There are many painful aspects to being trapped in limerence.
Once the thrills of euphoria have given way to the lows of person addiction, you have all the negative consequences of cravings, intrusive thoughts, withdrawal pains, and the sense of being trapped in a compulsion you want to escape but don’t know how.
Eventually, with patience and determination, it is possible to get out of this state. However, even once we succeed in freeing ourselves from the mental state of limerence, it isn’t done serving us life lessons.
I recently had an email from a reader who has largely got over their limerent object but is still struggling to move on. Principally because of what they did while under the influence:
Are there exercises or ways to get over the shame and humiliation one feels when reminded of the things they did to get their LO’s attention especially after having been rejected?
It seems an especially mean phenomenon that intrusive thoughts about the LO can transform into intrusive thoughts about the humiliating behaviour we engaged in whilst limerence had dampened our judgement and self-respect.
The clarity of post-limerent thinking is welcome, but not if it comes with a huge dollop of guilt over what we did.
Is there a way to manage this, and recover some emotional harmony?
Guilt, shame and embarrassment
A good starting point is to recognise the difference between the closely aligned feelings of guilt, shame and embarrassment.
A quick summary would be:
- Guilt = I did something bad
- Shame = I am a bad person
- Embarrassment = I did something foolish
Guilt usually comes from doing or saying something that you know is in conflict with your internal moral code. It is typically focused on believing your actions have caused pain to someone else, and that you want to atone for your actions to try and make things right.
Guilt in this sense is useful, because it comes naturally from within, is focused on deeds not identity, and is more like a moral debt than a character flaw. It’s the prick of your own conscience, not an external judgement.
Shame is different.
Shame is the feeling of being a flawed or worthless person. Shame often comes when other people criticise you for your actions, or suggest you should feel guilty over something that you don’t naturally feel guilty about.
Shame is often deep rooted, psychologically, due to childhood programming by over-critical, self-centred or emotionally withholding parents.
Shame is much less useful than guilt. It doesn’t help you identify what behaviours to avoid in the future, learn from mistakes, or help you align your actions to your internal moral compass. It just makes you feel bad about yourself.
Finally, the simplest to deal with is embarrassment.
Embarrassment comes from doing something that opens you to social ridicule rather than something that is morally wrong. It’s more about those hot flushes of cringe, when you fear that people will be laughing at you or think you’re pathetic.
Managing shame and embarrassment
Shame is a problem of self-esteem. It is corrosive and has little value. Shame is difficult to deal with, and can be complicated to even identify, as it can be masked as other emotions, like anger, anxiety or depression.
Really, the solution is to try and understand the origin of why you feel unworthy or inferior. This is probably most usefully done with the help of a therapist or mental health professional who can get to the root of your internalised beliefs and help you make sense of them.
In the short-term, one exercise to try is to analyse the situation as though you were responsible for judging someone else’s conduct. Detach your emotions from the situation and question it dispassionately.
To take the reader’s situation above, you might ask:
- Is it shameful to feel limerent desire for someone else?
- Is it shameful to be rejected by them?
- Is it shameful to try to get their attention in an embarrassing way?
- Is it shameful to continue to pursue them after rejection?
For me, the answers would be
- No
- No
- No, but it is embarrassing.
- It’s inconsiderate, but it’s not shameful (unless you didn’t respect their boundaries)
The key distinction is whether your actions caused harm to anyone other than yourself.
If you just behaved foolishly – like clumsily flirting, or getting drunk and making an exhibition of yourself – then the only thing wounded is your pride. In these cases the best remedy is to just… laugh along at what a fool you were.
Embarrassment is largely a problem of mental framing.
I always remember a line by Mr Bennet in Pride and Prejudice, when I embarrass myself:
For what do we live but to make sport for our neighbours, and laugh at them in our turn?
It helps remind me that everybody embarrasses themselves at some point. It’s just my turn.
Looked at from this perspective, embarrassment just means you’ve provided some free entertainment, and it’s really just a private pang of regret that you should have exercised more emotional continence.
That said, embarrassment can be more complicated if other people are affected.
It can, appropriately, lead to guilt if you caused pain or distress through your actions. Say, by harassing your LO after they made it clear they weren’t interested, or – in perhaps the commonest cause of limerence guilt – making romantic or sexual overtures to LO while in a committed relationship with someone else.
Managing guilt
Limerents do often act in an irresponsible way, for understandable reasons. In the throes of limerence, your self-control is compromised, but that isn’t any justification or mitigation for the harm done.
Guilt in this context is useful, because it correctly signals that you’ve done something at odds with your conscience. It comes with a big old rush of regret when you recover your senses and have to face what you’ve done.
You can’t undo or fix the past. It’s happened. That cold reality can be hard to accept, and regret can turn guilt toxic if it’s not managed well.
There are two big risks with mismanaging guilt.
First, it can transform into shame.
Second, it can get into a futile spiral of endlessly trying to make amends. People can get trapped in a process of seeking relief by repeatedly apologising, or confessing, or revisiting past mistakes.
