The time has come for another open house discussion thread in the LwL Coffeehouse.
This week, I have a specific topic on my mind.
I first started this blog after a bad limerence experience of my own. I had become limerent for someone I didn’t want to be limerent for, and so was dealing with the emotional storm of conflicting desires.
For me, the priority was how to get rid of limerence.
A lot of readers find themselves in a similar situation, and I kind of think by now that I’ve got them covered.
We have a load of free resources on how to make sense of limerence, overcome it, and find a path to freedom. We also have a paid course that focuses specifically on the problem of getting out of the altered state of mind of romantic obsession, quickly and efficiently.
However, not everyone who visits living with limerence is looking for such specific help in ending limerence. In fact, they don’t even necessarily want it to stop.
In some cases this is understandable, because mutual limerence is a wonderful way to start a romantic relationship if you are free to do so, and self-aware enough to know the potential dangers.
In other cases, the motive is not quite so pure. Some limerents know that their person addiction isn’t good for them, but they also aren’t willing to abandon it completely. Like many other behavioural addictions of the modern age, we want to find a way to indulge a bit, but not let it take over our lives completely.
Instead of wanting to eliminate limerence, many people are just curious about what it means for them and their love lives.
They might be struggling to cope with the emotional onslaught, but want guidance on how to manage it, rather than taking the definite decision to end it.
They don’t want to be mentally deprogrammed, they want to know how limerence affects their judgement, why they struggle to regulate their emotions, and how to make good choices when seeking a romantic partner.
So, I have a plan to develop some tools to help limerents in that position, starting with a new “Quickstart Guide” on how to find love as a limerent.
Here are a few of things I’m planning to include:
- Love, lust and limerence – how are they different and how are they linked?
- How to spot the glimmer and what it means
- Figuring out what you want from love
- Finding healthy love as a limerent
- “Bottling the lightning” of limerence
- How dating culture affects limerents
- How to deal with game playing, ghosting and situationships
- How to find out if your date is a limerent or non-limerent
- Signs your obsession is getting out of control
- How to escape when you are in too deep
That’s the plan, so my questions for the coffeehouse are:
- Would you find such a guide helpful?
- If you have learned important lessons from your own limerence adventures, what would you add to the list of need-to-know info?
- If you are in the target audience for this guide, what else would you like to know?
All feedback much appreciated!
DrL,
I recommend you add how to determine if you might be a limerent and a cursory introduction to attachment styles.
I know enough about statistics and compulsive behavior that I avoid casinos. I don’t think gambling would become a problem for me but it’s not worth putting it to the test.
So I was watching this video on youtube and the title was “Are you attracted or are you activated?” That if you have an anxious or avoidant attachment, how do you look for something that isn’t activating your “stuff” in an unhealthy way (feeling anxious, uncertain, having to dance around to win the person over all are bad signs; that’s activation).
More broadly, how do you experience a NON-Crazy Town level-10 attraction? How do you not run from that when you’ve always chased it?
I think that needs to be a big part of this guide. A limerent-level attraction/obsession, for most people, is a bad sign. I know it sometimes works out, but, let’s be honest, usually it doesn’t.
How many posters on here were limerent for their spouses? I’d say … maybe … 10%. 15% ?
But I was limerent for my SO and the memory of those glimmery, heady days carried us over not a few difficulties.
For me, there has to be a glimmer at the beginning, and a level 10 attraction, why not. It’s how glimmer and limerence deteriorate into obsession later on if there are obstacles etc, that’s when the hell starts, but me, I need glimmer and huge attraction for the beginning of my relationships. They are not the bad part or the reason why it gets bad. Unsorted needs and insecurities on my side are why it gets bad.
Mila
I was about to reply saying that with my SO, there wasn’t a Limerent glimmer. But then I read on, and you know what? You are repeating your habit of being bang on!
Is it the glimmer that’s the problem? Or is it what follows that’s the problem? Brilliant, Mila!
Dr L – where does the distinction lie? Is there a difference between the glimmer that leads to us all here becoming miserable, and the spark that goes on to form marriages of 20+ years?
Jmmo
Mila,
“For me, there has to be a glimmer at the beginning, and a level 10 attraction, why not.”
I thought that, too. But my last LE has me rethinking how crazy chemistry is just that … chemistry. Hormones. Lust. Doesn’t mean it will lead to a satisfying relationship. Or that I need to go to the ends of the earth chasing it.
Also, I think expecting a level 10 is too high a bar. I’ve experienced it a handful or so of times in my life. And I would not have been compatible long trem with any of those people. I dont think this is uncommon. Chemistry can blind us to who the person is.
🔥 🍊 🍷,
Without knowing what Glimmer is, all my previous romance episodes, short or long, began with a huge Glimmer, at degree of 8-10, no exceptions!
But all previous relationship/connections did not slip into LE’s negative 3rd-5th stage, simple because all the men were legally/socially available (besides other social barriers) and I got either physical or mental reciprocation within maximum 1.5-2 months. Only failure of a normal dating/relationship followed.
Now totally out of limerence with 👽 (who can know it better than myself 😊 ), I think that Glimmer still needs to come at beginning of a potential relationship, but it does not need to be (or should not be) grade 10, but grade 6-8 would do. The rest of grade 2-4 could be built through “conscious intension” and actual, mutual efforts if the other side emotionally/mentally reciprocate and agree to build together a possible connection. I think 🍨 is doing it now, right?
Take it easy in your present stressful work setting, it will be over soon…. 🫂
“I think that Glimmer still needs to come at beginning of a potential relationship, but it does not need to be (or should not be) grade 10, but grade 6-8 would do. The rest of grade 2-4 could be built through “conscious intension” and actual, mutual efforts if the other side emotionally/mentally reciprocate and agree to build together a possible connection. I think 🍨 is doing it now, right?”
This is exactly what I’m saying. Personally, I wouldn’t go below a 5 or 6. But it doesn’t need to be a blazing inferno where you can’t think straight.
Can be a smaller glimmer. Like a crush.
Totally agree.
I follow this one dating coach who says you’ll be a lot happier in the long run with a level 7 chemistry/10 compatibility than a level 10 chemistry/3 compatibility. I used to argue with that idea (being a chemistry jumkie), but let’s be honest, chemistry dies. Or at least fades considerably.
And particularly if you’ve had childhood trauma, the people you feel level 10 chemistry for are usually … uh … like your parents.
It’s the Creator’s sick joke on humanity. 😀
With a childhood trauma, I would say that people you feel level 10 chemistry is someone who you subconsciously feel (not true usually) could undo/correct the childhood wrongs done by trauma inflectors or meet the childhood unmet needs from her/his parents. But as my cptsd therapist pointed out, once passing the critical childhood stage, no one else in the rest of one’s life is able to fulfill that impossible mission, except by oneself, one’s mature SELF authentically parenting one’s selves!
Your dating coach is right. For today’s multicultural and diverse ethnic society, I think level 5-6 chemistry with 7-8 compatibility could possibly work together for a potential relationship, providing a must-shared compatibility — an open and appreciative mind with almost insatiable curiosity about ever evolving life and people.
“I would say that people you feel level 10 chemistry is someone who you subconsciously feel (not true usually) could undo/correct the childhood wrongs done by trauma inflectors or meet the childhood unmet needs from her/his parents.”
Yes, and if you are subconsciously picking people like your parents, you’re just repeating the pattern. Or the bad childhood dynamic.
🍅,
“I think that Glimmer still needs to come at beginning of a potential relationship, but it does not need to be (or should not be) grade 10, but grade 6-8 would do. The rest of grade 2-4 could be built through “conscious intension” and actual, mutual efforts if the other side emotionally/mentally reciprocate and agree to build together a possible connection. I think 🍨 is doing it now, right?”
Hmm… I can’t really quantify what the grade would be with current beau (such a nice word). I mentioned that he’s not my usual physical type, but on the first date there was some fairly intense chemistry (or something I couldn’t quite put my finger on) that kind of took me aback. Later I realised that he reminds me of an old ex, who I also didn’t think was my type at all… But who I nonetheless had pretty great chemistry with.
Neither guy “glimmered”. For me, the glimmer is an instant recognition of “Oh man, I may be in trouble…”, which usually occurs when the guy is just my type (not just appearance but demeanor as well). So in my definition, the glimmer is either there in the beginning, or it’s something else (attraction, chemistry) that builds over time, i.e. not classified as a glimmer. The term “glimmer” I think I reserve for limerence.
🍨,
Thank you for telling me the more details about your present dating feelings.
I understand what you’re saying between “glimmer” and “intense chemistry” and believe attraction could be built over time and two parties’ mutual efforts. But Glimmer can’t be cultivated with time, it’s either there, or not there.
For me, glimmer is literally felt a “click” in my head, normally not loud, but I did feel the “switch”. Then, my mind is instantly shifted to the GO— Glimmered Object. I had some chemistry (more of sympathetic feelings) towards xLO5/fwb (from a dating app. not my type)and tried to cultivate the missing glimmer, but never succeeded over years.
Based on your description, I feel you’re on a right/healthy romance journey, better than any form of limerence. Keep enjoying the journey itself, and let go any possible outcome…
🫂
I agree, for me the glimmer term is binary, a switch that flicks. It can’t be “a bit glimmery”.
Just my perspective.
Otherwise it’s just attraction that can grow with time.
DrL. wrote once “…..the nature of this limerent glimmer is distinct from simple attraction. When meeting someone especially beautiful or athletic or famous, for example, one also often feels nervous, tongue-tied and “over-aroused” in their presence. This is different. The glimmer feels more personal, more significant, and more charged with emotional power – as though the atmosphere has suddenly electrified.”
Wonderful to read your romance blossoming Trifles. Really lovely that you shared. Enjoy it all and demand flowers be delivered to you every day ! Ha ha !
“if you are subconsciously picking people like your parents, you’re just repeating the pattern. Or the bad childhood dynamic.“
Now, after learning from LwL, I could clearly see that in my last LE, I had repeated the childhood pattern with both Dad (positive) and Mom (negative) in one LO in two time phrases:
In the first half (4 yrs), consolation/ comfort/ calmness/ stability… like w/ Dad; in the 2nd half (when xLO’s LO appeared, 3yrs), mixed/added with agitation/ jealousy/ anger/ abandonment/ distance/ indifference/ despair… like w/Mom
During the lengthy LE, I sensed and knew the first dynamic more consciously, but never expected/saw that the same LO could actually represent narc Mom (he’s no narc in any other ways). Then DrL’s concept of “Sensor” solved my puzzlement.
It took another year and a trip to COO to completely take back or set up a fundamentally needed, self-parental role in my subconscious.
Then, xLO appeared just as an insecure, flawed man (still much more amicable, agreeable, and helpful than Narc Mom). Even if he were available, I would not want to get together with him, I can’t trust and respect a Sensor’s fidelity.
Now, when LE is totally over, I just feel neutrality and peace. I can see/review the LE’s light and dark sides without emotional charges/colors. It’s like recalling a long dream….
I think for most of my boyfriends and crushes, I didn’t always glimmer immediately; usually it would grow over time. Sometimes I wasn’t even all that attracted in the beginning, either, but they’d turn into a crush that went on for years. Some of them went badly, but some just burned out because there was no reciprocation; there was nothing actually wrong with the guy. And some turned into LTR.
Serial,
“I think for most of my boyfriends and crushes, I didn’t always glimmer immediately; usually it would grow over time.”
This is what I’m talking about.
My college LO walked into the room the first time I met him and I was floored. That’s an over the top response to someone I hadn’t even talked to — and could barely talk to in the beginning. He made me so nervous.
Totally different than finding some guy kind of cute and getting to know him a little bit and … him getting cuter over time. Because you actually like his personality! 🙂 (And at the end of the day, I didn’t like my college LO. I was just fixated on him.)
You have absolutely nailed this point Mila, as have all your other repliers. The glimmer itself is never the problem – it is when it is ‘frustrated’ that it becomes a problem (?or heats up too fast?).
Like you and others have said, many relationships fail later but that doesn’t mean people shouldn’t have given them a try.
I guess if one or both are limerent types then having tools to figure out if you’re actually compatible (versus limerence tricking you into thinking you are) could be very useful.
@Marcia @Snow, do you think it is ever possible that people catch a lucky break and find a 10 on both chemistry *and* compatibility? (If it is possible then it has never happened to me, but I do have two long-gone past LOs where I wonder…)
10 & 10 in chemistry is possible, 🆎not on compatibility!
But 10 chemistry will fade with time as Marcia points out and as my marriage has experienced.
Compatibility can help build stable, lasting emotion++ Love minus Eros and Mania.
Cupid’s arrow 💘 doesn’t mean to last… in most cases. But Fisher”s MRI data finds exceptions.
LaR,
“The glimmer itself is never the problem – it is when it is ‘frustrated’ that it becomes a problem.”
Depends on what you mean by “glimmer.” I wrote above about my college LO to Serial. Meeting him and immediately … level 10. Floored. Could hardly talk. That’s not a healthy response.
If someone makes you nervous and anxious and you’re waiting for the other shoe to drop … if that’s how a “glimmer” makes you feel (which it usually does me), it’s probably best to walk. That’s a sign from the Universe … stay away.
But I don’t know how you experience “glimmer.” For me, it’s pretty immediate and for the most ridiculous people. 🙂
“@Marcia @Snow, do you think it is ever possible that people catch a lucky break and find a 10 on both chemistry *and* compatibility?”
No
It’s passion or comfort. Pick one. 🙂 If you want both, you need two different people. I’m exaggerating, but you get the basic idea.
🚜,
I quite agree with the view presented in these short clips
https://youtu.be/UOn9HVQdOGc?feature=shared — the three requirements of a good relationship: kindness, vulnerability, and understanding.
https://youtu.be/ak4j5pVHDGg?feature=shared — the 17 secrets to successful relationship: a tall list
I went to visit my co-workers Friday (I am not one to socialize over the phone) where LO use to work. All five of us were sitting around talking when, the co-worker whose vow renewal I got invited to in July, was telling me about her cousin who is obsessed with our boss and read me some of her “thirst posts” and I told my boss “better be careful you’re someone’s Morgan (LO).” To which everyone, but the gal we recently hired knew what I was saying. She said “I don’t get the reference.” I told her “she was a woman that worked here before. She could walk all over me if she was inclined and I would thank her and ask her for more.”
I don’t think there is a “healthy” glimmer. Glimmer is the start of spiraling down the rabbit hole. I have never had an unhealthy relationship with any of my female co-workers before her or after her because there was/is no glimmer.
Adam 🥃,
Glimmer has no innate healthy or unhealthy qualities, it’s what one does with Glimmer in followups.
As I told LaR yesterday, I successfully killed three Glimmers in 14 months as soon as I knew it would lead nowhere (unavailability was evident) . It took one month, one week, and 6 hours to kill it completely.
DrL’s successful marriage, with its ups, turns, and LEs on both sides, started with mutual Glimmer, has grown stronger. Now, his wisdom gained from his Glimmer and LE is benefiting all of us here.
Hi Snow ❄️,
it all depends on your personal definition of glimmer I guess.
I align with you on this one and
Dr L does too, who probably has the final say on the neuroscientific definition.
Adams definition may be different though, if he hasn’t experienced a healthy glimmer and subsequent LTR afterwards ( as I have done) then I can understand his perspective.
💃,
I’m glad that you and I align with DrL’s definition on Glimmer, which is an indeed neural-chemical (re)action in the brain (I observed it keenly as Glimmer clicked in my head in Venice, analyzed and documented it and its follow-ups here).
I look at Glimmer as an alive “emotional gold/diamond”. Money/gold itself is not intrinsically dualistic — it’s a means, but HOW one USE/INVEST this piece of gold has dualistic directions, or multi-directions.
If LO is available and willing, one can use Glimmer to build a possible, workable relationship; otherwise, one has to immediately/soon give up/kill this alive “emotional gold” before the negative LE takes over one’s brain.
Before LwL, ignorant me let all glimmers, big or small, led me into painful/failed/successful relationships. Now, knowing what it is, I have a tool to manage Glimmer should it strike again.
I’m sure Adam could manage well his next Glimmer, always possible to strike anyone here at any given time.
“Glimmer has no innate healthy or unhealthy qualities, it’s what one does with Glimmer in followups.”
What do you feel when you feel the Glimmer? In your body? How does it feel?
So for me, a level 10 glimmer is … my nervous system is going haywire. My stomach hits the floor when they’re around, I feel very nervous around them, I can hardly form a sentence, I can’t even find my personality. I become this frozen, deer-in-the-headlights blob. I believe when it’s that intense, it’s my nervous system saying: Stay away. None of the level 10 glimmers I experienced have ever pointed me to good partners.
Now a crush, on the other hand, is some of the same (I’d say it ‘s a lesser glimmer), but to a much lesser extent. Maybe a level 5 to 7. I still get nervous, but I can talk to them, be somewhat myself around them … and, more importantly, I can see them much more clearly for who they are and I don’t get anywhere near as invested emotionally. So if it doesn’t work out or go anywhere, I can get over it pretty quickly. The crush doesn’t take over my whole life.
I don’t want another level 10 for someone who’s totally wrong for me. That’s just wasting what little time I have left on the planet. 🙂
“What do you feel when you feel the Glimmer? In your body? How does it feel?”
I clearly felt a click in my head, as obvious as a power switch flipped on its own. Then, my mental focus immediately switched to the GO— Glimmered Object, not violently, but mostly subtly (except GO1, 4, 4.5). Then in almost every case (G7-9), I’d lose appetite or sleep for the following 3-7 days. I could feel the entire body and mind get excited (not sexually aroused).
“So for me, a level 10 glimmer is … my nervous system is going haywire. My stomach hits the floor when they’re around, I feel very nervous around them, I can hardly form a sentence, I can’t even find my personality. I become this frozen, deer-in-the-headlights blob.”
Based on your description, I’ve never got level 10 glimmer, maybe 8 or mostly 9(?). I did feel very nervous around them, stuttered, face flushed, embarrassed and avoidant to look into their eyes. I wanted to hide my uncontrollable nerve sensations, and mostly succeeded in COO, where emotional expressions was habitually mocked at, even if it was available and healthy.
“I believe when it’s that intense, it’s my nervous system saying: Stay away. None of the level 10 glimmers I experienced have ever pointed me to good partners.”
With so little biological and scientific knowledge in dating and love matters back in COO, I never knew and understood what happened in my physiological system and why, until I came to LwL. As many other peers, we thought it’s normal to feel physically off balance while falling “love”…
“Now a crush, on the other hand, is some of the same (I’d say it ‘s a lesser glimmer), but to a much lesser extent. Maybe a level 5 to 7. I still get nervous, but I can talk to them, be somewhat myself around them …”
Yes, I had those crushes/mild glimmers (Romeo from last year) They still disturbed my sleep and appetite/digestion, but I could deal with them professionally with a certain amount of calmness. I did not list them here as xLEs, and it was much easier to walk away from those xGOs, should I found out they become unavailable, with a new or previously existed girlfriend.
“more importantly, I can see them much more clearly for who they are and I don’t get anywhere near as invested emotionally.”
Yes, definitely. I had a mild crush xLO4.7 for over 1.5 years, who demonstrated strong Narc traits (VIP at work). He was divorced and very interested in me, but I was nervous and quite reluctant to respond his subtle/demanding pursuit (something cold/cruel/calculating in his eyes). Then he found a new gf, which did not hurt me that much.
So if it doesn’t work out or go anywhere, I can get over it pretty quickly. The crush doesn’t take over my whole life.”
The same here, I had to pull away from smaller xLOs. Only this last one, the only unavailable one, coupled with the loss of Dad and intrusion of Mom, toppled me over into the negative LE stages, which I never gone through in my previous “xLEs”. Still my suffering doesn’t sound as intense and painful as some of the cases here, perhaps due to my cultural upbringing and newly-learned Stoic practices?
I still would not category Glimmer itself as either healthy or unhealthy. But your level 10 Glimmer does sound scary. I hope it would not hit us that high again as we are physically and neurologically aging…
Snow,
“I clearly felt a click in my head”
Ah. That’s interesting. That’s how I usually describe how I feel when I’m ready to diet and/or exercise. When I ‘m ready to stick with it and focus (as opposed to lasting a day or two). I get the click in my head and think: Ok, I’m going to be serious this time.
“Based on your description, I’ve never got level 10 glimmer, maybe 8 or mostly 9(?). ”
My college LO was a level 10 immediately. Some of the others … one guy I started talking to at a party. I had seen him around but never talked to him. I had never paid that much attention to him. But by the end of the night, I felt kind of a churning. And then he got my number and we texted for a few days before we went out … by the time of the first date, it was level 10. I had to have a drink before the date to calm down. So it became a level 10 pretty quickly.
“I did feel very nervous around them, stuttered, face flushed, embarrassed and avoidant to look into their eyes. I wanted to hide my uncontrollable nerve sensations”
Yes, that’s how I felt.
” As many other peers, we thought it’s normal to feel physically off balance while falling “love”…”
Oh, yeah, me too. I thought this happened to everyone. I thought it was how they experienced “love.” I was shocked when some people told me they didn’t even really like their spouses when they first met. Or told me the “he grew on me” narrative.
” I did not list them here as xLEs, and it was much easier to walk away from those xGOs, should I found out they become unavailable, with a new or previously existed girlfriend.”
Exactly. I was usually disappointed but not utterly crushed and taking yearS to get over them.
“Yes, definitely. I had a mild crush xLO4.7 for over 1.5 years, who demonstrated strong Narc traits (VIP at work). He was divorced and very interested in me, but I was nervous and quite reluctant to respond his subtle/demanding pursuit (something cold/cruel/calculating in his eyes). ”
So you were able to see some bad traits and stay away.
It’s so much harder to do that when limerent, where we lose ourselves and do some much more than we should do to pursue/be around the LO. At least I have.
“The same here, I had to pull away from smaller xLOs. Only this last one, the only unavailable one, coupled with the loss of Dad and intrusion of Mom, toppled me over into the negative LE stages”
Limerence often shows up when there are other things going on in one’s life. Mid-life crisis, for example.
” Still my suffering doesn’t sound as intense and painful as some of the cases here, perhaps due to my cultural upbringing and newly-learned Stoic practices?”
I don’t know.
“But your level 10 Glimmer does sound scary.”
Ah, but it wasn’t scary. I loved it. I wanted it. At the time. I compared that feeling to every new guy I met. Situations fell short if I didn’t feel it.
“I hope it would not hit us that high again as we are physically and neurologically aging…”
Also, hopefully psychologically becoming more aware. 🙂
Marcia,
“ I get the click in my head and think: Ok, I’m going to be serious this time.”
Really? Did the click work each time? making you stay in diet for your wished duration? How fascinating it happened when making a serious decision! Each time, I made a serious decision, my unconscious would rebel it somehow and successfully sabotaged it. So nowadays I just go ahead to do whatever I seriously want to do, without any “decision” making.
I only remember my mind clicked when big Glimmer took place, it had to be first 5-10 seconds, and it had to be I spotted LO first, when they had 🆎 no idea of my existence. After 30 seconds, there would be NO delayed or cultivated glimmer whatsoever.”
“by the time of the first date, it was level 10. I had to have a drink before the date to calm down. So it became a level 10 pretty quickly.”
Your description made me wonder if the same glimmer could grow bigger in intensity if encouraged by the same LO. My first Glimmer was huge (9-10? the sun suddenly became brighter in a later afternoon, outdoor), it was soon after my 1st menstruation cycle. My head was on 🔥 in the following months until he reciprocated me emotionally in less than 2 months.
My last Glimmer was also big (level 8-9, in the hallway, no brighter sunlight perceived) because I saw that familiarity (myself?) in his eyes (more than in any other xLO’s eyes), which probably made it easier to project my own phantom onto him 4 months later. The first time he saw me, more of my infuriated eyes, was 4 months later in the hallway again and introduced himself and his family man status to me an hour later in the office lounge with other people around. I was stuttered or speechless — “floored”? Glimmer📈📈?
Now, I wonder whether Glimmer degree could increase if/when a LO plays pull-n-push game, which could certainly increase LE craving, as we have seen some cases here.
“Or told me the “he grew on me” narrative.”
In romance, no man has ever grown on me. But in friendship, it happened with both men and women. I think many of us, modern and young spirit, are very accepting and tolerant with friends, who don’t live in our daily life or in our head.
“So you were able to see some bad traits and stay away.”
Yes, I was able to discern bad traits most of the time, particularly with people who have narc-traits. LO#3, 4.5, 4.7, 6 all have narc-traits, strong masculine energy that certainly clash with mine. I instinctually can’t stand (or fear) perceived dominating spirit often exhibited in Macho or extravert men. I did not glimmered big (all level below 5)at the above xLOs, more so they picked me up in public.
In my COO, we were all trained since little with logical, critical, cautious, distrustful mind, because the living environment (political and cultural) was never “safe” enough. One inappropriate word/comment could send one to Room 101 of “1984” — no exaggeration here (how Dad was sent to a labor camp for 6 months).
Most Western romantic souls would certainly hate this kind of trained mind if they can peek inside of it. That’s the evil side of communism! I escaped into Western classical books since 10, thus was shielded somewhat and became a secret cultural/political rebel, a romantic in heart, with a sharp T-mind and intuitive eyes on the surface. So I was able to use my T-mind to stay away from troubling/narc LOs.
“It’s so much harder to do that when limerent, where we lose ourselves and do some much more than we should do to pursue/be around the LO. At least I have.”
I only found it very hard in my last LE. I could not control my emotions/mind, but some of my actions — the big, irreversible ones. To be able to freely monologue my stresses and then send them out to LO without fear (took a while to reach that point) was the positive gain in my LE; without it, I could not possibly cure my cptsd. So I considered other LE pains as a price to pay for it! I was/are grateful for his passive “contribution” — did not block me or report to my supervisor, whatever his motivation was to do so.
“Limerence often shows up when there are other things going on in one’s life. Mid-life crisis, for example.”
Yes to every “xLE” I had. I had life-time, undiagnosed cptsd and was always chasing a LO who seemed to be able to parent me for the second time.
[“But your level 10 Glimmer does sound scary.”
Ah, but it wasn’t scary. I loved it. I wanted it. ]
Big glimmer was indeed exciting, it sky-rocked my mind and spirit, it uplifted my soul to the sparkling space! But I think I was always subconsciously worried to lose total control to my intense emotions or to another human being. Meanwhile up to this day, I never wanted to control/manage another human being myself, not even interested in any supervising/managing positions at work anywhere. I only enjoy learning new, teaching new, and writing new.
“At the time. I compared that feeling to every new guy I met. Situations fell short if I didn’t feel it.”
Totally know how you are feeling here. Glimmer below 4 is color gray and pretty hopeless to me.
“Also, hopefully psychologically becoming more aware. 🙂”
Well, since Glimmer happens through neural-chemical system, I don’t think psychological awareness is fast enough to catch up the moment of Glimmering — to me, it only takes first 5 seconds of encountering a new man. It often occurs when one is least prepared for it, like in Venice, my OCD mind was taken over elsewhere, but a Glimmer still suddenly hit. Our neurology has NO regard to our mind, heavily occupied or empty.
But psychological awareness definitely could help prevent us from slipping into another LE. I really think that we informed, unattached limerents CAN embrace falling in love, and also CAN push away another limerence.
Glimmer? Leave it to Cupid’s 💘 . If standing in front of us is a Shakespearian 🐖 , then wisely pluck out the arrow to slaughter the “pig” for dinner…😎
Snow,
“Did the click work each time? making you stay in diet for your wished duration? ”
For a good portion of it.
“Each time, I made a serious decision, my unconscious would rebel it somehow and successfully sabotaged it.”
I would eventually rebel and go off the deep end with junk food for a bit, but then usually go back on the diet. I would get disgusted with myself that I succumbed.
“So nowadays I just go ahead to do whatever I seriously want to do, without any “decision” making.”
For me, if it’s anything big, I have to take my time and process it. Research it. Or I make a decision based on impulse.
“I only remember my mind clicked when big Glimmer took place, it had to be first 5-10 seconds, and it had to be I spotted LO first, when they had 🆎 no idea of my existence.”
That’s a lot of requirements. I’m surprised you’ve had any LOs. 🙂
I think we’ve talked about this before. I like a man to be the aggressor. Or the initiator. There’s nothing hotter, if you like him. 🙂
“Your description made me wonder if the same glimmer could grow bigger in intensity if encouraged by the same LO.”
So your LOs didn’t encourage you? All of mine have encouraged me. I don’t think I could have become limerent without the encouragement.
“My first Glimmer was huge (9-10? the sun suddenly became brighter in a later afternoon, outdoor), it was soon after my 1st menstruation cycle. ”
Probably all the hormones. 🙂
“My last Glimmer was also big (level 8-9, in the hallway, no brighter sunlight perceived) because I saw that familiarity (myself?) in his eyes (more than in any other xLO’s eyes), which probably made it easier to project my own phantom onto him 4 months later. ”
Mine have been the opposite. Not always … but often the LO had something I lacked. Was something I wanted to be.
“The first time he saw me, more of my infuriated eyes, was 4 months later in the hallway again and introduced himself and his family man status to me an hour later in the office lounge with other people around. I was stuttered or speechless — “floored”? Glimmer📈📈?”
Family man status? Was his wife there? You were speechless because you found out he was married? That would have disappointed me. I don’t know that it would have killed the limerence but I would have been very disappointed.
“Now, I wonder whether Glimmer degree could increase if/when a LO plays pull-n-push game, which could certainly increase LE craving, as we have seen some cases here.”
Most definitely. My last LO was a master at the push-pull game. Like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football.
“In romance, no man has ever grown on me.”
I have had it happen. Once. But I made a conscious decision to date a nice guy. I liked him a lot but wasn’t initially attracted. But I did get very attached to him. And when it was over, I was very broken up.
“But in friendship, it happened with both men and women.”
Yes, that’s happened for me, too.
“Yes, I was able to discern bad traits most of the time, particularly with people who have narc-traits. LO#3, 4.5, 4.7, 6 all have narc-traits, strong masculine energy that certainly clash with mine. I instinctually can’t stand (or fear) perceived dominating spirit often exhibited in Macho or extravert men. I did not glimmered big (all level below 5)at the above xLOs, more so they picked me up in public.”
But you still considered them LOs? Did you date these guys, even though you didn’t like their behavior?
” no exaggeration here (how Dad was sent to a labor camp for 6 months).”
Are you Russian?
“So I was able to use my T-mind to stay away from troubling/narc LOs.”
I don’t know what a “T-mind” is.
“I only found it very hard in my last LE.”
Really? I’ve done it in every LE. Did too much. Put up with too much.
“To be able to freely monologue my stresses and then send them out to LO without fear (took a while to reach that point) was the positive gain in my LE; without it, I could not possibly cure my cptsd. So I considered other LE pains as a price to pay for it! I was/are grateful for his passive “contribution” — did not block me or report to my supervisor, whatever his motivation was to do so.”
Are you talking about the emails to him?
“Yes to every “xLE” I had. I had life-time, undiagnosed cptsd and was always chasing a LO who seemed to be able to parent me for the second time.”
I’ve read limerence occurs when people are in a place of some turmoil … life transitions, so to speak.
“But I think I was always subconsciously worried to lose total control to my intense emotions or to another human being. ”
I think I wanted to lose control. I wanted to get out of myself and my natural reserve. And often, with people, I feel like there’s a cultural script I’m following, though I don’t necessarily feel the words I’m saying.
“Meanwhile up to this day, I never wanted to control/manage another human being myself, not even interested in any supervising/managing positions at work anywhere.”
Me, neither.
“Glimmer below 4 is color gray and pretty hopeless to me.”
It just doesn’t feel like anything.
“But psychological awareness definitely could help prevent us from slipping into another LE.”
Yes
” I really think that we informed, unattached limerents CAN embrace falling in love, and also CAN push away another limerence.”
Yes, but it starts with the limerent making good choices about who they pick.
Marcia,
“For me, if it’s anything big, I have to take my time and process it. Research it. Or I make a decision based on impulse.”
If anything big, I wait and inquire myself repeatedly: WHY do you want to do it? What’s my (sub)conscious goal? If choose 1 or 2, what could be possible consequences…. I don’t do much research, unwilling to follow anyone else’s examples. Importantly, I seldom make impulse moves, while not making definitive decisions, except staying away from obvious bad ones, eg. buying a bag of chips or even Hu Chocolates — unable to take just a piece a day, but a whole bar if I have them.
“I only remember my mind clicked when big Glimmer took place, it was always within first 5-10 seconds, it was always that I spotted LO first, when they had 🆎 no idea of my existence; the 3 big Glimmer (#1, 4, 7) hit 3 LOs with strong femininity.”
“That’s a lot of requirements. I’m surprised you’ve had any LOs. 🙂”
There was a grammatical error in my previous post (just changed the sentences). I meant that every Glimmer naturally happened that way, I never had pre-requisition. I only noticed the same pattern after coming to LwL, and wondered why.
“I think we’ve talked about this before. I like a man to be the aggressor. Or the initiator. There’s nothing hotter, if you like him. 🙂”
Yes. we did. I absolutely dislike a man to be the aggressor, although wanted him to initiate a romantic move. I said once to L.E. “I’ll take a willing LO to the baseball field, but he has to swing the first strike” Then I would equalize same amount in same degrees for the following romantic Tango. Trifles’ current MD (mind reader) is leading their romantic dance.
“So your LOs didn’t encourage you? All of mine have encouraged me. I don’t think I could have become limerent without the encouragement.”
In all previous relationships (not so much of a LE) after I glimmered, available LOs all reciprocated emotionally or physically within two months, what’s left to encourage? They did not get into LE stages, without uncertainties — they changed into normal dating (except crush 1 & 2)
Only the last one was unavailable, but when I was pulling back, ET would not let go my infatuation for him. Thus his emails floored in for 8 months, but I rejected his casual “alternative friendship” invite. Then he said (as I told you last year), “I don’t think I’ll have more time for you.” Then soon afterwards his new pet/lim appeared, which pushed me into LE’s negative stages.
“Mine have been the opposite. Not always … but often the LO had something I lacked. Was something I wanted to be.”
In all LOs’ eyes, I saw familiarity and myself; the most in last Glimmer.
“Family man status? Was his wife there? You were speechless because you found out he was married? “
No, you misunderstand me. I meant he introduced himself to me and told me he had two daughters. His wife was not there, I never met her in person during 7 years of LE. So she remains as a concept of SO to me. She sounded like a sweet, mother-hen, he’s a henpecked hubby.
I was speechless was because finally I got to meet stranger-LO in person officially after 4 months that quiet glimmer took place and already dialed down to level 3-4 (due to the summer break). And I saw his eyes were glimmering at me (an hour ago he spotted my glimmering eyes and “a bulb” turned on in his eyes immediately — a Sensor glimmered).
