When I first started blogging about limerence, I was careful to talk about the upsides to the condition. I do think limerence adds to life, certainly when you are young and single and looking for love. It is euphoric and exhilarating and intoxicating, even if it can ultimately turn sour.
Limerence also gives you a general “life boost” – most of us end up being more active, concerned about our health and appearance, prosocial, energetic and creative when things are going well in the early stages.
A lot of the great art and culture through the ages has been fuelled by limerence too – the epic love stories and outpouring of music, poetry, sculpture and more by limerents in the thrall of a grand passion. Exalting the limerent object muse.
I’m also more upbeat than most about the possibility of forming a lasting relationship with a limerent object, mainly because I did it.
So, I’m not anti-limerence…
But.
I have no need for it anymore.
I don’t regret being limerent, despite the negative effect it had on my life when it became an unwelcome visitor in midlife, but there’s no part of my purposeful plans for the future that would be enhanced by limerence. I hope that my wife and I will continue to enjoy a happy marriage, see our children off on their own adult adventures, and then pursue the work and hobbies that bring us fulfilment and happiness. I hope to never need have to start on a new romantic adventure. I’m built for monogamy and don’t hanker for novelty.
Limerence also isn’t a useful mood regulator for someone in my position, or my stage of life. It doesn’t contribute much to my creative output (except indirectly, of course, as a source of fascination and study), and it would probably be more of a distraction than energy boost if it were to somehow butt into my life unexpectedly through some sort of series of unfortunate events.
And yet, this is all a very dry and ascetic argument. Deep down, in the earthy, emotional part of myself I know I wouldn’t want to turn the limerence off. It’s like having a tiger for a pet, or a source of power held in reserve. And of course, it was an essential component of the forces that made me who I am.
So, that’s the issue to stimulate the coffeehouse discussion today. Would you choose to turn off your limerence if you could?
Dangerous subject, Dr. L😅
Don’t know if I dare to answer that for myself. Or maybe I do- I wouldn’t turn it off. It’s a part of my personality, or has been. It gave me such poignant and wonderful moments and memories and let me experience life in beautiful colours.
I just wish I could have handled it better.
And maybe at the end of my life, in retrospect, I will shake my head over the waste of time and see that I lied to myself about the wonderfulness of it? I really don’t know.
“Would you chose to turn off your limerence if you could?
Doctor L.
A definitely YES, for me! If I had the means, I would rather turn it off! It has not contributed much to my life, on the contrary , it brought much unnecessary pain and suffering I didn’t need. It was a a distraction from my quiet sweet life which confused and worried me much, a waste of my precious energy and time.
But as you say, DR.L, it’s a “source of fascination and study” for you, as for me, I’m fascinated by this “monster” also, and would like for the people out there to know about it , beware, and learn how to take cover…
A great weekend to all beautiful souls of LwL.
Nisor,
“A definitely YES, for me! If I had the means, I would rather turn it off! It has not contributed much to my life, on the contrary , it brought much unnecessary pain and suffering I didn’t need. It was a a distraction from my quiet sweet life which confused and worried me much, a waste of my precious energy and time.”
I feel the same way. I suppose it would be different if I’d ended up a in a good, long-term relationship with one of my LOs. But I didn’t, and they were all bad prospects for that. I am not lucky enough to become limerent for good LOs. In fact, I think their very unsuitability is part of the reason why I became limerent.
And if a limerent is partnered up in what they assume to be a lifelong relationship, there’s no reason for limerence at all anymore.
Marcia,
“I am not lucky enough to become limerent for good LOs. In fact, I think their very unsuitability is part of the reason why I became limerent.”
Are you suggesting that you were not limerent before you met LOs, particularly unsuitable ones?
I thought limerent, is born with a person and fall in limerence later by various reasons or no reasons…
Snowphoenix,
“Are you suggesting that you were not limerent before you met LOs, particularly unsuitable ones?”
I think my having limerent tendencies is due to both my childhood and my personality. Exactly when the “limernet chip” arrived in ny psyche… I don’t know. It’s impossible to say, as there’s no way to test for it until you meet an LO.
@Marcie,
I’m convinced (also analyzed by my therapists) that my cptsd came from early childhood, possibly birth. So I can’t be sure whether I was born a limerent or conditioned to be one by all traumatic experiences I had.
For me, it’s either I’m in limerence or not, although I had a short-lasted ones that caused shorter no-eat, no-sleep, nonstop rumination that my OCD might have also contributed.
Snowphoenix,
I’m convinced (also analyzed by my therapists) that my cptsd came from early childhood, possibly birth. So I can’t be sure whether I was born a limerent or conditioned to be one by all traumatic experiences I had.”
I don’t understand how you can have it since birth. Wouldn’t you need to have the traumatic expereinces first to then get cpstd?
Marcia,
“I don’t understand how you can have it since birth. Wouldn’t you need to have the traumatic expereinces first to then get cpstd?”
I’m with Snow on this one. I know you hate to follow links but these would explain why I’m with her in much less time and with more credibility.
Check out https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/ and search for “mother.”
Also, check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAAmSqv2GV8. The title is Attachment Theory and Loss” by John Bowlby. Pay attention at ~50 second mark. The pain in his eyes is obvious.
Also, check out Heinz Kohut’s “Reflections on Empathy.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6Y3hoKI8U
It gets really good at the ~2 minutes and backs Snow at ~2:50.
I couldn’t find a quote of the text but Snow and her therapist have a lot backing them up.
LE,
Can you give it to me in a nutshell? 🙂
Here’s my theory on it … my basic personality was set at birth. I’m an INFP and there is some evidence that certain personality types are more likely to be limerent, the INFP being one of them. (There’s a post on this site about that as I’m sure you know.) So was I l already a limerent at birth? I don’t know.
However, my upbringing shaped my personality. I was raised by a neglectful father. So he shaped my attachment style.
I think my childhood not only affected the types of LO I was drawn to but also the way I dealt with limerence and (I think) the intensity of the limerence. Instead of seeing that the LOs were either unavailable or not interested in giving me the kind of relationship that I needed and then walking, I hung on. Withouth the childhood crap, I would have been able to walk a lot sooner and I don’t think I would have been as besotted with the LOs. I know it’s hard to believe, but some people are actually turned off by flaky people who are hard to read. 🙂
It’s also possible without the childhood crap, I wouldn’t have been a limerent at all. However, I can’t really know that.
Marcia,
I went to a daycare (8 hours a day) starting 50 days old, with more than 20 others babies with 2 teachers. Just lack of physical contact as an infant with a caregiver, could produce cptsd without acute traumatic incident, based on my therapists.
My first remembered, and several following traumatic experiences took place between 4-6 yrs at weekcare (6 days a week) and at home with Mother, who did not want me to be at home everyday. I physically escaped 3 times around age 5, Mother wanted to send me back immediately, but Father kept me at home at least for that day.
Snowphoenix,
I went to a daycare (8 hours a day) starting 50 days old, with more than 20 others babies with 2 teachers. Just lack of physical contact as an infant with a caregiver, could produce cptsd without acute traumatic incident, based on my therapists.
I definitely think you can experience trauma very early in life. I just don’t think you’re born with it. I don’t believe someone is pushed out of the womb, already having cptsd. It happens after abuse or neglect.
Marcia,
Another more recent clip that explains the connection between childhood trauma and addictions. Since I never took or even tried any form of chemical substance, limerence would be my ONLY drug (to escape cptsd pains), which the society has not recognized yet. That’s what I hope DrL’s book can demonstrate and convince the rest of the world.
https://youtu.be/BVg2bfqblGI?si=zMcyacp_Gk1akaeu
I’m with you that it’s hard to believe that one is born as limerent. But if a mother also has limerence or was a limerent herself, I wonder if her neural wiring/genes could pass down to her children? (Mother had several LEs during her marriage with the saintly Father, who always forgave her and resisted other women’s luring — I witnessed on both sides…).
I think some of us here consider themselves to have had a pretty good childhood w/o cptsd, such as DrL, MJ an Problem Child, (correct me if I remember wrong), but they’re still struck by limerence, which is puzzling.
Marcia,
Based on my therapists and some books, there are generational and culture cptsd, that collectively pass down, especially to sensitive children or HSPs.
Marcia,
Sweets, food, alcohol, car, house, shopping, porns, feeling-good romance novels, acquaintanceship… rarely interested me and never brought me much relief from my unnamed cptsd pains, not even 1% as limerence did.…
But limerence with its manic energy level, euphoria, and reverie, etc. sent me to the moon. As you know, I was essentially limerent for the Phantom of LO, which is essentially a part of myself, so it lasted so long and is so hard to come out of it.
If not for my physical health’s sake, I would not have landed in LwL. Now, I understand so much better about not only my LE, but also my cptsd and other aspects in my life. Nowadays I could not help name my thoughts and emotions, “it is limerent speaking… it is logical… it’s wishful… it’s pessimistic… it’s healthy imagination… it’s narcissistic showoff… it’s cptsd pain… it’s sympathy… it’s depression…it’s being attracted, inspired and exhilarated….! ”
As long as I could name them without moral judgment, I would feel a great deal of settlement/peace within.
Snowphoenix,
“Since I never took or even tried any form of chemical substance, limerence would be my ONLY drug (to escape cptsd pains), which the society has not recognized yet. That’s what I hope DrL’s book can demonstrate and convince the rest of the world.”
I’m similar, although I have tried some street drugs. Tbh, I would still do them on occassion if I had access to them. I don’t care for alcohol. I don’t like the taste. And I did like the effect Oxycodone had on me when I took it for a medical procedure years ago. I could see why people become addicted to that.
“I’m with you that it’s hard to believe that one is born as limerent. ”
I’m not saying it’s not possible. I just don’t know.
“But if a mother also has limerence or was a limerent herself, I wonder if her neural wiring/genes could pass down to her children? ”
Possibly. Although, personally, I doubt anyone in my family is a limerent.
“I think some of us here consider themselves to have had a pretty good childhood w/o cptsd, such as DrL, MJ an Problem Child, (correct me if I remember wrong), but they’re still struck by limerence, which is puzzling.”
Yes, that’s true. There are posters on here who had happy childhoods. I actually had a happy childhoold until I got stuck full time with my father at age 10. If things had been different, I think I would have been a much different person.
“Based on my therapists and some books, there are generational and culture cptsd, that collectively pass down, especially to sensitive children or HSPs.”
But what if you had been adopted as a newborn?
If, during pregnancy, the mother experiences, for example, severe nutritional deficiences or is severely addicted to drugs, I’m assuming that’s passed on to the child in the womb.
If, during pregnancy, the mother experiences severe abuse or is in a lot of trauma herself, is that passed onto the child in the womb? I don’t know. It’s entirely possible. Or the child is in some way affected by it.
“Sweets …”
Ah, sweets. Yes, they are my drug of choice when not limerent. 🙂
Marcia,
Some of your questions could be answered by the Mate’s video clips I attached in my previous post. It’s made in a cartoon form, very easy to follow.
Snowphoenix,
“Some of your questions could be answered by the Mate’s video clips I attached in my previous post. It’s made in a cartoon form, very easy to follow.”
I never look at clips. 🙂
I am going to say…..do we/Science understand enough about this subject to say..’let’s turn it off, it is for the best’? One thing Limerence has done for me is to wake and shake me up. No longer a passenger. Not shutting down or avoiding pain like the plague. Thinking pain is to be avoided. Experiencing pain in Life is how we grow as human beings. It hurts and continues to hurt but it is very much about making active choices and actively reviewing Life. Profound review and redefinition. It isn’t about LO or the LE, it is about me. I can’t look at outside sources for what I believe I need, it has to come from me. Be it validation, being seen, discovering that I am alive, have a Life to live, and not crushing along being dead, and so forth. Both the understanding and choosing the action(s), has to come from me. And understanding how active choices have the power to hurt and change other people’s lives. Take responsibility. And also know that we can’t control others, and we most certainly can’t predict what will happen in the future.
CamillaGeorge,
“Experiencing pain in Life is how we grow as human beings. It hurts and continues to hurt but it is very much about making active choices and actively reviewing Life. Profound review and redefinition. It isn’t about LO or the LE, it is about me. I can’t look at outside sources for what I believe I need, it has to come from me. Be it validation, being seen, discovering that I am alive, have a Life to live, and not crushing along being dead, and so forth. Both the understanding and choosing the action(s), has to come from me. “
I totally second you here!
I’m not a masochist looking for pains to suffer, they exist in life in EVERT aspect of human life. They are true teachers in one’s winding life journey, urging and pushing one to mature and evolve in beneficial ways
In life, pains are inevitable, but suffering is optional.
I will say ‘No’, then. Even 1.5 years of this….I had gotten complacent and lazy. Even with being broken into a million little pieces on the inside. Yes, so many other things happened as well, and are likely to continue to happen. I think Dr L, that you have many posts that lead towards what I am trying to say here.
My honest answer is, well, I don’t know. Maybe? You see, I may be seeing the world the way I want to, but I think that LO probably likes me too. Hence, my answer.
I know I SHOULD turn it off but I don’t think I would. It is problematic and I don’t know if it is reciprocated (which is, of course, part of the problem) but because I don’t know if it’s reciprocated, the stakes are way too high to act on it. It makes me feel alive, even though LO probably thinks I’m a bit odd!
“The hardest person to break up with , is the one we imagine”
Agree with you here — it’s like breaking up with oneself….
Hi Snow
Hope you’re well . Yes I suppose limerents should heed the warning of the tale of Narcissus , who fell in love with his own reflection . “Narcissus dies by a pool gazing at his own reflection that he falls in love with. He has no concern about anything around him nor does he eat or sleep. He takes his last dying breath by himself and dies by the image that he will never have but so badly desires” . Maybe the L.O can be compared to Narcissus’s reflection , “the image that he will never have but so badly desires”
Jim,
It’s very possible.
Some limerents, like myself, sometimes feel we deserve LO’s loving attention or reciprocation, just because we have intense feelings for them; that’s truly narcissistic! On other times, when LO is enigmatic or largely unknown, we (sub)consciously, wishfully imagine or fabricate an idealized phantom of LO in our head and fall/stay in limerence with that phantom — just a part of limerent’s Self.
Hope peace with you.
Wow ! I’m not sure actually.
I think in hindsight I was limerent for SO, glimmer at first sight.
Then again decades later when less welcome or appropriate. Therefore, difficult to say as it brings so many sparkly benefits and recently has been a life wake-up call. The wasted time and obsessional ruminations is the real killer that makes me sway to ‘yes turn it off’ but then would I be a different shallower emotionless person!?
Maybe I will give a definitive answer in a few months time when I hope to be through with the LE and more hindsight.
Love the Star Trek clip, that would be a neat trick to switch emotions on and off as needed.
I would not turn it off.
For me, Limerence (aka falling in-love) is by far the best, most joyful and pleasurable experience life has to offer. I guess I am fortunate in that I have had multiple long-term reciprocal falling in-love relationships over my lifetime, one of which is my marriage. Even my current LE… despite nothing ever happening and it being a cause for sadness now, it woke me up from a state of post-childbearing stagnancy, made me feel like an attractive woman again, gave me a measure of joy and motivated me to make my life more interesting and fulfilling.
The only reason my limerence has became dysfunctional this time around is becuase I am not free to act on it. Hence if I were to change anything, it would be be cultural scripts around lifelong relationships and monogamy, not my propensity for limerence.
I’m with you. Not only has limerence provided my life with lots of color over the years, along with the pain, but the “cultural scripts” were not my choice. They were imposed from above…my religion saying this was the only acceptable way to have sex and relationships.
If given an ounce of opportunity to challenge or change the scripts I would. My best friend is “merging” her family (adult son and husband) with her LO this summer and I’m taking meticulous notes… I’ve long devised several ideas how I could keep LO in my life beyond our employment tenures, which might begin to expire in a year and a half. I’ve come to accept that despite a pleasant and comfortable marriage I’m reluctantly open-minded and open to anything. The only question remaining: Is my LO?
SJ,
“My best friend is “merging” her family (adult son and husband) with her LO this summer and I’m taking meticulous notes…”
What do you mean by “merging”?
Does the husband know the LO is his wife’s LO?
In terms of the adult son, I don’t think I’d want to be a witness to my parents’ extra romantic situations, depending on what you mean by merging. I’d hope they were having a good time with that part of their lives, but I wouldn’t want the details.
My friend’s husband is falling apart: After being marginally employed for their first 12 years of marriage he “retired “ and has been a dependent for nearly 10 years. He doesn’t take care of himself and has been mistaken several times for being her father despite being two years younger than her (partly because of genetics too though). He has several chemical dependencies (recreational drugs and alcohol) he refuses to give up and from first hand knowledge I can tell you he’s a nasty drunk! He has cognitive impairment that is slowly progressing. He is getting to the point where nobody (not even at church) wants to be around him. I visit him once a week out of pity to my friend. It’s an act of compassion and charity. She doesn’t have extra funds to pay for caregivers respite support. She would divorce him (and has been advised to by everyone except me and the priest) but she feels a moral obligation to see this to its intended and natural conclusion: death. I don’t think she has to suffer unnecessarily though… she fell in love and I think she deserves to stay in it! Her husband knows there are feelings there and has made a few subtle comments about their compatibility but he loves this man too (he’s been even more of a caregiver to him than I have) and is eager to move in with him probably just as much as my friend. My friend is tactful and the son is passive. He is also well aware of his step father’s precarious and progressive situation and is thinking ahead.
SJ,
That sounds like a difficult situation.
I don’t mean to sound morbid, but couldn’t this situation go on for many more years? Maybe decades? I don’t know how old your friend’s husband is.
So your freind’s LO is moving in … as a boyfriend? If they’re together, it’s not really an LO anymore ?
I would not turn it off!
I’m always awed and inspired by great art and culture “fuelled by limerence too – the epic love stories and outpouring of music, poetry, sculpture and more by limerents in the thrall of a grand passion”. That passionate urge (dopamine or not) to create, to enliven one’s life, can be more powerful than anything even that biological pair-bonding.
None-reciprocation is not an issue, the biggest challenge is to sustain limerence’s positive, creative, fueling effects within in one’s mandatory living, or to turn an unrequited limerence to an unrequited love in distance —truly not to expect impossible but live with it in peace.
Needless to say, I speak from a singleton’s perspective. And I’m not afraid of being single for the rest of my life; not everyone has a good luck in romance department — C’est la Vie!
In past three years, I have also faced another realistic “challenge”:
When you face a “definitive” death, physical or metaphorical, would you turn your limerence off?
With 3 frightening lab results coming out last evening as: benign, benign, benign 💃🏻 😄 I’ll have to face more of a metaphorical death coming on a specific day in 3 months, which I knew since the end of August…
We mostly lead a life as if it could go on indefinitely, but if a date of its termination is set for you, then watch our psychology…. Perhaps I need to practice rituals of Tibetan’s living and dying…. Only creating something new could counter-balancing such depressing practices…
Snowphoenix,
You are being enigmatic, I don’t understand what’s going on, but wish you all the best, hope that this date that’s coming up goes as well as the benign lab results!
Mila,
I know I’ve been “enigmatic” or not-transparent about my LE treacherous situation, but it’s painful to even think about it, let alone to talk about it; for me, sharing details of LE somehow strengthen it, so I distract my mind with thinking/debating or creating something new, “expeculating”(truly love Nisor’s word!) unknowns far beyond my immediate stinging reality, which could and did transcendent my pains…
Maybe I’m just in a denial, while I had to deal with the anxiety that came with health concerns. Now, I’m trying to relax a bit but need to face the other metaphysical “death” ringing a bell everyday….
Thank you for your care, I’ll tell shortly.
Snow,
whatever is coming up with your LE, your lab results being benign are much more important, let me tell you this!
Please relax and celebrate a bit!
Everything else will come along.
Delighted to hear that you got welcome medical results, Snowpheonix!
That is so great!!
Good luck with everything else, your philosophy, stoicism, subconscious are helping a great deal, it seems. I hope you achieve everything you hope to achieve.
@Bewitched,
Thank you for your care and good wishes for me! It indeed feels good to have a sounding health — physical and mental (I’m quite psychosomatic, so they both affect each other a lot).
I babbled a lot of theoretical stuff, as a means to encourage myself to daily “practice/think about” my believed philosophies — they do help after a while. It’s only our own mentality that could “save” ourselves from all sorts of stresses and limerence pains….
I’m glad if you could found any of my ramblings a tiny bit helpful and thank you for your encouragement. 🫂
Nisor, Sammy… + Coffeehouse,
There has been this dilemma in my “ongoing” limerence, which has caused this back-n-forth shifting in my mind, all due to a coming metaphorical “death”:
Last May I started my 6th NC with LO in person, in June NC in writing, in July I stumbled into LwL and conjured up my effective cocktail meditation, in August I felt quite “settled/calm” in body and mind, and thought I had found clues in managing my newly understood LE, while still hoping to remain a friend with LO, since no PA, EA, or disclosure (for a possible pair-bonding romance) ever occurred.
At the end of August, the horrible news of our institute in huge debt arrived. My program, along with other 20, faced a possibility to be cut, which meant many layoffs in teaching sectors. As another program’s head, LO knew the news back in June but did not disclose it to me (not sure why). The first wave of layoff arrived before September, I was among 25, but needed to finish up due courses for Minor study until this May.
I almost went into panic attacks for 10 days in a roll (not financial worries), because of the coming “abandonment” by the place felt like a home (having some very caring colleague/friends). Moreover, I realized that my limerence was NOT over, because I could not bear the thought that one day in 9 months that I could no longer physically see LO.
When I returned to work, LO did not show any kind of stress or said he was sorry for the situation. So I knew that he never cared for me or my feelings even as a colleague/friend. Still, I decided not to react to his attitude but to spend the remaining 9 months as best as I could, as a semi-Stoic and semi-Buddhist, as if they were my “last days” on earth. However, inside me haunting sadness seized me day and night, anxiety level raised, meditation focus reduced…. I could not imagine how to deal with the arrival of the “doomsday”.
When LO and I met for tea and cake in early Oct, I told him that I had a good summer — discovered some answers and an online rehab for my previous mental stress and my mediations was working well. I thought of disclosure to answer one of his earlier questions back in April when I tried in person to sever my limerence tie with him (not even know the terminology back then), but LO forgot his own curiosity or no longer interested, so I gave up that idea on the spot.
The 2nd wave of layoff arrived in Oct with 34 more faculty members to go. (last hired first go, including a few tenured) and one of my good colleague-friends had to leave with a deep resentment. LO made a cynical remark, “what else is she going to do (besides taking a contracted teaching job in another smaller college)”. I could not believe my ears — a seemingly very considerate, cordial scholar could say such a thing! (Later during the winter breakI had that nightmare, in which I fell backward to a freezing gushing water in front of our campus gate, only trying to say last goodbye to my colleague/friend, while ignoring LO.) Then, as I casually mentioned here, my interaction with LO became colder and more distanced, I thought it was a good thing — by the time I have to leave, my limerence would be gone and I’d have nothing to miss in this saddening place.
Towards the end of the Fall semester, I felt a lot better getting used to and living with the fatal news. In the last couple of weeks, I chose to avoid seeing LO, who was always sensitive of my regular greetings. Then during the break, after 50 days of NC in writing, LO emailed me with a Christmas greeting (never did before, as a non-religious scholar/expert in Religious Studies). I had to respond, as I said, a rudeness can’t be allowed to manifest through me (of course, I had to punch LO #6’s cheek with my drunk fist); plus we did not argue or fight for anything before the break, only I did not say goodbye in person.
Then, the first day of this semester (1/16) arrived with a further shocking news — 16 more senior, tenured faculty members, including my Chair, LO, and 14 other “important” ones were cut off without a word of warning in advance! That’s when I could not help release a big sigh, “Aaahhha, it’s Karma!” No one foresaw its coming, except I had several highly anxious dreams before the New Year, feeling ominous….
However, in a couple of hours, my sympathy took over me because I could not picture myself in LO’s shoes (taught much longer there)! Like many others, I expressed my sympathy and empathy to him in person, and all my previous LE resentments were gone with wind almost over night — a Karma or that Universe ?? (📞Sammy🤙) have their own whims…. LO tried to hold his composure, but he’s getting sadder, wearier, angrier and now nervously looking for a new post in and out of the state — that’s why I dreamt him in tears and tearing on 1/26 during a nap after being seized in that fog along a river and a bridge.
So now, instead of me leaving “the home”, we are all leaving, scattering to god knows ?? Last final would be either on May 6th or 8th — (5/9/2017❓ I had that quiet electricity-flickering Glimmer ⚡️). I’ll have another year lingering around the campus, since one of my current students wants me to tutor her privately, but LO would be gone by that time.
So with the days counting down, my dilemma remains: should I further pull myself away from LO, so the pain would not be so bad by the time of the departure, or should I value the numbered hours trying to see more of realistic LO to become “numb” — an expose therapy? We were/are not friends before or after LE, so won’t have any chance to keep in touch like Mila with her LO. Thus, it will be a metaphorical death in early May!
To look at one’s life as a whole in one big canvas, not all those practical details, how would I close this chapter of several-year limerence (occurred mostly in my head with little expectation) with least amount of regret and maximum of grace? I can’t just treat it as a big dream, can I?
After the early May, I’ll become a rootless leaf, floating or blown away….
Typo: “meditation was working”
“seven-year limerence”…
I only thought about disclosure because an eternal departure or a metaphorical death is definitively coming…, similar to my lymphoma or a possibly negative result of those lab tests…
Should one care about any embarrassments before a “death”?
Typo: “a possibly positive result of those lab tests…”
To new comers in LwL:
Currently I do NOT have any active lymphoma cells (they were all removed nearly 4 years ago) or other kinds, but medically I have to be categorized as “lymphoma in remission”.
Just keep finger crossed that they would never grow back….
@Snow.
I’m happy to hear your medical results came back benign. That sounds like good news for you, & one less thing to worry about.
I think you and I may have got off on the wrong foot in terms of our online exchanges. I think you always misunderstood my position on limerence, and perhaps the language barrier is to blame for that misunderstanding…
I think you assumed I’m pro-limerence because you’re pro-limerence? The truth is I’ve always been more anti-limerence than pro-limerence. Although I’m not anti-limerence out of conformity to group norms.
Maybe I misrepresented my basic personality to you, too? Or maybe the language barrier again got in the way? There is a little part of me that IS bewhiskered Mr Moses, coming down the mountain with the Ten Commandment in hand. There is a part of my personality that IS a father-figure waving a big moral stick at the wicked idol-makers. But I assure you I’m a lovable, friendly, non-judgemental Mr Moses.🙂
I am an INFJ after all, and INFJs take their moral convictions pretty seriously. But I think most people find the moral side of INFJs comforting rather than offensive, because INFJs rarely impose their beliefs on other people. Mainly, INFJs want other people to analyse the facts for themselves and decide on the best set of responses.
Let me try to explain my position on limerence as gently as I can. This is MY view and MY view alone, and you don’t need to agree with it. Nor do you need to disprove it or challenge it. This view is simply MY personal view, and I’m sharing it with you here as a friend.
In general, I don’t think limerence is a very good idea. More often than not, limerence doesn’t seem to lead to the outcomes people most desire. However, having said that, I would never judge someone experiencing limerence because I know (a) the obsession is involuntary, and (b) there’s no point being hard on someone whose nervous system is already under unbelievable strain from within.
When I was in the worst part of limerence, there were days when I felt like I was literally dying. So the last thing I needed was someone to lecture me on morality, or point out fifty things I’m doing wrong. I was already disappointed in myself, and sad and angry. I was already consumed by a thousand different constantly changing emotions. The last thing I needed was self-righteous speeches or even long pep talks. (Hm. I’m starting to see Marcia’s point about the value of brevity. Lovesick minds can’t stay focused for long). 🙂
I think, for some people, limerence can lead to so much internal pain that one temporarily loses the ability to empathise with loved ones e.g. spouse, parents, friends – and, yes, even the LO. I think many limerents (in the throes of an LE) may sometimes struggle to admit to themselves that they’re not being their usual highly-empathic, conscientious, utterly delightful selves.
I think I didn’t like some of you posts because I didn’t understand your situation. First, I thought you were partnered and not single. Second, it seemed like you were bragging about your plans to try and have an affair, and weirdly wanted people to cheer you on.
If the former were true, you’d be betraying your spouse. And we’re hearing now about how shattered betrayed spouses feel. If the latter were true, the problem would be that you’ve fundamentally misunderstood the spirit of LwL, which I’m pretty sure is about striving to do the right thing, showing “grace under pressure”, etc.
When I read more of your posts, I came to see that you seem to be trying to reconcile your limerence with your Buddhist/Stoic beliefs, and aren’t simply advocating bad behaviour for the sake of bad behaviour.
I may have also been cross at you because I envied you. I envied you because you are a woman, and part of me believes – rightly or wrongly – that women experience emotions more vividly than men do, and that maybe you’re experiencing some special level of technicolour-ness reserved only for women? (Maybe women are just better at describing their apparently technicolour emotional experiences, so it just seems like women get a better deal). 😆
I agree with you that limerence is incredibly enlivening. That’s the part that lures people in. It’s a shame, though, that this feeling of aliveness doesn’t seem to come with no strings attached. (The strings attached might be depression or self-loathing, or a super-strong attachment to someone amazing one can never date).
“I can’t just treat it as a big dream, can I?”
This is such a profound thought, Snow. I think a lot of people look back on limerent episodes and view the entire episode (once it’s fully over) as just a beautiful dream. (These people presumably didn’t ruin their lives over obsession). Limerence has that dream-like quality because it IS taking place mainly inside one’s own head.
Snow,
wouldn’t do it. I mean disclosure. I would keep eyes on horizon and new life, there will change a lot for you, don’t get held back by old cobwebs!
I don’t think it’s worth opening this special box you managed mostly to close again shortly before his departure.
You can think of your own little ritual of goodbye to this episode of your life, but don’t open any discussions with him, I‘d say.
New life, new challenges💪🏻
Mila,
No way I’d disclose at this point, I was explaining what I was thinking back in October.
It’s not even about embarrassment, he does NOT deserve to know about it. As you say, it’s a piece of my internal life which I need to bury.
I have been very sentimental since weekcare, so I want to KILL “unhealthy”, unnecessary sentimentality before the end. This is where Stoic and Buddhism could work, which I’ve been trying everyday since last Fall, but very, very hard.
Perhaps I’ll just treat it as a long dream… 💭
Sammy,
Thank you for your kind and sincere messages here.
“I think you and I may have got off on the wrong foot in terms of our online exchanges. I think you always misunderstood my position on limerence, and perhaps the language barrier is to blame for that misunderstanding… I think you assumed I’m pro-limerence because you’re pro-limerence? “
From very beginning I know you’re anti-limerence because of the pains you’ve experienced. Remember, I commented that your view on LE was the way too dark, over focusing on its dark side, while you seemed to have “brighter” LE compared to mine — at least you and your LO spent a lot of shared time as platonic friends. I had nearly nothing in whatever way you name it.
“The truth is I’ve always been more anti-limerence than pro-limerence. Although I’m not anti-limerence out of conformity to group norms.“
It’s not hard to tell from your various posters to other LwL “ghosts”. They are kind, firm, and full of insights of limerence, out of your own long, excruciating LE. Sometimes, you sounded a bit confirming to this “group norms.” I tend to be, or at least want to sound like, a rebel to any norms. There isn’t one-size shoes that can fit all sized feet.
“Maybe I misrepresented my basic personality to you, too?”
Being non-religious, I tend not to deal with biblical figures from Bible, which is a pillar of beliefs, ethics, convictions of the West, I’m very aware of it (taken a course with LO). However I agree with a view that religious or spiritual experiences are private, can be shared with follower travelers, but not to be imposed on non-religious/spritual folks. I mentioned that all my LOs and close friends are non-religious, although some are spiritual like myself.
“There is a part of my personality that IS a father-figure waving a big moral stick at the wicked idol-makers. But I assure you I’m a lovable, friendly, non-judgemental Mr Moses.”
I’ve “fought” with my own father during my entire youth to assert and validate my own identity , and proud he always said the last word and beaten down my self-confidence and self-esteem — how did I get my cptsd?? So later in life if anyone treated me like a “child” with authoritative tones, I’d wave a sword back just for the sake of challenging, regardless who was right or wrong. Another thing I mentioned was that all my LOs have strong femininity, making them much less traditional, macho-like father figures.
“I am an INFJ after all, and INFJs take their moral convictions pretty seriously. But I think most people find the moral side of INFJs comforting rather than offensive, because INFJs rarely impose their beliefs on other people. “
Haven’t you figured out that I am NOT one of “most people”? I talked once that I’m not really into MBTI personality stuff, because I firmly believe that people are a working progress, able to grow and evolve the way they truly want to be. One cannot be considered open-minded or tolerant or empathetic if one imposes, even very subtly or skillfully, their beliefs on others.
“Mainly, INFJs want other people to analyse the facts for themselves and decide on the best set of responses. “
Having so little idea about any MBTI types, not long ago I looked up INFP and found I seemed to fit the shoe, but I also knew that my strong logical side of the brain (trained by Parents) could harshly beat up its sentimental sides, to the point of damaging imagination streaks. Based on how you define INFJs here, I like the trait that allows others to figure themselves out without being judged and heavily pushed, and to find their own appropriate path to walk on. If they want to bump themselves into a wall, w/o awareness, give them a kind warning and let it be! They will learn!
That’s why I said, I like questions — if someone wants to advise me something, just ask neutral questions without expecting me to answer. My innate inquisitive mind would work out its ways. Asking right questions is a form of art. One of my formal therapists finally learned the trick; otherwise, they’d take my yelling — repressed cptsd anger towards my over controling Narc Mom.
“In general, I don’t think limerence is a very good idea. More often than not, limerence doesn’t seem to lead to the outcomes people most desire. “
Based on some other posters I read here, I have to agree with this view — remember I only learned about it back in July. By a comparison, my LE pains and anxieties were the way less severe, since I had little expectations from a surrogate-parents LO. Myself alone was actively making my dreams through a series of long and short unrequited monologues, so to have an ideal makeup parenting experience (appropriately needed right after Father’s sudden death). And I got a lot of comforting I needed from my fantasies.
“However, having said that, I would never judge someone experiencing limerence because I know (a) the obsession is involuntary, and (b) there’s no point being hard on someone whose nervous system is already under unbelievable strain from within. “
I could see it. But you sometimes seemed to forget that some of what I went through, e.g. highly sensitive and easily got offended/angry, was not due to limerence, but my complex PTSD (against Mom and other authoritative figures in my childhood and youth), which has a much larger scope than limerence alone. The latter is a result of the former — cptsd is a parent, limerence one of its kids, along with OCD, abandonment melange, lack of self-esteem/confidence, self-loath, prone to anxiety or panic attacks, other types of addictions…. etc.
“The last thing I needed was self-righteous speeches or even long pep talks. (Hm. I’m starting to see Marcia’s point about the value of brevity. Lovesick minds can’t stay focused for long). “
Even no longer in the throes of limerence, I don’t think limerents, particularly proud and stubborn ones like me, would appreciate, if not offended, others’ morality preaching, or “self-righteous speeches or even long pep talks”. I mentioned what I grew up “allergic” to fixated ideologies very traditional moralities/convictions. All societies are evolving, people should be allowed to believe and act based on whatever beliefs they hold, as long as they do not PURPOSEFULLY (accidental or incidental is unavoidable) hurt or harm others and violate laws. Even one decade ago, gay people like you, were not tolerated or even severely attacked in the West (still not in the East).
“I think, for some people, limerence can lead to so much internal pain that one temporarily loses the ability to empathise with loved ones e.g. spouse, parents, friends – and, yes, even the LO.”
Definitely true with my LOs. When I was mad with them, I wished some Karmas to befall on them, I’d be a hypocrite if I deny this! The current one caused the least amount of damage on me compared with some previous ones. I did not curse, and I got the same misfortune six months ahead of him.
“I think many limerents (in the throes of an LE) may sometimes struggle to admit to themselves that they’re not being their usual highly-empathic, conscientious, utterly delightful selves. “
I think this is very true to many cptsd sufferers, not just limerents. Since getting my cptsd very young, I don’t know what’s my innate nature was like. I was told that sometimes I was very chatty at day/weekcare, fearless, head-strong like granny, but always sympathized (not very empathic due to self-centeredness). And later I discovered my easygoing, giddy and forgiving parts through mediations, but those parts came and went, depending on my physical health and moods.
“First, I thought you were partnered and not single. Second, it seemed like you were bragging about your plans to try and have an affair, and weirdly wanted people to cheer you on.”
😀 logistically, how could a paired up person could post here at all “odd hours” in weekends, even sleepless nights through? For the second part, I already discussed with Marcia why when PA chances were present or subtly offered, I had to turn them down. EA for a surrogate parent (subconsciously a lover) was all I wanted in all my LOs (of course without my clear awareness). When I could not get it (in marriage with LO#4), I had to walk away from a “successful” LE. Instinctual pair-bonding desire have unconsciously chosen glimmer, but not the subconscious, psychological aim of my LEs.
I also mentioned that I’ve take an oath to myself since LE #2, and still have not broken it. It’s not due to some commonly shared morality; by experience, I just KNOW that any taken LO could NOT provide what limerents truly desire — exclusive emotional and mental reciprocation, PA is a side dish, unsubstantial without EA first. Without EA, PA gets boring quickly, the entire human history has proven this!
“When I read more of your posts, I came to see that you seem to be trying to reconcile your limerence with your Buddhist/Stoic beliefs, and aren’t simply
advocating bad behaviour for the sake of bad behaviour. “
I try not to label “bad” and “good” on anything (my definitions may differ from yours), and to understand why and why those behaviors are conducted, and whether they’re truly beneficial even to doers. Meanwhile I tend to strive for a beauty in matters my hand get on. If a lot of ugliness (e.g. lies), wishful expectations (of others’ thoughts and emotions), and unnecessary sufferings involved, then no beauty can be achieved in that matter.
Religion and philosophy still matter in guiding one’s thinking and consequential feelings and conducts. I have wished a true friendship with LO, but now recognize it’s impossible if LE does not die completely first. But there is no opportunity left to even try a genuine friendship due to the coming “death”.
“I may have also been cross at you because I envied you. I envied you because you are a woman”
Thank you for your impersonal compliment here! 😄 So you envied all women in LwL?
“that maybe you’re experiencing some special level of technicolour-ness reserved only for women? (Maybe women are just better at describing their apparently technicolour emotional experiences, so it just seems like women get a better deal). “
I cannot speak for other women except myself. I seem to be able to imagine things far brighter and more beautiful than their realistic faces, while logically I knew well my perceptions were false, were fantasies. Still I let my imaginations or reveries take my mind anywhere they wished to go for an available time, and then come back to earth to deal with largely disappointing reality. I could compartmentalize my mind even during the throes of LE (but not necessarily cptsd with its deeper wounds). Such an ability, I believe, is due to my dreadful weekcare experiences, in which I needed to imagine something very beautiful and bright to survive that gloomy single, plain room, going for lonely days and nights without end, except a hope. “I agree with you that limerence is incredibly enlivening. That’s the part that lures people in. “
With so little expectation, I could have stayed in there longer if jealousy did not suddenly struck. That’s when I realized that there were another subconscious desires hidden in my longing and dreaming.
“It’s a shame, though, that this feeling of aliveness doesn’t seem to come with no strings attached. (The strings attached might be depression or self-loathing, or a super-strong attachment to someone amazing one can never date). “
True, true, true! I’ve reduced my depression and gained back some confidence or aliveness by waving a Joan of Arc sword in front of you… 🤺. If you intend to help me, you’ll have to indulge my combative masculinity.
No one is super amazing if one gets really closer to them, that’s why an “expose therapy” could work. LO acted/behaved insecure, vain, deceitful, weak-willed, people-pleasing, manipulative… He did not function or verbally respond me as an idealized parents figure that I fantasized; I conducted, directed, and acted (for both sides) the whole fantasy shows in my head, to soothe the grief of my big loss. I have often wondered why I’d want to be his friend, just for a sake of respecting my long-lasting limerence, triggered off by his mere existance??
“I can’t just treat it as a big dream, can I?” “This is such a profound thought, Snow. I think a lot of people look back on limerent episodes and view the entire episode (once it’s fully over) as just a beautiful dream. (These people presumably didn’t ruin their lives over obsession). Limerence has that dream-like quality because it IS taking place mainly inside one’s own head.”
Yes, my limerence did not damage my live substantially (one really can’t blame lymphoma on anyone else or self, but some extraordinary stress triggers), but it has last made me to understand my entire past, reshaped my mentality by pushing me onto an extremely challenging self-exploring and self-growth path. I’m quite proud of my mental and spiritual progress.
In this light, I do NOT want to treat my LE as a dream, its positive outcomes should not be underscored. If one chooses to learn something from their LE, they WILL gain their personalized insight and wisdom, just like you’ve already done, shown in your posters. So let’s equally validate other side of the coin; no pros can exist without cons. Speculating both sides without judging or heavily leaning on one side is an essence of Stoicism and Buddhism — all 7 human emotions and 6 desires are natural and valid. Judging or condemning any of them is futile and probably would bring psychological imbalances or harms to one’s wellbeing.
I feel lighter now to get the ongoing stresses out of my chest. Thank you for your support and linguistic sports, Sammash! 🐉 (I’d perpetually prefer a dragon than Mr. Moses!)
To know thy self:
https://youtu.be/7mGCI0UalCk?si=6Hw7b8CbLfxvI9lV —
5 Questions to Ask Yourself Every Evening —
1. What am I really worried about?
2. What am I presently sad about?
3. Who has annoyed me and how?
4. What does my body want?
5. What is still lovely?
“If you begin to ask these questions consistently, please prepare yourself. Some of these questions can lead to a deep internal assessment and can bring up dormant emotions. This is not for the faint of heart but for those courageous enough for individuation. “ — WovenPsychology
There is an idiom in COO for making true, strong, lasting friendship —
“No discord, no concord”.
I wonder what would happen if Arthurian knights meet Amazon women warriors❓🤔
@Snowphoenix.
“I’ve reduced my depression and gained back some confidence or aliveness by waving a Joan of Arc sword in front of you… 🤺. If you intend to help me, you’ll have to indulge my combative masculinity.”
Snow, I have no interest in helping you. You’re here to help yourself – end of discussion. And if you don’t want to help yourself, that’s fine too. You can’t outsource your responsibilities onto other people.
Also, I’m not going to engage you in any form of combat. The reason for the lack of combat is I actually like you as a person and have made the unilateral decision to treat you as a friend.
I don’t joust with friends, sorry. If you don’t agree with your newfound friend status, too bad, so sad. You have been officially placed in the “friend box”. Now you’re just going to have to endure the indignity of me being nonchalantly sweet toward you… 🙂
The bottom line, Snow, is that I’m happy to have pleasant exchanges with you occasionally, but I have no real ongoing interest in your life, which is strictly your own business and your own responsibility.
“So you envied all women in LwL?”
No, dear. Just the ones who write Godawful purple prose. (I shall be naming no names. Those guilty of writing Godawful purple prose know exactly who they are. Oh wait … I think I’m talking about myself. I read back my own comments sometimes, and think: ‘Gosh, that’s such a wise and witty and beautiful commentary. I’d love to meet the author at a garden party hosted in said author’s honour…’). 🙄😆🤣
I actually went through high school in an extension English class that consisted of around 25 girls and 4-5 boys. I never wanted to read the boys’ work – it was always too boring. Most the girls wrote interesting short stories, however, full of flowery descriptions. I enjoyed reading the short stories the girls wrote. The girls seemed to be living more intensely in their imaginations than the boys. (Perhaps a horrible indictment of a patriarchal society? Perhaps a sign extension English classes mainly attract female introverts?) 😉
“I’ve “fought” with my own father during my entire youth to assert and validate my own identity, and proud he always said the last word and beaten down my self-confidence and self-esteem …”
Snow – seriously – your father issues are disturbing and holding you back from true emotional maturity and genuine relational stability. There is never anything mature about fighting for the sake of fighting, although I know can be fun for some personality types. (Nobody I personally know, thank goodness!) 😇
Sometimes you act like a little girl shouting to be heard. I find your tendency to shout distasteful in the extreme. An adult woman doesn’t shout to be heard. An adult woman speaks in a kind, clear, firm, assertive manner and ASSUMES the whole room will hear her and her views.
Furthermore, an adult woman is comfortable with people having views that differ from her own. Sincere “differences of opinion” do not make an adult woman question the legitimacy of her own views. Grown-ups can legitimately hold conflicting views on the same subject, without either party being wrong or being made to feel wrong. (In discussions of feelings, there is no right/wrong). 😉
I think healthy father-daughter relationships are friendly and courteous in nature rather than combative. Combativeness as a style only alienates listeners, even if the combative person is 100% in the right. If you want to communicate an important message, you have to learn to charm people, and be less defensive overall. 😉
Snow, the people here aren’t trying to shame you or disrespect you or patronise you. The people here also aren’t interested in babysitting you. The people here are mostly disinterested adult observers with lives & problems of their own. And if they respond to you at all, that’s a mark of favour, a sign of incredible kindness.
Do not repay kindness with ingratitude or angry rants or (deeply repulsive but also hilarious) “adult temper tantrums” because … oh my gosh … wait for it … wait for it … the crime of the century … someone dared to insert the wrong word in a poem!! 😁
Let’s take your comment about “thought police”, for example. Oh you poor sweet thing, didn’t anyone bother to tell you? There’s no such thing as “thought police”. “Thought police”, if they exist at all, are bogeywomen living in your own head. They are merely manifestations of your own psyche. (Or manifestations of your own guilty conscience, I dare say). 🙄
When you angrily accuse others of being the “thought police”, you are actually behaving in an astonishingly childish way. Such accusations are utterly incomprehensible to Westerners, let me assure you. Such accusations suggest the poor soul making said accusations is suffering from some form of paranoia, and believes someone is trying to come between her and her fantasies. 😲
Guess what, honey? No one can come between you and your fantasies. Wanna know why no one can steal your fantasies? No one can steal your fantasies because your fantasies are … fantasies! You can cling to your fantasies or you can update or replace or discard your fantasies. But whatever you do with your fantasies only you can decide. Other people have no jurisdiction over your fantasies.
More to the point, other people – more often than not – have zero interest in your fantasies. If someone on here talks to you, again, they’re being kind-hearted toward you. You have to stop perceiving malice where none exists. People here actually like you, Snow, and are probably hugely sympathetic to your plight. Do not lash out at people who actually like you. Do not lash out at anyone, period. 🙂
I’m going to be really honest with you, Snow. I have no idea why I even talk to you, because I can’t really relate to your situation and am indifferent to whether or not people choose to act on their limerence. (Not my life. Not my problem). I think the reason I spend so much time talking to you is that you subconsciously remind me of my biological mother. I think my biological mother had undiagnosed borderline personality disorder – or cptsd, if you like. (To a layperson, bpd and cptsd appear to be very similar conditions).
Basically, when my mother was feeling relaxed, she was a wonderful human being to be around. She was genuinely very warm, very idealistic, and had the most amazing imagination. When my mother was feeling stressed, however, she was moody, she had outbursts of irrational anger, and she was prone to paranoid ideation.
Like many people with bpd, my mother incorrectly believed that people were mysteriously out to get her. (People in actual fact weren’t out to get my mother. People in actual fact were out to GET AWAY from my mother, because they found her over-the-top personality deeply embarrassing and her constant stream of false accusations so confusing. No one genuinely disliked my mother).
My mother also had a very troubled relationship with her own father. It seems like he either ignored her or overindulged her. Females who don’t have good relationships with their dads seem to grow up into extremely unhappy women who relentlessly strive to manipulate the opposite sex and lack emotional maturity. If they attract a man at all, they invariably attract a weak man, a doormat, a pushover.
Don’t be that woman, Snow. She isn’t you and she isn’t worthy of you. You can do better. You can be better. Don’t let your past or your present stop you from being a “class act”. 🙂
Dear Snowpheonix,
I can’t imagine how stressful the imminent end of job (“death”) and end of all of the work colleagues, friends, and LO that you have been around for seven years (or more?) must be for you. As you said, the work community you’ve been will scatter ‘like leaves’ in a few months, and who knows where everyone will end up. The fact that there has been a whole series of redundancies over time must make the atmosphere at work so incredibly fraught. As someone who works in a similar sector to you, I know how much of everyone’s self-worth is bound up in this particular kind of work, and how people can also have workaholic tendencies in this arena (I am not sure of it is the case for you or your colleagues). Anyway, I can’t even imagine the stress. Your recent posts have laid it all out and has only just now become clear what you are facing. My sincere sympathies for what you are facing. Now I understand why you have made such a very determined effort on meditation, stoicism and buddhist philosophies and why your creativity and growth and so important to you.
About your comment:
” I spent more time here getting deeper acquainted with you ghosts, slowly feeling like in a “family” — literally a ghost family!
I’ve probably spoken more, substantially and meaningfully, in the past 7 months here, than the past 7 years with the rest of people combined in my reality. Calling it a rehab is not exaggerating. Because we are NOT professional therapists but equal limerence sufferers, it is working (in reducing and healing the pains of my past LEs, of cultural and familial traumas), at least for ME.”
Yes – I totally get this too. Many of us are carrying the weight of a heavy secret. No-one in my life, apart from you lot here, know what has been happening to me. Like you, I am trying my best to conquer it. I don’t reach out to my LO, and don’t really respond, except for work. Its hard. I go through major emotional roller-coaster ride, without him doing anything. Its all in my head (just like you have described your situation, many times). I fully understand what you say about having this ‘ghost family’ and I am so grateful for it. I am glad that it has helped you too. Please keep posting and maybe we can continue to help in some way.
Sending a hug.
Dear Bewitched,
Thank you for your sympathies and empathies!
Working in the similar sector, you absolutely know and understand where I have been standing — losing an over 8 years of fulfilling job, the sight of LO, and my possible health (prior to the lab tests). Without my philosophies and spirituality, understanding and supportive LwL ghosts, I would not know how to pass each day since the September, and may slip into further depression (I am very good in resisting other types of addictions).
Yes, my working place has been like a “sinking Titanic” since last August, particularly in humanity departments (got cut most). Due to the pool financial and human management from the very top, faculty members were full of disbelief, anger, and sadness; some already found a new job and left before the holiday, the most will leave in May. The hallways feel like a ghost town, everyone is “hiding” in their office…. It’s so sad and depressive. My sense of belonging to a “home” was already damaged and will be shattered completely soon.
I’m glad that we share the same sentimentality about LwL, where one could, if bravely choosing, share one’s internal, private self without worrying to expose our realistic skins. In reality, we dominantly see and deal with people’s external shields and skins which inhabit true colors of their minds and spirits, vice vista. Here, we could reveal our deeply repressed, authentic thoughts and emotions, which is so fundamentally healthy to our psychological wellbeing.
Of course, each of us has to walk our own walks( hopefully without leaning on a cane too much), but it’s so delightful, encouraging, and powerful to find like-minded camaraderies to tread together on the same path!
Cheers! 🫂
Hi Snow,
I don’t know if you wrote it somewhere, do you have another job lined up after May, besides tutoring this one person for another year?
I wish you all the best and all your strength for the coming months!
Mila,
Nothing definite yet, a couple of perspectives with interviews coming. There is not much openings in my field across the entire country.
I had to miss some opportunities outside the city, since I can’t drive, so limited in the metropolitan area.
What I most fear is reduction of mental engagement and challenges in the Fall. My mind can’t stay idol.
Snowphoenix,
I wish you good luck for your interviews! Maybe it will be a stepping stone for a new and better life, who knows. I keep my fingers crossed that you‘ll find something suitable soon!
Sweet Mila,
Thank you for your sincere wishes!
Yes, I’ve been talking about facing unknowns and uncertainties over the past 6 months, and know this treacherous 🐲 Dragon/Phoenix 🐉Year will surely be a “stepping stone”, bringing an astronomical change to my small 🦜 life… 📿 😉
@Bewitched,
“Many of us are carrying the weight of a heavy secret. No-one in my life, apart from you lot here, know what has been happening to me. Like you, I am trying my best to conquer it. I don’t reach out to my LO, and don’t really respond, except for work. Its hard. I go through major emotional roller-coaster ride, without him doing anything. It’s all in my head (just like you have described your situation, many times).”
May I ask (can’t remember clearly): is there SO(s) in your LE situation? Regardless, I know so well how hard it is to put up an appropriate professional or indifferent face outside while in limerence inside at work… And the lack of knowledge of realistic LO is one of major factors that keeps our imagination going round and round…
I had the worst poker’s face at the early stage of LE, which made me highly nervous even just greeting LO (blushing like a teen) in front of other colleagues, who gossiped later, but I pretended not to see or hear. Anyway, gossips stopped since nothing out of the boundary ever happened.
Nowadays, my skin is thicker than en elephant, and I no longer ride emotional roller-coaster after 6 or 7 LCs/NCs (though my OCD still makes me quietly ruminating sometimes). With less than 3 months left, I am sweeter with LO; they might be last few encounters before death shall set upon all of us one day….
Sammy,
“All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts.”
At LwL stage, I’ve played 2 or 3 roles, how are you fairing in your shows?
“Snow, I have no interest in helping you. You’re here to help yourself – end of discussion.”
Wow, throwing Stoic stones back to your teacher so soon, how grateful! 🙄
“And if you don’t want to help yourself, that’s fine too. You can’t outsource your responsibilities onto other people.”
I think I’ve already helped myself tremendously by successfully pulling you onto the stage. 😝🤭 I had none and will not have any intentions to “outsource” my responsibilities onto anyone else. Having kept my plight private for 6 months has proved my point here.
“Also, I’m not going to engage you in any form of combat. The reason for the lack of combat is I actually like you as a person and have made the unilateral decision to treat you as a friend.”
You do not like French Fencing 🤺 in white tights and mask? 🥺 How about Ping Pong in black jeans? 🏓
Am I a person here? or merely a ghost? At least I have Sammash’s clear image in my head, you have only a phantom of my shape. However, I feel honored to be treated by you as a friend — your phantom friend! 🤗
“I don’t joust with friends, sorry. If you don’t agree with your newfound friend status, too bad, so sad. You have been officially placed in the “friend box”. “
Hmmmm…. 🤔 I enjoy playing some kinds of wrestling sports with my friends, what are your favorite, best suits? Put me in a “box”? But I always think outside box, how are you going to contain me there? 😆
“Now you’re just going to have to endure the indignity of me being nonchalantly sweet toward you… “
Cough, cough… my teeth are coming off…. 🍨 I’ll frequent my dentists now…
“The bottom line, Snow, is that I’m happy to have pleasant exchanges with you occasionally, but I have no real ongoing interest in your life, which is strictly your own business and your own responsibility.”
Sounding so Stoic already? A sweet friend is not interested in his friend’s life, do you have a name for this type of “friend”? Someone recently complained that I was not “transparent”, so I answered the curiosity and care.
“No, dear. Just the ones who write Godawful purple prose. (I shall be naming no names. Those guilty of writing Godawful purple prose know exactly who they are. “
Oh, Dear! Is it those writers’ fault that Western Dragons have purple tail? 🪁Unlike their counterparts Eastern Dragons who are all green? 🐉
“Oh wait … I think I’m talking about myself. I read back my own comments sometimes, and think: ‘Gosh, that’s such a wise and witty and beautiful commentary. I’d love to meet the author at a garden party hosted in said author’s honour…’). “
Does a red bird or a lady bug get an invite? 🐞🦜
“The girls seemed to be living more intensely in their imaginations than the boys. (Perhaps a horrible indictment of a patriarchal society? Perhaps a sign extension English classes mainly attract female introverts?) “
Lucky Western girls, who are at least allowed to imagine. In the Eastern patriarchal societies, many girls are even NOT allowed to go to schools. So you were placed in an extension English class, due to your introvert femininity?
“Snow – seriously – your father issues are disturbing and holding you back from true emotional maturity and genuine relational stability. “
😭 😭Now do you understand why I’ve subconsciously searched and limerented for an idealized father figure who could actually “MOTHER” me with a big dose of femininity?
“There is never anything mature about fighting for the sake of fighting, although I know can be fun for some personality types.”
Can you not to take my words so literally? (Sorry, I keep forgetting you’re an Arspie, who may not get my odd, Eastern sense of humor). It’s more like sporting for winning and losing, not for just enjoyment, thus not always cool.
“Sometimes you act like a little girl shouting to be heard. I find your tendency to shout distasteful in the extreme. An adult woman doesn’t shout to be heard. An adult woman speaks in a kind, clear, firm, assertive manner and ASSUMES the whole room will hear her and her views.”
Not just sometimes, but a lot of times even in my own head…. Haven’t I told you enough that I was NOT listened to or heard when little? Haven’t you sensed the desperation of the girl who were left in weekcare for solid two years and inaudibly screamed in the middle of night alone in bed? It’s only understandable that she probably, subconsciously attempted to relive that period hoping a better makeup-parenting. Thank you for having not walked away and listened to my “distasteful shouting”.
I never claimed that I’m an adult woman, and also know that there is a little girl lived and still living in every adult woman, and a little boy lived and still live in every adult man. It’s basic human psychology. If our adult self does not take a good care of those little girls’ and boy’s unmet needs, the adult self would get into some kind of troubles.
I assume you know “Crappy Childhood Faire” numerous video clips on why and how cptsd adults, particularly women, prone to fall in limerence. Why did I write so many short or long monologues to LO who knowingly or unknowingly reenacted my unavailable parents (who never even knew I wanted to be heard by them?) LO knows all my childhood traumas, so at least agreed to receive and read my missives, but claimed that he couldn’t respond. Then, my imaginations went “wild” about his possible reactions — all in favorites of the little girl’s fancy wishes, e.g like to be listened to and spoiled as a single child…. Thus this wired LE worked in partially helping my father-daughter bonding issues.
“Furthermore, an adult woman is comfortable with people having views that differ from her own. Sincere “differences of opinion” do not make an adult woman question the legitimacy of her own views. Grown-ups can legitimately hold conflicting views on the same subject, without either party being wrong or being made to feel wrong. (In discussions of feelings, there is no right/wrong). “
Your conception about “an adult woman” is impeccable, but you sound like “preaching” again. From very early on in LwL, I have repeated that I came here to deal with my bigger issue than limerence — cptsd. How many mature, “adult women” have you met with an ongoing, unhealed cptsd? So some of your responses back in October made me, an immature, “child” woman, feeling wrong and hurt, and made you looking like waving a big morality stick whipping my mere ideations.
“I think healthy father-daughter relationships are friendly and courteous in nature rather than combative. “
Agree, but IT was never modeled to me unfortuntely. Viewing yourself as a father-figure, perhaps you could show me the way? 🙂
“Combativeness as a style only alienates listeners, even if the combative person is 100% in the right. If you want to communicate an important message, you have to learn to charm people, and be less defensive overall. “
Just because I used the word, did I really behave “combative”? You once said you did not like debate, so I went easy on that, although I firmly believe that calm debates are very constructive for one’s mind.
I very much agree with your principle on communication. Considering you’re maturer, easier going, kind, erudite, I probably have subconsciously treated you as a “punch bag” for my father’s “sin” — his huge pride, wanting to be thought the most intelligent, charming, and achieved person on the earth; his daughter was just one piece on his chess board, while she wanted to be spoiled as a daddy’s only girl.
“Snow, the people here aren’t trying to shame you or disrespect you or patronise you.”
I know it is very true. Why do you think otherwise? My poor English led to this much of misleading???
I SO hope you do not always speak on behalf of “the people”, but only yourself. You don’t even know how many people visit this room daily or weekly, scan or read seriously. Can not you use “I” more? And from now on, I’ll point out when I see you “patronize” me, you seem to have such a habit….
“The people here also aren’t interested in babysitting you.”
Please speak for yourself! Where did you get that impression that I want to be babysit? This choice of the word is very condescending! Don’t you see it?
I never even told you guys what was really going on in my reality and have been dealing with all challenges on my own for nearly 6 months — I’m only here for 7 months. Babysitting me? Are you (you alone) qualified to be my nanny? 🙄
“The people here are mostly disinterested adult observers with lives & problems of their own. And if they respond to you at all, that’s a mark of favour, a sign of incredible kindness.”
Can’t you hear yourself, representing “the people” here defining their acts? I am one of “the people” here in LwL, what you’re saying does NOT represent me. I AM Interested and care adult observers, and respond others when I think I could contribute a penny of my thoughts. In many situations, I am not qualified to say anything since I do not have their lived or felt experiences.
Are you also hinting that I do not know such kind of favor and kindness when others responded me? Haven’t I thanked them in my responses to them? Are you speaking for yourself or representing others, of whom I’m not aware?
“Do not repay kindness with ingratitude or angry rants or (deeply repulsive but also hilarious) “adult temper tantrums”…
Ah! I see the issue here. When an ESL honestly questionied a usage of a BIG word in an English poem and pointed out its possible psychological connotations, then that’s “angry rants or adult temper tantrums….” When you were chanting paragraphs after paragraphs with reiterations about impropriety of disclosure or of indifference towards someone else’s SO, that’s calm reasoning, not a “holy crusade”? ❓
“… oh my gosh … wait for it … wait for it … the crime of the century … someone dared to insert the wrong word in a poem!! “
Oh my good gracious, who has so dared to put those words into your mouth or your mind? 😳
“Let’s take your comment about “thought police”, for example. Oh you poor sweet thing, didn’t anyone bother to tell you? “
“Poor sweet thing” sounds patronizing, please stop using it! Period!
“There’s no such thing as “thought police”. “Thought police”, if they exist at all, are bogeywomen living in your own head. They are merely manifestations of your own psyche. (Or manifestations of your own guilty conscience, I dare say). “
Have you ever read Orwell’s “1984”? Understand how old Soviet Union, North Korea and Chinese governments dictate their states and people? And how they brainwash and gradually put “thought policemen” in ordinary people’s head so they censure themselves before even daring to speak a word of discordance or different opinion?
“When you angrily accuse others of being the “thought police”,
I did not accuse “others”, only YOU alone. I agree with DrL that “there is no thought crime. Those who judge, moralize, condemn, or attack merely thoughts, opinions or ideations in other people’s mind are THOUGHT POLICEMEN. They exist in internet all over places nowadays, are you still living in a wild forest in the Pacific?
“you are actually behaving in an astonishingly childish way. Such accusations are utterly incomprehensible to Westerners, let me assure you. “
Aha! I see that you alone are representing Westerners now… I suggest that you go to North Korea, China or Russia and live there for three months, then come back to debate with me about “thought policemen”.
A dragon can’t even expand so fast from “the people” of LwL to Westerners in a couple of paragraphs! Grown up in a highly individualized civil society, do you know how to speak for YOURSELF, YOU alone?! Assure me? Who am I? 🌫️
“Such accusations suggest the poor soul making said accusations is suffering from some form of paranoia, and believes someone is trying to come between her and her fantasies. “
How did you really get so much excessive energy to target at my “poor soul”? what’s up with you? I’m seriously asking: WHAT IS GOING ON WITH YOU, Sammy❓❓
“Guess what, honey? No one can come between you and your fantasies. Wanna know why no one can steal your fantasies? No one can steal your fantasies because your fantasies are … fantasies! You can cling to your fantasies or you can update or replace or discard your fantasies. But whatever you do with your fantasies only you can decide. Other people have no jurisdiction over your fantasies.”
Did I consult you about my fantasies❓🤔 My fantasies are my own business — End of discussion❗️Thanks so much for caring!
“More to the point, other people – more often than not – have zero interest in your fantasies.”
So what? Whether “other people” (or just you?) are interested in my fantasies is entirely their own business! No one has pressured anyone to read anyone else’s posts here; I’m free to speak about my limerence experiences and related thoughts, regardless how others (re)acts, and you did too. What’s your point of the statement here?❓
And just why and how my fantasies have offended or annoyed you so much that they deserve so much of your precious time and energy to comment and summarize? My dear, you are not “other people”, just YOU alone. 😄
“If someone on here talks to you, again, they’re being kind-hearted toward you. You have to stop perceiving malice where none exists. “
When I did EVER perceive “malice” from any of you guys here? My gosh, you really do not understand humorous tones/words or lightheartedness. I apologize if I have not thanked you enough for your serious, sincere dialogues and discussions with me. — I spent a whole day to write a complete poem praising you!… and you ignored it as if it did not exist (bad or good is not the point!)! Now you claim that I perceived malice from some talks? From where and what? How do you know any perceptions in my head? Is that Mr. Moses’ skill?
Sammy, you’re deeply puzzling me here, seriously! Is this something Aspies have that I am very ignorant of? Is this your special style of “sweatiness” that I don’t know at all as an Easterner?
“People here actually like you, Snow, and are probably hugely sympathetic to your plight. Do not lash out at people who actually like you. Do not lash out at anyone, period.”
I like a lot of people here, too! Did I “lash out” at anyone here, besides in one Oct. 16 message to you? (Because I believed that your big heart and maturity could take it, but you were unable to unfortunately!) If you can’t comprehend my true thoughts and fondness for you, I suggest you watch “Much Ado About Nothing!” Do you or can you relax?
“I’m going to be really honest with you, Snow. I have no idea why I even talk to you, because I can’t really relate to your situation and am indifferent to whether or not people choose to act on their limerence. (Not my life. Not my problem). “
I’m beginning seriously asking the same question: why do you even talk to me, help edit my little prose, and spend your precious time in scribbling “War and Peace 2” with me??? I thought we liked each other’s mindset and could open-mindedly ask, answer, or explore some serious or fun topics in life. But lately you seemed to get more offended easily for some reasons beyond my knowledge or comprehension. 🤔
I assure you and others who care for me here, my mood is getting better and more stable despite my “plight”. And in my messages to Nisor yesterday, I contributed such a positive state of my mind to our serious dialogues and discussions (I humorously called it “sword fights”) in all fields of humanities. I showed my genuine gratitudes directly and indirectly in my posts to you and to others, so how did I make you feel so unappreciated?
And if I’m so childish beyond a plausibility to be “fathered” for a second chance and to ever mature, why on earth are you wasting your energy and time with me? I thought you’d feel clearer now about my transparent LE situation. But your message sounds upset to my ear, and I have no clue why❗️❓
“I think the reason I spend so much time talking to you is that you subconsciously remind me of my biological mother.”
I hope you’re not insinuating that I’m also subconsciously mothering you in LwL— just kidding. You sympathies me like you do your mother.
“I think my biological mother had undiagnosed borderline personality disorder – or cptsd, if you like. (To a layperson, bpd and cptsd appear to be very similar conditions).”
To my therapist and me, they are different.
“Basically, when my mother was feeling relaxed, she was a wonderful human being to be around. She was genuinely very warm, very idealistic, and had the most amazing imagination. When my mother was feeling stressed, however, she was moody, she had outbursts of irrational anger, and she was prone to paranoid ideation.”
It does NOT sound like me. I’m not so moody, at least outsiders could not tell. As I told Nisor, I don’t get angry easily nowadays with my meditation going on. If you perceive a lot of irrational anger in my talks, then either your comprehension is OFF or my English needs to be sharpened urgently. My most negative mood is just depression. My dilettante Stoicism and Buddhism still work on me.
“Like many people with bpd, my mother incorrectly believed that people were mysteriously out to get her. (People in actual fact weren’t out to get my mother. People in actual fact were out to GET AWAY from my mother, because they found her over-the-top personality deeply embarrassing and her constant stream of false accusations so confusing. No one genuinely disliked my mother).”
That’s not me, and I don’t have bpd. I don’t believe people are out there to get me. I’m mostly at ease that strange dogs in the street always come to me for a pet. Most people I know are either nice or indifferent but polite. No one has time or energy to care too much outside their own lives or problems, particular in a metropolitan city where I live.
“My mother also had a very troubled relationship with her own father. It seems like he either ignored her or overindulged her. Females who don’t have good relationships with their dads seem to grow up into extremely unhappy women who relentlessly strive to manipulate the opposite sex and lack emotional maturity. If they attract a man at all, they invariably attract a weak man, a doormat, a pushover.”
You’re generalizing again here and trying to fit individual cases into your theories. My father neither ignored me nor indulged me; he tried to mold me into his “adult puppy” or just live under his “wise, protective” wings, but I want my own independence and autonomy. My relationship with my mother is much more troubling! Every family has its own unique dynamics, I would not generalize anything in various family dynamics.
“Don’t be that woman, Snow. She isn’t you and she isn’t worthy of you. You can do better. You can be better. Don’t let your past or your present stop you from being a “class act”.
Wait, slow down here. What is “that woman”? And what kind of a “class act” consist of in your eyes?
Sammy, I really appreciate your sincere care. 🙏 But I will not joke with you anymore, you do not understand my kind of humors, Humoring you is dangerous…. 🙂
Sincerely thank you for your friendship! 🫂
I’m having my brunch now (15:15); let me see what I could taste from the “sweet” cake that my “newfound friend”, an INFJ “Mr. Moses” 👻 has sent me:
I have no interest in helping you
write Godawful purple prose
your father issues are disturbing
act like a little girl
distasteful in the extreme
uninterested in babysitting you
Ingratitude or angry rants or (deeply repulsive but also hilarious)
“adult temper tantrums”
Oh you poor sweet thing
bogeywomen living in your own head.
manifestations of your own guilty conscience
in an astonishingly childish way
the poor soul
suffering from some form of paranoia
have zero interest in your fantasies
perceiving malice
why I even talk to you
Wow, 18 ingredients, what a genius to make such a rich, complex cake! 🍰
I’ll have to slowly savor it, making it last longer….
Without watching the news earlier, I was literally thinking about Aleksei A. Navalny a couple of hours ago. Just now I learned that the world’s #1 Thought Police, Putin, had him “died” in the prison yesterday!
What a synchronicity with one word! Jungian follower believe it, but I was always skeptical. Now, I’m speechless….
During the Great Purge (1936-38), Stalin in Soviet Union had nearly 700,000 his dissidents killed. During the Cultural Revolution in China: Mao had from 500k –2 million opposing voices permanently silenced. Estimated 710k— 3.5 millions people are murdered in North Korea since its communist regime.
Freedom of speech is taken for granted in the West, but has costed millions of lives in the far East in modern history. It is still highly dangerous in 3 dictatorship countries, where millions of “thought police” have been ideologically, legitimately “installed” in their people’s head making them living in fear. With the internet surveillance existing in everyone’s cell phone, the “Big Brother” is more powerful than in “1984”.
It is such a mind-boggling: you praise a magnificent, benevolent Dragon spirit 🐉 out of a “kind and erudite” moralist “Mr. Moses”, then you get in return a pile of a snake’s venomous bites… Is it an unknown (to me) issue of religious faith/ideology, gender identity, Aspie/cptsd nature, or personality complexity, eg. Narcissism/ego-pride, envy/jealousy, controlling, sensitivity, sensibility, human fragility…etc. ❓❓❓❓❓❓
Being an INFP limerent, I can be and have been very blind not just to my LOs, but also to fellow limerents on the similar suffering path…. Well, I guess I have to say: C’est la vie, both in reality and “ghost” land…. 👽
If an (un)forgiving is ever needed, I simply have no clues what IT is that would require such a contemplation… Oh, my poor “inner child”! 🐣
Snow hi,
No word I can say now can comfort you ; you have to go through the motions of of these trials, and only you can make the decisions your heart requests of you…
We all rally around you to give you support and have an understanding mind, and a shoulder for you to lean on. I’m very well aware of the pain you re going through because I have been there, still the sorrow is my most loyal companionship … I’ve welcomed and accepted it as part of life…
I found this poem, by D.H. Lawrence , which gives me food for meditation…
PHOENIX , D. H. Lawrence
Are you willing to sponged out/ erased, cancelled / made nothing? /. Are you willing to be made nothing?/ dipped into oblivion?
If not, you’ll never change./ The Phoenix renews her youth/ only when she is burnt alive, /
burnt down/ to hot and flocculent ash.
Then the small stirring of a new small bub
in the nest/ with strands of dawn like floating ash/ shows that she is renewing her youth/ like the eagle/ immortal bird.
Site: Sandra Lee Dennis , PhD. Poetry and Prose.
I’m not writing much because I had an eye cataract removed and I need to take care not to lean my head down much.
I’m with you, wishing you courage and strength in these difficult times. Wish I was near to give you a bear hug. Best wishes. The Phoenix always rises from the ashes to a brand new level.
Phoenix
D.H. Lawrence
Are you willing to be sponged out, erased, cancelled,
made nothing?
Are you willing to be made nothing?
dipped into oblivion?
If not, you will never really change.
The phoenix renews her youth
only when she is burnt, burnt alive, burnt down
to hot and flocculent ash.
Then the small stirring of a new small bub in the nest
with strands of down like floating ash
shows that she is renewing her youth like the eagle,
immortal bird.
Hi Nisor 🫂
Thank you for your forever upbeat support!
You’ve been supporting me with your tireless posters here. It’s not easy for me to expose my deep inner pains and complexity due to my pride. But you, Sammy, Mila, Marcia, LE, Adam, Bewitched, Ihmo… and many others have been providing me insights and support since Day one. I did not alway agree with all advices from each individual’s experiences, but by discussing and debating, I’ve learned about myself and gained strength to face the challenging reality that constantly triggered my cptsd, which is the bigger target to overcome.
But life takes its own course, Fate has her whimsical hand turning the wheel randomly… I need adopt and CAN adopt.
Thank you for referring D.H. Lawrence’s poem. Based on my past dozen of big and small LEs and how firmly I’ve left them behind without any sentimentalities, I think I qualify for the redbird’s personality.
In the past, I have “died” and was reborn many times alone; this time, I have you watching over and around me, so I’m much less fearful, painful, or lonely. A million thanks again!🙏
I hope you recover soon from your cataract….
Hi Snow, how are you today?
I’m relishing Tennysons poem “In Memoriam”, it’s a long poem, 131 individual poems combined in one written over 16 years lapse.
Site: The Literature Network- In Memoriam A.H.H. by Lord Alfred Tennyson. Or http://www.online-literature…
It is said that the poem allowed the poet, over many years, to continue to merge grief with love.
I agree , there’s no love that does not have the grief side of it. Specially limerents.
Tennyson asserts that keeping grief fresh is better, and is the more loving act, that allowing time to lessen one’s grief. Being loving means continuing grieve, even if that experience pains the griever.
I have learned to live with grief, it’s a sweet grief one gets attached to. One does not complain anymore, one embraces it as a friend , accepting it with resignation ; it lurks in the shadows as if afraid to leave, but someday, suddenly, it will leave you alone, very alone! And then one will say, oh, where are you my golden thorn that makes my heart bleeds! Who can feel you again tearing at my heart…
A dose of grief is not that bad. Let’s not be afraid of it…
Have a pleasant good night sleep.Hugs.
Nisor,
Thank you for your deep caring for my wellbeing; your message made me immediately tearing, which rarely occurred in me…. I so wish it could happen more, so to help release my deeper sadness or melancholy…
However, I’m doing rather well, especially after have finally “released” my utmost stresses here. As you said once: a pain shared is reduced to half.
I can’t post a longer reply I just finished. Well….
I scanned through the Tennyson’s epic poem, it’s very heavy and religious to me; honestly I am simply unable to read anything with too many “lord”, “thy”, “thou”, and“thine” in it. Moreover, the speaker laments for his LO or LO’s glorious life, which I find hard to relate to my case:
1. LO remains enigmatic, distanced, and sometimes annoying, and I’m not deluded anymore at this late stage of LE to see any rosy halo over LO’s head — really did see literally for the first four years, talking about the altered mind of Limerents’ brain!
2. LO demonstrated some unpleasant personality traits that has diminished my respect. Lately, he no longer appears as that idealized surrogate father figure, but an insecure, weary, avoidant, sensitive “teenager”. He’s still very attractive in appearance and manner, like a piece of cake, but I do not know enough of him to “glorify” anything that he has possibly done in reality for others or humanity, certainly not me.
3. I don’t think I can call my limerence, “Love” — perhaps just one-sided Eros or an over-sized obsession. As I have discussed with Sammy that I don’t think I’m primarily in limerence with LO, but with something deep inside myself (spiked energy, aliveness, positivity, creativity, and joy??) that were awaken by LO’s mere existence. Like a Sensor, he did not reciprocate my longings either in person or in writing, but extricated, hoovered and basked under my infatuation.
4. You and Sammy both had actual dating experiences or platonic friendships with your LOs, respectively. I had almost nothing of a romance sort, and would never be able to write an epic poem about my LO/LE, what’s there to write about, besides my one-sided reveries or fantasies for an idealized, phantom parent who could actually “mother” me with his strong femininity???
5. I don’t know how deep my grief for the coming “death”would be in three months. At the end of August, just one month after I found LwL, my limerence was weak and cloudy after a long summer break and NC of a limited time with LO. I just wanted to learn what limerence is all about, and thought I was ready to try a longer NC during a regular semester when LO would be physically around. So when the bad news came, I immediately experienced “abandonment melange” (by the working “home”) and went into panic attacks before the first day of school.
6. Once I saw that Fate would force a complete NC on me in 9 months, I aborted my plan for even LC with LO. I faked more smiles at LO, apologized and retrieved my attacking letter (called him a liar and narcissist) sent to him in Fall of 2022, and invited him for tea and cake, which made LO looking happier, but sadder inside me. I felt sad and depressed even when my students graduated, now a permanent or eternal departure from LO, who somewhere, somehow resembles a bit of myself?? I felt like I was going to leave behind a piece of myself, and could not imagine how I could live/survive without physically seeing LO around regularly.
7. Not knowing you “ghosts” well back then and being private, shy in general about my personal feelings (quite shocked by some of Sammy’s “naked” posts), I decided to deal with my heart-breaking reality on my own. My meditation was affected, unable to concentrate well like during the summer; still, many longer sessions succeeded without any giddiness ever coming again. Unlike in the past LE, when I tried to run away from my sadness (binge ice cream or Netflix), this time I stayed with it either deep in the night or early in the dawn — literally “hugged” the painful disbelief and grief in my chest. They became weaker or dissipated after I “stared at” them from 1 to 2 hours. But they would come back next day, merry-go-round-n-round!
8. More differently from my past LEs, this time I did have you “guys” to chat about LO/LE stuff. It took me a while to realize that you ghosts, without judgements, are seriously, unbendingly trying to comfort and support old and new limerents’ bewildered and suffering souls, no matter what kinds of “beautiful/wise” or “ugly/stupid” cases are presented. Still, with my serious cptsd, I was very self-conscious and self-protective, afraid of even perceived misunderstanding, judgement, mockery, criticism, or even attack (one did, and his post was removed in time by DrL before I saw it)…. But I rambled and babbled along (more about my past in terms of cptsd), just to distract myself from my “surreal” reality and constantly hammering depression.
9. However, my mood began to be shifted when Sammy pinned on my heels with those brain-spinning questions, which I could neither ignore nor respond light-heartedly. Then, my combative masculinity got me into the further debates and even verse “wrestling”. One’s mind is unable to stay in grief if it is involved in creativities or profound inquiries. Hinted to Sammy that I was facing a life-changing situation, I thought he waved a big stick to distract me from my unspeakable stresses and melancholy.
Then, he disappeared for a month, while LO was continuing “distancing” me with his annoying, cold politeness. So I picked up piano lessons and bean sprouting to lift up my sinking spirit. Very soon, my grief began easing. Physical hand movement is really therapeutic, help releasing my OCD (I’m still practicing it everyday, and my two hands could play separate keys now), and the sight of organic growth of salad (still sprouting everyday) just brought this inexpressible comforting and joy inside my heart.
10. From Thanksgiving through the winter break, to the first day of this semester, I was less sad but more nervous for unknown reasons, accompanied by many sad and frightening dreams. NC in writing helped me mentally distance from LO, which I hope would further reduce my ongoing grief, and somehow make me able to courageously face the final “death”. I spent more time here getting deeper acquainted with you ghosts, slowly feeling like in a “family” — literally a ghost family!