Instead of finally dispelling their guilt, they just end up re-opening old wounds.
The imagined emotional closure from guilt-purging never comes. You just keep churning the silt.
So, how can you manage guilt effectively?
Well, the most important thing to do is figure out if there is a way to make amends, and the best way to do that is to try and put yourself into the shoes of the person that’s been wronged.
For example: if you feel guilty about coming on too strongly to an LO after they’d rejected you, the best way to make amends would probably be to leave them alone. Another in-person interaction to apologise or seek forgiveness would almost certainly just make them uncomfortable again, making the situation worse. An email or text with a short apology for your conduct might be OK, as long as you leave it at that and don’t take it as an opportunity to try and re-engage.
In the case of guilt about limerent behaviour that hurts someone other than the LO –say a spouse or long-term partner – making amends is about genuine contrition and rebuilding trust. In this case, there are some rules of thumb that can help:
- Let them lead. They are the injured party and so should be able to express how they feel about the situation and if you can do anything to make it better.
- Tell the truth. Now is not the time for reputation management. Being honest is the only hope of regaining trust.
- Share consequential information. Lies of omission can damage trust too. Be sensitive, but share information that you know they would want to know. Your partner should be the best informed person about what happened.
- Don’t try to offload the guilt. It’s not a burden they take on for you, by being a sounding board for all your regrets and anxieties.
- Accept that you’ll probably never feel satisfied. Guilt doesn’t vanish through confession. The best you can hope for is that they feel better, and then you can be relieved that that’s some recompense.
- Use it as an anchor memory for future limerence. Any time you are tempted to behave irresponsibility in the future, remember what guilt feels like and what it costs.
Limerence guilt can be productive if you use it to learn about your vulnerabilities, and to change the way you act in the future.
It’s a rare person that navigates through life without regrets.
Life humbles us, sometimes.
Take it with grace and do what you can to make amends.
Thanks a lot, Doctor 🙂
Maybe others will feel the same way. I feel so sorry and guilty for texting Ex-LO normal things. I am so sorry I bothered Ex-LO’s wife who thought I was competition but I did not even intend to be competition. I don’t know what to do? Maybe I should just avoid Ex-LO and his wife will forget about me…
But first things first.
I’m happily married and wanted to be friends with my manipulative, narcissistic Ex-LO because he acted like a friend. He acted like a friend because we had this deep talks which we both enjoyed. Only people interested in a friendship OR really desperate, mentally troubled people would tell me the things he told me. (Turned out he was the latter, but I didn’t know at the time.)
And I, unknowing or not wanting to see his narcissistic nature, started to treat him like I would treat my casual friends, meaning I asked him for permission to text him on WhatsApp. He was ok with it and answered my texts, his answers were short but one time, he even sent me holiday photos depicting Spain and also a photo of him and his wife. He called me “really an angel” for getting him “these comprehensive information”. (Manipulation and reward, yeah, I know now.) I showed the text to my husband and told him jokingly, “We’re pals now and there’s nothing you can do about it.” “O no, why him”, my husband said, but he accepted it. I have to stress that my husband and me are part of a mixed group of friends who go swimming once a week. It’s no problem for me, my husband or my friends when someone spends time or talks with the opposite sex.
I kept texting Ex-LO, really harmless things like how a favourite singer of mine lost her recording contract or to get well soon when he fell ill or that the company where my husband works was to get divided into two separate divisions and the workers fought it successfully. I sent looong texts, yeah, three days a week, like I would text a female friend. I made no advances to him, I really wanted to be friends. It was obvious that I liked him (texting things like “O no, you’re ill, what are you doing, pal”), but from my perspective, I pushed no boundaries. My best (male) friend also sends me looong texts. I really had no ill intent. The problem is we don’t talk about where boundaries are.
That was the time when he stopped answering but talking on the job about what I had written. It was such a cool thing because I could make my points (which he cuts off when we talk) and I could get more work done because he would not discuss his strange things on the job.
I still thought I did nothing wrong. One time, we had a phone call working remote and he told me that I was texting him too much and his wife wasn’t amused.
I was ashamed and sent him a text for his wife telling her that I would rather die than fancy him, that I was sorry and I would never text him again. He told me that I could text him but not these lengthy texts. He. Never. Told. Me. When I try to negotiate the nature of our contact, he switches the subject STILL TO THIS DAY. It drives me crazy.
His wife collected some seashells and gave it to him in order to gift them to me??? Meaning she forgave me???? I HAVE NO IDEA WHY, HOPEFULLY!
I did not text him for months and then I only texted him a little when a very important thing on the job happened.
Then Ex-LO told me on the job that “My wife does not even let me go dancing alone”. He flirts with everyone.
