Hope is a big part of limerence.
Hope that a romantic relationship might be possible.
Hope that they might feel the same way about you.
Hope that you might get to experience the ecstatic union of mutual limerence.
Sadly, while hope springs eternal, it’s also easily clouded by wishful thinking.
Especially by men…
Help needed
Just before we get into the meat of the post, this is a quick call for help from readers of Smitten. The book’s been out for a couple of months now in the UK, but there haven’t been many reviews on Amazon yet.
So, if you have bought a copy, please do leave a review. It will really help increase the visibility and credibility of the work, and I’d really appreciate it.
Many thanks!
There’s a consistent body of research supporting the case that men overestimate women’s sexual interest in them, while women underestimate men’s interest.
There’s lots of arguments as to why this might occur.
One is that all of us tend to project our own mental state onto others and assume that they think the same way. So, men, being more mentally primed for seeking sexual opportunities, will incorrectly assume that women feel the same.
Another is that men need to take every reproductive opportunity that they can, and so evolution would favour them having a “hair trigger” for spotting female interest – a false positive is preferable to a missed mating opportunity, from the perspective of gene propagation.
Others suggest it’s just social conditioning.
Regardless of the “whys”, it is a reproducible phenomenon, and one made even worse by limerence.
If evolution has built in a bias, limerence-brain is a double whammy.
While limerent women might become prone to the same misperception bias as ordinary men, limerent men are in danger of going right off the rails.
Impaired judgement
Limerence is an altered state of mind – and it’s one defined by arousal, reward-seeking and desire. Hardly the best state for a sober assessment of reality.
From the perspective of a limerent, the stakes are astonishingly high. Bliss beckons.
That means that the already weighted perception is loaded even further with exaggerated hope.
The slimmest of evidence is used to make a case.
She smiled at me.
There’s something between us. I can sense it.
Her refusal was so polite it’s obvious she cares about me. I’ll just be patient.
Hopes are so high that limerents become hopeless at reading signs of attraction fairly.
Any positive interaction with the LO will leave them high on life and feeling like something wonderful just happened. It feels like a cosmic connection.
For the LO, the same encounter could just be a case of a friendly sociability.
This disastrous combination of men already being over-sensitive to cues, and being desperate to find any cause for hope, makes them read too much into every interaction.
Motivated misperception
Things can go even further. When the limerence is especially wild, people can border on the delusional. This leads to what might be called motivated misperception.
The idea of failure is so aversive, the limerent can’t bear to acknowledge the reality of disinterest. They instead convince themselves that they just need a better strategy, just need to transform themselves into the LO’s ideal man, just need to crack the code of what they want.
Such determination is impervious to hints, brush-offs, and polite refusals. Anything less than a clear “No, I am not interested” is psychologically finessed into A Chance.
Bad interactions or blunt refusals by the LO are closeted away in the memory, avoided like traumatic punishments.
Happy interactions, in contrast, get revisited again and again as anchor memories from a time of joy. They get taken out and polished like the family silver whenever hope is fading.
This can become a bit toxic.
Despite being one-sided and unasked for, the limerent feels that they’ve made so much effort in their devotions that they deserve some recognition. They are entitled to consideration. They are owed attention.
They feel like they’ve been played for a fool, when in fact, they’ve been playing the fool.
That leads to resentment and ill-feeling all round.
So how can you tell?
For all the limerence-addled readers out there, who do not want to be a fool or a pest, but also don’t want to give up on hope, what’s the best way forward?
Well, like so much in limerence, you have to make decisions in the moments of clarity that occasionally break through the emotional storms.
You need to find objective ways to assess interest from your LO, and then be decisive one way or the other.
Declare yourself, or accept disinterest with grace.
Because us menfolk need the help more, statistically speaking, here is a checklist of signs that a woman may be interested in you:
- She actively seeks contact with you
- She is engaged and enthusiastic in conversation
- She is interested in your personal life
- She holds eye contact
- She “mirrors” your body language
- She shows signs of arousal: blushing, stammering, clumsiness, rapid breathing
- She laughs at your jokes (even the bad ones)
- She flirts
- She plays with her hair
- She wets her lips
- She touches you spontaneously
- She is watchful when you are interacting with other women
Obviously none of these signs are foolproof, and none of them are enough evidence, individually. The list is most useful for noting if any of those signs are clearly missing (especially the first three). If so, then… she’s definitely not limerent and probably not interested.
On the flip side, here are some clues that you need to pull your neck in and stop being a pest:
- She carries on with other tasks while you are talking
- She avoids eye contact
- She smiles politely but with no warmth
- She moves back if you get closer
- She leaves long silences, or uses conversation breakers: “Anyway”, “Oh well”, “OK then”
- She is reluctant to talk about personal matters
- She chooses not to sit next to you in group settings
- She has “closed” body language when you interact (crossed arms and legs, leaning back or away, impatient fidgeting, slumped posture)
Again, none of this is definitive, but it’s a pretty clear sign that they are not “lighting up” when you are near. Which is what you would hope for.
As with all generalisations and rules of thumb, there are going to be exceptions. Neurodivergent folks will be different. Naturally friendly women will give false positives. Naturally shy women will seem guarded. Some women will use these signs deliberately to test how you respond, so that they can assess whether you might make a promising “back up mate“.
The only universal method of finding out how someone feels about you is to ask directly.
But having some benchmarks that you can use to cut through the limerent and evolutionary biases before you take that decisive step will help you avoid lost causes and unnecessary heartache.
Good luck fellas.
How can you tell? I wish I knew. Looking at your suggestions, I think that for me, ‘Declare yourself’ has the best chance of finding out if she’s interested, but it’s tricky in an office environment. And I’m like, Do I dare?
DaveC,
“I think that for me, ‘Declare yourself’ has the best chance of finding out if she’s interested, but it’s tricky in an office environment. And I’m like, Do I dare?”