“But you still considered them LOs? Did you date these guys, even though you didn’t like their behavior?”
Technically, they should not be considered as LOs, but my OCD brain tended to ruminate about them and my interactions with them. Yes, I did date LO#3, 4.5, 6, but not #4.7 — too narc-like, also working in the same office.
“Are you Russian?”
Nope. In Russia’s neighborhood. Dad was a professor of Russian and first introduced Western classical literature to me at age of 10.
“I don’t know what a “T-mind” is.”
T-Mind — rational, logical thinking.
[“I only found it very hard in my last LE.”
Really? I’ve done it in every LE. Did too much. Put up with too much.]
I’m an Easterner. By the stereotype definition, we’re more reserved and shy living in the West, especially in romance arena. But in the last LE, I couldn’t believe how much I’ve given in and put up with LO’s push-n-pull behaviors. It turned to be a true LE after 1st four years. Also, I was mentally weak right after Dad’s death and then sick due to the development of Hashimoto thyroiditis and consequential lymphoma.
“Are you talking about the emails to him?”
Yes. First emails and then a personal SM.
“I’ve read limerence occurs when people are in a place of some turmoil … life transitions, so to speak.”
I was in a depression bout, feeling stuck. Can’t believe one could even glimmer at anyone or anything while feeling everything was so gray. Then LE brought me out of the depression for 8 years, despite all LE pains.
“I think I wanted to lose control. I wanted to get out of myself and my natural reserve.”
I think I might be able to lose control only to a safe, mature hand, but haven’t met any able hand. Now, my hands are mature enough to hold myself, so more needs of an external hand for support but maybe for rounds of Tango.
“And often, with people, I feel like there’s a cultural script I’m following, though I don’t necessarily feel the words I’m saying.”
Coming from another culture and somewhat rebellious, I don’t follow the cultural script here or off my COO, so I’m in my own no-man’s land/nest. I’m comfortable and content being alone, better than with “wrong” companies.
“Yes, but it starts with the limerent making good choices about who they pick.”
I still don’t think I can direct my Glimmer, but I can safely kill it when I see it lands on a “wrong” person. As we previously discussed, I’d be willing to date a LO with Level 5-6 glimmer and 6-7 compatibility. Compatibility can be learned/trained and organically grow together.
I was limerent for my spouse during our engagement.
I love what you’re saying. If ‘activation’ is one of the essential characteristics (I think it is) of limerence I think when we’re in this hyper activated state (that’s so compelling) it completely swamps real feelings and limits access to real attraction.
So I’ve come to believe that in order to access real thought/feeling/emotion we need to be calm. when we’re “activated” the activation can feel potent and compelling and as such I think it masks the experience. its tricky to manage as its activated by and around interractions with other people who are going to respond in different ways.
correction: How do you not run from that when you’ve always chased the level 10?
Yeah, this will be a big part. What does the glimmer mean? Prize or danger? And how do you learn to avoid the danger?
Glimmer…?
“The Story In Your Eyes” – The Moody Blues (1973)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se9U6xG_fEM#ddg-play
“Prize or Danger?” Look at the Title of the album.
I’m the kid. I would listen to this song over and over.
The two sides of the Glimmer coin — prize and danger. One side does not exist without the other.
Sorry, Dr. L. I have one more. How do you filter for partners who know that a level 10 is a bad sign and aren’t getting with you, a level 6, because the relationship is good and it was a slow burn, only to be subconsciously searching for that level 10?
I would like to add…the glimmer and what happens afterwards is a choice. A series of choices. If your boundaries and vigilance is a tad sloppy, you may slide quicker than you think (autocorrect wrote quicklime instead), but it is still an active choice/series of choices and the sooner the Limerent Individual realises this, the better. Acceptance is a great state…but will take time and effort to reach, and will not feel so good as getting high on this new person. Abandoning all, blowing up your life for Limerence are consequences of choices. Handing over responsibility and just let it slide, is easy to ‘just let happen’ in a Limerence besotted mind. And the consequence and burden of the ‘sunk cost fallacy’ Is different for different people.
A guide..hmm…we are asking besotted ppl to engage their higher brain functions. Not all, I’d say few, are that curious and eager to understand, but for those that are, great! The guide should also target those around the LI struggling to understand. As to unattached ppl….free to act…I would personally say that they may not be your target audience as it is ‘normal’ and the intensity may be associated with various popular concepts (again hanging the validation on forces beyond control).
Conducting research in our external validation seeking culture is quite a challenge!
CG,
So glad that the term “our external validation seeking culture” is from your post, not mine… the same observation would be considered, by a vulnerable and insure mind, as an “attack” of the Western culture if I utter it… ☺️
For unattached PPL, a wise guidance for LOVE, but not Limerence is, IMP, still very important, especially for us “limerents’ tribe. I agree with you that DrL’s guidelines for the present besotted/suffering limerents would probably amount little effects, but could help a great deal for those who have been liberated from and come out of LE. They will help prevent future limerence episodes. (With LwL knowledge, I’ve killed three Glimmers in 14 months.)
1.5 months after the last LE ember is finally extinguished (just one month short of 8 years), I can calmly, confidently and clearly tell what difference is between still in and totally out of limerence, during which longing and anxiety, no matter how mild, are still attached to LE brain. (I’ve been sleeping average 2 hours longer every night, my deep sleep stage is exceeding an average amount, and little to none awake time, based on my smart watch.)
Hope you’re feeling better with “a warm glow of embers and comfort”, but not LE’s crushing highs and lows.
Typo: “and insecure mind”….
❄️,
Nice, LwL has got livelier again in the last 24 hours!
“I’ve been sleeping average 2 hours longer every night … etc”
Great news – embrace that for all it is worth!
“For unattached PPL, a wise guidance for LOVE, but not Limerence is, IMP, still very important, especially for us “limerents’ tribe.”
From my reading of DrL’s work, I believe his view is that we are either in the limerent tribe or we aren’t – not so much that a limerent can ever move to the other tribe, but that they can learn to be more purposeful with how they behave as a person with limerent tendencies.
I am thinking now of someone in your position who would, if they wanted, be available for a relationship. Wouldn’t the beginnings of love *always* feel a bit like limerence for someone in that position (if they are ‘limerent tribe’?). Take DrL’s marriage as an example – he said both he and his wife felt limerent to start with. I am not 100% sure of his intended audience and purpose with his proposed new guide – but I think it is for people in his former position (with his wife). In his words “how do you bottle the lightning of limerence?” or in my paraphrase, how do you safely bring that initial ‘cosmic’ (always exaggerated for a limerent) love back to earth and land it safely to become healthy long term love? And how can you assess whether you and the other person could be capable of doing it together – is it worth the risk?
“With LwL knowledge, I’ve killed three Glimmers in 14 months”
Linked to above point – that’s great in terms of saving you and other people the pain of limerence. But – open question – do you think you could now tell a ‘safe’ glimmer (worth pursuing) from a ‘dangerous’ glimmer (needs squashing)?
I think possibly DrL’s intention here is to help people with that question.
It is very different for anyone with an SO of course – I don’t mean my points here to relate to me or anyone else in that position, but that’s not who DrL is trying to speak to here if I’ve read him right.
🚜,
You’re right… and my intuition never failed me… once I’m out of the deserved hibernation, all sorts of seeds are then sprouting 🌱 🌱 …. What a Spring 🌱 🌱!
Should I keep 🧘♀️ or 💃 a little? 😵💫
😊🤭
“Should I keep 🧘♀️ or 💃 a little? 😵💫”
I think you know what my answer would be!
But I think *that* is what DrL wants to help people with in his guide. It is not meant for folk like 🎩, but rather for limerents who are free to indulge, but maybe a bit conflicted over whether to, through their past experiences.
🚜,
I meant to 🧘♀️ or 💃🏻 on LwL. It’s so nice to have those long, deep sleep without a thing to worry about…:
Last week, I dreamt about ET twice. 1st one on Monday, in which he came back the town with a full beard— gross! I tired so hard not to show my disgust.he told me with his wife present that he quit his current job because it’s too stressful and thus moved back to the town. I couldn’t care less what he chose to do.
Last night, one of my gfs and I for some reasons visited his school that was ready to go into summer session. ET Saw me at the gate and smilingly said that he’d tour me around his school. I was thinking; ah, I don’t want to deal with your superficial smile. Later my Mom appeared briefly for god knows what reason; but I didn’t see ET again while walking around the school ground (unrealistic).
Now the ember of my LE is gone, ET related dreams become quiet, neither positive or negative, aside from that beard, distancing me further.
I don’t feel like having hat coffee either, what for?
I feel a but sad, I guess. I have finally “lost” my limerence! A loss is still a loss…. and my mental room is totally freed up…
I’m sitting in front the biggest commercial river, bathing under the bright warm 🌞
Have a ressful sleep!
👒☕️???
Is that an alternative to 🤣 🦰🫖?
🚜,
That’s was a typo, it was “that cup of coffee” talked by DrL when limerents think that they’re over LE and can soon sit down with their xLO, like what you and 🐝 🧙♀️ are going to do.
I was saying that I have no desire to sit down with ET for coffee since nothing left to say and make NO points whatsoever…. I feel some pities for him, like I did for Mom — both of their insecurity drove them to seek/go after everyone else’s validations and could never have enough… Dad did not care about them and showed me how.
I’ve grown so much through this long LE experience, thus not regretting a bit of the time and energy “lost.” LE woke me up, dug up buried stuff inside me, and strengthened my mental power to heal my own life-time wounds… what else could help achieve such a wonder⁉️
An adversity is always the best teacher if one is willing to learn from it.
🎩 , Have an easy, new week at work and home!
@Snowphoenix.
“So glad that the term “our external validation seeking culture” is from your post, not mine… the same observation would be considered, by a vulnerable and insure mind, as an “attack” of the Western culture if I utter it… ”
Snow, you misunderstood what I said to you the other day, and once again you are taking things out of context so you can play victim and indulge in self-hatred and self-pity. You are once again dishonestly and unfairly blaming others for the limerent pain you find yourself in.
This is what I meant to say to you: you overthink things that don’t need to be overthought and which other people in your life are not overthinking. This overthinking is causing you pain. All persons in limerence indulge in the same overthinking. All persons in limerence experience similar pain to the pain you experience. (I.e. pain stemming from overthinking). Your limerence isn’t unique because nobody’s limerence is unique. All limerents indulge in painful overthinking that tends to worsen their obsessions.
Limerence is biological, not cultural. This means limerence feels the same regardless of whether you’re from the West or the East, or whether you’re located in the West or the East. Westerners experiencing limerence are usually no freer to act on their limerence than Easterners experiencing limerence. This is because obstacles/barriers are a necessary ingredient for limerence. People who are free to act seldom develop strong limerence.
I understand you are in terrible pain due to your limerence, even though you choose to deny the fact you are in terrible pain, due to a misguided sense of your own moral superiority. Everyone who has ever experienced limerence (the kind of limerence that turns into person addiction) has experienced pain as terrible as yours – and maybe worse. Everyone who has ever experienced person addiction has felt the same frustration as you, the same self-hatred as you, and the same diabolical self-pity as you.
You being unpleasant toward other people who have experienced similarly painful cases of limerence is not a solution to your limerent pain. You assuming Westerners can’t or don’t suffer is both unfair and dishonest.
Everyone here has consistently been extremely kind and gracious and compassionate to you, but you want to pretend they haven’t because people being kind and gracious and compassionate to you (within the limits of propriety and the limitations of time and energy) doesn’t fit your victim narrative. Here’s the thing: if person addiction makes you a victim, everyone else here who’s suffered person addiction can make the exact same claim. If everyone is a victim, logically, no one can be a victim. Victimhood ceases to be a meaningful concept in a world where everyone is a victim or everyone wishes to lay claim to the victimhood mantle.
It’s not unreasonable for anyone to ask you to think about your often-inconsiderable behaviour, and how it negatively impacts others. One of the things I find most confusing about you is you seem strangely put out when I talk to other readers – other readers I have known much longer than you in some cases.
For example, you got jealous and offended when I made a Hollywood-related joke to Jaideux. (I was saying I’d collect her award just as Joan Crawford collected Anne Bancroft’s award). You got jealous when I had friendly interactions with Frederico, despite the fact you would know Frederico and I have a lot in common naturally due to our shared sexual orientation. Finally, you got jealous when I had a pleasant vibe with Nisor, even though I was taking the same interest in Nisor I would take in countless similar readers. You were also apparently a friend to Nisor.
By your own admission, I’m not your LO, and you are not mine, so I don’t know why you sulk when I don’t give you my undivided attention. I’m actually a very boring man in real life. My companionship isn’t worth very much. There are many men in the world much more charming and interesting than me. I’m really not some prize you need to covet. There is no reason for you to seek validation from me. I am truly unremarkable.
In a place like LwL, happiness may come from having polite and friendly interactions with many different people from many different walks of life, and not from pitting people against each other, or trying to manipulate one person into meeting all of your needs. If you accept a small amount of love from many people, you won’t run the risk of draining any one person, and plus everyone benefits from feeling they have contributed something.
I didn’t have a positive experience of limerence. That’s just how my limerence turned out – my limerence, aka infatuation, was unrequited and turned into person addiction. It’s irrelevant what real and/or hypothetical obstacles/barriers existed between my LO and I. At the end of the day, he simply wasn’t interested. One can’t really argue with an LO who says “no thanks”. And no, my LO wasn’t a bad person. And yes, I think I am mature enough to wish him well now that the obsession has finally faded. 🙂
🚜,
“Nice, LwL has got livelier again in the last 24 hours!”
Thank you for the compliment. 😊 My brains likes to be challenged by complex issues and likes to be engaged in discussion or answering questions — never run out as long as human species exist and interact with each other, even in a “ghost” 👻 form.
“From my reading of DrL’s work, I believe his view is that we are either in the limerent tribe or we aren’t – not so much that a limerent can ever move to the other tribe,”
I don’t think in my previous message that I hinted a limerent can move to non-limerent tribe. I agree with DrL and even Crappy Childhood Faire that limerence tendency is perhaps pre-wired through inheritance (she has no data to prove), since it involves neural system wiring, like tendency/genetics for depression.
“but that they can learn to be more purposeful with how they behave as a person with limerent tendencies.”
🆎! I believe that a well-informed/educated limerent could behave, physically and mentally, like a non-limerent (not truly) with a strong rationality intact after Glimmer and infatuation: knowing why s/he is possibly infatuated by another, eg. what’s attraction, what’s unknown, what’s concerns/dislikes, etc… I did a better analysis with my 3rd glimmer in Venice. more than two previous Glimmers in my town. I couldn’t help but analyze it, which itself could enliven or deaden the Glimmer. It lasted 6 hours!
“I am thinking now of someone in your position who would, if they wanted, be available for a relationship. Wouldn’t the beginnings of love *always* feel a bit like limerence for someone in that position (if they are ‘limerent tribe’?). “
You’re theorizing here. As a limerent, I would imagine/assume there would be a Glimmering pull, physically or mental, towards the crusher. As for me personally, I have undiagnosed OCD, so I need to watch/analyze my mind to see what’s attractions there, knowable or mysterious; the crusher is like an open-book with fixed/finished ending, or an open-book with open endings. This part, I can/will rely on my initiation and interaction with the crusher. Imagination, assumptions, and logical assessment merely from words are unreliable, due to our own background influences. Others’ words often serve only as a mirror to us, instead of a gateway to get to know them.
“Take DrL’s marriage as an example – he said both he and his wife felt limerent to start with. I am not 100% sure of his intended audience and purpose with his proposed new guide – but I think it is for people in his former position (with his wife).”
If non-limerent, they may never have found or come to this site. I saw a video clip in 2020 about “limerence” and firmly thought I did not have it. So I gave up any further search. It’s only after 2022-23 after my limerence pains increased so much that I was frantically looking for online guidance to what I was suffering. So DrL’s audience would be “active” limerents, like most of you with SO, and “inactive” limerents, like some of unattached here, (not sure where Anna and CMC stand nowadays, Norma is in excruciating LE pains).
Now, I’m out of LE — a huge switch after 4/2 powerful tear-driving envision, I believe/suspect that DrL’s guidance would little affect the active limerents, since the mind is still in that altered state, severely or mind. Your mind (collective) is not totally liberated yet and you don’t know yet how it feels like once freed (not the same as before you got hit by the present LE). Sorry I have to point it out.
“In his words “how do you bottle the lightning of limerence?” or in my paraphrase, how do you safely bring that initial ‘cosmic’ (always exaggerated for a limerent) love back to earth and land it safely to become healthy long term love? “
Please don’t use “cosmic love”, it’s not Love yet. Now, with LwL knowledge/wisdom and Stoicism, recognize and accept that lightning Glimmer and wisely analyze it without inflaming it further or killing it too fast. Analysis is always effective tool but overdoing it is dangerous.
“And how can you assess whether you and the other person could be capable of doing it together – is it worth the risk?”
Interact with and learn about the other person, isn’t it the ONLY way? Marcia has a lot of good/sounding advice. Trifles is making her efforts interacting and learning about her MD(mind detector?)
But – open question – do you think you could now tell a ‘safe’ glimmer (worth pursuing) from a ‘dangerous’ glimmer (needs squashing)?
I feel/think I can. I can’t tell just from Glimmer, I need to know the other person a little more with realistic interactions, 🆎 with 6 senses involved. Verbal interaction, as you pointed out before, has probably 10% of accuracy as what a speaker intends. Everyone interprets words based on their own background and experiences in all arenas, thus an interpretation or a discernment could be as far as the Earth to Saturn (like shown in LwL). Never trust inconsistent limerence brain and limerents’ words alone, mine WAS included.
To quote the end of Adam’s Stoic clip: “Attraction ins’t just chemistry, it’s conscious intention.”
“I think possibly DrL’s intention here is to help people with that question.”
I agree. I think DrL could give some clear bio-physical and mental SIGNS to indicate/tell whether one’s MIND is in healthy love or has tilted towards limerence. Recovered limerents may already know what limerence IS like through their own experiences, but might be still inept about what a healthy “Love” (combined with Greek 7 love concepts, minus Mania) feels and looks like in reality. To be able to give love and receive love are almost the toughest and most dedicated SKILLs, it can be learned and trained.
Ah, yes, the seduction of “giving in”.
I found these YT clips helpful:
https://youtu.be/aUH8PV4PIr8?feature=shared — How to work out the emotional maturity of prospective partners
https://youtu.be/JRtKwcUJ5xk?feature=shared — “I love you but I do’t think we should be together”
https://youtu.be/NxX6AL6q8Wg?feature=shared — What happens when they finally love you back
https://youtu.be/kNTXwcoXY0o?feature=shared — Limerence flourishes when grief and loneliness are filling your life
Limerence is NOT Love, and LO, good or bad, is just a a catalyst triggering off one’s profound wound(s) or a pressing issue that draws limerencts into a limerence, often one after another… until the wounds are discovered and healed. Then Limerents have a chance to truly love without slipping into limerence, I suspect and believe (speaking from my xLEs)
First off, yes I would find the guide helpful..
The one issue most perplexing for me during LE was not realizing the depressive hole I might fall into, once realizing I was beating a dead horse with LO. Consciously I already knew there would never be much between us or even a basic friendship. Yet that option was never good enough. I wanted to change the entire trajectory of things, hoping that silly eye contact (breadcrumbs) would eventually afford me the Woman of my Dreams..
Pathetic and dumb..
It’s the general sadness, tears and sometimes unbearable amount of anxiety that would hit me so hard over that, my heart would actually physically hurt. Like I was almost choosing to give myself a heart attack. (My guess is these were full-on panic attacks)
Limerents or potential Limerents who are feeling this way over another person, I feel like should be made aware this behavior is severe and potentially deadly if they can’t get a grip on their feelings. Perhaps I was a more worse case than others, but this was fact on how this Woman affected me internally. I feel like at times this forum and the discussions from here were what kept me emotionally afloat. As reaching out towards therapy fell flat. I was stubborn then about giving LO up and to this day she still makes me somewhat emotional. No other Woman, EVER in my life, has affected me in this way. Not ONE, and I have had many many crushes over the years..
Perhaps all this falls into:
-Signs your obsession is getting out of control. OR
-How to escape when you are in too deep.
I think it was just in the general madness of what was going on, when the glimmer struck, I had no idea where it all came from and/or why this person became so profound in my mind. So finding this place helped me to know I wasn’t the only one going through this.
The after-effects of this episode are now comparison shopping. Like many of us have our favorite pizza and no other pizza is as good as the one we like best. (Or use your favorite food)
Every and any Woman out there (to me) simply doesn’t compare to LO. No Woman looks as good as LO. They are not as cute or mysterious as LO. They don’t talk, move or smell like LO. And they are definitely not as dashing and vogue as LO. This of course doesn’t mean I don’t find other Women attractive or desirable. (Because Sabrina Carpenter has a TON of LO-like-isms) There’s just this one little part of my brain now that if I see a Woman I like, she almost immediately gets compared in my head to LO. (This happened often with LF) I’ll always be playing back a moment over LO or if I think of or look at her picture. None of them ever come close to as striking or good enough. It’s just how it is and more of the sad and pathetic state I’m in. This as an after-effect of limerence..
So yes this could be a potential problem for any relationship/love life I might want down the road.
@MJ.
“Every and any Woman out there (to me) simply doesn’t compare to LO. No Woman looks as good as LO. They are not as cute or mysterious as LO. They don’t talk, move or smell like LO. And they are definitely not as dashing and vogue as LO. This of course doesn’t mean I don’t find other Women attractive or desirable. (Because Sabrina Carpenter has a TON of LO-like-isms) There’s just this one little part of my brain now that if I see a Woman I like, she almost immediately gets compared in my head to LO.”
Such beautiful writing!
Thankfully, for me, the physical comparisons have at last stopped. Actually, I never compared other men to LO. I simply took one look at other men and saw my LO in that other man. It’s like my brain turned all human men into my LO.
I’ve found recovering from person addiction has been extremely beneficial for my relationships with males in general. All my relationships with males have improved. My relationships with straight men have improved and my relationships with gay men have improved. There’s just … less projection (onto straight men especially), less overthinking (on my part), much better communication, more mutual warmth, more fun, more silliness, more “kinship”.
During limerence, I kind of lost myself completely, allowed myself to be consumed by this weird “fear of rejection”, and became irrationally convinced I wasn’t as good as other people. But now, out of limerence. I haven’t retained any of those traits. So it seems like … insecurity was just being generated by the limerence?
Having said this, I don’t think it’s always possible to give people a timeline for recovery. Some people may recover really fast and other people may stumble around helplessly for many years until they feel they’re making some progress.
During limerence, I had straight male friends who told me there was absolutely nothing wrong with me. They said they admired me. They said pretty much everyone looked up to me. And they couldn’t understand that the limerence was making me feel chronically “inadequate” about everything all the time.
Looking back, limerence did look like some kind of crisis in self-confidence for me. However, other people around me didn’t perceive me as lacking self-confidence. I think people saw me as quiet, but they didn’t see me as insecure.
The hardest part of limerence, I think, is not being able to trust one’s own moods. E.g. “I don’t know if I’m going to be in a good mood in three hours’ time.” or “I don’t want to commit to social plans because I’m aware my moods fluctuate wildly. and I can’t promise that I won’t be feeling terrible tomorrow morning.”
Post-limerence, my relationships with females have become slightly warmer too. Actually, I find mild enjoyment in socialising with both sexes, whereas before I thought: “There aren’t enough males in this room! What happened to all the men? Did they just drop off the face of the planet? I only want to interact with biological males. Where did all these women come from?” (I was the opposite of those straight men who complain about social events being “sausage fests”). 🤣
I think I’m just more myself. I’m not doing a rehearsed version of me. I think maybe some people may fall into limerence because they’re not allowing themselves (for whatever reason) to experience the full range of human emotions. And then the LO inadvertently brings all these colourful emotions to the surface. A key sign of healing is gaining access to those colourful emotions (which naturally exist inside all human beings) without overreliance on LO as a conduit.
The only part of limerence I hate relinquishing … sharpened tastebuds. Food tastes so good when one is in the altered state of limerence (at least to me). 🙂
MJ,
“Because Sabrina Carpenter has a TON of LO-like-isms)”
Wow. You referencing a woman in her 20s.
I’m still waiting for you to do something unexpected. 😏
C’mon Marcia Dear,
Don’t hate.. Appreciate.. 😂
https://youtube.com/shorts/ctzU2Gjx0fs?si=5R_PPZZ7FDCLt5iC
And don’t let me find out you’re playing Grandma in that clip..
😉😄
MJ,
If I’m Gradma, you’re the old guy at the bar. 😀
“If I’m Gradma, you’re the old guy at the bar.”
@Marcia
I’m ok with that. I’m the Cool Old Dude that brought her to the commercial shoot in my brand new Corvette. We hung out, took selfies all day and then got ice cream.
We look good together.. You know, almost as good as 73yo Bill Belichick and 24yo Jordon Hudson..
🤣🤣
MJ,
“I’m ok with that. I’m the Cool Old Dude that brought her to the commercial shoot in my brand new Corvette.”
Yeah, and then Sabrina asked you to drive her to Barry Keoghan’s house. Her former boyfriend. Who’s 32.
“Sabrina asked you to drive her to Barry Keoghan’s house. Her former boyfriend. Who’s 32.”
@Marcia,
Because she wanted to get her stuff out of his place, so she could bring it over to my place. Because Dude was “32.”
She prefers chill and seasoned older Dudes that treat her right. Especially the ones that have Dad bods and give her Dad vibes. Like me.. 😂
MJ,
“Because she wanted to get her stuff out of his place, so she could bring it over to my place. Because Dude was “32.””
Ah … baby doll, you’re in denial: She’s still hitting it.
She wants him BECAUSE he’s 32. And if you watch the movie “Saltburn” … he’s a complete freak. 🙂
“She wants him BECAUSE he’s 32. And if you watch the movie “Saltburn” … he’s a complete freak. 🙂”
All good.. Her and I talked about it. He’s just her fwb. She needs that when she wants to get her freak on. Then she comes over to my place after to cuddle with me. I don’t mind.
You know how us old dogs operate don’t you Dear? We can’t move like we used to, right??
Sabrina understands. She likes a man now and then that takes his time.. Besides slow and steady wins the race.
😉🙂
MJ,
“She needs that when she wants to get her freak on. Then she comes over to my place after to cuddle with me. I don’t mind.”
Dude, have some standards! She’s goes over his house, she ain’t coming over to yours.
“She likes a man now and then that takes his time”
Nah. She and I talked and women are always more honest with each other.
She said she’d take 15 minutes of hot and sweaty over an hour of slow and tortoise-like any day. 😉
“She’d take 15 minutes of hot and sweaty over an hour of slow and tortoise-like any day.”
@Marcia
Well she’s just a pretty little liar then isn’t she? Because last time she stopped by (after her hookup) she told me she liked my nice&easy. Afterall, she did write her song “Bed Chem” with me in mind..
Think she forgot to mention that to you..
https://youtu.be/x8VkB8ap_FQ?si=E3NiOjhqDJ4h336s
“Who’s the cute guy with the wide blue eyes and the big bad mmm?”
That’s MJ 😂😂😂
MJ,
“Because last time she stopped by (after her hookup) she told me she liked my nice&easy. ”
Oh … what? I feel asleep in the middle of that.
“Afterall, she did write her song “Bed Chem” with me in mind..
Think she forgot to mention that to you..”
No, no. “Bad Chem” is about Barry.
“Nice and easy” doesn’t get a girl hooked on bad chem. It’s “mean and nasty.” 🙂
“Wow. You referencing a woman in her 20s.”
@Marcia,
Fyi.. It was between her or Norah Jones. (Who is much older btw) So I had to go with the younger blue-eyed blonde. (Like LO) 😄
Dr. L,
I was thinking about asking you to write a blog entry focusing purely on the biology of limerence, since I understand your background is in biology. However, your updated version of the “Playing with Fire” article did cover some of the things I wished to read, while not mentioning the specific chemicals involved.
Let me just think out loud for a moment. Human beings are biological organisms. Limerence is a biological process that happens to us. Certain chemicals change our biology by making us feel really good at the start of limerence i.e. infatuation. Infatuation sometimes leads to successful pair-bonding. The chemical rewards behind infatuation wear off after successful pair-bonding occurs. So far, so good.
Infatuation in some cases (but not all cases) may lead to person addiction. If infatuation leads to person addiction, certain chemicals change the affected person’s biology, so they may feel really bad e.g. anxious, stressed-out, unable to sleep. etc. When a person recovers from person addiction, one’s biology changes again (my own experience which I’m going through right now) into what feels like a much more overall stable (but far-less-chemically-gratifying) state. 😆
I feel some of these super-interesting and important biological details get glossed over when people discussing limerence talk too much about moral and/or social/relational aspects. I really enjoyed studying biology in high school – it was my favourite of the three sciences. Limerence is an altered state. What exactly is being altered? Why, human biology is being (temporarily) altered, of course!
I feel a brief chat about biological changes taking place during limerence would enhance most discussions about limerence, and take a ton of shame out of the experience. At appropriate public events such as bookshop discussions, I feel asking the audience a few basic questions about biology might be a fun way to kick things off. I.e. the public can tell the doctor/writer/biologist what they know.
When I was falling into what felt like a deeper vein of limerence (or maybe even full-blown person addiction, since I was already strongly limerent), one day I had an almost other-worldly experience. I was alone in the woods, surrounded by greenery, and I felt overwhelmed by extremely intense emotion. I felt like my entire physical body was being overtaken by “emotion and instinct”. I felt like I was being possessed (possessed by genetically-pre-determined hormonal forces evidently and not by demonic entities living in the local forest). 😆😆
I couldn’t stop this hijacking of my body by forces outside of my control. However, the hijacking didn’t take over all of my brain, because there was still some small part of my conscious mind observing this very strange and inexplicable “event” as it happened. In other words, crossing that fatal threshold from “still-potentially-healthy infatuation” into “person addiction” felt like an out-of-body experience to me.
I don’t think many people experience the total takeover of their physical bodies, while retaining some limited control of their minds. I also felt incredibly aroused, if I’m allowed to say that, even though no one was around i.e. there were no erotic stimuli in the environment whatsoever. Long story short: on that day in the woods, biologically, I think I passed “the point of no return”. From that day forward, I just had to ride out the horrible limerent episode to the very end.
If I were to give any advice to people who wish to incorporate limerence into their love lives in a non-destructive way, first I would counsel them to find a reciprocating available partner. Second, I would counsel them that the intensely pleasurable feelings evoked by infatuation don’t last indefinitely. I’d tell them not to feel too disappointed when their partner turns out to be a flawed human being.
As a teenager, I experienced suicidal thoughts simply as part of the “lows” of limerence i.e. as a routine (to me) part of the Addiction Stage. Obviously, the lows alternated with highs, so the suicidal thoughts were transient. If I had known that my very low moods and dark thoughts were caused by person addiction, then I think I would have found great comfort in the knowledge I wasn’t going crazy. I was merely going through a temporary period of extreme biological upheaval.
The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer apparently came up with the insight that when a man falls in love with a woman, he isn’t connecting with her soul, or sharing some deep spiritual bond with her. Infatuation, to Schopenhauer, isn’t “destiny” or “mystical union”. Infatuation, to Schopenhauer, is a “ruthless illusion”, a “biological trick” nature plays on man to facilitate reproduction.
People over the years have interpreted Schopenhauer’s words in various ways. Some people say he’s a misogynist, and that his philosophy implies women as a sex are somehow evil for the “spell” they cast on men. However, I think anyone with a working knowledge of limerence understands that “person addiction” is the root cause of most of the pain associated with infatuation, and that both men and women can fall into person addiction or cast the spell creating fascination.
I think the best we can really do for people who want to combine love and limerence is to find a tactful way of telling them that “obsessive infatuation” is at best a “fleeting delusional high”. Whether or not “obsessive infatuation” is a “trap designed to promote reproduction” probably depends on how one feels about reproduction and about how one feels about the prospects of men and women forming successful long-term partnerships with each other in general. If people can adjust their expectations of their partner once the high of infatuation has worn off, then couplings that begin with limerence needn’t be unhappy per se.
Limerence to me always felt really “heavy”. And when I say “heavy”, I mean I felt like I was “drugged to the eyeballs”, despite the fact doctors and nurses couldn’t find a single questionable substance in my bloodstream. (I was neither a drinker nor a smoker at the time of my admission to hospital). Or maybe I should say person addiction to me always felt really “heavy”. Having recovered from person addiction, I feel I can go about my business minus the heaviness.
If a gay male friend asked me for advice, out of love and concern for his well-being, I’d be obliged to tell him that if he’s feeling the “electric attraction” of “obsessive desire” (more words from Schopenhauer) for a straight male friend, he – the gay male – should run for the hills, and shun fantasy at all costs. (Don’t let that rascal in your head! Also, whatever you do, don’t go ‘wooking for wuv in all the wong places’!) 🤣 The straight male friend may be the kindest man who’s ever lived. However, if the gay male falls in love with the straight male, the straight male will break said gay male’s heart – over and over and over again. 😉
If the gay male survives the experience, he may one day even write silly little poems like this:
You look at me with intense eyes
And I feel nothing in return.
Perhaps the flame of passion died
When we ran out of things to burn?
Your phantom I no longer spy
Amongst the silver water fern…
Hi All. Many thanks for all these fantastic contributions!
It genuinely feels like this topic has unlocked a whole new vault of insights. That’s got to be a good sign that this guide will be useful.
That’s a pretty good “purposeful living” endpoint to aim for, Sammy. Perhaps that should be the last line 😉
“That’s a pretty good “purposeful living” endpoint to aim for, Sammy. Perhaps that should be the last line 😉”
Thank you, Dr. L. Perfect practice makes perfect! Heaven knows I’m spent enough time “practising being me”. Eventually … intelligent life does seem to evolve. 🤣
I would like to ask a question of the more experienced people here.
In the past week, I have had a sharp turn in my emotions toward LO.
Between some things he said to me that were insensitive, and me having some new medical issues that he seems to be indifferent to, I find I have turned against him.
I have not spoken to him; I want to avoid him.
I used to think there was nothing he could do that would change my feelings for him, but I guess I was wrong.
I find myself very angry and disgusted.
And I wonder, is this progress?
Norma D
“I find myself very angry and disgusted”
That’s where I was at the end of my LE. Before going completely NC. Not so much disgusted but annoyed. Irritated. I was finally accepting I’d never get what I wanted from him … but he was still at least in part getting something from me — pantsfeels/validation. I didn’t want to give it to him anymore. There are many women in the world. He didn’t need to flirt with me. 😀
To Marcia:
Sorry I am not familiar with the term “pantsfeels?”
