I often take a rather negative view of limerence. The majority of articles on the site come from the perspective that limerence needs to be managed or constrained or beaten or reversed, despite my actual position being much more moderate.
Limerence is enlivening, exciting, enriching, and exhilarating (and that’s just the words beginning with the letter e). It’s a spectacular life experience, and when it’s directed towards someone good, who you can form a healthy bond with, then it’s fab. I wouldn’t have wanted to do without it when I was young and fancy free.
Like many powerful forces, though, limerence can also be destructive, and that’s why I spend so much time talking about the downsides.
A recent conversation brought this topic to mind. After chatting about limerence and its impacts for a while, the guy I was talking to asked me:
“So, is limerence always a sign that something is wrong in life?”
It struck me as a profound question.
For some people the answer is a simple “yes”. For others, the answer is “not always, but often”, for still others the answer is more like “not usually”, and, of course, the general answer that applies in most cases is “it depends”.
That’s an annoyingly imprecise answer, so let’s go through the cases.
When limerence is not a problem
Limerence is an intrinsic part of who we are – it is hardwired into our brains because it emerges from key neural systems that regulate reward, arousal and bonding. It’s not an inherently problematic phenomenon. In fact, there are lots of reasons to think that it is an advantage for pair-bonding and reproductive success, as well as being the source of a great deal of pleasure.
Many of us can thank limerence for our very existence.
Limerence emerges when we meet someone who causes the glimmer for us, at a time when we are emotionally open to seeking romantic rewards. If both you and the person who gives you the glimmer are single and looking for love, then limerence is not necessarily a problem. In fact, it can be fantastic.
An important factor in determining whether limerence is a sign that something is wrong is our awareness of what the emergence of limerence means. At it’s simplest, limerence just means we have met someone who matches our subconscious template for a desirable mate. If we can capitalise on that good fortune, then we should.
However, even in such times when we can safely and mindfully pursue limerence, there are a couple of risks to be anticipated.
When limerence might be a sign of trouble
The first risk to limerent indulgence, is that it’s very possible that the person you are becoming infatuated with is not themselves a limerent. There are big mismatches in expectations between the two tribes of limerents and non-limerents about what love should feel like.
If you are looking for mutual limerence as your ideal vision of an ecstatic union, you are not going to be able to provoke it in a non-limerent. It’s not a personal failing of yours, or a sign of a substandard relationship, that they don’t go gaga over you in the way you want (and the way you are experiencing) – they are just wired differently. It’s like dating an introvert and hoping they’ll want to party every night. Not gonna happen.
This risk can easily be mitigated just by understanding the fact that people experience the early stages of love differently and managing your expectations accordingly. Knowing ahead of time that your paramour experiences love in a non-limerent way will allay a lot of fears and misunderstandings.
Alternatively, if mutual limerence really matters to you, then you could take a purist attitude and make a conscious effort to only seek limerents as your dating matches. There are ways to spot the signs.
The second risk for single limerents is if you become limerent for people who are troubled or troublesome. If you find yourself repeatedly succumbing to dodgy limerent objects then it might be a sign that there is something in your past – a formative experienced that distorted your perceptions of romantic appeal – which has made you attracted to people who cannot provide a stable, healthy bond.
In these cases, limerence (or at least the glimmer) is a warning sign of emotional risk, not an exciting romantic possibility.
A pattern of becoming limerent for poor matches does suggest that something is wrong in the process of integrating romantic attachments for you, which may reflect unmet needs from your past.
Vulnerable periods in life
Even if you are not one of those unlucky souls who only feels limerence for difficult people, there are still times in life when the emergence of limerence is likely to be a sign of something being wrong. One of the simplest, and commonest, is becoming complacent about your existing relationship.
A long-term relationship shouldn’t require a lot of work. One of the biggest benefits of stable love is the deep trust that can be cultivated over time as you bond with a partner – a sense that you are a team, on each other’s side, and that your mutual love and security can be taken for granted. You shouldn’t have to be constantly vigilant about mate poaching or infidelity or risks to your family’s harmony.
However, the flip side of contentment is being too laissez-faire and slipping into complacency. Like so much in life, balancing opposing forces is the secret to success. Comfort needs to be balanced by challenge – you need both security and stimulation to keep a relationship satisfying. Too much comfort and it becomes dull, too much drama and it breaks apart.
Limerence increases in midlife. A reasonable hypothesis as to why, is that it’s a period when people start to seriously examine their decisions, their life choices, their future. It can be a time of strain, when domestic responsibilities and limitations can start to feel more like a burden than a blessing. If a new limerent object appears and ignites the long-dormant romantic furnace, it can be a fire hazard.
Although midlife is a common period for these sorts of emotional eruptions, identity crises can come at many other times – triggered by bereavement, divorce, unemployment, or any of the other practical or emotional disasters that life can deliver.
If you have developed the habit of using limerence for mood regulation, then stress can prime your subconscious to seek limerent intoxication as a source of reward – a diversion from your suffering. It’s a crap strategy, but the subconscious is lousy at long term planning. That’s what our executive brains are for.
It can be wise and beneficial to launch a life audit when limerence flares up. It may reveal an escape into fantasy as a way to avoid important but difficult decisions.
How to avoid the risks
All these signs of limerence as a symptom of something else being wrong in life have a common theme: being caught by surprise by an emotional vulnerability you were blind to.
This vulnerability may have deep roots – from childhood attachment problems, or formative experiences that made untrustworthy people subconsciously attractive – or maybe just everyday circumstances that make the thrills of limerence seem extra appealing.
The best way to avoid these risks is to spend more time and effort towards understanding your subconscious motives and drives, and where they come from. That’s when therapy for limerence is most valuable – in gaining self-awareness about the forces that have shaped your personality.
Self-knowledge is one of the elements of purposeful living, and one of the best protections there is against destructive limerence. If you can identify the things that are wrong in life, and correct them, then the emotional vulnerabilities that make limerence more desirable will be neutralised.
Limerence is most often a sign that something is wrong in life when it catches you out, disrupts your plans, and makes you reassess everything you believed. It’s most often embraced when it’s a tantalising alternative to an unhappy status quo.
Someone who is living a life of purpose and fulfilment would have no need for limerence as escape, nor welcome its disruptive effects.
But if they are free to act, and wise to the risks, they can choose to embrace it for the glorious elation it can bring.
“But if they are free to act, and wise to the risks, they can choose to embrace it for the glorious elation it can bring.”
Since we have previously determined that limerence is an addiction, a person addiction, why would we ever want to risk addiction? I am wise to the risks of other addictions and would never flirt with them for glorious elation. Are we saying limerence is a more benign addiction, and thus easier to break when necessary?
Methinks some would disagree.
If I remember correctly, DrL alludes limerence to addiction like, like an addiction to chemical substance or SSRI, but I don’t think it’s a FULL addiction, although our brain was altered somewhat.
When taking it, SSRI controlled my brain; when in limerence, I was still in control of my professional and personal functioning, like many here are doing.
Exercise is also a form of addiction since it brings high to the body, while simultaneously making the body stronger. Many try to cultivate such a benign addiction.
Artistic pursuits or hobbies, like painting or writing, can be addictive, they dull emotional/mental pains and possibly elate mood, should it be broken?
When reciprocated in body and mind, limerence disappears quickly. While unreciprocated, understanding, accepting, and watching limerence as a nature’s phenomenon, one can live with it in peace. One can even change it to unrequited love.
“What is hell? I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love.”
– Fyodor Dostoevsky
Hi Jaideux,
Yeah, it’s a good point, and it’s the tension at the heart of the question as to whether limerence is always bad. Addictions are always bad, and limerence is a behavioural addiction, so… simple? The only thing is that limerence is unusual as addictions go, as it does tend to resolve itself over time if a relationship proceeds well.
The worst aspects of person addiction (intrusive thoughts, compulsive craving, mood fragility) tend to kick in when limerence has carried on for too long in a state of uncertainty and become toxic. That’s when it really becomes detrimental to life, which is why living purposefully can protect you against the biggest downsides.
It’s definitely a balancing act. Limerence can tip over into unhealthy behaviours easily if you are not wise to its nature. It is playing with fire to an extent, and for many people it would be better to just avoid the risks entirely.
Hi Dr L,
Perhaps limerence is only a ‘bad thing’ when it progresses to the detrimental latter stages, post-crystallisation, I think it was termed “deterioration” in one of your blogs. If it never goes that far, its not a full-on addiction with those downsides. On the other hand, when it is consummated, it goes away. Could that be because limerence is only limerence when the full gamut of stages are run. A mutual ‘limerent’, or we might say euphoric early stages of a love affair between consenting adults without ongoing barriers/uncertainty, is not really limerence, rather its something akin to enjoying a drug without getting hopelessly addicted and ending up with a problem addiction.
I think I have experienced that non-problematic version numerous times but only had a problematic version on the one occasion.
@Bewitched.
“Perhaps limerence is only a ‘bad thing’ when it progresses to the detrimental latter stages, post-crystallisation, I think it was termed “deterioration” in one of your blogs. If it never goes that far, its not a full-on addiction with those downsides.”
My understanding of the “deterioration” stage of limerence is that the infatuation is actually fading or becoming less intense at that point – the obsession is in fact diminishing in strength and coming to a natural end.
“Deterioration” in this particular context doesn’t mean the limerent’s life is falling apart or that their mental state is crummy. A person’s mental state may actually improve during deterioration stage because the emotional rollercoaster ride is slowing down.
If a limerent’s life is going to fall apart, that would happen in the crystallisation stage of limerence. Deterioration is when you’re getting over your LO’ crystallisation is when you still want them so bad you might do a whole bunch of uncharacteristic things. 🙂
I think you may be confusing Dr. L’s use of the word “deterioration” with Lucy Bain’s use of the word “dependency”. Yeah, in dependency, people are going to feel pretty lousy – that’s for sure. “Deterioration” would only happen after “dependency”, though. “Deterioration” happens when people are ceasing to feel lovesick – the strength of the feelings are waning.
“Deterioration is when you’re getting over your LO; crystallisation is when you still want them so bad you might do a whole bunch of uncharacteristic things. 🙂”
Let me fix my own punctuation – I wanted a semi-colon after “LO”.
Tennov thought limerence doesn’t come to an abrupt halt. It’s not exactly like a rollercoaster. Rather, limerence ends with a gradual “fading out” of feelings. This “fading out of feelings” takes place during the deterioration stage.
For anyone interested in transferring, apparently you can only do it in the first flushes (the Glimmer?) or the last rushes (deterioration-fading out?) of limerence. If you’re in crystallised limerence, your mind is “locked” securely on one person (i.e. LO) and you won’t be able to transfer until the obsession is broken. Ergo, the wisdom of not “locking onto” the wrong person in the first place.
Australian singer Tina Arena wrote an amazing song called “Chains”. Here are some lyrics that seem to describe the crystallisation stage of limerence rather beautifully:
I pretend I can always leave
Free to go whenever I please
But then the sound of my desperate calls
Echo off these dungeon walls
I’ve crossed the line from mad to sane
A thousand times and back again
I love you baby, I’m in chains
I’m in chains
I’m in chains
I’m in chains
Should have known passing through the gate
That once inside I could not escape
I never thought this could happen to me
Never thought this is where I’d be
Hi Dr. L,
Thanks for breaking down the nuances for us. It’s a good reminder that the occasional LE evolves into a healthy relationship.
Jaideux,
I think another issue is the kind of LOs a limerent becomes limerent for. I think mine have all been unsuitable for anything, well, healthy and long term. So for me, feeling anything remotely like limerence (the longing, the hoping, the ruminating over how the other person feels because I don’t know ) is a sign to back the hell away from the person.
@Marcia.
“So for me, feeling anything remotely like limerence (the longing, the hoping, the ruminating over how the other person feels because I don’t know ) is a sign to back the hell away from the person.”
I’ve found limerence is something I appreciate so much more when I’m not actually experiencing it! 🙂
I think what gets many limerents hooked is a subconscious wish to be desired themselves. For limerents, merely desiring a highly desirable person isn’t enough. The desire has to be returned, and that’s what traps people in obsessing over how reciprocal desire might be effected. 🙂
The involuntary nature of limerence is also a bummer. How can I be this nice, noble, self-sacrificial person when sacrifice is the furthest thing from my mind? I mean, do I look like a professional martyr or something? 🙂
Inappropriate question. So, um, what exactly do you do with men if you don’t worship them? No, don’t answer that. The less I know about such things, the better. But, seriously, you don’t think men were created to be worshipped? You don’t like alabaster brows and marble torsos and ivory thighs dipped in pure gold? What a strange lady you are! 🙂
Excuse me. I have to get back to reading “Song of Solomon”. 🙂
Sammy,
“I’ve found limerence is something I appreciate so much more when I’m not actually experiencing it! 🙂”
Why? It’s like watching everyone else get drunk. 🙂
“Inappropriate question. So, um, what exactly do you do with men if you don’t worship them? No, don’t answer that.”
Oh, no. I intend to answer! 🙂 Are you talking about worshipping beauty? Sure.
But in terms of worshipping other qualities? Show me what you got. 🙂
” You don’t like alabaster brows and marble torsos and ivory thighs dipped in pure gold? ”
I’m not into blondes. 🙂 Bronzed thighs?
Addictions are only bad if they are out of control and harming you. Limerence does not always harm… I can wholeheartedly vouch for that being married to an ex-LO. We don’t really hear about good side of limerence on this site as it caters to those that want to be rid of it. But under the right circumstances it can be a overwhelmingly positive and life affirming experience with zero down-side.
HI Allie, out of more a ‘research interest’, have you previously also fallen in love in a non-limerent manner? Was there no excess anxiety during the LE with your current SO/LO?
It is never clear to me if people experience both or one or the other.
I cannot differentiate btw falling in love and limerence. Sometimes it happens at the same time as a relationship develops, sometimes it happens before (as with SO) and sometimes it happens without. But starts off feeling exactly the same. More joyous when in a relationship I guess.
Same as Allie. Limerence is just where the falling in love process encounters barriers (the red path from Tennov/DrL’s model discussed somewhere else on here lately). Otherwise I can’t differentiate the early bits of past LEs with the early bits of past romantic relationships.
Same here!
Me, I personally use the term limerence only when it turns obsessive and vexing (because of barriers, but also had a bad phase with SO in the beginning of our relationship).
Allie,
„ Romantic love, being one of life’s greatest pleasures,
is addictive. But I would not want have lived a life without it.“
I agree, with all the bad stuff that came with limerence, I wouldn’t want to have missed the good sides of it, and I think the bad stuff was all inside me, my problems with myself probably.
But can I ask you-
Now that you found your SO (ex-LO), would you say, no more limerence for me now, I’ve had and enjoyed it, but nothing more please, no thanks?
Or would you not be averse to another experience of it?
Or , more important, do you think now that you can safely say that with all you went through and learned, you won’t have a destructive limerent episode anymore?
I‘m curious on behalf of myself- I think I‘m post-LE as Limerent Emeritus says and even feel post- limerence, the first time after 3 LEs I’ve got the feeling I might be able to avoid the worst next time I meet a glimmer. But maybe I deceive myself.
After reading Mila’s reply, I’d rethink something from my previous post above slightly.
Thinking back on my past SOs, I think there are definitely times when, even once in a relationship, one partner is more ‘limerent’ than the other. This could be at the beginning or could be as one partner makes an adjustment later on (if, say, the less limerent-prone partner drops any limerent-like initial behaviours, and/or the dynamics of the couple make limerent behaviour creep on in the more limerent-prone partner).
I think I’d want to put my belief like this – *for someone who has the limerent tendencies in the first place (is that ‘tribe’)*, then early-stage love and limerence feel much the same. It can develop into healthy love and is then not limerence. BUT – limerence feeds off uncertainty – so if their SO makes them feel uncertain (or they do it to themselves with that SO), then they will display symptoms not really different to those in unconsummated or unreciprocated ‘red-path’ limerence. But there are also people out there who are never limerent – and they would experience love differently, and *could* even set off worse limerence in their SO (by not reciprocating the limerent’s signals) – speaking from experience.
I don’t know if this adds to or just complicates the debate!
Mila, it took 15 years with SO (exLO) before I became limerent again. I did not know about limerence then but I understood my romantic vulnerability hence already had reflex prevention strategies in place. But I fell for current LO gradually without realising it. By the time I did, I was in too deep for my mental brakes to stop the runaway train that is a full blown LE. Not convinced it is possible to become 100% immune and now not I sure I would want to be.
Hi Allie,
Ah, you are in an LE right know, I somehow assumed that the one for your current SO was the last one. Seen too many Hollywoood films;)
I don’t think I’m 100% immune at all now, I’m even not sure about current LE, there could be some minor slide backs in the future, but I’ve got the feeling that my priorities slightly shifted. While I felt that nothing could be more life-affirming and wonderful than the feeling of being alive that limerence brings, now I cherish the more steady feeling of love and contentment more than the heady stuff. It might all be hormone-related, as I started perimenopause, I think.
Any women here who would say limerence tendencies stopped with menopause? (Probably not.)
I hope for you that your LE isn’t influencing your good relationship and that you can avoid sliding into the dark, obsessed and hopeless phase of limerence! Maybe you will, with all the knowledge you‘ve got now?
o.k. thanks, interesting. I don’t think I have experienced that to it’s fullest extent. I would say I only fell in ‘love’ once, at 19, and it was mutual but sounds like it has to be anyway. It was certainly more than the puppy love gfs in school. Anyhow, a lot of my underlying issues came out in full force (having shown themselves in earlier school age relationships) and I sabotaged the relationship when we started to get very close. After that limerence came out and it was only ever a problem.
On attachment style I land somewhere between an extreme dismissive and disorganized, although I think I was more disorganized when I was young and limerence was an active problem. This might be why i can’t see falling in love and limerence as the same thing, they belong to very different phases in my life, at least in my head…
Anyhow, I obviously have a tiny sample size, so am not sure anything can be generalized out of it.
Hi Jaideux, not being passive-aggressive, genuine question, but do you drink alcohol? In most of the world substance addictive pleasures are widely spread – alcohol is the most obvious, but tobacco is also widely consumed (irregularly) in different forms (hookahs, pipes etc.). Many of these are low-level addictions that are pleasurable when indulged but the vast majority of people aren’t vulnerable to dangerous dependency. But e.g. alcohol is in part pleasurable because there is an underlying addiction, however mild, tobacco I would say maybe even more so.
I do see a big movement these days to broaden the definition of addiction, and to see any form of compulsive behaviour as a damaging addiction, at least in NW Europe, and I guess it is a worldwide phenomenon. Maybe it is the ease of access and low risk of addictive behaviours the internet offers and it is a backlash. Even e.g. many young men are classifying interest in sex as an addiction, when it seems like it is kind of important…. There are all sorts of weird things – rawdogging on planes seems so odd to me.
I might re-frame my view in line with the comments elsewhere here, that maybe the addiction has to be stopped once it has become problematic, but it isn’t always possible to stop it completely. Very few addicts can go from a higher level of dependency to partial dependency, but it’s not impossible. E.g. I used to smoke half a pack a day, now it’s just occasionally on an evening out, so maybe once or twice a month. Smoking has nothing to recommend it, but I think many people find low level limerence acceptable and easier to handle than flagellating themselves because they can’t completely let go.
HJ, I think your analogy between low level limerence to limited drinking or smoking is very reasonable, as long as they are not indulged to the point of uncontrollable.
An addiction on anything, substance or behavioral, should/need be defined ONLY when it becomes uncontrollable by our executive brain and cause significant physiological or psychological stress/harm.
Romantic love, being one of life’s greatest pleasures,
is addictive. But I would not want have lived a life without it.
“But it’s the sweetest pain
running hot through my veins
love is torture
makes me more sure
only love can hurt like this”
Only Love Can Hurt Like This — Paloma Faith
(sorry for lack of link but the video is quite “adult”)
As I told our oldest son, when his lady friend of two plus years dumped him in a text out of nowhere with not context; you can choose to love someone for your whole life, but you don’t get to choose who you will love in life.
Limerence most certainly is a sign that something is wrong in my life. For 18 years, my wife and I had an all right relationship. There certainly were issues, and I think there were some warning signals even from the start, but things were alright until five years ago. That was when I began having a full-blown midlife crisis. I believe I was already starting to question my marriage, and there definitely were some problems in the bedroom. Becoming Limerent for LO #1 — a virtual stranger I met in a bar who wasn’t even into me — was a sure sign. I had been Limerent in the past, but never while our relationship was relatively alright. For 20 years I never experienced it — until I met her.
Looking back, I do think LO #1 is a fairly attractive woman, but there’s nothing all that special about her really She isn’t even really my type. After some soul-searching over the past five years, I began to realize it wasn’t about her. It was what she represented. I felt, and I continue to feel dominated, controlled, and honestly abused in my marriage in many ways. When I met a LO #1, it was part of a courtship ritual really and I think I began to realize that I kind of missed that. I went through hell for a long time until I finally realized 3 1/2 years ago that I wanted it out of my marriage and that nothing was going to change my mind.
So for me, I really do believe that Limerence was an indicator of something seriously wrong in my life. As well as feeling dissatisfied in my marriage, I was also feeling deep dissatisfaction in my family life, my career, my finances, and even my weight and my appearance. For many people, Limerence seems to be the disease itself, but for me, it was merely a symptom.
Immediately before I checked this site, I was thinking to myself how I’ve only really gotten over Limerence in the past five years through transference to someone else. Sure, my feelings faded to a certain extent towards LO #2, but I didn’t really recover from Limerence for her until I met LO #3.
Honestly, this is possibly the toughest LE I’ve ever had in some ways. It’s sort of that so close yet so far away feeling. My wife and I have come close to separating quite recently, although she is still resistant. My current LO is someone I consider a friend and she has shown me at least some validation if I’m being perfectly honest I think this lady is fantastic. I don’t think it’s just Limerent idealization at work. There are so many things on paper objectively that point to this being the type of woman I wish I’d married. I almost feel like saying to her at some point, “Where the hell have you been all my life?” Now, I’m not totally naïve. I doubt very much that she feels the same way. Even if she likes me in someway, she is still holding back and I doubt very much she’s Limerent for me.
In many ways, I’ve been doing quite well the last couple of weeks. I’ve avoided looking at pictures of her. I’ve tried to get my life back on track in other ways. But still the obsessions continue. I got to attend an event last week with some friends I hadn’t seen in a long time. Ordinarily, that would have made me very happy, but what made me sad was that I missed a night out with my usual crowd and my LO came out with them for the first time in a month. I kicked myself for missing the opportunity to see her.
Just now, I crossed a watershed moment just like I did with my previous two LOs. For the first time today I cried over LO #3. But the thing is, I wasn’t just crying over her. I was crying over my situation and how futile it all is. I was crying over how desperately I want out of my marriage and my wife doesn’t feel the same way. There is absolutely no spark left for me with my wife. Any kind of intimacy with her is probably impossible forever more. I don’t want the intimacy back, and frankly, I don’t even want to want it back if that makes any sense. I’m so sad about the prospect of possibly never being with a woman again in my life. I don’t know why my wife doesn’t see that. Life is too short. Why waste it in a dead marriage?
For me, Limerence is most definitely an indicator of other problems in my life. I do realize that is very different from other people. I think it’s my brain’s way of telling me that I should be pair bonding because my wife and I are not intimate and haven’t been for quite a number of years. I also know that I am experiencing depression and anxiety, but I think those things are more situational with me rather than the result of some chemical imbalance in my brain. This is really hard. I wish I was single. I wish I could ask this lady out. I suspect the answer would probably be no anyway, but at least that could help me recover, get over her and date other people. But at the moment I feel like I’m living in limbo. I do think my wife has some psychological problems. I believe she likely has a personality disorder of some type and she is incredibly lacking and self-esteem. She is so obsessed with keeping up with the Joneses and maintaining the façade of a middle class lifestyle, and I think part of the problem is that she doesn’t think she will meet anyone else. Every time I discuss separation and divorce that’s the first thing she brings up. It’s always about the finances and the ability to buy a house, but there is so much more to life than that.
@VL,
Your story is very touching and I feel your sadness. I can identify with the feelings of hopelessness and fear of never finding the right Woman to ever love again. It is pointless to stay in a loveless marriage. The wasted days that go by where you feel like all you want to do is have someone around to connect with, maybe genuinely love them again at some point and it feels like its so far out, that it’s possibly out in another dimension.
I wish I had better advice. If it’s any consolation, being single has it’s disadvantages also. The dating market is crap and I feel like so many Women are afraid of real connection anymore. I watch a lot of dating advice do’s/don’ts channels and podcasts. Glean from them what I can. A lot of them are crap tbh..