I’ve probably spoken more, substantially and meaningfully, in the past 7 months here, than the past 7 years with the rest of people combined in my reality. Calling it a rehab is not exaggerating. Because we are NOT professional therapists but equal limerence sufferers, it is working (in reducing and healing the pains of my past LEs, of cultural and familial traumas), at least for ME.
“Tennyson asserts that keeping grief fresh is better, and is the more loving act, that allowing time to lessen one’s grief. Being loving means continuing grieve, even if that experience pains the griever.”
I am not sure whether “keeping grief fresh” is a loving act, maybe Yes to Tennyson. I don’t even know whether my LE is love, Eros only, or Philia involved, or just a deprived, selfish “child’s” whimsical desires that rose and fell, came and went…. More than often, one only appreciates something when one is about losing it…. So when this unavoidable loss has been definitively approving, my grief reached its maximum height in the Fall; however, does this Fate change the nature of my LE? Is it “love” or just something I have been obsessed with? Something occurred, imagined only in my head, nonetheless still “precious”?
My shocking grief is no longer fresh after 5.5 months— not at this moment of scrabbling —tomorrow is another day! I was not repressing it, I was not running away from it, and I was not “glorifying” it with verses or lyrics, but was/are simply watching it in meditation, which has made my grief backed up again and again. Then, focusing my attentions in exploring the larger world of humanities — arts, music, poetry, classical ligature, philosophy, psychology, spirituality…. as well as in my inner domain — the conscious mind and the Unconscious realm, has naturally reduced the grief of an inevitable loss. Thank Heaven, it is not so sudden, I had 9 months to prepare for a full embrace….
As D.H. Lawrence says in his poem, a true phoenix needs to be burnt alive, burnt down in order to renew her youth. So I think I’ll neither hold onto my grief too tight nor try to get rid of it too fast; I’ll let it run its own course.
With my LwL’s limited experiences, instigated, inspired, encouraged, and supported by all of you, I think and believe that constant learning, exploring for knowledge and wisdom, and appreciative creating (in art) for “still lovely” people and matters in the world will eventually cure and heal our shared and individualistic limerence sufferings.
****
The whole piece is broken to 4 parts.
Nisor,
Another way to cure or reduce grief is directing writing about it; the pain could be reduced up to 100%, at least for a while.
I have to confess that each time I finished a poem since last Fell, whether with Sammy or by myself, I got the writer’s High, giddily or even ecstatic for days — including that “gray, misty sky” one, as if any kind of troubles were of out of my life….😄
Creating writing/arts is surely one effective form of psychotherapy, definitely for me. 🦜
Hi Snow,
It’s Saturday, I hope you’re well rested.
You’re approaching a finishing line, as I understand in May, to handle your LE, and your job situation. Difficult times ahead of you, I can see. You’re being tested on all fronts , but whatever you do, do not panic! Sometimes we go through trials in life which turn out to be for the better, only, we cannot see it at the time we’re going through it.
Probably you ll have sorrow for detaching from LO, since it’s a feeling you had whether real or an illusion. And yet, you have been working and preparing for “that day” for awhile now, it will not be a sudden surprise.
The departure from the premises of the Institute, may affect you more, I guess? Many years of sharing with colleagues and students, I can feel it’s going to be very sad. It’s like leaving home…many memories. One needs to be strong and courageous, and you’re a stoic, so it’s going to be okay I suppose. One has to press toward other goals for the future, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead.
Life has many surprises, and this may be a great opportunity to do or start something new, something you d never thought of. Who knows!
You have a nice restful and peaceful weekend. Hugs.
Hi Nisor,
Good Saturday to you!
I’m still in bed (12:30 local time), drinking coffee reading, thinking, reflecting, dialoguing in head… weekend mornings in bed is so enjoyable — no rush to go anywhere or to do anything….
“You’re approaching a finishing line, as I understand in May, to handle your LE, and your job situation. Difficult times ahead of you, I can see. You’re being tested on all fronts , but whatever you do, do not panic!”
I got the news of the possible termination of my program on Aug. 10th, so it’s 6 months old, no longer freshly shocking. I’ve accepted it as an irreversible fact, and constantly thought about what I want my next life phrase to be in a larger scope. Of course, it’s up to my own design.
After reading some of LwL posts over 7 months and by comparison, I consider myself being more resilient in facing and handling adversities, due to my COO’, Father’s training, and Buddhism/Stoicism tradition and my own practices of them — Life is PERPETUALLY unpredictable, and one MUST mentally prepare for all kinds of “WORST” — a healthy mentality practice. So when any worst strikes, one is not crashed but could face it with a calm smile, “Ah, I know it would happen… let’s see what I need to do now…”
I didn’t prepare enough for Father’s sudden brain stroke, that’s why I got the worst psychological hit so badly when he passed away in 9 days. Then, I slipped into LE’s grip. There was a peaceful and sweet 9 months after Glimmer to the beginning of LE. But this LE did wind down from last April to June before I even found LwL, through which I’ve learned and understood so much better what had happened to me during LE and why. A lot of times, even just understanding and awareness of an issue can dissolve that issue in half…. My eternal thanks to DrL’s efforts to assist all of us!
Based on my own LE and learning from LwL, I am convinced that LE cannot be switched off in a day, or a week, or in however long. I had a faith back in the summer that I could turn it off soon, since my emotion was ready – LO appeared annoying and cold in my head during his physical absence in summer. Meanwhile, my effective meditation is helping me tremendously.
But when the Fate stepped in, my psychology changed. We humans often believe we could manage our own life and tend to take matters in our own trying hands instead of “waiting to be slaughtered” by any kind of external force or Fate. We also often un-appreciate what we already have, but value it only when it is threatened to be taken away or when it’s already gone.
That’s what happened with my attitude towards LO. I didn’t/don’t want keeping my unrequited LE for the Phantom in my head, but wished I could change it to an unrequited Philia love for a friend, who has not done much damages to my life, except my ego-pride. But an ending of my work would take opportunities away for making such efforts and positive changes.
“Probably you ll have sorrow for detaching from LO, since it’s a feeling you had whether real or an illusion. And yet, you have been working and preparing for “that day” for a while now, it will not be a sudden surprise.”
My LE’s symptoms, either ups or downs, were mostly gone last spring and I was experiencing the postal melancholy phrase as I discussed with Mila in early Fall. But a new sorrow of no longer able to physically seeing and interacting with LO (I did not have other expectations by then) strongly kicked in. I thought about more LC back in the Fall and this Spring semester, but simply could not do it: a permanent departure is surely coming on a specific day, why rush it? As my father often said, “We are all going to die, why rush it with a suicide?”
“The departure from the premises of the Institute, may affect you more, I guess? “
Yes, that’s another big mental crash; fulfilling teaching, learning from students, leading a study abroad program, socializing with caring and supportive colleagues…. will be all gone after May, I’ll feel like “homeless”! But luckily, I’m not under a financial stress (with my frugal lifestyle), and can take my time to look for a new post, full-time or part-time.
“One needs to be strong and courageous, and you’re a stoic, so it’s going to be okay I suppose. One has to press toward other goals for the future, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead.”
I don’t have other bigger goals in overall life. I consider myself as an “artist of life” in mind and sprit (stoicism/buddhism is just one specific mechanism to help any realistic goals). Because I don’t morally JUDGE but equally value all my experiences by trying to “paint” them as accurately as possible on the canvas of my individual life. A great artist is an observant, depicting life as it was/is, no matter how painful or dark it was/is. In my small 👁️, propaganda arts (religions and ideology involved) are lacking authentic, esthetic beauties, due to their subjective goals.
So I will not forget or trash my past experiences no matter how unpleasant and painful they were/are, but remember them either in mind or in words. In addition, we all learn, mature and evolve from all our adversary experiences, don’t we (Buddhism)? So my LE memories, whether realistic with LO or illusive with the phantom, will be kept (I’ve kept over 1500 missives/monologues from this LE), so in my death bed, I will have it, along with other previous memories, to recall on and feel gratified: Ah, after all I’ve had worthy experiences!
“Life has many surprises, and this may be a great opportunity to do or start something new, something you d never thought of. Who knows!”
You’re absolutely right. That’s another reason I picked up piano learning, which I always wanted to do since childhood. If not now, when? My mind has been adventurous enough to try any worthy endeavors, the edge of the earth is only limit.
Nisor, I so appreciate your forever cheering me up, encouraging me, and inspiring me to think about new and courageously face unknowns in the future.…
Big bear hugs to your way! 🫂
Hi. LE has been a bittersweet experience, that’s how I can sum it up as. The highs are awesome, one is literally on cloud 9. The lows, on the other hand, suck big time. SOs are present for both, so it’s an impossible situation really. Would I turn it off? Right now, I would say yes, as the lows were very scary. Not to mention the loss of productivity. Maybe after the passage of time, one can offer a more objective analysis.
I have to admit that sometimes I envy people who apparently never become limerent; however, it seems that these same people are less empathetic, less creative, and sometimes less agreeable; they don’t seem to experience the world as fully and vividly as curious people do – they seem to be literally less conscious. (I guess I’m suggesting that limerents are innately more curious.) This said, I’d think wishing to disable your limerence switch is a lot like “wishing to be somebody else”, or like musing over counterfactuals like “What if my mother had had a child (me?) with someone else other than my father”. Obviously, if “you” had had a different father, you would be “somebody else” (not you); and they may very well have lacked a pesky limerence switch. (Maybe we could bring back ice pick lobotomies.) So no, I don’t think turning off limerence would even be a good idea, even if it were posible, despite the baggage that comes with it.
I will say though, Interestingly, that a couple of my LOs apparently could turn their emotions on-and-off like flipping a light switch.
I am glad that I had the experiences that I did have of limerence because it brought me insight into myself and this personality quirk. But I am even more glad that I can avoid it now that I know what it is and how I play a part in it.
Being married and feeling limerent for another man is too hard on me. And my limerent brain tried last year to find a replacement, and just when it did I fought it consciously, and it worked.
I do not belive limerence is something that one can turn “off” and it’s gone. It’s an internal struggle. It will always be with me because it is a quirk in my personality, my being, my brain.
It’s a part of me that kind of distorts reality. I have learned to navigate according to my belief system as a Christian. When it is “turned on” or activated it makes me feel and act like an adulteress (in my thoughts, which has great potential to lead to actions). I can’t live that way.
I am so glad this site gave it a name, and gave me real tools to fight it, to process it, and understand it.
I would 100% turn it off. I’m going through my first LE and it’s hell. I’m married and so is he, managed to go NC for 5 weeks and it’s been one of the hardest things I’ve gone through. And I’m still going through it. And I’ve never even met him, it’s all been an online thing. Crazy.
The only good thing to have come out of it is that I’ve lost weight and got fitter. That’s it. Hopefully never again. Before realising what limerence was, I really did think I was going mad. At first it was magical, oh yes, like being a teen again, actually even better. But once the obsessiveness set in, that was it. It turned into a horror story, all in my head. So no thank you, once is enough.
Exact same here!
Craziness for sure. I’m middle aged and I never thought in a million years that I could fall for someone over the internet!
Boggles the mind.
I’m a little over 2 months NC.
Good luck to the both of us.
Hi Anna, nice to meet you! Haven’t spoken to anyone who became limerent for someone they met online. I’m middle aged too, lovely husband and kids, great job, great life and here I am, getting over an obsession. I’m in the stage where I’m embarrassed about the whole thing, can’t quite believe what’s happened the past 6 months. Don’t know if that’s a stage at all tbh. I’m not pining over him or even having positive thoughts about him, just cringing although he’s still in my head and I wish he wasn’t. Wish I’d gone NC in a different way, think I’m a bit traumatised about how I ended it. But I’m learning from it. And I’m being kind to myself. Would love to find out more about your LE. Good luck to you too! We’re doing well
Oh my goodness, Gemma, I totally see myself in your comments! I’m married, middle-aged, was happilly going on with my life until this LE. A former colleague, we always had that glimmer but never did anything about it… he lives on the other side of the country and started messaging me about 8 months ago.
I totally fell for it and LIVED for his messages. Then, one day a couple months ago, the frequency stopped and my world collapsed. SO WEIRD. I’m usually a rational, calm, “on top of things” type person and this experience just completeld shook me. I’m SO GRATEFUL for this blog, Dr L’s book and this community!
Going NC..but every now and then, I still might initiate or find some great way to connect.
I don’t think I’d choose to turn it off though. I am fitter now, look better, eat healthier. Sure, I’m down now (because I doubt LO and I will ever meet up), but the side effect of this has been net positive (even with the slight very sad episodes!)
Hi Gemma!
Sorry it’s taken so long to reply, so busy with work!
I’m exactly at the same stage you are, shaking my head wondering what the hell just happened?
Yes, met him online (social media) it was innocent enough at first, we just started chatting over things we had in common.
And before I knew what was happening I was getting up everyday and the first thing I did was to check to see if he messaged me.
Wish I knew back then what I know now, it would of saved me alot of hurt and anxiety!
Anyway, we carried on for quite a few months, it was so exciting!
I’m single and work from home so my life was a bit hum~drum.
We were making plans to meet when he started ghosting and making excuses why any dates I proposed wouldn’t work for him.
I started feeling rejected and that’s when the” OMG what’s happening” set in.
So, after some digging I found out he was lying about everything!
He was married and coupled with a few other things I discovered it hit me I was dealing with a Narcissist.
Can’t believe I didn’t see it lol Damn you Limerence!
I also can’t believe how gullible I was, like I was born yesterday and so naive how sinister SM can be.
So, I ended it right then, didn’t say anything to him, just went NC right then and there. (almost 3 months now)
Don’t know if he has tried to reach out, I have him blocked everywhere.
I’m like you, cringing, disgusted that I fell for it all.
Just the thought of him causes me a lot of anxiety.
But I can’t get him out of my head
The good thing about all of this is I started going to therapy to try to unravel the mystery of why I fall for these type of men and why I don’t see the red flags when they were so blatantly waving in my face!
Good Luck Gemma, please know you are not alone in this.
“Would you turn off your limerence?”
This is a very interesting question. Of course, it can be divided into two questions: (1) “Would you turn off your propensity for limerence in general?” and (2) “Would you turn off your limerent attraction for a particular LO?” I believe the blog post Dr. L writes poses the former question.
We can look to history and literature to help us answer this question. The British writer A. S. Byatt, author of a novel called “Possession”, said that “sexual embarrassment” is a topic that’s not written about/discussed often enough.
I don’t think Byatt was referring to mechanical failure in the bedroom or mismatched libidos between partners. I believe the “sexual embarrassment” Byatt refers to is the embarrassment of liking someone who doesn’t like one back. Or, alternatively, the embarrassment of being liked by someone one doesn’t like back.
In other words, limerence can lead to a great deal of awkwardness (when two people aren’t on the same page) that some people would rather avoid altogether. These people may wish to turn off the switch on their limerence. (Or they might wish to turn off other people’s limerence switches! Now there’s a thought!) 🤣
On the other hand, we have the Irish poet W. B. Yeats who fell madly in love (or limerence, more likely) with fellow Irish patriot, Maud Gonne. (I like to say he was “a goner for Gonne”. Yeats proposed marriage to Gonne at least once, and she turned him down.
Gonne knew that Yeats’ passion for her made him very, very unhappy. However, she took the line that Yeats’ unhappiness inspired him to write beautiful poetry (often about Gonne) and that this beautiful poetry indirectly made Yeats happy.
I don’t think Gonne felt particularly guilty about Yeats’ (unrequited) love for her – she saw that Yeats’ unrequited love greatly enhanced Yeats’ creative output. If Yeats were alive, he might tell us that he didn’t wish to turn off the switch on his limerence, at least not for the first thirty years of his adult life, because he was producing so much good work and that his “muse” wasn’t opposed to playing the “muse” role in his life.
Sammy,
I could not help think/feel Yeats’s case is applicable in yours….
I myself could not scrabble one substantial word when I was giddy or happy… every single line, even just 3-4 words, came out of pains, or longings, or sighs… which would be somehow released after their completion — then a temporary happiness?
@Snowphoenix.
“I could not help think/feel Yeats’s case is applicable in yours….”
Yes, I see some parallels between Yeats’ situation and mine. Yeats’ was rumoured to be an Aspie also. 😉
I think when artists take to the pen/paint/clay to immortalise their beloved, what they’re really trying to capture and/or explain is … the feeling of ecstasy that goes off inside one’s brain when one beholds one’s beloved. In their work, a lot of artists are trying to answer the question: “What is sexual allure? Every LO clearly has ‘sexual allure’ in spades, but what IS sexual allure exactly?”
I think this “feeling of ecstasy” that artists/limerents/limerent-artists have is indeed a sexual response to beauty. But it’s a sexual response to beauty that has somehow been transformed and cerebralised. (Is cerebralised a real word?)
In other words, one experiences attraction inside one’s head and one is paralysed/spellbound by what one sees. Hence, the “deer-in-headlights” look so many limerents classically display around LOs. (Or course, one might be paralysed/spellbound because one is also involved in deep analysis of what LO’s behaviour means or what I, limerent, should now be doing to win over LO and/or not repel LO). 😊
Basically, sexual attraction is something that one should feel (I imagine) very much in one’s body. It’s the body that’s supposed to be sexual and not the brain. But, for some reason, limerents have this sexual response concentrated in their brains I think… Maybe this is the true meaning of “Eros”? I.e. Eros is a sexual response that takes place primarily in one’s brain and not in one’s body?
Limerence becomes a problem when one keeps “bleeding feelings of ecstasy” in response to a given individual. In normal people, the attraction response lessens over time. In limerents, the attraction response may keep growing stronger wih the passage of time, thereby causing distress. 🤔
Most great artists are lifelong limerents – otherwise they wouldn’t have the patience/obsessive desire to keep creating in response to fairly-limited stimuli e.g. one particular type of woman, one particular type of man. 😜
@Sammy,
Wow, 🎇 Have you thought of writing a lyric/prose to glorify limerence itself, its inexpressible sparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark sky like a comet? You’re finally praising the bright side of limerence! (Unlike Sammy when I first bumped into LwL) 🤗🤗
“Yes, I see some parallels between Yeats’ situation and mine. Yeats’ was rumoured to be an Aspie also. “
If I had just 1% of Yeats’ talent, I would still keep his beloved, Gonne, in distance, so the longing would keep my imaginary, creative work going. By experiences, I vaguely know that once a form of consummation is reached, my intense inexpressible emotions would decrease or even cease, like my marriage did to me. It is somewhat like the excitement that exists in chase/hunt, once a prey is in hand, one loses energy to continue. To artists, LO is fuel, prey is their creation.
From what I’ve heard that Aspies could intensely concentrate on their interested subject at least 4 times more than neurotypicals, and their memories are beyond “normal” comprehension. Albert Einstein, Darwin, Bill Gates, Elon Musk. Anthony Hopkins, Greta Thunberg, Woody Allen, Andy Warhol, Emily Dickson… are just a few of Aspies.
“I think when artists take to the pen/paint/clay to immortalise their beloved, what they’re really trying to capture and/or explain is … the feeling of ecstasy that goes off inside one’s brain when one beholds one’s beloved. “
Not just “feelings of ecstasy”, but a whole range of other emotions, would go into their head first and then artistic creations. Their beloved, beheld, unavailable, or far away, or even died, fuel their brain and soul to express their rich emotions through their creative works.
“In their work, a lot of artists are trying to answer the question: “What is sexual allure? Every LO clearly has ‘sexual allure’ in spades, but what IS sexual allure exactly?”
I think this question goes into many “normal” people’s head (may stay short), but particularly limerents’ head. I believe sexual allure is directly linked to biological instinct, infused with cultural flares, so no one could figure it out with their intellect, but just feel it. (It somewhat fits my own magnetic theory. ) But artists strive for their work to capture this sexual allure, at least showing it to themselves.
“I think this “feeling of ecstasy” that artists/limerents/limerent-artists have is indeed a sexual response to beauty. “
Superficial physical “beauty” is on a beholder’s eyes. I remember that I liemrented for fairly common looking boys (at HS), and I could not understand why, even during my LE with them!
“But it’s a sexual response to beauty that has somehow been transformed and cerebralised. (Is cerebralised a real word?)”
Precisely! As I’ve said all along, it’s a phantom of LO, which has been cerebralised, with which limerent is in limerence . That was why my mind could not remember LO’s realistic face, working under my nose, after so many years, but only the vague facial outline. Even his video clips could not help my inner eye 👁️ see and remember his realistic eyes (only one’s eyes matter to me). How ridiculously puzzling one’s brain could be!
“In other words, one experiences attraction inside one’s head and one is paralysed/spellbound by what one sees.”
Also by what one senses simultaneously, five senses, all at instinctual levels….
“Hence, the “deer-in-headlights” look so many limerents classically display around LOs.”
Especially at the beginning stage after the Glimmer. At that stage, all knowledge about largely unknown LO is from 6 senses, not intellect.
“Basically, sexual attraction is something that one should feel (I imagine) very much in one’s body. It’s the body that’s supposed to be sexual and not the brain.”
I think one may feel it both in body and brain. It’s a part of brain — hypothalamus, that produces love hormone, isn’t it? Some people feel their entire body is on fire, all neurons are helplessly flared up upon encountering LO or in reveries/imaginations.
“But, for some reason, limerents have this sexual response concentrated in their brains I think… “
I agree with you here without supporting data, but my own experiences. I posted once that some research points out that the sexiest human organ is brain/mind. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/sep/07/neuroscientists-sex-brain — “Sexiest parts of the body revealed by neuroscientists”, the Guardian
“Maybe this is the true meaning of “Eros”? I.e. Eros is a sexual response that takes place primarily in one’s brain and not in one’s body?”
I still do not grasp the concept of “Eros”. It’s a Western concept, coming from Greek mythology. I personally think/feel “Eros” is in one’s brain. I had some nearly perfect SE in body but could not have 2 (out of 10) ounces of Eros towards those male partners. Now, without ever touching LO’s one finger for nearly 7 years, he’s still in my head and dreams, although I feel little or even strange standing in front of him very logically chitchatting… my neural system no longer goes helplessly “crazy” — blush on a wrinkled face like a tongue tight teenager! In hindsight, I feel mortified!
“Limerence becomes a problem when one keeps “bleeding feelings of ecstasy” in response to a given individual.”
If limerents expect little or no in recipraction, keeping ecstasy would be not a big problem. But based on what I hear from posters in LwL, many limerents could not help (addicted) want more, even if they have a loving SO and a family.
“In normal people, the attraction response lessens over time. In limerents, the attraction response may keep growing stronger wih the passage of time, thereby causing distress. “
Again I think distress comes from unrequited desires, not pure love-giving emotions. I feel what I’m talking now is unrequited love, no longer self-centered limerence…
“Most great artists are lifelong limerents – otherwise they wouldn’t have the patience/obsessive desire to keep creating in response to fairly-limited stimuli e.g. one particular type of woman, one particular type of man. “
Indeed! A LO of artists, I’m certain, is an imagined, idealized phantom of realistic LO very much alive in their head, not any particular type of man or woman. If these artists wish, they could rekindle their limerence’s fire just by imagining and creating better artistic works.
Your posts carry a potential danger to rekindle limerence ashes of a 🔥 bird…. they definitely stimulate a curious but semi-depressed mind… 😄
@Snowphoenix.
“Wow, 🎇 Have you thought of writing a lyric/prose to glorify limerence itself, its inexpressible sparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark sky like a comet? You’re finally praising the bright side of limerence! (Unlike Sammy when I first bumped into LwL) 🤗🤗”
I wasn’t trying to glorify limerence itself. I think I was trying to explain the feelings, or the origins of feelings, that people find so intriguing and rewarding – at least initially.
Maybe your “sparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark sky” is just The Gilmmer? Maybe artists are trying to portray their LO around the time of The Glimmer or just after The Glimmer, and that’s why a lot of art shows idealised representations of men/women?
I’m not really praising the bright side of limerence – not intentionally, anyway. I’m just describing the early stages of still-unconscious physical attraction that someone might conceivably feel.
“our posts carry a potential danger to rekindle limerence ashes of a 🔥 bird…. they definitely stimulate a curious but semi-depressed mind… 😄”
I don’t want to rekindle limerence in anyone – certainly not in anyone who hasn’t found the experience pleasant overall. I think freedom from limerence may entail acknowledging certain people have great sexual allure, and that’s lovely, but it doesn’t mean they’re destined to become one’s partner.
I think one has to learn to appreciate beauty without wanting to possess beauty. (If one tries to possess beauty, one usually destroys beauty, or destroys one’s ability to enjoy beauty).
Now that I’ve lost most of my sexual allure, I seem to be able to admire sexual allure in others without really fantasising about a relationship. It’s a more neutral admiration. Sort of like: “Oh, So-and-so is nice-looking. Good for So-and-so!” Others may disagree with me, but there’s a real freedom in not being an active player anymore in the mating game. Observer status is kind of fun. 😜
„I think one has to learn to appreciate beauty without wanting to possess beauty.“
That’s the crux of the matter and the root of limerence pain, or at least mine. I would like to appreciate the beauty of the persons I’m limerent for (not necessarily a physical beauty, more a blend of personality, wit, abilities, and of course physical features too) and also the beauty of my feelings, without this need to have more or to be wanted too. It complicates everything.
It would be so great to have these feelings of being alive and having this warm and special affection for a person without always wanting more, validation, closer contact etc.
@Mila.
“That’s the crux of the matter and the root of limerence pain, or at least mine. I would like to appreciate the beauty of the persons I’m limerent for (not necessarily a physical beauty, more a blend of personality, wit, abilities, and of course physical features too) and also the beauty of my feelings, without this need to have more or to be wanted too. It complicates everything.
It would be so great to have these feelings of being alive and having this warm and special affection for a person without always wanting more, validation, closer contact etc.”
Wow! You express your feelings in such an elegant way, Mila. 😛
Sammy ,
Don’t make fun of me🙈
I‘m too lazy to check my English for grammar etc, just hope that the meaning comes across somehow.
Kudos to you for your elegant and witty style!
Sammy,
“I wasn’t trying to glorify limerence itself. I think I was trying to explain the feelings, or the origins of feelings, that people find so intriguing and rewarding – at least initially.”
Oh, dear! As a writer/poet, don’t you know that any writer’s intentions have been understood in millions of different ways, depending on who is reading the works? Essentially, active readers are reading/responding to themselves through the lens of writers’ words. In this aspect, you’ve got to read more of Proust — a brilliant member of your clan!
“In reality, every reader, while he is reading, is the reader of his own self. The writer’s work is merely a kind of optical instru-ment, which he offers to the reader to permit him to discern what, without the book, he would perhaps never have seen in himself. The reader’s recognition in his own self of what the book says is the proof of its truth.” —Marcel Proust, Le temps retrouvé
“Maybe your “sparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark sky” is just The Gilmmer? Maybe artists are trying to portray their LO around the time of The Glimmer or just after The Glimmer, and that’s why a lot of art shows idealised representations of men/women?”
My Glimmer(s) “sparkled” mostly quiet in LEs, it’s like that electricity flicked on the tram’s two external poles in the Movie “Doctor Zhivago”. It’s like a neural switch in my head was literally silently flipped, vaguely or clearly. Then the feeling of ambivalence followed and stayed on for days or months. If able to encounter LO again soon, it would be somehow verified. This was the cases with LO #1, #4, a graduate student in literature LO# 4.3 and that lady-killer gay man LO #4.7. That electrified click in my head was “loud” and clear, and startled me inside immediately.
In the latest LE, I bumped into LO for the 2nd time without him noticing me, I paused for a few seconds wondering about my first vague Glimmer. Then it went away for 4 months (due to the summer break of 2017). On the 3rd time after he spotted my sideline, revealing glancing at him in the hallway, smiled back, and then eagerly introduced himself to me a couple of hours later in the lounge, the 4 month old glimmer was verified — my face blushed helplessly….
“Sparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark sky” were my reveries, independent from the reality and LOs’ realistic reactions. As I mentioned before, due to my traumatic experiences in that weekcare, I must have unconsciously developed imaginative ability, just “naturally” inventing non-existent magics. Without much realistic expectations from the unavailable LO, “sparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark sky” was mostly on for 4 years, with the surrogate-parental Phantom accompanying me in the head — everything followed, in reacting to the original source of cptsd.
“I’m not really praising the bright side of limerence – not intentionally, anyway. I’m just describing the early stages of still-unconscious physical attraction that someone might conceivably feel.”
I only subconsciously sensed that physical attraction was there in each of my LE, most of LOs were gorgeous (with the exception of LO# 3, #6, and #4.5). But I almost never consciously felt sexually aroused while physically encountering them; arousal mostly occurred in the reveries. To me, anything imagined is “naturally” more fascinating and powerful than reality. X-rated videos or photos, aside from erotic paintings or drawings like in “Erotica”, boarded me to death; they leave no room for imaginative allures.
“I don’t want to rekindle limerence in anyone – certainly not in anyone who hasn’t found the experience pleasant overall. “
Again Dear Bro, it’s not up to your intentions, but what the reader perceives in their head through your creative verbal lens.
“I think freedom from limerence may entail acknowledging certain people have great sexual allure, and that’s lovely, but it doesn’t mean they’re destined to become one’s partner.”
Absolutely true! I’ll go further that if that sexual allure is possessed by limerents, it will most likely go away (my marriage); non-limerents may appreciate it better. I feel lucky that such sexual allures, even unattainable, ever existed in my life for a period of time, short or long. For some people, no LO ever landed in their domain…
“I think one has to learn to appreciate beauty without wanting to possess beauty. (If one tries to possess beauty, one usually destroys beauty, or destroys one’s ability to enjoy beauty).”
That’s one of essential teachings of Tibetan Buddhism — just appreciate what it is out there without further desire to own, unless they accidentally drop into your plate. Once a desired being possessed, the desire for it ALWAYS disappear — I get bored in 3 days with anything I purchased (not made or grown by my own hands or mind) and felt the puzzling depression on the commencement afternoon before I took off my graduation gown (after walking to the ceremony stage 3 times for writing prizes). My mind went, “Now, what’s the next?”
“Desire makes everything blossom; possession makes everything wither and fade.” – Proust
“There must be something inaccessible in what we love, something to pursue; we love only what we do not possess…” — Proust
“Now that I’ve lost most of my sexual allure, I seem to be able to admire sexual allure in others without really fantasising about a relationship. “
How do you know about the loss? Beauty or sexual allure is on a beholder’s eyes! What you see in yourself and what others see in you could be as different as Mars from Venus. Those Somatic narcissists may think they have a fabulous, alluring appearance and physique, but they could appear quite common or even obnoxious to anti-narcissism eyes.
“It’s a more neutral admiration. Sort of like: “Oh, So-and-so is nice-looking. Good for So-and-so!”
I’ve always had little idea about what the word “nice” means when used to describe either people’s appearance and personality. A lot of Easterners are “afraid” of or uncomfortable about Western physical features, simply due to large differences. I have a crooked 👁️. My Unconscious has more “blizzard” visions! 😵💫
“Others may disagree with me, but there’s a real freedom in not being an active player anymore in the mating game. Observer status is kind of fun. “
Understandable! But I would rather be an observer without closing any door for any unknowns — my definition of “open-mindedness.” Cliche: Never say “never”!
Life can be fun, adventurous, and colorful when one does not hammer nails onto any box… including that Pandora Box, which I am not afraid but helplessly curious, with my limited, progressing Stoic and Buddhistic shield… 🛡️
Speaking with you and posting here somehow make me more settled inside and outside… I think it’s because I learn more about myself, all my demons from within…. It’s really like taking Jung’s individuation journey with audience, more powerful than taking it in solitude. 💃🏻
Mika,
Aspies always say what they mean and mean what they say, sometimes their frankness could embarrass or anger one. So take Sammy’s compliment to heart.
Your insight of the crux of appreciating beauty in limerence/LOs is enlightening, a wise recognization or reminder to all of us here.
Now, the danger to me is that I see my LO as a cake now (although with an aging spot on his face, and a small balding spot on his hairline), 🍰 no longer a surrogate parent for a self-therapy… what shall I do with a piece of alluring cake nearby? 😇
Well, Snowphoenix,
Since I stopped eating sugar for a while since yesterday, my advice would be, throw the cake into the trash or offer it to somebody else, it’s definitely not good for your health and will lift your mood only for a few moments;)
@Mila,
Your advice is taken! Since the “cake” does not belong to me but his SO, his pet LO, and maybe more, I’ll walk around it, apprenticing its beauty (with a flare of sadness due to his recent misfortune) in distance…
Once upon a time, I was bingeing on mint chocolate chip icecream during LE with a long-distanced, fatherly like, but playboy LO #4.5, I’d eat a whole jar of it in the evening and then vomit it out immediately, that was the level of my limerence pains. Then, a month later, I went to 10-day silent Vipassana Retreat for the first time, and never had any bingeing on anything ever since. Silent meditation is so powerful to me…
Stay on with your sugar-free regime! 💪Or use Honey or your favorite fruits to substitute if you have to. You’ll feel so much mental clarity and lightness in limbs even after just a week… ✊🏻
@Mila.
“Don’t make fun of me🙈”
I’m not making fun of you. But maybe I am projecting something onto you? 😇
Your style of writing strikes me as refined, elegant. There’s a kind of “classiness” to it. You clearly have strong feelings, but you never stray into “crassness”.
I feel that in my own writing, sometimes a bit of “crassness” creeps in. And I would like to master the more refined style you display.
I also like how you relate “beauty” to more than just looks. I was waiting for someone to make that connection, and you did. 😉
Are you sure you’re an ESL speaker? 😆 If you were enrolled in an Australian high school, and write the way you write, we’re put you in the extension English stream i.e. the stream for people with advanced English skills. Correct grammar isn’t everything. 😜
Sammy,
Thanks for the flattering words, but I know my shortcomings:)
It’s actually funny because I studied for one year in London, and my English flatmate and friends told me that my pronunciation was classy. I think they just liked that it was more British than American.
In the meantime I read sometimes in English but speak very little, so my pronunciation has gone to seed, I guess.
But I appreciate a good turn of phrase like yours or other limerents here. Everyone has a different way and style, I enjoy that very much, it’s so interesting.
Mika,
Lucky you easy to obtain a British tone, my English accent would crash a camel’s hemp!
That’s why I like playing English words in scrabbling… otherwise, Sammy would give up any attempts to edit whatever I have to utter, but slightly raises his eyebrows with Buddhistic smiles, and stealthy swallows helpless sighs…. 😄
I love my wife! I love her! She is the love of my life! And I am an idiot. But appreciative of her grace and love. I’d be a disaster without her. I love my wife!!!!
LOL Adam, LOL 😆
Good for you Adam!
Would I turn it off if I could?
Yes, yes I would.
BUTTTTTT
It certainly was a colorful time in my life.
And it drove me to therapy.
I lived most of my life in beige, not happy, not sad, just going through the motions. AI like.
Limerence kicked the crap out of that! lol
I agree with a lot of you that it stems back to unmet childhood needs
With the help of my therapist we peeled away at it and as soon as we got to the subject of my parents, the bricks started to fall.
My Co-dependent Mother and my Narcissistic Father. BINGO!
So ,no surprise that both of my LO’s were Narcissists, especially the last one and I’m not throwing that term around lightly.
The push/pull, hot/cold, no reciprocation for any achievements I ever accomplished. Silently begging for attention. The whole nine yards of it.
I remember the last thing my therapist said last week: “We are going to start working on you beginning to love yourself and we will go from there”
As I was walking to my vehicle after, I thought to myself “What kind of sorcery is she talking about? Pfffttt, Love Myself? Now that’s a concept!
I have a LOT of work to do.
You WILL reach the state of loving YOURSELF and not hating/being mad at others, including those who have hurt you (un)intentionally, no matter what kind of hells you have been through… seemingly not as hellish as mine, based on what I’ve learned from your posts.
Please recognize that the deep root of Narcissism is INSECURITY of (un)aware Narcissists (usually from their troublesome childhood), not an innate evil to HURT others. They try to control and manipulate others in order to fill that bottomless hole of the insecurity, but always in! I know this because my Mother was a hard-core Narc, and Dad had some “amicable” narcissistic traits, as well as myself. Everyone has some in order to survive or thrive in this world.
It’s going to take a lot of efforts to change habitual mentality from the mainstream cultural scripts….
Yes, I have been educating myself on Narcissism, wow, my father to a tee.
He had a terrible childhood I do know.
I take after my mother, actually all of us have.
Walking on egg shells around my father as not to upset him.
You know, I have lived my life like this really not knowing any better.
The old saying “It is what it is” comes to mind.
This where I have to thank Limerence.
If I had never “fallen in” nothing would have changed!
As painful as it is, it woke me up from my mundane existence.
I am grateful, I’m full of anxiety and the Limerence lows right now, but still grateful.
Cultural Scripts, they shape us unconsciously.
That’s a key component in my midlife languishing perhaps.
It’s the water we all swim in, until we decide to get out.
Thank You Snowpheonix and everyone else here.
What a group!
You’re welcome, Anna.
Many of Easterners firmly believe that there is blessing in disguise in everything, even in black matters or seemingly dire misfortunes, only if we look at them from different angles, or wait out patiently to see what will happen in a longer run.
Your experience has proved such a belief — a perhaps life-time positive change out of a limerence episode! Once awake, you’ll never go back to the previous passive existence; a lot of your potentials will be recognized through therapies and self-reflections, and it’s never too late to dig them out.
Human spirit never ages if we nourish it consciously and organically, do not let any cultural cliche-scripts “mind-control” our spirit that can always sprout and bloom in all seasons…
Best wishes!
Correction: “always in vain”
RANT!!!
I may be rethinking my stance on not turning off Limerence.
I was doing quite well, therapy was going good and I thought I was beginning to finally get a handle on all of this crazy nonsense.
I was making an effort to get out more with friends and a couple of weeks ago I met someone and we really hit off.
We talked most of the evening and laughed on how much we had in common.
I gave him my number and we texted almost daily usually multiple times.
I promised myself that I would NOT turn him into LO#3!
He seemed to be as much into me as I was with him.
I was feeling really good about the whole thing.
And I was being super careful not to come across as desperate LOL
Yeah, you hear a BUT coming right?
You’re right.
Last Thursday we were talking and he wanted to get together on the weekend and I said that would be great.
That’s the last I heard from him, I got ghosted.
Not a peep, not an explanation, nothing.
I refuse to reach out to him because well, quite frankly I have dealt with that before. I will not succumb to going back and acting like I did with LO#1 and LO#2
Been there done that.
No more rabbit hole for me!
Anyway, as good as I was feeling about myself before quickly deteriorated.
All of the bad crappy feelings of not being good enough, smart enough, good looking enough resurfaced. I spiraled.
Sorry for who ever reads this but I had to get it off my chest.
It’s Tuesday evening now and as I sit here and reflect, I have come to the realization that (I knew this before) it doesn’t MATTER who is giving us the attention, the validation etc…
Our LO’s are just that, OBJECTS that are giving us what we so desperately crave.
What is missing in us. (me anyway)
That we are not invisible, that we are desirable and we are worthy of love.
So, in a nutshell I still have quite the journey ahead of me.
I will get there.
Another lesson learned to take it one day at a time and not to judge my self-worth in anyone else.
@Anna,
I’m listening to you here!
I think you’re doing very WELL in terms of handling this “mysterious” guy, watching and understanding what has been going on inside you.
That’s been a fruit I’ve take from LwL, becoming more aware and watchful of my mind and heart… once we pause and analyze them, we would find some cautions and answers for ourselves, which in itself is a progress.
Yes, take it one day at a time, and gradually learn how NOT to judge ourselves, especially through someone else’s subjective lens. What we see ourselves in our mind is ALWAYS more valid and important than what is going on in others’ mind about us — anyway, one could never truly know…
🫂
Thanks Snow! I appreciate you!
Oddly enough after I posted this I got a text from “mystery man”
He said “oh hi, I’m sorry but I forgot I was teaching a martial arts class this weekend”
I didn’t respond
Bye, Bye Mystery Man
I’m going to self the dating scene for a while.
*shelve
@Snowphoenix.
I wrote a variation on your poem for you:
Snowphoenix’s original:
The Closing Door —
I see the door firmly closing
with no open window in slight
I see the coffin in waiting
to be lowered to a rightful slot
perhaps after a silent funeral
in the given, definitive hour?
Under the misty, gray sky
butterflies hide in frozen cocoons.
there is little feasible, fluffy soil
for a limerence burial
Do I carry the cremation like a cross
rambling in the virtual LwL?
Sammy’s arrangement:
The Closing Door
I see the door at last closing
With no open windows in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: “I knew him only slight…”
Beneath an unforgiving sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The frozen soil is resistant
To the gravediggers’ giant spoons.
The cross I wear I wear for him –
My phantom lover, gone too soon!
Sammy,
Your version is so much more poetic and sadly beautiful… right now making me in tears and putting a piece of lead on my chest…
Only a questions: why “unforgiving sky”? What is unforgiven or unforgivable?
It should be only one “I wear”, isn’t it?
@Snowphoenix.
Unforgiving = not the best word choice maybe? I was trying to think of a way to suggest weather that is bad, overcast, gloomy, wintry, melancholy, etc. Something along the lines of “bleak” or “cruel” or “unfriendly to humans”? But maybe you can think of a better word to illustrate your desired meaning?
“It should be only one “I wear”, isn’t it?”
No, in English, saying “I wear” twice is correct here in terms of meaning. The first “I wear” indicates which cross is being talked about i.e. the one around neck. The second “I wear” explains why this cross is being worn.
Also, the repetition creates a nice musical effect that is pleasing to the ear of native English speakers. We hear a nice dramatic quality, and the poem becomes fun to say aloud. The second “I wear” heightens emotion in addition to being correct in terms of meaning. Finally, the structure of your poem requires eight metrical feet per line. If you delete one “I wear”, you’d need to come up with two extra syllables. 😉
I’ll convert the second stanza into second person pronouns (she/her) and change a few words, to see if the meaning gets any clearer for you:
Beneath a melancholy sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter ground is resistant
To the gravediggers’ giant spoons.
The cross she wears she wears for him –
Her phantom lover, gone too soon!
The image I get is of a woman standing in a cemetery. She’s waiting for some burial to take place, but the burial hasn’t occurred yet. The weather is unsuitable for a funeral. No burial can take place and no rebirth can take place either. The man being buried isn’t a real man. The man being buried is a man she’s only loved in her imagination i.e. a dream, a phantom.
Did you like how I turned spades/shovels into “giant spoons” to maintain the rhyme scheme? I thought that was a little stroke of genius myself. 😁
Sammy,
I like the meaning of your version conveys, somewhat different than my original one.
Last night, I thought “unforgiving sky” means Karma we talked about previously, and “the cross” was Sorrow I felt for LO in my nap — seeing his big eyes tearing and then full of tears in a short catnip, right after I walked along a river with a long bridge covered by thick, gray, dreamy mist. It was unbelievably poetic. (Too bad I can’t post that image here)
Yes, I got the meaning of “I wear” twice as soon as I woke up just now, it definitely sounds musical and dramatic, and actually puts more somber weight on the emotion, in my end.
The interesting part is that originally I intended to “carry a cross” for the dying limerence, and we know there cannot be effective, “official” closure for limerence, thus “silent funeral.” But your version is also correct, since a phantom cannot be buried, either. So there are two entities here that seem unable to go “formally”.
I wasn’t thinking about the structure at all (forgot what I had learned in college), when trying to answer your original questions, “Are you in pain?” The shorts lines just sprang out of my mind fairly fast.
Now, your version laments an imminent death of the phantom my mind created (might be always there since childhood, as Nisor suggested) and projected unto LO, not a death of limerence itself, which surely needs to take place. But should a creative source, flowing out of an idealized phantom (consciously a surrogate parent, subconsciously a lover), a part of one’s Self, die along with one LE?
I was immediately touched in tears by your phrase “Phantom lover” (consciously seen as a father figure), which captures the beauty of feelings Mila has talked about. All these years, I have feared most the death of that hard-to-come feeling of “love”, even forever unrequited by a nonexistent phantom. Unable to eat one cake — the desired, should one kill the love — the desire? (We previously discussed about in “limerence” with our own desire, which would undoubtedly lead one to deep blues)
“she/her” is definitely better than “I” in a “formal” poem, not just a poetic Q&A. I loved the image of “giant spoon”! Here is just one gravedigger.
I’ve change a couple of words, please see if metrics are working.
The Closing Door
I see the door at last closing
With no open windows in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: “I knew him in envision…”
Beneath a melancholy sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil is resisting
the gravedigger’s giant spoon.
The cross she wears she wears for him –
Her phantom lover, gone too soon!
Typo: Unable to eat one cake — the desired, should one kill the love for cakes — the desire? (We previously discussed about in “limerence” with our own desire, the death of which would undoubtedly lead one either to a deep melancholy or a colorless existence)
How about “I knew him in reverie — “
Sammy,
Another thought:
If a closure with a realistic LO is futile, then an internal closure with a phantom of LO is feasible, if one wish to kill a part of oneself, isn’t it?
But I’m so unwilling to END/BURY anything….
@Snowphoenix.
I see the door at last closing
With no open windows in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: “I knew him in visions…”
Beneath a melancholy sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil is resisting
The gravedigger’s giant spoon.
The cross she wears she wears for him –
Her phantom lover, gone too soon!
Looks great. I would only change “in envisions” to “in visions” because I think that’s what you wanted to say. And I capitalised a capital at the start of a line you didn’t have capitalised.
It’s your poem, Snow, so you should feel free to play around with it to get it to say whatever you want. The image of someone carrying a cross is just as striking as the image of someone wearing a cross. For some reason, my mind just imagined the pedant on a necklace.
Sammy,
Yes, “in vision”, or ’in imagination” is what I meant to say.
I like what the poem captures now… it expresses an unwillingness to bury even a phantom — a part of one Self. The speaker resists letting go off anything, even intangible, even if she’s “entrapped”. If a phantom can somewhat “free” one’s mind from the “bleak” reality, why bury him?
Now can you help me: I still do not have a clear grasp of the meanings of “carry/wear a cross” for someone or something. Is it to bear “sins” of deceased, or pray for their next life in heaven or wherever, or something more? The image of Jesus carrying that giant cross always feels very heavy to me, after seeing it in many movies, so I use it to describe my heavy heart….
Thanks for a million, Bro! 🤗🫂
Yes, “in vision”, or ’in imagination” is what I meant to say.
@Snowphoenix.
In English, “to carry a cross” means to bear a burden. The image does indeed come from the story of Jesus. In the Gospels, Jesus found his own cross too heavy to bear (on the way to the crucifixion) and so another man – Simon of Cyrene – stepped in to transport Jesus’ cross.
In everyday use, English speakers would probably adapt the phrase in various ways. E.g., “it was a heavy cross to bear” i.e. a big burden, a heavy responsibility. Or: “We all have our crosses to bear” e.g. everyone has sources of hardship and/or potential suffering in life. One might say the latter to commiserate with someone going through a hard time.
If something is a “cross to bear”, it is a source of pain to the person, but also maybe a source of pain that can’t be avoided. E.g., “limerence is a cross I bear”; “a passion for donuts is a cross I bear”. (The term can be used seriously or lightly, as seen above).
“Wearing a cross” is different to “bearing a cross”. When I had the woman in your poem wearing a cross, the cross was more like a gift or a souvenir – something the woman wears on purpose to remember her beloved, a memento of the person missed/absent.
To “carry a cross” regarding someone is also different from “carrying a torch” for someone. “To carry a torch” for someone is to be in love without reciprocation. A “torch song” is a song about unrequited love. (Also can be a song about lost love). Judy Garland was famous for singing torch songs.
Something can “weigh heavy on a person’s heart” too. This means something has caused a person a lot of intense emotions often of a darker hue e.g. sadness, regret.
Sammy,
Thank you for an invaluable English lesson!
Watch out what questions you ask me, if always in the nature of picking up pebbles, chasing butterflies, busking in shimmering silver light, carrying pains, etc, you’ll end up spending your previous time in giving me free lessons in poetry, linguistics, literature, religious studies, and other cultural aspects, and making me spinning under my OCD, helplessly dwelling on words or images for days and night with no end…. Still, It’s my GAIN, despite other stuff around me dim or recede…
How do you pay a “ghost” who does walk somewhere on earth and talk in virtual LwL, whose sparkles you can’t turn off with the tablet switch?
By the way, I like the meaning of “carrying a touch”, which no one else has ever told me. It’s a luring image to use, but not appropriate in my tiny verse, where “wear a cross” is more accurate than “carry a cross”. The Phantom is ideal, mighty Apollo infused with Dionysius, not a burden but a crystal to carry, to have him shine in my knucklehead….🤯
Typo: your precious time…
Snow,
This is an example of a “torch song.”
I have a slightly different definition than Sammy. My definition also failed loves that you won’t let go of.
“My Immortal” – Evanescence (2003)
https://youtu.be/5anLPw0Efmo?feature=shared
@Limerent Emeritus.
“This is an example of a “torch song.”
I have a slightly different definition than Sammy. My definition also failed loves that you won’t let go of.”
Thanks for the link, and for sharing what really could be considered I guess a twenty-first century torch song. 🙂
@LE
Thank you for the link to the song, I like the melody and lyric, which captures a lost love and its pain so well! However, it could hardly happen to a Semi Stoic/semi-Buddhist even still in limerence, like myself. That excruciating sentimentality is not doing good for any party. One’s mentality can be changed to benefit one’s overall wellbeing, without which how could one WISELY love oneself and another and make that love last longer?
Like one of Sammy posts says: love lost, breakups, betrayals, limerence, etc… are a norm of life, it IS the default of life. Why so many people just can’t recognize and accept them, with an equilibrium, and then suffer unnecessary, unwanted pains?
However, artistically capturing sadness and pains through arts, songs, poems, epic stories can be profoundly touching and (sadly) beautiful, evoking resonance, empathy, and compassionate sighs in the audience and readers.
By the way, I can’t stand any hair on a man’s face in any part of it, no matter how gorgeous he is thought by majority. I have no clear reasons for it, just tends to be turned off subconsciously…. 😵💫
Hi all, sorry to jump in but L.Emeritus referencing the band ‘Evanescence’ reminds me of their massive hit ‘bring me to life’. It’s such a great song and also so attuned to limerence ‘wake me up inside’ , that supersonic LE experience of suddenly everything being heightened in technicolor. Do take a listen and turn the volume up loud !
https://youtu.be/UVob6MQQRqk?feature=shared
Btw I like “unforgiving sky” in the poem. I get it, and the “cross to bear” 🙂
@Imho
A different version of the poem, taking on board your suggestions:
She sees the door at last closing
With no open window in sight.
She sees a funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night,
The mourners saying their goodbyes.
She knew him only in visions…
Beneath unforgiving sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil scarcely disturbed
By the gravedigger’s giant spoon.
For him a cross she’ll always bear –
Her phantom lover, gone too soon!
@Imho,
Please never hesitate to join in any conversations, that’s what this forum is for — an open, safe, caring pool for all kinds of minds to swim to and fro, sharing, discussing, debating, learning from each other, and watching over sinking spirits…. Isn’t it?
I love the melody of the song you posted! It’s the “loudest” limerence screaming I’ve ever “heard” — almost hysterical! I think literally ONLY a Christ LO could SAVE the limerent speaker in this song. If I were her so-so LO, I’d drive the Millennium Falcon to run; if I were a good LO, I’d say to her, “I’ve waken you up, now live and thrive!”; if I were a mean LO, I’d somehow put her back to sleep, so she would not clutch her hands on my legs… 🦵
Is “Only one can save Oneself” really an alien idea in the West? To be suddenly struck or “awaken” by LO is human and universal, but a “dying” need to be so desperately “saved?” 🥶 LO is just an ordinary human being, maintaining his/her own psychological health is already a big ongoing load, now a clingy or “clutching” limerent? 🏃🏻♀️ 🏃
I would be very careful to use word “unforgiving” in any poem, in which form every word weights a ton and metaphorically represent or hint something else deeper. Who and what is “unforgiven”, why? What “sins” are involved? Who is doing “(un)forgiving”? Gods from either the East or the West, or Karma from the East? Even in a long prose and poem, the word, “unforgiving” speaks loud about the speaker’s personality…
Sammy: Is the concept of “redemption” in Christianity same as forgiveness of “sinners”, who would get more chances for a rebirth? If so, why a Hell “exists” out there, for whom to go? In Buddhistic traditions, all earthly souls are “suffering” 7 emotions and 6 desires tied up on a Wheel of Life, cycling through life and death, round and round, in the edgeless sea of desires… In laymen, those 7 emotions and 6 desires are all empathized and embraced without “negative” ones being heavily condemned, since EVERYONE has them, no matter how much they might be in denial.
Imho: I’m very curious to know, if you use the image “cross to bear” in my poem, then for whom (limerent? LO? Phantom of LO?) or for what (limerence, unrequited love?) this cross is borne (I assume by the speaker)?
Sammy,
“A different version of the poem, taking on board your suggestions:“
Are you kidding me⁉️ 🙄 That’s NOT my phantom, he must be someone else’s! He’s so unique belonging only to the speaker, why so many mourners present? That’s a Common funeral! 🥺
Despite the pain of unobtainable, the idealized Phantom has given the speaker a lot of pleasures, inspirations to create, to lit up fire, to sparklingly soar across the dark sky, why would the speaker bear a cross for him?
Give the poem to some other limerents here, who would better fit in….
@Snowphoenix.
Even limerents can’t fully understand what goes on in the heads of other limerents. 🤔
Limerence is universal in the sense that all infatuations have certain features in common, such as the characteristics Tennov herself listed, but limerence is also an intensely personal experience, as you point out. A lot of details and desires and fantasies remain forever unique to the individual. Some people might yearn for rebirth. Some people might want to dwell a little longer on the past, or grieve for something/someone they believe they lost. And so on. 😉
Limerents can share ideas on limerence, and that sharing can be very fruitful, but I don’t think limerents can ever offer each other perfect empathy – only approximate empathy. 🙂
Sammy,
Agree! You’re very insightful here! Each of us is so unique, while sharing some common humanities, that our limerence experiences can hugely differ in details — thoughts, sentiments, behaviors, etc.
The reason I’ve been hesitating between burying an old and rebirthing a new is that one has to be very clear what needs to go and what’s need to stay. Do you want to bury that creative and enlivening force which has actually existed all along within limerents but lay dormant, then incidentally awakened by LO/LE??
I thought I created a Phantom after glimmered at LO, and one year later, I already realized the former differed from the latter. Later I saw that the Phantom is growing on its own way, separating himself from LO, slowly in the first 4 years and then fast in the later 2 years. In this vision, the Phantom needs to be buried when LE ends, since he is a foreign object created out of a particular LO/LE.
But Nisor pointed out that this Phantom of mine was created in childhood out of my desperate needs for the unconditional parent love. Later in life, I projected this Phantom onto every LO I encountered — I worked on this with my therapists. So when LE was over, I, the owner, took the Phantom — a part of my old self, back to me. How could I bury a part of myself that is so positively powerful?
I’ll show you again a poem I wrote in last March, when I 100% severed the tie between the Phantom and LO, and let Phantom return to his owner.
Return to His Homeland
In the dreamy dawn of March 15th
A goddess (Athena?) severed the last 1% of the tie
binding the phantom and his human incarnation
by “incriminating” the latter
in front of his sulking teenage son….
It finally yanked his birth-giver
out of her girly willful fantasies
in a whirling rainstorm
threw her into a freezing, turbulent sea
shocked, sunk, surfaced,
squinting at the wavy shore
of melancholy adulthood….
A white, barren gallery room after
an invisible sweeping fire
in the night dream of 9/20/2018
began the human shape of the phantom.
With his originator’s visual and verbal sketching,
unsketching, repainting
in her uninhibited slumbers,
longing daydreams, and
keen observation of the cruel realities
he has stretched out of his human skin
dangling at an edge of the canvas….
Half a decade later,
after the shattered hope to reconnect
the fleshy father and godly “son”
Athena “at a turning in the [creator’s] road”
cut loose the last tying thread
returning the phantom to his homeland —
her imaginative, luminous sphere,
refocusing her gaze at the earthly realm of
the body, mind and spirit violently shaken
by devine buzzes and battles,
with her spirited, shapeless phantom standing by….
March 15-17, 2023
St. Patrick Day
****
It is not easy to read, jammed with so many incidents, images, dreams that are familiar only to the speaker, creator, originator, and LO. The reader may get confused, but I think you can figure out.
The poem was sent to LO first, right before I “cut the tie” in person (breaking up with anyone in email or text is cruel), one day before my actual birthday — all my life I chose dates very carefully for small or big meaningful events, because their symbolical significance. I never understood why I was always fussy on this, superstitious?
Anyway, feel free to edit!
Snow hi,
The poem is beautiful, and Sammy added the right corrections, but the meaning stays the same. Congratulations.
Now, the nitty gritty is, are you going ahead for the killing of the phantom? I see some hesitation here… since you say: “… it expresses an unwillingness to bury even a phantom – a part of one Self.” Also you say : “ But I’m so unwilling to END/Bury anything…”
Are you ready for it or are you only preparing yourself for it?
Again you mentioned:
“If a closure with a realistic LO is futile, then an internal closure with a phantom of LO is feasible, if one wish to kill a part of oneself, isn’t it?”
Yay Snow, you’re a difficult lady… ha!
I would say, if your phantom was created by you, ( wasn’t innate) then yes, you can more or less “attempt “ to kill it. I say “attempt “ ( like an assassination attempt) because these emotions have a way to survive , have a life of their own, sometimes, like a hydra…
But if one succeeds on the “ killing “ of both LO attachment and the phantom, then our innate creative gifts/talents will flow free as now the old us is buried along with them both, and the new us is re born, the innate , inward person is being renewed; things are truer, they always existed within you! You’re the creation you’re always meant to be from the very start; old things has passed away. All things become new! One would look at the world with a new set of lenses! One has become reconciled to the “inner you”, to your now free mind; one becomes whole again as one were meant to be from the very start of life! It was others that stunted all that we were meant to be when we first saw the light. One was restricted by one’s own emotions and afflictions ; The gifts/talents were always there, buried in the subconscious , but once set free of all past emotions they’ll come out shining as never before!
Limerence may be the muse of inspiration for many limerents, but this is not true of all limerents nor of non limerents. There are many children with great talents/gifts/ creativity , and had not the experience of limerence. For we were fearfully and wonderfully made from the beginning of time. It is that essence we are trying to regain! That’s why we are not supposed to be “yoked” to someone else for inspiration. It’s within ourselves!!!
I feel more creative when at peace with my mind, free of limerence; limerence is too much encompassing, too much time and energy wasted in ruminations and too debilitating, for any creativity . We have the example of the era of Europe’s period of Renascence , the countries which were in turmoil with wars, like Greece and others , did not participate in the Renascence, there was no peace of mind for them, were too busy with surviving. So is with limerence for some limerents, too busy developing tactics on how to approach the LO, to the point some limerents cannot produce at work or have to quit working. Each limerent is different …
Like Socrates said: Know Thyself.
Not an easy task…
We trying!
Have a nice rest. Peace to you. Hugs
Nisor,
Thank you for reading my post and respond with thorough thoughts.
“The poem is beautiful, and Sammy added the right corrections, but the meaning stays the same. Congratulations.”
I did not KILL anyone, just separated the Phantom with LO, since they are not the same entity. As you pointed out, I projected my aged phantom to every LO.
“Now, the nitty gritty is, are you going ahead for the killing of the phantom?”
NO, I’m NOT going to KILL the phantom who has subconsciously accompanied me since the troubled childhood and brought me a hope in all dire situations! How could one kill one’s “saver” phantom, like your personal god, when one feels a bit safer or maturer? That would be a huge ingratitude.
“Are you ready for it or are you only preparing yourself for it?”
I am preparing NOT to kill but live with all — the phantom, LO, and my lingering limerence in loving compassion. You and I are in two camps of Dr.L’s blog (turning off limerence or not), I’m on Pro side, because my mental shield allows me to cultivate acceptance, compassion and equalibrium for limerence, while striving to retain limerence’s inspirational, sparkling force to create and color a realistic “living art” in my small life.
“If a closure with a realistic LO is futile, then an internal closure with a phantom of LO is feasible, if one wish to kill a part of oneself, isn’t it?”
Yay Snow, you’re a difficult lady… ha!”
It maybe be feasible. But I WILL NOT DO IT! It has become a core of my own existence with or without a LO. I just did not realize it and projected it to every LO I encountered. Now, coming to and participating in LwL has opened up my inner 👁️ and finally, clearly see the Phantom healing and hope-retaining power. From another angle, aren’t we also a phantom to each other here in LwL? We “soundlessly”, formlessly talk here and listen to, while my phantom dialogues with me in my head and “provides” me answers, right or wrong, when I need it.
“I would say, if your phantom was created by you, ( wasn’t innate) then yes, you can more or less “attempt “ to kill it. I say “attempt “ ( like an assassination attempt) because these emotions have a way to survive , have a life of their own, sometimes, like a hydra…”
You’re right that the Phantom was not born innately with me, but created and shaped through all my hardships over years. Now, if he has less “use”, then I should trash him like an old toy — a safety blanket? Please allow me to ask a question, why the word “killing” or “assassination” appears so many times in a Christian? Didn’t your Jesus Christ bear all “sins” of humanity through his cross? Full blown Buddhists do not kill, literally not even a cockroach in their walking path. I’m only strongly leaning on Buddhism, not an official buddhist.
“But if one succeeds on the “ killing “ of both LO attachment and the phantom, then our innate creative gifts/talents will flow free as now the old us is buried along with them both, and the new us is re born, the innate , inward person is being renewed; things are truer, they always existed within you! “
Again, please do not use the word “killing” with me, which makes me angry. Can we just let whatever is supposed to die die naturally? Everything is impermanent, even if you want to hold onto them, like love, they will die or change colors over time or in an eye blink.
Our innate creative gifts? We’re born a sling (this word?) blank piece of paper, nothing on it to flow out. Genes of gifts/talents need to be cultivated through learnings and trainings and sweat. What are truer always existing within me? Nothingness at birth and then the trauma experiences? I do not believe pre or after life, but I might have inherited some of my mother’s trauma or limerence genes, she’s a Narc limerent, a worst combination.
“You’re the creation you’re always meant to be from the very start; old things has passed away. All things become new! One would look at the world with a new set of lenses!”
I cherish my progressing lenses, neither too old nor brand new… Any wisdom comes from truly lived experiences, why “trash” valuable mental and spiritual “souvenir”?
“One has become reconciled to the “inner you”, to your now free mind; one becomes whole again as one were meant to be from the very start of life!“
As Sartre points out that a total free mind is very scary, there is huge responsibility comes with it, particularly for one who does not have any external god. But Sartre believes each day is new, and we are born everyday and renew us everyday, as if yesterday never happened existed. I’m not his follower on this point. One can’t wipe out yesterday and what’s already existed in one’s Unconscious, based on Jung’s concept. Our dreams proves the power of the Unconscious. Look what your dream did to your limerence?
“It was others that stunted all that we were meant to be when we first saw the light. “
Hmm… “others” are to be blamed? That’s a core difference between the West and East traditions….. The result is, based on my observation, a larger portion of Westerners suffer more in life (internally) in general than most of Easterners, love and limerence included, despite they appear much materialistically wealthier on surface. Insatiable desires for instant gratifications of all kinds here is unbelievable. Yet when they have obtained some of them, they’re still unhappy and discontent.
“One was restricted by one’s own emotions and afflictions”
True. This is also an Eastern idea. So one needs to work to tame one’s internal demons, not just blame and haunt external scapegoat demons.
“The gifts/talents were always there, buried in the subconscious , but once set free of all past emotions they’ll come out shining as never before!”
Gifts/talents (a foundation of a building) would remain “nothing”, if not cultivated into art forms, I meant living art, not just those high arts in cultures.
“Limerence may be the muse of inspiration for many limerents, but this is not true of all limerents nor of non limerents.”
Yes, limerence served as a muse for DrL, Sammy, me, and some others here. But your statement is very true!
“For we were fearfully and wonderfully made from the beginning of time. It is that essence we are trying to regain! “
Trying to “regain” the state of “fearful”?
“That’s why we are not supposed to be “yoked” to someone else for inspiration. It’s within ourselves!!!”
Well, I disagree with you here. All great artists of various kind has had some kind of form of muse — mostly a beloved person, who has inspired that innate gifts and talents. Then artists use the inspiration to craft their Masterpieces. If without limerence, as Sammy points out, there would be just mediocre art works in this world. Remember DrL got his Ph.D to impress his LO.
In Imho’s posted song, that woman has “slept” for a thousand year — perhaps a sleeping beauty, until a pair of magnetic, piercing eyes waked her up. The problem is that speaker doesn’t know what to do with her awakened freedom on her own, but madly clinging on LO to continue providing surviving “food” for her, that’s just maddening! Even as a limerent, I’d run away from her!
“I feel more creative when at peace with my mind, free of limerence; limerence is too much encompassing, too much time and energy wasted in ruminations and too debilitating, for any creativity .”
Every limerent is in limerence in his/her own unique ways… some of which are just magnificent throughout history! Just look at Da da Vinci!
“We have the example of the era of Europe’s period of Renascence , the countries which were in turmoil with wars, like Greece and others , did not participate in the Renascence, there was no peace of mind for them, were too busy with surviving.”
Peaceful Switzerland only created cuckoo clocks.
“So is with limerence for some limerents, too busy developing tactics on how to approach the LO, to the point some limerents cannot produce at work or have to quit working. Each limerent is different …”
That’s my point. Not all limerents are paralleled by limerence, especially after they’ve learned about this largely unknown phenomenon. With the knowledge, awareness, and skills to manage, your aforementioned limerents would not suffer that much. I feel deeply sorry for them, since I never fully went in that deep… maybe I’m just a selfish, heartless limerent longing for a never-existed, ideal parent.
“Like Socrates said: Know Thyself.”
This is the biggest gain after coming to LwL, I’ve learned soooooo much more about myself and my past experiences of all kinds…. I’m grateful.
Nisor, I’m willing to consciously WALK into another Limerence if I can, and I now believe that I can rein it without suffering my previous limerence pains out of ignorance. I’m more hopeful with LwL caring “phantoms” standing nearby.
Hugs!
Typo: “Not all limerents are paralyzed by limerence”.
Change: “I’m willing to consciously WALK into another limerence-like Love if I can….”
Hi Snow,
Sorry you got upset with the word (you know which), it was intended in a raw, figurative sense. I guess I’m hung up on Oscar Wilde’s quote, of Everyman killing what they love most…
I myself don’t feel good swatting a fly. I m just referring to emotions. ( There’s a song titled: Killing me softly , with your song, very sweet ).
I sometimes feel like a murderer, I did away (k#%%^*d) the love of my life for lack of patience, understanding, compassion, you name it, it’s a grief, sorrow I carry as if someone has died. That’s why I say, one never knows when these emotions will show up in the future to haunt one’s mind and disturb one’s heart. In a dream? Yes, mine was “delivered “ in a dream!
If I were young again and single, you bet yah I would give limerence- love a chance to enter my life again, with the experience gained with limerence, surely it would be easier to handle any inconvenience… ? I’m not so sure, life is so full of unknowns. One cannot predict anything. But any experience counts, it is in one’s favor . It’s got to be better this time around!
Have a good day, hugs
Nisor,
I’m no longer upset now, just profoundly sad, although I’m waiting to receive an old limerent-friend in a few minutes, to whom, I was his first crush, LO, when he was 17 (I 23). I liked the innocent boy but no glimmer. His parents told me that he had gone “no eating and sleeping” for days after first met me. After my divorce, he tried to date me in long distance, but I still had no glimmer. For years, he has managed to keep in loose touch with me and always visited me when he was in town on business trip. He’s an introvert, never expressed his emotions directly to me, by which I was always touched.
If the word “k*” is used once in a song or poem figuratively, that’s okay. But if it is used repeatedly in an ADVICE, even for abstract/intangible matters like emotions, then its sound gets amplified in my head. It felt like someone shouting at me with a reiteration of, “K* this, K*that….” You remember that last October I got upset about Sammy chant-like passages? – that’s how my kindergarten teachers criticized me in front of a group of kids — triggered one of my traumas. Ever since I’m terrible with cheer-leading kind of “affirmation” talks…
“one never knows when these emotions will show up in the future to haunt one’s mind and disturb one’s heart. In a dream?”
“I think, therefore I am”. I feel, therefore I am! Colorful emotions are our internal assets, which makes us feel uniquely alive; they come and go anyway stored in our Unconscious. I do not want to repress them down; every time I did, they erupted like a volcano later. I’d strive to live with negative ones, anger and sadness, in equilibrium and strengthen positive ones, like compassion and love, even unrequited.
“life is so full of unknowns. One cannot predict anything. “
That’s an exciting and adventurous part of human life! As Alexander Pope says, “If I know what’s going to happen tomorrow, I’ll hang myself today.”
“But any experience counts, it is in one’s favor . It’s got to be better this time around!”
Yes, experiences of particular adversary natures bring us wisdom. I’m positive that if I’m lucky enough to glimmer at an available LO again, my handling of a limerence-love would be much maturer.
Many hugs! 🫂
“the unforgiving sky” means that LO’s misfortune?
Unforgiving may also mean, harsh, hostile, implacable, not showing mercy, grim, inexorable etc.
I know. A word to be avoided in poetry.
@Nisor.
Well done, Nisor! I really like the sound of “implacable”. That probably was the word my mind was searching for all along… 😜
I would not associate “implacable sky” with a “punishing” Karma….
Imho,
LOL.
Mila,
I actually like dark chocolate. It’s one of the few “healthy” foods I enjoy. I can do up to about 90%. Much beyond that, it’s too bitter.
Marcia,
I‘ve got a 92% that tastes really good! I found that there is a big difference between brands.
Mila,
What brand do you like that is 92%?
I do like testing people. Askng them to taste the 90%, and if they grimace as they eat it, I say, “You can’t HANDLE dark chocolate!” 🙂
Marcia,
haha, selection of the weak!
I like the chocolate of Vivani, it’s a German organic brand, available in Europe but not sure where you are based.
I don’t recommend the 90%of Lindt, it tastes vile.
Mila,
“I don’t recommend the 90%of Lindt, it tastes vile”
I agree. It’s awful.
And I’ve tried the Lily’s dark chocolate chips that are sweetened with Keto sweeteners like Stevia. It’s a lower percentage of dark chocolate so I thought it would taste sweeter, but it has a weird taste. (Although I don’t dislike Stevia in, for example, iced tea. But in chocolate, it tastes weird.)
Just learned a new word! Much better than “unforgiving”.
Good morning beautiful limerents!
It’s first of February, the month the west chose to think and demonstrate love. Though love is in the air every where, every day… we make an extra effort to show our loved ones that we care for them on February 14, San Valentine’s Day. Flowers and chocolates are the gifts of preference, also perfumes or a good book of poetry, a stuffed Teddy bear, a date for dinner, or even red lingerie, a Hallmarks Card, etc, etc.
It’s ok to present SOs with these little demonstrations of love; the question of the day is: what about LOs? What would you give your LO? A special enamored glance? A beautiful wide open smile, with glowing eyes? A love card with a poem on it? What do you do , that day, when everyone is exchanging 🎁 gifts and your LO is a “forbidden “ person, to whom you cannot demonstrate your feelings? How sad! I would like to grab my LO and give him a long big kiss! Only if I could…
I ll bet you’re thinking of something to do, are you?
I think a stuffed Teddy bear is a harmless gift for LO, she/he can keep as a memento. How daring can you get? It depends on the relationship you have with the LO.
Happy
Month of February, Cheers to Love. ❤️
Nisor,
“What would you give your LO? ”
A big, fat wave goodbye! It’s the perfect, universal gift for almost all LOs. 🙂
Haha Marcia, you’re my kind of girl! Yeah, a fat wave goodbye!!!
Actually, it is US who have to say NO to ourselves pursuing LOs, because most of them don’t even know what’s happening inside of us. It’s all mental… how sick can we be? Lovesick, that is…. Its all soooooo ridiculous!!! We need a whack on the head to wake us up. That will be a nice gift to give oneself. Called “a wake up gift”. Do me a favor and wake me up!
.
In the East, Dragon will soar beginning on Feb. 10th this year…. HE’s hatching eggs now, perhaps?
Not sure about Phoenix…
Nisor,
“Haha Marcia, you’re my kind of girl! Yeah, a fat wave goodbye!!!”
Lol.
“Actually, it is US who have to say NO to ourselves pursuing LOs, because most of them don’t even know what’s happening inside of us.”
Yes, I agree. Although mine was aware of my feelings to some extent.
“That will be a nice gift to give oneself. Called “a wake up gift”. Do me a favor and wake me up!”
Yes.
One of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesn’t matter what you do. Call the LO. Don’t call. Text. Don’t text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or don’t. None of it matters and it won’t change anything.
Hi Nisor, maybe Dr L was going to pose this Valentine question on his next Blog and you stole his thunder, ha ha ( unlikely 😂)
Love Marcia’s on point reply!
I don’t really like Valentines as a one day to show affection. I think of lots of things to gift LO, few will come to pass.
To answer your question I personally think a teddy bear is a too romantic & bit cliche/generic IMHO. Maybe I’m too old for that kinda thing too !
As Snow says, Chinese new year is a few days earlier and maybe we focus on the year of the Dragon. I googled it. a random website says :-
“2024 is forecasted to bring about opportunities, changes, and challenges. If you’re seeking a shift in your current lives, this year might offer a favorable chance.”
Maybe we embrace the year of the Dragon !
@Marcia.
“One of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesn’t matter what you do. Call the LO. Don’t call. Text. Don’t text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or don’t. None of it matters and it won’t change anything.”
So what’s the bottom line, in your honest opinion? In most cases, the limerent is just … attracted to the wrong person? 😉
Nisor,
As an xLO many times over, I affirm your message to limerents here, including myself, that a lot of time, LOs have little ideas what’s going on in their limerents’ head and do not care either. Good LOs would actually firmly sever limerents wishful dreams, Narc LOs would play a sport on their limerents’ mind. As a limerent, I experienced both kinds.
I was LO who never gave out any mixed signals, and always managed to let the other side know quickly that there was ABSOLUTEly no chance. Personally, without that Glimmer, nothing would work no matter which side tries. I tried to cultivate that Glimmer for quite “qualified” limerents, but it still would not work.
In my COO, it is considered that “Predestined Affinity” — the Chemistry in the West, is missing. Neither side is right or wrong.
Marcia, Sammy
“One of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesn’t matter what you do. Call the LO. Don’t call. Text. Don’t text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or don’t. None of it matters and it won’t change anything.”
It is such a truth, that I, as a xLO, have forgotten for a while. For self-controlled limerents, good LO’s heart could be touched but may remain only as a (good) friend of the said limerents (like one I received last evening and some others); for clingy or stalking limerents, even good LOs’ heart could feel contemptuous, although they may not show it for the sake of politeness or civility. If we have self-esteem and self-respect, then let’s remember this brutal Truth.
It is true that most limerents are attracted to a “wrong” LO, due to some subconscious, biological causes. It is “wrong” not only because of barriers, but also the absence of that FATE — predestined affinity, which one can’t obtain even if one could fetch the Moon for LO! In my OCC, many have truly accepted with peace/contentment the concept of Fate in romantic union, so they don’t suffer much of limerence pains. I’ve witnessed this again and again among my COO classmates and friends.
The worse is that even if there is predestined affinity — both sides glimmered at each other, the union might still be broken due to existing incompatibility (personally I believe it can be cultivated over time if both sides wish to grow together and strengthen mutual love) or boredom once the obsessed desire is obtained. (I’m talking about “ideal” scenarios without other barriers)
Imho,
“I don’t really like Valentines as a one day to show affection. I think of lots of things to gift LO, few will come to pass.”
To show affection or celebrate Eros within us in just one a year is somewhat bewildering to Easterners, who usually or habitually show their love affection through concrete actions and deeds all year around. There is a mourning day for all deceased, a day for all star-crossed lovers who suffer an eternal separation, but for alive and active lovers.
Every coin has two sides: Year of Dragon is also seen and awed in the East as “treacherous”. Dragon’s beyond-human power or possible lucks HE brings could go any directions, but will be amplified hundreds of times more powerful. It’s either disasters or glories in all aspects of life. So everyone is highly vigilant during 365 days of “Dragon’s spirit-rein.”
Google tends to emphasize only positivities, but one could see the duality of Dragon powers —
“The dragons of East Asian legend have sweeping powers. They breathe clouds, move the seasons, and control the waters of rivers, lakes, and seas. They are linked with yang, the masculine principle of heat, light, and action, and opposed to yin, the feminine principle of coolness, darkness, and repose.”
In the Bible, dragons represent rebellious spiritual beings and the violent humans and empires in league with them. Jesus ultimately overcomes the dragon with a courageous act of generous love, and he invites his followers to do the same.
I would be watchful of the elements of both the East and the West during Dragon’s soaring….
For the Valentine’s Day, I’d celebrate my own unrequited “LOVE” (not the limerence’s pining or whining), for LO or the Phantom of LO, who does NOT need to know or care. I think It shows a self-respectful validation for one’s own emotions, “right or wrong”, wise or foolish… they’re a part of our identity.
I think, I feel, therefore I am!
Imlo,
Typo: “NOT for alive and active lovers”
Nisor,
“Qualified” limerents means having compatibilities with realistic LO. For some people, this romantic relationship could possibly work. For me personally, it can NOT, due to missing of Glimmer — the Fate.
Sammy,
“So what’s the bottom line, in your honest opinion? In most cases, the limerent is just … attracted to the wrong person? 😉”
Yes. In a nutshell.
Now, I ‘m writing this post from a single person’s perspective. (I’m not really sure and don’t totally understand what married limerents want from their LOs. It seems to keep their SOs and life as it is but dabble in some way in their LOs, but not really an affair ? And I’ve always wondered if that’s what my LO wanted from me. I had no interest in that. I didn’t want an appetizer. I wanted the full meal. Or as much of the meal as you can get with a married person. 🙂 )
But for the single limerent who is out and about and looking for a potential partner (even if they aren’t fully aware of it) … yes, it’s attraction to the wrong person. Most people find out someone is unavailable and/or not interested and move on. They don’t dig their heels in and become fixated on them. To become limerent is, quite frankly, an odd response.
Marcia,
“ And I’ve always wondered if that’s what my LO wanted from me. I had no interest in that. I didn’t want an appetizer. I wanted the full meal. Or as much of the meal as you can get with a married person. ”
No appetizer for me, either, which would induce a full blown “hungry ghost” on the Limerence Wheel! That’s the major reason which prevented me from having a very possible PA with LO, when the chances were presented (you asked me once, Why). I intuitively knew it would hurt my heart more than just my illogical longing… Also, one can’t miss too much of something that one does not know at all, right?
PA almost happened in my dream this dawn…. it was terrible and shocked me… I considered it as a nightmare and feel lucky now that it was just a dream, not an objective “reality”… (I’m clearly aware of differences between subjective and objective REAL or UNREAL). My Unconscious is still somehow helping me on an emotional and psychological level… 😵💫
“Most people find out someone is unavailable and/or not interested and move on. They don’t dig their heels in and become fixated on them. To become limerent is, quite frankly, an odd response.”
IT’s NOT our conscious choice to fall in limerence, a lot of us has cptsd or other attachment issues (mostly unaware) from childhood or youth. Others with a happy childhood or SOs, for some “mysterious” or instinctual reasons, are also Oddly attracted to “wrong” LOs, whether they are available or unavailable. All my previous LOs were available (unmarried), but still “wrong” for me; my current one was dominantly for a makeup “surrogate parenting”.
I still think that limerents are already one before they bump into their first LO, only that they don’t know. I also think that limerents remain limerents even with full awareness and obtained insights. They probably would not FALL into limerence again. Hopefully, Glimmer will strike again, at a right LO.
