Another month has rolled around, and so it’s time for another trip to the LwL coffeehouse.
This time, I’m delighted to share a discussion I had with trauma specialist, limerence counsellor, and friend of the blog, Fenna van den Berg:
We talk about attachment wounds, inherited trauma, purposeful living, and how to find a therapist for limerence recovery.
One of the topics that came up was addiction – how to define it and how to treat it. I recently posted a blog post about this topic at Psychology Today, which goes into more detail about what behavioural addictions are and how they are assessed.
Enjoy!
Thank you for introducing me to Fenna. I have been watching her videos for a few months now, and they are wonderful.
Having said that, I have had a backslide and am starting over with No Contact.
My resolve is shaky, and I am irritated with myself.
I thought I was doing so well.
Take care Norma. NC is impossible for me – a colleague of nearly 20 years, who I’ve wanted for at least 15, despite a lovely SO.
My employer is arranging counselling, so on that front I am incredibly fortunate I suppose. I recently disclosed to two incredibly supportive colleagues and I feel like they will also be a part of this journey – as long as I ration the weepy vents.
To Phil:
Thank you for that reply. Our situations are so very different. I am glad you are getting the support you need.
I have not had counseling for this yet; I am debating it. However, LO will be moving to the other side of the country soon, and he is terrible about keeping in touch, which hopefully will turn out to be a blessing.
Yes, once I posted I wasn’t sure I was actually saying anything remotely helpful. Sorry. All I can say, in solidarity, is that I’m really, really struggling too right now.
Sending positive thoughts to you.
To Phil:
You are more than “remotely” helpful. Please don’t sell yourself short. Your words warm my heart.
Phil,
15 years?! How in all tarnation did you hold it together (within your own head, and with your LO in a professional sense) for 15 long years? I was absolutely cooked after 2 years of doing that (and the circumstances of mine sound pretty similar to yours, from bits I have read of yours).
I am glad you found people you were able to tell, that they were supportive, and that you’re getting the help to get past it. I know the dread and pain that these things can bring on once you’re past the euphoria part.
I know! It’s insane really. Obviously the classic ‘uncertainty and hope’ fantasy was at the heart of it. A handful of ‘moments’ over that time to keep the fire burning, and possibly the oddest element of all – the almost entire absence of a significant other in her life during that time.
So I convinced myself that we were great friends (and we have been genuinely close) but friends where something could theoretically develop if barriers were removed.
The situation is now different of course – she finally has an SO and she appears to be very happy. So the bottom has fallen out of my (brain’s) world and the scales have fallen from my eyes.
Before it was all just a warm reverie… now it’s the purgatory of grief for the loss of something important, but ultimately meaningless.
It’s truly upsetting because she *does* see me as an important friend – but I have to put myself first.
Hi Phil,
By these ‘moments’, do you mean the attraction between the two of you being openly acknowledged somehow? (If so, verbally, physically or both?). No need to answer if getting into it is too triggering.
Just interested because my LE was held in a similar stasis for those two years, but without open acknowledgement (just visible in attention, body language, leakage, ‘acts of kindness’ etc, both ways round). But then at the slightest hint of a discussion that acknowledged it, we both ended up backing off. It was a good thing as it reset it into a new and less intense state.
“It’s truly upsetting because she *does* see me as an important friend”
I really get this. Not everyone on here agrees with me, but there can be very real friendship under / beside / gnarled up with limerence. Do you think you can ever get any of the friendship back, or do you have to accept it’s done, and ‘grieve’ that?
“but I have to put myself first.”
What does that putting yourself first look like – NC / LC?
Only answer what you want, Phil. Your story of how she has finally got an SO is a bit ‘canary in the coalmine’ for something I’ll have to deal with one day, hence my interest in it. Your story is telling me to get even more distance from my ‘limerence flavoured friend’ (LFF) before that happens. Thanks for sharing bits on here.
I hope this reply pops up in the right place!
Your Qs are fine of course. The moments (I’m afraid to say) have been drunken kisses on work social occasions. But so few over so many years to render them next to meaningless and without any real pattern.
But that being said, it is these moments which fueled the belief that we had something special, if not fully consumatable (word??) because of the barriers. A back up option? Perhaps to me but probably not for her.
I think she just enjoyed both the attention and the energy my limerent state would bring to our interactions.
And after so long it’s like we became institutionalized – a ‘normal’ that actually wasn’t sustainable and was bound to collapse at some point.
I just never actually imagined her being with someone and it absolutely poleaxed me in a way I never imagined.
But what else was going to happen? We were never going to be together, no matter what.
We’re six weeks in to this new normal and the pain is still incredibly raw. My hand is forced and I MUST MUST MUST deal with this head on. NC is impossible, LC is agony… but essential.
Advice? Be prepared. Be ready. Take steps NOW to protect yourself.
It’s critically important.
Phil,
I relate to so much of what you say. I think we limerents just get addicted to a status quo, even with no intention to harm our existing relationships. We get good at storytelling to ourselves and at juggling. And we (well I, anyway) rationally wouldn’t – and have no right to – begrudge the LO a happy relationship (one we can’t offer them anyway). And yet … if only limerence were that rational, right?!
I take your point in good faith that it is crucial to take action to prepare for the event of LO ‘coupling’. I am not sure how possible it is to pretrain the rational brain to accept such an event before it becomes a reality. So I take it you mean by the preparation, more concrete action to end the LE (low contact, lower intensity and nature of contact, etc?). Given your time again, is that roughly what you’d do?
Kudos for grasping it and sticking to your course now, painful as it sounds. The really intense phase of my LE ended earlier this year with the backing off bit I described in my last post. It is now much lower level ’embers’ but I know they could reignite. In the distancing bit I had really pronounced lethargy and fatigue. It started to lift after about 3 months. Everyone’s different, but this bit will eventually pass for you too, if you hold the course.
Thank you for articulating that so well. Gently backing away is key I think and not ruminating if at all possible?
Personally it’s all come to late for me and despite my grown up words I’m a hot mess at the moment.
I just wish I’d realised how this would crush me sooner. That’s all I can offer you – the benefit of that experience as a cautionary take.
Hi LaR and Phil,
„ And we (well I, anyway) rationally wouldn’t – and have no right to – begrudge the LO a happy relationship (one we can’t offer them anyway).“
I might have written it to Phil before, I think that’s the way to go, to appeal to your better self. Limerence is, even though it seems to be all about another person, in its essence utterly selfish. If we really respect and love that other person, we should be ok with them being happy. Of course our pain is still understandable and real, but maybe it helps to see that it’s a good thing that happened to this person we cherish so much, that it actually should be this way and is the best for everyone, even though it might hurt at first. Do we really want to be that person who puts their own disappointment that validation for themselves won’t happen anymore, above the happiness of LO to which they have every right?
I know I‘m preaching, and I‘m the first person who would flounder here😅.
But I once had an LO who had been single and then got an SO. I fared best when I got into this spirit or at least behaved like I was.
Maybe it helped back then that I felt he still valued my friendship and opinion and, unfortunately, even that she was kind of jealous of me🙈…
But still, the whole episode also helped me to distance myself a bit from limerence.
Now he‘s got another SO and a baby, and I‘m truly over it and happy for both of them.
Maybe it helps to sometimes look at the bigger picture that it’s actually a good thing that happened .
Also, the other point I also already wrote is: realistically, the curve of the LE has had its zenith already. The heady feeling of reciprocation, the kisses, there’s nothing that could happen that’s better. Anything happening more than that would burden your conscience, get your life into a mess etc. Since you won’t leave your family for her, this is the most you can get from it, you‘ve had it and now it only would go downward.
So it’s time to let go and appreciate what has been, but let her move forward.
Hi Mila,
“Do we really want to be that person who puts their own disappointment that validation for themselves won’t happen anymore, above the happiness of LO to which they have every right?”
That’s brilliantly put. And no, of course we don’t. It’s kind of what I was trying to say to Phil yesterday, and I think he gets it too.
I’m glad you could sort of get in that spirit with your ex LO and retain a friendship and even be pleased for him, even if it meant wading through a few piles of treacle to get there first.
“I know I‘m preaching, and I‘m the first person who would flounder here😅.
It doesn’t sound preachy. And you’d flounder – as we all would – because *limerence isn’t rational!!*. The question you posed above (that I quoted) is one that appeals to the rational brain for the obvious answer (‘No!’). But then the emotional brain can fly off in all its own directions, and pull all reason down with it …
My feeling is that it the strategy is all about how we can persuade *both* our rational and emotional brains to move away from ‘holding on’ to the LO. And I think (and Phil’s story reinforces) that to be most effective, that work needs doing *before* the event of them coupling.
And Phil – I know that the above will all sound like ‘wise after the event’ stuff to you, and I hear you that you feel like a hot mess. All I can really say is that a lot of people here understand if you need to vent out any frustration at the situation at any point. Sending strength.
Hi LAR and Phil,
of course it’s a bit smug to go all „see I managed it“ afterwards, while being a hot mess myself during LE.
I just think it might help to see a bigger perspective sometimes, even if we don’t manage to get there right now.
Also, for me it was a kind of – not consolation, but something I could hold onto, to behave and think correctly and think „at least I can hold my head up high“.
Which didn’t prevent me from having much baser thoughts like „she‘s not that beautiful or smart. If THAT‘s his taste,then I judged him wrong“ and trying to get out of limerence by these mean thoughts. Well, anything that helps us through the night?
And then, I managed that with LO2, but maybe only because he moved away and I transferred to someone else. I would like to say I would have managed it anyway at some point (and with this lovely guy it might have been possible), but things would have gotten much more messy before, I‘m afraid.
So, I‘m not holy about it , I just think to have a rough guideline how we SHOULD think isn’t wrong. It does help, or it helped me at least.
Just to clarify, I didn’t think mean thoughts about his current SO, only a bit about the SO he got while I was limerent. His current SO finds my utter approval- beautiful, smart and all.;)
Dear Phil & all,
I am very interested in your discussions with LaR and Mila and so I hope you won’t mind an interjection from me. The point Mila made that about appealing to your better self is a very good one. If you really value someone, and it you have a ‘good’ LO, this is the right thing to do. However, as LaR very helpfully points out, appealing to your ‘executive’ brain can be difficult when your lim-brain / emotions have precedence in the heat of limerence. The thing that I found helpful for uniting the “two brains of limerence”, and being of pragmatic help in getting out of the hot mess phase of LC, was trying to make a start on bettering myself. Limerence happened because of gaps I had in my life, things that I could not see my way around, for whatever reason. So it just allowed me to self-medicate in the absence of taking some concrete action on my own stuff, I don’t mean marriage issues, etc., I mean myself and my own issues. Those were things such as not liking who I was anymore after getting subsumed into working 25/7, feeling like personal ties and relationships were getting in the way of career ambition, etc. (things that are not very edifying to admit). I also had some traumatic family problems. Limerence became a placeholder to avoid facing those issues and getting validation from someone who essentially allowed me to avoid engaging in my real life, substituting that for a fantasy life. Like you, I never intended to actually leave my SO in order to pursue LO, that was just a fantasy. Also, my LE went on for 5 years or so. Ages.
Everyone’s issues will be different but I do believe that I only started getting better from limerence once I tried being the best version of myself (in my midlife) that I could be. That meant working out what my priorities were, what the gaps were, addressing them. The pain of LC was somewhat nullified by the gains of working on myself and seeing the rewards from taking that action. I do hope that you are not feeling too awful in your ongoing LC attempts, Phil. Feeling very bad may require some short-term gains such as focusing on habits you enjoy, or (depending on how you are wired), getting out of the routine to do something fun for yourself.
“working 25/7” 😂
I meant “24/7”
– if only there were 25 hours in a day, I’d spend the extra one reading more here on LwL….😂
Interesting chat 😊
Bewitched, as ever, you truly have a way of saying things so well and articulately
I have caught another little break from the LE embers at the moment. So it is a helpful time to be reminded of the need to work on oneSELF – and not just on *understanding* what in the self caused the LE, but also on small tangible *actions* that can be taken to be a better version of the self now.
Mila – for clarification’s sake, I didn’t mean to imply you were wrong or smug for the point you made. I appreciated your input. It was more than I felt a bit bad myself for plying Phil for ‘avoiding the worst’ suggestions when he is really in the thick of dealing with his own stuff. One foot in front of the other, Phil, and this should all start to improve.
Hi LaR,
Glad my musings were helpful 😂
I think maybe I got lucky in making self improvements – some (not all) were actually initiated by trying to be better for LO (eek!). It just so happened that they were also things that I needed to do anyway, and in doing them I felt better about myself. LO also distracted me from working all the time and by the time I had started recovering from limerence, I had the perspective about work that I needed. – No one needs to drink the Kool Aid to the extent that I was at the time. Don’t get me wrong, I still work hard, very hard, but work is just work nowadays. But that was my Achilles Heel and it will be different for everyone.
For me, limerence opened my mind to possibilities that I could not otherwise see and distracted me from some of my bad habits…
Good luck with spotting yours.
Bx
Thank you all. Even though I don’t know you, I feel the care, empathy and thoughtfulness of your kind words.
One foot in front of the other as you say… but so many years of what felt like genuine friendship has suddenly ended and the pain of this grief doesn’t feel like it’s loosening it’s grip any time soon.
She deserves happiness of course. But there is a dark hole that she used to fill and I must now work out how I go about replacing the feelings, the buzz, the rush that she created.
It cannot be the case that she was the pilot light all along. That mustn’t be true.
Therapy soon hopefully.
Phil,
“It cannot be the case that she was the pilot light all along. That mustn’t be true.”
No, she isn’t. The LO is always lighting *something within us*, so it is about interrogating what that something is, how she lit it, and how else you can light it or keep it alight. Even if that is just things like (as it was for me) a need for more spontaneity, a need to work less hard, and to channel my energy better (invest in quality rather than quantity of friendships). Some of that – the work part – is also what Bewitched is getting at in her replies.
Bewitched,
Without us saying anything remotely revealing, I think we both probably work in fields that run on a principle of sucking conscientious staff dry, if we (as the staff) let that happen (if we are willing players in that game – as many indeed are). Also, fields where the mantra is ‘want something doing? Ask a busy person!’.
In my field, the covid pandemic and its aftermath only made all that worse. The busy got busier and the loafers loafed more.
I am with you in thinking that improving my work- life balance could tap at some of the stuff that made me vulnerable to the LE, possibly to future ones too if I don’t act upon this strong signal of a need for change.
So I’m interested – when you pulled back for the sake of balance – made work less ‘be all and end all’ – how was that for you? How did you cope, in a work sense, with putting in a lesser level of hours and mental commitment? Did others seem to notice it and did you feel constantly behind with stuff at work at first? I find people who work over their hours create expectations for both themselves and others that are then hard to shift.
I think you were right to take those steps and I have taken first tentative steps with it for myself too. I have really prioritised stuff outside work for the last few months, but now feel horribly behind and am grappling with those sort of questions I asked above.
I also think the LE propelled me for ages into a falsely unrealistic energy for and commitment to work (hey, anything to do something impressive in front of LO 😅. So it is like there is an initial adjustment down for that no longer being the case (now largely done), and then a second adjustment to get the already high pre-LE level of work down to a better balance.
Would value your thoughts – or those of others if they have them 😊
Hi LaR, Phil, Bewitched,
„the feelings, the buzz, the rush that she created.
It cannot be the case that she was the pilot light all along. That mustn’t be true.“
The thing is, it’s not her who created it, it was all you. These are your feelings, it was your doing. Might be she was your pilot light during last months, but only because you or something inside of you chose her to be it.
I‘m not saying that to blame, I want to show you that you are indeed not a helpless toy of fate or of her, but the understanding that limerence happens inside of you and not because she inflicted it on you, gives you the power back, it empowers you to change something about that.
LAR, I didn’t feel criticized by you, I criticized myself, I think I was a bit too much.
Bewitched, what did you change for LO? Don’t answer it if it’s too revealing.
Me, I suffer from complete lack of energy and motivation at the moment, don’t know if it’s hormones or the weather or some after-shock of limerence, and don’t know how to get back in the saddle somehow. I do exercise, but it seems just another exhausting thing, for example.
My XLO will call in the next minutes and I feel a bit of the old reluctance, I don’t really want to speak to him. Especially since I’ll see him anyway in a couple of days. I‘m not as far out of it all as I am with LO2, or I had a bit too many negative moments with him now.
I do wonder sometimes if my freedom of limerence has got something to do with this new lack of enthusiasm for life. Like, either I suddenly lack the energy/hormones for it in this phase of life, or the other way round, I relied too much on limerence to make me feel alive and now that it’s gone I don’t know where to get that feeling. I suspect a bit of both is involved, but large part of it hasn’t to do with limerence, probably. I do blame aging and hormones, and also empty battery at the end of season.
So I had my little rant Imho-style hidden in a comment..
I hope you‘ll find a way out of the worst soon, Phil! There is light at the end of the tunnel.
Thank you Mila – you speak so much sense. I know it is all on me. To accept, to move forward and to resolve x
Phil,
while it is true, it’s not a straight path. Sometimes it’s necessary to rant and blame and not be absolutely correct all the time, as long as we don’t lose the truth out of sight.
It was necessary for me to concentrate on negative traits of my LOs so as to get some emotional distance, and I haven’t been fair to them for sure, but mostly in my mind. I haven’t acted out my necessary resentment too much on them, I think and hope.
Still, I needed sometimes some immature thoughts or bouts of anger, or egotism.
I just want to say, it’s not humanly feasible to be morally correct or fair all the time, and sometimes it’s liberating not to be. It’s just important to not forget that it’s all a phase and not to lose the goal out of sight- to get out of the valley mostly unscathed with integrity and self-esteem intact.
Dear LaR & Mila
“So I’m interested – when you pulled back for the sake of balance – made work less ‘be all and end all’ – how was that for you? How did you cope, in a work sense, with putting in a lesser level of hours and mental commitment? Did others seem to notice it and did you feel constantly behind with stuff at work at first? I find people who work over their hours create expectations for both themselves and others that are then hard to shift.”
Yes to all of the above, unfortunately. Others did notice. That’s why I needed to sacrifice further promotion in my careerpath. Once I decided that was no longer worth what was being asked in terms of hours over my contract, they no longer had that stick to beat me with. The second thing was more positively choosing aspects of the job that were important to me, in terms of being my best version of me. There were aspects that spoke more to that, so I focus more on those, as well as only working closely with people I like. I am fortunate to be reasonably autonomous and have choices (though they come with strings attached in terms of promotion, more pay, and retiring less early!).
Mila, i totally get what you mean about that post-limerence lack of lustre in life. Limerence gave me an energy I couldnt believe and thats very hard to replace. Its why working out your underlying weaknesses / gaps / triggers and addressing them is so key. I needed validation and got it from LO. Somehow it didnt matter that SO already gave me plenty validation too, I needed more. It was probably a midlife and hormones thing. LO made me feel super-attractive. But in addition he was very distracting to me at a time when my real life was filled with worry and stress. The two tiggers / gaps there are probably a bit contradictory but somehow working on myself physically (“what did you do for LO?”) and working on myself interpersonally (being more available for people in my life) addressed both. I think maybe I got lucky. …
I am convinced that limerent energy does need to be replaced by something else that you’ve got a strong motivation to do. Working out what that motivation is seems to be the key? Any goal or any aspect of a goal that fires you up, I guess. But that needs a bit of time and space to spot, perhaps. I dont think it needs to be major, though, just enough to provide a bit of a boost?
Bewitched – you speak a lot of wisdom when you talk about fixing things in oneself. I feel as though I’ve concentrated on fixing things with my SO and he has achieved an extraordinary amount of fixing things in himself, even though he doesn’t know what triggered me to ask him to do so! Also, the strange circumstances (Covid) that led to my LE starting are thankfully long gone. But I probably still need to think about what things I need to fix in myself and not just continue to blame external factors. That’s harder.
Phil, I’m a bit disturbed by “I must now work out how I go about replacing the feelings, the buzz, the rush that she created.”
One reason that limerence is so hard to get out of is that there is no replacement for that buzz. It’s a kind of madness that creates both happiness and despair far more intense than normal emotions. We put up with the terrible lows in order to seek the incredible highs and the combination of the two make us feel more alive. They dazzle us, making us blind to normal emotions. In order to recover we need to embrace the subtlety of normal emotions and not chase the extremes that we’ve experienced in the throes of limerence. Once you’re in recovery you will find that you can experience happiness without the intensity that limerence provides and it’s different but nicer.
Bewitched, Mila, thank you as ever for the ideas and wisdom you’ve provided from different angles here. B – sorry to hear you had to sacrifice career paths but it still sounds better for you on balance). I always feel a bit cleansed and better about working through the phases of my LE after talking with you two – and less guilty.
☁️ – I think you’re right. Not many limmies would want to replace the highs and lows of limerece (well preferably perhaps the highs) at the same level! I think if we can figure out how to get a more metered dose of whatever gives the highs, minus the LO’s part in that (crucially), it might help us not go chasing the more exhilirating highs of an LE out of a feeling of lack. A few (non LO) flavoured chocolates occasionally to save eating a whole box in a binge?
☁️,
For clarity – i don’t mean those chocolates should be anything remotely extra marital! I meant finding ways to get whatever else can give us joy (and a lack of which may have turned us to limerence in the first place) and eliminating the things that don’t, in a sensible way … a bit like I said to Phil earlier.
„In order to recover we need to embrace the subtlety of normal emotions and not chase the extremes that we’ve experienced in the throes of limerence. Once you’re in recovery you will find that you can experience happiness without the intensity that limerence provides and it’s different but nicer.“
Interesting, compared to Bewitcheds comment. Bewitched, do you agree, I mean- do you think I need to find something that gives me the same intensity/energy, or would you back ☁️ that same intensity isn’t possible and it’s crucial to learn to appreciate more subtle joys?
At the moment I‘m not motivated to anything. Things that gave me joy/pleasure seem to have dulled. I even googled anhedonia and light depression. For now, I’m very tired and will sleep. (Texted XLO that I’m too tired and we see each other anyway)
I hope this phase will pass, I don’t like it. I think it’s something physical, I blame the dark hormones.
*not „dark“. Autocorrect won’t let me swear.
*and the question about possible „replacement“ is also for LaR, of course, I spotted your comments too late.
“Phil, I’m a bit disturbed by “I must now work out how I go about replacing the feelings, the buzz, the rush that she created.”
Yes, fair point. More ‘work through’ than directly replace. I don’t want a different fix!
Mila,
Most men – me included – learn early on that we are not qualified to talk about dark hormones’ … let alone blame anything on them 😰 I will leave that part to people who can talk through lived experience!
In more comfortable territory … I skimmed one of your earlier messages and didn’t take it all in, and thought about suggesting that the void caused by being out of limerence (even if still a relief / triumph) could be causing some of the lethargy. Then I saw you’d already identified it. That chimes with my experience (not claiming I’m out totally, but I was exhausted as I squashed the hope out of it as you’ll remember – I felt depressed in that phase).
I will flip something you kindly said to me back on you – get a health checkup if you’re unsure, to make sure there is no physical cause. But I’d wager it could be the LE void plus the fact you’ve been working incredibly hard and probably need a break (and of course those dratted dark hormones).
High intensity or low intensity cure? I’d go for lower intensity with reduced highs and lows. I found it was useful just to appreciate the simpler things in life – to kind of accept that I had to lower the pace a bit. Once I got more Ok with that instead of fighting it, the lethargy started to lift.
I threw myself into some garden and home improvement projects. These forced me to put my mind on different things but had pleasing and tangible end results. SO and I also had some weekends away.
Some on here have said they needed to make spaces for new people and interests, but personally I had too much of that going on anyway (too many demands on time), so I needed to cut back on that, not increase. I did take up a new sport (although not obsessively!) once I was a bit further down the road of having energy back.
I have spent much less time with MFF too, so as I don’t get back on the dopamine train. I have had wobbles with that where I had to spend more time with her, but that has been less often and less intense than it was.
LaR, personally I’m going for actual dark chocolate. Nothing can replace the snap sound when you break a piece off, or the feeling of it melting on your tongue, or the rich darkness and sweetness of the flavour. Sorry SO and LO.
☁️,
That sounds so delicious you should probably eat the whole bar. Or melt it and put it on a crepe. I won’t judge 🙂
Hi LaR,
thanks for detailing how you dealt with your low phase.
I recently had a blood test anyway, iron an Vitamin D seems a bit low, but actually it has been always low in all blood tests for the last 29 years I guess. I take supplements now, but I don’t think that the cause lies there.
I thought the answer would be to do more exercise, signed up for the gym and I go regularly, but it doesn’t seem to help. I planned on running on days between gym, but I’m simply too tired in the mornings now.
I think the dark hormones are playing up, plus some sort of midlife change- I finally get to get old, maybe? Time to shift priorities?
I worked a lot but am not sure that’s the reason. Normally I enjoy my work but now I really want the season to end.
Not sure either if there’s LE aftermath involved or not. Sometimes I think I blame too much on limerence, sometimes I think I‘m in denial how much fantasy XLO meant to me (as opposed to real XLO). I will see him tomorrow but haven’t got much energy for it.
I would like to have the energy to throw myself into home improvement, exercise or whatever, but nothing seems appealing.
I‘ll go small steps now, one day after the other until holidays come up, it’s not that long any more.
Thanks for letting me whine.
☁️,
Dark chocolate, there we are again! Marcia and me are fans. She‘ll recommend Hu. I‘m on another continent, so I don’t have access to that.
Unfortunately I tend to replace limerence by sweet addiction, which isn’t healthy, but my sweet intake has a direct relation to either limerence going a bad way or, apparently, not being limerent.
Dear Mila,
“Interesting, compared to Bewitcheds comment. Bewitched, do you agree, I mean- do you think I need to find something that gives me the same intensity/energy, or would you back ☁️ that same intensity isn’t possible and it’s crucial to learn to appreciate more subtle joys?
At the moment I‘m not motivated to anything. Things that gave me joy/pleasure seem to have dulled. I even googled anhedonia and light depression. For now, I’m very tired and will sleep. (Texted XLO that I’m too tired and we see each other anyway)
I hope this phase will pass, I don’t like it. I think it’s something physical, I blame the dark hormones.”
In answer to your first question, I think intensity/energy is so limerence-associated that those heady days are gone, unfortunately, since they are just a side-effect of the limerent condition. When I am missing those highs, I always remind myself of how low the limerence lows were. Also remembering that the highs progressively disappear out of view in the late stages so that only the lows are left. My nowadays recovery is certainly made up of lower ‘highs’, if you get me? Those are really just small gains and wins that make me feel happier about where I am in my life, like I mentioned in detail before.
Mila, as you’ve been post-limerent for a while, I do think that its possible that dark hormones are in play, even just the beginnings of that. I am a few years older than you, every woman my age went through something and this ranged from inexplicable anger/depression to sleep deprivation, losing one’s mind memory-wise, very heavy periods, low mood, etc. Women had it better or worse but I am not sure anyone escaped. The great thing being its treatable. Anyway, the reason I say this is to maybe keep an eye on how you’re feeling – symptoms totally crept up on me and I could not see the wood for the trees / spot them for the longest time. In my experience, the symptoms showed up way before the actual hormone level in the blood indicate menopause – I was having symptoms way before, years before. If you notice anything, you can then mention them to your doc. The great thing is that hrt is available for all of that. You might be in the foothills of that, which may affect mood *and* you also may be tired from the LE, tired from working and in need of your annual leave, etc.
Giving yourself a break may help? I am glad you postponed xLO.
More things that make Mila happy, short term gains, while you figure this out are prescribed!
Take care,
Bx
Hi Bewitched,
Thanks for the thoughtful message! I‘m indeed in the foothills of perimenopause, and I take some progesterone for 10 days during the cycle because my periods started to be unpredictable. I felt better with it in the beginning but not so sure if it helps much at the moment. It regulated the periods in any case.
Hormones are definitely playing up, and I do ruminate about their power to change a person‘s view of the world or even character, don’t you think? It’s scary.
If it gets worse or repeats every cycle, I’ll consult my gynecologist again.
Short term gains that make me happy? Unfortunately I turned to sweets and caffeine for that. Which makes everything worse, I gather.
Thanks for explaining about the highs and lows. I think it makes sense. What I miss is the excited feeling of being alive. As I recall, I could have that without limerence in the past, but since my LEs this feeling seems to have attached itself to limerence.
I would like to get it back without this dreary limerent stuff..
At the moment I‘m far from it but I hope very much that all is going to be better once I can have a bit of rest.
XLO will visit tomorrow, by the way. I cannot be bothered to ruminate about that, so that’s fine.
Thank you Bewitched, it’s good to hear that other women go through it too, although of course I know that. I‘m the person who googles everything and buys books before I’m actually in perimenopause, so I do know a bit about it, but it’s still so valuable to hear real people talk about their own experiences.
As a 54 year old man with a wonderful, loving SO, ‘living with integrity’ really struck me.
Thank you both. As I pick away at the reality of my LE – a very, very long and destructive experience (though it didn’t feel like that of course) – phrases like this will make a genuine difference.
Cheers to 54 year old Limerents. Our middle aged club continues to grow..
🥂🥂
Including you now Brother Phil.. From myself and Dame Marcia..
Thanks MJ! 😊😊😊
Please don’t forget us older, Helen Mirren types.
Of course not ND. You’re my favorite Fiend.. Just don’t tell Adam I’m trying to flatter you.. 😂😂
I was just calling attention to the 54 year olds specifically. Because the Great Dame Marcia reminds me all the time, her and I are the same age..
To MJ:
Fiend?
“Fiend?”
No I’m not saying your possessed or demonic.
Meant it as slang or
informal:
A person who is excessively fond of or addicted to something.
Or in your case, someone.. 😆
Norma:
“Please don’t forget us older, Helen Mirren types.”
Is this a selfless attempt on your part to help me with some transference?
😂😂😂
My dear Norma, you know this old man will never forget his LwL Helen Mirren. For such a young lady to humor this old man with dinner together …
Don’t fall for my brother’s better flirting techniques, it would break my heart.
To Phil:
Is it working?
If only, Norma.
(Other reply in wrong place!)
To Phil:
It might be easier to have a crush on someone who is a cross between Gloria Swanson and Helen Mirren, rather than an attractive peer at work.
I’ll get right on it 😊
“My dear Norma. You know this old man will never forget his LwL Helen Mirren. For such a young lady to humor this old man with dinner together …”
Adam,
Maaaan, you sure love buttering her toast don’t you?? You’re a funny guy.. 🤣🤣
Have no fear my Friend.
I am only being a Gentleman.. I will not steal your Woman with flattery. I have Ms. Marcia to flatter.. Now if only Ms. Marcia would be flattered by me.. 😆
To Marcia:
I’ll go.
MJ,
“Now if only Ms. Marcia would be flattered by me.. 😆”
You could start by NIXING all the comments about taking anyone with a pulse. NOT. FLATTERING. 🙂
Marcia,
What does “ NIXING all the comments about taking anyone with a pulse” mean?
Thanks.
Snow,
“What does “ NIXING all the comments about taking anyone with a pulse” mean?”
He keeps writing he’ll have coffee with any woman with a pulse. He needs to stop saying that! 🙂
To Marcia:
I’ll go.
Thanks Norma.
I knew I could count on you. I’ll pick you up at 5..
Wow ….. first, it’s just coffee then it is Adam’s broken heart. LO, Miss Lovisa never comes around, and now my dear Norma …. Hopefully Miss Marcia won’t kick me to the curb. I’ve always said women will kill me long before alcohol has a chance.
https://youtu.be/RAbrk3OISyo?si=7-TPlB6-G8cgye7k
To Adam:
You know I love you.
Brother Adam,
I have an idea, you pick up Dear Norma and bring her to the Coffee Date. We can discuss limerence over the finest coffee beans money can buy. What do you say Brother? Norma needs some attention and who better to provide it than us??
Adam,
“Hopefully Miss Marcia won’t kick me to the curb.”
I did. You were putting me below Miss Lovisa. I can’t have that. 🙂
“You were putting me below Miss Lovisa. I can’t have that. 🙂”
Remember I referred to you as a LwL Dignitary, which puts you pretty high up there imho.. 😄
You’re alright by me, you feisty old broad..
😆😂
Btw, be nice to my Brother Adam. He thinks you’re cool beans..
“Cool beans”
MJ,
Cool beans. Haven’t heard that expression since 1987. 🙂
“Remember I referred to you as a LwL Dignitary, which puts you pretty high up there imho.. 😄”
High or, to quote the singer Maxwell, the highest of the high? 🙂
I can’t talk to you anymore, either. You’re cheating on me with Norma. 🙂
Sister, have a little 💛 for Miss Norma; she can’t go out for coffee with a 🏠…
Just “close one eye” — as COO person would say, when MJ picks her up…
To Marcia:
It’s not what it looks like.
To Norma:
“It’s not what it looks like.”
Oh, I want it to be what it looks like. It will help you get your mind off your LO. 🙂
I hope MJ knows how to take a nice lady out. I’d bring pepper spray if I were you. He may get a little handsy. Unless you want him to. 🙂
I don’t mind if he gets a little handsy. I haven’t been out with a man in over 20 years.
“Cool beans. Haven’t heard that expression since 1987. 🙂”
Marcia,
You and I were 16 in 1987 my Dear. We were all about cool beans. So cool you might have even let me take you to Prom that year. In my Dad’s super cool, light blue, 2 door 78 Olds Delta 88.. Now that’s screaming cool beans.. 😂
“High or, to quote the singer Maxwell, the highest of the high? 🙂”
No.. High as in quoting singer Tai Bachman. “She’s so high like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite”
“I can’t talk to you anymore, either. You’re cheating on me with Norma. 🙂”
Hmm I’m detecting a little jealousy here. You didn’t see me getting jealous when you were chatting it up the other day, with my Brother from another Mother. This is a place of sharing the love, I thought. Besides Dear Norma told you it isn’t what it looks like. You have to believe her. I don’t want to make you mad Great One. I’ve seen you when you’re mad and I don’t like it..
“I don’t mind if he gets a little handsy. I haven’t been out with a man in over 20 years.”
ND,
I feel like I haven’t been out with a Woman in 20 years, so it’s surely going to be nice time.. 😆
To MJ:
I LITERALLY have not been on a date in over 20 years. I thought that part of my life was over. Limerence hit me out of left field a little more than two years ago, and I did not expect it at all.
“Limerence hit me out of left field a little more than two years ago, and I did not expect it at all.”
ND,
I would agree with you on this 100+%.. It will be 3 years this Friday for my LE. Mine came out of nowhere also and while I think I’m nowhere near as insane about her as I was, she still holds a special place within me. It’s just how it is. I think anyone in a true and significant limerent experience feels the same way too.
To MJ:
Wow, you remember the exact date? I don’t. It was March or April of 2023, but I don’t recall the date. Just as well.
I do remember that I was driving down the street and I saw a car with the vanity plate KRZINLV, “Crazy in Love.” And I slammed on my brakes in the middle of the street, even though there was no one in front of me, and the awareness of limerence hit me like a ton of bricks.
ND,
“I don’t mind if he gets a little handsy. I haven’t been out with a man in over 20 years.”
Ok. Just be aware he’s one of these types who asks for consent before each thing he tries. It gets tedious. 🙂
MJ,
“Now that’s screaming cool beans.. 😂”
I don’t want to be dated with my expressions. I’m trying to land younger dudes. 🙂
“No.. High as in quoting singer Tai Bachman. “She’s so high like Cleopatra, Joan of Arc or Aphrodite””
No can do. That’s THREE women in one sentence. I’m the only star in this town. 🙂
“Hmm I’m detecting a little jealousy here. You didn’t see me getting jealous when you were chatting it up the other day, with my Brother from another Mother. ”
You should get jealous. I like him better. He’s married. 🙂
“This is a place of sharing the love, I thought. ”
It’s just like a man to write that.
“Besides Dear Norma told you it isn’t what it looks like. You have to believe her.”
I don’t believe her. It’s dating! It’s a jungle, baby. There are no friends in the jungle. 🙂
” I don’t want to make you mad Great One. I’ve seen you when you’re mad and I don’t like it.”
You and I both know you don’t really want a nice girl. 🙂
Marcia,
Was just watching this and thought of you.. I can see myself out for a night on the town with someone like this..
https://youtu.be/DVaNs3QNOKs?si=qCK2gT_H8IsTC7mW
My kind of mature, classy Woman.. 😆😂
MJ,
“My kind of mature, classy Woman.. 😆😂”
I hope you meet her. It’s not me. I’m not classy. We’ve talked about this before. 🙂
This conversation in my absence … all I can think of is Anchorman “Boy that escalated quickly. That got out of hand real fast.” 🙂
Dame Marcia, I always thought it was obvious to you and those that have been around long enough that Miss Lovisa was my transference. Even though I didn’t realize it at the time.
To MJ:
If Joan Crawford is your dream woman, our coffee date is not going to go well.
Adam,
“Dame Marcia, I always thought it was obvious to you and those that have been around long enough that Miss Lovisa was my transference. Even though I didn’t realize it at the time.”
No, it wasn’t obvious. I don’t see how you can transfer to someone you’ve never met.
But if that’s the case, I’ll remove myself from the playing field. I only get in line for very specific people.
Norma:
“If Joan Crawford is your dream woman, our coffee date is not going to go well.”
That’s exactly what I thought. I love watching her but I’m nothing like her. 🙂
To Marcia:
I find her intimidating. Plus, she has scary eyebrows.
To ND:
“I find her intimidating. ”
That’s why I like her. She has a such a commanding presence on screen. She wasn’t afraid to play bitches! I’ve seen interviews with her that she did maybe in the 60s and 70s, toward the end of her life, and she wasn’t like the person she played on screen. She was much softer and said (I’m paraphrasing) that she didn’t know who Joan Crawford was! I think the persona was a character she created.
“Plus, she has scary eyebrows.”
They were. They got bigger the older she got! But she was actually a bombshell when she was younger. Started off in silent pictures as flapper/dancer! She also sang. The writer F. Scott Fitzgerald described her as “the best example of a flapper, the girl you see in smart night clubs, gowned to the apex of sophistication, toying iced glasses with a remote, faintly bitter expression, dancing deliciously, laughing a great deal, with wide, hurt eyes. Young things with a talent for living.”
Can you imagine how cool it would be for F. Scott Fitzgerald to say something like that about you? 🙂
To Marcia:
I can’t imagine ANYONE saying anything like that about me.
The best I have gotten from LO is: “You’re weird. In the best possible way.”
“If Joan Crawford is your dream woman, our coffee date is not going to go well.”
ND,
She’s not actually my specific dream Woman.
That belongs to LO exclusively. (Who does somewhat resemble Sabrina Carpenter.)
Ms. Joan is just kinda sexy Vogue to me, from that Era of movies. I like her bitchy/angry screen presence and I loved the outfits she wore on and off screen.
Ana De Armas is actually my favorite screen actress these days. I’d say that’s a good thing because she’s well into her 30s but Marcia will probably disagree and give me $#!+ for it because she’s not at least 40.
ND,
“The best I have gotten from LO is: “You’re weird. In the best possible way.”
Ah … you’re bringing it back to your LO again! 🙂
MJ,
“Ana De Armas is actually my favorite screen actress these days. I’d say that’s a good thing because she’s well into her 30s but Marcia will probably disagree and give me $#!+ for it because she’s not at least 40.”
She’s 37. Still too young. You are 54!
Although that one-nighter I had … the dude was 34. Oh, I am enjoying telling you that. That kind of made my day. 🙂
“Although that one-nighter I had … the dude was 34.”
He’s 34.. Way too young. You’re 54.. 😆
“Oh, I am enjoying telling you that. That kind of made my day.”
Must have been good if you’re bragging. Now you know why I like the ladies under 40.. 😇
MJ
Brother in my 20’s I had my eyes on 20 plus year old women. Had no patience for girls. I just had no courage to talk to said older women. Girls were just as annoying as trying to figure out how to defeat Marlboros in Final Fantasy 7. The PS1 game. Not that remake abomination SquareEniqux made recently. At least in turn based combat you hand a chance. Not the constant bombardment of 20 something year old girls’ games.
MJ,
“He’s 34.. Way too young. You’re 54.. 😆”
He was. But I can admit that. I’m not living in La La Land like you. 🙂
“Must have been good if you’re bragging. ”
It was ok. I just wanted to mention his age.
“Now you know why I like the ladies under 40.. 😇”
Not really. I don’t think he had any special skills that a man over 40 couldn’t have.
Adam,
When I was in my 20s my Manager was in her 40s. I never crushed hard on her but always liked her motherly style and how she took care of us. She wasn’t unattractive either and I always found her a type of Woman I could probably enjoy getting to know. She was newly married though, to a Lawyer and I was a good little minion who would never push the envelope with her. Holy crap I was so young, dumb and naive then..
“He was. But I can admit that. I’m not living in La La Land like you. 🙂”
Marcia,
I think at this point, La LA Land is about all I’ve got. Kinda like that pulse thing. If I don’t keep some modicum of fantasy going, I’ll probably just end up sad and depressed.. Like what else is new right?? C’mon man, why else am I still here? You people are about the only people that get me. Or maybe somewhat get me..
Besides, we’ve discussed my options.
They’re pretty bleak at best..🙃
MJ,
“Besides, we’ve discussed my options.
They’re pretty bleak at best..🙃”
That’s because you won’t make any effort.
I’m off the apps but I do have an old male acquaintance/friend who contacted me yesterday. He wants to meet up. I think you know where I’m going with this. Idk what I’m going to do. He can be flaky. But my point is … he’s not an LO. He wouldn’t even be the equivalent of your LF. But I think you know where I’m going with this.
“That’s because you won’t make any effort.”
Marcia
It’s not so much I won’t make any effort. I’m just not interested enough in investing the effort. My options are either washed up, over me, taken or not interested. So I have to go outside the box. Which given the situation with my Father, almost puts me in a no win situation.
The only “girl” friend I actually do have is also taken and I’ve never viewed her as potential anyway. It’s just not there and I don’t care enough to try. She might me for coffee, but I don’t have interest enough to care about meeting up.
MJ,
“My options are either washed up, over me, taken or not interested. So I have to go outside the box. ”
That’s exactly what I was saying. You’ve exhausted your options. It’s easy to do at our age. (See how I did that? :)) I think in another post, I mentioned joining social groups. I’ve done that, and I haven’t met anyone I want to date. I’m going to have to get back on the apps, which I do not want to do. It’s not going to fall into our laps at our age.
Thinking of you Norma Desmond. I’m sorry you’ve had a backslide. I think many of us here feel quite protective of you and we’d miss you if you weren’t here, although we’d also be happy that you didn’t need to be! Today you’re not feeling so good but tomorrow things will be better.
Thank you for those kind words. Not sure why anyone here would feel particularly protective of me, except maybe my age? I am probably the oldest person here.
I appreciate the ongoing support and will keep putting one foot in front of the other.
💛💛💛
I think I think protective of you because your LO doesn’t treat you well and neither does your family. Also, with all the married limerents I do feel a little bit of disapproval, even though I’m one of them! Maybe especially because I’m one of them. 😂 Since you’re single, your limerence seems purer and more innocent than ours.
I hadn’t looked at it that way. My situation is so different from so many others here.
I remember a few years ago I was watching the music video for the song “Creep” by Radiohead, which is one of my favorites. I was listening to the lyrics and thinking, I am SO glad I am past the point in my life where I have to deal with those kinds of emotions. I feel so sorry for the guy in the song.
And then I met LO and I realized that I WAS that guy in the song.
If only, Norma.
“I don’t understand you. Both your parents were alcoholics and divorced when you were young. You were raised by a loving but emotionally cold grandmother. Your father and grandfather committed suicide and your mother died from an overdose of pills and alcohol. And yet, you steadfastly maintain this has had no effect on your development.” – LO #2
“When many people enter therapy, they’re not seeking real change. They want to become comfortable in their current pathology.” – Dr. Marion Solomon
WRT LO #4: She was the right woman in the right place at the right time.
Oldest person here? How about 59? I’ve been married to my SO for 28 years. Almost exactly one year ago I fell for my LO. A work colleague who wound up being the most utterly enchanting person I’d known for literally decades. I fought and fought the dawning realization that I had become obsessed with her and ultimately had to admit to myself that my attraction to her had turned my world upside down. If ever in my life there were someone with whom I “clicked”, she is that person.
Fortunately I was able to confide in a good friend whose first question was what was the state of my marriage. I had been in denial about the state my marriage had deteriorated to. I had to admit that to my friend and myself. My wise friend then stated this LO is a catalyst, a signal. Not the solution to my unhappiness.
I’ve been lucky so far. I never disclosed to LO. We are no longer co-workers, and as of about a month now, we’ve been NC as I stopped texting with her. Although the texts never crossed the boundaries of “former co-worker” friendship, I had to stop lying to myself. I was deliberately maintaining contact.
I’m in counseling currently (councilor knows) although my wife is reluctant to join.
The predicament I face is even if I recover from the limerence, what is my future with my wife?
Big hugs Mit. No, you’re definitely not the oldest here, although you’re older than me.
It sounds as though you’re doing all the right things. Well done with NC and well done with the counselling. Reading all the stuff on here, and the excellent book “Smitten” is also very helpful, especially as not all counsellors are clued up on limerence. I don’t know what the future is with your wife, but I do know that it’s helpful to treat the limerence and the marriage as two issues things to solve, rather than two sides of the same problem.
To Mit:
It sounds like you’re doing a good job taking care of yourself. I wonder about your counseling and why you want your wife to join in? If you’re focusing mostly on your limerence problem, it seems she’d be best left out of it?
Sorry for the late reply. Ironically my wife and I were in counseling years ago but stopped after about a year. Back then it was for the usual lack of communication, differing goals etc. It’s kind of sad now that I think of it but we used to get a sitter for your then young son and tell him we were going on “date night”. My wife initiated the sessions and I was willing to participate fully. Those issues seem rather minuscule now compared to the overwhelming, all consuming attraction to my LO. I got back into solo counseling specifically because of the LO crisis. I felt that something was going to break in me and I was either going to disclose to LO AND/OR tell my wife I wanted a divorce. Neither action would have worked out well I’m sure although part of me also feels like it would be a “resolution” of sorts. An unpredictable, uncontrollable resolution to be sure. But I never allowed myself to believe that a relationship with my LO was a sure thing. Not by a long shot. Since I never disclosed to her, nor ever even got close to crossing the line to subtle flirting, I still to this day have no idea if she feels anything beyond friendship towards me.
I forgot to mention this before but she is also married…Yeah, a fine mess this limerence thing.
Going back into counseling felt like an utter imperative. After a few solo sessions the counselor and I agreed that the focus should be on repairing the marriage, addressing the conditions that led to my vulnerability to limerence and that mentioning the complication of my LO crisis might not be necessary or beneficial. I’m sure if I told my wife about it she would be crushed, inadequate and angry even though nothing actually happened. I tried to get her to participate in the restarted sessions but she said she felt like she had nothing to say…So the tables have turned on the counseling.
Thank you for the video interview with Fenna. I’m going to watch it in sections and have watched the first 15 minutes. Already lots of useful stuff to think about.
I’ve been feeling much better the last couple of weeks, as though a fog of limerence is lifting and the LO is not dominating my thoughts any more. I’ve been able to concentrate on my lovely husband and lots of other fun things that make me happy, and I feel better as a result.
I had a blip yesterday. It was a really busy weekend with loads going on and some stress, and suddenly my LO appeared in my head and threatened to give me goosebumps. I spend the rest of the day fighting it and had to try all my tactics of diversion and spoiling rewards, and am still having to do it a bit today although visiting this site is helping. Luckily I haven’t seen LO for a couple of weeks and hopefully I’ll have got back to my previous equilibrium by the next time I do.
I would like to write down a few thoughts. I hesitate to do this–I believe it was Snow who suggested that I spend too much time whining about LO. I guess if it’s too much, just scroll past.
I recently asked LO about two famous local houses built by the son of famed architect Frank Lloyd Wright. I thought that LO could provide me with some fabulous insights, since he has been inside both houses and knows so many people in the industry. He barely remembers either house, and had to Google them to jog his memory. Turns out he knows less than I do!
I was disappointed, and it occurred to me that almost everything about LO is disappointing. Which brings up the question of why on earth I ever had so many misperceptions about LO in the first place? He isn’t the person I thought he was, at all. What made me think he was the kindly, understanding person I originally took him to be?
Also, now that I understand now unappealing he actually is, why doesn’t the attraction fade?
Hi Norma,
“Also, now that I understand how unappealing he actually is, why doesn’t the attraction fade?”
If you feel you’re looking for his affirmation and approval, then I’d say go back to what Limerent Emeritus asked you the other day and your response to it, for one possible answer – as to why you want the affirmation from someone with a personality like his. What might you be hoping he can ‘put right’ that is unresolved in the past? Why is he that person that your mind somehow hopes can put it right? I’m offering these questions as food for thought only, not expecting that you’d lay anything bare by answering it here.
Hello Norma,
I think building a balanced view of anyone, let alone people we love, is difficult. Stories and films like to separate people into “goodies” and “Baddies” but of course life is far more complicated than that. Even harder if the people who brought you up fell short in their responsibilities and you don’t have a healthy template to follow.
In answer to your last question, I think you fell into limerence with him due to an unmet need at the time. As time has gone on, the limerence has continued due to mechanisms in our brain which keep on seeking the same reward. Your brain has been wired to keep thinking of him because that’s the only way at the moment your brain knows how to seek pleasure. It’s become habit, even though you rationally know it’s not helping you.
I perceived an uncomfortable moment about midway through this video where Fenna is elaborating on the ills of limerence and Dr. L. adds the qualification that this would not be the case when two people are limerent for each other, citing the example of his own experience with his wife. This exchange led me to wonder about whether limerence can ever be healthy if it is an addiction. When I met my husband I found him to be the most physically attractive man I had ever met, I admired him for his values as well as his personality, which was (and is) a good complement to mine. We have interests in common and enjoy each other’s company and when he asked me to marry him I did not hesitate and never had a moment of doubt before our wedding day. We have been married for 34 years, raised our children together and friends and acquaintances generally tell us that we seem to really enjoy each other (and we do). Before my LE I had never during my marriage felt an attraction to another man and I suppose that now I am feeling a bit guilty that I never experienced limerence toward my husband. But I also feel that the two situations were so different and that is what leads me to wonder if limerence can be part of a healthy and stable relationship. I felt so completely out of control during my LE and behaved in a way of which I am not proud. I am a person who likes to be in control (no roller coaster rides for me) and I wonder if part of the attraction had something to do with that feeling of being out of control within the safety of my own marriage. I don’t know if I would have reacted the same way to the LO had we both been single (he too was married). And in my case I had no friendship with the LO – he was not a work colleague or a friend – I barely knew him at all. Through LWL I have learned a lot about why the LO might have triggered such feelings in me and what I need to be aware going forward so that it does not happen again. But as I experienced it limerence and love were two totally different spheres and I find it difficult to understand how one can develop into the other. Can an addiction turn into a healthy relationship? I suppose that the question is merely academic in my circumstances and most people on this site are looking for support in an unhappy situation, but I am curious to know if there are others who are happily married to a (former or current) LO.
Hi Impatient limerent,
It might be a case of how we define limerence. I think I was definitely limerent in the common meaning of the word for my SO of 25 years. I couldn’t eat, sleep, was constantly anxious or excited back then, couldn’t think of much else, concentrate on work etc. It was the heady soulmate- stuff of limerence.
I actually love that first phase of absolute excitement.
For me, the trouble started when I experienced that for other men during my marriage. These feelings quickly deteriorated into negative stuff since they were not „allowed“, and instead of managing to shake them off I got obsessed and unhappy. That’s what I personally call a limerent episode for myself. I only count the unhappy , obsessed stuff since that’s what’s causing me problems. I do still like the feeling of being alive and full of love that I get with limerence in the beginning.
It’s nothing that can hold, the love for my SO is another, deeper and more important thing, of course, that developed after limerence.
I still think we managed a couple of rough patches with the help of the memory how limerent we were for each other.
But I think it’s different for different people. There‘s no need to feel guilty or think you lacked something in your feelings for your husband. You say the situations were completely different- so that’s how it is for you. For you, limerence might be the temporary madness of being needy, of craving something illusory, as opposed to the healthy bond you feel for your SO, and for you limerence doesn’t have to be the beginning of a relationship. There are no rules for people’s emotions or relationships.
Thank you Mila for that perspective. The “temporary madness of being needy, of craving something illusory,” certainly strikes a chord. That was a hallmark of the LE that I did not experience with my husband, though my experience of falling in love with him seemed completely in line with what I expected from the fairy tales at the time of our initial courtship. I guess a lot of our perspective depends on the stories we have been told (and told ourselves) about what leads up to the “happily ever after.”
„ I guess a lot of our perspective depends on the stories we have been told (and told ourselves) about what leads up to the “happily ever after.”
Absolutely. It might even be that I‘m happily married for 25 years DESPITE having been limerent at the beginning, and that it’s only my chosen narrative that I need the heady stuff at the beginning of a relationship- who knows?
On second thoughts, I don’t believe it. I happen to love that heady stuff and I think in my case, it was needed to strengthen the bond for a shaky beginning. Still, limerence wasn’t a sign that he was the One, as I believed back then. Maybe I felt it somehow inside , but limerence wasn’t the key sign.
Hi Impatient Limerent,
As Mila indicates there is a lot of discussion around the definition of limerence and also implied in the video too.
Fenna seems to err on it being negative only and is almost surprised by Dr L being limerent for his future wife.
I was limerent for my SO. After the first meeting I didn’t know if I would see him again ( uncertainty, a major fuel of limerence) which turned into an infatuation for quite a time until we happen to meet again,
so I experienced this “temporary madness of being needy, of craving something illusory”.
If barriers and/or uncertainty do not exist , then I think limerence is a very strong attraction that turns to love quickly, if mutual. Of course not every marriage/ LTR starts that way, and every relationship dynamic is different.
Wishing you well. Keep connecting here if need any support on your LE.
Hi Impatient Limerent,
My answer is a bit similar to
Mila’s … I think that something only turns into ‘limerence’ (versus the beginning of love and relationship development) where there are barriers and (crucially) uncertainty. In fact DrL these as the key lim-fuels – the oxygen to it.
I have had three main SOs . The one of those who was sketchy and inconsistent with the messages she sent out to me was the only one that triggered something like limerence (even once we were in an exlusive relationship). Looking back, she triggered emotions and behavioural patterns in me just like those in my (barriered) LEs.
The relationships with the other two developed more equally and comfortably – neither were uncertain or doubtful in their ‘messaging’. There were the usual butterflies and excitement of a new relationship, but it wasn’t like limerence – they were not people who shot my emotions all over the place.
That’s a long way round to me putting a theory that whether we get limerent for someone depends a lot on the other person (their uncertainty generating behaviour), presence of barriers, or both.
So if the chase with your husband was easier and without too many barriers and uncertainty, that could be why you didn’t get limerent for him in the same way you did for this LO?
Thank you LaR, I think that you are right about barriers and uncertainty. While there is uncertainty at the beginning of most relationships, in my experience it has not lasted long and/or does not escalate the emotional intensity because the relationship proceeds to another level (or ends), so it is just butterflies and excitement. But the barrier (or a mixed message situation where uncertainty is prolonged) would be more likely to increase the emotional fuel. That did not happen with my husband as we fairly quickly progressed past the uncertainty phase and we were both likely at a place in our lives where we were ready to plan a future together. Exciting in a different way but without the sense of yearning.
Snow, I don’t know whether you’re checking in here today, but are you still on for your op tomorrow? If so, all the best for it and let us know how you’re doing.
Thanks for this ☁️,
I second this, Snow. We are rooting for you. Sending love and prayers
🙏❤️🩹🙏
B xxx
🐝 🧙,
Please make sure that your next LO is NOT my SO; otherwise, I would have an extremely difficulty to punch your face and may just say, “Ok, only for You, 🐝 🧙, I’ll keep my one eye closed!” 🙄😒
Sorry, I’ve not kept up with your European “heat and storm of chatting” in LwL lately… You’re so kind
🤭 🫂
Dear Snow,
That is so sweet ☺️ thank you!
You are such a brave, fierce and resilient person. You have got this!!!!!
Bx
☁️,
Yes, my surgery is set to take place on 7:30am Eastern time of the US.
Thank you for your good wishes, and we will definitely talk more about poetry when I come back!
Keep up your LC progress 🫂
I will light a candle for you, Snow. I won’t be up yet, but will do so as soon as I can.
Miss Norma,
thank you so much for the candle!
Did you have a good time with MJ for coffee? Or is it Adam? Gee, you’re so popular — got two big limerent verbally punching each other, just for a cup of coffee with you! I’m jealous now! 😒
Who is going to have coffee with me, when I wake up❓🤔
❄️,
Unless he made an exception for Miss Norma 🏡, brother MJ is known for being quite into his instant coffee, so I wouldn’t get too envious. I wouldn’t expect instant to be to the taste of an exotic 🦩🦜.
So, if you don’t get a better offer, I’m happy to treat you to a nice cup of ground ☕️ , or a giggly 🫖, or a L’🛖🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️💲 special 🍹. Once you get out of your lazy slumbers, that is.
I know what you really want is a drink with 🎩🥃 though❕️❕️
Sir 🐍,
You’re right, how could the One and Only SnowQueen take instant coffee or instant anything with MJ or any 👻❓— only an instant Glimmer is 🫂 ‼️
Since your SO and LFF/MFF is absent here in LwL and I’m a “brave, fierce, and resilient” limerent, I’ll 😘 🪝 you to the inner room of L’🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️ to have a 💥 🍹🍸 together alone… 😋
But before I get out of the hospital to do that, I 😍 a 🌰 🥛 & ♟ game on my 🪺🦩…
To Snow:
When do you get out of the hospital?
Miss Norma,
My surgeons don’t know, depending on my case and the recovery speed. There is uncertainty involved.
I hope I’d be here no later than 7/21, my 2 year anniversary in LwL.
Thank you again for caring! Enjoy your ☕️ with MJ, Sir 🦎❗️
Miss Norma,
My surgeons don’t know, depending on my case and the recovery speed. There is uncertainty involved.
I hope I’d be here no later than 7/21, my 2 year anniversary in LwL.
Thank you again for caring! Enjoy your ☕️ with MJ, Sir 🦎❗️
To Snow:
I will keep a candle burning, and hopefully will be hearing some good news from you in a few days.
I actually don’t drink coffee anymore since discovering my heart condition. The caffeine pushes my heart out of rhythm. So, since I never drank coffee for the taste when I could, decaffeinated has no appeal. But I’ll sit with you and drink a tea or hot chocolate.
Sir 🎩 🍺,
Your Mamma is in the room, so I can’t have tea or hot chocolate with you alone. I Desire a man all to my SELF, without making his SO or BP jealous… 😊
If you bring your Mamma, then a pot of giggly 😹 🫖 together 🤝
Miss Snow
Momma doesn’t drink coffee either. But if they serve Diet Mt Dew wherever we all go she’ll have something to drink too. And then we can all have a good time.
Hi LaR
For some reason I couldn’t reply in the bonding thread!
“When you had that parallel situation with the former work LO, how did it end, and end up between you and her?”
I realise now that we were Limerent for each other. She confessed after some time that she’d “liked me” and had had feelings for me for some time. She of course knew about SO.
It was strange, really. After a fairly long period of awkwardness and some resentment , it just kinda fazed out. I remember having the distinct impression that her attitude towards me had switched – as though we had moved past it and found a new way to manage being around each other. That being said, there were blips, particularly in one occasion when she got very angry with me totally unjustifiably about something. Not long afterwards I was transferred (not related) but we were still professionally linked. I think that that finally helped to remove any non-work links and we were fine.
But actually, for the most part whilst we were in the same office, time seemed to be a big help.
On a separate note – gave you seen csc recently? I’m a bit worried about her….
Jmmo
Hi Jmmo,
Csc put a quick reply to someone else’s post in the last week or two, but I haven’t seen anything else. Pre your time here, she came and went. Last I knew she was throwing herself into a backlog of work projects, but I do agree it is a bit of a worry that we haven’t heard from her.
You can contact DrL and give him permission to swap your email address with another poster. I’m not quite clear how it works after that, but I think both people need to ask him independently for it to go anywhere. At one point I thought he might go directly to the other party and ask their permission, but I now think it is probably the other way, with both needing to ask him.
Good luck with that. If it is not possible / wanted, I’d keep posting to her from time to time. As I say, I have seen her name pop up once this last couple of weeks.
My hope is that my LE fades in the same way your previous one did. I think we are on our way – cordial enough as it needs to be at work, but ‘ramped down’ and no longer in my head as much.
Hi Snow,
I wish you the best for your surgery! You‘ll rise from it like phoenix 🐦🔥 I’m sure. Good luck and I hold my thumbs that all goes well.
Mila 🔥 🍊 🍷 ,
Don’t forget a ✏️ in your thumbs❗️
📣 A pencil ✏️, a pencil ✏️, ❄️🦩 🔥 will rise again for a ✏️ ‼️📣
📣 Sorry, can’t help speak the last purple word ♒️ 😝
🫂
Every pencil in the world for you, Snow! 🍀
I can have one now ✏️
Miss Snow,
Are you out of your surgery?
Yes but couldn’t move
Snow,
Yeah! Glad you’re out of the surgery.
Wow, I didn’t think you’d be on the Net so soon, Snow! 🙂
🦇, thank you.
I made a promise, so have to keep it. Although I did with one mobile hand in the recovery room. 😊
How are you doing, Snow? Did things go well?
Wow Snow! Glad you woke up:)
I hope it went well and you recover quickly.
Prayers answered! Its beautiful to hear from you, ❄️ ☺️😘
Sending the best for your recovery. Take your time …
B xxx
🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️ Gang,
The 4 hour surgery went well, and I slept a no-infection night and feeling more mobile— can type with two hands 🙌 now!
A tiny sample was taken to the lab for biopsy and shows benign, hopefully the whole piece will be totally benign after four week of biopsy
Thank you all for your prayers and caring. I’m still with you and will serve your favorite giggly 🤣 🫖 soon.
Dear ❄️,
What wonderful news on the biopsy so far. May it bode well for the rest of the investigations. So glad that you have come through the op with this initial news 🙏🍀😘
❄️ Great news! All the best for a smooth recovery.
To Snow:
I am delighted and amazed to see you “up” and typing already.
Hoping for continued good news, and I will keep your candle going!!
Bravo Lady Snow!!!! 🥳👏👏
L’Amoors will start some mixology to celebrate this news with you as soon as it is confirmed.
In the mean time, i can’t think of a better gift than one of Mila’s ✏️✏️✏️ They come personally recommended.
Miss Snow,
Great news, Lady Snow!
How are you feeling? You go home in four days ?
I will answer your other, long post so you have something to read! (If you are up and reading. Maybe you’re mostly resting.)
Good news, Snow! 🙂
Good news with the biopsy!!
I‘m happy all goes so well.
Please rest and don’t feel obligated to answer!
All the best and a lot of pencils in different colors and sizes!
Yay, great news ❄️!
Wishing you a speedy recovery!
🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️,
I’ve been sleeping/napping a lot due to anesthesia effect, and has tons of dreams in which I ran and ran….
I walked with a walker once and will do more. I’ll be discharged tomorrow. One of my gfs will pick me up with car.
I’m still too tired to read long posts on a small phone screen.
Thank you for all your cheering!
🫂 🫂 🤗 🤗 🫂 🫂
This is all such really great news to hear, Snow.
Keep on keeping on 😁
To Snow:
Mila can handle the pencils and I will keep on with the candles.
I hope all continues to go well!
🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️,
I am home 🏡 again!
The recovery in the hospital went very well, so I was discharged as planned.
Can take care of myself and cook, but can’t open the heavy old-fashioned 🛗 and front gate🚪. 🙄 Wifi is still 😞
Will take outdoor walk tomorrow! 🌞
To Snow:
Such good news. I am so pleased to hear this.
Embers! My LO suddenly went from stoney cold cold cold to…oh, wow, we are just about to do some restarting and going on upwards, type of feelers. But I am on greying embers right now. Glowing still, but under cooling layers of ash. It does feel different, more like a loyalty type of affection. Both life-partnered, and colleagues. This does feel bearable (not the same as doable). Creating splashes of energy and good work relations with enduring human connection is indeed a good path.
Camilla,
Lovely words as always. I’ve been describing mine as ’embers’ for a while now, though the embers do ignite warmer and cool quieter at different stages. My circumstances sound similar to yours, apart from that LO is not life-partnered. I like ‘bearable’ as opposed to ‘doable’ – sometimes, I think we have to choose the least-worst option.
“Creating splashes of energy and good work relations with enduring human connection is indeed a good path.”
And this is indeed the problem for anyone who falls limerent for a dear colleague! Such connections are rare, and hard to let go of totally – and perhaps not even advisable to let go of totally. Me, I just wish those connections had stayed the right side of the line, and not tipped me into ‘feelings’ … but a lot of that is uncontrollable.
Wishing you well.
There’s a lot going right now. My wife, kids, and cats are now in our new place on the opposite coast. I’m finishing getting this house ready to go on the market and the dog and I will be heading out next week.
The move will put us within 250 miles of the last known positions of LO #2 & LO #4. I’ve been waking up with anxiety attacks about all the things that I still need to get done.
Last night I had a dream about LO #2. I don’t remember a lot except it seemed to be a relatively pleasant conversation.
LO #2 said something along the lines of she wondered why we thought we might ever have had a viable relationship. I responded maybe because that she told me that she loved me and I asked her to marry me.
“Yeah, well, there was that.”
And, then I woke up.
I don’t mean to downplay your dream, LE, but I must congratulate you on your upcoming adventure. I hope you enjoy your new place.
Thanks, Lovisa,
I love my inlaws and I became reasonably familiar with the area over the years. I really like it.
There are some things I’ll miss about the place I’m moving from but overall, not too many.
Gee, that does sound stressful, LE. I am not surprised about the anxiety attacks.
Do you think your LO#2 dream was about how, compared with moving house across coasts, your LE-associated stress is miniscule these days?
I’ve often heard it quoted that losing your job, getting divorced, and moving house are ranked most stressful life events, although I woukd definitely prefer to move house than either of the other two.
Wish you all the best of 🍀!
Dr L
I googled limerence for a clinical explanation for someone elsewhere on the internet and your youtube video on “the stages of limerence” was on the front page. The first video of all others. Congratulations! You’re helping people outside of LwL. We all appreciate your efforts and hard work.
I ran into LO last evening, as I often do on Thursday nights and I felt like I have made no progress at all. I kept the conversation short and neutral, but the longing I felt was as strong as ever.
My intense feelings of affection for him were coupled with exasperation and almost a sense of contempt. He still does not have his fancy house on the market, and his escrow in another state is due to close in nine weeks. He now has to go to his rich brother to advance him the money. He can’t pay for the new house until the old one is sold. Which makes me wonder, why on earth even go shopping for something you can’t afford until you know the money is in hand?
This is not the right way to do things, in my opinion, and if he were my brother, or my husband, or my son, I would be freaking out and telling him exactly what I thought of his decision-making.
I am trying to distance myself from him and not having nearly as much success as I had hoped. I wish I could see him as “just another guy.”
Hello Norma Desmond,
I’m sorry you bumped into him. It’s not what you need!
In the video above, Fenna talks about LO’s having a vulnerability which makes them irresistible. Even though you’re completely exasperated with him, the fact that he seems to need looking after is part of his appeal, I reckon.
Even I’m intrigued by him I’ve never met the guy!
Thinking back to the day that I got the glimmer, I remember LO saying something that made him seem vulnerable, and I think was definitely part of what caused this LE, although I hadn’t thought about it until I watched Fenna’s video.
Right now, I’m trying to avoid thinking, talking or writing about LO. I have everything I need here at home and thinking about LO and documenting every interaction here or in my password-protected diary just contributes to the limerence.
That is such a great point. That vulnerability, and feeling somehow that LO needs me–yes!!!
In reality, he doesn’t need me at all, and I feel like I made that part up, along with everything else I believed about him.
My best defense is to keep reminding myself of his flakiness and how he doesn’t mean anything he says. Or, perhaps he means it at the moment he says it, but it’s almost instantly forgotten as he turns back to his favorite subject–himself.
Thank you for those great comments. I appreciate them more than you know.
Hi all,
I am one of the “ex-limerents” who used to haunt these pages in the agonies of limerence and trying to make sense and get some catharsis. I had two LOs in my life, and I found this page during my second bout. I eventually got over it (two years) and started dating and was enjoying a relationship with a guy I liked very much, that developed without limerence.
However – I recently broke up with that person, and despite not having been limerent for him, I find myself thinking about him a lot. This is not quite the same as the insistence of intrusive thoughts, but they do come often, and I am worried that it might become limerence? I think it is a little different. I don’t have the post-limerence Blah, which Mila describes so well, where life seems grey and colorless. In fact, life is pretty good post-break up, it’s just I do feel sad out of the blue, and I have noticed that thoughts of my ex still come unbidden. I think … I am slightly wired to be obsessive. Does any one feel that?
I am wondering – have any of you noticed a difference between breaking up with someone you are limerent for vs. someone you just liked in a more normal way? Do you find generally, you tend to be obsessive about romantic relationships?
Hello Worried,
On your specific question, I am sorry that I do not have similar experiences to compare and share.
Maybe it is just the pure, raw pain of missing that person in your life and the potential they held that is bringing the sadness and thoughts.
It’s normal to feel pain after a break up, yes?!
And for us intense / obsessive types, then even more so !
Glad your life is otherwise pretty good post-break up. I hope that will continue. Try to make the most of it and enjoy your current single right now !
*single status…
😁
Thank you very much for your encouraging message, Imho!
Yeah, I mean break ups are just sad, it’s true. I just feel like I feel so intensely, all the time. Yet, it is interesting how different it is to limerence where I felt at times like cutting LO out of my life was like cutting off a limb. Limerence really is a cognitive state all of its own.
“I am wondering – have any of you noticed a difference between breaking up with someone you are limerent for vs. someone you just liked in a more normal way?”
Worried
I’ve had some bad and messed up romantic breakups. From being introduced to the “other guy” hand in hand with her, to finding out she was dating me as a novelty for my skin color, to being poached to be another man’s baby’s daddy. But I have never felt any despair worse than when LO left my life. It was her choice to leave. She did tell me herself that she was leaving the job. I was there by her side on her last day on the job. I am not at all a very emotional man (at least outwardly expressing them) but that day broke me. Limerence has been one of the most distraught experiences I have had in my life. Add to the fact that unlike you I am not single, so that just made matters worse.
I pined over the “other guy” gal quite a lot after it all fell through. I sometimes wonder if that might have been my first limerent experience. It wasn’t as intense as the most recent one, if it was. I think I just latch on to budding relationships too quickly. Like the song lyric “well you see her when you fall asleep, but never to touch her and never to keep, cause you loved her too much and you dived too deep”.
As IMHO said, enjoy life and your single status. Things can always be worse. I guess, that could mean they could be better too …. aw shut up old man. You’re ruining it. 😐
Marcia,
I am switching coffeehouses now as DrL has locked the doors on the other while we were still talking. Call it a lock-in. Not my first one of those lately.
“Did your parents marry when they were very young? Did they not have to live on their own for a while before marrying?”
At about 25 years old. She lived away, he was still probably hen-pecked by his family. But at their age growing up, there were ‘things the man did’ and ‘things the woman did’ much more than now, so it is not uncommon.
“I noticed you ignored my comment about a man having MALE friends. 🙂”
I have definitely gleaned from before that you think partnered men should be friends with men!
I am good friends with some men but as many women. I was really honest with SO with this when we started out. I did not want to become that person like your mate that can’t now talk unless he is in the car. My friends deserve more than that. (Of course, there has been another unintended consequence of keeping one of my female friends around, which if I had presented the prospect to SO, may have made her run a mile).
“For the record, he and I don’t flirt with each other; it’s not that type of party.”
I have three (good) female friends where we are like that – never have and never will flirt. (‘No’ basket from the start for two of them, one was a ‘maybe’ that moved to ‘no’).
“Do you mean people you have to click with … because you’re kind of stuck with them? 🙂”
Yeah – the work still needs getting done. In the team of people I have work with me. there are a few prickly characters who don’t really like each other that much. But we still have to get the work done, and the boss looks to me to make it get done amongst that group. It is in everyone’s interest if we can at least all pretend to get on. I have some methods based on psychological stuff I know that can make that happen better.
“Aren’t you going to ask me how I could hook up with him then?”
I’d jumped a stage and assumed you now weren’t going to. But yeah OK, how would you be able to hook up with him if you’re not attracted to him? It is a good one to explore.
“We’ve moving in to enough time passing since we last chatted that it’s getting rude. I don’t like the way he’s handling this.”
You can make the rules here, and that sounds fair enough to me. What’s the point in all the hanging around? (says the 2-year limerent 😅)
[“The rest are all 6-8 starts and grew when there was more emotional connection.”]
“So you’re talking about the women who started off as “yes’s” ?”
Yes’s or strong maybes – I don’t know. This stuff is more art than science, isn’t it?
“So you just had no interest in pursuing them? Or didn’t think they’d reciprocate ?”
More the second one – or that I knew they’d be ‘trouble’. I had a pretty poor opinion of my prospects with women until I was in my 30s. I am more confident about it now (ironically, when I don’t need to be).
“I’d say it’s more appreciation than attraction. Or they’re way too young, etc.”
Yeah, I think that’s like my ‘someone in a movie’ one, in a way.
[“I know the exact moment when she switched ‘baskets’.”]
“She “picked up” a pencil on the floor ? 🙂”
Again, a very funny reply! Not at the time – it was just like a total flip of the switch (I felt it flip) after an (emotionally) intimate conversation the previous day – but I was not expecting it to happen. There was a bit of a ‘pencil’ incident more recently but I don’t want to give the detail as I think she was onto me!
[“I think so. Kind of ‘maybe / there is something about her / I am not averse / I wouldn’t mind getting to know her better to see’”]
“That’s not my “neutral.” Neutral is … I enjoy their attention, enjoy the flirty energy, like as a friend, but don’t really want to act on it. There’s something missing that compels me to try to get the person alone in a room.”
Do you think that the difference between you and me there, might reflect a bigger difference in how men and women perceive those interactions?
[“That’s a definite Marilyn. Natural and in the right places … Ps are spontaneous and do whatever feels good to them at the time.”]
“I’m your girl, baby! 🙂 I’m kidding, but not really. 🙂”
🙂😳 I do like that combination.
“The idea of the article was … whatever happened to an old-fashioned affair? The tone was obviously a little tongue and cheek, but all this “ethical non-monogamy” … has drained the juice out of everything.”
I think this is worth more discussion but needs more time and brain than I have at this second. What do you think about what the article was saying?
[“SO was forever asking if I was OK.”]
“So you seemed down to her?”
She detected it at a couple of points. When my limerence was at its worst and LO was on my mind all day every day, no matter what I was doing. It seriously disrupted my ability to be present with SO then. And then again when I was pushing through the death of hope. I was pretty depressed then – it fits your theory. I have had other life and work events going on that I have hidden behind in explanations to SO at those times, and they are plausible enough. But I am pretty sure she knew there was more, but didn’t challenge me.
[“People in this community have been the closest I have had to keeping me sane. I know that sounds sad, but hey, at times it has been true. ”]
“I don’t think it sounds sad.”
No, I guess not, thanks. I doubt I’d be alone in saying I’ve talked more to people here through my LE about what was really going on, than people in my real life.
“I have done that as well. It’s usually when hope is gone.
I think they’re connected. Limerence and food. Both a search for a dopamine hit, and there’s an addictive tendency in that.”
It was worst for me during death of hope too. I agree that we try all sorts of other ways to get the dopamine hit, if we can’t get the one we are really after.
LaR,
“I have definitely gleaned from before that you think partnered men should be friends with men!”
“Glean” means to extract info. I think I’ve been pretty direct about. 🙂
“I did not want to become that person like your mate that can’t now talk unless he is in the car. My friends deserve more than that.”
I agree. I respect you for that.
“Of course, there has been another unintended consequence of keeping one of my female friends around, which if I had presented the prospect to SO, may have made her run a mile).”
Yes. Limerence!
So my first thought if a man has female friends: Is this someone you wanted but she wasn’t interested so you put up with being in the friend zone? Am I the second choice? Or is this someone you have hooked up with /dated in the past?
“I have three (good) female friends where we are like that – never have and never will flirt. (‘No’ basket from the start for two of them, ”
That’s how it was for me. On my end. He did disclose a crush, but it was a million years ago and I don’t think he feels that way now.
“one was a ‘maybe’ that moved to ‘no’).”
What would move someone from a “maybe” to a “no”?
“Yeah – the work still needs getting done. In the team of people I have work with me. there are a few prickly characters who don’t really like each other that much. But we still have to get the work done, and the boss looks to me to make it get done amongst that group.”
Are you a manager?
“I’d jumped a stage and assumed you now weren’t going to. But yeah OK, how would you be able to hook up with him if you’re not attracted to him? It is a good one to explore.”
CONTRARY to what you ‘ve probably been told or led to believe, women CAN have sex with someone they’re not attracted to. Just like men.
There’s still the thrill of sex in general, or maybe the idea/anticipation of it. Also, practice.
But I got up today and thought: NOPE! He’s now taken too long to get back to me, which is rude. I don’t know why he bothered contacting me. Does he actually think I’m jonesing for him so much, I’ll put up with anything?
“You can make the rules here, and that sounds fair enough to me. What’s the point in all the hanging around? (says the 2-year limerent 😅)”
See above. 🙂 Yeah, there are all kinds of rules you actually follow through with if you’re not that into the person! Everyone has standards then! 🙂
“Yes’s or strong maybes – I don’t know. This stuff is more art than science, isn’t it?”
Yes, it is a science. 🙂 Idk. A 6-8 attraction would not be a “maybe” for me. Particularly an 8. That’s a strong attraction. I don’t feel attracted that often.
“or that I knew they’d be ‘trouble’.”
In what way?
Idk. A little bit of trouble can be a good thing. 🙂
“I had a pretty poor opinion of my prospects with women until I was in my 30s. I am more confident about it now (ironically, when I don’t need to be).”
Because you’re with someone? That’s another thing (like my preference for men with male friends): I’d want to date someone who’d gotten around a little bit. Which is more than likely the case if they’re around my age.
[“I’d say it’s more appreciation than attraction. Or they’re way too young, etc.”]
“Yeah, I think that’s like my ‘someone in a movie’ one, in a way.”
For me, I would say this is the type that doesn’t really land. I notice them but … I’m not moved to do anything.
“Not at the time – it was just like a total flip of the switch (I felt it flip) after an (emotionally) intimate conversation the previous day – but I was not expecting it to happen.”
Ha! Thus, you’re a demisexual!
” There was a bit of a ‘pencil’ incident more recently but I don’t want to give the detail as I think she was onto me!”
She caught you cruising her ass? 🙂
[“That’s not my “neutral.” Neutral is … I enjoy their attention, enjoy the flirty energy, like as a friend, but don’t really want to act on it. There’s something missing that compels me to try to get the person alone in a room.”]
“Do you think that the difference between you and me there, might reflect a bigger difference in how men and women perceive those interactions?”
Idk. To be honest, I used to be very flirtatious. At the job where I met my LO. With a lot of guys. (I had to interact with a lot of people for my job.) I’d say almost all were married. And I only had a couple of serious offers for more (just to be clear: to hook up). So I’d say … it was the same for them. Nobody intended to act on it.
“🙂😳 I do like that combination.”
Guess what my type is. 🙂
“I think this is worth more discussion but needs more time and brain than I have at this second. What do you think about what the article was saying?”
That when you spend all this time negotiating/talking/discussing/dissecting you suck all the life out of things. And I won’t lie: Part of the thrill is the transgression. In an affair, I mean. You’re not supposed to do it. And you have a secret together. I also don’t know how on earth this stuff can be regulated. How do you trust that your partner won’t hook up with people you’ve agreed they not hook up with if you’ve opened the door for non-monogamy? Like … three people can hook up together but the “third” isn’t allowed to hook up with either member of the couple alone.
” But I am pretty sure she knew there was more, but didn’t challenge me.”
Yeah, the elephant in the room that long-term couples avoid talking about.
“No, I guess not, thanks. I doubt I’d be alone in saying I’ve talked more to people here through my LE about what was really going on, than people in my real life.”
Me, too. With the exception of a couple of friends. You haven’t told any of your close female friends about your limerence?
“I agree that we try all sorts of other ways to get the dopamine hit, if we can’t get the one we are really after.”
I wish I had access to cocaine. 🙂
Marcia,
I will answer properly to all points later today but thought I’d quickly tackle this bit:
“You haven’t told any of your close female friends about your limerence?”
I told one after she guessed. She knows LO and doesn’t much like her. Just told me I was mad for even considering LO, basically. I have never mentioned or discussed with her since, and it is over a year ago since the conversation. Her attitude towards LO generally and her presence around me threatened to turn me against her for a time.
I told two other (male) friends – also not a good experience. Since I found LwL I haven’t breathed a word of it to people in my reality. I don’t have a good word to say about those experiences of trying to tell people.
Has it ever been any better when you’ve tried?
Bad sentence clarification;
‘Turn me against her’ means turn me against herself (the friend), not against LO.
LaR,
“Just told me I was mad for even considering LO, basically. ”
What were her concerns? Were any of them valid?
“Has it ever been any better when you’ve tried?”
I told one friend the whole truth about LO-lite. She wasn’t judgmental but didn’t seem to get how he had affected me.
With my LO, I told a few friends. Two didn’t really get it. Get limerence, I mean. They seemed to think it was just an attraction. As in: What’s the problem? Another got belligerent with me about how he was just flirting. I don’t respond well to people talking to me like I’m a psychological basket case. I didn’t like her tone, and I never brought it up again. She actually had the audacity to ask about him later; I completely evaded the question.
However, with another friend … well, it was the opposite. She indulged me in La La Land. (I think she had a thing for someone while married at the same time I was limerent for my LO.) That wasn’t helpful either.
I want someone to tell me the truth. Just don’t talk to me like I’m an idiot.
“I agree. I respect you for that.”
Thanks. It is difficult to keep everyone happy in that situation. But I do feel that we need to weigh up needs of friends who are really long term already, with those of a new SO who (at the time) we have no idea whether they will become long term.
“So my first thought if a man has female friends: Is this someone you wanted but she wasn’t interested so you put up with being in the friend zone? Am I the second choice? Or is this someone you have hooked up with /dated in the past?”
They are fair concerns. When I started up with SO, I would honestly have answered ‘no’ to all those, re LO. I did not gauge if LO was interested in me back before I met SO, because LO was in an LTR.
“That’s how it was for me. On my end. He did disclose a crush”
It’s funny, isn’t it, how hard it is to be purely platonic friends (PPF) with a MOS without at least one catching feelings.
I can honestly say I never have for these two PPFs of mine. I can’t be certain that they never have for me, but I never got even a hint that they did.
“What would move someone from a “maybe” to a “no”?”
I found out more about her. I realised how clingy and controlling she’d be. The sort of girl who’d go through my phone. As a friend she offered other good things but as a girlfriend, just no! I decided we’d be best off as friends and that’s held for 15 years.
“Are you a manager?”
No, not in name. I have been in previous jobs. Now I am sort of expected to manage without getting paid for doing it.
“women CAN have sex with someone they’re not attracted to. Just like men”
It’s an alien concept to me, but I recognise I’m not typical.
“Does he actually think I’m jonesing for him so much, I’ll put up with anything?”
Well wasn’t it his idea, after all?
“Particularly an 8. That’s a strong attraction. I don’t feel attracted that often.”
An 8 would always be well worth pursuing.
[“or that I knew they’d be ‘trouble’.”]
“In what way?
Idk. A little bit of trouble can be a good thing. 🙂”
I think I could have fun with ‘a bit of trouble’ (as I have told you, all my strongest crushes and LOs have been along those lines), but I wouldn’t do well in relationships with them. From my reading of other people’s stories on here – notably the men’s – their limerence tends to be for people who are a ‘bit of trouble’. There is something about slightly ‘edgy’ women, for men.
“Because you’re with someone?”
That’s why I don’t need to be bothered, but possibly also why I am more confident. People maybe just come across a bit more carefree and relaxed when with someone? There are no stakes.
“Ha! Thus, you’re a demisexual!”
Whatever it was, it was powerful.
“She caught you cruising her ass? 🙂”
Not ass, but you’re along the right lines! 🙂
“So I’d say … it was the same for them. Nobody intended to act on it.”
So with no intentions, you were just enjoying the energy and the banter that goes with light flirtation?
“Guess what my type is. 🙂”
I think you’d like a bit of a bad boy. Confident, knows what he wants. You wouldn’t mind if he had a bit of brawn, or put another way you wouldn’t need him to be a skinny waif with a six pack. TDH. Anywhere near?
“That when you spend all this time negotiating/talking/discussing/dissecting you suck all the life out of things. And I won’t lie: Part of the thrill is the transgression.”
Agree with all that.
“I also don’t know how on earth this stuff can be regulated.”
I’m not sure how it can either. Or how it can be fair. I’m torn. Part of me thinks it is fair enough to recognise that monogamy may not be for all (may just he hardwired into us as the ‘right way’) and so respects the effort to normalise other ways too. But I think the only truly authentic way would be for a couple to be together but agree that the other (equally for both of them) can do whatever else they want on the side. But could many primary relationships *really* survive in that situation?
“I wish I had access to cocaine. 🙂”
It’s funny how it let you post that but didn’t let Snow post the name of a painkiller.
“Two didn’t really get it. Get limerence, I mean. They seemed to think it was just an attraction”
Part of me thinks it is just a fancy name for strong, obsessive attraction. I have never tried to explain limerence itself to anyone. It is niche. One thing that puts me off is that if I did explain it to anyone, they might wind up here and be able to find cringe stuff I’ve said.
“What were her concerns? Were any of them valid?”
I could answer this in two ways.
The first is that I believe she got insanely jealous that I’d let another female at work get closer to me than she was. She liked keeping me close and saw LO as a threat to her kind of status of “number one work friend”. (This friend claims it is the other way round – that LO finds her a threat – as if!)
The other part is that LO is not everyone’s cup of tea – quite a loud/brash/prickly character. If you know how to handle that, that character can be a whole lot of fun. If you don’t, then she seems difficult. This friend finds her difficult. She also likes my SO. She doesn’t understand limerence, just sees it black and white that LO is trying to hook me for a possible affair. And doesn’t get why I’d do that, when I have SO. It’s a fair point, but based on misunderstanding of the issue and stereotyping of LO rather than bothering to get to know her properly.
LaR,
“But I do feel that we need to weigh up needs of friends who are really long term already, with those of a new SO who (at the time) we have no idea whether they will become long term.”
I agree with you, but I’ve had friends who go almost or go completely MIA when they start dating someone. And I want to ask: Are you really ditching a years-long friendship for someone you’ve known a matter of weeks?
“It’s funny, isn’t it, how hard it is to be purely platonic friends (PPF) with a MOS without at least one catching feelings.”
I don’t know what MOS means.
IME, the who catches feelings is usually the guy. Thus, I wouldn’t choose to date a man with female friends!
I did have a crush on a guy friend in high school, but it started off as a strong crush. And then he somehow, years later, wound up hanging out with my friend group. But he and I didn’t hang out one-on-one. Ever. I don’t know if I could have done that. It would have felt like a date. At least to me. Other than that, I’ve thought of my guy friends as friends (as much as I can remember because I’m old :)).
“I can honestly say I never have for these two PPFs of mine. I can’t be certain that they never have for me, but I never got even a hint that they did.”
Yes, but wasn’t your LO a PPF at some point? Or are you not counting the maybes as PPFs? Haven’t you befriended the maybes? Are there not some feelings there?
“I found out more about her. I realised how clingy and controlling she’d be. The sort of girl who’d go through my phone. ”
Maybe she feels she has to because you have so many female “friends.” 🙂 For the record, I believe everyone should have their privacy. HOWEVER, if I repeatedly ask you about something I have a nagging, creepy feeling about (say, the nature of your relationship with a woman) and you are, in fact, repeatedly lying about it, and then I eventually go through your phone (because something has felt off for a while and I can’t get a clear answer out of you) and find out you are lying, I think the lying is the worse crime.
“Now I am sort of expected to manage without getting paid for doing it.”
That’s a dangerous place to be in. Today’s favor is tomorrow’s job.
[“women CAN have sex with someone they’re not attracted to. Just like men”]
“It’s an alien concept to me, but I recognise I’m not typical.”
Well, I can’t do it very long.
As I wrote to Snow, that one-time hookup from the apps has reappeared. He wants to meet up again. I don’t want to. That was more for the experience than for him.
[“Does he actually think I’m jonesing for him so much, I’ll put up with anything?”]
“Well wasn’t it his idea, after all?”
Yes, but I don’t understand how its being his idea that would make him think I’m jonesing for it?
