When I first started blogging about limerence, I was careful to talk about the upsides to the condition. I do think limerence adds to life, certainly when you are young and single and looking for love. It is euphoric and exhilarating and intoxicating, even if it can ultimately turn sour.
Limerence also gives you a general “life boost” – most of us end up being more active, concerned about our health and appearance, prosocial, energetic and creative when things are going well in the early stages.
A lot of the great art and culture through the ages has been fuelled by limerence too – the epic love stories and outpouring of music, poetry, sculpture and more by limerents in the thrall of a grand passion. Exalting the limerent object muse.
I’m also more upbeat than most about the possibility of forming a lasting relationship with a limerent object, mainly because I did it.
So, I’m not anti-limerence…
But.
I have no need for it anymore.
I don’t regret being limerent, despite the negative effect it had on my life when it became an unwelcome visitor in midlife, but there’s no part of my purposeful plans for the future that would be enhanced by limerence. I hope that my wife and I will continue to enjoy a happy marriage, see our children off on their own adult adventures, and then pursue the work and hobbies that bring us fulfilment and happiness. I hope to never need have to start on a new romantic adventure. I’m built for monogamy and don’t hanker for novelty.
Limerence also isn’t a useful mood regulator for someone in my position, or my stage of life. It doesn’t contribute much to my creative output (except indirectly, of course, as a source of fascination and study), and it would probably be more of a distraction than energy boost if it were to somehow butt into my life unexpectedly through some sort of series of unfortunate events.
And yet, this is all a very dry and ascetic argument. Deep down, in the earthy, emotional part of myself I know I wouldn’t want to turn the limerence off. It’s like having a tiger for a pet, or a source of power held in reserve. And of course, it was an essential component of the forces that made me who I am.
So, that’s the issue to stimulate the coffeehouse discussion today. Would you choose to turn off your limerence if you could?
Dangerous subject, Dr. Lš
Donāt know if I dare to answer that for myself. Or maybe I do- I wouldnāt turn it off. Itās a part of my personality, or has been. It gave me such poignant and wonderful moments and memories and let me experience life in beautiful colours.
I just wish I could have handled it better.
And maybe at the end of my life, in retrospect, I will shake my head over the waste of time and see that I lied to myself about the wonderfulness of it? I really donāt know.
āWould you chose to turn off your limerence if you could?
Doctor L.
A definitely YES, for me! If I had the means, I would rather turn it off! It has not contributed much to my life, on the contrary , it brought much unnecessary pain and suffering I didnāt need. It was a a distraction from my quiet sweet life which confused and worried me much, a waste of my precious energy and time.
But as you say, DR.L, itās a āsource of fascination and studyā for you, as for me, Iām fascinated by this āmonsterā also, and would like for the people out there to know about it , beware, and learn how to take coverā¦
A great weekend to all beautiful souls of LwL.
Nisor,
“A definitely YES, for me! If I had the means, I would rather turn it off! It has not contributed much to my life, on the contrary , it brought much unnecessary pain and suffering I didnāt need. It was a a distraction from my quiet sweet life which confused and worried me much, a waste of my precious energy and time.”
I feel the same way. I suppose it would be different if I’d ended up a in a good, long-term relationship with one of my LOs. But I didn’t, and they were all bad prospects for that. I am not lucky enough to become limerent for good LOs. In fact, I think their very unsuitability is part of the reason why I became limerent.
And if a limerent is partnered up in what they assume to be a lifelong relationship, there’s no reason for limerence at all anymore.
Marcia,
āI am not lucky enough to become limerent for good LOs. In fact, I think their very unsuitability is part of the reason why I became limerent.ā
Are you suggesting that you were not limerent before you met LOs, particularly unsuitable ones?
I thought limerent, is born with a person and fall in limerence later by various reasons or no reasonsā¦
Snowphoenix,
“Are you suggesting that you were not limerent before you met LOs, particularly unsuitable ones?”
I think my having limerent tendencies is due to both my childhood and my personality. Exactly when the “limernet chip” arrived in ny psyche… I don’t know. It’s impossible to say, as there’s no way to test for it until you meet an LO.
@Marcie,
Iām convinced (also analyzed by my therapists) that my cptsd came from early childhood, possibly birth. So I canāt be sure whether I was born a limerent or conditioned to be one by all traumatic experiences I had.
For me, itās either Iām in limerence or not, although I had a short-lasted ones that caused shorter no-eat, no-sleep, nonstop rumination that my OCD might have also contributed.
Snowphoenix,
Iām convinced (also analyzed by my therapists) that my cptsd came from early childhood, possibly birth. So I canāt be sure whether I was born a limerent or conditioned to be one by all traumatic experiences I had.”
I don’t understand how you can have it since birth. Wouldn’t you need to have the traumatic expereinces first to then get cpstd?
Marcia,
“I donāt understand how you can have it since birth. Wouldnāt you need to have the traumatic expereinces first to then get cpstd?”
I’m with Snow on this one. I know you hate to follow links but these would explain why I’m with her in much less time and with more credibility.
Check out https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/ and search for “mother.”
Also, check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAAmSqv2GV8. The title is Attachment Theory and Loss” by John Bowlby. Pay attention at ~50 second mark. The pain in his eyes is obvious.
Also, check out Heinz Kohut’s “Reflections on Empathy.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ6Y3hoKI8U
It gets really good at the ~2 minutes and backs Snow at ~2:50.
I couldn’t find a quote of the text but Snow and her therapist have a lot backing them up.
LE,
Can you give it to me in a nutshell? š
Here’s my theory on it … my basic personality was set at birth. I’m an INFP and there is some evidence that certain personality types are more likely to be limerent, the INFP being one of them. (There’s a post on this site about that as I’m sure you know.) So was I l already a limerent at birth? I don’t know.
However, my upbringing shaped my personality. I was raised by a neglectful father. So he shaped my attachment style.
I think my childhood not only affected the types of LO I was drawn to but also the way I dealt with limerence and (I think) the intensity of the limerence. Instead of seeing that the LOs were either unavailable or not interested in giving me the kind of relationship that I needed and then walking, I hung on. Withouth the childhood crap, I would have been able to walk a lot sooner and I don’t think I would have been as besotted with the LOs. I know it’s hard to believe, but some people are actually turned off by flaky people who are hard to read. š
It’s also possible without the childhood crap, I wouldn’t have been a limerent at all. However, I can’t really know that.
Marcia,
I went to a daycare (8 hours a day) starting 50 days old, with more than 20 others babies with 2 teachers. Just lack of physical contact as an infant with a caregiver, could produce cptsd without acute traumatic incident, based on my therapists.
My first remembered, and several following traumatic experiences took place between 4-6 yrs at weekcare (6 days a week) and at home with Mother, who did not want me to be at home everyday. I physically escaped 3 times around age 5, Mother wanted to send me back immediately, but Father kept me at home at least for that day.
Snowphoenix,
I went to a daycare (8 hours a day) starting 50 days old, with more than 20 others babies with 2 teachers. Just lack of physical contact as an infant with a caregiver, could produce cptsd without acute traumatic incident, based on my therapists.
I definitely think you can experience trauma very early in life. I just don’t think you’re born with it. I don’t believe someone is pushed out of the womb, already having cptsd. It happens after abuse or neglect.
Marcia,
Another more recent clip that explains the connection between childhood trauma and addictions. Since I never took or even tried any form of chemical substance, limerence would be my ONLY drug (to escape cptsd pains), which the society has not recognized yet. Thatās what I hope DrLās book can demonstrate and convince the rest of the world.
https://youtu.be/BVg2bfqblGI?si=zMcyacp_Gk1akaeu
Iām with you that itās hard to believe that one is born as limerent. But if a mother also has limerence or was a limerent herself, I wonder if her neural wiring/genes could pass down to her children? (Mother had several LEs during her marriage with the saintly Father, who always forgave her and resisted other womenās luring ā I witnessed on both sidesā¦).
I think some of us here consider themselves to have had a pretty good childhood w/o cptsd, such as DrL, MJ an Problem Child, (correct me if I remember wrong), but theyāre still struck by limerence, which is puzzling.
Marcia,
Based on my therapists and some books, there are generational and culture cptsd, that collectively pass down, especially to sensitive children or HSPs.
Marcia,
Sweets, food, alcohol, car, house, shopping, porns, feeling-good romance novels, acquaintanceshipā¦ rarely interested me and never brought me much relief from my unnamed cptsd pains, not even 1% as limerence did.ā¦
But limerence with its manic energy level, euphoria, and reverie, etc. sent me to the moon. As you know, I was essentially limerent for the Phantom of LO, which is essentially a part of myself, so it lasted so long and is so hard to come out of it.
If not for my physical healthās sake, I would not have landed in LwL. Now, I understand so much better about not only my LE, but also my cptsd and other aspects in my life. Nowadays I could not help name my thoughts and emotions, āit is limerent speakingā¦ it is logicalā¦ itās wishfulā¦ itās pessimisticā¦ itās healthy imaginationā¦ itās narcissistic showoffā¦ itās cptsd painā¦ itās sympathyā¦ itās depressionā¦itās being attracted, inspired and exhilaratedā¦.! ā
As long as I could name them without moral judgment, I would feel a great deal of settlement/peace within.
Snowphoenix,
“Since I never took or even tried any form of chemical substance, limerence would be my ONLY drug (to escape cptsd pains), which the society has not recognized yet. Thatās what I hope DrLās book can demonstrate and convince the rest of the world.”
I’m similar, although I have tried some street drugs. Tbh, I would still do them on occassion if I had access to them. I don’t care for alcohol. I don’t like the taste. And I did like the effect Oxycodone had on me when I took it for a medical procedure years ago. I could see why people become addicted to that.
“Iām with you that itās hard to believe that one is born as limerent. ”
I’m not saying it’s not possible. I just don’t know.
“But if a mother also has limerence or was a limerent herself, I wonder if her neural wiring/genes could pass down to her children? ”
Possibly. Although, personally, I doubt anyone in my family is a limerent.
“I think some of us here consider themselves to have had a pretty good childhood w/o cptsd, such as DrL, MJ an Problem Child, (correct me if I remember wrong), but theyāre still struck by limerence, which is puzzling.”
Yes, that’s true. There are posters on here who had happy childhoods. I actually had a happy childhoold until I got stuck full time with my father at age 10. If things had been different, I think I would have been a much different person.
“Based on my therapists and some books, there are generational and culture cptsd, that collectively pass down, especially to sensitive children or HSPs.”
But what if you had been adopted as a newborn?
If, during pregnancy, the mother experiences, for example, severe nutritional deficiences or is severely addicted to drugs, I’m assuming that’s passed on to the child in the womb.
If, during pregnancy, the mother experiences severe abuse or is in a lot of trauma herself, is that passed onto the child in the womb? I don’t know. It’s entirely possible. Or the child is in some way affected by it.
“Sweets …”
Ah, sweets. Yes, they are my drug of choice when not limerent. š
Marcia,
Some of your questions could be answered by the Mateās video clips I attached in my previous post. Itās made in a cartoon form, very easy to follow.
Snowphoenix,
“Some of your questions could be answered by the Mateās video clips I attached in my previous post. Itās made in a cartoon form, very easy to follow.”
I never look at clips. š
I am going to sayā¦..do we/Science understand enough about this subject to say..āletās turn it off, it is for the bestā? One thing Limerence has done for me is to wake and shake me up. No longer a passenger. Not shutting down or avoiding pain like the plague. Thinking pain is to be avoided. Experiencing pain in Life is how we grow as human beings. It hurts and continues to hurt but it is very much about making active choices and actively reviewing Life. Profound review and redefinition. It isnāt about LO or the LE, it is about me. I canāt look at outside sources for what I believe I need, it has to come from me. Be it validation, being seen, discovering that I am alive, have a Life to live, and not crushing along being dead, and so forth. Both the understanding and choosing the action(s), has to come from me. And understanding how active choices have the power to hurt and change other peopleās lives. Take responsibility. And also know that we canāt control others, and we most certainly canāt predict what will happen in the future.
CamillaGeorge,
āExperiencing pain in Life is how we grow as human beings. It hurts and continues to hurt but it is very much about making active choices and actively reviewing Life. Profound review and redefinition. It isnāt about LO or the LE, it is about me. I canāt look at outside sources for what I believe I need, it has to come from me. Be it validation, being seen, discovering that I am alive, have a Life to live, and not crushing along being dead, and so forth. Both the understanding and choosing the action(s), has to come from me. ā
I totally second you here!
Iām not a masochist looking for pains to suffer, they exist in life in EVERT aspect of human life. They are true teachers in oneās winding life journey, urging and pushing one to mature and evolve in beneficial ways
In life, pains are inevitable, but suffering is optional.
I will say āNoā, then. Even 1.5 years of thisā¦.I had gotten complacent and lazy. Even with being broken into a million little pieces on the inside. Yes, so many other things happened as well, and are likely to continue to happen. I think Dr L, that you have many posts that lead towards what I am trying to say here.
My honest answer is, well, I don’t know. Maybe? You see, I may be seeing the world the way I want to, but I think that LO probably likes me too. Hence, my answer.
I know I SHOULD turn it off but I donāt think I would. It is problematic and I donāt know if it is reciprocated (which is, of course, part of the problem) but because I donāt know if itās reciprocated, the stakes are way too high to act on it. It makes me feel alive, even though LO probably thinks Iām a bit odd!
“The hardest person to break up with , is the one we imagine”
Agree with you here ā itās like breaking up with oneselfā¦.
Hi Snow
Hope you’re well . Yes I suppose limerents should heed the warning of the tale of Narcissus , who fell in love with his own reflection . “Narcissus dies by a pool gazing at his own reflection that he falls in love with. He has no concern about anything around him nor does he eat or sleep. He takes his last dying breath by himself and dies by the image that he will never have but so badly desires” . Maybe the L.O can be compared to Narcissus’s reflection , “the image that he will never have but so badly desires”
Jim,
Itās very possible.
Some limerents, like myself, sometimes feel we deserve LOās loving attention or reciprocation, just because we have intense feelings for them; thatās truly narcissistic! On other times, when LO is enigmatic or largely unknown, we (sub)consciously, wishfully imagine or fabricate an idealized phantom of LO in our head and fall/stay in limerence with that phantom ā just a part of limerentās Self.
Hope peace with you.
Wow ! I’m not sure actually.
I think in hindsight I was limerent for SO, glimmer at first sight.
Then again decades later when less welcome or appropriate. Therefore, difficult to say as it brings so many sparkly benefits and recently has been a life wake-up call. The wasted time and obsessional ruminations is the real killer that makes me sway to ‘yes turn it off’ but then would I be a different shallower emotionless person!?
Maybe I will give a definitive answer in a few months time when I hope to be through with the LE and more hindsight.
Love the Star Trek clip, that would be a neat trick to switch emotions on and off as needed.
I would not turn it off.
For me, Limerence (aka falling in-love) is by far the best, most joyful and pleasurable experience life has to offer. I guess I am fortunate in that I have had multiple long-term reciprocal falling in-love relationships over my lifetime, one of which is my marriage. Even my current LE… despite nothing ever happening and it being a cause for sadness now, it woke me up from a state of post-childbearing stagnancy, made me feel like an attractive woman again, gave me a measure of joy and motivated me to make my life more interesting and fulfilling.
The only reason my limerence has became dysfunctional this time around is becuase I am not free to act on it. Hence if I were to change anything, it would be be cultural scripts around lifelong relationships and monogamy, not my propensity for limerence.
I’m with you. Not only has limerence provided my life with lots of color over the years, along with the pain, but the “cultural scripts” were not my choice. They were imposed from above…my religion saying this was the only acceptable way to have sex and relationships.
If given an ounce of opportunity to challenge or change the scripts I would. My best friend is āmergingā her family (adult son and husband) with her LO this summer and Iām taking meticulous notesā¦ Iāve long devised several ideas how I could keep LO in my life beyond our employment tenures, which might begin to expire in a year and a half. Iāve come to accept that despite a pleasant and comfortable marriage Iām reluctantly open-minded and open to anything. The only question remaining: Is my LO?
SJ,
“My best friend is āmergingā her family (adult son and husband) with her LO this summer and Iām taking meticulous notesā¦”
What do you mean by “merging”?
Does the husband know the LO is his wife’s LO?
In terms of the adult son, I don’t think I’d want to be a witness to my parents’ extra romantic situations, depending on what you mean by merging. I’d hope they were having a good time with that part of their lives, but I wouldn’t want the details.
My friendās husband is falling apart: After being marginally employed for their first 12 years of marriage he āretired ā and has been a dependent for nearly 10 years. He doesnāt take care of himself and has been mistaken several times for being her father despite being two years younger than her (partly because of genetics too though). He has several chemical dependencies (recreational drugs and alcohol) he refuses to give up and from first hand knowledge I can tell you heās a nasty drunk! He has cognitive impairment that is slowly progressing. He is getting to the point where nobody (not even at church) wants to be around him. I visit him once a week out of pity to my friend. Itās an act of compassion and charity. She doesnāt have extra funds to pay for caregivers respite support. She would divorce him (and has been advised to by everyone except me and the priest) but she feels a moral obligation to see this to its intended and natural conclusion: death. I donāt think she has to suffer unnecessarily thoughā¦ she fell in love and I think she deserves to stay in it! Her husband knows there are feelings there and has made a few subtle comments about their compatibility but he loves this man too (heās been even more of a caregiver to him than I have) and is eager to move in with him probably just as much as my friend. My friend is tactful and the son is passive. He is also well aware of his step fatherās precarious and progressive situation and is thinking ahead.
SJ,
That sounds like a difficult situation.
I don’t mean to sound morbid, but couldn’t this situation go on for many more years? Maybe decades? I don’t know how old your friend’s husband is.
So your freind’s LO is moving in … as a boyfriend? If they’re together, it’s not really an LO anymore ?
I would not turn it off!
Iām always awed and inspired by great art and culture āfuelled by limerence too ā the epic love stories and outpouring of music, poetry, sculpture and more by limerents in the thrall of a grand passionā. That passionate urge (dopamine or not) to create, to enliven oneās life, can be more powerful than anything even that biological pair-bonding.
None-reciprocation is not an issue, the biggest challenge is to sustain limerenceās positive, creative, fueling effects within in oneās mandatory living, or to turn an unrequited limerence to an unrequited love in distance ātruly not to expect impossible but live with it in peace.
Needless to say, I speak from a singletonās perspective. And Iām not afraid of being single for the rest of my life; not everyone has a good luck in romance department ā Cāest la Vie!
In past three years, I have also faced another realistic āchallengeā:
When you face a ādefinitiveā death, physical or metaphorical, would you turn your limerence off?
With 3 frightening lab results coming out last evening as: benign, benign, benign šš» š Iāll have to face more of a metaphorical death coming on a specific day in 3 months, which I knew since the end of Augustā¦
We mostly lead a life as if it could go on indefinitely, but if a date of its termination is set for you, then watch our psychologyā¦. Perhaps I need to practice rituals of Tibetanās living and dyingā¦. Only creating something new could counter-balancing such depressing practicesā¦
Snowphoenix,
You are being enigmatic, I donāt understand whatās going on, but wish you all the best, hope that this date thatās coming up goes as well as the benign lab results!
Mila,
I know Iāve been āenigmaticā or not-transparent about my LE treacherous situation, but itās painful to even think about it, let alone to talk about it; for me, sharing details of LE somehow strengthen it, so I distract my mind with thinking/debating or creating something new, āexpeculatingā(truly love Nisorās word!) unknowns far beyond my immediate stinging reality, which could and did transcendent my painsā¦
Maybe Iām just in a denial, while I had to deal with the anxiety that came with health concerns. Now, Iām trying to relax a bit but need to face the other metaphysical ādeathā ringing a bell everydayā¦.
Thank you for your care, Iāll tell shortly.
Snow,
whatever is coming up with your LE, your lab results being benign are much more important, let me tell you this!
Please relax and celebrate a bit!
Everything else will come along.
Delighted to hear that you got welcome medical results, Snowpheonix!
That is so great!!
Good luck with everything else, your philosophy, stoicism, subconscious are helping a great deal, it seems. I hope you achieve everything you hope to achieve.
@Bewitched,
Thank you for your care and good wishes for me! It indeed feels good to have a sounding health ā physical and mental (Iām quite psychosomatic, so they both affect each other a lot).
I babbled a lot of theoretical stuff, as a means to encourage myself to daily āpractice/think aboutā my believed philosophies ā they do help after a while. Itās only our own mentality that could āsaveā ourselves from all sorts of stresses and limerence painsā¦.
Iām glad if you could found any of my ramblings a tiny bit helpful and thank you for your encouragement. š«
Nisor, Sammyā¦ + Coffeehouse,
There has been this dilemma in my āongoingā limerence, which has caused this back-n-forth shifting in my mind, all due to a coming metaphorical ādeathā:
Last May I started my 6th NC with LO in person, in June NC in writing, in July I stumbled into LwL and conjured up my effective cocktail meditation, in August I felt quite āsettled/calmā in body and mind, and thought I had found clues in managing my newly understood LE, while still hoping to remain a friend with LO, since no PA, EA, or disclosure (for a possible pair-bonding romance) ever occurred.
At the end of August, the horrible news of our institute in huge debt arrived. My program, along with other 20, faced a possibility to be cut, which meant many layoffs in teaching sectors. As another programās head, LO knew the news back in June but did not disclose it to me (not sure why). The first wave of layoff arrived before September, I was among 25, but needed to finish up due courses for Minor study until this May.
I almost went into panic attacks for 10 days in a roll (not financial worries), because of the coming āabandonmentā by the place felt like a home (having some very caring colleague/friends). Moreover, I realized that my limerence was NOT over, because I could not bear the thought that one day in 9 months that I could no longer physically see LO.
When I returned to work, LO did not show any kind of stress or said he was sorry for the situation. So I knew that he never cared for me or my feelings even as a colleague/friend. Still, I decided not to react to his attitude but to spend the remaining 9 months as best as I could, as a semi-Stoic and semi-Buddhist, as if they were my ālast daysā on earth. However, inside me haunting sadness seized me day and night, anxiety level raised, meditation focus reducedā¦. I could not imagine how to deal with the arrival of the ādoomsdayā.
When LO and I met for tea and cake in early Oct, I told him that I had a good summer ā discovered some answers and an online rehab for my previous mental stress and my mediations was working well. I thought of disclosure to answer one of his earlier questions back in April when I tried in person to sever my limerence tie with him (not even know the terminology back then), but LO forgot his own curiosity or no longer interested, so I gave up that idea on the spot.
The 2nd wave of layoff arrived in Oct with 34 more faculty members to go. (last hired first go, including a few tenured) and one of my good colleague-friends had to leave with a deep resentment. LO made a cynical remark, āwhat else is she going to do (besides taking a contracted teaching job in another smaller college)ā. I could not believe my ears ā a seemingly very considerate, cordial scholar could say such a thing! (Later during the winter breakI had that nightmare, in which I fell backward to a freezing gushing water in front of our campus gate, only trying to say last goodbye to my colleague/friend, while ignoring LO.) Then, as I casually mentioned here, my interaction with LO became colder and more distanced, I thought it was a good thing ā by the time I have to leave, my limerence would be gone and Iād have nothing to miss in this saddening place.
Towards the end of the Fall semester, I felt a lot better getting used to and living with the fatal news. In the last couple of weeks, I chose to avoid seeing LO, who was always sensitive of my regular greetings. Then during the break, after 50 days of NC in writing, LO emailed me with a Christmas greeting (never did before, as a non-religious scholar/expert in Religious Studies). I had to respond, as I said, a rudeness canāt be allowed to manifest through me (of course, I had to punch LO #6ās cheek with my drunk fist); plus we did not argue or fight for anything before the break, only I did not say goodbye in person.
Then, the first day of this semester (1/16) arrived with a further shocking news ā 16 more senior, tenured faculty members, including my Chair, LO, and 14 other āimportantā ones were cut off without a word of warning in advance! Thatās when I could not help release a big sigh, āAaahhha, itās Karma!ā No one foresaw its coming, except I had several highly anxious dreams before the New Year, feeling ominousā¦.
However, in a couple of hours, my sympathy took over me because I could not picture myself in LOās shoes (taught much longer there)! Like many others, I expressed my sympathy and empathy to him in person, and all my previous LE resentments were gone with wind almost over night ā a Karma or that Universe ?? (šSammyš¤) have their own whimsā¦. LO tried to hold his composure, but heās getting sadder, wearier, angrier and now nervously looking for a new post in and out of the state ā thatās why I dreamt him in tears and tearing on 1/26 during a nap after being seized in that fog along a river and a bridge.
So now, instead of me leaving āthe homeā, we are all leaving, scattering to god knows ?? Last final would be either on May 6th or 8th ā (5/9/2017ā I had that quiet electricity-flickering Glimmer ā”ļø). Iāll have another year lingering around the campus, since one of my current students wants me to tutor her privately, but LO would be gone by that time.
So with the days counting down, my dilemma remains: should I further pull myself away from LO, so the pain would not be so bad by the time of the departure, or should I value the numbered hours trying to see more of realistic LO to become ānumbā ā an expose therapy? We were/are not friends before or after LE, so wonāt have any chance to keep in touch like Mila with her LO. Thus, it will be a metaphorical death in early May!
To look at oneās life as a whole in one big canvas, not all those practical details, how would I close this chapter of several-year limerence (occurred mostly in my head with little expectation) with least amount of regret and maximum of grace? I canāt just treat it as a big dream, can I?
After the early May, Iāll become a rootless leaf, floating or blown awayā¦.
Typo: āmeditation was workingā
āseven-year limerenceāā¦
I only thought about disclosure because an eternal departure or a metaphorical death is definitively comingā¦, similar to my lymphoma or a possibly negative result of those lab testsā¦
Should one care about any embarrassments before a ādeathā?
Typo: āa possibly positive result of those lab testsā¦ā
To new comers in LwL:
Currently I do NOT have any active lymphoma cells (they were all removed nearly 4 years ago) or other kinds, but medically I have to be categorized as ālymphoma in remissionā.
Just keep finger crossed that they would never grow backā¦.
@Snow.
I’m happy to hear your medical results came back benign. That sounds like good news for you, & one less thing to worry about.
I think you and I may have got off on the wrong foot in terms of our online exchanges. I think you always misunderstood my position on limerence, and perhaps the language barrier is to blame for that misunderstanding…
I think you assumed I’m pro-limerence because you’re pro-limerence? The truth is I’ve always been more anti-limerence than pro-limerence. Although I’m not anti-limerence out of conformity to group norms.
Maybe I misrepresented my basic personality to you, too? Or maybe the language barrier again got in the way? There is a little part of me that IS bewhiskered Mr Moses, coming down the mountain with the Ten Commandment in hand. There is a part of my personality that IS a father-figure waving a big moral stick at the wicked idol-makers. But I assure you I’m a lovable, friendly, non-judgemental Mr Moses.š
I am an INFJ after all, and INFJs take their moral convictions pretty seriously. But I think most people find the moral side of INFJs comforting rather than offensive, because INFJs rarely impose their beliefs on other people. Mainly, INFJs want other people to analyse the facts for themselves and decide on the best set of responses.
Let me try to explain my position on limerence as gently as I can. This is MY view and MY view alone, and you don’t need to agree with it. Nor do you need to disprove it or challenge it. This view is simply MY personal view, and I’m sharing it with you here as a friend.
In general, I don’t think limerence is a very good idea. More often than not, limerence doesn’t seem to lead to the outcomes people most desire. However, having said that, I would never judge someone experiencing limerence because I know (a) the obsession is involuntary, and (b) there’s no point being hard on someone whose nervous system is already under unbelievable strain from within.
When I was in the worst part of limerence, there were days when I felt like I was literally dying. So the last thing I needed was someone to lecture me on morality, or point out fifty things I’m doing wrong. I was already disappointed in myself, and sad and angry. I was already consumed by a thousand different constantly changing emotions. The last thing I needed was self-righteous speeches or even long pep talks. (Hm. I’m starting to see Marcia’s point about the value of brevity. Lovesick minds can’t stay focused for long). š
I think, for some people, limerence can lead to so much internal pain that one temporarily loses the ability to empathise with loved ones e.g. spouse, parents, friends – and, yes, even the LO. I think many limerents (in the throes of an LE) may sometimes struggle to admit to themselves that they’re not being their usual highly-empathic, conscientious, utterly delightful selves.
I think I didn’t like some of you posts because I didn’t understand your situation. First, I thought you were partnered and not single. Second, it seemed like you were bragging about your plans to try and have an affair, and weirdly wanted people to cheer you on.
If the former were true, you’d be betraying your spouse. And we’re hearing now about how shattered betrayed spouses feel. If the latter were true, the problem would be that you’ve fundamentally misunderstood the spirit of LwL, which I’m pretty sure is about striving to do the right thing, showing “grace under pressure”, etc.
When I read more of your posts, I came to see that you seem to be trying to reconcile your limerence with your Buddhist/Stoic beliefs, and aren’t simply advocating bad behaviour for the sake of bad behaviour.
I may have also been cross at you because I envied you. I envied you because you are a woman, and part of me believes – rightly or wrongly – that women experience emotions more vividly than men do, and that maybe you’re experiencing some special level of technicolour-ness reserved only for women? (Maybe women are just better at describing their apparently technicolour emotional experiences, so it just seems like women get a better deal). š
Ā
I agree with you that limerence is incredibly enlivening. That’s the part that lures people in. It’s a shame, though, that this feeling of aliveness doesn’t seem to come with no strings attached. (The strings attached might be depression or self-loathing, or a super-strong attachment to someone amazing one can never date).
“I canāt just treat it as a big dream, can I?”
This is such a profound thought, Snow. I think a lot of people look back on limerent episodes and view the entire episode (once it’s fully over) as just a beautiful dream. (These people presumably didn’t ruin their lives over obsession). Limerence has that dream-like quality because it IS taking place mainly inside one’s own head.
Snow,
wouldnāt do it. I mean disclosure. I would keep eyes on horizon and new life, there will change a lot for you, donāt get held back by old cobwebs!
I donāt think itās worth opening this special box you managed mostly to close again shortly before his departure.
You can think of your own little ritual of goodbye to this episode of your life, but donāt open any discussions with him, Iād say.
New life, new challengesšŖš»
Mila,
No way Iād disclose at this point, I was explaining what I was thinking back in October.
Itās not even about embarrassment, he does NOT deserve to know about it. As you say, itās a piece of my internal life which I need to bury.
I have been very sentimental since weekcare, so I want to KILL āunhealthyā, unnecessary sentimentality before the end. This is where Stoic and Buddhism could work, which Iāve been trying everyday since last Fall, but very, very hard.
Perhaps Iāll just treat it as a long dreamā¦ š
Sammy,
Thank you for your kind and sincere messages here.
āØāI think you and I may have got off on the wrong foot in terms of our online exchanges. I think you always misunderstood my position on limerence, and perhaps the language barrier is to blame for that misunderstandingā¦ āØI think you assumed Iām pro-limerence because youāre pro-limerence? ā
From very beginning I know youāre anti-limerence because of the pains youāve experienced. Remember, I commented that your view on LE was the way too dark, over focusing on its dark side, while you seemed to have ābrighterā LE compared to mine ā at least you and your LO spent a lot of shared time as platonic friends. I had nearly nothing in whatever way you name it.
āThe truth is Iāve always been more anti-limerence than pro-limerence. Although Iām not anti-limerence out of conformity to group norms.ā
Itās not hard to tell from your various posters to other LwL āghostsā. They are kind, firm, and full of insights of limerence, out of your own long, excruciating LE. Sometimes, you sounded a bit confirming to this āgroup norms.ā I tend to be, or at least want to sound like, a rebel to any norms. There isnāt one-size shoes that can fit all sized feet.
āØāMaybe I misrepresented my basic personality to you, too?ā
Being non-religious, I tend not to deal with biblical figures from Bible, which is a pillar of beliefs, ethics, convictions of the West, Iām very aware of it (taken a course with LO). However I agree with a view that religious or spiritual experiences are private, can be shared with follower travelers, but not to be imposed on non-religious/spritual folks. I mentioned that all my LOs and close friends are non-religious, although some are spiritual like myself.
āThere is a part of my personality that IS a father-figure waving a big moral stick at the wicked idol-makers. But I assure you Iām a lovable, friendly, non-judgemental Mr Moses.ā
Iāve āfoughtā with my own father during my entire youth to assert and validate my own identity , and proud he always said the last word and beaten down my self-confidence and self-esteem ā how did I get my cptsd?? So later in life if anyone treated me like a āchildā with authoritative tones, Iād wave a sword back just for the sake of challenging, regardless who was right or wrong. Another thing I mentioned was that all my LOs have strong femininity, making them much less traditional, macho-like father figures.
āØāI am an INFJ after all, and INFJs take their moral convictions pretty seriously. But I think most people find the moral side of INFJs comforting rather than offensive, because INFJs rarely impose their beliefs on other people. ā
Havenāt you figured out that I am NOT one of āmost peopleā? I talked once that Iām not really into MBTI personality stuff, because I firmly believe that people are a working progress, able to grow and evolve the way they truly want to be. One cannot be considered open-minded or tolerant or empathetic if one imposes, even very subtly or skillfully, their beliefs on others.
āMainly, INFJs want other people to analyse the facts for themselves and decide on the best set of responses. ā
Having so little idea about any MBTI types, not long ago I looked up INFP and found I seemed to fit the shoe, but I also knew that my strong logical side of the brain (trained by Parents) could harshly beat up its sentimental sides, to the point of damaging imagination streaks. Based on how you define INFJs here, I like the trait that allows others to figure themselves out without being judged and heavily pushed, and to find their own appropriate path to walk on. If they want to bump themselves into a wall, w/o awareness, give them a kind warning and let it be! They will learn!
Thatās why I said, I like questions ā if someone wants to advise me something, just ask neutral questions without expecting me to answer. My innate inquisitive mind would work out its ways. Asking right questions is a form of art. One of my formal therapists finally learned the trick; otherwise, theyād take my yelling ā repressed cptsd anger towards my over controling Narc Mom.
āØāIn general, I donāt think limerence is a very good idea. More often than not, limerence doesnāt seem to lead to the outcomes people most desire. ā
Based on some other posters I read here, I have to agree with this view ā remember I only learned about it back in July. By a comparison, my LE pains and anxieties were the way less severe, since I had little expectations from a surrogate-parents LO. Myself alone was actively making my dreams through a series of long and short unrequited monologues, so to have an ideal makeup parenting experience (appropriately needed right after Fatherās sudden death). And I got a lot of comforting I needed from my fantasies.
āHowever, having said that, I would never judge someone experiencing limerence because I know (a) the obsession is involuntary, and (b) thereās no point being hard on someone whose nervous system is already under unbelievable strain from within. ā
I could see it. But you sometimes seemed to forget that some of what I went through, e.g. highly sensitive and easily got offended/angry, was not due to limerence, but my complex PTSD (against Mom and other authoritative figures in my childhood and youth), which has a much larger scope than limerence alone. The latter is a result of the former ā cptsd is a parent, limerence one of its kids, along with OCD, abandonment melange, lack of self-esteem/confidence, self-loath, prone to anxiety or panic attacks, other types of addictionsā¦. etc.
āThe last thing I needed was self-righteous speeches or even long pep talks. (Hm. Iām starting to see Marciaās point about the value of brevity. Lovesick minds canāt stay focused for long). ā
Even no longer in the throes of limerence, I donāt think limerents, particularly proud and stubborn ones like me, would appreciate, if not offended, othersā morality preaching, or āself-righteous speeches or even long pep talksā. I mentioned what I grew up āallergicā to fixated ideologies very traditional moralities/convictions. All societies are evolving, people should be allowed to believe and act based on whatever beliefs they hold, as long as they do not PURPOSEFULLY (accidental or incidental is unavoidable) hurt or harm others and violate laws. Even one decade ago, gay people like you, were not tolerated or even severely attacked in the West (still not in the East).
āI think, for some people, limerence can lead to so much internal pain that one temporarily loses the ability to empathise with loved ones e.g. spouse, parents, friends ā and, yes, even the LO.ā
Definitely true with my LOs. When I was mad with them, I wished some Karmas to befall on them, Iād be a hypocrite if I deny this! The current one caused the least amount of damage on me compared with some previous ones. I did not curse, and I got the same misfortune six months ahead of him.
āI think many limerents (in the throes of an LE) may sometimes struggle to admit to themselves that theyāre not being their usual highly-empathic, conscientious, utterly delightful selves. ā
I think this is very true to many cptsd sufferers, not just limerents. Since getting my cptsd very young, I donāt know whatās my innate nature was like. I was told that sometimes I was very chatty at day/weekcare, fearless, head-strong like granny, but always sympathized (not very empathic due to self-centeredness). And later I discovered my easygoing, giddy and forgiving parts through mediations, but those parts came and went, depending on my physical health and moods.
āFirst, I thought you were partnered and not single. Second, it seemed like you were bragging about your plans to try and have an affair, and weirdly wanted people to cheer you on.ā
š logistically, how could a paired up person could post here at all āodd hoursā in weekends, even sleepless nights through? For the second part, I already discussed with Marcia why when PA chances were present or subtly offered, I had to turn them down. EA for a surrogate parent (subconsciously a lover) was all I wanted in all my LOs (of course without my clear awareness). When I could not get it (in marriage with LO#4), I had to walk away from a āsuccessfulā LE. Instinctual pair-bonding desire have unconsciously chosen glimmer, but not the subconscious, psychological aim of my LEs.
I also mentioned that Iāve take an oath to myself since LE #2, and still have not broken it. Itās not due to some commonly shared morality; by experience, I just KNOW that any taken LO could NOT provide what limerents truly desire ā exclusive emotional and mental reciprocation, PA is a side dish, unsubstantial without EA first. Without EA, PA gets boring quickly, the entire human history has proven this!
āWhen I read more of your posts, I came to see that you seem to be trying to reconcile your limerence with your Buddhist/Stoic beliefs, and arenāt simply
advocating bad behaviour for the sake of bad behaviour. ā
I try not to label ābadā and āgoodā on anything (my definitions may differ from yours), and to understand why and why those behaviors are conducted, and whether theyāre truly beneficial even to doers. Meanwhile I tend to strive for a beauty in matters my hand get on. If a lot of ugliness (e.g. lies), wishful expectations (of othersā thoughts and emotions), and unnecessary sufferings involved, then no beauty can be achieved in that matter.
Religion and philosophy still matter in guiding oneās thinking and consequential feelings and conducts. I have wished a true friendship with LO, but now recognize itās impossible if LE does not die completely first. But there is no opportunity left to even try a genuine friendship due to the coming ādeathā. āØ
āI may have also been cross at you because I envied you. I envied you because you are a womanā
Thank you for your impersonal compliment here! š So you envied all women in LwL?
āthat maybe youāre experiencing some special level of technicolour-ness reserved only for women? (Maybe women are just better at describing their apparently technicolour emotional experiences, so it just seems like women get a better deal). ā
I cannot speak for other women except myself. I seem to be able to imagine things far brighter and more beautiful than their realistic faces, while logically I knew well my perceptions were false, were fantasies. Still I let my imaginations or reveries take my mind anywhere they wished to go for an available time, and then come back to earth to deal with largely disappointing reality. I could compartmentalize my mind even during the throes of LE (but not necessarily cptsd with its deeper wounds). Such an ability, I believe, is due to my dreadful weekcare experiences, in which I needed to imagine something very beautiful and bright to survive that gloomy single, plain room, going for lonely days and nights without end, except a hope. āØĀ āØāI agree with you that limerence is incredibly enlivening. Thatās the part that lures people in. ā
With so little expectation, I could have stayed in there longer if jealousy did not suddenly struck. Thatās when I realized that there were another subconscious desires hidden in my longing and dreaming.
āItās a shame, though, that this feeling of aliveness doesnāt seem to come with no strings attached. (The strings attached might be depression or self-loathing, or a super-strong attachment to someone amazing one can never date). ā
True, true, true! Iāve reduced my depression and gained back some confidence or aliveness by waving a Joan of Arc sword in front of youā¦ š¤ŗ. If you intend to help me, youāll have to indulge my combative masculinity.
No one is super amazing if one gets really closer to them, thatās why an āexpose therapyā could work. LO acted/behaved insecure, vain, deceitful, weak-willed, people-pleasing, manipulativeā¦ He did not function or verbally respond me as an idealized parents figure that I fantasized; I conducted, directed, and acted (for both sides) the whole fantasy shows in my head, to soothe the grief of my big loss. I have often wondered why Iād want to be his friend, just for a sake of respecting my long-lasting limerence, triggered off by his mere existance??
āØāI canāt just treat it as a big dream, can I?āāØāThis is such a profound thought, Snow. I think a lot of people look back on limerent episodes and view the entire episode (once itās fully over) as just a beautiful dream. (These people presumably didnāt ruin their lives over obsession). Limerence has that dream-like quality because it IS taking place mainly inside oneās own head.ā
Yes, my limerence did not damage my live substantially (one really canāt blame lymphoma on anyone else or self, but some extraordinary stress triggers), but it has last made me to understand my entire past, reshaped my mentality by pushing me onto an extremely challenging self-exploring and self-growth path. Iām quite proud of my mental and spiritual progress.
In this light, I do NOT want to treat my LE as a dream, its positive outcomes should not be underscored. If one chooses to learn something from their LE, they WILL gain their personalized insight and wisdom, just like youāve already done, shown in your posters. So letās equally validate other side of the coin; no pros can exist without cons. Speculating both sides without judging or heavily leaning on one side is an essence of Stoicism and Buddhism ā all 7 human emotions and 6 desires are natural and valid. Judging or condemning any of them is futile and probably would bring psychological imbalances or harms to oneās wellbeing.
I feel lighter now to get the ongoing stresses out of my chest. Thank you for your support and linguistic sports, Sammash! š (Iād perpetually prefer a dragon than Mr. Moses!)
To know thy self:
https://youtu.be/7mGCI0UalCk?si=6Hw7b8CbLfxvI9lV ā
5 Questions to Ask Yourself Every Evening ā
1. What am I really worried about?
2. What am I presently sad about?
3. Who has annoyed me and how?
4. What does my body want?
5. What is still lovely?
āIf you begin to ask these questions consistently, please prepare yourself. Some of these questions can lead to a deep internal assessment and can bring up dormant emotions. This is not for the faint of heart but for those courageous enough for individuation. ā ā WovenPsychology
There is an idiom in COO for making true, strong, lasting friendship ā
āNo discord, no concordā.
I wonder what would happen if Arthurian knights meet Amazon women warriorsāš¤
@Snowphoenix.
“Iāve reduced my depression and gained back some confidence or aliveness by waving a Joan of Arc sword in front of youā¦ š¤ŗ. If you intend to help me, youāll have to indulge my combative masculinity.”
Snow, I have no interest in helping you. You’re here to help yourself – end of discussion. And if you don’t want to help yourself, that’s fine too. You can’t outsource your responsibilities onto other people.
Also, I’m not going to engage you in any form of combat. The reason for the lack of combat is I actually like you as a person and have made the unilateral decision to treat you as a friend.
I don’t joust with friends, sorry. If you don’t agree with your newfound friend status, too bad, so sad. You have been officially placed in the “friend box”. Now you’re just going to have to endure the indignity of me being nonchalantly sweet toward you… š
The bottom line, Snow, is that I’m happy to have pleasant exchanges with you occasionally, but I have no real ongoing interest in your life, which is strictly your own business and your own responsibility.