“I’m not really sure and don’t totally understand what married limerents want from their LOs.”
I just wanted her attention. For what reason I am not sure. She just captivated my attention.
@Marcia.
“But for the single limerent who is out and about and looking for a potential partner (even if they aren’t fully aware of it) … yes, it’s attraction to the wrong person. Most people find out someone is unavailable and/or not interested and move on. They don’t dig their heels in and become fixated on them. To become limerent is, quite frankly, an odd response.”
I understand what you mean. 😛
@Adam
“I just wanted her attention. For what reason I am not sure. She just captivated my attention.”
I get what you’re saying. Attention from LO feels very rewarding, both for singles and marrieds, and people have a hard time weaning themselves off that attention, even if they feel a bit uneasy about liking that attention so much. 🤔
Snowphoenix,
“No appetizer for me, either, ”
The full meal for me was a PA. And because I had such strong feelings for him, I’m sure there would have been a big emotional component to the PA.
An appetizer is some kind of flirty friendship or some kind of flirtatious attention. No, thanks.
“IT’s NOT our conscious choice to fall in limerence, ”
The limerent chooses how they act on the limerence. I knew my LO was married and I bulldozed right toward him.
Most people would have thought: This guy is married. It’s a waste of time and there are plenty of other people out there. Instead of getting such hideous tunnel vision that he was the only guy on the planet.
Marcia,
“The full meal for me was a PA. And because I had such strong feelings for him, I’m sure there would have been a big emotional component to the PA.”
I’m sure you have a big emotional component to the PA on your side, not sure about LO’s side, which is what I would HATE — feeling to be taken advantage of, not as a LO, but a SexO.
A teasing appetizer for me would be PA only, without a full meal — regular EA (1st) + PA (2nd), or EA only if the 2nd course is unavailable. I tried the appetizer without the full meal before, so boring; I named it as SE.
“The limerent chooses how they act on the limerence. I knew my LO was married and I bulldozed right toward him.”
Well, I semi-consciously chose my only unavailable LO, was BECAUSE he WAS married and looked immune, so I would be SAFE from a possible PA (remember my still unbroken oath to myself? — not deal with any taken men!). I didn’t know back then that I was chasing after a surrogate parent again — “EA”, which tells how serious my cptsd need was, so badly triggered immediately by Father’s death.
I only realized my subconscious, biological desire (born with Glimmer), AFTER seeing LO’s glimmering at his pet LO and knowing their secret rendezvous. Later when offered with the appetizer, PA, I still refused it, because there was no EA as a part of the full meal, plus I would have to break my own oath to become a 2nd side- chick! Nope, thanks! I would not get on the Wheel of PA Hungry Ghosts. EA is so much more fulfilling!
Snowphoenix,
“EA is so much more fulfilling!”
To me, that’s a friendship. I can get that for a platonic relationship. Limerence has a romantic/sexual component to it. Meaning: it involves sex.
I’m not interested in being just a close friend. I would think that would be even more tortuous than what I already had from him.
To quote James Brown, “Give it up or turn it loose!” 🙂
If I wanted a Friend, I’d get another Cat..
😝
MJ,
“If I wanted a Friend, I’d get another Cat..”
Exactly. And my LO was such a tease. I don’t like teases. Eventually, you have to deliver. 🙂
Marcia,
“EA is so much more fulfilling!”
To me, that’s a friendship. I can get that for a platonic relationship.”
Well, for me, running away from carefree, meaningless or unsafe PA pursuing was a “norm” of my life since 12, but getting a substantial, lasting friendship was always a fate-related challenge. So I always valued meaningful EA — fulfills my mind, much more than just PA — my cousin’s word, “Isn’t it just a piece of steak with ribs?” (When emotions are uninvolved)
Then a platonic friendship with a LO is more precious than with anyone else, because of that romance component, fulfilled or not — an unrequited love amplified. Many of us here, particularly those with SO, know that feeling. If two courses of a full meal are limited, then take one. One just can’t have it all!
“Limerence has a romantic/sexual component to it. Meaning: it involves sex.”
Glimmer has a romantic/sexual component to it; but rare limerence could be for a “missing” parent, sibling, spiritual figure, an idol, a child, etc. I agree that in most of cases, it seems to be pair-bonding tightly related, conscious or unconscious.
People who fall into Limerence usually have some unconscious needs/wants (even if they have a happy SO); mine at the time was for a surrogate parent to make up for my permanent loss of Father, LO’s unavailable status and personality seemed to suit the role, so I started “dialogue”. From the beginning up to 4 years, I was quite content. PA was not my conscious aim (although might be on a subconscious level). It seems that my case is very hard to be understood here….
“I’m not interested in being just a close friend. I would think that would be even more tortuous than what I already had from him.”
I would agree with you here, because our biological needs paired with our emotional wants can’t be fulfilled, double folds — it hurts! My limerence pain kicked in precisely when my instinctual desire for LO was fully realized by my jealousy for LO’s pet LO.
Unrequited Love, I imagine, would be able to be LO’s close friends without feeling much hurt, but just enjoying platonic friendship, like my limerent friend who visited me 2 days ago. I’m taking steps walking towards that direction with my LO, but often 3 steps forward and then 2 step backwards…
Snow,
“If two courses of a full meal are limited, then take one. One just can’t have it all!”
Nah. I’d rather go hungry. 🙂 I’m not interested in part of the meal. I can get those parts from other people.
At the time I met my LO, I had a platonic best friend. My LO’s job is to bring the sexy! 🙂
All this meal talk is making quite peckish !
I will refrain from delving into the snack cupboard.
Imho,
Haha, same here! Just wanted to ask what’s wrong with a good steak…
Keeping up with the sweets? I‘m quite good💪🏻but don’t know for how long. I use the dark chocolate as recommended by you, but unfortunately my gut is on strike at the moment with all the change and dark chocolate isn’t supposed to be good for that.
Sorry, completely off-topic, I know. But it does distract me.
Mila,
I think my cousin meant that a steak does not have a soul to communicate with a human mind and reciprocate even a non-limerent’s emotional needs/cravings.
Marcia,
I forgot to mention last night another Highly seductive, no-sex related thing one could be in limerence with — LONGING itself in Amanda McCracken’s TED talk. It’s “the desire/craving” ITSELF, a part of oneself, that one could be in limerence with, for whatever reasons.
In my case, the constant longing to be picked up, probably sustained my existence and tolerance in that dreadful weekcare for two years, and later became a part of my system, familiar, comfortable, and hopeful — soon or later, Dad did come to pick me up, longing was paid off.
But any LO is not a real father!
As for myself, I find LO’s hugs to be quite satisfying. Of course, I have an SO at home….
Snow,
“But any LO is not a real father!”
Very true. Given the deprivation you experienced as a baby, it makes perfect sense you prioritze an emotional connection.
When I met my LO, as I wrote, I had a BFF. I also had another really close friend. So I felt pretty supported emotionally. It’s not that I didn’t want an emotional connection with my LO (I did). But I prioritized the romantic/sexual component. That’s what I lacked in my life.
Serial Limerent,
“As for myself, I find LO’s hugs to be quite satisfying. ”
That would start to feel like being in high school. Are we ever gonig to do any more than this? 🙂
Sammy,
Just woke up with a forgotten dream, but had a new words popped up for the poem, yet it’s about her —
*****
Under the Gray, Misty Sky —
I see the door at last closing
With an open window in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: “I knew her in longing…”
Beneath an implacable sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil is resisting
The gravedigger’s giant spoon.
The cross she carried she carried for her –
The phantom child(daughter?), gone too late!
2/4/24
****
Does it sound right, based on my LE script?
Both the Phantom parent/lover and child/lover need to be buried with unwillingness, but I don’t know how to manage both in one short verse?
There is an open window, though still foggy/misty outside… that’s the speaker’s view now…
Under the Gray, Misty Sky —
I see the door at last closing
With an open window in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: “I knew her in longing…”
Beneath an implacable sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil is resisting
The gravedigger’s giant spoon.
The cross she carried she carried for her –
The phantom child, gone so late….
2/4/24
A sigh 😔
Under the Gray, Misty Sky —
I see the door at last closing
With an open window in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: “I knew her in longing…”
Beneath an implacable sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil is resisting
The gravedigger’s giant spoon.
The cross she carried she carried for her –
The phantom child, grown so late….
2/4/24
Implacable is great!
I don’t know if I then would use the sky in the heading though, somehow gray and misty cannot keep up with implacable.
So “gray, misty sky” is less gloomier than implacable sky?
The original few lines came to mind one day after I took a long walk along a big river (1/25), which was covered almost entirely by very thick gray fog/misty, almost made the huge bridge over the river indivisible. It’s was so surreal and poetic that I felt I were in a dream, as I was walking….
Then, after getting home, I took a nap, had a dream in which I saw LO’s big eyes tearing and then full of tears due, twice in a 2 hour catnip… which made me very sad afterwards….
So through such a gray, foggy sky, I see…
Typo: “the bridge over the river invisible. “
Well, gray and misty is a mere optical and sensual description while implacable is a character or something ascribed to humans or living beings (sorry for my English)
Mila,
“Implacable sky” is suggested by Sammy, I did not even know the word until Nisor brought it in to substitute for “Unforgiving Sky”. I still don’t fully know how to use the word.
Originally, I used the optical vision, since I eyewitnessed the incredible view, I was seized in it. I like to use specific, visual, or sensual words in verse.
Maybe I should say, “Through the Gray, Foggy Sky/Bridge”… there is a picture of the misty scene attached to this poem.
My English is still limited, thanks for your feedback…
Snowphoenix,
My English is surely more limited than yours, I just go with gut feeling😅and I felt that mentioning the sky twice in an unconnected way diminished each mentioning somehow (but you see, I cannot describe properly what I mean).
But great atmosphere anyway.
Wow the first time I wake up to LwL wondering what the hell did I drunk post last night and than I see it’s not that bad. I do love her.
Would I love to turn it off right now? Even the last few vestiges of it now? YES!!! Anything I can count as personal growth from this experience was at the price of someone else. My wife, my boys or her. Everyone else paid the price for my actions and behavior. Even if I have found my faith again, it’s still a price someone else paid. No I would much rather know WHY I love someone, like my wife, than the alcoholic euphoria of limerence. Nothing good comes from limerence, or at least mine, when in 23 years you look at your wife and ask if we should separate. No, nothing good came of it.
No, I would not turn off my limerence. After learning a lot about it and doing some other readings from Eastern traditions, I feel that my limerence has helped me connect with my spiritual side. I feel as if I can comfortably enjoy the feelings of closeness with my LO on a spiritual rather than physical level. I feel as though it has enhanced my physical life, my enjoyment of life with my SO and family, helped reduce stress.
On a slightly different but related note I see that limerence is gaining mainstream attention. See this recent article in the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/27/style/limerence-addiction-love-crush.html
At the end of the article a woman describes her techniques for getting rid of limerence, and my thoughts were how sad that must be. I can’t imagine focusing on only ways to get rid of the limerence, instead of accepting it as the phenomenon that it is and allowing it to exist in a separate space from your everyday physical life.
@PS & Coffeehouse.
I read the NYT article you link to, and actually I really liked it. I think it’s really good. The tone is measured, informed, compassionate. I think the journalist did a really good job of doing what a journalist is meant to do.
If I were to comment on the article, I would say that the “replaying” and “rehearsing” limerents-in-distress do mostly seems to be unconscious rather than conscious? So I don’t think (first-time) limerents are fully aware they’re setting themselves up for a disappointment later on, if things don’t go exactly to plan.
Also, I’d say that “slipping into reverie” is fine if one knows LO’s feelings, and a relationship is mutually desired, and all other moral boxes are checked off, etc. The situation I worry about is when people slip into reverie over an LO, but they don’t know whether this LO is into them, or whether this LO truly wants a relationship. (Assuming the limerent is really keen on a relationship happening).
Then the whole business can get very awkward very fast.
I’d say “confirm feelings are mutual before going overboard with reveries”. But that’s not limerence – that’s something akin to conventional dating. 🤔😜
I agree with Snowphoenix who posts these quotations from Proust:
“Desire makes everything blossom; possession makes everything wither and fade.” – Proust
“There must be something inaccessible in what we love, something to pursue; we love only what we do not possess…” — Proust
Why can’t we accept limerence as something we will never posses, and whose point is not to be possessed? Instead enjoy the feeling/phenomenon of love/desire for closeness without the need to possess it further?
William Blake wrote in his Proverbs of Hell: that he would “Sooner strangle an infant in its cradle than nurse unacted desires.” I feel sorry for him. I’m fully enjoying nursing unacted desires with none of the desire to act on them!
You’re getting a hang of Eastern traditions (similar to Stoicism) — to accept what’s already out there and within us here with equilibrium.
What is resisted persists — it’s a law of physics, as well as psychology.
I resonate with your sentiments about Blake’s line.
Now our blog is on New York Times, I may be possibly exposed to LO, who reads it daily. I may even end up chatting with him here without knowing…. 🥴
I would turn it off. Others here have had more enjoyable LE experiences. Mine seems to be nothing more than chronic pain. It was maybe fun for 6 weeks out of the 100 I’ve been in it. Not a good ratio.
I would turn it off in a heartbeat. I have been genuinely amazed by tales of positive experiences because I thought they would be very much a rarity.
If you are both single and looking for love then maybe…. but I believe that fundamentally it is a distorted state of mind caused very often through adverse childhood experiences.
For me, the experience has caused the worst emotional pain of my life. I believe that it is incredibly dangerous too because our feelings and perceptions are temporarily distorted. It’s all fine until things start to turn sour. From reading various comments over the last couple of years, it seems that a lot of relationships have been damaged by a limerent partner. The distorted mind-set means that we sometimes act selfishly, it seems.
Maybe that’s a bit like love itself, but limerence is obsessive and fraught with danger i.m.h.o.
I suppose I would turn mine off if I really wanted to. I should since I am on a different shift now and rarely see LO anyway. It’s nice to still think of her. The places I would see her. Remembering her nice outfits and when I thought we were just a conversation away from going out.
At least in my mind it felt like that. Too bad it wasn’t real and that’s when I get stuck. So I may not be in the really bad place I was, but there is always that hope, way in the back of my mind, something will actually happen.
@MJ,
When the mind is a doer “doing” imagining, feeling, thinking and remembering, they are REAL to the mind. Are mental activities considered a part of reality?
When the mind is witched to an observer, observing imagining, feelings, thinking, and remembering, we then consider them UNREAL… because they do not exist outside the mind.
I consider feelings thoughts, imaginations, reveries, etc. as real experiences for a human mind, and thus REAL — “I think, therefore I am.”
Without realistic facts, visual images, and five senses of us here in LwL, are our feelings, thoughts, imaginations, dreams… REAL or UNREAL? Can we just turn off our devices and shrug our heads: Ah, I’ve just encountered a bunch of “ghosts” who do not exist in my reality; therefore, my virtual interactions with them and the consequential thoughts and sentiments are UNREAL?
Typo: “when the mind is switched to an observer,”
Human mind sometimes does and observes at the same time, even during sleeps. In dreams, I sometimes had my eyes (I consider it as the Unconscious eye 👁️) hanging high in space, watching my actions, feeling, sensing and thinking . (I documented a lot of them) Are they REAL or UNREAL to the dreamer and the observer?
When I write down my dreams and post them here, what happens in the reader’s mind? It WAS cool to meet Nisor, Sammy, and DrL and vividly interacted with them in my dreams last week; I enjoyed the interactions while dreaming and the memories while sharing with you “ghosts” here, to “immortalize” them…. Now have they become Real or still Unreal??
If I ever meet them in person outside here during waking hours, then it would be another real experience… Both kinds, inside mind and outside mind, are REAL, in my opinion and experience.
@MJ,
When the mind is a doer “doing” imagining, feeling, thinking and remembering is REAL…
When the mind is witched to an observer, observing imagining, feelings, thinking, and remembering, we call them UNREAL… based on common definitions of “REAL” and “UNREAL”.
I consider feelings thoughts, imaginations, reveries, etc. as real experiences for a human mind — “I think, therefore I am.”
@Snow,
Perhaps that’s why some of my past ruminations of LO felt so real at times. Like when she left to go work next door, it felt like a real breakup. Like she wanted to leave me and nothing would stop her. I swear I never cried so hard. I’ve been deliriously sad ever since. So sad, that my heart has felt actual physical pain over her at times. That’s how intense my feelings got at one point. Crazy, stupid limerence.
Not so much like that nowadays. I still probably think of her way too much though, but I talk to a Priest about it. Therapy isn’t totally out of the question either. Didn’t have the best of luck finding someone last time so I’ve been dragging a$$.
@MJ,
Every coin has two sides, without darkness there would be NO light.
When I perceived a “ghosting” from LO in person for the first time (a previous one was online 1 year prior in 2018) on the commencent day, the triggered abandonment melonge (originated from my childhood—vaguely remembered Mother’s cold, comtempuous face) sent me into my worst panic attack before I took off the ceremonial gown; I was almost physically on my knees in an empty office. (My system always went banana in empty public rooms for ?? reasons). That’s when I picked up Stocism study for the entire summer of 2019 — I determined to find a mental shield to protect myself from any future unforeseeable, psychological pains.
Later, when the negative imagions hit in my head, I would go over all Stoic mantras again and again, trying to absorb their essences. I did not tell my therapist or anyone else about this unnamble obsession (24/7) — I knew my reactions towards LO were illogical and maddening but did not understand why and how.
Gradually, I can choose what fantasies to keep in my head to please or soothe my heart, and just passively watch negative ones coming and going, without resistance but an understanding and acceptance. It’s not that easy, there were many back-n-forth, emotional and psychological growth and backfalls.
It sounds you’re feeling a lot better now, I hope you get recovered soon! The acute awareness about our mind’s magical imagining power, both constructive and destructive, DO help heal our limerent brain.
I would not turn off limerence. I’ve had the fortune to learn about it at a pretty good stage where it never heavily disrupted my life, I think, and as such, I believe I will have a much better hold of it if it were to ever happen again.
I would absolutely get rid of it if I could. The initial stage is wonderous, that feeling of anticipation and euphoria, but it’s only ever ended in pain and hurt and tears. To know you will always care more than the other person is a horrible thing and not something I would wish on anyone.
As I elaborated in numerous tedious posts, at the moment I feel resentment for LO and the whole mess, which made me search for a blog post I vaguely remembered, and I found it.
Brilliant post from Dr. L, I recommend it to anyone who’s like me and gets angry at LO from time to time:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-things-go-sour/
I remember that time for me. It was actually the transition I needed to get to acceptance. I guess you could compare it to the five stages of grief. Mine were just in a different order. Being angry at her for just being the person she was; nice, kind, friendly helped me realize how bad my delusion was. It made me see myself for who I was being. Which of course then lead to acceptance of what I did and who I needed to be after this. To try and redeem myself to my wife. To let my sons accept what I did to their mother in their own way. Not try to redeem myself as forgiveness is not a guarantee from them.
I very seldom like expressing anger. It is one of my worst emotions and I try to avoid it at all cost. But it helped me with this. I spent some time angry at myself too. For being angry at her. But here I am at the end of the tunnel I think. Things seem to be settling into the norm again. I know it truly will never be the “same” again but maybe better with the “different” it now is.
Hi Adam,
part of my anger is anger at myself, too. And actually some part of me is conscious of the fact that he is just as lovable or annoying as he always has been, overall a kind and special person, it’s only me who swings from love to anger and back.
Still, at the moment it feels healthy to be a bit angry, and this part of myself I just described controls me so that I won’t vent my anger at him.
It’s like Dr L writes: „It can be helpful to take those feelings of anger and frustration and use them to realise that LO isn’t this hugely desirable person.“
That’s exactly what I’m doing at the moment.
Adam, I‘m so glad you feel you are at the end of the tunnel.
It gives us all hope! Well done, well done.
I have enjoyed reading through this ‘sour’ blog, it was a new one for me.
Thanks Mila.
Even without getting negative about him, doesn’t the sheer futility of the LE put you right off him? Neither of you is ever going to do anything about it. Its just so pointless that moving on is the only way.
LO can still be in your life (maybe, though you might not bother as much about that if you do move on from the romantic feelings)
Hi Bewitched
you describe exactly my desired state of mind. I know it’s all true -the futility, the lack of point- since months actually.
The thing is, knowing all this is one thing, but really getting it under your skin is another. Last meeting scratched at my skin, and I do my best to let it in.
As usual when I decided not to text anymore, he texted first, I reacted but not extremely encouraging, so its silence again. I guess he will text again some time.
I‘m really determined to put the texting on balance with the rest of our interactions, because that’s the point where it feels wrong, and that’s a not too complicated goal to achieve.
Thanks for the true sentences, I‘ll keep rereading them to internalize them finally!
Hey Mila,
Maybe just take a break from your phone, girl! Try a short texting detox and explain to him so you dont have to worry about his reaction or him being hurt. Or tell him that phone or app is on the blink (acting strangely).
His SO could read his texts sometime, she sounds like a force of nature. I am a little worried about her freaking out at him/you. Maybe use this as motivation for yourself to reduce text contact? (You can give him another excuse to manage his reaction).
The gradual easing off seems to be a good approach too, to lessen questioning of it from any quarter. All of this can go hand in hand with dialing back and removing him from brain. I am trying this too.
Hi Bewitched,
I surely have a phone addiction now, I‘m much too often here or on social media or even read books on my phone…
I just let it be because with limerence and sugar detox, I thought I‘ve got enough on my hands in terms of quitting…
But maybe it would help especially with limerence if I stopped using my phone so much, you are right.
I don’t think his SO would ever freak out, she‘s not the type. She‘s always holding herself together and doing the right thing. But I don’t know. There’s nothing to freak out about in our texts too other than they are so many. I don’t worry about her, to be honest.
I don’t want to make him too much aware of what’s happening. In the end he did nothing much wrong, it shouldn’t feel like I punish him for something or don’t want to be friends any more, I want to avoid questions. Much as I craved for one honest conversation in the past, now I want to avoid that. I‘ve the feeling if I would announce a phone detox now, he would ask if it’s got something to do with him. I‘m not such a good liar.
I think I managed ok yesterday, stopping texting effectively without being abrupt and not reacting on kissing Emoji… but it’s a bit of work to measure it just right so it doesn’t feel I‘m suddenly not available.
I’ve read the blog of “sour” several times, and found it’s most helpful in reducing and removing my resentments that came and went, depending on my physical conditions (tiredness, short sleeps, etc), which I think it’s normal for us limerents.
The three points DrL says in “Sour” I found strikingly effective to my mind personally:
1. “Giving in to resentment means allowing someone else’s behaviour to determine your mood.”
I can’t stand the idea and the fact that someone else could indirectly determine/control my moods and stages of mind, particularly even when they did not intentionally do it. We limerents unawarely give that power to both decent or Narc LOs. I would hate to be “controlled” by anyone else, nor they by me — I would not manipulate anyone into liking me more, what’s authenticity and enjoyment in that?! That’s why I did little “chasing” in all my former LEs, LOs all reciprocated either in EA or PA, except the latest one — a true limerence case, by Tennov’s definition.
2. “ resentment generally comes from a sense of entitlement.”
With 35% of narcissistic traits in me, I knew I sometimes semi-consciously felt entitled to certain matters, particularly considering in the past I was many more times more of a LO than a limerent. Then with a study of Stoicism and Buddhism, I have to pull myself down again and again, telling myself: others (their emotions, thoughts and behaviors) and the outside world are absolutely OUT of your control! LO or anyone else has rights to do or change whatever suit their needs or situations, not your limerence longing!
Then I try to remember asking more myself: Who do you think you are to deserve an unavailable LO’s exclusive affections (which would involve an emotionally “breakup” with his SO of 25 years), just because you have intense feelings for him? I even went further: If he were single, what could I offer in a romantic relationship with him? I know so little about this person; all I truly wanted was to be makeup-treated like an “orphan” child by an idealized surrogate parent. So heal your cptsd first!
3. “it is unreasonable to feel that your friends are obligated to you. If a friend lets you down, it’s disappointing for sure, but you’re not entitled to some sort of emotional compensation.”
If we could and often do accept this in terms of our friendship, then why we expect more unreasonably from LO, who is often not a solid friend or available to be a solid friend? (Mila, your case is an exception).
“Unrealistic expectations” is not only a root of limerence pains, but a root of many un-fulfillment and unhappiness in life. If one truly gives or makes best efforts without clinging on expected results, one would feel so much FREER or joyful just enjoying a journey towards a purposeful goal.
To say that I never had a thought of “payback” by Karma in the midst of resentments is dishonest and inauthentic. So when a misfortune did fall on LO, I could not help enlarge my eyes and release a deep sigh: Ah, that Karma…
Now, I have more compassion and sorrow for LO than myself. All the previous resentments have gone with wind…. Yesterday, I called LO to my office, returned his plant I was helping water during the winter break (he’s traveling in Europe), and gave him a small bottle of “White Jasmine” scented room-infuser refill, just wished to help him feel better, since he’s been so “disheartened”…. I have no expectation of any kind, since an irreversible, realistic end is approaching….
How sad indeed.
Sometimes sadness out of assured endings is easier but heavier than anxiety out of hopeful uncertainties.
I see your case still has a hope, all you need to figure out is how to dial down the anxiety, face it with a more accepting attitude. If I were you, I’d wait out without doing anything — in reacting to your LO’s attitude or behaviors. Friendship or a romantic connection is not something one can rush for, particularly if you think he’s in spectrum, and a social media might be more addictive than a chemical substance,
Uncertainty and sadness are a part of life as default. When I am seized by sadness nowadays, I no longer fight with it by distracting my mind with other activities, just to fully experience it…. Then strangely, it would go away on its own..
“I can’t stand the idea and the fact that someone else could indirectly determine/control my moods and stages of mind, particularly even when they did not intentionally do it.” To me, that doesn’t apply to LO’s – it applies to innocent spouses affected by a limerent’s actions.
I’m sure that limerence is difficult, but it’s worse for the victims of a limerent’s actions. But with therapy and hard work, it can get better. It just won’t get better if we keep talking about limerence as something that can’t be controlled. I have diabetes from birth, so not my fault. I still have to take actions to control it.
Getting back to the original question: “Would you turn off your limerence?”
The answer is “Yes” and I turned it off. It took years of analysis, introspection, and working with several therapists. When I started that journey, I didn’t know what limerence was. As time progressed, I learned a lot about myself.
One therapist labeled me co-dependent. Another therapist said that I wasn’t co-dependent. Co-dependence didn’t fit the dynamics of my relationship with LOs #2 and #4 but limerence did.
As a single person, limerence didn’t have the potential to wreak as much havoc in my life as it did as a married person. I had discovered limerence that the roots of my relationship and behavior patterns went back to my mother by the time I discovered limerence. I returned to the EAP counselor for another round to validate the concept of limerence and feel confident that I’d never have another LE.
I don’t think I’m any less of a romantic or passionate daydreamer than I ever was. But, I’m also a lot older now and I’d like to think that I’m a lot smarter. If I ever find myself back on the market, I’d have a much better idea of what I’d look for in a woman.
Well, that was mildly incoherent.
The phone rang as I was typing.
Sigh…
I completely related to your post, L.E. Not incoherent at all… or maybe I am just good at tracking incoherence. 😉
Anyway, yes, I have also ‘turned it off’. I give myself a pass for the first two limerent experiences because I didn’t know what limerence was until the tail end of my second experience. But when my limerent brain was reaching out for a third one, I said no, and fought it with my thinking/rational brain and it did work. Now I can look back and thank God that I didn’t leave my husband after all because that would have solved nothing. But the emotions and the intrusive thoughts are so strong and so hard to overcome. I learned it just takes time and space for it to pass — to get out of the ‘tunnel’ as I like to call it.
Hey all, sorry to hijack this post with something off topic but I’m really struggling. Like immensely. My limerance comes and goes in regards to its intensity. My trigger is always social media. Since we’re “friends” now (I disclosed after several years of torture- hallelujah and he wasn’t/is? unsure he wants to date anyone- yeah, probably just wanted to let me down easy), I never felt comfortable blocking, unfriending, unfollowing and basically doing what a self respecting person would do in my situation. I managed to remove myself from a couple of platforms but my rhetoric is that if I disappear completely it will show a strong (immature?) response and I don’t want to give my LO the satisfaction. Not sure if that makes sense to you all. It’s a power move, if it were.
Confession: I can’t help myself from occasionally posting baity type posts hoping to garner a response from LO. Anything at this point. So for example, a band we saw once, a song we both like, image from his favorite bakery in town and so on. It drives me insane that he sees them (he admitted once albeit jokingly that he likes to online stalk me on occasion) but lately it’s been crickets. So I keep trying and I’m the process losing my self respect and dignity. I have been really ocd-ing about it for weeks. The loop goes like this: he proposed a friendship, I accepted the scraps, I want attention and he isn’t playing along. This is not a person who is actively in my life, we don’t work together, we don’t live in the same area and there’s 5% chance we’ll ever run into each other in public. My pleas for attention through social media to which he is most likely unaware (or IS HE? Oh God, could he be?) have reached the point of embarrassment and I am asking you HOW to reverse or redeem myself so I don’t look insane and of course, keep feeling like I’ve just given away the last shred of my dignity. Advice?
@Anastasia.
Sorry to hear you’re struggling, Anastasia. I don’t really know what to say to you.
When you say your limerence comes and goes in regards to its intensity, what exactly are you referring to? Do you mean strong emotions and intrusive thoughts about this person? Like you can’t get your mind off of him? But sometimes the situation is easier to cope with than at other times?
Do you feel your moods are dependent on this man’s behaviour? E.g. do you sometimes feel really happy and sometimes feel really sad, and you think your feelings are all tied up with this man’s attitude toward you in some way, but you can’t really say how?
Do you feel that your brain treats this man as a drug almost? I.e. do you feel like you’re having a really intense response to him, and this response is biological? Like your whole body and mind is on high alert in relation to him, and you’re not really choosing to have this powerful response?
From your description, it sounds like he rejected you romantically, but the rejection was rather ambiguous. I.e. he didn’t say that he absolutely doesn’t like you, only that he’s not interested in dating. He COULD theoretically be playing games with you, or he COULD be trying to let you down gently. That makes the situation very tricky, as you’ll naturally want to cling to any shreds of hope.
Social media can present a lot of challenges if you’re experiencing addiction to a person, because you’ll get a lot of reminders of that person, and all those reminders might serve as an intermittent reward for your brain, making the infatuation harder to get over. 😉
I don’t think he’s playing games. He’s on the spectrum, I suspect, so that kind of emotional manipulation doesn’t seem to be the way he operates, especially in romantic situations. The man hasn’t had a proper relationship since Trump was first elected, whether it’s truly by choice, as he claims or again, Aspie tendencies getting in the way?
As per your question, my mood shifts are largely dependent on what I call triggers. He posts very little on social media as most middle men aged do not anyway but he admitted in the past to reading my Facebook posts and was being complimentary how thoughtful they were. I work with marginalized population so I write a lot about politics and such. Or I used to since in the past few months I’ve shifted to writing posts about myself and my social activities out of desperation for attention. From him, of course. I want to be noticed. I am secretly hoping to elicit a response that would allow me to inject some hope again. My blissful place was before disclosure and his unenthusiastic response to it. No, he doesn’t want to date me or anyone (the latter likely a lie) but would “love to be in my life” is how the story ended. Well, fast forward to months later I find myself struggling with severe intrusive thoughts about “could would shoulda” and feeling particularly annoyed by those who suggest to simply “move on”- yeah right, non limerant types, easy for you to say. Hence I keep throwing up photos on social media of our mutual interest like pickleball matches, art, books, songs in hope he notices and calls, texts, sends any sign we’re friends, he cares, basically that there’s a slither of hope for me that there will ever be a romantic relationship into our future. We’re both single. There are no logistical obstacles in the way.
When I get no response, I find myself in a cycle of self loathing I’ve mentioned earlier. I feel embarrassed, stupid, paranoid he can see right through my weak attempts to get his attention. It’s agonizing.
Anastasia,
Have you read https://livingwithlimerence.com/social-media-and-limerence/?
You can make quite a game of playing cat-and-mouse with your LO or XLO, in my case.
11 years ago, LO #2 sent me an FB request after 25 years of NC. I didn’t accept it but I responded to it. That story is buried somewhere in an earlier post.
The most interesting thing was that LO #2 had a BF, now her husband. There was nothing about him on her page but she was all over his page. For awhile, I watched them both. I swear the was mirroring my posts on his page. I’d post that I went to a concert, a few weeks later, they’d be a post showing them at a concert. I posted some pictures of a trip, I got treated to them on a beach in Hawaii.
Ready for this? I was discussing all this with LO #4 with whom I was developing an LE with. She’s a PsyD. LO #4’s opinion was that was no coincidence. LO #2’s BF was willing to publicly claim her but she wasn’t willing to publicly claim him. In LO #4’s opinion, LO #2 doesn’t want me to know. LO #4 knows more about LO #2 than my wife does.
There’s a lot more to that story. The point is that you can get a lot of limerent mileage from social media games. I don’t play chess but I love strategy and tactics. I was on submarines and submariners are sneaky sons-of-bitches. We like screwing with peoples’ heads for sport.
In the end, it’s not usually productive, perpetuates the LE, and leaves you feeling worse in the morning.
Kind of like a hangover.
But, until you decide that you’ve had enough, you can have some short-term fun playing the social media game.
Just realize that your playing a game that has no real return and it can blow up on you. Do a risk analysis and if the potential consequences are acceptable, play the game for as long as you like.
Eventually, I got tired and quit. One thing that helped me was the EAP Counselor I worked with would beat me over the head with the question, “What would you do with the knowledge if you had it?”
That question helped me realize that I was just playing a game and there was no real benefit.
Dear Anastasia,
I am sorry you are feeling so bad. 😞 It sounds like this man is just not interested, so it is probably in your best interest to block him from your social media and try to move on. It hurts a lot at first, but if you keep hoping that he will pursue you and he doesn’t, you will continue to feel low. A man will pursue a woman if he really wants to, no matter if he is on the spectrum or not.
It might be best to free yourself from this vicious cycle so that you can make your *lovely* self available to a man who will be a man and actually pursue you!
You are in a unique position here at LwL because you are single, so hopefully you’ll get to meet some other great single men who are worthy of your attention and love ❤️.
Wishing you the best!
“When I get no response, I find myself in a cycle of self loathing I’ve mentioned earlier. I feel embarrassed, stupid, paranoid he can see right through my weak attempts to get his attention. It’s agonizing.”
@Anastasia.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing so much upset when you can’t/don’t get your LO’s attention. Please don’t take his lack of responsiveness toward you personally, as a negative reflection of your self-worth, because it isn’t. How other people act genuinely has very little to do with us. It does sound like your moods have become somewhat dependent on this man’s (inconsistent? hard-to-read?) behaviours.
It sounds like your brain has decided this man is a really good man, and that receiving validation from him is extremely important to you. Perhaps this man IS a really good man. Now you must ask yourself: “Why do I need validation from a really good man? Why does validation from this kind of man feel so valuable/precious?”
It sounds like your brain has already decided that you guys have a lot in common, and you badly want to retain that belief as well as the bond you believe you share. And, yes, maybe you guys do have a lot in common. However, having many things in common doesn’t make you ideal romantic partners. It could make you wonderful friends. Limerence, sadly, has a way of stopping good friendship from developing (because the lovesick party always wants more). 😉
If it became clear that this man can never give you what you want in terms of affection and attention, would you still want to carry a torch for him? We have to be realistic about what other people can give us, and what other people want to give us. Imagine a woman who wants a certain man to hug her, and this certain man never wants to hug her, or only hugs her reluctantly and with no real emotion. Imagine how hurt and betrayed this woman would end up feeling.
I’m an Aspie. So here’s another way of framing your situation. Aspies are very, very straightforward. They usually say what they mean and mean what they say. If you truly believe this man is honest enough “not to play games with you”, then why do you assume he’s lying when he says he does not want to date you (or anyone else)? In your own statement, you contradict yourself.
Here’s the Aspie interpretation of the situation: your LO told you the truth and you don’t need to keep obsessing over his words. He likes you very much as a person. Maybe he even admires you as a person. He wants to be your friend, because you clearly have a lot in common interests.
Unlike neurotypical men, Aspie don’t instantly (or ever) sexualise/romanticise relationships with the opposite sex. Even Aspies who are heterosexual often treat women as sisters. (Very frustrating, I know, if the Aspie in question is good-looking and his lady friend is a fan of that particular look).
He doesn’t want to date you or anyone else at this current time. He doesn’t want you to hold out for him either. If you chase him, he will feel increasingly smothered and take steps to distance himself from you. You will drive him away and ruin any sincere friendship you guys do actually share.
You’re clearly a very nice person, Anastasia. Congratulations on your fabulous taste in men!! But what you absolutely must do now – both for yourself and for your Aspie gentleman friend – is find a way to stop being emotionally dependent on this man’s behaviour.
If he’s a true Aspie, he really isn’t sending you bizarre signals over the Internet. The only game being played out is the game being played out in your own mind. Your Aspie friend is just being his quirky Aspie self. It’s nice that you think he’s cute, or whatever. But I think he really needs you to be his friend and not his girlfriend.
He definitely doesn’t need you to be his “female friend who acts like his girlfriend even though she isn’t his girlfriend”. Aspies are not so great at boundaries, unfortunately, and not so great at social cues. So the onus is on you to detach yourself from a man who can’t satisfy you and pursue a man who can give you all the things you want romantically. This detachment isn’t about demonising anyone – it’s about knowing what you want and finding someone who is on the same page as you in terms of relationship goals, needs, etc. 😉
Wishing you good health and happiness on your journey. 😜
Dear Anastasia,
So sorry to hear that you are suffering.
Sammy’s questions are good ones. Limerence has some common features – the main one being that it is not real, it is *all* in our *heads*. If we were free to act and both interested in pursuing relationship, it would not have developed into such a painful experience. It is not really a dialogue with another person, but more of a monologue.
The next important lesson seems to be that the more we indulge it, the more painful it will be. Some of us have never met our LOs in person, others have in the past but no longer do, (this sounds like your case), some of us need to adapt to seeing our LOs at work or we are in the same town/neighbourhood and risk bumping into them. Social media applies in all cases, to more or less of an extent – not so much in my case so I can’t help you too much with that – except to say that others have found it excruciating and only recovered once they cut that down, eventually cutting it out. From what others have said, its the nature of social media with its “intermittent reward” of a ‘like’ or a ‘response’ that is addictive in itself, even without throwing limerence into the mix.
I think what helped me the most with managing limerence was realising that I am doing it to myself. I am training myself on another person, and the more I think and ruminate and fantastise about them, the worse I am going to feel when the inevitable barriers or non-reciprocation mean that I am not free to explore a relationship with LO.
When you feel bad, you can post on here and get dome support from the community.
Sending my best.
Thank you
Your situation reminds me of a song lyric Anastasia …
“I love you too much to ever start liking you
So let’s just let the story kind of end
I love you too much to ever start liking you
so don’t expect me to be your friend”
I cannot advice much on your situation because you have no barriers. But I will tell you a story if you want to humor an old man …
Back when I was young (around 20) I had a young lady that I grew up with (since around 12-13 she went to same church as I did) that one day just caught my eye. She just walked into church one day and I saw her come in and BAM! she wasn’t just the friend I knew she was this beautiful woman I saw. Was it that she wore her hair different that day? She was in an elegant dress? Her appealing heels? I dunno but whatever it was or combination of I fell hard.
I spent much time pursuing her. And while she didn’t seem exactly forthcoming with attention to me, despite all the attention I was giving her, she also wasn’t deflecting my attention. I spent months trying to garner her affection. I bought her gifts. Pampered her in any appropriate way I could. I complimented her constantly about what she was wearing, or her hair, or shoes (even bought her a pair of wedges and got the size right and she said I should be a shoe salesman with a huge smile), or anything I could think of.
Finally she told me she couldn’t see us as any more than friends. After months of not being direct about how she felt and (as I saw in hindsight) enjoying the attention that I gave her. I felt devastated. Heartbroken. She was the first woman I drank over. Lots of gin and Air Supply.
We can’t always anticipate other’s behavior and why they say or do what they say or do. For a long time I blamed myself. That I didn’t do something right. That I wasn’t good enough for her. She was too good for me. Out of my league. (Which she actually was.) I started seeing how desperate I acted. I felt ashamed that I let a woman do this to me. Even in my younger years I was a fairly confident man. But this woman reduced me to begging for attention or affection. I can’t say now that it was limerence for sure. But I am fairly certain she was my first LO. The glimmer happened in an instant and I was hooked. Thankfully there was no social media back in the late 90’s for me to obsess over her with. Cause I would have done it.
Disappointingly, I fell for limerence again. The difference was I was not available to be so. So your situation is quite different from my most current one. Now if you are tired of this old man’s ramblings I will bow out. 🙂
Adam, what do you mean that I have no barriers? No boundaries?
Hi Anastasia,
I think the “barriers” Adam referred to was being married. Though we all struggle with limerence, I think that was the barrier he was referring to.
Hi Anastasia,
You said: “So I keep trying and I’m the process losing my self respect and dignity.”
…”feeling like I’ve just give away the last shred of my dignity. “
My question is: if you consider your self respect and dignity to such an extent, what else are you willing to lose for a person who is unsure if he wants to date you, wants to just be your friend, and seems to be letting you down easy????
Advise: stop playing media games, it’s not worth your dignity or self respect. If a man wants, or is really interested in a woman , there’s no barrier he won’t cross to reach her. All other thinking it’s just fantasy, illusion or obsession. Sorry for the tough love, but you asked for advice…
Best wishes.
No, I don’t mind tough love but I am confused by your question. Isn’t this an outlet for our collective limerant woes? Otherwise none of us would be here. Why am I pining after a man who doesn’t want to date me? I think my brain is broken?
We had a sexual relationship for months although he never behaved like a bf, he opened the doors to his personal life and it got me hooked on hope it would become more. Then he dropped the friendship word and my world shattered.
Dear Anastasia,
Yes, this is a place to also tell of our woes and concerns with limerence and the sufferings it brings to us. I got carried away, since you mentioned to recognizing your self esteem and dignity were almost completely given away. I figured you wanted to go No Contact, therefore I wanted to encourage you. Sorry, I made the wrong assessment. Can you forgive me?
Going NC is a very cold turkey decision to make, it’s not that easy as it seems. Many of us started it and at one point slipped back, then started again until one gets the knack of it, or the real value of it. Because a period of grief comes with it for which one isn’t prepared. It’s like grieving the death of a loved one, and it may take a long time to get healed, depending on how much and how long one was involved in the relationship.
So , I suppose, you want to dial back slowly and see what happens. That’s another way of getting detached from LO or see if it fades away with time ? I’m not sure how that works…depends on the limerent. I went No Contact immediately because I don’t like ambivalent situations, or one sided relationships , I can’t take doubting the LO , nor the suffering and uncertainty that comes with it. But that’s me. It hurts like a bastard but at least I’m not fooling myself with false hopes, if you know what I mean. And I don’t like to give control of my life to LO, too proud for that. So I chose Acceptance instead, and I’m working on it…
I wish you get discernment on what to do with your ongoing LO relationship.
Best wishes.
Stay strong and lots of courage.
I found a poem in the internet that seems to point to limerence, it rang a bell, (or how do you say)
Things I Do to Avoid Myself
fall in love / fall in obsession and call it love / put all my hope in someone else’s hands / all my dreams / all my wants / weave them together until they are one / laugh it off when I’m not what they want / drink so I can blame the tears on being drunk / go out to show the world I’m moving on / pretend it’s something else I’m running from
L.E.Bowman
Mila,
I agree with you that poem really sounds like describing limerence. Many people could identify those feelings, but few know anything about the term “limerence”, that runs along with “addictions” in chemical substance, sugar, or internet…
Limerent nurse says
FEBRUARY 1, 2024 AT 2:05 PM
“You are in a unique position here at LwL because you are single, so hopefully you’ll get to meet some other great single men who are worthy of your attention and love“
Hardly unique at all, I’d say. There are very many contributors here, past and present, who are single and conscious of the advantages and disadvantages of that state.
I don’t feel so “lucky” to be single given that there are zero men out there who can even hold my interest besides my LO. Please don’t ask me how long I’ve been in this state because it reminds me I’ve been stuck for so many years I’ve actually lost count. It also doesn’t help matters that LO has stayed single all this time as well (so it seems from the damn social media posts)
Marcia says
FEBRUARY 1, 2024 AT 6:38 PM
“One of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesn’t matter what you do. Call the LO. Don’t call. Text. Don’t text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or don’t. None of it matters and it won’t change anything.“
Yes, indeed, Marcia. A tough truth amongst what I sometimes see as very well-meaning, but mawkish, observations and enabling comments. My current view is definitely skewed by my tough decision to finally accept that enough is enough.
I honestly would probably cringe at something I might have wrote as a “well meaning” comment that was very enabling when I was in limerence. I guess it comes from not wanting to let go of LO so you sub-consciously make light of the severity of what newcomers here are experiencing. I think I do better now. There are a lot of newcomers here that I don’t reply to because their situation is/was similar to mine. Sometimes I even write out a whole lengthy post and then while proof reading it be like “no I don’t need post”. There’s even been times I stop typing out a post because it was going wake up my limerent brain. It’s a very difficult balance to maintain posting here.
Wise words, Adam. I know what you mean and LwL is strangely addictive. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, though, and huge respect to Dr L for all his selfless work.
Hi Adam, me too. I often draft replies but never post them. Newcomers especially as I know others on LwL will be more helpful and also sometimes newcomers just make a comment like a ship passing by, not staying in the harbor (like us) , which is also fine as they are not always necessarily seeking advice.
Hi Frederico, loving the energy and leadership on LwL right now !
Adam says
FEBRUARY 1, 2024 AT 2:18 PM
“Now if you are tired of this old man’s ramblings I will bow out. 🙂”
Adam! You are not old and you don’t ramble (except perhaps slightly when you downed a couple of beers).
I reckon that you are hugely respected in this rather unusual forum. So please stop being so self-effacing. I probably have thirty years plus on you – age creeps up so gradually. Enjoy what you have my old (but not so old) friend.
Lol frederico. It’s more an inside joke that I forget not every one knows. My supervisor whose only 6 years younger calls me that because he so desperately wants to look and act young. To his credit he does look quite a bit younger than he really is. So he refers to me as “the old man” especially to new hires so he can try feel younger. I am actually amused by it because it says more about him than my age.
I hope someday I have as good of a vocabulary as you. I had to google “self-effacing”. But yeah I do do that a lot. So thank you for the kind words.
😉
I had to google „mawkish“…
Ha Ha, Mila. Hope you’re still doing ok. I’d better pipe down before I fill the “latest comments” list. x
Frederico,
I‘m doing really ok! I‘m surprised by my lack of rumination myself.
I like it when you fill the list, you‘ve got such a mellifluous name.
(Had to google that too)
Would I?
Abso freaking lutely.
Limerence was a terrifying experience for me, almost life threatening, awful, time consuming, so confusing and restless. The only thing that I got from it was the knowledge of behavior and signs that I simply cannot tolerate or ignore in the future.
What you have said sums it all up in a nutshell to me, Nens, and I do hope that you have found some peace.
“almost life threatening, awful, time consuming, so confusing and restless”
That’s a very powerful description and I’m with you all the way.
It’s been brought to my notice that DoctorL has been hiding all my posts , hence the lack of replies . So much for a “welcoming community” . It’s his forum so he can do what he wants but no surprise everyone it buggering off to pastures new where people are allowed to speak without judging
Are you sure about this? Sometimes I have a hard time finding/recovering my posts, as there is no real method here of actually finding all my posts in one place. Just have to search more. Yes it can be aggravating.
Jim, Dr. L moved some of your first posts and the replies to a Coffeehouse, as was off topic to the blog topic you originally posted on ( not sure which one). Dr L does this when there is a lot of activity that is not pertinent to the original blog. So don’t take it personally. I think he did inform us of that, I’ve not spent my time to track back.
If he deleted other posts you have posted since, then that his perocative to do so. I trust Dr Ls judgement and dedication in managing this site.
It’s ridiculous. As soon as I feel finally not limerent any more, LO suddenly is able to suggest a date for a meeting without SOs and generally make some effort. Really? Such a cliché- as soon as you pull back genuinely without wanting to play games, the other side starts to come after you.
The good thing is, I don’t rejoice and get pulled back in, I have to shake my head at this cliché-like behavior or situation and am actually not that keen on the meeting. But also curious if I will keep my current non-limerence state of mind during and after. I think chances are good that I can manage that.
While I write, he sends another two messages🤷🏻♀️
Three now.
It’s really a bit laughable. I don’t mean him, I mean the whole situation.
Hi Mila. It is good that you feel that you will be under control after meeting LO one-one-one. I think that you are in a great place right now with regards to your LE, and it would be great for you to keep things in check in the future as well. Let us know how the meeting turns out.
Hey Mila,
This is why it is so exhausting. You get things settled in your head and then LO does something unpredictable, or life throws a curveball at you, or something else causes you to re-engage.
My advice – and you know this already – is not to overthink this. In fact, not to think about it at all. If you want to go, then only do so to please yourself and take control. Most importantly, his motivations dont matter. … As I was saying earluer in the week, the sheer futility of it all has been getting to me. And you are also where I am at, 52% limerent, remember?!
I am just cheerleading you here
Jeez – I dont see my friends this often🤔 It sounds really exhausting Mila!
Hi Mila, you know what, I’m actually not surprised. When you said earlier today that he suggested to see you this week I assumed he wanted one-on-one ( as it was missed last time) and indeed that is the case.
Bewitched gives very wise words as always! And I agree on the frequency thing. I don’t see or message very close friends anywhere near as often as you do with your LO 😂
In fact I realise I’m messaging here and especially to you more than my reality folks at the moment!
I would say stick to your plan, you are in control. Live and deliver on this empowerment. Dial it to the setting you want it to be at.
Hi Imho,
just reread your message and am honoured that at the moment you message me more than your real people (probably because they have no problems to get their sh… together, not like me)! Your messages are sometimes like a lifeline to sanity for me(also Bewitcheds and ABCDs of course).
For example, I reread now because now he is pissed off, I guess (only answering with thumbs up on my confirmation of the meeting and then not replying on the next message) and it’s hard for me not to get anxious about it and try to establish warm contact again.
It‘s some deeply rooted insecurity, I cannot stand people not liking me, I get sad and anxious, even if they are not that important to me. In LO‘s case it’s worse, of course.
It’s an automatic response and I have to fight it with reason.
He has no reason to be pissed off other than I cooled down to a normal level of texting. So no reason to feel bad about it, right? It should be the best for both of us in the long run.
Hi Mila. I think that you are absolutely doing the right thing by dialing back.
I have been in your situation before. If LO did not respond to messages or did not “like” messages, I used to wonder why – did I do something wrong and is LO angry or annoyed with me (maybe she is who knows), does she have issues of her own that she is sorting out, is she doing the hot-cold thing on purpose to keep me hooked.
You can see my mind was wandering in all directions at super fast speed. All this caused an extreme amount of distress. Over a period of time, I could not keep up and it became a bit too much. So, now I avoid reaching out (6 weeks, and going strong).
I would say try not to worry about LO’s response too much, try to break the LO validation loop. Hopefully, LO will get the message and be graceful about it. You can do this!!
Hi ABCD,
Thanks for the encouragement to stay with the course.
Meanwhile he not only replied but suggested in another chat a further meeting with two other people, something we did last autumn, nice occasions but laden with limerence back then on both sides, I reckon.
He‘s for sure suddenly so active because his SO isn’t in town this week. It’s actually difficult to find dates and I’ll try to get SO to come too.
Imho and Bewitched will shake their heads at all this social activity;) but I do actually work sometimes, too, believe it or not😆
I‘m still in a good place. Few weeks ago I would have become nostalgic at the prospect of this kind of meeting and excited that he suddenly makes such effort to see me without SOs, but now I‘m not keen on it.
Still have to go through the test of seeing him in person.
6 weeks, wow. Going strong, ABCD!
I think it’s all about the ruminations and thoughts to die down. I read „You are not your brain“( cannot recall the authors’names at the moment)and although the message isn’t new to me, it reinforces the fact that we train our brain on certain responses and can retrain it to a certain extent, or at least stop reinforcing the same bad habit over and over again.
I think we are doing really well!
Hi Mila, it seems you are socially in very high demand! 😂
His SO is out of town. Hmm, then you can potentially expect a ramp up in messages from him as well as these meet ups.
I guess it’s just being on your guard this week and not to overthink stuff and don’t feel like you annoyed him etc by short replies or late replies or whatever. You are simply extremely busy and there are other people and demands in your life than him, right ?!
Right!:)
His SO is actually away a lot and he‘s away a lot, so he‘s on his own a lot, which doesn’t help the messaging and probable fixation on me as someone to message, get validation from, send pictures to etc.
At the moment he only texts in the group chat which is fine by me.
I still feel I can handle it.
It’s a good thing I have to cut out alcohol, so no wine- induced nostalgia setting in, should this evening (the group chat is about) take place.
Hope you are going strong too, Imho.
Miss Mila
You shouldn’t ever have that concern here. You are one of the most sweet and kindest women here. You are a great asset to this community. Don’t doubt yourself young lady. 😉
Not necessarily a limerent update but upon a conversation I had with my wife this weekend I mentioned LO in my sleep. Momma didn’t bring it up despite it happening before our conversation.
On the 26th of December I went to the location she used to work at. First time since she left. I wanted to talk to my supervisor concerning the young lady that works with us now. Well just last week I got a call from him and he said that she (the current woman working for us) was puzzled as to why I traveled that far on a vacation day to voice concern for her that she was happy at this job with us.
He said I told her you are outdated. He still thinks women need to be saved. Jackass lol I mean he’s not wrong so I can’t be too mad. But anyway Momma said I had mentioned LO in my sleep along with some of the other ladies that have worked there since I started 5 years ago. Momma said she just figured it was a work related thing and didn’t wake me up. She said it was the starting lineup and made no deal of it.
I turned off the early alarm Sunday and laid in bed with Momma and went to the latter church service. She has been having pain and cramps and says my unusually high body temperature helps when I lay next to her. So I stayed in bed with her. Best morning ever.
Adam,
thanks so much for the compliment, it means much to me, my self-confidence just crawled a whole bit higher:)
I also think that your dream must have been work-related, why else say all the names of your co-workers. Sounds like a good sign that she‘s maybe now in the same level as them and not high above, if you know what I mean.
Adam,
Well done on recognising a “jackass” when someone is being one. So much better than turning this against yourself. You are chivalrous and even your jackass-acting colleague knows this. So, there!
I am so glad that you had a nice weekend at home. Onwards, upwards, and I hope your lovely wife feels better this week.
Mila
You are most welcome. You are very positive addition to our community and I am glad that you have joined our rag tag team. And yes. Just from Momma’s reaction I think we are getting there together and it is wonderful.
Bewitched
Lol my wife absolutely would agree with you. She is not a fan of my boss at all. And she’s only met him once. But in the these ladies’ defense I told my wife when talking to her the other night “you country ladies don’t need me” and she says “nope”. And I am like “damn can you let me down easy?” Lol These southern American gals are all a breed all their own. Damn me falling for tomboys every time. 🙂
(I know it doesn’t sound very pissed off to outstanders, but I know him)
Hi Mila:
“I think it’s all about the ruminations and thoughts to die down. I read „You are not your brain“( cannot recall the authors’names at the moment)and although the message isn’t new to me, it reinforces the fact that we train our brain on certain responses and can retrain it to a certain extent, or at least stop reinforcing the same bad habit over and over again”.
—-
What you have said here is so true. Thoughts of LO still pop up in my head every now and then, but they do not cause as much sad feelings are before. There is no urge to check their social media – heck, I have not checked that now for weeks. All this points to serious progress, so well done to us!!
Adam,
I think that’s serious progress too! Since it’s so easy to check social media. My LO doesn’t post much there anyway, luckily, I’m not sure if I’d have been as strong as you.
Way to go!!
Now I called ABCD Adam, because I read Adam’s post before. Sorry!
Would I turn my limerence off, if I had a choice?
I think I’ll say a tentative “yes” to this question.
After lots of reflection, I think genuine limerence is actually quite rare, as opposed to crushes, which are quite common. Even people who called themselves serial limerents can probably only have a new LO/LE every 3-4 years at best. (A LE cycle that’s consistently shorter than two years probably wouldn’t be favourable to pair-bonding).
I think I’ve only had one LO/LE, although I’ve had a lot of non-limerent social interactions which were painful because I worried about rejection in those interactions too.
I think my LE lasted 25 years start to finish. (I’d say I was in the “altered state” of limerence between the ages of 16 and 40, inclusive. This is the first year of my adult life where I’m “out” of the “altered state”).
Nothing ever happened with my LO. Never got that close to him. It was just a fantasy that took place in my head. An LE starts, in my opinion, when one feels some hope the LO might like one back, and indulges in pleasurable fantasies about that person and the possible relationship that might develop someday. An LE ends when one feels indifferent toward LO, and would no longer accept an offer of a relationship from that person. (In my case, due to lack of common interests).
I’d be very upset if someone developed limerence for me. The reason I’d be upset if someone developed limerence for me is I’d feel that person didn’t really like me for myself. I’d feel that the limerent only liked the intense emotions they were experiencing inside of themselves, and I am not the true source of those emotions.
„ I’d be very upset if someone developed limerence for me. The reason I’d be upset if someone developed limerence for me is I’d feel that person didn’t really like me for myself. I’d feel that the limerent only liked the intense emotions they were experiencing inside of themselves, and I am not the true source of those emotions.“
Very well thought.
I know what you mean. With my current LO for example I feel that he‘s limerent (or something similar, he‘s anyway clinging to our connection) 1. because I‘m the connection to his former life/work while he decides to leave or stay, 2. because I gave him a lot of validation, praising his work and baking and whatnot, 3. because he likes pretty women around him and feels probably validated by that too, and it gives him something to daydream about when he‘s alone in his new town.
None of it has got something to do with me as a person. I know I‘m a bit unfair. I guess one could make a list like that for any relationship, and also for me the other way round. I‘m sure he likes me as a person too.
But it helps me to see it that way, and I‘m not completely wrong.
Also, in my past LEs I also had the feeling that my emotions had more to do with myself than LO and they didn’t know what hit them sometimes, although reciprocating more or less.
Hi Sammy,
“ I think genuine limerence is actually quite rare, as opposed to crushes, which are quite common.”
I believe this to be true. I had many crushes, love affairs, but none “altered my mind” as this fantasy with LO since 20 months ago. I have never before had ruminations nor intrusive thoughts, or my mind taken hostage in such a way it rendered me helpless to control my thoughts . I once had a crush on someone that lasted for almost three years, but it didn’t alter my mind in anyway at all. I didn’t suffer like I’m suffering now for LO. I didn’t even cried at breakups with other romantic affairs, not even when I broke up with my current LO so many years ago. So I’m a thousand percent sure this is my only episode of limerence. And at this elderly age!!! It’s such a rare occurrence that it’s incredible!
Have a nice peaceful week. Hugs
Let me make sure I indeed understand correctly. SAME LO for 2 and a half decades? I’m going on 7 years with the same LO and I thought I was in the 1% statistically. I’ve often wondered if I’m truly an anomaly because so far my brain tells me I’ll never fully “let go” of him and oddly, I am accepting this with a certain embrace even. Life can be cruel at times and this fantasy of mine is my own comfort zone. Can anyone relate?
Additionally, I’ve watched Little Women last night, the film and I weeped when Laurie proposed to Joe and he turned him down. Such a profound example of unrequited love.
Would I take it back? I think I am so used to loving with limerance, I feel as it has become a part of my identity. Sad but true.
Hi Anastasia,
Yes the comfort of our own fantasies rings very true for me. Recognising that and calling it out is a great start and then really wanting to get a better balance between your own head and the real world is key. On another blog post right now (friendship after limerence) there is some good dialogue about personality types and attachment theories which I think is worthy of investing in your own self analysis. (Limerent Emeritus posts some links. )
Spend the time on you, who you are, your behaviors etc this puts the focus on you and not on your LO. I think you deserve that investment for yourself now and your future self.
We aren’t actors in a fuzzy movie accepting the forlorn endless suffering of unrequited love. We can be the change, if we really want it.
What do you want out of this life and what are the amazing things in this world you want to experience? (You don’t need to answer me, it’s just hopefully helpful for you to ask yourself )
FYI- apparently I have anxious attachment style of relating to others (which explains the push pull with LO who is most likely very DA – dismissive avoidant and an Aspie on top of it- my own assumption) so thanks but I’ve researched this extensively and yeah, unfortunately the clash of attachment styles doesn’t help my own situation
There’s a lady named Ann on YouTube who goes by Crappy Childhood Fairy- has anyone heard of her? She has a significant following and one of her latest videos was about limerance and childhood wounding- the correlation to it, that is- highly educational
Hi Imho, Bewitched and ABCD,
you surely feel like friends by now, you are the only persons I can talk to about this and you always answer so kindly and unjudgmentally.
Some of my friends I message not often and see about every two or three weeks, but I count them to my best friends. With others the messaging can be frantic and we see each other at work and for coffee often (my younger colleague friends), but it’s much more superficial. Some I see only once a year and the connection is still stronger than with my young work friends.
When LO was still a colleague I saw him at work but met maximum once in two months outside work. It got so much since he left, out of anxiety on both sides to lose connection. Now we meet every time he’s in town, about every two weeks.
Actually even with my „normal“ friends I prefer short one to ones in town to elaborate meetings with family at home (of course they are nice once in a while), it’s not much hassle and you can catch up with each other better.
But this time I’m the one who’s fidgeting because he suggested Wednesday which is not ideal for me…
Thanks for listening. I‘ll see how it goes..
Hi all,
Mila I think you are doing so great. Well done for navigating the flurry of recent contact and LO initiative. He sounds like he is a bit anxious at the moment…
I totally get how it feels when there is a flurry of contact. I myself become slightly happier and, ironically also more critical, almost as though I can relax (fewer low feelings due to contact), while at the same time question it more.
I have been journalling the past few months and re-reading those entries I realised my moods are hilarious to me. – What a drama queen I can be! This also annoys me as my default is friendly, and – in matters of love – chilled-out and cool, above all things. My journalling reveals someone who is anything but!
One of the things I like about my LO is generally how he brings out my softer side. So, even though it not “me” / my usual reaction, I think it helps me manage my limerence when I get pissed off at him. He never knows about it, of course. The only thing better would be not thinking about him at all.
Training your mind on someone means eventually needing to untrain it.
Unless he does something that is an instant turn-off, like flirts with another woman in front of me, I must resign myself to untraining my mind.
Good luck this week Mila! I hope my thoughts help in some way (😘!)
„I myself become slightly happier and, ironically also more critical, almost as though I can relax (fewer low feelings due to contact), while at the same time question it more.“
That got me thinking- of course you are right, it’s easy to be relaxed and „nah, I don’t need it anymore“ about it when the other side is chasing you – as we have seen in the one instant he didn’t message back, it’s harder when LO seems to pull back/cool down…
So the last word isn‘t spoken about the end of this LE.
I know about the soft side you speak about- I also like my soft side, I like to „love“ people and see the best in them, and the hardening and closing that is necessary to get rid of the limerence doesn’t feel good to me, it has been a problem.
Thanks for your thoughts, they definitely bring me forward.
(My now trained reflex on kissing Emojis- don’t write one back- works! Even with you😂
But you deserve one:😘)
Hi Mila, Bewitched, and all:
“One of the things I like about my LO is generally how he brings out my softer side. So, even though it not “me” / my usual reaction, I think it helps me manage my limerence when I get pissed off at him”.
–
This resonates with me as well. I would really not want to not like LO, as in general, I am easy going, and because its LO :), but, in this case, the hardened stance is needed and necessary to get over the LE. It is kind of like a necessary evil I guess. The way I am looking at it is that each day without LO contact is making me more resolute.
Hi ABCD,
„the hardened stance is needed
and necessary to get over the LE.“
So this is my Mantra for today;)
since LO is really searching for contact. The group thing is probably not going to happen this time he‘s in town, so it’s only the short meeting tomorrow.
He already tried to make more of it in a quite stealthy way (too complicated to explain) and I shot it down and am quite proud of it. He hasn’t replied to that which means I was right in guessing what he was trying to do.
I‘m deliberately taking a not so nice view of his actions and suggestions, I know that it’s not wholly fair but it helps and also there’s a grain of truth in the negative view too.
But I know that I could do this to any friend or acquaintance- put the negative spin on everything- and it’s actually not who I am, and how I want to look at people and life…
It’s hard but I still think it’s a good way to get out. And it will work unless he suddenly surprises me with a nice or selfless gesture, which he will not do, I hope.
Maybe I should be a tad nicer so that he doesn’t get the idea he has to make gestures. It’s kind of a strategy game at the moment😆but I feel I‘m getting there, out of limerence…
Sorry for all the detailed rambling again, it does help me , nobody has to answer, just bear with me🙈
Hi Mila, he obviously is wanting more social contact generally maybe. You can’t be expected to be available all the time just cause he’s in town.
Stay cool in every sense 😎 let us know how it goes tomorrow.
Btw thanks for your nice words on here thanking “us lot” on Sunday, I’m catching up a bit as I had a busy weekend, lots of distractions.
Hi Imho,
yes, I actually understand him, he‘s alone and a bit nostalgic for old friends here, but then I don’t have to accommodate him on that if it’s not good for me.
I‘m back to a quite truthful view of him without the rose-tinted glasses, I just hope I can keep it during today and tomorrow, and, very important, not to slide back into a lot of texting afterwards.
I want to be like you and not refresh this site so often😆but I feel I’m at a crucial point right now.
Thanks for your support, also Bewitched!
😘😘😘
Hi Mila:
Yeah, devaluing LO in one’s mind and dialling back on contact is hard, but its still the best option.
Good luck for the group meeting. In my experience, the group meetings seem easier to handle LO-wise, as compared to the one-on-ones with LO. I would say try to play it cool with LO and mingle with other guests. I am sure you can come out the meeting feeling good, all the best!
Hi all,
the group is unfortunately very small, it just reduced itself to 3🙈but that doesn’t change my resolve. I don’t want to cancel it because it would be a bit mean after all the date searching and also because I’m really quite curious and think it’s actually a good thing to have a reality check again.
I‘ll take you all with me in small size in my pocket, and when I start to slide back into limerent feelings, you will all wave your tiny sticks around, hit me and squeak in your tiny voices „don’t destroy the good work! Stay strong, you can do it! Everything futile“ etc.
😃
ABCD, I believe you have won “star pupil of the week” award once again ! This is for your determination and resoluteness. We salute you.
Hi all,
Great stuff, ABCD. You are showing us the way and, yes, we salute you.
Mila – “Maybe I should be a tad nicer so that he doesn’t get the idea he has to make gestures. It’s kind of a strategy game at the moment😆but I feel I‘m getting there, out of limerence…”
I agree that a little bit of strategic manipulation is no harm, in this case. The unfortunately truth is that, as soon a you give him what he wants, he will switch into Mr Complacent again.
And – lest we forget – the entire thing is futile anyway. Keep repeating it to self x 1000……
Bewitched,
the thing is, I don’t care so much;) I don’t want him to be suddenly so nice that I slide back again, so better keep him a bit complacent.
Suddenly the group thing is on again for tonight. Well. I‘m actually curios how it goes, if I can keep my detached stance. Will keep to the other guests.
ABCD is my shining example!
Thanks Imho! Just trying to face adversity and trying to come out strong. I am sure all of you can do it too! 🍺 to that!
Adam,
This one’s for you and Damnit.
“Lady” – Styx (1973)
https://youtu.be/Ea4pH5hpxHk?feature=shared
In 1983, I thought LO #2 owned this song. I had the wrong woman but I wouldn’t know that until 1988.
Thanks Bewitched, the support of all of you means a lot as we work our way through LE.
You make an interesting point. In the past, if I did not reach out or seek LO, lets say at a group gathering, LO would mostly reach out immediately, perhaps to seek validation, and I always used to reciprocate. So, it became like a see-saw match. Its probably best to just get out of this loop, towards freedom.
Don’t worry, Mila, you’ve got this! We will be with you in spirit, encouraging you.
😍
I allow myself not to get immersed in the ongoing discussion what other limerents should do or not do, because I allow myself to be selfish and only watch myself and do what I think is the best for me to get rid of my special case of LE.
I need from time to time to chew on some things that I could never utter to other persons, and I think the progress I made is due to the completely unjudgmental responses from others here.
The „politically correct“display remorse and guilt and knowing what would be morally correct is anyway there in my mind the whole time, I don’t need to reinforce it here, I need a platform to empty the other thoughts into…As long as I don’t lose my goal out of sight (ending limerence, keeping friend)I allow myself anything that might help, and be it rechewing of texts or whatever, and I do apologize for that.
And yes, I did make progress, I think. I met LO at the group thing and today one on one.
The group thing was not really group but only 3, I felt a bit empty and awkward the whole time because I had shut myself up against LO and couldn’t relax the whole time, wishing I was home instead.
But today’s meeting was good. We had the same warm connection going as before limerence, without me always willing him to give more signs of affection or hint at something or touch. We spoke relaxed about a lot of things, also about work and if he might come back or not. Now chances are a bit more that he stays away, and I could listen to that without the anxiety and sorrow to lose him that I had before, and advise him neutrally as a friend who just wants the best for him.
Quite proud of that.
I’ve got the feeling that now, afterwards, is the even more crucial time- warm friendly feelings are back, always a danger to slide back into something a bit more, so now I should really be on my guard, not give in to texting too much and thinking of him. Now is the time to distract myself and stay at that nice level of having a good connection that feels normal. I believe I can make it and prove Marcia wrong 😉 that you cannot have an ex-LO in your life.
But I think mine is a really a special case, in that I was in a non-limerent friendship with LO for such a long time, I think it is easier to go back to that than from knowing someone only as an object of desire.
Hi Mila, I like your eloquent comment, from the heart. I agree, we all have own individual situations/ complexities that many of us are struggling with, that we simply can’t work through on our own nor with friends or family. Hell, most people including therapists haven’t even heard of limerence let alone know how to treat it! So yes thanks we have lwl community here.
(there is that other anon forum spin-off from here to consider- it needs a sign-in)
More importantly, I’m very glad the back-to-back meet ups have mostly a good outcome for you and that you are getting back to pre-limerence zone with your friend. Let’s call him your friend and not LO here on ?! Is that pushing it ? I would also say that maybe try to store your thoughts right now to refer back to for coming days/ weeks . Or copy and paste your post here somewhere secure to refer back to, in case you need to reassure or remind yourself. Let’s stay connected
Hi Imho,
Thanks for your ongoing support! I hope all is well with you!
As I just wrote to Marcia (working my way backwards in posts, I surely missed some)
I still feel in a good place.
After the very nice f2f meeting I feel relaxed and benevolent towards him without any limerent yearnings. He texts as expected more now, but I hold back without being rude or thinking too much about it.
Of course I work a lot at the moment, might be harder if there would be more time to ruminate, but I honestly feel I‘ve managed a significant step forward here.
(I joined the spin-off forum without posting there, but couldn’t really get a hold onto it, it feels better here somehow.
But of course we could take Bewitched or whoever wants to meet there if we go on the nerves of the other people here🤷🏻♀️and write private messages, but I’m actually not sure if that is really possible there, would have to check.)
Hi Mila, really good to hear. You are in control and have a great plan too. Work busy surely helps. Just be guarded that quiet time will come and thoughts can sneak up on you. I find this happens for me at least. Not to be negative, just be mindful !
I’m ok. In dormancy period and just not initiating anything at all. I have some good ‘excuses’ to contact him, but I haven’t.
I will share more I guess when I figure it out further.
I’m also not sure about the other forum. I can be a bit ‘in and out’ depending what’s happening, so don’t want to commit too much if you know what I mean.let me know if you pursue it further. Dr. L created coffeehouses to allow folks to go way off-topic and we should respect that diversity in my view ( sharing last night’s dreams, poetry creations, our diet plans, emoji choice strategies etc etc!! )
But I’m feeling a little bit wary now shall we say. I’m probably just over-sensitive. Blame my Myers Briggs result. Ha ha!!
Hi Mila & IMHO,
I think that I am obsessed enough that a single forum is all I can manage – I definitely have obsessive tendencies – and was wailing earlier today about how long it takes me to complete work things because of this. But if you were keen, I could be persuaded 😊
Its helpful to have people in the same setting /stage to bounce off, which is what I think we’ve have had all along. The other points of view also keep us honest 😉
I am amazed by @Mila and @Problem Child’s progress and have made a mental note to send a congrats message. Wow. I don’t want to jinx it by congratulating too early, but even getting this far is celebration-worthy!!
With boxing gloves up against complacency, of course 🥊😊
Hi Bewitched,
“I definitely have obsessive tendencies – and was wailing earlier today about how long it takes me to complete work things because of this.”.
Oh my !! Me too is all I can say. Im often off with the fantasy fairies ignoring my to-do list or way into obsessive detail and taking too long on one task to make it perfect.
I have a particular thing which is seen as “related to OCD” that I can’t even disclose here as it’s so embarrassing to admit !
Anyway I also will congratulate Problem Child as it’s a breakthrough. I’m just processing if to do something similar.
Appreciate the balanced view you brought here btw 🙂
Hi Bewitched and Imho,
I couldn’t manage two forum (fora?) either, I spend way too much time here as it is. We can just wait and see.
Dormancy sounds good, not initiating even better.
So what’s your Myers Briggs , Imho?;) I’m INFJ or was the last time I tested😆it seems to vary, that’s why I don’t believe too much in it.
But what is this about doing something similar to what Problem Child did?
Do you mean disclosing and cutting him off? Please think twice (or thrice;)) about disclosing. I‘m so glad I didn’t disclose now.
Bewitched, it’s a bit too early for congratulation in my case, I‘m still wary.
There’s a hard test coming up, he will work at my side for a week soon, work being where we click. But I‘m quite confident that I can sail these waters too.
Mila,
“I believe I can make it and prove Marcia wrong 😉 that you cannot have an ex-LO in your life.
But I think mine is a really a special case, in that I was in a non-limerent friendship with LO for such a long time, I think it is easier to go back to that than from knowing someone only as an object of desire.”
That beautiful loving, longing feeling in limerence, as you have described before, does not come easily and so hard to keep alive in one’s life. So cherish it when you still have it!
As long as you could stabilize your LE downside moods and stay away from sweets, I wish you the best luck to keep your ex-LO (a long-term friend) in your life! (I so want to see a “successful” case in this ghost “family)
Hi Snowphoenix,
but this longing is exactly what I want to erase…I want to enjoy my friendship with this really nice and special guy without all the longing and expectations and general limerent hassle;)
I know what you mean by it being beautiful, it was beautiful at times, but I always comes with pain and guilt, I don’t want it anymore, especially not in one of my precious friendships.
I do stay away from sweets quite successfully too, by the way:)
@Mila,
Everything comes with a “price”, one LE feature is “longing”. It’s hard to live with for some people, but not a big deal in others who can hold “longing” in peace.
I don’t know how to get rid of it, once had it, and then go back to your previous “friendship” stage, without some kind of ‘deprogramming” of LO’s images in your mind.
Congratulations on your progress in staying away from sweets.
„I don’t know how to get rid of it, once had it, and then go back to your previous “friendship” stage, without some kind of ‘deprogramming” of LO’s images in your mind“
Well, that deprogramming is exactly what I’m trying to do all the time here and on my own.
Deprogramming has to be processed and achieved by each limerent self, no Gods of any world, or any “ghosts’” words here, could specifically help.
Mine is psychologically “assisted” by my many bizarre dreams, which was certainly somehow affected by the conscious mind during waking hours. So I believe deprogramming is related to logical thinking as well.
Nowadays when I encounter LO, it feels like I was dealing with another colleague with genuine cordiality and sincere care. The phantom, reveries, misunderstandings, arguments, resentments…. of past 6 year seem to be a serial night dreams, so hardly associated with LO standing in front me. I could even remember his realistic face better now, outside the campus.
That longing is still deep inside me, accompanied by a stinging sadness, but has no effects on my natural outlook and daily mandates. I feel such longing’s sweetness, astronomically better than indifference or emptiness there before meeting LO.
Mila,
“I believe I can make it and prove Marcia wrong 😉 that you cannot have an ex-LO in your life.”
I can’t really speak to having an ex-LO is one’s life. I suppose it may be possible to go NC and then see the LO some time later and find that the limerence is gone and resume a friendship. I hesitate to say that hoping for that is a good idea in that most limerents will white-knuckle it until they can see the LO in the future and not really get over the limerence. They’ll keep the limerence on “low simmer.” It sounds like another workaround. And if there’s one thing a limerent knows how to do, it’s a workaround. 🙂 I’ve tried a lot of them myself. Tried all kinds ot tactics to not go NC. They didn’t work.
Hi Marcia,
of course you are definitely right in most cases.
I just think that my current LE is special. I had two before, and this one is different. LO is my longterm friend, for whom I’ve never been limerent before, and I feel that I can come back to that friendship. You don’t have to believe me, but I think I can make it in his special case, because no disclosure or other harm was done, I know him very well with all his good and bad sides, and I know it all came from his leaving work, some deep and probably unrelated anxiety of loss was triggered inside me- but now I feel I got that under control, and I don’t feel the obsession and expectations anymore.
I don’t want to swear on it, but for the moment I can smell the freedom;) and I‘m resolved to cling to it.
Mila,
It may work. I don’t know. I’ve never been friends first with an LO before becoming limerent.
There was a poster on here who became limerent for a friend (Jadieux) and she eventually had to go NC.
I also know that a limerent will try to do almost everything possible to keep the LO in their lives. I tried various LC tactics. I didn’t even see him that much at the end of the LE but the LE was still there, still kind of gnawing at me despite waning, and running into him, no matter how infrequently, still bothered me. To be completely done with it, I had to go NC.
Marcia,
We‘ll see, of course I cannot know it for sure.
Chances are good that he will leave town for good anyway this year, and this will make it far easier for me, of course, and I think it’s a good sign that I do accept this prospect now without regret.
It’s also a good sign that I have neither angry feelings towards him like I had in the last weeks nor too affectionate emotions. Maybe I‘m off the see-saw, who knows, time will tell.
I have to be on my guard with this, but I should not forget to be on my guard also not to let any other limerence develop ever again. You managed that, didn’t you? So I can manage that too💪🏻
Mila,
“should not forget to be on my guard also not to let any other limerence develop ever again. You managed that, didn’t you? ”
Yes. I did have a little blip a while back. This guy started subtly fliritng with me at this sports/group activity I signed up for. I went back a second time — yes, to see him — and was he noticeably flirting with this time, touching me, etc. Did I mention his wife was at both to these events? HA HA HA . There’s something about the wife being there that throws cold water on things. I decided I wasn’t going to go back and a few weeks later, I realized I hadn’t even thought about him. And I’m glad the whole thing was nipped in the bud quickly. I don’t want to get sucked into that again.
But I was getting sucked up at first because I was checking the group sign-up sheets, hoping he was on one of them — and she wasn’t. I could feel myself getting a little engergized by it. It’s easy to get really close to the edge.
Marcia,
I think is inevitable to meet people here and there who glimmer, and it’s human and normal to be attracted and maybe even do some first steps towards them in reflex.
But then you realized that it’s the same old story of limerence to a married guy and got the hell out of there, and that’s what I hope I will do too the next some glimmer guy, married or not, saunters by…
Mila,
“But then you realized that it’s the same old story of limerence to a married guy and got the hell out of there”
That’s exactly what happened.
At one point … I thought: I’m doing it again.
I think this analogy is apt for the present discussion about the community being at different stages in limerence and how we all get through it different ways.
Pancakes are pancakes. But we all eat them different. I like mine topped with cottage cheese (don’t look at me like that lol) Some like syrup, honey, butter, fruit, or chocolate chips, etc. We all go about eating them the way we like but at the base of it all is the pancake; limerence.