You’re LO#3 sounds a lot like my current Lady Friend. Kind, caring, considerate, someone you get along great with. Wish you had met them sooner. All the things that make up what could be the beginning of something great. Yet you also know they probably don’t feel the same. It’s taken me almost 10 months just to get my Lady Friend to do something with me outside of work. Just to get her to commit to this finally has felt like moving a mountain. It’s not really a date but we are going to meet somewhere finally.
What I really want to say is that even when things we’re so bad in my LE, that I could have considered suicide, I knew things couldn’t stay that way. I spent a lot of time in prayer. I begged God for direction. An open door. Someone real besides a LO that doesn’t know a thing how I feel about her on the inside. Things within my own Family haven’t really improved but I can at least say I met someone now and I’ll keep on trying to move the needle till I know I need to move on
I wish you the best of luck with whatever happens in your situation. Don’t lose hope. It won’t always be like this. Know the Community here cares for you and whatever happens.
Aww MJ. I saw that subtle little share in your post! Hope the ‘non date’ goes well… Can you share where you’re going?
Ten months! You definitely haven’t flown in through any windows now, have you?! 😂 I have my fingers crossed for you from the other side of the world 🤞 I feel invested. It’s like Norwegian Slow TV!
Hey @Cordelia,
It is so good to see your post here. I’ve missed you. Unfortunately though I cannot tell you my little moment in the Sun was that. Her Sister got sick, so she had to babysit her infant Nephew on the night we had planned. So it’s been delayed a week. (For now, let me add) I figure if she postpones it again in the future, then she’s just flaking. I’ve not been too sure of her emotional state lately because as I get to know her, I really see how deeply moody she can get and the last thing I want to do is add to her issues. I feel like she likes me enough to be honest, but not brutally honest. (If that makes any least amount of sense 🤪) There’s still something holding her back. I’ve actually kind of seen this behavior from her all along and it’s red flag-ish to me in a way but also challenging. I’m trying to enjoy the chase without being nerve-wracked. I also think it’s the age-gap too. Because 29 year olds definitely don’t think like 53 year olds. She says I give her Dad vibes at times but her and her Dad get along for the most part. So I guess that isn’t a terrible thing.
I actually was telling her one night about the conversation you and I had awhile ago, about not flying through her 2nd floor window. (Referring to you as my friend from Australia) She was telling me about another Co-Worker that was hitting on her awhile ago and she didn’t like the vibes he gave off. She said he was being way too pushy. So I told her about how I’m trying to do the exact opposite and enter her Castle the proper way, through the porticullis. Because that’s the way a true Gentleman does it… I’m not exactly sure if the metaphor hit home with her, but I did my best to explain. It made for a great conversation starter.
I’m glad your invested in my reality show, lol. I’m trying so hard not to turn this into a limerent thing, but admit I do still get that anxious LO-ish feeling at times with her. It’s just not as intense, so I guess it’s because the uncertainty is way less. Pretty much I think I know what I’ve got.
You stay tuned favorite Cheerleader, for updates. I may still need your top-notch advice.🤣
Thanks MJ. I appreciate the kind words. I am sorry to hear you were having suicidal thoughts. They have entered my mind lately too, but I don’t want to end my life. I want to truly live, but this isn’t living. Living in limbo is truly awful. If I act kindly towards my wife, she acts like everything is fine, when it really isn’t. I feel like I have to tighten the screws so tightly and be a complete asshole towards her constantly for months on end before it would finally sink in. But to do that I would end up living in hell. She is completely delusional and burying her head in the sand. I just don’t get it. She isn’t happy with me either. Why is keeping up with the Joneses more important to her than happiness? I made her a financial offer the other day that would have ensured she would be well taken care of, but she doesn’t want to leave this house or this neighbourhood, and that’s just not feasible if we do separate. She could still buy a smaller, cheaper house outright (or close to it) with what I was offering her.
I understand how being single is tough too. Dating is hard these days, and people’s expectations are so high. It must be tough with an “ideal” LO if no one else seems to measure up. I can understand that because I now view my LO #3 as the yardstick I measure all other women against. I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone quite like her. I doubt I ever will, and I don’t think it is realistic that I will ever be with her. Still, I think I would like to be with someone as much like her as possible. I think meeting her and LO #2 taught me what I would like in a woman (LO #2 also shares some of the same appealing qualities even if they are very different people).
@VL,
It does sound like you have a lot on your plate and I’m sorry you have to deal with such a bitter person, who apparently feels like she made a wrong choice by marrying you.
Does your Wife spend a lot of time online? Looking at social media as a means of seeing other peoples perfect realities when infact they probably aren’t so perfect??
Asking because I used to argue with my Daughter about the true friends she had online, versus the fake ones. How her 1900+ friends/followers were probably all fake as hell and couldn’t give 2 $#!+$ less about her if she payed them to.
I feel like the influence is so bad and in your situation, your Wife cares to only look good for everybody because it makes her feel like she’s as good as, if not better than them. The truth probably is more like, nobody really gives a hot damn at all. They are probably all just as miserable, if not more.. All she’s really doing is trying to impress a bunch of nobodys, that probably don’t care very much for her in the first place. The problem with that mentality here is that she’s dragging you down with her.
I’m thinking you probably live in a very well-to-do neighborhood, have provided a good life for her, but she’s just not being fulfilled all the way around. That has to be maddening. Not only for you but especially her. Her biggest fear seems like starting over will afford her less (because it probably will) and she doesn’t want to reflect that to others. Because it will make her look cheap. Even though you have assured her she would be well-off-enough. That isn’t good enough for social media status-quo.
I feel like I have no good advice here other than one of you have to reach a breaking point and ultimately decide what’s best. I’ve been divorced since 2011 and the primary reason for that was because I was not happy or healthy then because I was as selfish as they came. All for having an out of control and out of line sexual craving. For PAs/EAs, Strippers, Porn, you name it. I made the bed, now I’m sleeping in it. I feel like the only way your Wife will understand how good she has it now, cannot be realized until she doesn’t. She doesn’t seem to know what her vows meant when she married you or what marriage would look like years down the road. The challenges and the upkeep.. I’m guilty as hell of this myself. Still trying to pick up the pieces. It may never happen, so now I try and make the best of things.
Having LO on your radar is not helping you much but at least gives you some promise you are still human and relatable. Even though the feelings may not be mutual, don’t go and throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet. LO is just one Woman in a sea of many. I didn’t see this when I was at my limerent worst. Considering suicide seemed logical, however, I kept my faith. Thought of my Children and the positive strides I made besides a dodgy LO. I never even got to know the Woman, for f***s sake. Why should I off myself for a fantasy? How ridiculous is that?
I knew there had to be more than limerence. And there is.
It’s taken me a lot of time to get over the divorce and I do regret the choices that got me here. In a way I still like to think LO is the perfect companion but deep down I know she isn’t. I don’t think any relationship will ever be perfect, as much as the idea of that seems so nice.
You have to decide here what is the best solution and somehow try to convince your Wife of this, so the both of you can amicably move on.
I’m MJ and I approve this message.. I think..
Thanks again, @MJ. My wife and I just had a huge fight. The thing that made it so hard was I talked about separation and divorce, but I talked about it not in the context of a fight. At least it didn’t start out that way. The problem is I have heard from experts that when discussing divorce with your spouse or partner, it is best not to talk about it while fighting, but I just find it even harder to talk about it when it didn’t start off as a fight. It makes my wife even more upset than if I bring it up in the context of a pre-existing fight. She is understandably upset, but she acts like me bringing up the end of our marriage is something she’s never heard before. It’s as if being pleasant and cordial makes her think that I no longer want to end our marriage. I really think my wife has a difficult time understanding grey. In her world, everything should be black and white.
You asked about her social media activity, and the truth of the matter is she doesn’t have a huge social media presence. But my wife is the sort of person who seems to want a perfect life and has this idea that if everything isn’t like some Hallmark Christmas movie or a Norman Rockwell painting, everything is all lost. She sometimes has unreasonable expectations about how everyone should behave in this traditional manner with a perfect family life. Unfortunately real life isn’t like that.
I wouldn’t say we live in a highly prestigious area. We live in a nice neighbourhood for sure, but our house isn’t exactly huge. Still, it is fairly new and half decent, and the town where we live is quite a bit more expensive than the next town, which is much more blue-collar (my LO lives there but she is successful with her own house). Even with a little bit of a mortgage left on our house, if we sold it, there would be enough money for my wife to buy a smaller place outright, and I could probably also afford a decent down payment on a place. But neither one of us could afford a house anything like the one we have currently in the same town. I’m fine with that, but she isn’t. She says she loves me, but somehow, whenever we talk about separation and divorce, our living situation and our finances are the first things she brings up, not how she can’t bear to lose me.
The other thing is, she has very few friends nowadays and she’s from out of town. On the other hand, I’m becoming much more of a social butterfly these days. I do worry about her if we ever separated because she has so few friends and no family nearby. She could very well decide to move back to her hometown.
I know logically that I am very unlikely to ever end up with my LO, but she does seem to be absolutely fantastic. There are so many incredible things about her that just make me think I would love to be with someone like her. I also got the feeling that there was some interest on her part too, but I think she may have changed her mind. That could simply be because I’m married. At one point, I thought my friend may have tried to set me up with her, and I mentioned something to her about that. After all, he had done it with two of my other friends in the past. It turned out he hadn’t said anything to her about me, and it was a little embarrassing. But it was strange that when we were talking about this, she did say to me that she wouldn’t do anything to lead me on because I’m married. I found that a little strange and perhaps maybe even a bit of a good sign because why would she say that if there was no interest on her part? At one point, she seemed quite unfriendly towards me, and I wondered if it could even have been that she was a little disappointed when she found out I’m married. I’m probably a pompous ass for thinking this, but you know how it is in our limerent minds. The last couple of times I’ve seen her we got along really well, but I was quite sad after the last time when she wouldn’t accept my friend request on Facebook. I know she is quite a private person in many ways, so it could have something to do with that. Or it may have just simply been that she didn’t want to lead on a married man. I can respect that.
On the other hand, I know that I’m not currently the best version of myself that I can and will be. I do have some definite fitness, weight loss, personal improvement and financial goals that I’m going to pursue. I think I might be more attractive to women when that happens. I don’t think I’m a bad looking guy, and I have had some interest from some very attractive women, but I’m also somewhat lacking in self-confidence at the moment. More than anything I’d like to lose some weight and get even more serious at the gym.
I know that thinking about anyone else is probably about 10 steps ahead of where I should be right now. But I can’t help it. I’ve been living in limbo for so many years with my wife. This may not sound very nice, but I wish I could be with a woman. I think just about anyone would develop a wandering eye in my situation. I have committed not to cheat on my wife while we are still living under the same roof. But my patience is wearing incredibly thin. I wish my wife would just let me go so I can be an honest man and be able to date (although not right away). At the moment, I look, but I certainly don’t touch. I do get these obsessions with one woman at a time, but at least if I could date, I could ask the person out, get rejected and move on. I can’t do that right now.
At least with my current LO I think I have a better idea of the type of woman I would like to end up with if I can ever end my marriage. This lady is perfect. She is my age or maybe slightly older. She is tall, beautiful, curvaceous, smart classy, and she appears to be successful. She is fun-loving, but still goal-oriented, and not a complete party animal who engages in burning the candle at both ends. There is a lot of overlap with our musical tastes, and I really like how she’s into heavy rock like me. Music is an important part of my life, and I think if I’m ever in a situation to be in a relationship with another woman, I would like to meet someone who can enjoy music with me. I also like how she’s funny and a decent person with morals. So, at least I feel like she may have given me an idea of what I might be looking for in the future, even if it’s unlikely to actually be her.
“It’s as if being pleasant and cordial makes her think that I no longer want to end our marriage.’
VL, thanks for this. I’ve been thinking about this – for a friend, really! 😉 His rose-colored, desperate optimism seems to make it impossible for him to deal with his SO’s good days. When she acts civil toward him he always takes it as some huge victory and sign that things are turning for the better, that she has changed her mind about their marriage being over. But she has said nothing to let him believe that. Then when she has bad days, he is let down all over again, like something new and terrible suddenly happened.
Also the fact is that she acts terrible towards him most of the time, and he has said that the only reason he is hanging in there is for the kids. (He could not live with only seeing them on the weekends.)
I really don’t have a solution for this. Sorry. Just wanted to let you know how common this is. The human mind is so resilient that it comes up with the craziest strategies to drive down all cognitive dissonance (i.e. pushes down all information that conflicts with its desires).
Another thing that comes up in these discussions on LwL and with my friend is: “SO has everything anyone could possibly want: a beautiful, big house, kids, nice things, white picket fence, what else could she possibly want??” Well, sorry but none of that – except the kids – matters if you’re unhappy. And she is not “anyone”, not everyone wants the same things! Have you (talking about my friend here) asked what she – or you for that matter – wants? Or have you gone along with some template of “a perfect life”?
For me it’s so hard to understand the former line of thinking. How can you think that shared history and jointly acquired material things mandate you to stay together in the future if you are unhappy?
Thanks, had to vent!
Thanks @Trifles. My wife and I have been together for over 20 years. While there were warning signs right from the start, there were pleasant and happy memories. I care about her and still love her in many ways. It isn’t in me to be a total asshole to her 24/7, but she has been bossy, controlling, nagging, belittling and gaslighting towards me. She has insulted my masculinity and called me homophobic slurs. She has accused me of cheating many times, even with a male friend (I am totally straight). She has been abusive towards our daughter, and the police and child protection authorities have been to our door to deal with their often violent altercations. My daughter has begged me many times to divorce her and said she will never forgive me if I don’t take her out of this toxic, abusive environment. There is absolutely no spark left for me. My wife feels like my mother, and the thought of intimacy with her feels like incest by now.
I don’t know for the life of me why she is pushing to stay in a dead marriage at all costs. She asks about counselling. I told her I would go to counselling with her, but I want something totally different from the counselling than what she does.
I hope I am not like your friend’s SO. I am trying to be compassionate and empathetic towards my wife, but you’re right; she can’t deal with the cognitive dissonance. Everything is so black and white in her mind; either we’re totally fine and staying together forever, or we’re sworn enemies who wish death upon each other. I just wish we could split amicably and stay in touch. I still love her and wish her all the best, but unfortunately I don’t think the best for her is me.
I didn’t realize your lady friend was so much younger than you. I wonder sometimes what attracts people to someone so different in age. I know a few couples who lived happily with a large age gap. I’m sure once you reach a certain age it’s not a big deal, but someone in their early 30s or 60s would feel like they’re in a completely different stage of life from me (in my late 40s). If she has a young nephew, is she wanting children of her own? I’m just a big believer in finding these things out early on before falling in love with someone (who may be amazing!) but you’re not compatible with.
I’m all about compatibility these days. I doubt I’ll ever romantically date again because once there’s physical affection, it’s so hard to leave even if it isn’t right. It’d be great if we could be friends first, but men don’t seem to want to be my friend. They’ll help me out (not that I ever really ask but when I have, they’re eager), reply to my messages promptly, but they never initiate. Never just send a message saying ‘hey how’s things? Want to grab a coffee?’ even though I ask them or interact with their social media by commenting on a good photo etc. One ‘friend’ interacted with my social media a bit. He’s single and has been for a while so even if my intentions weren’t romantic, there was no SO to upset. I asked if he wanted to catch up sometime (we were friends 15 years ago but just moved on to different circles) and nope. Not keen. I know I’m kind and I apologize when I’ve stuffed up. I’m definitely hilarious and somewhat intelligent! At the gym (and gym social events) I chat to everyone and get along with most of them. Given the odd compliment I’ve received, pretty sure I’m more attractive than Shrek.
But I’m feeling rejected. And as I said to a friend recently, I find friendship rejection much harder to bear than romantic rejection. If it was just a couple of people, that’d be fine. But it’s literally every guy I know. Maybe I have a man-repellent odor 😏 I have no trouble forming and maintaining friendships with women.
So maybe that’s how to cure limerence – become as disillusioned as me. I don’t even hope any more. This isn’t to say I’m not mostly happy on my own. But it’s the choice I had to make given men can’t seem to offer me what I’m looking for. No sense banging my head against the wall. I just need to be happy with where I’m at. At least I’m free of limerence.
@ Cordelia,
She’s ironically the same age as LO but only older by a little over 2 months, so yes that is a big draw for me. Not only that but she is super friendly and easy to get along with. I wouldn’t say she is the most outgoing person though. She does consider herself an avoidant and an introvert. She likes her alone time so I keep myself completely aware of her body language. It’s pretty obvious when she wants to be left alone. Somehow I’ve maintained this friendship and moved the needle over the past few months but she isn’t ready to date. I think we’re finally going to meet for coffee soon so it’s baby steps. I’m holding out for more but just have to move on her time so it doesn’t seem pushy.
I never want it to become a limerent thing either, so I try to push back on the intensity of my feelings because I think it would overwhelm her and not be very good for my psyche either. I get an anxious feeling at times when she gets moody or talks to other guys at work, but it still doesn’t take me over emotionally like the depressive moments I felt during my limerent worst. I feel like she’s a positive person at this point. Some potential red flags are around, but they’re not waving in my face. I don’t think there will ever be a perfect person for me.
(Unless I count LO-Yeah right.. 🤣)
Seems like your doing ok with the single life for now and not being limerent. Don’t consider yourself rejected. Maybe the right one hasn’t come along yet. I get what you mean about not wanting to be romantically involved. Pretty sure that’s why Lady Friend is where she’s at now too. It does complicate things.
She’s coming off a 10 year relationship and I feel like it was very emotionally damaging to her. At least from what little she’s revealed. She doesn’t tell me much, but I let her know it’s ok if she ever needs to talk. Either about that or anything really. I just like reminding her I’m always available. It’s nice having her around and makes being at work so much less stressful now. It’s crazy how much being in limerence can be so debilitating.
I still have sad moments over LO, but they don’t wear me out as much. NC has helped but I still love looking at her picture. Still sometimes wish she had never happened. Perhaps one day I’ll figure out why the madness..
Again it’s nice to see your post. I hope you’ll come back more often. I know I’m not the only one that misses you, lol..
I found a band on iiTunes a few months ago, that’s from Australia I believe called, Cousin Tony’s Brand New Firebird.. Have you heard of them?? They have a unique sound. I thought of my favorite Cheerleader..
MJ
I know that I have mentioned it here before on LwL but as quickly as the recent posts cycle you may have not have seen it; but I found out through my boos that LO is seeing another man. He showed me her Facebook and he looks to be at least my age if not older. Like the *sshole my bodd is suggested that LO was with him for his money. (As his job listed in his bio is quite lucrative.) Just to piss me off. Which he was successful at. Reading your post here to Cordellia made me hope that, despite my apprehensions about this man, that he is the 1% of men with much younger women that you are in too. I hope LO has found her own MJ and I am wrong.
@Adam,
I did see the post about it. I’m sorry about the negative reaction it gave you. I suppose that would’ve pissed me off too. Especially coming from a Manager.
I kinda felt that way when I found out LOs guy started at the Company in 1999. So at the very youngest, he was 18 then. LO would’ve been only 4. So I know there is at least a 14 year age gap between them. I’m pretty sure it’s more than that though because he could easily be my age and possibly even older. I still see him from time time. Usually leaving work but I never talk to him. Have no reason to really. I get a little jealous because I know he’s going home to LO. Or she’s going to see him. In a way I wish I could see her again but then I think I’m better off without. Because I’ll just end up in limerent land because that’s what she still does to me. Nothing about that will probably ever be anything like I want it anyway, so why waste the time? Especially if she’s unavailable. Maybe I’ll just try to say hi if I ever see her. You never know.
I guess in your case, you probably dodged a bullet when LO came back that time to get her old job back. I know it would have been nice to see her, but would that have been good for you or Momma? Knowing the wheels LO turns for you? You’ve made some good progress and have been very helpful to many on this forum. It would be unfortunate to suffer another setback. Having LO around would be nice I bet, but try to remember the mess LiS is in with his work LO.. Ain’t no way I would even slightly entertain any Woman if I was still married. Now that I know what it’s like to lose a good Wife and not be married to her, because of my dumb, horndog ass.
If there is any chance in this Universe, things ever work out with Lady Friend and I, I will adore her and her only, with every ounce of my very being.
Believe that.. 👌🏻👈🏻
@MJ
Yeah nah (how’s that for Aussie slang?) I’ve never heard of that Firebird crowd. I looked them up. Not really my kinda music 🎶
It’s sweet of you to say I’m missed. I, being the unusual person I am, very rarely miss anyone. I remember when I lived overseas, there were three friends who left before I did. I was absolutely brokenhearted. 😔 One of them was LO. The other two were just amazing people who loved me as much as I loved them. I haven’t met anyone since who lights me up the way those two people did. The other two (one guy one girl, both came out as gay years later) live on the other side of Australia and we barely keep in touch now. There was a genuine love between us, but with one of them, we admit it was confusing. They both have partners and I suspect it’s why they don’t really keep in touch. When we do, the love is still there. But it wasn’t limerence (on my part anyway). Just love in its purest ‘I want the best for you’ form. Funny how your comment got me thinking about all of that! It’s not something that really ever crosses my mind.
I don’t come here often because the blog isn’t really relevant for me any more. When I have a moment to read the comments I look to see where you and a few others are at. You’re really the only one with a reality show in progress, so I occasionally look for the next installment 😆 I sometimes wonder whatever happened to C for Cat…
I got some great advice here when I was worried I may be an LO and I haven’t had any issues for almost a year now. But putting in those boundaries has also meant pretty much zero relationships with men because they can’t respect those boundaries! But I absolutely hated the uncertainty of whether I was being used for validation or if they were genuinely interested. Either way, their lack of openness meant they were never going to be my type anyway.
So I just look for inspiration from all those amazing single women out there like Jennifer Aniston, Jane Fonda, Drew Barrymore and Pamela Anderson. They all say they’re happy and single by choice. They work on themselves, their careers, families, and enjoy healthy relationships with friends. I think they’re doing alright! 💜💚
CMC,
There’s a reason you’re having trouble finding what you’re looking for. Attachment Theory predicts it. In terms of finding suitable candidates to spend time with, as a function of age, it’s not so much a “dating pool” as it is a sedimentation tank.
The answer is there are simply fewer suitable candidates in the market. As a function of age, people with stable attachment styles eventually pair up and go out of the market leaving Avoidants and Anxious. People with stable attachments don’t usually voluntarily re-enter the market. If they do, and want to re-attach, they probably won’t stay on the market long. They’re high-value candidates. They’re likely to be looking for something more than companionship.
If you’re looking for companionship, a Dismissive-Avoidant would likely be your best bet. But, an aging DA might not see companionship as offering any benefit. And, then, there is simple logistics. How many candidates do you encounter at all?
Fron a DAs perspective, Tanya Tucker said it pretty well,
“Standin’ beside the ocean
Throwing rocks out in the bay
I should look for companionship
But it just gets in my way”
– “Dancing the Night Away” – Tanya Tucker (1977)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQVNvqoASjU
I don’t think Tanya had DAs in mind when she sang it but it applies to DAs.
MJ
I remember Mila’s response to that post. And every time my limerent brain wants to entertain thoughts of her and this man, I remember what she said. “What if she found a man that does care for her? What if she doesn’t need to be rescued? Wouldn’t that be great?”
And you are right. I know my brain lit up when I heard that. Damn dopamine. But you are right that it would have been very disastrous for me.
Last weekend, sometime either Friday night or Saturday morning I had a good dream about that whole situation probably thanks to Mila’s response. In this dream I got to see LO again, meet the man she’s with and her daughter (oh boy it’s been a long time; she’s 18-19 years old now) and her (possibly I don’t know if she has one) boyfriend. And it was all smiles and happy, no limerence, no rescue complex. Just a normal healthy interaction between all of us. I was in a good mood all day Saturday.
I’d like to think if that ever happened I would have that kind of response. But I dare not test limerence again, and just be happy to know her and her daughter are doing well.
I’m rooting for you and your Lady Friend. Whether she’s always Lady Friend or more I wish you two the best. You have been a great help to me in the time I have known you my brother. I’m imaging in my head you and Lady Friend at a karaoke bar and you singing Gallery’s Nice To Be With You to her. 🙂
“Honey I got the notion
you cause a commotion in my soul”
@LE
Haha always there with a hard dose of reality! A good friend and I were saying the exact thing the other day. We will likely be on our own forever now.
