object. 🙂
“I used to get offended when some young men liked me”
I don’t have any interest in dating younger men, but it would still be flattering. Most of this attention I’m referring to … you’re not going to do anything with it.
” Usually, LO/LE was private, so I appeared available, while my mind/hear was not open to anyone else…”
My mind wasn’t open to anyone else but I did enjoy attention and flirtation from other men. I didn’t take it seriously; they didn’t take it seriously.
“I have gradually learned to share to certain extent with my westerner friends, but not people from COO, it’s still impossible.”
I don’t know what a COO is.
I thought about it some more, and I did want my LO to open up, I did want to get closer to him, but I did not want to hear about his sexual/romantic life. Who would he be talking about? His wife. No thanks. I don’t want to hear about that.
“Hmm… I’d still say that a man can’t represent all males, but his own views based on his particular experiences.”
Yes, as I wrote, an individual man has his own perspective and experiences but he can still give a general idea of how men think.
“I agree with you here. But coming from the East, I needed to learn what were your Western traditions on men and women, once upon a time.”
I’ve read one of his books. I think he’s very smart. But to watch him on videos on youtube … there’s something cloying about him.
” So our chitchats/talkes sometimes are very superficial; sometimes sounded like riddles, particularly from my side, because I could neither express nor disclose my true thoughts or feelings.”
I know what you mean. But I also started to suspect my LO didn’t have a heck of a lot of depth. So it’s possible I got as deep as I could go.
“I was/am never a person who had/has gut to initiate a “baseball game” in any of my LE”
I’m not sure what you mean by “baseball game.” Also, I kind of like to do the picking myself versus waiting around to be picked. Not always. Sometimes I got lucky with the ones who picked me. But if the crush was available and showing signs of interest … why not?
“even if you put 1 million dollars on the table to encourage me; in COO, such a daring woman would be considered even by LO as a Slut!”
I’m too old to care about what people are calling me.
Provided I wouldn’t sink myself professionally. Since I’m not sure what a COO is. But from what you’ve described about your pupil/romeo 🙂 … it sounds like you would be ok if something happened with him.
Marcia,
I guess COO is „country of origin“…
Mila,
Thanks.
I thought it was either some kind of professional organization or a living community like a kibbutz.
Marcia,
Shari Schreiber contends that it’s not necessarily the traits of the opposite sex parent that drives the behavior of a “core-damaged” child, it’s the parent that gave them the most difficulty.
Schreiber contends that the child will eschew the traits of the abusive/neglectful parent but partners up with some who invokes the feelings associated with the abusive/neglectful parent.
From my personal experience and what I observed in LO #2 & LO #4, I agree with her.
LE,
“Schreiber contends that the child will eschew the traits of the abusive/neglectful parent but partners up with some who invokes the feelings associated with the abusive/neglectful parent.”
That’s probably true. As much as I tried to get away from my father, I mimicked the dynamic I had with him.
Marcia,
“I mean, I’m sure that my LOs are directly related to my childhood and my parents, particularly my father.”
LE’s post below yours makes sense to me as well — it’s the similar dynamic between our parent and us was somehow evoked while interacting with our LOs.
“But I spent a big amount of time, particuarly in my 20s, with guys who I thought were totally different from my father. I wanted to avoid anything that in any way interlocked “parental” and “romantic.”
At least your quest was conscious! I Glimmered — at an instinctual level, at almost all LOs, whose look and personality are as far from Mom and Dad as Mars to Venus! They carry Eddie Reymayne’s femininity in “the Danish girl”, while Father somewhat carried an air of John Hurt (while young without his facial air)
“I’m not sure what you mean by unwanted or bad.”
Male chauvinists, narcissists, potential stalkers, mouth-drilling faces…
“I believe that men and women are equal, when it comes to work and school … but in romance/sex, yes I want to be an object. “
I don’t want to be an object in a relationship, or a tiny screw or nail, in a gigantic machine of a metropolis. I tend to be a bird flying just slightly out of a flock line— freer. I love and enjoy being a challenged, diligent “farmer” to labor and grow healthy organic plants in anything I get hands on, including romantic relationship. Otherwise, I would not appreciate or value any given/bestowed fruits.
“I used to get offended when some young men liked me”
I don’t have any interest in dating younger men, but it would still be flattering. Most of this attention I’m referring to … you’re not going to do anything with it.”
I was talking about the time still in COO — Culture of Origin. Without much biology and sex education, I did not understand why boys and girls are attracted to each other. So when young men hovered around me, I was thinking: why do you like me before I even noticed you or while I am not interested in you at all??
“Younger men”? My latest admirer is a boy near 3 but still behaves his terrible 2. My predecessor could not manage his “ADHD” and I tried to persuade his parents not to start private lessons so early. But this boy did not want me to leave on my 2nd trial class. I mentioned before somehow I attract young children, dogs, and horses.
“Who would he be talking about? His wife. No thanks. I don’t want to hear about that.”
LO talked a lot about his sounding empathetic but also a bit dominant wife (never saw or met the tall, baroque lady) when we chitchatted, which did not bother me most of the time. What caused my jealousy is LO’s shorter, baroque LO. Of course, LO would never mention a word of her, but his other female admirier colleagues…. I now suspect that LO is a Polycule, for reasons….
“Yes, as I wrote, an individual man has his own perspective and experiences but he can still give a general idea of how men think.”