Some of us are trying to stop eating pancakes because they are not the healthiest for us. But we don’t throw eating pancakes in the face of people that haven’t gotten away from them yet.
I think that the varied walks of life and stages of limerence we all come from is why this community is so helpful. I got the tough love when I first got here from Marcia. And I am glad I did. There was one point that I didn’t think she was going to talk to me ever again for something I posted. L.E. was there too in the beginning with logic and science. Miss Lovisa with kindness and understanding. And other people that contributed to my healing that don’t post here much anymore especially Limmy.
And of course Dr L with the blog itself. But having people to talk to help digest what Dr L posts is very helpful to recovery. I hope I can try not to be so negative about limerence. It probably doesn’t help people that reeling from the first stages of it. But it is hard not to look at my case and see it as a complete disaster to my life. Am I the same person that I was before it? No. But damn I don’t want to go through that again.
Adam,
I absolutely appreciate your view on limerence and your experiences!
But please refrain from this pancake talk😂😂i‘m supposed to stay away from sugar and this really makes me hungry:)
Adam, I’m putting a brief post here because I messed up slightly on the blog which was actually intended for spouses affected by limerence, I was slow on the uptake.
Thank you for your very kind words which I have carefully noted.
The truth about my LO connecting is this. Against the wise advice of friends here several months ago, I sent family birthday cards and then Christmas messages. These were triggering for me, even to send, and, LO being well-mannered, they were briefly acknowledged on WhatsApp.
I do need to finally stop initiating contact now, for everyone’s sake. The pain, exacerbated somewhat by my own actions, has to be controlled and curtailed from now on.
Sleep well, my friend,
f
Me, I wanted to post an update, just for myself, but the site didn’t want to post it… I take that a a sign that I should stop rambling too much about the minutiae of my LE-killing, maybe it’s for my best not to take everything apart. Having written the post helped, maybe I don’t have to see it posted.
I hope you are all well and getting on with your life, LOs pushed to the background!
Hi Mila, please try again tomorrow if you still want to share. Don’t feel under pressure to not post here ref. the minutiae. For me Coffeehouses are there for that….. anything goes, within reason (sharing plans on LwL for attaining world domination may not be appropriate 😂) . It helps us share and figure it out ourselves and with the help of others. We are all mostly trying to move one step on the right direction.
I will let you know if you get to be a bore !
Hey Mila,
Hoping all is well. I assumed it was, actually, just got that feeling when I read your post that you were doing good. Its a dynamic time for you.
“I hope you are all well and getting on with your life, LOs pushed to the background”
For me, yes, LO is kind of neutral for me right now. I don’t struggle to keep him out of thoughts as much as before. I had a nice weekend with the family, actually worked for a lot of it, and just looking forward to a calm week at work now. Have a good one, if you can. Try to do something lovely with the SO 💘
Hi Imho and Bewitched,
thanks for immediately responding!
I‘m still going strong actually.
I‘m ill at the moment and my post was about some minor details where I realized that I have to fight too negative thoughts about LO as well as positive ones- getting pissed off with him because he‘s not nice/considerate enough is only the other side of the limerence coin.
Also, I effectively shut conversation down today by mentioning my SO in texting (surprising how well I can read him- as soon as I wrote SOs name he only replied with some Emoji, as I expected) and wanted a pat on the head;)
The thing is, SO isn’t that great at being nice when I‘m ill either, of course he‘ll cook and stuff, but never some nice gesture like bringing tea to my bed or something… it’s not fun being ill with him😆and I already know that he‘ll forget Valentine‘s day and I won’t.
So, basically, I‘m not feeling well and am not feeling very amiable about both SO and LO 😄or about anyone really apart from my kids, but I guess my spirits will lift once my head gets a bit less heavy.
I just wanted to have a bit of a whine which I had now…
Bewitched, sounds like you are doing well, too, I’m glad you had a nice family weekend!
I hope you and Imho are in good health 💪🏻world domination, why actually not?
😘
Hey Mila,
I am so glad that you are still going strong.
This is very insightful “getting pissed off with him because he‘s not nice/considerate enough is only the other side of the limerence coin.”
I also recognise that my getting annoyed with my LO is just another expression of limerent over over thinking. As yours is a friend it is slightly different – but not very different – since we dont ask friends to respond like a significant other would. We discussed this before and you have progressed way beyind that thinking these days, like a higher-level awareness of what is actually happening with your own reactions.
I hooe you dont mind if I say this: Your SO might need a little encouragement this year (for 💘), if your mind has been distracted recently?
I hope you feel better soon. Sending lots of 🤗🤗🤗
Hi Bewitched,
I just realized that when I accidentally turn my phone sideways while writing, the whole post gets deleted😞
Well, I progressed in that I recognize inappropriate and futile reactions from my side much faster and don’t act on them most of the time. Like now I answer politely when he texts even when I‘m pissed off for the wrong reasons.
But I have to say, there’s no balance here again somehow. I mean, all this texting, much more frequent than with other friends, kissing Emojis (not from my side anymore!), but now that I‘m feeling unwell and could use kind words, he stopped texting, I guess because I put him off with my SO- mentioning (like „gee, you‘ve got your SO, you don’t need me“ (petulant voice, crossed arms)). I‘m glad of my other friends who are being genuinely nice without hidden agendas.
My SO is bad at romantic
stuff. I‘m sure if I would for example spring some surprise Valentines dinner reservation on him, he would maybe appreciate the gesture but wouldn’t really want to go because „he‘s got so many things to do“ .
So I won’t waste effort at that, I’ll get something nice , maybe to eat, that doesn’t require effort from his side and that’s it.
At the moment he‘s so involved in his projects that I honestly cannot feel any guilt over having had a distracted mind.
But I think I’ll suggest that we make time to do something nice the two of us, doesn’t have to be on Wednesday.
Valentine’s Day is anyway something not really traditional in my country, it came over from the States and some people don’t acknowledge it at all.
Have you planned something for Wednesday?
Dear Mila,
Firstly, thanks for the tip about the phone, its not great to lose a carefully thought-out post, and it has happened to me too!
About V-Day, like you, its an imported holiday and people here either decide to engage, or often don’t. I always think that its both silly and also an opportunity to pay attention.
In our case, we make a pact every year to either do it, or not to bother. Sometimes when it falls during a busy mid-week, we don’t bother too much. However, we have decided to do it this year, spread it out over the two weekends, last weekend and next weekend. I made a cake last weekend (the weekend just gone), and we all exchanged cards, including our daughter who had made us both a card! He got me a small bunch of flowers to make the kitchen smell nice. We are not going out for dinner because that just seems like hard work 🙂 Instead we will have a cocktail at home and I will make a nice dinner. And we will all watch a movie together.
If your hubby is very busy and distracted with projects, he would probably enjoy a non-fuss gesture, like having some nice food in, so what you are planning sounds absolutely lovely. Some people find odd things romantic, like last Friday, I solved a problem in excel, and shared with my hubby who was having the same issue. Very romantic 😆
I always think that small gestures mean a lot in a long marriage. I mean, we already do the big things very well, and maybe its nice to pay attention to little details, for the week that’ in it. Even bringing someone a cup of tea can mean a lot (a you know, on your sick bed!!!).
Anyone reading these posts who does not have an SO should totally spoil themselves, with something nice they wouldn’t usually do. Why not have a day / week in the year when you focus on those you love (including yourself).
Mile, I hope that you feel much better very soon and can continue to be so clear-sighted about everything that is going on.
“My SO is bad at romantic stuff.”
Mila
At this point in almost 25 years I am too. But yet I remembered dates and things about HER so I really have no excuse. But yesterday I was shopping at the store and I bought her a card. I hid it in my truck and am going to write in it Wednesday morning and leave it with her in the morning while she is asleep and ask her to be my valentine and ask her out on a date for that night. If she’ll say yes or not I guess remains to be seen. But hopefully she does. If she does I gotta figure out what to wear. If she will say yes I got to look my best for her. Make no doubt in anyone in the public’s mind she’s my lady. 🙂
Bewitched,
wow, you take Valentines Day much more seriously than us🙈spread over two weekends and with cards! No one here I know of writes cards, and with us it was a bunch of flowers, small present or heartshaped cookie, but actually never a real date or something.
There’s a small handmade cookie and tartelette shop here where I ordered the Valentines Special (some Valentine themed cookies etc) to be picked up the day before, I actually would have time to bake something myself, but really, I won’t make an effort when SO won’t. He will only feel bad (and he WILL forget, like every year;)
I‘m actually sometimes a bit disappointed by the lack of romance and of someone pampering me in my life , but know at the same time that SO brings all the really important stuff. Anyone can buy a bunch of red roses.
The thing is, that I like and appreciate the little gestures myself but stopped making them because there’s only so much you can do one-sided for a longer time.
He does make them from time to time, but very seldom. I still feel loved because we simply have different love languages I guess, but sometimes …*sigh
But if you think now that that would lead me back to LO, not at all. While I know that he and his SO won’t forget V Day, with them it’s more like a duty or something- it’s v day so one simply has to bake or buy something. They are great ones for rules;)
That’s not me, either.
Adam,
I think that’s very sweet!
Tell us if she consented to be your Valentine?:)
Don’t worry too much about what to wear, make sure she feels comfortable and knows what to wear herself;)
Hey Mila,
My VDay does seem a bit extreme, on reflection 🙂 But we had a tough few years as a family and this is the first year that we can move on from that. So its a bit of an unusual year, I’d say.
A “Valentines Special” cookie is nicely balanced, especially with an SO might forget!! You can enjoy it with a cup of tea. And you won’t fall too far off the no sugar wagon – bonus points for that 😉
Adam’s plans sound the most romantic of all. Go Him!!!!!
Spring is only around the corner and its a time of rebirth for all of us, if we choose it. I am reflecting a bit on that, and trying to be a better wife, especially after reading on the SO blog. It gives me pause for thought. Adversity (see above) does make me focus on what is important, so I can be grateful for the hard lessons learned. I am a work in progress, but I hope that I am going in the right direction. 🌷
Very nice posts Bewitched ! Sounds like you have much to appreciate and celebrate following some adversities.
Enjoy all those small joys this week ! You sound in a great place.
I’m also feeling reflective on the SO blog and the other exchange before. ( You know the one )
Need to pull self into the real world not fantasy world.
Mila, sorry you are ill. Hope you get well soon. Do demand hot drinks with honey and comforting words are delivered to your bedside immediately!
To answer your previous question I’m the other INF ! No surprise there. Seems a whole bunch of us here fit into these two types!
On the disclosure question you posed following Problem Child/Empowered Womans updates, I don’t know. I’m just thinking a line needs to be drawn at some point. I’m still figuring it out in a reflective somewhat melancholic place. Don’t worry I won’t do anything rash.
Best wishes
Hi Imho.
Very often I’ve had the urge to draw a line in my LEs. The thing is, one has to be absolutely sure to stick to it. And when you are in the right state of mind and sure that this is it, this is the line, then you actually don’t need any lines any more.
Don’t know if I get across what I mean. It’s the need for closure, but closure might be an illusion as long as you need it. Don’t know how to express myself, sorry.
I wouldn’t disclose as a means to force closure. It can go off in any unexpected direction and have repercussions, and it will definitely close some paths for you, you can never undo it.
I would advise against it in your case where LO is far away anyway.
But that’s my spontaneous reaction. I‘m sure you will figure something out for yourself, you are so smart and insightful.
Hi Bewitched,and also Imho,
Well, the cookies are all for him, I won’t eat them🙈 they also have a big cookie with „Selflove“ and a heart that wraps arms around itself, maybe I should have bought that for me:)and all of us!
I don’t think your V Day sounds extreme, it just sounds really, really nice.
You really sound well! I‘m still more in a „I‘m ill and the world is a bad place“mood…
LO sent suddenly a picture of his whole family including his SO, what a surprise;)
I hope to God he won’t send me a picture of what he will have baked for his wife on V day, he’s capable of that because he‘s so vain with his baking. But stop! There we go with the wrong side of the limerence coin again. No, I will be glad to receive this photo of a friend who loves his wife!👍
Dear Imho,
Lovely to hear from you. Indeed I know what you mean – these have been a few very thoughtful and healing weeks for us here on LwL.
I have been thinking about what you alluded to regarding disclosure/closure. Like Mila, I am slightly concerned that it will not have the intended effect. I think Mila’s advice about how things might play out is spot-on. In this situation, one has to be hyper aware of the sneaky, self justifying, deluded etc. limerent mind at play. Its just so hard to see the wood for the trees. And, like Mila said, if one was truly in the right frame of mind to draw a line under the LE, one should have no real use for disclosure.
As your LO is distant from you and not work-related, you have a bit more latitude than I do, say, to retain your dignity and walk away with head held high. But I’d still think about how things might feel in 12 months’ time. Any reservations you have now are important to pay attention to.
Just two cents!
Please let us know about how you are feeling if you need a sounding board (I know sharing on a public forum is – tricky).
May you feel wisdom and tranquility in the coming days….🤞🙏🏻
Thank you Bewitched and Mila. I hear you and thank you. I have re-read your comments a few times to try to fully understand and sink in.
So, I deduce that its for me to find and draw that line within myself and not do it externally, however, subtle/coded/well-meaning or whatever which would be totally selfish and exposing and I will probably regret in the future and I may not be able to sustain anyway. Yes I get it. Thank you. Difficult couple days ….don’t know why. Today I felt like LO was almost inviting/ expecting some kind of valentine gesture/funny reference from me. I resisted and sent hearts to my best friend instead. Sending you too ❤️❤️
“Tell us if she consented to be your Valentine?:)”
Mila
Yes she did. We are going to spend the night at home together. Then this weekend she agreed to let me take her out on a dinner date and then go to the store and get clearance Valentines candy lol
Imho,
„ Today I felt like LO was almost inviting/ expecting some kind of valentine gesture/funny reference from me“
Yeah, whatever, but he didn’t make a gesture himself. I‘ve got experience with this kind of LO, I tell you- hoping for a nice bit of validation but never put the effort/exposure in himself.
Mine didn’t text all day after texting a lot yesterday, I’m very sure on purpose because either 1. he feels it’s inappropriate (I hope that’s the reason), or 2. he wants me to text so he has the validation of me texting first on V day, either case I’m pretty sure he‘s aware of it.
He can do what he pleases, I won’t text for sure, neither today nor tomorrow other than answering politely if he texts.
My SO forgot Valentine’s day but my daughter reminded him yesterday evening – which led to him still not getting me anything, only working on his projects.
So since I‘m also still not feeling too well, I‘m a bit – not disappointed because I know him, but it’s actually a bit bleak that I can predict so well that I won’t get acknowledged on V day anyway..
So bleak is what I‘m feeling today.
Adam,
So good to hear that she accepted and you are going to have a proper date! Let me vicariously be happy for you❤️
And Imho,
I think it’s the right decision. You would have regretted it, I‘m almost sure…
Send you this😘!
And one for Bewitched😘
Happy Valentine’s Day, Mila! I’m sorry that your LO and SO didn’t come through for you today.
A😘for you too, Lovisa!
I know it’s a bit childish from me, but I‘m still a little bit sad- not at all because of LO, I don’t think much about that, but because of SO. He doesn’t see any meaning in V day, and that’s it. It‘s the same as that he always gives me presents for birthdays or Christmas that he likes. It‘s never doing/giving something that only I would like(like a valentines gesture).
At the same time, he shows his love in other ways. As I said, I‘m anyway not my full self after being ill, I let my mood be influenced too much by it..
Dear Imho and Mila,
Sending you both a VDay 😘😘
Our day got derailed by a family emergency but this is increasingly how (mid)life goes, now. We ended up dashing off to that – just like recent significant birthday plans – all went out the window because of health issues in the family. Its all sorted again, now, so it is fine. I am just left with a bit of an anti-climax. But you know, big stuff trumps little stuff so its ok. We are privileged to be in a position to sweat little things (nothing I like to do better than sweat the small stuff 🙈🤣)
But, I am a bit annoyed for you, Mila!! Thats frustrating as hell. Your SO will probably do something v practical and pragmatic to impress you, but no gestures, it seems.
Did he like the cookie you got him? It seems like you need to spoil yourself. Something expensive.
I read your rumination thread and happened to be tied up so could not reply. But I feel your pain. You must harden your heart a little bit, the LO will forgive you, but right now just do what it takes to get over him. He’s going to be fine for a little while. Ultimately you will be a better friend if not limerent, so the end goal justifies the discomfort. You dont always have to be perfect either. You’re allowed to have a few off-weeks, right? Nobody expects you to be perfect. You are quite hard on yourself, I think?
Imho, well done you on resisting him today. Its a bit like the lead up to Christmas, dont you think? Its all just too Loaded. I was also wondering whether I’d get a work message today but I didnt and i am glad. Because we both have SOs who deserve our attention today, of all days!!!!!
💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪❤❤ to you both.
PS Go Adam. I am so happy she agreed to be your Valentine.
Awww, love this flurry of messaging and support including Adam and Louisa !
Lovisa, best wishes to you in all that’s going on right now.
Mila, thanks ! I hope you are feeling better from your illness. yes exactly this what you wrote on LO could be proactive and isn’t, as he is expecting me to initiate. WHATEVER !
With your SO, that is a bit sad and I was wondering if when you are feeling less ill, could you maybe say to him something like … ‘valentines day is a bit of a commercial concept, maybe we can create our own romantic day together, especially as you have been working so hard on your projects recently, we deserve a special time together? What do you think ? Can you make a booking somewhere that you fancy us both going ?’ in your best sultry voice of course 😍
Bewitched, thanks again.
I wasn’t expecting this V day to be ‘loaded’ as you say. I was a bit naive on all that. I need to be more aware of these potential triggers.
More importantly I hope your family issues are okay. It sure does focus the mind right ?! I also have serious family dutiful stuff that is challenging! Take care of you.
Hi all,
you were all so nice and lovely, thank you, you really saved my day yesterday!
Of course you are right, I even tried to think it myself yesterday-I should be glad that everyone is in good health and everything going just fine. If something happened like your family emergency, Bewitched, I would have had a sudden change of perspective for sure.
I hope Lovisa, you are coping well with your own family health issues!
I think the reason why it made me overly sad was simply because I don’t feel so well. I‘m not sure if that is still the illness , I start thinking it might’ve the whole no grain- no sugar stuff. I expected to feel better with it but after almost 3 weeks I can say I don’t 😅. Maybe I need grains to be in a good mood?🙈or I’m simply not over this bug.
Yesterday I felt myself sliding down into a very depressed mood, and I have so little energy.
Could be even hormones, perimenopausal stuff.
I told my SO yesterday that we should do something nice just the two of us. Maybe we even go away for a few days in May.
My new indifference to everything and bad mood leads also to no limerent feelings whatsoever and no impulse to text LO.
That‘s a good thing, right?
Thank you all for listening to my whiny voice here!!
Haven’t heard much from ABCD lately, but I guess it’s because he‘s still going strong💪🏻!
@Adam
In the event you have nothing to wear..
http://www.menswearhouse.com
Not sure if you have any locations down your way.
This is usually my go-to place.
Just trying to help a Brother out..
Hi MJ,
Cannot open the clip, it says I’m not allowed due to server…??? Maybe because I’m in Europe?
Happy Valentine to all Limerents! The best Valentine is acknowledging you’re the most lovable person in the world, that is: lavishing in your love for yourself without being narcissistic.
My SO was diligent, he always remembers all special days. Hi got me Belgian Chocolates in a red velvet heart, and a dozen red roses. Last year he got me a diamond ring wand. It’s in him to love details. I’m not particularly that way.
I remember LO got me a perfume for Valentine when we first started
dating, and had a S.W.A.K handwritten by him. I didn’t know what it meant and I called him to explain . He told me , “ sealed with a kiss”, that was lovely.( he had the perfume delivered to my office).
These are the little things that makes me miss him.
Mila, don’t worry about SO and Valentine’s disregard for details, if it’s not a custom in your country, why would he bother? As long as he is pleasant in other occasions, like Christmas and Birthdays. We have to teach our men what we want! They’ll joyfully comply. Don’t expect them to know about every little detail we need to be acknowledged. Words that are not spoken are unknown words to them. Hope you’re feeling better.
Adam, I’m happy you still have a Valentine ! She’s precious and so are you! Cheers 🍻 to you both!
Hi Nisor,
Thanks, it is not a traditional custom here, but still the restaurants are booked fully and decorated etc, most couples acknowledge it at least a bit. It’s not that important, but it’s an opportunity to show your love in the rush of everyday hassle, and I love these little gestures, SO doesn’t, I think they stress him out, he for sure doesn’t „joyfully comply „😂
He‘s not that great on Christmas and birthdays too, to be honest, but on my birthday he does make an effort because I complained about it at the beginning of our relationship.
It’s all fine because he is a great SO in other more important ways. As I wrote, I’m just not feeling my old self at the moment due to health and these little things seem to get to me too much…
I hope you are fine and enjoyed your chocolate:)!
That reminds me, Imho, he liked the cookies, but I think honestly, I won’t bother next year…
Mila, Mila,
You need a little pampering now that you’re down and sick. You have to tell your SO you need it, be a little childish, and I think he won’t resist you. My SO is very good at pampering me when I’m sick. I domesticated him. He does it with pleasure. Try, you’ll be surprised.
Strength and courage. Hugs .
Frederico,
From the post: Dealing with limerence in marriage
“I am so very sorry that you want your last post to be deleted because I think it is clear, unequivocal and very wise.”
Thank you. I don’t mind moving my post. I didn’t read the end of the blog entry carefully enough in terms of what kinds of posts it was asking for. My bad. Although I’m not not crazy about being told by posters whose website this is not.
“The only concept I have a slight problem with is that of “chasing limerence”. In my case, for example, I guess that’s what I have been doing but the changed state of mind which comes with limerence makes that become difficult and fuzzy. It’s such a powerful thing.”
I remember your story is about becoming limerent for a close friend ? I’ll bring it back to myself, only because I think the only person whose behavior it’s fair to really pick apart is my own. As I’ve written, my LO was married, and I knew I had strong feelings for him. So instead of putting up some boundaries and backing away, I chased the limerence. If he approached me, I engaged in flirty conversation. I’d also go looking for him, planting myself in places to “run” into him, trying to be around him, trying to convey I was interested. The limerence erupted (no, I didn’t choose for it to happen), but I did choose how to act on it. I made it a million times worse. I have to take that responsibility. It’s on me.
If you ever watch Dr. John Delony on youtube (he has a radio show), I like his approach. He listens to people who call in for advice about relationships, but he doesn’t coddle them. For example, one caller had left his wife of 8 years to movie in with his affair partner. The affair partner dumped him and then … he called his wife. So, the natural response is … Are you kidding me? But Dr. John didn’t pile on him or yell at him. The caller was obviously in a lot of pain. But Dr. John did let him know he had a lot of work to do. Not on winning his wife back … but on himself. I liked his approach.
Thank you for taking the time to explain what happened to you, Marcia. I did exactly those things too and, when my LO was my neighbour, I sometimes contrived meetings.
It is all stopping now, after four years – no more excuses – which is why I find your posts helpful.
I would absolutely turn it off NOW, at this point in my life with LO3, having already learned the lessons I think I needed it to teach me. It’s stupid to be unable to stop thinking about someone I don’t even want any more. I don’t want to feel like this again about anyone else either. I’ll be single, I’ll be in a relationship, either is fine, but I don’t want to be obsessively thinking.
For that matter, I think I probably would have turned limerence off when I got into the weeds with LO2 and there was clearly no way out. But I’ll admit that the pleasure I got from that one was worth it for a while.
I’d like to respond to the blog subject “Dealing with Limerence in Marriage”. But I’m not a betrayed spouse or a married person, so my views are only based on theory. I will share these theoretical views here for people interested in theory.
First, I think the betrayed spouse will find comfort in learning that limerence is an altered state, caused by brain chemicals acting up. I.e. so much of the limerent’s attitude and behaviour can be explained by high dopamine levels/low serotonin levels. If I knew someone’s behaviour could be explained by neurochemical mayhem, I wouldn’t take that person’s behaviour too personally. I.e. I’m not to blame for the other person’s changed emotional stance toward me and hopefully this person’s changed emotional stance isn’t going to be permanent.
Second, the limerent spouse should educate themselves about limerence, because then they’ll be aware of the temptation to “rewrite history”. E.g. a limerent spouse might believe that they and their spouse were never “in love” because the start of the marital relationship never matched the intensity of LE. The limerent spouse is confusing an intense emotional reaction to someone with love. Limerence isn’t love. Limerence is a potent mix of several different things.
Third, I absolutely don’t understand limerent spouses who wish to leave their spouses to be with LO. I cannot wrap my head around this theme. Even as a (single) limerent, I’ve never seen limerence as a good justification for a relationship. I think I underestimate how many limerent spouses want to leave their (functional) marriages for an (still-somewhat-unknown, possibly flaky) LO. The excitement of passion has never weakened my own equally strong desire for stability. For me personally, at the day’s end, stability always trumps passion.
Last, I have no problem with someone saying they love BOTH their spouse and their LO. I assume the person is saying they feel deep affection/companionate love for their spouse and some kind of “romantic passion” for their LO. Romance flags in all long-term relationships. I wouldn’t be offended if a partner told me they didn’t have passionate feelings for me after several years have elapsed.
It’s true that limerents can only experience limerence for one person at the time. (If the limerent is limerent for their LO, the limerent by definition can’t be enraptured by their non-LO spouse). But nowhere in society have I ever seen the message/argument that limerence is the sole justification/reason for marriage… (Unless mating pairs are making this assumption unconsciously on their own?)
I’m reading a biography of Agatha Christie at the moment. It seems that the definition of marriage was evolving quite rapidly in the first half of the twentieth century. Middle-class people were moving away from property-based traditional marriage of the Victorian era, which were stifling at times for women, toward companionate marriages, which encouraged more equality between the sexes. Both men and women seemed to benefit from the move toward companionate marriage. (A companionate marriage is the kind two lifelong non-limerents would automatically share. Friendship would always take precedence to ardour).
However, the evolution of social ideals of marriage didn’t stop with “companionate marriage”. After companionate marriage, people started wanting marriages based on romantic passion. Then they wanted to dissolve marriages where the romantic passion had ostensibly died. The legal euphemism for a marriage devoid of desired passion: “irretrievably broken down”. Now here we are, in the early twenty-first century, still aspiring to marriage based on romantic passion, and still wondering what to do with marriage once passion has faded.
Clearly, for marriages to last the distance, the concepts of “marriage” and “romantic passion” need to be delinked from each other. Passion alone can’t sustain marriage, and the institution will increasingly falter if large numbers of people reduce it to only passion. (Very much the state of the modern world).
On the other hand, a lot of people – and I suspect many more women than men – simply can’t get in the mood if limerence isn’t very much in play. Limerence can make people leaning toward asexuality actually interested in sexuality. So, in a way, Mother Nature has set up a bit of a double bind for the human species.
Society wants mating pairs to stay together. Nature wants mating pairs to take a strong sexual interest in each other. Limerence can greatly heighten interest in and desire for sexual connection. But limerence rarely lasts more than a few years for a particular partner, meaning sexual interest in that partner will eventually dwindle. Serial monogamy is the only solution for people who want to “follow their bliss”, but it’s an extremely unsatisfying solution to people with families.
Rumination:
I notice not for the first time that I tend to see LO in a way too negative way once I manage to get out of the romantic and pink-tinted phase. It’s not a „grapes are too sour“ because I still guess he‘s limerent too, but it is a reaction that isn’t fair.
I know I used it to get out and that’s ok but now I want to see him in a neutral light again, but I have to fight annoyed reactions all the time.
It’s a bit like with LO1, he really is a difficult and annoying person, but while I defended him back in my limerence for him, now I’m riled by his bad sides more than other people.
I try to be fair and manage most of the time, but I‘m disturbed by my angry gut reaction to him or now to my current LO.
I seem to blame them unconsciously for all the hassle and pain I‘ve had, and also for my discovery that they are not all that wonderful.
This is profoundly unfair, I don’t like it.
For some reason it’s not the case with LO2, but that’s probably because that I don’t see him often, and maybe because he really is in a way the most special person of the three in the way he behaved etc.
I want to be fair and not discard every LO as annoying because of my own problems and limerence.
I really have to watch myself at the moment to stay polite with LO because he blithely keeps on texting and sending stuff I don’t want to see any more, but why shouldn’t he when I was always glad to text this way before? It’s not his fault I want to pull out of it, I‘m responsible to pull out in a kind manner.
For those who celebrate Valentines —
**********
CINQUE
– Anna Akhmatova
Autant que toi sans doute il te sera fidèle
Et constant jusques à la mort.
—Baudelaire
1
As if on the rim of a cloud,
I remember your words,
And because of my words to you,
Night became brighter than day.
Thus, torn from the earth,
We rose up, like stars.
There was neither despair nor shame,
Not now, not afterward, not at the time.
But in real life, right now,
You hear how I am calling you.
And that door that you half opened,
I don’t have the strength to slam.
November 26, 1945
Sammy I enjoyed comments 🙂
I too have been itching to respond to some of the comments the “Dealing with Limerence in Marriage” blog but am merely someone living with limerence and not an SO am not allowed it seems.
I must start by saying I really do feel for L’s SOs, their experience is clearly traumatic and their suffering is equally valid to the suffering experienced by limerents. But… I don’t sign-up to this idea that a limerent’s LE is necessarily the direct cause of years of an SOs suffering and pain. Actions taken by an L as a result of the limerence could be but not the L’s feelings alone. My reasoning…
I believe the key to emotional maturity lies in taking full ownership your own feelings and self-worth – and this applies to both SOs and L’s. From a psychological perspective, there is a separation between what happens to us and how we end up feeling as a result. The activity that constitutes this separation are our beliefs and our thoughts/mindset or what we choose to dwell on. These are often the greatest cause of human suffering, and this is true for SOs and L’s.
E.g. being dependent on a partners desire and/or exclusive love for your own self worth, the belief that if you marry someone they will never have strong feelings for anyone else over lifetime, that if an SO has feelings for someone else it must be due to a problem in the relationship or something you have done/not done, to expect desire to remain spontaneous and strong through decades of domesticity together, to believe that marriage makes your SO a sure thing and you no longer need to make an effort to attract them, a belief in “the one”, the belief that hormonal love is the same as long term companionate love, that hormonal love lasts a lifetime and if it fades the relationship must be over, the belief that an SO will make you happy, that they are all you need to in life, etc, etc.. I could go on.
It strikes me that all these false beliefs are a major cause of pain for SOs and L’s alike. Romantic movies, novels and music set us all up to suffer! I sincerely wish our western culture had much more realistic expectations of relationships and love, and that children were educated about this.
I really hope I have not offended anyone with this but fear I might well have.
Wishing you all well.
Allie 1,
I can’t agree with you more on all your points here! Your articulation has represented so well my thoughts which I could not and did not feel like posting in the other blog…. SOs would hate me more after I previously uttered, “Others’ SO is not my responsibility”…. Psychologically, no one is ABLE to be another’s responsibility, except oneself’s.
“It strikes me that all these false beliefs are a major cause of pain for SOs and L’s alike. Romantic movies, novels and music set us all up to suffer! I sincerely wish our western culture had much more realistic expectations of relationships and love, and that children were educated about this.”
Precisely!!! I just want to add one Buddhistic view: Pains are inevitable; but sufferings and optional.
Choose not to react to what is already “acted out” or to pains, mental, emotional, and psychological, one would NOT get harmed, not suffer or suffer little….
I know it’s easy said than done, I’m still practicing this hard…
Thank you for your voice!
Typo: pains are INEVITABLE; but sufferings are OPTIONAL.
You are so right! I’ve been with the same man for 30 years next spring, and you can’t expect hearts and butterflies to keep going. I expect my SO has his own little crushes; I just don’t want to hear about them. (I suspect he’s had a thing for one of our mutual friends for decades.) I’ve been limerent for others probably several times since we’ve been together, and he can be difficult to live with at times (making it easy to think about others), but here we still are. I don’t agree that limerence “isn’t love”; love is an emotion. There are different kinds of love, though. It’s not companionate love, but eros. And you can still have eros with your spouse, maybe waxing and waning over the years, but hopefully you don’t base your marriage on just that. You need more of an agape love to keep a marriage going, and that one takes work and determination. I checked, and the “love chapter”–1 Cor 13–uses the term agape. I have occasionally said that stubbornness is what keeps my SO and me together.
I had been thinking for quite a while about this question posed in this Coffeehouse chat. Honestly, I wasn’t sure which side I fell down on. I wrote a description of limerence here once that quite a few people said touched them very deeply (I have no idea where that post is). I can’t remember exactly what I said but it was something about the intensity of the emotion and feeling so much. But that was when I was just thinking of my OWN experience. I never told my SO, and never intended to, nor intended to ever betray my SO, so I left the SO reaction out of the equation. So, if I’m just focussed on me, the intrusive thoughts, obsession, guilt, feeling torn in two, the lovesickness, longing for the impossible – it was all horrible … BUT … I learnt so much, grew so much, the world felt pyschedelic, I experienced emotion that felt like this was what being alive meant … so I was seriously on the fence.
Then I read the SO perspective in the more recent post about the effect of limerence in a marriage – focussed on the SOs. After that I’m firmly in the, yes, I would turn off limerence. No, my SO did not suffer that (because I never told) but based on what the SOs are saying, they probably had an inkling, and would have at least sensed something was wrong. And the RISK. The RISK to my SO. The risk of hurting them that much! No, definitely not worth it.
What if you were single with no SO?
Little update from me:
I‘m quite successful in reducing texting to LO. Beginning on Valentines Day we haven’t texted for full 2 days which is nothing with other friends, but hasn’t occurred with LO since months (I know, I know).
Yesterday I decided to ask about his ongoing project that is coming to a head tomorrow, because that’s what I‘d do with a normal friend. He answered late and when I wrote some nice encouraging stuff (because he complained about time, pressure etc)he never answered back.
I think he‘s finally pissed off. (no, he‘s not too busy, he might pretend, but he is annoyed,I know him).
I know I should see it as progress and I know it‘s only healthy to bring it all back to a normal frequency.
It still feels like a loss and I‘m grieving somehow.
I keep reminding myself that I haven’t lost anything that isn’t a kind of illusion or is futile, and that it wouldn’t have been good if we kept on writing that much.
Still, I might have lost him as a good friend (not yet, but soon, if he sees the reduction of texts as a reduction of friendship).
I waver back and forth between telling myself I’m doing the right thing and thinking I‘m forcing it too much. Maybe it would have petered out anyway naturally?
I‘ll wish him good luck tomorrow for launching of his project and that’s it, because even if I regret the reduction I cannot suddenly text a lot after he ignored my last encouraging messages (something I wouldn’t have done ever).
I know I‘m sweating the small stuff again but as I said before, big thoughts are good and nice, but for actual progress it’s one step after the other.
I just sometimes suddenly think maybe I‘ve talked myself into the wrong way of progressing, I‘m not strong enough yet etc .
Because I notice that now I think of him much more than when we were „good“. That isn’t how it is supposed to go.
Ok I pulled myself out of it. I know it’s much better this way.
Maybe I have to accept that I cannot just turn it off like a tap, of course there will still be some work to do in my mind and that involves intrusive thoughts, but actually these thoughts always lead to the point where I see that it’s best to dial the friendship down.
Dear Mila,
I think that you are experiencing the (entirely predictable) withdrawal symptoms, nothing more.
If his text frequency goes down a bit, its a good thing. He is maybe a bit anxious, like you said, but he will adjust. You will work out a new pattern with him when things settle (a non limerent pattern). If his attachment to you is a bit anxious, as it seems to be at times (?), he is bound to need some time to adapt to the new pattern.
“I waver back and forth between telling myself I’m doing the right thing and thinking I‘m forcing it too much”
I relate to this myself because I have seen it in my own brief daily mood journal where I am up and down like a yoyo. When i feel bad, the solution is always the same, waiting, not reacting to it. It’s just a fleeting feeling.
I think you already observed it from your follow on post – and I am very glad for you 🥳
I hope you geel good today. Have a wonderful weekend. I am away with ‘the girls’ for the first time in ages. Distraction-ville here I come 🤞🤸♀️
Hi Bewitched,
when I‘m feeling benign toward him I think like you that he‘s anxious in his attachment,
when I‘m feeling less benign then I think he‘s just set in his ways and used to get his validation from me, and doesn’t like it when things don’t go the way he wants.
It’s probably a bit of both.
But when I, like you, look at past journal entries, I have to say I really need to let this go, there’s so many thoughts and agony and energy involved, it’s plain crazy.
So, all good, it has to be that way.
I‘m glad you go out with the girls, enjoy it!!
I‘m still low in energy and not too keen to see people, but there’s some event tonight we‘ll have to attend.
Bewitched, thanks for your wise advice as always, you are right,there were bound to be withdrawal symptoms, how can I expect it to just pass without any trouble.
Have a great time!!💪🏻🥂
Hi all,
I‘m a bit vexed and want to relieve it and vent a bit here.
I‘m vexed because I‘m annoyed with LO‘s SO and I don’t want to be annoyed with her, it’s a sign of ongoing limerence that I care so much how she behaves and let myself be riled by it.
I wrote a whole post about the details but I think it’s too detailed and recognizable.
She‘s just such a- don’t know an English expression. She has this notion of how things „should be done“ and sometimes tries to press it on me in a subtle but slightly reproachful way, and I hate that because I don’t agree, but for my part would never expect her to act according to my notions.
In this case, I think on her side it might be mixed with a slight anxiety about LO and me, which I should understand, but I don’t. I‘m just riled.
I think I reacted ok- she‘s not happy about my reaction (I didn’t give in in a friendly way), but that’s her problem.
My problem is that I‘m so annoyed. It shouldn’t bother me so much. I would like to be more benign and understanding towards her.
I feel that she can only rile me so much because she‘s LO‘s SO.
I know that my SO gets a bit riled about this way of hers too sometimes, so it’s nothing I only imagine.
But my problem is, with the limerence stuff and emotions going up and down it‘s really hard for me to judge if I overreact to her or if she‘s really annoying.
I don’t want that, I want to like her and not overreact to her. But I also don’t want to be told by her how to do this or that (she doesn’t tell me in so many words, but hints or acts very subtly reproachfully) in matters that are simply not her business, even if I understand that it’s got something to do with LO and me.
Now, one night in a very unrestful hotel room later, I widened out my resentment to LO himself, his fault only being not reading a text while being online several times.
I know that it’s completely random and stupid, it’s the old roller coaster.
But better in this direction than the other. I should be glad that he behaves like that, I was on the brink of getting into the rose-tinted limerence phase again.
I just wish it would stop going up and down. Texting is much more reduced, but now I think it will only be solved when he decides if he’ll come back to our work place or not. Chances are good that he won‘t, he left for family reasons that wouldn’t be solved if he stayed.
I start to wish he would stay away because it seems I cannot find my peace of mind with him and his SO.
But since we co existed at work and were non-limerent friends for ages, maybe it could revert to that once he‘s back, because there would be a stable background to all this and limerence would fade.
I feel that this up and down limerent stuff stems from this uncertainty and fear of loss. Once that‘s resolved I could free my mind better. It‘s a matter of couple of months until he has to decide, I guess.
Mila,
“But since we co existed at work and were non-limerent friends for ages, maybe it could revert to that once he‘s back, because there would be a stable background to all this and limerence would fade.”
Or seeing him in person could make the limerence worse. It’s possible.
He shows up. He’s got his skinny jeans on. He drops his pencil. He has to pick it up. And it’s all downhill from there. 🙂
Sorry … I’m being silly. But you get what I’m saying.
Ha! Marcia, you made me laugh!
I don’t think his bum in skinny jeans would be a problem, he‘s not very athletic, more the slim intellectual type..
But I know what you mean!but he will also show up, show his not so athletic bum, show his conservative side, be annoyingly stuck on details etc- to be short, also show his bad sides.
Also I would know that he‘s here for good which would mean the anxiety of losing him would vanish and I honestly think that’s what mainly triggered the limerence.
But of course it would more effectively quell the limerence habit if he moved away for good. I‘d still mourn the friendship though.
I actually miss our casual but warm friendship without limerence.
I just feel I could be more consistent in my efforts to get on a normal level with him or stop the limerent cra* if I knew if he leaves or stays, I could better decide on a course of action.
Still, I‘m now back on track now after this short wobbly episode.
I‘m so glad to be able to write here and thanks Marcia! for the picture of him picking up his pencil,suddenly my mood lifted and all doesn’t seem so grave..
Mila,
When is he going to know if he’s coming back to your work place or not? Typical LO. Leaves you dangling.
“I‘m so glad to be able to write here and thanks Marcia! for the picture of him picking up his pencil,”
Who said it was “his” pencil? Maybe you throw your pencil on the ground. 🙂
Hi Marcia,
I guess he‘ll have to decide around May, June.
Yeah, typical! I think that leaving business is the main reason why he became an LO.
I also think that I will throw his pencil on the ground, that’s the best version! If he annoys me I could sharpen mine and throw a bit harder in his direction.
Mila,
“I also think that I will throw his pencil on the ground, that’s the best version!”
Here’s what you’re going to do. You’re going to take his pencil, throw it on the ground and in a slightly playful but mostly authoritative voice say, “Pick it up.” 🙂
😂😂😂
Marcia: 👏
Very good suggestion, because he‘s not very gentlemanly and if I drop my pencil someone else will surely pick it up for me before him.
So, now I‘m looking forward to it, he’ll be astonished by the amount of pencil dropping and throwing going on around him😂
Mila,
“Very good suggestion, because he‘s not very gentlemanly and if I drop my pencil someone else will surely pick it up for me before him.”
I have to be honest: Based on this post and others you’ve written about this guy … I don’t get it. I don’t get why you’re limerent for him.
Hi Marcia,
Although that’s exactly what I want to hear, I have to be fair- I lie heavy on his negative sides here because I post here to get rid of limerence. He is socially a bit awkward, but he‘s a very sincere, reliable, faithful person, a bit shy but sweet, I think he is quite unique in never pretending. Most people wear kind of masks, to please people or to defend themselves, he‘s always the same and when he says something nice it’s always from the heart. He‘s self-deprecating and doubts himself a lot at work while being one of the very best. When there’s a crisis , work or life, he‘s calm and reassuring and helpful. He loves the simple things in life and is a very good baker, when he likes someone this person can trust him completely. He has the most beautiful smile because it’s always sincere.
I could go on, but that’s are at not what helps me actually;)
He grew up with his mother, and, knowing her, I know that much of his annoying sides come from his upbringing, and he fights most of them (for example he tries to be gentlemanly, but is not very adept).
I didn’t mean „lie“, I mean I lean heavily on his bad sides, if that is English at all
Mila,
“He is socially a bit awkward, but he‘s a very sincere, reliable, faithful person”
I don’t read all the posts, so correct me if I’m wrong, but when I’ve read some of yours, you seem to be annoyed he hasn’t responded to your texts. That doesn’t sound reliable.
And how socically awkward? I certainly don’t expect Cary Grant in the charm department, but I do give up with grown adults (children are a different sotry) when the interactions seem to require me drawing them out. The person has to meet me at least 40 or 50 percent of the way. Help me out a little. 🙂
@Marcia
“The person has to meet me at least 40 or 50 percent of the way.”
I feel the same way, or else it’s one sided relationship. And I want the person to iníciate most of the time, otherwise I’d feel I’m pushing the outcome. No.
Have a great week.
Marcia,
You have to see that we text a lot. Much too much. When I‘m annoyed he doesn’t answer, it means he strays from the pattern, it still means he will reply at some point, it doesn’t mean he‘s not reliable. This annoyance of me is not right, it‘s a sign of limerence that I care so much when and how he answers.
I really have to defend him here- he is quite introvert and passive which also annoys me sometimes (not fair from me, too), but he comes out of himself with me as much as he can, I guess.
„Socially a bit awkward“ means he has sometimes a lack of learned manner, and that he is a bit too sincere or honest sometimes. People still like him a lot, and so do I, apart from limerence.
Nisor, although I also prefer it if the man initiates more, I don’t think it’s fair to expect „the other person to initiate most of the time“. If the other person thinks the same way, you‘ll never meet anywhere;)
Mila,
“it still means he will reply at some point, it doesn’t mean he‘s not reliable. ”
Personally, I’m not a big texter and I don’t expect people to have long text conversations back and forth with me. And I know there isn’t a specific text etiquette, but I think it starts to border on rude if someone doesn’t respond within about 24 hours (48 would be pushing it). (I don’t know how long he’s taking to respond.) That’s my personal opinion. I have had friends who take a week, two weeks, maybe more. When people start doing that, I start to lose my desire to reach out as much.
“but he comes out of himself with me as much as he can, I guess.”
This is more of what I meant. Having to draw someone out.
Nisor and Mila,
“Nisor, although I also prefer it if the man initiates more, I don’t think it’s fair to expect „the other person to initiate most of the time.”
I like a man to initiate more in the beginning. Before things get off the ground. If we’re dating. To be the one to ask me out, call, etc.
In terms of friendship, it should always be reciprocal. Just because it’s a guy friend doesn’t mean I expect him to initiate more. He’s not pursuing me.
Marcia
no he‘s not that rude that he wouldn‘t reply on a text with a question in it for days. It’s more that it’s conspicuous when one of us breaks out of the established pattern, may that be texting 6 times a day or once in two days, that doesn’t matter.
Anyway, I ruminate today a lot about him, and now I‘m back to the thought that maybe I‘m completely deluded and he hasn’t noticed anything and has just friendly feelings for me, doesn’t think of me at all between texts and I’m alone in my crazy limerence.
I was just looking for an article about deluded limerents who interpret and analyze every move and text of LO fitting to their delusion…
It would surely be helpful to believe this.
Maybe the truth lies in the middle somewhere.
I think I‘m very important to him at the moment, but because he needs an anchor here at his old work/life place , he is someone who needs routines and same people, he‘s not opening up to new people easily, also he‘s a very loyal friend and sorry to lose me, I‘m sure. Add to this a bit of male/female frisson. And anxiety about his future and how he should decide.
There comes something resembling limerence, but I think he‘s much more innocent in what he wants of this limerence than I can be, or maybe you cannot even call it limerence on his side.
Sorry for the rambling, it’s all anxiety before meeting tomorrow., just ignore me🙈
Mila,
“but I think he‘s much more innocent in what he wants of this limerence than I can be”
What are you wanting from the limerence? I mean, if one or both people are with someone else, unless you have an affair, there’s nowhere for it to go. That’s just kind of the hard reality of it.
Marcia,
I know that! That’s the whole problem, sometimes I want more even knowing I can’t, won’t and shouldn’t have it, that’s the plague and pain. It’s not even that I would want an affair or anything very conscious, it’s more a craving for contact and then also an urge to touch etc.
But have to get ready now. It‘ll all be fine.
Mila,
Good luck!
Try to take deep breathes, think your LO is a piece of walking painting in a museum — you can watch it as much as you wish, chat with it in your head, but you can’t touch it or “own” it, it’s not for “sale or rent” in your case…. 🫂
Mila,
“it’s more a craving for contact and then also an urge to touch etc.”
I’m probably not the best person to respond on this topic. I’m single so I’m looking at it differently. I didn’t contact my LO outside of work but inside of work, he was touchy-feely, holding my hand, etc. And it frustrated me over time. I wasn’t interested in operating within the bounds of what he didn’t consider cheating.
It’s one of the reasons I finally went NC. I was always longing for more. I finally had to accept that this was all I was going to get … and rip the band-aid off and move on.
“I wasn’t interested in operating within the bounds of what he didn’t consider cheating.”
I don’t think any LO in the end does either. When clear boundaries are in place and it is clear that the limerent is just skirting the line, unless the LO is just interested in the attention given them I would think that they would move on. I dunno I skirted the line myself. Lying I was just being friendly. And maybe the LO actually has a normal platonic relationship with the limerent and takes themselves out of the picture to save the limerent from themselves.
Either way it’s gonna be a stumbling mess of a dance when both the limerent and LO can’t make themselves clear in their intentions and/or expectations. The LO is vague to the married limerent and the married limerent only intends to take as far as the LO will allow. At least that’s the way it seems it went for me.
Adam,
“The LO is vague to the married limerent and the married limerent only intends to take as far as the LO will allow.”
I mean … it’s different, depending on the dynamics.
Sometimes the married limerent will only take it so far. But within the LO-limerent dynamic, one person is usually holding all the cards in terms of deciding how far it goes. And to be honest, since that person wasn’t me, that power dynamic started to get really old.
Marcia
„I didn’t contact my LO outside of work but inside of work, he was touchy-feely, holding my hand, etc. And it frustrated me over time. I wasn’t interested in operating within the bounds of what he didn’t consider cheating.“
Yes, I would have reacted the same.
I don’t mean I really want LO to get touchy-feely , I just feel the urge to get closer, get some physical contact and even more, but that’s not what my head wants and it’s not what I think is good for any of us.
If he started to get touchy feely without wanting to talk about it or expecting me to put up with it and not consider it cheating, I would be taken aback.
No, that‘s the paradox here, I want to touch him and don’t want it. If it wouldn’t be in this stupid way I wouldn’t need to ramble on here…
Mine was similar it’s just the roles were reversed. IF she, being single, had wanted it to move forward I wouldn’t have. I had no interest in an affair or going through divorce. So I can from the other side of the fence see your frustrations with your LO.
He acted out your dynamic the “safe way”. Like you said what he didn’t think was cheating. Though I find touching and hand holding very close to cheating. Or at least heading in that direction. One of the reason why there was no touch between us and no outside of work contact. I was playing it safe in my own way too. But I think unlike your LE there was not an inkling of anything else but co-workers from her. She didn’t lead me on like your LO did you. If anything I was leading her on.
Mila,
“I don’t mean I really want LO to get touchy-feely , I just feel the urge to get closer, get some physical contact”
It’s kind of the same thing, no? 🙂
“No, that‘s the paradox here, I want to touch him and don’t want it.”
And this is why I now stay away from married or partnered people, aside from the ethicial concerns. You don’t know what you want. 🙂 I get it. You’re torn. But it’s just too much … stuff, drama. However you want to define it.
Adam,
“IF she, being single, had wanted it to move forward I wouldn’t have. ”
And, to be honest, when mine made that same decision, I resented him for it.
“I had no interest in an affair or going through divorce.”
I didn’t want him to leave his wife. Just have an affair. Yes, I can hear myself. 🙂
Miss Marcia
Being through limerence and almost out of it completely I learned two things to guard myself against future episodes. Things I couldn’t see while in limerence
1. LO reminded me of someone in my past that I met before my wife that I think I might actually have been limerent for. But if not I was head over heals for her. I shamelessly pursued her. She was someone I had grown up with and as I grew into a man I saw her as more than a friend. Unfortunately after a few months of me giving her attention, compliments and gifts she finally said she couldn’t see me as more. Couple that with flicking on that “hero complex” of mine and I didn’t have a chance.
2. Most importantly it happened because instead of trying to work on our marriage which seemed to have fizzled and we were more roommates than husband and wife; I sought the attention of another woman to make me happy.
Hopefully I can make better choices if this same 1-2 combo of a woman ever comes around.
Adam,
This all sounds really good. You’re trying to determine what your triggers are so you don’t become limerent again.
Besides that, you’ve diclosed to your wife and you’ve gone NC. If I had a husband who became limerenct for someone else, I don’t think there’s anything else I could ask him to do. I applaud your efforts.
Hi Mila & Marcia,
I am appreciating the lightness of touch here, Marcia “Or seeing him in person could make the limerence worse. It’s possible.
He shows up. He’s got his skinny jeans on. He drops his pencil. He has to pick it up. And it’s all downhill from there.”
😆
But not all LOs are created equally, in the ‘skinny jeans’ department. Our LOs are all middle aged, if I am not wrong? Hmmm. I must admit that I have seen my LO in shorts and – woah. That was a tough thing to ‘unsee’. And I mean in a good way 😭.
@Mila, I was reading the ‘Tolerance versus Respect’ blog on here the other day and, ever since, I have been seeing everything through that lens (that is a bit of an over-reaction on my part, as usual). But I wondered whether it might give you something to use in your feelings about your LO’s SO? She seems like she falls a little bit on the ‘Respect’ side of that dichotomy, whereas you are more in the ‘Tolerance’ side. I have always been very anti being told what to do, it really sets me off. So I get where you are at. I would never dream of telling someone else what to do!
This is all part of my own neurosis, of course. Like, for me, I can’t believe that I need so much validation from outside sources. The extrinsic locus of control – Why is that? It’s vexing to me.
I will update on my own progress with my LE very soon, I am going through a period of reflection and need to gather my thoughts before putting them down. Journaling is helping me, I think. If only because I have such a shocking memory recall, whereas putting it all own (only 3-4 lines a day) and reading it back is very helpful.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/tolerance-as-a-protection-mechanism-against-limerence/
Bewitched,
“I must admit that I have seen my LO in shorts and – woah. That was a tough thing to ‘unsee’. And I mean in a good way 😭.”
See? Shorts. Skinny jeans. It’s a slippery slope. 🙂
I’m not really a fan of skinny jeans as a general rule. But my LO could probably have gotten away with them. Had a body like a weasel. 🙂
Hi Bewitched,
Sounds as if you work on your LE. I used to journal a lot about my LEs and it definitely helps. Recently I switched to posting here, as I said it seems to clear my head when I have to translate into English.
I’d be very curious to hear about your developments when/if you’ll be ready to share!
Thanks for the link!
I read the article and after overcoming a confusion about the meaning of respect (for me, it was basically the same as what he described as tolerance. I can respect another opinion without sharing it.) I agree that I might be more tolerant than his SO. I know that she mostly means well, but she comes from a culture where rules and behavior are very important, it‘s ingrained in her whole being. Sometimes I forget that because she‘s in my country since childhood, but her upbringing is still very alive in her. I should cut her some slack and I think I could do that better if not for the whole limerent situation.
Now I‘m back to a slight resentment towards her and LO as a unity (both being a bit rigid in their views) which is maybe only for the best, limerencewise.
Since he only replied with Emojis on my last text (shown as banner on the screen) I just haven’t read them and won’t.
He will come and work at his old/ my workplace next week. This will be interesting. I surprise myself with my mood these days, I might be happy to see him and work with him or I might be suddenly gripped by resentment and avoid him.
Maybe I should decide on a course of action. I do want to be friendly and professional and enjoy the week since it is an interesting project overall. If I give in to resentment I will regret it and suffer, I know that in advance.
Friendly and not avoiding him but also not initiating anything would be good.
Gosh, hold your thumbs please, people, that it will go reasonably well without limerence flaring up or any emotional drama.
I will drop his pencil and report if his backside is up to standard!
Hey Mila,
“Gosh, hold your thumbs please, people, that it will go reasonably well without limerence flaring up or any emotional drama.
I will drop his pencil and report if his backside is up to standard!”
OMG, I am crying here… you haven’t lost your sense of humour, then!
Seriously, you have a very testing situation, Mila. So much contact. Wow. I am really, really, really, happy that the texting has come under your control. This is amazing progress. Everything else will follow in good time. When he finally makes his decision, for instance. You are becoming like Speedwagon, beginning to wish that he would leave the job definitively.
I am also flip flopping like crazy over my LO. He’s an angel / devil. Or more accurately, since I should say something less extreme, he is pleasant / an eejit.
I totally get where you are at but acknowledge that you have got it harder than me, with my very minimal contact, all work related ….
Almost missed your post, Bewitched!
Yes, I also had to think of Speedwagon here. But my ideal is still to get back to a normal friendship with him, not to go completely NC. Not an intense friendship, more nice and casual. I gave up the notion to keep him as best friend, now I just want a friendly atmosphere, regular contact but not too often, and no intrusive thoughts in between.
No idea if I‘ll ever get there.
Meanwhile I‘ll follow my old strategy to behave as if that goal is already reached.
I think it would be best reached if he went away for good, to be honest.
If he stays, there will certainly be prolonged struggle with annoyance and pain , but even then it’s reachable. Only this uncertain state is really unbearable.
Maybe your LO is just that mixture, a pleasant eejit?;) mine definitely is.
“But not all LOs are created equally, in the ‘skinny jeans’ department. Our LOs are all middle aged, if I am not wrong?”
LOL, yeah, mine seems to like his culture’s cooking a bit too much…. It’s a lot harder to find 50-somethings who should be wearing skinny jeans. 😉
Serial Limerent,
how is it going with your LO, skinny jeans or not? I remember that he showed some mutual signs but only in secret? Has he stopped that sneaky stuff?
I also wonder how Imho is doing! Still struggling a bit, like me in the last days? (By the way, I have to report that ignoring LOs texts always leads to him making more effort. The old dance.)
And ABCD, if he‘s still strong?💪🏻and Problem Child?
Hope they are all well and have no reason to post because they are purposefully living without needing the site!
The only time I saw LO’s zero-fat long legs in shorts after a fresh shower was when he came to my hotel room in that European capital city, and I was surprised and questioned (didn’t grow up in the West), why he was not in his usual, long trousers 🙃…. Later, whenever he had his tight (not skinny) black jeans on with a shirt/short sleeves buckled in, I knew he’d go to his afternoon rendezvous…. Oh, the biological vanity! 😇
@Mila: Well, he hasn’t repeated the thing that got me upset, and while I thought he was going to start pushing me into a SA, he hasn’t been. He’s also been gone a lot, went on vacation with his SO, and last week made a lovey post about her on Facebook (argh, didn’t want to see that). So while I know there are some mutual feelings there, possibly limerence, so far we’re still at the level of church-flirtation. Which I’m fine with–keep it light and fun. I don’t like the guilt.
Serial Limerent,
I‘m glad you didn’t slide headlong into a PA, I think it’s best that you both keep your hands still, isn’t it?
Good to hear from you!
Dear Marcia,
“I’m not really a fan of skinny jeans as a general rule. But my LO could probably have gotten away with them. Had a body like a weasel. 🙂”
Ha ha, I get the picture. My husband is like that, maybe a bit more boney (like a greyhound?). He doesn’t wear skinny jeans as he doesnt want to draw attention to his lean-ness. I also think that it takes a certain amount of attitude to pull off skinny jeans as a guy. I mean the younger ones do it, but in an older guy, I gotta say, anything that fashionable makes me suspicious. I like understated better, hahaha. I am all for the hairs peeking out beneath the cuff, or the veins on the lower arms/hands.
It follows that I have to be understated myself. I am so boring!!!! But I think a good fit on any garment works wonders.
Actually, that reminds me, I want to hear about Adam’s date night, what he wore, what momma wore, etc!!!
Bewitched,
“He doesn’t wear skinny jeans as he doesnt want to draw attention to his lean-ness. I also think that it takes a certain amount of attitude to pull off skinny jeans as a guy. I mean the younger ones do it, but in an older guy, I gotta say, anything that fashionable makes me suspicious.”
Honestly, I don’t like them on anyone. They’re so tight, they look the person is wearing nylons or tights and forgot to put on their pants.
Grown men really need to stop wearing skinny jeans. Those are for teens and boy bands not grown men lol It’s the equivalent of grown women still wearing uggs. There are much better fashion statements to make.
I asked her in the morning when she would want to go so I could get dressed and she told me not to dress up too much. She said this is just a casual thing we were going to do. So I wore my (I’m somewhat color blind) pair of brown mustard/dark gold chinos with black belt and a burgundy/dark red button down collar shirt. My bracelet I always have on, watch and white fedora. Too warm that day to wear my wool black fedora. Though I think it would have favored the look a bit better. Momma wore a nice pair of blue jeans (she usually lounges around the house in sweats) and a nice red and black, not really sure what kind of shirt to call it. Maybe something close to a man’s Henley?
We went to the shopping mall. We went in a few women’s clothing stores and I tried to convince her to buy a corset-shirt and short short skirt combo but she wasn’t buying it. Literally. *shrugs* I tried. I mean I told her she could just wear it for me and not out in public. 😉 Then there was the bell bottom jeans. She wasn’t having that either. Or I guess as they are called “flare legged” to the younger generation. Why don’t they make “flare legged” jeans for men? I’d rock those. We looked at some jewelry too if I remember right. Then we went to a bar&grill and ate lunch. I sat on the same side of the booth as her. We had a nice time eating and talking. She let me put her arm around her when we talked. She put her hand on my thigh at one point. 😉 It was a nice leisurely time. I had a couple of beers with my meal and then when we were done we stopped at the store to pick up prescriptions and do some food shopping before we went home. Then we had a few hours alone together before our youngest got home from school. Good time all around.
„Grown men really need to stop wearing skinny jeans. Those are for teens and boy bands not grown men lol“
Well, my teenage daughter says skinny jeans are a no go for her for both boys and girls, she‘s all into baggy 🙂
So even teens are not united in their view of skinny trousers…
Sounds like a relaxed date of two fashionable persons,Adam! Glad you had a nice day!!
Awwww, I love it! Good for you, Adam.
Hi Mila. A week ago I prepared a reply here but my battery saver kicked in and somehow lost what I had written, and didn’t have energy at that moment to start again. I came later and somehow feel I missed the boat. The lwl community had departed and I was still dockside. Funny isn’t it.
Sorry to hear you are a bit up and down. friends and especially coupled friends will all have some annoying traits, ( and that comes out especially if you spend too much time with them.)
Also, agree, best not to list LOs good traits I find ! Mine is a long list , now you ladies here have added yet another one of looking great in slim jeans! Ha ha …
I agree sincerity and competent yet self depreciating is so very attractive, my LO is like this too.
For me, I was doing ok, but lots of triggers since I last messaged. He sent me THAT emoji, you know the one. And a group of people are going to meet at an event, he is going but I didn’t make the cut. So feelings of missing out, envy, jealousy, relief. It’s a mix of contradicting emotions which my executive brain is trying to tell me not to be so ridiculous!
Imho,
„ The lwl community had departed and I was still dockside. Funny isn’t it.“
I know that feeling, and that’s the point where I simply plop a new rumination post in the last Coffehouse, just for myself🙈
Ha, he sent THE Emoji? Do you think he did it on purpose? Actually I do have two or three male friends who use it without any special importance, only with LO it’s got a meaning, so it’s hard to tell, I guess.
I totally understand about the feeling of missing out, but you‘ll probably not miss out on that much (brain enlarges these events where one can’t participate to once-in-a-lifetime great events, but much more likely it‘s just like every other, and since there are a lot of people maybe you wouldn’t get to talk to him that much?) and second, although it sounds stupid, you spare yourself a lot of emotional up and down before and during, being anxious what to wear, how to behave, whatever , and in the end realizing that it’s all futile because nothing will ever happen (hello Bewitched) and he will just show you pictures of his SO and family again..?
Well, last phrase sounds as if it would be actually be a good thing if you would go.
What I mean is, it might help to really examine why you‘d like to go, what you secretly hope would be happening- intense talk, warm feelings, eye contact- and what would be the consequence of that? Only that you are deeper in limerence. But since there cannot be a happy outcome of this limerence since you both have SO and family, it would be worse for you afterwards. So better skip that wave anyway!
Dear Imho & Mila,
Mila, I think you were right first time when you said to Imho that:
“I totally understand about the feeling of missing out, but you‘ll probably not miss out on that much (brain enlarges these events where one can’t participate to once-in-a-lifetime great events, but much more likely it‘s just like every other, and since there are a lot of people maybe you wouldn’t get to talk to him that much?) and second, although it sounds stupid, you spare yourself a lot of emotional up and down before and during, being anxious what to wear, how to behave, whatever , and in the end realizing that it’s all futile because nothing will ever happen (hello Bewitched) and he will just show you pictures of his SO and family again..”
And then you drive your self crazy with ‘why is he showing me pics of his SO and family – is that significant?’
I am nowadays viewing these f2f events are another opportunity to get onto the roller coaster. But, despite that, I still can’t seem to face coming up with an excuse not to go (in my case, they are work). You are definitely dodging a bullet, Imho. I wanted to share my very frustrating experiences over the past few weeks…
I’ve been saying how my journal has been such a revelation in my up and down feelings. When I was in a ‘down’ phase back at the end of January, I actually experimented with very consciously not thinking about him at all. I also stopped posting on here about him so much and instead spent time thinking about everyone else’s case. My trajectory went something like this: the intrusiveness of him popping into my head gradually went down, although this seemed to be making me slightly depressed. Later on, I began feeling more numb – still thinking about him more than I should but less extreme feelings, no highs or lows, which was a relief but also quite dull. This continued for maybe a week. I had a few dreams with him in them, they were quite vanilla and did not derail me. Then on Valentine’s Day, I was struck by a mental image of him, very very physically attractive to me and was pining all day (I felt annoyed by that). That only lasted for 24 hours – thank goodness. The next phase of my loopy journey was another experiment where I tried to conjure up the old euphoria with some pleasant memory curation – I was having a tough week for reasons I wont go into – to not much avail. My mind actually wandered while trying this. I felt – Great! I am over him! I had also made lists of ‘pros’ and ‘cons’ how we were/were not compatible and was able to coolly do so because I was feeling so balanced.
Bear in mind, that we have had work contact all through what I described above, but it was virtual.
But – here is the thing – I have been at this stage before and it all came crashing down after seeing him. When I see him, all my physiological systems go berserk, I feel weak, like I could fall down, distracted, super-sensitive. After a week of being around him, I spend months recovering.
Imho, you are better off not seeing your LO, tough it may feel hard, so hard. I am a terrible person because, I could probably make an excuse and not go to the f2f work thing, but I know I wont. How crazy is that?
Ugh Bewitched,
now I‘m scared of the week ahead where we‘ll meet daily and work together, starting on Tuesday.
Although there‘s a good chance that we both might get ill again or one of us, I feel something coming up and he too- since he left he‘s actually very prone to get ill (I think it’s because of all this uncertainty and stress).
So, fate might intervene once again.
But I hope very much not. I‘m looking forward to it actually, not because of limerence, but because he‘s a pleasure to work with and it would maybe be the last time. But I already prepare mentally to not seeing him…
I‘m sorry to hear about your up and downs that sound uncannily like my up and downs! I also had these calm but dull stages. Even when I saw him at this group event, I didn’t feel much beyond awkwardness and a bit of resentment, but when I saw him one on one the shield broke again, although even that was still ok- I had more problems the last week when I didn’t see him at all. I think in my case the ups and downs have much more to do with my own mental or hormonal or whatever state.
I never made lists though. Don’t give me ideas. Also, I don’t think you are a terrible person. What good would it do to avoid him since you have to work with him anyway? Or do you think that would reduce the limerence? I somehow doubt it, it’s not the same as cutting all contact, you would still get the emails and think about him?
Thank you Mila and Bewitched !!
your inputs are so helpful. I would dread and look forward to the event in crazy cycles, like last time. It would be exhausting. It would be a great event and I think we would spend time together for sure,unless he gets a new younger female friend 😀!
So yes some relief but I would like to go, others I like are going too. of course its always the thought I may not see him at all this year or ever again that fuels my uncertainties and limerence.
Bewitched you said
“I could probably make an excuse and not go to the f2f work thing, but I know I wont.” You are not a bad person. I would of course be the exact same. And then the recovery period afterwards this is the challenge for sure. I understand the cycles you describe of being over it and getting good but life seems so dull and then crashing down especially after f2f.
Valentines day completely caught me by surprise too, as normally I’m not bothered, but very similar experience for me that you had too. Crazy !
Mila, to be fair he doesn’t show pics of his SO often, its mostly himself ! Ha ha
That emoji was probably a nod of acknowledgement that he likes my admiration. Maybe a bit the other way too. Like you say, we never really know. He doesn’t use it often so it has more meaning when he hits it.
So big week ahead for you. Maybe it will be like you used to work with him and take you back to pre-limerence zone. I do hope so. Can the cat be put back in the bag after it’s been released though ?
( Just in case not familiar to you ”Letting the cat out of the bag” is a colloquialism)
Also more importantly, I hope you dont get ill again.
Wishing you both health, happiness and strength for the week ahead !
Imho,
I managed to delete my post to you two times by turning my mobile.
You could say that your question is the big neon headline of my current LE:
„Can The Cat Be Put Back In The Bag“!
That’s the main riddle here…
There is a similar expression here, but it has a slightly different meaning.
I did my best to convince you that you shouldn’t feel sorry for not going, but I have to admit that I’d most probably be disappointed too, it’s natural. Why can you not go? They didn’t pick you or something? Are they stupid?
I still think there are advantages of not going. As I said, lots of emotional stress spared.
I thought he‘s in another country? Is the event in his country? Or maybe I’m mistaken.
Thanks Mila, Happy Monday. I’m honoured you persisted to retype me a message a 3rd time !
Its like a reward trip for top performers across the world at my company. Only select few from each division go to a nice country with special event etc. sadly I can’t share more details on here. It’s ironic that maybe my limerence is one of the reasons that I wasnt performing at my best in recent months, which is needed to be in with a chance to be selected. I will never know of course, as it’s very difficult to be selected even when you are performing really well. LO is a superstar at his job it seems. Another thing to add to his list of attributes – very annoying. Ha ha !
I suggest you take an extra large bag to work tomorrow 😺
Imho,
I see, it’s not a single evening but a whole trip.
Of course it would have been nice. I bet you‘ll make the cut another time!
You know, I’m not religious and not esoteric, but I sometimes wondered in my case if fate wants to tell me something, or if it’s even myself who unconsciously plays fate. All the sicknesses (his, my kid’s, mine etc) preventing LO and me to meet for example since he left work, or his or mine SO unexpectedly being there etc.
In my last LE I was in a similar situation, LO2 was leaving work and town.
I hurt myself accidentally so I couldn’t work for the whole last weeks that he was still at work, including a trip. I was devastated at the time (apart from LO business, there was chaos at work because of it). I wondered if fate pulled the emergency brake so I couldn’t do something stupid, or if I even hurt myself because my unconscious self wanted to hinder me.
That doesn’t have to be true, also not in your case, and I don’t really believe it, but a small part of me wonders sometimes…
You really think you performed worse because of the LE? I don’t think so, but I cannot know of course. Maybe it would be an incentive for you to end the LE if you thought so, but otherwise I’ve got the feeling that you are such a capable person that you would perform well anyway. But I’m in no position to judge, of course, not knowing you or your work.
Well, I‘ll bring big bags, pencils and whatnot to work tomorrow! Now I‘m rather looking forward to it because I’ll have to think of you lovely people a lot!
Hey Mila & Imho (&Snow &Marcia),
Well I also lost a reply that I had all typed out earlier, due to a knock on the door. This seems to be happening to all of us ‘butterfingers’ at the moment 😀 Are we losing our cool?
Well, all I wanted to add was three short things: First, to Imho, I am so glad that this wasn’t a social event that you had been left out of. At least its ‘only’ work. That’s great as I think being left out of a friendship or social thing would have been hard to reconcile. Secondly, your LO still ‘performed’ and wasn’t impaired by what you both have going on, Imho. So this is a sign, I believe, that he is able to compartmentalise more than you. This is what I tell myself about my own LO when I want to disengage from him and I am dealing with his virtual interactions. In fact, its one of the reasons that I fare so badly f2f because then I can see that he is a mess with my own two eyes which is fairly endearing, I have to say.
Mila, I am crossing all fingers and toes for you to maintain decorum, calm, dignity (!!) tomorrow and for the rest of the week. I just want to remind you that you have been doing absolutely great on the texting. That is fantastic progress. LiS’s post earlier on attachment styles and anxiety were very instructive, don’t you think? I think maybe I have an anxious streak. Since our up and down cycles are so similar, maybe you do too?
Sending many warm wishes and virtual hugs!
P.S. I also want to send a virtual hug to Marcia and Snow because I realise from reading their posts that I have/had a narcissist in my life, but more on that subject anon….
Hi Bewitched,
we‘ve texted a lot today due to comparing signs of illness 😆and also already work stuff, so it won’t be such a big step to see him tomorrow.
I‘m still not feeling very well which prevents me from getting nervous or anything.
I always enjoy LiS posts and take a lot from them, but this time, I don’t know much about attachment styles, I have to say.
I tried to take a quiz on attachment styles but quit at the questions about caretakers etc. I mean, I could rely on my parents , but now they are so old that of course I won’t burden them any more with my stuff etc? So where do I make my cross then, since it seems to influence the result significantly?
I took it anyway and got a result of disorganized-fearful-avoidant or something that I couldn’t quite agree on…
By the way, my LO1 had/has definitely narcissistic traits..
@Imho, Mila, Bewitched,
Sorry to hear about roll-coaster you ladies are all riding about and I can feel where you are, since I have been there before…
I just want to ask, what do you all do with your physical workouts or exercises, particularly when such a huge, limerence stress comes and goes? What are your ladies’ Hobbies?
Mila, how is your running going?
I’m thinking about what kind of psychological exercises could be tried in your scenarios, in which I was as well….
Snow,
Running is not going well, since I was ill I didn’t go and now I feel getting ill again (or the last virus never left me🙄). At the moment I’m only doing some very light core/pelvic floor stuff and stretches in the evening.
Mila,
That’s good. As long as you do something that could contract your muscles, anywhere in body. Stretches are really helpful for blood and Qi circulate, keep them up! 👏
I wish you feeling less sick/ill; I feel it might have something to do with your stressful/anxious situation with LO — his and your texting… and your back & forth LE craving — wanting more than you could get and more beyond your control….😞
You have all my sympathy and empathy. I was there before; even my bones know what it feels like… 🫂
I’m getting ready to coach my Romeo, my content will rest on teaching and enjoying his present learning, nothing more, nothing less… ☺️
Snow,
“I’m getting ready to coach my Romeo, my content will rest on teaching and enjoying his present learning, nothing more, nothing less… ”
When he shows up for his lesson … DROP YOUR PENCIL. 🙂
Marcia,
There is nowhere to drop anything since I sit on his glass dining table, sideway (side chair) reading/learning the materials on his laptop and my ipad. But like the last time, I used his nice fountain pen to write class notes on his paper notebook (supposedly in our shared google doc), leaving my sloppy handwriting there. ✍️
Calmly checked this time: not any ring on any figure; spotless, “dust free” and nothing visible downstair in the bathroom and on kitchen counters; the whole living room looks like a spacey, hotel room with a huge set of bulky, grayish sofas beyond the open kitchen (looking unused). Only framed painting reproduction hanging on the walls.
I still can’t tell if it’s a home of a straight or gay man (LO#5’s studio looked like an indoor garden). He’s from the south, his gentle and sweet smile still “kills”…. His face also looks like Eddie Redmayne, whose aura/air in “the Danish Girl” was carried by all my major and most of minor LOs — not your Butler type. But his arm and chest muscles are a result of moderate workout. 😀
Well, Marcia sister, that’s my report on the second time teaching my pupil, Romeo, still not a LO.
Marcia,
I still see LO’s/the Phantom’s expressions on Romeo’s face, but not the other way around (will be in LO’s class in a few hours to check)
I wonder if this is neurochemical related❓
Snow,
“I still can’t tell if it’s a home of a straight or gay man (LO#5’s studio looked like an indoor garden).”
Hmmm …. have you used the bathroom and checked the medicene cabinet for things like makeup or prescriptions with someone else’s name on them? 🙂
“He’s from the south”
“The South” in the United States? Does he have an accent and say things like “I do declare …” I’m being silly. 🙂
“his gentle and sweet smile still “kills”…. His face also looks like Eddie Redmayne, whose aura/air in “the Danish Girl” was carried by all my major and most of minor LOs”
Oh, ok. I know who he is. He’s not my type but I have been known to like a more feminine-looking guy in my time.
” not your Butler type. ”
That’s the type I’d like to experience. 🙂
“But his arm and chest muscles are a result of moderate workout.”
That sounds good. I’ve never been into bulkier dudes. These guys who look like they work out all day long … not my type.
“Well, Marcia sister, that’s my report on the second time teaching my pupil, Romeo, still not a LO.”
It sounds like you had a good session. When is your next session? For the next session, I’d recommend making the directions for the homework kind of vague … so he has to contact you about them! 🙂
Snow,
“I still see LO’s/the Phantom’s expressions on Romeo’s face, but not the other way around (will be in LO’s class in a few hours to check)”
Not sure what you mean.
So … he ‘s in your class and you tutor him separately?
Marcia,
I’m tutoring Romeo outside my work. I’m taking LO’s class, as one of his students, at my work.
Seeing LO’s expressions and smiles on Romeo’s face; they share similar aura; however, I don’t see Remeo’s expressions on LO’s face. The former is a lot younger than LO.
So, people from the South say „I do declare?“
Amazing, I learn all sorts of stuff here:)
Isn’t that from „Gone with the wind“?
Marcia,
Romeo is just a crash for now, so I don’t call him a LO. I tutor him at his home, completely outside my work.
LO is LO#7 (of 7 years), a colleague, to him I’ll have to say goodbye permanently in May due to our shared laid-off misfortune, which is dreadful to me. I’m auditing his class for the last time (took one 5 years ago) for a subject I’m highly interested — Religion & Media, which allows me to learn about Western culture.
A cliche: when a door is closed, another window might open…
Mila,
I have encountered some guys from the south at various venues, they’re very courteous and soft to ladies, much less cynical like the Northerners.
Marcia, Mila,
I’m sitting in LO’s class right now. He’s allowed me to take pictures and videos of the class if I wish… some snap shots of his lecturing looked so awful; some highly entertaining or inspiriting….
He gets a bit annoyed if other students and i are on our electronic devices while he talked logistic stuff.
With Romeo’s sweet, focused eyes directly on my coaching, it’s hard to keep myself not to wonder to anywhere else… but the word “LwL” flashed in and out…
Snowphoniex
For the most part Southern men are taught proper manners and the right and wrong way to address women. However while I am a Southern resident now I was born a damn yankee (Northern) but my father taught me the same things. And I passed that on to our two sons. One of the reasons why I address Miss Lovisa the way I do is because she has been very helpful to me and I consider her a friend. Now Marcia, who I consider a friend too, I don’t think would take kindly to the “Miss” but I could be wrong. It’s hard to feel out whether some women don’t mind, actually like it, or don’t like it but won’t say anything. Especially when only interacting online.
First time I met LO in person (had only talked to her on the phone before) it was clear by her facial expression and body language she didn’t like the Miss so I dropped it. While all my other female colleagues I use the Miss for and have gotten no negative feedback.
“Hmmm …. have you used the bathroom and checked the medicine cabinet for things like makeup or prescriptions with someone else’s name on them?
I used twice the bathroom downstair, for the studio living room openly adjacent to the gala (?) kitchen. I got too scared to slide open the mirror (he might hear it outside), feeling like a thief. It looked having nothing else except a big hand towel.
“He’s from the south”
“The South” in the United States? Does he have an accent and say things like “I do declare …” I’m being silly.
Yes. I can’t tell much of his TN accent. I haven’t heard any phrase like that. I’ll pay attention from now on. He’s a bit shy, eager and determined to learn well in this course. (Apologized for not have done the last week’s HW)
“That sounds good. I’ve never been into bulkier dudes.”
I can’t stand the bulky muscle type. I could not see Romeo’s muscles at all in our first class when he had a long sleeve shirt. This time, he had a short polo and sweater pants.
“It sounds like you had a good session. When is your next session? For the next session, I’d recommend making the directions for the homework kind of vague … so he has to contact you about them! “
I tutor him every Monday evening for one hour. We don’t have each other’s phone #, due to the policy of the agency. But of course, if students want, they could give me a number (a middle-aged single father did). So far, I use shared Google doc to leave homework and class notes, which agency’s owner could see. During an emergency, I contact her to reach my students, vice versa.
At this movement, LO is presenting and discussing “Matrix” (trilogy), my kind of movie — I’m leaning to take the Red pill, despite it’s depressing…
Adam,
I like courteous southern mannerism, because men in my COO, even very educated, are mostly macholy “coarse”.