I am definitely not interested in an anxious/avoidant. I’m not interested in anyone who hasn’t done some serious work with a psych. I have done a lot myself and I would go backwards in the wrong company. I’m also not saying I only want companionship. I just need friendship first. I will not date to find out if I like someone and men seem to think that if I find them physically attractive that should be enough to go on. Ahhh no! I need way more info than that. Romance (or limerence) is like a drug! Go without it for long enough and you have no idea what you’re missing. Have a taste and your brain will have you going back for more even if it’s bad for you. And I might really like an amazing person, but we may not be compatible. Hence the need for a solid friendship foundation for me.
I tend to attract younger men. Usually around ten years younger or more. As I said to MJ, I feel they’re in a different stage of life from me, but I definitely take these things on a case by case basis. Yes, the pool is smaller. And that’s OK. I have experienced great love in various forms in my lifetime. As lovely as it would be to find healthy romantic love, it would really just be the icing on the cake. My heart is full with what I have 💝
It’s late and I’m typing without my glasses on so excuse any typos!
Call me Cordelia 😊
In the terms of the remaining life goal, I’m in the same boat with you — Caring friendship first! Had tried and was so disappointed, I have simply ignored the market. I’m not looking for anything but keep my eyes open….
Like you, I’m trying to focus on quality of my trivial life from day to day, and hour to hour, which is affected only by my physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual activities or reactivities… Holding NO expectations of any kind but enjoy what I already have, e.g. GF — Ghost Friendship, always brings me inner peace. If able to imagine and scrabble, then I get High…
I come here daily (a bit too much) to sharpen my ESL pen and keep growing in my own odd ways, keep freeing myself from my extremely repressive and conforming COO upbringing, and old traumas… It will take a lifetime, I believe, to reverse some old brainwash and scarred impacts…
Wish you doing well in your new community and hope to see more your very attractive face 👽 here!
CMC,
LO #4 described herself as an “avoidant INTJ.” As an avoidant ENTJ with a weak E value, I find that demographic very appealing. My MBTI scores changed over 15 years with the exception of the E. It remained exactly the same.
Dr. Marion Solomon contends that it’s unlikely two avoidants can craft a successful long-term relationship. I think that in general that’s probably true but I also think that two DAs could craft a perfectly marvelous acquaintance but they would both have to meet some very specific criteria.
And, for that to happen would take an Act of God.
„Last weekend, sometime either Friday night or Saturday morning I had a good dream about that whole situation probably thanks to Mila’s response. In this dream I got to see LO again, meet the man she’s with and her daughter (oh boy it’s been a long time; she’s 18-19 years old now) and her (possibly I don’t know if she has one) boyfriend. And it was all smiles and happy, no limerence, no rescue complex. Just a normal healthy interaction between all of us. I was in a good mood all day Saturday.“
I‘m so happy that I might have triggered a happy dream for you!
I think it shows that you genuinely wish the best for her, be it even with another guy.
Also, I wanted to add a speculation to the way your boss implied that she got together with the guy for the money- he certainly knows you had a crush, and he thinks it would please you if he insinuated that she doesn’t really care for this guy , a bit like “no need to be jealous “ or “he’s no match for you”, completely misjudging your state of mind. So, only trying to have a bit of a bad gossip about her with you, not something based on any facts.
Since you don’t see her anyway, isn’t it happier for both of you to assume she chose right and has a good life? I do hope very much that it’s the case🙏🏻
Thanks ❄️🐦🔥
It’s always nice to know I’m in good company ☺️
@LE
Good thing I’m resilient or I might be crying in my cornflakes this morning 😅
‘Act of God’ huh? 🤔 Are you saying you’ve deduced I’m dismissive avoidant, or is this just your own pondering?
I once took an MBPT. I don’t remember the outcome other than I felt it wasn’t quite right. I found it impossible because I knew I’d answer differently the following day depending on my mood and how I interpreted the questions.
I don’t believe I’m dismissive or avoidant. Maybe I am when I’m with the wrong person. I wasn’t a couple of years back when I was with a wonderful man that I trusted right from the start. But, we weren’t compatible. No fault of his or mine. I loved him dearly.
Although, I didn’t miss him when I ended things! Maybe because we weren’t able to see each other more than a couple of times a week over the year we were together.
That said, I’d 1000 times over rather be alone than let the fear of being alone stop me from leaving a relationship that wasn’t fulfilling. I believe a lot of single people become much pickier because it IS so good being alone (if you’re privileged enough to have the freedom to do what you want). A partner would have to ADD to my life, and you’re right, I simply don’t meet anyone that I feel would make my life better than it is.
CSC,
I wasn’t speculating on your attachment style at all.
I was speculating on whether LO #4 and I could have had a LTR had circumstances been different.
“- Limerent Emeritus Gold
– The Essential Limerent Emeritus
– The Best of Limerent Emeritus
– The Stories Remain The Same – The Evolution of Limerent Emeritus”
LE,
I’d like to see, Limerent Emeritus-Unfiltered, Unglued and Unapologetic.. 🤣
Or can it already be found under “Gold”
“Be sure to make the check out to Mean Old Broad Society.”
Marcia,
I’ll write a check too and will be waiting for my complimentary gift.
Btw, 53 isn’t Old and certainly doesn’t have to be Mean.. 😉
Hi Snow,
if one truly wants to help people, one takes an approach that the other person can open up to. I don’t see that LaR or me opened up to your approach. Calling people negative adjectives never helps, in my experience. That’s all.
Mila,
Thanks (again) for your understanding towards me. You’ve been great.
Snow says the adjectives in question were aimed at sentiments in one small fragment of what I said, not at me as a person. Also that there are cultural and ESL differences that caused my words to be understood differently to how I meant them. And that I said triggering words (for her). Snow – I accept these things.
I think it is best for us to move on now with any learnings, or not, that we feel we have gained from that experience. Snow and I have generally had very constructive chats, so this one can go down for what it was – a blip that comes down to only having textual communication available. We could sort it in 5 minutes over coffee. Mmm coffee!
Mila,
“Calling people negative adjectives never helps, in my experience.“
I agree with your statement! However, just like you initially did with your opinion (smugness) for his words, I did not give LaR, as a well-round person, my negative adjectives, but for his very specific thought/idea. I don’t know him or you in reality (or any of you here, besides DrL a little bit), how could I judge any ghost in the reality dominion? I also apologized right away to him for the upset tone of my voice, but not for my opinions.
Again and again, I stressed that I tried my best to separate people and their entitled ideas/thoughts, and mentioned that there are scenarios in which we (collective) like a person, but not all his/her views; or in which we dislike a person (or a GE), but you still agree with some of his/her ideas.
Everyone has both “negative and positive” stands based on our subjective lens that is heavily colored/coated by our local cultures and personal experiences. If one cannot voice opposite views even here , then this place will be an echo chamber, losing its upmost benefits — authentic views from all walks of life around the realist world and possible doses of remedies to ease or cure individual LE pains.
As an extreme minority and an odd ball here, I never presume that I am able to HELP anyone here, but merely present my opinions with good intentions. In your case, I felt sorry and compassionate for your recurring agitated state of due to constantly uncontrolled situational changes.
In LaR’s foggy situation , I felt for his MFF and strongly criticized the ungrateful and cynical thoughts about his MFF (in this life no one else owes us anything, good LO’s sincere willingness to give us beneficial friendship or limerence-affection need to be truly appreciated — my personal view), and caveated that she might get hurt, if he does not put himself in her shoe as a decade-long, substantial friend. In none of your situations it was for my own ego or some gains, but was focused on you and the people involved in your life.
I agree with you about my style of approach, and said I’m quite undiplomatic and Stoic, with limit ESL skills. I read you guys’ posts to each other and recognize honey-coated, sympathetic, and empathetic “smoothies” and “brownies”, which is very psychological soothing (but could enable or elongate some existing pains — my penny opinion). Due to time constraints, I prefer straightforward, fast, and concise approaches to my point — a dose of “bitter herbs” without sugar coated.
I know my dry, sharp words are hard to stomach, but communication skills can’t be improved over night; I’m trying to learn. In addition, LaR also said that he wanted to be more Stoic; If he can’t take opposing views from a caring GF in a ghost land, what would happen if trolls get on his case??
At the bottom line, it’s up to you to think whether I really care about you or your cases, after spending so much time day or night — 3:26am now.
LaR,
It would only take 3 minutes in person to say and be understood what I really meant.
Sorry to contradict you again! But you got an A- in your first “test” for Stoicism 😏
I need to run for a bit sleep before getting up for teaching…
Snow,
🥈
I think I’ve got the gist of the ‘cultural understanding difference’ point in ref to my now famous words in question. I don’t mind that you have put MFF’s possible perspective either. We have worked this out as best we can, and there is no residual ill feeling from my side so don’t worry.
We are bound to be a sensitive bunch of 👻 simply because of the reason we’re all here, if nothing else.
Yeah, please sleep … I know we have like about 6 hours’ time difference, but I was going to ask what you were doing still up when I have already had a night’s sleep and woken up again for the next day!
LaR,
That’s TTS (top top secret) 🤐
🐦🔥 does not follow human 👻 logistic or logic, having no sense of time but dimensions….😉
Need to corrupt some young mind now…
MJ,
“Btw, 53 isn’t Old”
What are you on and can I please have some of it? 🙂
“and certainly doesn’t have to be Mean.. 😉”
Most middle-aged women are mean. 🙂
But 53 isn’t old! And I’m not mean! 🙂
Miss Marcia
You aren’t mean. You’re candid but with tact.
I’ve found in my own old age I have less desire to sugar coat things. Though I will admit that a bit of vodka helps loosen my tongue. 🙂
I am always glad to see your name in recent posts even if I have no response to post.
@LE
Thanks for clarifying! Between your first and second responses I got a bit confused as to who you thought was DA! I was wondering if my posts come across like that. I suppose I’ll only know if I ever find romance again ☺️
CMC,
There are ways to determine your attachment style. Stable, Anxious and Avoidant are the 3 main categories. There are sub-types such as Dismissive-Avoidants, Fearful-Avoidants (according to one NIMH paper, the attachment style of Borderlines).
The literature says that it’s possible to change your attachment style but it takes an average of 7 years under to achieve what’s called “an earned secure attachment.” I think being with my wife changed mine for the better but it took a long time for me to believe that she wouldn’t be taking off on me like the other women in my life had.
Most attachment assessments are pretty simplistic so the only way to gain confidence in what your style is is to get professional help.
Between neuroscience and psychology, limerence makes sense. Like a lot of addictions, understanding it doesn’t necessarily make it easier to deal with.
It took 20 years and two therapists to finally get the idea that the failure of my relationship with LO #2 wasn’t a tale worthy of epic poetry or grand opera stemming from a cruel cosmos.
Nope, in the therapists’ opinion LO #2 was a borderline waif and my mother was likely a borderline waif which left me with a vulnerability to them. I got a faint hint of waif from LO #4 but I never got to know her well enough to make an informed guess at that. What I know was that LO #4 triggered a response in me going back to early childhood.
Damn, science!
LE,
“Damn, science!”
People don’t get serious or break up for two main reasons:
1.) They’re not compatible. (Their “stuff” doesn’t mesh with the other person’s “stuff.” Everybody has “stuff.”);
2.) One person is feeling it less.
The second reason really hurts if you’re the one who wants more, but often that person who claims they “aren’t ready,” for example, becomes ready … when they meet the right person. Or the person they’re willing to commit to indefinitely.
Marcia,
I agree with your assessments. The question is why we weren’t compatible. And, as DrL points out, we can fall for the wrong people. I certainly did.
LO #2 explained our incompatibility to me.
“I can’t control you. You don’t need me. You were only with me because you wanted to be. There was nothing to bind you to me. I was afraid that one day you’d wake up and not want to be with me. If I gave myself to you and you left, I’d be devastated…You did everything I ever asked you to. The harder you tried, the more I resented you for it. I made things so hard for you.”
My friend, the LCSW who actually knew LO #2 when we were dating, called that a confession. She said that everything I needed to know about my relationship with LO #2 was in that paragraph and when I understood it, things would come together. She was right but it took a lot more work to understand.
One of the therapists I worked with said that was a classic example of a Fearful-Avoidant attachment style. I asked the therapist if, in her professional opinion, LO #2 and I could have ever had a healthy, reciprocal relationship and the therapist said, “No.” The therapist said, “You’ve convinced me that she’s a borderline, quit trying to convince yourself that she’s not.”
The therapist also recommended that if I ever did become available to never re-engage LO #2 because it’s not that borderlines can’t change, it’s just that they usually don’t.
LE,
I agree with your assessments. The question is why we weren’t compatible.
You’ve also written on previous posts she wanted to date around a bit. Sounds like reason number 2 was in there as well.
There’s nothing you can do about reason number 2. I’ve been there myself. It’s very painful. But they want it or they don’t.
I agree with you about falling for the wrong people. And I certainly can relate. If that’s the case, it’s good to assess. Why does a certain personality type trigger me? Why is it bad for me? Can I work on that in myself and learn to avoid that type of personality?
@Marcia: I have a similar reaction to all the talk about avoidants etc. I remember when everybody was an empath…
Serial Limerent,
Not sure what you mean by empaths.
I actually did date an avoidant. I thought he couldn’t commit to anyone. But I came to find out he had in the past. Not sure what happened with her, but he was at least willing. And wasn’t with me. That hurts to find out, but it is what it is.
Marcia,
When LO #2, was back on her last pass, she told me that she was considering doing her next gypsy nurse gig on Long Island.
Coincidentally, she had told me that her roommate’s BF lived on Long Island. After I kicked her to the curb, she went to Long Island and they moved back to Seattle. He went to work for the guy who introduced me to LO #2. He remained a professional contact so we could get updates.
I was married less than a year after I said goodbye to LO #2. They were engaged less than a year after that and married a year later.
Fast forward 2 years. I was talking to the guy and he said that LO #2 and her husband were divorcing. The guy said that her husband told him that it was like a switch flipped in her and he was “shellshocked” and didn’t know what hit him. She had filed about 2.5 years in.
I told him that her husband couldn’t have known what hit him. He hadn’t spent enough time around her.
She sent me a FB friend request 25 years after we split. She had a BF. I didn’t accept and before I stopped looking at her on the Internet, I learned they had married about 6 years later. I have no idea if they’re still married.
I may be 1-1 in marriage proposals but I’m in the 36th inning of my only marriage.
I win!
LE,
That she later divorced is irrelevant to our discussion. She was willing with him.
The right person wants to be with you.
There’s all your time in therapy. I summed it up for you in one sentence. 😀
That, and don’t date someone who is like one of your parents. Most of us do at some point until we figure it out.
Marcia,
Where were you when I was grinding through all this? Think of all the time and money I could have saved!
You’re right but I’m not paying you!
LO #2 stood in my living room and said, “If I sleep with you now, you’ll own me again.” I declined the offer and less than a year later was married to another woman.
25 years later after one failed marriage, she sent me the FB friend request and I declined that. 6 years later she married someone else.
It doesn’t bother me that she took the chance with someone else. I rejected her twice.
Marcia,
LO #4’s take on LO #2 was I was “the one who got away” to LO #2.
I like that idea.
LE,
You should pay me! You are cheap! 😀
I wish I was one of those people who had good parents and didn’t have to worry about unhealthy attachment patterns, trauma bonding, etc. I envy people who can fall in love and not worry it might be the worst person for them. 😀
In terms of who got away… does it matter? It’s been a million years, right? The “big one” I rejected got married fairly quickly afterward. I highly doubt he’s been torn up about me throughout the years and he was probably ok once he moved on to another woman. I didn’t feel like I “won” because I dumped him. Honestly, I just wanted it to be over and for him to accept it.
@Marcia “Empath” is a pop psychology term that was used a lot several years ago, especially when talking about who was a likely victim of a narcissist.
Marcia,
Are you by chance a 501.c(3)? Maybe then I could swing a donation to Marcia’s Foundation for Recovering Limerents.
As for winning, it isn’t about who rejected who, it was about if she didn’t want to be with me, why did she circle back twice?
U2’s “With or Without You” came on the radio. LO #2 said that was how she felt about me. She couldn’t live with me but didn’t want to live without me.
After her great confession, I asked her what she wanted from me. She said that she wanted to stop feeling miserable all the time. My response was that she was where she chose to be, doing what she chose to do and she was sleeping with who she chose to sleep with. Who was making her miserable.?
She hung up on me.
I told that story to a therapist. She said that it was an inspired response.
PTSD is a wonderful thing…
LE,
„With or without you“ played a role in my second LE too- classic limerence song.
Mila,
LO #2 used lyrics from “I Still Can’t Find What I’m Looking For” at least twice.
I really liked “The Joshua Tree” album until LO #2 co-opted it.
LO #2 claimed to have undergone a Past Life Regression. The last time we tangled was in the late Middle Ages. We were no more successful in that life than we were in this one.
I think she spent the intervening 800 years as a feral cat.
LE,
“Are you by chance a 501.c(3)?”
Yeah. I am. Go ahead and write me that check. 🙂
“As for winning, it isn’t about who rejected who, it was about if she didn’t want to be with me, why did she circle back twice?”
Fear, no other viable options on the horizon, missing you.
I circled back around to the one I dumped. I shouldn’t have done that. It was selfish.
“U2’s “With or Without You” came on the radio. LO #2 said that was how she felt about me. She couldn’t live with me but didn’t want to live without me.
After her great confession, I asked her what she wanted from me. She said that she wanted to stop feeling miserable all the time. My response was that she was where she chose to be, doing what she chose to do and she was sleeping with who she chose to sleep with. Who was making her miserable.?
She hung up on me.”
Your relationship sounds like high drama. Can I ask this: Weren’t you getting tired of it?
„ LO #2 claimed to have undergone a Past Life Regression. The last time we tangled was in the late Middle Ages“
My god, she truly sounds like a challenging person.
Was she part of the Spanish Inquisition?
My second sounds lame, compared..
„ I think she spent the intervening 800 years as a feral cat.“😂
*second LE
Marcia,
As soon as I get that $6 million from that dead Nigerian oil magnate, I’ll send it your way.
And, yeah, it did get old but there was something about the “just when I thought things can’t get any weirder” aspect of things that piqued my curiosity as to what gem would come out of her mouth next. I hit my limit and one night, she went over the line.
Mila,
“Challenging” is one way to describe it. The therapist said that for a smart guy, I was a really slow learner. She asked why I hung in as long as I did.
I told her that LO was my first adult relationship and I didn’t have the best relationship template to guide me. I was also trained to believe that there was little that I couldn’t fix and what I couldn’t fix I could work around.
After LO #2, I didn’t know what a good relationship was but I had a real good idea what a good relationship wasn’t.
Oh, and if you liked the PLR story, you’d love the Tarot card story.
LE,
So … are you over this woman? You write about her a lot. Whole conversations that you had. I don’t know if I could do that with anyone from my past. Maybe little snippets of dialogue.
I had two middle-aged guy friend co-workers, well into their 50s, who talked about “the one who got away” from decades earlier. I don’t think they’d processed the loss yet.
I’m not trying to sound unempathetic, but … I don’t get it. It was so long ago. It kinds of scares me. They’re both married. If I meet someone, how do I subtly ploy the depths of his psyche to see if someone else is lodged there? 🙂
Marcia,
This will pull another string.
Am I over LO #2?
In the sense that I understand why the relationship failed, that I have no desire to re-engage her, then, yes, I’m over LO #2.
Why do I keep going over and over things and remember them like they happened yesterday?
PTSD, albeit mild.
After reading my history of the relationship with LO #2, my friend, the LCSW, said that I have PTSD. I told her that the breakup was as low key as it gets.
My friend replied that trauma wasn’t always violent or catastrophic. She said that I saw the relationship dying a slow death and nothing I said or did could change it. It was like watching someone die from a terminal illness vice losing someone in an auto accident.
To top it off, I didn’t mourned the relationship before rolling into the next one. You and I have talked about that before.
Also, one of the possible long term effects of tangling with a borderline is wondering if they ever really loved you.
The literature says that the answer may well be that a borderline may think that they love you but their definition of love can be severely distorted.
My friend also said that I may have gotten the best from LO #2 that she was capable of giving.
It’s also taken a long time to dismantle that for a long time, this was normal. Everybody had relationships like this.
LE,
go on then, give us the Tarot card story!:)
LE,
“Everybody had relationships like this.”
I hope not.
“PTSD, albeit mild.”
Still? After all this time and all your therapy?
“After reading my history of the relationship with LO #2, my friend, the LCSW, said that I have PTSD. I told her that the breakup was as low key as it gets.”
Reading? Had you given her notes? 🙂
You didn’t answer my main question. Is there a survey questionnaire I can give? 🙂 I’m joking but the issue scares me.
From what he told me years ago, I was the “one who got away” for one of my exes—even though he’s the one who broke it off. He got married then divorced then engaged then single again last I heard. Back when he told me this, though, I was married and, well, it had taken me years to deal with his emotional abuse, so I tried to make it clear nothing would happen between us, to try to get him to move on. I have no idea if he still feels this way. But for me, I already had relationships with the exes and saw how they turned out. I’m not really looking back longingly at any of them.
Ex LO’s who were never SO’s, on the other hand, are untapped potential. 😉
Mila,
Ok…two stories.
LO #2’s grandmother was into astrology and actually had a family astrologer. She also watched TV church on Sunday. She was a delightful woman and probable the nicest person in the family. I was raised by my grandmother. LO #2’s grandmother and I got along really well.
They paid to have my birth chart done. I winged the info. LO #2 said the astrologer wanted me to go back and check my time of birth. I was off by a few hours when I guessed.
The chart came back. I am an Aquarius Sun, Sagittarius Rising, Cancer Moon, Pieces in Venus. I forget what else. LO #2 went to her parents down the street for a few minutes to talk to her parents. Grandma said that I had 7 planets in positive aspects and the rest were neutral. I asked about LO #2. Grandma just rolled her eyes and shook her head.
5 years later:
When LO #2 told me about the PLR, she also said that she had a Tarot Card reading done on us. I used to read Tarot Cards in college. The girls loved it at parties. I asked what the gypsy said. LO #2 told me that the gypsy “had never seen such chaos in a reading and didn’t know how we’d even been friends let alone lovers for as long as we were.” I thought that was a fairly accurate assessment. I asked what the gypsy’s prognosis was:
“Maybe if we spent 20 years alone on a desert island, we could make it work.”
The EAP counselor said that was convenient for LO #2. Fate had absolved her of responsibility for the way things turned out. The EAP counselor said I should be grateful that the gypsy had predicted a long and happy life for us.
OT: If the gypsy had made the prediction and it didn’t work out, could you sue the gypsy under the “But, for” doctrine? But for the gypsy’s prediction of happiness, we wouldn’t have tried to make it work. Hence, the gypsy would be liable for legal fees, cost of therapy, and other related expenses.
Marcia,
I thought I answered your question in the first paragraph of my response.
As for the PTSD, therapy was beneficial in understanding and validating the experience which eliminated a lot of rumination and putting to rest the question of whether there was anything I missed
anything I could have done to alter the outcome. It really didn’t do anything for the memories. Posting on LwL helps me look back and see the absurdity of the experience. The more time that passes, the more absurd it seems.
Weird things happen in my life. The Small Business Administration hooked me up with a “mentor” that bilked me out of $50K and a bunch of others for I don’t know how much. I think he bilked LO #2’s parents. He got away with that one. However, when he bilked $3M from fellow church parishioners years later, he went to jail. The guy introduced me to LO #2! All true.
I wrote a history of the relationship with LO #2 that went almost 13 pages single-spaced. Only 3 people have ever read it, my friend the LCSW, the first therapist I worked with, and the EAP counselor I worked with during the LE with LO #4. I have long since deleted the file since I don’t want to risk my wife and kids ever finding it.
When I started the journey to self-enlightenment, I sent it my my friend vie email. She knew LO #2 when we were dating. Her response, “We need to talk.” I set up a time, took the dog for a long walk, and I called her. The first thing out of her mouth was, “Have you tried to contact her? (No)” The second, “Do you know where she is? (Yes).”
She said, “I never thought that relationship was good for you but I had no idea that you were involved with something like this.” I asked something like what. My friend said that what I’d described, in some places in near clinical detail, was a trauma survivor showing symptoms of PTSD and NPD. My friend said that LO #2 was likely abused or molested as a child, and from the way I described her family, her mother knew about it. She said the relationship was abusive. I expressed surprise and said that I knew I could be difficult but I never realized that I was abusive. My friend came back with, “I wasn’t talking about you.”
She ended the call with, “You were lucky that woman didn’t marry you. Your life could have been so much worse.
We had several long conversations but eventually said that I needed more help than she could provide in 10 minutes snippets.
I don’t know that I’ll ever be able to eliminate the memories.