Norma D,
Basically, a jolt in the undercarriage.
Dear Norma
Yes! You are moving through the cycle, as it were. It’s normal please don’t feel as though you have to argue with it, or resist. Let it be. Let it come and go a bit like a cloud, you are moving through that process.
When one breaks it down, and looks at it dispassionately (not always easy, granted!) it’s all the hallmarks of grief.
My best advice dear Norma, is to allow yourself to feel what you feel. I am angry and vitriolic towards my LO. I’ve felt
Guilty for it, etc, yet why?
Just feel what you feel.
Jmmo x
To JMMO:
Wondering why you would feel guilty? I can’t imagine feeling guilty.
I did so much for this man and his mother, and neither one of them appreciates it. I feel a lot of emotions, but guilt is NOT one of them.
Song of the Day: “Start Me Up” – The Rolling Stones (1981)
https://youtu.be/7JR10AThY8M?feature=shared
As I (hopefully) navigate the end of my marriage and move on with my life, I have begun to think about dating and what it would be like as a limerent. I know that thinking about dating is several steps ahead of where I should be, but I can’t help it. I still retain a faint hope of dating LO #3 at some point, but I don’t think that is realistic. If I do some soul searching, my honest best guess is she liked me at one point but has now moved on. Me being married freaks her out, and I get the feeling she would prefer it if I was slimmer (something I’m working on but have been failing at lately). If she liked me, she would have made more of an effort to spend time with me and wouldn’t have given me so many mixed messages.
For me, I am wondering if dating women I’m not limerent for would ever give me the sense of euphoria and the intense passion of a limerent experience. I have mentioned elsewhere that my current LO feels like heroin, and while I am attracted to some other ladies, they seem like methadone at best. I am starting to wonder if I could even get aroused by someone I’m not limerent for. Getting into a relationship with someone I’m not wildly passionate about feels like settling. I was never wildly passionate about my wife when I started dating her. I had serious doubts about her right from the start, and I am starting to think that if you’re not really passionate and seriously attracted to someone maybe you shouldn’t really be dating them.
But is that realistic? We’re told not to necessarily look for “the spark,” but there has to be attraction there for it to work (basic biology and physics dictates that this is particularly important for men — especially once they get a bit older and aren’t aroused quite as easily). Let’s face it, if a man can’t even get an erection, no sex is going to happen.
I guess what I would be looking for is guidance on dating someone you aren’t limerent for. How can you tell if someone is a fit for you if you haven’t experienced the intense infatuation of limerence with that person? Should limerents only date people they are limerent for? Does it make sense to go on a second date if the person doesn’t make your heart skip a beat? Is it reasonable or fair to expect limerent feelings to develop, and is that a reasonable yardstick to measure your attraction for and interest in someone?
Vicarious,
” I have mentioned elsewhere that my current LO feels like heroin, and while I am attracted to some other ladies, they seem like methadone at best. I am starting to wonder if I could even get aroused by someone I’m not limerent for.”
How many women have you been limerent for? Do the math. Then take that small number and filter in more odds … she has to be interested in you and available.
I’m not trying to be negative. Just realistic.
Personally, to go on a second date, I think you should be attracted to the person. You should feel you had a good time with them on the first date and look forward to the next date. It shouldn’t feel like a chore. You shouldn’t have to talk yourself into it. But limerent right off the bat? That’s a tall order.
I was really struck by your comparison of LO to heroin. It’s very apt.
I need to write that down.
“Should limerents only date people they are limerent for? Does it make sense to go on a second date if the person doesn’t make your heart skip a beat? Is it reasonable or fair to expect limerent feelings to develop, and is that a reasonable yardstick to measure your attraction for and interest in someone?”
I’ve had many crushes on many people I should and shouldn’t have had over the years. Only one crush has been truly and undeniably limerent.. I say this because of how it felt in the beginning and all the roller coaster ups and downs that followed. I can look back and say I had strong crushes on other Women over the years. That maybe approached a limerent type nature, but none that made me hurt or get so clumsily emotional over something that never actually was.
I personally do not feel that limerence is anything a person should be striving for in any relationship. All because of what it entails. When I look back on what LE felt like with the emotions, the longing, the hoping, ruminating,
fantasizing and overall pedestaling. Then the crushing lows and sadness.
It’s ridiculous to think I could sustain any modicum of genuine relationship. If all I would be doing is living to satisfy LO, then trying to live out all my fantasies. Would she ever really reciprocate like I was thinking in this altered state? Probably and most likely not..
I would tell myself I wanted to start out by being friends, but quickly realized I desired more. Like craved and craved more. And talk about glimmer.. Like true glimmer that was 10+++ and then some!! I wanted the friendship, fun, romance, lust, love. Maybe even marriage or babies. Any way I could attain LO at any highest level possible is what I longed for. In my head, I could see it all, thought about it all the time and wrote poetry.. Poetry!! Yes freakin poetry over this Woman. Ridiculous poetry. Oozing with tenderness, intimacy, attachment, adoration and pure reverie. I mean, who does this?
Who loves like this? I surely never felt elation like that for my Ex Wife. Even my favorite ex gf never got that kind of treatment. So why this LO? This beautiful blonde Latina? I still don’t get it but she got inside my head and still won’t come all the way out.
It doesn’t make sense you should desire limerence because of all that is negative about it. You’re in an altered state of mind. Your brain wants to keep you happy. All the warm and fuzzy feelings are not real and can you honestly believe you’re going to be able to love someone like that and them not eventually get sick of you? You would only be setting yourself up for failure.
When I was friending with my Lady Friend from work, my feelings for her never really became so strong that I thought she was going to be LO2. I definitely crushed hard on her. Yet knew from past experience already, all that I poured into LO and came away with literally nothing, was reason enough to scare me away from becoming limerent like that again. For anybody. I wasn’t going to force myself to get that way again and I reminded myself of it constantly. It’s true she checked off a lot of boxes on my list. She was hot and her and I really hit it off in the sense of becoming true work buds. In the end it all back-fired on me and now we’re not speaking to each other, but I don’t need to rehash it. The goal for me was not to become limerent again. Which I don’t think I outright was. Can’t say I didn’t get somewhat emotional over her at times and really wanted to ramp up things a notch or two. But it never pained me it didn’t work out like that.. Or grieve me in the extreme way like when LO transferred out or ignored me when she knew I wanted to talk to her..
Some in the forum here commented to me they thought I was actually limerent for LF but I still don’t completely buy that logic. Not all the way. The uncertainty with LF just wasn’t there. I knew her too well. Could joke around easily with her and knew how she’d react. In addition, she isn’t as graceful or dashing like LO and knowing her and a lot of what she was about kept me grounded from things getting out of control in limerent land. I thought LF was more about purposeful living this time around, but it wasn’t meant to be, and that’s fine. Maybe we’ll be friends again someday. For now, she’s just someone I work with.
My heart skipped a few beats for LF but a lot of times didn’t. I don’t think it’s mandatory you feel that way either but you should at least be attracted if you’re going to want to enjoy yourself with someone. Personally I think you should just relate. Relate, get along with and after that has gone on awhile, ask yourself if you can see yourself long term with this person. Coming out of a bad marriage, almost anything is going to seem like paradise compared to what you’ve been going through. My guess is this will be challenging since you’ll be so excited to get anything off the ground. In the meantime, stay focused on properly ending your marriage, maybe meeting someone along the way
and taking in what you know will truly give you peace. You deserve it.
Not gonna lie though. The dating market now is rough. I regret so many of my bad choices in life that got me here.
Best of luck as always and keep us posted..
Thanks @ Marcia, Norma and MJ. I haven’t been on LWL for a couple of weeks, so maybe that’s a sign of some improvement?
I suppose I know logically that limerence isn’t a good thing. It isn’t something to strive for. My point was more along the lines of, for someone who has experienced limerence, how can “normal” attraction and dating not seem inferior to the strong highs, euphoria and feeling of being madly in love characterized by limerence? I have been limerent for three women in the last five years and probably six or seven women in my life, so it is relatively rare. I’m also under no delusion that it would be easy to find mutual limerence (there are some women I know have had feelings for me, but I don’t think they were limerent for me, and even if they were, the feeling was not mutual).
I have met women I like and am attracted to. I have a new glimmery friend, and she is helping to take my mind off my LO to a certain extent. It is so strange because she is very different from LO #3. The truth is she represents a certain archetype I fantasize about dating after my marriage ends. I am told she is very nice and very family-oriented, but this is a heavily tattooed woman who rides a motorcycle. Honestly, I think that is kind of hot. I’m intrigued, even though I’m a white collar university educated professional with absolutely no ink. I’m not limerent for her, but she hangs out in a certain bar I used to frequent, and she sometimes comes out with my friends. Every time I look over at her to check her out, she is looking at me too. She is quite friendly with me on social media and our group chat too.
Again, I know it should be too early to be thinking about anyone else, but my marriage truly is on the rocks and maybe this is more what normal dating should feel like? I like her and I am attracted to her. I am disappointed when I don’t see her, and I would like to get to know her better. Like MJ, I am able to have garden variety crushes without them turning into full-on limerence. I’m certainly not pining away for her or thinking of her every waking moment. I am not sure if she is my usual type, but a friend has told me to look beyond the obvious and to recognize that she is a really decent person. I also recognize that she is a stable and financially successful person. She is giving me more validation than LO #3 is, so there is that. Maybe opposites attract?
I just had an upsetting setback. I was at the shopping center and spotted LO across the parking lot. He didn’t see me. As soon as I caught a glimpse of his beautiful hair, I burst into tears.
I waited until he drove off before I started my car.
I really thought I was doing pretty well, until just now.
But I’m not okay at all. I’m still crying.
ND,
This happens to me too. Even though I do not regularly see LO, when I want to ruminate, sadness usually accompanies it. More often in quiet moments or when I want to get away from it all. Just hearing an opening line to a song that I’ve associated to her will instantly cause a mood shift. Then I’m right back in the doldrums of sadness and regret. It’s weird but I do it to myself. LO is just that one special person who does this to me. Sometimes I welcome it because everything about her just always feels right. Yet nothing about it is real or true or factual. She’s just an idea. A person that knows nothing about me, other than where I work.
This mentality probably borders insanity. Person addiction is real. I know why I do it. My personal life just sucks. Nothing more needs to be said.
I’m sorry you are hurting today. I’ve been there. Try to focus on something else you like to do. That’s what I do when I’m sick of moping. It isn’t healthy. There has to be something..
Until we make the choice to move beyond this and live with purpose, it’s going to keep disappointing us.
I’ve dealt with this after breakups which caused limerence. One was actually a breakup with a friend, but I was already limerent for him. Just spotting them across a room can make your stomach drop into your shoes. It can take a long time to get over—but, eventually, you stop thinking about them.
To Serial Limerent:
Thank you for the encouragement. Getting over LO can’t come soon enough.
From “Migrations”
Gloria Gervitz
translated from the Spanish by Mark Schafer
now I’m in a landscape full of mockingbirds
I get closer and closer
when I claim that vastness
I’ll barely have the strength to wake in the brevity of death
the light strikes the air
we’re in the place where the colors open
the days are long and clench like migraines
and everything repeats
the trees casting off
the night dissolving
and then?
nothing is true but the reflection of the dream I’m trying to shatter
and which I don’t even dare to dream
constant plagiarism of myself
and time is the only meeting place
it’s all nothing but time
there where a few sprigs of bougainvillea in a glass of water
suffice to make us a garden
because we die alone
and death is just the awakening
from this first dream of living
and my grandmother said as we left the movies
dream that the dream of life is beautiful my child
the candles’ glow grows rusty
and I where am I?
I’m who I always was
the surprise of being
I come to where everything starts the beginning of the beginning
this is the time
the time for waking up
my grandmother lights the Shabbos candles from her death and looks at me
Shabbat lengthens into never into after into before
my grandmother who died of dreams
endlessly rocks the dream that invents her
which I invent
a wild girl looks at me from inside
I am whole
******
It speaks for my Grandma… 🐦🔥
A List of Praises
Anne Porter
Give praise with psalms that tell the trees to sing,
Give praise with Gospel choirs in storefront churches,
Mad with the joy of the Sabbath,
Give praise with the babble of infants, who wake with the sun,
Give praise with children chanting their skip-rope rhymes,
A poetry not in books, a vagrant mischievous poetry
living wild on the Streets through generations of children.
Give praise with the sound of the milk-train far away
With its mutter of wheels and long-drawn-out sweet whistle
As it speeds through the fields of sleep at three in the morning,
Give praise with the immense and peaceful sigh
Of the wind in the pinewoods,
At night give praise with starry silences.
Give praise with the skirling of seagulls
And the rattle and flap of sails
And gongs of buoys rocked by the sea-swell
Out in the shipping-lanes beyond the harbor.
Give praise with the humpback whales,
Huge in the ocean they sing to one another.
Give praise with the rasp and sizzle of crickets, katydids and cicadas,
Give praise with hum of bees,
Give praise with the little peepers who live near water.
When they fill the marsh with a shimmer of bell-like cries
We know that the winter is over.
Give praise with mockingbirds, day’s nightingales.
Hour by hour they sing in the crepe myrtle
And glossy tulip trees
On quiet side streets in southern towns.
Give praise with the rippling speech
Of the eider-duck and her ducklings
As they paddle their way downstream
In the red-gold morning
On Restiguche, their cold river,
Salmon river,
Wilderness river.
Give praise with the whitethroat sparrow.
Far, far from the cities,
Far even from the towns,
With piercing innocence
He sings in the spruce-tree tops,
Always four notes
And four notes only.
Give praise with water,
With storms of rain and thunder
And the small rains that sparkle as they dry,
And the faint floating ocean roar
That fills the seaside villages,
And the clear brooks that travel down the mountains
And with this poem, a leaf on the vast flood,
And with the angels in that other country.
Norma Desmond – hugs. Sometimes those glimpses from afar are the most potent. Not long now until the danger of spotting him across the parking lot is gone and you can breathe again.
Snowflake (I don’t know how to get emojis here!) I have a bit of a mental block with poetry and don’t understand much of the one you’ve shared, but it’s beautiful. “Nothing is true but the reflection of the dream I’m trying to shatter
and which I don’t even dare to dream” is particularly potent for us who are trying our hardest to escape from this annoying thing that’s going on in our heads.
Can I just say – Argh! I feel as though I was doing so well during the past month since the revelation of discovering LwL and devouring Smitten, but in the past few days I’ve been slipping back into old thought habits. Sending solidarity to all you other limerents.
To Monochrome:
Thank you for the kind words and hugs. It means so very much to me.
Monochrome,
If you type “snow” on emoji page, it will give the image for ❄️, short for “Snowphoenix”, my spelled handle name.
“I have a bit of a mental block with poetry and don’t understand much of the one you’ve shared, but it’s beautiful. “
I often choose and share prize-winning poets’ (all of them) poems, which somehow are related to our or my personal experiences. Reading them and carefully selecting them takes my mind off from daily routines and worldly bustling…. If they can help poetically distract LE noisy/painful mind or even wake/inspire a sleeping muse inside Limerents’ heart, then the work of poems are truly appreciated.
“Nothing is true but the reflection of the dream I’m trying to shatter
and which I don’t even dare to dream”
is particularly potent for us who are trying our hardest to escape from this annoying thing that’s going on in our heads.”
Yes, I really agree with your interpretation of these two beautiful lines, it seems specially fitting to “limerence” fantasy/dreams, from which we want to escape or wake up. Perhaps you could come up with your own prose /lyric lines to express out your frustrated LE emotions, then feel somewhat liberated?
I’m sure those lines could apply other situations, like migrating to a new culture/land as the author/poet did. We immigrants (I’m one myself) need astronomical courage to dream something impossible and even try to make them come true.
❄️
Thank you! I’m not going to try and write poetry or prose because I find writing words really hard, but I have other creative avenues and keep meaning to harness the frustrated limerent thoughts into something beautiful. I’m being cryptic for anonymity.
I wish I had the courage of an immigrant! Even to just spend time in another country, speaking another language, finding a new perspective on life. Maybe it’s a project for when the kids fly the nest (a long way in the future right now).
Monochrome,
You know you could upload pictures here while keeping your anonymity?
Use https://imgur.com/upload to create an anonymous file and upload images of your arts (without your real name). Then you can send link here. You or your arts still appear under Monochrome; we only see an image.
Perhaps you could use the free Imgur as a means of your artistic expression of your LE thoughts.
❄️ Thank you! I need to create something first. This may take some time, given my current rate of creation.😂
I’ve been reading all the posts about people’s different views on what the Glimmer is with big interest.
I think I’ve been using the term quite differently to others here (and maybe different to what DrL meant) but also think I experience glimmers differently to most. Marcia, this might have come across as a slight lack of understanding yesterday on my part about what the Glimmer at “Level 10” is for you.
Because the word ‘glimmer’ in other contexts refers to a small amount of light (not a flood of it), Ithink I’ve seen “the glimmer” a bit like that.
Up until now I have regarded glimmer like a ‘click’ as Snow called it, but that click for me is usually “ok, this has potential, let’s see”. These clicks can occur when I first meet someone or a long time later. I know that is different to how many of you describe it.
I have been thinking back and think I’ve only had one ‘instant / ‘bang’ ‘ type glimmer where it wasn’t like the above thought but more “I want to get with you now”. This was my LO2 about 25 years ago. Never anything that strong before or since. Maybe she is my only level 10 glimmer?!
With SO I had enough of a click to motivate me to take action quite quickly to date her. But that’s just fairly normal dating behaviour right? Butterflies in the stomach and nervous sub-conscious behaviour like Snow and Marcia described have been par for the course for me when starting out any new relationship (or trying to but not succeeding). But I never remember it striking me where it knocked me so far out of my stride I couldn’t function at all around the person. With LO2 I guess I made quite bungled attempts to date her initially which didn’t succeed at the time.
More common for me are the slow-burn ‘clicks’ (maybe this is why I get friends and romance confused?!). My first SO and I ‘clicked’ mutually a year into knowing each other. With LO4 (recent one) there was the sort of “ah, there is potential” click instantly (it felt a bit like it did with my SO, but with availability constraints). But then a decade later with her was the only moment that brought about the thoughts like Trifles described of “I’m in trouble here”. I remember the precise moment it tipped, but can’t pin down why and probably never will. And indeed I was in trouble immediately after that moment – getting on for two years of trouble.
So I think even if I experienced it only 1-2 times, and in very different ways, I have figured out what you all mean by the “this is trouble” type of glimmer compared to others.
DrL – something for your guide?!
LaR,
“With LO4 (recent one) there was the sort of “ah, there is potential” click instantly”
So you do know when you experience the glimmer. I’m assuming it’s markedly different than just finding someone attractive ?
Marcia,
Yes, it is markedly different from finding someone attractive. It carries more real potential than that. But it doesn’t always/ever throw me the loop of ‘lose the plot and ability to function around the person’. I struggle to think when that ever happened to me – though I will always get milder variants of it, even now.
LaR
With me it’s been different every time. I don’t even have a definite numbered list of LOs like some people on here. Was my husband an LO? Well I remember about the time I fell deeply for him and realised he was probably “the one”, but by that time we’d been together a couple of years, so it felt very different from an obsession from afar. Can I describe that as limerence? That depends on one’s definition of limerence. Does defining it help me in my current predicament? Not really. I just know that I’m thinking about someone else more than I should do, in a way that I am finding difficult to control.
With current LO, I just remember suddenly thinking about him after I’d met him for the second time, and not being able to get him out of my head, and feeling surprised and confused about why my brain was doing this. I think a lot of it was to do with the situation, because it was during the craziness of Covid when life was turned upside-down and socialising was restricted and purposefulness was taken away.
Oh gosh Monochrome, that is a very long slog for you then, if that happened during Covid.
I think your second example is more like a glimmer. Deciding on a partner’s marriage potential is another very interesting but different topic!
With my recent LO, it is eerie how I remember a ‘moment’ where the switch flipped – every detail. And it was at seemingly the most mundane, innocuous moment at work. When I trace back events running up to it, they were anything but innocuous, but it is funny how the moment seemed it, just a pronounced ‘flip’of the switch then no going back (a lot of denial in myself at the time about what I was doing in the run up, but I rolled the red carpet out for limerence).
I don’t think my numbered list is right! I thought through all LO candidates in my life (there were over 20 ‘crushes’ as candidates 😳) and determined which ones went ‘other level’. In all those cases they are ones where there was a barrier in the way, though the nature of those barriers varies, as well as (most times) there being strong first-sight attraction. But there are others where the same attraction level was there but it never went limerent, as there were no barriers and it could progress naturally.
LaR,
“But there are others where the same attraction level was there but it never went limerent, as there were no barriers and it could progress naturally.”
So doesn’t this tell you something? That you’re limerent BECAUSE of the barriers, NOT despite of the barriers. That it isn’t some otherworldy thing. Or super special connection. Remove the barriers … and it’s a garden variety attraction.
So here’s another question (and this is for all limerents) … can a person who is available and interested ever compete?
It’s kind of stinks being the long-term partner. You’re in the day-to-day slog, but you’re not the far-away fantasy figure. (I’m killing it with alliteration on that one. 🙂 )
How do you find a partner who values what’s in front of them? Not what they can’t have. (These are all just talking points.)
If I start dating someone I really like who I sense likes me, do I need to create barriers to get them completely hooked? Should I move away? Be hot and cold? 🙂
Marcia: “If I start dating someone I really like who I sense likes me, do I need to create barriers to get them completely hooked? Should I move away? Be hot and cold?” Definitely not! I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t work and it could backfire. We can’t manufacture these situations, and regardless, it’s a horrible thing to do.
I do think there’s something in there being a barrier that creates a feedback loop that gets us hooked and leads to limerence. But that doesn’t mean that the love we have for our partners when everything works out well is any less potent. Anyone who spoke to me in the first few years of my relationship with my husband will know how boring I was going on about him.
Marcia
“So doesn’t this tell you something? That you’re limerent BECAUSE of the barriers, NOT despite of the barriers.”
Correct, but I don’t think this is anything different to what I’ve argued all along about it.
When we were talking about glimmers you said yours at the Level 10 were a bit ‘otherwordly’ (you might not have used that word then, but that’s what I thought you meant) – I said I didn’t get instant glimmers like that, but that I get more thrown into ‘other worlds’ when the barriers come in. I think, on this point, we’re on a similar page.
“How do you find a partner who values what’s in front of them? Not what they can’t have. ”
We are basically dealing with a biological issue here, aren’t we, not one that’s totally under the conscious control of either the limerent, their spouse, or both? I mean, what the limerent *does* about it is under their control (although often isn’t well controlled). But how they *feel* – where their hormones (or as Snow would put it, Aphrodite) takes their mind – that’s not really under their control.
🚜 & 😎 🍫,
May I cut in just a bit here?
I think what Marcia says is that both she and me level 8-10 glimmered at someone pretty much at the first sight, before we even knew whether LO was available or not (definitely in my cases); and our neural system was set off to the sky instantly (hers were worse than mine).
But your glimmers were often slow-burn, or after you know the barriers. So the question is raised, Is your glimmer purely set off by neural-chemical reactions prior to any social and psychological “contamination” or your glimmer grew bigger due to existing barriers.
Of course, once Glimmer takes place, instantly or slow-burning, Aphrodite has the same effects on any 💘 soul/mind.
Is this the topic of your discussion?
Yeah Snow, I’m basically agreeing with Marcia that, for me, a crush turns to limerence *because* of barriers.
Some LwLers work with a different definition of limerence, like when they have a very intense and anxiety-driven start to a relationship with an SO. But that scenario just feels like relationship development (not limerence) to me. I have had that before and it is a very different feeling to my barriered LEs.
🚜,
I had ALWAYS run away from the existing barriers prior to the last LE. It’s wasting of time and futile to get a man’s HEART/SOUl when it was already engaged elsewhere (I didn’t have that confidence). I did not want to “fight” with any other women and would feel lowly if I went down to that nasty hole (remember, pride is my biggest Narc trait). I never knew Jealousy was/is a normal part of human natures in interaction/relationships until the last LE. My Dad trained me well.
So due to the barriers of all sorts, I had to kill my glimmers again and again, despite the mental and physical pains I had to endure.
This last unavailable LE was due to the loss of Dad, so I was psychologically settled/contented for 4 years for a surrogate-parental LO while still (sub)consciously desired EA, but he would not give. On the 4th year, when ET shockingly asked for a casual connection in writing, I furiously refused, unable to believe his “reciprocation” was for a casual PA, which would make me a sO (sex Object).
Nope, I can have casual PA with dates from apps, not LO when I had “given” so much of my mind/heart to his existence and wellbeing, that’s not what an authentic limerent is mostly after, based on Tennov. But when my first jealousy appeared, my mind was tipped off and pulled into LE 3rd-5th stage…. Nonetheless, at last Athena won over Aphrodite and my oath to my soul remains intact.
Glimmer set off by barriers puzzles me somewhat.🤔
LaR,
“We are basically dealing with a biological issue here, aren’t we, not one that’s totally under the conscious control of either the limerent, their spouse, or both?”
I mean, the feelings are biological. The hormones/chemistry create the attraction/interest.
But it turning into limerence (the intensity of the feelings) is BECAUSE of the barriers.
Does that not strike you somehow as ridiculous? That you’re longing and pining and pedestalizing simply because you can’t have them.
(And, btw, I mean unavailability in general. Could be emotionally unavailable.)
I’ve written about this before. I had an LO years ago. He wasn’t available. I’ll be frank: We had an affair. He became available. And my feelings died down considerably. Really quickly.
You’d think I’d learn from that.
” I said I didn’t get instant glimmers like that, but that I get more thrown into ‘other worlds’ when the barriers come in. I think, on this point, we’re on a similar page.”
I think my subconscious is drawn to unavailable people. So for me, a big glimmer is a bad sign.
Monochrome,
“We can’t manufacture these situations, and regardless, it’s a horrible thing to do.”
I was joking.
“But that doesn’t mean that the love we have for our partners when everything works out well is any less potent. Anyone who spoke to me in the first few years of my relationship with my husband will know how boring I was going on about him.”
But that’s my point. You wrote “the first few years.” Not now. You aren’t rambling on now. We’re limerents. It’s just a matter of time before we become limerent again.
Honestly, I wouldn’t date me if I were me. I’m a bad bet. 🙂
Snow,
“I think what Marcia says is that both she and me level 8-10 glimmered at someone pretty much at the first sight, before we even knew whether LO was available or not (definitely in my cases); and our neural system was set off to the sky instantly (hers were worse than mine).”
Yes, they were at first sight or after a few interactions and I didn’t know whether they were available or not. But I do think my subconscious was picking out bad choices for me. There’s that, too. Every one of them was unavailable — either physically or emotionally.
Now, as I wrote to LaR … one became completely available after some time, and the limerence died. Almost overnight.
(I’m not sure what your poster name is)
“Yeah Snow, I’m basically agreeing with Marcia that, for me, a crush turns to limerence *because* of barriers.”
I’m not saying that. My response to LOs (physiologically) was a level 10. (Or an 8 or 9.) My crushes elicited a lower type of response. And I’ve had crushes who were unavailable who did not become LOs. I don’t know why. Something about the person, the timing of when I met them.
Marcia,
“Does that not strike you somehow as ridiculous? That you’re longing and pining and pedestalizing simply because you can’t have them?”
Yep. What a weird quirk of human nature that is.
(me [btw, the tractor symbol is me]) “I’m basically agreeing with Marcia that, for me, a crush turns to limerence *because* of barriers.”
(you) “I’m not saying that…”
I might not have been 100% clear, but I was only trying to say I agree that the ‘barriers’ statement is true for my crushes/limerence – not yours, which I can tell work differently.
LaR,
“Yep. What a weird quirk of human nature that is.”
It’s us. It’s our quirk. A limerent’s quirk. (Although I’m sure it’s not exclusive to limerents.)
There are some people who, when they find out the person is unavailable, move on. Get turned off.
“[btw, the tractor symbol is me])”
Of all symbols, why are a tractor? 🙂
Snow,
“I did not want to “fight” with any other women and would feel lowly if I went down to that nasty hole”
I never saw it as a fight with another women if an LO had a partner/spouse. I never wanted to wrestle them from their partner. Or “win” them. At that time, I rationalized it as … well, I met someone and he happens to be married. Which of course I wasn’t happy about, but desire recognizes no boundaries. And there is some truth to that, but I also think getting so fixated on someone I couldn’t have was mostly about my psychological stuff.
Marcia,
“Of all symbols, why are a tractor? 🙂”
Not sure, but ask that to my LwL TO, Trifles 🍧. She has other (admittedly much more worthy) stuff on her mind these days. But all things considered, I am probably not so wrong to say the 🚜 symbol is her responsibility.
Marcia,
“I never saw it as a fight with another women if an LO had a partner/spouse. “
I had 16 glimmers with specific LO names, but only the last one had an official spouse. Never met her and could not care less. The morally masked LO claimed he was faithful or wanted to be faithful, so I respected that boundary strictly until he hinted otherwise. But he himself crossed the boundary with his pet lim/LO.
In my previous post, I was referring to those previously unattached LOs who had an existing gf or got a new gf, then I just walked away, enduring inevitable emotional pains. I believed that a real/big glimmer on their end would bring/drive them to me, just like me driven by my big Glimmer. I believed that was how everyone fell in a true love.
“And there is some truth to that, but I also think getting so fixated on someone I couldn’t have was mostly about my psychological stuff.”
Although having my own share of cptsd, I was not a driven competitor. I grew up in an environment in which 90-95%of what we wished or wanted could NOT be fulfilled, politically, culturally, or financially. So we were all environmentally molded as a half Stoic (without knowing the terminology). Few people would knowingly pursue what they could not have — that’s considered a “straightforward stupidity”. We were taught again and again to reduce or kill excessive or impossible desires.
But we could dream or fantasize what we could not have, like an ideal parent or a perfect lover lived in a book, just do not expect or believe or pursue them in reality.
Marcia,
“Of all symbols, why a tractor? 🙂”
“Not sure, but ask that to my LwL TO, Trifles”
I wondered what LaR would respond to that! 😉 I think it was him trying to impress the ladies here who have a thing for farmers! It does add a certain ruggedness to his character…
🍧,
I’m just waiting for the day that you tell us that your new beau has revealed a hidden John Deere locked in a shed that he keeps us his sleeve to impress the ladies.
Hope all is now 💐 in that garden!
Marcia,
Just want to inform you that: any of or combination of
🚜 ,🎩. 🌱 🌽. 🧊 — LaR
🍨, 🍮, 🍧 —Trifles
🔥 🍊 🍷 — Mila
🐝 🧙♀️ — Bewitched
💃— imho
👩🦰 🏃 — L.E.
💦, 😭 — MJ
🥃 — Adam
⛺️ — Just me and my obsession
🤖 — csc
😎 🍫 = Hu Chocolate
❄️ ,🐦🔥, 🍅, 🦜, 🏵️🌱🍅 — moi
🚜,
No sight of a John Deere yet but the crops are flourishing. I think Imho suggested I demand flowers daily (thanks for your well wishes, Imho!). But I think anyone would agree that it would be very greedy of me to ask for anything more than I’m already getting, which is a lot.
I hope all is well in LaR-LaR land!
Lol yeah, let there be flowers and let those crops flourish!!
Yep, everything is ticking along ok in LaRLaR land thanks 😀 (thinks about the Teletubbies). Throwing myself into some things both old and new now. It has been pretty beautiful weather here for months (like ever since your trip to our shores) but typically, rain forecast for the long holiday weekend!
Ha! Lol Why is Snow’s emoticon for me not a surprise? 🙂
Adam,
Now with the new freedom of your LE, do something really surprising, that is not 🥃 or 🍺 related, I promise you with another emoji soon!
❄️ 🥂 !
Trifles,
“I think it was him trying to impress the ladies here who have a thing for farmers! It does add a certain ruggedness to his character…”
If he wants ruggedness, he needs a couple of tats. The women will be lined up! 🙂
Marcia, that has tickled me at the end of a right old slog of a workday, so thank you.
“If he wants ruggedness, he needs a couple of tats.”
Yeah – maybe I could get one of a tractor?
That’s amusing me now, thinking of everyone at LwL getting their emoji as a tat.
And who is to say I don’t have a couple already?(Actually, who am I even kidding there – nobody)
“The women will be lined up!”
Unlikely, and even less likely if I get a tractor tat.
And anyway, usually you are such a positive influence, not encouraging any repeat of my limerent behaviours. I think you have already help me firmly establish – I DON’T WANT WOMEN LINING UP!
It was a dark and stormy night…
A knock was heard at the gate to the compound where the Welder and the Lawyer had taken refuge and become part of the community.
Peering through the slit in the reinforced steel door, who should be seen standing there in bib overalls and plaid shirt…
The Farmer!
👨🏭 👨🏼💼
🚪🛡️
👨🌾 🚜 🧊
👩🦰 🏃 & 🎩 🍺 & ⛺️
🍸 🍮 & 🐝 🧙♀️ & 💃 & 🔥 🍊 🍷 & 😎 🍫& 📕 & 🍅 🍑 🍹
👨🏭 👨🏼💼
🛡️ 🚪🛡️
👨🌾 🚜 🤺
⚔️👩🦰 🏃 & 🎩 🍺 & ⛺️ & 💦 ⚔️
🍸 🍮 & 🐝 🧙♀️ & 💃 & 🔥 🍊 🍷 & 😎 🍫& 🤖 &📕 & 🏵️ 🌱 🍅 🍑 🍹
🌌⛈️ 👨🏭 👨🏼💼🌩️🌑
⚔️🛡️ 🚪 🚪 🛡️⚔️
🛖💘 ❤️🧡💙💜💚💛💔🖤❣️🛖
🤺👨🌾 🚜 🤺
⚔️👩🦰 🏃 & 🎩 🍺 & ⛺️ & 💦 ⚔️
😤🤢🥔 💭 👮♂️👿👼 💩👖
🍸 🍧 🍮 🍨& 🐝 🧙♀️ & 💃 & 🔥 🍊 🍷 & 😎 🍫& 🤖 &📕 & 🏵️ 🌱 🍅 🍑 🍹
LaR,
“Yeah – maybe I could get one of a tractor?”
Ah … no. 🙂
“I DON’T WANT WOMEN LINING UP!”
Are you shouting at me? #RUDE 🙂
I see nothing wrong with a little flirtation with the coffee barista. 🙂
That’s a good topic for discussion: Can a limerent flirt and not think it’s a marriage proposal? ! 🙂
@Snow
“💦, 😭 — MJ”
Sounds about right 😂
“Can a limerent flirt and not think it’s a marriage proposal?”
