It’s that time of year when it always feels as though things should be winding down for Christmas, but in fact, Christmas preparations are just being added to the business of everyday life.
The perfect time for a visit to a seasonal coffee shop.
This week I have been mostly reflecting on how much harder video editing is than I expected. Nevertheless, the first proper video is now live on the YouTube channel – and appropriately titled “What is limerence?”
It’s been a good experience going back to the fundamentals. It’s an opportunity to revisit the key concepts of limerence, but with nearly eight years more learning and thinking under my belt. A chance to update old ideas and add more depth, and a new polish.
Right, back to the important business of chit-chat.
New year renewal
The Christmas break is often a turbulent time for those going through a bad bout of limerence. For many people it means forced separation from their limerent object, which can be a good and/or bad thing.
If you are single, it can be a lonely time, and drive home the fact that the LO is not available for comfort and joy.
If you are in a relationship, no contact with the LO can have several possible consequences – the clarity of distance might help weaken the pull of a toxic LO, the pain of withdrawal might cause resentment with the partner, or guilt about the betrayal of missing someone else might make you miserable company.
If you have a family… well, Christmas is all about family and so the contrast between social events and a private limerence habit that you are keeping secret, can be stark. Maintaining a façade is exhausting and deranging.
Emotions are heightened whenever social and cultural pressures work against the hyperactive drive of reward-seeking that is limerence. It can be harder than ever to manage the person addiction.
So the opener for discussions this time around is in fact a shout-out of solidarity to anyone struggling with limerence this holiday season.
It’s a miserable feeling to choke down secret pain when everyone around you is focused on joy and making merry. But you can use that misery as fuel for recovery.
The year is about to renew again, and that can be a perfect moment to begin your own renewal, and escape the limerence trap.
It’s the time of resolutions, and what better purpose than to resolve to escape?
Others have been through it, and come out stronger. You can too.
If you find yourself riven with pain, know that there are people who understand, and who are willing you on to rise, phoenix-like, from the limerence fire, and begin the personal, purposeful transformation that leads to freedom.
It feels great, and it lasts.
I am into 5 weeks of no-contact with my LO after 1,5 years of nursing for him (a happily married man with 3 boys) and being über-limerent from day one. Luckily I didn’t take the road that I was ‘in love and that we were meant to be’ and the nursing job being only two days a week, I was able to manage (reducing eye contact for instance) and act normally whilst being obsessed with him all of the time, in body and mind. But when the practice was bought up and more staff (mostly younger female) were brought in, I didn’t feel I could handle that extra layer of inner torment and resigning felt like an act of self-care. What’s more, I resigned in a way that gave me some power back, but it was abrupt and we never saw each other again. That said, I can see the workplace from my windows and I have indulged in spotting him arriving/leaving (could I see on his face if he misses me?) and looking at my replacement, which at times strengthened my resolve, at times weakened it. But now that the practise is closed for the festive period, I do feel a pang of sadness, not helped by imagining him so happy on his family break, whilst I am left with nothing. Consolation number one: I am not ‘the other woman’, now that would be a very lonely place to be at Xmas! Consolation number two: luckily he doesn’t live in the same town so no risk of bumping into him inadvertently, phew. Yesterday I spotted his car parked at his parents’ (they live at the end of my street) and the impact I felt was intense! I understand it takes about 3 months of NC to fully move on so I am able to reason with myself when I get a bit impatient. There is no denying that NC is the best policy and helps me give more weight to the evidences that he never cared about me, I was just a footnote in his life, whilst he was a huge mountain to me. I feel free, I feel empowered, I feel sad, I feel annoyed for giving so much energy to someone unavailable for so long. How cruel for feelings to be that strong when they are unwarranted! But I also understand why I am prone to this so I am able to have compassion too. Having a real relationship would be a big step for me. Whether that will happen in this lifetime, I am not sure to be honest. In the meantime I have exams to complete and perhaps I will continue in that line of work, perhaps not. In any case, I will have to watch out who I will nurse for. I am determined to be more aware at the onset in the future when I see how hard it is to ‘come off it’. Oh and I have a check-up booked on the 9th of January with.. my LO! I have been rehearsing how to play it in case I do end up going, which you could argue keeps the limerence going. But it has evolved from showing him what he is missing (hooking as it were, will I ever let it rest?) to using my visit to bring closure and draw a line. I will have to be very honest with myself closer the time (check for hidden motives and if I am kidding myself). Not to mention he’s going to look inside my mouth for an added level of weirdness. Watch this space…
French Tart, welcome! And congrats for 5 weeks of NC, from one French dessert to another (ex-poster Sammy is convinced that Trifles is a French tart, but I digress).
I think getting that far is a major achievement and a streak that you won’t want to break. I think I initially came on LwL at that exact same mark. And (with one unnecessary but understandable relapse) I’ve been able to keep NC. I’m not the perfect example but at least I can say that I don’t think about xLO anymore.
Now about that check-up… You know there’s only one thing to do. Cancel it! You’ve come too far to go back down the rabbit hole again. We’re here for you to help you hold NC. As many others here will be happy to testify – there is no such thing as closure, only our limerent wishes. Someone else here might be better at giving examples, I’m just here to help you hold NC!
Hi Trifles, a delayed response for me but today was the day. I did go for it I have to say, but I totally understand and appreciate you urging me not to. So yes, I did go for my dental check-up with my LO and my former boss. Primary factor was a last chance to be seen dentally under the UK National Health System but had I not felt ready inside myself, I would have forfeited that considerable financial advantage. Second factor was a need for closure. I know you said there’s no closure for limerents (I thought long and hard about that) but I was also after professional closure. I may debrief more in depth later on but let me just say for now:
1/ I am glad I went even though there’s no denying it was challenging and I had reached a nice ‘make my peace’ place inside of me. I didn’t think a 10min visit with no eye contact from my side and a third party present (my replacement nurse) would upend this too much
2/ I didn’t expect the sadness that came over me whilst on the premises
3/ He was lovely but also distant, just like I was. It confirmed I was right to leave my job as I find him irresistible, sensitive and totally unsuited to me outside the professional realm not to mention spoken for with 3 children. He started to be more distant with me when I asked him to whilst still working for him, for the record.
4/ I came to meet my replacement, luckily not a threat but good enough to feel happy for him professionally.
5/ I came home cursing my neurologist-divergence and uniqueness although I prefer me to him any day! And totally confirmed in the fact that I had to leave. Loved the job and was great at it. Hence the sadness. Hopefully life will show me this was not all in vain.
Thanks Trifle. Not sure you’ll read that as not sure you’ll be notified I have replied unless you look for it? It’s not like a private messaging, is it? X
Hi FrenchTart,
I just now found your update.
You can never predict how these post-NC reunions will go… Except that they will probably stir up some strong emotions.
It seems you handled it as well as you could. Kudos for that! I can imagine the sadness was tied up not just to your LE but your former job as well.
And that sounds good that you at least got closure for leaving your job.
I wish you the best!
Hi FrenchTart, I replied to you slightly in the wrong place… Please scroll down a little bit for it.
Imho
Ah ah so much for being ‘an old hand at this site’ LOL Scroll down, I did. Thank you.
Hi. I feel the need to share my story on the hopes of getting some help or guidance. I am 20 and have felt limerence a few times in my life while never knowing the term. However, I always realised how obsessive my thoughts were and never acted upon them. This time tho, I did. I thought that acting and seeking contact could be a new way of trying to manage that. I also wanted to be brave ans try something new. My LO and me saw each other the first time around at a party, he noticed me and gave me a compliment and yeah, I wa interested in him because he showed interest in me. However, I also found his personality and the way he acted with others really attractive and kind. From that day on I fantasised about him everyday for one on month. After that I asked for his number to chat. He also was interested and curious, however he was very inconsistent from the start aka. he would take long to text and reply. We met once, I was super nervous and shy, especially after he called me “cute” and I exaggerated that persona. The thing is, contact broke, he was super flaky. He would propose plans but then ignore my positive responses as well as cancel last minute. It’s been 2 weeks of silence between us. He lives close to me tho and works at a local bakery I visit. The truth is, I genuinely do find him interesting and would like to get to know him as a person. But I am not able to because of my infatuation I wish I didn’t have. There is a glimpse of hope in me, thinking if I better myself I can reconnect with him in the future on mutual ground of he wants to. But is that also limerence? It’s really hard to feel obsessive over someone you actually do appreciate and someone who is near you. His mixed signals also make me question why he distanced himself and I feel really frustrated by the thought my nervousness and overthinking pushed him away. I also am not in a place to be in a romantic relashionship nor do I want it realistically, but I thought that a friendship with him would be nice or that it may could lead to romance in the future as we get to know each other. In other words, I antes to get to know him as a person, but I just was too obsessed and romantically inclined. I am also aware that I only/mostly contacted him because of my limerence, however, I genuinely think he is a great person that I would love to have in my life. I wonder if we both simply were overwhelmed and unsure what the other wanted and he pulled back because of that? Either way, I am scared of no contact but am also scared of it. I don’t know what to do to be healthy and happy. For me and also for him, if there is still hope.
Hi Lex! Welcome and thanks for sharing. I’ll just quote something that may help you or at least help you consider not doing anything about this (given your LO’s flakiness) and take a back seat and let the feelings go through you and die out (yes, even with the added difficulty of him being a nice person – believe me though he has his flaw like all of us – and being in proximity). Here it goes:
‘if it’s meant to be, it will be, you won’t have to force it, convince, or worry over it. Let it flow, let it be, and let it come to you. You’re attracting everything you need. Trust the timing of your life’.
This is on my kitchen wall and blows my mind every time as I am such a will-power house! But this is a reminder that another way is possible and sometimes the best policy, for our sanity.
We limerents make a meal out of one person in the world but he can’t be the only nice person on this earth, surely… Expand your horizons?
Let us know how you get on. Don’t stay alone with all this going on.
“His mixed signals also make me question why he distanced himself and I feel really frustrated by the thought my nervousness and overthinking pushed him away.”
Lex
I can’t say for sure that I was limerent at the same age as you are now, as that was many years ago, but I was certainly quite obsessed with her. I very much thought I was in love with her and that I wanted a future with her. And at first she was quite accepting of the attention I wanted to give and the gifts I showered her with. I think eventually she pulled back when she finally decided that she just wanted to stay friends. Our families were friends and I knew her since I was around 12-13.
Friends is a very hard thing to maintain when one or both have attraction or romantic feelings for each other or it is one sided. Not saying that it is impossible, but very difficult. And perhaps he is trying to sort things out on his end the same as you.
But limerence can be particularly difficult for the LO especially if not reciprocated. People looking from the outside can see it, while the limerent can feel that they are maintaining the limerence and not acting as obsessive as they really are. But limerents tend to “bleed” their limerence unknowingly.
In my, for sure limerent episode, about 4 years ago everyone could see it with me. This time however I am married and she was a co-worker and much younger than me. The limerent isn’t looking through the same lens as outside observers with their own behavior. I almost crashed into a full blown one sided emotional affair before I started being honest with myself. Obviously that’s not the case with you and your LO as you are both available to each other when the time is right. Just trying to impress upon you how clouded we limerents can be to our own interactions with our LOs.
Hi, thank you so much for your reply. 🙂
I really tried to keep it in check, but yeah, you are probably right, he must have noticed something.
He is a very extroverted, playful and laid back guy. So even when I tried to give him space it may have still have been too much?
The truth is, we never discussed what the other wanted. I thought, simple casual let’s getting to know each other, there’s no need for convos. I think that’s how he felt as well (assuming). And I think to some extend that’s true, however, I wasn’t healthy. As much as I wanted to go with the flow I just had so much pressure of needing to impress him and it working out romantically even tho I’m not in a place I actually want nor can do that.
I also must say, he was really distant in itself. He would, for example, express interest in seeing me and ask about my time but only make plans 3-5 days later. He never was truly considerate of my time. It’s something I tend to ignore or out the blame on me, but he was like that since the beginning.
He would implement me and say a lot of things but then be distant.
The truth is, I was aware of my obsessives from the start, even when I didn’t know the name, so I talked to a lot to therapist and stuff. But that led to massive overthinking.
All in all, I am aware of my endless nights thinking of him, I am aware of not being able to eat because of him, only dreaming of him, thinking about him 24/7, even lingering outside the bakery to see him, I felt drained, sad, embarrassed and with every fiber in my being I wanted/want to have a normal connection with him.
The truth is, I know that his passiveness is on him but yeah, if it was because of my behaviour (nervousness, shyness, overthinking etc.) that makes me really sad.
All in all, I simply wish I has started this connection in a healthy way. So that we could be happy together or I simply happy alone.
The lines between romance, platonic, casual, serious, etc. blurred in our connection I think. It made it difficult to asses what to do. And that’s leaving out my own issues.
I guess, I am at a point where I 100% want to heal. But I also want to heal with him in mind and that sacres me. Because that is also limerent, right?
It’s like, I rationally want to get to know him and keep it platonic (at first). But my thoughts need us to connect and needs it to be romantic.
I also think that even when I heal, our apple is rotten.
The thought of him moving on (he certainly has, we only met once) makes me so incredibly sad and angry it scares me.
Sorry, quite the long rant ig. But yeah, it’s a really difficult experience to come to terms with. 🙁
@Lex
I think it’s more effective to simply ask him what he wants, if he would like to go on a date with you, be friends, whatever. That would stop the rumination because you would know. Then the limerence would eventually die away either because you’re in an actual dating relationship, or because you know he doesn’t want that.
I used to obsess over guys for years in high school, then in college started being more proactive. It was more complicated with the FWB, but with other guys I could ask them out and we either started dating or he said no and I moved on.
Hey guys. I run into the word limernece a few days ago and am wondering if I do have it or not. The truth is, either way, I want to better myself but I feel a lot of anxiety when I think about being Limerent. Because being Limerent, as far as I heard, means being NC forever with your LO and I hate the thought. So now I wonder if I hate the thought because I genuinely want to know the person or because I am obsessive and not noticing. I don’t know if I explained myself correctly. Bit it’s frustrating. I have these romantic thoughts about this guy I really like but I know I am not ready for a relashionship, I would like something platonic but my mind and body aren’t letting me. He is also sending mixed signals: being passive, taking days to respond, being friendly, giving me compliments, proposing plans, canceling plans last minute, etc.
Either way, we don’t seem to match right now. But would I be able to ever have a healthy connection with him? I think he’s a cool guy and it sucks I have to deal with so much turmoil. I also know we will meet sooner or later because of our life circumstances and it scares me to run into him without fully knowing what is happening to me.
Vanessa,
Hello and welcome. First off, being limerent does not mean being forever in NC with the person you like. NC is a goal you should reach for if your limerence is causing you severe emotional distress or affecting a current relationship you are in. Your situation does not seem to be at the point of limerence. Because other than mentioning being somewhat nervous in his presence (which is natural if you’re crushing on a person) you don’t seem to fully exhibit the signs of what limerence feels like.
Limerence is like an all-consuming, extreme crush on a person, that can almost feel physically painful in the heart. You’re mind is constantly on this perfect person. They can do no wrong. You find everything about them flawless and almost everything they actually do is sacred. Even just by them looking or glancing at you can erupt feelings of euphoria within.
You mention that you are not really ready for a relationship. If you were truly limerent, you would adore this person and want to be with them all the time. They would be your perfect companion and you would strongly want anything for this to be an actual relationship. So being just platonic would not meet the standard of limerence and what it feels like internally. Limerence feels often like an altered state of mind.
Whether or not you could have relationship with this person depends on the two of you. He doesn’t seem to be all that into you. If he was interested, he would work a little harder at connecting with you. So it seems a little one sided at this point.
Sammy breaks limerence down well in the post below, so please have a look at that as well.
@MJ.
“Sammy breaks limerence down well in the post below, so please have a look at that as well.”
My breakdown of early stages of limerence is actually based on the experiences of two different people mixed together:
(1) Myself as a teenager. My own experience of being in unrequited limerence with a member of the same sex. (The euphoria was amazing. The soul mate delusions = awesome for poetic inspiration, but a bit weird in real life so thank goodness I didn’t disclose. The jealousy when he did get a girlfriend – unbelievably difficult).
(2) The experience of the girl who was in unrequited limerence with me. While I went down the shame-and-secrecy social withdrawal route, she went down the “shout it from the rooftops to friends” route. Eventually word of her intoxication got back to me…
It was great that she thought so highly of me, and was willing to publicise the wonders of Sammy. But I also felt embarrassed, because I knew I wasn’t as wonderful as she wanted to believe, and part of what she said was just the dopamine talking. I also felt immense guilt – not because I led her on, but because I couldn’t live up to her idealised image of me. A bit of a double bind, really.
@Sammy
The way Dr. L explains limerence in his first video was very much the way I experienced my LE. It was almost scary how much criteria I met for the condition. So I tried to break it down to Vanessa, much in the way LO drove me off my rocker. How I felt whenever she was around.
NC has dramatically helped in lessening the desire to see LO but I know I’d still like to again at some point. I probably don’t live as purposefully as I should, but NC does ease the craving.
Vanessa,
Welcome along to LwL.
I would suggest – *if* you were both single and *if* you did feel ready for a relationship – that the way to steer clear of limerence is to find out (by asking him) if he’s interested in pursuing anything with you.
Limerence only really turns bad (and needs NC) when it is frustrated by behaviour and/or barriers on one or both sides, from it turning into anything else better. The bit before that could feel like the start of any romantic feelings / crush, which is a bit giddying at the best of times. The type of questions Sammy asks you are mainly more likely to apply once a person reaches the ‘frustrated’ bit of limerence. DrL did a post early in the blog on different limerent pathways. I’ll post the link for you later (once I refind it) unless someone beats me to it.
But besides all that, it sounds like he isn’t treating you that well by blowing hot and cold. Unless you can face a conversation about it, then NC/LC and trying to distract your mind onto healthier things does sound a good avenue.
Let us know how you go!
I learned about limernece a few weeks ago. I have felt limernece my whole life without knowing it. I never acted on it tho because I knew, the guys I’m thinking about I don’t actually like, it’s not even a crush. I was always very self aware. I knew that in whatever way, I needed to work on myself before starting relashioships I wasn’t (and still am not) happy in my life and this was something that I always knew. The first time around at the age of 13. Well, now I am 20 and I contacted one of those guys for the first time and I do regret it massively. I did it with good intentions, I realized that I was obsessively thinking and thought, well might as well be brave and act upon it. But now, things don’t work out, I wasn’t emotionally prepared (something I knew beforehand), he is something that is around me from time to time because of life circumstances. I regret contacting him because I activated an active leminence, that now I know the word for. With the other guys I feel like I can work on myself and act good with them since I never had contact and at some point I hopefully will be healthy. But with him, it feels like it’s not possible because he perceived me and we had a rocky connection. He was quite passive, don’t know why. But yeah, what do you think? Can I still be in contact with him once I learn to regulate my feelings? Or is it never possible. Again, I am very new to all this in the sense that I just learned recently about this term I see some similarities to my experience. However, also to add, I would not only fantasise about boys I actively likes but also about boys I dint like but knew they liked me. Sometimes I would even have the same patterns but with people I had no attraction to, meaning, I would cry and overthink and fantasize about not wanting to hurt the person by rejecting them. Hope I explained myself. Would love to hear back from others. I am glad there’s a little community I could form part of. 🙂
Hi. Welcome to the community! You seem very self aware and what you describe doesn’t really seem like limerence in my eyes. I am obviously not an expert. But you may be dealing with obsessive thoughts, anxiety and anxious attachment rather than limerence. They kinda overlap, but since you don’t seem to actually love or like the person romantically, it seems like you rather have a hard time having real life connections of any kind and therefore have daydreams, obsessive thoughts and anxiety. Again, no expert. But maybe you could research that, because it doesn’t seem to be fully limerence in my eyes. Either way, sending lots of love. You got this!! Whish I would’ve been so self aware at 20, yet even 13.
Melody,
I would second all of what LH says to you. I don’t know how you came upon limerence as a way of seeing your experience, but maybe this is a wider issue of how you can increase your openness and confidence towards a variety of relationships, focusing on platonic ones first? If you have routes to getting that kind of help (to work on yourself first) it could be good.
Good luck. Do keep talking to us if it helps as there are lots of wise folks here!
@Melody & Vanessa.
I think a person can tell whether they’re experiencing the early stages of limerence or not based purely on their own internal feelings/responses. Forget the boy and whatever he may or may not be feeling for you, and focus exclusively on yourself in order to answer the following questions:
(1) Do you feel euphoric all of a sudden, with no apparent cause? Do you have ridiculous amounts of extra energy? Are you having trouble sleeping and eating? When you’re around the boy you like, and get a seemingly positive response from him, does that give you euphoria too? Do you want to keep going back for another hit of euphoria?
(2) Are you on an emotional rollercoaster ride already? Do you experience crashing lows, spells of crippling depression, crying jags even. And, again, do these lows appear to have no apparent cause? When the boy you like acts emotionally neutral or seemingly dismissive of you, do you feel these lows even more intensely?
(3) Do you have vague feelings of having found your “soul mate” or “twin flame”, despite the fact you’re not in a socially-recognized relationship with this so-called “soul mate” or “twin flame”? Do you catch out your brain getting a little ahead of itself in terms of your actual relationship status?
(4) Are you self-isolating as a result of your new and very exciting romantic feelings? Are you neglecting old hobbies? Are you shutting out friends and family? Have you lost interest in pets? Has your behaviour in general become increasingly secretive and shame-based? Do you feel you have a guilty secret you need to hide from other people (and even from yourself?)
(5) If you are comfortable talking to your friends about your love interest, are your friends thoroughly sick of hearing about said love interest? Do your friends think you’re “too much” and that your love interest “sounds too good to be true”? Do your friends think you’re acting a bit strange and obsessive and delusional, and want the old “fun” version of you back?
(6) Do you feel “crazy alive” and want the feeling of being “crazy alive” to last forever? Has this natural “high” become more valuable to you than other natural highs e.g. sugar, coffee, exercise, adventures in nature?
(7) Are you “shy, awkward, and clumsy” around your love interest? Do you still want to believe, despite being shy and awkward and clumsy, that you’re connecting with him in a deep and profoundly beautiful way?
(8) Would you feel jealous/devastated if your love interest developed a very obvious (and reciprocal) romantic connection with someone else?
Hi Sammy,
Thank you so much for your answer. It’s nice to know people are here helping each other. 🙂
1+2= yes, I did feel euphoric and also depressed depending on how he would act. I would also be unable to eat for almost the entirety of our connection. Especially in the beginning when I contacted him for the first time.
3. No, but I generally don’t believe in such things. I did go trough our connection more intensely then it was logical for the little connection we had.
4. A little bit, yes. I have a very small social life tho and in general not a lot of things to do either way. I did talk to friends about the guy, but I did not talk about maybe being Limerent.
5. Yes and no. My friends think that I am talking and thinking to much. But they actually tell me that the guy seems to be nice and to not stress about it. They repeatedly said that I was overthinking to much and that I should relax.
6. Not really. Yes, I felt a joy thinking about him and a lot of my happiness revolved about him but I don’t know if necessarily high. I’m not sure, maybe yes? Idk
7. Oh, yes I am extremely shy and nervous. I know I am not connecting deeply with him because I’m not able to show my true self and it’s frustrating. I have low self esteem and he has lots of things I feel insecure about. I don’t see myself eye to eye with him and can’t loosen up. It’s really painful.
8. Yes, I think so. Imagining him with other girls makes my chest hurt quite a bit.
I am also a little bit confused in general. I also wanted to thank LH for proposing that I could have anxiety? Idk. Maybe I should talk to a professional. But I am trying to navigate what I am feeling and am really overwhelmed.
Hi everyone. Great post regarding the holidays. For me, who is 2.5 into a limerent episode with a co-worker that really peaked in intensity the past 3-4 months, I’m welcoming the holidays as a chance to go NC for 2 full weeks.
Feeling the pangs of withdrawal this afternoon as I try to navigate my brothers’ 50th birthday, but I’m resolute to stay away from connecting and disciplining myself from the temptations of rumination and of reviewing photos/past texts as much as possible the next 2 weeks.
Hoping to leverage a successful 2 weeks contract break into a more disciplined return to work, and a more intentional approach to keeping contact minimal and conversation topics generic with LO when we do have to interact in the new year . Easier said that done, but that’ll be my New Year’s resolution for sure.
I’ve found in past Christmas breaks that if I can go NC, it really does help turn the temperature/intensity down, and even in that short period of time, by the end of the 2 weeks I can feel the return of other interests (including my sense of connection to my family) that normally take a major back seat to the irreparable pull of LO interactions and preoccupation. These holiday breaks are always a good reminder that cutting out contact really can help bring color and vibrancy back to the other aspects of life – so worth it.
Wishing all of you fighting the battle these holidays the best! Grateful for having found this community 👍
Hi MB, I can’t remember if you commented before, if not then a big welcome and thanks for sharing your thoughts. I like this phrase you said –
“These holiday breaks are always a good reminder that cutting out contact really can help bring color and vibrancy back to the other aspects of life – so worth it”
Wishing you the best too !
Hello FrenchTart,
I’m glad you found your way to the coffeehouse for a chat. You are welcome to a nice virtual slice of cake to enjoy with your coffee.
Thanks for sharing your update. I know it’s hard to do so yet helpful at the same time.
You seem very self-aware, and conscious of the right actions, which I think I commented on in your initial post also.
You are doing the right things I would say, despite it being hard for you!
And you deserve to take the leading role in your life and not be in the shadow of LO, who you are only a footnote in his. Sorry, I’m using your own words here.
You said a real relationship would be a big step & you question if that will even happen.
You sound like an intelligent and sensitive person with much to give. I would just say to make space to have some fun in your life as well concentrating on your studies. Even if you don’t want to, make yourself socialise and meet new people and the enjoyment will come, I promise it works this way round from my own experience.
Trifles gives you great words too.
On the check-up appointment, do you really need to do this ? Will it help you or just be a setback. Will he even care?
You said
“There is no denying that NC is the best policy and helps me give more weight to the evidences that he never cared about me”
(caveat on my comments that I’m an ‘old hand’ as you said on your other post but I’m still certainly still struggling myself with limerence !)
Best wishes
Don’t remember which of you ladies mentioned mulled wine but I bought a bottle of it and I like it! Nice and spicy and sweet but not too sweet. Much better than port.
Adam,
I think Mila knows the best one but on our side of the pond it is everywhere, especially in the run up to Christmas.
Heat it with sliced orange in it if you didn’t already. And it can be nice with a little bit of brandy or kirsch added – purely for the taste improvement, you understand.
I never had any, can you guys give me some specific names?
Ate too much already, on diet now. But booze 🍸 is okay.
Snow – Glühwein is the German name for it and these tend to be best.
Glad you are indulging – it is what this time of year is for! January is for diets!!
https://i.imgur.com/IQerK2A.jpeg
Hopefully the link works. Its what I bought today.
Lim-a-Rant
Gonna buy me some brandy tomorrow. Dont know what kristch is.
Kirsch is a cherry liqueur.
Thanks for the recommendation, LaR,
When I’m on regular diet, I often dreamed to have almost reached some desired food but never managed getting them into my mouth before I woke uu — a hungry ghost in my dreams.
Now when overeating for holiday, guess what I dreamed last night — the night of Winter Solstice? —
I was engaged to marry this local young man (my arrogant, wealthy student in limerence with me, I hated the situation in reality 5-6 yrs ago), and there was fuss about planning the wedding with a lot of COO folks mixed in, in a remote COO village.
Then I slipped out, back to my town, the bohemian district to find LO5 for a MFf…. Then his several female neighbors kept knocking at his door, asking for something stupid questions (he’s very knowledgeable)… so the flight could not be fully taken off… I just wanted to get off the bed to punch those ladies, giggling in a residential hallway….
Unable to do anything, I woke up…
***
Adam, thanks for the link, that helps shorten my search in a local spirit store.
I prefer a local brand, and the best is self-made, I’m sure there are lots of recipes online.
Never tried Christkindl, but it’s in every supermarket here.
From today’s Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/C2B6JKXPSFEJRFKECVBYVSWHQQ.jpg&w=1200
That about sums it up.
That looks like chocolate fudge or something!
I’d try to make it at home, if possible.
I‘ve never made it but should be quite easy, you just need wine, orange, sugar and spices like cinnamon sticks, clove, cardamom, star aniseed. Never let it boil. I‘m sure if you look in the internet, you‘ll find a recipe.
Looks interesting LE..
This isn’t alcohol related but I’m almost interested..
https://www.reddit.com/r/shittyfoodporn/comments/r50jg1/in_1960s_made_hot_dr_pepper_with_slice_of_lemon/?rdt=38834
There are easy enough recipes to make Mulled wine —
https://www.gimmesomeoven.com/mulled-wine-recipe/
I like to invent my own 🍹 and improvise my own food. 🥘
Meanwhile, dance your evening away — https://youtu.be/5sye_VxmNZA?si=ACSwls7x622iaifY — Bailamos
We tend to make it when hosting Christmas day. It is great for keeping the families merry and non-bothersome! SO tends to buy all those spices together as in a kind of giant fun mulling teabag. Like I told Adam, adding a dash of something potent from behind the Amoor’s bar could do a lot for it.
Mila, I never knew not to let it boil. Thanks 👍
Snow,
When I listen to that song, I hear “By L’amoors”. And I did even long before Amoors took on its new meaning in this place!
I think in my last life I was a Latin American, because the tempo of my blood & Qi flowing match beats/rhythm their music and dances, nowhere else…
But I don’t click with wild looks of men and women over there (dated two), not my cup of tea… or perhaps I just reincarnated into a “mismatched” place in this life..
Brother Adam, we just need to order a few black and tans and try not to cry into them too much..
I’ll have an update soon..
Yes, we need some colors in our BelL’ Amoor —
https://youtu.be/C4uVUYcD1vs?si=8eJTuM6yS8kSs9PF — Spicy Margarita
“It’s hot enough, let’s take it off…” 💃 🕺🏿
And NOT play either Air Supply, Bread, Neil Diamond, Lobo, Carpenters, Bee Gees, Lionel Richie or Shawn Mnfes… oh crap is there any music that isn’t about heartbreak? Ooooh my new fovorite lady; country music even Miss Terri Clarke …
https://youtu.be/RAbrk3OISyo?si=MRqcUvqNnKuLHIgG
Move over LO I got a new obsession. (I’m not very sober.). Mother Lovisa where are you? I miss you.
MJ how you and Lady Friend doing? 🙂
Here’s one for you two. 🙂
https://youtu.be/dT2owtxkU8k?si=MIZ3M3mdd6QuBPRR
Goth and metal have lots more topics besides heartbreak. 😉
Adam,
I am drawn Latin American music and dance (so far away from my COO) because they don’t dwell on heartbreak stuff, but life celebration which makes one forget one’s heartache for the time being…
And if music really matches one’s pulse and tempo, trust me that one would go to one’s natural state — forgetting about all those cultural conditions, but t just being our innate being. Watch would toddler would do when you put on their innately-toned music!
Typo: “drawn to Latin American… “
“MJ how you and Lady Friend doing? 🙂”
Thanks for the link Adam. I appreciate it.. It’s been very stressful between us actually..
Hint hint, I disclosed.. 🤯
Now before you decide to beat me over the head for doing that, let me try to gather my thoughts and I’ll get back to you. It really isn’t as bad as it sounds. She took it kinda hard at first, but we’re finally speaking again after her hating me for a week. I’ll explain..
In the meantime, lets have another round..
🍻
MJ,
“Now before you decide to beat me over the head for doing that”
I think it is great you disclosed. Why not? You’re both single. Not sure why she was mad. Can’t imagine she didn’t already know … but you gave us mone of the deets. 😀
Performing at open mic night at the Amoor Inn on Xmas Eve:
The Welder
Performing
“The Fire Down Below” – Bob Seeger (1976)
https://youtu.be/R5oCR89eww8?feature=shared
Merry Xmas peeps!
When I’m at a rock party, I don’t even want to know any auditable words, just music, beats, and your hips — 🕺🏿💃
https://youtu.be/arZZw8NyPq8?si=etNMc-9wswgLz85n — the Ketchup Song
I didn’t understand a word of it but I like it!
Keep drinking and you will.. 🤪
Hey, Red-hair admirer and the Welder’s father,
That’s the whole point torock with your nature-sync rhythm without needing to understand a word!
https://youtu.be/rf2jwgSXJVM?si=9RTfwHWZ8VyG9qOy — La Bomba
MJ, is it hot enough yet?? 🎶
Turn it up.. 😂🎵🍺
MJ, is that your LO?
Rhytem divine — https://youtu.be/5sye_VxmNZA?si=Bx-pWbb7IfNSgwu— Limerent’s gazing-eye chasing
https://youtu.be/UZrzOZaI7UE?si=BCXA0QuUhZGYsPwU — rhythm divine
Not quite Snow. Pretty Latinas there but definitely no LO.
LO is blonde. Think Ava Max.. A lot of similarity to LO in this one..
https://youtu.be/OHGl1cprHrM
Keep imaging it up…. If bunny is not bad, you won’t chase…🐰
https://youtu.be/gu9_m0vm7fM?si=KxNvj4_AGPAIFvCW — Bad 🐇
Am I late to the party? 😅
Oh wow, Enrique’s bath is sizzling hot! I’m sorry but I just don’t see him and his “lady friend” fitting in at the bar at L’Amoors. Or else we have to step up our game!
LaR, can you do some more updates to the bar? And please wear a tux from now on. Also, only simple drinks with one or two ingredients, like rom con hielo. I’m sure that with these small tweaks we can attract a new kind of patron. Not that there’s anything wrong with the current patrons!
I’m also late to the party. Which is ironic given that the L’Amoors appears to have been turned into a Latin American disco themed night, fuelled by mulled wine – all while I slumbered upstairs.
Trifles, I take the point about the clientele in the bar. I gotta think about this in terms of finding some better dance partners for ‘single and ready to mingle’ ladies like you and Snow, haven’t I? Currently your choice if you drink there is between about 7 men from LwL and that bloody welder.
I’ll do some thinking while I shop for bow ties. Maybe some French Art for the walls and get some jazz bands in would start to create the right vibe? Open to suggestions 🎼🍷💞
—
MJ,
In amongst the Latin American frivolity, I see you’ve disclosed 😮 Hope you’re doing OK dude. Here for you if and when you want to chat.
“Currently your choice if you drink there is between about 7 men from LwL and that bloody welder.”
You’re saying that they will do for dance partners if I drink enough (beer goggles)? 😜
With what’s been going on as of late, the welder has really earned my sympathy and I feel my rescue complex kicking in…
Your other suggestions sound great – you have my approval to implement them.
“You’re saying that they will do for dance partners if I drink enough (beer goggles)? 😜”
I just supply the beers. Only you know how they affect yout 🥽 .
“the welder has really earned my sympathy and I feel my rescue complex kicking in…”
Really?! I had him a shower installed and provided mouthwash and cologne at Snow’s insistence. I also gave him beef trifle. If he wants to continue to live in an outbuilding by L’Amoors just so he can keep sharking the LwL ladies, then I don’t know what else a barman is to do. I think I have been quite kind given he burned holes in my wall.
Girls/guys, L’Amoor Inn is DrL’ Tardis!
It can expand infinitely for whatever we need to install or decorate —
1. Bar
2. Dinning tables
3. Many, may private/quiet booths/conners for confession, soothing whispering of limerents’ limerence pains.
4. A splashing pool and dancing floor for hot disco parties after a round of cocktails. We need them to temporarily shake off our LE longing pains, particularly during holidays
5. Smooching (for Adam/Momma, Welder/❓) and slumbering chambers upstairs
6. A back door to the Moor, to the outdoor shed.
7. An outdoor pool for the summer.
Let’s keep expanding our imagination 🔥 alive…
LaR, you still need to leave shaving cream and a titanium zipper lock in the shed for free choice, be thoughtful…
Trifles, I know your heart soon or later would “melt” for Welder even if he may burn down L’Amoor again…
Snow,
I love the vibrancy you brought to the Inn last night!
Judging by this discussion, perhaps use of the titanium lock would be premature?
Trifles, LaR,
You’d never be late for L’Amoor patrons; we keep L’Amoor open around hours!
You take care of afternoon crowds, and I late night ones. That welder naps at odd hours, so could appear anytime in LwL reality 🪅 or in LwL dreams! 💭
What’s in the core of every straight male’s LwL longing ❓— EL BANO… 💋 whether it is acknowledged of not…
By the way, I’ve been to a lap dancing club in town with a date and watched her working with him… my curiosity and Naivety brought me to all sorts of encounters 😳 , as a cool-headed instigator and observer… 😇
LaR,
Now I have to disclose to convince you to get a titanium lock for some saintly/priestly men, like LN’s new date —
I was in a NA (New Age) training once in a lush, private residence in HW looking over beach, with an outdoor pool — the policy: whoever gets in the pool needs to be naked, day or night!
At last day/evening, there was a ceremonial event and afterwards dancing. My Qi/blood or whatever moved my feet, like in those video clips, on the floor, with me puzzled noticing “weird” or curious looks in the eyes of men and women around me… I also saw a married couple on the floor — showing X-rated scene…🤷🏻♀️
It was hot (in August), so I went out to the pool. I jumped in and hid under water under the Moon… soon 4 men (including a gentleman in LE with me, 6 months later, he chased me to my town and spent 3 nights on my bed without me ever touching him — sorry, NO glimmer! ) jumped in and kept distance with me respectfully… the other two (one of them— LO#4.5..) stood outside the pool watching… Nothing happened, we did not even chat — silence under the Moonlight. Later, I cooled down, got up, put on my dress, walked away…
My neck got “stoned/twisted” the next morning due to the wild dance. The nice, my gentleman Limerent found a chiropractor immediately (it moved the neck magically in just 3 minutes), so I could catch my flight in the afternoon.
Do you think a couple of titanium locks should be available in L’Amour, just in case… ❓ Be assured that I’m not a vampire, just a small bird 🐦🔥…
LE, are you still on mulled wine? Here are more —
https://youtu.be/WBALe-cBWGo?si=IlEnkVPa1S6bU1gZ — Tonight (I’m Lovin’ you — LO)…💃
https://youtu.be/yYedTpODkx8?si=QU7ozeFgiunXPBs- Be with You — LO🕺🏿
My ESL can’t catch most of the words… Ignorance is innocent 😇
Snow,
I don’t drink mulled wine. Too much sugar. If anything, it would be a classic gin martini or whisky (I worked part time in a distillery until the boiler broke).
I envisioned the inn as more Rick’s Cafe Americain from “Casablanca.” But, I only created The Welder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbDv7XXrPqE
I’m more Julio Iglesias then Enrique. I really like:
“To All the Girls I’ve Loved Before” – Willi Nelson & Julio Iglesias (1983)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myM7XIDI7jE
“To all the girls who shared my life
Who now are someone else’s wives
I’m glad they came along
I dedicate this song
To all the girls I’ve loved before”
Not that there were all that many of them.
We could make this the “sway song” when we slow things down at the Inn.
Meanwhile, The Lawyer drinks alone…
The Lawyer seems unpopular …
LE,
You are such a romantic soul! 🥰
I’ve watched “Casablanca” a couple of times, Rick’s cafe is really cool, but it’s for 1940s! 80 years later, we can have it in the main sector of L’Amoor and let limerents of all sorts mingle and comfort each other there.
But we need a bigger room inside the Tardis as our Latin Quarter; so some hot-headed Limerents could rock out their excessive, stuck LE cold-n-hot energy or cool it down in the spring-water pool. Without Ricky and Enrique, myself might unintentionally blow my 🔥 on some gentle customers, or even that welder 🧑🏭!
I used to like Julio Iglesias a lot, but nowadays, I think his tones are too soft, or overly romantic fitting Hollywood screen… I could even blame his songs for my idiotic romancing tendency….
Still, I agree that “To all the girls I’ve loved before” as our themed swaying melody…
The lonely Lawyer? Why did you bother to bring him in? If he has some muscles, I’d put him in the Latin Quarter; but he’s so pale that I’m a friend that one aroma 👠 would knock hm out of conscious… 😵💫
LaR,
Why do you think I divorced a lawyer with Asperger? Then another brief-case encounter just made me 👎 the whole species of them.
You can spare them a titanium lock… 🔐
Typo: “I’m afraid that one aroma 👠 …”
Well any old man that is “making love to his tonic and gin” probably isn’t going to be popular. And I resemble that … err resent that comparison ….
L.E., No, the Lawyer, who moonlights as a bartender, and claims to also be a farmer, is drinking with me. In the recesses of last week’s piano bar.
Don’t worry about lawyers, they’re used to putting up with all the lawyer jokes while laughing their way to the bank.
But now I’m confused – is the “old man” also a lawyer? And where did that welder go..?
Trifles,
So the lawyer is the farmer and barmen (as I thought)? 😳
I think LE’s lawyer is someone else sitting on a far corner of L’Amoor.
In your original jingle, you made Adme “making love to his tonic and gin”…. He’s sobbing now…. 😢
Don’t worry about the welder. I’ll keep him in mouthwash, shaving cream and chastity locks. You’ve made the right choice Trife.
There’s an “old man” sittin’ next to me
Cryin’ into his juice and gin
LaR at the bar gives a wink to me,
Says “Don’t worry ’bout the welder no more”
“He had to take a trip
It’s just a small blip
Now how do you make that rum drink again?”
“You just stick in the ice,
Forget the measures,
Grab the rum and then pour,
While the welder howls ‘cross the moor”
Hmm,
We need some dumb bells and sand kicking bags, to beef up the lawyer’s muscles…
Then he may sway and swing ,without the titanium lock , in our lush Latin Quarter…
Are you on the lawyer’s side now Snow?
LaR,
I believe in self-renewal and self-reinvention. Remember what family 🐤 🔥I belong to, mentioned in Dr L’s article, “Phoenix-like, rising from the ashes of limerence”…
Snow,
I appreciate that I normally leave you to it on the late shifts by this time of day. But time off from my real (legal) job has let the natural 🦉out to play, so here I am anyway.
The Lawyer keeps wanting to play these two songs on repeat loop – what should we do?
https://youtu.be/YnopHCL1Jk8?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/dy2nBvtkgyE?feature=shared
I’ve got to confess, I am confused with what vibe we are trying to strike with this bar. One minute we are meant to get classier (Trifles), the next we have The Welder booked for a gig tonight (L.E.). I need your business acumen here – what shall we do?
Got to say, I am happier with ‘Aserejee’ (The Ketchup Song). Two out of three redheads in the video are helpful for withdrawal symptoms.
LaR,
Lawyer is rocking at 3:30pm? Man, I 💗 that. Something is waking him up on the lonely corner! 🎸
Tardis is infinitely expanding, democratic and accepting, letting all genres rock on their own beats, red-hair or red pants that match my feather 🐦🔥!
I’m taking the wing of that plane to visit the continent soon, oh, L’Amoor… Leaving the lock in the moor…
Legal glasses are jingling at 3:30Am
Beating up the LE withdrawal
With the Katchup feet
Oh, Apollo your lyre is mighty indeed 🎸
Tardis is infinitely large
Stretchy and embracing
all colored heart
rocking on their own beat,
red-hair or red pants that echo 🐦🔥’s feathers …
She’d soon flap her wings
soaring over the Atlantic
oh, L’Amoor…
leave the LE 🔐 in the moor….
You’re close to my time zone but not quite! If I can still be rocking at 3.30 I’ll be pleased. I slept about 3 hours in SO’s arms after doing all our christmas wrapping but now here I am am again… you told me to takebextra shifts by L’Amoors to avoid ill advised LO contact, so here I am. What next on the jukebox?
When are you coming to Europe anyway? Please come have a 🍹with me and 🍰
Ok, we’re going to stop feeling sorry for our LE drives —
https://youtu.be/X86S5oZzzh4?si=9C8L6Cx2mikaM2sH —Tired of Being Sorry
When the new 🌹 bursting out crazy, 🐦🔥 be over for her birth renewal…
Not the 🍰 or 🍹 area, though…
Here is another heart warming one —
https://youtu.be/_EA0FpNVT5s?si=pLRgo1nXBTHZ3X2y — La Carisa Negra
No face, no name, no number —
https://youtu.be/67tT2PbiWcI?si=3T9dMMKXk4FUHxU_
Isn’t it what we are here in LwL ❓
Snow,
That’s all lovely. But I am sticking to the Redheads of the Ketchup Song 👩🦰👩🦰
I’m to the black-hair of Las Ketchup —
https://youtu.be/GvSUZRWRU-A?si=bpJghTLxNfrekxOV
LaR, since you’re up and L’Amoor is quiet at the moment, please polish this —
*******
L’ Amoor Bangs Purposeful Naive Livin’
It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday
The regular crowd shuffles in
There’s an “old man” sittin’ next to me
’ into his juice and gin
LaR at the bar gives a wink to me
Says “Don’t worry ’bout the welder no more”
“He had to take a trip
It’s just a small blip
Now how do you make that rum drink again?”
“You just stick in the ice,
Forget the measures
Grab the rum and then pour,
While the welder howls ‘cross the moor”
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
LaR, the barmen and a friend of mine
Who’s getting me my drinks for free
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke
(“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”
As the smile ran away from his face
“We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles
I should kick you out of this place”
Now L.E. a retired, red-hair-fetish submariner
Who enjoys crazy smooching with his wife
Is talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
(“Where is my besodden welder?”)
And MJ is an old-hand limerent
Who’s looking for a younger wife
And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla
But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is swinging her “voodoo” philosophical dances
(Of both the East and West)
As the limerents slowly get stoned
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness
But it’s much better than drinkin’ alone
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday
And ABCD throws me a smile
‘Cause we’ve been comin’ to see DrL’s face on screen
To forget about cold-n-hot LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival
And the disguised welder smells like a mulled beer
And we sit at the bar and give a toast to LaR
And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?”
I see this song as a massive drunk roar
As everyone staggers home across the moor
While paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Snow’s OCD is drivin’ her rambling tongue
that takes a greedy bite of the beef trifle
And rushes to a preaching outside of L’Amoor
On a sunny Saturday afternoon
Now Red-skirted Imho has mysteriously gone missing
And we baffle about it as we aging
But suddenly shouts Snow,
“Oh, wouldn’t you know!
She and the welder are in the corner a-kissing!”
And our beloved Bewitched shrieked at the door
“Oi, hands-off, He’s Mine!”
Now, Mila is back to texting with her LO
Though she declares having no limerent aching left
And we‘ll see how it’d go face to face after a winter’s Moon
Hope for amiable, friendly contact without
Getting irked or distant again ‘round and ‘round at noon
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
‘Trifles – a whizz with the blowtorch -
No puzzle’s too clever for her
On the farm, at the inn
Purposefully naive livin’
And sings “wasn’t it fun to transfer?”
A non-native, fire bird from the Fast East sky
Snow bends her ignorant wings shy
She has no clue how the bang of her black hair
Has got anything to do with “She Bangs”
But her naive eyes catches L ’Amoor banging on fire
And her red heels kickin’ the lawyer’ brief-case in dare
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposeful naive livin’ for life, Here and Now
One more drink before we go
To stop that text to LO
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes
After the Dawn
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Chorus 🎶
It’s fun
It’s thrillin’ to transfer
LO to TO, and TO to LO ‘
round and ‘round the moor
Purposefully Naive Livin’
In sparkly splashing L ’Amoor
Stop stalking LO on a social screen
Stop sending LO the LE oozed vibration Oh,
la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
— Trifles 🥖 LaR 🍹, ❄️ 🐦🔥
December 24, 2024
@Coffeehouse.
Just dropping by to wish everyone a Merry Christmas. 🙂
@MJ.
I noticed in the “YouTube Channel Launch” blog that you’re still struggling quite a bit mentally, so I want to leave you a more personalised message of support.
You wrote: “…this condition continues to baffle and amaze me. How I wish it was an easy fix or I had the common sense to learn from my mistakes.”
Some YouTubers such as Crappy Childhood Fairy (Anna Runkle) say that “when childhood attachment wounds fade, limerence fades too”. Other YouTubers such as Fenna van den Berg suggest that LOs may also have attachment wounds (and hence their inconsistent behaviour I guess?).
While wishing to take nothing away from these two insightful women, whose content I enjoy, I think limerence for most people is just an evolutionary pattern embedded in the human brain. It can sometimes be about attachment wounds or childhood trauma, but it doesn’t have to be. Once one understands the embedded evolutionary pattern, one doesn’t have to surrender to the cycle.
Camille Paglia opines that human sexuality isn’t solely biology or solely culture, but rather, it’s an intricate mix of both biology and culture. So I imagine the drive to pair-bond and reproduce comes largely from biology. However, who we are drawn to pair-bond/reproduce with (LO archetype) might be partially derived from the culture we find ourselves in, and/or early childhood experiences.
I must be right at the end of my own limerence “hurricane”. My nervous system has really settled down. The other night I had a dream, and a stanza from a poem I wrote when I was 16 (and in the early-yet-still-very-intense days of limerence) came back to me. I mean, I woke up from dream and remembered a fragment of a poem I wrote way back in 1999, a poem I had mostly forgotten about:
Yes, dear, I am dying, like the day,
For God deems Man to fall.
But I shall stand in gentle way
And smile a smile, and smell your smell,
In heartfelt call.
I believe the poem, in the next stanza, also expressed a wish “To trace footsteps (through dry leaves maybe???) and “To wander twinned through crimson tree”. The final line of the poem was: “Sweet love, live long for me!”
Some people here might think the poetic fragment is romantic. Some of my peers at school might have thought it romantic. However, when I read it back now, in my early 40s, I think: “Wow! Man, I was so cringe as a teenager!” 😆😆😆
As you can tell from the gloomy subject matter, I was experiencing a lot of sadness in my life at that time, probably due to limerence and the impossibility of ever attaching to LO. I think I was slipping in and out of depression, to be honest. But the poem also expresses a largely-subconscious desire to have someone in my life to share things with i.e. what most people would understand as a “mate”/pair-bonding partner. The love the poet (teenage me) longs for isn’t friendship love.
There was a girl in high school who was limerent for me, at the same time I was limerent for a male classmate. It might sound mean or rude, but I honestly found this girl’s behaviour towards me borderline-insufferable. (Perhaps this is why I am so triggered by the seemingly pushy and conceited behaviour of some of the females at LwL who refuse to self-reflect). I mean, I never told this girl to her face she was behaving in an insufferable way. But her burgeoning attraction to me, while pleasant and flattering in the beginning, became increasingly off-putting.
She wouldn’t disclose her feelings for me. But she always tried to trap me into disclosing my feelings for her (feelings I didn’t actually have). We were both single. We were social equals. There was no sound reason for her not to declare her interest and ask for clarity, but she wouldn’t do the first part. She demanded clarity from me (in a roundabout way) while steadfastly refusing to state her own profound psychological investment.
Honestly, I got very tired very fast of playing that little game. Now, though, I understand she wanted to pair-bond with me and limerence probably made her “shy, awkward, and clumsy” whenever she was around me. We bumped into each other at uni once and she just stared at me. She literally couldn’t speak to me. This girl was a girl who was otherwise super-talkative, highly extroverted. 🙄
The strangest encounter I ever had with my own LO was after I graduated from high school, and I returned to school with my parents to pick up my formal photographs. Who should walk into the school library but LO and his own mother? Because I wasn’t expecting to see my LO that day, or under those circumstances, I really had no reaction to him. I didn’t feel excited. I didn’t feel anxious. I completely ignored him and he completely ignored me. We didn’t even greet each other. It was as if we were two strangers who had never met. 😲
Forgive yourself for any mistakes you believe you have made. We have all made mistakes in life or failed at times to interpret situations correctly. 😉
Thank you Sammy. Your post was heartfelt and I appreciate you taking the time delving into your past to help.
What I struggle mostly with now is juggling my time on the weekends to be with Dad in his sickness and what little life I have that surrounds that. His condition is not improving and it is hard mentally for me to deal with the mess and loneliness that comes from dealing with his issues.. Sometimes it’s so depressing that his end of life has come to what it is.
My sadness comes on when I need to escape that reality, into the unreality of LE. I wouldn’t say I ruminate hard like I used to, but adjusting her playlist for the 105th time, looking at her pics or driving through her city helps, but only so much.
It’s like self-abuse because by default, everything about this Woman still brings me to tears. Mind you, I’ve still never even really met or talked to this Woman much, but she will still cause me to break down and bawl like a baby if I want to let it all out. I cry mostly over fantasies I conjured up in my head, that were nothing but pure and innocent. Walking along the beach hand in hand, taking her for ice cream, or just window shopping in her hometown. These moments stick out in my head as if they really were moments that happened and I’m a hot mess because they didn’t.
Just the other night I went to mass again at the church she was married in. I was emotional almost the whole time. After it was over, I took a walk in her downtown all by myself. Just to escape into some fantasy of the 2 of us Christmas shopping together. Maybe getting coffee and the Cafe Lindo on the corner or posing for selfies by the 50 tiny lighted Snowmen by the City Hall. There was snow on the ground and Christmas lights everywhere. It was freezing cold out, like only 23 degrees but it looked like a scene right out of a movie. All that was missing was her hand in mine. I cried almost the whole walk.
Taking a good look at one of her pics recently, that I hadn’t seen in forever brought me to a lot of deep thought and just how ravishing perfect I still see her as. It’s like she embodies everything I ever physically wanted in a Woman and nothing can ever change that. From head to literally toe, its crazy the feelings she still gives me. I haven’t seen her in months and I’m still missing the hell out of her.
A lot of my sadness also comes on too because recently, I had a situation that came up with Lady Friend a few weeks ago, that didn’t really go down as planned. (I’ll update this matter in a separate post) It wasn’t the best choice to do what I did, but I’m finding out things that needed to be known. They are quite sad and depressing but I’m actually seeing her for who she is now. She’s not a perfect person and definitely no LO, but now that I am more aware of who she really is, the odds of her becoming another LO are slim to none. We’re talking again after a bad week and I’m elated she didn’t give up on me. However I’m almost positive that is because she has a level of toxicity in her that causes her to need my attention in whatever way I can give. It’s red flag-ish and probably not the healthiest thing for my psyche, but it at least gets me out of LE land for a minute and it brings me it’s own breadcrumb way of pathetic happiness. I’ll keep dealing with it because it’s all I’ve got.
Thank you again Sammy for your words and support. You’re one of a kind. I hope you have a happy holiday as well. I’ll work on forgiving myself. Maybe start actually doing it when I actually make a right choice for once.
Hi, everybody!
I’ve missed you guys 💙 I started hearing talk about Latin American music and people, and I just had to come back and salsa dance and see if there were any cute Hispanic men around 😂
I’ve just been out and about, meeting new people and having a very interesting time at it! I contacted my xLO in the mix to tell him that my situation has changed and would he like to reconnect? But he just responded kindly that he’s in a relationship and to take care. Closure! It does happen! And it wasn’t even painful; it was just nice to no longer have that question mark over my head.
In fact, I’ve been on a number of face-to-face dates and met a couple of people on-line initially, then in person. This on-line stuff is very interesting. You have to make sure they are real people and not scammers or cat-fishers or whatever. It’s kind of a fun game.
Anyways, I met a really neat man on eHarmony who lives only about a half hour away, and we clicked and got to know each other for five weeks, until he learned he has to be single until July to finish up his schooling for pastoring (!) Whoops! It’s ok. Gives me more time to get my situation in order, too, and check out his church some more to see if it’s a good fit or not for me and my daughters.
It is so refreshing to not be in limerence — and I am so glad that I have this site, and the wonderful community, and the tools to try to prevent “intrusive thoughts” from ever happening again. I find that when I explain limerence to people, the best way is to call them “intrusive thoughts” because maybe then they’ll have a chance at understanding what we go through.
May you all be blessed and have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, and may the New Year bring you lots of non-limerent happiness 😊
💙
Hi Limerent Nurse,
good to hear from you and to hear you are well and happy!
Wish you a merry Christmas and happy New Year too!
Thanks, Mila! How are you?
Hi LN,
I‘m completely stressed with Christmas and holiday stuff 😅BUT
I‘m out of limerence! My last LE is definitely a thing of the past, and no new one on the horizon, I feel very good about it and I‘m quite proud of myself to finally have managed to be limerence-free.
Thanks for asking and have yourself stress-free holidays ❤️!
LN,
It’s great to hear about your limerence free news, and other fun engagement with the life! I’m happy you for your moving on.
Have an enjoyable holiday season with your daughters.
@Mila,
So glad to hear that you are limerence-free! And soon enough, you’ll be holiday-stress-free, too 😃 Like I always say, I can’t wait for Christmas ((to be over)).
@Snow,
Thanks for the well-wishes! How are you?
Still trying all sorts of ways to let go of what’s already gone a while ago….
Hi LN,
how lovely to hear from you again.
I was just yesterday thinking of you and a few others who we’ve not seen for awhile.
I remember how painful the time when it kinda blew up for you, so it’s great to read how you have found closure, progressed out of limerence and exploring the modern world dating. Good for you.
I also wish you much happiness and joy this Christmas.
@IMHO,
Thanks 😊 It feels good to be out of the painful, emotional woods of limerence… and accepting that my ex-husband decided to leave me due to the limerence in my life. I can honestly say after experiencing both, the pain of the limerence was worse somehow, and longer.
Yes, modern dating is very interesting. Though my standards are hardly considered modern: most men don’t gravitate toward the devout Christian woman who waits for marriage for intimacy. But that’s fine with me! Helps weed out a lot of men from the start 😂
How are you?
Limerent Nurse,
well I hope you find a good one out there!
Also hope that you can enjoy some of the benefits of single life ( there are many that do not involve intimacy ) if you can find time amongst family commitments etc !
I will be ok (thanks for asking) but just not yet.
MJ
I’ll be here whenever you want to talk my brother. I still got mulled wine, vodka, and I know yeah crucify me for it, but Miller High Life, at home if you want to have drinks over the conversation when you are ready to talk about it.
Meanwhile I will leave this for you and lady friend.
Rest Your Love On Me — Bee Gees
https://youtu.be/EeBVggLPqns?si=kBMgcQq7mBc9vLSN
Adam,
It’s such a sweet, sentimental song, I so like it!
I also love slow foxtrots and lean my head on the glimmering shoulders…
@Adam,
Thanks for the song Brother. Nice to be thought of today. I’m busy trying to make this ludicrous holiday nice for my kids.
Trying to get into some sort of holiday spirit, but I’m not gonna lie, it’s a bitch and I’m pretty miserable.. Think Grinchy, like at the beginning, where he’s picking his teeth and a heart that’s too small. That would be about how I feel right now.. 🤣🤣
Hope you’re having some sort of joy today. I still haven’t updated my latest situation but I will.. Sorry. Just staying busy and keeping my mind off it for a bit.. I need to..
Stay tuned..
Well I just home from early and gonna make a batch of mulled wine and brandy. Maybe that will calm your nerves. I’m like you around the holidays. Usually more stressful than enjoyable.
Adam, MJ
What are you two young men complaining about, 🙄 I’m all by myself makin’ this mulled wine alone! 🙄
Come to L ‘Amoor later to share our favorite drink called Loneliness “but it’s much better than drinkin’ alone”…
I’ve got one luckier coin — did not grow up with Christmas 🎄s stuff, so it’s like any other day just without work, except a bit extra LE sweet& bitter scent this year….
Just sway and swing with your boundless imaginations, you’ll feel so much better… 🤩 Trust the only 🐦🔥‼️
Snow
I didn’t either. I was raised Jehovah’s Witness so no Christmas, birthdays, etc so I feel about Christmas about the same way you do.
Our oldest son is coming to visit this evening and maybe I can invite him to come along with me too. I dunno what he likes to drink besides vodka. Ill see if he wants to try my mulled wine.
Also if I keep posting tonight Im at the point I cant be responsible for my typos anymore. 🙂
Adam,
But the big environment of your upbringing is “soaked” in Christmas atmosphere… stores are jammed with people for last minute shopping.. and that Santa 🧑🎄 in all forms is “sold” everywhere.
In COO nowadays, the government forbids even registered Christians there to openly celebrate Christmas (at home is fine). The Solar New Year is not that big of a deal (to me it IS), but the Luna New Year is a huge deal (the coming one — 1/29/2025) — 7 national holidays off (except some stores).
Punchline competition:
What’s the first thing Adam says on Christmas morning?
Adam mumbles, “Ma…Momma, where are my britches?…. Opps sorry, I left them in L ‘Amoor’s benches…” 🤭
Well if I’m at in-laws I asked where are the bloody marys as my father in law makes a batch Christmas morning to go with breakfast.
Snow
If I wake up without my short Im just assuming Momma and I had a good night *wink wink* 🙂
Adam,
Of course, it is definite… I count on you for your Nirvana Eve with Momma… Ask her for anything missing on you, excluding LO….
@Snow,
Make it a double for me with that Loneliness drink. At this rate, I might even need a triple.. 🍺🤪
MJ —here you go! 🥃 🥃
We’re two members of the Single Child club, is anyone out there belonging to this club? 🍸 🍹
MJ,
We can keep topping up your glass for as long as you need us to – we are not controlled by normal licensing rules, as you saw with my drunken roaring yesterday. We operate L’Amoors on a room of requirement basis.
“What’s the first thing Adam says on Christmas morning?”
“It’s Christmas, Eve”
LaR,
That’s not a fair cultural competition! Eve is not pronounced as “Eve” but “yiwa” in COO! 🙄
My hands are more itchy to send a signal to Father of Universe… which is hiding in a black hole….
Adam,
Did you get Momma a big fig tree leave and an Apple for tonight? I got a big one 🍎 just a few minutes ago.
I’m about to simmer my first-ever mulled wine!🍷 💃
I’m just sipping the simmering mulled wine, and I’m already tipsy… oh, Boy!
It’s not bad, something so new and strong…. wine 🍷
Ok, the fire is turned off, 🍷 is about to bubble….
Who is here sharing with me🥂?
🎵 🎶 🎼
Belle L ‘Amoor — https://youtu.be/5sye_VxmNZA?si=K5T252hJdSQEJoHb — Bailamos
💃 🫴 🕺🏿
Snow
God please not Nirvana. Id rather put a screwdriver in both my ears.
Now NIN’s Closer *wink wink*. Keep on the mulled wine Snow. I got me another bottle tonight and its predominantly blueberry flavored. So well see.
MJ
Ill sit with you and we can both “make love” to our mulled wine and brandy.
Sometimes I wonder what Dr L and Mrs L like for a drink. Absinth?
I’m still around Snow (sober today, still doing dinner prep for tomorrow after being out all day. SO is slumbering while I put in a shift, so I’ll come and have a glass of mulled with you in a minute and leave Adam and MJ to their serious man chat …
Adam,
I heard a rumour that DrL and MrsL might pop into L’Amoors over the holidays, do some motivational speaking and confirm what their favourite tipple is.
Snow,
That trigger finger to the next planet and the real life mulled wine sound like a dangerous combination … why don’t you cool down in the pool with the lawyer for a while (if he has forgiven you for the 🔥 episode)?
Adam,
I’m just having my 2nd sip, and already not sure how long I’m going to last — I’m not a hard liquor drinker at all, this stuff is strong! 😵💫
Hmmm…are talking about same Nirvana stuff ❓I’m not talking about the music band, but an erotic flight with your Momma to Nirvana.
What’s NIN here? I only know French author Anais Nin who was famous for her published personal journals…
I’m not as faithful as ideal; I can “make love” to our mulled wine while pondering how to make love to many other stuff in life, eg. swaying, swinging, and splashing in the pool with L ‘Amour’s patrons … Are you okay with that? ❓ 😘
LaR,
My fingers stop itching only when I am mad or sad about negative reminisce, usually in the morning. Then of course, I’d try all sorts of efforts to feel better, positive, more energetic and purposeful. Yet, as soon as I become merry, my figures get itchy… it’s caching 22 going upwards spiral… 😕
And when I feel glee, everything “dark” in life becomes neutral or annoyance-free…. I simply don’t care… 🤷🏻♀️
Well – I know we only get a fraction of the real picture here at LwL – but you’ve definitely seemed at your very most cheerful here lately!
My cheer here has been a bit of a mask. It’s not really LO-related (everything is quite calm and quiet there) but I have just got worn down by the sheer amount I have had to do – work and other (plus the ongoing family situation I mentioned). You are right what you said to Adam about the “selling of santa” idea. The pressures to consume (food and drink but also just ‘goods’ generally) in the run up to Christmas and across it are ridiculous here. I just finished preparations today and there’s more to do in the morning (maybe SO – a lark to my owl – will get up before me and do it!). Anyway, I will stop being grumpy now. Once Christmas actually arrives, it should all calm down. And I have a huge whack of leave from work now (until mid Jan 😀)
I’ve enjoyed all your musical recommendations – they’ve been a good tonic. Cheers 🥂
“We can keep topping up your glass for as long as you need us to – we are not controlled by normal licensing rules..”
LaR,
Thanks man. Think I’m gonna need it because if I don’t, I’ll just start bawling in front of all of you. And that’s not a very manly thing to do. Especially in front of all my friends. Good thing like you, I’m off till mid January..
Besides, I can’t be a bawling train-wreck anyway. Lady Friend wouldn’t like that..
“Ill sit with you and we can both “make love” to our mulled wine and brandy.”
Thanks @Adam. You’re a really good friend to take care of my pathetic a$$. I’m glad you’re here..
Lovisa is gonna be mad at me for disclosing. She said awhile ago it would confuse Lady Friend and that’s EXACTLY what it did..
Have I learned nothing in all my time here??
Wtf!! 🤯🤪😉
Btw, can I get a shot of
Corvoisier??
MJ,
Let’s discard outdated old ideas about what’s ‘manly’. How I have wished I could release tears so many times in the last few years at the train wreck of a situation I have created myself with this LE. So man, if you need to turn on the taps, turn them on.