One day, when I cried at home about the strange and hurtful and narcissistic and freaked out things Ex-LO told me on the job and told my husband I wanted out of this narcissistic nightmare, my husband wanted to save me. He took my phone, revealed himself (“This is Eva’s husband xy”) and texted him to “please leave my wife alone” because Ex-LO should stop hurting me, should stop interfering with everything and should stop minimising others. It’s true. But tell a narcissist you regularly visited on your free will to do all these things! The narcissist let me pay. He didn’t answer and blocked me on WhatsApp still to this day. Then he expected me to crawl before him. He worded it differently, but he let me crawl for forgiveness THREE TIMES on the phone with his wife listening. His wife yelled in anger and the narcissist could not stop laughing in a really psycho way. “I’m sorry.”, I said. “Aha. Say this again.” “I’m sorry.” “Say this again.” “I’m sorry my husband did it, I tricked him into texting him.” “Yes, that’s what you did. Let’s work together.”
I apologised FOR MY HUSBAND AND SAID I TRICKED MY HUSBAND INTO TEXTING HIM because I did not want to endanger our teamwork on the job. The narcissist forgave me (but research shows they do not really forgive but yeah.) WhatsApp stays blocked but he told me he could unblock it when he’s retired and selling his honey to me (his hobby is beekeeping).
I even told my boss about the my-husband-texted-him thing and my boss told me that there would be professionals who could make sense of Ex-LO’s behaviour and his wife would fit him well LOL!!! My boss told me I should just avoid him, saying “Hello”, and “Have a nice day” on the aisle and never enter his office again.
I know it’s not my fault but I am still some kind of sorry for his wife to have even texted this man. I’m even some kind of sorry for the people in my life that I met him and enjoyed talking to him.
Edit: Sadly, my boss wants me to work with the narcissist when needed. I tried to walk away countless times. I defended myself countless times. I am a fighter. He is not stronger than me, but more persistent and much less empathic. The narcissist always draws me back, provoking me, giving me silent treatment, stopping me from getting business information, charming me, switching narratives, sometimes morphing into a bully. It’s hard (and largely not illegal to treat me like this). A narcissist can give a person hell. I’ll push through. I have to. For my husband, for my health, for the child(ren) we would like to raise.
I will find a way to turn my job environment back into how it was before he came along. I won’t give up, I’ll keep going.
I am the Queen of Clumsy Flirting.
Thank you SO much for posting this.
you’re welcome 🙂 Narcissism is a tricky thing. The books and youtube videos of “DoctorRamani” helped me (she’s a psychologist specialising on survivors of narcisstic abuse).
I know who she is. I am also a fan.
Thank you.
Wow, you have had a long and difficult journey to even get to this point. Be well and I wish you the best in getting through this.
thanks 🙂 such a kind answer. Doing my best 🙂 maybe I’ll write a book or something. 3 years to go until he retires.
Thank you for this, Dr L. I’m learning to be kinder to myself now that my Limerent Episode is very gradually receding and I’m less in a panic about the whole thing. Exploring the feelings of guilt, shame and embarrassment and the differences between all of them is very helpful.
Thank you for the useful post, Dr. L. I can relate to a lot of the contents.
I am afraid I have hit another low in my LE, so I wanted to talk about it here.
As many may know, my LE has been going on for some time now, and in the past couple of months, it has been in a steady kind of state. We bump into each other from time to time, and the interactions are mostly warm. I was happy to see that my mental state was much better than before, as I was less anxious and sad about the whole LE.
All this changed with the last meeting. If I compare it to the previous meetings, we talked a lot more, and shared a lot more.
It all came crashing down afterwards, the dopamine crash, I would guess. Since then, I have been feeling low. I have felt low many times in the past, mostly due to perceived cold interactions. All those times, I felt better in some days.
What I do not get is why I feel low, after a great meeting. Thanks for listening, and hope I feel better soon.
Hi ABCD,
Sorry to hear you’ve had a setback.
“What I do not get is why I feel low, after a great meeting”
The higher the high, the harder the fall. It felt great, we want more of it, we can’t get it, we remember all the reasons we shouldn’t get it, feel guilt, ruminate … rinse, repeat.
As more time passed, did you get your hopes up that you’d be able to handle interactions without these lows following them? This disappointment could be adding to it. It’s a hard balance to strike.
This time of year as the light levels drop fast tends to lower my mood – don’t know if that’s true for you too?
Whatever you did before seemed to work to get you in a better place, so tap into that and try to see this as a blip, not a full on tumble.
Thank you for the advice and support, LaR.
“The higher the high, the harder the fall. It felt great, we want more of it, we can’t get it, we remember all the reasons we shouldn’t get it, feel guilt, ruminate … rinse, repeat”.
Yes, this makes sense. In the past, meetings were not this intense, so the drop is proportionate. Since we both have SOs, the guilt does obviously kick in, its one the reasons I try to be very cautious in handling this LE.
I did not think much about how I would be handling interactions with LO. Had a couple of months of NC, so I was in a better state of mind.
For now, I will just ride this out, and hope I feel better soon. Going by past experience, I do end up feeling better after a while.