“So you envied all women in LwL?”
No, dear. Just the ones who write Godawful purple prose. (I shall be naming no names. Those guilty of writing Godawful purple prose know exactly who they are. Oh wait … I think I’m talking about myself. I read back my own comments sometimes, and think: ‘Gosh, that’s such a wise and witty and beautiful commentary. I’d love to meet the author at a garden party hosted in said author’s honour…’). ššš¤£
I actually went through high school in an extension English class that consisted of around 25 girls and 4-5 boys. I never wanted to read the boys’ work – it was always too boring. Most the girls wrote interesting short stories, however, full of flowery descriptions. I enjoyed reading the short stories the girls wrote. The girls seemed to be living more intensely in their imaginations than the boys. (Perhaps a horrible indictment of a patriarchal society? Perhaps a sign extension English classes mainly attract female introverts?) š
“Iāve āfoughtā with my own father during my entire youth to assert and validate my own identity, and proud he always said the last word and beaten down my self-confidence and self-esteem …”
Snow – seriously – your father issues are disturbing and holding you back from true emotional maturity and genuine relational stability. There is never anything mature about fighting for the sake of fighting, although I know can be fun for some personality types. (Nobody I personally know, thank goodness!) š
Sometimes you act like a little girl shouting to be heard. I find your tendency to shout distasteful in the extreme. An adult woman doesn’t shout to be heard. An adult woman speaks in a kind, clear, firm, assertive manner and ASSUMES the whole room will hear her and her views.
Furthermore, an adult woman is comfortable with people having views that differ from her own. Sincere “differences of opinion” do not make an adult woman question the legitimacy of her own views. Grown-ups can legitimately hold conflicting views on the same subject, without either party being wrong or being made to feel wrong. (In discussions of feelings, there is no right/wrong). š
I think healthy father-daughter relationships are friendly and courteous in nature rather than combative. Combativeness as a style only alienates listeners, even if the combative person is 100% in the right. If you want to communicate an important message, you have to learn to charm people, and be less defensive overall. š
Snow, the people here aren’t trying to shame you or disrespect you or patronise you. The people here also aren’t interested in babysitting you. The people here are mostly disinterested adult observers with lives & problems of their own. And if they respond to you at all, that’s a mark of favour, a sign of incredible kindness.
Do not repay kindness with ingratitude or angry rants or (deeply repulsive but also hilarious) “adult temper tantrums” because … oh my gosh … wait for it … wait for it … the crime of the century … someone dared to insert the wrong word in a poem!! š
Let’s take your comment about “thought police”, for example. Oh you poor sweet thing, didn’t anyone bother to tell you? There’s no such thing as “thought police”. “Thought police”, if they exist at all, are bogeywomen living in your own head. They are merely manifestations of your own psyche. (Or manifestations of your own guilty conscience, I dare say). š
When you angrily accuse others of being the “thought police”, you are actually behaving in an astonishingly childish way. Such accusations are utterly incomprehensible to Westerners, let me assure you. Such accusations suggest the poor soul making said accusations is suffering from some form of paranoia, and believes someone is trying to come between her and her fantasies. š²
Guess what, honey? No one can come between you and your fantasies. Wanna know why no one can steal your fantasies? No one can steal your fantasies because your fantasies are … fantasies! You can cling to your fantasies or you can update or replace or discard your fantasies. But whatever you do with your fantasies only you can decide. Other people have no jurisdiction over your fantasies.
More to the point, other people – more often than not – have zero interest in your fantasies. If someone on here talks to you, again, they’re being kind-hearted toward you. You have to stop perceiving malice where none exists. People here actually like you, Snow, and are probably hugely sympathetic to your plight. Do not lash out at people who actually like you. Do not lash out at anyone, period. š
I’m going to be really honest with you, Snow. I have no idea why I even talk to you, because I can’t really relate to your situation and am indifferent to whether or not people choose to act on their limerence. (Not my life. Not my problem). I think the reason I spend so much time talking to you is that you subconsciously remind me of my biological mother. I think my biological mother had undiagnosed borderline personality disorder – or cptsd, if you like. (To a layperson, bpd and cptsd appear to be very similar conditions).
Basically, when my mother was feeling relaxed, she was a wonderful human being to be around. She was genuinely very warm, very idealistic, and had the most amazing imagination. When my mother was feeling stressed, however, she was moody, she had outbursts of irrational anger, and she was prone to paranoid ideation.
Like many people with bpd, my mother incorrectly believed that people were mysteriously out to get her. (People in actual fact weren’t out to get my mother. People in actual fact were out to GET AWAY from my mother, because they found her over-the-top personality deeply embarrassing and her constant stream of false accusations so confusing. No one genuinely disliked my mother).
My mother also had a very troubled relationship with her own father. It seems like he either ignored her or overindulged her. Females who don’t have good relationships with their dads seem to grow up into extremely unhappy women who relentlessly strive to manipulate the opposite sex and lack emotional maturity. If they attract a man at all, they invariably attract a weak man, a doormat, a pushover.
Don’t be that woman, Snow. She isn’t you and she isn’t worthy of you. You can do better. You can be better. Don’t let your past or your present stop you from being a “class act”. š
Dear Snowpheonix,
I can’t imagine how stressful the imminent end of job (“death”) and end of all of the work colleagues, friends, and LO that you have been around for seven years (or more?) must be for you. As you said, the work community you’ve been will scatter ‘like leaves’ in a few months, and who knows where everyone will end up. The fact that there has been a whole series of redundancies over time must make the atmosphere at work so incredibly fraught. As someone who works in a similar sector to you, I know how much of everyone’s self-worth is bound up in this particular kind of work, and how people can also have workaholic tendencies in this arena (I am not sure of it is the case for you or your colleagues). Anyway, I can’t even imagine the stress. Your recent posts have laid it all out and has only just now become clear what you are facing. My sincere sympathies for what you are facing. Now I understand why you have made such a very determined effort on meditation, stoicism and buddhist philosophies and why your creativity and growth and so important to you.
About your comment:
” I spent more time here getting deeper acquainted with you ghosts, slowly feeling like in a āfamilyā ā literally a ghost family!
Iāve probably spoken more, substantially and meaningfully, in the past 7 months here, than the past 7 years with the rest of people combined in my reality. Calling it a rehab is not exaggerating. Because we are NOT professional therapists but equal limerence sufferers, it is working (in reducing and healing the pains of my past LEs, of cultural and familial traumas), at least for ME.”
Yes – I totally get this too. Many of us are carrying the weight of a heavy secret. No-one in my life, apart from you lot here, know what has been happening to me. Like you, I am trying my best to conquer it. I don’t reach out to my LO, and don’t really respond, except for work. Its hard. I go through major emotional roller-coaster ride, without him doing anything. Its all in my head (just like you have described your situation, many times). I fully understand what you say about having this ‘ghost family’ and I am so grateful for it. I am glad that it has helped you too. Please keep posting and maybe we can continue to help in some way.
Sending a hug.
Dear Bewitched,
Thank you for your sympathies and empathies!
Working in the similar sector, you absolutely know and understand where I have been standing ā losing an over 8 years of fulfilling job, the sight of LO, and my possible health (prior to the lab tests). Without my philosophies and spirituality, understanding and supportive LwL ghosts, I would not know how to pass each day since the September, and may slip into further depression (I am very good in resisting other types of addictions).
Yes, my working place has been like a āsinking Titanicā since last August, particularly in humanity departments (got cut most). Due to the pool financial and human management from the very top, faculty members were full of disbelief, anger, and sadness; some already found a new job and left before the holiday, the most will leave in May. The hallways feel like a ghost town, everyone is āhidingā in their officeā¦. Itās so sad and depressive. My sense of belonging to a āhomeā was already damaged and will be shattered completely soon.
Iām glad that we share the same sentimentality about LwL, where one could, if bravely choosing, share oneās internal, private self without worrying to expose our realistic skins. In reality, we dominantly see and deal with peopleās external shields and skins which inhabit true colors of their minds and spirits, vice vista. Here, we could reveal our deeply repressed, authentic thoughts and emotions, which is so fundamentally healthy to our psychological wellbeing.
Of course, each of us has to walk our own walks( hopefully without leaning on a cane too much), but itās so delightful, encouraging, and powerful to find like-minded camaraderies to tread together on the same path!
Cheers! š«
Hi Snow,
I donāt know if you wrote it somewhere, do you have another job lined up after May, besides tutoring this one person for another year?
I wish you all the best and all your strength for the coming months!
Mila,
Nothing definite yet, a couple of perspectives with interviews coming. There is not much openings in my field across the entire country.
I had to miss some opportunities outside the city, since I canāt drive, so limited in the metropolitan area.
What I most fear is reduction of mental engagement and challenges in the Fall. My mind canāt stay idol.
Snowphoenix,
I wish you good luck for your interviews! Maybe it will be a stepping stone for a new and better life, who knows. I keep my fingers crossed that youāll find something suitable soon!
Sweet Mila,
Thank you for your sincere wishes!
Yes, Iāve been talking about facing unknowns and uncertainties over the past 6 months, and know this treacherous š² Dragon/Phoenix šYear will surely be a āstepping stoneā, bringing an astronomical change to my small š¦ lifeā¦ šæ š
@Bewitched,
āMany of us are carrying the weight of a heavy secret. No-one in my life, apart from you lot here, know what has been happening to me. Like you, I am trying my best to conquer it. I donāt reach out to my LO, and donāt really respond, except for work. Its hard. I go through major emotional roller-coaster ride, without him doing anything. Itās all in my head (just like you have described your situation, many times).ā
May I ask (canāt remember clearly): is there SO(s) in your LE situation? Regardless, I know so well how hard it is to put up an appropriate professional or indifferent face outside while in limerence inside at workā¦ And the lack of knowledge of realistic LO is one of major factors that keeps our imagination going round and roundā¦
I had the worst pokerās face at the early stage of LE, which made me highly nervous even just greeting LO (blushing like a teen) in front of other colleagues, who gossiped later, but I pretended not to see or hear. Anyway, gossips stopped since nothing out of the boundary ever happened.
Nowadays, my skin is thicker than en elephant, and I no longer ride emotional roller-coaster after 6 or 7 LCs/NCs (though my OCD still makes me quietly ruminating sometimes). With less than 3 months left, I am sweeter with LO; they might be last few encounters before death shall set upon all of us one dayā¦.
Sammy,
“All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts.”
At LwL stage, Iāve played 2 or 3 roles, how are you fairing in your shows?
āSnow, I have no interest in helping you. Youāre here to help yourself ā end of discussion.ā
Wow, throwing Stoic stones back to your teacher so soon, how grateful! š
āAnd if you donāt want to help yourself, thatās fine too. You canāt outsource your responsibilities onto other people.ā
I think Iāve already helped myself tremendously by successfully pulling you onto the stage. šš¤ I had none and will not have any intentions to āoutsourceā my responsibilities onto anyone else. Having kept my plight private for 6 months has proved my point here.
āAlso, Iām not going to engage you in any form of combat. The reason for the lack of combat is I actually like you as a person and have made the unilateral decision to treat you as a friend.ā
You do not like French Fencing š¤ŗ in white tights and mask? š„ŗ How about Ping Pong in black jeans? š
Am I a person here? or merely a ghost? At least I have Sammashās clear image in my head, you have only a phantom of my shape. However, I feel honored to be treated by you as a friend ā your phantom friend! š¤
āI donāt joust with friends, sorry. If you donāt agree with your newfound friend status, too bad, so sad. You have been officially placed in the āfriend boxā. ā
Hmmmmā¦. š¤ I enjoy playing some kinds of wrestling sports with my friends, what are your favorite, best suits? Put me in a āboxā? But I always think outside box, how are you going to contain me there? š
āNow youāre just going to have to endure the indignity of me being nonchalantly sweet toward youā¦ ā
Cough, coughā¦ my teeth are coming offā¦. šØ Iāll frequent my dentists nowā¦
āThe bottom line, Snow, is that Iām happy to have pleasant exchanges with you occasionally, but I have no real ongoing interest in your life, which is strictly your own business and your own responsibility.ā
Sounding so Stoic already? A sweet friend is not interested in his friendās life, do you have a name for this type of āfriendā? Someone recently complained that I was not ātransparentā, so I answered the curiosity and care.
āNo, dear. Just the ones who write Godawful purple prose. (I shall be naming no names. Those guilty of writing Godawful purple prose know exactly who they are. ā
Oh, Dear! Is it those writersā fault that Western Dragons have purple tail? šŖUnlike their counterparts Eastern Dragons who are all green? š
āOh wait ā¦ I think Iām talking about myself. I read back my own comments sometimes, and think: āGosh, thatās such a wise and witty and beautiful commentary. Iād love to meet the author at a garden party hosted in said authorās honourā¦ā). ā
Does a red bird or a lady bug get an invite? šš¦
āThe girls seemed to be living more intensely in their imaginations than the boys. (Perhaps a horrible indictment of a patriarchal society? Perhaps a sign extension English classes mainly attract female introverts?) ā
Lucky Western girls, who are at least allowed to imagine. In the Eastern patriarchal societies, many girls are even NOT allowed to go to schools. So you were placed in an extension English class, due to your introvert femininity?
āSnow ā seriously ā your father issues are disturbing and holding you back from true emotional maturity and genuine relational stability. ā
š šNow do you understand why Iāve subconsciously searched and limerented for an idealized father figure who could actually āMOTHERā me with a big dose of femininity?
āThere is never anything mature about fighting for the sake of fighting, although I know can be fun for some personality types.ā
Can you not to take my words so literally? (Sorry, I keep forgetting youāre an Arspie, who may not get my odd, Eastern sense of humor). Itās more like sporting for winning and losing, not for just enjoyment, thus not always cool.
āSometimes you act like a little girl shouting to be heard. I find your tendency to shout distasteful in the extreme. An adult woman doesnāt shout to be heard. An adult woman speaks in a kind, clear, firm, assertive manner and ASSUMES the whole room will hear her and her views.ā
Not just sometimes, but a lot of times even in my own headā¦. Havenāt I told you enough that I was NOT listened to or heard when little? Havenāt you sensed the desperation of the girl who were left in weekcare for solid two years and inaudibly screamed in the middle of night alone in bed? Itās only understandable that she probably, subconsciously attempted to relive that period hoping a better makeup-parenting. Thank you for having not walked away and listened to my ādistasteful shoutingā.
I never claimed that Iām an adult woman, and also know that there is a little girl lived and still living in every adult woman, and a little boy lived and still live in every adult man. Itās basic human psychology. If our adult self does not take a good care of those little girlsā and boyās unmet needs, the adult self would get into some kind of troubles.
I assume you know āCrappy Childhood Faireā numerous video clips on why and how cptsd adults, particularly women, prone to fall in limerence. Why did I write so many short or long monologues to LO who knowingly or unknowingly reenacted my unavailable parents (who never even knew I wanted to be heard by them?) LO knows all my childhood traumas, so at least agreed to receive and read my missives, but claimed that he couldnāt respond. Then, my imaginations went āwildā about his possible reactions ā all in favorites of the little girlās fancy wishes, e.g like to be listened to and spoiled as a single childā¦. Thus this wired LE worked in partially helping my father-daughter bonding issues.
āFurthermore, an adult woman is comfortable with people having views that differ from her own. Sincere ādifferences of opinionā do not make an adult woman question the legitimacy of her own views. Grown-ups can legitimately hold conflicting views on the same subject, without either party being wrong or being made to feel wrong. (In discussions of feelings, there is no right/wrong). ā
Your conception about āan adult womanā is impeccable, but you sound like āpreachingā again. From very early on in LwL, I have repeated that I came here to deal with my bigger issue than limerence ā cptsd. How many mature, āadult womenā have you met with an ongoing, unhealed cptsd? So some of your responses back in October made me, an immature, āchildā woman, feeling wrong and hurt, and made you looking like waving a big morality stick whipping my mere ideations.
āI think healthy father-daughter relationships are friendly and courteous in nature rather than combative. ā
Agree, but IT was never modeled to me unfortuntely. Viewing yourself as a father-figure, perhaps you could show me the way? š
āCombativeness as a style only alienates listeners, even if the combative person is 100% in the right. If you want to communicate an important message, you have to learn to charm people, and be less defensive overall. ā
Just because I used the word, did I really behave ācombativeā? You once said you did not like debate, so I went easy on that, although I firmly believe that calm debates are very constructive for oneās mind.
I very much agree with your principle on communication. Considering youāre maturer, easier going, kind, erudite, I probably have subconsciously treated you as a āpunch bagā for my fatherās āsinā ā his huge pride, wanting to be thought the most intelligent, charming, and achieved person on the earth; his daughter was just one piece on his chess board, while she wanted to be spoiled as a daddyās only girl.
āSnow, the people here arenāt trying to shame you or disrespect you or patronise you.ā
I know it is very true. Why do you think otherwise? My poor English led to this much of misleading???
I SO hope you do not always speak on behalf of āthe peopleā, but only yourself. You donāt even know how many people visit this room daily or weekly, scan or read seriously. Can not you use āIā more? And from now on, Iāll point out when I see you āpatronizeā me, you seem to have such a habitā¦.
āThe people here also arenāt interested in babysitting you.ā
Please speak for yourself! Where did you get that impression that I want to be babysit? This choice of the word is very condescending! Donāt you see it?
I never even told you guys what was really going on in my reality and have been dealing with all challenges on my own for nearly 6 months ā Iām only here for 7 months. Babysitting me? Are you (you alone) qualified to be my nanny? š
āThe people here are mostly disinterested adult observers with lives & problems of their own. And if they respond to you at all, thatās a mark of favour, a sign of incredible kindness.ā
Canāt you hear yourself, representing āthe peopleā here defining their acts? I am one of āthe peopleā here in LwL, what youāre saying does NOT represent me. I AM Interested and care adult observers, and respond others when I think I could contribute a penny of my thoughts. In many situations, I am not qualified to say anything since I do not have their lived or felt experiences.
Are you also hinting that I do not know such kind of favor and kindness when others responded me? Havenāt I thanked them in my responses to them? Are you speaking for yourself or representing others, of whom Iām not aware?
āDo not repay kindness with ingratitude or angry rants or (deeply repulsive but also hilarious) āadult temper tantrumsāā¦
Ah! I see the issue here. When an ESL honestly questionied a usage of a BIG word in an English poem and pointed out its possible psychological connotations, then thatās āangry rants or adult temper tantrumsā¦.ā When you were chanting paragraphs after paragraphs with reiterations about impropriety of disclosure or of indifference towards someone elseās SO, thatās calm reasoning, not a āholy crusadeā? ā
āā¦ oh my gosh ā¦ wait for it ā¦ wait for it ā¦ the crime of the century ā¦ someone dared to insert the wrong word in a poem!! ā
Oh my good gracious, who has so dared to put those words into your mouth or your mind? š³
āLetās take your comment about āthought policeā, for example. Oh you poor sweet thing, didnāt anyone bother to tell you? ā
āPoor sweet thingā sounds patronizing, please stop using it! Period!
āThereās no such thing as āthought policeā. āThought policeā, if they exist at all, are bogeywomen living in your own head. They are merely manifestations of your own psyche. (Or manifestations of your own guilty conscience, I dare say). ā
Have you ever read Orwellās ā1984ā? Understand how old Soviet Union, North Korea and Chinese governments dictate their states and people? And how they brainwash and gradually put āthought policemenā in ordinary peopleās head so they censure themselves before even daring to speak a word of discordance or different opinion?
āWhen you angrily accuse others of being the āthought policeā,
I did not accuse āothersā, only YOU alone. I agree with DrL that āthere is no thought crime. Those who judge, moralize, condemn, or attack merely thoughts, opinions or ideations in other peopleās mind are THOUGHT POLICEMEN. They exist in internet all over places nowadays, are you still living in a wild forest in the Pacific?
āyou are actually behaving in an astonishingly childish way. Such accusations are utterly incomprehensible to Westerners, let me assure you. ā
Aha! I see that you alone are representing Westerners nowā¦ I suggest that you go to North Korea, China or Russia and live there for three months, then come back to debate with me about āthought policemenā.
A dragon canāt even expand so fast from āthe peopleā of LwL to Westerners in a couple of paragraphs! Grown up in a highly individualized civil society, do you know how to speak for YOURSELF, YOU alone?! Assure me? Who am I? š«ļø
āSuch accusations suggest the poor soul making said accusations is suffering from some form of paranoia, and believes someone is trying to come between her and her fantasies. ā
How did you really get so much excessive energy to target at my āpoor soulā? whatās up with you? Iām seriously asking: WHAT IS GOING ON WITH YOU, Sammyāā
āGuess what, honey? No one can come between you and your fantasies. Wanna know why no one can steal your fantasies? No one can steal your fantasies because your fantasies are ā¦ fantasies! You can cling to your fantasies or you can update or replace or discard your fantasies. But whatever you do with your fantasies only you can decide. Other people have no jurisdiction over your fantasies.ā
Did I consult you about my fantasiesāš¤ My fantasies are my own business ā End of discussionāļøThanks so much for caring!
āMore to the point, other people ā more often than not ā have zero interest in your fantasies.ā
So what? Whether āother peopleā (or just you?) are interested in my fantasies is entirely their own business! No one has pressured anyone to read anyone elseās posts here; Iām free to speak about my limerence experiences and related thoughts, regardless how others (re)acts, and you did too. Whatās your point of the statement here?ā
And just why and how my fantasies have offended or annoyed you so much that they deserve so much of your precious time and energy to comment and summarize? My dear, you are not āother peopleā, just YOU alone. š
āIf someone on here talks to you, again, theyāre being kind-hearted toward you. You have to stop perceiving malice where none exists. ā
When I did EVER perceive āmaliceā from any of you guys here? My gosh, you really do not understand humorous tones/words or lightheartedness. I apologize if I have not thanked you enough for your serious, sincere dialogues and discussions with me. ā I spent a whole day to write a complete poem praising you!ā¦ and you ignored it as if it did not exist (bad or good is not the point!)! Now you claim that I perceived malice from some talks? From where and what? How do you know any perceptions in my head? Is that Mr. Mosesā skill?
Sammy, youāre deeply puzzling me here, seriously! Is this something Aspies have that I am very ignorant of? Is this your special style of āsweatinessā that I donāt know at all as an Easterner?
āPeople here actually like you, Snow, and are probably hugely sympathetic to your plight. Do not lash out at people who actually like you. Do not lash out at anyone, period.ā
I like a lot of people here, too! Did I ālash outā at anyone here, besides in one Oct. 16 message to you? (Because I believed that your big heart and maturity could take it, but you were unable to unfortunately!) If you canāt comprehend my true thoughts and fondness for you, I suggest you watch āMuch Ado About Nothing!ā Do you or can you relax?
āIām going to be really honest with you, Snow. I have no idea why I even talk to you, because I canāt really relate to your situation and am indifferent to whether or not people choose to act on their limerence. (Not my life. Not my problem). ā
Iām beginning seriously asking the same question: why do you even talk to me, help edit my little prose, and spend your precious time in scribbling āWar and Peace 2ā with me??? I thought we liked each otherās mindset and could open-mindedly ask, answer, or explore some serious or fun topics in life. But lately you seemed to get more offended easily for some reasons beyond my knowledge or comprehension. š¤
I assure you and others who care for me here, my mood is getting better and more stable despite my āplightā. And in my messages to Nisor yesterday, I contributed such a positive state of my mind to our serious dialogues and discussions (I humorously called it āsword fightsā) in all fields of humanities. I showed my genuine gratitudes directly and indirectly in my posts to you and to others, so how did I make you feel so unappreciated?
And if Iām so childish beyond a plausibility to be āfatheredā for a second chance and to ever mature, why on earth are you wasting your energy and time with me? I thought youād feel clearer now about my transparent LE situation. But your message sounds upset to my ear, and I have no clue whyāļøā
āI think the reason I spend so much time talking to you is that you subconsciously remind me of my biological mother.ā
I hope youāre not insinuating that Iām also subconsciously mothering you in LwLā just kidding. You sympathies me like you do your mother.
āI think my biological mother had undiagnosed borderline personality disorder ā or cptsd, if you like. (To a layperson, bpd and cptsd appear to be very similar conditions).ā
To my therapist and me, they are different.
āBasically, when my mother was feeling relaxed, she was a wonderful human being to be around. She was genuinely very warm, very idealistic, and had the most amazing imagination. When my mother was feeling stressed, however, she was moody, she had outbursts of irrational anger, and she was prone to paranoid ideation.ā
It does NOT sound like me. Iām not so moody, at least outsiders could not tell. As I told Nisor, I donāt get angry easily nowadays with my meditation going on. If you perceive a lot of irrational anger in my talks, then either your comprehension is OFF or my English needs to be sharpened urgently. My most negative mood is just depression. My dilettante Stoicism and Buddhism still work on me.
āLike many people with bpd, my mother incorrectly believed that people were mysteriously out to get her. (People in actual fact werenāt out to get my mother. People in actual fact were out to GET AWAY from my mother, because they found her over-the-top personality deeply embarrassing and her constant stream of false accusations so confusing. No one genuinely disliked my mother).ā
Thatās not me, and I donāt have bpd. I donāt believe people are out there to get me. Iām mostly at ease that strange dogs in the street always come to me for a pet. Most people I know are either nice or indifferent but polite. No one has time or energy to care too much outside their own lives or problems, particular in a metropolitan city where I live.
āMy mother also had a very troubled relationship with her own father. It seems like he either ignored her or overindulged her. Females who donāt have good relationships with their dads seem to grow up into extremely unhappy women who relentlessly strive to manipulate the opposite sex and lack emotional maturity. If they attract a man at all, they invariably attract a weak man, a doormat, a pushover.ā
Youāre generalizing again here and trying to fit individual cases into your theories. My father neither ignored me nor indulged me; he tried to mold me into his āadult puppyā or just live under his āwise, protectiveā wings, but I want my own independence and autonomy. My relationship with my mother is much more troubling! Every family has its own unique dynamics, I would not generalize anything in various family dynamics.
āDonāt be that woman, Snow. She isnāt you and she isnāt worthy of you. You can do better. You can be better. Donāt let your past or your present stop you from being a āclass actā.
Wait, slow down here. What is āthat womanā? And what kind of a āclass actā consist of in your eyes?
Sammy, I really appreciate your sincere care. š But I will not joke with you anymore, you do not understand my kind of humors, Humoring you is dangerousā¦. š
Sincerely thank you for your friendship! š«
Iām having my brunch now (15:15); let me see what I could taste from the āsweetā cake that my ānewfound friendā, an INFJ āMr. Mosesā š» has sent me:
I have no interest in helping you
write Godawful purple prose
your father issues are disturbing
act like a little girl
distasteful in the extreme
uninterested in babysitting you
Ingratitude or angry rants or (deeply repulsive but also hilarious)
āadult temper tantrumsā
Oh you poor sweet thing
bogeywomen living in your own head.
manifestations of your own guilty conscience
in an astonishingly childish way
the poor soul
suffering from some form of paranoia
have zero interest in your fantasies
perceiving malice
why I even talk to you
Wow, 18 ingredients, what a genius to make such a rich, complex cake! š°
Iāll have to slowly savor it, making it last longerā¦.
Without watching the news earlier, I was literally thinking about Aleksei A. Navalny a couple of hours ago. Just now I learned that the worldās #1 Thought Police, Putin, had him ādiedā in the prison yesterday!
What a synchronicity with one word! Jungian follower believe it, but I was always skeptical. Now, Iām speechlessā¦.
During the Great Purge (1936-38), Stalin in Soviet Union had nearly 700,000 his dissidents killed. During the Cultural Revolution in China: Mao had from 500k –2 million opposing voices permanently silenced. Estimated 710kā 3.5 millions people are murdered in North Korea since its communist regime.
Freedom of speech is taken for granted in the West, but has costed millions of lives in the far East in modern history. It is still highly dangerous in 3 dictatorship countries, where millions of āthought policeā have been ideologically, legitimately āinstalledā in their peopleās head making them living in fear. With the internet surveillance existing in everyoneās cell phone, the āBig Brotherā is more powerful than in ā1984ā.
It is such a mind-boggling: you praise a magnificent, benevolent Dragon spirit š out of a ākind and eruditeā moralist āMr. Mosesā, then you get in return a pile of a snakeās venomous bitesā¦ Is it an unknown (to me) issue of religious faith/ideology, gender identity, Aspie/cptsd nature, or personality complexity, eg. Narcissism/ego-pride, envy/jealousy, controlling, sensitivity, sensibility, human fragilityā¦etc. āāāāāā
Being an INFP limerent, I can be and have been very blind not just to my LOs, but also to fellow limerents on the similar suffering pathā¦. Well, I guess I have to say: Cāest la vie, both in reality and āghostā landā¦. š½
If an (un)forgiving is ever needed, I simply have no clues what IT is that would require such a contemplationā¦ Oh, my poor āinner childā! š£
Snow hi,
No word I can say now can comfort you ; you have to go through the motions of of these trials, and only you can make the decisions your heart requests of youā¦
We all rally around you to give you support and have an understanding mind, and a shoulder for you to lean on. Iām very well aware of the pain you re going through because I have been there, still the sorrow is my most loyal companionship ā¦ Iāve welcomed and accepted it as part of lifeā¦
I found this poem, by D.H. Lawrence , which gives me food for meditationā¦
PHOENIX , D. H. Lawrence
Are you willing to sponged out/ erased, cancelled / made nothing? /. Are you willing to be made nothing?/ dipped into oblivion?
If not, youāll never change./ The Phoenix renews her youth/ only when she is burnt alive, /
burnt down/ to hot and flocculent ash.
Then the small stirring of a new small bub
in the nest/ with strands of dawn like floating ash/ shows that she is renewing her youth/ like the eagle/ immortal bird.
Site: Sandra Lee Dennis , PhD. Poetry and Prose.
Iām not writing much because I had an eye cataract removed and I need to take care not to lean my head down much.
Iām with you, wishing you courage and strength in these difficult times. Wish I was near to give you a bear hug. Best wishes. The Phoenix always rises from the ashes to a brand new level.
Phoenix
D.H. Lawrence
Are you willing to be sponged out, erased, cancelled,
made nothing?
Are you willing to be made nothing?
dipped into oblivion?
If not, you will never really change.
The phoenix renews her youth
only when she is burnt, burnt alive, burnt down
to hot and flocculent ash.
Then the small stirring of a new small bub in the nest
with strands of down like floating ash
shows that she is renewing her youth like the eagle,
immortal bird.
Hi Nisor š«
Thank you for your forever upbeat support!
Youāve been supporting me with your tireless posters here. Itās not easy for me to expose my deep inner pains and complexity due to my pride. But you, Sammy, Mila, Marcia, LE, Adam, Bewitched, Ihmoā¦ and many others have been providing me insights and support since Day one. I did not alway agree with all advices from each individualās experiences, but by discussing and debating, Iāve learned about myself and gained strength to face the challenging reality that constantly triggered my cptsd, which is the bigger target to overcome.
But life takes its own course, Fate has her whimsical hand turning the wheel randomlyā¦ I need adopt and CAN adopt.
Thank you for referring D.H. Lawrenceās poem. Based on my past dozen of big and small LEs and how firmly Iāve left them behind without any sentimentalities, I think I qualify for the redbirdās personality.
In the past, I have ādiedā and was reborn many times alone; this time, I have you watching over and around me, so Iām much less fearful, painful, or lonely. A million thanks again!š
I hope you recover soon from your cataractā¦.
Hi Snow, how are you today?
Iām relishing Tennysons poem āIn Memoriamā, itās a long poem, 131 individual poems combined in one written over 16 years lapse.
Site: The Literature Network- In Memoriam A.H.H. by Lord Alfred Tennyson. Or http://www.online-literatureā¦
It is said that the poem allowed the poet, over many years, to continue to merge grief with love.
I agree , thereās no love that does not have the grief side of it. Specially limerents.
Tennyson asserts that keeping grief fresh is better, and is the more loving act, that allowing time to lessen oneās grief. Being loving means continuing grieve, even if that experience pains the griever.
I have learned to live with grief, itās a sweet grief one gets attached to. One does not complain anymore, one embraces it as a friend , accepting it with resignation ; it lurks in the shadows as if afraid to leave, but someday, suddenly, it will leave you alone, very alone! And then one will say, oh, where are you my golden thorn that makes my heart bleeds! Who can feel you again tearing at my heartā¦
A dose of grief is not that bad. Letās not be afraid of itā¦
Have a pleasant good night sleep.Hugs.
Nisor,
Thank you for your deep caring for my wellbeing; your message made me immediately tearing, which rarely occurred in meā¦. I so wish it could happen more, so to help release my deeper sadness or melancholyā¦
However, Iām doing rather well, especially after have finally āreleasedā my utmost stresses here. As you said once: a pain shared is reduced to half.
I canāt post a longer reply I just finished. Wellā¦.
I scanned through the Tennysonās epic poem, itās very heavy and religious to me; honestly I am simply unable to read anything with too many ālordā, āthyā, āthouā, andāthineā in it. Moreover, the speaker laments for his LO or LOās glorious life, which I find hard to relate to my case:
1. LO remains enigmatic, distanced, and sometimes annoying, and Iām not deluded anymore at this late stage of LE to see any rosy halo over LOās head ā really did see literally for the first four years, talking about the altered mind of Limerentsā brain!
2. LO demonstrated some unpleasant personality traits that has diminished my respect. Lately, he no longer appears as that idealized surrogate father figure, but an insecure, weary, avoidant, sensitive āteenagerā. Heās still very attractive in appearance and manner, like a piece of cake, but I do not know enough of him to āglorifyā anything that he has possibly done in reality for others or humanity, certainly not me.
3. I donāt think I can call my limerence, āLoveā ā perhaps just one-sided Eros or an over-sized obsession. As I have discussed with Sammy that I donāt think Iām primarily in limerence with LO, but with something deep inside myself (spiked energy, aliveness, positivity, creativity, and joy??) that were awaken by LOās mere existence. Like a Sensor, he did not reciprocate my longings either in person or in writing, but extricated, hoovered and basked under my infatuation.
4. You and Sammy both had actual dating experiences or platonic friendships with your LOs, respectively. I had almost nothing of a romance sort, and would never be able to write an epic poem about my LO/LE, whatās there to write about, besides my one-sided reveries or fantasies for an idealized, phantom parent who could actually āmotherā me with his strong femininity???
5. I donāt know how deep my grief for the coming ādeathāwould be in three months. At the end of August, just one month after I found LwL, my limerence was weak and cloudy after a long summer break and NC of a limited time with LO. I just wanted to learn what limerence is all about, and thought I was ready to try a longer NC during a regular semester when LO would be physically around. So when the bad news came, I immediately experienced āabandonment melangeā (by the working āhomeā) and went into panic attacks before the first day of school.
6. Once I saw that Fate would force a complete NC on me in 9 months, I aborted my plan for even LC with LO. I faked more smiles at LO, apologized and retrieved my attacking letter (called him a liar and narcissist) sent to him in Fall of 2022, and invited him for tea and cake, which made LO looking happier, but sadder inside me. I felt sad and depressed even when my students graduated, now a permanent or eternal departure from LO, who somewhere, somehow resembles a bit of myself?? I felt like I was going to leave behind a piece of myself, and could not imagine how I could live/survive without physically seeing LO around regularly.
7. Not knowing you āghostsā well back then and being private, shy in general about my personal feelings (quite shocked by some of Sammyās ānakedā posts), I decided to deal with my heart-breaking reality on my own. My meditation was affected, unable to concentrate well like during the summer; still, many longer sessions succeeded without any giddiness ever coming again. Unlike in the past LE, when I tried to run away from my sadness (binge ice cream or Netflix), this time I stayed with it either deep in the night or early in the dawn ā literally āhuggedā the painful disbelief and grief in my chest. They became weaker or dissipated after I āstared atā them from 1 to 2 hours. But they would come back next day, merry-go-round-n-round!
8. More differently from my past LEs, this time I did have you āguysā to chat about LO/LE stuff. It took me a while to realize that you ghosts, without judgements, are seriously, unbendingly trying to comfort and support old and new limerentsā bewildered and suffering souls, no matter what kinds of ābeautiful/wiseā or āugly/stupidā cases are presented. Still, with my serious cptsd, I was very self-conscious and self-protective, afraid of even perceived misunderstanding, judgement, mockery, criticism, or even attack (one did, and his post was removed in time by DrL before I saw it)ā¦. But I rambled and babbled along (more about my past in terms of cptsd), just to distract myself from my āsurrealā reality and constantly hammering depression.
9. However, my mood began to be shifted when Sammy pinned on my heels with those brain-spinning questions, which I could neither ignore nor respond light-heartedly. Then, my combative masculinity got me into the further debates and even verse āwrestlingā. Oneās mind is unable to stay in grief if it is involved in creativities or profound inquiries. Hinted to Sammy that I was facing a life-changing situation, I thought he waved a big stick to distract me from my unspeakable stresses and melancholy.
Then, he disappeared for a month, while LO was continuing ādistancingā me with his annoying, cold politeness. So I picked up piano lessons and bean sprouting to lift up my sinking spirit. Very soon, my grief began easing. Physical hand movement is really therapeutic, help releasing my OCD (Iām still practicing it everyday, and my two hands could play separate keys now), and the sight of organic growth of salad (still sprouting everyday) just brought this inexpressible comforting and joy inside my heart.
10. From Thanksgiving through the winter break, to the first day of this semester, I was less sad but more nervous for unknown reasons, accompanied by many sad and frightening dreams. NC in writing helped me mentally distance from LO, which I hope would further reduce my ongoing grief, and somehow make me able to courageously face the final ādeathā. I spent more time here getting deeper acquainted with you ghosts, slowly feeling like in a āfamilyā ā literally a ghost family!
Iāve probably spoken more, substantially and meaningfully, in the past 7 months here, than the past 7 years with the rest of people combined in my reality. Calling it a rehab is not exaggerating. Because we are NOT professional therapists but equal limerence sufferers, it is working (in reducing and healing the pains of my past LEs, of cultural and familial traumas), at least for ME.
āTennyson asserts that keeping grief fresh is better, and is the more loving act, that allowing time to lessen oneās grief. Being loving means continuing grieve, even if that experience pains the griever.ā
I am not sure whether ākeeping grief freshā is a loving act, maybe Yes to Tennyson. I donāt even know whether my LE is love, Eros only, or Philia involved, or just a deprived, selfish āchildāsā whimsical desires that rose and fell, came and wentā¦. More than often, one only appreciates something when one is about losing itā¦. So when this unavoidable loss has been definitively approving, my grief reached its maximum height in the Fall; however, does this Fate change the nature of my LE? Is it āloveā or just something I have been obsessed with? Something occurred, imagined only in my head, nonetheless still āpreciousā?
My shocking grief is no longer fresh after 5.5 monthsā not at this moment of scrabbling ātomorrow is another day! I was not repressing it, I was not running away from it, and I was not āglorifyingā it with verses or lyrics, but was/are simply watching it in meditation, which has made my grief backed up again and again. Then, focusing my attentions in exploring the larger world of humanities ā arts, music, poetry, classical ligature, philosophy, psychology, spiritualityā¦. as well as in my inner domain ā the conscious mind and the Unconscious realm, has naturally reduced the grief of an inevitable loss. Thank Heaven, it is not so sudden, I had 9 months to prepare for a full embraceā¦.
As D.H. Lawrence says in his poem, a true phoenix needs to be burnt alive, burnt down in order to renew her youth. So I think Iāll neither hold onto my grief too tight nor try to get rid of it too fast; Iāll let it run its own course.
With my LwLās limited experiences, instigated, inspired, encouraged, and supported by all of you, I think and believe that constant learning, exploring for knowledge and wisdom, and appreciative creating (in art) for āstill lovelyā people and matters in the world will eventually cure and heal our shared and individualistic limerence sufferings.
****
The whole piece is broken to 4 parts.
Nisor,
Another way to cure or reduce grief is directing writing about it; the pain could be reduced up to 100%, at least for a while.
I have to confess that each time I finished a poem since last Fell, whether with Sammy or by myself, I got the writerās High, giddily or even ecstatic for days ā including that āgray, misty skyā one, as if any kind of troubles were of out of my lifeā¦.š
Creating writing/arts is surely one effective form of psychotherapy, definitely for me. š¦
Hi Snow,
Itās Saturday, I hope youāre well rested.
Youāre approaching a finishing line, as I understand in May, to handle your LE, and your job situation. Difficult times ahead of you, I can see. Youāre being tested on all fronts , but whatever you do, do not panic! Sometimes we go through trials in life which turn out to be for the better, only, we cannot see it at the time weāre going through it.
Probably you ll have sorrow for detaching from LO, since itās a feeling you had whether real or an illusion. And yet, you have been working and preparing for āthat dayā for awhile now, it will not be a sudden surprise.
The departure from the premises of the Institute, may affect you more, I guess? Many years of sharing with colleagues and students, I can feel itās going to be very sad. Itās like leaving homeā¦many memories. One needs to be strong and courageous, and youāre a stoic, so itās going to be okay I suppose. One has to press toward other goals for the future, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead.
Life has many surprises, and this may be a great opportunity to do or start something new, something you d never thought of. Who knows!
You have a nice restful and peaceful weekend. Hugs.
Hi Nisor,
Good Saturday to you!
Iām still in bed (12:30 local time), drinking coffee reading, thinking, reflecting, dialoguing in headā¦ weekend mornings in bed is so enjoyable ā no rush to go anywhere or to do anythingā¦.
āYouāre approaching a finishing line, as I understand in May, to handle your LE, and your job situation. Difficult times ahead of you, I can see. Youāre being tested on all fronts , but whatever you do, do not panic!ā
I got the news of the possible termination of my program on Aug. 10th, so itās 6 months old, no longer freshly shocking. Iāve accepted it as an irreversible fact, and constantly thought about what I want my next life phrase to be in a larger scope. Of course, itās up to my own design.
After reading some of LwL posts over 7 months and by comparison, I consider myself being more resilient in facing and handling adversities, due to my COOā, Fatherās training, and Buddhism/Stoicism tradition and my own practices of them ā Life is PERPETUALLY unpredictable, and one MUST mentally prepare for all kinds of āWORSTā ā a healthy mentality practice. So when any worst strikes, one is not crashed but could face it with a calm smile, āAh, I know it would happenā¦ letās see what I need to do nowā¦ā
I didnāt prepare enough for Fatherās sudden brain stroke, thatās why I got the worst psychological hit so badly when he passed away in 9 days. Then, I slipped into LEās grip. There was a peaceful and sweet 9 months after Glimmer to the beginning of LE. But this LE did wind down from last April to June before I even found LwL, through which Iāve learned and understood so much better what had happened to me during LE and why. A lot of times, even just understanding and awareness of an issue can dissolve that issue in halfā¦. My eternal thanks to DrLās efforts to assist all of us!
Based on my own LE and learning from LwL, I am convinced that LE cannot be switched off in a day, or a week, or in however long. I had a faith back in the summer that I could turn it off soon, since my emotion was ready – LO appeared annoying and cold in my head during his physical absence in summer. Meanwhile, my effective meditation is helping me tremendously.
But when the Fate stepped in, my psychology changed. We humans often believe we could manage our own life and tend to take matters in our own trying hands instead of āwaiting to be slaughteredā by any kind of external force or Fate. We also often un-appreciate what we already have, but value it only when it is threatened to be taken away or when itās already gone.