See the absurdity?
Kurt Vonnegut said, “Life is funny sometimes. And sometimes it isn’t.” – Cat’s Cradle
“The EAP counselor said I should be grateful that the gypsy hadn’t predicted a long and happy life for us.”
Serial,
I’m the same way with my exes. They’re in the past. I’m not longing for them or trying to process what happened.
In terms of my past LOs… if they didn’t grab the chance when it was right in front of them (or didn’t take as much of the chance as I’d hoped 🙂 ), it’s highly unlikely they would now. No potential there.
LE,
„ Grandma just rolled her eyes and shook her head.“
„ I asked what the gypsy’s prognosis was:
“Maybe if we spent 20 years alone on a desert island, we could make it work.”
You know what, I think you met two wise women there who just tried to warn you off that woman.
Lucky escape, I‘d say, and not to insult your LO2 who surely had been a victim herself.
LE,
The question was how to screen for people who aren’t over their exes.
Are you sure this site is helping you? Or is it a place to go over and over what happened?
Marcia,
„ Are you sure this site is helping you? Or is it a place to go over and over what happened?“
Maybe it simply helps to go over and over it again?
Having been accused to heat some buns over a steamer or whatever, I think if it helps to turn over the same stones again and again until you finally decide that it’s enough and you found your peace, then why not?
Oh gosh, I‘m moderating again. Someone stop me.
Marcia, let’s talk about dark chocolate again. Do you find it has a wake-up effect on you, like you cannot sleep if you ate too much of it? My SO claims that he cannot sleep after dark chocolate.
Mila,
I agree that going over things can be helpful. But there can be a fine line between going over things to get over them/process them and getting mired in going over them to the point where the healing process is thrawted. Sometimes the best thing to do is to say to yourself: OK, I’m done with this. I’ve had enough of this. Even if part of you is still not quite there. It’s the same with limerence. On some level, it’s a choice to get fed up with it and how you feel. I know that sounds irritating, but there’s some truth to it.
No, dark chocolate doesn’t keep me up. Or caffeine in general. I’ve switched to 70 percent. I used to eat 85. I’ve gotten wimpy. 😀
Marcia,
„ On some level, it’s a choice to get fed up with it and how you feel. I know that sounds irritating, but there’s some truth to it.“
Absolutely, absolutely. Me myself, I snatch this feeling of being fed up at the moment to use it against sliding back, and am quite successful. I just wouldn’t be able or dare to tell at which point another person is, if they need another round in the snail shell or if they‘ve reached the breaking point.
Also I haven’t been following posts, so I have no idea what LE posted earlier, I got the impression that he mentioned his LO2 1. to give an example of something 2. to entertain (and was successful in my case).
I do eat 85%, but there’s a very very good 50% dark chocolate in organic quality that’s simply the best, so I prefer that over any other..
Mila,
I’ve been on here off and on for … I’m going to say 4 years. So …longer than you (and all you upstart newbies in the new crowd). 😀
I can’t dictate when someone has hit the “over processed” mark but I can see patterns emerging in the posts.
Is the 50 percent dark chocolate with no dairy?
Mila,
In any culture, “to heat some old buns over a steamer” is not a crime, why do you use the word “accuse/accusation” to describe such a psychological behavior?
Opinion words such “selfish”, “cruel”, “heartless”, “cynical” are simply negative adjectives (maybe true of mistaken), not swearing or cursing words, why charging them as “insulting” or “stone throwing”? just because they are not aligning with your agreeable opinions? If an ordinary person with a Individual mind can never use these words to express disagreeable opinions on some concepts, points of view, ideas (Not speakers), who are supposed to use them without being negatively judged?
And if one wants to be really honest to his or her good friends, MFF, or SO, could s/he ever (in)directly express his or her truthful opinions? Or are they supposed to flatter or compliment or echo whatever the other side thinks and says all the time??
By the way, instead of pushing the old buns to the back corner, I choose to (re)heat them up in the front burner until they could be burned up/dull — losing their negative impacts, and never semi-consciously bother/interfere my mind on the back burner in the future.
Therefore, I understand what LE is doing here — also what I’m doing here; it aligns with Buddhistic practice — just stare at one’s fear/enemy/traumas …. It’s therapeutic. Eventually their impacts will back up and fade away. I know others’ words and cases in this ghost dimension would definitely trigger some of my unresolved psychological or romantic pains; but I’m not running away (like some ghosts have done). I want to the wounds to get provoked in the front burner, so they can be treated and healed eventually by both conscious mind and the Unconscious.
Marcia,
The material hasn’t changed. The audience has. How many posters have cycled through LwL over time?
C’mon, some of these stories are pretty funny.
I’ve lost track of it all.
– Limerent Emeritus Gold
– The Essential Limerent Emeritus
– The Best of Limerent Emeritus
– The Stories Remain The Same – The Evolution of Limerent Emeritus
LE,
I thought some of them were funny the first time I read them. 😀
I’m just the crabby old broad wife who’s heard all your stories. You need a new, young admiring girlfriend every so often so you have a new ear. 😀
Marcia,
Try to keep up the facade a little longer.
I haven’t sent the check yet.
LE,
You are the best storyteller in the world, LE! 😀
Be sure to make the check out to Mean Old Broad Society.
It will go into out pantsuit fund. 😀
Hi Marcia,
no, it has dairy in it. Are you allergic?
Snow,
„accused“ was a heavy word too, so I apologize for that, just had a lack of another word.
Mila,
I appreciate it, although there is no need. Sorry for your feeling of being “accused”….
We are a bunch of prickly and highly sensitive GFs here, aren’t we⁉️
🫂
Mila,
“no, it has dairy in it. Are you allergic?”
No, more like sensitive. It makes me break out and it stuffs up my nose.
@Vicarious Limerent
I just read your post, and wanted to tell you you are not alone. I’ve had the exact same trajectory. Right down to the 18 year relationship, number of LE’s and current, LO#3 being an order of magnitude greater…to the point the other LE’s pale in comparison.
It is so hard. I am sorry for all you are going through.
I have come to the conclusion that yes, these limerences are a symptom of something deeply unresolved, unfulfilled, in my life – not just in my life, but within my self. That distinction is important, to me.
It is less about what I have or have not achieved, and more about how I want to feel. It is less about whether I am worthy, and more about the fact I have never allowed myself to truly stand on my own, without anyone.
My current LO is very independent, has very strong boundaries. In a way, I wish I were like him. He is much younger. I also envy him that. He is free. He has his whole life ahead of him, to live as he chooses, and he seems smart enough not to make the mistakes I made. I’m coming to see, it is not so much about him, if I really (reallllly) parse it. It’s about what I wish I was.
Still, I fall into just …wanting him… even though my logical mind is somewhat aware it’s not all about him. He’s becoming like a place I go, when I can’t take my own self.
One thing I have found helpful, (and I can’t say I’m anywhere near out of this, but I too have a significant other who is difficult to handle and demanding in ways I struggle with…)…but…one thing I’ve found helpful is reading a book about assertiveness.
I am reading a book called The Assertiveness Workbook. It’s making me realize I do not advocate for my own needs in a way that is effective.
I don’t know you, but from what you are saying, we have similar journeys. I would encourage you to read about becoming more assertive. (Not aggressive – assertive.) and to learn what that means.
I am nowhere near out of my LE for #3. But, I am learning about myself, and improving my ability to stay calm and be a presence in matters that concern me, and that feels like something.
-CSC
I
Thanks @CSC. I definitely need to find a way to get through to my wife that our marriage is over. Maybe assertiveness training could help because she is absolutely delusional.
My LOs are an escape, and it sounds like you are experiencing something similar. It’s a triple whammy for me because my marriage and family situation are really bad (with my daughter, brother and father as well), along with my job, which is terrible now.
What makes things harder right now are that “so close yet so far away” feeling and the fact that my LO seems so damn perfect. It’s like she was sent from heaven to me and she was perfectly made just for me. She is EXACTLY what I would be looking for in a woman. I just know it: gorgeous with lovely long blonde hair, tall, curvaceous and with a style and dress sense I’m totally into. She is sexy but modest. She is a little older than me but she looks quite a bit younger. She is fun-loving but serious, successful but down to earth. She is smart and classy (everyone uses the adjective “classy” to describe her). She has a good job and her own house. She is educated and well-spoken. I love how she is a rocker chick, albeit a posh rocker chick. There is a lot of overlap in our musical tastes. She has morals. She seems to like me, and I think it’s fair to say we get along very well and gravitate towards one another. She showed some signs she was at least intrigued by me in the past. I have serious fantasies about marrying her. It isn’t just the limerence talking; I know for a fact I would love to explore a serious relationship with her. I also fantasize about getting really fit and slim, ending my marriage and asking her out. I know that is unlikely to ever happen, but I still retain a faint hope I could be with her some day. I think I could fall in love with her so easily. Sigh, this is so difficult!
VL,
I read your post from the other day and it does sound like your Wife is definitely going though something. In some ways I was seeing myself in some of how you were describing her, because I was easily in a place where I simply didn’t care about my marriage at surface level. Deep down though, our relationship was always unique and one of a kind. Which kept me from wanting to actually separate. I never really wanted divorce to happen but my Wife reached her breaking point..
It sounds like you could be close to reaching yours. Until she doesn’t have you anymore, she may not realize what a good thing she has in you, that you’ve stuck around as long as you have. You don’t deserve to keep living like this but I do wish you luck, whatever route you take.
As for your LO, she sounds as divine and lovely as my LO. Blonde and curvaceous. An impeccable style in dress and looking always classy in so many ways. My LO is short though, but it suits me just fine because she’s simply perfect in every way possible. Not only that, but she’s a Latina and bilingual. So it was always extra sexy when I heard her speaking in Spanish. I get excited just thinking about it.. I could go on about her forever.
You though know your LO and have good vibes when you’re together. It’s enough to easily give you the dopamine you need right now. Our LOs are definitely about escape and while it’s great you want to look better and get in shape, you never know, but LO just might like bigger, teddy bear-like guys. You might just be her type. If your marriage doesn’t work out though, don’t give up hope. Maybe what you desire could happen and LO could be a good friend to you throughout. From that friendship, who knows what might come about. Perhaps the love you really desire..
Thanks @MJ. My wife would say it’s me who doesn’t value our marriage. After all, I’m the one who keeps on saying I want divorce and separation. But she is the one who dominated and controlled me all those years. She killed the spark for me. By now, all I want from her is to allow us to go our separate ways.
My LO is just a fantasy and I know it. I would still love to be with her, but something that was said online today, which I won’t go into, made me start to realize she doesn’t really care about me. I’m starting to think she’d rather not see me. I think she may be trying to avoid me, yet she does seem to talk away to me whenever I do see her. The mixed signals are weird, but almost every time I’ve seen her, I’ve been sitting or standing next to a mutual friend of ours. This lady is also beautiful but her SO is also part of our crowd. She isn’t an LO, but I do have to start to wonder about how much we seem to be gravitating towards one another. Again, I’m not going to cheat on my wife or step on this lady’s SO’s toes (I consider him to be a friend too but we’re not quite as close as I am to my LO’s female friend), but it has got me thinking. I see this lady much more often than my LO, and frankly she is a much better friend to me than LO #3. Again, I’m not trying for anything inappropriate, but there is this strong platonic friendship building between us.
Yeah, VL. I understand that. I wish my LO and I could have a relationship, too. If I’m being honest, I wish that relationship would involve spending every waking moment around him, living on a desert island, for the rest of time.
Obviously, that’s a fantasy. I’m not sure I’d want an actual relationship with him, and I’ve really thought about it. The reason why is that I would not want him to have that kind of control. And I don’t want the anxiety. I mean, I have enough now, and we are nowhere near involved (it’s not even an option! I’m talking like it is… 🙂
I don’t want to tell you what you should do. I can only speak from my perspective and experience. So, here I go.
To my mind, what I need to do is clear this limerence, then, I need to take the time I need to consider if I really should be in my LTR. But, I cannot, and should not, do both at the same time. I need to clear the limerence first.
I would love to know your thoughts about the possiblity of first clearing up your limerence (if you think that is workable?) and then, maybe, dealing with your marriage.
From what you say, your marriage really is not happy for you. No shade on your wife, but if it’s not happy, that is what it is, and you might have to just…move on. Still, in MY brain, limerence creates a LOT of crossed wires, a mental, category 5 storm that prevents me from thinking of other things in a straightforward way.
Have you ever been alone? I mean, really alone, without any wife, girlfriend, or crush?
I haven’t. I think maybe that’s the problem. I think if I can clear my limerence here, and possibly extract myself from my LTR, that the real cure will be to go “no contact” with ANYONE, stand on my own, and feel what that is like.
Then, I can trust myself, and know I can survive. And, survive heartache. And not *need* someone. Instead, I need to want someone, but not have the need of them eclipse my life.
I sound very capable right now. Full disclosure I only come on here when I’m feeling very low and kind of lost. :))
Would love your thoughts…does anything I’m saying resonate with your experience?
CSC
@CSC, I believe you are referring to the phenomenon Dr. L refers to as “rewriting history.” This is the tendency to make our relationships with our SOs out to be worse than they really are due to the limerence. No doubt, I have done this at least a little bit, but the spark had been gone from our marriage for quite some time before I first became limerent for LO #1 nearly five years ago.
During that time, I’ve spent all or most of my time being limerent for someone. I’ve only really ended my limerence for any one LO through transference to someone else. I agree with your suggestion that it’s best not to make life-altering decisions while in a state of limerence, but for me it seems like I’m just going to end up Limerent for someone else. I think this will keep on happening to me until I can get out of my marriage. Waiting to be in a non-Limerent state might take many years.
Having said all that, there are some encouraging signs that I may be turning the corner with LO #3. I am starting to be a little hurt and angry towards her. I’m really starting to realize she doesn’t care about me and maybe doesn’t even like me. She usually just lurks on our group chat and doesn’t say much, but she recently liked a comment from someone shooting down some plans a few of us made to go to an event I know would be right up her street. It kind of surprised me, but it was something I had spearheaded. I thought for sure this was something she would want to attend, but apparently not. Somehow, that and her not accepting my Facebook friend request made me realize she probably doesn’t like me. She also doesn’t come out much with us and never shares her other plans with our group (our core group shares everything). As my friend said, I should focus more on our core group of friends (including LO #2) and avoid worrying so much about the rest of them, who are more or less just acquaintances. All of this is helping in my recovery. I don’t know whether I can end my limerence without transference but we’ll see.
You asked whether I had ever been on my own. Until I met my wife over 20 years ago, I spent the vast majority of my adult life outside a relationship. I was quite used to being single, so I don’t have any worries there. In many ways, I would love to be free and single again, and I wish I could get my freedom back. However, there is that tendency to want to pair bond.
“Limerence is most often a sign that something is wrong in life when it catches you out, disrupts your plans, and makes you reassess everything you believed. It’s most often embraced when it’s a tantalising alternative to an unhappy status quo.”
This statement pretty much says what my LE was about. Catching me off guard and triggering so much within. Which eventually disrupted so many plans. Thinking back to the roller coaster of emotions and so much sadness as a result. Can’t say I really want to visit it again someday.
My hats off to anyone going from one LO to another. I don’t think I could do it. I can only think of one other time in life where I had a really strong crush on a girl when I was 21 (She was 19) and she eventually broke my heart. That may have been a semi-limerent moment then. I did obsess over her and I remember being pretty torn up over her when she went back to school. But even with that, I was nowhere near at the sadness/depressed level I was over LO. I’m sure it’s because of all the other life events that for myself are really still in the gutter at the moment.
It also didn’t help LO was more the Dodgy type. Only I would be dumb enough to think that I could somehow fix her. In the beginning I was probably thinking it was mutual limerence. But in coming down out of the clouds, I see how way off-kilter my mindset actually was.
This might be a very unpopular line of thinking. I think there needs to be a new name for the limerence, ie person addiction, that most people struggle with on here.
I believe that what I’ll call destructive limerence is a sign that something is wrong or missing in our lives. We put that LO on a pedestal and their reciprocation, approval, attention etc become a main focus of life. Most of the time it’s one sided and created in one’s mind. The cognitive dissonance it brings is mind boggling.
People will risk marriages, jobs, and families for their LO. They’ll do things like secretly text, meet, buy gifts, all while carrying on their relationship with their SO like it’s no big deal. It causes guilt and shame and is a destructive cycle. If any of my LOs and I could have had a relationship I don’t see how it could have been healthy because of how much I idealized them.
So what could be missing? Thats the hard part but if it’s not addressed it will keep happening. I can only speak for myself but for me it was several things. One, unrealistic expectations of what a relationship/marriage should be. Two, lack of hobbies, purpose outside of relationships. Basically not really knowing myself. Three, past hurts that I tried to soothe with addiction and finally failing to make God and my faith my main focus.
I think it would be great a series of blog posts to start exploring the things that might be missing and how to address those things. Also please remember that one’s judgment is impaired when in an LE. Please try not to make life altering decisions while in its grip. Don’t use it as an excuse to continue crappy behavior toward a SO. You may have unknowingly fell into it but you can make choices to get yourself out of this.
That’s a great idea for a blog post @ Anonymous.
I’m delving into that right now.
It’s life changing.
It all starts with the choice to unravel what’s going on in YOU.
Anna,
I consider a self-discovery and life changing process during this LE as my biggest gain in my life, despite all the mental and physical pains I have endured ignorantly or knowingly….
It’s truly a huge “no pain, no gain” life-or-death experience! Over all, I appreciate it….
Due to our similar upbringing (Mom was the Narc “devil” on my side), I think you and I have been stumbling on a similar path in this collectively shared LE recovery journey…. I can identify with many issues you’re dealing with. But I do not have enough time to respond all your relevant posts besides following them; they bring up so many good questions and psychological challenges…
There was a lot of infuriating and saddening stuff in our upbringing, which needs to be properly let out and grieved , let’s stay 💪.
Thank you so much for this post. I am a SO of a husband who suffers limerence. He behaved in such away to push me away when going through an episode. I uncovered his crazy behaviour which he tried to blame me for when I showed up and was faithful everyday. I was blindsided. It is crazy how limerence makes people do strange things like they are in the midst of an episode, poor judgement but a whole family unit can be destroyed. I wonder what limerent people would think if roles were reversed and they experienced it they way their SO feel. Heartbreaking.
Ruth
As a husband who did the same exact thing I apologize to you. “You said I’m crazy cause you didn’t think I knew what you’ve done.” I’ve listened to that song a lot. Though I tend to avoid the actual music video as it is heart breaking. And you are absolutely right that it affects the whole family unit. Our youngest son will not forgive me for what I did to his mother. In his eyes what I did was unforgivable.
As to Dr L’s, post I think while other things in my life did factor into falling into limerence I tend to think it was her. Her the woman she was. More so than the other factors. As those factors have been lingering from before I met her and after.
I don’t really have a fear or concern of limerence again. Unless SHE circles back around again. To which she apparently tried some time ago. In 25 years of marriage she isn’t the only woman that caught my eye. But mostly I was just “ok that woman is attractive” and keep on walking. But not with her. There was something about her that I cannot put a finger on. I am fairly certain if all the dominos hadn’t fell the way they did for me to meet her I would never have a need to be here at LwL.
Adam,
LO #2 sent me a FB friend request after nearly 25 years of NC. Given her history of triangulating relationships, I can think of several possible reasons for sending it. It also could have been a mistake.
After LO #2 sent it, I had two very vivid dreams about her. In one of them, my father came back from the dead to warn me off of re-engaging her.
In 25 years of marriage, only one woman has ever gotten inside my head, LO #4. When I told that to the EAP counselor, her response was it was because I had let LO #4 get inside my head. I agreed with the EAP counselor and told her that’s why I came back. I needed to figure out what I found so compelling about LO #4 that I was willing to assume risk that I didn’t have to and hurt my wife who is the best thing that ever happened to me for a woman who offered me absolutely nothing.
It took awhile but I figured it out. In retrospect, not only did it all male sense, somebody who knew what to look for could have possibly predicted it.
It would be interesting to apply AI to limerence. Crank in childhood factors and some other inputs, screen them against DSM criteria for persality disorders and limerence and get an assessment of how your life might turn out or get an assessment of the person you’re dating.
Want to know if you’re dating a Boderline or Narcissist? Let AI help you!
“I needed to figure out what I found so compelling about LO”
L.E.
I have been pondering this since you posted it. Like you too with your LO#4, LO really had nothing to offer me. She certainly didn’t seem interested in a LTR if I decide to up heave my life for her. Her accepting my attention that I gave her diminished greatly when she started dating someone. She never attempted to contact me outside of work. All the arrows pointed to “not interested in me” outside of the context of the job.
The only thing I could come up with is how much she greatly reminded me of another young lady back when I was single that I was quite head over heels for. She, like LO, was highly attractive and gave me nothing but breadcrumbs no matter how far I would go to give her attention, gifts, and my heart.
LO reminded me of her in her looks, her hair, her laugh, her stature, her personality … she was almost a clone of this young lady I met in my 20’s. I didn’t realize it then, but wonder if I did unconsciously when limerent? The only difference with her than LO is we were both the same age back then. And we were both available to each other. But I guess because I ate up the breadcrumbs she did give, she kept on doing it till she got bored of it all. Like the bottle, do I keep going back to women that do that? I guess it’s that damned anxious attachment demon that drags me through the mud.
@limerent emeritus – what do you mean by got inside your head?
@adam – i don’t know if chasing someone who is not interested is anxious attachment. Most people (myself included) of both genders do it in their 20s, generally I think out of a lack of self-esteem, although men seem to struggle more with their pride and maybe hang in there longer than women. Were you limerent for that lady in your 20s?
“Were you limerent for that lady in your 20s?”
I guess it is possible. The biggest difference between my experience with her and LO, is that when I think back to our time together memories of her are overall pleasant despite things not working the way I had hoped then. Where with LO the memories are hard to separate from the pain they bring.
Maybe that’s because there was no barriers with her as there was with LO. So after a few nights of gin and Air Supply I eventually got over her and moved on. I bear her no ill will. But I felt a bit of resentment and betrayal with LO leaving. I just didn’t say anything as that would be very selfish of me.
I think the negative outcome of LO is my baseline for the experience of limerence. And because with her back then my experience was overall nice and I got over her fairly quickly despite still seeing her on regular intervals after she declared her position between the two of us. If I were to declare anything about that young lady then I would say she is my first love.
HJ,
The short answer to your question was I went into an Emotional Affair with LO #4.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/emotional-affairs/
Check out the link in https://livingwithlimerence.com/when-does-limerence-become-an-emotional-affair/#comment-3427
LO #4 hit some very specific triggers that I’d encountered before and I knew how I had responded to them. I told the EAP counselor that if LO #4 had lived 25 miles away from me vice 2500 miles, things could be playing out very differently.
The EAP counselor agreed and said that may have been the biggest break I caught in the whole mess.
@Anonymous
…destructive limerence
That is really interesting.
I am inclined to call this LE I’m in, (which feels destructive) “transformational limerence” instead. I am trying to understand, it will be up to me what will this limerence mean in my life.
It feels awful. But, even so, I am learning so much. It hurts, but I believe I can come through it, and when I do, I will be a better version of myself.
So, destructive, yes. But…clearing a path.
All these great comments confirm that I was right to think this was a profound question. It gets at the real fundamentals of what limerence is and what it means for us all individually.
This post was another attempt to clarify whether limerence is the right word to capture the whole experience (good and bad) or whether it should just be reserved for those times when the addiction spirals out of control:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-definition-of-limerence/
It’s the proverbial elephant in the Limerence room.
I think the dark term “limerence” should be FAIRLY used ONLY to describe Tunnov’s Red Path — when a psychological stress is caused.
Regardless the intensity of infatuation, many adults have experienced the green and black path — a part of living on this earth as human being.
In LwL town, the red path is so emphasized and “bombed” that the green or black path has become nonexistent. Successful limerents probably would not have a need to even locate LwL, unless a new LO appears in the horizon.
Yes!
If my Limerence had of followed the course I wished it had (don’t wish that now) I would not be here.
It was only when it went awry that I started looking for answers.
Well, I think Tennov and Wakin are both correct, it’s just what terminology you want to use as labels.
As Tennov was first, then maybe she rightly owns the term ”limerence” as the pure propensity some of us have to it, and the 3 potential pathways that can follow:
1) reciprocation & ectastic union; 2) outright rejection 3) uncertainty & limbo ( let’s add barriers to that one eh?!)
I have experienced 1) & 3) only, each one just once – very similar to Dr.L’s personal experience actually.