“From my reading of other people’s stories on here – notably the men’s – their limerence tends to be for people who are a ‘bit of trouble’. There is something about slightly ‘edgy’ women, for men.”
Yeah, but I want to be the edgy/desired choice; I don’t want to be the safe choice. I fear the latter.
“People maybe just come across a bit more carefree and relaxed when with someone? There are no stakes.”
I had a friend who used to say, “It’s easier to get into a relationship when you’re in a relationship.” It’s a horrible thing to say, but it’s true. It’s a takeoff on the idea that it’s easier to get a job when you already have one. Why? You’re not desperate. The part of you that needs validation is at least partly sated, so you give off a different energy.
[“She caught you cruising her ass? 🙂”]
“Not ass, but you’re along the right lines! 🙂”
If it ain’t the ass, it has to be the chest! 🙂
“So with no intentions, you were just enjoying the energy and the banter that goes with light flirtation?”
Yes. It’s all context-dependent and situation-dependent, but if I had wanted it to go further, I would have done or said something to open the door. (Obviously, if i was given some indication/signs that I should.)
[“Guess what my type is. 🙂”]
“I think you’d like a bit of a bad boy.”
I don’t know any “bad boys” who are my age. How can you be a bad boy with a mortgage and two kids? 🙂
” Confident, knows what he wants. You wouldn’t mind if he had a bit of brawn, or put another way you wouldn’t need him to be a skinny waif with a six pack. TDH. Anywhere near?”
No, except for the six pack, which, as you guessed correctly, is irrelevant to me. 🙂 I actually like a thinner guy but not every LO/crush has been.
LO-lite wasn’t particularly confident. I don’t know that my LO was, either.
“But I think the only truly authentic way would be for a couple to be together but agree that the other (equally for both of them) can do whatever else they want on the side. But could many primary relationships *really* survive in that situation?”
I agree with you. In theory, it makes sense, but in practice I’m not sure how well it works. And here’s another piece to it: If I’m the side party for a person in an open relationship and there are all these rules and regulations about what this person can and can’t do (rules I probably got no say in determining), why on earth would I sign up for that?
“Part of me thinks it is just a fancy name for strong, obsessive attraction. ”
It is, but it isn’t. That description isn’t really enough.
“One thing that puts me off is that if I did explain it to anyone, they might wind up here and be able to find cringe stuff I’ve said.”
I never thought that. I never thought people were paying all that much attention. 🙂 But the general attitude was (I remember from one friend who’d been married): So? You’re attracted to someone you can’t have. So?
She didn’t get it.
“The first is that I believe she got insanely jealous that I’d let another female at work get closer to me than she was. ”
Insanely jealous or just jealous? Because I do get jealous (yes, even with friends), but not “insanely” so. But, no, if it’s clear I’ve been replaced as the “best” friend, I don’t like it. I also didn’t like to see my dude work/flirt friends talking to other women or commenting to me about them. Say, if a new female employee started and they mentioned her. I mean, it didn’t keep me up nights and I never said anything about it to them, but I didn’t like it.
“(This friend claims it is the other way round – that LO finds her a threat – as if!)”
It’s possible she does.
“The other part is that LO is not everyone’s cup of tea – quite a loud/brash/prickly character.”
Ah, well, them I’m not your girl. 🙂 I have flashes of boldness/toughness and a little bit of inappropriateness/bawdiness, but I’m not loud/brash/prickly.
“She doesn’t understand limerence, just sees it black and white that LO is trying to hook me for a possible affair. And doesn’t get why I’d do that, when I have SO.”
This is exactly what I’m talking about. This black-and-white interpretation when I told people about my LO.
Marcia,
For now, i’ll pick out just a few discussion points from that:
“Ah, well, them I’m not your girl. 🙂 I have flashes of boldness/toughness and a little bit of inappropriateness/bawdiness, but I’m not loud/brash/prickly”
The/An interesting thing here. A lot of men say they are attracted to women who seem or act like a good girl, but they have a wilder side. I have experienced that sort of attraction. LO is like the opposite – the wild child is there on the surface to be seen – underneath that, vulnerable and sweet as sugarcane. This will probably sound either vain or like I have ‘rescue fantasy’ (and indeed I may do) – but a strong part of the attraction for me is that she has let me see all those sides, willingly. She has collapsed a lot of the walls for me. And even if that’s something she’s done purely because I’m her friend, it’s proved incredibly powerful.
I don’t believe she has done that to manipulate me – she is not that type. But People like my platonic female friend only see the walls, and then see potential manipulation.
Here on LwL (though I recognise that in writing people can seem quite different) you give off signs of being bold and tough – the sort of person who wears heart on sleeve and has no time for BS or timewasting. [I mean all this as a compliment – I like people with those character attributes and I purposely don’t pick ‘easy route’ people to talk to, in life or on here.]. Do you think you come across the same or different offline?
About your ‘type’ – you told me more in the reply about what it’s not, than what it is. What is your type?
MOS = member of opposite sex (the term possibly hasn’t aged well in political correctness but here on LwL most people seem quite happy with there being men and women)
I also want to play through with you the part about looking through the phone and discovering lies. Like, say SO put me under real pressure about LO. I don’t think either of these responses are right:
“No, the thought has never crossed my mind”
“Yep, i’ve been obsessing over her almost non stop for two years”
What would you say is the right level of ‘truth’ to go to here? Thinking of yourself as the SO. I am not in this situation in reality (not under pressure from SO) so don’t worry that what you say will influence anything I actually do – I am not seeking answers. I’m just using my own case as an example to debate the wider matter of what the limerent should do.
Marcia,
Other points (replied earlier to the main ones):
“Yes, but I don’t understand how its being his idea that would make him think I’m jonesing for it?”
We’re on the same page with what we’re trying to say. I mean he has no right to think you’re jonesing for him when it was his idea. If he believes that, instead of being more active, his loss.
“Insanely jealous or just jealous?”
It was quite insane for a spell. She made me feel like I had to choose one or the other. I said “I really want to be friends with you both. But if you ask me to choose between [LO] and you, then you won’t win.”. She then started to back down and see she was being unreasonable, or at least couldn’t ‘win’ by her stance.
In the past I had a workplace PPF go right off the jealous deep end when my LO3 turned up and replaced her (in her perception) as my new work best friend. She sabotaged her friendship with me and tried to sabotage it for me with xLO, but failed to. She was insanely jealous level, the latest one just jealous.
LaR,
“A lot of men say they are attracted to women who seem or act like a good girl, but they have a wilder side. I have experienced that sort of attraction.”
That’s me. 🙂
“LO is like the opposite – the wild child is there on the surface to be seen – underneath that, vulnerable and sweet as sugarcane. This will probably sound either vain or like I have ‘rescue fantasy’ (and indeed I may do) – but a strong part of the attraction for me is that she has let me see all those sides, willingly. She has collapsed a lot of the walls for me. And even if that’s something she’s done purely because I’m her friend, it’s proved incredibly powerful.”
I can understand that. It’s extremely seductive when someone does that. I don’t mean sexually but emotionally.
“Here on LwL (though I recognise that in writing people can seem quite different) you give off signs of being bold and tough – the sort of person who wears heart on sleeve and has no time for BS or timewasting. [I mean all this as a compliment – I like people with those character attributes and I purposely don’t pick ‘easy route’ people to talk to, in life or on here.]. Do you think you come across the same or different offline?”
Oh, no, I don’t wear my heart on my sleeve. I’m difficult to get to know, and I hold a lot back, particularly with your side. (I’m talking about the emotional stuff or info about my past.) That being said, there are people I can meet who will share something personal about themselves and if I feel a simpatico, I can let down my guard down. It kind of depends on the situation and the person. And I’ve been told I’m a good listener, so people tell me A LOT of personal stuff, which also kind of baffles me because I’m not outwardly all that warm. But I don’t usually share that much about me.
I’m not an extroverted person. I have a friend who can go into a room of 50 people she doesn’t know and be completely relaxed and just start talking to anyone (something I greatly admire). I can go into that same room but will be very uncomfortable.
I’ve been told I’m too nice, which baffles me. But I’ve also been told I come across as someone who knows what she wants, which also baffles me. 🙂 And someone told me I walk like I might be a little freaky. Which intrigued me. 🙂
Yes, I am no nonsense, no bullshit. But I’m not particularly confrontational … unless someone pushes me. Or tries to bully me. I will stand up for myself, and I don’t like to be told what to do by people who have NO authority over me (other co-workers!). That ticks me off to no end. And, yes, I have a temper, which can flare out. Sorry. That was long-winded.
“About your ‘type’ – you told me more in the reply about what it’s not, than what it is. What is your type?”
Well, tbh, there’s a type I have in my mind and then there’s who I’m actually drawn to.
My last full-blown LO … kind of boy-next-door, very flirtatious, but I don’t know if I’d call him a professional as the one physical moment we had, he froze.
The one before that … slightly dorky/nerdy but you get him alone in a room … ha ha ha … a whole other side comes out. That kind of describes LO-lite.
“the term possibly hasn’t aged well in political correctness but here on LwL most people seem quite happy with there being men and women”
That’s because we’re all old! 🙂
“I also want to play through with you the part about looking through the phone and discovering lies. Like, say SO put me under real pressure about LO. I don’t think either of these responses are right:
“No, the thought has never crossed my mind”
“Yep, i’ve been obsessing over her almost non stop for two years””
But haven’t you been obsessing? And wasn’t that the cause of you seeming off to her? Why she asked what was going on with you ?
“What would you say is the right level of ‘truth’ to go to here? Thinking of yourself as the SO. ”
We’ve talked about this. 🙂 I’d want you to tell me the truth. Especially if I’d asked about it repeatedly. I wouldn’t jump immediately to the conclusion there was someone else, but if I keep getting a flim-flam answers from you, I might eventually. Would I go through your phone? Idk.
I know people think their SO can’t pick up on limerence. That they hide it well, but I don’t believe that. The SO of course doesn’t know exactly what’s going on, but I don’t see how they can’t pick up on (very) subtle changes in energy and the limerent being present with them. If they don’t, they’re choosing to ignore them (and some of this may be subconscious) or the two people aren’t that in tune anymore.
“I am not in this situation in reality (not under pressure from SO) so don’t worry that what you say will influence anything I actually do – I am not seeking answers. ”
We’ve also talked about this before, but I’m sure there are SOs who wouldn’t want to be told anything (unless things had gone into a PA or were about to). In fact that hook up I had said that. He got SUPER chatty after the event. And said a PA would be a deal breaker for him (this was a general conversation) and if his SO thought a PA was about to happen with someone, he and his SO should be having a conversation.
There’s no universal answer to any of this.
“I mean he has no right to think you’re jonesing for him when it was his idea. If he believes that, instead of being more active, his loss.”
I guess I don’t understand why he reappeared after all this time and then … didn’t follow through. He’s now waited so long to get back to me that it’s rude and inconsiderate. I now question if we were friends at all. So my who-ha is off the table. 🙂
“It was quite insane for a spell. She made me feel like I had to choose one or the other. I said “I really want to be friends with you both. But if you ask me to choose between [LO] and you, then you won’t win.”. She then started to back down and see she was being unreasonable, or at least couldn’t ‘win’ by her stance.”
This sounds kind of over the top to me. How close are you getting to these women? 🙂
I’m just thinking back to when I went a little bonkers when someone replaced me … this was a BFF, someone I talked to almost every day on the phone, saw several times a month to hang out with in person, attended some of family’s holiday get- togethers … when I was replaced with his boyfriend, looking back I can see I called too much, emailed too much, pushed too much for us to hang out. It’s not behavior I would (hopefully) do again, but you can at least see why. He and I were probably a little bit enmeshed.
“In the past I had a workplace PPF go right off the jealous deep end when my LO3 turned up and replaced her (in her perception) as my new work best friend. She sabotaged her friendship with me and tried to sabotage it for me with xLO, but failed to. She was insanely jealous level, the latest one just jealous.”
So a work friend or a friend you hung out with one-on-one outside of work?
So a second one did that jealous thing? So now we have a pattern. 🙂
I once had a close work friend (only saw her at work, but we talked a lot about personal stuff) replace me with someone else at work, and it stung. It definitely stung but I never said or did anything about it. She and I had to interact for work, and I was pleasant but pulled way back.
“I can understand that. It’s extremely seductive when someone does that. I don’t mean sexually but emotionally.”
It’s kind of funny, but tiring, watching much of the rest of the world misread her (like that female friend I discussed yesterday, and our boss who is hopeless with her, etc etc). I’m like “but you don’t really know her”. She hasn’t given them that privilege.
“Oh, no, I don’t wear my heart on my sleeve. I’m difficult to get to know, and I hold a lot back, particularly with your side.”
It can be good to hold something back (see above). It adds to the intrigue.
“(I’m talking about the emotional stuff or info about my past.) That being said, there are people I can meet who will share something personal about themselves and if I feel a simpatico, I can let down my guard down.”
Ultimately, your stuff is your stuff and it is your business who to share it with, or not. I have told you before that there is a fair bit of ‘stuff’ in LO’s past. When she shared most of that with me, we were a very long way into knowing each other (some of it after about 5 years, some more than 10 years).
“It kind of depends on the situation and the person. And I’ve been told I’m a good listener, so people tell me A LOT of personal stuff, which also kind of baffles me because I’m not outwardly all that warm.”
Sometimes I listen a lot because I’d rather listen than put my own stuff out there. Does the same go for you?
But listeners can get pigeonholed as listeners, and that can be frustrating when we need to talk.
“I have a friend who can go into a room of 50 people she doesn’t know and be completely relaxed and just start talking to anyone (something I greatly admire). I can go into that same room but will be very uncomfortable.”
That’s LO to a tee, just walks into a room and rolls with it – doesn’t overthink or care what people think. It is one reason I like her – I would feel awkward too, but going into that room with her can take down a lot of my awkwardness.
“And someone told me I walk like I might be a little freaky. Which intrigued me. 🙂”
What is it in your walk?
“Sorry. That was long-winded.”
Remember, you’re talking to me. There is always room for a bit of wind here 🙂 I like to call it ‘exactness’.
“My last full-blown LO … kind of boy-next-door, very flirtatious, but I don’t know if I’d call him a professional as the one physical moment we had, he froze.”
Ah – all mouth and no trousers?!
“The one before that … slightly dorky/nerdy but you get him alone in a room … ha ha ha … a whole other side comes out. That kind of describes LO-lite.”
Interesting that you still want to get that kind of guy in a room, to find out. It isn’t how I imagined your type to be.
“That’s because we’re all old! 🙂”
With age comes wisdom and experience. Tell MJ if you see him!
“But haven’t you been obsessing? And wasn’t that the cause of you seeming off to her?”
Yes. But I judged that – in the context of who SO is and ‘who we are’ – that hitting her square between the eyeballs with that information was not the best approach. I get that it is what you’d prefer in the situation though.
“Why she asked what was going on with you ?”
It was always ‘are you OK?’ more than questions being asked in a directly suspicious way.
“I know people think their SO can’t pick up on limerence. That they hide it well, but I don’t believe that. The SO of course doesn’t know exactly what’s going on, but I don’t see how they can’t pick up on (very) subtle changes in energy and the limerent being present with them.”
I am not one of those people. I don’t believe I totally hid it and I do believe my SO knew something was off. She just didn’t confront it in so many words. This made me think she didn’t want the confirmation.
“That hook up I had said that. He got SUPER chatty after the event. And said a PA would be a deal breaker for him (this was a general conversation) and if his SO thought a PA was about to happen with someone, he and his SO should be having a conversation.”
Did he have an SO then? And went on the App anyway? I didn’t realise that.
“So my who-ha is off the table. 🙂”
Good 🙂.
“This sounds kind of over the top to me. How close are you getting to these women? 🙂”
I have been friends with her for 11 years and we hang out outside of work – have done all the way through. But this one is nothing more, and never has been.
[“In the past I had a workplace PPF go right off the jealous deep end …” ]
“So a work friend or a friend you hung out with one-on-one outside of work?”
I hung with her outside of work too. But like the one above, there was nothing other than friendship. This one I am no longer friends with (direct result of what I described) – I think she used me.
“I once had a close work friend (only saw her at work, but we talked a lot about personal stuff) replace me with someone else at work, and it stung.”
I think this is a thing women focus on and worry about much more than men do – about being the ‘best’ friend. Men are quite happy to have multiple friends at the same or similar level without any of them needing to be ‘best’. If that female friend described above had understood that, we might still be friends. Though I now consider it a lucky escape.
LaR and Marcia,
Sorry to intrude but I feel a need to say —
“I think this is a thing women focus on and worry about much more than men do – about being the ‘best’ friend. Men are quite happy to have multiple friends at the same or similar level without any of them needing to be ‘best’.”
LaR, please take me out of your “women” here and put me close to your “men” group, who often did not want to or felt uncomfortable to include me.
The jealousy stuff among women is really tiresome in both cultures… Focusing on my books is much more fulfilling…
So I ended up in the middle mostly, as a social lone-wolf.
Snow – Yes!
Dame Marcia likes me to deliver my messages straight, without the flim-flam! But that’s one I should have expressed as ‘a majority of’ or ‘many’ women instead of seeming to generalise all!
Welcome to being an honorary man in the world of LaR!
LaR,
“It’s kind of funny, but tiring, watching much of the rest of the world misread her (like that female friend I discussed yesterday, and our boss who is hopeless with her, etc etc). I’m like “but you don’t really know her”. She hasn’t given them that privilege.”
Ah. But does that make you feel special in some way? That you are one of the few who knows her. (It’s not a criticism.)
“It can be good to hold something back (see above). It adds to the intrigue.”
Oh, no. I just don’t really trust your side. Or something happens when sex gets involved that blocks me. It’s me. My crap.
“Ultimately, your stuff is your stuff and it is your business who to share it with, or not. I have told you before that there is a fair bit of ‘stuff’ in LO’s past. When she shared most of that with me, we were a very long way into knowing each other (some of it after about 5 years, some more than 10 years).”
Depending on the level of friendship … I can be very open. That’s probably what’s gotten me into trouble with some of these male friendships. Too much closeness and they assumed other stuff was on the table ? Is that possible?
“Sometimes I listen a lot because I’d rather listen than put my own stuff out there. ”
I’m the same way.
“But listeners can get pigeonholed as listeners, and that can be frustrating when we need to talk.”
Completely! Sometimes the best talkers are HORRIBLE listeners.
“That’s LO to a tee, just walks into a room and rolls with it – doesn’t overthink or care what people think. It is one reason I like her – I would feel awkward too, but going into that room with her can take down a lot of my awkwardness.”
I mean, I can do it. I have done it, but my whole body is clenching internally. And I’m looking at my watch: How long do I have to stay?
“What is it in your walk?”
You can’t tell something from the way a woman moves?
I had a female friend comment on it many years earlier. She didn’t say what the guy said but she commented on it.
“There is always room for a bit of wind here 🙂 I like to call it ‘exactness’.”
We need to work on your word usage. 🙂
[“My last full-blown LO … kind of boy-next-door, very flirtatious, but I don’t know if I’d call him a professional as the one physical moment we had, he froze.”]
“Ah – all mouth and no trousers?!”
What I meant was … I had to make the first move. Usually, I would just maneuver myself into a situation for that to happen or say something REALLY obvious (I’ve learned your side does not pick up on subtlety) and then let the guy make the move.
“Interesting that you still want to get that kind of guy in a room, to find out. ”
Well, it was the attraction. But they both got aggressive (in a good way) when I got them alone.
“It isn’t how I imagined your type to be.”
Me, neither. 🙂
[“That’s because we’re all old! 🙂”]
“With age comes wisdom and experience.”
I meant we’re all too old to refer to different gender identities. It’s not meant to be offensive; it’s just not something we grew up with. Meaning: Our age is showing!
“Tell MJ if you see him!”
I never see him! He’s on the “No Access to Who-Ha” List, too! 🙂
“It was always ‘are you OK?’ more than questions being asked in a directly suspicious way.”
But how would she know that whatever you were going through had to do with your LO? If I had an SO and he seemed off, I wouldn’t automatically assume that had something to do with one of his friends. Or some woman at work he might have a thing for. Are you sure your SO even had a clue?
“Did he have an SO then? And went on the App anyway? I didn’t realise that.”
No. It was a hypothetical conversation.
[“So my who-ha is off the table. 🙂”]
“Good 🙂.”
I’m half-tempted to respond, if he ever does reappear, “Gimme a break. Do you think you’re George Clooney?” I don’t mean to sound rude, but most men aren’t so tempting to me that I have trouble saying no. But in all seriousness … I just don’t get it. Why reappear after all that time … only to flake? I didn’t seek him out. I never would have thought of contacting him.
“I have been friends with her for 11 years and we hang out outside of work – have done all the way through. But this one is nothing more, and never has been.”
I get that she is a platonic friend. I wasn’t implying otherwise. But why is she so possessive? I’m not saying she doesn’t see the friendship as platonic. I’m asking … are you getting too close to these women? I will admit to being possessive/jealous in general, but I’ve never asked someone to choose and I’d only get as jealous as you’re describing if I was very close to the person.
Or is it a female competition thing? Because women can get weirdly competitive. And this is a slightly different angle to this … but I’ve started jobs and gotten some attention from some of the men because I’m new, and the women will be unfriendly to me. And I don’t think they want those guys; they just don’t want their attention going to me.
“This one I am no longer friends with (direct result of what I described) – I think she used me.”
In what way?
“I think this is a thing women focus on and worry about much more than men do – about being the ‘best’ friend. ”
The sting wasn’t only because she replaced me. I told her something she didn’t want to hear and and she most pointedly all but removed herself from our friendship. She was friendly but talked to me/told me a lot less. Thus, I also pulled back. I never said anything about it to her. For me to have “the conversation” about what’s happening, again, they have to be a very close friend. (I did have one with that male friend of mine I wrote about.)
That’s what I’m saying … how close are you getting to these women? It’s not an accusation; I’m just asking.
I went off the deep end with that one friend because he was more like a BFF/partner/family member. We were very close.
“Men are quite happy to have multiple friends at the same or similar level without any of them needing to be ‘best’. ”
Kind of like how you are with women. 🙂
“Ah. But does that make you feel special in some way? That you are one of the few who knows her. (It’s not a criticism.)”
Yes, it really does.
“Depending on the level of friendship … I can be very open. That’s probably what’s gotten me into trouble with some of these male friendships. Too much closeness and they assumed other stuff was on the table ? Is that possible?”
Yes. Men – I include me – aren’t generally good at recognising the difference, I have learned from my time here.
“Completely! Sometimes the best talkers are HORRIBLE listeners.”
I avoid that sort of person if I can. I’m not saying I always expect things to be tit-for-tat, but a real friend for me needs to be able to talk and listen at different times.
“I mean, I can do it. I have done it, but my whole body is clenching internally. And I’m looking at my watch: How long do I have to stay?”
I know how that feels. SO can be a bit like that – needs to schedule sofa time for herself to compensate after too much socialising.
“You can’t tell something from the way a woman moves?”
I can – but I was interested in what specifically about your walk was deemed ‘funny” by that guy.
[“There is always room for a bit of wind here 🙂 I like to call it ‘exactness’.”]
“We need to work on your word usage. 🙂”
I know you are pulling my leg about this, so don’t ever think I’m getting offended. I have been trying hard in my messages lately to cut my words down! You have a skill with that. But it comes to how I was taught to write – I want to be so accurate (generally – not specific to LwL) that my meaning can’t be misunderstood or twisted. And sometimes to do that means …. lots of words, words, beautiful words!! I was the sort of kid who used to write for fun. I don’t often advertise that 🙂
“Usually, I would just maneuver myself into a situation for that to happen or say something REALLY obvious (I’ve learned your side does not pick up on subtlety) and then let the guy make the move.”
Probably we have never been good at picking up on subtlety, but I have another point here. I realise it could be opening a can of worms, but since MeToo, a lot of men feel afraid to make a move. I would not want to be a young man these days trying to attract a woman, as I would be afraid to try and wouldn’t know what was allowed.
Consent is really important and I am not trying to trivialise what men did to make MeToo a real thing – it is a force for good that women spoke up and banged men to rights. But now – I think it has to be so so obvious that a woman wants something, to make the man confident to act. The ‘gentlemanly’ think to do is just to wait for the woman to act. But some women don’t want that – they want an old fashioned male approach, and any ‘negotiation’ around it is moodkill.
“But how would she know that whatever you were going through had to do with your LO?
… Are you sure your SO even had a clue?”
No not totally sure. I had other plausible deniability. When I had that spell of not spending any more time with LO than I had to, SO noticed the changed pattern and questioned me quite a lot about that. She could also probably see how my mood changed for good and bad when I had been around LO – ‘the high then the low’.
“But in all seriousness … I just don’t get it. Why reappear after all that time … only to flake? I didn’t seek him out. I never would have thought of contacting him.”
I reckon he’ll be back eventually. It doesn’t add up otherwise.
“I’m asking … are you getting too close to these women?”
Arguably with this one yes. She’s quite a bit older than me and relies on me more than I’d like.
“Or is it a female competition thing? Because women can get weirdly competitive.”
Yes an element of that I think. ‘I have known him longer than you, who do you think you are?’ type thing
[“This one I am no longer friends with (direct result of what I described) – I think she used me.”]
“In what way?”
This story might go on a bit. We were doing a qualification together – that’s how we met. It is an awful story but during the course, her boyfriend got blind drunk one night, hit her, all in front of their small son and she chucked him out. After that she had no car, so I gave her lifts to the course, I gave her loads of emotional and practical support to allow her to complete the course, and I babysat the son from time to time. The qualification helped me progress at work. I then recommended her to my employers and she got a job there off the back of that.
I did all of that willingly and if the next bits of the story didn’t happen, would have never had a problem with any of it.
Several things then happened. When I started dating SO, this friend met her and wasn’t all that nice to her (her behaviour was a little like the other friend’s from above). I found out she had backchatted not nice things about SO to another friend from the course.
Then about a year later a new woman came to work there and we became mutually attracted. The friend hated that I wanted to hang out with the crush more than her, and had a really good go at sabotaging that too. Our relationship deteriorated properly after that.
Eventually there was staff cuts in the department and I was moved sideways – unjustly in mine and most people’s opinions at the time. She could have done something about that, but just looked out for herself. That’s her prerogative, but it was like she had forgotten all the kindness I showed her previously. She was basically happy to just leapfrog me in a job that I got her in the first place.
Ultimately she wasn’t the person I thought she was. And it grinds my gears when I get somebody that wrong.
“The sting wasn’t only because she replaced me. I told her something she didn’t want to hear and and she most pointedly all but removed herself from our friendship.”
There’s none so blind as those who don’t want to see.
“Thus, I also pulled back. I never said anything about it to her. For me to have “the conversation” about what’s happening, again, they have to be a very close friend. (I did have one with that male friend of mine I wrote about.)”
I agree with your stance. It has to be a pretty important friendship to be bothered with that. With the one I was talking about above, I just walked. It isn’t often worth trying to salvage if one person checks out.
[“Men are quite happy to have multiple friends at the same or similar level without any of them needing to be ‘best’.”]
“Kind of like how you are with women. 🙂”
Yeah OK – well done 🥇
LaR,
“Yes, it really does.”
Is your LO a woman who is very attractive and has few female friends? Is she like that line in the song by the Eagles? “She has a lot of pretty, pretty boys she calls friends.” 🙂
“Yes. Men – I include me – aren’t generally good at recognising the difference, I have learned from my time here.”
I think it’s because women can get emotionally close to their female friends and there’s no expectation of sex. Whereas men don’t get as close to their male friends. (I’m speaking generally.) So the people they do get close to are women. And with women come sex and romance.
“I avoid that sort of person if I can. I’m not saying I always expect things to be tit-for-tat, but a real friend for me needs to be able to talk and listen at different times.”
ITA. If I meet someone new and we have a conversation in which they don’t ask me even one question or they do all the talking or they ask a question and then immediately take the conversation back to themselves, I don’t seek them out again. I’m not a therapist. I’m not getting paid to listen. 🙂
“I know how that feels. SO can be a bit like that – needs to schedule sofa time for herself to compensate after too much socialising.”
Yes! It’s draining.
“I can – but I was interested in what specifically about your walk was deemed ‘funny” by that guy.”
FREAKY. Not funny. It’s a sexual reference.
“But it comes to how I was taught to write – I want to be so accurate (generally – not specific to LwL) that my meaning can’t be misunderstood or twisted.”
More words doesn’t necessarily equate to better meaning. Sometimes they dilute the message. 🙂
“I was the sort of kid who used to write for fun. I don’t often advertise that 🙂”
Fantasy or science fiction? 🙂
“I realise it could be opening a can of worms, but since MeToo, a lot of men feel afraid to make a move. … But now – I think it has to be so so obvious that a woman wants something, to make the man confident to act.”
I agree with you. It’s swung so far the other direction that people (both sides) are afraid to do anything.
“The ‘gentlemanly’ think to do is just to wait for the woman to act. But some women don’t want that – they want an old fashioned male approach, and any ‘negotiation’ around it is moodkill.”
It’s a complete moodkill. Now, that’s my opinion. I used to be on this other site that had younger female posters and I’d say a majority of them were fine with the man asking for a kiss (this would be the first move). Whereas I look at it as the equivalent someone dragging a needle across a record at a party — with that horrible screeching sound — that causes everyone to stop dancing.
That being said, when I wrote I was obvious … I was REALLY obvious. Something along the lines of (I’m paraphrasing here) … “I’m making a pass at you. What do you say?” I know that lacks all finesse, but I have found that if I’m not that obvious, your side doesn’t pick up on the meaning.
Or … if you follow me or I follow you into a dark room and we’re alone, do either of us really need to get consent?
“When I had that spell of not spending any more time with LO than I had to, SO noticed the changed pattern and questioned me quite a lot about that. She could also probably see how my mood changed for good and bad when I had been around LO – ‘the high then the low’.”
So when she asked if you were ok, she specifically referenced your LO? Asked if this had something to do with your friendship with your LO? That she noticed you hadn’t been spending as much time together?
“I reckon he’ll be back eventually. It doesn’t add up otherwise.”
Or he’s just doing “the feelout” to see what his options are.
“She’s quite a bit older than me and relies on me more than I’d like.”
In what way? Asks for too much help or favors?
“When I started dating SO, this friend met her and wasn’t all that nice to her (her behaviour was a little like the other friend’s from above). I found out she had backchatted not nice things about SO to another friend from the course.
“Then about a year later a new woman came to work there and we became mutually attracted. The friend hated that I wanted to hang out with the crush more than her, ”
So that would bother me if I was your SO. Obviously, if you’re in the same department, for example, you can’t avoid the person. But to seek them out and hang out … to me, that’s crossing the line. That’s pursuit. You can yell at me if you want to. I’m ready. 🙂
“She could have done something about that, but just looked out for herself. That’s her prerogative, but it was like she had forgotten all the kindness I showed her previously. She was basically happy to just leapfrog me in a job that I got her in the first place.
Ultimately she wasn’t the person I thought she was. And it grinds my gears when I get somebody that wrong.”
I’m sorry. She’s opportunistic. When you were giving her all that help after her domestic violence issue … did you two discuss your friendship? That it was platonic?
“There’s none so blind as those who don’t want to see.”
I wasn’t mean when I said it, but we’d discussed a certain topic ad nauseam. FOR YEARS. An issue she refused to do anything about and complained about, and I said I couldn’t talk about it anymore (I said it a little more nicely). I don’t regret saying it, but she just moved on to another person who would listen to that particular issue.
“I agree with your stance. It has to be a pretty important friendship to be bothered with that.”
Totally agree. When deciding to have a serious conversation about the friendship, I have to be a.) close to the person; b.) think they have the listening ears to hear me; c.) think the friendship is worth fixing.
“With the one I was talking about above, I just walked. It isn’t often worth trying to salvage if one person checks out.”
Exactly. Or if you find out something about them that you can’t get beyond, i.e. the friend above.
[“Men are quite happy to have multiple friends at the same or similar level without any of them needing to be ‘best’.”]
[Kind of like how you are with women. 🙂]
“Yeah OK – well done 🥇”
You’re supposed to negate that. It demoralizes me to know that.
Marcia,
[“Men are quite happy to have multiple friends at the same or similar level without any of them needing to be ‘best’.”]
[Kind of like how you are with women. 🙂]
[“Yeah OK – well done 🥇]
“You’re supposed to negate that. It demoralizes me to know that.”
I would negate it if it’s about relationships. But it was in the context about friends. When you replied ‘kind of like you are with women’ I just thought you were joking with me about my female friends. I can hardly fight back on the fact I have plenty of female friends as I have said it to you many times.
On the other side, I don’t line women up in queues (I neither want to, or would have the opportunity to!). Across my 9 or so year relationship with SO, there has been the one crush/mutual LO (I will discuss that more later in this message but it was nipped in the bud quickly), and MFF, where I have failed to nip it in the bud quickly. But that’s been all. 2 people, not a whole party full of them.
“Is your LO a woman who is very attractive and has few female friends? Is she like that line in the song by the Eagles? “She has a lot of pretty, pretty boys she calls friends.” 🙂”
I like that song, but no, that’s not her. She is not an MPDG. I think when she was younger she moved in circles where a lot of men would naturally orbit. The version of her I know would rather have a few quality friends (male or female) than a load of orbiters. She’s not dangling it to everyone out there.
“I think it’s because women can get emotionally close to their female friends and there’s no expectation of sex. Whereas men don’t get as close to their male friends. (I’m speaking generally.) So the people they do get close to are women.”
Fair. Male to male friendships are a strange beast. I think younger men might be getting better at it. It’s a cliche but my oldest male friend (the one who I discussed before re that FWB proposal to a woman) and I just discuss sports 95% of the time.
“I don’t seek them out again. “I’m not a therapist. I’m not getting paid to listen. 🙂”
It’s good awareness to get out of those ones early. You asked me before how I get used. That is how I get used on the whole. For my ears.
“FREAKY. Not funny. It’s a sexual reference.”
Now I understand. It doesn’t translate too well between our two forms of English. ‘Freaky’ here is normally used to mean ,
‘weird’ – with negative connotations. I get you now.
“More words doesn’t necessarily equate to better meaning. Sometimes they dilute the message. 🙂”
Yeah but it’s sometimes a tradeoff between accuracy and dilution.
“Fantasy or science fiction? 🙂”
Fantasy of course! 🙂
“It’s a complete moodkill. Now, that’s my opinion. I used to be on this other site that had younger female posters and I’d say a majority of them were fine with the man asking for a kiss (this would be the first move).Whereas I look at it as the equivalent someone dragging a needle across a record at a party — with that horrible screeching sound — that causes everyone to stop dancing.”
I’m OK in principle with asking a woman if I can kiss her. That’s some serious misjudged space invasion if she doesn’t want me to. But we used to find ways of communicating it without saying it – if I was even in a position to be able to go for a kiss, it was a fair bet the person at least didn’t mind the prospect. Like how many times have you had a man try to kiss you who you haven’t wanted the kiss from? I can remember just twice ever that I misjudged that with women and they refused the kiss. It was cringe.
“along the lines of … I’m making a pass at you. What do you say?”
I could find that quite cool if someone was that forward and removed all doubt. Have you read the book or seen the movie ‘Atonement’? There is a passage like that in there where the woman accidentally discovers a note the guy wrote but never intended to send. I couldn’t repeat it on here but it broke down all barriers between them!
“Or … if you follow me or I follow you into a dark room and we’re alone, do either of us really need to get consent?”
From the male perspective that depends a lot on who followed who.
“So when she asked if you were ok, she specifically referenced your LO?”
No. They were conversations at different times. Some of the ‘are you OK?’ was when I was still up to my neck in the LE, some later when I was trying to kill it. But no, LO was not mentioned in the same breath as ‘are you OK’. A few times jokingly ‘have you two fallen out?’
[“She’s quite a bit older than me and relies on me more than I’d like.”]
“In what way? Asks for too much help or favors?”
Emotional support, listening (she’s single) and occasional practical support at work. She is not the greatest or the worst listener – tries enough if I need her to and has got better over time.
“So that would bother me if I was your SO. Obviously, if you’re in the same department, for example, you can’t avoid the person. But to seek them out and hang out … to me, that’s crossing the line. That’s pursuit. You can yell at me if you want to. I’m ready. 🙂”
I wouldn’t yell at you for that. With this woman, it was the only other time I was out of line during my relationship with SO. I would call her an LO, one of only four for me ever. I wasn’t rational about it.
The only thing I’d object on is that I wouldn’t call it ‘pursuit’ if the other person is complicit and willing – as she was. She left the job quite soon. We both disclosed and agreed to go NC on the day she left. It was wrapped up within months.
“When you were giving her all that help after her domestic violence issue … did you two discuss your friendship? That it was platonic?”
Never did, never felt the need. It was more of a brother-sister thing.
“I wasn’t mean when I said it, but we’d discussed a certain topic ad nauseam. FOR YEARS. An issue she refused to do anything about and complained about, and I said I couldn’t talk about it anymore (I said it a little more nicely).”
What was the issue/topic, if you can say?
“Totally agree. When deciding to have a serious conversation about the friendship, I have to be a.) close to the person; b.) think they have the listening ears to hear me; c.) think the friendship is worth fixing.”
A lot to line up, and if a friendship hypothetically has enough about it that you can line all that up, it is unlikely it would have drifted so far south to begin with to need that. I have probably fixed 2 or 3 like that in my life, but they were after disagreements on specific matters, not general drift.
LaR,
“I would negate it if it’s about relationships. But it was in the context about friends. When you replied ‘kind of like you are with women’ I just thought you were joking with me about my female friends. ”
I wasn’t clear. I meant collecting women (not friends).
“On the other side, I don’t line women up in queues (I neither want to, or would have the opportunity to!).”
Well … which is it? You don’t want to or the opportunities don’t present themselves? (Sorry. Had to ask.) I have a middle-aged, male acquaintance who works with a LOT of young women and I asked if that bothered his wife and he said she knows those women don’t want him. That doesn’t seem like the greatest response.
“Across my 9 or so year relationship with SO, there has been the one crush/mutual LO (I will discuss that more later in this message but it was nipped in the bud quickly), and MFF, where I have failed to nip it in the bud quickly. But that’s been all. 2 people, not a whole party full of them.”
You’re such a limerent. For guys who line up women, I doubt they’re limerent for all of them (or even any of them).
“She is not an MPDG.”
I hate that term. I don’t understand why the type of woman would be appealing. I was thinking more the femme fatale type with a lot of orbiters and no one can tell which one she really wants, which one she ‘s hooking up with. Could be more than one. 🙂 Don’t take that fantasy away from me. 🙂
“It’s a cliche but my oldest male friend (the one who I discussed before re that FWB proposal to a woman) and I just discuss sports 95% of the time.”
OMG. I would literally rather discuss health insurance plans. 🙂
[“FREAKY. Not funny. It’s a sexual reference.”]
“Now I understand. It doesn’t translate too well between our two forms of English. ‘Freaky’ here is normally used to mean ,
‘weird’ – with negative connotations. I get you now.”
That’s why I included the description. I thought the word might mean something different in your neck of the woods.
“Yeah but it’s sometimes a tradeoff between accuracy and dilution.”
So years ago musical artists used to release extended versions of their songs. So instead of it being the 4-minute single you heard on the radio, the song would be extended to 10 minutes. I’ve yet to hear an extended version I thought was better or even really necessary, even if I really like the song. 🙂
“Fantasy of course! 🙂”
I have your number! 🙂
“Like how many times have you had a man try to kiss you who you haven’t wanted the kiss from?”
Once, that I can think of. Coming at with with that grandpa pucker! OMG. I pretended I didn’t notice and practically jumped toward my porch (he was dropping me off; I thought we were out as friends.) Now, there have been times guys have gotten handsy that I didn’t invite — putting their arm around me or touching my lower back, etc.
“I can remember just twice ever that I misjudged that with women and they refused the kiss. It was cringe.”
That would be cringe. What did they do? Turn their cheek to you?
I have misjudged interest. Particularly when I was younger. Couldn’t tell the difference between friendly and FRIENDly.
[“along the lines of … I’m making a pass at you. What do you say?”]
“I could find that quite cool if someone was that forward and removed all doubt. ”
I would only do that if nothing had ever happened between us. If we were going from 0 to 360 and they seemed a bit clueless about my intentions. Although I will admit to liking the element of surprise. 🙂
Like you wrote, often it’s kind of mutual. Nothing really needs to be said.
“Have you read the book or seen the movie ‘Atonement’? ”
I’ve seen the movie, though it’s been a while. I found the tone of it kind of strange.
[“Or … if you follow me or I follow you into a dark room and we’re alone, do either of us really need to get consent?”’
“From the male perspective that depends a lot on who followed who.”
Really? Why does it matter? I can’t think of anything more obvious.
“They were conversations at different times. Some of the ‘are you OK?’ was when I was still up to my neck in the LE, some later when I was trying to kill it. But no, LO was not mentioned in the same breath as ‘are you OK’. A few times jokingly ‘have you two fallen out?’”
Then I’m not sure how you can infer she knows you’re going through something with your LO and that she’s leaving you to work it out.
“Emotional support, listening (she’s single) and occasional practical support at work. ”
What do you do when someone wants more from you than you’d like to give? In all honesty. (Do you let them know? :))
“The only thing I’d object on is that I wouldn’t call it ‘pursuit’ if the other person is complicit and willing – as she was. ”
Pursuit of your feelings. That’s what I meant. Are you looking for her at work? “Bumping” into her? Trying to talk with her? Trying to have lunch? Texting after work, etc? That’s acting on your feelings. IMO.
“We both disclosed and agreed to go NC on the day she left.”
So what was said? (As much as you can tell me.) With the disclosures from LO-lite and my LO, they were more mutual admissions of interest. But they weren’t “feelings” discussions, which I wouldn’t have expected from either one given how well I knew them. If I had been the one to broach the subject first, I would have gone the same route. I would reserve heavier, “emotions” discussions for after we got involved a bit. That seems too heavy right away. But that’s me.
“Never did, never felt the need. It was more of a brother-sister thing.”
It seems a lot of help to give to someone you’re not looking to bang. 🙂
I want to be clear: I do think men and women can be friends. I just think it gets tricky. I think with my guy friend (and I didn’t realize it at the time) … he has a need to provide for a woman (for lack of a better description), which he did with me and then transferred to his girlfriend. So it kind of felt like he didn’t need me anymore. Which stung.
“What was the issue/topic, if you can say?”
Personal relationship issues, which will never improve, given how he described the participants.
“A lot to line up, and if a friendship hypothetically has enough about it that you can line all that up, it is unlikely it would have drifted so far south to begin with to need that. I have probably fixed 2 or 3 like that in my life, but they were after disagreements on specific matters, not general drift.”
With two I can think of, there was general drift. They got distracted by something shinier. With one it was abrupt falling off the planet. With one, we’d had a snafu (we got a little testy with each other) and hadn’t spoken since and I later was trying to discuss what happened. And then the person called me out for bringing it up. And that let me know that this was not someone I could continue to be friends with because I wouldn’t be able to discuss anything.
“She is not an MPDG.”
I had to google that, as I had no idea wth it meant.
It’s funny cause that is really what my wife’s cousin is. And I had a pretty hard crush on her when I first met her back when we first got married. She was the positive, optimistic, spirited, high on life, joyful to my pessimistic, cynical, nihilistic, depressive, apathetic self. But somehow it was appealing. It’s only happened with her, and I can still (they don’t live close to us anymore) feel that weird happy glow happen when we (my wife and I) talk to her on the phone. It’s the damndest thing. I don’t really like it but it still happens. Now if you will excuse me I have some Nietzsche I need to read after posting this.
We’ve had one poster on LwL with an MPDG as an LO. His name is Fred. He hasn’t posted in several years but his story was very entertaining.
I think he gave his LO an equity position in his company.
Adam 🎩 🍺,
“Now if you will excuse me I have some Nietzsche I need to read after posting this.”
I could not help wondering all the morning today about how your mind is simultaneously get along with reading Nietzsche (who loudest cried out, “God is dead”), drinking (he only drank milk), and going to church to listen to God’s voice on the weekend … 🤔
I’m struggling with my dizziness, sleepiness, and head “emptiness” due to my hereditary low-blood pressure (85s-45s) yesterday, today, and tomorrow (?) when it’s so hot outside (94-97 F ) 🥴 🥴 😵
Miss Snow
I’d like to say it is because I am a complicated man, but that is not the truth. Nietzsche’s cry that “God is dead” is what appealed to me initially to read his works.
Religion (Christianity in specific) had a huge impact on my young life and into my 20’s and when I met my wife. I left religion a very angry and bitter person. I hated God and religion. I became cynical and nihilistic. So for me “God is dead” just reaffirmed my bitterness. But I have greatly mellowed out in my older age. I have come to realize that it doesn’t matter if God is dead or alive or ever even existed. It’s what the Bible can teach me about being the person that Jesus was to the best of my ability. Was Jesus just a good man or the son of God? Does it matter? No, his message does.
I care less about denomination, sect or tradition and even who is “right” as I do about bettering myself as a person. And the church that I go to makes me feel like it is the place that I can do that. The pastor gives amazing sermons that make me think about who I am as a person better I think that I have ever heard in a church before.
Due to two different uncontrolled circumstance I have missed the last two Sunday sermons and I am starting to miss them. So I have to make sure I get to church this Sunday.
I think Nietzsche still appeals to me because it is not about what reward (heaven) or punishment (hell) we get for our actions from some omnipotent god but to be who we should be because we should be.
Like should I have not chased after LO because the result of that decision might have ended my employment, or resulted in a divorce or loosing contact with my boys? Or because it was the right thing to not put her in that position, in the first place, for any of those things to possibly happen? Is NC to protect myself or because she deserves to move on with her life, unhindered by my behavior? As much as I would like her to have stayed in my life, even after limerence, the right thing is to let her go. For her.
I can’t control if Momma forgives and/or forgets. But I can control that I do not intrude on some other woman’s life again like I did hers. So until, or if, I see the pearly gates or the 7th circle of hell, all that matters is how I treat others on the time that I have on this planet.
So I googled MPDG too and this hilarious description is what I found (it seems to be a „trope“ in films):
„Let’s say you’re a soulful, brooding male hero, living a sheltered, emotionless existence. If only someone could come along and open your heart to the great, wondrous adventure of life…
Have no fear, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl is here to give new meaning to the male hero’s life! She’s beautiful (albeit more “cute” than “hot”), energetic, high on life, full of wacky quirks and idiosyncrasies (generally including childlike playfulness), often with a touch of wild hair dye. She’s inexplicably obsessed with our stuffed-shirt hero, on whom she will focus her kuh-razy antics until he learns to live freely and love madly.
The Manic Pixie Dream Girl may be featured as the Second Love, in order to break the character out of The Mourning After. If he’s a cynic, her goal may be to convince him that Silly Rabbit, Cynicism Is for Losers!“
It goes on to explain „that a Manic Pixie Dream Girl exists solely to help the protagonist find happiness without having any personal goals or romantic needs of her own.“
That’s quite poignant, isn’t it, since we limerents tend to see our objects only in relation to our own needs and happiness, too.
Mila,
A Reddit post wasn’t quite as nice about the description:
“A manic pixie dream girl drops into an average, uninteresting main male protagonist’s life and spends all her time making it much more lively.”
I don’t like the word “manic.” It doesn’t sound attractive to me. It sounds like someone who is bipolar. And then … “pixie.” It sounds elfin, which is, again, not appealing. It’s twee. No, thank you. 🙂
“She’s beautiful (albeit more “cute” than “hot”), energetic, high on life, full of wacky quirks and idiosyncrasies (generally including childlike playfulness), often with a touch of wild hair dye”
Mila,
What are you trying to do to me here – make me think MFF is an MPDG after all?
Please stick to pencil distribution!
@ghostzoned – I know you’re seeing this. Please tell Mila, Adam et al what an MPDG really is!
Marcia,
“A manic pixie dream girl drops into an average, uninteresting main male protagonist’s life and spends all her time making it much more lively.”
I don’t like the word “manic.” It doesn’t sound attractive to me. It sounds like someone who is bipolar. And then … “pixie.” It sounds elfin, which is, again, not appealing. It’s twee. “
Is MPDG sort of Tinker Bell kind of character??
If so, I’m on your camp! I can’t deal with that Tinker for some reasons… she’s so annoying❗️…
If you guys like her, then I feel sorry for you….
Snow,
“Is MPDG sort of Tinker Bell kind of character??”
That’s a good description. Yes.
“If so, I’m on your camp! I can’t deal with that Tinker for some reasons… she’s so annoying❗️…”
ITA. It’s the kind of character you want to punch in the face. 🙂
Marcia,
Yes, I do want to punch that Tinker’s face❗️
I like Bisset kind of elegance… though I totally dislike her game playing and opportunistic nature, and really feel sorry for Napoleon in this regard — the romantically powerless Emperor!
Snow,
“I like Bisset kind of elegance… though I totally dislike her game playing and opportunistic nature, and really feel sorry for Napoleon in this regard — the romantically powerless Emperor!”
I don’t know much about her other than what’s been romanticized and fictionalized. Wikipedia (never a reliable source) said her first husband left her for a year to live with a mistress. (She was only 16 when she married him.) He was also executed for political reasons. Maybe she felt she had to play the game to survive. Her sexuality was her weapon and her defense.
Or she was a professional. A master of the hot and cold. Is it a nice thing to do? No. But you have to be kind of impressed by a woman who has a bunch of spinning plates and then chooses the one she wants.
No guys,
I wanted to make it clear that MPDG can’t be a real person, she‘s an illusion.
It’s something film makers created, a character that shows up only for the male main character. The guy who coined the expression MPDG didn’t like this kind of character (hence the „manic“ I guess) the film industry created. You should stop thinking there are people like that. It’s pure fiction, just like some of us make a fiction out of our LOs.
But the interesting thing is that now I conclude that LaRs MFF has got a „touch of wild hair dye“…
Marcia,
[“On the other side, I don’t line women up in queues (I neither want to, or would have the opportunity to!).”]
“Well … which is it? You don’t want to or the opportunities don’t present themselves?”
I sort of knew you’d pull me up for that! But if we look at it purely logically, why can’t both bits be true simultaneously?
“I have a middle-aged, male acquaintance who works with a LOT of young women and I asked if that bothered his wife and he said she knows those women don’t want him. That doesn’t seem like the greatest response.”
If I said that to SO (even if it was true) I would also be told it was a terrible response!
“You’re such a limerent.”
Guilty your ladyship.
[“She is not an MPDG.”]
“I hate that term. I don’t understand why the type of woman would be appealing. I was thinking more the femme fatale type with a lot of orbiters … ”
I use MPDG a bit lazily to mean the women that seem to have the whole office orbiting them. LO is not that. The idea that these women exist fascinates me! Due to other posters’ interest in the term MPDG, I just Googled it and it seems it is more complicated and contested as a term than I thought.
[“and no one can tell which one she really wants, which one she ‘s hooking up with.” ]
Could be more than one. 🙂 Don’t take that fantasy away from me. 🙂”
You want to be the woman in that fantasy?
[“It’s a cliche but my oldest male friend (the one who I discussed before re that FWB proposal to a woman) and I just discuss sports 95% of the time.”]
“OMG. I would literally rather discuss health insurance plans. 🙂”
I’ve seen 😆
“Years ago musical artists used to release extended versions of their songs. So instead of it being the 4-minute single you heard on the radio, the song would be extended to 10 minutes. I’ve yet to hear an extended version I thought was better or even really necessary, even if I really like the song. 🙂”
The extended versions are often to allow for a solo guitar performance (or other instrument) which can be amazing. What’s your musical tastes and I will see if I can think of an example?
“That would be cringe. What did they do? Turn their cheek to you?”
One did that, but was nice about it.The other, I don’t remember her immediate reaction, but after that she gave me a LOT of verbal about it. She was a work colleague (spot the theme) who I then had to have dealings with after that.
“I have misjudged interest. Particularly when I was younger. Couldn’t tell the difference between friendly and FRIENDly.”
Many men spend their whole lives stuck in that loop!
[“From the male perspective that depends a lot on who followed who.”]
“Really? Why does it matter? I can’t think of anything more obvious.”
Even if the woman went into the dark room first and the man followed? This has nowadays got very complicated for men without asking, even though overall I agree with you.
“Then I’m not sure how you can infer she knows you’re going through something with your LO and that she’s leaving you to work it out.”
I don’t have concrete evidence that she knows. Just a sense. It’s two years of unpredictable effects on my mood at work, and then taking some of whatever that is home, so it is hard to believe she doesn’t somehow pick up on any of it.
“What do you do when someone wants more from you than you’d like to give? In all honesty. (Do you let them know? :))”
Truthfully no, I tend to just stew quietly about it and try to pull away without saying a lot if it gets too much.
“Pursuit of your feelings. That’s what I meant”.
[Ah OK. That is hard to fight. Not impossible
“We both disclosed and agreed to go NC on the day she left.”]
“So what was said? (As much as you can tell me.”
Her: “In another life we’d have got together this summer, wouldn’t we?”
Me: “Yes. This conversation was always going to happen today, wasn’t it? I was going to bring it up if you didn’t”
There was then a long chat where we confirmed mutual feelings and that certain things we’d both done or said in the weeks leading up to it had been driven by that. She then claimed she was rubbish at relationships and that I shouldn’t even think about jeopardising my relationship with SO (she knew her a little, and liked her) for her. We hugged it out. Her SO then picked her up and gave me a lift home 🙄 NC after that apart from a year or so later she friended me on social media, then unfriended me quite quickly.
“With the disclosures from LO-lite and my LO, they were more mutual admissions of interest. But they weren’t “feelings” discussions”
That makes sense given the context you’ve provided re LO-lite.
“It seems a lot of help to give to someone you’re not looking to bang. 🙂”
You have such a way with words 🙂
I know your introduction to me has been my extended chat about my failure to keep one female friendship platonic in my head. But I can be quite a nice platonic friend to women sometimes!
“I think with my guy friend (and I didn’t realize it at the time) … he has a need to provide for a woman (for lack of a better description), which he did with me and then transferred to his girlfriend.”
There might if been a bit of that about my above-described friendship. She did crop up between girlfriends for me, and it was when I got a girlfriend that it started heading south.
“With one, we’d had a snafu (we got a little testy with each other) and hadn’t spoken since and I later was trying to discuss what happened. And then the person called me out for bringing it up. And that let me know that this was not someone I could continue to be friends with because I wouldn’t be able to discuss anything.”
That tells me that that one wasn’t worth it. Because if they were, they would not call you out for bringing it up, but be happy to have the opportunity to resolve it between you.
LaR,
“I sort of knew you’d pull me up for that! But if we look at it purely logically, why can’t both bits be true simultaneously?”
No. I want to be picked because I’m the best option. Not because I’m one of the only options. 🙂
“I use MPDG a bit lazily to mean the women that seem to have the whole office orbiting them. LO is not that. The idea that these women exist fascinates me! ”
It fascinates me, too. I just hate that expression and the definition. My idea of that kind of woman is not an MPDG. She’s not “cute.” She’s not Tinkerbell. She’s the kind of woman who wears f-me pumps and a tight skirt on the dress-down, casual Fridays at work. 🙂
“Due to other posters’ interest in the term MPDG, I just Googled it and it seems it is more complicated and contested as a term than I thought.”
I don’t think even the guy who came up with it meant it as a compliment. It’s a female character who’s one-dimensional, poorly fleshed out and poorly written and who has no other purpose other than to light up so guy’s life.
[Could be more than one. 🙂 Don’t take that fantasy away from me. 🙂”]
“You want to be the woman in that fantasy?”
How do you know I’m not? 🙂 I’m not anymore. Not at my age and not in the current work climate. But I was fairly popular at the job where I met my LO. Every girl’s dream. To be popular with a bunch of married dudes. 🙂
“The extended versions are often to allow for a solo guitar performance (or other instrument) which can be amazing. What’s your musical tastes and I will see if I can think of an example?”
I’m in a Dua Lipa/Lizzo phase right now. “I don’t need him I need a drink …” 🙂
” The other, I don’t remember her immediate reaction, but after that she gave me a LOT of verbal about it. She was a work colleague (spot the theme) who I then had to have dealings with after that.”
You mean in the moment she yelled at you? Or brought it up later on?
“Many men spend their whole lives stuck in that loop!”
I can’t really do it at work. Everyone is so formal anymore. But at a meetup, for example … I can usually tell.
“Even if the woman went into the dark room first and the man followed?”
Ummm … yes. You’re in college and some woman meets you at a party and brings you back to her dorm room. All that’s in the room is her bed! What more do you need?
“It’s two years of unpredictable effects on my mood at work, and then taking some of whatever that is home, so it is hard to believe she doesn’t somehow pick up on any of it.”
So she’s been asking you on and off for TWO years? I don’t mean to harp on it. Just wondering.
“Truthfully no, I tend to just stew quietly about it and try to pull away without saying a lot if it gets too much.”
That’s wimpy. I’m sorry. Not that I haven’t done it. I just kind of backed away. I wish I had handled it differently. I think that is very confusing for people. Now, I’ve gotten better in recent years. I did tell a friend the friendship was over. (This was not a mutual fade; she kept calling and texting.) I did it over text, but I still felt VERY awkward. And I told a family member when I would be available for calls (certain days a week) because this person was calling multiple times a day. Not an easy conversation to have, but they kept repeatedly calling. I’d get 2 calls while I was in the shower, for example.
“There was then a long chat where we confirmed mutual feelings and that certain things we’d both done or said in the weeks leading up to it had been driven by that. ”
Ok. I don’t mean to sound holier than thou, but how would you feel if your SO had this conversation with someone?
The conversation I had with my LO was similar (though not exact) to the first few sentences you had with yours. But it wasn’t a long conversation.
“Her SO then picked her up and gave me a lift home ”
Why did he give you a ride home? I have to be honest: If I’m the SO, I’m feeling like a stooge in all this. Being put in a drama I didn’t know existed and I want no part of and I’ve been made ignorant.
“That makes sense given the context you’ve provided re LO-lite.”
Well, it was a lot sexier than what I’m implying. (Not raunchy or graphic.) Something I’d been waiting to hear. But I’m not clear what else he could have said that wouldn’t have been a little weird, given that we didn’t know each other that well. I didn’t know my LO that well at that point, either. I felt it was the equivalent of some guy asking me out who I really liked and had been hoping would ask me out. But nobody asks someone out and then reveals all their feelings.
[“It seems a lot of help to give to someone you’re not looking to bang. 🙂”]
“You have such a way with words 🙂”
I’m nothing if not poetic. 🙂
“But I can be quite a nice platonic friend to women sometimes!”
And can we see what the operative word is in this sentence ? 🙂
“There might if been a bit of that about my above-described friendship. She did crop up between girlfriends for me, and it was when I got a girlfriend that it started heading south.”
Can you see what that might have been painful for your friend? Obviously, if you start dating someone, you’ll be less available, but there are some people who take it to such an extreme, they fall off the planet.
“That tells me that that one wasn’t worth it. ”
I don’t regret dropping that friendship.
“She’s the kind of woman who wears f-me pumps and a tight skirt on the dress-down, casual Fridays at work. 🙂”
We should be so lucky … I don’t think that happens so much these days. Everything in workplaces is very p-c!
“I don’t think even the guy who came up with it meant it as a compliment. It’s a female character who’s one-dimensional, poorly fleshed out and poorly written and who has no other purpose other than to light up so guy’s life.”
I read about Summer in ‘500 days of Summer’ as a supposed example, but even the actress rejects the label because she thinks the character has more about her than an MPDG.
“Every girl’s dream. To be popular with a bunch of married dudes. 🙂”
If you were that sort if girl you described above, didn’t / can’t that attract the single dudes as much as the married dudes?
“You mean in the moment she yelled at you? Or brought it up later on?”
Not exactly yelled but just a load of verbals about what did I think I was doing? (She had a boyfriend, and I did overstep). Afterwards when it was brought up occasionally, it just became more of a joke and banter between us.
[“Even if the woman went into the dark room first and the man followed?”]
“Ummm … yes. You’re in college and some woman meets you at a party and brings you back to her dorm room. All that’s in the room is her bed! What more do you need?”
Yeah I do get you, but we are being conditioned in certain ways about it now. I have known the odd man to get into real messes afterwards over stuff like this, when there was alcohol involved.
“So she’s been asking you on and off for TWO years? I don’t mean to harp on it. Just wondering.”
No, not consistently for that long. I mean the LE is two years total. There were two spells where I remember getting lots of questions. One was 4-6 months into it when my mental fixation on LO was strongest and I think I wore the pain of trying to fight that on my face. The other was more than a year later when I made a conscious decision to withdraw from LO, and my mood suffered.
[“Truthfully no, I tend to just stew quietly about it and try to pull away without saying a lot if it gets too much.”]
“That’s wimpy. I’m sorry. Not that I haven’t done it. I just kind of backed away.”
I was thinking about this more and I haven’t actually done this (let friends go) many times.
The one who I helped with all the DA etc and who then shafted me at work, we came to blows earlier on the same night that xLO and I disclosed. We shouted at each other. Afterwards nobody addressed that it had happened, it just hung like odour in the air. We just drifted after that. I didn’t have the will to fix it by then, as there was a pattern.
The one who doesn’t like LO, I gave the ultimatum to “don’t make me choose” and that had the desired effect. She apologised for her vendetta, dropped it and we now just don’t mention LO, but we are otherwise back to normal with everything else.
The other one that’s quite funny is a gay guy who mistook me for being gay and made a physical pass at me! I had that out with him and he started trying to rewrite history about what had or hadn’t happened. I got annoyed with him because he wouldn’t admit the truth. I didn’t talk to him for a year after that – he tried ringing or texting periodically but I ignored it. But we have a mutual friend who eventually got us talking again. It took a while but we are fine now (he admitted what he’d done wrong and his attempts at revisionism eventually).
“I did tell a friend the friendship was over. (This was not a mutual fade; she kept calling and texting.) I did it over text, but I still felt VERY awkward.”
Did the friend stop trying after you said that? I think males are very unlikely to say that categorically that a friendship is over.
“Not an easy conversation to have, but they kept repeatedly calling. I’d get 2 calls while I was in the shower, for example.”
Did the family member fall into line with that?
“Ok. I don’t mean to sound holier than thou, but how would you feel if your SO had this conversation with someone?”
I wouldn’t like it, of course. But I do see it as pretty inevitable that people, even in relationships, get attracted to others. So let’s say that happened with my SO. That conversation I had with my xLO was really “yes we now know we’re both attracted, but it ends here as we both have SOs”. If you gave me the pick – imagining if my SO was in that situation – I’d prefer her to have that sort of disclose/close discussion, than a strung out thing more like my recent LE where ‘the thing in the air’ doesn’t ever get directly discussed but just hangs there forever. I know what you might ask me next but no, I’m still not going to disclose it at this point.
“Why did he give you a ride home?”
I think he was picking her up anyway and I just got a lift as it was quite a trek to walk home. She’d told me their relationship was on its last legs by then, and they didn’t last long afterwards.
“Well, it was a lot sexier than what I’m implying. (Not raunchy or graphic.) Something I’d been waiting to hear.”
Dammit, he was doing so well at that point, wasn’t he?
“But nobody asks someone out and then reveals all their feelings.”
But did he reveal quite a lot of feelings in that message? And – I’m guessing – but does it feel inconsistent with how he’s been since you hooked up?
[“But I can be quite a nice platonic friend to women sometimes!”]
“And can we see what the operative word is in this sentence ? 🙂”
It could either be ‘platonic’ or ‘sometimes’??
[“She did crop up between girlfriends for me, and it was when I got a girlfriend that it started heading south.”]
“Can you see what that might have been painful for your friend?”
Sort of, but she made a rod for her own back. I hadn’t intended it to go south with her. I introduced her to SO properly and she wasn’t very nice to her, or about her afterwards. When that pattern repeated with the xLO at our work, I just realised she was a very jealous person. I don’t think she ever had any romantic interest in me, but just got rather attached to the (friend only) attention I paid her, and didn’t want to share it.
LaR,
“We should be so lucky … I don’t think that happens so much these days. Everything in workplaces is very p-c!”
I was kind of joking. Yes, work is very PC.
Still waiting for that long version of a song that is better. 🙂
“If you were that sort if girl you described above, didn’t / can’t that attract the single dudes as much as the married dudes?”
At the job with LO … almost everyone was married. I’m over 30. Did you expect differently? 🙂 There are no single guys at my current job I’d want to date and it’s not a flirty place. Friendly, but not flirty. The meetups I go to have a mixture of marrieds and singles but I can’t think of any single guys I’ve met I want to date, with the exception of one guy I do think is cute but he never talks to me. I’m probably more guarded with the single ones because I don’t want them getting the wrong idea. The atmosphere is not all that flirty at these things, anyway. Or maybe it is and I don’t notice. Maybe I’ve gotten really boring and that part of me died or I’m too careful. Or I’m too old.
“She had a boyfriend, and I did overstep”
So you KNEW she had a boyfriend? You’re as sketchy as I am. 🙂
“I have known the odd man to get into real messes afterwards over stuff like this, when there was alcohol involved.”
Oh, yeah. I can see that. I’d be very leery about getting with someone who seemed to have had too much to drink.
“There were two spells where I remember getting lots of questions. One was 4-6 months into it when my mental fixation on LO was strongest and I think I wore the pain of trying to fight that on my face. ”
So she asked more than just “Are you ok?” (You wrote “lots of questions.”)
[“That’s wimpy. I’m sorry. Not that I haven’t done it. I just kind of backed away.”]
“I was thinking about this more and I haven’t actually done this (let friends go) many times.”
I was more referring to instances where the friend wanted more than you did. You wrote about the one who relied on you too much. I can’t remember having to deal with that specific situation except with that family member.
“We shouted at each other. Afterwards nobody addressed that it had happened, it just hung like odour in the air. We just drifted after that. I didn’t have the will to fix it by then, as there was a pattern.”
Doesn’t sound like she was worth the energy to fix it.
“The one who doesn’t like LO, I gave the ultimatum to “don’t make me choose” and that had the desired effect. She apologised for her vendetta, dropped it and we now just don’t mention LO, but we are otherwise back to normal with everything else.”
Ok. You gave her enough information to know what your boundary was.
“The other one that’s quite funny is a gay guy who mistook me for being gay and made a physical pass at me!”
A fan is a fan. Take the compliment. 🙂
“It took a while but we are fine now (he admitted what he’d done wrong and his attempts at revisionism eventually).”
Well, at least he admitted what he’d done. It can be hard if the person just wants to gloss it over and act like nothing happening. I can get along on a superficial level with someone like that if, for example, mutual friends are involved and we wind up at something together, but it doesn’t mean I want to be friends again.
“Did the friend stop trying after you said that?”
Yes. We hadn’t been friends that long. Maybe 3 or 4 months ? There’d been a couple of red flags but it all culminated in an evening with other people where she acted very strangely (read: Crazy Town). And I decided I was done. And she kept calling and texting afterward. I tried to pull back but she wasn’t getting it. I felt I had to say something.
“Did the family member fall into line with that?”
Yes. But I did struggle with what to say.
“I wouldn’t like it, of course. But I do see it as pretty inevitable that people, even in relationships, get attracted to others.”
Yeah, but we’re not talking about getting attracted. We’re talking about chasing feelings, and for a disclosure to happen, both parties have had to open the door. You don’t just go up to a new person you’re attracted to and disclose.
It’s like limerence. Glimmers happen but limerence flares up when the limerent chases their feelings.
So neither is acceptable, IMO. Both of these examples are putting your feelers out/dabbling when you’re already with someone else.
“I’d prefer her to have that sort of disclose/close discussion, than a strung out thing more like my recent LE where ‘the thing in the air’ doesn’t ever get directly discussed but just hangs there forever. ”
I’d prefer that he walk the hell away from his LO. Whether or not there are feelings should be irrelevant.
“I know what you might ask me next but no, I’m still not going to disclose it at this point.”
I mean … I don’t think any limerent should be disclosing to an unavailable LO. (Go ahead. Yell at me. I’m aware of my 18 shades of contradictions.) HOWEVER, if you are going to disclose … and I’m talking about how I feel as a single woman … be prepared to do something about it. Otherwise, I don’t want to know.
“She’d told me their relationship was on its last legs by then, and they didn’t last long afterwards.”
That’s a little better, I guess.
“Dammit, he was doing so well at that point, wasn’t he?”
He did say a few things I wasn’t crazy about, but the reason things stopped … is me.
“But did he reveal quite a lot of feelings in that message?”
I’m going to paraphrase this as generically as possible … it was basically … I find you attractive and if I wasn’t already with someone, I would have asked you on a date.
[“But I can be quite a nice platonic friend to women sometimes!”]
[“And can we see what the operative word is in this sentence ? 🙂”]
“It could either be ‘platonic’ or ‘sometimes’??”
IT’S OBVIOUSLY “SOMETIMES.” 🙂
“I introduced her to SO properly and she wasn’t very nice to her, or about her afterwards. When that pattern repeated with the xLO at our work, I just realised she was a very jealous person. I don’t think she ever had any romantic interest in me, but just got rather attached to the (friend only) attention I paid her, and didn’t want to share it.”
Ah, ok. Gotcha.
Marcia,
“Still waiting for that long version of a song that is better. 🙂”
Patience is a virtue … I’m thinking on that.
[“If you were that sort if girl you described above, didn’t / can’t that attract the single dudes as much as the married dudes?”]
“At the job with LO … almost everyone was married. I’m over 30. Did you expect differently? 🙂”
Is your experience that the unmarrieds are generally looking for a ‘safer option’ (looking for a wife)? And then once they have one, they start getting tempted by the office ‘foxes’?
“I can’t think of any single guys I’ve met I want to date, with the exception of one guy I do think is cute but he never talks to me.”
Does he seem shy generally? Maybe he is one where you’d have to take the lead and it could open him up quite quickly if you did.
“I’m probably more guarded with the single ones because I don’t want them getting the wrong idea.”
OK – this is an interesting one to pick at what you mean … what is this ‘wrong idea’ that you might give the single guys (as opposed to if you gave that same idea to married guys)?
Do the married people tend to come to these meetup things alone, or with partners?
“The atmosphere is not all that flirty at these things, anyway. Or maybe it is and I don’t notice.”
I tried something like meetup once. I also found it wasn’t all that flirty. I did meet a couple of women at them (yes, I WAS single at the time!) who I could have seen as prospects. But you’d go to future events and there would be a load of different people there, so it was hard work to have regular contact with the same people unless you braved it and asked to swap phone numbers with people, etc.
[“She had a boyfriend, and I did overstep”]
“So you KNEW she had a boyfriend? You’re as sketchy as I am.”
This was a college-days one. Often there were these never-seen ‘boyfriends in the home town’ where it was questionable whether they existed! That one obviously did.
“Oh, yeah. I can see that. I’d be very leery about getting with someone who seemed to have had too much to drink.”
I think you interacted with Bewitched about this point before, but the sheer awkwardness in the culture around all this ‘hooking up’ business means that often there is much drink involved, to even get to that point. That throws in a whole other layer.
My friend at college had an experience of being accused of not having consent the next day, where they had both had lots to drink (and it is important to say – I wasn’t there, and for all I know he may actually not have had consent, so I am not trying to take a side). But hearing it made me even more careful. I’ve been in at least two situations where I refused what was (consensually) offered to me (as in – had got as far as the bed on both these occasions) because I was concerned about whether the women would regret and view it differently the next day.
“So she asked more than just “Are you ok?” (You wrote “lots of questions.”)”
Things like – ‘what’s on your mind?’, ‘what are you worried about?’. The thing is, I did have other very plausible things to be worried about in this spell, so I would fall back on them.
[About relying on too much – I deleted the text accidentally]
“I can’t remember having to deal with that specific situation except with that family member.”
It’s a problem for me in life that I’m relied upon too much – perhaps because I do ‘stew’ on things but don’t get rid of the people in question.
Like, if you want to know the crux of why this LO became ‘an issue’ for me, that’s it there in a nutshell. Too much being relied upon – I wanted someone around me who wasn’t as reliant and could be more reciprocal. That’s not meant to be about/a criticism of SO as much as about the bigger picture at the time.
“Doesn’t sound like she was worth the energy to fix it.”
Definitely not. No regrets. That’s the one reliant person I really have managed to shed, as she pushed my tolerance too far.
“Ok. You gave her enough information to know what your boundary was.”
Yep. If she wants me as a friend she has to buy the package. She doesn’t get to just pick just all the Snickers and Twix out of the box and ignore the coconut Bounties (I have no idea if the cultural reference will carry).
“A fan is a fan. Take the compliment. 🙂”
Yeah, it’s every straight guy in his 30s’ (at the time) fantasy – a hulking guy nearly 20 years your senior after you, and showing it through physical actions! I wasn’t taking my pencils anywhere near that, thank you!
“I can get along on a superficial level with someone like that if, for example, mutual friends are involved and we wind up at something together”
It was like that with him for a while afterwards – we just put it on for mutual friends’ benefit – but eventually I forgave and moved on. It will always be ‘there’ somewhere, but these days it is a bit like it never happened.
“And I decided I was done. And she kept calling and texting afterward. I tried to pull back but she wasn’t getting it.”
All the calling and texting would be the final straw for me. I might recover from something and forgive if somebody leaves me alone to process it in my own time. Hassling me with communications would have the opposite effect.
“You don’t just go up to a new person you’re attracted to and disclose.”
Can you imagine a world where we just did that? What on earth would we say? Like that song from the 90s ‘I’ve noticed you around … I find you very attractive … would you … er…..’
“It’s like limerence. Glimmers happen but limerence flares up when the limerent chases their feelings.”
Fair. I get the difference now. I can’t change what’s done, but this is a good marker for the future.
“I’d prefer that he walk the hell away from his LO. Whether or not there are feelings should be irrelevant.”
and
“HOWEVER, if you are going to disclose … and I’m talking about how I feel as a single woman … be prepared to do something about it. Otherwise, I don’t want to know.”
I’m a hot mess of contradictions on this topic too, so don’t worry. I’ll just put it out –
I spent almost the first year of the LE CONVINCED I would have to disclose at some point. The reason for this was purely selfish – I was desperate to know if she reciprocated, or if I’d made that bit up. With the help of LwL, I figured out how selfish an idea that was, and I took your point above (made by you and others at the time too) – if I wasn’t prepared to DO something, then don’t SAY something. There would be no good answer, and no unselfish reason for doing it.
My reasons for disclosure now would be very different. It would be ‘disclose to end it’ (as with the xLO). I’m not quite there yet, but maybe I’ll get there. If we didn’t have to work together, I think I’d just do it – in a nice spirit and between friends – and I *think* she’d take it fine. But it could spin it off in any number of directions I don’t want, and then there is the co-working side. But if I was acting *purely* in my SO’s interest and/or wanted to totally end it enough, I would probably ‘disclose and go’. And you’d then probably say that was a horrible thing to do to LO (bearing in mind length of friendship), and I’d agree. There’s not an easy or right answer here.
“He did say a few things I wasn’t crazy about, but the reason things stopped … is me.”
OK. Talk more if it would help but I won’t push this, as I know it is all sensitive.
“it was basically … I find you attractive and if I wasn’t already with someone, I would have asked you on a date.”
that’s how I was going to disclose LO if I ever did (I even had an email written once). But it was without the follow-through that LO-lite was prepared to do, and that’s a crucial difference. I think I’ve said it without saying it though – just enough bits of the puzzle that if she puts them together (and she is emotionally bright) she will know I’ve been attracted.
LaR,
“Is your experience that the unmarrieds are generally looking for a ‘safer option’ (looking for a wife)? And then once they have one, they start getting tempted by the office ‘foxes’?”
I really haven’t had any way of tracking that. I’d have to have known guys who were single and dating, then picked the “safe” option to marry (if they in fact did), and then were tempted by the office tart. 🙂
“Does he seem shy generally?”
It’s hard for me to say. I’ve never spoken to him. It’s those events I wrote about with tons of people. He’s always in groups of people I don’t know.
“Maybe he is one where you’d have to take the lead and it could open him up quite quickly if you did.”
If I had some indication he noticed me. I don’t. I ‘ve never seen him so much as look at me. At the last event where I saw him, he was talking to some other woman.
“OK – this is an interesting one to pick at what you mean … what is this ‘wrong idea’ that you might give the single guys”
That I’m interested beyond friendship.
“(as opposed to if you gave that same idea to married guys)?”
Married guys are great to flirt with. 🙂 It’s why I did well at the job where I met my LO. Nothing’s probably going to happen with the married guys. Despite the impression I may have given on this site, it’s not super common. And it’s so much easier to flirt with people you aren’t interested in. No stakes. You can be yourself.
“Do the married people tend to come to these meetup things alone, or with partners?”
Depends on the event. The generic social groups tend to have more singles (though not exclusively). I belong to a couple that are more … idk … political/philosophical … that’s more a mix of marrieds and singles, and sometimes couples are there.
“I did meet a couple of women at them (yes, I WAS single at the time!) who I could have seen as prospects.”
So not the kind who are the only woman in the room?
“But you’d go to future events and there would be a load of different people there, so it was hard work to have regular contact with the same people unless you braved it and asked to swap phone numbers with people, etc.”
That’s true. You could have messaged them through the site the next day.
Some groups are smaller and if they meet often enough (at least twice a month) you get to know people better. With the bigger groups, it may be all new people at each event, but if you go enough, you do see repeats.
“This was a college-days one.”
I need a chart. There are so many. 🙂
“My friend at college had an experience of being accused of not having consent the next day”
I’ve read about this. It’s the most common scenario of college assault accusations. And then the college itself handles the case (not the police and the courts). And it’s a much lower preponderance of evidence than in a court of law. And if the guy is found guilty … he’ll get expelled and find it very difficult (if impossible) to get into another school. It’s extremely serious. If I had a college-age son, we’d be having some conversations.
“Things like – ‘what’s on your mind?’, ‘what are you worried about?’. The thing is, I did have other very plausible things to be worried about in this spell, so I would fall back on them.”
You know my opinion on this. I won’t repeat it.
“Too much being relied upon – I wanted someone around me who wasn’t as reliant and could be more reciprocal. That’s not meant to be about/a criticism of SO as much as about the bigger picture at the time.”
I understand.
“She doesn’t get to just pick just all the Snickers and Twix out of the box and ignore the coconut Bounties (I have no idea if the cultural reference will carry).”
It doesn’t. 🙂 But I get what you are saying.
“Yeah, it’s every straight guy in his 30s’ (at the time) fantasy – a hulking guy nearly 20 years your senior after you, and showing it through physical actions!”
Now you know what it is to be a woman! 🙂
“All the calling and texting would be the final straw for me. I might recover from something and forgive if somebody leaves me alone to process it in my own time. Hassling me with communications would have the opposite effect.”
No, I was done with the friendship. I didn’t need to process. But what often happens is that if you pull back, the other person comes in harder.
“Can you imagine a world where we just did that? What on earth would we say? ”
“Do you want to get out of here?” 🙂
“this is a good marker for the future.”
This is my opinion. You’re not required to feel the same. 🙂
“I spent almost the first year of the LE CONVINCED I would have to disclose at some point. The reason for this was purely selfish – I was desperate to know if she reciprocated, or if I’d made that bit up. With the help of LwL, I figured out how selfish an idea that was, and I took your point above (made by you and others at the time too) – if I wasn’t prepared to DO something, then don’t SAY something. There would be no good answer, and no unselfish reason for doing it.”
I think Dr. L does not think a person with an SO (or a person with an LO who has an SO) should disclose. I used to not agree with that, but I do now. I know this has been written before, but there’s also no guarantee that if you do disclose, you’ll get a definitive response. What if you get a confusing one?
“It would be ‘disclose to end it’ (as with the xLO). ”
I’m preparing for LE to come in at any minute. I can almost write his upcoming post for him. 🙂
I don’t agree with the idea of disclosing to end it. I think there’s still a small part of the limerent, no matter how small, no matter how much they deny it, that is hoping for reciprocation.
Oh, there he is …. I can hear him typing. 🙂
“But if I was acting *purely* in my SO’s interest and/or wanted to totally end it enough, I would probably ‘disclose and go’.”
I have no idea what this would have to do with your SO.
The only thing I could think you could have done for your SO is pull back from the friendship with your LO.
“There’s not an easy or right answer here.”
There is. But no limerent ever wants to do it.
“OK. Talk more if it would help but I won’t push this, as I know it is all sensitive.”
It’s not that it’s so sensitive. It’s that it’s hard to talk about without giving too much away. Needless to say, I had a lot of mixed feelings about the situation and him. I really bungled it. I would like to talk about it but he’s not returning my emails and avoiding me at work. Did I hurt his feelings or did I wound his ego?
“that’s how I was going to disclose LO if I ever did (I even had an email written once). ”
Well, as I wrote, it was a little sexier than that, but I’m trying to be vague. When you wrote “feelings,” I thought you meant emotional feelings. I didn’t know him well enough for that to be part of the disclosure. But you’ve been friends with your LO. So I didn’t know if you would have included more emotional stuff in a disclosure. I have mixed feelings about that. Sometimes it can get a little heavy, like you’re handing over your feelings and saying, “Here they are. Know what to do with them and figure out your own.”
“But it was without the follow-through that LO-lite was prepared to do, and that’s a crucial difference.”
I don’t know that he was prepared. I don’t know why he told me. He was surprised I when I confessed to similar feelings.
” I think I’ve said it without saying it though – just enough bits of the puzzle that if she puts them together (and she is emotionally bright) she will know I’ve been attracted.”
You’re big on having people piece stuff together. 🙂
And why am I posting all hours of the day and night? Insomnia! 🙂
Marcia,
“It’s hard for me to say. I’ve never spoken to him. It’s those events I wrote about with tons of people. He’s always in groups of people I don’t know.”
Try and infiltrate 🙂
[what is this ‘wrong idea’ that you might give the single guys”]
“That I’m interested beyond friendship.”
But what if you actually were? Do you still not want to give that away at that stage?
“Married guys are great to flirt with. 🙂 … And it’s so much easier to flirt with people you aren’t interested in. No stakes. You can be yourself.”
I am with you on the ‘you can be yourself’. But didn’t you say such flirtation without action tips into being irritating? (Or do you mean a very light level where everyone knows it is meaningless)?
“So not the kind who are the only woman in the room?”
Nope. Those are the once in five years ones we discussed before.
“That’s true. You could have messaged them through the site the next day.”
I did develop two or three like that and meet them outside the site events, but only as friends around shared interests. There was one I ‘liked’ a bit more, but I didn’t push it.
“I need a chart. There are so many. 🙂”
It’s carefully massaged to seem that way 😆 There aren’t really. Not many left for me that I haven’t mentioned. Maybe I’ll tell you about being an LO, which I think I’ve only been once.
[“I have no idea if the cultural reference will carry).”]
“It doesn’t. 🙂 But I get what you are saying.”
Take two – if you want to eat the Hu, you also need to eat the Hersheys. I don’t know what these things are, I just see you and the other LwL ladies yakking about them.
[“Yeah, it’s every straight guy in his 30s’ fantasy – a hulking guy nearly 20 years your senior after you, and showing it through physical actions!”]
“Now you know what it is to be a woman! 🙂”
Another good one your ladyship 🙂
“Do you want to get out of here?” 🙂
Do you know the song I was on about? It’s called ‘Would you?’ by Touch and Go from 1998. You don’t like clicking links, so go find!
“there’s also no guarantee that if you do disclose, you’ll get a definitive response. What if you get a confusing one?
… (and)
“I’m preparing for LE to come in at any minute. I can almost write his upcoming post for him. 🙂”
Still waiting. I reckon it will be something about throwing a grenade 🙂
“I have no idea what this would have to do with your SO.”
It would go hand in hand with ending it – as you said below: “pull back from the friendship with your LO.”
“Did I hurt his feelings or did I wound his ego?”
I suggest neither. You said you wanted emotional involvement. He has an SO. You’ve said to me millions of times that you’d (SO version of Marcia) see your SO having an EA as worse than him having a one-nighter. Maybe your LO-lite feels like that – could have a PA but not an EA, and now realises pure PA with you is not an option.
As far as EAs go, I think the person (let’s say for now, for simplicity’s sake, the man in the scenario) goes through conflicting feelings – one minute willing to cave into it, the next resisting it. That’s been my experience anyway. I obviously don’t know LO lite but he could have gone through a cycle of that.
Could he have just got uncomfortable and run when he realised you wanted emotional investment?
“But you’ve been friends with your LO. So I didn’t know if you would have included more emotional stuff in a disclosure.”
If I thought about it these days, I probably would limit that because she is not a massively emotional person. And besides – I have given her too much emotional attention already – more can’t really do any good. Though – to play my broken record just one more time – I am not prepared either to be really cold to her and throw the long friendship under the bus.
“Here they are. Know what to do with them and figure out your own.”
Not a fair expectation to put on an LO, in my opinion. My feelings are mine to manage.
“I don’t know why he told me. He was surprised I when I confessed to similar feelings.”
The sort of fairytale disclosure story we ‘partnereds’ tell ourselves is something like what happened with my LO3 (the last one I explained to you). Kind of “in another life this would have been lovely, but we know we can’t” – everyone walks away with a fuzzy happy feeling that it was reciprocated, they didn’t dream it all up, and the uncertainty is over. I got lucky with that with LO3. I am only trying to explain it from the pov of someone with a partner (LO3 also had one, so the danger level of it was equal for both of us). When the other doesn’t have one, all of that is out of the window and disclosure by the limerent becomes a purely selfish act. And this is also where DrL or L.E. would tell us it will never go as we expect or script it.
LaR,
“Try and infiltrate 🙂”
Yeah, but as I wrote … I’m getting no signs of interest. I’m not a man. I try to look for signs of interest. 🙂 That’s not to say I’ll never make any effort to speak to him … if an opportunity ever presented itself. But I see no reason to put a lot of effort into it. You can’t be everyone’s type. 🙂
“But what if you actually were? Do you still not want to give that away at that stage?”
No, I would act differently. Hopefully, I would act like I was interested. FRIENDLY versus friendly. 🙂
“But didn’t you say such flirtation without action tips into being irritating? ”
Only if I’m interested. 🙂 Usually, I don’t take flirtation all that seriously. I’ve learned from your side not to. 🙂
“Or do you mean a very light level where everyone knows it is meaningless?”
Could be a light level. Could get pretty raunchy. 🙂 I don’t experience the raunch level now. People are a lot more PC.
“Nope. Those are the once in five years ones we discussed before.”
So how does a woman know if she’s NOT one of those once-in-a-five-years women? What if I don’t want to be a “light interest” woman? 🙂
” There was one I ‘liked’ a bit more, but I didn’t push it.”
Because the interest wasn’t strong enough? Or she wasn’t bitchy enough? 🙂 (C’mon. That was funny. :))
“Maybe I’ll tell you about being an LO, which I think I’ve only been once.”
Ha! I think I was one for that friend of LO’s I hooked up with. I could not get rid of him. Or he was mental. It was NOT flattering.
“Take two – if you want to eat the Hu, you also need to eat the Hersheys.”
I don’t WANT the Hershey’s! That’s the problem!
“I just see you and the other LwL ladies yakking about them.”
We don’t “yak.” We converse. We communicate. We share ideas. That’s like me saying you male posters just “grunt” at each other. 🙂
[“Yeah, it’s every straight guy in his 30s’ fantasy – a hulking guy nearly 20 years your senior after you, and showing it through physical actions!”]
[“Now you know what it is to be a woman! 🙂”]
“Another good one your ladyship 🙂”
Thank you. I’ll be here all week. 🙂
“Do you know the song I was on about? It’s called ‘Would you?’ by Touch and Go from 1998. You don’t like clicking links, so go find!”
And I’m going to respond like the rest of the posters do. “I can’t find it. I don’t know how to use Google.” 🙂
Ok. I pulled it up. Wow. I’m shocked. You like “ironic” music. 🙂
“Still waiting. I reckon it will be something about throwing a grenade 🙂”
And quotes from the LOs. In this instance, LO #4. 🙂
“It would go hand in hand with ending it – as you said below: “pull back from the friendship with your LO.””
Uh… sure. 🙂 C’mon. Do you really think those are your real intentions? You’ve had 2 years to pull back from the friendship.
“You said you wanted emotional involvement.”
Not exactly. I didn’t ask for anything. Just said no to the request to meet up again. (I’m trying to dance around this a little so as not to get too specific.) Said had fear “emotions” popping up (mine) … for lack of a better description.
Now, when I told my hookup I didn’t want to meet up again, that I ultimately was looking for something more serious … we parted on good terms. LO-lite and I did not part on good terms. Which leads me to believe … the ego thing. But this is a guess on my part.
“You’ve said to me millions of times that you’d (SO version of Marcia) see your SO having an EA as worse than him having a one-nighter. Maybe your LO-lite feels like that – could have a PA but not an EA, and now realises pure PA with you is not an option.”
I have no idea how LO-lite feels about that. Or how his SO does. There are an awful lot of people who would see the PA as a worse crime.