Thatās what happened with my attitude towards LO. I didnāt/donāt want keeping my unrequited LE for the Phantom in my head, but wished I could change it to an unrequited Philia love for a friend, who has not done much damages to my life, except my ego-pride. But an ending of my work would take opportunities away for making such efforts and positive changes.
āProbably you ll have sorrow for detaching from LO, since itās a feeling you had whether real or an illusion. And yet, you have been working and preparing for āthat dayā for a while now, it will not be a sudden surprise.ā
My LEās symptoms, either ups or downs, were mostly gone last spring and I was experiencing the postal melancholy phrase as I discussed with Mila in early Fall. But a new sorrow of no longer able to physically seeing and interacting with LO (I did not have other expectations by then) strongly kicked in. I thought about more LC back in the Fall and this Spring semester, but simply could not do it: a permanent departure is surely coming on a specific day, why rush it? As my father often said, āWe are all going to die, why rush it with a suicide?ā
āThe departure from the premises of the Institute, may affect you more, I guess? ā
Yes, thatās another big mental crash; fulfilling teaching, learning from students, leading a study abroad program, socializing with caring and supportive colleaguesā¦. will be all gone after May, Iāll feel like āhomelessā! But luckily, Iām not under a financial stress (with my frugal lifestyle), and can take my time to look for a new post, full-time or part-time.
āOne needs to be strong and courageous, and youāre a stoic, so itās going to be okay I suppose. One has to press toward other goals for the future, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead.ā
I donāt have other bigger goals in overall life. I consider myself as an āartist of lifeā in mind and sprit (stoicism/buddhism is just one specific mechanism to help any realistic goals). Because I donāt morally JUDGE but equally value all my experiences by trying to āpaintā them as accurately as possible on the canvas of my individual life. A great artist is an observant, depicting life as it was/is, no matter how painful or dark it was/is. In my small šļø, propaganda arts (religions and ideology involved) are lacking authentic, esthetic beauties, due to their subjective goals.
So I will not forget or trash my past experiences no matter how unpleasant and painful they were/are, but remember them either in mind or in words. In addition, we all learn, mature and evolve from all our adversary experiences, donāt we (Buddhism)? So my LE memories, whether realistic with LO or illusive with the phantom, will be kept (Iāve kept over 1500 missives/monologues from this LE), so in my death bed, I will have it, along with other previous memories, to recall on and feel gratified: Ah, after all Iāve had worthy experiences!
āLife has many surprises, and this may be a great opportunity to do or start something new, something you d never thought of. Who knows!ā
Youāre absolutely right. Thatās another reason I picked up piano learning, which I always wanted to do since childhood. If not now, when? My mind has been adventurous enough to try any worthy endeavors, the edge of the earth is only limit.
Nisor, I so appreciate your forever cheering me up, encouraging me, and inspiring me to think about new and courageously face unknowns in the future.ā¦
Big bear hugs to your way! š«
Hi. LE has been a bittersweet experience, thatās how I can sum it up as. The highs are awesome, one is literally on cloud 9. The lows, on the other hand, suck big time. SOs are present for both, so itās an impossible situation really. Would I turn it off? Right now, I would say yes, as the lows were very scary. Not to mention the loss of productivity. Maybe after the passage of time, one can offer a more objective analysis.
I have to admit that sometimes I envy people who apparently never become limerent; however, it seems that these same people are less empathetic, less creative, and sometimes less agreeable; they don’t seem to experience the world as fully and vividly as curious people do ā they seem to be literally less conscious. (I guess I’m suggesting that limerents are innately more curious.) This said, I’d think wishing to disable your limerence switch is a lot like āwishing to be somebody elseā, or like musing over counterfactuals like “What if my mother had had a child (me?) with someone else other than my father”. Obviously, if “you” had had a different father, you would be “somebody else” (not you); and they may very well have lacked a pesky limerence switch. (Maybe we could bring back ice pick lobotomies.) So no, I don’t think turning off limerence would even be a good idea, even if it were posible, despite the baggage that comes with it.
I will say though, Interestingly, that a couple of my LOs apparently could turn their emotions on-and-off like flipping a light switch.
I am glad that I had the experiences that I did have of limerence because it brought me insight into myself and this personality quirk. But I am even more glad that I can avoid it now that I know what it is and how I play a part in it.
Being married and feeling limerent for another man is too hard on me. And my limerent brain tried last year to find a replacement, and just when it did I fought it consciously, and it worked.
I do not belive limerence is something that one can turn “off” and it’s gone. It’s an internal struggle. It will always be with me because it is a quirk in my personality, my being, my brain.
It’s a part of me that kind of distorts reality. I have learned to navigate according to my belief system as a Christian. When it is “turned on” or activated it makes me feel and act like an adulteress (in my thoughts, which has great potential to lead to actions). I can’t live that way.
I am so glad this site gave it a name, and gave me real tools to fight it, to process it, and understand it.
I would 100% turn it off. Iām going through my first LE and itās hell. Iām married and so is he, managed to go NC for 5 weeks and itās been one of the hardest things Iāve gone through. And Iām still going through it. And Iāve never even met him, itās all been an online thing. Crazy.
The only good thing to have come out of it is that Iāve lost weight and got fitter. Thatās it. Hopefully never again. Before realising what limerence was, I really did think I was going mad. At first it was magical, oh yes, like being a teen again, actually even better. But once the obsessiveness set in, that was it. It turned into a horror story, all in my head. So no thank you, once is enough.
Exact same here!
Craziness for sure. I’m middle aged and I never thought in a million years that I could fall for someone over the internet!
Boggles the mind.
I’m a little over 2 months NC.
Good luck to the both of us.
Hi Anna, nice to meet you! Havenāt spoken to anyone who became limerent for someone they met online. Iām middle aged too, lovely husband and kids, great job, great life and here I am, getting over an obsession. Iām in the stage where Iām embarrassed about the whole thing, canāt quite believe whatās happened the past 6 months. Donāt know if thatās a stage at all tbh. Iām not pining over him or even having positive thoughts about him, just cringing although heās still in my head and I wish he wasnāt. Wish Iād gone NC in a different way, think Iām a bit traumatised about how I ended it. But Iām learning from it. And Iām being kind to myself. Would love to find out more about your LE. Good luck to you too! Weāre doing well
Oh my goodness, Gemma, I totally see myself in your comments! I’m married, middle-aged, was happilly going on with my life until this LE. A former colleague, we always had that glimmer but never did anything about it… he lives on the other side of the country and started messaging me about 8 months ago.
I totally fell for it and LIVED for his messages. Then, one day a couple months ago, the frequency stopped and my world collapsed. SO WEIRD. I’m usually a rational, calm, “on top of things” type person and this experience just completeld shook me. I’m SO GRATEFUL for this blog, Dr L’s book and this community!
Going NC..but every now and then, I still might initiate or find some great way to connect.
I don’t think I’d choose to turn it off though. I am fitter now, look better, eat healthier. Sure, I’m down now (because I doubt LO and I will ever meet up), but the side effect of this has been net positive (even with the slight very sad episodes!)
Hi Gemma!
Sorry it’s taken so long to reply, so busy with work!
I’m exactly at the same stage you are, shaking my head wondering what the hell just happened?
Yes, met him online (social media) it was innocent enough at first, we just started chatting over things we had in common.
And before I knew what was happening I was getting up everyday and the first thing I did was to check to see if he messaged me.
Wish I knew back then what I know now, it would of saved me alot of hurt and anxiety!
Anyway, we carried on for quite a few months, it was so exciting!
I’m single and work from home so my life was a bit hum~drum.
We were making plans to meet when he started ghosting and making excuses why any dates I proposed wouldn’t work for him.
I started feeling rejected and that’s when the” OMG what’s happening” set in.
So, after some digging I found out he was lying about everything!
He was married and coupled with a few other things I discovered it hit me I was dealing with a Narcissist.
Can’t believe I didn’t see it lol Damn you Limerence!
I also can’t believe how gullible I was, like I was born yesterday and so naive how sinister SM can be.
So, I ended it right then, didn’t say anything to him, just went NC right then and there. (almost 3 months now)
Don’t know if he has tried to reach out, I have him blocked everywhere.
I’m like you, cringing, disgusted that I fell for it all.
Just the thought of him causes me a lot of anxiety.
But I can’t get him out of my head
The good thing about all of this is I started going to therapy to try to unravel the mystery of why I fall for these type of men and why I don’t see the red flags when they were so blatantly waving in my face!
Good Luck Gemma, please know you are not alone in this.
“Would you turn off your limerence?”
This is a very interesting question. Of course, it can be divided into two questions: (1) “Would you turn off your propensity for limerence in general?” and (2) “Would you turn off your limerent attraction for a particular LO?” I believe the blog post Dr. L writes poses the former question.
We can look to history and literature to help us answer this question. The British writer A. S. Byatt, author of a novel called “Possession”, said that “sexual embarrassment” is a topic that’s not written about/discussed often enough.
I don’t think Byatt was referring to mechanical failure in the bedroom or mismatched libidos between partners. I believe the “sexual embarrassment” Byatt refers to is the embarrassment of liking someone who doesn’t like one back. Or, alternatively, the embarrassment of being liked by someone one doesn’t like back.
In other words, limerence can lead to a great deal of awkwardness (when two people aren’t on the same page) that some people would rather avoid altogether. These people may wish to turn off the switch on their limerence. (Or they might wish to turn off other people’s limerence switches! Now there’s a thought!) š¤£
On the other hand, we have the Irish poet W. B. Yeats who fell madly in love (or limerence, more likely) with fellow Irish patriot, Maud Gonne. (I like to say he was “a goner for Gonne”. Yeats proposed marriage to Gonne at least once, and she turned him down.
Gonne knew that Yeats’ passion for her made him very, very unhappy. However, she took the line that Yeats’ unhappiness inspired him to write beautiful poetry (often about Gonne) and that this beautiful poetry indirectly made Yeats happy.
I don’t think Gonne felt particularly guilty about Yeats’ (unrequited) love for her – she saw that Yeats’ unrequited love greatly enhanced Yeats’ creative output. If Yeats were alive, he might tell us that he didn’t wish to turn off the switch on his limerence, at least not for the first thirty years of his adult life, because he was producing so much good work and that his “muse” wasn’t opposed to playing the “muse” role in his life.
Sammy,
I could not help think/feel Yeatsās case is applicable in yoursā¦.
I myself could not scrabble one substantial word when I was giddy or happyā¦ every single line, even just 3-4 words, came out of pains, or longings, or sighsā¦ which would be somehow released after their completion ā then a temporary happiness?
@Snowphoenix.
“I could not help think/feel Yeatsās case is applicable in yoursā¦.”
Yes, I see some parallels between Yeats’ situation and mine. Yeats’ was rumoured to be an Aspie also. š
I think when artists take to the pen/paint/clay to immortalise their beloved, what they’re really trying to capture and/or explain is … the feeling of ecstasy that goes off inside one’s brain when one beholds one’s beloved. In their work, a lot of artists are trying to answer the question: “What is sexual allure? Every LO clearly has ‘sexual allure’ in spades, but what IS sexual allure exactly?”
I think this “feeling of ecstasy” that artists/limerents/limerent-artists have is indeed a sexual response to beauty. But it’s a sexual response to beauty that has somehow been transformed and cerebralised. (Is cerebralised a real word?)
In other words, one experiences attraction inside one’s head and one is paralysed/spellbound by what one sees. Hence, the “deer-in-headlights” look so many limerents classically display around LOs. (Or course, one might be paralysed/spellbound because one is also involved in deep analysis of what LO’s behaviour means or what I, limerent, should now be doing to win over LO and/or not repel LO). š
Basically, sexual attraction is something that one should feel (I imagine) very much in one’s body. It’s the body that’s supposed to be sexual and not the brain. But, for some reason, limerents have this sexual response concentrated in their brains I think… Maybe this is the true meaning of “Eros”? I.e. Eros is a sexual response that takes place primarily in one’s brain and not in one’s body?
Limerence becomes a problem when one keeps “bleeding feelings of ecstasy” in response to a given individual. In normal people, the attraction response lessens over time. In limerents, the attraction response may keep growing stronger wih the passage of time, thereby causing distress. š¤
Most great artists are lifelong limerents – otherwise they wouldn’t have the patience/obsessive desire to keep creating in response to fairly-limited stimuli e.g. one particular type of woman, one particular type of man. š
@Sammy,
Wow, š Have you thought of writing a lyric/prose to glorify limerence itself, its inexpressible sparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark sky like a comet? Youāre finally praising the bright side of limerence! (Unlike Sammy when I first bumped into LwL) š¤š¤
āYes, I see some parallels between Yeatsā situation and mine. Yeatsā was rumoured to be an Aspie also. ā
If I had just 1% of Yeatsā talent, I would still keep his beloved, Gonne, in distance, so the longing would keep my imaginary, creative work going. By experiences, I vaguely know that once a form of consummation is reached, my intense inexpressible emotions would decrease or even cease, like my marriage did to me. It is somewhat like the excitement that exists in chase/hunt, once a prey is in hand, one loses energy to continue. To artists, LO is fuel, prey is their creation.
From what Iāve heard that Aspies could intensely concentrate on their interested subject at least 4 times more than neurotypicals, and their memories are beyond ānormalā comprehension. Albert Einstein, Darwin, Bill Gates, Elon Musk. Anthony Hopkins, Greta Thunberg, Woody Allen, Andy Warhol, Emily Dicksonā¦ are just a few of Aspies.
āI think when artists take to the pen/paint/clay to immortalise their beloved, what theyāre really trying to capture and/or explain is ā¦ the feeling of ecstasy that goes off inside oneās brain when one beholds oneās beloved. ā
Not just āfeelings of ecstasyā, but a whole range of other emotions, would go into their head first and then artistic creations. Their beloved, beheld, unavailable, or far away, or even died, fuel their brain and soul to express their rich emotions through their creative works.
āIn their work, a lot of artists are trying to answer the question: āWhat is sexual allure? Every LO clearly has āsexual allureā in spades, but what IS sexual allure exactly?ā
I think this question goes into many ānormalā peopleās head (may stay short), but particularly limerentsā head. I believe sexual allure is directly linked to biological instinct, infused with cultural flares, so no one could figure it out with their intellect, but just feel it. (It somewhat fits my own magnetic theory. ) But artists strive for their work to capture this sexual allure, at least showing it to themselves.
āI think this āfeeling of ecstasyā that artists/limerents/limerent-artists have is indeed a sexual response to beauty. ā
Superficial physical ābeautyā is on a beholderās eyes. I remember that I liemrented for fairly common looking boys (at HS), and I could not understand why, even during my LE with them!
āBut itās a sexual response to beauty that has somehow been transformed and cerebralised. (Is cerebralised a real word?)ā
Precisely! As Iāve said all along, itās a phantom of LO, which has been cerebralised, with which limerent is in limerence . That was why my mind could not remember LOās realistic face, working under my nose, after so many years, but only the vague facial outline. Even his video clips could not help my inner eye šļø see and remember his realistic eyes (only oneās eyes matter to me). How ridiculously puzzling oneās brain could be!
āIn other words, one experiences attraction inside oneās head and one is paralysed/spellbound by what one sees.ā
Also by what one senses simultaneously, five senses, all at instinctual levelsā¦.
āHence, the ādeer-in-headlightsā look so many limerents classically display around LOs.ā
Especially at the beginning stage after the Glimmer. At that stage, all knowledge about largely unknown LO is from 6 senses, not intellect.
āBasically, sexual attraction is something that one should feel (I imagine) very much in oneās body. Itās the body thatās supposed to be sexual and not the brain.ā
I think one may feel it both in body and brain. Itās a part of brain ā hypothalamus, that produces love hormone, isnāt it? Some people feel their entire body is on fire, all neurons are helplessly flared up upon encountering LO or in reveries/imaginations.
āBut, for some reason, limerents have this sexual response concentrated in their brains I thinkā¦ ā
I agree with you here without supporting data, but my own experiences. I posted once that some research points out that the sexiest human organ is brain/mind. https://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/sep/07/neuroscientists-sex-brain ā āSexiest parts of the body revealed by neuroscientistsā, the Guardian
āMaybe this is the true meaning of āErosā? I.e. Eros is a sexual response that takes place primarily in oneās brain and not in oneās body?ā
I still do not grasp the concept of āErosā. Itās a Western concept, coming from Greek mythology. I personally think/feel āErosā is in oneās brain. I had some nearly perfect SE in body but could not have 2 (out of 10) ounces of Eros towards those male partners. Now, without ever touching LOās one finger for nearly 7 years, heās still in my head and dreams, although I feel little or even strange standing in front of him very logically chitchattingā¦ my neural system no longer goes helplessly ācrazyā ā blush on a wrinkled face like a tongue tight teenager! In hindsight, I feel mortified!
āLimerence becomes a problem when one keeps ābleeding feelings of ecstasyā in response to a given individual.ā
If limerents expect little or no in recipraction, keeping ecstasy would be not a big problem. But based on what I hear from posters in LwL, many limerents could not help (addicted) want more, even if they have a loving SO and a family.
āIn normal people, the attraction response lessens over time. In limerents, the attraction response may keep growing stronger wih the passage of time, thereby causing distress. ā
Again I think distress comes from unrequited desires, not pure love-giving emotions. I feel what Iām talking now is unrequited love, no longer self-centered limerenceā¦
āMost great artists are lifelong limerents ā otherwise they wouldnāt have the patience/obsessive desire to keep creating in response to fairly-limited stimuli e.g. one particular type of woman, one particular type of man. ā
Indeed! A LO of artists, Iām certain, is an imagined, idealized phantom of realistic LO very much alive in their head, not any particular type of man or woman. If these artists wish, they could rekindle their limerenceās fire just by imagining and creating better artistic works.
Your posts carry a potential danger to rekindle limerence ashes of a š„ birdā¦. they definitely stimulate a curious but semi-depressed mindā¦ š
@Snowphoenix.
“Wow, š Have you thought of writing a lyric/prose to glorify limerence itself, its inexpressible sparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark sky like a comet? Youāre finally praising the bright side of limerence! (Unlike Sammy when I first bumped into LwL) š¤š¤”
I wasn’t trying to glorify limerence itself. I think I was trying to explain the feelings, or the origins of feelings, that people find so intriguing and rewarding – at least initially.
Maybe your “sparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark sky” is just The Gilmmer? Maybe artists are trying to portray their LO around the time of The Glimmer or just after The Glimmer, and that’s why a lot of art shows idealised representations of men/women?
I’m not really praising the bright side of limerence – not intentionally, anyway. I’m just describing the early stages of still-unconscious physical attraction that someone might conceivably feel.
“our posts carry a potential danger to rekindle limerence ashes of a š„ birdā¦. they definitely stimulate a curious but semi-depressed mindā¦ š”
I don’t want to rekindle limerence in anyone – certainly not in anyone who hasn’t found the experience pleasant overall. I think freedom from limerence may entail acknowledging certain people have great sexual allure, and that’s lovely, but it doesn’t mean they’re destined to become one’s partner.
I think one has to learn to appreciate beauty without wanting to possess beauty. (If one tries to possess beauty, one usually destroys beauty, or destroys one’s ability to enjoy beauty).
Now that I’ve lost most of my sexual allure, I seem to be able to admire sexual allure in others without really fantasising about a relationship. It’s a more neutral admiration. Sort of like: “Oh, So-and-so is nice-looking. Good for So-and-so!” Others may disagree with me, but there’s a real freedom in not being an active player anymore in the mating game. Observer status is kind of fun. š
āI think one has to learn to appreciate beauty without wanting to possess beauty.ā
Thatās the crux of the matter and the root of limerence pain, or at least mine. I would like to appreciate the beauty of the persons Iām limerent for (not necessarily a physical beauty, more a blend of personality, wit, abilities, and of course physical features too) and also the beauty of my feelings, without this need to have more or to be wanted too. It complicates everything.
It would be so great to have these feelings of being alive and having this warm and special affection for a person without always wanting more, validation, closer contact etc.
@Mila.
“Thatās the crux of the matter and the root of limerence pain, or at least mine. I would like to appreciate the beauty of the persons Iām limerent for (not necessarily a physical beauty, more a blend of personality, wit, abilities, and of course physical features too) and also the beauty of my feelings, without this need to have more or to be wanted too. It complicates everything.
It would be so great to have these feelings of being alive and having this warm and special affection for a person without always wanting more, validation, closer contact etc.”
Wow! You express your feelings in such an elegant way, Mila. š
Sammy ,
Donāt make fun of meš
Iām too lazy to check my English for grammar etc, just hope that the meaning comes across somehow.
Kudos to you for your elegant and witty style!
Sammy,
āI wasnāt trying to glorify limerence itself. I think I was trying to explain the feelings, or the origins of feelings, that people find so intriguing and rewarding ā at least initially.ā
Oh, dear! As a writer/poet, donāt you know that any writerās intentions have been understood in millions of different ways, depending on who is reading the works? Essentially, active readers are reading/responding to themselves through the lens of writersā words. In this aspect, youāve got to read more of Proust ā a brilliant member of your clan!
āIn reality, every reader, while he is reading, is the reader of his own self. The writer’s work is merely a kind of optical instru-ment, which he offers to the reader to permit him to discern what, without the book, he would perhaps never have seen in himself. The reader’s recognition in his own self of what the book says is the proof of its truth.ā āMarcel Proust, Le temps retrouvĆ©
āMaybe your āsparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark skyā is just The Gilmmer? Maybe artists are trying to portray their LO around the time of The Glimmer or just after The Glimmer, and thatās why a lot of art shows idealised representations of men/women?ā
My Glimmer(s) āsparkledā mostly quiet in LEs, itās like that electricity flicked on the tramās two external poles in the Movie āDoctor Zhivagoā. Itās like a neural switch in my head was literally silently flipped, vaguely or clearly. Then the feeling of ambivalence followed and stayed on for days or months. If able to encounter LO again soon, it would be somehow verified. This was the cases with LO #1, #4, a graduate student in literature LO# 4.3 and that lady-killer gay man LO #4.7. That electrified click in my head was āloudā and clear, and startled me inside immediately.
In the latest LE, I bumped into LO for the 2nd time without him noticing me, I paused for a few seconds wondering about my first vague Glimmer. Then it went away for 4 months (due to the summer break of 2017). On the 3rd time after he spotted my sideline, revealing glancing at him in the hallway, smiled back, and then eagerly introduced himself to me a couple of hours later in the lounge, the 4 month old glimmer was verified ā my face blushed helplesslyā¦.
āSparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark skyā were my reveries, independent from the reality and LOsā realistic reactions. As I mentioned before, due to my traumatic experiences in that weekcare, I must have unconsciously developed imaginative ability, just ānaturallyā inventing non-existent magics. Without much realistic expectations from the unavailable LO, āsparkling light that sweeps and shines across the dark skyā was mostly on for 4 years, with the surrogate-parental Phantom accompanying me in the head ā everything followed, in reacting to the original source of cptsd.
āIām not really praising the bright side of limerence ā not intentionally, anyway. Iām just describing the early stages of still-unconscious physical attraction that someone might conceivably feel.ā
I only subconsciously sensed that physical attraction was there in each of my LE, most of LOs were gorgeous (with the exception of LO# 3, #6, and #4.5). But I almost never consciously felt sexually aroused while physically encountering them; arousal mostly occurred in the reveries. To me, anything imagined is ānaturallyā more fascinating and powerful than reality. X-rated videos or photos, aside from erotic paintings or drawings like in āEroticaā, boarded me to death; they leave no room for imaginative allures.
āI donāt want to rekindle limerence in anyone ā certainly not in anyone who hasnāt found the experience pleasant overall. ā
Again Dear Bro, itās not up to your intentions, but what the reader perceives in their head through your creative verbal lens.
āI think freedom from limerence may entail acknowledging certain people have great sexual allure, and thatās lovely, but it doesnāt mean theyāre destined to become oneās partner.ā
Absolutely true! Iāll go further that if that sexual allure is possessed by limerents, it will most likely go away (my marriage); non-limerents may appreciate it better. I feel lucky that such sexual allures, even unattainable, ever existed in my life for a period of time, short or long. For some people, no LO ever landed in their domainā¦
āI think one has to learn to appreciate beauty without wanting to possess beauty. (If one tries to possess beauty, one usually destroys beauty, or destroys oneās ability to enjoy beauty).ā
Thatās one of essential teachings of Tibetan Buddhism ā just appreciate what it is out there without further desire to own, unless they accidentally drop into your plate. Once a desired being possessed, the desire for it ALWAYS disappear ā I get bored in 3 days with anything I purchased (not made or grown by my own hands or mind) and felt the puzzling depression on the commencement afternoon before I took off my graduation gown (after walking to the ceremony stage 3 times for writing prizes). My mind went, āNow, whatās the next?ā
“Desire makes everything blossom; possession makes everything wither and fade.” – Proust
“There must be something inaccessible in what we love, something to pursue; we love only what we do not possess…” ā Proust
āNow that Iāve lost most of my sexual allure, I seem to be able to admire sexual allure in others without really fantasising about a relationship. ā
How do you know about the loss? Beauty or sexual allure is on a beholderās eyes! What you see in yourself and what others see in you could be as different as Mars from Venus. Those Somatic narcissists may think they have a fabulous, alluring appearance and physique, but they could appear quite common or even obnoxious to anti-narcissism eyes.
āItās a more neutral admiration. Sort of like: āOh, So-and-so is nice-looking. Good for So-and-so!ā
Iāve always had little idea about what the word āniceā means when used to describe either peopleās appearance and personality. A lot of Easterners are āafraidā of or uncomfortable about Western physical features, simply due to large differences. I have a crooked šļø. My Unconscious has more āblizzardā visions! šµāš«
āOthers may disagree with me, but thereās a real freedom in not being an active player anymore in the mating game. Observer status is kind of fun. ā
Understandable! But I would rather be an observer without closing any door for any unknowns ā my definition of āopen-mindedness.ā Cliche: Never say āneverā!
Life can be fun, adventurous, and colorful when one does not hammer nails onto any boxā¦ including that Pandora Box, which I am not afraid but helplessly curious, with my limited, progressing Stoic and Buddhistic shieldā¦ š”ļø
Speaking with you and posting here somehow make me more settled inside and outsideā¦ I think itās because I learn more about myself, all my demons from withinā¦. Itās really like taking Jungās individuation journey with audience, more powerful than taking it in solitude. šš»
Mika,
Aspies always say what they mean and mean what they say, sometimes their frankness could embarrass or anger one. So take Sammyās compliment to heart.
Your insight of the crux of appreciating beauty in limerence/LOs is enlightening, a wise recognization or reminder to all of us here.
Now, the danger to me is that I see my LO as a cake now (although with an aging spot on his face, and a small balding spot on his hairline), š° no longer a surrogate parent for a self-therapyā¦ what shall I do with a piece of alluring cake nearby? š
Well, Snowphoenix,
Since I stopped eating sugar for a while since yesterday, my advice would be, throw the cake into the trash or offer it to somebody else, itās definitely not good for your health and will lift your mood only for a few moments;)
@Mila,
Your advice is taken! Since the ācakeā does not belong to me but his SO, his pet LO, and maybe more, Iāll walk around it, apprenticing its beauty (with a flare of sadness due to his recent misfortune) in distanceā¦
Once upon a time, I was bingeing on mint chocolate chip icecream during LE with a long-distanced, fatherly like, but playboy LO #4.5, Iād eat a whole jar of it in the evening and then vomit it out immediately, that was the level of my limerence pains. Then, a month later, I went to 10-day silent Vipassana Retreat for the first time, and never had any bingeing on anything ever since. Silent meditation is so powerful to meā¦
Stay on with your sugar-free regime! šŖOr use Honey or your favorite fruits to substitute if you have to. Youāll feel so much mental clarity and lightness in limbs even after just a weekā¦ āš»
@Mila.
“Donāt make fun of meš”
I’m not making fun of you. But maybe I am projecting something onto you? š
Your style of writing strikes me as refined, elegant. There’s a kind of “classiness” to it. You clearly have strong feelings, but you never stray into “crassness”.
I feel that in my own writing, sometimes a bit of “crassness” creeps in. And I would like to master the more refined style you display.
I also like how you relate “beauty” to more than just looks. I was waiting for someone to make that connection, and you did. š
Are you sure you’re an ESL speaker? š If you were enrolled in an Australian high school, and write the way you write, we’re put you in the extension English stream i.e. the stream for people with advanced English skills. Correct grammar isn’t everything. š
Sammy,
Thanks for the flattering words, but I know my shortcomings:)
Itās actually funny because I studied for one year in London, and my English flatmate and friends told me that my pronunciation was classy. I think they just liked that it was more British than American.
In the meantime I read sometimes in English but speak very little, so my pronunciation has gone to seed, I guess.
But I appreciate a good turn of phrase like yours or other limerents here. Everyone has a different way and style, I enjoy that very much, itās so interesting.
Mika,
Lucky you easy to obtain a British tone, my English accent would crash a camelās hemp!
Thatās why I like playing English words in scrabblingā¦ otherwise, Sammy would give up any attempts to edit whatever I have to utter, but slightly raises his eyebrows with Buddhistic smiles, and stealthy swallows helpless sighsā¦. š
I love my wife! I love her! She is the love of my life! And I am an idiot. But appreciative of her grace and love. Iād be a disaster without her. I love my wife!!!!
LOL Adam, LOL š
Good for you Adam!
Would I turn it off if I could?
Yes, yes I would.
BUTTTTTT
It certainly was a colorful time in my life.
And it drove me to therapy.
I lived most of my life in beige, not happy, not sad, just going through the motions. AI like.
Limerence kicked the crap out of that! lol
I agree with a lot of you that it stems back to unmet childhood needs
With the help of my therapist we peeled away at it and as soon as we got to the subject of my parents, the bricks started to fall.
My Co-dependent Mother and my Narcissistic Father. BINGO!
So ,no surprise that both of my LO’s were Narcissists, especially the last one and I’m not throwing that term around lightly.
The push/pull, hot/cold, no reciprocation for any achievements I ever accomplished. Silently begging for attention. The whole nine yards of it.
I remember the last thing my therapist said last week: “We are going to start working on you beginning to love yourself and we will go from there”
As I was walking to my vehicle after, I thought to myself “What kind of sorcery is she talking about? Pfffttt, Love Myself? Now that’s a concept!
I have a LOT of work to do.
You WILL reach the state of loving YOURSELF and not hating/being mad at others, including those who have hurt you (un)intentionally, no matter what kind of hells you have been throughā¦ seemingly not as hellish as mine, based on what Iāve learned from your posts.
Please recognize that the deep root of Narcissism is INSECURITY of (un)aware Narcissists (usually from their troublesome childhood), not an innate evil to HURT others. They try to control and manipulate others in order to fill that bottomless hole of the insecurity, but always in! I know this because my Mother was a hard-core Narc, and Dad had some āamicableā narcissistic traits, as well as myself. Everyone has some in order to survive or thrive in this world.
Itās going to take a lot of efforts to change habitual mentality from the mainstream cultural scriptsā¦.
Yes, I have been educating myself on Narcissism, wow, my father to a tee.
He had a terrible childhood I do know.
I take after my mother, actually all of us have.
Walking on egg shells around my father as not to upset him.
You know, I have lived my life like this really not knowing any better.
The old saying “It is what it is” comes to mind.
This where I have to thank Limerence.
If I had never “fallen in” nothing would have changed!
As painful as it is, it woke me up from my mundane existence.
I am grateful, I’m full of anxiety and the Limerence lows right now, but still grateful.
Cultural Scripts, they shape us unconsciously.
That’s a key component in my midlife languishing perhaps.
It’s the water we all swim in, until we decide to get out.
Thank You Snowpheonix and everyone else here.
What a group!
Youāre welcome, Anna.
Many of Easterners firmly believe that there is blessing in disguise in everything, even in black matters or seemingly dire misfortunes, only if we look at them from different angles, or wait out patiently to see what will happen in a longer run.
Your experience has proved such a belief ā a perhaps life-time positive change out of a limerence episode! Once awake, youāll never go back to the previous passive existence; a lot of your potentials will be recognized through therapies and self-reflections, and itās never too late to dig them out.
Human spirit never ages if we nourish it consciously and organically, do not let any cultural cliche-scripts āmind-controlā our spirit that can always sprout and bloom in all seasonsā¦
Best wishes!
Correction: āalways in vainā
RANT!!!
I may be rethinking my stance on not turning off Limerence.
I was doing quite well, therapy was going good and I thought I was beginning to finally get a handle on all of this crazy nonsense.
I was making an effort to get out more with friends and a couple of weeks ago I met someone and we really hit off.
We talked most of the evening and laughed on how much we had in common.
I gave him my number and we texted almost daily usually multiple times.
I promised myself that I would NOT turn him into LO#3!
He seemed to be as much into me as I was with him.
I was feeling really good about the whole thing.
And I was being super careful not to come across as desperate LOL
Yeah, you hear a BUT coming right?
You’re right.
Last Thursday we were talking and he wanted to get together on the weekend and I said that would be great.
That’s the last I heard from him, I got ghosted.
Not a peep, not an explanation, nothing.
I refuse to reach out to him because well, quite frankly I have dealt with that before. I will not succumb to going back and acting like I did with LO#1 and LO#2
Been there done that.
No more rabbit hole for me!
Anyway, as good as I was feeling about myself before quickly deteriorated.
All of the bad crappy feelings of not being good enough, smart enough, good looking enough resurfaced. I spiraled.
Sorry for who ever reads this but I had to get it off my chest.
It’s Tuesday evening now and as I sit here and reflect, I have come to the realization that (I knew this before) it doesn’t MATTER who is giving us the attention, the validation etc…
Our LO’s are just that, OBJECTS that are giving us what we so desperately crave.
What is missing in us. (me anyway)
That we are not invisible, that we are desirable and we are worthy of love.
So, in a nutshell I still have quite the journey ahead of me.
I will get there.
Another lesson learned to take it one day at a time and not to judge my self-worth in anyone else.
@Anna,
Iām listening to you here!
I think youāre doing very WELL in terms of handling this āmysteriousā guy, watching and understanding what has been going on inside you.
Thatās been a fruit Iāve take from LwL, becoming more aware and watchful of my mind and heartā¦ once we pause and analyze them, we would find some cautions and answers for ourselves, which in itself is a progress.
Yes, take it one day at a time, and gradually learn how NOT to judge ourselves, especially through someone elseās subjective lens. What we see ourselves in our mind is ALWAYS more valid and important than what is going on in othersā mind about us ā anyway, one could never truly knowā¦
š«
Thanks Snow! I appreciate you!
Oddly enough after I posted this I got a text from “mystery man”
He said “oh hi, I’m sorry but I forgot I was teaching a martial arts class this weekend”
I didn’t respond
Bye, Bye Mystery Man
I’m going to self the dating scene for a while.
*shelve
@Snowphoenix.
I wrote a variation on your poem for you:
Snowphoenix’s original:
The Closing Door ā
I see the door firmly closing
with no open window in slight
I see the coffin in waiting
to be lowered to a rightful slot
perhaps after a silent funeral
in the given, definitive hour?
Under the misty, gray sky
butterflies hide in frozen cocoons.
there is little feasible, fluffy soil
for a limerence burial
Do I carry the cremation like a cross
rambling in the virtual LwL?
Sammy’s arrangement:
The Closing Door
I see the door at last closing
With no open windows in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: “I knew him only slight…”
Beneath an unforgiving sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The frozen soil is resistant
To the gravediggers’ giant spoons.
The cross I wear I wear for him –
My phantom lover, gone too soon!
Sammy,
Your version is so much more poetic and sadly beautifulā¦ right now making me in tears and putting a piece of lead on my chestā¦
Only a questions: why āunforgiving skyā? What is unforgiven or unforgivable?
It should be only one āI wearā, isnāt it?
@Snowphoenix.
Unforgiving = not the best word choice maybe? I was trying to think of a way to suggest weather that is bad, overcast, gloomy, wintry, melancholy, etc. Something along the lines of “bleak” or “cruel” or “unfriendly to humans”? But maybe you can think of a better word to illustrate your desired meaning?
“It should be only one āI wearā, isnāt it?”
No, in English, saying “I wear” twice is correct here in terms of meaning. The first “I wear” indicates which cross is being talked about i.e. the one around neck. The second “I wear” explains why this cross is being worn.
Also, the repetition creates a nice musical effect that is pleasing to the ear of native English speakers. We hear a nice dramatic quality, and the poem becomes fun to say aloud. The second “I wear” heightens emotion in addition to being correct in terms of meaning. Finally, the structure of your poem requires eight metrical feet per line. If you delete one “I wear”, you’d need to come up with two extra syllables. š
I’ll convert the second stanza into second person pronouns (she/her) and change a few words, to see if the meaning gets any clearer for you:
Beneath a melancholy sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter ground is resistant
To the gravediggers’ giant spoons.
The cross she wears she wears for him –
Her phantom lover, gone too soon!
The image I get is of a woman standing in a cemetery. She’s waiting for some burial to take place, but the burial hasn’t occurred yet. The weather is unsuitable for a funeral. No burial can take place and no rebirth can take place either. The man being buried isn’t a real man. The man being buried is a man she’s only loved in her imagination i.e. a dream, a phantom.
Did you like how I turned spades/shovels into “giant spoons” to maintain the rhyme scheme? I thought that was a little stroke of genius myself. š
Sammy,
I like the meaning of your version conveys, somewhat different than my original one.
Last night, I thought āunforgiving skyā means Karma we talked about previously, and āthe crossā was Sorrow I felt for LO in my nap ā seeing his big eyes tearing and then full of tears in a short catnip, right after I walked along a river with a long bridge covered by thick, gray, dreamy mist. It was unbelievably poetic. (Too bad I canāt post that image here)
Yes, I got the meaning of āI wearā twice as soon as I woke up just now, it definitely sounds musical and dramatic, and actually puts more somber weight on the emotion, in my end.
The interesting part is that originally I intended to ācarry a crossā for the dying limerence, and we know there cannot be effective, āofficialā closure for limerence, thus āsilent funeral.ā But your version is also correct, since a phantom cannot be buried, either. So there are two entities here that seem unable to go āformallyā.
I wasnāt thinking about the structure at all (forgot what I had learned in college), when trying to answer your original questions, āAre you in pain?ā The shorts lines just sprang out of my mind fairly fast.
Now, your version laments an imminent death of the phantom my mind created (might be always there since childhood, as Nisor suggested) and projected unto LO, not a death of limerence itself, which surely needs to take place. But should a creative source, flowing out of an idealized phantom (consciously a surrogate parent, subconsciously a lover), a part of oneās Self, die along with one LE?
I was immediately touched in tears by your phrase āPhantom loverā (consciously seen as a father figure), which captures the beauty of feelings Mila has talked about. All these years, I have feared most the death of that hard-to-come feeling of āloveā, even forever unrequited by a nonexistent phantom. Unable to eat one cake ā the desired, should one kill the love ā the desire? (We previously discussed about in ālimerenceā with our own desire, which would undoubtedly lead one to deep blues)
āshe/herā is definitely better than āIā in a āformalā poem, not just a poetic Q&A. I loved the image of āgiant spoonā! Here is just one gravedigger.
Iāve change a couple of words, please see if metrics are working.
The Closing Door
I see the door at last closing
With no open windows in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: āI knew him in envisionā¦ā
Beneath a melancholy sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil is resisting
the gravediggerās giant spoon.
The cross she wears she wears for him ā
Her phantom lover, gone too soon!
Typo: Unable to eat one cake ā the desired, should one kill the love for cakes ā the desire? (We previously discussed about in ālimerenceā with our own desire, the death of which would undoubtedly lead one either to a deep melancholy or a colorless existence)
How about āI knew him in reverie ā ā
Sammy,
Another thought:
If a closure with a realistic LO is futile, then an internal closure with a phantom of LO is feasible, if one wish to kill a part of oneself, isnāt it?
But Iām so unwilling to END/BURY anythingā¦.
@Snowphoenix.
I see the door at last closing
With no open windows in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: āI knew him in visionsā¦ā
Beneath a melancholy sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil is resisting
The gravediggerās giant spoon.
The cross she wears she wears for him ā
Her phantom lover, gone too soon!
Looks great. I would only change “in envisions” to “in visions” because I think that’s what you wanted to say. And I capitalised a capital at the start of a line you didn’t have capitalised.
It’s your poem, Snow, so you should feel free to play around with it to get it to say whatever you want. The image of someone carrying a cross is just as striking as the image of someone wearing a cross. For some reason, my mind just imagined the pedant on a necklace.
Sammy,
Yes, āin visionā, or āin imaginationā is what I meant to say.
I like what the poem captures nowā¦ it expresses an unwillingness to bury even a phantom ā a part of one Self. The speaker resists letting go off anything, even intangible, even if sheās āentrappedā. If a phantom can somewhat āfreeā oneās mind from the ābleakā reality, why bury him?
Now can you help me: I still do not have a clear grasp of the meanings of ācarry/wear a crossā for someone or something. Is it to bear āsinsā of deceased, or pray for their next life in heaven or wherever, or something more? The image of Jesus carrying that giant cross always feels very heavy to me, after seeing it in many movies, so I use it to describe my heavy heartā¦.
Thanks for a million, Bro! š¤š«
Yes, āin visionā, or āin imaginationā is what I meant to say.
@Snowphoenix.
In English, “to carry a cross” means to bear a burden. The image does indeed come from the story of Jesus. In the Gospels, Jesus found his own cross too heavy to bear (on the way to the crucifixion) and so another man – Simon of Cyrene – stepped in to transport Jesus’ cross.
In everyday use, English speakers would probably adapt the phrase in various ways. E.g., “it was a heavy cross to bear” i.e. a big burden, a heavy responsibility. Or: “We all have our crosses to bear” e.g. everyone has sources of hardship and/or potential suffering in life. One might say the latter to commiserate with someone going through a hard time.
If something is a “cross to bear”, it is a source of pain to the person, but also maybe a source of pain that can’t be avoided. E.g., “limerence is a cross I bear”; “a passion for donuts is a cross I bear”. (The term can be used seriously or lightly, as seen above).
“Wearing a cross” is different to “bearing a cross”. When I had the woman in your poem wearing a cross, the cross was more like a gift or a souvenir – something the woman wears on purpose to remember her beloved, a memento of the person missed/absent.
To “carry a cross” regarding someone is also different from “carrying a torch” for someone. “To carry a torch” for someone is to be in love without reciprocation. A “torch song” is a song about unrequited love. (Also can be a song about lost love). Judy Garland was famous for singing torch songs.
Something can “weigh heavy on a person’s heart” too. This means something has caused a person a lot of intense emotions often of a darker hue e.g. sadness, regret.
Sammy,
Thank you for an invaluable English lesson!
Watch out what questions you ask me, if always in the nature of picking up pebbles, chasing butterflies, busking in shimmering silver light, carrying pains, etc, youāll end up spending your previous time in giving me free lessons in poetry, linguistics, literature, religious studies, and other cultural aspects, and making me spinning under my OCD, helplessly dwelling on words or images for days and night with no endā¦. Still, Itās my GAIN, despite other stuff around me dim or recedeā¦
How do you pay a āghostā who does walk somewhere on earth and talk in virtual LwL, whose sparkles you canāt turn off with the tablet switch?
By the way, I like the meaning of ācarrying a touchā, which no one else has ever told me. Itās a luring image to use, but not appropriate in my tiny verse, where āwear a crossā is more accurate than ācarry a crossā. The Phantom is ideal, mighty Apollo infused with Dionysius, not a burden but a crystal to carry, to have him shine in my knuckleheadā¦.š¤Æ
Typo: your precious timeā¦
Snow,
This is an example of a “torch song.”