I think it’s risky to think or believe that one man’s perspective could represent other men’s mind and eyes; he can give “a general idea of how “common” men think in theories, but not highly individualistic ones, whom we highly individualistic women deal with case by case, and who constantly change and evolve, like ourselves. In a multiculturally influenced nation, it’s more unpredictable what men and women are generally like.
I’ve read one of his books. I think he’s very smart. But to watch him on videos on youtube … there’s something cloying about him.
I agree with you on his, Gray is like a cloying grandpa on Youtube.
“I know what you mean. But I also started to suspect my LO didn’t have a heck of a lot of depth. So it’s possible I got as deep as I could go.”
I have a similar suspicion: I might have given my LO more credits in depth than what he accurately deserved. He kept saying he preferred our interactions to be something “causal”. A stubborn limerent like me could not even handle that word and pointed out what “causal” means in a relationship in my COO. 🫣 So nothing out of the line happened — I did not want to be a piece in his fuel matrix, whether he’s a Narc or not. 😤
“I’m not sure what you mean by “baseball game.”
Your cultural terminology in dating games: got to the 2nd base, or made a home run… I will pick up and lead a LO to the baseball field, but he has to strike first, lead to 2nd base, then make a home-run. I’ll cheer lead along the way….
“But if the crush was available and showing signs of interest … why not?”
Exactly, why not? if my LwL knowledge does not crash or slowly dim out my crush for an available Romeo 🥹, why not❓
“I’m too old to care about what people are calling me.”
You truly, subconsciously did NOT care about what your LO could possibly have thought of you or called you?? 🧐
No matter how Stoic I claim I could be, I know my Unconscious does not follow scripts of my conscious mind.
Snow,
I’m going to move my repsonse to the “Coffeehouse: Would you turn off limerence?” post since we’re getting off topic.
“I totally agree with you on this— emotional reciprocation is what limerents desire, consciously or subconsciously. Based on my LE #2, 4, 5, 6, consummation not only din’t elevate my limerence, but made it worse, because other side, all monogamous type, could not, or did not want to reciprocate emotionally. That’s why I was certain going for a PA without a prior EA would make my LE #7 worse….”
@Snow.
I have a question you may be able to answer. (Time for you to take on the teacher role I think).
How does the limerent know when or if the LO is reciprocating emotionally? What constitutes emotional reciprocation?
E.g. is it spending all one’s free time together? Is it never rebuffing the other person’s attempt to draw closer? Is it just some intangible thing one or both parties can sense? Is it enmeshment? Is it codependency? Is it both parties experiencing a drug-like high at the same time?
What are your thoughts?
Sammy,
“How does the limerent know when or if the LO is reciprocating emotionally? What constitutes emotional reciprocation? “
I think it’s LO’s mental/emotional caring through verbal communication. Words, despite its many possible connotations, is a medium to convey our feelings and thought, even very subtly.
“E.g. is it spending all one’s free time together? Is it never rebuffing the other person’s attempt to draw closer? Is it just some intangible thing one or both parties can sense? Is it enmeshment? Is it codependency? Is it both parties experiencing a drug-like high at the same time? “
Spending ALL one’s free time together would smother both sides’ breathing. Even if married, each party needs his/her own time and own set of friends, along with coupled friends.
The word “rebuffing” is very strong, many sophisticated LOs would never harshly refuse limerents’ attempts to get closer, even really unwanted. I got so many courteous“white lies” from LO #7, which intention to hurt me less I understand, but they still hurt. But soon or later, I’d forgive. Intention counts, incidental errors of a surgeon killing a patient is always forgiven.
With limerence knowledge, I’d be extra careful about any “intangible thing” I sense. I would not trust my own naked eyes, even if I catch Romeo’s eye-pupil dilating.
If I words “enmeshment” or “codependency” can be applied in interaction with a LO, I’d do some search within my own psyche, and in LO through clear verbal communication. To me, they’re very unhealthy to a relationship and one’s own psychological growth.
Drug-like high can be experienced after the Glimmer, If logical or cool-headed enough, limerent could observe his or her own mental and emotional activities, while simultaneously interacting with LO, which then would make it very hard to lose one’s composure. This happened during and after my 2nd teaching session, our logical brain, with insight, could assist us. I’m very glad of it.
To answer again one of your older post on whether you could ever fall in limerence again, I’d say, with your analytic abilities, you’d NEVER be able to slip into LIMERENCE even if you want to. I’m pretty sure of it after my new glimmer.
These are just my thoughts at this moment.
How is going with your crush?
Another sign to see if someone reciprocates emotionally is to see whether they spend time responding one’s oral or written messages, superficially or in depth; whether they follow one’s word(s)/phrases to expand and ask appropriate questions, or even initiate a new related topic. Even short, these thoughtful replies take mental effort, which indicates they’re willing to connect with you at a mental and emotional levels, as friends, or dates, or bf/gf.
Those echoing, agreeable responses indicate aloofness or their sense of polite obligation, other side is not investing their mind and emotions in interacting with one. Thus, no emotional reciprocation involved.
I’ve been reading your blog for a few months now. I am a wildlife biologist (although I am mostly chained to a computer these days), so I find the idea of “limerance” in humans facinating. I study chimpanzee behavior, including pygmy chimpanzees (also known as bonobos). The lack of pair bonding is surprising to most people. There is a lot of pairing off for a long time, then unpairing, then pairing again, or pairing with another. It is fascinating. They also show distinct jealousy behavior, even when not paired.