“Though – to play my broken record just one more time – I am not prepared either to be really cold to her and throw the long friendship under the bus.”
Right. Have cake. Eat it. 🙂
“The sort of fairytale disclosure story we ‘partnereds’ tell ourselves is something like what happened with my LO3 (the last one I explained to you). Kind of “in another life this would have been lovely, but we know we can’t” – everyone walks away with a fuzzy happy feeling that it was reciprocated, they didn’t dream it all up, and the uncertainty is over. ”
Yeah … in my case, that wasn’t how the conversation went. At all.
” When the other doesn’t have one, all of that is out of the window and disclosure by the limerent becomes a purely selfish act. And this is also where DrL or L.E. would tell us it will never go as we expect or script it.”
It could still go off script if both people are partnered.
Dame Marcia,
“Yeah, but as I wrote … I’m getting no signs of interest. I’m not a man. I try to look for signs of interest. 🙂”
Doesn’t the interest ever build / show itself through interactions? It does for me, as you know. He could be similar [just a thought – doesn’t mean I’m right].
[“But didn’t you say such flirtation without action tips into being irritating”?]
“Only if I’m interested. 🙂 ”
🙂 back atcha! Double standard, but we all have them.
“Usually, I don’t take flirtation all that seriously. I’ve learned from your side not to. 🙂”
Big generalisation with ‘your side’ – everyone on that side is still an individual. What you’re saying will be correct in many cases of men, but not all.
“So how does a woman know if she’s NOT one of those once-in-a-five-years women? What if I don’t want to be a “light interest” woman? 🙂”
All I can say is, you (personally) *know* instinctively when it is the five-years kind. You heard Adam’s recent example and recognised how his work mate ‘just knew’ about his LO, and you gave an example where your own mate knew about your attraction to a guy. I guess – harsh as it is to say – you know it’s not that kind if those signs aren’t there. And as five years is a long time, some of the lesser glimmers can be explored without fear in the mean time, to see where they lead (if anywhere).
[“There was one I ‘liked’ a bit more, but I didn’t push it.”]
“Because the interest wasn’t strong enough? Or she wasn’t bitchy enough? 🙂 (C’mon. That was funny. :))”
You can have that one 🙂 She had ‘bitchy’ in her, but didn’t let it out that much.
“Ha! I think I was one for that friend of LO’s I hooked up with. I could not get rid of him. Or he was mental. It was NOT flattering.”
What did he do? This one I think was a limerent for invited me to her house for lunch. During the lunch she started explaining to me things about her ‘bedroom preferences’! I bumped into her again many years later and she was still strange with me.
“We don’t “yak.” We converse. We communicate. We share ideas.”
Oh dear. I now have basic vocabulary along with limited sentence structuring ability 🙂
“Ok. I pulled it up. Wow. I’m shocked. You like “ironic” music. 🙂”
I just think the key line in the song captures what many of us wish we could just say, but that we are cultured not to say.
“Uh… sure. 🙂 C’mon. Do you really think those are your real intentions? You’ve had 2 years to pull back from the friendship.”
I’ve pulled back a long way but it is as far as I’m prepared to go at the moment. It may change. If that sounds selfish, so be it. I am just trying to be honest instead of spinning in loops trying to dodge this point.
“LO-lite and I did not part on good terms. Which leads me to believe … the ego thing. But this is a guess on my part.”
I would like to probe this more to get it properly, but I also get from the repeated times you’ve said it, that you have said about all you can say without it being uncomfortably revealing. Fair enough if that’s the case.
“There are an awful lot of people who would see the PA as a worse crime.”
There are – we have discussed it before in context of my SO. But some do think the other way round, like you do. Did you pull back from seeing him again because you felt guilty about developing the emotional connection with a partnered, or because you felt he wouldn’t give it to you?
“It could still go off script if both people are partnered.”
Yes, I have seen and known many examples and it isn’t something I (as a partnered) would put myself or the other person through unless there was a guarantee of space and NC being available afterwards.
LaR,
“Doesn’t the interest ever build”
I don’t think for most men it does build. They like what they see or they don’t. Now, I have had a couple of instances of guys saying something kind of surprising to me after knowing them a bit when I didn’t think they had noticed me. And I thought: Oh, I didn’t know it was that type of party. 🙂 But usually you can tell … the guy’s looking at you, he’s kind of hovering, etc.
“🙂 back atcha! Double standard, but we all have them.”
Why is that a double standard? Why would I care about someone being intentional in their flirting if I’m not interested?
“Big generalisation with ‘your side’ – everyone on that side is still an individual. What you’re saying will be correct in many cases of men, but not all.”
All I know is that, of all those married guys who flirted/talked with me (and there were a lot because it was a big company and I had to talk to a lot of people for my job), only a few ever pressed for more. A small percentage. Very small. The rest weren’t taking it seriously, either.
“All I can say is, you (personally) *know* instinctively when it is the five-years kind.”
How would I know that? I can usually tell when someone is interested. I can’t tell the LEVEL of interest. I could tell the guy I went out with was interested. It was obvious. But the only way to know it was a garden-variety, I’m-down-to-hook-up-if-you-are interest (which I think it was) was to sit back and watch what he did (level of communication between dates, how quickly asking me out again, etc.).
“You can have that one 🙂 She had ‘bitchy’ in her, but didn’t let it out that much.”
In all seriousness, why didn’t you push it more?
“What did he do?”
He wouldn’t go away. I ended it, and he would make up bullsh*t reasons to talk to me about work (and I made it very clear I didn’t want to talk to him). There were other people in my department he could talk to if he had to, and the things he brought up to talk about were ridiculous. This went on for over a year. A couple of years ?
“This one I think was a limerent for invited me to her house for lunch. During the lunch she started explaining to me things about her ‘bedroom preferences’!”
Yuck. I wouldn’t like that.
“Oh dear. I now have basic vocabulary along with limited sentence structuring ability 🙂”
Well, yeah. I expected limitations due to your gender. 🙂
“I just think the key line in the song captures what many of us wish we could just say, but that we are cultured not to say.”
I read an article years ago and the author wrote about how she was at some party and this guy leaned over to her and asked, “If you’re as bored as I am, do you want to get out of here?” That’s a great line. 🙂
“I would like to probe this more to get it properly”
This is over email so tone can be misinterpreted. He asked to meet up again. I said no. He seemed surprised, and in the course of me explaining why, he seemed annoyed in his curt responses ? And now he avoids me at work.
“Did you pull back from seeing him again because you felt guilty about developing the emotional connection with a partnered, or because you felt he wouldn’t give it to you?”
The latter. And there were parts of LO-lite’s personality I saw that I didn’t like that I hadn’t seen before. If I’m being honest. Which is why none of this makes any sense. I mean, why I’m so upset.
“unless there was a guarantee of space and NC being available afterwards.”
But shouldn’t it also be because you have a partner?
Sir Adam 🎩 🍺,
That’s the best answer I’ve ever heard from someone who regularly goes to Church and read Nietzsche! 👏
“Nietzsche’s cry that “God is dead” is what appealed to me initially to read his works.”
I’m from a nation where God “has never been born”, so “God is dead” statement could not and did not exist. What Nietzsche has impressed a lot of COO folks are that he stressed individuality and one’s potentials if one pursues them without any ideologies/religions “repressing” them. But communism is treated as a God by the government (worse than free religions), so individuals are living or lived under Big Brother’s extreme oppressions. Keep today’s North Korea in mind.
“I have come to realize that it doesn’t matter if God is dead or alive or ever even existed. It’s what the Bible can teach me about being the person that Jesus was to the best of my ability. Was Jesus just a good man or the son of God? Does it matter? No, his message does.”
Well said. Bible shares some common ethics with other religions/philosophies, e.g. Buddhistic texts or Koran. In our ancient culture, there are 18 layers of the Hell and 9 layers of the Heaven, which often appear in period soap-operas, but no one believes it at all; the government just treats it as a cultural myth.
“The church that I go to makes me feel like it is the place that I can do that. The pastor gives amazing sermons that make me think about who I am as a person better I think that I have ever heard in a church before.”
Then keep going there by all means!
You really sound like you’ve over your last LE, congratulations! 🎈
However, you and I share one thing in common: we haven’t tested out how we are going to feel if our respective LO suddenly stands in front of us again… I feel more and more I can deal with it as if the LE had never taken place; however, I neither seek nor avoid such a possibility…
“You really sound like you’ve over your last LE, congratulations! 🎈
However, you and I share one thing in common: we haven’t tested out how we are going to feel if our respective LO suddenly stands in front of us again… I feel more and more I can deal with it as if the LE had never taken place; however, I neither seek nor avoid such a possibility…”
There is/was (not sure at the moment yet) that LO may return. We had an employee at the location she worked at before quit very unexpectedly (no notice at all) and her name was in the hat to see if she wanted to come back to work. I talked to head accounting down there yesterday and she said she’s been doing interviews since last week, but no indication of who or when we are hiring.
I would like to say, I would be okay with it, if it happens. But one can’t be too sure, like you said, until faced with such a limerent conundrum. I think my resolve that I don’t want to go through that again would win out even if she does return. Limerence doesn’t seem pleasant anymore. It’s painful and redundant.
Adam 🎩 🍺,
I’m not envious of your new possibility… 😓
“I would like to say, I would be okay with it, if it happens. But one can’t be too sure, like you said, until faced with such a limerent conundrum.”
With my Longing is gone, I think I can be 95% + sure, but 1% is still risky even after the LE is gone.
“I think my resolve that I don’t want to go through that again would win out even if she does return. Limerence doesn’t seem pleasant anymore. It’s painful and redundant.”
I don’t know who wants to go though that again! Limerence is pleasant only during the “honeymoon” period or when one expects little reciprocation, especially mental/emotional one; otherwise, it’s very “painful and redundant” to our neural system.
Have you got rid of your “stuff” — the mother-son complex (sorry if I remember incorrectly)? Based on my own experiences, only that original Longing is gone, I can feel no need to “rescue damsels” in distress or to be “rescued” as a “damsel-kid”. I had both complex in the past, but now NONE. 😊
Please keep us posted with this new job vacancy.. a good luck to you🤞
“Have you got rid of your “stuff” — the mother-son complex (sorry if I remember incorrectly)? Based on my own experiences, only that original Longing is gone, I can feel no need to “rescue damsels” in distress or to be “rescued” as a “damsel-kid”. I had both complex in the past, but now NONE.”
Miss Snow
That is the one thing I would fear still having. I don’t think I would have issues with her, herself, as last I was told she is happily engaged. But her daughter? She is in the 20-21 year old range now. Which (including myself in my life) I think is one of the most disastrous times for sex and romance for boys. We think we are ready and for most part we are not. And then you have the straight up “take advantage of” guys.
To rescue her from the clutches of the many amorous boys (she inherited her mother’s genes even at the age she was when I met her) as her surrogate father, since her biological father doesn’t seem to care to be a part of her life, would be very strong. This isn’t the first “daughter” I have had. And the hardest part of all of them, was them growing up and me turning over-protective.
I’ll report back on the work situation once I know something for sure.
Adam,
“That is the one thing I would fear still having. I don’t think I would have issues with her, herself, as last I was told she is happily engaged. But her daughter? She is in the 20-21 year old range now. “
I’m lost here: whose daughter you’re talking about? I thought your LO is under 30 and has a small daughter (4-5 yrs?)
“Which (including myself in my life) I think is one of the most disastrous times for sex and romance for boys. We think we are ready and for most part we are not. And then you have the straight up “take advantage of” guys.”
I thought, based on one of Marcia’s talks, today’s generation knows more about sex, and takes more cautionary steps before getting sexually involved… I don’t keep up with pop cultures…
Miss Marcia,
“Maybe she felt she had to play the game to survive. Her sexuality was her weapon and her defense.
Or she was a professional. A master of the hot and cold. Is it a nice thing to do? No. But you have to be kind of impressed by a woman who has a bunch of spinning plates and then chooses the one she wants.”
As long as a women/man uses their physical appearance or sex appeal to play games, even just for survival, like Scarlet, does NOT have my admiration or respect (with both feminine and masculine energy within me). I understand why they do it, but would NOT befriend with such a woman or man.
As I told you in the other post, I NEVER played a game even once in my entire life, more than half of my time I was constantly ran away from unwanted attention at school, at work, and in public (I told you my childhood trauma…)… I wanted to be “left” alone from male wolves and female foxes, unless I chose otherwise…. Sorry to sound grossly arrogant, but it was a fact…
There was only 1 case (with LO4.5 over two decades ago), that I wanted more from him as a surrogate parent, NOT a lover (the same with ET). He thought I was emotionally immaterial — too much longing side and not independent enough. He was also a divorced-father “ mature” playboy (the uglies in appearance among my xLOs) with tons of woman sleeping with him, which “grossed” me. He lived a half global away; so there was not even opportunity for me to try to “play” anything realistically.
He’s that PhD psychologist (not my shrink) who told me that (paraphrase): most of men would be afraid of you, your natural physical and mental power — a pair of x-ray 👁️ to sense people’s stuff “correctly”… His assessment was not “wrong” for the following 2 decades…
The Western kind of bourgeois relationship games are petty and tiresome to me… sorry I could not help think and feel this way… 😀
Typo:
He thought I was emotionally immature — too much longing and not enough mental and emotional independence, to tango….
After that I took my first Vipassana 10 day silence retreat; the therapist gf was one of LO4.5’s fling once upon a time…. It took me another year in total NC to get over it.
Snow,
I think as limerents we take love and romance and sex and dating very seriously. But I don’t think it’s that way for everyone. I’m not saying people don’t get their feelings hurt and that even those who take it much more lightly never got their feelings hurt by people they really fall for, but someone asking you out (universal “you”) or coming onto you, for example, doesn’t mean the person is dying of love for you.
I try to keep that in mind. I think my LO, for example, was very flirtatious. Was he playing games? Yes. But did I also take him too seriously? Yes. One can’t play the game unless someone is playing it with you. And I was hardly 18 years old when I met him and green with inexperience.
So that’s my response about playing games.
Also, if you’re talking about flirtation in general, I don’t think it means much to most people. They’re not serious. People take that too seriously, too.
Marcia,
“someone asking you out (universal “you”) or coming onto you, for example, doesn’t mean the person is dying of love for you.”
Precisely. Because I could tell they’re not dying of love for me, but carried this “wolf” look/gaze, even if just for a split of a second, I just ran. If a trauma could wipe out a chuck of your memory, you could guess/weigh the weight of that fear….
“Yes. One can’t play the game unless someone is playing it with you. And I was hardly 18 years old when I met him and green with inexperience.”
Based on your chitchat with your LaR, I just don’t recall I played any “games” at any age, despite I was dying for my initial crushes. My COO would not ALLOW or heavily criticized the western bourgeois relationship games (in “1984’). Later, the cultural pattern became a habit under Big Brother’s nose.
Please keep in mind that I did not grow up in your culture. If I did and did not have my old longing, I might have broken many male hearts for my snacks 🥠 😋 ….
“Also, if you’re talking about flirtation in general, I don’t think it means much to most people. They’re not serious. People take that too seriously, too.”
I don’t know how to pin-point define flirtation in general between yours (collective) and mine, but I’ve taken safe “flirtation” from 6 yrs to 86 yrs. They’re sincerely affectionate and harmless, and 🆎 did not include that “professional” “wolf-y” looks like Butler…
In regards to flirting, I think there is no universal way to do so. Everyone has their own way and to degree of intensity that they proclaim it. I get called out for my chivalry and manners as flirting. But I never flirted. When I was single I declared either through actions or words very clearly that I was interested in a woman. I never wanted to be accused of the mind games with my intentions. It’s not fair to the other person to “read you”. Only because she was unavailable to me did I flirt the line with LO.
Adam,
“When I was single I declared either through actions or words very clearly that I was interested in a woman. I never wanted to be accused of the mind games with my intentions.”
Yes, but you’re a limerent. So you’re serious!
I’d say (and this is a guess from my own life experience) … 80 – 90 % of flirting means nothing. Meaning: There’s no intention behind it. It doesn’t matter if people are available or not.
Snow,
“Precisely. Because I could tell they’re not dying of love for me, but carried this “wolf” look/gaze, even if just for a split of a second, I just ran. If a trauma could wipe out a chuck of your memory, you could guess/weigh the weight of that fear….”
I’m just saying we as limerents take this stuff seriously. I understand that the “wolf eyes” triggered your trauma but it could just have been someone looking at you a bit too intently. It doesn’t necessarily mean they were going to come after you.
I don’t think most people take this stuff as seriously as limerents do. Like flirting. Some people just flirt to flirt.
Marcia,
“I’m just saying we as limerents take this stuff seriously.”
I totally acknowledge that I was as serious as Adam, and took “this stuff” deadly seriously more than ever it deserved, which hurt myself after defecting that the other side was just casual, specially in this culture.
“I understand that the “wolf eyes” triggered your trauma but it could just have been someone looking at you a bit too intently. It doesn’t necessarily mean they were going to come after you.”
Oh, no, no. “Wolf eyes” (or sometime praised as “sexy” eyes) are not just “intently”, but with something else in them — a predatory/invasive look . I did not care what they meant in reality, once I saw, I ran — it’s irreversible history now. LO1,4,7’s eyes are intently, but so soft, sweet, sad or poetic. I was not afraid of their eyes at all.
“I don’t think most people take this stuff as seriously as limerents do. Like flirting. Some people just flirt to flirt.”
I know, I know. I was born a limerent! I disrespected and dismissed 😏 those heartless flirtation”…. Luckily in HE environment, not so many cheap flirtatious grins or chitchats or “touchy” hands/hugs. People appear warm, sophisticated, or soft (not rough or uncouth). 😃
In the past 3 months after that Longing is gone, I found myself is ridiculously giddy, freakishly jokey… 😂 Gosh, why didn’t I behave more devilishly earlier on so as to get a “public rival/enemy” much earlier in my life⁉️ 🤣
Snow,
“I totally acknowledge that I was as serious as Adam, and took “this stuff” deadly seriously more than ever it deserved, which hurt myself after defecting that the other side was just casual, specially in this culture.”
I have suffered with the same seriousness! 🙂
“Oh, no, no. “Wolf eyes” (or sometime praised as “sexy” eyes) are not just “intently”, but with something else in them — a predatory/invasive look . ”
You mean a creeper? I don’t like that either.
Marcia,
“You mean a creeper? I don’t like that either.”
If it’s just creepy intently, then it’s easy to tell or brush off. But it’s neither warm/caring/sweet/open, nor creepy /drooling /greedy, but somewhat observing /scanning /mysterious /distrusting, as if you were evil….
It takes one to make one — a thief 👺 thinks everyone else in the world is a thief! 👺
Snow,
“If it’s just creepy intently, then it’s easy to tell or brush off. But it’s neither warm/caring/sweet/open, nor creepy /drooling /greedy, but somewhat observing /scanning /mysterious /distrusting, as if you were evil….”
Idk what you’re talking about. 🙂 You have a lot of particulars about how they look at you, how long, if you look at them first. 🙂
I’m just more … am I interested in them? 🙂
MAJOR bonus points … Are they available? Are they going to move things forward? 🙂
Marcia,
“Idk what you’re talking about. 🙂 You have a lot of particulars about how they look at you, how long, if you look at them first. 🙂”
I merely talked about my past experiences, nothing to do with the present. I’m sorry if I did not use the past tense for all the verbs.
“I’m just more … am I interested in them? 🙂
MAJOR bonus points … Are they available? Are they going to move things forward? 🙂”
These are your current dating concerns, vitally important‼️ I’ll remember them should I encounter new Glimmers. Presently, I’m not dating or interested in it, just living my small life in general, and recovering from my surgery in specific.
Tomorrow evening, I’ll again encounter that unavoidable glimmer from TX, quietly landed on the stormy and flooding evening of my town 2 weeks ago. I’ll try to enjoy the glimmer just as it is without being carried away… 😃
Snow,
“I merely talked about my past experiences, nothing to do with the present. I’m sorry if I did not use the past tense for all the verbs.”
Gotcha.
“and recovering from my surgery in specific.”
It sounds like you’re doing well! Just don’t pick up any heavy objects! 🙂
“Tomorrow evening, I’ll again encounter that unavoidable glimmer from TX, quietly landed on the stormy and flooding evening of my town 2 weeks ago. I’ll try to enjoy the glimmer just as it is without being carried away… 😃”
Hopefully it’ll be like my recent Glimmer-lite and when you encounter him again, he’ll be much less shimmery. 🙂
Miss ❄️
I’m interested in all you’re saying about eyes, as you seem to be able decode such a lot from people’s eyes.
A person is born with their eyes – none of us got a choice about the colour or shape of our own. But we aren’t born with all our character elements – much of what we become as a character is nurture/formed.
So how can the eyes and the character be so tightly correlated? Do you think eyes ‘change’ somehow from the genetic version we’re born with? Or is your sixth sense from the eyes of others, more about what people do with their eyes than how their eyes look physically?
I think I can tell quite a lot from eyes too, but I am never sure how. And I get it wrong sometimes, whereas you seem to have cast iron certainty in your 👁 based judgements.
LaR 🎩 🚜 ,
“A person is born with their eyes – none of us got a choice about the colour or shape of our own. But we aren’t born with all our character elements – much of what we become as a character is nurture/formed.”
True. We’re born only with physical shape of eyes, nothing nurtured. If you gaze in babies’s eyes, they’re more or less all the same — empty/expressionless, despite generic markers they get from their parents.
“So how can the eyes and the character be so tightly correlated? “
Eyes are the window of soul, of person’s characters, of person’s thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. It’s a fact, but I don’t know how they’re represented/reflected in one’s eyes. There must be mental activities correlated to expressions in eyes… Are there any scientific or psychological paper on this?
“Do you think eyes ‘change’ somehow from the genetic version we’re born with?”
Eyes shapes don’t change (besides normal aging), but contents in eyes YES, 🆎. Actually when optometrist (or anyone) gets closer to examine eyes, they all look the same without their expressions. But what we normally see are eyes with active expressions or “aged” formation of characters, which change. Did you ever watch the movie “Dorian Gray”?
To Jung, one’s “history” (I guess psychological with personality-wise) is written on one’s face, although details are unknown to him or anyone.
“Or is your sixth sense from the eyes of others, more about what people do with their eyes than how their eyes look physically?”
“What people do with their eyes?” How can anyone DO with their eyes, except when they want to naturally or artificially convey some emotions? My sixth senses seldom focus on mere physical feature of eyes, but what is in them. That’s why BTS’ Jimin looks different from Dimash to me, with similar physical features, age (30, 31), hair cut, and air in some of their photos. If you compare their signings, then their differences get bigger.
“I think I can tell quite a lot from eyes too, but I am never sure how. And I get it wrong sometimes, whereas you seem to have cast iron certainty in your 👁 based judgements.”
I seemed to have such an intuitive ability since young, but I was not sure its accuracy, of course. After naively, ignorantly assessed people that LO4.5 (psychologist) knew well, he was almost shocked.
Also, I understand eyes of dogs, horses, babies and young children, they follow my eyes, feel safe or get excited. I could make a “new” kid (6 month +) giggle upon meeting them within seconds — happened again with my boss’ new kid (10mon old) a month ago.
From a 2-dimension photo, I can read a great deal of one’s disposition and will stand by my senses/intuition. By the way, I’m NOT a witch.
I could form some mental images purely based on words, but they are unreliable, due to my subjective, wishful thinking and biased interpretation of words — the biggest “enemy” of human communications/understandings according to Wittgenstein.
Eyes can reveal so much and yet it’s hard to explain how. I can have a mundane conversation with someone—small talk, business—and an entirely different conversation with his eyes. I’m not particularly good at reading body language, and yet this I seem to do well at.
It’s not all that “constricted irises” stuff you find copy-pasted on all the websites—I can’t even see the irises. Eye contact also helps my cat and me understand each other, when we obviously don’t speak the same language.
I think it’s a combination of movements of the face—raised eyebrows and the like—and something that’s coming through the eyes out of the soul. I remember one time I was chatting with LO and his smiling eyes seemed to be shining like they were reflecting the candles that were behind me. It’s also why I don’t like to look at SO’s eyes when he’s angry at me: I actually feel scared. I remember reading about how we’re programmed to understand the language of hand touches; maybe it’s the same with eyes?
❄️, 📕🦇,
What you’ve both said that strikes a chord here is how a load of other small signals such as facial expressions, small movements and underlying emotions all kind of ‘end up in’ the eyes, and get ‘read off’ through the eyes – and not in any way we can hope to easily put a finger on. 👀🧐 .
Out if interest, I think I can read (known) dogs’ eyes better than I can most human eyes!
Serial – out of interest, have you always found reading eyes to be around the same level of difficulty, or is it the kind of thing you can ‘train’ yourself on a bit? What else gives people away more to you if not eyes?
Snow,
I’ve read the Picture of Dorian Gray, so I can imagine about the wild degenerating eyes … but no, I’ve not seen the movie of it.
🦇 & 🚜,
I’m not good at reading body languages, which some studies suggest reveal more about one’s mind.
Hand touch is different, since one’s sensory system (through skin) is evoked through subtle energy exchange, which could (not necessarily) be highly arousing to some people… like an electrical “shock”.
Through eyes, which are not even looking at me personally, some 🧙♀️’s eyes can tell/sense a ton regardless gender, age, race… just like dogs could distinguish people through smells…
and this is the crux of it, people prone to limerence take their romances seriously.
I never could understand how most of my pals could engage in ONS’s and other casual, non-committal arrangements.
I didn’t see the point in it.. but we are wired differently. There has to be an emotional component. If that connection is missing, it only leads to disappointment.
But to nonlimerents, a relationship is more like an experiment.
Kinda like browsing whilst shopping.
Sex can just be sex, “try before you buy” was a common mantra in my day.
And so it is with flirting.
Some people’s only language seems to be “flirt”, at least with those they’re attracted to.
But they are just playing, a connection equivalent of “window shopping” but with no intention of actually leading to a purchase.
Flirting is designed to be ambiguous and plausibly deniable.
But at some point, someone is gonna have to pull the trigger if anything is gonna progress.
Adept players can spin it endlessly, escalating gradually with the intention of getting the other person to commit.
(the person who commits first is in a weaker position, because they’re in a position to be rejected. This is true in bargaining, and I assume it holds for other interactions)
Thing is, limerence tends to commit us before the connection is actually made.
We’ve already put ourselves in that weaker position, in our heads and hearts, especially those of us who are attracted to unhealthy traits..
“Thing is, limerence tends to commit us before the connection is actually made.
We’ve already put ourselves in that weaker position, in our heads and hearts.”
Simple eye contact was the number one reason my LE developed. To me it meant LO wanted connection. Which sent my head and heart into a whirlwind of high hope and emotion. When things weren’t transpiring like I thought they would, I would get nervous and start second guessing everything. Yet somehow still assuming LO wanted me. This went on for a good 5 to 6 months. The roller coaster of emotions were rampant. The signs from LO were all becoming suddenly negative and then I had to realize it wasn’t going to ever be. Which then drove me into a depression I didn’t think was possible. Her transferring out to our facility to next door only increased this sadness.
Meeting LF about a year later, after more intense eye contact from her started getting me out of the funk, but then I soon found out her eye contact obviously didn’t mean she wanted connection either. At least not in the way I did. A whole year of ups and downs, a disclosure and eventually another fallout, proves I simply don’t know what I’m doing or how to read the signals from a Woman.
Back in the day, intense eye contact usually got me somewhere with the opposite sex. Nowadays it seems to be all about playing games and leading another person on. It’s maddening. Makes me almost want to give up.
Or maybe I’m just batting in the wrong ballpark. Or I’m getting too old for the bs.
Either way, I’m at a loss for words..
Yeah, I was raised in Evangelical purity culture and I can’t imagine sleeping with somebody I’m not in love with. I don’t have the desire to.
To Tractor emoji—It’s hard to say because I’m so shy that I struggled for the longest time to even make and keep eye contact. But I’ve gotten better at that, and even became a bit of a flirt, lol. Also, as a neurodivergent and writer, I’ve read a lot about body language and facial expressions over the years, so that probably helped.
“It doesn’t matter if people are available or not.”
Dame Marcia
It does to me. If I am available and she is too I’m going to go full throttle pursuing her. In a case myself I pursed a woman that was/wasn’t available to me depending on her response to my confessions. It was common knowledge in my circle that despite being attached to another man I had painful interest in her. But LO was a disaster I couldn’t weather. So I fed the dopamine and maintained the status quo, as much as I could, at home. The line between making her feel special and getting my fix was a thin line. LO gave something no woman has ever done. And I’m still not sure how. Or why. But she did it. Intentionally or not.
“Damn girl, damn you do it well.
And I thought you were innocent
You took this heart and put it through hell
But still you’re magnificent”
Dame Marcia,
“It does to me. ”
I’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to.
Someone being available doesn’t necessarily make the flirting have meaning/intention. It could, but I wouldn’t assume it does.
The only way for a man to know if a woman is serious is for him to ask her out. If she says yes and shows up, that’s intention.
There’s no other way to tell.
Ha! The above was for you, Sir Adam. Not me. 🙂
Brother Adam..
We can learn a lot from Feisty Old Broads.. 😆
Dame Marcia
I am saying that, if I am available and the other woman is available I see no point in flirting. Say what you gotta say to her. I don’t flirt with women when I am unavailable. Limerence and LO have been the only outliner for my behavior with the opposite sex. It’s like that thing some women do where they’re mad at their man “because he doesn’t know what he did wrong but he should know what he did wrong.” I don’t really like mind games. Speak your mind.
Besides the fact that my body language always betrays my feelings long before my words do anyway. So flirting seems pointless. The gal that worked there when LO was too, told me your body betrays what you won’t admit. And I said what’s that? You like [LO]. I said yes I do like working with her. She goes no I mean you like her. Your voice softens when you talk to her. You stop whatever you are doing when she speaks to you. Your whole body leans towards her. You hold eye contact longer than with anyone else. You don’t have to say you like her or not, it’s obvious you do.
Brother
“Brother Adam..
We can learn a lot from Feisty Old Broads..”
I think outside of Miss Snow every woman is feisty regardless of age. Dame Marcia just a bit more so than most. 😊
Sir Adam,
“I am saying that, if I am available and the other woman is available I see no point in flirting. Say what you gotta say to her.”
But you’re just proving my point! You’re a limerent so you’re serious! But a lot of people aren’t. A lot of people. And this is where the misinterpretation happens for the limerent. This is why people post on here for months or years trying to figure out their LOs.
And that was my second point … you don’t need to waste years trying to figure someone out. (Trust me. I know. I’ve done it!) Just watch what they do. It will be very obvious if someone is interested and has intention. For both men and women.
“I don’t flirt with women when I am unavailable. ”
But so many people do.
” Your voice softens when you talk to her. You stop whatever you are doing when she speaks to you. Your whole body leans towards her. You hold eye contact longer than with anyone else. You don’t have to say you like her or not, it’s obvious you do.”
That’s interesting. Years ago, I had this thing about this guy and my friend figured it out. I asked how he knew, because when this guy had come in the room where the three of us were (with a lot of other people), I didn’t approach him, I didn’t wave. I didn’t even acknowledge him. He said, “The minute he comes in the room, your eyes go right to him.” Ha! And I thought I was being so subtle! 🙂
BROTHERS …
Adam says: “I think outside of Miss Snow every woman is feisty regardless of age. Dame Marcia just a bit more so than most. 😊”
That’s because most of us are grossly undersexed. Thus … all the discussions about chocolate. 🙂
Sorry. I’m in one of those moods today. 🙂
Marcia,
“That’s because most of us are grossly undersexed. Thus … all the discussions about chocolate. 🙂”
“I just see you and the other LwL ladies yakking about them.” — LaR
Is that the reason you, and some other LwL ladies, like/crave chocolate so much, and I do NOT? 😉 (I passed Target yesterday and did not feel like buying any).
Please tell me that you don’t get your regularly needed OGs only from men…. 😊… then the life would be indeed “poor”…
Do you know how to energize and drive your MFF anytime you wish❓Please take time to MASTER Vipassana to help your insomnia first… and then reap a benefit of its “side effect” — 100 times more powerful than Hu 🍫…
Snow,
“Is that the reason you, and some other LwL ladies, like/crave chocolate so much, and I do NOT? 😉 ”
Yes, you’ve written several times that you don’t want anything. 🙂
I was mostly joking. Thus the smiley faces in my post.
But do you can look it up. It’s not uncommon. Middle-age sexual dissatisfaction.
Marcia,
“Yes, you’ve written several times that you don’t want anything. 🙂”
I don’t think you understood me well. I said I do NOT NEED a lot to survive but I still want/desire the top layers of Maslow’s hierarchy of Wants” — I refuse to call them “Needs”!
Also as a couple of lyrics you quoted to me, I WANT what I’ve already have, and do NOT get upset about what I cannot have, eg. I cannot have anyone’s body, mind and soul as a whole package no matter how much I might love/desire it.
“I was mostly joking. Thus the smiley faces in my post.”
I know you were joking about Hu 🍫.
“But do you can look it up. It’s not uncommon. Middle-age sexual dissatisfaction.”
I am quite aware of such an existence around the world, but I was trying to tell you that you’d never experience such a dissatisfaction if you know how to drive your MFF (with the skills of powerful Meditation) at any given age, with or without a sex partner.… 😊 You’d be far less moody, or “pissed” by work, or gone insomnia due to whatever reasons…
Please don’t ask me to elaborate in public… 😀
Snow,
But I ask you to elaborate:)
I don’t know what you mean by „drive your MFF“. Do you mean the actual person or do you mean some kind of pleasing yourself?
Sorry to be direct, but this is an anonymous forum after all…
I‘m all for pleasing oneself and I‘m very good at it, but in my opinion it’s still not the same as being with a man. I don’t mean it’s inferior, not at all, I just mean it’s something different, and it’s not enough for me to have only that side of sexuality.
And chocolate is still another form of enjoyment that I want in my life… I mentioned a few times that my craving for sweets seem to be connected to limerence or absence of it, but I think it’s not a is k of sex. It’s more general, I turn to sweets whenever I’m stressed or tired or overwhelmed. A bad habit that I try to shake off for years. But nothing as easy as sex equals chocolate.
Mila 🍑 🍷.
Mila,
I just lost a long responsive post to you (didn’t copy first before sending 🧠 🔨) and then the system refused three times to upload AI information. So you’ll have to read the first AI information (use free DeepSeek) on “Eastern energy medicine”.
Then I’ll respond your post.
🍑 🍷,
“But I ask you to elaborate:)”
I like you too much to ignore your or to shot you up! 🙄
“I don’t know what you mean by „drive your MFF“. Do you mean the actual person or do you mean some kind of pleasing yourself?”
Last year I came up with the acronym MFF — Millennium Falcon Flight, as one’s powerful sexual journey.
“Sorry to be direct, but this is an anonymous forum after all…”
Not to all…
“I‘m all for pleasing oneself and I‘m very good at it, but in my opinion it’s still not the same as being with a man. “
It’s not the same in terms of the latter journey has sensory touches and emotional/mental connection with a partner. But in terms of MFF itself (in terms of body energy, see my previous post), the former can be equally or MORE powerful as the latter (if with an inadequate “layman”).
“I don’t mean it’s inferior, not at all, I just mean it’s something different, and it’s not enough for me to have only that side of sexuality.”
You just haven’t experienced “enough” or “more” on your own MFF… 😊 It requires learned/practiced skills…
“And chocolate is still another form of enjoyment that I want in my life… “
I did not grow up with chocolate, so I do not particularly enjoy it, sometimes am even repulsed by it. I enjoy it in Mint/vanilla Chocolate Chip ice-cream, or seem to need it (not really helpful) when my blood pressure drops to 80s-40s. (Only Salt, coffee, exercises help lbp)
“I mentioned a few times that my craving for sweets seem to be connected to limerence or absence of it, but I think it’s not a is k of sex. “
I don’t remember my limerence is related to 🍫 at all in either direction. To believe 🍫 is connected to love is a culture myth. DrL has a blog on it: https://livingwithlimerence.com/on-the-scientific-evidence-for-limerence/
“It’s more general, I turn to sweets whenever I’m stressed or tired or overwhelmed. A bad habit that I try to shake off for years. But nothing as easy as sex equals chocolate.”
To truly reduce stresses, a form of energy medicine would work better than any type of sweets. Again “sex equals chocolate” is a cultural myth, in my opinion.
I’m going to upload another AI summary, but I don’t know if the system would allow me. I’ll try.
🍑 🍷,
Let’s see if this upload would work — it can be practiced with a partner or with Self. If done well, it’s 10-40 times more powerful than a “layman” kind with the LOCAL OG (LOG), instead of the whole body energy/qi flowing, named Valley OG (VOG)… at the end of such a MFF journey, you’d be 120% stress free! (For a few hours/days, then take MFF again… )
****
“Tantra sex” refers to intimate practices rooted in **Tantra**, an ancient spiritual tradition originating in India (and later Tibet) around 5th century CE. Importantly, **classical Tantra is a broad spiritual path focused on enlightenment**, *not* primarily a sexual practice. However, *some* lineages within Tantra (particularly certain left-hand paths) incorporate sacred sexuality as a tool for spiritual growth and energy transformation.
Here’s a breakdown of key aspects, separating tradition from modern interpretations:
### Core Principles of Tantric Sexuality (Within the Spiritual Context)
1. **Sacred Union:** Sex is viewed as a sacred ritual, a pathway to connect with the divine (within oneself, one’s partner, and the universe), not just physical pleasure.
2. **Energy Cultivation (Prana/Shakti-Kundalini):** Focuses on harnessing and circulating sexual energy (*ojas* or *kundalini*) for spiritual awakening and healing, not just release.
3. **Conscious Presence:** Deep mindfulness, breathwork (*pranayama*), and meditation are central. Partners aim to stay fully present in each moment of the experience.
4. **Union of Polarities (Shiva-Shakti):** Represents the merging of masculine (Shiva – consciousness) and feminine (Shakti – creative energy) principles within individuals and between partners, aiming for balance and wholeness.
5. **Delaying Orgasm:** Emphasis is often placed on prolonging intimacy and building energy, potentially leading to deeper connection and full-body energetic experiences beyond a typical genital orgasm (*valley orgasm* vs. *peak orgasm*).
6. **Non-Goal Oriented:** The focus is on the *journey* of connection and energy flow, not solely on achieving orgasm as an endpoint.
### Common Practices in Modern Tantric Sex
* **Ritual & Intention Setting:** Creating a sacred space, setting intentions for the connection.
* **Deep Eye Gazing (Soul Gazing):** Sustained eye contact to build intimacy beyond words.
* **Conscious Touch & Massage:** Slow, mindful, full-body touching focused on sensation and presence.
* **Synchronized Breathing:** Breathing together to align energies and deepen connection.
* **Pelvic Floor Awareness (Mula Bandha):** Engaging and relaxing pelvic muscles to direct energy.
* **Extended Lovemaking:** Slowing down pace, focusing on sensation and connection over performance.
* **Energy Circulation:** Visualization or breathwork to move sexual energy upwards through the body’s energy centers (chakras).
* **Sacred Spot Massage (Yoni/Lingam):** Ritualized, mindful touch of genitals with a focus on presence and energetic exchange, not just stimulation.
### Important Distinctions & Misconceptions
1. **Not Just “Better Sex”:** While it can enhance intimacy and pleasure, its core aim in tradition is spiritual transformation, not just improved sexual technique.
2. **Beyond Genital Focus:** It emphasizes whole-body energy, heart connection, and presence. Genital orgasm might be de-emphasized or transformed.
3. **Consent & Communication are Paramount:** Deep vulnerability requires explicit, ongoing consent and open communication.
4. **Not About Endurance Alone:** While lasting longer can be a side effect, the goal is presence and energy flow, not just duration.
5. **Modern “Neo-Tantra”:** Much of what’s called “Tantra sex” in the West is “Neo-Tantra” – adapted practices inspired by Tantric concepts but often divorced from the rigorous spiritual framework and guru lineage of classical Tantra. It tends to focus more on intimacy, pleasure, and personal growth than enlightenment.
6. **Potential for Misuse:** Be wary of practitioners or groups using “Tantra” as a guise for manipulation or unethical sexual practices. Legitimate teachers emphasize ethics, boundaries, and respect.
### Potential Benefits (Often Cited)
* Deeper emotional & spiritual intimacy with partner(s)
* Enhanced body awareness & sensual pleasure
* Reduced performance anxiety
* Improved communication & trust
* Greater capacity for presence & mindfulness
* Exploration of expanded states of consciousness
* Healing around sexuality or body image (often requires skilled guidance)
* More fulfilling and connected sexual experiences
### Considerations & Cautions
* **Requires Commitment:** It’s a practice requiring patience, mindfulness, and willingness to explore beyond habitual patterns.
* **Emotional Intensity:** Can bring up deep emotions or past experiences. A safe container (like a trusted partner or skilled facilitator) is crucial.
* **Finding Authentic Teachers:** Research teachers/trainings carefully. Look for those emphasizing ethics, consent, and clear boundaries. Avoid those promising instant results or making grandiose claims.
* **Start Slowly:** Begin with foundational practices like breathwork, eye gazing, and mindful touch before attempting more advanced techniques.
* **Not Therapy:** While potentially healing, it’s not a substitute for professional therapy for sexual trauma or significant relationship issues.
**In essence:** Tantra sex, when practiced authentically and ethically, is a profound exploration of intimacy, consciousness, and energy. It uses sexuality as a sacred pathway to deepen connection (with self, partner, spirit) and transform energy for holistic well-being. Distinguish between its spiritual roots and modern adaptations, prioritize consent and communication, and approach it with mindfulness and respect.
🍑 🍷 ,
If you ask me one more question in the above regard, I’m going to hunt down the frequently vexed, “grumpy” Mila in 🇩🇪 ! 🙄
🤭 🫖 🤗
Hi Snow,
Tantric or not, there’s a difference between sex alone or sex with a partner, be it fantastic or bad. Still my opinion, and still my opinion that I want both.
I‘m on my way to my holidays with my family, I‘m looking forward to it very much!
So I‘ll set you all free from apparently often vexed and grumpy Mila (??), at least for a while, and I’m not very sure I‘ll return at all.
Have a good time, all of you!
Ps
Sorry Snow if this came over too curtly, I’m traveling at the moment- forgot to say thanks for the article about tantric sex! I thought you meant „mentally fondled friend“ by MFF, by the way, and got confused.
Still, I think I’ll concentrate on my holidays for now- have a good summer, dear limerents!
Mila 🍑 🍷,
“Tantric or not, there’s a difference between sex alone or sex with a partner, be it fantastic or bad. Still my opinion, and still my opinion that I want both.”
Before I even quote AI information, I already confirmed your “difference” between sex alone or with a partner — bad ones (if also not with LO) could drag one into Dante’s “Inferno” (had once with that lonely Lawyer 👨🏼💼 ), trust me! 🙄
“I‘m on my way to my holidays with my family, I‘m looking forward to it very much!”
Have a grant time vacationing with your family in Italy and elsewhere, I enjoyed mine in Florence — Butt City, back in April….
“So I‘ll set you all free from apparently often vexed and grumpy Mila (??), at least for a while, and I’m not very sure I‘ll return at all.”
Just pulling your leg to see where you ARE … 🤭 (I was referring to the old Mila still in LE or during her MFF’s visit)…. Oh, I entreat you: DO not set me free from your lovely vexation and grumpiness, which I’m overly fond of… 💗
A small correction of my own acronym: MFF 🟰 Mentally Fondled Friends. MFf 🟰 Millennium Falcon flight.
I hope you don’t abandon us once for all but come back to see us from time to time… 🫂
Hi Mila,
I’m commenting less frequent/ prolific than some others, yet I am one of the voices who are still striving out of limerence.
Please do not leave lwl, because of the above whatever blah blah….
unless you feel its right time for you. Many appreciate your inputs and openness and honest advice.
Do enjoy your holiday ! Have a great time.
Imho / Mila,
I second you 💃, and also second Snow. Mila – your frank yet kind input is appreciated by many of us here.
Mila – have a nice holiday – lord knows you have earned it – but don’t leave totally, unless of course it is the right time for you to.
Imho, how are you doing now?
Happy Hols Mila,
You have been counting down to your holidays for quite a few weeks now and they are finally here!
As someone who has already had her holidays, I am feeling an immense sense of FOMO!!
😎🏄♀️👒
Imho, LaR, Bewitched
Thanks for your comments, I’m touched that you think of me!
Imho:😘
LaR,
Thank you for asking. I’m back in NC after I broke it. I had something compelling to share with LO. Kidding myself of course!
The ‘meh’ response I received has helped me double down on NC.
I think there is an unwritten rule that you don’t initiate contact more than 3 times in a row, however spread out those initiations are.
I have essentially grieved the loss ( probably still am), trying not to worry about his circumstances, because I am not the one to help him.
I know to just let it be.
DoH ? I hear you ask.
Not yet, but hopefully soon.
💃🏻
Imho,
“I had something compelling to share with LO.”
I giggled at that 🤭. I relate. Don’t be hard on yourself – backslides happen and you’ve gone a long time from what you have said with only this one.
“The ‘meh’ response I received has helped me double down on NC.”
Euch. But also good. One thing I’d say is that if he is meh by text now, it doesn’t invalidate what you felt/knew in the past. It was there, it is just maybe he knows this was the right time to move on. One day, when there is distance, I might have to be ‘that person’ too. Doesn’t mean stuff wasn’t real enough at the time.
“…because I am not the one to help him.
I know to just let it be.”
Wise insight, though I bet difficult if he’s in need somehow
“DoH ? I hear you ask.
Not yet, but hopefully soon.”
What you described above sounds like part of that process. H dies a slow D. I needed to practically be hit with a reality sledgehammer to start the process!
Thank you for the kind words and support as always. Some of what you said was insightful too.
Glad you are doing well too. Your circumstances are actually much more tricky to navigate than mine.
To come out of an LE as friends is a major achievement.
I have given up on that goal for myself.
Imho,
“To come out of an LE as friends is a major achievement”
Thank you, but don’t give me too much credit – I’m not counting my chickens. The working closely together side is equally a blessing and a curse. The curse side is that it slows down the end: I don’t get to experience what you do at the moment … what effect natural distance would have on it. The blessing side is that for us to continue working together even half effectively , we’ve had to rebuild something a bit more sensible, and that version *might* create a bedrock for a longer-lasting friendship.
But Mila said something interesting to me a while ago – if you took away both limerence, and work as the basis for the ongoing relationship (like in Mila’s situation) … what’s left? I don’t know the answer, and I can’t really know until we work separately. I am about 60%+ that we will end up as friends. I think we both want to.
I both envy and feel sad for you about the distance you have. The envy is that I’d love the peace and quiet of distance to really settle my head. The other side is that I know I can still access my dopamine hits at a lower level (another “equally a curse and a blessing” thing). I feel calmer and in more control (not ‘leaking’ now) but it creates a really slow ‘death’ this way. Maybe that’s the same even with distance. I do still believe I have killed *hope* (no part of me now thinks or hopes that relations will ever happen between us), but I haven’t killed all the last residual affection I feel for her.
Damned limerence!
Keep going!
🚜,
Maybe take it as ‘future credit’ I gave you, as I think you will get there.
You seem on a good track with the contact you have. You are winning against the recommended NC.
How many people have we genuinely kept in contact with as actual friends after one or the other has left a workplace? Probably a lot fewer than expected or even promised at the time because as you / Mila indicated “if you took away both limerence, and work as the basis for the ongoing relationship … what’s left?”
This is why I panicked when LO suddenly left the organisation.
The connector is gone.
its actually a good perspective to fast forward time and consider this for yourself.
A male friend at work retired and voiced his feelings after some time that I didn’t keep in contact with him as much as a friend should.
I was just busier than him. I think he had a crush, maybe more. I really hope he wasn’t limerent. It’s only now I reflect on that possibility since my LE.
Damn this limerence for all that suffer !
💃🏻
Whoops !
I am 💃🏻 You are 🚜
One day I will tell you about the meaning of 🚜’s to me !
💃,
How is it that I keep on finding these women who have backstories with tractors here?
(And yeah🍧 📣, I know you’re still out there, somewhere!)
Yes! a big hello to Trifles too –
I hope you are doing well if you pass by.
I believe it is a good year for crops this year.
Feed the world🌞
Now that’s the spirit Imho ..
Wherever you go, grow🌽🌽 🌽, and await the harvest!
Marcia,
“Hopefully it’ll be like my recent Glimmer-lite and when you encounter him again, he’ll be much less shimmery. 🙂”
I met my new glimmer for the 2nd time last evening; he appeared more “shimmery” — younger, slimmer with a more stylish, wavy haircut, less self-conscious/nervous, and more humble. He’s a smart and fast learner, which would pleases all 👩🏫s. His younger partner (in his late 20s) was more enthusiastically engaged as usual. It’s enjoyable tutoring them.
I did/do not feel more enlivened or excited by the 2nd encounter of this glimmer, although the session was more enjoyable than with the other new pupil (with a lovely fiancé).
One is luckier if one is able to enjoy one’s chosen work/job.
How are you feeling today? Better or worse than yesterday? Did you take more Hu 🍫? Try some of manageable meditations if you can, and I hope your day and weekend go stress-free and lovely… 😊
The Patience of Ordinary Things
Pat Schneider
1934 –2020
It is a kind of love, is it not?
How the cup holds the tea,
How the chair stands sturdy and foursquare,
How the floor receives the bottoms of shoes
Or toes. How soles of feet know
Where they’re supposed to be.
I’ve been thinking about the patience
Of ordinary things, how clothes
Wait respectfully in closets
And soap dries quietly in the dish,
And towels drink the wet
From the skin of the back.
And the lovely repetition of stairs.
And what is more generous than a window?
*****
From various perspectives
in different moods
NOT in limerence —
one sees beauty and love in ordinary living…
🐦🔥
Snow,
“I met my new glimmer for the 2nd time last evening; he appeared more “shimmery” — younger, slimmer with a more stylish, wavy haircut, less self-conscious/nervous, and more humble. He’s a smart and fast learner, which would pleases all 👩🏫s. His younger partner (in his late 20s) was more enthusiastically engaged as usual. It’s enjoyable tutoring them.
I did/do not feel more enlivened or excited by the 2nd encounter of this glimmer, although the session was more enjoyable than with the other new pupil (with a lovely fiancé).”
I’m confused. He appeared more glimmery but you weren’t as excited?
Does the fiance being there not kind of kill it? I would think that would be like throwing cold water on a lady boner. 🙂
“How are you feeling today? Better or worse than yesterday? Did you take more Hu 🍫? Try some of manageable meditations if you can, and I hope your day and weekend go stress-free and lovely… 😊”
Oh, no. I was very bad. I bought one of those rolls of pre-made chocolate chip cookie dough and made several cookies with it and also at the raw dough. I overdid it. 🙂
Chocolate never disappoints. That was my whole point about the Hu. I do NOT think it’s a substitute for sex, but its merits are much more predictable than sex, which can disappoint.
Marcia,
“I’m confused. He appeared more glimmery but you weren’t as excited?”
No, I was/am not more excited, just enjoyed glimmer as it was. I think the reminder that we talked about is working — Enjoy external beauty/attraction as what it is, without letting it dominate/drive our lizard brain. That’s my previous point — I can live with my desire, but not get upset if I cannot feed my desire further or completely.
“Does the fiance being there not kind of kill it? I would think that would be like throwing cold water on a lady boner. 🙂”
The fiancée (for a different, 1st-time new pupil) just stayed briefly when I arrived at their home. This guy’s glimmer is level 2-3 to me, although he’s very, very smart. His fiancee looks very smart and lovely, too. They look like in non-limerent camp.
“Oh, no. I was very bad. I bought one of those rolls of pre-made chocolate chip cookie dough and made several cookies with it and also at the raw dough. I overdid it. 🙂”
Oh, your Ladyship! 😀 you’re addicted to chocolate 🍫 stuff!
“Chocolate never disappoints. That was my whole point about the Hu. “
If one likes chocolate, it can never disappoint. It also can have a placebo effect to some people in improving their moods. I occasionally take dark chocolate 80% ~ 85% + but don’t really enjoy their flavor. The homemade chocolate chip cookies are deadly, I just don’t buy them. Cupcakes or cakes, even if homemade, don’t usually attract me at all, they are tooth-killing sweet.
My junk food for nibbling is “slim” popcorn; I avoid buying chips of all kinds. I have a lifetime addiction in Saving Money, so it is a lot easier for me to put addictive stuff from my basket back to shelves.
“I do NOT think it’s a substitute for sex, but its merits are much more predictable than sex, which can disappoint.”
You have more rational mind in 🍫’s merits. Sex? Even it’s with a LO or a seemingly “profession”, it could be very, very disappointing…
Snow,
“Enjoy external beauty/attraction as what it is, without letting it dominate/drive our lizard brain. That’s my previous point — I can live with my desire, but not get upset if I cannot feed my desire further or completely.”
Usually, I can, too. There’s not enough there compelling me to do anything about it. Like Glimmer-lite.
“The fiancée (for a different, 1st-time new pupil) just stayed briefly when I arrived at their home. This guy’s glimmer is level 2-3 to me, although he’s very, very smart. His fiancee looks very smart and lovely, too. They look like in non-limerent camp.”
Ok. So this is a different guy? My dear, do you glimmer for all your male students? 🙂 (I’m kidding. This is a joke. Just to be clear. 🙂 )
“Oh, your Ladyship! 😀 you’re addicted to chocolate 🍫 stuff!”
I love sugar. 🙂
“It also can have a placebo effect to some people in improving their moods. I occasionally take dark chocolate 80% ~ 85% + but don’t really enjoy their flavor.”
80 or 85 percent can be a touch bitter. I think the Hu I eat is 70%.
” The homemade chocolate chip cookies are deadly, I just don’t buy them. Cupcakes or cakes, even if homemade, don’t usually attract me at all, they are tooth-killing sweet.”
I can stay away from sweets for weeks or months on end, even if other people are eating them in front of me. And then one day I’ll go to the store and pass by the cookies or cakes … and think : To hell with it. I’m getting some! 🙂
“My junk food for nibbling is “slim” popcorn”
Popcorn is air food. It’s like eating celery. Or rice cakes. 🙂
“You have more rational mind in 🍫’s merits. Sex? Even it’s with a LO or a seemingly “profession”, it could be very, very disappointing…”
I’ve not had it with an LO where it was disappointing. Maybe it got less intense over time.
But sometimes you feel no need to do it again with someone.
I agree with what you wrote to Mila. I’ll pass if it’s like that. I feel that way about that hook up I had recently.
Marcia,
“There’s not enough there compelling me to do anything about it. Like Glimmer-lite.”
Actually this Glimmer-lite’s grade increased from 5 (1st time) to 6 (2nd time); I hope it would NOT keep increasing 😉. Even it does, I would not do anything (he’s married with COO wife).
I just think that our long discussions about attraction, Glimmer, and Limerence have made my mind more aware and rational, seeing and enjoying attraction/glimmer as that they are, not letting them ignorantly go wild to a tipping point like in the past before LwL.
“Ok. So this is a different guy? My dear, do you glimmer for all your male students? 🙂 (I’m kidding. This is a joke. Just to be clear. 🙂 )”
I love your humor 😂 Of course, I observe and assess males all the time, despite I’m 286 yrs already — an aged mental habit 🤭 ; otherwise, how could I claim myself a straight woman❓🙄 For whatever bizarre reasons, all my private young professionals students are males, single or with COO bf/gf/wife, except this new one — Glimmer 1/2 (the couple is from Israel and to be married soon in October).
“I love sugar. 🙂”
I love Carbo food — freshly baked 🥖, 🥐, scallion pancakes, and rice (not sugar), but they not only make me gain weight fast, but also feel easily tired. They literally make my thighs feeling heavier and fatigued. If I cut off Carbo food for just three days, I’d feel like flying with lighter thighs and legs.
“I can stay away from sweets for weeks or months on end, even if other people are eating them in front of me. And then one day I’ll go to the store and pass by the cookies or cakes … and think : To hell with it. I’m getting some! 🙂”
It sounds like you’re staying away from sweets with willpower, so once in a while, it would slip. for me, I don’t have natural craving for sweets, so I don’t go binge. Except once in my entire life: binged ice-cream for one month (ate a whole box and then vomited it out) after left LO4.5 and before my first Vipassana retreat. Afterwards, I never felt a need to binge on anything.
“Popcorn is air food. It’s like eating celery. Or rice cakes. 🙂”
Popcorn (not celery), rice cakes or vegetables crackers are very tasty for me; I also crave for salty and spicy food. When I felt stressed in the past, it was not food itself, but the MOTION of nibbling/chewing that helped reduce anxiety or nervousness, like someone chewing their finger nails or playing with their hair. Nowadays, I try to stay away from popcorns even when I “binge” Tubi (free with ads)
“I’ve not had it with an LO where it was disappointing. Maybe it got less intense over time.”
It’s natural to become less intense once one passes 45 (except those who are trained). With all my ex LOs (unknowing LO1, 3, 7 — platonic) and dates, they were inadequate (including SO) and I did not understand why, until I learned meditation and TS (talked with Mila) at age of 38…. Then I became a Master to myself mostly…
One needs to be self-reliant in all necessities of life, so as never feel discontent/dissatisfied whether with or without a partner, at any given age (remember COO’s Empress Wu’s legend I told you?) 😊
“But sometimes you feel no need to do it again with someone.
I agree with what you wrote to Mila. I’ll pass if it’s like that. I feel that way about that hook up I had recently.”
Just pass lousy one, If it did/could not reach to your satisfactory level. No need to waste your precious energy on inadequate hookups or fwbs, unless he is a LO and you just want to lovingly “give/train” him (no fawning on either side, please)… 😉
In terms of circulating, energizing, and recharging vital, passionate Qi of both sides, who is more important “professional” in a duel SE “dance”❓Reading my AI info to Mila, you’d figure out .… 🙂
Your ladyship, I wish you to be more of a real Master to your own wellbeing — all your 16 Selves, whether lucky or not to find an external, male “Professional”….
Snow,
“Actually this Glimmer-lite’s grade increased from 5 (1st time) to 6 (2nd time); I hope it would NOT keep increasing 😉. ”
Hopefully, it won’t.
“I just think that our long discussions about attraction, Glimmer, and Limerence have made my mind more aware and rational, seeing and enjoying attraction/glimmer as that they are, not letting them ignorantly go wild to a tipping point like in the past before LwL.”
I don’t think of attraction, glimmer and limerence as rational. Certainly how one chooses to react to them can be. But sometimes being in control all the time can get a little boring.
“Of course, I observe and assess males all the time”
I don’t really. They either catch my eye or they don’t. They have to “register” before I take the time to observe. 🙂
“despite I’m 286 yrs already — an aged mental habit 🤭”
I’m older than you! I’m 350! 🙂
“I love Carbo food — freshly baked 🥖, 🥐, scallion pancakes, and rice (not sugar), but they not only make me gain weight fast, but also feel easily tired.”
Yeah, me too. Carbo foods all turn into sugar in the body, anyway. It’s a similar craving but different taste profile.
“It sounds like you’re staying away from sweets with willpower, so once in a while, it would slip. for me, ”
It does. It slips. I’d probably be better off allowing little sweet treats here and there. So the sweets don’t have so much weight in my mind as being forbidden.
“When I felt stressed in the past, it was not food itself, but the MOTION of nibbling/chewing that helped reduce anxiety or nervousness, like someone chewing their finger nails or playing with their hair. ”
I had a friend who chewed her nails. It looked like it hurt. They were so gnawed down.
“It’s natural to become less intense once one passes 45 (except those who are trained). ”
I wasn’t talking about age. I was talking about how sex becomes less intense with the same person over time. You’re not going to be dying for it with someone you’ve been with for a while.
“With all my ex LOs (unknowing LO1, 3, 7 — platonic) and dates, they were inadequate (including SO) and I did not understand why, until I learned meditation and TS (talked with Mila) at age of 38…. Then I became a Master to myself mostly…”
I’m going to agree with Mila. There’s a big difference between being on one’s own and being with a partner. However, as I wrote to you, I’d rather have no partner than one I don’t want to be with or don’t enjoy being with.
“Just pass lousy one, If it did/could not reach to your satisfactory level. ”
There wasn’t anything wrong with what he did, per se. I just wasn’t that interested in him and the whole thing felt “blech.”
“who is more important “professional” in a duel SE “dance””
I’ve written this before. I don’t understand most of your acronyms. 🙂
Marcia,
[Actually this Glimmer-lite’s grade increased from 5 (1st time) to 6 (2nd time); I hope it would NOT keep increasing 😉. ]
“Hopefully, it won’t.”
“Let me changing the term here: instead of “Glimmer” which has “bad” connotation now, I’ll use “appealing”, so putting the emphasis on the other side. Thus, this guy’s appealing level has increased from 5 to 6 (like you read the same book in different times). I noticed it but my calm enjoyment of his appealing remains the same.
“I don’t think of attraction, glimmer and limerence as rational. Certainly how one chooses to react to them can be. But sometimes being in control all the time can get a little boring.”
Putting a mental awareness on something is different from “in control” to me, particularly in this kind of situation.
“I don’t really. They either catch my eye or they don’t. They have to “register” before I take the time to observe. 🙂”
That’s our difference. I mentioned before that my biggest personality trait is curiosity. I observe men, women, children, dogs, elderly most of the time. People watching is my favorite hobby, which rarely bores me. It takes me out of myself in public. Only during the throe of a LE, I could lose tracts of what’s going on around me while running errands outside, my mind was turned within.
“Yeah, me too. Carbo foods all turn into sugar in the body, anyway. It’s a similar craving but different taste profile.”
I haven’t bought rice for over 2 decades except when I was sick. I rarely eat Carbo food for dinner, only vegetables, fish/meat, fruits, Green tea. After the surgery, I’ve been eating the rice congee due to the slow stomach recovery, which made me feel so tired. The digestion is getting better, I can eat a bit meat balls and fish now.
“It does. It slips. I’d probably be better off allowing little sweet treats here and there. So the sweets don’t have so much weight in my mind as being forbidden.”
I totally agree with you here. Don’t treat sweets as total “devil”, and nibble them a bit here or there, like I eat a bit carbo here or there before early afternoon.
“I had a friend who chewed her nails. It looked like it hurt. They were so gnawed down.”
I never chewed my nails or twiddled my hair. Remember my chic French professor I talked before? She told me and that “selfless” Japanese gf (in our swimming sauna room) that she’d grab any scissors to chop/trim her hair randomly when she was stressed out.. 😳 No wonder she always wore that black chic, head-fitting, round-hat (with no makeup but lipsticks sometimes) . Every girl/woman has her own ways to destress.. 😊
“I wasn’t talking about age. I was talking about how sex becomes less intense with the same person over time. You’re not going to be dying for it with someone you’ve been with for a while.”
In general, it’s true. But it’s not the entire situation (I learned this after I had my incidental discovery/practices). SK (sex skills) can be improved through practices; and SE (sex energy) can be increased through one’s “internship”/mastery — highly focused meditation; YF (youth fountain) can be rejuvenated through repeated VOG (check my posted to Mila) — it even reduce/breaks down many common alignments (I benefited), eg. like upper/lower back pains, lower waist aching, mild cold, head fogs, etc.
The principle behind it is energy medicine: body energy/qi (SE is most powerful one) circulation/flow clears up jammed meridian tunnels in the whole body and thus reduce aches all over the places…
“I’m going to agree with Mila. There’s a big difference between being on one’s own and being with a partner.”
Can you or Mila quote my original words where I said there is NO or NO big difference❓or I preferred it “on one’s own” to “with a partner”❓
Before I put out AI information, I said, “
[It’s not the same in terms of the latter journey has sensory touches and emotional/mental connection with a partner. But in terms of MFF itself (in terms of body energy, see my previous post), the former can be equally or MORE powerful as the latter (if with an inadequate “layman”).]
Sensory touches/exchanges and emotional/mental connection/bonding with a partner is missing entirely in the solo journey, and I certainly know the stimulation differences (after 7 yrs marriage) — one through the physical intimacy; the other through a powerful meditation by oneself or with a partner (TSE).
Nonetheless, in terms of flowing of BE (body energy) and SE (sex energy), MFf itself is the same for both men or women. If one knows how to do it alone, MFf can be equally powerful or more powerful than with a partner, especially a (lousy) layman one.
Do you, or Mila, or some known/visible posters, really know what I’m talking about here❓ 🙂. Sorry to point out that one can’t argue with anyone else about something one has no/little experiences, except superficial information /knowledge.
“ However, as I wrote to you, I’d rather have no partner than one I don’t want to be with or don’t enjoy being with.”
We are on the same page here. The issue is when without a regular SE partner, how is one going to meet her/his own SE “needs” — I do consider it a “need/desire” which one (if not Catholic priests, monks, nuns) cannot die without but live “miserably”/stressfully if terribly/totally lacks of it❓
“There wasn’t anything wrong with what he did, per se. I just wasn’t that interested in him and the whole thing felt “blech.”
Understandable. I haven’t found anyone interesting enough to pass my knowledge and meditative skills
[“who is more important “professional” in a duel SE “dance”]
“I’ve written this before. I don’t understand most of your acronyms. 🙂”
SE: Sexual energy or Sexual experience; TSE: Tantric Sex/Spiritual experience.
The answer to my own question is: woman — her Ying energy and skills can enhance her BP (beloved person) into (more of) a “professional” or reduce/kill his Yang energy if she’s lousy…
I would really like to close this topic… 🫂
Let me present you a dish — Carbo free with “bitter melon” (the green melon with chicken like skin), bitter melon leaves, ground pork, bitter melon flowers, chopped mushrooms, spicy pepper, garlic, green onions (scallions).
I can cook it now if I have that bitter melon flowers and leaves! (A supermarket here does not sell them)
1 minute video:
https://youtube.com/shorts/ffy4zCzZIGw?si=LAw9y7Y5I0DuHBdW
You want to try 🥢 it, Marcia 😝
A couple of songs to accompany a Chinese, tasty dinner — the bitter Melon feast
1. https://youtu.be/PW-kxx4TqN0?si=9R-8VXNKYScm_Whk — The Crown (Bitter-Melon Love?)
2. https://youtu.be/eXSdQ2hXy3U?si=gStt3RMlQsRq-ID8 — Crane’s Cry (mostly resemble BTS’s Jimin)
3. https://youtu.be/x2muOlHZVtA?si=zJrnPdBIF3pARoo_ — I came to honor mortal life (the Moon Festival Party 2024)
Snow,
“Thus, this guy’s appealing level has increased from 5 to 6 (like you read the same book in different times). I noticed it but my calm enjoyment of his appealing remains the same.”
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “appealing.” To me, if I feel an attraction, I feel an energy, a nervousness, a tension. Ain’t nothing calm about it. 🙂 It’s in levels so sometimes it’s just kind of a low buzz. That’s different than meeting someone and noticing he’s maybe objectively handsome but feeling no buzz.
“Putting a mental awareness on something is different from “in control” to me, particularly in this kind of situation.”
I don’t really want to be putting a mental awareness on it. I just want to feel it. And usually it’s not motivating enough to prompt me to do anything stupid. 🙂
“That’s our difference. I mentioned before that my biggest personality trait is curiosity. I observe men, women, children, dogs, elderly most of the time. ”
Well, you were talking about men. Certain men will catch my eye. Doesn’t mean there aren’t others who I meet and enjoy talking to.
“I haven’t bought rice for over 2 decades except when I was sick.”
I’m the same. When I feel sick, I eat rice or bread or plain noodles. Proteins feel too heavy.
” She told me and that “selfless” Japanese gf (in our swimming sauna room) that she’d grab any scissors to chop/trim her hair randomly when she was stressed out.. 😳 No wonder she always wore that black chic, head-fitting, round-hat (with no makeup but lipsticks sometimes) .”
Oh, no.
“Every girl/woman has her own ways to destress.. 😊””
True
“In general, it’s true. But it’s not the entire situation (I learned this after I had my incidental discovery/practices). SK (sex skills) can be improved through practices; ”
There’s no such thing, IMO, as universal sex skills. Sexual preferences are individual and specific. So, yes, a person can get better at what their partner likes or be willing to try it.
But, fundamentally, IMO, you also need a certain level of sexual compatibility with someone, regardless of your feelings for them.
“Can you or Mila quote my original words where I said there is NO or NO big difference❓or I preferred it “on one’s own” to “with a partner”❓”
No. I’m just agreeing with Mila. That’s all.
“Do you, or Mila, or some known/visible posters, really know what I’m talking about here❓ 🙂. Sorry to point out that one can’t argue with anyone else about something one has no/little experiences, except superficial information /knowledge.”
No, I don’t know what you are talking about.
It sounds like a lot of work to learn. And there are other things I want to focus on. 🙂
Where is LaR? There’s a series on AppleTV called “Platonic.” A comedy series. The second season starts in a couple of days. A man and woman who really are platonic friends. One of the reasons I really like it. The writers don’t go off on some tangent that they have hidden feelings. Though their closeness does get in the way of their romantic relationships. Seth Myers and Rose Byrne star in it.
Anyway, he asks her how her “relations” are with her husband. He’s joking. She says they last too long. He asks how long. She says a half an hour.
“Half an hour!” Seth yells incredulously. “That’s ‘Modern Family’ plus commercials!”
I busted out laughing at that. I mention this because I know you’re reading this, going into conniptions! 🙂 I’ll pass on the tantric stuff. I don’t have that much time left on this planet. 🙂
” I do consider it a “need/desire” which one (if not Catholic priests, monks, nuns) cannot die without but live “miserably”/stressfully if terribly/totally lacks of it❓”
I’m actually going to disagree with you on this. I consider it a want.
“I would really like to close this topic… 🫂”
You were the one who brought it up.
Marcia,
“I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “appealing.”
Appealing to me means “looking objectively handsome /pleasant”. His hairstyle improved, and his toro looked a bit slimmer or fitter than two weeks before.
“To me, if I feel an attraction, I feel an energy, a nervousness, a tension. Ain’t nothing calm about it. 🙂”
That’s not me. I felt pleasant attraction and a big higher energy, but no nervousness or tension. Since I was the instructor, he’s in the position to feel a bit tension, as a self-conscious student. But he looked more relaxed than the first time two days before my surgery.
“It’s in levels so sometimes it’s just kind of a low buzz. That’s different than meeting someone and noticing he’s maybe objectively handsome but feeling no buzz.”
My lady, you really scan your feelings all the time, hun? I was teaching and needed to concentrate on my instructions, not any buzz inside me…. When I’m mindful at work, my emotions of all kinds subside — that’s how I was brought up.
“I don’t really want to be putting a mental awareness on it. I just want to feel it. And usually it’s not motivating enough to prompt me to do anything stupid. 🙂”
I think in this regard, I’m much less emotional than many of limerents here; I rarely “strive” to feel this person or that one. Now after learning through LwL, I want to put a mental awareness in whatever I see and do. My logical mind is very strong when LE is totally absent. Right now, I have a G5/6 (Glimmer level 5/6), but LE0.
“Well, you were talking about men. Certain men will catch my eye. Doesn’t mean there aren’t others who I meet and enjoy talking to.”
You were joking with me about my glimmering at men all the time, so I did not mention other people whom I also often observe. I think men assess our side as well all the time in their head. I don’t particularly focus on men only in the street, but all people, which include even “negative glimmer” in some men and women… 😀
“Every girl/woman has her own ways to destress.. 😊””
True
In that sauna room, I witnessed my chic French professor with the chopped/chewed hair (boyish short) several times. You see, I got to observe the underneath of a superficially chic woman, who drew the attention of a half block of people (LO6 included). She was very argumentative and opinionated like a typical French (📣 Excluding you, 🍨 !)
“There’s no such thing, IMO, as universal sex skills. “
Such an opinion does NOT know how SE works inside a human body universally, regardless race, gender, and culture. You’re very romantic but less physiological/biological.
“Sexual preferences are individual and specific. So, yes, a person can get better at what their partner likes or be willing to try it.”
You’re taking about personal SE preference, not how SE actually works biologically inside a human body.
“But, fundamentally, IMO, you also need a certain level of sexual compatibility with someone, regardless of your feelings for them.”
Perhaps you’ve read about what Sting does with his second wife, and why Ralph Fiennes had to divorce his wife, and why Audrey’s 2nd husband began cheating on her 9 months after their marriage….
“No. I’m just agreeing with Mila. That’s all.”
I agree with her, too, that I want both kinds as well. But what are you going to do before you have a LTR? Dating around to hopefully hunt or stay at home to depressively whine?
“No, I don’t know what you are talking about.
It sounds like a lot of work to learn. And there are other things I want to focus on. 🙂”
Nope. You (most of you) don’t know what I was talking about, and it’s ignorant assumption that there is a lot work involved to learn and practice. For women, it could take as little as one SE session (A right professional/master is needed); for men, it’s “astronomically” harder 🙄. For both sides, a highly focused, meditative mind is required, which can simultaneously benefit one’s overall health.
“Where is LaR?”
Perhaps lost in his LarLarLar land with his SO in one arm, MFF in another…
“There’s a series on AppleTV called “Platonic.” A comedy series. The second season starts in a couple of days. A man and woman who really are platonic friends.”
Maybe I should subscribe AppleTV for a month. I’m in a mood for comedy and couldn’t help wanna tease nowadays. 🤭 🙊 (sorry I’m unable to sympathize with those new comers’ LE pains, so I’d better to stay 🤐 )
“One of the reasons I really like it. The writers don’t go off on some tangent that they have hidden feelings. Though their closeness does get in the way of their romantic relationships. “
I could have a PPF with men. But those men’s SO often got jealous or uneasy; they feared that I was “Little Three” (In COO, the 3rd leg) material, while I was a hardcore romantics and highly intuitive Glimmer sensor. If a man did not glimmer in the 1st 5 seconds after I causally spotted him, he’d lose his chance to the next life.
“Seth Myers and Rose Byrne star in it.”
I think Seth Myers is funny in his Late Night show. He’s subtler and softer than loud/robust Colbert or John Oliver. I used to watch them a lot. I don’t think I’ve seen Rose Byrne’s acting.
“Anyway, he asks her how her “relations” are with her husband. He’s joking. She says they last too long. He asks how long. She says a half an hour.
“Half an hour!” Seth yells incredulously. “That’s ‘Modern Family’ plus commercials!”
I busted out laughing at that. I mention this because I know you’re reading this, going into conniptions! 🙂
😂 😂 😂, that’s too funny! I love double/triple meanings lines… I try to use multiple meanings words in my Rose lines 🏵️ ✍️ …
“I’ll pass on the tantric stuff. I don’t have that much time left on this planet. 🙂”
I was not talking about tantric stuff alone, but whole body meditation (TS is just one type, but the most powerful kind). Without some forms of mindful meditation ongoing, imp, one wouldn’t know how to reduce anxieties, stresses and insomnia and increase more Agape love, joy, and natural dopamine — yes, healthy dopamine❗️
By the way, my meditative sensations came back clearly this morning — felt Qi’s movement in my head and limbs (not inside my torso yet). I woke up a bit earlier that usual so I began to meditate; within 3 minutes I rolled back to 3 more hours of the needed sleep.
“I’m actually going to disagree with you on this. I consider it a want.”
😳⁉️ The sex drive and the pair-bonding drive are born biologically with everyone; one can survive without sex but can’t live very well, based on energy medicine. You know what happened with Catholic Churches around the world in the past decades and “scandals” within some temples. Total abstinence (including masturbation) is against one of human natures❗️
“You were the one who brought it up.”
I closed the topic with you, but Mila “pressured” me to stay on it ; then you (dis)agreed with both of us, so I have to conclude it in agreement and disagreement, settling a stone — a half-way suspended in the air, to a ground.
Do you like my Chinese “bitter-melon” feast of this evening? If I have all the ingredients/materials, I’d cook it immediately. I love to play with new dishes. Gosh, my appetite is back… I had Panang curry flounder with coconut milk this evening… 😝
Typo: Total celibacy (WITHOUT even masturbation) is against one of human natures❗️
Snow,
“Appealing to me means “looking objectively handsome /pleasant”.”
Oh, ok. That’s not really attraction to me.
” But he looked more relaxed than the first time two days before my surgery.”
You were less scary in the second session! (I’m kidding.)
“My lady, you really scan your feelings all the time, hun?”
Not really. I don’t feel it that often. If I do, I’m pleasantly surprised.
“I think in this regard, I’m much less emotional than many of limerents here; I rarely “strive” to feel this person or that one.”
I don’t really “strive” to feel them. I do or I don’t. Feeling it at all is rare. Feeling it strongly … very rare. Thus, it’s not something I worry about too much.
“I think men assess our side as well all the time in their head. ”
Most definitely. Probably more like … would I do her or not? And their standards are a lot lower than ours … I’ll leave it at that. 🙂
“which include even “negative glimmer” in some men and women… 😀”
Hmmm … a negative glimmer. They gross you out?
“In that sauna room, I witnessed my chic French professor with the chopped/chewed hair (boyish short) several times. You see, I got to observe the underneath of a superficially chic woman, who drew the attention of a half block of people (LO6 included). ”
I bet the short hair looked good on her. Some women can pull that off.
“She was very argumentative and opinionated like a typical French (📣 Excluding you, 🍨 !)”
I do have a little French in me, right? 🙂
“Perhaps you’ve read about what Sting does with his second wife, and why Ralph Fiennes had to divorce his wife, and why Audrey’s 2nd husband began cheating on her 9 months after their marriage….”
I just know Sting talked about tantric sex and being able to do it for hours. Which did not turn me on at all. I find him pretentious.
“But what are you going to do before you have a LTR? Dating around to hopefully hunt or stay at home to depressively whine?”
Currently, I’m not doing anything about it. I have a couple of irons in the fire with a side hustle. I’m working on that.
“Perhaps lost in his LarLarLar land with his SO in one arm, MFF in another…”
He wishes! 🙂
“Maybe I should subscribe AppleTV for a month. I’m in a mood for comedy and couldn’t help wanna tease nowadays. ”
I really liked the first season. She has a hot, stable husband and a goofy, fun BFF. What more does a woman need? 🙂
“If a man did not glimmer in the 1st 5 seconds after I causally spotted him, he’d lose his chance to the next life.”
They could be worried their SO would be into you. But in the series, it’s not an issue. Although her husband’s co-workers think they’re having an affair. They aren’t.
“I think Seth Myers is funny in his Late Night show. ”
I meant Seth Rogan. My mistake.
“😂 😂 😂, that’s too funny! I love double/triple meanings lines… I try to use multiple meanings words in my Rose lines 🏵️ ✍️ …”
The two of them go the house where his estranged, soon-to-be ex-wife lives to get some of his things and they are surprised to find her there and she tells them their friendship is strange, like two 13-year-old girls. I remember having friendships like that.
“By the way, my meditative sensations came back clearly this morning — felt Qi’s movement in my head and limbs (not inside my torso yet). I woke up a bit earlier that usual so I began to meditate; within 3 minutes I rolled back to 3 more hours of the needed sleep.”
That’s good.
“😳⁉️ The sex drive and the pair-bonding drive are born biologically with everyone; one can survive without sex but can’t live very well, based on energy medicine. ”
I didn’t say no masturbation. But one can be perfectly fine without sex and an LTR.
“I closed the topic with you, but Mila “pressured” me to stay on it ; ”
If you are going to broach topics, you have to be prepared for people to disagree with you.
“If I have all the ingredients/materials, I’d cook it immediately. I love to play with new dishes.”
I’ll be over in 5. 🙂
“Gosh, my appetite is back… I had Panang curry flounder with coconut milk this evening… 😝”
That sounds good. I won’t tell you what I ate. You’ll yell at me. It may have involved a drive-thru window. 🙂
Marcia,
”You were less scary in the second session! (I’m kidding.)”
In teaching profession, one has to bring out all E of MBTI traits, in order to motivate or inspire students’ learning, which often tired me out because I could not half-heartedly/indifferently do it. I’m often intrigued by thoughtful, I-introverted students who is actually a fast learner. E-extroverted students’ enthusiastic/quick learning is very pleasing, but they are not attractive personally to me.
I don’t really “strive” to feel them. I do or I don’t. Feeling it at all is rare. Feeling it strongly … very rare. Thus, it’s not something I worry about too much.”
Your rarity is every five years or so (told LaR); the frequency for me to feel really buzzed inside is measured by “dozen” — 0.5, 1… 2.5 dozen years. How many dozen years do we have in life?
“Most definitely. Probably more like … would I do her or not? And their standards are a lot lower than ours … I’ll leave it at that. 🙂”
Once I read (in a psychological article/book) that an average frequency of man thinking about sex is every 6 seconds. Their standards of attractive girls/women… 🙄 🤐
“Hmmm … a negative glimmer. They gross you out?”
Oh, yes! I think glimmering rate of men and women (their appealing rate with small “g”, not how much I am attracted with capital “G”) should be divided from g-10 ~~ g+10, our Glimmer from G -10~~G+10 Please remember this acronym for our future chats. 😊
“I bet the short hair looked good on her. Some women can pull that off.”
Yes, without makeup and her-own chopped short hair (above her ears), carefree but confident look, she still held the attention of a half block. She’s slim and only ate one meal a day (a half amount of one takeout order) for years; her snack after 1 hour of swimming was an orange or apple with a bottle of water. Based on her, she argued with all of her bosses, insisted on her principles and standards for teaching.
“She was very argumentative and opinionated like a typical French (📣 Excluding you, 🍨 !)”
I do have a little French in me, right? 🙂
I was shouting to Trifles, 🍨. I’m not sure how much of French you have, I need to 6-sense people. Silent and “subjective” words often mislead my imaginations.
“I just know Sting talked about tantric sex and being able to do it for hours. Which did not turn me on at all. I find him pretentious.”
At least he only does it with his wife, which I know for sure would crystallize their bonds. I like some of his songs, without knowing much of his personality, or any gossip about any celebrity. I know that Binoche never married and has a son and a daughter from two fathers; and have little ideas about Irons and Day-Lewis family stories.
“Currently, I’m not doing anything about it. I have a couple of irons in the fire with a side hustle. I’m working on that.”
That’s good. That’s what I called “the weapons” for dating, right? I’m too old or too old-fashioned for your modern dating.
“I really liked the first season. She has a hot, stable husband and a goofy, fun BFF. What more does a woman need? 🙂”
I found goofiness in men or women is a turnoff for me. I enjoy British sense of dry humor. I like BBC series the way more than American ones.
“They could be worried their SO would be into you. But in the series, it’s not an issue. Although her husband’s co-workers think they’re having an affair. They aren’t.”
The subjects of modern relationship sit-coms, like “Seinfeld”, “The office”, “Sex and City”, or romantic scandals/affairs related dramas cannot hold my interests and become tiresome to me… I prefer (re)watch fantasies like “Merlin” or “Camelot” or “The Lord of the Rings” (audio books), or “A Discovery of Witches”…, some Period Dramas, like “Bridgerton”, “Downton Abbey”, “Medici”… and documentaries on arts and artists across the history.
“I meant Seth Rogan. My mistake.”
I’ll pass the show, sorry. 😀
“The two of them go the house where his estranged, soon-to-be ex-wife lives to get some of his things and they are surprised to find her there and she tells them their friendship is strange, like two 13-year-old girls. I remember having friendships like that.”
Yes, I cherished those 10~12 year-old friendship with girls or boys. But once passing 13 years old, hormones began taking hold of one’s behaviors with or without proper awareness.
“I didn’t say no masturbation. But one can be perfectly fine without sex and an LTR.”
Myself is a living proof of your statement (14 or 17 years)…🙂
“If you are going to broach topics, you have to be prepared for people to disagree with you.”
Have you noticed that I can’t bear well any echoing of others’ and my own voice? Disagreement is fine and challenging my old/rigid mindsets, but moralistic attacks is so unappealing (neither you or Mila did it).
Mila did not disagree with me, but misunderstood what I said, which was not contradicting to her ideas/preferences. Sorry to say that both of you are not qualified to assess or (dis)agree with TS, because of your lack of the experiences and its physical or spiritual benefits. Your Ladyship, we can’t assess anything without first-hand, empirical tryouts, can we❓ 😉
“That sounds good. I won’t tell you what I ate. You’ll yell at me. It may have involved a drive-thru window. 🙂”
I won’t yell at you, that’s your choice/right. 😊 As a saving-money freak, I don’t eat out often except with visiting friends and my family and during travels. But I haven’t browsed fast-food chains like McDonald’s, Burger King, KFC, Dunkin’ Donuts, TGI Fridays, or local diners for more than two decades, with a couple of emergency exceptional or unavoidable invites. I usually go out for ethnic food.
I cook all the time, simple, healthy dish for myself, and elaborated ones for friends and the family. I cook ❄️’s patterned dishes without written recipes (they’re in my head), learn (by watching) and improvise dishes almost everyday. The same named-dish may taste different or is substituted by slightly-different ingredients the next time you taste it. Playing with food (exclude all Western desserts) is my biggest hands-on hobby.
I want to spend more time in reading, writing, and playing piano with my aged fingers — no arthritis yet ! 😆
“You know what happened with Catholic Churches around the world in the past decades and “scandals” within some temples. Total abstinence (including masturbation) is against one of human natures!”
Not just the Catholic churches—It seems to be in all of them in some form or another. Bloggers and podcasters and journalists have been exposing scandals all over the place for years.
Then in Protestant churches you have the Evangelical Purity Culture, where everything is restricted outside of marriage, including masturbation, and this is drummed into the heads of the teenagers. In the 90s they did their purity rings, purity balls, purity pledges, “courtship” where you don’t date and don’t even kiss before marriage, etc. And then the rates of kids doing that who went on to have sex outside of marriage, were very high!
Snow,
“In teaching profession, one has to bring out all E of MBTI traits”
Do you do most of your teaching over video? Not in person?
“Your rarity is every five years or so (told LaR); the frequency for me to feel really buzzed inside is measured by “dozen” — 0.5, 1… 2.5 dozen years.”
Not five years to experience any buzz at all. A level 9 or 10 buzz.
“How many dozen years do we have in life?”
And that’s why I said yes to LO-lite!
“Once I read (in a psychological article/book) that an average frequency of man thinking about sex is every 6 seconds. Their standards of attractive girls/women… 🙄 🤐”
It makes you realize how little it means if they find you appealing.
“Oh, yes! I think glimmering rate of men and women (their appealing rate with small “g”,”
It’s rare someone grosses me out.
“Please remember this acronym for our future chats. 😊”
I won’t. 🙂
“I like some of his songs, without knowing much of his personality, or any gossip about any celebrity.”
I like his music. He’s talented and was very attractive when he was younger. But he’s very arrogant.
“That’s good. That’s what I called “the weapons” for dating, right?”
I’m not sure what you mean. I wouldn’t call it having weapons. Just something else in my life I’m working on that has nothing to do with dating.
“I found goofiness in men or women is a turnoff for me.”
Really? I like it. In a friend. In the show, he’s the fun friend. They hang out with his male friends and have adventures. 🙂
“The subjects of modern relationship sit-coms, like “Seinfeld”, “The office”, “Sex and City”, or romantic scandals/affairs related dramas cannot hold my interests and become tiresome to me”
I’m not big on those two shows but there have been sitcoms I liked.
What I liked about Platonic was what was discussed in the review of the new season in The Guardian. The writer called the show a love story. A platonic love story between a man and a woman, which is rare. The writer said the romantic subplot wasn’t interesting! But the parts about the friendship were.
“… I prefer (re)watch fantasies like “Merlin” or “Camelot” or “The Lord of the Rings” (audio books), or “A Discovery of Witches”…, some Period Dramas, like “Bridgerton”, “Downton Abbey”, “Medici”… and documentaries on arts and artists across the history.”
I thought Bridgerton was cheesy and predictable. Although Rege-Jean Page is very hot. And I don’t like fantasy shows like LoR. But documentaries, yes.
“Yes, I cherished those 10~12 year-old friendship with girls or boys. But once passing 13 years old, hormones began taking hold of one’s behaviors with or without proper awareness.”
I meant they are really close. I’ve had close friendships like that, even as an adult. Although it’s been years.
“Mila did not disagree with me, but misunderstood what I said, which was not contradicting to her ideas/preferences. Sorry to say that both of you are not qualified to assess or (dis)agree with TS, because of your lack of the experiences and its physical or spiritual benefits.”
I’m going to assume this isn’t your intention, but this sounds condescending. You are writing to people who are largely living in the states or Western Europe. If you don’t think we’ll understand something, maybe it’s best not to bring it up.
” As a saving-money freak, I don’t eat out often except with visiting friends and my family and during travels. But I haven’t browsed fast-food chains like McDonald’s, Burger King, KFC, Dunkin’ Donuts”
It’s terrible for you. All kinds of chemicals added to get you addicted.
“Playing with food (exclude all Western desserts) is my biggest hands-on hobby.”
If I’m being “good,” I cook all my own food. It’s healthier and then I can control what’s in it and how much of ingredients like added fats. But I don’t enjoy cooking. I admire people like you who can throw something together and it tastes good. I don’t have that skill. 🙂
Edit:
I didn’t care for Sex in the City and Seinfeld.