I have a slightly different definition than Sammy. My definition also failed loves that you won’t let go of.
“My Immortal” – Evanescence (2003)
https://youtu.be/5anLPw0Efmo?feature=shared
@Limerent Emeritus.
“This is an example of a ātorch song.ā
I have a slightly different definition than Sammy. My definition also failed loves that you wonāt let go of.”
Thanks for the link, and for sharing what really could be considered I guess a twenty-first century torch song. š
@LE
Thank you for the link to the song, I like the melody and lyric, which captures a lost love and its pain so well! However, it could hardly happen to a Semi Stoic/semi-Buddhist even still in limerence, like myself. That excruciating sentimentality is not doing good for any party. Oneās mentality can be changed to benefit oneās overall wellbeing, without which how could one WISELY love oneself and another and make that love last longer?
Like one of Sammy posts says: love lost, breakups, betrayals, limerence, etcā¦ are a norm of life, it IS the default of life. Why so many people just canāt recognize and accept them, with an equilibrium, and then suffer unnecessary, unwanted pains?
However, artistically capturing sadness and pains through arts, songs, poems, epic stories can be profoundly touching and (sadly) beautiful, evoking resonance, empathy, and compassionate sighs in the audience and readers.
By the way, I canāt stand any hair on a manās face in any part of it, no matter how gorgeous he is thought by majority. I have no clear reasons for it, just tends to be turned off subconsciouslyā¦. šµāš«
Hi all, sorry to jump in but L.Emeritus referencing the band ‘Evanescence’ reminds me of their massive hit ‘bring me to life’. It’s such a great song and also so attuned to limerence ‘wake me up inside’ , that supersonic LE experience of suddenly everything being heightened in technicolor. Do take a listen and turn the volume up loud !
https://youtu.be/UVob6MQQRqk?feature=shared
Btw I like “unforgiving sky” in the poem. I get it, and the “cross to bear” š
@Imho
A different version of the poem, taking on board your suggestions:
She sees the door at last closing
With no open window in sight.
She sees a funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night,
The mourners saying their goodbyes.
She knew him only in visions…
Beneath unforgiving sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil scarcely disturbed
By the gravediggerās giant spoon.
For him a cross she’ll always bear ā
Her phantom lover, gone too soon!
@Imho,
Please never hesitate to join in any conversations, thatās what this forum is for ā an open, safe, caring pool for all kinds of minds to swim to and fro, sharing, discussing, debating, learning from each other, and watching over sinking spiritsā¦. Isnāt it?
I love the melody of the song you posted! Itās the āloudestā limerence screaming Iāve ever āheardā ā almost hysterical! I think literally ONLY a Christ LO could SAVE the limerent speaker in this song. If I were her so-so LO, Iād drive the Millennium Falcon to run; if I were a good LO, Iād say to her, āIāve waken you up, now live and thrive!ā; if I were a mean LO, Iād somehow put her back to sleep, so she would not clutch her hands on my legsā¦ š¦µ
Is āOnly one can save Oneselfā really an alien idea in the West? To be suddenly struck or āawakenā by LO is human and universal, but a ādyingā need to be so desperately āsaved?ā š„¶ LO is just an ordinary human being, maintaining his/her own psychological health is already a big ongoing load, now a clingy or āclutchingā limerent? šš»āāļø š
I would be very careful to use word āunforgivingā in any poem, in which form every word weights a ton and metaphorically represent or hint something else deeper. Who and what is āunforgivenā, why? What āsinsā are involved? Who is doing ā(un)forgivingā? Gods from either the East or the West, or Karma from the East? Even in a long prose and poem, the word, āunforgivingā speaks loud about the speakerās personalityā¦
Sammy: Is the concept of āredemptionā in Christianity same as forgiveness of āsinnersā, who would get more chances for a rebirth? If so, why a Hell āexistsā out there, for whom to go? In Buddhistic traditions, all earthly souls are āsufferingā 7 emotions and 6 desires tied up on a Wheel of Life, cycling through life and death, round and round, in the edgeless sea of desiresā¦ In laymen, those 7 emotions and 6 desires are all empathized and embraced without ānegativeā ones being heavily condemned, since EVERYONE has them, no matter how much they might be in denial.
Imho: Iām very curious to know, if you use the image ācross to bearā in my poem, then for whom (limerent? LO? Phantom of LO?) or for what (limerence, unrequited love?) this cross is borne (I assume by the speaker)?
Sammy,
āA different version of the poem, taking on board your suggestions:ā
Are you kidding meāļø š Thatās NOT my phantom, he must be someone elseās! Heās so unique belonging only to the speaker, why so many mourners present? Thatās a Common funeral! š„ŗ
Despite the pain of unobtainable, the idealized Phantom has given the speaker a lot of pleasures, inspirations to create, to lit up fire, to sparklingly soar across the dark sky, why would the speaker bear a cross for him?
Give the poem to some other limerents here, who would better fit inā¦.
@Snowphoenix.
Even limerents can’t fully understand what goes on in the heads of other limerents. š¤
Limerence is universal in the sense that all infatuations have certain features in common, such as the characteristics Tennov herself listed, but limerence is also an intensely personal experience, as you point out. A lot of details and desires and fantasies remain forever unique to the individual. Some people might yearn for rebirth. Some people might want to dwell a little longer on the past, or grieve for something/someone they believe they lost. And so on. š
Limerents can share ideas on limerence, and that sharing can be very fruitful, but I don’t think limerents can ever offer each other perfect empathy – only approximate empathy. š
Sammy,
Agree! Youāre very insightful here! Each of us is so unique, while sharing some common humanities, that our limerence experiences can hugely differ in details ā thoughts, sentiments, behaviors, etc.
The reason Iāve been hesitating between burying an old and rebirthing a new is that one has to be very clear what needs to go and whatās need to stay. Do you want to bury that creative and enlivening force which has actually existed all along within limerents but lay dormant, then incidentally awakened by LO/LE??
I thought I created a Phantom after glimmered at LO, and one year later, I already realized the former differed from the latter. Later I saw that the Phantom is growing on its own way, separating himself from LO, slowly in the first 4 years and then fast in the later 2 years. In this vision, the Phantom needs to be buried when LE ends, since he is a foreign object created out of a particular LO/LE.
But Nisor pointed out that this Phantom of mine was created in childhood out of my desperate needs for the unconditional parent love. Later in life, I projected this Phantom onto every LO I encountered ā I worked on this with my therapists. So when LE was over, I, the owner, took the Phantom ā a part of my old self, back to me. How could I bury a part of myself that is so positively powerful?
Iāll show you again a poem I wrote in last March, when I 100% severed the tie between the Phantom and LO, and let Phantom return to his owner.
Return to His Homeland
In the dreamy dawn of March 15th
A goddess (Athena?) severed the last 1% of the tie
binding the phantom and his human incarnation
by āincriminatingā the latter
in front of his sulking teenage sonā¦.
It finally yanked his birth-giver
out of her girly willful fantasies
in a whirling rainstorm
threw her into a freezing, turbulent sea
shocked, sunk, surfaced,
squinting at the wavy shore
of melancholy adulthoodā¦.
A white, barren gallery room after
an invisible sweeping fire
in the night dream of 9/20/2018
began the human shape of the phantom.
With his originatorās visual and verbal sketching,
unsketching, repainting
in her uninhibited slumbers,
longing daydreams, and
keen observation of the cruel realities
he has stretched out of his human skin
dangling at an edge of the canvasā¦.
Half a decade later,
after the shattered hope to reconnect
the fleshy father and godly āsonā
Athena āat a turning in the [creatorās] roadā
cut loose the last tying thread
returning the phantom to his homeland ā
her imaginative, luminous sphere,
refocusing her gaze at the earthly realm of
the body, mind and spirit violently shaken
by devine buzzes and battles,
with her spirited, shapeless phantom standing byā¦.
March 15-17, 2023
St. Patrick Day
****
It is not easy to read, jammed with so many incidents, images, dreams that are familiar only to the speaker, creator, originator, and LO. The reader may get confused, but I think you can figure out.
The poem was sent to LO first, right before I ācut the tieā in person (breaking up with anyone in email or text is cruel), one day before my actual birthday ā all my life I chose dates very carefully for small or big meaningful events, because their symbolical significance. I never understood why I was always fussy on this, superstitious?
Anyway, feel free to edit!
Snow hi,
The poem is beautiful, and Sammy added the right corrections, but the meaning stays the same. Congratulations.
Now, the nitty gritty is, are you going ahead for the killing of the phantom? I see some hesitation hereā¦ since you say: āā¦ it expresses an unwillingness to bury even a phantom – a part of one Self.ā Also you say : ā But Iām so unwilling to END/Bury anythingā¦ā
Are you ready for it or are you only preparing yourself for it?
Again you mentioned:
āIf a closure with a realistic LO is futile, then an internal closure with a phantom of LO is feasible, if one wish to kill a part of oneself, isnāt it?ā
Yay Snow, youāre a difficult ladyā¦ ha!
I would say, if your phantom was created by you, ( wasnāt innate) then yes, you can more or less āattempt ā to kill it. I say āattempt ā ( like an assassination attempt) because these emotions have a way to survive , have a life of their own, sometimes, like a hydraā¦
But if one succeeds on the ā killing ā of both LO attachment and the phantom, then our innate creative gifts/talents will flow free as now the old us is buried along with them both, and the new us is re born, the innate , inward person is being renewed; things are truer, they always existed within you! Youāre the creation youāre always meant to be from the very start; old things has passed away. All things become new! One would look at the world with a new set of lenses! One has become reconciled to the āinner youā, to your now free mind; one becomes whole again as one were meant to be from the very start of life! It was others that stunted all that we were meant to be when we first saw the light. One was restricted by oneās own emotions and afflictions ; The gifts/talents were always there, buried in the subconscious , but once set free of all past emotions theyāll come out shining as never before!
Limerence may be the muse of inspiration for many limerents, but this is not true of all limerents nor of non limerents. There are many children with great talents/gifts/ creativity , and had not the experience of limerence. For we were fearfully and wonderfully made from the beginning of time. It is that essence we are trying to regain! Thatās why we are not supposed to be āyokedā to someone else for inspiration. Itās within ourselves!!!
I feel more creative when at peace with my mind, free of limerence; limerence is too much encompassing, too much time and energy wasted in ruminations and too debilitating, for any creativity . We have the example of the era of Europeās period of Renascence , the countries which were in turmoil with wars, like Greece and others , did not participate in the Renascence, there was no peace of mind for them, were too busy with surviving. So is with limerence for some limerents, too busy developing tactics on how to approach the LO, to the point some limerents cannot produce at work or have to quit working. Each limerent is different ā¦
Like Socrates said: Know Thyself.
Not an easy taskā¦
We trying!
Have a nice rest. Peace to you. Hugs
Nisor,
Thank you for reading my post and respond with thorough thoughts.
āThe poem is beautiful, and Sammy added the right corrections, but the meaning stays the same. Congratulations.ā
I did not KILL anyone, just separated the Phantom with LO, since they are not the same entity. As you pointed out, I projected my aged phantom to every LO.
āNow, the nitty gritty is, are you going ahead for the killing of the phantom?ā
NO, Iām NOT going to KILL the phantom who has subconsciously accompanied me since the troubled childhood and brought me a hope in all dire situations! How could one kill oneās āsaverā phantom, like your personal god, when one feels a bit safer or maturer? That would be a huge ingratitude.
āAre you ready for it or are you only preparing yourself for it?ā
I am preparing NOT to kill but live with all ā the phantom, LO, and my lingering limerence in loving compassion. You and I are in two camps of Dr.Lās blog (turning off limerence or not), Iām on Pro side, because my mental shield allows me to cultivate acceptance, compassion and equalibrium for limerence, while striving to retain limerenceās inspirational, sparkling force to create and color a realistic āliving artā in my small life.
āIf a closure with a realistic LO is futile, then an internal closure with a phantom of LO is feasible, if one wish to kill a part of oneself, isnāt it?ā
Yay Snow, youāre a difficult ladyā¦ ha!ā
It maybe be feasible. But I WILL NOT DO IT! It has become a core of my own existence with or without a LO. I just did not realize it and projected it to every LO I encountered. Now, coming to and participating in LwL has opened up my inner šļø and finally, clearly see the Phantom healing and hope-retaining power. From another angle, arenāt we also a phantom to each other here in LwL? We āsoundlesslyā, formlessly talk here and listen to, while my phantom dialogues with me in my head and āprovidesā me answers, right or wrong, when I need it.
āI would say, if your phantom was created by you, ( wasnāt innate) then yes, you can more or less āattempt ā to kill it. I say āattempt ā ( like an assassination attempt) because these emotions have a way to survive , have a life of their own, sometimes, like a hydraā¦ā
Youāre right that the Phantom was not born innately with me, but created and shaped through all my hardships over years. Now, if he has less āuseā, then I should trash him like an old toy ā a safety blanket? Please allow me to ask a question, why the word ākillingā or āassassinationā appears so many times in a Christian? Didnāt your Jesus Christ bear all āsinsā of humanity through his cross? Full blown Buddhists do not kill, literally not even a cockroach in their walking path. Iām only strongly leaning on Buddhism, not an official buddhist.
āBut if one succeeds on the ā killing ā of both LO attachment and the phantom, then our innate creative gifts/talents will flow free as now the old us is buried along with them both, and the new us is re born, the innate , inward person is being renewed; things are truer, they always existed within you! ā
Again, please do not use the word ākillingā with me, which makes me angry. Can we just let whatever is supposed to die die naturally? Everything is impermanent, even if you want to hold onto them, like love, they will die or change colors over time or in an eye blink.
Our innate creative gifts? Weāre born a sling (this word?) blank piece of paper, nothing on it to flow out. Genes of gifts/talents need to be cultivated through learnings and trainings and sweat. What are truer always existing within me? Nothingness at birth and then the trauma experiences? I do not believe pre or after life, but I might have inherited some of my motherās trauma or limerence genes, sheās a Narc limerent, a worst combination.
āYouāre the creation youāre always meant to be from the very start; old things has passed away. All things become new! One would look at the world with a new set of lenses!ā
I cherish my progressing lenses, neither too old nor brand newā¦ Any wisdom comes from truly lived experiences, why ātrashā valuable mental and spiritual āsouvenirā?
āOne has become reconciled to the āinner youā, to your now free mind; one becomes whole again as one were meant to be from the very start of life!ā
As Sartre points out that a total free mind is very scary, there is huge responsibility comes with it, particularly for one who does not have any external god. But Sartre believes each day is new, and we are born everyday and renew us everyday, as if yesterday never happened existed. Iām not his follower on this point. One canāt wipe out yesterday and whatās already existed in oneās Unconscious, based on Jungās concept. Our dreams proves the power of the Unconscious. Look what your dream did to your limerence?
āIt was others that stunted all that we were meant to be when we first saw the light. ā
Hmmā¦ āothersā are to be blamed? Thatās a core difference between the West and East traditionsā¦.. The result is, based on my observation, a larger portion of Westerners suffer more in life (internally) in general than most of Easterners, love and limerence included, despite they appear much materialistically wealthier on surface. Insatiable desires for instant gratifications of all kinds here is unbelievable. Yet when they have obtained some of them, theyāre still unhappy and discontent.
āOne was restricted by oneās own emotions and afflictionsā
True. This is also an Eastern idea. So one needs to work to tame oneās internal demons, not just blame and haunt external scapegoat demons.
āThe gifts/talents were always there, buried in the subconscious , but once set free of all past emotions theyāll come out shining as never before!ā
Gifts/talents (a foundation of a building) would remain ānothingā, if not cultivated into art forms, I meant living art, not just those high arts in cultures.
āLimerence may be the muse of inspiration for many limerents, but this is not true of all limerents nor of non limerents.ā
Yes, limerence served as a muse for DrL, Sammy, me, and some others here. But your statement is very true!
āFor we were fearfully and wonderfully made from the beginning of time. It is that essence we are trying to regain! ā
Trying to āregainā the state of āfearfulā?
āThatās why we are not supposed to be āyokedā to someone else for inspiration. Itās within ourselves!!!ā
Well, I disagree with you here. All great artists of various kind has had some kind of form of muse ā mostly a beloved person, who has inspired that innate gifts and talents. Then artists use the inspiration to craft their Masterpieces. If without limerence, as Sammy points out, there would be just mediocre art works in this world. Remember DrL got his Ph.D to impress his LO.
In Imhoās posted song, that woman has āsleptā for a thousand year ā perhaps a sleeping beauty, until a pair of magnetic, piercing eyes waked her up. The problem is that speaker doesnāt know what to do with her awakened freedom on her own, but madly clinging on LO to continue providing surviving āfoodā for her, thatās just maddening! Even as a limerent, Iād run away from her!
āI feel more creative when at peace with my mind, free of limerence; limerence is too much encompassing, too much time and energy wasted in ruminations and too debilitating, for any creativity .ā
Every limerent is in limerence in his/her own unique waysā¦ some of which are just magnificent throughout history! Just look at Da da Vinci!
āWe have the example of the era of Europeās period of Renascence , the countries which were in turmoil with wars, like Greece and others , did not participate in the Renascence, there was no peace of mind for them, were too busy with surviving.ā
Peaceful Switzerland only created cuckoo clocks.
āSo is with limerence for some limerents, too busy developing tactics on how to approach the LO, to the point some limerents cannot produce at work or have to quit working. Each limerent is different ā¦ā
Thatās my point. Not all limerents are paralleled by limerence, especially after theyāve learned about this largely unknown phenomenon. With the knowledge, awareness, and skills to manage, your aforementioned limerents would not suffer that much. I feel deeply sorry for them, since I never fully went in that deepā¦ maybe Iām just a selfish, heartless limerent longing for a never-existed, ideal parent.
āLike Socrates said: Know Thyself.ā
This is the biggest gain after coming to LwL, Iāve learned soooooo much more about myself and my past experiences of all kindsā¦. Iām grateful.
Nisor, Iām willing to consciously WALK into another Limerence if I can, and I now believe that I can rein it without suffering my previous limerence pains out of ignorance. Iām more hopeful with LwL caring āphantomsā standing nearby.
Hugs!
Typo: āNot all limerents are paralyzed by limerenceā.
Change: āIām willing to consciously WALK into another limerence-like Love if I canā¦.ā
Hi Snow,
Sorry you got upset with the word (you know which), it was intended in a raw, figurative sense. I guess Iām hung up on Oscar Wildeās quote, of Everyman killing what they love mostā¦
I myself donāt feel good swatting a fly. I m just referring to emotions. ( Thereās a song titled: Killing me softly , with your song, very sweet ).
I sometimes feel like a murderer, I did away (k#%%^*d) the love of my life for lack of patience, understanding, compassion, you name it, itās a grief, sorrow I carry as if someone has died. Thatās why I say, one never knows when these emotions will show up in the future to haunt oneās mind and disturb oneās heart. In a dream? Yes, mine was ādelivered ā in a dream!
If I were young again and single, you bet yah I would give limerence- love a chance to enter my life again, with the experience gained with limerence, surely it would be easier to handle any inconvenienceā¦ ? Iām not so sure, life is so full of unknowns. One cannot predict anything. But any experience counts, it is in oneās favor . Itās got to be better this time around!
Have a good day, hugs
Nisor,
Iām no longer upset now, just profoundly sad, although Iām waiting to receive an old limerent-friend in a few minutes, to whom, I was his first crush, LO, when he was 17 (I 23). I liked the innocent boy but no glimmer. His parents told me that he had gone āno eating and sleepingā for days after first met me. After my divorce, he tried to date me in long distance, but I still had no glimmer. For years, he has managed to keep in loose touch with me and always visited me when he was in town on business trip. Heās an introvert, never expressed his emotions directly to me, by which I was always touched.
If the word āk*ā is used once in a song or poem figuratively, thatās okay. But if it is used repeatedly in an ADVICE, even for abstract/intangible matters like emotions, then its sound gets amplified in my head. It felt like someone shouting at me with a reiteration of, āK* this, K*thatā¦.ā You remember that last October I got upset about Sammy chant-like passages? – thatās how my kindergarten teachers criticized me in front of a group of kids ā triggered one of my traumas. Ever since Iām terrible with cheer-leading kind of āaffirmationā talksā¦
āone never knows when these emotions will show up in the future to haunt oneās mind and disturb oneās heart. In a dream?ā
āI think, therefore I amā. I feel, therefore I am! Colorful emotions are our internal assets, which makes us feel uniquely alive; they come and go anyway stored in our Unconscious. I do not want to repress them down; every time I did, they erupted like a volcano later. Iād strive to live with negative ones, anger and sadness, in equilibrium and strengthen positive ones, like compassion and love, even unrequited.
ālife is so full of unknowns. One cannot predict anything. ā
Thatās an exciting and adventurous part of human life! As Alexander Pope says, āIf I know whatās going to happen tomorrow, Iāll hang myself today.ā
āBut any experience counts, it is in oneās favor . Itās got to be better this time around!ā
Yes, experiences of particular adversary natures bring us wisdom. Iām positive that if Iām lucky enough to glimmer at an available LO again, my handling of a limerence-love would be much maturer.
Many hugs! š«
āthe unforgiving skyā means that LOās misfortune?
Unforgiving may also mean, harsh, hostile, implacable, not showing mercy, grim, inexorable etc.
I know. A word to be avoided in poetry.
@Nisor.
Well done, Nisor! I really like the sound of “implacable”. That probably was the word my mind was searching for all along… š
I would not associate āimplacable skyā with a āpunishingā Karmaā¦.
Imho,
LOL.
Mila,
I actually like dark chocolate. It’s one of the few “healthy” foods I enjoy. I can do up to about 90%. Much beyond that, it’s too bitter.
Marcia,
Iāve got a 92% that tastes really good! I found that there is a big difference between brands.
Mila,
What brand do you like that is 92%?
I do like testing people. Askng them to taste the 90%, and if they grimace as they eat it, I say, “You can’t HANDLE dark chocolate!” š
Marcia,
haha, selection of the weak!
I like the chocolate of Vivani, itās a German organic brand, available in Europe but not sure where you are based.
I donāt recommend the 90%of Lindt, it tastes vile.
Mila,
“I donāt recommend the 90%of Lindt, it tastes vile”
I agree. It’s awful.
And I’ve tried the Lily’s dark chocolate chips that are sweetened with Keto sweeteners like Stevia. It’s a lower percentage of dark chocolate so I thought it would taste sweeter, but it has a weird taste. (Although I don’t dislike Stevia in, for example, iced tea. But in chocolate, it tastes weird.)
Just learned a new word! Much better than āunforgivingā.
Good morning beautiful limerents!
Itās first of February, the month the west chose to think and demonstrate love. Though love is in the air every where, every dayā¦ we make an extra effort to show our loved ones that we care for them on February 14, San Valentineās Day. Flowers and chocolates are the gifts of preference, also perfumes or a good book of poetry, a stuffed Teddy bear, a date for dinner, or even red lingerie, a Hallmarks Card, etc, etc.
Itās ok to present SOs with these little demonstrations of love; the question of the day is: what about LOs? What would you give your LO? A special enamored glance? A beautiful wide open smile, with glowing eyes? A love card with a poem on it? What do you do , that day, when everyone is exchanging š gifts and your LO is a āforbidden ā person, to whom you cannot demonstrate your feelings? How sad! I would like to grab my LO and give him a long big kiss! Only if I couldā¦
I ll bet youāre thinking of something to do, are you?
I think a stuffed Teddy bear is a harmless gift for LO, she/he can keep as a memento. How daring can you get? It depends on the relationship you have with the LO.
Happy
Month of February, Cheers to Love. ā¤ļø
Nisor,
“What would you give your LO? ”
A big, fat wave goodbye! It’s the perfect, universal gift for almost all LOs. š
Haha Marcia, youāre my kind of girl! Yeah, a fat wave goodbye!!!
Actually, it is US who have to say NO to ourselves pursuing LOs, because most of them donāt even know whatās happening inside of us. Itās all mentalā¦ how sick can we be? Lovesick, that isā¦. Its all soooooo ridiculous!!! We need a whack on the head to wake us up. That will be a nice gift to give oneself. Called āa wake up giftā. Do me a favor and wake me up!
.
In the East, Dragon will soar beginning on Feb. 10th this yearā¦. HEās hatching eggs now, perhaps?
Not sure about Phoenixā¦
Nisor,
“Haha Marcia, youāre my kind of girl! Yeah, a fat wave goodbye!!!”
Lol.
“Actually, it is US who have to say NO to ourselves pursuing LOs, because most of them donāt even know whatās happening inside of us.”
Yes, I agree. Although mine was aware of my feelings to some extent.
“That will be a nice gift to give oneself. Called āa wake up giftā. Do me a favor and wake me up!”
Yes.
One of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesn’t matter what you do. Call the LO. Don’t call. Text. Don’t text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or don’t. None of it matters and it won’t change anything.
Hi Nisor, maybe Dr L was going to pose this Valentine question on his next Blog and you stole his thunder, ha ha ( unlikely š)
Love Marcia’s on point reply!
I don’t really like Valentines as a one day to show affection. I think of lots of things to gift LO, few will come to pass.
To answer your question I personally think a teddy bear is a too romantic & bit cliche/generic IMHO. Maybe I’m too old for that kinda thing too !
As Snow says, Chinese new year is a few days earlier and maybe we focus on the year of the Dragon. I googled it. a random website says :-
“2024 is forecasted to bring about opportunities, changes, and challenges. If you’re seeking a shift in your current lives, this year might offer a favorable chance.”
Maybe we embrace the year of the Dragon !
@Marcia.
“One of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesnāt matter what you do. Call the LO. Donāt call. Text. Donāt text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or donāt. None of it matters and it wonāt change anything.”
So what’s the bottom line, in your honest opinion? In most cases, the limerent is just … attracted to the wrong person? š
Nisor,
As an xLO many times over, I affirm your message to limerents here, including myself, that a lot of time, LOs have little ideas whatās going on in their limerentsā head and do not care either. Good LOs would actually firmly sever limerents wishful dreams, Narc LOs would play a sport on their limerentsā mind. As a limerent, I experienced both kinds.
I was LO who never gave out any mixed signals, and always managed to let the other side know quickly that there was ABSOLUTEly no chance. Personally, without that Glimmer, nothing would work no matter which side tries. I tried to cultivate that Glimmer for quite āqualifiedā limerents, but it still would not work.
In my COO, it is considered that āPredestined Affinityā ā the Chemistry in the West, is missing. Neither side is right or wrong.
Marcia, Sammy
āOne of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesnāt matter what you do. Call the LO. Donāt call. Text. Donāt text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or donāt. None of it matters and it wonāt change anything.ā
It is such a truth, that I, as a xLO, have forgotten for a while. For self-controlled limerents, good LOās heart could be touched but may remain only as a (good) friend of the said limerents (like one I received last evening and some others); for clingy or stalking limerents, even good LOsā heart could feel contemptuous, although they may not show it for the sake of politeness or civility. If we have self-esteem and self-respect, then letās remember this brutal Truth.
It is true that most limerents are attracted to a āwrongā LO, due to some subconscious, biological causes. It is āwrongā not only because of barriers, but also the absence of that FATE ā predestined affinity, which one canāt obtain even if one could fetch the Moon for LO! In my OCC, many have truly accepted with peace/contentment the concept of Fate in romantic union, so they donāt suffer much of limerence pains. Iāve witnessed this again and again among my COO classmates and friends.
The worse is that even if there is predestined affinity ā both sides glimmered at each other, the union might still be broken due to existing incompatibility (personally I believe it can be cultivated over time if both sides wish to grow together and strengthen mutual love) or boredom once the obsessed desire is obtained. (Iām talking about āidealā scenarios without other barriers)
Imho,
āI donāt really like Valentines as a one day to show affection. I think of lots of things to gift LO, few will come to pass.ā
To show affection or celebrate Eros within us in just one a year is somewhat bewildering to Easterners, who usually or habitually show their love affection through concrete actions and deeds all year around. There is a mourning day for all deceased, a day for all star-crossed lovers who suffer an eternal separation, but for alive and active lovers.
Every coin has two sides: Year of Dragon is also seen and awed in the East as ātreacherousā. Dragonās beyond-human power or possible lucks HE brings could go any directions, but will be amplified hundreds of times more powerful. Itās either disasters or glories in all aspects of life. So everyone is highly vigilant during 365 days of āDragonās spirit-rein.ā
Google tends to emphasize only positivities, but one could see the duality of Dragon powers ā
āThe dragons of East Asian legend have sweeping powers. They breathe clouds, move the seasons, and control the waters of rivers, lakes, and seas. They are linked with yang, the masculine principle of heat, light, and action, and opposed to yin, the feminine principle of coolness, darkness, and repose.ā
In the Bible, dragons represent rebellious spiritual beings and the violent humans and empires in league with them. Jesus ultimately overcomes the dragon with a courageous act of generous love, and he invites his followers to do the same.
I would be watchful of the elements of both the East and the West during Dragonās soaringā¦.
For the Valentineās Day, Iād celebrate my own unrequited āLOVEā (not the limerenceās pining or whining), for LO or the Phantom of LO, who does NOT need to know or care. I think It shows a self-respectful validation for oneās own emotions, āright or wrongā, wise or foolishā¦ theyāre a part of our identity.
I think, I feel, therefore I am!
Imlo,
Typo: āNOT for alive and active loversā
Nisor,
āQualifiedā limerents means having compatibilities with realistic LO. For some people, this romantic relationship could possibly work. For me personally, it can NOT, due to missing of Glimmer ā the Fate.
Sammy,
“So whatās the bottom line, in your honest opinion? In most cases, the limerent is just ā¦ attracted to the wrong person? š”
Yes. In a nutshell.
Now, I ‘m writing this post from a single person’s perspective. (I’m not really sure and don’t totally understand what married limerents want from their LOs. It seems to keep their SOs and life as it is but dabble in some way in their LOs, but not really an affair ? And I’ve always wondered if that’s what my LO wanted from me. I had no interest in that. I didn’t want an appetizer. I wanted the full meal. Or as much of the meal as you can get with a married person. š )
But for the single limerent who is out and about and looking for a potential partner (even if they aren’t fully aware of it) … yes, it’s attraction to the wrong person. Most people find out someone is unavailable and/or not interested and move on. They don’t dig their heels in and become fixated on them. To become limerent is, quite frankly, an odd response.
Marcia,
ā And Iāve always wondered if thatās what my LO wanted from me. I had no interest in that. I didnāt want an appetizer. I wanted the full meal. Or as much of the meal as you can get with a married person. ā
No appetizer for me, either, which would induce a full blown āhungry ghostā on the Limerence Wheel! Thatās the major reason which prevented me from having a very possible PA with LO, when the chances were presented (you asked me once, Why). I intuitively knew it would hurt my heart more than just my illogical longingā¦ Also, one canāt miss too much of something that one does not know at all, right?
PA almost happened in my dream this dawnā¦. it was terrible and shocked meā¦ I considered it as a nightmare and feel lucky now that it was just a dream, not an objective ārealityāā¦ (Iām clearly aware of differences between subjective and objective REAL or UNREAL). My Unconscious is still somehow helping me on an emotional and psychological levelā¦ šµāš«
āMost people find out someone is unavailable and/or not interested and move on. They donāt dig their heels in and become fixated on them. To become limerent is, quite frankly, an odd response.ā
ITās NOT our conscious choice to fall in limerence, a lot of us has cptsd or other attachment issues (mostly unaware) from childhood or youth. Others with a happy childhood or SOs, for some āmysteriousā or instinctual reasons, are also Oddly attracted to āwrongā LOs, whether they are available or unavailable. All my previous LOs were available (unmarried), but still āwrongā for me; my current one was dominantly for a makeup āsurrogate parentingā.
I still think that limerents are already one before they bump into their first LO, only that they donāt know. I also think that limerents remain limerents even with full awareness and obtained insights. They probably would not FALL into limerence again. Hopefully, Glimmer will strike again, at a right LO.
“Iām not really sure and donāt totally understand what married limerents want from their LOs.”
I just wanted her attention. For what reason I am not sure. She just captivated my attention.
@Marcia.
“But for the single limerent who is out and about and looking for a potential partner (even if they arenāt fully aware of it) ā¦ yes, itās attraction to the wrong person. Most people find out someone is unavailable and/or not interested and move on. They donāt dig their heels in and become fixated on them. To become limerent is, quite frankly, an odd response.”
I understand what you mean. š
@Adam
“I just wanted her attention. For what reason I am not sure. She just captivated my attention.”
I get what you’re saying. Attention from LO feels very rewarding, both for singles and marrieds, and people have a hard time weaning themselves off that attention, even if they feel a bit uneasy about liking that attention so much. š¤
Snowphoenix,
“No appetizer for me, either, ”
The full meal for me was a PA. And because I had such strong feelings for him, I’m sure there would have been a big emotional component to the PA.
An appetizer is some kind of flirty friendship or some kind of flirtatious attention. No, thanks.
“ITās NOT our conscious choice to fall in limerence, ”
The limerent chooses how they act on the limerence. I knew my LO was married and I bulldozed right toward him.
Most people would have thought: This guy is married. It’s a waste of time and there are plenty of other people out there. Instead of getting such hideous tunnel vision that he was the only guy on the planet.
Marcia,
āThe full meal for me was a PA. And because I had such strong feelings for him, Iām sure there would have been a big emotional component to the PA.ā
Iām sure you have a big emotional component to the PA on your side, not sure about LOās side, which is what I would HATE ā feeling to be taken advantage of, not as a LO, but a SexO.
A teasing appetizer for me would be PA only, without a full meal ā regular EA (1st) + PA (2nd), or EA only if the 2nd course is unavailable. I tried the appetizer without the full meal before, so boring; I named it as SE.
āThe limerent chooses how they act on the limerence. I knew my LO was married and I bulldozed right toward him.ā
Well, I semi-consciously chose my only unavailable LO, was BECAUSE he WAS married and looked immune, so I would be SAFE from a possible PA (remember my still unbroken oath to myself? ā not deal with any taken men!). I didnāt know back then that I was chasing after a surrogate parent again ā āEAā, which tells how serious my cptsd need was, so badly triggered immediately by Fatherās death.
I only realized my subconscious, biological desire (born with Glimmer), AFTER seeing LOās glimmering at his pet LO and knowing their secret rendezvous. Later when offered with the appetizer, PA, I still refused it, because there was no EA as a part of the full meal, plus I would have to break my own oath to become a 2nd side- chick! Nope, thanks! I would not get on the Wheel of PA Hungry Ghosts. EA is so much more fulfilling!
Snowphoenix,
“EA is so much more fulfilling!”
To me, that’s a friendship. I can get that for a platonic relationship. Limerence has a romantic/sexual component to it. Meaning: it involves sex.
I’m not interested in being just a close friend. I would think that would be even more tortuous than what I already had from him.
To quote James Brown, “Give it up or turn it loose!” š
If I wanted a Friend, I’d get another Cat..
š
MJ,
“If I wanted a Friend, Iād get another Cat..”
Exactly. And my LO was such a tease. I don’t like teases. Eventually, you have to deliver. š
Marcia,
āEA is so much more fulfilling!ā
To me, thatās a friendship. I can get that for a platonic relationship.ā
Well, for me, running away from carefree, meaningless or unsafe PA pursuing was a ānormā of my life since 12, but getting a substantial, lasting friendship was always a fate-related challenge. So I always valued meaningful EA ā fulfills my mind, much more than just PA ā my cousinās word, āIsnāt it just a piece of steak with ribs?ā (When emotions are uninvolved)
Then a platonic friendship with a LO is more precious than with anyone else, because of that romance component, fulfilled or not ā an unrequited love amplified. Many of us here, particularly those with SO, know that feeling. If two courses of a full meal are limited, then take one. One just canāt have it all!
āLimerence has a romantic/sexual component to it. Meaning: it involves sex.ā
Glimmer has a romantic/sexual component to it; but rare limerence could be for a āmissingā parent, sibling, spiritual figure, an idol, a child, etc. I agree that in most of cases, it seems to be pair-bonding tightly related, conscious or unconscious.
People who fall into Limerence usually have some unconscious needs/wants (even if they have a happy SO); mine at the time was for a surrogate parent to make up for my permanent loss of Father, LOās unavailable status and personality seemed to suit the role, so I started ādialogueā. From the beginning up to 4 years, I was quite content. PA was not my conscious aim (although might be on a subconscious level). It seems that my case is very hard to be understood hereā¦.
āIām not interested in being just a close friend. I would think that would be even more tortuous than what I already had from him.ā
I would agree with you here, because our biological needs paired with our emotional wants canāt be fulfilled, double folds ā it hurts! My limerence pain kicked in precisely when my instinctual desire for LO was fully realized by my jealousy for LOās pet LO.
Unrequited Love, I imagine, would be able to be LOās close friends without feeling much hurt, but just enjoying platonic friendship, like my limerent friend who visited me 2 days ago. Iām taking steps walking towards that direction with my LO, but often 3 steps forward and then 2 step backwardsā¦
Snow,
“If two courses of a full meal are limited, then take one. One just canāt have it all!”
Nah. I’d rather go hungry. š I’m not interested in part of the meal. I can get those parts from other people.
At the time I met my LO, I had a platonic best friend. My LO’s job is to bring the sexy! š
All this meal talk is making quite peckish !
I will refrain from delving into the snack cupboard.
Imho,
Haha, same here! Just wanted to ask whatās wrong with a good steakā¦
Keeping up with the sweets? Iām quite goodšŖš»but donāt know for how long. I use the dark chocolate as recommended by you, but unfortunately my gut is on strike at the moment with all the change and dark chocolate isnāt supposed to be good for that.
Sorry, completely off-topic, I know. But it does distract me.
Mila,
I think my cousin meant that a steak does not have a soul to communicate with a human mind and reciprocate even a non-limerentās emotional needs/cravings.
Marcia,
I forgot to mention last night another Highly seductive, no-sex related thing one could be in limerence with ā LONGING itself in Amanda McCrackenās TED talk. Itās āthe desire/cravingā ITSELF, a part of oneself, that one could be in limerence with, for whatever reasons.
In my case, the constant longing to be picked up, probably sustained my existence and tolerance in that dreadful weekcare for two years, and later became a part of my system, familiar, comfortable, and hopeful — soon or later, Dad did come to pick me up, longing was paid off.
But any LO is not a real father!
As for myself, I find LO’s hugs to be quite satisfying. Of course, I have an SO at home….
Snow,
“But any LO is not a real father!”
Very true. Given the deprivation you experienced as a baby, it makes perfect sense you prioritze an emotional connection.
When I met my LO, as I wrote, I had a BFF. I also had another really close friend. So I felt pretty supported emotionally. It’s not that I didn’t want an emotional connection with my LO (I did). But I prioritized the romantic/sexual component. That’s what I lacked in my life.
Serial Limerent,
“As for myself, I find LOās hugs to be quite satisfying. ”
That would start to feel like being in high school. Are we ever gonig to do any more than this? š
Sammy,
Just woke up with a forgotten dream, but had a new words popped up for the poem, yet itās about her ā
*****
Under the Gray, Misty Sky ā
I see the door at last closing
With an open window in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: “I knew her in longing…”
Beneath an implacable sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil is resisting
The gravedigger’s giant spoon.
The cross she carried she carried for her –
The phantom child(daughter?), gone too late!
2/4/24
****
Does it sound right, based on my LE script?
Both the Phantom parent/lover and child/lover need to be buried with unwillingness, but I donāt know how to manage both in one short verse?
There is an open window, though still foggy/misty outsideā¦ thatās the speakerās view nowā¦
Under the Gray, Misty Sky ā
I see the door at last closing
With an open window in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: “I knew her in longing…”
Beneath an implacable sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil is resisting
The gravedigger’s giant spoon.
The cross she carried she carried for her –
The phantom child, gone so lateā¦.
2/4/24
A sigh š
Under the Gray, Misty Sky ā
I see the door at last closing
With an open window in sight.
I see the funeral unfolding
Like the steady advance of night.
The priest anxiously composing
Some lines: “I knew her in longing…”
Beneath an implacable sky,
Butterflies huddle in cocoons.
The winter soil is resisting
The gravedigger’s giant spoon.
The cross she carried she carried for her –
The phantom child, grown so lateā¦.
2/4/24
Implacable is great!
I donāt know if I then would use the sky in the heading though, somehow gray and misty cannot keep up with implacable.
So āgray, misty skyā is less gloomier than implacable sky?
The original few lines came to mind one day after I took a long walk along a big river (1/25), which was covered almost entirely by very thick gray fog/misty, almost made the huge bridge over the river indivisible. Itās was so surreal and poetic that I felt I were in a dream, as I was walkingā¦.
Then, after getting home, I took a nap, had a dream in which I saw LOās big eyes tearing and then full of tears due, twice in a 2 hour catnipā¦ which made me very sad afterwardsā¦.
So through such a gray, foggy sky, I seeā¦
Typo: āthe bridge over the river invisible. ā
Well, gray and misty is a mere optical and sensual description while implacable is a character or something ascribed to humans or living beings (sorry for my English)
Mila,
āImplacable skyā is suggested by Sammy, I did not even know the word until Nisor brought it in to substitute for āUnforgiving Skyā. I still donāt fully know how to use the word.
Originally, I used the optical vision, since I eyewitnessed the incredible view, I was seized in it. I like to use specific, visual, or sensual words in verse.
Maybe I should say, āThrough the Gray, Foggy Sky/Bridgeāā¦ there is a picture of the misty scene attached to this poem.
My English is still limited, thanks for your feedbackā¦
Snowphoenix,
My English is surely more limited than yours, I just go with gut feelingš and I felt that mentioning the sky twice in an unconnected way diminished each mentioning somehow (but you see, I cannot describe properly what I mean).
But great atmosphere anyway.
Wow the first time I wake up to LwL wondering what the hell did I drunk post last night and than I see it’s not that bad. I do love her.
Would I love to turn it off right now? Even the last few vestiges of it now? YES!!! Anything I can count as personal growth from this experience was at the price of someone else. My wife, my boys or her. Everyone else paid the price for my actions and behavior. Even if I have found my faith again, it’s still a price someone else paid. No I would much rather know WHY I love someone, like my wife, than the alcoholic euphoria of limerence. Nothing good comes from limerence, or at least mine, when in 23 years you look at your wife and ask if we should separate. No, nothing good came of it.
No, I would not turn off my limerence. After learning a lot about it and doing some other readings from Eastern traditions, I feel that my limerence has helped me connect with my spiritual side. I feel as if I can comfortably enjoy the feelings of closeness with my LO on a spiritual rather than physical level. I feel as though it has enhanced my physical life, my enjoyment of life with my SO and family, helped reduce stress.
On a slightly different but related note I see that limerence is gaining mainstream attention. See this recent article in the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/27/style/limerence-addiction-love-crush.html
At the end of the article a woman describes her techniques for getting rid of limerence, and my thoughts were how sad that must be. I canāt imagine focusing on only ways to get rid of the limerence, instead of accepting it as the phenomenon that it is and allowing it to exist in a separate space from your everyday physical life.
@PS & Coffeehouse.
I read the NYT article you link to, and actually I really liked it. I think it’s really good. The tone is measured, informed, compassionate. I think the journalist did a really good job of doing what a journalist is meant to do.