For now, I keep reminding myself that Romeo’s gentility and sweetness are just a part of his Southern manner, so I don’t over read anything from his expressions, which does not say anything else at all. We limerents tend to read/fuss something out of nothing from (potential) LOs.
Despite I often talk and behave like a“Tomboy”, I don’t mind to be addressed as “Miss”
Adam,
“Now Marcia, who I consider a friend too, I don’t think would take kindly to the “Miss” but I could be wrong”
No, I’d love it. I love the Southern man’s gallantry. And I agree with you that Southern men are taught manners with women in a way Northern men are not.
But don’t EVER call me mam. I HATE it. 🙂
Mila,
“So, people from the South say „I do declare?“”
Not really. I saw Alec Baldwin on a talk show. And he did an impression of Al Pacino and his various speech patterns over the years. His voice was high-pitched when he was young, then went on to the gravelly “hoo-ahs” in middle age. Now that he is older, Alec said Al has a quasi-Southern accent. And his imitation started out with, “I do declare …” It was very funny.
Snow,
“I used twice the bathroom downstair, for the studio living room openly adjacent to the gala (?) kitchen. I got too scared to slide open the mirror (he might hear it outside), feeling like a thief. It looked having nothing else except a big hand towel.”
Turn the water on to make some noise. Or start coughing.
“Apologized for not have done the last week’s HW”
There needs to be a punishment then, no? 🙂
“I tutor him every Monday evening for one hour. ”
Ok. So we have some time. You wrote until May.
What are you wearing to these sessions? 🙂
“At this movement, LO is presenting and discussing “Matrix” (trilogy), my kind of movie”
It sounds like an interesting class.
Miss Marcia,
I googled:
Question:“ Where did the trope of someone saying “I do declare” in an upper-class southern accent come from?“
Answer:
.Scarlett O’Hara says, “Flowers… for me? I do declare, Mr. Beauregard. You are my hero.” in Gone with the Wind. She also says, “I do declare, Frank Kennedy, if you don’t look dashing with that new set of whiskers!”
Did Gone With the Wind influence the way people speak? Or did it take inspiration from how the upper class in the south speaks? That I do not know.“
I wasn’t that wrong 💪🏻?
Mila,
“Miss Marcia”
LOL. Love the “Miss.”
“Answer:
.Scarlett O’Hara says, “Flowers… for me? I do declare, Mr. Beauregard. You are my hero.” in Gone with the Wind. She also says, “I do declare, Frank Kennedy, if you don’t look dashing with that new set of whiskers!””
You are right! I had forgotten that. I have a friend who is Southern and I’ve visited her there a few times. I don’t remember ever hearing her or anyone else say “I do declare.” Maybe no one says it anymore or maybe it’s only said in certain parts of the South ?
“Did Gone With the Wind influence the way people speak? Or did it take inspiration from how the upper class in the south speaks? That I do not know.”
I don’t know, either.
I wasn’t that wrong 💪🏻?
You weren’t!
„ I wasn’t that wrong 💪🏻?
You weren’t!“
Ha!
I rewatched that film during the pandemic on Netflix out of boredom, maybe that bit stuck in my brain.
I even read the book ages ago, but in my language. I cannot imagine how they would have translated „I do declare“😅
Marcia,
😂😂😂
You’re hilariously funny. Next Monday, I’ll turn on the facet while using the bathroom.
You keep confused: I don’t have definitive finishing time with Romeo, as long as he wants to further his learning.
But LO and I are both leaving our work in early May; most likely I won’t be able to see him forever. He most likely will end up moving to another state. I am stuck here (with Mom, who needs my help at least once every other week. )
Even at the end of this LE 7, I’m feeling very sentimental about this coming “eternal” departure.
Romeo seems to be sincere and serious in his learning, he’s a bit self-conscious and shy as well, like a big sweet boy. I don’t feel comfortable yet to make any jokes.
Well Miss Snowphoniex
I kind of got that impression of you too over the time that you have posted here. While LO had very good taste in women’s fashion she was very much a tomboy. Which was really polarizing because you wouldn’t think seeing her she would be. But I think that is why she didn’t like the Miss.
Miss Marcia ….
…..it is then. And I will try to remember the ma’am as I use that a lot when talking to my female co-workers and other women I meet.
I remember how both the young ladies our oldest son has dated; his ex and his present lady friend, parents were always praising me for how polite, well mannered and respectful he is. I guess I did at least something right with him.
Friday when my boss came to visit the location I work at he was telling me that we were hiring a new young lady shortly (where LO use to be) to help with invoicing for our location. I asked him if he warned her about the salesman here how they do very shoddy paper work and leave her all kinds of problems. He said yes he did but he said “I also told her Adam is very polite and is always willing help you with anything you need” So that felt kinda good.
Mila,
“I rewatched that film during the pandemic on Netflix out of boredom, maybe that bit stuck in my brain.”
Rhett Butler: “You ought to be kissed, and often, and by someone who knows how.”
If someone talked that way to me, I’d do whatever he wanted. 🙂
Miss Marcia,
I wore a baggy jeans and a sloppy, black (chop style) sweater for my first class with Romeo. Last night, a dark flowery skirt (swinging?), black tights, and a dark-red cashmere sweater (I was told I look good in red with my black hair). When I was using the bathroom, Romeo quickly changed his working trousers to loose sweater pants, which I noticed only when I was leaving.
In LO’s class, I got chances to take snap shots of his facial expressions, hand jesters, body movements, all sides of his bums … He occasionally wore black jeans (on his rendezvous days), which highlights a physique of a man in his 30s— a fat-free body (not skinny, but less muscle toned than Romeo, who is definitely shorter than 6’4”).
Marcia,
“Rhett Butler: “You ought to be kissed, and often, and by someone who knows how.”
If someone talked that way to me, I’d do whatever he wanted.”
In this case, I would follow your footsteps!… 😇
Miss Marcia ….
“…..it is then. And I will try to remember the ma’am as I use that a lot when talking to my female co-workers and other women I meet.”
I know a lot of women notice when they are suddenly called “mam” after being called “miss” for years. It makes them feel old. I know it’s not intended that way, but that’s how it feels.
“I remember how both the young ladies our oldest son has dated; his ex and his present lady friend, parents were always praising me for how polite, well mannered and respectful he is. I guess I did at least something right with him.”
And that’s a good thing.
As a woman, I notice when a man has manners and is chivalrous. And I make it a point to thank him if he, for example, gets the door for me. Not every guy does that and it is appreciated.
The above message was for Adam.
Snow,
“I wore a baggy jeans and a sloppy, black (chop style) sweater for my first class with Romeo. Last night, a dark flowery skirt (swinging?), black tights, and a dark-red cashmere sweater (I was told I look good in red with my black hair). ”
That sounds nice, but we’re going for something tight and short or low-cut. 🙂
“In LO’s class, I got chances to take snap shots of his facial expressions, hand jesters, body movements, all sides of his bums … ”
I’ve already moved on from your LO.
We have Romeo now. 🙂
But in all seriousness, yes, May will be a rough month for you. Having to say goodbye is not easy.
Mila,
“In this case, I would follow your footsteps!… 😇”
Actually, the hottest line in that movie is the scene where he has paid to dance with her when she’s still in mourning, which has shocked everyone. And she says, “Another dance and my reputation will be lost forever.”
And he says, “With enough courage, you can do without a reputation.”
OMG. OMG. OMG. 🙂
Miss Marcia,
You’re turning this room to “how to catch and take an available LO to bed”… 😋
“That sounds nice, but we’re going for something tight and short or low-cut. “
Gosh, I need a new wardrobe just for a possible PA? BTW, my red sweater is a low-cut.
“I’ve already moved on from your LO.We have Romeo now. “
I know you already moved for me, but I have this ambivalent feelings about it. On one side, Romeo’s appearance on horizon (even just as a strict pupil), is balancing off some my profound sadness of departing LO in May. On the hand, I feel a sense of a deep loss of LO (regardless whatever pains this LE has brought me), who has been in my life for the last 7 years during which so many “tragic” events took place…
I’m very grateful for that fantasized, surrogate “parenting” although he did not intend and I directed and acted the most “shows”. I grew up in COO that value other people’s benevolent “acts”, w/o their intentions. If without, we call it “fate” or Karma. If we feel entitled to receive benefits from others, we believe bad karmas would befall on us.
“But in all seriousness, yes, May will be a rough month for you. Having to say goodbye is not easy.”
Yes. Even to think about that approaching day, my heart tightens…. (Although nothing could ever happen between LO and me, with his SO and LO around). I just wish(ed) we could be closer friends, which is impossible before my limerence for him is completely gone.
But for now, I’m willing to be coached by you on “circling” a Romeo, my twin sister!
Mila, Marcia,
“And he says, “With enough courage, you can do without a reputation.”
OMG. OMG. OMG.“
That’s also my favorite line!
To think it hard, what is reputation (aside from breaking laws or hurting people and animals on purpose) FOR in a truly individualistic and purposeful life???
Snow,
“You’re turning this room to “how to catch and take an available LO to bed”… 😋”
A girl’s got to do what a girl’s got to do. 🙂
“Gosh, I need a new wardrobe just for a possible PA? BTW, my red sweater is a low-cut.”
I wasn’t thinking a PA. I was thinking someone nice to date … and seeing what happens.
“I know you already moved”
Sorry. With the earlier posts, I was getting Romeo and your LO mixed up. Because, you know … I’ve moved on from your LO. 🙂
“On the hand, I feel a sense of a deep loss of LO (regardless whatever pains this LE has brought me), who has been in my life for the last 7 years during which so many “tragic” events took place…”
Yes, it’s understandable. Seven years is a long time.
” I just wish(ed) we could be closer friends, which is impossible before my limerence for him is completely gone.”
You can’t maintain any kind of friendship, even an occasional email or text? Or will that make moving on harder?
“I’m willing to be coached by you on “circling” a Romeo, my twin sister!”
That boy has no idea what’s about to hit him! 🙂
“To think it hard, what is reputation (aside from breaking laws or hurting people and animals on purpose) FOR in a truly individualistic and purposeful life???”
It has no purpose. That’s why the line is so great. He’s his own person.
Miss Marcia,
“I wasn’t thinking a PA. I was thinking someone nice to date … and seeing what happens.”
Romeo could (may already) have any girl in town if he wishes. I don’t want to expect anything or deliberately try anything at this point, but go with a flow of our classes — still get to watch his sweet, dreamy eyes. I want to stay in reality with our specific tasks in hand, see who he is and show who I am. If there is a chemistry on the other side, I trust it will show somehow; if not, I still get to enjoy his face as long as he does not fire me.
One can’t be too greedy, Sister! Having a glimmer or not, I’m still a half Stoic and a half Buddhistic, it’s even more useful to practice them in a potential dating.
Right now, I’m very content that the initial glimmer — giddy, fuzzy, and heart-pounding sensations followed the first class, has quieted down. I’m not fantasying anything about Romeo and keep checking the reality based on our teaching and learning. LwL’s knowledge is helping keep a high alert in my mind — such a psychological progress!
“You can’t maintain any kind of friendship, even an occasional email or text? Or will that make moving on harder?”
Yes, Sensor LO’s email and social media has always being open to me anytime (got a firm permission again last week when we had tea), but he said he could not be much “available” to respond (one short message perhaps once every 1 or 2 months), which has been very disappointing, prolonging LE’s longing. I do not want slip back to monologuing and feeling clingy again to a parental Phantom. I want to move on to play some ping-pong with available hands. 🏓
“That boy has no idea what’s about to hit him! “
Good lord, imagine I’m hitting that “Danish Girl” in his male form! 😇
“It has no purpose. That’s why the line is so great. He’s his own person.”
That’s what I admire and love Butler’s character so much…. Only I really dislike his mustache — please no hair on male’s face!
Snow,
“Romeo could (may already) have any girl in town if he wishes. I don’t want to expect anything or deliberately try anything at this point, but go with a flow of our classes — still get to watch his sweet, dreamy eyes. I want to stay in reality with our specific tasks in hand, see who he is and show who I am. If there is a chemistry on the other side, I trust it will show somehow; if not, I still get to enjoy his face as long as he does not fire me.”
That sounds good. That’s what I would do in your situation. Go with it. See what happens. While also completing my investigation of his medicene cabinet and wearing my low-cut, red sweater. 🙂
“One can’t be too greedy, Sister!”
Yes, you can! How often do we have these tingly feelings? Not often. At least I don’t.
“Right now, I’m very content that the initial glimmer — giddy, fuzzy, and heart-pounding sensations followed the first class, has quieted down.”
That would be disappointing. Although I don’t know how I could ever teach someone if I felt that way.
“I’m not fantasying anything about Romeo”
That’s actually good. You just want to enjoy the feelings without having it effect you in a negative way.
“but he said he could not be much “available” to respond (one short message perhaps once every 1 or 2 months), which has been very disappointing”
Yeah, that would be.
“Only I really dislike his mustache — please no hair on male’s face!”
I agree. You can see watch other movies with Clark Gable without the mustache. The man was sexy!
I really like this clip —
https://youtu.be/k-k23Lk9njY?si=BFb8KfzVa9tDtA0n — How to Survive a Loss of Reputation.
Lost in Space and Bewitched,
have you read this article:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-anxious-attachment/
I just found it.
Hi Mila! Yeah that’s a good blog article too, I was gonna reference it in my next reply to you… I like Dr L’s point that we can’t draw conclusions about our attachment style based solely on how we act with our LO. Basically we’re all anxiously attached to our LOs… that’s just one of the key features of limerence. If we have a lifetime history of secure attachment in general and only display anxious patterns with LOs, then that’s just limerence, not a sign that we have a deeper lying insecure attachment style.
For me, I’ve actually tended towards avoidant in most of my relationships lifelong. I don’t tend to maintain friendships long term, and I don’t typically let friends get very close. Whenever a friend tries to get closer like, you know, wanting to hang out more than once a month or something, I start displaying a bunch of avoidant behavior and put up walls. I don’t like this about myself, but I find myself doing it over and over again. As a result, I find myself often craving more close connections in my life but I just don’t have them. Most times in my adult life, the only person I’ve been really close to is my SO. These days I have a lot of people I’m friendly with on a surface level, but no actual close friends.
I’ve only had 2 bona fide romantic relationships in my life. In the first, I was quite avoidant throughout the entire relationship (with a very anxious-preoccupied partner who I always felt was smothering my independence). With my SO on the other hand, I’ve always been anxious-preoccupied, probably because she leans more avoidant so I became the chaser and her the runner. We’ve become more secure together over the years, but we can still fall into the anxious-avoidant dynamic when we’re not careful. And with my LOs of course I’m anxious-preoccupied but that only sort of counts.
So overall what is my attachment style? I guess maybe fearful avoidant… I mean, I’ve spent my whole life craving closeness and affection and love, but until I met my SO I always felt like I was unworthy of it somehow and always had this feeling like no one would ever love me. And at the same time I know I’ve pushed a lot of people away who wanted to establish genuinely close friendships with me – I’m usually friendly and engaging with other people to a certain level, but I have hidden walls that I don’t let most people cross. I also sometimes start relationships out with a lot of enthusiasm and oversharing and stuff, only to pull away later as soon as it seems like the other person might want to get closer too. I’m good at letting people get a little bit close to me but not too close. Honestly it’s probably partly why I’m drawn to anonymous forums like this – I can have some deep conversations and experience some connection with other people, but then I can also disappear easily when I feel overwhelmed.
And then with my current LO, she’s way more avoidant than I am, so that polarizes me to the anxious side. Honestly I think if she was in the anxious-preoccupied role, the relationship would have ended already because I would have freaked out early on and pushed her far away. I think I feel a certain safety in her avoidance, like I can feel free to express a lot of love and affection to her and receive occasional expressions of affection back from her, while always sensing that she’s never going to take it too far and that she’ll distance herself from me before letting us ever get too close. I actually find myself starting to get freaked out sometimes on the rare occasions when she gets too affectionate. For example during our late night phone call a couple weeks ago I started to feel a sense of fear, a sense of losing control, and it kept me from saying some things I might have said otherwise and made me want to end the call. Every time over the past year and a half when it felt remotely like she was really on the verge of leaning in to closeness with me, I’ve felt some fear that held me back. Maybe that’s just a healthy abhorrence of actually crossing the line into a full blown affair, or maybe it’s a deeper seated fear of being that close to her regardless. Who knows… I’ve certainly wondered about that a lot, if we were both actually single and available to each other, would we live happily ever after? Or would one or both of us end up pushing the other away? Or conversely, would we both become totally co-dependent and consume each other? I feel like any of those seem possible…
Anyway, I’m rambling… but I did also want to share a video I liked about attachment theory:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa11KTYzDdw
This woman Thais Gibson has a ton of videos on YouTube and she explains things in a way that makes a lot of sense to me. This link is to a video about attachment styles in general, kind of an “attachment theory 101”, but she has a ton of other videos about the specific styles and about the relationship dynamics between different styles – you can just search stuff like “Thais Gibson anxious avoidant relationship” and a bunch of videos come up that are worth watching.
I recommend her too LiS. She does do a nice job of explaining things in an easy-to-understand way.. It’s her videos that indirectly led me to this forum.
So thank the Gods.. 🙏🏼
MJ – that’s cool that you’ve spent time on this as well! What do you think your attachment style is?
Hi LiS,
very interesting post, I will read and reply later or tonight and check out the video!
Dear Mila and LiS,
I have read your link, Mila, thank you. It was great.
LiS, in your comment on Mila’s link you described keeping people at a bit if a distance throughout your life, due to your attachment style, and this resonated, although as I have gotten older I feel like my attachment style has changed. I am nowadays more available for my friends and more open to attachment from new friends.
However – when it comes to my LO, I am very much anxious and I appreciate your synopsis of the original LwL blog post, theorising that we are *all* anxiously attached to a LO in limerence – that this anxious attachment happens outside of our normal attachment style, since it is a special case. What the LO’s attachment style is makes a huge difference to the dynamic.
More broadly, since we are all attached to our SOs for a long time, what do married people who have no intention of leaving their SO get from limerence? Is it a safe way of being close and intimate with someone who fires up our neurons but who we know will never push for more due to barriers; or is it pure and simple validation; or is it something else? I think validation seeking is what it is in my case. Although I do care about my LO a lot, outside of our interaction. I am invested in him being happy. Its a bit weird.
Thank you for the Thais Gibson link, LiS, I will look at it later.
I am so glad that you are getting somewhere in making sense of all of this.
Good luck with everything.
“Is it a safe way of being close and intimate with someone who fires up our neurons but who we know will never push for more due to barriers”
I think it’s a lot of this for me honestly. I love the feelings of closeness and connection I get with LO, I often think about how badly I wish I could actually be with her as a couple and I fantasize about shared life together, but I really truly don’t want to actually uproot my whole life and my family’s whole life, I’ve never actually had any desire to leave SO for her… and the times when it’s felt like we were actually on the brink of plunging into a PA, I found myself filled with fear and ready to freeze or retreat.
I’ve had a handful of instances over the course of my married life where another woman made a clear and obvious bid for me… in each case, I was pretty spooked and put up boundaries really quickly. I wonder if it’s the case that I could only end up in a limerent emotional affair with a fearful avoidantly attached woman? I mean, a secure person probably wouldn’t be getting involved with a married man in the first place, an anxious-preoccupied would scare me off right away, and a dismissive-avoidant wouldn’t give me enough warmth and affection to draw me close enough to get limerent. Maybe it’s only the fearful avoidant with the whole “come close but not too close, I love you now go away” that offers me a taste of the closeness I crave but also makes me feel safe somehow that they won’t take it too far.
Bewitched – you said that you’ve become more open to new friends over the years and more able to securely attach – is that something you’ve intentionally worked on, or do you feel like it’s something that’s just happened naturally for you over time?
Dear LiS,
“you said that you’ve become more open to new friends over the years and more able to securely attach – is that something you’ve intentionally worked on, or do you feel like it’s something that’s just happened naturally for you over time?”
This is a great question and commenting with you guys here means I am only realising some of these things as I read and respond to you.
I think that my SO has made me very secure. He is quite ‘devoted’ and so I sometimes find our dynamic a little bit claustrophobic, but that is only on rare occasions. Before I met him, I was always a bit anxious in my attachments, or some flavour of anxious (I need to read into attachment theory more to figure it out). With him, there was no need to be anxious, so I relaxed and was more open, I guess. We’ve been married for 16 years, together for 18, so he’s had a big impact on me. As well as having a reassuring SO, I have also matured, have less hard edges than when I was younger. I have had hardships, which make me generally more appreciative of the people in my life, even those I know less well. A lot of them have responded very kindly to my hardships (family health-wise), which has been a revelation, to be honest. Often its an opportunity to share their issues with me and I am not scared off by that anymore.
I have to say that I think I was only ever very anxious in romantic attachments. This is a weird thing – I am pretty sure that I was more avoidant in non-romantic attachments maybe? I had one or two close friends who I confided in, but beyond that, really didn’t want to get to know more people too deeply. I am not sure if this is just my ~introversion…..
Hmm, does attachment theory apply across the board or should we reserve it for parent/sibling and romantic relationships? Are introverts avoidant in friendships?
I am not sure about the theory and need to read into it more.
Thanks LiS and others for posting useful links. I can’t wait to work my way through them!!!
LiS
„Maybe it’s only the fearful avoidant with the whole “come close but not too close, I love you now go away” that offers me a taste of the closeness I crave but also makes me feel safe somehow that they won’t take it too far.“
I think you are on to something here.
But it doesn’t mean necessarily that you cannot get limerent for other LOs, does it? It only means that that’s the only attachment-style-LO that you can sustain an EA with.
Mila – you wrote “But it doesn’t mean necessarily that you cannot get limerent for other LOs, does it? It only means that that’s the only attachment-style-LO that you can sustain an EA with.”
That’s an interesting question for me, because I don’t know that I can actually separate limerence experiences from emotional affairs – I’ve had 3 LEs over the course of my marriage, and they all involved some degree of EA. Only the current one is a disclosed, fully reciprocated EA, but all 3 of my LEs included lots of texting and time together (WAY more than in any normal friendship), lots of deep conversations with lots of very personal sharing, and definite emotional connection and bonding. Whether or not the the other two LOs had actual romantic feelings or even limerence for me I’ll never know because I never asked, but they were all unusually close relationships that would have to be classified as EAs.
I don’t think I could develop limerence for someone I wasn’t close to and having a lot of contact with. I’ve been attracted to plenty of women, I’ve had little crushes on plenty of women and fantasized a little bit about plenty of women, but I’ve only become full blown limerent for my LOs in conjunction with developing close relationships – I get limerent as I get close. The all-day-every-day texting, deep meaningful conversations and little shows of affection are the drivers of me transitioning from attraction to limerence. I actually can’t imagine myself developing limerence from afar – I’ve had little crushes on women I knew casually (classmates, co-workers, etc) but without a growing sense of closeness, the crushes always died out pretty quickly. I guess that’s probably a good thing for me, because it means that if I ever get out of my current limerence episode, I might be able to avoid falling into limerence again by being really good about boundaries and not letting myself develop over-closeness with potential LOs.
But LiS,
I‘m basically the same, I cannot get limerent without some kind of closeness, friendship, and definitely a bit of reciprocation.
But I‘m not as hopeful as you😅that that would be an advantage next time there‘s a glimmer!
Because I could always tell myself , I just want to get to know this person, we are becoming just friends, nothing more, I’ll guard my boundaries etc, but actually it‘s much harder to keep within boundaries with this kind of friendship-dependent LE, than with limerence for someone who doesn’t reciprocate one bit.
Mila, you’re right of course… here I am still fully caught up in my current LE saying how confident I am that I’ll be able to prevent the next one 🤣. I guess the question is, assuming this one ends some day, would I truly be willing to commit to enforcing strong boundaries with myself that include basically never engaging in friendships with attractive women? For the rest of my life? Hmm… I know what the answer to that SHOULD be…
I also some more musings on attachment theory today…I was reading something about object permanence for different attachment types and how that can cause mis-matched expectations. A dismissive avoidant doesn’t see the need to say “I love you” every day because “I already told you I love you on May 2nd 2022 and I haven’t revoked it so clearly I still love you”. Meanwhile the anxious preoccupied needs to hear it several times every day because “I know you told me you love me this morning, but that was like 6 hours ago and your text back to me at lunch time didn’t feel very warm… do you still love me? How about now? Now?”
Obviously that’s a bit of an exaggeration but I think there could be some truth to it as well. I’ve actually experienced that in my relationship with LO – we’ve had a few conversations where I told her I felt bad because I didn’t really know how she felt about me, and she seemed really surprised and was like “you know how I feel, I’ve told you that!” and I’m like “yeah but that was months ago and you’ve barely been speaking to me for the past few weeks so it feels like maybe your feelings have changed…” and she’s like “I’m sorry you felt like that, please don’t worry, I feel the same about you even when I don’t have the ability to communicate with you for awhile”. And it’s hard for me to truly believe that because it’s just so different from how I am (I probably tell my SO 20 times a day that I love her), but I just have to believe her when she says it and just accept that we’re wired differently.
Hi LiS,
I‘m just wondering- most limerents, no matter which attachment style they might have in normal relationships, will have an anxious component in their relationship to LO, no?
You say yourself that you’ve got another attachment style in the rest of your life. Why is your LO who is clearly limerent too, not anxiously attached?
Is it because you are such a reliable person or is it because there has to be one who is anxious and one who is avoidant?
Just idly wondering.
I also wonder for myself if I would be limerent for current LO if he wouldn’t be so passive and I wouldn’t be sure that he would never dare to initiate anything remotely obvious.
It’s definitely different from my other LEs.
Mila that’s a great question! I’ve thought about that a lot myself.
“Why is your LO who is clearly limerent too, not anxiously attached?
Is it because you are such a reliable person or is it because there has to be one who is anxious and one who is avoidant?
Just idly wondering.”
I think it’s a combination of factors. I think it’s partly a case of me being very reliable and expressive where she never has any reason to doubt my feelings or worry about me not being available. I honestly don’t think there’s been a single time in the last year and a half where I left her guessing about my feelings or wasn’t available to her when she wanted to talk or needed support (at least from M-F, 8-6). I think it’s also a case of partners tending to polarize in opposite directions, where in this case my anxious-preoccupiedness pushes her to be avoidant. I’ve wondered sometimes what would happen if I started acting more avoidant – if I suddenly started taking days to respond to her texts sometimes, would she suddenly flip to anxious-preoccupied? I’m not one to play games like that and I won’t, plus I really don’t want her to be anxious-preoccupied, but I’ve certainly wondered.
I think the other factor is her residual feelings of guilt about our relationship and fear of discovery. She still carries significant wounds from her ex husband cheating on her, so I know it takes some serious mental gymnastics for her to justify her involvement with me. I think it’s important to her that we don’t talk every day. She’s told me various versions of this. She’s said we shouldn’t talk every day because it makes it too easy to get tempted. She’s said that talking too often makes her feel guilty and anxious. I think to some extent she rations how often she talks to me – I suspect there’s times she’d like to talk more but doesn’t allow herself because she feels like we’ve already talked too much that week. In her mind, if we limit our interactions to texting a few days a week, talking on the phone once a week and rarely seeing each other in person, it’s easier for her to tell herself that we’re not doing anything wrong and we’re just close friends.
Of course I’ve spent time wondering what the dynamic would be if we were actually together as a couple. Maybe we’d still polarize in the same way – me to anxious, her to avoidant. Maybe it would flip to the opposite. Or maybe we’d both be anxious-preoccupied and we’d develop a really unhealthy co-dependence (I think this is probably the most likely honestly).
My SO and I are both insecurely attached people – over the years we’ve had times when we were both anxious and pretty co-dependent, and other times where I polarized to anxious and her to avoidant. Over the course of 20 years, many of them with us going to counseling, we’ve moved a lot more towards a secure attachment to each other where we enjoy a lot of closeness but can also give each other space without feeling anxious about the other person pulling away. We’re actually probably in the best place we’ve ever been in terms of attachment to each other – I truly think this LE has helped in a weird way because it’s drawn my anxiety to another person, so I don’t smother my SO with my anxieties, and as a result she doesn’t feel a need to push me away to create space for herself, and we can actually relate to each other on pretty secure terms.
Hi LiS,
interesting. Maybe her SO is such an unstable and unreliable character that she got limerent for you especially because she felt that she can be avoidant with you and take her own time and space and pull back when she wants to without the fear of losing you. Like she needs both sides of the scales, the different attachment to you balances out her attachment to her SO.
It’s maybe a matter of fulfilling each other‘s needs- her need for reliability even when she‘s keeping her distance now and then, and your need to help and care for someone, or your need to transfer anxiety to her so you can be secure with SO.
Only half-baked theories, of course.
I really admire the way you explain things, I can follow so clearly how you got into this EA and why it’s hard to mark it down as evil and end it.
LiS and Bewitched,
I‘m intrigued by this discussion.
„I’m usually friendly and engaging with other people to a certain level, but I have hidden walls that I don’t let most people cross“
I‘m like that too, I remember , LiS, that we already talked about it. Friends trust me and confide in me a lot, but I don’t confide to them very often, I prefer to listen.
That’s also, like LiS, I love writing here anonymously. Here I can let go and also be a bit selfish and ramble about myself.
Also, I was intrigued by this
„Every time over the past year and a half when it felt remotely like she was really on the verge of leaning in to closeness with me, I’ve felt some fear that held me back. Maybe that’s just a healthy abhorrence of actually crossing the line into a full blown affair, or maybe it’s a deeper seated fear of being that close to her regardless.“
The one time LO started to say something that sounded as if he would disclose, I interrupted him and changed the subject.
I also remember being scared.
Maybe his passivity and the knowledge that nothing will happen is what keeps me in limerence, and as soon as he steps closer, I back off.
That’s really weird, because the rest of the time I fantasize about him coming closer. But maybe it’s only when it comes as a surprise? I‘m so used to his not coming closer that it freaks me out for an instant if he does?
„ I think validation seeking is what it is in my case. Although I do care about my LO a lot, outside of our interaction. I am invested in him being happy.“
While I‘m also validation-seeking, I think it’s a bit more in my case. I genuinely care for him and think we like each other specially well. I seem to have problems with boundaries,or it’s the anxiety of him leaving, or maybe you are right and on top of liking him so need validation. I don’t know.
Haven’t managed to check out the video yet, but I will.
“Is it a safe way of being close and intimate with someone who fires up our neurons”
There is a great bit by comedian Patrice O’Neil about not necessarily limerence but about men in general. Especially when us men reach mid life, whether we are in a LTR or not. I’ll try to summarize it.
Men like to fish. We don’t want to keep the fish. We just want to know that we can still catch a fish. We want to tell the guys that we can still catch fish. Take a few pictures of it so that we can show other guys we can still catch fish. And then when we are done showing that we can still fish we throw the fish back in the lake.
I think it is a good analogy because it doesn’t dress up the reason why men seek the attention of women. (I can’t speak for women obviously.) It’s just plainly out there. And it gives it a less “romantic” tinge to it, as it is not fair to the “fish” we are trying to catch or the “fish” we already have in the boat.
That analogy is funny, Adam. I can’t speak for all women, but I definitely want to believe that I can still catch fish. It’s different for me in two ways.
1. I don’t want other women to know that I’m fishing because they’ll want to kick my a$$ if they know what I’m up to.
2. I don’t want to throw the fish back. I like the fish. I know I can’t eat it, but I don’t want to let go of it either so I befriend the fish.
@ Lovisa & @Adam
Same Lovisa!
To your 1. and 2. I would add:-
3. I have obsessive tendencies towards certain “species” of fish, LOL. So knowing that I can catch any old fish isn’t enough, it has to be my favourite species….
lol Bewitched! Thanks for that validation and thanks for not wanting to kick my a$$. I like your addition. I’m trying to decide how important the species of fish is to me. I think I like the middle-aged, religious, committed, family-man species. Yep! You’re right, I do have a preference. I agree with your #3.
4. I also want them to live in a lake that is not close to me because it’s too dangerous if they live nearby.
Well, yeah,
I still like to know that I can still catch a fish, but I don’t develop limerence for every fish…
Last year a quite young fish;) seemed to be really interested, couldn’t believe it first, but he definitely fancied me a lot. I felt sort of validated, but then I quickly felt uncomfortable because although he was an attractive and sweet guy, I really didn’t have any interest neither in an affair nor even a closer friendship, and it got quite awkward with him.
I want to say that this kind of „can I still catch a fish?“ is for me not the same as limerence.
LOL, I guess I like to fish, too. Just not sure yet if LO is the type to throw them back in the lake…..
Haha you ladies really took that analogy and ran with it. Glad you found it amusing.
Here’s the original bit. There is some adult language but it is extremely light compared to most of his comedy. I tried to find the cleanest cut of it on youtube
Patrice O’Neal — Men Like To Fish
https://youtu.be/R5E7XkgbnRY?si=rQB_1KERaPV-AaxG
Adam,
“Men like to fish. ”
Are you talking about flirtation? And if so, can I ask why? Because most flirtation doesn’t mean anything. There’s no intention behind it. No one’s going to do anytying about it. So you haven’t really caught anybody. And some people flirt with everybody. It doesn’t mean they’re into you.
I watch this radio host on youtube. He gives advice, mostly on relationships. His name is Dr. John Delony. Anyway, he talked about how he always used to walk into a room with flirty energy. (He is happily married.) And, at some point, he realized he was using people for validation. So he stopped doing it. And now he walks into a room with a sense of peace. I have no idea how you get to that level. 🙂
Miss Marcia
If you mean in the analogy by Patrice O’Neil I take his bit as men like to know that they can still snag a woman whether they should or not. Or whether they even want to move forward with that woman. It’s the knowing that women still see them as viable. It’s a way of us men, especially older men, to see that they are still biologically attractive to other women. I guess in the end it is a validation thing.
I’ve been told by many people that through the good manners and chivalry that my father taught me in regards to women can be interpreted as flirting. So while I have been called a flirt that is genuinely not my intention. With the exception of her even if I was unconsciously doing it. I don’t see flirting as “innocent” so it saddens me that we are in a society where my manners are flirting.
Adam,
” I guess in the end it is a validation thing.”
It is. But … how much validation does one person need? I mean that for men and women. I personally would be leery of getting involved with a man who was very flirtatious. I used to think it was sexy. Now I see it as someone who needs a lot of attention.
“I’ve been told by many people that through the good manners and chivalry that my father taught me in regards to women can be interpreted as flirting. So while I have been called a flirt that is genuinely not my intention.”
I know what you mean. Good manners and flirting are two different things. Flirting has a different energy.
To point out something else, I don’t automatically interpret a man talking with me or interacting with me as flirting. Sometimes people are just being friendly. But if he’s hovering a lot and aiming a lot of his attention at me repeatedly… even if there’s no outward flirting from him, I start to wonder.
But if it’s a general attention and he’s giving it to everyone .. .then, no. I don’t.
I have a story to share about attachment disruption. When I was a new foster mother, my 13-month-old foster daughter hurt herself. My instincts kicked in and I immediately reached for her to comfort her. She reached for me, looked me in the eyes and began walking backwards away from me. It was very confusing. I still can’t make sense of it.
Another incident happened while we were hiking. (I had already parented my oldest daughter so I had some strategies in place that worked with securely attached kids). We were in a popular forest when my foster-toddler refused to follow me. She was just testing boundaries and that is totally normal for kids. I invited her to follow me (and her three siblings) then I walked away. Most kids will follow in a situation like that. My daughter looked around, saw another adult woman and walked over to that adult stranger and reached up for her. My daughter’s therapist said, “Oh that’s interesting, you left so she found a replacement Mommy.” The therapist also said that I handled the situation appropriately, but since she had attachment problems, she didn’t respond the way a typical toddler would have responded.
Anyway, I guess these stories aren’t relevant to the topic. I just wanted to share. I adopted my foster kids, so that little girl is my teenager now. I think my daughter will be vulnerable to limerence. I don’t know how to talk to her about it. She has symptoms of borderline personality disorder where she idealizes and villainizes people. It’s hard on us and it’s hard on her. I wish I knew how to help her.
Dear Lovisa,
My brother did fostering for a while and experienced this same reaction with his foster son. The little boy was a bit older, maybe 7, he had no boundaries. He would reach out to anyone and everyone. It was very frightening to think how easy he would be to prey on, if in the wrong company. Is child therapy provided where you live? It wasn’t where I live. The foster parents got very little support. So I have absolutely no experience with that. Also, my brother’s foster child was only with them for a short period (less than one year). His birth mother wanted him back and got custody. Its such a major commitment for foster parents, trying to help these very hurt kids. But I bet that your daughter is doing much better than the kids who don’t have the long term stability of being adopted and living in one loving home over most of the years of their childhood.
All the best to you!!
Thanks Bewitched! Hats off to your brother and his wife for fostering a 7-year-old boy. That is HARD! I know because my son was 7 when I adopted him. To answer your question, yes there is therapy available for foster kids where we lived and therapy for adopted kids where we currently live. I’ve had hundreds of hours of therapy with my kids. Maybe even thousands of hours. There is no way we could have afforded all the therapy on our own. Thank goodness that we were given Medicaid as part of our adoption agreement because we would be lost without support from the professionals. I’m sad that your brother didn’t have more support. We’ve also been involved in post-adoption support groups that are helpful. Even though my son is an adult, we have a team of two therapists, two case workers and a handful of mentors that work with our family. I am very grateful for the State’s after-care assistance. When I hear people say, “The system is broken.” I feel defensive of the wonderful people who continue to help my family. The struggles don’t end after adoption. My kids were born addicted to drugs and they bounced through multiple foster homes before we met them. We face big challenges, but we don’t have to do it alone.
Lovisa I just want to say you’re a wonderful person with an amazing heart for people. That’s all 😊
She really is isn’t she LiS. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of heart Miss Lovisa has for others. Truly one of God’s angels on Earth.
Aww, you guys are so sweet. Thank you!
Snow,
Moved from “Case study: polyamory and unwelcome limerence” post.
” Father somewhat carried an air of John Hurt (while young without his facial air)”
Good actor. I always remember him in the movie “Alien.”
“Male chauvinists, narcissists, potential stalkers, mouth-drilling faces…”
Well, yeah.
“I don’t want to be an object in a relationship”
I meant the sexual/romantic part of the relationship. To be seen as a sex object in that part of it. But of course to be also seen as a whole person. That’s just one side of you.
“why do you like me before I even noticed you or while I am not interested in you at all??”
They didn’t know how to pick up on the signals that you weren’t interested or hadn’t noticed them.
“Younger men”?
You wrote “young men.” I thought you meant younger men were approaching you. As in … guys in their 20s or something.
“LO talked a lot about his sounding empathetic but also a bit dominant wife (never saw or met the tall, baroque lady)”
And that didn’t turn you off a bit? That she was dominant and he was passive ?
“but not highly individualistic ones, whom we highly individualistic women deal with case by case, and who constantly change and evolve, like ourselves.”
I haven’t met a lot of individualistic men, tbh.
“He kept saying he preferred our interactions to be something “causal”.”
He said that? That would have been off-putting.
“Your cultural terminology in dating games: got to the 2nd base, or made a home run… I will pick up and lead a LO to the baseball field, but he has to strike first, lead to 2nd base, then make a home-run. I’ll cheer lead along the way….”
Ah, ok. I mean, I prefer the man to strike first, but if he doesn’t and it’s obvious he wants something to happen … I’ll do it.
“You truly, subconsciously did NOT care about what your LO could possibly have thought of you or called you?? 🧐”
Yes, I cared what my LO thought. I thought you meant people in general.
But I wanted him to see me as someone different. Maybe a little bit of a bad girl, who could open up a whole new world for him, one I imagined he’d never known. Of course, this was all in my head. I have no actual proof of any of this.
Miss Marcia,
“Good actor. I always remember him in the movie “Alien.”
I’ve never seen “Aline”. Dad resembled Winston/Hurt a lot in “1984”, but more optimistic with much more ease and humor.
“I meant the sexual/romantic part of the relationship. To be seen as a sex object in that part of it. But of course to be also seen as a whole person. That’s just one side of you.”
Well, “to be seen as a sex object” in the “sexual/romantic part of the relationship” still sounds being objectified. It’s a dance, actively danced by two sides. Both sides need to see and treat, to be seen and treated as organic, energetic and sexual dancers, I simply dislike the word “object”. In COO, 99.9% of women are treated as a sex object.
“They didn’t know how to pick up on the signals that you weren’t interested or hadn’t noticed them.”
In a macho culture, because women are treated as an “object”, so a lot of men don’t even bother to check women’s wishes. They simply chase or hunt, treating them like female “animals”, bigger or stronger (more in socioeconomic status as well as in physique) males win. Needless to say, in many cultures, good-looking women get chased more simply because of their face, not their personality.
“LO talked a lot about his sounding empathetic but also a bit dominant wife (never saw or met the tall, baroque lady)”
And that didn’t turn you off a bit? That she was dominant and he was passive ?”
Nope, not a bit. I could not care less what was happening in that household (another reason I know I was not after pair-bonding). He talked about their long, but “fluctuated” marriage and some “detours” (both sides had some kind of private “friendship”, he denied any PA ever happened on his side). I assumed that is a “happy” or workable marriage is supposed to be.
I was so respectful the boundary between LO and me that one time he said, “it’s not like we could not speak to our opposite sex….”. As I said before, LO#7 was seen and treated by me as a surrogate“parent” figure, so a “damaged child” rarely thought about the “parent’s own life, but only focused on how her triggered unmet “child’s” needs could be met.
In general if I have not met or spoken with anyone’s SO (men or women), they simply exist as a concept, how am I supposed to feel or care for them as a human being, even if I want to? But if I know them in person, even just a little bit, then my mind could not totally go aloof or carefree.
“I haven’t met a lot of individualistic men, tbh.”
Maybe because I was/am an odd ball and get easily bored with confirming types, I naturally drew some individualistic attentions, from both men and women, which made the friendships/relationships rather challenging; because no ordinary rules to follow.
“Ah, ok. I mean, I prefer the man to strike first, but if he doesn’t and it’s obvious he wants something to happen … I’ll do it.”
I haven’t encountered a situation when I needed to do anything. The first strike to home-run were all taken care by LOs. Now recalling it, LO#7 hinted several times that I take strike first (when chances were presented) but I was simply unable due to COO’s upbringing, which feels like having imprinted into my DNA now…. Never underestimate power of “brainwash” in any ideological system.
“Yes, I cared what my LO thought. I thought you meant people in general.”
I cared less, less and less what other people thought of me, it was so stupid to “bend” one so much to fit in anywhere. Nowadays, I even cared little about what LO thought of me, since I saw some dark stuff behind his fiercely guarded mask… and all the dramas between us have been laid in peace to the past, since an eternal separation is definitely coming!
Still, some sentimentality and the sadness of a loss invade me at least twice daily… despite Romeo’s landing; I can’t remember his sweet face again! Why❓
Snow,
“Dad resembled Winston/Hurt a lot in “1984”, but more optimistic with much more ease and humor.”
I should see that. I haven’t. It also has Richard Burton. Another actor I really like.
“Well, “to be seen as a sex object” in the “sexual/romantic part of the relationship” still sounds being objectified.”
Well, yeah, you are. The sexual side of you is. Just as that side of him would be objectified by you. I’m talking about 5 to 10 percent of the relationship. Or however much time you spend in bed. Bedroom rules are different.
“In a macho culture, because women are treated as an “object”, so a lot of men don’t even bother to check women’s wishes.”
There’s some truth to that. Also, I think there’s a cultural narrative that a man creates an opportunity if he approaches the woman. When, sometimes, the woman knows who she likes and is trying to signal to that man to approach (although women are often too subtle for men).
“Needless to say, in many cultures, good-looking women get chased more simply because of their face, not their personality.”
What else does he have to go on besides her appearance before he talks to her if he sees her from across the room?
“Nope, not a bit. I could not care less what was happening in that household”
Yeah. I can see that. But a guy announcing he’s passive is kind of a letdown. I remember a guy I was dating announcing he’d alwasy been passive in relationships, which was a turn off. Was I expected to do everything? But you’re right … why would you care what the LO is doing at home?
“As I said before, LO#7 was seen and treated by me as a surrogate“parent” figure, so a “damaged child” rarely thought about the “parent’s own life, but only focused on how her triggered unmet “child’s” needs could be met.”
That is how we think of our parents. That they have no role other than being our parents. I remember it being a surprise when I realized my parents had a whole life outside of me.
“In general if I have not met or spoken with anyone’s SO (men or women), they simply exist as a concept”
I felt the same way. The SO/spouse was compartmentalized in another part of LO’s life that had nothing to do with me.
“I naturally drew some individualistic attentions, from both men and women, which made the friendships/relationships rather challenging; because no ordinary rules to follow.”
I guess it depends on what you mean by “individualistic.” I’ve been in very progressive, forward-thinking environments, but there was still a lot of “group think” going on. To me, a person is still “drinking the kool aid” if they are following any idelology, whether progressive or mainstream. A true individual thinks for himself and figures out his own way to live. No, I haven’t met many people who do that.
“Now recalling it, LO#7 hinted several times that I take strike first (when chances were presented) but I was simply unable due to COO’s upbringing”
It was actually very exciting. To be the one to make the first move. To flip the cultural script. The guys weren’t expecting it! 🙂
“Still, some sentimentality and the sadness of a loss invade me at least twice daily… despite Romeo’s landing; I can’t remember his sweet face again! Why❓”
Whose face? Romeo’s?
““In a macho culture, because women are treated as an “object”, so a lot of men don’t even bother to check women’s wishes.””
Being that there are quotes on this statement from my copy/paste of Marcia’s post above I am not sure the origin of said statement. But any man that doesn’t bother to check a woman’s wishes isn’t worth your time. A man’s purpose is to provide and protect the women in his life. I know in today’s day and age that’s sexist but that is what we are here for. And I taught that to our boys. And I did that with pride.
Short story …. when our oldest son was dating (his now ex) they mostly met up to see each other. He went to her house or she came and visited him at our house. One time they went on an “official” formal date. I came home from work to a very well dressed but obviously nervous son. “Son what’s wrong?” “I am going on a date with ______ tonight. We’re going to eat dinner together.” “Okay so what’s the issue? You two have been together over a year.” “Yeah but we never went on a date alone together. I don’t know what to do. I need you’re advice.” And without much thought I said (hold on to your pearls lol) “There’s two things a woman’s hand should never touch on a first date; a door or the check. And don’t forget to pull out her chair for her.” I really am an outdated old man.
Adam,
“any man that doesn’t bother to check a woman’s wishes isn’t worth your time.”
Yes, back in COO, I ignored more than an army of Macho men… had felt “no mercy” if their hearts were broken. I was not an object in romance for chase, hunt or rent.
“A man’s purpose is to provide and protect the women in his life. I know in today’s day and age that’s sexist but that is what we are here for. And I taught that to our boys. And I did that with pride.”
Despite I like feminine looking male, I still appreciate some of your classical values for men. I would rather my date show all classical manners at the very beginning, and then I’d “pay bacK” double or triple times more — I can cook, massage, can care very well, as well as pay bills. Once on the third date with a young gorgeous millionaire (by heritage), I insisted in paying a big bill on a high-end dinner for us, he appreciated it very much. I’ve never had interest to dig anyone’s gold, but their personality.
Marcia,
“I should see that. I haven’t. It also has Richard Burton. Another actor I really like.”
I strongly recommend that you watch “1984”? Better to read the short book first. Hurt’s performance there is great!
“Well, yeah, you are. The sexual side of you is. Just as that side of him would be objectified by you. I’m talking about 5 to 10 percent of the relationship. Or however much time you spend in bed. Bedroom rules are different.”
I guess from one angle, you have your point. But I’ve never viewed man/woman as an object even in bedroom, it’s a beautiful dance (with affection involved) — whole body’s energy exchanging and charging, one cannot do it with an object. It is two autonomous life-artists living artistic life in living room as well as in bedroom.
“When, sometimes, the woman knows who she likes and is trying to signal to that man to approach (although women are often too subtle for men).”
It happens in the West more, and I think it’s cool; however, I still have difficult to follow such an approach due to my COO traditional, strict upbringing. The outdated concepts/notions need to be broken completely before one could act freely.
“But a guy announcing he’s passive is kind of a letdown. I remember a guy I was dating announcing he’d always been passive in relationships, which was a turn off. Was I expected to do everything?”
I agree. That would frustrate me as well, since I tend to do everything with passion. If he’s always passive, I would not be able to tell whether he’s truly romantically interested in me or not.
There was a period of 8 months 3 years ago, LO was very active in pulling me towards him as a “camaraderie” (writing 3 to 4 long, substantial emails per day). When I got closer to him (In writing); he inserted that word “causal”, along his off-putting “demeaning” (in writing) — “I’m selfish, it has to be my way… take it or leave it…”. I was so shocked! I reasoned back and refused to follow his implicit demands (not sure exactly entailed) but still stuck in my LE. Then, he backed up. 6 months later, his LO appeared. So all the way along, he sensed my LE passion for him and wanted a casual PA without EA that we limerents desire. My point, a man can be very active, if he is really into his “beloved”.
“I felt the same way. The SO/spouse was compartmentalized in another part of LO’s life that had nothing to do with me.”
That’s why I simply can’t feel responsible, or anything for SO/spouse. They’re their own autonomous beings, supposed to be cared by their own SO/spouses, not anyone else.
“I guess it depends on what you mean by “individualistic.” “
Highly intelligent, erudite, deep-thinker, passionate but non-confirming, daring rule breakers, like Butler or Albert Camus.
“A true individual thinks for himself and figures out his own way to live.”
That ‘s what I’m trying to do.
“It was actually very exciting. To be the one to make the first move. To flip the cultural script. The guys weren’t expecting it! “
In my mind, I am totally with you; but in reality due to my COO upbringing, my nerves just could not match up my mentality. 🫣 If LO emotionally reciprocates enough, then I may be able to bravely strike first or even try the 2nd base…. with your coaching, of course! 🫂
“I can’t remember his sweet face again! Why❓”
Whose face? Romeo’s?”
Yes, Romeo’s face. But LO’s face becomes a bit clearer in my head (before was always blurry) due to his fading out? This phenomenon always happened to my LOs and puzzled me, that’s why I questioned whether Romeo has already become a LO. 🧐
Truthfully, I don’t think about Romeo that much, no reveries at all. LO is still in my head peacefully (no ups or downs) much more times, like a fixed icon (after 7/24 for 7 years). 💫
Now, the fate is forcing me to get this icon out of my mind, which saddens me deeply…🥹
Snow,
“whole body’s energy exchanging and charging.”
Yeah … uh. I’ve never experienced anything on that level.
“It happens in the West more, and I think it’s cool; however, I still have difficult to follow such an approach due to my COO traditional, strict upbringing.”
Well, signaling to the man that you want him to approach you is the old-fashioned way to do it. Kind of like the woman, centuries ago, dropping her handkerchief so that he picks it up.
“If he’s always passive, I would not be able to tell whether he’s truly romantically interested in me or not.”
Yeah, I agree.
“There was a period of 8 months 3 years ago, LO was very active in pulling me towards him as a “camaraderie” (writing 3 to 4 long, substantial emails per day). When I got closer to him (In writing); he inserted that word “causal”,”
Oh, geez. That’s the classic, push-pull dynamic that a lot of LOs do. It will drive you to drink.
““I’m selfish, it has to be my way… take it or leave it…”
He wrote that?
“My point, a man can be very active, if he is really into his “beloved”.”
I agree. He’ll pursue who he wants, but I still think that being the one to initiate the first kiss, for example, does not mean the woman is doing all the work. You’re not going to do that unless you get signals that you should. You’re at his house alone, it’s late at night, you’re sitting next to him on the couch … etc. It’s obvious the moment has arrived.
“That’s why I simply can’t feel responsible”
That’s true, but if the LO is married I can’t negate that fact. I’m not responsible for her but I am responsible for what I do.
“Highly intelligent, erudite, deep-thinker, passionate but non-confirming, daring rule breakers, like Butler or Albert Camus.”
I would never call Butler erudite or a deep thinker. He’s not trapped in his head. He lives by his gut. That’s why he’s hot.
” If LO emotionally reciprocates enough”
Yes, the LO would have to reciprocate.
“then I may be able to bravely strike first or even try the 2nd base…. with your coaching, of course!”
I have all kinds of ideas! 🙂
“that’s why I questioned whether Romeo has already become a LO. 🧐”
Hopefully not. We’re looking for fun. Not torture. 🙂
“Now, the fate is forcing me to get this icon out of my mind, which saddens me deeply …”
I mean … honestly … I’m assuming you don’t want to hear this, but it’s for the best. The best way to get over an LO is to remove them completely from your life.
Marcia,
Speaking with you is such a learning and fun!
“Yeah … uh. I’ve never experienced anything on that level.”
Most of SEs were disappointing or frustrating if that level were not or could not be reached…. 🙁
“Well, signaling to the man that you want him to approach you is the old-fashioned way to do it. Kind of like the woman, centuries ago, dropping her handkerchief so that he picks it up.”
What’s a modern woman’s signal equilvanent to “dropping her andkerchief” a century ago? ☺️
“Oh, geez. That’s the classic, push-pull dynamic that a lot of LOs do. It will drive you to drink.”
I wish I had found LwL back then. Just a year of after my big surgery, I was physically and mentally “weak”. 😔
““I’m selfish, it has to be my way… take it or leave it…”
He wrote that?”
I still have every single email or text message saved; later he repeated in person with a charming smile “I’m selfish, I prefer things to go my way…” . He must have thought I desired him really badly, or I just appeared like a petite, docile Easterner! That’s another reason why I declined subtle offers another later, because I clearly foresaw a consequence — I’d be just another “trophy” in his “Narc”/Sensor’s matrix, particularly I had to break my oath to myself, which he knew. If he had pretended skillfully to be emotional reciprocal, I might have lost it all…
“He’ll pursue who he wants, but I still think that being the one to initiate the first kiss, for example, does not mean the woman is doing all the work. You’re not going to do that unless you get signals that you should.”
True. But I’ve never initiated a first kiss, there was never such a need. My nerves would be on fire just to think of it… 😨
“That’s true, but if the LO is married I can’t negate that fact. I’m not responsible for her but I am responsible for what I do.”
Well in my case, the SO’s existence helped me take the initial communication with LO, because I thought it was “safe” — he would not attempt PA with me (or anyone else). . Even with a glimmer (did not understand what it was at all), I didn’t want to get physical closeness, but an emotional, mental parental care (not mentally or psychologically clear about this, either). I was so respectable to the boundary that until this day, I’d never touched his any finger, vice versa.
“I would never call Butler erudite or a deep thinker. He’s not trapped in his head. He lives by his gut. That’s why he’s hot.”
Well, that’s why I said before that Butler is not really my type, he’s a bit too wild for me, despite he’s his own men. I like men with strong femininity with a big brain, which both my parents lack and most of my previous LOs possess.
“Hopefully not. We’re looking for fun. Not torture. “
I’m totally with you here. I do not want Romeo to become a new LO, although honestly, I wish somehow our pleasant teaching & learning could help sever the last bit of my lingering limerence, but no transference, please!
“I mean … honestly … I’m assuming you don’t want to hear this, but it’s for the best. The best way to get over an LO is to remove them completely from your life.”
I know you’re right! I’m just always sentimental since young, understanding and accepting two sides of a coin in most of matters in my life, except dealing with hardcore Narcs — absolutely NC with them! 😣
One learns and gets stronger only through sufferings….💪
Thank you for your invaluable support, sister!
Snowphoenix,
“Speaking with you is such a learning and fun!”
Thank you, that is sweet of you.
You, too. 🙂
“Most of SEs were disappointing or frustrating if that level were not or could not be reached…. 🙁”
Well, I look at SEs different than you. I’m not expecting a cosmic experience, but I do like a certain amount on physical intensity, which is not always easy to find.
“What’s a modern woman’s signal equilvanent to “dropping her andkerchief” a century ago? ☺️”
LOL. Well, looking at the guy, holding a bit of extended eye contact, then looking down or away, then immediately looking at him one more time and holding the eye contact and looking away .
Or … if you’re at a bar, for example, you could make a point of walking past him to go to the bathroom and look at him while doing so.
Or, depending on where he is … you go and stand near him. If he’s at the bar, you go and stand next to him and order a drink. There’s his opening.
“I wish I had found LwL back then.”
Me, too. I would have handled my LE a lot differently.
” I’d be just another “trophy” in his “Narc”/Sensor’s matrix, particularly I had to break my oath to myself, which he knew. ”
He was definitely after something if he was sending you 3- or 4-page emails.
He may be a Narc. He may be a man who has a bunch of women orbiting him at any given time.
“My nerves would be on fire just to think of it… 😨”
Well, that’s why it’s fun. It’s a challenge. 🙂
“Well in my case, the SO’s existence helped me take the initial communication with LO, because I thought it was “safe” —”
Married guys are not safe. 🙂
“Well, that’s why I said before that Butler is not really my type, he’s a bit too wild for me, despite he’s his own men. I like men with strong femininity with a big brain, which both my parents lack and most of my previous LOs possess.”
I don’t think I’ve ever been with a Butler type. Which is why it still intrigues me.
“I’m totally with you here. I do not want Romeo to become a new LO”
No, you don’t. No new LOs. No transference. Just a nice, fun experience. If something happens, fine. If it doesn’t, that’s ok, too.
“One learns and gets stronger only through sufferings….💪”
I just wish that some of these “life lessons” would be pleasant. Or that I got what I wanted. Instead of them being painful and me realizing the whole thing was a trainwreck from the start. Why can’t it be like “Pride and Prejudice” where Elizabeth learns at the end that Darcy is a good guy? That book is not realisitic.
“Despite I like feminine looking male, I still appreciate some of your classical values for men. I would rather my date show all classical manners at the very beginning….”
I always tell people, men or women that men including myself should do things that you call “classical manner” not because they are saying that woman is incapable of doing it herself he does it to show that he values her and respects her.
But I still get called sexist anyway lol Awww yeah American gender politics.
@Adam
“In my day,” we called that treating a girl like a queen, and respectful. Eventually the guy would get comfortable and let you open your own doors, but in the beginning he was supposed to be mannerly. 🙂
Snow,
“Despite I like feminine looking male, I still appreciate some of your classical values for men. I would rather my date show all classical manners at the very beginning….”
Is that easy to find? Are more new agey/modern guys, for lack of a better term, into more egalitarian dating? They don’t get the door, they don’t pay the bill ? They don’t see it as the man taking the woman out. They are going out together ?
Marcia,
“Well, I look at SEs different than you. I’m not expecting a cosmic experience, but I do like a certain amount on physical intensity, which is not always easy to find.”
Well I was/am not expecting “a cosmic experience”, but my body did/does, and would not obey the mind, Buddhistic or Stoic. 😁
“Or … if you’re at a bar, for example, you could make a point of walking past him to go to the bathroom and look at him while doing so.”
Only occasionally go to bars with gf. I rarely spot even a dim glimmer in bars, and always felt uncomfortable in that hunting ground. Once my date went to choose a music piece, another staring guy paid my drink at the bar. I didn’t speak a word with him even afterwards.
“I wish I had found LwL back then.”
Me, too. I would have handled my LE a lot differently.”
I really think we’d be a lot wiser next time when we date, after a glimmer hits. LwL’s knowledge is invaluable. Simply with our awareness, it’d be hard to repeat similar LE mistakes, at least our own.
“He may be a Narc. He may be a man who has a bunch of women orbiting him at any given time.”
After reading DrL’s blog, I think he’s more of insecure Sensor with at least 1 secrete LO, and a bunch of women orbiting him. I witnessed his charming, proper attention while chatting with them, but wasn’t bothered. But I often saw jealousy and hostility in one female colleague’s eyes, while no intimacy of any kind ever occurred between us, except a lot of chitchats in public areas or at his office door.
“Married guys are not safe. “
I tent to or choose to see people in a positive light if I don’t know them well or no stories/gossips show otherwise. LO looks very decent, kind/helpful to all, excellently mannered (from VA), but I sensed his subtle insecurity early on and still can’t believe a man with his well-crafted/sophisticated appearance would go for “casual” something(?) behind his gigantic, henpecking, scholar SO! (If I stand behind her, you literally won’t spot me 🦜)
“I don’t think I’ve ever been with a Butler type. Which is why it still intrigues me.”
I think my LO #4.6 was a bit like Butler but w/ a PhD, but common looking. He was a playboy/womanizer, also Long distance. Btw, Clark Gable without beard looked really cool!
“No, you don’t. No new LOs. No transference. Just a nice, fun experience. If something happens, fine. If it doesn’t, that’s ok, too.
We are on exactly same page! 🫂
“I just wish that some of these “life lessons” would be pleasant. Or that I got what I wanted. Instead of them being painful and me realizing the whole thing was a train-wreck from the start.”
Pleasantry makes one complacent and mentally lazy. Truly learning only coming from suffering is really not just a cliche.
“Why can’t it be like “Pride and Prejudice” where Elizabeth learns at the end that Darcy is a good guy? That book is not realistic.”
That’s a modern version of Cinderella, Jane Austin’s fantasy. I just watched BBC’s “Miss Austin’s Regrets”, her biographic story after finishing 5 books before publishing “Emma”, in which Darcy was mentioned again — He’s her favorite fictional “baby”!
Adam, Serial Limerent, Marcia
Having lived in both East and West, I understand both classical and modern/egalitarian points of views, but more “used to” the former, in which 99% guys play an active courting role and was trained since young to take care, protect, treat well his potential pair-bonding mate. In return, their gfs would love and care for their bf in other daily life matters.
But even as a close acquaintance, men would “tear down a restaurant” before they’d let girls/women pick up bills — out of question! They’d feel losing face or insulted in public, so girls/women would not insist so as to “save face” — preserve men’s pride or a sense of “honor”. When I visited some of my good male (previous suitor) friends in COO, they also picked up my hotel bills before I checked out, simply because I made a trip to visit them — paying a respect/friendship to them.
Moreover in COO, it’s considered a “back luck” if a bill is split at a shared meal (symbolizes splitting friendship), between dates or friends. All sides take turns to pay bills for rounds of eating out. If someone ignores the unwritten codes, he would be phased out that social group soon or later.
Here in the West, I think whoever send an invite first should pay for the 1st round, woman pays for the 2nd round, then each take turns. If the inviting side worries there’d be no 2nd time, then just go to a regular coffee shop, that would not break anyone’s pocket. Egalitarianism has a lot of bigger and more complicated grounds to be practiced in dating or a relationship, instead of “bickering” how the bill should be paid.
Once on a 1st date, a $16 coffee/lunch bill was presented to me for a split, I did not feel equal at all but disbelieved! 🙀 (of course, I paid a half, but there was no 2nd date!) And there were guys who seemed not to see a door needed to be open in front of his bulky arms… 😾
Social lives in various cultures are so interesting/intriguing, also psychologically challenging, due to one’s upbringing.
On the other hand, if a girl/woman ALWAYS EXPECTS the bills are paid for them (regardless whether other side is a millionaire), doors are opened for them, I think she should be dumped. She would not (or incapable to) love or care well for her guy, and she does not understand the meaning of egalitarianism. 🟰
I see a workable, romantic relationship is a mutually active, interwoven dual dance between two people in most aspects of their personal life, it can’t be in all areas due to differences in physical size or mental strength — don’t expect me to change light bulbs without a proper ladder. 💡
Mademoiselle Snow,
“Well I was/am not expecting “a cosmic experience”, but my body did/does, and would not obey the mind, Buddhistic or Stoic. 😁”
Wouldn’t your mind be expecting a cosmic experience and your body just be expecting to be laid down well? 🙂
“Only occasionally go to bars with gf.”
Everyone is so literal on this site. 🙂 “Going to a bar” was just an example. Give the signals to some guy in front of you in the line at Starhell (my name for Starbucks). Wherever it is you go. When you are out and about.
“Simply with our awareness, it’d be hard to repeat similar LE mistakes, at least our own.”
I’m hoping that’s true, yes. I’m not sure I trust myself yet to make good choices, but we’ll see.
“After reading DrL’s blog, I think he’s more of insecure Sensor with at least 1 secrete LO, and a bunch of women orbiting him.”
What is a Sensor?
Watch out for a guy with a lot of orbiters. He needs a lot of attention.
“I tent to or choose to see people in a positive light if I don’t know them well or no stories/gossips show otherwise. ”
I was being a bit sarcastic. I would stay away from becoming close friends with a married guy. Anything one-on-one. Communication. Hanging out. But hanging out in a group should be fine.
” behind his gigantic, henpecking, scholar SO! (If I stand behind her, you literally won’t spot me 🦜)”
LOL. I like that image. Giganitc and henpecking. 🙂 Whereas you are petite, feminine and gracious. This I know to be true. 🙂
Whenever I think of an LO’s SO, I always remind myself … he picked her. Who he picked says something about him.
“I think my LO #4.6 was a bit like Butler but w/ a PhD, but common looking. He was a playboy/womanizer, also Long distance. ”
You like those intellectuals, don’t you? 🙂
“Btw, Clark Gable without beard looked really cool!”
He does, right? 🙂
“Truly learning only coming from suffering is really not just a cliche.”
I don’t want to suffer anymore. I went to experience some unbridled, unmitigated joy and fun at some point!
” He’s her favorite fictional “baby”!”
He’s a great character. But he’s just that. He’s a CHARACTER. He’s not real. In real life, he’d be a horse’s ass. 🙂 Only tolerable if he was Colin Firth 🙂
Snow,
Personally, I think it’s nice if the guy pays for the first date. It’s not expected, but it’s a nice gesture and doesn’t have to be anything extravagant. A drink. A coffee.
Subsequent dates (maybe dates 2 and 3), the woman can offer to pay for some of the date, and then, after that, pay for the whole date so they are eventually alternating who pays, as you wrote, so they don’t have to divvy up the bill. That’s off-putting. (This all depends on the financial situation of both parties.) But I certainly don’t expect a man to pay for everything indefinitely.
But guy friends … no, I don’t want them to pay. I want it to be clear it’s not a date. I had that issue with one. Thinking it was a date. Or at least I think that’s what he thought. I was under a different impression.
Marcia,
“Wouldn’t your mind be expecting a cosmic experience and your body just be expecting to be laid down well? 🙂
Like you, my mind likes to get emotionally intimate prior to at least a comfortable level, never those New Age love-dove stuff. One’s body energy, like blood, takes its own biological course, if a neurochemical switch is turned on….it’s not up to our mind’s control. And what is “well” is up to each individual body’s appetite.
“Everyone is so literal on this site. 🙂 “Going to a bar” was just an example. Give the signals to some guy in front of you in the line at Starhell (my name for Starbucks). Wherever it is you go. When you are out and about.”
Since LO stuck in my head for 7 years, I have not done much of that.
“I’m hoping that’s true, yes. I’m not sure I trust myself yet to make good choices, but we’ll see.”
From your posts here, I get a strong sense, you will. Now, our mind is not blank on limerence stuff, which would (sub)consciously affect our thinking and actions.
“What is a Sensor?
https://livingwithlimerence.com/why-are-they-leading-me-on/
“someone who was a highly attuned limerence sensor. They would immediately spot your interest, and subconsciously respond in their pre-programmed way to kindle the interpersonal sparkles. This wouldn’t be malicious or conniving – they would just be responding to your interest by getting energised and excitable as they enjoy the thrill of inspiring limerence in you.“
After reading the above DrL’s blog, all pieces of the puzzle of LO behaviors were fit together.
“Watch out for a guy with a lot of orbiters. He needs a lot of attention.”
I agree with you, even if quietly. LO talks softly and almost humbly without flamboyance or an extrovert’s enthusiasm most of time, except when chatting with female colleagues and even good-looking students; then his body movement or pasture were all charged up.
“I was being a bit sarcastic. I would stay away from becoming close friends with a married guy.”
This is the first time in my entire life I unintentionally glimmered at a married guy (LO#2 had a girlfriend), when I was still entangled in LE #5 relapse. So a transference took place immediately, of course, without me knowing what was happening.
“LOL. I like that image. Gigantic and henpecking. 🙂 Whereas you are petite, feminine and gracious. This I know to be true. 🙂
Thanks. To be fair, she in her photos looks very humble, kind and empathic, like Melanie (?), Ashley’s wife in “gone with wind”. From his talks about her, I got a sense that she’s the “Hen” of that household. But LO is not Ashley in front of other ladies. His LO, shorter than me, quite plump (shrank to skinny a year later after I saw his glomming at her), has this tinged coldness/indifference and a bit of wandering in her eyes, I was once in Ladies’ Room with her and bumped into her twice in Hallway (her classroom must be in the same building at the time). Had no idea who she was/is.
“Whenever I think of an LO’s SO, I always remind myself … he picked her. Who he picked says something about him.”
You already changed a job from where your LO worked, right?
“
You like those intellectuals, don’t you? 🙂”
When the Glimmer took place, I had Absolutely NO idea who they were! There was no time even to check whether a ring on any of their fingers. The electricity switch was just suddenly turned on and could not be turned off. But most of LOs looked very familiar as if I knew them somewhere before, I don’t know what to call it.
I don’t want to suffer anymore. I went to experience some unbridled, unmitigated joy and fun at some point!
I was never a masochist, and could get giddy easily if I physically felt good. But cptsd, those LEs, and other ideological/cultural issues made me suffer a lot of depression, anxieties or panic attacks, and thus forced me to learn, not by my choice.
” Only tolerable if he was Colin Firth 🙂
I like Colin Firth very much, as well.
“Personally, I think it’s nice if the guy pays for the first date. It’s not expected, but it’s a nice gesture and doesn’t have to be anything extravagant. A drink. A coffee.”
Totally with you on this.
“Subsequent dates (maybe dates 2 and 3), the woman can offer to pay for some of the date, and then, after that, pay for the whole date so they are eventually alternating who pays”
Again, the same here. I insisted and paid the whole bill of $195 (other side is a gorgeous millionaire from a dating App) for dinner on a third date; the first two I was taken out generously.
“But guy friends … no, I don’t want them to pay. “
With me the same. On this side of the pond, bills are equally split. In COO, I had no saying even after begging my old classmates/friends/suitors. Friendship is much more valued there without bills involved. Their SOs are all okay with it.
Snow,
“Like you, my mind likes to get emotionally intimate prior to at least a comfortable level”
I don’t really need to get emotionally intimate. It’s nice to have mutual chemistry, a flirty rapport, a little conversation.
“Since LO stuck in my head for 7 years, I have not done much of that.”
You haven’t been out and about in 7 years? 🙂 You won’t, of course, run into someone you want to talk to every time you leave the house. It might be rare, but if it happens … why not strike up some conversation?
“From your posts here, I get a strong sense, you will.”
What I worry about it is that I am not capable of being attracted to someone who is good for me, long-term.
“They would immediately spot your interest, and subconsciously respond in their pre-programmed way to kindle the interpersonal sparkles.”
Sounds like most LOs! 🙂
“I agree with you, even if quietly. ”
I used to think that a guy who had orbiters was sexy. He was someone a lot of women wanted. Now, I see him as a guy who is encouraging the attention. Even if you land him (if he’s single and you’re single), he still could have lot of orbiters. You’re not going to want that.
“This is the first time in my entire life I unintentionally glimmered at a married guy”
I just think (and this is my personal opinion) it’s not a good idea to engage in a close friendship with a married guy, whether you’re single or not. That would include spending time together alone, lots of personal emails/texts/calls, etc. Someone is going to develop feelings or … he could be a guy who seeks out “freindships” for additional attention outside of his marriage. Driving you insane with what he will and will not do.
“You already changed a job from where your LO worked, right?”
Yes. As a hypothetical, I’m just saying that he chose his SO and he’s also choosing to stay married. The limerent can’t ignore those facts. Even if the LO is implying or directly saying he’s not happy in his marriage or with his spouse … he’s still in it.
“When the Glimmer took place, I had Absolutely NO idea who they were!”
Didn’t you meet them in a setting where it was obvious they were very educated? Am I wrong about that?
” There was no time even to check whether a ring on any of their fingers. ”
At my age, I just assume they’re married. Most are. 🙂
“But cptsd, those LEs, and other ideological/cultural issues made me suffer a lot of depression, anxieties or panic attacks, and thus forced me to learn, not by my choice.”
I’ve had depression as well. But I do ask myself: When was the last time I had a balls-to-the-walls good time?
“I like Colin Firth very much, as well.”
Most women do. 🙂
“With me the same. On this side of the pond, bills are equally split. In COO, I had no saying even after begging my old classmates/friends/suitors. Friendship is much more valued there without bills involved. Their SOs are all okay with it.”
It sounds very different in your COO.
I just know that … I had a guy friend. He asked me to do something. He insisted on paying. He asked me to do something again. I paid. And we never hung out again. I don’t know for sure if the reason was that I tried to make clear we were going out as friends … but I suspected, as he was also complimenting me.
Marcia,
“I don’t really need to get emotionally intimate. It’s nice to have mutual chemistry, a flirty rapport, a little conversation.”
I tried it (I have a gf often advertising one-night stand to me) and disliked it every signal time. I think I need a bit more emotional connect than “normal” Western women, before I could even consider a physical intimacy. It might be due to COO upbringing — safety is first.
“You won’t, of course, run into someone you want to talk to every time you leave the house. It might be rare, but if it happens … why not strike up some conversation?”
Now, my mind is more liberated to do so.
“What I worry about it is that I am not capable of being attracted to someone who is good for me, long-term.”
Knowing this tendency, you might spend more time with this good guy, developing into being attracted by him more? Sometimes, loving actions could add more attraction. I imagine I could possibly do it, although all my attempt to cultivate a glimmer for a “right” guy failed, mostly because LO was in the way.
“Sounds like most LOs! 🙂”
Some LOs had no ideas that some limerents are eyeing them. Sensors enjoy, and even limerent for their limerents’ pining eyes and attention on them — they limerent for others’ limerence with them(written in DrL’s blog)
“I used to think that a guy who had orbiters was sexy. He was someone a lot of women wanted. “
I disliked those type of guys very much, and I almost never compared or competed myself with any other women. My narcissism wanted my glimmered guy to be interested exclusively in me, his affection would be as strong and intense as mine for him.
“Now, I see him as a guy who is encouraging the attention. Even if you land him (if he’s single and you’re single), he still could have lot of orbiters. You’re not going to want that.”
Agree with you here. Insecure men/women need and like to be “liked”, like my LO openly admitted to me 2-3 times, which was shocking 😳 when I heard it. I NEVER cared or sought to be liked, except by LOs.
“I just think (and this is my personal opinion) it’s not a good idea to engage in a close friendship with a married guy, whether you’re single or not. “
Now I know. At beginning, I was calm for 9 months after the Glimmer took place. But when Dad suddenly passed away, I slipped into LE, when LO was trying to console my unexpected loss and also coaching me on a project he was overseeing.
“That would include spending time together alone, lots of personal emails/texts/calls, etc. Someone is going to develop feelings or … he could be a guy who seeks out “friendships” for additional attention outside of his marriage. Driving you insane with what he will and will not do.”
LO is one of such a seeker (confessed and told me that his SO did, too). My feelings were already developed before any personal emails/texts (never phone calls) were written, etc… Now, I’ve learned my lesson in a long, hard way.
“Yes. As a hypothetical, I’m just saying that he chose his SO and he’s also choosing to stay married. The limerent can’t ignore those facts. Even if the LO is implying or directly saying he’s not happy in his marriage or with his spouse … he’s still in it.”
Totally agree. I’ve turned off many married/engaged/boy-friended men’s wanton eyes, since I had my oath (still have) and there was no glimmer on my side.
“Didn’t you meet them in a setting where it was obvious they were very educated? Am I wrong about that?”
Oh at different places. Retreat, cafes, HS school, friends’ home. LO #7 was only one met at work and married.
“At my age, I just assume they’re married. Most are. 🙂”
LO looked like in his early 30s (47) when my glimmer took a place, I thought he would definitely have a girlfriend. People in my town get married late and many singles in all ages.
“I’ve had depression as well. But I do ask myself: When was the last time I had a balls-to-the-walls good time?”
Without sufficient knowledge in cptsd, I just suffered melancholy, OCD, anxiety quietly most of the time — repressing them and wearing an agreeable mask outside home. .
“It sounds very different in your COO.”
In some aspects, the differences between my COO with the West is like North and South Pole, but many Westerners stereotype COO and make assumptions, based on limited news or books. COO stereotypes the West, too; but less. Sometimes those assumptions are hilarious. Friendship, dating, and marriage are very different.
In my COO, guys ask help mostly from guys (unless it’s a for job or important connection for a business deal) , but girls can ask from both guys and girls. In return, girls would do something nice, like making a delicious meal (minimum 4 courses), to thank the said help. Guy friends ask help from girls? — they would feel losing face, just inside himself! (Brought up by different standards)
Marcia,
In COO, EA is not a vocabulary on relationship/marriage dictionary, so no SO cares about it, as long as there is no PA. I’m a friend with some married men and can socialize with them without their SO; and nothing ever happened or will happen, as long as the Glimmer is absent. But if they somehow “limerent” for me and try to get closer for PA, I’d “kick” their “limerence—face” firmly and coldly without leaving any room for hope.
A glimmer only hit me by a total stranger when it was least expected.
Snow,
“I tried it (I have a gf often advertising one-night stand to me) and disliked it every signal time.”
I didn’t necessarily mean a one-night stand. It just depends on how things go.
” I think I need a bit more emotional connect than “normal” Western women, before I could even consider a physical intimacy. It might be due to COO upbringing — safety is first.”
Some women need more connection; some men do, too. Too much emotional intimacy/knowledge of each other … and the opposite can happen … and you’re not as interested in sex.
“Now, my mind is more liberated to do so.”
I will chat people up when I’m out and about, if the moment is right. Just friendly conversation. Could be anybody. So far, it’s never led to anything. But you never know.
“Knowing this tendency, you might spend more time with this good guy, developing into being attracted by him more?”
That’s never happened to me. I would be willing to try it, but I’d need to feel some level of “shazam” in the beginning. Some attraction.
“Sensors enjoy, and even limerent for their limerents’ pining eyes and attention on them ”
It sounds like they are limerent for the limerent’s attention. Different than being limerent for the limerent ?
“I disliked those type of guys very much, and I almost never compared or competed myself with any other women. My narcissism wanted my glimmered guy to be interested exclusively in me, his affection would be as strong and intense as mine for him.”
Well, the goal was … I’d blow all the other women out of the water. 🙂 It was, of course, a fantasy. I mean, I don’t want someone who gets no other attention. Just that he’s not courting it.
” I NEVER cared or sought to be liked, except by LOs.”
That’s exactly it. I’ve never sought to be “liked” either. To be appreciated and seen for who I am, maybe. But liked was never really on the list. Not that being liked is bad.
“But when Dad suddenly passed away, I slipped into LE, when LO was trying to console my unexpected loss”
That makes sense.
“LO is one of such a seeker (confessed and told me that his SO did, too). My feelings were already developed before any personal emails/texts (never phone calls) were written, etc… Now, I’ve learned my lesson in a long, hard way.”
That’s classic dodgy, attention-seeking LO behaivor. They’ll do emails/texts but not calls. They put all these parameters on what they do so they can claim they aren’t doing anything they shouldn’t. THey’re not crossing some arbitrary line they have come up with and not bothered to share with you.
“Oh at different places. Retreat, cafes, HS school, friends’ home. LO #7 was only one met at work and married.”
Oh, ok. For some reason, I thought they were all professors.
“LO looked like in his early 30s (47) when my glimmer took a place, I thought he would definitely have a girlfriend. People in my town get married late and many singles in all ages.”
Where do you live? 🙂 Where I live, I’d say much after 30/early 30s … forget it. Even if not married yet, they’re probably with someone. I think the average age for marriage in the U.S. for men is 30. It may be lower or higher, depending on the specific city or state.
“In return, girls would do something nice, like making a delicious meal (minimum 4 courses), to thank the said help.”