Hi ABCD,
I’m exploring the why that you can I ask how things are with your SO and you? I began to notice in the very late phase of my LE that my LO was a stress relief for me in my marriage. The LE world is not separated from the rest of our lives.
Hi Hamlet. Thanks for your message. Things with SO are good. We talk a lot and are each other’s best friends. I need to think and figure out why exactly I had this LE, perhaps with the help of an expert.
Hi ABCD,
sorry to hear you are feeling low. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a relapse.
LaRs reasons for the low are very valid, I might add the theory that now that you made your way further out of the LE mess, you are in a phase where it’s a bit schizophrenic. One part of you reacts with the limerent high during interaction , the other part that you schooled to recognize that limerence and this high are futile, reacts with gloom because it feels the futile part immediately and knows already that the high feelings of the limerent part of you are futile and will be over soon. It might be a quicker reaction of high-low than before because you already know that there is no chance these high feelings will hold.
Or do you suppose you schooled yourself so much to force the limerent feelings back, that there‘s some kind of guilt involved, that you don’t allow yourself to enjoy the warm interaction and one part isn’t allowing but the other is sulking; or interaction with her is now tied to low feelings in your brain by reflex? ( I don’t know if I make sense.)
Actually, there could be various differing reasons why you feel low, and only you might listen deep into yourself and know why.
I just don’t think it means you made a step back. I think it’s part of the way.
Probably the best is to accept it and let it pass? You say you already know that you‘ll get out of the low sooner or later, which is good!
I wish you better mood soon! Do something nice for yourself? All the best and hugs.
“Or do you suppose you schooled yourself so much to force the limerent feelings back, that there‘s some kind of guilt involved, that you don’t allow yourself to enjoy the warm interaction?”
Mila,
This that you have asked ABCD resonates a lot with me. The ‘schooling’ we do to ourselves to reduce an LE becomes quite powerful over time.
Now I find at some times I can enjoy warmer interactions with MFF, not over interpret them, and not get a resulting low. But at other times interactions between us bug me. It is like exec brains says ‘I know where this leads if I let it get too warm, so I won’t do it’. Then the resulting semi-coldness bothers me and drags my mood.
I know all this means I am not fully out the woods. But I am encouraged that there are now spells of time (about half the time) where it just feels like a pleasant friendship again, but not more.
I wonder if she even notices the differences in me at these times and wonders why? (Futile rhetorical question not needing answer!)
Hi LaR,
„But at other times interactions between us bug me… Then the resulting semi-coldness bothers me and drags my mood“
yes, this is something peculiar that our specific situation (trying to keep the friendship while trying to get rid of limerence) might bring on.
For me it felt somewhat constipated (if you forgive the expression) or repressed.
I’m not finished with my assessment of this and maybe will never be sure if that was a necessary phase or if I could have handled that differently.
I‘m still not completely free of my negative reflexes, but now I accept them and let them go. Which is much easier for me since I don’t see my XLO often and contact is completely voluntary.
I think time will maybe slowly ease the knots your executive brain tied, once there‘s no limerent danger lurking if they are untied.
„I wonder if she even notices the differences in me at these times and wonders why?“
For me, it was easiest to think that if he wondered and really would like to know, he could always ask, and if he didn’t, so be it.
I know it’s a bit more complicated than that, but it was easier for me to take that stance. And there’s truth in it, too… since our LOs are friends, it’s in their power to start a talk about what’s bothering them, if it bothers them enough.
Mila,
“since our LOs are friends, it’s in their power to start a talk about what’s bothering them, if it bothers them enough.”
You’re right. It would throw me a loop if she ever did though, because it would break all precedents and current sense of calm. If I am having a down spell caused in part by the limerence tail, I tend to try and get ahead of the ball and offer up another (plausible) reason for it before I’m asked.
But generally I think this will be a difference from you to me – even if under only the guise of friendship, your xLO and you have felt compelled to talk it out a few times (though only you would address it directly, while he may act it out more?).
In my case the parameters / expectations of the friendship have only been discussed once ever. If we screen out the limerence and look at it purely as a friendship (all I have ever done *directly* to her), neither person has ever felt the need to discuss what it takes to make it work, enough to actually do it.
Meanwhile to go with your ‘constipated’ analogy, I felt there was this big ‘bomb’ on top of all that that needed to explode but never did. For anyone to ask questions now would bring the bomb back into view.
I think I’ll always want to know was the bomb 1. only visible in my head 2. made visible to her by me, but ignored, 3. planted partly by her as well as me?
It’s a question I have long since known I will not get an answer to. It’s like what DrL says – that it is on the limerent to get comfortable with the uncertainty. I think about it much less now but I still can’t help but wonder sometimes.
Hi LaR,
„even if under only the guise of friendship, your xLO and you have felt compelled to talk it out a few times (though only you would address it directly, while he may act it out more?).“
But that was because I began to realize he was not really being the friend I thought he was, and hadn’t yet grasped that he simply cannot be. I tried to make him aware of my version of close friendship (futile).
I think that was never necessary in your case since you were both ok with the basic friendship-behavior.