If I were to comment on the article, I would say that the “replaying” and “rehearsing” limerents-in-distress do mostly seems to be unconscious rather than conscious? So I don’t think (first-time) limerents are fully aware they’re setting themselves up for a disappointment later on, if things don’t go exactly to plan.
Also, I’d say that “slipping into reverie” is fine if one knows LO’s feelings, and a relationship is mutually desired, and all other moral boxes are checked off, etc. The situation I worry about is when people slip into reverie over an LO, but they don’t know whether this LO is into them, or whether this LO truly wants a relationship. (Assuming the limerent is really keen on a relationship happening).
Then the whole business can get very awkward very fast.
I’d say “confirm feelings are mutual before going overboard with reveries”. But that’s not limerence – that’s something akin to conventional dating. š¤š
I agree with Snowphoenix who posts these quotations from Proust:
āDesire makes everything blossom; possession makes everything wither and fade.ā ā Proust
āThere must be something inaccessible in what we love, something to pursue; we love only what we do not possessā¦ā ā Proust
Why canāt we accept limerence as something we will never posses, and whose point is not to be possessed? Instead enjoy the feeling/phenomenon of love/desire for closeness without the need to possess it further?
William Blake wrote in his Proverbs of Hell: that he would āSooner strangle an infant in its cradle than nurse unacted desires.ā I feel sorry for him. Iām fully enjoying nursing unacted desires with none of the desire to act on them!
Youāre getting a hang of Eastern traditions (similar to Stoicism) ā to accept whatās already out there and within us here with equilibrium.
What is resisted persists ā itās a law of physics, as well as psychology.
I resonate with your sentiments about Blakeās line.
Now our blog is on New York Times, I may be possibly exposed to LO, who reads it daily. I may even end up chatting with him here without knowingā¦. š„“
I would turn it off. Others here have had more enjoyable LE experiences. Mine seems to be nothing more than chronic pain. It was maybe fun for 6 weeks out of the 100 I’ve been in it. Not a good ratio.
I would turn it off in a heartbeat. I have been genuinely amazed by tales of positive experiences because I thought they would be very much a rarity.
If you are both single and looking for love then maybeā¦. but I believe that fundamentally it is a distorted state of mind caused very often through adverse childhood experiences.
For me, the experience has caused the worst emotional pain of my life. I believe that it is incredibly dangerous too because our feelings and perceptions are temporarily distorted. Itās all fine until things start to turn sour. From reading various comments over the last couple of years, it seems that a lot of relationships have been damaged by a limerent partner. The distorted mind-set means that we sometimes act selfishly, it seems.
Maybe thatās a bit like love itself, but limerence is obsessive and fraught with danger i.m.h.o.
I suppose I would turn mine off if I really wanted to. I should since I am on a different shift now and rarely see LO anyway. It’s nice to still think of her. The places I would see her. Remembering her nice outfits and when I thought we were just a conversation away from going out.
At least in my mind it felt like that. Too bad it wasn’t real and that’s when I get stuck. So I may not be in the really bad place I was, but there is always that hope, way in the back of my mind, something will actually happen.
@MJ,
When the mind is a doer ādoingā imagining, feeling, thinking and remembering, they are REAL to the mind. Are mental activities considered a part of reality?
When the mind is witched to an observer, observing imagining, feelings, thinking, and remembering, we then consider them UNREALā¦ because they do not exist outside the mind.
I consider feelings thoughts, imaginations, reveries, etc. as real experiences for a human mind, and thus REAL ā āI think, therefore I am.ā
Without realistic facts, visual images, and five senses of us here in LwL, are our feelings, thoughts, imaginations, dreamsā¦ REAL or UNREAL? Can we just turn off our devices and shrug our heads: Ah, Iāve just encountered a bunch of āghostsā who do not exist in my reality; therefore, my virtual interactions with them and the consequential thoughts and sentiments are UNREAL?
Typo: āwhen the mind is switched to an observer,ā
Human mind sometimes does and observes at the same time, even during sleeps. In dreams, I sometimes had my eyes (I consider it as the Unconscious eye šļø) hanging high in space, watching my actions, feeling, sensing and thinking . (I documented a lot of them) Are they REAL or UNREAL to the dreamer and the observer?
When I write down my dreams and post them here, what happens in the readerās mind? It WAS cool to meet Nisor, Sammy, and DrL and vividly interacted with them in my dreams last week; I enjoyed the interactions while dreaming and the memories while sharing with you āghostsā here, to āimmortalizeā themā¦. Now have they become Real or still Unreal??
If I ever meet them in person outside here during waking hours, then it would be another real experienceā¦ Both kinds, inside mind and outside mind, are REAL, in my opinion and experience.
@MJ,
When the mind is a doer ādoingā imagining, feeling, thinking and remembering is REALā¦
When the mind is witched to an observer, observing imagining, feelings, thinking, and remembering, we call them UNREALā¦ based on common definitions of āREALā and āUNREALā.
I consider feelings thoughts, imaginations, reveries, etc. as real experiences for a human mind ā āI think, therefore I am.ā
@Snow,
Perhaps that’s why some of my past ruminations of LO felt so real at times. Like when she left to go work next door, it felt like a real breakup. Like she wanted to leave me and nothing would stop her. I swear I never cried so hard. I’ve been deliriously sad ever since. So sad, that my heart has felt actual physical pain over her at times. That’s how intense my feelings got at one point. Crazy, stupid limerence.
Not so much like that nowadays. I still probably think of her way too much though, but I talk to a Priest about it. Therapy isn’t totally out of the question either. Didn’t have the best of luck finding someone last time so I’ve been dragging a$$.
@MJ,
Every coin has two sides, without darkness there would be NO light.
When I perceived a āghostingā from LO in person for the first time (a previous one was online 1 year prior in 2018) on the commencent day, the triggered abandonment melonge (originated from my childhoodāvaguely remembered Motherās cold, comtempuous face) sent me into my worst panic attack before I took off the ceremonial gown; I was almost physically on my knees in an empty office. (My system always went banana in empty public rooms for ?? reasons). Thatās when I picked up Stocism study for the entire summer of 2019 ā I determined to find a mental shield to protect myself from any future unforeseeable, psychological pains.
Later, when the negative imagions hit in my head, I would go over all Stoic mantras again and again, trying to absorb their essences. I did not tell my therapist or anyone else about this unnamble obsession (24/7) ā I knew my reactions towards LO were illogical and maddening but did not understand why and how.
Gradually, I can choose what fantasies to keep in my head to please or soothe my heart, and just passively watch negative ones coming and going, without resistance but an understanding and acceptance. Itās not that easy, there were many back-n-forth, emotional and psychological growth and backfalls.
It sounds youāre feeling a lot better now, I hope you get recovered soon! The acute awareness about our mindās magical imagining power, both constructive and destructive, DO help heal our limerent brain.
I would not turn off limerence. I’ve had the fortune to learn about it at a pretty good stage where it never heavily disrupted my life, I think, and as such, I believe I will have a much better hold of it if it were to ever happen again.
I would absolutely get rid of it if I could. The initial stage is wonderous, that feeling of anticipation and euphoria, but itās only ever ended in pain and hurt and tears. To know you will always care more than the other person is a horrible thing and not something I would wish on anyone.
As I elaborated in numerous tedious posts, at the moment I feel resentment for LO and the whole mess, which made me search for a blog post I vaguely remembered, and I found it.
Brilliant post from Dr. L, I recommend it to anyone whoās like me and gets angry at LO from time to time:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-things-go-sour/
I remember that time for me. It was actually the transition I needed to get to acceptance. I guess you could compare it to the five stages of grief. Mine were just in a different order. Being angry at her for just being the person she was; nice, kind, friendly helped me realize how bad my delusion was. It made me see myself for who I was being. Which of course then lead to acceptance of what I did and who I needed to be after this. To try and redeem myself to my wife. To let my sons accept what I did to their mother in their own way. Not try to redeem myself as forgiveness is not a guarantee from them.
I very seldom like expressing anger. It is one of my worst emotions and I try to avoid it at all cost. But it helped me with this. I spent some time angry at myself too. For being angry at her. But here I am at the end of the tunnel I think. Things seem to be settling into the norm again. I know it truly will never be the “same” again but maybe better with the “different” it now is.
Hi Adam,
part of my anger is anger at myself, too. And actually some part of me is conscious of the fact that he is just as lovable or annoying as he always has been, overall a kind and special person, itās only me who swings from love to anger and back.
Still, at the moment it feels healthy to be a bit angry, and this part of myself I just described controls me so that I wonāt vent my anger at him.
Itās like Dr L writes: āIt can be helpful to take those feelings of anger and frustration and use them to realise that LO isnāt this hugely desirable person.ā
Thatās exactly what Iām doing at the moment.
Adam, Iām so glad you feel you are at the end of the tunnel.
It gives us all hope! Well done, well done.
I have enjoyed reading through this ‘sour’ blog, it was a new one for me.
Thanks Mila.
Even without getting negative about him, doesn’t the sheer futility of the LE put you right off him? Neither of you is ever going to do anything about it. Its just so pointless that moving on is the only way.
LO can still be in your life (maybe, though you might not bother as much about that if you do move on from the romantic feelings)
Hi Bewitched
you describe exactly my desired state of mind. I know itās all true -the futility, the lack of point- since months actually.
The thing is, knowing all this is one thing, but really getting it under your skin is another. Last meeting scratched at my skin, and I do my best to let it in.
As usual when I decided not to text anymore, he texted first, I reacted but not extremely encouraging, so its silence again. I guess he will text again some time.
Iām really determined to put the texting on balance with the rest of our interactions, because thatās the point where it feels wrong, and thatās a not too complicated goal to achieve.
Thanks for the true sentences, Iāll keep rereading them to internalize them finally!
Hey Mila,
Maybe just take a break from your phone, girl! Try a short texting detox and explain to him so you dont have to worry about his reaction or him being hurt. Or tell him that phone or app is on the blink (acting strangely).
His SO could read his texts sometime, she sounds like a force of nature. I am a little worried about her freaking out at him/you. Maybe use this as motivation for yourself to reduce text contact? (You can give him another excuse to manage his reaction).
The gradual easing off seems to be a good approach too, to lessen questioning of it from any quarter. All of this can go hand in hand with dialing back and removing him from brain. I am trying this too.
Hi Bewitched,
I surely have a phone addiction now, Iām much too often here or on social media or even read books on my phoneā¦
I just let it be because with limerence and sugar detox, I thought Iāve got enough on my hands in terms of quittingā¦
But maybe it would help especially with limerence if I stopped using my phone so much, you are right.
I donāt think his SO would ever freak out, sheās not the type. Sheās always holding herself together and doing the right thing. But I donāt know. Thereās nothing to freak out about in our texts too other than they are so many. I donāt worry about her, to be honest.
I donāt want to make him too much aware of whatās happening. In the end he did nothing much wrong, it shouldnāt feel like I punish him for something or donāt want to be friends any more, I want to avoid questions. Much as I craved for one honest conversation in the past, now I want to avoid that. Iāve the feeling if I would announce a phone detox now, he would ask if itās got something to do with him. Iām not such a good liar.
I think I managed ok yesterday, stopping texting effectively without being abrupt and not reacting on kissing Emojiā¦ but itās a bit of work to measure it just right so it doesnāt feel Iām suddenly not available.
Iāve read the blog of āsourā several times, and found itās most helpful in reducing and removing my resentments that came and went, depending on my physical conditions (tiredness, short sleeps, etc), which I think itās normal for us limerents.
The three points DrL says in āSourā I found strikingly effective to my mind personally:
1. āGiving in to resentment means allowing someone elseās behaviour to determine your mood.ā
I canāt stand the idea and the fact that someone else could indirectly determine/control my moods and stages of mind, particularly even when they did not intentionally do it. We limerents unawarely give that power to both decent or Narc LOs. I would hate to be ācontrolledā by anyone else, nor they by me ā I would not manipulate anyone into liking me more, whatās authenticity and enjoyment in that?! Thatās why I did little āchasingā in all my former LEs, LOs all reciprocated either in EA or PA, except the latest one ā a true limerence case, by Tennovās definition.
2. ā resentment generally comes from a sense of entitlement.ā
With 35% of narcissistic traits in me, I knew I sometimes semi-consciously felt entitled to certain matters, particularly considering in the past I was many more times more of a LO than a limerent. Then with a study of Stoicism and Buddhism, I have to pull myself down again and again, telling myself: others (their emotions, thoughts and behaviors) and the outside world are absolutely OUT of your control! LO or anyone else has rights to do or change whatever suit their needs or situations, not your limerence longing!
Then I try to remember asking more myself: Who do you think you are to deserve an unavailable LOās exclusive affections (which would involve an emotionally ābreakupā with his SO of 25 years), just because you have intense feelings for him? I even went further: If he were single, what could I offer in a romantic relationship with him? I know so little about this person; all I truly wanted was to be makeup-treated like an āorphanā child by an idealized surrogate parent. So heal your cptsd first!
3. āit is unreasonable to feel that your friends are obligated to you. If a friend lets you down, itās disappointing for sure, but youāre not entitled to some sort of emotional compensation.ā
If we could and often do accept this in terms of our friendship, then why we expect more unreasonably from LO, who is often not a solid friend or available to be a solid friend? (Mila, your case is an exception).
āUnrealistic expectationsā is not only a root of limerence pains, but a root of many un-fulfillment and unhappiness in life. If one truly gives or makes best efforts without clinging on expected results, one would feel so much FREER or joyful just enjoying a journey towards a purposeful goal.
To say that I never had a thought of āpaybackā by Karma in the midst of resentments is dishonest and inauthentic. So when a misfortune did fall on LO, I could not help enlarge my eyes and release a deep sigh: Ah, that Karmaā¦
Now, I have more compassion and sorrow for LO than myself. All the previous resentments have gone with windā¦. Yesterday, I called LO to my office, returned his plant I was helping water during the winter break (heās traveling in Europe), and gave him a small bottle of āWhite Jasmineā scented room-infuser refill, just wished to help him feel better, since heās been so ādisheartenedāā¦. I have no expectation of any kind, since an irreversible, realistic end is approachingā¦.
How sad indeed.
Sometimes sadness out of assured endings is easier but heavier than anxiety out of hopeful uncertainties.
I see your case still has a hope, all you need to figure out is how to dial down the anxiety, face it with a more accepting attitude. If I were you, Iād wait out without doing anything ā in reacting to your LOās attitude or behaviors. Friendship or a romantic connection is not something one can rush for, particularly if you think heās in spectrum, and a social media might be more addictive than a chemical substance,
Uncertainty and sadness are a part of life as default. When I am seized by sadness nowadays, I no longer fight with it by distracting my mind with other activities, just to fully experience itā¦. Then strangely, it would go away on its own..
“I canāt stand the idea and the fact that someone else could indirectly determine/control my moods and stages of mind, particularly even when they did not intentionally do it.” To me, that doesn’t apply to LO’s – it applies to innocent spouses affected by a limerent’s actions.
I’m sure that limerence is difficult, but it’s worse for the victims of a limerent’s actions. But with therapy and hard work, it can get better. It just won’t get better if we keep talking about limerence as something that can’t be controlled. I have diabetes from birth, so not my fault. I still have to take actions to control it.
Getting back to the original question: “Would you turn off your limerence?”
The answer is “Yes” and I turned it off. It took years of analysis, introspection, and working with several therapists. When I started that journey, I didn’t know what limerence was. As time progressed, I learned a lot about myself.
One therapist labeled me co-dependent. Another therapist said that I wasn’t co-dependent. Co-dependence didn’t fit the dynamics of my relationship with LOs #2 and #4 but limerence did.
As a single person, limerence didn’t have the potential to wreak as much havoc in my life as it did as a married person. I had discovered limerence that the roots of my relationship and behavior patterns went back to my mother by the time I discovered limerence. I returned to the EAP counselor for another round to validate the concept of limerence and feel confident that I’d never have another LE.
I don’t think I’m any less of a romantic or passionate daydreamer than I ever was. But, I’m also a lot older now and I’d like to think that I’m a lot smarter. If I ever find myself back on the market, I’d have a much better idea of what I’d look for in a woman.
Well, that was mildly incoherent.
The phone rang as I was typing.
Sigh…
I completely related to your post, L.E. Not incoherent at all… or maybe I am just good at tracking incoherence. š
Anyway, yes, I have also ‘turned it off’. I give myself a pass for the first two limerent experiences because I didn’t know what limerence was until the tail end of my second experience. But when my limerent brain was reaching out for a third one, I said no, and fought it with my thinking/rational brain and it did work. Now I can look back and thank God that I didn’t leave my husband after all because that would have solved nothing. But the emotions and the intrusive thoughts are so strong and so hard to overcome. I learned it just takes time and space for it to pass — to get out of the ‘tunnel’ as I like to call it.
Hey all, sorry to hijack this post with something off topic but Iām really struggling. Like immensely. My limerance comes and goes in regards to its intensity. My trigger is always social media. Since weāre āfriendsā now (I disclosed after several years of torture- hallelujah and he wasnāt/is? unsure he wants to date anyone- yeah, probably just wanted to let me down easy), I never felt comfortable blocking, unfriending, unfollowing and basically doing what a self respecting person would do in my situation. I managed to remove myself from a couple of platforms but my rhetoric is that if I disappear completely it will show a strong (immature?) response and I donāt want to give my LO the satisfaction. Not sure if that makes sense to you all. Itās a power move, if it were.
Confession: I canāt help myself from occasionally posting baity type posts hoping to garner a response from LO. Anything at this point. So for example, a band we saw once, a song we both like, image from his favorite bakery in town and so on. It drives me insane that he sees them (he admitted once albeit jokingly that he likes to online stalk me on occasion) but lately itās been crickets. So I keep trying and Iām the process losing my self respect and dignity. I have been really ocd-ing about it for weeks. The loop goes like this: he proposed a friendship, I accepted the scraps, I want attention and he isnāt playing along. This is not a person who is actively in my life, we donāt work together, we donāt live in the same area and thereās 5% chance weāll ever run into each other in public. My pleas for attention through social media to which he is most likely unaware (or IS HE? Oh God, could he be?) have reached the point of embarrassment and I am asking you HOW to reverse or redeem myself so I donāt look insane and of course, keep feeling like Iāve just given away the last shred of my dignity. Advice?
@Anastasia.
Sorry to hear you’re struggling, Anastasia. I don’t really know what to say to you.
When you say your limerence comes and goes in regards to its intensity, what exactly are you referring to? Do you mean strong emotions and intrusive thoughts about this person? Like you can’t get your mind off of him? But sometimes the situation is easier to cope with than at other times?
Do you feel your moods are dependent on this man’s behaviour? E.g. do you sometimes feel really happy and sometimes feel really sad, and you think your feelings are all tied up with this man’s attitude toward you in some way, but you can’t really say how?
Do you feel that your brain treats this man as a drug almost? I.e. do you feel like you’re having a really intense response to him, and this response is biological? Like your whole body and mind is on high alert in relation to him, and you’re not really choosing to have this powerful response?
From your description, it sounds like he rejected you romantically, but the rejection was rather ambiguous. I.e. he didn’t say that he absolutely doesn’t like you, only that he’s not interested in dating. He COULD theoretically be playing games with you, or he COULD be trying to let you down gently. That makes the situation very tricky, as you’ll naturally want to cling to any shreds of hope.
Social media can present a lot of challenges if you’re experiencing addiction to a person, because you’ll get a lot of reminders of that person, and all those reminders might serve as an intermittent reward for your brain, making the infatuation harder to get over. š
I donāt think heās playing games. Heās on the spectrum, I suspect, so that kind of emotional manipulation doesnāt seem to be the way he operates, especially in romantic situations. The man hasnāt had a proper relationship since Trump was first elected, whether itās truly by choice, as he claims or again, Aspie tendencies getting in the way?
As per your question, my mood shifts are largely dependent on what I call triggers. He posts very little on social media as most middle men aged do not anyway but he admitted in the past to reading my Facebook posts and was being complimentary how thoughtful they were. I work with marginalized population so I write a lot about politics and such. Or I used to since in the past few months Iāve shifted to writing posts about myself and my social activities out of desperation for attention. From him, of course. I want to be noticed. I am secretly hoping to elicit a response that would allow me to inject some hope again. My blissful place was before disclosure and his unenthusiastic response to it. No, he doesnāt want to date me or anyone (the latter likely a lie) but would ālove to be in my lifeā is how the story ended. Well, fast forward to months later I find myself struggling with severe intrusive thoughts about ācould would shouldaā and feeling particularly annoyed by those who suggest to simply āmove onā- yeah right, non limerant types, easy for you to say. Hence I keep throwing up photos on social media of our mutual interest like pickleball matches, art, books, songs in hope he notices and calls, texts, sends any sign weāre friends, he cares, basically that thereās a slither of hope for me that there will ever be a romantic relationship into our future. Weāre both single. There are no logistical obstacles in the way.
When I get no response, I find myself in a cycle of self loathing Iāve mentioned earlier. I feel embarrassed, stupid, paranoid he can see right through my weak attempts to get his attention. Itās agonizing.
Anastasia,
Have you read https://livingwithlimerence.com/social-media-and-limerence/?
You can make quite a game of playing cat-and-mouse with your LO or XLO, in my case.
11 years ago, LO #2 sent me an FB request after 25 years of NC. I didn’t accept it but I responded to it. That story is buried somewhere in an earlier post.
The most interesting thing was that LO #2 had a BF, now her husband. There was nothing about him on her page but she was all over his page. For awhile, I watched them both. I swear the was mirroring my posts on his page. I’d post that I went to a concert, a few weeks later, they’d be a post showing them at a concert. I posted some pictures of a trip, I got treated to them on a beach in Hawaii.
Ready for this? I was discussing all this with LO #4 with whom I was developing an LE with. She’s a PsyD. LO #4’s opinion was that was no coincidence. LO #2’s BF was willing to publicly claim her but she wasn’t willing to publicly claim him. In LO #4’s opinion, LO #2 doesn’t want me to know. LO #4 knows more about LO #2 than my wife does.
There’s a lot more to that story. The point is that you can get a lot of limerent mileage from social media games. I don’t play chess but I love strategy and tactics. I was on submarines and submariners are sneaky sons-of-bitches. We like screwing with peoples’ heads for sport.
In the end, it’s not usually productive, perpetuates the LE, and leaves you feeling worse in the morning.
Kind of like a hangover.
But, until you decide that you’ve had enough, you can have some short-term fun playing the social media game.
Just realize that your playing a game that has no real return and it can blow up on you. Do a risk analysis and if the potential consequences are acceptable, play the game for as long as you like.
Eventually, I got tired and quit. One thing that helped me was the EAP Counselor I worked with would beat me over the head with the question, “What would you do with the knowledge if you had it?”
That question helped me realize that I was just playing a game and there was no real benefit.
Dear Anastasia,
I am sorry you are feeling so bad. š It sounds like this man is just not interested, so it is probably in your best interest to block him from your social media and try to move on. It hurts a lot at first, but if you keep hoping that he will pursue you and he doesn’t, you will continue to feel low. A man will pursue a woman if he really wants to, no matter if he is on the spectrum or not.
It might be best to free yourself from this vicious cycle so that you can make your *lovely* self available to a man who will be a man and actually pursue you!
You are in a unique position here at LwL because you are single, so hopefully you’ll get to meet some other great single men who are worthy of your attention and love ā¤ļø.
Wishing you the best!
“When I get no response, I find myself in a cycle of self loathing Iāve mentioned earlier. I feel embarrassed, stupid, paranoid he can see right through my weak attempts to get his attention. Itās agonizing.”
@Anastasia.
I’m sorry you’re experiencing so much upset when you can’t/don’t get your LO’s attention. Please don’t take his lack of responsiveness toward you personally, as a negative reflection of your self-worth, because it isn’t. How other people act genuinely has very little to do with us. It does sound like your moods have become somewhat dependent on this man’s (inconsistent? hard-to-read?) behaviours.
It sounds like your brain has decided this man is a really good man, and that receiving validation from him is extremely important to you. Perhaps this man IS a really good man. Now you must ask yourself: “Why do I need validation from a really good man? Why does validation from this kind of man feel so valuable/precious?”
Ā
It sounds like your brain has already decided that you guys have a lot in common, and you badly want to retain that belief as well as the bond you believe you share. And, yes, maybe you guys do have a lot in common. However, having many things in common doesn’t make you ideal romantic partners. It could make you wonderful friends. Limerence, sadly, has a way of stopping good friendship from developing (because the lovesick party always wants more). š
If it became clear that this man can never give you what you want in terms of affection and attention, would you still want to carry a torch for him? We have to be realistic about what other people can give us, and what other people want to give us. Imagine a woman who wants a certain man to hug her, and this certain man never wants to hug her, or only hugs her reluctantly and with no real emotion. Imagine how hurt and betrayed this woman would end up feeling.
I’m an Aspie. So here’s another way of framing your situation. Aspies are very, very straightforward. They usually say what they mean and mean what they say. If you truly believe this man is honest enough “not to play games with you”, then why do you assume he’s lying when he says he does not want to date you (or anyone else)? In your own statement, you contradict yourself.
Here’s the Aspie interpretation of the situation: your LO told you the truth and you don’t need to keep obsessing over his words. He likes you very much as a person. Maybe he even admires you as a person. He wants to be your friend, because you clearly have a lot in common interests.
Unlike neurotypical men, Aspie don’t instantly (or ever) sexualise/romanticise relationships with the opposite sex. Even Aspies who are heterosexual often treat women as sisters. (Very frustrating, I know, if the Aspie in question is good-looking and his lady friend is a fan of that particular look).
He doesn’t want to date you or anyone else at this current time. He doesn’t want you to hold out for him either. If you chase him, he will feel increasingly smothered and take steps to distance himself from you. You will drive him away and ruin any sincere friendship you guys do actually share.
You’re clearly a very nice person, Anastasia. Congratulations on your fabulous taste in men!! But what you absolutely must do now – both for yourself and for your Aspie gentleman friend – is find a way to stop being emotionally dependent on this man’s behaviour.
If he’s a true Aspie, he really isn’t sending you bizarre signals over the Internet. The only game being played out is the game being played out in your own mind. Your Aspie friend is just being his quirky Aspie self. It’s nice that you think he’s cute, or whatever. But I think he really needs you to be his friend and not his girlfriend.
He definitely doesn’t need you to be his “female friend who acts like his girlfriend even though she isn’t his girlfriend”. Aspies are not so great at boundaries, unfortunately, and not so great at social cues. So the onus is on you to detach yourself from a man who can’t satisfy you and pursue a man who can give you all the things you want romantically. This detachment isn’t about demonising anyone – it’s about knowing what you want and finding someone who is on the same page as you in terms of relationship goals, needs, etc. š
Wishing you good health and happiness on your journey. š
Dear Anastasia,
So sorry to hear that you are suffering.
Sammy’s questions are good ones. Limerence has some common features – the main one being that it is not real, it is *all* in our *heads*. If we were free to act and both interested in pursuing relationship, it would not have developed into such a painful experience. It is not really a dialogue with another person, but more of a monologue.
The next important lesson seems to be that the more we indulge it, the more painful it will be. Some of us have never met our LOs in person, others have in the past but no longer do, (this sounds like your case), some of us need to adapt to seeing our LOs at work or we are in the same town/neighbourhood and risk bumping into them. Social media applies in all cases, to more or less of an extent – not so much in my case so I can’t help you too much with that – except to say that others have found it excruciating and only recovered once they cut that down, eventually cutting it out. From what others have said, its the nature of social media with its “intermittent reward” of a ‘like’ or a ‘response’ that is addictive in itself, even without throwing limerence into the mix.
I think what helped me the most with managing limerence was realising that I am doing it to myself. I am training myself on another person, and the more I think and ruminate and fantastise about them, the worse I am going to feel when the inevitable barriers or non-reciprocation mean that I am not free to explore a relationship with LO.
When you feel bad, you can post on here and get dome support from the community.
Sending my best.
Thank you
Your situation reminds me of a song lyric Anastasia …
“I love you too much to ever start liking you
So let’s just let the story kind of end
I love you too much to ever start liking you
so don’t expect me to be your friend”
I cannot advice much on your situation because you have no barriers. But I will tell you a story if you want to humor an old man …
Back when I was young (around 20) I had a young lady that I grew up with (since around 12-13 she went to same church as I did) that one day just caught my eye. She just walked into church one day and I saw her come in and BAM! she wasn’t just the friend I knew she was this beautiful woman I saw. Was it that she wore her hair different that day? She was in an elegant dress? Her appealing heels? I dunno but whatever it was or combination of I fell hard.
I spent much time pursuing her. And while she didn’t seem exactly forthcoming with attention to me, despite all the attention I was giving her, she also wasn’t deflecting my attention. I spent months trying to garner her affection. I bought her gifts. Pampered her in any appropriate way I could. I complimented her constantly about what she was wearing, or her hair, or shoes (even bought her a pair of wedges and got the size right and she said I should be a shoe salesman with a huge smile), or anything I could think of.
Finally she told me she couldn’t see us as any more than friends. After months of not being direct about how she felt and (as I saw in hindsight) enjoying the attention that I gave her. I felt devastated. Heartbroken. She was the first woman I drank over. Lots of gin and Air Supply.
We can’t always anticipate other’s behavior and why they say or do what they say or do. For a long time I blamed myself. That I didn’t do something right. That I wasn’t good enough for her. She was too good for me. Out of my league. (Which she actually was.) I started seeing how desperate I acted. I felt ashamed that I let a woman do this to me. Even in my younger years I was a fairly confident man. But this woman reduced me to begging for attention or affection. I can’t say now that it was limerence for sure. But I am fairly certain she was my first LO. The glimmer happened in an instant and I was hooked. Thankfully there was no social media back in the late 90’s for me to obsess over her with. Cause I would have done it.
Disappointingly, I fell for limerence again. The difference was I was not available to be so. So your situation is quite different from my most current one. Now if you are tired of this old man’s ramblings I will bow out. š
Adam, what do you mean that I have no barriers? No boundaries?
Hi Anastasia,
I think the “barriers” Adam referred to was being married. Though we all struggle with limerence, I think that was the barrier he was referring to.
Hi Anastasia,
You said: āSo I keep trying and Iām the process losing my self respect and dignity.ā
ā¦āfeeling like Iāve just give away the last shred of my dignity. ā
My question is: if you consider your self respect and dignity to such an extent, what else are you willing to lose for a person who is unsure if he wants to date you, wants to just be your friend, and seems to be letting you down easy????
Advise: stop playing media games, itās not worth your dignity or self respect. If a man wants, or is really interested in a woman , thereās no barrier he wonāt cross to reach her. All other thinking itās just fantasy, illusion or obsession. Sorry for the tough love, but you asked for adviceā¦
Best wishes.
No, I donāt mind tough love but I am confused by your question. Isnāt this an outlet for our collective limerant woes? Otherwise none of us would be here. Why am I pining after a man who doesnāt want to date me? I think my brain is broken?
We had a sexual relationship for months although he never behaved like a bf, he opened the doors to his personal life and it got me hooked on hope it would become more. Then he dropped the friendship word and my world shattered.
Dear Anastasia,
Yes, this is a place to also tell of our woes and concerns with limerence and the sufferings it brings to us. I got carried away, since you mentioned to recognizing your self esteem and dignity were almost completely given away. I figured you wanted to go No Contact, therefore I wanted to encourage you. Sorry, I made the wrong assessment. Can you forgive me?
Going NC is a very cold turkey decision to make, itās not that easy as it seems. Many of us started it and at one point slipped back, then started again until one gets the knack of it, or the real value of it. Because a period of grief comes with it for which one isnāt prepared. Itās like grieving the death of a loved one, and it may take a long time to get healed, depending on how much and how long one was involved in the relationship.
So , I suppose, you want to dial back slowly and see what happens. Thatās another way of getting detached from LO or see if it fades away with time ? Iām not sure how that worksā¦depends on the limerent. I went No Contact immediately because I donāt like ambivalent situations, or one sided relationships , I canāt take doubting the LO , nor the suffering and uncertainty that comes with it. But thatās me. It hurts like a bastard but at least Iām not fooling myself with false hopes, if you know what I mean. And I donāt like to give control of my life to LO, too proud for that. So I chose Acceptance instead, and Iām working on itā¦
I wish you get discernment on what to do with your ongoing LO relationship.
Best wishes.
Stay strong and lots of courage.
I found a poem in the internet that seems to point to limerence, it rang a bell, (or how do you say)
Things I Do to Avoid Myself
fall in love / fall in obsession and call it love / put all my hope in someone else’s hands / all my dreams / all my wants / weave them together until they are one / laugh it off when I’m not what they want / drink so I can blame the tears on being drunk / go out to show the world I’m moving on / pretend it’s something else I’m running from
L.E.Bowman
Mila,
I agree with you that poem really sounds like describing limerence. Many people could identify those feelings, but few know anything about the term ālimerenceā, that runs along with āaddictionsā in chemical substance, sugar, or internetā¦
Limerent nurse says
FEBRUARY 1, 2024 AT 2:05 PM
āYou are in a unique position here at LwL because you are single, so hopefully youāll get to meet some other great single men who are worthy of your attention and loveā
Hardly unique at all, Iād say. There are very many contributors here, past and present, who are single and conscious of the advantages and disadvantages of that state.
I donāt feel so āluckyā to be single given that there are zero men out there who can even hold my interest besides my LO. Please donāt ask me how long Iāve been in this state because it reminds me Iāve been stuck for so many years Iāve actually lost count. It also doesnāt help matters that LO has stayed single all this time as well (so it seems from the damn social media posts)
Marcia says
FEBRUARY 1, 2024 AT 6:38 PM
āOne of the hardest things to grasp as a limerent is that it doesnāt matter what you do. Call the LO. Donāt call. Text. Donāt text. Plant yourself in places so you can run into them. Or donāt. None of it matters and it wonāt change anything.ā
Yes, indeed, Marcia. A tough truth amongst what I sometimes see as very well-meaning, but mawkish, observations and enabling comments. My current view is definitely skewed by my tough decision to finally accept that enough is enough.
I honestly would probably cringe at something I might have wrote as a “well meaning” comment that was very enabling when I was in limerence. I guess it comes from not wanting to let go of LO so you sub-consciously make light of the severity of what newcomers here are experiencing. I think I do better now. There are a lot of newcomers here that I don’t reply to because their situation is/was similar to mine. Sometimes I even write out a whole lengthy post and then while proof reading it be like “no I don’t need post”. There’s even been times I stop typing out a post because it was going wake up my limerent brain. It’s a very difficult balance to maintain posting here.
Wise words, Adam. I know what you mean and LwL is strangely addictive. Thatās not necessarily a bad thing, though, and huge respect to Dr L for all his selfless work.
Hi Adam, me too. I often draft replies but never post them. Newcomers especially as I know others on LwL will be more helpful and also sometimes newcomers just make a comment like a ship passing by, not staying in the harbor (like us) , which is also fine as they are not always necessarily seeking advice.
Hi Frederico, loving the energy and leadership on LwL right now !
Adam says
FEBRUARY 1, 2024 AT 2:18 PM
āNow if you are tired of this old manās ramblings I will bow out. šā
Adam! You are not old and you donāt ramble (except perhaps slightly when you downed a couple of beers).
I reckon that you are hugely respected in this rather unusual forum. So please stop being so self-effacing. I probably have thirty years plus on you – age creeps up so gradually. Enjoy what you have my old (but not so old) friend.
Lol frederico. It’s more an inside joke that I forget not every one knows. My supervisor whose only 6 years younger calls me that because he so desperately wants to look and act young. To his credit he does look quite a bit younger than he really is. So he refers to me as “the old man” especially to new hires so he can try feel younger. I am actually amused by it because it says more about him than my age.
I hope someday I have as good of a vocabulary as you. I had to google “self-effacing”. But yeah I do do that a lot. So thank you for the kind words.
š
I had to google āmawkishāā¦
Ha Ha, Mila. Hope youāre still doing ok. Iād better pipe down before I fill the ālatest commentsā list. x
Frederico,
Iām doing really ok! Iām surprised by my lack of rumination myself.
I like it when you fill the list, youāve got such a mellifluous name.
(Had to google that too)
Would I?
Abso freaking lutely.
Limerence was a terrifying experience for me, almost life threatening, awful, time consuming, so confusing and restless. The only thing that I got from it was the knowledge of behavior and signs that I simply cannot tolerate or ignore in the future.
What you have said sums it all up in a nutshell to me, Nens, and I do hope that you have found some peace.
āalmost life threatening, awful, time consuming, so confusing and restlessā
Thatās a very powerful description and Iām with you all the way.
It’s been brought to my notice that DoctorL has been hiding all my posts , hence the lack of replies . So much for a “welcoming community” . It’s his forum so he can do what he wants but no surprise everyone it buggering off to pastures new where people are allowed to speak without judging
Are you sure about this? Sometimes I have a hard time finding/recovering my posts, as there is no real method here of actually finding all my posts in one place. Just have to search more. Yes it can be aggravating.
Jim, Dr. L moved some of your first posts and the replies to a Coffeehouse, as was off topic to the blog topic you originally posted on ( not sure which one). Dr L does this when there is a lot of activity that is not pertinent to the original blog. So don’t take it personally. I think he did inform us of that, I’ve not spent my time to track back.
If he deleted other posts you have posted since, then that his perocative to do so. I trust Dr Ls judgement and dedication in managing this site.
Itās ridiculous. As soon as I feel finally not limerent any more, LO suddenly is able to suggest a date for a meeting without SOs and generally make some effort. Really? Such a clichĆ©- as soon as you pull back genuinely without wanting to play games, the other side starts to come after you.
The good thing is, I donāt rejoice and get pulled back in, I have to shake my head at this clichĆ©-like behavior or situation and am actually not that keen on the meeting. But also curious if I will keep my current non-limerence state of mind during and after. I think chances are good that I can manage that.
While I write, he sends another two messagesš¤·š»āāļø
Three now.
Itās really a bit laughable. I donāt mean him, I mean the whole situation.
Hi Mila. It is good that you feel that you will be under control after meeting LO one-one-one. I think that you are in a great place right now with regards to your LE, and it would be great for you to keep things in check in the future as well. Let us know how the meeting turns out.
Hey Mila,
This is why it is so exhausting. You get things settled in your head and then LO does something unpredictable, or life throws a curveball at you, or something else causes you to re-engage.
My advice – and you know this already – is not to overthink this. In fact, not to think about it at all. If you want to go, then only do so to please yourself and take control. Most importantly, his motivations dont matter. … As I was saying earluer in the week, the sheer futility of it all has been getting to me. And you are also where I am at, 52% limerent, remember?!
I am just cheerleading you here
Jeez – I dont see my friends this oftenš¤ It sounds really exhausting Mila!
Hi Mila, you know what, I’m actually not surprised. When you said earlier today that he suggested to see you this week I assumed he wanted one-on-one ( as it was missed last time) and indeed that is the case.
Bewitched gives very wise words as always! And I agree on the frequency thing. I don’t see or message very close friends anywhere near as often as you do with your LO š
In fact I realise I’m messaging here and especially to you more than my reality folks at the moment!
I would say stick to your plan, you are in control. Live and deliver on this empowerment. Dial it to the setting you want it to be at.
Hi Imho,
just reread your message and am honoured that at the moment you message me more than your real people (probably because they have no problems to get their shā¦ together, not like me)! Your messages are sometimes like a lifeline to sanity for me(also Bewitcheds and ABCDs of course).
For example, I reread now because now he is pissed off, I guess (only answering with thumbs up on my confirmation of the meeting and then not replying on the next message) and itās hard for me not to get anxious about it and try to establish warm contact again.
Itās some deeply rooted insecurity, I cannot stand people not liking me, I get sad and anxious, even if they are not that important to me. In LOās case itās worse, of course.
Itās an automatic response and I have to fight it with reason.
He has no reason to be pissed off other than I cooled down to a normal level of texting. So no reason to feel bad about it, right? It should be the best for both of us in the long run.
Hi Mila. I think that you are absolutely doing the right thing by dialing back.
I have been in your situation before. If LO did not respond to messages or did not “like” messages, I used to wonder why – did I do something wrong and is LO angry or annoyed with me (maybe she is who knows), does she have issues of her own that she is sorting out, is she doing the hot-cold thing on purpose to keep me hooked.
You can see my mind was wandering in all directions at super fast speed. All this caused an extreme amount of distress. Over a period of time, I could not keep up and it became a bit too much. So, now I avoid reaching out (6 weeks, and going strong).
I would say try not to worry about LO’s response too much, try to break the LO validation loop. Hopefully, LO will get the message and be graceful about it. You can do this!!
Hi ABCD,
Thanks for the encouragement to stay with the course.
Meanwhile he not only replied but suggested in another chat a further meeting with two other people, something we did last autumn, nice occasions but laden with limerence back then on both sides, I reckon.
Heās for sure suddenly so active because his SO isnāt in town this week. Itās actually difficult to find dates and Iāll try to get SO to come too.
Imho and Bewitched will shake their heads at all this social activity;) but I do actually work sometimes, too, believe it or notš
Iām still in a good place. Few weeks ago I would have become nostalgic at the prospect of this kind of meeting and excited that he suddenly makes such effort to see me without SOs, but now Iām not keen on it.
Still have to go through the test of seeing him in person.
6 weeks, wow. Going strong, ABCD!
I think itās all about the ruminations and thoughts to die down. I read āYou are not your brainā( cannot recall the authorsānames at the moment)and although the message isnāt new to me, it reinforces the fact that we train our brain on certain responses and can retrain it to a certain extent, or at least stop reinforcing the same bad habit over and over again.
I think we are doing really well!
Hi Mila, it seems you are socially in very high demand! š
His SO is out of town. Hmm, then you can potentially expect a ramp up in messages from him as well as these meet ups.
I guess it’s just being on your guard this week and not to overthink stuff and don’t feel like you annoyed him etc by short replies or late replies or whatever. You are simply extremely busy and there are other people and demands in your life than him, right ?!
Right!:)
His SO is actually away a lot and heās away a lot, so heās on his own a lot, which doesnāt help the messaging and probable fixation on me as someone to message, get validation from, send pictures to etc.
At the moment he only texts in the group chat which is fine by me.
I still feel I can handle it.
Itās a good thing I have to cut out alcohol, so no wine- induced nostalgia setting in, should this evening (the group chat is about) take place.
Hope you are going strong too, Imho.
Miss Mila
You shouldn’t ever have that concern here. You are one of the most sweet and kindest women here. You are a great asset to this community. Don’t doubt yourself young lady. š
Not necessarily a limerent update but upon a conversation I had with my wife this weekend I mentioned LO in my sleep. Momma didn’t bring it up despite it happening before our conversation.
On the 26th of December I went to the location she used to work at. First time since she left. I wanted to talk to my supervisor concerning the young lady that works with us now. Well just last week I got a call from him and he said that she (the current woman working for us) was puzzled as to why I traveled that far on a vacation day to voice concern for her that she was happy at this job with us.
He said I told her you are outdated. He still thinks women need to be saved. Jackass lol I mean he’s not wrong so I can’t be too mad. But anyway Momma said I had mentioned LO in my sleep along with some of the other ladies that have worked there since I started 5 years ago. Momma said she just figured it was a work related thing and didn’t wake me up. She said it was the starting lineup and made no deal of it.
I turned off the early alarm Sunday and laid in bed with Momma and went to the latter church service. She has been having pain and cramps and says my unusually high body temperature helps when I lay next to her. So I stayed in bed with her. Best morning ever.