@Marcia, LaR,
#NoICannot
“I think it was him trying to impress the ladies here who have a thing for farmers!”
@Trifles,
Marcia doesn’t mind it anyway because she’s a regular over on FarmersOnly.com.
She likes checking out the young, stud-ly Farmers. Or maybe the old feisty ones. I don’t know..
😉😂
https://imgur.com/a/cJOnZft
MJ,
“Marcia doesn’t mind it anyway because she’s a regular over on FarmersOnly.com.”
I look for the ones wearing buttless overalls. 🙂
I referenced you in a post on here. Find it …. 🙂
Ty for subscribing to my OnlyFarms.
Now watch me plow these fields
Oh hello hello there Old MacDonald – it seems a fellow 👨🌾 has joined us in L’Amoors? L.E’s prophecy played out very fast.
🦜,
(From your emojis) – so the men of LwL have to go out and joust while the ladies all get to sit and have a drink together? I love good old fashioned values!
🎩 🧊 ,
Of course, who let you guys have more physical strength? however, once you guarded the pub well, we chatty ladies would award you guys with top-niche full body massage.
I’m fairly traditional and even agree with 😎 🍫 that you guys have to take an initiative move when dating or just flirting in the Inn, particularly limerents filled L’🅰️m🅾️🅾️r!
“I referenced you in a post on here. Find it ….”
@Marcia,
I looked high and low and I couldn’t find it. I’m old and going blind. Not to mention I am at work now too, so timing for searching is minimal.
Unless you are referring to some of that intense glimmer stuff you wrote about, I’m lost.
(Which is nothing new for me, as you know.. 😂)
Give me a hint where to look. 🤔
MJ,
“Sounds like an interview I saw with Elizabeth Taylor on the Tonight Show. She had just turned 60. Was marrying a guy who was 40. She said her men were all the same age! Around 40. Whether she was younger or older. I thought it was funny. 🙂 Forty is a good age. Old enough to be fully baked but not too baked. Not crusty. (That one’s for MJ. :))”
Yes, I’m saying a man over 40 is crusty. 🙂
“Yes, I’m saying a man over 40 is crusty. 🙂”
@Marcia
Well I guess no matter how much I try to explain to you here the opposite, you’ll never believe any different. 😇
MJ,
“Well I guess no matter how much I try to explain to you here the opposite, you’ll never believe any different. 😇”
I’m afraid this is something women get to decide. It’s like … you can’t call yourself a ladies’ man. It’s a title that has to be given to you. By women. 🙂
“Yes, I’m saying a man over 40 is crusty. 🙂”
Unless anyone can prove me wrong, you just swung for the entire (visibls) male population of LwL all at once 😂
“It’s a title that has to be given to you. By women.”
Marcia,
This is all you need to know about me..
https://youtu.be/7rvegmZ5LOM?si=MUB4B63h1aRQvO7G
Thank you Lwl ladies and especially Ms. Marcia. (Shout-out to you gf) From the bottom of my heart.. It’s so wonderful to be 54 and not crusty.. 😂
MJ,
I’m sure you remember the song “Rhythm Nation” by Janet Jackson.
Substitute the word “crusty.”
“You are part of the Crusty Nation …” 🙂
Marcia,
Ha, crusty is the word of the day! It also fits well in another Janet Jackson song “Crusty, crusty boys, lemme see your crusty body move…” 😂
Can someone explain to me the word “crusty” in its physical or mental connotation? negative?
Thanks.
❄️
In the UK at least, “Crusty” is not exactly a term of endearment. It basically means easily irritated or annoyed. Grumpy, I guess!
⛺️,
Thank you, a good word! But then what does “crusty body” mean? Grumpy body?
❄️
Not one you’d want to sleep with, I think. Crusty skin – in other words, hard, scaly lumps.
I think….
⛺️x
Trifles,
“Ha, crusty is the word of the day! It also fits well in another Janet Jackson song “Crusty, crusty boys, lemme see your crusty body move…” ”
No, my first name ain’t baby. It’s Crusty. Mr. Crusty if you’re nasty! 🙂 I’m cracking myself up. 🙂
Snow,
“Can someone explain to me the word “crusty” in its physical or mental connotation? negative?”
In this connotation, it means old.
Lest you yell at me, he and I are the same age. 🙂
⛺️, 😎, 🍫, 🍮, 💦
Thanks for the English and cultural enlightenment!
🍨: Put good body🧴 on your MD after soaking him in a hot both with you!
Marcia: he sounds a lot older than you, with 💦 🪣 😭 (pulling his leg…)
Aside from few, most of 40+ 👻 👻-dudes here SOUND older than all our 👯♀️ sassy, feisty 👯♀️. Let’s remove “age”, “middle age” from our daily dictionary, like my Granny, so we could live up to joyful 104 years. 💃 🔥 💃
My great-grandma lived that long, too. I could have another 50 years left in me yet!
Here is the article — “Counterclockwise Study: The Science Behind Mindset and Ageing”
https://www.thecareside.com.au/post/counterclockwise-study-the-science-behind-mindset-and-ageing/
My Granny did not know anything about Mondern Science or Medicine, but I observed her (and Dad) mindset, attitude, and behaviors towards age or aging (not an active word in their mind)…. Coupled with her genes, she looked and behaved a generation younger (went through 2 wars with 5 children) and was often taken as my older uncle’s wife in his 40s. (She was 19 yrs older than him.)
We are what we think, feel, and do….
This is also connected to Mila’s post on “category mind game”, which imo would work on any “independent” state/beliefs of mind, but NOT on limerence, because the latter has this external factor, LO, addictively or helplessly intrude into one’s mind or the reality.
Snow,
“Marcia: he sounds a lot older than you, with 💦 🪣 😭 (pulling his leg…)”
Oh, no. He does actually sound much, much older!
I’m actually fairly hip (for my age). I could have a decent conversation about current hit music, for example. I couldn’t do a deep dive into it, but I could hold my own,
“I’m actually fairly hip (for my age).”
@Marcia..
#MeToo 🙂
MJ,
“#MeToo 🙂”
Self denial is a hell of a drug. 🙂
“In this connotation, it means old.
Lest you yell at me, he and I are the same age. 🙂”
Fyi.. My Ex and I are the same age. I’m a seasoned veteran of these type debates with her. So these discussions with the Feisty Old Broad are nothing new.. 😉
MJ,
“Fyi.. My Ex and I are the same age.”
Who you met when she was young. Your female age preference was young when you were young. It’s young, now that you’re middle-aged.
“It’s young, now that you’re middle-aged.”
Marcia,
You keep reminding me of that. As if I’m forgetful, like a old, crusty 54 yo. It’s just a preference. No rulebook in my world that says I must date younger. I have plenty of older lady crushes. Some you may not even know about yet. 😁
LO can’t help it she’s absolutely perfect at 30. Sabrina can’t help it she’s an Angel on earth at 25. What is so wrong with admiring and appreciating beauty when I see it? 😇😇
MJ,
“What is so wrong with admiring and appreciating beauty when I see it? 😇😇”
I get it. I don’t like crusty either.
I actually find myself getting more attracted to older men the older I get. Young ones are physically beautiful, yes, 😉 but the sight of gray hair at the temples gives them this air of experience and maturity that is very appealing. If I were single, I don’t want a 20-something who has little life experience, especially if I could’ve babysat them along with my own child, lol.
If 20 something me would have had the courage to approach an older woman I would have. But I didn’t. And it is why I dated so little at the age. Had no desire to put up with tumultuous girls. With age comes life experience. And that *wink wink* experience too. And for MOST by the time they are in their 30’s to 40’s have their $hit together and aren’t playing games.
Serial,
“Young ones are physically beautiful, yes, 😉 but the sight of gray hair at the temples gives them this air of experience and maturity that is very appealing.”
I was joking. Trying to point out to MJ … let he without crust cast the first bread! 🙂 I would prefer to date a man around my age. A little younger, a little older is fine. But not too much older and younger.
Yes, the young ones look good, but, for me, they’re not even on the playing field. They’re too young, almost in another sphere or dimension with their life experience and maturity. And none of that is appealing. It’s a deterrent.
I can’t get my head around wanting to date someone decades younger. And it’s .. as a general rule … for a younger woman/older man … it’s about money. The reverse of that …. older woman/younger man … it’s about sex. I guess if both parties are ok with that.
“But the sight of gray hair at the temples gives them this air of experience and maturity that is very appealing.”
@Marcia, SL,
Ladies, thanks for noticing my gray haired temples. Thats why I refuse to dye it..
I’m 54, financially stable, have a good heart and available for coffee anytime this weekend.
Which of (or both) you would like to meet up?
😁
#NotCrusty
MJ,
“Ladies, thanks for noticing my gray haired temples. Thats why I refuse to dye it..”
I think a man should dye it. That was Serial. Not me. 🙂
“I’m … financially stable”
Don’t care.
“have a good heart”
Ok. What else you got? 🙂
“Which of (or both) you would like to meet up?”
As I wrote before, I’m not interested in men who are interested in dating younger women. As I wrote on other posts, it’s a turn off for me. Notice I said “dating.” Not “appreciating.” We all have eyes.
That being said, if you want to get together as friends … get some shots, play some pool. I’d be down.
#NotInDenialAboutBeingCrust
🚜,
“But I never remember it striking me where it knocked me so far out of my stride I couldn’t function at all around the person. “
Then, you probably have not experienced Level 9 or 10 glimmer.
If you remember I told you/LwL before that I literally saw reddish halo 👼 over ET’s head for the first 2-3 years, every time as he was walking towards me in the hallway. Then my whole neural system would be hijacked, agitated/aroused, and the surrounding seemed dreamlike/surreal. I was not fully aware who/where I was — T-brain had gone missing! Only after coming to LwL, I learned about what was happened in to me.
“This is trouble” could not nearly describe the degree of that neural hijacking, the three words would not come into the mind as the Glimmering takes place. The world “trouble” never entered my mind even later. Actually no words could come into mind when you stood in front of LO or glimpsed him/her a bit far, or chitchatting with them, or locked gazing into each other’s subtly inquisitive eyes…
Words could come later when LO was not physically around, eg. When I stared into the deep night over the longest bridge in the world (leading to Hong Kong) on a top floor of a hotel, after finishing all Dad’s passing rituals…. ET’s face flashed in the dark sky intermittently with Dad’s face. The words vaguely came into my mind, “something may happen between this man and me…” “Why on earth such thought intruded inappropriately when I am so sad and spirit sunk?”….
That was two months before I slipped into involuntary LE, subconsciously assigning ET the role of a surrogate father.
Snow,
“If you remember I told you/LwL before that I literally saw reddish halo ”
Ha! I can relate. 🙂 Mine was surrounded by this white light. I remember one day looking at my most recent LO and thinking: I don’t remember his nose being that big. I think I had literally envisioned another person. Ha! Created another person. I hadn’t yet literally seen him clearly. “Seen” in the literal sense.
““This is trouble” could not nearly describe the degree of that neural hijacking, the three words would not come into the mind as the Glimmering takes place. ”
With me, maybe it was a click in my head. I remember thinking with one LO: “Him. I want him.” And that was it. Full-on fixation. Full on: What do I have to do to get him?
Marcia,
You were smart and lucky to know what you wanted from a LO.
“What do I have to do to get him” was almost never on my mind.
1. COO has censored/moralized such a thought in woman for thousands of years, just thinking of it makes women feeling a slut. In a Macho society, it’s expected men to do all the chase.
2. In my dating/ relationships, I did not have to do much, just linger my curiosity eyes a bit longer on someone (even accidentally), then I got just about anyone’s superficial affection at any age (from babies to grandparents), unless he’s a gay. (I had a sweet gay limerent for EA during my LE#6, and I glimmered at/chased a bit a gorgeous one for 6 months without knowing he is gay)
3. In the hindsight, I know I have always wanted/desired (since very young, probably after that trauma at age of 6) to be truly appreciated and loved inside out, not outside in, by an EQUAL hand — not smaller or bigger but equal sized in body, mind and soul. Even my parents, especially narc Mom, gave little (or opposite to) what a kid so needed during the crucial developmental age. Thus, the insecurity seed was deeply planted in me probably from infancy. I never had enough confidence to think about “what do I have to do to get him”, despite all the unwanted superficial attention.
Thus, my authentic desire was an astronomically tall order; only disappointments, failures, heartbreaks, one after another, followed after those Glimmers, w/o marriage or kid.
But now, I’m in the best place, without any residual longing of some “unknowns.” Thanks to LwL and my own ongoing individuation journey. But I do feel a bit of gray color you talked before, too free?
I think I subconsciously thought a lot “what do I have to do to get his heart/soul”… and I knew I am able to give back all mine in return, if it was a right hand to receive and hold…
Well, it was a dream, but one has to dream in order to go on…
Snow,
“COO has censored/moralized such a thought in woman for thousands of years, just thinking of it makes women feeling a slut. In a Macho society, it’s expected men to do all the chase.”
But wasn’t there a part of you that wanted to rebel against that narrative?
“In my dating/ relationships, I did not have to do much, just linger my curiosity eyes a bit longer on someone (even accidentally), then I got just about anyone’s superficial affection at any age (from babies to grandparents), unless he’s a gay.”
I mean, sometimes they chased me. But what I have found is that I don’t really like the ones who chase me. I want to do the picking. 🙂
I’m much different now. I don’t like the word “chase.” I will initiate. Or do my part. But I won’t do most or all of the work. I will not drive the bus. And when the other person isn’t responding or doing their part, I move on. I will not do what I used to do … the tactic of “reminding them I’m alive.” “Oh, I didn’t know you were going to be here …” Of course I knew.
“I had a sweet gay limerent for EA during my LE#6, and I glimmered at/chased a bit a gorgeous one for 6 months without knowing he is gay”
How could you chase for 6 months? Wouldn’t you either not catch him or catch him after 6 months?
I’ve had crushes on gay guys before. I think it’s possible one LO might have been gay. Although he did have a girlfriend, but there were rumors.
“In the hindsight, I know I have always wanted/desired (since very young, probably after that trauma at age of 6) to be truly appreciated and loved inside out, not outside in”
I understand what you are saying but I’m not sure how realistic it is. The person has to be attracted to the outside to want to get to know the inside.
” I never had enough confidence to think about “what do I have to do to get him””
It wasn’t confidence. It was more like a drive. Although when I was younger, I did think I had a good shot at them liking the outside at least.
“followed after those Glimmers, w/o marriage or kid.”
Did you want marriage and kids? I didn’t want children. I feel ambivalent about marriage.
“But now, I’m in the best place, without any residual longing of some “unknowns.” Thanks to LwL and my own ongoing individuation journey. ”
That’s good.
“But I do feel a bit of gray color you talked before, too free?”
You mean everything seems gray if you aren’t limerent?
“I think I subconsciously thought a lot “what do I have to do to get his heart/soul” ”
I was trying to seduce them. Or on some level entertain them.
Marcia,
“But wasn’t there a part of you that wanted to rebel against that narrative?”
Nope, too embarrassing, I don’t think I could ever break that inner taboo/molding during this life time. The cultural brainwash in COO is beyond most Westerner could comprehend, unless you have lived in it yourself .
“I mean, sometimes they chased me. But what I have found is that I don’t really like the ones who chase me. I want to do the picking.”
I was almost repelled by any man who chased me even they meant to be loving, unless I glimmered at them FIRST. Then, there was not much difficult to get them to make further romantic moves. It was more difficult to push them away when dating did not work out. I did not like hurting anyone’s emotions.
“I’m much different now. I don’t like the word “chase.” I will initiate. Or do my part. But I won’t do most or all of the work. I will not drive the bus. And when the other person isn’t responding or doing their part, I move on.”
Absolutely 🆎 agree with you on this. Relationship has to be a mutual tango or playing ping-pang by two matching hands. Being clumsy at beginning is fine, making mistakes is fine, taking turns to lead or be led is fine…. as long as both sides are making similar efforts to progress. Honest, tactful, and kind communications is a must.
“How could you chase for 6 months? Wouldn’t you either not catch him or catch him after 6 months?”
This gay guy was not from my work, so was hard to get to see him. I had to “break a bit of rules” to see him at his work without knowing his sexual orientation. After 6 months, he brought his boyfriend in, so killed my glimmer in one week — T-mind work.
“I understand what you are saying but I’m not sure how realistic it is. The person has to be attracted to the outside to want to get to know the inside.”
Oh, INFP Sis, there was never any attraction issues, but too much unwanted attention on my end. The problem for me was primarily that they did not make enough efforts in getting to know my inside, or not smart enough to see/understand my inside. I was a bookworm/lover of classical literature, if they did not read enough in the similar arena, where would similar mentality or sentimentality come from?
“It wasn’t confidence. It was more like a drive. Although when I was younger, I did think I had a good shot at them liking the outside at least.”
I did not know what “drive” is back then; no public education or even gossips, it’s a taboo issue. Liking my outside? I had to cover my face with a scarf so as not to get any unwanted attention/stares in the street. But due to insecurity my parents and traumas installed in me, I never felt/believed that anyone else would truly love me for who I was inside. So I focused on studies and books, wanting to be a walking encyclopedia, no one could ever say that “she has a face, but no brains.” Like my pushy parents, I became annoying perfectionist.
“Did you want marriage and kids? I didn’t want children. I feel ambivalent about marriage.”
Oh, yes. When I was 10, I wanted a fairytale marriage and 10 kids! Back then, It would be a disgrace not to marry or have kids. So following the COO cultural script, I wanted to have what others normally have. I was a driven perfectionist, thus a trophy family was wanted, whether I knew or not what it means to be a good wife or an adequate mother.)
“You mean everything seems gray if you aren’t limerent?”
Yes. But not as much gray as prior to this last limerence.
“I was trying to seduce them. Or on some level entertain them.”
Nay, not me at all! Due to my traumatic experiences, I wanted to run away from most of men, (forget about seducing or entertaining any or the other way around). But biologically/neurologically, I could not help glimmer at good looking or feminine-looking men (never any woman). I could not, no one could, fight to beat up my own DNA codes — the nature’s designing! No philosophical isms could stop our neuron’s spinning!
Maybe I desire emotional/mental/soulful love much more than a physical love? Not that I am against the latter in any light, I had great lovers — not LOs, but none of them brought me emotional fulfillment or happiness. I felt very lonely being with them. I 🆎 know how lonely it could feel to have PA-only without EA. Thus, I don’t pursue or accept PA-only, not even from available men.
Song of the Day: “Mandy” – Barry Manilow (1974)
It came on the radio, yesterday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFwCCmEA0Nk
This song was all over the radio when I was a love-sick puppy over The Crush in college. I really like it. It doesn’t really have any relationship to The Crush. It’s part past of a girl I drove away in HS and part prophecy WRT LO #2.
You know, L.E. – somebody here is bound to be reading this post and seeing their LOs name.
An interesting light conversation topic that I bet hardly anyone would feel able to answer … how many people have found a song title with their LO’s name in it? And of those, how many of those have listened to it on repeat play?! (I got this idea ‘from a friend’, clearly)
To LaR:
Thankfully never. No SO/LO has ever turned up in a song title that I am aware of. Not that I know every song on the planet, but I sure remember “Mandy.”
It was over-played, but I liked it then and still do. Too maudlin, like the also-overplayed “Feelings,” which I hate, but “Mandy” doesn’t bother me.
There are at least 4 songs with LO #2’s name in the title an 2 with LO #4’s name in the title.
None of them are on a Playlist.
How many people have found a song title with their LO’s name in it? And of those, how many of those have listened to it on repeat play?!
My LO has a common (but not too common) older Ladies name. There are well over a hundred of them, with her name in the title on Apple. So on the playlist I created for her, I list one with her name, per every 10 other songs. They range in style and emotion but most of them sing of her beauty, charm and perfection. Which are exactly the most correct sentiments for LO..
Needless to say, many of these are on repeat quite often, when I’m listening to music..
😂😂😂
Mandy is one of my father’s favorite songs. So I heard it a lot. It could have been the short “nickname” for LO’s first name. She just didn’t go by her first name. And then there is episode of Simpsons where Mindy becomes infatuated with Homer and the episode borrows the tune replacing Mandy with Mindy.
And then there is this one that youtube so cruelly put in a mix it made for me last week, which just the full damn Montey.
Amanda — Boston
https://youtu.be/EuYtbAa1pi0?si=4-NM2IVsoVdzIHBX
I have a question for anyone who has disclosed to LO. How much detail did you go into, and did it make things more or less awkward?
ND,
Disclosure is different for everyone. What you disclose, when you disclose, why you disclose, where you disclose and how you disclose depend a lot of things.
If you haven’t, I recommend you hit the Archive at the bottom and search for “disclose.” Copy the link of comments that interest you.
Try this one:
https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-to-get-rid-of-limerence/#comment-1341
To LE:
Thank you. I appreciate the help.
I disclosed fishing for LO to reciprocate my feelings. She didn’t. The initial disclosure was about a 5 minute conversation and I only said ‘had feelings’ which in vague but understood to mean romantic feelings. Over the next few days we had more in depth conversations where I reinforced my romantic interest in her and kinda told her the backstory of when I fell for her and what I liked about her. I never said anything referring to limerence though.
Today, over 2 years later, it is awkward. We talk to each other in superficial work terms because we have to but avoid most all personal life talk. For instance, I just had a positive big life event happen. I told all my other coworkers personally about it but I did not say anything to LO about it. I keep her distanced and she does the same with me. I have no idea about most of her personal life. The disclosure created this rift.
I just came across something interesting…
Basically, this person said, that if you had a parent who did not show healthy love, and you were told, essentially, “they do love you, they just don’t show it”…that situation might lead to limerence in the future. Essentially, you started out as a young child, or young person with an idea of love, a definition of it, that was already confusing.
I know there is no one route to limerence, but, this really spoke to me. My father was challenging. He suffered from mental health issues, but to a child, what that looks like is just…”My Dad doesn’t care about me enough to be nice to me”. He would treat both my Mom and me horribly during his spells.
But, I *still* believe he loved me. I still feel I know he loved me, loved us both. I was told he did. He told me he did…But when he told me, it was like it was hard for him to say, like it caused him pain to tell me. It never felt like a joyful expression, always with some complex thing underneath. And his behavior… anyone looking from outside would have said we were crazy to believe he loved us.
I was told by my Mom that “he *does* love you, he just has a hard time showing it”.
Now, look at me, a chronic limerent. Believing there are feelings from another, that might not be there. Believing whatever little signals I got were something indicative of more… Living in that uncertainty, the ultimate distraction…and yet, where a wounded part of me is probably verrrrry comfortable.
Anyway, I thought this was interesting. I am not complaining, my life has been what it has been. My feelings for my parents are complex, and I do not blame them.
…I always hear that attachment issues lead to limerence. But I have never heard this, specifically. (Being told a neglectful or harmful parent DOES love you, and forming a confused concept of love, not really understanding the signals…getting so stuck in it, so obsessive over it…)
Wanted to put this here in case it helps anyone else think further. I know I will be thinking about this as I go forward, trying to understand my limerence and not have another episode, but to find real connection.
x csc
csc,
“…I always hear that attachment issues lead to limerence.”
Yeah, but your attachment style comes from the way you were raised. It’s all interconnected.
Basically, you’ll look as an adult to recreate whatever blueprint of love you had as a child. It’s all subconscious until you become aware of it.
Thanks @Marcia
Yes, I’ve always known I have attachment issues because of how I was treated as a child…that part I am well-versed in….I think about it often. and i have known for a long time that attachment (or not!) is responsible for many of my aspects, as an adult.
But what I never specifically connected was the messaging *around* the neglect and emotional abuse. The messaging was “yes, but he loves you.”
I always saw his behavior as the thing. But now I am seeing it was his behavior but ALSO the type of comfort I was offered, around it. My mom would say that he “actually does love you” to comfort me.
I look at the fact I can’t figure out if someone likes me, and read in that they do…the mixed messages and breadcrumbs must mean they love me and just can’t show it. Just like I was told, about Dad.
I don’t want to blame my parents. I just find it interesting it didn’t occur to me that the messaging around the attachment is also at play.
CsC
“I look at the fact I can’t figure out if someone likes me, and read in that they do…the mixed messages and breadcrumbs must mean they love me and just can’t show it. Just like I was told, about Dad.”
I wonder if that’s a fairly common thing. I mean, at least for older generations of parents. The mother trying to compensate for the absent father.
“I don’t want to blame my parents. ”
I’m not sure who else you would blame. 🙂
In all seriousness, I don’t think anyone grows up without any “stuff.” I don’t think it’s possible. At some point (Idk … age 25 or 30 or so) I think the person has to realize it’s their “stuff” to deal with.
“I just find it interesting it didn’t occur to me that the messaging around the attachment is also at play.”
I’m sure she’s been mentioned on here before, but the Crappy Childhood Fairy (on YouTube) talks a lot about childhood neglect/abuse and limerence.
I do think childhood is a big contributing factor for limerence. Maybe basic temperament/personality. Maybe neurological wiring, as Snow suggested.
ha! @Marcia
you called it! It was actually a Crappy Childhood Fairy interview (she was being interviewed by another therapist – link below – it is long, the moment is at 47:38)
47:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlBynIk25qU
re: blaming, no, i don’t want to blame them, because they likely had their reasons for doing whatever they did. should they have known better? yes. but, should i have known better than to get into my limerences? yes. but somehow, none of us knew better. i do not feel they are to blame. i only *wish* it had been different, and that is sad. but it wasn’t. not a big fan of blaming people in my life, in general. but like you say, i see it as my “stuff”, their “stuff”…etc. 🙂
yes, i like the Fairy’s content. It can be hard to hear, sometimes, she is very frank! But, I do feel she really understands the deal with limerence. I also like Following Fenna. Big fan of her content. It’s been very helpful to me, as I went NC…
It’s interesting what you say about older generations. Yes, my parents were slightly older than the Baby Boomer generation. I do feel they had different ideas and norms around psychology. And I wonder what their lives (especially my Dad’s) were like. He never talked about his childhood to any great extent…and that probably says it all about what kind of childhood he had…sigh!
Csc,
“re: blaming, no, i don’t want to blame them, because they likely had their reasons for doing whatever they did.”
I definitely blame mine. One in particular. Could this parental have done better? Most definitely. Were they selfish and narcissistic, almost to the point of it being pathological? Yes. But I can’t change it. And blaming and being angry … it won’t get me anywhere.
And by my age … it’s my “stuff” to deal with.
“should i have known better than to get into my limerences? yes. but somehow, none of us knew better. ”
Well in my case, you’re right. I should have known better. I was middle-aged by the time I met my last LO. Even if I didn’t know what limerence was, I certainly could sense a pattern in my intense attractions. I didn’t have to be a genius to know I shouldn’t follow down the rabbit hole again.
But … I WANTED to. That’s the key. I did what I wanted. I have to own that. I did it to myself.
” Following Fenna.”
Yes. I think you were the one who posted a link to her site on here. I watched some of her videos. Very insightful.
She’s absolutely right about barriers and limerence and what happens when the limerent spouse leaves for the LO. It usually doesn’t work out. Very, very few affairs lead to remarriage. And percentage wise, most second marriages end in divorce.
I’d venture a guess that, once the limerence dies, the limerent realizes they were more compatible with their spouse and regrets the effect leaving had on their kids.
“It’s interesting what you say about older generations. Yes, my parents were slightly older than the Baby Boomer generation. I do feel they had different ideas and norms around psychology. ”
I think really, up until maybe Gen X became parents, it wasn’t really expected that fathers be more present emotionally.
@Marcia
…me too. i had a pattern, and then the last le (which i refer to as “the mother of all le’s) … like you say, i KNEW better…but…tra la laaaa, went skipping down that path into the gaping maw of limerence.
so, i was 48 when that began, i’ll be 50 this year. i have been limerent since i first saw a boy i liked, then a respite between age 30 and age 46. but, in the past 3 years (since i was 46) i’ve had 3 le’s…
i only learned what limerence was when i was in the second midlife le.
i know what you mean. it’s so hard in midlife. midlife is it’s own special hell and then, we have the limerent tendency…
and honestly, i ask myself on the daily “was i surrounded by this many hot young men when i was 20-30? i don’t remember them being so hot. i remember most of them were not attractive to me in the slightest.”
but now…ugh.
welcome to cougarland. population: me
i’m glad you liked the Fenna content. someone else here had mentioned her, and i found her a perfect fit. i love her sense of humor, and that she really knows how it feels to be limerent. i also love her stark and unrelenting advocacy for NC, which is what i desperately needed to give me the stamina to try it.
as for GenX dads…that makes a lot of sense! many of the GenX dads i know are great. they’re not perfect people, but damn, they try to be loving to their kids. i’m sure that’s not global, but, i’m pretty impressed by the guys i know. their style of dad-hood is totally alien to my experience, but thank goodness for that.
Csc,
” but, in the past 3 years (since i was 46) i’ve had 3 le’s…”
Are you sure they’re all LEs? Did you have transference? I can only speak for myself, of course.
I had one at 19, one at 25, one at 28, one at 32 one at 34 (almost 35) and one at 40. And with the exception of the one at 35, I was over all of them before I met and became limerent for the next LO. But the one I met at 35ish … and then the one at 40. That was transference.
Now, during my last LE, I did have a crush and what little that happened between us helped me, at the very least, get distracted from my LO. But my feelings never rose to the level of intensity for my LO.
“i know what you mean. it’s so hard in midlife. midlife is it’s own special hell and then, we have the limerent tendency…”
I wouldn’t recommend midlife to anyone. Don’t get old. That’s what I’d tell my younger self.
“and honestly, i ask myself on the daily “was i surrounded by this many hot young men when i was 20-30? i don’t remember them being so hot. i remember most of them were not attractive to me in the slightest.””
Are you into younger guys? Good for you! It’s about damn time. It’s SOOOOO often to the point of a cringey cliche the other way around. It’s the middle-aged men who have younger female LOs.
But personally … I can’t get my head around it. Younger men just don’t register for me. I mean, sure, I notice if they’re attractive. But I wouldn’t say I even feel attracted to them. And I don’t know why they’d be interested in me. I’m old enough to be their mother.
“I also love her stark and unrelenting advocacy for NC, which is what i desperately needed to give me the stamina to try it.”
It really is the only way to get over an LO. No limerent wants to go NC. They do everything possible not to, twisting themselves into contortions trying to find a workaround. I did.
“as for GenX dads… but, i’m pretty impressed by the guys i know. :
Yes and no. Sometimes I think it’s gone too far the other direction. I don’t mean with emotional expression but helicopter parenting. Gen X was neglected. Latchkey kids and the like. They’ve overcompensated. (I’m making a sweeping statement here.)
@Marcia
Hm…that’s interesting about your LE history. Did you go NC with each of them, or, did you detach in some other way?
As for transference, it’s interesting that happened for you (to you?)…to answer your question, no, none of mine were transference. I see the chain of them as a connected behavior of mine, across them, but, one did not replace the other. As it were, they are like…pearls I have strung on a cord. The cord being my love of men in their early 30’s.
Yes, I seem to have a fetish for very handsome, fit young men in their early 30’s. Over that age and it gets…boring and stale. I will say, my sense of humor is that of an 8th grade boy, so…if I can find a younger LO who is emotionally immature, that would be my “specialty”. uhhhh
It’s awful. I’m a horrible lech. I am probably the female parallel of the older men here who are obsessing over young, unattainable female LO’s. Except, they are probably involved with well-meaning, intelligent, emotionally sophisticated young women, and I am involving myself with flaky, stupid, careless and clueless young men.
It’s weird, Marcia. I am not sure of your age, but I will say, if you are not attracted by these boys, don’t start. Many, many reasons not to start…
Anyway, if I can serve as an antidote counterpoint female to the many male lims who are after the younger ladies, I am happy to. Even though it will require me to endure my own excruciating, quixotic pain, at least you can extract something positive from my ridiculous midlife limerent sinkhole! ha
@Marcia
“Did you go NC with each of them, or, did you detach in some other way?”
Yes. I left the job where we met or I left school or they broke up with me or I broke up with them … even with the one at 35. We had no contact after we stopped dating, minus a few embarrassing blips of me reaching out, but it had been years. They were all out of my life.
“As for transference, it’s interesting that happened for you (to you?)…”
It was just that once. And it was immediate. Met the most recent LO … and the other one was out of my head. Traded one addiction for another!
“The cord being my love of men in their early 30’s.”
So all your LOs were in their early 30s? I mean, once you were a young woman? And they’ve all stayed the same age … now that you’re middle-aged?
Sounds like an interview I saw with Elizabeth Taylor on the Tonight Show. She had just turned 60. Was marrying a guy who was 40. She said her men were all the same age! Around 40. Whether she was younger or older. I thought it was funny. 🙂 Forty is a good age. Old enough to be fully baked but not too baked. Not crusty. (That one’s for MJ. :))
“Yes, I seem to have a fetish for very handsome, fit young men in their early 30’s.”
I fully support this. 🙂
“Over that age and it gets…boring and stale.”
In what way?
“It’s awful. I’m a horrible lech. I am probably the female parallel of the older men here who are obsessing over young, unattainable female LO’s.”
I don’t know if I’d call you a lech. If I remember correctly, the younger female LOs are at least in their late 20s. They’re self-supporting adults. It just feels … well, clueless to me. Not understanding the age difference. Because I remember being that age.
“and I am involving myself with flaky, stupid, careless and clueless young men.”
See, that’s how I remember young men. Maybe more so with guys in their mid to late 20s. They were careless and callous with the way they treated women.
“It’s weird, Marcia. I am not sure of your age,”
54. I cringe to type that out. I had gotten some medical records the other day and left them on my desk. I passed by and saw the age listed and thought: What is that? Who is it referring to? And then I realized it was referring to me! It seems like an age that happens to somebody else.
” but I will say, if you are not attracted by these boys, don’t start. Many, many reasons not to start…”
For me, personally, I can’t see trying to seduce any of them. Not if they were just with someone who’s 25.
“Anyway, if I can serve as an antidote counterpoint female to the many male lims who are after the younger ladies, I am happy to.”
Well, some female poster on here has to represent! Chicks before d**ks! 🙂
“Even though it will require me to endure my own excruciating, quixotic pain, at least you can extract something positive from my ridiculous midlife limerent sinkhole! ”
I’m assuming you’re married ?
I’d like to think I’ve gotten over my anxious attachment issues, and subsequently it seems to have helped with my limerence tendencies (except for a recent LE for LO1).
Today I remembered my best friend in the 5th grade describing what most likely was limerance for a girl in our grade. I watched him suffer with the unrequited love until we parted ways and went to different high schools. Little did I know that I would soon suffer the same fate in hs.