If Snow and I keep topping up your glass, any chance we could persuade you to tell us folks at LwL what’s occurred with LF? I’m a bit worried about you. I’ve been rooting for the pair of you ‘long time’. I really hope you manage to pick your way through this with her.
Courvoisier shot coming right up MJ.
Luckily, Trifles brought us a load of that over from the duty free in 🇫🇷
“I got me another bottle tonight and its predominantly blueberry flavored. So well see.”
@Adam,
Lady Friend loves blueberry flavor.. All that’s missing is her here by the fireplace to share it with me..
Uh-oh, think I feel some anxiety coming..
Bottoms up.. 🍻
Put this NIN limerence anthem on already..
https://youtu.be/4qA_ctiPb6Q
“If Snow and I keep topping up your glass, any chance we could persuade you to tell us folks at LwL what’s occurred with LF? I’m a bit worried about you. I’ve been rooting for the pair of you ‘long time’. I really hope you manage to pick your way through this with her.”
Thanks. I will LaR. There’s just a lot. So I’m trying to condense it down without re-living the whole episode and not getting more bitter.
Her and I are good now, but I know something I didn’t see coming and the catch to this is, she doesn’t know I know..
So onward and downward with the soap opera.. Tis the season to be jolly??
Just gtfo.. 🤣🤣
Top me off please..
LaR,
Yes, lately I seemed to be “over cheerful” while nothing much cheerful in my reality is going on, yet I rarely expect more than what’s available to me. Like I said before, I grew up used to not getting what I wanted. And once I got what I thought I was dying for, I got bored from 3-7 days after obtaining them, including HE degrees. Only a process of pursuing excited and motivated me, I think LE worked this way with me as well… I was worried that I’d get over it or be bored of it, even if ET was an unsuitable LO.
I feel better by pushing myself to ramble — scrabbling of anything lifts my spirit no matter what content I ramble.
Also, listening to some light, lively music, then I’m all peachy, like those three Ketchup girls, except I’m not that young. I literally dance to those Latin rhythm. If there is music, my body becomes itchy to move, worse than my fingers in a good mood. I have little idea why!
I don’t envy those who have to keep up with traditions and “appearance.” In your case, it sounds even harder that you’ll have to deal with difficult family dynamics while celebrating supposedly merry holiday. But you have a long break! Oh, la la! Aren’t you planning a getaway to truly relax your mind? or you’d miss MFF more?
I only did a bit shopping this afternoon because someone else gave me some gifts, so I feel obligated to give some in return, much later than Christmas Day! Well, they’ll have to put up with my insincerity. But I have New Years to send them good wishes — also very superficial. One E-card of “Happy New Year” once a year just can’t connect anyone in a meaningful base. From this perspective, I feel closer to us LwL ghosts, because we all talk about substantial, especially painful, stuff!
It’s getting really late for you again, I’m glad that you’ve enjoyed the time of taking “Latin Splashes” from my synced experiences… probably not a cup of normal tea for most of Northern Europeans, Americans, and definitely not for COO folks. I’d be considered a lunatic if I show them my inside out… I appear so shy! ☺️
Merry Christmas! 🎄
MJ,
I’m listening to— “She does not Know what I know”
Can you elaborate on that?
I’m here to serve… if LaR has dozed off to his SO.
I’m going to have my 2nd mulled wine, getting used to it.
Adam, MJ,
Are you down on the Inn table? I just began my 2nd serve…
Well, no worries. Take a nap or whatsoever, I’m jingling on my own… 🔔
🫂 🫂
MJ,
I’m very glad to hear that you and your lady friend are good now, keep going!
Here is one more Corvoisier drink 🥃 on the house! 🏡
Adam, MJ
My last serve before I go home to hug my 🌲 , the 🎁 I ordered to myself arrived this morning, and the shoes fit! (1 out of 6 pairs)
Is this familiar to you both? —
https://youtu.be/qqXUpe3jlkA?si=02wJgidASif3JJ4h — it’s Raining Men 💃
Merry Christmas to you both!
Thanks for the service tonight @Snow & LaR. It was nice spending time with you and the drinks were especially lovely.
Let’s hope this won’t affect my Christmas day plans..
Enjoying this one for sure right now..
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDnP7cYBZSw/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
Happy Christmas everyone! 🎄
That’s a pleasure MJ. Hope you manage to put it all to one side and have a half decent day.
The Inn will be room of requirement / self service this afternoon. Free bar, beef trifle and sprout smoothies for all. The welder (out there in his barn with his lock) is on standby if it all gets too raucous.
G’day all. Sending my best for the holiday period.
🕊🕯🌄
LaR, i loved this Christmas riddle
“What’s the first thing Adam says on Christmas morning?”
“It’s Christmas, Eve”
Perfect for out friend, Adam and Momma. Adam, I am glad to read that you got a reality check – of course you are a great Dad. Sure, arent you like a kind Dad / kind older brother to every limerent waif that makes it over here?
MJ, a special word for you. Dont let your LF set back put you on the bad path back to LO. You cry it out, if that releases tension, but never under estimate your progress. And you are too hard on yourself. I dont know many people as caring for an older parent over as long a time as you. Dont tell yourself stories that arent true – like you somehow deserved this: no, you didnt. You’re just a good guy who is doing the right thing, repeatedly.
Snow, I hope you feel well. We are all right here, you might say that we are with you in spirit.
Finally to Imho, I feel for you this Christmas, girl, and think you must be in a tricky place. There is nothing as hard and as confusing as LO encouragement. It doesnt materially change things so can be a huge set back. I get this so, so much. Thinking of you here in recovery land. I didnt have the best of weeks myself but I did not contact LO. Happy about that, at least.
To the rest of you guys, Mila, LE, Speedwagon, ABCD, Lovisa, pld and new arrivals, give yourselves a break today, if needed. Take time to breathe and connect with your own thoughts. You may realise that you are content, you may feel that you are not, but both feelings are okay. Its all ephemeral and will pass. Those around you love you. That is a nice thought (even if they are driving you mad!). A few minutes away can be enough to recalibrate (you will find me hiding in the bathroom, at some stage today 😆).
Merry Christmas 🎄 to all, new and old patrons of L ‘Amoor 🛖
MJ: it was fun to bottom up our wine cups 🥂 on Christmas Eve!
Adam, I was in joyful tears to see your 🫂 with your son, please feel proud! How was your trip last night with Momma? Thank you for the recipe of Mulled wine, my first homemade one was delicious although (by mistake) with a doubled brandy that ended up serving as elixir that blasted the Millennium Falcon to the Galaxy… 🌌
Bewitched, I always hold your spirit for protection! No nightmare or even remembered earthly dreams last night!
Trifles: are you soaked in lavish holiday texting with TO? I need your sharp, intelligent smoothies to clear up my wine- mulled head in order to take the evening shift at the Inn.
Mila: How do you keep your holiday conversations “straight” after one serve of mulled wine? Last night, I accepted my “affectionate” lady friend’s invitation to spend the New Year in their (w/ a hubby) vacation home in a well-known island, but may change my mind later; my imagination tends to go unthinkable….
LE: did you have a cozy Christmas Eve with your son? Sorry that your sired lawyer here had to spend an alone Eve at the inn, but he was well fed and had new dumbbells to play with. Maybe later he’d be savvy enough to sway in Rick’s Cafe? We need to dilute his T/legal brain more.
LaR 🕺🏿 , our indispensable barmen 🌲 🫂 — you did such an excellent lockup last night; otherwise, LE’s beloved Welder would have been kidnapped to take the MFfs beyond Galaxy …. He’s safe in the shed, perhaps Bewitched could take him to the Inn for a warm bath?
Have a very joyful 🎄 Day, everyone!
Snow,
Happy Christmas. Hope you are unmulling your brain!
“… ended up serving as elixir that blasted the Millennium Falcon to the Galaxy… 🌌”
Sense check – were we in the real dimension there? As in that’s NC over?
“Aren’t you planning a getaway to truly relax your mind? or you’d miss MFF more?”
We did have about five getaways of different kinds this year. I think what I really need this time is just to sit and do very little! That’s the plan. MFF question – yeah of course. Pretty much a month to hold out – not my favourite prospect ever. But like you said before – though I forget the exact words, so I paraphase – I kind of just have no choice but to ride the train I have put myself on and tough it out 💪
LaR,
Surprisingly, I did not have any hangover (even with little food in stomach) with this stronger mulled wine than regular champagne or wine. It’s so strange! I’ll make more of it, it’s warm and lovely, except its acidity was hard for my stomach. I’ll reduce orange portion next time.
I thought you knew the reference of MFs, which has nothing to do with sending a signal to a black hole. (the neighbor planet does not celebrate Christmas) It resides in every woman’s system. If Qi/blood is moved/pushed/circulated by whatever spirit or means, she takes powerful, delightful MF flights beyond the Galaxy (a nirvana 💫 )
I didn’t realize how long you’ll have to take this winter break (a university system?), I knew how it feels like, gosh, those long 3.5 month summer breaks I had to endure in the throe of my LE and then the 11 month pandemic lockdown. Now, there is NO end for this permanent NC, yet my F brain can’t truly accept it — in delusion/denial.
Yes, you’ll have to sit through your trail, perhaps with good readings, workouts, journaling, Netflix binge, time with SO and close friends…. But it will be REALLY hard, our LE mind was distracted and always pulled towards LO/MFF. I’m used to being alone wrapped in my busy mind, but it might be harder for you. But you could always come here to serve L ‘Amoor.
With so many holiday texting flooding in and out, I could barely finish this post…
@Bewitched,
G’day back and thanks for your seasonal wishes to the LwL gang and for thinking of me. Yes it’s difficult, especially as most everyone here seems to be in good spirits and coming through their LEs mostly.
It’s made worse as he is close-by geographically and I want to see him before he goes home. But that won’t happen.
He is probably thinking the same too – but let’s not ruminate on that one !
C’est la vie! The new year will probably help after we come through this week.
Good for you coming through this week with NC, as I know you also get sentimental over this period too.
I hope you took some nice wine and chocolate when you hid in the bathroom!
“You’re just a good guy who is doing the right thing, repeatedly.”
@Bewitched,
I want to write how thoughtful your post was and I really appreciate your words. I got emotional reading them. My holiday was pretty much crap, so it means the world to me, to have people like you and this caring community to vent to.
You provide me with support that is probably unmatched by anyone, so I thank you and I am eternally grateful..
Our oldest son is home and hes actually asking me relationship questions. He told me I always provided. And if it werent for me hed not know how to handle his relationships. He said I was always there for him and his brother and Im almost it tears. How do you look at your 21 year old son when he says that?
I think just to let tears come down a little and give your son tighter hugs… 🫂 (I don’t know how a father would talk with his adult sons..)
Do you sometimes have deep, loving chitchats with your sons, without crossing the blurring line of prying?
@Adam,
Sometimes you just have to enjoy the surprise and thank him for being a good Son.
I actually broke down to my Boy a few weeks ago, highlighting some LO and Lady Friend stuff. I don’t tell him a lot, but I know he gives me a better perspective sometimes.
Hope you and the Family have a nice Christmas.. Talk to you soon.. 🤜🏻🤛🏻
He asked me if I would go on a walk with him. A bit cold out but I agreed. Got on my coat and made a drink and went walking with him. (No worries LE I didn’t fall and break another part of my body again.)
Apparently my son, his roommate and said roommates lady friend got into some soap opera love triangle and it sounds like well…..let’s say I couldn’t say much to him. He told me this on Christmas Eve.
I, like MJ, did confess a bit more detail about my “event” without actually mentioning limerence. Which of course made me sound like even more of an a$$hole, but hey being the bad guy is something I can live with.
I told him that the only thing left, after an apology to his lady friend and his roommate , is to give them time. You can’t force forgiveness and you have to be prepared that they may never forget. I told him it’s been nearly four years since your mother came at me, and I know she still hasn’t and probably never will forget. And that’s her right to do so.
And I told him, you also have to find out WHY this happened. There’s a reason for everything. What compelled you to do this? I explained (not too heavily in detail) why I know it happened to me. I said that is how you can protect yourself from it happening again. Either with her again or someone else.
I repeated something I told him back when his, now ex, lady friend of two plus years dumped him in a text; you can choose who you want to love for life, but you don’t get to choose who you will love in life. What you do about that in life is what makes you, you.
I said someone I know online (L.E.) that told me that you have to be ready if the other party circles back around for round 2. I was honest; I said if she came back into my life it would be the hardest thing I feel like I’d ever have to handle in life. God will not tempt you beyond what you can bear? Well let’s just not find out if that is true or not.
I hope I did okay. Didn’t think I have to have a father/son talk about “the other woman”.
Talks like those about “the other woman” and owning up to personal shortcomings are what good father’s do.
Some of the most important things my wife and I hope to have imparted to the kids are:
– Respect one another
– At any given time, one of us may have to carry more load than the other
– You don’t keep score
As far as your son’s situation goes, things can take really odd turns.
Back in the 80s, I served with a guy whose really good friend was a guy I knew in training. The guy’s girlfriend was visiting. The guy’s sub got unexpectedly ordered to sea and the guy asked my shipmate to entertain his girlfriend.
Long story ending, my shipmate and the guy’s girlfriend got together. 35 years and 2 kids later, they still are.
Oh, and if the opportunity comes up again, toss in a hug. It just might be something he remembers forever.
L.E.
Yeah those are all good points to hope our children carry with them into adulthood.
The other one I might add is …
– Don’t be silent about unmet needs in a relationship. It’s a silent killer.
I think he has at least made the immediate amends with both parties. He never said whether things got out of hand because of her or him. But I asked rhetorically out loud (as he was late) “Where the hell is he?” To which my wife tracked his phone and said “He’s at (lady friend’s) house. So it seems they are least talking still.
He took a selfie of both of us together. Him looking like someone you’d find in a mosh pit or goth concert. And then his old man dressed like he’s going to the opera. We went and ran some errands together as it is getting harder for me to drive at night. We looked like quite the odd couple.
I think I am Felix and he’s Oscar.
@Adam,
Sounds like it turned out in your favor. I say keep the communication open like that to stay in good standing with one another. My Son sometimes keeps me in check with regards in the way I handle things with my Ex and Daughter. Sometimes giving me the deeper scoop on things so I don’t snap on them, like I’m so prone to doing. And will if I am in a place where I don’t care who thinks what.
This Christmas it was another soap opera at home again and everything just went to hell-in-a-handbasket fast. I won’t go into detail, but let’s just say the way things worked out, I ended up having Christmas dinner by my absolute lone self. Yes it really was that pathetic and it’s not because MJ was being an a$$. My Ex showed up and we were really actually civil, but everyone in the family has another life now and I’m simply not a part of it. We opened gifts and everyone went their merry way.
It’s a real eye opener when $#!+ hits the fan and what you have left is straight garbage. I suppose I’ll always carry a huge level of guilt for being the sex craved philanderer I became. So this limerence $#!+ is probably retribution as far as I’m concerned..
Like Johnny Cash says,,
https://youtu.be/zVsNQOJsKmo
Hi everybody,
I hope everyone is having a lovely Christmas! (And that this next post isn’t a downer on the Christmas spirit)
I’ve never posted on here before but all the replies are so positive and lovely it seems like a safe space! Hopefully I am posting about the right subject in the right blog!
I’m struggling quite a bit with limerence at the moment – I’ve been in and out of it for the last year and a half and only recently realised this is what it is. Usually it’s manageable and doesn’t get in the way too much but recently I’ve spent a lot of one on one time with the LO so am having an unfortunate flare up which is getting in the way of enjoying Christmas…am looking for some advice!
I was not the one who pursued the friendship at first and my friend made a big effort to pursue it and recently we have spent a lot of time one on one together. I can’t get him out of my head but also can’t say no to him. He definitely has control of the friendship. He isn’t in a relationship himself. I know that he has a huge amount of affection for me and considers me one of his closest friends, and is perhaps a bit lonely so likes how much fun we have together. I feel like we are drawn to each other like a magnet and that it is mutual, but romantic feelings are just on my side, due to his sexuality, which would tend to be a deal breaker… I am also in a hugely loving long term relationship and am confused by this obsession.
Irritatingly, I am also very picky so it’s annoying that I seem to have met someone I have such a laugh with but also who ticks all the attractiveness boxes.
The thing is that I feel so close to him by this point that I’d feel major grief stopping the relationship.
It sounds odd maybe but I almost wish he was my brother so that I could have a guarantee of his company without any of the pain and tension that comes with the sexual uncertainty.
Has anyone managed to change limerence feelings and retain a loving friendship? Is it possible, do you think, for it to fade with time, leaving only the friendship?
Thanks so much for reading all this!
Welcome SurprisedLimerent,
I’m unclear with your situation: 1. Your friend is gay, you straight? 2. He’s straight, you’re gay? 3. He’s single, you have SO?
Everyone’s LE is different here, the “treatment” varies. It also depends on how much you want LE/friendship free…
Try to enjoy this holiday in whatever manageable ways…
Hello Surprisedlimerent, and a warm welcome.
Feel free to offload here. People on lwl are very understanding. Some of the recent comments here are a bit wild with holiday glee/drinks but please don’t let that put you off !
I’m still struggling with limerence so you are certainly not alone.
I think it maybe common to connect with someone else with a different sexual leaning, as you feel safe, your guard is down and you connect so easily and deeply. But then wham, one day it’s different for you but not them.
In answer to your question
“Has anyone managed to change limerence feelings and retain a loving friendship”
The answer I have learned from others on lwl is that it is difficult but possible, but only if you were truly platonic friends before the limerence.
I hope others can comment here too.
I also tried to imagine my LO as my brother at one time because I so wanted him to stay in my life always, but I was deluding myself on this one.
Feel free to keep sharing
Thanks both of you for your comments! 🙂 ha, especially as I didn’t want to rain on anyone’s parade in the holidays!
Snow phoenix, he’s gay and I’m straight. I have a SO and he doesn’t.
I think you’re absolutely right, Imho, about feeling safe connecting with someone with a different sexual leaning. And what makes it more complicated is that person can be as flirty as they like and doesn’t realise the effect it has.
The limerence hit me so soon after we met, that isn’t a good sign from the sounds of it…and I’ve made a list of all his flaws but unfortunately they’re just making him seem more human and attractive than putting me off!
It’s interesting you also imagined your LO as your brother. When you say you were deluding yourself, is that because he did end up leaving your life or just simply because trying to see him like a brother didn’t work?
I can sympathize because I’ve been limerent for a gay friend. I’m married so it wasn’t like I was alone, but he’s been single all this time, so occasionally over the years I get that “if only I were single and 15 years younger!” thought…. Then every now and then he posts a thirsty pic to Instagram and I think, Dang it! lol But it’s helpful that because he prefers men, I know nothing is going to *happen.*
Hi SurprisedLimerent,
I also struggled and still do on listing out flaws.
And if your limerence hit early (probably after a glimmer experience I’m guessing) then yes, it may be hard.
In answer to your question, it’s this :-
“because trying to see him like a brother didn’t work”
Your physical symptoms when you hear from him kinda let you know the truth; heart racing etc.
I guess those feelings could change over time, and if we truly can come out of the LE. I’m personally not there yet.
And I had a crush on a wonderful gay man once but thankfully it wasn’t limerence and he was only in my life for a few weeks.
@Surprised
I can’t speak from experience here. But I wonder if – even though it doesn’t remove your limerence – his being gay could eventually peel a few layers off the onion and give you two a better chance of a platonic friendship? This as compares to the same scenario but with a straight person who would always be at least a hypothetical relationship prospect.
How ridiculous does the idea sound of confronting him with how you feel, saying you really value his friendship, and then trying to renegotiate some boundaries to help you with it? I appreciate your answer may be a big ‘no’ but I thought I’d at least throw out the possibility.
Hi old friends! I wanted to drop back in and say hi to everyone and give a little update on my life. I chose today because it’s the two year anniversary of my disclosure conversation with LO. If I had it to do over, I’m honestly not sure if I’d do it again or not… but obviously it doesn’t matter because it happened and, as we all know well, disclosure can’t be undone.
Everything’s been going pretty well in LiS land. I’m still happily married, still employed, my SO has been really happy and healthy and our relationship has been really warm and close and nice. My kids are all thriving and happy too. Work is going well, I’m staying fit and healthy and am enjoying life in lots of ways.
I’m also still very much in a relationship with LO. We talk on the phone almost every day now, usually just for 20 minutes or so at the end of the day between when she leaves work and when she picks up her kids. Sometimes we get to talk longer, sometimes we text back and forth through the day, sometimes not so much. We still take a break from each other on weekends and in the evenings when we’re home. We see each other in passing in the office maybe once or twice a day and usually share a few friendly words and a smile and some brief eye contact. We’re still very rarely alone together and have still never had any physical contact beyond the occasional hug or brief touch on the arm. I help her with her school a lot – we have study sessions for her exams over the phone and I help her with her papers and presentations and stuff, and encourage her when she feels like she just can’t do it anymore. I like working on her schoolwork with her, it feels like we’re a team working on something that’s important to both of us. She’s still working hard on her mental health and continuing with her therapist and her DBT group weekly and I try to be as encouraging and supportive as possible. Our interactions are really warm and caring and we’ve also gotten a lot better at communicating and haven’t had any of the painful hot/cold cycles in quite awhile now (although I still start feeling anxious anytime I don’t hear from her for a day)
So basically I feel like everything about our relationship is really good, except for the inconvenient little fact that it’s built on deceit and is therefore horribly wrong and potentially destructive. I have my moments every day where I feel really good about my life and about my relationships with both SO and LO, and I have moments every day where I feel horribly guilty and wonder what the hell I’m doing. Sometimes I start wondering about the future and how everything will eventually end up, but usually I just focus on the day to day. I live a very compartmentalized life.
I was talking with LO the other day about how it’s been two years now. I asked her, since I know now that she generally is very anxious and very cautious about doing anything new, how on earth she worked up the courage to start visiting me in my office and then start texting me. I asked her if it was something that she just did impulsively one day or if it was more like she’d had to work up her courage over time, composing lots of texts and deleting them for weeks or months before she finally got herself to hit send. She chuckled and said “oh, it took several YEARS”. Several years of her thinking about me and wanting to get close to me before finally sending that first text. Damn.
I’ve come to realize that not only is ours a case of mutual limerence, it’s also a shared rescue fantasy. Like a lot of the guys here, I’ve always had fantasies about rescuing her from her hard life and making everything better for her with my love. I’ve come to realize that she indulges in fantasies too about being rescued by me, and probably has been doing that for years. But we both know and agree it can’t ever happen like that for real, so we engage in the “rescue fantasy lite” where I try to help her with her school and her self esteem and her life in whatever little ways I can while we keep our boundaries up and keeping our real lives largely separate.
Anyway, that’s my life at this time. I know it’s not morally right and I know I haven’t made the best choices but it’s my reality now and I’m doing the best I can with it.
Happy holidays everyone 😁
Hi Lost in Space,
good to hear from you!
You disclosed on Christmas Eve? Wow,it’s a very fraught day of the year, isn’t it. Was it face to face or in the phone? (Sorry for being nosy, just wondering since I wouldn’t have any time at all for conversations of that sort on this day😆)
Will you have contact during holidays?
I’m glad that all is going well and everyone is happy so far! I still hope for the happy ending of her achieving to get a great job elsewhere and moving away, and you parting with sad but good feelings about having helped her, but also both and your SO being free of this difficult situation..
Merry Christmas and happy new year to you and your family!
Hi Mila! It was the day before Christmas Eve, on the last day of work before the holiday. I think the upcoming holiday was what pushed me to do it that day – I couldn’t stand the thought of not seeing her for the next several days and felt like I just had to tell her RIGHT NOW. In the moment it just felt so urgent and so necessary. It took place over the phone – I told her how I felt about her, and then asked her if she felt the same about me. It felt great for a few minutes and then it felt terrible because we both immediately realized what a heavy thing we’d just done and that now we could never go back to just innocently talking all the time “as friends” and our only choices were to separate ourselves or to continue but with the feelings known. Of course we both immediately said that we had to stop talking and do the right thing (the first of many times we told ourselves that) and so then I went through the Christmas holiday feeling dazed and depressed.
Looking back on the first weeks after disclosure, I am so grateful that we didn’t just decide to throw everything away and plunge into a crazy full blown affair. It felt right on the edge of that many times. Now every time I see my SO I feel so fortunate to still be with her and still have our marriage; every time I spend a lazy Saturday morning at home playing with the kids I feel so grateful that we’re all still together and our family is still intact. Everything really did hang on a razor’s edge back then, right on the verge of spiraling out of control.
Hi LiS
thanks for sharing!
I see, and also how Christmas time is related to thoughts about LO.
I‘m quite safely out of my LE and hope very much not to slide into another one, although I feel the pull now and then.
When I look back I can still cherish moments of past LEs , like the disclosure in my first LE that was also very memorable moment on the other side of the planet.. I can look back with fondness and the feeling that despite all the pain and bad consciences LEs enriched my life, but I don’t want it all over again, please.
I wish for you that it’ll all solve itself well for you and that you can look back with fondness and thankfulness some time in the future, too.
Hi LiS,
Happy holiday to you, the family and of course LO.. Nice to see you are still somehow managing the best of both worlds..
Must be nice.. 🤔😅😂
Talk to you soon Brother..
If money was no object and I didn’t care if I turned a profit, I’d start a bar catering to baby boomers. I’d call it “Boomers.”
The slogan would be, “If you were born after June, 1964, you might be legal but you’re still too young.”
LE,
a red-hair for you — https://youtu.be/G6OYDUomYwI?si=j0_6es16NhZwqd7M — Cambio Dolor
Snow and all L’Amoors patrons.
I have messed about with it some more, as requested, and added a verse or two to bring us up to date. I’d be prepared to put on my tux and perform it tonight at the open mic. I’ll go after the welder does his bit.
If you’d like a verse and aren’t here yet, we can do that. Let us know.
“Sing us a song, oh the Amoor gang (bang)”, by Trifles, Snow and LaR, for our patrons:
“It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday,
The regular crowd shuffles in,
There’s a young man, Adam, sittin’ next to me,
making love to his OJ and gin.
He says “it’s been many years of this silliness,
and I’m starting to know that it’s dumb,
but Lovisa she looks just like Terri Clark,
and she treats me a bit like my Mum”
LaR at the bar gives a wink to me,
Says “Don’t worry ’bout the welder no more”,
“He had to take a trip,
It’s just a small blip,
Now how do you make that rum drink to pour?”
[“You just stick in the ice,
Forget the measures, add a slice!
Grab the rum and then pour,
That’s how we roll at L’Amoor,
While the welder howls ‘cross the moor”]
(Singing) La-LaR-di-dee-da,
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
LaR at the bar he’s a friend of mine,
Who’s getting me my drinks for free,
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke,
(“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be.
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”,
As the smile ran away from his face,
“We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles (apart from the fact the welder wants to eat them),
I should kick you out of this place”
Now L.E. a retired, red-hair-fetish submariner,
Who enjoys crazy smooching with his wife,
Is talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
(“Where is my besodden welder?”)
They’re both having the time of their life!
And MJ, an old-hand at this limerence thing,
Who’s looking for a younger wife,
And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla,
But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is swinging her “voodoo” philosophical dances (of both the East and West)
As the limerents slowly get stoned,
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness,
But it’s much better than drinkin’ alone
Oh La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To pay homage to Snow,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday,
And ABCD throws me a smile,
‘Cause we’re all on this scene,
to see DrL’s face on screen,
To forget about cold-n-hot LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival,
And the bearded welder smells like mulled beer,
And we sit at the bar,
and give a toast to LaR,
And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?”
The welder, he’s been offered shaving cream,
But he says “that’s got me in stitches”
On beef trifles he chows,
in the barn with the (snow covered) ploughs,
While he puts the titanium lock on his britches.
[I see this song as a massive drunk roar,
As everyone staggers home across the moor,
While paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle,
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)]
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
Snow’s OCD is drivin’ her rambling tongue,
that feasts on beef trifle at noon,
she heads for the door,
to a preaching outside L’Amoor
On a sunny Saturday afternoon.
As we age, we’re baffled at something,
How has red-skirted Imho gone missing??
But suddenly shouts Snow,
“Oh, wouldn’t you know!,
She and the welder are in the corner a-kissing!”
(And our beloved Bewitched, shrieked
“Hands-off, he’s Mine,
but think about all that reading he’s missing”)
Now, Mila is back to texting with her LO,
Though she declares no remaining limerent aches,
And we‘ll see how it’ll go,
face to face after a winter’s Moon show,
When he samples some of her bakes.
She hopes for amiable, friendly contact,
No getting irked or distant again,
She heads round and ‘round,
The lim-merry-go-ground,
Drinking German mulled to numb the pain.
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
Trifles – a whizz with the blowtorch –
No puzzle’s too clever for her,
On the farm, at the inn,
Purposefully naive livin’,
And sings “wasn’t it fun to transfer?”
A non-native shy bird from the Far East,
Snow bends her ignorant wings of fire,
While she dances to “She Bangs”,
She asks “why’s my black hair so dang?”
While her naive eyes catch L ’Amoor banging to Apollo’s lyre
(And her red heels kick the lawyer’s briefcase into the fire)
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
(To give cheers to DrL)
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To pay homage to Snow,
And spread Amazon warrior vibes.
Oh Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposeful naive livin’ for life (we ❤️ DrL)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
After the Dawn
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum
Chorus 🎶
It’s fun, it’s thrillin’ to transfer,
(LO to TO, and TO to LO)
round and ‘round we go on the moor,
Merrily we spin,
Purposefully Naive Livin’,
In sparkly splashing L ’Amoor.
Stop stalking LO on a social screen,
Stop sending them the LE oozed vibration,
Get up off the ground,
Jump on the merry go round!
And spread love in this amoor-infused nation.
la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
— Trifles 🥖 LaR 🍹, ❄️ 🐦🔥
December 24, 2024
Nice one, Lim-a-Rant!
I wish you and all limerents happy holidays!!
(just want to remark: my XLO surely won’t sample any bakes from me next month. He‘s lucky if he gets a coffee.)
I thought those were drunk posts from yesterday but apparently the festive mood continues!
And oh my! I’ll give credit where it’s due – bravo! 💯 (If there’s one thing I’ve learned is not to leave a limerent hanging.) That’s going to be one long performance! Soon it’s going to be an opera.
I wish all limerents and recovering limerents joyous and relaxed holidays!
Er … yeah Trifles, your intuition wasn’t wrong there about the involvement of a little bit of ‘Christmas spirit’ in my evening/morning. What can I say – a lawyer’s sometimes gotta let off steam. I had the Latin American party in the small hours in the end.
Glad my additions have been approved. Mila, surely you can spare xLO a slither of brownie??
NO!
🙂
Careful with that ‘drunk cake’! 😉
I’m not sure whether you’re joking about that profession or not but for synchronicity’s sake let’s say you’re not. You’ll never guess my texting buddy’s profession… (and no need to do so here).
It’s good to let off some steam every now and then in any case.
Trifles,
Oh, man! Are your texting body also a lawyer (or a welder)? 😳
L.E.
You’re so loving to sire welder as well lawyer for our L ‘Amour 👏 We’ll send you more red-hair 👩🦰 roar!
Snow,
For the record, both The Welder and The Lawyer arrived on the scene seeking shelter from the zombie apocalypse.
They ended up in a Fellini movie…
LE,
You’re pushing my button of humanity, huh❓
So the Welder and the Lawyer escaped zombie apocalypse, dragged their feet on “The Road” and after “81/2” weeks arrived at a Fellini’s house on “Nights of Cabiria”? Which house? The house of “La Dolce Vita”, or of “Casanova”, or of “La Citta Della Doone”?
Or are you hinting that L ‘Amoor already has such a corner or we need to set up such a house up DrL’s Tardis?
Let’s examine the possibilities:
1. To set up a house of “Casanova” is impossible, most limerents are obsessed with ONLY one LO at a time thus incapable of functioning like a Casanova, who is usually half-bone Casanova and half culturally conditioned. If having childhood traumas or attachment issues, she or he will swing between being a half Casanova in body and half limerent in mind/heart.
2. The house of “La Lolce Vita” is unlikely since every limerent here is driven hot-n-cold, high-n-low, ‘round and ‘round the clock, no sustained sweetness! The Welder and the Lawyer would be lucky if none of limerents, out of frustration and jealousy pains, kick their ⚽️ ⚽️ . Now, you understand why the smart Welder asked for a titanium lock for his metallic britches? The Lawyer does not need one yet, they have been hidden in his 🧠.
With you and other enthusiastic male patrons, the L ‘Amoor is even less of “La Citta Della Doone”. The founder are LaR and Trifles who “secretly” turned DrL’s coffeehouse into a bar, I stepped in as a “third leg” merely to keep their EA lukewarm constantly. Their EA/TA already burned down the wall of L ‘Amoor once when none of us was watching….
So which Fellini’s “house” is in your mind? Let’s see if we could set up a corner for your Welder and Lawyer. One challenge is that after the mulled wine party on Christmas Eve, no one could remember the digit combination of Welder’s lock, which LE-lady would take him, regardless he’s been clean shaved, mouth washed, and body cologned.
The challenge with lawyer is even bigger — how to unlock a T brain to release his ⚽️ ⚽️ to his tailored britches❓❓
I’m pondering whether I should make the other half bottle to mulled wine.🍷
Typo: “usually half-born Casanova…”
Actually, Snow,
I’ve never seen a Fellini movie. I just remember reading something about “Satyricon” that I read in Playboy when I was in HS.
According to Wiki, “Personal and highly idiosyncratic visions of society, Fellini’s films are a unique combination of memory, dreams, fantasy and desire.”
That seems to describe the Inn pretty well.
I could have put them in a Hermann Hesse novel but no loving father would do that to their child.
The Welder and The Lawyer – an update
I grow increasingly concerned about the presence of these two individuals around LwL town / L’Amoors / the surrounding moors. I feel I should update the patrons.
‘The Welder’
We now have him contained under titanium lock. Now that the mulled wine fog has cleared, I can remember the padlock combination. Should any LwL lady require his britches to be unlocked, they can of course pop into the Inn and ask me for the combination (though I’m aware that could ‘ruin the moment’ for them a bit). I actually feel we are being a bit unkind to the guy keeping him in this state, now he is all freshened up and behaving himself as requested. But for the matter of public record, it was him who burned the hole in the bar wall, not me. I was on an announced weekend off at the time and he was trying to impress Trifles by showing off about how he’d used his blowtorch to survive the apocalypse. Accidents can happen in those sort of circumstances.
‘The Lawyer’
This guy concerns me more now, hanging around dark corners of the inn, watching, making notes and judging. Can one of the patrons please find out what he is up to? Snow, I know you destroyed his briefcase and yet still you say he hints at wanting to spend time with you in the pool. What are his motives??
Is this whole thing just L.E. being concerned about this community becoming too raucous during December (we did misbehave quite badly at times) and sending his lineage in to keep an eye on us / take notes / prepare the lawsuit on behalf of DrL and the coffeehouse management?
L.E., Fellini’s La Dolce Vita meets Monty Python, complete with soundtrack!
LE,
“According to Wiki, “Personal and highly idiosyncratic visions of society, Fellini’s films are a unique combination of memory, dreams, fantasy and desire.”
His films are really hard to stomach. In my gradual school with an intention to explore the western culture in its diverse colors, I watched a few of them. The scenes are so dream like, extremely abstract. When I reached Satyricon, I stopped.
Don’t you think it Fellini’s films also captures a lot of mental states of LE?
You’re right that in the Inn, we invisibly show/describe/perform our idiosyncratic LE states; then we imagine scenes in our individual canvas… might be as far from the realities as Venus from Mars or Saturns…
LaR,
“I grow increasingly concerned about the presence of these two individuals around LwL town / L’Amoors / the surrounding moors. I feel I should update the patrons.”
Don’t underestimate the power of LwL and its Tardis, L’Amoors; they can be addictive to creative minds, soothe suffering souls, uplift some drowning spirits, and perhaps can help self-reinvent/self-renew personalities in a long run…
Even if the Welder is fresher up and you now remember the padlock’s combination, I think we should observe him for a little longer unless some ladies are eager to take him. His wild nature can’t be tamed over a couple of nights… the Tardis has its magic to polish and transform.
Yes, The Lawyer’s creepy behavior is indeed worrisome. That’s why we need to offer him more 🥃 and push him into the perfumed pool (that also could wash off the ink of his notes); then perhaps his T 🧠 can relax and hopefully soon or later release his ⚽️ ⚽️ to his tailored britches. After surviving the zombie apocalypse, he secretly desires to mingle more with ladies but could not quite locate and activate his F 🧠 .
Why did LE sire those two? Or he still hides more to come?
Just woke up with an annoying and frustrating dream 🥺 in which I had to deal with ET’s henpecked behavior and his henpecking SO .… ❄️ 🧠 🔨
Bewitched: could you please give the Welder all his missed reading to make up? he listened best to soothing your whispers…
Imho: When Italian feel sad/blue, what do they do? They sing opera arias! That’s what some of us L’Amoors patrons are doing — Acting out “ups” to beat our collective or individual LE “downs” !! 🗣️ 🎼 🎶 🎵
Typo: “your soothing whispers” ❄️🧠🔨
“Drunkenly roaring” in 🔥 ink does help make my “limerence hanging” less and less, just a little bit but firm, in each morning (I examined it carefully as soon as I wake up). It somehow pulls my mind and spirit a step away from the residual LE hangover.
I believe any form of creativity, even just to lament humanistic “pains”, is the most powerful antidote for any behavioral addictions.
Thank you, L ‘Amoor patrons, for your “visits” and cheering support!
LaR,
👏👏👏 👏👏👏 💯✅.
The poor LE sired 🧑🏭 finally gets a 🏮 to stitch the steel lock on…. 🤫😂
Trifles,
Let’s tiptoe to our limerents’ genius, intoxicated roar
Let Apollo and his 9 muses singin’ in our tumbling limerence….
Let’s keep our fire-infused pen ✍️ banging
Let’s banish that bloody 🩸 limerencing hanging…
We’ll continue our lyre to wish you all a merry, peaceful Eve…
Sing us a song, oh the Amoor gang (bang)”
—Trifles, Snowphoenix and LaR
“It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday,
The regular crowd shuffles in,
There’s a young man, Adam, sittin’ next to me,
making love to his OJ and gin.
He says “it’s been many years of this silliness,
and I’m starting to know that it’s dumb,
but Lovisa she looks just like Terri Clark,
and she treats me a bit like my Mum”
LaR at the bar gives a wink to me,
Says “Don’t worry ’bout the welder no more”,
“He had to take a trip,
It’s just a small blip,
Now how do you make that rum drink to pour?”
[“You just stick in the ice,
Forget the measures, add a slice!
Grab the rum and then pour,
That’s how we roll at L’Amoor,
While the welder howls ‘cross the moor”]
(Singing) La-LaR-di-dee-da,
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
LaR at the bar he’s a friend of mine,
Who’s getting me my drinks for free,
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke,
(“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be.
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”,
As the smile ran away from his face,
“We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles (apart from the fact the welder wants to eat them),
I should kick you out of this place”
Now L.E. a retired, red-hair-fetish submariner,
Who enjoys crazy smooching with his wife,
Is talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
(“Where is my besodden welder?”)
They’re both having the time of their life!
And MJ, an old-hand at this limerence thing,
Who’s looking for a younger wife,
And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla,
But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is swinging her “voodoo” philosophical dances (of both the East and West)
As the limerents slowly get stoned,
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness,
But it’s much better than drinkin’ alone
Oh La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To pay homage to Snow,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday,
And ABCD throws me a smile,
‘Cause we’re all on this scene,
to see DrL’s face on screen,
To forget about cold-n-hot LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival,
And the bearded welder smells like mulled beer,
And we sit at the bar,
and give a toast to LaR,
And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?”
The welder, he’s been offered shaving cream,
But he says “that’s got me in stitches”
On beef trifles he chows,
in the barn with the (snow covered) ploughs,
While he puts the titanium lock on his britches.
[I see this song as a massive drunk roar,
As everyone staggers home across the moor,
While paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle,
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)]
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
Snow’s OCD is drivin’ her rambling tongue,
that feasts on beef trifle at noon,
she heads for the door,
to a preaching outside L’Amoor
On a sunny Saturday afternoon.
As we age, we’re baffled at something,
How has red-skirted Imho gone missing??
But suddenly shouts Snow,
“Oh, wouldn’t you know!,
She and the welder are in the corner a-kissing!”
(And our beloved Bewitched, shrieked
“Hands-off, he’s Mine,
but think about all that reading he’s missing”)
Now, Mila is back to texting with her LO,
Though she declares no remaining limerent aches,
And we‘ll see how it’ll go,
face to face after a winter’s Moon show,
When he samples some of her bakes.
She hopes for amiable, friendly contact,
No getting irked or distant again,
She heads round and ‘round,
The lim-merry-go-ground,
Drinking German mulled to numb the pain.
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
Trifles – a whizz with the blowtorch –
No puzzle’s too clever for her,
On the farm, at the inn,
Purposefully naive livin’,
And sings “wasn’t it fun to transfer?”
A non-native shy bird from the Far East,
Snow bends her ignorant wings of fire,
While she dances to “She Bangs”,
She asks “why’s my black hair so dang?”
While her naive eyes catch L ’Amoor banging to Apollo’s lyre
(And her red heels kick the lawyer’s briefcase into the fire)
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
(To give cheers to DrL)
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To pay homage to Snow,
And spread Amazon warrior vibes.
Oh Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposeful naive livin’ for life (we ❤️ DrL)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
After the Dawn
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum
Chorus 🎶
It’s fun, it’s thrillin’ to transfer,
(LO to TO, and TO to LO)
round and ‘round we go on the moor,
Merrily we spin,
Purposefully Naive Livin’,
In sparkly splashing L ’Amoor.
Stop stalking LO on a social screen,
Stop sending them the LE oozed vibration,
Get up off the ground,
Jump on the merry go round!
And spread love in this amoor-infused nation.
Let’s sway and swing our limerents’ love-infatuated roar
Let Apollo and his nine muses singin’ in our intoxicated L ’Amoor ….
Let’s keep our fire-infused pens and heels banging
Let’s banish that bloody irking limerence hanging…
la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
— Trifles 🥖 LaR 🍹, ❄️ 🐦🔥
December 24, 2024
Trifles,
I’ll just roll with it profession wise for the sake of syncronicity. Snow is utterly convinced! Next she’ll think I’m related to L.E.
Snow,
I have lost track of what you want me to do about the welder and the ‘other’ lawyer. Do you think they both have gLO’s among the LwL ladies??
LaR,
It’s holiday after all!
L.E.’s Welder and other lawyer are evasive, but deserving some “Red and Black” (Stendhal, 1997 TV movie version, quite touching) ink; more fun if they have gLO among us LwL ladies… Ask L.E. about their traces…
To arose imagination in others and oneself is fun, inspiring, and remedial to any suffering souls… as long as our ink is full of compassion, empathy, and humor… absolutely salt-free!
LaR,
Now, I think (instinctively feel) that both Welder and Lawyer have a gLO in the moor, because they keep (L.E. already reminded us so) hanging in or returning to L ‘Amoor… to snatch our patrons’ attention… 🤔
Maybe they are former patrons?
We know more of the welder’s motives (tends to want to ‘work the room’ more than stick to one gLO, but knows not to bother you or Mila).
The lawyer is more mysterious. L.E., why have you planted him here, and why does he stay around even though his briefcase got burned?
Welder is willing to put up Christmas trees and ornament for single Limer Moms here , if getting paid $200-250.
We need to see more French Trifle and Germen mulled wine …
I’m shopping in a reality store right now, looking for some dump bells for the lawyer who has no briefcase to hold onto now… I think he wants to sway in the dancing pool this Eve. 🧐
Typo: need to sell more French…
Sing Us a Song, Oh the Amoor Gang (Bang)”
—Trifles, Snowphoenix and LaR
“It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday,
The regular crowd shuffles in,
There’s a young man, Adam, sittin’ next to me,
making love to his OJ and gin.
He says “it’s been many years of this silliness,
and I’m starting to know that it’s dumb,
but Lovisa she looks just like Terri Clark,
and she treats me a bit like my Mum”
LaR at the bar gives a wink to me,
Says “Don’t worry ’bout the welder no more”,
“He had to take a trip,
It’s just a small blip,
Now how do you make that rum drink to pour?”
[“You just stick in the ice,
Forget the measures, add a slice!
Grab the rum and then pour,
That’s how we roll at L’Amoor,
While the welder howls ‘cross the moor”]
(Singing) La-LaR-di-dee-da,
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
LaR at the bar he’s a friend of mine,
Who’s getting me my drinks for free,
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke,
(“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be.
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”,
As the smile ran away from his face,
“We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles (apart from the fact the welder wants to eat them),
I should kick you out of this place”
Now L.E. a retired, red-hair-fetish submariner,
Who enjoys crazy smooching with his wife,
Is talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
(“Where is my besodden welder?”)
They’re both having the time of their life!
And MJ, an old-hand at this limerence thing,
Who’s looking for a younger wife,
And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla,
But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is swinging her “voodoo” philosophical dances (of both the East and West)
As the limerents slowly get stoned,
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness,
But it’s much better than drinkin’ alone
Oh La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To pay homage to Snow,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday,
And ABCD throws me a smile,
‘Cause we’re all on this scene,
to see DrL’s face on screen,
To forget about cold-n-hot LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival,
And the bearded welder smells like mulled beer,
And we sit at the bar,
and give a toast to LaR,
And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?”
The welder, he’s been offered shaving cream,
But he says “that’s got me in stitches”
On beef trifles he chows,
in the barn with the (snow covered) ploughs,
While he puts the titanium lock on his britches.
[I see this song as a massive drunk roar,
As everyone staggers home across the moor,
While paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle,
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)]
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
Snow’s OCD is drivin’ her rambling tongue,
that feasts on beef trifle at noon,
she heads for the door,
to a preaching outside L’Amoor
On a sunny Saturday afternoon.
As we age, we’re baffled at something,
How has red-skirted Imho gone missing??
But suddenly shouts Snow,
“Oh, wouldn’t you know!,
She and the welder are in the corner a-kissing!”
(And our beloved Bewitched, shrieked
“Hands-off, he’s Mine,
but think about all that reading he’s missing”)
Now, Mila is back to texting with her LO,
Though she declares no remaining limerent aches,
And we‘ll see how it’ll go,
face to face after a winter’s Moon show,
When he samples some of her bakes.
She hopes for amiable, friendly contact,
No getting irked or distant again,
She heads round and ‘round,
The lim-merry-go-ground,
Drinking German mulled to numb the pain.
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
Trifles – a whizz with the blowtorch –
No puzzle’s too clever for her,
On the farm, at the inn,
Purposefully naive livin’,
And sings “wasn’t it fun to transfer?”
A non-native shy bird from the Far East,
Snow bends her ignorant wings of fire,
While she dances to “She Bangs”,
She asks “why’s my black hair so dang?”
While her naive eyes catch L ’Amoor banging to Apollo’s lyre
(And her red heels kick the lawyer’s briefcase into the fire)
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
(To give cheers to DrL)
Purposely naive livin’ for life (here and now)
One more drink before we go,
To pay homage to Snow,
And spread Amazon warrior vibes.
Oh Sing us a song, oh the L’Amoor Gang,
Purposeful naive livin’ for life (we ❤️ DrL)
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes.
After the Dawn
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum
Chorus 🎶
It’s fun, it’s thrillin’ to transfer,
(LO to TO, and TO to LO)
round and ‘round we go on the moor,
Merrily we spin,
Purposefully Naive Livin’,
In sparkly splashing L ’Amoor.
Stop stalking LO on a social screen,
Stop sending them the LE oozed vibration,
Get up off the ground,
Jump on the merry go round!
And spread love in this amoor-infused nation.
Let’s sway and swing in our limerents’ love-infatuated roar
Let’s evoke Apollo’s lyre in the intoxicated L ’Amoor …
Let’s keep our tipsy pens banging and flying
Let’s banish together that bloody limerence hanging…
Let’s “rise, phoenix-like, from the limerence fire” (expertly tamed by Dr. L)
Let’s soar over our tall, hopeful limerence-free door…
la, la-Lar, di-dee-da,
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
— Trifles 🥖 LaR 🍹, ❄️ 🐦🔥
December 24, 2024
The Christmas Wreath
Anna de Brémont
Oh! Christmas wreath upon the wall,
Within thine ivied space
I see the years beyond recall,
Amid thy leaves I trace
The shadows of a happy past,
When all the world was bright,
And love its magic splendour cast
O’er morn and noon and night.
Oh! Christmas wreath upon the wall,
’Neath memory’s tender spell
A wondrous charm doth o’er thee fall,
And round thy beauty dwell.
Thine ivy hath the satiny sheen
Of tresses I’ve caressed,
Thy holly’s crimson gleam I’ve seen
On lips I oft have pressed.
Oh! Christmas wreath upon the wall,
A mist steals o’er my sight.
Dear hallow’d wreath, these tears are all
The pledge I now can plight
To those loved ones whose spirit eyes
Shine down the flight of time;
Around God’s throne their voices rise
To swell the Christmas Chime!
Hi limerents,
I hope you had a wonderful Christmas time! Now only a few days until New Year‘s Eve, and I’m quite curious if it will be the first year without limerence for me?
Bewitched, Imho and Lim-a-Rant, I experience the opposite to you- I feel resistance and reluctance at contacting XLO. We texted before the holidays (his initiative), and I ended it with wishing him merry Christmas holidays, implying that we wouldn’t have contact in the holidays. Last year it would have been normal to keep texting, sending pictures of Christmas food or walks in the countryside, or simply a text on actual Christmas Day, and since he initiated the last contacts it would definitely my turn now, but I simply don’t want to.
I want a break and distance. And he doesn’t write either, probably being a bit in a huff, and I don’t care, even wish to prolong the NC a bit.
Also, I experience my limerent beast inside me, lacking a goal, chasing its own tail and hunting for a new object. That’s a bit vexing, but fortunately there’s no dangerous object in sight so far.
I write this because it might help you to see that even when I don’t have a LO, the limerence addict in me feels the pull of limerence in these holidays. It’s not about a certain person in the first place, it’s about a feeling and a connection and an excitement.
LOs certainly might be great and fascinating people, but most of limerence is about ourselves.
@Mila,
It’s strange. The version of holidays-texting you describe was like mine this time last year. The compulsion in me to text, or to hope for texts, is no less strong this year (I am way behind you on the path as you know), but my purposeful action has been better (ie not giving into it). It is still really hard to hold myself in this state and not use the trigger finger but I’m riding the tiger.
I’m glad for you that you’re able to maintain progress and not find the holidays to be a step back. As for limerence being mainly about oneself, I believe it on one level (I know it to be true really) but am yet to really be able to experience the detachment of it from my LO. I will keep plugging away. I wonder if this time period may help. Do please keep yourself clear of all shining objects!!
@Imho, @Bewitched,
Hope you are both doing OK. Vent when you need to! Imho, for all my part in the ‘jollity’ on here, please know that a lot of that is smokescreen and distraction. I am still right in the thick of it with my LE really, as are many others here. I feel for you in your current situation and I hope you’re managing.
@Snow,
Lots of napping to be done here for sure (months of sleep deficit that I am working on wiping out!) But main reason I’m quieter and not fulfilling my bar shift work as well, is the constant presence of lots of people around me at the moment. I am glad to see Adam has turned rescuer and stepped in on the door. I am here now to pour coffees. I hope you’re closer to working out THE Lawyer, and back in reality that you are having an OK few days. My conscious and sub conscious have been doing their counterbalancing thing like you predicted.
Rest of the coffeehouse – hope you are having restful holidays 🫂
LaR,
I was at a verge of having a panic attack (symptoms started) after enforcing “Cease and Desist” late afternoon. Then I “called out” here instead of reaching for bottles or sweets. Mighty Adam was so quick to rescue…🙏 🫂
Later, I purposefully rocked out 💃 all the shaky cells in me by “drowning’ in our L ’Amoors pool 🎶 (all for the first time)… The result — having no nightmares and feeling firm…
Not meaning to generalize here at all, but I could not help enquire last night (after having learned what LE is): how crazy a young guy could go during a LE or it varies from case to case? And I’m complaining 🗣️loudly to you again: to be in an unwanted LO (especially as a female) position could be next to a hell! 😡
We can’t knock out the Lawyer yet, still need his T brain for a while; but working him out in L’Amoors should continue…
Enjoy your time with friends in reality. I have to take Mom to her dentist in a minute but my favorite former student will visit me tonight…and more gathering this and next weekend. I need good realistic distractions….
Snow,
I’m sorry you were so close to panic. Well done for reaching out here – it is a good route to take. What can / do you feel you need to do in real life to put cease and desist on that problem?
Limerence can drive a guy pretty potty. I can only speak for myself but I can separate what I feel in my head from my actions. I have only ever needed being turned down once by any woman (an LO or not) to get it and leave her alone. I suspect most LwL guys are the same but I know that doesn’t generalise to all guys.
I am not sure if you meant me to consider the ‘unwanted LO’ position in respect of my MFF also. I do keep open to every possibility from that, to her being ‘a willing LO’. All are possible with the reality likely to be in the middle. I give her space whenever I see a hint she needs it and the rest of the time just respond accordingly to how she acts towards me. My heart will try to convince me otherwise but my executive brain wins. There is the whole ‘friend’ thing in the centre of mine too. I have rarely if ever received a message from her that my presence in her life is unwanted. Apologies if you didn’t mean / need me to go this route. More worried about your situ …
LaR,
I guess age, education, or personality traits make different limerent as well as LO. I have kept amicable friendship with gentlemen Limerent friends; but with “crazy” younger ones, one has to be “ruthless” if necessary to fend them off.
Based on DrL, I understand one’s mind goes to an altered state, but some can “separate their mind from their actions” while some others cannot. Their logical or even learning ability seem to be “disabled” during throe of LE. A b-average student could hand you blank sheets in exams or tongue tied after you repeat the same thing 10 times over for them to mimic or remember! I wonder if LE somehow even burn out/damages a bit of brain. 🧐
I was not in anyway hinting your MFF when I complained. I just could not fully understand why I’m so repulsed and angry by unwanted attention. flattery, validation, pair-bonding driven “expression” … and the worse if they come from a n mind-lost limerent, while my self is one. Did I behave!in some mortifying ways in tthe past 7 years? 🙈
I will always choose a good friend over a limerent or LO.
Sorry for typos, stuck in a metro.
LaR,
In terms of the reality, I just can’t tell at this point what would happen. I can’t even guess.
The official, legitimate NC is given, which means anyone w/ NC can’t come back for the 2nd required term. But they can officially request another placement test, and if they pass it, they have a right to continue the 2nd term. The supervisor was informed and her advice was taken throughout the semester, she’s fair and supportive.
Of course, paper and online records for all progress of classes are saved, so no one can officially complain for unfairness or favoritism. Unfortunately, the recording of Google meet/zoom for a makeup test was not smartly turned on…
“The Lawyer” didn’t expect unthinkable before submitting final grades; the lesson is learned now! 😡 ❄️ 🧠 🔨
Personal SM is blocked, but the group one can’t be dissolved yet. I doubt a living-in dad daily taking care of his 5 yrs with two part-time jobs would do more stupid things beyond normal logics dictate. Dr L says that limerence is NOT stalking….
There is still a bit of “luck” here — if the limerent magically became “smarter” during his LE and passed all tests, the vexed, repulsed LO is bound to deal with him for another 5 months! 😨
Thank you for caring, I’ll keep you informed. By the way, since last potential “glimmer” dramatization, I never went back to that market; no need to check out on Cutie Joe — I’ve resisted literally hundreds of times in that store to take out a jar of my favorite ice cream in the past 2 (3?) years, and I don’t eat pies or cakes of any kind unless they are home baked and not tooth-knocking sweet!
Snow,
I have now seen where DrL says ‘limerence isn’t stalking’! He knows what he is talking about I just spent a very pleasant 40 minutes watching his latest two videos (well, pleasant until I saw the 5 phases flowchart and realised how much hard work I have ahead). I do find it very calming to hear his explanations on the videos. It normalises it all a bit and moves me away from feeling like it is just me going crazy. I’m glad he has branched into videos.
By the way, the Welder can sing for his code unless any specific member of this community requests it. And while I can see why the Lawyer’s presence is reassuring on some level for you at the moment, I still don’t trust him and his red Sharpies.
LaR,
Yes, I watched DrL’s YT last Sat and today (it popped out the first choice since I subscribed the channel), I can’t tell you how much I love his British accent. The measured talk and clear chart-flows are so much more effective than readings on me — I’m more of audio and visual learner.
I put up that “giant-eyed friendship” poem for you (collective patrons) who are aiming LE_friendship; I’m curious to see whether it’s possible. Based on DrL’s chart, I also have some ways to go to totally rid of LE, due to my unwillingness to hurt the Phantom… for me, it’s a life-or-death situation, nothing in between, and the Phantom is shakily dangling on the wings of the awakened imagination.
The Welder is singing now? WoW, Bewitched had him made up his singings and readings in such a speedy fashion, well done! The lawyer’s red sharpies is annoying, but only for the necessarily. Soon, we’ll get him into the splashing pool…
I suddenly caught a cold this morning with running nose and heavy/dizzy head, and just now my cousin informed us that she just had Covid and gave it to her hubby (they both visited us on Monday). So, I have to test it again tomorrow morning. (It’s negative now); binge on Russian epic drama “Dostoyevsky” and BBC series “War and Peace”. I can’t get enough of Russian Classics.
Hope you have a lovely, peaceful night!
Have replied to that but it went in wrong place – hope you find!
LaR,
Thank Zeus, it’s not Covid, just a cold! But I want to repeat something about the energy flowing theory: I tried to meditate yesterday morning to push back this sudden cold (effectively worked in the past) and felt a slightly better. However, I had/have only left nose running, the right one was/is perfect — my right side body always had/has better Qi circulation/flowing (I could feel it, especially while meditating); thus, the left side of the body is more congested overall, including the nose evidently.
“I seem to remember you had it in the summer?”
You have a very good memory — the night I landed home from COO (perhaps caught it on the plane), that time we had not began chatting yet. But my N/F whispered that you’d inch towards ❄️ direction and could put up with 🤺 rambling possibly even after getting 🔥 ….
“I tend towards preferring to learn through reading more than video – ….But I make an exception for DrL.”
I need to FEEL HOW a message/passage/idea is delivered and thus can remember it five times more easily than just reading it. If you show me how to prepare a dish or drink in person, I’ll remember it even without the recipe; but if you hand me the recipe without showing me the steps, I’d read it 5-6 times but still can’t remember and feel very insecure while preparing it.
DrL’s “five stage” video makes limerence sounding like an extra-large “COLD”, no moral judgments nor moral “cancer” warning. He sounds like a caring father chatting with his kids about this potential addictive ailment — limerence. His easy tone made me feel so much less embarrassed and much more at ease (I still berate at some of my idiotic LE behaviors…)
However, with this newly acquired “easiness”, I had a mild/neutral dream last night about ET again, that we landed in a HS in my town to teach our respective courses, without much interactions yet… Upon immediate waking up, I had refreshed painful reflection… Analyzing the source of the recurring pain, I recognize again it’s my wish (a common humanity) that valuable things stay and last, ie. time, deep Agape, exhilarating Eros, dancing Muses, etc.
But Buddhism and the history tell us for thousands years that literally everything is impermanent; everything, tangible or intangible, changes/evolves for better or worse! Yet our wishes and desires cannot stop lingering, thus our shared circulatory pains — on the wheel of hungry ghosts. When I did not have desires (or they died naturally), I felt like a plant (not a zombie) or drifting leaf, blown by wind of all directions. Nowadays, after stumbling on the individuation path for a little while, I began to feel a growth of the root, perhaps growing into a tree?
Thank you for explaining “Go sing for it”, I absolutely had no idea. I thought one could sing/perform something in exchanging for a meal. 😅 Well, aren’t all singers doing that?
“And what do you mean when you say (language wise) with ‘but only for the necessarily’?”
It was a typo. I meant “only for the necessity” referring to some official/professional measurement to be taken in order to protect me personally and professionally. Few limerents (particularly when young) could go “insane” facing their LO.
[Re the poem, a very interesting line is:
“We do not wish the pain back, or the heat;
And yet, and yet, these days are incomplete”]
For me personally, once the crush was gone (after a reciprocation soon or later), I felt some kind of 🔥 dying in me. Later only Agape, compassion or sighs left, but never this “incomplete” feeling. I rarely keep in touch with x-crushes/SO; none of them was ever a friend before that bloody Glimmer struck. Now, my big question is: without any form of reciprocation, can this XXX-sized, only LE fade away on its own? Actively fighting with it has been proven futile for me.
I still can’t grasp how you guys could maintain this friend/LO status while in constant contact. I imagine I’d keep losing my head over my head/tail… 😀
Typo: “losing my head over my heels/tail”…
Snow,
“my N/F whispered that you’d inch towards ❄️ direction and could put up with 🤺 rambling possibly even after getting 🔥”
In life, I am always up for a good joust. Even if the person comes from a drastically different position to mine, it is best to assume they have a very good reason for coming from that position, and investigate why that is – not just condemn their position. It is this “blue team – red team” approach (listen patiently to everyone, argue constructively, attack the argument if need be but not the person) that is the strongest thing that might make the/our world better – my ‘hill to die on’. I grew up with that way, but in the West people are just willingly letting it slip away right under our noses (see also DrL’s views on politics in that post, and my initial comment on it – it is how democracy dies).
I could tell, even in my long ‘silent reader’ phase on here, that I could do ‘blue team red team’ with you. I’d like to continue to do that. Let’s 🤺 further if and when need be – but please give me a couple of weeks at least before we do! (let us just have mulled and music at L’Amoors for that time, for the reasons already explained).
“I still can’t grasp how you guys could maintain this friend/LO status while in constant contact.”
I’m not sure, honestly. I can only speak for my side. And it is utter grim determination that even though I can’t have what my 🧲 F side pulls me towards, I WILL have *something* and this thing won’t beat the friendship we’ve had for so long. I am really going through the full range of emotions about it all during this NC spell, trust me. I will say more when I’m ready, but it is proving heavy 🏋♂️
LaR,
“In life, I am always up for a good joust. Even if the person comes from a drastically different position to mine, it is best to assume they have a very good reason for coming from that position, and investigate why that is – not just condemn their position. “
I’m honored to have you taking me seriously as an equal and fair “competitor” in a jousting. As a tomgirl, I always wished to joust along with brainy boys (could not do enough in COO’s macho environment, most girls were weak and jealousy).
After the first sentence my Mom said to me, I ignorantly self-exiled out of a pink doll’s house and entered a lonesome “Amazon forest”, traumatized, stumbled, fell, and fought my ways in darkness and never dared or knew how to relax… As one shrink pointed out, “you’re still subconsciously trying to prove to your Mom that you are not ‘good for nothing’…” and I denied her claim at the time without understanding my cptsd.
Now, it’s comprehensible why I tended to get energized or even thrive just by entering jousting grounds with matching hands, why I cared so little about other worldly objects, except big LO who was perceived or dreamed to be able to ideally “re-parent” me. In hindsight, who could “parent” a lone-wolf Amazon warrior with a burgundy cocktail dress hidden in her armors? LO4.5 (PhD psychologist) said while bidding our last farewell that most of men would be afraid of me, whether my armor is on or off….
“I could tell, even in my long ‘silent reader’ phase on here, that I could do ‘blue team red team’ with you.”
Thank you again for entering and staying in the jousting ring🤺 with me, with our fully-sealed mask/armor on — more fair without any gender issues (how can you be sure that I am not a man pretending to be a woman here?).
I love 💗 the fact that my “exotic” trainings and “wild” experiences are drastically different from yours, so you (and some other Western competitors) have little clue when and what would be my next moves. As an uncivilized, untamed Amazon Warrior, I also like breaking all existing rules of both the West and East, even just for a tease. … 😅
“ I’d like to continue to do that. Let’s 🤺 further if and when need be – but please give me a couple of weeks at least before we do! (let us just have mulled and music at L’Amoors for that time, for the reasons already explained).”
A deal! I don’t have any issues on hand to 🤺 with you now; and it’s a holiday time for annual rest and renewal — a “truce” on all fronts, except spinning our L’Ammors with mulled 🍷 🍹 🥃 and 💃 🕺🏿
“even though I can’t have what my 🧲 F side pulls me towards, I WILL have *something* and this thing won’t beat the friendship we’ve had for so long. “
Yes, I’ll be patiently waiting to see what “something” is and how it lasts in your reality, while I’m having this undefinable “something” in my dreams/the Unconscious, which haunted me every 2 or 3 nights! 😳
“I am really going through the full range of emotions about it all during this NC spell, trust me. I will say more when I’m ready, but it is proving heavy 🏋♂️”
It sounds like you’re experiencing a “drug” withdrawal symptoms. I can imagine it, since I’ve been through many long NCs (holiday breaks and Pandemic from 1-11 months, now a permanent one)…. The huge difference is that you have a loving SO next to you day out and night in, and LO steadily reciprocating your friendship, while most of us here could only daydream/fantasize our LOs or having painful time to “kill” them. Would thinking of the rest respective “gloomy” fate 😞, make you feel a bit lighter 🪶?
We had weather of 15C degree today, and 13C tomorrow, so nice to take a stroll outside, even with a single runny 👃 and headache 🤕….
Snow,
Really glad we are in agreement about the benefit of our interactions.
“I’m honored to have you taking me seriously as an equal and fair “competitor” in a jousting”.