Adam,
thanks so much for the compliment, it means much to me, my self-confidence just crawled a whole bit higher:)
I also think that your dream must have been work-related, why else say all the names of your co-workers. Sounds like a good sign that sheās maybe now in the same level as them and not high above, if you know what I mean.
Adam,
Well done on recognising a “jackass” when someone is being one. So much better than turning this against yourself. You are chivalrous and even your jackass-acting colleague knows this. So, there!
I am so glad that you had a nice weekend at home. Onwards, upwards, and I hope your lovely wife feels better this week.
Mila
You are most welcome. You are very positive addition to our community and I am glad that you have joined our rag tag team. And yes. Just from Momma’s reaction I think we are getting there together and it is wonderful.
Bewitched
Lol my wife absolutely would agree with you. She is not a fan of my boss at all. And she’s only met him once. But in the these ladies’ defense I told my wife when talking to her the other night “you country ladies don’t need me” and she says “nope”. And I am like “damn can you let me down easy?” Lol These southern American gals are all a breed all their own. Damn me falling for tomboys every time. š
(I know it doesnāt sound very pissed off to outstanders, but I know him)
Hi Mila:
“I think itās all about the ruminations and thoughts to die down. I read āYou are not your brainā( cannot recall the authorsānames at the moment)and although the message isnāt new to me, it reinforces the fact that we train our brain on certain responses and can retrain it to a certain extent, or at least stop reinforcing the same bad habit over and over again”.
—-
What you have said here is so true. Thoughts of LO still pop up in my head every now and then, but they do not cause as much sad feelings are before. There is no urge to check their social media – heck, I have not checked that now for weeks. All this points to serious progress, so well done to us!!
Adam,
I think thatās serious progress too! Since itās so easy to check social media. My LO doesnāt post much there anyway, luckily, Iām not sure if Iād have been as strong as you.
Way to go!!
Now I called ABCD Adam, because I read Adamās post before. Sorry!
Would I turn my limerence off, if I had a choice?
I think I’ll say a tentative “yes” to this question.
After lots of reflection, I think genuine limerence is actually quite rare, as opposed to crushes, which are quite common. Even people who called themselves serial limerents can probably only have a new LO/LE every 3-4 years at best. (A LE cycle that’s consistently shorter than two years probably wouldn’t be favourable to pair-bonding).
I think I’ve only had one LO/LE, although I’ve had a lot of non-limerent social interactions which were painful because I worried about rejection in those interactions too.
I think my LE lasted 25 years start to finish. (I’d say I was in the “altered state” of limerence between the ages of 16 and 40, inclusive. This is the first year of my adult life where I’m “out” of the “altered state”).
Nothing ever happened with my LO. Never got that close to him. It was just a fantasy that took place in my head. An LE starts, in my opinion, when one feels some hope the LO might like one back, and indulges in pleasurable fantasies about that person and the possible relationship that might develop someday. An LE ends when one feels indifferent toward LO, and would no longer accept an offer of a relationship from that person. (In my case, due to lack of common interests).
I’d be very upset if someone developed limerence for me. The reason I’d be upset if someone developed limerence for me is I’d feel that person didn’t really like me for myself. I’d feel that the limerent only liked the intense emotions they were experiencing inside of themselves, and I am not the true source of those emotions.
ā Iād be very upset if someone developed limerence for me. The reason Iād be upset if someone developed limerence for me is Iād feel that person didnāt really like me for myself. Iād feel that the limerent only liked the intense emotions they were experiencing inside of themselves, and I am not the true source of those emotions.ā
Very well thought.
I know what you mean. With my current LO for example I feel that heās limerent (or something similar, heās anyway clinging to our connection) 1. because Iām the connection to his former life/work while he decides to leave or stay, 2. because I gave him a lot of validation, praising his work and baking and whatnot, 3. because he likes pretty women around him and feels probably validated by that too, and it gives him something to daydream about when heās alone in his new town.
None of it has got something to do with me as a person. I know Iām a bit unfair. I guess one could make a list like that for any relationship, and also for me the other way round. Iām sure he likes me as a person too.
But it helps me to see it that way, and Iām not completely wrong.
Also, in my past LEs I also had the feeling that my emotions had more to do with myself than LO and they didnāt know what hit them sometimes, although reciprocating more or less.
Hi Sammy,
ā I think genuine limerence is actually quite rare, as opposed to crushes, which are quite common.ā
I believe this to be true. I had many crushes, love affairs, but none āaltered my mindā as this fantasy with LO since 20 months ago. I have never before had ruminations nor intrusive thoughts, or my mind taken hostage in such a way it rendered me helpless to control my thoughts . I once had a crush on someone that lasted for almost three years, but it didnāt alter my mind in anyway at all. I didnāt suffer like Iām suffering now for LO. I didnāt even cried at breakups with other romantic affairs, not even when I broke up with my current LO so many years ago. So Iām a thousand percent sure this is my only episode of limerence. And at this elderly age!!! Itās such a rare occurrence that itās incredible!
Have a nice peaceful week. Hugs
Let me make sure I indeed understand correctly. SAME LO for 2 and a half decades? Iām going on 7 years with the same LO and I thought I was in the 1% statistically. Iāve often wondered if Iām truly an anomaly because so far my brain tells me Iāll never fully ālet goā of him and oddly, I am accepting this with a certain embrace even. Life can be cruel at times and this fantasy of mine is my own comfort zone. Can anyone relate?
Additionally, Iāve watched Little Women last night, the film and I weeped when Laurie proposed to Joe and he turned him down. Such a profound example of unrequited love.
Would I take it back? I think I am so used to loving with limerance, I feel as it has become a part of my identity. Sad but true.
Hi Anastasia,
Yes the comfort of our own fantasies rings very true for me. Recognising that and calling it out is a great start and then really wanting to get a better balance between your own head and the real world is key. On another blog post right now (friendship after limerence) there is some good dialogue about personality types and attachment theories which I think is worthy of investing in your own self analysis. (Limerent Emeritus posts some links. )
Spend the time on you, who you are, your behaviors etc this puts the focus on you and not on your LO. I think you deserve that investment for yourself now and your future self.
We aren’t actors in a fuzzy movie accepting the forlorn endless suffering of unrequited love. We can be the change, if we really want it.
What do you want out of this life and what are the amazing things in this world you want to experience? (You don’t need to answer me, it’s just hopefully helpful for you to ask yourself )
FYI- apparently I have anxious attachment style of relating to others (which explains the push pull with LO who is most likely very DA – dismissive avoidant and an Aspie on top of it- my own assumption) so thanks but Iāve researched this extensively and yeah, unfortunately the clash of attachment styles doesnāt help my own situation
Thereās a lady named Ann on YouTube who goes by Crappy Childhood Fairy- has anyone heard of her? She has a significant following and one of her latest videos was about limerance and childhood wounding- the correlation to it, that is- highly educational
Hi Imho, Bewitched and ABCD,
you surely feel like friends by now, you are the only persons I can talk to about this and you always answer so kindly and unjudgmentally.
Some of my friends I message not often and see about every two or three weeks, but I count them to my best friends. With others the messaging can be frantic and we see each other at work and for coffee often (my younger colleague friends), but itās much more superficial. Some I see only once a year and the connection is still stronger than with my young work friends.
When LO was still a colleague I saw him at work but met maximum once in two months outside work. It got so much since he left, out of anxiety on both sides to lose connection. Now we meet every time heās in town, about every two weeks.
Actually even with my ānormalā friends I prefer short one to ones in town to elaborate meetings with family at home (of course they are nice once in a while), itās not much hassle and you can catch up with each other better.
But this time Iām the one whoās fidgeting because he suggested Wednesday which is not ideal for meā¦
Thanks for listening. Iāll see how it goes..
Hi all,
Mila I think you are doing so great. Well done for navigating the flurry of recent contact and LO initiative. He sounds like he is a bit anxious at the moment…
I totally get how it feels when there is a flurry of contact. I myself become slightly happier and, ironically also more critical, almost as though I can relax (fewer low feelings due to contact), while at the same time question it more.
I have been journalling the past few months and re-reading those entries I realised my moods are hilarious to me. – What a drama queen I can be! This also annoys me as my default is friendly, and – in matters of love – chilled-out and cool, above all things. My journalling reveals someone who is anything but!
One of the things I like about my LO is generally how he brings out my softer side. So, even though it not “me” / my usual reaction, I think it helps me manage my limerence when I get pissed off at him. He never knows about it, of course. The only thing better would be not thinking about him at all.
Training your mind on someone means eventually needing to untrain it.
Unless he does something that is an instant turn-off, like flirts with another woman in front of me, I must resign myself to untraining my mind.
Good luck this week Mila! I hope my thoughts help in some way (š!)
āI myself become slightly happier and, ironically also more critical, almost as though I can relax (fewer low feelings due to contact), while at the same time question it more.ā
That got me thinking- of course you are right, itās easy to be relaxed and ānah, I donāt need it anymoreā about it when the other side is chasing you – as we have seen in the one instant he didnāt message back, itās harder when LO seems to pull back/cool downā¦
So the last word isnāt spoken about the end of this LE.
I know about the soft side you speak about- I also like my soft side, I like to āloveā people and see the best in them, and the hardening and closing that is necessary to get rid of the limerence doesnāt feel good to me, it has been a problem.
Thanks for your thoughts, they definitely bring me forward.
(My now trained reflex on kissing Emojis- donāt write one back- works! Even with youš
But you deserve one:š)
Hi Mila, Bewitched, and all:
“One of the things I like about my LO is generally how he brings out my softer side. So, even though it not āmeā / my usual reaction, I think it helps me manage my limerence when I get pissed off at him”.
–
This resonates with me as well. I would really not want to not like LO, as in general, I am easy going, and because its LO :), but, in this case, the hardened stance is needed and necessary to get over the LE. It is kind of like a necessary evil I guess. The way I am looking at it is that each day without LO contact is making me more resolute.
Hi ABCD,
āthe hardened stance is needed
and necessary to get over the LE.ā
So this is my Mantra for today;)
since LO is really searching for contact. The group thing is probably not going to happen this time heās in town, so itās only the short meeting tomorrow.
He already tried to make more of it in a quite stealthy way (too complicated to explain) and I shot it down and am quite proud of it. He hasnāt replied to that which means I was right in guessing what he was trying to do.
Iām deliberately taking a not so nice view of his actions and suggestions, I know that itās not wholly fair but it helps and also thereās a grain of truth in the negative view too.
But I know that I could do this to any friend or acquaintance- put the negative spin on everything- and itās actually not who I am, and how I want to look at people and lifeā¦
Itās hard but I still think itās a good way to get out. And it will work unless he suddenly surprises me with a nice or selfless gesture, which he will not do, I hope.
Maybe I should be a tad nicer so that he doesnāt get the idea he has to make gestures. Itās kind of a strategy game at the momentšbut I feel Iām getting there, out of limerenceā¦
Sorry for all the detailed rambling again, it does help me , nobody has to answer, just bear with meš
Hi Mila, he obviously is wanting more social contact generally maybe. You can’t be expected to be available all the time just cause he’s in town.
Stay cool in every sense š let us know how it goes tomorrow.
Btw thanks for your nice words on here thanking “us lot” on Sunday, I’m catching up a bit as I had a busy weekend, lots of distractions.
Hi Imho,
yes, I actually understand him, heās alone and a bit nostalgic for old friends here, but then I donāt have to accommodate him on that if itās not good for me.
Iām back to a quite truthful view of him without the rose-tinted glasses, I just hope I can keep it during today and tomorrow, and, very important, not to slide back into a lot of texting afterwards.
I want to be like you and not refresh this site so oftenšbut I feel Iām at a crucial point right now.
Thanks for your support, also Bewitched!
ššš
Hi Mila:
Yeah, devaluing LO in one’s mind and dialling back on contact is hard, but its still the best option.
Good luck for the group meeting. In my experience, the group meetings seem easier to handle LO-wise, as compared to the one-on-ones with LO. I would say try to play it cool with LO and mingle with other guests. I am sure you can come out the meeting feeling good, all the best!
Hi all,
the group is unfortunately very small, it just reduced itself to 3šbut that doesnāt change my resolve. I donāt want to cancel it because it would be a bit mean after all the date searching and also because Iām really quite curious and think itās actually a good thing to have a reality check again.
Iāll take you all with me in small size in my pocket, and when I start to slide back into limerent feelings, you will all wave your tiny sticks around, hit me and squeak in your tiny voices ādonāt destroy the good work! Stay strong, you can do it! Everything futileā etc.
š
ABCD, I believe you have won “star pupil of the week” award once again ! This is for your determination and resoluteness. We salute you.
Hi all,
Great stuff, ABCD. You are showing us the way and, yes, we salute you.
Mila – “Maybe I should be a tad nicer so that he doesnāt get the idea he has to make gestures. Itās kind of a strategy game at the momentšbut I feel Iām getting there, out of limerenceā¦”
I agree that a little bit of strategic manipulation is no harm, in this case. The unfortunately truth is that, as soon a you give him what he wants, he will switch into Mr Complacent again.
And – lest we forget – the entire thing is futile anyway. Keep repeating it to self x 1000……
Bewitched,
the thing is, I donāt care so much;) I donāt want him to be suddenly so nice that I slide back again, so better keep him a bit complacent.
Suddenly the group thing is on again for tonight. Well. Iām actually curios how it goes, if I can keep my detached stance. Will keep to the other guests.
ABCD is my shining example!
Thanks Imho! Just trying to face adversity and trying to come out strong. I am sure all of you can do it too! šŗ to that!
Adam,
This one’s for you and Damnit.
“Lady” – Styx (1973)
https://youtu.be/Ea4pH5hpxHk?feature=shared
In 1983, I thought LO #2 owned this song. I had the wrong woman but I wouldn’t know that until 1988.
Thanks Bewitched, the support of all of you means a lot as we work our way through LE.
You make an interesting point. In the past, if I did not reach out or seek LO, lets say at a group gathering, LO would mostly reach out immediately, perhaps to seek validation, and I always used to reciprocate. So, it became like a see-saw match. Its probably best to just get out of this loop, towards freedom.
Don’t worry, Mila, you’ve got this! We will be with you in spirit, encouraging you.
š
I allow myself not to get immersed in the ongoing discussion what other limerents should do or not do, because I allow myself to be selfish and only watch myself and do what I think is the best for me to get rid of my special case of LE.
I need from time to time to chew on some things that I could never utter to other persons, and I think the progress I made is due to the completely unjudgmental responses from others here.
The āpolitically correctādisplay remorse and guilt and knowing what would be morally correct is anyway there in my mind the whole time, I donāt need to reinforce it here, I need a platform to empty the other thoughts intoā¦As long as I donāt lose my goal out of sight (ending limerence, keeping friend)I allow myself anything that might help, and be it rechewing of texts or whatever, and I do apologize for that.
And yes, I did make progress, I think. I met LO at the group thing and today one on one.
The group thing was not really group but only 3, I felt a bit empty and awkward the whole time because I had shut myself up against LO and couldnāt relax the whole time, wishing I was home instead.
But todayās meeting was good. We had the same warm connection going as before limerence, without me always willing him to give more signs of affection or hint at something or touch. We spoke relaxed about a lot of things, also about work and if he might come back or not. Now chances are a bit more that he stays away, and I could listen to that without the anxiety and sorrow to lose him that I had before, and advise him neutrally as a friend who just wants the best for him.
Quite proud of that.
Iāve got the feeling that now, afterwards, is the even more crucial time- warm friendly feelings are back, always a danger to slide back into something a bit more, so now I should really be on my guard, not give in to texting too much and thinking of him. Now is the time to distract myself and stay at that nice level of having a good connection that feels normal. I believe I can make it and prove Marcia wrong š that you cannot have an ex-LO in your life.
But I think mine is a really a special case, in that I was in a non-limerent friendship with LO for such a long time, I think it is easier to go back to that than from knowing someone only as an object of desire.
Hi Mila, I like your eloquent comment, from the heart. I agree, we all have own individual situations/ complexities that many of us are struggling with, that we simply can’t work through on our own nor with friends or family. Hell, most people including therapists haven’t even heard of limerence let alone know how to treat it! So yes thanks we have lwl community here.
(there is that other anon forum spin-off from here to consider- it needs a sign-in)
More importantly, I’m very glad the back-to-back meet ups have mostly a good outcome for you and that you are getting back to pre-limerence zone with your friend. Let’s call him your friend and not LO here on ?! Is that pushing it ? I would also say that maybe try to store your thoughts right now to refer back to for coming days/ weeks . Or copy and paste your post here somewhere secure to refer back to, in case you need to reassure or remind yourself. Let’s stay connected
Hi Imho,
Thanks for your ongoing support! I hope all is well with you!
As I just wrote to Marcia (working my way backwards in posts, I surely missed some)
I still feel in a good place.
After the very nice f2f meeting I feel relaxed and benevolent towards him without any limerent yearnings. He texts as expected more now, but I hold back without being rude or thinking too much about it.
Of course I work a lot at the moment, might be harder if there would be more time to ruminate, but I honestly feel Iāve managed a significant step forward here.
(I joined the spin-off forum without posting there, but couldnāt really get a hold onto it, it feels better here somehow.
But of course we could take Bewitched or whoever wants to meet there if we go on the nerves of the other people hereš¤·š»āāļøand write private messages, but Iām actually not sure if that is really possible there, would have to check.)
Hi Mila, really good to hear. You are in control and have a great plan too. Work busy surely helps. Just be guarded that quiet time will come and thoughts can sneak up on you. I find this happens for me at least. Not to be negative, just be mindful !
I’m ok. In dormancy period and just not initiating anything at all. I have some good ‘excuses’ to contact him, but I haven’t.
I will share more I guess when I figure it out further.
I’m also not sure about the other forum. I can be a bit ‘in and out’ depending what’s happening, so don’t want to commit too much if you know what I mean.let me know if you pursue it further. Dr. L created coffeehouses to allow folks to go way off-topic and we should respect that diversity in my view ( sharing last night’s dreams, poetry creations, our diet plans, emoji choice strategies etc etc!! )
But I’m feeling a little bit wary now shall we say. I’m probably just over-sensitive. Blame my Myers Briggs result. Ha ha!!
Hi Mila & IMHO,
I think that I am obsessed enough that a single forum is all I can manage – I definitely have obsessive tendencies – and was wailing earlier today about how long it takes me to complete work things because of this. But if you were keen, I could be persuaded š
Its helpful to have people in the same setting /stage to bounce off, which is what I think we’ve have had all along. The other points of view also keep us honest š
I am amazed by @Mila and @Problem Child’s progress and have made a mental note to send a congrats message. Wow. I don’t want to jinx it by congratulating too early, but even getting this far is celebration-worthy!!
With boxing gloves up against complacency, of course š„š
Hi Bewitched,
“I definitely have obsessive tendencies ā and was wailing earlier today about how long it takes me to complete work things because of this.”.
Oh my !! Me too is all I can say. Im often off with the fantasy fairies ignoring my to-do list or way into obsessive detail and taking too long on one task to make it perfect.
I have a particular thing which is seen as “related to OCD” that I can’t even disclose here as it’s so embarrassing to admit !
Anyway I also will congratulate Problem Child as it’s a breakthrough. I’m just processing if to do something similar.
Appreciate the balanced view you brought here btw š
Hi Bewitched and Imho,
I couldnāt manage two forum (fora?) either, I spend way too much time here as it is. We can just wait and see.
Dormancy sounds good, not initiating even better.
So whatās your Myers Briggs , Imho?;) Iām INFJ or was the last time I testedšit seems to vary, thatās why I donāt believe too much in it.
But what is this about doing something similar to what Problem Child did?
Do you mean disclosing and cutting him off? Please think twice (or thrice;)) about disclosing. Iām so glad I didnāt disclose now.
Bewitched, itās a bit too early for congratulation in my case, Iām still wary.
Thereās a hard test coming up, he will work at my side for a week soon, work being where we click. But Iām quite confident that I can sail these waters too.
Mila,
āI believe I can make it and prove Marcia wrong š that you cannot have an ex-LO in your life.
But I think mine is a really a special case, in that I was in a non-limerent friendship with LO for such a long time, I think it is easier to go back to that than from knowing someone only as an object of desire.ā
That beautiful loving, longing feeling in limerence, as you have described before, does not come easily and so hard to keep alive in oneās life. So cherish it when you still have it!
As long as you could stabilize your LE downside moods and stay away from sweets, I wish you the best luck to keep your ex-LO (a long-term friend) in your life! (I so want to see a āsuccessfulā case in this ghost āfamily)
Hi Snowphoenix,
but this longing is exactly what I want to eraseā¦I want to enjoy my friendship with this really nice and special guy without all the longing and expectations and general limerent hassle;)
I know what you mean by it being beautiful, it was beautiful at times, but I always comes with pain and guilt, I donāt want it anymore, especially not in one of my precious friendships.
I do stay away from sweets quite successfully too, by the way:)
@Mila,
Everything comes with a āpriceā, one LE feature is ālongingā. Itās hard to live with for some people, but not a big deal in others who can hold ālongingā in peace.
I donāt know how to get rid of it, once had it, and then go back to your previous āfriendshipā stage, without some kind of ādeprogrammingā of LOās images in your mind.
Congratulations on your progress in staying away from sweets.
āI donāt know how to get rid of it, once had it, and then go back to your previous āfriendshipā stage, without some kind of ādeprogrammingā of LOās images in your mindā
Well, that deprogramming is exactly what Iām trying to do all the time here and on my own.
Deprogramming has to be processed and achieved by each limerent self, no Gods of any world, or any āghostsāā words here, could specifically help.
Mine is psychologically āassistedā by my many bizarre dreams, which was certainly somehow affected by the conscious mind during waking hours. So I believe deprogramming is related to logical thinking as well.
Nowadays when I encounter LO, it feels like I was dealing with another colleague with genuine cordiality and sincere care. The phantom, reveries, misunderstandings, arguments, resentmentsā¦. of past 6 year seem to be a serial night dreams, so hardly associated with LO standing in front me. I could even remember his realistic face better now, outside the campus.
That longing is still deep inside me, accompanied by a stinging sadness, but has no effects on my natural outlook and daily mandates. I feel such longingās sweetness, astronomically better than indifference or emptiness there before meeting LO.
Mila,
“I believe I can make it and prove Marcia wrong š that you cannot have an ex-LO in your life.”
I can’t really speak to having an ex-LO is one’s life. I suppose it may be possible to go NC and then see the LO some time later and find that the limerence is gone and resume a friendship. I hesitate to say that hoping for that is a good idea in that most limerents will white-knuckle it until they can see the LO in the future and not really get over the limerence. They’ll keep the limerence on “low simmer.” It sounds like another workaround. And if there’s one thing a limerent knows how to do, it’s a workaround. š I’ve tried a lot of them myself. Tried all kinds ot tactics to not go NC. They didn’t work.
Hi Marcia,
of course you are definitely right in most cases.
I just think that my current LE is special. I had two before, and this one is different. LO is my longterm friend, for whom Iāve never been limerent before, and I feel that I can come back to that friendship. You donāt have to believe me, but I think I can make it in his special case, because no disclosure or other harm was done, I know him very well with all his good and bad sides, and I know it all came from his leaving work, some deep and probably unrelated anxiety of loss was triggered inside me- but now I feel I got that under control, and I donāt feel the obsession and expectations anymore.
I donāt want to swear on it, but for the moment I can smell the freedom;) and Iām resolved to cling to it.
Mila,
It may work. I don’t know. I’ve never been friends first with an LO before becoming limerent.
There was a poster on here who became limerent for a friend (Jadieux) and she eventually had to go NC.
I also know that a limerent will try to do almost everything possible to keep the LO in their lives. I tried various LC tactics. I didn’t even see him that much at the end of the LE but the LE was still there, still kind of gnawing at me despite waning, and running into him, no matter how infrequently, still bothered me. To be completely done with it, I had to go NC.
Marcia,
Weāll see, of course I cannot know it for sure.
Chances are good that he will leave town for good anyway this year, and this will make it far easier for me, of course, and I think itās a good sign that I do accept this prospect now without regret.
Itās also a good sign that I have neither angry feelings towards him like I had in the last weeks nor too affectionate emotions. Maybe Iām off the see-saw, who knows, time will tell.
I have to be on my guard with this, but I should not forget to be on my guard also not to let any other limerence develop ever again. You managed that, didnāt you? So I can manage that toošŖš»
Mila,
“should not forget to be on my guard also not to let any other limerence develop ever again. You managed that, didnāt you? ”
Yes. I did have a little blip a while back. This guy started subtly fliritng with me at this sports/group activity I signed up for. I went back a second time — yes, to see him — and was he noticeably flirting with this time, touching me, etc. Did I mention his wife was at both to these events? HA HA HA . There’s something about the wife being there that throws cold water on things. I decided I wasn’t going to go back and a few weeks later, I realized I hadn’t even thought about him. And I’m glad the whole thing was nipped in the bud quickly. I don’t want to get sucked into that again.
But I was getting sucked up at first because I was checking the group sign-up sheets, hoping he was on one of them — and she wasn’t. I could feel myself getting a little engergized by it. It’s easy to get really close to the edge.
Marcia,
I think is inevitable to meet people here and there who glimmer, and itās human and normal to be attracted and maybe even do some first steps towards them in reflex.
But then you realized that itās the same old story of limerence to a married guy and got the hell out of there, and thatās what I hope I will do too the next some glimmer guy, married or not, saunters byā¦
Mila,
“But then you realized that itās the same old story of limerence to a married guy and got the hell out of there”
That’s exactly what happened.
At one point … I thought: I’m doing it again.
I think this analogy is apt for the present discussion about the community being at different stages in limerence and how we all get through it different ways.
Pancakes are pancakes. But we all eat them different. I like mine topped with cottage cheese (don’t look at me like that lol) Some like syrup, honey, butter, fruit, or chocolate chips, etc. We all go about eating them the way we like but at the base of it all is the pancake; limerence.
Some of us are trying to stop eating pancakes because they are not the healthiest for us. But we don’t throw eating pancakes in the face of people that haven’t gotten away from them yet.
I think that the varied walks of life and stages of limerence we all come from is why this community is so helpful. I got the tough love when I first got here from Marcia. And I am glad I did. There was one point that I didn’t think she was going to talk to me ever again for something I posted. L.E. was there too in the beginning with logic and science. Miss Lovisa with kindness and understanding. And other people that contributed to my healing that don’t post here much anymore especially Limmy.
And of course Dr L with the blog itself. But having people to talk to help digest what Dr L posts is very helpful to recovery. I hope I can try not to be so negative about limerence. It probably doesn’t help people that reeling from the first stages of it. But it is hard not to look at my case and see it as a complete disaster to my life. Am I the same person that I was before it? No. But damn I don’t want to go through that again.
Adam,
I absolutely appreciate your view on limerence and your experiences!
But please refrain from this pancake talkššiām supposed to stay away from sugar and this really makes me hungry:)
Adam, Iām putting a brief post here because I messed up slightly on the blog which was actually intended for spouses affected by limerence, I was slow on the uptake.
Thank you for your very kind words which I have carefully noted.
The truth about my LO connecting is this. Against the wise advice of friends here several months ago, I sent family birthday cards and then Christmas messages. These were triggering for me, even to send, and, LO being well-mannered, they were briefly acknowledged on WhatsApp.
I do need to finally stop initiating contact now, for everyoneās sake. The pain, exacerbated somewhat by my own actions, has to be controlled and curtailed from now on.
Sleep well, my friend,
f
Me, I wanted to post an update, just for myself, but the site didnāt want to post itā¦ I take that a a sign that I should stop rambling too much about the minutiae of my LE-killing, maybe itās for my best not to take everything apart. Having written the post helped, maybe I donāt have to see it posted.
I hope you are all well and getting on with your life, LOs pushed to the background!
Hi Mila, please try again tomorrow if you still want to share. Don’t feel under pressure to not post here ref. the minutiae. For me Coffeehouses are there for that….. anything goes, within reason (sharing plans on LwL for attaining world domination may not be appropriate š) . It helps us share and figure it out ourselves and with the help of others. We are all mostly trying to move one step on the right direction.
I will let you know if you get to be a bore !
Hey Mila,
Hoping all is well. I assumed it was, actually, just got that feeling when I read your post that you were doing good. Its a dynamic time for you.
“I hope you are all well and getting on with your life, LOs pushed to the background”
For me, yes, LO is kind of neutral for me right now. I don’t struggle to keep him out of thoughts as much as before. I had a nice weekend with the family, actually worked for a lot of it, and just looking forward to a calm week at work now. Have a good one, if you can. Try to do something lovely with the SO š
Hi Imho and Bewitched,
thanks for immediately responding!
Iām still going strong actually.
Iām ill at the moment and my post was about some minor details where I realized that I have to fight too negative thoughts about LO as well as positive ones- getting pissed off with him because heās not nice/considerate enough is only the other side of the limerence coin.
Also, I effectively shut conversation down today by mentioning my SO in texting (surprising how well I can read him- as soon as I wrote SOs name he only replied with some Emoji, as I expected) and wanted a pat on the head;)
The thing is, SO isnāt that great at being nice when Iām ill either, of course heāll cook and stuff, but never some nice gesture like bringing tea to my bed or somethingā¦ itās not fun being ill with himšand I already know that heāll forget Valentineās day and I wonāt.
So, basically, Iām not feeling well and am not feeling very amiable about both SO and LO šor about anyone really apart from my kids, but I guess my spirits will lift once my head gets a bit less heavy.
I just wanted to have a bit of a whine which I had nowā¦
Bewitched, sounds like you are doing well, too, Iām glad you had a nice family weekend!
I hope you and Imho are in good health šŖš»world domination, why actually not?
š
Hey Mila,
I am so glad that you are still going strong.
This is very insightful “getting pissed off with him because heās not nice/considerate enough is only the other side of the limerence coin.”
I also recognise that my getting annoyed with my LO is just another expression of limerent over over thinking. As yours is a friend it is slightly different – but not very different – since we dont ask friends to respond like a significant other would. We discussed this before and you have progressed way beyind that thinking these days, like a higher-level awareness of what is actually happening with your own reactions.
I hooe you dont mind if I say this: Your SO might need a little encouragement this year (for š), if your mind has been distracted recently?
I hope you feel better soon. Sending lots of š¤š¤š¤
Hi Bewitched,
I just realized that when I accidentally turn my phone sideways while writing, the whole post gets deletedš
Well, I progressed in that I recognize inappropriate and futile reactions from my side much faster and donāt act on them most of the time. Like now I answer politely when he texts even when Iām pissed off for the wrong reasons.
But I have to say, thereās no balance here again somehow. I mean, all this texting, much more frequent than with other friends, kissing Emojis (not from my side anymore!), but now that Iām feeling unwell and could use kind words, he stopped texting, I guess because I put him off with my SO- mentioning (like āgee, youāve got your SO, you donāt need meā (petulant voice, crossed arms)). Iām glad of my other friends who are being genuinely nice without hidden agendas.
My SO is bad at romantic
stuff. Iām sure if I would for example spring some surprise Valentines dinner reservation on him, he would maybe appreciate the gesture but wouldnāt really want to go because āheās got so many things to doā .
So I wonāt waste effort at that, Iāll get something nice , maybe to eat, that doesnāt require effort from his side and thatās it.
At the moment heās so involved in his projects that I honestly cannot feel any guilt over having had a distracted mind.
But I think Iāll suggest that we make time to do something nice the two of us, doesnāt have to be on Wednesday.
Valentineās Day is anyway something not really traditional in my country, it came over from the States and some people donāt acknowledge it at all.
Have you planned something for Wednesday?
Dear Mila,
Firstly, thanks for the tip about the phone, its not great to lose a carefully thought-out post, and it has happened to me too!
About V-Day, like you, its an imported holiday and people here either decide to engage, or often don’t. I always think that its both silly and also an opportunity to pay attention.
In our case, we make a pact every year to either do it, or not to bother. Sometimes when it falls during a busy mid-week, we don’t bother too much. However, we have decided to do it this year, spread it out over the two weekends, last weekend and next weekend. I made a cake last weekend (the weekend just gone), and we all exchanged cards, including our daughter who had made us both a card! He got me a small bunch of flowers to make the kitchen smell nice. We are not going out for dinner because that just seems like hard work š Instead we will have a cocktail at home and I will make a nice dinner. And we will all watch a movie together.
If your hubby is very busy and distracted with projects, he would probably enjoy a non-fuss gesture, like having some nice food in, so what you are planning sounds absolutely lovely. Some people find odd things romantic, like last Friday, I solved a problem in excel, and shared with my hubby who was having the same issue. Very romantic š
I always think that small gestures mean a lot in a long marriage. I mean, we already do the big things very well, and maybe its nice to pay attention to little details, for the week that’ in it. Even bringing someone a cup of tea can mean a lot (a you know, on your sick bed!!!).
Anyone reading these posts who does not have an SO should totally spoil themselves, with something nice they wouldn’t usually do. Why not have a day / week in the year when you focus on those you love (including yourself).
Mile, I hope that you feel much better very soon and can continue to be so clear-sighted about everything that is going on.
“My SO is bad at romantic stuff.”
Mila
At this point in almost 25 years I am too. But yet I remembered dates and things about HER so I really have no excuse. But yesterday I was shopping at the store and I bought her a card. I hid it in my truck and am going to write in it Wednesday morning and leave it with her in the morning while she is asleep and ask her to be my valentine and ask her out on a date for that night. If she’ll say yes or not I guess remains to be seen. But hopefully she does. If she does I gotta figure out what to wear. If she will say yes I got to look my best for her. Make no doubt in anyone in the public’s mind she’s my lady. š
Bewitched,
wow, you take Valentines Day much more seriously than usšspread over two weekends and with cards! No one here I know of writes cards, and with us it was a bunch of flowers, small present or heartshaped cookie, but actually never a real date or something.
Thereās a small handmade cookie and tartelette shop here where I ordered the Valentines Special (some Valentine themed cookies etc) to be picked up the day before, I actually would have time to bake something myself, but really, I wonāt make an effort when SO wonāt. He will only feel bad (and he WILL forget, like every year;)
Iām actually sometimes a bit disappointed by the lack of romance and of someone pampering me in my life , but know at the same time that SO brings all the really important stuff. Anyone can buy a bunch of red roses.
The thing is, that I like and appreciate the little gestures myself but stopped making them because thereās only so much you can do one-sided for a longer time.
He does make them from time to time, but very seldom. I still feel loved because we simply have different love languages I guess, but sometimes ā¦*sigh
But if you think now that that would lead me back to LO, not at all. While I know that he and his SO wonāt forget V Day, with them itās more like a duty or something- itās v day so one simply has to bake or buy something. They are great ones for rules;)
Thatās not me, either.
Adam,
I think thatās very sweet!
Tell us if she consented to be your Valentine?:)
Donāt worry too much about what to wear, make sure she feels comfortable and knows what to wear herself;)
Hey Mila,
My VDay does seem a bit extreme, on reflection š But we had a tough few years as a family and this is the first year that we can move on from that. So its a bit of an unusual year, I’d say.
A “Valentines Special” cookie is nicely balanced, especially with an SO might forget!! You can enjoy it with a cup of tea. And you won’t fall too far off the no sugar wagon – bonus points for that š
Adam’s plans sound the most romantic of all. Go Him!!!!!
Spring is only around the corner and its a time of rebirth for all of us, if we choose it. I am reflecting a bit on that, and trying to be a better wife, especially after reading on the SO blog. It gives me pause for thought. Adversity (see above) does make me focus on what is important, so I can be grateful for the hard lessons learned. I am a work in progress, but I hope that I am going in the right direction. š·
Very nice posts Bewitched ! Sounds like you have much to appreciate and celebrate following some adversities.
Enjoy all those small joys this week ! You sound in a great place.
I’m also feeling reflective on the SO blog and the other exchange before. ( You know the one )
Need to pull self into the real world not fantasy world.
Mila, sorry you are ill. Hope you get well soon. Do demand hot drinks with honey and comforting words are delivered to your bedside immediately!
To answer your previous question I’m the other INF ! No surprise there. Seems a whole bunch of us here fit into these two types!
On the disclosure question you posed following Problem Child/Empowered Womans updates, I don’t know. I’m just thinking a line needs to be drawn at some point. I’m still figuring it out in a reflective somewhat melancholic place. Don’t worry I won’t do anything rash.
Best wishes
Hi Imho.
Very often Iāve had the urge to draw a line in my LEs. The thing is, one has to be absolutely sure to stick to it. And when you are in the right state of mind and sure that this is it, this is the line, then you actually donāt need any lines any more.
Donāt know if I get across what I mean. Itās the need for closure, but closure might be an illusion as long as you need it. Donāt know how to express myself, sorry.
I wouldnāt disclose as a means to force closure. It can go off in any unexpected direction and have repercussions, and it will definitely close some paths for you, you can never undo it.
I would advise against it in your case where LO is far away anyway.
But thatās my spontaneous reaction. Iām sure you will figure something out for yourself, you are so smart and insightful.
Hi Bewitched,and also Imho,
Well, the cookies are all for him, I wonāt eat themš they also have a big cookie with āSelfloveā and a heart that wraps arms around itself, maybe I should have bought that for me:)and all of us!
I donāt think your V Day sounds extreme, it just sounds really, really nice.
You really sound well! Iām still more in a āIām ill and the world is a bad placeāmoodā¦
LO sent suddenly a picture of his whole family including his SO, what a surprise;)
I hope to God he wonāt send me a picture of what he will have baked for his wife on V day, heās capable of that because heās so vain with his baking. But stop! There we go with the wrong side of the limerence coin again. No, I will be glad to receive this photo of a friend who loves his wife!š
Dear Imho,
Lovely to hear from you. Indeed I know what you mean – these have been a few very thoughtful and healing weeks for us here on LwL.
I have been thinking about what you alluded to regarding disclosure/closure. Like Mila, I am slightly concerned that it will not have the intended effect. I think Mila’s advice about how things might play out is spot-on. In this situation, one has to be hyper aware of the sneaky, self justifying, deluded etc. limerent mind at play. Its just so hard to see the wood for the trees. And, like Mila said, if one was truly in the right frame of mind to draw a line under the LE, one should have no real use for disclosure.
As your LO is distant from you and not work-related, you have a bit more latitude than I do, say, to retain your dignity and walk away with head held high. But I’d still think about how things might feel in 12 months’ time. Any reservations you have now are important to pay attention to.
Just two cents!
Please let us know about how you are feeling if you need a sounding board (I know sharing on a public forum is – tricky).
May you feel wisdom and tranquility in the coming days….š¤šš»
Thank you Bewitched and Mila. I hear you and thank you. I have re-read your comments a few times to try to fully understand and sink in.
So, I deduce that its for me to find and draw that line within myself and not do it externally, however, subtle/coded/well-meaning or whatever which would be totally selfish and exposing and I will probably regret in the future and I may not be able to sustain anyway. Yes I get it. Thank you. Difficult couple days ….don’t know why. Today I felt like LO was almost inviting/ expecting some kind of valentine gesture/funny reference from me. I resisted and sent hearts to my best friend instead. Sending you too ā¤ļøā¤ļø
“Tell us if she consented to be your Valentine?:)”
Mila
Yes she did. We are going to spend the night at home together. Then this weekend she agreed to let me take her out on a dinner date and then go to the store and get clearance Valentines candy lol
Imho,
ā Today I felt like LO was almost inviting/ expecting some kind of valentine gesture/funny reference from meā
Yeah, whatever, but he didnāt make a gesture himself. Iāve got experience with this kind of LO, I tell you- hoping for a nice bit of validation but never put the effort/exposure in himself.
Mine didnāt text all day after texting a lot yesterday, Iām very sure on purpose because either 1. he feels itās inappropriate (I hope thatās the reason), or 2. he wants me to text so he has the validation of me texting first on V day, either case Iām pretty sure heās aware of it.
He can do what he pleases, I wonāt text for sure, neither today nor tomorrow other than answering politely if he texts.
My SO forgot Valentineās day but my daughter reminded him yesterday evening – which led to him still not getting me anything, only working on his projects.
So since Iām also still not feeling too well, Iām a bit – not disappointed because I know him, but itās actually a bit bleak that I can predict so well that I wonāt get acknowledged on V day anyway..
So bleak is what Iām feeling today.
Adam,
So good to hear that she accepted and you are going to have a proper date! Let me vicariously be happy for youā¤ļø
And Imho,
I think itās the right decision. You would have regretted it, Iām almost sureā¦
Send you thisš!
And one for Bewitchedš
Happy Valentineās Day, Mila! Iām sorry that your LO and SO didnāt come through for you today.
Ašfor you too, Lovisa!
I know itās a bit childish from me, but Iām still a little bit sad- not at all because of LO, I donāt think much about that, but because of SO. He doesnāt see any meaning in V day, and thatās it. Itās the same as that he always gives me presents for birthdays or Christmas that he likes. Itās never doing/giving something that only I would like(like a valentines gesture).
At the same time, he shows his love in other ways. As I said, Iām anyway not my full self after being ill, I let my mood be influenced too much by it..
Dear Imho and Mila,
Sending you both a VDay šš
Our day got derailed by a family emergency but this is increasingly how (mid)life goes, now. We ended up dashing off to that – just like recent significant birthday plans – all went out the window because of health issues in the family. Its all sorted again, now, so it is fine. I am just left with a bit of an anti-climax. But you know, big stuff trumps little stuff so its ok. We are privileged to be in a position to sweat little things (nothing I like to do better than sweat the small stuff šš¤£)
But, I am a bit annoyed for you, Mila!! Thats frustrating as hell. Your SO will probably do something v practical and pragmatic to impress you, but no gestures, it seems.
Did he like the cookie you got him? It seems like you need to spoil yourself. Something expensive.
I read your rumination thread and happened to be tied up so could not reply. But I feel your pain. You must harden your heart a little bit, the LO will forgive you, but right now just do what it takes to get over him. He’s going to be fine for a little while. Ultimately you will be a better friend if not limerent, so the end goal justifies the discomfort. You dont always have to be perfect either. You’re allowed to have a few off-weeks, right? Nobody expects you to be perfect. You are quite hard on yourself, I think?
Imho, well done you on resisting him today. Its a bit like the lead up to Christmas, dont you think? Its all just too Loaded. I was also wondering whether I’d get a work message today but I didnt and i am glad. Because we both have SOs who deserve our attention today, of all days!!!!!
šŖšŖšŖšŖšŖšŖšŖšŖā¤ā¤ to you both.
PS Go Adam. I am so happy she agreed to be your Valentine.
Awww, love this flurry of messaging and support including Adam and Louisa !
Lovisa, best wishes to you in all that’s going on right now.
Mila, thanks ! I hope you are feeling better from your illness. yes exactly this what you wrote on LO could be proactive and isn’t, as he is expecting me to initiate. WHATEVER !
With your SO, that is a bit sad and I was wondering if when you are feeling less ill, could you maybe say to him something like … ‘valentines day is a bit of a commercial concept, maybe we can create our own romantic day together, especially as you have been working so hard on your projects recently, we deserve a special time together? What do you think ? Can you make a booking somewhere that you fancy us both going ?’ in your best sultry voice of course š
Bewitched, thanks again.
I wasn’t expecting this V day to be ‘loaded’ as you say. I was a bit naive on all that. I need to be more aware of these potential triggers.
More importantly I hope your family issues are okay. It sure does focus the mind right ?! I also have serious family dutiful stuff that is challenging! Take care of you.
Hi all,
you were all so nice and lovely, thank you, you really saved my day yesterday!