I liked The Office, both the American and British versions.
Marcia,
“Do you do most of your teaching over video? Not in person?”
All in person. I hate to teach/instruct over video, because the both sides look at a screen, without direct eye contacts. I taught one semester during Covid and got almost physically sick due to instructing while sitting down. I need to walk around room, facilitating students’ learning.
“Not five years to experience any buzz at all. A level 9 or 10 buzz.”
The same here. In between there were many small buzzes.
“And that’s why I said yes to LO-lite!”
I totally understand you here! The concept of one’s short life came in my mind many times in my LE, but I predicted that pains would DEFINITELY follow (because ET had his own LO & SO), so I resisted the temptation through the end. I’m very proud of myself❗️
“It makes you realize how little it means if they find you appealing.”
Precisely! That’s I ran away from unwanted attention the most of time when I was younger.
“It’s rare someone grosses me out.”
Have you seen those homeless men and women appearing in subway or public parks? I know you probably drive all the time.
“I like his music. He’s talented and was very attractive when he was younger. But he’s very arrogant.”
In what ways he’s arrogant? How about Bowie? I think Sting is more handsome than Bowie, whose songs I listened much less. .
“I’m not sure what you mean. I wouldn’t call it having weapons. Just something else in my life I’m working on that has nothing to do with dating.”
I thought you were saying you’re preparing stuff for the next dating round, sorry my mistake! So are these things helping/fulfilling some aspects of your life?
“Really? I like it. In a friend. In the show, he’s the fun friend. They hang out with his male friends and have adventures. 🙂”
No, prior to that lifetime Longing was gone, I did not like goofiness either in men or women. I was very serious, sentimental, melancholy (perhaps) neurotic, and spiritual (not religious).
“I’m not big on those two shows but there have been sitcoms I liked.”
I also watched a couple episodes of “Friends”, “Big Bang”, Grey’s Anatomy” (except the last season), Grace and Frankie… then I got tired of them all, but NEVER BBC mini series based on Austen, Dickens, and other classical novels; I even rewatched them. Modern Sit-Com can be quite funny and satirical of the modern life which often appears tedious and meaningless; they made me laugh but did not inspire my learning or creativity.
“What I liked about Platonic was what was discussed in the review of the new season in The Guardian. The writer called the show a love story. A platonic love story between a man and a woman, which is rare. “
I always believed, thought and still think a platonic love could happen; it’s other 6 types of “Greek loves” mixed without that Eros. It’s probably love of two minds and hearts without sexual attraction.
“The writer said the romantic subplot wasn’t interesting! But the parts about the friendship were.”
That sounds interesting to me, now. But both leading actor and actress don’t appear attractive enough to me.
“I thought Bridgerton was cheesy and predictable. Although Rege-Jean Page is very hot. And I don’t like fantasy shows like LoR. But documentaries, yes.”
I like Period dramas and their costumes. It’s predictable, of course, due to its historical period. Scandals were casted out after all through social and financial eliminations. I know Rege-Jean Page is your type of “Professional”, but again not mine. Benedict is my type.
I like fantasies because there are simpler dualistic sides: good vs. evil, and I like magics that help good sides win. It’s gratifying, because our realistic world is so imperfect; it is an escape from the reality.
“I meant they are really close. I’ve had close friendships like that, even as an adult. Although it’s been years.”
We went over this before. Our definitions of close friendship have slight different meanings. You like deep chitchats and socializing buddies; I want mutual, inspirational “camaraderies” in mentalities and creativities; I’m not sociable but a lone-wolf with few trustworthy friends. I’d love to have your kind of close friendship, but can’t see its plausibility around me.
“I’m going to assume this isn’t your intention, but this sounds condescending. “
No, It was not and would never be my intention❗️ I thought it’s the other way around. You sounded judging and dismissive of something you hardly know, which I learned and practiced entirely in this country, although it’s originated in the East. (As I said before I had never heard of it until I was 36, after my divorce).
“You are writing to people who are largely living in the states or Western Europe. If you don’t think we’ll understand something, maybe it’s best not to bring it up.”
I think you (collective) can understand, but you do NOT want to. I brought it up hoping it might introduce some beneficial physical and spiritual practices into your awareness or personal living, which could help reduce your (collective) frequent anxiety, stress, discontentment, complaints, grumpiness, etc, which I know too well since I was in your boat before.
Why would I’ve bothered spending a lot of time writing out in details about Vipassana meditation retreat and encourage you to try one❓ Was it for my own sake?
”It’s terrible for you. All kinds of chemicals added to get you addicted.”
That’s why I just considered/envision them as “poisons /drugs”, which then made it very easy to resist them. Besides, they all taste flavorless 🙄 compared to my daily fresh cooking.
“If I’m being “good,” I cook all my own food. It’s healthier and then I can control what’s in it and how much of ingredients like added fats. “
Exactly!
“ But I don’t enjoy cooking. I admire people like you who can throw something together and it tastes good. I don’t have that skill. 🙂”
You don’t enjoy it perhaps because no one in your family enjoyed cooking and bothered spending time to patiently teach you? My Grandpa and Dad were gourmet food lovers and great home-cooking chefs, so they made sure to pass down their personal cooking skills. 😀
Cooking is not that hard. If you live close by, I’d teach you myself. It’s creative, and the “artistic” outcome is eatable! 💗
Now, tell me what sorts of things outside of your work you ARE passionate about (besides relating people) and enjoy doing❓
🦇 📕,
“Not just the Catholic churches—It seems to be in all of them in some form or another. Bloggers and podcasters and journalists have been exposing scandals all over the place for years.”
Imposing such an extremely harsh rule against human fundamental nature, what do you think those clergymen would do? — succumb to biological laws. Oppression never brings any form of liberation of souls or spirits, but indirectly creates more “evil” deeds to those victims (usually boys) who afterwards suffer most for years 😡
As scientific/biological laws have been discovered so much more than two thousand years ago, I think churches could reform and abandon their celibacy rules.
“Then in Protestant churches you have the Evangelical Purity Culture, where everything is restricted outside of marriage, including masturbation, and this is drummed into the heads of the teenagers. “
Communism (or “1984) is a lot like Evangelical Purity Culture; but its morality is applied not only to the party members, but everyone in the society. The brainwash starts at one’s daycare. In the past, breaking such a morality rules could cost any person’s job or his/her public criticism /humiliation /condemnation (rarely in remote villages, female adulterer could be stoned into a river). Today extra marital affairs can pull high-rank officials down. Yet, the rate of mistresses and “illegitimate” kids are increasing since the country’s economic reform 45 years ago.
“In the 90s they did their purity rings, purity balls, purity pledges, “courtship” where you don’t date and don’t even kiss before marriage, etc. And then the rates of kids doing that who went on to have sex outside of marriage, were very high!”
I can totally imagine that! Perhaps in every culture, forbidden fruits are more tasty? Rebellion is one of innate human natures?
Is Evangelical Purity culture still strong/popular in the US? With so many human rights and scientific knowledge, why would some people willingly join such a church and repress their most important humanity?
Snow,
“I hate to teach/instruct over video, because the both sides look at a screen, without direct eye contacts. I taught one semester during Covid and got almost physically sick due to instructing while sitting down. I need to walk around room, facilitating students’ learning.”
I think it would have been terrible to have to teach during covid. Particularly with young children, and all you see is a bunch of squares on your screen as the teacher, and you’re struggling to keep their attention.
” In between there were many small buzzes.”
Yes, like that guy at the meetup the other day. A small buzz.
“I totally understand you here! The concept of one’s short life came in my mind many times in my LE”
I think it’s been … 20 years ? … since I’ve gotten my hands on someone I was that into. If I have to wait another 20 years … you get where I’m going with this.
[“It makes you realize how little it means if they find you appealing.”]
“Precisely! That’s I ran away from unwanted attention the most of time when I was younger.”
It does make me wonder about these LOs I’ve had. Is their attention to me that indiscriminate? Yuck.
“Have you seen those homeless men and women appearing in subway or public parks? I know you probably drive all the time.”
They don’t gross me out. More like make me feel I should be doing more. If I have some cash (I don’t often carry cash), I will give it to them, but what are a few dollars going to buy?
“In what ways he’s arrogant?”
He’s very impressed with himself.
“How about Bowie? I think Sting is more handsome than Bowie, whose songs I listened much less. ”
I think they are both handsome. But they both fit into the category of guys I referred to earlier … I can appreciate their attractiveness, but I’m not looking at either and thinking: Whoa. But objectively … I can see they’re both handsome. I like Sting’s music better.
“So are these things helping/fulfilling some aspects of your life?”
Yes. I’m trying to plot my way out of my job.
“No, prior to that lifetime Longing was gone, I did not like goofiness either in men or women.”
I do. And sometimes I like big, extroverted personalities that draw me out.
“I also watched a couple episodes of “Friends”, “Big Bang”, Grey’s Anatomy” (except the last season), Grace and Frankie… then I got tired of them all”
I don’t like any of those shows except Grace and Frankie, which I agree got tiresome in the later seasons. But I like Jane Fonda and Lilly Tomlin and I like that older women had the leads in the show and were the most interesting characters.
“I always believed, thought and still think a platonic love could happen … It’s probably love of two minds and hearts without sexual attraction.”
Yes, definitely.
” But both leading actor and actress don’t appear attractive enough to me.”
Rose Byrne is gorgeous.
“I like Period dramas and their costumes. It’s predictable, of course, due to its historical period. ”
I just thought Bridgerton was like 5 other shows I’d already seen that were better. It was derivative and generic.
” I know Rege-Jean Page is your type of “Professional”, but again not mine.”
I just fast forwarded until he was on! I never watched the seasons he wasn’t in.
“Benedict is my type.”
Benedict Cumberbatch? ! Oh, no, no. No, no. 🙂
“I like fantasies because there are simpler dualistic sides: good vs. evil, and I like magics that help good sides win. ”
Exactly. They feel like children’s fables to me. I don’t hate them. They’re just not something I want to invest time into.
“I’d love to have your kind of close friendship, but can’t see its plausibility around me.”
I can’t see it ever happening again. That new friend disappointed me. She’s just not emotionally supportive at all. I think she just wants someone to hang out with/socialize with. I’m kind of baffled by people like this. We have a decent amount of communication, but there’s just not much to it.
“I thought it’s the other way around. You sounded judging and dismissive of something you hardly know”
You sometimes describe things with acronyms, symbols and phrases that are hard to understand and/or keep track of.
“I think you (collective) can understand, but you do NOT want to.”
See above.
“I brought it up hoping it might introduce some beneficial physical and spiritual practices into your awareness or personal living, which could help reduce your (collective) frequent anxiety, stress, discontentment, complaints, grumpiness, etc, which I know too well since I was in your boat before.”
Just because I bring something up doesn’t mean I’m complaining or that I’m stressed about it. Yes, there are things I’m stressed about, but not having an SO and access to sex aren’t two of them. I actually do have access to sex, just not sex I want. Now that does distress me. 🙂
“Why would I’ve bothered spending a lot of time writing out in details about Vipassana meditation retreat and encourage you to try one❓ Was it for my own sake?”
And I appreciated that.
“That’s why I just considered/envision them as “poisons /drugs”, which then made it very easy to resist them. Besides, they all taste flavorless 🙄 compared to my daily fresh cooking.”
You’re right. They do have kind of a bland taste.
“You don’t enjoy it perhaps because no one in your family enjoyed cooking and bothered spending time to patiently teach you?”
No, they didn’t, but it’s not something I want to spend a lot of time on.
“It’s creative, and the “artistic” outcome is eatable! 💗”
It’s definitely a skill/talent.
“Now, tell me what sorts of things outside of your work you ARE passionate about (besides relating people) and enjoy doing❓”
I can’t really get too specific on here.
@Snow
Trying to get the Catholic church to change anything is almost impossible—same with Orthodoxy. It is, in fact, why many people go to stricter churches even now: They want religion, and they want it to be unchangeable. A lot of young people are coming into the traditional churches lately looking for just that.
The Purity Culture of the 90s has gone into disfavor: A lot of people raised in it have been reporting what it did to their psyches, health problems, still unmarried and alone well into their 30s, etc. One of the people who wrote a book on courtship in the 90s, Joshua Harris, has since apologized and even left Christianity entirely, from what I recall. But a lot of the ethics are still in place.
🦇 📕,
“Trying to get the Catholic church to change anything is almost impossible—same with Orthodoxy. It is, in fact, why many people go to stricter churches even now: They want religion, and they want it to be unchangeable. A lot of young people are coming into the traditional churches lately looking for just that.”
My guess for the increase is that with cell-phone culture spreading, young people — “Snowflake generation”, is more prone to taking offense and less resilient than the previous generation. So some of them seek strong organizations, that have strong, fixed ethics/values, to be mentally/spiritually supported. Standing alone is “weak” and “isolated”, to be a part of giant “ideological machine” makes one feel “stronger” and more connected by leaning each other on their fellows. “If something goes wrong, one doesn’t have to take responsibilities; he can blame on God.” — a secretary to a Bishop in NYC.
“The Purity Culture of the 90s has gone into disfavor: A lot of people raised in it have been reporting what it did to their psyches, health problems, still unmarried and alone well into their 30s, etc. One of the people who wrote a book on courtship in the 90s, Joshua Harris, has since apologized and even left Christianity entirely, from what I recall. But a lot of the ethics are still in place.”
I’m not surprised to hear this at all! I know the hard journey of reversing the previous brainwash….
You may very well be right about that!
Marcia,
“I think it would have been terrible to have to teach during covid. Particularly with young children, and all you see is a bunch of squares on your screen as the teacher, and you’re struggling to keep their attention. “
I did not teach any K-8 class during the covid semester, only college students with their faces sideways facing their screen, and their attention was all over the places. I’ve been teaching in HE for the past 10 years.
“I think it’s been … 20 years ? … since I’ve gotten my hands on someone I was that into. If I have to wait another 20 years … you get where I’m going with this. “
I think the word “wait” shows a “longing”in this matter. I rarely “waited” for anyone to suddenly drop from the sky, but merely tried my best to take care of my responsibilities…Then, things just occurred and take their own course.
“It does make me wonder about these LOs I’ve had. Is their attention to me that indiscriminate? Yuck. “
Since you have a very attractive physical package, I’d seriously question their attention.
“They don’t gross me out. More like make me feel I should be doing more. If I have some cash (I don’t often carry cash), I will give it to them, but what are a few dollars going to buy? “
They take 1% of population in my town, which is about 10,000. Some of them literally shit on subway platforms and sitting benches (witnessed and almost stepped on one as the door opened..). If one homeless doze off in a subway car, a half of it would be empty due to its horrible smell and unsanitary air. In the streets in the evening, an aggressive female suddenly landed in front of me (1-2 feet distance) loudly demanding money. If I refused her, I was sure she’d punch me (much smaller than her)
Once I saw a young man came out of Pizza Hut and gave this homeless man a slice of fresh pizza, the latter thanked him but trashed the pizza into a nearby trash can as soon as the young man walked away. The majority of them in my town beg money for drinks and illegal drugs. I always have snacks with me, if they beg, I’d ask them whether they want some food. Most of them took my banana, bagged nuts, or a boiled egg.
Giving homeless money encourages laziness, based on Thai people. So in Bangkok, they give human beggars a menial labor/work and pay them. At the same time, street dogs 🐶 in Bangkok are so well fed (often by people shared with their own food) — fat, shining and get free monthly rabies and birth control shots from the government).
Once a curious lawyer did a “research”: put on a makeup and pretended to be a “beggar” in the subway of my town. At the end of the day, he made over $400 (the story was in NYT)! That tells you why some people just live on begging, even with clean or decent clothes. There are governmental shelters and food for them; but some just prefer to beg in public.
“He’s very impressed with himself. “
Yes, arrogant and showy singers are annoying.
“I think they are both handsome. But they both fit into the category of guys I referred to earlier … I can appreciate their attractiveness, but I’m not looking at either and thinking: Whoa. But objectively … I can see they’re both handsome. I like Sting’s music better. “
Let’s use my g and G rating system here: Sting and Bowie have g8 & g7 (glimmering level), but I have G2 and G1 (my Glimmer level) for them — g8/G2 and g7/G1. Dimash has g10, and I G4 for him — g10/G4. They’re not my type, despite their attractive appearance or great singing talents. I 💕 most Dimash’s voice, the only one in the world — covering 6 octaves.
“So are these things helping/fulfilling some aspects of your life?” “Yes. I’m trying to plot my way out of my job. “
That would be the best, most worthy Plot! — wisely Selfish❗️ 👏 Let me know your good news!
““I do. And sometimes I like big, extroverted personalities that draw me out. “
When that Longing was (sub)consciously nagging me most of my waking hours, I could not appreciate and enjoy even my Dad’s goofiness and extroverted showoff! I tended to be pensive and sentimental. My handsome, triathlon Parisian lover’s goofiness in his friend’s birthday party made me decide not to move to France, despite he’s a fiction writer with a PhD in philosophy (he’s also 18-yrs-old-girl fetish and got depressed often, which dragged me down, too)
“I don’t like any of those shows except Grace and Frankie, which I agree got tiresome in the later seasons. But I like Jane Fonda and Lilly Tomlin and I like that older women had the leads in the show and were the most interesting characters. “
I like a lot both Jane Fonda and Lilly Tomlin. But the dating stories in Grace and Frankie get tiresome later. Humanity in relationship seems to be STUCK, merry-go-round, rarely evolves! Where are true positive/progressive “rebels” in this arena⁉️ 🤨
[“I always believed, thought and still think a platonic love could happen … It’s probably love of two minds and hearts without sexual attraction.”] “Yes, definitely.”
Literature has been taking about this “soulmates” for a couple of thansand years, I wonder how they were/are made❓ What happens to people who do NOT even believe in souls❓🧐 I definitely do not believe in “Twin Flame” theory. Relationship of any kind need efforts and work of both sides, solid actions produce effects much more than inaccurate words and forever changing or evasive emotions..
“Rose Byrne is gorgeous. “
Just googled her again — g7 (to me). Some feminine elegance, sophistication, refinement are missing in her.
[” I know Rege-Jean Page is your type of “Professional”, but again not mine.”] “I just fast forwarded until he was on! I never watched the seasons he wasn’t in. “
To me, he’s a “wild, savage” kind. To me, he’s g2, me G0 — g2/G0.
“Benedict Cumberbatch? ! Oh, no, no. No, no. “
No, no, no no to Cumberbatch (too much of brain)! I meant Benedict Bridgerton” played by Luke Thompson. He’s between a straight and gay man in his role.
“Exactly. They feel like children’s fables to me. I don’t hate them. They’re just not something I want to invest time into.”
I’m still a big kid in my core, sometimes a helpless idealist — not harming anyone 🫣 … Fantasies involve grand missions, quests, and shared goals for good people / camaraderie to pursue and achieve. By comparison, modern living is a kind of mediocre, no shared goals/quest/actions, everyone goes his/her ways and changes/evolves, and many pursue instant material or sensory gratifications as if tomorrow does not exist or indulgence has consequence. Many live for paychecks, not even try to make their own jobs or life meaningful or more interesting (to themselves).
As a psychologist and humanist, Carl Jung talked a lot about story telling/writing as a therapeutic means to treat his patients . Children across all cultures/tribes throughout centuries love (bedtime/bathtime/daytime) storytelling, through which collective consciousness and good vs. evil passed down from generation to generation. As I told you, when I could not sleep or was in pain, Dad’s storytelling or good audiobooks soothed/eased my pains or put me back to sleep with pains (right after the surgery).
IMP, those grownup who still like fantasies (not all the time, of course) still have innocence/ideals left inside them, instead of all practical, rational, ambitious or egotistical stuff.
“I can’t see it ever happening again. That new friend disappointed me. She’s just not emotionally supportive at all. I think she just wants someone to hang out with/socialize with. I’m kind of baffled by people like this. We have a decent amount of communication, but there’s just not much to it. “
I get easily bored with chitchat hanging out or socializing, except occasionally during holiday or seasonal reunion. I prefer to accompany myself in the past 2 decades (without not much free time) with books, films, and a lit bit hobbies.
“You sometimes describe things with acronyms, symbols and phrases that are hard to understand and/or keep track of. “
That’s true. I tried to save some repetitious words, in case my passages sounded verbose 🤭. Acronyms can be very useful in all sorts of writings if you get a hang of them.
“Just because I bring something up doesn’t mean I’m complaining or that I’m stressed about it. “
Here is a place where either my ESL limited my understandings, or words mean different things/notions or varied degrees to different ears. Sometimes I sensed serious stresses/indirect complaints between lines where there was not that much. Sometimes, I thought my own words were mild and straightforward, but they sounded harsh, arrogant, or even offensive in your (collective) native speakers’ ears.
I once said to LaR here that I was trying to learn his diplomatic/peace-making ways of speaking… But sometimes, even you couldn’t understand his verbose sentences 🙄 ! Our old “verbosity” Master at least was very logical and clear about his intended meanings in his chanting style… 😀
“Yes, there are things I’m stressed about, but not having an SO and access to sex aren’t two of them. I actually do have access to sex, just not sex I want. Now that does distress me. “
😮 wow! I’m happy for you! An access to sex as a product? 😉 Is that some kind of gigolo 🤭— just kidding. I grew up under communist system that is similar to Evangelical Purity; sex without mental and emotional attachment was unthinkable/unfathomable.
I had such a hard time to get on dating apps two decades ago, that even my Dad was pushing me to learn about it and get used to it. My experiences of one/two-nighter was 95% horrible, except I met that French lover (g7/G3), Russian lover (g4/G2) and LO5 (g8/G5) – Your ladyship, you’ll have to deal with my gs/Gs and math system 😂 .
“No, they didn’t, but it’s not something I want to spend a lot of time on.”
Once you get used to it, cooking doesn’t take that much of time. For myself, a meal from scratch takes from 15-30 minutes, could be faster than getting your drive-through order.
[“Now, tell me what sorts of things outside of your work you ARE passionate about (besides relating people) and enjoy doing”] “I can’t really get too specific on here.”
That’s totally fine! 🫂 No need to tell anything that you don’t want or feel uncomfortable to tell here.
This afternoon, I was just assigned with another new male, heritage student (in his 40s) — g2/G0. 😆 Gee, see what I’ve learned MOST from LwL — GLIMMER with its grading scales…. 😂
DrL will be very pleased with my LwL practices — no need to run away from a Glimmer, just give it a grade and analyze it until it dies naturally… 🤣 (now my internal incisions are churning 😇)
Typo: missing “no” again!
“as if tomorrow does not exist or indulgence has NO consequence.”
A very short video — Eather Parel on The New York Times “Mankeeping” article
https://youtube.com/shorts/kCNzDa-Q44A?si=kv5qPPm_yInjA9qq
Should Your Partner Really Be Your Best Friend?
Expecting a spouse to be both friend and lover is a relatively new concept. Some think it’s asking too much.
By Catherine Pearson
Feb. 7, 2025 (NY Times)
Stephanie Lopez is effusive about her husband’s good qualities. He is a man of character, kindness and integrity, she said. He is a loving father and treats her with respect.
But is he her best friend?
“No!” said Ms. Lopez, who is 43 and lives on Hawaii’s Big Island.
“I don’t have sex with my friends,” she explained. “I don’t pay bills with my friends. And I guarantee you, if I did, it would change the whole dynamic of the relationship.”
The belief that your partner should be your best friend pops up everywhere, whether on social media or in the greeting card aisle. It’s not unusual to seek a romantic partner who fulfills more than the role of spouse, co-parent or lover, said Alexandra Solomon, a clinical psychologist and host of the “Reimagining Love” podcast.
“We want somebody who sees us and gets us,” Dr. Solomon said. “Well, that’s the same darn thing we want in our friendships. We really are craving that same sense of affinity and admiration.”
But is it unreasonable to expect your bedmate to be your best friend, or is it the highest form of intimacy?
A Spouse’s Ever-Changing Role
Jennifer Santiago, 42, and her husband are best friends.
The couple, who began dating in high school, have broken up briefly over the years, taking time apart to get to know themselves and what they want out of life. But their underlying friendship brought them back together every time, said Ms. Santiago, who lives in Orlando.
“There was always an empty void when we took a break,” she said. They realized: “Wow, we really, truly do everything together!”
Historically, that is a relatively new approach to romantic relationships, said Eli J. Finkel, a social psychologist and the author of “The All-Or-Nothing Marriage: How the Best Marriages Work.”
Until the mid-1800s, marriage in the United States mostly revolved around ensuring partners had their basic needs (like food and shelter) met — what Dr. Finkel calls the “pragmatic era.” Between 1850 and 1965, marriage entered the “love-based era” — in which the primary relationship functions were about love and companionship, he said. Since then, we have been in the “self-expressive” era — in which marriage is about not only love, but also personal growth.
“The marital relationship has taken on more and more responsibility for our social and psychological needs,” Dr. Finkel said.
How to Set Realistic Expectations
Is it a good or bad thing that many people now expect their romantic relationships to fulfill so many roles in their lives? Ultimately, that depends on “whether your relationship can deliver,” said Dr. Finkel, who is also a co-host of the “Love Factually” podcast.
He feels “delighted” for people who say they want their romantic partners to also be their best friends. But he suggests they consider: Are there other expectations they can let go of? For instance, he said, it is a lot to expect your partner to be the co-chief executive of the household, to split child care, to be your exclusive sexual companion and to be your best friend.
“I don’t want to sound like a scold,” Dr. Finkel said. “I just want people to be aware that every additional expectation that you’re throwing on top of your relationship comes with opportunity for enhanced closeness — and it comes with additional risk that the relationship will buckle under the weight of those expectations.”
He suggested releasing some of that pressure. Can you lean on other friends for emotional support? Are you OK being emotionally close to your partner, but not necessarily having the spiciest intimate life together?
Dr. Solomon believes that friendship, particularly best friendship, is not a requisite for long-term intimacy. But it doesn’t hurt either, she said.
Liking your partner — which she described as admiring them, finding them funny, caring about their worldview, and having fun simply being together — can “cushion” the other relationship challenges a couple might face, she said.
But Dr. Solomon admitted that while she adores her husband of 26 years, he is not her best friend. “My best friend’s name is Ali, and she lives in Seattle,” she said. “She’s been in that spot since we were 10 years old.”
Ultimately, maintaining a tight romantic bond may come down to managing expectations and clearly discussing them, said Adam Fisher, president of the American Psychological Association’s division for couple and family psychology.
Dr. Fisher had a mentor who described marriage and relationships as best friendship plus sex. While he thinks that is one “very viable” approach to a relationship, he said, it is by no means the only one.
“Couples need some kind of ‘glue’ — commitment, shared values, sex, finances — something,” he said, but it doesn’t need to be friendship.
Ms. Lopez is opting out of the bedmate-as-BFF paradigm.
“I think we put so many expectations and responsibilities on our partners,” she said. “I’m not here to be everything and all things to you.”
Snow,
“I did not teach any K-8 class during the covid semester, only college students with their faces sideways facing their screen, and their attention was all over the places. I’ve been teaching in HE for the past 10 years.”
I know you teach college students. I was just relaying my thoughts on teaching young kids. Because they would require discipline. But teaching during covid would be hard for any age group. What is HE? Acronyms, my precious! I don’t know what they means.
“I think the word “wait” shows a “longing” in this matter.”
I’m simply saying I may not get another in my lifetime. The Universe is not kind in doling those kinds of situations out AND lining up all the factors that have to be lined up. It likes to torture you by giving you PART of the factors!
“Since you have a very attractive physical package, I’d seriously question their attention.”
I want them to like the package. I just want them to like more than the package.
“The majority of them in my town beg money for drinks and illegal drugs. ”
If I hand money to someone, it’s up to them how they spend it. It’s none of my business. I don’t give people gifts, for example, and then tell them what to do with the gifts.
“I always have snacks with me, if they beg, I’d ask them whether they want some food. Most of them took my banana, bagged nuts, or a boiled egg.”
Someone asked me to buy them a soda the other day. I was walking into a convenient store. That was fine.
“Giving homeless money encourages laziness, based on Thai people. ”
I highly doubt anyone is living that way because they want to.
“So in Bangkok, they give human beggars a menial labor/work and pay them.”
I have had people offer to work for money. I just don’t really have any work for them to do.
” There are governmental shelters and food for them; but some just prefer to beg in public.”
They aren’t enough here. We have villages of homeless people.
“Dimash has g10, and I G4 for him”
I’m surprised you don’t have a higher personal glimmer number for Dimash … as much as you’ve talked about him. 🙂
“That would be the best, most worthy Plot! — wisely Selfish❗️ 👏 Let me know your good news!”
I will when I get the news. 🙂
” I could not appreciate and enjoy even my Dad’s goofiness and extroverted showoff!”
He sounds fun to me. When was the last time you had fun? Balls-to-the-walls fun. Not a “pleasant” time. Not a “nice” time. But FUN. It’s not common as we get older.
“My handsome, triathlon Parisian lover’s goofiness in his friend’s birthday party made me decide not to move to France, despite he’s a fiction writer with a PhD in philosophy (he’s also 18-yrs-old-girl fetish and got depressed often, which dragged me down, too)”
The young girl fetish would have killed it for me. Completely. It would have grossed me out. I would have lost respect for him. I’m assuming he was at least in his 30s ?
“I like a lot both Jane Fonda and Lilly Tomlin. But the dating stories in Grace and Frankie get tiresome later. ”
I agree. And the stories about their daughters/children got tiresome.
“Where are true positive/progressive “rebels” in this arena⁉️ 🤨”
The rebels are you and me! 🙂
“Literature has been taking about this “soulmates” for a couple of thousand years, I wonder how they were/are made❓ What happens to people who do NOT even believe in souls❓”
I don’t believe in souls, but I do believe in meeting people and having a strong connection. It doesn’t have to be romantic. And, no, you can’t “effort” your way into a connection like that. The effort would just keep the connection strong. The connection doesn’t come from the effort. Sometimes you meet people and you click.
“Some feminine elegance, sophistication, refinement are missing in her.”
What does that have to do with watching a comedy series?
“To me, he’s a “wild, savage” kind.”
Exactly. Giddy up. 🙂 Sorry. I’m in a silly mood. If you’re going to be alone with someone in a room, you want a little bit of that energy coming from them.
“No, no, no no to Cumberbatch (too much of brain)!”
He’s a very good actor but not sexy to me. Although he has tons of female fans. They’re called Cumberbitches! 🙂
” I meant Benedict Bridgerton” played by Luke Thompson. He’s between a straight and gay man in his role.”
He’s cute but he has no heat.
“I’m still a big kid in my core, sometimes a helpless idealist — not harming anyone 🫣”
I think the stories are too simplistic. And the characters seem silly to me. Flying dragons, etc.
“By comparison, modern living is a kind of mediocre, no shared goals/quest/actions, everyone goes his/her ways and changes/evolves, and many pursue instant material or sensory gratifications as if tomorrow does not exist or indulgence has consequence. ”
That’s definitely a Western mindset, yes.
” As I told you, when I could not sleep or was in pain, Dad’s storytelling or good audiobooks soothed/eased my pains or put me back to sleep with pains (right after the surgery).”
I mean, if they helped you.
I just find them … well, juvenile. I realize I’m in the minority. The fantasy genre is very popular.
“still have innocence/ideals left inside them, instead of all practical, rational, ambitious or egotistical stuff.”
I don’t like the fantasy genre, and I can assure you I am far from overly practical and rational. 🙂
“I get easily bored with chitchat hanging out or socializing”
Maybe I’m not being fair. We do share things about our lives that are beyond chitchat. And she does have a generosity of spirit. She’s just noticed I don’t seem like myself lately and has yet to ask me why or offer to talk about it. Which I think is strange.
“That’s true. I tried to save some repetitious words, in case my passages sounded verbose 🤭.”
Sometimes it takes a few messages back and forth to parse out the symbols and acronyms. So I may have dismissed your discussion of self-sex (for lack of a better description) because I didn’t have the patience to go back and forth about it that day. Sorry if I got persnickety.
“Here is a place where either my ESL limited my understandings, or words mean different things/notions or varied degrees to different ears.”
This is true in general for all posters about the limitations of a blog as a means of communication. Tone is sometimes hard to decipher.
“I once said to LaR here that I was trying to learn his diplomatic/peace-making ways of speaking… But sometimes, even you couldn’t understand his verbose sentences 🙄 ! ”
Oh, he’s a total diplomat. More like a politician. SOOO MANYY WORDS! And what was actually said? 🙂 (I’m KIND of teasing. :))
“Our old “verbosity” Master at least was very logical and clear about his intended meanings in his chanting style… 😀”
Chanting style?
“😮 wow! I’m happy for you! An access to sex as a product? 😉”
Well, I’m a woman and I’m breathing. Thus, I have access to sex. 🙂
“Is that some kind of gigolo 🤭— just kidding.”
I’m sure as hell not paying for it! 🙂 No, my one-nighter/hook up reappeared. I’m good. No need to repeat that. 🙂
“sex without mental and emotional attachment was unthinkable/unfathomable.”
Good luck finding it with mental and emotional attachment. 🙂
“My experiences of one/two-nighter was 95% horrible .”
Me, too.
“Once you get used to it, cooking doesn’t take that much of time. For myself, a meal from scratch takes from 15-30 minutes, could be faster than getting your drive-through order.”
That’s not bad in terms of time. But what if the guy at the drive-thru window is cute? Years ago, I used to go through this one drive-thru and the fast-food worker who took my order over the intercom had a GREAT speaking voice. I even told him that when I pulled around to pay. 🙂
“That’s totally fine! 🫂 No need to tell anything that you don’t want or feel uncomfortable to tell here.”
It’s just that I’ve said enough on here about myself; the hobbies are giving too much away. 🙂
“This afternoon, I was just assigned with another new male, heritage student (in his 40s) — g2/G0. 😆 Gee, see what I’ve learned MOST from LwL — GLIMMER with its grading scales…. 😂”
So the world would see his glimmer as a 2 and you see it as zero ?
“DrL will be very pleased with my LwL practices — no need to run away from a Glimmer, just give it a grade and analyze it until it dies naturally… 🤣”
If the glimmer is only a 2 … that’s not even enough to motivate me to get up from my chair to cross the room and cruise him. 🙂
” (now my internal incisions are churning 😇)”
How are you feeling? Are you supposed to get annual or semi-annual radiology tests to monitor your health?
Marcia,
“I know you teach college students. I was just relaying my thoughts on teaching young kids. Because they would require discipline. But teaching during covid would be hard for any age group. What is HE? Acronyms, my precious! I don’t know what they means.”
For a weekend heritage school, I work with a bunch of 2-4th graders, 8-10 students in a class. They’re very cute. HE stands for Higher Education. HS — High School, etc. I taught in HS 9-12, which didn’t enjoy it, and quit. I had quit other unionized job even before landing a new one; just could not tolerate mediocrity and boredom.
“I’m simply saying I may not get another in my lifetime. The Universe is not kind in doling those kinds of situations out AND lining up all the factors that have to be lined up. It likes to torture you by giving you PART of the factors! “
That might be a fact for any of us here! That’s why COO people are fatalistic in romance/relationship, which is largely Fated. So we don’t wait around, just getting on with our living, purposeful or meaningless or anything in between. We don’t see the fate you talked here as “torture”, but a default of life. We don’t know who gets a part or a whole deal or none of “the factors”. So what? C’est la vie❗️— Stoic.
“I want them to like the package. I just want them to like more than the package. “
That’s catch 22. If you want someone to value your inside more, you’ll have to tone down your physical package. Otherwise, their eyes would focus on the surface most likely. In DrL’s views, we need to be more authentic, without “shining armors.” If someone adores you without your physical package, you’d feel like God himself/herself without your aged Longing…
“If I hand money to someone, it’s up to them how they spend it. It’s none of my business. I don’t give people gifts, for example, and then tell them what to do with the gifts. “
Unlike specific gifts, money is a big tool that can be used to do both good and evil. It IS my business to hand money for good causes, I’m very moralistic on this‼️ I’m not going to give money for others’ gambling, to terrorists to make bombs, to people who buy drugs and alcohol to harm themselves. Your kind of “respecting” human rights and discriminative charity, which could cause harms in recipient themselves or in others, IMO, is indirectly irresponsible.
That narc gf once wanted to borrow money for buying a single hot stock, I just immediately refused her on her face! 😠 But I offered money to my French professor who badly needed cash for her new rental apt. deposit. It took a long time for her to return it, which was totally fine.
“Someone asked me to buy them a soda the other day. I was walking into a convenient store. That was fine. “
That’s genuinely kind of you❗️
“I highly doubt anyone is living that way because they want to.”
The only original/innate human “sin” some religions/philosophies have agreed upon is LAZINESS. We are born with it. Watch what kids would do if parents/caregivers did everything for them. Even yourself said that you’d not work if you don’t have to (as a billionaire). I would still want to do my passionated work even if I don’t have to.
There was this young, artsy-looking, causally but well dressed white woman (early 30s) stopped me once asking for $20. I asked her why she did not try to find some work. She said she’s an artist, just moved in the neighborhood, and needed support. I said I have no cash (nowadays everyone uses credit card). She said she could go to the grocery store to use my credit card to buy her a bag of food. I said, NO to her pretty face.
Later in the next few months, I saw her several times walking around my block stopping other people nicely “begging”. I haven’t see her since last year (my neighborhood isn’t that cheap, full of ivy-league college crowds). I dislike to give charity to able people, except those who miss limbs or look truly sick, or performing artists in the subway.
“I have had people offer to work for money. I just don’t really have any work for them to do. “
It takes a whole village to support a cause. In my block there used to be some decently dressed Latino men lined up against a wall. So people in my entire neighborhood could hire them for handy work by hours. Nowadays under Trump, they have all disappeared.
”They aren’t enough here. We have villages of homeless people. “
NYC and LA have a large facility for homeless people with bed, food, and hygiene facility. My old musician friend’s son (my age) went in a shelter in LA for a year after losing his job and wanted to get first-hand experience. All his valuables were stolen and he was forced back to his parents’ home, doing nothing but feeling depressed constantly.
“Dimash has g10, and I G4 for him” “I’m surprised you don’t have a higher personal glimmer number for Dimash … as much as you’ve talked about him. “
Dimash is brilliant in his singing but has little tough life experiences by growing up in a strictly music-training family/academia, and then became a celebrity at age of 21. He looks kind, humble, sweet, serious, spirited, passionate, compassionate, and “backboned” against the Western establishment. 👍 I can’t find a flaw just based on all the superficial knowledge (he’s very private about his personal life off the stage). And I certainly have high admiration for his talents and perceived personality.
But I don’t sense any experienced vulnerability/pains in him despite his voice could express them musically brilliantly (touching one’s backbones/spirit), can’t “see” a bit of myself in his eyes, can’t sense that he’d be able to understand some human sufferings (e.g. my childhood/youth traumas) without first-hand experiences (the same with BTS). Thus I don’t sense he’s relatable to me personally. I would not know what to say, besides his songs, if put in a room with him. I’d have more to say/ask that Old Sammash, who seemed to get the hang of “Screaming” at…. —
https://youtu.be/gFrQXcHSp2c?si=fyVTpfDc3nsFy_e9
In my dream, Dimash appeared genuinely kind and sincere but impersonable. I was deeply touched and thoroughly enjoyed co-writing music with him and produced 3-4 sheets of musical notes, while my immobile body laid on the top of a clanking, gently rocking subway train under the starry sky. But that did not feel like Glimmer after waking up, as how it is defined in LwL…. Still, whatever it was spiritually or Unconsciously, is unforgettable❗️
https://youtu.be/9efIWFhD8a4?si=iSC58ja1ge1cTiM4 — Dimash — Across Endless Dimensions
“He sounds fun to me. When was the last time you had fun? Balls-to-the-walls fun. Not a “pleasant” time. Not a “nice” time. But FUN. It’s not common as we get older. “
My Dad was a quite charmer and goofyist after his middle age for almost everyone else, but not me so much — he could not help put me down in front of others, so I could neither totally relax or show my authenticity in front of others with his presence.
Then we quarreled a lot because he enthusiastically wanted to “interfere/in control” my personal affairs even type of shampoo I needed to buy! 🙄 I appreciated Dad so much more after he’s sadly gone — people always miss what’s no longer “here and now” 😢 …
What is “Balls-to-the-walls” fun like? I had some hearty fun by teasing you bunch of 👻 👻 here after my Longing was gone… 😂 😂 even if I could not see your faces and sense the whole of you….
“The young girl fetish would have killed it for me. Completely. It would have grossed me out. I would have lost respect for him. I’m assuming he was at least in his 30s ?”
Yes, he was 34; he said he was catching up his gf’s parents age as the time passed. His 18-yrs fetish was a root of his depression, but he couldn’t understand why. My Glimmer for him was not high enough (G5) for me to care about who/what ever he was or relocate myself to Paris. He had NO parental quality.
[“Where are true positive/progressive “rebels” in this arena?”]
“The rebels are you and me! “
I don’t know how much of rebel I was/am. I just naturally did not follow some (not all) of cultural scripts from the both/multiple world. So I’m in a no-man’s land/nest. ❄️ 🐦🔥
“I don’t believe in souls, but I do believe in meeting people and having a strong connection. It doesn’t have to be romantic. “
I’m agnostic about souls. Your sense of “strong connection” — I’d call it spirit! I do believe in spirits, kindred spirits. I can be attracted to others’ spirits with or without the physical package or romantic feelings; words can exude some spirits in some personality, but not all; sometimes the way off of my mental pictures…. 🙃
“And, no, you can’t “effort” your way into a connection like that. The effort would just keep the connection strong. The connection doesn’t come from the effort. Sometimes you meet people and you click. “
Agree. We talked about this: their glimmer needs to be at least g5-6 for our Glimmer and their g7-8 compatibility with ours, and our Glimmer level needs to be G5-6 to begin with. I’m not talking about g4/G4 situations.
“What does that have to do with watching a comedy series? “
Why would I watch any shows, if their leading actors and actress don’t appeal to me? I checked some photos of the series, I want even less now to watch it, sorry.
[“To me, he’s a “wild, savage” kind.”] “Exactly. Giddy up.
Sorry. I’m in a silly mood. If you’re going to be alone with someone in a room, you want a little bit of that energy coming from them.”
Sorry to repeat that I did/do NOT want that energy in a man, nor get into a room with such “wild, savage” male like your Rege Page. I mentioned many times before I dislike macho guys; no one can “corrupt” me on this until my next life, perhaps…
“He’s a very good actor but not sexy to me. Although he has tons of female fans. They’re called Cumberbitches! “
Agree! I like his acting and voice a lot (g6), but not much of my Glimmer — G2/3.
”He’s cute but he has no heat. “
I like Benedict Bridgerton’s gentle, artistic, savvy ways, although evasive sometimes. I do not like the kind of wild “heat” that Rege-Jean Page exudes… I do not want or appreciate Dephne’s “fawning” as his woman. In beautiful and powerful tango, the female and male weave into each other with two sets of matching skills. Check that Ying and Yang round symbol — it’s not lead or follow dynamic.
“I think the stories are too simplistic. And the characters seem silly to me. Flying dragons, etc.”
Precisely why I like them — their simplicity and cute silliness. Flying dragons with John Hurt’s voice and laughter are so cute and funny, I could not help laugh with him. 😹There is kid inside of all of us. Losing that innocence completely would be pitiful.
“That’s definitely a Western mindset, yes. “
What a waste of advanced knowledges and technologies. It’s pitiful.
”I mean, if they helped you. I just find them … well, juvenile. I realize I’m in the minority. The fantasy genre is very popular. “
I like to be in juvenile/kiddy while relaxing or by myself. It’s very tiresome and nerve racking to be always in grownup working, logical, or practical mode. Who says grownups have to behave adults-like all the time? I strive to watch at least one episode of a fantasy shows at night, to wash my mind off its “daytime dusts”.
“I don’t like the fantasy genre, and I can assure you I am far from overly practical and rational. “
Okay, I believe your own self-assessment (can’t 6-sense you): you’re often in over romantic, emotional, impractical and irrational modes? I’m quite boring outwardly… but there is an inner interesting world to feed my own curiosity; I rely on myself dominantly but willing to share whatever I have to worthy, able reciprocal minds.
“Maybe I’m not being fair. We do share things about our lives that are beyond chitchat. And she does have a generosity of spirit. She’s just noticed I don’t seem like myself lately and has yet to ask me why or offer to talk about it. Which I think is strange. “
What is strange about it? Her caring attitude or her assessment?
“This is true in general for all posters about the limitations of a blog as a means of communication. Tone is sometimes hard to decipher. “
The tone is vitally important. As an ESL, I still face big challenges to soften/appropriate tones of my sentences while eagerly trying to get my meanings across.
”Oh, he’s a total diplomat. More like a politician. SOOO MANYY WORDS! And what was actually said? “ (I’m KIND of teasing. :))
Huh…. I’m teasing here with you together… 🤭
“Chanting style? “
It’s reiteration of some words or a part of a sentence (structure) to enforce contents of a passage. Eg. Sentence 1 (S1): ABCDE; S2: CDEFG; S3: EFGHI… on and on. In a communist system, they “chant” their ideological slogans/ideas in this style to enforce and brainwash young and old minds. Gradually, those ideologies effectively get imprinted in one’s whole system (neural pathway is affected) without one’s clear awareness. Even after coming to the West for many years, such style of speech still gives me goosebumps, I could not help it.
In writing essays or poems, repetition of words, phases, and sentence patterns are avoided as much as possible.
“Well, I’m a woman and I’m breathing. Thus, I have access to sex. “
I was/am also a breathing woman, but did/do not have nor care(d) about an access to meaningless sex. I did/do not want a sex-walking-robot, even offered.
“No, my one-nighter/hook up reappeared. I’m good. No need to repeat that. “
That’s the spirit of it! ✅
[“sex without mental and emotional attachment was unthinkable/unfathomable.”] “Good luck finding it with mental and emotional attachment. “
I had some luck in the past. In all my ex LEs, there were mental and emotional attachment to certain degrees, with or without sex, mostly not at the level I desired as a whole package (body, mind, and spirit). Without enough emotional or mental attachment, I’d prefer to be by myself.
“But what if the guy at the drive-thru window is cute? “
What’s a big deal for being cute? Sorry to sound so judgmental or arrogant. I’ve rarely paid attention to any cute guys to the point of going back for his service or give extra tips. My intuitive eyes usually went beyond glimmering surface fast regardless of men or women; I could not help it since young.
“It’s just that I’ve said enough on here about myself; the hobbies are giving too much away. “
Understand. I’ve revealed myself the way more than necessary. But I had little to hide (did not cross any red-flagged boundaries), or to lose, so I care much less about my identity.
“This afternoon, I was just assigned with another new male, heritage student (in his 40s) — g2/G0.
”So the world would see his glimmer as a 2 and you see it as zero ?”
That means objectively he’s g2 appealing to the world, but my attraction to him is G0. Dimash has g10, and I still can’t work my G4 to the level G5/6, without any personal interaction. But I’ll pay $$ to experience/feel his talent in person.
“If the glimmer is only a 2 … that’s not even enough to motivate me to get up from my chair to cross the room and cruise him. “
To me, a glimmer under 5 won’t get me up from a chair.
”How are you feeling? Are you supposed to get annual or semi-annual radiology tests to monitor your health?”
How did you even remember my annul CT checkup? I saw my Oncologist yesterday for my annual, she said I’ve had more blood work and MRI lately (due to the surgery) done more than she needed. No more CT is needed (based on those blood tests), but she still withdrew more blood from me for her needed data in lymphoma/cancers domain. This morning, I just got another 7-8 pages of the report. Nothing looks suspicious (I learned back in 2020 how to read them) but will confirm with her on Thursday or next Monday.
At the bottom of this coffeehouse, I put the whole NYT article “The Trouble With Wanting Men” for you to view and get a better idea what the author is trying to say.
Typo: “and in-discriminative charity,”
Lady Marcia,
Let’s continue our never-ending charming chitchats in a new coffee house!
“I don’t find Tylenol all that effective for pain. Do you?”
That’s why I was saying “taking a large dose of t-..” and the whole passage was blocked from uploading yesterday. I uploaded in several pieces at a time to figure out which words or sentences were the issue…
I have a weak, hereditary acidic stomach, sensitive/irritated to other painkillers. Can’t take any juice (fresh fruits are fine), sticky rice (acidic), allergic to Honeydew, can’t digest cheese (ice cream is fine), nor many nuts, tofu, hard-boiled eggs; but it can handle well-cooked beef and likes fishes of all kinds.
When the wifi repairman showed up the next day after I came home (7/20) and saw me standing straight in the room, he asked, “you just had surgery?” (I asked the them to send a person since I could not bend to coordinate with them online for a quick fix). I can endure a lot of pains while seemingly functioning normal — a result of growing up under screwed Big Brother❗️
Today, one week from my surgery (7/17), I’m feeling almost normal, with only one tiny area of internal pains. I still can’t carry heavy loads or pull open heavy doors. My appetite increased a little bit last night, so I’m taking 5 small meals — 4/5 tablespoons of rice porridge for each. I take two over-one-mile walks per day now and lost nearly 5 pounds in the past 5 days….
My LF is not so lucky. After 14 days of her surgery, she could only make 4 daily trips from her living room to bathroom, while carrying three drainage system on her. She has asked 6 months of leave from work. I’ll spend sometime with her when she’s ready to take walks outside.
*************
“Lay low dudes wouldn’t be “excellent in sex.” They have to … um … make some effort. “
You’ll have to read the whole NYT article to know what the author is trying to say, don’t you have a public library nearby?
“I was kidding, but I mean that in general. Effort to keep up communication, to make/arrange dates. It’s all under the same umbrella. That’s what I meant by watching their behavior. Flim-flammers fall away pretty quickly.”
You have a very valid point for the app dating life. But let’s face it, even doing all these does not guarantee a relationship could and would be budding. Our emotions and mentalities don’t change that fast, unless the other side or ourselves is a level 9-10 L🅾️.
“That may be true. I haven’t done enough dating of late to really get a good sense of how pervasive the behavior is. I’d say if the guy isn’t stepping up (or if he disappeared), walk away. What else can you do? “
Based on the NYT article, “women came, men withdrew and non-monogamy date” seems to be the current dating trend.
“It’s just a matter of having the same mindset with the person. When I started the online stuff, I didn’t really know what I wanted. Now I’m just narrowing it down. “
It’s clear-minded to narrow down what one wants, like shopping in Macy’s. But dating or befriending another person is NOT like shopping for anything else in the world. To tango well, we need our partner at the same page with a same/similar set of tango skills.
“How is that controlling? “
Controlling in Stoic sense is NOT what we tell others what to do, but what we EXPECT them to do. It’s that want/desire, e.g. “I would want the word “relationship” to at least be on his radar screen if he met the right person” is “controlling”. There are many types of desires, some are biologically natural, some laid back (nice to have but unnecessary), some “controlling” (others; uncontrollable) ….
“I’m not telling him what to do or what to want. All I’m saying is that one has to be in the headspace of being ready for a relationship. “
“One has to be”❓ 😳 By saying “I just go with it,” does NOT mean one is NOT ready nor ready, it means the mind is fluid and flexible, better than fixed! That is where my mind is nowadays.
“I don’t mean psychotically focused on it but open to it. And if someone isn’t, there’s no point in hanging out with them. “
Again, you can’t claim that guy was not ready, he only said, “I just go with it.” I’m NOT doing anything pro—active in friendship/relationship, but I can tell you that my mind is fully ready for anything. 😃
[“He’s another person, whatever he thinks, feels, says, and does is out of our control. If he’s not ready or open to the idea of “relationship”, we have to respect that state of his mind, no matter how much we want him to make up his mind.”]. “Where was I saying anything different?”
Your complained that he did not show a sign on your radar that he’s ready for “relationship”. Then you dismissed him. He might well be ready, but just needs a bit of more time. Of course, it’s up to you to decide the length of “more time.”
“Hearing music tends to be a more visceral experience than reading someone’s writing. But it depends on the writer.”
Agree with you here! You won’t believe what dream I had last night — I was co-composing a piece of song with Dimash — the only person’s concert in the world I’m willing to spend $300 for a ticket (not the $4000 one near the stage).
💭 Dream: I was lying on a top of slightly-shaking subway train in darkness, and Dimash was running away from paparazzi in my town. He kneeled down in front of me asking why I was lying there, I said I just had a surgery and could not move. He asked what surgery it was, so I told him. Then, he said he’d write a song for “all womanhood and motherhood… ”
The next evening, hundreds of screaming young people chased him around my town, and he sneaked to my side still on the top of a subway train under the dark sky. So we began writing out actual musical notes together. (It was not hard in the dream). I felt touched that he’d spend time with me, a total stranger, writing a song… I woke up in the middle of composing… 😴
Now, I may fall in LE with a real celebrity! I respect and like Dimash’s personality, similar to or better than some of COO traditions.
“I like music that’s a little grittier. “
I like the music that could move Qi inside of me or shake my heart and soul, making goosebumps over my skin which most rock and pop can’t do — they’re whinny or “bourgeoisie”.
“I don’t know a lot about classical.”
Classical has movements and curves from lows to highs back and forth, pulsating with one’s emotional development. Also, any piece of classical allows one’s own imagination and interpretation to go wild…. Nothing is wrong or right, just what it feels to your system. It’s a kind of like looking at a piece of abstracting painting.
Try to listen to Berlioz’s “Symphonie Fantastique” to see if you can spot when the composer’s LO appears. After the success of the sympathy, his LO (a Shakespeare theater actress) finally learned who he was. He married her and the love died (1.5 or 4) ? years later. But he stayed in marriage and supported her until her death.
Another historical figure who is in LTR LE is Napoleon, whose love for his wife Josephine never flinched, you know why? Because she never emotionally reciprocated him despite having married him. She had lovers and he was very jealous, but he could do little to win her heart‼️
“I mean, I understand. I would like to completely remove all of my family conditioning! But I don’t know if that’s possible. “
If you can figure out what they are exactly and how they’re still affecting your current life, it’s possible to reduce/remove them; though it might not be completely. It depends on one’s awareness and determination.
“That’s what I’m doing. I’m not looking for dates at these things. As so far, I haven’t found any. “
Keep going! By Mathematical probability/random laws, you’ll meet some “right” men/women for friendship/relationship eventually. It’s an inevitable mathematical law.
“I think they’re awful. I just don’t know where else to meet available men. I’m not coming across them in my daily life as I’m out and about. So at some point, after taking my anti-nausea pills, I’ll get back on them. “
So knowing they’re awful, and you still would go there to compromise your standards? Do you think those available men would possibly be your match? would What do you FEAR if you stop going there❓
For me, I KNOW for 120% sure, my soulmates, or qualified friends or companions will NOT come from any app. —the fact that he’d go there would make him totally disqualified ❗️If I can never bump into any, then c’est la vie, I’m TOTALLY fine with IT, today or 40 years down the road‼️
[“I meant in our MIND. Pro-active applies to my solo activities”]. “To me, pro-active is the very antithesis of what goes on in our minds. It’s not thinking; it’s doing. It’s taking what’s in our minds out into the physical realm and making a decision and acting on it.”
I meant “feeing worried, depressed, hopeful or complaining” are in our mind. But applying the Stoic ways to our solo or relational activities is also MENTALLY pro-active. We need to choose what thoughts /reflections /memories to put in our mind: analyzing what are our active thinking, what reactive responding, what demoralizing recalling, or what inspirational imagining… Pro-active in mind is just as important as in physical realm, without which, the physical activities would lose ALL their meanings.
“I’d like to quit, but I have no other job lined up. And if I quit, I just go from the box I’m in now to another box (a new job).”
Your post cannot be worse than Epictetus, whose owner would beat his body just trying to make his spirit bent. Knowing the owner’s intentions, Epictetus prepared for each beating, endured the pains, but still smiled and argued with his owner while asked why he’s not angry or full of hatred. I admired him more than Marcus Aurelius, who had everything as an emperor but chose to be Stoic.
Just as you so insightfully see that moving from a job to another would not take the uncontrollable dynamic away! From my 👁️, you’re in the right position to practice Stoicism that would reduce or remove your vexation about your unavoidable tasks.
In the East, we’re taught from little to LIKE WHAT WE HAVE TO DO, not just do what we like. I occasionally reached that high level, but mostly I could stay calm and complete what I had to do in jobs or family duties. I was always clear that there was NO WAY to get away from them, so just get on with them without any fussing, which would have no effect whatsoever…
Patience, endurance, acceptance, and compassion (for others and oneself) are four ancient COO traditions. I still need to work on patience, my Qi often runs 🏃🏻♀️ faster ahead of my mind… 😊
Just got my excellent news half an hour ago:
**NO cancer** was found…
**NO pre-cancerous changes** were found…
All the tumors are **benign (non-cancerous)**
The main findings explain why the surgery was needed…. but thankfully, the final diagnosis shows no cancer or pre-cancer.
****
You LwL 👻 👻 👻 will have to put up with the cheeky me 🦚 for a long while… 🐦🔥
Now, 📣 a pencil ✏️ , a pencil ✏️ , my galaxy for a ✏️ ‼️ 😂
Whoop!
Fantastic news Snow!!! What a great day.
Sending you a hug
🙏🤲🙏
🫂 🤗 🐝 🧙♀️ 🫂 🤗
Snow,
That is fantastic news! 🙂 You must feel so relieved! I’m sure that was weighing on you.
Thank you, Marcia! 👯♀️
I indeed feel really relieved, although I wasn’t weighed down consciously that much as I told Mila a few days ago…
Trying to physically recovering, chatting with you guys, cooking, listening to the old Proust, and watching Austen movies… just distracted me from thinking about this anticipated pathological report. The worst would be that I would need to take radiation therapies — still not the end of the world!
Instinctively speaking, I did feel my time was about over… my Karma in the life-or-death domain so far has been quite merciful — Ah, that Fate 🫓 lady 💁♀️
I want to celebrate 🎉 now, but can’t drink or eat anything substantial yet, except Kombucha Tea and rice congee!
Thank you for cheering me on everyday! 🥰
Snow,
“The worst would be that I would need to take radiation therapies — still not the end of the world!”
When will know you about that? If the report came back no cancer, do you need it?
“Instinctively speaking, I did feel my time was about over… my Karma in the life-or-death domain so far has been quite merciful — Ah, that Fate 🫓 lady 💁♀️”
Oh, no. You have to many War of Peaces to write! 🙂
“I want to celebrate 🎉 now, but can’t drink or eat anything substantial yet, except Kombucha Tea and rice congee!”
Maybe when you are feeling better, you can get some Hu chocolate. 🙂
Darling 👯♀️ Marcia,
That’s the official surgical report (in laymen language) I got (at 4:30pm, my time) but I haven’t spoken to my surgeon or radiologist yet; both of them told me the growing tumors (sized a cantaloupe, weighted 897 grams) were most likely cancerous.
But a 🐦🔥 body defies all medical authorities ‼️ 🥳. I should NOT need any radiation therapy — no cancer or pre-cancer (but a big surgical scar) 💃 🎊 🎈 !
“You have to many War of Peaces to write! 🙂”
Huh? Many more “War of Peaces” to write ❓I just got incredible peace/joy after LE and Longing are gone, why/where do I have more “wars” to write❓
I want more peaces out of wars… Peace ✌️ , Peace ☮️ , the 🐦🔥 galaxy for Peace 🕊️ 🤭
Or you meant “War and Peace”❓How could I alone wage a war❓ against whom❓🧐
Yes, in a couple of days, I’ll walk 2 miles to 😘 that Hu 🍫 in Target! 🎯
Snow,
“That’s the official surgical report (in laymen language) I got (at 4:30pm, my time) but I haven’t spoken to my surgeon or radiologist yet”
When do you see/talk to them again?
“Huh? Many more “War of Peaces” to write ❓I just got incredible peace/joy after LE and Longing are gone, why/where do I have more “wars” to write❓”
No. That you have more War and Peaces to write on here. Many more long posts to write. 🙂
The reoccurring subconscious Typo:
“Instinctively speaking, I did NOT feel my time was about over… “
I kept missing “not” all over the places, in “life-or-death” sentences… 🤭
Miss Marcia,
I will call my surgeon tomorrow (scheduled to see her on 8/19th for a post-surgical exam), she’s bound to discuss with me over the phone about my official surgical report.
I begin to worry that my verbose “War and Peace” chapters are annoying those limerents’ enmeshed suffering souls… hopefully they’ll take my ramblings as a distraction from their LE.
Great news Snow! That’s fantastic, I’m very glad! Congratulations 🥂❤️
🔥🦩,
Such wonderful news Snow! That must be such a relief for you.
For as long as you can deal with us frazzled and blinkered limerents, you can continue to light up the blog with your emoji salads and new found sense of joy 😊
I notice Mila’a reply didn’t confirm about the ✏️. But I have faith she has popped one in the post for you.
LaR and Snow,
I‘m just in the process of choosing the most shiny, sharpened and pretty specimen of a pencil for Snow.
🔥 🍊 🍷 🌱 🌽 🧊 🍹,
Come along Come along, ✏️ ✏️ ✏️ ‼️ — shinny ones that would inevitably bend LO’s back to pick it up… 😘
❄️ 🏵️ 🌱 🍅 🍑 🦜 🪳 🐞 😊 🐰 🐦🔥🚜🌱🌽🥂🏵🌱🍅
Wonderful news! It’s not the winter of our discontent but a summer of happiness after all.
☁️,
Yes, the land of limerents can’t alway be the bitter winter of discontent… I’ll try to add a dose of a summer of rosy 🌺 blossoms, orange 🍊 joys, and rosy 🏵️ hopes of 🆓 kingdom🪂…
Just spoke with an assistant doctor about my surgical report, everything I analyzed was/is correct, I’m cancer free and no need to do anything now. Her words, “Congratulations, you’re done!” ✅
💃 😊😁☺️😋🤩🥰 🥳🦚 🧨 🎇
🐦🔥 ☄️
Fantastic, Snow!! Better than any pencil or pencil picker upper!
🔥 🍊 🍷,
Now, I need to get back into shape, so not only I can throw your shinny pencils, but also pick up the butt 👖 of a ✏️ picker … 😋
95% pain-free with steady walks, I’ve dismissed Mom for her limited help, and will perhaps go back to work next week, a week earlier….
Snow,
Great news! You couldn’t have asked for a better health report!
Now you can go out and get that Hu chocolate and eat THE WHOLE BAR at once! You can do it. You’ve lost 5 pounds. 🙂
And get foods for a traditional COO meal, which you’ll be cooking for me. You can do it. You’re better now. 🙂 (MJ might show up, uninvited, but we’ll ignore him. :))
Marcia,
Yes, there could not be any better health report than I’ve got! It’s 🐦🔥’s FATE! 🎶 Da-di-la-di-da! Da-fi-la-di-da! 🎼
It’s 96 F outside now, so tomorrow I’ll get Hu 🍫 and eat it the whole piece! My appetite is crawling back… 😋
And I’m cooking 80-course COO traditional banquet tonight at L’🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️! All is welcome 🤗 🎊 🧨 🎇
For you 👯♀️, I’m 📣 the whole galaxy: “A butt, a butt, my kingdom for a butt! “🔊
What’s this about butts, chocolate and 80 course meals? Don’t overdo it on the first day Snow😆
Wait a bit before deciding if you go to work earlier. You are happy and enthusiastic now, and with full right, but your body might need a bit more time.
Snow,
“And I’m cooking 80-course COO traditional banquet tonight at L’🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️! All is welcome 🤗 🎊 🧨 🎇”
Except for MJ. 🙂 He’ll at least need to bring dessert.
“For you 👯♀️, I’m 📣 the whole galaxy: “A butt, a butt, my kingdom for a butt! “🔊”
I don’t understand this quote. Are you offering me your butt? I’m going to pass on that. 🙂
Mila 🔥 🍊 🍷 : I’ll weigh my captaincy carefully about working next week. I told my “boss” that I’d give her answer by Sunday evening.
80-course meal is for our L’🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️ here in LwL 🎊
Marcia 🆒 🍫: It’s an altered quote from Shakespeare’s “Richard III”. In the beginning of the play when Richard III was losing in a battle ground and lost his horse, he desperately called out, 📣 “A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!” He was willing to trade his kingdom for just a horse at that moment!
Thus the life-saving pencil for Mila, 🔊“a pencil ✏️, a pencil✏️, my kingdom for a pencil ✏️❗️ “
You like a “professional” male butt (definitely not mine😀), so I’m 🔊 for our party tonight — “a cheek, a cheek, my galaxy for a “professional” cheek❗️” 🤭
In COO banquet tradition, no guests bring their own food (won’t match the chef’s courses), it’s time to “show off”host/hostess’ hospitality and share merry spirits! 😊 In some regions, guests may bring a red envelope 🧧 with money in it, but never required❗️
I’m your hostess here tonight! Let’s 🎉 🎊
Miss Snow,
“Marcia 🆒 🍫: It’s an altered quote from Shakespeare’s “Richard III”. In the beginning of the play when Richard III was losing in a battle ground and lost his horse, he desperately called out, 📣 “A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!” He was willing to trade his kingdom for just a horse at that moment!”
I thought I recognized the quote but wasn’t sure why you substituted the word “butt.” 🙂
“You like a “professional” male butt (definitely not mine😀), so I’m 🔊 for our party tonight — “a cheek, a cheek, my galaxy for a “professional” cheek❗️” 🤭”
Finding a professional is rare. I have no expectations. 🙂
“In COO banquet tradition, no guests bring their own food (won’t match the chef’s courses), it’s time to “show off”host/hostess’ hospitality and share merry spirits! 😊 ”
Ah, ok. I will follow the traditions! 🙂
“In some regions, guests may bring a red envelope 🧧 with money in it, but never required❗️”
That’s just something for the gentlemen to do as the ladies will bring their charms. 🙂
Right, I’ve just been on the 💡🪑💡 for a long chat, and I’m hungry now. Which course are we currently on at the 🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️ COO buffet?
(I’ll keep an 👂out at the 🚪of the 🛖🏠 for a 📦 from 🇩🇪 containing ✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️, while 🗣 with🦰 👨⚖️ and 👨🏭)
Here is 🐦🔥 treat for L’🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️ —
https://imgur.com/a/LaCX2ag
Try to savor one small bite at a time… we have all the merry time on 🌍❗️
Snow
📦✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️🖍️🖍️🖍️🖍️🖍️🖊️🖊️🖊️🖊️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️✏️
🍷🍷🍷🍷🍷🍑🍑🍑🍑🍑
🔥 🍊 🍷,
Ohlalalala…. 64 (try number 66 for a best luck) shinny, color pencils…. 💕 💗‼️ Now, I can seriously play ✏️ throwing games… 👁️
How many and which dishes did you try at 🐦🔥 ‘s COO banquet❓Hope you did not poke the 🐉’s scales with your 🥢, or he might swallow you up at the buffet table 🤭
I still can’t cough, sneeze or 😂, which still hurts my incisions inside…. Please don’t humor 🤣 me too much …
❄️,
You have 6️⃣4️⃣ ✏️✏️🥇, I have just the 🕒 that 🍊🍷 managed to sneak into the jail 🥉.
But, from your Stoic training, I am grateful anyway. It only takes one ✏️ to get the job done 🍑
My goody bag for you, Mila — 🔥 🍊 🍷 (synchronicity — just landed in my email this morning)
****
Sphinx
Else Lasker-Schüler
translated from the German by Babette Deutsch and Avrahm Yarmolinsky
She sits upon my bed at dusk, unsought,
And makes my soul obedient to her will,
And in the twilight, still as dreams are still,
Her pupils narrow to bright threads that thrill
About the sensuous windings of her thought.
And on the neighboring couch, spread crepitant,
The pointed-patterned, pale narcissus fling
Their hands toward the pillow, where yet cling
His kisses, and the dreams thence blossoming,—
On the white beds a sweet and swooning scent.
The smiling moonwoman dips in cloudy swells,
And my wan, suffering psyches know new power,
Finding their strength in conflict’s tortured hour.
Sphinx
Sie sitzt an meinem Bette in der Abendzeit
Und meine Seele tut nach ihrem Willen,
Und in dem Dämmerscheine, traumesstillen,
Engen wie Fäden dünn sich ihre Glanzpupillen
Um ihrer Sinne schläfrige Geschmeidigkeit.
Und auf dem Nebenbette an den Leinennähten
Knistern die Spitzenranken von Narzissen,
Und ihre Hände dehnen breit sich nach dem Kissen
Auf dem noch Träume blühn aus seinen Küssen,
Wie süßer Duft auf weißen Beeten.
Und lächelnd taucht die Mondfrau in die Wolkenwellen
Und meine bleichen, leidenden Psychen
Erstarken neu im Kampf mit Widersprüchen.
****
In German culture, is it also “the woman on the Moon” (the same as COO)❓
I like this poem a great deal! 💗
🎩 🌱 🌽,
🙏 for your ☝️ —✏️ talent of smuggling in 🍑 🍷 into my post on the LwL side wing…
From now on, I’m going to use 🖊️ 🍑 🍷 to ✍️ my Rosy lines (let my rivals continue with their ♒️ prose❗️ )
Here, 🥂, Sir LaR de LwL❗️
Snow,
this one is translated with freedom, positively said, or, negatively, not quite accurate, but it’s very hard to translate. For example, there‘s no „unsought“ to be found in the original, and no translation of „schläfrige Geschmeidigkeit“that means „sleepy suppleness“, evoking a cat-like being (like the pupils).
„White beds“ isn’t correct in that it means flower beds (a different word in German- Bett and Beet).
In German culture is no woman on the moon, only a man in the moon…
Mila 🍑 🍷 ,
“The pointed-patterned, pale narcissus fling
Their hands toward the pillow, where yet cling
His kisses, and the dreams thence blossoming,—“
Is “narcissus” here the flower? Or the speaker? ( “Sphinx” is female in the poem, right?) I couldn’t quite get the image. I know the poet is a woman.
Yes, in COO, it’s always a Lady with her Rabbit on the moon: the legend of the Moon Festival every Fall on August 15th, the lunar calendar — the 2nd largest folk holiday after the Lunar New Year.
Do you have “Lidl” supermarket in Germany? I shop there all the time and walked 4 km to get some food there this morning.
Hi Snow,
for me it sounds as if there are pillows embroidered with narcissus flowers. It’s definitely the flowers, it’s a plural in German, not Narziss, the mythological person. But in German, it’s a bit more unclear, whose hands reach for the pillows. It says, „And on the neighbor bed, on the seams of the linen there crackle the embroidered tendrils of the narcissus. And their hands stretch broadly for the pillow, where dreams still blossom out of his kisses,like sweet scent on white flowerbeds“. could also be the hands of the Sphinx sitting at the bedside, but more likely she means the flowers. It’s a bit enigmatic , the poem. Sphinx is female in German, yes.
Lidl is a big cheap supermarket chain in Germany, lots of them here.
I think a lady with a rabbit is much nicer than some man!
I have to explain that the words for „her“ and „their“ are the same in German, so it could be „her hands“ or „their hands“.
I wondered about that translation, since I know some German and looked it over because the English was confusing. Some of the wordplay didn’t translate. I think the Sphinx is a cat?
Mila 🍑 🍷 ,
Thanks for the explanations, which make senses. But why “His kisses”? (The gender here threw me off… ) Is “he” the guy appears in the speaker’s dream, made her swoon?
The images of “on the neighbor bed, on the seams of the linen there crackle the embroidered tendrils of the narcissus. And their hands stretch broadly for the pillow, where dreams still blossom out of his kisses, like sweet scent on white flowerbeds“ are so vivid, sensual, and poetic… 💗
Hi Snow,
there must have been a „he“ there earlier, who kissed her on these pillows, and his kisses linger there and cause dreams. Maybe he (or the reason he‘s not there any more?) is the reason why her „pale, suffering psyches“are in a „fight with contradictions“.
Mila 🍑 🍷 ,
Your explanation makes me appreciate the poem much better now…. Thank you! 🤗
Understanding an original poem in its native tongue, even just its grammar, helps one appreciate it much, much more than a mere translation…
YAY! 🙂
Dear Snow:
I am a little late to the diagnosis party. Are you saying that they thought you had cancer, but it turns out that you didn’t? Or that they removed the cancer and that it’s gone now?
I did and do not have cancers or pre-cancerous changes at all, despite all symptoms indicated so. (I can’t put my whole medical report here.
I’m now a 9-life big 🐈!
Lady Snow,
“I have a weak, hereditary acidic stomach, sensitive/irritated to other painkillers. Can’t take any juice (fresh fruits are fine), sticky rice (acidic), allergic to Honeydew, can’t digest cheese (ice cream is fine), nor many nuts, tofu, hard-boiled eggs; but it can handle well-cooked beef and likes fishes of all kinds.”
Have you thought about trying an alkaline diet?
“When the wifi repairman showed up the next day after I came home (7/20) and saw me standing straight in the room, he asked, “you just had surgery?” (I asked the them to send a person since I could not bend to coordinate with them online for a quick fix). ”
That was good they sent someone. Sometimes they won’t do that unless the repair issue meets certain criteria.
“Today, one week from my surgery (7/17), I’m feeling almost normal, with only one tiny area of internal pains. I still can’t carry heavy loads or pull open heavy doors. My appetite increased a little bit last night, so I’m taking 5 small meals — 4/5 tablespoons of rice porridge for each. I take two over-one-mile walks per day now and lost nearly 5 pounds in the past 5 days….”
That all sounds good. You’re mending well. 🙂
“My LF is not so lucky. After 14 days of her surgery, she could only make 4 daily trips from her living room to bathroom, while carrying three drainage system on her.”
I’m sorry to hear that. It sounds like they sent her home too early from the hospital. It’s the insurance companies! They shove you out of the hospital asap.
“You’ll have to read the whole NYT article to know what the author is trying to say, don’t you have a public library nearby?”
I do. NYT used to give you a few free articles to read a month. They stopped doing that recently.
“You have a very valid point for the app dating life. But let’s face it, even doing all these does not guarantee a relationship could and would be budding. ”
Very true. There’s no guarantee.
“To tango well, we need our partner at the same page with a same/similar set of tango skills.”
Exactly! I need to know if they even want to dance!
““One has to be”❓ 😳 By saying “I just go with it,” does NOT mean one is NOT ready nor ready, it means the mind is fluid and flexible, better than fixed! That is where my mind is nowadays.”
We’ll have to agree to disagree.
“Again, you can’t claim that guy was not ready, he only said, “I just go with it.””
I don’t know if he was ready or not ready. Or maybe not ready with me. Hard to say. I just want someone who has a clearer idea of what they want. To be fair, I wasn’t super clear with him about what I wanted.
“Your complained that he did not show a sign on your radar that he’s ready for “relationship”. Then you dismissed him. He might well be ready, but just needs a bit of more time. ”
I didn’t dismiss him. He never contacted me after the second date. And I’m guessing here, but I think it was because I didn’t sleep with him. There’s my point! We were on different pages about what we wanted.
And I haven’t reach out myself because he’d already started exhibiting some of that withdrawing behavior you wrote about. So I thought there was no point.
“Agree with you here! You won’t believe what dream I had last night — I was co-composing a piece of song with Dimash — ”
I just looked him up. He’s cute.
” I felt touched that he’d spend time with me, a total stranger, writing a song… I woke up in the middle of composing… 😴”
That’s a wild dream! I don’t think I’ve ever had a dream where a celebrity made an appearance.
“I like the music that could move Qi inside of me or shake my heart and soul, making goosebumps over my skin which most rock and pop can’t do — they’re whinny or “bourgeoisie”.”
It’s is bourgeois. Maybe even low brow. That’s why I like it. It’s primal.
“Try to listen to Berlioz’s “Symphonie Fantastique” to see if you can spot when the composer’s LO appears. ”
Ok
” Because she never emotionally reciprocated him despite having married him. She had lovers and he was very jealous, but he could do little to win her heart‼️”
Didn’t he dump her because she couldn’t have kids? Wasn’t he with some much younger woman when he died? (I may be getting that wrong.)
“So knowing they’re awful, and you still would go there to compromise your standards? Do you think those available men would possibly be your match? would What do you FEAR if you stop going there❓”
They could be a match. It’s not so much a fear but a reality: I rarely meet available guys. And if I do, I don’t want to date them. As you wrote, it’s just upping the mathematical chances.
“the fact that he’d go there would make him totally disqualified ❗️”
I feel different. Going on the apps meant he was pro-active and getting off his butt! 🙂
“I meant “feeing worried, depressed, hopeful or complaining” are in our mind. ”
I don’t really feel depressed or worried about the apps. I feel depressed about what happened with LO-lite. But there’s not a damn thing I can do about it.
“Your post cannot be worse than Epictetus, whose owner would beat his body just trying to make his spirit bent. ”
Well, duh! 🙂 I’m not getting beaten every day.
I just don’t like to HAVE to be somewhere and be told what to do and be at someone else’s mercy. But … it’s called having a job.
” I was always clear that there was NO WAY to get away from them, so just get on with them without any fussing, which would have no effect whatsoever…”
I usually just check out mentally as much as possible. Of course, that means I’m checked out from a big part of my life as work takes up a big part of life.
Lady Marcia,
“Have you thought about trying an alkaline diet? “
I have to check what “alkaline diet” is.
[“To tango well, we need our partner at the same page with a same/similar set of tango skills.”]. Exactly! I need to know if they even want to dance! “
🆎! Forget about it if the other side doesn’t even have a wish. My point was NOT to eagerly dance too soon; hold your breath a bit longer if you are selecting possibly matching candidates. You and all the women in the New York Times article sound quite eager to me.
[By saying “I just go with it,” does NOT mean one is NOT ready nor ready, it means the mind is fluid and flexible, better than fixed! That is where my mind is nowadays.]
“We’ll have to agree to disagree. “
Yes, we do ‼️🤗
“I don’t know if he was ready or not ready. Or maybe not ready with me. Hard to say. I just want someone who has a clearer idea of what they want. To be fair, I wasn’t super clear with him about what I wanted. “
You see, it’s quite normal for both sides not clear about what they want from each other, while just getting to know a “new” human being with all his/her fine qualities and quirks.
“I didn’t dismiss him. He never contacted me after the second date. And I’m guessing here, but I think it was because I didn’t sleep with him. There’s my point! We were on different pages about what we wanted.”
In this case, forget about him, whose interest in you could not even hold beyond the 2nd date! Who says that one has to sleep with a date on a second date⁉️
“And I haven’t reach out myself because he’d already started exhibiting some of that withdrawing behavior you wrote about. So I thought there was no point. “
I totally support you here: assess anyone based on his behaviors, not just words alone, even if he can recite Baron to you!
“I just looked him up. He’s cute.”
Dimash is incredible cute mixing best features of the East and West, and so talented in singing!
”That’s a wild dream! I don’t think I’ve ever had a dream where a celebrity made an appearance.”
I never dreamed one before, either‼️ In the dream, he looked just like him in reality, feminine, humble, shy, sincere, totally dived in each of his songs ….
I think I dreamed him was because I bought my first concert ticket for a celebrate singer — the most passionate one for my system 💗
“It’s is bourgeois. Maybe even low brow. That’s why I like it. It’s primal.”
In most ways, I cannot stand bourgeois, I think I belong to starving artsy group aspiring for excellence/perfection, having little interests in materials and fine living.
“They could be a match. It’s not so much a fear but a reality: I rarely meet available guys. And if I do, I don’t want to date them. As you wrote, it’s just upping the mathematical chances.”
I understand your approach. It’s just not my cup of tea. I tried it and 🆎 know it’s not for me‼️
[“the fact that he’d go there would make him totally disqualified ”] “I feel different. Going on the apps meant he was pro-active and getting off his butt! “
Again myself don’t believe pro-active approach in relationship, so I would not like or respect a pro-active guy from a “catalogue”. I don’t want to be compared and chosen as an “object” nor want to treat any of them as an “object”. I’m just an old-fashioned lady who is fatalistic and whose subconscious is “picky” in glimmers. App men NEVER gave me a glimmer more than level 5.
“I don’t really feel depressed or worried about the apps. I feel depressed about what happened with LO-lite. But there’s not a damn thing I can do about it. “
Ah, still that unavailable LO-lite! Believe me, I know what it’s like, I was in your position for 7/8 years until this past April, without ever crossing the line or getting superficial “disclosure”. I hope another LO, or a high-qualified “catalog” man can squeeze LO-lite out of your mind soon! 🤲
“I just don’t like to HAVE to be somewhere and be told what to do and be at someone else’s mercy. But … it’s called having a job. “
I guess having a “job” is different from a “career”, right? So I’m having a part-time career. I decide what to teach, while following some logistic rules of HE institution. Students are my judges (if they don’t become a pet limerent 🙄)
” I usually just check out mentally as much as possible. Of course, that means I’m checked out from a big part of my life as work takes up a big part of life.”
Perhaps just treat it as a part of your Fate and try to get on with it BETTER with more mental serenity?
”Didn’t he dump her because she couldn’t have kids? Wasn’t he with some much younger woman when he died? (I may be getting that wrong.)”
Let’s me copy you what AI says about Napoleon and Josephine, I watched the miniseries of 1987 “ Napoleon and Josephine: A Love Story” and quite admired his deep, lasting passion for her — Jacqueline Bisset’s Josephine is beautiful.
*********************
Napoleon Bonaparte and Joséphine de Beauharnais shared one of history’s most dramatic, passionate, and ultimately tragic love stories. Here’s a breakdown of their relationship:
#Key Phases & Dynamics:
1. **Unconventional Beginning (1795):**
– Joséphine (32, a widow with two children) was a prominent socialite in post-Revolution Paris.
– Napoleon (26) was a rising but unknown general. He was instantly captivated by her charm, elegance, and connections.
– Their whirlwind courtship lasted months. Napoleon wrote fervent love letters: *”You to whom all my thoughts are directed… my soul is bruised.”*
2. **Passionate Marriage (1796–1799):**
– Married March 9, 1796, just days before Napoleon left to command the Italian campaign.
– **Love Letters:** Napoleon’s letters from the front were obsessive: *”I wake filled with thoughts of you… Your portrait and the memory of last night’s delirium have robbed my senses.”*
– **Joséphine’s Infidelity:** While Napoleon was in Egypt (1798–99), Joséphine had an affair with a young officer, Hippolyte Charles. Napoleon learned of it and was devastated.
3. **Cracks & Political Pragmatism (1800–1809):**
– **Infertility:** Joséphine could not give Napoleon an heir, a critical issue after he became Emperor (1804).
– **Napoleon’s Affairs:** He took mistresses openly, seeking emotional revenge and dynastic options.
– **Power Dynamics:** Joséphine used her position as Empress to amass wealth and influence, becoming a fashion icon and patroness of the arts. Despite strains, they retained deep mutual affection.
4. **The Divorce (December 15, 1809):**
– **Reason of State:** Napoleon needed a legitimate heir to secure his dynasty. Joséphine, aged 46, was past childbearing.
– **Emotional Farewell:** The divorce ceremony was tearful. Napoleon praised her: *”She has adorned 15 years of my life; the memory will forever remain engraved on my heart.”*
– Joséphine retained the title “Empress” and received Malmaison Palace and a generous pension.
5. **Enduring Bond (After Divorce–1814):**
– Napoleon visited Joséphine regularly at Malmaison and wrote her letters.
– He confided in her about politics and his new wife, Marie Louise (whom he married in 1810).
– Joséphine died of pneumonia in 1814, days after hosting Tsar Alexander I at Malmaison. Napoleon, exiled in Elba, wept upon hearing the news.
– On his deathbed (1821), his last word was “**Joséphine**.”
#Why Their Love Fascinates History:
– **Passion vs. Power:** A collision of intense romance with the ruthless demands of empire-building.
– **Human Flaws:** Infidelity, jealousy, and vanity made them relatable despite their grandeur.
– **Unbreakable Connection:** Even after divorce, they remained emotionally intertwined. Napoleon later said: *”I truly loved her, but I did not respect her.”*
– **Tragedy:** Their love was thwarted by biology (infertility) and ambition (dynastic imperatives).
#Joséphine’s Legacy:
She revolutionized French style, popularized roses (cultivating 250+ varieties at Malmaison), and secured her children’s futures: her son Eugène became a viceroy, and daughter Hortèse married Napoleon’s brother, producing Napoleon III.
> “**Without Joséphine, there would have been no Bonaparte.**”
> —Reflection attributed to Napoleon on her role in his rise.
Their story remains a timeless blend of ardor, betrayal, sacrifice, and undying loyalty—a love that shaped an empire but could not conquer its own limitations. 🌹⚔️
Miss Snow,
“I will call my surgeon tomorrow (scheduled to see her on 8/19th for a post-surgical exam), she’s bound to discuss with me over the phone about my official surgical report.”
Oh, yes. I would call tomorrow. You need clarity on this.
“I begin to worry that my verbose “War and Peace” chapters are annoying those limerents’ enmeshed suffering souls… hopefully they’ll take my ramblings as a distraction from their LE.”
They don’t have to read them if they don’t want to. I don’t read all of the posts.
“I have to check what “alkaline diet” is.”
It’s a diet of food that is low in acids.
“🆎! Forget about it if the other side doesn’t even have a wish. My point was NOT to eagerly dance too soon; hold your breath a bit longer if you are selecting possibly matching candidates. You and all the women in the New York Times article sound quite eager to me.”
Again, we’ll have to agree to disagree. 🙂
“You see, it’s quite normal for both sides not clear about what they want from each other, while just getting to know a “new” human being with all his/her fine qualities and quirks.”
Yes … as I wrote …. 🙂 … they might not know what they want WITH ME. But I want them to be in the headspace for something serious if we end up liking each other and things go well.
“In this case, forget about him, whose interest in you could not even hold beyond the 2nd date! Who says that one has to sleep with a date on a second date⁉️”
I thought it was a little soon (I’m guessing what he wanted, but he got a little handsy) and I was genuinely trying to get to know him. I think he was looking for an fwb. At least with me.
“I totally support you here: assess anyone based on his behaviors, not just words alone, even if he can recite Baron to you!”
In retrospect, it’s probably for the best. There were a couple of incompatibilities that would have been a problem. Another reason I didn’t reach out to him.
“Dimash is incredible cute mixing best features of the East and West, and so talented in singing!”
I think those guys in BTS are pretty cute. The Korean pop band.
“I never dreamed one before, either‼️”
It sounds like a great dream to have !
“I think I dreamed him was because I bought my first concert ticket for a celebrate singer — the most passionate one for my system 💗”
You’re excited for it. You’ve mentioned it about 10 times. 🙂 When is the show?
“In most ways, I cannot stand bourgeois, I think I belong to starving artsy group aspiring for excellence/perfection, having little interests in materials and fine living.”
I like a mixture of stuff when it comes to the arts — low, medium, high brow. It just depends.
“I understand your approach. It’s just not my cup of tea. I tried it and 🆎 know it’s not for me‼️”
I’m going to try it again. I’m not doing it now. I don’t know how long I’ll last . 🙂 I only did it very briefly before.
“App men NEVER gave me a glimmer more than level 5.”
The only guy who I matched with who I thought was pretty cute was the guy I went out with. Less so on the second date than the first, but I did think he was attractive and I thought we had some good conversations … thus, I was willing to give it a shot.
“Ah, still that unavailable LO-lite!”
Oh, yes. He’s parked in my head.
“I hope another LO, or a high-qualified “catalog” man can squeeze LO-lite out of your mind soon! 🤲”
We’ll see. I don’t plan on getting back on the apps right this second. Actually, getting on the apps made things worse … I was distracted but the catalogue men just showed me … well, ain’t nothing like LO lite. 🙂
“I guess having a “job” is different from a “career”, right?”
No. Not really. You’re still in a box. Ostensibly, a “career” is a higher quality job and the money/benefits may be better and/or it may require/utilize more of one’s skills and talents, but it’s still a job at the end of the day.
“So I’m having a part-time career.”
You can make enough money working part-time?
“Students are my judges ”
Do they post online reviews?
“(if they don’t become a pet limerent 🙄)”
Guard against this!
“Perhaps just treat it as a part of your Fate and try to get on with it BETTER with more mental serenity?”
I mean, I have to have a job. No way around it.
“Let’s me copy you what AI says about Napoleon and Josephine, I watched the miniseries of 1987 “ Napoleon and Josephine: A Love Story” and quite admired his deep, lasting passion for her — Jacqueline Bisset’s Josephine is beautiful.”
Yes, Chef! 😉 The one with Armand Assante as Napoleon! He is sexy. I’ve seen that series. And, yes, Bisset is gorgeous. The only scene I remember is the one where he tells her he’s in love with her, and he’s so nervous he has to turn away from her.
In terms of Napoleon and Josephine, you’ve probably heard of this already, but Napoleon once wrote to her, while he was out campaigning: “Please don’t wash, will arrive in three days.”