With the constipated feeling, I meant that I had these warm feelings for the person that came up and were immediately repressed by exec brain so that a cool stilted thing happened. It felt not right somehow, although exec brain said it was the morally right thing to do and best for all. I don’t think I had the bomb feeling you had.
I can absolutely understand the wanting to know. But since chances are small we‘ll ever find out, why not assume what suits you best. That sounds cynical, but actually there is not only black and white, there are many layers, and many layers to a story between people. If it helps you more to find closure when you think you both were smitten but decided not to act on it, why not, and if it would settle things for you more to think she was always not feeling more than strictly friend-like feelings, then why not that.
And it could very well be that once you are really out of your LE and can look back with undisturbed clear eyes, you might suddenly know. Or it will have completely ceased to be important to you.
Mila,
I wasn’t probably clear but the unexploded bomb feeling related to a spell at the height of the LE – not in the closure phase or aftermath. Now it is more like “isn’t it remarkable that there is this now defused bomb sat quietly in the corner of this room we’re both in, but nobody sees fit to mention it?!” Almost comic now more than distressing.
“… you might suddenly know. Or it will have completely ceased to be important to you”
It’s strange, I have two competing but opposite stories for what I know – and to this day receive conflicting evidence! I hope I can get to the point it ceases to have importance. It has already on some levels. And yet … I am a curious guy who likes to dig and dig for answers – generally. So it is a big ask for me to give up on a question that occupied me for two years. And yet I know I need to give it up – it is just a journey I’m on to get all the way there. To try and find out would be both very selfish and damaging – is what I keep reminding myself.
“ I am a curious guy who likes to dig and dig for answers – generally.”
Great! But to dig answer(s) from one’s LO — a possible, hidden reciprocation from her/him, which is driven by one’s (sub)conscious pair-bond desire, is not authentic (LE-free) curiosity, but validation seeking.
Hi Mila and LaR. Thanks for the support, and for offering very interesting perspectives.
During the recent past, our interactions had a set template, a look here, a greeting there. Its likely that my mind became used to this series of similar interactions, and its response was fairly stable. To be honest, since they were warm, I did feel nice about them, but things seemed more in control.
This last interaction was like 100x warmer, from both sides. My mind has never experienced this level, so probably the response was more intense.
Your theory seems solid though. Perhaps my mind has been conditioned to think that no matter how many warm interactions we have with each other, this cannot to pursued, so that leads to the feelings of sadness.
For now, I am hoping to get to LaR’s level, where a good number our interactions seem more “normal”, and lead to less sadness.
Sorry of this is the wrong place to talk about this. I have lost my wife of 13 years to Limerence (I assume) and I am in absolute shock at what’s happened to me. In February my wife began an affair with a female friend (a pastor at our church no less) which I found out about at the start of May. I’d suspected something, although not seen that coming, and had asked her more and more directly in the weeks leading up to my discovery. She said she loved the LO but loved me as well and would stop the affair. She begged me to let them still be friends. It was a relationship of talking (she told me) often in the company of others, but also sometimes they were together alone. They kissed multiple times and were sexual once that I know of. They discussed leaving their families (We have 4 children under 10 and the LO has 2) but decided that they didn’t want to break up their families. We had 6 weeks together after discovery, which were incredibly intense and my wife couldn’t completely commit to me and was lying to me and still talking to the LO. She said things like “I need to choose what makes me happy for once” and when I asked her what she loved about her she said “I love the way she made me feel, I’m scared I’ll never feel that again”. We went on holiday in that time and my wife looked like a recovering drug addict most of the time. Very highly stimulated and agitated. We almost broke up every day of the holiday, but had mental sex each day. We broke up for a couple of days on getting back from holiday and I forced them to be together then (desperate tactic) which they did for a couple of days, but my wife couldn’t go through with it “It is completely over”. She eventually got back together with me, but made sure I knew about all the many things that I had done wrong before, which we had already discussed a lot of times. During August (when she didn’t see the LO) things were getting better and affection was returning. When she started to see the LO each day at work (briefly each day) she quickly went downhill and couldn’t take living with me anymore. I was told, “I love you but am not in love with you”, that it’s “not the same anymore” “I wasn’t happy in the relationship for a long time” and “I have feelings for someone else and I can’t keep lying to myself”.
We broke up in the middle of September (It’s now towards the end of October). In the days before this I’d sent her a video by Following Fenna on Mutual Limerence and she said it made a lot of sense, that she needed time. Not to make any rash decisions. Once the decision was made to seperate she’s gone full steam ahead, saying that she’s buying a house for her and the kids and we will never get back together. I asked if I should move on and she said “When you’re ready” and when asked if we should divorce she said “Okay”. The plan has never seemed to be that the two of them literally live together as a happy family, but that they (as far as I can tell) live separately and have fun together. My wife is 36 and the LO is 43. MY wife is also not rich (low income) but the LO has just recently become wealthy due to inheritance. The LO is also “90%” gay and always has been (although in denial), and my wife is not really gay. For her it’s more about the connection. My wife says that she “won’t get into a relationship with anyone for a long time” and that she isn’t sure if she will be with the LO.