Do you know for certain your LO is available? If so (and I don’t know your company culture) … I’d ask her out for a drink. We’ve talked about this topic on this site before. Anything less than a yes and then showing up to meet you in a reasonable time frame (not canceling/rescheduling several times, for example) is a no. A “Maybe, I’ll let you know” is a no, for example. I’m not trying to be harsh, but someone who wants to go will say yes and show up.
The longer you wait to ask, the more you ruminate. Personally, I think the only definitive way to know is to ask or make some kind of move.
Yeah, just ask someone to drinks or lunch or coffee or whatever. It’s a low-key way to find out if they’re interested. I remember when I was still working, coworkers did things like that without it having to mean anything, so it’s non-threatening. You can see how things go, if there’s any chemistry. Much better than confessing your undying love or touches—Those are the things that would probably end up in a report to HR. 😉
Thanks Marcia and SL, good advice!
“Much better than confessing your undying love or touches” ok, I’ve got the message – I’ll have a good think about it. . .
I think a good indicator of whether a specific action or communication with a female co-worker is good or bad is what would you think if you saw it between another man and woman in the workplace?
LO was more than 10 years younger than me. She was also single. I am married. Even real altruistic actions or words (not for limerent reward) could be perceived differently by others. It was the strongest motivation for me reeling it in with her as much as I did. If I wanted to ruin my reputation, that’s my choice. But I couldn’t ruin hers in the process. So, for the most part I did the right thing.
Well, we’re assuming here, Sir Adam, that they’re both single. I agree with Serial. Asking someone out to lunch is pretty innocuous. No one’s is going to be hauled into HR for that. No one’s reputation is going to be harmed. It’s just lunch. If she says yes, Dave C can afterward take it from there and ask her on a proper date that would take place away from work. If she says no to lunch or is vague and hemming and hawing, I’d let things alone. It’s a good way to test the waters.
Dame Marcia, I agree there are some workplaces that are a lot more relaxed about romantic relationships between co-workers. I’ve seen some have success over the years when both parties are available. I’ve also seen some destroy another’s work reputation for something that happened outside of work when in a romantic relationship with a co-worker. I ruined a co-worker/friendship over romance, twice, in my 20’s. They can be a volatile thing to handle even if they are both single.
Sir Adam,
“Dame Marcia, I agree there are some workplaces that are a lot more relaxed about romantic relationships between co-workers. ”
There’s a bit leap from lunch to romantic relationship. Let’s just start with lunch. Then … date 1, date 2. Limerents are so serious. 🙂
“I’ve seen some have success over the years when both parties are available. I’ve also seen some destroy another’s work reputation for something that happened outside of work when in a romantic relationship with a co-worker. I ruined a co-worker/friendship over romance, twice, in my 20’s. They can be a volatile thing to handle even if they are both single.”
Well, yes, very true. If things go badly, it could make working together uncomfortable. I don’t know what kind of industry Dave C is in. Could be one with a lot of jobs available in his town if he needed to leave. Or maybe it’s not. Idk. Or I don’t know how long he’s been at the company. Maybe he has a lot of benefits/time off banked up and he doesn’t want to start all over again with a new job.
Did you regret ruining those work friendships? I mean … were they good friends? Women you were already hanging out with outside of work? So
you missed the friendship? Or was it the other scenario … it was uncomfortable to work with them after you stopped dating?
Also, I don’t know how much of Dave C’s work day is spent with his LO. Maybe he’s in another department … ?
But it is an LO. It’s not a garden-variety attraction. If it were me and I was getting some indicators of interest … I’d probably go for it.
“Did you regret ruining those work friendships? I mean … were they good friends? Women you were already hanging out with outside of work? So you missed the friendship? ”
Dame Marcia,
One was an already existing friendship outside of work. She worked with me, and I also knew her boyfriend before he was that from outside of work. We were drinking buddies. While we were all able to joke about me crushing on her I had way more feelings for her than just a crush. And one evening in his absence, outside of work, I told it was much more than just a crush I felt for her. And she said, while it was always funny that I would sing “Jessie’s Girl” whenever her boyfriend (named Jessie, my drinking buddy) would come visit her, she just saw me as a friend and co-worker. So, I blew it. We still got along fairly well. We didn’t, thankfully, work hand in hand together all the time. But there was, still those awkward feelings that I couldn’t push down and her probably knowing it.
The other wasn’t so much a loss of friendship as it was a wake-up call. This woman I only worked with. And when I asked her out on a date she said yes. We went on several dates together before I found out she was going out with me for the novelty of an interracial relationship. While I still tried to make it work, because I did have genuine care and attraction to her, but it was clear that was all it was to her, and I moved on. Thankfully she was only there for a few months on the job so I kinda dogged that. But she clearly turned me sour to dating and never did again until I met my wife online.
I was determined that the only games I was gonna play with anyone was on my Playstation or N64.
Sir Adam,
“And one evening in his absence, outside of work, I told it was much more than just a crush I felt for her. And she said, while it was always funny that I would sing “Jessie’s Girl” whenever her boyfriend (named Jessie, my drinking buddy) would come visit her, she just saw me as a friend and co-worker. So, I blew it. We still got along fairly well. We didn’t, thankfully, work hand in hand together all the time. But there was, still those awkward feelings that I couldn’t push down and her probably knowing it.”
I’m not sure how this is a story about horrible work situations after a romance. 🙂 And I’m not not sure how you blew it. You were able to all stay friends. Some guys might not have talked to you after you disclosed feelings to their girlfriend, but it sounds like that wasn’t an issue.