Four courses?! Can that meal be purchased at a restaurant? 🙂
“In COO, EA is not a vocabulary on relationship/marriage dictionary, so no SO cares about it, as long as there is no PA. ”
I think you and I have talked about this. I’d rather an SO had a PA with someone he didn’t care about than a EA with someone he did.
Miss Marcia,
I think I’ve just figure out something “new” that has been puzzling and bothering me: why do I desire to remain a platonic friend with LO, after knowing his Sensor natures, after what he had “demanded” me to be, and after he hoovered me back again and agin despite my firing at him for being a Narc (before LwL), and after he has lost his “sexual” appeal to me — nowadays I can’t imagine to get close to him physically, although his smiles still produce subtle ripples inside my chest??
In the past, I said that I still saw/felt “a piece of me” in him (unable to pin down what it is), or that familiarity I felt at the moment of glimmer. Now after I wrote you the previous messages, something struck me — It’s my narcissistic trait and some COO’s mindset that have been pushing me to keep this highly risky “friendship”, according to your views.
As I mentioned before, good friendship in my COO is much more valued and emotional affections between opposite sex (let’s just put aside LGBQT scenarios for now) are accepted, so most people try to keep lasting, platonic, and loyal friendship (without PA ever occurred). I’ve been a friend with several married men , including several my previous “limerents or suitors (all my HS or College classmates, 3 divorced). As a former LO, I have been a good friend to my former limerent friends, and we’ve been getting along well, along with their SOs.
Now, as a limerent, I cannot save or keep a platonic friendship with LO, because he is not from my COO, and I’m living on this side of the pond! This annoys me, besides saddening me. I thought about to prove it wrong that a limerent can’t be a friend to a former/current LO, my narcissism whispers that I could possibly make an exception, although I admit it’s possibly “dangerous” for me to be pulled back to my limerence, since it’s not 100% gone yet.
A bit rumination is still here: what if I am able to keep a friendship even if he relocates to another state? Nowadays there is no more limerence’s ups or downs, no pining or carving of any sort, and I feel very comfortable and natural just discussing with LO about topics raised from his class or just chitchatting. It feels like nothing unpleasant had ever happened between us. My forgiving nature seems also to have made me forgetful of all my previous sufferings — happened in all my previous smaller LEs.
To summarize the two points I try to convey here:
1. It’s unfair that as a LO, I can befriend with my limerents; but as a limerent, I cannot befriend with my LO. I would like to prove it wrong.
2. A platonic friendship is precious and valuable in my COO mindset; with a glimmer occurred once upon a time, it’s more so. I wish to change it from an unrequited limerence to unrequited love; why cannot it be done? I’m still a seasonal FWB with LO #5 without any worries, why not a platonic friendship with LO#7?
I know/see Romeo is smiling there! Am I too “greedy” to let go off any attractive man who has had some emotional “connections” w/ me but w/o ever PA??
Snow,
“I know/see Romeo is smiling there! Am I too “greedy” to let go off any attractive man who has had some emotional “connections” w/ me but w/o ever PA??”
You mean … do you have orbiters? 🙂
I think it’s nice that your COO values platonic friendship. The West does not. I wish it did. Much past your 20s … and it’s all family and romantic relationships. Friendship is at the bottom of the list.
But I don’t really know if I can relate with your situation. My guy friends were never LOs. I do not and never did have romantic feelings for them.
With the guys I did have romantic feelings for … if/when things didn’t work out, there was no reason to keep them in my life. We weren’t really friends. And, to be honest, if they were the ones who rejected me, why would I want someone in my life who rejected me?
Marcia,
“I didn’t necessarily mean a one-night stand. It just depends on how things go.”
Oh, I tried more than one-night standards, from 1 to 3 months. But nothing worked out, because the glimmer was absent.
” Some women need more connection; some men do, too. Too much emotional intimacy/knowledge of each other … and the opposite can happen … and you’re not as interested in sex.”
I think due to all those classical books I read, I could not separate affection with sex. I tried “pure” sex, but it didn’t help increase loving affection; the reverse happened — affection bettered SEs.
“That’s never happened to me. I would be willing to try it, but I’d need to feel some level of “Shazam” in the beginning. Some attraction.”
The same here; without glimmer, I could not even pretend to be interested. But I tried to unofficially go out with that single Buddhist professor who speaks my mother tongue and knows my COO well, still not enough affection being cultivated enough even for a PA (did not want to complicate our colleagueship)
“It sounds like they are limerent for the limerent’s attention. Different than being limerent for the limerent ?”
Precisely. The former is the “attention/affection”; the latter the person. I recognized “sparkle” in LO’s eyes when he first laid eyes on me (4 months after my glimmer) — he caught that I was glimmering at him, not me as a person. So later all those gazing, catching and hoovering for more of my affection — I attacked him on this in my angry email (last Fall apologized and retrieved), accusing his narcissistic behavior. I’d be fearless of anyone when I become mad. I was more angry at myself for not being able to kill my affection for a Narc (that time I didn’t know the concept of Sensor)
“To be appreciated and seen for who I am, maybe. But liked was never really on the list. Not that being liked is bad.”
We were/are on the same small boat!
“That’s classic dodgy, attention-seeking LO behaivor. They’ll do emails/texts but not calls. They put all these parameters on what they do so they can claim they aren’t doing anything they shouldn’t. THey’re not crossing some arbitrary line they have come up with and not bothered to share with you.”
You just described my LO’s behavior as if you had witnessed! All his emails and texts were “flawless”, except those vague, implicit preferences and “demands”. I realized that later, and accused him in my angry letter that he was wearing a well-crafted moral mask. But afterwards I was still stuck in my limerence.
“Oh, ok. For some reason, I thought they were all professors.”
Six out of nine were professors at different colleges, by chance.
“Where do you live? 🙂”
The biggest playground of singles, liberals and immigrants.… 10% of the population hold Christian faith, 3% in my neighborhood.
“Can that meal be purchased at a restaurant? 🙂”
NO! It has to be homemade, effort and skills count. So girls are trained to cook from an early age, me at 8. By 18, I could cook a banquet of 10 courses w/o Dad’s supervision. I enjoy cooking mostly for friends and dates, not myself so much.
“I think you and I have talked about this. I’d rather an SO had a PA with someone he didn’t care about than a EA with someone he did.”
I am on your side, since I’m born a limerent. But most COO women do not care about EA.
Marcia sister,
“You mean … do you have orbiters? 🙂”
No, not now, not here. Back in COO, yes, like light to moths… 😎
“I think it’s nice that your COO values platonic friendship. The West does not. I wish it did.”
In COO, platonic friendship is valued even more as we age. This is something I dislike most about the West, it feels cold, lonesome and alienated to live here.
“But I don’t really know if I can relate with your situation. My guy friends were never LOs. I do not and never did have romantic feelings for them.”
All my guy friends in COO are the same as yours — I did/do not ever have romantic feelings for them, but some of them had/have? for me. I was a good, caring “LO” friend to them.
“With the guys I did have romantic feelings for … if/when things didn’t work out, there was no reason to keep them in my life. “
That’s a difference between the West and COO. They could be a good platonic, so-so friend if personalities do not conflict with each other. In COO, loyal friendships are considered one’s valuable “assets”.
“And, to be honest, if they were the ones who rejected me, why would I want someone in my life who rejected me?”
This sounds like Western…. Most of my COO suitors are still in my life (distanced, of course) after I rejected them directly or indirectly. Perhaps they were/are able to like me for who I was/am, regardless I rejected them for a romantic connection. I respect and care for their big “heart” that has not walked away from me, who has always sought like-minded, lasting friendship since age of 4.
For the first and only time, I am in a situation pondering whether I could befriend with my flaws-loaded LO, when I am the limerent, and whether I could be like my COO old-flamed guy friends? Is my wounded ego-pride too fragile to keep Sensor LO in the picture (a long distance, of course)❓
It always helps clear up my muddled mind somewhat after speaking with you. 🫂
Snow,
“Oh, I tried more than one-night standards, from 1 to 3 months. But nothing worked out, because the glimmer was absent.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “the glimmer.” Maybe I’m not being clear.
To me, there’s a crush and there’s limerence. In that order of power.
I was limerent for my LO the minute I looked at him. I don’t know why, but it was a very powerful feeling. It knocked me over. Because it was so powerful, I was moved emotionally.
But I couldn’t feel an emotional connection to someone I didn’t know. I think emotional connection is something separate and takes time to develop. If there’s just emotional connection, it’s not enough for sex.
But if there’s limerence, that can keep the sex going for me. I have mistaken limerence for meaning emotional connection in the past.
But for sex, I would need at least a base-level attraction or a crush. Not necssarily full-blown limerence.
” I tried “pure” sex, but it didn’t help increase loving affection; the reverse happened — affection bettered SEs.”
Ideally, you do have the emotional connection. But just an emotional connection … that’s not enough to create attraction or a crush or limerence.
To me, it’s not “pure sex” if I’m attracted. Because I’ll still be moved, depending on the level of attraction. I write “moved,” not necessarily “in love with.” It’s “pure sex” if I’m not attracted and think … why not? I’ll do it. It’s an option. And that feels mechanical.
“The former is the “attention/affection”; the latter the person.”
You want to be careful of the former. They collect admirers.
“You just described my LO’s behavior as if you had witnessed! All his emails and texts were “flawless”, except those vague, implicit preferences and “demands”.”
They were vague for a reason. He was doing that on purpose.
“Six out of nine were professors at different colleges, by chance.”
That’s still 66%. 🙂
“The biggest playground of singles, liberals and immigrants.… 10% of the population hold Christian faith, 3% in my neighborhood.”
That sounds good to me.
“By 18, I could cook a banquet of 10 courses w/o Dad’s supervision. I enjoy cooking mostly for friends and dates, not myself so much.”
TEN COURSES? I’m getting tired just thinking about it. 🙂
“But most COO women do not care about EA.”
And I don’t know why because an EA is much more threatening.
Snow,
“This sounds like Western…. Most of my COO suitors are still in my life (distanced, of course) after I rejected them directly or indirectly. ”
I guess … the ones I rejected or the ones who rejected me … we weren’t friends. The possible romance is what we led with.
My guy friends, we were friends first. Some of them did express interest later on. When I said no, the friendships usually ended, their choice. Maybe romance was always their main agenda. Idk.
I only have a couple of guy friends left. Both expressed interest years ago. But we’re still friends. They are both dating other people now. Actually, I think one did express interest before we became better friends, and when I said no, we stayed friends, but that’s rare.
“For the first and only time, I am in a situation pondering whether I could befriend with my flaws-loaded LO”
I have to be honest … I’m not sure why you want to maintain contact. He led you on. He sounds narcissistic and a bit shady when it comes to women.
I would only maintain a friendship with someone who I genuniely liked and trusted. Unless you wanted to keep him as an email/text-only friend with occasional but very infrequent check-ins. A friendly acquaintance.
Marcia,
“I’m not sure what you mean by “the glimmer.” Maybe I’m not being clear.”
The glimmer from LwL terminology, but it’s more like your base-level attraction. There was a period, I was dating guys guy from dating apps, which would not bring glimmer ever to me but possibly a base-level attraction. So all those dates proceeded without glimmer or emotional connection or crush, but just a base-level attraction.
“I was limerent for my LO the minute I looked at him. I don’t know why, but it was a very powerful feeling. It knocked me over. Because it was so powerful, I was moved emotionally.”
I know your feeling, it’s from an instinctual level, deep and unconscious, irresistibly powerful!
All my glimmer took place within 5 after I laid my eyes on the stranger LO. It did not knock me over, but “loudly” turned on a switch in my head, I could feel its literal “click”. But limerence did not follow immediately. I believed I was limerent even before the glimmer hit.
“But I couldn’t feel an emotional connection to someone I didn’t know. I think emotional connection is something separate and takes time to develop.”
I felt drawn to a LO without knowing who he was, and why I could not take my eyes off him or remove him from my head. Once a glimmer hit, he occupied my entire brain and could only be completely kicked out by a following, more portent LO.
“If there’s just emotional connection, it’s not enough for sex.”
I have some emotional connection with for my guy friends, but zero sexual attraction. Emotions are separated from sex, I guess.
“But if there’s limerence, that can keep the sex going for me. I have mistaken limerence for meaning emotional connection in the past.”
Now think of it, all my previous LEs, except LE #4/marriage were like what you were describing here: having lust without enough love.
“But for sex, I would need at least a base-level attraction or a crush. Not necessarily full-blown limerence.”
The same here.
“Ideally, you do have the emotional connection. But just an emotional connection … that’s not enough to create attraction or a crush or limerence.”
In another word, emotional connection does not necessarily produce lusty desires for SE. Very true in my platonic friendship with guys.
“To me, it’s not “pure sex” if I’m attracted. Because I’ll still be moved, depending on the level of attraction. I write “moved,” not necessarily “in love with.”
I see what you mean. To me, if my heart was in it only 25-30%, then it’s “pure” sex.
“It’s “pure sex” if I’m not attracted and think … why not? I’ll do it. It’s an option. And that feels mechanical.”
This happened mostly with my one-night stand.
“You want to be careful of the former. They collect admirers.
That’s my Sensor LO — collecting admirers, limerent or not. Another reason I resisted getting into bed with him when an Ideal chance was presented…. to be honest, I’m still 50% proud, and 50% of regretful of my (in)action… that’s why I could only claim myself as a 50% Stoic. I wanted to be like a stereotyped French woman but couldn’t during that 2.5 hours…. My narcissistic pride in reasoning and “winning” surpassed my lusty desire to embrace LO. 😞
“They were vague for a reason. He was doing that on purpose.”
I wish I had known you earlier. I was so naive!… Well, there is a first time for everything.
“TEN COURSES? I’m getting tired just thinking about it. 🙂”
I made several times (from 3-4 hours) for SO’s family and friends’ gathering, 8-10 people at a time during holidays. 🍲🍱🥘🍛
“But most COO women do not care about EA.”
And I don’t know why because an EA is much more threatening.”
How could they care if they don’t even have a concept or vocabulary for EA?? COO women are not as “progressed” as in the West… A majority of marriage is still a social and economical “matching” tie, not based on romanticism. Some guys even have several LOs with PAs, but would not divorce their wife, about which SOs also don’t make a fuss as long as her comfort and provision is secured through the “died” marital bed.
Snow,
“I felt drawn to a LO without knowing who he was, and why I could not take my eyes off him or remove him from my head. Once a glimmer hit, he occupied my entire brain and could only be completely kicked out by a following, more portent LO.”
I felt the same way, but that’s not emotional connection. At least how I define it. I didn’t know my LO. Emotional connection is separate, for me, from the limerence. Emotional connection is really knowing who they are as a person and vice versa.
“Now think of it, all my previous LEs, except LE #4/marriage were like what you were describing here: having lust without enough love.”
I wouldn’t use the word “lust” to replace limerence. Limerence is more powerful and much more rare. You can feel attracted to/lustful for a number of people; limerence hyper focuses attention on the limerent. But it’s not love. I’m not sure it’s possible to “love” while “limerent” as you can’t see the person clearly until the limerence dies down.
“I wanted to be like a stereotyped French woman but couldn’t during that 2.5 hours”
Do you mean you’d be able to have the affair and then go back to your life, as if nothing happened? I was reading something actress Greta Garbo and she had lovers, male and female, throughout her life. Some of the relationships went on for years, on and off, and they overlapped each other. Her lovers had other relationships, too. She prized her freedom more than anything. I always wanted to be like that, but I’m not. I get fixated on one person and that’s who I want. I want him to want me and only me. At least in the very beginning. I have a more romantic sensibility than an artistic/progressive sensibility when it comes relationships.
“…. My narcissistic pride in reasoning and “winning” surpassed my lusty desire to embrace LO. 😞”
I’m not sure what you mean.
“I made several times (from 3-4 hours) for SO’s family and friends’ gathering, 8-10 people at a time during holidays. 🍲🍱🥘🍛”
And what did your SO do? What did he contribute? 🙂
“A majority of marriage is still a social and economical “matching” tie, not based on romanticism. Some guys even have several LOs with PAs, but would not divorce their wife, about which SOs also don’t make a fuss as long as her comfort and provision is secured through the “died” marital bed.”
I think there are a lot of Western marriages like that. They have a home together, finances are intertwined, they have children, extended family/inlaws, a place in the community … they won’t ever divorce.
I don’t see a ton of happy, long-term marriage. I use the word “happy.” Or fulfilling. A soul mate type, years later. Still really loving and enjoying each other.
Snow,
” limerence hyper focuses attention on the limerent”
I meant to write “limerence hyper focuses attention on the LO.”
“My guy friends, we were friends first. Some of them did express interest later on. When I said no, the friendships usually ended, their choice. Maybe romance was always their main agenda. Idk.”
It happened to me, too. I felt sad when that happened because I always liked to keep a good friendship especially with good-manned, feminine, erudite, introvert men. Now I understand better why they had to leave — probably “painful” for them.
“I have to be honest … I’m not sure why you want to maintain contact. He led you on. He sounds narcissistic and a bit shady when it comes to women.”
I’ve been asking myself the same questions again and again a thousand times! By reasoning, I can give you a list why I SHOULD NOT, but a part of me just feels SAD thinking that this biggest LO is going to vanish completely from my life. (It has got much less sadder while keeping chatting with you)
The only “reason” I already talked about is NOT logical, but something I do not understand — sensing/seeing a small part of me in him (perhaps that familiarity I felt when the glimmer hit 7 years ago and never went away❓), which makes me feel like I’d have to abandon a piece of myself if I go a total NC after May. Is this unfathomable sense a part of limerence⁉️
Nowadays when he directly faced/chatted with me in the office or his class, I don’t see that familiarity (by my logical mind?), but feeling more distanced (LE has all gone❓), except when he genuinely smiles — not flirty at all. He has not thrown those intense gazes at me for over two years, so it feels friendly. This additional “expose therapy” makes me question why it is NOT possible to maintain a friendship/acquaintance with him. ⁉️
I talked about it before that since I had no siblings (begged my parents in vain) and felt so lonely (Parents were ignoring me), I realized around 7 that my only “choice” left was to make more friends for myself. That became my fixated goal — the biggest purpose for living. Later, if friends, men or women, made through my efforts, have to leave the town for career or family, I always felt deeply manlycholy and sighed eternally.
And by Fate, all my close gf + guy friends have left one by one (except LO#5), it’s a transitional city for many, so I’ve got an army of long-distance friends, now added “ghost” ones 👻👻👻 Perhaps this is another reason I wish LO #7 could be a friend nearby, although he may relocate as well.
“I would only maintain a friendship with someone who I genuniely liked and trusted. Unless you wanted to keep him as an email/text-only friend with occasional but very infrequent check-ins. A friendly acquaintance.”
Very good advice! Knowing his narcissistic traits, his deceitful capability (white and black lies), his vanity and insecurity, and my deep distrust in his shadiness with women, I still cannot help like LO #7 as a flawed person, not a LO anymore, how idiotic I am! I even no longer care about whether he ever had some genuine affection for me or not — is this due to my LE’s fading or my extreme self-centeredness? (during LE I rarely cared about what he thought or felt as a person, I was mostly in my “inner child” mode)
Since we both are leaving our jobs, the only possible contact would be just occasional email/text-only. I don’t think he’s very sentimental or value friendship the way I do, and he’d never say No to me or anyone else. He’s a Sensor who would keep all his “orbiters” (both men and women as he once wrote) in his fuel matrix. Sometimes, I feel very sorry for his insecurity, which I have little aside from cptsd symptoms.
“I didn’t know my LO. Emotional connection is separate, for me, from the limerence. Emotional connection is really knowing who they are as a person and vice versa. “
I agree with you here. Attraction to LO is not emotional connection. Years of chitchats with LO can still make some superficial emotional connection, but it would die eventually once physical contact is removed.
“I wouldn’t use the word “lust” to replace limerence. Limerence is more powerful and much more rare. “
The word “lust” in my previous message is inaccurate. You’re right that limerence is the way more powerful, beyond just the instinctual pair-bonding drive. It craves and obsesses for DEEP emotional reciprocation, and even sexual connection could not remove that craving and obsession (in my LE #5, 6)
“You can feel attracted to/lustful for a number of people”
Not me. I don’t think I’m asexual, but I rarely felt attracted to/lustful for other men, unless they are LOs. I could spot and apprecaite many attractive, good looking men in public, but never viewed any guy as “hot”. Some actors appear “hot” in screen, but it’s not real to my naked eyes. It might be due to COO’s oppressive conditioning, worse than catholic when it comes to romance and lust matters.
“limerence hyper focuses attention on LO. But it’s not love. I’m not sure it’s possible to “love” while “limerent” as you can’t see the person clearly until the limerence dies down. “
After learning from LwL and reflecting on my own LEs, I totally agree with you that Limerence is NOT love. It’s Eros based, but love includes other 6 types.
“Do you mean you’d be able to have the affair and then go back to your life, as if nothing happened? “
I don’t think I’d be able to, that’s one of reasons I could and did resist the temptation. But I’ve never done something like that, so can’t be 100% sure what would have happened if I did “lose my control” during the hours. I could have one-night stand with a date, but not with a LO!! I prefer a long-term in any meaningful relationship, which is impossible with a coupled LO.
I want to be like Greta Garbo, or a stereotyped French woman as well, and I could have collected lovers if I wanted to. But I was puzzled and annoyed that I was unable to, I was always so fixated on LO only at a time. When a private LO existed, no other public men “existed”. However, my “inflamed” eyes, hyper energy, and aliveness would draw other men closer (got more male’s attention just in street), even making them mistaking I was “in love” with them, which caused seriously embarrasing misunderstandings on them (a couple of HS & college classmates).
“I have a more romantic sensibility than an artistic/progressive sensibility when it comes relationships.”
I think due to my cptsd and very-active inner child, I’ve been really self-centered, not sensible to others’ emotional states, romantic or otherwise. I was clueless sometime what was going on with others’ mind or emotions.
“…. My narcissistic pride in reasoning and “winning” surpassed my lusty desire to embrace LO. “ I’m not sure what you mean.”
During that time, I still thought LO was a Midrange, Type A, Elite narc (not just narcissistic, which everyone is in various degrees) and was trying to lead me onto his fuel matrix just as another piece of trophy. If I gave in and had a casual sex with him, he would “WIN” his sport! My own narcissistic-Pride would and could not allow that to happen, despite I was consciously lusty for him by time (after his LO appeared). You see, my narcissistic traits could even beat up my pair-bonding desire for my long-limerented LO‼️ Needless to say, it worked to prevent a possible disaster….
It was also the primary reason that I resist a disclose, to indirectly affirm or “glorify” his Winning in his attractive prowess and leading-on skills. He can guess whatever he likes. He says that he does not know the term “limerence” and has not yet read the article on NYT.
“And what did your SO do? What did he contribute? “
Drove me around to shop for particular food supplies and helped with dishes (he could barely cook any gourmet dish). I hate doing dishes(Mom slapped my face several times when I did 5-10 minutes late) or cleaning house.
“I think there are a lot of Western marriages like that. They have a home together, finances are intertwined, they have children, extended family/inlaws, a place in the community … they won’t ever divorce.”
It’s true. That’s where I see “zombies” in those couples’ eyes. I would rather remain single but alive, without depression bouts, which I hope my meditation could help reduce, at least in intensity if not elimination.
“I don’t see a ton of happy, long-term marriage. I use the word “happy.” Or fulfilling. A soul mate type, years later. Still really loving and enjoying each other.”
Happy, long-term marriage seems to exist mainly on screen or in books — directors and writers’ wish for our entire humanity! 🦙
Snowphoenix,
“It happened to me, too. I felt sad when that happened because I always liked to keep a good friendship especially with good-manned, feminine, erudite, introvert men.”
We have a very different type. 🙂
But … I felt manipulated. If they were interested romantically, they should have made that clear right away. Unless they developed those feelings over time. But we often discussed women they were dating and guys I liked … it seemed like a friendship to me. I would not have revealed certain things to them if I had not thought it was a friendship. And, honestly, after being told they were dating other women and discussing their techniques at seducing them … why would I be interested? The emperor has no clothes! 🙂
“Now I understand better why they had to leave — probably “painful” for them.”
Possibly. But many, as I wrote, were dating other women. Some were married! I doubt they were pining over me.
“I’ve been asking myself the same questions again and again a thousand times! By reasoning, I can give you a list why I SHOULD NOT, but a part of me just feels SAD thinking that this biggest LO is going to vanish completely from my life.”
I mean, it’s overwhelming to think an LO won’t be in your life. But … ask yourself … What will you really be losing if he’s not in your life? … What does he bring to your life RIGHT NOW ( not years ago, but right now)? How often do you spend time together? How often do you talk on the phone? (Texting and email are a bit distant.) How close do you feel to him? Is he a confidante?
” Is this unfathomable sense a part of limerence⁉️”
Yes. 🙂 Limerence makes one feel a connection, a recognition. But often it’s not there.
Sometimes it may be. But often not.
“This additional “expose therapy” makes me question why it is NOT possible to maintain a friendship/acquaintance with him. ⁉️”
You can, if you honestly think it’s just not an attempt to keep the limerence going. I personally don’t spend a lot of time maintaining acquaintanceships. Here and there, I’ll text, if someone texts me, but I don’t find those types of friendship all that satisfying.
“That became my fixated goal — the biggest purpose for living. Later, if friends, men or women, made through my efforts, have to leave the town for career or family, I always felt deeply manlycholy and sighed eternally.”
I know exactly what you are talking about. But friendship … Idk. It’s not a relationship you can count on. It ebbs and flows and sometimes disappears altogether, depending on what people have going on in their lives. Any major life change on either side will disrupt its already shaky foundations.
“Perhaps this is another reason I wish LO #7 could be a friend nearby, although he may relocate as well.”
Are you relocating or staying where you are in May? Is he?
” Years of chitchats with LO can still make some superficial emotional connection, but it would die eventually once physical contact is removed.”
Yeah, but you need more than chitchat to really get to know someone. You have to spend time with them, learn who they are, share who you are. And, really, you find out so much about someone when you go through something big. Are they supportive? Do they show up?
“I could spot and apprecaite many attractive, good looking men in public, but never viewed any guy as “hot”. ”
Yeah, I see what you mean. I’m rarely “attracted” to guys. That giddy, excited feeling. Though I can find men attractive. Those are two different things.
“After learning from LwL and reflecting on my own LEs, I totally agree with you that Limerence is NOT love.”
And I thought it was. But it isn’t.
“I could have one-night stand with a date, but not with a LO!! ”
I mean, you technically could have had a one-night stand with your LO, but from what you’ve written, you’d be craving so much more.
“I was clueless sometime what was going on with others’ mind or emotions.”
I was clueless if I wasn’t interested and maybe they were. Or maybe not paying as much attention as I should have. Maybe these guy freinds gave me hints and I was oblivious or dismissed them. However, if I was interested, I was always trying to glean information about their mind and emotions! 🙂
“During that time, I still thought LO was a Midrange, Type A, Elite narc (not just narcissistic, which everyone is in various degrees) and was trying to lead me onto his fuel matrix just as another piece of trophy. If I gave in and had a casual sex with him, he would “WIN” his sport! ”
I had a semi-LO years ago, who floated in and out of my life for years, who sounds somewhat similar to yours. I knew he had many other women in his orbit, but I would have probably gone with it if something had happened. At that time in my life, I would have seen seducing him as “winning.” 🙂 Ultimately, I think it would have hurt me, as you wrote about yours, but at the time, in the moment, I would have grabbed the chance.
“Mom slapped my face several times when I did 5-10 minutes late) or cleaning house.”
Your mother sounds awful. I got spanked a couple of times that I remember, but it was only if I’d done something really bad. I think I got slapped once, too.
“That’s where I see “zombies” in those couples’ eyes.”
I believe in monogamy. I don’t know if I believe it in as lasting forever. Maybe serial monogamy. When things die or people change or someone develops really strong feelings for someone else … maybe it’s time to move on.
But, then, I don’t have kids.
“Happy, long-term marriage seems to exist mainly on screen or in books — directors and writers’ wish for our entire humanity! 🦙 ”
I think they do exist in real life, but I don’t think it’s common.
Miss Marcia,
“We have a very different type. “
I can’t deal with extrovert, flamboyant, superficial thinkers (like Butler) as close friends, but as acquaintances, perhaps to flirt with.
“But … I felt manipulated. If they were interested romantically, they should have made that clear right away. Unless they developed those feelings over time. “
Sometimes, people do not know their emotions clearly or develop later as you say. Whether manipulated or not is subjective to our mind, based on a set of social norms. That’s where my semi-Stoic mindset could aim my feelings.
“But we often discussed women they were dating and guys I liked … it seemed like a friendship to me. I would not have revealed certain things to them if I had not thought it was a friendship. “
With my COO friends, even married, we could discuss various topics superficially. Again, my romantic life is not on the table, it’s my private, tightly guarded thingy.
“And, honestly, after being told they were dating other women and discussing their techniques at seducing them … why would I be interested? The emperor has no clothes! “
It’s a taboo topic with both male or female, unless with FWB, which I only have one in town, LO #5. I feel zero jealousy to listen to his dating life or SE intimacy. During my LE #5, I once bought a bottle of sleeping pills, but did not attempt to take any; instead i took anti-depressants for a while. That shows how dead is my LE #5, in which a glimmer never took place (he’s from a dating app)
“But many, as I wrote, were dating other women. Some were married! I doubt they were pining over me.”
With my situations in the past, their (no married or coupled) goal, explicitly expressed or not, was clear. And my attitude was never vague if they were not a LO. Luckily, they are all in long-distance. Before pandemic, a married college classmate suddenly dropped in my town (through a conference in Canada), compelled me to tour him in town. (I was always very hospitable to COO folks). He’d fell in limerence with me a year prior when I led a Study Abroad program in COO, but I had no clue. I had to treat him politely but cold-firmly, otherwise, he’d have forced his way into my apartment for 3 day stay! Later our mutual classmate in Canada told me how hurt he was…. I was furious!
“I mean, it’s overwhelming to think an LO won’t be in your life. But … ask yourself … What will you really be losing if he’s not in your life? … “
A chunk of something (emotional attachment❓❓)inside me. I never expected that much realistically from him, as I repeated many times here. His existence and seeing him a couples of times a week was enough for me. He did lent me his EAR for a lot of my complaints.
“What does he bring to your life RIGHT NOW ( not years ago, but right now)? How often do you spend time together? How often do you talk on the phone? (Texting and email are a bit distant.) How close do you feel to him? Is he a confidante?”
Not much at all. We do not spend anytime outside work. We never spoke on phone. Since last spring I occasionally texted, he rarely responded (besides holiday greetings, etc). But I still feel close to him, because he WAS a confidant-silent therapist (of my deep thoughts mostly, especially all painful ones in relating to my cptsd, Mom, my dreams… not much reality stuff) before last April, before I tried to serve the tie between the Phantom and LO in person. After then, my monologues reduced sharply until zero in June. Then I found LwL in July.
“Limerence makes one feel a connection, a recognition. But often it’s not there. Sometimes it may be. But often not.”
Well, after over 2000 missives/monologues near 6 years (excluding 1st year), you tell me whether it’s illusive or not? It came to a point that I simply felt comfortable and safe to say whatever I wished. He just listened without responses of any kind. At work, we interacted like good colleague/friends.
”You can, if you honestly think it’s just not an attempt to keep the limerence going. I personally don’t spend a lot of time maintaining acquaintanceships. “
At this point, I feel it’s not the limerence anymore (maybe still little bit), because I feel a sense of calm when I think of LO. It feels like some kind of friendship. At work, we occasionally discussed a bit about contents I occasionally revealed in . But It has always been one-way traffic. I know almost nothing of his inside, his lips were/are zipped. Well, as a semi-Stoic, I can’t demand to know and don’t demand or even request to know. It’s his business, up to his willingness to share or not.
“Here and there, I’ll text, if someone texts me, but I don’t find those types of friendship all that satisfying.”
I found my conception of friendship is quite different from people here. In this culture, it seems very rigid; and I often do not follow cultural scripts of both the East and West. I have made my own rules along the way, as long as they don’t hurt myself and others. LO once said, “You are very different from everyone else I know.” He knows my Stoic and Buddhistic practices in my interactions with others and him.
“I know exactly what you are talking about. But friendship … Idk. It’s not a relationship you can count on. It ebbs and flows and sometimes disappears altogether, depending on what people have going on in their lives. Any major life change on either side will disrupt its already shaky foundations.”
Very different notions between my COO and here. A true friendship, once established, is never shaky; it’s is more like life-time fraternity or sorority, and won’t disappear, regardless what’s going on in their lives. We could count on substantial relationship, otherwise, it’s not good one. For instance, my COO friends would never let me end up in street, if I go bankruptcy. I can ask them for anything, but not romance!
“Are you relocating or staying where you are in May? Is he?”
I am staying, I like here best plus Mom is settled. He’s still looking for a job, hasn’t landed one yet.
”Yeah, but you need more than chitchat to really get to know someone. You have to spend time with them, learn who they are, share who you are. And, really, you find out so much about someone when you go through something big. Are they supportive? Do they show up?”
Hmmm, It sounds a bit demanding here, I can’t befriend at the level you described, he’s already coupled. (meanwhile, I was/am not close my door to other possibilities). LO has been mentally and spiritually supportive in any progress in my life, superficial perhaps based on my wishes or your definition. When I went through something big like my thyroidectomy during pandemic, he was on instant texting with me. Of course, he could not be present physically. LO #5 was helping me as well.
“I totally agree with you that Limerence is NOT love.” “And I thought it was. But it isn’t.”
I did NOT know what it WAS, (I did not have a clear sense of Eros, compared to other 6 types of love) only it was fixated in my head 24/7. Again, I also have had OCD for long, so I blamed my ruminations to OCD.
“I could have one-night stand with a date, but not with a LO!! ” “I mean, you technically could have had a one-night stand with your LO, but from what you’ve written, you’d be craving so much more.”
Yes, I forgot to mention this point in my previous message — that’s another HUGE concern. I sensed that I would crave much more if I had one-night with him because it could not be carried on regularly. It’s better to leave an unknown to unknowns, at least to keep some curiosity alive on both sides.
I also mentioned, if I let PA happen prior to my desired EA, I’d feel being taken advantage by this “Narc” LO. I also “declared” to him twice that in general if I sensed 1% of unwillingness on other side, I would not go into any “matter” with the other side. Other side is either zero or 100% in; by that time, his LO was already in the picture, I could not Unseen what I saw.
Also at work, it would make our interactions really awkward. Without crossing that line, it still could be technically considered “pure”“colleagueship/friendship”. Later last spring when there were possibilities, he hinted twice that he’d follow if I lead casually. But “seeing” he’s secretively dealing with his LO on phone, text, and regular rendezvous, I backed up and declared “cut off” in person.
“However, if I was interested, I was always trying to glean information about their mind and emotions! “
Of course. My six senses were all perked up towards LOs; then ruminated those classical detective and endless interpretations in my daydreaming.
“I had a semi-LO years ago, who floated in and out of my life for years, who sounds somewhat similar to yours. I knew he had many other women in his orbit, but I would have probably gone with it if something had happened. At that time in my life, I would have seen seducing him as “winning.”
Perhaps because he was a semi-LO, not a full one. My limerence was always very intense, exclusive, and I never actively seduced or pursued guys due to my COO upbringing. I did get on some dating apps here for a period of time then gave up totally. I just could not glimmer at APP guys, it only came from unexpected situations.
If I knew a LO (single, not from app) had an ongoing gf/SO, I’d back up immediately, no mater how painful it would be. I was “quietly” yet obviously (to my coworkers at another job) limerent for a Ph.d graduate student who was working for me, for 6 months before I found out he had a gf. I backed up cold-turkey, and missed 4 menstruations in a row and had to find a herbiest to bring it out in 3 days — that’s a manifested stress level!
“Ultimately, I think it would have hurt me, as you wrote about yours, but at the time, in the moment, I would have grabbed the chance.”
I know myself better due to my previous LEs. I want(ed) to be Garbo, but incapable due to my cptsd deep fear for even perceived Abandonment Melange. But some regrets still remain within me for the lost chance. Well, C’est la vie! Now, without PA, at least, I could hope a little for a friendship with LO when LE completely dies.
“I believe in monogamy. I don’t know if I believe it in as lasting forever. Maybe serial monogamy. “
Yes, monogamy at a time is definitely possible; forever? No! Marriage should allow some space and freedom for “far-n-near” emotional states. Divorce is not necessary. I didn’t think this way when insisting on my divorce; I would do it differently if now.
“I think they do exist in real life, but I don’t think it’s common.”
I used the word “primarily”. I know and saw its existence, as couples claimed. But their definition of happiness might quite different from mine.
🫂
Snow,
“I can’t deal with extrovert, flamboyant, superficial thinkers (like Butler) as close friends, but as acquaintances, perhaps to flirt with.”
And I can’t deal with introverted. I only have so much time left on this planet. I want someone who’s fun. 🙂
“Whether manipulated or not is subjective to our mind, based on a set of social norms. ”
Well … my norm is … if that’s what they wanted, they should have said something right away. They obviously felt different. I was disappointed that that’s all they wanted and the friendships imploded after I said no. (Not all but most.)
“With my COO friends, even married, we could discuss various topics superficially. ”
But you thought of these people as friends, even though you spoke superficially? I had work acquaintances I spoke with superficially (or some not, it just depended), but with the guys I became friends with, we texted/sometimes talked on the phone/sometimes hung out oustide of work and we talked about the women who broke their hearts, the women they were dating, their families, their parents, etc. I have to have some kind of “sharing and caring” to feel like we’re friends and our communications/interactions have to move beyond the work setting.
“That shows how dead is my LE #5, in which a glimmer never took place (he’s from a dating app)”
I don’t understand how there was an LE if the glimmer never took place.
“With my situations in the past, their (no married or coupled) goal, explicitly expressed or not, was clear. And my attitude was never vague if they were not a LO. ”
If my guy friends were married or coupled up, I didn’t feel I needed to express anything. They were married. I thought there were boundaries in place. I was naive.
“Later our mutual classmate in Canada told me how hurt he was…. I was furious!”
Why furious? Because you had made it clear you weren’t interested?
“Not much at all. We do not spend anytime outside work. We never spoke on phone. Since last spring I occasionally texted, he rarely responded (besides holiday greetings, etc)”
I’m confused why you were texting if he was not responding or not initiating contact himself.
“But I still feel close to him, because he WAS a confidant-silent therapist”
A therapist will eventually say something every now and then.
“Well, after over 2000 missives/monologues near 6 years (excluding 1st year), you tell me whether it’s illusive or not?”
When was the last time he responded? It has to be reciprocal, and I think recently reciprocal. It’s possible to be close to someone at one point and have less closeness later.
” It feels like some kind of friendship. At work, we occasionally discussed a bit about contents I occasionally revealed in . But It has always been one-way traffic. I know almost nothing of his inside, his lips were/are zipped.”
I just think it’s hard to befriend someone if they aren’t giving/revealing much.
“It’s his business, up to his willingness to share or not.”
It is, but a close freindship requires reciprocal sharing, IMO.
That is what I meant when I wrote that I didn’t have emotional connection with my LO. He didn’t share that much, and I didn’t either. We talked very superficially most of the time.
” I often do not follow cultural scripts of both the East and West.”
You don’t have to follow the script, but I haven’t found anyone else who doesn’t, at least in the West.
” For instance, my COO friends would never let me end up in street, if I go bankruptcy. I can ask them for anything, but not romance!”
That I would consider a very close friendship. I have no friends like that.
“Of course, he could not be present physically. ”
Why not? He couldn’t offer to drive you home from the hospital or offer to drop you off some food if you weren’t up to going shopping and cooking? “Showing up” doesn’t always have to be physically doing something. But texting (which I’ve had people do when I was sick or recovering) is not nothing, but it’s the easiest/lowest effort.
“at least to keep some curiosity alive on both sides.”
Coming out of my last LE … my curiosity dies if it won’t be sated. 🙂
“Also at work, it would make our interactions really awkward.”
That’s true.
“But “seeing” he’s secretively dealing with his LO on phone, text, and regular rendezvous, I backed up and declared “cut off” in person.”
That would have turned me off, too.
“Perhaps because he was a semi-LO, not a full one.”
He would appear, and I’d get all fixated on him. And then he’d circle out and I’d move on to someone else. Not without the longing and the mourning. But I think moving on (fairly quickly) and not stopping my life for months or even years was actually healthier.
” My limerence was always very intense, exclusive, and I never actively seduced or pursued guys due to my COO upbringing.”
I tried. 🙂 And then I thought he was trying much later on, but I wasn’t going to make a pass twice. It was up to him.
“I know myself better due to my previous LEs. I want(ed) to be Garbo, but incapable due to my cptsd deep fear for even perceived Abandonment Melange. ”
I have that as well. The abandonment stuff.
“Marriage should allow some space and freedom for “far-n-near” emotional states.”
I don’t know what you mean.
I meant … no marriage at all. No mingling of finances. When/if things run their course, you move on. It may last forever. It may not.
Marcia,
I think my current feelings towards the permanent departure from LO might be like —
A surrogate kid is leaving her surrogate parent for college, despite the parent did not parent her much, except leading his Ear. The kid has healed some of her aged wounds from her birth parents, matured, strengthened by her own self-reflection under his ear.
The kid also harbored limerent passion for the said surrogate parent along the way, found his narcissistic, shady flaws, even being misled by his vanity, which worsened her limerence….. So a mixture of feelings is welled up….
Still, when uncontrollable circumstances changes, the kid has to depart. Only emotionally cutting off seven years of “surrogate parenting” tie is not a light psychological matter…. Understandable ❓
Coaching Romeo in one hour! ⚡️
Snow,
“I think my current feelings towards the permanent departure from LO might be like —Understandable ❓”
Yes, absolutely.
I wasn’t trying to be a pain in the ass. It just doesn’t sound like he’s been that good of a friend.
“Coaching Romeo in one hour! ⚡️”
Look in the medicene cabinent! 🙂
Marcia,
“And I can’t deal with introverted. I only have so much time left on this planet. I want someone who’s fun. 🙂”
I like extroverts, too. But it’s hard to carry on long conversations with them. I enjoy fun dialogues with substantial contents. If only superficial fun, I got bored soon.
“Well … my norm is … if that’s what they wanted, they should have said something right away. They obviously felt different.”
It’s a very delicate matter, heart involved. Everyone is afraid of rejection, be it ego or vulnerability. My COO suitors almost never expressed their emotions, they showed their emotions through “laborious” actions, their time and attention for you, and some gifts. Expressing emotion is not a part of COO, as I discussed this in length with Sammy.
“But you thought of these people as friends, even though you spoke superficially?
By our discussion here and with Sammy, it’s clear that notions of substantial and superficial friendship — what do they talk, do, and care about, between COO and the West is SHAPELY different. In COO, only talking IS “superficial”, but actions speak LOUDER.
“I had work acquaintances I spoke with superficially (or some not, it just depended), but with the guys I became friends with, we texted/sometimes talked on the phone/sometimes hung out oustide of work and we talked about the women who broke their hearts, the women they were dating, their families, their parents, etc. “
We talk about most of these issues, too (via social media), maybe not as extensive, particularly limited in each other’s romantic life — again, it’s a TABOO topic between opposite sex in many countries in the EAST.
“I have to have some kind of “sharing and caring” to feel like we’re friends and our communications/interactions have to move beyond the work setting.”
Of course. I know. I do the same on this of the pond. I am culturally and mentally androgynous, but emotions are hard to be androgynous; I’m more Western.
“I don’t understand how there was an LE if the glimmer never took place.”
LO#5 aroused my deep sympathy at the first sight. He’s very good-looking, feminine (loads of tears in front of me), smart, erudite (only in theory), artistic, (Lit. prof. + singer-song writer), rule-breaker, and a good liar, too (found out later). I spent a whole night in his place on our first date, after one week of chatting on a dating app. Later, my attachment developed, despite our different interests and goals in life, and he’s a bit too “local” — uninterested in other cultures, including my COO, dislike physical travels, only in mind.
“If my guy friends were married or coupled up, I didn’t feel I needed to express anything. They were married. I thought there were boundaries in place. I was naive.”
In COO, there are rooms for married couples to have their own friends, close is okay, as long as no PA. Married guys I am friends with are faithful to their wives, as far as I know. They’d drive 2-3 hours in early dawn to airport to pick me up, if I suddenly drop in their town (it happened once when my plane was seriously delayed.) Their SOs may be worried sometimes but know I’m not the person who would cross boundaries (my reputation on this arena is spotless). Loyal friendship is more important than “fleeting emotions stuff”, as they call it.
“Why furious? Because you had made it clear you weren’t interested?”
We are in the same group in a social media, he never mentioned or privately hinted his affections for me. Then out of blue he announced he’s coming to town, one day before his arrival. I could not say NO to a COO classmate, although I did not know him well back at school and he was simply unattractive from any perspective — a doormat, puppy dog type, and has little of his own mind.
He then daringly asked whether he could stay with me, NO! I quickly found an affordable hotel for him. After arriving, he pressured to tour him around, it was a weekend. I invited him over for breakfast and toured him a little bit. When he hinted a dinner together, I said I already had other engagement. While departing from him at a metro stop, he tried to hug me saying a goodbye, I backed up, NO. He almost begged, “come on, just give me one hug!” I raised my voice, “NO!” and started to move my body around avoid his physical chasing. His face turned red, and a female bystander could barely hold her laugh. I was very agitated by then and felt I’d get a physical attack if I allowed him to hug me!
Imagine if I let him stay in my place for a couple of nights? (I often offered my tiny extra room for visitor friends)? I totally believed that he could have raped me (although he’s not that big)! Limerence could literally drive a limerent out of his mind! I never had a limerent this much “uncivilized!”
“I’m confused why you were texting if he was not responding or not initiating contact himself.”
“It’s a long story, about which I talked a lot with Sammy. I was talking/monologuing to the idealized Phantom of LO, not the realistic LO. His mail/text address is just a tool that allowed me to fantasize and produce/direct a whole show with the Phantom in my head. The real LO was a passive watcher. I did not need (of course, I’d love to have) his responses; otherwise, I could not imagine whatever I wanted to “paint on a blank canvas”….
“A therapist will eventually say something every now and then.”
Of course, he did reply whenever he tried to hoover me back when I was backing up (6 rounds). He said once in person when I was pulling away, “You think you’ve just thrown pebbles to the cosmos, but there was a real person on this side and could get affected.” He never told me how he was affected and I don’t know what effects my words had created.
“When was the last time he responded? It has to be reciprocal, and I think recently reciprocal. It’s possible to be close to someone at one point and have less closeness later.”
The day after Valentine’s Day, then we had tea and cake together a week later, two days after I glimmered at Romeo. I never said I wanted a close friendship with LO, just wish he would not vanish totally after May.
“I just think it’s hard to befriend someone if they aren’t giving/revealing much.”
I know your practical views, but I was not after a practical friendship with LO, more like spiritual or artistic one, outside of most cultural scripts.
“You don’t have to follow the script, but I haven’t found anyone else who doesn’t, at least in the West.”
LO #5 is one; but we are not compatible, although we remain so-so friends who could discuss all kinds of topics; not regularly texting or chatting; emotional connection has been lost ever since LO #7 appeared —a LE transference took place instantly.
”That I would consider a very close friendship. I have no friends like that.”
I have four guy friends like that, but we hardly talk to each other, although we could whenever we feel like through social media, or when we get together in person.
“Why not? He couldn’t offer to drive you home from the hospital or offer to drop you off some food if you weren’t up to going shopping and cooking? “
LO #7 lives in a suburb with some distance, and had to care for his SO and 2 teenage daughters back then. LO #5 lives closer to me, so he physically helped. Mom helped me a bit when I could barely move with my neck “framed.”
“Coming out of my last LE … my curiosity dies if it won’t be sated. 🙂”
My curiosity scope is quite large, that’s an attraction of unknowns.
“But I think moving on (fairly quickly) and not stopping my life for months or even years was actually healthier.”
Absolutely. Again, I did not choose my LO#7, but my glimmer. I was dealing with cptsd triggered by Dad’s death and Mom’s arrival, worsening physical illness, and pandemic, so LO #7 served as a “therapist, surrogate parent” at a very challenging period in my life. I’m grateful overall. Every single matter in life has at least two sides, if not 5 or 6, one needs to accept all sides with peace and appropriate gratitude. 🕊️
“I have that as well. The abandonment stuff.”
If I’m totally healed from cptsd, I think I could live like Garbo.
“Marriage should allow some space and freedom for “far-n-near” emotional states.”
I don’t know what you mean.“
I only think about it in theory: it’s like allowing a certain degree of polygamy (not FWB) from time to time, if one party or both naturally “fall” into it for a period of time, and then come back to the marital partner…. Then perhaps a marriage could stay healthier and refreshed? Never tried or know anyone in that boat, just a thought. 🧐
During that 8 moths of “hoovering” time, LO actually told me that he and his SO both had several of their own “friendships”, respectively, “then we’d come back getting closer and stronger”…. I thought he was telling me he and his SO both had separate PA, so it’s okay I could go ahead to have one with him. But I told him I did not want to and could not go into anything “casual”. (Unaware of my cptsd and limerence)
But later, after his LO appearance, he denied he ever had PA with any other women. By then I did not believe anything he told me, and told him so to his face last April. He got very self-defensive. I was just fed up by his pushing-n-pulling and contradicting “confessions” and lies!
Now, all the dramas were over. After coming to LwL, I’ve learned to forgive LO, and MORE myself for those crazy limerence melodramas. I want to see if I can still remain a friend with LO, despite all the dark sides of this LE — it would be a test to my semi-Buddhistic training. If not possible, it’s okay, too.
Thank you for listening, Sister! 🫂
Marcia,
I Checked the medicine cabinet, very simply. No female stuff. But I can’t tell whether he’s a gay. 🧐
Also, his master bathroom is upstairs, so if anything intimate, they would be up there. He used that one when I arrived.
My gosh, his smiling is a killer! But I was totally calm the entire time and focused on my tutoring. He was eager to learn.
I asked his cell#, because of possible lateness with traffic. He’s totally fine and texted me back with his last name. We agreed upon necessary changes on teaching hour, due to possible unexpected.
I’ll talk a bit more about this glimmer thingy in “Glimmer” blog.
Snow,
“Also, his master bathroom is upstairs, so if anything intimate, they would be up there. He used that one when I arrived.”
We’ll have to figure out a way to get you into the upstairs bathroom to check that medicene cabinent. I’ll have to think about that.
But is there a coat closet you can check? Just to be sure there aren’t any women’s raincoats or winter coats.
Darling Marcia, 😂😂
There is coat hanger at the door on the right; the bathroom on the left, stairs going up in the middle. I hung my coat on one of hooks and took off my shoes on the door. I saw four pairs of his sneakers lined up there. It seems no closet downstairs (I can’t remember well), probably they are all upstairs.
We sat on the dining table on the left side of the kitchen utilities nicely blocked by an open wall, beyond is a living quarter with huge sofas, a coffee table, and tall windows. Very simple, clean. Nothing feminine.
You’re too hilarious! We are chatting on how to catch a single dude in an open forum! 😅
Snowphoenix,
“You’re too hilarious! We are chatting on how to catch a single dude in an open forum! 😅”
It’s a coffeehouse, no? I thought we could talk about anything. 🙂
Ok … you’re going to have to do something to the tank in the downstairs toilet. Don’t flood it but something like take out a washer so that when you jiggle the handle, the toilet won’t flush and you have to use the upstairs bathroom.
In the meantime … you can google him and check social media since you have his last name. 🙂
Marcia,
😂😂😂 😂😂😂 😂😂😂 😂😂😂
now, I won’t be nervous for my tomorrow’s zoom job interview!
Never thought to google him until you mentioned…. 😂
I did not give him my last name….
Snow,
“now, I won’t be nervous for my tomorrow’s zoom job interview!”
Good luck on job interview! 🙂
Marcia,
Thanks. I’ll just be myself in interview. Luckily, I’m not in a desperate position.
I woke up and still laugh hard on your naughty tricks! 😂😂😂
I can’t do it! Don’t feel going upstairs to even “investigate” yet. My glimmer is reined by LwL mindset.
“ I wasn’t trying to be a pain in the ass. It just doesn’t sound like he’s been that good of a friend.”
I appreciate your tough questions, I need to see a matter from different angles, even it’s a second hand. By trying to answer those questions, I could clarify some of my confused views and emotions. So don’t ever hesitate to ask! 🤝
Googled Romeo, and saw his professional bio with a picture that does not capture his femininity and sweetness. He is a managing partner of a small investment company in legalized cannabis — really NOT my cup of tea. But he looks upbeat. Innocent, very quick minded. We are after his person, not his title or content of his job, right? 😝
I’m in the train to work… 💪
Marcia,
LO just caught me laughing on my own in the lounge, so II had to tell him that my ghost twin sister has been hilariously cheering me up since last night….and I am no longer feeling nervous for my coming interview… He’s said “good, that’s good!”.
I’ll be in his class in the afternoon.
Snow,
“Thanks. I’ll just be myself in interview. Luckily, I’m not in a desperate position.”
Good luck! 🙂
“I woke up and still laugh hard on your naughty tricks! 😂😂😂 Don’t feel going upstairs to even “investigate” yet. My glimmer is reined by LwL mindset.”
Well, that’s good. I was being silly, of course. It was funny to think about you busting up the toilet. 🙂
“I appreciate your tough questions, I need to see a matter from different angles, even it’s a second hand. ”
One time, commenter Allie wrote that my LO sounded like a tease. I had never thought of him like that. Flirtatious, yes, but a tease sounded so intentional. And she was right.
Or someone can write something that you’ve known to be true for a while but, for some reason, reading it from someone else can make it click.
“Googled Romeo, and saw his professional bio with a picture that does not capture his femininity and sweetness. He is a managing partner of a small investment company in legalized cannabis — really NOT my cup of tea.”
It’s MY cup of tea. Send him on my way. 🙂
” But he looks upbeat. Innocent, very quick minded. We are after his person, not his title or content of his job, right? 😝”
Ummm…. you were to investigate him. Any evidence of a girlfriend or a boyfriend? We are far less interested in his job than his social life. 🙂
Snow,
“It’s a very delicate matter, heart involved. Everyone is afraid of rejection, be it ego or vulnerability.”
I don’t know if their “heart ” was involved. I don’t know how deeply their feelings ran. It could have been just an attempt to have a sexual opportunity. It’s kind of jarring when you think you’re friends, and weeks or months into it, they start making sexual comments at you.
” My COO suitors almost never expressed their emotions, they showed their emotions through “laborious” actions, their time and attention for you, and some gifts. Expressing emotion is not a part of COO, as I discussed this in length with Sammy.”
I wasn’t talking about expressing emotions. But if they were interested (not all were married), they could have, for example, asked me on a date. And made it clear it was a date and not just hanging out as friends. Then their intentions would have been clear. That being said, there were ways the married ones could have said or done something obvious. One did, but it was weeks after we’d become friends.
“In COO, only talking IS “superficial”, but actions speak LOUDER.”
You mentioned gifts and doing things for you. Gifts and acts of service are fine, but they aren’t the ways I connect with people. I have to get to know them and have them know me. If someone remembers something that is important to me that I talked about in the past and asks me about it/refers to it later, that means the world.
“it’s a TABOO topic between opposite sex in many countries in the EAST.”
I see what you are saying. The romantic stuff was by no means all we talked about. It was just part of a bigger conversation. And certainly some of the stuff we talked about was superficial.
“In COO, there are rooms for married couples to have their own friends, close is okay, as long as no PA.”
I think married couples should have their own friends. But in the West, you’re getting into possibly tricky territory if the friends could potentially develop sexual interest in each other.
“Married guys I am friends with are faithful to their wives, as far as I know. They’d drive 2-3 hours in early dawn to airport to pick me up, if I suddenly drop in their town (it happened once when my plane was seriously delayed.) ”
That would make me uncomfortable if I was the SO. That sounds like something you’d do for a girlfriend. I guess the exception might be if you were really long-term friends and had known each other forever. And I, as the SO, had met you and we were all friends to a certain degree.
“He then daringly asked whether he could stay with me, NO!”
Ha! I had a male friend try to pull that once (I also said no, as I had a one-bedroom apartment!), although he and I were pretty close and he was nowhere near as pushy as your friend. Who was waaaaayyyyy to pushy.
” I was very agitated by then and felt I’d get a physical attack if I allowed him to hug me!”
He was being too aggressive. Way too aggressive, particularly in that you’d made it clear you weren’t interested.
“Of course, he did reply whenever he tried to hoover me back when I was backing up (6 rounds).”
Yeah, and that was intentional.
Is it possible his communications were attempts to draw you into a PA? And then you’d make it clear that wasn’t going to happen, and then he’d pull away a bit, only to return again?
“I know your practical views, but I was not after a practical friendship with LO, more like spiritual or artistic one, outside of most cultural scripts.”
I thought you were writing him pretty personal things about your childhood and your health ?
“You don’t have to follow the script, but I haven’t found anyone else who doesn’t, at least in the West.”
I meant that everyone else will follow the cultural script in the West about friendship and its lesser importance. You dont’ have to follow the script, but if everyone else does, you’ll be on your own island. I haven’t met anyone who doesn’t follow it.
“I have four guy friends like that, but we hardly talk to each other, although we could whenever we feel like through social media, or when we get together in person.”
I mean, I personally can’t go weeks and weeks (or months and months) and not talk with someone and feel we’re still close. I know there are people who see it differently and feel they can pick up where they left off with someone, no matter how much time has passed.
“My curiosity scope is quite large, that’s an attraction of unknowns.”
There’s a great line in the movie version of the Tennessee Williams’ play “Sweet Bird of Youth.” The aging movie star wakes up with the male gigolo and can’t remember who he is or what happened between them. He tells her that he played hard to get. And she says, “You miscalculated. My interest increases with satisfaction.” 🙂
“Every single matter in life has at least two sides, if not 5 or 6”
That is very true. And many things can be true at once. He could have been a supportive friend while still also being a bit sketchy and pushing a PA.
“If I’m totally healed from cptsd, I think I could live like Garbo.”
I do, too! And she had many people besotted with her during her life. I think she was probably a difficult person to love but it sounds sexy. At least in theory. Stirring up strong emotions in people. 🙂
“I only think about it in theory: it’s like allowing a certain degree of polygamy (not FWB) from time to time, if one party or both naturally “fall” into it for a period of time, and then come back to the marital partner…”
I think you mean polyamory. Oh, no, that would not be an option for me. If I had an SO and he was interested in someone else and wanted to pursue her, that would be his choice. But my door would be closed after that. 🙂
“But later, after his LO appearance, he denied he ever had PA with any other women.”
It sounds like he was lying.
“Thank you for listening, Sister! ”
You’re welcome. Thank you for listening, too.
Marcia,
Without even fully understand a question from one of 3 interviewers, and guessing-answered three tough questions along several others, I passed the first round interview.. I’ll be giving a demo lesson in two weeks. But it’s not a job really want due to its classroom management issue. (I am weakest in that).
Thanks for cheering up.
Snow,
” But it’s not a job really want due to its classroom management issue. (I am weakest in that).”
Well, that still sounds good. Getting to the next round. This will get you practice to interview … for the job you really want. 🙂
Marcia,
Yes, that’s why I went on for the interviews, to practice and refresh the latest interviewing process. Haven’t been in a job market for a long time.
Afterwards, I went to consult with LO about those tough questions, which I’m sure will appear in the future. He coached me on answering them and confirmed my random answers I gave to the school earlier. It’s all learning.
Another colleague- friend will coach me on classroom management and act as my Demi-student. She specializes in HS eduction.
Snow,
“Another colleague- friend will coach me on classroom management and act as my Demi-student. She specializes in HS eduction.”
I think Romeo would be a good test student. 🙂
Marcia sister,
My views here might sound theoretical, some is what I am practicing, but haven’t reached my goals yet; some is based on what I’ve experienced and observed. They are by no means meant to be generalizing. I’m just reflecting on some stuff you’ve mentioned… some thoughts or phenomenon might only apply to me alone. 😊
“I don’t know if their “heart ” was involved. I don’t know how deeply their feelings ran. “
There is no NEED to know. We don’t know and cannot know anyone’s true “heart” or “how deeply their feelings run” (even if they’re inside you), except at some moments or a short period of time. They might not know clearly even themselves (happened to me a lot). Keenly observing myself, I saw/see a lot of emotions and thoughts, coherent or/and tangled, coexisting and changing a lot of times (average 70k-80k thoughts for an average person per day) , which made me accept a Stoic and Buddhistic point of view — what others think and feel is always beyond our “reach/control”, and nothing is permanent, particularly one’s intangible emotions and thoughts.
“It could have been just an attempt to have a sexual opportunity. It’s kind of jarring when you think you’re friends, and weeks or months into it, they start making sexual comments at you.“
I thought you said you don’t want to be overlooked. If someone has or has developed sexual feelings for you, is that “offensive”? Can’t friends develop it after interacting with us for a while? Who could predict even our own feelings while interacting with others? In COO, courtship happens mostly after one party, mostly men, befriends/interacts with another (women) for at least a short period of time. Otherwise, their feelings would be considered superficial, or even offensive — only aimed at the “animal” level.
”I wasn’t talking about expressing emotions. But if they were interested (not all were married), they could have, for example, asked me on a date. And made it clear it was a date and not just hanging out as friends. Then their intentions would have been clear. “
This is where a difference lies between COO and here, perhaps me and many others. Because romantic emotions are delicate or vulnerable (in many men and women), they are worried or afraid of a rejection, particularly after a friendship is already formed. Rejection by a “stranger” is much easier to take than by a friend, the latter could lead losing one’s valued friendship (in COO).
To me personally, “asking a date” from a friend or an acquaintance leaves little room for a natural or an adventurous flow of interactions. I understand better now why the glimmer never struck me when I met men from dating apps: I knew in advance it’s a date, a romantic intention is consciously expected — a shield put up there against glimmer’s landing. Similarly a glimmer never struck me while dealing with my friends, even if I wanted to be emotionally closer to them. Of course, I could (already happened) develop deep affection for friends, but it is romantic. I care for them as brothers and sisters.
“That being said, there were ways the married ones could have said or done something obvious. One did, but it was weeks after we’d become friends.”
I still have little clue in what ways married ones could say or do to show their wanton feelings for others, besides their SOs. That probably has caused major confusions between LO and me, I never dealt with one before this LE. He cared so much about his moral mask and appeared so proper and “innocent,”so everything was blurrily hinted. Also my limerence “goal” — a makeup parenting, was probably taken/viewed by him as PA intended. He asked me once in person during that 8 months of chasing a “camaraderie” after me, “Is this an affair?” By then, an affair only meant a PA to me (no idea what EA means), so I answered, “I don’t think so.”
“I have to get to know them and have them know me. If someone remembers something that is important to me that I talked about in the past and asks me about it/refers to it later, that means the world.”
I’m with you here! However, only “remembering and referring it later “is not sufficient to me, good poker players —skillful liars/Greater Narcs, could remember them, too (LO #5 is an expert on this, but he cheated on me and later his ex wife that caused his divorce overnight). Their corresponding actions, based on our words and their following deduction, would really mean the world. Words soon or later evaporate into thin air, but concrete, genuine actions/services, laborious gifts, speak much louder and their impact remain. This is my experienced truth in all my long-term friendship (one close gf from our 4th grade is visit next week)
“I see what you are saying. The romantic stuff was by no means all we talked about. It was just part of a bigger conversation. “
The romantic stuff in COO could be talked about, joked around or discussed among same sex, but not opposite ones (dominantly heterosexual)
“I think married couples should have their own friends. But in the West, you’re getting into possibly tricky territory if the friends could potentially develop sexual interest in each other.”
It could in the East as well, but seems less than in the West. Over there, a true friendship is valued more and lasts longer w/o marriage. If SO is fussing about it, s/he is considered narrow-minded and small hearted — not cool at all!
“That would make me uncomfortable if I was the SO. That sounds like something you’d do for a girlfriend. “
Perhaps it’s the cultural script here makes you feel this way? If you grow up and live in South Africa, you’d feel totally different about other women in your SO’s life. Someone stuck or stranded in an airport in a middle of night does not happen everyday or even every year. In COO, any good gf or bf would help me out. SO could ever urge their SO to do so, it’s considered true kindness.
“I guess the exception might be if you were really long-term friends and had known each other forever. And I, as the SO, had met you and we were all friends to a certain degree.”
Do you see how many “rules” in your one sentence, for just an emergency help to a friend? In my case, I would not have phoned a so-so acquaintance in an emergeny, since I dislike to burden others. Almost all my guy friends’ SO got to know them later than me, so they know our friendship tie is very strong but not romantic. If once romantic on their side, it was not on my side (I turned down some proposals). I’ve met all their SOs and went out with the couples alone or in groups; If those guys come out alone to have coffee, lunch, dinner with me, usually with other mutual friends, there were never any fuss. They do not want to be thought “jealous” (heavily frowned, negative emotion) or “displease” their husbands/bfs — still Macho, although subtle among educated.
“He was being too aggressive. Way too aggressive, particularly in that you’d made it clear you weren’t interested.”
I’ve just shown you an example of behaviors from a Macho man (educated in an elite college). If not for the sake of classmate-ship, I’d punch his face near the metro for such disrespectful attempts. Later, I vented out my anger to our mutual classmates in Canada: his limerence and its demonstration is disgusting and infuriating (back then). Now after LwL, I understand it better and feel a bit sorry for the guy.
“Is it possible his communications were attempts to draw you into a PA? And then you’d make it clear that wasn’t going to happen, and then he’d pull away a bit, only to return again?”
It’s very possible. After I explained in length I would be offended by a “causal” interaction (due to my COO upbringing), he pulled away a little bit (I did not react at all to “I don’t’ think I’ll much time for you from now on”, he’s entitled to). Then he came back when I asked him to destroy all our missives, and expressed his wish “to grow old together” (his voice was shaking). I doubted his intention, but could not turn him down in person. Then LO appeared, and I began NC to his face for over two months, he then wrote a “begging” letter wishing me to at least to greet him in public, my soft heart gave in (NC hurt my Buddhistic spot very badly).
Two months later in that hotel room he said he felt “lost” when I pulled off that NC… He hinted very subtly that I take the lead to get physical closer (I’m slow-minded in this kind of matter and only realized it a few days ago. ), but for the reasons I told you previously, I could not do it. So he offered a big hug at the door (I had to cut it short, or I’d lose it) before he left — the only physical contact we ever had (summer 2022, during which his LO was still around). That’s why he fit the definition of a Sensor, he’d maintain all his orbiters around while deceitfully claiming he’s kept “fidelity” to his SO. Maybe it was true that he really did not want EA with others, only casual PAs.
“I know your practical views, but I was not after a practical friendship with LO, more like spiritual or artistic one, outside of most cultural scripts.” “I thought you were writing him pretty personal things about your childhood and your health ?”
In my previous message, I should have said it was like “therapeutic or artistic one”; “spiritual” is a tricky world, since I don’t believe at all those destined twin-flame thingy — I have had big and small LEs in 2 digits. I used the word “artistic” because this one-sided monologue correspondence was like to produce, direct and act an entire show in my head, and LO was the only silent, passive audience in reality. If in his shoe, I would remain curious to see what would happen next, since there was not a precedence to refer to.
Then along those active, response-free imagination (in organized writing), my old cptsd wounds unexpectedly got healed, because LO severed as an EAR. My parent did not give me that crucial/vital, loving Ear when I needed it most. (Check the new poster from “Maricoona”, her cptsd sounds similar to mine, but more intense and her case more puzzling, since her LO was loving and available to her.)
“Health” is viewed Severely more “personal” here, but not in COO. We could talk about our health to regular friends or even acquaintances in details, usually in laymen medical terms. LO later had to ask me not to tell him about my health, which caused my confusion at first, “What’s the big deal about it?”
“I meant that everyone else will follow the cultural script in the West about friendship and its lesser importance. You dont’ have to follow the script, but if everyone else does, you’ll be on your own island. I haven’t met anyone who doesn’t follow it.”
NO such a thing that “everyone” follows, that’s against human natures particular in the West. Most of time, I’m on my own island on both shores — I’m very “odd”, too westernized there, and a bit “odd”, eccentrically eastern here. But I still follow the local culture or rituals when I visit the East, and my long-term friends don’t mind my oddity at all. I have to say that tolerance, acceptance, and relaxation degree over there is beyond imaginations of many Westerners here. People here are so much intense or rigid on who/what is right, who/what is wrong, inflexibly following countless beliefs, doctrines, rules, concepts etc, making one’s life very mentally tiring or anxious. Many Easterners, Buddhistic or not, often comment: Westerners are a way too serious and fuss so much over unnecessary stuff, it’s just silly/unwise…They don’t know how to enjoy or be content with what they already have… (so much more than majority of Easterners.)”
In my current town, literally all kinds of people coexist individualistically; all types are tolerated and accepted with eyebrows rarely raised — a biggest playground of liberals, eccentrics, immigrants, and singletons. I’ve made a lot of international friends here, but unfortunately, they all left for jobs or family.
“I mean, I personally can’t go weeks and weeks (or months and months) and not talk with someone and feel we’re still close.”
I can. I know my action-based friends are always there for me if I need them. I don’t talk with them often because I’m always busy learning something new; my mindset is very different from theirs and it’s constantly reshaping, hard to be grasped (even by myself), which is totally OK. I truly don’t expect my friends or anyone else to understand me. If I can understand and fully accept my ever changing/evolving Self, I’ll be “ecstatic” and feel deeply grounded! Chatting, discussing, debating or even “firing” with you and other “ghosts” here has tremendously helped such an individuation process, so gladly surprised! 😀🫂
“I know there are people who see it differently and feel they can pick up where they left off with someone, no matter how much time has passed.”
With friendship I can. Not with romance, though.
“My curiosity scope is quite large, that’s an attraction of unknowns.” There’s a great line in the movie version of the Tennessee Williams’ play “Sweet Bird of Youth.” The aging movie star wakes up with the male gigolo and can’t remember who he is or what happened between them. He tells her that he played hard to get. And she says, “You miscalculated. My interest increases with satisfaction.”
I’m not sure I got your example/joke here? 🤔 I was saying that in order to keep my curiosity alive, things need to remain unknown. “Familiarity kills cat” (did I quote here correctly?). I get bored easily, while any kind of script was followed by others and myself. A romantic relationship should remain a little BIT mysterious and worth of exploratory. When a mind, loving or not, is not challenged to explore, to learn, and to adapt, it will get bored and shrinks. Look at some of those settled, married couples or retired people…
“That is very true. And many things can be true at once. He could have been a supportive friend while still also being a bit sketchy and pushing a PA.”
That’s my point! He can push for whatever he wishes (we can’t control others’ thoughts, emotions, or behaviors), it’s UP to me how to react or act out my choices! Just because we disagree or disapprove some personality traits of our friends (opinions, behaviors), we should “abandon” their friendship and support altogether? Then we will be left totally alone one day! I think all we need to do is to make sure that we don’t get swept into shadowy parts of our friends while accepting whatever/whoever they are (like a lone-wolf LO #5). I think this is an act of true tolerance and acceptance. No one is perfect, absolutely NO ONE!
A lot of unrealistic expectations of what LOs should or could say or do seem to have caused many limerents’ pains. Dodge/Sensor/Narc LOs will act out, and are entitled to act out, their dodge/Sensor/Narc nature, then why should we limerents feel surprised or even enraged (talking more about myself)? I think one of Limerents’ primary tasks is to Recognize what type of LO we are dealing with in the first place. A constant reality check is quite necessary.
“I think you mean polyamory. Oh, no, that would not be an option for me. If I had an SO and he was interested in someone else and wanted to pursue her, that would be his choice. But my door would be closed after that. “
Yes, polyamory is what I meant. I’m not so worried about my SO, but my own limerent tendency. I can behave faithfully on surface, but my always heart follows its own courses and ebbs. I was idealistic like you before my marriage and thought my affection for SO would last forever. But two glimmers hit me making me in mild limerence during the marriage, which puzzled myself. I did not act on them, but my SO felt my changes and even figured out at whom my limerent eyes were aiming, but he did not fuss about it.
Snow,
“I thought you said you don’t want to be overlooked. If someone has or has developed sexual feelings for you, is that “offensive”? ”
No, I guess if they developed them, but do you think that’s really what happened? You and I have both written the glimmer happens pretty quickly after meeting someone. I’m not saying they were limerent for me, but if they found me appealing, they probably were aware of it pretty early on. So instead of being direct about that interest, they developed a friendship with me. Never made a move physically. Talked to me on the phone/texted/spent time with me as a friend. I talked about things with them and revealed things I wouldn’t have if I had known their interest was romantic.
“Can’t friends develop it after interacting with us for a while?”
Has that ever happeend to you? I guess, if someone was demi-sexual.
“In COO, courtship happens mostly after one party, mostly men, befriends/interacts with another (women) for at least a short period of time. Otherwise, their feelings would be considered superficial, or even offensive — only aimed at the “animal” level.”
I suppose there are instances where the two could develop a rapport before the man asks the woman out, but in general, if I’m interested in a guy, I’d want him to ask me out pretty quickly. Or I’d think he wasn’t serious and just flirting. That is one big thing limerence has taught me (the nost recent LO and previous LOs).
“Rejection by a “stranger” is much easier to take than by a friend, the latter could lead losing one’s valued friendship (in COO).”
Exactly. So ask the person out right away. Someone you don’t know well.
“I understand better now why the glimmer never struck me when I met men from dating apps: I knew in advance it’s a date, a romantic intention is consciously expected — a shield put up there against glimmer’s landing.”
I see what you’re saying. There’s too much pressue to make an immediate decision about someone. I just don’t know any other way to do it besides dating sites. Unless you meet people naturally or organically, but that is not easy once one gets over the age of 30, when a lot of people in the West are already partnered.
” Similarly a glimmer never struck me while dealing with my friends, even if I wanted to be emotionally closer to them.”
Exactly my point. You feel the glimer or you don’t. A guy getting to know you as a friend won’t make you glimmer. So if they are attracted themselves … go ahead and rip the band-aid off and let me know.
“I still have little clue in what ways married ones could say or do to show their wanton feelings for others, besides their SOs. ”
Exactly what your LO asked. “Is this an affair?” Or something like that. Or just disclose their feeings. It can be as simple as, “I’ve been thinking about the two of us getting together.”
“Their corresponding actions, based on our words and their following deduction, would really mean the world.”
To an extent. But gifts do nothing for me. In terms of actions, it would be: He says he’s going to call, he calls. He says you’re going to do something that weekend, and you do.
But him refering to something you talked about … if he asked you how your recent interview went, for example … that means he’s listening.
“If SO is fussing about it, s/he is considered narrow-minded and small hearted — not cool at all!”
I don’t care if I’m considered narrow-minded. 🙂
“Perhaps it’s the cultural script here makes you feel this way? ”
No! I read this site. And I’m a limerent myself.
“Do you see how many “rules” in your one sentence, for just an emergency help to a friend?”
I suppose if it was an emergency, but your scenario had a 4-hour round trip drive. And … if the friend once had romantic feelings for you … exactly my point. No, I would not be comfortable with that. How do you know they aren’t still interested? Do you read this site? 🙂
Maybe I’m too Western. Idk. I only have two guy friends left. Both expressed romantic interest at some point (many years ago), and, no, I don’t think they’re still interested and they are both with other people and things are strictly platonic. So in those instances, their SOs would have nothing to worry about. (Although the one, I think he’d be down for a sexual encounter, if I was. So still kind of sketch. He’s not holding it back; I am.) But, with my other guy friends, when they expressed interest and I said no, the friendships ended. Or faded. And, again, I’m defining a friend as someone you hang out with in person/call/text. Not a former work colleague who emails to say hi from time to time.
I used to think like you. But I have come to understand that if a man is befriending you one-one-one, he’s usually interested romantically. So in the West, an SO wanting to hang out with another woman would be a red flag.
“his limerence and its demonstration is disgusting and infuriating (back then).”
How do you know he was limerent? I’ve read that in other posts here, and I don’t know how people can tell the other person is limerent. For example, I knew my LO was interested. From his actions and how he acted around me, I think I’d be safe to say he had a crush. But limerence? Idk. I don’t know how deeply his feelings ran. Short of me sharing a defintion of limerence with him and confirming it verbally, how would I?
” I used the word “artistic” because this one-sided monologue correspondence ”
I guess I was saying that if I had received multiple long emails or texts from a guy … I’d think he was probably interested in me. That’s what I’m thinking your LO thought.
“NO such a thing that “everyone” follows, that’s against human natures particular in the West.”
Well, not everyone does but most do. I can value a friendship all I want, but if it’s not equally valued by the other person, there’s not much I can do about it. And trying to beat my head against the wall and change the cultural narrative of how people prioritize their relationships is a waste of time.
“I can. I know my action-based friends are always there for me if I need them.”
And those are good friendships to have. I need to have some level of communication. A phone call once a month or something. If all we do is text a couple of times a year … that’s an aquaintance.
“I’m not sure I got your example/joke here? 🤔 I was saying that in order to keep my curiosity alive, things need to remain unknown. “Familiarity kills cat””
I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying things not being consummated means your curiosity remains alive. With me, if too much interacting goes on for too long and nothing happens … my curiosity dies.
“Just because we disagree or disapprove some personality traits of our friends (opinions, behaviors), we should “abandon” their friendship and support altogether?”
It depends on the other personality traits and how bad they are. With that one semi-LO who floated in and out … our last communication was me texting him. I needed a friend, and his response was to flirt with me. And it completley turned me off. OMG! Was he still throwing out sexual come-ons that he was NEVER going to act on after all these years?!! Yes, he was! I just saw him as ridiculous. He was incapable of friendship. I was an orbiter, so naturally he would just flirt with me. That interaction ended my limerence, right then and there. I never contacted him again.
“Dodge/Sensor/Narc LOs will act out, and are entitled to act out, their dodge/Sensor/Narc nature, then why should we limerents feel surprised or even enraged (talking more about myself)?”
Yes, very true. (See above about my Narc LO. :))
” I was idealistic like you before my marriage and thought my affection for SO would last forever.”
I’m not idealistic. I’m a limerent. I know what can happen. I don’t necessarily believe a long-term relationship will be forever.
I don’t think it’s just about East vs. West with attitudes about friendships. My attitude has always been more like yours, Snow–and I’ve seen a similar attitude with other people I know. I don’t know if it’s geek culture or just the way people are in this part of the country. The church I’m in now, seems to have a similar attitude. Nobody raises an eyebrow that I’m good friends with a good-looking man who’s 15 years younger than I am (not current LO, though he was in the past). It’s an ethnic church; they also flirt like mad, no matter who they’re paired with. This apparently comes from the Old Country.
In the 90s it felt like there was more of a drive to be open to all kinds of friendships and have faith and trust in our SO’s, then in the 2000s I started encountering people who I felt like stepped out of the 50s. People have speculated that it’s from the purity culture in a lot of the churches, which became very influential around the turn of the century. Seems there was a lot of preaching against opposite-sex friendships. But many people have resisted this concept.
You also started hearing a lot about “Emotional Affairs,” which wasn’t even a thing before then. If you weren’t having sex, you weren’t having an affair, lol! You can check online and easily find that a lot of people in the West still don’t accept the concept. I have issues with it, myself, because behaviors I associate with close friendships get lumped into that category. I was intrigued several months ago re-watching “Plymouth Adventure,” a movie from the 50s. The captain tries to lure Mrs. Bradford into an affair; he captures her heart and kisses her, but they never have sex, and then she falls off the ship and drowns. Later on he tells Mr. Bradford, “She never betrayed you.” That even though nowadays they’d call it an EA, especially with those kisses.
I’m still of the thinking that if your friend is stuck in an airport at 2am, who cares if you’re of the opposite sex? They need help! Get over it! lol
Serial Limerent
Before finding this community, in reading up on affairs, divorce, separation, etc trying to figure out wtf was going on with me, I read a lot of female bloggers, mostly religious but not all, preaching to other women that you can’t trust your husband to have female friends. Going so far as to say that your husband having a female friend in of itself, even without any inappropriate behavior, is a breach of trust. As if every married man’s intention with any other woman is carnal.