Iirc, he told me he had been in love with her since the 3rd grade.
Morning all!
Loads of food for thought from Limerence Front, csc, Marcia, LE, ❄️, 🚜 and others in the above posts and I read them yesterday and had composed a reply but had to close window quickly before I could hit “post”
@Marcia – of course you were joking. My brain misread it like a typical limerent with lousy social skills. 😂
So this morning, please could you all hit me with your best descriptions of unpleasant sensations?
I realised that deflecting thoughts of LO with a concocted negative fantasy, complete with script, was too long-winded and I just need something fast that my brain can conjure quickly in the moment and that creates immediate emotion. Each day I’ll have a different sensory image with which to respond to intrusive thoughts.
Ones I’ve thought of so far:
Stepping on a Lego piece
Catching a broken nail (finger or toe) on clothing
Reaching into a fruit bowl and sticking my finger straight into a mouldy orange
Picking up a rough brick with my bare hands
Anything that is quick and easy to think up and the thought of which causes an immediate feeling of discomfort.
Go!
Monochrome
I don’t remember where I read this (might have even been from Dr L) that engaging the executive brain through motor functions is a good way to interrupt intrusive thoughts. As is in if she came in an intrusive thought while I was sitting at my desk I would get up and go for a short walk. Or if I was alone in the office I’d just pace the office some. That way my executive brain had to concentrate on my motor functions not my limerent brain’s intrusive thought. It’s not always good long term but for the most part it would immediately interrupt the intrusive thought and get me back on tract.
Hi Monochrome,
Great idea! Here’s mine
Physical discomfort:
Dead leg
Biting tongue/lip/cheek by accident while chewing
Stubbed toe
Other more emotionally painful triggers:
That time I embarrassed myself at work / family event (we’ve all got examples!)
Financial embarrassment (forgot my wallet) at coffee shop
Tripped over while trying to look cool
Gave a really bad presentation at work….
…
Here’s one: ‘Missing’ a step on the stairs & momentarily feeling like you’re about to fall through the earth.
Focus on the pain(&humiliation) – the only thing that’s *real*.
The body’s reaction to chalk scratching on a blackboard?
….Or even worse, fingernails dragging down a chalkboard ?
Eating a huge plate of the food you despise. Anyone fancy undercooked offal or raw fish eyes?
Your head in a cage full of spiders or snakes or whatever else scares you.
Imagine your LO’s head has been replaced by a person/ politician you really do not like. I won’t name names, as I don’t want to be controversial.
Also, a more physical suggestion is putting a rubber band on your wrist and snapping it hard when you think of LO. This is not exactly a new idea!
Adam, Bewitched, LF, LaR and Imho: Thank you! All excellent suggestions. Adam, interesting about motor functions, although it’s not always practical. Today I have been stepping on a Lego piece; blue 2×3 block. Maybe tomorrow I’ll miss a step.
Snow,
I pasted these two posts together. I think there’s another response from you I might have missed, but I can’t find it.
“But he himself crossed the boundary with his pet lim/LO.”
He had a PA with this person?
“I believed that a real/big glimmer on their end would bring/drive them to me, just like me driven by my big Glimmer. I believed that was how everyone fell in a true love.”
So you thought that if they already had a GF, they would act on the glimmer and leave the GF to be with you?
” I don’t do much research, unwilling to follow anyone else’s examples. ”
I mean, if I’m going to buy a house or some other big decision, yes, I’m going to do some research.
“Importantly, I seldom make impulse moves”
I can be very impulsive. There’s a whole other person that pops out sometimes. One I have to contain.
” buying a bag of chips or even Hu Chocolates — unable to take just a piece a day, but a whole bar if I have them.”
Those Hu chocolates are good. I can have a whole bar in the kitchen and not eat too much. I buy the dark chocolate. I like it but I don’t LOVE it. It doesn’t tempt me because it’s not super sweet. (It’s not like an LO. :)) It just takes the bite off my sugar cravings. But Pepperidge Farm Milano Double Dark Chocolate cookies … which are very sweet …. I’d eat the whole bag if it was in front of me.
“I meant that every Glimmer naturally happened that way, I never had pre-requisition. I only noticed the same pattern after coming to LwL, and wondered why.”
Ah, ok. This site has helped me understand a lot of my patterns, too.
“Yes. we did. I absolutely dislike a man to be the aggressor, although wanted him to initiate a romantic move.”
Maybe “aggressor” is not the right word. Initiator. I like a man to approach, get my number, ask me out. I can do it, but I’d prefer he do it.
The word “chase” implies not taking no for an answer. That I don’t like. If one party is saying no or not showing interest, the other needs to back off. A.) It’s icky to push and B.) It shows a lack of self-respect.
“Then I would equalize same amount in same degrees for the following romantic Tango. Trifles’ current MD (mind reader) is leading their romantic dance.”
I agree. It’s a dance. But I like the man to lead. I just find it sexier.
“In all previous relationships (not so much of a LE) after I glimmered, available LOs all reciprocated emotionally or physically within two months, what’s left to encourage?”
But somebody usually has to make the first move. That’s what I meant by the initiator.
“Only the last one was unavailable”
I’d consider anyone with a girlfriend unavailable as well. Not counting the last LO who was married, were there LOs who had girlfriends? Or did I misunderstand you?
” She sounded like a sweet, mother-hen, he’s a henpecked hubby.”
The hen-peckedness didn’t turn you off?
“Technically, they should not be considered as LOs, but my OCD brain tended to ruminate about them and my interactions with them. Yes, I did date LO#3, 4.5, 6, but not #4.7 — too narc-like, also working in the same office.”
4.5 ? 4.7 ? You’ve catalogued them! 🙂
“Dad was a professor of Russian”
History or the language?
” Also, I was mentally weak right after Dad’s death and then sick due to the development of Hashimoto thyroiditis and consequential lymphoma.”
That’s when limerence sneaks in. When we’re experiencing mental and physical challenges.
“Coming from another culture and somewhat rebellious, I don’t follow the cultural script here or off my COO, so I’m in my own no-man’s land/nest. I’m comfortable and content being alone, better than with “wrong” companies.”
I meant more along the lines of making conversation/small talk. There are certain protocols. Someone takes out pictures of their kids, and you’re supposed to respond a certain way. Some of that, sometimes, depending on the situation, feels inauthentic to me.
“As we previously discussed, I’d be willing to date a LO with Level 5-6 glimmer and 6-7 compatibility. Compatibility can be learned/trained and organically grow together.”
I think you can grow compatibility. But I also think some of it has to be there organically, from the start. You “click” as people. This is someone you’d be friends with even if the attraction wasn’t there.
Marcia,
“I pasted these two posts together. I think there’s another response from you I might have missed, but I can’t find it.”
I responded 4 last night, I can’t pin them down either. It’s not that important, just a bit chit here or there. You often posed “provoking” questions, to me and others, so it’s “inspired” to answer them even just to myself.
“He had a PA with this person?”
At least once a week rendezvous for the following 2-3 years.
“So you thought that if they already had a GF, they would act on the glimmer and leave the GF to be with you?”
That’s how I natively believed that Level 10 Glimmer could make one to do so, because I knew I could — a “victim” of classical romance novels.
“I mean, if I’m going to buy a house or some other big decision, yes, I’m going to do some research.”
For logistical matters, I would do like you. But I was talking about relationship/friendship matters, in which another complex, unpredictable human being is involved.
“I can be very impulsive. There’s a whole other person that pops out sometimes. One I have to contain.”
I dared a lot in COO just to tease communism’s authorities and secretly break established rules and norms, some of them were simply INHUMAN! I 🆎 detest authoritarian system, authoritative figures, and authoritative tones. Thought polices are evil creatures on this earth!
“But Pepperidge Farm Milano Double Dark Chocolate cookies … which are very sweet …. I’d eat the whole bag if it was in front of me.”
I rarely dare to buy them (maybe once every two years), or they’d disappear in a couple of hours. I can’t keep any kind of junk snacks at home, so I keep fruits around. I love dark chocolate, too.
“Ah, ok. This site has helped me understand a lot of my patterns, too.”
LwL has demonstrated so many of life (relationship particularly) puzzlement to me and helped me understand my past relations. I was a “toddler” in romance matters before coming here! In COO, romance was/is never so complicated like what I hear in this site.
“Maybe “aggressor” is not the right word. Initiator. I like a man to approach, get my number, ask me out. I can do it, but I’d prefer he do it.”
I ONLY liked/wished a man to do it, if I already glimmered at him and hinted to him with my eyes. Otherwise, I don’t like to be approached at all. I was approached in public everywhere I travelled and had a hard time to run away them. (even last month in Venice by that restaurant chef, owner and father, ridiculous!)
“The word “chase” implies not taking no for an answer. That I don’t like. If one party is saying no or not showing interest, the other needs to back off. A.) It’s icky to push and B.) It shows a lack of self-respect.”
Totally agree. Including the last LE, no LO had given me even a vague “No” even if they were not available (LO2 & 7). Otherwise, I would not slip into the LE. When I was LO or socially “matched” with a dating candidate (still applicable in COO), I gave a clear, 🆎 NO immediately. I had no interest or time to deal with any of them: some kind, some gook looking, some achieved, some eye-drooling “poppies”, etc… Never cared for their attention or validation.
“I agree. It’s a dance. But I like the man to lead. I just find it sexier.”
If he’s my glimmered man, of course, I’d like him to lead a bit. But between sexy and safe, I have to choose the latter first. I encountered a lot of sexy men, but rare “safe” ones — physically, mentally, emotionally and psychologically.
“But somebody usually has to make the first move. That’s what I meant by the initiator.”
Yes, they all did, including ET. But I thought it was futile (the 2nd year), so turned down his causal invite for a tea/coffee. He clearly saw my glimmer even before he said his first “hello….” (more extrovert than me!)
“I’d consider anyone with a girlfriend unavailable as well. Not counting the last LO who was married, were there LOs who had girlfriends? Or did I misunderstand you?”
LO2 had a girlfriend, so I was his secret side-chick (he was the guy on his knees begging my stay in the end of one year). Due to that PA-only, very lonely experience, I made an oath never to deal with another attached man (having PA), and kept it for decades. The oath was almost broken a couple of times during last LE. But Athena in me up-regrettably beat Aphrodite in every temptation (ET’s pet/LO’s existence helped actually — I refused to lowly compete with any other gf or lover, and became 2nd side-chick 😱 in his Sensor fuel-matrix?), although he was the most attractive LO among them all, and my Glimmer saw myself most in his eyes….
”The hen-peckedness didn’t turn you off?”
Nope. I could care less about his domestic life, every family life is more or less same. In the hindsight, I don’t think I would get together with him, even if he got divorced. He does not have strong backbones like my own and was mean to play those “pull-n-push” games to keep me hooked. I never did even once to my pet/lims. To me, dally with another person’s heart is the worst “crime”, which is never punished, except by possible future Karmas.
“4.5 ? 4.7 ? You’ve catalogued them! 🙂
Yes. After coming to LwL, I finally listed all the names in the correct timeline… there were more than 10 between LO4/SO and LO5, excluding those nameless app men/dates.
History or the language?
Language. Dad spoke like a native Russian without accent, based on my native-Russian gf. One of Mom’s LOs also spoke fluent Russian, trained in Moscow as a spy… I accidentally learned about tons of others secrets in my life, I wish I had not… 😇 (ET and Mom don’t know what I know about their LOs, respectively.)
“I meant more along the lines of making conversation/small talk. There are certain protocols. Someone takes out pictures of their kids, and you’re supposed to respond a certain way. Some of that, sometimes, depending on the situation, feels inauthentic to me.”
Ah, I know what you mean. I was terrible in small/petty talks (short of a lot of cultural references here) and always ran away from them in COO. But I’m getting better nowadays, since I’m more relaxed and insecurities have gone. I have more patients to listen, even the topic was irrelevant or unrelated to me, I sincerely ask them questions.
“I think you can grow compatibility. But I also think some of it has to be there organically, from the start. You “click” as people. This is someone you’d be friends with even if the attraction wasn’t there.”
Totally agree with you here. That’s why level 6-7 compatibility is needed to begin with. My intuition was almost never wrong in this arena; but my eyes need to see their eyes first before anything else…
Have a good evening!
Snow,
“At least once a week rendezvous for the following 2-3 years.”
I didn’t realize he was actually having an affair.
“That’s how I natively believed that Level 10 Glimmer could make one to do so, because I knew I could ”
That’s what I thought of my last LO. The attraction was so strong! Of course I could lure him away!
“But I was talking about relationship/friendship matters, in which another complex, unpredictable human being is involved.”
That’s true. Just when you think you have someone figured out … they do something screwy.
“Thought polices are evil creatures on this earth!”
I shan’t argue with you on that one. 🙂
“I rarely dare to buy them (maybe once every two years), or they’d disappear in a couple of hours. ”
You have discipline. I’m very, very good … or very, very bad. I’m sitting here with a bag of those cookies right now! They are everything I thought they’d be and more. 🙂
“I can’t keep any kind of junk snacks at home, so I keep fruits around.”
Fruit is a health food. 🙂 I don’t consider it a sweet like chocolate, which is a food fit for the gods. 🙂
” In COO, romance was/is never so complicated like what I hear in this site.”
But is it us LIMERENTS who make it complicated?! 🙂 I think it is!
“I ONLY liked/wished a man to do it, if I already glimmered at him and hinted to him with my eyes. Otherwise, I don’t like to be approached at all. I was approached in public everywhere”
Just wait until you get old. Most of that attention that irritates you now … will stop, and you’ll miss it. I know you’re going to argue with me on that one, but I’m totally serious. You will miss it.
“Totally agree. Including the last LE, no LO had given me even a vague “No” even if they were not available (LO2 & 7).”
Because they wanted the attention! They wanted you as an option! They wanted you on standby. On the backburner. It’s extremely selfish. It’s a horrible thing to do to someone.
That’s why it’s so, so, so important to pay more attention to someone’s behavior. It was a very hard lesson for me to learn. Why be so attentive if they have no intention of following through?
“When I was LO or socially “matched” with a dating candidate (still applicable in COO), I gave a clear, 🆎 NO immediately. I had no interest or time to deal with any of them”
I’m the same way. I don’t have the energy for keeping a bunch of people on standby who I’m not really interested in.
“If he’s my glimmered man, of course, I’d like him to lead a bit.”
Well, sometimes you might not notice someone who noticed you. I don’t see anything wrong with an approach. As long as it ‘s nice and pleasant. It doesn’t bother me. Even if I’m not necessarily interested. No harm, no foul.
” But between sexy and safe, I have to choose the latter first. I encountered a lot of sexy men, but rare “safe” ones — physically, mentally, emotionally and psychologically.”
I’ve had the opposite. So much safety … I’m falling into a sexual coma! 🙂
I’m being sarcastic. But you get the idea.
“ET’s pet/LO’s existence helped actually — I refused to lowly compete with any other gf or lover, and became 2nd side-chick 😱 in his Sensor fuel-matrix?)”
I wouldn’t like that either. I don’t blame you. Especially if he was being really obvious that I would be the second side chick, flaunting the first one in my face. Which it sounds like he was doing. No, thank you.
“Nope. I could care less about his domestic life, every family life is more or less same.”
Yes, but that behavior would spill over in how he interacts with you.
“He does not have strong backbones like my own”
Exactly. It would have driven you crazy.
” there were more than 10 between LO4/SO and LO5, excluding those nameless app men/dates.”
10 what? Attractions? Potential glimmers? I’m not attracted to that many people. I’ve had maybe an handful or so of LOs since high school. Which is probably why I’ve always overvalued attraction because I don’t feel it that often. I don’t know how many crushes I’ve had. I’d have to think about it. They didn’t make as big an impact, so I’m sure I wouldn’t even remember some of them.
” (ET and Mom don’t know what I know about their LOs, respectively.)”
Who is ET? I don’t understand some of the abbreviations you use.
Your mom had LOs? My family is much too boring and middle class for that kind of intrigue. 🙂
“I have more patients to listen, even the topic was irrelevant or unrelated to me, I sincerely ask them questions.”
I don’t mind a little bit of small talk, but if I’m at a social gathering, for example, after about 2 hours or so of it, I’m done. I feel drained.
Snow,
Hope you don’t mind my cut in, but you said something that interested me a lot in your chat with Marcia:
“Including the last LE, no LO had given me even a vague “No” even if they were not available”
Just wondering – what does this ‘no’ look like (say for the sake of my example that you are giving it) and more importantly how has the opportunuty to say no tended to arise, in your experience? I ask this because many men (or I could just say many people) are indirect (and you have said before that it is even more indirect in COO).
Many of us never even tell our crushes how we feel (Marcia’s favourite rant). If we’re partnered, we will often even actively try to hide our feelings from our LOs, not ask them out on a date etc (just leak our limerence symptoms). Like, I never said to MFF “want to be my side chick?” to allow her to say no! It’s an exaggerated example but you’ll get my gist.
So are these opportunities to communicate ‘no’ more like date proposals or casual coffee invites or sometimes something even more subtle than that? That whole area then gets confusing to me because I’ll sometimes ask female colleagues for a coffee where I have 🆎️ *zero* ‘intent’ towards them – just click with them enough to have the work talk in a more informal setting.
Marcia – by the way, when Snow says ET or the 👽 symbol, she means LO7 (latest one)
LaR,
“Many of us never even tell our crushes how we feel (Marcia’s favourite rant).”
I’m not entirely sure what you are referring to. My rant is the partnered guys who are really flirtatious, touchy feely, complimentary, maybe even disclosing and asking us out (my LO did all these things) … but never following through.
Don’t get on the scale if you ain’t got the weight. That’s my rant.
So … a “no” is … don’t start all that crap. (And, yes, I take my share of the responsibility that I encouraged all of it. Of course, when I think of it, this was only really a problem for me with my LO.)
“That whole area then gets confusing to me because I’ll sometimes ask female colleagues for a coffee where I have 🆎️ *zero* ‘intent’ towards them – just click with them enough to have the work talk in a more informal setting.”
I think this is fine, provided your interactions are more buddy buddy and not flirty, etc.
“(Marcia’s favourite rant).
I’m not entirely sure what you are referring to”
In a nutshell – I was referring to the idea of men doing nothing to act on attractions they feel. Dancing around it instead of asking the girl out. It’s something I have often seen you mention as a frustration.
LaR,
“I was referring to the idea of men doing nothing to act on attractions they feel. Dancing around it instead of asking the girl out.”
You mean single guys? If a single guy wasn’t making a move, I’d assume he wasn’t interested. Or interested enough.
Hi guys, sorry to butt-in but I think this is cultural – people are way more indirect on this side of the pond (Atlantic). Asking someone out on a date is too direct for many men (and women). I am mainly talking about single guys, here. although I imagine its even worse for the guilty partnered guys.
“Many of us never even tell our crushes how we feel (Marcia’s favourite rant).”
It gets even more nuts in small countries – Marcia, this is an article that I think you might find amusing
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/aug/07/icelandic-love-secret-sex-before-coffee
Bewitched,
“Asking someone out on a date is too direct for many men (and women). I am mainly talking about single guys, here. ”
How does anybody get together? They just … hang out?
“although I imagine its even worse for the guilty partnered guys.”
I’m not trying to sound dense. I don’t know what LaR is referring to. I don’t know that partnered guys should disclose to their crushes. Probably best not to get close enough to a crush where you could have that kind of conversation.
“It gets even more nuts in small countries – Marcia, this is an article that I think you might find amusing”
That was funny. Very practical. Not a shred of romance. 🙂
“How does anybody get together? They just … hang out?”
yes – traditionally, hang out in a pub, hook-up later after inhibitions are lowered by alcohol. Decide later whether you like them or not (if you really like them, you can hopefully read the signs before/during/after the hook up – rinse and repeat for a few more times before getting onto a new level of ‘talking to’ ‘dating’ ‘seeing’ them 😆). Only exception is that I think its a bit more direct and honest for older people (over 30 *cough cough* MJ)
“That was funny. Very practical. Not a shred of romance. 🙂”
Indeed, very, (very), practical…..
Bewitched,
“yes – traditionally, hang out in a pub, hook-up later after inhibitions are lowered by alcohol. Decide later whether you like them or not (if you really like them, you can hopefully read the signs before/during/after the hook up – rinse and repeat for a few more times before getting onto a new level of ‘talking to’ ‘dating’ ‘seeing’ them 😆). ”
That’s so odd to me. Having sex so quickly and before much effort to get to know each other. In the U.S., if sex happens like that, after a drunken pick up at a bar, it’s usually a one-nighter. It’s looked at as something very casual. No strings.
And there are still all these double standards about women and sex and being easy if they have sex quickly after meeting the guy and don’t require being in a relationship first.
“Only exception is that I think its a bit more direct and honest for older people (over 30 *cough cough* MJ)”
MJ doesn’t like women over 30. 🙂
🚜,
You don’t know your non-limerent MFF’s true feelings for you, but I suspect that she’s in some degree of “LE” with you, but she can’t or won’t category it as we limerents do.
“Just wondering – what does this ‘no’ look like (say for the sake of my example that you are giving it) and more importantly how has the opportunity to say no tended to arise, in your experience? “
Let’s pretend that I was your MFF and had this vague/undefined feeling for you (like I did for ET for the 1st four years). Your subtle “no” would be:
1. No casual invites for ☕️.
2. When I subtly/casually invite you for ☕️ , find all sorts of family-related exercises to decline.
3. When I flood your email/text boxes, ignore them.
Or apologetically reply, “I acknowledge I’ve got all your messages, but I’m very busy now with pressing projects and will respond you later.” but never do.
4. Avoid common pathways, or super politely nod/chit with sincere smiles; take the leave first.
5. If I phone you, don’t pick it up right away. Making the waiting time longer until you could call back more “indifferently”….
I think even less sensitive women would feel those subtle “Nos”.
“That whole area then gets confusing to me because I’ll sometimes ask female colleagues for a coffee where I have 🆎️ *zero* ‘intent’ towards them – just click with them enough to have the work talk in a more informal setting.”
When you invite colleagues for tea/lunch, you would not have hidden LE emotions to leak out, it’s safe. But if you already have crush/LE for LO, you’ll leak it. With my naked eyes, you can’t hide it.
Did I answer your questions?
“MJ doesn’t like women over 30. 🙂”
That is a lie..
https://youtu.be/AFodLYztFgY?si=9UB0KMDdxTlLXTz6
💦,
A thought from the video you posted —
Psychologically, Stoically speaking, if anyone feels “entitled to” anything (mindsets, emotions, attitudes) in socialization, in romance, or in family matters, one’s is bound to feel miserable.
When offense are given, they don’t have to be taken;
It’s tragic to take offense when none is given or intended.
@Snow,
No offense taken.. Marcia knows I’m a huge Joan Crawford fan. A Woman much much older than me. (Cough, cough, did you catch that?@Marcia)
So it’s only proper I quote from her and ask the question..
“Life is tragedy when one feels, comedy when one thinks,”— Henri de Régnier.
Life is tragedy when offense is taken when none is given; comedy when offense is given but not taken. — 🐦🔥
Life is tragedy when offense is taken but none given, comedy when offense is given but none taken. — 🐦🔥
(Patented 👩🏻⚖️ )
MJ,
“Marcia knows I’m a huge Joan Crawford fan. A Woman much much older than me. (Cough, cough, did you catch that?@Marcia)”
Yes, but the images you are seeing of her in her films are most likely from when she is YOUNGER than you are now.
The only movie in which she’s your age …. see how I did that? 🙂 … is Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?. She’s in her mid 50s. That was her last big hit. I don’t count the work she did after that movie. It wasn’t worthy of her.
“Yes, but the images you are seeing of her in her films are most likely from when she is YOUNGER than you are now.”
I’ll give you that, but not entirely.. 🙂
Since she’s not actually living, she gets almost the same respect as say one of my former once living Grandparents. My Paternal Grandparents were born in 1905. One year before Ms. Joan was born. Therefore she was always be older to me and the clips I view have nothing to do with age appreciation or reverie. Because she might just happen to be, oh I don’t know, 40+ in them??
Just saying, She was old to me when I was 14 and she’s still old to me at 54. I’m not viewing her as some young Woman, Hollywood type sex starlet. (Much as I know you think I do differently) Anything but.. I mean really??.. 🙂
I will say though, those Sabrina Carpenter videos are probably still going to appeal to me when I’m 70+..
By then she’ll actually be over 40..
Ewwwww. 🤯🤭😉
MJ,
“I’m not viewing her as some young Woman, Hollywood type sex starlet. (Much as I know you think I do differently) ”
But she WAS a sex symbol. She was beautiful.
“Sabrina Carpenter videos are probably still going to appeal to me when I’m 70+..”
Do you know the average age of the Chippendales dancers is 25 to 28? Kind of ironic, huh? That’s the age of the women you reference. Of most of the female LOs on here.
“By then she’ll actually be over 40..Ewwwww. 🤯🤭😉”
Yeah, she’ll be crusty. 😉
🍅,
You’ll be pleased to know I’m OK after my 🤺 with 👨🏭 and 👨💼, and 🛖 can open as normal for all you youngster 👭. Who wouldn’t be OK with 👩🦰🏃♂️ 🍺, 💦🪣 and ⛺️ around them for moral support.
Yes, you have answered my questions, and thank you.
It wasn’t really my intention to get into talking about MFF there, though I know I name dropped her. I am still doing ok and don’t feel a big need to offload about my LE at the moment.
But as you said a bit more about he
it … I don’t think I’m that capable of putting the level of boundaries up that you did with ET. You did really well to refuse those ☕️ invites with how you felt, I must say. It can be quite hard to push against the lim-🧲.
The issue I have is that there is a long long precedent (way before the LE stage) of us doing stuff like ☕️ or lunch.
When I was properly ‘grey-rocking’ her to dampen my feelings, it created a noticeable difference from that, an unpleasant “something in the air”. I felt quite unhappy about it as you would have seen from my tone here on LwL at the time. To my Intuition, MFF sometimes looked quite unhappy too, but never said it.
The more in-between state we seem to have achieved now feels more right – not awkward, not limerent, but like we have moved on from that phase and are about where I hoped all along that we could get to.
This is not to say anything premature, not to claim I am totally out of the woods or that I don’t need to be very watchful of myself. I’m just saying I feel I have hit a good phase where the boundaries are OK and the ‘no’ is clear enough.
Hope all is well with you Stateside. We have a long 3 day weekend coming (last one in May always is) that I have turned into 5 days, so that’s to look forward to.
“Do you know the average age of the Chippendales dancers is 25 to 28? Kind of ironic, huh? That’s the age of the women you reference. Of most of the female LOs on here.”
Marcia,
I did not know that fact about Chippendales Dancers. Nor as a heterosexual man am I supposed to know any facts about Chippendales Dancers. I do not care about Chippendales Dancers. Not today, not tomorrow, or even next week. Why on earth would you inform me of this information? If that is your thing, my hat is off to you. However it is not mine.. 🙂
On the brighter side, Yes I do infact reference younger Women. I’m not sure why it’s ironic that female LOs fall into that category. Unless you’re just saying that a lot of older, crusty, haggy, middle aged Women hang out together on the weekends and scream and croon for a bunch of younger stud Bros swinging it on stage. Sorry, not my thing.. 😉
MJ,
“Why on earth would you inform me of this information? ”
Because those guys are making money on their beauty. They’re being paid for it. And marketed to women. So women think the height of male beauty is the same age as the female LOs on here, who are routinely described as the female ideal.
It pays to be young … for both sides.
“Unless you’re just saying that a lot of older, crusty, haggy, middle aged Women hang out together on the weekends and scream and croon for a bunch of younger stud Bros swinging it on stage. ”
If that’s how you feel about older women, I rescind my offer to be hang out as friends. The height of irony is these women are YOUR age. If they’re haggy …. um …. I think you know where I’m going with this.
“So women think the height of male beauty is the same age as the female LOs on here, who are routinely described as the female ideal.”
@Marcia
You seem to be writing that on behalf of ALL Women. Not ALL Women probably think like that though. I might be wrong. You yourself have stated you’re not really attracted to the younger type. At least not as much in the way I am. Again I prefer younger Women but it’s not the end of the world if I end up not dating one of them and then end up with someone in their 40s or 50s. Maybe that person could even be you Dear. (I play pool but I’m really no good at it.. 😆)
“If that’s how you feel about older women, I rescind my offer to be hang out as friends. The height of irony is these women are YOUR age.”
That is not how I feel. To keep it real though, the other day you just posted that ALL men over 40 are crusty. Which means you just undeniably called out a lot of 40+ aged guys in the forum as crusty. Plus all 40+ aged guys on Planet Earth. Do you think that’s fair? You would have ripped me to shreds if I called out EVERY Woman here on Lwl or anywhere thats 40+ as crusty hags, has-beens or expired goods.. I made the comment because thinking about middle aged ladies losing their minds, over young studs swinging their junk in their faces is just crazy funny to me. My ex went to an event like that years ago. To hear her still tell the story is freaking hilarious.
I’m just an average middle aged, divorced white Dude, down on his luck. Trying to find a Lady to maybe get to know, sit down with and perhaps even have a cup of coffee. It’s not as easy for me as you would like to believe otherwise..
My last real legitimate SO happened in late 2018. She was 40 the year we started dating. I was 47. I was crazy about her. I adored her. Probably way more than she wanted me to. Which is probably the reason why she friend-zoned me.. I wasn’t having it. If I had wanted another friend, I’d get another cat. Yet we know how I feel about those vile little creatures..
MJ,
“You seem to be writing that on behalf of ALL Women. Not ALL Women probably think like that though.”
Those guys are PAID for their appearance so I may not be speaking for ALL women (and there’s no way I could, anyway) but I’m at least speaking for some.
“You yourself have stated you’re not really attracted to the younger type.”
Because my ideal has evolved with me as I’ve aged. He’s not frozen in amber.
“Again I prefer younger Women but it’s not the end of the world if I end up not dating one of them and then end up with someone in their 40s or 50s.”
Wow. Thanks. Just what a woman wants to hear. That she’s a second choice if the ones you really want don’t work out.
” Maybe that person could even be you Dear. (I play pool but I’m really no good at it.. 😆)”
I’m good.
” To keep it real though, the other day you just posted that ALL men over 40 are crusty.”
I was joking. Thus, I included the smiley emoji. Trying to prove a point about your preference for younger women and how it feels to hear that if you’re the same age. It’s incredibly dismissive.
” I made the comment because thinking about middle aged ladies losing their minds, over young studs swinging their junk in their faces is just crazy funny to me.”
Why? Why is it any different than a bunch of middle-aged dudes going to a strip club and acting like nutballs over young female dancers?
“I’m just an average middle aged, divorced white Dude”
That’s my point. I consider myself pretty average. What do I have to offer a young man at the top of his game?
“Trying to find a Lady to maybe get to know, sit down with and perhaps even have a cup of coffee.”
I asked you this before and you didn’t answer. Who have you asked out besides LF? That’s ONE person who it sounds like was never going to be available.
” It’s not as easy for me as you would like to believe otherwise.”
I never said it was easy. It’s not easy at all. But I don’t see you trying. Now, I’m not making a hug effort myself, so that’s not really a criticism. I do go to meetups. And if I happen to meet people there, that would be fine. And some of the meetups are women’s groups. Although we go out places where there are, obviously, other people.
” If I had wanted another friend, I’d get another cat. Yet we know how I feel about those vile little creatures..”
You don’t like cats?
🚜 🌽,
“Yes, you have answered my questions, and thank you.”
You’re welcome. I did not answer it with only your MFF in mind, but for your future LO as well.
“I am still doing ok and don’t feel a big need to offload about my LE at the moment.”
You sound like you’ve recovered a lot from your fatigue not long ago, right? Imp, it helps a great deal not to constantly talk about one’s xLO/LO, which reinforcing their presence in limerent’s head. I understand that some of us simply could not help it at present….
“ You did really well to refuse those ☕️ invites with how you felt, I must say. It can be quite hard to push against the lim-🧲.”
All these happened within first 2 years of LE… but I don’t want to drag my xLE here anymore, what’s the point? (Except making some perked ears confused and spun it around in all sorts of twisted ways or simply upside down… 🙃 🙄)
“The issue I have is that there is a long long precedent (way before the LE stage) of us doing stuff like ☕️ or lunch.”
I know your case is quite different; you two were friends before. But perhaps these ok activities needed (as you’ve being doing) to cut down in order you to get out of LE completely?
“When I was properly ‘grey-rocking’ her to dampen my feelings, it created a noticeable difference from that, an unpleasant “something in the air”. “
Understandable! But as DrL points, one might have to sacrifice some old friendship first in order to free one’s LE mind. And down the road, one can pick up renewed/renovated friendship again. Of course, as we talked about, that might lead it to its “death”, which one needs to prepare as well. Every coin has two sides, isn’t it life?
“I felt quite unhappy about it as you would have seen from my tone here on LwL at the time. To my Intuition, MFF sometimes looked quite unhappy too, but never said it.”
If she’s level 3-5 degree in LE with you, there might be a heart crack inside her. You just do not know and can’t ask. But remember what 🐝 🧙♀️ said about helping others with one’s egotistic habit. Your MFF would work out her challenges in dealing with your needed distancing. You can’t “save” anyone else if you can’t totally “save”/liberate yourself first from LE.
“The more in-between state we seem to have achieved now feels more right – not awkward, not limerent, but like we have moved on from that phase and are about where I hoped all along that we could get to.”
Keep steadily walking towards that direction, while holding minimum hopes with maximum efforts — a Stoic approach.
“This is not to say anything premature, not to claim I am totally out of the woods or that I don’t need to be very watchful of myself. I’m just saying I feel I have hit a good phase where the boundaries are OK and the ‘no’ is clear enough.”
“boundaries are OK and the “no” is clear enough.” Is a very reasonable goal! If I were you, I would not claim I am out of the woods, she’s still in your physical vicinity almost everyday. Any embers could be rekindled, even after one has gone a total NC.
“Hope all is well with you Stateside. We have a long 3 day weekend coming (last one in May always is) that I have turned into 5 days, so that’s to look forward to.”
I hope you use this long weekend to continue winding down your stresses and tiredness from work or whatever. Take some hot baths and perhaps get away with you SO to somewhere exotic…
I’m a “rich” 🦜 right now with tons of free time and free mental space…
🐦🔥🏞,
“I’m a “rich” 🦜 right now with tons of free time and free mental space…”
Any plans for how you are going to use all the extra time and space? Or will you just take each day as it comes with ‘agape’?
“You sound like you’ve recovered a lot from your fatigue not long ago, right?”