I am polyamoros and openly sexual, so this case is really interesting to me.
Some important terms are:
“polycule” (a web of partners, similar to a flow chart, though not starting at one point). Generally, FWBs are not included in this chart, since they are just friends.
“metamors” are people who are partners of partners. My husband’s boyfriend is my metamor for example. We are friends, but don’t need to be friends to be metamors. Ideally metamors at least know each other a bit, rather than “mystery person I’m okay with my partner being with.”
Partners need to be okay with FWBs before that can start. However, monogamous people seem to frame that as “giving permission,” which is hard for me to see that way. I don’t write my husband fieldtrip slips to see his boyfriend. I trust that he has a happy and healthy relationship, and he trusts that with mine.
I have poly friends who are sexual with soley their partners, and it’s a different feeling than someone like me, and obviously Ashley. I am also in my late 40’s, and do not know how old Ashley is. If she is younger, maybe that fact would be comforting to her. Or, maybe she is young enough to think I’m far too over the hill. I am also a woman (I am assuming Ashley is), and I am into all genders (I am assuming Ashley is, it was mentioned her LO in that way). I am curious which way they both lean. The times I have felt jealousy, it was when one of partners or FWBs had far fewer partners that we women. I felt
I think that, since Ashley and her LO have been friends for “years,” NC sounds not just hard for Ashley, but ALSO for the LO. If I called off a relationship with an FWB (and I have, for the sole reason because I just did not feel like sex anymore), and we had met a few times for soley that, I think I’d handle NC. A fling would be like that. My only fling did not feel right to me personally. I like being friends with my FWBs outside of those “benefits.” (I hate that term, but that is a different story. My friend that owns a McDonald’s franchise gives me fry benefits. Sex is not really a “benefit” to me, just a thing to do, albeit a socially charged one).
One of my past FWB’s was my friend since highschool, and one since grad school. We are all in our late 40’s. That is a long, long time. NC would feel awful for me (but would have been up to them, and I would not have pushed back if that was wanted). The B part of FWB is not the important factor.
Sexuality and romance are not always related. One of my past FWB’s was aromatic. It worked well because my husband is mostly asexual (but not aromantic). At one point I realized I just didn’t want to have sex with her anymore. I just did not feel it, in the same way a monogamous couple might not feel it. I called that part off, and we are still friends. Grad school was a long time ago. She has other FWBs, and so do I. But we have not had romantic feelings on each other (as far as I can tell). We were however, up front that we didn’t want to manage both sex and romantic feelings. (She has four romantic partners, and jokes that she is “polysaturated”). And I really don’t want to add in another partner either. If it happens it happens, but I just do not want to right now. Partners aren’t collector cards.
I don’t think this LO is a narcissistic to keep gifts from partners, present or current. Even short term friends, FWB or not, or friends that different away, are meaningful to me. I keep every single Christmas and birthday card I have gotten, ever keychain, every piece of jewelry. An FWB I drifted away from got me a Mickey balloon popcorn bucket from Disney World, and I treasure it. I keep gifts from current friends that used to be FWBs too. I guess if that makes me a narcissist, I wouldn’t know. I like to think that I’m not a horder. If Ashley’s LO is keeping these as “trophies” though, that is narcissistic. But if those are just sentimental memories, that doesn’t seem wrong to me. And if Ashely’s LO has so many friends he could tell you all about, he seems more sentimental than anything.
That strikes me too. It doesn’t seem like he devalues people. It seems like people are special to him. I think Ashely is on to something that I haven’t thought before. Special is not the same as unique. My husband’s boyfriend and I are special to him, all of his friends are special to him, and his ex wife is special to him, but we are each not the only people in his life. His ex wife went back to college, and my husband and I were right there at her graduation. She is so special to him. That division between unique and special might be the key to Ashley going back from thinking of her LO as an LO, to thinking of him as a friend.
I also do not thing Ashley’s LO is a narcissist for wanting to build up the concept of no strings attached sex. Unless I am for this. Back in college, when I first learned of the FWB concept, I realized I really wanted to be comfortable with having sex with people as a fun activity, and not soley in a romantic relationship. If Ashley’s LO is aromatic, he might have been drawn to this even more drawn to this way of life than me. I think this is another think that is different to explain to someone who is monogamous.
It does sound like Ashely’s LO is aromatic just aromatic. I am not even sure that knowing many people closely is extravert behavior. Our technician could probably print you a spreadsheet of every person she has ever met, yet she is the most stereotypical bookworm I have ever seen.
I also wonder what ethnicity and religion Ashely and her LO are. For better or for worse, our backgrounds do shape us. I am second generation Thai, and my family converted to Christianity when I was a kid. They ended up being okay with my love life anyway, but everything was rough for years. That is part of who I am. And I think other people can shape limerancy. Chimps that display jealous behaivor will have “tantrums” around some and not others. Chimps can become docile when around certain chimps, and aggressive around others. And this behavior is not permanent.
I also wonder if Ashley has children. I felt such strong jealousy towards my then girlfriend and her FWBs when was when my son were going through his terrible twos. My MIL was convinced I was doing every little thing wrong. My husband’s boyfriend moved in to help us, and even though most people only have one person to help them, we were all in over our heads.