I find it cute that you said that, but it also appears the wrong way round to me – it is I who should be honoured that you want to have these regular conversations with me (and that statement may give you more insight into some of my wounds and protectors). If you wanted to (and I know you don’t want to, so this is just an ‘if’ statement), I believe you could joust me out of the ring quite easily, if you had your armour on.
I am quite a sensitive soul as you’ll have seen, despite my very active T (some days on a test I would come out F, some T). So to joust for me – despite me really liking it intellectually – can be a real effort. Sometimes F will be wounded initially by hard truths, and I will have to wait it out for T to wake up to continue a joust. But I do believe we get some of our most valuable insight from contrary opinions. If we were just a echo chamber here, there would be less point to LwL. Although as we have both said, at other times it is really nice to get our thoughts affirmed too.
“Would thinking of the rest respective “gloomy” fate 😞, make you feel a bit lighter 🪶?”
Before I start to respond, let me say thank you for the list of distractions you gave me for the ‘withdrawal’ period. It is like a literal cold turkey drug withdrawal, like you put it. Several of the distractions have already been very helpful. Others will be as we move into new year.
I am really aware of this ‘priviliged’ position of my LE compared to others. That does often hold me back from writing much about what the ‘darker side’ of the LE feels like for me. In terms of balancing out my contributions to LwL, I do very often try to interact with posters whose situations seem more dire than my own, and within those interactions I try to acknowledge my different / more ‘privileged’ LE position compared to them, where it feels relevant – without hijacking their points. I realise it in your individual case too, and I do feel empathy for you dealing with the long tail of your LE effectively by yourself and with us ghosts. I am glad to be able to help a bit when I do.
The side on managing limerence while with an SO versus without one is interesting. You will have seen my previous discussions with CSC and further back with Bewitched about it. I am composing a longer reply to you connected to that part, which should explain more of how that is for me. That will be a continuation of this message (much later today), but I thought I’d just post this bit for now.
By the way, your recent reports of dreams about 👽 do sound a bit more middling – neither too warm or too cold. I hope that’s an encouraging sign for where your conscious brain is about it too. Yes change will be slow but do you feel any steadying?
“how can you be sure that I am not a man pretending to be a woman here?”
I can’t tell that! That is one of the joys of our anonymity here, I guess. We can be who we want to be and look how we want to look 👻👻.
Would it even matter to me if you were a man pretending to be a woman?? Yes on one level as it would raise huge authenticity questions about the information you’ve provided. I like to think I am interacting authentically with a person, but I have no way to tell for sure – only my strong N. But on the other hand, I engage as much with points or ideas I find interesting, than picking out people. Whenever a poster makes a point that interests me, I respond (eventually). So if you turned out to be a man but you still had points and arguments that I liked engaging with, maybe it wouldn’t matter?!
I could kind of see how as part of someone’s (not your) ‘disguise’ on here – some need a lot of disguise to get them to speak at all – they might just change their gender and flip their whole story the other way round. I bet there are ghosts here who do / have done that? I also wonder sometimes if there are posters that write under two or more different ‘handles’. I can promise you I don’t do that – but it is logistically possible if I wanted to that I could use another (maybe female) name and identity to write from, isn’t it?
LaR,
“I can’t tell that! That is one of the joys of our anonymity here, I guess. We can be who we want to be and look how we want to look.
It’s the best attraction of this site that we can stripe off our superficial identity clothes — sex/gender, race, age, profession, social & economical status, to reveal our psychology inside as much as we feel comfortable. And as you point out, we could also be what we wish to be but can’t be in our realistic domain. We could let one or all our ultra persona live in this “free” space when we deal with our shared LE. LwL land incredibly enticing and additive to a creative mind and spirit.
“Would it even matter to me if you were a man pretending to be a woman?? “
Maybe not you. But speaking to a Shoenix or a Dragon would make a world difference to Adam-like heroes, who want to rescue damsel in distress. Miss Snowpheonix “sounds/looks” very different from Mister Firedragon. 😁 — Adam 📣, am I right?
“Yes on one level as it would raise huge authenticity questions about the information you’ve provided. “
What others’ factual information has to do with your process/journey to cure LE? Is their superficial identity more important or their brain and points of views in relating to your case? What forms one’s personal identity anyway?
https://youtu.be/oocunV4JX4w?si=nrqyyJVJYHwePu_l — Who am I?
“I like to think I am interacting authentically with a person, but I have no way to tell for sure – only my strong N. “
Since we’re dealing with each other only through words, without any of five sensical knowledge, we are “forced” to discern others’ authenticity with our N and T brain, (F is tricky and unreliable in terms of trusting only words — there are tons of cases when people fall for online personnels whom they have never met in reality). “The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them.” — Hemingway. One would be driven MAD if constantly live in doubts while socializing.
“But on the other hand, I engage as much with points or ideas I find interesting, than picking out people. “
That’s what is supposed to be in this site, where our realistic identity is protected and irrelevant. Posters are real people in reality, but ghosts in LwL domain, with only their emotions, thoughts, and spirits, which I tend to believe authentic (if chose not to be, then for what beneficial purposes? ) and helpful at least to oneself, if not anyone else.
“Whenever a poster makes a point that interests me, I respond (eventually). So if you turned out to be a man but you still had points and arguments that I liked engaging with, maybe it wouldn’t matter?! “
It would NOT, and should NOT matter! But you can have a ☕️ with me to find out… 😆
“I could kind of see how as part of someone’s (not your) ‘disguise’ on here – some need a lot of disguise to get them to speak at all – they might just change their gender and flip their whole story the other way round. “
It’s definitely possible and understandable, considering how much we all live under heavy social, moral codes. In COO, we can’t beat the system, so we go around or underneath it to get meager of what we wanted.
“I also wonder sometimes if there are posters that write under two or more different ‘handles’. I can promise you I don’t do that –“
I am fairly certain that I’ve caught a couple such an act and openly made my “accusation”, while it really didn’t matter — one can name oneself Chris, Zeus, Athena or Aphrodite… or whatever to push their agendas through…. I did once for a sounding reason.
“but it is logistically possible if I wanted to that I could use another (maybe female) name and identity to write from, isn’t it?”
Yes, you could. In dating apps, I’ve encountered 2/3 men pretending a woman (with photos) speaking to me. In most situations, I rarely ignored or got into a fight with women; I have a rescuer- complex as a “warrior”.
Oh, boy, am I a man or woman now❓ It’s up to your judgment and acceptance. ☺️
Snow,
I think you nailed it – the facts/opinions of the person are, or should be, more important than the identity. But I do (maybe not as much as Adam) see and interact with men and women differently. There will be overlap with the topics I discuss with the guys and the girls on here, but also differences in what I’d ask them and how I’d do it. These are tendencies, not absolutes, as every person is different.
The bit that would be harder is if I found out *now* that Snowphoenix (pheonix?) was male. I would ask why he’d told me and others he was female all this time. I’d feel conned / duped. This isn’t to say I wouldn’t get over it (see example earlier about my F leading and my T eventually catching up) but it would throw me at first.
I trust my intuition very strongly – unlike F/T where I am close, my N utterly dominates S. And so it is with believing that you are a woman! And deciding who else I want to take at face value on here and have extended interactions. I do think of you all as real ‘feeling’ people, even though your faces and real life identities are ghostly.
Hemingway’s quote is a bit like Trifles’ ‘naive living’ – I also try and trust people on the whole. Occasionally I’ll get it wrong, more often right, and the benefits outweigh the costs.
We all massage the elements of our personality we display on here. But like you said – to outright lie seems to be counter to the point or any real benefits. I prefer to trust too. I have not written anything which is a lie, though have massaged a few details a bit here and there purely to protect identities.
I wasn’t aware that you’d made any accusation of a double profile on here! Did the person admit it??
LaR,
“Really glad we are in agreement about the benefit of our interactions.”
For me T brain, LwL is like my previous listening ear — the Phantom, and several LwL phantoms responded! After I vented out all that aged, repressed impact of either LEs or other traumatic stuff, I felt relieved, my old wounds healed a bit somewhere inside. 👽 before and LwL presently are functioning as a channel for my expressions of some sorts, not ALL though.
But for F brain, no one can replace your (collectively) LO/MFF, nor my 👽. Glimmer hit by one’s DNA drive, not T brain, and LE is crystallized by multiple factors in one’s life. Can mere T brain get rid of LE? I strongly doubt it and have not succeeded it with its dragging tail…
“it is I who should be honoured that you want to have these regular conversations with me (and that statement may give you more insight into some of my wounds and protectors). “
I was not thinking of IFS at all when composing the previous post. Invisibly conversing with people the world over was my biggest childhood/youth dream (COO was so isolated); it’s still very intriguing and fascinating — I look at my life as an open book, which is added a paragraphy or page everyday, here or in my journal or mind. For various reasons, It’s quite hard to find so many available people/ghosts in one space to carry on deep conversations without worrying too much about our reality, respectively.
“If you wanted to (and I know you don’t want to, so this is just an ‘if’ statement), I believe you could joust me out of the ring quite easily, if you had your armour on. “
Nope. I’m very ignorant in many aspects of life, such as politics, economics, Western music, Hollywood movies, current literal circle, cultural or social trends… One’s energy, time and interest are limited, unfortunately. However, I’m open to exploring “new” territories as an apprentice if there are guiding hands. My primary interests and focus is on What, How and Why, in any matter.
“I am quite a sensitive soul as you’ll have seen, despite my very active T (some days on a test I would come out F, some T). So to joust for me – despite me really liking it intellectually – can be a real effort. “
Understand! I’m lucky that my forced T brain training since childhood has not eaten up my entire F brain (still hard to tear, although a bit more). The one of reasons that I strongly advocate F training is that I want it to be liberated inside me, if any has left, or to be freshly cultivated in me. You have no idea how much I regretted about my T brain functioning in all my “LEs”… Now, if I want to nourish my F sprouting brain, then I can’t get rid of this lingering LE tail — I’m catching 22!
“Sometimes F will be wounded initially by hard truths, and I will have to wait it out for T to wake up to continue a joust. But I do believe we get some of our most valuable insight from contrary opinions. “
Yes. I’ve been learning invaluable F brain functioning from you, so please continue letting your F shine, whether jousting with me or not. I need so badly to really get this Western F brain, which was/is almost completely missing in COO. (I had little due to my obsession with classical literature when young and through out my adult life).
“I am really aware of this ‘priviliged’ position of my LE compared to others.”
My small jousting is coming now:
I can’t help but sense you have not appreciated it or been grateful enough to your privilege. It’s this attitude or psychology that makes you suffer MORE the dark side of your LE, which is shinny than a lot of us here.
Again, this is similar to the argument I made for your MFF a while ago. Last time I was thinking for her, while criticizing your attitude; this time is for you — your pains. Based on my Stoic learning, if you change your attitude or reaction, your pains could/would be reduced. In my eyes, you’re suffering MORE than necessary.
“That does often hold me back from writing much about what the ‘darker side’ of the LE feels like for me.
I’m sure your LE pains are as real as any other limerents who live in uncertainty and are unable to remove LE. In this regard, my T has suppressed F largely from expressing its pains here; others’ poems help(ed) me release them.
“In terms of balancing out my contributions to LwL, I do very often try to interact with posters whose situations seem more dire than my own, and within those interactions I try to acknowledge my different / more ‘privileged’ LE position compared to them, where it feels relevant – without hijacking their points. “
I see that. When one turns outwards to pay attention to others’ specific pains and try to help them, our T brain and its actions help us simultaneously distract or reduce our personal pains. This attempt and action should bring us some internal rewards (I felt that, too, occasionally). However, does this T brain help our F one, without internal attitude change or psychological actions?
What I mean here? You don’t know — in a F level yet (maybe I’m wrong), how other limrents feel/encounter in those dire situations. Just as you said before once, you can intellectualize and sympathize how we grew up in COO, but you’d never know how it felt like, unless you have lived there yourself. And if you know what is like sitting on the bottom of the LE well, you’d not feel this much of pain in dealing with the “dark side of LE” on the “top” of the well. Dad often told me to compare with those who were in worse or more underserved situations, not those seemingly higher, shinny ones.
You wish/want an ideal dynamic in your LE, yet do not know what this ideal could be in your situation. If you’re truly more content with what you have now, compared to many of us, you’d NOT feel so gloomy with this limited NC. What if you were suddenly put in my shoes with your MFF?
“I realise it in your individual case too, and I do feel empathy for you dealing with the long tail of your LE effectively by yourself and with us ghosts. I am glad to be able to help a bit when I do.”
You’re helping tremendously by keeping me a chatting buddy; otherwise, my ramblings here might have all landed in 👽’s SM box. But my F brains swings hundreds times each day… because my LE suffering is related to many other factors in my earlier life, which I cannot get into yet here.
“your recent reports of dreams about do sound a bit more middling – neither too warm or too cold. I hope that’s an encouraging sign for where your conscious brain is about it too. Yes change will be slow but do you feel any steadying?”
Yes, my neutral toned dreams are helping me stabilize, after those F swaying and swings. My hands are not so itchy as before, but something inside me still tightening or wrenching my heart…. The negative reflections could help “kill” 👽 eventually, but he was/is the mask of the Phantom, which has a piece of me, the 🐦🔥, grown in it. My rescue complex finds it almost impossible to abandon this piece (I never had it before….). I wonder if I can keep that fantasy world up in Galaxy, without affecting my trivial life down here on Earth…
I need to get ready for a dinner party. Sorry if I spoke harshly again, but I wanted you to know my authentic thoughts and senses, even if they are very wrong.
LaR,
I’ll make this post easy for you, without getting wordy. I’m unequivocally a male. LO and Lady Friend are females.
What you get from me are pretty honest accounts.. 🤣
LaR,
I tried at least 5 times to load up a complex message, but it was rejected repeatedly… I think the system can’t decide or refuse to tell you whether I’m female or male so ate my post 🆙 (it was saved in my note, though!)
So you’ll have to think of me as a red bird 🐦🔥 that can speaks human language and often chirp 🐤 with you…
LaR,
“I trust my intuition very strongly – unlike F/T where I am close, my N utterly dominates S. “
That’s the path to stick to! 🤝 From my experiences, every time I doubted my intuition, I made a medium or huge mistake, no exception! N brain is outside the box of T, but not necessarily in conflict with T, but T can’t reason out N! N springs from S, F, and T combined (based on Jung, as I remember).
“And so it is with believing that you are a woman! And deciding who else I want to take at face value on here and have extended interactions. “
It’s totally your choice and decision to make, and thank you for trusting my self-claimed womanhood. But keep in mind that our words (or even photos) can’t confirm anything either way, unless you meet us in person and can verify that you are indeed facing to that red bird 🐦🔥 or whoever.
I stress this is because I found out, through pains, that our T brain does not match/correspond with our S and N, our WORDS are not our authentic selfs but just a tool through which we could peek in others and ourselves. Verbal communications more than often produce illusive/confusing/false messages or simply misunderstandings/misleadings.
Wittgenstein is the expert on words; I was a “victim” of mere verbal communications 7 times over.. . After those learned lessons, I understood Five-sense communication and that N are indispensable in learning about, understanding, and connecting with others. That’s why LE based on 6 senses are so hard to get rid of… it permeates in one’s entire system, probably in every cell.
[part 3]
“Hemingway’s quote is a bit like Trifles’ ‘naive living’ – “
Only when encountering/making NEW friends, we COO folks tend to adapt Hemingway’s mentality – throw our genuine mind/heart in and watch whether other side would do the same without any pressure. After 3 big trails/tests, you decide whether it’s right or worthwhile to continue or walk away.
“We all massage the elements of our personality we display on here.”
Sure, most of us do; but why? Without any realistic identity already, why do we care about how to display our ghosts’ personality in a “ghost land”? I’m just trying to understand this shared psychology here. Are we afraid that our personality (even without realistic identite) are judged? Would judgment in a “ghost land” affect our life in reality?
Now that you mentioned, I’m thinking about how important one’s personality is, besides those superficial identity, in terms of contributing some insightful guidance or pragmatic assistance to other LE suffering souls. If we like a ghost’s personality, do we tend to listen more to his or her views, which might not be helpful or even mis-directing? on the other hand, If we dislike a ghost’s personality, do we ignore his or her sharp reasoning or possibly sounding advice in helping get rid of our own LE?
“I wasn’t aware that you’d made any accusation of a double profile on here! Did the person admit it??”
Do you think the sort of people who felt a need to use double files would openly admit it? I don’t quite understand the need of doing it…
Still, it’s amazing to think that theoretically not only we could be one ghost here, but also 10 different ghosts here… and no one else could possibly spot us out!😳
******
I tried to post this post five times earlier, but unsuccessfully; can’t figure out why.
My cold is still here, the other half nose is running now, and my mood is 😒 , which is good to prevent “the hand itchy”….
“If you’re truly more content with what you have now, compared to many of us, you’d NOT feel so gloomy with this limited NC.”
Snow, that’s an interesting question. And one I commented on to TO. I was not being obnoxious, I just came across some scandalous celebrity news and joked to him (about his situation): “It could be worse”. To which he replied that it doesn’t make his situation any better.
I think this is a question of F, feeling. Intellectually (T) knowing that someone has it worse, doesn’t unfortunately lessen our own feelings of distress, sadness, etc. We still feel those. Even if from the outside we see someone as having it all – riches that they don’t even know what to do with, SO, kids, etc. – you can’t deny them the pains they feel about something.
P.S. I thought of mentioning on here that I am actually L.E.’s other handle where he pretends to be a female. But I will skip that!
In any case, if it weren’t for my stereotypically female worries, I think I sound more like a man anyway. Must be the T brain that makes me sound like a male engineer sometimes. 😆
Trifles,
WHAT? You were L.E. all along?? I feel DUPED! NOW your rescue complex for the welder starts to make real sense …
Happy new year in advance (with not one mention of purposeful living – oh whoops). I hope you had a nice restful Christmas period.
I wasn’t really sure what Snow meant by that comment. I have made a guess in my reply to her at the bottom. At first I thought it related to SO, then to LO, then to all of it or goodness knows (see below for my guess).
Yes, everyone should be permitted their own pains (TO has a point). I have stuck rigidly to the guns we discussed before Christmas but boy is it difficult. I have really struggled. A lot of “are you OK / you’re not OK are you?” from SO. Hard to think up excuses for – given that this work-free bit of the year should, *in theory* be the most joyous and relaxed bit for me! I think you will hopefully ‘get it’ even despite the differences in our situations.
I hope navigating the contact with TO over the hols has been OK for you, or that you’ve just given yourself a total break from it!
“If you’re truly more content with what you have now, compared to many of us, you’d NOT feel so gloomy with this limited NC.”
Well as the saying goes; sometimes it takes the heart longer to accept what the mind already has. One can intellectually accept what happens while the heart still longs for it to be the way it was. I don’t think limerence helps that process quickly. Hence why we are all still here.
May the new year be a page turn of some kind for all of us limerents and your limerent episodes. And for course thanks to Dr L and Mrs L for making this place what it is.
LaR,
I’m sorry to hear that you’re having a tough time with NC. Have you had any “texting allowed” days?
I’ve been busy with Christmas visits and activities, but not too busy to text. 🙈 I’ve had time to relax as well.
I haven’t had the best day and it feels like I’m heading into the new year harried and angry. But I will try to get my hands on some bubbly soon and see if it turns my mood around!
I wish you a happy and mentally calm New Year! I’m not in the mood to think up resolutions right now. There would be too many! So I will allow myself some slack for a day or two.
Adam,
They are very kind and wise words, thank you. The brain is willing but the heart is weaker. Happy new year to you, Momma and family – hope ’25 brings you even more peace.
Trifles,
Resolutions smezolutions!! (For today anyway). Hope tomorrow is a better day. And yeah, 🍾 can change any mood. Cheers 🥂
Hope you all enjoy your NYE. I’ll happily do a lock-in at the Amoors later, if needed 😂
Adam, LaR,
To recognize a difference between F and T is insightful; but to let heart stay/remain in a weak position is NOT wise, IMO. It is not even what your LO would want, if/should they reciprocate your LE affections. I was LO several times over and I don’t see myself as an emotion “butchering” limerent.
You maybe interested in this clip that speaks to both God believers and non-believers: https://youtu.be/d12hsVl0c_A?si=o3JCOS6B3NHQuIpC — What Carl Jung Said about God Shocks Everyone!
It talks about personal divinity, individualism, dreams, hardship, shadow work, individuation, organized religion, etc.
Trifles, Adam, LaR,
I was a half way through a long response to your post, but got interrupted by phone call from my Lady friend… now all my words were wiped out from my screen by an invisible hand! (wifi is back, though) 😠
Well, it will take another while to get my thoughts together and put down here, but no longer before your New Year moment! (Adam still has time).
So let me give you a big shout, “Happy New Year!”
New Year’s Morning
Helen Hunt Jackson
Only a night from old to new!
Only a night, and so much wrought!
The Old Year’s heart all weary grew,
But said: “The New Year rest has brought.”
The Old Year’s hopes its heart laid down,
As in a grave; but, trusting, said:
“The blossoms of the New Year’s crown
Bloom from the ashes of the dead.”
The Old Year’s heart was full of greed;
With selfishness it longed and ached,
And cried: “I have not half I need.
My thirst is bitter and unslaked.
But to the New Year’s generous hand
All gifts in plenty shall return;
True love it shall understand;
By all my failures it shall learn.
I have been reckless; it shall be
Quiet and calm and pure of life.
I was a slave; it shall go free,
And find sweet peace where I leave strife.”
Only a night from old to new!
Never a night such changes brought.
The Old Year had its work to do;
No New Year miracles are wrought.
Always a night from old to new!
Night and the healing balm of sleep!
Each morn is New Year’s morn come true,
Morn of a festival to keep.
All nights are sacred nights to make
Confession and resolve and prayer;
All days are sacred days to wake
New gladness in the sunny air.
Only a night from old to new;
Only a sleep from night to morn.
The new is but the old come true;
Each sunrise sees a new year born.
******
I was a slave of limerence; I will set it free with wisdom
And find sweet peace where I leave strife.”
Only a night from old to new!
Never a night such changes brought.
The Old Year had its work to do;
No New Year miracles are free of the devoted struggles.
🐦🔥
Woman in Front of Poster of Herself
Alice Notley
1945 –
Said I shouldn’t.
Fingering me.
Everything I did.
A litter of chewed knucklebones
I’ve spread them out over the
rectangular floor as regularly as
I can; so I can account for them.
Her hands are crossed over her breasts and each holds a feather; her face has no features Have I come to beg What do I wish — to be judged?
Is it an accumulation of what I’ve said, that counts, that I’m counting is it all alphabet and abacus everything rhymed?
You still don’t have a face.
Suddenly she has the face of a cat. No that’s a different goddess. I tell you this bloodthirsty jaguar . . .
I haven’t any idea what my word is, I mean fault. Is it a word or an act. The whole thrill is ripping me apart Inside these words there’s nothing but a pumping bloodsoaked . . . but clearly, everything I said, did, was a long shot
We didn’t hear a word What have you ever heard?
Now I’m here — black-caped in a chair. Animal staring at me I sink into your disaffected ambiance to name. What emotional charges have been laid on me from earliest times and my own earliest resulting in the bone strewn carpet I had to grow the dice of accounting to your love; for you made me speak to you lovingly; or did I do that naturally oh just, bloodthirsty face who doesn’t have to understand. I don’t know who I’m speaking to is pushing me
Judgment maybe it’s when being fragile I hallucinate you best
I don’t want to use my name! “Where I was born we girls ran free. and named ourselves,” Justice says. She may kill me, it depends on whether she’s hungry
*********
Ok, Peeps.
Here’s the deal.
While The Welder is pounding out Bob Seeger on open mic night, The Lawyer is sitting in a booth, bottle on the table, sipping whisky, and writing “Cease and Desist” letters to zombies on the backs of cocktail napkins in red Sharpie.
I think DrL needs to open a separate blog for new arrivals so they don’t get lost in the current mayhem.
A LE case:
Limerent: 27yrs single dad, Latino BG, majoring in nursing, good looking, humble, social.
LO: His Professor
LE behaviors: eye drilling, mind scattering, mouth stuttering, and nothing going into his LE ears in class, or office hours, or online tutoring. Late assignments, failing every quiz and exam (from 10-25%), feverishly making up projects, begging to pass the class.
“Cease and Desist” by “THE Lawyer” and the supervisor: NC — No Credit for the required class (GPA is not affected!).
Limerent’s reaction: “ just know this isn’t the last time you’ll see me or hear from me 😊”.
L ’Amoors door needs a doorman, unless some ladies on the moor wants him.
I can do that. Tip my hat to ladies, throw out the riffraff. Keep feeding me mulled wine and oysters and I can do this. As long I know I am protecting Mother Lovisa and LE is there to keep me on my toes. Quite literally. Than I come inside and karaoke with MJ. And Marcia and Nisor and Linerent Nurse keep me in line. Cause I can’t argue with the ladies. I’m no cade. But MJ has to promise to serenade his lady friend if we do karaoke. Imma have to insists he goes with this.
Brick House — The Commodores
https://youtu.be/DvLmwskmsGg?si=tRLJU7zm8BjxVeJi
🫂 Adam 🫂!
I know our strongest and steadiest gentleman would protect us, “stacked, brick-house, Amazon ladies! We are now in your most trustworthy hands, Adam!
Here are more mulled 🍷 🍷 🍷 and 🦪 🦪 🦪 for you and Momma, MJ and his Lady friend… and all our briefly “reposed” patrons…
Now, the ONE and ONLY Adam — his karaoke 🎤 is on full 💥!
The only song I’ll ever consider doing karaoke to is Breathes, “How can I fall?”
https://youtu.be/PwZ4erdJZRA
I can sing it perfectly and still reach the higher notes. I actually enjoy singing it, and you all will be thoroughly entertained..
I’m sure Lady Friend will also enjoy my serenading her, as long as I keep her favorite Titos flowing..
Either that or blueberry wine..
👏 MJ 👏
Can you get those Vanilla-buttered boys fall in our L’Amoors? 😘
It’s time to 💃 🕺🏿 — Adam, MJ
https://youtu.be/t4H_Zoh7G5A?si=6XRVz1G43FrNGxEd — Jennifer Lopez — on the floor
This is to our a bit “vexed” Mila – can you spot a possible LO here —
https://youtu.be/bjgFH01k0gU?si=F_GrzS7h8_8bYXF3 — Dance Again
Finally, I understand 😳 why you guys, especially Adam, LaR, MJ… like to staying in Limbo 🥰 — https://youtu.be/6BTjG-dhf5s?si=a4hEFY6FLUe_48MC — Limbo
I will join you guys… 💃 🕺🏿
Hi Snow,
I hope it won’t turn out to be Covid for you again – I seem to remember you had it in the summer?
I tend towards preferring to learn through reading more than video – ingrained habit but also how my brain works … but especially where it comes to limerence, reading is easier (draws less attention to fact I’m doing it)! But I make an exception for DrL.
“Go sing for it” is an idiom – as in something like “the welder asked me for an extra £100 after completing the work, but he can go sing for it” – to mean there is no way he will get it. It might originate from ‘sing for your supper’. The code is being kept very secure. And what do you mean when you say (language wise) with ‘but only for the necessarily’?
Re the poem, a very interesting line is:
“We do not wish the pain back, or the heat;
And yet, and yet, these days are incomplete”
I can really relate to what she means in both lines. I haven’t read everything on LwL, but a good chunk (maybe a third to half). In all of that, which has a good span across the life of the blog (so captures most regular historical commenters) I can only remember three people saying they managed to transition from limerence to genuine friendship with an xLO. One subsequently changed their mind too. It seems a low number. Are the odds really stacked that strongly against it??
L ‘Amour is still open…
LaR, are you up from the nap? The Welder is looking for you for the code …
Where is the Lawyer? he left the red-inked napkin on the table, LE, you might want to check him up near the aroma pool… Does he know how to swim?
https://youtu.be/NaEbWyb9bOA?si=BKXPDi3Umt6Ncllt — More than Friends…
‘Cause I was down for the count ’til I met you
Ain’t a chance in the world I forget you, no
If my words ever start to upset you
Then I sing you this song just to let you know
You (yeah), you got what I need (you do, baby)
But you say I’m just a friend (c’mon), oh you say I’m just a friend
Oh, baby, you, you got what I need (yeah, yeah), yeah
But you say I’m just a friend
I guess we’ll never be more than friends
Never be more than
Never, never no, never, never, never no
I’d rather be forever, -ever, -ever, -ever though
Never, never no, never, never, never no
I’d rather be forever though, though”
******
https://youtu.be/pJjjzarKotI?si=Q8DTOwKLtMmADhPX — We Wanna
[Verse 1: INNA]
Down in the rough part of town
There’s an epidemic goin’ around
I get the fever when I hear that sound
I can’t help it, I gotta move right now
When I hear the drums start to play
I let my body run away
I wanna party like everyday
If you’re with me let me hear you say
[Pre-Chorus: INNA & Alexandra Stan]
Do we wanna stop it? No way!
Do we let the cops in? No way!
We about to rock this whole place
What do we want?
[Chorus: INNA]
We wanna dance ’till we can’t no more
We wanna love with the lights down low
From Argentina to Morocco
We wanna dance, it’s about to go
Friendship After Love
Ella Wheeler Wilcox
1850 –1919
After the fierce midsummer all ablaze
Has burned itself to ashes, and expires
In the intensity of its own fires,
There come the mellow, mild, St. Martin days
Crowned with the calm of peace, but sad with haze.
So after Love has led us, till he tires
Of his own throes, and torments, and desires,
Comes large-eyed friendship: with a restful gaze,
He beckons us to follow, and across
Cool verdant vales we wander free from care.
Is it a touch of frost lies in the air?
Why are we haunted with a sense of loss?
We do not wish the pain back, or the heat;
And yet, and yet, these days are incomplete.
******
Are your gaze restful? Are your days feel complete?
One Year ago—jots what? (296)
Emily Dickinson
One Year ago—jots what?
God—spell the word! I—can’t—
Was’t Grace? Not that—
Was’t Glory? That—will do—
Spell slower—Glory—
Such Anniversary shall be—
Sometimes—not often—in Eternity—
When farther Parted, than the Common Woe—
Look—feed upon each other’s faces—so—
In doubtful meal, if it be possible
Their Banquet’s true—
I tasted—careless—then—
I did not know the Wine
Came once a World—Did you?
Oh, had you told me so—
This Thirst would blister—easier—now—
You said it hurt you—most—
Mine—was an Acorn’s Breast—
And could not know how fondness grew
In Shaggier Vest—
Perhaps—I couldn’t—
But, had you looked in—
A Giant—eye to eye with you, had been—
No Acorn—then—
So—Twelve months ago—
We breathed—
Then dropped the Air—
Which bore it best?
Was this—the patientest—
Because it was a Child, you know—
And could not value—Air?
If to be “Elder”—mean most pain—
I’m old enough, today, I’m certain—then—
As old as thee—how soon?
One—Birthday more—or Ten?
Let me—choose!
Ah, Sir, None!
******
About this Poem
“One Year ago—jots what?” was first published in Bolts of Melody: New Poems of Emily Dickinson (Harper & Brothers, 1945). In The Art of Emily Dickinson’s Early Poetry (Harvard University Press, 2000), David T. Porter, professor emeritus of English at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, writes, “In the poem ‘One Year ago—jots what?’ the speaker is trying to recapture (through the imagination) and to define an earlier time when parting from a lover was comparable to the pain of death. [. . .] In a manner similar to [John] Donne’s and [Robert] Browning’s (the abruptness of the rhythm, the use of colloquial language, the implication that a listener is present), Emily Dickinson establishes a vivid sense of presence and of personality. Faithful to the experience of hearing a person speak out of great emotion, the poet here implies that the emotional pressure defies any sort of auditory or rhythmical regularity. In the final stanza, true to the emotional intensity, the end-sounds shift nervously, repel, effect an exact rhyme once (then-Ten), and terminate in the sound None, for which there has been no precise auditory preparation, and for the meaning of which, indeed, there has been only a subtly indicative tendency in the speaker’s increasing insight into her condition [. . .].”
Passing of the Old Year
Mary Weston Fordham
Ah! the year is slowly dying,
And the wind in tree-top sighing,
Chant his requiem.
Thick and fast the leaves are falling,
High in air wild birds are calling,
Nature’s solemn hymn.
In the deep, dark forest lingers,
Imprints of his icy fingers,
Chill, and dark, and cold.
And the little streamlets flowing,
Wintry sun so softly glowing,
Through the maple’s gold.
So, Old Year, gird on your armor,
Let not age, nor fear, nor favor,
Hurry you along.
List! the farewell echoes pealing,
List! the midnight hour is stealing,
Hark! thy dying song.
Say, Old Year, ere yet your death knell
Rings from out yon distant church bell,
Say, what have you done?
Tell of hearts you’ve sadly broken,
Tell of love dead and unspoken,
Ere your course is run.
Tell the mother who doth languish,
O’er her graves in silent anguish,
She will see again,
Blooming bright “beyond the river,”
Living on for aye an ever,
Every bright-eyed gem.
Ah! full many a spirit weary,
You have wooed from paths so dreary,
Wafted them above.
Now they say Old Year, we bless thee
Raise thy head, we would caress thee
For this home of love.
On thy brow lies many a furrow,
And thy eyes tell many a sorrow
Hath its shadow cast.
But thy task is almost ended,
Soon the path which thou hast wended,
Will be called the “Past.”
Then, old dying year we hold thee,
To our hearts we fondly fold thee,
Ere the midnight bell.
Soon thy race will now be ended,
With Eternity be blended,
So, Old Year, farewell
The Things That Count
Ella Wheeler Wilcox
1850 –1919
Now, dear, it isn’t the bold things,
Great deeds of valour and might,
That count the most in the summing up of life at the end of the day.
But it is the doing of old things,
Small acts that are just and right;
And doing them over and over again, no matter what others say;
In smiling at fate, when you want to cry, and in keeping at work when you want to play—
Dear, those are the things that count.
And, dear, it isn’t the new ways
Where the wonder-seekers crowd
That lead us into the land of content, or help us to find our own.
But it is keeping to true ways,
Though the music is not so loud,
And there may be many a shadowed spot where we journey along alone;
In flinging a prayer at the face of fear, and in changing into a song a groan—
Dear, these are the things that count.
My dear, it isn’t the loud part
Of creeds that are pleasing to God,
Not the chant of a prayer, or the hum of a hymn, or a jubilant shout or song.
But it is the beautiful proud part
Of walking with feet faith-shod;
And in loving, loving, loving through all, no matter how things go wrong;
In trusting ever, though dark the day, and in keeping your hope when the way seems long—
Dear, these are the things that count.
World’s Bliss
Alice Notley
1945 –
The men & women sang & played
they sleep by singing, what
shall I say of the most
poignant on earth the most glamorous
loneliest sought after people
those poets wholly beautiful
desolate aureate, death is a
powerful instinctive emotion—
but who would be released from
a silver skeleton? gems
& drinking cups—This
skull is Helen—who would not
be released from the
Book of Knowledge? Why
should a maiden lie on a moor
for seven nights & a day? And
he is a maiden, he is & she
on the grass the flower the spray
where they lie eating primroses
grown crazy with sorrow & all
the beauties of old—oh each poet’s a
beautiful human girl who must die.
******
“Each poet’s a beautiful human girl who must die”, but not necessarily their dancing flowers and juicy fruits….
I often wonder if I’d been a good father to a daughter. I think LOs daughter was the closest I ever came. I wanted a babygirl. I love our two boys … but I wonder.
It’s a totally different ballgame with a Girl. Nothing like raising a boy. My Father-in-law raised 5 Daughters. I swear he died a Saint. I couldn’t do it..
Adam,
Daughters can be a lot of fun.
My daughter takes more after me in many ways and my son takes more after my wife. My daughter and I share interests in things like mythology, metaphysics, the occult, tarot, and things than either my wife and son do. My daughter introduces me to things like contemporary music. My daughter shares my atrocious penmanship. My son’s and my wife’s penmanship is gorgeous.
My daughter introduced me to feminist novels like Madeline Miller’s “Circe” which offer a perspective of Greek mythology from the women involved. I really like them. At the end, I told LO #4 that Circe reminded me of her. I told LO #4 that it took Circe a long time and it wasn’t easy for her but in the end all her efforts pay off.
Some of the things my daughter exposes me to don’t appeal to me much but some of them are really cool. I think you’d have done just fine with a daughter.
Adam,
I think you’d spoil your daughter all the way to the Moon, if she dared to be born by you 👧.
She’d pull and spin your nose around the entire globe 🌍 with your hearty laughing inside 🥰
MJ
From the father’s that I know that have girls, children or adults, say it is a very difficult task. When I told her that I always wanted a daughter the first time I said it, she goes “I raised two, no you don’t” lol Always made me laugh.
LE
Both our boys are “momma’s boys”. And limerence was ultimate determining event that made me realize they will take Momma’s side. Though our oldest looks more like me, and our youngest more takes after my wife’s side of the family’s gene, they are both more her in personality, but share my favorite hobbies and interests. So they both make for an interesting amalgam of the family.
Snow
I would totally spoil her. Not let her be a spoiled brat, cause I know plenty of father’s that excuse their daughters’ behavior like that; but I would spoil her in a healthy way. She’d be my princess … even though she’d probably take after her mother and be a tomgirl. Which is okay too.
Stories
Campbell McGrath
When the light goes out, and the book is set down
by the bedside, it all comes flooding in:
the story you are reading; the story of the day;
the understanding that it is a story, the day now past,
those ahead, the clock-hand sweep of time;
that you are the hero of your own story;
that it will end in death but along the way come
triumphs, misadventures, nuptials, tears;
that the story contains several plots and connects
to countless others; that you will never read
all the books collected on your shelves
but as long as you breathe the hero lives,
pages will be turned; that stories keep us alive;
that stories end—the tale of the drunken shoemaker,
the tale of humankind—all stories,
however beautiful, ingenious or corrupt;
that fables are forgotten, myths corrode, gods
vanish with the languages that named them;
that darkness swallows the world, as in legend,
but night in turn is vanquished by dawn;
that even the sun, whose radiance authored
life’s unpaginated complexity, will someday
dwindle to extinction. Or so the story goes.
******
Each of us “ghosts” here is a HERO, writing our story, telling our LE joys, pains, hopes, getting innumerable sympathetic/empathic readers, and some invaluable feedbacks. Crafting posts itself can serve as a vehicle for therapeutic effect, healing process, personal transformation and hopefully renewal in our uniquely shared journey.
Let LwL adding its eclectic, beneficial colors in your life canvas! 🖼️
🐦🔥
Hi all,
I haven’t read much here, only very short glances here and there, haven’t managed to read Teikas post or watch Dr Ls video, I do apologize and will read/watch next year…
I just want to put something down in writing to affirm it, now being the time for new year‘s resolutions.
I‘m out of limerence at the moment, slight disappointment/adjustment problems with XLO not on a limerent base anymore, and now I have to deal with the danger of getting limerent again, since I am prone to crushes here and there that could develop into limerence if not stopped.
My mind seems to have a mind of his own and cannot stop thinking about „shining objects“ (quote LaR) here and there , thankfully it stops after a while of NC, but it’s not easy to turn off. So I decided to not turn it off but let it pass through, but control my actions.
I give myself the soft rule not to initiate. Sounds easy but I think here is the key- in my last LEs I did some active stuff to further connection, for the fun of the hunt or out of curiosity, or later because of limerence. When there was positive reaction, it furthered the limerence. But what if I would have remained passive? Maybe it would have died down, because there wouldn’t have been a chance for positive reactions. I think a part of the attraction of my LOs for me was their staying aloof a bit while still fancying me. Men who are openly interested seem not to strike a chord with me, there needs to be the slight uncertainty and tension.
If I manage to keep my hands still at a glimmer, it could be the key.
I know myself, I cannot be distant or unfriendly to a glimmer, and I allow myself some passive eye contact and reaction, but no real initiative, and I‘ve got the feeling that that might be enough. I will see how much of my LEs was of my own making and how much won’t happen if I just remain passive.
That’s my one resolution concerning limerence prevention (among others about health etc🙄)!
Do you guys have NewYears resolutions regarding limerence or do you not do New Year’s resolutions since one can make decisions any time of the year?
Anyway, I wish you all a brilliant New Years Eve and a good slide into 2025, as we say here!
Nice update Mila. Keep up the good work. I’ve decided on no resolutions this year. I can’t think of one I ever followed thru with and since I’m getting older, I don’t think I really care anyway..
Me LE is pretty much on the backburner now. She’s nice to think about and she will probably always make me emotional but it doesn’t consume me as it once did and I’m trying to make peace with whatever is left of it.. You’re right about decision making. It really can be done any time of year, so we’ll see what happens.. I like to believe if God wills it, it will happen..
Ooh, Mila this post sounds a bit close to ‘purposeful living’ …
Agree with you and MJ that resolutions can be made any time of year. It amuses me the significance that people attach to the 365th day of the earth’s spin around the sun in terms of their decision making!
Your ‘no real initiative’ idea sounds really good though. I think I’ll draw from it for something to ‘reduce initiative’ (I need to think what, but it can be done in small steps, some of which I’ve already done, but can do more). Actions to prevent or reduce initiative / initiation should ultimately reduce the oxygen supply that LEs need to thrive, brick by brick. Initiation activities do the opposite – give fuel. Simple choices but with big consequences. I really like your determination to stay limerence free from now on! But yeah, those damn shiny objects, huh?
🌟🪙✨️💫
Hey Mila & all,
Happy New Year everyone! Hope you are all going to get what you need or be happy to move on, should that be required, LE-wise….
I am really happy to hear that you have a strategy, Mila, to address any new Glimmers. I think you are wise to have one and you are dead right to use the opportunity of your current headspace for thinking about what triggered past LEs.
The thrill of the chase that you mentioned sure rings recognition bells with me. Who could disagree that the dance of flirting and move/countermove is so much fun? Yet us married folks havent had any of it for decades, which is just a sad situation for many of us. And in some ways, refusing that seems like just giving up? In my own case, remembering back to single flirting days, the more “micro” and ambiguous each move / countermove was, the better I liked it because it was like a puzzle to work out and obsess over. Its interesting, isnt it, how barriers in limerent events create a similar dynamic?
I begin to see what was missing from life and so attractive in my own LE (though other triggers like trauma and needing to break out of a rut might have been more decisive).
In answer to your question about NY resolutions, I am pretty sure this LE was a one-time only thing, so, resolution-wise, I just need to stay resolved to recovery from the present LO. I never reached out once over the holidays and seem to have overcome the holiday pining by now [somewhat surprised that this was still there this year]. And let’s see what happens when he hyperactively gets back in contact about work in the NY. I sometimes conduct thought experiments on how and why this one guy has been the object of so much thought, obsession, addiction, energy, etc. and how he would feel to know about that. I think that he probably thinks “women are mysterious and strange” or something, like several of the guys (MJ, Adam, LaR) on here have remarked from time to time 🤣.
Hi Mila,
I can relate to your being prone to crushes and limerent experiences. When I finally was on the downward end of my last experience, something happened that usually doesn’t happen: I had two other potential glimmerers that I could feel my limerent brain wanted to “pursue” or allow to grow. I felt the initial sparks and joy of certain conversations and attention, but because I had just learned about limerence and wanted to prevent it (I was still married), it took all my strength to deny myself from letting it go any further.
Ironically, it was the journaling of this experience that ultimately ended my marriage …
… nonetheless! And more ironically, now that I am not married, and can freely date, I have zero limerence. Of course, I am not trying to say marriage is the cause of limerence — but for me, already being prone to crushes or idealization/soulmate thinking, marriage was the barrier that enhanced the unbearable limerence experiences.
My goal is not to never become limerent again; my goal is to handle it better when or if it does happen again, and to acknowledge and treat it more logically rather than emotionally. Because, I do want to be married someday. I don’t feel I am meant for singleness. But next time — if there is a next time — I will be better equipped to handle it and be honest with my spouse if I start to have intrusive thoughts about a particular person.
It’s like anything: the more you practice, the better you get at it! The more I practiced preventing the glimmer phase to grow, the easier and quicker it stopped and the quicker I escaped the personal hell of limerence.
💙
Hi Mila and all,
great to read these up-dates, which are encouragingly in the right direction to the LE exit door.
Seems that there some common themes on the thrill of the chase, the ‘alive feeling’ that glimmers and subsequent limerence brings.
This prompted me to be reflect on this myself, and whether my LO enjoys this thrill and he certainly does a lot of micro ambiguous moves (phrase coined by Bewitched) to the point I missed many of the intents completely. Drives me crazy.
You want to meet me? then straight out ask !
I guess I liked the excitement, knowing nothing will actually happen due to layers of ‘safety’ barriers, but then suddenly realising you’re in too deep, swept along deep into the latter phases of limerence.
Today I re-read this old blog ‘playing with fire’ which I used to recommend to newcomers in early stages :-
https://livingwithlimerence.com/playing-with-fire/
I’m personally not a serial limerent and hope not to have another LO, but generally speaking I think acknowledging and accepting if one is a thrill seeker is a driving force in the limerence.
And if so, to find other things that bring a similar thrill, excitement, even sense of danger.
LaR, I think this is a bit different to purposeful living, it’s probably more selfish/ indulgent.
Therefore, to answer the New Year’s resolution question, I’m going to look at a few (legal) things and revisit some old hobbies. My SO may not up for it, so be it. And I’ve got to try to do these things for myself and not to impress LO ! Sigh.
Best wishes to all for a fantastic 2025 !
Hi everyone,
Thanks for your replies!
MJ, you sound good to me today!
I wish you that your LE fades into background even more and that your new year brings you new friends, happy surprises and a lot of strength.
Lim-a-Rant,
sorry to hear that NC is hard, but you know at least it’s temporary, and I think really small resolutions like limiting initiative a bit might be good steps for you now? Sometimes feasible small things are more helpful than any big decision we won’t be able to follow through. I wish you a happy new year and that you will manage to change back to a limerence-free but warm friendship!
Bewitched,
„ And in some ways, refusing that seems like just giving up?“
That’s the problem, it feels a bit like giving up youth, attractiveness, excitement for a mature, wise but boring and a bit dried up stance.
But maybe there’s a way to enjoy a bit of feeling attractive and wanted without diving headlong into limerence.
Congratulations on feeling ok about NC. I think you‘ll handle LO‘s hyperactive ways in the new year well.
I wish you even more steps towards recovery and friendly contact but equanimity towards your LO!
Limerent nurse,
It’s so interesting that limerence vanished as soon as you were single. I can absolutely imagine that being the case, suddenly perspective is put right.
How do you stop intrusive thoughts in the glimmer phase? I cannot stop them somehow, I’m still dependent on having no or low contact etc.
I wish you very much a new, real love with or without limerence for the new year! And if not, then a lot of fun and no pain in living the single life!
Imho,
I‘m naturally curious which hobbies or activities you mean. I cannot think of anything giving similar thrills as this special kind of chase and excitement, so any hint appreciated.
I wish you a happy new year with new old hobbies diverting you from limerence and LO being a happy but distant presence in your life who fades down to a sort of happy memory/friend?
I‘m babbling here because I managed to get a bit ill and my brain is a bit foggy.
It’s dinner time now- I wish you all the best and whatever makes you peaceful and happy in 2025!
Hi Mila,
I was able to get over two limerent spells because no contact was forced upon me both times by the fact that the coworkers in the experiences eventually left the company.
Now, the second part to that was me also choosing to delete their numbers and any conversations/contact that was had. Then, I would journal, meditate and wait out the intrusive thoughts. Once I discovered logically “these are just intrusive thoughts/feelings/pain” I no longer attached meaning to them. I don’t know how long it took, but somewhere within probably 6 months from the last limerent contact did they fade enough to be noticeable.
With the two glimmerers, another left the company, and one still works there but low-contact due to job type. I contacted both LO 2 and glimmerer 1 after divorce; had coffee and conversation with the glimmerer, but nothing came of it, and LO 2 communicated through text he was already seeing someone else. Both provided some closure to the events without any more limerence.
I would never contact LO 1; we had very little in actual common, besides chemistry.
I met some new people in these last few months without limerence forming. I now have experience to know when I am in limerence, and when I am not. I hope unwanted limerence is a thing of my past.
💙
Congratulations, LN! Very encouraging, healthy relationship stories for me!
Happy New Year!🎊🎆
Hi Limerent Nurse,
thanks, that actually helps, especially the bit about waiting it out and not attaching meaning to intrusive thoughts.
It’s crazy how the mind is looking for new toys, and now I‘ll try to let those thoughts just come and go and not take them too seriously.
Happy new year!
But LE,
what would music be without the sidemen?;)
I insist on a performance of „More“ on the oboe in the Inn. I can manage basic chords on the piano.
Hi Mila,
I hope you are not too ill and getting some good rest.
Hmm, I can’t really share the thing I do ( more like did) as I am very well known for it actually. And you know what, this is ironically probably one of the things that LO found most attractive about me.
Search for exciting sporting activities as there are lots of activities and sports out there, and as we are not getting any younger I suggest to give them a go.
Does not need to be extreme, but try something that scares you a bit but do it anyway.
I promise you are more able to do more than you think and the thrills, highs and sense of achievement is incredible!
Hi Imho,
Now I am really curious!😂do you mean you are a celebrity or do you mean you would be recognizable by your environment?
But of course you cannot reveal it if it makes you recognizable. Does it have something to do with water sports?;) don’t answer.
I‘m not that much into extreme stuff or scary stuff. I never saw the appeal of bungee jumping or freefall towers on fun fairs, or casinos, for that matter, I’m not a „no risk no fun“ person..
Not sure if I will get some benefit out if it other than being scared if I try something that scares me..
Hi Mila,
Yes I cannot say more except it’s not watersports! If it was watersports then LO would have been even more into me ! 😂
It doesn’t need to be crazy extreme like bungee jumping but just something a little out of of your comfort zone but still achievable, maybe scuba diving, cold water swimming, climbing, long distance hiking, to name just a few so many things out there to get the heart, mind and body racing….
Happy New Year my friend x
Hi Imho,
I also don’t like swimming and am afraid of deep waters😂I’m quite a ninny!
I do know and appreciate what you mean, but I‘m afraid for all these things I have to raise my fitness level in a basic way first, otherwise it would end in back pain like all tried activities that are a little bit out of my comfort zone before. That’s my goal for this year too, to build some strength.
Long-distance-hiking is actually the only thing you named that calls out to me🙈but that’s a problem of time.
My goal is to stick to a few exercises my Physio gave me for quite a while and also go running, and then try some more challenging stuff strengthwise. For me, small steps might be better now in the fitness department..,
But thank you so much for the suggestions, and I wish you a happy journey revisiting your old hobby!!
Mila,
Ninny is such a great word !
I guess the thrills don’t need to come from doing something physical, it could be acting, singing, writing a lusty romance novel – ha ha!
Maybe I will take up an instrument to play to you all at the Amoors Inn when I get good enough!
Best of luck with your fitness plan and building your core strength, which is also what I’m focussing on.
Hi Imho,
Nobody wants to hear me singing, including me, but now I get what you mean.
I might try something to do with dancing, something I’m not extremly talented at either, but that might give me a bit of a thrill of the sort you recommend.
Yes please, play us some tunes on your piano, clarinet or guitar whenever you are ready! Or maybe percussion!
Imho,
So what instrument would you like to play at the Amoors Inn? I’d quite like to form a folk band. However, following the welder’s calamitous open mic effort (when his voice was strangely high pitched 🔐), there are calls in some quarters that we should make the joint classier – so maybe some kind of jazz instrument? Maybe negotiate with Mila to be your lyricist?
We’re keen to take bookings, starting with this and the Amoor Pianoman MJ.
Anyone else out there in LwL got an instrumental talent they want to bring tp the Inn? (Sorry. That is meant literally. Just no way not to make it sound like innuendo)
I take oboe lessons. I do a mean intro to “It Was a Very Good Year,” “The Sweetest Thing I’ve Ever Known,” and “Don’t Let The Sun Catch You Crying.”
My signature songs are “Strangers in the Night” and “More” (one of the best limerence songs ever).
Keep it in the middle octave with no more than 2 sharps or flats and I can probably cover you for 3-4 measures.
L.E.,
Considering the dubious treatment of your two zombie-fleeing descendants by people connected to the Inn – I would say that’s a very generous offer from you 🤝
Please pop a few links to those songs on the LwL jukebox when you have a sec, so we can wet the patrons’ palates.
Oboe, very nice, one of my favorite instruments.
As requested:
“It Was A Very Good Year” – Frank Sinatra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydcUaTpiHgQ
This song has a very interesting history. It was originally written for The Kingston Trio.
“The Sweetest Thing I’ve Ever Known” – Juice Newton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMdDCtCba7A
“Don’t Let The Sun Catch You Crying” – Gerry and the Pacemakers (1964)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHM35l_1BDk
“Strangers In The Night” – Frank Sinatra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd_3EkGr0-4
“Something in your eyes was so inviting… Something in your smile was so exciting…”
“More” – Andy Williams (1964)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw-EDPuPNR8
Those two songs are the only 2 songs I can play completely by ear. I asked my music teacher of all the songs, why those 2? He said when a song resonates with you, you just pick it up.
I tried “More” at my second recital. At the time, my ambition far exceeded my ability (the gap has closed but still exists) and it was a disaster. Fortunately, there was a professional pianist accompanying us at the recital. When I floundered, he just kicked in and took over and nailed the song. I wanted to stop playing to listen to him. My teacher commended me for continuing to muddle through it and said that in retrospect, he should have probably tried harder to dissuade me.
The owner of the music store said that she heard stuff coming out of me that she never expected to hear from an oboe. My teacher said that there are two basic kinds of musicians, concert players and side men. He says that I am the latter.
But LE,
what would music be without the sidemen?;)
I insist on a performance of „More“ on the oboe in the Inn. I can manage basic chords on the piano.
(Replied in the wrong place before)
Yup … I can love you MORE than he can. I can love you LONGER than he can. I can be MORE to you than he can. I have never loved someone MORE than you. I can provide for you MORE than he can. I can preside MORE than he can. I can protect you BETTER than he can. More, more, more until you can’t even in your head see any reality in a possible relationship because your promises are drowned in the idealization of limerence.
Now I need a drink after that …. 6 more hours of the work day left ugh
L.E.
I wish so much that I’d grown up with your type of songs… then there would be no Amazon armor on me at all… The tone was named in COO as “the unhealthy, Bourgeois sentimentality”… now you understand why I call it “Inhuman Red culture”?
All your songs here are so sentimentally sweet, especially “Strangers in the night”, just what I needed after the torturing 36 hours followed by big nightmare!
Thanks, you red-hair chaser! 🥂
Snow
How about this? I discovered this song after she left. I listened to it a lot and while it was torture, this song helped me to never reach out to her, if only for her sake and not mine. This song has 3.7 billion! views. It’s very beautiful and sentimental.
Let Her Go — Passenger
https://youtu.be/RBumgq5yVrA?si=X2YYpR2fosNKkX9P
Snow/L.E
Can you use BBC Iplayer on your side of the pond? I think it’s a long shot. But if yes, I will have a musical viewing suggestion for you both.
Adam,
I’ve heard your song before, but didn’t know all the words…
I ponder hard here and still find something puzzling: your idealized Her is out there; my idealized “him” is within me — the Phantom, not the fleshy, flawed xLO out there.
If your “her” is your external star/light, mine is my internal muse that I am in charge to feed and nurture. As long as my muse is alive, I feel “high”, self-generating more Agape for others and life, (instead of sinking in sweets or bottles). LaR gets me on this. Whether separating/severing the mask of 👽 from the Phantom is necessary is still remaining question.
Snow,
“I wish so much that I’d grown up with your type of songs”
It’s a legacy of my evil step-mother. She loved crooners. She always had this stuff playing. I was 8 years old when Andy released “More.”
I remember my parents taking me to see The Ink Spots when they played my old hometown because they couldn’t find a baby sitter. It was at a dinner theater. The place had these kind of chairs https://i.pinimg.com/originals/80/d5/c1/80d5c18684755374f8de94ae23f7ba38.jpg. I fell asleep in one. My father told me that he saw Nat King Cole perform.
My mother’s taste ran to Country and Western from the 50s and early 60s. Maybe that’s where I got my affinity for Outlaw Country.
I saw Sinatra, Dean Martin, and Sammy Davis perform in March, 1988. It was the last real date I had with LO #2.
I’ve been an incurable romantic most of my life.
LA,
I’ll see what I can find out about BBC iPlayer.
I delayed my response in regard to New Year’s resolutions a couple of days ago. But now that talk came to musical instruments, I have to admit learning one has been on my list forever. Maybe 2025 is the year?! What would be an easy instrument to start with? 😉 I also seem to have to put War and Peace on my reading list. Is it much more of a drudgery than e.g. Crime and Punishment? I’m still working on that!
Speaking of Imho’s “do something that scares you” challenge – I might have a useful one for MJ, or someone else, to try… When I was trying to get myself to stop texting LO, I made a pact with myself that I had to flirt with at least one other person that day (shop clerk, man/woman/child, whoever) before I could text him. That was to ensure that he was not my only source of validation.
Trifles,
Clarinet should be pretty easy, or bassoon, or guitar!
String instruments (like violin etc) are hardest, I guess.
„Crime and Punishment“ is great, very intense and oppressive, it impressed me much, but don’t take me as advisor, I used to read all sort of heavy stuff, I like it.
Interesting challenge for MJ! What do you mean by flirting if you say it doesn’t matter if it’s a child or woman? Be nicer than average? I already wonder how to customize that challenge for me, it might distract me from shiny objects.
Trifles, Mila, Coffeehouse
I think if you just go ‘one level up’ from the normal effort you make with someone / feel like making, that’s usually doing a bit of good to ourselves and the person.
Like today a guy came to deliver shopping. I was super scruffy, hardly awake and would really rather not have interacted. But I ended up having a really random and funny chat with him about his observations about how long new year ‘Veganuary’ resolutions (don’t) last according to what he sees on his delivery round, and how all vegans miss cheese. Who wouldn’t miss cheese?
I have no idea if that’s what Trifles meant, but I think we are always capable of doing one level better and trying to find a way to cheer people and ourselves up a bit.
[And now I’m thinking about instruments too!]
This is my first new year as an active LwLer, and I am very impressed at how this community is encouraging all sorts positives in people on issues nothing to do with limerence. I am really glad I blundered into this place. It is rare/unheard of (for me anyway) to find a group online anywhere that is this supportive 😊
Mila, good question. I thought of putting “flirt” in quotation marks. I mean basically what LaR said. It can be something very small, just paying someone a little extra attention, making a small joke to a child (adults as well), or just putting a little twinkle in my eye when I talk to someone. Usually it makes things nicer for both so it’s worth the effort. I know people who are naturals at this flirting (I’m not!), and they usually get lots of free stuff – so, worth it! 😉
Yes, I found the mood in Crime and Punishment intense and oppressive (good description!), but I just tired of all the characters and the seemingly slow pace. Now it’s sat on my night stand so long, I don’t know if I can jump back in or if I have to start over!
It’s good that you mentioned guitar, because it’s actually the instrument that I’d like to learn, but they say to start with the ukulele. We’ll see… 😁
… And now I am picturing myself playing the bassoon – or the French horn! – in the Amoor’s jazz combo…
Next New Year’s eve?
Trifles,
Just want to say that “War and Peace” is centered around 3 Upper, aristocratic families with a huge arrange of personality, their friends, associates, relatives, etc. The background is French war led by Napoleon invading Russia and how those females are involved in the war, There are a lot of scenes of ballrooms, living halls, bedrooms, battle ground, prisons, innocence, births, wounds, deaths, rebirths… etc… you’d be never bored with the variety; it’s not nearly as intense or “gloomy” as “Crime and Punishment” — the Dostoevsky’s work I haven’t began.
I like BBC’s miniseries on “War and Peace” best (before I well liked Russian one as well. Stay away from Audrey Hepburn’s Hollywood two-hour version — two short! )
Good evening you Beautiful Amoor Patrons.. My name is MJ..
Many of you know me from my pointless rants about a beautiful Co-Worker I loved so dearly and never got to know..
I’d like to sing and play this for all of you now and dedicate it to “her”
This one is for you LO..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR9vjxQEaCI&pp=ygUbam9obm55IGFjZSBwbGVkZ2luZyBteSBsb3Zl
MJ,
I am actually dancing with “Pledging My love” , it’s so sweet!
Now, I’m put in more of F phase…
How are you feeling this evening?
@Snow,
Feeling better than I deserve. And a little sentimental.
As you can tell, that one always brings it out. But it’s honest..
You did it! Nice work Mila! I love that you intend to accept your feelings and control your actions.
Here is my New Year’s resolution… I intend to be more punctual.
I’ve said it, now I must work on my punctuality.
Like you, I’m barely skimming through the comments lately. I did watch Dr L’s videos and they were great!
@Snow,
Thanks! I am glad they encouraged you! It’s still New Years Eve where I am at, but Happy New Year to you!
Hi Lovisa,
Great to hear from you! I hope you are fine and the situation with your sister got better or solved?
I‘m quite punctual, so that’s not going into my resolutions, but I really need to watch my sugar intake now, and ramp up movement, sports etc.
Have a great and happy new year!
MJ,
Thanks for confirming you’re all man. I had no doubt bro!
Snow,
Hope you enjoyed the dinner party and have a nice NYE ahead.
We could spin in loops on the ‘identities’ point. It is undeniably fascinating. But – I have no better answer than ‘anyone could be anyone but I still choose to trust my intuition’. Kind of innocent unless proven guilty! If I didn’t do that (choose to trust people) then I wouldn’t see a whole lot of point in me being here. Less than 10% of the message in real communication is verbal / the words – but that <10% is all we have to work with in LwL land.
The opinion should always be more important than the person delivering it. I think, though, that it isn't always how it works, even here in ghost land. I will gladly listen to opinions of any poster here. However, the history (even ghostly) that I have built with various individuals means their points *may* carry extra weight.
There is no need to apologise for speaking harshly. I just have a few clarifying thoughts / questions – in a sense I am trying to join dots between the bits you said, but I want to make sure I'm joining them as you intended. Let me try:
"It’s this attitude or psychology that makes you suffer MORE the dark side of your LE […] if you change your attitude or reaction, your pains could/would be reduced. In my eyes, you’re suffering MORE than necessary." (And other similar bits about my LE circumstances vs others)
Do you mean – you think I could be more grateful or appreciative, given that (after 18 months) I still have the nearby and friendly / accessible presence of my LO/MFF in my life, as well as my having my SO? You feel that because some others, yourself included, don't have either of those perks, I should be more grateful for what I do have, not complain about what I don't?
There is much more I'd like to explain about why my situation creates its own difficulties and pain. But I want to confirm first that I have the above summary of your thoughts fairly acccurate. I have not said all of it before, though other posters here who are or were limerent while with an SO will understand it well enough, without me even needing to say more.
In summary – both of these things can be true at the same time:
1. My LE creates its own individual challenges that, on a limerence support site, I am allowed to discuss and vent about
2. I can acknowledge (as a big picture admission, and then explicitly in my words to individual posters – and over time I have done plenty of both) that I know many of their situations are or could be worse. All that without straying into the dreaded "sympathy" – just treating each person and case as an individual and acknowledging difference.
LaR,
Not something that I’m trying to be too critical of you about. I actually do enjoy your banter with Snow sometimes. And while you have your share of struggles with your LE (who doesn’t?) you otherwise seem somewhat grounded and in control over it. Imo.. 😄
To quote you..
“You think I could be more grateful or appreciative, given that (after 18 months) I still have the nearby and friendly / accessible presence of my LO/MFF in my life, as well as my having my SO? You feel that because some others, yourself included, don’t have either of those perks, I should be more grateful for what I do have, not complain about what I don’t?”
The recent drama trip I’ve been on with Lady Friend, while trying to diffuse LO thoughts to a degree, has been challenging on my emotions to say the least. Lest we not forget, holiday time can really suck. I’m also still struggling to reach my Daughter, taking care of my aging Father and attempting to maintain sanity with my fellow Brethren, without wanting to snap on them for just being human.. I’m afraid I’m becoming too crotchety with all this seemingly negative outlook/energy I have. Over what has simply happened and what I’ve helped create to make happen. I’m not in a very happy place. But a metaphor I keep coming back to is strangely enough, coffee..
I go to the store, I am by myself as I usually am and couples are everywhere. I don’t know their status. I don’t know if they’re together. They could be Brother and Sister for all I know, but what I do know is what I see. I see someone with somebody. Getting along and enjoying the company of one another. In other words (and in my head, I say to myself) at least they’re getting a cup of coffee together. (Coffee-As the metaphor I use to signify their together-ness and relationship) I adopted this silly mantra because over the last 6 months, I’ve been reaching for the stars, just to do anything with Lady Friend outside of work and she simply won’t agree to it. No matter how kind or light I’ve tried to keep things, the Woman is as stubborn as a mule about seeing me outside of work in really any capacity.(Other than the time I met up with her, so I could build her New Nephews train table) She won’t even agree to meet me for a simple cup of coffee. (Hence the metaphor that has been born by me, out of this dumbfoundes-ness.) It truly has me irritated and sad. I really have not wanted this to turn into a limerence thing with her but lately my breakdowns over her have been very familiar to LO breakdowns. I’m so very tired of feeling like everything is so dark and depressing. Lady Friend wasn’t supposed to make me feel this way and yet somehow she’s managed to $#!+fit her way right in there..
Eventually I’m going to update here what has transpired within the last 30 days, as I pretty much know why that is now and the efforts she is making to keep from hurting me. Basically it’s hanky-panky on her part with another Co-Worker, but it’s really quite ugly and much uglier than I ever thought or imagined. So I’m really still trying to give her the benefit of the doubt here, without being too critical. It is however making things clearer to me about who she is and it makes sense in a lot of ways, why she is this way.