Yes – there is a second level residual fatigue in the background (a bit like you said about having to make up the sleep of 8 years) that is not gone. But the first level fatigue (the level that was really interfering with my functioning) has lifted – I’ve had more energy, had more enthusiasm to reach out to friends, and got stuck into some projects at home which have been renewing.
I think that dream with the staircase of nails, MFF and her mum etc was a turning point – it helped me reframe some things and make more than one big move on in my mind. You always said the subconscious and the dreams were crucial. I am very grateful for the analysis of it we did afterwards. I might write more at a future point about why I think it was a turning point.
Have a great day when it comes to 🇺🇸
🎩 🌽,
Just woke up and still in bed. It’s been very chilly in the past few days, people are wearing winter jacket and I turned heating pad on.
“Any plans for how you are going to use all the extra time and space? Or will you just take each day as it comes with ‘agape’?”
What your ‘agape’ means here? 💛? I am going to read books crying in my kindle for being ignored, which may take 3 years of full-time. I read slow and often pause to think, story plots are not as important as what sentiments the language could provoke (only in English, not COO).
I need to exercise more routinely. My sleeping accompanied by fatigue has not been over yet, which has somewhat triggered body to physical recess/depression, which then lowed my spirit, inevitably.
“I think that dream with the staircase of nails, MFF and her mum etc was a turning point – it helped me reframe some things and make more than one big move on in my mind. “
I still remember your dream very well, that’s so telling! 😊
“You always said the subconscious and the dreams were crucial. “
Jung said it. I just learned and observed and found he is right. Last night, I had a heart-pounding nightmare: some Gypsies used beautiful wooden circus wagons to carry alive tigers in the lower east side of the city and asked people/me to pet them to earn money. I did not want to pet one, so they let 🐅 out of the wagon, I had to run. The first 🐅 was slow, so I got away; then another tiger 🐅 appeared (not sure if it was the same) a bit far away from the first one, I ran again. Both 🐅 🐅 were not actively running after me, but kept some distance on the sidewalk; the sight of them free made me run so hard… the second separate dream, I was in COO met an elementary school classmate asking what I was doing…. no 🐯 image appeared in it.
If you remember, I had other 🐅 dreams as well… so my Unconscious is on some fear…
“I am very grateful for the analysis of it we did afterwards. I might write more at a future point about why I think it was a turning point.”
Really? 😳 I’m glad! That’s Jung’s brilliance — Subconscious mind is more powerful than logic 🧠 and one needs to listen to and understand it. The latter feeds the former, and the former almost direct the latter, at least revealing some truth one already vaguely knows.
A couple of days ago, I had a possible turning point dream about ykw… sad… 🫴🧏 💠📧
Non-flake 🦜,
Returning to a discussion of ours last week …
“What your ‘agape’ means here? 💛?”
I meant kind of how you have described that before, just heading out not knowing how the day would pan out, spreading good karma as you go, seeing how the day turns out (you know, the facial expressions you described that make dogs and children happy …)
“I am going to read books crying in my kindle for being ignored”
I love the sound of that. I’m building up my reading again (LE and other life pressures massively affected it) but am starting fairly easy. I have read 1984 by the way, as well as Brave New World (I think the two kind of sit together to show two different dystopias that operate in different bits of the world, perhaps even come together) if you want to talk about either.
“I need to exercise more routinely”.
Me too. Work and my domestic projects have really impacted the time I have for it lately. I always do a little each day but would like to build up to more.
“I still remember your dream very well, that’s so telling! 😊”
The role of the mother figure and to an extent the dog are especially telling. I saw the dream at first as symbolic of being seen and ‘called out’ and needing to run. Now I see it as being quietly seen and that still being all OK – that the respect I have shown for the situation is seen and reciprocated, and it is allowed to quietly just ‘be’. That’s a big shift, as I have carried that mindset back into the conscious mind when I’m having interactions with her, and it has settled me. The words “I have just come over here to say I’m going; you were already over here” are the really crucial and ‘sticking’ ones that help me understand it. Also that I missed most of the massive bed of nails and got just a small scrape is interesting.
My dreams have thrown me a loop in the last week, again acting as a brake to thinking too much in one direction in the conscious. I have had a whole series of vivid and ‘chaos’ dreams. I remember little about most of them. The heaviest one, I do remember. In it, I had two *literally* parallel lives with SO and MFF. Let me try to explain more. I could move myself between the ‘lives’ – like by finishing work and going home, I switch from work life to home life (in the dream, from MFF version of life, say Variant A, to SO version – variant B). But facts in ‘one life’ were no longer true in the other. This sounds obvious, but this dream is making the double life I was leading while in EA more vivid and literal to me. To give an example, I would park my car somewhere in Variant A life but then somewhere else in my variant B life. My car could literally be in two places at once! But if parking space A was in the MFF life, I would go home and tell SO my car was in space A. SO would know it would be in space B (the last place I parked it when I was with her). But I’d swear blind in was in Space A. It happened both ways round in the dream. Then I think my parents/brother got involved and there was a ‘Variant C’ and more. This dream was total chaos and stress – one of those where you wake up and need a while to know it has gone away and won’t be ruining your real day.
In another dream MFF and I were ‘consummating’ (only the second time I remember dreaming that fully) until we realised we shouldn’t be and stopped midway and went to separate rooms.
That probably stands as a reminder ‘you’re not as out of the woods as your conscious tries to say you are’. There is nearly always a brake or barrier in that kind of dream, as other LwLers have also reported about their LO dreams.
“Both 🐅 🐅 were not actively running after me, but kept some distance on the sidewalk; the sight of them free made me run so hard…”
You’re running, but they’re not really chasing… can you figure out the significance or symbolism of that? Do they represent a big fear of yours that maybe you don’t need to fear as much as you think you do – kind of like a wolf in sheep’s clothing?
“If you remember, I had other 🐅 dreams as well… so my Unconscious is on some fear…
“
I seem to remember that before, you figured out what the 🐅🐅🐅 symbolised? And that again they weren’t trying to hurt you in that first dream? Do you think they symbolise the same this time?
“A couple of days ago, I had a possible turning point dream about ykw … sad”
Where that’s concerned, I strongly think stay 🧎♀️ and hold your course, unless you feel a compelling reason not to (perhaps given by the dream) in either direction. For what it’s worth, I think you are doing exactly the right thing at the moment.
🎩 🚜,
It looks like I’m going to spend the rest of my life talking to 👻 👻 👻 in the morning, or at least during my vacation, which I like since the mind is usually fresher and clearer, especially when there is no nightmares before waking up.
“I meant kind of how you have described that before, just heading out not knowing how the day would pan out, spreading good karma as you go, seeing how the day turns out (you know, the facial expressions you described that make dogs and children happy …)”
Oh, yes! I’m more Agape nowadays, when more pleasant weather is here. All kinds of dogs just could not take their eyes off me. Being able to sort out more of my last LE with 😎 🍫 and you also helps lifting up the spirit and lightening the heart, since I got some answers regarding my baffling LE history.
My ever curious, observing mind (not LE brain) likes to understand unfathomable “behaviors/events”, whatever they represent in whatever positive or negative, or mixed ways. That’s an artist’s 👁️, to observe and describe but not to judge whatever is depicted or perceived. That’s Proust’s brilliance! My wildest dream has been (since exposed to his work) to become a smaller vision of Proust in active living, if unable in writing in your mother tongue (I don’t write in COO tongue, because unable to FEEL in it).
“I have read 1984 by the way, as well as Brave New World (I think the two kind of sit together to show two different dystopias that operate in different bits of the world, perhaps even come together) if you want to talk about either.”
Definitely. I love those two works, and have more understanding of Winston in 1984. I think due to my earlier classical lit reading, my mind tends to resonate with male protagonists in many books, not much female characters. I also had so few feminine models in my upbringing, so Melanie in GWW is a total “stranger” to me, but not Brontë sisters or George Sand, or Virginia Woolf (they speak for me). I also want to talk with you about Pierre in “War and Peace”and Prince Myshkin in “Idiot”, can’t help love them.
“I still remember your dream very well, that’s so telling! “Now I see it as being quietly seen and that still being all OK – that the respect I have shown for the situation is seen and reciprocated, and it is allowed to quietly just ‘be’. “
It’s even better interpreted/perceived now, installing more peace in your head, right⁉️
“That’s a big shift, as I have carried that mindset back into the conscious mind when I’m having interactions with her, and it has settled me. “
My point again (to Marcia last night) — the Unconscious lead it conscious brain. There is no 🆎 right or wrong interpretations of any dreams, it’s up to dreamers, not their therapists ; Jung emphasizes this. If dreamers could benefit from their won interpretations, then self or assisted therapeutic effects are achieved! (Sometimes I repeatedly “preach” my points here, only for possibly-interested LwL new comers who are unaware of our previous discussions)
“The words “I have just come over here to say I’m going; you were already over here” are the really crucial and ‘sticking’ ones that help me understand it. “
Your Unconscious knew more than your logical mind.
“My dreams have thrown me a loop in the last week, again acting as a brake to thinking too much in one direction in the conscious. “
That proves Jung’s point: our conscious thinking feeds the Unconscious, and the Unconscious balances the conscious. Perhaps we need to be more aware what we CHOOSE to think or say, in our waking hours?
“The heaviest one, I do remember. In it, I had two *literally* parallel lives with SO and MFF.”
A resemblance of your reality, even just in your mental reality.
“Let me try to explain more. I could move myself between the ‘lives’ – like by finishing work and going home, I switch from work life to home life (in the dream, from MFF version of life, say Variant A, to SO version – variant B). “
Perhaps mental Compartmentalization shown in the dream?
“But facts in ‘one life’ were no longer true in the other. This sounds obvious, but this dream is making the double life I was leading while in EA more vivid and literal to me. “
Or Dear, can you break your long paragraph? it makes my thinking tiring and cloudy.
“To give an example, I would park my car somewhere in Variant A life but then somewhere else in my variant B life. My car could literally be in two places at once! But if parking space A was in the MFF life, I would go home and tell SO my car was in space A. SO would know it would be in space B (the last place I parked it when I was with her). But I’d swear blind in was in Space A. It happened both ways round in the dream. “
Based on DrL’ points on compartmentalization of LE, I think this dream /the Unconscious is telling/showing you (your logical mind) the confusing mixups in your reality, in your mind (despite you think you’re clear headed), as long as you’re still in LE, even in its last tail.
“Then I think my parents/brother got involved and there was a ‘Variant C’ and more. “
Of course, your family issues would not be spared in the Unconscious, particularly when you can’t talk openly about it here. The Unconscious’ infinite space would hold on all our past memories (forgotten or remembered) and all our present stresses (aware or unrecognized or denied).
“This dream was total chaos and stress – one of those where you wake up and need a while to know it has gone away and won’t be ruining your real day.”
Sorry to be direct: you know you can’t really run away from what those dreams represent, right? They WILL come again in some unexpected forms, until those matters are sorted out in some fashions. Please be prepared.
“In another dream MFF and I were ‘consummating’ (only the second time I remember dreaming that fully) until we realised we shouldn’t be and stopped midway and went to separate rooms.”
You see, as I pointed out before (not mean to morally judge you here), such a fantasy with MFF is not as REMOTE as you alluded it with the dream experience with that gay man. Even if you “never” actively, consciously think about it, it exists in your Unconscious. When you tried to strongly argue about/dismiss your repressed thoughts, they will show up in your dreams, no doubt about it. It’s all natural, not a crime! (Enjoy Marcia’s “forbidden candy” in the dream when you could 😃)
“That probably stands as a reminder ‘you’re not as out of the woods as your conscious tries to say you are’. There is nearly always a brake or barrier in that kind of dream, as other LwLers have also reported about their LO dreams.”
The Unconscious shows/reflects our reality and can’t conjure up something that never existed either in reality or in our buried memories. All raw data in the Unconscious come from accumulated experiences (internal or external) sine our birth. A lot of childhood ones are forgotten by our local mind, but they are still dormant in the Unconscious, and can be triggered to awake by some future similar incidents.
(I still can’t recover my lost memories from those horrifically scary traumas in my childhood, but I could/can acutely SENSE (body/sensory records) “dangers” from ONE quick glance on any male-stranger’s face. )
After posting my dream last time, I remembered more details about in it: two 🐅 🐅 were the same one, first was let free near the weapon and then appeared again “telepathically” after I had run so hard for several blocks. The both encountering sites are still far away from my realistic home.
“You’re running, but they’re not really chasing… can you figure out the significance or symbolism of that? Do they represent a big fear of yours that maybe you don’t need to fear as much as you think you do – kind of like a wolf in sheep’s clothing?”
You’re a qualified dream analysist now❗️Yes, tigers in my dreams always represent some kinds of fears. If they are actively running after me, that possibly means danger/fear I sensed might be imminent or accurate to plausibly take place. If they linger quietly around me, that means such fear is coinhabit with me, but posing no threat in my reality.
The focus needs to be on my reactions towards those tigers. If I only observe or even walk through them, that means I’m not afraid and can live peaceful with fears like with the 🐅 🐅 🐅 in my dream of last year. If I am actively running away, that means I perceive them as substantial dangers and am actually afraid of them.
“they weren’t trying to hurt you in that first dream? Do you think they symbolise the same this time?”
Yes, in both dreams, they were not trying to hurt me. But the first 3 tigers were easily connected with the sources of 3 specific fears from the past, this recent one did not give me definitive indication, although I have my logical suspicion. The “Gypsies” owners of the 🐅 looked like Middle-Easterners in the dream, I am not sure even if they were gypsies. The lower east-side is diagonally far away from my residence.
“Where that’s concerned, I strongly think stay and hold your course, unless you feel a compelling reason not to (perhaps given by the dream) in either direction.”
This dream shockingly resembles one of my realistic experiences, only with different personnel, but still the same feelings/sadness afterwards, almost chocking me for days… I can’t talk about it here in public, too complicatedly entwined with my reality… It does not bother me that much now, despite I can’t forget the dream images and narrative.
“For what it’s worth, I think you are doing exactly the right thing at the moment.”
Thank you for morale support. According to Wittgenstein, language can be so confusing and if communication /understanding is solely based on words, we might be going nuts, literally. I don’t want to lose my mind or waste my energy and time to decipher what’s going on inside another mysterious or eclectic mind (Stoic: it’s beyond our control, no need to react in any fashion in either direction)! Haven’t you just received your personal dose of Wittgenstein’s theory this morning?
My smart, spiritual psychologist (never my own shrink) LO4.5 also said once, “words (positive or negative) evaporate in the air soon or later, but feelings/thoughts (given by solid actions/experiences) last…. Try to remember only LOVE if you ever felt in the experience… ” (not exact wording). I did not believe him at the time but it is proven true — words of all sorts evaporated later or lost all their potency in time and space. For me personally, I tend to forget negative memories but remember positive ones. (Even my kid brain had the ability to instantly “wipe out/shut down” possibly horrific memories on the set; otherwise imagine my later life carrying those painful/fearful weight…❗️)
Thus, I contently “sit” or actively distill my reactive mind while peacefully/joyfully going around, here or elsewhere, with my Agape. Nowadays (after the last ember was suddenly extinguished), I’m getting along, so much more in serenity and smiles, with unknowns in my reality….
Typo: “the two 🐅 🐅 were the same one, first was let free near the wagon…”
The 🐅 did not look vicious when I peeked at them in both sidewalks across a street. I didn’t run on the 2nd setting, but somehow was teleported to COO for the 2nd half of the dream, in which I told my long-time-no-seen elementary school classmate and a Tibetan friend that I might be looking for work over there….
When I woke up, I actually felt tired physically with all that running in the dream….
🚜,
“I strongly think stay 🧎♀️ and hold your course….”
A true Stoic does not 🧎🏻♀️➡️ leaving one’s psychology to the whimsical Fate, but prepare, expect, and assume the worst WILL happen (again) or has already happened, and “ruminates” what one would think/do (non-reactive) when it arrives or when it’s already here…
If the worst never happens as expected, one is extra-blessed!
I’be been preparing for a MRI report that will arrive at any minute…. The worst, just another surgery 😊
🦜
🤞for the result.
I only meant stay 🧎♀️ re ykw matters (I will join you). But Stoic equally applies.
Funny – I started a reply to you earlier discussing the Stoic mindset among many other matters. Nearly finished it but I got too tired, ran out of gas and had 🛀 instead. Will complete it and send it tomorrow.
🚜,
“only meant stay 🧎♀️ re ykw matters (I will join you). But Stoic equally applies.“
My reply was especially for the matter in our hand— the best practice opportunity…. but Stoic mindset really applies across all life sections.
Always take a bath first when you have time, it’s vitally important for our neurons…
Have a good 😴 !
🦜
“It looks like I’m going to spend the rest of my life talking to 👻 👻 👻 in the mornings … which I like since the mind is usually fresher and clearer”
I’m glad, but as said before, never feel the need to rush 📨 or lose 💤 to send them! I am 🏃♂️ this one out a bit as your reply got my neurons firing and I don’t want to forget some of my reply content.
“That’s Proust’s brilliance!”
Perhaps another item for my 📚 list as the 🧠 area that enjoys fiction continues its waking up.
“I love those two works, and have more understanding of Winston in 1984.”
The thing with Winston is he thought he was doing everything right to be careful, but still ‘live a bit’ – and yet still it wasn’t enough. The scenes where he is tortured are some of the most harrowing prose I have ever read.
I first read it in my 20s (the reading lists at school here are so minimal – didn’t get much beyond To Kill a Mockingbird, Wuthering Heights, Gatsby and some limited Shakespeare).
Concepts from the book like newspeak, rewriting history, doublethink or even Big Brother only came to make sense to me as I moved further through life. The concepts do make sense now yet without me having the real lived experience of it that you and older generations of your family do. I can see it enough to get the gist of what he meant.
I don’t know how much time Orwell spent in Communist countries. I feel he was a genius to foreshadow what he did in that book and Animal Farm. What political system doesn’t become its own variant of Animal Farm eventually, with overly power-hungry people at the top??
(splits paragraph 😂)
I heard an interesting critique of Orwell once: “he doesn’t really like the little guy, he just hates the big guy”. That was based on another of his books, ‘The Road to Wigan Pier’. I haven’t read that yet but I think he tries to understand the lives of ‘the little guy’ in it.
“It’s even better interpreted/perceived now, installing more peace in your head, right⁉️”
Yes. I didn’t connect this next bit with the dream straight away (at first I thought the outpouring of support I got on LwL was more responsible for my changed mindset) … but the next time I saw her after both those things, a switch flipped and I suddently knew (F brain not T) how to act again to stop creating discomfort yet not fan the embers. I have maintained that consistently since and it has felt natural.
“Your Unconscious knew more than your logical mind.”
I think my logical mind engages in a lot of denial and doublethink sometimes.
“Or Dear, can you break your long paragraph? it makes my thinking tiring and cloudy.”
I was always taught to keep a paragraph going until I change topic. But you know what, I looked at that paragraph length and thought “I must break it” and then forgot to before I hit send. When my paragraph gets too long it means my own thinking about its topic is cloudy.
I quite often do the argument – counterargument – summary (thesis – antithesis – synthesis) structure in how I write. It is how I think too. But it can create extraordinarily long paragraphs. Every day is a school day 👩🏫 – will try harder!
“Based on DrL’ points on compartmentalization of LE, I think this dream /the Unconscious is telling/showing you (your logical mind) the confusing mixups in your reality, in your mind (despite you think you’re clear headed), as long as you’re still in LE, even in its last tail.”
Yes, I agree. The embers are far far calmer than the hurricane in my brain of a year or even six months ago, but they haven’t totally burned out. I remain watchful of them.
“Sorry to be direct: you know you can’t really run away from what those dreams represent, right? They WILL come again in some unexpected forms, until those matters are sorted out in some fashions. Please be prepared.”
I will. I have a mix of: controllables (eg my responses to things – now enriched by all the knowledge from LwL, and background conditions I can affect); semi-controllables (require sustained effort or some co-operation of others – may or may not happen) and uncontrollables (accept they won’t happen and in Stoic terms prepare for the worst).
We have something in Christianity called the ‘Serenity Prayer’ (you have probably heard of it). It reads:
“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference”
I am not deeply into Christianity (older generations very much were – there were/are even pastors in my grandparent and parent generation), but I try to live according to many of its principles and I find good nuggets in it. The serenity one, usually said in 12-step programme meetings etc for addiction, I find good to apply to my situation. I think it matches a bit (not fully) with your “prepare for the worst but strive for the best” type idea. The worst is located in the uncontrollables, the best is in the controllables.
“You see, as I pointed out before (not mean to morally judge you here), such a fantasy with MFF is not as REMOTE as you alluded it with the dream experience with that gay man.”
I am not going to lie and say I never had that fantasy about her. I think my T mind tries to deny it at times, but F knows the truth.
But I think I wasn’t that clear with you before when we discussed that dream. I was working from a source I am guilty of not checking out properly, that said the unconscious kind of ‘substitutes’ something outrageous into dreams when it doesn’t want to face what’s real. It is another take on dream interpretation but I never meant to imply Jung said it … and I don’t know the original source, only than that the person who told me second hand was a psychologist – we’re not in contact now to be able to check. The theory is not compatible with what you tell me Jung says, and I now accept that – no need to explain that bit again.
I do get loads of ‘outrageous substitutions’ in dreams so I felt that idea was worth a look, but I probably just lazily applied it because it seemed to conveniently fit my experience – bad scientist! 👨🔬❌️ another schoolday!
“first was let free near the weapon and then appeared again “telepathically” after I had run so hard for several blocks. The both encountering sites are still far away from my realistic home.”
Hmm … the weapon, the teleporting and the locations might also somehow be significant … I guess most all elements of dreams are somehow significant?!
“If I only observe or even walk through them, that means I’m not afraid and can live peaceful with fears” like with the 🐅 🐅 🐅 in my dream of last year. If I am actively running away, that means I perceive them as substantial dangers and am actually afraid of them.”
I get you on why focusing on your reaction is the key to understanding it.
“The “Gypsies” owners of the 🐅 looked like Middle-Easterners in the dream, I am not sure even if they were gypsies. The lower east-side is diagonally far away from my residence.”
I don’t know what to make of that bit – is this location in relation to your residence now or former one? I guess it is also somehow important.
“According to Wittgenstein, language can be so confusing and if communication /understanding is solely based on words, we might be going nuts, literally”
I think Wittgenstein meant *anyone’s* words have the potential to cause confusion. Some people, I think, are very much more deliberate about it though, using words knowingly to bamboozle! And also some people are harder to bamboozle than others! 👇
“I don’t want to lose my mind or waste my energy and time to decipher what’s going on inside another mysterious or eclectic mind (Stoic: it’s beyond our control, no need to react in any fashion in either direction)!”
Exactly. Only so many hours in the day. Invest effort based on an assessment of the return on effort. Don’t waste it. 🌽 = 🍅 there.
“Nowadays (after the last ember was suddenly extinguished), I’m getting along, so much more in serenity and smiles, with unknowns in my reality….”
This is great to hear 🙂
Random question – can you remember which blog your explanation about IFS was posted in? My ‘filing’ of LwL stuff is pretty poor and I wanted to have a look back at it now. Don’t spend loads of time looking if you don’t know – just wondered if you remembered.
Have a nice day!
🎩 🚜,
I’m going to break your long post into parts to respond, since some of them would take more time and thought to replay.
“I think Wittgenstein meant *anyone’s* words have the potential to cause confusion. “
Because everyone has slight definitions of words/terms, due to personal and cultural background. Without agreed definition, no talks can be carried out without confusions/misunderstanding, just like our discussion on “friendship” and “forgiveness”.
“Some people, I think, are very much more deliberate about it though, using words knowingly to bamboozle! And also some people are harder to bamboozle than others! “
That’s what I meant to say but couldn’t, can’t you see that? Knowing my lot, you’ll have to deduce what I wanted to say but sometime unable.
But motives behind bamboozlement is worth of a bit thoughts, isn’t it? Knowing you’re an hard egg to bamboozle, one still skillfully does it nonetheless, why❓
“Only so many hours in the day. Invest effort based on an assessment of the return on effort. Don’t waste it. “
Actually, efforts ARE made on both sides, when a verbal dueling is perceived by your opponent. One side is direct and sincere, the other avoidant (of the topics) and combative (ego showing off). You won’t be “allowed” to speak the last word… particularly when you are a worthy rival.
[“Nowadays (after the last ember was suddenly extinguished), I’m getting along, so much more in serenity and smiles, with unknowns in my reality….”
This is great to hear ]
It is not just that lingering ember is finally gone, but that life-time, mysterious and inexpressible LONGING (since age of 4 or 5) is gone. Without LONGING (for anything), then without fear. Having healthy needs and normal human desires is fine, but LONGING is a subtle or acute agony and can become a detrimental mental habit.
“Random question – can you remember which blog your explanation about IFS was posted in? My ‘filing’ of LwL stuff is pretty poor and I wanted to have a look back at it now. “
I vaguely remember they are on last December or January blogs, not sure which one. If I found it, I’ll let you know.
Have a good afternoon and evening!
🚜 🌽 ,
I have to be fair to add one point here —
Some combative mind is not ego-based but a (self) defense mechanism. Combative/egotistical mask hides deep or unspeakable vulnerabilities/wounds that are possibly derived from under-appreciation (for specific talent/brilliance), unfair-treatment (not given fair/equal opportunities), discrimination (due to a nature’s fault), and so forth…. One can hear indirect revelations, subtle complaints or loud lamentations in between lines….
Those vulnerable minds may, brilliant or confused or both, sometimes or habitually, have difficulty to clearly see and truly feel differences between one’s mind and ONESELF as whole. Arguments challenged even with a loving heart can be confusedly/bizarrely perceived as personal attacks with aggression, and some offenses are taken when clearly there is none…. which then automatically arose their hostility and aggression.
In deep truth, such a mind does not want and even hates perceived “debates” or “duelings”, but it could not help its habitual envisions (might be neurally-wired that way, like neurodivergence, OCD). I believe it wants fair, harmonious dialogues and discussions and others’ unconditional appreciation (praise or even worship) of their talents… it also desires deep love, too! But somehow the mind is driven to the opposite direction by its extremely high sensitivity and unstoppable over-thinking…. It’s 😔
Just some random thoughts that bring me 🪷 and quiet 😊.
🎩 🚜,
“That’s Proust’s brilliance!” Perhaps another item for my list as the 📚 area that enjoys fiction continues its waking up.”
Well, if you can’t appreciate Proust’s sentimentality, mentality, artistic and esthetical “making something out of nothing” — giving rich meanings to any ordinary objects and matters, I WILL “abandon” your 🎩 🌽 friendship 🤭 !
Right now, I’m actually living in his lifestyle — never got out of my bed before 12-3 pm, only with water and a cup of double expresso. Then, it’s reading, thinking, and rambling….until my body screams to get off the bed for movement. 😃
“The thing with Winston is he thought he was doing everything right to be careful, but still ‘live a bit’ – and yet still it wasn’t enough. “
Trust me on this: in the communist system, one could never be “careful” enough — your neighbors, your friends, your spouse, family member could all report your careless words/thoughts, should the government intends to collect them. Big Brother has trained millions of ignorant mind to be volunteering thought and action “police”. The fear of being caught alone makes one anxious and alert all the time.
“The scenes where he is tortured are some of the most harrowing prose I have ever read.”
Thus, the symbol Room 101. There were worse true stories in COO, my grandparents and parents’ generations. One of my Grandpa’s cousin jumped into a well, after his private rice stores were confiscated in 1950s. Granny’s many personal possessions were also confiscated by the Red Guards and their 5 chamber house were assigned to other four familys to share, like in “Doctor Zhivago”…. I have other data for my pending book…
What do you think of Winston and Julia’s romance? What senses, thoughts, and reasons do you get from their secrete dating, loving, and ultimate betrayal in the end?
Concepts from the book like newspeak, rewriting history, doublethink or even Big Brother only came to make sense to me as I moved further through life. “
That 🆎 happened in Soviet Union and COO, and is still very active in the latter, only with internet now.
“The concepts do make sense now yet without me having the real lived experience of it that you and older generations of your family do. I can see it enough to get the gist of what he meant.”
Yes, many Westerners intellectually know about the COO and Soviet history enough, but you (collective) can’t FEEL those horrific experiences, except imagine them, which does not affect your sensory system.
“I don’t know how much time Orwell spent in Communist countries. I feel he was a genius to foreshadow what he did in that book and Animal Farm. “
He was considered the genius to foresee for writing “1984”. The movie played by John Hurt is really good. Dad has his aura, of course, without Western physical features.
“What political system doesn’t become its own variant of Animal Farm eventually, with overly power-hungry people at the top??”
Precisely! And how many current countries’ leaders are not power-hungry?
“I heard an interesting critique of Orwell once: “he doesn’t really like the little guy, he just hates the big guy”.
I heard that your last Queen could not stand Dickens’ “little” characters. Growing in an intellectual environment, I understand their ambivalent sentimentality: in one way, they look down upon little people (70% COO population, mainly peasants, in 1949 were totally illiterate – couldn’t read any printed word), but on the other hand, these intellectuals are also so little in front of Big Brother — the system!
“That was based on another of his books, ‘The Road to Wigan Pier’. I haven’t read that yet but I think he tries to understand the lives of ‘the little guy’ in it.”
I haven’t read that book either. Based on my limited knowledge, “the little guy” mentality is quite trivial, often slaved, and ready to be a tool of Big Brother. As a kid, I gazed some of utterly ignorant eyes — empty inside. Some had a good heart, but some were unreasonably hostile, perhaps due to their perpetual adversities and struggles in daily life … I was always fascinated in eyes of all kinds of people and animals.
🥴 Still can’t see any 👀 here! *🤬*
***************
“… but the next time I saw her after both those things, a switch flipped and I suddently knew (F brain not T) how to act again to stop creating discomfort yet not fan the embers.”
I’m sooooo glad to hear that F is leading your T now, it’s the Unconscious’ work! As Jung says, once one is ready to communicate with and confront his inside through dreams, the Unconscious will begin to AID the conscious mind.
“I have maintained that consistently since and it has felt natural.”
I think it’s a huge progress, not just in your LE, but for other mental, emotional and psychological matters. Please keep it up and be more non-judgmental observant of your own mind — how the conscious and subconscious affect each other, in supportive or “combative” ways. To me, Jungian dream work is fascinating and yet laborious (I don’t have time or patience to do them properly). I so appreciate my remembered dreams; each reveals or confirms something new or previously vague. They are precious to my mental health….
“I think my logical mind engages in a lot of denial and doublethink sometimes.”
Many people do, especially limerents. The harder it denies, the more the Unconscious will “battle” with or balance your logical mind through dream images and narratives. My countless dreams have convinced me on this.
“I was always taught to keep a paragraph going until I change topic. “
I used to be in writing essay mode (still somewhat). But essays also need a break after each argument or data supply.
“But you know what, I looked at that paragraph length and thought “I must break it” and then forgot to before I hit send. “
That’s a stream of subconsciousness flowing on paper, like Virginia or Proust (4 meters long for one sentence! 😱). But for reasoning and arguments, one has to break a train of thoughts into concise paragraphs.
“When my paragraph gets too long it means my own thinking about its topic is cloudy.”
You know yourself well 😀
“I quite often do the argument – counterargument – summary (thesis – antithesis – synthesis) structure in how I write. It is how I think too. But it can create extraordinarily long paragraphs. “
Then even more so, you need shorten paragraphs to argue, counter-argue, and summarized effectively. I skip some posters here simply because their paragraphs are too long, giving me “headache”…. So much worse than clearly paragraphed, lengthy “War and Peace”… 😊
“Every day is a school day”
The same to me, literally EVERY SINGLE DAY! 🤝
“The embers are far, far calmer than the hurricane in my brain of a year or even six months ago, but they haven’t totally burned out. I remain watchful of them.”
Good. They probably will remain there for a long while, especially your LO is still within your professional vicinity.
“I have a mix of: controllables (eg my responses to things – now enriched by all the knowledge from LwL, and background conditions I can affect); semi-controllables (require sustained effort or some co-operation of others – may or may not happen) and uncontrollables (accept they won’t happen and in Stoic terms prepare for the worst).”
I personally would still prepare for the worst and strive my best in your “semi-controllables”. Sometime, even our sustained effort may not fruit as we wish, so we need to a prepare or even expect.
[“We have something in Christianity called the ‘Serenity Prayer’ (you have probably heard of it). It reads:
“God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference”]
Yes, my favorite therapist (in message to Marcia) introduced it to me. It’s similar to Stoic principles. It’s extremely hard to reach three goals. Many modern people lack the third, therefore can’t achieve the first two.
“The serenity one, usually said in 12-step programme meetings etc for addiction, I find good to apply to my situation. I think it matches a bit (not fully) with your “prepare for the worst but strive for the best” type idea. “The worst is located in the uncontrollables, the best is in the controllables.”
They all fall in Stoic principles. I’m glad you found the correlations for yourself and Christian brothers/sisters here. 😀
“I am not going to lie and say I never had that fantasy about her. I think my T mind tries to deny it at times, but F knows the truth.
It’s “Human, All Too Human”! But I got “nuclear missile” filed at me repeatedly for thinking about what you and many Limmies think… 🤕 😭 💦 🪣 💦 😭 🤭
“But I think I wasn’t that clear with you before when we discussed that dream. I was working from a source I am guilty of not checking out properly, that said the unconscious kind of ‘substitutes’ something outrageous into dreams when it doesn’t want to face what’s real. It is another take on dream interpretation but I never meant to imply Jung said it …”
I haven’t learned about other dream theories, but only a bit of Freud and mostly Jung. Once I checked out Jungian theory with many of my dreams, I did not bother with any other types of dream interpretations. I didn’t read any book that arrogant therapist recommended to me, although she has a Ph.D.
“I do get loads of ‘outrageous substitutions’ in dreams so I felt that idea was worth a look, but I probably just lazily applied it because it seemed to conveniently fit my experience – bad scientist! “
I don’t want to say that Jung’s dream theory is more accurate than any other modules. Even Jung himself said that it’s up to dreamer’s own interpretations; if they are beneficial to the dreamer’s mind, then adopt them; if detrimental, therapist then may suggest/intervene with another perspective, helping the dreamer to recognize and overcome some psychological issues. There is no absolute science here, but subjective perception/interpretation that should aim to reduce mental stresses.
🦜
“I’m going to break your long post into parts to respond, since some of them would take more time and thought to replay.”
👍 and same. I will never be able to keep up for any period with the speed of exchange of lengthy coffehouse chats that you and 😎🍫 manage. I am happy if our 🗣 progress 🐌and more 🧩🧩
“That’s what I meant to say but couldn’t, can’t you see that? Knowing my lot, you’ll have to deduce what I wanted to say but sometime unable.”