“And when I asked her out on a date she said yes. We went on several dates together before I found out she was going out with me for the novelty of an interracial relationship. While I still tried to make it work, because I did have genuine care and attraction to her, but it was clear that was all it was to her, and I moved on. Thankfully she was only there for a few months on the job so I kinda dogged that. But she clearly turned me sour to dating and never did again until I met my wife online.”
Again, this wasn’t really that bad in terms of dating a co-worker. But I can see why it turned you sour on dating. I’m pretty much there myself. 🙂 It feels like a very tacky game of musical chairs.
Who told you she was dating you for the novelty? Another co-worker? If so, she should have kept that to herself.
“Some guys might not have talked to you after you disclosed feelings to their girlfriend, but it sounds like that wasn’t an issue.”
Dame Marcia
That triangle relationship with the two of them was probably the most toxic I have had and certainly what awakened the savior complex in me. He was a bad influence for me, and borderline abusive to her when he drank. So, I would always pull him away from her when he’d get that way. “Dude let’s go get f’ed up and have some fun.” Anything to get him away from her. Even if it meant life risking distractions to keep him away from her. $hit straight out of a soap opera. Her name was Heather. The first woman whose name was “Miss” Heather. I think I might have actually been in love for the first time Marcia.
“Who told you she was dating you for the novelty? Another co-worker? If so, she should have kept that to herself.”
It was someone we mutually knew. I confided that I was getting feelings for her outside of open attraction to this person and she said “Adam you do know she’s just with you because she wants to know what it is like to date a white guy.”
These two incidents were both inside of three years. Back to my Playstation. It never hurts me.
Monsieur Adam,
“That triangle relationship with the two of them was probably the most toxic I have had and certainly what awakened the savior complex in me. He was a bad influence for me, and borderline abusive to her when he drank. So, I would always pull him away from her when he’d get that way. “Dude let’s go get f’ed up and have some fun.” Anything to get him away from her. Even if it meant life risking distractions to keep him away from her. $hit straight out of a soap opera. Her name was Heather. The first woman whose name was “Miss” Heather. I think I might have actually been in love for the first time Marcia.”
Given all of that, I’m surprised you disclosed to her. Weren’t you afraid he’d get abusive with you?
“It was someone we mutually knew. I confided that I was getting feelings for her outside of open attraction to this person and she said “Adam you do know she’s just with you because she wants to know what it is like to date a white guy.”
So let me ask you this … what does it mean (to you) to “get feelings” versus an “open attraction”? What’s the difference? And what is an “open attraction”?
“These two incidents were both inside of three years. Back to my Playstation. It never hurts me.”
I feel the same way about rom coms. 🙂
“Weren’t you afraid he’d get abusive with you?”
It was a concern, yes. But unlike LO something could have come out of that confession to her. I was available and so was she, if she wanted to be. Besides that, the guy probably wouldn’t have thrown hands too much. She was just an easy target. Just a bad situation all around for all of us really.
“So let me ask you this … what does it mean (to you) to “get feelings” versus an “open attraction”? What’s the difference? And what is an “open attraction”?”
For me it was thinking of our future, if she was indeed the one. Making plans for future dates, meeting her parents, her meeting my parents (as afraid as I was to), etc. The feeling was solid and grounded. Not fleeting and obsessive like with limerence. I had a lot of hope for us together in the future. It was the first (at least I thought) healthy romantic relationship I had.
Open attraction to me is basically just sexual attraction. She was a very beautiful woman, despite her self-depreciating jokes about her vitiligo. She was a tall one too. Taller than me and I’m 5′ 11″. Totally hot. I was just waiting for the day when SHE would throw me down on the bed. 🙂
Adam,
” I was available and so was she, if she wanted to be.”
I’m not following you. I thought they were together.
“For me it was thinking of our future, if she was indeed the one. Making plans for future dates, meeting her parents, her meeting my parents (as afraid as I was to), etc. The feeling was solid and grounded. Not fleeting and obsessive like with limerence.”
Do you feel limerence is fleeting? I was limerent for my last LO for years and it took a couple of years to get over it after I went NC.
“Open attraction to me is basically just sexual attraction. ”
But you felt more than that for her, right?
“I was just waiting for the day when SHE would throw me down on the bed. 🙂”
Lol. Giddy up! 🙂
Miss Marcia
“I’m not following you. I thought they were together.”
Yes but, armchair psychiatrist here, from the things she told me she didn’t have very many healthy relationships with men. Much like LO she was a very beautiful woman, and I think a lot of men just saw that. I think if she had a safe exit she would have taken it. Maybe not necessarily with me, but some other man eventually. I don’t think she knew how a man should treat a woman. But then a lot of us men prove the statement.
“Do you feel limerence is fleeting?”
The bliss of limerence is fleeting, would probably been a better way to say it. Like any addiction it is only as high as the addicting thing is available.
“But you felt more than that for her, right?”
Very much so. Her attractiveness is what caught my eye. When I got to know more about her and her past is when the feelings started to form. I have a habit of finding damaged women, be it consciously or subconsciously, I haven’t figured out.
She was amazingly funny woman with a very, boisterous personality. She took a lot of things in stride. I took her to a really nice Italian restaurant on our first date, and everyone was looking at us. She mentioned it. “Are they looking at us because you’re a white man with a black woman or because I am a black woman with a white man?” And laughed at what she said. I said, “No darling they don’t care about me, they are noticing how beautiful you are.” I didn’t want her to know how close I was to standing up and yelling “WTF ARE YOU ALL STARING AT?”
Mr. Adam,
“Yes but, armchair psychiatrist here, from the things she told me she didn’t have very many healthy relationships with men.”
Um…. you told your friend’s girlfriend you were into her. Let’s be real here. 🙂
“The bliss of limerence is fleeting, would probably been a better way to say it. Like any addiction it is only as high as the addicting thing is available.”
I guess other posters can comment on it. I’m sure it’s quite wonderful if it’s mutual and both parties are available. Of course, it doesn’t last but I don’t think it’s always a train wreck.