Wow. That’s … some primal s**t. 🙂
In terms of what you posted about them … here’s what I’ve never understood … the women who get with these guys AFTER their great loves. Good luck following that. I mean, I get it. He’s the emperor. No woman is going to turn him down (or maybe could turn him down). But who marries, for example, Richard Burton AFTER Elizabeth Taylor?! Are these women insane? He had two wives after they divorced for the second time.
Miss Marcia,
“They don’t have to read them if they don’t want to. I don’t read all of the posts. “
Very true. I read less and less of other posts, especially of those partnered limerents, I could not provide anything helpful, since I was/am not in their shoes. They have SO in one arm, LO in another, metaphorically speaking; I have none on either of my arms — truly free as a bird 🐦🔥
“It’s a diet of food that is low in acids. “
I checked it; I’m already on it for appropriate fruits and vegetables. But I need some protein, so taking fish mostly. I also can’t cut off freshly baked bread, so I take a small portion before lunch time. I snack a bit of nuts on the go.
“… they might not know what they want WITH ME. But I want them to be in the headspace for something serious if we end up liking each other and things go well. “
Anything, legitimate or not, we “want them to” be/do… is reaching something/someone beyond our control; it brings ANXIETY❗️ Nothing wrong or right about it, it’s just anxiety or even pain driving, based on Stoic principle and my own experiences. I had enough of it, no more.
I believe if a guy likes you enough, he will naturally be “in the headspace for something serious”, but to push for such an outcome may backfire. I know I would back up if I were a man dating you. I would neither push/urge you nor be pushed/urged by you, regardless of whether you’re a goddess!
“I thought it was a little soon (I’m guessing what he wanted, but he got a little handsy) and I was genuinely trying to get to know him. I think he was looking for an fwb. At least with me.”
How do you get to know him? Just by talking/chitchatting or doing something together outside living/bed room? I think many men and some women are looking for a fwb, since both sides are “morally” capable nowadays. It was/is not for me, nor would ever be….
“I think those guys in BTS are pretty cute. The Korean pop band. “
They’re the way too buttery, gourmet cakes to watch! I’d never date any of them, too feminine and juvenile! Their singings, compared to Dimash’s, are just colorless or cheesy. I’m a fan of Italian opera arias, who speaks more for the range of my deep emotions….
“It sounds like a great dream to have !”
🆎! I consider any dreams, in which I was trying to jolt down some purple lines or even musical notes (the first time, for 3-4 pages) are God given — a journey to the Milky Way! It’s so uplifting in spirit!
“You’re excited for it. You’ve mentioned it about 10 times. When is the show?”
Only 3 times (excluding this one). But I posted his songs more than 10 times in this site in the past two years, which even led to a huge impact in my LE and Longing removal journey…. 🚀…. The show will be on October 5.
“I like a mixture of stuff when it comes to the arts — low, medium, high brow. It just depends. “
I like the arts in terms of whether they can inspire my creativity or uplift my mood, regardless of their “low, medium, high brow” by official evaluations or popular opinions. Like you, appreciating arts is very personal.
“I’m going to try it again. I’m not doing it now. I don’t know how long I’ll last . “
I hope you hold less anxiety within yourself, whether you do it or not. I’ve been very content without doing it for over 14 years 😀
”We’ll see. I don’t plan on getting back on the apps right this second. Actually, getting on the apps made things worse … I was distracted but the catalogue men just showed me … well, ain’t nothing like LO lite. “
So here is the comparison between catalogue man and LO-Lite in their bedroom performance? I don’t think anyone can beat up LO-lite, since you’re in LE with him, much more emotionally attached, yes?
“No. Not really. You’re still in a box. Ostensibly, a “career” is a higher quality job and the money/benefits may be better and/or it may require/utilize more of one’s skills and talents, but it’s still a job at the end of the day.”
To me, the fundamental difference between a career or a job is that one ENJOYs doing the former regardless of its success or failure (in terms of money or fame). More than half of people who have a job do not enjoy doing it, but just to get a paycheck (small or big).
“You can make enough money working part-time?”
No, I can’t. But I have interests income. I lead a prudent life with one travel abroad once a year at least.
“Do they post online reviews?”
Yes, they do. But mostly for the internal reviews of faculty.
[(if they don’t become a pet limerent )] “Guard against this! “
🆎! It’s disgusting every time…
“I mean, I have to have a job. No way around it. “
So it’s even more important to have a peaceful or pleasant mind at the end of any day, despite the job’s dreariness. Only Stoicism could help, imp.
“The one with Armand Assante as Napoleon! He is sexy. I’ve seen that series. And, yes, Bisset is gorgeous. “
Armand Assante is like Clark Gable, your professional! I’d never go for him, but understand why they both appeal to certain types of women, or some women’s primal nature. My LF has the air of Caroqueline Bisset, but not as gorgeous; I like/appreciate sophistication and elegance out of education and creativities.
“The only scene I remember is the one where he tells her he’s in love with her, and he’s so nervous he has to turn away from her. “
I forgot that scene, but remember he’s so struck by her Glimmer at his first sight (she was in another room). She was just after the verge of exchanging her body with another man for an exit out of the prison, right? She is flattered by Napoleon, but did not seem to love him back as passionately as he ever was, based on the miniseries.
“In terms of Napoleon and Josephine, you’ve probably heard of this already, but Napoleon once wrote to her, while he was out campaigning:
“Please don’t wash, will arrive in three days.”
Wow. That’s … some primal s**t. “
No, I heaven’s heard of it, but to me it’s — Yuk‼️ three days 😱❓I can’t and won’t tolerate un-wash for 1 single day❗️I’ve witnessed how some poor COO folks living in that sort of physically“primal” states… 🤮
“In terms of what you posted about them … here’s what I’ve never understood … the women who get with these guys AFTER their great loves. Good luck following that. I mean, I get it. He’s the emperor. No woman is going to turn him down (or maybe could turn him down)“
These women are probably NOT limerents, or as romantic as you are… asking these bourgeoisie women about their ambition in romance, wealth, social status, practicality….one could get an answer.
“But who marries, for example, Richard Burton AFTER Elizabeth Taylor?! Are these women insane? He had two wives after they divorced for the second time.”
So you believe one can only have one soulmate for a lifetime? And in what ways, these two soulmates could keep their connections unbroken even after divorce? Richard Burton was unable to find more soulmates or compatible wives after Elizabeth❓
I don’t like Elizabeth Taylor that much at all, nor Burton! Among classical actresses, I like Ingrid Bergman Audrey Hepburn, and Greta Garbo most.
Miss Snow,
“I checked it; I’m already on it for appropriate fruits and vegetables. But I need some protein, so taking fish mostly. I also can’t cut off freshly baked bread, so I take a small portion before lunch time. I snack a bit of nuts on the go.”
I looked into it at one point because I was having stomach issues. I haven’t been on it but it seems to have helped some people.
“I believe if a guy likes you enough, he will naturally be “in the headspace for something serious”, ”
No, it’s more about timing and less about the person.
“but to push for such an outcome may backfire. ”
I’m not pushing. Just asking what they’re looking for, and if we’re not on the same page, we’re not on the same page. And we move on.
I think we should probably move on from this topic. We have different views on it.
“How do you get to know him? Just by talking/chitchatting or doing something together outside living/bed room? ”
Both.
“I think many men and some women are looking for a fwb”
I agree.
“They’re the way too buttery, gourmet cakes to watch! I’d never date any of them, too feminine and juvenile! ”
But you like feminine! 🙂 I like cute guys who can dance. It’s my low brow taste. I just think they’re fun. I can appreciate them for what they are. 🙂
“🆎! I consider any dreams, in which I was trying to jolt down some purple lines or even musical notes (the first time, for 3-4 pages) are God given — a journey to the Milky Way! It’s so uplifting in spirit!”
I’m so different. I can very rarely remember any of my dreams, and if I do, it’s just a quick scene or image.
“Only 3 times (excluding this one). ”
I was joking. 🙂
“I like the arts in terms of whether they can inspire my creativity or uplift my mood, regardless of their “low, medium, high brow” by official evaluations or popular opinions. Like you, appreciating arts is very personal.”
For me, it depends on what mood I’m in. Sometimes I’m in the mood for something fun (like BTS!). Sometimes I want to be moved (and read Anais Nin!). Sometimes I want to be challenged (and watch an Ingmar Bergman movie).
“I hope you hold less anxiety within yourself, whether you do it or not.”
For a bit, I was kind of irked/disappointed by the guy I dated a couple of times, but I’m not anymore. I’m over the whole thing. Oh … the one hookup I had (and yes, we talked about it being a hookup right from the start –both of us were on the same page, which I appreciated 🙂 ) … he reappeared out of nowhere the other day. Texted me. And I feel nothing.
Hopefully, when I return to the catalogue dating, I can be as detached to the outcome.
“So here is the comparison between catalogue man and LO-Lite in their bedroom performance?”
No. Interest level.
But, obviously, I was nowhere near as into the hookup as LO-lite … so how could the “bedroom performance” of the hookup be anything but ok ?
“To me, the fundamental difference between a career or a job is that one ENJOYs doing the former regardless of its success or failure (in terms of money or fame). ”
I didn’t really enjoy working even when I had a career-type job. There were bits and pieces of it I found fulfilling, but overall I disliked having to do it every day, all day, feeling trapped by having to be somewhere at a certain time every day, etc.
“More than half of people who have a job do not enjoy doing it, but just to get a paycheck (small or big).”
I say it’s more than half.
“Yes, they do. But mostly for the internal reviews of faculty.”
I’m sure you get good reviews! You seem to care about your students.
“So it’s even more important to have a peaceful or pleasant mind at the end of any day, despite the job’s dreariness. Only Stoicism could help, imp.”
Oh, I don’t like the job and I’m as SOOOO happy when my shift is over but I’m not unpleasant during my time at work.
“Armand Assante is like Clark Gable, your professional! ”
Yes. Like Gable, he has “that thing.” 🙂
“I’d never go for him, but understand why they both appeal to certain types of women, or some women’s primal nature. ”
He exudes sexual energy.
“My LF has the air of Caroqueline Bisset, but not as gorgeous; I like/appreciate sophistication and elegance out of education and creativities.”
I agree. Bisset is very elegant.
“She is flattered by Napoleon, but did not seem to love him back as passionately as he ever was, based on the miniseries.”
Or she was playing him. 🙂 Withholding a little bit of herself to keep him interested.
[“Please don’t wash, will arrive in three days.”
Wow. That’s … some primal s**t. “]
“No, I heaven’s heard of it, but to me it’s — Yuk‼️ three days 😱❓”
He wanted to smell her pheromones. You cover them up with scented soaps and perfumes. And scent is a big part of the sensual experience, for lack of a better wording.
“So you believe one can only have one soulmate for a lifetime?”
Not necessarily, but you don’t think people always marry their soulmates, do you? 🙂
” And in what ways, these two soulmates could keep their connections unbroken even after divorce?”
They were in and out of each others’ lives until he died. According to Taylor, he died (he was married to another woman at the time) and she flew to England for some kind of memorial. When she got home to Los Angeles, there was a letter from him waiting for her. Can you imagine? He did not know he was going to die. Just went to bed one night with a bad headache and never woke up. She wouldn’t reveal exactly what was in the letter, but from what she implied, it doesn’t sound like he’d gotten over her.
” Richard Burton was unable to find more soulmates or compatible wives after Elizabeth❓”
Having a wife and having a soulmate can be two different things.
“I don’t like Elizabeth Taylor that much at all, nor Burton! ”
I like them both.
“Among classical actresses, I like Ingrid Bergman Audrey Hepburn, and Greta Garbo most.”
Bergman and Hepburn are a bit too virginal/chaste for me (at least their personas). I like Garbo a lot. She fascinates me. Both on screen and in how she lived her life. Talk about someone who could play a limerent on screen! And she was sooo good on screen at conveying so much by seemingly doing almost nothing. Maybe just a shift of her eyes.
I am finding that No Contact does not seem to be helping at the moment.
Instead of getting stronger and more resolute, I am getting weaker and wishing I could contact LO. I dread dealing with his mercurial temper, and I suspect he’s in a VERY bad mood over his house-selling issues.
I am hanging onto my resolve, but only by a thread.
Dear Norma D,
Its so puzzling, isn’t it? We have chatted a lot on here about what you possibly get from your LO, to keep you wanting him despite his obvious drawbacks. Do you think that your LO represents some sort of excitement, maybe?
I know he’s leaving in a few months but figuring it out would maybe help you develop resistance to another event in the future.
To Bewitched:
Thank you for your response. I think being with LO is an “experience” for me. When I go to his house, I feel like I’m at Disneyland. The conversation is stimulating, and I am surrounded by beautiful objects that seem to be from another world.
The first time I walked into his house, all I could say was, “It’s Christmas for the eyes.”
LO’s business partner laughed and she said, “Yes, it certainly is.” LO said nothing, being LO, but his business partner understood what I was trying to convey.
So I guess I need to figure out a way to feel like I’m at Disneyland without involving LO.
Norma Desmond, do you need to don a backpack, travel the world and see as many World Heritage Sites as you can while you’re still young and fit enough to do so?
Oh, dear, I am long past that. I am 72 and in poor health.
Maybe that’s why I enjoy LO’s house so much. I am able to take a trip around the world, only two blocks away.
Even as thrilling as it is to visit LO, I can’t handle more than two hours before I need to go home and rest.
Lady Snow,
Moving this post here …
“As long as it’s treatable, then addict are given choice to treat their addiction, it’s up to their willpower and disciplines, which CAN be trained.”
That’s a bit dismissive. Some people struggle with it their whole lives. If willpower is all it took, there would be no addicts.
“I see. Are people born with enneagram types or neutered/cultured in their environment or influenced by their early experiences?”
I don’t really know. That’s a good question.
[ “Whereas as an Investigator … “Fives are alert, insightful, and curious. They are able to concentrate and focus on developing complex ideas and skills. Independent, innovative, and inventive, they can also become preoccupied with their thoughts and imaginary constructs. They become detached, yet high-strung and intense. “]
“I do sound like that, don’t I❓ I feel flattered to have those qualities 😊”
It does sound like you. 🙂
“Does it mean that I can be or come across as eccentric, nihilistic, and isolated❓They are me, too, except rarely nihilistic”
No, you don’t sound nihilistic. You don’t sound negative to me.
“We take our roles as means to survive or even thrive, while in other fields outside our responsibilities, we let our personality shine. ”
Where does this happen? Letting our personalities shine?
“If people stick to their principles that are totally opposite of mine, I’d still have respect for them.”
Nobody sticks to their principles at a job. You can’t. Again, everyone’s playing a role. But the worst is the people who don’t know they’re playing a role and actually seem to believe the company bulls**t.
“But even in this unchangeable situation, you could still be STOIC:
1. Acknowledge it’s deeply wrong, totally unfair.
2. It’s out of your control, you can’t change the top layers of your work.
3. If you want to keep the job, you’ll have to do what’s told (or quit). Then do it mechanically and hold your inner peace.”
Well, yes, ultimately, there’s nothing else I can do.
“If we only do what makes us feel good all the time, we’re still ‘terrible twos”. 😀”
I rarely do what feels good. 🙂 Which is why when I do it, it feels so good.
“Very true that doctors are not God; but with 11 years of medical training and internship, they have more knowledge than we laymen, don’t they? If they and us all have to guess, who would guess more knowledgeably?”
I refuse to take that stance. I went to 3 different doctors during my medial issues and each gave me different options for treatment. Which was right? One got very belligerent with me about doing what she wanted. Horrible woman. Again, people have their limitations.
“Yes, money can “let you do SOME of whatever the hell you want to” — not buy level 10 Glimmer or love (your type)…. ”
Oh, no. Money cannot buy love, glimmer, attraction. Even, really, respect and friendship. Companionship, maybe.
“Were your mind free with LO or LO-lite while being with them❓”
I never considered myself “with them.” We weren’t a couple.
” What’s the degree of your anxiety in front of them or behind them❓ Moreover, you seem to have been chasing that totally non-carefree dynamic …”
I’m not sure what you mean. This has nothing to do with having money. One would still have the same issues if one had money, minus the tedious, time-sucking, soul-sucking need for a job. Which is huge. But that doesn’t mean all problems go away.
“I agree with you, considering that we have limerent “genes”. But my SO Self can say that although she can’t control her emotions, she can 💯 manage her actions based on logic, willpower, self-esteem, and self-love 💖!”
Yes, I agree with you. Only most limerents don’t want to control their actions. They want to chase the limerence.
“you need to prepare for the worst possibility that he might go chasing after someone (as a limerent), or encourage someone else chasing him (as a LO).”
I don’t want to prepare for that. That seems like getting involved with someone and expecting the worst.
“Physical attraction from both sides would wane soon or later; we all grown older, not younger. ”
Yes, but physical attraction is based on much more than just physical appearance.
“For me, It’s definitely not sapiosexual alone. LO5’s or LO6’s intelligence is impressive, but dry or “chilly” as you put it. It lacks warmth, earthiness, sensuality, savviness, sincerity, profound wisdom (pw)…. ”
Well, this is true. Intelligence doesn’t imply emotional intelligence. Or even basic common sense! 🙂
“You said you used to go out with a package, and I never had a package in my entire life. Mostly just brought my EYES, 👁️ 👁️, which some nameless male doctors would notice and speak to even I was in the ugliest patient gown 3 days ago …”
I don’t go out “with a package.” The package is my physical person. Which, yes, I spruce up. To an extent, depending on who I’m interacting with. Some days I do more sprucing than other days. Honey, I’m not young. I have to make some effort to compete! 🙂
“Yes, that’s what I would do with my new Glimmer, except I can’t walk away. I’ll instruct him and his partner, and watch them clumsily speak my native tongue. 😜 Ha, I’ll have more chances to “tease” the Glimmering dude. 😆”
When will you see them again?
“I don’t remember you said you’ve made enough efforts to kill the glimmer ; and LO-lite.”
I did. There were times I limited conversation to work, being cordial but not engaging; there were times I avoided him/backed away; there were times I was a bit chilly; there were times I ignored his flirtations.
“so it’s not super difficult to kill Glimmer for Romeo, despite he’s 19 yrs younger.”
This is the guy from about a year ago?
“I’ll let you know how I’ll manage this new low level glimmer!”
Yes!
“LO-lite sounds sneaky😈, but as a limerent I understand well why he could push your door open — your attractiveness was validated by a married man’s initiative❗️”
He’s not married. But I was sneaky, too. I was playing the same game he was.
” like LO-lite, who then actually also chased you for his own “entertainment”. I would NOT be anyone’s “entertainment” even if LO is a real God, who can offer level 11 sex, period‼️”
But didn’t I do the same thing? Didn’t I chase him for the way he made me feel?
“Why do you torture yourself with the word, “never”? No one can say/think “never” for anything❗️”
Because I know the stats! I’m like LaR. I feel this for someone maybe every 5 years. It’s not a common. And as I wrote, that person also has to be interested in me and do something about it. To have all these factors line up is not common. I’m just being realistic.
“Could you just focus on “here and now”one minute, an hour, then one day at time❓”
Yes. I need to do that.
“If your concept of love here is not limited to Eros/romance”
We’ve talked about this about 5 times. 🙂 It’s not.
“Oh, my dear Sis! Not everyone limerent is pining for their LO, few channeled their limerence energy into artistic creativity. Dante is one rarest example.”
Do you know for sure he wasn’t pining for her?
” It is from Wiki’s notion of Limerence, Dante serves as a positive example of Limerence because of his immortal book “Inferno”; the same with Raphael’s masterpiece (his LO, but his patron’s wife) “La Fornarina”; Berlioz’s “Symphonie Fantastique”….”
The LO as a muse. 🙂
“Do you know that are differences between “love addiction” and limerence?”
I think there might be a post on here about that. The definition of love addiction didn’t really resonate with me personally.
” Caveat: some guys would not answer your questions directly.”
True, or some may lie. I’m not interviewing/interrogating them. 🙂 Just a short conversation about what they’re looking for.
“Connecting anyone through apps is a form of “verbalize” it. Ideally, I don’t want to know I’m on date at all.”
Oh, I do. I want it clear we’re not hanging out as just friends.
“Because the definition of “friendship” nowadays is quite different from ancient Greek or Chinese one, without which qualities,”
Well, some people don’t want to blow up the friendship if they disclose. Or they don’t have the courage to say anything.
“I’d rather stay “Isolated”. Am I 5 in enneagram❓ 😊”
I think so. 🙂
“Yes, you, and anyone, can! I changed my entire career from IT/engineer to liberal arts field”
This is exactly what I mean.
“But Ashley is not aggressive or possessive, he’s a gentleman, which suits many women’s tastes.”
I’m going to quote Rhett Butler when he inadvertently overhears Scarlett disclose to Ashley in the library at Twelve Oaks and later talks to her alone. “You miss you are no lady … But ladies have never held any charm for me.”
Substitute the word “ladies” for “gentlemen” and you have my view on it! 🙂
“Because you were not a legalized SO”
I don’t see what that has to do with it. He was my SO and we were serious.
“I’m very masculine compared to some women.”
I can be when I have to be, as I’ve had to take care of myself. But for the most part, I’m pretty feminine.
“I grew up in the communist regime, you’ll see what I will do if some women makes an attempt to mentally/emotionally/physically trespasses into my territory”
It’s not my job to fend off women for my SO (and I don’t ever want to be put in that position). That’s his job, and if he’s having to fend them off, it’s because he’s encouraged them, so that’s an even bigger problem.
“I think with LwL wisdom and mental trainings, a), limerents CAN manage their actions, if not limerent emotions, when next LO hits; b), Highly alert limerents would unlikely slip into another limerence, after a glimmer hits; c), if one’s longing is removed, a limerent can’t slip into another limerence, while safely enjoying glimmering person.”
I think there’s some truth to this, but a limerent has to WANT to avoid becoming limerent.
“You are mistaken here! Integrating two is NOT killing either Marcia. It’s a brand new Union❗️ You would not miss either “partial Marcia” ‼️”
Well, maybe I can try to integrate her. Or allow the other part to come out in ways that don’t cause such “pains,” as you call them.
Miss Marcia,
“That’s a bit dismissive. Some people struggle with it their whole lives. If willpower is all it took, there would be no addicts. “
I never said that those addiction rehabs are unnecessary and everyone is strong enough to deal their own addiction on their own. Being treatable gives one POWER and OPTION to manage their own health or individual issues. Why many people like power? Just power to control/use others, but not the power to manage and better their own life? 🧐
Here comes a test and benefit of true friendship — if your friend is willing to manage (incurable) his/her addictions or some other personal problems, as a true friend, what are you going to do? And if s/he is not willing to make efforts, what are you going to do❓
Have you seen the movie “Farewell to My Concubine?” There is one memorable scene: the gay actor [played by the famous and beautiful gay actor: Leslie Cheung — committed suicide in 2003] got into cocaine addiction. So his lifetime heterosexual LO /his acting partner/ his best friend (married a woman in the movie) went to his home everyday and physically tied him to the bed, so he could not reach for the drug! After a couple of months (or a year?) , he was off the drug! That’s what I call — a real friendship‼️ It’s a very touching movie, I’m not spoiling the ending here…
“No, you don’t sound nihilistic. You don’t sound negative to me. “
There were moments in my life, particularly after reading some deep philosophical books (e.g. Sartre, Camus), I felt nihilistic, but never for long. If I physically feel unwell, tired, or over sleep, I would feel depressed w/o reasons. But then, I’d do something to pull myself out of the state. I never dared to sleep too long at a time — no more than 6.5/7 hours, which would trigger my low-grade depression (body first, then spirit).
“Where does this happen? Letting our personalities shine?
When we deal with people outside work, acquaintances, friends, family, service people, strangers encountering during the day…
“Nobody sticks to their principles at a job. You can’t. Again, everyone’s playing a role. But the worst is the people who don’t know they’re playing a role and actually seem to believe the company bulls**t.”
I was not talking about job environment. Job is a realistic “theater”, everyone inside plays a role, to get some benefits individually or collectively. But that’s not all of a whole person. Have you read Sartre’s “Nausea”? — his iconic novel, very short but one representative of his existentialism!
I was talking about people sticking to their principles in their ordinary life and daily living.
[But even in this unchangeable situation, you could still be STOIC:] “Well, yes, ultimately, there’s nothing else I can do.”
You can do nothing about the situation (outside your control), but you CAN DO SOMEthing about your REACTION to the situation — the essence of Stoicism! Epictetus sounded more “joyful”/peaceful in his slavery than you are as a “free” human being making your own living.
“I rarely do what feels good, which is why when I do it, it feels so good.“
Take more Hu 🍫, which is under your control and won’t play push-n-pull game with you! I saw that you’d take cocaine if you have an access. I would NOT touch it if it’s laid in my lap, period.
“I refuse to take that stance. I went to 3 different doctors during my medial issues and each gave me different options for treatment. Which was right? One got very belligerent with me about doing what she wanted. Horrible woman. Again, people have their limitations. “
Sorry to hear that you got very bad lucks! A dear friend had the similar experience, too, almost died due to the wrong diagosis. But I still take my stance with majority of medical professionals. I had to call my doctor’s office today to ask a simple layman question, “what happens to my incision tape? Does it fall off on its own, or needs to be peeled off by your guys?” Neither Mom nor I had a common knowledge on this.
“Oh, no. Money cannot buy love, glimmer, attraction. Even, really, respect and friendship. Companionship, maybe. “
Money CAN NEVER BUY mental/emotional/total freedom — That’s the main point that applies to my several following paragraphs in my previous post.
[Were your mind free with LO or LO-lite while being with them] “I never considered myself “with them.” We weren’t a couple. “
It’s related to my above point 👀! It serves as an example that your mind is NOT free being with or without LO or LO-lite —— nothing to do with your wealth.
[What’s the degree of your anxiety in front of them or behind them
Moreover, you seem to have been chasing that totally non-carefree dynamic …” I’m not sure what you mean. This has nothing to do with having money. “
Exactly❗️ Again, it’s my point about the power/powerless of money in one huge area of human life — relations with other people.
“One would still have the same issues if one had money, minus the tedious, time-sucking, soul-sucking need for a job. Which is huge. But that doesn’t mean all problems go away.”
I was saying that even if you did not have to work as a billionaire, your mind will still not be free. You can do a lot of whatever you want, but can NEVER get true freedom that exists only in Mind. Stoicism can help to a large extent.
“Yes, I agree with you. Only most limerents don’t want to control their actions. They want to chase the limerence. “
So when it’s unreachable, they suffer and moan endlessly, instead of trying their might to change the course of their actions and emotions. After all, it’s a behavioral, not substance, addiction, like gambling — the worst in the East!
[you need to prepare for the worst possibility that he might go chasing after someone (as a limerent), or encourage someone else chasing him (as a LO).]
“I don’t want to prepare for that. That seems like getting involved with someone and expecting the worst. “
Precisely‼️ That’s Stoicism practice in friendship/romance❗️But such a practice does not have to take your merry spirit away while dating/getting involved, just keeping the possible worst quietly in mind — not a small possibility❗️ If your mind is prepared, when it happens, it won’t crash your heart/mind so drastically; when it does not occur, you’re more joyful than you have prepared for! It’s a psychology TRICK!
I just PLAYED such a trick— the Stoic preparations, WITH smiles and jokes, for my health dilemma/uncertainties for the past two/three months‼️ I saw/knew the red-flagged health report in late April, but chose to continue my merry chatting here and focusing on my scattered work. My worries did not curb down my spirit until the surgery was finalized; but it the nervousness didn’t last long! Since yesterday, I’ve been feeling truly over the Moon 🌙.
“Yes, but physical attraction is based on much more than just physical appearance.”
Very true! But if two partners are not adding something new into the new relational plant, it will die! So what’s one’s mental and spiritual nutrition to grow such a new plant (aside from the heated bedroom)❓
“Well, this is true. Intelligence doesn’t imply emotional intelligence. Or even basic common sense! “
I certainly have tasted plenty of such phenomenia! 🙄
“I don’t go out “with a package.” The package is my physical person. Which, yes, I spruce up. “
I did not spruce up at any given time, I didn’t know how and thought it’s superficial.
“To an extent, depending on who I’m interacting with. Some days I do more sprucing than other days. Honey, I’m not young. I have to make some effort to compete! “
I see that “sprucing”has varied degrees… Just look at Binoche: how awful when she had a heavy makeup on‼️
Ah, that popular word, “compete” 😀 as a whole “human package”❗️I never went out to compete with any other girls/women. I’m not a “product”, nor LO, BP, or anyone is “product” for competing, how UN-romantic! We’re supposed to be a helpless romantic or limerent! This post-Romanticism competing era is even worse, everything is for “sale” with an invisible price tag 🙄
“When will you see them again?”
Possibly on 7/31st. I feel good enough to go back tutoring now.
“I did. There were times I limited conversation to work, being cordial but not engaging; there were times I avoided him/backed away; there were times I was a bit chilly; there were times I ignored his flirtations.”
That’s hard-core efforts, my salute to you‼️ I never tried that hard except a couple of rude, on-face NC.
[“so it’s not super difficult to kill Glimmer for Romeo, despite he’s 19 yrs younger.”] [This is the guy from about a year ago? “
Yep. I tutored him 10 more months after killing that glimmer in exactly one month, and no LE ember ever lingered even after ET left. He’s the guy who said, “I like American movies because I’m an American!” 😳
[LO-lite sounds sneaky😈 , but as a limerent I understand well why he could push your door open — your attractiveness was validated by a married man’s initiative.] “He’s not married. But I was sneaky, too. I was playing the same game he was. “
Ah,… then two equal players playing seductive games. Then, you shouldn’t have got hurt much; but why you did❓or you didn’t, but just sad that LO-Lite stopped playing?
[” like LO-lite, who then actually also chased you for his own “entertainment”] “But didn’t I do the same thing? Didn’t I chase him for the way he made me feel?”
But you said that he treated you as an “entertainment” but you got more emotionally involved, wishing to be treated more than his “entertainment”? Do I remember wrong? 😑
“Because I know the stats! I’m like LaR. I feel this for someone maybe every 5 years. It’s not a common. And as I wrote, that person also has to be interested in me and do something about it. To have all these factors line up is not common. I’m just being realistic.”
That’s a reality, for you, me and many others, that’s a Stoic realization❗️ So what are we going to do about it? Does feeling depressed or despaired about it help our moods or spirit? Or should we just bravely face/embrace such a reality — “it’s most like going to happen at this point… “❓
[“Could you just focus on “here and now”one minute, an hour, then one day at time”] “Yes. I need to do that. “
That’s my daily practice, literally!
[Oh, my dear Sis! Not everyone limerent is pining for their LO, few channeled their limerence energy into artistic creativity. Dante is one rarest example.] “Do you know for sure he wasn’t pining for her?”
Dante lived in 1200s-1300s, who can be sure of his personal life? I’ll have to read his “inferno” to see how he described Beatrice; there were beautiful passages for her — spiritually transcendent, as I heard!
”The LO as a muse. “
YES! I think LO as a muse is very beautiful and inspiring… but LO is not going to be ever treated like a realistic human being. It happens a lot in artists’ and writers’ life. If the muse LO reciprocated, the artists’ LE would die soon, like in Berlioz’s case. When such a LO hangs in the sky unreachable, Masterpieces of lamenting or glorified arts are produced throughout the history — it’s a fact‼️
[“Do you know that are differences between “love addiction” and limerence?”] “I think there might be a post on here about that. The definition of love addiction didn’t really resonate with me personally.”
There is a typo 👆🏼; I meant to ask “Do you know WHAT are differences between “love addiction” and “limerence”. I’m not quite clear about their differences, but guess the former is a sort of “falling in love: from one to another but less intense; the latter lasts longer and hurt more intensely…
“True, or some may lie. I’m not interviewing/interrogating them. Just a short conversation about what they’re looking for.“
I’m not saying to interviewing/interrogating them (your short conversation sounds like an altered form of interview), but one needs to be observant and guide our vulnerable heart, so as it is not to be wounded so badly. I met several liars while in apps more than a decade ago.
“Oh, I do. I want it clear we’re not hanging out as just friends. “
I see that our goals for relationship are different, so I no more get on any apps.
“Well, some people don’t want to blow up the friendship if they disclose. Or they don’t have the courage to say anything.”
I have a hard time in understanding why a truthful disclosure of one’s deep emotions could/would hurt a real, close LTF 🧐
[“Yes, you, and anyone, can! I changed my entire career from IT/engineer to liberal arts field”] “This is exactly what I mean. “
I thought you said it’s not easy to switch a career just by taking a few courses and get a new certificate.
“I’m going to quote Rhett Butler when he inadvertently overhears Scarlett disclose to Ashley in the library at Twelve Oaks and later talks to her alone. “You miss you are no lady … But ladies have never held any charm for me.” Substitute the word “ladies” for “gentlemen” and you have my view on it! “
I think I’ve figured out where you stand in terms of ladies and gentlemen. I think I’d like someone between Butler and Ashley; you’re on Butler’s end completely.
[“Because you were not a legalized SO”] “I don’t see what that has to do with it. He was my SO and we were serious. “
A legal SO is granted with many legal, financial, “morality” rights/entitlements, thus their psychology differs from those “unofficial” SOs, who could be scorned or “dumped” at any given moment with or without a written note. Therefore, the former is treated or respected more seriously, although nowadays a “partner” is getting more equalized with a “wife/husband”.
“I can be when I have to be, as I’ve had to take care of myself. But for the most part, I’m pretty feminine.”
To think a bit more, I would say that I’m more masculine internally than most of women and a few men I’ve met. A part of me is a savor type for “damsel in need”, only damsel here could be female or male. My physique is small, but my mental strength is NOT….
“It’s not my job to fend off women for my SO (and I don’t ever want to be put in that position). That’s his job, and if he’s having to fend them off, it’s because he’s encouraged them, so that’s an even bigger problem. “
You’re right, It should NOT be SO’s job, but the majority of those Lim/LO partners/men are soft-spine or sissy, “I can’t tell her to do that… I just can’t…it would be too hurtful…” Some aggressive/transgressive LO or limerents are tougher/pusher than those sissy hubbies/partners, thus SO needs to get a hand on the matter‼️…
You said that every woman is on her own in the woods of love/limerence! Without a fight, you’d have more chances to lose your partner/husband! After getting those cheeky limrents off your physical territory, you can deal with the bigger mental problem with those cuckoo-head partners!
My Narc gf (who dated my ex-bro-in-law briefly) also shamelessly, boldly tried to seduce my SO with all sorts of Machiavellian tricks, and I kicked her out of my life for good! 😡 I tried very hard not to yell at her, or punch her face with my physical 🥊! She was suppose to be my good friend…
“I think there’s some truth to this, but a limerent has to WANT to avoid becoming limerent. “
🆎! We can’t get rid of our limerent tendency, so I would d say that a limerent has to WANT and TRY to avoid slipping into one limerence after another! Such an altered state of mind is so out of one’s control and painful, why would an informed LwL limerent would allow herself or himself to fall in another LE again⁉️
“Well, maybe I can try to integrate her. Or allow the other part to come out in ways that don’t cause such “pains,” as you call them.”
Yes, you can integrate two Marcias after digging out your stuff and let them and that Longing go! You’ll find/feel so much more peaces and joys, without anxiety or frequent heart-aching… I now know it’s possible❗️
******
[“I believe if a guy likes you enough, he will naturally be “in the headspace for something serious”, ] “No, it’s more about timing and less about the person. “
I disagree with that view. But I can no longer keep up with those modern relationship talks about a right timing and place. I’m simply too old-fashioned. Good lucks with your timing and right state of mind when you get on apps again.
[“They’re the way too buttery, gourmet cakes to watch! I’d never date any of them, too feminine and juvenile! ”] “But you like feminine! “
Not that much of femininity! 😵💫 Gee, I’d be drawn in their sugary water… My model actors are still Jereme Irons and Danial Day-Lewis!
“ I like cute guys who can dance. It’s my low brow taste. I just think they’re fun. I can appreciate them for what they are. “
I can highly appreciate BTS, too. I’d dance with them for hours through night, but will NOT date any of them! I don’t want to feel like sugar-powder scattered over my body 🤭 I would NOT even date Dimash (more serious and maturer than BTS members) although I’d let myself sunk or lost in his voice and songs…
“I’m so different. I can very rarely remember any of my dreams, and if I do, it’s just a quick scene or image.”
My dreams have been the windows through which to peek into my Unconscious, which have told me so much about important “unknowns” in my waking hours… They can be killers as well as saviors to my minds/emotions/spirits. If you have followed all my past posts regarding my dreams, you’d know what I mean here… I simply couldn’t ignore those remembered dreams 💭
[Like you, appreciating arts is very personal.]
“For me, it depends on what mood I’m in. Sometimes I’m in the mood for something fun (like BTS!). Sometimes I want to be moved (and read Anais Nin!). Sometimes I want to be challenged (and watch an Ingmar Bergman movie).”
What you just said here means “very personal”, which changes from time to time, depending on moods, timing, space/location, mental states, and many other situations. I can’t bear listening to opera arias or some Dimash’s songs when I feel light of joyful… The same goes with books and movies.
“For a bit, I was kind of irked/disappointed by the guy I dated a couple of times, but I’m not anymore. I’m over the whole thing. “
Very good! 😊
“Oh … the one hookup I had (and yes, we talked about it being a hookup right from the start –both of us were on the same page, which I appreciated ) … he reappeared out of nowhere the other day. Texted me. And I feel nothing.”
Feeling “nothing” is even better! 👍
“Hopefully, when I return to the catalogue dating, I can be as detached to the outcome. “
That’s the MAIN POINT I’ve been horning here: 🔊 put in whatever efforts you deem appropriate, but keep detached to the outcome, or even prepare for the worst one — being Stoic is putting an emotional shield over you while still bravely matching into the dating “battle field” like a real soldier 🤺 ❗️
“But, obviously, I was nowhere near as into the hookup as LO-lite … so how could the “bedroom performance” of the hookup be anything but ok ?”
Exactly, I’m with you here❗️ Hookup men can NEVER be compared to ex LO or ex LO-lite!
“I didn’t really enjoy working even when I had a career-type job. There were bits and pieces of it I found fulfilling, but overall I disliked having to do it every day, all day, feeling trapped by having to be somewhere at a certain time every day, etc. “
Well, when you’re truly care 🆓, it’s scary, haunting and empty inside. One needs to care about something or someone in life, trust me on this‼️
“I’m sure you get good reviews! You seem to care about your students.”
Part-time faculty members usually don’t get on those published rating sites. I do care about my students’ real learning (not just for grades), and get frustrated or upset when they don’t make efforts or slow-minded… My patience always gets tested here…
“Oh, I don’t like the job and I’m as SOOOO happy when my shift is over but I’m not unpleasant during my time at work. “
That’s a hundred times better than Epictetus! Please keep our Stoicism founder in mind next time when you feel resented about your stupid tasks…
[“Armand Assante is like Clark Gable, your professional! ” “Yes. Like Gable, he has “that thing.” ]
I spotted him out for you immediately this time.
“He exudes sexual energy.”
Not to me! only a rough, wild animal nature.
“Or she was playing him. “
I’ve felt sorry for Napoleon, who fell so deeply for her! What a romantic emperor — unthinkable/ 🆎 impossible in any Chinese emperors — all had hundreds of beautiful concubines.
”He wanted to smell her pheromones. “
You said it’s Napoleon asked his soldiers not to wash… shouldn’t it be “he wanted her to smell his pheromones”?
“You cover them up with scented soaps and perfumes. And scent is a big part of the sensual experience, for lack of a better wording. “
Totally agreed‼️ Then wash the body daily and put seductive perfume on! I can easily glue to a perfumed body for hours if not days… I’ve got a half of a dog’s👃 (mentioned before) so I’m extremely sensitive to BO 😨….
“Not necessarily, but you don’t think people always marry their soulmates, do you? “
Of course, not! That’s my point that Napoleon or Burton could find other women to love and marry; it’s not so unimaginable that other women would marry them for power, money, love, or whatever after Josephine and Taylor left.
”They were in and out of each others’ lives until he died. According to Taylor, he died (he was married to another woman at the time) and she flew to England for some kind of memorial. When she got home to Los Angeles, there was a letter from him waiting for her. Can you imagine? He did not know he was going to die. Just went to bed one night with a bad headache and never woke up. She wouldn’t reveal exactly what was in the letter, but from what she implied, it doesn’t sound like he’d gotten over her. “
This story is indeed sad!
”Having a wife and having a soulmate can be two different things. “
Totally agree! I’d prefer to have a soulmate than a husband, if only given one choice out of the two.
“Bergman and Hepburn are a bit too virginal/chaste for me (at least their personas). “
Well, someone has to be virginal/chaste if wild/aggressive ones exist; it’s a matter of duality. I heard that Hepburn was not interested in sex, so…
“I like Garbo a lot. She fascinates me. Both on screen and in how she lived her life. Talk about someone who could play a limerent on screen! And she was sooo good on screen at conveying so much by seemingly doing almost nothing. Maybe just a shift of her eyes.”
She has such a commanding/penetrating presence for me… so mysterious and seemingly knowing… strong on the surface yet vulnerable inside… I feel I can relate to her much more than Bergman or Hepburn. Which movies did Garbo play a limerent well?
Miss Snow,
Our posts are getting a bit long, so I cut some of this. Hope you don’t mind.
“Being treatable gives one POWER and OPTION to manage their own health or individual issues. ”
Yes, but sometimes people are never able to manage it. I don’t think it’s as simple as “get control of your mind/manage your life.” I’m not an addiction specialist. I can’t tell you why some people are able to stop drinking/taking drugs and never do it again and some people struggle and some people are fine for a while and then start back up.
“if your friend is willing to manage (incurable) his/her addictions or some other personal problems, as a true friend, what are you going to do?”
If they’re managing them, I don’t think I’d need to do anything ?
“And if s/he is not willing to make efforts, what are you going to do❓”
It would depend on a lot of factors. Is this person’s inability to make efforts affecting me and the friendship? If so, I might have to walk. Idk.
“So his lifetime heterosexual LO /his acting partner/ his best friend (married a woman in the movie) went to his home everyday and physically tied him to the bed, so he could not reach for the drug! After a couple of months (or a year?) , he was off the drug! That’s what I call — a real friendship‼️ ”
No, I would not do that, and I don’t consider that a real friendship. That’s co-dependence and enmeshment. It’s too much and too much to ask for.
There’s being supportive — driving someone to rehab, for example, or checking on them to see how they are doing — and there’s doing the work for them. I can’t and won’t do the work for them.
“When we deal with people outside work, acquaintances, friends, family, service people, strangers encountering during the day…”
That’s true. To an extent. Although I still feel I’m repressing parts of myself.
“You can do nothing about the situation (outside your control), but you CAN DO SOMEthing about your REACTION to the situation — the essence of Stoicism! Epictetus sounded more “joyful”/peaceful in his slavery than you are as a “free” human being making your own living.”
I’m not a fan of working. I don’t really like it. 🙂
“Take more Hu 🍫, which is under your control and won’t play push-n-pull game with you! ”
Oh, my dear. Eating chocolate is soooo NOT what I’m talking about. That’s hardly an indulgence. 🙂
“I saw that you’d take cocaine if you have an access.”
I have taken it, although it’s been years, but I’m not going to go out looking for it. It would have to fall into my lap.
“But I still take my stance with majority of medical professionals. I had to call my doctor’s office today to ask a simple layman question, “what happens to my incision tape? Does it fall off on its own, or needs to be peeled off by your guys?” Neither Mom nor I had a common knowledge on this.”
Well, of course they have more training. I’m just saying to be your own advocate. Do your research. Ask questions, and if the doctor won’t answer your questions and gives you attitude because you are questioning them, get another doctor. As I wrote, they are people with their own limitations.
“Money CAN NEVER BUY mental/emotional/total freedom — That’s the main point that applies to my several following paragraphs in my previous post.”
Yes, but it can buy you physical freedom, which is huge.
“So when it’s unreachable, they suffer and moan endlessly, instead of trying their might to change the course of their actions and emotions. After all, it’s a behavioral, not substance, addiction, like gambling — the worst in the East!”
There’s definitely a behavioral component with drinking/gambling/drugging.
But what’s interesting about limerence is that most of the limerents don’t really want their LOs, anyway. They just want to hold onto them in their minds. Limerence is a curious thing.
“But such a practice does not have to take your merry spirit away while dating/getting involved, just keeping the possible worst quietly in mind — not a small possibility❗️ If your mind is prepared, when it happens, it won’t crash your heart/mind so drastically; when it does not occur, you’re more joyful than you have prepared for! It’s a psychology TRICK!”
Gotcha. Makes sense.
Although I don’t know how well it works once you get seriously involved with someone. As people get dependent on one another. If things don’t work out, it’s natural to be crushed. And what’s the point of getting seriously involved if you’re not going to let your guard down and have some level of dependence? (I know you’re going to disagree. :))
“My worries did not curb down my spirit until the surgery was finalized; but it the nervousness didn’t last long! Since yesterday, I’ve been feeling truly over the Moon 🌙.”
I’m really glad for you about the outcome!
“Very true! But if two partners are not adding something new into the new relational plant, it will die! So what’s one’s mental and spiritual nutrition to grow such a new plant (aside from the heated bedroom)❓”
You focus on lot on the mental stuff, and I do agree that it’s important. But I’d say the couple has to continue to be in tune emotionally. Another big factor.
“I did not spruce up at any given time, I didn’t know how and thought it’s superficial.”
You do know that in EVERY image you showed me of Binoche … she’ s wearing makeup. Not just that one where she’s heavily made up. She is sprucing up her package. It looks natural, but she has make up on and her hair is done and she’s wearing flattering clothes. Nothing wrong with that.
“I see that “sprucing”has varied degrees… ”
Well, yeah. I meant … if there are going to be men there (versus just going out to a women’s group event), I might style my hair versus just pull it back.
“Ah, that popular word, “compete” 😀 as a whole “human package”❗️”
It ain’t called the sexual marketplace for nothing.
“That’s hard-core efforts, my salute to you‼️”
There were a couple of times I was downright mean, but then I realized I was being a little over the top. This is when I thought he wasn’t into me, and I realized I was punishing him for that.
“I never tried that hard except a couple of rude, on-face NC.”
I definitely felt like there were times it was necessary for me to put up some boundaries with him for my own sake so as not to delude myself that something was happening, but it wasn’t until I received his email that I was really in trouble.
“Yep. I tutored him 10 more months after killing that glimmer in exactly one month, and no LE ember ever lingered even after ET left.”
That’s good. You were able to manage it.
“Ah,… then two equal players playing seductive games.”
Lol. I guess. Yes. My point exactly from the earlier posts … the limerent is AWARE of what they are doing, and it ‘s a choice. (He has a partner; he’s just not married.)
“Then, you shouldn’t have got hurt much; but why you did❓or you didn’t, but just sad that LO-Lite stopped playing?”
I wasn’t expecting to get this hurt. I thought we’d just a have a nice time. I don’t think I’m capable of doing that with an LO.
“But you said that he treated you as an “entertainment” but you got more emotionally involved, wishing to be treated more than his “entertainment”? Do I remember wrong? 😑”
I wish he had expressed feelings to me versus expressing physical interest. Two different things.
“That’s a reality, for you, me and many others, that’s a Stoic realization❗️ So what are we going to do about it? Does feeling depressed or despaired about it help our moods or spirit? Or should we just bravely face/embrace such a reality”
I certainly understand what you are saying. I’m not quite there yet. I’m still really down about it. It’s not something right now I seem to be able to talk myself out of.
“YES! I think LO as a muse is very beautiful and inspiring… but LO is not going to be ever treated like a realistic human being. It happens a lot in artists’ and writers’ life. If the muse LO reciprocated”
Kind of similar to what we’ve discussed on this site. The limerent doesn’t really want to obtain their LO.
“There is a typo 👆🏼; I meant to ask “Do you know WHAT are differences between “love addiction” and “limerence”. I’m not quite clear about their differences, but guess the former is a sort of “falling in love: from one to another but less intense; the latter lasts longer and hurt more intensely…”
So … a quick Google search … love addition is wanting to be “in love” and have that feeling … limerence is more focused on one person and happens randomly in a person’s life. This is a VERY simplified explanation.
“I’m not saying to interviewing/interrogating them (your short conversation sounds like an altered form of interview),”
If the person feels ONE question — what are you looking for? — is an interview, then they aren’t the right person for me. (And, yes, I was asked this question while on the app. It’s not uncommon.)
“I met several liars while in apps more than a decade ago.”
Well, that’s true. But I’ve found that the guys who are just looking for sex will fall away pretty quickly if they don’t get it. The best course of action, as we have written before, it just to be patient and watch their behavior.
“I have a hard time in understanding why a truthful disclosure of one’s deep emotions could/would hurt a real, close LTF 🧐”
It’s blown up some of my friendships in the past. I felt a bit duped they didn’t disclose earlier or things just felt awkward or they fell away when the romance didn’t happen.
“I thought you said it’s not easy to switch a career just by taking a few courses and get a new certificate.”
It depends on the career switch and what your background is. If you have a degree in dance, for example, and you want to be an engineer, yes, you will more than likely have several years of school in front of you.
“although nowadays a “partner” is getting more equalized with a “wife/husband”.”
That was my point. No, it’s not “equalized” in the legal sense. I wasn’t financially entwined with him and getting out of the relationship was much easier than if we had been married.
“To think a bit more, I would say that I’m more masculine internally than most of women and a few men I’ve met. ”
That’s one of the things I liked about LO lite. I didn’t have to take on a more masculine role with him, which I can do but I prefer the man to do it.
“but the majority of those Lim/LO partners/men are soft-spine or sissy, “I can’t tell her to do that… I just can’t…it would be too hurtful…””
This would turn me off. I’d have a hard time respecting someone who I thought of as spineless.
“Without a fight, you’d have more chances to lose your partner/husband! After getting those cheeky limrents off your physical territory, you can deal with the bigger mental problem with those cuckoo-head partners!”
I can only speak about that one instance and how I handled things, but I’m not going to fight for someone. If there’s someone else they’d rather be with, they should pursue that person.
(When I said I have to compete, I was joking a little bit, although I do think, in the beginning, as people are choosing partners, it is, in a sense, a competition, so put your best foot forward … but there’s ultimately nothing you can do if someone picks someone else.)
“My Narc gf (who dated my ex-bro-in-law briefly) also shamelessly, boldly tried to seduce my SO with all sorts of Machiavellian tricks, and I kicked her out of my life for good! 😡”
Oh, yeah, she had to go. That’s not a real friend.
“🆎! We can’t get rid of our limerent tendency, so I would d say that a limerent has to WANT and TRY to avoid slipping into one limerence after another! ”
I agree.
“Such an altered state of mind is so out of one’s control and painful, why would an informed LwL limerent would allow herself or himself to fall in another LE again⁉️”
The feelz! Feeling alive. As an escape, etc.
“I’d dance with them for hours through night, but will NOT date any of them! I don’t want to feel like sugar-powder scattered over my body 🤭 ”
Lol. I don’t see myself dating them. They’re half my age and … I’m not sure all of them are into women. I just think they’re cute.
“What you just said here means “very personal”, which changes from time to time, depending on moods, timing, space/location, mental states, and many other situations. ”
I agree. And sometimes you can reread a book later in life, for example, and experience it very differently than you did the first time.
“That’s the MAIN POINT I’ve been horning here: 🔊 put in whatever efforts you deem appropriate, but keep detached to the outcome, or even prepare for the worst one — being Stoic is putting an emotional shield over you while still bravely matching into the dating “battle field” like a real soldier 🤺 ❗️”
I’d say with the catalogue dating … this is the best course of action! 🙂
“I do care about my students’ real learning (not just for grades), and get frustrated or upset when they don’t make efforts or slow-minded… My patience always gets tested here…”
What do you do if they’re not making enough effort?
“I spotted him out for you immediately this time.”
Lol. I think he’s really sexy. BTS are cute. He’s sexy. Two different things.
“Not to me! only a rough, wild animal nature.”
Exactly! What would happen if you got alone with him in a room? 🙂 That’s the energy he gives off. (BTS does NOT give off that energy. :))
“You said it’s Napoleon asked his soldiers not to wash… ”
No. He wanted her not to wash.
“Then wash the body daily and put seductive perfume on!”
NO! No perfumes! No colognes!
“I can easily glue to a perfumed body for hours if not days… I’ve got a half of a dog’s👃 (mentioned before) so I’m extremely sensitive to BO 😨….”
I don’t recommend BO … but there’s a difference between meeting up with someone who has BO when you go into a room with them (not sexy) and someone who … er … sweats a little through events in the room.
“That’s my point that Napoleon or Burton could find other women to love and marry; it’s not so unimaginable that other women would marry them for power, money, love, or whatever after Josephine and Taylor left.”
True
“This story is indeed sad!”
I also thought it was extremely romantic. He never forgot her.
“Totally agree! I’d prefer to have a soulmate than a husband, if only given one choice out of the two.”
Me, too.
” I heard that Hepburn was not interested in sex, so…”
And that comes across on screen. Bergman, on the other hand, was embroiled in a real-life scandal. Left her child and husband for Italian director Robert Rossellini, which was considered extremely scandalous in 1950. She was pregnant by him. Even more scandalous. I did like her in “Hedda Gabler.” She was very good and I always thought she was beautiful.
“Which movies did Garbo play a limerent well?”
Well, Camille comes to mind right away.
On the flip side of that … She’s a complete femme fatale in “Flesh and the Devil.” The movie made her a star. It’s a silent picture from 1926. She’s so beautiful and the look in her eyes when she looks at John Gilbert (who became her real-life lover). OMG.
Miss Marcia,
“Our posts are getting a bit long, so I cut some of this. Hope you don’t mind.”
Not at all! Cutting short, cutting down, or cutting off is all fine. Please never feel obligated but respond only you feel like it and enjoy it, even our “agreement on disagreement”…
“Yes, but sometimes people are never able to manage it. I don’t think it’s as simple as “get control of your mind/manage your life.”
Well, send them all to North Korea or COO, and watch what would happen!
“I’m not an addiction specialist. I can’t tell you why some people are able to stop drinking/taking drugs and never do it again and some people struggle and some people are fine for a while and then start back up. “
Depend on their personality, social support, and other personal issues at the time of relapse, which have made many fall into limerence if not other substance abuses.
[“if your friend is willing to manage (incurable) his/her addictions or some other personal problems, as a true friend, what are you going to do?”] “If they’re managing them, I don’t think I’d need to do anything ?”
In my previous statement, I forgot a phrase, “if your friend is willing, BUT UNABLE, to manage his/her addictions or some other personal problems (like LE”), what are you going to do?”
“It would depend on a lot of factors. Is this person’s inability to make efforts affecting me and the friendship? If so, I might have to walk. Idk.”
So “me” is ahead of his/her drinking/over-eating problem (an example) and of the friendship?
”No, I would not do that, and I don’t consider that a real friendship. That’s co-dependence and enmeshment. It’s too much and too much to ask for. “
Where do your assessment “co-dependence and enmeshment” come from? The Limerent actor did not ask his LO to help him, but LO would not let His limerent slip into his total ruin. He volunteered his enforcement and finally saved his Lim-friend. LO was not codepend on his pet Limerent, he had his loving wife. It’s a very beautiful movie to watch.
So your friendship does NOT include beneficial, much needed acts of service to your close LTR friend?
“There’s being supportive — driving someone to rehab, for example, or checking on them to see how they are doing — and there’s doing the work for them. I can’t and won’t do the work for them. “
Lame, too lame! So you’d work for a sucking job for money but not able, meaningful “services” to your friends when they are in urgent need of them?
“To an extent. Although I still feel I’m repressing parts of myself. “
In what ways you think you’re still “repressing parts” of yourself? Why do you feel so?
“I’m not a fan of working. I don’t really like it. “
You know that there are people who enjoy their work/career, right? If you don’t have to work, what are you going to do with your sufficient money and time?
“Oh, my dear. Eating chocolate is soooo NOT what I’m talking about. That’s hardly an indulgence. “
I was teasing you! I haven’t had your kind of “indulgence” nor seek it. I don’t want to take a roller-coast rides either in amusement parks or in reality, just like I’d never take cocaine even if you pay me to do it.
“Yes, but it can buy you physical freedom, which is huge. “
Again, what are you going to do with your physical freedom, which does NOT bring anyone mental freedom?
“There’s definitely a behavioral component with drinking/gambling/drugging.”
Gambling does not “insert” anything literarily into the brain.
“But what’s interesting about limerence is that most of the limerents don’t really want their LOs, anyway. They just want to hold onto them in their minds. Limerence is a curious thing.”
Is this an observation you get from LwL? I’ve not been here as long as you are. I was/am not sure whether I would want ET as a realistic flawed person, if he were available. I certainly desired his surrogate parenthood first and EA later, and used my LE as a mood regulator most of the time.
“Although I don’t know how well it works once you get seriously involved with someone. As people get dependent on one another. “
If you take the word, “dependent on” out, and replace it with “relate to”, then you would not feel passive, worried or fearful. I assume you’re talking about the time when both parties mutually feel seriously involved, right?
Then, continue putting your best efforts into each other and the tango, While simultaneously still preparing for the possible worst — theoretically a hurricane can come anytime right before the harvest; is farmer going to stop working due to that possibility?
“If things don’t work out, it’s natural to be crushed. And what’s the point of getting seriously involved if you’re not going to let your guard down and have some level of dependence? (I know you’re going to disagree. :))”
Worry too far ahead again❗️ Not just I disagree, but I will 🔉 —
Your beautiful, matching tango partner could suddenly get sick, hit by a car, or walk away due to whatever reasons, are you going to stop dancing now or worry about it later when it happens? But the possiblity is always there‼️
Preparing and acknowledging the worst (- we’re all going to die, perhaps tomorrow) is NOT put some sort of guard up, it’s an insightful mental preparation. So when it happens, it will NOT crush you, although you’d feel very sad and go through mourning process. When it does NOT happen, you keep your beautiful tango as much as you can.
And please 📣 CUT OFF that detrimental, unhealthy word, “DEPENDENCE” (— you’re NO LONGER a baby/toddler in friendship/relationship) from all your relations; otherwise, you’d never have sufficient self-esteem and self-confidence. Mark my words here‼️
It’s not co-dependence, but mutual giving and taking with affection/passion, efforts, and progressive skills. Didn’t we just talk about indifference towards outcome while enjoy the journey⁉️
“You focus on lot on the mental stuff, and I do agree that it’s important. But I’d say the couple has to continue to be in tune emotionally. Another big factor.”
I should elaborate that my “mental stuff” includes emotional, psychological and spiritual stuff”, not just intellectuality. But physical connection alone would not strengthen emotional/mental/spiritual connections, such as those hookups or fwbs. 🙄
“You do know that in EVERY image you showed me of Binoche … she’ s wearing makeup. Not just that one where she’s heavily made up. “
Most images of Binoche I attached here are from movies… except a couple (at her apartment or signing her names in public events). I agree with you that I don’t know how she looks like without any makeup.
“Well, yeah. I meant … if there are going to be men there (versus just going out to a women’s group event), I might style my hair versus just pull it back. “
Nothing wrong with it at all! But what one says and how s/he says it makes a larger portion of the package….
“It ain’t called the sexual marketplace for nothing.”
I thought you want to get into relational marketplace, now only the word “sexual” exists?
“There were a couple of times I was downright mean, but then I realized I was being a little over the top. This is when I thought he wasn’t into me, and I realized I was punishing him for that.”
I was never mean to the idealized, surrogate parent. I pulled NC twice to “punish” ET for black lying to me about his pet LO/Limmie.
“I definitely felt like there were times it was necessary for me to put up some boundaries with him for my own sake so as not to delude myself that something was happening, but it wasn’t until I received his email that I was really in trouble. “
I can’t say what I would feel or do if I ever received a deceitful disclosure email from ET, like that of your LO-Lite.
“That’s good. You were able to manage it. “
There was little further effort involved to manage it, once that glimmer for Romeo was gone within a month. So I know for sure now that a glimmer does not necessarily lead one into limerence, one CAN kill it by analyzing it inside out and all around! Analysis is a powerful KILLER of all emotions!
[“Ah,… then two equal players playing seductive games.” …
“Then, you shouldn’t have got hurt much; but why you did? or you didn’t, but just sad that LO-Lite stopped playing?”]
“I wasn’t expecting to get this hurt. I thought we’d just a have a nice time. I don’t think I’m capable of doing that with an LO. “
That means you went to play games without an emotional shield on, besides some seductive weapons.
It’s also a result of Stoic absence! Expecting to get hurt due to whatever reasons in a relationship/friendship, especially in a LE, is a MUST mental preparation. If you do, you won’t feel crushed when it takes place; if you don’t, my dear, you’ve got your answer❗️
“I wish he had expressed feelings to me versus expressing physical interest. Two different things. “
Of course, they are two different things! I wished for that EA expression for ages, but got a proposal for an “alternative friendship” after first 4 years of LE! 😠 I was so shocked but immediate rejected it 😡 — I was/am not “a lady in waiting” in any forms‼️
“I certainly understand what you are saying. I’m not quite there yet. I’m still really down about it. It’s not something right now I seem to be able to talk myself out of. “
Hmm…. It sounds like a Waterloo Battle of getting a date/bf/BP is still there for you 😊, and you want to win it! Go for it❗️ But I want to ask you first: What are your best weapons for this battle? and Who is your actual enemy — desired catalogue men, invisible rival women, of YOURSELF (you and your old “stuff”)❓
Remember my Dear, Napoleon lost his last battle in Waterloo…
“Kind of similar to what we’ve discussed on this site. The limerent doesn’t really want to obtain their LO.”
Right! Artistic limerents just want a sky-rocketing Muse — an inspiration for their creative works.
“If the person feels ONE question — what are you looking for? — is an interview, then they aren’t the right person for me. (And, yes, I was asked this question while on the app. It’s not uncommon.)”
Isn’t it obvious what everyone is looking for in an app? Either hookup, LTR, or companionship. Yes, it is the first and a must question to ask!
“Well, that’s true. But I’ve found that the guys who are just looking for sex will fall away pretty quickly if they don’t get it. The best course of action, as we have written before, it’s just to be patient and watch their behavior.”
I was faster than you to decide: no glimmer? no 2nd date! (95% of time); I did not need to observe anything further… 😀
“It’s blown up some of my friendships in the past. I felt a bit duped they didn’t disclose earlier or things just felt awkward or they fell away when the romance didn’t happen. “
I didn’t and would not get offended or felt duped. Just telling them it’s not possible — I’m not interested. If they wanted to stay, okay; if not or unable, fine, too!
“That was my point. No, it’s not “equalized” in the legal sense. I wasn’t financially entwined with him and getting out of the relationship was much easier than if we had been married.”
That’s why I said that a legal SO feels securer, more “powerful” and has more to fight for than an unofficial SO. She has more “rights”to yell at her SO’s cheeky limerents or seductive LOs.
“That’s one of the things I liked about LO lite. I didn’t have to take on a more masculine role with him, which I can do but I prefer the man to do it.”
Is this about bedroom stuff again? Or something more emotional, mental and psychological? My masculinity excludes bedroom…
“This would turn me off. I’d have a hard time respecting someone who I thought of as spineless. “
Tell me how many men and women you find in LwL who have very strong/straight spines?
“I can only speak about that one instance and how I handled things, but I’m not going to fight for someone. If there’s someone else they’d rather be with, they should pursue that person.”
I was not talking about the situation when SO would rather be with his LO, but he is LO and those transgressive liemrents want to seduce him away from you as SO. What are you going to do in handling other sticky/aggressive limerents? let your SO/partner go without a fight⁉️
“(When I said I have to compete, I was joking a little bit, although I do think, in the beginning, as people are choosing partners, it is, in a sense, a competition, so put your best foot forward … but there’s ultimately nothing you can do if someone picks someone else.)”
That’s a very clear Stoic realization, why not keep it in mind all the time?
“The feelz! Feeling alive. As an escape, etc. “
That means those limerents still have unresolved old “stuff” within and need to resolve it first. Otherwise, limerence soon or later would make them suffer more on top of their old stuff.
“Lol. I don’t see myself dating them. They’re half my age and … I’m not sure all of them are into women. I just think they’re cute. “
I checked BTS’s photos today and realized that I do not like any of them, Jees, they’re so sissy! They all look shallow to me; they’re not Dimash.
“I agree. And sometimes you can reread a book later in life, for example, and experience it very differently than you did the first time. “
Exactly! We all evolve in many ways, that’s a beauty and hope of our imperfect life. Our mind, emotion, spirit can change/evolve for better or worse.
“What do you do if they’re not making enough effort?”
I’ll try to encourage them through material contents and teaching methods. If they still do not make enough effort, then I also give up and give them deserved grades. I’m not there to learn For them!
“Lol. I think he’s really sexy. BTS are cute. He’s sexy. Two different things. “
BTS look “spineless”, he’s animalistic; of course, two different things!
“Exactly! What would happen if you got alone with him in a room? “
Open the door and walk out. I’m not going to lay like a lamb with a wolf‼️
“That’s the energy he gives off. (BTS does NOT give off that energy. :))”
BTS gives off nothing much, but sugary scent, for 14 years old girls/boys.
[“You said it’s Napoleon asked his soldiers not to wash… ” No. He wanted her not to wash. ]
Consider they’re French who hate deodorants … 🤢
“NO! No perfumes! No colognes! “
I love them! Have you ever sit next to a Frenchman who does not use deodorant? I almost fainted 🤮 literally and changed to another seat across the isle.
“I don’t recommend BO … but there’s a difference between meeting up with someone who has BO when you go into a room with them (not sexy) and someone who … er … sweats a little through events in the room. “
Nope, nope, nope! 😓 I’m a smell/BO freak!
I can smell guys’ BO in a swimming pool and had to change the lane! I resisted a very nice man’s courtship, because of his strong BO even sitting across a dining table. 🤢
“I also thought it was extremely romantic. He never forgot her. “
Yes, it is very ROMANTIC in its sad end… 😢
“Bergman, on the other hand, was embroiled in a real-life scandal. Left her child and husband for Italian director Robert Rossellini, which was considered extremely scandalous in 1950. She was pregnant by him. Even more scandalous. I did like her in “Hedda Gabler.” She was very good and I always thought she was beautiful. “
I heard about her scandal. She’s a brave Lady Limerent — brave, independent, decisive, elegant and beautiful….
“Well, Camille comes to mind right away.”
I saw that one a long time ago, so sad. I like and remember her well in Queen Christina.
“On the flip side of that … She’s a complete femme fatale in “Flesh and the Devil.” The movie made her a star. It’s a silent picture from 1926. She’s so beautiful and the look in her eyes when she looks at John Gilbert (who became her real-life lover). OMG.”
I’m going to watch it tonight or tomorrow! 😃
Miss Snow,
“Where do your assessment “co-dependence and enmeshment” come from? ”
Because I can’t save anyone. You can’t force someone to stop the addictive behaviors. You can’t really force anyone to do anything. I will help them/be supportive in their effort to get better, but I can’t and won’t do it for them. Much like you are with your students who aren’t making enough effort.
“So your friendship does NOT include beneficial, much needed acts of service to your close LTR friend?”
Because what you described — tying someone to a bed every day for months on end — is not an act of service but an act of self-abnegation. People have their own lives and things to do.
That new friend I made recently calls me several times a week (which is a million times more than my other friends do). To say hello and check in but she also knows I’m going through a bit of a tough time now. So she’s supportive. But it’s not her job to get me better. That’s my job.
“Lame, too lame! So you’d work for a sucking job for money but not able, meaningful “services” to your friends when they are in urgent need of them?”
So what you’re saying is contradictory because you abhor the word dependence but you want someone to give up big chunks of time every day for months.
“In what ways you think you’re still “repressing parts” of yourself? Why do you feel so?”
I’m staying away from LO-lite. Whatever part he awakened.
“You know that there are people who enjoy their work/career, right?”
Yes, and I’m baffled by that. 🙂
“If you don’t have to work, what are you going to do with your sufficient money and time?”
I would read. I would write. Maybe travel. Join more social groups. Maybe volunteer.
“Gambling does not “insert” anything literarily into the brain.”
Oh, it most definitely does. It dings the parts of the brain that light up during intermittent reinforcement.
“Is this an observation you get from LwL?”
Have you read any posts? 🙂
“I was/am not sure whether I would want ET as a realistic flawed person, if he were available. ”
That’s my point. Most people want the fantasy, not the reality.
“If you take the word, “dependent on” out, and replace it with “relate to”, then you would not feel passive, worried or fearful.”
I don’t look at dependence as a bad thing. That person relies on me, I rely on them. Would be the same in a close friendship. Or a family relationship. You relied on your mother during your recovery. She relies on you for her care.
“While simultaneously still preparing for the possible worst — theoretically a hurricane can come anytime right before the harvest; is farmer going to stop working due to that possibility?”
Yes, there are no guarantees and anything can happen. It’s just not something I spend a lot of time focusing on.
Unless it’s a friendship! I’ve come to learn and accept those seem to change almost overnight. So I am …if not waiting for the change … not surprised by it. But that also means I no longer invest as much as I used to. I keep a bit of distance.
” Didn’t we just talk about indifference towards outcome while enjoy the journey⁉️”
In the early processes of dating, yes. You can’t really have expectations of people you don’t know well. And you’ll drive yourself crazy with all the false starts and abrupt stops and blips that turn out to be nothing.
“But physical connection alone would not strengthen emotional/mental/spiritual connections, such as those hookups or fwbs. 🙄”
ITA. There has to be more to it than that.
“But what one says and how s/he says it makes a larger portion of the package….”
Yes, of course. But they have to like the outer package to want to get to know the inner person. (I’m talking about dating here.)
“I thought you want to get into relational marketplace, now only the word “sexual” exists?”
It’s a generic term. Definition from the internet: “The sexual marketplace (SMP) encompasses everyone looking for sex or relationship and who can realistically meet or interact with each other. In the SMP people offer their sexual value (offer), compete with other members of the same gender, and seek and assess the sexual market value of potential mates from the opposite gender (demand).”
“I can’t say what I would feel or do if I ever received a deceitful disclosure email from ET, like that of your LO-Lite.”
I didn’t think it was deceitful. I thought it took guts. I thought it was brave. He didn’t know how I was going to respond.
“That means you went to play games without an emotional shield on, besides some seductive weapons.”
I don’t know what means.
“If you do, you won’t feel crushed when it takes place; if you don’t, my dear, you’ve got your answer❗️”
I think this is another topic we’ll have to agree to disagree about.
“I wished for that EA expression for ages, but got a proposal for an “alternative friendship” after first 4 years of LE! 😠 I was so shocked but immediate rejected it 😡 — I was/am not “a lady in waiting” in any forms‼️”
I’m just not sure why you were shocked. You were telling him a lot of personal stuff and did so for a while. So he assessed you wanted something.
“Hmm…. It sounds like a Waterloo Battle of getting a date/bf/BP is still there for you 😊, and you want to win it! ”
I was referring to LO-lite. I’m not able to talk myself out of the hole I’ve fallen into because of him. Not right now, anyway.
“But I want to ask you first: What are your best weapons for this battle? and Who is your actual enemy — desired catalogue men, invisible rival women, of YOURSELF (you and your old “stuff”)❓”
I don’t really have weapons. I’ll just keep my expectations low and probably get on the apps for a month and then take a break (like I did the last time).
Men are always the enemy. 🙂
“Right! Artistic limerents just want a sky-rocketing Muse — an inspiration for their creative works.”
I’m just very different. I’ve been writing about LO-lite (and the dating app stuff) and consummation has given me much more to write about. I’m not talking about descriptions of sex but an expansion of feelings and … understanding, for lack of a better word.
“Isn’t it obvious what everyone is looking for in an app? Either hookup, LTR, or companionship. Yes, it is the first and a must question to ask!”
Yes! But those are very different things. All I’m saying is that if someone says they’re looking for an fwb (and one guy did say that while we were messaging), I probably shouldn’t go out with him. I’m not looking for an fwb.
“I was faster than you to decide: no glimmer? no 2nd date! (95% of time); I did not need to observe anything further… 😀”
I felt some level of glimmer with the guy I went out with. And I thought the conversation went well on the first date. That is my criteria for a second date. Some level of glimmer. I’m not waiting for a 9/10. That’s too high of an expectation, IMO.
“I didn’t and would not get offended or felt duped. ”
I talked with them in a way I wouldn’t have if I had known they had feelings beyond friendship. I told them things I otherwise wouldn’t have. So I did feel a bit duped.
“She has more “rights”to yell at her SO’s cheeky limerents or seductive LOs.”
As I wrote, I don’t want to do that. Because if the SO has a bunch of LOs or admirers circling around who wont’ go away … they’ve encouraged those people and/or already done something with them. It’s his job as a GROWN MAN to turn down other options.
“Is this about bedroom stuff again? Or something more emotional, mental and psychological? ”
We had some conversations in which he’s told me some personal stuff, although I don’t look at those personal revelations as “masculine” or “feminine.”
I was referring to the bedroom when I wrote about masculinity.
“Tell me how many men and women you find in LwL who have very strong/straight spines?”
I’m not looking for guys on LwL. 🙂
“I was not talking about the situation when SO would rather be with his LO, but he is LO and those transgressive liemrents want to seduce him away from you as SO. What are you going to do in handling other sticky/aggressive limerents? let your SO/partner go without a fight⁉️”
Yep. Go to it. The SO should have nipped this in the bud on their own. It should NEVR have gotten to the level where I even have to know about it. If they employed your techniques of squashing their glimmer.
“That means those limerents still have unresolved old “stuff” within and need to resolve it first. Otherwise, limerence soon or later would make them suffer more on top of their old stuff.”
Yes. That’s what causes limerence. Our “stuff.”
“I checked BTS’s photos today and realized that I do not like any of them, Jees, they’re so sissy! They all look shallow to me; they’re not Dimash.”
I thought they looked similar to Dimash when I did a quick Google search of him. I like Jimin, and he had a similar haircut to Dimash.
“I’ll try to encourage them through material contents and teaching methods. If they still do not make enough effort, then I also give up and give them deserved grades. I’m not there to learn For them!”
And that is what I would do for a friend with addiction issues. I can’t do it FOR them.
“BTS gives off nothing much, but sugary scent, for 14 years old girls/boys.”
I never claimed to be mature. 🙂
“Have you ever sit next to a Frenchman who does not use deodorant? I almost fainted 🤮 literally and changed to another seat across the isle.”
I’m not talking about not using deodorant or soap.
I’m saying … lay off the heavily scented soaps, perfumes and colognes. You mask your natural pheromones.
“Nope, nope, nope! 😓 I’m a smell/BO freak!”
There’s a difference between BO and sweat, the latter of which one gets … through exertion. 🙂
“I heard about her scandal. She’s a brave Lady Limerent — brave, independent, decisive, elegant and beautiful….”
Vivian Leigh did the same thing when she left her husband and daughter for Laurence Olivier. I just don’t know how the kids fared in all of this. I think Olivier had kids, too, with the wife he left.
“I like and remember her well in Queen Christina.”
I’ve seen bits and pieces of that. The male lead in Queen Christina is the same one in Flesh and the Devil. Three years after Queen Christina (they were no longer together but still friends), he died. He was only in his 30s. He drank himself to death.
If you watch Flesh and the Devil, he seems a bit hammy to me. He overacts. But she is sooo subtle but conveys so much.
Miss Marcia,
“Because I can’t save anyone. You can’t force someone to stop the addictive behaviors. You can’t really force anyone to do anything. “
Please read the hypothetical conditions I put in my previous post — when you CAN/ABLE to help, when your friend (let’s say LO-Lite) need your help in an adversity (not hard-core drug addict0, claiming as their CLOSE friend, WHAT are you are going to DO or at least to TRY? 🧐
“I will help them/be supportive in their effort to get better, but I can’t and won’t do it for them. Much like you are with your students who aren’t making enough effort. “
You haven’t even tried, how do you know you “can’t”? And are you equaling my STUDENTS (assigned to) to my CLOSE FRIENDS (by choice)? 😮
“Because what you described — tying someone to a bed every day for months on end — is not an act of service but an act of self-abnegation. People have their own lives and things to do.”
Yes, WILLING act of service, self-abnegation is integrated in in my concept of TRUE, SOLID friendship, which both sides are willing/volunteering to give without being requested, particularly when it NOT required. If they expect me to give or take for granted that I’d give, then I will CHOOSE not to give. It’s a two-way traffic. Haven’t you heard that cliche: adversities build true friendship❓
“That new friend I made recently calls me several times a week (which is a million times more than my other friends do). To say hello and check in but she also knows I’m going through a bit of a tough time now. So she’s supportive. But it’s not her job to get me better. That’s my job.“
Your friend is demonstrating the friendship as I just defined, within her capacity. No one requires her to call you several times a week, but she did in consideration of your needs. That’s a form of “self-abnegation”.
Should she have some needs, let’s hypothetically say she suddenly got into heavily drinking due to some emotional/mental stress, (not addict yet but affecting her work or health), would you give her all the help (in time, efforts) she adjustably needs❓ Of course, it’s her job ultimately to get better, but your help would assist her a great deal or shorten her healing time, will you willingly help?
“So what you’re saying is contradictory because you abhor the word dependence but you want someone to give up big chunks of time every day for months. “
No, I’m not contradictory at all! You’re twisting my original words, please look up my previous paragraphs. I would not DEMAND or REQUEST my friends to sacrifice their time to help me; but as TRUE FRIENDs, they will provide WILLINGLY. And when I see they are in some needs that are within my capacity, I WILL also WILLINGLY provide, sacrifice time or whatever I have to help them out! Please leave the word, “DEPENDENCE” out of the acts of service or labor division.
I think we should stop here about our discussion on what a deep, solid friendship means; evidently it means different things from person to another. My Bars for a true, solid friendship, from which I’ve benefited from and given to a few COO folks, is vastly different from the majority of Westerners. I don’t require anyone to agree with or follow standards.
“I’m staying away from LO-lite. Whatever part he awakened.”
That’s really hard, I know what it is like… *sigh*. A lot of times, we just can’t get rare stuff we so desire in this world… it’s a default of life. 🙂
“Yes, and I’m baffled by that. “
Because whatever they do, it’s a part of their calling/identity, and their career/work brings a great deal of fulfillment to their existence. Those who can’t enjoy their job/career are really unlucky, imp. 😟
“I would read. I would write. Maybe travel. Join more social groups. Maybe volunteer. “
It can (may not) get boring or feeling empty inside without a sense of responsibility.
“Oh, it most definitely does. It dings the parts of the brain that light up during intermittent reinforcement. “
Gambling does not inject any chemical substance, like alcohol or drugs, into one’s brain. “Dinging” effect happens to limerence, too. It’s still behavioral.
“Have you read any posts? “
I read some, not all. Some limerents’ (especially partnered ones), behaviors repulsed/disguested me, which led their own sufferings…
[“I was/am not sure whether I would want ET as a realistic flawed person, if he were available. ”]
“That’s my point. Most people want the fantasy, not the reality. “
I did want ET’s friendship, that’s why my LE lasted the 2nd half after I learned about his flaws as a realistic man, not the Phantom anymore.
“I don’t look at dependence as a bad thing. “
I DO! Especially mental and emotional ones! Actively giving and receiving affections is NOT dependence — not walking with a crutch🩼 ❗️
“That person relies on me, I rely on them. Would be the same in a close friendship. “
Physical dependency — division of labors is fine; e.g. I can’t drive, and the other side is poor with IT stuff. Emotional and mental dependency is UNHEALTHY in close friendship or LTR. I’ve witnessed tons of such unhealthy behaviors in unhappy marriage.
I also talked with my (American) therapist gf about how she managed her divorce and new relationships and about what are common relationship downfalls for some of her clients. (she’s the one who introduced to Vipassana retreat, which she’s gone far more times than I did).
“Or a family relationship. You relied on your mother during your recovery. She relies on you for her care. “
It’s not emotional or mental dependency; It’s physical labor division, and temporary. I’ve already dismissed all Mom’s help by yesterday, exactly one week, instead of 4 weeks as I was told. Time-limited physical help is different from emotional and mental dependency, in the dictionary of mental health professionals.
“Yes, there are no guarantees and anything can happen. It’s just not something I spend a lot of time focusing on.”
Well, if one does not “labor” enough, how could one expect to reap a harvest? Are you saying that if you tango (LTR), you would not practice and rehearse regularly with your effort, and yet expect excellent performance that is supposed to fulfill yourself and your partner? 😀 (exclude those app men!)
“Unless it’s a friendship! I’ve come to learn and accept those seem to change almost overnight. So I am …if not waiting for the change … not surprised by it. But that also means I no longer invest as much as I used to. I keep a bit of distance.”
Yes unfortunately I also experienced what you described here as well. But my Stoic practice has helped me not feel overly disappointed. I’ll still invest my time and effort in a potential friendship with 1-5% hope, which itself is fulfilling, but expect nothing. If it fruits a little bit, I’d consider it as bonus of life.
“In the early processes of dating, yes. You can’t really have expectations of people you don’t know well. And you’ll drive yourself crazy with all the false starts and abrupt stops and blips that turn out to be nothing.”
ITA with you here; but I don’t go to the dating world anymore. As I repeated many times, I removed the word, “dating” out of my life. Befriending both men and women is a loose goal.
[“But what one says and how s/he says it makes a larger portion of the package….”]
“Yes, of course. But they have to like the outer package to want to get to know the inner person. (I’m talking about dating here.)”
I was/am talking about just making friends. I don’t know your physical package, I’m still talking with you right now, even if you have a messy hair, swollen eyes, and haven’t showed for 3 days. 🤭
“It’s a generic term. Definition from the internet: “The sexual marketplace (SMP) encompasses everyone looking for sex or relationship and who can realistically meet or interact with each other. In the SMP people offer their sexual value (offer), compete with other members of the same gender, and seek and assess the sexual market value of potential mates from the opposite gender (demand).”
Again, in dealing with friendship/relationship, I do NOT go to SMP marketplace and am very content to be alone at home; befriending with a bunch of LwL 👻 👻 👻 is fine.
“I didn’t think it was deceitful. I thought it took guts. I thought it was brave. He didn’t know how I was going to respond. “
I used the word “deceitful” was because you thought he was disclosing his feelings for you, but in the end, he just wanted to treat you as an “entertainment”. For such a goal, of course, he had to take some risks. A COO idiom goes, “If you do not enter the tiger’s den, you cannot catch the tiger’s cub.” ~~ “Nothing ventured, nothing gained.”
[“That means you went to play games without an emotional shield on, besides some seductive weapons.”]
“I don’t know what means.”
That means you don’t wear an emotional shield to protect your own heart if the other side purposefully dally with your feelings for his ego — hook yours without giving his. Here my dear, you need Stoic mentality to guard your heart when you venture out to play the game. Myself never played seduction games — not even once in my life❗️
“I’m just not sure why you were shocked. You were telling him a lot of personal stuff and did so for a while. So he assessed you wanted something. “
I expected/envisioned him as a red-clacked Catholic Bishop for me to safely confess my cptsd and other stresses, and was shocked by the Bishop’s proposal to have a causal PA 😳 ‼️ That’s my naive, stupid Limerence delusion 😏 🔨
[“Hmm…. It sounds like a Waterloo Battle of getting a date/bf/BP is still there for you , and you want to win it! ” ]
“I was referring to LO-lite. I’m not able to talk myself out of the hole I’ve fallen into because of him. Not right now, anyway. “
I misunderstood you here and thought it’s your plan for next dating period. So now you know you’ve fallen in a hole and still wish to stay there for a bit longer❓🤔
“I don’t really have weapons. I’ll just keep my expectations low and probably get on the apps for a month and then take a break (like I did the last time).”
If one plans to venture into that SMP, shouldn’t one have some physical, mental “weapons”? Having low or zero expectation is a Stoic way to approach it for sure! But if I were you, I’d worry about my old “stuff”, which could be detected by the other side.
“Men are always the enemy. “
If this attitude is somehow exuded from you, how could you expect them to be ever attracted by you for long and willing to tie a friendship/LRT with you? 😀 I think they can be our friends, if you sincerely treat them like a good friend (excluding sex).
“I’m just very different. I’ve been writing about LO-lite (and the dating app stuff) and consummation has given me much more to write about. I’m not talking about descriptions of sex but an expansion of feelings and … understanding, for lack of a better word.”
Did you feel inspired, uplifted 🫠 , expanded, or renewed while writing these stuff? Something must have motivated you to write down the experiences, right? 🤔
“I felt some level of glimmer with the guy I went out with. And I thought the conversation went well on the first date. That is my criteria for a second date. Some level of glimmer. I’m not waiting for a 9/10. That’s too high of an expectation, IMO. “
In the past, without 5 or 6 glimmer, I would not go to a 2nd date, period. I did not have much patience. I trust my laser-sharp 👁️ in the first 5-10 seconds of meeting anyone, men or women‼️
“I talked with them in a way I wouldn’t have if I had known they had feelings beyond friendship. I told them things I otherwise wouldn’t have. So I did feel a bit duped. “
Understand. I would feel duped, too.
“As I wrote, I don’t want to do that. Because if the SO has a bunch of LOs or admirers circling around who wont’ go away … they’ve encouraged those people and/or already done something with them. It’s his job as a GROWN MAN to turn down other options. “
You can’t make such assumptions. Let’s hypothetically say, your SO is decent and very attractive in appearance and personality. Without doing or encouraging anything , a couple of limerents couldn’t help glimmer at him. Good limerents back up; but one or two daring, transgressive limerent just tries to seduce him away from you, despite his efforts to avoid them. He’s still a flesh & blood man and has his vulnerability or hard time to push away those 9-tailed female foxes 🦊
Then, as his loving and beloved SO, what are you going to do or try? Let him to be tempted away without helping him, without a fight with the 🦊 ? If you don’t even fight for his Love, how could he believe you really care about his heart that much! 🙄 Haven’t you seen men fight with each other for their beloved women?
“I was referring to the bedroom when I wrote about masculinity.”
Whether professional or masculine, a man should treat a woman like a goddess in bedroom, which would then empower her Millennium Falcon and make her sexuality blossom🌸. Most of hookups or fwbs out there were very disappointing ….🫤 Please don’t ask me to elaborate on this… 😊
[“Tell me how many men and women you find in LwL who have very strong/straight spines?”]
“I’m not looking for guys on LwL. “
No limerent finds/comes to LwL looking for dates/fwb/relationship but some answers or solutions to their limerence troubles; otherwise, they could not even find his site! I did not locate it back in 2021 when I was searching online help for my bewildering LE symptoms. 😵💫 🌀
I was saying that LwL is an invisible, miniature of the real world. Looking at how those limerents’ behaviors in their reality, we could detect and understand some men’s/women’s spineless actions in our own environment.
Based on DrL, 50-60% of population has experienced limerence or they are limerents, active or in dormant. So many limerents live around or among us without our or their own knowledge. Many don’t know LwL or what limerence means.
“Yep. Go to it. The SO should have nipped this in the bud on their own. It should NEVR have gotten to the level where I even have to know about it. If they employed your techniques of squashing their glimmer.”
Look at my above paragraphs! My xSO was not in limerent tribe, but he’s still “spineless” in pushing his old flame away when we hardly married for a month! In order to save our new marriage, I had to yell at her in person and fire that legal complaint for his another fling! 😠 Then they disappeared for good.
By the way, I agree with your message to LaR that a female SO can detect a lot from their limerent SO, even just by tone of his voice when they casually talk about their LO. To assume SO could not sense those male SO’s affection for LO, is naive and ignorant. 😀
“That’s what causes limerence. Our “stuff.””
And if not totally removing /eradicating our “stuff”(-that Longing), we’re prone to fall into limerence again and again…. LO-lite after LO…
“I thought they looked similar to Dimash when I did a quick Google search of him. I like Jimin, and he had a similar haircut to Dimash.”
Their physical features or hair cut might be similar to Dimash, but inside their EYES are vastly different world. BTS are light, shallow, vain and chessy, Dimash is much more serious, spiritual, sincere and sentimental. Due to his age, of course, he can’t look as deep or manly like Jeremy Irons or Daniel Day-Lewis.
I checked BTS’s singing today, and they are 100 times worse than Dimash❗️The former’s singing is on the tip of their throat — no volume or depth; the latter is from his heart, backbone and even his entire being, covering 6 octaves! There is no comparison between two groups, period‼️
“And that is what I would do for a friend with addiction issues. I can’t do it FOR them. “
I’m surprised to hear your comparison between one’s students, who refuse to make effort to learn, to one’s close friends, who are making efforts to battle with his/her addiction issues and who can be helped by your capacity and caring heart…
“BTS gives off nothing much, but sugary scent, for 14 years old girls/boys.” I never claimed to be mature.
Lady Marcia, by the official record here, we all know you’re not 14 or 24 year old in your maturity. 😃
“I’m saying … lay off the heavily scented soaps, perfumes and colognes. You mask your natural pheromones. “
I never used the word, “heavily”. In general I chose adjectives very carefully (spent a lot of time in editing, try to be PC) — “a little bit”, “somewhat”, “by proportion”, “a great deal”, “much, much more”…
I’m saying I don’t want to smell anyone’s natural pheromones unless it’s necessary. There were reasons for human beings to have invented soaps, perfumes and colognes 😋 .