I am confident we’re on the same 📄 here, but both being 〰️ 〰️ in our own 👻✍️ ways because we can’t be any other way. I might be being naive, but I think you and I have enough of a sense of each other’s words now to deduce correctly on this matter.
“But motives behind bamboozlement is worth of a bit thoughts, isn’t it?”
💯 it is!
“Knowing you’re an hard egg to bamboozle, one still skillfully does it nonetheless, why❓”
I am not sure if ‘you’ here is meant to relate to ‘me personally’, or more ”collective’.
If collective, some, including bystanders, will always be bamboozled (that’s an ‘accept as beyond controllable’ variable). But the more worthy the opponent, the more bizarre and ‘away from usual logic’ the tactics have to become – as has been your received experience of Wittgenstein, and mine.
If me personally, people can try to bamboozle with words but they’ll rarely succeed. I can be bamboozled by all sorts of things, but not so much words. If a brilliant mind can bamboozle me with words, then credit to them – it says much for their brilliance. The words of other ‘brilliant’ minds are still like 🪟 to me though.
For you, the ESL introduces a slightly unfair element to 🗣🤺 if comparing how a NS can be in the language vs a NNS (For absolute clarity – though I am pretty certain you know this already- this is not a point about you and I; I would not try to milk my NS status as a way to ‘Wittgenstein’ you or anybody else. Anything I do unclearly with words is down to my own failings, not tactics).
“Only so many hours in the day. Invest effort based on an assessment of the return on effort. Don’t waste it. “
“Actually, efforts ARE made on both sides, when a verbal dueling is perceived by your opponent … [etc]”
Then zero visible effort is better. When something is ‘unwinnable’ (due to externals), better to accept that than to keep trying and to ‘lose’.
“Just some random thoughts that bring me peace and quiet 😊.”
You made a very considered analysis – perhaps more than I feel is merited – in the message that led to that. I agree so very much with all you said in it. If correct, then it helps me have some more understanding not only of what you intended, but also about another troublesome, troubled and ruminated-upon ‘mind’ in my near orbit. I think nearly all you said there is likely to be 👍✖️🕑 .
There is just one bit I want to question, about that kind of mind:
“it also desires deep love, too! But somehow the mind is driven to the opposite direction by its extremely high sensitivity and unstoppable over-thinking”
Do you have any hunch as to the ‘why / how’ of that ‘somehow’? Why do they think the opposite to commonsense works? That seems so counter-intuitive, and a bit “Schroediger’s cat”.
🚜,
“I will never be able to keep up for any period with the speed of exchange of lengthy coffehouse chats that you and 😎🍫 manage. I am happy if our 🗣 progress 🐌and more 🧩🧩
Now, you see why INFPs could chat-along seamlessly with each other… 😀, the P is critical in it. I like 🐌 💡 🧩 as well, which keeps pumping ⛽️ to stretch my either lazy or restless 🧠. It naturally draws out my unknown thoughts/thinking….
“I am confident we’re on the same 📄 here, but both being 〰️ 〰️ in our own 👻✍️ ways because we can’t be any other way. I might be being naive, but I think you and I have enough of a sense of each other’s words now to deduce correctly on this matter.”
I agree with you here, particularly in this matter. Moreover, although I’m not a NS, I could sense stuff (from all posters), which I am often unable to verbally describe, let’s call it a “linguistic intuition.” Myself is dying curious about its accuracy, since this linguistic institution comes from a purely non-visual domain, without my five senses functioning at all! 🙄 If my 👀 can work, you’d see their marveling 😍 on sorts of observations!
“I am not sure if ‘you’ here is meant to relate to ‘me personally’, or more ”collective’.”
Not collective in one way; the matter is very individualistic…
“If collective, some, including bystanders, will always be bamboozled (that’s an ‘accept as beyond controllable’ variable). “
It would serve one of intended purposes… 😃
“But the more worthy the opponent, the more bizarre and ‘away from usual logic’ the tactics have to become – as has been your received experience of Wittgenstein, and mine.”
It was NOT obvious of Wittgenstein treatment of me for a long time, (maybe it was indeed NOT, more than 1.5 or even 0.25 years ago❓), or perhaps my ignorant 🎃 🧠 just could not 🔎 it — a realization obtained from my chats with my insightful 😎 🍫, or I needed to totally come out LE first, to clearly 👁️ it.
“If me personally, people can try to bamboozle with words but they’ll rarely succeed. I can be bamboozled by all sorts of things, but not so much words.”
That’s an established fact. I wish I could take more private ESL tutoring with you, while closely watching your dances with your words here.
“If a brilliant mind can bamboozle me with words, then credit to them – it says much for their brilliance. The words of other ‘brilliant’ minds are still like 🪟 to me though.”
Not with words, but with the logic — Wittgenstein sharp insight on how words could be played illogically, as long as speakers are not, or deliberately choose not, on the same page. I just remembered in this second a short funny conversation between Humpty Dumpty 🥚 and a little girl(?), in which 🥚 defines his own meaning of commons words. (I’ll google it out, it caught my eyes a long while ago). You really can’t “beat” 🥚 in that case, since 🥚 wants the last word, ALWAYS.
“For you, the ESL introduces a slightly unfair element to 🗣🤺 if comparing how a NS can be in the language vs a NNS “
Very much so❗️ Thus I have to pay attention to contents (instead of tone or connotation of words), did they somewhat merit or were they logical based on whatever I’ve honestly told, or were they utterly preposterous❓ When finally 👁️ its amusing absurdity and the total opposite of my consistent facts, I couldn’t help 🤭 … What are you going to do with a Don Quixote waving his sword at the windmill❓😂 (as modern readers know, that DQ was not really mad, just smartly choose to appear mad, romantically in a general sense, better, for some people, than that incisive, over-thinking Hamlet!)
“Then zero visible effort is better. When something is ‘unwinnable’ (due to externals), better to accept that than to keep trying and to ‘lose’.”
Just keep 🥚 in mind and 🤭. There is no wining or losing based on Wittgenstein theory, and the 🥚 game could last until Doomsday of the humanity. 😃 (you can find more answers in this the posts of last night and this morning… about letting the history go… )
“You made a very considered analysis – perhaps more than I feel is merited – in the message that led to that. I agree so very much with all you said in it. “
The reason my anger could not last long (in post to 😎 🍫) is that, after growing up in COO, I tend to dig, as a hobby, all possible reasons behind all behaviors, particular bizarre ones. A clear, brilliant mind doesn’t go randomly “crazy”, but a confused or insecure/scared one could, especially triggered.
“If correct, then it helps me have some more understanding not only of what you intended, but also about another troublesome, troubled and ruminated-upon ‘mind’ in my near orbit. I think nearly all you said there is likely to be 👍✖️🕑 .”
I’m so glad that you find it helpful even in your hear orbit! I want to cover a slightly larger, more general scope in my baby-step, guessing analysis, instead of aiming at one specific case. Otherwise, it turns to a personal psychoanalysis, which is not fair/right — I’m neither a professional nor know the personnel. I do not live in anyone else’s head. But, I did have a very limited experiences with the similar mindset, but still can’t generalize for even just two people in the same group.
“There is just one bit I want to question, about that kind of mind:”
“Do you have any hunch as to the ‘why / how’ of that ‘somehow’? “
Yes. A strong one… but might be totally wrong.
“Why do they think the opposite to commonsense works? That seems so counter-intuitive, and a bit “Schroediger’s cat”.
I don’t think the mind is consciously making it work, perhaps testing the water, or perhaps defending a perceived threat❓It felt like a self-defense and self-protection, shielding a deep fear /dread of some kind of rejections that have been painfully experienced before by the said mind. And once triggered in that slot, the mind would be driven neurally (OCD, Autism?) to wave a sword to frantically fend off the possibly similar pains perceived coming… while actually there is no wind in the sky even to spin the windmill…
What has puzzled me is HOW a 🎃 🧠 “tantrum-throwing toddler” was PERCEIVED as Madame de Staël to Napoleon, then confusedly given/deserved much of his attentive, verbal bombardment …⁉️ Then out of blue (after her tiny, genuine compliment), she received his “anonymous” bouquet, perhaps done utterly in his “delusion” (as he clearly concluded), during his exile after Waterloo Battle❓Isn’t the world fascinating ⁉️ 😀
Have a great day, 🎩 🌽!
🏵🌱🍑,
“Now, you see why INFPs could chat-along seamlessly with each other… 😀, the P is critical in it”
I am on record for my admiration of the P trait. I am slowly working on being more like that on some LwL replies. But it occasionally means I fire something off in a way that my dominant J is unhappy with later (but that’s nothing to do with other matters under discussion).
“I could sense stuff (from all posters), which I am often unable to verbally describe, let’s call it a “linguistic intuition.” Myself is dying curious about its accuracy, since this linguistic institution comes from a purely non-visual domain, without my five senses functioning at all!”
I find I can sense / intuit quite a lot about different posters – increasingly so when I have read their posts over time or have interacted with them, but I sometimes get a good sense / intuition quickly.
That kind of flies in the face of my “93% meaning lacking in words” claim, but I feel I can figure quite a lot out with the 7% – I think it’s helped by my dominant N trait. It will never truly be tested but I do think I have reasonable feel for what many LwLers would be like in real life and who I’d get on with. Do you think that’s misguided? I think you also do.
“It would serve one of intended purposes… 😃”
Yes, we’re in tune there. Like a 👍👏 😆🤺? To matter, needs all parties to care. There’s just too much 🥭🥝🍍🍏🍉🥑🍌🍐🍅🍊🍑🍓🍋🍈 for 🚜🕑🌱
“It was NOT obvious of Wittgenstein treatment of me for a long time … or perhaps my ignorant 🎃 🧠 just could not 🔎 it”
I would say obvious to me from the first moment 🚜🗣🌱🌽 (a year now) – before that it is hazy, incomplete and non-linear. All I would be sure on is ‘not initially’ (what 🦜 believed was good, was indeed good), and I don’t know why the ⚖️↘️, but would make educated guesses that would probably be similar to yours.
I used to think you blamed your ESL a lot when myself, I found your language easy enough to understand. Not grammatically perfect, OK, but also not to a level that impeded understanding. You may have put it down to inability to decode language when in fact nobody can really decode illogic.
“I wish I could take more private ESL tutoring with you, while closely watching your dances with your words here.”
Those are very kind words – a sincere compliment! I will buck the 🇬🇧 awkward trend and accept it gracefully.
Now for the quickfire round (I can do this quick thinking direct P stuff!)
“I just remembered in this second a short funny conversation between Humpty Dumpty 🥚 and a little girl(?), in which 🥚 defines his own meaning of commons words.”
Would be interested to see that.
“You really can’t “beat” 🥚 in that case, since 🥚 wants the last word, ALWAYS.”
The only way to win is by doing nothing.
“When finally 👁️ its amusing absurdity and the total opposite of my consistent facts, I couldn’t help 🤭”
There was one particular time in the last month when that became acutely obvious if it wasn’t before.
“What are you going to do with a Don Quixote waving his sword at the windmill❓😂”
Let Don wave the sword, hide and watch from a safe distance?
“still can’t generalize for even just two people in the same group.”
I think the tree has many many branches.
“shielding a deep fear /dread of some kind of rejections that have been painfully experienced before”
Yes
” … a 🎃 🧠 “tantrum-throwing toddler… ”
Could even that description be Wittgenstein / 🥚? Remove the premise and the rest goes out of the window too.
“Then out of blue (after her tiny, genuine compliment), she received his “anonymous” bouquet, perhaps done utterly in his “delusion” (as he clearly concluded), during his exile after Waterloo Battle❓”
I don’t remember Madame de Staël complimenting or being given a 💐 by Mr Bonaparte? Do you mean a 🪞?
“Isn’t the world fascinating ⁉️ 😀”
Too true. Much else to come back to. I think we’re in fairly clear waters with most of this, so I’ll try to get back to other bits next time.
Marcia,
“That’s what I thought of my last LO. The attraction was so strong! Of course I could lure him away!”
I did not try to lure ET away at all for the first 4 years (he initiated 3 coffee suggestions, only 3rd one took place followed by my LC). EA did not exist in COO or in my mind before coming to LwL. As I told you last year, even when ET asked in the 4th year, “Is this an affair?” I said, “I don’t think so.” For me, if there is no physical contact, like holding hands, kissing or having sex, then it is not an affair. Also I had been subconsciously looking for a surrogate dad (especially right after Dad’s unexpected death), so I just wanted his ”EA” to comfort/care for me. In COO, your kind of EA was/is much tolerated as long as there is no physical intimacy.
“That’s true. Just when you think you have someone figured out … they do something screwy.”
Soooo true! By nature, human behaviors are flaky/illogical, almost with no exception.
“Thought polices are evil creatures on this earth!”
“I shan’t argue with you on that one. 🙂”
I think they thought-police themselves as well, usually driven or slaved by a set of inhuman ideology/religion, so pathetic/sad!
]” In COO, romance was/is never so complicated like what I hear in this site.”
But is it us LIMERENTS who make it complicated?! 🙂 I think it is!]
Based on DrL, we make 50-60% percent of population in the West. And Romanticism is much stronger than in the East and other developing countries, so one’s romance life is so complicated here… Before I didn’t understand the fuss in all media/books, now I know.
“Just wait until you get old. Most of that attention that irritates you now … will stop, and you’ll miss it. I know you’re going to argue with me on that one, but I’m totally serious. You will miss it.”
I won’t argue with you on this, but change a couple of words here, “Just wait until you look and act old…” I wonder how Greta Garbo felt when she got older. Marilyn Monroe Moor was “lucky” not have to deal with her old age. “Aging”, “Mid age crisis”, mean or matter little in COO, where age is respected (considered experience/wisdom related) under its filial culture. It’s so freakishly, unhealthily emphasized in the States.
“Because they wanted the attention! They wanted you as an option! They wanted you on standby. On the backburner. It’s extremely selfish. It’s a horrible thing to do to someone.”
That’s why I repeatedly said that I have wished so much that I could have found LwL much earlier to hear someone to shout these truthful words to me‼️ But I DID get my cptsd treated/healed through this painful LE! In its 2nd year, I determined to find/build some emotional shields so as not to feel so much mental/emotional pains. I’ve built one — Stoicism + individuation + Buddhism, in 6 years since May of 2019.
“That’s why it’s so, so, so important to pay more attention to someone’s behavior. It was a very hard lesson for me to learn. Why be so attentive if they have no intention of following through?”
Believe me, I’ll spot a next flaky LO in no time. I’m super-fast learner (aside from science or engineering), coupled with my sharp intuition and improved emotional intelligence. LwL is a great “Reality-Classroom. “
“Well, sometimes you might not notice someone who noticed you. I don’t see anything wrong with an approach. As long as it ‘s nice and pleasant. It doesn’t bother me. Even if I’m not necessarily interested. No harm, no foul.”
“Nice and sophisticated” strangers don’t usually approach me, only bold, insensitive, annoying ones. At work or social setting, I could usually detect when other men noticed me or became stuttered while trying to speak to me. Of course, I didn’t mind.
”I’ve had the opposite. So much safety … I’m falling into a sexual coma! 🙂
I’m being sarcastic. But you get the idea.”
I experienced “sexual coma” while dating some app men, literally falling in sleep in the middle of it… But I got my best Russian and French lover (both single). Couldn’t cultivate glimmer for them. Narc LO6 was great in bed; otherwise, I’d have walked away much sooner (1.5 year).
“10 what? Attractions? Potential glimmers?”
10 Level 7-8 glimmer with some interactions. There was never potential, or developed glimmer situations in my romance life, it either took place in first 5-6 seconds when I first spotted the guy or never later.
“I don’t know how many crushes I’ve had. I’d have to think about it. They didn’t make as big an impact, so I’m sure I wouldn’t even remember some of them.”
Maybe those 4.1…4.9 glimmers were just crushes based on your definition, except LE4.5 that hurt me for a year afterwards. Long-distance LO4.5 was divorced father, parental-figure, but also Macho, an open womanizer/playboy; I was even willing to relocate to his area, but stopped before I signed a sublease. There was not enough EA for me from his side; I did/do not want to be “one of” gfs or pieces on anyone’s ego-fuel matrix.
”Your mom had LOs? My family is much too boring and middle class for that kind of intrigue. 🙂”
My Mom was a full-blown Narc, who physically and psychologically abused me and who also had 3-4 PAs during their marriage. She dragged little me to date that Russian-speaking LO with his little boy as their cover. Then Dad thought to officially swap with that LO’s wife but did not pull off… Later two couples remained as friends all the following years until both men died, and that LO’s wife is still one of Mom’s few friends! Aren’t some COO intellectuals too forgiven/“weak without backbones”⁉️ As a teenager, I incidentally heard Dad’s recounts of all Mom’s PAs to Granny, and never understand how why and how he had forgiven her again and again. Mom tried to hit on two of my bfs, one was LO6, who could speak COO tongue. Can’t tell you how much I despise her — I can never be a 90% buddhist!
If you have lived through my kind of “dramatic” experiences in both worlds, you’d probably feel this world is really bizarre, with little logic.
Snow,
“EA did not exist in COO or in my mind before coming to LwL.”
You don’t live there anymore, right?
Do you live in the West now?
” As I told you last year, even when ET asked in the 4th year, “Is this an affair?” I said, “I don’t think so.” ”
I have to be honest … I kind of dig this. It’s pretty direct.
“For me, if there is no physical contact, like holding hands, kissing or having sex, then it is not an affair. ”
I’d say it’s not a physical affair. But two people can still get very close and have an EA. There can be a level of intimacy and dependency that threatens a relationship.
“I think they thought-police themselves as well, usually driven or slaved by a set of inhuman ideology/religion, so pathetic/sad!”
Are you talking about the actual police or the thought police? I’d say the police themselves do have a certain group-think mentality and certain personalities seem to be attracted to the profession.
That being said, I was just watching a documentary about Enron and the level of group think … was ridiculous. Employees didn’t question anything; they really drank the Kool Aid. Well, most employees. There were a few whistle blowers.
“Based on DrL, we make 50-60% percent of population in the West. ”
Is is that high? That seems really high to me.
“Before I didn’t understand the fuss in all media/books, now I know.”
But don’t you consider yourself a romantic? You seem to have experienced a lot of glimmers.
” Marilyn Monroe was “lucky” not have to deal with her old age. ”
That may be why she checked out early. She saw the writing on the wall. Can’t be the hot thing forever.
““Aging”, “Mid age crisis”, mean or matter little in COO, where age is respected (considered experience/wisdom related) under its filial culture. It’s so freakishly, unhealthily emphasized in the States.”
Have you not picked up or internalized any Western ideas? It’s hard not to if you live there.
And respect is different than desire. Are older people still desired in your COO?
I agree that the States are obsessed with aging and youth (particularly in women) but I’m not writing about something that’s just happened to me. Pull up Paulina Porizkova on Dr. Phil’s tv show on YouTube. She was a famous supermodel from the ’80s and ’90s. She said she felt invisible once she hit 45. AND SHE WAS A SUPERMODEL!
“That’s why I repeatedly said that I have wished so much that I could have found LwL much earlier to hear someone to shout these truthful words to me”
I actually did have people telling me the truth. I didn’t listen.
“Believe me, I’ll spot a next flaky LO in no time. ”
I can spot it. I could spot in, even during my last LE. But will I act accordingly next time? Will I back away? I hope so.
“Nice and sophisticated” strangers don’t usually approach me, only bold, insensitive, annoying ones.”
Oh, ok. I sometimes start a little chit chat in elevators or in grocery store lines, things like that. I’m not really hitting on anyone, but if a guy did that and was pleasant, it wouldn’t bother me. But I don’t necessarily look at that as him “approaching” me unless he has really creepy energy (which is rare) or is really obvious (maybe asks for my number, etc). A guy just talking to me is just talking to me.
“At work or social setting, I could usually detect when other men noticed me or became stuttered while trying to speak to me. Of course, I didn’t mind.”
In my current job, I’ve had one male co-worker flirt with me. That’s it. I don’t know if it’s because I’m 107 or if they’re afraid to flirt after MeToo.
The others will talk to me and joke around, but I get zero flirty vibes from them.
“I experienced “sexual coma” while dating some app men, literally falling in sleep in the middle of it… ”
Really? You fell asleep in the middle of sex? 🙂
“But I got my best Russian and French lover (both single). Couldn’t cultivate glimmer for them.”
I don’t know if I could have great sex with a man I hadn’t glimmered for; that being said, just because I did glimmer (was highly attracted) didn’t mean the sex was great.
“My Mom was a full-blown Narc, who physically and psychologically abused me and who also had 3-4 PAs during their marriage. She dragged little me to date that Russian-speaking LO with his little boy as their cover. Then Dad thought to officially swap with that LO’s wife but did not pull off… Later two couples remained as friends all the following years until both men died, and that LO’s wife is still one of Mom’s few friends! Aren’t some COO intellectuals too forgiven/“weak without backbones”⁉️”
So this woman wasn’t upset your mother was having an affair with her husband? Your father may have gotten with the wife as … revenge. Anger at your mother. Not knowing what else to do.
“Mom tried to hit on two of my bfs, one was LO6, who could speak COO tongue.”
She had no boundaries. May have been competing with you.
Marcia,
“You don’t live there anymore, right? Do you live in the West now?
Yes, I’ve been living in the West for a while. But it doesn’t mean I know the new culture in all its aspects, unless specific experiences have brought me insightful learning. Just check immigrants around you to see how much they understand some essence of the Westerner culture or how much they still hold onto their native concepts. 👩🦰 🏃 says he has not dealt with people of my background in his reality.
“I have to be honest … I kind of dig this. It’s pretty direct.”
Not to me at all, up to the time you analyzed this last year. As LaR defines, EA exists only between unavailable people (at least one side). I never had a relationship in which the other side was legally unavailable. In addition, COO only consider a physical affair as an Affair.
“I’d say it’s not a physical affair. But two people can still get very close and have an EA. There can be a level of intimacy and dependency that threatens a relationship.”
You’re talking about unavailable LO or limerent here. If both are available, you call it normal emotional/romantic connection, not EA.
“Are you talking about the actual police or the thought police? I’d say the police themselves do have a certain group-think mentality and certain personalities seem to be attracted to the profession.”
I was talking about the thought police both in personal and national level (a stone always aims at two or more birds…). It still exists in COO and you read in “1984”. The “Big Brother” brainwashes every citizen to police themselves, while installing high positioned, secret thought police (Brain in “1984”) — plain clothed national security members, you have them here, too; but not massive on a national level.
COO’s Big Brother is doing it nowadays through internet, as long as you have a smart phone. If I say one thing out loud against that government lead even in this site, they’ll locate my physical residence within 24 hours. It’s safer for me to use “COO”. 👩🦰 🏃 knows how such a system works in 🇺🇸.
“Based on DrL, we make 50-60% percent of population in the West. ”
Is is that high? That seems really high to me.”
DrL talked about the statistics in several posts. 50-60% people (minus children) in their lifetime have experienced LE, not all at the same time, of course.
“But don’t you consider yourself a romantic? You seem to have experienced a lot of glimmers.”
I consider myself a romantic in most life matters, not just in romance (probably wired since birth). I can romanticize doing laundry, or grocery shopping, or stamping a letter. I give a meaning to most matters I have dealt with, even before knowing who Jean Sartre is. Yep, I’ve experienced a lot of glimmers, and felt the same intensity at the first sight. Some glimmers lasted for 1-4 years without any interaction — other side and myself was unavailable (3 glimmers non-acted during my marriage).
“That may be why she checked out early. She saw the writing on the wall. Can’t be the hot thing forever.”
What a tragedy. Unwise! Why did she or anyone need to be attractive all the time? If you’re a small version of Marilyn Monroe (MM), not working in entrainment industry, what would you do?
“Have you not picked up or internalized any Western ideas? It’s hard not to if you live there.”
I’ve picked up perhaps 20-30 percent in this regard, and did go any further. It’s superficial for vanity, that often brings one unhappiness or even misery. No one can attempt me into this unhealthy mindset. And I’m quite content on my own.
“And respect is different than desire. Are older people still desired in your COO?”
Yes, older people are still respected in COO, in most public services. They’re not “desired” in romantic ways. My question for you (collective) here: Why does one need to be desired, and even for lifetime? (for babies/kids to be loved unconditionally, Yes!) Where does this need come from? If one is hotly desired, like MM, would she/he obtain all steady, lasting joys/happiness? Did Elvis, James Dean, Michael Jackson, Prince get it?
“I agree that the States are obsessed with aging and youth (particularly in women) but I’m not writing about something that’s just happened to me. Pull up Paulina Porizkova on Dr. Phil’s tv show on YouTube. She was a famous supermodel from the ’80s and ’90s. She said she felt invisible once she hit 45. AND SHE WAS A SUPERMODEL!”
I’ve seen Pauline Porizkova on internet. Again, why a supermodel needs to be visible or popular in all her life time? Everyone has their peek, glamorous time and will all age and decline/die, it’s the Nature. Why is it so hard to peacefully accept the nature? She can keep a great memory of being super hot and live comfortably /contently in her accumulated wealth.
It’s like in COO, for thousands of years, emperors and wealthy people all sought elixir for immortality, not so much of youth, though. I think such a desire against the nature only brings one discontent or even mysteries.
“I can spot it. I could spot in, even during my last LE. But will I act accordingly next time? Will I back away? I hope so.”
I hope so, too. With LwL’s wisdom and my Narc pride, I think I can.
“Oh, ok. I sometimes start a little chit chat in elevators or in grocery store lines, things like that. I’m not really hitting on anyone, but if a guy did that and was pleasant, it wouldn’t bother me. But I don’t necessarily look at that as him “approaching” me unless he has really creepy energy (which is rare) or is really obvious (maybe asks for my number, etc). A guy just talking to me is just talking to me.”
I did such public chitchat here (not in elevators), too, mostly with women. In COO, most men or women give me this “wired” look, so I kept quiet or smiled to their willingness to assist/serve my needs (COO’s bureaucracy is beyond your imagination). In France, Italy, and here in parks and side walks, some bold men stopped me, wanting to get to know me… 😮
“In my current job, I’ve had one male co-worker flirt with me. That’s it. I don’t know if it’s because I’m 107 or if they’re afraid to flirt after MeToo. The others will talk to me and joke around, but I get zero flirty vibes from them.”
Sis, I’m 286, and got 27 yrs pet limerent last fall semester eye-drooling in my class and tried to something disgusting in his attempt to pass the oral exam. Luckily, he was not smart enough to pass my course, so he had to go! (I never gave undeserved scores even to my top, favored students.)
“Really? You fell asleep in the middle of sex? 🙂”
Yes, with a 30s lawyer from dating app! He did not know how to fiddle his “violin stick”. (📣 🚜: keep any lawyers out of ❤️ 🛖!)
“I don’t know if I could have great sex with a man I hadn’t glimmered for; that being said, just because I did glimmer (was highly attracted) didn’t mean the sex was great.”
I did not know I could, either. In hindsight, I analyzed it and understood it’s because I had zero anxiety and expectations from them, not worried at all about what they’d think of me or what’s going to happen next. They helped break all sorts of taboos installed in me earlier in COO. With LO, I was anxious about their thoughts/emotions about/for me.
“So this woman wasn’t upset your mother was having an affair with her husband? Your father may have gotten with the wife as … revenge. Anger at your mother. Not knowing what else to do.”
I don’t know for sure to this day if that woman was upset or not; I assume she did! I like her a lot, warm, sincere, artistic, eloquent… an extrovert (I’d prefer her to be my step-Mom). From Dad and Granny’s conversation, I don’t think Dad had PA with her, but just sat down for a talk about what to do with their Lim-spouse. But they four remained as family friends and still got together. I guess in COO when external environment was so oppressive, one just wanted to enjoy whatever they could get (glimmer and PA) before they could be possibly sent to another secret labor camp or an exile. Life is short.
As far as I know, Dad never had a PA to his death although he was “hot” since young (the smartest in the family), I saw other women openly flirting with him, and Mom complained to me about other women’s flirting with him or attempting to touch his hand in public.
“She had no boundaries. May have been competing with you.”
Most COO folks would NOT have your concept of “boundaries, different in different cultures that also shape one’s psychology. Mom is an authentic Narc based on the Western criteria (she absolutely denied it), who competed with anyone due to her deep insecurity, so obviously flicking in her eyes to this day. She competed with me for Dad’s love and some stupid material stuff. She even tried to flirt with my college students 2 years ago, who could be her grandchildren.
Now, I just keep a Buddhistic 🕉️ mind while dealing with her, so not to lose my even or good moods.
Typo: “I’ve picked up perhaps 20-30 percent in this regard, and did NOT go any further.”
Add: I almost never got joy and fulfillment in Macho COO just being “Attractive” (except in brief LE1), but discomfort, isolation and fear. All my happiness and fulfillment came from academic achievement, enjoyment of great literature/films and my own writing, and a few good connection/friendship (perhaps not by your definition in terms of how much personal stuff exchanged — one’s emotional life was excluded in COO).
Add: one of Mom’s PAs was known by the official, so she was “sentenced” to an exile in a remote, barren village. Dad was given an option to divorce her and stay in the city, but he chose to go with her. Then 2.5 years in exile. Was Dad a Saint? I don’t think so. He has some Narc traits as well, who does not⁉️
Illegitimate LE in COO was no joking matter. Going into PA could have one’s life hung in the line! But PA existed in any given time. EA was/is nothing.
The government still punishes some alleged high rank “PA” officials or use it as means to bring them down in power. For ordinary folks, only their spouses care or not. It’s easier to get a divorce nowadays. Two of my gfs’ husbands left them for other chicks. One of them happily remarried.
Pure romance or EA without practicality has almost never existed or survived in COO. Between brain/wisdom and heart/love, one most likely chooses the former. I was one of the rare species to choose both/cohabitant, if possible, or just the forme, because LE affection fades once they are reciprocated, but love of 7 types combined has a chance to survive and last.
Snow,
“Not to me at all, up to the time you analyzed this last year. As LaR defines, EA exists only between unavailable people (at least one side). I never had a relationship in which the other side was legally unavailable.”
But you wrote that some of these guys had girlfriends. I’d consider anyone who was seriously involved with someone else unavailable. They don’t have to be married.
And if two people get very close, in my opinion, that can be very threatening to a relationship. I’d say more threatening than a PA if a PA is just physical.
Personally, I probably would have interpreted your LO’s question as an invitation for a PA. You were already friends who shared a lot, so there was some kind of emotional connection/EA going on. It sounds like he was willing to follow through. Not just going to toy with you for the attention/validation.
“In addition, COO only consider a physical affair as an Affair.”
I don’t happen to agree with that. If it’s a PA with some actual feelings, of course it’s threatening to a relationship. A PA without feelings is, too, of course, but I’d say an EA is more threatening. A one-night stand with someone the person doesn’t care about is far less threatening than an EA with someone the person falls for.
“You’re talking about unavailable LO or limerent here. If both are available, you call it normal emotional/romantic connection, not EA.”
I agree.
“It still exists in COO and you read in “1984”.”
I haven’t read that book. Just “Animal Farm.”
“If I say one thing out loud against that government lead even in this site, they’ll locate my physical residence within 24 hours. It’s safer for me to use “COO”. ”
Even if you’re living outside of the country? Do you ever plan on moving back?
“DrL talked about the statistics in several posts. 50-60% people (minus children) in their lifetime have experienced LE, not all at the same time, of course.”
I found that post. I’d say it’s probably correct. At least half of those surveyed has felt what I call the early part of limerence. The initial part of romantic love. The infatuation, the thinking about the person all the time. However, I don’t think half the population has experienced the latter part or the darker side, when limerence gets “stuck” and the limerent obsesses over it for years. Although there are an awful lot of people who have “the one who got away” stuck in their head. So maybe that percentage fits both parts of limerence. I don’t know.
“I consider myself a romantic in most life matters, not just in romance (probably wired since birth). I can romanticize doing laundry, or grocery shopping, or stamping a letter.”
I am the total opposite. The practical stuff … I zone out. I mentally check out as much as possible. I have little interest in it. If I had money, I’d pay someone to do those things for me.
But when it comes to romance and even friendship … I’m pretty emotional and high strung.
“Some glimmers lasted for 1-4 years without any interaction — other side and myself was unavailable (3 glimmers non-acted during my marriage).”
I don’t know if I could maintain some kind of infatuated feelings for someone who I didn’t interact with. I’d have to have some kind of sign they felt the same way. Or it would slowly fade. If they weren’t flirty or complimentary, for example, I think the feelings would at least die way down to low-burning embers.
“Why did she or anyone need to be attractive all the time?”
Uh … because that was her brand. Of course, her appeal was far more than her appearance. HOWEVER … a big part of her appeal was her physicality. And she knew that.
“If you’re a small version of Marilyn Monroe (MM), not working in entrainment industry, what would you do?”
That’s what I’m trying to figure out! How do you relate to men when a big part of what you used to relate to them with is gone?
“It’s superficial for vanity, that often brings one unhappiness or even misery. No one can attempt me into this unhealthy mindset. And I’m quite content on my own.”
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to be attractive. Or wanting to attract men. It’s by no means all of who a woman is. Not by a long shot. But it’s part of her identity. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Paulina still wanting to be seen as attractive. And she even said herself, “Now wait a minute. I’m more interesting now.” She’s more interesting now that she’s older but because she’s older, she’s invisible! Talk about irony. And I’m sure she is more interesting. She has decades of a life of learning and growing and experiences. She said, “There’s the beauty of youth and the beauty of maturity. We need to reframe our thinking.” I agree with her. But it’s not happening in the U.S.
“Yes, older people are still respected in COO, in most public services. They’re not “desired” in romantic ways. ”
I’d take desired over respected.
“I’ve seen Pauline Porizkova on internet. Again, why a supermodel needs to be visible or popular in all her life time? ”
Because she was single. She wanted to attract a partner. What’s wrong with that? Although I’d think, even if she had a partner, she’d still find it gratifying to attract some male attention. Isn’t that what all this middle-aged limerence is partly about? Wanting to be still be seen as desirable?
“Everyone has their peek, glamorous time and will all age and decline/die, it’s the Nature. Why is it so hard to peacefully accept the nature?”
I think this is a dated attitude. Why can’t you still be vital and sexy as you age?
” In France, Italy, and here in parks and side walks, some bold men stopped me, wanting to get to know me… 😮”
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Provided how it’s done. I mean, if a woman is, for example, wearing headphones and looking down at her phone … she doesn’t want to be approached. That seems self-evident. Guys should leave her alone.