And suddenly I was jealous of my girlfriend at the time for having a lot of FWBs. She has always been casual about sex and I had really neverminded before. It felt like a switch flipped, and I turned her into an LO. It felt like I loved her more, thought about her more than my son sometimes (which is painful to admit), and was angry with her more and more, and it was confusing. (I’m not saying ex because she ended up passing three years ago). But we kept going through those feelings at the time. We were open and honest with each other, and it sounds like Ashely is. I don’t know if she has been open about limerance, or just the crush, but either way it sounds like she is capable of handling being poly. I have seen unhealthy polycules fall apart due to people not being able to manage their feelings outwardly and making things everyone else’s problem. Ashely doesn’t sound like she’s doing that.
The gender of metamors and FWBs can matter too. Sometimes I internally struggle if an ex FWB has women partners. “I am also also a woman! I must be doing something wrong!” (I know that is not the case, and verbal reassurance is so helpful, since that is my live language). Meanwhile, one of my close friend’s wife also has women FWBs. Her husband has the opposite feelings that I have. “I am the opposite gender to them! I can never provide that so she must be unhappy with me!” (His love language is time, so his wife intentionally setting aside a lot of time and dates with him is really helpful).
Speaking of, I really do think the five love language model is on to something. Partners that struggle with speaking, or who say the wrong words, can be difficult to deal with sometimes. But if a partner doesn’t have that much time for me, I understand. Thought gifts are also important to me. “I saw this keychain at the Target dollar section that made me thing of so I took a picture of it for you” is lovely. I think that portion of live language is misunderstood as being rude and wanting things from people, but it is really a type of sentimentality. Come to think of it, I wonder if Ashely’s LO’s love language is gifts.
Finally, I wonder if Ashley is on the autism spectrum (aspec). My sister is autistic, and forms what are called “fixations.” Her most recent fixation is on a Nintendo game called “Splatoon.” She will talk your ear off about it, and now I know more than I have ever wanted to about the ancient history of squid people called “Inklings”. I love her and I love hearing about everything she loves. Unfortunately, sometimes her fixations are people. It seems separate from crushes though, since her fixations come with a need to study the person. Her crushes came with wanting to start a relationship with them. If Ashely is aspec, or has something related, like ADHD, especially if this is one of the first times she has felt jealousy, she needs to consider if this is fixation behavior. It could be both.
As far as advice to Ashley goes: the first time I felt jealousy was hard. I believe that polyamory mirrors any sexuality. Either you’re into women, or you’re not into women, for example. Either you have the ability to have love beyond friendship for other people, or you don’t. Choosing to act on this is another ballgame entirely, but Ashely has chosen. I know other partners here took a back seat in this post, but it doesn’t seem like there are problems with them. It does seem like Ashely is new to jealousy.
If you are reading this Ashley, I promise jealousy lessens. Thoughts about your LO might linger for a long time, lord knows feelings linger for me. I think it may be an aspect of being poly. Some chimps that display that behavior can stay with that behavior. I have seen this behavior for upwards of two years, even if moved to another enclosure. (For what it’s worth, we are not a 1:1 ratio to other primates). But there is always a time limit to that behavior.
If you are feeling heavy jealousy, returning to an FWB relationship might not be for the best. If your LO stopping sex is what started this, NC or LC might make those feelings even worse. It might build up in your head that he’s doing even more things with even more people you might be jealous of, even if he is not. And remember, your LO calling off sex, is as much about him needing to process things as it is about you. If he is actually aromatic, he might be uncomfortable with all crushes. Do you really want to have sex with a friend that is uncomfortable? I think that would be unhealthy at best. And remember what you said, special is not unique. I believe your LO is special to you, and that you are special to your LO. Neither of you are unique with having been FWBs.
And if you are young, I hope you don’t think I am an rambly old grandma.
Sorry, I wanted to clarify:
When I said “The lack of pair bonding is surprising” I meant that a lot of people know that many chimps pair bond. What is surprising is that some don’t.
Also I meant to say that I think Ashely’s LO is aromatic, just not asexual. The disconnection is there the other way around too. That is, there are also people who are asexual, but not aromantic, as well.
I apologize for the plethora of grammar and spelling errors in this, and I hope it’s understandable.
I also wanted to add that when I said some poly people make things “everyone else’s problem”? NC with someone on a friend group feels a bit like that to me. LC can be reasonable, but I don’t think NC always is. It is one of the issues I’ve had with some of your posts, if I am speaking honestly. I do understand people need to look out for themselves though.
One question for polyamory persons, aren’t you afraid of STDs?
What do you do for prevention? Just curious.Thanks.
Oh absolutely. Everyone I know does an STI panel before before and after.
If someone is new in my life, I will ask for their report, and am willing to share mine. If they are unwilling to show it, I will not proceed. If I hear from another friend they are refusing, I will not proceed. Neither of those has happened, thankfully.
With FWBs I have know for a long time, I will check in as to when they have done a panel, but I am not strict about checking their paperwork. I suppose I could absolutely misjudge their character and they could lie to me after years together, but I doubt that. (A “long time” for me is at least two years). I’m not interested in very short term arrangements. I don’t know anyone who has sex with strangers, so I couldn’t say what they do in that regard. For me, anything spur of the moment, or just not addressed in advance, is limited to things like fingering (unless they are someone I have known for a long time, and I can trust has done a panel).