I probably didn’t read completely everything you and Snow were chatting about up there, but if you have SO or LO or whoever in your life to chat up, do things with or just be in the general presence of, (to infact maybe even get that cup of coffee with) then yes I would say be more grateful of that.
Remember there are people like me out here, struggling just to get that simple cup of coffee with someone, and then maybe to the store afterwards, to pick up some bananas..
Just sayin.. 😑
MJ,
I was in your shoe with 👽, so I completely understand what you’re going through, and without knowing my specifics, you understand my message to LaR….
Aside from specific cases or away from limerence, a lot of people, more in the West, take whatever they already have for granted, and are unable to put others, or just imagine themselves in possible worse situations (blind fate can come at any given moment), thus they not grateful ENOUGH, which intensify their “(il)legitimate” pains….
Thank you for your post, which just helped kill the last bit of my itchy hand!
Have a peaceful New Year Eve and happier New Year Day soon!
You’re welcome Snow.
Hope your itchy hand gets better..
Thank you also for the New Years greetings..
Same to you..
MJ,
Point very well noted.
You have been so very solid towards me since the day I blundered into this place. I won’t forget that, or who replied nicely to my first ever post. And of course that makes me listen to your point. I’m sorry if anything I have said has been triggering.
What I was saying to Snow is that (I believe) I have never hinted at being ignorant of others’ situations. I think if you look back at any comment I have ever made on LWL, that I have been pretty consistent about that since my day zero here.
I have held high hopes for you and LF. I am really gutted to hear about what you said above. I will leave saying any more until and unless you want to discuss it. But please know I am here and willing if and when you ever want to talk more, with no judgement. Or just to pour / hang out over a cognac.
As for my stuff, I am not sure what to say. Thank you for saying I seem level headed and mostly on top of it. In my actions, I am. In my head, sometimes the opposite forces create a total firestorm. I’m not going to do the wrong thing, but it’s hard sometimes. I am in a bad patch at the moment but I’ll get out of it and then be able to contain more of it to myself.
LaR,
Nothing was especially triggering my Friend. If anything, I’m the one that often feels so out of place in this forum because almost everyone seems to have a SO of some sort. I feel like I should probably apologize for perhaps coming across accusatory.. Not my intent.
I think it’s just lack of companionship and I am very hard on myself about it all the time. Sometimes just thinking I’m going insane. I have basically no life, between Dads stuff and having no interest in doing anything really. His issues take up an incredible amount of time, so it’s off to fantasy-land when I can get away from it. Unfortunately with LF, I had some hope. Now I don’t know what I have..
You’ve never been a poster here, not cognizant of others situations. I hope my post did not imply that. I was just reading your post up there with Snow and decided to add 2 cents. Or was it only a cent?? Oh who gives a $#!+??
I spent a lot of good years not being good to my SO, who really was a good Wife overall, that I snuffed the life out of. Due to EAs, PAs, you name it. Could not even begin to tell you what my marriage would have looked like if this limerence thing happened while I was still married. If it had hit me the same way, I think she definitely would have left, but maybe I’m wrong. Guess it doesn’t matter.
Whatever wisdom I can impart to someone that helps, then good for them I suppose..
I do enjoy your posts and appreciate your kind words over my LF drama. Think I will take you up on that talk with a double (maybe even a triple) on the cognac. By the time we’re done though, we might just end up finishing out the bottle. Since you’re in a bit of bad patch at the moment yourself, it sounds like a pretty decent idea, wouldn’t you say??
MJ,
There is no need to apologise, but thanks anyway. I didn’t find you accusatory. It’s just that I feel I am being told to appreciate what I already appreciate (not only by you). I must not be communicating it very well right at the moment.
You should continue to feel welcome here. Several of my other frequently spoken to LwL people don’t have an SO either. You are very well liked and cared for by the community here, I can tell that, and your contributions are always welcome and good.
I have just put a whole load of my stuff out there above, to answer Snow. I have never had a PA but have been hurt on the wrong end of it. I could never do it to SO. The EA thing is more blurry admittedly, but I do keep certain boundaries in place to stop the LE heading any further in that direction. I do feel guilty a lot, like I am emotionally cheating on SO. I do heed the warnings you give from how you were in your marriage, and I would not want to put myself or SO through that.
You can’t change your past, only learn from it. Try to beat yourself up less and think about yourself as you are now, not as you once were. I appreciate life feels a bit s**t at the moment. This new information about LF will take time to assimilate. I think Bewitched’s post of today has good suggestions for you.
Please keep talking to us. Yeah we can have triples on the rocks if you like – but given it is January and given your post yesterday, I think a strong long coffee or two would be even better?
Hi MJ,
About the coffee metaphor, you know that even partnered people get this from time to time. I do. I am not minimising it. When it happens to me, I put it down to a feeling of loneliness as, even inside a relationship, one can be lonely. The only reason I say this is because I think its not objectively real that people are partnered up and happy everywhere you look in the coffeeshop, but it feels that way when one is lonely. I have been lonely before when I was after having a row with an SO. (This happened more in my youth). Sometimes I felt that way when I was not in a relationship and looking for one. Being alone is better than a bad relationship, I think. But none of that helps you. The point I wanted to make was that you could tackle loneliness in your life and not worry too much about romance being the answer to that (I know you have v little time due to caring for your Dad)? A choir or something that uses your musical talent and interests? They do performances especially around Christmas and other holidays, which would mean not being alone. You have got to meet people half way in tackling loneliness.
Sorry if I overstep the mark, i worry about you.
Separately, I am sad to hear about LF, but, she never strung you along and I admire that much about her. If “women” in your life are causing pain and heartache, just maybe tackle loneliness with reaching out to “people” instead?
I have mentioned before that this is what I need to do myself. I realised that I dont get everything I need from my primary romantic relationship and its important to engage with and show care for others in my life. That includes family, friends, people at work, and internet friends too (like you!).
MJ, I hope 2025 gets better for you, my friend. We are all here when you need us.
@Bewitched,
You are so very kind to me. I always tell you that. Your post made me tear up. What’s wrong with you? Are not my tears ever supposed to stop falling?? Thank you for your words Dear. I don’t deserve such kindness.
I totally get where you are coming from concerning couples who appear happy but are not. I was there for many years myself when I was married. Over time now and especially since meeting LF, I have come to believe I don’t even care much about happiness anymore. I just want some sort of relationship, good or bad. I guess that makes me sound desperate, so I suppose I am.
What you mention about not necessarily looking so much for the romance angle, was kind of in line with how I was comparing relationships to coffee. At this point, I’ll pass on the romance, even deep friendship for simple friendship over a simple cup of coffee. Somebody to watch TV with now and then. We don’t have to be in love. I might even decide it’s ok to be walked all over.. I’ll take almost anything if it means I’m not always coming home alone.. The idea of relationship seems so out of this world to me anymore, that actually getting there possibly someday, might just cause me to pass out from accomplishing it. Yet in this moment, it feels so very impossible.
It’s not like I didn’t ever try to reach out to LF before (Like you mentioned above) but I would do it with a twist. Hoping she would enjoy all the nice things I was doing for her. I never did anything with an expectation of anything sexual. I was hoping she would realize this.
I ended up disclosing some feelings over a txt she sent, hoping I wasn’t thinking we were something more than just friends. So I replied back with some thoughts in the hopes she could maybe understand my angle better. I didn’t txt her saying I’m madly in love, but she didn’t really appreciate the sentiments I gave. It’s definitely changed our dynamic somewhat, but I’ve found that she is most likely a dismissive avoidant. Because when I was trying to talk to her about my txt, she totally shut down from me. Once I got off that subject and back on track talking about work, family and other stuff, she was way more relaxed and back to her old self. Even staring at me from across the way again and catching her smile at me. It warms my heart like a fire..
This however doesn’t change what else I know is going on with her now too. It’s very ugly and I’m still trying to figure out how to dumb it down here and talk about it without going overboard. It’s really kinda f***** me up but it also isn’t surprising, given my rate of luck. It seemed all too good to be true for the longest time anyway, so it turns out I was right.
Thanks for your well wish for the new year and your support. I do appreciate your friendship. It’s good to know people like you care for imbeciles like me who don’t get the female brain. Don’t you go anywhere just yet because I think I’ll definitely need you again.. 😉
Sending you a hug MJ.
I appreciate it’s very hard. I also encourage you to find something just for you outside of work and caring responsibilities where other people are present, as Bewitched suggested, choir or an exercise class etc.
Just an hour a week can make a difference to connect with new people and get a new energy. Think of it as self-care, you simply must make the time for yourself. I literally forced myself to do that as I’m also a bit stuck in my own head and struggling with many life problems – that I’ve not really shared before.
I made myself go to an exercise class recently, the exercise is not really my thing tbh but it was local, so not too time consuming or committing. The instructor was welcoming and gave me a first free taster lesson. I was unsure and a bit nervous but everyone in the class was nice and of course my body benefitted which in turn helps the mind.
The instructor is a new person in my life, from a different background and she is just so amazing that her energy and zest for life is infectious and makes me feel uplifted, and that is even before I start the class.
Just thought to share that.
Thank you @Imho.
I appreciate the suggestion. Not a terrible idea but can’t say I’ll rush out and do it tomorrow. I’ve thought about something like a group therapy setting somewhere. Yet, I probably shouldn’t do that because I’d most likely only be there to meet Women down on their luck and that’s probably not a healthy combination for me right now.
MJ,
A cautionary tale if you happened to read the brief history of my main relationships I wrote to Snow yesterday … I met narc xSO in such a group therapy setting, while trying to deal with various issues including the previous xSO! Why the heck did I pursue that?! After narc xSO, I ended up back in therapy for an awful lot longer … two people in that setting for that reason just ain’t gonna attach well 😅
The start of my more sustained recovery (from depression as well as from the linked effect of this awful xSO) was, though, to go and do lots of things slightly outside my normal comfort zone, eg volunteered, joined adult ed classes on completely new topics, that sort of stuff. Even a bit of solo travel. I started to meet people (including but not limited to women) much more naturally and with less pressure through these activities (I was never good at meeting women when younger). In the end I met SO through those networks, without it even being a goal to find an SO at the time. Relying too much on work to meet people can be a minefield (although 📣📣 hypocrite alarm sounds in relation to the obvious).
Imho was writing yesterday ‘do one thing each day that scares you’. This doesn’t have to be an adrenaline sport or diving with the sharks – just shifting the comfort zone a little fraction. I know you feel down on yourself at the moment but once you have had more time to process the recent developments and readjust, maybe you can look at trying something new or reviving something old. Snow still wants you to play us some tunes at the Amoors Inn, remember?
Keep your chin up the best you can. And if you can’t, reach out to us.
MJ,
I didn’t want to say all this before (for a long time) for fearing that I’d sound inhuman or cruel, inconsiderate for where you are now and that I’d add more salt to your open wounds.
But in a similar boat, you and I (alike ghosts out there) need to remove from our mind this social or self imposed goal/pressure to find a mate wherever we go or whatever we do! It’s not something we (or anyone) could control and the pain becomes much worse when we constantly desire/search /expect it, when the fate plays her whimsical hand in other places.
As LaR points and life has shown, many times, one gets what the heart desires when the mind expects it least — that’s when/how 👽 dropped in my “forsaken” path! I do NOT regret this fate at all; otherwise there is NO way I can be where I am now 💪☺️❗️
With this “mating” pressure, we can’t truly LIVE (except merely breathe) here and now, even for a minute. We would easily sink back in our sorrows for the past errors. Everyone, has made at least one big mistake (if not more) in his or her life. However when one is able to let the past stay in the past, move on with our individually controllable life step by step, here and now, one can stand up again, taller, stronger, and more attractive. Trust me on this (without knowing all my life stories)❗️
It may sounds cruel, but I think readjusting our life purposes and focusing on small, concrete, daily goals would bring us out of LE or other life adversities.
Like LaR and I suggested before, can you pick up your piano playing again, for YOURSELF and L’Amoors (not to impress anyone else in your reality)❓
Our contentment is totally in our OWN 🤚 ✋❗️
The Cup of Life
https://youtu.be/8BkYKwHLXiU?si=gamkzdEvHqm3EDoq — La Cope de la Vida (Spanish)
Luckier and Happier year of 2025
Trilfes, Adam, LaR, MJ
I’m responding your posts in one big lump rambling here. Please bear in mind that I’m not in an arguing mood, and my primary goal is, while fully understand where you are emotionally, to try to help REDUCE your existing LE pains. Please forgive me (my ESL) if I sound preaching again, while my T is working strongly…
Trifles,
“Snow, that’s an interesting question. And one I commented on to TO. I was not being obnoxious, I just came across some scandalous celebrity news and joked to him (about his situation): “It could be worse”. To which he replied that it doesn’t make his situation any better. “
Again, I’m not trying to attack your TO, but one common MINDSET I see here and in reality, more in the West than the East — namely, overly self-focused/centered or superficially individual (different from Jung’s internal individualism or individuation). It’s dominantly about ME, ME, and ME, everyone else is second; my desires, my emotions, my deserved validations, my worldly possessions, and everyone else is on/to their own… As a result, Narcissism is on rise, sense of isolation getting stronger, depression, indifference, cynicism flick in many eyes of younger generation (much less in immigrants).
This mentality tends to compare with better situations but unwilling or unable to imagine what would happen if a bad luck suddenly strike on its bearer. What would/does happy “it could be worse” drop on your TO? I grew up with a philosophy and practice: to be content, one needs to compare with possible or existing worse situations, others’ or one’s own. It worked and still work in many Eastern nations. It shows on people’s faces in street.
“I think this is a question of F, feeling. Intellectually (T) knowing that someone has it worse, doesn’t unfortunately lessen our own feelings of distress, sadness, etc. “
Then imagine oneself having it worse. Who can guarantee some worse will never land on our head? T thinking definitely could influence F emotions. In COO, I witnessed that the former has killed the latter, unfortunately. Only by proportion, COO and the West seem to hold two extremes in terms of being content with what one already has and of accepting “fate/one’s lot”.
“We still feel those. “
True, but less or neutral for a Stoic.
“Even if from the outside we see someone as having it all – riches that they don’t even know what to do with, SO, kids, etc. – you can’t deny them the pains they feel about something.”
I don’t deny their pains, but a lot of those pains are excessive or even unnecessary. Their pains often spring from excessive desires, unwise mindset and “stupid” actions. That’s why few philosophers become millionaires (Marcus Aurelius inherited his title and wealth).
I know one “wise” billionaire who comes from almost poverty, who does not drink at all, eat moderate, keep fit, gets up at 5am every morning, read 2-3 hours on history or philology, get online only once a day (a phone talker), goes around to help “save” small companions or individuals in trouble… When he walked into his own high-tech firm (the best in the world), the receptionist did not recognize him as one of the two owners (humble to anonymity). He takes good care of his wife (together superficially) and kids but refuses to involve in any form of extramarital affairs. The only complaint he has is COO’s politics and he resists/fights with the system in his own ways.
Adam,
“Well as the saying goes; sometimes it takes the heart longer to accept what the mind already has. One can intellectually accept what happens while the heart still longs for it to be the way it was. I don’t think limerence helps that process quickly. Hence why we are all still here.”
I agree with you here, and limerence makes that process worse! But constant T could tell us that the situation could be worse and that to appreciate what we already have, and that we could truly, truly live “now and here” — every moment. I think if one has sit through a sudden death of a beloved person, one would truly understand what a “moment” of being alive or of being grateful means.
Your xLO is in a good hand now, so as a white-horsed knight with Momma and two grown sons, what are your concerns now? Why? How the situation could be better or worse?
LaR,
“Less than 10% of the message in real communication is verbal / the words – but that <10% is all we have to work with in LwL land.”
I shall remember this specific ratio to keep my rambling mind not straying too far…
“Do you mean – you think I could be more grateful or appreciative, given that (after 18 months) I still have the nearby and friendly / accessible presence of my LO/MFF in my life, as well as my having my SO?”
YES! I would be 90-99% content if I were in your shoes!
“You feel that because some others, yourself included, don't have either of those perks, I should be more grateful for what I do have, not complain about what I don't?”
It’s nothing to do with complaining here, but your internal attitude (Just like last time with your MFF — having that cynical attitude disqualifies her as your TRUE friend, by my standard). What one has in one’s own mind, whether openly expressing them or not, affects one’s mental/psychological states, adding/increasing or removing/decreasing metaphorical pains in one’s system.
“I have not said all of it before, though other posters here who are or were limerent while with an SO will understand it well enough, without me even needing to say more.”
This part I might not be empathic enough(not in LE w/ SO); however, we see enough grumbling, crumbling, relationship/marraige here with SO, yours is not even near that state. BE GRATEFUL you’re not in their shoes! I credit 👍 that you’ve done a lot of hard work to keep your relationship smooth sailing! ⛵️
[“In summary – both of these things can be true at the same time: 1. My LE creates its own individual challenges that, on a limerence support site, I am allowed to discuss and vent about]
Gee, You sometimes could misunderstand my points so amazingly! Is this about an allowance to discuss or venting about anyone’s LE? Feel free to say that you want to kill someone, I certainly can’t report you! If you haven’t spoken abut your truth mind, how could we even know how you feel or think? Vent or rant as much as you can here, it’s allowed and safe, if you can “face” lurking, faceless trolls…
What I have always aimed at is 🗣️ — one’s internal ATTITUDE and PSYCHOLOGY, which is hardest stuff everyone has to deal with, as stressed in DrL’s article, “playing with fire”, linked by imho earlier today. It’s about how to train one’s conscious and subconscious mind through habitual external actions and internal mentality — both T brain and concrete actions soon or later will affect F — strengthening or weakening heart!
[2. I can acknowledge (as a big picture admission, and then explicitly in my words to individual posters – and over time I have done plenty of both) that I know many of their situations are or could be worse. ]
Yes, you KNOW intellectually but emotionally/sensorily — that’s what my N tells me. You cannot feel/sense how MJ felt/feels in his situations, because you were never there previously, and you don’t and can’t imagine you could/would be there. It’s like you’d never know how a woman delivers a baby. You can sympathize, but not TRULY empathize with your F or N.
Okay, you can’t imagine your case to be worse, then let’s have a clear look at it again — (based on what you have told us)
1. You and SO are in a pretty good shape.
2. Your LE is 18month old, not 18 or 8 years.
3. Your MFF is reciprocating your desired friendship in scope and depth.
4. Your MFF is non-limerent type, so her possible LE reciprocation would not meet what your LE desires.
5. You’re not in LiS position, and you do not need/want to disclose.
6. You have only three/two-week NC, not even one month.
So what else could be better in your case to make you feel LESS pain ❓❓I’m not denying your pain over a short-term NC, and I acknowledge that you’re still in throe of your LE❗️
Without telling you all my lived/survived stories, I can attest that, without a genuine attitude towards life, with its unpredictable fate, synchronicity, individual and collective adversities, one, particularly I, could have been in a much, much more dire/miserable place internally or died externally….
I could genuinely “sound/appear” jolly/joyful to you while still carrying my own huge or small disappointments in life/limerence. But I’ve learned finally to rely on my own attitudes/mentality/psychology (all within my control) for my substantial contentment — an ongoing physical and spiritual practice combining Stoicism, Buddhism, Jungian philosophy, and more.
Like MJ, I used to feel sharp stinging in my heart when seeing couples walking in street hand-in-hand; nowadays, I quietly smile feeling joy for them. I feel love whenever I see dogs, and they immediately respond…. There are valuable and beautiful things (not a lot) in life one could genuinely appreciate and enjoy, even just passively watching.
By the way, I have to give Lovisa (who sounded having it all while I came from almost nothing background) a credit who has advocated strongly to be grateful to life in general, as one of mechanism to deal with limerence.
My self-compassion can’t stop my itchy hand, but my sympathy/empathy for MJ like limerents could kill itchiness on my figure…. If you can, please turn your eyes towards those more unfortunate (than you)limerencing souls, like Victor Hugo’s Hunchback!
If my idiot wifi comes back, I’m going to finish my binge on“War and Peace” (saw several different versions before), I just can’t help love Talstoy’s Count Pierre Bezukhov! Does such kind of nobel soul still exist in our era?
Outside it’s thundering now. I’ll be gladly drinking my Rose champagne by myself by midnight with your ghosts in my mind (along with Athena-damned and Aphrodite-protected 👽)❗️
Cheers, Amoor Gang!
Typo:
“Yes, you KNOW intellectually but NOT emotionally/sensorily enough— that’s what my N tells me here based on merely words.”
“ I can attest that, without a genuine gratitude towards life, “
****
LaR,
You’ve done more than anyone else in responding and comforting other and new ghosts here, don’t doubt whether I’ve seen it! But I couldn’t help feel there is more T talking there…. I don’t blame it — try you can until your next and next life, you’d never know a mother’s delivering pain!
So please relax, don’t feel quiet, self-defensive inside…. ☺️ None of us could be a “god-saver” to every existing, lamenting soul….
You already finished a nap or still keep L ‘Amoor open? I’ll be here for a while…
Cheer! 🥂
More typo 🧠🔨 —
“ What would/does happen if “could be worse” drop on your TO’s life? “
“ read 2-3 hours on history and philosophies”
“an ongoing physical and spiritual practice combining Stoicism, Buddhism, Jungian philosophy, IFS, Meditation, dancing, etc.”
…, like Victor Hugo’s Hunchback! If you can truly FEEL Hunchback’s genuine hopeless/unrequited love for Esmeralda, I think, you’d feel LESS pains in your current LE and NC period.
🥂
Snow,
Happy new year. I hope seeing in midnight was Ok.
I am also not in an arguing mood, and I don’t want to seem to reject your general point – for sure, I can work overall on being more grateful, and it would do me good.
“Yes, you KNOW intellectually but emotionally/sensorily — that’s what my N tells me. You cannot feel/sense how MJ felt/feels in his situations, because you were never there previously, and you don’t and can’t imagine you could/would be there. . It’s like you’d never know how a woman delivers a baby. You can sympathize, but not TRULY empathize with your F or N.”
You’re right, I will never *know* a mother’s birth-giving pain (or from before, what it is like to grow up in your COO). However, there are things you’ve assumed that I don’t or can’t know from lived experience, when in fact I have lived them.
When I tell you them, it will highlight the whole bigger discussion we’ve been having about how on LwL people only reveal parts of themselves. Here are some more parts of me I have not revealed before – parts I know through lived experience:
1. I know what a hopelessly unrequited LE felt like from when I was much younger.
2. I know what the pain felt like of the breakup of a 9 year relationship with the person who I thought was my one for life, after she cheated on me.
3. I know what it felt like – after that – to be completely single for five years because I was not ready (T or F wise) for anything else.
4. I know that my next relationship after that was with a narcissist
5. I know – as a result – what it is to hit rock bottom and feel severely depressed for close to a year.
6. I know what the recovery process from all of that felt like and involved – having to start again and climb back up from rock bottom in almost all aspects of my life (in fairness, family and many of my friends held constant throughout it, so I have not experienced isolation in that sense)
7. I know that I embraced current SO into my life quite soon into that process of (6), compared to the long gap of (3). And that although I am very mindful of things and apply plenty of T thinking, there are knock-on effects of that fact to this day.
It is fair to say (many years on from all the above) that I am in a different, infinitely better space, and doing pretty well in most aspects of my life. But ‘pretty well’ to me does not look like it does to many Westerners – not money, or material goods, or status symbols. ‘Pretty well’ to me looks like feeling content and not getting back to the bad places I’ve been to before. You see, I am not a sugar-coated Westerner with no struggles in my history.
I haven’t told you any of this wanting sympathy, honestly. I am reconciled with my past, and I am useless at taking sympathy anyway. I would be the worst patient (blame my parents!). I am telling you all this (and everyone else in this public space where I can hide as a ghost) just to *inform* you, and perhaps fill in some gaps in your assessment above of experiences that my F brain can and can’t empathise with.
Also – a note on me and SO. I have tried to explain bits of this to you before, but I am a bit stymied by not wanting to give away revealing details, and this bit of the story sails close to it.
In early 2023, SO and I had a life event which caused quite a deep and profound rift between us. Neither of us could accept the other’s perspective without compromising our own (nor be expected to). That remains so, though the importance of it has reduced, and it has knocked on into other areas between us. Although the relationship has *never* been smooth sailing (our mixture of character types and histories sees to that), there is also an awful lot of good in it, that made us deem it worth fighting for when the incident above happened. That fight – to overcome the said episode and get back to where we were, or hopefully someplace better – has more or less continued ever since.
And, of course, this is the same time period that is punctuated by my LE. I have obviously given that point a lot of thought and will leave you to draw your own conclusions – but let’s say I am not blind to cause and effect. How things got between SO and I in ’23 are probably 50-50 responsibility, but I obviously had and have a big role to play in the healing of that. The LE and all the thinking and guilt linked to it act as a frustrating interruption.
SO and I came into these Christmas holidays being pretty wound up and tense with each other, and we’ve been up and down throughout the holidays. I don’t think that we are at risk of breaking up, but there is still a lot to do to make things better and happier between us – your assessment of ‘smooth sailing’ is unfortunately not accurate. Just as Bewitched put it just now, even within a relationship it can sometimes feel lonely. And yes, in this respect as well as some other parts of the journey above, I count myself highly fortunate for having MFF in my life.
I continue to work on how to amalgamate all that to be most content.
So that’s some of the load carried by your cheery LwL barman. I don’t really want to dive deeper into it at the moment than that. That cheery side of my character is also true – I have not invented him. But they are different sides that speak at different times. Just please, I would ask that you don’t think that when I try to empathise with other LwL posters, I do it purely with my T brain and blind to the tougher parts of life, or how my situation compares to theirs. We all have our story.
LaR,
Happy new year of 2025! 🎆
My midnight was busy/rushed in mind, trying to get one poem with my resonant reflection posted exactly at 12am. Timing or date is somehow very important to me. I don’t know why I give them so much importance while caring less and less about symbolic holidays, either from the West or East. Every Sunrise is fresh and new, and every day is V-day supposedly for “ideal” couples, not just 2/14!
“I am also not in an arguing mood, and I don’t want to seem to reject your general point – for sure, I can work overall on being more grateful, and it would do me good.”
You did not reject any of my (perceived) impression in regarding to the NC pain you’re experiencing. I only wished that you could feel lighter, not as heavy as you hinted previously.
“However, there are things you’ve assumed that I don’t or can’t know from lived experience, when in fact I have lived them. “
Yes, you convinced me this time with your listed (more organized in one place), newly-revealed facts.
1. I know what a hopelessly unrequited LE felt like from when I was much younger.
I didn’t F-know it until this latest LE. However Hunchback of Nortre Dame, his suffering and nobel acts deeply captured a heart of 10 yrs old (told LE before) with zero knowledge of sexuality.
2. I know what the pain felt like of the breakup of a 9 year relationship with the person who I thought was my one for life, after she cheated on me.
That is indeed ghastly! I was cheated on after the engagement, and felt angry but not deeply hurt somehow (as a cptsd sufferer, I was always disconnected with my authentic feelings). I’m sorry to hear you’ve gone through that!
3. I know what it felt like – after that – to be completely single for five years because I was not ready (T or F wise) for anything else.
That’s very long for a man in his primal time.
4. I know that my next relationship after that was with a narcissist
Ouch, that must be heart-wrenching or fist-tightening experiences. I’m so proud that Dad verbally “punched” the first Narc, and I fist-punched 2nd one with no regret!
5. I know – as a result – what it is to hit rock bottom and feel severely depressed for close to a year.
When depression gets to its physical level, it’s scary — so uncontrollable by T brain.
6. I know what the recovery process from all of that felt like and involved – having to start again and climb back up from rock bottom in almost all aspects of my life (in fairness, family and many of my friends held constant throughout it, so I have not experienced isolation in that sense)
You were a bit luckier. My Dad and friends could not help much; few could understand my complex mindset (cptsd). I worked with therapists and pills, which helped somewhat for the time being.
7. I know that I embraced current SO into my life quite soon into that process of (6), compared to the long gap of (3). And that although I am very mindful of things and apply plenty of T thinking, there are knock-on effects of that fact to this day.
What’s “knock-on effects” in general (dictionary still confuses me here) or in your “that fact to this day”?
“But ‘pretty well’ to me does not look like it does to many Westerners – not money, or material goods, or status symbols. ‘Pretty well’ to me looks like feeling content and not getting back to the bad places I’ve been to before. “
That sounds spiritually substantial well to me.
“You see, I am not a sugar-coated Westerner with no struggles in my history.”
My T mind positively knows that every Westerner or Easterner has struggles of some sorts in their individual life, including priests and monks/nuns, that’s the default of life! My F mind does/can not feel/sympathize with some extra/unnecessary/unwise “struggles” that exist across classes.
“I haven’t told you any of this wanting sympathy, honestly. I am reconciled with my past, and I am useless at taking sympathy anyway.”
As argued with Trifles before, I rarely take or give sympathy; to me, it’s a form of condescendence, even if it was a whimsical play of Fate in other side’s experiences. I only give sympathy to those who appeared needing it very much and can appreciate it; sometimes, sympathy can even enable other side’s weakness instead of helping water their seeds of strength/talents/capabilities.
“Although the relationship has *never* been smooth sailing (our mixture of character types and histories sees to that), there is also an awful lot of good in it,”
I think it’s a default of every long-term relationship. Maybe 0.1% couples had 95-99% smooth sailing, like x-president Carter and his wife.
“And, of course, this is the same time period that is punctuated by my LE. I have obviously given that point a lot of thought and will leave you to draw your own conclusions – but let’s say I am not blind to cause and effect. “
Very understandable here! As we know now, LO/LE often played a “rescuing” hand (without LO’s awareness or intention), when one happens to just need it, consciously or subconsciously.
“How things got between SO and I in ’23 are probably 50-50 responsibility, but I obviously had and have a big role to play in the healing of that. The LE and all the thinking and guilt linked to it act as a frustrating interruption. “
Thank you for telling me more about your bumpy sailing with SO, I can hardly imagine how hard it has been! If in your shoes, I might have already fell off the cliff. You sound like you’re standing more firm on the cliff nowadays.
“your assessment of ‘smooth sailing’ is unfortunately not accurate. “
I’m sorry about it. That was my impression solely based on words — 10% of facts of a matter.
“Just as Bewitched put it just now, even within a relationship it can sometimes feel lonely.”
I want to say (to Bewitched as well) that being married before, I F-know what it was like to be lonely in a relationship or in any “merry” crowd. I avoid big (more than 4/5) social gatherings.
“And yes, in this respect as well as some other parts of the journey above, I count myself highly fortunate for having MFF in my life. I continue to work on how to amalgamate all that to be most content.”
So take this 3 week “NC” as a short break, you’ll see her supportive and flawless appearance very soon!
“So that’s some of the load carried by your cheery LwL barman. I don’t really want to dive deeper into it at the moment than that. “
Please don’t feel compelled to dive more than necessary. I hope you feel less heavier/loaded inside now on the first day of 2025!
“That cheery side of my character is also true – I have not invented him. But they are different sides that speak at different times. “
I’m glad to hear that you could be as cheery as an idealized barmen!
“Just please, I would ask that you don’t think that when I try to empathise with other LwL posters, I do it purely with my T brain and blind to the tougher parts of life, or how my situation compares to theirs. We all have our story”
Okay, I agree! I think it’s either my ESL or confusing effects of words alone (Wittengenstein), that I got my previous inaccurate impression about your empathy for other LwL posters. I was very touched that you generously spent so much time and energy to respond so many new, “stranger” ghosts — a true busy “savor”.
My WiFi is still dead 😡, and I still have 12 hours to finish my first big trial… feeling very confident to pass it at midnight… 💪
Thanks for this very empathic reply.
I would not blame your ESL for misperceptions – I think you do very well with the language considering the depth of topics we discuss in your SL. I am sure it creates some of the different understandings – as well as the cultural difference contributing. We are good at working to resolve it, and I reckon Wittgenstein’s point is the bigger factor.
Also, in your favour I know that T is my preferred way of talking and that I find it harder (despite knowing the benefit) to engage F publicly. The reliance on T, especially when discussing myself, is a ‘protector’. So you will see a lot of that side in my 10%-of- communication words. You are not wrong to detect a lot of T, but F is there underneath, steering. And I have not previously revealed many of the facts I presented to you this morning – so how could you know?? It is not coincidence that I revealed them at this point, with my F brain buzzing overtime.
‘Knock on effects’ – rather like dominoes. Starts with one effect (push first domino down) and that then knocks into the next domino and the next, creating a cascade of further effects.
I am sure I can positively reframe this NC break. My thought process has been that it feels pointless as I am withdrawing the dopamine drug in full knowledge I will get the drug again, so what’s the real point? (Though perhaps I can learn to ‘use’ the drug differently in future?) It is not a purposeful NC though in the sense of not choosing it.
But I can reframe it and try and take positives from the break. I have proved I can do NC if forced. Not all has been bad. Writing all about things to you today has made me have a good think about what I appreciate in SO and how I can show that better. I rarely get the brain interval to think a lot like that. So for sure, there are some positives to come from it.
—-
I have some thoughts and questions re bits of yours:
– why is the end of today (not yesterday) the end of the itchy finger 👽 trial?
– don’t worry about your thing with not liking groups of more than 4 or 5. Smaller groups are more authentic anyway. I only like bigger groups when they are in L’Amoors.
-what’s with your wifi – is it fixed now?
-I haven’t read War and Peace but it has a reputation as heavy, heavy stuff … even used as an idiom like “I don’t need war and peace” to mean “please give me only the short version of this story”.
Ciao for now 😁
LaR,
“I think you do very well with the language considering the depth of topics we discuss in your SL. “
What does “SL” here stand for?
“I am sure it creates some of the different understandings – as well as the cultural difference contributing. “
Very true. Sometimes I could feel accurately in English, but sometimes I misinterpreted the way off based on my COO and personal experiences; but this applies to everyone — a speaker’s intention almost always get strayed-off interpretations and understandings. This phenomenon has caused “wars” as you saw even here in a ghost land. Unfortunately, that punitive God created Babel to punish the entire human race!
“We are good at working to resolve it, and I reckon Wittgenstein’s point is the bigger factor.”
With 90% of five sensory communication missing and cultural, personal differences, words only ought to continue causing confusions and possibly unintended hurts, let us all keep it in mind.
“So you will see a lot of that side in my 10%-of- communication words. You are not wrong to detect a lot of T, but F is there underneath, steering.”
I deliberately to use T brain while rambling here… sometimes sounds like a heartless butcher to others LE cases. We COO folks are a master to hide our F in public. Majority of westerners have to dig open the frozen, icy ground surface to find any possible F seeds, many of which have died under the dictatorship. It was not my case, I was a secret limerent!
“It is not coincidence that I revealed them at this point, with my F brain buzzing overtime.”
Understandable, it’s a big, long holiday period, the turning point of symbolic “old” and “new”, which makes us all unrequited limerents feel raw and vulnerable. I was/am in there/here (in much worse condition) 8 years over.
“‘Knock on effects’ – rather like dominoes. Starts with one effect (push first domino down) and that then knocks into the next domino and the next, creating a cascade of further effects.”
Wow, I did not know it has dominoes effect. I wanted to say one of my N here, which I did not before (for worrying being wrong or offensive) when you answered my question, whether you think your SO is limerent type or non-limerent one. Based on your brief description of your story, I could not help feel she is also a non-type, just like your MFF, as you defined.
“(Though perhaps I can learn to ‘use’ the drug differently in future?) It is not a purposeful NC though in the sense of not choosing it.… But I can reframe it and try and take positives from the break. I have proved I can do NC if forced.“
I think you can use this period to practice Stoicism, because it’s something absolutely out of your control. In the future, you can actively choose Stoic principle to “fight with” uncontrollable or uncertainties at any given time, not just holidays. A forced NC of a short time is easier, compared to a long-term, hopeless one that me and many others here have. Be MORE grateful that your “drug” will walk back soon, if you want to continue indulging in it.
“Writing all about things to you today has made me have a good think about what I appreciate in SO and how I can show that better.”
I think it’s important or necessary to take a bit of time each day to appreciate one’s SO, in all directions. So if any tiny, subtle issues emerge, they would not be delayed at least in one’s mind. Don’t delay even tiny bit of unpleasant sting and find out its possible causes, and then whether it needs to be expressed and handled with SO or anyone else (— with MFF is still “playing with fire” since you’re not out LE yet). An accumulation of ignorance or insensibility or avoidance could lead to an emotional volcano buildup in any relationship and friendship. (I had my innumerable lessons).
– why is the end of today (not yesterday) the end of the itchy finger 👽 trial?
Sending a holiday greeting signal to the “black hole” — 7 years of a tradition. (They all got blue ✅ after landed…) I have equally strong arguments for either keeping it or breaking it, and my T and F have been fiercely swinging between two (the signal is well-prepared and ready to go). MJ’s situation refreshed my past pain and seems to have nailed my itchy fingers to my churning stomach 😡
“– don’t worry about your thing with not liking groups of more than 4 or 5. Smaller groups are more authentic anyway.”
I’m not worried at all, almost never FOMO. I prefer and choose smaller, more intimate gathering for chat, discussion and debate, mostly with women or some colleagues. Superficial chitchats in a big group bored me to no limit, I’m an “Amazon Warrior” who is interested in learning all civilizations.
“I only like bigger groups when they are in L’Amoors.”
There could be hundreds ghosts passing by each day… 😄 Thank DrL, we could be here freely, invisibly “naked”, showing and lamenting scars of our sorrows and woes in our limerence or the entire psyche — “Look, here is my boo-boo!…” What a magical healing stage!
“-what’s with your wifi – is it fixed now?”
Nope. It had an unknown trouble a couple weeks ago and fixed on its own before the repair person came. I can’t fix it (might be the entire system nearby) and everyone is off work today. I can’t watch movies with limited phone data.
“-I haven’t read War and Peace but it has a reputation as heavy, heavy stuff … even used as an idiom like “I don’t need war and peace” to mean “please give me only the short version of this story”.”
It’s an indeed masterpiece of Tolstoy, and it’s worthwhile reading the book before watching a good production of it — no less than 8-10 hours! (I’m watching BBC adaption now, before a Russian long one, and a shorter American one). If you have a time now, perhaps you want to tackle it? it’s different from “Anna Karenina”, stressing on one’s place and role in Society, Humble, “naive”, introvert Count Pierre is its hero….
I just work up from a long nap (still feeling sick with the congested nose) and had a vivid dream — to obtain a legal paper/form — COO (no incidental here), from a local government office on my street, to confirm (show to the society) my non-affiliation with CAA — first was ET and then changed to xSO. So I waited and waited impatiently for an older male clerk to dig out my divorce paper, while chatting with another younger attractive male clerk… I never got the form, COO, before I woke up!
I read it related to my first trail, as if I needed a legitimate or official reason — a form, COO, to publicly declare my already divorce with CAA — ET. But why did it change to xSO while I was waiting for the form? Very confusing to me now.
It’s like a Fate, that I heard MJ’s sad, expected (triggering to me) situation yesterday… which completely stopped my itchy hand…. 5 more hour to go now…
I passed the trial,
while Tolstoyian humanity and forgiveness
get strong hold of me.
He never answered to each well-meant, normal holiday greeting? What a rude guy…
I think it’s a good decision not to write them any more- well done,Snow!
Hi Snow,
“What does “SL” here stand for?”
Second Language (as in its use in ESL)
“I deliberately to use T brain while rambling here”
I have felt more of your F brain in messages recently (December onwards). And massively in the big reply to me yesterday. If any of that F was difficult to write, please know how much I appreciated it.
Please don’t take increased use of F as a bad thing, as your COO folks might see it. I think it is helpful. If and when you (collective) want to deliver a T ‘zinger’ (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zinger) at anyone, the typical Western respondent is more likely to listen to it when there is enough F ‘packaging’ wrapping it up. It doesn’t apply to all of us. And I am *definitely* not saying Westerners are right and Easterners wrong on this point – Westerners could very often benefit from having thicker skins.
This next paragraph is a total aside but I just wanted to mention a funny memory I have of an Eastern cultural difference. A few years ago SO and I travelled around bits of SE Asia. In the West as you know, when we go into a restaurant there is a set ‘dance’ routine for the staff – offer and fix drinks quickly and then retreat and allow the customers ample time for a long, leisurely browse of the menu. In more than one country of SE Asia, we found that the waiting staff didn’t offer drinks first, and just stood over us, watching and waiting, until we ordered food. I found it really interesting 1. that SE Asian diners obviously prefer this way when eating out, 2. that the areas we were in (on the frequent tourist trail) had never adapted to the fact that Westerners want more time with the menu and don’t want to feel pressurised. Would this be how it works in your COO experience? Since then I have noticed the trend creeping in in the West too – especially in bars, we seem to be expected to know what drink we want nowadays before we even go in the bar. Not in the Amoors Inn, not on my watch! Our customers can peruse the drinks selection for as long as they want before ordering.
Anyway, to get back on point – I don’t think it is right for either of us to name any names, but you have probably worked out who on LwL is happy to be served pure T, and who needs a balanced plate also containing F. For some, F is actually offputting.
“Based on your brief description of your story, I could not help feel she is also a non-type”
I found it hard to reach an answer to that. Probably the more beneficial analytical tool is attachment styles. Example – I went away for a week alone just after the lockdowns had relented, just to give myself some headspace, different air and health benefits (we had both worked entirely at home all day every day for over a year by then). SO couldn’t seem to handle the temporary separation, and wanted to communicate all the time. This could make me sound mean but I was more like “it will be really nice to see her at the end of the week and exchange all the news, but I don’t need to text every 5 minutes”. Nearer the beginning of the relationship I might have been the same as her (struggled to be separate). So I’d say this sort of thing maybe makes her the more limerent type of the two of us?? But could be more about attachment style than limerence.
My attitude in that week is how you suggested I regard temporary NC from MFF now. I am convinced it is how MFF sees it – nothing sinister or problematic, just no need to be in constant conmunication (more secure in the relationship than I am). But I can’t seem to apply it to MFF because I am still limerent. Limerence seems to really tamper with healthy behaviours we apply elsewhere.
“it’s something absolutely out of your control.”
Sadly not. It is only ever one push from my own itchy finger from being back in my control. I have held out so far. Based on history, she won’t burst the dam, but if I burst it then she will text me for hours or days on end to continue the conversation. (Does your N have any inkling to explain what’s going on there?? And/or 📣 Trifles, please help me with some NTP/text-buddy intel on this part – I can never figure it out). That’s the strange bit based on history – no instigation, but if I instigate, then no stopping her.
“(— with MFF is still “playing with fire” since you’re not out LE yet).”
I know this. Nearer the start of the LE I was straying towards discussing SO with MFF too much. I saw the slippery slope and made a purposeful decision not to do it anymore, which I have stuck to, even though that’s been hard at times.
“I have equally strong arguments for either keeping it or breaking it. My T and F have been fiercely swinging between two”
Which one (T and F) said which decision (break or don’t)? For me it would be F (heart) telling me to break NC and T (head) over-ruling. For some reason I think yours might be the other way round? I see you passed the trial – congrats 🎊 🏅
“If you have a time now, perhaps you want to tackle it?”
I might try the BBC version before my hols are up. I haven’t got the hours in my life to read the book – but do agree with you in principle that it is nearly always best to read a book first before watching its movie adaptation.
Re your dream, what does the abbreviation CAA stand for?
I admit that I read War and Peace twice, and could read it again with pleasure, since I embarrassingly forget the most of it after a while every time🙈
It gets a bit weak towards the end, as I recall, but it’s fascinating. A good translation is crucial, I guess. I read Anna Karenina in two different translations and the difference was enormous.
Mila, LaR,
The Galaxy was quiet — I did NOT send out the signal, thus broke the tradition — passed the trial!
As repeated before, it truly mattered little to none whether I got response at all — practicing my Stoicism. The addictive “high” simply came from composing itself and then the tiny “click”… I’m either a mental “masochist” or a monologuer rambling to a 👽 in the Galaxy?
The last episode of “War and Peace” helped both T & F, extinguished my triggered anger and simultaneously amplified Tolstoyian forgiveness for its origin. F can be cherished within me without need always to be shown, except to L ’Amoors ghosts.
Then, I was haunted by a big punitive dream — got massive cold, direct lie, open flirt with another woman… treatment from 👽 on the first day back to the old work! — A test or punishment?
The Unconscious is a living beast!
LaR,
🗣️ Rad or watch “War and Peace” ASAP, before I your 🧠 🔨; so Mila and I could spin your head over tail for humanity discussion/debate! 😇
Snow,
🪖🛡
OK – will try and watch in next couple of weeks!
Mila,
“He never answered to each well-meant, normal holiday greeting? What a rude guy…“
He always answered immediately or initiated (1 out of 7) New Year greetings. I did not, nor him, sent out any this year.
Where does this lead to? Have little idea… my brain doesn’t work like yours — actively making decisions or determinations …
Congratulations for your LE-free New Year! Such a fresh new beginning! 🎆 🍻
Edit: Where does this lead to IN My psyche — the most important? Have little idea… 💡
LaR,
“📣 Trifles”
Present! (If I passed the scrolling test)
“please help me with some NTP/text-buddy intel (…) no instigation, but if I instigate, then no stopping her.”
I just like to converse. (Though I must admit, not with everyone, at least not for as long spells.) Usually something he says sparks some thoughts in me, and on it goes… But not for “days on end”!
As for why she doesn’t instigate – she probably recognises the male – female dynamic. Like I said, I’m old fashioned, I’m glad to let the man take the lead. It just works better that way. Also, like in your relationship, the man is the one who’s attached, so that plays into the dynamics as well. So this might mean that she does realise that there is something a little “grey zone” about texting… 😯
“your “drug” will walk back soon, if you want to continue indulging in it.”
This is a good point from Snow. When I’ve been limerent I’ve never had that kind of certainty that if I do nothing, my ‘drug’ will nonetheless be waiting for me, the same as it ever was. I don’t know how that would feel – there’s a lot less uncertainty at least!
Trifles,
Thanks for the thoughts!
She’s quite a feminist and massively into equality (another good quality). But I suspect that under that and the E exterior, she also appreciates old fashioned chivalry / ‘the traditional way’. She would keep it well hidden, mind. Sometimes (and I
mean this with absolute love, and please don’t lynch me for saying it), (some) feminists are feminists until they don’t want to be!
I think the grey zone explanation makes lots of sense. There is never anything ‘not innocent’ in our texts, but I know she would be horrified if she was ever discovered by SO to be ‘the woman always texting me’ (and that would hold true whether she loves me, loathes me or anything between). I recognise that’s a really fair position for her to take, and that I have basically no right to expect anything. I have a hunch that’s why it is different if I instigate, as that’s a way of me communicating ‘it is a safe time to text’. Trivial bits aside, every text exchange we have ever had has lasted hours. So to send one comes with a warning (for both of us) of either committing to hours or seeming ‘off’ compared to previous times.
On the point about knowing I will get the drug again (you know I’d choose to, but by the by I can’t choose not to even if I wanted to) … it just makes the withdrawal seem so pointless. Like why would I do a 12 step programme if I knew I’d drink a bottle of vodka after finishing it? Mind you, to recast it more positively, I do feel stronger and with more resolve with each day that passes now – so its not all bad, it can be done if I need to. The first few days are murder, then it improves quite quickly – did you find that when weaning off LO?
For ages I have really wanted to compare notes with you about thought processes and results about ‘holiday gifts’, but I know I can’t reveal what happened or didn’t in my case and I am sure you can’t either. I do wish I could as there is a a great story about something I received. Remind me one day over on the agriculture forum once I’m over all this madness.
LaR,
Yep, I’m also a feminist, believe it or not! But in matters of the heart, I do require a gentleman. And in my experience, whenever I’ve had to chase a man it has never worked out. (It just means that they are not interested enough to begin with and chasing does nothing to help.) So unfortunately it’s better for me to sit back and let them choose me. I think some female poster on here said the opposite however. So that’s encouraging.
That’s a fair point about the 12 step program! But maybe it works in taking you a step down in intensity (you won’t need to reach for the vodka bottle afterwards, instead just a beer?). And who knows, maybe it will clear your head a little? Think of it as a cleanse. 😁
And wow, that is quite intense if your texting sessions always last hours..! Continuing with this “weaning off” analogy – could you work on cutting those shorter? (Though I think you said that you don’t text often.)
“The first few days are murder, then it improves quite quickly – did you find that when weaning off LO?”
Oh yes, the first days were an hour-by-hour, if not minute-by-minute, battle! But after maybe 5-6? days it got easier. It was a battle then too and I never knew when I would have a weak moment (the old fooling myself: “oh now it’s fine – I don’t HAVE to text him, I can just do it casually now…”) – but better.
And that is a shame – I love stories about gifts! Let me know when you are heading over to the agriculture forum. I don’t think I can go over there alone, I’m afraid they would eat me alive! 😬
Holy Crap LaR.
Hours long texting? Maaan, she’s into you. Consider yourself lucky again my friend. I’m lucky if I get 5 minutes with LF.. Wtf?? 🤯
LaR,
I second MJ that your MFF might be really into you, if she could go on texting your hours or days like there is no tomorrow! So, be MORE grateful!
Another possibility is that she has OCD, which could sustain one to do things of one’s interests to “no end”. I have a big OCD, so I know inside out how it drives mind and hands… While OCD is taking the driver’s seat, T dominates and adrenaline fires up with boosted/undying energy, F mostly gets pushed away. F needs quiet, solitude time to FEEL, with music, book, movie, or silence, not much T surging like in texting, gaming (I don’t game at all).
LaR,
Finally got a quiet moment to reply.
After scheduling a repair for my wifi tomorrow, it fixed on itself own within 30 minutes, just like last time two weeks ago! I wonder if this company was deliberately cutting the users’ data randomly, while making you believe it’s a system’s surge problem! Then after you schedule a in-person repair, it fixes your end on its own so fast. How strange!
“I have felt more of your F brain in messages recently (December onwards). And massively in the big reply to me yesterday. If any of that F was difficult to write, please know how much I appreciated it. “
Not all difficult in writing, if I want to. In person, it would be mighty difficult. I could look “snowy” outside while burning inside. I was trained extremely well not to show F even to a “LO” or a lover…
“Please don’t take increased use of F as a bad thing, as your COO folks might see it.”
I privately proudly 💗 F in me and others, particularly in strong-looking, cultured men, but my T training always nagged/hammered on the back of mind (by collective COO voice — I so wanted to smash those lifetime buzz! ) Nowadays, I rarely deal closely with COO folks personally, particularly in my emotional life. I simply stay in my own “no-man” land, leaning on the West in F and on the East in T.
“I think it is helpful. If and when you (collective) want to deliver a T ‘zinger’ (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/zinger) at anyone, the typical Western respondent is more likely to listen to it when there is enough F ‘packaging’ wrapping it up. It doesn’t apply to all of us. “
The good word, “zinger”! Huh, it’s so refreshing and reassuring to hear your input on F. I have always been worried to show my F side (except to children and animals — they don’t judge), fearing to be thought/judged overly “emotional/girlish” — very negative in COO. So I practiced F loaded monologues with 👽, without being tacky or sentimental. I don’t know whether they got read, though; needless to say, there was no judgment of either kind.
It’s so much better to get a feedback from your guys! 😊. I’m learning by doing, writing a script by living in it… you see why this place is personally addictive to me…. I benefit from it in many aspects of life, not just limerence-related.
“And I am *definitely* not saying Westerners are right and Easterners wrong on this point – Westerners could very often benefit from having thicker skins. “
The West has “thick-skinned” Stoics, but their population is small. In my eye, the majority of COO folks (99%) never knew/know what they are missing or have missed in F sides of things, while Westerners seem to be “suffering” more emotional pains or psychological issues (by media, movies, books). There are similar issues in the East as well, but in a smaller portion, smaller scope, in less intensity and degrees; But I see pitiful poverty in individual and collective F.
“Would this be how it works in your COO experience? “
Nope! The waiters stand far away until you wave your hand; you can stay in a restaurant or spa from 5 hours — 5 days without ever coming out! Because you’d end up spending more money if you stay — drink, eat, play, endless spa service, spring-water jacuzzi , sleep (no physical intimacy, since all space is a sort of open),
“Since then I have noticed the trend creeping in in the West too – especially in bars, we seem to be expected to know what drink we want nowadays before we even go in the bar.”
You must live in a busy city! In my town, too — everyone is in a rush for something. I can’t sense things if am rushed to do anything… I love cozy homes.
“Not in the Amoors Inn, not on my watch! Our customers can peruse the drinks selection for as long as they want before ordering.”
We can make L’Amoors a bucolic landscape for social mingling like at the end of “War and Peace”. I think, sense, and hope more limerents here could recoup, “revive” a little from our “tired/wounded” limerencing soul for a while whether they speak or not.
“Anyway, to get back on point – I don’t think it is right for either of us to name any names, but you have probably worked out who on LwL is happy to be served pure T, and who needs a balanced plate also containing F. For some, F is actually offputting.”
Nope, I can’t “see” clearly, words are very elusive; plus, people/ghost do change and evolve slowly or quickly (not over night, of course! except my finger👆🏼)
I think we limerents embody pretty much all kinds of humanities, even “criminal” ones. I wonder if anyone reading this site is actually living in a realistic prison; they’re given wifi access, are they? Well, with an internet, anything seems possible in today’s world. But a lose connection of human hearts is like a diamond to find/build/carve❗️
[“Based on your brief description of your story, I could not help feel she is also a non-type”
“I found it hard to reach an answer to that. “]
Really? 😳 with your limerent traits and peacemaker personality, you can’t figure out whether your SO is limerent type or not ⁉️ I forgot how long you’ve been together, but don’t tell if it’s too private.
“Probably the more beneficial analytical tool is attachment styles.”
Based on the example you provided here, SO sounds more like having anxiety attachment style. Between you two, you probably have a steadier attachment style. Based DrL’ limerence definitions, you have to figure out whether or how each of you had been through (or not) those 5 stages. Everyone is limerent in his/her own ways, no one else can tell.
“But I can’t seem to apply it to MFF because I am still limerent. Limerence seems to really tamper with healthy behaviours we apply elsewhere.”
It sounds definitely so, in your case, mine, and many others’…
“it’s something absolutely out of your control.” “Sadly not. “
I meant this temporary NC in holiday is out of your control.
“It is only ever one push from my own itchy finger from being back in my control.”
All our limerent 👆🏼 is a fire player, yours especially, because your MFF responds always — in a OCD style!
“I have held out so far. Based on history, she won’t burst the dam, but if I burst it then she will text me for hours or days on end to continue the conversation. (Does your N have any inkling to explain what’s going on there??
As I just said to MJ, my N tells me that your MFF either is very much into you or has OCD. I was used to monologuing without caring much whether I got reply — one of Stoic practices and F releasing. However, when 👽 occasionally responded a couple of lines, my monologues increased 5-10 times folds immediately following that couple of lines, driven either by LE or by OCD. Your MFF almost sounded like me, but I was/am a lifetime limerent, easily fall in LE caused by my cptsd. What would be your Non-limerent MFF’s stories? How much do you know?
“That’s the strange bit based on history – no instigation, but if I instigate, then no stopping her.”
If morality is considered in her mind, if your LE gets somehow leaked in the future, you’d be the dominant guilty party — you instigated (all) texts first. This is my T talking.
“Which one (T and F) said which decision (break or don’t)? “
I was referring to breaking one tradition — sending out a holiday-greeting to the galaxy (the crisis was over more than 27 hours now, Tolstoy helped me). Both my T and F said to break it with their respective reasons; and meanwhile both my T and F also said to keep it for their respective reasons. Nothing with me is simple, but my finger is not itching at the moment. I count in measurement of hours.
“Re your dream, what does the abbreviation CAA stand for?”
I do NOT know, either! it’s definitely not CIA. I still cannot figure it out. I clearly remember I walked into a small, one-room registration office (like a small UPS size) on my current street more than 20 blocks away (there is no such an government office in reality). Its interior setting with furniture and file cabinet is still vivid in my head now.
I spoke to this a bit rough looking, chubby, middle-aged man (might looked like a minor character in “war and peace”), “I’d like to fill out the form, COO… I want a copy of my divorce paper with CAA. “
The reason in my dream mind was that I needed to fill out the form, COO, so the society could know that I was truly divorced. [but the dream did not tell who was “the society” or any other specific people]
First, CAA’s image in my dream mind was 👽 briefly. As I was waiting, wanting, CAA’s image changed into my xSO vaguely, whose realistic first name starts with “A”. The clerk searched all file hangers inside the desk in front of him and could not find it. So he went to a bigger file cabinet behind it. Then I began to chat/flirt with that younger clerk standing on my left side.
The clerk said something like, “It’s strange, it should be here…”. Then I woke up, disappointed for a moment that I could not fill out the form, COO and for not knowing to whom I needed to prove/announce my past divorce…
What do you think of it? there can be no absolutely right or wrong… I just want to hear different interpretations… I’ll tell you my tentative one later.
*****
[“Then, I was haunted by a big punitive dream last night— got massive hated treatment from 👽 (with his 3 major flaws):
1. cold ignorance — did not say greeting after a vacation break and passed behind me at a small breakfast table.
2. direct lie — gave me a plastic bag saying it’s meat, as I was eating my breakfast (always a hungry-ghost in my dream). But when I opened it, it’s all powdered brown and white sugar (I hate it)
3. open flirt/smile with another young woman in front of my eyes, right at the dining room door as he was walking out.
on the first day back to the old work! — A test or punishment?”]
Thee interpretations:
1. it’s punishment by the Unconscious because I broke the tradition; did not send out any greetings like before.
2. It’s a test: do you think you can ever forgive or put up with these three vices? (Tolstoy and Dostoevsky can)
3. It’s question: with flaws like those, did/do you (need to) regret breaking the tradition — sending out good wishes (not just in ritual)?
****
I haven’t gone to bed yet and will stay awake for a while; OCD is at work as you’re witnessing.
Hi LaR,
I don’t see why one cannot be a feminist and still appreciate some chivalry?
Feminism is about basic rights and not about turning into a man, I guess.
On the subject of her not instigating, could be that it’s because you’ve got an SO and she doesn’t, she wants to do the right thing and not come over as hunting you. That could mean she honestly only wants friendship, could also mean she’s aware of a danger and tries to keep away from it.
When I met SO, I was in a relationship and he was single, and I remember that he said he felt his hands were tied because of that- it was me doing the pursuing and disclosing and ending my relationship. He disclosed too after I did, but he never wanted to butt into my relationship, the decision to end it was completely up to me. So maybe she’s got that kind of moral thinking too.
Or she just wants to be on the safe side and not jeopardize your friendship by seeming to pursue you.
Lots of explanations here!
Snow,
Snow, OK, the patrons seem to have departed, so as you’re teaching, I will grab me a giggle tea and take the late shift in the thinking corner of Amoors (away from the lawyer’s silent prying eyes) to tackle some of this …
“I have always been worried to show my F side (except to children and animals — they don’t judge), fearing to be thought/judged overly “emotional/girlish” — very negative in COO”
I understand it would take such a lot of work to overcome that level of ‘programming’ – even if you wanted to. You’ll know this now, but adults in the West tend not to mind emotional/ girlish – many men quite like it in a woman, to an extent anyway. But what I don’t know is whether that kind of man would be the kind you’d want to befriend or attract, or whether you prefer the more T kind (I think the T kind? More the 📚 Lawyer than the 🦱Welder?? You have not asked me for a 🔐 for the Lawyer). We all have an inner child that wants to react just like a real child would.
“So I practiced F loaded monologues with 👽, without being tacky or sentimental. I don’t know whether they got read, though”
Were no hints ever given in conversations between the two of you about whether he read them?? I’m fascinated that you continued to send them, not knowing the answer.
“It’s so much better to get a feedback from your guys! 😊. I’m learning by doing, writing a script by living in it… you see why this place is personally addictive to me…. I benefit from it in many aspects of life, not just limerence-related.”
I feel like lots of us are benefitting in these unexpected ways. LwL is a profound and mutually supportive place. I am glad to know that you are benefitting.
“In my eye, the majority of COO folks (99%) never knew/know what they are missing or have missed in F sides of things”
Is it like ‘you don’t know what you don’t know’?’. I can’t imagine going through life not really expressing (?having??) feelings. But I get that I can’t hope to (F) ‘get’ at all how different it is there. At least I know now that people aren’t being harangued while reading the menu.
“while Westerners seem to be “suffering” more emotional pains or psychological issues […] I see pitiful poverty in individual and collective F.”
I’d agree. Too much F can individually create narcissism, hopeless comparison and resulting bad feelings about the self. Collectively it creates competition where it doesn’t need to be there, more bad feeling, and loads of spending on things in the misguided belief this will ease the bad feeling. Rinse and repeat. And that’s to name but a few consequences. It seems worse in the younger generations. We need more of a combination of the Eastern T and the Western F.
“Nope, I can’t “see” clearly, words are very elusive; plus, people/ghost do change and evolve slowly or quickly”
That’s interesting. I believe you, but you can notice when I’m speaking with F and with T, and you know it about yourself (including in English, it seems) . Try and notice how others inject F and T, and also how they respond to being talked to in F and T ways.
“Really? 😳 with your limerent traits and peacemaker personality, you can’t figure out whether your SO is limerent type or not ⁉️ I forgot how long you’ve been together, but don’t tell if it’s too private.”
It is more than 8 years. I tried to set out before how the limerent behaviours yo-yoed at the beginning. I saw those behaviours in her as well as me, but not too strongly. I never felt as limerent as I did for my xLOs, or for narc xSO. But that, I think, is because SO or I never really ‘barriered’ a more natural progression of the relationship – it never got ‘frustrated’. So much of all my LEs is about barriers. I believe SO and I both passed through all the phases within a year or two, and then it becomes gnarled up with attachment styles more than limerence. I don’t believe she has been limerent for anyone else while we’ve been together (but who knows for sure?).
“Based on the example you provided here, SO sounds more like having anxiety attachment style. Between you two, you probably have a steadier attachment style.”
I 💯 agree.
“my N tells me that your MFF either is very much into you or has OCD […] when 👽 occasionally responded a couple of lines, my monologues increased 5-10 times folds immediately following that couple of lines, driven either by LE or by OCD.”
That pattern is typical of her too. I mentioned at the bottom of my reply to you earlier (Phantom message) that I have always seen this tendency in her as an example of a very strong leaning to P – whatever gets her interest at that second, that’s what she pursues (aside – have I convinced you that the MBTI has more merit than you used to think it did? We talk using the letters quite a lot these days and seem to understand each other when we do). This P is a trait I find very attractive in her and may be one of the triggers of why I fell limerent (prior, my life was ruled by my own and others’ J for far too long, and her P acted like rocket fuel to my limerence – several of the deities love it – I described it before as spontaneity and rebellion).
“What would be your Non-limerent MFF’s stories? How much do you know?”
There are a lot of them, they are complicated, and I think I know most of them (and few people do), but I’m not prepared to go into them on here. I knew a lot but not all of it before the glimmer happened. Knowing it helps me make sense of her and be a friend to her. The fact I know it has also bonded us very tightly. She knows quite a lot the other way round too, but I’m a bit more cautious in what I reveal. All this might explain the bind that we’re both in a bit more – for good (friendship) and for bad (curing limerence).
“What do you think of it? there can be no absolutely right or wrong… I just want to hear different interpretations… I’ll tell you my tentative one later.”
My first thought was to think it is about your wish to separate yourself / parts of yourself from COO. Perhaps on some level, also self doubt and guilt that you feel like that. Does divorce from xSO (?CAA) have some link to that issue – does divorce with him have to be rubber stamped to ‘divorce’ from COO? Or – alternative explanation – is it more about pulling off ET’s mask and the COO stuff is the smokescreen/ protector because your mind (even subconscious) isn’t quite ready yet for that prospect?
You said to go at interpretation freely, so I have done … but what do you think, more importantly?
“Three interpretations” (other dream)
1. it’s punishment by the Unconscious because I broke the tradition; did not send out any greetings like before.
2. It’s a test: do you think you can ever forgive or put up with these three vices? (Tolstoy and Dostoevsky can)
3. It’s question: with flaws like those, did/do you (need to) regret breaking the tradition — sending out good wishes (not just in ritual)?”
In my view – most likely 3. Not 1.
New Year’s Eve
D. H. Lawrence
1885 –1930
There are only two things now,
The great black night scooped out
And this fire-glow.
This fire-glow, the core,
And we the two ripe pips
That are held in store.
Listen, the darkness rings
As it circulates round our fire.
Take off your things.
Your shoulders, your bruised throat!
Your breasts, your nakedness!
This fiery coat!
As the darkness flickers and dips,
As the fireflight falls and leaps
From your feet to your lips!
I just wanted to stop by and give an update and wish you all Happy New Year.
I’ve went a little over a year without talking to LO even though he called twice. I didn’t answer. We did have a few very general and short text messages back and forth. Also still connected on social media with occasional likes or very general comment. It feels good. I see LO as a dormant virus that could reactivate under the right conditions so it’s best to stay away. I also want to do what’s best for my husband and family.
This LE was one of the hardest things I have ever been through and it’s taken me 6 years and the undeserved grace and mercy of God to get through it. The LEs can be so painful. Never forget there is always hope. Thanks to all who listened to me and encouraged me.
Beth 2,
Thank you for coming “back” to tell us how you’re doing, I’m happy to hear your good news!