It blew my mind. It’s like if you can’t even trust your husband around other woman at all, than why did you marry him? If he hasn’t given you any reason to think he is inappropriate with other women why can’t you trust him? I mean look what limerence did to my marriage and my wife still trusts me with other women just not exLO. I understand that. That is reasonable.
I think like with most things in a marriage a middle ground should be found. What you described in the movie would be out of line for me. And then still come home and face my wife. I would have no problem trusting her around other men. She has given me no reason to think otherwise.
One of my co-workers is married and he has often met at ate lunch alone with our former female supervisor. Both their spouses know where they are and have no issue them doing that. I would never met up with a female co-worker, exLO or not, alone for a meal. That is so close to crossing the line for me. But I personally would have no issue my wife eating lunch alone with a male friend or co-worker. It’s just a matter of what the two people in the marriage are okay with not what society thinks.
Just as an aside; in reading blogs and actual testimonies it is amazingly different how women write about affairs and how men do. I find a lot of women write about affairs very accusingly as if women don’t cheat. And a lot of men write apologetically; whether it be an account of their own affair or that of someone else’s or just about affairs in general. I think there is a huge disparity in how society sees one gender cheating and the other.
Yeah, who is the guy cheating with, then? lol
If you have to be that vigilant about your husband’s friendships, why marry him? Sounds exhausting! My husband has always had female friends. And what about people who are bisexual? One blogger wrote, “They’re telling me I can’t have any friends!” To me it seems to reduce us not to who we are, our personalities and talents, but to our sex.
Serial Limerent<
Thank you for your very informative and understanding message. I feel relived to be a “geek”! 🦙
Where do you live? I’d like to join your ethnic church if feasible. 😜
“This apparently comes from the Old Country.”
What is the “Old Country”? Exactly period? Its culture?
“Seems there was a lot of preaching against opposite-sex friendships. But many people have resisted this concept.”
That’s ridiculous! I would not be able to survive in that type of environment.
“You also started hearing a lot about “Emotional Affairs,” which wasn’t even a thing before then. If you weren’t having sex, you weren’t having an affair, lol! “
Nearly 10 years ago, I’ve heard about this EA thingy from a close European girlfriend who evidently suffered a great deal. (her hubby “courted” me first in vain and I incidentally brought two to my party. They hit off instantly and got married in two months). I tried to comfort her as much as I could but was unable to understand why it drove her that much “mad” — I could only imagine its impact.
“a lot of people in the West still don’t accept the concept. I have issues with it, myself, because behaviors I associate
with close friendships get lumped into that category. “
In theory, I understood it. But what’s considered “close friendships” might be interpreted differently from culture to culture, people to people. To me personally, as long as I don’t harbor a romantic feeling for them or ever holding their hands, then it’s a friendship, be it going out, chatting or dialoguing in depth online or in person periodically (Of course, not everyday or every week!). We could help each other practically, emotionally, mentally, psychologically whenever it’s needed.
“That even though nowadays they’d call it an EA, especially with those kisses.”
Wow, not in my COO, that would be thought to have crossed the line. Personally, I don’t like to be touched physically even by gfs — Mom’s fault (I don’t remember any loving touches or hugging from her, except those sudden face slapping; in another thousand years, I can’t become a lesbian! ). I’ve tried very hard to feel comfortable to be hugged by truly warm-hearted women in the West (maximum 5 seconds).
“I’m still of the thinking that if your friend is stuck in an airport at 2am, who cares if you’re of the opposite sex? They need help! Get over it! lol”
I’m with you here totally! I’d do anything to help that stranded friend (even if he’s an xLO — not Narc!). My SO (non-limerent) would have helped me, since I could not drive.
I was stranded in the airport for over 10 hours, my friend (proposed me once before my marriage) drove 2 hours at 2am to just accompany me until I boarded the next flight. A couple of years later, his wife, he and me all drove together and spent a night at a B&B to visit Canada, she took a very good care of him and was motherly caring for me. I could not detect an ounce of jealousy or worry in her.
Serial Limerent,
“They’re telling me I can’t have any friends!” To me it seems to reduce us not to who we are, our personalities and talents, but to our sex.”
Wow, so well said! that’s pint I haven’t “seen” clearly without your loudly stating it…
“I find a lot of women write about affairs very accusingly as if women don’t cheat. And a lot of men write apologetically; whether it be an account of their own affair or that of someone else’s or just about affairs in general. I think there is a huge disparity in how society sees one gender cheating and the other. “
I am here with you. I think it’s unfair for woman to accusingly complain, and Men apologetically admit. I think the disparity is caused by perhaps an assumption and deduction from historical data; men have cheated far more in quantity and in frequencies, due to the biological differences between two sexes or whatever causes.
But in today’s West, (perhaps, after the second wave of feminine movements?) some liberated, wanton women have just behaved like their counterpart, if they are able — a female version of Don Juan. Some want to do but could not due to existing morality codes.
@Snow:
“Where do you live? I’d like to join your ethnic church if feasible. 😜”
LOL, I’ll just say Upper Midwest. 😉
““This apparently comes from the Old Country.”
“What is the “Old Country”? Exactly period? Its culture?”
Greece, where people are very extroverted, flirty, and touchy-feely. 🙂
Serial Limerent,
Thanks. Now, I understand a new word, “the Old Country”!
But it would be almost impossible for me to deal with “people are very extroverted, flirty, and touchy-feely”, due to my Eastern upbringing in “art” of subtlety, my cptsd, and my wood-fish reasoning tendency that always reduced/blocked whatever feelings I was feeling at the moment… 😄. I really envied the passion-driven culture that I saw in movies!
Marcia,
“I guess if they developed them, but do you think that’s really what happened? “
Very possible, if they are non-limerents. Most of my COO suitors were my friends first. So they were very indirect about their feeling, worrying to be hurt. They tried to detect whether I had reciprocated. If they could not make me developing reciprocation for them, they’d back up without ever expressing the feelings they had for me. I know this for truth because these long gone feelings were told to me much later mostly indirectly through a third party.
The guy-friend (drove to the airport) formerly proposed and was turned down. I had a non-glimmered “crush” for him after a dream, and it lasted only one month, but he caught my crushed eyes and firmly believed that I had feelings for him. I felt so bad when I had to turn him down because I raffectionally liked his personality. Not sure if he ever in limerence me, but he asked our mutual friend (another private, silent admirer) to make an inquiry years later just to confirm I did have feelings for him back then. So I told the truth to this mutual friend (can’t turn down his request), I always tried to be truthful.
There were non-friend suitors who seemed to fall in a crush with me, then after my firm, but indirect “rejection”, they’d disappear completely from my life, and I didn’t care at all. In COO, rarely anyone would use word “date” directly, it’s too tacky and pressure-driving, leaving room for one’s feelings to be hurt.
“You and I have both written the glimmer happens pretty quickly after meeting someone.”
But many people, men or women, are not our type.
“but if they found me appealing, they probably were aware of it pretty early on.”
What if they were NOT aware early on? What if they developed affection after getting to know your lovable personalities, instead of just appearance? Do we want our personality to be sexy/attractive/loveable as well?
“So instead of being direct about that interest, they developed a friendship with me. Never made a move physically. “
We are very different here! Ideally, I don’t want their fast physical advance, because that indicates only my physical attraction to them, not ME as a whole person. And I’d think they’re shallow. This culture (not all the West) emphasizes so much on superficial sexy, attractive appeals….
I tried those 1/2/3 night stands for the sake of an experiment right after divorce, and found I just could not stomach it, let alone to enjoy — there was no affection touched, too mechanical, regardless if they were gorgeous with a fit body!
“Talked to me on the phone/texted/spent time with me as a friend. I talked about things with them and revealed things I wouldn’t have if I had known their interest was romantic.”
This sounds bizarre to me — a possible romance would hide your true mind? In my COO, a true mind could possibly cultivate romance (evidently not in me). I still wanted to know a LO’s inside out as fast as possible, besides desiring to be with them.
“Has that ever happeend to you? I guess, if someone was demi-sexual.”
Not to me or you, but happened to a lot of my friends/acquaintances, from elementary school to college.
“I suppose there are instances where the two could develop a rapport before the man asks the woman out, but in general, if I’m interested in a guy, I’d want him to ask me out pretty quickly. “
It sounds that you’re goal driven. But what if he wants to take a bit longer time? It’s a dual dance, you have to consider other side’s pace, right?
“Or I’d think he wasn’t serious and just flirting. That is one big thing limerence has taught me (the nost recent LO and previous LOs).”
Understandable. But if LO is coupled already, he would certainly take his time even if he wanted a EA or PA. Most of them do care about their social mask. If a LO is available and seems compatible, then you could ask him out, could you? I’m too shy to strike the ball first.
“Exactly. So ask the person out right away. Someone you don’t know well.”
Hmmm… despite some experiences, I’m still not used to this direct “dating” culture. I am used to the tradition in getting to know people organically. That’s only when the Glimmer has a chance to strike — there was no exception in my cases!
“II see what you’re saying. There’s too much pressue to make an immediate decision about someone. I just don’t know any other way to do it besides dating sites.”
Dating is almost like “shopping” for a product! I’ve been off dating app after LO #5. Narc LO #6 was from a cafe. Dating sites are a hunting ground for Narcs for their victims (that ultra Narc informed), for people as an object —both male and female is psychologically treated as a commodity from the moment one signs up.
“Unless you meet people naturally or organically, but that is not easy once one gets over the age of 30, when a lot of people in the West are already partnered.”
It’s true that dating is easier than in the past, but more successful in love? Making more people happier or less anxious/stressed? Who says everyone has to be partnered? Is it a task or necessity? What if that lucky star never shines over one’s head? Should that person then miserably continue the rest of her or his life? I understand the pressure of time and one’s biological needs and wants, but I think this kind of comparative, competitive and meritocratic society is unhealthy, making most much more anxious than before, myself is included.
If one cannot live alone happily, then one cannot be paired happily — s/he does not have much to contribute to an organically growing relationship and would unconsciously cling to/suck other side’s light for a happiness or fulfillment, instead of produce it on his/her own. I remember right before I had to take anti-depressants, small kids and dogs avoided eye contact with me, as if I appeared like a walking demon. Much later when I felt relaxed and expected little at ease, I got smiles from senior men and women in parks, strange dogs’ jump for a peting, and young kids’ curious eyes. Then I knew I was doing Ok. (Just signed up to coach that 3 yrs old boy)
”Exactly my point. You feel the glimer or you don’t. A guy getting to know you as a friend won’t make you glimmer. “
Then, I’ll just keep him as a friend, if I like him enough. Otherwise, I’ll phase him out, since I have little spare time.
“So if they are attracted themselves … go ahead and rip the band-aid off and let me know.”
It’s sound like demanding others to behave in our preferred/wishful ways. If no barriers, I think they will eventually, no one has a load of free time nowadays.
“But gifts do nothing for me. In terms of actions, it would be: He says he’s going to call, he calls. He says you’re going to do something that weekend, and you do.”
I never took gifts, even small ones, for granted; especially appreciated “right” ones that shown other side’s careful observation of my tastes and efforts he made to get/make them. Yes, their words need to match their actions.
“But him refering to something you talked about … if he asked you how your recent interview went, for example … that means he’s listening.”
Of course. Yesterday, I told LO about my zoom interview before his class, he causally wished me a good luck. After its ending while still in the classroom, I told him I passed it and needed to prepare a demo lesson, he immediately asked me about my idea. I thought it’s just his politeness, so I gave an attentive answer. But he then asked in details how I would deliver it. Then he suggested more consideration for a larger classroom, which surprised me. I did not ask him for help, but he offered as if he really cared❓
“If SO is fussing about it, s/he is considered narrow-minded and small hearted — not cool at all!” “I don’t care if I’m considered narrow-minded. “
Then you’d have a hard time finding a SO over there, they care a lot about personality. 😀 or your marriage with the said SO would be unpleasantly constricted. You’d like that instead?
““Perhaps it’s the cultural script here makes you feel this way? ” No! I read this site. And I’m a limerent myself.”
So you’re saying we limerent are more jealous or more possessive if we have a SO? 🧐 (not me with my SO. I only got angry with his flings, not no jealousy.)
“I suppose if it was an emergency, but your scenario had a 4-hour round trip drive. And … if the friend once had romantic feelings for you … exactly my point. No, I would not be comfortable with that. How do you know they aren’t still interested? Do you read this site? “
It was not a scenario, it happened! (Seen my post to Serial Limerent yesterday).
My question here is: if your SO still deeply harbored some old-flames, but he does not act them out or just wants to help his xLO in an emergency, should that affect/deminish your relationship? Could you possibly control his “feelings”? This type of insecurity or reaction would bring us pains, which I suffered myself and know it.
This site? You mean this blog or the entire site? Which particular points?
“Maybe I’m too Western. Idk. I only have two guy friends left. Both expressed romantic interest at some point (many years ago), and, no, I don’t think they’re still interested and they are both with other people and things are strictly platonic. “
Then cherish your platonic friendships, expect or want nothing more.
“But, with my other guy friends, when they expressed interest and I said no, the friendships ended. Or faded. “
I had acquaintances like that, never friends. Real friends will reappear in my life sooner or later once they recover from their perceived rejection — I rarely give a direct one, unless they asked specifically “going out”.
“So in the West, an SO wanting to hang out with another woman would be a red flag.”
Now I agree it’s psychologically true.
LO’s SO has been “consoling” one of her old flame for a couple of years (having regular dinners, since her xLO has been depressed or going through some mental issues). LO said he disliked it very much, but could not do anything about it (she being a Hen of the house). He said he trusted her not have physically betrayed him. He said he could do the same, but did not want to…. He told me this in that hotel room after his LO already appeared (could be a reason)…. To me, he was trying hard to sound moral because he thought I was fearfully moral — strictly kept our boundary and my oath. I did not believe his words by then.
“How do you know he was limerent? I’ve read that in other posts here, and I don’t know how people can tell the other person is limerent.”
I should have used parentheses on “limerence” in my previous post. I don’t know whether he was in limerence with me, but he behaved like a drooling puppy.
“Well, not everyone does but most do. I can value a friendship all I want, but if it’s not equally valued by the other person, there’s not much I can do about it. “
No, we can’t. We could still actively ACT based on our beliefs and interests without worrying about how others would act or react, which is ALWAYS beyond our control . But sometimes, our inspiring actions could possibly be encouraging or contagious, promoting your wished action/reactions in others.
“And trying to beat my head against the wall and change the cultural narrative of how people prioritize their relationships is a waste of time.”
No need at all! Not changing anything outside ourselves, just improve our inner Self and act out our interested and preferences. If one always check how the external world responses or reacts, one would be sucked into endless sufferings! If one shines with one’s own light like a mini-sized Sun or Moon, others would be drawn to IT. That’s your Butler type!
“With me, if too much interacting goes on for too long and nothing happens … my curiosity dies.”
It sounds like you’re more goal/destination oriented, like most Westerners. I’m more focused on a journey itself, like some outdated Easterners. Werever a journey leads to is up to some of my efforts, but also fate. I think that’s my sense of life adventure, which always intriguing. I don’t want to know a result in advance.
“He was incapable of friendship. I was an orbiter, so naturally he would just flirt with me. That interaction ended my limerence, right then and there. I never contacted him again.”
Good for you! I’d cut it off as soon as possible, too, if I am certain they’re not friends materials, like my Narc LO #6, the guy whose face my drunken fist punched! I never felt remorse for that punch, he deserved it!
” I was idealistic like you before my marriage and thought my affection for SO would last forever” “I’m not idealistic. I’m a limerent. I know what can happen. I don’t necessarily believe a long-term relationship will be forever.”
As a limerent, I can befriend with many men/women at the same time, but not romance. However limerence passion fades out fast once it’s emotionally reciprocated, that’s my experiences.
Now, with nugget of LwL, I wish my passion would not fade so fast. It’s best not to slip in limerence at the first place, but navigate the crush, after the glimmer, into a workable, love relationship. I so wanted to feel grounded/settled inside, rarely liked or chased novelties, despite I got bored easily.
I don’t usually Glimmer until I’ve had a chance to get to know someone. I might find them attractive, but actual crushes and limerence are for people I know at least a little bit. Not strangers. Current LO, I’ve known for 17 years now, and we’ve always flirted with each other, but the Glimmer didn’t happen until he started paying more attention to me a couple of years ago and then hugged me last year. That’s when the misery started. A previous LO, my boss, I don’t remember how long it took; I was always annoyed with him until one day the Glimmer struck.
Snow,
“They tried to detect whether I had reciprocated. If they could not make me developing reciprocation for them”
IMO, if you have to “try to detect” the feelings someone has for you, that’s a bad sign. Someone who’s into you will let you know.
“There were non-friend suitors who seemed to fall in a crush with me, then after my firm, but indirect “rejection”, they’d disappear completely from my life, and I didn’t care at all. In COO, rarely anyone would use word “date” directly, it’s too tacky and pressure-driving, leaving room for one’s feelings to be hurt.”
I don’t think it’s tacky at all. If the person is interested in a romantic relationship and the other isn’t, why not make that clear? And why hang around if the other person isn’t interested? I think it’s more a case of the person knowing what they want.
“But many people, men or women, are not our type.”
I’d say more men are, probably. As a general rule, attraction isn’t something that grows for them.
“What if they were NOT aware early on? What if they developed affection after getting to know your lovable personalities, instead of just appearance? Do we want our personality to be sexy/attractive/loveable as well?”
I think we’re talking about two different things. There’a attraction, which is pretty immediate. Not for everyone, but for some, and I’d say more for men than women. For me, personally, it’s there or it’s not, and it’s there pretty quickly.
Affection or getting to know the person and who they are is something different than attraction. I generally don’t become attracted to someone just because I feel affection for them after getting to know them. So if I became friends with a man, it was because I wasn’t attracted. And if my guy friends were attracted right away (I don’t know exactly when they were; we didn’t discuss that) … but if they were, IMO, they should have let me know. Because I thought we were friends. And as every one of them, with one exception, evenutally came onto me or started making sexual comments at me or made it clear the door was open for sex … I questioned if that was their intention all along.
“Ideally, I don’t want their fast physical advance, because that indicates only my physical attraction to them, not ME as a whole person.”
Physical attraction kicks things off. It sparks the interest. They still have to get to know you as a person.
” And I’d think they’re shallow. ”
I don’t see it as shallow. It’s direct and it’s going after what they want. Rhett Butler went after what he wanted! 🙂
“I tried those 1/2/3 night stands for the sake of an experiment right after divorce, and found I just could not stomach it, let alone to enjoy — there was no affection touched, too mechanical, regardless if they were gorgeous with a fit body!”
I’m not talking about one-night stands. I’m talking about dating and getting to know the person.
“This sounds bizarre to me — a possible romance would hide your true mind?”
No, but I’m not going to discuss other men I find appealing with a man I’m trying to date. I’m not going to discuss my previous sex life with a man I’m trying to date, etc.
But I would with a friend.
“It sounds that you’re goal driven.”
I’ve just learned that the more time a guy takes to make a move or ask you out … it’s a bad sign.
“Understandable. But if LO is coupled already, he would certainly take his time even if he wanted a EA or PA.”
It depends on the situation. The one guy friend I mentioned who I think would still be down for some side action … he and I worked together for a few months. Got to be work friends. He left the job and called me. Within a couple of phone calls, he made it clear he wanted us to get together. I don’t know what would have happened if he hadn’t left the job. But he didn’t d**k around. Some may find that shady, but I appreciated that I knew what he wanted and he made that clear. To his credit, we stayed friends after I said no.
“If a LO is available and seems compatible, then you could ask him out, could you? I’m too shy to strike the ball first.”
Sure, yes, and I’ve done that.
“I am used to the tradition in getting to know people organically.”
I mean, ideally, you’d go to a party, for example, and just happen to meet someone and hit it off …But even in those instances, I’d know pretty quickly if I was interested romantically or not.
“Dating is almost like “shopping” for a product!”
I think dating apps are probably dehumanizing.
“Who says everyone has to be partnered?”
I don’t think everyone does, no, but a lot of people seem to want it.
“If one cannot live alone happily, then one cannot be paired happily — s/he does not have much to contribute to an organically growing relationship and would unconsciously cling to/suck other side’s light for a happiness or fulfillment, instead of produce it on his/her own.”
I couldn’t agree with you more, but a lot of people just go from person to person because they can’t be on their own.
“Much later when I felt relaxed and expected little at ease, I got smiles from senior men and women in parks, strange dogs’ jump for a peting, and young kids’ curious eyes.”
That’s because your energy changed. 🙂
“I think they will eventually, no one has a load of free time nowadays.”
It takes all of one minute to ask someone out.
“I never took gifts, even small ones, for granted; especially appreciated “right” ones that shown other side’s careful observation of my tastes and efforts he made to get/make them.”
Maybe “gifts” is your love language? It’s not mine. I can receive a gift graciously but it’s not how I best receive love and support. Caring for someone is learning how they receive love and vice versa.
“Of course. Yesterday, I told LO about my zoom interview before his class … I did not ask him for help, but he offered as if he really cared❓”
I was referring more to … you tell someone you have an interview coming up in two weeks, as I think you said you do, and they remember on the day of and shoot you a text wishing you good luck.
“Then you’d have a hard time finding a SO over there, they care a lot about personality. 😀 or your marriage with the said SO would be unpleasantly constricted. You’d like that instead?”
I’m not looking for an SO where you live. 🙂
“So you’re saying we limerent are more jealous or more possessive if we have a SO?”
No, but we are prone to falling limerent and attempting these “friendships.” 🙂
“My question here is: if your SO still deeply harbored some old-flames, but he does not act them out or just wants to help his xLO in an emergency, should that affect/deminish your relationship?”
How would it be an xLO if he has deep feelings? If he has deep feelings for someone else, he should avoid that person.
” Could you possibly control his “feelings”? ”
I can’t control his feelings but I would expect that he avoid making them stronger by spending time with/communicating with the person.
“This site? You mean this blog or the entire site? Which particular points?”
I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking about. So I was listening to this radio host who offers advice. Young, married guy calls in who’s developed a crush on his co-worker. The host is a middle-aged, married guy. His advice to the caller: He said he has some close guy freinds who he’s known for years. They are like brothers. He knows their wives. They know his wife. The wives know each other. If one of his friend’s wives came into town, she would immediatley be asked to stay with him and wife. If he went to lunch with the woman alone, no big deal. Everybody’s friends. Nothing hidden.
But he avoids going to lunch, one-on-one, with female co-workers. He avoids texting them after work about non-work stuff. Next thing you know, you’re texting a lot. Then you’re excited by and waiting for the text more than you are one from your SO.
So that’s my point in this whole discussion. It’s not that you don’t trust someone. It’s just that it’s best to avoid situations that could open the door to potential crushes/attractions developing.
“I had acquaintances like that, never friends.”
Well, if the guy asked me out right away and I said no … that’s fine. We weren’t friends. There’d be no point in him hanging around.
” Real friends will reappear in my life sooner”
The guy friends who made passes … were they “real friends” if they disappeared after I said no?
“No, we can’t. We could still actively ACT based on our beliefs and interests without worrying about how others would act or react, which is ALWAYS beyond our control ”
Actually, you should invest as much as the other person is investing.
” I don’t want to know a result in advance.”
You dont’ know the results in advance. You’re just going on a date. You have no idea where things will lead.
“However limerence passion fades out fast once it’s emotionally reciprocated, that’s my experiences.”
Yes, that’s very true. That’s the conflict. LImerence fades but those who are in it will be limerent for a while. So an SO who is limerent for someone else isn’t going to snap out of it quickly. Unless they leave and get with the LO. But then they’ve blown up the relationship.
SL,
I think your Glimmer — Eros’ arrow, is Smarter, knowing it should take some time to find more informed target to aim…
My glimmer has been always blind and utmost impatient, for mysterious reason, to have landed, within 5 second, on an unavailable stranger Romeo! And nothing I could do about it except using my wood-fish head to rein its impact…. 🙃
Snow,
Correction. From: I don’t think it’s tacky at all. If the person is interested in a romantic relationship and the other isn’t, why not make that clear?
To: I don’t think it’s tacky at all. If the person is interested in a romantic relationship, why not make that clear?
Marcia,
“IMO, if you have to “try to detect” the feelings someone has for you, that’s a bad sign. Someone who’s into you will let you know.”
I think here you tend to think for others, who are neither emotionally expressive or tend to be private about their emotions. I grew up in a culture where everyone “hides” their emotions/feelings (talked with Sammy in length about this), because demonstrate of them are embarrassing, possibly being ridiculed, or even attacked. So we habitually keep them deep inside. Anything emotional is subtly shown through gestures — gift, service, memory of one’s words… it’s such a fine art that you’d know whether one’s interested in you romantically, without explicit telling.
Most of my friends or classmates are non-limerent type as far as I could tell, so it’s highly logical that they could not defect my true emotions. They hoped they could cultivate my loving affection for them through a long-term friendship. Back then no one, including myself, knew how my bizarre glimmer/crush worked. On this side of the pond, people would still have some difficulty to “detect” my true feelings. That’s what probably troubled LO as well — I never flirted or used feeling words with him (or intimate emojis), just topic discussions, self-reflections, riddles like sentiments, my own aphorism, along with image or video clips… It’s like a museum of a collage.
“I don’t think it’s tacky at all. If the person is interested in a romantic relationship, why not make that clear?”
In the East, matters related to heart is considered subtle art, delicate, fluctuating and vulnerable. It’s something one feels in heart, not thinks in mind. It’s not straightforward like doing business. It’s never black-n-white, easy to be expressed clearly. Romanticism is still new out there.
“I think it’s more a case of the person knowing what they want.”
Does everyone always know what they want in a complicate matter like love affair or relationship?
“I’d say more men are, probably. As a general rule, attraction isn’t something that grows for them.”
Maybe it’s true in the West, where romanticism is so dominant for the last 300 years. I disagree that It is a general rule. I’ve seen, at least in COO, attractions grow after more knowledge of a person.
“I think we’re talking about two different things. There’a attraction, which is pretty immediate. Not for everyone, but for some, and I’d say more for men than women. For me, personally, it’s there or it’s not, and it’s there pretty quickly.”
I agree on this.
“Affection or getting to know the person and who they are is something different than attraction. I generally don’t become attracted to someone just because I feel affection for them after getting to know them. “
It’s true to me, as well. but we are two INFP limerents. There are other types of people who would not feel the same way as us.
“So if I became friends with a man, it was because I wasn’t attracted. “
I can be attracted by a man’s personality, maybe not his sex appeal.
“And if my guy friends were attracted right away (I don’t know exactly when they were; we didn’t discuss that) … but if they were, IMO, they should have let me know. “
You mean in the dating games/scenes? I rarely had that sort of situation, but I was always the first to “pick” and decide— either I had glimmer or not. What they felt mattered little after 10 seconds I met them. There was situation I was attracted to a guy from an app without that distinctive glimmer, LO#5, and another couple of gorgeous ones. 😎
“Because I thought we were friends. And as every one of them, with one exception, evenutally came onto me or started making sexual comments at me or made it clear the door was open for sex … I questioned if that was their intention all along.”
On this side of the pond, I haven’t experienced such a situation. I met a few men in “organic” social settings, I’d know immediately whether there was glimmer or not. I got invited out by them for tea/coffee/lunch, and they’d know cldarly if I was uninterested. My eyes and physical energy could speak. 👀
“Physical attraction kicks things off. It sparks the interest. They still have to get to know you as a person.”
Yes, Yes. But in my cases “kicking off” was rarely an issue, but their genuine interest in getting to know me as a person not as a LO…
” And I’d think they’re shallow. ” I don’t see it as shallow. It’s direct and it’s going after what they want.”
I do, because it’s merely on the physical level. I wanted them to see/know me as a person, not LO or SexO.
“Rhett Butler went after what he wanted! “
Butler loved Scarlet as a person, her personality, while everyone else disliked her, except that Melanie.
“I’m not talking about one-night stands. I’m talking about dating and getting to know the person.”
“Dating” all over the world is handled like doing a business deal or trading something, just too tacky and inhuman to me! It did not work for me at all — no glimmer ever struck. I will never use a dating app again. If a lucky star never blink over my head again, it’s okay to remind contently as singleton. Well, Romeo did appear when I least expected. It’s my luck to have him simply as a pupil at this point.
I’d love to get to know all kind of people without the word “dating” intended or involved, just like here — one gets to know someone’s inside first, so much richer and meaningful. Aren’t you feeling so? I feel truly lucky to have “met” you ghosts 🫂with whom I could freely carry on so much meaningful dialogues and discussions, that allowed me to see more clearly who I was/am and what had made me who I was/am.
“No, but I’m not going to discuss other men I find appealing with a man I’m trying to date. I’m not going to discuss my previous sex life with a man I’m trying to date, etc.”
Understand! I don’t not even discuss these subjects with my gfs! They are too personal. I may discuss them with SO if his heart is big enough to contain my previous LEs.
“I’ve just learned that the more time a guy takes to make a move or ask you out … it’s a bad sign.”
Then we ask them out. Why wait for their first move?
“The one guy friend I mentioned who I think would still be down for some side action … he and I worked together for a few months. Got to be work friends. He left the job and called me. Within a couple of phone calls, he made it clear he wanted us to get together. I don’t know what would have happened if he hadn’t left the job. But he didn’t d**k around. “
Maybe he did not want to a PA mess with your professional work. Once he left, he could try it “safely.”
“Some may find that shady, but I appreciated that I knew what he wanted and he made that clear. To his credit, we stayed friends after I said no.”
I’m happy to hear it. Ignore what others think or say!
“Who says everyone has to be partnered?” I don’t think everyone does, no, but a lot of people seem to want it.”
Of course, a majority of people want it, it could be so joyful. But it not a survival necessity. One can’t always get what one wants, particular LOVE, however one defines it; it might be harder than climbing to Mount Everest.
“I couldn’t agree with you more, but a lot of people just go from person to person because they can’t be on their own.”
I know. I’ve seen tons of examples, so sad! Most cultures do not teach how to live well on one’s own in spirit.
“That’s because your energy changed. “
Our moods and mental states can be detected by dogs and young children — their instincts. I trust their judgment more. Grownup are so “stuck” in logic/reasoning, instead of pure sensations and intuition.
“It takes all of one minute to ask someone out.”
A heart is vulnerable, more so with a fragile ego. Romantic rejection is simply bigger than ALL other types of rejection, it hits/hurts at the instinctual level.
“Maybe “gifts” is your love language? It’s not mine. I can receive a gift graciously but it’s not how I best receive love and support. Caring for someone is learning how they receive love and vice versa.”
Giving a gift, particularly handmade one, is one symbol of “love act”, but not all, I was just stressing not to undervalue it. Caring for someone entails words and matching actions simultaneously.
“I was referring more to … you tell someone you have an interview coming up in two weeks, as I think you said you do, and they remember on the day of and shoot you a text wishing you good luck.”
You’ve forgot one scenario: I met some superb liars from online; they remember what you say, ask all correct, caring questions, respond with your wished answers, just to get you to date/sleep with them (3 personal examples). But behind your back, they’re cheating on you and doing other stuff that they know you don’t like.
“Then you’d have a hard time finding a SO over there, they care a lot about personality. I’m not looking for an SO where you live.
So you’d let your insecure or jealousy possibly ruin harmony and affection between your SO and you, due to his urgent/necessary handling of his previous gf/LO”? You’d demand others’ change, instead of your own?
“No, but we are prone to falling limerent and attempting these “friendships.”
Now, with our acute awareness, don’t you think we’d be less prone to fall into a new limerence? I’m even questioning, whether I could FALL in a normal crush after my new glimmer! 🥺 Analyzing any emotion is so dangerous — reduce or diminish that emotion, be it a positive or negative one!
“How would it be an xLO if he has deep feelings? If he has deep feelings for someone else, he should avoid that person.”
You think human emotions, especially love/limerence, is like a straight rope that can just be served by a sharp sword? You’ve seen LO has existed in some limerents here over 5 decades. “Deep” is meant deeply down inside, or below the radar of subconscious. Avoiding that person or not, it could be still there.
“I can’t control his feelings but I would expect that he avoid making them stronger by spending time with/communicating with the person.”
My dear sister, such an expectation would set you up for endless sufferings. Why do you expect/want so much from SO? Do you think we could ever possess another’s person’s body, mind, and soul? Even if they want to give, nothing inside his body, mind, and soul could be realistically or metaphorically “transported” into anyone else. We only have our own body, mind, and soul at any given minute!
The insatiable desire to “possess” in the West, is mind-boggling to many Easterners, who don’t see how one can possess another human being, no matter what kind of legal or social relationship you have with him or her. It’s just impossible!
“But he avoids going to lunch, one-on-one, with female co-workers. He avoids texting them after work about non-work stuff. Next thing you know, you’re texting a lot. Then you’re excited by and waiting for the text more than you are one from your SO.”
It sounds robotic. That’s probably why I’d rather to stay single and learn to be Garbo.
“So that’s my point in this whole discussion. It’s not that you don’t trust someone. It’s just that it’s best to avoid situations that could open the door to potential crushes/attractions developing.”
Again, I can’t even trust myself in the social norm you just talked about. I’ll remain single and die alone.
“The guy friends who made passes … were they “real friends” if they disappeared after I said no?”
No, they are not. That’s why I cherish my guy friends, who did not disappear on me after I said or hinted NO. If their ego is so fragile, they are not my friend-material. And vice versa, I would not walk out on LO, if he wishes to remain a superficial, once-in-a-while texting friend. If he wants to disappear completely after May, so be it! (He still permits me to continue “bombing” his email-box if I wish. )
“Actually, you should invest as much as the other person is investing.”
That’s really calculating, unsuitable to heart/love matters. It’s hard to quantify causes and effects. Sometimes, quality speaks more value.
“You dont’ know the results in advance. You’re just going on a date. You have no idea where things will lead.”
I do not WANT to know it is a DATE, I prefer it is not a DATE — too much socially-defined rules and rituals involved. I don’t want to play any social games. It should be going out with a guy I am attracted to, I sufficiently liked, the best I glimmered at. Then, I’d really have no idea where an“adventure” will lead.
“LImerence fades but those who are in it will be limerent for a while. So an SO who is limerent for someone else isn’t going to snap out of it quickly. Unless they leave and get with the LO. But then they’ve blown up the relationship.”
It may be wise to get a non-limerent SO if one wants a very stable relationship, or move on to next one when it starts to crumble down. A life comprises many small journeys.
@Snow: It’s not just West vs. East. There are many people in this country who resist the idea that an SO is a “possession.” One reason why I have issues with the concept of EA’s is that I feel one’s thoughts are one’s own. I don’t police my husband’s mind and I don’t want him policing mine. I don’t snoop into his friendships. I also feel that love is not a sin; actions are the sin. And what actions are sin–that seems to vary from person to person. I have very snuggly and flirty friends, for example. I sign e-mails to friends with “love” while my SO doesn’t like to use the term with his friends. It’s hard to say what “all Americans” think on pretty much anything.
Series Limerent,
“There are many people in this country who resist the idea that an SO is a “possession.” “
Yes, I agree with you. Sorry if my previous post sounded generalizing, it’s that sometime media (films, TV, youtube) makes this “possession” theme so overwhelming. To think it again, in Macho COO, in general, majority of males are also very possessive of their SO/gf, but female are “not” (or are silently), or cannot be, because traditionally, coupled men “own” their women; but not the other way around. I was/am always angered by the inequality in that culture.
“One reason why I have issues with the concept of EA’s is that I feel one’s thoughts are one’s own. I don’t police my husband’s mind and I don’t want him policing mine. I don’t snoop into his friendships.”
I’m with you completely regarding SO. Of course as a limerent, I desire to know LOs’ thoughts and emotions (more than their body), but I truly accept that anything in their (or anyone else’s) mind is in flux, just like my own. As long as their mind is not ALL acted out, it’s okay. Otherwise, I would be first to be heavily punished by those “thought police” all over places both in many cultures.
I hated everyone in COO who attempted to police my thoughts and emotions, which led to my vigilant guarding of my emotions , even loving ones. It’s become such a habit, unfortunately, that sometime I did not know what I was feeling — they were repressed down. I would express them (not any LEs) only to very trustable friends. I’m much less reserved to my Western friends; I envy how free they have felt when expressing their thoughts and sentiments.
I think the line (at least in the US) between a gal being a possession and a man being territorial is sometimes confused. Especially with absolute chaos that is gender relations in this country right now. I don’t own my wife. But I am territorial about her to a fault. That LE was the one of the few falters I have made in that I lost that because I transferred it to exLO due to the rescue complex.
“I’m not jealous, I’m territorial. Jealousy is when you want something that’s not yours. Territorial is protecting what’s already yours.” — Anonymous
That’s the difference. The fault is I was jealous for her, and fell short of being protective of the one woman that is more important than any other.
Adam,
“I’m not jealous, I’m territorial. Jealousy is when you want something that’s not yours. Territorial is protecting what’s already yours.” — Anonymous
In the East, legally or socially, no one owns anyone. ALL women do NOT adopt their hubby’s last name; there is no such a legal procedure. However, based on traditional concepts, once married, women “belong” to men more than men “belong” to women, like some old traditions in the West— the property law.
Traditional territorial male in the East feel/consider they “own” or at least entitled to “control” their SO’s thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. If female is caught in LE outside a marriage, she used to be stoned and thrown to a river (one case very recently). Male always got away with their PA, because it was silently accepted by the society.
In upper or elite class, male almost always go free (not openly) with their LOs (up to 10 at a time with 10 illegitimate children), with their SO’s one eye closed as long as the marriage is kept. But it’s not other way around, a coupled female would be morally frowned or openly condemned, and many were forced to be divorced. In these scenarios, female SO is “owned” by her husband in a moral sense.
Among well educated groups, men and women have their PA (EA does not exist) more discreetly, and feel less to be “owned” by anyone. In this increasing group, jealousy is felt more than territory. Those well-educated females have their own financial means and go around to lead their preferred lifestyle. One of my cousins was taken as a LO-pet by his female boss.
I know this issue in the West is quite different, women’s rights, autonomy and voices are so much more powerful. I don’t follow mainstream media, so is out of touch with what’s going on lately in gender wars….
Miss Snowphoenix
Now that kind of hypocrisy I am not down with. We here in the US in the past have had a lot societal double standards between men and women. Nothing extreme like stoning. But women were definitely ostracized way more for infidelity of any kind than men were. And you would think that we would have come around to a good balance 70 years later; but no.
The pendulum has swung to the opposite end. Maybe I am naive but I don’t understand it. Granted my taught manners and chivalry to women get me called a “simp” or sexist by some. So I guess when it comes to gender relations in this country I am not meant to understand. Another one of my favorites …
“A gentleman will open doors, pull out chairs and hold things. Not because she’s helpless or unable, but because he wants to show her that she is valuable and worthy of respect.”
Thankfully my wife understands why I do those things for her and lets me do them. But I find a lot of younger women, like exLO, take a man doing those things the wrong way.
I remember one day when we were leaving the office when it was raining and I insisted on her letting me walk her to her truck with my umbrella. She said something like “Really Adam? Who even does this anymore? I am capable of walking in the rain.” To which I replied “I do. Why do you think I have this umbrella handy? I walk my wife to and from when it’s raining with this umbrella.” I think the newer generation of women in the US, in asserting their independence, have confused a man’s chivalrous act with an encroachment on said independence. I am a dying breed Miss Snowphoenix. 🙂
Adam,
I’ll take your kind of chivalry at anytime given by any men or women! I give it to elderly in COO and gfs, LOs & SO here sometimes. It’s a two-way traffic if women really want to feel independent in this regard.
I agree with you that some young or very modern women take gender equality on a superficial level, such as in mannerism; while meantimes some women chase shallow relationship one after another, just because they do not want or are afraid of being alone (as Marcia says in her post).
A true independence lies in one’s body, mind and spirit, manifested through one’s lifestyle and his/her mental health, particularly when those women ( and men) are content at ease with their solitary living, by choice or by luck.
Snow,
“Anything emotional is subtly shown through gestures — gift, service, memory of one’s words… it’s such a fine art that you’d know whether one’s interested in you romantically, without explicit telling.”
I don’t think you have to officially state, “I am interested in you romantically.” That would be weird. Just ask the person on a date. That’s the only way to know for sure the guy is serious. If he asks you out.
I know you don’t like the word “date.” I think you mentioned you watched her before in other posts, but the Crappy Childhood Fairy, in her videos, talks about dating and trying to form healthy relationships after limerence. She advises to get focused on what you want. If you want marriage, avoid the guys who don’t. And if you’re not sure if it’s an actual date, ask! There’s nothing wrong with asking.
A man asking you out shows intent; a man getting your cell phone number and texting forever does not.
“Does everyone always know what they want in a complicate matter like love affair or relationship?”
They know enough to realize they’re interested and want to spend time with the person.
“It’s true to me, as well. but we are two INFP limerents. There are other types of people who would not feel the same way as us.”
That’s true.
“I can be attracted by a man’s personality, maybe not his sex appeal.”
Yeah, but if I’m not attracted to his sex appeal, my being attracted to his personality won’t cause me to become attracted to his sex appeal.
“You mean in the dating games/scenes?”
Yes
“What they felt mattered little after 10 seconds I met them. ”
If you’re talking about glimmgering for them, it’s the exact situation I’ve been writing about that you say is shallow. Or at least very similar. Someone sees you from across the room, thinks you’re cute and wants to ask you out. It’s no different than glimmering for someone 10 seconds after meeting them. In both cases, you know nothing about the person as a person. Only that you are having some kind of repsonse to them.
” I met a few men in “organic” social settings, I’d know immediately whether there was glimmer or not.”
That’s exactly what I’m saying. I met these guy friends organically. I felt no attraction to them (or not enough to do anything about) but I liked them and we became friends. If I had glimmered for them, I would thought of them as more than friends.
“My eyes and physical energy could speak.”
Maybe. I don’t think men are as adept at reading the signs of interest as women are. Also, if they are really interested in you (and this is the case for men and women), it can be hard to read the signs of interest because everyone is hoping so much that the other person feels the same way.
“But in my cases “kicking off” was rarely an issue, but their genuine interest in getting to know me as a person not as a LO…”
I’m not sure what you mean. It was obvious to them that you liked them and were interested, they showed interest themselves, and then didn’t try to get to know you ?
“I do, because it’s merely on the physical level.”
So is the glimmer! I glimmered at my LO before I even spoke to him. You can’t get any more shallow than that.
“Butler loved Scarlet as a person, her personality, while everyone else disliked her, except that Melanie.”
Yeah, once he gets to know her, but when he watches her from the bottom of the stairs in the early scene at the barbeque at Twelve Oaks, as she going upstairs to take a nap, he’s looking at her like he’s about to have her for dinner! He’s attracted to her; he’s intrigued. But that’s it. They haven’t even spoken. He doesn’t know her yet.
“I’d love to get to know all kind of people without the word “dating” intended or involved, just like here — one gets to know someone’s inside first, so much richer and meaningful. Aren’t you feeling so?”
So are you saying you want to glimmer for someone and then spend time in groups? I’m not entirely sure what you mean.
I remember being limerent for a guy years ago. We were both single. We worked together. I hung out in groups with him socially after work. We had PLENTY of time to get to know each other. This went on for months. He never asked me out, one-on-one. I finally asked him. There was a reason he hadn’t asked me out and things had never progressed! Weirdest date ever! Too much time “getting to know each other” before dating … I don’t think it’s a good idea. I could have saved myself a lot of time had I asked him a lot sooner … or just picked up on the painfully obvious fact he wasn’t asking me out and moved on.
“I don’t not even discuss these subjects with my gfs! They are too personal. I may discuss them with SO if his heart is big enough to contain my previous LEs.”
I think it’s fine to discuss your romantic history with an SO, in general. But I don’t need to know all the gory details of the previous sex an SO has had. 🙂
“Then we ask them out. Why wait for their first move?”
You certainly can. In theory, I think it’s a good idea. I hate the notion of women just sitting there, waitng, like passive flowers. In practice, alhtough I haven’t done it a lot, it has not gone all that well.
“Maybe he did not want to a PA mess with your professional work. Once he left, he could try it “safely.””
Possibly.
“Most cultures do not teach how to live well on one’s own in spirit.”
That’s actually one of the things I would look for in an SO. If they’ve spent any time on their own.
“Romantic rejection is simply bigger than ALL other types of rejection, it hits/hurts at the instinctual level.”
That’s true. It’s very painful. Although I’d argue the loss of a very close friend can be very painful, too.
“Giving a gift, particularly handmade one, is one symbol of “love act”, but not all”
I was referring to what’ s known as the theory of love languages. It’s how people give and receive love. Through acts of service, quality time, receiving gifts, physical touch and words of affirmation.
I might give love through spending quality time with someone, but if they receive love through hearing words of affirmation, which I am not saying or saying enough, there could be a disconnect.
“I met some superb liars from online”
Ah, ok. Yes, people can be sketchy.
“So you’d let your insecure or jealousy possibly ruin harmony and affection between your SO and you, due to his urgent/necessary handling of his previous gf/LO”? ”
I guess I don’t see it that way. I see it as … if you’re with someone in a committed, monogamous relationship, you are focused on that person. Yes, people develop feelings for others. It happens, but instead of walking toward the feelings or indulging them or entertaining them, you walk away from those feelings.
“Now, with our acute awareness, don’t you think we’d be less prone to fall into a new limerence?”
I hope so. But as I’ve written … the way I avoided it a while back when I felt the glimmer for a possible new LO was to avoid the person. I could feel myself starting to get obsessive with him.
“You think human emotions, especially love/limerence, is like a straight rope that can just be served by a sharp sword?”
I’m not talking about feelings. I’m talking about acting on them.
“You’ve seen LO has existed in some limerents here over 5 decades. “Deep” is meant deeply down inside, or below the radar of subconscious. Avoiding that person or not, it could be still there.”
It could be, yes, but if it had gone on for 5 decades, I’d question what the person had done to deal with the feelings.
“Why do you expect/want so much from SO?”
It’s expecting too much that an SO not indulge feelings for someone else? To not call the person, text them, hang out with them? To avoid doing things that could make the feelings stronger is asking too much?
“It sounds robotic.”
I see it as being smart.
“Again, I can’t even trust myself in the social norm you just talked about. I’ll remain single and die alone.”
You want to stay alone because I suggest it may not be a good idea to not develop a close, one-on-one friendship with a member of the opposite sex who’s married? I guess I’d say … meet other people who could be available for friendship. I don’t mean that flippantly.
“That’s really calculating, unsuitable to heart/love matters.”
Not, it’s not calculating. It’s making sure things are reciprocal. It’s not giving a lot when the other person is giving a little. That kind of uneven relationship/friendship is actually at the root of a lot of limerence.
“It should be going out with a guy I am attracted to, I sufficiently liked, the best I glimmered at. Then, I’d really have no idea where an“adventure” will lead.”
Yes. That’s exactly how I would define a date. A really good date. You glimmered or were attracted, you talked enough (preferrably in person, if you met organically) to know you liked him and he then asked out. And now you’re on the date … seeing what will happpen.
“It may be wise to get a non-limerent SO if one wants a very stable relationship, or move on to next one when it starts to crumble down.”
Even a non-limerent can develop feelings for someone else.
Marcia,
“Just ask the person on a date. That’s the only way to know for sure the guy is serious. If he asks you out.”
I know you’re right. There is no direct translation in COO for the word “date”, which tells you how I feel uncomfortable about it. It’s stress and anxiety loaded. Just asking for a couple of coffee/tea/lunch as new acquaintance for whatever is fine.
“I know you don’t like the word “date.” I think you mentioned you watched her before in other posts, but the Crappy Childhood Fairy, in her videos, talks about dating and trying to form healthy relationships after limerence. She advises to get focused on what you want. If you want marriage, avoid the guys who don’t. And if you’re not sure if it’s an actual date, ask! There’s nothing wrong with asking.”
I like her videos a lot, but coming to her dating advice, I kind of turn “deaf”. Her way is very direct, logical, but NO art of subtlety left. It will kill all my subtle amorous streaks or feelings. I’m not a robot. I do not fix my “want” on an end result, but try experiences a process. However, I know what I do NOT want — binge played at emotionally, physically, and mentally. Normally, I could sense well, except with superb poker players.
“A man asking you out shows intent; a man getting your cell phone number and texting forever does not.”
W/O intent, I’ll treat them as an acquaintance. Normally, I have no time even to text my gfs. Everyone in my town is short of time — seems to be the most valuable commodity!
“They know enough to realize they’re interested and want to spend time with the person.”
True.
“Yeah, but if I’m not attracted to his sex appeal, my being attracted to his personality won’t cause me to become attracted to his sex appeal.
True to me, too. We’re twins.
““What they felt mattered little after 10 seconds I met them. ” If you’re talking about glimmgering for them, it’s the exact situation I’ve been writing about that you say is shallow. “
Nope. Glimmer is 10 or 11 (in scale 1-10) in intensity. Most attractions I encountered is from 5-8.
“Or at least very similar. Someone sees you from across the room, thinks you’re cute and wants to ask you out. “
When it happened, it doesn’t mean they had glimmer. I saw once a man’s glimmer at me, it was like a lightening hit his eyes.
“It’s no different than glimmering for someone 10 seconds after meeting them. In both cases, you know nothing about the person as a person. Only that you are having some kind of repsonse to them.”
A glimmer is the way intense, it shouts into one’s unconscious realm. Upper scale attractions can’t reach there.
“That’s exactly what I’m saying. I met these guy friends organically. I felt no attraction to them (or not enough to do anything about) but I liked them and we became friends. “
I did too. But since there was no Glimmer on my side, two meetings at most, unless they tried to pull me to their religious group. Some of them tried hard, but “no, thank you.”
“If I had glimmered for them, I would thought of them as more than friends.”
If I had glimmer at one, my world was instantly “changed”…. I slipped into a mild LE very quickly — three days with little eating or sleeping. LE #7 was the slowest for me to fall into (9 months), due to the existing marriage. If Dad did not pass away, the golden period between Glimmer and limerence could have stayed longer.
“My eyes and physical energy could speak.” “Maybe. I don’t think men are as adept at reading the signs of interest as women are. “
The contrast between my energy level is like in bipolar disorder (I might have it, never to be diagnosed). I mentioned before when I was in LE with a secret sweet LO in my head, every other waking man aross my path mistook I was in love with them, which caused a couple of highly embarrassing situation for them — they disclosed their amorous feelings or tried to take me to bed.
“Also, if they are really interested in you (and this is the case for men and women), it can be hard to read the signs of interest because everyone is hoping so much that the other person feels the same way.”
I also mentioned that I never give out false signs to string my suitors or limerents, zero interests to keep them around. But if he was LO, then my interest and curiosity about his possible interests in me would be astronomically pined up.
“But in my cases “kicking off” was rarely an issue, but their genuine interest in getting to know me as a person not as a LO…”
I’m not sure what you meant”
I meant a lot men (especially in COO, some here) viewed me (women feared me) as LO material, I wanted them to see me as a regular person.
“It was obvious to them that you liked them and were interested, they showed interest themselves, and then didn’t try to get to know you ?”
Guys from dating Apps just tried to have a PA with me and move on, guy acquaintances from COO didn’t bother to talk or go out with me to get to know me more, but stayed in distance or in secrecy “dreaming” (I was informed much later)
“I do, because it’s merely on the physical level” So is the glimmer! I glimmered at my LO before I even spoke to him. You can’t get any more shallow than that.”
Well, I never tried to jump into bed with a glimmery guy. I unconsciously tried to get their HERAT if not their SOUL (👻). Most limerents go after emotional reciprocation, me being an extreme case, in which my EA desire kills my pair-bonding desire.
“Butler certainly had glimmered at Scarlet at the first sight. But he took time to get to know her and later loved her as a whole person.
“So are you saying you want to glimmer for someone and then spend time in groups? I’m not entirely sure what you mean.“
No, no. I meant I enjoy socializing with people/ghosts without that “dating” goal in mind, but focusing on shared interesting topics, chat, discuss, debate without any realistic interests entangled, not even our identity. We’re exchanging human emotions, mind and spirit without any pre-set goals, except to reduce or remove our limerence pains. If along the way, we make friends with each other’s mind, then it’s unexpected nice surprise, then it’s a bonus.
“I think it’s fine to discuss your romantic history with an SO, in general. “
I brushed over some of xLEs with my SO, but not their intensity and details — too personal and painful.
“But I don’t need to know all the gory details of the previous sex an SO has had. “
NOT for me, either! But I’d be sincerely curious to know their x-relationships, seeing him as a separate, individual human being, not just my SO. I’m interested in all sorts of people, if their mind is unique or intriguing enough.
“You certainly can. In theory, I think it’s a good idea. I hate the notion of women just sitting there, waitng, like passive flowers. In practice, alhtough I haven’t done it a lot, it has not gone all that well.”
It takes guts to do so, due to traditional concerts. I never needed to do it. Two guy friends here discussed (in front of me) to take a turn to take me out for lunch. Some other dates “guarded” me in public, as if I would be stolen by his acquaintances/friends.
“That’s actually one of the things I would look for in an SO. If they’ve spent any time on their own.”
The same with me. I maybe over comfortable on my own and becoming less and less “compromising”.
“That’s true. It’s very painful. Although I’d argue the loss of a very close friend can be very painful, too.”
Two kinds of loss, can’t be compared. Both pains could be deep.
“I was referring to what’ s known as the theory of love languages. It’s how people give and receive love. Through acts of service, quality time, receiving gifts, physical touch and words of affirmation.”
It differs from culture to culture, person to person; but there are universal elements as you point out here. But how to deliver them is really a fine art that one learns during the journey.
“I might give love through spending quality time with someone, but if they receive love through hearing words of affirmation, which I am not saying or saying enough, there could be a disconnect.”
Working couples need to sort out each individual’s quirky ways in communication and other matters.
“So you’d let your insecure or jealousy possibly ruin harmony and affection between your SO and you, due to his urgent/necessary handling of his previous gf/LO”? ” I guess I don’t see it that way. I see it as … if ytou’re with someone in a committed, monogamous relationship, you are focused on that person. “
But this person is still focused on SO, while able to maintain other friendship. A lot of my guy married friends are doing so. And I can do it very well with little effort. I might be a closet polycule, who knows!
“Yes, people develop feelings for others. It happens, but instead of walking toward the feelings or indulging them or entertaining them, you walk away from those feelings.”
Anyone can develop any feelings for any others at any time, that’s going to be FOREVER out of our control. Even they want to, they themselves may not able to control their own feelings, they reside inside one, not out there. You’re talking about walking away from ACTIONs promoted by those feelings. No only can “walk away” from internal feelings. The first principle of Buddhism is: all human beings have 7 emotions and 6 desires — an innate nature. How could anyone control them?
“the way I avoided it a while back when I felt the glimmer for a possible new LO was to avoid the person. I could feel myself starting to get obsessive with him.”
I’m not sure that I could easily get into obsession that easily again, after I’ve learned so much about limerence; my logical mind was normally too strong, when LE was absent. Now I worry that my heavy written analysis is going to kill my Glimmer, before it could take me anywhere forward.
“I’m not talking about feelings. I’m talking about acting on them.”
Actions can be cut, and many here have gone NC for decades, ask why their feelings are still alive, despite their happy marriage or family.
“It could be, yes, but if it had gone on for 5 decades, I’d question what the person had done to deal with the feelings.”
That depends on limerent’s own efforts. As SO, you can’t expect or demand their changes. If the said feelings stay a low-grade inside them, why worry so much? Why set yourself up for suffering of anxiety?
“It’s expecting too much that an SO not indulge feelings for someone else? To not call the person, text them, hang out with them? To avoid doing things that could make the feelings stronger is asking too much?”
No. But where is the word “indulge” coming from? Who talked about indulgence? In my incident, it’s an emergency, that does not happen even every 5 year, but once in a blue moon!
“It sounds robotic.” “I see it as being smart.”
I disagree. There are too many rules like computer programming. I’m a fleshy human being.
“You want to stay alone because I suggest it may not be a good idea to not develop a close, one-on-one friendship with a member of the opposite sex who’s married? “
You totally misunderstood me here: I was saying I’d worry more about myself — I’ll be limerent for new LOs, after I have a SO! My limerence passion always died soon after being reciprocated. Then a glimmer would hit again and again (happened in my marriage, I figured a singleton would suit me better so insisted on divorce). Staying single gives one a total freedom to “love” like Garbo.
“That’s really calculating, unsuitable to heart/love matters.” Not, it’s not calculating. It’s making sure things are reciprocal. It’s not giving a lot when the other person is giving a little. That kind of uneven relationship/friendship is actually at the root of a lot of limerence.”
I agree with you here in theory. I don’t mean to give, give, give forever. It’s a ping-pong game. But both sides need to be WILLING to give more, and then receive what’s given — not always calculating who gives and received more. Selfish LOs/Narcs take much more while giving crumbs as bails for hoovering.
“Yes. That’s exactly how I would define a date. A really good date. You glimmered or were attracted, you talked enough (preferrably in person, if you met organically) to know you liked him and he then asked out. And now you’re on the date … seeing what will happpen.”
Normal attraction is like 6 (scale 1-10). I tried with attractive guys (6-8), it did not work out; I needed that glimmer at 9-10! Again, I don’t want to hear the word “date”.
“Even a non-limerent can develop feelings for someone else”
Precisely! So worrying about others’ feelings is futile and it’s “control”, which would only bring you pains, not one who feels their feelings, think their thoughts.
I might be too “self-centered” to even know how others might be feeling or thinking. It’s a typical trait of my inner child. I’m learning to be more mindful of others’ mental and emotional states. It’s a challenge!
🫂😊
Snow,
“Just asking for a couple of coffee/tea/lunch as new acquaintance for whatever is fine.”
Very few people probably say the word “date” when they ask someone out. “Would you like to go to dinner?” is probably an invitation for a date. The only time I would use the word “date” is if I wanted clarification, which I have not as yet ever had to do.
” but NO art of subtlety left. ”
I’m not big on subtlety.
Oh, the Fairy has a new video titled “Limerent for a Mother Figure.” I didn’t listen to it but I thought of you when I saw the title as you wrote you became limerent because of a subconscious search for a parental figure.
” However, I know what I do NOT want — binge played at emotionally, physically, and mentally. Normally, I could sense well, except with superb poker players.”
If you are talking about love bombers, that’s something different than being direct. Love bombers can be dangerous.
“W/O intent, I’ll treat them as an acquaintance.”
Well, I mean if all he’s doing is texting and hasn’t asked you to do anything in person… there’ s no intent.
“Glimmer is 10 or 11 (in scale 1-10) in intensity. Most attractions I encountered is from 5-8.”
How would you know? Did you ask them to rate their attraction for you? 🙂
“When it happened, it doesn’t mean they had glimmer. I saw once a man’s glimmer at me, it was like a lightening hit his eyes.”
That is a really, really high standard to expect, and it sounds like you are expecting someone to feel attraction or express it in a certain way.
“A glimmer is the way intense, it shouts into one’s unconscious realm.”
For you it might but you have no idea how strongly the other person is feeling it. Again, that’s a really high standard to expect for you or for them. And especially to expect it mutually.
“unless they tried to pull me to their religious group. Some of them tried hard, but “no, thank you.””
That would have turned me off completely.
“every other waking man aross my path mistook I was in love with them, which caused a couple of highly embarrassing situation for them — they disclosed their amorous feelings or tried to take me to bed.”
Exactly my point. They misread your signals.
“I also mentioned that I never give out false signs to string my suitors or limerents, zero interests to keep them around.”
But a man you are friends with may misread your signals. That’s happened to me. They mistook my fondness for them or closeness to them for romantic interest.
“I meant a lot men (especially in COO, some here) viewed me (women feared me) as LO material, I wanted them to see me as a regular person.”
I’m not sure what you mean by LO material. An LO isn’t really someone you pick, like wife material. It kind of just happens.
“Guys from dating Apps just tried to have a PA with me and move on”
Yes, that’s icky.
“Well, I never tried to jump into bed with a glimmery guy. I unconsciously tried to get their HERAT if not their SOUL (👻). Most limerents go after emotional reciprocation.”
I know what you mean, but you don’t need a glimmer or limerence to find someone very appealing and also want to get to know them and have emotional reciprocation.
” But he took time to get to know her and later loved her as a whole person.”
That’s true, but it was the 1860s. A man didn’t just come onto a “lady.” He was required to get to know her and marry her to get her into bed. 🙂 But in all seriousness, yes, he was genuinely in love with her, meaning in love with the whole person.
“But I’d be sincerely curious to know their x-relationships, seeing him as a separate, individual human being, not just my SO.”
Me, too. That’s part of who they are.
“Two guy friends here discussed (in front of me) to take a turn to take me out for lunch.”
That would have turned me off. I’m the one who gets to decide! 🙂
“Working couples need to sort out each individual’s quirky ways in communication and other matters.”
Yes, but it takes someone with a certain level of self-awareness to ask how the other person receives love, versus just plowing forward with however they’ve given love to other people in the past.
“But this person is still focused on SO, while able to maintain other friendship. A lot of my guy married friends are doing so. And I can do it very well with little effort. I might be a closet polycule, who knows!”
I’m not sure how else to describe it. I can’t come up with every possible scenario. If you have an SO and you currently have or at some point develop strong, romantic feelings for someone else, it’s best to avoid that person as much as possible. Current friend, old friend, new co-worker, neighbor. Whoever it is.
“You’re talking about walking away from ACTIONs promoted by those feelings.”
That is exactly what I am talking about.
“I’m not sure that I could easily get into obsession that easily again, after I’ve learned so much about limerence”
I wonder that, too. Have I turned off the limerent gene? 🙂
“Actions can be cut, and many here have gone NC for decades, ask why their feelings are still alive, despite their happy marriage or family.”
I don’t think you’re happy if you’re limerent for decades. Limerence is a psychological escape. So the question would be … what is the limerent escaping from ?
“That depends on limerent’s own efforts. As SO, you can’t expect or demand their changes.”
Very true, but do you want to hang around for them to get over it for 50 years?
” If the said feelings stay a low-grade inside them, why worry so much?”
I don’t know what you mean by low grade.
” But where is the word “indulge” coming from? Who talked about indulgence? In my incident, it’s an emergency, that does not happen even every 5 year, but once in a blue moon!”
We’re talking about two different things. Indulge (if the person has strong romantic feelings) = call the person, try to find them in the parking lot at work, DM them, text them, go to lunch with them, etc. You’re a limerent. You know how this works. 🙂 Behaviors that will inflame the limerence.
In terms of the guy with the airport pick-up … is this the one who asked you to marry him?
I was trying to think of my guy friends …. the one is a little sketch. As I wrote, he’d be down if I was. At least for a one-nighter. He has a lot of affairs. His wife does watch/monitor him. We’re long distance. I don’t hang out with him.
The other … his girlfriend would have nothing to worry about. Yes, he expressed interest, but it was many years ago. He’s very devoted to her. He and I are more like siblings now. So if he picked me up at the airport, no big deal.
” I’ll be limerent for new LOs, after I have a SO! My limerence passion always died soon after being reciprocated. Then a glimmer would hit again and again ”
Yeah, I wouldn’t be crazy about that — an SO who was repeateldy becoming limerent. I could probably wait it out if it happened once, but repeatedly? Idk. Although being a limerent myself, I can certainly understand it.
” Staying single gives one a total freedom to “love” like Garbo.”
I want to be clear: She wasn’t a limerent. She wasn’t zeroed in on one person. She had several relationships going at once, and so did the people she was involved with. I wish I could get to that level of strength. Focusing so much on one person and the outcome with that person causes … well, as we well know … lots of pain.
“Selfish LOs/Narcs take much more while giving crumbs as bails for hoovering.”
Yes. They keep you hooked.
“Normal attraction is like 6 (scale 1-10). I tried with attractive guys (6-8), it did not work out; I needed that glimmer at 9-10!”
To me, those are two different things. Being attracted and someone’s looks/appearance. Most of the men I have been limerent for were not super handsome.
“So worrying about others’ feelings is futile and it’s “control”, which would only bring you pains, not one who feels their feelings, think their thoughts.”
I don’t know how else to say it. I’m not controlling feelings. I am asking them not to pursue those feelings.
Marcia,
It’s unpleasant to talk about these old stuff related to the interactions with LO, but I know each time I put down those annoying stuff on paper, my mind — the residual, repressed, and muddled emotions, gets cleared up more, and thus understand better what had happened during this LE
*****
“Exactly what your LO asked. “Is this an affair?” Or something like that. “
That’s exactly what he asked. I answered, “I don’t think so.” (I really did not think so, but did not know what it was on my part). 3 weeks later in another park meeting I told him about my painful LE #2 and my oath afterwards. On the spot, he said “I don’t think I’ll have much time for you from now on.” I do not respond to that at all. I felt I had no right to “protest” or even asked him to explain what it meant, since he’s unavailable since Day 1 and could withdraw anytime even as a friend. So I backed up quietly trying to recover from another surgical procedure during the 2021 summer break.
In that fall semester, when I wanted to further distance, he started pulling again and complained “we did not do much when we meet.” Seeing I was truly puzzled, he quickly added, “ah….talking is nice…” — Dame it! that was what he asked for in writing three years prior in 2018, and so I kept my respectful distance, worrying to cross the boundaries he had set up.
Before the end of the term, when I asked him again to delete all my emails and texts, he wished (with a shaking voice) “to grow old together”… I was touched (but when and where on earth we were ever “together”? ) by his seeming sincerity. He said something like, “lets our interaction stay casual and see how it goes. If you have any issues, just let me know.” I agreed on the spot but told him in three days (during tea together) that I did not think I could do his way (his way — causal PA, my way — serious EA). He then said that we probably could not find a middle ground.
After that quick tea together, in the begining of 2022, I bumped into his glimmering at his LO.
That’s what you pointed out previously: he’d say morally flawless stuff in writing and I took them seriously and literally. Then later he kept improvising/modifying the scripts, and I was too dumb to understand his evasive intentions or hints, I had no prior experiences in a matter like this! Later in the beginning of 2023, I confronted him in writing with his loads of contradicting written words, then he began getting closer again. But seeing his LO was still in the picture, I decided to serve the tie again in April — to delete all my messages, he said he did.
You see, how many pull-n-push rounds we went back and forth! And I never figured out why he did these, just to keep me to orbit him? He’s already have SO and then a LO. I even asked once, “you seem to have everything anyone could have wanted, why me(not these exact words)”. He got defensive and said (in writing and then in person) something like, “I do not NEED or WANT anything (or anyone) extra at this stage of my life… “. At various time, I wished he could cut me off more harshly, since my limerence brain was totally sucked in.
“Or just disclose their feeings. It can be as simple as, “I’ve been thinking about the two of us getting together.””
The Sun would rise from the West, if these words could ever come out this Sensor LO’s mouth!
“I guess I was saying that if I had received multiple long emails or texts from a guy … I’d think he was probably interested in me. That’s what I’m thinking your LO thought.”
Yes, I now clearly see his misunderstanding is rosen by my bizarre thinking and one-way traffic of messaging. I was in limerence with a surrogate-parent LO, he thought I was hitting him with a PA intended interest, like most limerents do. But it was subconscious, due to my cptsd and the barrier of a morality. He did ask once in 2021, and I told him that monologuing to the Phantom was like speaking to an idealized father figure.
So last April for the 2nd time, I explained/“disclosed” again my intention of those messaging — the therapeutic aim (which worked), never admitted any romantic interest in him, he seemed to be convinced by my HUGE eccentricity in this matter. But he tried to PULL again on the spot — why he had no time to do anything for our “friendship” (he was teaching only two days/week) , and that he could offer so much more to it, etc, etc. I just told him to his face, “in terms of your time and availability, I do not trust you” — referring to the two black lies he made prior in 2022. He then said, “Of course, you don’t have to trust me…. I feel self-defensive now”, then we parted.
In June of 2023, I went total NC and did not send him a birthday greeting for the first time in 6 years. A month later in July, I found LwL.
****
So now can I tell myself by saying: It all happend inside you head?
And the contrasted black, white, peach and gray colors in this limerence are presenting big challenges to what I am supposed to think/do and how I am supposed to interpret my own conflicting, fluctuating feelings….
Thank god, I have Romeo to tutor at least once a week…
I’ve started my Spring break now.
Snow,
“Exactly what your LO asked. “Is this an affair?” Or something like that. “
I think “Is this an affair?” is pretty direct. As direct as “I’ve been thinking about the two of us getting together,” which someone did say to me, but of course it wasn’t someone I wanted!
“And I never figured out why he did these, just to keep me to orbit him?”
Yes. Is he collecting orbiters in an almost sociopathic way like that one semi-LO I mentioned? I don’t know. It’s possible he’s someone you should stay away from completely, like I had to stay away from my semi-LO. It’s possible he enjoyed your company and liked you as a friend but is still someone you need to stay away from because his need for orbiters makes him too narcissistic to be a true friend. It’s possible the orbiter part of him is small enough, you can salvage some kind of friendship. If that makes any sense. 😉 I’ve written on this site that I think it’s very difficult to be friends with an LO. I still think that’s true, but everyone wants to fight me on it. 🙂
Maybe once the limerence is completely gone.
“He got defensive and said (in writing and then in person) something like, “I do not NEED or WANT anything (or anyone) extra at this stage of my life… “. At various time, I wished he could cut me off more harshly, since my limerence brain was totally sucked in.”
That sounds pretty direct to me as well, unless I’m misinterpreting what he said. I would have interpreted that as meaning he didn’t want me in his life. I would have been the “extra.”
“So now can I tell myself by saying: It all happend inside you head?”
I don’t think it’s all in your head. It sounds like you both misinterpreted what the other person wanted out of the situation. He did a lot of push/pull, and the “pull” part was, at times, pretty harsh.
“I don’t think I’ll have much time for you from now on.”
That’s harsh.
Marcia,
Thank you so much for your decoding! Now, you see my handicaps in ESL and interpersonal stuff with a Western LO!
I’ll remember what you’ve just advised me here and keep an open eye and mind to see what happens for the remaining two months. I neither want to be ungrateful nor to slip back into his orbit, nor depart very unpleasantly. So far, I’ve managed to put the past in the past, but the memory of those shady stuff still surges and ebbs, upsetting me; it’s harder to forget…
But now, I can look at Romeo’s two professional pictures online, one of which is quite sweet, softer than the other. Thanks for your google idea. 😊
Marcia,
After the “torture” of my dream last night and this morning, I want to say that I’ll learn some of your “dating” styles, without using the word “dating”. I need much more reality checks, so as to prevent slipping into limerence reveries that ironically could take away my pair-ponding urge (desire could be dormant and deep)….
Previously I thought my nervousness in front of LO prevented me from being turned on. This past Tuesday when we alone after his class, while I was excitedly babbling my demo lesson plan, I noticed LO was checking on me with a more amorous look and he was surprisingly eager to give me suggestions when I was ready to leave. Physically I felt nothing sensuous. I’ve been “clam” in front of him for a long time, including in that hotel room with a bottle of champagne.
I recalled LE #4.8 this morning, I realized that my “asexual” behavior might not be just due to my high anxiety or barriers (it had no barrier in LE #4.8), it might be caused by limerence’s altered state of mind itself, which could perhaps even suppress a sexual urge? Or is it just me, who tended to get aroused mostly in my imaginations/reveries?
DrL: do you have an answer or clue from a neuroscience point of view?
I WOULD turn off Limrence if I have a choice! It’s too beyond control! I would rather to keep a tiger as a pet!
Marcia,
“How many LOs have you had?…. I don’t count crushes as LOs. They were soooo much easier to get over.
I guess I counted LOs, whether had PA or EA (=Emotional Attachment), as those who stuck in my head day and night from 6 months to 4 years, who made some kind of mental or emotional impact in my mind. So I had 15 LOs in total, 7 of them I glimmered at first, other 8 “picked” me up or I got into LE with them without glimmer, like Semi-LO #5. These do not include casual lovers from dating apps.
“I never counted an EA or friendship as reciprocation. It would have to get physical to be counted.”
EA to me means an emotional attachment on my part, and it could last in my head, with little/no physical contact, up to 4 years. And I suffered a great deal from that emotional non-reciprocation, like with platonic Narc LO#3 (my distance cousin living in long distance at the time. There was suicidal ideation in LE #3, although I did not glimmer at him first but was attracted to him a great deal. My Dad verbally kicked him away for a quick NC). Do we count those intense longings, suffering as limerence?
Now, recalling back, LE #1 is not strictly platonic, there was hugging and kissing involved. So only LE#7 remains as only platonic, unrequited limerence that MIGHT have driven my body to produce lymphoma.
“I have wondered that about a lot of limerents. They don’t seem to want anything much to happen with their LOs. They just want to experience the limerent feelings.”
Precisely! That feeling is so rarely powerful, making the entire world looking so much richer and brighter that once it arrives, limerents want to hold it tight at any cost, even if it means having little realistic contact with LOs.
“I usually started to get really frustrated when nothing much happened. Although I was willing to wait forever for it to. Big mistake.”
Well, sooner or later, limerents would want or expect more, everything has an expiration date. There was no exception in my cases, most of which were freer to try; but not the last one with a married SO involved.
“I would call that a crush. You still are into the person but not with the same intensity and it’s not as painful.”
Not so in my cases. I slipped into LE without the glimmer for LO #3, 5, 6, and three other “crushes”, the pain was quite intense. During a severe depression bout In LE #5, I bought a bottle of sleeping pills and stared at it for over a month. Then, I took anti-depressants for 5.5 years.
“Limerence is a probably not a good way to filter for partners if one has had a bad childhood. You can’t trust the feeling.”
I didn’t even know the word “cptsd” until a year before I glimmered at LO #7 and truly learned about its astronomical damaging effect during last summer when I went through Crappy Childhood Faire’s videos on cptsd and limerence.
I was constantly dysregulated but I trusted my ever fluctuated, muddled, intense feelings since little. Cptsd tends to induce limerence, ADHD, OCD, abandonment melange, anxiety/panic attacks, fatigue, etc. etc.
“I’m just amazed how our Unconscious knew/knows which LO to glimmer at!!” It’s glimmering when it subconsciously recognizes the crappy parent in someone!
I don’t agree with you here. Just checked my LO list, those who resembled Mother most are all Narcs (5 in total, whom I did not glimmer at the first sight). In the feminine, sweet, poetic eyes of LO #1, 4, 5, 7, I saw that mysterious familiarity — still don’t know what it is.
”You’d have to like him and find him appealing. Maybe a 7 or 8 attraction. But it doesn’t have to start at a 10. I think being that attracted to someone can blind me to who the other person really is.”
It did happen to me with semi-LO #5, and Narc LO #6, and a couple of marvelous lovers without limerence at all on my side.
“I agree with the philosophy. There’s nothing more ephemera than romance and passion. But nothing will trump marriage. Society organizes itself around marriage and, by extension, family. Friendship will always be a lesser relationship.”
Very true.
Marcia,
“in which he might intend not to “hurt” my feelings, sensing/knowing I was still in limerence with him in 2022. ” I thought he tried to have a PA with you. Did he pull back on that later, sensing your feelings?”
Nope. He made another big black lie to me and then I sent out that accusing letter calling him a Narc and listed all his “Narc crimes”, which made him very angry. But two mornings later, he tried to catch me in the lounge, and I turned around in front of his face. I then went to another 2 months of NC, but did greet him with only “hello/hi” in public space. He was friendly or smiley whenever he pumped into me during those two months. Then I gave up in one very windy, stormy afternoon, in which I felt haunting melancholy and chilly; so I stopped at his office asking a stupid English grammar question. (I often played culturally dumb previously just to get a chance to chitchat with him! 😅)
At the beginning of 2023, he so subtly hinted twice that he’d go out with me if take a lead and set up a time. But sensing his LO was around, I backed up (It would be a lie if I deny that I did not want to go out with him at all). Then I determined to sever the tie between LO and the Phantom in our April meeting, in which he admitted that he had not made any effort for our “friendship” and he could offer much more. But, I indirectly told him that I knew about his LO, “You know what happened, and I know what happened, and you know (he might not) that I know what had happened…. But it’s your own business.” (I’m not his SO!). Then in the following days, he was “stalking” me in the lounge and striking chitchats.
Last fall, my determination of going NC was weakened knowing that I’d leave the job this May — the Fate will do it for me! LO was distanced and annoyingly polite. This spring, the same Karma struck him as well, his usually cheery mood is gone…. But he still sees that LO and even calmly, indirectly tells me so — “I’ll meet someone later… my wife has her dinner appt ….” It is as if he was saying, “hey, this is my current life / my lifestyle…”. I just smiled without any comment.
Well, no matter what happens, in two months, all will be gone! There would be no lounge or hallways to bump into anyone from this job!
“But if this caller is a limerent, adversity might make his limerence stronger.” “It does, but the advice would be the same for a limerent as it is for a crush.”
Yeah, just give ineffective advices! The public needs to know what limerence is and how astronomically detrimental it could be to limerents individuals and their families.
“Actually, I think the best way would be to pair up with a platonic friend and commit to him or her as a partner.”
Not feasible with me, unless this male friend is a hardcore gayman. A woman as a partne to commit to? Only if she could “serve” as my imagined, idealized mother figure.
“Why did you marry him? Weren’t you thinking he’d continue to hook up with other women once you got married?”
I found out his flings one month after we got married, when one of them suddenly showed up at his work. When he casually told me about it, I immediately sensed that this is a x-lover/gf. Later, he confessed the other three.
That time, We were young (25, 22) and still “in love”, we believed we could fix whatever problems that would come up. He insisted they were just emotionally unattached flings and swore inside the freeing ocean water that nothing like that would ever happen again. (Thus only paid call girl later). I trusted him. But limerence/love died on my side soon after all those discoveries. Still I stayed longer until I knew there was no more hopes — even SE became physically painful for me. That’s how psychosomatic this limerent was and still is.
Romeo texted today postponing his class of tomorrow to next Monday, because he could not recover sooner from a surgery on Friday. So we chatted just a bit. He said he’d study more on his own this week and I told him to feel free to ask me if he has questions via texting. I was a bit disappointed when I saw his text right after I woke up; after our brief chat, I felt fine.
Marcia,
“I have wondered that about a lot of limerents. They don’t seem to want anything much to happen with their LOs. They just want to experience the limerent feelings.”
It’s PRECISEly these limerents’ HIGH that inspired uncountable artistic creation throughout the history: Dante’s “inferno”, (saw his LO twice in his life), Goethe’s “The Sorrow of Weather”, Berlioz’s “Symphonie Fantastique” (finished before his LO knew who he was), Standhal’s “on love”, etc, etc, etc. Ask Sammy about his complete epic poem!
My limerence most likely have fallen in this spectrum in that what was/is inspired in my mind MATTERed much more than fleshy LOs themselves or however they reacted (of course, not always). This creative force sometimes was so high that it inhibited my biological pair-bonding desire for them… It might be one reason I rarely got turned on in their presence, but in my reveries, all my best SEs were neither with LOs nor SO, but emotionally untouched lovers…. It seems that my mind can’t hold two strong desires simultaneously…
In another word, I was more than often in limerence with my desires, not the DESIRED. LO served just as a catalyst. Poor me, and poor LOs if they reciprocated! LO #1 confessed the ruin of his life after I departed… LO #2 was on his knees to beg me to stay…SO fell into depression after sensing my “love” for him died within the marriage). I’m not at all proud of what happened, but feel deeply sorry for them and myself — I could not help it! It always saddened me deeply (had fell depression for them) when I saw that I had unintentionally but unavoidably “hurt” some LOs in my life.
It’s hard for majority of practical, logic-minded people to understand or estimate enough the power of limerence’s inspirational, creative highs and its detrimental, painful lows.