” I have a habit of finding damaged women, be it consciously or subconsciously, I haven’t figured out.”
No comment from the peanut gallery. I don’t quite get that. 🙂
” I didn’t want her to know how close I was to standing up and yelling “WTF ARE YOU ALL STARING AT?””
Did you dress then like you dress now? 🙂 They may well have been looking at you. 🙂
Thanks, Marcia, for the bits aimed my way in your interesting discussion with Adam. To answer the three points about me: the job is computer software, we are both ‘available’, and we aren’t actually working on the same project (luckily). I agree with you that a casual lunch invite is mostly harmless, and I will attempt to work myself up to do it, or something similar. I am wondering if my real problem is that I’m quite enjoying the limerence, so don’t want to risk a negative response just yet.
Dave C,
“I am wondering if my real problem is that I’m quite enjoying the limerence, so don’t want to risk a negative response just yet.”
Then I’m probably the wrong person to talk to. 🙂 I’ve stumbled through tying to push things forward with all my LOs.
Dave,
Look for the Search the Site box on the page and search for “workplace,” “coworker,” and “co-worker.” They will return a lot of hits.
Disclosure for a co-worker is generally considered a bad idea on LwL. It comes with a lot of risk. One LwL poster got into an LE with a client and claimed to have been disbarred. Another disclosed to a coworker and claimed to have had an EEO complaint filed against him and was fired.
He’s just asking her to lunch. It’s a way to test the waters. No one’s going to get hauled into HR for that.
When it comes to limerents in the workplace, I default conservative. We’re drifting back to a kinder, gentler LwL.
If he wasn’t a limerent having lunch with his LO, I’d say go for it, although personally, I never dated anyone I worked with.
I heard the rumors flew when I had lunch with a coworker who I was working on a project with.
He’s an adult with agency so he can do whatever he chooses.
You assess risk by first determining what can happen and then make a guess of what is likely to happen.
Limerents make bad assumptions, do dumb things, and LOs go off-script.
Luck doesn’t last a lifetime unless you die young. (Despair.com)
LE,
“When it comes to limerents in the workplace, I default conservative. ”
I disagree with you. He’s limerent, which is a rare feeling. And they’re both single! How often does that happen?
Lunch is a good way to go. It’s innocuous enough that it shouldn’t cause a workplace issue. But it will still tell him something. If she says no to lunch, there’s no point in pursuing anything more.
If she says yes and it goes well, then it’s … is she saying yes to lunch or yes to more than lunch? But no need to worry about that until he gets to that point.
Dave,
I’d go with Marcia on this one. You’re both single. It’s a sad world we live in if you can’t at least test the waters by asking her to lunch. Try it.
Dame Marcia,
I saw this in your posts with Snow: “WHAT DO LIMERENTS WANT FROM THEIR LO?”.
I’ve tried my best at different times to answer your questions like that the best I can. I am really not here to dodge. Yet I know I’ve never given you an answer that remotely satisfied you. I’ll do you a deal – soon (next week probably), I want to have one more crack at that question with you. If I still don’t make sense, then I’ll throw in the towel and admit I’m no help. But I also think it could be a good blog or video for DrL to tackle that question.
I used to overestimate guys’ interest, in high school and early college. Then I discovered how men acted when they really were interested, and my perceptions changed….But I underestimated current LO’s interest. He kept doing this confusing push-pull, so I started rethinking even the more obvious things he did. I don’t know about all women, but in my case, I didn’t want to be wrong and end up embarrassed or accused of being creepy or anything like that. I’d already been through embarrassing situations in my youth when I thought for sure a guy was into me, and didn’t want to do that again.
Oh this was going so well. Putting me firmly on the right track, explaining why they don’t feel the same way… and then you list a number of signs that “they may be interested” and she exhibits most of them 😂
None of it matters though. I’m 54 with a lovely SO. My much younger LO has recently fallen in love with someone entirely suitable and appears to be really happy.
She’s also *definitely* a limerent sensor. I’m sure of it. She’s always enjoyed the attention I bestow on her and the energy my limerence brings to our ‘friendship’.
Over at Neurosparkle, I thought this brilliant piece absolutely nailed the limerence imbalance and why they may be really into you… just not like THAT.
https://neurosparkle.com/your-lo-likes-your-energy-but-intentionally-isnt-choosing-you-heres-why/
Thanks for sharing this website! I somehow haven’t come across Neurosparkle yet, but it looks like a great resource alongside LwL.
I’m pretty sure DrL & Lucy know each other.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-common-is-limerence/
You’re welcome Chrissy – I think it’s really good 😊
I am a bit late on this one, but thank you Phil for sharing this article. I found it very on point and helpful, especially when Lucy is coming a bit from the female perspective when she writes
“…. on average, men are more able to compartmentalise. They are more likely, on average, to be able to enjoy emotional closeness, intimacy, or connection without it triggering a deeper bond.”
I know every individual is different ( as LwL community of males and females testifies ) but I do think she is overall right on this.
My LO fits this perfectly and the term ‘compartmentalise’ has stayed with me as an explanation to try to answer what my limerent brain is seeking to resolve.
I hope Dr L and Lucy may form some collaboration project in the future. Lucy’s articles do not get many comments which is surprising, as they deserve recognition. maybe she does not want to encourage a bunch of inmates that DrL has nurtured and tolerates here 😂
Song of the Day: “The Shoop Shoop Song (It’s In His Kiss)” – Betty Everett (1963)
https://youtu.be/Tq8h3ct78Yw?feature=shared
Most of what you need to know in life someone has probably written a song about.