I well remember that we had a similar LE triggers and endured the similar length of our LE; however, without SO, I definitely felt/feel less guilty/shame and could/can never see my xLO as “a dormant virus”. I actually envision xLO/LE is Zeus sent messenger, Hermes, forcing me to wake up to work on my preexisting condition — living half-zombie like under my life-time unresolved cptsd, and to grow… Now, with the imaginative hand my own Phantom wearing xLO mask, I am mostly healed and much more content with my trifling life…
I hope you continue feeling good and strong, staying away or avoiding activating your personal “virus”.
A happy, healthy New Year to you and your family!
Hi Beth2,
so nice to hear from you! Glad you are doing well. I wish you a happy new year with good health and happiness!
Hi Beth,
How lovely to hear from you!
It’s great to know you are in a good place now after all you have been through. You endured a lot !
Indeed, your story and achievement to get through to the other side should give so much hope to others.
I think your virus view on your XLO ( no longer LO) is a good one as a prevention measure.
You are worth so much more.
Wishing you all the best with your health and much happiness in 2025!
(Btw, I never encountered Beth 1, but I wish her well too if she happens to read here 🤣)
Amoor Gang,
I woke up with half congested nose, headache, dead-wifi, and pissed off psyche but itchy-free hand ✋ — F dominating T mood!
But if I ramble and voodoo swing with you lot, about how T could influence F, I’d helplessly feel better and then my fingers will become itchy again… should I keep silence and stay pissed? 36 hours more of the first trial to go 😧🫦…
Well, let me first wish you all a healthy and head & heart reigning limerence new year of 2025!
My deep gratitude to DrL and Teika and LwL— our saintly haven and Tardis!
No New Year resolution for me in mind! It never worked in my unconscious.
For me, it’s one step at time in action, while watching a thousand emotions surfing and ebbing beforehand and afterwards…
The Passing of the Year
Robert W. Service
1874 –1958
My glass is filled, my pipe is lit,
My den is all a cosy glow;
And snug before the fire I sit,
And wait to feel the old year go.
I dedicate to solemn thought
Amid my too-unthinking days,
This sober moment, sadly fraught
With much of blame, with little praise.
Old Year! upon the Stage of Time
You stand to bow your last adieu;
A moment, and the prompter’s chime
Will ring the curtain down on you.
Your mien is sad, your step is slow;
You falter as a Sage in pain;
Yet turn, Old Year, before you go,
And face your audience again.
That sphinx-like face, remote, austere,
Let us all read, whate’er the cost:
O Maiden! why that bitter tear?
Is it for dear one you have lost?
Is it for fond illusion gone?
For trusted lover proved untrue?
O sweet girl-face, so sad, so wan
What hath the Old Year meant to you?
And you, O neighbour on my right
So sleek, so prosperously clad!
What see you in that aged wight
That makes your smile so gay and glad?
What opportunity unmissed?
What golden gain, what pride of place?
What splendid hope? O Optimist!
What read you in that withered face?
And You, deep shrinking in the gloom,
What find you in that filmy gaze?
What menace of a tragic doom?
What dark, condemning yesterdays?
What urge to crime, what evil done?
What cold, confronting shape of fear?
O haggard, haunted, hidden One
What see you in the dying year?
And so from face to face I flit,
The countless eyes that stare and stare;
Some are with approbation lit,
And some are shadowed with despair.
Some show a smile and some a frown;
Some joy and hope, some pain and woe:
Enough! Oh, ring the curtain down!
Old weary year! it’s time to go.
My pipe is out, my glass is dry;
My fire is almost ashes too;
But once again, before you go,
And I prepare to meet the New:
Old Year! a parting word that’s true,
For we’ve been comrades, you and I—
I thank God for each day of you;
There! bless you now! Old Year, good-bye!
A Song for New Year’s Eve
William Cullen Bryant
1794 –1878
Stay yet, my friends, a moment stay—
Stay till the good old year,
So long companion of our way,
Shakes hands, and leaves us here.
Oh stay, oh stay,
One little hour, and then away.
The year, whose hopes were high and strong,
Has now no hopes to wake;
Yet one hour more of jest and song
For his familiar sake.
Oh stay, oh stay,
One mirthful hour, and then away.
The kindly year, his liberal hands
Have lavished all his store.
And shall we turn from where he stands,
Because he gives no more?
Oh stay, oh stay,
One grateful hour, and then away.
Days brightly came and calmly went,
While yet he was our guest;
How cheerfully the week was spent!
How sweet the seventh day’s rest!
Oh stay, oh stay,
One golden hour, and then away.
Dear friends were with us, some who sleep
Beneath the coffin-lid:
What pleasant memories we keep
Of all they said and did!
Oh stay, oh stay,
One tender hour, and then away.
Even while we sing, he smiles his last,
And leaves our sphere behind.
The good old year is with the past;
Oh be the new as kind!
Oh stay, oh stay,
One parting strain, and then away.
****
Oh stay, oh stay,
the tumultuous, the dragon roared 2024
One more a quarter of an hour, and then away… 🐦🔥
The Parting of the Year
Anna de Brémont
The midnight hour had come. With tearful eyes
And sad the Old Year strained I to my breast.
For we were loth to part—his lips I pressed
All tenderly in answer to his sighs.
A generous lover he; to say good-bye
Wrung heart and soul, bowed was his head and chilled
The hand with gifts and blessings lately filled.
’Twas hard to part—the dear Old Year and I.
Lo! as he lingered, came thro’ casement pane
A silvery summons echoing far and near.
He faltered, trembled, gasped, then thrust atwain
The casement, vanished in the starlight clear,
No vestige leaving of his happy reign,
While hand in hand stood I and the New Year!
****
Perhaps❓
“LO! as he lingered, came tho casement pane
A silvery summons each echoing far and near.
He faltered, trembled, gasped, then thrust atwain
The casement, vanished in the starlight clear,
No vestige leaving of his [LE] reign,
While hand in hand stood I and the New Year!
🐦🔥
The Year
Ella Wheeler Wilcox
1850 –1919
What can be said in New Year rhymes,
That’s not been said a thousand times?
The new years come, the old years go,
We know we dream, we dream we know.
We rise up laughing with the light,
We lie down weeping with the night.
We hug the world until it stings,
We curse it then and sigh for wings.
We live, we love, we woo, we wed,
We wreathe our brides, we sheet our dead.
We laugh, we weep, we hope, we fear,
And that’s the burden of the year.
The New Brain
Alice Notley
1945 –
Consciousness travels, my sweet: don’t you remember?
One sends one’s thoughts to thee as on this footfall,
or in this poem. But, truly, remember how we left our old meat-
heads to enter the glyph and ride the crystal ark, un-
bodied but worded. My [father] is a starred thought—
and, Don’t You Remember? the Mind from nowhere is everywhere,
not just under your skin. The first mind, not evolved but absolute
rainbow with me, you and me. Nothing depends on it either.
Someday I will remember this very future I am in, image in space.
I will at least see her, I say to myself, she will be someone
else than one ever thought and her eyes will be [black] words on white.
Consciousness travels from Neptune the planet to Neptune the god of the sea.
I travel to your irony and perambulation, your decibels and vehement
budget: I perceive you for you. You don’t have time. I
have time, I am the goddess of the smooth doorway. Let me in,
so I can abolish your description.
********
It was how the Phantom made in seven years
and it was finally let go with the Dragon
back to the Mars in twenty twenty four…
🐦🔥
The New Brain
Alice Notley
1945 –
Consciousness travels, my sweet: don’t you remember?
One sends one’s thoughts to thee as on this footfall,
or in this poem. But, truly, remember how we left our old meat-
heads to enter the glyph and ride the crystal ark, un-
bodied but worded. My [father] is a starred thought—
and, Don’t You Remember? the Mind from nowhere is everywhere,
not just under your skin. The first mind, not evolved but absolute
rainbow with me, you and me. Nothing depends on it either.
Someday I will remember this very future I am in, image in space.
I will at least see her, I say to myself, she will be someone
else than one ever thought and her eyes will be [black] words on white.
Consciousness travels from Neptune the planet to Neptune the god of the sea.
I travel to your irony and perambulation, your decibels and vehement
budget: I perceive you for you. You don’t have time. I
have time, I am the goddess of the smooth doorway. Let me in,
so I can abolish your description.
********
A face of the Phantom was crafted in seven years
and finally let go, riding on the Dragon
back to the Mars in the Eve of 2025
🐦🔥
The Old Year
John Clare
1793 –1864
The Old Year’s gone away
To nothingness and night:
We cannot find him all the day
Nor hear him in the night:
He left no footstep, mark or place
In either shade or sun:
The last year he’d a neighbour’s face,
In this he’s known by none.
All nothing everywhere:
Mists we on mornings see
Have more of substance when they’re here
And more of form than he.
He was a friend by every fire,
In every cot and hall—
A guest to every heart’s desire,
And now he’s nought at all.
Old papers thrown away,
Old garments cast aside,
The talk of yesterday,
Are things identified;
But time once torn away
No voices can recall:
The eve of New Year’s Day
Left the Old Year lost to all.
*****
Sometimes a loss is tragedy
sometimes nothing left a blessing
Either way, it’s an aged struggle
to let the past to stay in the past
with its shadows and lights, and
embrace our each new day afresh
infused with eternal rays of wisdom
extracted from the loss of the Past
🐦🔥
Hi Snow,
I cannot be arsed to do the scrolling,
just want to say that I misunderstood, I thought you wrote something about sending greetings into a black hole and blue ticks, and thus thought that he didn’t answer.
Me, I was the one sending Christmas greetings and New Year greetings first to XLO, simply to do the right thing and get it over with. But it’s another situation than yours.
Also, to discuss War and Peace with you and LaR, I would have to read it a third time because the content seems to have vanished from my mind again🙈
Maybe I should? I only remember enjoying it each time.
Mila,
Since 👽 and I were never true friends, and I disclosed, there is no long a need to keep social rituals with a few superficial words…
I’ve also forgot most of the book of “War and Peace”, but the miniseries Movie is good enough for me to get gist of almost every character. BBC miniseries production is lavishly rich and colorful to feed one’s vision. 😋 It’s free on YT.
Snow,
I have also tired of scrolling and lost the bit of the thread where you said something earlier (in conversation with MJ) that I found interesting.
You wrote things about your phantom. You created this phantom for yourself, attached it to 👽, then reclaimed it for your own but with his 🎭 attached. My small observation is that you referred to it even now as ‘he’. But it is a part of you – your creation and property. I think if I substitute myself and MFF into this scenario (thinking about ‘the muse’ part), I can understand why I might do the same and see such a phantom muse at first as a ‘she’. But in time I might come not to (think also of Bewitched’s or Anna’s stories about reclaiming / internalising). I just wondered if you were already consciously aware of that or whether I have just managed to kick a new F insight into your T conscious?
LaR,
“where you said something earlier (in conversation with MJ) that I found interesting.”
I think you’re referring my message to Adam, not MJ.
“You wrote things about your phantom. You created this phantom for yourself, attached it to 👽, then reclaimed it for your own but with his 🎭 attached. “
Correct.
My Glimmer unconsciously attached the Phantom — IT, first to 👽 completely, then my conscious mind gradually reclaimed IT back into me, but with the 🎭 still glued on it, even after “he”/👽 is completely gone. T and F battles back and forth on taking 🎭 off or keeping it on… with F/N on the winning side the most of time.
Only completely and consistently demonizing 👽 can achieve the separation (may still be temporary), but it is not fair or inhuman to demonize or hate anyone or any ghost — no one with some conscience is able to do that! Tolstoy’s God in “War and Peace” makes it even more impossible!
“My small observation is that you referred to it even now as ‘he’. But it is a part of you – your creation and property. “
I used “he” only in comparison with Adam’s “she/LO”. The song he recommends is “Let her go…” but my MFF/“he” is an internal a part of myself — the Phantom (more masculine than feminine). How can I let myself go? Why do I need to let go the part of imagination and creation in Self — the Muse? Look at IFS chart, imagination (along with 15 other parts) is a Self healer in one, in anyone!
I almost said to Adam, my LO is actually the Phantom (created by the Muse in my childhood, grew so big, and finally became recognizable in this LE) only wearing 🎭 of xLO, not the realistic xLO/👽 who has been taken by Fate to the Galaxy. More, I disclosed my LE to such flawed 👽 before his final departure, leaving nothing in me to regret. I don’t think he understood how much I actually benefited from the LE that he did not intend.
“I think if I substitute myself and MFF into this scenario (thinking about ‘the muse’ part), I can understand why I might do the same and see such a phantom muse at first as a ‘she’. “
Yes, the opposite works much more effectively to heterosexual men or women; it’s a part of the nature.
“But in time I might come not to (think also of Bewitched’s or Anna’s stories about reclaiming / internalising).”
As an aspiring poet and writer, I don’t think I can ever work with a faceless or genderless of anything. A muse or Phantom has to be personalized like Athena, Zeus, Apollo or Aphrodite….think why Greek and other cultures created their mythology⁉️ In French, every noun even has a gender, how imaginative and amusing!
“I just wondered if you were already consciously aware of that or whether I have just managed to kick a new F insight into your T conscious?”
Before this LE, of course, I could not name this Phantom thingy in my head and was not clearly aware my silent, sporadic monologues with this faceless Phantom all the time since my daycare time. It was only after my F subconsciously attached IT to 👽 and subsequent dialogues (for a short period) and monologues (a much longer time…) made my T to recognize this Phantom’s clear existence. I reclaimed IT back 3 months before I found LwL, but the 🎭 is glued on IT with the parts of 🐦🔥both in 🎭 and the backbone.
Then with masculine 🎭 and feminine 🐦🔥mixed up metaphorically, where and how does DNA drives one’s F or T? Who would win at last❓❓
L.E.,
Linked to my IPlayer question from earlier (may have found a workaround) – what’s the name of that Lind song you posted fairly recently?
Bob Lind – Elusive Butterfly (Original Complete Version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbuC9hX2XAk
Trifles, LaR and all,
I just cannot do the scrolling anymore, sorry…
Trifles, maybe you mean me by the female poster who likes to chase, but it’s not quite like that. It got me thinking. Its not that I like to chase. Maybe I enjoy a little bit to do something small and see that they respond/get hooked. But it’s also that I feel easily crowded(?)when someone chases me. I’m a bit shy/private, and I feel intruded if someone goes too fast. I don’t know the right words, sorry. So I guess I feel more secure when they are not too openly moving towards me and I keep some of the control. So I seem to go for the types who are not too obvious, and I have to admit that I like the thrill of very small gestures. But in the end I mostly need the man to do the important step out of the „harmless“into the open.
Ukulele,also nice, makes me think of Marilyn Monroe in „Some like it hot“:)
But I’m sure one can simply start with guitar?
LAR,
I know these long texting sessions from XLO, but didn’t have to be every time.
I think your 12 steps are not futile, they might show you that it is possible to survive without texting and that knowledge is now lodged in your brain somewhere.
Snow,
I love Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky both. Fantastic writers.
And I see what you mean by superficial texts not being necessary anymore.
For me, this superficial stuff helps me to get over the awkward phase with XLO where I want to keep the friendship but on a toned down level, with much less texting and involvement. I need the superficial greetings to keep contact without getting personal too much. Maybe it‘ll tide us over until we settle into a new pattern.
Mila, no it wasn’t you I was trying to remember. It was someone (maybe comments in an old blog) who said that all the actual LTRs she had had worked better when she had been the pursuer.
I get what you’re saying about the more subtle approach…kind of. I think that’s exactly what is limerence inducing behavior. As we’ve seen here for example, most men need to be hit over the head with it for it to register. And I can’t flirt when something is that ambiguous – I will assume that it’s all in my head. I get the thrill of it though, but maybe it’s a bit too much… It makes bungee jumping look easy! 😉
And ha, I just saw “Some Like it Hot” again – great film!
Btw, these long Christmas holidays and talk of xLOs caused me now to dream of LO1. I don’t remember if I’ve dreamed of him before, and definitely not like this. 😯 He also (naturally…) confessed that he had been in love with me and showed me something nice he had written about me. (All this writing, again!) After that, things got steamy. So I no longer have elusive, unattainable LOs in my dreams – success! 😜
Trifles,
funny, I also dreamt of LO1 tonight, his wife also featuring, probably because we watched a series yesterday where a character reminded me of her (the evil character, actually 😆)
He was an example of me pursuing a bit more but him making the serious step to disclosing…
“ I get what you’re saying about the more subtle approach…kind of. I think that’s exactly what is limerence inducing behavior.”
Exactly! That’s my problem in a nutshell. All this dancing around, glancing, uncertainty, accidental touching and whatnot. Absolutely intoxicating and limerence inducing.
Seriously, DrL should give the pair of you r
Research Assistant jobs with the debate you’re having here.
Guest Post:
Mila and Trifles ,
‘On the subtle and not-so-subtle arts of female flirting*, its ability to bamboozle men, and its consequent limerence-inducing potential’
Please invite my LO along to co-write it.
[*I know men are pathologically rubbish and confusing flirts. That bit goes without saying]
Maybe it’s a new year is why. As I also had one of LO on 1st/2nd (depending on the actual time) that was quite bizarre but also heartwarming but also tempting me to take a step back. You know one of those moments (like in the movies) where you are somewhere crowded with people but all you see is the other person. And the camera pans around you as you look into each other’s eyes … and I don’t even watch romantic comedies. Music was playing. Not something apt to the situation like Bee Gee’s Rest Your Love On Me. No, it was about the only part of the dream that had it’s foot in reality and not limerent fantasy; Terri Clark’s Easy On The Eyes lol It is my therapy song so I can remember the difference between what she is to me and what I am to her.
Even included a sarcastic remark from my boss in the background. “Well somebody’s finally happy right now.” Lol Just like something he would say too.
Adam,
your boss starts to go on my nerves, now he even butts in in your dreams😆
doesn’t he have an own life to live?;) next dream, put him in the corner sitting next to the lawyer.
Oh Mila
Have I got a story for you. You wanna know what he is like? I told this story somewhere else and was talking to L.E. about it too.
So about a month or so ago my boss’ wife left him. She moved out and wants a divorce. This is his second marriage. His current wife has a child of her own and he has one from his first marriage.
He came to my location to get some things for the ladies in accounting. At one point we were talking shop until he got a phone call. It was his ex-wife (the first one). So for about 30 minutes I am listening to him bitch about his current wife to his ex-wife, you know, the one that literally cheated on him.
And then tries to justify himself to me about his current wife, as if I give a ….. since I know how he is and was not surprised his current wife left him. He’s quite controlling. Keeps tabs on her via tracking apps so he knows where she is all the times. Dude is definitely a piece of work. As far as doing his job, he is fine, and probably why I can deal with him. But personally ….. uh huh. That’s why him always pushing my buttons about LO got me riled up because I knew he was doing it on purpose. Momma absolutely hates him. And she’s only met him once, a long time ago.
Adam,
he sounds like an unpleasant person. Bitching about his wife to his ex-wife on the phone in front of his colleagues, that‘s enough to know about him. Better not let him in on any personal stuff, he doesn’t seem to have any decent social manners, and if work is ok with him, that’s positive and maybe confine your talk/relationship to that..
In the end, his manners/marriage are not your concern, thank God.
Maybe, if he played the banjo or ukulele..
Congratulations! 🎉🎈
Your Unconscious is an absolutely winner, and that would affect your conscious mind! Didn’t you super happy and ultimately validated in the dream?
And look at my either confusing dreams or nightmares 😒 I’d rather to stay awake all night now… but day naps do not spare me, either!
Have a happier day!
Mila, funny synchronicity there again! Gotta love the associations our unconscious makes with those ‘evil’ characters.
I suppose I’m just really tired of the limerence-inducing behavior right now. But it isn’t long ago that I did that glancing/accidental touching dance with someone. However, I’ve decided that it was all in my head, and have only acted normal and friendly since then.
Snow, I’m sorry to hear that your dreams are causing you distress! Hopefully through all those unconscious “wash cycles” you will find a more peaceful state.
You’re right, the dream did make me feel – I hesitate to say ‘content’ because it can be interpreted in many ways(!), but that’s probably it. My overall feeling in the dream was not anxious or even giddy, just pretty warm and calm. It does carry over into the conscious, at least temporarily.
I had a lapse in memory earlier – of course I’ve dreamed of LO1 before. But he’s been elusive. Many times I’ve dreamed of his apartment (but it has been distorted and looked different, with an extra maze of rooms), but I rarely saw him there.
„ But it isn’t long ago that I did that glancing/accidental touching dance with someone. However, I’ve decided that it was all in my head, and have only acted normal and friendly since then.“
That’s exactly what I’ve done, synchronicity here too!
It’s one of the shiny objects and will meet him in a few weeks again, but I decided like you that it’s all in my limerent-prone head and very unhealthy, so I will just be normal and friendly now, it’s in everyone‘s best interest and also I’m tired of this too.
Trifles,
Please watch your mood closely for the next few days, to see whether your dream has some lasting effect. I’d be very interested in hearing about it.
As Jung puts, dreams are our Unconscious trying to communicate with us about something very important, which our conscious mind could not have fully seen, or unknowingly ignored or wishfully rejected. They have functions of making us aware what’s going on deep inside of us; they show our repressed shadowy parts, which could be either positive or negative.
When one can remembers dreams, that means our mind is fully open ready to listen to that the Unconscious has to say and allow IT to adjust our conscious thinking.
Dear future band mates,
Maybe I take up the banjo, it would be fitting for a jazz band and maybe not too difficult to learn.
You see I gave this important question a lot of consideration !
Banjo, very nice, isn’t that more Irish folk? If it’s about jazz, saxophone shouldn’t be too difficult too. Same mouthpiece as clarinet, I heard, so you could hit it off with two instruments at the same time?
But I‘m all for banjo in the Amour Inn!
Yes and a sax is more sexy than a banjo too😉
But Imho, you are sexy enough in your red dress;)
Imho,
The banjo is a very happy sounding instrument. Nothing sad can ever be played on a banjo. So I will be looking forward to some good ol’ down home happiness from you and your banjo..
🤣🤣🤣
Mila, ha ha and thanks for the complement. I need another event to wear a nice dress.
MJ,
I agree and apparently it’s quite easy to learn. I’ve been seriously searching the internet.
Join me ? You can woo the ladies with your happy banjo tunes.
Imho and MJ,
you could play „Dueling Banjos“ for us!
Oh, now that would be some seriously funny $#!+..
🤣🤣🪕🪕
Seriously MJ, buy a banjo! Why not? Let’s give it a go.
I challenge you on the Duel.
That I can’t miss. At this rate I think there will need to be a real Amoors Inn by this time next year.
Dueling Banjos with giggle tea and all of you lovely people, that would be a dream, really❤️
All this talk of banjos and country music …. someone gotta play The Devil Went Down to Georgia for this city boy yankee.
By the way just to get everyone’s ire up … the Devil played better. 🙂
I just want to know who is going to dance..
🥂🪕🪕🕺💃
https://youtu.be/NFutge4xn3w
Mila,
“I love Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky both. Fantastic writers.”
The same here. By the way, I don’t think the ending of “War and Peace” is weak, it’s so unexpectedly touching, humanistic, really made me tearing….
“I need the superficial greetings to keep contact without getting personal too much. Maybe it‘ll tide us over until we settle into a new pattern.”
Yes, without a disclosure, any limerent is bound to text/chat “superficially”with all sorts of pretenses — the limerence vague, uncertainty pull-n-push dance. I just did not want that pretense anymore, since there was no way to continue the in-person “limerence dance.” 👽 knew/knows that I hated superficial and shallow communication, but he always said that he’s bonded not to respond my monologues. Frequent texting, even one-way traffic, would inevitably worsen LE or lead to EA, for sure.
Trifles, Mila
I wish I had known you both much earlier, so I could learn how to artistically and safely flirt, so I could catch a “right” knight’s head and heart (one at a time) …. That’s all I cared about while growing up with my deeply embedded cptsd.
Taught and trained by COO to avoid eye contact while speaking to anyone else, particularly men, my 👀 were always “running around” or remaining “serious/indifferent” while chatting. If my smiling 👁️ curiously paused on recipients, men, women, children, babies, dogs, horses, deers… for more than 3-5 seconds, then all sorts of puzzling reactions followed…. And it’s still happening while working… 😮💨 *sigh* 😒
I so need some trainings in effective communication and healthy flirting from you two, so as to make life more fun 😉 while being safe and civil.
Snow, what you describe is not that strange to me. I’m naturally shy so I also tend(ed) to avoid too much eye contact. I also disliked attention and I felt eye contact might encourage men so I was careful with it. I also felt – still feel – that my eyes are too expressive and give my feelings away, so I’ve also learned a “blank slate” look. It’s useful in meetings when I don’t want to choose sides. 😂
Hence, the first impression many get of me is probably ‘cool and aloof’. So they are often surprised when they get to know me!
I spoke in past tense above because I’ve only recently started to enjoy flirting on occasions where the other person’s interest wasn’t clear from the start. So it’s never too late to learn!
🫂 we are in sync!
But if many Western men are hopeless romantic like self-claimed L.E. aren’t we going to break many male hearts? I couldn’t stand to see sad/blue expressions on anyone’s face… 😞 I always ran away…
In all my posts here, any past tenses meant things/states happened only in the past, mostly excluding the present.
And haha, today I was very business-like asking a young male sales associate about some running shoes. I hadn’t done any research before walking into the store so I needed some help. Again, the guy was so shy, avoided most of my eye contact! Maybe it was just him and he was new, but this reminded me again of what Marcia told me earlier, I’m sending out some vibes now… 🙈
Yesterday an older (vs today’s guy) electronics salesman was instead a little flirty – as they should be to get the sale!
“…aren’t we going to break many male hearts?”
I suppose age works as a shield now. 😂 Now I’ve got the courage to flirt, because I know the younger (or older for that matter!) men aren’t going to have rescue fantasies about a poor helpless young thing. And they know and I know they’re not going to take advantage of me, I’ve got the upper hand. 😅
You might still be too young though 😉
Trifles,
Interesting, me, I‘m not sure if I feel more secure in flirting because of my age like you, or if I’m scared to come over as a pathetic older woman who forgot her age and thinks she can still attract like a 20something..I‘m quite scared of that because it’s hard to know.
But I see your point, it’s more fun if there is not too much danger involved that someone might take me really serious…
Mila, ooh, yes. When I see young men noticing me in a pick-up friendly situation (the rare occasion I find myself in a bar), I divert my eyes VERY quickly so as not to give them the remote idea that I would EVER consider them or deem myself to be the correct object of their glances. So yes, very self-conscious in that regard! But every-day run-of-the-mill friendly ‘flirting’ is fine. 😅
Trifles,
the confusing thing is that I’ve got one fan or admirer or whatever (I’m not attracted at all though, too obvious..) who is about 18 years younger, maybe he‘s onto the experience with an older woman or whatever, but I truly think I attract some younger men while some not, and it’s hard to discern.
My LO 2 was 15 years younger and he definitely fancied me a lot.
Of course I don’t want anything to go on with them, having my SO; I only talk about flirting a bit and if I should feel too old and pathetic if the guy is young.
My SO is someone who just doesn’t do flirting. Women love him but he just stays polite and a bit aloof. I think he knows that I‘m more into little flirts than him and doesn’t really understand, but tolerates because he saw in the course of over twenty years that it’s never anything that could threaten him(not even the LEs).
Mila, From the impression I get from you here I don’t think you would be mistaken for a cougar. (There’s another word that probably needs to be ‘reclaimed’ as well…) So keep your head high and be yourself. No need to diminish yourself based on what you think others think. I’m saying this to myself as well. No one needs to be everyone’s cup of tea anyway!
That sounds like a healthy dynamic that your SO doesn’t mind you enjoying a flirt here or there.
Hi Trifles
you are absolutely right, but I still worry. It’s something about not being aware of how time goes on, being afraid of waking up and having missed that one grew old. I know that I look young for my age, but I still age, and it’s some insecurity about how I might come over to others (not only in looks) versus how I perceive myself.
Maybe it’s because I’ve got so many younger colleagues and friends. My LOs were all younger, even my SO is a bit younger.
„That sounds like a healthy dynamic that your SO doesn’t mind you enjoying a flirt here or there.“
I wouldn’t say he doesn’t mind, I’d say he‘d rather I wouldn’t, but hasn’t got much choice, so tolerates it, or better, overlooks it. I wouldn’t flirt in front of him, of course, but I‘m sure he knows that I’ve got more of that special male/female interaction going on than him.
I sometimes wonder why I seem to need it and he doesn’t. But he‘s generally not very interested in social gatherings, parties, anything, he’s got one best friend and even they don’t meet that often although they have strong connection over years. He‘s content with family and being alone. Sometimes I wish I would be more like that, but then, I love people. They are interesting and I need them.
Hi Mila,
But that is such a double standard! And I hate double standards… (You’ve got me on a rant now, others can skip the following if they want!) Have you heard the men here – they have absolutely no qualms about going after women half their age!* No worries about looking or sounding too old for them. Or ok, they might have worries, but ultimately they push them aside.
And I’m sure the younger men that are fans of yours don’t just have a fetish for ‘older women’ but genuinely find you attractive.
*) I’m not drawing a direct comparison to you here because I know you’re not ‘going after’ anyone. I’m talking to/about women in general and the double standards that get them down for no reason.
Personally I’m most attracted to men my age or a few years younger. But I wouldn’t judge pairings where the woman is e.g. 15 years older.
I think we need more older women role models. I just recently saw a local actress in a striking ball gown. She’s about 60 years old but has beautiful legs ‘up to there’ – and she chose to show them off with a slit almost as high. She looked fabulous! And here I’ve been worried about wearing something short since I’ve been 30…
I’ve also come to admire older women with ‘sass’ as LaR would say.
Hi Trifles,
of course you are right.
I also admire older women with sass and think they are as attractive if not more than some of the puppy-like girls. But I also see older women who dress in tight and short stuff and act like puppy-like girls, where I get an uncomfortable feeling with. There‘s a difference between confident and beautiful age and denying age while everyone else sees you‘ve aged. The latter one is what I‘m afraid if, and at the same time I kind of know I’m the last person that could happen to, actually, but still..
I absolutely agree with double standards.
It’s astonishing how self-confident some men are with their paunches and losing hair and everything. I wish I had more of that self-confidence.
Oh Trifles, don’t start me with ‘sass’, I might 🔥🔥 right at the moment if I think too much about that word and all its
associations!! It is *such* an attractive quality!!
One of my best female friends, just over 40yo at the time, went out with a guy who was 20. His mother was her age (and boy did that bit cause some problems 😂). It didn’t end well, so I can’t offer this as a fairytale … but the pairing was possible and lasted 2 or 3 years. I don’t think he saw her as a ‘cougar’ – she did/does look after herself very well and take pride in her appearance. That age gap was a bit too big though and did cause a lot of issues.
Speaking of course ‘as man’, I don’t ever really imagine why a woman half my age would be attracted to me. But I have actually been proved wrong about that a couple of times in my life. Some women do like an older man – it isn’t always a lost cause.
To each their own, ideally. But I do really get both your points about the double standards. Dammit, what did I start when I mentioned “the F word” yesterday?!
It amuses me to ponder what couples with a huge age gap discuss … “Remember that great goal in the final of Euro 96?”, “Nah love, remember I wasn’t born then”
That kind of ‘in the shops’ flirting has always been easier for me too than in a ‘pick up’ venue. Fact: I once successfully asked a girl out in a supermarket!
Replied in the wrong place again…
*I didn’t mean I mind older women wearing short and tight stuff- if it looks good, why not!
I mean the feeling of them wearing it because they want to look younger than they are.
Mila,
“There‘s a difference between confident and beautiful age and denying age while everyone else sees you‘ve aged. The latter one is what I‘m afraid of…”
I know – that is a ‘fear’ for me as well, and one that realistically doesn’t seem relevant for me. But sometimes it’s good to examine our ‘fears’ – why do we hold such behavior (‘denying one’s age’ by dressing/acting young) with contempt/pity, etc? What are we afraid of? I think trying to look young is more about pressures in our societies and succumbing to them. Apparently it takes a lot of guts to age naturally nowadays… And I agree, that is sad. I’m having a tough time putting this shortly, because some people just might like to dress a certain way without it meaning that they are denying their age…
LaR,
“Dammit, what did I start when I mentioned “the F word” yesterday?!”
I know you’re kidding but don’t worry, equality and double standards are topics I stumble into regularly with no instigation needed.
“That kind of ‘in the shops’ flirting has always been easier for me too than in a ‘pick up’ venue.”
Actually, for me it’s the opposite. Like many(?) introverts, I have an on/off switch. I fare better at extraverted things when I know what’s expected of me. Flirting is expected in bars but not at the bus stop. So I can turn on the charm in a bar but be taken aback on the bus stop (happened to me once).
Kudos for the supermarket success! 😀 (The girl was probably E and P 😉)
Last year I finally watched Mozart in the Jungle on Prime; Bernadette Peters was about 60 then, and easily one of the most beautiful and confident characters. I noted how she “filled out her dress” (which accentuated her figure to best advantage every time) and decided I want to do the same at 60. 🙂 She had aged, but aged well, and obviously healthy. That being the key: Stay healthy and you’ll look good even if you have some wrinkles and gray hair.
As for age gaps—My crushes these days tend to range about 15 years in either direction. Sometimes more if they’re older, but not so much younger. Too much younger and they’re too close to the age of my child, even though officially an adult.
I don’t want to judge other couples according to some arbitrary “ruler”; if they love each other and treat each other well, that should be all that counts. Still, there is that little social conditioning that kicks in inside my head: “Isn’t he too old for her?” But I see a lot of that these days, at least online, people judging too wide of an age gap as “predatory.” It gets ridiculous in my opinion, people being judged as “predators” when their age gap isn’t really that big.
Hi Snow,
I‘m not a talented flirter either. I can only do it when I‘m lighthearted and feeling at ease, which is not the case when limerent. When I have feelings, I’m, like Trifles, scared that my eyes might give me away, and I (like Trifles) made the experience that many men and also women think that I want to be left alone and don’t dare to approach me or flirt.
I think you got me wrong- my superficial texting with XLO hasn‘t got anything to do with limerence anymore. It‘s to preserve the husk of friendship so we stay in touch and can maybe get to a more superficial but still warm connection after our altercation last month.
*I didn’t mean I mind older women wearing short and tight stuff- if it looks good, why not!
I mean the feeling of them wearing it because they want to look younger than they are.
„What are we afraid of? I think trying to look young is more about pressures in our societies and succumbing to them.“
On the one hand that’s absolutely true.
On the other hand it’s also true that as we get older, we have to say goodbye to youth, that we change, our bodies change, we cannot expect to exert the same level of attraction to younger people.
We get more aches and concerns. We get also more wise and content, maybe, but there’s no denying that we also lose some stuff, and that an old person cannot do/be/expect exactly the same as a young person, as much as we would like it .
I mean, I do think every age can be beautiful, and I‘m all in when you say that society is at fault to look down on older people or celebrate only older people who seem to have stopped time.
Still, there’s no denying that we get older and weaker, get to the sidelines of a certain kind of procreation-race/competition.
I‘m on a sad note, I know (where are the banjos??).
But as you‘ve noticed, one of my absurd fears is to wake up and see I missed a whole development, like I should have done something else with my life, I should have educated the kids completely differently, or like here, I’m old for quite a while and everyone saw but me…
(as every time I think of the first two I realize that I wouldn’t have it done differently, maybe the third one is also unnecessary. Still there.)
Mila, that’s a good conclusion to have arrived at – that if given another chance you would probably do the same things over again. That’s what I’ve figured out for myself as well. And I have tried e.g. different jobs and a couple of different careers. It’s never too late to try a different way of doing things.
Still, I’m having difficulties in following your analogy to aging. Wouldn’t it just mean that your attitude toward your aging should be the same as your attitude toward life in general, i.e. to do it your way? Sorry, sometimes I trip over myself when these discussions get too philosophical. 😉
And of course it’s good to think about these big questions, but for now – you are young! Enjoy it!
I know you asked for banjos – maybe Imho and MJ can try to learn this on the banjo:
https://youtu.be/qUE4oDunYkc
Trifles,
„ Sorry, sometimes I trip over myself when these discussions get too philosophical. 😉“
No no, you are absolutely clear-headed and a big help while I muddle a bit in my moods- I‘m in the first small throes of perimenopause, not being that young anymore ;), that’s why I mull over aging, probably also caused by hormones going a bit out of whack, shooting this and that way.
No, I‘m overall very happy with how I lived my life and count myself under the lucky ones , also concerning looks/age, but age seems to occupy my mind from time to time , also because I see my parents aging.
But thanks for saying that I should do it my way, I need to hear that from time and time since I depend a bit too much on other people’s opinion. That’s a positive about age, I slowly start to care less. And, when I see/hear your song (hilarious , definitely want to hear it from Imho and MJ!), I didn’t even have that kind of youth so much- I was much more insecure and introvert than now, and started really enjoying things without too much self-doubt as late as in my mid-twenties, I guess.
And when I look at my young colleagues- they are such beautiful creatures but I see them struggling too with finding partners, defining themselves, doubting their worth in work etc, I’m actually past that and much more ok with myself.
So, sorry for wallowing in fears of decaying and vanishing from sight!
Apparently there is a cross between banjo and ukulele, maybe that’s for you, Trifles?
https://youtu.be/3KQyba0erGk
But someone besides LE should play an instrument that plays the tune, like sax.
Even if you feel old now, think of it this way: in 10 years, 20 years, … You will look back on this time and think: “Oh, I was young!”
I, for example, am so self-conscious I used to hate having my picture taken. I may look at my pictures critically but I realised that in 10 years I will look at recent ones and say: “Oh, that was when I was young and had abs…” 😜
And I agree, that’s a huge positive from getting older: caring less about what others think. I also sometimes feel I’ve been mentally somewhat middle-aged most of my life, but with a little bit of that 13-year-old peeking through some of the time. Now that you care less what others think, you should also let that girl out more!
That banjo ukulele sounds pretty good! I did get kind of interested in banjos too yesterday. I may surprise myself and pick up an instrument…
We just need a keyboardist now for Amoor’s jazz combo.
I think I’ll have a giggle-boggle now to get the day started on the right foot. Enjoy the day!
Trifles,
You‘ve got a point there.
Also, I can stand a certain amount if very bad pictures myself now very well, I’m like „well, maybe I look like that sometimes, so what“ while my younger colleagues dissolve in agony and self-criticism if I send one of my bad pictures of them their way (I‘m very talented at taking very unflattering pictures). I stopped sending them out of pity 😉
I think Snow is our keyboarder since she takes piano lessons. We need someone with a mellow voice. You‘ve got one, no?
I can imagine Imho with a mellow voice too. Or we simply take the Mila- Voice from Voice-over on Android, Imho! Maybe she can sing as I cannot.
I forgot Lost in Space,
he definitely can sing and play the guitar.
Outside of this middle age limerent affair deal I have to say I am enjoying getting older. At least in mind and attitude. Not so much body. 🙂
Particularly in not putting so much stock in people’s opinions of me that don’t matter. And getting better at not taking things people do say about me personally but scrutinizing what they do say internally to better myself rather than judging the messenger. It’s brought me a lot of peace of mind. And seems to settle discord fast and effectively. Looking back I can’t believe how 20 something me even survived life. 🙂
We can ask Lowendj to make an appearance. He’s one of the original posters on LwL. His stories about the band can be found in early blogs.
Mila, I have the same experience with photos – just recently I looked horrible (pregnant!) in a photo that was also sent to my semi-glimmery colleague. Before, I would have been horrified, but now I got over it quickly. I thought: I know I don’t look like that normally (hello, where did the abs go so quickly?!) – and he knows it too. Either I have body dysmorphia or self-confidence now. 😂
Adam, well said! I’ve also gotten better at just letting people’s opinions of me slide – when I can’t do anything with them. And I also accept my flaws better now, while still trying to work on things that I can change.
„I know I don’t look like that normally (hello, where did the abs go so quickly?!) – and he knows it too.“
Exactly. When I see bad pictures of people I know, do I go „oh THAT‘s what they look like?“ No, I just think, what a bad photo.
That’s what hopefully everyone else does too when they see bad photos of me..
Adam,
I still work on that attitude towards criticism;) not only that I don’t judge the messenger , but also that I don’t get depressed and „I’m good at nothing“ etc. But getting better, too.
I’ve done a bunch of research recently to try to figure out why my selfie pics keep looking so bad, or the little Zoom camera picture. It’s not what I see in the mirror. Of course part of that is the mirror is flipped, but it’s also things like lighting and the quality of the camera. And selfies tend to distort your features. Anyway, when I’m on Zoom, I keep the camera turned off. 😛 SO tells me that the cameras are lying to me, because he saw some 20-year-old pics of me and said I had barely changed.
I think part of that is from weight loss. 15 years ago, friends took a pic of me when I thought I looked really good, and in the pic I looked so fat. And they posted it on Facebook. There are other pictures of me that other people posted and still show up any time someone clicks on my profile. I was about 30 pounds heavier back then. So I can compare then and now and really feel I look better now, even though back then I was mid-30s.
I also started getting into goth back around 2002 and in those days, still in my 20s, I felt self-conscious wearing more of the fashions, but I loved them and wanted to wear them. At 51, however, I’ve lost a lot of that self-consciousness and just want to wear what I like when I like. And other people LIKE the stuff I wear (including LO, lol). I don’t go to extremes, and make sure whatever I wear is flattering. So instead of people saying “oh you’re dressing too young,” they compliment me. And, well, a lot of the bands are in my age group anyway and still putting out music and wearing the fashions, so I don’t feel so much like it’s a “youth” subculture.
You are Ella —
https://youtu.be/lgHGU8gqz9U?si=RRuBGxItV61drpBH — Ella, Elle l’a
Hello everyone, I wish you all a very happy new year! Thought this would be a good time to share an update on my LO. Did a lot of travelling, and the change of environment has been welcome. I have been feeling better mentally. I must mention that I ran into LO recently. We exchanged hellos and had some small talk, so overall, a good experience. I am hoping that I will feel better in the new year with regards to my LO, and wish the same for each one of you. Cheers.
Hi ABCD,
Happy new year to you!
Sounds great, the way you handled recent contact with your LO!
I hope the year will go on like that for you- so good to hear that you are feeling better.
Mila,
“I don’t see why one cannot be a feminist and still appreciate some chivalry? Feminism is about basic rights and not about turning into a man, I guess.”
I was totally trying to pull your collective legs there. It is funny sometimes, being a guy who (in life, and on LwL) tends to talk much more to women (we’d call it “a man in touch with his feminine side”). This means I can sometimes be a ‘lone wolf male perspective’ in girl-chat. I share a workspace that is all women apart from me, and so am often called upon as the ‘token man’. I sometimes drift into this role on LwL too. It’s a role I choose for myself – so most definitely not a complaint – but I hope you don’t mind that I do (as ‘moderator and protector Mila’ – and yes, I am now pulling your leg!)
I agree with your perspective about feminism. I said that comment to Trifles in jest, who I thought / hoped would get the gist of my humour. Personally, I still want to be a traditional and chivalrous man, hold doors open for women, (generally) make the first move (when I can), offer to pay the bill (while not disallowing a woman’s right to tell me she wants to split it), that sort of thing. I get really that feminism doesn’t disallow any of that – I was just trying to being ironic. So I am glad to hear that there are women out there who still appreciate these things. I would say more women do than are prepared to admit it openly. Would you agree? Could be slightly different between our cultures.
Hi LaR,
you see how difficult it is here to identify jokes, you could have very well been serious, as I don’t know you that well.
I‘d say too that most women like it, but only if in a certain equal respectful manner, and I don’t necessarily need it. If it’s too much, I prefer not to have it and just be equal, split bills and hold the door for each other, no matter if male or female.
Naturally most men are physically stronger than me, so I appreciate if they help me carry things or open bottles, that kind of thing, but actually, I would appreciate it from a strong woman too.
Still, it’s attractive if a man takes care of these things.
Yeah, I realise I was in dangerous territory even trying to raise my feminist joke. We are probably destined here to always have to make ‘clarifications’. I am always happy to explain if something I say sounds ambiguous – so thanks for asking the question to give me that opportunity.
And Mila, thanks for the different explanations for my LO’s texting behaviours. They all make sense as possibilities. I think you are the subject matter expert on texting!!
LO’s moral code is very strong indeed. It has several times been made clear (of course, in a non accusatory and limerent dancing way, that doesn’t remotely touch upon the elephant in the room) that she is not someone who would *ever* engage in ‘relationship overlap’. I am pleased she communicated it as it helped cement a boundary that needed to be there. It must be really difficult in her position to be friends with me if she has any suspicion of my feelings for her (and she surely must do). I know I praise this woman too much, but doesn’t it says a lot for her strength of character how she maintains friendship in this situation?? You can all well see how difficult I find that to navigate, and I am the one with an SO.
Hi LaR,
I‘m sure your LO is a praiseworthy
woman, but it could be that you assign her too much knowledge/consciousness of the situation. Most probably she just acts like it‘s in her nature, and doesn’t think too much about it or takes special care. Just saying that it could be, having a bit experience in LE‘s;) We tend to read too much into our LOs.
Thanks Mila, I appreciate that little jolt out of the lim-brain and back to reality.
Your point highlights two things to me: 1. limerents’ tendency to over analyse (and that I’m as guilty as the next person); 2. that our LOs don’t, in fact, spend all their time thinking about it like we do.
Cheers 🥂 Drink on the house?!
I send Mila’s opinion here.
„Drink on the house?!“
Not feeling up to it tonight, still a little bit ill, also I think I surely owe you a drink or two for moderating in the past.
Let’s go Dutch or whatever you call it;)
Typo: I second Mila’s observation and opinion…
My nose is still congested, but better with the help of fresh -ginger tea — absolutely no sugar or honey!
Mila,
Deal!
It is quite interesting how LwL kind of self moderates, without any moderators, when you think about it.
Hope you (and you too Snow) feel fully better soon.
Hi Snow and LaR,
I don’t have a cold but an upset stomach, some kind of bug, but it’s already better. Still tired all the time, though.
Get better soon too, Snow!
Maybe you could serve fresh gingertea at the Inn, I love it too, even when not ill.
I’m tutoring for 3 hours starting on 5 minutes.
Fresh sliced giggle tea is free at the inn.
Snow,
fresh sliced giggle tea!
I‘d love to try that!
The giggle tea must come with the “dueling banjos” performance 🤭
For Zeus’ heaven, ginger tea is “evolved” into “giggle” tea in L’Amoor! And It seemed to have made every patron giggling more 🤭
Sometimes, ESL, typos, auto-correction are more importuned, needed, and appreciated than all those righteous spelling or idioms! 😳
Ignorance is blessings! Cheer with our beloved Giggle tea 🫖 or bubbling beer! 🍺
To be accurate: the Freshly Sliced Giggle Tea! 🍵
Snow,
It sounds delicious and healthy and is my favorite drink from now on!
Giggle tea probably has something in it besides tea. 😉
SL,
If you take the tea, you WILL giggle, regardless your gender, race, age, appearance, size, sexual orientation, profession, or education…
What elixir is in it? 😋
Just back from my daytime work…
Brewing my freshly sliced giggle tea now…
It’s free to share, the Amoor gang!
Is it ‘ginger’ plus ‘boggle’? The 🧠 is always boggled after drinking it, but what is doing the boggling? (SL – you appear to know?)
LaR,
You just name it! The two main ingredients of Giggle tea — Ginger + Boggle, and something more beyond any words in any tongue could name or describe, N & P filed…😜
I think there should be a tea made simply out of freshly sliced giggles, and one with ginger+boggle.
The really strong one will be giggle+boggle. Don’t serve it to the welder please, he‘ll set the place on fire again.
Customers are God! Mila, your suggestion are taken!
Also, I’ll tale the keyboard for the inn — https://youtu.be/icZob9-1MDw?si=zVnBrWAo-ZH124Dq-Minuet in G Major — Bach
Clumsy as it is, better than my voice worse than dock cracking 🐣
Snow, maybe this version
https://youtu.be/BzK5aFx2b0M
Thanks, Mila, for the link.
The teacher asks to play the piece in 6 moods — joy, pissed, melancholy, confused, peaceful, teasing, or whatever.
Lim-a-rant
When I got home from work one day, our oldest son was dressed nice and pacing up and down the hallway. I went and made a drink and asked my son “what’s up?” “I’m going on my first official date with [lady friend] tonight. We are going to dinner together.” I asked “So what’s the issue?” He says “I am nervous. We’ve never been out together in public alone. I need some advice.” I thought for a minute and then told him “There’s two things a lady’s hand should never touch on a FIRST date; a door or the check. And it doesn’t hurt to pull out her chair for her too.”
I have told that story to a variety of people different ages, genders, nationalities and sexual preferences and have got responses from one end of “sexist” to “aww that’s sweet” and everything in between. So yes I think there is room for chivalry/manners and feminism. If anything being called a sexist for saying something like that just lets me know you are one of the extremist loud-mouth feminist. Not the ones actually working to bring men and women together as equals in the ways that we should.
Very nicely said Adam – thank you for sharing. I can’t do any better so I won’t add much – just restate my point to Mila earlier that a part of it is to give a woman those options (chivalry) and also give them the right to take it or not, and work with that. (And that it can get us in a mess with LOs – I am sure you relate). I’m also sure from all I get of you on here that you’re amazing at it, and your sons probably will be too.
It’s good to push our Sons to do right, have manners and be the perfect gentleman. I hope for your Son’s sake, she is not one of those brainwashed, feminist-movement types, that believes the Patriarchy is bad and has no right to be so obliging and pay for everything. So many younger Women seem very adamant about that, so I hope she doesn’t find him rude for doing so.
My Son and his better half have been together for quite awhile and they seem like a good match. I’m proud that he’s been raised right and knows how to treat a Lady. They are very good to one another.
Him and I also work together now and many of the females at work have complimented how sweet he is. Even Lady Friend said he’s nicer than me.. (I glared at her and was like Wtf?? 🤯) I give his Mother credit for that mainly, but I suppose I had a hand in it too.
Trifles,
“who knows, maybe it will clear your head a little? Think of it as a cleanse. 😁”
Our 12-step analogy falls down a bit because the bottle of beer always leads back to the bottle of vodka in that situation. But sorry, I am trivialising there – my LE situation absolutely isn’t pre-destined to go the same way. I do get your ‘cleanse’ point. Last year this time period did just that, and I am hopeful it will do the same this year. The trick is to work out how to make that more cleansed state last/stick.
“Continuing with this “weaning off” analogy – could you work on cutting those shorter? (Though I think you said that you don’t text often.)”
Yeah it is basically a non-issue during ‘normal times’. These inbetween times provide a scary glimpse into the future for if and when I ever encounter a Mila-type situation of becoming geographically distant from a previously in-person LO. I salute those of you who can make text-based relationships work, as I reckon, to quote some of Speedwagon’s old wisdom, that “texting is the devil’s playground for limerence”.
“Oh yes, the first days were an hour-by-hour, if not minute-by-minute, battle! But after maybe 5-6? days it got easier”
Just thank you for saying that – the minute-by-minute is quite a thing to put out there, but I too have felt like that at times – thankfully not all the time! Agree that 5-6 days is the peak / easing point.
“And that is a shame – I love stories about gifts!”
I so wish I could tell you but can’t. And yes, I read some of your ‘gift’ stories 🤣🤣
“Let me know when you are heading over to the agriculture forum. I don’t think I can go over there alone, I’m afraid they would eat me alive! 😬”
I plough at 8am on a frosty December Saturday, remember. What makes you think I’d fare any better with a bunch of farming enthusiasts?
(Re dreams etc) Is your LO1 one from a long time ago or were both other LEs (excluding TO) recent?
Maybe I shouldn’t say this, but LaR, you can’t really do wrong by me here at this point. I was fully ready to let the feminist ‘joke’ (which I also didn’t realise was a joke) slide. 😉
As for gift stories, I’m reading between the lines that you can’t beat mine. 😁
LO1 was about a dozen years ago. I’d like to say that I was young and stupid, but I really wasn’t that young. So yes, it is possible to get mental closure (in your dreams!) after a dozen years! 😜 (I had actually probably mostly forgotten about LE1 until I came on LwL. So I didn’t really need the ‘closure’. It’s just a distant bitter-sweet memory that serves as a cautionary tale for me.)
“Maybe I shouldn’t say this”
Trifles, I won’t let you hang – it is really lovely that you feel you can and want to say it, and that you did. I am having a bit of a trying day to be honest, and it brought a smile to my face 🥰 Random act of kindness for day accomplished ✅️
“As for gift stories, I’m reading between the lines that you can’t beat mine. 😁”
No, not that one with LO1 of yours, no!! Who could?! (Maybe karma finally came back to benefit you in that dream last night 😉). Can’t remember the other one to LO2, although I did read all your gift banter once with Frederico (I never got to talk to that legend) and MJ (I did). If I told you what mine was, your jaw would drop open initially, but it is quite innocent really. I so wish I could. I should not have teased about this because I really can’t 😕 One day over cocktails and jazz music at Amoors maybe.
LaR,
I had 4 different gifts planned for LF for her bday this year.. Didn’t get a stinkin single one to her. All due to that $#!+ hitting the fan when I told her I had them and disclosed some feelings..
Yeah, I still gotta get to that update for you..
Working on it..
😑😑
Come on MJ – get that update out to us and you’ll feel better just for venting it in this space.
I’ve got half a bottle of Courvoisier free here at Amoors with your name on it to ease the process.
My pleasure! ☺️ I thought maybe I shouldn’t say it, because it might not be wise to give someone a ‘free pass’ on the interwebs. I don’t want you to start testing my limits now… 😜 We’ve seen stranger things happen.
And nah, I don’t have any hard feelings toward LO1. It was enough karma that he was seemingly pining after me long after I had moved on. But apparently my unconscious still wanted to deal with it. (Actually, I’m sure my dream was more of a mish-mash of several people/ideas taking his shape, but it was a nice – and validating – shape to take 😅)
I promise I won’t take the mick on the free pass (deliberately anyway)
But oh dear this place (lacking 90% of normal comms channels, not least the 👀) is so riven with misunderstanding potential! I meant *good* karma – the nice fun gift you sent LO1 (I assume it was sent as fun?!) returned eventually with a pleasant/spicy dream … are you with me now?!
I get rather curious as to the gift stories. Have I missed them?
Yes, I think I kind of got the gist of it earlier. Just the word ‘karma’ for me somehow has the connotation of ‘leveling the field’, and that moved my thoughts astray.
And yes the gift was fun/funny (bordering on poking fun) and taken as such, based on something (oh, what ever could it be..?) that he had mentioned to me while being a bit fresh.
Mila,
My gift story is 🤐 for now – sorry (and no, I haven’t managed to secretly tell Trifles either). One day maybe, if you keep going Dutch with me.
❄️🐦🔥,
Re your latest about ‘The Phantom’ … [and apologies for starting so many new threads, but I have completely lost the will to scroll while it is this busy here] …
NO, you can’t, shouldn’t and musn’t destroy a part of yourself (nurtured since childhood)!! Even if a mythical 🐦🔥 has to die to be reborn, it needn’t be true of part of a person. If that means it continues to wear, or partly wear, 👽🎭 for now, then so it needs to be. I think it will change shape (wear the mask less/ not wear it eventually) – you just need to continue to slowly nurture it yourself, allow others to do the same, and to some extent just be patient and trust the process.
I know none of that is or will be easy. But if I think of the alternative for you that you mentioned – demonise 👽 and by association (you say) destroy your phantom/ muse – *that would be worse for you – much worse* than the other course of action that you’re already well into charting.
I hope I am just affirming here what you already know really. If not, well, I may have just delivered a ‘zinger’. I don’t normally tell LwL people things with this level of confidence – and I have waited in your case until I got enough information and got all my related questions answered to be pretty certain (T brain – can’t experience it with F of course).
And look, I know neither way will / would be easy for you. I do get that. It is so much easier to say anything from a 👻✒️ than to live it. Your L’Amoors crew are here for you 🫂
By the way – on the ‘he’, ‘she’ or ‘it’ point – you call the phantom whatever feels right to you – my point was never meant to be a language-checking issue, more of an interest in how you *conceptualise* IT. And that may well evolve too.
(Reply to longer message later. Briefly for now – OCD explanation for MFF makes some sense but I have tended to think of it as a super-active P trait – maybe that’s the same thing though?)
At this moment, 👽 is nothing but a demon 😈 —
On the first day returning to work after a long winter break, he
1. slighted me without a polite greeting!
2. Pitied me like a hungry puppy, not even a lone-wolf, by handing me over supposedly pork (I dislike very much) leftover directly in a dirty-looking plastic bag, not even in a decent lunch box; then it turned to be half-melted, crumbed brownish sugar powder — not even eatable bread crumbs!
3. Cruelly, in a full-swing flirted with another woman in front of my naked 👀 ! I want to 👽🥊
My fist 👊🏻 is still tightened … perhaps it’s a right opportunity to sever the🎭. The Unconscious with images has undeniable power over the conscious!
LaR,
Responding your post is turning me to an authentic 🦉!
”You’ll know this now, but adults in the West tend not to mind emotional/ girlish – many men quite like it in a woman, to an extent anyway. “
I don’t like it in girls/women, but in boys/men. Before you came on board, I had several discussions with Y-K-W about this — almost all my xLOs had strong femininity. It’s like Tomboy/animus inside me is drawn/attracted to Tomgirl/anima inside boys/men.
“But what I don’t know is whether that kind of man would be the kind you’d want to befriend or attract, or whether you prefer the more T kind (I think the T kind? More the Lawyer than the Welder??
Macho/protecting kind of guy’s don’t’ attract me, I’m already a worrier myself, no need to be “protected”. The two stereotypes here are at the two end — the Lawyer has his ⚽️ ⚽️ in his brain (no 🔐 is needed); the Welder his brain in his ⚽️ ⚽️. It needs T & F to be well balanced, wiin F holding slight upper hand. I’d befriend with someone who could equally T with me in daytime and F-tangle with me in the evening.
“We all have an inner child that wants to react just like a real child would.”
Inner child, of course, has almost all F. She wants a reliable parent exclusively loves and devotes to her.
“Were no hints ever given in conversations between the two of you about whether he read them?? I’m fascinated that you continued to send them, not knowing the answer.”
They were all blue ✅, but it does not mean he necessarily read or carefully read them. I asked him once 2 years before the end, he said he read most of them, but not everyone. Based on the in-person chats, I believed he did what he told me. He had incredible memory and could retell later some of stuff that I said.
You see, here makes my case unique (as far as I see), especially since the 2nd phrase of LE (knowing I could not get EA but casual PA if I agreed) —
1. Monologuing to a Phantom within(very vague first), not the realistic xLO
2. Not waiting for or expecting any replies (extra happy if received).
3. Possible replies were scripted automatically by imagination and readily accepted as “truth” in mind — indirect self validating. [What is perceived in mind makes a subjective truth, which is not refuted by any objective truth — silence is non-refuting or non-validating ( but not invalidating)
4. Monologuing is a crafting/creating process, fulfilling in its process and brings “high”, like a runner’s high.
5. While creating/talking to characters, does a writer need/expect realistic replies from his/her characters?
6. Writing/monologuing/journaling is therapeutic especially when expressing one’s repressed F sides without fear.
7. When an ear is silently listening, treat silence as non-judging.
8. It’s a realistic, nerve-raking practice of Stoicism. Imagination/👁️ could see/hear possible mocking, laughing, dismissing… which could be taken care by the Stoic mindset and principles.
9. Liberating long repressed T & F, while speaking up one’s T & F truths (not worldly trivials) to a silent, accepting ear.
10. using LE to build a mental/emotional shield unexpectedly led to self-discovery, self-actualizing journey. While bearing LE’s non-reciprocating pains, my authentic monologuing turned LE to be beneficial, by my own hands.
11. Trying to cutting/stop Schopenhauer’s depressive insight — Life swings like a pendulum between boredom and desires.
12. Trying to reach Nietzsche’s ideal — keep the desire alive (can be achieved only by not getting the desired) If that 👆🏼stops, the desire dies; then boredom sits in.
Oh, boy! By explaining it to you, my finger gets itchy again! Do you now understand better why❓
I’ve tried avoid laying these reasons down in a list; 👽 sort of knew my deep-layer goal, and assured me that my monologues did not bother him. If I expected even 1% of something back from him, then it became painful. If I focused on content of monologuing/writing as a piece of “living art”, then I only got “high” after clicking send. Sometime, a message did not get checked for a whole week but mattered not. Did they get really read, I did/do not know for sure; could not and would not make any assumptions. (A 100% Stoic assumes the worst, but I’m 80% of one)
Based on DrL’s theories, the desire here could be that comforting “longing” or it could be a limerence with the desire/love itself, not really the desired object/LO. However, I don’t feel much of longing nowadays but a bit drifting like a leaf. So I try to focus on here or now at work or here in our Inn. Without the unquenchable longing (my cptsd induced), things in reality or the ghost land become more interesting.
Now, do you reckon I’m still “normal” or out of mind? If you MFF did what I did, while you had refrained texting or emails, how would you feel? Do you think who benefits more — the monologuer or the recipient (assume he did read)?
“It seems worse in the younger generations. We need more of a combination of the Eastern T and the Western F.”
Yes. By proportion, there is a great deficiency in T in the West, while an astronomical poverty in F in COO, in which T is also decreasing in younger generation with a very slow F rising. COO system is too controlling and inhuman.
“Try and notice how others inject F and T, and also how they respond to being talked to in F and T ways.”
Nowadays, I’m paying more attention in reading others’ posts. Before, my mind was too busy engaged in so many activities.
“I have always seen this tendency in her as an example of a very strong leaning to P – whatever gets her interest at that second, that’s what she pursues “
Please explain in your words what this super-active P trait deals with, OCD equals P traits? I only know its superficial meaning but can’t quite grasp how it works in a relationship. Why is it attractive to you particularly❓
“(aside – have I convinced you that the MBTI has more merit than you used to think it did? We talk using the letters quite a lot these days and seem to understand each other when we do). “
Not quite yet! I can understand and use T, F, N, S better, a bit I, E, not other letters yet.
“My first thought was to think it is about your wish to separate yourself / parts of yourself from COO. “
In reality, I’ve done so a great deal in F and T; but on the subconscious level, much work needs to be done, ie. Remove those collective criticizing, judging, punitive voices, or this deep fear installed by the COO system since birth. Remember that three 🐅 🐅 🐅 in my dream? One of them is the COO — the biggest one sitting in the middle of that road. The other two tigers were slain through my two dreams (killing a coch roach and flattering Mom’s face), I’m waiting for this 3rd one, in which I could somehow beat COO. I suspect It will be a huge, scary fight.
“Perhaps on some level, also self doubt and guilt that you feel like that.”
0%! I’ll always keep the best essence of COO, its ancient collective wisdom and lasting philosophies. But the Red COO? Never❗️
“Does divorce from xSO (?CAA) have some link to that issue – does divorce with him have to be rubber stamped to ‘divorce’ from COO? “
Not at all. xSO is from a WASP family with French and Scottish origin, and too much F with which I fell in love within 5 seconds through a window in a cross building….
“Or – alternative explanation – is it more about pulling off ET’s mask and the COO stuff is the smokescreen/ protector because your mind (even subconscious) isn’t quite ready yet for that prospect? “
Nope. By comparison, no one is or could be a bigger enemy than Red COO, I’d rather deal with 10 more 👽 if I can get COO inhuman impact out of my subconscious!
However, it was COO that would accuse and condemn my LE for 👽, and make it entirely my fault as if I had control of my Fs. COO ignores, mocks, oppresses all sort of normal human emotions, considering them either weak, stupid, or immoral. Now if one suddenly has feelings for a married one, that’s considered immoral and stupid regardless if one has taken any actions yet; one has to hide it and kill it! Thoughts are crimes; we were trained how to thought-policing ourselves.
This helps to explain my interpretation of the dream —
I’m trying to inform/convince COO (symbolized as a form) that I had already divorced👽 — CAA, so COO/form could inform the society that he and I were no longer together, so I would be scandal free and re-enter the society.
However, in reality we were never together (I was “married” to 👽 only in my head perhaps?). So as I was waiting for a copy of divorce paper, CAA changed in my head as my xSO, with whom I was truly divorced.
But the clerk could not find the divorce paper, perhaps because it was not what COO needed to certify for the society. They needed to see that I had “divorced” 👽, but we did not even marry in the reality.
This is just my reading.
[3. It’s question: with flaws like those, did/do you (need to) regret breaking the tradition — sending out good wishes (not just in ritual)?”
In my view – most likely 3. Not 1.]
This dream makes my non-expectation monologue/greetings had a side goal now — judging whether 👽’s characters deserve my good wishes.
My question to you: If a recipient is not good enough, and also caused your LE pains but also simultaneously benefited you in the past, should you stop sending any good wishes to her? Should forgiveness have any say here?
Snow,
I‘m not asked but butt in and say, forgiveness doesn’t have necessarily to result in sending good wishes.
To put a bit of T(is it?) into it, what would you like in the future- to hold a thin band of contact to him (holiday and birthday greetings), or to let the whole thing be a thing of the past? If the first, would it benefit your psyche or not? Would it be a matter of sending it and feeling good and that’s it, or a matter of waiting for the blue tick and ramping up thoughts about him a bit?
Only you know!
And, as I said, forgiveness doesn’t have anything to do with contact, in my opinion.
Snow,
I think we have both turned into authentic 🦉 while the holidays permit(ted) it!
“If a recipient is not good enough, and also caused your LE pains but also simultaneously benefited you in the past, should you stop sending any good wishes to her? Should forgiveness have any say here?”
Gee that’s a difficult question. An instinctive challenge to you – did *he* actually benefit you, or did you benefit *yourself* (with the monologues), with him an (not self-selected but albeit willing) accomplice that you brought into that self-benefitting process?