I also only have sex with a condom or dental dam. Everyone I know either does, or only makes excepts for someone close and trustworthy. I have Nexplanon as well. The obvious exception to both of those was when my husband and I wanted to try for a baby. I’m good at keeping pregnancy tests on hand. I may not need to in the next few years (early menopause runs in the family).
I also suspect that a lot monogamous people think that people who are poly or open have sex all the time. At least for me, and most people I know, that’s not the case. Sometimes I wish it was! The year is young, but we are two months in, and I have had sex a grand total of one time. This isn’t very different from when I was younger. I was never one of those people that had sex every other day. Lucky them, I suppose?
Also, several people in my polycule are “closed,” in the sense that they will only have sex with one partner, even if they have other romantic relationships. A couple people are asexual and adversed to sex. So polyamorous and open are not necessarily equivalent to each other.
I hope that clarifies some things! I’m sure there are bad eggs out there, but I like to think that most people are good. They certainly are in my experience!
Thanks for your answer Hanna. Forgive me , but I thought Polyamorous was just for people with strong libidos and only sexual relationships. So, still, the problem with getting attached and having limerence is not solved with this relationship structure as some limerents have suggested, for example opening up the marriage. We’re back to square one, in a sense, when it comes to getting emotionally involved , which is normal to every human being. One never stops learning! Thanks again.
Hanna,
Thank you for explaining. It’s so interesting. It’s a whole other world, but when you think of it, it’s not- it’s still about everyone having different needs and respecting that.
You have a point in saying that it’s not only about Ashley, but also her LO. If he feels bad about having sexual relationships with people who feel/want more than him, it’s absolutely understandable.
People being so different and feelings so unpredictable, this open lifestyle just seems very challenging to find people who want exactly the same in every nuance without getting in conflict somewhere along the line.
But I guess it’s not different for us more „conservatively“ living in the end.
I think the discussions around polyamory really cloud this question to the point of being almost irrelevant. To me, this is just a regular case of limerence… someone develops the feelz, barriers exist, limerence ensues, limerent desperately searches for a way to get any form of reciprocation.
Her LO has behaved impeccably in my view. There is nothing wrong with sex sans attachment so long as you are honest with your partners – which he was. With a realistic mindset, FWB it can be lovely – warm, pleasurable, and friendship enhancing. You risking getting hurt if you tend to fall in love and they do not, but hurt is a normal part of love and life and cannot be avoided if you live life fully.
I think he is doing the exactly right thing in ending their sexual relationship on the back of her having romantic feelings for him – a sexual/romantic relationship with unequal feelings and attachments, where both parties want something different, will not work for either of them. She was his friend first and foremost so one would assume he cares about her and wants the best outcome for both of them and for their friendship. If he were truly a narcissist, I would have expected him to not care so much for her feelings, to lead her on and bask in her unrequited romantic attention. But he has not done that. It sounds like he has listened, understood, set out his boundaries clearly and given her certainty about where she stands with him. I can only dream of having such a frank and honest conversation with a clear rejection from my LO, I would not still be limerent 4 years later if I had and I might have been able to continue a functional, honest, pain free working and/or friend relationship with LO into the future.
My advice to Ashley would be to respect her LOs boundaries and, as hard as it is when she must want it so so much, she must give up on having a sexual or romantic relationship with him. Instead she needs to work on her inner monologues and beliefs… accept that it is not possible to rewind her feelings and return to FWB with him as dwelling on that is limerent bargaining, the curse of a limerent mind. She needs to let LOs rejection of her desire for attachment really sink in. Ultimately, she needs to let go of hope… the hardest thing of all for a limerent to do. There is no instant fix for this, it takes time and the right kind of self-talk. Oh and do not to use LO’s friendship as a limerent recovery crutch.
But I do think she is in better position than many limerents in that she can talk to LO about it openly if she really needs to, he has given her certainty about where she stands with him, she has other partners to fulfil her romantic and sexual needs and she has the option to fall in love with someone new and transfer the limerence. LO has not ended his relationship with her so it is not a complete rejection, he has just reverted the terms of their friendship back. I hope for her sake she can do this and keep the friendship rather than having to distance herself but maybe some temporary distance would help.
I also have to say that her LO is not polyamorous in the strict sense of the word as I understand it. The real meaning of the word Polyamory is “Multiple-Loves” not only many-sexual-partners – isn’t that called “open relationships”? But maybe I am just old and not with modern vernacular 😊
Sorry to write more, this topic fascinates me!
The potency of the gut-wrenching, anxiety inducing, psychologically destabilising power of sexual jealousy”
I am not convinced this level of intense ongoing emotion is down to jealousy alone, but instead stems more from an individual’s feelings of inferiority. I tend not to get jealous when in a stable relationship but can feel intense stabs of jealousy when I am crushing on someone that I am not in a relationship with. I find jealousy to be a supremely uncomfortable, disconnecting and shame-inducing emotion, but emotions are fleeting if you listen to their message and take skilful self-compassionate action.
“Jealousy in the context of a pair-bond comes from fear of loss. The most important connection in your life might be in jeopardy if your mate is openly fraternizing with competitors. Their affections might get stolen away. You might lose their love.”