I also feel my unwanted LE concurs with Wakin in that it can turn to “a cross between addiction and OCD”.
He shouldn’t define ‘limerence’ in his own definition (in my humble opinion) but maybe he can claim the feelings of the painful elements of non-reciprocation/ barriers/uncertainty.
“It started as a lovely glimmer which became a life enriching experience of this crazy thing called limerence. But soon after I’m trying to find a way out, as it’s somehow got a complete grip on both my mind and heart -that I can think of, nor care of little else, so it seems I’m now in the dreaded stage of wakinence”
Is someone that gets pleasure from gambling a just-about-affordable amount a gambling addict? Or does that term only apply once they lose more than they can afford and enter the full blown, escalating, loss chasing phase of gambling addiction? I would say yes, if they are unable to stop, they are a gambling addict even if ok and happy about it. To me this parallels with good and bad limerence – they are different phases and/or outcomes of the same phenomena.
Allie,
Are you able to enjoy and manage limerence with an LO on a long term basis ? I’m interested in how you approach/manage this, if you are happy to share.
Maybe you are able to do so without sliding into that aching phase. I wish I could stay suspended in the euphoria yet ‘in full control’ phase.
I had it for several months after the glimmer and it was a great feeling. I was in full control of my mind and life and heart etc.
But certain triggers meant it moved to a new phase that was less in control !
Hi there. Im hoping for some advice. I’ve only recently come to understand that I’m limerent. Im now 50, but have spent my entire adult life feeling trying to work out what is going on and being hurt my relationships. My usual pattern is to destroy the relationship, because of my anxiety, clinginess, and demands for more. I am married, and have broken up the marriage now a number of times, because my wife is my lo. I want to learn to love her truly, if I can. But the anxiety cripples me. I don’t know how to manage it. We have two wonderful children together, so my motivation for managing this is very high. I don’t want to have to spend the rest of my life alone. I have found anti depressants help, but I also hate how numb they make me feel. Does anyone have any tips on how I can calm things down, so that I can have a healthier relationship with her, such that I’m not forcing her away, which of course then triggers me. Many thanks
Welcome Condor Man! Your situation sounds difficult. I want to help you, but I’m not sure how. Can you give examples to help me understand a little better?
Why do you believe that you are limerent for your wife? What symptoms do you see in yourself? What behaviors are pushing her away?
I don’t know if this helps, but my mantra is “Do the right thing no matter how you feel.” I’ll give an example. When I was limerent, I could get a euphoric high from daydreaming about my LO. Those daydreams were very distracting. I was tempted to daydream instead of perform my duties like read to my daughter. I tried to push through the temptation and do the right thing no matter how I felt. So even though I preferred to spend time daydreaming, I read to my daughter. I hope that makes sense.
It’s nice to meet you!
Hi Condor man, like Lovisa says examples will help, but it sounds more like disorganized-attachement issue. You should probably go to therapy to find out what is really going on.
Hello Condor Man and welcome.
You kindly asked for advice. I’m no expert, however, I agree with Heebie Jeebies to research attachment styles to hopefully give you insights to help you understand yourself more.
Be kind to yourself as you are seeking solutions for you and your family.
Is LE a sign that something is wrong? It could be, there are plenty of examples here where limerence is born out of past or current issues. But there are other examples where it just seems to happen.
Where is the line between normal life difficulties and something being “wrong”. We all have difficulties, but we all don’t become limerent. And if we do fall into an LE who is to say it’s because of difficulty A, B, or C.
I don’t know? I didn’t have anything really wrong in my life other than mid-life when I fell into limerence. I think some of us are just more predisposed to romantic ideation and limerence can be born out of that if the right glimmer happens.
Oh I totally relate to that, I can’t identify any specific trigger other than getting to know LO.
Ad you say, there doesn’t seem to be any one template for why someone is in LE or how they experience it, or how they solve it.
“…is limerence always a sign something is wrong in life?”
I’ve been pondering this question for a while now. Helen Fisher defines limerence as romantic love. She says “limerence” and “romantic love” are the same thing. I’ve watched an interview of her chatting about her views. She come across as very casual and cheerful. She didn’t automatically assume there was anything problematic about limerence. She didn’t see “romantic love” as being a negative state. Also, she maintained the excitement of “romantic love” can last beyond four years in partnered couples, but at a much more practical everyday level.
Helen Fisher mentioned in the interview she actually knew Dorothy Tennov. She said Tennov coined a new word to describe romantic love i.e. the neologism “limerence”. Fisher didn’t have a problem with Tennov coining a new word, but didn’t think a new word was strictly necessary. Fisher also commented that there was “a sad component” to Tennov’s description/understanding of limerence.
This begs the question: were these two well-respected researchers, Tennov and Fisher, actually talking about the same experience?
Personally, I think the differences in Tennov and Fisher’s findings can be explained away very easily. I think Fisher performed brain scans on college students in mutual limerence or “fruitful limerence”. The brains of these college students were probably “blissed out” because their feelings were returned and they were presumably able to form secure attachments to their LOs.
Tennov, on the other hand, probably ended up ascribing a sad component to limerence because the people writing in to her had experienced unrequited limerence i.e. fruitless limerence. The brains of these individuals were likely not “blissed out”. Somewhere along the line, the initial positive emotions had presumably soured because no secure attachment to LO had been able to form.
Personally, I find it very helpful to define limerence as “romantic love” or “the feeling of being madly in love with someone” because that can help one see the whole situation more clearly.
I realise I’ve been limerent for only one person in my life – my male classmate from high school. This experience lasted twenty-five years, start to finish. It started around Christmas in my fifteenth year and ended around Christmas in my fortieth year. All men experience a natural drop in testosterone around age 40. I believe the natural drop in testosterone I had at 40 was instrumental in freeing me from this one case of limerence. I think really strong feelings of lust (due to steady or increasing testosterone levels) was keeping the emotional attachment alive – even if the emotional attachment was only imaginary or mostly imaginary.
I would say Lucy Bain’s description of the four stages of limerence line up perfectly with my own lived experience. There was indeed a glimmer phase, a honeymoon phase, an addictive phase replete with highs and lows, and a dependency phase. I was always vaguely aware, from the late honeymoon phase onwards, that my LO was someone I could never realistically date/form a pair-bond with. I think the transition from addiction to dependency was swift.
I believe my LO was/is heterolimerent. When I knew him in person, he was making himself as desirable as possible, but he just wasn’t doing it in order to attract me or keep my interest. He had his own little agenda going on (to attract a certain girl – the girl he eventually married, the girl he “sent his DNA into the future” with). He didn’t bother to explain his actions to me because he was probably preoccupied with his own infatuation and didn’t have spare mental space to think about life from my perspective. As much as he may have enjoyed validation from me, I simply “wasn’t on his radar romantically”. Nor was I supposed to be.
Limerence to me felt like a fog that descended on a mountaintop. Once the fog descended, I was truly lost – going round and round in circles, and travelling precisely nowhere. I had to wait for the fog to lift – a quarter-century later – before I could really gain perspective on the situation. I used to believe sexuality is about body parts and acts. Now I believe sexuality is about emotion between two people. Romantic love = sex + emotion. Unconscious emotion creates cathexis.
I don’t regret limerence in some ways and I do regret limerence in some ways. In some ways, I’m happy I experienced limerence because (a) I feel I’m able to identify “romantic love” correctly should I ever feel that state of mind coming on again and (b) while ruminating, I did go over some stuff from my childhood that really did require going over so I could integrate said stuff into my mature adult identity.
I regret limerence for two reasons. (1) During limerence, I did push away platonic friends because I didn’t find platonic friendship particularly enjoyable or exciting compared to infatuation. (2) I spent my 20s being moodier than I needed to be. It’s only when I hit 30 that I decided to start examining the world outside my own head. The last ten years of my limerence were significantly easier than the first fifteen. Year Eight of limerence was the worst by far, also a major turning point. (The year when my previously solid world dissolved into liquid, as it were).
My advice to limerents:
(1) Don’t demand a non-limerent partner or friend act like a limerent. Non-limerents seldom understand limerence as they haven’t lived through it.
(2) Accept that limerence and romantic love are very often the same thing, and use that equivalency to evaluate the appropriateness of relationship to LO. (I.e. your LO is NOT your platonic friend. Your LO is someone you DESIRE strongly). If you don’t strongly desire your LO, you’re not actually in limerence with him/her.
(3) If you’re heterolimerent, don’t chase gay people. If you’re homolimerent, don’t chase straight people. Consider the vastly superior strategy of chasing someone who might actually want to be chased. 🙂
(4) Even if your conscious mind doesn’t want a relationship with LO, your unconscious mind DOES want a relationship with LO. If your conscious mind and your unconscious mind are in disagreement, you’re going to come across as very conflicted and self-contradictory to others. (This was/is me for a long time).
(5) If your LO is in a relationship, particularly a relationship where THEY are limerent for their current partner, back the heck off and let them enjoy their allocation of bliss with somebody that isn’t you. Never come between a man and his LO, especially if his LO also happens to be his serious girlfriend/wife.
(6) Forgive your LO if they led you on, or whatever. Life isn’t fair. Bad stuff happens. Everyone, at some point in their lives, experiences loss or disappointment or “not winning”. Success is a privilege and not a right.
(7) Limerence, while it’s happening, is the most powerful emotional experience you will ever have. It’s very likely that many aspects of limerence will be harrowing – should your limerence prove to be the unrequited or fruitless kind. Casualties of fruitless limerence will feel haunted by limerence even after it’s over. Feeling haunted is normal. All the most powerful emotions human beings have get activated most strongly at the start and at the end of important relationships. If necessary, take time out to mourn the extinguishing of a beautiful dream.
Having read a post by Sammy on the social media blog and some other exchanges, I thought of a slightly different angle on this question.
– Is there something wrong that you are trying to solve with limerence?
For some people, limerence comes out of the blue, but for many it seems to be a manifestation of a crisis. Even for those where it comes out of the blue, they may have something subconscious going on they can’t quite grasp yet.
There have been a number of posts suggesting many people experiencing limerence are projecting an internal struggle onto the LO. Tkaing this idea of limerence being an act with agency, perhaps people are also picking the LO because in some sense they have decided to resolve that underlying issue?
For me, I can certainly identify unresolved issues that it was time to resolve. LO2 was mid 20s and I think about sorting out my self esteem and lack of pride in my apeparance, ‘becoming a man’, while LO3 was a substitute for grieving.
I think the other archetypes I have picked up here are probably identity crises, the physical fading of middle age and a need for romance in a stale or failed relationship, resolving rescue fantasies and others.
@Heebie Jeebies
“Is there something wrong that you are trying to solve with limerence?”
Is the “you” in this question a universal “you” or is it addressed to me specifically? I’m happy to answer the question either way because, you know, I just love to gab… 🤣
I don’t think limerence was a sign there was anything wrong in my life. My life was going great – I was achieving all the academic goals I wished to achieve. Then limerence happened and upset everything. Also, I don’t think I was trying to solve anything with limerence. I just got addicted to dopamine and I mean who wouldn’t? Dopamine is a very pleasurable chemical I’ll have you know. (Okay. Okay. Maybe I’m being a tiny bit sarcastic). 🙂
I view limerence as standard romantic love. Humans have evolved to pair-bond so they can reproduce. My limerence was complicated by the fact I fell in love with a male and not a female, so reproduction was out of the question. Also, very soon after I fell for him, he himself became limerent for a member of the opposite sex. Basically, I lost any chance of having him almost as soon as I got him, so there was a feeling he was unfairly snatched away. (We were both single when we met).
What I think happens in limerence is that “desire”, however people may wish to define “desire”, just takes over once it’s given a foothold. Limerence has been described as “life lived around an anxious ecstatic desire” and that is precisely what it is in my opinion. Limerence altered my brain, my body, and my sexuality. It felt like a force outside of myself that possessed me for twenty-five years. I now realise a lot of emotions I’ve had over the years are just parts of the same old limerence episode rearing its ugly head every now and again. Limerence to me was a preordained trajectory – completely out of my conscious control – which I travelled faithfully like a comet from The Glimmer to Final Deterioration.
In my experience, limerence really does go away completely on its own if enough time passes and one accepts emotionally that reciprocation isn’t going to happen. Or, at least, limerence for a particular person can dwindle down to nothing.
Do you want to know what feels really eerie to me? Not being limerent anymore! I haven’t lost my soul or anything. I’m quite happy, and more myself than ever. But this powerful motivational drive – I don’t have it anymore. My desire for LO has vanished without a trace, and I’ve accepted there was something absurd in my subconscious wish to be desired by him. (Although I think a subconscious wish to be desired by LO is actually a perfectly normal part of limerence for everyone).
I think, in my mind, in emotional terms, my image of my LO merged with my image of my mother. This is a bit weird since LO was male. However, apparently, in heterosexual men, the same thing happens – wife and mother become merged on an unconscious imaginative level. The reason for this is wife and mother both rule the same emotional space in the man’s psyche. A man passes from his mother’s emotional control to his wife’s emotional control, apart from a brief period of freedom in adolescence, and that’s just the natural order of things.
I could tell you all sort of fancy stories about how I was looking for a father, or searching for ideal masculinity, or coming to terms with my relationship with my mother. But I don’t think any of those stories, as interesting as they are, would be strictly true. The truth is my LO innocently appeared on the scene one day and mysteriously created this desire in me: a desire that altered everything about me on a chemical level. Then, one day, just as mysteriously, the desire evaporated.
I think all the symptoms of limerence e.g. bumped-up libido, etc – that was just my body wanting to connect with him and be close to him, just as evolution intended. The problem is I’m not a heterosexual woman. I didn’t love my LO as a gay man loves a flirtatious straight/bisexual man. I loved my LO (emotionally) as a heterosexual woman would love a heterosexual man – very nurturing, very doting, very forgiving of his faults. There was almost a maternal element to my love for LO. However, I’ve got the body of a man. So a bit of a mismatch going on…
My LO was charismatic. He had the physical dimensions of a man, but there was a feminine beauty to his facial features that was very captivating. I found it very hard not to look at him. Yes, I enjoyed looking at him. What can I say? 😜
If I was trying to recreate a childhood relationship, I think it would be the mother-son dyad. However, weirdly, I wanted to play good-enough mother to LO’s perennially naughty little boy. And here’s the rub – I didn’t want LO to be a good little boy. I want LO to be a naughty little boy with a love of freedom and adventure. I want him to run wild and be as disappointing and as disobedient as humanly possible. A mother’s redemptive love is wasted on a well-behaved son.
Did I want to give my LO some idealised childhood I never had? A childhood in which he’d be watched over by a good-enough, all-forgiving, but totally non-intrusive mother? Perhaps, in loving LO, I was really just diverting self-love away from myself and onto him? I’ve since learned to feel for myself what I felt for LO. I.e. I’ve learned to feel the same feelings of love for myself that I lavished on LO.
Perhaps I’m the little boy who wanted to be watched over by a good-enough, all-forgiving mother? (My actual mother was very angry, aggressive, and judgemental. But she honestly had no idea of how she came across to others. Zero self-awareness. Nada. Zip).
Perhaps I felt self-love was an emotion/state of mind forbidden to me and I needed to give that love to somebody else? So limerence might have been a proxy exercise in self-love?
I’ll tell you another thing – the dependency stage of limerence is no joke. It absolutely stinks. People aren’t lying or exaggerating when they say they’re having a rotten time. I literally couldn’t do anything except crave LO all day, every day. And I couldn’t sleep at night. And I was barely able to hold down food.
Yes, I agree with you – if people seem unnaturally protective of their LOs/LEs, and defensive about the tiniest whiff of negative feedback, maybe such people are trying to resolve something terribly important deep within themselves? And if one lets go of the limerence too soon, then one will never resolve whatever it is that needs to be resolved? So dogmatism in a way is actually a beneficial form of self-preservation? Sooner or later, limerence may well yield up all the secrets of one’s soul. 🙂
Snow, LaR,
all good, all good. I do understand everything. Let’s just get on with it;)sorry for that.
No need to apologise from my side. We are all right in our own ways (or ‘might be’ to caveat it right!) – all lifelong students or we wouldn’t be here.
Peace be with your Mondays – hope they pass without a 😏 look in sight!!
LaR,
I might be putting you into the Stoic oven again now for the following possibility I actually meant to say in my previous posts—
You said you’ve worked in therapy with validation seeking issues. However, If seeking some missing validation from SO partially led you to your LE, could it also be that seeking LE validation from MFF, you don’t have it yet, has led the same goal in LwL, semi-consciously?
Yet all our GFs’ collective validation together cannot amount to one simple LE validation from MFF— “I also have feelings for you…”
Am I wrong again? 😜
Snow,
I simply don’t know!
Of course, it’s frustrating that I can’t just ask MFF if that’s true or not and obtain that ‘ultimate’ validation.
On the ‘lack’ side, that ‘ultimate’ thing aside, I haven’t really used the word ‘validation’ to explain what I lacked, apart from referring to much more historically at the time I had therapy. This is something you’ve mainly inferred – not saying it is wrong, but not as big a factor in my view of my situation as it perhaps is in yours.
This is probably too much psycho-babble for you, but I score exceptionally high in trait Agreeableness on the “Big 5” personality tests. One of my biggest things is wanting harmony, cordiality and people to ‘get on well’ (in life, not just in ghost life – I know why). So efforts you see me make on LwL are, in my view, as much about that than about validation. It is something my friends appreciate in me.
I think where I have most sought validation on LwL is on my *strategy* for managing the LE. This is probably because it goes against the grain and is ‘unusual’, and involves walking a tightrope.
I totally accept that not everyone here would believe in that strategy or want to validate it. I won’t shy away from it being suggested I might have things wrong. I have had posters do that to me and engaged in sustained and spirited back and forths with them. The need for honest discourse and plurality of viewpoints beats the need for validation in my world. What you said recently is no exception.
Everyone like positive validation, me not exception! But seeding validation or quick self-defense for whatever reasons brings one anxiety and insecurity, recognized or subconscious. My concern is purely for one’s own expression of authenticity and mental peace, I feel sorry if they do suffer such kind of anxiety; otherwise, all joys to their harmony/peace making!
I used to be harmony seeker or people pleaser but found it’s just impossible to be “agreeable” with everyone even some of the time — not only problems did not get solved but it oppressed/suppressed/twisted my own authenticity. In COO, it’s also “dangerous” to speak one’s true mind.
If no anxiety on this front bothers you, then be joy and peace with you! 🕊️
Snow,
I do know what you mean, but nothing I ever say or do on those fronts (here or elsewhere) feels inauthentic to me. If it feels inauthentic, I simply don’t say it.
Last week it needed the back and forth between us for me to be able to unpick a bit, what you were saying and what motivated it. Only then could I alter from my initial defence to a more balanced position. The biggest problem was not being able to devote proper time to have the proper dialogue with you it deserved. Work was full on, and I can’t live without a good sleep or a rest late at night from thinking about difficult stuff like my LE.
Understand!
Please focus all your energy and time on important stuff first in your reality dimension! 👌
I can be an🦉 and early 🐦🔥 simultaneous…. ☺️
Yes, Mother Dear!
Be prepared that I’ll be always a “trouble-maker” here…. 😜
Snow,
You’re not so much a trouble maker as you are a reflection of how the world works.
In North America, electrical distribution systems operate at 60Hz. In much of the rest of the world, electrical distribution systems operate at 50Hz.
Close but definitely different.
LE,
That’s the average difference the cultures have made, both have their strength and weakness.
On the individual level, electrical distribution — reaction to the world and others, could be of the chart in either direction….
I can relate a lot to your PTSD experiences, although mind comes from primarily from Mom and the red 🔴 culture… I don’t have enough time to talk about them, but reflect on them constantly internally…
Glad to be a 🐦🔥 in this high-voltage charged (60-120 Hz) 👻 land, that has made an Eastern Amazon Warrior’s 🪽 stronger so far… Really appreciate it! 🙏
When I get time, I’ll learn your valuable baseball swinging and striking skills… 🧢
Marcia,
I was reading through the thread and found your question about how to screen for someone who isn’t over their ex.
IMO, there isn’t a one-size fits all answer.
Some things are obvious:
– They keep mementoes of their exes on display.
– They bring them up in conversation.
– They’re still in contact with them and see them as a having a place in their lives.
Some things may not be so obvious:
– Did they roll from one relationship into another?
– Do they get inexplicably moody on certain days? – I get moody around Thanksgiving because my father committed suicide the Saturday after Thanksgiving. I asked LO #2 to marry me on Xmas morning of 1985. It took until I had my first child in 1996 for that memory not to be the first thought I had waking up on Xmas morning. It sucked.
I couldn’t explain to my wife why I woke up moody and it didn’t last long. She chalked up a lot of my occasional moodiness to not having reconciled my father’s death. She was on the right track but had the wrong parent. And, she didn’t understand the connection between LO #2 and my mother. At the time, neither did I.
At 23, coming from a vastly different background, I don’t think my wife could have seen a red flag if she was at a communist party rally in a Bejing stadium. The indicators were outside her experience and education.
At 53, you may or may not be able to see the indicators either. To do an in depth screening, you have to know what you’re looking for and you may have to dig a little to find it. If something seems off, it probably is.
How important is it to you to figure it out?
L.E.,
Apologies to intrude but I have been trying to figure out some things about your LO2 from a lot of different stuff you’ve written over time.
Is the point – in a nutshell – that her attachment style meant that she had (long before you were around) normalised there being disorder/disruption/drama in her relationships? Such that if – as it sounds like you did – you offered her a more ‘normal’ (stable, predictable) form of attachment/love, that this felt too strange and somehow incomplete for the drama that she felt she needed a relationship to be – like something was ‘missing’?
My attempt at analysis doesn’t stem from anything you said in your above post, but more an amalgam of things you’ve said over time, including to Marcia recently. Obviously you’ll tell me if I’m barking totally up the wrong bush, or sparking electrical circuits at the wrong frequency.
LA,
You’re on the right track. As usual, the response will be long.
For the sake of discussion, let’s assume that LO #2 was a trauma survivor and had BPD/NPD (often coincident).
This only applies to me.
In https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/, Schreiber says:
“Every core injured adult child has to live with the tormenting, inescapable question: “Am I good enough to be loved by you?”
– After we broke up, LO #2 went through a list of all the things she missed about our relationship. The nicest thing she ever said to me was, “You taught me how to stand up for myself. I’m grateful to you for that.” This will sound arrogant but LO #2 thrived when I had her back. She did the work but she had me encouraging her and backing her up.
To listen to her, I wasn’t unsatisfactory, I was outstanding. I asked her if that was available to her, why would she fly 1000 miles to spend the weekend with the guy who was cheating on her? Her response:
“It’s one of those things that feels good in the night but leaves you cold in the morning.” (paraphrasing U2).
That’s when I asked her if what she was telling me was that I was a decent guy and there were things that she really liked about me but she wanted to look around some more and if she didn’t find anything she liked better, she might come back and settle for me?
“There’s some truth to that.” – My first thought was to backhand her with my fist. I had to get out of the car and grab the grill to keep from doing it. It was the closest I ever came to striking another person in anger.
When I told that story to the therapist, she said that would have pissed most people off and was glad I was able to restrain myself. The therapist said it also showed that it wasn’t that I wasn’t good enough for LO #2, in LO #2’s mind I was too good for her and she didn’t feel worthy of that. Hence, going back to the guy who cheated on her.
“Core-damaged children grow into needful adults, but they could fear that if they let themselves love somebody as intensely as they want to, that person will freak out, run off into the night, and abandon them.”
– Re-read LO #2’s confession. That’s exactly what she told me.
“Hence, a male who appears to “fear commitment” is more likely trying to avoid engulfment, because he has lacked a positive and wholesome frame of reference for what it means to experience closeness. Sadly, for this adult child, bonding means bondage.” – That describes me.
“The twin fears of Abandonment and Engulfment (or loss of Self), combine with difficult feelings of inadequacy and unworthiness that catalyze destructive, compensatory behaviors. Control issues and addictions help compulsive caregivers defend against painful ambivalence that’s characterized by deep longing but fear of needing, and further undermine their personal strivings and attachment endeavors.”
– LO #2 was a nurse. When I first starting dating her, she was the most self-sabotaging person I ever met. I think that she had a pathological aversion to happiness. The closer she got to it, the more it scared the crap out of her. I told her that if she didn’t figure some things out, she had the potential to go through life as a very unhappy person. At our goodbye, the last thing I remember her saying to me was, “You told me that I had the potential to go through life as a very unhappy person. I hate you for that.” I don’t know if she did or didn’t but the divorce indicated that she didn’t make the turn right away. Control was huge to LO #2. I don’t think she trusted anyone that she couldn’t control and didn’t respect anyone that she could control.