I guess I’m writing to see if anyone can offer me any hope or advice. Should I wait, should I move on? It all seems rather mental to me, but my wife seems quite calm about what she is doing.
Her actions are speaking far louder than her words. If you haven’t found Chumplady.com yet, please do so.
https://www.chumplady.com/science-vindicates-leave-cheater-gain-life/
She’s cheated, she’s cheating, she lied to you, she continues to lie to you and would you be upset if your child was treated this way? Or treated someone else this way?
Find an attorney. Be the sane parent. You are allowed to have standards. Cheaters like to call that being judgmental. Roll with it. You can judge that someone is wasting your precious life and you are better off without them dragging you down.
If you haven’t done so already, please consider therapy for YOU, not marital therapy which is chockfull of people who think her lying and cheating must be your fault and hold you accountable for her lousy actions. Don’t fall for it.
She’s ready to divorce? Great. Find an attorney. Get the most equitable divorce settlement possible before she realizes that wherever she goes, there she is.
Best of luck to you and the kids.
Thanks Lee.
I am considering all options, and can see the logic of this response.
Thanks for the reply.
Oh Johnathan, my heart goes out to you and your kids. You described a painful situation. If you want resources to help you strengthen your marriage, I recommend Marriage Helper. They post videos on YouTube that might interest you. One of the founders of Marriage Helper, Joe Beam was limerent and left his family for a few years. He reconciled and returned to his family. Now they, Joe and his daughter, help other couples. It is possible to overcome infidelity.
Best wishes!
Thank you Lovisa,
I do watch Marriage Helper videos and find them helpful. You’re right, I know there is hope. I’m going to have to get a lot more mentally tough whatever happens. I have to see and speak to my wife multiple times a week for the kids. It’d be easier if I could not see her again for a long time.
@Jonathan.
A little while back, I read a book about two women from my home country (both married to men) who appeared to develop mutual limerence for each other.
Not being good little members of LwL, the women embarked on an affair.
One woman’s marriage ended in divorce. She admitted to herself she was very much a lesbian and not into guys at all. She ended up being sacked from her job (at a Christian school) due to her “lifestyle”. She sued the school to try and get her job back, and wrote a poignant-yet-entertaining book about her experiences.
The second woman was a worship leader at some church and mother to a young child. She went back to her husband and baby after the affair ended. The husband was apparently willing to overlook his wife’s indiscretion.
One night, while the two women were still immersed in the affair, things reached boiling point. (Remember, limerence mimics drug addiction and drug addiction isn’t exactly conducive to model behaviour). Paramedics were called to the house where the two women were staying. A female paramedic surveyed the scene after woman #2 had been removed from the premises and gave woman #1 the following advice: “Lose the pills. Lose the booze. Lose the girlfriend.”
Long story short: the affair probably didn’t play out in the way that either woman imagined. It didn’t really seem to deliver on the promised happiness.
Gotcha hand it to that female paramedic, though, for having the intestinal fortitude just to tell it like it is. I love Australia and I love Australians! 🙂
Thank you Sammy. I appreciate the thoughtful reply.
Hi Jonathan,
„ I guess I’m writing to see if anyone can offer me any hope or advice. Should I wait, should I move on?“
Of course no one can really tell you that from the distance we have and only knowing the story through your post.
But instinctively, I’d say that your wife is in emotional turmoil, in a phase where everything seems upside down, and there’s no use in trying to predict which end of the turmoil she‘ll come out of.
For me it would seem sensible to take her by her word. She says she‘ll never come back, she‘s ok with divorce, you should move on, I would simply take her by her word because there’s no real alternative. If you don’t take her serious and wait around and hope that she’ll come to her senses you might have to wait a long time and maybe waste that time.
I‘d say try to accept her decision and try to do what’s best for your kids and for you. Like staying open for communication about kids but not hanging around for her to come back or see her errors. To accept it and to move on seems for me the only way to save your sanity now. If she‘ll suddenly turn round and change, that’s something you can deal with if it happens, but not hope for it now.
I might have no idea what I’m talking about since I’ve never been in the situation, so please forgive me if it doesn’t make sense to you.
Thanks Mila,
It does make a lot of sense. And it’s the conclusion I’m coming to. Take her at her word and revaluate IF she comes back.
Thanks for your perspective.
Hi Jonathan,
I think we learn best through stories. I think you should see the 1996 movie The Daytrippers as it might give you, the viewer, some insights into what your situation looks like to outsiders. It’s been many many years since I saw it, but Stanley Tucci’s acting in the scene where he is confronted about an affair by his wife is just so perfect on so many levels.
“I love you but am not in love with you”,
Jonathan
My wife once asked me in the middle of my limerence; do you lover her (LO)? I said “yes I care very much for her.” Then my wife asked; “are you in love with her?” To which I told her “no”. At the time, I wasn’t 100% sure that I wasn’t. Now years down the road I realized I was actually telling the truth then, even if I didn’t believe it myself.