This is jealousy viewed through the lens of monogomy. Those that practice polyamoury successfully learn that their lover’s lovers are their comrades not their competitors, that people can love many not just one hence there is much less fear of loss. Polyamory networks can form providing an inbuilt mutually supportive community of like-minded individuals. That is not to say they would not experience jealousy but with time and experience, they can learn to handle it skilfully by understanding what they need (realistically) to feel OK, request it and be prepared to negotiate and compromise. The word “compersion” arises from polyamoury and refers to someone feeling joy as a result of their lover experiencing joy with another lover.
“I am not convinced this level of intense ongoing emotion is down to jealousy alone, but instead stems more from an individual’s feelings of inferiority. I tend not to get jealous when in a stable relationship but can feel intense stabs of jealousy when I am crushing on someone that I am not in a relationship with. I find jealousy to be a supremely uncomfortable, disconnecting and shame-inducing emotion, but emotions are fleeting if you listen to their message and take skilful self-compassionate action.”
@Allie 1.
Great commentary, Allie. I’ve always suspected you of being a smart cookie who was keeping some of her best insights to herself. (The forum actually needs your insights to balance out commentary from other members). 🙂
I think jealousy is probably a feature of all attachments, but a very minor feature in healthy and stable attachments – as you suggest.
I think limerence, for some weird reason, ramps up jealousy even in healthy people. I think jealousy might be a characteristic of limerence, except in cases where intensity of feeling is mutual. (I.e. immediate emotional reciprocation).
I am still struggling to work out what “desire for exclusivity” means. I wonder: is the limerent preoccupied with their (real and/or desired) relationship to LO and wants the LO to be equally preoccupied in turn? In other words, is mutual obsession the true endgame of limerence? Does the existence of jealousy mean the limerent and LO are “special” to each other?
If two people are experiencing this high level of mutual fascination with each other, it might not go down so well in poly circles because the two parties are acting like a conventional couple i.e. secretly want to exclude other members of the poly circle so they can be alone together and pair-bond. A lot of newly-formed romantic couples temporarily want to spend less time with friends, family, etc.
“If two people are experiencing this high level of mutual fascination with each other, it might not go down so well in poly circles ”
Good point.. mutual limerence could be quite destabilising to a polycule (just love that word don’t you! :). Though I imagine intense mutual limerence is rare when there are fewer barriers, freeer communication, much less uncertainty and, most importantly of all, consummation.
I couldn’t even think of a third person for even a one time thing the few times my wife and I talked hypothetically about it. And if I didn’t tell her the truth then why I didn’t want to, it would have been sexual jealousy. What if the other woman was better than me? What if my wife ended up liking women better? Yeah I don’t have much constructive to say on the subject. I do agree with Dr. L’s assessment that Ashley’s LO seems narcissistic about the whole situation. He wears these other “partners” as a badge of honor and that’s all he thinks of Ashley. But I am also not very forgiving of my own gender when it comes to how they treat women.
I had a really hard time following Ashley’s story.
It seems like she and this man started something casual. Both parties were initially happy with something casual. Then Ashley caught feelings. The man pulled back because Ashley caught feelings (a seemingly honourable decision if done to minimise potential emotional harm). Then Ashley’s feelings intensified after the man pulled back to the point where he’s now her LO.
I think Ashley wanting to shut down her feelings so she can still enjoy sex with this man is kind of asking herself to be inhuman. I mean, I think it’s very natural to develop strong feelings of love and attachment for a sexual partner. I don’t think one should (or even can) shut down said feelings just because someone has made that request. It is not a reasonable request. I think Ashley’s LO is actually immature in his understanding of human nature in his reluctance to recognise that one or more of his sexual partners could develop feelings for him, poly or not.
I think Ashley’s brain has decided that it wants to attach to this man on a much deeper level than just casual sex. This suggests to me that he may have communicated something at some point to Ashley – even unintentionally – that he has feelings for her, and that she is somehow special to him, or more special than his other partners.
Of course, this presumption of specialness could all be wistful thinking on Ashley’s part. But I think LOs become LOs for a reason, and at some point this man has communicated the wrong message to Ashley. Either that, or he is lying to himself – knowingly or unknowingly – about his true feelings for Ashley. I.e. he is also limerent for her. (Ashley’s brain certainly believes the man COULD BE in limerence for her too). Neither situation is particularly desirable or flattering.
The man’s behaviour in pushing Ashley away is conveying one thing i.e. rejection. But for Ashley’s brain to be hooked, the man’s behaviour must be conveying something else too. Pure uncertainty doesn’t produce infatuation. The man has done something to give Ashley hope. If he is Ashley’s true friend, he will acknowledge whatever it is he has done to give Ashley hope, and explain whether it’s true hope or false hope. As long as a tiny sliver of uncertainty remains about the nature of the relationship, Ashley’s brain will stay limerent for this man.
I don’t think Ashley should twist herself into all sorts of different shapes to keep this man in her life. On the other hand, limerence will motivate her to do exactly that. I don’t think Ashley should berate herself for feeling jealousy. Rather, I think Ashley should feel a healthy measure of anger at this man for giving mixed signals.
Therapist Fenna Van Den Berg jokes that human brains have three files – an acquaintance file, a friendship file, and a romantic file. Limerence seems to develop when people accidentally or deliberately mix up these three very different files. E.g. someone gives off acquaintance signals (casual sex) but also romantic signals (specialness). Ordinarily, one doesn’t feel high levels of jealousy in relation to acquaintances or friends – certainly not jealousy of a sexual nature.