“There’s a difference between BO and sweat, the latter of which one gets … through exertion. “
Can we stop talking about any sort of bodily “exertion” 👃 ❓
“Vivian Leigh did the same thing when she left her husband and daughter for Laurence Olivier. I just don’t know how the kids fared in all of this. I think Olivier had kids, too, with the wife he left.”
Such affairs, right or wrong, have occurred throughout the entire human history. LaR might be one of European royal “bastards”, who knows❗️ 😂
“If you watch Flesh and the Devil, he seems a bit hammy to me. He overacts. But she is sooo subtle but conveys so much.”
I’m a half way through it. He’s really hammy while Garbo is so subtly and dreamily beautiful… 🤩
I’ll begin to work a little bit tomorrow. 💪
Snow,
“A lot of times, we just can’t get rare stuff we so desire in this world… it’s a default of life. 🙂”
That’s the issue. It’s so rare, and I know that. Deep down, I know that. I don’t know when I’ll experience it again. Obviously, experiencing it with him is problematic.
“Those who can’t enjoy their job/career are really unlucky, imp. 😟”
A lot of people don’t like their jobs. Whether it’s a career or not.
“It can (may not) get boring or feeling empty inside without a sense of responsibility.”
What are you responsible for? I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way. I think of being responsible as being responsible for other people, like children. One’s own children. One can always quit a job.
“I read some, not all. Some limerents’ (especially partnered ones), behaviors repulsed/disguested me, which led their own sufferings…”
I could never figure out what they wanted.
“I did want ET’s friendship”
I just think if you want that level of closeness (revealing so much about yourself) with a man, he could interpret it as you wanting more than friendship. I’ve been discussing this with LaR. Women get emotionally close in friendships with no expectation of sex; it’s different for men. (This is a generalization.)
“Well, if one does not “labor” enough, how could one expect to reap a harvest? Are you saying that if you tango (LTR), you would not practice and rehearse regularly with your effort, and yet expect excellent performance that is supposed to fulfill yourself and your partner? 😀 (exclude those app men!)”
No, I meant that I’m aware of the worst-case scenarios … someone dies, someone walks away, etc. I don’t focus on them al lot.
” I’ll still invest my time and effort in a potential friendship with 1-5% hope, which itself is fulfilling, but expect nothing. If it fruits a little bit, I’d consider it as bonus of life.”
If it is reciprocal, yes. If I feel there is a generosity of sprit between us.
“I was/am talking about just making friends. I don’t know your physical package, I’m still talking with you right now, even if you have a messy hair, swollen eyes, and haven’t showed for 3 days. 🤭”
Yes, when it comes to friends, the “package” is irrelevant.
“Again, in dealing with friendship/relationship, I do NOT go to SMP marketplace and am very content to be alone at home; befriending with a bunch of LwL 👻 👻 👻 is fine.”
You asked what the definition was. So I provided it. YES, I am aware you don’t want to “date.” You’ve mentioned it several times. 🙂
“I used the word “deceitful” was because you thought he was disclosing his feelings for you, but in the end, he just wanted to treat you as an “entertainment”.”
He didn’t reveal “emotional” feelings. We confirmed interest in each other. So I don’t think he was deceitful. I guess I didn’t really think about what would happen after we met up, and it affected me much more than I thought it would.
” Myself never played seduction games — not even once in my life❗️”
I don’t see how that’s possible. You can’t always start spending time with someone (I won’t use the word “dating”! ) and not ever get burned because the other side wants less than you or feels less than you.
“So now you know you’ve fallen in a hole and still wish to stay there for a bit longer❓🤔”
I WISH to stay there ?
“But if I were you, I’d worry about my old “stuff”, which could be detected by the other side.”
Yes, that’s possible. Guys who are a bit predatory. As a general rule, I don’t think most people are that intentionally manipulative. Just hurtful to other people because their behavior may be selfish and self-motivated.
“If this attitude is somehow exuded from you, how could you expect them to be ever attracted by you for long and willing to tie a friendship/LRT with you? 😀”
I was joking.
” I think they can be our friends, if you sincerely treat them like a good friend (excluding sex).”
That I agree with! Just don’t get sex involved!
“Did you feel inspired, uplifted 🫠 , expanded, or renewed while writing these stuff? Something must have motivated you to write down the experiences, right? 🤔”
I wanted to capture the feelings.
I’ve learned more about myself through the writing.
“In the past, without 5 or 6 glimmer, I would not go to a 2nd date, period.”
I would say the glimmer was a 5 or 6 with the guy I dated. More so on the first date than the second. It waned a bit on the second.
OH … I went back to that social group and ran into Glimmer Man again. The glimmer is all but gone. He was friendly but he wasn’t flirty and started talking about his wife and kids, and that’s a way to kill it. 🙂
[“I talked with them in a way I wouldn’t have if I had known they had feelings beyond friendship. I told them things I otherwise wouldn’t have. So I did feel a bit duped. “]
“Understand. I would feel duped, too.”
I’m mostly referring to conversations about other guys I liked and my romantic past, which I wouldn’t have discussed in such detail or at all if I knew these guy friends weren’t only thinking we were friends. I let my guard down in a way I otherwise wouldn’t have.
“You can’t make such assumptions. Let’s hypothetically say, your SO is decent and very attractive in appearance and personality. Without doing or encouraging anything , a couple of limerents couldn’t help glimmer at him. ”
If he’s that appealing, he’s been fending women off for years. He should know how to put up boundaries. 🙂 I’m not young anymore. The guys I would date would be my age.
You married in your mid-20s ? So you were young and so was your SO.
” He’s still a flesh & blood man and has his vulnerability or hard time to push away those 9-tailed female foxes 🦊”
By my age that shouldn’t be as tempting as it may have been in your case when you were both so young.
“Then, as his loving and beloved SO, what are you going to do or try? Let him to be tempted away without helping him, without a fight with the 🦊 ?”
Yes, mam.
“If you don’t even fight for his Love, how could he believe you really care about his heart that much! 🙄 ”
I’m not fighting over someone. I’m not taking care of stuff they should have taken care of like I’m their parent. This doesn’t sound very Stoic to me. 🙂
“Whether professional or masculine, a man should treat a woman like a goddess in bedroom ”
I don’t know exactly what you mean but I’m not crazy about the word “goddess.” I don’t want someone fawning over me.
“I was saying that LwL is an invisible, miniature of the real world. Looking at how those limerents’ behaviors in their reality, we could detect and understand some men’s/women’s spineless actions in our own environment.”
I don’t think that it is. I don’t think most people are limerents. Even if 50 -60 percent have experienced limerence, I don’t think it’s probably more than once. I don’t think most people are tortured by feelings for other people. Sure, they notice other people or are attracted to other people or maybe have little crushes. But I don’t think the feelings are keeping them up nights if they have an SO.
“To assume SO could not sense those male SO’s affection for LO, is naive and ignorant. 😀”
I agree. SOs are picking up on something.
“I checked BTS’s singing today, and they are 100 times worse than Dimash❗️The former’s singing is on the tip of their throat — no volume or depth; the latter is from his heart, backbone and even his entire being, covering 6 octaves! There is no comparison between two groups, period‼️”
Good God, woman. You’re getting so riled up. 🙂 I think BTS is kind of cute and they’re fun to watch. That’s all I was saying. I don’t know anything about Dimash other than looking at a few pictures online.
“Lady Marcia, by the official record here, we all know you’re not 14 or 24 year old in your maturity. 😃”
I’m immature emotionally. 🙂
“I’m saying I don’t want to smell anyone’s natural pheromones unless it’s necessary.”
No, you want to. It’s a big part of attraction. Pheromones aren’t BO.
“There were reasons for human beings to have invented soaps, perfumes and colognes 😋 .”
Because society likes to anesthetize things.
“Can we stop talking about any sort of bodily “exertion” 👃 ❓”
NO! 🙂
“I’m a half way through it. He’s really hammy while Garbo is so subtly and dreamily beautiful… 🤩”
When she starred in that movie, he was a much bigger star than she was. He was the reigning male lead, considered the “Great Lover.” But his appeal didn’t translate to “talking pictures.” His voice sounded really affected. Whereas when the studio finally put her in a talking picture, her voice was everything people imagined … deep, world-weary, self-deprecating, sophisticated.
“I’ll begin to work a little bit tomorrow. 💪”
How did it go?
Miss Marcia,
I had my online tutoring yesterday and in-person session today. Secured a new, very smart student, whose glimmer is 2 to me. But I like him and his fiancée, they are sweet and match well.
I keep forgetting that I still need to avoid heavy stuff so strained my inner incisions a little bit by carrying some groceries. Otherwise, I’m feeling great — I get energized by my work — rewarding.
“That’s the issue. It’s so rare, and I know that. Deep down, I know that. I don’t know when I’ll experience it again. Obviously, experiencing it with him is problematic.”
Sometimes, rarity does not means it’s beneficial for us; but I understand what you went through (I felt the same with my last LE). I don’t think about whether I’ll experience it again.
Experiencing is not only “problematic” but may actually kill the desire — “Desire makes everything blossom; possession makes everything wither and fade.” — Proust.
I don’t know whether you want to keep or kill the desire for LO-Lite. It sounds futile to me.
“A lot of people don’t like their jobs. Whether it’s a career or not. “
Then a lot of people are unfortunate in their limited time on this earth, some out of little/no choice but some by choice. 😔 I try NOT to be stuck in doing anything that I can’t enjoy; but for a short time or necessity, I would put up with it.
“What are you responsible for? I don’t mean that in a sarcastic way. I think of being responsible as being responsible for other people, like children. One’s own children. One can always quit a job.”
There are a few types of responsibilities shared in many cultures: ones for one’s parents, for one’s jobs, for one’s friendships/relationships, for one’s own children, and for one’s pets. I have experienced them all at different time, by happy choice or with no options. I was not perfect in any of them, but “good enough”, based on Donald Woods Winnicott. I’m still paying for a private college tuition….
[“I read some, not all. Some limerents’ (especially partnered ones), behaviors repulsed/disgusted me, which led their own sufferings…”]
“I could never figure out what they wanted. “
A lot of them (based on their own posts) have “holes/stuff” in their life, but they can’t or refuse to dig deeper within and remove them.
“I just think if you want that level of closeness (revealing so much about yourself) with a man, he could interpret it as you wanting more than friendship. “
We talked about this with LaR before. I neither had the Western concept of EA, nor had played “the relationship game” before… thus I could not pre-conceive how he could interpret my motivation behind the monologues. Thus I was shocked by the “Bishop’s” sudden proposal in writing… Such naivety will NEVER occur again with the knowledge you and LaR have installed in me….
“I’ve been discussing this with LaR. Women get emotionally close in friendships with no expectation of sex; it’s different for men. (This is a generalization.)”
Men are form the Mars; women Venus. I’ve been an audience of your discussions — 🪑 🪑…. 😉
“No, I meant that I’m aware of the worst-case scenarios … someone dies, someone walks away, etc. I don’t focus on them al lot. “
Every situation in life has its “risks”, especially one wished LTRs. If you don’t choose any worthy ones to invest your efforts, then WHAT would you focus on in life (while can’t enjoy your work, either)?
[“I’ll still invest my time and effort in a potential friendship with 1-5% hope, which itself is fulfilling, but expect nothing. If it fruits a little bit, I’d consider it as bonus of life.”]
“If it is reciprocal, yes. If I feel there is a generosity of sprit between us. “
Of course. But to me, there is a need for that Friendship Beam and certain qualities on both sides. If I can’t LEARN something new from the other side, or s/he is deemed dependent on me in mind or spirit, then I walk. I highly enjoy tango — the literal Tango (I learned all international ballroom dances, not so much Latin divisions), but don’t want to “lean on” my dance partner or “being leaned on”. A successful LTR is a dual dance, INDEPENDENTLY TOGETHER❗️
“You asked what the definition was. So I provided it. YES, I am aware you don’t want to “date.” You’ve mentioned it several times. “
No “date” officially in those SMPs before my death. But I will not reject IT if it evolves organically after a Glimmer or Beam lands…
“He didn’t reveal “emotional” feelings. We confirmed interest in each other. So I don’t think he was deceitful. I guess I didn’t really think about what would happen after we met up, and it affected me much more than I thought it would. “
That thought “what would happen after we meet up” would be the emotional shield I talked about — one needs to put on before venturing out. Stoic is never NOT to take risks, but just having a bullet-proof vest on.
[” Myself never played seduction games — not even once in my life”]
“I don’t see how that’s possible. You can’t always start spending time with someone (I won’t use the word “dating”! ) and not ever get burned because the other side wants less than you or feels less than you. “
I answered this question in my earlier post to you today. With only one case, I felt being “burned” because the other side was indeed maturer than me at the time, while I had that abominable Longing — a very unattractive “possession”❗️
I learned from that experience that an independent, maturer man would not want to deal with women who has old “stuff”. Those “damsel savers” have their own “stuff” and culturally believe they can get rid of their own “stuff” by rescuing those damsels in distress.
Now, my longing is gone, I finally understand what it means. As I told Adam earlier, I no longer want to, or feel need to, be “saved” or to save anyone who has that “icky”, igonzing longing (from their past).
[“So now you know you’ve fallen in a hole and still wish to stay there for a bit longer”]
“I WISH to stay there ? “
That’s what I get from “I was referring to LO-lite. I’m not able to talk myself out of the hole I’ve fallen into because of him. Not right now, anyway. “. Did I misunderstand you here? 🧐
“Yes, that’s possible. Guys who are a bit predatory. As a general rule, I don’t think most people are that intentionally manipulative. Just hurtful to other people because their behavior may be selfish and self-motivated. “
See the above paragraph. I’m not worried about few “predatory” guys (they could manipulate our weakness and dally with our heartfelt emotions); but truly mature men. They don’t want to deal with our old “stuff” in LTR; they don’t want to be treated like a mental or emotional crutch by those “stuffed” women. To flip the side, do you want to “mother” an adult boy?
“I wanted to capture the feelings, I’ve learned more about myself through the writing. “
That’s the best outcome one can get from one’s own writing — self discovery, self-learning, and self-renewal! Please keep it up! 💪
Now, you understand what my monologues (excluding my feelings for him) did to me — healed my cptsd with one pair of non-judgmental ears — not just any ears, but LO’s patient 👂 !
“OH … I went back to that social group and ran into Glimmer Man again. The glimmer is all but gone. He was friendly but he wasn’t flirty and started talking about his wife and kids, and that’s a way to kill it. “
I’m glad that your glimmer is squashed. I don’t mind to hear about LO’s wife or kids. Everything new to me is curiosity provoking; you learn about people through their talks about their family.
“I’m mostly referring to conversations about other guys I liked and my romantic past, which I wouldn’t have discussed in such detail or at all if I knew these guy friends weren’t only thinking we were friends. I let my guard down in a way I otherwise wouldn’t have.”
As I told you before, in my upbringing, we don’t talk about our romantic or emotional stuff with opposite sex friends, especially when they’re just friends. My emotional life would be my privacy/“secretes”, not for sharing!
I could have never imagined how much I could have been sharing here — absolutely unthinkingible‼️ Now, I don’t care at all, because that longing is gone!
“If he’s that appealing, he’s been fending women off for years. He should know how to put up boundaries. “
You have a lot of expectations on men/others, it’s naive or unwise — the human history rarely happened according to “should” or “should not”! We can possibly manage our own emotions, mentality, personality, and behaviors, only if we WISH and have POWER to do so… A lot of times, we can’t even manage ourselves, let alone anyone else.
“I’m not young anymore. The guys I would date would be my age. You married in your mid-20s ? So you were young and so was your SO. “
There are 60-80 yrs old “babies” out there in both sexes. Yes, we were 22, 25 when we married — as immature as one could imagine! 😪
”By my age that shouldn’t be as tempting as it may have been in your case when you were both so young. “
Really? Aren’t many partnered limerent in their 40s-60s here in LwL? Why did they end up there? Why do you make such wishful assumptions?
[“Then, as his loving and beloved SO, what are you going to do or try? Let him to be tempted away without helping him, without a fight with the 🦊?”]
“Yes, mam. “
Then your passion is mild-temperature or mediocre, which some men may like, but some may walk away from.
“I’m not fighting over someone. I’m not taking care of stuff they should have taken care of like I’m their parent. This doesn’t sound very Stoic to me. “
Stoic NEVER means “passivity”! It is defined — “put one’s BEST/MOST efforts in virtuous (varied from era to era) deeds/actions one aspires to do/achieve but EXPECT the lest of wishful outcomes. Basically, expect failures but still make your best efforts❗️— they’re a minority in both the worlds.
Who says fighting for one’s love/passion is like being parent? You really have no ideas what parenthood means, my lady!
“I don’t know exactly what you mean but I’m not crazy about the word “goddess.” I don’t want someone fawning over me. “
Taking with you about taking female Millennium Falcon Flights — MFF, is like talking to a wall… Let’s close this topic in public space… 😀
“I don’t think that it is. I don’t think most people are limerents. Even if 50 -60 percent have experienced limerence, I don’t think it’s probably more than once. I don’t think most people are tortured by feelings for other people. “
I don’t know accurate percentage either, but just take the data from DrL’s blog.
“Sure, they notice other people or are attracted to other people or maybe have little crushes. But I don’t think the feelings are keeping them up nights if they have an SO. “
Ask Adam, LaR (I’m pulling the legs of 🎩 🌽 and 🎩 🍺 ) and read some “gross” posts here…
“Good God, woman. You’re getting so riled up. I think BTS is kind of cute and they’re fun to watch. That’s all I was saying. I don’t know anything about Dimash other than looking at a few pictures online. “
Oh, yes, My Lady! If you want to talk with me about any artists, please focus on qualities of their works, not gossips of their personal life — I told you before I’m not interested. I seriously focus on and try to appreciate their actual writings, film stories, songs, or paintings, not just their superficial physical packages. I’d always enjoy Pavarotti’s singing, although I think he was as fat as a pig! — I have his personally signed CD, he was so sweet… 💕
“I’m immature emotionally. “
Which would get yourself hurt easily 😪 … Are you going to do something about it? Or just sitting on the self-acknowledgment?
“No, you want to. It’s a big part of attraction. Pheromones aren’t BO. “
😳! Are you going to drag me back into the cave era? Then please bring me a level 7/8 glimmering man with your kind of attractive “pheromones. 😊
“Because society likes to anesthetize things. “
I personally love anesthetic things, it’s called civilization!”
[“Can we stop talking about any sort of bodily “exertion”] “NO! “
Your feistiness would be loved by Petruchio, but I am NOT even a man, your ladyship❗️
“I’m a half way through it. He’s really hammy while Garbo is so subtly and dreamily beautiful…
”When she starred in that movie, he was a much bigger star than she was. He was the reigning male lead, considered the “Great Lover.” But his appeal didn’t translate to “talking pictures.” His voice sounded really affected. Whereas when the studio finally put her in a talking picture, her voice was everything people imagined … deep, world-weary, self-deprecating, sophisticated. “
I just watched 2.5 of their silent movie together, it’s getting boring to watch those bourgeoise affairs… 🥱
Snow,
I think we’re just going around in circles here on so many topics.
So I’ll stick to your shorter posts and respond to those.
Marcia,
That’s perfectly fine! 🫂
Thank you for your feisty, insightful, empathetic, and enlightening discussions and debates with me here on 💡 🪑 💡. It’s really fun!
You probably have no ideas how much I’ve learned from your vast cultural knowledges and colorful, lived experiences. We’ll continue on other topics as they naturally emerge… 🤗
LO put his house on the market today. I have mixed feelings. Part relief, part sadness.
I fear it may take a year to sell.
I would like to post a picture of the garden, but I am guessing this is not allowed?
Sending hugs. I’d love to see a pic of the garden. I don’t know how you post images here. Does he need to sell his house before he moves or is he moving shortly anyway? I feel as though you’re in limerence limbo until he has a move date.
Do you like looking at property sites and being nosey about all the houses for sale? I find it really fun, even though I’m very happy with my own house. Uniquepropertycompany.co.uk is fun. I also love watching “Grand Designs” which is a TV series in the UK about people who have built their own homes, following the journey with all the pitfalls. I don’t know whether you’re able to watch it over the pond.
Re the travel thing. That is sad. Are you up to doing any travelling at all or does your health prevent you completely? I feel as though a change of scene might help you with a confidence boost. If travel is out of the question, are there any other activities you could start to find a new focus? Something like singing in a choir? (I’m sorry I haven’t read all of your previous posts and don’t know what things you already do).
Okay, to answer your questions, he needs to sell his house before he moves.
LO foolishly bought a house in May before this one was even on the market. He is going to have to ask his rich brother to front him the $$.
I don’t especially like looking at houses, due to the fact that I had a beautiful home while I was married and was forced to downsize considerably when my ex dumped me. I love LO’s house, though. I can post a few more pictures if Dr. L will allow it.
Singing in a choir would be too exhausting for me. I need to stick with short visits with friends. I have myalgic encephalomyelitis and get exhausted very easily.
Norma, you can’t post pictures of someone else’s house without their consent. I’ve removed those comments.
Dr L, I think she shared pictures that are already available online from the estate agent listing, since his house is on the market. Is that correct Norma Desmond?
Yes, that is correct. This is from a publicly available real estate listing.
But – if someone looking at this site knows what they’re doing with tech (and keep in mind very many more people probably read here than comment), they could take those photos and potentially find out where the house is, and by extension who he is, and who you are. I’m sure that’s not what you want.
Sorry to poop the party but that is why I reckon DrL had to take the pictures down.
I will say – it is a mighty fine house and garden Norma, I can see why you said it was like Disneyland – I have never seen anything quite like it ✨️🪄
Hi Norma,
because the photos you shared are listed with an estate agency makes is very quick and easy to get his address, and then connecting all the other information you have shared about him could readily reveal him.
I don’t think that is right or fair.
Also assuming you want to protect your exact locality too.
I’m saying this with your best interests at heart.
Yes the fact it was on a real estate website makes it even worse, as it locates it precisely.
Regardless, the point of this site is to help people manage their limerence and live a purposeful life. Dwelling on the details of an LO and their life and their home and their habits is the exact opposite of the best strategy for recovery.
I’m laissez-faire about comments generally, but this really isn’t healthy.
Thank you Dr L, yes that makes sense, both about the privacy of the house pictures, and the fact that dwelling on information about LO just perpetuates limerence.
Norma Desmond, I’m sorry I’ve been encouraging you to talk and share information about your LO, which isn’t conducive to recovery. Ultimately, limerence isn’t about them. It’s about us. So let’s concentrate on you and how to seek peace and happiness regardless of what he does or doesn’t do, or the timing of his move. We can’t control them but we do have agency over ourselves.
Please don’t be sorry. You have been so good to me, and your kindness warms my heart.
Norma,
What is your fantasy about your LO that is sustaining your LE for you?
My situation seems quite the opposite of yours. For years, I have sustained a fantasy that one day LO and I will be together, knowing that “together” might only last for a weekend…
We have a mutual admiration for each other’s professional success and have had long email and text chats for two 5-year periods (including one that I now need to end). But we have never spent more than a few minutes face to face in more than 25 years.
My crisis comes from the rational mind interjecting that at the rate we are going, I will need to wait until we are both 70… Now, at midlife, I want to know “I’ve still got it,” and I want to know from LO.
Enter the new fantasy: LO visits me and gives me the chance to see if my desire would survive time together in person. LO thinks not, as LO is objectively not good looking. My internal response in my head: “I don’t care. I want you anyway. I have always wanted you. I am uniquely qualified to love you because no one else has ever felt this way about you.”
Now I am realizing what an irrational fool I have been and trying to move past it, even though LO is the first person I want to tell so many things about what I do at work, what I read, entertainment we both enjoy… Thinking about NC is hard, and I have not really been tested yet. I turned off notifications from LO but I keep checking to see if LO texted.
To H.:
I think it’s the fact that LO has such stature in the world, and I do not.
When I am with him, I feel like his stature rubs off on me.
If he shows approval toward me, I feel like it’s highly significant.
Thank you for asking about me.
To H.:
Love your fantasy about being 70. LO is close to 70 and I am past it. It would be nice if there was something magical about that age which caused prior obstacles to disappear!
Okay, I just humiliated myself big-time. I was walking to Starbucks and saw LO sitting in his car. He had just pulled up and was obviously on the phone. I waved to him and decided to sit down in one of the chairs outside to wait.
Obviously I should have turned and run, but I didn’t because, well, LO.
He goes to Starbucks every day to get tea for himself and his mom, so I figured he’d finish his call and go in. After a few minutes, instead of getting out of his car, he started the engine and drove off.
I am sure it was some kind of emergency that had nothing to do with me. But I FELT as if it did. I know I did this to myself; he did nothing wrong, but I felt very silly, nonetheless.
Oh no! I hate that cringe feeling. Did he see you and know you were waiting? If so, would it really have been that hard for him to just wave and point in a “Sorry, something urgent, have to go” kind of way? I’m feeling indignant on your behalf.
Also, I’m sorry, but Starbucks? I thought he was less ordinary than that.
I love the picture of the garden. It’s overflowing with stuff. Exactly as you describe – lush, exhilarating, but exhausting.
I’m sorry that your physical condition prevents you from doing a lot of the things that you would love doing and that would help you. That’s really hard, and unfair.
Maybe you don’t have stature in the world, but you have stature with us here on this site.
Forgot to add, thank you for your lovely compliment. It made my day.
I love the pictures! Amazing house! An assault on the senses. Awful and incredible at same time. Mr Fancy Pants indeed. I’m not sure about the Thomas Hardy novel. More like F. Scott Fitzgerald. It reminds me of the village of Portmeirion in Wales. So many questions! Where did he get all his stuff? How does he keep it clean? And if he goes out to Starbucks to get tea, does he sit on one of those sofas sipping from a disposable Starbucks cup? Or does he decant the tea into a floral china cup to drink it?
Sorry, this site is supposed to be about helping you to recover, and I’m not helping. I hope you’re feeling better after yesterday’s upset.
I enjoy joking about LO, it’s fine.
Yes, LO actually drinks out of a humble Starbucks cup.
I don’t know how he keeps his house clean. I am too afraid to ask.
I once told him he was too fancy for me, and he actually said, “I’m not fancy.”
When you used the word “awful,” did you mean that there’s too much stuff? Because I feel that way. Sometimes I think his house is beautiful and I love it, and other times, I get overwhelmed.
Momma is sleeping in her bra, racer back shirt (I think that is what they are called) shorts and despite watching Tim Burton’s Batman and have had a vasectomy, I kinda wanna make another baby. Something about that look makes me 😏 But she’s really anxious and nervous. Her anxiety is bad. So I lay with her and protect her.
I hate I cant help her out of anxiety. I hate I try to touch her and she flinches. Am I just a bad husband? I just want to comfort her.
Maybe she doesn’t want to be touched. Can you remind me of your story, Adam? I’ve read a lot of comments on this site but I am having trouble placing you.
Adam,
Ask her if there’s anything you do to make her feel better.
If she says, “No,” don’t push it.
Its not about you, it’s about her.
She has a lot of anxiety. She was*aped before I met her. When her anxiety gets high touch becomes traumatic. She knows its me but reacts like its not me? I feel like a pervert trying to comfort her in these moods with touch. Because my love language is touch.
I’m watching Momma sleep while I watch TV. She’s so peaceful. It’s beautiful.
I seem to have failed completely. I have lost all of my resolve to stay NC. I spent an hour with LO today and it was glorious. We had a blast, and I feel so uplifted by his companionship. I try reminding myself that he’s “heroin,” but it is doing no good.
What on earth am I supposed to do with myself now?
Hugs.
Right now, for you, NC seems to be all stick and no carrot. You don’t want to go NC because he is the only thing right now that makes you feel uplifed.
I think what I’m about to say may be quite harsh , but I feel as though even if you were able to have a relationship with him, it wouldn’t be enough, because you would be relying on his companionship to lift you out of depression, and that’s too much responsibility for anyone to take on.
Is there anything you can do to try to find joy apart from him? I’m not asking you to find the solutions to all your problems, but just something nice to bring alternative enjoyment to life? Interests to pursue (even something quite obscure) and other friendships to cultivate? Whenever I’ve suggested something you’ve explained why not, but not come up with alternatives, like my kids when they tell me they’re bored! But I know you must have interests because you discuss books and films with others on here. You are intelligent and your brain needs to be occupied. There must be something, but only you can figure out what.
Of course you may be doing all sorts of other things but on here you just talk about limerence because that’s what this site is for! So feel free to tell me I’m talking rubbish!
You are so right. I do have other things I do. I spent a good deal of time yesterday after I saw LO discussing politics with one friend, and more time speculating about what’s going to happen on “The Gilded Age.”
So yes, I know that I have to find things to do to entertain myself. I have a few hobbies which entertain me. Unfortunately, my thoughts are always with LO.
And so we end up with the limerent’s predicament. So many things could bring us joy, yet our brain fixates on longing for a thing that is making us unhappy.
There must be a way to break the pattern. Please believe that you will find it!
My situation is very different in that I found myself genuinely confused as to why I was unhappy. I had some counselling last year and came away from each session feeling like a dreadful person for not being happy with everything I have, and escaping through fantasy. But various things have improved since then, and I am feeling much better.
I am glad you are doing better. I managed okay before LO and I will manage again after LO. I wish my willpower was stronger.
‘1984’ Hasn’t Changed, but America Has
— Opinion of NYT 7/25/2025
By Charlie English
Mr. English is the author of, among other books, “The CIA Book Club: The Secret Mission to Win the Cold War with Forbidden Literature.”
I traced a copy of George Orwell’s “1984” to the library of the social sciences department at Warsaw University, a literary treasure trove heavy with the scent of dust and old paper, and so jammed with shelves that in places the only way to move around was sideways. For months I had been searching for this particular volume, a book that had played, in my view, a small but significant role in winning the Cold War.
There are myriad reasons the Eastern Bloc collapsed in 1989. The economic stagnation of the East and the war in Afghanistan are two of the most commonly cited. But literature also played its part, thanks to a long-running U.S. operation conducted by the Central Intelligence Agency that covertly moved millions of books through the Iron Curtain in a bid to undermine Communist Party censorship.
While it is hard to quantify the program’s effect in absolute terms, its history offers valuable lessons for today, not least since some of the very same titles and authors the C.I.A. sent East during the Cold War — including “1984”— are now deemed objectionable by a network of conservative groups across the United States.
First published in English in 1949, Orwell’s novel describes the dystopian world of Oceania, a totalitarian state where the protagonist, Winston Smith, works in a huge government department called the Ministry of Truth. The ministry is ironically named: Its role is not to safeguard the truth but to destroy it, to edit history to fit the present needs of the party and its leader, Big Brother, since, as the slogan runs, “Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.”
In the real Soviet system, every country had its equivalent of the Ministry of Truth, modeled on the Moscow template. In Poland, the largest Eastern European nation outside the Soviet Union, this censorship and propaganda apparatus was called the Main Office for the Control of Presentations and Public Performances, and its headquarters occupied most of a city block in downtown Warsaw.
From art to advertising, television to theater, the Main Office reached into all aspects of Polish life. It had employees in every TV and radio station, every film studio and every publishing house. Every typewriter in Poland had to be registered, access to every photocopier was restricted, and a permit was needed even to buy a ream of paper. Books that did not conform to the censor’s rules were pulped.
The result was intellectual stultification, what the Nobel laureate Czeslaw Milosz called a logocracy, a society where words and language were manipulated to fit the propaganda needs of the regime. In the logocracy, the Warsaw Pact was said to protect Poland from attack by “revisionist” German neo-Nazis and “Western imperialists,” even though the main imperialist threat came from the East.
Troublesome people, inconvenient facts and awkward areas of journalistic inquiry were removed from public life. It was forbidden to reference the fraught history of Russo-Polish relations, for instance, or the secret police massacres of Polish officers at Katyn, or mention the fact that Poland had a giant alcoholism problem. People existed in a world of Orwellian “doublethink,” believing certain things to be true at home, but adopting a very different, party-sanctioned “truth” outside it.
Orwell was made a “nonperson” in the Soviet Union, after the publication of his satire of the Russian Revolution, “Animal Farm,” in 1945. It was dangerous even to mention the author’s name in print there, and when “1984” was published it was banned in the Eastern Bloc in all languages. But when copies of the novel did slip through the Iron Curtain, they had enormous power. The book was “difficult to obtain and dangerous to possess,” Milosz wrote, but Orwell — who had never visited Eastern Europe — fascinated people there because of “his insight into details they know well.”
What some Eastern European readers of contraband copies of “1984” suspected, but very few knew for sure, was that these and millions of other uncensored texts were not reaching them entirely by chance, but were part of a decades-long U.S. intelligence operation called the “C.I.A. book program,” based for much of its existence in the nondescript office building at 475 Park Avenue South in Midtown Manhattan. There, a small team of C.I.A. employees organized the infiltration of 10 million books and periodicals into the Eastern Bloc, sending literature by every imaginable means: in trucks fitted with secret compartments, on yachts that traversed the stormy Baltic, in the mail, or slipped into the luggage of countless travelers from Eastern Europe who dropped in at C.I.A. distribution hubs in the West.
The C.I.A. program operated across the Eastern Bloc and assigned specialist editors for each country, from Hungary to the mighty Soviet Union itself. But it was in Poland that the books were most warmly received, partly because the Warsaw regime was more liberal than others in Eastern Europe and partly because Poland had a long tradition of underground literature dating back to tsarist times. From the late 1970s, banned books would also be reproduced in huge quantities by underground printers in Poland, often on presses bought and smuggled by associates of the C.I.A. program, amplifying the literature’s effect.
The first Polish translation of “1984” was published in France in 1953, by the Polish émigré Jerzy Giedroyc, a C.I.A. asset known to the agency by the cryptonym QRBERETTA. It was a copy of this edition that I found that day at Warsaw University. In 1957, this copy was given with a few other contraband titles to a Polish art critic who had been allowed to travel to Paris, who carried it back to Poland through the border. Inside the Eastern Bloc, the book spent the next three decades performing the task for which it had been published: quietly undermining Soviet Communism from within.
By the mid-1980s, Poland was flooded with uncensored publications, some smuggled in, many printed underground. The system of Communist Party censorship started to break down, and in losing its grip on information, the Polish state lost its grip on the people too. The Communists were forced to hold semi-free elections in June of 1989, which were won by the opposition movement, Solidarity. After Poland came the deluge: A year later, all of the Communist regimes in Eastern Europe had been replaced by democratically elected governments.
In the mid-2020s, “1984” is again being restricted, this time by conservative, Trump-aligned politicians in the United States. In May 2023, the Republican governor of Iowa, Kim Reynolds, signed into law Senate File 496, which according to the governor “puts parents in the driver’s seat” when it comes to their children’s education. In fact SF 496 forces Iowa schools to remove from their libraries thousands of books of which cultural conservatives disapprove.
Mostly, SF 496, which is the subject of an ongoing legal battle, bans books that feature L.G.B.T.Q.+ characters or progressive themes such as feminism or are written by people of color. But the legislation also sweeps up several authors whose works lampoon totalitarianism and that were sent east by the C.I.A. book program, including Aldous Huxley, Kurt Vonnegut and Orwell, whose “1984” and “Animal Farm” are both on banned lists.
SF 496 is but one cog in the growing apparatus of American censorship, as conservative action groups seek to ban books around the country. PEN America has documented close to 16,000 bans (instances in which a book has been withdrawn or access to it has been restricted because of its content) in schools since 2021, with 10,046 in the 2023-24 school year alone. The censorship efforts are mostly driven by Republican state legislators and parental-rights groups. Florida takes the lead, with more than 4,561 book bans recorded in that school year — including in one case a graphic novel adaptation of “1984” — via a combination of new state laws and parental pressure. Next come Iowa (with 3,671 book bans that year), Texas (538), Wisconsin (408), Virginia (121) and Kentucky (100).
Banning books doesn’t stop at the local level.This year, after Mr. Trump signed three executive orders aimed at combating “wokeness,” the Department of Defense’s education agency removed and reviewed more than 500 titles from its school system, including, according to one report, Aldous Huxley’s “Brave New World,” which the C.I.A. had sent to the Eastern Bloc. Federal funding agencies have compiled a list of more than 350 banned words and phrases, including “women,” “diversity” and “ethnicity.”
In the Cold War, the United States chose “freedom” — democratic freedom, freedom of speech, intellectual freedom and freedom of choice — as its key point of difference with the Soviet enemy. Since the end of World War II, U.S. presidents from both parties have wrapped themselves in the rhetoric of the “free world” that they led. When Ronald Reagan — who spearheaded the Cold War “freedom” agenda and oversaw an upswing in C.I.A. literary programs — spoke to the British Parliament in 1982, he invoked “the march of freedom and democracy,” which would “leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash-heap of history.” It was no coincidence that George Minden, the leader of the C.I.A. book program, once described his operation as “an offensive of free, honest thinking.”
Mr. Trump, JD Vance, Ron DeSantis and their fellow travelers expound the virtues of the First Amendment while dismantling guardrails against disinformation and working to suppress political ideas they oppose. Book bans aren’t their only tool. They also block access for independent journalists, intimidate news organizations and defund outlets they perceive as hostile to the MAGA agenda, including NPR, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, Radio Free Asia and Voice of America.
There are two lessons from the history of the C.I.A. book program that the book banners would do well to heed. One is that censorship — whether by Communists, fascists or democratic governments — tends to create demand for the works it targets. (That, and Mr. Trump’s Orwellian tactics, may explain why “1984” has been surging up the book charts in recent years.)
The other is that the totalitarians lost the Cold War, and freedom of thought won the day. The former Polish dissident Adam Michnik, whose own works were promoted by the C.I.A., presumably without his knowledge, said: “It was books that were victorious in the fight. We should build a monument to books.”
Wow! A really fascinating history.
We live in worrying times indeed.
☁️,
That’s why I was highly recommending posters here to read the short novel (or watch the movie with John Hurt), if they intend to understand how ordinary people feel if they lived or grew up in “1984” system…
I’m biting my lips to pass the next 3.5 years… but by then, not sure how much of this country, supposed to be a model of democratic system, will be altered….
Are you in the US or on a different continent? (Don’t tell if you’re uncomfortable)
I’m in the UK. Our current government is relatively sane, but it’s against a worrying backdrop of division and rising populism.
I disagree with your assessment of our current government. It’s disheartening how inept and unconvincing all our current politicians are. I don’t want to vote for any of them.
Agree with you Tom. Didn’t vote for any of them last time. Can’t see a way that will change next time, for now.
That’s really depressing. However imperfect our democracy, we have to engage with it, because it’s better than the alternative.
Snow,
The irony here is that Trump and Orwell *should* be on the same side – ‘against Communism’. So why ban his books?
Discuss.
What are you talking about? How do you come to such a conclusion — Orwell and Trump on the same side?
Orwell is absolutely against totalitarian regime, and Trump wants and is working on to become a king!
The Supreme Court is helping him get there. And the Senate just confirmed another Trump sycophant to the Federal Bench.
It’s going to be a long four years.
“Trump wants and is working on to become a king!”
And the Pope too..
But keep me out of this conversation.. 😁
That’s where the idea that the political spectrum is a line between left and right falls apart, doesn’t it?! I was being a bit facetious, but I meant – Orwell seemed to be against the hard left (Communism), as would Trump be (he is on the right and – at least supposedly – dislikes communist regimes around the world).
However, if you see it as a circle instead (with freedom on one side and totalitarianism on the other) then voila, left-totalitarianism and right-totalitarianism have a meeting point.
For the avoidance of doubt, I dislike both.
Freedom seems to be one of those concepts like “fairness”. Everyone has their own idea of what it means, and both sides think they are the freedom/fairness fighters.
I’m actively trying to not get demoralised, but the thing I find most disconcerting is that I’m no longer confident that I can find out the truth of a situation without doing a lot of independent research. The book banning is a great example. One party saying “they’re banning 1984!”, the other saying “they’re banning Huckleberry Finn!”, and at the bottom of it all there seems to be little more than two groups of activists trying to get their way (and being egged on by cynical journalists).
Looks like the demoralisation might have the upper hand today 😉
How about they start with not banning ANY books?
There’s an idea.
“How about they start with not banning ANY books?”
A good principle. But then it gets more complicated.
Let’s start with schools. What books are suitable to put in a school library? Fifty Shades of Grey? Maybe not age-appropriate. What about 1984? An important book, but it does also contain sex scenes. What age is it appropriate for?
Or how about if a school put a whole load of books about Intelligent Design in the science section? At what age have kids learnt the requisite critical thinking skills to deal with that?
What about the internet, and YouTube channels promoting misogyny, or violent porn, or conspiracy theories, or religious-political extremism and bomb-making?
How does society decide what to censor?
☁️
“How does society decide what to censor?”
Who is the “society” here? An inanimate organization/machine or breathing human beings in it?
Then, WHO get(s) authority to “censor” anything, particularly books?
To Snow:
I have been thinking about “1984” a lot these days. I am also currently reading a book called “The Inextinguishable Symphony” written by the son of two Holocaust survivors who were fortunate enough to be such gifted musicians that they were put into an orchestra rather than being sent to a concentration camp, which saved their lives.
I see parallels between Germany in the 1930s and our current administration’s antics.
Norma,
It’s a scary time for us Americans here….
I ran away from COO’s “1984” system, and not got into a new “1984” environment….
Typo: and NOW got into a new “1984)…
To Snow:
I long for an “edit” button.
I bet your story is amazing but I expect this forum is not the place for sharing something as personally identifiable as that.
☁️
I can just say that my personal experiences make me MORE appreciative of whatever I already have in my personal hands and some other shared common stuff (e.g. human rights and privileges) which are lacking in COO but taken for granted or misused by people who are born with them or used to have them.
I think an ability to want/appreciate to what one already has, instead to desire/want what one does NOT have, is one key to lead content and joyful life.
Limerence by definition is an excessive dearie, an “addiction” to want/desire what one can NOT have. Sometimes, (not sure about the percentage), when limerents get their LO, their limerent “affections” die, which is different from the substance abuse — leading increasing dependence and then possibly addicts’ death.
Yeah, I see things around town that make me think, There’s a future brownshirt! Like the guy who “rage speeds” past protesters.
🦇 📕 ,
that sounds indeed scary, since angry people can have guns here…
In COO and most Eastern countries, ordinary people could never get guns, not even personal pistols. I’ve never touched or even witnessed one in my life, except in movies.
To Snow:
Too many people in the pocket of the NRA for any meaningful gun control, unfortunately.
Snow: Yes, and this guy most likely DOES have guns. The ones with the big Trump and anti-woke and anti-Democrat signs are the ones who also tend to love their guns.
Norma 🏠 & 🦇 📕,
That’s why I did/do not go to protests often… I don’t actively get involved in politics or their activities…
WRT 1984:
They no longer need to install screens in your residence, there are cameras and microphones on every laptop, Alexa and Ciri can listen in on everything you say, and they can jack your cellphone without you ever knowing. People have no idea what might be programmed into the Internet of Things.
I watched an NSA demonstration on what they can do. There motto is “If you can beam it, we can jack it.” The presenter said cellphones made their lives so much easier. They don’t have to plant as many bugs as they used to.
My son is a Type 1 diabetic. I asked if it might be possible to jack the signal between a glucose monitor and an insulin pump. The response was he better hope that he doesn’t have any tech savvy enemies.
1984 may be closer than you think.
That’s what COO does every minute with every cell phone registered in the country with one of three giant mobile services.
I installed a VPN before entered the country last summer, then I could NOT be connected to the local wifi, and had to use all my purchased, limited phone data.
The Gift
Li-Young Lee
1957 –
To pull the metal splinter from my palm
my father recited a story in a low voice.
I watched his lovely face and not the blade.
Before the story ended, he’d removed
the iron sliver I thought I’d die from.
I can’t remember the tale,
but hear his voice still, a well
of dark water, a prayer.
And I recall his hands,
two measures of tenderness
he laid against my face,
the flames of discipline
he raised above my head.
Had you entered that afternoon
you would have thought you saw a man
planting something in a boy’s palm,
a silver tear, a tiny flame.
Had you followed that boy
you would have arrived here,
where I bend over my wife’s right hand.
Look how I shave her thumbnail down
so carefully she feels no pain.
Watch as I lift the splinter out.
I was seven when my father
took my hand like this,
and I did not hold that shard
between my fingers and think,
Metal that will bury me,
christen it Little Assassin,
Ore Going Deep for My Heart.
And I did not lift up my wound and cry,
Death visited here!
I did what a child does
when he’s given something to keep.
I kissed my father.
Self and Life
George Eliot
1819 –1880
SELF.
Changeful comrade, Life of mine,
Before we two must part,
I will tell thee, thou shalt say,
What thou hast been and art.
Ere I lose my hold of thee
Justify thyself to me.
LIFE.
I was thy warmth upon thy mother’s knee
When light and love within her eyes were one;
We laughed together by the laurel-tree,
Culling warm daisies ’neath the sloping sun;
We heard the chickens’ lazy croon,
Where the trellised woodbines grew,
And all the summer afternoon
Mystic gladness o’er thee threw.
Was it person? Was it thing?
Was it touch or whispering?
It was bliss and it was I:
Bliss was that thou knew’st me by.
SELF.
Soon I knew thee more by Fear
And sense of what was not,
Haunting all I held most dear;
I had a double lot:
Ardor, cheated with alloy,
Wept the more for dreams of joy.
LIFE.
Remember how thy ardor’s magic sense
Made poor things rich to thee and small things great;
How hearth and garden, field and bushy fence,
Were thy own eager love incorporate;
And how the solemn, splendid Past
O’er thy early widened earth
Made grandeur, as on sunset cast
Dark elms near take mighty girth.
Hands and feet were tiny still
When we knew the historic thrill,
Breathed deep breath in heroes dead,
Tasted the immortals’ bread.
SELF.
Seeing what I might have been
Reproved the thing I was,
Smoke on heaven’s clearest sheen,
The speck within the rose.
By revered ones’ frailties stung
Reverence was with anguish wrung.
LIFE.
But all thy anguish and thy discontent
Was growth of mine, the elemental strife
Toward feeling manifold with vision blent
To wider thought: I was no vulgar life
That, like the water-mirrored ape,
Not discerns the thing it sees,
Nor knows its own in others’ shape,
Railing, scorning, at its ease.
Half man’s truth must hidden lie
If unlit by Sorrow’s eye.
I by Sorrow wrought in thee
Willing pain of ministry.
SELF.
Slowly was the lesson taught
Through passion, error, care;
Insight was the loathing fraught
And effort with despair.
Written on the wall I saw
“Bow!” I knew, not loved, the law.
LIFE.
But then I brought a love that wrote within
The law of gratitude, and made thy heart
Beat to the heavenly tune of seraphim
Whose only joy in having is, to impart:
Till thou, poor Self—despite thy ire,
Wrestling ’gainst my mingled share,
Thy faults, hard falls, and vain desire
Still to be what others were—
Filled, o’erflowed with tenderness
Seeming more as thou wert less,
Knew me through that anguish past
As a fellowship more vast.
SELF.
Yea, I embrace thee, changeful Life!
Far-sent, unchosen mate!
Self and thou, no more at strife,
Shall wed in hallowed state.
Willing spousals now shall prove
Life is justified by love.
******
Life is justified by love
Only joy of heart to beat is to impart
The Choir Invisible
George Eliot
1819 –1880
O May I join the choir invisible
Of those immortal dead who live again
In minds made better by their presence: live
In pulses stirr’d to generosity,
In deeds of daring rectitude, in scorn
For miserable aims that end with self,
In thoughts sublime that pierce the night like stars,
And with their mild persistence urge man’s search
To vaster issues.
So to live is heaven:
To make undying music in the world,
Breathing as beauteous order that controls
With growing sway the growing life of man.
So we inherit that sweet purity
For which we struggled, fail’d, and agoniz’d
With widening retrospect that bred despair.
Rebellious flesh that would not be subdued,
A vicious parent shaming still its child,
Poor anxious penitence, is quick dissolv’d;
Its discords, quench’d by meeting harmonies,
Die in the large and charitable air.
And all our rarer, better, truer self,
That sobb’d religiously in yearning song,
That watch’d to ease the burthen of the world,
Laboriously tracing what must be,
And what may yet be better,—saw within
A worthier image for the sanctuary,
And shap’d it forth before the multitude,
Divinely human, raising worship so
To higher reverence more mix’d with love,—
That better self shall live till human Time
Shall fold its eyelids, and the human sky
Be gather’d like a scroll within the tomb Unread forever.
This is life to come,
Which martyr’d men have made more glorious
For us who strive to follow. May I reach
That purest heaven, be to other souls
The cup of strength in some great agony,
Enkindle generous ardor, feed pure love,
Beget the smiles that have no cruelty,
Be the sweet presence of a good diffus’d,
And in diffusion ever more intense!
So shall I join the choir invisible
Whose music is the gladness of the world.
****
I shall join the tiny choir invisible
Whose music is the joy of Longing-free living.
🐦🔥
My Brother from another mother
I realized this morning I had a vague recollection of calling the gal that works where LO did yesterday, during working hours. I took the day off to get some errands done. I was not at all sober at that time. When I got what I needed done I came home. Which I think she knew. But I realized it was a call made to not call LO. Because I brought her up. We’ve been looking for a new hire since someone left and I suggested calling LO to see if she’d come back.
It was a moment of weakness, but I guess better than actually calling LO? She said that as long as this new hire passes a drug screening they have someone new to hire. But not LO. I was excited to think she might come back. When will this $hit end Brother?
On a positive note Momma got some XBox 360 controllers delivered yesterday and we played some Resident Evil 5 together again last night. The only video game she’s played with me in 25 years. It was a very good time. But damn brother her and that infinite missile launcher is a danger 😁
“I was excited to think she might come back. When will this $hit end Brother?”
Adam Brother,
When I was still married, I had this terrible sick thrill of bragging to my Wife, the conquests and interests I had in other females besides her. It was often looked on by her as MJ being MJ but at the same time, I know my behavior ate away at her very worth and value as a Wife and Mother. I was a pathetic Man. Selfish, lustful, sinful, weak and insecure as f—. I had no business being married. Or bringing children into this world.. I was married to a wonderful Woman, that despite my despicable self, loved me unconditionally and gave me her absolute best. I look back on all of my behavior then, with nothing but contempt and regret. To have the audacity to think another human should put up with someone like me, behaving like that, is insanity on another level. Do you not agree?? I actually thought divorce was never in the cards. What an idiot. It’s no wonder she left me. Now I’m a sad, pathetic, middle-aged limerent, that cries over everything.
I’ll be single, lonely and miserable forever.. At least that how it feels to quite often. “Revenge is mine”, says the Lord. Ain’t it the truth?..
I guess what I’m trying to say is you have to really really hate and despise what you did, to almost kill your marriage. Which of course means hate the idea of your LO re-surfacing somewhere in your present or future. You may believe you have things under control and perhaps you do but she is also nowhere currently in your life now. So can you assure yourself that even if she did come back, you wouldn’t allow yourself to become overwhelmed by her presence again?
I say this not to guilt you or make you feel bad. Most of us know what a LO does to our psyche. Yours seems to affect you in the way mine did and still does to a degree. I’m also seeing you as having made good stride and patching things over with Momma over what happened. You don’t want to revisit that LE route again do you?
I guess the only difference between you and I then is, you’re currently still married and I am not. So if I give myself agency to indulge a little in LO rumination, it’s about the only fake happiness I’ll get for a few minutes. So in that regard I don’t have to feel bad or guilty someone is being cheated. Because my goals and fantasies about Women run amuck all the time now anyway. No SO = nobody is betrayed.
You posted the other day, about how much you enjoy watching Momma sleep. Maybe it was a drunk rambling when you posted but don’t discount this. You’re actually being honest in that and believe me. That’s one whole helluva lot better than coming home every night to a quiet dark house and NO warm pretty Woman sleeping in my bed, that I can cuddle up next to and spoon all night.
It will end when you decide to stop giving brain space to it.
“It will end when you decide to stop giving brain space to it.”
Damn brother, you gotta lay it on me that heavy? Dame Marcia is usually the one to lay it down like a bricklayer on me. 🙂
I appreciate you being straight forward with me though. I had a moment of weakness. And I fell for it.
“I guess what I’m trying to say is you have to really really hate and despise what you did, to almost kill your marriage.”
I don’t know what to say to this brother. I know what is right. Sunday I prayed to God to help me past this. It’s the first time I didn’t pray for her. I was in tears and I know I wanted to be prayed over but I didn’t want to air what was in my heart to others. I am pretty sure the limerence is gone, but I have a hard time letting go of the past. Which is a problem in general for me. I overthink and regret my past.
I probably read your post a dozen times over the weekend thinking how to respond. (I can’t type worth a $hit on my phone.) Trying to think how to respond to your pointed words.
Funny, youtube throws me a mix together and while I am typing this Air Supply’s Making Love Out of Nothing At All is playing. Guess I need my own dose of medicine. But at least I, outside of church, spent the whole weekend with Momma. I don’t want to be this way anymore. I thought that I made it through the rain.
Thank you for being here for me brother. I haven’t had someone to call brother in a very long time. I got a cold beer in the fridge for you if we ever get to have a drink together some day.
“Damn brother, you gotta lay it on me that heavy?”
Adam,
I know it was heavy but I also know you were having a weak moment. I get it. Even when I was writing it, I thought it was somewhat rough. But I’ll tell you straight up, a thousand times over, I absolutely hate being divorced. I hate it every day. I even tell my Ex that. All the time. Yet how can I not be for being such a crass, blatant idiot to her? What I wrote you was just a snippet of my so called marriage. It was probably way worse in many others’ opinions. My ex in-laws will be the first to admit it. Most of them really don’t like me and after reading that, how can you blame them?
I had something so good and so right and something I chose to do for another Woman as to go so far and marry her and then I decide to throw it all away, just to get off. Because it was convenient and they wanted me, and they looked good and, and and, and, and just stf up MJ!! Nobody cares..
I feel bad because I feel like both of us are stuck in the endless loop of LO reverie, when the blasted thing shouldn’t matter much anymore anyway. Count me in twice for being a Jackass because everything with LF went down the drain too. That’s going to take endless work just to get her to trust me again and I don’t even know if I care. About all we do now is say “hey” now and then and basically avoid each other all night. I hate it. But I’m kind of a hot mess now anyway, with everything going on with Dad. While it can still get a whole lot worse, I’m frustrated everything else seems to get put on hold. I miss LF but at the same time know I didn’t play my cards exactly right with her either. I pretty much know why. She’s not exactly innocent either but I’ll let her have it because I know it probably felt like I was segueing into something deeper with her that last night, because I held her hand when we were talking. I think she knew I was being serious. Of course it would all back-fire on me. 😑
About the only thing I am doing right these days is really getting along good with my Daughter. I finally caved in and got her a new car. She kind of needs it for College, so now she’s really starting to come around. Plus I’m getting on her a$$ for having a fake ID too. Which is fun because now I have this car as straight leverage. If she messes up, she’s going to really see what my “adulting” her all these years, has been about. She knows this and she’s really being cool about it. She went to Lollapalooza this weekend and sent me all kinds of pics and videos. She had a fun time. I was glad she got there safely. Her friends love the new ride. (Or “whip” as she calls it)
Of course I don’t want her to mess up and I don’t want you to mess things up either Brother. You’ve come too far in your venture with Momma and gotten so far.
I know the memory of LO is a wonderful and beautiful thing. It’s who they are. LO still mesmerizes me. She makes these TikTok vids that are so cute and so pure, I can’t stand it. All of it nothing but pure narcissism, because she’s so obsessed with herself. It’s insane but I could watch them all day and it would never get old. She’s still the most spectacular thing our good God ever created and I swear I’m taking that to the grave. Not a Woman alive today I find more attractive than her. Not one.. 😂
“I don’t want to be this way anymore. I thought that I made it through the rain.”
You’re not. You spent the whole weekend with Momma and there will probably always be little flare ups. You have to redirect and remember what you’ve made now as a result. If LO ever comes back, treat her as a person and not as a LO. I always think about that in case I run into LO. I want to be human to her. Not a fawning, deer-in-headlights, can’t control myself, fool of a Man idiot. Women like confidence. What’s so cool about pedestaling anyway? Guess I need to re-read my own words again up there.. See? I’m still no better. Jokes on me. 😆
You’re very welcome Brother. I’ll be looking forward to that beer one day. Although I’m guessing it probably won’t just be one.
Take care Friend. I’ll talk to you soon.. ✌🏻
New York Time
‘Japanese Walking’ Is a Fitness Trend Worth Trying
The workout is simple, and its health benefits are backed by nearly 20 years of research.
Credit…Nicholas Sansone for The New York Times
By Danielle Friedman
July 31, 2025
Going for a walk is one of the simplest workouts, but it can have powerful health impacts. Walking has been linked to improved mental and cardiovascular health, and it can be effective for managing back pain.
But not all walking is equally effective.
A method nicknamed “Japanese walking” on social media — also known as interval walking training, or I.W.T. — seems to offer greater advantages than a simple stroll, or even than walking at a moderate pace for 8,000 or more steps a day.
The strategy was first introduced two decades ago in a study led by Hiroshi Nose, an exercise physiologist at Shinshu University Graduate School of Medicine in Japan. The country has one of the world’s oldest populations, and Dr. Nose hoped that, by applying interval-training techniques used by elite athletes to its senior community, he could improve older people’s health and reduce the country’s medical costs, he told The New York Times in an email. After seeing promising early results, he and his collaborator, Shizue Masuki, continued to study the method in depth.
While this type of exercise isn’t new, it has been a trend on TikTok this summer. Here’s what the science says about the benefits of interval walking and how to get started.
What is ‘Japanese walking’?
As the name suggests, interval walking is a form of interval training, which involves alternating between bursts of intense activity and more gentle movement or rest. In this case, it’s basically just alternating between fast and slow walking.
But compared with more classic forms of high-intensity interval training, interval walking is more approachable for many people, especially those who haven’t exercised in a while or who are recovering from injuries that make high-impact activities like running difficult, said Dr. Carlin Senter, the chief of primary-care sports medicine at the University of California, San Francisco.
How do you do it?
All you need are comfortable shoes, a safe place to walk and a timer.
In the studies by Drs. Nose and Masuki, subjects typically walked quickly for three minutes and then slowly for three minutes. During fast periods, the idea is to feel as if you’re working somewhat hard, to the point that you would have a hard time carrying on a conversation. The movement during the slow periods should be a gentle stroll. (The researchers capped the fast intervals at three minutes, they said, because that was the point at which many older volunteers started to feel tired.)
They recommend taking longer strides during the fast intervals than during the slow ones, to make the activity more challenging. They also suggest engaging your arms, bending them at the elbows and swinging them vigorously with each step, which will help you maintain proper form during longer strides.
In their studies, volunteers completed at least 30 minutes of interval walking four times a week. If you try it, those 30 minutes don’t have to be continuous. The research suggests that breaking the sessions into roughly 10-minute segments three times a day can be just as effective.
While conducting their research, they found that, by taking regular recovery breaks, many interval walkers spent more time exercising at a high intensity than they would have if they had walked continuously at that intensity, since they tired out sooner when they didn’t have breaks.
What are the health benefits?
In their original study of older adults, which was small, Drs. Nose and Masuki found that interval walkers saw significantly greater improvements in blood pressure, cardiovascular health and leg strength compared with volunteers who walked at a continuous, moderate pace.
In the decade since, a growing body of evidence from Drs. Nose and Masuki and other researchers has reinforced these findings and has suggested the method may have even more benefits. A 2018 study found that, over a 10-year period, interval walking was linked to fewer age-related declines in aerobic capacity and muscle power.
What’s the best way to add interval walking to your exercise routine?
If you haven’t been active in a while, “start low, go slow,” Dr. Senter said. If three minutes feels too long for the faster intervals, start with a minute and work your way up.
Over time, as your fitness improves, you will probably be able to push yourself harder during the fast bouts.
Finally, if interval walking is your main form of exercise, aim to complement it with at least two days a week of strength training, along with balance and mobility training, Dr. Senter said.
“In short, A.I. can bring us useful information, instruction, assistance, entertainment and even comfort. What it cannot bring us is Enlightenment. In fact, it may help drive us further away from Enlightenment than ever.”
******
A.I. Is Shedding Enlightenment Values
Aug. 2, 2025
New York Times
By David A. Bell
Dr. Bell is a professor of history at Princeton.
Will artificial intelligence bring about an intellectual revolution as profound as the Enlightenment? Enthusiasts like to make this claim, and even use the term “second Enlightenment” to describe what A.I. may ultimately generate. As a historian of the original Enlightenment, I’m intrigued by the idea — and I see some similarities. But what a close comparison in fact illuminates is not just how pernicious A.I. can be to intellectual life, but how it can undermine the very principles of the Enlightenment itself.
The parallels are, admittedly, striking. The Enlightenment — the name historians give to the intellectual upheaval that swept across the European world in the 18th century — not only filled supporters with the hope that an Age of Reason was dawning but also led them to see their historical moment as part of an evolution toward a dramatically different, and better, future.
Like the proponents of A.I., with their ceaseless talk of an imminent revolution (“the greatest reshuffling of power in history,” according to the Microsoft A.I. chief executive Mustafa Suleyman), the 18th-century French mathematician and philosopher Jean le Rond d’Alembert spoke of “a watershed in the history of the human mind” being underway and a “revolution” in ideas and history. Denis Diderot, his co-editor on the Enlightenment’s greatest single publishing project, the “Encyclopédie,” boasted of “changing the common way of thinking.”
Enlightenment authors also hoped to advance their goals by providing new ways of organizing human knowledge and conveying it to the public. The “Encyclopédie,” the most creative and original reference work in history, exemplified this ambition. Not only did its 28 volumes, published between 1751 and 1772, contain some 74,000 articles on everything from “Aabam” (an alchemical term for lead) to “Zzuéné” (a city in southern Egypt), it also mapped out a system of human knowledge in a way that deeply challenged earlier, religion-based efforts to do so. Among other things, it relegated knowledge of God to a small branch of its tree and placed theology in the same category as divination and black magic.
The knowledge it mapped out was not just abstract. Today, A.I. enthusiasts burble that with the right prompts, ChatGPT can teach you anything, from a foreign language to auto mechanics to accounting. The “Encyclopédie”’s 11 volumes of plates offered detailed instructions on virtually everything, including how to construct a mirror, furnish a bakery or cast an equestrian statue.
Enlightenment authors, like A.I. commentators, even speculated about blurring the boundary between humans and machines. Some Enlightenment inventors designed fantastically complex automatons — machines that could write, draw and play music. It is no coincidence that Mary Shelley’s 1818 novel “Frankenstein” is often read as a critique of the Enlightenment’s hubris and its supposed attempts to mimic divine creation.
A.I. is already transforming how we learn, as universities rush to incorporate the tool into their teaching. Enthusiasts like my Princeton colleague Graham Burnett integrate it into their courses and speak of how the technology will “reinvent” humanistic education. Enlightenment authors had similarly ambitious goals, sharply criticizing the traditional educational institutions of the day, which were mostly run by churches, and proposing new schemes for instruction at every level, from the crib to the doctorate.
Indeed, one of the most exciting aspects of A.I. is its ability to deliver personalized, interactive instruction on virtually any topic. As Mr. Burnett writes: “I can construct the ‘book’ I want in real time — responsive to my questions, customized to my focus, tuned to the spirit of my inquiry.” Enlightenment authors imagined books in an oddly similar manner: not as didactic tracts, but as sites in which to engage readers in virtual dialogue.
The great political philosopher Baron de Montesquieu wrote: “One should never so exhaust a subject that nothing is left for readers to do. The point is not to make them read, but to make them think.” As for Voltaire, the most famous of the French “philosophes,” he claimed, “The most useful books are those that the readers write half of themselves.” The idea of trying to engage readers actively in the reading process of course dates back to long before the modern age. But it was in the Enlightenment West that this project took on a characteristically modern form: playful, engaging, readable, succinct.
It is here, with this question of engagement, that the comparison between the Enlightenment and A.I.’s supposed “second Enlightenment” breaks down and reveals something important about the latter’s limits and dangers. When readers interact imaginatively with a book, they are still following the book’s lead, attempting to answer the book’s questions, responding to the book’s challenges and therefore putting their own convictions at risk.
When we interact with A.I., on the other hand, it is we who are driving the conversation. We formulate the questions, we drive the inquiry according to our own interests and we search, all too often, for answers that simply reinforce what we already think we know. In my own interactions with ChatGPT, it has often responded, with patently insincere flattery: “That’s a great question.” It has never responded: “That’s the wrong question.” It has never challenged my moral convictions or asked me to justify myself.
And why should it? It is, after all, a commercial internet product. And such products generate profit by giving users more of what they have already shown an appetite for, whether it is funny cat videos, instructions on how to fix small appliances or lectures on Enlightenment philosophy. If I wanted ChatGPT to challenge my convictions, I could of course ask it to do so — but I would have to ask. It follows my lead, not the reverse.
By its nature, A.I. responds to almost any query in a manner that is spookily lucid and easy to follow — one might say almost intellectually predigested. For most ordinary uses, this clarity is entirely welcome. But Enlightenment authors understood the importance of having readers grapple with a text. Many of their greatest works came in the form of enigmatic novels, dialogues presenting opposing points of view or philosophical parables abounding in puzzles and paradoxes. Unlike the velvety smooth syntheses provided by A.I., these works forced readers to develop their judgment and come to their own conclusions.
In short, A.I. can bring us useful information, instruction, assistance, entertainment and even comfort. What it cannot bring us is Enlightenment. In fact, it may help drive us further away from Enlightenment than ever.
Do ya’ll gals know what its like when you’re laying in bed, shorts and tank top and how you’re testing your man’s vigilance to just let you sleep and let you rest?
Okay back to my Simpsons episode.
I seem to be doing slightly better. I have back-slid, and had thought that I had lost all the ground I had gained during the past six months on LWL. But I realized that is not entirely true.
I am still better off than I was six months ago, thanks to Dr. L and all the kind folks here. One of the best things that I have going for me is that LO is extremely neglectful and inattentive. My enthusiasm wanes in the face of his behavior.
He’s a terrible flake and astonishingly selfish. As awful as that is, it works to my advantage in the long run.
Good morning Brother.
Happy Monday to you. I replied to your other post. Hopefully you see it. Just heard this one again on LOs playlist on thought of you because he mentions a Mama.. 😆
In any event, they’re good LO lyrics.
I turn this one up..
Lee Harvey Osmond
“Forty Light Years”
https://youtu.be/6STRd8lib3M?si=_GihI9rYD3oIpeHm
“I’d like to get to know ya
but you’re forty light years away…”
Thinking Is Becoming a Luxury Good
July 28, 2025 / New York Time
By Mary Harrington
Ms. Harrington is a journalist based in Britain.
When I was a kid in the 1980s, my parents sent me to a Waldorf school in England. At the time, the school discouraged parents from allowing their kids to watch too much TV, instead telling them to emphasize reading, hands-on learning and outdoor play.
I chafed at the stricture then. But perhaps they were on to something: Today I don’t watch much TV and I still read a lot. Since my school days, however, a far more insidious and enticing form of tech has taken hold: the internet, especially via smartphones. These days I know I have to put my phone in a drawer or in another room if I need to concentrate for more than a few minutes.
Since so-called intelligence tests were invented around a century ago, until recently, international I.Q. scores climbed steadily in a phenomenon known as the Flynn effect. But there is evidence that our ability to apply that brain power is decreasing. According to a recent report, adult literacy scores leveled off and began to decline across a majority of O.E.C.D. countries in the past decade, with some of the sharpest declines visible among the poorest. Kids also show declining literacy.
Writing in The Financial Times, John Burn-Murdoch links this to the rise of a post-literate culture in which we consume most of our media through smartphones, eschewing dense text in favor of images and short-form video. Other research has associated smartphone use with A.D.H.D. symptoms in adolescents, and a quarter of surveyed American adults now suspect they may have the condition. School and college teachers assign fewer full books to their students, in part because they are unable to complete them. Nearly half of Americans read zero books in 2023.
The idea that technology is altering our capacity not just to concentrate but also to read and to reason is catching on. The conversation no one is ready for, though, is how this may be creating yet another form of inequality.
Think of this by comparison with patterns of junk food consumption: As ultraprocessed snacks have grown more available and inventively addictive, developed societies have seen a gulf emerge between those with the social and economic resources to sustain a healthy lifestyle and those more vulnerable to the obesogenic food culture. This bifurcation is strongly class-inflected: Across the developed West, obesity has become strongly correlated with poverty. I fear that so, too, will be the tide of post-literacy.
Long-form literacy is not innate but learned, sometimes laboriously. As Maryanne Wolf, a literacy scholar, has illustrated, acquiring and perfecting a capacity for long-form “expert reading” is literally mind-altering. It rewires our brains, increasing vocabulary, shifting brain activity toward the analytic left hemisphere and honing our capacity for concentration, linear reasoning and deep thought. The presence of these traits at scale contributed to the emergence of free speech, modern science and liberal democracy, among other things.
The habits of thought formed by digital reading are very different. As Cal Newport, a productivity expert, shows in his 2016 book, “Deep Work,” the digital environment is optimized for distraction, as various systems compete for our attention with notifications and other demands. Social media platforms are designed to be addictive, and the sheer volume of material incentivizes intense cognitive “bites” of discourse calibrated for maximum compulsiveness over nuance or thoughtful reasoning. The resulting patterns of content consumption form us neurologically for skimming, pattern recognition and distracted hopping from text to text — if we use our phones to read at all.
Increasingly, the very act of reading scarcely seems necessary. Platforms such as TikTok and YouTube Shorts offer a bottomless supply of enthralling, short-form videos. These combine with visual memes, fake news, real news, clickbait, sometimes hostile misinformation and, increasingly, a torrent of A.I.-generated slop content. The result is a media environment that seems like the cognitive equivalent of the junk food aisle and is every bit as difficult to resist as those colorful, unhealthy packages.
A classical liberal might retort: Sure, but just as with junk food, it’s up to the individual to make healthy choices. What this fails to take into account, though, is that just like the negative health impacts of junk food overconsumption, the cognitive harms of digital media will be more pronounced at the bottom of the socioeconomic scale.
We see hints of this already. As Dr. Wolf points out, literacy and poverty have long been correlated. Now poor kids spend more time on screens each day than rich ones — in one 2019 study, about two hours more per day for U.S. tweens and teenagers whose families made less than $35,000 per year, compared with peers whose household incomes exceeded $100,000. Research indicates that kids who are exposed to more than two hours a day of recreational screen time have worse working memory, processing speed, attention levels, language skills and executive function than kids who are not.
Bluntly: Making healthy cognitive choices is hard. In a culture saturated with more accessible and engrossing forms of entertainment, long-form literacy may soon become the domain of elite subcultures.
Already, elites, religious groups and conservatives are embracing self-imposed limits on tech use. Between 2019 and 2023, over 250 new classical schools, many of them Christian, opened in America, with an ethos centered on long-form “great books” literacy. New guides and initiatives from this crowd abound, such as the recent book “The Tech Exit: A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens From Smartphones,” by Clare Morell, a fellow at a conservative think tank.
It’s not just conservatives. Tech notables such as Bill Gates and Evan Spiegel have spoken publicly about curbing their kids’ use of screens. Others hire nannies who are required to sign “no phone” contracts, or send their kids to Waldorf schools, where such devices are banned or heavily restricted. The class scissor here is razor-sharp: A majority of classical schools are fee-paying institutions. Shielding your kids from device overuse at the Waldorf School of the Peninsula will set you back $34,000 a year at the elementary grades.
Many U.S. states, including California, are restricting student smartphone use, which in theory ought to level the playing field. But it is optimistic to assume such rules will be enforced with the same determination in small-class private schools as in massive public schools, let alone in these students’ homes.
Even beyond Silicon Valley, some people are limiting digital stimulation (like social media or video games) for set periods of time as part of the self-improvement practice of dopamine fasting.
The ascetic approach to cognitive fitness is still niche and concentrated among the wealthy. But as new generations reach adulthood having never lived in a world without smartphones, we can expect the culture to stratify ever more starkly. On the one hand, a relatively small group of people will retain, and intentionally develop, the capacity for concentration and long-form reasoning. On the other, a larger general population will be effectively post-literate — with all the consequences this implies for cognitive clarity.
What will happen if this becomes fully realized? An electorate that has lost the capacity for long-form thought will be more tribal, less rational, largely uninterested in facts or even matters of historical record, moved more by vibes than cogent argument and open to fantastical ideas and bizarre conspiracy theories. If that sounds familiar, it may be a sign of how far down this path the West has already traveled.
For canny operators, such a public affords new opportunities for corruption. Oligarchs attempting to shape policy to their advantage will benefit from the fact that few will have the attention span to track or challenge policies in dull, technical fields; what a majority now wants is not forensic investigation but a new video short “owning” the other tribe. We can expect the governing class to adapt pragmatically to the electorate’s collective decline in rational capacity, for example, by retaining the rituals associated with mass democracy while quietly shifting key policy areas beyond the reach of a capricious and easily manipulated citizenry. I do not celebrate this, but our net-native youth seem unfazed: International polls show waning support for democracy among Gen Z.
Lest you mistake me, there is no reason the opportunity to sideline the electorate or to arbitrage the gap between vibes and policy should especially favor either the red team or the blue team. This post-literate world favors demagogues skilled at code-switching between the elite language of policy and the populist one of meme-slop. It favors oligarchs with good social media game and those with more self-assurance than integrity. It does not favor those with little money, little political power and no one to speak up for them.
Are Tight Jeans and Cologne Reason Enough to Stop Dating a Nice Man?
A reader is having trouble overlooking certain aspects of the personal presentation of a man whom she otherwise likes quite a lot.
By Philip Galanes
July 30, 2025 / NY Times
I recently started dating a man who is funny and bright. His lifestyle preferences are aligned with mine: We both like splitting our time among New York City, the country and the beach. That combo is hard to find these days! The problem: On our third date, he showed up wearing tight white jeans and cologne, with gel in his hair. I appreciate that he may like this vibe, but it’s not for me. It was also different from his low-key style on our first two dates. I managed to make it through happy hour, but I’ve been sensitive to scent for as long as I can remember. Should I bring up this sensitivity with him or chalk it up to a preference that another woman may like?
DATER
I’m confused. Even if you sort out the cologne — and I believe you have the right to tell this man that you are sensitive to fragrance and to ask him to come unscented to future meetings — that still leaves the white jeans and the hair gel. My impression from your letter is that all three are nonstarters for you. And as much as we might like to, we don’t have the right to micromanage the aesthetic choices of others.
Now, you don’t mention your age or relationship experience, so I am going to tread gently here. Your dating criteria seem a bit shallow to me: Being able to afford an apartment in the city, a country house and beach vacations is not a “lifestyle preference”; it is a socioeconomic condition. And wealth and appearances make poor foundations for good relationships, in my experience.
If this man seems kind and supportive — as well as bright and funny, as you say — try to stay open to him. I know that many of us start concocting romantic fantasies in childhood, and it can be challenging to set aside the surface stuff. But in the end, pants and hair products will not help you through life’s inevitable hardships; a solid partner can. So, speak to him about the cologne and consider being more open-minded about your other objections.
My wife has an allergic reaction to most colognes so I would say that yes it is something that is reasonable to bring up.
His bad taste in fashion and hair? Well I get all kinds of second glances for what I wear. In my opinion no man should be wearing “tight” fitting jeans past 30. If not younger. Dress your age. Conformed or tailored jeans/slacks is different.
I have a tin of pomade. I probably use it, maybe, once a year for very unique occasions. Mostly I pull my hair back in a ponytail and leave it at that. I could care less about my hair other than it being reasonably presentable. Most days, the best I do, like today, is comb it and put a hat on.
On the other hand, my boss (only 7 years younger than me) dresses like he’s still 20. It’s not upsetting, per say, but it definitely broadcast that he is fighting his age. Granted he’s in a bit better shape than I am, since he works out regularly. But t-shirts two sizes too small and skinny jeans 😂
We attended a function together, mutually invited by another co-worker, and clearly the lady (he just went through his second divorce) he brought was much younger than him.
So yeah I agree that ascetics can be off putting, but at the same time we need to look at the person under those ascetics. And this is coming from a man that spent his entire lifetime falling for tomgirls that he hoped(es) someday to see in a dress.
Adam,
ET wore a fitting (slightly tight) jeans and light cologne in his athletic, slim, early 50s body (physique build like 30s or early 40s) was just smashing… I wish you know what the temptation 😵💫 I had to resist…
I disagree with your old-fashioned “rules” about what clothes for what chronological ages; there are people look/shape either two-decade younger/older than their actual age, how should they dress?
If clothes, tight jeans or not, look good/fitting/appropriate to their look and physique, who cares about their gender or age. As the article says, it’s ultimately personality/characters sustain attraction and relationship.
I’m all for wearing what you look good in. I’m 54 and try not to dress or look like it. However I’m not super trendy either. You’ll never see me in skinny jeans or even slightly able to fit in them. Basically I’m simple t-shirts and shorts in the summer and jeans and hoodies in the winter. I’m 6’1, about 235 lbs, and my hair is almost 50/50 gray and brown. If I were to grow my beard out, it would be all gray. So I keep it well trimmed and low cut for a scruffy look. Men should not be dying their hair, past a certain age either. It can be creepy looking imo..
I won’t wear shorts above the knee either. I don’t know who decided that above-the-knee shorts again are cool and in-thing but I think they look positively ridiculous. On almost any Man for that matter. It’s like Dudes in open toed shoes in public. Put those nasty a$$ feet away!! Men do not wear open toed shoes in public. I’m sorry.. That is reserved exclusively and only for the Women. The only place Men are getting an exemption is the Waterpark. But that doesn’t matter to me because my kids are grown and I don’t go to Waterparks anymore.
If you’re a Dude, put some shoes and socks on. Otherwise you’re cancelled.. 😆
MJ brother
Could not agree with you more on the feet and open faced shoes some men wear. Men hide your feet! No one wants to see them. At least here in American where our culture is different than other countries. I don’t even care if you get pedicures, still no one wants to see them. I put shoes and socks on to mow the lawn. I wear socks with my slides if I wear them outside of the house. But us white Americans make a lot of fashion sins.
I also don’t like this fad, that seems to be “in” here in America, where men are buying slacks/chinos that are about one size to short in length and then dress shoes with no socks. Hey no one wants to see your ankles either 🙂 If you are wearing shorts that’s one thing. But even the few times I do leave the house in shorts, I wear socks.
Outside of my teens and early 20’s when I was trying to be cool with fashionable fads with friends, I cared less about fashion through my mid 20’s to my mid 40’s. Then I got this fashion bug that bit me.
MJ,
Could not agree with your more! Even at the beach or the water park, men should be wearing socks and shoes !
You forgot flashy underwear … only if you’re a Chippendales dancer. 🙂
OMG, yes! I don’t want to see a guy’s hairy ankles! Women can get away with it because we usually shave. 🙂
Whatever you wear, best to make it something you look good and feel comfortable in. Trying to look like a teenager in your 50s—no. Wearing something because it looks good on you—yes.
🦇 📕,,
Asians do not usually shave, because we’re almost hairless 😀
When my cute Granny saw my xSO shirtless chest once in the hot kitchen, her face turned red and she covered her eyes immediately, “Aya, it’s like a monkey!” 🙈 In her entire 80 years of life up to that point, she had never seen a Western man with uncovered back and chest…
We all laughed about the Ape SO for ages… 😂
Marcia,
“only if you’re a Chippendales dancer. 🙂”
Even if I were between 20s-40s now, I AM positively certain that I would NOT date any of Chippendales dancers! They are g3/g4; and my Glimmer for any of them is: G1/2. 😀
I guess after all, I’m an inadequate appreciator of your perfect male physiques! (I 👁️ inside of their eyes….👀 )
Snow,
“Even if I were between 20s-40s now, I AM positively certain that I would NOT date any of Chippendales dancers! They are g3/g4; and my Glimmer for any of them is: G1/2. 😀”
I don’t think you “date” them. 🙂
They’re not really my type, either, but if one wanted to do a little dance for me, I ain’t going to stop him. 🙂
But if one wanted to do a little dance for me, I ain’t going to stop him. 🙂
Marcia
Nasty.. 😝
You’d be better off letting me dance for you. 😆
MJ,
“You’d be better off letting me dance for you. 😆”
Something tells me you already have a pair of tear-away pants in your closet. 🙂
“Men hide your feet! No one wants to see them. At least here in American where our culture is different than other countries. I don’t even care if you get pedicures, still no one wants to see them. I put shoes and socks on to mow the lawn. I wear socks with my slides if I wear them outside of the house”
You see this is an interesting one. Here where I am, a guy is far more likely to cop disapproval or mocking comments for wearing socks with shorts (unless it is those small sports socks that only cover the feet). Open toes and the feet showing would be far less offensive than shorts with socks! Must be a cultural difference.
If one of Chippendale dancers wants to dance in front of me, I’d literally run away! Sorry, I simply can’t appreciate that kind of Macho/wild appearance and energy!
On the other hand, I’d enjoy BTS dancing alive in the street in LA — You’ve got to watch it 💗 💕
https://youtu.be/A8KQhwmdZIw?si=XKmhenX80M8W4LZ0
— BTS Performs a Concert in the Crosswalk (The Late Later Show with James Corden)
https://youtu.be/nAwnGAzfRbQ?si=ZItNs77ywuHe3i_l — the coolest groom
Epic Groom Entrance || Don & Don’s Wedding Ceremony.
Snow,
“Sorry, I simply can’t appreciate that kind of Macho/wild appearance and energy!”
It’s not macho. It’s presentational, but it is fun to watch.
Marcia,
Before posting my post, I watched a couple of them… Nope, won’t go to the show even if someone pays the ticket for me.
To me personally (or ethnically), it’s not atheistic, particularly zipping open to show the chests… I’ll watch boyish, feminine, muscleless BTS or that groom — not a professional.
Snow,
“Before posting my post, I watched a couple of them… Nope, won’t go to the show even if someone pays the ticket for me.
To me personally (or ethnically), it’s not atheistic, particularly zipping open to show the chests… I’ll watch boyish, feminine, muscleless BTS or that groom — not a professional”
It’s all the same. It’s just entertainment.
“Something tells me you already have a pair of tear-away pants in your closet. 🙂”
Marcia
I’ll leave that one to your imagination. Although if my Ex were to read that quote from you, she would laugh her a$$ off.. 🕺🤣
MJ,
“I’ll leave that one to your imagination.”
I’ve got “Pony” cued up on my cell phone. Whenever you want to come over. 🙂
“I’ve got “Pony” cued up on my cell phone. Whenever you want to come over. 🙂”
Marcia,
Oooh nice. I’ll stop at the liquor store and get a bottle of wine.. 🍷🍷
Sir 👖 🕺🏿 & Lady 🆒 👒 🍫,
Wow, it’s heating up …. Keep going 🕺🏿 …
I’m eating mint 🍫 and watching my beloved talking, laughing, flying dragon 🐉 (John Hurt’s voice) in “Merlin”, and will get a ride on the magnificent 🐉 !
MJ,
“I’ll stop at the liquor store and get a bottle of wine.”
I don’t drink wine. 🙂
“I don’t drink wine. 🙂”
You’ll want to after seeing these tear-away pants come off.. 😆
MJ,
“You’ll want to after seeing these tear-away pants come off.. 😆”
Are you saying I’ll need to get drunk to get through your dancing? I’m not looking for a comedy show. 🙂
@MJ
“I don’t drink wine. 🙂”
Are you hinting you’re a vampire? 😉
Marcia,
I tried to be diplomatic before, but I’m now “pushed” to say: Chippendales to me is NOT an ENTERTAINMENT, nothing aesthetic about their “uncultured” looks or “inflexible” dancing moves (their muscles are too bulky)…
I can’t bear watching both male or female body-sculpturing shows…
Snow,
“nothing aesthetic about their “uncultured” looks”
Oh, my dear, you’re missing the whole point. It’s NOT supposed to be cultured. 🙂
What’s interesting about the Chippendales … they were started by a straight man who just thought he’d put together a show of male exotic dancers for women. But the show was clunky and unprofessional. It wasn’t enough for the guys to just take their clothes off. So he hired a choreographer — a gay man — to create a show with dancing and characters and costumes and visuals. It took a gay man to understand what women wanted. 🙂
Check out this Western bulky man and athletic woman’s modern dance, there are energetic yet curved movements in their harmonious duel dance — Together yet Independent.
https://youtu.be/nIJfrMFiTXw?si=Mmgz5crrz2q6KmOW — Know | Dimash
Dimash can’t dance as well as BTS, but he’s getting better. He sings in 14 languages.
Marcia,
I agree with you that straight men (the majority) just cannot understand women better than gay men! 😃
I want to see or date someone looking cultured… exotic used to be but no longer appealing to me, but those Chippendales do not look even exotic… but more like shaved ❓ — up to your imagination 🤭
Tbf homosexual men have the lowest divorce rates in the west. So it is clear they know what each other wants. On the opposite end, lesbians have the highest divorce rate. And in the middle is us men trapped in a lesbians’ body trying to figure out wtf you women want.
Why does every conversation I start go off the rails?
Adam 🎩 🍺,
“in the middle is us men trapped in a lesbians’ body trying to figure out wtf you women want.”
Can straight men learn how to communicate more emotionally with women like homosexual men? All it takes is to show more emotional or mental vulnerabilities, instead of this macho prowess or egotism, isn’t it? We have evolved far away from the Stone Age, right?
I don’t know your interactive dynamics with Mamma, could you listen to and talk with her more, like bff?
Personality I think if you get rid of accumulated alcohol toxins in your body, your energy circulation will improve much more. I dated men who drank not even mildly but then could not not function minimally in bed… so disappointing /frustrating…
I can’t meditate if I drink just a half class of wine… because my Q/energy doesn’t listen to my mind…
Sorry to pull your leg,,, 🫂
“Can straight men learn how to communicate more emotionally with women like homosexual men? All it takes is to show more emotional or mental vulnerabilities, instead of this macho prowess or egotism, isn’t it?”
Miss Snow
From what I hear from younger men (being a 48 year old gamer still I talk to a lot of people much younger than me), yes. But that is not what the young modern woman wants. They want to cherry pick what they want from a man and being emotionally vulnerable is ostracized. I do take the internet with a grain of salt but I have heard testimonies on the internet of how messed up the dating pool is for younger men.
Compound that with the fact that younger generations of men in the west are much more open to emotional expression that my generation and older. I can’t give any first hand commentary, obviously, since I am not in the dating game. But I have know some young men on the internet for years and have no reason to doubt what they tell me is true. All one has to look into is stuff like MGTOW and you can see there is a shift in male to female dynamics in the west.
I am fine with being expressive of my emotions with female acquaintances. I do admit to being a bit more stoic than I use to which kind of conflicts with me being emotionally vulnerable. I did that with LO and look what happened with that. I tend to be very neutral to save myself from myself. Like my co-worker that invited my wife and I to her vow renewal. Something I was totally surprised she did. I was totally taken aback because I never thought I registered as anything more than a co-worker. The stoic in me “don’t read into it too much Adam.” Perhaps it is my inability to make friends (outside of online) as an adult.
Limerence has taught to always be on guard. Not because I desire any romantic or sexual relationship with any of my female acquaintances but because my own expressive emotions with them can misplace me in my dynamics with them. So I have to keep female relationships at an arms reach.
I’m post above was more of a lament that I can’t figure them out. I don’t understand women’s motives. Women are certainly, for the most part, better at expressing themselves emotionally than most men. But their motives they make a guessing game of it. At least here in the west. I don’t know if it’s our, mostly, Judeo-Christian upbringing of most Americans, or just our societal constructs in general. I would honestly love to come visit the east and see how different it is there.
So I have decided that stoicism is my safety net in regards to female relationships outside of Momma, of course. Maybe, like I said earlier in this post, it’s a shift in dynamics between males and females with the new generations. And that is probably reflected in that everyone I work with, but one salesman, is substantially younger than I am. To the point that the new gal we hired, I am second guessing my usual tradition of visiting in person when we get a new hire. I don’t like phone calls. I don’t think you really “meet” someone until you see and talk to them in person.
I guess all this rambling is me saying I am lost in time. I don’t understand the world and the people in it anymore. And I think I am too old to start trying. 🙂
When my boss explains to all the new hires in the 6 years I’ve been at the job that I am old-fashioned, overly polite, a man of his time, or old-hat (which haha cause I wear hats all the time) I know my time to be understood is over. And maybe my time for understanding women is over too. This is why I like my conversations with you. I don’t have to guess to understand you because you state it bluntly.
The dating pool across the board for men absolutely sucks at any age. It isn’t just younger men struggling or experiencing this phenomenon.