I just don’t have a reliable comparator to your 👽 I’m afraid, so I don’t know how to answer. If we built a hybrid with parts of my xSOs and xLOs, perhaps we could create ‘not good enough’, ‘benefitted me’, and ’caused LE pains’ in the same body, not none of my exes embody it all individually.
My xSOs unfortunately caused me pain that I don’t want to forgive, but that was much more calculated than I think 👽 was with you. All my xLOs come with only happy memories. Any associated pain was inflicted by the lim-brain, not by the LOs (with full recognition that isn’t the same for everyone). But they were moments in time that have passed, and all NC now without any bitterness. I’d love to discuss them all more, but I’d be hijacking your question if I did.
It merely proves what a unique situation yours is. But no (in answer to a different question), I don’t think you were crazy about the monologues – how you broke that process down made a lot of sense. You undoubtedly did benefit a lot.
Does anyone else on LwL have an ex LO that meets all Snow’s criteria and could answer her question (top of this message) from experience?
I think Mila just made a good point in response too.
Snow,
Now I think I didn’t really answer the question!
Here is sort of a thought process I consider about forgiveness.
‘Do I think the person made the best decision or action they thought they could, based on all the information they had at the time?’ (Even if it turned out ‘wrong’, or ‘wrong for me’). If yes, I should forgive it.
If no, the next questions are:
-‘so why do I think they took that decision/action?
-‘what other explanations are there?’.
If it seems it was a bad faith decision based on the information they had, it is harder to forgive, but often not impossible.
The next questions then might be:
-‘who gains what – me and the other person – if I forgive it?’,
-‘how does that compare to what happens if I don’t forgive it?’,
-‘what do I leave myself or others vulnerable to if I forgive it?’.
Everyone has flaws and makes mistakes – I know I have made some bad faith decisions and have weaker character traits that have needed forgiveness from others.
If forgiving is an internal process, not showy, do you mean ‘*purely* internal so I can rest from it and move on?’. Or that you would tell the other person? I guess sometimes there is benefit in the other person knowing – to ourselves too. If we’re forgiving purely for ourselves, I oftentimes find it better to look at what I contributed to the situation and see what of that I can forgive, more than it being about what the other person did that I can ‘forgive for myself’.
If you forgive someone and tell them so, I believe that needs to be ‘it’ – no further grudge about that thing.
Oh, LaR!
You really need to read or watch “War and Peace” and Dostoevsky before I can go on discussing with you on many more topics.
If forgiving is an internal process, not showy, do you mean ‘*purely* internal so I can rest from it and move on?’.
Yes. You tell the other side only when they ask for it or you deem they really need it for self-redemption. Otherwise, no need to show bystanders.
Truly forgiving makes one Nobel! It never leave the giver vulnerable but making him/her stronger, if one truly understands what is needed to be forgiven and why.
Why would you say watching it is such an important thing for me continuing to converse with you? (I will watch it, don’t fret – just interested!)
Tolstoy touched almost all socializing subjects covered in LwL through his characters — love, hate, date, marriage, loyalty, camaraderie, courage, justice, pride, lust, betrayal, jealousy, tolerance, god/religion, moderation, humbleness, naivety, selfishness, care for others, emptiness/fulfillment, redemption, forgiveness, contentment, war, peace…
It’s a visual feast vividly portrays the colorful humanities. It has pouring effect on me and always set a new sense of Agape and peace inside me, every time I watched it.
We, with Mila, could all use Tolstoy’s characters as a reference for discussions on relevant topics, instead of our respective LOs/MFFs, who remain largely unknown here and hard to understand for any reader.
LaR,
“Here is sort of a thought process I consider about forgiveness.”
I think your thought process derives from your T/J mindset and served as a root cause of your anxieties and sufferings… It will be extremely hard, if not impossible, to cultivate more P in one with such a thought process about forgiveness.
When you feel ready to hear my own perception/reasoning, let me know. It is not a cup of giggle tea, but “bitter” infused with Stoic flavor…
I’m learning by pompously preaching to others….
Snow, about the J vs P bit of Myers Briggs:
I regard J as wanting a plan and control, P as living spontaneously in the moment with less care for plans.
If someone says “right now, I feel like doing this, want to join me?”, a strong J will say they need to check the calendar and most probably find some reason to say no. A strong P, if they like the idea, will just say yes. The opposite side of this is that trying to make advanced plans with a P can be a nightmare.
Not the most academic source, but here is a nice accessible summary of the P trait:
https://www.wikihow.com/Prospecting-Personality
Why do I find MFF’s P attractive? I have strong J parents, a strong J SO, and I myself tilt towards J but more weakly. I blame myself more than anyone else, but my life has been so controlled by the calendar for years. MFF offers something different – a way to release my inner P and just do things I feel like doing at that moment, with less care for the plan. The glimmer stage with her happened at a point when that was *really* needed by me. I could easily ramble more but does that answer it?
LaR,
I just read the attached link above, thank you. Gosh, I’m so P even without some of its shortcoming… But I’m not so “laid back” due to my overly-sensitive sensory system (not calm enough to drive car).
Both my parents are strong, strong J type, xSO is J due to his Asperger, they drove me up to the roof; Narc Mom still does!
I used to be very strong in J trained by COO; but inside me P was never killed, just hibernated.
Nowadays? If a cause is justified and enticing enough under physical safety, I could literally be anywhere in the world in next 24 hours just for a cup of giggle tea! 🍵
“Nowadays? If a cause is justified and enticing enough under physical safety, I could literally be anywhere in the world in next 24 hours just for a cup of giggle tea! 🍵”
I love this. Really – how can anyone fail to love this level of P, especially if ruled by J for so long?? You were, I was – look at how we reacted 🕊
I think I have given you almost all I can give (identity revealing stuff aside) in the last week (more than the combination of everything I gave before) to understand how my MFF became my LO. Does it sort of make more sense to you now?
LaR,
Now I understand not only why you’re attracted to your MFF, but also why I became more attractive to 👽 (after knowing more about my inside via the monologues — more than any of you here), who is stronger in J, and his “henpecking” SO is even more stronger in J, based on him… I was innately a rule-bender/breaker (since the nursery time)
The question is: how knowing a root of your LE could help you decrease its intensity or even reduce its presence❓ Can your T better balance F more now? If you can independently develop more P in yourself, do you think you’d still crave such a trait in another?
You commented not a long ago that I seem to be in very jolly moods nowadays, that’s because I no longer desire or expect intangibles from others including 👽. I have been taking my mental states in my own hands, watching, shaping, and nurturing them by thinking and doing outside the box…
People mostly desire what they don’t have or what they think they don’t have. Sometimes, if one digs deeper within, they can find some invaluable stuff buried in there. They can also begin to cultivate missing traits internally what they desire and love. These goals cannot be achieved by even a walking god/goddess LO, but only ONESELF.
Snow,
Like you, I am still on very irregular 🦉 and 😴 hours – which is a good thing for me (it is P trait nurturing) to do for a while.
“I was innately a rule-bender/breaker”
If you channel that trait right, it will be attractive to many, many men. I wish there were more men here who’d be willing to confirm that! Of course, that can work for good and for bad.
“The question is: how knowing a root of your LE could help you decrease its intensity or even reduce its presence❓”
What a great question that I have spent such a long time pondering … maybe I am getting there 👇
“Can your T better balance F more now? If you can independently develop more P in yourself, do you think you’d still crave such a trait in another?”
Not sure what you mean in this context about T/F (please clarify). But – P/J balance in myself is already now better and more even. Also, yesterday – minus the MBTI jargon – I tried really hard to explain all this to SO (not for the first time) – how I now know I want to be more P and how I would like her to get more comfortable with that fact for both our sakes (the conversation had context). Whether she can, only time will tell. If she could, it would 💯 definitely reduce my LE for MFF.
Obviously, I can’t tell her that last part properly. But because I swore to myself about a year ago not to to lie to her when I spend time with MFF, she does totally know about MFF’s P side and its role in growing my own – in that conversation we even talked about MFF at some length. (not in a disclosure sort of way). Summary of situation: I have already changed J towards P in me and that can’t and shouldn’t be undone; it is unfair of me to ask SO to be less J herself, as that is fundamentally asking her to change, not of her own will; but it is not unfair to ask her if *we* can change together a bit towards P when it comes to our joint activity and decisions.
I credit LwL, and to a big extent talking to you personally, for getting me to these realisations and to getting the ⚽️⚽️ to explain them to SO, for my and our sake. I don’t yet know how the outcome of that conversation will shape up, but I had it in the spirit of trying to help her understand changes in me, and trying to make positive changes together.
“You commented not a long ago that I seem to be in very jolly moods nowadays, that’s because I no longer desire or expect intangibles from others including 👽. I have been taking my mental states in my own hands, watching, shaping, and nurturing them by thinking and doing outside the box…”
That’s what I 👻 hoped you’d do from a while ago, and where I believe the solution lies to you moving on from 👽 without feeling any need to ‘kill’ 🐦🔥. It will take time but right there is your solution in your own words. Cut, paste, save those words for yourself!
“People mostly desire what they don’t have or what they think they don’t have. Sometimes, if one digs deeper within, they can find some invaluable stuff buried in there. They can also begin to cultivate missing traits internally what they desire and love. These goals cannot be achieved by even a walking god/goddess LO, but only ONESELF.”
I’m on that road, and so are you. In this way, both of our LOs deserve credit for their role in the thing, but are not themselves ‘the thing’ – rather they have helped awaken ‘the thing’ in us. In my case something that very much needed awakening.
“When you feel ready to hear my own perception/reasoning, let me know. It is not a cup of giggle tea, but “bitter” infused with Stoic flavor…”
I will definitely hear it, and I will let you know when is good (thanks for asking me). Ideally, please give me another 2 weeks, if I need to have my Stoic 🦾 back on to 👂properly and 🤺 . I should also be able to watch War and Peace by then.
I would like to add some explanations to my previous ‘forgiveness’ message first, too, as I hurried it out as a stream of thought more than deeply applying my T to it.
Right, I’m off to hopefully a second batch of 💤💤
LaR,
“Like you, I am still on very irregular 🦉 and 😴 hours – which is a good thing for me (it is P trait nurturing) to do for a while.”
I did it all year around for the past 8 years, even if my class needed to begin at 9am sharp.
“If you channel that trait right, it will be attractive to many, many men. I wish there were more men here who’d be willing to confirm that! Of course, that can work for good and for bad.
I naturally, ignorantly did it since little, so got me in some troubles, not enough though due to Mom and COO who had its way to install fear in anyone! Then the trait was buried deep down even the West seemed to be more tolerant of it. I did not know or believe that anyone would like it, so policed it most of the time. But when that bloody Glimmer hit, my inner “police” was just “drugged” to tiptoes, not totally in slumber, though.
[“Can your T better balance F more now? If you can independently develop more P in yourself, do you think you’d still crave such a trait in another?”
“Not sure what you mean in this context about T/F (please clarify). “]
I meant to use T to direct P more, knowingly let P flourish. Imagine you have limited time to live, one month, one week, or one day more, would you J care so much before doing a P thing? ( I had my lymphoma scare for a while in 2020… 😨 but still did not express my feelings to 👽, because I had no idea what it was — illegitimate or immoral according to COO or someone’s Bible)
“how I now know I want to be more P and how I would like her to get more comfortable with that fact for both our sakes (the conversation had context)…. but it is not unfair to ask her if *we* can change together a bit towards P when it comes to our joint activity and decisions.”
It’s fair and wise to ask one’s partner to change, grow together! Please watch these video clips, which I totally agree, with deep affections, a couple could and should be the best teacher to each other. If this VIEW is not shared, two partners would gradually grow apart (shown in many cases here), the loving-tie soon or later would be weakened or worn out, one set of eyes or two would wander (sub)consciously elsewhere.
https://youtu.be/pICXY_6p45o?si=J6xS08d30LpXRM0u — Why Love Involves Teaching (the Aristotle way)
https://youtu.be/UOn9HVQdOGc?si=GW-VDE3tetBZ_rUl — the Three Requirements of a Good Relationship
“I credit LwL, and to a big extent talking to you personally, for getting me to these realisations and to getting the ⚽️⚽️ to explain them to SO, for my and our sake. “
I think you have done a great thing, for the sake of your relationship, not just yourself or herself alone. Such honest conversations need to take place more between loving couples.
“I don’t yet know how the outcome of that conversation will shape up, but I had it in the spirit of trying to help her understand changes in me, and trying to make positive changes together.”
A Stoic way: you do what you deem is virtuous/right and leave possible results to Zeus’ hand. This is the least amount of courage and wits one should have for the quality of his own life and the shared life with the partner. That’s called to take a charge in one’s own mental states. If the other side does the same, then the two would have more smooth sailing in the future; if not, the relationship may stuck or sink (when a storm arrives) because you two don’t row in the same direction.
“In this way, both of our LOs deserve credit for their role in the thing, but are not themselves ‘the thing’ – rather they have helped awaken ‘the thing’ in us.”
Yes, their existence and the incidental cross in our path is our blessing; I know I need to be premaritally grateful to such a Fate, despite LO is flawed and caused the pains 😒 My 🐦🔥 will always keep that window open… The realistic Life is too limited in in time and space, so I’m building a Tardis in 🐦🔥….
I had so many busy, sad, depressive dreams last night one after another (got enough sleep, though), one of which —
I was back to the old work again. While getting close to 👽’s office, he rushed into it, in goatee-beard, which just 😱 me to no end… Then, I paused to wait him (saw me) to come out to say a “hi”, but a pretty young woman dashed out and away… 🙄
You see what my beast Unconscious kept doing to me ⁉️
The Ancient Greek view — Why Love and Teaching Belong Together: (more thorough than the previous posted clip)
https://youtu.be/WPXbaJC2hLo?si=p67UEo7b31iTnZJm
Snow,
Thanks for your positivity about me having the conversation with SO. Maybe *this* is the benefit of the temporary NC with MFF – that I can finally turn inwards a bit.
She currently feels a bit attacked that I seem to be rejecting the J way of life that we have had for so long. I am not trying to reject it, but rather change my part in it a bit (and make it known what and why, not ‘act it out’ as I may have been through/with MFF) and change a bit of the ‘we’ side.
SO tends to see things initially in black and white instead of shades of grey, and react with her S and F (I showed more of my F than normal in the conversation). For her to understand what I said, needs some T to be applied. So it may take time and gentle help and reinforcement. But here I really have to put myself first, because in the end that puts her first too if I can get to a more balanced J/P way where I am more content.
“You see what my beast Unconscious kept doing to me ⁉️”
My observation about this dream sequence is that your biggest unresolved issue in your head re 👽 is his pet LO and how he tried to cover her up / lie to you. This is true even though you knew you wouldn’t enter into a PA with him. Re ‘forgiveness’ conversation from yesterday – why do you think he lied? What do you think went through his mind? Was it a good-faith decision based on the evidence he had at the time, or not?
LaR,
It would help if you can get your SO watch the two relevant tapes or get the similar ideas elsewhere. I know how stubborn J mind could be, because it’s not all culturally conditioned. It might involve some DNA predisposition. I’ve given up on Mom’s J, only trying to not let it flare up my impatience and anger. 99.999999% COO folks are in J mindset, due to the system’s brainwash.
“This is true even though you knew you wouldn’t enter into a PA with him.”
It might be the other way around — the discovery of this trait of his prevented it. Based on Tunnov, an authentic Lim-mind wants an exclusive reciprocation, not one of LO’s sideline flings. 😒
“Re ‘forgiveness’ conversation from yesterday – why do you think he lied?”
1. Keep the “shinny” mortality mask, especially for me. (He “lied” more during our farewell meeting — I controlled not rolling my eyes, so I am sure he wanted to keep that mask to me).
2. Not to hurt my feelings. He knew more than myself what was going on in my system, although none of us knew the concept of LE back then. I believe he went through “IT” briefly as well (you guys could not hide the biological symptoms 😉 ).
“ What do you think went through his mind? Was it a good-faith decision based on the evidence he had at the time, or not?”
That’s what I wanted to say about your “forgiveness” post — too much J in it…. It’s UNWISE, a waste of time and energy to contemplate possible causes of others actions, and their mind! It’s PERPETUALLY beyond one’s control! More than often, we cannot even figure out the causes of our OWN stresses, actions, and reactive mistakes… so focus our mind on our own path, and leave others to their own “journey”!
Good faith or not (regardless the pain sources), the pain is still the same. One needs to attend and focus on healing it with one’s own hand/mind. That’s what physical or philosophical meditation contemplation, or reflection is for, regardless causes of external stresses. Focus on internal causes of one’s pains and then decrease and remove them.
Now, even after the called for forgiveness, the pain is still in the Unconscious, what could I do⁉️ Can kill my DNA⁉️ So only LE needs to be 🔪.
I’ll give you one tiny spoiler of “War and Peace” —
One main character who first refused to forgive finally said, “they could not help it….”
It applies to my case…
Clarification question: proper reply later –
“That’s what I wanted to say about your “forgiveness” post — too much J in it…”
Do you mean too much J or too much T? J is confusing because it stands for Judging – but really it is all about *Planning* (opposite of spontaneous P for Prospecting).
It is possible to be T and P together, eg MFF is.
I thought J also includes “controlling”.
Contemplating about others’ motivations of their actions/reactions/mistakes is, by Stoic view, a form of controlling, futile in any stages, because they may not even know what and why they did what they did, just like ourselves in some dynamics.
Based on your definition, I guess it’s the way too much of one T aspect — useless head guessing “games”, trying to put someone else’s life-puzzle together at one time. Doesn’t it sound silly to you?
It will be blessing if we figure out the puzzle of our unwillingness to forgive, which would bring us internal peace.
My T and P say that ANY SITUATION, regardless natures of its origins, can be forgiven! It’s for our own healthy mind, nothing else.
My conscious mind has forgiven, but the Unconscious is connected to our DNAs, and tries to balance my strong conscious wills.
Unforgiveness is like drinking poison yourself and waiting for the other person to die.
—Marianne Williamson.
LaR,
„Whether she can, only time will tell. If she could, it would 💯 definitely reduce my LE for MFF.“
You sure? You mean, the whole reason for your LE is your SO, like „if she would be different, I wouldn’t be limerent, it’s all her fault and in her hands?“
(I‘m completely exaggerating to show what I mean, sorry).
I don’t think that can be right.
Of course I know you mean that P (you mean spontaneity etc) is missing from your life, and because it’s part of who you are/want to be, you feel attracted to your LO. You explained it and of course I get it.
But to boil that suddenly down to „SO has to change so that I can stop being limerent“, that sounds a bit unfair and too easy to me.
Sorry, I’m being in a somber mood today. I don’t mean it as accusing as it sounds, I‘m just a bit too tired to mince my words more. I absolutely get what you are saying, but this phrase stuck out for me in an uneasy way.
Mila,
I can’t expect that anyone will read all my long ramblings with Snow. But I feel that you got a false impression and quoted some bits but not other bits that show the bigger picture and context. So I want to try to change the record here on a couple of things:
You said:
“You sure? You mean, the whole reason for your LE is your SO, like „if she would be different, I wouldn’t be limerent, it’s all her fault and in her hands?“ ”
No, I have not said or implied that. Not all of it is in this chain of messages, but at various times Snow has prompted me to delve into why my LE started. I have before now identified how a whole range of factors contributed to removing a lot of spontaneity from my life over years, and how that was a likely LE trigger for that glimmer at that time for that person. Of these, I have admitted – elsewhere in previous blogs and here (“I blame myself more than anyone else … “) that many of these reasons are self inflicted, some family-inflicted, and some connected to a rockier patch that SO and I were having at the time. I have not ever tried to blame her. Even the last item of that list (and Snow will vouch) I have always painted as a 50-50 thing, not one I lay all blame with SO for.
I said in the same message you quoted from (starred bit for emphasis is important):
“Summary of situation: I have already changed J towards P in me and that can’t and shouldn’t be undone; **it is unfair of me to ask SO to be less J herself, as that is fundamentally asking her to change, not of her own will**; but it is not unfair to ask her if *we* can change together a bit towards P when it comes to our joint activity and decisions.”
So I am saying there that I know it is unfair and wrong to expect SO to change (starred point). I am also saying that I recognised a need to change that part within myself (first point) to live more happily, and that I asked her if we can work towards more spontaneity in things together (third point – and please notice the ‘a bit’, not ‘completely’).
The problem is, as I said to Snow, for as long as I didn’t explain all this to SO, I was guilty of acting it out, including through the LE/LO. This stuff was said in the spirit of giving SO more transparency and explanation about bits of my behaviour, what I can work on and what we can work on together to move forward. There is a lot of background and context to all this (some of the other issues I / we had going on) – I can’t go into it here but SO understands and empathises about its effects.
“But to boil that suddenly down to „SO has to change so that I can stop being limerent“, that sounds a bit unfair and too easy to me.”
I honestly don’t believe I have ever said that (here or in real life), and I don’t believe that in myself either.
“Whether she can, only time will tell. If she could, it would 💯 definitely reduce my LE for MFF.“
That was my most clumsily worded bit that may have taken you down those other lines of thought. If you go back to the context of that part, the ‘can’ in the above relates to: “how I now know I want to be more P [=spontaneous] and how I would like her to become more comfortable with that fact”. It is about a change in me, and whether she can become OK with it, not asking for a change in her. I am hoping by explaining that change in me and not continuing ‘acting out’, I will actually be doing a good thing for our relationship. Ultimately I know it isn’t right or sustainable to seek my LO to get a need for spontaneity met. What I was trying to do through this conversation was to explore how me and SO could create some space for more spontaneity between us.
I didn’t say it here, but in the same conversation I also discussed with her how I could tame some of my recent need for ‘P’ to fit better with her ‘J’ – how to make it work between us. I’d probably prefer to retract “it would definitely reduce my LE for MFF”, as I don’t know that to definitely be true and it is too strong a statement where I can see it can imply cause and effect where there is none.
Again, I’m sorry back if my tone back seems defensive, but I do feel defensive about this issue. Like with the feminism stuff though, I would much rather you ask me and give me a chance to clarify than not.
LAR,
First of all, the feminism bit was not at all an issue for me, really. I know I can come over a bit too blunt sometimes, but it was only a remark with no offense taken by your first statement at all.
Second, I apologize, I just tend to read too fast and skip too much, and react too quickly.
This phrase just stuck out, as you yourself say „ as I don’t know that to definitely be true and it is too strong a statement where I can see it can imply cause and effect where there is none“.
And I seem to have missed important other phrases.
Thanks for elaborating, I made the mistake to pick a phrase without the whole context. I think what irked me was probably the „100“, it sounded like your SO changing was the sole factor in your limerence.
Since I admit that I skim your and Snows a bit also because I get confused by the letters, I had no right to comment like that.
Sorry!
Snow,
I guess J could also include ‘controlling’ but not always in a bad way – just as a part of the trait.
I do see now how you applied that idea to my ‘forgiveness’ question list, so thank you.
I also accept your argument that it is futile to keep T-delving into what others’ thought processes might be, and how forgiveness is ultimately more about inner peace than about the other person (though sometimes I think there is benefit in the other person knowing they’ve been forgiven). Consider me convinced of these points ✅️ My list of questions won’t be for everyone.
I have a question / pondering about this one point of yours:
“It never leave the giver vulnerable but making him/her stronger”
If the other person (‘forgivee’) has done something terrible, and if they are subsequently forgiven, there might be nothing to stop them repeating the terrible act – including in the direction of the forgiver. Hasn’t the forgiver left themselves vulnerable in that scenario?
Mila,
Thanks and don’t worry. Yeah, happy to admit I worded that bit wrongly and ambiguously. It’s our old friend that “words lose 90% of meaning” again. I’m also sorry about mine and Snow’s shorthand (we will try to find other less exclusionary ways) – I tried to mostly avoid the letters in my clarification to you!
Just wanted to share for those who aren’t already aware there is a private forum for those who want to have in-depth 121 discussions (and don’t want others to engage / comment etc)
This is the link :-
https://limerenceforums.com/
I’m not on it myself but thought it maybe useful to share.
LaR,
One thing I want to clarify: whatever I argue, discuss, or debate about, it’s seldom from morality perspectives, but psychological aspects.
“I guess J could also include ‘controlling’ but not always in a bad way – just as a part of the trait.”
Controlling is positive ONLY when it applies to one’s own actions or reactions, states of mind, etc. Using it to others or situations is just unwise and futile, wasting one’s time and energy❗️
“I do see now how you applied that idea to my ‘forgiveness’ question list, so thank you.”
I wanted to wait for 2 weeks as you requested, but you “pushed me to the corner” in my situation. For the argument sake, there was no way I could wait for another 2 weeks, so 🤺
“(though sometimes I think there is benefit in the other person knowing they’ve been forgiven). “
Sorry to say this: this sounds morally superior (or arrogant) to the other side. Let her or him think and decide for themselves (do not “control” even in your own mind) whether it’s beneficial to know your forgiveness. Why would they think your forgiveness is so important or beneficial, if they did not even believe/think they did wrong in the first place?
We can’t “control” what/how others think about our “benevolent” forgiveness. Again, it’s our intern state of mind, irreverent to the forgivee’s needs or wants. Just like treating our ideas and opinions, don’t give to anyone else unless they ask for some or during a constructive discussion of debate.
“If the other person (‘forgivee’) has done something terrible, and if they are subsequently forgiven, there might be nothing to stop them repeating the terrible act – including in the direction of the forgiver. Hasn’t the forgiver left themselves vulnerable in that scenario?“
So you think YOUR unforgiveness (not fearing God’s punishment) would stop them repeating the terrible act? It also sounds a bit of J, controlling mind as if your mental state could influence or stop another’s behavior… 😉
And this brings to Mila and my shared point — a genuine forgiveness does NOT mean you will need to deal with the offender now or in the future! You can firmly say to them, if they approach you again, something like, “I’ve forgiven you for xxx, but I do not want to deal with you from now one. Good luck!”
No need to show bystanders your “glorious” forgiveness, either, (unless close friends ask), that’s egotistic! (“see, how noble and open-hearted I am”…). Just cultivate it internally for the peace of your own conscious mind. The Unconscious is out of our active control, but maybe gradually, passively influenced by the conscious actions or thinking.
Debating with you or others helps my conscious mind and mood, too. I try to keep reminding myself that My Unconscious is a beast, listening to me 24/7; need to feed him and attend ITS needs.
Imho in🥻 ,
I’m living/writing/rambling my reality (—a reality show) to the entire world (even 👽 might drop in and out), so anyone is welcome to cut into my ramblings, question, and even 🐦🔥 🔫
I tried to use “others” “she or he”, so as to not exclude invisible readers, which helps me not to generalize. I tend to pompously think that some of my points might be applicable enough to some others. Well, my profession pushes me to use every opportunity to preach, a kind of obnoxious, huh 😊
If my memory is correct, you’re also a INFP, like Marcia and myself….
@imho
Like Snow, I always reallh welcome interjections to my points. Different opinions are how I learn. I will sometimes agree and thank people, or sometimes fight my corner if I feel someone has misunderstood. I think / hope that Mila understood that of me when she commented, and it seemed we worked through it with decorum.
Nothing I write to anyone here is ever meant to be ‘closed shop’. The learning point for me is to try and make my language more accessible to all and sometimes also to take my time and think more before hitting send (the tendency for my phone to delete unfinished text sometimes doesn’t help that).
Thanks for the link to the private forum. I had a look over there once. People do seem a bit more open in what they say. But I am not sure it has the facility to talk 1-1 to any individual. Everything seems to still be out there for all of the site’s members to see. Maybe someone else can confirm that.
@Snow,
I’m wondering if this is one about more than just how I individually think – whether we are working (like previously when discussing ‘friendship’) with different Western and Eastern constructs of ‘forgiveness’? Almost like it needs two different words for two different ideas. The Eastern construct being that forgiveness is an internal act, the Western one being that it is both an internal and external act? Maybe some languages have two words for it?
Points well taken that 1. no ‘showy’ version of forgiveness is good, 2. you are right that we shouldn’t assume that what we think matters at all to the other person.
LaR,
I don’t see there is any fundamental difference between the East and West, which contains two parts — the dominant internal parts that both Stoic and Buddhism advocate. The external part depends on whether forgivee wants/needs it for whatever reasons, forgiver should not decide for them.
In reality, perhaps due to Christianity, external forgiveness is performed/acted out much more in scope and degree. Generational feud between families and individuals, like Romeo and Juliette’ family, was one of COO national traits depreciated in the old, stereotype movies.
Again, forgiving does not mean to keep putting up with such a WRONG act ( — debatable while not a legal crime) in the future, we need to firmly steer away from the offender and possible offender of the similar wrong act. We condemn the ACT, Understand that, as human being, everyone makes and has made mistakes, intentionally or unavoidably. Thus we ultimately forgive them in attitude, so the “poisonous” attitude does not erode in us.
Back one step, if we externally act forgiveness when it is not called for, how does that influence or affect the offender’s life? If we assume our forgiveness could “magically” better them or their life, we are IGNORANTLY arrogant/pompous (in morality) and J controlling! (Now you understand why I detest pompous moralists? ) ultimately ONE can “save” and improve ONLY oneself — one’s God lives within!
From my observations, there is much more collective and individual J controlling tendency or even habit in the west, because people don’t clearly recognize such psychological traits and their common corresponding behaviors/mentality. Yet, it is living in the West that has helped me sharply reduce my previous J trait (still some here or there) thus P could emerge from within to breathe. Who says people can’t change?
With such a much freer yet regulated system, there are so many invisible “rules” are added to individual lives/mentality, COO folks often comment, “it’s so silly! They’re so serious about everything and do not know how to relax, how to appreciate and enjoy what they already have, much more with all sorts of rights and privileges… It’s tiring even just to watch their lifestyles….” I’m just passing what I heard from others’ random chats, especially during our relaxed reunion back in June.
LaR,
Forgiveness involves judgment. Let’s look at some scenarios in theory:
1. The offender is wrong and defender is right; but offender thinks s/he’s right (or wrong with “legitimate”, excusable reason), and thus would not apologize nor ask for forgiveness, what the defender should do to achieve desired mental peace?
2. The offender knows it’s wrong but still did it to purposefully hurt the defender (for a revenge), what the defender should do?
3. The offender is right, but defender is wrong. The offender wants a forgiveness from the defender, what the defender should do?
*****
I think your xSO and my Mom fell into the first scenario. It seems that haven’t forgiven her (correct me if I am wrong), while my Dad forgave Mom again and again, (3 or 4 times?) while he was neither a Buddhist nor a saint, nor a Stoic (very charming and attractive, heard and saw other women openly flirting with him). I did not understand why and how in the past, but now I could imagine or deduce how he did it. (neither Dad nor Mom knew/knows what I know about the green hat….)
Snow,
Please hang in there for more full replies eventually on this topic!
My internal battery is now very much on needed recharge mode, and I am deliberately letting that be for a while (for example have stopped caffeine for a bit, which I’m usually pretty hooked on). Now the holiday pressures are gone, I am finding I am much more comfortably ‘into’ the temporary NC cleanse period. So I am cleansing and rejuvenating in other ways too. All good – stuff from the positives list like walks, cooking and boxset binges. Hope it is similar for you. But all that does mean I can’t quite fire up my brain to 🤺 like sometimes – and definitely not to talk for now about my exes in too much depth.
If your sense of internal forgiveness is as you said it here: “thus we ultimately forgive them in attitude, so the “poisonous” attitude does not erode in us”, then maybe I have already done this with my exes (keep in mind, 20 years since one and more than 10 for the other). They don’t haunt my days or my dreams – I can go months at a time without them crossing my mind. Permanent NC with both of them is both welcome and inevitable. Negative energy from them doesn’t curdle inside me. I have forgiven myself any errors on my part with both.
“I did not understand why and how in the past, but now I could imagine or deduce how he did it.”
If you can and want to say anything about how you think he forgave, and feel it would be beneficial to, please do. It’s an interesting ‘thinker’ for sure.
“Forgiveness involves judgement”
This and your 1, 2, 3 list under it, while I find it helpful, at first glance seem to contradict your earlier statement about my list of forgiveness questions – you said that contained too much J (judgement) for your liking. I think J is useful here, so I am not disputing your list – just querying the apparent contradiction.
LaR,
I finally got some quality sleep in the past couple of days (over 90% points). But my cold is still here, the nose is congested (no headache!), and freshly, slice giggle tea is still brewing — the only effective, yet slow remedy. I used the cold as an excuse not to workout much.
I’m very glad to hear that you’ve firmly put the past in the past and they have almost totally disappeared in your head. This result is ideal.
“If you can and want to say anything about how you think he forgave, and feel it would be beneficial to, please do. It’s an interesting ‘thinker’ for sure.”
I think my mind nowadays is close in sync with Dad in terms of ultimately forgiving “evil” deeds. However looking back in theory, I would have walked away from a wanton SO like Mom, (might be one of reasons that she was such a terrible, Narc Mom) who is, I can easily imagine and believe, much worse than a common-looking, less successful, physically healthier, and kinder stepmother!
Well, Dad could and did forgive her as SO, and I her as a horrible parent (can’t change the historical fact) as a result of the largely healed cptsd. But that doesn’t mean I’ll treat her as a respectable parent or a friend. I will take my last “even” act later, which I think would keep my spirit in eternal peace…. No telling now!
“This and your 1, 2, 3 list under it, while I find it helpful, at first glance seem to contradict your earlier statement about my list of forgiveness questions – you said that contained too much J (judgement) for your liking. “
I still don’t like it and don’t follow it! I was just rephrasing , (bearing your list in mind) what J mind would encounter while dealing with forgiveness. #1 on the list is what most people encounter, which could lead to endless disagreement, frustration and hurt, since a measuring stick of “right” and “wrong” is never the same, (possibly similar ) between two parties, and it changes as our mind all change or expand under other influences.
I think you’re doing just what you need to do — winding down from the holiday stress, letting mind relax and “stay comfortable with NC cleansing “. My intense strife of “to send or not to send” finally eased as time slowly passes. To swing between Don Quixote and Hamlet — the enteral pendulum of “to be/do or not to be/do” is painful and exhausting, yet so inescapable in me….
This morning, I could feel that 😈 depression began subtly creeping back…. So I expanded a bit of my small mind, exploring more of Western personal histories — I’m too ignorant to even know that unbelievable, multi-talented Casanova was a real person, not just a literary legend! How was the “Greatest Lover” in the history capable of entering a university at age of 12 and then mastering the amount of artistic, scholarly, and creative skills that would take a dozen people to achieve ⁉️ IT just boggles my small mind and limited imagination‼️ 😳
Snow,
Yeah this is why I wondered if we do have two different constructs. I’ve technically forgiven them in the sense of forgiveness you meant. But I would word it as “I have made peace with myself about it” more than “I have forgiven it”. ‘Forgiven’, in my culture’s way, is more about letting the other person know. I have never let either ex know that I have ‘externally’ forgiven them (would have if I had wanted to and really felt it / I could do it with the non-narc one at a push) – I just eventually went NC and was done with it.
It took a lot of work including in therapy to make peace with myself. That’s why I was wondering what you think were the more technical steps your father took, to ‘forgive’. What did he have to do in practice to reach that point? Maybe you don’t know, and it’s not a problem if you don’t, or would rather not discuss.
Maybe the western construct of forgiveness does have deep roots in Christianity, but I’d need someone who is a more active and learned Christian to confirm that.
(Side note on that – my family are Christians, quite deeply so going back a couple of generations. I grew up that way. I am no longer active in a sense of going to church or reading the Bible, but I like to think I have taken bits of it all forward in the attitude I have to life and my ways of being).
Casanova’s story really is quite something, isn’t it? A really good case study for debate of the merits of morality vs doing what feels right by the self at the time?!
LaR,
“Yeah this is why I wondered if we do have two different constructs.”
Maybe only different in forms.
“I’ve technically forgiven them in the sense of forgiveness you meant. But I would word it as “I have made peace with myself about it” more than “I have forgiven it”. “
To me, it sounds like you’ve just found peace to live with the splinter, but did not really take it out of you.
“‘Forgiven’, in my culture’s way, is more about letting the other person know. “
From psychological point, it’s an internal process, I learned this from the West. A true story some times ago —
A thief broken into a dark house (in Chicago), and realized the owner, old lady (82 or 92) was still awake. So he raped and killed her. Afterwards, her son told interviewer that he’d forgiven the thief before he was given 7-year prison sentence. He said that he understood the thief’s motivation—the fear to be caught, left with little choice, and he could not change the fact that his mom was already died. So he forgave him publicly. I was shocked when I heard the news.
“I have never let either ex know that I have ‘externally’ forgiven them (would have if I had wanted to and really felt it / I could do it with the non-narc one at a push) – “
Let me a bit “cruelly” point out here: they did/do not care about receiving a forgiveness from you, especially the Narc one. They are Machiavellians in relationship. Forgiving or not, finding internal peace or not, is your own business. I forgave LO6, whether he needed it or not, he had worse insecurity compared to many others; his Narc behavior was “normal” for a Narc.
“It took a lot of work including in therapy to make peace with myself. That’s why I was wondering what you think were the more technical steps your father took, to ‘forgive’. “
There was NO psychotherapy profession in COO back then (still few nowadays), maybe he talked with his friends? Much later after I left, I learned the family’s reputation was bad in the community and she was officially punished by her work, but they never relocated either — there was no free choice of relocation back then. One lived/endured one’s assigned lot by Big Brother, except one could denounce a misbehaved SO, divorce him/her and remarry. I think the Buddhistic tradition and his natural Stoic traits just helped him.
Moreover, he continued the marital tie and they were pretty close all the way to the end, in my eyes, as co-dependent, loving couple, which worked in COO, while codependency is so heavily “fussed” about in the West. That’s one of reasons for the comment, “they’re so serious about everything… Including in a loving relationship, where a lot of compromise is really called for, not rights for this or that….” Also, in the East, couples don’t demand or expect to get impossible amount of stuff from a relationship, like many modern westerners.
I quite agree the view in: https://youtu.be/AnEtus9XNws?si=kI5yfCi9aublTYQQ — the Problem With Modern Love. (Your Cambridge fellowman)
“Casanova’s story really is quite something, isn’t it? A really good case study for debate of the merits of morality vs doing what feels right by the self at the time?!”
Leave me out of morality debate. I’m just amazed that Casanova could exist and “flourish” under strong Catholicism/Christianity in Italy, France, and many European nations! and he’s so “brilliant” in so many skills, aside the art of seduction! — whose DNA drives could resist⁉️
Hi Snow,
Again, understood that neither of them probably cares about getting my forgiveness. And that’s OK with me – it is all long in my past, and I am reconciled with it.
“To me, it sounds like you’ve just found peace to live with the splinter, but did not really take it out of you.”
When I said a few days back that I hadn’t and didn’t want to forgive the two exes, I was working in an ‘external / public’ frame of reference for the construct ‘forgiveness’.
What have I said that makes you think I haven’t removed the splinter in an internal sense? Is it that you believe that if I’d removed it, I would want to externally forgive too (regardless of whether they care)? Or something else I said?
I believe I have completed the internal acts of forgiveness (‘making peace with it / them inside’). But I also believe I could do that without the wish to forgive externally. And I also believe that option will be open in a lot of cases.
LaR,
Perhaps it’s an issue of language and metaphor between our understandings:
“To live in peace with something” implies, to us, one gets used to and endures the pain without removing its root. “To forgive” is to internally understand and remove cause — the splinter. Perhaps in English, the two expressions mean the same?
You’re absolutely right that there is no need at all to publicly forgive these two xSOs.
LaR,
Just thought of something —
Monks/nuns: getting rid of the desire or live with it in peace, doing nothing.
Laymen Buddhistic: living in peace with the desire while pursuing doing no harms to others and oneself.
Stoic: staying in the middle of the desire and calm, doing virtuous deeds (of the time)
Stendhal and Camus: recognize the repetition/cycle of highs and downs of the passion, deciding what to do with it and finding meanings in your decision— writing novels or pushing Sisyphus stone.
Nietzsche: kindle and keep the desire alive and channel it through arts and creativities.
Mila,
“I‘m not asked but butt in and say, forgiveness doesn’t have necessarily to result in sending good wishes.”
I was going to say almost the exact statement at the end of last post, but to leave it as a question to LaR, to see his opinion. Forgiveness is one’s own internal process, not an external ‘showy’ action. One can forgive an enemy, but it doesn’t mean one needs to befriend him/her, unless one wants to.
“To put a bit of T(is it?) into it, what would you like in the future- to hold a thin band of contact to him (holiday and birthday greetings), or to let the whole thing be a thing of the past? “
In any kind of friendship/relationship, I’m almost 95% P; 5% for the logistic planning when called for. I don’t PLAN anything (but prepare for the worst most of the time) for the future. IMP, one should not; otherwise, one lives in constant anxiety, because other 50% remains unknown or changing. I decide to do anything at the moment when a decision needs to be made (sending a greeting card or not). Otherwise, my Unconscious would “strike” my decision.
“If the first, would it benefit your psyche or not? “
It absolutely DID, because of the list I posted it. But it can’t be said for sure for the future.
“Would it be a matter of sending it and feeling good and that’s it, or a matter of waiting for the blue tick and ramping up thoughts about him a bit?”
There is no new information of any sort about 👽 to “ramp up”, only fermented reflections on the past stuff. You might be right on that it ramps up thoughts about a “legendary” figure in the past. with a tiny “click/window” connecting to the present.
It’s “mysterious”, thus fascinating, as long as one doesn’t expect anything jumping out of the window….
Ok I give up with the letters, I don’t really know what T and P is🙈
No need to explain, I’m not really interested in the Meyer Briggs stuff (if that’s the name).
Sorry, what do you mean by anything jumping out if the window?
Mila,
I think T represents rational thinking, P living spontaneously, as LaR defines in his post below yours.
If the window is left unlocked, signals could always go out to or come in from the Galaxy…. Why? Zeus would not know!
Mila – Snow’s window thing is nothing to worry about.
Not quite:
– T = thinking vs F = feeling
– P = prospecting (spontaneity) vs J = judging (planning)
Also:
– N (intuition) vs S (sensing), and
– I (introversion) vs E (extraversion)
LaR,
“An instinctive challenge to you – did *he* actually benefit you, or did you benefit *yourself* (with the monologues), with him an (not self-selected but albeit willing) accomplice that you brought into that self-benefitting process?”
The excellent questions I often pondered. The ratio between the former and latter might be 10-90% at the beginning (with limited, responses) then perhaps 30-70%, because we very subtly and indirected chatted about some contents in person.
“perhaps we could create ‘not good enough’, ‘benefitted me’, and ’caused LE pains’ in the same body….”
My question now is: if not in LE, would I even experienced these LE pains — the three vices? If one is not my LO, he could perform x-rated act with a Princess right in front me, without me blinking eyes(numbly witnessed one once).
“My xSOs unfortunately caused me pain that I don’t want to forgive, but that was much more calculated than I think 👽 was with you. “
👽 did not know what I knew about his secrete, regular rendezvous and tried so hard to lie to me about it, (caused two major in person NCs on my side, which hurt him badly (saw in his eyes) — “I feel lost” was his reaction after I ended it the first one.) I think, for the sake of not hurting me, although I am not his SO. (Through LwL, I am fairly sure nowadays that there was EA reciprocation for the first 3-3.5 yrs)
“I don’t think you were crazy about the monologues – how you broke that process down made a lot of sense. You undoubtedly did benefit a lot.”
That was my (Eastern) T working: if I could not get what my subconscious desires, how could I turn it into some sorts of lessons or benefits — adversity is our best teacher, ALWAYS! My historical cptsd shouted loud to be taken care, so I focused working on that with 👽’s “passive” accomplice. The LE triggered and added a bit new to the existing cptsd, but it ultimately helped heal the old, bigger one, after I mentally gave up any attempt to get emotional/mental reciprocation.
No desires, no life; No actions, no self- actualization and purposeful living; No expectations, no pains!
Wow! L’Amoors is in full swing, all day long!
I wish it’s realistic somewhere and we could do the same! However, it’s as good as in our consciousness — that’s all what matters!
I’ve strayed off from my piano practices lately (due to the hanging trail), and really need to be more disciplined on it. I hate abandoning unfinished business of any kind… a tiny daily improvement would make me content.
Had a fabulous, totally LE free dream — 💭
It’s an abstract, avant-garde event. A French film maker (I dated, looked like Bowie) was directing it in Soho of our town. So many talented young performers from both the East and West sat around a steamy pool with dark flashing light hovering it. Everyone’s body was fully painted/covered with bright colored abstract patterns. [can’t tell weather we have clothes on]
And each of us was to show our talents in or around the pool. I was alone and slighted since I was from a poor background in the Eastern; others were from wealthy family.
But I did some gravity-defying performance — first in the pool water dancing like a reddish dragon/snake — I was half person, half dragon like with a costume tail). Then I leaped out the water and sustained in the air to continue the red dragon/snake dance — my secrete Eastern training, which amazed everyone around. I felt so light physically swirling in the air!!
Then, I did not want to hang around the fussy, snobbish crowd, so quietly sneaked out the pool area; I wanted to leave the gigantic studio. After walked down the greenery, lush stairs, the film maker caught me and began to ask about my skills. That’s when I saw he looked like the French documentary director, lean, tall, serious, few words. I felt flattered being approached by and chatted with… We did a bit walking at the foot of the stairs and then ❓
I can’t remember the rest and how I woke up; but it’s a serene waking up with the first concept: Phantom… then the passed trail and its consequence…
I think I had just conceptualized a vivid interior designing to one corner of our Amoor Inn!
Trifles,
(New thread so as not to hijack you and Mila’s chat)
“I know you’re kidding but don’t worry, equality and double standards are topics I stumble into regularly with no instigation needed.”
I’m all for it. Good men should be feminists! Adam did make an interesting point yesterday though, did you see that one? I decided not to expand as it is seriously shark-infested water for a guy to enter, but I have been on the end of similar issues to him (chivalry equated to being sexist, misogynist or old fashioned) and I’d love to know how that one is solved. How do we men hit the right ‘brand’ of feminism without demonising ourselves? Semi-rhetorical question – don’t answer if you don’t want to, and equally anyone else please answer if you do want to! (📣 Mila!)
“Flirting is expected in bars but not at the bus stop. So I can turn on the charm in a bar but be taken aback on the bus stop (happened to me once).”
Phew, for a minute there I thought I should have installed a shopping mall and bus route in LwL village rather than a bar! But you have got me confused now (not difficult). I thought earlier you said you were shy in bars (avoided gazes etc) but out there ‘flirting’ with shop assistants. Is this a recent change?
“Kudos for the supermarket success! 😀 (The girl was probably E and P 😉)”
Yep, and a sassy 👩🦰 to boot!
(I’m kidding – none of the above 😅😅)
LaR,
“I thought earlier you said you were shy in bars (avoided gazes etc)…”
You didn’t read carefully – at bars I avoid the gazes of YOUNG men like the plague. Probably the fear that we are speaking of with Mila – to be regarded as a cougar (if that term is even used anymore…).
It is a recent thing that I’ve come to try quick eye contact and friendly flirting at everyday places (“flirting without intent” like I think someone once said on here). Before that, flirting was strictly reserved for situations where I had already been approached.
Hmm… I saw that comment from Adam. And I don’t think there is a clear answer. I suppose it’s in HOW you display your chivalry. Where I live, I don’t see enough chivalry so you won’t catch me complaining about it. But I can understand that it can get to be a bit “too much” for some people. Especially if it feels like a big “show” (rushing around to pull out chairs, etc). But when you know the person and know that it is just their style (what Adam sounds like), I’m sure they can mostly get away with it. And just as long as you don’t keep on ‘pushing’ your chivalrous notion (paying the bill, carrying the umbrella, whatever) after someone has clearly asked you not to.
Like Mila, I wouldn’t confuse human rights, pay equality, etc (feminism) with chivalry and manners.
“Like Mila, I wouldn’t confuse human rights, pay equality, etc (feminism) with chivalry and manners.”
Thank you. I do agree with all you said there. I guess if we have that distinction clear, it really does debunk my ‘joke’. I guess the fact I made the ‘joke’ (even though I genuinely do stand for all those things that you say feminism should) was partly because I’ve encountered people who don’t always make the distinction as clearly. I think that’s where Adam was coming from too. I will recast things a bit in my mind as a result of these conversations – every day a schoolday!
I second Trifles her, especially in the „how“ and not to confuse it with basic rights.
Also, I like chivalry but don’t need it, so it’s up to the guy- the worst is if you realize someone is being chivalrous and expects something in return („I paid the bill, so get a bit closer now“, to be a bit crude)
But of course that’s not real chivalry.
The Amoor Gang:
See if you agree with Tolstoy’s view —
“…only Germans are self-confident on the basis of an abstract notion-science, that is, the supposed knowledge of absolute truth.
A Frenchman is self-assured because he regards himself personally, both in mind and body, as irresistibly attractive to men and women.
An Englishman is self-assured, as being a citizen of the best-organized state in the world, and therefore as an Englishman always knows what he should do and knows that all he does as ar Englishman is undoubtedly correct.
An Italian is self-assured because he is excitable and easily forgets himself and other people.
A Russian is self-assured just because he knows nothing and does not want to know anything, since he does not believe that anything can be known.
The German’s self-assurance is worst of all, stronger and more repulsive than any other, because he imagines that he knows the truth-science-which he himself has invented but which is for him the absolute truth.”
****
An American? Still running around buffalos back in early 19th century – 🐦🔥
“The reason for evil in the world is that people are not able to tell their stories.” —Carl Jung
“We must make mistakes. We must live out our own vision of life…If you avoid error you do not live; in a sense even it may be said that every life is a mistake, for no one has found the truth.” —Carl Jung.
“Real liberation comes not from glossing over or repressing painful states of feeling, but only from experiencing them to the full.” -Carl Jung
“The fact is that each person has to do something different, something that is uniquely his own.” -Carl Jung
“Why are you looking around for help? Do you believe that help will come from outside? What is to come is created in you and from you. Hence look into yourself. Do not compare, do not measure. No other way is like yours. All other ways deceive and tempt you. You must fulfill the way that is in you.”— Carl Jung.
“I have observed that a life directed to an aim is in general better, richer, and healthier than an aimless one, and that it is better to go forwards with the stream of time than backwards against it.” —Carl Jung
“Art is a kind of innate drive that seizes a human being and makes him its instrument. To perform this difficult office it is sometimes necessary for him to sacrifice happiness and everything that makes life worth living for the ordinary human being.” —Carl Jung
****
Tell your stories away, make your mistakes, liberate your shadow, and shine your authenticity… 🐦🔥
To those who want to know why there is no difference between Jung’s Self and Buddha’s No-Self. They lead to the same path — liberating Ego identity —
https://youtu.be/TS6dyRekTUY?si=2yv6ReDCjlT2Wf7P — The Self vs No-Self: Una & Buddha’s Greatest Debate
Bridge Called Water
Diana Marie Delgado
I wrote hard
on paper
at the bottom
of a pool
near a canyon
where the stars
slid onto their bellies
like fish
I wrote:
…
I went through
the mountain
through the leaves
of La Puente
to see the moon
but it was too late
too long ago
to walk on glass.
…
Near those years
when the house fell on me
my father told me
draw mom
in bed with
another man—
…
From a plum tree
the sound of branches
fall like fruit
I’m older
no longer afraid
my voice like water
pulled from the well
where the wind had been buried
where someone was always
running into my room
asking, what’s wrong?
*****
About this Poem
“In most of my poems, the structure comes last and that was the case for this one: an inverted narrative that begins with a denouement and ends with an experience of unspoken fear. The title, ‘Bridge Called Water,’ is connected to a dream I had in which on a bridge at the bottom of a canyon I met a man, who, in conversing with me, gave me an overwhelming sense of peace. However, that peace, although I did not realize this in the dream itself, was, I realized later, only attainable because I had died. The portion of the poem in which I sit with my father at a kitchen table actually took place and has stayed with me like a splinter; this poem presented me with the opportunity to take it out.”
—Diana Marie Delgado
******
Never underestimate the power of dreams. If we keep our 👁️ open to them, they may unexpectedly or magically help “take a splinter” out of our life. 🐦🔥
The incidental learning about a forbidden, ugly truth (in my teen) made me to bear an unknown “cross” for Mom, has served as one (sub)conscious splinter to restrict DNA-directed, blind wandering, and engined the long search for an external saving-hand to cure the unspeakable pain. In the end, only the Self, assisted by the enlightening and mighty “acts” in my vivid, powerful dreams, could and did take out the aged splinter and remove the ‘cross”.
“Does he deserve his reputation for sexual immorality and impropriety, or should he be judged by the standards of his contemporaries? Should he serve as an inspiration to live life to the fullest, or should he serve as a warning of the dangers of living life without inhibitions? “
https://youtu.be/ReCAr7xvzXQ?si=iQLTPAzCKD4KN-Vw — Casanova & the Art of Seduction Documentary
The absolutely fascinating, unbelievable, provocative Lover in the history… 😵💫
https://youtu.be/CQa8sNZJmhg?si=C88ZTqGo06JprYPA — Why Crushes are So Painful
Here is talk about crush (without using the term, limerence) in connection with Stendhal’s book “On Love” and many relevant literature and philosophies . It more closely explains how my personal LE is originated, crystallized, and maintained, with my increasing awareness and a sense of “peace”.
Now, I’ll read Stendhal’s book that “affirms the potential value and desirability of human passion (crush/limerence) while recognizing its trade-off. We can affirm or deny it with our eyes open and a clear idea of its benefits and its drawbacks.
A crush/limerence hurts because its necessary components facilities both the heights of joy and the depths of despair. It’s up to us to decide whether we are happy with this deal or whether we would rather trade in some of our passion for a touch more clam. “
For Stendhal passion does not present a problem to be solved but rather a brilliant and dangerous force that each of us would do well to wrestle with, either to defeat it or to embrace it. “
As an Easterner (generally with a higher threshold for pains of all sorts), I think I’ll continue calmly embracing this rare passion — keep the desire alive without getting the desired (it doesn’t exist in reality but in imagination) , and channel it through creativities. That’s my task, as I have already eye strongly….
Maybe next Glimmer will hit when I am in least search for it. 😊
Hello everyone. I am sharing another update here. Things are looking good for me LE wise. I am feeling pretty good now, feel like I am slowly reaching towards pre LE stage, fingers crossed :). I am making efforts towards working on some of my key relationships, and I feel that this may have done its part in reducing the flame of LE. I did spot LO here and there on occasions, but it did not trigger me like it used to, so I will take this as a great sign.
I really hope all of you are doing well and feeling good. I am really grateful to LwL. This has been the go to place for me to vent, during the heady highs and especially during the terrible lows. Cheers.
Good news ABCD that you are feeling so much better. Long may it continue.
Even with now getting close to a month of temporary NC, I have found I had a massive easing in the ‘symptoms’ after the first couple of weeks.
It is my biggest insight for a long time on how NC/LC could be, and that – after the initial part – it isn’t living hell.
Basically as you put it, I have had a bit of movement back towards parts of the person I was before the LE – more brain available for attention and interest in other things, basically. It is hard to remember how that way felt when you are in the eye of the storm, isn’t it?
Keep going!
Thanks LaR. Yeah, I did forget what kind of a person I was pre – LE. I am just thinking to myself that life can be much better, like it was before.
LE wasn’t all bad, it has been a bitter sweet experience. Plus, I am now thinking more about my body, trying to be fit. I picked this up during LE, so that’s good.
I am really glad that you are feeling better, keep it up. I am sure you will come out.
Hi ABCD,
it’s so good to see you getting better and better! Seems like you almost made it out of the jungle.
I‘m doing well too, I‘ll see XLO next week for dinner, but I think I’ll handle that well- I got out of my last phase of annoyance too and think I can meet him simply as a friend. Of course not entirely sure, but keep your fingers crossed for me, too.
Pity you me and Bewitched cannot clink our glasses in a few months or whenever we hopefully are completely sure to be out of the mess.
Dear ABCD and Mila,
Yes indeed, us three have recovered well (so far). I have had contact this week but it has been contained and the usual pains / preoccupation is much reduced. A healthy sense of self-preservation (‘Whats in this for me?’) really helps me because otherwise I get deflected into White Knight syndrome or whatever that is in female form, and start feeling all sorry for him. I still love him (am very fond) but that’s Not Happening! I am not getting sucked in to that place again
😁.
As you see, I am recovered but hardly free, yet….
I hope Imho is doing as well as she can, in the circumstances.
LaR – we are the old brigade compared to you and Trifles… you are getting some great insights from your forced NC. I hope all is well with SO…
Ta ra to you all!
Bewitched,
Thanks, you always have a kind word 💙. What a privilege to have a bunch of old-hand limsurvivors like you lot to look up to!
Glad communications have proved non-triggering for you.
Yes, massive insight and change in state of mind here. I can’t (logistically) sustain the NC but might be able to use the knowledge gained to good effect (‘I CAN ride this out and CAN lower the regular ‘dose’ a bit more). Have actually had a bit of text contact lately – felt natural but without it massively triggering dopamine and without the need felt to extend beyond a couple of messages. It is amazing the difference a bit of spaces makes, isn’t it?
Yes, better with SO (thanks for asking) since I reported in on that conversation. It’ll take a while to play out how it affects things, but promising signs.
Hi Bewitched,
Glad to hear you didn’t get sucked in yet. I don’t think there’s any need to feel sorry for him or for you to rescue him for anything, as much or little I gathered from your posts? He seems to get along just fine, or fine enough for you not to endanger your emotional balance for him.
Now that I have reduced contact with XLO to a degree that seems fitting to me, I‘m not riled any more, but I’m also fully aware of a danger to feel sorry for him now and by that get into warmer/softer feelings towards him, but also of a danger of getting annoyed again, so it’s going to be interesting how it will play out to see him next week.
And I also wonder about Imho, and still would like LaR to make it out of his LE with intimate friendship intact, just to prove it’s possible…
It’s a rat-trap, Mila (and I been caught)
Boomtown Rats, Rat-trap (1978):
https://youtu.be/opd14v2I7Ik?feature=shared
But I don’t think I will ever give up on that goal.
The friendship feels less emotive and more genuinely as a friendship should right at this second 🤞 but that’s after blanket NC for 3 weeks, cursory holiday greetings aside. I hear DrL screaming at me: “I’m totally over this, let’s go for coffee” LOL.
Hi Bewitched. Really happy that the negative effects of LE are much reduced now. Super achievement.
I have been asking myself this question – why am I seeking LO? Is she my end goal? This seems to be working now. Earlier, I was not really asking this question, as I was deep in the dopamine highs.
“I still love him (am very fond) but that’s Not Happening! I am not getting sucked in to that place again”
😁.
I am just trying not to go there, scared that I will become weak again. My resolve is stronger now, and I am working to make it even more stronger.
Hi LaR,
I wanted to remark about something you said because this was exactly how my own recovery began:
“I can’t (logistically) sustain the NC but might be able to use the knowledge gained to good effect (‘I CAN ride this out and CAN lower the regular ‘dose’ a bit more). Have actually had a bit of text contact lately – felt natural but without it massively triggering dopamine and without the need felt to extend beyond a couple of messages. It is amazing the difference a bit of spaces makes, isn’t it?”
Yes, precisely. Registering and storing away knowledge like this is really helpful. Especially I think when you have an analytical approach to the LE and try to intellectualise what it going on as a means to overcoming it. Sometimes, for me, this even happened for the wrong reasons – because I was trying to weigh up evidence about my LO and his motivations, but the way I am wired I was always striving for balance (probably in vain since objectivity is difficult from inside the limerence storm). I hesitate to suggest this approach also applies to you because it plays to your ‘T’.
(tho I gotta say, like Mila, I find MBTI waaay too subjective :))
Anyway, noticing when this happens and storing it away was important for me. What I found was that recovery looked very much like beginning to notice such things more and more and more. It still took years, but I eventually got to a place where I was much more objective about him (broadly). There is a childlike quality to people in the throes of limerence that really takes over – an effect of the dopamine/other pleasure neurochemicals – whereas recovery requires for the brain to reject all of that, in a way ‘grow up’. Perhaps all that just applies to me but maybe you will notice something similar, so I said I’d mention it.
You sound good right now! Hope it all continues to go well.
Hi ABCD, Mila, Bewitched, the ‘old’ gang. I’m so pleased to hear your updates.
ABCD, so good to hear how well you are handling occasional LO interactions, great job on that focussed path.
Mila, I hope the dinner goes well next week. I’m sure you will navigate it fine and just be in the moment. So you can hopefully be normal friends again, in a new phase, not the same as before but still warm friends.
Bewitched, are you a White Dame ? Yes I think you are, to me and many lwl folks.
It’s funny. I see myself as the damsel in distress, but really try not to play that role to lure LO as my white knight. I have been resolut not to, even when he prompted me to reveal more personal situation stuff.
If I was younger and less mature and felt the same desire, I can imagine myself may have played on that more to get more attention from LO.
Anyway, like L. Emeritus my grade rating is way below all of yours, and this new term I must try to do better. But I feel far from it right now.
I’m in a world of ‘missing’ pain with all the stupid symptoms and feelings this brings. I see his status online.
Not wished each other Happy New Year yet. Today would be the day to do that or not.
Do I wish him a great 2025 and leave it there and try to let him/it go ?
I need to decide if I go full NC or stay cordial with birthday wishes etc.
Sigh !
Hi Mila,
“I don’t think there’s any need to feel sorry for him or for you to rescue him for anything, as much or little I gathered from your posts? He seems to get along just fine, or fine enough for you not to endanger your emotional balance for him.”
Yes, precisely. He’s a big boy and its arrogant of me to think I can have any effect on his well-being. My reasoning for all of that was his (quite severe, I think) ADHD (my diagnosis – ). Lots of mess-ups at work. And he is extroverted so mess-ups sometimes happen publicly at work. It pains me so I am always nudging support in his direction, though conscious to do so from as unobtrusive a way as possible. Maybe that explains things? But yes, not my problem, really and like I said to LE, the overly negative interpretations of my LO and his motivations actually helps me avoid getting too soft for him.
But I am also aware that anyone with a condition / difference like ADHD needs latitude. And there are a lot of people in my age bracket who were never diagnosed but are simply coping/masking every day.
Hey Imho,
Great to hear from you. Oh my goodness, I feel your pain:
“Do I wish him a great 2025 and leave it there and try to let him/it go ?
I need to decide if I go full NC or stay cordial with birthday wishes etc.
Sigh !”
I had all of this over the holidays and the ambiguity felt like hell – ‘Is he going to reach out?’, ‘Am I’?, it happened for Christmas but also in a sense for New Years. What happened was that neither of us did. Once that happened over Christmas, the anxiety went away and I was absolutely fine from the 25th onwards – I think because uncertainty was removed.
My advice is not to reach out, but if he does, then you can think about your response. It’ll be tough to resist but if I understand your dynamic well (which I might not!), I think you’ll feel better afterwards after not making the first move. Personally, I can always find a reason to make that first move (see White Dame Syndrome above :D!). But I am stubborn about sticking to what I think will make me feel better afterwards, which is not to make the first move and to justify this as “living my own life”.
Good luck Imho – you’re in the wars right now but this will pass.
Maybe tell yourself that you are Living Your Life!
🤸♀️
Hi ABCD,
“I have been asking myself this question – why am I seeking LO? Is she my end goal? This seems to be working now. Earlier, I was not really asking this question, as I was deep in the dopamine highs.
I am just trying not to go there, scared that I will become weak again. My resolve is stronger now, and I am working to make it even more stronger.”
I am so glad that you have chanced upon a construction that works for you with your line “why am I seeking LO? Is she my end goal”. I think this question is very different for everyone but its crucial to find something to ask your self which works. In my case, this might be about not being a White Dame (thanks Imho!). It would be something else for Mila or Snow or LaR.
You seem like a big softie – like me in that sense, haha. I think maybe sometimes there is a thing about wanting to be nice / fear of not being very nice towards someone we like (LO is nice!). But, in your own words you are also fighting a separate battle which is the dopamine high brain addiction to LO. It is therefore justified not to sacrifice oneself but to create or find a construction that help re-programme the mind when it comes to LO. For me, I need to harden my heart against him a bit. Its got nothing to do with him and everything to do with me and my rescue complex 🫅. He’ll never know about my construct, so no harm will be done. Instead, I’ll be a more stable and generous person around him as I’ll be able to treat him normally instead of (very much) the opposite / not normally.
Wishing you all the best!
Bewitched,
Quick note on all things MBTI. I feel
persuaded (and I credit Snow for this, even though she may not have meant it) that it can be used in a non subjective way. That is – don’t assume for example that any individual is exclusively ‘a T’ or ‘an F’. Rather we all have thinking and feeling sides that we apply in different proportions, and we can coach ourselves or be coached to tweak how, when and in what proportion we apply them. If I am overall T, for example, I can still consciously choose to ‘apply my F to situation X’ where normally I may rely on T.
At risk of attempting amateur psychology on someone I don’t know other than through written word … I detect in you that you have strong F and strong T. I say this because your posts are analytical, but also show strong regard for the recipient’s feelings. So I reckon you have a midway T-F style. If you do, that means you and I are similar. And if we are similar in that way, your ‘escape route’ from LE can be one for me to model on.
Take the theory out of it and I do really find inspiration in your story, because it seems you have come out of it with warm feelings (but not limerent feelings) towards LO. When I was in the eye of the storm I looked at last year’s LwL Christmas ramblings and happened to see where you were at then. Your progress since then (as I suggested in a post to you before this Christmas) is massive.
Thank you for the suggestion to try and really register the insight, to ‘bottle’ it for later use. I think (?feel😂) I need an accumulation of insight about LO/LE along different ‘tracks’, to help me disentangle the friendship and limerence, and get out of limerence properly. I have a few of these tracks open now but this new one from the holidays is maybe the most powerful so far, and helps me make sense of some of the previous evidence. Some of it tells me why she would be a very challenging if not unsuitable (to me) partner. She is by contrast a top-notch friend.