Marcia sister,
“Oh, the Fairy has a new video titled “Limerent for a Mother Figure.” I didn’t listen to it but I thought of you when I saw the title as you wrote you became limerent because of a subconscious search for a parental figure.”
Thank you. I’ll check it later. As I said before, I almost feel no need nowadays to have a parental figure in my life. LO appears like a teenage boy to me, although he still tries to advise me and patiently listens to (in person) what I had to “complain”…🙂
“Well, I mean if all he’s doing is texting and hasn’t asked you to do anything in person… there’ s no intent.”
You still did not get it: in 99.9% of time, I did not care whether other side had intent for date, but only whether I had it. Nowadays with less time, I don’t deal with so-so friends or any guy from any app, not even in long-term, social groups online.
Coming here is an exception, it’s a therapy that I still need. Plus, I like thinking, jotting down my often tangled thoughts, and clarifying them. Every chat, no matter how short it is, brings my mind some new “food”. 😁
“Glimmer is 10 or 11 (in scale 1-10) in intensity. Most attractions I encountered is from 5-8.” How would you know? Did you ask them to rate their attraction for you?
Again, I cared ONLY how I rated them. If there was no Glimmer, however they rated me had no importance to me. I never rated my old acquaintances and friends, though. Friendship is much more important than some instant attraction that comes and goes, that’s how I was up!
“That is a really, really high standard to expect, and it sounds like you are expecting someone to feel attraction or express it in a certain way.”
You misunderstood me again! I NEVER expected or needed men to glimmer at me. If a guy did first, earlier than me, he’s lose his chance to ever become my LO. I repeated this many times: All my glimmers (in 2 digits) took place when I accidentally set my eyes on a stranger man first, who was neither looking at me, nor even knew my existence. Then usually, I would not know who they were until at least a couple of hours later if there was coincidental chance. (It took 4 month for me to come across LO for the 2nd time.) I did not try to seek them out. I let FATE/CHANCE decide everything after the glimmer. 🫓
I never glimmered at any guy at a social gathering, because normally I was spotted first, at parties, weddings, even by a half of a theater (Kennedy Center in DC), which was always highly uncomfortable. I was shy, insecure carrying unknown cptsd wounds inside me and disliked public attention, especially unwanted one. 🙈So I never went to restaurant, bar, party alone (cafes or movies, operas, plays are fine.
In COO, I was told that the timid, makeup-free me “ruined” a couple of weddings (got more attention than the brides, one of them was very sweet trying to comfort my “dismay”).
“For you it might but you have no idea how strongly the other person is feeling it. Again, that’s a really high standard to expect for you or for them. And especially to expect it mutually.”
You’re right that I would not know other side’s mind, but I rarely cared, unless the glimmer had already struck. It could NOT be mutual based on my inexplainable preference — if a guy was looking at me, there would be no glimmer for him! My Unconscious did all picking. Strange, isn’t it?
With Romeo, it was shocking because he was, of course, looking at me as he opened the door, so the glimmer physically pushed me back a step! I think he saw it and was a bit surprised by my reaction. I introduced myself with a shaky stuttering… so embarrassing!
“That would have turned me off completely.”
They did turn me off.
“Exactly my point. They misread your signals.”
True. Without knowing what limerence was, I could not help my giddiness that could cause others’ misunderstanding. Later, I did learn to rein my LE “high” in front of others. Still, I got attention in public even from dogs.
“But a man you are friends with may misread your signals. That’s happened to me. They mistook my fondness for them or closeness to them for romantic interest.”
So I’d remain a friend to them, if they feel comfortable enough. But usually they did not, sensing my “high” was for someone else. I never told them anything about my romantic life or who LO was.
“I’m not sure what you mean by LO material. An LO isn’t really someone you pick, like wife material. It kind of just happens.”
Okay, maybe I should use another word: PA material. How about someone men (or even women) fancy to get physically close to you at first sight, and coupled women fear at first sight that their men might fancy you, too? One of My gf’s gloom was struck by a glimmer at their wedding ceremony instantly when I shook my congratulating hand (I saw it in his eyes), and landed at my door alone four weeks later, pretending to look for his newly wed wife. I threw him probably the worst contemputuous look, then he never showed his face to me again. (They got divorced 5 yrs later due to his PAs)
“I know what you mean, but you don’t need a glimmer or limerence to find someone very appealing and also want to get to know them and have emotional reciprocation.”
Unfortunately I did/do. Without it, I was totally unable to pretend I was interested. I’ve met a lot of more handsome guys than LOs, but could not be attracted at first sight. I simply needed to glimmer at them first… That’s my lot!
“Two guy friends here discussed (in front of me) to take a turn to take me out for lunch.” That would have turned me off. I’m the one who gets to decide!
Yea, both of them were from same religious group, one was a secretary of a big Bishop in my town. I went out with each just to learn something about their faith and what got them into it in the first place. I knew I had no glimmer for them (are friends of my gf.), but my curiosity helps expand my social circle.
“Yes, but it takes someone with a certain level of self-awareness to ask how the other person receives love, versus just plowing forward with however they’ve given love to other people in the past.”
Exactly. Each person behaves somewhat differently while dealing with different romantic dynamic. So the past experiences can NOT be refereed. One needs to ask how the other side prefers to give and receive affection from YOU. You two create a new, workable dynamic that suits only you two.
“I’m not sure how else to describe it. I can’t come up with every possible scenario. If you have an SO and you currently have or at some point develop strong, romantic feelings for someone else, it’s best to avoid that person as much as possible. Current friend, old friend, new co-worker, neighbor. Whoever it is.”
Do you know how boring it could be, limiting oneself only to SO or coupled friends? If my SO cannot put up with my existing or past friendships, colleagueship, or neighbors, I will leave him! I can take all his, I know I can, as long as PA is not involved. I also know that I only limerent for one LO at a time, never two. But now, if my limerence gene is removed by LwL, I might become a polycule. Blame DrL! 😁
I wonder that, too. Have I turned off the limerent gene?
Very possible! 👍🏼
“I don’t think you’re happy if you’re limerent for decades. Limerence is a psychological escape. So the question would be … what is the limerent escaping from ?
Using word “limerence” is too strong, how about tiny bit, residual romantic feelings for an xLO?
Many limerents here claim LE occurred when they were happily married, including DrL, you could ask them directly. I had 2 unacted-upon glimmers during my marriage, but I was not happy with SO, there were relationship issues.
“Very true, but do you want to hang around for them to get over it for 50 years?”
I would not. But some SOs do for material comforts or stability or realistic security. As you said previously that many people fear to live alone.
During the meeting in which LO asked that question “is this an affair?” he also declared clearly, “I don’t want my marriage of 22 years to get affected!“. So there went his request for a “casual” thingy, the idea of which I just could not stomach. But I was still stuck in my limerence unable to get out, so I stayed aloof as a “colleague friend” in distance. His later LO could be PA only (for a mutual benefit), I don’t know for sure.
LO’s SO has been regularly seeing her xLO for dinner (to easy his mental issues), about which LO could not do much(a henpecked SO), besides taking a LO of his own — just my guess. I refused his wanton suggestion without even knowing its meaning until you clarified yesterday — it’s understandable, not evil to hurt me. I just could not go for PA without EA first.
”I don’t know what you mean by low grade.”
Having memory of those old LOs without much strong emotions, or active interactions. I remember all my LOs, without feeling a string of ripple inside me, even those Narcs. And I completely forgot some “trivial” LOs.
“We’re talking about two different things. Indulge (if the person has strong romantic feelings) = call the person, try to find them in the parking lot at work, DM them, text them, go to lunch with them, etc. You’re a limerent. You know how this works. “
I know it for sure. I thought we were not talking about those indulging cases, but emergency helps for old romantic flames or xLOs.
“Behaviors that will inflame the limerence.”
Not everyone is a limerent, or a limerent like me — without the glimmer, bringing me the moon would not make any differences.
In terms of the guy with the airport pick-up … is this the one who asked you to marry him?
Yes. But there are about 10-15 guys/xclassmates would do the same if I had asked. They’d drop whatever they were doing and come to your rescue. I don’t think many Westerners have enough clear ideas about what a trustful, loyal friendship means in COO.
“Yeah, I wouldn’t be crazy about that — an SO who was repeateldy becoming limerent. I could probably wait it out if it happened once, but repeatedly? Idk. Although being a limerent myself, I can certainly understand it.”
It’s a risk to marry/pair up with another limerent. I had 2 LEs during my marriage without acting on them. But SO could clearly feel it, I was unable to hide well my distracted feelings. If I had known how to deal with LE back then, I would probably have not got the divorce. Limerence is NOT love, but a mental sickness/addiction.
” Staying single gives one a total freedom to “love” like Garbo.” “I want to be clear: She wasn’t a limerent. She wasn’t zeroed in on one person. She had several relationships going at once, and so did the people she was involved with. I wish I could get to that level of strength. “
I never consider(ed) Garbo or stereotype French women as limerents. They could be a “ploycule” without suffering limerence pains.
“Focusing so much on one person and the outcome with that person causes … well, as we well know … lots of pain.”
I’ve learned my lessons. That’s why we are here — to hopefully remove limerent gene.
“To me, those are two different things. Being attracted and someone’s looks/appearance. Most of the men I have been limerent for were not super handsome.”
Some of my LOs were so common, that I was shocked by my own picking after LE was gone! As I repeatedly said that my major LOs all carry similar Aura: sweet, feminine, gentle, poetic, erudite, introvert… not just physically attractive. There was that familiarity in all their eyes when I glimmered at them, which was rarely seen. I see at least over 100 pairs of eyes each day in public.
“I don’t know how else to say it. I’m not controlling feelings. I am asking them not to pursue those feelings.”
Did you pursue your limerence feelings? Feeling are produced within, being pursued or not. A lot of time they are involuntary, even unmanageable by their owners. It would be a “miracle” if owners can name all of them and treat them wisely. And, more one resists an unwanted feeling, the stronger it gets! SO needs to be truly understanding and accepting to a bearable degree; otherwise, SO needs to leave the relationship for her own wellbeing.
🫂🫂
Marcia,
I never felt jealousy after SO reciprocated, only once during this active LE#7. So I wonder if limerence is gone after SO enters the picture, would we limerents still feel insure or jealous towards SO’s residual feelings for his xLOs or new LOs (always possible)?
You probably would feel more at ease as well once you get your SO. Now you are talking in theory, worrying a bit much. 🫂
Snow,
“Nowadays with less time, I don’t deal with so-so friends or any guy from any app, not even in long-term, social groups online.”
That’s a good standard to have. I just see it with my friends. Texting a guy forever, thinking something is buliding between them but they’ve never once met face-to-face.
“Then usually, I would not know who they were until at least a couple of hours later if there was coincidental chance. ”
Ah. I would have searched for them. If I glimmered for someone (since it happens rarely), I would have tried to find out who they were (if possible).
“I never glimmered at any guy at a social gathering, because normally I was spotted first, at parties, weddings, even by a half of a theater ”
Where did you meet them? At work?
“It could NOT be mutual based on my inexplainable preference — if a guy was looking at me, there would be no glimmer for him! My Unconscious did all picking. Strange, isn’t it?”
Yes. 🙂
“Okay, maybe I should use another word: PA material.”
There are guys who are down for strings-free sex.
“I simply needed to glimmer at them first… That’s my lot!”
That’s a lot of hurdles. You have to glimmer. (I dont’ know about you, but glimmering is very rare for me. Meeting, as you wrote, a 10/10 attraction is rare.) Then you have to glimmer first. Then fate puts you together later.
And if you want something to happen with this person (I won’t use the “D” word :)) … they also have to be interested in you and things have to move forward. And I’m assuming you’d want a serious relationship in that you don’t like casual. That’s a lot of hurdles. Unless you rarely get into relationships with LOs ?
From where I sit now, I realize that my standards were too high. I wanted to glimmer for someone before agreeing to a date.
So first I’d have to glimmer, then he’d have to be interested in me as well, then he’d have to pursue me (or accept me pursuing him) and then he’d have to want an actual relationship with me (versus something casual, if a relationship was what I wanted). That’s a lot of hurdles! That’s happened ONCE in my life. Where all of that lined up. (Things have moved forward with other LOs, but they weren’t serious relationships. A casual sexual relationship, for example.)
I’ve also come to understand that people I glimmer for are probably not the best choices.
If i were to date again, I would say yes to someone I had some level of attraction for and liked as a person. I’m talking about saying yes to a first date to see where things went.
“Do you know how boring it could be, limiting oneself only to SO or coupled friends? If my SO cannot put up with my existing or past friendships, colleagueship, or neighbors, I will leave him!”
Please read what I wrote. I specifically wrote … if you have strong romantic feelings for the person. I mentioned my one guy friend. I could hang out with him. Although now he’d probably bring his GF along. Which is fine. There’s nothing that she can’t be witness to. That’s an example of the opposite-sex friendship I was talking about. Everything out in the open. If the SO wants to come along, that’s fine. If she doesn’t, that’s fine.
ButI look at friendship differently than you. Maybe it’s a Western thing. Friends come and go. You can probably count on your had the number of real friends you’ve had at the end of your life, and that’s if you’re lucky.
“Using word “limerence” is too strong, how about tiny bit, residual romantic feelings for an xLO?”
That’s probably fairly common. I have that for my most recent LO but no feelings for the ones before that.
“Many limerents here claim LE occurred when they were happily married, including DrL, you could ask them directly.”
Yes, but you see what Dr. L did. He disclosed to his wife and went NC.
“LO’s SO has been regularly seeing her xLO for dinner (to easy his mental issues), about which LO could not do much(a henpecked SO), besides taking a LO of his own”
Maybe he had an affair to get back at her. If he and his LO had an affair. It’s possible. I had a friend who did that. Had a PA to get back at her husband for having a PA. She didn’t even like the guy she had an affair with.
“Having memory of those old LOs without much strong emotions, or active interactions. I remember all my LOs, without feeling a string of ripple inside me, even those Narcs. And I completely forgot some “trivial” LOs.”
That’s fine. I have memories of my exLOs. But I have no desire to contact them or see them in person. Even the most recent one.
“I thought we were not talking about those indulging cases, but emergency helps for old romantic flames or xLOs.”
I don’t have any experience with this. I don’t keep xLOs in my life. Or ex-boyfriends. Or ex-crushes. If they rejected me, I didn’t hang around. If I rejected them, they didnt’ hang around.
“Behaviors that will inflame the limerence.”
“Not everyone is a limerent”
You’re reading it too literally. Behaviors that will inflame the feelings. The strong romantic feelings.
The radio host who had the married caller with the crush … the advice was to leave it alone. They were co-workers. Nothing had happened outside of work. He told the caller … don’t get her number, don’t text her, don’t try to have lunch with her one-on-one. Leave it alone. Treat her like any other co-worker.
“I don’t think many Westerners have enough clear ideas about what a trustful, loyal friendship means in COO.”
That’s probably ture.
“Limerence is NOT love, but a mental sickness/addiction.”
And that’s the worst part. It isn’t love but it is so distracting and consuming, that it can wreak havoc on the relationship with an SO that is love.
“They could be a “ploycule” without suffering limerence pains.”
Yes! And that’s the ideal. 🙂
“Some of my LOs were so common, that I was shocked by my own picking after LE was gone!”
I’ve experienced that, too.
“Did you pursue your limerence feelings?”
Yes, mam. I sure did. With every LO I had. Asked them out or came onto them. A couple pursued me. At that time in my life, I wasn’t going to walk away from those feelings.
“I never felt jealousy after SO reciprocated, only once during this active LE#7.”
I’m not sure what you mean. Your SO had an LO?
“I never glimmered at any guy at a social gathering, because normally I was spotted first, at parties, weddings, even by a half of a theater (Kennedy Center in DC), which was always highly uncomfortable. I was shy, insecure carrying unknown cptsd wounds inside me and disliked public attention, especially unwanted one. 🙈So I never went to restaurant, bar, party alone (cafes or movies, operas, plays are fine.”
@Snow: I’m beginning to think you’re Komi from Komi Can’t Communicate. 😉
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14626352/
Terribly shy, but draws attention everywhere she goes because she’s drop-dead gorgeous. 😉
@Serial Limerent,
Thank you for your wild imagination. 😊
“I’m beginning to think you’re Komi from Komi Can’t Communicate. 😉”
I might be a Komi who has cptsd 🥹 — She did not know why she was often fearful, did not know why she always got unwanted attentions that made her feeling she was from out space, and she did not know how to feel/express her entangled feelings, since almost no one really bothered to listen…. 🥺
I don’t want to be drop-dead gorgeous because it would be a curse…. 🌩️
Marcia,
I just watched Crappy Childhood Fairy’s “limerence for mother figure”. It made a sense to my cases, except that I desired a mother-figure in men, never in women, which explains why most of LOs were very gentle, feminine — LO #4 & 5 were/are frequently taken as a gay in public. There were 4 -5 minor LOs (among a dozen) were quite masculine (3 Narcs, 1 playboy type…). I slipped into platonic, yet very clingy LE #1 & 7 when I especially needed a mother and father figure, respectively. But my mysterious glimmer was “chosen” by the Unconscious, which seems to have little to do with cptsd or anything conscious. 🧠
“Texting a guy forever, thinking something is buliding between them but they’ve never once met face-to-face.”
My long-term online social groups are all my HS or college classmates, no outsider is allowed. I don’t text or chat anybody online that I’ve never met. LwL is the only online place where I actually “speak”, but here is an anonymous topic-focused forum/“rehab”, not a realistic but “ghost” social group. 👻
“Ah. I would have searched for them. If I glimmered for someone (since it happens rarely), I would have tried to find out who they were (if possible).”
In HS and college, I “chased” this glimmer, I guess, due to hormone surge; but not later. Either way, I got reciprocated either in PA or EA usually within 6 months. There were several LEs (Minor available ones), when the guy responded trying to communicate with me either in words or in eyes, I immediately backed up — tongue tied and ran away from their amorous gaze…. , so they withdrew while my LE for them continued longer after their withdrawal. ☹️
This has puzzled me to this day! (I talked this here on the “dream” blog). It’s really like that I was in limerence with my own limerent passion/desire, instead of the desired — a fleshy LO. In one of discussion with Sammy last Fall, we talked about the possible limerence for one’s own limerence desire, like Nietzsche says: “Ultimately, it is the desire, not the desired, that we love.” I could not remember what I read in Nietzsche when I was 13. 🧒
In this LE #7, I clearly recognized that I cherished my “passion/limence” for LO more than LO himself, possibly because I realized that this passion was within me, IT was/is truly MINE, nothing external. That might explain why I did not care about his rare response and expect so little, as long as I could keep my unrequited limerence passion going…. Very early on, I even told LO in writing what I feared was to “lose mine” (meaning feelings), that’s when he said, “Let’s keep dialogue like two ordinary human beings peddling through this imperfect life…” Yet, later when I just limited our rare meetings to respectful dialogues, he then complained “we don’t do much when we meet… ah, talking is nice…”. You see, I was always so naively literal! 😦
“Where did you meet them? At work?”
College, graduate school, work, library, conference, small social gatherings, internship, workshops, retreat… etc.
“There are guys who are down for strings-free sex.”
That’s why I value friendship much more even if not much “close” communication involved like your style of friendship. 👬
“That’s a lot of hurdles. You have to glimmer. (I dont’ know about you, but glimmering is very rare for me. Meeting, as you wrote, a 10/10 attraction is rare.)”
It’s rare for me, too. I had 8-9/10 smaller glimmer which led much shorter and less detrimental LEs.
“Then you have to glimmer first. Then fate puts you together later…. I’m assuming you’d want a serious relationship in that you don’t like casual. That’s a lot of hurdles. Unless you rarely get into relationships with LOs ?”
Yes, it was a lot of hurdles… LE #1,2,3 were in COO. LE # 4 over here was a relationship leading to a marriage. Afterwards, not many.
“From where I sit now, I realize that my standards were too high. I wanted to glimmer for someone before agreeing to a date.”
That’s no difference from me.
That’s a lot of hurdles! That’s happened ONCE in my life. Where all of that lined up. (Things have moved forward with other LOs, but they weren’t serious relationships. A casual sexual relationship, for example.)
For some people, it NEVER happened in their entire life; but could be paired up and have comfortable life. It’s our limerents’ dismay to helplessly or unreasonably want so many hurdles. We did not know or understand about limerence. 😞
“I’ve also come to understand that people I glimmer for are probably not the best choices.”
Probably the same here, with my cptsd. Based on Faire Mother, cptsd makes us neurologically “blind” in choosing our pair-bonding partners, due to our traumatic attachment in childhood. I’m just amazed how our Unconscious knew/knows which LO to glimmer at!! It took place sooooo fast! 🙊
“If i were to date again, I would say yes to someone I had some level of attraction for and liked as a person. I’m talking about saying yes to a first date to see where things went.”
I think that’s really wise! Not sure if I am able. I have such a poor poker face in social interacting, could not pretend like a child. 👶
“But I look at friendship differently than you. Maybe it’s a Western thing. Friends come and go. You can probably count on your had the number of real friends you’ve had at the end of your life, and that’s if you’re lucky.”
In the East, romantic relationships and passions are considered come and go, but friendships last, if they are made with efforts and substance. When one gets old with little libido left, what remains, beside solid friendship, comprised mostly interesting, carefree conversations and limited physical activities, which are gender-free, biological drive-free❓
“Yes, but you see what Dr. L did. He disclosed to his wife and went NC.”
Yes, that’s wise! But some SOs could not be that much rational or strong.
“Maybe he had an affair to get back at her. If he and his LO had an affair. It’s possible. I had a friend who did that. Had a PA to get back at her husband for having a PA. She didn’t even like the guy she had an affair with.”
LO#7 doesn’t look like a “revenge” type, and denied (after his LO appeared) he ever had PA, which was clearly a lie, in which he might intend not to “hurt” my feelings, sensing/knowing I was still in limerence with him in 2022. He does not know anything about “limerence” yet, as far as I know. He knows I addictively“saw/treated” him as a surrogate father/mother figure, manifested through my hundreds of missives — a small museum of collages!
“The radio host who had the married caller with the crush … the advice was to leave it alone. They were co-workers. Nothing had happened outside of work. He told the caller … don’t get her number, don’t text her, don’t try to have lunch with her one-on-one. Leave it alone. Treat her like any other co-worker.”
That’s a good advice, if such a crush is inappropriate or dangerous. But if this caller is a limerent, adversity might make his limerence stronger.
“Limerence is NOT love, but a mental sickness/addiction.” And that’s the worst part. It isn’t love but it is so distracting and consuming, that it can wreak havoc on the relationship with an SO that is love.”
In that sense, it’s worse than all other types of addiction, e.g. chemical substances. But if SO is a polycule or a true Stoic, then she or he might not feel so hurt.
“Did you pursue your limerence feelings?” “Yes, mam. I sure did. With every LO I had. Asked them out or came onto them. A couple pursued me. At that time in my life, I wasn’t going to walk away from those feelings.”
I guess I did, too. I’d find all sorts of excuses to be in their path, and it was fairly easy to spot my glimmer through my inflamed eyes. Usually I got reciprocated either with EA or PA within 1-2 months. LO#7 is only exception, he is only, “truly”unavailable one (not to his LO for PA, though)
“I never felt jealousy after SO reciprocated, only once during this active LE#7.” I’m not sure what you mean. Your SO had an LO?
My SO is a non-limerent. But he had 4 flings between our engagement and wedding, one month after which I learned about them. Two of them came back to “demand/harass” a continuous interaction with him, they are from two Eastern cultures. As a newly wed, I was furious, but not jealous. So I dragged SO (he could not do it alone) to confront one and I angrily shouted at her (smaller than me) to stay away. Then SO and I served a court hearing to the other girl for her harassment (just to scare her, which made her to beg). Then we relocated to another city soon. Later when I was on a trip for a week, he paid a call-girl for two nights, I was angry, made him to take medical test, and then let it go.
Soon after that, my glimmer began to arrive, both were from a married man, I barely spoke with them, but my limerence feelings could be detected by SO. He knew I would not step out of the line. When the 3rd crush (not glimmer) was looming, I realized that the “dead” marriage would restrict me from pursuing all my future “love”…. We were both very young, it was unfair to lock either side in, so the divorce. Towards the end of the marriage, SO took my encouragement and dated a girl again from the East, it was totally fine with me, since I had refused to have sex with him for a while.
Snow,
” There were 4 -5 minor LOs (among a dozen) were quite masculine (3 Narcs, 1 playboy type…). I slipped into platonic, yet very clingy LE #1 & 7″
How many LOs have you had? From the age of 18 (I don’t count high school; I had a lot of crushes in high school, once I got out of high school, the number of people I was attracted to greatly decreased.) So from 18 to current age … I have had six LOs. One semi-LO. The one who floated in and out for years.
I don’t count crushes as LOs. They were soooo much easier to get over.
“I don’t text or chat anybody online that I’ve never met.”
Gotcha. I don’t, either.
“Either way, I got reciprocated either in PA or EA usually within 6 months.”
I never counted an EA or friendship as reciprocation. It would have to get physical to be counted. I had a physical reltionships with two and got into a serious relationship with one. The others became friends on some level. Except for the last one.
“It’s really like that I was in limerence with my own limerent passion/desire, instead of the desired — a fleshy LO. In one of discussion with Sammy last Fall, we talked about the possible limerence for one’s own limerence desire, like Nietzsche says: “Ultimately, it is the desire, not the desired, that we love.””
I have wondered that about a lot of limerents. They don’t seem to want anything much to happen with their LOs. They just want to experience the limerent feelings. I usually started to get really frustrated when nothing much happened. Although I was willing to wait forever for it to. Big mistake.
“I had 8-9/10 smaller glimmer which led much shorter and less detrimental LEs.”
I would call that a crush. You still are into the person but not with the same intensity and it’s not as painful.
“For some people, it NEVER happened in their entire life”
I’m not saying it was a good thing. It wasn’t a good relationship. He was a terrible choice. A rather disgusting person. I used to blame him for the implosion of the relationship, but that’s not entirely fair. My feelings for him were pretty shallow. When the limerence ended, my interest really decreased. I didn’t have a deeper attachment to him.
“Probably the same here, with my cptsd.”
Limerence is a probably not a good way to filter for partners if one has had a bad childhood. You can’t trust the feeling.
“I’m just amazed how our Unconscious knew/knows which LO to glimmer at!!”
It’s glimmering when it subconsciously recognizes the crappy parent in someone!
” Not sure if I am able. I have such a poor poker face in social interacting, could not pretend like a child. 👶”
You’d have to like him and find him appealing. Maybe a 7 or 8 attraction. But it doesn’t have to start at a 10. I think being that attracted to someone can blind me to who the other person really is.
“In the East, romantic relationships and passions are considered come and go, but friendships last”
I agree with the philosophy. There’s nothing more ephermal than romance and passion. But nothing will trump marriage. Society organizes itself around marriage and, by extension, family. Friendship will always be a lesser relationship.
“But some SOs could not be that much rational or strong.”
True. He is one of the lucky ones who could become limerent for someone who also made a good long-term partner.
“in which he might intend not to “hurt” my feelings, sensing/knowing I was still in limerence with him in 2022. ”
I thought he tried to have a PA with you. Did he pull back on that later, sensing your feelings?
“But if this caller is a limerent, adversity might make his limerence stronger.”
It does, but the advice would be the same for a limerent as it is for a crush.
“But if SO is a polycule or a true Stoic, then she or he might not feel so hurt.”
Or French! 🙂 Actually, I think the best way would be to pair up with a platonic friend and commit to him or her as a partner. Then you each could have lovers. When you got involved with an LO or a crush and the feelings died, you’d still have your friend and could go out to find another LO. 🙂 Because the limerence will end. It always does.
“I guess I did, too. I’d find all sorts of excuses to be in their path”
Yes! “Oh, I didn’t know you’d be here.” 🙂
“My SO is a non-limerent. But he had 4 flings between our engagement and wedding, one month after which I learned about them.”
Why did you marry him? Weren’t you thinking he’d continue to hook up with other women once you got married?
“Towards the end of the marriage, SO took my encouragement and dated a girl again from the East, it was totally fine with me, since I had refused to have sex with him for a while.”
The LO I had a relationship with was running around, too. I suspected it but when I finally confirmed it, I wasn’t all that upset. I was pretty checked out of the relationship by then. I think he was waiting for me to scream and yell at him. I never said a word about it.
Just a quick update from me.
My limerence continues to fade and fade. I would say it’s basically over. 🙂
Some people report the waning of limerence coincides with feeling flat/depressed or thinking the world lacks colour. I haven’t found that so much. (Although it’s true that the world loses some of its brightness). What I’m much more impressed by is the … conspicuous reduction in intrusive thoughts. I.e. at the end of limerence, the mind seems uncharacteristically empty. Or, at least, mine does…
Also, today, found out something totally shocking about my LO. I found out his marriage failed. And it didn’t fail recently. It failed like a decade ago, and I didn’t even know – I truly had no idea. Apparently, his wife left him for his best friend. One week, he and his wife were planning their second child, and the next week his wife asked for a separation. His wife is now married to his best friend.
I found out all this information in a social media video my LO made about emotional growth and surviving trauma. I’m just so shocked. I only feel sad for the guy now, and sad about his situation. I don’t like him anymore. I don’t lust after him anymore. I don’t feel attracted to him anymore. (No spike of dopamine in my brain when I watch content he’s created, although he remains very attractive objectively and seems spiritually deeper than he used to be). 👍
I don’t really believe in karma. But, if I were superstitious, this could be an example of karma. My LO betrayed me and then many years later the same thing happened to him. My LO didn’t betray me intentionally. (He never knew I wanted something from him. I didn’t know I wanted anything from him). But he “betrayed” me in the sense that I experienced pain/suffered very low moods as a result of my infatuation with him – an infatuation he didn’t actively discourage.
Like I said, wow, just so sad for the guy. So much pity. Naive of me perhaps, but shocked that seemingly “perfect people” don’t get to live out “perfect lives”. (Both he and his wife seemed perfect on paper. He was handsome and successful; she was talented and beautiful). If good looks and money can’t produce long-term marital happiness, well, I don’t know what can. Shocked. Shocked. Shocked.
Also: super-happy I’m no longer infatuated with this guy! At least now I can feel pure compassion for him, rather than compassion mixed in with other less noble motivations e.g. glee or excitement that he might be available again now. 🙄😆
I think this is the end of the breadcrumb-trail-through-the-forest, folks. I lost a cheesy teenage fantasy, but my LO lost something far more precious – his actual wife of more than a decade. No need for “War and Peace”, Pt. 5. Reality is much sadder. 😲
IT is an example of Karma, whether one believes it or not.
It happened to my LO #5….
“IT is an example of Karma, whether one believes it or not.”
@Snowphoenix.
Hm. I don’t really see it as karma. If it’s karma, my XLO has paid too heavy a price for his so-called wrongdoing, and the cosmic scales are still out of balance.
Listening to my XLO talk in a prerecorded video about his misfortune, and seeing the genuine sorrow in his face and eyes, has greatly altered my feelings for him. My feelings for him have shifted in a very positive direction. I feel warmth for him, because I see him as a human being in distress. I feel sad because I can see he is sad about the things he’s lost. (Wife, family life with wife, dreams of shared future with wife). Mind you, he did not make the video knowing I’d be among the anonymous viewers.
I’ve never seen him so emotional before, and it makes me feel very emotional too. But I don’t feel any addictive rush in relation to him anymore. So I can feel compassion for him, minus any envy or resentment or bitterness. I almost feel like: “That’s the person I would have befriended in school if only he had shown me that person. That’s the real him.”
It’s such an unusual and unexpected ending to the whole story. I feel quite taken aback in a way. I definitely have a sudden urge to hug my XLO, if he were near. But it wouldn’t be a selfish “give me ecstasy” hug. It would be an unselfish “I’m sorry your life turned out so horrible, bro” hug. 😢
Sammy,
I can totally resonate with your emotions for your xLO.
Because the same happened with me with LO #5.
After his sudden shocking divorce, guess what happens! I became his “confessor” for the following 6 months! and felt very sympathetic and empathetic, listened to him hours after hours of the “plight” of his marriage.
Still, while he tried to get a rebound from me, could not get his emotional reciprocation I desired! Without a glimmer ever for him, without realistic compatibility, i limerented for him before and after his marriage, How crazy limerence could go?
Then after his enmeshment with a polycule, after my LE #6, he came back to me again, I took him in again feeling so sorry for his broken heart and depression. Did I get my emotional reciprocation? No, no, no.
I DO genuinely feel sorry for all mysteries of relationships, limerence or not, it is a default of life — Buddhistic view.
I meant: “miseries of relationships”.
Hi all,
second working day with LO over.
I‘m not quite sure how I feel.
I wrote earlier that reality checks go one way or the another- either I‘m positively or negatively surprised. This time I‘m both. Not surprised, I mean, but I see both, I see where he is not that attractive or behaving again a bit awkward towards other people, lacking certain manners, his backside is not bad but not amazing either;) (my SO‘s definitely better)…
But his work is flawless again, or just really how I like it, and he‘s still a lovely man whom I like very much.
I cannot be relaxed while working , I feel that I generally hold back because I don’t melt down in limerence, avoid too much eye contact etc.
Also, it’s a challenging week and another challenging guest worker involved where I also have to direct my attention.
I‘m scared of this week ending without enough contact (it seems to me at the moment that he will leave for good because now it could be that his SO gets a job offer in his new town), and that it was the very last time we worked together, and I won’t have let myself enjoy it- on the other hand I’m scared to let down my guard and let limerence stream in because it would be ten steps backwards and he would leave anyway.
The cat refuses to crawl into the bag so far, and pencils didn’t get dropped (but, as you noticed, I checked out his backside anyway😎)
*“because I don’t want to melt down“
Mila,
Hold you rein tight, you’d feel worse if 10 steps back, because nothing better but worse would come out your possible one-life-time closer to him. Unlike me, you also have SO.
LET him go…. So your “pure” friendship will remain eternally!
I’m rushing to class in 4 mins, sorry for too straightforward.
Snow,
Thanks for the pep talk!
there will anyway never anything happen between us, don’t worry, these reins I‘ve got in my hand, and he’s got them even in a better grip.
We‘ll see if the pure friendship will survive this ordeal🤷🏻♀️…
Hey Mila,
Well, I am glad that you’ve not had crazy ups and downs. Actually, this is the goal that us limerents all want to achieve.
Putting pressure on yourself to ‘enjoy it’ never works. Also, you might be asking too much of yourself. Especially with a new guest worker to break up the dynamic (I have had horrific experiences there myself….).
It sounds like you appreciate your LO but have it all in perspective. You are not even freaking out about his final decision to leave looking more likely. I think it sounds as though your executive brain is winning the battle. This is great progress!!!!
I had tbe first feeling of being ‘over’ my LE today. They didnt last very long – but I havent felt that way before over my intense limerent period of at least 2 years…maybe we are in recovery?
Bewitched
I love your optimistic attitude! I had a bit of ups and downs, but nothing crazy. I think actually, constant exposure to LO (like when he would come back) would level the limerence (level? Maybe wrong word)and even end it at some point.
So I guess, either way he decides will be good for getting out of this LE, it truly is the uncertainty that keeps me there.
I‘m glad you felt that your LE could be over. It means it will probably be over some time. Remember the snail house? You will pass the same spot over and over again, but in the end you’ll find the exit?
Was it you who wasn’t sure if she wanted to find the exit at all?😅
Let’s struggle on, I think we can make it.💪🏻
@Snowphoenix.
I am still having great difficulty understanding your point of view regarding limerence. I’m not picking on you or anything. However, when I read your posts, I invariably come away feeling dissatisfied, like there’s something missing from the equation…
Your commentary comes off as robotic at times and almost lacking in a sense of shared humanity, intellect and flamboyance notwithstanding. You’re trying too hard to sound reasonable and enlightened, like you’re the self-anointed “Queen of the Reasonable People”, “High Priestess of the Definitely Not-Hysterical Club”. However, no matter what moral stance you adopt, it doesn’t come across as genuine/authentic. Like my mother, you’re trying a little too hard to project a false image maybe? 🤔
At first, I thought you were immature. Now I don’t think you’re immature. Now I think you may be emotionally blocked. I think you’re having extraordinary difficulty accessing your true emotions, and expressing your true emotions.
How do YOU feel about limerence, Snow? Try to determine your own response. Try to stay with your own emotional response once you’ve figured it out. And don’t aggressively seek validation from other people for your response. Your response to limerence is your response to limerence, and you’re allowed to have that response because it is yours. You don’t have to mirror people you admire.
I don’t really agree with your definition of emotional reciprocity. It sounds like you see reciprocity as merely someone copying your quirks in conversation. It sounds like you see reciprocity almost as a game of tennis, where the other person keeps hitting the ball back. And maybe the tennis metaphor is apt from a dopamine perspective. (Your brain gets a buzz from attention received in response to attention given). However, a family member or platonic friend could provide you will the same attention, so it’s not really proof of desire.
When you tell other posters to “cheer up”, I find that a little patronising. I know you mean well. But I think you’re invalidating what the other person might be feeling in the moment. Not everybody is a diehard Stoic/wannabe Buddhist. I.e. maybe the other person doesn’t want to cheer up? Maybe the other person needs to wallow for a time, and a true friend would let that person wallow? 😉
The problem with your Stoic-Buddhist mindset, Snow, is it makes you come across as cold and inhuman. And yet you’ve had 7 LEs apparently and wish to keep riding said rollercoaster. So where’s the fun-loving rollercoaster girl in your posts? I’ve yet to meet Fun Rollercoaster Girl… 😲
Are you at war with your emotions? I sense that you experience strong emotions, or feel like you’re being whipped about by strong emotions. Yet you don’t seem grounded in your own emotional truth. And you don’t seem able to accept responsibility for your own emotions. I.e. “I feel love, hate, despair, joy. boredom, pleasure, excitement, etc. etc. in this particular moment, and that’s cool.”
“To answer again one of your older post on whether you could ever fall in limerence again, I’d say, with your analytic abilities, you’d NEVER be able to slip into LIMERENCE even if you want to. I’m pretty sure of it after my new glimmer.”
I get the impression that you don’t really understand me, Snow. It’s not a competition over who can have the “bestest limerence experience ever”. 😆 Nor is it a competition over who has the most impressive self-control. It’s not a competition at all. Limerence is an incredibly personal experience, and I don’t think one person’s LE can be compared to another person’s LE. (Limerence frequently only has deep significance to the individual limerent).
Would I like to experience limerence again? Well, I’m not opposed to limerence in moral terms. I don’t see it as inherently wrong. Never say never. But if I were to experience limerence again, I think I’d like a more controlled and less overwhelming experience of limerence. I’m not sure if “controlled limerence” still counts as limerence, though? I think I’d like to experience a slow-burning love for someone, a slow-burning love that enhances my life but doesn’t consume me.
If I did experience limerence a second time, I think my analytical abilities wouldn’t prevent the attraction, but my analytical abilities would help me better navigate certain tricky points in the attraction. For example, if I were experiencing depressive thoughts as a side-effect of infatuation, I wouldn’t panic, as I did in the past. I would be able to tell myself that “depression is just depression”, “depression will pass”, and “depression is not the end of the world”. In other words, I think I’d be better at mitigating negative emotional spirals. 😜
Long story short: now I feel able to handle any future potential LEs a lot more gracefully because I feel I kind of understand the nature of the beast. I think I’d show a lot of poise while riding out the storm. The effects of dopamine on the brain, however, should not be underestimated – dopamine is a natural high. 😇
Sammy,
A quick response here (I need to go to sleep for Mom’s appt. In the morning).
“Would I like to fall into limerence again? Well, that is the million-dollar question. A part of me would like to fall into limerence again because I enjoy the boost in energy and the associated creativity. However, another part of me doesn’t wish to fall into limerence again because limerence is such a big investment of time. What percentage of one’s lifespan does one wish to spend down a rabbit hole? “ (@Sammy)
My previous message was responding to your old post from “Winter’s House”. I was not comparing or competing anyone’s limerence with anyone else’s limerence. Only one word I focused on is: Fall in. I was saying that based on my new experience of Glimmer, one, particularly YOU, will not “Fall” in limerence again, because one cannot consciously FALL. OUR awareness in limerence and observation of it would prevent a “FALL”.
With consciousness or choice, we could WALK into the rosy stage of a new limerence, and ride its lows out, if they come in, with preparations and expectations, just like your examples of dealing with depression.
You complex mind still theorizes a lot in your post, I spoke from my two-time direct experience in interacting with Romeo, and from observation of my mental and emotional activities while teaching a potential LO, not one yet.
I’d like to continue observing myself as a case study, during this post Glimmer state. So far, so good!
To be continued….
“ride its lows out, unhurt nor upside down”…
I really enjoy reading Snow’s posts and very much relate to them.
I enjoy your posts too Sammy, and relate to many aspects of them. Different to Snow’s but equally valid.
I think this blog is an opportunity for people to work through their feelings and intentions in whatever way works for them given their unique and individual culture, experiences and mindset.
To respond Sammy’s complex views, I had to write a marathon thesis in almost all my posts to him! 😕
One simply can’t “chitchat” with his 🎾….
Sammy 🎾 ,
Thank you for your thoughtful message, I feel flattered to get so much your conversational attention. Your words have span and shuffled my brain cells. I don’t have all answers or clear views to your questions or points, but please allow my second tongue in English, as well as in “thoughts am emotions” to be rambled here again. 👻
“I am still having great difficulty understanding your point of view regarding limerence.”
I have some thoughts on my OWN limerence, but not clear views on limerence in general, everyone’s case is unique, some are very different from mine, which is still evolving, with LO at the edge of its door and a new glimmer hanging high in the sky.
“I’m not picking on you or anything. However, when I read your posts, I invariably come away feeling dissatisfied, like there’s something missing from the equation…”
Honestly, I do feel being “picked on”, since my posters were analyzed so much in public. If too psychological “naked”, I feel uncomfortable; if I just hint or go indirectly, you feel “dissatisfied”. Am I supposed to satisfy your curious quests and anyone else? I’m a limerence sufferer like everyone else here, trying to find effective ways to manage its complexity and pains it inflicts.
Did you expect to get some satisfaction before you read my posts? I’m still at the end of limerence (maybe it’s an illusion), so it’s natural that I am unable to speculate it as clearly as you yours in a longer distance . You’ve left LO a while ago and been in LwL longer than me. Based on what I read in your posts (not all yet), you absolutely know more, at least in your own case, about limerence.
“Your commentary comes off as robotic at times and almost lacking in a sense of shared humanity, intellect and flamboyance notwithstanding. “
So besides I am childish sometimes (which is true), I’m also robotic? This is a term I’ve heard for the first time in my entire life🙊. Can you give me some examples of my commentary? I hope you don’t believe I’m an AI, right? 🤖 What is your notion of “shared humanity”? by everyone from every corner of the earth, or just from the West?
“You’re trying too hard to sound reasonable and enlightened, like you’re the self-anointed “Queen of the Reasonable People”, “High Priestess of the Definitely Not-Hysterical Club”. “
Perhaps it’s not TRYing to SOUND reasonable or enlightened, but a desire and efforts to be more reasonable and enlightened? As many of us here, we scrabble here mainly for ourselves to figure out own limerence related issues. Sometimes we say things we believe and want to be, but not there yet (in my dialogue with Marcia and Allie i). By writing them down, they confirm/affirm our future goals to ourselves, don’t they?
Nonetheless, I don’t remember I’ve ever gone “hysterical” during this LE #7. (Might silently in my previous “LEs”??), my upbringing would absolutely, subconsciously forbidden that from happening, If you knew how you’d feel when Mother’s hand suddenly landed on your face violently. Then my COO and my personal 35% narcissistic traits would prevent me from showing my mental and emotional vulnerabilities in public. Nonetheless, In some smaller aspects of my life, I am “reasonable and enlightened. “ 🤫
“However, no matter what moral stance you adopt, it doesn’t come across as genuine/authentic. Like my mother, you’re trying a little too hard to project a false image maybe? “
I will try to avoid the word “moral/morality” in all my posts, it’s my private matter. Genuine/authentic? You’re saying I’m fake? Fake as a limerent or a whole person? Well, none of us know each other in whole, just in one area.
I don’t know what to feel or think about that I’ve been compared to your mother several times. To me, it seems to be a criticism since you talked/complained a great deal about your disappointments/damages? in growing up with her. It also seems to be a flattery since I remember the statement you made in an earlier part of the blog, The Glimmer — “Certainly, I’ve been attracted to women who are similar to my mother. (Mummy issues much?)” Am I attractive? 😎 Is my deduction logical? — I’m pulling your legs here 😇
Whatever I appear to be doing here to you, I want to assure you one truth: I’m not trying to project an image of any kind, let alone a “false” one, why? I wish I could stripe off layered ideologically, culturally conditioned coats I’ve been wearing, so I could breathe more freely. As I repeated several times, this is only place I could say things that I’d never dream of saying in reality or on any other non-anonymous websites. But it doesn’t mean I am and will be comfortable enough to be totally “naked” here.
Still, LwL is a place one can be totally free without worrying being affected in some forms in his/her reality — can you imagine if our realistic bosses/spouses/SOs are following our posts here? Moreover, what’s the point to “project a false image” to ghosts on an open forum? We already wear necessary social masks in realistic society, do we want to continue with another mask in a “ghost” land? We want to be freer and somewhat more “naked”, but it is the biggest challenging to be emotionally, mentally, and psychologically naked for any introvert, isn’t it? 🫣
“At first, I thought you were immature. Now I don’t think you’re immature. “
Seriously, I KNOW I’m still immature in some aspects of my life, eg. The previous interactions with my “parental” LO, you, and some people in my reality. But I also have some parts that are mature(r) (in my subject eyes), maybe due to my COO upbringing, or adversities I’ve been through, or self-learning and self-growth. No one is all immature or all mature in all arenas; don’t you think each of us have multifaceted parts? 🌌
“Now I think you may be emotionally blocked. I think you’re having extraordinary difficulty accessing your true emotions, and expressing your true emotions.”
I haven’t thought of this point until now. But you might be on a “correct” topic. In COO people’s emotions and sentiments have often been ignored, judged/mocked/morally attacked, and rejected to be talked about or dwelled upon. I grew up, along with my peers, not only not knowing how to recognize and express my emotions, but also feeling embarrassed to have all kinds of colorful emotional hues, which I thought nobody else had except me. In addition, Parents’ and peers’ mockery made me retreat further into my own inner world. I found solace, freedom, and joy in classical literature, 📕 which helped present and express a lot of unspeakable or inexpressible human feelings and emotions in their physically quiet but mentally “loud” ways 😢🥹😔😞☹️😘😡😁😕😑🤢❤️🩹😭💐
“How do YOU feel about limerence, Snow? Try to determine your own response.”
I feel many things about my OWN limerence, not limerence in general, not in others’ cases. I’m an INF-P, not INF-J — I don’t like and am not good in theorizing or generazling anything, not even my own felt experiences. The adjectives I use may be vague, may contradict each other, but that’s all I can do now. ——
My limerence (#7) has made me feel childish, embarrassed, stupid, ignorant, weak-willed, immature, sad, sorrowful, regretted, illogical, uncertain, restless, giddy, flamboyant, alive, creative, worthy, longing, confident, lucky, hopeful… In my own case, I did/do not feel limerence has ever reached to a level of a mental pathology, since I could almost totally compartmentalized my fantasy and reality, the Phantom LO and colleague/friend to the point that I thought I was dealing with a third figure in between, so dizzily surreal. In short, I went through 3.2 movements of “Symphonie Fantastique”, but never completed even 3.5th movement.
“I don’t really agree with your definition of emotional reciprocity. It sounds like you see reciprocity as merely someone copying your quirks in conversation. “
It’s my error that I did not have time and energy to add physical interactions that contribute to emotional interaction and reciprocity. I think you might have some misunderstanding here, or I did not express my thoughts clearly enough: While quirks in conversation can be copied, individual spirit and passion cannot be copied; one’s enthusiasm and sincerity cannot be copied, one’s spontaneous improvisation or creativities cannot be copied, one’s focusing on and caring for his or her conversation/activity partners cannot be copied; one’s physical energy level and magnetic field while conversing cannot be copied….
Emotion reciprocity needs both parties’ five fleshy senses to be present in order one to feel and catch those intangible feelings or sensations, SPONTANEOUSLY aroused or synchronized ON SPOT, even if one does not aim on any physical connection/intimacy yet. With only words on paper, everything, emotions, tends to be theoratical.
A lot of times, content of conversations or specific activity is a side point, but HOW conversations/activities are carried out is far more important. And all the above I just listed need in-person interactions (online dating would not work)! As I chatted with Anna in another blog, written words can actually be illusively dangerous misleading the recipient, depending on his/her cultural background and experiences, his or her individualistic interpretations and imaginations. I had a big dose of share in that erroneous compartment in those two online dating experiences.
“It sounds like you see reciprocity almost as a game of tennis, where the other person keeps hitting the ball back. And maybe the tennis metaphor is apt from a dopamine perspective. (Your brain gets a buzz from attention received in response to attention given). However, a family member or platonic friend could provide you will the same attention, so it’s not really proof of desire.”
Your “tennis metaphor is apt from a dopamine perspective. (Your brain gets a buzz from attention received in response to attention given). “ vividly captures a truth of all sports, conversation is also one kind of sport/dance — a verbal one.
Moreover, emotional reciprocity need to be expressed or carried out through concrete actions, not mere words. One can call it a game of tennis, ping-pong, or a more subtle inter-dependent or interwoven dual “dance” or whatever. Otherwise, one’s emotional “play” would be like throwing pebbles to a lake, like those in unrequited limerence.
I think there is a cliche scenario where love is “mocked”, at least in COO — a man eagerly says to a woman, “I love (or care for) you!” The woman asks back, “then show me your love (care), Dear”; The man touches his chest, “it’s here in my heart”; the woman goes, “can I touch it with my hand?” Or “Show me its shape, size and color”; the man then says, “what delicious food can I get for you now?” …. They’re tackle jokes, but you get my point — emotions are shapeless and untouchable, they can only be expressed and reciprocated through eyes, mutual concrete activities, e.g. conversation. Inspiriting or emotionly provokative dialogues are certainly a form of art, as you know very well.
While interacting with family members or platonic friends, Glimmer does not exist; so players’ motivations and attitudes in plaything tennis would be different. I am able to carry all sorts of conversations with my male/female friends, but I’m NOT necessarily eager to seek out those conversations or other mutual activities. When I did, I noticed my attitude was relaxed, warm, sincere, caring, empathetic, sympathetic; but it was NOT eager, inquisitive, observant, desirous, or insecure — I was more of a listener.
Once one falls/walks/dives/jumps in an infatuation stage after that glimmer, no matter what kind of attachment style, she or he would feel certain degree of insecurity — because they so desire to be accepted and embraced by their potential pair-bonding mate, in naked body, mind, and soul. NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE, is ever confident enough that the other side would reciprocate, or reciprocate in their wished fashion! My point is that one can detect, maybe more women, emotional stated of the other side while carrying on conversations and dual activities.
“When you tell other posters to “cheer up”, I find that a little patronising. I know you mean well.”
I copied it from other sweet souls as a polite ending of a message; it’s a just good wish. Why mines, not others’, sounds “patronizing”? Q&A with you, Marcia, and some others is fine, but not all or new comers. Should I respond like a professional therapist: Stay with your depression or hysteria or tears or hangovers or chocolate?
“But I think you’re invalidating what the other person might be feeling in the moment.”
To appropriately validate others’ feelings of moments is an art of therapy (as well as friendship), by professionals or laymen. If you remember my cptsd/“emotional orphan” background, when did I ever get such validation while growing up? Monkeys see, monkeys do! Monkey does not do what it has never seen. That’s why I know I behaved like a child, not knowing how to care about others’ needs, particularly mental and emotional one, eg. I cared little about how LO felt or thought for himself or others, but only how for me.
“Not everybody is a diehard Stoic/wannabe Buddhist. I.e. maybe the other person doesn’t want to cheer up? “
Are you saying that Stoicism/Buddhism is meant to cheer up practitioners’ spirit? They’re mental skills/tools that allow sufferers to see where roots of their pains come from, thus to grabble with that only their own mentality could and would help eradicate those roots. No one else can do this for them.
“Maybe the other person needs to wallow for a time, and a true friend would let that person wallow? “
A good point. I’ll try to practice that. But again, a hard work of removing any kind of mental pains lies on sufferer’ mind and psychology. As a sympathetic ghost, could I try to offer some possible, workable “solutions” to other suffering souls?
I can’t post part 3 here, for some reasons.
To be continued.
Part 4:
“I get the impression that you don’t really understand me, Snow. It’s not a competition over who can have the “bestest limerence experience ever”.
That’s definitely a truth. I still have very limited knowledge or understanding who you are, particularly with your Aspie characteristics and sensitivities. Your mind seems to be really complicated, sometimes making things more than they were or not there at all. But once you mentioned, they would lead my ignorant mind off track to some new territories, which was exciting and learning at times, but boggling at other times.
I already answered earlier about competition in limerence. That’s one example you had made something out of nothing — why would I bother to compare or even compete my limerence with yours or anyone else’s? I was trying to illuminate a hope, for all of us, you particularly, that with LwL knowledge, limerent cannot unconsciously FALL into limerence again. To walk, jump, run, or dive in limerence is possible, but it’s a conscious choice.
“Nor is it a competition over who has the most impressive self-control. It’s not a competition at all. Limerence is an incredibly personal experience, and I don’t think one person’s LE can be compared to another person’s LE. (Limerence frequently only has deep significance to the individual limerent).”
Isn’t that my stand all along? Are you seeing how your mind goes off the track once that word “competition” got into your head? Particularly I was predicting the future, not going backwards to anyone’s past LEs.
“Would I like to experience limerence again? Well, I’m not opposed to limerence in moral terms. I don’t see it as inherently wrong. Never say never. “
I’d still like to get that limerence high for creativity, but master some skills to avoid or ride out it lows— particularly the “addiction” stage. The best way is not to get into barrier-loaded situations in the first place or simply appreciate and enjoy glimmer TRULY without any expectations, like with Romeo now.
“But if I were to experience limerence again, I think I’d like a more controlled and less overwhelming experience of limerence. I’m not sure if “controlled limerence” still counts as limerence, though? I think I’d like to experience a slow-burning love for someone, a slow-burning love that enhances my life but doesn’t consume me.”
You are theorizing love here, not limerence.
“If I did experience limerence a second time, I think my analytical abilities wouldn’t prevent the attraction, but my analytical abilities would help me better navigate certain tricky points in the attraction.“
Your analytical abilities may aid you to enjoy more the attraction.
“The effects of dopamine on the brain, however, should not be underestimated – dopamine is a natural high. “
I never had any other kind of addictions, especially to those chemical substances, so I am unable to compare any similarity or difference between other type of dopamine effects and that of limerence.
May I suggest something here? In the future, if I would have made ignorant, or culturally improper jokes or teases, if I would have said something that is hurtful to your individual sensitivities, could you clarify them with me first, before spitting a dragon’s fire out of a sunny sky? Thank you in advance!
Sammy — Part 3:
“The problem with your Stoic-Buddhist mindset, Snow, is it makes you come across as cold and inhuman.”
Well, that’s heavy judgment! and you’re not picking on me? If true that I am “cold and inhuman” to everyone else here, then it means I need more practices in Stoicism and Buddhism, while my existing mindset already helped me “survive” a dragon’s sudden fire “out of blue” and heal from its “burn” within 4 days. I even “thrived” — no more rabbit jumping in my chest while thinking about a job interview coming in three days….
Now back to those two bloody “isms”! Both Stoicism and Buddhism focus on training one’s own mentality. The former is to understand a human Nature — others’ thoughts and emotions, and the external world at large, is beyond anyone’s control or wishful thinking. What is limerence after all? — Pining or Carving, or obsession, for LOs reciprocation (I know it’s neurochemistry involved, almost impossible to control/manage) beyond reasons. When LO can’t or won’t reciprocate, who sufferers?
The latter, Buddhism, is to truly accept human beings’ universal 7 emotions and 6 desires (naturally brings pains while unmet) in every sentient being, and to cultivate understanding, compassion for oneself and others. So we would not be so harsh on our own and others’ uncontrollable desires or emotions. Meanwhile, with proper mental trainings, our logical or executive mind can prevent us from acting on those desires improperly.
I only have a dilettante Stoic-Buddhistic mindset, perhaps it’s my style of tough love for other sufferers? How much have your 27 therapists’ sympathetic and empathetic listening helped you? I’m really curious to know.
Unable to upload part 3.5.
Part 3.5 —
My poor emotions are heavily analyzed here 😫😀
“And yet you’ve had 7 LEs apparently and wish to keep riding said rollercoaster. So where’s the fun-loving rollercoaster girl in your posts? I’ve yet to meet Fun Rollercoaster Girl… “
Why do you want to see a “fun-loving roller coaster girl” in my posts? I barely have enough time to answer your “war and peace pt. 4” and keep up with some other posts, let alone to go back to my previous LEs to show you any kind of girl I was. In addition, how many “fun-loving roller coaster” riders, with CPTSD, have you met ?
As I mentioned before, only my LE #7 could be considered as a “true” limerence, due to its intensity, length, and barrier. The other 6 were reciprocated, either with EA or PA, in one day or one and half months (longest). Therefore, limerence died quickly and the dynamic changed into a regular dating/relationship, before reveries or creativity even took place. LE #7’s barrier, scope and intensity made all precious “LEs” look pale and unmentionable.
“Are you at war with your emotions? “
Maybe. Sometimes, I don’t know what I’m feeling. There is a habitual tendency to curb ambivalent emotions down, due to the said cultural conditioning when young. I don’t like feeling my vulnerablities, even less to dwell on or show them, but I can clearly feel/see them. In COO, we learned well how to masterfully suppressing and hiding them. I don’t even have enough COO vocabularies to definite or express them.
“I sense that you experience strong emotions, or feel like you’re being whipped about by strong emotions. Yet you don’t seem grounded in your own emotional truth. And you don’t seem able to accept responsibility for your own emotions. I.e. “I feel love, hate, despair, joy. boredom, pleasure, excitement, etc. etc. in this particular moment, and that’s cool.”
I can feel some that you just mentioned, but would not “ground” in them. They bubbled up, and went away/down before finding their ways to be clearly recognized or bravely expressed. I mentioned once that in order to finish my homework (in college) on a prose, I had to drink a half bottle of wine, to let my mind relax and go “wild”. Once, my therapist asked me to describe them to her as a practice, I could not because I did not know dearly what I was feeling at the moment.
My reasoning is a way much stronger, suppressing a lot of emotions and thoughts, negative or positive. It bothered/annoyed me so badly in 2019 that my mind could not control and get rid of my LE rumination, knowing all its detrimental effects on me. That’s when I began my Stoicism learning. Nowadays it’s better since I accept all my emotions quietly through Jungian’s individuation process.
People of LwL,
I‘m really exhausted. Somehow this week is really tough for me. I‘m not doing my best work and I cannot relax and enjoy LOs company, as I would like to. He tries to catch my eye sometimes (would have to explain my line of work which is too revealing) but I just ignore him, and when I come home I‘m sad because of it.
We talk a bit in breaks, but I don’t know. I‘m just sad lots of the time, although I don’t feel a strong attraction to him or something.
He must notice my behavior but he is still friendly and looking for contact and everything, I feel bad for being so uptight.
I‘m on the verge of telling or texting him that I‘m sorry I‘m being that way.
But maybe not a good idea. Or is it? It’s not disclosing because I can explain it by being sad that he will leave etc (which is true).
His SO didn’t get the job offer in his new town, but I still think he will leave although he says he has honestly no idea how he should decide and feels bad the whole time.
It’s all a mess- I can see all his bad and awkward sides in plain sight but I‘m still very much a mess because of him.
A big part of it isn’t limerence though, I think, a big part is really just knowing him so well and liking him genuinely and not wanting him to leave.
Too late, I texted something🤷🏻♀️.
If he now reacts insensitively, it will be a step out limerence😅
If he reacts nicely, maybe I can relax more tomorrow.
My guess is, he will react but not very forthcoming- he will think that he is forthcoming and warm and nice, nut it will be a tad less reaction than „normal people“ would show. I know him so well…
Hi Mila, this has to be a really tough week for you (and I’m sure for him too). I don’t think I have any particular advice for you, just want to say I really feel for you. Goodbyes are really sad. Endings are sad. Limerence is sad when there’s just really no chance for a happy ending. Usually the sadness is proportional to how much you care about the person. I hope you get the type of response to your text that would make you feel better; I hope that you’re able to have some nice interactions in your last days of working together that you can remember. Do you and him have any sort of plan together for the end of the week like dinner with the families or a little time just the two of you, or is it up in the air how the week will end? Would it be nice to have something planned at the end of the week to look forward to and maybe have some little sense of closure to the week?
Hi Mila, I’m just back from a Business trip and behind on lwl a lot ! so fortuitous the first comment I read is yours.
Im sorry this week has taken a bit of a downturn following your upbeat breezy approach to this week.
I hope you get a good response to your text but don’t put too much emphasis on these damned text messages and emojis and such !
I was gonna say to you that you WILL see him again after this week, maybe not in the same capacity or dynamic that the work environment brings ( you prefer that of course as it is the place that truly connects you to each other), but you WILL still see him again as you have that outside of work proper friendship with SOs too. Hang on to that I would say.
And not put so much emphasis on this week. I guess it’s his last day at the work place tomorrow ? I know it’s hard, I would be really struggling with that btw. My LO face to face meetings are charged with the reality that it could be the last time so I have all the craziness that brings, as you can imagine.
I don’t know Mila, I think you have maybe a good opportunity tomorrow at lunch or break to ask him how he is actually feeling about being back working at your place this week and the future etc. sometimes more open conversations can actually help limit limerence if LO comes back with some very practical reality checking facts ( as mine did on my last f2f )
Maybe wear red tomorrow! I do this to push me to be more positive and in control – ha ha !!
Imho,
By the way, I wore red today and will probably tomorrow too;)
How are you feeling in the meantime about this event you won’t go to?
If I would have to make a bet, I’d say you haven’t seen your LO for the last time for sure.
Our messages crossed over at the same time ❤️
You wore red today?! Yey that’s funny. I make myself wear stronger hues, to help me be less introverted. Thanks for thinking of me…. no urgency on all of that right now. Our company is cutting travel budget a lot so chances of seeing him again are diminishing, unless I do it outside of work related reasons which is a whole new territory. Last call we had LO did ask if I had any other friends in his country. So I took that as interest I may connect a visit. Sadly I don’t have any other genuine reason to go to that country!
I will be on your virtual shoulder as you are pouring the drinks and serving canapes at the party! Try to enjoy the occasion. Easier said than done Im sure …
Mila,
Just want to say that I could resonate with your sadness because I was in your shoes last fall, after learning that I had to leave work whining the next 9 months. LO did not seem to be sad back then. As you know, at one point I thought of disclosure but never did, because he showed no interest in knowing anything. So I was sad all alone, besides coming here to ramble other stuff to distract my LE sadness. I was holding back my reality even here.
I’m also at the state where you are: feeling a deep sadness for the coming departure but could not feel any emotional closer LO. I’m a bit relieved that nothing crossing the line has ever happened between LO and me. Since it was a dead end from Day 1, a PA would have made my LE a lot worse, which would make this permanent separation even sadder.
Your LO was your friend, so I assume and hope you guys could keep your friendship whatever he decides to do about his job. I don’t know what you are expecting to hear back from LO, but wish whatever he responds could make you more at ease.
Wish you have some quiet time for yourself and stay with your sadness or fluctuating feelings.
Thanks Snow!
I’ve already known for ages that he might leave for good, that’s what triggered limerence, before that we were simply friends for ten years or something.
I start to think he won’t respond at all because he read it the minute after I sent it but hasn’t replied yet.
Won’t have much quiet time for the next 1,5 weeks, but lots of distraction next week when I will work as a guest in another town..
Thank you all, you are all lovely. I don’t feel so alone even if he really won’t reply.
Hi Lost in Space and Imho,
Thanks so much for your compassionate responses! I‘m so glad to have you here.
Well, if he decides to leave he will live 4/5 train hours away and we will not see much of each other. And yes, even if I see him again, it might be the last time we work together, and work is really the connection, or it’s an area where all his good qualities come together. I‘m not the only one, my other colleague told me just today that she could simply cry every day that he will leave, no one wants him to go. It’s mainly the harmony in working that brought us together.
Actually, we have two more days, and after the last project evening I throw a little party at my house. His SO cannot come (although I don’t quite see why, but that’s another thing). But there will be a lot of people and I don’t know if I as host will have so much time to talk to him much. I already know that he will leave too early for my taste and I will be sad🤷🏻♀️but yes, it’s a kind of nice ending to the week. But a bit of stress too.
Imho, I already talked about his feelings and future recently when we met, he really is stressed out by his having to decide, and I think he wants to just enjoy this week without that stress hanging over him. I maybe won’t start talking about it again, especially because he knows that I don’t want him to leave and feels maybe bad to tell me the truth if he wants to leave.
Also now I fear that I might have stressed him out with my text too, I mean it’s actually much harder for him because he‘s the one who has to make the decision, he feels probably guilty anyway, and now I‘m adding my troubles.
But well, that’s how it is, i still feel a tiny bit better to have explained myself instead of being awkward again tomorrow and him not knowing why.
Hi Mila, thanks for the extra context. heightened couple of days for sure. From what you say others also feeling the special limited time with him being there and then potentially no longer. And you are hosting a party too! I would be stressed out of my mind with dealing with all of that! So maybe pat yourself on the back / head for these gestures, I’m sure many others appreciate your generosity and welcome from you, and not just LO.
He is probably feeling it too.
It is as is, as you say and it will play out as it will. Be strong, be you Mila ! Best wishes
Hi Mila. Yes, it does sound like a tough week for you. Wish you the mental strength to go over this, and hope that you feel better. Remember that you will feel better. Hopefully, once LO leaves, your feelings would stabilize eventually over time.
Hi ABCD,
So good to hear from you!
How are you? Still everything under control?
My LO hasn’t replied- cannot believe he let me sit on such a vulnerable message the whole night.
Might be he was a bit overwhelmed and didn’t know how to reply, but couldn’t one write simply that? „Sorry, it’s too much for me to handle since I’m also overwhelmed, don’t know how to reply“ or „let’s talk tomorrow“?
Maybe he‘s angry at me for aggravating his already overwhelming situation? But I acted weird and wanted to explain, I apologized and stuff, there was nothing accusatory in it. He‘s just so unable to deal with emotions.
So, yes ABCD, now I‘m really in the mood for him leaving for good so that my feelings can stabilize.
Now he replied, half an hour before work. I‘m reluctant to read it, it’s all too much for my nerves.
Although I know there won’t be any surprises, he will have replied exactly like I described it yesterday- telling me he noticed me being a bit weird, but he‘s also a bit shaken, and that‘s it (it’s enough, of course, but there won’t be one hair of compassion more than absolute minimum). Wanna bet?
Dear Mila,
He’s doing you a favour, girl, showing what a bad fit he is for you in some ways. I am so glad you recognise it. This unread text proves it (though you’ve had this proof over and over again before…). You want something that he doesn’t have to give you. But you recognise that you may only want it because of the circumstances (limited time left) – so that’s okay.
He has all the attributes necessary to be a good work friend and you are grieving the fact that this is possibly (probably) coming to an end. It is natural to feel sad about that, even if limerence were not in the equation, confusing matters. As you are still a bit limerent (?) , your reactions are ‘enhanced’, but from your ruminations it is evident that you are thinking so clearly and have made so much progress that you are able to see it all play out. Knowing that and feeling that are two separate matters, of course. But if (when) he moved away, it will get a bit easier, especially if you can get the texts under control.
Have a nice day, if you can.
Bx
PS I should say that I had the opposite experience, professionally, with my LO in recent times. He has been driving me mad. Unlike you, he does not do things as I like them to be done. Its as frustrating as hell, though I know that he had issues that make him like this. However – importantly – my LE seems to be easing because of it. I am appreciating my lovely calm, erudite, organised, helpful, sensitive, SO all the more. Key point: these ‘flaws’ are a blessing in disguise.
Hi Mila. Thanks for asking. Yes, things are going much better than before. LO contact has reduced quite a lot, so I guess that has helped. Still do think about LO every now and then, sometimes feel a bit low, but overall, the thoughts are more controlled than before. Yes, I am sure that in your case, the reduced/zero contact will definitely help you. Back in the day, when my LE was more intense, messaging was a really tricky thing to navigate. The act of thinking whether to send a message, and then waiting for the reply post sending, used to cause a tonne of anxiety. The responses used to make me super happy, so yeah, the highs and lows, basically.
All the best to you.
Hi Mila,
I’ve been following your ups and downs with this LE of yours, it’s really a rollercoaster 🎢. It seems things are now wrapping up quickly, and the time to say goodbye has almost approached. Goodbyes aren’t easy. To say goodbye to someone you love is heartbreaking. Hard to find the words to just say farewell… I feel so sad for you. We all have been in that place of tremendous agony. I still remember mine goodbye of 51 years ago, and it still hurts so much! But I also notice you’re a brave woman, with courage and valor; it’s incredible you’re hosting a good bye party! I’d be devastated, never mind serving hors d’oeuvres to other people who are unaware of what’s going on in your heart. May God give you the strength and grace to go through this phase of limerence without too much suffering .
When is he finally leaving ? We’ll be here to support you and encourage you with your withdrawal symptoms…
Quote for today:
“ Good friends never say goodbye. They simply say “see you soon “. (Unknown)
A big bear hug and warm wishes. Be well.
Hi Nisor,
It’s not a goodbye party, no!
He still hasn’t decided if he leaves, that’s the problem… this party isn’t for him, it’s for me 🙂
But thank you for your warm and heartfelt words!
It’s not yet time to really say goodbye, but I can’t stand this uncertainty any longer, maybe it’s time for me to say goodbye to him inside for myself.
I wanted to answer to other posts too but simply no time at the moment…
We just got back from adopting a cat from the shelter. Her name is Ash. She’s 90% black with some white splotches here and there. She was very vocal on the ride home. But as soon as we opened the carrier she vanished. I’m sure she’ll come out oh hiding soon. We don’t know how old she is though. But our youngest son almost went right to her at the shelter and wanted her.
This is the best most uplifting news I have heard all day, and a LwL post that I could understand without reading it a million times over.
Happy days, Adam, my lovely LwL friend. I hope that Ash brings you, your wife, and number two son much love and happiness for many years to come.
🐈⬛
Haha I showed Momma your post to mine and I’m like do you say his name like [damn yankee white boy frederico] And she says no you say it [tex-mex rolled R half Mexican accent not damn yankee frederico] and Im just like ….. wha you say? 🙂
Awww that’s great Adam!
A little furry friend running around the house will bring moments of joy for the whole family.
I, myself was thinking of getting a cat/kitten but I’m away from home a lot so I didn’t think it would be fair for the little one.
It sure would be a good distraction though.
Enjoy!
We had three kittens before for a couple years before our oldest son took them with him to college. And I grew up with cats. So we decided to get one for his brother of his own since he was missing the ones his older brother took with him. She seems to be warming up to her new home. She’s really took a shine to our younger son. When she finally came out of hiding yesterday she spent most of the time on the futon with our youngest boy. So I think she likes it here.
I got 2 more Cats I can send you Adam. Free of charge. Problem is they will leave you lots of surprises on your floor. When you least expect it.
If you’re anything like me, that will get old really fast, lol..
I would 100% turn it off. I hate it; I hate what it has done to me. I wish I had never experienced it and I’m still struggling with its repercussions. As a dismissive avoidant, it is everything I abhor: lack of control over my emotions; instability and volatility; emotions; confronting deep emotional traumas/problems. I feel like I thought I was getting on a merry-go-round and it turned out to be a roller coaster. On the one hand I feel deep relief upon discovering it’s limerence not love, but on the other hand, I feel such deep self-loathing for falling into its trap. I feel like such a shmuck.
This is the thing I learned from limerence more than anything ….
“Unexpressed emotions will never die. They are buried alive and will always come forth later in uglier ways.” — Sigmund Freud
As an ISFJ that has issues expressing emotions and feelings if I think that will disrupt the harmony, me not addressing those harbored emotions is what drove me to limerence. Like you (when I learned what limerence was) I felt a great self-loathing for what I allowed myself to fall into.
I’d go so far as to say that, unless I have relapse, I think my wife has forgiven me whereas I still beat myself up over it. I don’t know if I can forgive myself. It is very much not like me to give in to emotions and throw caution to the wind. But I did. And am paying for it in spades still.
Makes me wonder why God didn’t pick limerence for one of the ten plagues of Egypt.
Hi Adam,
You said, if you have a relapse. Does that mean you still have contact with your LO?
What’s that saying, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. The best we can do now – being equipped with knowledge – is continue on and watch for the warning signs and not do it again.
For me that should be simple enough since I was metaphorically (knowingly) playing with matches (unaware of the fact that I was at a limerence gas station) and it blew up. Now I learned not to play with matches.
Sadly, getting burned only taught me that I should repress more, not less. It may come to pass that it bubbles to the surface again later, but the alternative is not happening.
No I do not have contact with her anymore. I have with much remorse looked in on her social media at times, she was a former co-worker, that left the job back in 2022. What I meant by relapse was speaking in regards to intrusive thoughts. Which is, at least for me, a constant battle.
Limerence or not we all have memories of people we have met in life. People that we miss seeing or being able to talk to. So when I have something remind me of a memory of her it’s an immediate effort to not let that simple memory turn into rumination. Because then it starts creeping into my subconscious and manifests externally. In my case, speaking her name in my sleep. Something I don’t think my wife really wants to go through hearing again.
I have absolute resolve never to contact her. And I have not checked her social media in probably a 6 months or so. And that was bad drunken decision. But having all the resolve in the world still doesn’t make it easy to control where your mind goes. Even the mention of her name when it isn’t even a reference to her, can go sideways. She has a unisex name so it doesn’t even have to refer to a woman of the same name for it to be gasoline on a bonfire. In fact it just happened last night in a conversation with my wife about a fictional character with the same name. I have come to accept it might be a life long battle.
Adam,
“Unexpressed emotions will never die. They are buried alive and will always come forth later in uglier ways.” — Sigmund Freud
I agree with Freud. Just wonder to whom we need to healthily express/disclose these repressed emotions: to LO, a therapist, a confidant, or a anonymous forum like this? Would their effect be same?
I tried to open up to my wife on a very rudimentary level and let her know that I am dismissive avoidant, and what that means, but she did not want to hear about it and thought it was all silly and I felt regret ever opening up. That wasn’t even about the problems, just about the underlying schema.
Anonymous online it is (since I have no confidants, no friends)! I jest, but I’m grateful for the online community. It’s great for people like me. Therapy, on the other hand, is not for me, personally. I understand what happened and why it happened; I just need to be strong enough to ensure it doesn’t happen again.
Now, if you’re speaking generally, I think everyone needs to find the path that works for them. Then again, I’m a random person not a specialist in any way.
On an unrelated note, do you happen to know why some messages have no Reply option? Like I cannot see a Reply option to Adam’s post above yours.
Invalid Username,
After tired different modes, I know now expression of thoughts and emotions to an anonymous site/space works best for me. It’s so much better than writing journal entries, which is also important for self-reflection. With an ear out there, it’s a therapy— speaking/expressing in casual or organized, pre-meditated or spontaneous written words.
You need to roll down/up your screen until you find the button, “reply” either under your original one, or Adam’s post.
Hope you feel better.
Adam,
It’s Spooky how much of my story corresponds with what you wrote in your comment. I haven’t seen her in so long; I both long to see her and fear it in equal measure.
It’s something I have to live with. Unless another limerent object comes along to take her place. She’ll live on in my mind.
I do see some potential LO’s on the train in the morning when I go to work. But they’re all so much younger than me.
I’m so much easier on myself now. No beating myself up because I’m thinking about someone who in all probability is not thinking about me.
There is some pain involved but it’s manageable.
You are better off not allowing yourself to take on another LE. If you have a good marriage and family life, then cherish that.
I often wonder how I would have fared, had LO come around now and I was still married. If we were still having the problems that we had years ago, I don’t think we would have made it.
You are right about some pain being involved as the LE subsides. I’m just arriving now to this feeling. I don’t like it but I’m not bottoming out like I was. I will probably always miss LO to some degree though.
“I both long to see her and fear it in equal measure.”
Grego
I can get that. It’s been almost two years for me. And I say “Hey you got through this. Maybe just reach out to her to say ‘Hi'” and then you realize you are rationalizing something that would cause you nothing but pain. Because, as you said, they are probably not evening thinking of you. It’s a reality that is hard to accept.
I agree with MJ that LE’s are just painful no matter how they happen. I posited in another comment that even if I was single and available and still met LO and shot my shot and she turned me down that the aftermath of limerence would still tear me apart as much as feelings for a woman I wasn’t available to. Limerence like heroin doesn’t take much to overtake you. And it doesn’t take much more to kill you. Limerence is certainty something I could have lived my whole life without. And I am sure my family could have lived without it too.
Hi MJ and Adam,
“You are better off not allowing yourself to take on another LE. If you have a good marriage and family life, then cherish that.”
Yes, I don’t think there’ll be anymore LE’s for me. They are all consuming and exhausting, I don’t want any more. The one I have still isn’t done with me!
I do cherish my family and they mean the world to me. But still there is that thing buzzing around in my brain labelled LO. I think it’s just a bunch of chemicals in my brain or some neural synapses going off. I don’t know very much about brain chemistry but it’s something to do with that AND let’s not forget the sympathetic nervous system etc.
I’m a big adherent of the body/mind connection. Read ‘the body keeps the score’ by Bessel van der Kolk.
‘Limerence like heroin doesn’t take much to overtake you. And it doesn’t take much more to kill you.’
So well put! In my youth me and some of my friends were highly critical of people who did heroin. I was judgmental. But experience and life have taught me humility. I’m addicted to thinking, silly fantasies and scenarios with you know who!? Plus I had a battle with the booze which happily I have cut right back.
Would I have lived my life without Limerence.? It’s hard to say. I had some terrible times in my youth, that I most certainly would not want to revisit. But, it’s opened my heart out, made me feel such intense feelings. Given me some empathy I think. There are people who don’t feel anything much. They function, perhaps they’ve never had their hearts broken. But they’re afraid or dismissive of strong feelings and emotions. I think I’d rather be dead than be like that.
I am leaning towards saying yes. Or, rather, I would have said yes some time ago. However, now I find myself torn. I’ve come to appreciate limerence as a brutally honest friend, revealing my unhappiness and the need for change in my life. It took me a while to reach this realization, but limerence seems more manageable with this perspective – even helpful, in a way. When I lacked such clarity and took the fantasies associated with my LEs seriously, it was pure agony, and I would have immediately sought to switch it off. However, now that I perceive it more as a symptom urging to make necessary changes, I’m not so sure. Unhappiness would merely manifest itself through a different outlet, and this one I’ve learned to live with. Would I opt to be born and raised possessing a deeper understanding of my needs, feelings, desires, and boundaries, rendering limerence unnecessary from the outset? Absolutely! Would such a foundation have likely led to a more enriching life and more satisfying romantic relationships? Highly probable. However, given the composite of experiences and traits that make up “me”, I have grown to value limerence.
In addition to star trek clip shown ; earlier problems with Data’s emotion chip being turned off or not?
“I simply do not have ability to control these emotions” I need to be deactivated., emotion chip is fused and can’t be removed;
betrayal of a friend through fear leading to remorse”
About 25secs in?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xz3CYcjdSaI
First emotional response is negative but ‘enjoyable’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifGzycUSFSM
The whole film is interesting Picard has just lost his brother and nephew in a fire.
Soren is ‘limerent’ to return to a ‘fantasy?’ world and will do anything to get there including mass murder.