The fact that as far as you can tell in your marriage, that your wife has not expressed or shown any bisexual tendencies, but her LO is bisexual makes me think that the sexual conduct between the two is your wife giving the LO what she wants to stay connected to her. To me it sounds like she is living something through her LO that she is not getting elsewhere. For me, my LO made me feel young, wanted and appreciated. For me it was never about sex. While LO was very physically attractive that wasn’t what attracted me to her. She made me feel alive.
As far as moving on yourself, I don’t have much in the way of advice for that. My wife chose to stay with me, despite my attachment to LO. Today, in fact, is our 26 year anniversary. I never really asked my wife, what swayed her to stay, and I don’t plan on putting her on the spot. Her reasons are her own.
But there are still lingering bits of limerence despite that it has been over 3 years since I last saw/spoke to LO. So I guess, if this is considered advice, I would say you might want to consider just how long this attachment your wife has to her LO will last even if you get back together in the same home again as a family. Will your wife move on in her mind even if it seems like she is in reality? As in I have spoken LO’s name in my sleep on more than one occasion. The mind has to move on along with her actions. Just my two cents.
Happy anniversary, Adam.
Thanks for the perspective Adam.
Okay, folks. I have two things I’d like to comment on today:
First of all, someone posted an intriguing comment on Dr L.’s YT video “Love or Limerence?”. Since Dr L. referenced the various forms of love conceptualised by the ancient Greeks, this commentator very intelligently suggested that maybe early-stage romantic love could be classified as eros and limerence could be classified as mania.
Ancient Greek philosophy was aware of a state called “the madness from the gods”. However, I don’t know whether the ancient Greeks directly linked this state to the form of love they understood as mania.
Other questions arise. Human brains are messy. Emotions are nothing if not complex. Where does eros leave off and where does mania begin? Can a person experience both eros AND mania at the same time? Might there be a strong correlation between crystallised limerence and mania?
When Tennov came up with the term limerence, personally I believe what she might have been trying to capture was when early-stage romantic love (eros) turns into love-madness or “the madness from the gods” (mania or eros + mania).
Second item of business: Fenna from YT channel Following Fenna released a video recently called “Partner in Love? Not Your Fault”. In this video, she offers up an insight that I thought was pure gold, absolutely magnificent. It’s so magnificent that I’d like to share it again here.
Fenna thinks it’s a mistake for SOs of people in the throes of limerence to see themselves as rivals to the LO. Fenna thinks indulging in the “comparison game” is misguided, and I completely agree. When a betrayed SO makes comparisons, not only are they harming their own self-esteem, they’re participating in a false and damaging narrative that may just well further feed the person-in-limerence’s delusions. In other words, in Fenna’s view, limerence happens because something is misfiring in the limerent’s brain. Limerence isn’t actually about true competition. SO and LO are absolutely not rivals for the limerent’s affections.
Having said this, it can be pretty darn funny when an SO does buy into the whole dodgy-but-culturally-encouraged rival-comparison narrative. For example, in the song “Trust and Believe”, singer Keysia Cole plays a woman who catches her boyfriend cheating on her with her closest female friend. Here are some choice (and deliciously acerbic) lines she has to say to her straying boyfriend:
You look so foollish
With my best friend
And she ain’t no better than you
She’s a three, I’m a ten
Yeah, Keysia. You and me both, baby girl. We’re both tens. 🙂
@Dr. L,
Speaking of all things embarrassing, I found this comment of yours in the comments section of your joint YT video with Fenna: “They [the highs presumably?] are spectacular highs. The problems come when you can’t bond healthily, the limerence progresses to addiction, but the wanting is so powerful that you don’t care that it’s toxic.”
I don’t mean to give you a hard time, mate, but this is literally one of the most insightful things you’ve ever said or written. And you’ve said it in three sentences or less. Even Marcia would be impressed with that kind of brevity! 🙂
I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again. Why do you hide your most precious pearls in the comments section of your YT videos? Give it to me straight – is it all part of some sinister plot (the kind of plot that only a dreamy and slightly old-fashioned INFJ could dream up) to get people to watch your YT videos in addition to reading your blogs? Do I really have to wade through 40,000 examples of modern gibberish (other people’s, not mine of course!) to obtain a goodie bag full of Bellamy’s choicest gold nuggets? What’s going on, man? 🤣🤣🤣
You need a blog entry dedicated to your best YT comments i.e. the comments you write in the comments section of your videos, not the comments you make in the actual videos themselves. Call it “Aphorisms of the Good Doctor” or something. Just include the cream of the crop, the pick of the bunch. I’m sure your readers with ADHD with thank you. Some of your best stuff seems to be the stuff you say to readers off-the-cuff. I think you play down your expertise sometimes in order to coax people into sharing their authentic views. I’m very proud of you.