Here is an interesting thing about my T and F to finish with, though … at the start of my NC, I tried to use all the might of my T to push away the urge to send and receive texts. It didn’t work – I still thought about it every 5 minutes in increasing rumination spirals. In the end I could only use F (passage of time, doing other things, kindness and rejuvenation to self) to achieve it, and I did achieve it to the point when I am now calm about it. So the insight out of all that might be couched in T terms, and memorable to T, but the process to get there was firmly F.
Funny old world eh?!
“why am I seeking LO? Is she /he my end goal”.
I’ve rambled about this questions a million times, it was quite clear —
1. I was not seeking any one when glimmer hit. Without SO, I was totally free to look around (not unavailable one).
3. The lifetime cptsd was triggered suddenly by the life death event, the pains screamed to be treated.
4. Once realizing chatting/monologuing could reduce cptsd, I purposefully sought/treated LO as a surrogate parent and a silent “therapist” ear, more powerful than all my previous professional shrinks.
5. Of course, he’s not an end goal for pair-bonding with a major flaw — a wanton Sensor (not a white knight). But he served as an effective instrument/object to help my cptsd, it worked!
Glad resisted all temptations with T, F, S, N. Due to my P (imagination and intangible creation), negative de-programming is needed more than the forced NC to stop the itchy fingers, which is aggravating/painful in bringing back dark memories and regrets. The price to pay: a low mood and a sacrifice of imagination.
Great Mila! I am sure your next meeting with XLO will go well. If you are confident in your mind that you can handle it, that’s a huge plus. With me, I used to get jittery thinking about future LO interactions.
Yeah, would be great to share a drink virtually, once we reach the other side. I am confident that I can see the light, still being wary though.
Cheers.
Song of the Day: “Too Much Time On Time On My Hands” – Styx (1981)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORm0NwdbB2E
Ok…
So, I’ve been watching a lot of coverage of the wildfires in the Los Angeles area. It’s 25 degrees and 4 inches of snow where I live. Since I got laid off at the distillery, I have a lot of free time.
They said that the fires were now threatening West Hollywood and the Hollywood Hills. Out if nowhere comes the thought that that was where LO #4 lived when she was with her BF. When I last checked on her social media 3 years ago, there was some tenuous indication that LO and her ex might have gotten back together.
The urge to check it out was almost overwhelming. But, I only slightly fell off the wagon. He has a large public profile. So, I didn’t look at her, I looked at him. It turns out that the fires are uncomfortably close. However, I found no evidence that they had gotten back together. I didn’t look any further.
Yeah, I know…What would I do with the information if I had it? Since I didn’t find anything out about LO #2, it’s a “No harm, No foul” kind of thing but I shouldn’t have done it at all.
Boredom can be dangerous. It’s not the first time it’s inclined me to do something stupid. It’s no longer a conscious effort but I still need to be careful.
Grade: D+
If in your position, I would check both of them, just as a minimum human, care for another human being who, once upon a time, came across my path — even coincidental but still “magical”/fateful, because they changed us in one wya or another.
Life is short, one’s path is narrow and bumpy, anyone and anything who happened to be on it, for long or shout, could be interesting than boredom, depending on the speculation angle. Without seeing shadows, how do we truly appreciate lights?
This is my P talking…
Hello LE,
Thank you for sharing this insight! Those of us with geographically distant LOs – or xLOs – would do well to note that, even after so many years, the devil makes work for idle hands.
Its interesting that those thoughts and urges were lying dormant somewhere. Maybe its just borne out of genuine curiosity. But I must say that reading this from you took me by surprise. As long as you dont think there was anything else prompting this almost drive-by on the socials…?
And well, you put a stop to it once you realised what was happening, and thats the main thing.
“Itchy fingers”, as Snow says, can come and bite you.
🐉🐍
Bewitched,
I’m watching the fingers getting itchy everyday, without reproaching it or trying to stop it. I’m waiting for them to suddenly dance at any given moment….
But they kept postponing the addictive dance, with my green light on, which also shines some futile consequences down the road….
But there is always something unknown down any path — a default of human life, which P mind appreciates 💡
Glad to head yours, ABCD’s, Mila’s👍 🗞️
btw: LE does not sound like helpless romantic as he self-claims, in my 👁️!
Bewitched,
There is something underlying the curiosity.
LO #4 claimed that her ex cheated on her, in retospect likely multiple times. She also claimed that he sucker punched her and gave her a bloody nose. Based on what I observed from her over the years we corresponded, I’m inclined to believe her.
The literature says it’s common for someone to return to an abusive relationship. LO #4 is a PsyD who earned her living working with men in abusive relationships. She claimed her ex was a Narc, she claimed that her father was a Narc and she’s qualified to make those assessments.
LO #4:had an affinity for Narcs. She never met one that she didn’t try to rehabilitate. Damn, those emotionally corrective experiences!
Sometimes, you just have someone’s number. I had hers and she knew it. She once asked, “What do I telegraph to you.” It took a few years but my impressions of her came to pass. I didn’t expect that it would suckered me into it.
I had a feeling that one day she might go back to him. The fires in California got me to wondering if she did.
Beyond that, nothing changed.
I’m kind of with Snow on this. I think my need to check she was safe from the fires would push me into an SM circuit.
But thinking about it, maybe that’s one of those ‘stories I’d tell myself’, if I put my cynical hat on. I don’t think so, but maybe.
So when one of our xLO is suddenly on a life line— a huge fire, flood, earthquake, car accident, the first thing for limerent to react is NOT about how she or he was in the unexpected disaster, but about our old LE pains or whether our curious or genuinely caring inquire would trigger our past limerence❓❓ 😳
Does limerence or superficial love-relationship include any elements of kindness, basic human care, moderate friendship? or is it supposed to be purely selfish for the pair-bonding and its excessive heartaches when it’s not reciprocated? 🤯
LA,
But, the thing is, I don’t know that she is there and I have no connection to her ex.
No, this was all about proving a hunch. The hunch doesn’t have to be about anything meaningful. I justvhavd to have the hunch.
Itake a positive delight when I find put I was right about one.
Snow,
I am not sure if your comment is meant to be directed for L.E. or for my response. But my response is meant to convey the same position you’re expressing: I briefly consider the counter argument before dismissing it.
But that’s only how it looks to me. L.E. will have his own reasoning.
LaR,
It’s for LE and myself, in a scenario in theory: what happens and should happen if some disasters sudden strike a xLO? A “beloved xLO” or “a Narc xLO”?
I just imagined/checked within myself and have to say that I’d care little about the latter perhaps with minimum sadness, “oh, that’s too bad” or silently think, “it’s his fate/karma”. In the same situation, I’d genuinely care/inquire about the former or feel deeply sad should a bad luck falls on his head.
Hi LE,
“No, this was all about proving a hunch.”
This tallys with what you’ve written over the years. You are post-limerent and simply interested in placing the experience into psychological framework and also checking if your theory about xLO#4 are correct. It makes sense when one is limerent and basically fooling oneself about motivations of self and LO that one would really want to know if one was right about certain things later on, as opposed to simply living out a fantasy. It makes sense to me to want to understand whether things we thought we’d understood to be the case, were really the case, or whether they were fantasy and a byproduct of wishful thinking or maybe even overly negative interpretations of things. Personally, the overly negative interpretations of my LO and his motivations actually helps me avoid getting too soft for him.
The only danger with all the above is the illusion of closure – that ‘knowing’ something will bring closure when it only opens up more questions. However, proving to self that you were right is a less open-ended goal and therefore more achievable, perhaps. Even if this is also an illusion, it may keep one happy with one’s own internal narrative to make send of an LE.
Rambling now, a bit hypothetical, I hope you get my meaning.
…to make *sense* of an LE
Yeah, Bewitched,
I get it.
The fires were an odd trigger. LO #4 had posted some pictures of the place when she lived there. So, when I saw them, it was,
“Hmm, I wonder…”
I’ve said it before. LO #4 wasn’t the first woman who told me she was being cheated on and reached out, she was the third. She bore a more than superficial physical resemblance to LO #2 and the LE/EA had some of the same characteristics as my relationship with LO #2 did.
LO #2 defaulted back to her affinity for cheaters. I was curious if LO #4 defaulted back to her affinity for Narcs and returning back to an (alleged) abuser. It would have lent credence to the conventional wisdom.
It would have been a two-fer. I would have been right about my hunch with LO #4 and she would be another statistic that bore out the literature.
Here’s another deep kicker.
LO #4 and I saw a lot of things the same way. Another thing I was curious about if she returned to the guy would be if it could happen to me. One of the therapists I worked with asked if I’d ever re-engage LO #2. I told her not as long as I was married. She asked why. I told her that maybe LO #2 had changed and the only way to find out would be to re-engage her.
The therapist said that it wasn’t someone like LO #2 couldn’t change, it was that they usually don’t and why would I take the risk again when I spent two decades with someone who wasn’t like LO #2. More suitable candidates were out there.
If LO #4 did go back to her ex, she would have to come up with a justification in her mind that would have overcome massive cognitive dissonance. I know what she said about the guy.
For me to re-engage LO #2, I’d have to be available, and either really bored, really lonely, or really desperate. Find yourself in that situation and going over old ground can look pretty appealing. If it could happen to LO #4, it could happen to me. I don’t think it would but forewarned is forearmed.
LO #4 spent 7 years with the guy. If he is a Narc and she was vulnerable, I can see how she might give him another shot. If I ever did find out she went back to the guy, I think I’d be disappointed in her. I would have thought she had more self-respect. LO #4 and I talked about that when all the crap was going on.
But, it’s her life. Trainwrecks can be fun to watch.
Boredom is dangerous.
LE,
I’ve beeping puzzled by how you ever fell for you LO#4 without ever meeting/seeing her in person⁉️ How did you sense her without our basic 5 senses?
Can we really feel/know anyone just by words, phone voice, internet images/presentation?
In my experience, mental-knowing someone is soooooo different from sensorily-knowing them. Sometimes, it’s like day and night.
Hi Snow,
“So when one of our xLO is suddenly on a life line— a huge fire, flood, earthquake, car accident, the first thing for limerent to react is NOT about how she or he was in the unexpected disaster, but about our old LE pains or whether our curious or genuinely caring inquire would trigger our past limerence❓❓ ”
This is an extreme formulation of it, for example in respect of L.E’s situation, because he has explained that he has no reason to think his LO4 is in the area of the fires.
But let’s run with your question more hypothetically, as I have given this one a fair bit of thought.
I think us Westerners are so conditioned into individualism by our culture, that the question of ‘how will this action (e.g. texting xLO to see if he/she is OK – but anything really) affect ME?’ will always run through our minds pretty soon. I don’t like the fact that I’m saying it. And we don’t have to act on what it says to us. But say former limerent ‘A’ has been NC with their LO ‘B’ for ten years, for self preservation reasons … the decision to look them up, or contact them, wouldn’t ever come without deep introspection on ‘what would the impact be on me?’ questions, whatever the circumstances.
I firmly belief this is not an ‘LaR specific’ position, but a conundrum faced by anyone who has been brought up in more individualistic Western cultures vs you in a more collectivist Eastern culture.
People can over-ride that software to different extents, based on their nurture and depending on their individual circumstances, and for example what the reason is for potentially breaking NC, and the circumstances of why they are NC. A bit like your example from yesterday – I don’t think I’d look up Narc xSO even in those fire circumstances because I honestly just don’t care. If it was LO3 for example, I would look her up, without fear it would trigger me (all of God’s might won’t move LO4 out of her ‘slot’ for the time being anyway, but even before that, I don’t think looking at LO3’s socials would have dragged me back).
Everyone is making their own risk-reward calculation about these things and there are a whole host of factors playing in to that. But Westerners do start from a whole different cultural basis – without wishing to put any moral judgement on that. Like I say, we can ‘unlearn’ it, but self-preservation is pretty conditioned into most of us.
LaR,
Your response in individualism is very informative, it will take time to sink into my conscious. It would help me understand, hopefully accept with more peace, some bewildering/hurtful behaviors, ie from xLOs.
“I think us Westerners are so conditioned into individualism by our culture, that the question of ‘how will this action (e.g. texting xLO to see if he/she is OK – but anything really) affect ME?’ will always run through our minds pretty soon. “
In an unfortunate situation (xLO is affected by the LA fire, or has got a terminal cancer), in my culture, “me” would be moved out of the equation — “I” would stop any self-concerns for the time being for their possible mental needs, be it texting or sending caring greetings.
“But say former limerent ‘A’ has been NC with their LO ‘B’ for ten years, for self preservation reasons … the decision to look them up, or contact them, wouldn’t ever come without deep introspection on ‘what would the impact be on me?’ questions, whatever the circumstances.”
Hmm… such a question did not happen to me with strong P — Purely curiosity. I randomly looked up Narc Crush (not LO) #3, 6, and 2, 4.5 in 2023, but had no interests to contact them. And their whereabouts did not interest me or trigger me one bit — they’ve become a concept/an object, not a fleshy person. Once a true NC took place in my entire system, I could be “horrifyingly” indifferent — nothing could ever crawl back from the rotten coffin to trigger the evolved/evolving me.
“I don’t think I’d look up Narc xSO even in those fire circumstances because I honestly just don’t care.”
I think their existence would cross my mind, but I would not make any enquiry, don’t care!
“But Westerners do start from a whole different cultural basis – without wishing to put any moral judgement on that. Like I say, we can ‘unlearn’ it, but self-preservation is pretty conditioned into most of us.
Majority (not all) of less-informed/less-educated/less-experienced COO folks (with little knowledge of psychology or mental health) judge such Western “self-preservation” as selfishness or excessively self-centered. Living in the west, it’s easier to understand and handle it when self-interests are not involved.
However, when it shows in love/romance/affection arena where concrete behavioral giving, sharing, compromising and sacrificing are more involved/needed, “self-preservation” causes problems and can hurt other side badly. The West has less contentment in relationships and a much higher rate of divorce/breakup — men’s best friend is dog; women’s gay man.
Hi LE
“She [LO#4] bore a more than superficial physical resemblance to LO #2 and the LE/EA had some of the same characteristics as my relationship with LO #2 did.”
As well as these LOs going back to the same guy (who were a cheater / narc), I find it interesting that you fell for the same type of female twice. I know you said and others guessed before that LO2 was a borderline – was this true of LO4 as well? Or were they just both redhead damels in distress?
Probably not but if so, that would be a three-fer.
Interestingly, I dont know many people who are damaged in that way. Narc, maybe, within my own family ( which is something quite terrifying to witness in someone you love even platonically).
Anyway, your analytical skills (and memory) and very impressive!
Bewitched,
The ability see history repeat itself likely went a long way in saving me. One of the lessons learned from all this was to never again become the confidante of a woman who’s being cheated on. Tell them that whatever happens, you hope it leads to their eventual happiness. Then, disappear.
I’d be slandering LO #4 to say that she might be a borderline. I caught a few whiffs of it but I didn’t know her well enough to even hazard a call on that subject. Shari Schreiber says that it’s not uncommon for borderlines and narcs to hook up, so who knows?
I don’t know that LO #4 went back to the guy. I do know that her ex was at least the second narc she had a relationship with. That she posted on her site. When it came to narcs, LO #4 had this cognitive blind spot. One would show up on her site and she would rise to the bait like a trout to a fly. Seriously. I was a mod on her site and I would tell her to stop taking the bait. Finally, another mod, who was a real life friend of hers, told LO #4 to listen to me. I was right about her. LO #4 liked the expression, “like a cat playing with a half dead mouse.” Only, in these scenarios, she was the mouse.
When I was in the middle of the LE/EA with LO #4, I confided in an old Navy buddy. He knew LO #2 when we were dating back in the 80s. One day, we met for dinner and I was telling him about what was going on. He took a look at my wedding ring and said that, ignoring the obvious elephant in the room (i.e., me being married), why on earth would I get involved with a woman who reminded me of LO #2? And, to think, I could have saved some money by talking to him instead of a therapist.
As for the memory, my friend, the LCSW, said that was classic PTSD. You replay events over and over and remember them like they were yesterday. It took a long time and a lot of effort to beat those down.
Obviously, they’re still there.
Snow,
” “self-preservation” causes problems and can hurt other side badly. The West has less contentment in relationships and a much higher rate of divorce/breakup”
Yes, I tend to agree. I was trying to explain the Western conditioning without justifying it.
Go back to even the early 1980s and Westerners then would be more similar to Easterners now. The divorce stats would also be similar I reckon. The rampant individualism came from then onwards.
Some (not all) Westerners would respond by saying it is better to leave an unhappy relationship than to stay put and make each other unhappy. But whether there are children comes massively into it.
Some can/do push past the western individualist conditioning more than others. What you said to me about your perceptions about my friendship with MFF for example did really REALLY make me think about all this – how can I find it in myself to put this friendship completely above squashing my limerence? And hopefully squash it anyway? But if not, how still to keep doing it sustainably?
The above are rhetorical questions to myself, that I have honestly not put to you wanting answers. We have visited this topic enough already (for now, anyway), I feel pretty strong about it currently, and anything else would scramble my now clearer brain.
What I’m saying is that it is a thought process I still had / have to grapple with. As an Easterner I think you’d come at it from a completely different start point and programming. If you’d had an equivalent of my MFF situation, maybe you’d never have got into an LE because the friendship would put the MFF in a different box – not LO material? But dammit, that decade-old glimmer …
“men’s best friend is dog; women’s gay man.”
This really had me laughing aloud. Not least because one of my very best friends is a dog 😂 And I have been told by more than one woman, and indeed one gay man, that I am definitely gay (Spoiler – I am 100% not gay).
As a PS to the stuff on forgiveness (have lost where that was in the threads above now) – I do think you were right on some level that my expressions like ‘learn to live with it’ or ‘make peace with it’ *do* convey that the ‘it’ is still there on some level, not a completely removed splinter. Maybe your ESL was a benefit there in letting you decode my language in a way I couldn’t. I am at peace with those past SOs as much as I can and need to be. But maybe that’s still a bit different from your sense of forgiveness as you said.
We are learning from each other!
LaR,
“The rampant individualism came from then onwards.”
I don’t know well the societal development in the modern Western era; but just from classical movies/books, it seems that (by proportion) the sense of self, individualism, romanticism, even in the Victorian era is much stronger than the East, especially Red COO.
“Some (not all) Westerners would respond by saying it is better to leave an unhappy relationship than to stay put and make each other unhappy.”
While it’s true that the Easterner try to compromise more and stay in a “bad” relationship, that’s not the issue. The issue I was trying to convey is, what makes average easterners unhappy is not what makes average Easterners unhappy; there are more stuff to make the former concerned/dissatisfied/irked do NOT have the same/similar affects in the latter. A matter that could cause an argument in a Western couple would not be a necessary issue in the East. There are more to be desired, required, expected and demanded (even just in one’s head) in a relationship/marriage in the West than the East. Myself got more mimetic “needs’ and anxieties, which were missing in my “old” life.
“Self-preservation” in the East is similar to the West in most other areas of life, except in loving relationship that requires each side cares about and does for the other side and “we” first, much more than “I” first or this “self-preservation” first. To love (after glimmer) is to first give and then take, simultaneously in a two-way traffic, and to sacrifice, (like in the story of “The Gift of the Magi”) in many aspects of a couple’s relationship, even just good friends.
As I mentioned before, a solid friendship has to pass three big (unannounced or natural ) trials (more for males), in which each side (women) could watch how the other side deal with trails. If this “self-preservation” is kept intact in one’s head, one would fail the trails. And without 3 or more trails, wise Easterners would not enter a marriage, regardless that pair-bonding drive (-“the beast’s nature”). Of course, there are still a lot of marital tie out of convenience/social/economic benefits.
“how can I find it in myself to put this friendship completely above squashing my limerence?”
Like in Aristotle, friendship is almost placed in the highest position in the East. Many Eastern spirituality and philosophies stress the danger of passion and advocate lasting, substantial friendship. Even ordinary folks think that passion is like flower, passing soon or later, but not a tree-like friendship, if both sides make efforts to keep the tree growing. Romanticism has “glorified” one’s passion for another one — impossible to be sustained for long; but Fisher’s MRI data has refuted such a belief, which I like.
“If you’d had an equivalent of my MFF situation, maybe you’d never have got into an LE because the friendship would put the MFF in a different box – not LO material?
Yes. That’s probably why I did not and could not glimmer at (let alone to fall in LE with ) any of my friends, close or loose, despite I am very fond of some. If they fell in LE with/crushed for me, that’s not my fault — I NEVER teased any lim-pal or gave them a slight hope that I might become more than a friend to them. It’s the meanest thing to do to another human being — purposefully dallying at their heart/emotions for one’s own gain or whatever reasons.
“But dammit, that decade-old glimmer …”
A DNA germinated seed is the toughest or impossible to kill/remove unless it is totally consummated or starved to death — neither seems possible in your situation.
“And I have been told by more than one woman, and indeed one gay man, that I am definitely gay (Spoiler – I am 100% not gay).”
I believe it, just to see how many ghosts ladies here are chitchatting with you — possibly a Casanova or a 🎭Frankenstein ❓🤣
“I am at peace with those past SOs as much as I can and need to be. But maybe that’s still a bit different from your sense of forgiveness as you said. “
A hypothetical question here: if your Narc xLO suddenly came to ask you for a forgiveness, for possible redemption or inner peace or whatever reasons (but not reenter friendship), would you give it to her with a peaceful, content, kind smile?
Snow,
“it seems that (by proportion) the sense of self, individualism, romanticism, even in the Victorian era is much stronger than the East, especially Red COO.”
So – maybe then the changes I’ve observed since the 80s are an extension of things (politics of the time sped up ‘society’ crumbling) that were already ‘in train’ happening much earlier. There are generational differnces too. My grandads survived world wars. If ever there was a message about the need for collectivism, that must be it? Ask my mother what to do to to be a good person and she’d say something like “do good deeds for your neighbour” (and mean it and actually do them herself). My generation picked some of that up, but not as strongly.
“A matter that could cause an argument in a Western couple would not be a necessary issue in the East”
I think that can be traced back to the individualism of the West too.
“To love (after glimmer) is to first give and then take, simultaneously in a two-way traffic, and to sacrifice” (like in the story of “The Gift of the Magi”)”
I like this way of mate / friend selection and can see why it leads to very good and sustained friendships and partnerships in COO.
“Fisher’s MRI data has refuted such a belief, which I like.”
Which belief has it refuted? The one that passion with one person can last, or the opposite one – that it can’t last?
“It’s the meanest thing to do to another human being — purposefully dallying at their heart/emotions for one’s own gain or whatever reasons.”
I don’t think it is always done meanly. In Western Culture certainly, the lines between friendship and more can get incredibly blurred. And a lot of people, men especially, are awful at decoding intentions wrongly. Look at my situation with MFF (again!) for example. I have spent 18 months wondering whether the ambiguities in her signals mean she is signalling friendship or something more, and still I have no clue really. I don’t think she has done that in any kind of calculated way – just felt comfortable enough to act in the ways she has towards me and ‘be herself’ (which has a big flirtatious side in the core). I wouldn’t want her any other way. And yet – still – as a guy with reasonable N and T abilities – I can’t decode it reliably.
“neither seems possible in your situation”
Strictly hypothetically speaking, if I really dug deep, I could starve the oxygen out of the LE, but I’d deservedly lose her friendship if I did. It would be cruel to her and to myself and nobody would win. In respect of ‘cruel to her’, I say this because I have dug myself in very deep as a confidante – and to withdraw that for self preservation reasons would be pretty despicable (unless she wanted me to back off, which you’ll say she won’t). Not sure how I’d live with myself if I did that just for self interest. And I don’t actually think (contra most LwL wisdom) that losing her would do net good for my own self either.
“I believe it, just to see how many ghosts ladies here are chitchatting with you — possibly a Casanova or a 🎭Frankenstein ❓🤣”
It’s a microcosm of something I have found in real life since my mid / late 20s – that a lot of women get comfortable chatting to me without me being intentional or calculated about making that happen. But it is also that comfort level (it is a different thing from flirting or attraction) that makes some women think I’m gay! Like the gay-but-not-gay best friend, if that makes any sense?! One formulation I have for how MFF sees me is this one, though she is not among the women to ever say it.
“if your Narc xLO suddenly came to ask you for a forgiveness, for possible redemption or inner peace or whatever reasons (but not reenter friendship), would you give it to her with a peaceful, content, kind smile”
The best I could do was say ‘we both made some mistakes, now let’s just move on’. No smiling. 😐
LaR,
“Which belief has it refuted? The one that passion with one person can last, or the opposite one – that it can’t last?]
Yes. Fisher’s MRI tests show that couples of more than 25 years are still IN LOVE. Many philosophers and cultures believe Eros cannot last long.
“I don’t think it is always done meanly.”
Well, one knows whether one has a crash or not; if not, let the other side (especially if available) go, instead of giving mixed signals thus suspending the other side’s emotions.
“In Western Culture certainly, the lines between friendship and more can get incredibly blurred. And a lot of people, men especially, are awful at decoding intentions wrongly.”
In your situation, only friendship could possibly survive if you want to keep your relationship with SO intact. So why bother wondering this “more”? Yon cannot have “more” than a friendship.
“I have spent 18 months wondering whether the ambiguities in her signals mean she is signalling friendship or something more, and still I have no clue really. “
Just said above, why bother “wondering” since it’s futile⁉️
“I don’t think she has done that in any kind of calculated way – just felt comfortable enough to act in the ways she has towards me and ‘be herself’ (which has a big flirtatious side in the core).”
From what you have said so far, I don’t think she’s keeping a bail on you, or dally at your LE affections. You’re unavailable, so it’s you who needs to walk away, not “holding her up” in any fashions.
“I wouldn’t want her any other way. “
Of course, not. You’re in limerence with her! Again, she’s better off if she’s not in LE with you. And It’s not hard to keep a friendship with limerent friends, as long as they don’t cross the line. That’s my experiences.
“And yet – still – as a guy with reasonable N and T abilities – I can’t decode it reliably.”
If you say that her E has flirtatious elements (from your measuring stick), then believe that she’s not in LE with you. Also, if she’s indeed a non-limerent type, then perhaps you would not want her type of reciprocation.
“Strictly hypothetically speaking, if I really dug deep, I could starve the oxygen out of the LE, but I’d deservedly lose her friendship if I did.”
I don’t think so. I’ve lost a couple of married friend in the simulate situation — I wanted to remind their friend, but they were unable due to their LE pains. So I just “sighed”. 😟
“It would be cruel to her and to myself and nobody would win.”
I understood my married friends’ decision and felt sad. But I didn’t think it’s cruel.
“In respect of ‘cruel to her’, I say this because I have dug myself in very deep as a confidante – and to withdraw that for self preservation reasons would be pretty despicable”
It’s not just for self-preservation, but also a preservation for your relationship with SO. Of course, the most thing you need to withdraw is your LE.
“(unless she wanted me to back off, which you’ll say she won’t).”
Please don’t solely rely on my words, I’m NOT your MFF and can’t possibly know what’s going on in her mind. All I know is that I would enjoy a “gay” friendship if they don’t pull away for their own and their family’s sake. It’s selfishness of mine.
“Not sure how I’d live with myself if I did that just for self interest. And I don’t actually think (contra most LwL wisdom) that losing her would do net good for my own self either.”
It sounds like LE thinking. If she thinks you just as a great friend (not in LE with you), why do you think “losing you” would be “devastating” to her thus your action would be deemed as “cruel”?
“One formulation I have for how MFF sees me is this one, though she is not among the women to ever say it.”
It would be her fortune if she sees you as a “gay” friendship. Holding this formulation could help you “decode” her “ambiguous” behaviors. The issue is your LE.
“The best I could do was say ‘we both made some mistakes, now let’s just move on’. No smiling. 😐”
Ah, the splinter is still there…. 🙂 I understand and am sorry for your deep wound.
Snow,
A lot of the things you said in the last message are talking to my T (I feel like you have aimed it at T – was that a deliberate tactic this time to see if I can be ‘shaken out of it’?), as if my F is not an operational part of the picture. But in fact F is a powerful 🧲 drive that pulls against 🧠 T almost all the time. 👫 needs both to work together.
Here is the central (T) premise of where I’m at, before I say anything else. I know from the clearer insight I’ve had lately, that I can and should gently pull back a bit more. But there will be a stopping point where there is the best possible equilibrium, and it becomes in nobody’s interest for me to pull back more still.
“In your situation, only friendship could possibly survive if you want to keep your relationship with SO intact”
T knows that.
“So why bother wondering this “more”? You cannot have “more” than a friendship.”
Yes sure, in a logical T sense, but F won’t always have it. I can’t *help* but wonder what her signals say. I don’t have conscious control over whether I wonder. Nothing I can do will reprogramme me to stop wondering until F is ready to stop. I (T) agree with you it would be better not to wonder, though.
“From what you have said so far, I don’t think she’s keeping a bail on you”
Please explain what this expression means as I don’t know it.
“You’re unavailable, so it’s you who needs to walk away”
Walk away from what part? In what sense? I’m pretty sure you don’t mean ‘completely’.
“And it’s not hard to keep a friendship with limerent friends, as long as they don’t cross the line. That’s my experiences”
This is a very interesting insight from you – thank you. It might sound straightforward but this really does help me to see it written down in such clear terms.
“Please don’t solely rely on my words”
I won’t. Always, the thing I rely on first is my instinct and intuition. Even when there is no great route to find, only the ‘least bad’ one, I trust my instinct above all else.
“why do you think “losing you” would be “devastating” to her thus your action would be deemed as “cruel”?”
I didn’t use ‘devastating’, I used ‘despicable’. ‘Devastating’ = ‘to her’. ‘Despicable’ = ‘of me’. I couldn’t possibly judge if it would be devastating – only she could know that, as you point out. I was making a judgement on myself, not on how she may feel.
If you want to know why I think it would be despicable of me (and cruel), really it comes back to our earlier 🤺 about friendship. It is down to what a real friendship means and the type of friendship that (at the time) you doubted I could hold for MFF because of wording I used.
I am her only source of support currently on certain matters (her words). There are things she’s told me in the last year where she said at the time “I have never told this to anyone else” or “the last person I told this to walked away from me when I did”. That’s how deep I am dug in. I don’t think you need me to tell you why it would be cruel to take that away for selfish reasons. Especially when I have let myself, and sometimes encouraged myself, to become dug in that deep (not without her willing to let me be, I should point out).
I am not saying she wouldn’t eventually find other friends to fulfil these roles, but I am saying would be cruel of me to take that friendship away if I don’t have to. There is really complicated stuff behind all this. Think of yourself in her position and how it could feel if it was suddenly yanked away.
And yes sure, you’ve highlighted that pulling away would not just for self-preservation but also for SO / for mine and SO’s relationship. Entirely fair point – and by not pulling back, I am arguably being ‘cruel’ to SO. But it comes back to what you’ve said before – we cannot put all our expectation on one person or expect that person to meet all our needs. What I need to do (and it is the same thing I have been banging on about since the day I landed here) is to squash the LE without losing the friendship. I can’t control this with T only, it needs both to be ready.
I am sorry that this leads to me going round and round the LwL merry go-round in what I write. I’m grateful for your patience about it and will try to stop doing it so much.
“It would be her fortune if she sees you as a “gay” friendship. Holding this formulation could help you “decode” her “ambiguous” behaviors. The issue is your LE.”
Yep, logical T vs free-running F here again
(Me)“The best I could do was say ‘we both made some mistakes, now let’s just move on’. No smiling. 😐”
(You)”Ah, the splinter is still there…. 🙂 I understand and am sorry for your deep wound.”
A bit, but I am not sure how deep it runs these days. Earlier in the forgiveness discussion you said we should not give external, ‘showy’ displays of forgiveness unless they are authentic. I agreed. Your question that led to my answer above was about whether I would give such an external display. I couldn’t in the case of Narc xSO without it being inauthentic. I am just not minded to be nice to her, even if hypothetically asked to. I wouldn’t want to. A farmer reaps what they sow. But that’s a different thing from whether I can live at peace with everything that happened, which I can.
LaR,
“was that a deliberate tactic this time to see if I can be ‘shaken out of it’?), as if my F is not an operational part of the picture. But in fact F is a powerful 🧲 drive that pulls against 🧠 T almost all the time. 👫 needs both to work together.”
It’s not deliberate, I was in the mood or perhaps your previous message just prompted me to do so. T can influence F and vice versa. Everything we say or argue here goes to the Unconscious, which would do its work in its own manner and pace.
“But there will be a stopping point where there is the best possible equilibrium, and it becomes in nobody’s interest for me to pull back more still.”
Here is your T controlling. Ca you let it be more organic without expecting or planning/defining that “there will be a stopping point”, just let it naturally unfold?
“ I (T) agree with you it would be better not to wonder, though.”
I know you can’t help it, you’re in LE.
[“From what you have said so far, I don’t think she’s keeping a bail on you”
Please explain what this expression means as I don’t know it.]
Meaning knowing/sensing your LE in some degree, but keeping this flirtatious interaction/“dancing” to keep you hooked — keeping your affection for her.
“Walk away from what part? In what sense? I’m pretty sure you don’t mean ‘completely’.”
Ideally, one can walk away completely (physical NC), and when LE is gone, come back to friendship. But In your reality, it’s impossible; therefore, it might be impossible for you to separate your LE from friendship, unless another LO suddenly arrives.
“I didn’t use ‘devastating’, I used ‘despicable’. ‘Devastating’ = ‘to her’. ‘Despicable’ = ‘of me’.”
To play with words here, if it’s not devastating to her, how could it be “despicable” of you? Since you don’t know her mind, you cannot put judgment on yourself, that adds an unnecessary mental pain — a bit of too much T here.
“It is down to what a real friendship means and the type of friendship that (at the time) you doubted I could hold for MFF because of wording I used.”
Well, sometime one just can’t have it ALL. Ideally, one can choose one temporarily and come back to another, but LE brain is altered, out of our reasoning and control. DrL and some experts have to come up with more possible solutions.
“I am her only source of support currently on certain matters (her words). …I don’t think you need me to tell you why it would be cruel to take that away for selfish reasons. “
I did not know this fact, which would affirm your choice of the word “cruel”. As a good friend, she needs to back up if she knows how much LE “torture” you’re going through. But she maybe not ready (or vulnerable) to deal with these “certain matters” on her own.
“Think of yourself in her position and how it could feel if it was suddenly yanked away.”
I know down to my soul how it feels. If you can’t “yank” away yourself, then you’d have to endure this LE, for however long it lasts. Your friendship sounds like fanning your LE.
“Entirely fair point – and by not pulling back, I am arguably being ‘cruel’ to SO. “
I meant to put one sentence in my last message, “In the mainstream moral sense…” then I forgot.
“But it comes back to what you’ve said before – we cannot put all our expectation on one person or expect that person to meet all our needs.”
I’m standing by the concept, but it’s “harmful” to our mind when LE is involved. If it can be done joyfully and peacefully, then it’s healthy.
“squash the LE without losing the friendship. I can’t control this with T only, it needs both to be ready.”
To me, your F can’t be ready with T keep arguing in backing up friendship, and when the reality— physical NC, is not possible.
“Yep, logical T vs free-running F here again”.
More so going loop inside your head, and writing the battle done could both easing it and also reinforce it. Your mind needs to be distracted. Have you started “War and Peace” yet?
“Earlier in the forgiveness discussion you said we should not give external, ‘showy’ displays of forgiveness unless they are authentic. I agreed.”
I don’t think I’ve used the world “should not” in giving a forgiveness when it is asked for by one’s “enemy”; I meant not to display such a “nobel deed” to others. But if a forgivee asks for it, then it’s not just a “display”; it might be for their “redemption” or some other spiritual benefits. Then comes a true challenge: for yourself, you can’t give an authentic one; for Narc xSO, she needs one; so “to do or not to do”❓
“I am just not minded to be nice to her, even if hypothetically asked to. I wouldn’t want to. “
No one would force/compel you to do it, if you’re not ready. it’s not wrong if you wouldn’t and couldn’t.
“A farmer reaps what they sow. “
So you’d be teaching/forcing a lesson on another, without ever giving them a chance to redeem themselves when they want to?
“But that’s a different thing from whether I can live at peace with everything that happened, which I can.”
It just sound like you can live in peace with the splinter, but a buddhistic heart or Stoic mind could pull that splinter out.
Now there is no need to ponder such a hypothetical issue.
Snow,
“Can you let it be more organic without expecting or planning/defining that “there will be a stopping point””
Yes, that’s a good idea. I have resisted trying to pinpoint what and when the stopping point will be, exactly.
“therefore, it might be impossible for you to separate your LE from friendship”
It involves a lot of spinning in loops as you’ve seen. But from those loops does come some (slow and inconsistent) movement. There is definite progress – with blips, but still overall progress – since Spring of last year in the disentangling operation.
“unless another LO suddenly arrives”
She would have to be quite something to knock this one out of the picture. It is not an aim to find another one (But yes, mischievous F/Aphrodite could always have its surprising way!). I understand the Glimmer now and would be pushing against it early doors in the future, in a way that I didn’t this time, pre LwL and the knowledge I have gained from it.
“if it’s not devastating to her, how could it be “despicable” of you”
The difference at a language level is that I’m not qualified to judge one, whereas I am with the other.
“As a good friend, she needs to back up if she knows how much LE “torture” you’re going through”.
She doesn’t know, nor can I tell her. I have – I believe – only once put out an overt display of it where there wasn’t plausible deniability. Her S is strong, so it is possible she sensed it then. But it was quite some time ago and didn’t seem to have any negative effect on how she was towards me in the aftermath. It was at that point that the LE bubble (euphoria stage) properly burst – I really sat up and thought “hang on, you are not far from getting yourself into real trouble here, time for action” – in fact it was that episode that started me talking on LwL. I have been much more ‘small s’ stoic since in what I present – I avoid her on days I suspect I’ll leak.
It isn’t “torture” generally, but for the obvious reasons bits of the last few weeks have been worse (better in the second half of the break though). Usually it is more cyclical between positive and negative feelings. In terms of her ‘backing up’, it is as much my fault – probably more – as her fault that we ended up where we did. My runaway F brain was willing to do almost anything in late 2022 /early 2023 to draw her closer to me and increase the bond. I have pulled back since, but it is still more my responsibility to pull back than hers, assuming she doesn’t have the knowledge of my LE.
“But she maybe not ready (or vulnerable) to deal with these “certain matters” on her own.”
Some of it is more practical, some more emotion-based. I am not unhappy with my role where it comes to these things (but you might rightly say ‘of course you’re not!’). They don’t fan the LE now, but do bind us as friends.
“If you can’t “yank” away yourself, then you’d have to endure this LE, for however long it lasts”
Yes, I consider that to be me reaping what I’ve sown. It’s a path I created and one I have to walk now to wherever its ending is.
“Your mind needs to be distracted. Have you started “War and Peace” yet?”
Not yet – SO is not keen, so it is a case of trying to carve out time for myself – but I will. I spent a large chunk of last week distracting myself very successfully (watching loads of other stuff – but sometimes to switch my brain off, I need to watch ‘rubbish’!).
“Then comes a true challenge: for yourself, you can’t give an authentic one; for Narc xSO, she needs one; so ‘to do or not to do’ ”
Partly as a result of what happened with her, I adopted the mindset that from then on out in life, I wouldn’t do as little as possible across the board that felt inauthentic. So the answer is ‘not to do’ – I would choose to be true to my feelings first, before hers (wasn’t always the case). It wouldn’t change unless or until that splinter was fully removed, and I could be authentic about it.
“So you’d be teaching/forcing a lesson on another, without ever giving them a chance to redeem themselves when they want to?”
I’m not saying I would apply this logic hard and fast to every person and every situation in my past. I have given redemption to many others before, and it takes a lot to get me to a point where I’d feel like anyone needed to redeem themselves anyway (I don’t trust that easily).
Narc xSO is free to plant and reap a different crop in the future, but she needs to do that reaping with someone else.
LaR,
[“if it’s not devastating to her, how could it be “despicable” of you”
The difference at a language level is that I’m not qualified to judge one, whereas I am with the other.]
If she’s in LE with you, it could be despicable; if she is just in friendship, nothing you do could hurt her that much. Losing a friend is fundamentally different than losing LO when you’re still in LE. That’s my experience. But we do not know where she is.
“in fact it was that episode that started me talking on LwL. I have been much more ‘small s’ stoic since in what I present – I avoid her on days I suspect I’ll leak.”
Sounds like you have much better control than I did (also I didn’t have SO). I wish so much that I could have found LwL much earlier.
“but it is still more my responsibility to pull back than hers, assuming she doesn’t have the knowledge of my LE.”
Yes. It IS, for your own sake.
“Some of it is more practical, some more emotion-based. I am not unhappy with my role where it comes to these things (but you might rightly say ‘of course you’re not!’). They don’t fan the LE now, but do bind us as friends.”
I doubt that it doesn’t fan the LE. I remember how I was thrilled when 👽 leaked a bit of his marital“hiccup”, thinking that if I could be of some emotional help, he’d come closer to me (I wished he could tell me more about existing issues in his life — everyone had/has). I had/have a certain amount of “rescue” complex, are you saying you do not have any in dealing with MFF’s emotional needs?
“but sometimes to switch my brain off, I need to watch ‘rubbish’!.”
I think that only numbs brain for a bit and does not take the existing issues away. I go into mind-wringing stuff (reading or movies), which would substantially take my mind somewhere else, which could also indirectly reign LE thoughts. .
I adopted the mindset that from then on out in life, I wouldn’t do as little as possible across the board that felt inauthentic. “
It’s “wouldn’t” or “would”?
“So the answer is ‘not to do’ – I would choose to be true to my feelings first, before hers (wasn’t always the case).”
If she never asks for it, then NO issue! However, if she asks for it after such a long time, “not to do” would be a form of “punishment”. Is your authenticity or kindness to another’s redemption need more important? Does giving a needed forgiveness hurt yourself?
“It wouldn’t change unless or until that splinter was fully removed, and I could be authentic about it.”
In your opinions, how the splinter could be fully removed?
“it takes a lot to get me to a point where I’d feel like anyone needed to redeem themselves anyway (I don’t trust that easily).”
There is no need to trust in this era/arena where/when people/nations tend to find scapegoat(s) for their own wrong doings. In theory, there are people who still want to cultivate peace in their soul, then interested in a self-redemption process.
Stoics (they make mistakes, too) could redeem themselves without telling anyone or asking anyone else’s forgiveness. But majority of people are not Stoic, and some need forgiveness from those whom they have offended.
“Narc xSO is free to plant and reap a different crop in the future, but she needs to do that reaping with someone else.”
Your previous message sounded like applying to the past: xSO knowingly planted bad seeds, ergo, she deserved reaping unforgivable crops. (Forgiveness is not about anyone’s future.)
By your logic, Dad really should have divorced Mom, but they ended up getting along quite well until he was suddenly gone with little regrets of anything (as far as I know). He forgave those who put him in a labor camp….
Christianity (tradition) is much more punitive than Buddhistic (culture) — that’s my observation.
Snow,
For now just a quick reply on the ‘certain matters’ / ’emotional support’. I will get back to xSOs and forgiveness, as those topics need more time and bandwith.
No, I couldn’t look you in the 👻👀 and say that giving emotional support didn’t / doesn’t play right into the rescue fantasy complex. I feel like rescue fantasy is almost hardwired into the DNA of males, and then for some it gets activated more by life experiences. I am not the worst for it (my T and N can override my S and F with effort) but am quite ‘typical’ I guess.
Like I admitted last time, a year back my F was rampant and my T at times suspended for about 9 months. 2023 was a year of two halves with the LE. Only the second half, which was the bit you heard about when I started rambling here, was when my T woke up and I became more purposeful.
Before that, mostly whatever drew her closer was OK. I exclude only crossing physical boundaries, disclosure, and talking to her about SO related issues – I still used T (‘executive’) with those and did none of them. But if she wanted to tell me things, fine. I probably brought her to a point where I almost encouraged it. What you said there about 👽’s disclosing of bits to you and how you revelled in it really resonated. It’s why I take the consequences now as my responsibilty and say it would be ‘cruel’ to completely withdraw.
And yes, my ‘wouldn’t’ should have been ‘would’. You spotted my ‘deliberate’ grammar error! ✅️⭐️
LaR,
See if this YT could add more “enlightenment” to your self-discovery process —
https://youtu.be/5VWwEThmjjw?si=dcG-Dl2d-kTM89H3 — Carl Jung EXPOSES Why Someone Is ALWAYS On Your Mind!
Snow,
Fantastic video, thanks so much for the same. Most of it could have been written for me! More response coming eventually.
I’d encourage every limerent here to watch it. In fact, we should do a live screening of it and other bits of Jung’s work at the Amoors Inn over Giggle tea.
LaR,
I found this clip sums up (2 weeks old) what I have gone through, without even consciously aware what was happening most of the time (did not study Jungian theory until 2023) —
Glimmer made unconscious projecting the Phantom (a part of my SELF ) onto ET ➡️ LE triggered trauma ➡️ explored Stoic & IFY & Jungian theories while monologuing ➡️ vaguely realized the Phantom (- an independent “entity from ET) ➡️ separated Phantom (most of it) from ET ➡️ gradually set Phantom back within, but still with ET’s 🎭
No other Jung or Stoic related show has linked Jungian theories with limerence so closely (the presenter probably doesn’t know the term).
I’m not sure how many LwLers are into Jungian theories or individuation process; it really improves one’s life quality.
Thanks for the update LE. Glad to see this didn’t seem to disrupt your mental state too much. Plus it’s also good to see I’m not the only giving myself poor grades..
Hello IMHO. I am responding to your message here.
Going back to my LE, right up till 4 months back, we had pretty regular interactions. Of course, I got hooked to those. Then, naturally, those reduced to once a month. In the beginning, I used to “miss” her like heck, but eventually, due to reduced contact, I got used to not seeing her that often. Right now, I would really prefer to not see her at all, but since this is not possible, I will just manage the interactions, and I am now feeling much more confident that I will manage them well. So now contact will be that I am cordial and talk a bit. I am hoping my new found confidence helps me navigate this
Scouting her online was another thing I did too, now the urge is much less. If her profile just shows up on my feed, its cool, I can handle it.
As far as grades are concerned, I would give myself a C/C+.
Really hope you feel better, IMHO!
Hello ABCD,
thank you for your message of support.
I will figure it out and of course the distance and infrequency in my case should really help, but it kind of ramps up the intensity when there is any interaction.
And your story is one of great progress and I think you should be awarded at least B+ maybe even an A for effort and discipline!
Wishing you a good week.
Bewitched,
(Further to my longer reply above but don’t want top hijack that thread with psychobabble)
‘Wild stab in the dark’ since we were on MBTI – do you reckon your LO is ENTP? (Or maybe ESTP?)
LaR, Bewitched
I’m curious to know how your glimmer took place, in a few seconds or over days (while having SO around)?
Do you think which letter(s) of MBTI was at work when Glimmer strikes? Or Glimmer just shots down all letters when it strikes? To me, it did in 5 seconds or so without clearly knowing what was happening — a switch was turned on in the brain, I felt its vague “click” in every single crush.
Our brain wiring is fascinating!
Snow,
I’d explain it like this. I’ve mentioned before that I had two glimmer moments for the same person. What I’ve called a mini-glimmer over a decade ago, and then about an 8-9 year gap before the big one, in which time we became very firm friends (that happened increasingly towards the end of that timespan than the beginning).
The first one was an ‘on first sight’ glimmer where I thought “she’d be a romantic prospect / she’s got something that does something for me”, for want of better words. This was also true of my glimmers for LOs 1-3 when I look back. With LO4 (first glimmer), I didn’t analyse it a whole lot further as she had an SO at the time, and seemed very much in love with him. I was single and not actively looking (not long at all past Narc SO). I managed to forget about it.
Maybe the above one is the ‘real’ glimmer, though?
The second one had a build up. We spent a lot more time than normal together over a couple of weeks and in that time she displayed extremely caring behaviours towards me over a couple of matters. I really got to see beyond her surface T into the F underneath. It was also when the ‘Apollo / muse’ stuff started in earnest – coincidentally or not. I didn’t think anything of it more than how strong our friendship was, and then one day soon afterwards, a switch just flipped in my head like that.
I would say glimmers are S, F and P motivated, if you want an MBTI take on it. But maybe some N sitting behind the S too (Like I have said before, I think people can have strong N and strong S at the same time).
Hope that helps your inquiries!
LaR,
I think your 1st Glimmer is a fundamental one — the seed! You might have watered it if she were available back then. The 2nd one was a built up sprouting after watering of the friendship.
I killed several glimmer seed, because the other side was not available. The last one was huge, but could be at least contained “peacefully”, if Dad was not suddenly gone and Mom intruded, the dire life circumstance crystallized a big crush — limerence.
If using MBTI, S, N, F, P must be all present when Glimmer hit; N came from S, F, life experiences, and a part of the Unconscious.
Snow,
The S/N dimension of MBTI is the bit I like the least – where I find the ‘binary’ or even 50/50 idea most problematic, out of the four parts.
LaR,
Without S&N, the glimmer can’t take place, whether you like it or not.
I agree with that your “talks” here show more F in you, T only came later…
Also, S&N is outside T box, so many people dislike them, which make them feeling out of control…
Jung emphasizes N, springing from the Unconscious.
My thing about S and N is that the MBTI would have it that we are, for example, 30% sensing and 70% intuitive. This would make that person an N.
The binary classification is a problem to us both, as we said before. But that’s not my biggest problem. For S/N particularly, I feel like they are two separate ‘vessels’, that could in theory *both* be at 100% in a person (or both 20% in an extreme example). I know some people who are brilliant sensors *and* intuitives, and some who seem not to be good at either. The same couldn’t be said for I/E or J/P, which is why it bothers me about S/N especially.
I should just say to you that my formal studies in psychology don’t go far beyond a year 1 module at university, so I am not really qualified to speak on all this with authority. I have probably picked up more psychology from LwL and links posted on it than anywhere before! All I have learned about MBTI originates here.
LaR,
“My thing about S and N is that the MBTI would have it that we are, for example, 30% sensing and 70% intuitive. This would make that person an N.”
Remember I used to refuse talking here in MBTI terms? It’s just simplified. Like you said, different letter of MBTI would show in different situations or time, depending on one’s moods, or physical conditions. I can be 80% S in one day, and then 80 N in another situation. I guessed 👽’s favorite (car) color one month after meeting him , and your non-hair color, Anna’s hair length without ever seeing any of your image.
“I feel like they are two separate ‘vessels’, that could in theory *both* be at 100% in a person (or both 20% in an extreme example). “
That would be me at different times. But I feel/sense that my S leads to a portion of my N. Without S, there would not be strong N.
“I know some people who are brilliant sensors *and* intuitives”
I was strong in the both without sufficient/accurate words in either language to describe/explain them. I didn’t even know my S/N until xLO4.5 told me so. (I told him about my S/N impressions about a bunch of newly met westerners whom he knew more.
“The same couldn’t be said for I/E or J/P, which is why it bothers me about S/N especially.”
I was most troubled when my S/N tells me one thing but T/F rationalizes/feels another/opposite, then I didn’t know whom to believe/choose.
Ultimately, my “invincible” P (if not hammered enough by T at the time) would make me to lean to/choose S/N inclination —internal/external monologues to the Phantom. Life is a series of dreams, I’ll take a leap of a faith.
Hi LaR,
“At risk of attempting amateur psychology on someone I don’t know other than through written word … I detect in you that you have strong F and strong T. I say this because your posts are analytical, but also show strong regard for the recipient’s feelings. So I reckon you have a midway T-F style.”
Believe it or not, I come out as either INFJ or ISFJ, depending on the day, lol. I agree that its surprising that there is no T there. I think that I am empathetic and a bit impulsive so I act quite a lot on that basis but then I go back into my cave to ruminate over it all while recharging.
“Rather we all have thinking and feeling sides that we apply in different proportions, and we can coach ourselves or be coached to tweak how, when and in what proportion we apply them. If I am overall T, for example, I can still consciously choose to ‘apply my F to situation X’ where normally I may rely on T.”
Your point about the applying different aspects of oneself in different contexts is well made. Although I do think the ability to make that decision ultimately point more to ‘T’ than to ‘F’. I’ll have already reacted by the time the option to be more ‘T’ comes to mind, LOL!!
If I had to guess I would say LO is an ESFP. Definitely ES but I am not at all sure about the FP parts. He is empathetic but likes to leave things open, I would say, rather than have them settled. Lots of contradictions there, perhaps – the S with the P for instance.
We are definitely opposites with respect to I/E
From Wikipedia:
Extraverted are action-oriented, while introverted are thought-oriented.
Extraverted seek breadth of knowledge and influence, while introverted seek depth of knowledge and influence.
Extraverted often prefer more frequent interaction, while introverted prefer more substantial interaction.
Extraverted recharge and get their energy from spending time with people, while introverted recharge and get their energy from spending time alone; they consume their energy through the opposite process
This sums up the main differences between us, I would say. I find my LO’s extraversion a little annoying, If I am honest, 🤣 But then I think we are both F, which is interesting, and I just feel so damned comfortable around him – we basically don’t even talk at times and there is all this nonverbal communication. But now I am going off topic!
Is this the same in your case LaR? Opposites attracting? On the J/P I remember you mentioned that LO was more spontaneous (less structured/planned approach to life), which was attractive to you. I do think that the analogy of treating MBTI like handedness, something favoured and which develops through use over time, is a good one. The things we’d like to develop as part of our personality type is malleable and can be cultivated. It seems as though the I/E bit is the most ‘set’ of the aspects, but even that is a funny one because I tell people that I am an introvert and they are totally surprised! Maye the difference between the internal dialogue that we tell ourselves versus outward appearances.
Hi Bewitched,
Fascinating discussion!!
“I agree that its surprising that there is no T there”
I’m surprised too, as you seem to have a strong analytical brain. But you are right – to judge if we are F or T, we are looking at our first reaction to things – is our first instinctive thought based on our/people’s feelings, or the desired ‘T’ outcome we want?? Looked at this way, I think I may also be F. Interestingly, Sammy questioned a while ago to me whether I could really be T based on what he could tell about me.
“Lots of contradictions there, perhaps – the S with the P for instance.”
I don’t see that as a surprising combination – I can well see how S works with P as both are based on instinctive appreciation of what’s going on in the person’s immediate environment.
“Is this the same in your case LaR? Opposites attracting?”
On paper LO’s and my MBTI profiles are said to be very compatible. She is E, and her extraversion and my mild introversion feed really well off the other (same for her P and my J) to make us more powerful as a combo. Unlike you with your LO, I rarely find her extraversion annoying. It sounds arrogant but we are essentially unbreakable if we team up on something, and we never argue in a mean-spirited way yet can both take constructive criticism from the other. So in those ways yeah it’s opposites attracting (well, attracting me) definitely. We both come up N and T on the test (well, usually in my case), though she could be a secret S, me a secret F, and she might claim F too 🤣
So pick the bones out of that if you will, White-Dame Bewitched!! Utterly fascinating to me, as you can tell!
Yes, Bewitched is certainly a White-Dame to me…
Taking MBTI, I’m always INFP, a dreamer living in the world of dreams….
One cannot and should not be too serious in living dreams… I want to kill my T that can see clearly and care too much about bitter truths, which bend down one’s spirit or hurt….
I have to say, I cannot follow anymore through all the MBTI discussions, somehow I’m as selfish as not to care about personality types- somehow it doesn’t help me to know this part of my personality is doing that and the other one that, it’s still me and I have to deal with it. I’m not saying it doesn’t help other people, it seems so and I think it can be very interesting, but 1. I seem to be a different personality type every time I take a test, 2. the knowledge doesn’t do anything for me. I know I’m an introvert anyway, with a little bit of extrovert here and there. Sometimes I judge, sometimes I don’t. So what🙈maybe I’m too ignorant. But it doesn’t help me in my most personal problems at all. I don’t mean to stop you discussing! I just wondered why it seems to help other people while I don’t get any use out of it, and I just cannot chime in…
I remember Imho somewhere asking if she should wish a happy new year or not- have you done it? I think it’s a sensible advice to let him make a move if he wants and not initiate (or maybe that’s only because it resembles my own New Year‘s resolution..)
I hope you got a little bit of peace of mind!
Mila,
Bewitched kind of hit at this yesterday, but maybe it is because I am a T (thinking) type that I find all the psychological labels useful.
To me, the MBTI helps me with limerence in these ways:
1. to understand what in my personality is making me susceptible to limerence
2. to understand real and potential glimmerers – what it is about them that attracts me
3. to understand what I may be able to do (in myself and around her) to ‘correct course’ and reduce the LE, and recognise and act swiftly on future glimmers.
To agree with you a bit though, why do I need MBTI to do all that? I’m not sure. Why can’t I just say “I am attracted to spontaneous and feisty women” without using the E, P labels??
I think it might be because of the amount of cognitive dissonance I’ve had about the LE, and we no doubt all have. It can be good for me to use these letters as a means to let different parts of my thoughts / hopes / actions speak, and all feel legitimate in their own ways, even though they say different things. To ‘give air’ to the different sides.
“It just is” sometimes is not good enough for me. I will always ask ‘why?’
There is a danger to over-intellectualising it, I know.
Did you mainly ‘think’ your way out of your LEs, or did you have to ‘feel’ your way out?
Keeping clear of shiny objects??
Hi LaR,
I understand completely why it could be a helpful tool, I just don’t get it for myself. Maybe because I‘m scared to dedicate even more of my brain space to limerence. The more rumination about limerence-related stuff, the more neuronal pathways for limerence to possess my brain..
I get it why someone in the midst of limerence would benefit from MBTI. But I think even then I wasn’t that interested. My XLO sent me a test and told me his result too, and I thought that it doesn’t fit his personality very well, probably because he answered the questions according to what he believes about himself,and I think he is a bit deluded about himself- I know that sounds arrogant but I don’t know any person who avoids reflecting about himself so much, and I think he has a completely different picture about his personality than everyone around him, this being the reason why I almost gave up on this friendship and probably the source of many of his problems.
So I don’t believe much in the results of these tests, since everyone answers them how they like to see themselves, which differs mightily depending on the degree of self-awareness.
„Did you mainly ‘think’ your way out of your LEs, or did you have to ‘feel’ your way out?“
I guess my thoughts were always a few steps ahead of my feelings. I figured stuff out, why it happened or how bad it was for me, or how futile, but I couldn’t follow through until my feelings got there. To know something with your logical mind and to really GET it completely seem to be different things. I needed proof of futility or painful moments again and again until the load was negative enough to get to a tipping point. And even then I needed a new shiny object in two case, this time being the first time to be out of it without a new LE on the horizon.
I keep clear of shiny objects so far, although temptation creeps in here and there, but I manage ok- it helps definitely to let the glimmery thoughts come and pass without giving them too much weight, just not taking them too seriously or investing them with meaning (soulmate, special person, that kind of stuff), and simultaneously keeping hands still and not initiate anything.
Mila,
Well done, you sound like you’re doing well with being post-lim now.
“I guess my thoughts were always a few steps ahead of my feelings.”
See, I think they are different ways of saying the same if I say ‘my T is ahead of my F’. It’s a definite debate as to whether and why I need the labels!
Intellectualising stuff helps me sometimes. Debating all this out with Snow and Trifles particularly (and now Bewitched) has helped me realise that we are not “either T or F” (for example) but that we can apply and compare both. It helps me understand the limerent cognitive dissonance more.
“probably because he answered the questions according to what he believes about himself”
That’s a big danger isn’t it? I wonder if there is a way to correct self bias if an MBTI test is done more professionally. I’m not 100% sure what profile I am, really, for the same reason. Interesting how your xLO sees himself so differently to how the world sees him.
“The more rumination about limerence-related stuff, the more neuronal pathways for limerence to possess my brain..”
I think this too. Being on LwL has honestly been so cathartic for me as I have dealt with the emotional storm of the past year. But I know too how it can do the opposite by giving out more brain bandwith to limerence. There is a balance to find there.
Mila, LaR
Sorry that I’m cutting into your conversation here and feel urged to present my perspective on some matters.
“ My XLO sent me a test and told me his result too, and I thought that it doesn’t fit his personality very well”
It sounds to me that based on your own measuring stick, from your perspective, “it doesn’t feet his personality very well”. Do you think from his own perspective, it might just fit (naturally)?
“probably because he answered the questions according to what he believes about himself, and I think he is a bit deluded about himself”
A half of answering MBTI test is based on what one believes/thinks/feels/wishes about oneself. But some of personality traits cannot be exhibited due to social or moral codes or cultural differences, ie. French greeting kisses (on 2 cheeks) would be taken insulting in other cultures, so a French has to refrain/cut his/her greeting habit in another culture.
It seems that all limerents here have self-delusions about our own LE emotions; but we are not sure if your xLO is a limerent-type or is in limerence with you.
“I know that sounds arrogant but I don’t know any person who avoids reflecting about himself so much”
Hmm… how do you know what’s going on in his mind every minute or every hour, or everyday? How could you be so sure that he “avoided reflecting about himself”? Maybe he did, but not in your style, or not with your wished results? (You mentioned he’s so type of neurodivergent)
“I think he has a completely different picture about his personality than everyone around him”
I don’ have any first-hand information on your xLO, aside from what you told us. But one thing I know in general: there is always discrepancy, big or small, between everyone’s self image/knowledge and everyone else’s opinions/impression/knowledge about him/her, simply because everyone’s measuring stick is different.
A cliche: what we see in others does not tell what they are, but who we are; everyone else is our mirror. “Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves“ — Carl Jung
“this being the reason why I almost gave up on this friendship and probably the source of many of his problems.”
For your own benefits, you should and need to give up any unfulfilling friendship, but are you sure it is also ‘the source of many of his problems?” Is he aware of “many of his problems”? Is it possible that he didn’t think or agree with your assessment?
“So I don’t believe much in the results of these tests, since everyone answers them how they like to see themselves,”
Are you saying that “everyone” likes to delude themselves? I can tell you for sure that I don’t take any tests in this fashion.
“which differs mightily depending on the degree of self-awareness.”
Is there a standard stick to measure “the degree of self-awareness”? Who or which culture designs it?
“That’s a big danger isn’t it? I wonder if there is a way to correct self bias if an MBTI test is done more professionally. “
The same question: by what kinds of measurement (personality or culture wise), ‘self bias” could be defined and measured? Who else knows one’s Self better? Should one listens more to others’ opinions about oneself, instead of evaluating how oneself “thinks/knows about him/her self?
“Interesting how your xLO sees himself so differently to how the world sees him.”
Is anything could be more natural and logical than this phenomenon? I’m positive that how I see myself is different from how many others see me (including 👽), and I don’t and can’t care. Does anyone want to change their personality for anyone else’s, particularly LO’s sake, or grow and renew for one’s own benefits?
Hi Snow,
well, his personality type was that he is incredibly caring and sensitive to other people needs and that he puts their needs above his own etc.
If that is case , wouldn’t these other people notice that in some way? I know him for more than ten years and he is not at all sensitive to other people’s needs, not on purpose but because he cannot perceive them. As a close friend I think I can judge that.
You are right that one’s own view of a person might be as biased is theirs of themselves. In this special case of the personality type being characterized by altruism and being sensitive for others, I think there are hard facts if this is not the case. Of course there might be (and is, from my perspective too) a streak of that in him, it just cannot be his main defining feature or somebody would have noticed it.
As on reflecting himself, he himself said so. He‘s scared of finding out something he doesnt like or is difficult, so he doesn’t think about himself much (his words).
Mila,
I get your perspective and agree your assessment is correct — whether one’s altruistic has to be validated by others, not oneself!
I would not put altruism in any kind of self-evaluations, I know my mind more than anyone else, even if that knowledge is complicated, blurry, fluid and ever changing…
Hi Snow,
„I know my mind more than anyone else, even if that knowledge is complicated, blurry, fluid and ever changing…“
I‘m sure that’s also right for my XLO, but I also think he‘s special in the way his perception of how he comes across differs from how he comes across to other people. It might have to do with neurodivergence, as I suspect. I spoke to another close friend of his and his closest ex-coworker and they both have a very similar view of him and his personality to mine that differs from his own view.
That doesn’t mean our view is the „right“ one and his is wrong. His effect on the outside world is just not that what he thinks it is.
If someone prides himself at putting the needs of his friends above his own, then me, as a friend, think I have the right to say that that might be so in his head, but his actions seem to point the other way since I didn’t see my needs met.
@MJ and Coffeehouse.
I have a belated Christmas gift for everyone. I still can’t remember the poem I wrote for my former LO in high school, so what I’ve done is I’ve taken the fragments I can remember and crafted a whole new poem around them…
First up, a little humorous context. I once made my LO an offer he couldn’t refuse. Long story short: he refused. (A thousand pardons. My sick, twisted, and darkly self-deprecating INFJ sense of humour may be coming to the fore). 🙄😊
Set your minds on higher things, people. I didn’t make my LO any inappropriate offers. I just invited him to spend some time with me once, and he said he was busy. The exact words my LO used to knock me back were “Thanks, but no thanks” – a phrase I have always found quite rude. I always wanted to say the same line back to my LO. So this poem is titled “Thanks, But No Thanks”. I mean, it’s my fantasy and I’ll reject my imaginary boyfriend if I want to. 😆😆😆
The city shimmers in the heat
Of summer, beneath a blue sky.
But the scene holds no joy for me,
No memories of days gone by.
A crone cursed me on the way home:
“You are but flesh, and flesh must die.”
Yes, dear, I am dying – that is all.
The Grim Reaper murmurs my name.