Thanks Sammy, agree with your comments about Ashely. And love your comment “human brains have three files – acquaintance , friendship , romantic . Limerence seems to develop when people accidentally or deliberately mix up these”.
“But I think LOs become LOs for a reason, and at some point this man has communicated the wrong message to Ashley.”
I agree, that is quite likely true. But romantic and sexual indecision is natural isn’t it? Blaming the LO is like saying that they must never feel anything for someone, never portray any romantic or sexual interest in another, and be 100% emotionally and behaviourally consistent unless they are prepared to commit to a relationship. That is unrealistic and I suspect would result in people being afraid of emotional intimacy and connection, afraid of being blamed for hurting others, afraid to flirt and afraid to fall in love. FWB is playing with fire in this regard but it seems to work OK for some people.
Personally, before I know if I am sufficiently attracted to someone to go for it, I need an emotional connection plus I need to mentally toy with the idea of a physical relationship with them. I imagine that might bear out subtly in my eye contact and body language. Sometimes you like someone but only a little and that little is not enough. Sometimes fancying someone is a brief phase and it fades away. You can’t help this, however bitter a pill it is to the other person who feels and wants so so much more. We need to take ownership of our feelings not blame LO for being human.
Sorry am soap-boxing again.. oops! 🙂
Allie 1,
“ Blaming the LO is like saying that they must never feel anything for someone, never portray any romantic or sexual interest in another, and be 100% emotionally and behaviourally consistent unless they are prepared to commit to a relationship. That is unrealistic…”
For my LE #7, I needed so much to hear your wisdom here, that was where my hurt came from — I could not believe nor accept LO’s changes in his favorite attitude and treatment towards me, as if I were entitled to a permanence in his mentality and emotions. As a semi-buddhist, I know well and accept impermanence in all matters of life, but when it comes to the reality, particularly in limerence, all theories were pushed away…. It is narcissistic ego-pride to think that I deserve any permanence in anything, including my own evolving emotions — feeling sad to lose my affection for LO….
“I suspect would result in people being afraid of emotional intimacy and connection, afraid of being blamed for hurting others, afraid to flirt and afraid to fall in love. “
Luckily, I am not one of those cautious people. Like Granny, I always bounced back as if the past did not exist, no matter what kinds of losses I have had. I would continue putting myself all in if I have a passion for that matter.
Life is too short for all adventures one wants to take.
“I would continue putting myself all in if I have a passion for that matter. Life is too short for all adventures one wants to take.”
Oh yes, 100% agree!
Living life fully requires us to risk our hearts and inevitably be hurt from time to time. Better that someone else causes us pain than we hurt ourselves by perpetually holding back.
Although… however much one believes this, it is not always so easy to put into practice 🙂
Allie 1,
“Better that someone else causes us pain than we hurt ourselves by perpetually holding back.“
This is an insightful, “dangerous” advice to a rule-bending limerent like me… who potentially, “shamelessly” dares to cross any emotion frontier… 😜
@Allie 1.
“But romantic and sexual indecision is natural isn’t it? Blaming the LO is like saying that they must never feel anything for someone, never portray any romantic or sexual interest in another, and be 100% emotionally and behaviourally consistent unless they are prepared to commit to a relationship. That is unrealistic and I suspect would result in people being afraid of emotional intimacy and connection, afraid of being blamed for hurting others, afraid to flirt and afraid to fall in love. FWB is playing with fire in this regard but it seems to work OK for some people.”
I agree with everything you say here.
It’s too much to ask another human being to be consistent 100% of the time. However, young people who don’t have much life experience or people with issues such as OCD or people struggling very badly with a given bout of limerence may secretly wish everyone in the world was a little more consistent. 😁
I’ve found, as I’ve aged, I naturally allow room for other people to be a fairly normal amount of inconsistent. But that may be because I’m surer of myself and also because I’m less invested in other people behaving in a certain way.
For example, young children may need a high degree of predictability from caregivers. However, older children and teenagers may be able to cope with less predictability because they can meet many of their own needs without help. Plus, they want to start gaining independence from parental figures anyway.
I think in healthy adult relationships, some flirtation, some “testing of the waters”, is a good thing. But the emotional maturity of parties needs to be taken into consideration. Less mature people with less life experience are more likely to make more stringent demands on partners because they feel more is at stake.
I think the trouble with limerence is limerents, especially younger limerents, are looking for one very specific thing from LOs – total emotional reciprocation – and tend to become distressed when such reciprocation isn’t forthcoming. I’m not suggesting Ashley has these expectations. But, when I was younger, my view was: “LO must do what LO is supposed to do. Otherwise LO no longer qualifies for position of LO.” To me, the LO was someone applying for/filling a specific job position, and not a fellow individual to relate to in all their complexity. 🙄😉
Advancing years and growing emotional maturity very likely soften the blow of heartache, should heartache occur. I seem to recall you have teenage daughters? Teenagers stereotypically make a big deal out of romantic entanglements, even romantic entanglements of the most fleeting kind. As a mother, are you prepared for maybe a few interesting outbursts in your household over teenage boys? 😜
“I think Ashley’s brain has decided that it wants to attach to this man on a much deeper level than just casual sex.”