Thank you again for all your help. 🙂
One of my favorite lines by DrL:
“There’s nothing so alluring as a damaged soul you’re sure you can fix.” – https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-glimmer-givers/
And damn, was I sure I could.
As a wicked, emoji 🧙 from the East, who would be a “damsel” for me to save? 🤔 An unshaved Frankenstein? 😊
I’d like to HELP men or women save themselves. If able, I’d like to help anyone find a suitable direction for them, but they NEED to walk their own steps.
No one can or wanna be another’s psychological 🦯. Only one’s Internal God (spirit, mind or psychology) is/can be one’s authentic saver.
LE,
“There’s nothing so alluring as a damaged soul you’re sure you can fix.”
That’s for you male limerents. That’s has zero appeal to women. I have literally never heard a woman say, “I want to save a man.”
“A man with a plan is a sexy man.” That’s for the females. 🙂
Marcia,
I saw on one of DrL’s videos that the female equivalent of rescue fantasy is thinking that you can tame a man’s wild, wayward habits (bring them under control) …
[I have a sense you won’t agree 🙂]
LaR,
“I saw on one of DrL’s videos that the female equivalent of rescue fantasy is thinking that you can tame a man’s wild, wayward habits (bring them under control) …”
It’s not so much that you want to control him. That’s how your side interprets things. 🙂 You want him to be there of his own free will.
It’s the fantasy of the man who could have anyone and he picks you. And all other women cease to exist.
https://youtu.be/AM-b8P1yj9w?si=N2OuZjcY_hdwbNvb
In all seriousness, anyone with any experience with domestic abuse, gambling, drug, alcohol addictions involving partners knows the craziness of the relationship.
Marcia,
So it’s a slight change in your ideal from what DrL said – not so much about wanting to tame him (as an end in itself to somehow ‘fix’ him, like rescue fantasy equivalent) … but instead wanting to be the women who causes him – for himself – to want to tame (because no-one else matters now).
LaR,
“but instead wanting to be the women who causes him – for himself – to want to tame (because no-one else matters now).”
Something like that, I guess.
I find the whole rescue fantasy yucky and incredibly unsexy. It’s very arrogant. To think you (universal “you”) have your sh*t together enough to not only manage your own issues/problems but also determine someone else’s. Most people are pretty flawed and have enough trouble getting themselves together. Unless you’ve done … idk … Dalai Lama-level work on yourself.
Ah, I just Googled him up and actor Richard Gere came up, too. They’re friends. Gere is a Buddhist. Gere’s a good example. He exudes a kind of primal, sexual energy. At least in movies. Landing his archetype.
Dr. L,
I watched your latest YT video “Why Desire Fades”. And I have to say … you are the king of the clever segue. Maybe that can be your nickname? “Tom, King of the Clever Segue”? 😜
I feel the cultural conversation around limerence has reached a certain point. And when I say the “cultural conversation around limerence”, I naturally mean the conversation I’ve having with myself on the subject. Culture does of course revolve around me. I am culture. I have ten million people living in my head. 🤣
All kidding aside, you used to be chasing the cultural conversation a little bit. Now you’re leading the cultural conversation. However, you’re only leading the conversation by a tiny bit. You’re not so far off ahead that people have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re exactly where you need to be. Well done!
In case you’re wondering where I picked up such an arcane term as “segue”, oh dang, I don’t know. I think I read it in a Jacqueline Susann novel once. Yes, my life is sad. I spend my days reading Jacqueline Susann novels and writing music criticism of the latest output from Taylor Swift. And when I say Taylor Swift, I mean Sabrina Carpenter. And when I say Sabrina Carpenter, I mean Christina Aguilera. Honestly, all those ladies have blonde hair, and I can’t tell them apart. Makes my imaginary day job (music critic) a living hell. I can remember who Katy Perry is, though. She was smart enough to choose a different hair colour! 😊
Clever segue incoming: want to know who’s white-hot and also super-underrated right now in the world of music? Miley Cyrus. I don’t even like women, but currently I have all the time in the world for Miss Cyrus. She’s in her “bisexual rock chick” era, and I’m loving every minute of it. She has a song out now called “Every Girl You’ve Ever Loved”, which I think deserves to be the Sapphic anthem of the 2020s, if not the Sapphic anthem of the twenty-first century.
Here are some lines:
I turn you on and set your heart on fire
I give you every single colour that there is
In a flame burning with desire…
Tell me the girl isn’t singing about limerence – the limerence she’s hoping to inspire in another woman. And the bitterest irony of all? The woman she’s supposedly smitten with in the song doesn’t return feelings. Miley is singing about how she embodies “every girl” the other woman has ever loved. But embodying “every girl” the other woman has ever loved somehow still isn’t enough. Anguished longing ensues. Limerence limbo. You know the drill. 🤣
The song is also of interest because it features living legend and 90s supermodel, Naomi Campell. Naomi both features on the track itself in a speaking part and appears in the music video. A rare treat for Anglophiles, I should think. 🙂