To quote Ms. Snow, she asks, “Can straight men learn how to communicate more emotionally with women like homosexual men? All it takes is to show more emotional or mental vulnerabilities, instead of this macho prowess or egotism”
From what I have noticed, it does not matter how emotionally connected I decide to get with a Woman because the minute I do, I’m suspected of being cringe and developing feelings that resemble love-bombing. I’m not supposed to go there. It’s like Women are constantly screaming at the top of the mountains, they’re not being understood. Yet the second we try to understand them, we are kicked to the curb. The vibe I get from a lot of Women is, stay in your lane. I may talk to you. I may even like you. Give you some of my time. But don’t you dare cross lanes and get too fresh with any of your so-called feelings for me. I don’t want to hear it. I’ll decide what I want, how I want it and when I want it. This usually applies when a Woman is on the fence or just not into us completely.
To quote Brother Adam “They want to cherry pick what they want from a man and being emotionally vulnerable is ostracized.” That is exactly how it is. The moment we talk about anything beyond her comfort zone, is the moment she begins to dislike us. This can become as ridiculous as responding to a txt from her waaay too soon. I experienced this all the time with LF and was even chided once for sending a txt that wished her and her Mom a nice weekend at the Winery. Like literally, “why did you send that txt MJ?” That’s too nice. Too sweet. Just gtfo.. We have to feel every situation out when dealing with a Woman. The moment we start thinking we have them figured out, is the moment the channel changes and we have to start all over again. It’s like everything us older Dudes were taught, has to all be thrown in the trash and figure things out in an opposite way.
Had I known this is how the field would be pre-divorce, I would have probably done one whole hell of a lot less to keep things from going post-divorce..
Sounds like all the more reason to date in one’s own age group. 😛 I hear about things like this and I have no idea what the younger generations want. Like I loved the flirty culture in my workplace in the late 90s/early 00s, but apparently you’re not supposed to do that anymore. And somehow it’s not seen as possible for a young woman to have a crush on someone in power over her or much older, but the man being predatory, even though I remember having crushes like that when I was young. Even someone not that much younger than me posted on Facebook recently, Don’t tell a woman she looks younger than her age! And I thought, Actually, I LOVE being told I look younger! Things like that.
I have to agree with what Adam, MJ and Serial have said.
Men (collective) have been kicked about and their reputation tarnished and demonised for the last 15 years or so.
To be clear – I’m honestly not saying some of that isn’t deserved. The bad actions of some men got ‘man’ a bad name. Because that relates to toxic masculinity, most all signs of ‘traditional’ masculinity are now under scrutiny.
What I am saying that the outcome is that the map has been torn up. Many things that men once thought they knew – the ‘rules’ of flirting, dating etc, are obsolete. Young men are walking around on eggshells all the time. I’m not in the dating pool, but I see this often. I would hate to be a young man in the dating pool these days. MJ’s testimony above suggests this affects not only young men. Nobody at any age really seems sure what to do anymore.
I don’t know if this goes any way to explaining why the author of the NYT article is finding hetero men so disillusioning. It feels like there’s been a real paradigm shift, and the clues are all there as to why it happened. Maybe it is what younger people want, but to anyone over the age of about 40 it can feel like we are in very strange dating territory.
MJ,
“From what I have noticed, it does not matter how emotionally connected I decide to get with a Woman because the minute I do, I’m suspected of being cringe and developing feelings that resemble love-bombing. I’m not supposed to go there. It’s like Women are constantly screaming at the top of the mountains, they’re not being understood. Yet the second we try to understand them, we are kicked to the curb. ”
So all of this is predicated on the fact of … is she attracted to you? I’m just being honest. It don’t think it’s any different for men. If she’s attracted to you, she’ll give you a pretty wide leeway.
It’s like a woman saying she wants a kind guy or a funny guy or a supportive guy. She’s not lying … but she left out the most important thing. She’s got to be attracted to him first.
Dame Marcia
I think what the problem is, how can a man figure out if a woman is attracted to him if she wants to play mind games or keep him on the back burner like MJ’s LF? They show you attention, time, and consideration like, giving off the vibe that they might be attracted to you. Maybe they are just after validation but don’t want to commit to dating? So they string you along, until, like MJ said, you try to cross the lane from acquaintances to something more. And then it is a whole new ball game.
All I know is, if something happens to my marriage for whatever reason, I will stay single. Not even dipping my toes in the cold water of western dating.
Sir Adam,
“I think what the problem is, how can a man figure out if a woman is attracted to him if she wants to play mind games or keep him on the back burner like MJ’s LF? ”
Not to be snarky, but you answered your own question. Anyone who’s doing this stuff is not serious. If someone really wants you and has intention, you’ll know. I think this is true for both sides. If you’re wondering … you’re already behind the 8 ball.
Sir 🎩 🍺,
When I responded your previous post, I had your Mamma in mind, since you talked about some physical intimacy difficult with her. I wasn’t thinking about young women under 30 like your and MJ’s LO or LF.
Please stop referring yourself as an old man, despite you have some old-fashioned concept and courtesy. In my town, the middle age, especially for men, is 53~55. 💪
“I do take the internet with a grain of salt but I have heard testimonies on the internet of how messed up the dating pool is for younger men.”
I don’t read internet news or gossips, and haven’t dated men of any age for over 1.5 decades, so have little ideas or first-hand experience what’s going on outside my home and work. 😇
“All one has to look into is stuff like MGTOW and you can see there is a shift in male to female dynamics in the west.”
What is MGTOW? 🧐
“I do admit to being a bit more stoic than I use to which kind of conflicts with me being emotionally vulnerable. “…
“The stoic in me “don’t read into it too much Adam.”
“Stoic” or “stoic”? Big S in Stoicism is not the same as small s in stoic, I’m uncertain about your self assessment above. 🤔
“…because my own expressive emotions with them can misplace me in my dynamics with them. “
Are you equaling your expressive LE emotions to an extra dose of femininity in “normal” straight men? They’re not the same thing in my experiences. I’ve had several gay friends and gay co-workers, they’re in every workplace in my town. 😀
“I don’t understand women’s motives. Women are certainly, for the most part, better at expressing themselves emotionally than most men. “
Slow down your horse here: women, like men, are very different, there are no universal emotions and mentalities within women (men). Haven’t you seen some differences even in two INFP sisters here in LwL? Imagine women/men in different MBTI boxes? 😉
“But their motives they make a guessing game of it. At least here in the west.”
You mean Western women are all more or less the same, making “guessing game” for men? 😳
“I don’t know if it’s our, mostly, Judeo-Christian upbringing of most Americans, or just our societal constructs in general. “
I suspect your Christian traditions has a very important impact to your (collective) upbringing, just like basic Buddhistic ones on us. (COO Red culture is another matter).
“I would honestly love to come visit the east and see how different it is there.”
Then I recommend to go to Japan, Korea, Thailand, Taiwan, avoiding the Red COO who has its communist, anti-humanity culture. You’d learn worse stuff in COO like in North Korea. 😓
“So I have decided that stoicism is my safety net in regards to female relationships outside of Momma, of course. “
Which part of safe “stoicism” you’re referring to here? I’m very specific in this practice.
“I guess all this rambling is me saying I am lost in time. I don’t understand the world and the people in it anymore. And I think I am too old to start trying. 🙂”
Please ttop talking being “too old” 😠❗️ if you’re old, where I am supposed to be, in a graveyard? 😉 As soon as one thinks he’s too old to try anything, he begins aging; a spiritual not a chronological age makes one young or old, I wish you had met my spirited Granny at age of 100 and a 99 yrs old inmate when I was hospitalized after Lymphoma surgery, she sounded like in her 50s looked like in her 60s, so loudly and feisty; all nurses came to chat with her. I took a picture of her when she was sleeping.
“I know my time to be understood is over. And maybe my time for understanding women is over too. “
I disagree with you here — 📣 your time is NOT over yet! Even from another culture, I feel I understand your mindset (not all); do you understand mine? I’m a trans-cultural bird 🐦🔥, it’s challenge and fun to give her a shot ❗️🙃 🤭
“This is why I like my conversations with you. I don’t have to guess to understand you because you state it bluntly.”
Thank you for a big compliment! 🙏 I hated wasting my time and brain to play mental or emotional games since young — too Self-focused, and was often quite straightforward to the point of being thought “offensive”. I was/am an odd ball — a lone wolf, in both cultures… 😊
Sir 👖 🕺🏿 :
I’m totally agree with Marcia’s comments in response to your comments: if a woman really likes you, she’d listen to whatever you want to say/shout/cry out….
Also, your game-playing LF does not represent the rest of women in America or in your town…. There are some good women out there, it’s fate that you haven’t run into them. Didn’t you say a new female co-worker just “landed”?
Listen to you Dame Marcia, walk tall in your own lane, never ORBIT around any woman no matter how attractive she may appear and how much you just want a cup of coffee with her…
“So all of this is predicated on the fact of … is she attracted to you? I’m just being honest.”
I don’t know if it’s predicated on anything. Women have access to validation all the time, being on their phones. I think she probably does have to have somewhat a modicum of attraction but it isn’t mandatory. Some Women are probably just more vicious, don’t care and simply crave attention. In that case, attraction doesn’t matter. They’re getting live-action validation.
You said yourself you didn’t think LF was plotting anything vicious towards me. That both of us were getting something from the friendship and I agree.
Where it goes off the rails is when I would continuously go out of my way for her, make it way way more than obvious I was interested, even allude to it when I would ask her out. But then almost go so far as to become offended I would dare show any slight bit of interest in stepping things up. Like what part of asking her out didn’t she get?? Just a little more of her time is all I was hoping for and hardly asking for commitment.
“Listen to you Dame Marcia, walk tall in your own lane, never ORBIT around any woman no matter how attractive she may appear and how much you just want a cup of coffee with her…”
Snow,
I’m working on it Dear.
Thank you for the reminder.. 😁
MJ, Buddy,
” Like what part of asking her out didn’t she get??”
People do what they want.
Sorry. Don’t mean to be irritating. But it’s true.
MJ, Marcia, Adam, et.al., This is one topic that we seem to go around circles in. I think what people sometimes interpret as “playing games” is just the other person not being interested in anything romantic, but not wanting to hurt the other person’s feelings.
Sometimes that’s necessary when you e.g. have to work together. We’re basically being polite and helping you save face by being friendly but side-stepping your advances.
Where we get into trouble is if the interested party is slow in revealing their romantic interest – or we don’t believe they’re seriously interested (vs just flirting for the fun of it).
Slowly the interested party falls in deeper while we’re just innocently enjoying the friendship/flirting/attention/whatever. In my opinion, the majority of us don’t play games for the sake of playing games. Only immature people (say, teenagers) do.
Personally, I really don’t enjoy attention from men I’m not attracted to. Because things can get awkward fast – them thinking I’m interested and then starting to ask me out, etc.
🍨
Can’t agree with you more. 🤗
How is going with your MR?
Snow, thanks for asking.
In the meanwhile MR and I have had plenty of ups and downs. We’ve dated for three months now. I think the main thing with us still being together is that we’ve both been very open-minded and open to each other and to the experience. We’re very different people and we’ve laughed that we’re lucky that we didn’t meet in our twenties! (I wouldn’t have been impressed with him.)
I feel like I’ve lucked out with him in many ways. He really listens and tries to support me. He’s very open with his emotions and makes me feel like the most beautiful girl in the world. This from a self-confessed former player (but that was ages ago).
I think that since we’re older, we’re also better at working through initial difficulties and not as quick to give up. Like you hear about people dating on the apps, having a list of qualities for their date to fulfill… And if they don’t fulfill them, moving on to the next.
That doesn’t mean that we don’t still have obstacles. There are some tough ones and who knows if we’ll overcome them or not. But we’re enjoying the time together for what it is.
So at the risk of annoying you, I have to say: Don’t dis the apps completely – despite their faults, they’re the most effective way of meeting new people these days. It’s going to be the same people you’d see (or not see, if the stars don’t align or if they’re homebodies) at the grocery store, in bars, running in the park, etc. But the app is a way of connecting with them.
I hope all is well with you!
Trifles,
“Where we get into trouble is if the interested party is slow in revealing their romantic interest – or we don’t believe they’re seriously interested (vs just flirting for the fun of it).”
Which is why it’s best to make one’s interest known pretty quickly and also definitively. Ask them out and be clear it’s a date. And doing this once is enough.
“Slowly the interested party falls in deeper while we’re just innocently enjoying the friendship/flirting/attention/whatever. In my opinion, the majority of us don’t play games for the sake of playing games. Only immature people (say, teenagers) do.”
I don’t think most people are intentionally being manipulative, but sometimes they’re hard to pin down or are unreliable or dodgy. And it is selfish.
🍨,
I’m so glad to hear about your story with MR!
“In the meanwhile MR and I have had plenty of ups and downs. “
IMO, it’s much better to go through ups and downs earlier than later, so you could quickly learn about each other in more authentic colors, instead of illusions or imaginations.
“I think the main thing with us still being together is that we’ve both been very open-minded and open to each other and to the experience.”
This is the best part I like to hear: open-minded and open hearted to “the experience” — take and enjoy the journey itself despite its ups and downs.
“ We’re very different people and we’ve laughed that we’re lucky that we didn’t meet in our twenties! (I wouldn’t have been impressed with him.)”
Two very similar people might make each other bored quickly, in my imagination. I certainly don’t want to be dating like in my twenties — so blindly naive, mentally wishful, psychologically ignorant, and emotionally immature….
“He’s very open with his emotions and makes me feel like the most beautiful girl in the world.
You’re so lucky to have met a man who is openly affectionate and emotionally expressive!
“I think that since we’re older, we’re also better at working through initial difficulties and not as quick to give up.”
Our age and maturity have become strength and our allies in working with and building any solid friendship/relationship.
“Like you hear about people dating on the apps, having a list of qualities for their date to fulfill… And if they don’t fulfill them, moving on to the next.”
That’s catalogue shopping, like buying shirts or dresses.
“That doesn’t mean that we don’t still have obstacles. There are some tough ones and who knows if we’ll overcome them or not. But we’re enjoying the time together for what it is.”
There is NOT any arena in life that does not have obstacles! I think challenges in relationship are most motivating for many people, since its possible fruition is the sweetest and most fulfilling in whole galaxy🌌 ‼️
“I have to say: Don’t dis the apps completely – despite their faults, they’re the most effective way of meeting new people these days. “
Thank you for encouraging me. But NO, no, no, no to dating apps for me, any and all of them❗️I can be really stubborn!
I’m only interested in meeting new people in my active living, not in “catalogues. “. It’s not a project, but a ‘side effect” of me doing something else.
“It’s going to be the same people you’d see (or not see, if the stars don’t align or if they’re homebodies) at the grocery store, in bars, running in the park, etc.”
This noon as I was walking across our biggest park, and had Glimmered at a young, handsome man rolling his own wheel chair. We exchanged a smile, I felt Glimmer in my head — he looked sweet, very literary. He looked familiar — my type? 🤔
For the next few minutes, I was imagining to push that wheel chair, chatting with him about books.… It would be romantic to bump into one’s Glimmer in a park, wouldn’t it? 😊
“I hope all is well with you!”
I’m still recovering from the surgery, waiting for my surgeon to clear me up (on 8/19) for strengthening exercises and physical therapy.
Please drop by from time to time to tell us how is going with your romantic life! 🫂
******
🆒 👒 🍫 ,
Yesterday evening I tutored my new Glimmer guy with his partner for the 3rd time. His glimmer has dropped from g6 to g3, and my Glimmer dropped to G0/1❗️ You see, my frequent analysis with you on my g/G stuff CAN really downgrade or just kill Glimmer degrees!
After bumping into the wheel chair young man in the park, I went shopping and saw that curly hair Cutie Joe again; he’s g4 now with my G0! — no longer like a walking painting I envisioned the first time I encountered him last September (?).
Our rational mind could be VERY, very powerful, at least mine — an expert in KILLing unwanted Glimmer❗️ I hope your analytical Mind could/would kick LO-lite out of your head SOON! 🫂
Marcia,
“I don’t think most people are intentionally being manipulative, but sometimes they’re hard to pin down or are unreliable or dodgy. And it is selfish.”
Earlier on you said to Brother MJ: “People just do what they want”, like it is a fact of life that we (collective) have to accept. But here you are sort of acknowledging that that kind of behaviour is selfish and dodgy. I suppose your two statements can sort of still fit together … but if you apply your logic here to his LF … if she didn’t want to be selfish, wouldn’t the right thing to do have been not to string him along and lap up his attention for all that time? And he is right to feel aggrieved?
LaR,
“People just do what they want”, like it is a fact of life that we (collective) have to accept. But here you are sort of acknowledging that that kind of behaviour is selfish and dodgy. ”
They’re two separate things. If people want to pick up on your signals and say yes and hang out with you and whatever else with you, they will. She’s done all those things with the married guy. Because she wanted to. I’m not trying to be harsh, but if she gets an offer she wants, it seems she’ll take it.
“I suppose your two statements can sort of still fit together … but if you apply your logic here to his LF … if she didn’t want to be selfish, wouldn’t the right thing to do have been not to string him along and lap up his attention for all that time?”
I don’t think she’ s stringing him along. She’s never agreed to do anything with him outside of work. To my knowledge. Unless I’m wrong. They’re not dating. She’s not done anything physical with him.
” And he is right to feel aggrieved?”
Maybe aggrieved that she gives him indefinite answers about hanging out. But I’m sorry. That is an answer in itself.
I have a female friend who is dodgy/hard to pin down. She’ll say yes to plans and then starts backing out 2 days before the event, sometimes keeping me hanging about whether or not we’re going until the last minute. I stopped making plans with her.
It’s selfish of her, but isn’t it kind of on me if I keep making plans with her?
We still text occasionally, but I’m not going to put too much effort/energy into the friendship.
Marcia,
About that friend, you’re right. The saying is “first time, shame on you, second time, shame on me”. Many people I know have a ‘three strikes and you’re out’ rule for that kind of behaviour.
I think I get your explanation for the other part, though not quite the analogy. Let me stop talking about other people and bring it back to my favourite ‘focused subject’ to check. Your argument would boil down to – LO has never said to me “stay in your lane” because I have never tried to change lanes? And despite how my head might have sometimes seen it, or wanted to, nor has she tried to change lanes?
LaR,
“Many people I know have a ‘three strikes and you’re out’ rule for that kind of behaviour.”
It was a general example. Could be friendship. Could be a romantic situation. I wouldn’t ask someone out 3 times who gave me a vague answer or kept rescheduling. And sometimes someone being vague is their attempt of putting up a boundary that they won’t do any more. It can be confusing because it sounds so indefinite. But I read somewhere that there are no such things as mixed signals. Mixed signals are bad signals.
” Let me stop talking about other people and bring it back to my favourite ‘focused subject’ to check.”
Yourself? 🙂
Miss Snow
“What is MGTOW?”
It is an acronym for “men going their own way”. A movement of men giving up on romantic relationships and moving forward on bettering themselves instead of seeking the outside validation of women. Which to me, besides some splintering outliners like incels, is a very positive thing. Everyone, men and women should be at the best that they can be for themselves before attempting a LTR.
““Stoic” or “stoic”? Big S in Stoicism is not the same as small s in stoic, I’m uncertain about your self assessment above.”
I didn’t know that there was a difference. Maybe “s”toic being that I am just now reading up/watching videos on it. I don’t agree with a whole lot of it. Some of it sounds a bit “standoffish” to rude. I do like the stoic ideas of taking time on yourself not being selfish. I tend to prioritize everyone else but myself. And when I do try self care I feel selfish. But I have been doing better with that. I have been spending a couple hours a day in solitude for the last few months to reflect on myself and my life and it has been helping me greatly.
“Are you equaling your expressive LE emotions to an extra dose of femininity in “normal” straight men?”
No just my normal feminine side. I have more femineity in me than I would say most heterosexual men do. I prefer the company of women for the most part. I enjoy women’s fashion as much as I do men’s. I enjoy tasks, though they are more fun to me, like styling my wife’s hair, or just combing it for her, paint her fingers and toes. If anything I stunted my feminine side around LO and tried to be the typic masculine guy. You know; gorilla beating his chest.
“You mean Western women are all more or less the same, making “guessing game” for men?”
There is saying, once again taking the internet with a grain of salt, that goes around about modern western women; “women will sacrifice their family for their happiness, men will sacrifice their happiness for their family.” I know it sounds a bit incel or neckbeard, but divorce rates and settlements in said divorces, women having children with multiple men, while the married man doesn’t know they are not. Just watched a newscast (though I can not remember where, somewhere on the east coast I think) of a man finding out all three of “his” children weren’t his. They were by other men. Unfortunately he snapped, went to his wife’s work and shot her.
To Be A Man –Dax
https://youtu.be/tHxip2x-PLc?si=e6JSAEu2fvD8fBu0
“Which part of safe “stoicism” you’re referring to here? I’m very specific in this practice.”
Not letting the emotions of others effect my reactions. I don’t want to be like I was with LO. Her every word, every actions, every emotion, every breath effected my reactions and responses. I don’t want to be like that anymore. With anyone. I’m trying to learn not to seek outside validation. To look into myself before I react, if I react at all. Sometimes no reaction is needed because there is nothing to gain for myself by said reaction. Like my boss still trying to push my buttons about LO. I don’t want to be that person anymore. I don’t want to be a cold a$$hole but I don’t want to be a doormat either.
“I disagree with you here — 📣 your time is NOT over yet! Even from another culture, I feel I understand your mindset (not all); do you understand mine? I’m a trans-cultural bird 🐦🔥, it’s challenge and fun to give her a shot ❗️🙃 🤭”
I know what I think about my age is self-depreciating. I am trying to work better at that. I think one part of my mid-life crisis is my change in fashion. I feel amazing in my new skin and I can tell it is having a positive affect on my attitude.
A funny story; this past Sunday at service, the youth pastor gave the sermon, as last week was youth camp all week. He was talking about how we need to “wear” our faith. So that people can see our service and faith to God and Jesus. He said “We all need to wear our faith outwardly like Adam does his fashion sense without shame or fear.” Didn’t really like being the center of attention out of nowhere but I got his point. 🙂
“Thank you for a big compliment!”
You are quite welcome Miss Snow. I may not comment on all your posts but I do read 90% of them. The other 10% is Sammy and your back and forths. 🙂 Sometimes they are too much for me. You two have a chemistry like no one else.
“Listen to you Dame Marcia, walk tall in your own lane, never ORBIT around any woman no matter how attractive she may appear and how much you just want a cup of coffee with her…”
LO has (and hopefully will be) been the only woman in my life to turn me upside down. And while I understand limerence and how and why it comes about, I still don’t know why in particular it was her. I can become infatuated with a woman, but it is usually innocent and fades. Whether it is because I or they are unavailable, or, when I was single, it just faded organically because they didn’t share the same feelings as me.
Miss Snow
Thank you for your thoughts and the quotes from the three very well versed men that had a really good outlook on life.
I particularly like these three …
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
“Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.”
“Be tolerant with others and strict with yourself.”
They are things I think that I am really practicing in life. And have been most of my life. The latter to a detrimental degree, I think, sometimes in my life.
Whereas these are ones that I need to work on …
“You have power over your mind – not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.”
“Do every act of your life as if it were your last.”
I beat myself up for years that I couldn’t make her work environment where she would have stayed. Not just because it was LO but I do it with all the women that have come and gone in the company. I feel a personal responsibility to make their work environment comfortable. But I have to let go that I can’t control everything. Somethings are out of my control. And I have accept that. And through situations like LO, I am trying to learn to.
Maybe I need to read direct from the source. I’ve always been kind of “on the fence” with some of the stoic youtube videos. I think the western world has rather, tainted(?) view on stoicism compared to the east.
But thank you the quotes. That gives me three different men whose works I can read. Marcus Auerlius’ Mediations is available on amazon. Seems to be a good place to get a more direct take on stoicism. Kind of like being “taught” philosophy as oppose to reading Nietzshce, Kant, Dostoevsky and Sartre. Though I will admit I was in over my head with Kant. That man’s mind was amazingly difficult mind to understand.
I know he is not a philosopher but I like reading anything I can of Sigmund Freud as well. I have a few of his books at home as well.
Adam 🎩 🍺 ,
I think your understanding of Stoicism is slightly different from mine — one can be kind, charming and compassionate while being Stoic, not stoic — meaning serious, stern, standoffish, etc. Being Stoic is an inner attitude and mindsets (REACTIONS) towards others, the world at large.
My favorite Stoic philosophers are Epictetus (a slave) and Marcus Aurelius (emperor), and Seneca (statesman, dramatist). I’m presenting some of their iconic quotes (from AI) which took me more than 6 years to practice and understand —
******
Epictetus, a prominent Stoic philosopher, offered numerous insightful quotes focused on virtue, reason, and personal responsibility.
Some notable quotes include: “It is not things themselves that disturb men, but their judgments about these things,” “Make the best use of what is in your power, and take the rest as it occurs,” and “Freedom is the only worthy goal in life. It is won by disregarding things that lie beyond our control,” according to the Stoic app. These quotes emphasize the importance of focusing on what we can control (our thoughts and actions) and accepting what we cannot (external events).
Here are some more quotes from Epictetus:
“Only the educated are free.”
This quote highlights the value of knowledge and understanding in achieving true freedom, suggesting that education empowers individuals to make informed choices.
“If you wish to be good, first believe that you are bad.”
This quote emphasizes the importance of self-reflection and recognizing one’s flaws as a starting point for self-improvement.
“He is a wise man who does not grieve for the things which he has not, but rejoices for those which he has.”
This quote encourages gratitude and contentment with what one possesses rather than dwelling on what is lacking.
“It is not the man who has too little, but the man who craves more, that is poor.”
This quote emphasizes that contentment and happiness are not determined by material wealth, but by one’s attitude and desires.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
This quote highlights the importance of listening and learning from others.
“First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.”
This quote encourages living with intention and aligning one’s actions with their goals.
Epictetus’s quotes offer timeless wisdom on how to live a more fulfilling and virtuous life by focusing on what is within our control and accepting what is not. “
*********
Marcus Aurelius, the Roman Emperor and Stoic philosopher, left behind a wealth of wisdom in his personal journal, Meditations. Some of his most famous quotes emphasize self-control, perspective, and living in accordance with nature. Key themes include the importance of inner strength, the fleeting nature of life, and the power of one’s own thoughts and actions.
Here are some notable quotes from Marcus Aurelius:
On Self-Control and Inner Strength:
“You have power over your mind – not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.”
“Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one.”
“The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury.”
“Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.”
“It is not death that a man should fear, but he should fear never beginning to live.”
“The soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts.”
On Perspective and Living in Harmony with Nature:
“Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking.”
“The universe is change; our life is what our thoughts make it.”
“Dwell on the beauty of life.”
“Look back over the past, with its changing empires that rose and fell, and you can foresee the future, too.”
“Nothing happens to any man that he is not formed by nature to bear.”
On Action and Virtue:
“If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it.”
“Do every act of your life as if it were your last.”
“Be tolerant with others and strict with yourself.”
“The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.”
******
Seneca the Younger, a Roman Stoic philosopher, offers timeless wisdom on life, virtue, and adversity. Some of his most notable quotes emphasize the importance of living in the present, the value of adversity, and the power of self-control. His writings encourage a focus on what is within our control, acceptance of what is not, and a dedication to living a virtuous life.
Here are some of Seneca’s most famous quotes with brief explanations:
On Living a Meaningful Life:
“We suffer more in imagination than in reality.”
This quote highlights the tendency of the mind to exaggerate potential problems and anxieties. By focusing on the present moment, we can reduce unnecessary suffering caused by our thoughts.
“It is not that we have a short time to live, but that we waste a lot of it.”
This quote, from On the Shortness of Life, emphasizes the importance of prioritizing and making the most of our time. We often fritter away our time on things that don’t truly matter, leaving us feeling like life is too short.
“He who is brave is free.”
This quote connects courage with freedom, suggesting that true freedom comes from confronting our fears and acting in accordance with our values.
“Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for a kindness.”
This quote emphasizes the importance of compassion and empathy, highlighting that even in the simplest interactions, we can choose to be kind.
On Facing Adversity:
“Every new beginning comes from some other beginning’s end.”
This quote, often paraphrased, speaks to the cyclical nature of life and the inevitability of change. It suggests that endings are not truly final, but rather lead to new opportunities.
“The good things which belong to prosperity are to be wished; but the good things that belong to adversity are to be admired.”
This quote contrasts the fleeting nature of external goods with the internal strength developed through adversity. Stoicism teaches that virtue is cultivated through challenges, making adversity a valuable teacher.
“No tree becomes rooted and sturdy unless many a wind assails it.”
This quote uses a metaphor to illustrate how facing challenges strengthens our character and resilience.
“As long as you live, keep learning how to live.”
This quote underscores the lifelong journey of self-improvement and the continuous process of learning and adapting.
On Virtue and Self-Control:
“Most powerful is he who has himself in his own power.”
This quote emphasizes the importance of self-mastery and self-control as a source of strength and freedom.
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare; it is because we do not dare that things are difficult.”
This quote challenges us to confront our fears and take action, suggesting that our perceived obstacles often stem from a lack of courage.
“The wise man is content with his lot, whatever it may be, without wishing for what he has not.”
This quote emphasizes the importance of contentment and gratitude, suggesting that true happiness comes from appreciating what we have rather than constantly seeking more.
“Anger, if not restrained, is frequently more hurtful to us than the injury that provokes it.”
This quote highlights the detrimental effects of anger and the importance of self-regulation. Stoicism teaches that we should not allow our emotions to control us.
“No man ought to glory except in that which is his own.”
Adam 🎩 🍺,
I like most of Stoic quotes and put them in my Daily Philosophy Meditation Reminder to frequently check, in case my mind has habitually slipped elsewhere.
“I beat myself up for years that I couldn’t make her work environment where she would have stayed. Not just because it was LO but I do it with all the women that have come and gone in the company. I feel a personal responsibility to make their work environment comfortable. But I have to let go that I can’t control everything. Somethings are out of my control. And I have accept that. And through situations like LO, I am trying to learn to.”
You’ve got it right ! — everything you said here is out of your control, you’ll have to LET IT ALL GO. Getting LO out of your head is not easy task, but I believe you’ll get there.
“Maybe I need to read direct from the source. I’ve always been kind of “on the fence” with some of the stoic youtube videos. I think the western world has rather, tainted(?) view on stoicism compared to the east.”
Stoicism is from Ancient Greece, from the West. Some of its philosophical beliefs echo some of Buddhistic beliefs; so COO folks have an easy time to adopt your western Stoicism, although they rarely heard of that term even up to today. We lived through it under the extremely oppressive Big Brother system.
“But thank you the quotes. That gives me three different men whose works I can read. Marcus Auerlius’ Mediations is available on amazon. Seems to be a good place to get a more direct take on stoicism. “
You can get entire Marcus Aurelius’ “meditation” book for free in Youtube or on Kindle. There are a lot of resources on original Stoicism online.
“Kind of like being “taught” philosophy as oppose to reading Nietzsche, Kant, Dostoevsky and Sartre. “
If still in college, students would need to learn how to read, analyze and understand any subjects. As adults with lived experiences, we have life-trained mind to understand some philosophies.
“Though I will admit I was in over my head with Kant. That man’s mind was amazingly difficult mind to understand.”
I’m not a Kant’s fan. He’s too hard to read for me.
“I know he is not a philosopher but I like reading anything I can of Sigmund Freud as well. I have a few of his books at home as well.”
I avoid reading Freud who over emphasizes on libido, but focus on Jung’s individuation. Here are a brief summarization of 4 giant psychologists and their works — the shortcomings:
1. Darwinian pressure (to survive).
2. Freudian Libido (narrower definition) for narcissistic gratification.
3. Adlerian power drive destroys homeostatic psychosocial relating in families, in relationships, and in the culture.
4. Jung overwhelms individual personality.
The above is quoted from — “Jung To Live By”. (Online and in Liverpool, UK)
Sir 🎩 🍺,
[What is MGTOW?”]
“It is an acronym for “men going their own way”. A movement of men giving up on romantic relationships and moving forward on bettering themselves instead of seeking the outside validation of women. “
I see. Does bettering oneself need to give up on romantic relationship? I agree that seeking external validation of both men and women is a sign of mental/emotional “insecurity”, which I see here in LwL, in from subtle to obvious degrees.
“Which to me, besides some splintering outliners like incels, is a very positive thing. Everyone, men and women should be at the best that they can be for themselves before attempting a LTR.”
Incels (just looked it up) sounds like a group of very resentful young men. It’s ideal if one can do this independently before attempting a LTR. But if one’s already in LTR/marriage and still wants to better him/her self, how could they achieve such a betterment? You can’t simply walk away from your family duties, right?
Moreover, and who defines “the best”, based on wha criteria? Without interacting with other individuals, who are vast different from one to another, how does (in)voluntary “celibate” men or women know they’re achieving “the best”?
“I didn’t know that there was a difference. Maybe “s”toic being that I am just now reading up/watching videos on it. I don’t agree with a whole lot of it. Some of it sounds a bit “standoffish” to rude. I do like the stoic ideas of taking time on yourself not being selfish. “
I just posted a separate posts on some Stoic philosophers’ quotes. I like to read/study original quotes to come up with my own understandings. Youtube clips are all based on each presenter’s subjective interpretations of Stoicism, which may and may not suit your individualistic comprehensions. I did watch a lot of them in the past few years, but eventually stick to the original words and my own reflections on them, based on my own experiences or sufferings.
“I tend to prioritize everyone else but myself. And when I do try self care I feel selfish. “
To prioritize one’s mental “health” or mentality is not “selfish, or I call it — Wisely Selfish (capital S). Because if one’s mindset is “unwell” or off a “normal” track (e.g. LE), he can’t benefit either him/her self or their beloved ones, or anyone else , and may even cause detriments or harms to themselves and those around them.
“But I have been doing better with that. I have been spending a couple hours a day in solitude for the last few months to reflect on myself and my life and it has been helping me greatly.”
YES, 🙌 YES, 👍 YES! 👏 Everyone, single or paired, need to do minimum hours (1 hour, or 2 half hours) in solitude to self-reflect on one’s own mind and life.
“No just my normal feminine side. I have more femineity in me than I would say most heterosexual men do. I prefer the company of women for the most part. “
That’s not extraordinary feminine, is it? The opposite attracts; since young, I’ve prefered the company of men, can you say that I’m more masculine?
“I enjoy women’s fashion as much as I do men’s. I enjoy tasks, though they are more fun to me, like styling my wife’s hair, or just combing it for her, paint her fingers and toes. “
These are quite feminine traits, which I don’t really like spend time doing at all, unless I have to for some special events. I’d spend more time scanning through or “chewing” others’ poems.
“If anything I stunted my feminine side around LO and tried to be the typic masculine guy. You know; gorilla beating his chest.”
I can’t imagine a gorilla painting my finger or toe nails😵💫‼️ How could be that possible 🙃? Myself can’t appreciate Chippendale Dancers… 🙄! I entreat: send me a Keats or Proust … ♒️ ✍️
“There is saying, once again taking the internet with a grain of salt, that goes around about modern western women; “women will sacrifice their family for their happiness, men will sacrifice their happiness for their family.”
😳 is this true? Do you have data on their percentage/ratio? I know there are infinite individual cases, but the statements makes it sound like a norm⁉️ 🤔
“I know it sounds a bit incel or neckbeard, but divorce rates and settlements in said divorces, women having children with multiple men, while the married man doesn’t know they are not. “
Are such cases fairly common now? 😮 I don’t watch a lot of newscasts, which tend to broadcast extreme cases and then make them seemingly frequent.
“Just watched a newscast (though I cannot remember where, somewhere on the east coast I think) of a man finding out all three of “his” children weren’t his. They were by other men. Unfortunately he snapped, went to his wife’s work and shot her.”
I intuitively sense it is an extreme, individual case that cannot represent even a minority of divorce cases. What about those married men who had children outside their marital beds (not all of them paid child support even under the law and a reinforcement had to chase them for years) or who had physical affairs or limerence for other women (men) other than their SO (just look at LwL)?
“To Be A Man –Dax https://youtu.be/tHxip2x-PLc?si=e6JSAEu2fvD8fBu0”.
The contents of the above song to my ear is quite traditional which does not really reflect in modern, cosmopolitan city life, based on what I know individually and collectively (learned about) —
1. Both men and women are bread winners; women provide anywhere from 1-3 quarters of income while still does half or more household work.
2. Men are encouraged and preferred to well express their thoughts and emotions. Just check data of male clients in any therapists’ offices.
3. Men en are appreciated for their father and husband’s roles, shared family responsibilities, not just remembered when they’re dead.
[“Which part of safe “stoicism” you’re referring to here? I’m very specific in this practice.”]
“Not letting the emotions of others affect my reactions. I don’t want to be like I was with LO. Her every word, every actions, every emotion, every breath effected my reactions and responses. I don’t want to be like that anymore. “
I totally agree, I was in your shoes, but not for too long. Limerence is matter that could be lessened in some degrees, if one’s Stoic practice is strong before slipping into a LE. I learned about Stoicism during the peak of my LE (2-3 years into LE), and afterwards the pain degrees were lessened (helped me expect less or go to LC). Stoicism alone can’t pull anyone out of LE, which has already affected one’s neural system and altered one’s state of mine.
“LO has (and hopefully will be) been the only woman in my life to turn me upside down. And while I understand limerence and how and why it comes about, I still don’t know why in particular it was her. “
All our LO has that effect on us, respectively; you’ll have to analyze and figure it out why this LO, or maybe not. Based on Helen Fisher, Throughout the history, no one knows why one could glimmer at/ deeply fall in a infatuation with one particularly LO, but not a room full of people similar to LO’s background or physique❗️
Or, maybe it’s not LO, but ourselves, at a particular time and space, due to some adversary situations (like My Dad’s sudden passing), that triggered our LE lizard mind, which might slip into a LE with anyone kind/attractive nearby, or even with anything like a pretentious 🏠!
“With anyone. I’m trying to learn not to seek outside validation. “
Yes ✅! It should be practiced by both men and women ALL THE TIME. A majority of limerents in LwL, more or less, seed external validation, few realizes it, let alone trying to stop it. I did it subconsciously, too, when I first came on board, not anymore in the past 4 months… because my lifetime Longing (since my first memory) has gone. To look into myself before I react, if I react at all. Sometimes no reaction is needed because there is nothing to gain for myself by said reaction. Like my boss still trying to push my buttons about LO. I don’t want to be that person anymore. I don’t want to be a cold a$$hole but I don’t want to be a doormat either.“
This is very Stoic. Keep doing it 💪❗️
“I know what I think about my age is self-depreciating. I am trying to work better at that. “
“The soul becomes dyed with the color of its thoughts.” — M. Aurelius.
Our thoughts deeply affect our soul, moods and even appearance. So choose what to think — as my Dad often told me, is utterly important. Self-depreciating is never “healthy”, and it’s different from modesty, which is an attitude in interacting with others, in accordance with our TRUE 16 Selves (based on IFY — Internal Family System). Unnecessary depreciating would curb down our self-confidence and self-esteem.
“I think one part of my mid-life crisis is my change in fashion. I feel amazing in my new skin and I can tell it is having a positive affect on my attitude.”
You see you’re not feeling too old to change your fashion and dare to wear it in public! In my town, only young people or a few eccentrics dare to do that. So, why not try some courageous changes in your Mental Fashion❓
“A funny story; this past Sunday at service, the youth pastor gave the sermon, as last week was youth camp all week. He was talking about how we need to “wear” our faith. So that people can see our service and faith to God and Jesus. He said “We all need to wear our faith outwardly like Adam does his fashion sense without shame or fear.” Didn’t really like being the center of attention out of nowhere but I got his point. “
📣 Bravo, Adam‼️Yes, wear your faith outwardly, wear /outspeak your youth/mentality/philosophy outwardly, without any sense of shame or fear!
“You are quite welcome Miss Snow. I may not comment on all your posts but I do read 90% of them. “
Wow, young man, what’s going on with you today to flatter an old lady so much ❓😳 I haven’t yet reached my middle age (only about 30-35 yrs in spirit), so no need to pamper still my strong limbs, just my 🧠 🔨away as it still needs it… 😋
“The other 10% is Sammy and your back and forths. 🙂”
Only 10% ⁉️ 🤔. Does it mean our verbal tango tryouts were so unwatchable❓— he did Tango Nuevo, me Argentine Tango❓ he moved with his Milonquero steps; me ballroom stumbles❓he swung to the right, me leaned to the left❓he was tired down by his residual LE pains, me looped over my LE ember❓ then from time to time, the both sides just helplessly messed on other’s toes and shouted due to frustration /disharmony❓ then ultimately he just ran away and abandoned Tango de Salon once for all❓ 😃
“Sometimes they are too much for me. “
In what ways they are “too much” for you? You mean the period of late 2023-early 2024 or the entire two years❓ I’m all ears… 😊
“You two have a chemistry like no one else.”
Young man, 🎩 🥃❗️ You’re using some big word here, “chemistry”❗️ Why do you state so❓Is there a better/more fitting word to describe your sense of “like no one else” ❓Or “chemistry” on specific arena, eg. Classical Literature, poetry, or philosophies❓
How never-met/viewed 👻 👻 would/could have “chemistry” which normally involve one’s six senses⁉️ You don’t think VERBAL “chemistry” could be illusory or misleading❓ I have more than a half dozen lived experiences to prove such an effect…
I DO admit that one’s logical thinking/rationality does not alway align with one’s dreams — the Unconscious….🗯️. The latter has more power to often clink-clank one’s backbones…. 🌀
Typo:
A majority of limerents in LwL, more or less, SEEK external validation, few realizes it, let alone trying to stop it. I did it subconsciously, too, when I first came on board, not anymore in the past 4 months… because my lifetime Longing (since my first memory) has gone. 😋
“To look into myself before I react, if I react at all. Sometimes no reaction is needed because there is nothing to gain for myself by said reaction. Like my boss still trying to push my buttons about LO. I don’t want to be that person anymore. I don’t want to be a cold a$$hole but I don’t want to be a doormat either.“
Miss Snow
“I see. Does bettering oneself need to give up on romantic relationship?”
It’s not so much, as I understand the movement, giving up, but postponing their energy on a romantic relationship. Looking inTO themselves and asking things like “am I being rejected because of who I am or because women are asking too much and giving too little?” Taking time for self care and personal reflection rather than gauging their worth on whether women reject them or not. It’s quite different in the west. Men are expected to make all the initial effort. And all a woman has to do is accept or rejected that effort. A comedian jokingly (he’s single in his 40’s) said “yeah for women being single is great. You get all the free drinks and meals you want.” May sound a bit sexist, but if a woman is out to do just that she can totally get away with it. Women can get constant validation in the west for fun if they are that type of woman.
“how does (in)voluntary “celibate” men or women know they’re achieving “the best”?”
I can’t say anything about being “the best” when I was young, because my drinking habits were the worst in my late teens and into my 20’s. If I had not met my wife I probably wouldn’t have made it to 35. But I had far, far more female friendships than I ever did romantic interests. And I married my wife as a virgin at 23.
It’s not that a lot of these men in MGTOW are being hermits or turning into incels. They may still have many friendships with both men and women, it is that they are just not expending their energy chasing women for romantic interests and turning that energy inward to better themselves so that when they do come across that mature, ready for a possible commitment woman, they aren’t doing all the work because she is mature and responsible. And the woman responds because she can see the growth that he has gone through. The same aforementioned comedian said “You think you want someone who can’t live without you. But what you want is a person that doesn’t need you in the least but chooses to be with you because they love you.” That’s a realization that I think a lot of men seeking outside validation need to come to realize. Well and to be honest women too.
As far as “To Be A Man” you are right to a degree, it is on more traditional lifestyles. I know people are quite surprised I wanted Momma to stay home and raise our children rather than work, and take that work load myself. I think, at least to me, that the sentiment of the song is feeling appreciated. A lot of times men will not burden their family, wife, even if she works herself too, with the struggles that they have. In financial crisis throughout our marriage, I have always hid them from her, taking personal sacrifice so her and our children could eat.
There is a young lady on youtube that makes shorts about some of the kinds of jobs men do. Even something as “safe” as window washing skyscrapers, to under water welding, offshore drilling, linemen, steel workers, firefighters, construction; all jobs filled mostly, if not entirely, by men. All jobs as a man, I myself couldn’t/wouldn’t do. The jobs these men do keep the infrastructure of this country (and their COO) intact. And a lot of jobs we all probably take for granted on a day to day basis.
The line “And our father’s actions play a role and we end up like them, so they can’t let us see them hurt, cause we’ll embody what they do, and start a generational curse” is a real thing. I remember some time ago our oldest son lamenting about adulthood being hard. And he asked me how I did it, with him and his brother. “You made it looks so easy.” Well at least I did good with that right? Cause, damn, it was not easy. At all.
“Our thoughts deeply affect our soul, moods and even appearance.”
Maybe that’s why as much as Dame Marcia laments about her age and appearance, I can bet she looks a hell of a lot better at whatever age she is than I do now. 🙂 I’ll be 48 years YOUNG in ten days. You mean like that?
“In what ways they are “too much” for you?”
Maybe “too much” wasn’t the right word. Philosophically, when you two get on that subject, reminds me of when I tried to read Kant. You two are naturally at a level I struggle to reach. It’s not per say a bad thing, and I should immerse myself in more of your conversations, if anything to try and understand, but a lot of times I don’t. That is not a negative assessment of you two’s conversations, just a statement regarding my mental capacity.
“Young man, 🎩 🥃❗️ You’re using some big word here, “chemistry”❗️ Why do you state so❓Is there a better/more fitting word to describe your sense of “like no one else” ❓Or “chemistry” on specific arena, eg. Classical Literature, poetry, or philosophies”
You two have a back and forth like no two other people on LwL. You seem to reside on polar opposites, both in your personalities and your world views, yet retain respect for each other. That’s good chemistry. It is quite easy to be less than respectful on the internet when hidden behind anonymity. But you two seem to manage the opposite despite your opposing views. And that’s what makes this community so great.
Adam 🎩 🍺,
“It’s not so much, as I understand the movement, giving up, but postponing their energy on a romantic relationship. “
That’s really good, imp. One needs to be maturer than 22-25 yrs old.
“Looking into themselves and asking things like “am I being rejected because of who I am or because women are asking too much and giving too little?” “
There is that mysterious chemistry at play, not just personal qualities. One can have all sorts of qualities, but still don’t click with a desired person. Accepting that mysterious pair-bonding drive is not subjected to rationality would make anyone feel easier and keep one’s self confidence intact.
If men think/perceive that women are asking too much and giving too little, then walk away, don’t chase invaluable!
“Taking time for self care and personal reflection rather than gauging their worth on whether women reject them or not. “
A very healthy mental and spiritual practice for both men and women.
“It’s quite different in the west. Men are expected to make all the initial effort. And all a woman has to do is accept or rejected that effort. “
Yeah, very Macho. It’s hard to change traditions of thousands years: male seduce and initiate courtship and sex — a nature of most mammals (except few, eg. tiger/tigress). But a maturer, newer generation need to start a bit biological “revolution”.
“A comedian jokingly (he’s single in his 40’s) said “yeah for women being single is great. You get all the free drinks and meals you want.” May sound a bit sexist, but if a woman is out to do just that she can totally get away with it.”
If men do not put up with such an entitlement, then a woman can’t get away with it. In big cities, many are doing split bills, AA system, even for the first date. Just ask her politely, “I’d like to have the bill split” especially if he senses there would be no 2nd date. If she refuses, you know whom you’re dealing with.
“Women can get constant validation in the west for fun if they are that type of woman.”
Because there are men in the West who like to give superficial/cheap validation — flattery.
[“how does (in)voluntary “celibate” men or women know they’re achieving “the best”?”]
“It’s not that a lot of these men in MGTOW are being hermits or turning into incels. They may still have many friendships with both men and women, it is that they are just not expending their energy chasing women for romantic interests and turning that energy inward to better themselves so that when they do come across that mature, ready for a possible commitment woman, they aren’t doing all the work because she is mature and responsible. And the woman responds because she can see the growth that he has gone through.”
Excellent! Such MGTOW steps are very healthy, promoting more maturer romantic ties later and less breakups. Women should do the same!
“The same aforementioned comedian said “You think you want someone who can’t live without you. But what you want is a person that doesn’t need you in the least but chooses to be with you because they love you.”
Very wise and Stoic. 📣 I’d want/desire men like this as friends/partners. I am ready give/initiate the same to qualified men.
“That’s a realization that I think a lot of men seeking outside validation need to come to realize. Well and to be honest women too.”
I totally agree with you here! 🤝
“As far as “To Be A Man” you are right to a degree, it is on more traditional lifestyles. I know people are quite surprised I wanted Momma to stay home and raise our children rather than work, and take that work load myself. I think, at least to me, that the sentiment of the song is feeling appreciated. “
I think men here think about themselves a bit more one-sided, wanting appreciation is a form of validation, as if without it, one can’t survive or live well. Have men thought of women in this scenario that they also want to feel their education and professional trainings to be appreciated contributed to their chosen work/career and to benefit others and the society in large?
I’m not saying that raising kids is a small/easy task, but do mothers get paid regularly? How do you measure the load of her work? If husbands leave for another woman, after their kids are gone for college or their own life, those wives are left with meager maintainence and lack of updated professional skills for returning to job market, such cases are not in minority.
“A lot of times men will not burden their family, wife, even if she works herself too, with the struggles that they have. In financial crisis throughout our marriage, I have always hid them from her, taking personal sacrifice so her and our children could eat. “
I understand your motivation/caring concern for such a sacrifice, but personally I would not appreciate it. Such a burden should be shared by the couple as a unit/team, so they could understand and share the struggles, which in return to tighten the bond by the adversity. If all men can treat their wife/SO as a familial/relationship camaraderie, then you’ll see how that bond gets strengthened.
“The line “And our father’s actions play a role and we end up like them, so they can’t let us see them hurt, cause we’ll embody what they do, and start a generational curse” is a real thing. “
A bit old-fashioned, to my ears! Men are human beings and need to show their vulnerabilities, to be understood, and to be shared with their friends and family. Men’s tears are not a sign of weakness, but genuine humanity!
“I remember some time ago our oldest son lamenting about adulthood being hard. And he asked me how I did it, with him and his brother. “You made it looks so easy.” Well at least I did good with that right? Cause, damn, it was not easy. At all.”
I personally think a father/mother should not hide the realistic truths, making children living inside an “easy” bubble, which takes away the opportunities for kids to build their own immune system against realistic hardship down the road. You were doing something for them, instead of letting them facing real challenges earlier in their life; that’s over protecting.
“Maybe that’s why as much as Dame Marcia laments about her age and appearance, I can bet she looks a hell of a lot better at whatever age she is than I do now. “
I totally agree with you here: Dame Marcia is shining like Joan of Arc in feminine appearance/appeal. Just think of some of her dates’ age: 34! Bravo, Sis! 👏
“I’ll be 48 years YOUNG in ten days. You mean like that?”
Your birthday is August 22? You haven’t reached the middle age mark here: 53/55, Young man! Shave your facial beard and show your tender chest to Mamma!
“Maybe “too much” wasn’t the right word. Philosophically, when you two get on that subject, reminds me of when I tried to read Kant. You two are naturally at a level I struggle to reach. “
😳 You’re flattering me here again! 😊. Alice could barely breathe when verbally ⚔️ with that Wittgenstein Humpty 🥚 of theorizing and reasoning, let alone to be alluded to Kant, whom she’s rarely read (aside from a little bit of his quotes). That 🥚 was a wonderland of mental challenges, provoking her inexhaustible curiosity… 😛
“It’s not per se a bad thing, and I should immerse myself in more of your conversations, if anything to try and understand, but a lot of times I don’t. That is not a negative assessment of you two’s conversations, just a statement regarding my mental capacity.”
You’re too modesty here. As an Eastern Alice, filled with LE-flared “temper tantrum” in the LwL wonderland 👻 , she did not even know/comprehend how she ended up throwing verbal darts with a Napoleon in purple proses ♒️ ✍️ ! And then somehow was bewilderingly“made” of a Madame de Stael. With her inept, blind ESL sword, why would she want or dare to stand opposing that LwL Napoleon 🙄 ⁉️ — too curious and naive to have fear, perhaps 🤔❓
“You two have a back and forth like no two other people on LwL.”
No two 👻 👻 are like in LwL. All conversations are different in content, intensity, and scope. They two would probably never get bored with each other, I think: his 3 short purple lines could spring out 9 new ideas out of her curious ears, while some posters’ three paragraphs could barely convey 3 thoughts….
“You seem to reside on polar opposites, both in your personalities and your world views, yet retain respect for each other. “
Who could not respect and admire Napoleon’s discipline, ability, knowledge and love for arts, even if he destroyed a half of Europe⁉️ Plus, she was/am not Madame de Stael, even if mistreated like one by the Napoleon himself! 🙄
“That’s good chemistry. It is quite easy to be less than respectful on the internet when hidden behind anonymity. “
That’s one bit of their shared morality. I think she could/did 👁️ a faceless, worthy rival/“enemy” from 👻 👻 land. Don’t you think it’s a flattery/complitment to be “battled” with brilliance of Napoleon, who did not verbally ⚔️ with just any “opposing” generals ❓😉
“But you two seem to manage the opposite despite your opposing views. And that’s what makes this community so great.”
North Pole and South Pole have to co-exist simultaneously, without one, the other would disappear; the earth would collapse… DrL is very understanding and tolerant. 😆
The statement — “From my perspective, I have always treated Snow with unfailing patience and tremendous respect. Don’t twist the narrative – I have consistently been a much better friend to her than you or anyone else here has.” … was indeed true 😊 ❗️
Adam,
“And all a woman has to do is accept or rejected that effort. ”
Obviously, men carry the burden in early dating. They’re expected to lead. But it’s not like women don’t do anything.
I’ll use my own life … with the guy I met on the dating site and went out with twice, I messaged him first. So I initiated. He responded and we messaged back and forth. He suggested a phone call, and I had to do my part. It’s not easy talking to someone you don’t know on the phone. He asked me out and, again, it’s not easy making conversation with someone face-to-face who you’ve never met, at least for me. I had to carry my end of the conversation. I didn’t just sit there like a blob. 🙂 He asked me out again, and I think I was the one who suggested where we go.
Just as there are things a man can do to cause a woman to lose interest in this early phase of dating, there are things a woman can do. It’s this weird dance of showing interest but not too much, being available but not too much … You don’t want to get the dreaded “N” word attached to you … “needy.”
This attention you mention a woman getting … it’s often from men she’s not interested in.
And to add to that, the guys she is interested in don’t always ask her out. Or she feels like she’s dancing around trying to give the guy hints and openings so he does ask her out. She’s hoping he gets the message — she tries to strike up conversation, she mentions what she likes to do and asks if he does, etc. Sometimes, as a woman, you feel like you’re waving 8 red flags, you’re being so obvious! 🙂
““yeah for women being single is great. You get all the free drinks and meals you want.” ”
I will admit to letting a guy buy me a drink while at a bar when I was younger but I never went out with someone for a free meal or free movie tickets, etc. Dating is hard. It’s a lot of work.
I’m surprised to hear that people still expect the man to do the initial asking, though. In the 80s/90s I would take the initiative now and then, asking a guy out, calling him, whatever, and thought by now that would be the norm!
Serial,
“I’m surprised to hear that people still expect the man to do the initial asking, though. In the 80s/90s I would take the initiative now and then, asking a guy out, calling him,”
I did that when I was younger, but I don’t want to do that anymore. I like when the guy leads. I like the experience better and then I’m sure of their interest.
Marcia,
Moving this down here as the scrolling above is hurting my head.
[“Doesn’t the interest ever build”]
“I don’t think for most men it does build. They like what they see or they don’t.”
Just don’t discount that some might have that elusive ‘third basket’ of mine, and that sometimes those “growers” can go to good places. Your instinct is no doubt right most of the time. But there are exceptions that it’s worth keeping an open mind to, especially if the guy is attractive to you – he may just be shy and need encouragement.
“But usually you can tell … the guy’s looking at you, he’s kind of hovering, etc.”
Yeah I think you’re right – as I mean above by instinct.
“Why is that a double standard? Why would I care about someone being intentional in their flirting if I’m not interested?”
You’re saying that flirting is fun and meaningless, until it isn’t! How does the person on the other end deduce type which it is?
It was an observation, not a criticism. I feel and do the same, most people do. That’s what keeps it fun eh 😉?
“All I know is that, of all those married guys who flirted/talked with me , only a few ever pressed for more. A small percentage. Very small. The rest weren’t taking it seriously, either.”
That’s interesting. So you’re saying lots of them flirted, but very few with any intent to betray their wives. I gotcha.
[“All I can say is, you (personally) *know* instinctively when it is the five-years kind.”]
“How would I know that? I can usually tell when someone is interested. I can’t tell the LEVEL of interest.”
My previous answer was trying to say it is the cluster of signs like you commented on re Adam and his LO, or your friend noticed in you towards your LO.
Let me try that another way – what do I think I have leaked in my LO’s direction, as this is where that ‘only one on the room’ started? I’m not proud of it all, as an unavailable person, but I’ll tell it honestly for illustration.
At the peak, if I was out and about in a crowd with her, we might be off doing our own thing but (if she looked for it) she’d see I always had half an eye on where she was and what she was doing. I would not flirt, even lightly, with others there. Outside that, things like – I would always offer her a drink or food if I was getting myself any, and sometimes just randomly turn up with some. I would reply to texts quickly. I would instigate texts frequently and when not ‘necessary’. I made it my business to ‘accidentally bump into her’ and I would occasionally ‘check in’ with no apparent reason. I would have an unusually good memory for every detail of what she told me and ask her about it later.
They were all ways of showing I cared. One or two of these alone may mean nothing. All of them in a cluster mean the person is very interested.
Now, a lot of that can only be decoded by her because she had previous experience of me as a friend and might well have seen changes. I think you are talking about what you can tell more quickly than putting in a decade as friends first! The big ones are where their attention is at in a crowd (how much is it pulled towards you, even just the subtle signs like eye contact/glances?), and the texting/replying – how fast, for how long, with how much apparent intent etc?
Sorry I rambled – I like this topic!
![“You can have that one 🙂 She had ‘bitchy’ in her, but didn’t let it out that much.”]
“In all seriousness, why didn’t you push it more?”
I needed to see more of that inner bi-ach 😂😅
More seriously – she had a regular crowd of female friends orbiting around her at the meetup-type events, which could make it hard to create the space. I got close once, but the response I got was inconclusive, and I then got a bit shy about it. I also had a sequence of dates with a woman from a dating app around that time, which didn’t end too well. My confidence got knocked so I stepped back.
“He wouldn’t go away. I ended it, and he would make up bullsh*t reasons to talk to me about work (and I made it very clear I didn’t want to talk to him).”
He failed to read the room. He was telling stories to himself – ‘if only I did X right, she would feel Y’. Sounds classic limerent.
[“During the lunch she started explaining to me things about her ‘bedroom preferences’!”]
“Yuck. I wouldn’t like that.”
It would all depend (for me) on who was doing the explaining!
[“Oh dear. I now have basic vocabulary along with limited sentence structuring ability 🙂”]
“Well, yeah. I expected limitations due to your gender. 🙂”
Ouch. Collective man retreats to lick its giant wounds! 🙂
My sentences are great, anyway. Look at the next two coming up. 3 words and 4 words!
“If you’re as bored as I am, do you want to get out of here?” That’s a great line. 🙂”
Could be brilliant. Again depends who’s asking.
“This is over email so tone can be misinterpreted. He asked to meet up again. I said no. He seemed surprised, and in the course of me explaining why, he seemed annoyed in his curt responses ? And now he avoids me at work.”
My guess is he thought he could have low (emotional) strings sexual relations with you*. And then you were honest with him that such emotional ‘strings’ were developing in you. That introduced a dimension he wasn’t expecting. But that does sound out of keeping with how he first approached it with you … with the ‘disclosure’.
*it is an alien concept to me because I’d nearly always need a bit of that emotional investment first, to get to really wanting the rest. I am trying to speculate how he feels, not saying this is how every man would feel or act.
“And there were parts of LO-lite’s personality I saw that I didn’t like that I hadn’t seen before. If I’m being honest. Which is why none of this makes any sense. I mean, why I’m so upset.”
Try to really focus on those to help recovery. I’m sure you are doing this already, but it can be powerful.
[“unless there was a guarantee of space and NC being available afterwards.”]
“But shouldn’t it also be because you have a partner?”
Yes. I did acknowledge that by saying [as a partnered] in the original sentence. See, your ladyship, all those little extra words that lengthen my sentences have their point 😀
LaR,
“Just don’t discount that some might have that elusive ‘third basket’ of mine, and that sometimes those “growers” can go to good places. ”
Tbh, I don’t want to be in the 3rd basket. I want to be in the “hell yes!” basket from the start.
“But there are exceptions that it’s worth keeping an open mind to, especially if the guy is attractive to you – he may just be shy and need encouragement.”
Ok. Like I said, if I’m ever in a situation where I can talk to him, I will. I just don’t think that I’m his type. He’s always sitting with the popular people. I’m strange. I’m not popular.
“You’re saying that flirting is fun and meaningless, until it isn’t! How does the person on the other end deduce type which it is?”
If that person is throwing out little things to ratchet up the flirtation, and the other person isn’t picking up on them and moving things forward. It probably doesn’t mean anything.
So I’ll use LO lite as an example … we chatted and flirted (just a little) at work but contacting me outside of work was a ratchet. There wasn’t much in the first email, but it was the very fact of doing it. And then I took it up a notch from there. Subtly. And so on. You know how Snow always calls it a tango? 🙂
“I feel and do the same, most people do. That’s what keeps it fun eh 😉?”
It can be a lot of fun. Until you take the wrong person seriously.
“That’s interesting. So you’re saying lots of them flirted, but very few with any intent to betray their wives. I gotcha.”
As a general rule. Although there were a few who tried to ratchet things up and I didn’t encourage it. Would they have gone through with it if I had? Idk. Hard to say. Some of you are big talkers. 🙂
“or your friend noticed in you towards your LO.”
Yes, but my friend was extremely intuitive. Most people aren’t, and most people aren’t paying that much attention to us. They just aren’t.
“At the peak, if I was out and about in a crowd with her, we might be off doing our own thing but (if she looked for it) she’d see I always had half an eye on where she was and what she was doing. I would not flirt, even lightly, with others there. Outside that, things like – I would always offer her a drink or food if I was getting myself any, and sometimes just randomly turn up with some. I would reply to texts quickly. I would instigate texts frequently and when not ‘necessary’. I made it my business to ‘accidentally bump into her’ and I would occasionally ‘check in’ with no apparent reason. I would have an unusually good memory for every detail of what she told me and ask her about it later.”
Ah, ok. So very specialized attention. If you’ve done all of that, and you weren’t doing that before, I can’t help but think your LO knows.
I think your last sentence is telling. So my date … asked me some of the same questions on the second date he did on the first. And there was another time he said, “Oh, yeah, I remember you telling me that.” I hadn’t told him.
” I think you are talking about what you can tell more quickly than putting in a decade as friends first! ”
Well, yes. I don’t befriend men anymore. 🙂
But I think that’s the reason I wasn’t super keen on going on the second date. He’d already started falling off with the communication. I knew that wasn’t a good sign.
“Sorry I rambled – I like this topic!”
Yeah, but it was good information. Not your usual word salad. You get more focused when talking about your LO. 🙂
“I needed to see more of that inner bi-ach 😂😅”
You do like them bitches! 🙂
“I also had a sequence of dates with a woman from a dating app around that time, which didn’t end too well. My confidence got knocked so I stepped back.”
I know the feeling. 🙂
“He failed to read the room.”
Oh, no, unless he had a lobotomy, he read it. I wasn’t subtle. I think he was getting off on the fact that I was so annoyed at having to talk to him. He was punishing me.
[“During the lunch she started explaining to me things about her ‘bedroom preferences’!”]
[“Yuck. I wouldn’t like that.”]
“It would all depend (for me) on who was doing the explaining!”
Not me. I had a guy do that once. LOTS of DETAIL. And when we finally got in the room, he followed his script almost verbatim. It was one of the most boring sexual experiences of my life.
[“Oh dear. I now have basic vocabulary along with limited sentence structuring ability 🙂”]
[“Well, yeah. I expected limitations due to your gender. 🙂”’]
“Ouch. Collective man retreats to lick its giant wounds! 🙂”
You men don’t have souls. 🙂
[“If you’re as bored as I am, do you want to get out of here?” That’s a great line. 🙂”]
“Could be brilliant. Again depends who’s asking.”
Well, that’s always the answer, right? 🙂
“My guess is he thought he could have low (emotional) strings sexual relations with you*. And then you were honest with him that such emotional ‘strings’ were developing in you. That introduced a dimension he wasn’t expecting. ”
Yeah, I get that. But why has he cut me off? There’s no reason we can’t be civil. And there’s nothing I’ve done to spook him into thinking I’m going to bother him and get clingy.
“But that does sound out of keeping with how he first approached it with you … with the ‘disclosure’.”
I’m not sure what you mean.
[“And there were parts of LO-lite’s personality I saw that I didn’t like that I hadn’t seen before. If I’m being honest. Which is why none of this makes any sense. I mean, why I’m so upset.”]
“Try to really focus on those to help recovery. I’m sure you are doing this already, but it can be powerful.”
It’s not working. I’m literally watching online tarot readings. I’ve lost my mind.
“Yes. I did acknowledge that by saying [as a partnered] in the original sentence. See, your ladyship, all those little extra words that lengthen my sentences have their point 😀”
Ok. That’s ONE instance. 🙂
Marcia,
I’ll reply to most of our discussion as soon as I can, but felt it wasn’t right to leave the LO-lite part hanging for ages, as you had questions for me about what I meant.
“But why has he cut me off? There’s no reason we can’t be civil. And there’s nothing I’ve done to spook him into thinking I’m going to bother him and get clingy.”
Would ‘having this out’ with him feel possible in any way? Either through an email or probably better, engineering a conversation? If not, why not? (I think I could guess, but don’t want to put words in your mouth).
“I’m literally watching online tarot readings.”
What are the cards telling you?
Oh, it appears half my reply didn’t post … this is the other bit
[“But that does sound out of keeping with how he first approached it with you … with the ‘disclosure’.”]
“I’m not sure what you mean”
OK, so I get you can’t give more exact words about the disclosure, and why. Before when you wrote about it, I inferred he didn’t just say “I want a quick and fruity one-nighter” but something a bit more profound about how he liked you. And that’s why his behaviour since – if you ‘catching feels’ was the problem – makes no sense.
Seriously – I think you should call him out on it. It’s not OK to just ghost you without explaining. That’s not nice behaviour.
LaR,
“Would ‘having this out’ with him feel possible in any way? Either through an email or probably better, engineering a conversation? If not, why not? (I think I could guess, but don’t want to put words in your mouth).”
I’ve already sent an additional email. He’s not responding. There’s no point in doing more.
“What are the cards telling you?”
Well, they’re general readings for the thousands of viewers that each tarot card reader has for his or her YouTube channel. 🙂 And they’re telling me everything I want to hear because they want me to keep watching their videos! I watch one reader because he calls his viewers the same generic nickname LO-lite called me. (I wish I was kidding.)
“OK, so I get you can’t give more exact words about the disclosure, and why. Before when you wrote about it, I inferred he didn’t just say “I want a quick and fruity one-nighter” but something a bit more profound about how he liked you.”
Well, no, he didn’t say that. 🙂 I think he likes me a person. That I already knew. But finding me appealing … I did not know. And he misses seeing me as the company changed our work schedules and we were barely seeing each other. There was a bit more, but it’s too specific. But nothing nothing about emotional feelings, if that’s what you’re asking. (I think I already told you that.)
“Seriously – I think you should call him out on it. It’s not OK to just ghost you without explaining. That’s not nice behaviour.”
He didn’t really ghost me. He responded when I said no to meeting up again but he got a little abrupt/irritated/snotty ? with me and then stopped responding.
I’ll shut about this. I don’t plan on doing anything. I don’t think there’s anything I can do. Don’t worry. I’m not paying for any of these Tarot readings. 🙂
Why Women Are Weary of the Emotional Labor of ‘Mankeeping’
As male social circles shrink, female partners say they have to meet more social and emotional needs.
By Catherine Pearson
Published July 28, 2025
Updated Aug. 1, 2025 | NY Times
Justin Lioi is a licensed clinical social worker in Brooklyn who specializes in therapy for men. When he sees a new client, one of the first things he asks is: Who can you talk to about what’s going on in your life?
Much of the time, Mr. Lioi said, his straight male clients tell him that they rarely open up to anyone but their girlfriends or wives. Their partners have become their unofficial therapists, he said, “doing all the emotional labor.”
That particular role now has a name: “mankeeping.” The term, coined by Angelica Puzio Ferrara, a postdoctoral fellow at Stanford University, has taken off online. It describes the work women do to meet the social and emotional needs of the men in their lives, from supporting their partners through daily challenges and inner turmoil, to encouraging them to meet up with their friends.
“What I have been seeing in my research is how women have been asked or expected to take on more work to be a central — if not the central — piece of a man’s social support system,” Dr. Ferrara said, taking care to note that the dynamic isn’t experienced by all couples.
The concept has taken on a bit of a life of its own, with some articles going so far as to claim that mankeeping has “ruined” dating and driven women to celibacy. We talked to Dr. Ferrara and other experts about what mankeeping is and isn’t, and how to tell if it has seeped into your relationship.
Mankeeping isn’t just emotional intimacy.
Dr. Ferrara, who researches male friendship at Stanford’s Clayman Institute for Gender Research, and Dylan Vergara, a research assistant, published a paper on mankeeping in 2024, after investigating why some men struggle to form close bonds — a growing and well-documented issue.
In a 2021 survey, 15 percent of men said they didn’t have any close friends, up from 3 percent in 1990. In 1990, nearly half of young men said they would reach out to friends when facing a personal issue; three decades later, just over 20 percent said the same.
Dr. Ferrara found that “women tended to have all of these nodes of support they were going to for problems, whereas men were more likely to be going to just them,” she said. She sees “mankeeping” as an important extension of the concept of “kinkeeping” — the work of keeping families together that researchers have found tends to fall disproportionately on women.
Eve Tilley-Colson, 37, was relieved to stumble upon the concept of “mankeeping” on social media.
Ms. Tilley-Colson, who lives in Los Angeles, is happy in her relationship with her boyfriend of nearly seven months, and described him as emotionally mature, funny and caring. They make a good team, but Ms. Tilley-Colson finds herself offering him a fair amount of social and emotional scaffolding, she said.
They’re both busy attorneys, but she tends to take charge of their social plans. Ms. Tilley-Colson has hung out with her boyfriend’s close friends a handful of times; he hangs out with hers several times a week.
Her role as the de facto social director of the relationship includes more serious concerns, too. “When are we going to meet each other’s parents? When are we going to go on our first vacation together?” she said. “And if all of that onus is on me to kind of plan, then I also feel all of the responsibility if something goes wrong.”
“Mankeeping” put a word to her feelings of imbalance. “I feel responsible for bringing the light to the relationship,” she said.
Her partner, Glenn, 37, who agreed to speak to The New York Times but asked to use his first name only, said his gut reaction when his girlfriend first described mankeeping to him was that it seemed consistent with what he’d seen play out in many heterosexual relationships. He wondered, “OK, but is that bad?”
“We’re in a moment where more women are speaking up about how drained they are by this dynamic,” said Justin Pere, who runs a therapy practice in Seattle that focuses on relationships and men’s issues.
Ms. Tilley-Colson, who is also a content creator, even made a post on TikTok about it.
Male social disconnection is a larger problem.
Rather than viewing “mankeeping” as an internet-approved bit of therapy-speak used to dump on straight men, experts said they see it as a term that can help sound the alarm about the need for men to invest emotionally in friendships.
“The reality is, no one person can meet all of another’s emotional needs,” said Tracy Dalgleish, a psychologist and couples therapist based in Ottawa. “Men need those outlets as well. Men need social connection. Men need to be vulnerable with other men.”
Mr. Pere said finding additional sources for emotional support does not require going from “zero to 60,” adding that deepening friendships “can happen in these smaller steps that are more manageable.” He might encourage a client to share something new about himself with a friend he already has, for instance. Or invite a friend he normally sees in only one context to do something new (a friendship-building concept sometimes referred to as “repotting”).
If his male clients are reluctant to put themselves out there in that way, he tells them that developing relationships is not about replacing their romantic relationship, but strengthening it by “widening the emotional foundation underneath your life by investing in friendships.”
But some of the challenges men face in making strong connections are societal, said Richard Reeves, president of the American Institute for Boys and Men, a think tank, and author of “Of Boys and Men.” Many of the institutions and spaces where men used to organically make friends have eroded, he said, like houses of worship, civic groups and even the simple workplace.
“Men used to be able to put themselves in these institutional settings and it kind of happened around them,” he added. “That’s just not happening so much anymore. Men do have to do more, be more assertive. I’m finding that even in my own life.”
For Ms. Tilley-Colson and Glenn, talking about mankeeping explicitly has helped ease her burden.
Glenn admitted that partly he thought his girlfriend just liked taking the reins socially. But when she explained how it felt to act as the default emotional manager in the relationship, he began to see how things could feel lopsided, he said.
“I’ve put more effort in to try and even things out,” he said.
When Men Talk About Their Feelings
Aug. 7, 2025 | NY Times
To the Editor:
Re “Why Women Are Weary of the Emotional Labor of ‘Mankeeping’” (news article, nytimes.com, July 28):
Articles like this are how we push more men toward the manosphere.
For decades, men have been told to open up, to be vulnerable, to talk about their feelings. We’ve been asked to stop shutting down and start showing up emotionally. Many of us listened. We did the work. And now we’re reading that doing so is a burden to our partners.
Articles like this don’t just spark debate. They quietly build resentment. They add one more brick to a wall of alienation between men and women. They suggest that even emotionally available men are still failing in some fundamental way. That we are too much, even when we’re trying.
This is the kind of cultural messaging that drives young men into the arms of figures like Joe Rogan, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro and Andrew Tate. Those voices don’t rise in a vacuum. They grow in response to articles like this that imply men are either emotionally shut down or emotionally draining. That’s a false binary, and a truly harmful one.
If we care about healthy relationships and mutual growth, we need to make room for men to express needs without being framed as problems to manage. Otherwise, the wedge will continue to deepen. We will accelerate this death of our beloved country.
The Trouble With Wanting Men
Women are so fed up with dating men that the phenomenon even has a name: heterofatalism. So what do we do with our desire?
By Jean Garnett
July 21, 2025| NY Times
The stranger arrived at the bar before I did, as I intended him to, and was waiting for me at a table in back. He had the kind of face I like, and he had been a little difficult to pin down, delayed in his responses, which I also like. The place was loud with the “having fun” sounds people make when they expect to have fun any minute now, so we were leaning in to hear each other. His hair, I thought, would be good to put my hands in.
There comes a time, usually, when a few extra beats of eye contact are enough. We passed through these beats, took each other’s wrists and met across the table, which was wide enough to frustrate kissing in the right way, keeping the rest of us well apart. Back at my place he was a little shy, I thought, or a little out of practice, but I felt he wanted me, which was what I wanted — to be organized and oriented by his desire, as though it were a point on the dark horizon, strobing.
“I was really looking forward to seeing you again,” he texted me the following week, around lunchtime, “but I’m going through some intense anxiety today and need to lay low :(.”
“Totally understand,” I replied, but I didn’t. Feeble, fallible “looking forward” is not longing; a man should want me urgently or not at all. I was about to collapse into a ritual of frustrated horniness (fantasy, masturbation, snacks) when a friend urged me to join her and two other women for dinner.
“Of course he has anxiety,” said one of them, a therapist, who sat across from me at the restaurant. “That’s life. That’s being alive and going to meet someone you don’t know well.”
“Yeah,” said the woman beside her, a historian. “It’s called ‘sexual tension.’ Stay with it for a minute and you might get some.”
“They can’t,” said my friend with triumphant disgust. She told us about a woman she knew who was dating a man from another city. After weeks of saying “I can’t wait to see you,” the man ghosted her during his actual visit. His explanation later? He’d been “too anxious.”
“Aww, poor baby!” cried the historian, and we all cooed and moaned for the poor wittle fraidy-cat boo-boo, working ourselves into a frenzy of laughter over men’s inability to “man up and [expletive] us.” We were four women at a vegan restaurant in downtown Manhattan; we knew what show we were in, and we couldn’t help but wonder, in a smug, chauvinistic way: Where were the men who could handle hard stuff? Like leaving the house for sex?
The therapist mused about the anxiety of needing to “justify the phallus.” “You know,” she said, “from the child’s point of view, it’s like, ‘I get what Mom is for, but what are you for? What’s the point of your thing?’” This sent us miming confrontations with imaginary members — “Who invited you?” “What’s your deal?” “Are you lost?” — which led to wisecracks about the not-so-precision scalpel of the surgeon the therapist was seeing. Privately, jokes aside, I am quite susceptible to penis — like, I worry that in some Hobbesian state of nature I might just automatically kneel to the prettiest one — but lately I have been bruised by the ambivalence of men, how they can first want me and then become confused about what they want, and this bawdy, diminishing humor soothed me, made me feel more powerful, more in control.
“When did the men get so anxious about desire?” asked the therapist, and I said I didn’t know. “Yes, you do,” my friend said. “It was when they were put on notice that they can’t just get drunk and grope us.”
I haven’t been dating long (just the other day my ex-husband and I received our Judgment of Divorce as an email attachment), but long enough to discover that I have a type. He is gentle, goofy, self-deprecating, rather deferential, a passionate humanist, a sweet guy, a “good guy.” He tends to signal, in various ways, his exemption from the tainted category of “men,” and it is perfectly understandable that he would wish to do so. It must be mildly embarrassing to be a straight man, and it is incumbent upon each of them to mitigate this embarrassment in a way that feels authentic to him.
One of the reasons my marriage ended was that I fell in love with another man — whom I’ll refer to by his first initial, J. Spontaneously graceful, with a soft voice and an inordinate, sad-eyed smile, J. made me laugh, stopping my breath. Being a “good guy,” he intimated from the jump that he did not know how to “do” relationships, giving me to understand that if I expected one with him (or, as he may have conceptualized it, from him), I did so at my peril (which was his peril, too, since he would hate to hurt me). Still, he pursued me; we seemed to be “doing” something together.
I keep encountering and hearing about men who ‘can’t.’ Have these men not heard of ‘don’t want to?’
My husband and I had an open relationship at the time that J. and I met, so the terms of our involvement were, at first, limited, and although J. exerted a pleasant pressure against these limitations, ultimately they suited him. I was the one who violated the terms by finding it intolerable, after a while, to care that much, in that way, for one person while being married to another. I could not disambiguate sex from love nor love from devotion, futurity, family integration, things I wanted with (from?) J., even as, throughout the year and a half or so that we saw each other, he continued to gesture to his incapacity to commit as if it were a separate being, an unfortunate child who followed and relied upon him, maybe, or a physical constraint. I stood there reaching for him while he sad-faced back at me like a boxed mime: He couldn’t talk about it; he wished things were different; maybe someday the child would mature, the glass would break, but for now, there was really nothing to be done.
It seems to me, surveying the field as a dating novice, that this kind of studiously irreproachable male helplessness abounds. I keep encountering and hearing about men who “can’t.” Have these men not heard of “don’t want to?”
Maybe my friend was right about male anxiety at this moment. Maybe the men are taking a beat, “laying low,” unsure of how to want, how to talk, how to woo. Maybe they are punishing us for the confusion.
There are many routes to the species of disappointment I am circling here, but however we get there, the complaint is so common, such a cultural and narrative staple, that the academy is weighing in. We now have a fancy word, “heteropessimism,” to describe the outlook of straight women fed up with the mating behavior of men. Coined by the sexuality scholar Asa Seresin, who later amended it to “heterofatalism,” the term seems, at first glance, to distill a mood that is no less timely for being timeless.
“It was rly nice,” a close friend texted me recently, reporting on her third date with a lawyer. “He’s really really sweet and nice to me and good at sex. No doubt something humiliating and nightmarish will occur soon.” On more than one occasion, when my friend checked in with the lawyer to confirm tentative plans, he did not respond to her for many hours, or even a day. Granted, he worked a punishing schedule, but, my friend reasoned, it takes 90 seconds to send a quick reply. The dissonance between his caring and attentive in-person behavior and these silences confused her, and she mentioned this to him. The lawyer was sorry he had kept her waiting — he hadn’t meant to — but, he said, her complaint had got him thinking: He unfortunately wasn’t able to escalate whatever was happening between them into a “relationship.” My friend clarified that she had not been asking to escalate anything, merely expressing a need for clarity about plans. He understood that, he said, but their “communication skills” were obviously too different for them to continue dating.
The humiliating and nightmarish part, she explained to me, was not so much the rejection as being cast against her will as “woman eager for relationship.” In her memoir, “Fierce Attachments,” Vivian Gornick describes the anguish of being ignored by a lover to her female friend: “What I couldn’t absorb,” she writes, “was his plunging us back into the cruelty of old-fashioned man-woman stuff, turning me into a woman who waits for a phone call that never comes and himself into the man who must avoid the woman who is waiting.”
“I’m really done,” my friend said. “I can’t keep doing this. I don’t want to be hurt and misunderstood constantly. I need to find some other way to live.” I agreed without thinking about it. (This is part of the pessimism, right? The feeling that further thinking about all of this is futile. Surely we have done enough thinking by now.) “I wish I could just be gay with you,” she said, and I said I wished that, too, so much. This was our commiserative routine — what Seresin might call our “performative disaffiliation with heterosexuality” — our spin on “Take my wife, please.” Take my straightness, please. Take my attraction to men.
Is “heterofatalism” a useful concept? I took it up for a while, considered the positions. The writer and gender scholar Sara Ahmed has advanced the idea of “complaint as feminist pedagogy,” arguing that to bitch is inherently transgressive, a form of resistance, while the philosophy professor Ellie Anderson suggests that women venting their dating woes constitutes a kind of negativity as rebellion. Was that what my friends and I were doing over dinner? Rebelling?
The humiliating and nightmarish part was not so much the rejection as being cast against her will as ‘woman eager for relationship.’
If the experts say my romantic letdowns have some larger social significance, I am not going to argue. The men I want are not wanting me badly enough, not communicating with me clearly enough, not devoting themselves to me: All this certainly seems calamitous enough to warrant an “ism.” And if it is an “ism,” the problem cannot be me. It must be men, right? Men are what is rotten in the state of straightness, and why shouldn’t we have an all-inclusive byword for our various pessimisms about them? Domestic pessimism (they still do less of the housework and child care); partner-violence pessimism (femicide is still gruesomely routine); erotic pessimism (the clitoris and its properties still elude many of them). And the petulantly proud masculinist subcultures that have arisen, at least in part, as reactions to these pessimisms keep coughing up new reasons to fear, rage against and complain about “men.”
But those “men” are not the men my friends and I are feeling bleak about. It’s the sweet, good ones. Dammit.
I would like to believe there is something purposeful, resistant, even radical in the heterofatalist mode, but the more I voice it, the more I am inclined to agree with Seresin that it can produce nothing but more of itself. “Heterosexuality is nobody’s personal problem,” he writes. “It doesn’t make sense to extricate your own straight experience from straightness as an institution.” It isn’t that my friend needs to find “some other way to live”; it’s that we all do. But instead of looking for it, we disaffected women “perform” for one another this mutually enabling kind of maintenance, periodically off-gassing some of the shame and frustration of dating men and then chugging along with the status quo.
Whatever Seresin’s vision is, most of us can neither renounce our heterosexuality nor realize a significant renegotiation of its terms. What we can do, at least for now, is negotiate with ourselves. We can try to dodge “old-fashioned man-woman stuff” by acting hopeless about relationships rather than “eager” for them. Maybe this is the utility of “heterofatalism” — naming the bitter pill before we force ourselves to swallow it and put on a carefree smile. Nice to meet you, “good guy”; I am “woman who expects nothing.”
I was doubled over laughing, briefly tasting the knee of my jeans, while the man next to me on the sectional couch strummed a guitar and did a spot-on imitation of Bruce Springsteen. He had that lifting-something-heavy moan down cold, and he was improvising a song about work, American work in the American heartland, hyperbolically tough and tragic male work. Because I was losing it, he kept going, and I kept losing it, and at a certain point I wasn’t sure if I was overpowered by amusement or just overpowered by him.
On the way to his place, I had been texting with my aunt. “Word from an expert,” she wrote. “Wait til he wants it so bad he’s nutsy cuckoo. Sounds facile but, man, truer words were never spoken. ‘Make ’em Suffer’ is my mantra!”
I kept catching myself staring at his mouth, his bottom lip. He told me to slow down; he needed time to get a better sense of how I worked. I lay back to murmur, let him try stuff, and he warmed to his own control, putting his mouth right up to mine, then pulling away when I tried to engage his tongue. “I see what you are,” he said finally, pinning my forearms. “You’re a bratty sub.” He held himself there, just out of reach, breathing on me. “I like to make you wait,” he said.
He did make me wait. I stood at the slot machine watching those cherries and fat yellow coins blur by, and they didn’t stop. He was sweet with me in person, impulsive about biting my nose, but for stretches I wouldn’t hear from him, or I would but only perfunctorily, and then, suddenly, he would pop up. Requesting clarification on what a man feels or wants or sees happening here has gotten me burned before, as it has many women I know. I have learned to regard such demands as “demanding” in a feminized way — simultaneously bossy and supplicating, a reinscribing of the “bratty sub” position. Taking my cues from him, I stayed mostly quiet. Call it “communication pessimism.”
On the bed, the ‘female demand-male withdraw’ pattern pulses with sensuality; in life it sometimes feels like it will drive me out of my senses.
When my friend complained about the lawyer, I expressed outrage at his behavior and worked my way, quite naturally and along a well-worn groove, to a condemnation of all — OK, most — men as incapable of upholding basic standards of communication and care. I was thinking, of course, about J., and I am not proud that my instinctive response to the shame of being gender-stereotyped by life is to pay another stereotype forward. (Men suck. Groundbreaking!)
That said, men’s struggle to communicate in romantic relationships is widespread enough to have earned a psychological designation: “normative male alexithymia,” or the condition of being unable to put words to emotions. This incapacity, Ellie Anderson argues, often forces women who date men to become “relationship-maintenance experts,” solidifying what she cites as “the most common communication pattern among heterosexual dating couples … the ‘female demand-male withdraw’ pattern.” Woman approaches man to discuss something; man removes himself.
On the bed, the “female demand-male withdraw” pattern pulses with sensuality; in life it sometimes feels like it will drive me out of my senses, and it creates work — tough, tragic female work. In the 1980s, the sociologist Arlie Russell Hochschild coined the term “emotional labor” to describe paid work that “involves trying to feel the right feeling for the job” (i.e. service work, health care, education). It must be an indication of our need for more ways to talk about the invisible affective labor that often falls to women that the term has suffered from “concept creep,” stretching far past that original meaning to crop up in everyday conversations about unequal divisions of labor in our love lives.
Anderson gives us a new term, related to but distinct from “emotional labor” and more useful in parsing what we might call the micropolitics of dating: She calls the work women do to interpret mystifying male cues “hermeneutic labor,” and she posits it as a form of “gendered exploitation in intimate relationships.” The guy dating my friend may have been too busy lawyering to confirm his plans with her, but meanwhile, Anderson might say, my friend was working two jobs: one to earn her living, the other as sole manager of an emotional entanglement that was also his. Heterofatalism is partly just burnout.
The stranger waiting at my usual back corner table looked a bit squarer than my average date — his hair appeared recently washed and cut, and he wore a button-down shirt — but some restless mischief played in his face, bearing itself fully in his laugh. Our conversation was brisk and jesting; I got the impression he was enjoying my company but that this was more bonus than criterion for him. He was partnered already, he had told me, and seeking only companionate sex; his dating profile referenced this clearly below a picture of him wearing a blue blazer and petting a donkey’s head.
We turned eventually to the subject of erotic temperament. He was interested in the possibilities that arise between people when any eventuality of marriage, procreation or fidelity was, so to speak, taken off the bed. What might then happen in that bed? In that community? In that world? Watching his clean-cut boyish form and listening to him speak with the eloquent enthusiasm of a connoisseur, the phrase that occurred to me was “sex nerd.” Many dabblers in nonmonogamy were not really, he noted with a laugh, quoting the rapper Pusha T, “’bout dat life.” He was.
I meet this type around sometimes: fluent in the language of polyamory, waving his respectful desire around like a plastic light saber: Pew pew. Why would you play with just one toy when you can take turns with all the toys? While at the same time vaguely subverting … something. Capitalism?
What were my feelings, Sex Nerd wanted to know, about groups? I confessed to having no interest. What can happen between two people, that thing where a pair of beings lock onto and suspend each other, aching for and into each other — I was about that thing, that life. Sure sure, he got that, he respected that — but he had actually found that the intense, intimate kind of connection I described could occur between, say, four people. And when it did, he added with teeth, it was quite an experience.