Sammy
I might be in the minority in this, but I have seen/read many accounts of this happening and it makes me feel that “casual sex” as it is called in an anomaly in most people, not a consistent factor.
Physical intimacy is by design meant to be a avenue of emotional connection. As I said in my first comment (I am trying not to be to angry about this story) I agree with Dr L that Ashley’s LO comes of a narcissist or at least conceited in his “conquests” that he has no time for Ashley’s feelings. If they were friends to start he would have time for her. Even as an aside that he didn’t want to be romantically entangled with Ashley, he would still be there as her friend. Which from Ashley’s own account doesn’t seem like he is doing. That’s cold. And doesn’t leave me to have much sympathy for his aversion to wanting only “casual sex”. Sounds to me he is just emotionally unavailable or a sociopath.
Again, like one other account Dr L posted I probably need to step back from this one because I can already see it is invoking non-productive emotions in me. And all Ashley needs is objective answers to her plight not an angry old man’s out dated notions.
“I might be in the minority in this, but I have seen/read many accounts of this happening and it makes me feel that “casual sex” as it is called in an anomaly in most people, not a consistent factor.”
@Adam.
I think people can develop strong feelings for someone prior to any sexual interaction e.g. your standard high school crush. And I think people can develop strong feelings for someone as a direct result of sexual interaction too. It’s important to recognise that BOTH responses are latent in all human beings. 😛
Sammy
I know its not demigod (blame a lifetime of too much video games) but it is demi something. I’m not at all sober (forgive me Miss Lovisa) but I have no interest in that. I need an emotional connection for physical intimacy. So I’m very jaded about the whole casual sex thing. I think it belittles the notion of physical intimacy. Chock it up to an old drunk from a time that has been long surpassed. As my favorite writer Charles Bukowski would write “I think kissing is more intimate than ****ing”. And I agree with him. I wanted to protect and guard her. Not be “that guy”.
Demi-sexual. Me too.
A friendship is an emotional connection, hence the attraction of FWB for some – it is far better than just casual sex for those not wanting full-on commitment.
FWB is not for me either I must add, I am the fully committed sort. But I felt differently when I was very young.
No problem, Adam. I agree that sex is better when there is an emotional connection.
I’ve been thinking about these polycules. I really don’t understand how they work. When my mom was diagnosed with dementia, she came to live with me. I couldn’t let her stay in her condo alone when she was an hour’s drive from me. My husband used to have a very nice wood shop in our basement. He converted it to a bedroom for my mom. I can’t imagine a casual partner making such a sacrifice. Does that kind of stuff happen with polycules? Do they help care for aging parents? Do they take time off work to stay with the kids because your dad had heart surgery and you want to sleep on his couch for a few days? I just can’t wrap my mind around how these relationships work.
Hi Lovisa,
„ Does that kind of stuff happen with polycules? Do they help care for aging parents? Do they take time off work to stay with the kids because your dad had heart surgery and you want to sleep on his couch for a few days? “
I guess polycules are not that casual as I understood, there will be all that caring, just more people involved? Or maybe there’s one main partner, maybe father of the kids, who would take time off work , or even two fathers… maybe one would ideally have even more support?
But I don’t know any polycules, so I wouldn’t know if that happens or not.
” I can’t imagine a casual partner making such a sacrifice. ”
That is a point many here are trying to convey… Polyamory does not mean casual any more than monogamy means committed. The only difference between polyamory and monogomy is that you can, if you choose, have more than one (committed or otherwise) love relationship at the same time.
Yeah I guess I am just going to chalk it up to not being able to wrap my head around poly relationships. So I apologize to anyone if I offended them with my posts. I mainly go back to how Ashley’s LO treated her after she gained feelings for him. It is callous and cold. I wouldn’t call someone that treated me like that a friend. And when a man treats a woman like that I get pissed, to say the least. So I will leave it at that.
Sammy
Maybe I can’t get that either. Sex and then “catching feelings” as you kids say. 🙂 But I am also not judging it in any way. I just feel bad for Ashley’s plight. Most limerents bring it on themselves with the LO being neutral. I hope that Ashley can find peace with or without the LO.
@Adam.
“I know its not demigod (blame a lifetime of too much video games) but it is demi something. I’m not at all sober (forgive me Miss Lovisa) but I have no interest in that. I need an emotional connection for physical intimacy. ”
Say no more. I understand what you mean. 🙂
I have never seen polyamory work for the long-term. I have seen monogamy last for a lifetime.
Ashley, I don’t understand your lifestyle. My best guess is that you may find relief from your limerent symptoms if you transfer your limerence.
Absolutely agree, it can be hard to understand polyamory when viewed through a monogamous lens.
Poly people are far and few between compared to the culturally standard monogamy so personally, I have no representative data to comment on relationship longevity but… what if the length of a relationship did not matter, but instead the measure of relationship success was how happy and fulfilled people are, regardless of long are short their relationship(s) are?
I know many monogamous people in LTRs that love their spouses but deeply feel a lack and yearn for something more. I also know plenty that barely tolerate their spouses. I would not call that success.
I guess there is no one right or wrong lifestyle… we are all different.
Allie,
“I would not call that success.”
I agree. Just because the marriage has lasted doesn’t mean it should. People stay together for a variety of reason and it’s very often not because of a great love.