This resonates with me. I am a woman who is, unfortunately, prone to the “delulu” (as the kids would say) interpretations that you mostly ascribe to men in this article, in the off the rails sense. What helps keep me sane – and what the more enlightened version of me intuitively knows to be true – is that it doesn’t matter whether LO reciprocates or not. Even if I’m not being completely delusional, even if there’s something from their side too, it ultimately doesn’t matter because we can’t ever be together. And why would I spend so much precious time and energy on something that can’t ever come to fruition?
This reframing is something that’s greatly helped me reduce limerent obsessions: even if there is some kind of spark or reciprocation, *it doesn’t matter*. So let it go.
When it comes to limerents in the workplace, I default conservative. We’re drifting back to a kinder, gentler LwL.
If he wasn’t a limerent having lunch with his LO, I’d say go for it, although personally, I never dated anyone I worked with.
I heard the rumors flew when I had lunch with a coworker who I was working on a project with.
He’s an adult with agency so he can do whatever he chooses.
You assess risk by first determining what can happen and then make a guess of what is likely to happen.
Limerents make bad assumptions, do dumb things, and LOs go off-script.
Luck doesn’t last a lifetime unless you die young. (Despair.com)
Sorry, double post.
In some ways, this is exactly what I needed. It has been nearly three months since I last saw my LO. I keep telling myself she would at least come out if there was any interest, but there are legitimate reasons why we don’t see her very often, and they have nothing to do with me. I have really overshared in recent weeks to several people about my feelings for her and have let people know just how bad my marital situation is. She has to know by now. I’ve been telling myself I need to focus on recovery and getting over her. I worry that she may be avoiding me, but I’m not sure.
On the other hand, I still haven’t found a way out of my marriage, and she does have solid morals. When I look at the checklist above, it does seem like there was/is some interest on her part, but she isn’t going to lead on a married man (she even told me so). We get along really well. We sit or stand with each other and gravitate towards one another when we meet. She laughs at my jokes. She asks me questions about myself. Conversations generally flow nicely between us. She looks over at me and listens in to what I’m saying even when we aren’t right next to one another. She says playful and funny things to me. I’ve seen her stick out her bust in front of me (she is rather well endowed). She checks our group chat fairly regularly (even though she doesn’t come out with us that often).
What I really want is to stop the intrusive thoughts and the idea that this woman is the be-all and end-all. I desperately want out of my marriage, but I keep on reminding myself that I don’t want to leave my wife for her (or anyone else for that matter), and that I want to end my marriage because it isn’t working for me. I want my freedom back more than anything, so why do I think so much about getting into a relationship with this woman or even someone else? Shouldn’t I want to be alone for a bit and enjoy my freedom after being in such a bad marriage for so many years? Is it that human instinct to want to pair bond or the fact I haven’t been intimate with a woman in 7-8 years?
I try to tell myself I need to put LO #3 on the back burner. If it’s meant to be, it’s meant to be, but not unless and until my wife go our separate ways and I’ve been in my own place for at least a few months. I am starting to think LO #3 isn’t going to be interested, but do I really know that? Is it just my marital situation that scares her off? Would self-improvement (weight loss, getting really fit and sorting out my finances) make me more attractive to her and to other women? I know deep down there are other women who are interested in me. I have had true and unequivocal validation from other women in recent months. I know I could meet SOMEONE, and I know the chances are it isn’t going to be LO #3, but it feels like I’ve become really picky recently; I don’t think I would want to settle for someone who isn’t really attractive to me and doesn’t check off at least most of the boxes. Is this wrong? Am I being shallow? Is it too early to even be thinking of all of this?
“I desperately want out of my marriage, but I keep on reminding myself that I don’t want to leave my wife for her (or anyone else for that matter), and that I want to end my marriage because it isn’t working for me.”
I’ve probably asked you this before, but in case not, I’ll ask anyway.. How long do you want to keep living like this? For the amount of time you have been coming to the forum, it seems your marriage has hardly been on the improvement route. You seem to know it’s not working out. It’s like you’re in some kind of maze, walking into walls all the time, with some vague hope these LO scenarios are all going to somehow work in your favor, while still being married. If these are good, quality Women you are seeking and are worthy of keeping around long term, of course they will probably not want to have much too much to do with you as long as you are still married. If they are not high quality, then you could perhaps get one to want to fool around with you, but is that what you really want? Being picky or not, you’re a man and a sexual being. There’s nothing wrong with getting what you want. You just have to take the initiative to start the divorce process. I don’t know why you would want to keep living like this. I know divorce is not fun or easy but in your case, it now seems necessary. Or is there still one other thing holding you back again?
I feel like you should be so close to just getting out of that wreck of a marriage and after 7 to 8 years of it, yes you should want some intimacy. Unless something changes in your marriage and you somehow feel something again for your Wife, intrusive thoughts of what could be with somebody else are probably always going to surface. This is natural.
“I am starting to think LO #3 isn’t going to be interested, but do I really know that? Is it just my marital situation that scares her off? Would self-improvement (weight loss, getting really fit and sorting out my finances) make me more attractive to her and to other women?”
I can’t answer these questions for anybody. I don’t know that Woman or the type of man she will date. You have to ask her in plain English and see how she responds. Of course self improvement is always a good thing and yes it would be very helpful, should you end up on the divorce route and back on the market. You never get a second chance to make a first impression.
Sorry for the late reply.
I really don’t want to live like this much longer at all, but people on here keep saying things like, “Why don’t you just divorce her already?”, “Why don’t you just leave?”, “You don’t need her consent for separation and divorce,” “Maybe you can have an in-house separation,” or “Surely, you can find another place to live?”