And though I’ve never clutched his hand
Or looked into his eye inflamed,
Nor felt his cold breath on my neck,
I’ve witnessed his shadow on walls.
Yes, dear, I am dying, like the day,
For God deems Man to fall.
But I shall stand in gentle way
And smile a smile, and smell your smell,
Hedgerows gleaming, cornfields ablaze,
In heartfelt answer to your call.
When did I lose my innocence?
You know, I really cannot say…
Was it when Zeus chided me
For letting my gifts go to waste?
Not least my talent for poesy?
Talent I once deployed with grace?
When did I give up on my dreams?
You know, it’s difficult to tell…
Was it when Hera told me
There’s a special place in Hell
For folk too fond of solitude?
“Shyness ain’t a religion, dude.”
Your kind offer I must decline:
To wander twinned through crimson tree
While watching the wood nymphs at play,
Full moon rising over wild seas;
To trace fauns’ footsteps through dry leaves.
Friend of my youth, live long for me!
My mother is the woman who (still!) tells me I’m too shy/reserved. During my hospitalisation, a female patient scolded me for hiding my talents. In my 20s, I felt that being gay (i.e. being trapped in unrequited limerence) felt like I had been “cursed” and was doomed to live out my days as a member of “The Damned”. (I was a tad melodramatic in my 20s). “Wood nymphs” are all the girls in my LO’s life. “Fauns” refers to all the boys (straight male peers from school) who chased the wood nymphs and who were truer friends to my LO than I could ever be. The final line of the poem demotes LO from “paramour status” to “friend status”. 🙂
Amoor Inn — the house of Fellini Jr.
Scene 1/11/2025: last night dream, synchronized with DrL’s feature article of this morning — the importance of feeling at home for children (and adult children who often (un)knowingly search for the sense of totally feeling at home… ).
In a pitch-darkness with full clothes on but without a cover, I felt a pair of steady, strong male’s arms around my back. Not knowing where I was, I laid still and silently told myself: this felt safe, protected and so at home… my whole being felt that’s exactly what I had wished and looked for…
Then suddenly the curtain was pulled open, and guess who came in? — Dr L, in an appearance that resembled a bit of Prince William. He said something like it’s time to register people for the conference — LwL was having a conference in that hotel.
When peeking from the dark side of the room, I saw my gay friend was standing on Dr L’s left-hand side and putting a pale-grey and white stripe sweater on. Through the morning’s grayish light, I saw his physical shape against the wall: 173-176cm, medium built, athletic, brownish short hair, a friendly unknown face.
Standing in the shadow to DrL’s right-hand side, I heard DrL him, “What’s your name?” He said clearly, “______” (his handle name). I got startled and immediately turned to my left side, hurrying to the door — LwL ghosts were not supposed to know/see other in person; I would not let this friend see my face…
After coming out of the registration room, I got to a breakfast buffet and picked up a bit food in a plate. Then, I went down the hallway and into another big room (a half size of an Olympic swimming pool), with one round, dinner table and 12 people sitting at it.
I nervously took a look around, and did not recognize anyone. I quietly asked, “what meeting is this for?” They said ??, so I relaxed a bit: ah, it’s not LwL meeting. So I left the table and walked toward the door…
Then, Mila’s words emerged in the mind, “we are not supposed to see each other’s face, it’d defeat the purpose…. ” ‘Now, if I go out to find LwL meeting room, then I would be exposed….’
Before opening the door, I woke up — had the longest, restful sleep within last 3 or 4 months…
Then in 30 minutes, I got my synchronicity 🫢 in DrL’s blog! Thus the telling of this 🙈 dream — A part of journey treading on LwL?
The Unconscious is an alive “beast”…. 💦
Clip of the Day: “Costco Pants” – Sheng Wang
https://youtube.com/shorts/qqSo1hgssQM?feature=shared
Welcome to the beginning of your spiritual journey!
😂
Hi Dame Bewitched,
I’m messaging you down here, to reply to your kind message on Friday.
What did I do ? I sent the greeting.
I actually agree with your advice not to be proactive, however, I realised he did send Christmas wishes to me and 2 others in a group chat which I didn’t really acknowledge, so it felt like the onus was on me.
I know we can convince ourselves of any excuse to reach out to our LOs, but it kind of felt the right thing to do and I feel at peace to have done so.
He responded with perfect words of course. Still a danger zone!
I also made myself send new year messages to other people too, spread my goodwill around a bit 😄 !
And this led to having a catch up call with a friend and another with an old colleague.
So I think this is a positive outcome.
I divert my time and affection reserved for LO on other people/ activities.
That’s the plan anyway. Indeed …living my life.
And you are perfectly transferring your rescuing traits from your LO’s ADHD to us disorderly lot. Thank you
„ but it kind of felt the right thing to do and I feel at peace to have done so.“
Then it was the right thing to do at the moment! Whenever I gave too much, initiated too much etc,I knew it and cursed myself for having made that step afterwards. Feeling at peace for me is a sign to have done the right thing at this precise spot of my way.
Yes Mila, I have also been there and cursed myself for initiating too much. Many of us have done this I’m sure. It helped to come on here and work through it somehow.
I see you also shared a comment for me over the weekend. Thank you for that.
Like you I am not really able to follow all the Myers Briggs chat, maybe I will revisit it another time as it’s interesting, but I don’t want to dive deeply beyond my four letter profile.
I just know that I need to be more out there and active and a little less introspective.
I hope your dinner plans for this week are going well.
Hi Imho and Bewitched,
no, hasn’t happened, but doesn’t feel like a big deal at the moment, or maybe I’m in denial, don’t know.
He‘s here for the whole week actually, but I plan on meeting him only this one time, at most a short second time at a work event.
I‘ll report if he will annoy or impress.. my guess is, it‘s going to feel familiar after the first awkward minutes, nothing more.
And thank you for remembering ❤️
Dear Imho,
Sounds like the perfect solution, in the end. The best solution is the one you can live with later and only you know what that is. As you do not seem to be dwelling on it (especially, perhaps, because he responded nicely), then it was perfect. The even better outcome was reaching out to and reestablishing contact with old friends, of course, because this is real living and something to do more of. yet its quite a difficult thing to do without an excuse. Still, a spontaneous reach out to old friends at odd times of year is something they say to consider doing. Though we often find that difficult, for some reason (I know I do). My vibe recently has been active listening to work colleagues and others around me. Its amazing what folks get from that (or so they tell me, I’ve had grateful comments in one or two cases in the last few months).
Anyhoo, I hope the hump of the New Year baggage is over for you there, Imho (we all have this to some extent).
Also for you, Mila, with your dinner coming up. I hope he doesn’t impress or annoy too much. Has it maybe happened already?
All best to you both
B x
Thanks Bewitched,
Yes I think in this case it was right, but generally if in doubt, then not making contact is often the best advice.
I hope I can stay this way, although it’s a bit worrying how much my emotions have swung in a very short period of time.
I’m sure you are a great listener to your colleagues. Maybe you could consider to become a counsellor?
Someone I know has done that and is doing counseling on an part time basis in a specific field of interest.
LaR and Snow,
Apologies I didn’t respond to your messages last week. And also sorry if I came across a bit ill-natured to you both, that was not my intent at all.
Yes, I may have been a bit defensive for other LwL member(s) that I am fond of.
It’s no wonder I’m limerent is it ?!
I’m glad if your deep discussions are helpful to each other. My brain was struggling to follow along, due to the detail and my own struggles.
Snow,
Yes, your memory of my MBTI profile is correct – well remembered. I am very impressed.
I blame everything on it ( both good and bad), ha ha !!
Imho,
I don’t remember what you said last week that was “a bit ill-natured”.
Please don’t take seriously about us limerents typical swinging moods, ie. ranting, (self) defensive or argumentative, especially when we try to withdraw from our “drug” — LO. The withdrawing symptoms could be aggravating or depressive, which some times made me taking my frustrations/pains on some tolerant ghosts like LaR. But our discussions on other issues, ie. Philosophies, literature, psychology… really helped my mind move away from LE related matters.
Yes, you and I were once the members of the self-dissolved club, INFP. But I have some E in me that shows mostly in one-one/two interaction dynamics.
I’m glad to see that you’re feeling better after this very challenging holiday to all of us limerents…
Thank you Snow, it was nothing really.
Yes, we are similar in that INFP regard and seems several others on here too !!
I am more Extravert in 121 or small groups too, especially when I feel comfortable, then I am happy to step into that role.
In my job I have to push myself to be more E in large group situation than comes natural for me. I am sure this is the same for many others who have to put themselves out there.
That is why it’s good to choose the right job for your personality type if you have the opportunity /insight/awareness to do so.
The latest YT link you shared is a good one too. Thanks
Hi Imho,
Thank you for the message. Please don’t worry about that on my account.
I’m conscious of a couple of things – where possible not to make my posts exclusionary to others (eg by all the MBTI shorthand*) and also not to hijack others’ conversations. If there is a conversation going on and I want to take a tangent, I now try to start a new thread at the bottom. Also you made a good point a while ago to ensure the way we talk doesn’t put off would-be new posters. I am good with getting and acting on your feedback if you felt any of it had gotten outside those boundaries.
As regards said discussion where you felt defensive of your pal – Mila and I have history of chatting to each other from time to time and occasionally serving each other up ‘trickier’ bits of LE insight about that (for my part anyway) can still be good to hear. I am always grateful for her views. So I did feel it was done on both sides with that history behind us, in good spirit.
* My LE is a strange one in LwL land, being with a much treasured nearly 11 years friend and coworker**. My ‘supply’ is fairly on hand most of the time, that can’t be changed much. The only thing that can be changed is how I live with it responsibly. I fought a lot last year to calibrate it as best I could and got to much ‘steadier’ levels (a low speed dopamine drip if you like, less extreme highs and lows).
The holiday period has been challenging for me, with that drip suddenly reduced to almost zero. Dialoguing with Snow about it has been one of the ways I have kept myself sane and held myself to account in this period. The T / F thing is really just us musing on whether we are thinking with our heads (T) or hearts (F), and letting those different bits speak. It can get a bit technical I admit, but that’s all it really is. Anyway – not long now until my drip goes back on, so I am confident I can dial down my use of the LwL airwaves. I am in a better place now about it all than before my break.
** as a final thing I am aware of about my LE compared to others’, my having the constant and mostly compulsory LO supply line, versus only occasional contact (perhaps like your LE is), could seem like, and maybe is in many ways, a situation of privilege. Please believe me when I tell you it is in equal measures a blessing and a curse. I am sorry if I have overdone use of this forum lately while the ‘curse’ side of it held sway.
I hope you are doing better now. It sounds like you’ve taken some really positive actions with your NY messaging 🙂
LaR,
That’s a very considered reply, thank you, although absolutely no need to apologise.
You always bring respect, depth of thought and good spirits here as well as commitment to the LwL Coffeehouse and Inn. And you have a good memory it seems too !
And I appreciate that everyone’s LE is very different, even when there are sometimes similarities in dynamics between stories.
Some people’s situations may vary in terms of ‘privilege’ as you put it ( good SO v bad SO/no SO; good LO v narc LO; ‘on supply’ LO v far away LO etc).
Ultimately, that is all irrelevant as the altered state (which I come to realise I’m still in, sadly) is about what is going on in each individual limerents mind and the triggers and reasons within us as to why.
My only thoughts in comparison to you is if I had my LO ‘on supply’, then maybe my LE may have burned through quicker ! It must be exhausting.
Thanks for your wishes 🤞
Imho,
Thank you 😊
“if I had my LO ‘on supply’, then maybe my LE may have burned through quicker ! It must be exhausting.”
Exhausing and exhilirating in equal measure. A bit ‘spin cycle’. She is such a ‘good LO’ in almost every way which is just great limbo-fodder. There are reasons clear to me why I was / am so drawn to her.
Ever-brilliant Bewitched said something a while that gave me hope that regular lim-supply could burn it through quicker – along lines of over-familiarity changing things. My experience of the last few weeks tells me NC might burn it quicker. But it was always a fake NC (and not total, very sporadic texts), knowing it had an end point.
I don’t really know what is even a ‘long time’ for these things to burn through. We have everything on here from a few months to a lifetime!
Hi,
but I love being defended by Imho🥰!
Thanks for that. No hard feelings with LaR, of course, I even cannot remember what it was about anymore🙈
Snow, actually my test told me INFP too, alternating with INFJ (one time this, one time that).
Yes, one should probably not be hurt too much by stuff being said here because we all write in a temporary mood or viewpoint that the others cannot guess because we don’t have personal contact, but it can still sting or depress. Words are powerful, it’s not easy to dismiss them.
😘
Imho,
😘
My XLO sent me already two of them in the last weeks, but he won’t get them from me ever again, they remind me too much of the LE. I use any other Emoji with hearts if really necessary, but not this.. but you can have one any time
You’ll have to swing for me again then Mila, if you want Imho to be your white dame!!!
Hope the dinner this week passes nicely and without too much disruption.
Hi LaR,
ok, I’ll wait until my hext hormonal bout of bad mood and swing at you💪🏻!
XLO is in town, and sent a quite(for his standards, for everyone else nothing special) emotional text yesterday. Because I didn’t want to answer emotionally but didn’t want to come across terse, I offered him a practical favour instead- now I rue it because it could mean more contact than planned, but I’ll sidestep it somehow by delegating it to someone else…
When is the end of your NC, you mentioned something that it might be soon?
*next
Mila,
Yeah the NC end is nigh soon! Some lessons learned from it I think.
“I offered him a practical favour instead- now I rue it because it could mean more contact than planned”
The road to hell is paved with good intentions!!
Dear LaR,
As the end of your NC approaches I just wanted to remind you that when it comes to limerence (and in the immortal words of Radiohead) ‘You Do It To Yourself’. The more limerent reverie, the more limerent fantasy and world building, the more fantasy conversations you are having with LO; the more you’ll remain limerent. You can strip all the limerence recovery chatter back to this central tenet, which is the fact that its all in your own mind. And while external influence including LO and cantankerous family members can help or hinder recovery, ultimately it *is* in your control. That’s a great thing. So many awful things in this life are outside of our control, how cool is it to know that here is one thing you can control, although it hard and painful? Knowing this and doing everything in your power to reinforce this will help your feelings to catch up eventually. Your NC also emphasised this, so it was helpful. Getting back into contact could be helpful too as long as you reinforce helpful thoughts rather than unhelpful ones (pick from the usual ones, as needed: it’s futile ‘this is not happening’, SO is the one I chose, LO is not suitable for me, LO wouldn’t want me anyway, if LO and I got together it would not last beyond the honeymoon period which would make me sad (and many people would get hurt), LO has their down sides, this is all just brain chemistry and it not real, etc….).
Sending thumbs up and a few more digits besides!
👍🙌
LaR,
“The road to hell is paved with good intentions!!”
I managed to sort of take the offer back,
actually. Not extremely nice of me, but I really don’t want to see him more than planned. I think the danger this week is not that limerence might creep back but that I’m still not keen on seeing him and might leak that too much.
Interesting how your first meeting after NC might pan out.
Bewitched,
Thank you for reminding me of all those ideas to hold onto.
My challenge is to build a world where she’s in it (my world would be worse if she wasn’t), but so that it doesn’t slip into those fantasies and ruminations again.
I don’t know what the verdict is on NC. Part of me now thinks I could burn it out quicker with a longer NC. But it was always a bit of a false dawn, this Christmas NC, as it always had a known end point.
But that above is a question of ‘would I take longer NC if I could?’. That’s not the real question, as I can’t have it. The real question is how to build a world where she’s in it but not having a negative limerent effect. I don’t think she’s ever led me on; I don’t have a comparable incident to your one along those lines. I have nothing but good feelings and thoughts towards her to be honest. But I have to keep reminding myself that these are my thoughts towards her *as my friend*. I know her as nothing else, never have, and to think about that prospect is futile. And who is to say that all the good we can do for each other as friends would sustain if we were anything else?
I don’t think I’ll ever be able to demonise her or cut her off totally, Bewitched, unless her character completely morphs from the one I’ve known so long. It’s about finding another way to do it.
Dammit limerence is a beast to crack, isn’t it just?
To end this on a positive though – even though it has been a spiky, loopy trajectory, there has been very steady reduction in the limerent thoughts and fantasies and an increase in the more helpful thoughts for 6 months. It may not always be apparent here on LWL because of how twisty the journey is. But now it is more about continuing a journey than starting one.
—-
Mila,
It will be warm, we will be glad to see each other, etc. I know all that. Been here before. There is a deep bond there that won’t just be knocked out by the NC – things are seldom anything but warm. What *can* change is what Bewitched said – not what happens between us, but how I react, how much I (don’t) ‘let it in’.
Thanks both of you for checking in about it, appreciated.
LaR,
A penny thought: prepare that your LE mindset could still be flared up again (relapse) by this “reunion” after the NC, and if so, don’t berate yourself and get discouraged.
This is one of Stoic practices, prepare or even EXPECT the worst( definitely by you) could/would happen. Then, pick yourself up from there and keep moving towards where you want to be.
“The real question is how to build a world where she’s in it but not having a negative limerent effect.”
LE’s negative and positive effect are two sides of the same coin, the LE negative effect almost always comes after its positive one. Ergo, one can’t just get rid of one side without letting the other side go, even go first. So perhaps your question should be rephrased to, “ The real question is how to build a world where she’s in it but not having any limerent effects”❓
Typo: worst( defined by you).
Well said and rephrased Snow, thanks.
I’m well used to the loops I have to spin in. It is very educational! I will see if I can keep the ups and downs manageable as said ‘reunion’ plays out, and regroup if it doesn’t work.
Watching the Jung video I could pinpoint pretty accurately “these are the things I lack(ed) in myself that I admire in MFF” (shadow) and “this is why someone like her is my archetype” (animus) etc. Having this T understanding still needs F to catch up, but I do see it as a good sign. It focuses it more on me, not her. Then it is a case of ‘how do I nourish these bits of myself in other ways?’.
I do really see why you struggle to pull off 👽🎭 even after going through a similar process. Even if and when I nurture those bits of me in other ways, it will be difficult not to credit her with giving impetus to those processes. She has helped me be a better version of myself.
I’ve been meaning to come on here to apologize for going MIA. Besides keeping myself busy, I just haven’t felt like limerence is something that’s an issue for me lately, or something that I should mull over. I got over LO2 a long time ago. I was just hanging around here to understand limerence in general and my propensity for it. And then finally just for the great company! 😀
It’s been smooth sailing for me for some time. But to show that my mood can’t always be stable, just recently I grew frustrated with my relationship with TO. We are “playing at” being a long distance couple (one that has no plans to meet). But at some point that pretending spills over into reality and I grow frustrated. So here I am again to vent. I’m not good at taking advice, but writing and interacting on here has always helped me make sense of things.
I feel I’m close to the point I was with LO2, i.e. giving him an ultimatum (eat or get out of the kitchen, if that’s a saying) where I already know what he will have to choose. It’s not going to be easy for me to let go, because like I’ve described on here, he reaches out to me several times a day. And I’ve warned him that he is getting me – if not both of us – attached that way. I know this will create another void in my life, and I don’t have anything comparable to fill it with. (I know, “purposeful living” yada, yada… 😉)
Ironically, as I was on a short walk this morning, I listened to my 2024 most played playlist (don’t judge me! 😉). It played in this order: End of the Road, My Lovin’ (Never Gonna Get it), I Want a New Drug (the last two were on my “getting over the LE” playlist. Then when the first notes of Piano Man came on, I knew I had to pay a visit to the Inn. 😜 LaR, do you have something for me?
Hi Trifles,
good to hear from you! I actually have to run now, just a wave from me- is this issue with TO again about him not wanting to meet you in person?
Will check in later! Have a good day!
Mila, hi, thanks for checking in! Yes, I guess it’s about not wanting to meet in person, but tied to the fact that we’ve gotten drawn deeper into a “relationship” which feels like play-acting because we know it’s not going anywhere.
Trifles,
Is the pope a Catholic? The Amoors Inn operates as a room of requirement. What’s your tipple at 8am on a Friday? Are you in a Giggle Tea mood or do I need to apply for a license extension?
I may serve up some more LaRness about your dilemma later but on instinct I think your ultimatum doesn’t sound a bad idea “Eat this trifle or it’s going on the menu elsewhere mate”
Ok I’m now going to try and apply my T brain more while you sup whatever you chose.
A confession (and you probably more than know this already) is that you might detect some biases because I imagine myself on the other end of this scenario. If I really strain, I can reason out why LO would be well within her rights to cut me off for similar reasons. But it would still sting like a bastard, so I guess be mindful that this bias could creep in from me.
Here goes anyway.
How do inbetween options feel to you? That is, not a total cut but instead either a dial down to a texting level and frequency that ‘triggers’ you less, or a sort of explanation to him of how you’re feeling and a kind of ‘can we please pause this for a while?’. The initial withdrawal stages would hurt, but they get easier. The second option would force him to expand his support networks and might mean you can eventually play some role, just not such a big one (if you want to).
How would you articulate the merits of a total cut compared to the above two options?
Have you got other ways you can fill the void productively if you put your mind to it? (‘No’ is OK, I understand that from the few weeks I have just been through).
So I can assess his motivations a bit more – are his texts flirtatious, not, or in that maddening inbetween ‘grey zone’?
By the way as an aside, while you were MIA here (and it’s nice to have you back by the way 🙂), somewhere miles up this coffeehouse, your fellow ‘dessert’ poster, French Tart, wrote you a personal message that she was hoping you’d see.
Quick update on my texting situation over Christmas. I broke after just short of 10 days. Once the dam broke, it broke like normal and the floods came my way. I still really can’t square these two bits of her behaviour – ie keeps NC with me until I release it, but then releases spectacularly! It’s so odd.
LaR, good to hear from you. 😊 I was going to ask you about your temporary NC. Sounds like there were really no surprises there, floodgates and all. Good job with the near 10 days! Were the highs as high as ever after the gates broke? And how are you dealing with contact now, any changes?
Thanks for opening the inn and bringing the LaRness. I’m aware of your bias and that’s also a reason why it’s good to hear your opinion. My instinct says I need something stronger but I can try the giggle tea to start, it can’t hurt.
As for my “issue”…
I know dialing the texting down won’t work. I’ve brought it up but then he slides back into his normal frequency. You are on to something with the pause. That’s what I was actually going to suggest to him, because I don’t trust myself to be able to keep away for very long. And then it would just be empty threats from my side. (When I wrote here this morning I forgot that a break was what I had decided on in the wee hours!)
You are so much along my lines of thinking that it’s scary – I also thought that the break would make him examine why he needs to be in touch with me so much (I don’t think he fully realises it), and probably encourage him to turn to others instead. Now that I write it out, it would also encourage me to turn to others. I’m trying to sidestep the apparently unintended innuendo of eating the trifle 😆
And yes, we cover all levels in our communications. Sometimes it’s day-to-day things, sometimes flirting. I am equally to blame for that – I do enjoy flirting! There’s not been as much griping about his situation at home lately.
There really are no “infrequent rewards” – if I want my fix of attention I always get it. That’s why it will be hard to substitute it with something else. Where am I going to get that amount of attention?🙈 (Ignoring the fact that I really shouldn’t need attention from others, that I myself am enough 😉) …Where I also want the attention and don’t feel it as unwanted smothering?
Thanks for the tip about French tart!
Hi Trifles,
Sorry for delayed reply. Want one guess who is responsible?!
It scares me a bit when you say I am that much along your lines of thought. It is always a joy to chat to you, so it’s not at all for that reason I say it. It’s more that the weird asymmetry between our respective situations means that it is likely that the thought processes you go through about distancing from TO are likely ones my LO goes through about me. When breaks in personal contact come and the texts dry up, I dread that the moment has come.
But it is irrational dread. If I know one thing about LO in my rational brain, it is that she’d explain to me truthfully what was happening and why.
This is why I think that for you, honesty with TO (about any breaks or dialling down) would be the right policy. It will hurt on the other end of it but he should get why. And that’s not to say don’t do it if it’s right for you, it’s just to say do it nicely. One other thing I’d guess from planet man: especially if you are flirtatious with him, he knows what he’s doing more than you think. It might not always be rationally explainable, but we men normally (F) know what we’re doing. I think a pause could give you both some time to think about what it might look like going forward. Meanwhile keep your ‘purposely naive flirting’ in day to day life going, as you never know what pleasant surprises it could bring.
I get the position you’re in and why it’s difficult to let go but also why the urge strikes to.
You asked me about the resumption of contact. It is as warm and pleasant as ever and I have already sought her out a lot. It has been plainly obvious that she wants to see me too. It is really noticeable the extra colour she brings to my world. But where I can see the progress is that my thoughts (right at this second anyway) are more those of appreciating how lucky I am to call her my friend. I am no less attracted than I ever was. But I am well past the stage where that gets mashed up with wondering if we could be more, or worrying whether she thinks about thag, or thinking one or both of us might disclose. She must have thought about it, where those thoughts went I may never know, but so what in the end? Why would either of us want to break something that works great as it is? That’s the thought process I am trying to hold onto. It is still a case of T being well ahead of F.
Keep us posted with what you decide to do about TO.
Long Island Iced Tea coming your way and Pianoman going on the jukebox 🍹🎼
LaR, don’t worry, I would also be honest and upfront if I decided I want a break or worse. I’m sure that your LO is the same way.
Imho is right that these ultimatums come to mind at moments of frustration and one should think carefully about following through. For me, the thought passed already and there’s too much I want to talk with him about right now for me to take a break…
Thanks for your insight about him knowing what he’s doing. I think it’s partly also a game with us, and we feel safe doing it because we know nothing will happen.
“But I am well past the stage where that gets mashed up with wondering if we could be more, or worrying whether she thinks about that, or thinking one or both of us might disclose.”
That sounds very positive and healthy!
“Long Island Iced Tea coming your way and Pianoman going on the jukebox”
Sounds like that would’ve been a fun evening for me, if I had been awake. 😆
Trifles,
“Sounds like that would’ve been a fun evening for me, if I had been awake. 😆”
Tell me about it. You know I had to sit and drink it with the Lawyer, right, just so it didn’t go to waste?! And he kept wanting to talk about Briefs. It’s definitely quieter in the Inn in January. They’re all still down the gym!
“For me, the thought passed already and there’s too much I want to talk with him about right now for me to take a break…”
In my occasionally adopted ‘non-enabling’ hat (?do I wear this hat for others because I am so dreadful at enabling myself?) … while I’m glad the frustration has passed, I would still reflect on this moment for what it’s trying to say to you. Yes, Imho did suggest some great questions. I sense the frustration you feel at the kind of ‘playing at it’ will keep coming and going and maybe get increasingly often and intense. I actually do think a break might do you good, and maybe him too on some level. Maybe you will know more strongly when the time feels right for that.
I more than see both sides of it though. The fun part of these things is really fun! You should see the list of targets I had last summer for reducing contact with LO. I have failed at most of it every time I’ve tried. What I have really succeeded more at (unexpectedly to me when I made the list) is changing how my brain regards and responds to the contact, to be more net-positive and less limerent.
But as for the amount of contact – I have pretty poor resistance. I am not the sort of person that can watch chocolate bars being dangled under my nose and not grab some of them. I’m being brutally honest here, but one day my LO may feel like you did yesterday and no longer offer me the chocolate. So I’ll take some of it while I can, and enjoy it for what I can. And yes, all moral considerations are duly factored into that ‘what I can’. I can also deduce that I genuinely can’t be having a net-harm effect on her based on how she (just like me) creates frequent flimsy reasons for us to be in contact (that’s where the texting is confusing, because in person she’ll instigate many contacts based on the most thinly-veiled ‘work excuse’).
Trifles, LaR,
A stronger (double, or triple) tea is served this morning —I’ll be on the road in 5 minutes to the Island.
You’re both are pushing the Camus’ Sisyphus Stone in your LE/TE dynamic, which has its two sides, and will ALWAYS have. Not pushing it, you’d feel meaningless/void inside; pushing it aches/“floods” your body/system; and then it WILL roll back to the bottom of the hill when you think you’ve reached to the top and can stop — it is FUTILE!
So if you decide continuing, appreciate its two sides and even feel happy — everything reward in life has its price; or abort the pushing completely. There is no alternative in between in which frustration/pain is absent.
I hope you’ll find a way to ENJOY the pushing of the Boulder, Trifles.
What the name of this new mixture of tea, LaR? (I’m always improvising as a habit….)
Snow,
“So if you decide continuing, appreciate its two sides and even feel happy — everything reward in life has its price”
I am not sure for Trifles, but for me this is probably the way to go. I can’t stop pushing the stone – T can’t do it in the face of F’s power. But maybe I can learn to just be at rest that the stone will keep going up and down the mountain, as a long history tells me the pattern will just keep repeating.
Round and round we go 🎠🎡
Are you on vacation or a working trip to the island?
Oh, and I watched part 1 of War and Peace this week. Already, no question of who the limerent and the LO are going to be!
LaR,
This is still a part of my winter break (5 weeks), and my first getaway from the city (I had runny nose for nearly 3 weeks).
“War and Peace” (with over 600 characters/characterizations) is much richer than limerence affection or ordinary pair-bonding games. It’s fascinating for me to re-watch it.
Just finished 8 hours of Russian biological movie on Dostoyevsky, fascinating…. Also finished over 35-40 hours on a YT philosophy and literature channel, a cup of my addicted tea.
Cooking 3 dinners for 3 different parties in the Island… walking on the chilly beaches… bird watching and indoor gardening… staying away from internet… busy night dreaming….
Now I want to read War and Peace, which I know I have on my Kindle already. But I just finished reading Anna Karenina and started the “Presumed Innocent” series. The first book definitely describes limerence! He loves his wife but falls for his co-worker, who’s just using him, and then ends up dead. So naturally he becomes the suspect. I’m impressed with the writing, especially since the writer has degrees in both writing and law. So he knows his stuff.
SL,
Madam Bovary is a worse limerent than Anna Karenina, with her head full of romantic notions and nothing much in reality. Anna at least had an affair and a daughter with Vronsky; Emma had her romance mostly in her head, while ignoring her loving husband and daughter.
I prefer classical literature to modern ones.
I read Madame Bovary many years ago. Guess I’ll have to read it again. 🙂
Hi Trifles,
I can relate, this is very similar to the feeling I had in my last LE. We were texting so much and so much contact, but it was going nowhere since it couldn’t go somewhere. That vexed my sense of balance, but he seemed to be able to go on like that forever.
But I was limerent, and you say you are not?
If you are not, maybe you don’t need to cut him off completely? Just dial it down in stages, and tell him? And meanwhile turn to others or other activities?
Maybe you can think about what kind of frequency and intensity would suit you best and then just act as if it’s already there, and even tell him about it?
I had dinner with XLO, he‘s still in town and will probably see him shortly tomorrow, also very busy this weekend, so I haven’t really made my mind up yet what I think of it.
LAR,
It sounds a bit as if your LO made her own resolutions or rules for herself, like „never initiate“ and when you initiate she‘s glad and since it’s not against her rules she keeps texting..
Mila,
Yeah, it makes sense. But it is so at odds with her behaviour in person, when she seeks me out proactively quite a lot. I don’t have to put the hard work in to have contact usually.
But it is futile really to try and understand. The bit to carry with me is that no texts is not ever a signal of any problem. I have got better at that over time (eg a ‘dry’ weekend or even 3 or 4 days wouldn’t nowadays cause me a second thought), but this time was almost a month of no contact in person – the longest time since the LE started. I do worry if I ever find myself in your position of a more distanced and text-based relationship (it isn’t impossible that in a year’s time that could be where we are), how we could maintain a friendship if she kept a ‘don’t instigate’ stance (although this time, once I instigated the first exchange, she then instigated a couple of times in the days after that. But ten days of (purposeful on my part) total NC prior to that. I guess things will just evolve naturally. It is not worth giving these questions too much headspace I don’t think. Trifles always tells me that women might tend to want men to instigate most of the time in a kind of ‘old school’ way.
Let it out about your LO experiences this week if and when you want to, by the way. We are here to listen and not judge. You lot have heard enough of my offloading lately!
Hi LaR and everyone else!
LaR,
you sound like you are in an accepting phase of limerence, enjoying more than suffering. I guess I would just enjoy it and not give it too much headspace, focusing on other aspects of your life, family, work, other friends, so that she‘s not taking up too much of your attention and time. Maybe that’s the way to go at the moment where everything seems to go just fine and peacefully- just let the friendship flow without forcing or denying, and concentrate on other things.
Me, I had a bad night with disturbing dreams, and I think it’s because I have a bad conscience to treat XLO as I do.
I do all the motions, had dinner, offered him help here and there, send a text here and there, but I’m actually quite cool. It seems I still cannot act normal or warm. I even cannot send any texts on the line „looking forward to see you“or „it was great to see you“ (which he did twice, but I never reply in similar way).
As usual, he won’t ever ask or talk about it, but of course he notices. He gets his vulnerable face, that’s all.
I feel mean, but 1. it seems I cannot change it, something in me closed a door and keeps pressing against it to keeping closed, 2. I’m not sure if I got the wrong perspective.
I feel guilty, but actually, why? I wrote him very honest emails explaining myself including coldness and what I needed in this friendship etc, (and including what I like and cherish about him!) and although he replied somehow, he completely ignored what I wrote.
Now, this week that he‘s here, I’m being a bit strange- me in his place, I would immediately ask what’s the matter. He won’t do that, ever.
Why is the responsibility to talk and act always solely with me in this friendship? I feel like I mistreat an animal or child or other helpless being, but actually he is a grown-up with the ability to speak, think and act! He never takes responsibility.
I feel a bit miserable today.
I still think it is the right thing to reduce contact and let this friendship be a much more superficial thing. But I would like there to be no hard feelings on both sides about it, and it seems that I cannot pull that through.
I‘m a bit between perspectives-I start to feel sorry for him, because after all he was always the way he is and only because I was limerent I could have been hurt so badly by his behavior, which is not his fault, and he still wants to be my close friend in his own restricted way and is bewildered.
But then I change perspective and see him as someone who is restricted but also egotistical. He wants my friendship but only on his terms, he’s not capable or willing to change a nano-bit for me. He just closes his eyes and ears to my words and wants everything to go on like it always was, and if it doesn’t, he simply gets his vulnerable face (on which I react emotionally,like on puppy eyes), but never utters a word or tries to change something.
I can switch perspectives and views of this person like pointing different kinds of lights on him. All might be true, or none, or better, that’s how it is with every person and our whole life. Everything depends on how we decide to view it.
This morning I thought, maybe I should explain myself shortly again- that at the moment I’m not capable of being more warm, that I’m still hurt but that he should bear with me and it’ll be better in a few months, and instigate a break of texting and contact until then.
But then I think, it never did any good when I explained myself, he didn’t understand it, and/or he felt crowded and felt that I always go on about things he would like not to talk about.
That’s why I had decided not to talk about anything personal with him again because it’s futile and he doesn’t want it.
But that isn’t really in my nature! I hate this kind of dishonest smalltalk and being nice on the surface. I feel better when I can be honest.
But if I get honest again, it will be for him like I punish him again, reproach him again for just being the way he is.
That’s not good for anyone or fair either, is it?
Any thoughts anyone?
This is not about limerence any more, (I’m now safely out of feeling limerent for him), more maybe about consequences of limerence and about friendship.
I know that no one can really judge the situation but me, but I’m at an impasse, I appreciate any input – sometimes it helps enormously if someone suggests something and I realize that I don’t want to go that way at all 😆
Thanks for listening anyway!!
Mila,
I wouldn’t future-fake him, i.e
don’t say “we’ll be okay in a few months” if you can’t basically guarantee it, and don’t know what Ok looks like for you, and for both of you. It sounds like it could only be OK for you if he changed?
Trying to tell him the same things as before in your email, if you didn’t find the response satisfactory last time, feels a bit like it could be “first time, shame on you, second time, shame on me”. Sorry if I have worded that harshly.
I think you need to focus on what you liked in the friendship and what made the two of you ‘click’ before the limerence. Nothing can undo the effect the limerence had, but what was there before? I assume he still wouldn’t get deep and emotional even back then, but you must have had good ground. If I faced this situation with my LO, I’d know a few things I could suggest us doing that might let us ‘reset’ in environments or doing things we both enjoy and have enjoyed doing in each other’s company in the past. Is there anything like that open to you?
I don’t think you can move your brain on quicker than it is ready and it may not go where you want it to. It sounds quite a ‘stalemate’ for a while now.
How much of it do you think is that he *can’t* change, and how much *won’t* change? What if anything do you feel you can reasonably change to help?
I am still fascinated that you have shut the door on the limerence too. Like when you look at him or spend time with him, you don’t find him attractive at all? As much as my brain tries to put my LO in these places, it refuses to get there and my heart won’t catch up (see – said without any Myers Briggs jargon!).
Hope your low mood today is temporary.
Hi LaR,
Thanks for your quick and thoughtful answer, it means a lot to me.
First paragraph, thanks a lot! you are right, I shouldn’t promise something that seems out of my control.
“feels a bit like it could be “first time, shame on you, second time, shame on me”. Sorry if I have worded that harshly.” no need to feel sorry, especially since I didn’t quite get it🙈? You mean, it would be my shame if I do the same thing again that didn’t work out last time?
“ I assume he still wouldn’t get deep and emotional even back then, but you must have had good ground.”
The main thing that brought us together was work, I guess. We clicked very well at work. That falls away since he left.
Back then, he was a kindred spirit in work related issues,with whom I got along well privately too, but it was a loose and relaxed connection. We didn’t text that much etc, and met maybe once a month privately, mostly with families. I would like to get back to that state of friendship.
But it got all intense when he got the other job and had to decide if he leaves or not, he didn’t decide for almost a year and this year was where I got limerent and contact was ramped up a lot. He clung to me a lot too and I think he simply got used to it and would want to keep this kind of very frequent but superficial contact indefinitely, but that’s not healthy for me and I don’t want it.
Also, back then I was kind of trusting that I could talk to him like to any friend about emotional and personal matters, should the need arise, it just didn’t arise for a long time. Then this time of his leaving and not deciding etc came, the need arose and I realized I couldn’t talk to him at all. Snow said something about tests for a friendship in her COO. Friendships seldom get tested, but this got tested and could – rather surprisingly for me because I was trusting it would- not hold up.
I don’t know if it is possible to just return to the innocent and loose state of friendship after all that.
“How much of it do you think is that he *can’t* change, and how much *won’t* change? What if anything do you feel you can reasonably change to help?”
That’s the big question! Can’t he or won’t he or both to some degree? I guess it’s the latter. He can’t, but also because he won’t even begin to think about trying. I said often here that I suspect him to be neurodivergent (and many of our colleagues/friends)but he himself wouldn’t even start to get to a conclusion like that. I know neurodivergents who know that they are, and it’s easier to deal with.
And I really don’t know what I can do to change or help, other than going on taking the whole responsibility for the temperature and intensity of our friendship, and I’m tired of that.
“Like when you look at him or spend time with him, you don’t find him attractive at all?”
I can still feel the ghost of attraction, but like from the outside. The door to attraction is closed, or I hold it away from me. The light changed and at the moment I see his unattractive sides in same measure. I also feel it’s my fault to having attributed so many good and attractive things to him while limerent, and now I see I exaggerated or saw something that’s not there.
Hi Mila,
I was listening to a Mel Robbins podcast ‘Let them Theory’ and at one point I thought of you.
Maybe take a listen if you are interested, it may resonate or not. The theory is pretty simple ( she can be repetitive! )
And letting people just ‘be’ is easier said than done in reality, because we are human beings with emotions ( not Angels or Saints ! )
I just think you have done the right thing, you have shared your feelings and appreciation of him and made the effort.
If he can’t act the way you think he should, then that’s on him and not you. You just got to let him and hopefully ANY remaining feelings that you have just go because ‘you are you’ and you are at peace that you ARE a good friend to him. And he will do what he does, and be who he is, and you can’t change that. It’s on him.
I think around 35 mins in was when she talks about friendship.
https://youtu.be/d4z5C8G32AY?si=RAFQv5vYXAHibxVz
*ANY remaining resentment feelings
Mila,
Yes, you interpreted the meaning of my second paragraph right. If we have tried something before and it didn’t work, then it is wasted time and energy to try the same thing again and expect a different result.
We’ve discussed this before but here comes a bit of attempted analysis of what I think is the crux of it.
The relationship deepened because of the way you worked brilliantly together (this is true of me and LO initially too, by the way). His decision about whether to leave was therefore huge to you, and his long-term dithering about that very triggering to you. And yet he used you as emotional support about that decision (without being open and honest) for a very long time while he dithered. He did that as if it was just a decision about him, not seeming to understand how much that also affected you – professionally and then (by the time your limerence was triggered), also personally.
I said I felt it was triggering. Initially this manifested as triggering limerence. But under that it was also triggering intense annoyance. With your brain limerent, you couldn’t fully feel the annoyance. Now with the limerence removed, you can really feel it. Like a backlash.
Your brain now extrapolates the way he treated you in that situation, and how it produced a parent-child dynamic, and applies it to other (even more mundane) interactions between you two – perhaps whether it really belongs there or not.
It is like a cloud over everything else that, until pierced, will be there. You have tried to remove the cloud by upfront honest communication, yet he won’t or can’t play ball.
So how else to remove it? I think either it will go with the passage of time, or it won’t and you will have to either tolerate it or modify your expectations down (unless there are other ways you can approach communication with him that you haven’t thought of yet).
I can totally understand why it is hard to see how to return to the more innocent friendship of old times with this backdrop.
I may come up with more ideas but these involve diving into more history of my relationship with LO and how working together (moreso in the past) was similarly the trigger for deepening the friendship and perhaps also partly for limerence. I started typing an essay about that here but was rambling and will have to come back to it.
By the way, where are you on any form of disclosure to him, now that the limerent bit is firmly in the past? Are there any circumstances where you would disclose anything? Or is that a firm ‘no, never!’? I just wonder if that level of honesty is tempting to you to see if it makes any difference. Firmly not trying to steer you that way though – just interested
Hi Imho,
Thanks a lot! I will check out the podcast for sure.
Letting go is the key word, I think too, and I made a conscious effort yesterday to let the resentment go at least for the duration of the goodbye, and it worked quite well.
He is who he is, and me, I can choose what kind of friend I want to be for him, and that‘s being a good but not too close friend in the future. Since yesterday I think I can manage that from now on without the spurts of annoyance, as long as I don’t have excess contact.
How are you holding up?
Hi LaR,
thanks, you got it right on the spot, maybe with a little adjustment- I think what triggered hidden annoyance that got layered over by limerence was maybe not the main incident of his ignoring my problems with his leaving- I got it and still get it, that the whole thing was much harder on him that on me. But I was triggered by his absolutely not uttering one word of understanding afterwards, or making one step to accommodate my sufferings, when it would have been a small thing to do, and then all the small stuff that showed that he basically gives so little in terms of warmth or talking, added suddenly up a lot.
I didn’t get the thing about parent-child dynamic though?
The cloud you speak about lifted yesterday for a while and I think I’ll manage. I think to save the friendship, unfortunately I have to care much less about him and all his ways, positive or negative, and I‘m on a good way there.
„ By the way, where are you on any form of disclosure to him, now that the limerent bit is firmly in the past? Are there any circumstances where you would disclose anything?“
A firm no to that. 1. because disclosing is a potentially disruptive thing, it could do harm, and it’s not worth a damage anymore now that it’s over,
2. because this particular LO proved to be so limited in his emotional expression and views of emotional experiences that I don’t deem him worthy of a disclosure, as harsh as it sounds. I still think I won’t attempt to talk to him about any deeper emotional matters again because there won’t be any helpful reaction, he will either feel crowded or not know what to reply. Maybe I’m too negative here, but he lost my trust to tell him things.
Mila,
I might have called it wrong, but by the parent-child dynamic I meant he is often looking to you for reassurance or affirmation but not giving the same back. So for example as he sought to make his protracted decision about leaving, and when he gets his ‘vulnerable’ face on … he seems not a decisive or self-affirming person, so looks to others like you for, in a loose sense, ‘parenting’ – in a sense of affirmation or reassurance? You always have to manage the relationship, as a parent would – you feel like the ‘adult’. Maybe I have that incorrect though.
From your message to Imho, I think the way you put your strategy there sounds the best outlook to take for now.
LAR,
I think you hit it again on the right spot with the parent-child dynamic. I’m impressed. It opened a new view of it to me, thank you very much! You are great!
His parent situation wasn’t easy, I don’t want to tell much as not to be recognizable, it might have to do with this behavior pattern.
Yesterday he said something about other people always making decisions for him, and when he makes one himself it turns out to be the wrong one.
I know, it sounds like he finally started to talk about personal stuff! but only about his own. I don’t think he meant anything concerning me at that moment, and if he did, how should I know🤷🏻♀️
It is now too late for me to get interested in what he wanted to say if he doesn’t say it straight out. That ship has sailed for now.
I don’t want to be cruel. I just cannot do a close friendship at the moment and get involved in whatever problems of his, especially since he proved not to want to be involved in my problems. Of course I replied something and talked about it (that’s more than he ever did)but I cannot really care about it at the moment, he should rely on his SO or other friends now.
Mila,
Glad that take on it helped you see it in a different way (although don’t want to accidentally curdle any new resentment towards him).
I’ll take a foray into talking about my LE now, as a piggy-backing onto what you’re saying about struggles to shape the friendship at more distance.
Our friendship grew based on the same reason yours did – shared work pursuits and an ability to achieve a lot together at work by combining our abilities. Lots happened afterwards and we discovered shared outside interests and an ability to talk more personally – we have shared a fair few vulnerabilities. I would say the friendship goes well beyond work now. Apart from my SO, I feel nobody probably knows me better. I am generally guarded about emotions, but she knows how to collapse my boundaries with that (does not exploit the fact either, just knows how to ‘be there’ for me when needed).
Work plays a role nowadays in our relationship, but it is lesser. Our jobs have both moved sideways. For example we used to work in the same physical space and with close to identical job descriptions, but we no longer do. Our work now overlaps and we come together on projects etc, and we both angle for that more than we really need to. For me my limerence has partly driven that, but it is also genuinely because her working style complements mine, and we achieve better work results together than either of us does alone.
So work is still what started it, and probably the ‘bottom line’ that underpins it. I still have the question to myself of whether this friendship would withstand and feel the same if we took away its initial ‘raison d’etre’ of working together. And it is a real prospect that in another year or two, one or both of us will move on workwise.
I read about what has happened between you and xLO and do wonder if LO and I would do any better if we didn’t work together anymore. I do think that both of us can talk about emotions and be honest, so that gives me some hope. I never feel like there is game-playing. But her texting is sporadic and weird (the worst bit of the friendship for me). And working hours conveniently give me the time and opportunity to see her, while allowing me to rationalise and compartmentalise it (rightly or wrongly).
One thing I have decided is that I am not going to instigate a disclosure unless one of two things happens. The first is if she ever discloses anything like that to me, or challenges me about what my feelings are – if that happened, I would disclose (not ‘limerence’ per se, but attraction) – I won’t lie about it. The second is if I feel at any point in the future that the friendship has gone rotten and that the ‘feelings’ side is somehow the cause. I will disclose then, because it leaves me little to lose and potentially could help. But I would only do that one once we are geographically separate, as it is too risky otherwise. And only then if the friendship didn’t withstand the change.
That’s why I asked you earlier about disclosure – but I get the reasons why you wouldn’t.
There is so much wrapped up in all this stuff, even just the friendship side, isn’t there?
Hi LaR,
what you write about your work relationship and friendship is completely relatable for me.
It’s an interesting question how everything would pan out if your work relationship would be out of the picture.
I think a lot of my friendship with XLO was fueled by casually being together all the time at work and work trips, in this environment we got along very well without any effort required like making dates to meet or texts or phone calls to keep meeting each other, we met anyway at work.
If you two wouldn’t work together, the casualness wouldn’t be there, you would have to text and phone and organize get-togethers, and maybe that would change something in your relationship too?
I think while you are lucky you can talk to your LO about everything, that cuts both ways- it’s a blessing and a curse, because everything gets so much more dangerous, so to say. I‘m angry at my XLO because I cannot talk to him about all that personal stuff, but if I’m being really honest, I should be very glad, because that is what pulled me out of my limerence.
If he really would be that sensitive caring LO, who knows what might have happened in terms of disclosure, temptation etc.
About disclosure-
If he would have asked directly, I think wouldn’t have been able to lie completely, there would have been some kind of disclosure, I guess. Definitively if he had disclosed himself.
But he’s not the type, and I get more and more to the view that I should actually be thankful that he is limited and cannot express emotions. I wouldn’t be out of this LE now. Maybe that’s more important in the long run than having this sensitive friend I learned I haven’t got…
In your case, I would definitely keep in mind what a disclosure would mean, with consequences. Of course every limerent dreams of mutual disclosure. But what then? There will be a knowledge and relationship that needs to be hidden, or disclosed to SO, and both is a strain on your main relationship, and on your friendship too. It can never be undone, and it will change a lot between you forever.
Don’t take that step lightly, even if she challenges you on that.
I would wish very much that you can keep this friendship intact! Maybe you won’t need all the upheaval I had with getting annoyed and hurt and distance myself and dialing the whole friendship down- it seems I needed that, but I would love it if you could do better and be spared all that $%#*..
Mila,
Thanks, yeah a lot of that rings true. I think with the casualness gone, reliance on texts, and no work ‘excuse’, there could be drift. Not total, but things do change over time naturally. It would be more difficult as well with SO, because so much of my contact with LO is based around work. To find reasons to see her outside of that would be harder (I have already declined several of those).
I think you’re right that is easier to end the limerence with an unemotional LO like yours, but maybe not as good for the friendship side. Uncertainty and games may fuel limerence initially but the novelty would wear off for me. Over time, I feel it is because I get ‘rewards’ from interacting with her, that it fuels it more and keeps the limbo going.
Thanks for all you said about disclosure, its consequences and the fact it can never be undone, and how it produces a whole trail to cover. Nothing is remotely imminent there. I have come far with this compared to the first day I spoke on LwL when I had all my disclosure wording written out ready to rehearse. The stories of others who had disclosed helped pull me away from it. Really, today I was just musing about whether I would ever disclose one day, once circumstances change. The biggest challenge in among all that would be what to do if she ever did challenge me about it or disclosed anything of her own.
Glad to see from your other messages that it has all settled down in your mind quite fast.
LaR,
Been following this thread somewhat so I hope you won’t mind my 2 cents.
With a former Co-Worker at my last job whom I was seeing for awhile, I disclosed early on and thought it would help. Most of the time she allowed me to flood her inbox with my love-bombing type messages, which were drenched with adoration and desire. Now when I look back and read them, they ooze with cringe and disgust. I was truly out of my mind and desperate for her acceptance. Assuming since she never called me on it, just soaked up all my praise and attention like a sponge. Overall it did very little to improve our situation-ship (as it was). Most of the time, she flaked on me when it came to hanging out. (I still think she was bi-polar) When both of us switched and got different jobs, I figured at best, that would’ve moved the needle between us, but it didn’t do anything really at all. I ended up getting friend-zoned and her Christmas presents sat in my house for a year and a half before I ever gave them to her.. So what happened next?
I fell deeper into desperation, sadness and mid-life and just so happened to see my cute little LO at work one day. The rest is history. That was early 2022.. What a terrible roller coaster ride I’ve been on.
Now 2025 and my slight mishap-of-disclosure to Lady Friend hasn’t helped me much either. True it is something that cannot be undone. I don’t think it’s something she despises me for, but as she worded to me in a txt,
“MJ, you’re putting a lot on me right now”
I think it says enough. Our dynamic has changed but it’s still a work in progress. I say at least now she knows. Somewhere I think it rests in the back of her mind and it gives her a slight ego boost. Knowing I’m somewhat still wrapped around her finger.
Like the consensus of many here already stated, I recommend not going down the disclosure route, but your reasoning for ever considering disclosing doesn’t seem all that terrible either.
Proceed with caution friend..
„I think you’re right that is easier to end the limerence with an unemotional LO like yours, but maybe not as good for the friendship side. Uncertainty and games may fuel limerence initially but the novelty would wear off for me. Over time, I feel it is because I get ‘rewards’ from interacting with her, that it fuels it more and keeps the limbo going.“
I don’t think he is unemotional , he does have those emotions, but he cannot express or even name them, they express themselves in illness, for example. He never plays games, that wasn’t the problem. But there was lacking what you call „rewards“ because he never „gave“ me any of his emotions.
The urge to disclose was only there for me when I was still in this limerent feeling that there would be deep understanding of each other, of a very special connection. This feeling might not be completely wrong, but also not completely true. She‘s bound to view your connection in a different way, also to expect other consequences of disclosure than you etc., and the real factual world with SOs and work relations is still out there after a disclosure…
But you got my exaggerated warnings the first time, I guess;)
With a friendship like yours, you would probably find ways to stay connected outside work, but it would take on a different quality, I guess your SO would come more into the picture, wanting to meet her etc? Which doesn’t have to be a bad thing! (If you really want to end the limerence;)
But it seems at the moment everything is peaceful and everyone is ok, so maybe just go with the flow and enjoy it?
I had a weak moment of concern yesterday where I wanted to tell XLO a bit more encouraging words about what he said about his life and considered a voice message or similar, but meanwhile he sent one of his superficial Instagram-like texts, and I gave it up again, thankfully. I think its best for me not to get any closer to him for a while.
@Mila,
Just to clarify, I didn’t mean to imply that your xLO plays or played games – I don’t believe he did from all you’ve said. At that point I was just talking about what might increase or reduce an LE for me.
@MJ,
Ok let’s talk disclosure.
I think it depends on the circumstances, the expectations and how it is done. I don’t know those for you with LF yet. Sometimes the desire to disclose can just feel overwhelming / overpowering, right?
In my case, going against it is all that Mila said and I repeated above. That is all top of my list for why not to disclose. Plus, for me, there must be a special kind of hell reserved for what LO might hear as implied: “I like you, just not enough to change the course of my life and be with you instead of with SO”.
Ok, as we are among friends, I have gone off into fantasy reverie at times about whether I *would* actually want to take that course. But that would have to be a route I was fully committed to before disclosing. And I could well find it wasn’t even a route open to me from her perspective.
But then I do have a number of pro-disclosure arguments (besides the desperate wish to know if it’s reciprocal). Don’t worry, they are firmly trumped by the “don’t do it” arguments. But here they are all the same. Some seem to follow your logic:
1. To disclose is to be truthful and present the person with full facts (from our side) about what is happening in the background of the ‘friendship’. To not disclose is to deny them that, and on some level to ‘fake’ them in the friendship.
2. To not disclose if challenged or if they disclose to you is lying. And lying in a direction that could make them feel bad or doubt their judgement.
3. If they’re smart and attentive, they have probably already figured it out or suspected it anyway.
4. To disclose potentially gives an ego boost, especially if we use nice wording to do it. The “put a lot on me” bit is only really accurate if we disclosed in expectation of anything. If we accept whatever answer they give, and give them a bit of space to process it, I am not sure it is so bad.
Here’s the other bit that bothers me though. I don’t know if this is anything like what you find yourself going through with LF? To disclose casts doubt in their mind about what in the friendship previously, on our side, was somewhat fake or driven by an ulterior motive. Though this could be balanced by the ‘be transparent now’ one from my list … it is, apart from my relationship with SO, the single biggest reason I have never disclosed anything to LO.
Is anything among that a factor in how things are for you two at the moment?
Snow,
Thank you, that’s a refreshing point of view. I really shouldn’t push the rock so hard, but it’s what my mind naturally does: “… But where is this GOING..?” 😅
But like I’ve said, so far the while thing has been net-positive, so I really don’t have that much to complain about.
You mention strong, “triple” tea and going on the Island in the same sentence. So the name of the drink must be Long Island ice tea! 🙈
Mila,
Thanks for your advice, it does sound quite similar to what your situation was. “That vexed my sense of balance, but he seemed to be able to go on like that forever.” Oh yes, absolutely!
And no, I don’t show any of my typical signs of limerence: obsessive thoughts, trying to impress him by adopting his interests, getting riled up by something he says, etc… Just this occasional frustration.
And what you suggested: gradually dialing down contact and being transparent about it: telling him what I prefer – is exactly what he proposed to me the last time I raised concerns. He’s annoyingly rational in that way. But I just couldn’t say or didn’t know what I want! (Women… 😂)
That’s good that you are keeping busy on your end. My frustrations increase when I don’t have enough going on in other areas of life to keep my mind busy. An idle mind is the devil’s playground…
I’m still contemplating suggesting that break.
Trifles,
You get my point: don’t push the rock too hard but enjoying pushing it, even if it goes nowhere. A bit of pain makes it dualistic “fun”!
The drink Is called “Cape Cod” or Cape Codder”.
„gradually dialing down contact and being transparent about it: telling him what I prefer – is exactly what he proposed to me the last time I raised concerns. He’s annoyingly rational in that way.“
So, if he‘s that sensible and rational- why not propose 1. a break and 2. dialed down contact after that?
I‘m dialing down contact too, but only by myself – I had my say in my emails about the frequency of our contact, but I don’t think he got it (or ignored it), and since he is incapable of real talk, I dial down only from my side, and feel a bit mean, so be glad that you can actually talk to him about that!
Can you remind me why nothing is possible between you two? He has got an SO, doesn’t he?
(I answered you and it spiraled into a full essay/rant about my mixed feelings about XLO this week that he is here, but I’m very glad that I accidentally erased it. I should let the week end first and then let it sink in a bit. )
Hello Trifles, welcome back.
I know you are not keen on advice, but maybe taking a break would be good, just so you can reflect on what you want for yourself.
Giving ultimatums can seem right in the heat of the moment, but there is maybe then no going back. I know this well !
Do you want him in your life long-term ?
Is he a genuine positive force for your well-being ? (a real friend?)
What are the minimum terms you are willing to accept for maintaining contact without compromising your wants, values and happiness ? ( No breadcrumbing )
Is this TO relationship limiting you from seeking love and connection with other friends and an SO?
Obviously, these random questions from me are just for you to consider(or not! ) and not to answer here 😊
Imho, you have very good questions for me to consider! And yes, I think he is a positive force in my life and a real friend. But as he is (geographically) distant, I could surely manage without him. (Sorry if that sounds cold…) And I’ve kind of been expecting our contact to wane at some point (like it did years ago). I think I might have been the one responsible for us losing touch last time. We might be slightly different people now, or at least in a different stage of life, which allows us to appreciate each other more..? I’m just guessing.
Mila,
“Can you remind me why nothing is possible between you two?”
Yes, he has an SO who has checked out of the marriage. But he wants to continue co-habiting and holding onto some kind of hope, for the kids’ sake. Even if they did part ways, he lives too far away for anything except occasional visits.
As for your xLO, it sounds like your frustrations are momentarily brought to the surface while seeing him. And they might just as easily recede once he is out of sight again. Like waves at sea. You are probably lucky that he moved away. To me at least, it sounds like a relationship where the distance would do its job over time..? Since he won’t be able to keep up an emotional connection. (Although like you said, he could forever be using you as his Instagram!)
Hi Trifles,
yes, this kind of aversion comes and goes a bit like waves, and yes, distance and time will do their thing, you are absolutely right.
Yesterday I managed a decently warm goodbye without feeling this resentment, I could look at him and like him in a normal way again for this quarter of an hour.
I’m glad about that, and hope I can keep it at that level. About being his Instagram, he‘s already sending less stuff, and I think now that I might get rid of this resenting feeling, I will just react nicely with Emoji or something, but very seldom send stuff like that myself, and it will dial down naturally.
„Yes, he has an SO who has checked out of the marriage. But he wants to continue co-habiting and holding onto some kind of hope, for the kids’ sake. Even if they did part ways, he lives too far away for anything except occasional visits.“
Ok, I kind of get why he might depend on you more than you on him, being in that kind of „fake“ situation. I would be interested in the answer to Imhos question if you think your intense contact might hold you back from seeking a serious connection with a real SO (that’s of course if you want one), by providing you with some fulfilled needs, and if it holds him back to move on from his marriage?
But don’t answer it if you don’t want to, it’s just what came into my mind, too..
Have a lovely Sunday!
Mila, thanks – that’s a very good point about me keeping him back from moving on from his marriage. I don’t think I’ve yet thought of it exactly like that! If I kind of keep his days bearable and provide a respite from his sh!tty situation, he won’t feel as much need to leave that. I’m not the only thing keeping him together, of course, he has a very active social life. But in a romantic sense, I’m fulfilling some needs and he won’t feel the need to go looking for it.
For myself, I don’t feel like he is holding me back. But I don’t have such a social life where I would meet available men. And I’m not interested in going on apps, for now. But hmm… If I didn’t ‘have’ him, would I get interested..?
It sounds like dialing down contact is happening naturally for you. Re: “Instagram”, that’s a positive development! I don’t always react every time he sends a picture(s), even with an emoji. He doesn’t seem to mind. 😀
Imho’s questions might be good ones for you to (re)consider at this point as well – not the last question, but these:
Do you want him in your life long-term ?
Is he a genuine positive force for your well-being ? (a real friend?)
What are the minimum terms you are willing to accept for maintaining contact without compromising your wants, values and happiness ? ( No breadcrumbing )
By the way, I didn’t quite get what was meant by breadcrumbing in that context?
Hi Imho,
well, I want to add that I don’t think it’s your full responsibility if you hold him back from moving on, it’s mainly his, or better said, to decide for him that it’s better for him that you end contact, might be a bit patronizing. You could point it out to him, but a decision to cut contact should have mainly reasons for your own wellbeing. (Not that I think you planned something like that, I just don’t want to be misunderstood..)
„Do you want him in your life long-term ?“
Yes, I would definitely like to keep him in my life as a friend longterm. We have so much history together.
„Is he a genuine positive force for your well-being ? (a real friend?)“
Well. He can be if it’s about work, and about nice superficial stuff, and I have his genuine affection and am very important to him, but I‘d say for a real close friend he‘s out of the race after all this ignorance of my words/needs.
„What are the minimum terms you are willing to accept for maintaining contact without compromising your wants, values and happiness ?“
Less Instagram-like contact, not being taking for granted and being expected to remember minutiae of his life, generally warm contact but not too often. To have him as a friend somewhere in the suburbs of my life but not in the capital, so to say? Not very reflected answer, but all I can up with at the moment..
Thanks for caring!
Mila, this was Trifles you replied to, not Imho. 😉
But yes, I wouldn’t make choices “for him”. It was still good that you pointed out the perspective you did, because I hadn’t really thought about it.
For the moment, I just have a need to air out my frustrations. (And luckily he’s a pretty good recipient for these frustrations – or at least he doesn’t get upset by them.)
It’s like one of those impulses we have in limerence: to make sense of things or to move things along – in any direction, just to get rid of the frustration.
I just recently wondered if us limerents are more – or less – impulsive than the average person. (There could of course be no correlation) Because (previously) I have often felt impulsive in my frustration / cognitive dissonance. Perhaps we are even less impulsive, because otherwise we would disclose and the situation would dispel itself somehow..? Instead we drag along in our limerence for months or even years…
Yes, Mila’s message was for Trifles (not me) 😊
Best wishes to you too Trifles.
(My term on breadcrumbing was meant in relation to the future if TO may keep you hooked but no real desire for a relationship even if you want one) TBH, I’m not that down with these type of terms, so maybe I should keep away from them 😊!
You said “I think he is a positive force in my life and a real friend. But as he is (geographically) distant, I could surely manage without him”
well, that is excellent! I need to subscribe to this for myself too.
Oh I missed that message, sorry!
Of course I meant Trifles, I think I wrote Imho because you quoted her questions to you and I was already thinking about them…
I think I’m not that impulsive, I think that limerent frustration and pain are simply very strong things and the mind tries to alleviate them. Don’t know really, though.
Long distance is a blessing concerning LOs, isn’t it? Or is it?
I wish you a pleasant evening- I’m horribly tired, will go to sleep..
I bumped the message so you would see it Mila 😀
“Long distance is a blessing concerning LOs, isn’t it? Or is it?”
I can only guess you are right, a long distance is a blessing compared to others stories of day to day contact (Speedwagon always comes to mind on this situation).
But the limited time when you meet a long distance LO is just so intense and bittersweet that it hurts so bad afterwards.
Get some rest and sweet dreams Mila and everyone
Mila,
“I think that limerent frustration and pain are simply very strong things and the mind tries to alleviate them.”
I think you’re quite right on that!
Imho, thanks for bumping up the message. 😊
I had a good exchange with TO. He understands my need for a break but still doesn’t quite “get it”. I’m undecided what to do.
Sweet – limerence-free (a caveat is always needed!) – dreams all on this side of the pond!
Hello everyone. Sharing an update on my LE here. I have been feeling pretty good with regards to LO in recent times. However, there was some interaction, and I seem to be little down because of that. This is interesting, since earlier, I used to feel elated during such interactions.
It feels like this is what my life is going to be now. Feeling decent when there is NC, followed by some setback when there is contact. Its like the limerence ember is alive, and it gets kindled during contact. I don’t think I feel depressed, but a little sad. Don’t think I can do much here, but just ride out these episodes.
Thanks for listening.
ABCD,
it still sounds like progress to me. When there’s no elation, there’s no „reward“ as just came up in my discussion with LaR,and this will help letting it all die down long-term. I actually recall that feeling of sadness. Maybe it’s just a sadness of goodbye to that limerent episode?
Thanks Mila. I can feel the reduction of intensity of my emotions now, so thats gotta count. You are right, the sadness may be due to saying goodbye to this LE.
Plus as MJ said, this is a step in the right direction.
Baby steps ABCD, but it’s a move in the right direction. Keep riding it out.
Thanks for the update..
Thanks for the support, MJ. How are you feeling now with respect to your LE?