“In truth, the thrill is in pursuit and seduction, which perpetuates an endless re-enactment of a child’s most fervent wish for a closer bond with his/her parent, while defending against a more palpable fear of losing a deeply meaningful and nourishing attachment. This often means, that individuals who are actually capable of loving/caring interactions are distanced, punished or rejected, so that anxiety surrounding devastating abandonment, is kept at bay. This is the Borderline’s crucible.”
– This supports your observation. It also explains why some people make the same mistake repeatedly. LO #2 had an affinity for cheaters. LO #4 had a blind spot for Narcs. She’d rise to a Narc like a trout to a fly. I don’t know that she ever met one that she didn’t try to rehabilitate.
“The person you choose to love and partner with, mirrors your own level of emotional development. If you are truly seeking an authentic and intimate relationship, you won’t attach to or remain with someone who’s not, because he/she isn’t a ‘match’ for your fundamental needs and desires.”
– It took me far too long to realize this.
“It’s crucial to realize, that if one could become responsive to a partner’s needs, he’d be discarded because of other perceived shortcomings or “flaws” that would suddenly seem untenable; again, an emotionally available lover doesn’t provoke an intense visceral response.” – This also supports your observation.
“It should be noted, that if a nourishing symbiosis with Mother isn’t possible during infancy, and a far more attentive/loving attachment is forged with the father, an emotionally sound adult might eventually emerge. But if the father should leave through divorce, death or remarriage, the abandonment trauma this invokes will significantly impact all future relationships. Anxiety surrounding potential loss of another who might have substantial meaning and value, can exacerbate personality disorder features and inhibit or destroy healthy, gratifying adult connections.”
– This describes me in spades. In another work, Schreiber said that she was a colleague of the host of a site I was posting about this subject on. I think Schreiber was reading my stuff. There’s another article behind a paywall that describes one of my posts in nearly exact detail.
All this explains my experience. In retrospect, it’s hard to believe. My relationship with LO #2 played out from November 1982 to April 1988. I was trying to deal with this in my late 20s. My friend, the LCSW, said that I was in way over my head.
Once again, way more than you probably wanted to know.
Glad to read all of this because it does make sense and probably (possibly to a lesser degree) describes fear of abandonment issues that many people face.
Its a good advert for the power of therapy and the effort you put into understanding yourself, LE. It actually also reads like a case when limerwnce was a positive force, in the end, for teaching you about what you wanted in life.
Mila said to Imho / myself the other day that it doesnt really matter what LO has or has not done to upset us. What is most relevant is recognising that the connection is not going to provide what we need. Ever. But it sure can be heloful in helping find out what we need or dont need.
I believe that working out what we need and recognising it in SO (or a new partner for single limerents) is the key to purposeful living. That, and crowd-sourcing other sources of joy from our social and work circles (much of my social circle is work because I work so much and it is a draining job). Of course all of this is dynamic / two-way and we reap what we sow too.
Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks to you, LE, for this. I have been here for years and have heard about LO2 many times but its actually helpful hearing it through various lenses.
And well, you are a good example of someone who never stopped working on themself to make things better.
L.E.,
“Once again, way more than you probably wanted to know”
Ask, and you shall get!
Seriously though, thanks for answering in so much detail.
I think I mostly get a feel for how it was from her side. The bit I hadn’t connected was that the abandonment fear is what really motivates a character of her type to act as she does. I just thought it was all about her feeling that a relationship was only complete when there was drama in it, until you just explained more. That’s helped me to make a few other indirect connections too.
I haven’t yet connected so well, all of what you brought to it. I have read what you said about your parents (and am of course very sorry to hear that). But it seems, from various bits, that despite all that, you did bring more stability to this relationship with LO2. And by asking her to marry you, you didn’t display a phobia of commitment to her. Yet in other places you seem to say you also had commitment issues – the paragraph that ends “bonding means bondage” in particular.
Like Bewitched says, maybe every cycle through it makes a tiny bit more sense of it. And your full story being recounted on LwL does serve as an example to many others who might be less far along the path of self-enlightenment.
Bewitched and LA,
Thank you for your kind words.
WRT my commitment issues. They go back to adolescence. I was a much stronger Dismissive-Avoidant when I was younger than I am today. I credit my wife for the change.
Let’s just say that when LO #2 was singing “Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?”[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tr7Wfsl20Bk – Carole King], I didn’t come back with “Never My Love” [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDDUWC6CU7g – The Association]. I came back with something along the lines of The Marshall Tucker Band’s “Heard It In A Love Song.”
As usual, there’s a lot more to it than that. I can see Marcia’s eyes rolling back in her head so unless you really want to know, I’ll leave it here and you can piece through it in the old blogs. It’s all there but it’s not all in one place.
After my recent posts, I feel the need to say a few more things (bad habit).
A lot of what I say about LO #2 comes across as negative. It is. But, everything I told you in the stories is true.
However…
LO #2 contributed to two of the best years of my life and two of the worst. The trendline was in the wrong direction. Shari Schreiber says, “Whether you’ve chosen to step away from a new relationship or a long-established one, how you orchestrate that ending is crucial, because it’s typically what someone remembers most about you.” – https://sharischreiber.com/whos-doing-your-dirty-work/
As a FWB, LO #2 was outstanding. As a girlfriend, she was pretty good. As an ex, she stunk.
I learned so much from her. She exposed me to places and things that I doubt that I would have ever found on my own. The night we spent Xmas shopping in downtown Seattle was something right out of a Hallmark movie until I came down with the flu or food poisoning and ruined it. I tried to create some of those experiences with my wife but my wife figured out how I knew about them and it turned her off to them. LO #2 taught me things that made me a better person. She was charming company. I don’t remember ever having a bad date with her. She’s the first woman that I ever said, “I love you” to that said it back.
My baggage played into her baggage. I didn’t know what baggage she had because she never told me and she masked it very well. A lot of us who have insecure attachments stemming from childhood do. In HS, I was a mass of insecurity. I felt if people did know the real me, they wouldn’t like me. So, I became a DA, and distanced myself from people. I didn’t care if they liked me, I cared that they respected my competence and left me alone. I overachieved in that respect to the point that I couldn’t buy a date in HS until I was a senior and the girl didn’t really know me all that well.
My attitude was, “This is who I am, take it or leave it.” That’s the mantra of a Narc. A therapist said that I wasn’t a narcissist but I could to a pretty good imitation of one. The therapist said my defenses were highly narcissistic. I asked her why she thought that I wasn’t a Narc?
“Because you knew when to quit and you have a conscience.”
In retrospect, I asked a woman to marry me who I actually knew very little about. I knew more about my wife in 3 months than I knew about LO #2 in 5 years.
For example, LO #2 mentioned in passing that she had been in a serious car wreck years before. You wouldn’t know that from looking at her and I saw all of her. The car, a Triumph TR 6, was in the back yard of her parents’ house, overgrown with weeds. The intent was to eventually restore it. I overheard an exchange between LO #2 and her father that implied that it wasn’t an accident, it was a suicide attempt. I saw a lot of signs. But, I didn’t understand their significance and I was able to respond to them.
My friend said the I did “an excellent job of managing her.” My friend said that I was very good for LO #2 in that I provided her with boundaries and stability she needed but I didn’t create the problems and I couldn’t fix them. I would have had to “manage” her forever and eventually, it would weigh me down. It did and forever didn’t take all that long to arrive.
When LO #2 asked, “If I don’t sleep with you, is that the end of the friendship?” I responded honestly and said eventually. I was ready to write her off and move on but she changed her mind and I ended up falling in love with her.
When we started dating, we were brutally honest with each other. Neither of us could ever say that we didn’t know what we were signing up for. Right before I asked her to marry me, it was like we had guns pointed at each other. She wanted a commitment, I’d give her one. I put the gun down and asked her to marry to marry me. I wasn’t happy with the decision, I knew what I had to do and I would do it. I entered an almost zen-like tranquility. I told that story to a psychologist colleague and he said that’s what they observe in someone from the time they decide to commit suicide and carry it out.
LO #2 could have responded a number of ways. She could have put her gun down, we could have worked on things and gone on to an uncertain future. She could have pulled the trigger and married me to an uncertain future. But, she dropped the gun and ran. I didn’t see that coming.
But, the truth is that I loved her. My friend asked if I still loved her. I said probably. I asked my friend how do you unlove someone that you genuinely loved. You may realize that you don’t belong together and there may be very good reasons for that.
But, you still love them and you probably always will.
LE,
I finally get to see the other side of the coin — your LE#2… 👏
Touched… 🥲
Thanks, Snow,
This song captures my last post:
“Someone that I Used to Love” – Barbara Streisand (1989)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV9KnN03TcE
It’s incredibly sad.
But, the one thing I am most grateful to LO #2 for was she showed me that happiness was a possibility for me. Until I met her, I didn’t think it was.
As painfully as it ended, my life changed for the better when I met her.
LE,
To me, your story proves that cliche: no pain, no gain! Any substantial lessons come from painful experiences of one’s life…
To me, it’s still fortunate — Dostoyevsky’s haven, that one is able to LOVE, especially unfortunate ones, despite it’s fruitless in love itself.
Sometimes, an unexpected fruit one, if survived and thrived, has reaped from a “tragedy” is beneficial beyond one’s imagination or a Fate’s meddling.
“But, the one thing I am most grateful to LO #2 for was she showed me that happiness was a possibility for me. Until I met her, I didn’t think it was.”
LE, that’s so beautifully said. And I realized that applies to my first boyfriend as well. I’ve always known how lucky I was to have him as my first: first boyfriend, first kiss, first lover. I’m nothing if not a good judge of character. That may be a strange thing from a limerent to say. But there’s never been anything particularly wrong with my LOs (two of them) – they just haven’t been in love with me. And if anyone else that I’ve dated has been less than stellar, I barely remember, because usually those relationships have ended quickly. And I wouldn’t dwell on them either.
“I learned so much from her. She exposed me to places and things that I doubt that I would have ever found on my own.”
This is another great point L.E. – and more proof of what Snow says that real good can emerge from things even when they feel overall painful on balance.
I have a distant-past narc SO (never an LO) who I can’t say this about. Like, there must have been *some* good, and I can vaguely remember moments of joy akin to your Seattle shopping trip. But they are too tainted by what occurred subsequently for me to be able to see them properly – like the better memories have faded to black and white. And that’s OK/long since reconciled with – I’m just sharing that example because it is good to hear that you had a different outcome.
LaR,
“I have a distant-past narc SO (never an LO) who I can’t say this about.“
When it comes to memory of Narc, the other side of the coin seemed to be permanently eroded with their narcissistic acid, no longer able to shine no matter how I flip the coin up and down. I hated the coin’s dark side from my core, which was damaged probably since the birth from Narc Mom.
Nowadays, If I deem someone is Narc (their words always betray them behind their facade), he or she simply vanishes from my head for good…. I feel much comfortable to interact with people from whom I can sense some vulnerabilities.
With the ongoing easing/healing my cptsd and reparenting myself, I am able to face narcs, in person (Mom) or in memory (LO#3&6), with increasing serenity. They are beyond pitiful….
My Glimmer, even a sympathetic one, never picked up a Narc.
No
Did you hear much of the reference to my LO#3&6, except that
LaR,
Sorry that I left a bit of editing mess in my previous post. The last two lines are supposed to be removed.
No ink needs to be wasted in chatting about Narc LO#3&6, besides the justification I felt to punch LO#6’s face — the 2nd punch of another human being in my life!
The first punch was to Mom when I was 15, which permanently stopped her habits to slap my face whenever she was in an ill mood and fault-picking…. Never expected that I have to take care of her until she exits life…. 😮💨 *sigh*…
Snow,
“Never expected that I have to take care of her until she exits life…. 😮💨 *sigh*…”
Yeah, that sucks.
How do you deal with the resentment?
LE,
My resentment has gone 99.9% since I came back from COO, even when I have to face and take her to her routine appointments — she’s quite healthy and live independently 4 blocks away. But one day she will definitely need more physical help.
I vented out the most of my resentment of Mom to E.T who empathized me a lot; sometimes responded in person, sometime just listened to my agitations and nightmares that involved her — in one dream, she carried her surgical tray to my medical bed in her clinic, I was so frightened 😱 that she’d slice my throat that jumped up in my realistic bed. In another dream, I tried to stab her shin with her surgical knife, but it simply would not go in when I kept stabbing while she stood there with a cold face watching me.
The past cptsd was dialed to the maximum volume when she arrived 6 summers ago. ET (also two therapists intermittently) happened to be there listening to my rants of the whole damaged past with her, which calmed down a lot of my anxiety and cptsd-add-on “attacks” — Mom continued her narc behaviors when she first arrived, probably thinking I was the same as that “insecure” (the word she used to describe me) or frightened kid/teenage.
This time, I fought back with oral and written words — sometimes literally bellowed to her face, and LC/NC in all holidays and her birthday. Finally, after 4 or 5 years, she backed up and began to modify her sense and behaviors of Narc entitlement, stupid manipulation, blame-shifting, and straightforward, shameless lies/denials that simply printed on both our cell phones! Still, she refuses to apologize for anything she had said or done in the past, arguing it’s COO way, in which every parent had done so, which is not true! I wanted and wished so much that my good gfs’ mothers could adopt me.
Now, can you imagine how all these unexpected, inflamed “events” fanned and strengthened my surrogate-parent LE tie to ET? A wanton Sensor or not, ET did serve as a “reliable” parent figure, when Dad just dropped out of life. Later, ET said he saw my needs and wanted to be there to help, so did not block my endless monologues, even if he did not read all of them. And my imagination of the perfect Phantom, who wore ET’s face, made my recovery/healing from old and new cptsd possible over 6 years.
After hundreds of written and oral “rants”, I gradually became calmer with Mom, truly acknowledging and accepting that she could not help being narcissistic for some reasons of her own background and upbringing. After my COO trip and that scarily powerful dream (on 7/7), I almost overnight became a full parent to myself; then Mom appeared and still looks like a little girl, eager to flatter and please me nowadays to get my smiles.
I even suggested meals together occasionally, just to test and continue practicing my Stoic skills with Mom. We ate almost silently with a bit of salt& pepper stuff and a shopping list from her, since she can’t read English in stores.
Snow,
Before I read the second message I was going to reply that the only detail which has stuck with me from your sharings about LO6 is that you punched him in the face!
Re your mother, I am glad you have found much more serenity, but I also hear you on your worries about the future as the caregiving need gets greater. Hopefully you can work it out slowly and with minimal impact on your life.
After narc ex and the therapy, my single biggest learning (and it sounds a bit similar to your way of reconciling stuff with your Mom), was to become OK with not always being able to convince others of facts that I know to be true – ie becoming firmer in one’s own beliefs and worldview. It is enough to know or believe something strongly for yourself – others will have their own version of ‘the facts’ (like your Mom does) and it is (sometimes) futile to try and shift THEM, just as long as WE know it and stick to our mental guns. That might sound obvious to your Stoic ear, yet it took me therapy to get there. Narc XSO was an expert gaslighter. These days I don’t let anyone gaslight me.
The change has caused me to shed unhelpful friends and gain new ones.
I have a situation where – because of their health / care needs – I need to forgive a sibling (possibly BPD or similar personality disorder) for some really significant and long term bad behaviours, including but not limited to gaslighting. It is the biggest test of this mindset I described above. I feel confident in my version of the facts, but not yet also forgiving of my sibling, whose facts and worldview are in a parallel universe. A lot of it has only surfaced in the last year or two. The LE is, in all honesty, a secondary stressor in my life compared to that situation. I believe it is one of the causes of the LE, because it gave me both distraction and more access to the very wise counsel from MFF about handling that situation.
This topic also made me think more about your question about how I interact on LwL. You might (justifiably) say I don’t always appear to be able to do that ‘reconciliation of facts’ process in respect of my LE. I can on a ‘visceral’ and executive level (I do believe I know what has happened and why), but the doubts creep in because of day to day twists and turns, and, most crucially, because of not possessing – or even being able to possess – ‘the full facts’, ie MFF’s side of the story. So this is a test of my more ‘Stoic’ side, which is why I use LwL to stress test possibilities against the opinions of others who have experienced limerence.
And that is indeed my ‘T’ side speaking. If I have close to full facts / range of opinions to analyse, I can work things out and sit comfortably with them. LEs (unless disclosed) are by nature ‘half facts’ matters – this is indeed more difficult for a T like me to sit with. I am not feeling much discomfort about MFF this week, so I don’t want to get deeply back into it for now – but some of what I’ve said here might help answer the extra question you raised with me this week.
Have a good day (once yours starts)
Snow,
Thanks for your response. It sounds like you are well grounded and moving forward.
LA,
It sounds like you and I are similar in wanting to have full facts and details. We need to know why things are the way they are.
That’s important to some people and not important to others. As I got older and the arc of my life became more defined with less time to alter it, why things happen is of less concern.
But, there was a time that how I ended up on that arc was really important.
Another bad analogy:
I was cruising along when LO #4 came out of nowhere like a Surface-to-Air missile that could take me out. It wasn’t that I didn’t know SAMs existed, I thought I wasn’t still vulnerable to them. I’d dodged them before and eliminated the risk.
LE, LaR,
A short cut in here (in subway) :
A lot of what we did are caused or pushed by our unconscious, there were no appt at reasons. On this I firmly believe that JUNG is right— the Unconscious rules ultimately. It’s especially true with people who had core damage in their infancy or early childhood, we don’t have conscious memories but subconscious one’s. The mere sight of our abusers or the similar looks could trigger/ agitate us and make us REACT illogically to what was/is bruised in OUR subconscious level that has little to do with what you did or said.
Yet, the brain with strong T wants to analyze and figure out our behaviors by sheer logic and react accordingly, which is largely futile.
We human being are never fixed but changing, slowly or fast. Uncertainties and unknowns are a default of human existence, wise one needs to calmly face and accept them in any situation.
Getting off the train.
This ongoing conversation really makes me solidified in the fact that LO glimmered to me only AFTER I got to know her more. The more and more I got into her life and she let me do so, I was subconsciously trying to relive my past with another woman before I met Momma. She was almost an exact replica down to some very detailed and uncanny similarities. That’s why my own actions were unapparent to me until others pointed them out to me. Much to my bewildered amazement. Like a earwig burrowed into my brain to remind me of her. Except neither of them were named Aubrey.
LaR, LE,
“The mere sight of our abusers or the similar looks could trigger/ agitate us and make us REACT illogically to what was/is bruised in OUR subconscious level that has little to do with what you did or said.” — Snow
I didn’t mean you (collectively) has similar looks of “our abusers”, but was saying that when triggered subconsciously, I could react irritably or illogically without any apparent logics, to you or even myself.
In my semi-conscious (half conscious) mind, I had Mom’s habitual irritated moods or contemptuous face and that young predator’s grinning, as if in front of my eyes now (body records/scores more than what we know)— the unconscious reasons I helplessly rejected any men’s Glimmer at me first, prior to mine, even if I knew/saw their pair-bonding attraction was genuine or at least meant no harm.
My unconscious needs to select its possible, safe target — only LO 1, 4, 4.5 & ET met the criteria…
Adam, really glad to hear what you just said, you seem to be getting to a root of your LE…
L.E.
“As I got older and the arc of my life became more defined with less time to alter it, why things happen is of less concern.”
I like the sound of that.
Adam,
“This ongoing conversation really makes me solidified in the fact that LO glimmered to me only AFTER I got to know her more.”
It took ten years for my friend to glimmer at me and turn into an LO. I guess it’s no surprise that the question ‘why her and why now?’ is a big one. I can answer it on surface levels (have done to Snow before) but try as I might, I can’t yet put my finger on what deeper nerve from my past she has touched. I can’t think of anyone where I’m either trying to make up for a past disappointment (like you say applies to you) or play out some unresolved business from the past (like L.E. says applies to him). If anything, what hooks me in is that she is just very *different* from anyone I’ve really had close to me before.
Snow,
“Yet, the brain with strong T wants to analyze and figure out our behaviors by sheer logic and react accordingly, which is largely futile.”
I agree that trying to rely on the T brain *alone* is often futile. The Thinking has its place, but only if co-ordinated properly with feeling. Feeling on its own doesn’t always give answers either – I think it needs a balance.
“the unconscious reasons I helplessly rejected any men’s Glimmer at me first, prior to mine, even if I knew/saw their pair-bonding attraction was genuine or at least meant no harm.
My unconscious needs to select its possible, safe target — only LO 1, 4, 4.5 & ET met the criteria…”
You’ve been clear before about how your glimmers have to start from you, and also about how they are normally intuitively accurate about reading a person. Both of these things being true, why would you say it is that several other LOs (at least four more) failed to meet the criteria? Did that intuitive radar of your glimmer (to pick a suitable candidate) only develop more recently?
Snow,
I have read biographies of Freud and Jung. I think I read something by Jung but I don’t remember what. Between the two, I tilt toward Jung but I haven’t studied them enough to understand either of them. I got to a point in Jung’s biography where my eyes kind of rolled back in my head and I’d had enough.
What little I know of Freud comes from reading “The Case Against Psychoanalysis” by Andrew Salter. I read it in HS. My father saw it and asked why I was reading it. I liked the title. In the 50s and 60s, spending time on the psychiatrist couch talking about your mother and penis envy was a trope. I grew up in that era along with “mother’s little helper,” valium. [I’ve had doctors prescribe me both valium and xanax for medical procedures. They both work but I prefer valium way more. Better living through chemistry!]
I’m a fan of some of Hermann Hesse’s works, “Beneath the Wheel” in particular. Apparently, Hesse and Jung were friends and a significant portion of Hesse’s works reflect Jung. I read “Steppenwolf” in college and thought it was really profound. I think the more I drank, the more profound it became. I re-read it a few years ago and by the middle of the book, I was ready to load the gun myself and give it to Harry Haller.
LO #4 was a PsyD. She told me that she was going to Switzerland to attend a Jung Symposium. It might have been interesting to talk to her about it.
I’m toying with the idea of trying to reconcile Jung with the orthodox Christian doctrine of Original Sin. I think I understand Original Sin pretty well but I’d have to do a lot of work to understand Jung and I don’t think I’m up for that.
LE,
“I have read biographies of Freud and Jung. I think I read something by Jung but I don’t remember what. Between the two, I tilt toward Jung but I haven’t studied them enough to understand either of them. I got to a point in Jung’s biography where my eyes kind of rolled back in my head and I’d had enough.”
I never heard of Freud or Jung in COO and knew nothing about their work. Once exposed, I intuitively leaned towards Jung’s philosophy, Freud theories are quite “alienated” to my upbringing. Though in general, I don’t read much biographies of authors, I did know a bit about the both psychologists. Again contents/characters of books of any kind have been always my focus, I could not care less if books were written in bed or in prison, like Proust or Cervantes. Needless to say where I am typing the night away now, right? 😀
I haven’t studies Jung in depth, either, but read his book “Men and His symbols”, some of “the Undiscovered Self” and scanned “the Red book”. Over the summer of 2023, I intensely followed Youtube channel “Jung to live By”, a post-Jung institute in England, and found their modern Jungian views “making sense”, more evolved than the original Jungian theories.
But reading books or watching video is just for head, not enough for the union of body, mind, and soul. I adopted their self-hypnosis skill and combined it with my Vipassana meditation, and then had breakthrough during that summer. (I talked about this her last Fall.) When I felt anxious or stressed about unknowns, I did my combo “remedy” anywhere. I try to keep it regularly first/last thing in the day, more effective in soothing/calming brain and nerves than any physical workouts combined!
“What little I know of Freud comes from reading “The Case Against Psychoanalysis” by Andrew Salter. I read it in HS. My father saw it and asked why I was reading it. I liked the title. “
I haven’t really read any Freud’s works but know about them from the pop culture. My high-nosed psychoanalyst of 2016-2020 (diagnosed my cptsd by my family and COO) adopted his approach. I fought with her arrogant and authoritarian style, fired her twice and almost wrote a horrible review on Google. But she “stood by” her phone when I was in COO dealing with father’s last few days with unspeakable fear (my body could not stop shaking day and night) for the imminent, terrifying unknown. I deeply appreciated her heart; she meant no harm to my brain.
“I’m a fan of some of Hermann Hesse’s works, “Beneath the Wheel” in particular. Apparently, Hesse and Jung were friends and a significant portion of Hesse’s works reflect Jung. I read “Steppenwolf” in college and thought it was really profound. ”
I also like Herman Hesse and read “Steppenwolf” and “”Siddhartha”, like the latter better, though the former seems to fit me more. Hesse’s mind is really profound. Jung was also into the Eastern philosophy and arts such as I Ching, which I know about nothing about, not into it.