Of course you are right, I even tried to think it myself yesterday-I should be glad that everyone is in good health and everything going just fine. If something happened like your family emergency, Bewitched, I would have had a sudden change of perspective for sure.
I hope Lovisa, you are coping well with your own family health issues!
I think the reason why it made me overly sad was simply because I donāt feel so well. Iām not sure if that is still the illness , I start thinking it mightāve the whole no grain- no sugar stuff. I expected to feel better with it but after almost 3 weeks I can say I donāt š . Maybe I need grains to be in a good mood?šor Iām simply not over this bug.
Yesterday I felt myself sliding down into a very depressed mood, and I have so little energy.
Could be even hormones, perimenopausal stuff.
I told my SO yesterday that we should do something nice just the two of us. Maybe we even go away for a few days in May.
My new indifference to everything and bad mood leads also to no limerent feelings whatsoever and no impulse to text LO.
Thatās a good thing, right?
Thank you all for listening to my whiny voice here!!
Havenāt heard much from ABCD lately, but I guess itās because heās still going strongšŖš»!
@Adam
In the event you have nothing to wear..
http://www.menswearhouse.com
Not sure if you have any locations down your way.
This is usually my go-to place.
Just trying to help a Brother out..
Hi MJ,
Cannot open the clip, it says Iām not allowed due to serverā¦??? Maybe because Iām in Europe?
Happy Valentine to all Limerents! The best Valentine is acknowledging youāre the most lovable person in the world, that is: lavishing in your love for yourself without being narcissistic.
My SO was diligent, he always remembers all special days. Hi got me Belgian Chocolates in a red velvet heart, and a dozen red roses. Last year he got me a diamond ring wand. Itās in him to love details. Iām not particularly that way.
I remember LO got me a perfume for Valentine when we first started
dating, and had a S.W.A.K handwritten by him. I didnāt know what it meant and I called him to explain . He told me , ā sealed with a kissā, that was lovely.( he had the perfume delivered to my office).
These are the little things that makes me miss him.
Mila, donāt worry about SO and Valentineās disregard for details, if itās not a custom in your country, why would he bother? As long as he is pleasant in other occasions, like Christmas and Birthdays. We have to teach our men what we want! Theyāll joyfully comply. Donāt expect them to know about every little detail we need to be acknowledged. Words that are not spoken are unknown words to them. Hope youāre feeling better.
Adam, Iām happy you still have a Valentine ! Sheās precious and so are you! Cheers š» to you both!
Hi Nisor,
Thanks, it is not a traditional custom here, but still the restaurants are booked fully and decorated etc, most couples acknowledge it at least a bit. Itās not that important, but itās an opportunity to show your love in the rush of everyday hassle, and I love these little gestures, SO doesnāt, I think they stress him out, he for sure doesnāt ājoyfully comply āš
Heās not that great on Christmas and birthdays too, to be honest, but on my birthday he does make an effort because I complained about it at the beginning of our relationship.
Itās all fine because he is a great SO in other more important ways. As I wrote, Iām just not feeling my old self at the moment due to health and these little things seem to get to me too muchā¦
I hope you are fine and enjoyed your chocolate:)!
That reminds me, Imho, he liked the cookies, but I think honestly, I wonāt bother next yearā¦
Mila, Mila,
You need a little pampering now that youāre down and sick. You have to tell your SO you need it, be a little childish, and I think he wonāt resist you. My SO is very good at pampering me when Iām sick. I domesticated him. He does it with pleasure. Try, youāll be surprised.
Strength and courage. Hugs .
Frederico,
From the post: Dealing with limerence in marriage
“I am so very sorry that you want your last post to be deleted because I think it is clear, unequivocal and very wise.”
Thank you. I don’t mind moving my post. I didn’t read the end of the blog entry carefully enough in terms of what kinds of posts it was asking for. My bad. Although I’m not not crazy about being told by posters whose website this is not.
“The only concept I have a slight problem with is that of āchasing limerenceā. In my case, for example, I guess thatās what I have been doing but the changed state of mind which comes with limerence makes that become difficult and fuzzy. Itās such a powerful thing.”
I remember your story is about becoming limerent for a close friend ? I’ll bring it back to myself, only because I think the only person whose behavior it’s fair to really pick apart is my own. As I’ve written, my LO was married, and I knew I had strong feelings for him. So instead of putting up some boundaries and backing away, I chased the limerence. If he approached me, I engaged in flirty conversation. I’d also go looking for him, planting myself in places to “run” into him, trying to be around him, trying to convey I was interested. The limerence erupted (no, I didn’t choose for it to happen), but I did choose how to act on it. I made it a million times worse. I have to take that responsibility. It’s on me.
If you ever watch Dr. John Delony on youtube (he has a radio show), I like his approach. He listens to people who call in for advice about relationships, but he doesn’t coddle them. For example, one caller had left his wife of 8 years to movie in with his affair partner. The affair partner dumped him and then … he called his wife. So, the natural response is … Are you kidding me? But Dr. John didn’t pile on him or yell at him. The caller was obviously in a lot of pain. But Dr. John did let him know he had a lot of work to do. Not on winning his wife back … but on himself. I liked his approach.
Thank you for taking the time to explain what happened to you, Marcia. I did exactly those things too and, when my LO was my neighbour, I sometimes contrived meetings.
It is all stopping now, after four years – no more excuses – which is why I find your posts helpful.
I would absolutely turn it off NOW, at this point in my life with LO3, having already learned the lessons I think I needed it to teach me. It’s stupid to be unable to stop thinking about someone I don’t even want any more. I don’t want to feel like this again about anyone else either. I’ll be single, I’ll be in a relationship, either is fine, but I don’t want to be obsessively thinking.
For that matter, I think I probably would have turned limerence off when I got into the weeds with LO2 and there was clearly no way out. But I’ll admit that the pleasure I got from that one was worth it for a while.
I’d like to respond to the blog subject “Dealing with Limerence in Marriage”. But I’m not a betrayed spouse or a married person, so my views are only based on theory. I will share these theoretical views here for people interested in theory.
First, I think the betrayed spouse will find comfort in learning that limerence is an altered state, caused by brain chemicals acting up. I.e. so much of the limerent’s attitude and behaviour can be explained by high dopamine levels/low serotonin levels. If I knew someone’s behaviour could be explained by neurochemical mayhem, I wouldn’t take that person’s behaviour too personally. I.e. I’m not to blame for the other person’s changed emotional stance toward me and hopefully this person’s changed emotional stance isn’t going to be permanent.
Second, the limerent spouse should educate themselves about limerence, because then they’ll be aware of the temptation to “rewrite history”. E.g. a limerent spouse might believe that they and their spouse were never “in love” because the start of the marital relationship never matched the intensity of LE. The limerent spouse is confusing an intense emotional reaction to someone with love. Limerence isn’t love. Limerence is a potent mix of several different things.
Third, I absolutely don’t understand limerent spouses who wish to leave their spouses to be with LO. I cannot wrap my head around this theme. Even as a (single) limerent, I’ve never seen limerence as a good justification for a relationship. I think I underestimate how many limerent spouses want to leave their (functional) marriages for an (still-somewhat-unknown, possibly flaky) LO. The excitement of passion has never weakened my own equally strong desire for stability. For me personally, at the day’s end, stability always trumps passion.
Last, I have no problem with someone saying they love BOTH their spouse and their LO. I assume the person is saying they feel deep affection/companionate love for their spouse and some kind of “romantic passion” for their LO. Romance flags in all long-term relationships. I wouldn’t be offended if a partner told me they didn’t have passionate feelings for me after several years have elapsed.
It’s true that limerents can only experience limerence for one person at the time. (If the limerent is limerent for their LO, the limerent by definition can’t be enraptured by their non-LO spouse). But nowhere in society have I ever seen the message/argument that limerence is the sole justification/reason for marriage… (Unless mating pairs are making this assumption unconsciously on their own?)
I’m reading a biography of Agatha Christie at the moment. It seems that the definition of marriage was evolving quite rapidly in the first half of the twentieth century. Middle-class people were moving away from property-based traditional marriage of the Victorian era, which were stifling at times for women, toward companionate marriages, which encouraged more equality between the sexes. Both men and women seemed to benefit from the move toward companionate marriage. (A companionate marriage is the kind two lifelong non-limerents would automatically share. Friendship would always take precedence to ardour).
However, the evolution of social ideals of marriage didn’t stop with “companionate marriage”. After companionate marriage, people started wanting marriages based on romantic passion. Then they wanted to dissolve marriages where the romantic passion had ostensibly died. The legal euphemism for a marriage devoid of desired passion: “irretrievably broken down”. Now here we are, in the early twenty-first century, still aspiring to marriage based on romantic passion, and still wondering what to do with marriage once passion has faded.
Clearly, for marriages to last the distance, the concepts of “marriage” and “romantic passion” need to be delinked from each other. Passion alone can’t sustain marriage, and the institution will increasingly falter if large numbers of people reduce it to only passion. (Very much the state of the modern world).
On the other hand, a lot of people – and I suspect many more women than men – simply can’t get in the mood if limerence isn’t very much in play. Limerence can make people leaning toward asexuality actually interested in sexuality. So, in a way, Mother Nature has set up a bit of a double bind for the human species.
Society wants mating pairs to stay together. Nature wants mating pairs to take a strong sexual interest in each other. Limerence can greatly heighten interest in and desire for sexual connection. But limerence rarely lasts more than a few years for a particular partner, meaning sexual interest in that partner will eventually dwindle. Serial monogamy is the only solution for people who want to “follow their bliss”, but it’s an extremely unsatisfying solution to people with families.
Rumination:
I notice not for the first time that I tend to see LO in a way too negative way once I manage to get out of the romantic and pink-tinted phase. Itās not a āgrapes are too sourā because I still guess heās limerent too, but it is a reaction that isnāt fair.
I know I used it to get out and thatās ok but now I want to see him in a neutral light again, but I have to fight annoyed reactions all the time.
Itās a bit like with LO1, he really is a difficult and annoying person, but while I defended him back in my limerence for him, now Iām riled by his bad sides more than other people.
I try to be fair and manage most of the time, but Iām disturbed by my angry gut reaction to him or now to my current LO.
I seem to blame them unconsciously for all the hassle and pain Iāve had, and also for my discovery that they are not all that wonderful.
This is profoundly unfair, I donāt like it.
For some reason itās not the case with LO2, but thatās probably because that I donāt see him often, and maybe because he really is in a way the most special person of the three in the way he behaved etc.
I want to be fair and not discard every LO as annoying because of my own problems and limerence.
I really have to watch myself at the moment to stay polite with LO because he blithely keeps on texting and sending stuff I donāt want to see any more, but why shouldnāt he when I was always glad to text this way before? Itās not his fault I want to pull out of it, Iām responsible to pull out in a kind manner.
For those who celebrate Valentines ā
**********
CINQUE
– Anna Akhmatova
Autant que toi sans doute il te sera fidĆØle
Et constant jusques Ć la mort.
āBaudelaire
1
As if on the rim of a cloud,
I remember your words,
And because of my words to you,
Night became brighter than day.
Thus, torn from the earth,
We rose up, like stars.
There was neither despair nor shame,
Not now, not afterward, not at the time.
But in real life, right now,
You hear how I am calling you.
And that door that you half opened,
I don’t have the strength to slam.
November 26, 1945
Sammy I enjoyed comments š
I too have been itching to respond to some of the comments the āDealing with Limerence in Marriageā blog but am merely someone living with limerence and not an SO am not allowed it seems.
I must start by saying I really do feel for L’s SOs, their experience is clearly traumatic and their suffering is equally valid to the suffering experienced by limerents. But… I don’t sign-up to this idea that a limerent’s LE is necessarily the direct cause of years of an SOs suffering and pain. Actions taken by an L as a result of the limerence could be but not the L’s feelings alone. My reasoning…
I believe the key to emotional maturity lies in taking full ownership your own feelings and self-worth – and this applies to both SOs and L’s. From a psychological perspective, there is a separation between what happens to us and how we end up feeling as a result. The activity that constitutes this separation are our beliefs and our thoughts/mindset or what we choose to dwell on. These are often the greatest cause of human suffering, and this is true for SOs and L’s.
E.g. being dependent on a partners desire and/or exclusive love for your own self worth, the belief that if you marry someone they will never have strong feelings for anyone else over lifetime, that if an SO has feelings for someone else it must be due to a problem in the relationship or something you have done/not done, to expect desire to remain spontaneous and strong through decades of domesticity together, to believe that marriage makes your SO a sure thing and you no longer need to make an effort to attract them, a belief in “the one”, the belief that hormonal love is the same as long term companionate love, that hormonal love lasts a lifetime and if it fades the relationship must be over, the belief that an SO will make you happy, that they are all you need to in life, etc, etc.. I could go on.
It strikes me that all these false beliefs are a major cause of pain for SOs and L’s alike. Romantic movies, novels and music set us all up to suffer! I sincerely wish our western culture had much more realistic expectations of relationships and love, and that children were educated about this.
I really hope I have not offended anyone with this but fear I might well have.
Wishing you all well.
Allie 1,
I canāt agree with you more on all your points here! Your articulation has represented so well my thoughts which I could not and did not feel like posting in the other blogā¦. SOs would hate me more after I previously uttered, āOthersā SO is not my responsibilityāā¦. Psychologically, no one is ABLE to be anotherās responsibility, except oneselfās.
āIt strikes me that all these false beliefs are a major cause of pain for SOs and Lās alike. Romantic movies, novels and music set us all up to suffer! I sincerely wish our western culture had much more realistic expectations of relationships and love, and that children were educated about this.ā
Precisely!!! I just want to add one Buddhistic view: Pains are inevitable; but sufferings and optional.
Choose not to react to what is already āacted outā or to pains, mental, emotional, and psychological, one would NOT get harmed, not suffer or suffer littleā¦.
I know itās easy said than done, Iām still practicing this hardā¦
Thank you for your voice!
Typo: pains are INEVITABLE; but sufferings are OPTIONAL.
You are so right! I’ve been with the same man for 30 years next spring, and you can’t expect hearts and butterflies to keep going. I expect my SO has his own little crushes; I just don’t want to hear about them. (I suspect he’s had a thing for one of our mutual friends for decades.) I’ve been limerent for others probably several times since we’ve been together, and he can be difficult to live with at times (making it easy to think about others), but here we still are. I don’t agree that limerence “isn’t love”; love is an emotion. There are different kinds of love, though. It’s not companionate love, but eros. And you can still have eros with your spouse, maybe waxing and waning over the years, but hopefully you don’t base your marriage on just that. You need more of an agape love to keep a marriage going, and that one takes work and determination. I checked, and the “love chapter”–1 Cor 13–uses the term agape. I have occasionally said that stubbornness is what keeps my SO and me together.
I had been thinking for quite a while about this question posed in this Coffeehouse chat. Honestly, I wasn’t sure which side I fell down on. I wrote a description of limerence here once that quite a few people said touched them very deeply (I have no idea where that post is). I can’t remember exactly what I said but it was something about the intensity of the emotion and feeling so much. But that was when I was just thinking of my OWN experience. I never told my SO, and never intended to, nor intended to ever betray my SO, so I left the SO reaction out of the equation. So, if I’m just focussed on me, the intrusive thoughts, obsession, guilt, feeling torn in two, the lovesickness, longing for the impossible – it was all horrible … BUT … I learnt so much, grew so much, the world felt pyschedelic, I experienced emotion that felt like this was what being alive meant … so I was seriously on the fence.
Then I read the SO perspective in the more recent post about the effect of limerence in a marriage – focussed on the SOs. After that I’m firmly in the, yes, I would turn off limerence. No, my SO did not suffer that (because I never told) but based on what the SOs are saying, they probably had an inkling, and would have at least sensed something was wrong. And the RISK. The RISK to my SO. The risk of hurting them that much! No, definitely not worth it.
What if you were single with no SO?
Little update from me:
Iām quite successful in reducing texting to LO. Beginning on Valentines Day we havenāt texted for full 2 days which is nothing with other friends, but hasnāt occurred with LO since months (I know, I know).
Yesterday I decided to ask about his ongoing project that is coming to a head tomorrow, because thatās what Iād do with a normal friend. He answered late and when I wrote some nice encouraging stuff (because he complained about time, pressure etc)he never answered back.
I think heās finally pissed off. (no, heās not too busy, he might pretend, but he is annoyed,I know him).
I know I should see it as progress and I know itās only healthy to bring it all back to a normal frequency.
It still feels like a loss and Iām grieving somehow.
I keep reminding myself that I havenāt lost anything that isnāt a kind of illusion or is futile, and that it wouldnāt have been good if we kept on writing that much.
Still, I might have lost him as a good friend (not yet, but soon, if he sees the reduction of texts as a reduction of friendship).
I waver back and forth between telling myself Iām doing the right thing and thinking Iām forcing it too much. Maybe it would have petered out anyway naturally?
Iāll wish him good luck tomorrow for launching of his project and thatās it, because even if I regret the reduction I cannot suddenly text a lot after he ignored my last encouraging messages (something I wouldnāt have done ever).
I know Iām sweating the small stuff again but as I said before, big thoughts are good and nice, but for actual progress itās one step after the other.
I just sometimes suddenly think maybe Iāve talked myself into the wrong way of progressing, Iām not strong enough yet etc .
Because I notice that now I think of him much more than when we were āgoodā. That isnāt how it is supposed to go.
Ok I pulled myself out of it. I know itās much better this way.
Maybe I have to accept that I cannot just turn it off like a tap, of course there will still be some work to do in my mind and that involves intrusive thoughts, but actually these thoughts always lead to the point where I see that itās best to dial the friendship down.
Dear Mila,
I think that you are experiencing the (entirely predictable) withdrawal symptoms, nothing more.
If his text frequency goes down a bit, its a good thing. He is maybe a bit anxious, like you said, but he will adjust. You will work out a new pattern with him when things settle (a non limerent pattern). If his attachment to you is a bit anxious, as it seems to be at times (?), he is bound to need some time to adapt to the new pattern.
“I waver back and forth between telling myself Iām doing the right thing and thinking Iām forcing it too much”
I relate to this myself because I have seen it in my own brief daily mood journal where I am up and down like a yoyo. When i feel bad, the solution is always the same, waiting, not reacting to it. It’s just a fleeting feeling.
I think you already observed it from your follow on post – and I am very glad for you š„³
I hope you geel good today. Have a wonderful weekend. I am away with ‘the girls’ for the first time in ages. Distraction-ville here I come š¤š¤øāāļø
Hi Bewitched,
when Iām feeling benign toward him I think like you that heās anxious in his attachment,
when Iām feeling less benign then I think heās just set in his ways and used to get his validation from me, and doesnāt like it when things donāt go the way he wants.
Itās probably a bit of both.
But when I, like you, look at past journal entries, I have to say I really need to let this go, thereās so many thoughts and agony and energy involved, itās plain crazy.
So, all good, it has to be that way.
Iām glad you go out with the girls, enjoy it!!
Iām still low in energy and not too keen to see people, but thereās some event tonight weāll have to attend.
Bewitched, thanks for your wise advice as always, you are right,there were bound to be withdrawal symptoms, how can I expect it to just pass without any trouble.
Have a great time!!šŖš»š„
Hi all,
Iām a bit vexed and want to relieve it and vent a bit here.
Iām vexed because Iām annoyed with LOās SO and I donāt want to be annoyed with her, itās a sign of ongoing limerence that I care so much how she behaves and let myself be riled by it.
I wrote a whole post about the details but I think itās too detailed and recognizable.
Sheās just such a- donāt know an English expression. She has this notion of how things āshould be doneā and sometimes tries to press it on me in a subtle but slightly reproachful way, and I hate that because I donāt agree, but for my part would never expect her to act according to my notions.
In this case, I think on her side it might be mixed with a slight anxiety about LO and me, which I should understand, but I donāt. Iām just riled.
I think I reacted ok- sheās not happy about my reaction (I didnāt give in in a friendly way), but thatās her problem.
My problem is that Iām so annoyed. It shouldnāt bother me so much. I would like to be more benign and understanding towards her.
I feel that she can only rile me so much because sheās LOās SO.
I know that my SO gets a bit riled about this way of hers too sometimes, so itās nothing I only imagine.
But my problem is, with the limerence stuff and emotions going up and down itās really hard for me to judge if I overreact to her or if sheās really annoying.
I donāt want that, I want to like her and not overreact to her. But I also donāt want to be told by her how to do this or that (she doesnāt tell me in so many words, but hints or acts very subtly reproachfully) in matters that are simply not her business, even if I understand that itās got something to do with LO and me.
Now, one night in a very unrestful hotel room later, I widened out my resentment to LO himself, his fault only being not reading a text while being online several times.
I know that itās completely random and stupid, itās the old roller coaster.
But better in this direction than the other. I should be glad that he behaves like that, I was on the brink of getting into the rose-tinted limerence phase again.
I just wish it would stop going up and down. Texting is much more reduced, but now I think it will only be solved when he decides if heāll come back to our work place or not. Chances are good that he wonāt, he left for family reasons that wouldnāt be solved if he stayed.
I start to wish he would stay away because it seems I cannot find my peace of mind with him and his SO.
But since we co existed at work and were non-limerent friends for ages, maybe it could revert to that once heās back, because there would be a stable background to all this and limerence would fade.
I feel that this up and down limerent stuff stems from this uncertainty and fear of loss. Once thatās resolved I could free my mind better. Itās a matter of couple of months until he has to decide, I guess.
Mila,
“But since we co existed at work and were non-limerent friends for ages, maybe it could revert to that once heās back, because there would be a stable background to all this and limerence would fade.”
Or seeing him in person could make the limerence worse. It’s possible.
He shows up. He’s got his skinny jeans on. He drops his pencil. He has to pick it up. And it’s all downhill from there. š
Sorry … I’m being silly. But you get what I’m saying.
Ha! Marcia, you made me laugh!
I donāt think his bum in skinny jeans would be a problem, heās not very athletic, more the slim intellectual type..
But I know what you mean!but he will also show up, show his not so athletic bum, show his conservative side, be annoyingly stuck on details etc- to be short, also show his bad sides.
Also I would know that heās here for good which would mean the anxiety of losing him would vanish and I honestly think thatās what mainly triggered the limerence.
But of course it would more effectively quell the limerence habit if he moved away for good. Iād still mourn the friendship though.
I actually miss our casual but warm friendship without limerence.
I just feel I could be more consistent in my efforts to get on a normal level with him or stop the limerent cra* if I knew if he leaves or stays, I could better decide on a course of action.
Still, Iām now back on track now after this short wobbly episode.
Iām so glad to be able to write here and thanks Marcia! for the picture of him picking up his pencil,suddenly my mood lifted and all doesnāt seem so grave..
Mila,
When is he going to know if he’s coming back to your work place or not? Typical LO. Leaves you dangling.
“Iām so glad to be able to write here and thanks Marcia! for the picture of him picking up his pencil,”
Who said it was “his” pencil? Maybe you throw your pencil on the ground. š
Hi Marcia,
I guess heāll have to decide around May, June.
Yeah, typical! I think that leaving business is the main reason why he became an LO.
I also think that I will throw his pencil on the ground, thatās the best version! If he annoys me I could sharpen mine and throw a bit harder in his direction.
Mila,
“I also think that I will throw his pencil on the ground, thatās the best version!”
Here’s what you’re going to do. You’re going to take his pencil, throw it on the ground and in a slightly playful but mostly authoritative voice say, “Pick it up.” š
ššš
Marcia: š
Very good suggestion, because heās not very gentlemanly and if I drop my pencil someone else will surely pick it up for me before him.
So, now Iām looking forward to it, heāll be astonished by the amount of pencil dropping and throwing going on around himš
Mila,
“Very good suggestion, because heās not very gentlemanly and if I drop my pencil someone else will surely pick it up for me before him.”
I have to be honest: Based on this post and others you’ve written about this guy … I don’t get it. I don’t get why you’re limerent for him.
Hi Marcia,
Although thatās exactly what I want to hear, I have to be fair- I lie heavy on his negative sides here because I post here to get rid of limerence. He is socially a bit awkward, but heās a very sincere, reliable, faithful person, a bit shy but sweet, I think he is quite unique in never pretending. Most people wear kind of masks, to please people or to defend themselves, heās always the same and when he says something nice itās always from the heart. Heās self-deprecating and doubts himself a lot at work while being one of the very best. When thereās a crisis , work or life, heās calm and reassuring and helpful. He loves the simple things in life and is a very good baker, when he likes someone this person can trust him completely. He has the most beautiful smile because itās always sincere.
I could go on, but thatās are at not what helps me actually;)
He grew up with his mother, and, knowing her, I know that much of his annoying sides come from his upbringing, and he fights most of them (for example he tries to be gentlemanly, but is not very adept).
I didnāt mean ālieā, I mean I lean heavily on his bad sides, if that is English at all
Mila,
“He is socially a bit awkward, but heās a very sincere, reliable, faithful person”
I don’t read all the posts, so correct me if I’m wrong, but when I’ve read some of yours, you seem to be annoyed he hasn’t responded to your texts. That doesn’t sound reliable.
And how socically awkward? I certainly don’t expect Cary Grant in the charm department, but I do give up with grown adults (children are a different sotry) when the interactions seem to require me drawing them out. The person has to meet me at least 40 or 50 percent of the way. Help me out a little. š
@Marcia
āThe person has to meet me at least 40 or 50 percent of the way.ā
I feel the same way, or else itās one sided relationship. And I want the person to inĆciate most of the time, otherwise Iād feel Iām pushing the outcome. No.
Have a great week.
Marcia,
You have to see that we text a lot. Much too much. When Iām annoyed he doesnāt answer, it means he strays from the pattern, it still means he will reply at some point, it doesnāt mean heās not reliable. This annoyance of me is not right, itās a sign of limerence that I care so much when and how he answers.
I really have to defend him here- he is quite introvert and passive which also annoys me sometimes (not fair from me, too), but he comes out of himself with me as much as he can, I guess.
āSocially a bit awkwardā means he has sometimes a lack of learned manner, and that he is a bit too sincere or honest sometimes. People still like him a lot, and so do I, apart from limerence.
Nisor, although I also prefer it if the man initiates more, I donāt think itās fair to expect āthe other person to initiate most of the timeā. If the other person thinks the same way, youāll never meet anywhere;)
Mila,
“it still means he will reply at some point, it doesnāt mean heās not reliable. ”
Personally, I’m not a big texter and I don’t expect people to have long text conversations back and forth with me. And I know there isn’t a specific text etiquette, but I think it starts to border on rude if someone doesn’t respond within about 24 hours (48 would be pushing it). (I don’t know how long he’s taking to respond.) That’s my personal opinion. I have had friends who take a week, two weeks, maybe more. When people start doing that, I start to lose my desire to reach out as much.
“but he comes out of himself with me as much as he can, I guess.”
This is more of what I meant. Having to draw someone out.
Nisor and Mila,
“Nisor, although I also prefer it if the man initiates more, I donāt think itās fair to expect āthe other person to initiate most of the time.”
I like a man to initiate more in the beginning. Before things get off the ground. If we’re dating. To be the one to ask me out, call, etc.
In terms of friendship, it should always be reciprocal. Just because it’s a guy friend doesn’t mean I expect him to initiate more. He’s not pursuing me.
Marcia
no heās not that rude that he wouldnāt reply on a text with a question in it for days. Itās more that itās conspicuous when one of us breaks out of the established pattern, may that be texting 6 times a day or once in two days, that doesnāt matter.
Anyway, I ruminate today a lot about him, and now Iām back to the thought that maybe Iām completely deluded and he hasnāt noticed anything and has just friendly feelings for me, doesnāt think of me at all between texts and Iām alone in my crazy limerence.
I was just looking for an article about deluded limerents who interpret and analyze every move and text of LO fitting to their delusionā¦
It would surely be helpful to believe this.
Maybe the truth lies in the middle somewhere.
I think Iām very important to him at the moment, but because he needs an anchor here at his old work/life place , he is someone who needs routines and same people, heās not opening up to new people easily, also heās a very loyal friend and sorry to lose me, Iām sure. Add to this a bit of male/female frisson. And anxiety about his future and how he should decide.
There comes something resembling limerence, but I think heās much more innocent in what he wants of this limerence than I can be, or maybe you cannot even call it limerence on his side.
Sorry for the rambling, itās all anxiety before meeting tomorrow., just ignore meš
Mila,
“but I think heās much more innocent in what he wants of this limerence than I can be”
What are you wanting from the limerence? I mean, if one or both people are with someone else, unless you have an affair, there’s nowhere for it to go. That’s just kind of the hard reality of it.
Marcia,
I know that! Thatās the whole problem, sometimes I want more even knowing I canāt, wonāt and shouldnāt have it, thatās the plague and pain. Itās not even that I would want an affair or anything very conscious, itās more a craving for contact and then also an urge to touch etc.
But have to get ready now. Itāll all be fine.
Mila,
Good luck!
Try to take deep breathes, think your LO is a piece of walking painting in a museum ā you can watch it as much as you wish, chat with it in your head, but you canāt touch it or āownā it, itās not for āsale or rentā in your caseā¦. š«
Mila,
“itās more a craving for contact and then also an urge to touch etc.”
I’m probably not the best person to respond on this topic. I’m single so I’m looking at it differently. I didn’t contact my LO outside of work but inside of work, he was touchy-feely, holding my hand, etc. And it frustrated me over time. I wasn’t interested in operating within the bounds of what he didn’t consider cheating.
It’s one of the reasons I finally went NC. I was always longing for more. I finally had to accept that this was all I was going to get … and rip the band-aid off and move on.
“I wasnāt interested in operating within the bounds of what he didnāt consider cheating.”
I don’t think any LO in the end does either. When clear boundaries are in place and it is clear that the limerent is just skirting the line, unless the LO is just interested in the attention given them I would think that they would move on. I dunno I skirted the line myself. Lying I was just being friendly. And maybe the LO actually has a normal platonic relationship with the limerent and takes themselves out of the picture to save the limerent from themselves.
Either way it’s gonna be a stumbling mess of a dance when both the limerent and LO can’t make themselves clear in their intentions and/or expectations. The LO is vague to the married limerent and the married limerent only intends to take as far as the LO will allow. At least that’s the way it seems it went for me.
Adam,
“The LO is vague to the married limerent and the married limerent only intends to take as far as the LO will allow.”
I mean … it’s different, depending on the dynamics.
Sometimes the married limerent will only take it so far. But within the LO-limerent dynamic, one person is usually holding all the cards in terms of deciding how far it goes. And to be honest, since that person wasn’t me, that power dynamic started to get really old.
Marcia
āI didnāt contact my LO outside of work but inside of work, he was touchy-feely, holding my hand, etc. And it frustrated me over time. I wasnāt interested in operating within the bounds of what he didnāt consider cheating.ā
Yes, I would have reacted the same.
I donāt mean I really want LO to get touchy-feely , I just feel the urge to get closer, get some physical contact and even more, but thatās not what my head wants and itās not what I think is good for any of us.
If he started to get touchy feely without wanting to talk about it or expecting me to put up with it and not consider it cheating, I would be taken aback.
No, thatās the paradox here, I want to touch him and donāt want it. If it wouldnāt be in this stupid way I wouldnāt need to ramble on hereā¦
Mine was similar it’s just the roles were reversed. IF she, being single, had wanted it to move forward I wouldn’t have. I had no interest in an affair or going through divorce. So I can from the other side of the fence see your frustrations with your LO.
He acted out your dynamic the “safe way”. Like you said what he didn’t think was cheating. Though I find touching and hand holding very close to cheating. Or at least heading in that direction. One of the reason why there was no touch between us and no outside of work contact. I was playing it safe in my own way too. But I think unlike your LE there was not an inkling of anything else but co-workers from her. She didn’t lead me on like your LO did you. If anything I was leading her on.
Mila,
“I donāt mean I really want LO to get touchy-feely , I just feel the urge to get closer, get some physical contact”
It’s kind of the same thing, no? š
“No, thatās the paradox here, I want to touch him and donāt want it.”
And this is why I now stay away from married or partnered people, aside from the ethicial concerns. You don’t know what you want. š I get it. You’re torn. But it’s just too much … stuff, drama. However you want to define it.
Adam,
“IF she, being single, had wanted it to move forward I wouldnāt have. ”
And, to be honest, when mine made that same decision, I resented him for it.
“I had no interest in an affair or going through divorce.”
I didn’t want him to leave his wife. Just have an affair. Yes, I can hear myself. š
Miss Marcia
Being through limerence and almost out of it completely I learned two things to guard myself against future episodes. Things I couldn’t see while in limerence
1. LO reminded me of someone in my past that I met before my wife that I think I might actually have been limerent for. But if not I was head over heals for her. I shamelessly pursued her. She was someone I had grown up with and as I grew into a man I saw her as more than a friend. Unfortunately after a few months of me giving her attention, compliments and gifts she finally said she couldn’t see me as more. Couple that with flicking on that “hero complex” of mine and I didn’t have a chance.
2. Most importantly it happened because instead of trying to work on our marriage which seemed to have fizzled and we were more roommates than husband and wife; I sought the attention of another woman to make me happy.
Hopefully I can make better choices if this same 1-2 combo of a woman ever comes around.
Adam,
This all sounds really good. You’re trying to determine what your triggers are so you don’t become limerent again.
Besides that, you’ve diclosed to your wife and you’ve gone NC. If I had a husband who became limerenct for someone else, I don’t think there’s anything else I could ask him to do. I applaud your efforts.
Hi Mila & Marcia,
I am appreciating the lightness of touch here, Marcia “Or seeing him in person could make the limerence worse. Itās possible.
He shows up. Heās got his skinny jeans on. He drops his pencil. He has to pick it up. And itās all downhill from there.”
š
But not all LOs are created equally, in the ‘skinny jeans’ department. Our LOs are all middle aged, if I am not wrong? Hmmm. I must admit that I have seen my LO in shorts and – woah. That was a tough thing to ‘unsee’. And I mean in a good way š.
@Mila, I was reading the ‘Tolerance versus Respect’ blog on here the other day and, ever since, I have been seeing everything through that lens (that is a bit of an over-reaction on my part, as usual). But I wondered whether it might give you something to use in your feelings about your LO’s SO? She seems like she falls a little bit on the ‘Respect’ side of that dichotomy, whereas you are more in the ‘Tolerance’ side. I have always been very anti being told what to do, it really sets me off. So I get where you are at. I would never dream of telling someone else what to do!
This is all part of my own neurosis, of course. Like, for me, I can’t believe that I need so much validation from outside sources. The extrinsic locus of control – Why is that? It’s vexing to me.
I will update on my own progress with my LE very soon, I am going through a period of reflection and need to gather my thoughts before putting them down. Journaling is helping me, I think. If only because I have such a shocking memory recall, whereas putting it all own (only 3-4 lines a day) and reading it back is very helpful.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/tolerance-as-a-protection-mechanism-against-limerence/
Bewitched,
“I must admit that I have seen my LO in shorts and ā woah. That was a tough thing to āunseeā. And I mean in a good way š.”
See? Shorts. Skinny jeans. It’s a slippery slope. š
I’m not really a fan of skinny jeans as a general rule. But my LO could probably have gotten away with them. Had a body like a weasel. š
Hi Bewitched,
Sounds as if you work on your LE. I used to journal a lot about my LEs and it definitely helps. Recently I switched to posting here, as I said it seems to clear my head when I have to translate into English.
Iād be very curious to hear about your developments when/if youāll be ready to share!
Thanks for the link!
I read the article and after overcoming a confusion about the meaning of respect (for me, it was basically the same as what he described as tolerance. I can respect another opinion without sharing it.) I agree that I might be more tolerant than his SO. I know that she mostly means well, but she comes from a culture where rules and behavior are very important, itās ingrained in her whole being. Sometimes I forget that because sheās in my country since childhood, but her upbringing is still very alive in her. I should cut her some slack and I think I could do that better if not for the whole limerent situation.
Now Iām back to a slight resentment towards her and LO as a unity (both being a bit rigid in their views) which is maybe only for the best, limerencewise.
Since he only replied with Emojis on my last text (shown as banner on the screen) I just havenāt read them and wonāt.
He will come and work at his old/ my workplace next week. This will be interesting. I surprise myself with my mood these days, I might be happy to see him and work with him or I might be suddenly gripped by resentment and avoid him.
Maybe I should decide on a course of action. I do want to be friendly and professional and enjoy the week since it is an interesting project overall. If I give in to resentment I will regret it and suffer, I know that in advance.
Friendly and not avoiding him but also not initiating anything would be good.
Gosh, hold your thumbs please, people, that it will go reasonably well without limerence flaring up or any emotional drama.
I will drop his pencil and report if his backside is up to standard!
Hey Mila,
“Gosh, hold your thumbs please, people, that it will go reasonably well without limerence flaring up or any emotional drama.
I will drop his pencil and report if his backside is up to standard!”
OMG, I am crying here… you haven’t lost your sense of humour, then!
Seriously, you have a very testing situation, Mila. So much contact. Wow. I am really, really, really, happy that the texting has come under your control. This is amazing progress. Everything else will follow in good time. When he finally makes his decision, for instance. You are becoming like Speedwagon, beginning to wish that he would leave the job definitively.
I am also flip flopping like crazy over my LO. He’s an angel / devil. Or more accurately, since I should say something less extreme, he is pleasant / an eejit.
I totally get where you are at but acknowledge that you have got it harder than me, with my very minimal contact, all work related ….
Almost missed your post, Bewitched!
Yes, I also had to think of Speedwagon here. But my ideal is still to get back to a normal friendship with him, not to go completely NC. Not an intense friendship, more nice and casual. I gave up the notion to keep him as best friend, now I just want a friendly atmosphere, regular contact but not too often, and no intrusive thoughts in between.
No idea if Iāll ever get there.
Meanwhile Iāll follow my old strategy to behave as if that goal is already reached.
I think it would be best reached if he went away for good, to be honest.
If he stays, there will certainly be prolonged struggle with annoyance and pain , but even then itās reachable. Only this uncertain state is really unbearable.
Maybe your LO is just that mixture, a pleasant eejit?;) mine definitely is.
“But not all LOs are created equally, in the āskinny jeansā department. Our LOs are all middle aged, if I am not wrong?”
LOL, yeah, mine seems to like his culture’s cooking a bit too much…. It’s a lot harder to find 50-somethings who should be wearing skinny jeans. š
Serial Limerent,
how is it going with your LO, skinny jeans or not? I remember that he showed some mutual signs but only in secret? Has he stopped that sneaky stuff?
I also wonder how Imho is doing! Still struggling a bit, like me in the last days? (By the way, I have to report that ignoring LOs texts always leads to him making more effort. The old dance.)
And ABCD, if heās still strong?šŖš»and Problem Child?
Hope they are all well and have no reason to post because they are purposefully living without needing the site!
The only time I saw LOās zero-fat long legs in shorts after a fresh shower was when he came to my hotel room in that European capital city, and I was surprised and questioned (didnāt grow up in the West), why he was not in his usual, long trousers šā¦. Later, whenever he had his tight (not skinny) black jeans on with a shirt/short sleeves buckled in, I knew heād go to his afternoon rendezvousā¦. Oh, the biological vanity! š
@Mila: Well, he hasn’t repeated the thing that got me upset, and while I thought he was going to start pushing me into a SA, he hasn’t been. He’s also been gone a lot, went on vacation with his SO, and last week made a lovey post about her on Facebook (argh, didn’t want to see that). So while I know there are some mutual feelings there, possibly limerence, so far we’re still at the level of church-flirtation. Which I’m fine with–keep it light and fun. I don’t like the guilt.
Serial Limerent,
Iām glad you didnāt slide headlong into a PA, I think itās best that you both keep your hands still, isnāt it?
Good to hear from you!
Dear Marcia,
“Iām not really a fan of skinny jeans as a general rule. But my LO could probably have gotten away with them. Had a body like a weasel. š”
Ha ha, I get the picture. My husband is like that, maybe a bit more boney (like a greyhound?). He doesn’t wear skinny jeans as he doesnt want to draw attention to his lean-ness. I also think that it takes a certain amount of attitude to pull off skinny jeans as a guy. I mean the younger ones do it, but in an older guy, I gotta say, anything that fashionable makes me suspicious. I like understated better, hahaha. I am all for the hairs peeking out beneath the cuff, or the veins on the lower arms/hands.
It follows that I have to be understated myself. I am so boring!!!! But I think a good fit on any garment works wonders.
Actually, that reminds me, I want to hear about Adam’s date night, what he wore, what momma wore, etc!!!
Bewitched,
“He doesnāt wear skinny jeans as he doesnt want to draw attention to his lean-ness. I also think that it takes a certain amount of attitude to pull off skinny jeans as a guy. I mean the younger ones do it, but in an older guy, I gotta say, anything that fashionable makes me suspicious.”
Honestly, I don’t like them on anyone. They’re so tight, they look the person is wearing nylons or tights and forgot to put on their pants.
Grown men really need to stop wearing skinny jeans. Those are for teens and boy bands not grown men lol It’s the equivalent of grown women still wearing uggs. There are much better fashion statements to make.
I asked her in the morning when she would want to go so I could get dressed and she told me not to dress up too much. She said this is just a casual thing we were going to do. So I wore my (I’m somewhat color blind) pair of brown mustard/dark gold chinos with black belt and a burgundy/dark red button down collar shirt. My bracelet I always have on, watch and white fedora. Too warm that day to wear my wool black fedora. Though I think it would have favored the look a bit better. Momma wore a nice pair of blue jeans (she usually lounges around the house in sweats) and a nice red and black, not really sure what kind of shirt to call it. Maybe something close to a man’s Henley?
We went to the shopping mall. We went in a few women’s clothing stores and I tried to convince her to buy a corset-shirt and short short skirt combo but she wasn’t buying it. Literally. *shrugs* I tried. I mean I told her she could just wear it for me and not out in public. š Then there was the bell bottom jeans. She wasn’t having that either. Or I guess as they are called “flare legged” to the younger generation. Why don’t they make “flare legged” jeans for men? I’d rock those. We looked at some jewelry too if I remember right. Then we went to a bar&grill and ate lunch. I sat on the same side of the booth as her. We had a nice time eating and talking. She let me put her arm around her when we talked. She put her hand on my thigh at one point. š It was a nice leisurely time. I had a couple of beers with my meal and then when we were done we stopped at the store to pick up prescriptions and do some food shopping before we went home. Then we had a few hours alone together before our youngest got home from school. Good time all around.
āGrown men really need to stop wearing skinny jeans. Those are for teens and boy bands not grown men lolā
Well, my teenage daughter says skinny jeans are a no go for her for both boys and girls, sheās all into baggy š
So even teens are not united in their view of skinny trousersā¦
Sounds like a relaxed date of two fashionable persons,Adam! Glad you had a nice day!!
Awwww, I love it! Good for you, Adam.
Hi Mila. A week ago I prepared a reply here but my battery saver kicked in and somehow lost what I had written, and didn’t have energy at that moment to start again. I came later and somehow feel I missed the boat. The lwl community had departed and I was still dockside. Funny isn’t it.
Sorry to hear you are a bit up and down. friends and especially coupled friends will all have some annoying traits, ( and that comes out especially if you spend too much time with them.)
Also, agree, best not to list LOs good traits I find ! Mine is a long list , now you ladies here have added yet another one of looking great in slim jeans! Ha ha …
I agree sincerity and competent yet self depreciating is so very attractive, my LO is like this too.