The bitterness does not replace wanting men, a man, the smell of a man’s thin T-shirt, the dampness of the hair at his nape.
I conceded that it was a fascinating prospect, but one I could not mentalize, or at least not in any way that moved me. Totally, he said, that was totally valid. He was generally eager to assure me that my desires were valid, both in person and later, when he wrote to me on more than one occasion to clarify that: “If you feel our energies aren’t matched, I won’t argue,” and, “If friendship only is preferred, I will understand,” and truly, “No pressure.” Good guy. Protesting a bit much on the consensuality front, but basically a stand-up guy. Evolved, transparent, an enlightened creature of our new romantic age. If only I could desire a man like that, a man bringing such clear terms to the table, enough to be disappointed by him. (Isn’t that what desire is? A site of potential disappointment?) But I couldn’t, which was another disappointment.
Two bodies were pressed together outside an entrance to the subway on my way home, the man’s hand wrapped tightly around the back of the woman’s head, and as I passed them a noise escaped me, a choking sound, a performance of disgust for the benefit of some bitter omniscience. The bitterness does not replace wanting men, a man, the smell of a man’s thin T-shirt, the dampness of the hair at his nape after he exerts himself; the bitterness grows from the want and is mixed up with it. There must be something wrong, I keep thinking, with the way I desire.
“A good man is hard to want,” a good man wrote in the group chat.
“A hard man is good to find,” said another who knows I haven’t had satisfying sex in a minute.
“A man is hard to find good?” said the previous man’s girlfriend.
“A good find is hard to man,” I said, as if a guy were a tricky piece of equipment. “Slow down, I need to get a better sense of how you work.”
“You’re flattening the men,” a former lover wrote to me after I sent him a partial draft of this essay. “They never get to be real — they’re used to confirm a story about disappointment and frustration.”
This man and I met last fall when he was, like me, reeling from romantic rejection, and within a half-hour we lunged at each other, as though by tacit agreement to be each other’s comforting, orgasm-giving blankies for a time. We traded obsessive accounts of the failed relationships, cheered each other through the rigors of “no contact,” watched Albert Brooks movies, belted Weezer songs to karaoke tracks on his couch.
Whatever was happening between us went on for about six weeks, at which point I became annoyed that he was withholding something from me, though I couldn’t say what exactly, and he became anxious about annoying me, and I accused him of coldness, and he accused me of being unfair, and so on. The familiar “female demand-male withdraw” pattern descended over us like a polarizing spell, making me more goading and accusatory, him more defended and reserved. Unlike other, similar exchanges in my past, this one had an oddly mechanical quality, as though rather than venting real passions, we were locked into some tiresome, bewitched choreography.
In “Beyond Doer and Done To,” the feminist psychoanalyst Jessica Benjamin describes the impasse two people can reach where “each feels unable to gain the other’s recognition, and each feels in the other’s power.” In this state, which she calls “complementary twoness,” both people feel helpless, both feel “done to,” both feel the other is “leaving us no option except to be either reactive or impotent.”
Who knows how long the dance of complementary twoness would have lasted with my fellow Weezer singer had one or both of us felt ourselves to be in love. As it was, after a couple of weeks we were able to break the enchantment, and we remain friends. Eventually I admitted to him that it had felt more natural to me to default to “wounded female” rather than assume responsibility for my desires. He, for his part, described a large-looming ex whose adept use of guilt had left its mark. It was one of those moments of becoming aware, suddenly and fleetingly, of how we play ourselves and cast others to play opposite us in the productions of our internal dramas known as days.
My sexuality owes me neither protection nor affirmation; it is out for itself, out for a skirmish, a strain, a smell.
He has questions now, about this piece. Aren’t I oversimplifying the case of my friend and the lawyer? Isn’t what happened there about more than communication? Don’t I recognize a clear incompatibility, arising from both of their insecurities? And regarding hermeneutic labor: Why would a woman want to be with a man who required so much work? Such a woman must intuit that such a man is not ready for a relationship, or that he is unsure of his feelings for her. Isn’t she just as much a part of the enactment of whatever “heteropessimistic” outcome is looming there? In fact, isn’t my taking my friend’s side, as I seem to do here, related to the phenomenon I am diagnosing? Isn’t the impulse to “choose a side” itself perversely fatalistic, antithetical to the mutual recognition that is the very basis of a relationship?
I toppled the whole structure of my life for a man who, when I asked him, “Do you want to be with me or not?” replied, after a few seconds’ silence, “I want to be with you, and I want everything everywhere all at once.” J. was referring, of course, to the 2022 surreal sci-fi comedy set across a multitude of parallel universes in which many versions of the protagonists play out many versions of their lives, each millisecond branching fractal-like into countless alternate dimensions, creating infinite selves, infinite fates, infinite answers to the dilemma of how to be and with whom. This film had moved him deeply, seeming to capture qualities of his neurotype that he seldom saw portrayed.
It occurs to me that the multiverse mind-set may also reflect the cognitive effects of dating apps that, defeatist by design, project a mirage of endless romantic possibilities across infinite timelines. One guy I went out with spoke with a hint of longing about the relationship between his grandparents, who barely spoke to each other before getting married as teenagers in Sicily, thrown together by slim-pickings village life, adolescent hormones and the oppressive myth of female honor. What a system, what a gamble, and then both people were trapped for life. But at least you were spared the anxiety of choice. At least there was that.
The structure of my life needed toppling, it turned out, and I am grateful, and I have been doing my best to be J.’s friend. On a recent afternoon, my daughter and I sat on a blanket in a park with him. A group of teenagers were playing volleyball nearby, using a horizontally growing tree as their net. My daughter had a hankering to swing on that tree, and so we were keeping an eye on the teenagers, waiting for them to disband, urging her to be patient. A few days later, I received a characteristically whimsical text: “In some other timeline we’re still waiting by that tree for the teenagers to finish playing volleyball.”
“Some other timeline.” The phrase captures not only J.’s inclination to keep all possibilities perpetually and wistfully open but my own dogged attachment to a foreclosed dimension, my pouring into that hypothetical so much vitality, care and hope — laborious hope — that might have been, and might still be, reserved for what is possible and happening now, only once, in my fleeting middle age. To forego life for a fantasy: What could be more fatalistic than that?
“Maybe the problem is that you’re a romantic,” says my former lover-slash-friend-slash-male-sensitivity-reader. “And maybe so are the other fatalists.” Sure, maybe. We know — have long known — that romanticism and fatalism are dialectical lovers. When love fails, the very quality that elevated it above the common thrum of experience makes it impossible to imagine anything of the kind ever occurring again. The miraculous singularity of being in love is thus particularly fertile soil for a generalizing pessimism: “I’m attracted to men because I love making bad choices,” goes one quintessentially heterofatalist tweet. This turn, from one man to the imaginary monolith of “men,” both deprives the wounding man of specificity and shows him a certain loyalty; by casting him to play an entire gender, we make sure that we will meet him again. There is something here of the spirited young nun’s frenzied renunciation, slamming the door on romance with an intensely romantic slam, then wedding herself to a male abstraction.
One thing heterofatalism reflects is a persistent lack of faith that those we desire will be able to recognize us as commensurately human. I wonder how much, fearing what we expect and expecting what we fear, we summon the “old-fashioned man-woman stuff” that keeps coming around. A woman comes, a man withdraws; this embodiment needn’t necessarily become pregnant with larger meaning, but it often does. I end up wondering if it is my own fault somehow when the heterosexual dynamic cannot seem to transcend its own tropes, subvert its own symbolism, play out an entirely unpredictable scene.
Seresin rightly pokes fun at the privileged ignorance of straights who, in moments of yearning to experience a desire that we imagine as more extricable from our own oppression, announce a wish to be queer. No relationship — regardless of gender, orientation, number of people — is immune from power dynamics; unequal distribution is always, so to speak, on the bed. But in queer relationships the roles are at least less determined, with perhaps more freedom and flexibility in who assumes which, and how. In other words, maybe our pessimism about straightness arises in part from a dawning sense of its anachronism. Maybe, like the surge of interest in straight nonmonogamy, it’s part of heterosexuality’s clumsy process of queering itself into a more fluid future.
To break the impasse of “complementary twoness” that can grip any pair of people, Jessica Benjamin imagines how we might collaborate, over time (and the time is crucial), to create an “intersubjective third,” a space in which your needs and mine, your desires and mine, recognize and accept each other without competing for dominance. To create such a space, Benjamin says, requires a mutual surrender that is distinct from submission. I find this distinction difficult to grasp, which is perhaps to say that I experience desire in terms of a struggle that someone must lose. I am ready to cop to some unconscious masochism here. A good man is hard to want, after all, and my sexuality owes me neither protection nor affirmation; it is out for itself, out for a skirmish, a strain, a smell.
“The old way of mating is dead,” said my friend at our colloquy of female complaint over dinner, “and the new one has yet to be born.” What is the new one? Pessimism may help us feel knowing, but really, we don’t know. For now, life has us pinned here: “I like to make you wait.”
Snow,
I read most of it. It’s very long, though very well-written.
I obviously don’t know the entirety of the kind of men who are out there, but this woman is picking the wrong men.
“The stranger arrived at the bar before I did, as I intended him to, and was waiting for me at a table in back. He had the kind of face I like, and he had been a little difficult to pin down, delayed in his responses, which I also like”
I’m assuming this is a first date since she describes him as a “stranger.” And he’s already been difficult to pin down and delayed in his responses … before even the first date ! And she admits to LIKING that behavior? And then she goes home with him! What was she expecting?
“Being a “good guy,” he intimated from the jump that he did not know how to “do” relationships, giving me to understand that if I expected one with him (or, as he may have conceptualized it, from him), I did so at my peril”
This guy warned her what he was capable of, and yet she dates him for 1 1/2 years.
“The men I want are not wanting me badly enough, not communicating with me clearly enough, not devoting themselves to me:”
Umm … want different men. I know that’s much easier said than done. Trust me.
“On the bed, the ‘female demand-male withdraw’ pattern pulses with sensuality; in life it sometimes feels like it will drive me out of my senses.”
This makes no sense to me. Why would a man withdrawing in a sexual sense be sensual? In my experiences of late, they’re all over you sexually …but that’s pretty much all they want.
I have no doubt there’s some truth to this article. HOWEVER … people partner up seriously and/or get married all the time. So if a woman doesn’t want an emotionally bereft, loosely defined situationship (and I’m sure that’s frequently on offer in modern dating), don’t accept it. Yes, that may mean having a lot less sex and a lot less dates.
Marcia,
I’ve been out of the dating market for over 1.5 decades, so really don’t understand nor care what’s going on out there. I’m a naturalist and fatalist in friendship/relationship.
I read about your dating “woes” of last month, and thought the article might help you and those (who are considering going down that avenue) have a better sense of the reality.
For the News and cultural trends, I primarily go to NYT and BBC for resources. I have to trust some media to learn about the world…
Marcia,
“On the bed, the ‘female demand-male withdraw’ pattern pulses with sensuality; in life it sometimes feels like it will drive me out of my senses.”
“This makes no sense to me. Why would a man withdrawing in a sexual sense be sensual? In my experiences of late, they’re all over you sexually …but that’s pretty much all they want.”
It’s a Tantric technic to make a man not to explode too fast (otherwise she “suffers” if she needs from 1~10+ OGs.) but redirect and spread his SE to the other part of his body — make him feeling sexual not just locally, but the entire body — body Qi/energy circulating through all meridian pathways — dissolve stresses/bad moods for the time being, a few hours/days…
Snow,
“It’s a Tantric technic to make a man not to explode too fast (otherwise she “suffers” if she needs from 1~10+ OGs.) but redirect and spread his SE to the other part of his body”
I don’t think the writer in the NYC article is thinking about tantric techniques. I think she’s into men she has to chase.
Marcia,
Tantric stuff is not something of new or weird but already woven into “mainstream” sex for hundreds of years. The principle is the same whether one is aware the notion of sex/whole body energy flowing or not. It’s like invisible electricity circulating in a wire, one/detector can’t see but can feel it.
I don’t know if this particular author, or her entire peer groups, is into chasing something hard to get (for both men and women) or something forbidden (for Limerents especially) …. Is this a part of 2nd or 3rd wave of feminism?
Snow,
“Tantric stuff is not something of new or weird but already woven into “mainstream” sex for hundreds of years. The principle is the same whether one is aware the notion of sex/whole body energy flowing or not. It’s like invisible electricity circulating in a wire, one/detector can’t see but can feel it.”
Gotcha. I think we’ve talked about this before. I’m not in to really SLOOOOWWWW. 🙂
“I don’t know if this particular author, or her entire peer groups, is into chasing something hard to get (for both men and women) or something forbidden (for Limerents especially) …. Is this a part of 2nd or 3rd wave of feminism?”
Hmmm … do limerents actually chase? More like think about it and process it. 🙂
I don’t know if it has anything to do with 2nd or 3rd wave feminism. I mean … the second example the writer gave … about her friend with the lawyer. It’s the 3rd date. She’s already hooked up with him. And she says he’s a bad communicator. Why would hook up with this guy if you want more than a situationship? The writing is on the wall. It’s not going anywhere.
I don’t mean this is about morality … because if you (general “you”) want to hook up with someone, go ahead. But there is something to be said about taking your time and getting to know the person.
Marcia,
“Gotcha. I think we’ve talked about this before. I’m not in to really SLOOOOWWWW. 🙂”
It’s a misconception that it’s “really SLOOOOWWWW”, it’s about how one skillfully, powerfully maneuver one’s body/ sexual energy to have longer sensual pleasure and even rejuvenate one’s youth fountain.
Also women’s energy levels vary, some wants/needs 1 ~10 OGs, some 1~3 dozen. If a guy is too fast, the game is over, leaving her “stranded” — you never had that experience? Do you know how many married women have felt that way?
“I don’t know if it has anything to do with 2nd or 3rd wave feminism. I mean … the second example the writer gave … about her friend with the lawyer. It’s the 3rd date. She’s already hooked up with him. And she says he’s a bad communicator. Why would hook up with this guy if you want more than a situationship? The writing is on the wall. It’s not going anywhere.”
I agree with your analysis here. That woman is the way impatient and expecting something of “fairytale”…
“I don’t mean this is about morality … because if you (general “you”) want to hook up with someone, go ahead. But there is something to be said about taking your time and getting to know the person.”
Yes, it is common psychology, NOT morality! No one can know/learn about another person in a short time, it is IMPOSSIBLE.
Snow,
” If a guy is too fast, the game is over, leaving her “stranded” — you never had that experience?”
I’m assuming by “stranded” you mean … her bell wasn’t rung? I think there’s too much emphasis on that, particularly from the other side, like they’ve personally failed if that doesn’t happen for the woman. So the answer is no to your question.
It’s supposed to be an experience, not goalposts to reach. IMO
“Yes, it is common psychology, NOT morality! No one can know/learn about another person in a short time, it is IMPOSSIBLE.”
That’s true. I have a friend who hooked up with a guy on the first date and ended up marrying him. But I think that’s probably pretty rare.
Marcia,
“I’m assuming by “stranded” you mean … her bell wasn’t rung? “
You’re assuming correctly. To me, that’s the worst experience one could have an appetite aroused, but then could not be fed… I speak from my experiences…
“I think there’s too much emphasis on that, particularly from the other side, like they’ve personally failed if that doesn’t happen for the woman. “
No, I’m not talking about from “the other side’s” views in the culture here. You know many Macho cultures, the other side usually doesn’t care whether your bell would ring or not, they just want to get their bell rung and done… Many don’t consider it’s success or failure of a performance, they just want to get their appetite fed.
“So the answer is no to your question.
It’s supposed to be an experience, not goalposts to reach. IMO.”
Do you know what happens if women’s normal appetite is often/always (or for entire marriage) deprived in terms of health, from the energy flowing point of views? — ONE (not all) cause of frequent frustration (mostly unknown), bad moods, hot temper, feistiness, grumpiness, melancholy, depression, you name the rest — due to the stagnation of Qi (SE is just a part of it — hormone’s doing) flowing in the body.
That’s what millions of married women in Macho cultures endure or suffer … and one cause (probably combined with other ones) for high-energy women to either get lovers or get a divorce….
I’m surprised to hear your view on this; no wonder.… 😉
Snow,
“You’re assuming correctly. To me, that’s the worst experience one could have an appetite aroused, but then could not be fed… I speak from my experiences…”
Then show him what he needs to do. Or move it along yourself. 🙂
No, the worst experience is … you don’t like the way they kiss (to me, that’s huge) or touch you or move … or it’s awkward or the whole thing falls flat or it feels mechanical.
“You know many Macho cultures, the other side usually doesn’t care whether your bell would ring or not, they just want to get their bell rung and done… Many don’t consider it’s success or failure of a performance, they just want to get their appetite fed.”
I’ve actually had the opposite experience. There’s too much emphasis on me and it becomes “a thing” to accomplish. (I’m speaking in general.)
“Do you know what happens if women’s normal appetite is often/always ”
I’m not saying anything new here. I think it was a saying that came out in the ’60s or ’70s. You’re responsible for your own orgasm. I believe that.
Marcia,
“Then show him what he needs to do. Or move it along yourself. 🙂”
How does one show another how to move, sustain, and invigorate his/her own internal energy or how to sensuously “withdraw”? Yes, a woman should be responsible and masterful for her own side, and an inadequate other side is incapable of knowing how to receive or to be energized.
“No, the worst experience is … you don’t like the way they kiss (to me, that’s huge) or touch you or move … or it’s awkward or the whole thing falls flat or it feels mechanical.”
These are all superficial, easy to learn from each other’s preferences. But without certain amount of attraction and emotional attachment, they simply become icky….
“I’ve actually had the opposite experience. There’s too much emphasis on me and it becomes “a thing” to accomplish. (I’m speaking in general.)”
I know, it’s one big difference between Macho and “Chivalry” cultures: In general, gentlemen tend to consider more for women’s needs in many aspects — Rescue Damsels in Stress! Feel lucky you’re born on this side!
“I’m not saying anything new here. I think it was a saying that came out in the ’60s or ’70s. You’re responsible for your own orgasm. I believe that.”
I’m not sure if you’re talking about during sex with a partner or get it through masturbation. I thought in many cultures/religions and definitely in communist systems, the latter is considered un-virtuous, until much later, ‘60s or ‘70s”?
Snow,
“How does one show another how to move, sustain, and invigorate his/her own internal energy or how to sensuously “withdraw”?”
I don’t know what you’re talking about. You wrote you weren’t getting to the finish line. So tell the guy or show him what you need.
“These are all superficial, easy to learn from each other’s preferences.”
Well, then, if you think about it like that, it all can be easy to learn. Every aspect of it.
“But without certain amount of attraction and emotional attachment, they simply become icky….”
Yes, but you also need sexual compatibility.
“I know, it’s one big difference between Macho and “Chivalry” cultures: In general, gentlemen tend to consider more for women’s needs in many aspects — Rescue Damsels in Stress! Feel lucky you’re born on this side!”
Well, the flip side of the chivalry … and I don’t really consider it chivalry but a wish that the other person has a good time (which is a good thing)… is it becomes a goal to accomplish. That drains the joy and spontaneity out of it.
“I’m not sure if you’re talking about during sex with a partner or get it through masturbation.”
Sex with a partner.
“I thought in many cultures/religions and definitely in communist systems, the latter is considered un-virtuous, until much later, ‘60s or ‘70s”?”
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. What is considered unvirtuous? Masturbation?
Marcia,
“I don’t know what you’re talking about. You wrote you weren’t getting to the finish line. So tell the guy or show him what you need.”
I don’t think you understand or agree with the qi/energy-flowing side of sex. Can you breathe for someone else? Can you show someone how to meditate, or he and she has to practice/do it on their own?
“Well, then, if you think about it like that, it all can be easy to learn. Every aspect of it.”
All forms of superficial foreplays can be shown and learned masterfully if a couple is emotionally and mentally attached. But internal “electricity” generating and circulating is up to each partner’s meditative abilities and skills.
“Yes, but you also need sexual compatibility.”
It’s preferred. But many couples are not compatible, despite they’re in love. What are they going to do, walk away? Sexual ability/compatibility can be learned and improved, through energy work such as meditation. But you “dismissed” meditative or tantric skills as “having no patience”. I don’t know how much more I need to stress on this.
“Well, the flip side of the chivalry … and I don’t really consider it chivalry but a wish that the other person has a good time (which is a good thing)… is it becomes a goal to accomplish. That drains the joy and spontaneity out of it.”
The goal for both ends has to be pursued by both sides together, not just one side of performance. I sense that the “joy” here, like many other type of instant gratification people pursue, does not concern too much the health side of it.
“Sex with a partner.”
Well, women in general take a longer time to reach the happy and healthy goal/point. So your point is valid especially for men, they need to take patience and time and know how to sustain their energy during sex…
“I’m not sure what you’re talking about. What is considered unvirtuous? Masturbation?”
Yep. It’s only openly talked about and accepted in this culture, it’s still taboo issue in many cultures.
Now, can we close this topic? I wish you all the good lucks in your dating next round 😊 🫂
My Son Asks for the Story About When We Were Birds
Joe Wilkins
When we were birds,
we veered & wheeled, we flapped & looped—
it’s true, we flew. When we were birds,
we dined on tiny silver fish
& the watery hearts
of flowers. When we were birds
we sistered the dragonfly,
brothered the night-wise bat,
& sometimes when we were birds
we rose as high as we could go—
light cold & strange—
& when we opened our beaked mouths
sundown poured like wine
down our throats.
When we were birds
we worshipped trees, rivers, mountains,
sage knots, rain, gizzard rocks, grub-shot dung piles,
& like all good beasts & wise green things
the mothering sun. We had many gods
when we were birds,
& each in her own way
was good to us, even winter fog,
which found us huddling
in salal or silk tassel,
singing low, sweet songs & closing
our blood-rich eyes & sleeping
the troubled sleep of birds. Yes,
even when we were birds
we were sometimes troubled & tired,
sad for no reason,
& so pretended we were not birds
& fell like stones—
the earth hurtling up to meet us,
our trussed bones readying
to be shattered, our unusually large hearts
pounding for nothing—
yet at the last minute we would flap
& lift, & as we flew, shudderingly away,
we told ourselves that this falling—
we would remember. We thought
we would always
be birds. We didn’t know.
We didn’t know
we could love one another
with such ferocity. That we should.
Cenzontle
Marcelo Hernandez Castillo
Because the bird flew before
there was a word
for flight
years from now
there will be a name
for what you and I are doing.
I licked the mango of the sun—
between its bone and its name
between its color and its weight,
the night was heavier
than the light it hushed.
Pockets of unsteady light.
The bone—
the seed
inside the bone—
the echo
and its echo
and its shape.
Can you wash me without my body
coming apart in your hands?
Call it wound—
call it beginning—
The bird’s beak twisted
into a small circle of awe.
You called it cutting apart,
I called it song.
Pastime
Andrea Cohen
As a child I made things
out of clay—a pig who
could not be eaten, a mule
who refused to carry
anything other than a pig
who could not be eaten.
They were companion
pieces. They kept each
other company, and me.
We kept each other’s
secrets: what flesh can
do with clay, what clay
can do that flesh can’t.
I was a small child who made
small decisions. I made big
people angry. I made them
confused. I
refuse, I refuse.
*****
I was a small child who made
daring decisions. I made big
people angry. I made them
confused, amused. I
ran away. I ran away
in the invisible circles.
🐦🔥
[Say what you will, and scratch my heart to find]
Edna St. Vincent Millay
1892 –1950
Say what you will, and scratch my heart to find
The roots of last year’s roses in my breast;
I am as surely riper in my mind
As if the fruit stood in the stalls confessed.
Laugh at the unshed leaf, say what you will,
Call me in all things what I was before,
A flutterer in the wind, a woman still;
I tell you I am what I was and more.
My branches weigh me down, frost cleans the air.
My sky is black with small birds bearing south;
Say what you will, confuse me with fine care,
Put by my word as but an April truth,—
Autumn is no less on me that a rose
Hugs the brown bough and sighs before it goes.
******
https://youtu.be/437IEsDIZfE?si=ZUTMNiF2-asx5YtU — Autumn Strong | Dimash
Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall
Humpty Dumpty had a puzzling fall
All the king’s horses and all the king’s men
Searched through the LwL hall
Missing Humpty in Alice’s renewed ball
https://youtu.be/rZ7LmnNjMkM?si=5PTk0VhNb2XpskCw — I Miss You | Dimash
So I’ve been in a Barry White mood lately. And I can’t think but this is limerence song, post-LE. Before; great love song. Now; limerence song. Can’t get enough? Who can in limerence?
Miss Snow I saw your reply and will get to it. Just been a busy day at work today. But I haven’t forgotten it. Just wanted to drop in for this.
Barry White — Can’t Get Enough of Your Love
https://youtu.be/0rbqx3d0eKA?si=sy1jDugZNwhlkRWt
Brother Adam,
Please allow me to add to your fine Fly Jams Friday post. Of course well taken from my LOs exquisite and eclectic playlist.. This will help add to your Barry White mood..
This is one of the sexiest slow jams of all time.😆
Quincy Jones
“The Secret Garden”
https://youtu.be/NpYjrixiCGs?si=veIBAi3ofOZn7Xkr
Nice one brother. Can’t believe I don’t know that one. Crazy how guys like Barry White, Al Green, Marvin Gaye, Isley Brothers, Rose Royce and Quincy Jones been helping skinny white boys, like me in the 90’s, hook up with the sisters. 🙂 Nothin’ like brown sugar. 😉
One of my all time favorites, sampled in my all time favorite rap song.
Between The Sheets — Isley Brothers
https://youtu.be/-7KuJZanjCY?si=Jrb36dr1_IFZhPMS
I haven’t heard that one in years..
“Barry White, Al Green, Marvin Gaye, Isley Brothers, Rose Royce and Quincy Jones”
Yeah, like what do us middle aged white boys know about Old School?? 😆
My brother, you seem to have a penchant for the latino sisters the way I do the sisters. Is there a latino Jungle Fever song?
Jungle Fever — Stevie Wonder
https://youtu.be/sBuU4AUqw8E?si=eWnkAO5GfSN3mttB
Brother Adam
I only know and follow very little of that genre music. So I’m not exactly sure about an actual jungle fever type song.
I do know that Latina Women are the most beautiful Women in the world. Of course LO reigning as the most beautiful and spectacular perfect Latina of them all. She is to say “Mi Tesoro” which means My Treasure. This song describes well, how I feel..
Ramon Ayala
“Mi Tesoro”
https://youtu.be/Gx0Nca4gIPg?si=3F1GpIXC4A79dHX4
“I don’t care what they say,
I love you, I adore you,
that’s why I tell everybody
you’re my treasure.”
Brother
I will give this to the latino sisters; they be pulling out in public full on. I hear the clack of high heels in the grocery store I will gamble with a 99.9% confidence that its a 30-40 something latino mother that stepped out in a dress or skirt/blouse combo, high heels, stockings, hair perfect strutting her stuff like shopping is a special occasion. Get behind me Satan!
Adam
Just try to remember
“Latino” and “Latina” are gendered terms, referring to males and females respectively.
Latino referring to males and Latina referring to females.
While “Latinx” is a gender-neutral alternative.
Would hate to find out you disrespected a Latina in the store by referring to her as a Latino.
If you want to get really creative and she’s a blonde Latina, call her a Guerita Hermosa. Which means
Beautiful Blonde. Perhaps you’ll strike up a conversation..
Duly noted brother. Thanks for the clarification.
When a Close Relationship Becomes ‘Enmeshment’
If you’ve lost yourself in a relationship, it may be time to untangle your identities and establish clearer boundaries.
By Christina Caron
Aug. 8, 2025 | NY Times
The same pattern kept repeating itself for Joelyn Chase. Family members continually leaned on her for money and emotional support, she said, causing her to lose sight of where their needs ended and hers began.
“Everything used to be an emergency. ‘Oh my gosh, you need me right now? I need to answer you,’” recalled Ms. Chase, 73, who lives in Greene County, Va., 30 miles north of Charlottesville. “I had to take care of everybody.”
She liked being needed, but at one point she found herself working seven days a week as the sole breadwinner. Only later did she realize that she wasn’t taking care of her own needs. In fact, she wasn’t even sure what those needs were.
Ms. Chase was experiencing “enmeshment,” a term that describes a relationship lacking emotional and psychological boundaries. The term has gotten attention in recent years, with numerous videos exploring it on TikTok; a Reddit forum dedicated to “enmeshment trauma”; and books offering advice on “untangling” yourself and working through the tough feelings that can arise.
“It’s terrifying to set those boundaries,” said Jordan Pickell, a psychotherapist and the author of a book about enmeshment that is set to publish in 2026. “Because what would that mean about me as a person?”
What exactly does ‘enmeshed’ mean?
An enmeshed relationship has a lack of clear boundaries, leading to blurred individual identities.
There can be pressure “to feel, think and act similar,” said Terri Cole, a psychotherapist and the author of “Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency.”
In the process, people in these relationships become disconnected from their authentic selves. “You get to a point where you don’t even know who you are,” she said.
Although Ms. Pickell is a trained counselor, even she has had difficulty separating her identity from that of her sister (whom she had once referred to as her “soul mate”). They are in constant contact, messaging all day and frequently talking for hours on the phone.
To this day their biggest fight stemmed from a disagreement over the man her sister was dating. Ms. Pickell did not approve of the relationship for a number of reasons.
But now she realizes she was also afraid that he would come between them. “I acted like I should have control over who she dates,” Ms. Pickell said.
“Our relationship is incredibly special, but I know it can also be stifling,” she added. “There’s not always room for other people.”
How do I know if I’m in an enmeshed relationship?
Enmeshment often occurs alongside codependency, which is a pattern of behavior in which you prioritize someone else’s needs over your own, often to your detriment. People in enmeshed relationships will often have difficulty identifying their individual thoughts and feelings, the experts said. In Ms. Pickell’s experience as a therapist, this is particularly common among parents and their adult children. But it can also show up in relationships between siblings, significant others and even friends.
A person who is enmeshed may also feel isolated, invisible or trapped, said Nancy L. Johnston, a licensed professional counselor and the author of “Disentangle: When You’ve Lost Your Self in Someone Else.”
From the outside, an enmeshed person may appear to be trying to keep everyone happy while locked in an invasive and controlling relationship.
But from within the enmeshed relationship, oftentimes “the dynamic feels mutual,” Ms. Pickell said.
How do I break free?
Separating from an enmeshed relationship starts with being aware of how your individuality has been eclipsed, Ms. Johnston said. Then, if you’re open to making a change, the rest of the work can begin. Here are several things to try:
Do a daily check-in.
Ask yourself what you’re feeling. Is this your emotion, or are you co-opting someone else’s? How does your body feel when you are entangled with someone else? If it’s creating anxiety you might experience body tension, digestive problems, headaches or difficulty sleeping.
“Some people stay stuck in their thoughts and are not attuned to emotions or body,” Ms. Johnston said. “So we want to round out that self-awareness.”
Name your needs or preferences.
If you’re in a relationship that has made you lose sight of your individual needs and preferences, take time to consider what’s important to you. Maybe it’s something small, like the books you like to read or the foods or hobbies that you prefer.
Or perhaps bigger changes are in order. Ms. Chase realized that she wanted to travel the world and teach abroad once her children were grown, rather than sticking around for the next family crisis. “What am I waiting for?” she recalled wondering.
So for six years, Ms. Chase taught at an international school in Shanghai.
Create more personal space.
Ms. Chase’s move to Shanghai was helpful in creating physical distance between herself and the people with whom she had become most enmeshed. Because of the time difference, “whatever crisis they had, I slept through it,” she said.
But others who are dealing with enmeshment may not require extreme physical distance to reclaim their individuality.
Put time in your calendar that’s just for you, Ms. Cole recommended. You might try a hobby that has always appealed to you and that doesn’t have to do with the other person.
You can also make space by pausing before you react emotionally to something, she added. “Ask yourself: Do I need to fix this? Or can I just witness it with compassion?”
Establish boundaries.
“Boundaries” can sound like a bad word for those who are codependent or enmeshed. But setting healthy boundaries is one of the most important things you can do, the experts said, because you will be establishing limits and expectations for your relationships.
Learn to listen and respond to your own needs and feelings. Practice using “I” statements, such as “I need some extra downtime today, so I can’t come over right now.”
Setting boundaries might mean saying no to a request or disclosing less than you normally would. There’s no need to defend or rationalize your decision.
At first, emotions like guilt and anxiety might pop up. But remember that setting boundaries with a loved one doesn’t mean you need to avoid intimacy or cut ties, Ms. Pickell said.
“The core goal isn’t to create distance but to create differentiation and be your own person,” she said.
Want More Self-Control? The Secret Isn’t Willpower.
People who can delay gratification and master their impulses thrive in life. And experts say that you can learn skills to rein in bad habits.
By Christina Caron
Published July 19, 2025
Updated July 21, 2025 | NY Times
We tend to respect and even idolize those who exhibit a lot of willpower. The friend who hits up the gym five times a week. The social media influencer who maintains a meticulously decorated, camera-ready home. That colleague who manages to stay calm and focused in nearly every situation.
Research suggests that these people are not only viewed as trustworthy but also morally superior. How can we mere mortals compare? Polls show that many Americans are feeling heightened levels of anxiety and stress, which can make delaying gratification and inhibiting impulses even harder.
But willpower shouldn’t be confused with self-control. While you can use willpower to manage your emotions or fight temptation, research suggests that it may not be the most effective method.
To improve willpower, it boils down to “just try harder,” said Kentaro Fujita, a professor of psychology at Ohio State University who studies self-regulation and decision making. But self-control involves a set of skills that can be learned, he added.
Preparation, mind-set and the ability to either avoid or reframe temptation can be far more effective than trying to “force that desire down,” Dr. Fujita said.
First, what is ‘self-control’ and why does it matter?
Traditionally, psychologists have defined self-control as the ability to wait for later, larger rewards. But it can also be thought of as a way to alter your thoughts, feelings and behaviors to reach a specific goal. When we have self-control, we can resist unhealthy impulses and persevere when we feel like quitting, experts say.
Some psychologists have called it the “greatest human strength.” People with stronger self-control are more likely to report higher levels of flourishing and find greater success in life than others; for example, better academic performance, higher earnings, better physical health and better relationships.
How do I get started?
Developing your self-control starts with self-empowerment, said Ethan Kross, the director of the Emotion and Self-Control Lab at the University of Michigan and author of “Shift: Managing Your Emotions So They Don’t Manage You.”
Research shows that believing you are capable of self-control can help you succeed, he said. After all, “if you don’t think you can control yourself then why would you make any efforts to do so?” Dr. Kross asked.
Focus on the times when you have succeeded in accomplishing a goal related to the one you’re focused on now, he suggested. For example, he said: “I was able to maintain my cool when I was stuck in terrible traffic last week, so I should be able to do it now.”
You can also try thinking about times when a family member or friend was successful and ask them for any tips: If they can do it, you can too.
What are some strategies?
There are multiple strategies for improving self-control, and research suggests that trying several is more effective than picking just one. Here are some options:
Create routines: One study from 2015 found that people who are good at self-control tend to structure their lives in such a way that they avoid having to make decisions in the moment. This could be by scheduling the same activity, like running or meditating, at the same time each day.
Monitor your progress: Keep notes tracking what you have done each day toward your goal by using a journal, a calendar or an audio recording. Monitoring is the easiest and fastest way to improve self-control, said Roy F. Baumeister, a professor emeritus at Florida State University who has studied the topic for three decades.
Edit your inner circle: Energy vampires, the type of people who leave you feeling drained, will deplete your ability to exert self-control. Likewise, people who support you and lift you up will give you a greater capacity for self-control.
Consider the well-being of the group: Americans are quick to focus on individual desires rather than the needs of the community as a whole, said Scott Haas, a clinical psychologist in Boston who wrote a book about what Japanese culture can teach about well-being. By focusing less on ourselves, we can find the motivation to exert self-control, he added.
Say your flight is severely delayed. Instead of yelling at the customer service desk, ask yourself: “What aspect of my behavior will have an impact on others around me if I lose my temper?”
How do I change my mind-set?
Self-control is much easier when you reframe your thoughts to make your emotions feel less extreme, reduce the lure of a temptation or pinpoint a specific goal.
When people have trouble controlling their emotions, their mood is often exacerbated by negative thoughts like, “I can’t believe I made such a dumb mistake!” Try reframing that thought in a more neutral way to regain equilibrium. For example: “I’m human and like many others, I made a mistake — I’ll take accountability.”
Likewise, you can reframe temptations. “Sleeping in is less attractive if it means becoming unemployed or seen by others as irresponsible,” Dr. Fujita said.
Having a clear goal in mind can help you create a structure for self-control. One proven technique is called the WOOP method (it stands for wish, outcome, obstacle, plan). First, name a wish that you think you can achieve: Say you want to go to the gym more regularly to strengthen your back muscles. Next, imagine the best possible outcome after reaching that goal: You will have less back pain and feel more fit. Then think about what might get in your way: The gym is 40 minutes away. Finally, make a plan to overcome that obstacle: Look for a gym or a Pilates class that is closer to home.
And remember, attaining better self-control is not an all-or-nothing pursuit. If you slip up from time to time or allow yourself a cheat day, you can still make progress toward your goal. The key is to keep going.
“Moderation might actually be the more sustainable and more realistic approach,” Dr. Fujita said. “You know you are going to fail. The question is: How are you going to respond?”
Stress, Worry and Anxiety Are All Different. How Do You Cope With Each?
Have you experienced an increase in stress, worry or anxiety recently? What do you do to deal with it?
By Jeremy Engle
March 11, 2020 | NY Times
In “The Difference Between Worry, Stress and Anxiety,” Emma Pattee writes:
You probably experience worry, stress or anxiety at least once on any given day. Nearly 40 million people in the U.S. suffer from an anxiety disorder, according to the Anxiety and Depression Association of America. Three out of four Americans reported feeling stressed in the last month, a 2017 study found. But in one of these moments, if asked which you were experiencing — worry, stress or anxiety — would you know the difference?
Does anything in that paragraph resonate with you? How would you define the differences between stress, worry and anxiety? Which do you think you’ve experienced, and what strategies have you used for coping?
In her article, Ms. Pattee defines each, explains how each works and suggests steps to help regulate your symptoms. We have included most of her article below:
What is worry?
Worry is what happens when your mind dwells on negative thoughts, uncertain outcomes or things that could go wrong. “Worry tends to be repetitive, obsessive thoughts,” said Melanie Greenberg, a clinical psychologist in Mill Valley, Calif., and the author of “The Stress-Proof Brain” (2017). “It’s the cognitive component of anxiety.” Simply put, worry happens only in your mind, not in your body.
How does worry work?
Worry actually has an important function in our lives, according to Luana Marques, an associate professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and the president of the Anxiety and Depression Association of America. When we think about an uncertain or unpleasant situation — such as being unable to pay the rent, or doing badly on an exam — our brains become stimulated. When we worry, it calms our brains down. Worry is also likely to cause us to problem-solve or take action, both of which are positive things. “Worry is a way for your brain to handle problems in order to keep you safe,” Dr. Marques explained. “It’s only when we get stuck thinking about a problem that worry stops being functional.”
Three things to help your worries:
Give yourself a worry “budget,” an amount of time in which you allow yourself to worry about a problem. When that time is up (start with 20 minutes), consciously redirect your thoughts.
When you notice that you’re worried about something, push yourself to come up with a next step or to take action.
Write your worries down. Research has shown that just eight to 10 minutes of writing can help calm obsessive thoughts.
Remember: Worry is helpful only if it leads to change, not if it turns into obsessive thoughts.
What is stress?
Stress is a physiological response connected to an external event. In order for the cycle of stress to begin, there must be a stressor. This is usually some kind of external circumstance, like a work deadline or a scary medical test. “Stress is defined as a reaction to environmental changes or forces that exceed the individual’s resources,” Dr. Greenberg said.
How does stress work?
In prehistoric times, stress was a natural response to a threat, like hearing a predator in the bushes. Today, it still prompts a behavioral response, firing up your limbic system and releasing adrenaline and cortisol, which help activate your brain and body to deal with the threat, Dr. Greenberg explained. Symptoms of stress include a rapid heart rate, clammy palms and shallow breath. Stress might feel good at first, as the adrenaline and cortisol flood your body, Dr. Marques said. You might have experienced the benefits of stress as you raced through traffic to get to an appointment, or pulled together an important assignment in the final hour. That’s called “acute stress,” and the rush wore off when the situation was resolved (i.e. you turned in your assignment).
Chronic stress, on the other hand, is when your body stays in this fight-or-flight mode continuously (usually because the situation doesn’t resolve, as with financial stressors or a challenging boss). Chronic stress is linked to health concerns such as digestive issues, an increased risk of heart disease and a weakening of the immune system.
Three things to help your stress:
Get exercise. This is a way for your body to recover from the increase of adrenaline and cortisol.
Get clear on what you can and can’t control. Then focus your energy on what you can control and accept what you can’t.
Don’t compare your stress with anyone else’s stress. Different people respond differently to stressful situations.
Remember: Stress is a biological response that is a normal part of our lives.
What is anxiety?
If stress and worry are the symptoms, anxiety is the culmination. Anxiety has a cognitive element (worry) and a physiological response (stress), which means that we experience anxiety in both our mind and our body. “In some ways,” Dr. Marques said, “anxiety is what happens when you’re dealing with a lot of worry and a lot of stress.”
How does anxiety work?
Remember how stress is a natural response to a threat? Well, anxiety is the same thing … except there is no threat.
“Anxiety in some ways is a response to a false alarm,” said Dr. Marques, describing a situation, for example, in which you show up at work and somebody gives you an off look. You start to have all the physiology of a stress response because you’re telling yourself that your boss is upset with you, or that your job might be at risk. The blood is flowing, the adrenaline is pumping, your body is in a state of fight or flight — but there is no predator in the bushes.
There is also a difference between feeling anxious (which can be a normal part of everyday life) and having an anxiety disorder. An anxiety disorder is a serious medical condition that may include stress or worry.
Three things to help your anxiety:
Limit your sugar … and caffeine intake. Because anxiety is physiological, stimulants may have a significant impact.
Check in with your toes. How do they feel? Wiggle them. This kind of refocusing can calm you and break the anxiety loop.
When you’re in the middle of an anxiety episode, talking or thinking about it will not help you. Try to distract yourself with your senses: Listen to music, jump rope for five minutes, or rub a piece of Velcro or velvet.
Remember: Anxiety happens in your mind and your body so trying to think your way out of it won’t help.
10 Ways to Support Your Mental Health
These simple and proven strategies will help you manage stress and find meaning
By Christina Caron and Dana G. Smith
Dec. 28, 2023 | NY Times
Since the height of the pandemic, there has been a cultural shift in the way we talk about mental health. It’s as though the years of isolation and uncertainty helped us understand how vital our emotional needs were to our overall well-being.
Now that we’re paying more attention to our inner lives, it’s also essential that we take action. Fortunately, there are a number of things that everyone can do to nourish their mental health and find moments of joy.
1. Try a proven way to sleep better.
Experts say that getting enough sleep is one of the most important things we can do for our mental health. If you’re having trouble falling or staying asleep, studies have found that cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, or C.B.T.-I., is as effective as using sleep medications in the short term — and more effective in the long term. C.B.T.-I. helps people address anxieties about sleep and find ways to relax. To find a provider, try the Society of Behavioral Sleep Medicine directory.
2. Learn how to tell whether your anxiety is protective or problematic.
It’s normal to feel anxious from time to time. In fact, having some anxiety can actually be useful. Experts say an internal alarm system can improve our performance, help us recognize danger and even encourage us to be more conscientious. So we asked Dr. Petros Levounis, the president of the American Psychiatric Association: How much anxiety is too much?
“If you start to notice that worry and fear are there constantly, that is a signal that you need some help,” he said.
Other signs to look out for include restlessness, a sense of fear or doom, increased heart rate, sweating, trembling and trouble concentrating.
3. Stop the worry cycle.
If you have a tendency to ruminate, there are a few simple ways to curb the habit. The first is to distract yourself: Research shows that diversions can help get your mind off whatever is stressing you out. Try playing a word game or listening to music, paying close attention to the lyrics.
Other times, it’s better not to fight the urge — but that doesn’t mean you should let your thoughts spiral out of control. Set a timer for 10 to 30 minutes of dedicated rumination time, and give yourself permission to mentally mull things over. When the timer goes off, it’s time to move on.
4. Practice ‘5 things tidying.’
When you’re struggling with your mental health, basic tasks like washing dishes or doing laundry can feel impossible. But living amid mess can make you feel even worse. KC Davis, a licensed professional counselor and author of the book “How to Keep House While Drowning,” advises focusing on function over aesthetics — your home doesn’t have to be perfect, but it should be livable.
An efficient way to keep things from getting out of hand is to practice what she calls “five things tidying.” Tackle the five main categories of clutter — trash, dishes, laundry, things with a place and things without a place — one at a time to help cleaning feel more manageable.
5. Embrace gratitude.
Gratitude is a positive emotion that can arise when you acknowledge that you have goodness in your life and that other people — or higher powers, if you believe in them — have helped you achieve that goodness.
To really reap the benefits of gratitude, experts say, it’s important to express it whenever possible. That might include writing letters of thanks or listing the positive things in your life in a journal. Giving thanks to friends, romantic partners and even co-workers can also offer a relationship boost.
6. Be optimistic about aging.
Research shows that mindset really matters when it comes to health, and it can even extend your life. A classic study found that people who were optimistic about aging lived seven and a half years longer than those who had negative perceptions of it.
To adopt a more positive outlook about getting older, shift your focus to the benefits of aging, like better emotional well-being and higher emotional intelligence. Look for aging role models, too: older people who stay physically active and engaged in their communities, or those with traits that you admire.
7. Participate in the arts.
The notion that art can improve mental well-being is something many people intuitively understand but don’t necessarily put into practice.
You don’t need talent to give it a try, experts say. Writing a poem, singing or drawing can all help elevate your mood, no matter how creative you consider yourself to be. One of the easiest ways to get started is to color something intricate: Spending 20 minutes coloring a mandala (a complex geometric design) is more helpful for reducing anxiety than free-form coloring for the same length of time, research has found.
8. Look for a little bit of awe every day.
Sometimes we have to remind ourselves to connect with the physical world around us. Enter the awe walk.
Pick a walking spot (either new or familiar) and imagine that you’re seeing it for the first time. Then pay attention to your senses. Feel the wind on your face, touch the petals of a flower. Simply notice the sky. It can be more restorative than you might expect.
9. Take a tech break.
If you’re having trouble focusing, it’s not just you. Research has found that over the past two decades, the amount of time we spend on a given task has shrunk to an average of just 47 seconds, down from two and a half minutes. Technology is often to blame.
To regain control of your concentration, Larry Rosen, a professor emeritus of psychology at California State University, Dominguez Hills, suggested a strategy he calls “tech breaks.” Set a timer for 15 minutes, then silence and set aside your phone. When time is up, take one or two minutes to check your favorite apps — that’s your tech break — and get back to work for another 15-minute cycle. The goal is to gradually increase the time between your tech breaks, building up to 45 minutes (or more) away from your phone.
10. Take a deep breath.
One of the fastest, easiest ways you can calm your mind and body is by taking slow, deep breaths. Doing so helps to turn up your parasympathetic nervous system — the counterbalance to the “fight or flight” stress response — and lower your blood pressure and regulate your heart rate.
One breathing exercise that can be particularly helpful for mitigating fear and anxiety is 4-4-8 breathing, where you inhale for four counts, hold your breath for four counts and exhale for eight counts.
Before You Offer Advice, Ask This Question
It’s simple, but it isn’t easy.
By Jancee Dunn
Published Aug. 8, 2025
Updated Aug. 9, 2025, 12:41 p.m. | NY Times
My two younger sisters have always sought my advice. When we were teenagers, for instance, they consulted me about dating.
At that time, I had laughably little experience, so my guidance wasn’t exactly evidence-based. But because I delivered it in a crisp, decisive tone, my sisters accepted it without question.
Now they seek it on more middle-aged matters, like career questions and which reading glasses to buy. Sometimes, though, I go overboard.
My sister Dinah was recently venting about paying for her daughter’s college. I quickly chimed in with suggestions about what she should do, even though it was clear that she just wanted to share her fears — and I don’t actually have a child in college.
Doling out advice can make you feel powerful, helpful and even generous. But unsolicited advice can backfire, said Alexandra Solomon, a clinical psychologist and host of the “Reimagining Love” podcast.
“In its simplest form, it’s a boundary violation,” Dr. Solomon said. You’ve involved yourself without an invitation, she added.
How to give better advice
Research suggests that when we give advice, it’s often biased toward our own experiences. We share insights that we would find useful, but they might not be as relevant to the other person, said Richard Larrick, a professor of management and organizations at Duke University’s Fuqua School of Business.
There’s also evidence that unsolicited advice can harm relationships. And in the workplace, such advice can be seen as self-serving and is more likely to be ignored. Conversely, other research suggests that when people ask for advice, it is viewed by recipients as more valuable.
So before you jump in with suggestions, Dr. Solomon said, you should ask this simple question: “Do you want my advice?”
Why this approach works
Getting permission to proceed is such a small gesture, but it can make the listener feel more empowered, said Shannon O’Neill, a psychologist at Mount Sinai West. “They made the choice to hear you out,” she said. “And that allows an individual, hopefully, to be less defensive and less resistant.”
Dr. Solomon, who uses this strategy with her own family, admits that sometimes she forgets. Last week, her son played his new voice mail greeting for her.
Immediately, she jumped in, said he should rerecord it and gave him some reasons why.
“Then I’m like, Why I do that? He’s a grown-ass man,” she said, and she quickly apologized.
Another way to train yourself not to automatically dispense advice, Dr. Larrick said, is to reframe the issue by brainstorming about what the other person could do rather than making declarations about they should do.
Now, instead of issuing a command, I ask my sisters if they want my advice.
At first, they reacted with suspicion because they’re so used to me firing off an opinion. Now, sometimes, their answer is a cheerful “nope.”
I just woke up from a horrible dream about LO. I dreamed I was at his house, and all sorts of things went wrong. I had my pet chinchilla with me, and he got loose somehow and I couldn’t find him.
I had many possessions scattered throughout the house and I couldn’t find them. LO was alternatively kindly and angry, and I felt off-balance. I guess that part pretty much describes our relationship.
There were a number of other people there that I didn’t know. At one point, a bus overturned outside and the police were called. I don’t know if this pertains to a real-life incident which happened recently–LO’s neighbor across the street, and another friend of mine, was hit by a drunk driver while loading surfboards into his truck. The man will survive, but it’s a long rehabilitation. Super-nice man that I have known longer than I have known LO.
There are other details that are too sordid and cringey to go into. Suffice it to say that I felt I was being mocked by LO and the others present. Guessing this just indicates that I feel disrespected by LO, which is no great revelation.
It’s odd how a dream can affect a person. I feel exhausted and overwhelmed.
Maybe it’s your brain doing some sorting out and processing for you and that it’s a sign of figuring things out?
I dreamed about… my first boyfriend! So weird. I don’t ever think about him. It would have been nicer to dream about my husband, but I’m glad it wasn’t LO.
To Miss Cloud:
I suppose that’s the case. I mainly felt out of control, out of place and inferior to everyone there.
I forgot one detail. I dreamed that LO and his friends sedated me and used my body as a table to serve M&M candies. I have no idea what that means.
Did you happen to watch Tom Petty’s “Don’t Come Around Here” video before going to bed?
To Miss Cloud:
No, I didn’t, but if I had, that would certainly explain a few things.
My dream was surprisingly similar to that video.
Except of course LO’s house instead of that checkerboard pattern.
That is pretty weird and sinister. Were you glad to wake up?
To Miss Cloud:
It wasn’t as scary as it sounds. But yes, I was glad to wake up.
Sorry, above comment to Serial Limerent. I do get confused easily.
How ‘Fawning’ Is Ruining Your Relationships
Excessive people pleasing can trap you in a cycle of insecurity. Here’s how to break the habit.
By Jancee Dunn
Published Aug. 6, 2025
Updated Aug. 9, 2025 | NY Times
Meg Josephson, a psychotherapist in San Francisco, once had a client who said she left every social event convinced, without any proof, that everyone hated her.
It was a pattern Ms. Josephson recognized both in herself and in her other clients. It’s the prickle of alarm when a friend’s text ends with a period instead of a “friendly” exclamation point. It’s the “tailspin of insecurity,” as Ms. Josephson put it, that occurs after a neighbor doesn’t say hello. It’s hearing that your boss wants to chat with you and immediately assuming you’re going to be fired.
So Ms. Josephson posted a video on social media to say, “You’re OK — they’re not secretly mad at you.”
Thousands of people commented that they had similar fears. (“I realized how much I torture myself” was a typical response.)
This nagging feeling that you’re in trouble is common, Ms. Josephson said, and there’s a name for the strategy that some people use to keep it at bay: fawning.
When we sense danger, our nervous systems can respond in three ways: fight, flight or freeze. But some psychologists, like Ms. Josephson, believe that fawning is a fourth stress response. The term was coined by Pete Walker, a psychologist in Berkeley, California, who has written about complex post-traumatic stress disorder. He defines fawning as a protective response developed in childhood as a reaction to trauma — an extreme form of people pleasing.
Research on fawning is still emerging, said Nora Brier, an assistant professor of clinical psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania Perelman School of Medicine. It has been cited as a reaction to interpersonal violence, a form of dissociation and a submissive response to avoid conflict. However, Dr. Brier cautioned that there wasn’t enough evidence yet to consider fawning a nervous system response such as fight, flight or freeze, but she added, “I would love to see fawning be considered for more research.”
People who fawn scramble to be helpful and agreeable to a person who is a threat, said Ms. Josephson, who has been a practicing therapist for five years and has 337,000 followers on Instagram. She grew up in a chaotic household in which she was constantly mollifying and accommodating her volatile father.
Fawning is sometimes necessary to keep us safe, she said, whether it’s for our physical security or for a paycheck. But for those stuck in the fawn response, the impulse to be vigilant to threats and emotionally monitor others is in overdrive, and it spills over into situations in which we’re actually safe “but our body thinks we’re not,” she said.
With her new book, “Are You Mad at Me? How to Stop Focusing on What Others Think and Start Living for You,” Ms. Josephson hopes to help people who think that “I can’t feel OK unless the other person is OK,” she said.
I asked Ms. Josephson to explain three key takeaways from her book that can help people stop the urge to fawn.
Don’t automatically assume you did something wrong.
You can challenge your perception that someone is mad at you, Ms. Josephson said, by asking these questions: Is this story I’m telling myself absolutely true? Is this person’s behavior unusual or just consistent with how he communicates? Could there be other reasons for the person’s perceived distance, such as work stress or a recent breakup?
For example, when a friend doesn’t text Ms. Josephson back, she sometimes thinks, “Oh my gosh, is it something I said?” Then she reminds herself of the many times that she has received a text that later said, “Sorry, I was in a meeting,” or “Sorry, I responded to you in my mind.”
It’s not that people won’t ever be mad at you. But it’s helpful to pause and remind yourself that your anxious mind has lied to you in the past, she said.
Check fawning behavior by starting small.
For people who habitually fawn, it can feel intimidating to set boundaries and say no, Ms. Josephson said. So begin with low-stakes situations.
Notice when you’re using people-pleasing phrases that you don’t actually mean, such as “no problem” if something does present a problem, and “is this OK with you?” if it’s not OK with you.
If, for example, someone is apologizing for hurting you, your instinct may be to rush to relieve the person of guilt by saying something along the lines of, “No, it’s totally fine,” Ms. Josephson said.
Instead, she said, you can say, “Thank you, I’m glad we’re talking about this.”
And if a person tells you that she is not mad at you, take her word for it, Ms. Josephson said. “Get comfortable with the discomfort of taking what people say at face value without second-guessing what else they could secretly be feeling.”
“If someone is being passive-aggressive in their communication and not directly bringing something to you, there’s nothing for you to fix,” Ms. Josephson writes. “You shouldn’t have to work to master ESP.”
Make honest communication your goal.
When we’re fawning, Ms. Josephson said, “the fearful part of ourselves chooses dishonest harmony over deep, authentic connection.” But honest and clear communication is the most important part of any relationship, and it erases the need to read between the lines, Ms. Josephson said.
Practice being more direct with someone you feel safe around. Tell the person you are doing this and ask for help, she said.
If you are canceling plans, for example, be honest instead of making up an excuse so that the person won’t be upset with you. “This practice might be uncomfortable in the short term but saves us so much energy in the long-term,” she said. “And it strengthens the relationships we really value.”
The next time you have the urge to fawn, Ms. Josephson said, give yourself an authenticity check: Do I really mean what I’m about to say? Am I saying something I don’t mean to try to appease the other person?
“It’s not in your control to make someone else happy,” Ms. Josephson said. What is in your control, she added, “is how you spend your time, your energy and your focus.”
OPINION
GUEST ESSAY | NY Times
In ‘And Just Like That…’ a Craven Era Took Its Revenge on Youth and Hope and Fun
Aug. 13, 2025
By Jennifer Weiner
Ms. Weiner, a novelist, writes frequently about gender and culture.
Once upon a time, HBO aired a hit show that spun a brand-new kind of fairy tale, a glittering fantasy of single-lady life in New York City.
The year was 1998. Bill Clinton was president. Donald Trump was a New York City tabloid fixture. Roe v. Wade was the law of the land.
Into this brave new world strode “Sex and the City,” the story of a quartet of glamorous New York City women who worked and dated, vacationed and shopped, went clubbing and dancing and enjoyed fulfilling casual sex — just like men!
Over the next six seasons, the show offered a message both hopeful and progressive: A woman — or, at least a thin, white, financially privileged woman — could have a rich, fulfilling life, one that didn’t necessarily involve a ring and a white picket fence, one where friendships, not romance or marriage, were the relationships that sustained you.
You could, like Charlotte, divorce a man who looked perfect on paper, and then find yourself falling for your crass, hairy-backed, big-hearted divorce lawyer. You could, like Miranda, make partner at your law firm, become a single mother then marry your baby’s father and live together in Brooklyn.
You could, like Carrie, find your one true love, or you could, like Samantha, tell your handsome boyfriend that you love him but you love yourself more. You had options of the traditional and nontraditional variety, and they all included designer clothes, gorgeous shoes and great real estate.
The show was a hit. And if the charm of it faded a bit on later nostalgia re-viewings — if Carrie appeared less delightfully madcap than entitled and irresponsible; if Miranda seemed cold and Charlotte seemed ditzy and Samantha seemed to objectify her partners; if the whole collective manhunt seemed maybe not so empoweringly feminist, I still recalled the show fondly, like the remembered taste of a Magnolia Bakery cupcake.
In 2021, HBO Max launched a reboot, and viewers re-met Carrie, Charlotte and Miranda, now in their 50s. If “Sex and the City” was a fizzy, edgy, envelope-pushing frolic, a reflection of a hopeful time, its sequel, “And Just Like That…,” was overblown and dispiriting. It felt less like a romp than a slog. It’s not an overtly political show, but it is a reflection of a very different era, when retrenchment was underway. Many of those thrilling possibilities now feel impossible.
Episode by episode, the show seemed intent on yanking happiness and contentment from underneath its protagonists, making them look like glamorous Rip van Winkles as they bungled pronouns and interactions with Black people and turned entirely ordinary parenting problems into crises. Our beloved heroines were exposed as physically frail, blinkered, clueless cartoons, caricatures of the characters we’d once loved.
Sure, this unfolded against a backdrop of dazzling real estate and beautiful clothes, with heroines who never seemed to worry about money. But the froth had blown away.
Maybe it was inevitable, given our current pendulum swing to the right, when influential figures discuss revoking women’s right not just to choose but to vote, when tradwife is a social ideal, where two highly qualified women have failed to crack the highest glass ceiling and #MeToo accusers are regarded with more suspicion and scorn than the men they accuse.
As network after corporation after university has bent the knee to a new political reality, paying settlements, walking back DEI initiatives and tendering mea culpas to the ultimate Mr. Big, “And Just Like That…” began to feel like an apology for “Sex and the City”: Did we tell you that women could be happy, even if they were single; that it was OK to chase success instead of men? Our bad!
How did “And Just Like That …” atone? How did it punish the ladies for their youthful optimism? Let us count the ways.
Did you want to believe that Carrie Bradshaw had finally found her happily ever after with Mr. Big, resolving the profound recurring tension of the first series? Surprise! The sequel killed him off in the premiere, leaving Carrie bereft — and in need of hip surgery.
Maybe you imagined Miranda peacefully partnered and living in Brooklyn? Alas, Miranda spiraled into alcoholism and embarked on a journey of sexual self-discovery that included an interlude with one of the most justly ridiculed TV characters ever.
But surely Charlotte, the most traditional of the foursome, is still content with her loving husband? She is! Except her children are spoiled and demanding and her husband’s got prostate cancer. Dear reader, I regret to inform you we have seen him pee his pants.
Only Samantha escaped with her dignity intact, because she gave the series a wide berth.
True, “And Just Like That …” offered some of the pleasures that made “Sex and the City” consumerist catnip. And the women’s friendship was still front and center.
But mostly, the reboot was a dispiriting trek through a world of hurt, where all a woman’s pleasures, all of her achievements and success, came at a cost.
Candace Bushnell is the writer who created “Sex and the City,” as a newspaper column in The New York Observer. But lately the show has made me think of a different writer: Erica Jong, the spiritual godmother to the sex-columnist-and-girl-about-town model that Carrie so gleefully embodied. (Carrie even name-checks her in Season 3, with the line “politics had always seemed as relevant to me as a new Erica Jong novel.” Ouch.)
In 1973, Ms. Jong published “Fear of Flying,” a roman-a-clef in which the young, pretty and privileged Isadora Wing leaves her husband and road trips through Europe seeking creative and sexual fulfillment. The message was that women didn’t have to stay in unfulfilling marriages. That bigger, richer lives beckoned. That message sold more than 20 million copies and made Ms. Jong a celebrated figure.
This year, that book got another kind of sequel, when Molly Jong-Fast, Ms. Jong’s only child, published a memoir called “How to Lose Your Mother.” The book depicts Erica Jong, now suffering from dementia, as a narcissist, a drunk, a disinterested parent who was either mining Molly’s life for material or ditching her to pursue her own adventures. The memoir, like “And Just Like That…,” serves as a generational rebuke to the women who prioritized careers and sex and fame and fortune over family, and a warning to any mothers foolish enough to follow Ms. Jong’s bad example.
For those of us who loved the originals, the rise of the reboots feels chilling, especially since it could be decades before the next pendulum swing. While we’re waiting, if you want a show about middle-aged women and the friendships that sustain them, where humor abounds and nobody gets punished for having sex or seeking fulfillment, there’s always “The Golden Girls.” Less couture, more caftans; less Gramercy Park townhouses, more Miami ranch houses, but all the joy and laughs that “And Just Like That…” didn’t deliver.
To Snow:
Thank you for posting this. I tried watching Sex & The City and was horribly triggered. The women’s lifestyle made me terribly uncomfortable and I have nothing in common with any of them. I wouldn’t touch the sequel.
For you, Norma —
*******
11 Women, 9 Dogs, Not Much Drama (and No Guys)
These retired women in Texas have been through infertility, illness, layoffs, addiction and disappointing marriages. Now they are trying to create a utopia just for themselves.
Lisa Miller and Shelby Tauber reported from Cumby, Texas.
Published Aug. 7, 2025
Updated Aug. 10, 2025 |NY Times
Eleven women live at The Bird’s Nest, a tiny-house village in East Texas, a remote spot where the hay bales look as big as school buses and roads have numbers instead of names. The women, nine of whom are retired and range in age from about 60 to 80 years old, share the explicit goal of keeping one another company into old age, possibly until death. The Bird’s Nest declares itself a women-only community, and the inhabitants broadly agree that, at this age, women are easier long-term companions than men.
Most of The Bird’s Nest women are single — as are half of American women 65 and older. Most are also divorced, one has never been married and one, a widow, has “the perfect relationship” with a man who lives out of state. Among them, they have 21 children and two dozen grandchildren who are scattered across the country from Washington State to Arkansas. Nine dogs live on the property: “our babies,” they call them. For a while, the women kept a turkey named Turk, a goose named Mother and three ducks. But over time, they found they couldn’t keep up with the poop. When Turk developed an aggressive streak, they decided the birds had to go.
“I loved that turkey,” said Robyn Yerian, wistfully.
Yerian is The Bird’s Nest property owner, a 70-year-old extrovert with cropped, bleached hair and a cheerful demeanor. I was sitting with her and her neighbors in “the kitchen” at The Bird’s Nest, which is not a kitchen at all but a large, open-air portico that functions as a community lounge. Strung with twinkle lights and dangling with ceiling fans and painted signs — “Like a Band of Gypsies We Go Down the Highway” — it’s where the women gather to eat, chat and play cards late into the night. Nearby, raised vegetable beds were bursting with zucchini. The mobile tiny houses, some encircled with sunflowers, resembled fairy-tale abodes.
Who made the decision to get rid of the birds? I asked.
The others chimed in. In addition to making a mess, the birds were antagonizing the dogs and, sometimes, the people.
“We had a discussion,” said Cheryl Huff firmly. She is a former first-grade teacher, Yerian’s closest friend and an original member of The Bird’s Nest.
“There were rumblings,” Yerian conceded. She understood. Sometimes Turk slept in her lap, but her fondness for the birds was not shared by all. “It’s not just my house. You know?”
I traveled to The Bird’s Nest in mid-July because I had been searching for real-life examples of a fantasy I have had since my 20s. After child-rearing and a career, my friends and I would buy a big house somewhere affordable and cohabitate the way we had done in college: cooking and laughing and hanging out, chipping in for accessibility ramps and health-help as needed. (Less considered were the lifestyle preferences of our then-hypothetical partners.) This fantasy, or versions of it — aging among female friends — is rampant among the women I know. It circulates on Facebook groups; we share news articles about this community in London, that one in France. Phil Levin, the founder of Live Near Friends, a Bay Area start-up that facilitates group living, said half the inquiries he receives are from women over 50.
Small houses and recreational vehicles on a green lot.
The women of The Bird’s Nest are not the richest of American women, nor the poorest. They are retired from administrative and helping jobs: teacher, nanny, pricing specialist for a grocery store chain, data analyst, customer service agent, legal secretary, home health aide. Two were laid off at around age 60, cutting short their earning years. The wage gap between men and women — in which women earn, on average, 82 cents for every dollar earned by men and which widens with age — persists into retirement. According to the AARP, 64 percent of American women ages 50 to 64 who are not retired and not married have less than $50,000 in retirement savings, compared to 52 percent of men. Women’s Social Security payout is, on average, 20 percent less than men’s.
Two lesbians, married, live at The Bird’s Nest (one identifies as a “tree hugger”), as does one Republican gun owner; one Bible-believing Christian conservative; and several women who call themselves “military brats.” They have been through a lot, but not any more or less than other women: cancer, infertility, addiction, mental health issues, domestic abuse. A few have grown children living nearby and enjoy hosting grandchild sleepovers, annual trips to Ireland, fishing vacations in Michigan. Other adult children live at an emotional distance, painful reminders of parenting regrets. The late-night sessions in the kitchen often resemble free group therapy, observed Trish Earixson, one half of the married couple.
The women disagree about a lot of things, especially politics. It’s Texas. Inside their tiny homes, one woman may be writing postcards to swing states and another may be studying her Bible, but they have agreed not to argue about any of it in their common spaces.
“We say we respect each other,” Huff continues, but “it’s hard.”
They’ve made the choice to be in this together, which means that when Katharine Wickham falls off her deck while stomping down a Styrofoam box, the others will drive her to urgent care. And when Huff has knee replacement, her neighbors will pick up pain medication and bring food to her door. “We are at the age where a lot of things that we used to think were so important don’t matter anymore, and we just let a lot go,” Huff said.
All of the women agree that their first rule, unwritten yet strictly and collectively enforced, is the one Yerian and Huff came up with at the beginning, back in 2022: no drama. Or at least, not much. No one at The Bird’s Nest “gets their endorphins from stirring things up,” said Huff.
Staying Out of the Nursing Home
Yerian would not attribute the founding of The Bird’s Nest to any kind of “vision.” She is an act-first, think-later kind of person: “When I think of ‘vision,’ I think, you have an intention. You write it down on paper.” This community, she said, evolved from a group of hard-working women forced to meet a need: to live independently as long as possible with little to no financial cushion. “My goal is really to keep people out of nursing homes,” she told me. A 2019 study supports her hunch: Women with more social ties have a 10 percent longer life span and 41 percent higher odds of surviving to age 85 than women with fewer ties, regardless of their demographic characteristics or health conditions.
Image:
Cheryl Huff, watering the garden outside her home, helped come up with the motto for The Bird’s Nest: no drama.
Image:
Residents of The Bird’s Nest avoid talking about potentially divisive topics like politics. “We say we respect each other,” Huff said, but “it’s hard.”
Yerian did not even start putting money into a 401(k) until she was 50. She had been a young stay-at-home mother, dealing with a disastrous marriage, before taking up a job at Clorox, in Dallas, where she worked for more than 20 years. She bought a small house and earned a good living. But by age 60, she still could not comfortably retire. To preserve her independence into old age, she knew she had to reduce her expenses while also stretching her savings.
As she watched an episode of “Tiny House Nation” a decade ago, Yerian wondered whether “going tiny,” as the enthusiasts say, might address her long-term affordability problem. On impulse, she attended a tiny-home jamboree in Colorado Springs, and after touring 50 tinies in a weekend, she was sold.
She bought her tiny home for $55,000 in 2017. It is customized to accommodate a full-size oven, a sleeping loft and an heirloom cabinet that holds her mother’s stemware. Then Yerian bought 5.5 unincorporated acres in Hopkins County, had the property zoned as an R.V. park, installed water, electric and sewage lines and 14 10-by-30-foot concrete pads. Her vision was taking shape. She would establish herself here, earning passive income by renting plots to fellow tiny-home owners. She sold her house and cashed out her 401(k). She spent $150,000 on The Bird’s Nest — everything she had.
Image:
Kim Earixson, left, and her wife Trish. When Trish suggested to Kim that they move to the Bird’s Nest from a historic town in Illinois, she said, “you’re flipping crazy.”
The buyer’s remorse set in almost immediately. When she visited her investment, she saw a scorched piece of ground so remote she couldn’t even find someone to mow it. “It would just be so overgrown and depressing,” she said. If she was really honest with herself, this place — 70 miles from Dallas, 20 miles from Sulphur Springs, with patchy cell service and little shade — was not anyone’s retirement ideal, not even her own.
But Yerian was out of options. She moved her tiny house to The Bird’s Nest in late December 2021. Huff joined her, towing her own, even tinier house to Yerian’s plot. Initially, they had no internet and no postal address. “It was like ‘Little House on the Prairie.’ Literally,” Huff said
How did you spend your time? I asked Huff.
“Robyn and I dug so many holes,” she replied.
Their idea was to create a sense of safety and enclosure on the land with planted barriers. They tried bamboo. They tried Sky Pencil Hollies and crepe myrtles. But “gardening here is a war, not a hobby,” as Huff told me; finally, they settled for a wood picket fence and stained it black. Still, no one came. Huff watched her friend grow despondent, she said. “She had a dream. And it wasn’t going to be that dream. And she had to adjust.” The “women-only” concept occurred to Yerian only after she hosted a women’s power tools skills workshop at The Bird’s Nest. Women traveled from other states and camped out in tents. “We started talking around the fire pit and, I said, ‘What if I did this as an all women’s community?’ And it was unanimous: ‘Oh my gosh, that would be awesome.’”
Then the YouTube mini-doc series “Tiny Home Expedition” posted a 23-minute video about The Bird’s Nest. In it, Yerian gave a tour of the grounds — the storm shelter, the fire pit, Turk — talked about affordability and described The Bird’s Nest as “a community of women empowering women.” In some shots she’s wearing a “Pro Roe 1973” T-shirt. She looked straight at the camera, her hands in her back pockets. “When there’s a bunch of women together, you laugh. You don’t care what you look like. You just. Exist.” Her phone started ringing.
Sherry Moore, who moved to The Bird’s Nest in June 2024, doesn’t want men in the community. “If you’re dating somebody, they have a home, right?” she said. “You go there.”
I had been pondering a question: If so many women share my retirement fantasy, why don’t more people act on it? According to the AARP, more than half of Americans over 50 say they’d be willing to live with a friend. But by 65, more than a quarter of American women live alone; by 75, that number is 43 percent.
So I called the cohousing eminence and architect Kathryn McCamant, who has consulted on more than 50 cohousing communities. Retiring with friends is “almost impossible,” she said. She tried to reframe my fantasy. You don’t want to retire with your existing friends, she said. Over a lifetime, these friendships grow out of sync. Friends get tied down to partners, children, parents, jobs, neighborhoods. They have different levels of financial ability and need.
Far better, McCamant advised, for one or two strong-willed people to articulate a vision, then recruit other like-minded people to join them. That’s a win-win, she pointed out. The old “fabulous friends” retain their cherished status and the new ones suit the current situation.
That’s what happened to Yerian. She has new “instant friends, best friends at 65,” she told me. “I never saw these people before in my life, and now I can’t imagine them not being here every day.”
At The Bird’s Nest, we sat around in the kitchen in our sandals, the mood bawdy and light. Within one hour, we were talking about men. Specifically, we were talking about the group’s stance on men sleeping on the property overnight. This was a women’s community, but did that exclude builders and delivery workers? Sons? Ex-partners? App dates? Yerian had started pondering the question after someone asked it on The Bird’s Nest Facebook page: “Are male friends allowed to stay the night? What happens if someone who is settled there wants to get married?”
Yerian had always regarded “women only” as a guideline rather than a hard-and-fast rule. They don’t hate men, she repeatedly said. Many have beloved sons and grandsons. They just expect men to respect their autonomy, competence and intelligence, Yerian said — by which she means not boss them around, not instruct them in how to use power tools or balance the load in a truck. People frequently ask Yerian, “How are you going to survive without men?” This rankles her. “There is no ‘you’re doing it wrong’ here,” she wrote on The Bird’s Nest website. “We just try again until we accomplish the task.”
But when she put the sex-and-dating question to the group, she was “shocked,” she said. In the kitchen, she hooted with laughter as she recollected the conversation they’d had the night before, over cards. She is open to the notion of companionship and sex, at least occasionally, and imagined the others would be, too.
But they all said no. No way. No men overnight, ever, for any reason. “If you’re dating somebody, they have a home, right? You go there. If you need to get laid, go,” said Sherry Moore, who moved to The Bird’s Nest from Dallas in June 2024. Group laughter erupted. Huff joined in. “All our houses are on wheels,” she said. If someone wants to live with a man, there are other places to go. She waved at the infinite space beyond their fence.
The laughing petered out. Obviously, there are safety concerns. It would be impossible to vet every man who wanted to stay the night. But also, men change the tone. (That’s what Yerian tells them when they call to inquire about living there.) When men enter a group, women stop talking intimately and about certain things, Huff said.
Like what? I asked.
“That you pee when you sneeze?” Huff responded.
The laughter in the kitchen flared again. They can talk about menopause and childbirth, they said. They can choose not to wear a bra. Moore declared that after a lifetime of relationships, she’s not ruling men out, she’s just not that interested. “I don’t need to date anymore,” she said to the group. “I’m 65 years old and I’ve had all the best sex I’m going to have. It’s not going to get better than that.”
The Candidate Interview
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Women working on mosaics, seen from above.
The women of The Bird’s Nest working on mosaics to use as address numbers for their homes. They do many things together but also value their time alone.
Katrina Wortham is the latest resident of The Bird’s Nest. She arrived after the Fourth of July weekend after being laid off, at 61, from her job of 38 years. In 2020, she was transferred from Memphis to Dallas. Her second husband didn’t move with her, and Wortham said she “read the writing on the wall.” They are now divorced. She had been saving for retirement since she was young and thought, “I’m not willing to share that with anybody at this stage in my life. I’ve worked 38 years for it. It’s mine.”
Wortham was subjected to The Bird’s Nest interview process, which has evolved over time into a hourslong group share. Yerian and her neighbors interview each new candidate for “fit,” assessing them for self-sufficiency and resourcefulness. As a community, they are interdependent, but each member stands on her own. “I can’t take in desperate people,” Yerian told me. “That means that I’ve got to fill some kind of niche for them that I’m not willing to.”
As Wortham was speaking to Yerian in the kitchen, she was overwhelmed to see all the other women emerging from their tiny homes, en masse, with their dogs, to join them. Number two unofficial rule at The Bird’s Nest: You must like dogs.
Wortham told the group how alone she had been in Dallas. “I lived in that apartment for five years, and probably only met a neighbor the last year and a half,” she told me by phone. So she was more than ready for “the camaraderie” of The Bird’s Nest, she said. She has put a deposit on a deluxe tiny home (ten feet wide, with ample custom built-ins for her crafting supplies), which will cost her $150,000, and sees it as a chance finally to get what exactly she wants in life: a brand-new, mortgage-free “forever home” that won’t need constant maintenance and cleaning. When she told her brother about the interview experience, he warned her, “Watch out, it could be a cult.”
These neighbors can be chatty, and Wortham is accustomed to her solitude. So she was relieved to learn about unofficial rule number three. “If you’re in your house, they leave you alone. But if you are outside, you are fair game,” she reiterated. “And it’s turned out that way so far.”
Conflict Over Cats
When Trish Earixson suggested to her wife, Kim, that they move to The Bird’s Nest from a historic town in northern Illinois, Kim said, “you’re flipping crazy.” The heat, the isolation — it all takes getting used to, as do the interpersonal dynamics.
The electric front gate is a source of perpetual tension. For safety reasons, Yerian is “a stickler” about keeping it closed, as she put it, but each of the other residents can open it with her own clicker. When through miscommunication strangers find their way onto the property, or when the dogs are at risk of escaping, Yerian can “come unglued,” as Huff said, and sensitive members of the village can feel her frustration.
Recycling is a sore point — “nobody wants to recycle,” Yerian told me — as are the four resident cats. They must stay indoors, another unofficial rule of The Bird’s Nest. Otherwise, they use people’s gardens as a litter box. But as much as Yerian reminds certain cat owners of this, the cats still prowl, and other residents object — primarily Huff, the main gardener. In the past, she has confronted the offending owner, even threatening to take action against the cat.
As Huff explained it in the kitchen, this is what “no drama” means: no whisper campaigns, no sulking or stewing. A resident with an interpersonal problem has two choices: tolerate it or address it. “If I go to somebody and say, ‘We need to work something out so I’m not upset about it,’ then we will work something out. Everybody here would at least attempt to make me happy, like I would do for them, ” she said. The cat-owner bought a screened-in porch for her cats — a catio — and Huff was grateful for her consideration.
In the kitchen, Yerian looks around at what she’s built with something like joy and bewilderment. The women have prepared a medley of summer salads and homemade zucchini bread for lunch, and we are sitting with paper plates in our laps. “You’ve unintentionally created an intentional community,” said Kim Earixson to Yerian.
In conversations after my visit, Yerian described the burden she feels. These women have moved from all over the country to settle here, and she feels responsible for their happiness.
Huff and Yerian frequently discuss Yerian’s role. Is she a landlord, charging $450 a month for a concrete pad, water and septic? Or is she more of a counselor, a guide — “a hostess,” as Huff would say. Yerian hears the logic of Huff’s position: the tenants are paying for their spot and utilities, not the sense of belonging. But it’s the belonging that matters to Yerian. So she makes the rounds every day, tending to everyone — to Wickham, who’s more solitary, and Wortham, who’s new. She surveys the crowd: Who wants to go to berry picking, to Walmart, to IHOP? Who would enjoy an aboveground pool? Where will they build the new chicken coop?
Yerian sat with one leg tucked under her, her tattooed fingers around a water bottle that said “Love Not War.” “Nothing against any of you guys,” she said, contemplatively, “but sometimes I think, now that it’s all kind of come together, OK, now what?”
She continued. “Am I going to do this forever? Is this what I’ve got?”
In chorus the women answered, “It better be.” And: “Yes.”
To Snow:
It sounds fascinating. I like the sense of community, but I am really really glad I own my own home (NOT TINY) and don’t have to answer to anyone.
I have had the rug pulled out from under me too many times to be able to fully trust anyone.
I didn’t have HBO, and didn’t want to watch it anyway. I had nothing in common with them, either. I was an Evangelical back then. 🙂
To Serial Limerent:
What caused you to change?
Seeing Evangelicals go nuts over things like Harry Potter. Learning that Pat Robertson had been lying about many things. Doing a deep-dive into theology. Realizing that I just couldn’t accept the concept of most people ending up in an eternal Hell just because of their religion. There was also a Calvinist takeover of my church, which happened a lot in the 00s, and Calvinism was directly opposed to how I’d been raised. Lots of things that are way too much for a forum post….
Passing Through
Stanley Kunitz
—on my seventy-ninth birthday
Nobody in the widow’s household
ever celebrated anniversaries.
In the secrecy of my room
I would not admit I cared
that my friends were given parties.
Before I left town for school
my birthday went up in smoke
in a fire at City Hall that gutted
the Department of Vital Statistics.
If it weren’t for a census report
of a five-year-old White Male
sharing my mother’s address
at the Green Street tenement in Worcester
I’d have no documentary proof
that I exist. You are the first,
my dear, to bully me
into these festive occasions.
Sometimes, you say, I wear
an abstracted look that drives you
up the wall, as though it signified
distress or disaffection.
Don’t take it so to heart.
Maybe I enjoy not-being as much
as being who I am. Maybe
it’s time for me to practice
growing old. The way I look
at it, I’m passing through a phase:
gradually I’m changing to a word.
Whatever you choose to claim
of me is always yours;
nothing is truly mine
except my name. I only
borrowed this dust.
Meeting Ourselves
Vachel Lindsay
We met ourselves as we came back
As we hiked the trail from the north.
Our foot-prints mixed in the rainy path
Coming back and going forth.
The prints of my comrade’s hob-nailed shoes
And my tramp shoes mixed in the rain.
We had climbed for days and days to the North
And this was the sum of our gain:
We met ourselves as we came back,
And were happy in mist and rain.
Our old souls and our new souls
Met to salute and explain—
That a day shall be as a thousand years,
And a thousand years as a day.
The powers of a thousand dreaming skies
As we shouted along the trail of surprise
Were gathered in our play:
The purple skies of the South and the North,
The crimson skies of the South and the North,
Of tomorrow and yesterday.
I had an unsettling experience with LO last night. A different neighbor had texted me to tell me that he had hit a dog and was devastated. I tried to comfort him the best I could.
Then LO starts telling me a similar story about a dog being hit. His story had similarities, but was somewhat different from my friend’s story. I told him, this sounds like my friend. I asked him what kind of car the person was driving.
He blew up at me. I can’t even remember what he said, because I sort of go into shock, but the gist of it was, let me tell it at my own pace and don’t interrupt. Which is a reasonable request, but the level of rage is not.
He said a silver truck hit the dog and my friend drives a blue car. It turns out it was the same incident, because LO saw the blue car, which was behind the silver truck. My friend insisted that HE hit the dog.
So LO calls another friend of mine across the street, a lady I have known for years, because she saw the incident. He asked her about her recollections, and we both listened, trying to figure it out.
What struck me was the sweet, conciliatory tone of voice he used with her, as contrasted with the irritable tone he uses with me. It hit me like a ton of bricks.
The conclusion we reached was that BOTH cars hit the dog, but only the blue car stopped. The silver truck sped off, and the neighbor across the street actually chased it on foot.
To make matters worse, the dog later died.
The instructive thing here is the contrast between the way LO speaks to me and the way he speaks to his neighbor directly across the street.
It took my breath away.
Sorry, Norma. Did this happen at your weekly Thursday night event? The one you must attend every week?
You have said that encounters like this help you find more resolve to leave your LO alone, or to stop approaching him. I hope that this helps you in that way.
You don’t get any “stature” from interacting with someone who treats you like this, no matter how he looks or how rich or renowned he may be.
To Sapiens:
Yes, it was my regular Thursday night activity. LO’s tone of voice really sickened me. I was anxious to find out what kind of car it was so that I would know if it was the same incident. His anger was out of proportion to my interrupting him.
It’s definitely another nail that LO is hammering into his own coffin. Which is a good thing in the long run.
Wow. Yeah, especially when you were just trying to figure out what happened. Feels personal. 🙁
Hopefully his irritability will continue to help me to find him less and less attractive.
I found out that, when LO bought his current, extremely weird house, it was on the market for 14 months. He says he can’t move until this one sells.
So we may be looking at a much longer time frame than I had anticipated. Perhaps his sharp tongue will finish the job before he eventually moves.
Certain people tend to figure us out. How we either accept or disagree with their behavior or condescending attitude becomes their go-to in how they treat us. They figure out early on our moods, reactions and general overall of who we are as persons and how we will interact with them based on their attitudes. Whether good or bad. If we’re smitten with them, we will probably give them a pass quite often because we want them to like us.
Unfortunately for you, your LO has figured out you’re going to be non-confrontational about his behavior. Therefore he feels like its ok to walk on and disrespect you. No matter what the situation. This is probably how he’s always been but your limerence over him probably aids in you over-looking that aspect of him.
To MJ:
I am sure this is true. I am a non-confrontational person to begin with.
The limerence makes it worse.
One time I did ask LO why he had such a low opinion of me. He looked embarrassed and said he didn’t have a low opinion of me, he was just snappish because he was under stress.
Or maybe that’s just his personality.
I wonder whether you have thought about talking to him about it? I realise that you hope to use these occasions to strengthen your resolve to lose contact with him, but maybe they actually cause you to lose confidence and make it harder for you to get out of limerence.
I know that we are not supposed to be friends with our LOs, but the fact is you are friends with him, and it would be perfectly reasonable for a friend to explain to another friend that they had upset them. You don’t need to be confrontational or angry about it. You can just explain what you’ve explained here, that you don’t mind him disagreeing with you, but that you were hurt by his tone of voice. Maybe if you felt able to answer back he would become less of a Limerent Object and more of a real person to you?
I have tried this and it blows up in my face. He gets angry(er) and accuses me of trying to make him feel guilty.
Which had never crossed my mind and I was floored. After two occasions of trying this, I just drop it.
It’s a good thought, but I can’t make it work in practice.
First time commenting on here after years to reply to you ND. Seeing the significant difference in how he speaks to you and how he speaks to others is really important. Once I saw that in my situation, it was over. There is no talking it out either – I tried that as well, and it just came back as somehow also my fault like you experienced.
I think it is a narcissistic trait when they find people they can attack. MJ wrote “They figure out early on our moods, reactions and general overall of who we are as persons and how we will interact with them based on their attitudes.” That is pretty close to a description of narcissistic behavior, and this is not at all the same as friendship. Maybe check out Dr. Les Carter’s videos on Covert Narcissists. It is an eye-opener! Here is one “The Stealth Toxicity Of A Covert Narcissist” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FczbvCr4hEw&ab_channel=SurvivingNarcissism . They are the worst LOs IMO.
“We are not friends” is the actual truth, at least for me. No amount of fun, glimmer, and gloriously feeling times changes that. Unfortunately that realization comes with grief and a lot of shame as well. But at least it is more true than the fantasy. I hope this marks more of an end for you also. There may still be a long way to go I’m sorry to say, but there is not really a going back once things become that clear. That’s a good thing.
To Done:
Thank you for your comments and for the link to the video.
Lots of food for thought. I really appreciate your input.
I Have Folded My Sorrows
Bob Kaufman
1925 –1986
I have folded my sorrows into the mantle of summer night,
Assigning each brief storm its allotted space in time,
Quietly pursuing catastrophic histories buried in my eyes.
And yes, the world is not some unplayed Cosmic Game,
And the sun is still ninety-three million miles from me,
And in the imaginary forest, the shingled hippo becomes the gray unicorn.
No, my traffic is not with addled keepers of yesterday’s disasters,
Seekers of manifest disembowelment on shafts of yesterday’s pains.
Blues come dressed like introspective echoes of a journey.
And yes, I have searched the rooms of the moon on cold summer nights.
And yes, I have refought those unfinished encounters.
Still, they remain unfinished.
And yes, I have at times wished myself something different.
The tragedies are sung nightly at the funerals of the poet;
The revisited soul is wrapped in the aura of familiarity.
Vision
Joyce Kilmer
1886 –1918
(for Aline)
Homer, they tell us, was blind and could not see the beautiful faces
Looking up into his own and reflecting the joy of his dream,
Yet did he seem
Gifted with eyes that could follow the gods to their holiest places.
I have no vision of gods, not of Eros with love-arrows laden,
Jupiter thundering death or of Juno his white-breasted queen,
Yet I have seen
All of the joy of the world in the innocent heart of a maiden.