“I think the more I drank, the more profound it became. I re-read it a few years ago and by the middle of the book, I was ready to load the gun myself and give it to Harry Haller.”
What does this reference mean? You were going to let the Steppenwolf out of you to “dance”?
“I’m toying with the idea of trying to reconcile Jung with the orthodox Christian doctrine of Original Sin. I think I understand Original Sin pretty well but I’d have to do a lot of work to understand Jung and I don’t think I’m up for that.”
As far as I know, Jung remained a faithful Christian to his death. His shadow work is aimed to help everyone to express, acknowledge, and integrate (not condemning or acting out) those morally shadowy parts (based on Christian ethics). I found this work tremendously helpful in removing some ideologically “embedded” self-shaming, low esteem, despair senses, imposed by COO inhuman culture.
After recalling my old dreams and some life events, and watching my uncountable dreams of the recent years (during LE), I found Jungian theory on the impact of the Unconscious is quite accurate, at least to the past and present me, who was strongly willed and directed by too much “T”in the brain, while hiding F, P, S vulnerable… I suppressed my authentic Selfs too much and behaved like a inhuman robot, which has made me regret a lot.
I still can’t grasp Jung’s Collective Unconscious theory; I only wish I had known and studied Jung’s individuation process much earlier. To practice it with my kind of complexity (woven by both East and West frictions and conflicts and the personal experiences) is a bit too much sometimes….
No one is just able to run away from his or her own mind… 😴💤
Snow,
WRT to Hesse, especially Steppenwolf the issue was went I reread Hesse at this point in my life, I could no longer identify with many of the characters.
In college, I identified with the protagonist. When I reread it, I still do. With Steppenwof, when I reread it, I didn’t find Harry Haller uninteresting. To me. He wasn’t either tragic, heroic, good, or evil. I think Haller would have made a good limerent.
Spend 5 minutes with Haller, and I think a lot of people would be thinking, “Make it stop!” Hence my comment about loading the gun. Today, I see Haller as tedious and annoying.
I did my senior English paper in HS on Hesse. As I remember, I read Beneath the Wheel, Steppenwolf, Demian, and Siddhartha. My aunt did her masters thesis on Siddhartha and I referenced it in my paper. My teacher said that was something she had never seen in over 20 years of teaching.
In college, I would have said that Hesse was my favorite author. Now, he’s like 4th or 5th. The older I got, the more authors I found that I like better.
DrL wrote a blog in which he discusses Narcissus and Goldmund. When I have more time later, I’ll find it and link it.
You bring a different perspective to LwL. I don’t interact with many people from non-Western cultures and I don’t interact with those I do over a common issue to the depth your comments go. We’re looking at the same thing but but through very different lenses.
Going tangential, mental health treatment has changed over the years. At least in the US, psychiatrists seem to spend less time trying to find the cause of problems, they assess symptoms and do medication management. They leave altering the behavior to therapists.
When my son went through crippling anxiety and depression after being diagnosed as a Type 1 diabetic we took him to therapists. They all said that he was treatment resistant and recommended he see a psychiatrist who could unwind him with medication. He was hospitalized several times. One time, he bolted in the parking lot of the ER parking lot. Two deputies happened to be there, saw him run, chased him down and carried him in, a deputy under each arm. Another time, police took him to the ER in handcuffs after he started trashing the house and took a swing at me.
We went though numerous therapists and psychiatrists. Psych wards in local hospitals will stabilize someone to a point and, when they’re discharged, they’re on their own. After-discharge programs are marginally effective and without a support system, the odds of someone getting better are lousy.
My son is doing a lot better but it takes work. He’s not where he should be. As a young adult, we found that his diabetes management is crucial to his mental health and we’re addressing that with his endocrinologist, psychiatrist, and therapist. As a Type 1 diabetic, he couldn’t take some drugs that might have helped him because he couldn’t control his blood sugar on them.
He’s also now willing to confront how the diagnosis affected him. My take is the diagnosis caused unresolved trauma. As an adolescent, he wasn’t developmentally capable of understanding and dealing with it. One therapist said that there was a good chance he’d get better on his own but it would take a decade to get there.
It’s getting close to a decade but we have a ways to go. We think the diabetes management is the big hurdle to the next breakthrough.
I’ve gone through one period of clinical depression in my life. I was put on an SSRI. I knew what the origin was. What I didn’t know was why it hit me like it did. When the circumstances, which had a solution to and a determined end date, returned to normal. I stopped the SSRI and went back to being my old self.
These issues can be so complex.
LE,
I’m so sorry to hear about your son’s story, which proves the inevitable, influential ties of body and mind in microscopic and macroscopic levels. I have very ambivalent attitudes towards western medicines. Have you ever tried some natural, herbal remedies, from different cultures (French, Chinese, or?), to control sugar level?
Weak or dis-eased body can hardly promote or maintain a content or peaceful mind. I hope your son gets better steadily little by little….
I didn’t know that your life has been so challenging in so many aspects…
LaR,
Ah, finally got a moment where my blood pressure is pumping up a little bit (while low, depression naturally comes w/o reasons)
“the only detail which has stuck with me from your sharings about LO6 is that you punched him in the face!”
Sharing another “surreal” detail: a few months before I eventually punched LO6, he had a dinner with my parents and me and told me afterwards that Mom flirted with him, “her eyes are ‘scary’”. It was not the first time Mom flirted with my bf, that’s how narcissistic she could be — to get anyone’s attention of any kind…
“Re your mother, I am glad you have found much more serenity, but I also hear you on your worries about the future as the caregiving need gets greater. Hopefully you can work it out slowly and with minimal impact on your life.“
That’s why I spent some time/effort coaching her muscle strengthening exercises, urging her healthy diet, for my own selfish aim. Luckily as a retired surgeon, she’s a health nut/freak, listening to her doctors’ advice, sticking to healthy diet, and exercising daily (2-3 hours).
“Narc XSO was an expert gaslighter. These days I don’t let anyone gaslight me. The change has caused me to shed unhelpful friends and gain new ones.”
Good for you! 💪 Unhelpful friends cannot be called friends, they can bring others “invisible or bloodless” harms. Stick to your Stoic guns to keep them at bay.
“I have a situation where – because of their health / care needs – I need to forgive a sibling (possibly BPD or similar personality disorder) for some really significant and long term bad behaviours, including but not limited to gaslighting.”
What does your “forgive” entail? Are you sure that their health NEED or require your forgiveness? In what ways? 🤨 I believe a fundamental cure (in addition to necessary prescribed medications) springs from one’s within. But a Narc is a cake unable to be unbaked, regardless what another does. If only with narcissistic traits, one’s still hopeful. (I have 35% 😊). I don’t think a limerents can be an authentic narcissist, unless they’re in LE with themselves (un)knowingly….
I don’t know BPD well, despite a lot of LwLers use that term. Can you be politely stoic outside and firmly Stoic inside while dealing with this sibling? Do you need to interact with him/her regularly? Could you term up with your SO to encounter him/her? (Just enlisting your SO for help/support, whether fertile or not, would validate her sense of worth!)
“It is the biggest test of this mindset I described above. I feel confident in my version of the facts, but not yet also forgiving of my sibling, whose facts and worldview are in a parallel universe. “
Deep inside us, we know what hurts or benefits our psyche; therefore, our subject interpretation of “the facts” is a valid truth, even if a bitter one. Now, your sibling is in a “parallel universe” twisting/denying your set of facts; can you understand why s/he viewed it in her/his ways? Do you comprehend why and how a BPD or Gaslighter did what they did? With such understandings, what do you think would be the best stoic/Stoic yet compassionate solutions to encounter him/her??
I understand the causes of narc Mom’s behaviors, which don’t not justify her entitlement/right for having done so in the past or reduce the amount of wound I suffered for lifetime. The challenge for me has been what I could do with all the facts and my cptsd sufferings? I talked about them in therapists’ room but not nearly as effective as I complained to ET (all LO’s 🦻are made special… ) . Meanwhile, I also confronted Mom directly, naming, explaining, and teaching her what she did to me.
However, she played deaf and simply dismissed all Western psychologies. After seeing its futility, I went to LC/NC, while taking care of her logistic needs with a stoic face, after she smirked at me on the corner of her lips, while aggravating me with her habitual criticism or sarcasm about everyone and everything in the world. Then I remembered that a Narc needs and treats everyone else as fuel, positive or negative… If they can’t get positive one, they’d provoke negative one from you (collective). As long as you give them any kind of attention, s/he gets the much needed fuel for their bottomless insecurity hole. While seeing the amount of insecurity in her eyes, I actually could not help but felt sorry for Mom; but no one could remove that fear/insecurity except herself.
“A lot of it has only surfaced in the last year or two. The LE is, in all honesty, a secondary stressor in my life compared to that situation.”
Yes, dealing with an unavoidable, “sick” family member can affect or damage one’s personal life, even if with a smooth-sailing relationship. In this situation, I think there is more urgent need to sharpen one’s Stoic tools while showing a certain amount of compassion — not weakness. A sharp LE pain caused by ET made me to begin exploring Stoicism in the summer of 2019, then I practiced it with both Mom and ET, who knew very well my painful struggles against the past traumas.
“I believe it is one of the causes of the LE, because it gave me both distraction and more access to the very wise counsel from MFF about handling that situation.”
It’s the same here. My LE got much deepened since Mom arrived.
“This topic also made me think more about your question about how I interact on LwL. You might (justifiably) say I don’t always appear to be able to do that ‘reconciliation of facts’ process in respect of my LE.”
The very limited access for any LwLer to any case is: we could only hear partial SUBJECT facts from a limerent’s description, without our own first-hand information/experience. Moreover, the said limerent with LE lens might have all sorts of illusions in the altered state of mind, with LO interacting with them day/week in or day/week out. So we outsiders are compelled to listen to between lines or some discrepancy that seems to suggest those “subject facts” are not always coherent or accurate. So it might be inevitable that a limerent is holding partial or twisted or confused “facts” about their LO/LE.
“I can on a ‘visceral’ and executive level (I do believe I know what has happened and why), but the doubts creep in because of day to day twists and turns, and, most crucially, because of not possessing – or even being able to possess – ‘the full facts’, ie MFF’s side of the story. “
Perhaps we all have to accept that limerents may never “possess” nearly accurate “what has happened and why” on the other side, even if LO was one’s friend prior to LE . No one lives in another’s head, and MFF/LO’s thoughts and emotions about us are also subject to change at any given time, which might or might not have anything to do with our actions of reactions to them — e.g. another LO suddenly drops in your MFF’s or your own life. The strive to know or “possess” another’s mind is FUTILE, very much against Stoic beliefs/principles, simply because it’s beyond one’s control. I can attest that I could not even predict my own mind or action for the next day during the peak of LE.
“So this is a test of my more ‘Stoic’ side, which is why I use LwL to stress test possibilities against the opinions of others who have experienced limerence.”
LwL is a triggering minefield for almost all of us. It could also serve as an hot oven to practice and refine one’s Stoic skills or “stress test” all possibilities mirroring one’s own LE struggles, in whatever moral context. This place is much unsafe than a therapist’s room, simply because there are trolls that feed on others’ vulnerabilities or “immoralities”. Without an iron, Stoic mind, one could be crushed, bleeding invisibly! But an echo chamber is useless or even enabling, unable help one’s self-discovery or growth through a painful but possibly valuable LE.
“And that is indeed my ‘T’ side speaking. If I have close to full facts / range of opinions to analyse, I can work things out and sit comfortably with them.”
I do not necessarily agree with you here. T side can solve a lot of logical matters, but our human emotions are not logical a lot of times. S, F, P’s voices should be listened to carefully and intuitively, which come from our Unconscious — curbing/balanceing our T mind. Also, facts don’t always stay/remain stable in our human fickle emotional department, that IS a FACT, a discouraging one! 😞.
“LEs (unless disclosed) are by nature ‘half facts’ matters – this is indeed more difficult for a T like me to sit with. “
It’s the same here, although my T is BECOMING less than F and P, but still too strong in my 👁️. Back in 🔴 COO, where it was all about T — Hesse’s Narcissus walking in almost every aspects of daily life, our F, S, Ps — Goldmunds, are were/are oppressed and crashed. I had a bit more Goldumnd because I escaped into Western classical literature since 10 and made myself an “alien” before ever stepped on the West soil.
“I agree that trying to rely on the T brain *alone* is often futile. The Thinking has its place, but only if co-ordinated properly with feeling. Feeling on its own doesn’t always give answers either – I think it needs a balance.”
Strongly agree with you here; T brain alone can make one a robot! LE just linked DrL’s old blog on “Narcissus and Goldmund”, very much symbolizing my internal struggles. In my past experiences, whenever I trusted T/Narcisseu, I always made small or bigger mistakes. Moreover, my habitual T would not allow my inside to fully FEEL. A motherly therapist had worked hard with me (before 2016) asking me to describe my feelings of the moment; but I just couldn’t, as if all entrances to my feelings were totally blocked. Later when I fearfully make my Goldmund to breath, particularly in this LE, my P, F, I turned out to be surreally 😳 “right” in many concrete details. I sometimes just wanted to shut down the 👁️ of T/Narcisseu, which made me more somber or depressed.
“You’ve been clear before about how your glimmers have to start from you, and also about how they are normally intuitively accurate about reading a person. “
Yes. But one could go into a LE without a glimmer, if one is unknowingly in need of something else or in some adversity. Nowadays, I also category Glimmer with a subdivision: Pair-bonding Glimmer (PBG), Sympathetic-Rescuing glimmer (SrG), Vanity glimmer (VG — superficially compatible), Damsel-in-need/Parental glimmer (DPG).
“Both of these things being true, why would you say it is that several other LOs (at least four more) failed to meet the criteria? “
With LO1&7, it’s — PBG+ DPG; LO2 — PBG; Narc LO3&6 — VG ; LO4 — PBG; (long distance)LO4.5 — PBG+DPG; LO5 — SrG. The rest is not worth to discuss, since there was little/none realistic close interactions, e.g. a big PBG for the gay man, a Lit. TA (married) and a Lit. GS (even physically looked like ET, w/ gf).
“Did that intuitive radar of your glimmer (to pick a suitable candidate) only develop more recently?”
After coming to LwL, I could not help but go back to analyze all my romantic encounters and glimmers of big or small (in 2 digits ☺️). I so clearly remembered the first five second of every big Glimmer like yesterday, because the sensation — literally like a switch clicked in the brain, quietly glided through my head and a bit in heart area. Up to this day I cannot name what I saw — something very familiar, perhaps a bit of myself, in their (LO 1, 4, 7) eyes, all of which were focusing elsewhere at that moment.
My T brain clearly tells me nowadays that my Glimmer was far off from what I ideally wanted/needed… My needy situation of all time— the unresolved cptsd (and OCD), drove me into a LE with them quickly. My bit of Buddhistic upbringing (I received many substantial, genuine, almost selfless Agape from ordinary/“small” people while growing up in an overall “harsh”, unfree condition) made me understand and forgive them soon or later, but not forget or get out of LE easily….
Still, I like a very flexible mind that is open and ready to all possibilities. As a default, life is unpredictable, can go any directions at any given time. To quote a Buddhistic mantra — “Relax, nothing is under control!”
Hope you have a Good Friday and weekend!
LE,
“As usual, there’s a lot more to it than that. I can see Marcia’s eyes rolling back in her head ”
Lol. No, I actually was watching a series on hulu on the Chippendales, whose early shows were low quality. They brought in a choreographer. It took a gay man to understand what women wanted. 🙂
Marcia,
Not surprised about the choreographer. Years ago, I read an article on the most successful women’s shoe salesman at Nordstrom. The article said he was gay. He knew what his customers wanted and they loved him.
LO #2 told me that nearly all the men who make retail a career are gay. She worked in the Men’s Department of the Seattle Marshall Fields affiliate during college so I took her word for it. She claimed that she could pick a gay guy out of a room.
She said, “A man’s best friend is a dog. A woman’s best friend is a gay man.”
LE,
You referenced LO number 2 again! You can’t not mention her, can you? 🙂
Even in something as innocuous as my comment about dancers.
LE, here are some words might fitting for your LO#2 (even though she’s not gone yet) —
****
At the Mid Hour of Night
Thomas Moore
At the mid hour of night, when stars are weeping, I fly
To the lone vale we loved, when life shone warm in thine eye;
And I think oft, if spirits can steal from the regions of air,
To revisit past scenes of delight, thou wilt come to me there,
And tell me our love is remembered, even in the sky.
Then I sing the wild song ’twas once such pleasure to hear!
When our voices commingling breathed, like one, on the ear;
And, as Echo far off through the vale my sad orison rolls,
I think, oh my love! ’tis thy voice from the Kingdom of Souls,
Faintly answering still the notes that once were so dear.
****
“You can’t not mention her, can you?”
All I need is an excuse. And most people know it. Both those that hate it and those that don’t care.
@Limerent Emeritus.
Just dropping by to pay you a few awkward compliments…
You seem to have really found your feet when it comes to helping people. Who knew, at your age, you’d be surrounded by attractive younger women (and the odd man) seeking out your wise counsel? Maybe you have always underestimated the not-inconsiderable charm of your own personality? 🙂
For my own personal taste, your style of communication comes across a little harsh at times. I feel you could soften your phrasing, etc. However, I think there is a version of limerence that is so stubborn and pernicious that maybe a carefully weighed amount of harshness is not entirely inapt. (What’s the point of talking if the truth is buried under so much pleasant waffle one can’t find the truth?)
To be honest, I am someone who hates conflict and is very easily offended. I also assume everyone else is as easily offended as I am, and I spend my life trying not to upset or offend people. (From a young age, roaming the playground all by myself, lost in daydreams, I learned my mere existence tends to offend/overexcite people. And that was just the teachers. Never mind the other students). 🙂
If someone doesn’t like what I say, I tend either to withdraw or to modify my own views and say I agree with something I don’t necessarily agree with, just to escape uncomfortable feelings created by interpersonal tension. You, on the other hand, stick to your guns and say what you believe, even in the face of concerted opposition. I wonder if the “E” and the “T” in your personality help you stand your ground, and be yourself, without succumbing to intense social pressure? Or maybe you are simply old enough to know the genuine article from the fake?
Just wanted to say I appreciate you. Do I like you? Nope. Not unless you’re quoting LOTR. But I appreciate you because I can see your integrity. 🙂
P.S. Never begin a comment with “Well”. It’s just so cringey. 😜
Thank you, Sammy
As one of my Commanding Officer’s put it, “There’s a fine between assertive and obnoxious and you L.E. are frequently on the wrong side of that line.”
@Limerent Emeritus.
I heard the funniest joke on Australian TV last night.
Female comic: “I like my coffee like I like my men. Bitter and slightly unpleasant.” 😆😆😆
It’s a variation of an old joke.
In the Navy, we said that we like our coffee like we like women, blonde and sweet (me), blonde and bitter, pick a combo. That’s how we asked for it.
Those days are gone forever. These days saying that can ruin your career, especially one variation of those combinations.
Snow,
Here’s the link to the blog about “Narcissus and Goldmund” I referred to in my earlier post https://livingwithlimerence.com/dealing-with-conflicting-desires/.
The blog is interesting in light of current posts.
Thanks, LE!
Aren’t there both Narcissus and Goldmund in each of us battling occasionally or all the time (mine at the daily basis 😮💨)?
Both Hesse and DrL are so insightful…
What an interesting conversation to have about helping mechanisms after just watching a Jordan Peterson video on parenting and one vs two parent families. And I thought well if Miss Lovisa is LwL’s den mother than we need another parent. And I think L.E. fits the role of the empirical father to complement our den mother.
And I know that I can personally attest to both L.E. and Miss Lovisa being great parents to help me with my limerence when I first arrived here. The kind words of Mother and the practical words of Father. (And then there is our helpful Aunt Marcia because she’d throttle me through the internet if I called her Mother.) Both work together to form the cure for my state of mind and then the pragmatic steps to take to move past my altered state of mind. And really who better be our parents than the two biggest stalwarts of LwL.
Besides I think Mother would spoil all of us with her kindness and empathy if we didn’t have Father to contrast that with.
I know that since my mother was a stay at home mother to raise my sister and I she was also the punisher as well. To me cause I did stupid things and my sister didn’t. Father was always the one to come home and talk to me about WHY I was being punished and what I needed to do to correct my behavior.
And they work tirelessly with all us children of LwL to soothe us and keeps us on the straight and narrow. And one more analogy ….. hopefully it is taken well by said parties …. the grandparents of all us children Dr. L and Mrs. L
Adam,
Thank you but to quote Bruce Dern in “Middle Age Crazy” (1980),
“I don’t want to be the daddy…”
It’s one of those underrated but truly poignantly sad movies. Unfortunately, you can’t find it anywhere.
I think poison would be more Marcia’s style.
LE,
“I think poison would be more Marcia’s style.”
You got my number! 🙂 Older gentleman, lots of money, a little sprinkle of arsenic on the cereal every morning, over time … Marcia is tired of working and does not want ANY boss. 🙂
Adam,
What is it with you naming everyone Mother and Father? Ain’t nobody want those titles. 🙂
I’m not your aunt, either. I’m only a few years older than you.
Marcia,
Have you ever seen the 1987 movie, “Black Widow” with Debra Winger and Theresa Russell?
You don’t look anything like Theresa Rusell do you? She and Kathleen Turner were icons in the 80s.
Kathleen Turner once said that if she couldn’t get a man’s attention within 5 minutes of entering a room, the guy was gay.
LE,
“Have you ever seen the 1987 movie, “Black Widow” with Debra Winger and Theresa Russell?”
Yes.
“You don’t look anything like Theresa Russell do you?”
No. There’s no way at my age I look like Theresa Russell in her hey day. That’s an odd question.
“She and Kathleen Turner were icons in the 80s.”
I’m well aware of both. I’m not young. 🙂 There may be a few others on here old enough to remember them.
“Kathleen Turner once said that if she couldn’t get a man’s attention within 5 minutes of entering a room, the guy was gay.”
I believe it.
But … she got sick. She looks different now. That would do a number on any woman, but particularly one in Hollywood.
Marcia,
I wouldn’t expect you to look like Theresa Russell did in the 80s.
From the pictures I saw, she looks good today.
I was curious if there was a resemblance.
LE,
“From the pictures I saw, she looks good today.”
She does.
“I was curious if there was a resemblance.”
Is she one of your crush ladies? 🙂 No, I don’t look like her.
Marcia,
Theresa Russell was a crush at one time, like Kathleen Turner and Madeline Stowe were.
Sometimes, it wasn’t as much the looks as it was the roles. There was something about all of those women that I found really appealing.
I wanted to put this under Why do workplace crushes happen? But the comment section is unavailable.
To make a long story short, I have a coworker about my age that has been temporarily loaned to our department. He met my LO yesterday and he is now clearly smitten with her as well – Oops! I’m going to have to tell him about my spectacular experience that ended my last job. As for myself, I’m still in one piece and getting by just fine. I’ll keep you posted of any salacious details.
I know I might be a bit of an international pariah state right now, because I’m probably too outspoken in my views. However, no matter. There’s no hard feelings on my side. I still have some verbal goodies to share with the group:
@Allie.
You don’t need to incriminate yourself, my dear, if you’re feeling shy. However, are you and “Prefers to remain silent” the same person? If you are, I called it first. If you aren’t, I was never here and we never had this conversation. (Don’t worry if you are “Prefers to remain silent” – I’m sure everyone here still loves you). 🙂
@Bewitched.
It’s extraordinary to think you’d been here a few years, since we haven’t heard from you much until recently. I sometimes wonder what “quieter posters” really think of LwL goings-on. I also wonder what Dr. L thinks. For example, does Dr. L ever think: “Oh no. The inmates are running the asylum again! I don’t know what I’ll do about that…” I guess that’s why he implemented the coffeehouse? 😆
@Mila.
Word of the day. “Cookie duster.” A cookie duster is a moustache so luscious and so well-maintained it can brush the crumbs off the top of a biscuit. 🤣
@Marcia.
I said “cookie duster”, not “nookie duster”. Get your mind out of the gutter. 🙂
@Limerent Emeritus.
“But I needs it, I needs it.” Gollum, LOTR.
@Snowphoenix.
“Yup but nah but yup but nah but yup but nah. And anyways, she/he started it!” Vicky Pollard, Little Britain.
(Vicky could be the patron saint of every LO and every limerent struggling with indecision).
@Adam.
You’re just the loveliest man, you know that? Don’t stop being a gentleman – it’s nice. 🙂
@MJ.