For me, I was doing ok, but lots of triggers since I last messaged. He sent me THAT emoji, you know the one. And a group of people are going to meet at an event, he is going but I didn’t make the cut. So feelings of missing out, envy, jealousy, relief. It’s a mix of contradicting emotions which my executive brain is trying to tell me not to be so ridiculous!
Imho,
ā The lwl community had departed and I was still dockside. Funny isnāt it.ā
I know that feeling, and thatās the point where I simply plop a new rumination post in the last Coffehouse, just for myselfš
Ha, he sent THE Emoji? Do you think he did it on purpose? Actually I do have two or three male friends who use it without any special importance, only with LO itās got a meaning, so itās hard to tell, I guess.
I totally understand about the feeling of missing out, but youāll probably not miss out on that much (brain enlarges these events where one canāt participate to once-in-a-lifetime great events, but much more likely itās just like every other, and since there are a lot of people maybe you wouldnāt get to talk to him that much?) and second, although it sounds stupid, you spare yourself a lot of emotional up and down before and during, being anxious what to wear, how to behave, whatever , and in the end realizing that itās all futile because nothing will ever happen (hello Bewitched) and he will just show you pictures of his SO and family again..?
Well, last phrase sounds as if it would be actually be a good thing if you would go.
What I mean is, it might help to really examine why youād like to go, what you secretly hope would be happening- intense talk, warm feelings, eye contact- and what would be the consequence of that? Only that you are deeper in limerence. But since there cannot be a happy outcome of this limerence since you both have SO and family, it would be worse for you afterwards. So better skip that wave anyway!
Dear Imho & Mila,
Mila, I think you were right first time when you said to Imho that:
“I totally understand about the feeling of missing out, but youāll probably not miss out on that much (brain enlarges these events where one canāt participate to once-in-a-lifetime great events, but much more likely itās just like every other, and since there are a lot of people maybe you wouldnāt get to talk to him that much?) and second, although it sounds stupid, you spare yourself a lot of emotional up and down before and during, being anxious what to wear, how to behave, whatever , and in the end realizing that itās all futile because nothing will ever happen (hello Bewitched) and he will just show you pictures of his SO and family again..”
And then you drive your self crazy with ‘why is he showing me pics of his SO and family – is that significant?’
I am nowadays viewing these f2f events are another opportunity to get onto the roller coaster. But, despite that, I still can’t seem to face coming up with an excuse not to go (in my case, they are work). You are definitely dodging a bullet, Imho. I wanted to share my very frustrating experiences over the past few weeks…
I’ve been saying how my journal has been such a revelation in my up and down feelings. When I was in a ‘down’ phase back at the end of January, I actually experimented with very consciously not thinking about him at all. I also stopped posting on here about him so much and instead spent time thinking about everyone else’s case. My trajectory went something like this: the intrusiveness of him popping into my head gradually went down, although this seemed to be making me slightly depressed. Later on, I began feeling more numb – still thinking about him more than I should but less extreme feelings, no highs or lows, which was a relief but also quite dull. This continued for maybe a week. I had a few dreams with him in them, they were quite vanilla and did not derail me. Then on Valentine’s Day, I was struck by a mental image of him, very very physically attractive to me and was pining all day (I felt annoyed by that). That only lasted for 24 hours – thank goodness. The next phase of my loopy journey was another experiment where I tried to conjure up the old euphoria with some pleasant memory curation – I was having a tough week for reasons I wont go into – to not much avail. My mind actually wandered while trying this. I felt – Great! I am over him! I had also made lists of ‘pros’ and ‘cons’ how we were/were not compatible and was able to coolly do so because I was feeling so balanced.
Bear in mind, that we have had work contact all through what I described above, but it was virtual.
But – here is the thing – I have been at this stage before and it all came crashing down after seeing him. When I see him, all my physiological systems go berserk, I feel weak, like I could fall down, distracted, super-sensitive. After a week of being around him, I spend months recovering.
Imho, you are better off not seeing your LO, tough it may feel hard, so hard. I am a terrible person because, I could probably make an excuse and not go to the f2f work thing, but I know I wont. How crazy is that?
Ugh Bewitched,
now Iām scared of the week ahead where weāll meet daily and work together, starting on Tuesday.
Although thereās a good chance that we both might get ill again or one of us, I feel something coming up and he too- since he left heās actually very prone to get ill (I think itās because of all this uncertainty and stress).
So, fate might intervene once again.
But I hope very much not. Iām looking forward to it actually, not because of limerence, but because heās a pleasure to work with and it would maybe be the last time. But I already prepare mentally to not seeing himā¦
Iām sorry to hear about your up and downs that sound uncannily like my up and downs! I also had these calm but dull stages. Even when I saw him at this group event, I didnāt feel much beyond awkwardness and a bit of resentment, but when I saw him one on one the shield broke again, although even that was still ok- I had more problems the last week when I didnāt see him at all. I think in my case the ups and downs have much more to do with my own mental or hormonal or whatever state.
I never made lists though. Donāt give me ideas. Also, I donāt think you are a terrible person. What good would it do to avoid him since you have to work with him anyway? Or do you think that would reduce the limerence? I somehow doubt it, itās not the same as cutting all contact, you would still get the emails and think about him?
Thank you Mila and Bewitched !!
your inputs are so helpful. I would dread and look forward to the event in crazy cycles, like last time. It would be exhausting. It would be a great event and I think we would spend time together for sure,unless he gets a new younger female friend š!
So yes some relief but I would like to go, others I like are going too. of course its always the thought I may not see him at all this year or ever again that fuels my uncertainties and limerence.
Bewitched you said
“I could probably make an excuse and not go to the f2f work thing, but I know I wont.” You are not a bad person. I would of course be the exact same. And then the recovery period afterwards this is the challenge for sure. I understand the cycles you describe of being over it and getting good but life seems so dull and then crashing down especially after f2f.
Valentines day completely caught me by surprise too, as normally I’m not bothered, but very similar experience for me that you had too. Crazy !
Mila, to be fair he doesn’t show pics of his SO often, its mostly himself ! Ha ha
That emoji was probably a nod of acknowledgement that he likes my admiration. Maybe a bit the other way too. Like you say, we never really know. He doesn’t use it often so it has more meaning when he hits it.
So big week ahead for you. Maybe it will be like you used to work with him and take you back to pre-limerence zone. I do hope so. Can the cat be put back in the bag after it’s been released though ?
( Just in case not familiar to you ”Letting the cat out of the bag” is a colloquialism)
Also more importantly, I hope you dont get ill again.
Wishing you both health, happiness and strength for the week ahead !
Imho,
I managed to delete my post to you two times by turning my mobile.
You could say that your question is the big neon headline of my current LE:
āCan The Cat Be Put Back In The Bagā!
Thatās the main riddle hereā¦
There is a similar expression here, but it has a slightly different meaning.
I did my best to convince you that you shouldnāt feel sorry for not going, but I have to admit that Iād most probably be disappointed too, itās natural. Why can you not go? They didnāt pick you or something? Are they stupid?
I still think there are advantages of not going. As I said, lots of emotional stress spared.
I thought heās in another country? Is the event in his country? Or maybe Iām mistaken.
Thanks Mila, Happy Monday. I’m honoured you persisted to retype me a message a 3rd time !
Its like a reward trip for top performers across the world at my company. Only select few from each division go to a nice country with special event etc. sadly I can’t share more details on here. It’s ironic that maybe my limerence is one of the reasons that I wasnt performing at my best in recent months, which is needed to be in with a chance to be selected. I will never know of course, as it’s very difficult to be selected even when you are performing really well. LO is a superstar at his job it seems. Another thing to add to his list of attributes – very annoying. Ha ha !
I suggest you take an extra large bag to work tomorrow šŗ
Imho,
I see, itās not a single evening but a whole trip.
Of course it would have been nice. I bet youāll make the cut another time!
You know, Iām not religious and not esoteric, but I sometimes wondered in my case if fate wants to tell me something, or if itās even myself who unconsciously plays fate. All the sicknesses (his, my kidās, mine etc) preventing LO and me to meet for example since he left work, or his or mine SO unexpectedly being there etc.
In my last LE I was in a similar situation, LO2 was leaving work and town.
I hurt myself accidentally so I couldnāt work for the whole last weeks that he was still at work, including a trip. I was devastated at the time (apart from LO business, there was chaos at work because of it). I wondered if fate pulled the emergency brake so I couldnāt do something stupid, or if I even hurt myself because my unconscious self wanted to hinder me.
That doesnāt have to be true, also not in your case, and I donāt really believe it, but a small part of me wonders sometimesā¦
You really think you performed worse because of the LE? I donāt think so, but I cannot know of course. Maybe it would be an incentive for you to end the LE if you thought so, but otherwise Iāve got the feeling that you are such a capable person that you would perform well anyway. But Iām in no position to judge, of course, not knowing you or your work.
Well, Iāll bring big bags, pencils and whatnot to work tomorrow! Now Iām rather looking forward to it because Iāll have to think of you lovely people a lot!
Hey Mila & Imho (&Snow &Marcia),
Well I also lost a reply that I had all typed out earlier, due to a knock on the door. This seems to be happening to all of us ‘butterfingers’ at the moment š Are we losing our cool?
Well, all I wanted to add was three short things: First, to Imho, I am so glad that this wasn’t a social event that you had been left out of. At least its ‘only’ work. That’s great as I think being left out of a friendship or social thing would have been hard to reconcile. Secondly, your LO still ‘performed’ and wasn’t impaired by what you both have going on, Imho. So this is a sign, I believe, that he is able to compartmentalise more than you. This is what I tell myself about my own LO when I want to disengage from him and I am dealing with his virtual interactions. In fact, its one of the reasons that I fare so badly f2f because then I can see that he is a mess with my own two eyes which is fairly endearing, I have to say.
Mila, I am crossing all fingers and toes for you to maintain decorum, calm, dignity (!!) tomorrow and for the rest of the week. I just want to remind you that you have been doing absolutely great on the texting. That is fantastic progress. LiS’s post earlier on attachment styles and anxiety were very instructive, don’t you think? I think maybe I have an anxious streak. Since our up and down cycles are so similar, maybe you do too?
Sending many warm wishes and virtual hugs!
P.S. I also want to send a virtual hug to Marcia and Snow because I realise from reading their posts that I have/had a narcissist in my life, but more on that subject anon….
Hi Bewitched,
weāve texted a lot today due to comparing signs of illness šand also already work stuff, so it wonāt be such a big step to see him tomorrow.
Iām still not feeling very well which prevents me from getting nervous or anything.
I always enjoy LiS posts and take a lot from them, but this time, I donāt know much about attachment styles, I have to say.
I tried to take a quiz on attachment styles but quit at the questions about caretakers etc. I mean, I could rely on my parents , but now they are so old that of course I wonāt burden them any more with my stuff etc? So where do I make my cross then, since it seems to influence the result significantly?
I took it anyway and got a result of disorganized-fearful-avoidant or something that I couldnāt quite agree onā¦
By the way, my LO1 had/has definitely narcissistic traits..
@Imho, Mila, Bewitched,
Sorry to hear about roll-coaster you ladies are all riding about and I can feel where you are, since I have been there beforeā¦
I just want to ask, what do you all do with your physical workouts or exercises, particularly when such a huge, limerence stress comes and goes? What are your ladiesā Hobbies?
Mila, how is your running going?
Iām thinking about what kind of psychological exercises could be tried in your scenarios, in which I was as wellā¦.
Snow,
Running is not going well, since I was ill I didnāt go and now I feel getting ill again (or the last virus never left meš). At the moment Iām only doing some very light core/pelvic floor stuff and stretches in the evening.
Mila,
Thatās good. As long as you do something that could contract your muscles, anywhere in body. Stretches are really helpful for blood and Qi circulate, keep them up! š
I wish you feeling less sick/ill; I feel it might have something to do with your stressful/anxious situation with LO ā his and your textingā¦ and your back & forth LE craving ā wanting more than you could get and more beyond your controlā¦.š
You have all my sympathy and empathy. I was there before; even my bones know what it feels likeā¦ š«
Iām getting ready to coach my Romeo, my content will rest on teaching and enjoying his present learning, nothing more, nothing lessā¦ āŗļø
Snow,
“Iām getting ready to coach my Romeo, my content will rest on teaching and enjoying his present learning, nothing more, nothing lessā¦ ”
When he shows up for his lesson … DROP YOUR PENCIL. š
Marcia,
There is nowhere to drop anything since I sit on his glass dining table, sideway (side chair) reading/learning the materials on his laptop and my ipad. But like the last time, I used his nice fountain pen to write class notes on his paper notebook (supposedly in our shared google doc), leaving my sloppy handwriting there. āļø
Calmly checked this time: not any ring on any figure; spotless, ādust freeā and nothing visible downstair in the bathroom and on kitchen counters; the whole living room looks like a spacey, hotel room with a huge set of bulky, grayish sofas beyond the open kitchen (looking unused). Only framed painting reproduction hanging on the walls.
I still canāt tell if itās a home of a straight or gay man (LO#5ās studio looked like an indoor garden). Heās from the south, his gentle and sweet smile still ākillsāā¦. His face also looks like Eddie Redmayne, whose aura/air in āthe Danish Girlā was carried by all my major and most of minor LOs ā not your Butler type. But his arm and chest muscles are a result of moderate workout. š
Well, Marcia sister, thatās my report on the second time teaching my pupil, Romeo, still not a LO.
Marcia,
I still see LOās/the Phantomās expressions on Romeoās face, but not the other way around (will be in LOās class in a few hours to check)
I wonder if this is neurochemical relatedā
Snow,
“I still canāt tell if itās a home of a straight or gay man (LO#5ās studio looked like an indoor garden).”
Hmmm …. have you used the bathroom and checked the medicene cabinet for things like makeup or prescriptions with someone else’s name on them? š
“Heās from the south”
“The South” in the United States? Does he have an accent and say things like “I do declare …” I’m being silly. š
“his gentle and sweet smile still ākillsāā¦. His face also looks like Eddie Redmayne, whose aura/air in āthe Danish Girlā was carried by all my major and most of minor LOs”
Oh, ok. I know who he is. He’s not my type but I have been known to like a more feminine-looking guy in my time.
” not your Butler type. ”
That’s the type I’d like to experience. š
“But his arm and chest muscles are a result of moderate workout.”
That sounds good. I’ve never been into bulkier dudes. These guys who look like they work out all day long … not my type.
“Well, Marcia sister, thatās my report on the second time teaching my pupil, Romeo, still not a LO.”
It sounds like you had a good session. When is your next session? For the next session, I’d recommend making the directions for the homework kind of vague … so he has to contact you about them! š
Snow,
“I still see LOās/the Phantomās expressions on Romeoās face, but not the other way around (will be in LOās class in a few hours to check)”
Not sure what you mean.
So … he ‘s in your class and you tutor him separately?
Marcia,
Iām tutoring Romeo outside my work. Iām taking LOās class, as one of his students, at my work.
Seeing LOās expressions and smiles on Romeoās face; they share similar aura; however, I donāt see Remeoās expressions on LOās face. The former is a lot younger than LO.
So, people from the South say āI do declare?ā
Amazing, I learn all sorts of stuff here:)
Isnāt that from āGone with the windā?
Marcia,
Romeo is just a crash for now, so I donāt call him a LO. I tutor him at his home, completely outside my work.
LO is LO#7 (of 7 years), a colleague, to him Iāll have to say goodbye permanently in May due to our shared laid-off misfortune, which is dreadful to me. Iām auditing his class for the last time (took one 5 years ago) for a subject Iām highly interested ā Religion & Media, which allows me to learn about Western culture.
A cliche: when a door is closed, another window might openā¦
Mila,
I have encountered some guys from the south at various venues, theyāre very courteous and soft to ladies, much less cynical like the Northerners.
Marcia, Mila,
Iām sitting in LOās class right now. Heās allowed me to take pictures and videos of the class if I wishā¦ some snap shots of his lecturing looked so awful; some highly entertaining or inspiritingā¦.
He gets a bit annoyed if other students and i are on our electronic devices while he talked logistic stuff.
With Romeoās sweet, focused eyes directly on my coaching, itās hard to keep myself not to wonder to anywhere elseā¦ but the word āLwLā flashed in and outā¦
Snowphoniex
For the most part Southern men are taught proper manners and the right and wrong way to address women. However while I am a Southern resident now I was born a damn yankee (Northern) but my father taught me the same things. And I passed that on to our two sons. One of the reasons why I address Miss Lovisa the way I do is because she has been very helpful to me and I consider her a friend. Now Marcia, who I consider a friend too, I don’t think would take kindly to the “Miss” but I could be wrong. It’s hard to feel out whether some women don’t mind, actually like it, or don’t like it but won’t say anything. Especially when only interacting online.
First time I met LO in person (had only talked to her on the phone before) it was clear by her facial expression and body language she didn’t like the Miss so I dropped it. While all my other female colleagues I use the Miss for and have gotten no negative feedback.
āHmmm ā¦. have you used the bathroom and checked the medicine cabinet for things like makeup or prescriptions with someone elseās name on them?
I used twice the bathroom downstair, for the studio living room openly adjacent to the gala (?) kitchen. I got too scared to slide open the mirror (he might hear it outside), feeling like a thief. It looked having nothing else except a big hand towel.
āHeās from the southā
āThe Southā in the United States? Does he have an accent and say things like āI do declare ā¦ā Iām being silly.
Yes. I canāt tell much of his TN accent. I havenāt heard any phrase like that. Iāll pay attention from now on. Heās a bit shy, eager and determined to learn well in this course. (Apologized for not have done the last weekās HW)
āThat sounds good. Iāve never been into bulkier dudes.ā
I canāt stand the bulky muscle type. I could not see Romeoās muscles at all in our first class when he had a long sleeve shirt. This time, he had a short polo and sweater pants.
āIt sounds like you had a good session. When is your next session? For the next session, Iād recommend making the directions for the homework kind of vague ā¦ so he has to contact you about them! ā
I tutor him every Monday evening for one hour. We donāt have each otherās phone #, due to the policy of the agency. But of course, if students want, they could give me a number (a middle-aged single father did). So far, I use shared Google doc to leave homework and class notes, which agencyās owner could see. During an emergency, I contact her to reach my students, vice versa.
At this movement, LO is presenting and discussing āMatrixā (trilogy), my kind of movie ā Iām leaning to take the Red pill, despite itās depressingā¦
Adam,
I like courteous southern mannerism, because men in my COO, even very educated, are mostly macholy ācoarseā.
For now, I keep reminding myself that Romeoās gentility and sweetness are just a part of his Southern manner, so I donāt over read anything from his expressions, which does not say anything else at all. We limerents tend to read/fuss something out of nothing from (potential) LOs.
Despite I often talk and behave like aāTomboyā, I donāt mind to be addressed as āMissā
Adam,
“Now Marcia, who I consider a friend too, I donāt think would take kindly to the āMissā but I could be wrong”
No, I’d love it. I love the Southern man’s gallantry. And I agree with you that Southern men are taught manners with women in a way Northern men are not.
But don’t EVER call me mam. I HATE it. š
Mila,
“So, people from the South say āI do declare?ā”
Not really. I saw Alec Baldwin on a talk show. And he did an impression of Al Pacino and his various speech patterns over the years. His voice was high-pitched when he was young, then went on to the gravelly “hoo-ahs” in middle age. Now that he is older, Alec said Al has a quasi-Southern accent. And his imitation started out with, “I do declare …” It was very funny.
Snow,
“I used twice the bathroom downstair, for the studio living room openly adjacent to the gala (?) kitchen. I got too scared to slide open the mirror (he might hear it outside), feeling like a thief. It looked having nothing else except a big hand towel.”
Turn the water on to make some noise. Or start coughing.
“Apologized for not have done the last weekās HW”
There needs to be a punishment then, no? š
“I tutor him every Monday evening for one hour. ”
Ok. So we have some time. You wrote until May.
What are you wearing to these sessions? š
“At this movement, LO is presenting and discussing āMatrixā (trilogy), my kind of movie”
It sounds like an interesting class.
Miss Marcia,
I googled:
Question:ā Where did the trope of someone saying āI do declareā in an upper-class southern accent come from?ā
Answer:
.Scarlett O’Hara says, “Flowersā¦ for me? I do declare, Mr. Beauregard. You are my hero.ā in Gone with the Wind. She also says, āI do declare, Frank Kennedy, if you donāt look dashing with that new set of whiskers!ā
Did Gone With the Wind influence the way people speak? Or did it take inspiration from how the upper class in the south speaks? That I do not know.ā
I wasnāt that wrong šŖš»?
Mila,
“Miss Marcia”
LOL. Love the “Miss.”
“Answer:
.Scarlett OāHara says, āFlowersā¦ for me? I do declare, Mr. Beauregard. You are my hero.ā in Gone with the Wind. She also says, āI do declare, Frank Kennedy, if you donāt look dashing with that new set of whiskers!ā”
You are right! I had forgotten that. I have a friend who is Southern and I’ve visited her there a few times. I don’t remember ever hearing her or anyone else say “I do declare.” Maybe no one says it anymore or maybe it’s only said in certain parts of the South ?
“Did Gone With the Wind influence the way people speak? Or did it take inspiration from how the upper class in the south speaks? That I do not know.”
I don’t know, either.
I wasnāt that wrong šŖš»?
You weren’t!
ā I wasnāt that wrong šŖš»?
You werenāt!ā
Ha!
I rewatched that film during the pandemic on Netflix out of boredom, maybe that bit stuck in my brain.
I even read the book ages ago, but in my language. I cannot imagine how they would have translated āI do declareāš
Marcia,
ššš
Youāre hilariously funny. Next Monday, Iāll turn on the facet while using the bathroom.
You keep confused: I donāt have definitive finishing time with Romeo, as long as he wants to further his learning.
But LO and I are both leaving our work in early May; most likely I wonāt be able to see him forever. He most likely will end up moving to another state. I am stuck here (with Mom, who needs my help at least once every other week. )
Even at the end of this LE 7, Iām feeling very sentimental about this coming āeternalā departure.
Romeo seems to be sincere and serious in his learning, heās a bit self-conscious and shy as well, like a big sweet boy. I donāt feel comfortable yet to make any jokes.
Well Miss Snowphoniex
I kind of got that impression of you too over the time that you have posted here. While LO had very good taste in women’s fashion she was very much a tomboy. Which was really polarizing because you wouldn’t think seeing her she would be. But I think that is why she didn’t like the Miss.
Miss Marcia ….
…..it is then. And I will try to remember the ma’am as I use that a lot when talking to my female co-workers and other women I meet.
I remember how both the young ladies our oldest son has dated; his ex and his present lady friend, parents were always praising me for how polite, well mannered and respectful he is. I guess I did at least something right with him.
Friday when my boss came to visit the location I work at he was telling me that we were hiring a new young lady shortly (where LO use to be) to help with invoicing for our location. I asked him if he warned her about the salesman here how they do very shoddy paper work and leave her all kinds of problems. He said yes he did but he said “I also told her Adam is very polite and is always willing help you with anything you need” So that felt kinda good.
Mila,
“I rewatched that film during the pandemic on Netflix out of boredom, maybe that bit stuck in my brain.”
Rhett Butler: “You ought to be kissed, and often, and by someone who knows how.”
If someone talked that way to me, I’d do whatever he wanted. š
Miss Marcia,
I wore a baggy jeans and a sloppy, black (chop style) sweater for my first class with Romeo. Last night, a dark flowery skirt (swinging?), black tights, and a dark-red cashmere sweater (I was told I look good in red with my black hair). When I was using the bathroom, Romeo quickly changed his working trousers to loose sweater pants, which I noticed only when I was leaving.
In LOās class, I got chances to take snap shots of his facial expressions, hand jesters, body movements, all sides of his bums ā¦ He occasionally wore black jeans (on his rendezvous days), which highlights a physique of a man in his 30sā a fat-free body (not skinny, but less muscle toned than Romeo, who is definitely shorter than 6ā4ā).
Marcia,
āRhett Butler: āYou ought to be kissed, and often, and by someone who knows how.ā
If someone talked that way to me, Iād do whatever he wanted.ā
In this case, I would follow your footsteps!ā¦ š
Miss Marcia ā¦.
“ā¦..it is then. And I will try to remember the maāam as I use that a lot when talking to my female co-workers and other women I meet.”
I know a lot of women notice when they are suddenly called “mam” after being called “miss” for years. It makes them feel old. I know it’s not intended that way, but that’s how it feels.
“I remember how both the young ladies our oldest son has dated; his ex and his present lady friend, parents were always praising me for how polite, well mannered and respectful he is. I guess I did at least something right with him.”
And that’s a good thing.
As a woman, I notice when a man has manners and is chivalrous. And I make it a point to thank him if he, for example, gets the door for me. Not every guy does that and it is appreciated.
The above message was for Adam.
Snow,
“I wore a baggy jeans and a sloppy, black (chop style) sweater for my first class with Romeo. Last night, a dark flowery skirt (swinging?), black tights, and a dark-red cashmere sweater (I was told I look good in red with my black hair). ”
That sounds nice, but we’re going for something tight and short or low-cut. š
“In LOās class, I got chances to take snap shots of his facial expressions, hand jesters, body movements, all sides of his bums ā¦ ”
I’ve already moved on from your LO.
We have Romeo now. š
But in all seriousness, yes, May will be a rough month for you. Having to say goodbye is not easy.
Mila,
“In this case, I would follow your footsteps!ā¦ š”
Actually, the hottest line in that movie is the scene where he has paid to dance with her when she’s still in mourning, which has shocked everyone. And she says, “Another dance and my reputation will be lost forever.”
And he says, “With enough courage, you can do without a reputation.”
OMG. OMG. OMG. š
Miss Marcia,
Youāre turning this room to āhow to catch and take an available LO to bedāā¦ š
āThat sounds nice, but weāre going for something tight and short or low-cut. ā
Gosh, I need a new wardrobe just for a possible PA? BTW, my red sweater is a low-cut.
āIāve already moved on from your LO.We have Romeo now. ā
I know you already moved for me, but I have this ambivalent feelings about it. On one side, Romeoās appearance on horizon (even just as a strict pupil), is balancing off some my profound sadness of departing LO in May. On the hand, I feel a sense of a deep loss of LO (regardless whatever pains this LE has brought me), who has been in my life for the last 7 years during which so many ātragicā events took placeā¦
Iām very grateful for that fantasized, surrogate āparentingā although he did not intend and I directed and acted the most āshowsā. I grew up in COO that value other peopleās benevolent āactsā, w/o their intentions. If without, we call it āfateā or Karma. If we feel entitled to receive benefits from others, we believe bad karmas would befall on us.
āBut in all seriousness, yes, May will be a rough month for you. Having to say goodbye is not easy.ā
Yes. Even to think about that approaching day, my heart tightensā¦. (Although nothing could ever happen between LO and me, with his SO and LO around). I just wish(ed) we could be closer friends, which is impossible before my limerence for him is completely gone.
But for now, Iām willing to be coached by you on ācirclingā a Romeo, my twin sister!
Mila, Marcia,
āAnd he says, āWith enough courage, you can do without a reputation.ā
OMG. OMG. OMG.ā
Thatās also my favorite line!
To think it hard, what is reputation (aside from breaking laws or hurting people and animals on purpose) FOR in a truly individualistic and purposeful life???
Snow,
“Youāre turning this room to āhow to catch and take an available LO to bedāā¦ š”
A girl’s got to do what a girl’s got to do. š
“Gosh, I need a new wardrobe just for a possible PA? BTW, my red sweater is a low-cut.”
I wasn’t thinking a PA. I was thinking someone nice to date … and seeing what happens.
“I know you already moved”
Sorry. With the earlier posts, I was getting Romeo and your LO mixed up. Because, you know … I’ve moved on from your LO. š
“On the hand, I feel a sense of a deep loss of LO (regardless whatever pains this LE has brought me), who has been in my life for the last 7 years during which so many ātragicā events took placeā¦”
Yes, it’s understandable. Seven years is a long time.
” I just wish(ed) we could be closer friends, which is impossible before my limerence for him is completely gone.”
You can’t maintain any kind of friendship, even an occasional email or text? Or will that make moving on harder?
“Iām willing to be coached by you on ācirclingā a Romeo, my twin sister!”
That boy has no idea what’s about to hit him! š
“To think it hard, what is reputation (aside from breaking laws or hurting people and animals on purpose) FOR in a truly individualistic and purposeful life???”
It has no purpose. That’s why the line is so great. He’s his own person.
Miss Marcia,
āI wasnāt thinking a PA. I was thinking someone nice to date ā¦ and seeing what happens.ā
Romeo could (may already) have any girl in town if he wishes. I donāt want to expect anything or deliberately try anything at this point, but go with a flow of our classes ā still get to watch his sweet, dreamy eyes. I want to stay in reality with our specific tasks in hand, see who he is and show who I am. If there is a chemistry on the other side, I trust it will show somehow; if not, I still get to enjoy his face as long as he does not fire me.
One canāt be too greedy, Sister! Having a glimmer or not, Iām still a half Stoic and a half Buddhistic, itās even more useful to practice them in a potential dating.
Right now, Iām very content that the initial glimmer ā giddy, fuzzy, and heart-pounding sensations followed the first class, has quieted down. Iām not fantasying anything about Romeo and keep checking the reality based on our teaching and learning. LwLās knowledge is helping keep a high alert in my mind ā such a psychological progress!
āYou canāt maintain any kind of friendship, even an occasional email or text? Or will that make moving on harder?ā
Yes, Sensor LOās email and social media has always being open to me anytime (got a firm permission again last week when we had tea), but he said he could not be much āavailableā to respond (one short message perhaps once every 1 or 2 months), which has been very disappointing, prolonging LEās longing. I do not want slip back to monologuing and feeling clingy again to a parental Phantom. I want to move on to play some ping-pong with available hands. š
āThat boy has no idea whatās about to hit him! ā
Good lord, imagine Iām hitting that āDanish Girlā in his male form! š
āIt has no purpose. Thatās why the line is so great. Heās his own person.ā
Thatās what I admire and love Butlerās character so muchā¦. Only I really dislike his mustache ā please no hair on maleās face!
Snow,
“Romeo could (may already) have any girl in town if he wishes. I donāt want to expect anything or deliberately try anything at this point, but go with a flow of our classes ā still get to watch his sweet, dreamy eyes. I want to stay in reality with our specific tasks in hand, see who he is and show who I am. If there is a chemistry on the other side, I trust it will show somehow; if not, I still get to enjoy his face as long as he does not fire me.”
That sounds good. That’s what I would do in your situation. Go with it. See what happens. While also completing my investigation of his medicene cabinet and wearing my low-cut, red sweater. š
“One canāt be too greedy, Sister!”
Yes, you can! How often do we have these tingly feelings? Not often. At least I don’t.
“Right now, Iām very content that the initial glimmer ā giddy, fuzzy, and heart-pounding sensations followed the first class, has quieted down.”
That would be disappointing. Although I don’t know how I could ever teach someone if I felt that way.
“Iām not fantasying anything about Romeo”
That’s actually good. You just want to enjoy the feelings without having it effect you in a negative way.
“but he said he could not be much āavailableā to respond (one short message perhaps once every 1 or 2 months), which has been very disappointing”
Yeah, that would be.
“Only I really dislike his mustache ā please no hair on maleās face!”
I agree. You can see watch other movies with Clark Gable without the mustache. The man was sexy!
I really like this clip ā
https://youtu.be/k-k23Lk9njY?si=BFb8KfzVa9tDtA0n ā How to Survive a Loss of Reputation.
Lost in Space and Bewitched,
have you read this article:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/limerence-and-anxious-attachment/
I just found it.
Hi Mila! Yeah thatās a good blog article too, I was gonna reference it in my next reply to youā¦ I like Dr Lās point that we canāt draw conclusions about our attachment style based solely on how we act with our LO. Basically weāre all anxiously attached to our LOsā¦ thatās just one of the key features of limerence. If we have a lifetime history of secure attachment in general and only display anxious patterns with LOs, then thatās just limerence, not a sign that we have a deeper lying insecure attachment style.
For me, Iāve actually tended towards avoidant in most of my relationships lifelong. I donāt tend to maintain friendships long term, and I donāt typically let friends get very close. Whenever a friend tries to get closer like, you know, wanting to hang out more than once a month or something, I start displaying a bunch of avoidant behavior and put up walls. I donāt like this about myself, but I find myself doing it over and over again. As a result, I find myself often craving more close connections in my life but I just donāt have them. Most times in my adult life, the only person Iāve been really close to is my SO. These days I have a lot of people Iām friendly with on a surface level, but no actual close friends.
Iāve only had 2 bona fide romantic relationships in my life. In the first, I was quite avoidant throughout the entire relationship (with a very anxious-preoccupied partner who I always felt was smothering my independence). With my SO on the other hand, Iāve always been anxious-preoccupied, probably because she leans more avoidant so I became the chaser and her the runner. Weāve become more secure together over the years, but we can still fall into the anxious-avoidant dynamic when weāre not careful. And with my LOs of course Iām anxious-preoccupied but that only sort of counts.
So overall what is my attachment style? I guess maybe fearful avoidantā¦ I mean, Iāve spent my whole life craving closeness and affection and love, but until I met my SO I always felt like I was unworthy of it somehow and always had this feeling like no one would ever love me. And at the same time I know Iāve pushed a lot of people away who wanted to establish genuinely close friendships with me – Iām usually friendly and engaging with other people to a certain level, but I have hidden walls that I donāt let most people cross. I also sometimes start relationships out with a lot of enthusiasm and oversharing and stuff, only to pull away later as soon as it seems like the other person might want to get closer too. Iām good at letting people get a little bit close to me but not too close. Honestly itās probably partly why Iām drawn to anonymous forums like this – I can have some deep conversations and experience some connection with other people, but then I can also disappear easily when I feel overwhelmed.
And then with my current LO, sheās way more avoidant than I am, so that polarizes me to the anxious side. Honestly I think if she was in the anxious-preoccupied role, the relationship would have ended already because I would have freaked out early on and pushed her far away. I think I feel a certain safety in her avoidance, like I can feel free to express a lot of love and affection to her and receive occasional expressions of affection back from her, while always sensing that sheās never going to take it too far and that sheāll distance herself from me before letting us ever get too close. I actually find myself starting to get freaked out sometimes on the rare occasions when she gets too affectionate. For example during our late night phone call a couple weeks ago I started to feel a sense of fear, a sense of losing control, and it kept me from saying some things I might have said otherwise and made me want to end the call. Every time over the past year and a half when it felt remotely like she was really on the verge of leaning in to closeness with me, Iāve felt some fear that held me back. Maybe thatās just a healthy abhorrence of actually crossing the line into a full blown affair, or maybe itās a deeper seated fear of being that close to her regardless. Who knowsā¦ Iāve certainly wondered about that a lot, if we were both actually single and available to each other, would we live happily ever after? Or would one or both of us end up pushing the other away? Or conversely, would we both become totally co-dependent and consume each other? I feel like any of those seem possibleā¦
Anyway, Iām ramblingā¦ but I did also want to share a video I liked about attachment theory:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa11KTYzDdw
This woman Thais Gibson has a ton of videos on YouTube and she explains things in a way that makes a lot of sense to me. This link is to a video about attachment styles in general, kind of an āattachment theory 101ā, but she has a ton of other videos about the specific styles and about the relationship dynamics between different styles – you can just search stuff like āThais Gibson anxious avoidant relationshipā and a bunch of videos come up that are worth watching.
I recommend her too LiS. She does do a nice job of explaining things in an easy-to-understand way.. It’s her videos that indirectly led me to this forum.
So thank the Gods.. šš¼
MJ – thatās cool that youāve spent time on this as well! What do you think your attachment style is?
Hi LiS,
very interesting post, I will read and reply later or tonight and check out the video!
Dear Mila and LiS,
I have read your link, Mila, thank you. It was great.
LiS, in your comment on Mila’s link you described keeping people at a bit if a distance throughout your life, due to your attachment style, and this resonated, although as I have gotten older I feel like my attachment style has changed. I am nowadays more available for my friends and more open to attachment from new friends.
However – when it comes to my LO, I am very much anxious and I appreciate your synopsis of the original LwL blog post, theorising that we are *all* anxiously attached to a LO in limerence – that this anxious attachment happens outside of our normal attachment style, since it is a special case. What the LO’s attachment style is makes a huge difference to the dynamic.
More broadly, since we are all attached to our SOs for a long time, what do married people who have no intention of leaving their SO get from limerence? Is it a safe way of being close and intimate with someone who fires up our neurons but who we know will never push for more due to barriers; or is it pure and simple validation; or is it something else? I think validation seeking is what it is in my case. Although I do care about my LO a lot, outside of our interaction. I am invested in him being happy. Its a bit weird.
Thank you for the Thais Gibson link, LiS, I will look at it later.
I am so glad that you are getting somewhere in making sense of all of this.
Good luck with everything.
āIs it a safe way of being close and intimate with someone who fires up our neurons but who we know will never push for more due to barriersā
I think itās a lot of this for me honestly. I love the feelings of closeness and connection I get with LO, I often think about how badly I wish I could actually be with her as a couple and I fantasize about shared life together, but I really truly donāt want to actually uproot my whole life and my familyās whole life, Iāve never actually had any desire to leave SO for herā¦ and the times when itās felt like we were actually on the brink of plunging into a PA, I found myself filled with fear and ready to freeze or retreat.
Iāve had a handful of instances over the course of my married life where another woman made a clear and obvious bid for meā¦ in each case, I was pretty spooked and put up boundaries really quickly. I wonder if itās the case that I could only end up in a limerent emotional affair with a fearful avoidantly attached woman? I mean, a secure person probably wouldnāt be getting involved with a married man in the first place, an anxious-preoccupied would scare me off right away, and a dismissive-avoidant wouldnāt give me enough warmth and affection to draw me close enough to get limerent. Maybe itās only the fearful avoidant with the whole ācome close but not too close, I love you now go awayā that offers me a taste of the closeness I crave but also makes me feel safe somehow that they wonāt take it too far.
Bewitched – you said that youāve become more open to new friends over the years and more able to securely attach – is that something youāve intentionally worked on, or do you feel like itās something thatās just happened naturally for you over time?
Dear LiS,
“you said that youāve become more open to new friends over the years and more able to securely attach ā is that something youāve intentionally worked on, or do you feel like itās something thatās just happened naturally for you over time?”
This is a great question and commenting with you guys here means I am only realising some of these things as I read and respond to you.
I think that my SO has made me very secure. He is quite ‘devoted’ and so I sometimes find our dynamic a little bit claustrophobic, but that is only on rare occasions. Before I met him, I was always a bit anxious in my attachments, or some flavour of anxious (I need to read into attachment theory more to figure it out). With him, there was no need to be anxious, so I relaxed and was more open, I guess. We’ve been married for 16 years, together for 18, so he’s had a big impact on me. As well as having a reassuring SO, I have also matured, have less hard edges than when I was younger. I have had hardships, which make me generally more appreciative of the people in my life, even those I know less well. A lot of them have responded very kindly to my hardships (family health-wise), which has been a revelation, to be honest. Often its an opportunity to share their issues with me and I am not scared off by that anymore.
I have to say that I think I was only ever very anxious in romantic attachments. This is a weird thing – I am pretty sure that I was more avoidant in non-romantic attachments maybe? I had one or two close friends who I confided in, but beyond that, really didn’t want to get to know more people too deeply. I am not sure if this is just my ~introversion…..
Hmm, does attachment theory apply across the board or should we reserve it for parent/sibling and romantic relationships? Are introverts avoidant in friendships?
I am not sure about the theory and need to read into it more.
Thanks LiS and others for posting useful links. I can’t wait to work my way through them!!!
LiS
āMaybe itās only the fearful avoidant with the whole ācome close but not too close, I love you now go awayā that offers me a taste of the closeness I crave but also makes me feel safe somehow that they wonāt take it too far.ā
I think you are on to something here.
But it doesnāt mean necessarily that you cannot get limerent for other LOs, does it? It only means that thatās the only attachment-style-LO that you can sustain an EA with.
Mila – you wrote āBut it doesnāt mean necessarily that you cannot get limerent for other LOs, does it? It only means that thatās the only attachment-style-LO that you can sustain an EA with.ā
Thatās an interesting question for me, because I donāt know that I can actually separate limerence experiences from emotional affairs – Iāve had 3 LEs over the course of my marriage, and they all involved some degree of EA. Only the current one is a disclosed, fully reciprocated EA, but all 3 of my LEs included lots of texting and time together (WAY more than in any normal friendship), lots of deep conversations with lots of very personal sharing, and definite emotional connection and bonding. Whether or not the the other two LOs had actual romantic feelings or even limerence for me Iāll never know because I never asked, but they were all unusually close relationships that would have to be classified as EAs.
I donāt think I could develop limerence for someone I wasnāt close to and having a lot of contact with. Iāve been attracted to plenty of women, Iāve had little crushes on plenty of women and fantasized a little bit about plenty of women, but Iāve only become full blown limerent for my LOs in conjunction with developing close relationships – I get limerent as I get close. The all-day-every-day texting, deep meaningful conversations and little shows of affection are the drivers of me transitioning from attraction to limerence. I actually canāt imagine myself developing limerence from afar – Iāve had little crushes on women I knew casually (classmates, co-workers, etc) but without a growing sense of closeness, the crushes always died out pretty quickly. I guess thatās probably a good thing for me, because it means that if I ever get out of my current limerence episode, I might be able to avoid falling into limerence again by being really good about boundaries and not letting myself develop over-closeness with potential LOs.
But LiS,
Iām basically the same, I cannot get limerent without some kind of closeness, friendship, and definitely a bit of reciprocation.
But Iām not as hopeful as youš that that would be an advantage next time thereās a glimmer!
Because I could always tell myself , I just want to get to know this person, we are becoming just friends, nothing more, Iāll guard my boundaries etc, but actually itās much harder to keep within boundaries with this kind of friendship-dependent LE, than with limerence for someone who doesnāt reciprocate one bit.
Mila, youāre right of courseā¦ here I am still fully caught up in my current LE saying how confident I am that Iāll be able to prevent the next one š¤£. I guess the question is, assuming this one ends some day, would I truly be willing to commit to enforcing strong boundaries with myself that include basically never engaging in friendships with attractive women? For the rest of my life? Hmmā¦ I know what the answer to that SHOULD beā¦
I also some more musings on attachment theory todayā¦I was reading something about object permanence for different attachment types and how that can cause mis-matched expectations. A dismissive avoidant doesnāt see the need to say āI love youā every day because āI already told you I love you on May 2nd 2022 and I havenāt revoked it so clearly I still love youā. Meanwhile the anxious preoccupied needs to hear it several times every day because āI know you told me you love me this morning, but that was like 6 hours ago and your text back to me at lunch time didnāt feel very warmā¦ do you still love me? How about now? Now?ā
Obviously thatās a bit of an exaggeration but I think there could be some truth to it as well. Iāve actually experienced that in my relationship with LO – weāve had a few conversations where I told her I felt bad because I didnāt really know how she felt about me, and she seemed really surprised and was like āyou know how I feel, Iāve told you that!ā and Iām like āyeah but that was months ago and youāve barely been speaking to me for the past few weeks so it feels like maybe your feelings have changedā¦ā and sheās like āIām sorry you felt like that, please donāt worry, I feel the same about you even when I donāt have the ability to communicate with you for awhileā. And itās hard for me to truly believe that because itās just so different from how I am (I probably tell my SO 20 times a day that I love her), but I just have to believe her when she says it and just accept that weāre wired differently.