Trust me when I say this is much, much more complicated than it seems. There are financial, logistical, legal and emotional considerations at play here. I know I don’t need my wife’s consent to separate or divorce. I get that. I have a legal background. The problem is I DO need my wife’s consent to sell the house. Without accessing my share in the equity in the house, I can’t buy another place. I can’t leave and stop paying the mortgage, or we both lose the house (my wife doesn’t earn enough to carry the mortgage and property tax). I can’t get a room for myself, and that doesn’t help my daughter who has begged me to take her out of this toxic, abusive environment with her mother. This is a very expensive area, and a modest house is close to $1 million ($2 million in the city). A one bedroom shithole apartment is $2,500 a month, and a two bedroom is even more than that. We are in debt. We are barely making ends meet as it is. We also have a dog to consider.
I could petition a court to order a sale of the house, but that takes money and court action and is an extremely adversarial act (and must be combined with an action under the Family Law Act). You don’t know my wife. No bloody way I could take legal action against her while living under the same roof. She WOULD damage property. She WOULD be violent. She WOULD destroy my reputation. She WOULD cause a scene in the neighbourhood. She WOULD make it so incredibly difficult for me to work (I work from home most of the time). She WOULD stop paying for the bills she does pay, making me even more desperate financially. She is VERY creative that way.
In-house separations in this jurisdiction have very strict rules for them to apply, and she would have to consent to that, which she would not. We wouldn’t be allowed to share our finances, eat meals together, hold ourselves out as being a couple, sleep in the same bed or even consider each other’s schedules. Because she won’t consider separation or divorce, she would never agree to those conditions, and would be constantly yelling at me, “Don’t be “so fucking anal!”
I can draw up a separation agreement, but she doesn’t have to sign it. She can just tear it up. In this jurisdiction, separation is almost always required for a year before granting a divorce. The only exceptions are adultery and extreme abuse. The problem with adultery is she would destroy me if I fucked someone else. Added to that, the person committing the adultery can’t use their adultery as a way to get a faster divorce, and the paramour has to be named in court documents. I wouldn’t put anyone else through that, and my own morals wouldn’t let me go through with an affair anyway. Because things are at least pleasant and cordial most of the time, and there is no real physical abuse, I am not sure the abuse would rise to the level that would allow for an immediate divorce.
There is literally nowhere else for me to go. The only family I have in this country besides my father (who is in a nursing home) is my brother, and he is mentally ill and physically disabled. He lives in a pigsty of a house and I don’t think he’s showered in 18 months. He keeps on going on about conspiracies and how he wants to die. There is no way I could live in that environment, and there is certainly no way I would take my daughter to live there (I could not leave her with my wife because one or both of them would likely end up dead with the relationship between them being so incredibly toxic). I need to be there to mediate their disputes and keep them from killing each other (the police and child protection authorities have been to our house several times because of their massive fights and violent altercations).
For seven or eight years, my wife have been living in a dead, sexless marriage. We live like roommates, and she doesn’t even feel like my sister. Frankly, she is more like my mother because she has dominated and controlled me and emasculated me for so long. There is no spark. I don’t want the spark back, and I don’t even want to want it back (if that makes any sense). For over four years I’ve been confident I want separation and divorce. I have told her literally hundreds of times clearly and unequivocally that I want out and will never change my mind. Several times, I’ve literally said to her, “I do not, do not, do not want to be married to you. I want a divorce. I want a divorce. I want a divorce, and I will not, will not, will not change my mind on that ever, ever, ever, ever.” I’ve told her it’s obvious she isn’t happy with me either because she expresses extreme displeasure at who I am as a person constantly. I’ve told her that just like she isn’t a fit for me, I’m not a fit for her either.
Still, she keeps up the delusion. She buries her head in the sand and acts like if I don’t mention divorce hourly for weeks on end that I have completely forgotten about it. Still, it’s almost never about loving me and her not bearing to be able to lose me. The first thing she leads with whenever I mention separation and divorce is money and her not being able to afford a nice house on her own. I have made her a financial offer that would allow her to buy a place outright or at most with a very small mortgage. It would need to be a smaller, older house in the next town, which is kind of blue collar, but still, she could get a place. But that’s not good enough for her, even though I am offering her more than half of the equity in the house so she would go away (I would obviously make sure she doesn’t get spousal support or any of my pension if I did that though). I know I would need to lower my standards in terms of housing and probably still have a mortgage, but it’s worth it to me. My happiness and sanity is worth so much more than money and keeping up with the Joneses.
I will likely get some inheritance from my father in the not-too-distant future. Friends have suggested to me that I should ensure my wife doesn’t get any of that, but if it helps to make the financial offer better, I would rather increase the offer a bit to make it more attractive to my wife rather than most of it going to lawyers. I do plan on making another offer to her in the coming weeks and really trying to tighten the screws around separation. One female friend (who is very nice) told me I should just be a complete asshole to my wife to get rid of her, and I may do some of that, but it will cause pain for me (and for my daughter as well). I feel like telling her outright that I want to fuck someone and that I have no interest in ever fucking her. She has accused me of affairs, and I wouldn’t do that, but my patience does wear thin. The drive to pair bond is just too strong. Most of all, I want my freedom, but I do want to ultimately be in a nice, stable, healthy relationship with a nice lady. I would love it if it could be my LO. I think she is absolutely fantastic, but I’m not stupid. Chances are it won’t be her, but who knows how things would be between us if I could end my marriage? For now, all I have are my dreams.
Vicarious,
I’m going to be frank with you: You’ve been on here posting the same message for … 2 or 3 years now ? Rip off the band-aid. Pack up as much stuff as you think you need/can fit in your car and go rent a room somewhere in an apartment or a house. Rent a room. Not share an apartment. You’re not splitting half the bills, just paying a set fee per month. Wifi should be included in the price so you can still work from home. And force a sale of the house/petition for divorce asap. I’m assuming you’ll have to contribute to the mortgage/bills until it all goes through, but what your wife does is entirely out of your control. If she goes ballistic, she goes ballistic. Be prepared to get very little out of the divorce financially. Be prepared for all of this to be very difficult. I’m not making light of this in any way. I’m just saying: Be prepared for the worst.