Keep your shirt on, mate. There’s no need to carry on like a pork chop. If you do, someone might think you have kangaroos loose in the top paddock. And stop going off like a frog in a sock, too. It’s not bush week and we’re not here to catch spiders. Or are we? Bitta shush, please – an Australian is speaking. 😆😆😆
Sammy,
“A cookie duster is a moustache so luscious and so well-maintained it can brush the crumbs off the top of a biscuit. 🤣”
If there are crumbs on top of the biscuit, is it safe to assume the biscuit is a little crusty? 🙂
I am going to try to work the following phrase into conversation at work today
“Keep your shirt on, mate. There’s no need to carry on like a pork chop”
Followed by
“And stop going off like a frog in a sock, too.”
Then they are all going to be wondering where I met the amazing new Australian in my life 🙂
Snow,
“Can you be politely stoic outside and firmly Stoic inside while dealing with this sibling?”
I am doing better with the second bit than the first bit. Right now I see that as more positive than the opposite way round, but I’d like to strike more of a balance. Point of interest – LO thinks I should avoid my sibling for now, for my own good.
The situation with all that is very complex and more than I can explain properly here. My sibling has pressing immediate health needs and then longer term needs: the correct response to each is different.
“Could you term up with your SO to encounter him/her?”
Thank you for this well consideed suggestion. But my SO is one of the many people my sibling has pushed beyond their reasonable limits this past couple of years. Only blood relations seem to be hanging in there for them. And reasonably so. My biggest concern about it is for both my parents.
(Off topic of limerence) Question for anyone willing to answer- does BPD and/or narcissm run in families/ is it genetic? I have two fundamentally good parents and so I’m struggling to figure out how my sibling has turned out like this.
LA,
I don’t think there’s a definite answer. The literature indicates personality disorders can be intergenerational.
My accountant claimed to have been married to a clinically diagnosed psychopath, a Cluster B personality disorder in the same group as borderlines. She was deathly afraid that their son would become a psychopath. That was back in the mid-80s.
The old thinking was borderlines were made, not born. But, I have no idea what the current literature says on the subject.
If you do read up on things, look at the dates. You might want to compare older thinking with newer material.
LaR.
Your LO sounds right: If it’s possible to stay away from this sibling, then by all means, do it for a while since your parents are still around to help out.
It’s extremely hard to get any chronically ill person in a “right”/healthy mindset, such as consistent, moderate depression (which Mom had all her life, but her moods has got a lot better after taking a minor dose of MMRI her doctor prescribed for a better sleep).
With all unchangeable circumstances, we need to get hold of more Stoic tools, accepting that anything to do with that person or the situation is beyond our control, yet do whatever is health-wise needed accordingly. Take it as Fate, not anyone’s fault.
****
That Ultra Narcissist (I studied with) defines his kinsmen as —
“Narcissists were created from a genetic predisposition towards narcissism, allied with the lack of control in the environment…..
Narcissism arose during narcissists’ formation when we were children. It is designed and developed to defend our sense of insecurity and (consciously or unconsciously) drive us to constantly assert, maintain control and reject threat to it; it also seeks to gain fuel, to obtain character traits and residual benefits.
Narcissism is incurable — a baked cake unable to be unbaked! “
Not sure if a “genetic predisposition towards narcissism” means biological genes or something else; while the “lack of control in the environment” could be war, poor health, poverty, abusive caregivers, etc… Mom had a poor health when little, which might explain why she seems to be the only a narc in her family….
I hope you could find a “compromising” solution that would help keep a Stoic mind and its practices in you.
I had a terrible and sad dream last night about ET “ignoring” me, when we both returned to our old work for a temporary assignment, respectively. I was told he was working in Office xxx (which did not exist in my dream or in the reality of our old floor). It seemed that I spotted his tall figure from back once, but he did (or would) not stop in my temporary office to say Hi.
Later, I was eager to find him but could not locate the office xxx. I could sense his presence but unable to see it — a felt phantom walking around…
After waking up sadly, I questioned why that nonexistent office number…. Then I realized IT is the street number of my current apartment building….
Oh, “Man And His Symbols”! ♒️
That is a great question, Lim-a-rant! You may never get a satisfying answer. I like my son’s therapist’s theory about what causes personality disorders. It makes sense to me. You know how people debate about whether it was nurture or nature? He says that it is a third nature, a third nurture, and a third personal choice. I think one bad choice leads to another and if the person doesn’t choose to change course, they continue to get worse.
My sister had it in her to cause problems when she was little, but she had a lot of goodness in her, too. She chose to engage in antisocial behavior and every time it brought her closer and closer to where she is now. She lives in her own personal h_ll that she created. I wish it wasn’t like this.
I hope your brother doesn’t drag you down. Good luck, Lim-a-rant!
Lovisa,
Thanks for this very kind response.
You must be psychic – these issues are indeed with a brother, not a sister, but I thought I had successfully held that back by using ‘sibling’ and ‘they/them’ pronouns!
Following your earlier posts about it, I often wonder what’s been going on with your sister since you last mentioned it here, but I don’t like to push. I hope you and the family are doing OK with it all.
What you say about one third personal choice is a very helpful way to view it. Also this rings very true: “I think one bad choice leads to another and if the person doesn’t choose to change course, they continue to get worse”. This is exactly what has happened. It is like a tragi-comic TV programme which starts with someone veering a little off course and then they just dig themselves in deeper and deeper to cover their tracks.
It might not be BPD but it is certainly a medically diagnosable PD of some kind. Compulsive lying/invention/ fooling people is a big feature. He has managed to alienate literally everyone in his life apart from my parents, who are in their early 80s, getting a bit frail, but refuse to give up on him. They don’t know half of what I know about him and I choose not to tell them it.
I won’t let him drag me down – he has done before but I have set myself up stronger against that now. Thank you.
Snow,
“If it’s possible to stay away from this sibling, then by all means, do it for a while since your parents are still around to help out”
It’s a bit like my LE – it is within my gift to choose LC with him, but not NC! My parents are getting on and I worry how they’re the SOLE people (medical pros aside) holding him up. His therapist can only work with what he gives him – which won’t be the truth.
“We need to get hold of more Stoic tools, accepting that anything to do with that person or the situation is beyond our control, yet do whatever is health-wise needed accordingly”
This is all very wise counsel, thank you. I am being most Stoic about this situation at the moment – eg I accept it isn’t any of the family’s fault and that only he, not us, can motivate change in himself. If anything I wish I could find more compassion for him. SO can hardly believe how much I am seeming to ‘ignore’ the situation and protect myself. MFF has been extremely patient and good to me about this subject for a long while, but is one degree removed (never met him) whereas SO has had his dramas regularly rammed in her face. MFF is a strong NT thinker and comes at it from a logical and ‘self preservation’ (for me) side. When I key into the S, F perspectives on it (is this just another way of referring to the deities?!), it feels a lot lot more complicated. This is more the perspective that SO provides me with.
—
That dream of yours about ET has a lot of relatable elements to many dreams. The seeking/awareness of someone but not being able to quite see / find / reach them is really common. It probably reflects a lot of what you feel about ET now – still ‘around’ in your mind, out of reach for now but also not totally closed to reach if you wanted to (I know you don’t want to, I am just speculating where your mind might be). Very occasionally, I still have dreams like this about my LO2. It is no less than 23 years since I saw her. If you believe we all have a “one that got away”, then she’s that person for me.
LaR,
“My parents are getting on and I worry how they’re the SOLE people (medical pros aside) holding him up. His therapist can only work with what he gives him – which won’t be the truth.”
I’m afraid to say that you will have to mentally let go of how your brother is dealing with therapist, and let therapist works with his set of lies. It’s futile for you to be concerned. Meanwhile, I’d find some side ways to help your parents, if they’re willing to listen to you. Otherwise, let it go. Just feeling compassionate about them.
“If anything I wish I could find more compassion for him. SO can hardly believe how much I am seeming to ‘ignore’ the situation and protect myself. “
Can you see that from another angle, he did/does NOT choose to be where he was/is, suffering his medical conditions? Just like LE’s son? Letting go internally — not reacting to (nearly) impossibly controllable situations is not “ignoring” or selfish, it’s a sounding/wise way to take care of one’s own mental health. Stoic are not a bunch of selfish people sitting around, not taking vitreous, realistic actions to help others and themselves. Stoicism discipline is about building/wearing this internal emotional shield protecting one’s own mind, so as to able to deal with external stresses with concrete actions.
“When I key into the S, F perspectives on it (is this just another way of referring to the deities?!), it feels a lot lot more complicated. This is more the perspective that SO provides me with.”
When it comes to choice for whom we use our S,F, I, P sides, we need to use our T to judge and select. To Narcs, you can’t apply your I, S, F, P, but NT. For HSP or introverts, we need to let our T move back little. Your MFF sounds more rational, and SO empathic/sympathetic, am I right?
“That dream of yours about ET has a lot of relatable elements to many dreams. “
It’s so obvious, I marveled at that my Unconscious did not give more complicated images or narratives to interpret.
“The seeking/awareness of someone but not being able to quite see / find / reach them is really common. “
It IS inevitable considering it’s only five months, compared to 5 decades in another case here.
“It probably reflects a lot of what you feel about ET now – still ‘around’ in your mind, out of reach for now but also not totally closed to reach “
It’s like an indigestible object glued in your system causing no pain or joy anymore, but you just detect its existence yet unable to remove it. It’s not closed to reach, but reaching for what? What could I get, realistically or metaphorically in my situation? In this case, the Fate’s hand might have played beneficial role in a long run.
“if you wanted to (I know you don’t want to, I am just speculating where your mind might be).”
Oh, you’re wrong here, I very much want to, even just as a good friend of 7 years. But I know I can’t befriend him presently since my LE is not completely over with some residual anger and regrets. On the intellectual level, I annoyedly, clearly know ET is not the Phantom, on an emotional/subconscious level, I can’t take his vague, familiar face/mask (to what?) off the Phantom. When his realistic images occasionally popped into my head, I felt “fearfully” alienated.
“Very occasionally, I still have dreams like this about my LO2. It is no less than 23 years since I saw her. If you believe we all have a “one that got away”, then she’s that person for me. “
Your LO2 was available at the time, right? While you can say she’s “one that got away”, I can never say this — the only case in which LO was totally unavailable to begin with. My cptsd needs drove me deeper into the obsession, after initial big but calm Glimmer. Then, while the cptsd needs were gradually unloaded, the rest (instinctual drive?) surfaced from the LE swamp to breathe?
Regarding your discussion with Cordelia, it’s futile in my case to even nail down what ET ever felt and acted the way he did for the first 4 years of my LE. My strong imagination could will a favorite soothing “truth” (with all spoken or written evidence). However, in the reality, it does not make any difference in helping remove the indigestible object. My S, N, F, P do not bend over to T, I can’t will their “behavior” managed by the Unconscious.
It’s always helpful to vent out… gush, how I appreciate you LwL ghosts here… Let’s see what Time and Space would do to this case.
❄️,
“Meanwhile, I’d find some side ways to help your parents”
👍working on it
“Can you see that from another angle, he did/does NOT choose to be where he was/is, suffering his medical conditions?”
T can’t see what his story is, but F acknowledges ‘there must be some story there that he could make sense of to justify what he has done’. There is more I really can’t say for now, but stay tuned.
(Health warning dear silent readers, the next paragraph is total alphabet spaghetti if not party the the history of my dialogue with Snow, so is best ignored)
“Your MFF sounds more rational, and SO empathic/sympathetic, am I right?”
SO is all those things but can be pushed beyond it if she doesn’t get things in return that suit SF styles. It can be hard to get her to look past F and use T. MFF has instinctive NT responses but hides a very empathic F under it (I have access to it now, but it took a long time and much trust building).
“Oh, you’re wrong here, I very much want to, even just as a good friend of 7 years.”
Makes real sense, thanks for explaining more. Equally the phantom/mask bit makes sense. I think you can back your reasons for not reaching out with the situation as it is, even though it feels hard.
“Your LO2 was available at the time, right?”
On and off. I had a try and we had a couple of dates but no more. She had a few guys interested and to use MJ’s word, was ‘orbiting’ me. There was also an appropriacy problem where I was her boss at work. A year or so later when that wasn’t the case, she circled back and propositioned me. By then I had an SO so I refused the proposition with extreme difficulty.
“it’s futile in my case to even nail down what ET ever felt and acted the way he did for the first 4 years of my LE.”
Let me check I understand. Do you mean it would be futile for you to know *now*, after the event? Or would have been futile even if he’d told you *at the time*? And why does it only apply to the first four years, not all seven?
“It’s always helpful to vent out… gush, how I appreciate you LwL ghosts here…”
Yep, good to vent, bounce, riff and rant. I know I’m still quite stuck, but I’d certainly be stuck at an earlier and less helpful understanding of it all without LwL and all the many 👻👻👻👻 who give their time and wisdom. I honestly think if I hadn’t come here, I would have cracked and disclosed to MFF, and then goodness knows how it would have panned out.
LaR,
“T can’t see what his story is, but F acknowledges ‘there must be some story there that he could make sense of to justify what he has done’. “
Just to think these questions on your own: Has he got “satisfaction” for what he had done? Does he enjoy doing them? Or he has done what he did perhaps driven by his health conditions? I detected several times that Mom got some satisfaction (smirks on the corner of her mouth or in her cold eyes) or a sense of power after she made me lose my composure or argue with her with anger or agitation. But afterwards the narc insecurity still hung in her eyes. The only way to deal with a narc is to be stoic outside and Stoic inside.
“SO is all those things but can be pushed beyond it if she doesn’t get things in return that suit SF styles. It can be hard to get her to look past F and use T.”
Then accept what/who SO is and don’t expect too much T from her. On one cannot change another.
MFF has instinctive NT responses but hides a very empathic F under it (I have access to it now, but it took a long time and much trust building).
Sounds like you’ve got two “wives” compensating each other 😁
“Let me check I understand. Do you mean it would be futile for you to know *now*, after the event? Or would have been futile even if he’d told you *at the time*? “
Yes and Yes. In relationship department, I am not “here and now” type perhaps due to the past traumas; otherwise, I could have taken willing, fresh stallions as lunch or snack for my entire adulthood….
“And why does it only apply to the first four years, not all seven?”
After 4 years (after he complained in person that “we did not do anything” which really confused me at the time) , his own pet limerent (orLO) appeared along with his black lies (my T worked like Sherlock Holmes — also accurately spotted his other female ‘LE’ admirers at work). They went on regular rendezvous all the way until I left the job; but he still would not let me cut him off – kept saying he could offer me more and did try.
I hinted to him twice that I knew about his rendezvouses behind his SO (who had been also weekly “platonically helping” one of her old romantic flames for that guy’s psychological crisis/stress, which upset ET but he couldn’t stop it — he told me all these in person). He did not care about my knowledge, I certainly won’t report it to anyone else, except LwL ghosts for a spotlight on an infinite variety of human/Sensor conducts and natures…😉
My intuitive T clearly knew what ET was doing and thus resisted all the following temptations (Mila truthfully pointed out that I did not want to be a 2nd side 🐥, in addition to my own oath of decades), a satisfaction of which would bring much bigger emotional pains (not a stranger to me), I’m certain of it! Who wants the possible EA reciprocation — another 20 years of online LE “friendship”❓
ET is not the idealized, nonexistent Phantom, for whom I would break all my oaths and get lost in the Galaxy. But my F & P walk(ed) on their own path despite the strong, intuitive T —an incomprehensible human complexity.
I still hope that your MFF is NOT in LE with you; it’s a very painful spot to be in, which, as her true friend, you should really acknowledge and understand.
Snow,
“I still hope that your MFF is NOT in LE with you; it’s a very painful spot to be in, which, as her true friend, you should really acknowledge and understand.”
You are correct. It would be the best scenario for her (and by the by, for me) if that’s the case. I do understand and acknowledge that. I will come back to that below.
The intention of what I am about to write now is to use a melange of my LE, yours with ET, and Cordelia’s coach story, to think more theoretically about limerence – in particular where the limerent is married/partnered and the LO is not. It isn’t all meant to relate / apply to any one of those stories, more a case of thinking what can each of us draw on to be helpful. Every LE is different.
For the limerent in that situation, they are very conflicted. They are pulled towards the LO like a moth to a flame. And at the same time the moral compass starts speaking to tell them to pull away (maybe for the sake of their SO, LO and/or themselves). So the push-pull dance begins. Hera and Aphrodite are telling the limerent opposite things. They are literally fighting their neurobiology, as you have put it, which finds ways to leak out of the eyes anyway. The LO, if they are a Sensor type especially, will enjoy the attention and may join in the dance. The LO enjoying the attention (‘limerence as the LO’ as you have put it) is different to the LO being prepared to cross lines into EA or PA, or even feeling attracted to the limerent. But it may blur and some LOs may feel confused and conflicted. Or other LOs may be open to EA or PA with partnered limerent, if their own moral compass is set differently. So what we can get is two confused and conflicted people dancing around each other in a confused and conflicted way, with a different mood and strategy each day, that the other reacts to and in turn the other reacts to that, etc etc. All this until one or the other pulls back and slows or ends the dance, which can take several tries. The limerent usually created the situation initially, then the LO might or might not have added to it. Or, you can have a mutual LE where both people are in effect limerent and LO to the other. I think these are the very hardest to untangle. Summary: often in both people involved, there is an awful lot of conflict and chopping and changing.
It isn’t always bad for the involved parties – like you said, limerence gave you many often unexpected positive gains. I know there have been plusses for both MFF and I. I just don’t know what her negatives have been, admittedly.
I don’t know if there is anything there above that is suggestive to explaining or partly forgiving ET or other LOs behaviours, for your own wellbeing? If not, please don’t dwell – I was just riffing some thoughts to see if they could help. I accept it may not work.
With regard to me caring for MFF in our situation, I have lots of additional knowledge built over years, of her life and of her ‘tells’, that I haven’t shared on LwL, that I can and do use to help me make kind and wise decisions. She is a direct person and signals pretty clearly to me (verbally and not) times when she does want me around and times when she doesn’t. I am able to read and respond to both sets of signals. I can also ride out the cycles of that now, without letting it get to me too much – just see it as natural undulations and not dance around it. We’re in a good (and not dangerous like six months ago) place, but I am keeping very mindful and will make sure that is ‘mindful of her’, not only about how it affects me.
Sunday wishes through this ghostly cyberspace 🫂
LaR,
Your post is very valid, helping ease my J&T. Thank you. Based on your theory, I’m fairly certain that I’ve dealt with a Sensor, a mutual limerent, and a dodgy LO in a single Being, ET in the span of 7 years! Gosh, I so wished that I’d found LwL 3 earlier, when I casually heard the word “Limerence” in Youtube and watched one 10-minute video about it. I brushed it off quickly, thinking it was impossible for my “iron” J&T to be a limerent! Then, the rest has become a history….
I don’t feel/think it’s a matter of forgiving the other side, but myself for the weakness unable to walk away sooner (despite a sharp T, J), the inability to truly peel the ET facial mask off the Phantom (unexplainable F, P).
To survive well in my COO, one had to cultivate a lunatic kind of imagining ability and believe in one’s illusions, particularly when young, so to tolerant/endure the extremely oppressive, inhuman ideological environment. While this imagination power helped me survive my past traumas and heal cptsd in my painful LE, it also crippled me to sever the LE tie — imagined emotional intimacy with ET/Phantom was created and built, “realistic” and effective to the system for healing cptsd. That’s a kind of living “art”, invisible to the outside world, but my 👁️ could see it and may being has benefited from it.
That’s how many masterpiece writings, paintings, sculptures and music have come into existence and fruited (throughout the history), probably dabbed or soaked with blood underneath. One does not want to smash art pieces, but needs to integrate them into one’s reality, which then lies the huge challenge…
I wish I could forget more easily, so as not to swing between two dominant modes — either in regret and resentment or burst out poetic phrases/lines with the Phantom surging in my head….
Typo:
3 years earlier
“My being has…”, not “May being…”
I’m not exactly sure what I missed here or for that matter was bantering on about. I thought the only Aussies I communicate with here are Cordelia and Grego.
Believe me though, there are plenty of Kangaroos loose in my top paddock. There has to be, otherwise how could I put up with all of you limerent fools?? 🤣🤣🤣
I have some experience with Australians but not much. I’ve never been there. There was a chance they might send me there for a few weeks on business but it didn’t come off.
When my wife and I went on a tour of Europe in 1990, half the bus were Australians. They were a hoot to travel with. One of them, who worked for the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, said that anything I, as an American, needed to know about Australians I could learn from listening to “Tie Me Kangaroo Down, Sport” – Rolf Harris (1960), “Waltzing Matilda” and watching the “Crocodile Dundee” movies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEkLy7A37T0
I was familiar with the songs. “Tie Me Kangaroo Down” was the first 45 record I remember listening to as a child. I was 4 yrs old. As a WWII Navy vet in the Pacific, my father knew “Waltzing Matilda” and would sing what he remembered in the bathroom.
One night on the tour, a bunch of us sat in the courtyard of a hotel in Germany getting wasted and sang them along with other Australian favorites. The chorus of “Waltzing Matilda” was the only other song I knew. When it came to drinking, I couldn’t keep up anywhere near them.
Last year, my wife and I took a Viking river cruise for our 35th anniversary. There were a sizeable number of Australians on the the ship. Things hadn’t changed much. They were still a hoot to party with.
In 1981, there was an Australian waitress at the Old Ocean Beach Cafe outside San Diego. Think Elle McPherson. One look at her and if she’d asked me to jump ship and run away with her, I might have thought about it for a second or two.
Two more Australia stories…
My uncle lived for about 10 years in Frankston, Victoria, during the 70s while working for a US company. Nasty critters not withstanding, he liked Australia.
My aunt told the story that one morning she went outside to work in the garden. She would hang their pet bird’s cage on the porch. She went inside to get something and when she came out, there was a 5ft Tiger snake [apparently large as Tiger snakes go] at the base of the steps, staring at the bird. She called somebody and they got rid of the snake.
My uncle said that Australians were mesmerized by the Watergate hearings. He said Australians couldn’t get enough of the news on it. His coworkers loved to bust his chops about how American politicians were a bunch of corrupt crooks. [a not entirely inaccurate observation]
One day, my uncle asked one of them how long his coworker’s family had been in Australia. His coworker said over 150 years. My uncle asked if they were prisoners or guards.
I thought hard for a while, but I cannot think of any person with such a moustache, although it seems to be „Movember“. But I’ll store it in the back of my mind. Don’t like moustaches, though.
“are you and “Prefers to remain silent” the same person?”
No.
I could not help feel it’s Dr L’s voice…
I genuinely feel like there is so much wrong with me it can never be fixed.
I am nearly 40, and have been single my entire life. I have had 2 LO’s in my life. They are both the same gender as me. I actually don’t know my sexuality as I’ve never had an actual relationship. I’ve never felt any attraction to anyone other than my LOs.
My current LO is my psychiatrist…I feel it is more than the more common transference issues with a psychiatrist/therapist. I think about her constantly and in a sexual way too. She is an excellent psychiatrist. Objectively as well as subjectively. I know some of her other patients and they all think she’s great (but not to the extent that I do). I also get jealous she obviously has other patients and that she’s nice to everyone not just me.
My life is empty, I don’t know who I am, I think I have BPD amongst a truckload of other severe mental illnesses. Everything feels insurmountable and it feels easier for me to just die.
Dear Kiki,
I wanted to reply to say that you sound as though you are in a very dark place. I hope you are speaking with someone, a friend, about what you’ve just said here. It will not be easier for you to just die, please know that is not the answer. The feelings you describe are only temporary. Limerence sucks but it is temporary. I felt terrible for a long time but I did get through it and you can too.
Someone in real life can help you more than us lot can, although we will try, you need to draw on more than one source of help and support right now. If you feel limerent for your psychiatrist, she will not be able to help, because your feeling will be too amped up around her. Is there a friend or family member that you can go to instead?
Romantic relationships are a hard nut to crack, I think most people would agree. Dont do yourself down over that.
Dear Kiki,
I am so sorry you are going through this. I want you to feel better. Since you say that you are having feelings for people your own gender, your psychiatrist included, you may want to consider getting a psychiatrist who is a male and working with him on these things. Perhaps that way you won’t be as distracted/limerent? And he can help you. Are you taking any medication? What you are going through sounds a lot like depression because I too have depression and know what it feels like to feel “empty.” I want you to know you are not alone and we are hear to help you and listen to you. As a medical professional and a recovering limerent myself, I want you to know there is help out there. Please don’t give up. Let’s try everything and see if there’s something out there that can help you! 💙