You should not offer her part of the inheritance. You’ll need that to rebuild your life.
(Obviously you need to consult an attorney on all of this. Ask him/her. What happens if you don’t pay the mortgage? Would it kill your credit? Would you have to declare bankruptcy? )
And you don’t need a long, drawn-out process to tell her you’re leaving. You’ve been telling her you want a divorce for what … years?
At this point, it’s: How badly do you want out?
@Marcia, I did mention in my above post that I simply cannot even afford to rent a room, and I’m afraid of leaving my daughter with my wife. However, I understand your point. I need to get out. Things are never going to change, and I’m just going to continue to torture myself with these crushes and limerence — meeting nice women I’m attracted to but constantly being forced to look rather than touch. Hell, my wife doesn’t even want me to go to the gym because she wants me to be doing household chores and projects that never get completed, and I suspect she doesn’t want me to look good for other women. I think about her and clench my fists and grit my teeth with utter hatred and contempt (I’m doing it right now). I don’t really hate her, but sometimes I feel like I do. I’ve been talking about a couple of side hustles the last few years, and I think it’s time to pursue one or more of them so I can get the money to get out of her clutches.
I generally come on here to talk about my limerence, but for some reason people usually focus on my marriage. Still, I know that the limerence is only a symptom rather than the disease itself. If I was in a happy, healthy, stable marriage with romance and intimacy, I doubt I’d be limerent. I wouldn’t be constantly focusing on how life might be better if I was with someone else. I miss my LO right now so badly it hurts. I wish I could see her, but she doesn’t seem to care about me. I have to get that through my head, but I also have to realize there’s a whole world out there. Right now, I am limited to thinking about the single women I know, but there are so many other age-appropriate quality single ladies in my area. I just have to get out of my marriage, let the dust settle a bit, get my own place and get to know them. Only then will my LOs be out of my head — or who knows? Maybe I might have a chance with LO #3. I doubt it, but she has already made it clear in a way that she is holding back on me simply because I’m married.
Vicarious,
Isn’t your daughter in college?
If you work virtually, does it matter where you live? Can you move an hour or two away to a smaller town that has a lower cost of living? (I mean, temporarily until this is all settled.) I’m just throwing out options. Can you stay with a relative for a while?
If you really want out, you’ll do what you have to do to get out.
Also another brutal truth: Nobody acquires more sex appeal as they age. Time is ticking away. I’m your age so I really feel it.
@Marcia, my daughter is in college, but she is a commuter student. She lives at home while she studies locally, so she isn’t in a dorm or anything like that. Any solution would likely have to involve her because things are worse between my wife and her than they are between my wife and me. I could live a little further out, but I do have to come into the office in the city at least some of the time. The best solution for all concerned is if my wife eventually accepts the separation, but if she doesn’t, I will have to put a lot more pressure on her. We have a family vacation coming up, but I’m thinking after that I should get the ball rolling on trying for a separation. I should also try to get my finances in order.
I have also confided in a mutual female friend about my LO. I have told her how much I would love to see her more often, but that I don’t want anything truly inappropriate while I am still married. This friend will try to get her to come out with us and put in a good word for me. I’m not too worried that it gets back to my LO because she has to know how I feel about her by now. I know she shouldn’t be my focus right now, but I am limerent for the woman and it’s hard to stop thinking about her. Focusing just on ending my marriage is easier said than done, but I have put guardrails in place to ensure I don’t go too far with this lady. She has morals and I respect that too.
Vicarious,
It doesn’t sound like you can move farther from town if your daughter is a commuter and drives to school ? Any chance she can get into the dorm or transfer to a school with dorms ?
I’d go see a lawyer and see what your options are. It shouldn’t take more than a basic consultation.
So either you figure a way out or your bide your time until your daughter is done with school. Is that what ? 3 or 4 years ? If you choose that route, I’d make clear to her she needs to get a job once she graduates and be fully self-supporting.
Honestly, I wouldn’t count on your wife accepting things. You haven’t made her sound like the most reasonable person. 🙂 But here’s another suggestion … you stay indefinitely but do your own thing. I have a family member who did that. The last kid went off to college and she and her husband agreed not to divorce but they did their own thing unless it involved a family outing/get together. What I mean is the two of them weren’t having dinner in the evening and doing things together as a couple. I don’t know if they alerted each other about what they were doing/when they were coming home. I know your next question will be whether or not they saw other people outside the marriage. Idk. I didn’t feel comfortable asking.
VL,
I believe Marcia has decent advice there. I was also going to suggest finding a good Attorney who should be helpful in navigating some of this stuff. You definitely have your hands full it sounds like.
I suppose since my divorce was basically effortless on my part and my Ex did all the work, (mainly behind the scenes) I don’t take into account the drama that creeps in others’ situations. You have my sympathy over all that. That has to suck..
I mean about the only thing I didn’t cooperate with in my divorce was signing paperwork, but she got what she wanted anyway without it. So to hell with everything. I quit caring after that.
Of course I’m not condoning cheating while married, but yeah in your case I think you shouldn’t put too much weight on that. I know you want to do right and find a quality partner but man, take care of you too. 7 to 8 years of that and I probably would have considered jumping off a cliff by now. Again my hats off to you for sticking it out with her and of course for your Daughter. But this Wife of yours does so not seem worth sticking it out for. I wish you luck Friend..
Vicarious,
MJ’s advice: “Of course I’m not condoning cheating while married, but yeah in your case I think you shouldn’t put too much weight on that. ”
I kind of agree. You’ve been telling her you want out for a very long time. Years ? If she won’t be cooperative in moving things forward with a divorce so you can settle up financially, I think you should go and do what you want. I don’t mean bringing another woman to the house, but if you want to go out with friends or … whatever … (as long as your daughter doesn’t need anything that night), I think you should do it.
I don’t mean to play power games, but you have more than you realize. You’re the one making most of the money.
I have basically been doing my own thing in many ways. At least I’ve insisted on my own friends and social life in recent years. Getting out of my marriage will require me to be strong and to go through hell. It will be worth it to come out the other side. I am also going to have to be assertive and determined with her. I think improving my finances through side hustle(s) will be key. That is something even my wife approves of, but I will need to keep some money aside for myself. My life has been on hold for far too long.
A mutual friend posted some gorgeous pictures of my LO today. She looked absolutely radiant and so happy. I would love to have her in my life in a much bigger way. One thing’s for sure though; it likely won’t happen while I’m still living under the same roof as my wife. I also need to slim down and get serious about the gym again before I will really be looking my best and have the confidence to believe I’m worthy of a woman of her calibre. I am not stupid; I know I’m unlikely to ever end up with LO #3, but the way things are right now I will never know that for sure. If it isn’t her, there are so many great women out there. I’m sure I could meet someone who is a good fit for me.
I have been lurking on here for a couple of years, but this latest blog by Dr L. has piqued my interest and finally prompted me to post.
For the past three years I have been limerent for a coworker. I am almost out of it now, thank goodness, thanks to very limited contact. It has died a slow death, a bit like a wonderful, beautiful, glorious sunflower that slowly wilts into the autumn, starved of the light and warmth. The sunflower is just a speck of what it once was, now just a tiny indistinguishable sad little brown stump sinking back into the earth.
Back then, I totally fell for his charms. It happened very suddenly, unexpectedly. The novel feelings were explosive and took me my surprise. I think he must have sensed my energy, as he persistently sought me out, complimented my character, told me I was amazing. He fired personal questions at me, loitered awkwardly around my workspace, and seemed to relish fanning the flames.
But oh, I knew what he was doing and there was no way I was going to show him how I felt.
I thought obsessively about him every second of the day. I loved when he came round to seek me out, and basked in the giddy high for days following each interaction. When we spoke, I always had a massive grin on my face, and I think perhaps it is my smile that gave me away.
But I felt shame in my feelings. There was no way this would ever lead to anything. It was ludicrous, and I knew that.
So, I hid my feelings for him:
I actively avoided him and timed my day around this.
I avoided asking him any personal questions.
I was careful not to flirt (although I’m naturally rubbish at this anyway).
Definitely never attempted to touch him.
I avoided eye contact when passing, to the point he must have thought I was rude.
Whenever he stepped into my personal space, I took a step back.
I never initiated conversation and rarely greeted him first.
I was reluctant to discuss personal matters.
I made sure I didn’t sit next to him in group settings.
Pretty soon, I realised that my passivity was unsuccessful in dimming his interest. Rather, it seemed to have the opposite effect and encouraged him more. Why did he still continue to seek me out, despite my aloofness? Why did he still radiate warmth and kindness, and shower his attention onto me?
On the outside, I tried my best to blank him. Not through wickedness, but because I was trying to guard my feelings.
Inside, however, my soul was burning.
So, I’m an example of one of those people who feel very intensely, but who don’t obviously wear it on their sleeve. On reflection though, maybe I did show it in subtle ways and he picked up on it.
Beautifully written, Sauvignon.
This is how I felt too, at the height of my LE, a year ago.
The sentiments were exact, word for word (if the genders were swapped, that is).
Despite me trying to steer away from her, it only seemed to spur her attention.
I am certain that our respective ex-LO’s sensed the effects they had on us (from our body language, which would have involuntarily betrayed us), and enjoyed the feelings of validation, perhaps even toying a little to see how far they could push boundaries.
It was a roller-coaster of mixed messages.
She would tick most of those positive indicators of interest, albeit conditionally (eg she was coquettish, but not just with me, though it seemed so at the time), and none of the negative boxes.
In my situation, I “enjoyed” an extended period of absolute no contact, and I reached where you are within about 6 months.
I imagine that limited contact would have been like torture, or as you put it, a slow death.
“I am certain that our respective ex-LO’s sensed the effects they had on us (from our body language, which would have involuntarily betrayed us), and enjoyed the feelings of validation, perhaps even toying a little to see how far they could push boundaries.”
Definitely this! Thank you, ghostzoned. Glad I’m not the only one who tries to evade their snares! Our LOs were probably sensors, very skilled at picking up on our vibes. At times, it seemed like he was watching me like a hawk, almost studying me. Other times, he could read my thoughts.
There is no doubt he enjoyed pushing those boundaries, but as he’s married with kids, I knew this was just some form of entertainment for him, a muse.
He had a very powerful effect on me. If I happened to see him grabbing a coffee at the vending machine, I would quickly turn back round and avoid having to interact with him 🤣.
I think lunch/coffee is a good idea. But the end goal is to determine if there really is romantic interest. So, it is best to use the lunch/coffee setting to see if there is something there. I think you have to ask for a clear date, very politely, at that time to really gauge.
It doesn’t have to be a disclosure how crazy you are for that person but just a fairly straight forward tactful indication that you’d like to “test the waters” for a more serious relationship going forward.
At my workplace colleagues go out for lunch/coffee all the time and that really doesn’t mean much as far as a romantic thing goes. That’s why you have to make your intentions fairly clearly known when you get the chance. Or else “just” constant lunch/coffee meetups will leave you in limbo.
The key then is if the answer to escalate to a romantic date is no, then drop it. As someone who as worked and studied in the Human Resources field, there is nothing wrong in asking a co-worker out on a date. However, if the advance has been declined then that should be that.
Harassment has to generally be unwanted and persistent. An initial determination of interest (asking for a clear date) is fine as long as it is understood if the answer is negative then it should not be pursued further.