“Sis, I’m 286, and got 27 yrs pet limerent last fall semester eye-drooling in my class and tried to something disgusting in his attempt to pass the oral exam.”
Was he trying to make a pass or pass the test? I wouldn’t take it too seriously if it was the former.
“Yes, with a 30s lawyer from dating app! He did not know how to fiddle his “violin stick”. ”
Didn’t he notice?
“I did not know I could, either. In hindsight, I analyzed it and understood it’s because I had zero anxiety and expectations from them, not worried at all about what they’d think of me or what’s going to happen next. They helped break all sorts of taboos installed in me earlier in COO. With LO, I was anxious about their thoughts/emotions about/for me.”
Ah, yes. That I can understand. It’s also true of attraction. If you AREN’T attracted, you can relax. Be yourself. And then those are the guys you will attract! Because you are relaxed and yourself!
“But they four remained as family friends and still got together.”
They certainly were very adult and mature about it.
” Mom complained to me about other women’s flirting with him or attempting to touch his hand in public.”
That’s ironic. Seeing as how you wrote how flirtatious she was.
“Most COO folks would NOT have your concept of “boundaries, ”
I mean, some people flirt with everyone. But I can’t imagine not feeling uncomfortable if my parent was flirting with my date/boyfriend.
“She even tried to flirt with my college students 2 years ago, who could be her grandchildren.”
It sounds like she needs to be the center of attention.
” I almost never got joy and fulfillment in Macho COO just being “Attractive” (except in brief LE1), but discomfort, isolation and fear. All my happiness and fulfillment came from academic achievement, enjoyment of great literature/films and my own writing, and a few good connection/friendship.”
I see what you are saying. Being attractive is a small part of life, but when you no longer have it, you really notice it.
“Add: one of Mom’s PAs was known by the official, so she was “sentenced” to an exile in a remote, barren village. Dad was given an option to divorce her and stay in the city, but he chose to go with her. Then 2.5 years in exile. Was Dad a Saint? I don’t think so. ”
Co-dependent relationship?
“because LE affection fades once they are reciprocated, but love of 7 types combined has a chance to survive and last.”
I agree. I don’t know why it’s taken me so long to figure that out.
Marcia,
“Because sex is … just sex. Emotional connection is much more powerful … and potentially detrimental to a relationship. That’s why I’m kind of baffled that some partnered/married people say they don’t care if their partner gets close with someone else, as long as there’s no sex involved.”
After knowing what EA means, I totally agree with you. That’s why I forgave quickly my LO4/SO’s 4 PAs (except his old college flame) flings after the engagement. That discovery came one month after our marriage, we’re still in much love. And we moved on.
“I’m confused. He said, two year earlier, that he did not want a PA? He used those exact words. “Keeping all intimacy with his family” is vague. One is not obviously having physical intimacy with family members other than a spouse. I don’t know what that means.”
I can’t locate that old mail easily now and gave you the exact wording, but I remember it clearly, it was something “my reserved right of (having?) intimacy with my family”, NOT “wife/spouse”. I was confused a bit, too. I didn’t know what his “intimacy” entailed, just assumed it was his indirect way to say “physical intimacy” with his SO.
“All I know is that when I’ve developed a close friendship with a man, he usually eventually started making sexual comments or suggestions at me. “
Not obvious with ET; actually he was never direct, always tactful, so was I.
“Maybe after the emotional closeness, they assumed physical closeness would follow. Whereas it’s not that way in female friendships. Women get very close and there’s no expectation of sex“
I agree with you between women. But even with men, without certain degree of emotional closeness with LO (anyone else is okay), I can’t get into a deep physical connection, perhaps too nervous without emotional “validation”?
“If I were to make another close male friend, I’d have “the conversation” with him so we were both on the same page rather than assuming. Maybe that was myopic of me.”
That would be smart way to approach it, for all of us.
“Well, he does have narcissistic tendencies if he has all these women orbiting him. He’s encouraging the attention. A guy with a bunch of women circling … needs a lot of attention.”
Based on “Sensor” defined by DrL, a Sensor can just like/enjoy inspiring others’ admiration, adoration, love for them, not necessary “need” (like a typical Narc). Some sensors actively chase, some just passively wait for us Limerents to fall into their orbit.
“Sounds like he was trying to draw you in. Or push the envelope. See how you’d respond. He was probably trying to figure you out.”
I was a “baby” in dealing with EA with a partnered guy, and could not figure out most of what he said or did in the early stage when he seemed to be “locked in” by my LE affection. Obviously, I could not ask anyone around, so embarrassing.
“At the time, I thought disclosure sounded like a bad idea. But it sounds like it helped you get closure and close the door on the LE.”
I waited for 9 months to do it on our last meeting. I really wanted to unload the LE weight, and to be the authentic myself at last. I didn’t care about his possible judgment, as if I was going to die the next day. But the door was not immediately closed after he’s gone…. Our LE brain can’t be shot down like flipping a power switch.
“I didn’t think my LO would leave his wife, and I would have never asked him to. I just wanted some big, sexy thing.”
You were so clear minded! I did not know clearly at all what I wanted in LE7; a deeper emotional connection for sure, but when he could not give it, I could not pull myself away
“I was always worried emotional expression would come across as me drooling over someone. And it’s so unattractive.”
The same here, only poetry or prose can substitute expressions of my emotions.
“Definitely. I’m a little better now. If I can get some perspective and realize I’m overreacting or overthinking about something.”
The similar here. My OCD is still same intense, but I’m more aware of it now, with more reasoning on what I was “obsessed” about.
“You asked me if being attractive to men is part of a woman’s identity. Yes, I think it is. Unless the woman is just not interested in men anymore or that part of her life.”
I’m still interested in men and having meaningful and fulfilling friendship or relationship, but I don’t look at such an interest as my innate and evolving identity — who am I? I don’t focus on this interests most of the time. If I bump into some interesting men organically, I’m not going to push them away. But you’re right, such interest is a part of one’s thoughts, which does comprises a part of one’s identity.
“I don’t agree. We’re social creatures. We need other people. Validation/attention that affirms our sexual appeal is just one thing. We also need love, acceptance, a sense of belonging, a sense of support, a sense of community, being seen and valued, etc. To deny that is to suppress one’s needs. Now, of course, some people need too much. But that’s another conversation.”
The word of “NEED” is too strong – meaning we can’t survive without, like air/water, it sounds “needy”. I admit we NEED them during our first 21/28 years when our neural system is growing and maturing.” Desire/want is more appropriate to describe what you just said. Here Sartre’s “Other people is hell” applies very well. You’re talking about positive side of socializing, but when it does NOT go well in many, many cases across the globe, what happens?
Having none or minimum expectations while making one’s best efforts to obtain one’s desires and pursue social/personal virtues IS basics of STOIC philosophy. It’s never about repressing one’s needs, which is also against Buddhism. I’m also 60-80% Buddhistic.
“I’m not just talking about romance. Could be friendship. Could be familial relationships. People have a need for other people.”
With much better self-reliant, economic conditions, many people are decreasing such a “traditional need”. During earlier agriculture stages, one can’t survive alone and has to rely on his/her clans/community.
“I agree. Love all three of those ladies, particularly Binoche, who is not classically beautiful but so interesting to watch. She has a unique sexiness. “
I think Binoche HAS a classical beauty and told you before that she would be the only woman on the earth I would consider a lesbian experience.
“One of the big differences in French films is that sex and nudity are just part of the movie. Part of the story. They’re handled very naturally. The people look normal. Neither is a big deal.”
Totally agree with you here! Love French cinemas, old and new; some Italian ones as well.
“In the U.S., the narrative around the film BECOMES the sex and the nudity and the actress will be asked how long she worked out to get in shape for the scenes!”
I rarely see Hollywood movies nowadays, actually for more than a decade already.
“Well, for example, in my last LE, I had reciprocation in terms of feelings. He disclosed. “
Wow, you were lucky! I would not have slipped into dark LE stages if it happened.
“But he wasn’t ever going to DO anything. And I waited around, hoping he’d change his mind. “
You desired a “big sexy” thing, and I did not, due to my painful LE2.
“That was a mistake. I wasted years of my life, hung up on someone who was never going to be an important part of my life and who I should have walked away from.”
Even if ET reciprocated both in EA, w/o PA, there would be just a dead end waiting — I told him so in writing back in 2019 when I started LC. I saw its futility, so refused his 1st casual coffee invite.
“Yeah, I’m sorry. I don’t agree. We always have free will. We always sense, in the back of our minds, the LE has put us in a very bad place. We don’t walk away because we don’t want to. Not that walking away isn’t extremely difficult. It is.”
But we need to know WAHT we are walking away from first! Many of us here had no idea of LE as a person addiction before coming to LwL. Some are still in the throe of the addition, so don’t want to or are unable to walk away. With all the LwL wisdom, I don’t think I can even slip into another LE. I killed 3 glimmers in the past 15 months, it took 1 month, 1 week, and 6 hours to extinguish the glimmer.
“I don’t think a lack of romance means someone is trapped. But you mentioned the spouse is cheating … and the person can’t leave because of finances. That’s being trapped. If you can’t leave and you want to, that’s being trapped.”
Some people/women think their husbands’ cheating or going to younger women is a part of biological/social condition, so they accept it with contentment. Granny agreed that my grandpa could take a 2nd wife, telling me that she felt no sexual desires after giving a birth to 5 children. It’s “unfair” or “unkind” to expect grandpa to go abstinence. That’s considered true “love” without any jealousy.
“I think that’s a suppression of needs.”
Stoicism is really not to kill or suppress one’s “needs”/desires, but reduce/kill one’s wishful expectations while making efforts to obtain one’s healthy needs.
“I don’t think it’s possible to validate your attractiveness to men on your own.”
I rarely cared that much about my attractiveness to men (to which men? Their tastes are vastly different), but to MYSELF (wasn’t clear about this in the past). Without self validation, one would not have enough self-confidence to even go out of the door. My Mom could even spot insecurity in my eyes!
Trust me, I have had more negative experiences about my attractiveness to men in general , I wanted to be left alone almost all the time! After coming to this country, I felt so much more at ease in public, I could be like a nameless fish swimming freely without causing any unwanted attentions.
[“Sartre famously said, “other people is hell!””
That’s true. Probably because our expectations are too high.]
Stoicism is to reduce expectations to 1% while still 99% striving to get where one wants to be. Stoicism is mental attitudes, emotional shield, psychological “tool” to help one get lasting joy, peace, fulfillment, not a mental butcher to kill one’s needs/desires.
“I mean, sure. But it’s awfully hard to have no expectations, particularly if one is limerent. “
That’s where I could use my Stoic practices.
“However, it’s best not to pedalstalize someone and be yourself around them. Hard to do if one is very invested. Because you want their attention and … well, validation.”
I’ve come to a point where I want to date myself, and I’m doing it now, while giving Agape 🧡 to others. I really no longer NEED any external validation in all regards, but will appreciate it if it is willingly given or suddenly dropped….
“Well, yeah, nothing quite beats sex with an LO, particularly if you like what they do. If you’re sexually compatible. It’s just hot. Of course, it fades. All of that fades!”
Exactly! “It fades and all of that fades”, possibly as fast as in a month!
“I agree with you. Intellectually. Sure. But some things we can’t validate on our own.”
Then it’s wise not to desire that impossible, external “validation”. It’s not repression, just being realistic.
“I agree with you. And if an LO appears who is another bad LO or bad situation, if one is purposefully living, it is much easier to stay away and not go off into the ditch of another LE. One is focused on one’s goals.”
Exactly. That’ what I meant that if one is purposefully living and “focused on one’s goals”, one could not care less about those external attention/validation. I don’t want to make relating to men as a main goal, but a byproduct that comes along with my pursuit of my purposeful goals.
“Me, too. I watch YouTube. Self-help. Documentaries. I don’t do social media but I do pay attention to pop culture.”
I don’t pay any attention to pop culture, but my own chosen books, poetry, philosophical and psychological talks/debates, documentary on writers, artists, architects, musicians, some interesting history. They are very engaging and inspirational. 💕
Marcia,
“After knowing what EA means, I totally agree with you.”
I have mixed feelings about it. Limerence is as limited as sex is. If you really boil it down to what it is …. hormones and a lot of projection of your own “stuff” onto the LO. It feels really big when you’re going through it. Like the world’s at stake. But you really don’t know what you have with someone until the barriers are removed and the limerence fades. I was watching this one lady on youtube … I think CSC recommended her. You’re limerent because of the barriers, not despite them. And that’s what happened with my one LO who eventually became a serious boyfriend. Barriers were removed, feelings really died down. Then I could really see if we were compatible. And we really weren’t. I didn’t even really like him that much as a person. I don’t know why I was so crazy about him in the beginning.
In essence … don’t blow up your life over limerence. Whether you have an SO or not.
“That’s why I forgave quickly my LO4/SO’s 4 PAs (except his old college flame) flings after the engagement. That discovery came one month after our marriage, we’re still in much love. And we moved on.”
Were you pretty young? I don’t know if I could have gotten beyond the flings if I was very young. When I was young, I thought sex was a really big deal.
“I didn’t know what his “intimacy” entailed, just assumed it was his indirect way to say “physical intimacy” with his SO.”
See … I might have interpreted it as … I can’t give you any intimacy. Including emotional, since you were sharing so much with him.
“Not obvious with ET; actually he was never direct, always tactful, so was I.”
But you knew you were getting close and sharing a lot of personal stuff. It doesn’t always have to be someone making sexual comments. But if there’s some emotional dependence.
“But even with men, without certain degree of emotional closeness with LO (anyone else is okay), I can’t get into a deep physical connection, perhaps too nervous without emotional “validation”?”
I can see what you are saying, but if I’m limerent, I “feel” so much that I mistake the emotional intensity for an emotional connection. Different than, say, a crush, where you can see what the connection is more clearly and understand … I don’t really know this guy very well. Although I’m attracted, for example.
” Some sensors actively chase, some just passively wait for us Limerents to fall into their orbit.”
It’s still narcissistic. They still sense the limerent’s attention and do nothing to deter it.
“But the door was not immediately closed after he’s gone…. Our LE brain can’t be shot down like flipping a power switch.”
That’s true. I think mine took a good 2 years to finally come to an end after I went NC (though it had greatly diminished by the time I went NC). And even now I’m still learning about my patterns and my weaknesses, etc.
“You were so clear minded!”
I just wanted to take that boy and spin him around! 😉
“a deeper emotional connection for sure, but when he could not give it, I could not pull myself away”
But you could have. That was a choice. Not to pull away.
Within a month or two, I was already questioning what mine was doing. His behavior was off and I knew it — lack of follow through, not asking for my number, disappearing/reappearing.
“The same here, only poetry or prose can substitute expressions of my emotions.”
You mean like give them poetry? I wouldn’t do that, either. That sounds over the top. Unless you’re in an established situation and both know how you feel.
“If I bump into some interesting men organically, I’m not going to push them away. But you’re right, such interest is a part of one’s thoughts, which does comprises a part of one’s identity.”
I’m kind of in the same boat. I’m trying to get out/socialize more, and if I happen to meet some men in the process, that’s fine. I’m just attending things that interest me. Now, I may change my mind. I might make it more of a priority to meet someone in the future. Hard to say.
“The word of “NEED” is too strong – meaning we can’t survive without, like air/water, it sounds “needy”.”
I don’t think it’s needy at all. To deny it is to put up some kind of wall.
“You’re talking about positive side of socializing, but when it does NOT go well in many, many cases across the globe, what happens?”
That’s a good question. I don’t have an answer. I’d say your best bet is to go in with no expectations. It’s very hard to do. Particularly if it involves a romantic relationship.
“Having none or minimum expectations while making one’s best efforts to obtain one’s desires and pursue social/personal virtues IS basics of STOIC philosophy.”
I would agree.
“I think Binoche HAS a classical beauty and told you before that she would be the only woman on the earth I would consider a lesbian experience.”
Really? I don’t think she’s the hottest woman on the planet, but I like her an an actress. I’d pick Angelina Jolie. I think she’d throw you around the room a little bit. 🙂 Well, the old Angelina. “Angelina BC.” Before children. 🙂
“Wow, you were lucky! I would not have slipped into dark LE stages if it happened.”
I’m not clear why. I think him disclosing made it worse.
“You desired a “big sexy” thing, and I did not, due to my painful LE2.”
I’m just not clear what it is you did want. 🙂
“Even if ET reciprocated both in EA, w/o PA, there would be just a dead end waiting — ”
Yes! That’s what happened with mine. Just a dead end … of waiting. And waiting. Again, this was a choice I made. The writing was on the wall. Screaming at me.
“But we need to know WAHT we are walking away from first!”
You didn’t need to understand limerence to know your LO was married (and probably what emotional connection you were wanting from him was not reasonable/tenable given that he was married) and he was giving off many mixed signals and your interactions with him were causing you pain.
” Granny agreed that my grandpa could take a 2nd wife, telling me that she felt no sexual desires after giving a birth to 5 children. It’s “unfair” or “unkind” to expect grandpa to go abstinence. That’s considered true “love” without any jealousy.”
I’ve always wondered how those arrangements worked out. Doesn’t wife #2 eventually want more? Was she already married? Was she younger? What’s in it for her if she isn’t married? Doesn’t she want her own husband eventually? Her own kids? What if the husband falls in love and leaves wife #1 for wife #2?
“I rarely cared that much about my attractiveness to men (to which men? Their tastes are vastly different), ”
That’s because you have/had male attention. If you didn’t, things would be different. In a way, if you always get it, you take it for granted.
“Without self validation, one would not have enough self-confidence to even go out of the door.”
I don’t know if I agree. The need to mate, to pair bond, is pretty powerful. Especially when we are younger. I’d say in most cases it overrides a lack of self-confidence.
“Stoicism is to reduce expectations to 1% while still 99% striving to get where one wants to be. ”
I’m not sure what you mean. I have goals I want to accomplish that don’t have anything to do with people and relationships. People and relationships are a separate thing. I can focus on my goals, but they aren’t going to satiate my need for relationships (friendship, romance, familial).
“I’ve come to a point where I want to date myself”
I wouldn’t date me if I were me! 🙂
“Exactly! “It fades and all of that fades”, possibly as fast as in a month!”
Well, yeah, I was going to say 3. The more time you spend together, the faster it fades.
So … I kind of understand your grandma. After being with someone for decades … you’re kind of done with it.
“… my own chosen books, poetry, philosophical and psychological talks/debates, documentary on writers, artists, architects, musicians, some interesting history.”
I look into those topics as well.
Marcia,
“I have mixed feelings about it. Limerence is as limited as sex is. If you really boil it down to what it is …. “
Now, I agree with you, not the last year. I’ve GRWON. 😀
“hormones and a lot of projection of your own “stuff” onto the LO.”
Mine was more triggered by Dad’s sudden death. I badly needed a person to dump my unspeakably deep grief. LO was (volunteering) supervising me on a project and tried to uplift my sad and sunk sprit. It helped for 4 months; He became a surrogate LO without my conscious knowing.
“But you really don’t know what you have with someone until the barriers are removed and the limerence fades. “
I knew I did not have I wished communication with him in scope and depth (much less than with some 👻 👻 here!) I just wanted to talk/connect with him and get responses; but he preferred chitchat it in person. I did the way more talking and monologuing during the whole LE. In the end, I did know a lot of realistic facts about him, but not his thoughts and emotions. We did not have two-way EA on the level I had wished.
“I was watching this one lady on youtube … I think CSC recommended her. You’re limerent because of the barriers, not despite them.”
I don’t accept this analysis here as my case (it’s LaR’s case, as he admitted), I had easily run away from unavailable LOs prior this one, due to my own oath. I didn’t want PA but an idealized parenthood makeup, and the gentle, nonjudgmental ET did serve that goal to a certain extent. Even with new LE stresses added to my life, I still got rid of a lot of cptsd junk from COO, even before coming to LwL. My previous therapists failed to achieve such a goal.
“In essence … don’t blow up your life over limerence. Whether you have an SO or not.”
I agree with you here that having LE, not Glimmer itself, is “abnormal” even both sides are available. In the future, I don’t want to make anyone a LO, but a 🅱️🅿️ — Beloved Person.
“Were you pretty young?”
25 & 22.
“I don’t know if I could have gotten beyond the flings if I was very young. When I was young, I thought sex was a really big deal.”
I came from a vastly different culture, in which we were “forced” to learn how to endure, tolerate, forgive, and move on. Sex was a HUGE deal, but the betrayal already took place and the both sides still wanted to keep and develop the budding love, what were they supposed to do besides apologies and forgiveness? As human beings, are we allowed to make mistakes and then correct them and be forgiven?
“See … I might have interpreted it as … I can’t give you any intimacy. Including emotional, since you were sharing so much with him.”
Maybe it is in his mind, but I only thought it meant PA. At some point, he said something like, “let’s talk like two ordinary human beings, going through life with its ups and downs…” a very poetic line. I thought that was an encouragement. So, we both continued emails and then moved to texting.
“But you knew you were getting close and sharing a lot of personal stuff. It doesn’t always have to be someone making sexual comments. But if there’s some emotional dependence.”
It was always me who shared and probably depended on his ears much more; I needed it. No one else, not my parents or other friends, had ever listened to me so patiently, attentively and non-judgmentally. I treated him as an unlicensed therapist. But I don’t think he had an emotional dependence on me (he said he shared everything with SO). He also said he’s very private about his mind, he was consistent on this.
“but if I’m limerent, I “feel” so much that I mistake the emotional intensity for an emotional connection. “
I knew I was one-sided attaching myself to him as a mood regulator. Later, I was primarily monologuing, expecting no response from him. Once giving up the expectation and getting “uplifting” simply by monologuing, I felt much better — a tested Stoic practice. He half-jokingly complained once: “you just sent out signals to the universe, without thinking what effect it caused, it’s another person who is receiving on the other end….”.
”It’s still narcissistic. They still sense the limerent’s attention and do nothing to deter it.”
Based on DrL, authentic Sensor went in LE as well, but for Limerent’s affection, not limerents themselves as a person. They could not deter it, either. ET might be in this case, until he met his pet LO/Lim.
“I think mine took a good 2 years to finally come to an end after I went NC (though it had greatly diminished by the time I went NC). And even now I’m still learning about my patterns and my weaknesses, etc.”
Mine took about 10 months after the forced NC and the last disclosure meeting. The ember is gone now. I think only this last LE could be considered as a “true” LE, so there was no pattern for all previous “LEs” for me to figure out. I now know my cptsd was the biggest issue behind many failures in my life, but that has gone away 95% by the end of LE last July.
“But you could have. That was a choice. Not to pull away.”
Immediately after losing Dad and then my severe thyroiditis and lymphoma, I did not have a strong body or mind. After the surgery and after that chick appeared, I could have pulled away, but I did not want to. I thought I was getting something beneficial out of it, despite his flaws and my jealousy pain.
“Within a month or two, I was already questioning what mine was doing. His behavior was off and I knew it — lack of follow through, not asking for my number, disappearing /reappearing.”
You sound like very knowledgeable and experienced in the US style relationship, not me. I was a “toddler” in pop-cultural relationship here. Also, I’ve been off dating app for more than a decade; won’t go back there!
“You mean like give them poetry? I wouldn’t do that, either. That sounds over the top. Unless you’re in an established situation and both know how you feel.”
If without any actions, how would I know how I feel? I did share others’ poetry with my reflections on them, and a very few pieces of my own work, not directly related to him/LE. I told you that this LE woke up and fed my muse even months after ET let. I’m probably a true romantic lunatic here, but at least, it’s exciting.
“I’m trying to get out/socialize more, and if I happen to meet some men in the process, that’s fine. I’m just attending things that interest me. Now, I may change my mind. I might make it more of a priority to meet someone in the future. Hard to say.”
I’m so drawn to my waiting books, films, and daily learning/writing, so have no interests or time to socialize. I only meet new people through work or in some unplanned or unexpected places. I don’t make meeting-people as a project but a byproduct of my engagement with life, one day at a time.
“I don’t think it’s needy at all. To deny it is to put up some kind of wall.”
I’m sorry, sis. I just can’t agree with you on this. I desire and enjoy socializing with “right” men and women and always throw my whole self into it; and I’m ready to meet new men. But it’s not NEEDy; I can live well and have lived well without it, unlike air, water, food, and a decent bed.
“I’d say your best bet is to go in with no expectations. It’s very hard to do. Particularly if it involves a romantic relationship.”
That would indeed be my next purpose to work on: going into a romantic relationship without any expectation and full efforts, and hopefully keep a wise mind and a touching heart in it.
“I’d pick Angelina Jolie. I think she’d throw you around the room a little bit. 🙂 Well, the old Angelina. “Angelina BC.” Before children. 🙂
Even in my next life, I’d never pick up Angelina Jolie, not at any of her age. I like her acting, though. She’s too masculine to me, not sexy. My only possible candidate is Binoche, regardless what role she played in the movies.
“I’m not clear why. I think him disclosing made it worse.”
We seem to be different in this regard. I wanted/desired LO’s heart and soul so much, before anything else.
“I’m just not clear what it is you did want. 🙂”
As I said above, his heart/mind, a surrogate fatherhood, a true friendship…” I was capable of giving a true friendship to ET, but he seemed not to want it. It may be categorized as EA by many others.
“I’ve always wondered how those arrangements worked out.“
If you have lived in one of developing countries, you’d understand. The West is so much more privileged with so many choices for women to live independently, not so in many, many other cultures.
As I told someone else here before, in old COO before 1949, there was an unwritten honorary system. Once a wealthy man took in more wives after the first/official wife, he had to provide them with good living and never throw them out (unless she was caught having PA with another man).
Many wealthy men took wife #2, #3, #4… to show off his wealth. All wives could have many kids as they wished (with more sons, they get better treated) . Almost no husband would leave wife #1, it’s considered disgrace and socially unacceptable. “Keeping/saving face” is most important in that culture throughout its history. If you get a chance, I suggest the movie “Raise the Red Lantern” — with 4 wives and their in-house catfights for the husband’s favor.
My Granny’s Mom was a 2nd wife in a big house, and Granny witnessed and experienced their inferior position and discrimination as she and her younger sister grew up. She swore never to be any man’s 2nd wife. My poor college graduate grandpa married her officially with a beautiful sedan carriage walking through a big ceremony, (not for unofficial wives), although she did not have a pair of bonded feet, as most wealthy girls of that time.
“So … I kind of understand your grandma. After being with someone for decades … you’re kind of done with it.”
Grandma was only 25 (married at 19) after giving 4 births and became non-interested in sex (she told me so). She agreed that Grandpa take a 2nd wife, so he found this young, poor girl (age?) in a brothel and brought the whole family to “interview” her. Granny had no problem and thought she had a good personality, very shy and nice. But four kids did not want girl. Grandpa had a big heart on his kids, so listened to them and never took that girl in the family. I wrote a story about It in college here and won a literal prize with $150. I sent the check to her! She was so giddy like a giggling girl asking me if I could translate that story for her to read. 😃
“That’s because you have/had male attention. If you didn’t, things would be different. In a way, if you always get it, you take it for granted.”
But I so lacked self-confidence that I could get their heart and mind, and true interests in my inside. All the superficial attention just became very annoying. I had some good, down-to-earth gfs.
“I don’t know if I agree. The need to mate, to pair bond, is pretty powerful. Especially when we are younger. I’d say in most cases it overrides a lack of self-confidence.”
Pair-pond or even romantic relationship in COO has been a taboo issue for centuries. So I did not know and was not clear about the NEED to mate, although I could feel it without knowing what it was. To date boys, we were brought to believe, we need good look, intelligence, wits, good grades, amicable characters, feminine temperament, but no one talked or could talk about sexual need/drive. In this regard, probably the whole COO population was repressed, at least on the surface.
“I’m not sure what you mean… but they aren’t going to satiate my need for relationships (friendship, romance, familial).]
That means even in relationships, one makes 99% efforts to make relationships work but keep only 1% hope/expectation that they would work out as one has wished. It means to prepare for/expect the worst outcome, but still try/do one’s best.
“I wouldn’t date me if I were me! 🙂”
I wouldn’t either in the past; but NOW I would date me if I were me! 😊
Snow,
“Now, I agree with you, not the last year. I’ve GRWON. 😀”
I wouldn’t have agreed until recently, either. I thought that limerent feelings were so powerful and so rare, that I must act on them. They must mean something. They don’t. Not usually about that specific LO. They almost always mean something about the limerent.
“Mine was more triggered by Dad’s sudden death. I badly needed a person to dump my unspeakably deep grief. LO was (volunteering) supervising me on a project and tried to uplift my sad and sunk sprit. It helped for 4 months; He became a surrogate LO without my conscious knowing.”
Yes, but that was your “stuff.” For whatever reason, he triggered something in you and you projected what you were going through onto him. (This isn’t a criticism; it’s what most limerence is.) But the feelings can be so strong, we assume they signal some “big love.” It’s usually not the case. I was having some mid-life crisis, and someone came by who I thought offered excitement to distract me. There’s no better way than to distract us from working on ourselves than to become limerent.
“I did the way more talking and monologuing during the whole LE.”
This is what I meant by doing too much. While limerent. I’d guess that most/all limerents do it. They drive the relationship with the LO. They want more from the LO than the LO wants from them.
“I agree with you here that having LE, not Glimmer itself, is “abnormal” even both sides are available. In the future, I don’t want to make anyone a LO, but a 🅱️🅿️ — Beloved Person.”
I agree. “Glimmering,” even while partnered, is probably common. But going off the deep end and plunging into an LE and becoming obsessive for years … I don’t think that’s common. Which is why, almost in every case, even if the LO is reciprocating, they are not feeling as much as the limerent.
“Sex was a HUGE deal, but the betrayal already took place and the both sides still wanted to keep and develop the budding love, what were they supposed to do besides apologies and forgiveness?”
Yes, but it sounds like he had several flings. I maybe could have forgiven one.
““let’s talk like two ordinary human beings, going through life with its ups and downs…” a very poetic line.”
That is! That line I would have remembered. 🙂
“No one else, not my parents or other friends, had ever listened to me so patiently, attentively and non-judgmentally.”
I certainly understand. I don’t think most people are good listeners. And someone who is can be very seductive. I don’t necessarily mean sexually but emotionally.
“Later, I was primarily monologuing, expecting no response from him. Once giving up the expectation and getting “uplifting” simply by monologuing, ”
That wouldn’t have worked for me. I need some kind of response. And one that shows me I’ve been heard. So not just something like “ok.”
““you just sent out signals to the universe, without thinking what effect it caused, it’s another person who is receiving on the other end….”.”
Ah, yes. I think he was confused about what you wanted.
“They could not deter it, either.”
They could have. I don’t agree.
Here’s something from Dr. L’s. “Incompatible Limerent Objects” post:
“One of the peculiarities of limerence is that your rational mind is not absent, it’s just lost some of its power over your behaviour. Most limerents know that they are walking on thin ice when flirting with an incompatible LO, but they just carry on, bewitched by the beauty, and overruling their common sense.
I’ve talked before about how the “executive brain” should be intervening to help with the situation, but is frequently sidelined by the more urgent, instinctive desires of limerence. For me, it felt like I still had access to my rational self, but somehow he was kind of chilling in the background – like he’d retreated to the quiet corners of my mind to enjoy some leisure time, content to give me some latitude to act like a fool.”
I think that sums it up. For limerents. For LOs. We all know we’re skating on thin ice. Deep down. And I can’t believe the sensor doesn’t know it, too.
“After the surgery and after that chick appeared, I could have pulled away, but I did not want to. I thought I was getting something beneficial out of it, despite his flaws and my jealousy pain.”
You were going through a lot. I think one of the reasons it’s so hard to pull away is that, despite the pain, we are getting something out of the LE.
“You sound like very knowledgeable and experienced in the US style relationship, not me.”
Not really. But some guy has approached you, is talking to you regularly (I don’t know if it was every day but I saw him often at work), is heavily flirting, is receiving your reciprocal interest (like LaR said, we limerents probably give ourselves away without realizing it) … and weeks have gone by and nothing is happening. Something was off.
“If without any actions, how would I know how I feel?”
I’m not sure what you mean. You can’t tell how you feel?
“I’m so drawn to my waiting books, films, and daily learning/writing, so have no interests or time to socialize.”
I’m too introverted. I need to get out more.
“I only meet new people through work or in some unplanned or unexpected places. ”
Exactly. And that’s not enough, at least for me. I don’t hang out with my co-workers outside of work. So I otherwise would never meet anyone.
” But it’s not NEEDy; I can live well and have lived well without it, unlike air, water, food, and a decent bed.”
If I told you how long it’s been since I’ve dated someone, you would fall over. But I think it’s not me being “stoic.” It’s me being avoidant.
“Even in my next life, I’d never pick up Angelina Jolie, not at any of her age. I like her acting, though. She’s too masculine to me, not sexy. ”
She’s got some “bad girl” in her. At least she did.
“We seem to be different in this regard. I wanted/desired LO’s heart and soul so much, before anything else.”
Well, I thought I had his, at least a little bit. But what am I supposed to do now that he has these feelings? It does me no good just to know he has feelings and all he wants to do is talk and flirt with me for five minutes a day. It wasn’t enough.
“I was capable of giving a true friendship to ET, but he seemed not to want it. It may be categorized as EA by many others.”
I think it was. I don’t think you can expect that much emotionally from someone who is partnered.
“Many wealthy men took wife #2, #3, #4… to show off his wealth.”
That’s so patriarchal. I don’t agree with it at all, unless the woman is afforded the same privilege and can have outside lovers.
“I suggest the movie “Raise the Red Lantern” — with 4 wives and their in-house catfights for the husband’s favor.”
Exactly. I’m not getting in line. Unless it’s Johnny Depp! 🙂
“Grandma was only 25 (married at 19) after giving 4 births and became non-interested in sex (she told me so). ”
That’s a lot of kids very quickly. But it’s young to lose interest in sex. Maybe she was overwhelmed with raising the children. I thought you meant they’d been together for a long time and then she lost interest.
” I wrote a story about It in college here and won a literal prize with $150. I sent the check to her! She was so giddy like a giggling girl asking me if I could translate that story for her to read. 😃”
Is she still working as a sex worker?
“But I so lacked self-confidence that I could get their heart and mind, and true interests in my inside.”
I did, too. But I don’t think most of them were interested in anything beyond the superficial.
“To date boys, we were brought to believe, we need good look, intelligence, wits, good grades, amicable characters, feminine temperament”
This all sounds good. You need to be more than just pretty.
“That means even in relationships, one makes 99% efforts to make relationships work but keep only 1% hope/expectation that they would work out as one has wished. It means to prepare for/expect the worst outcome, but still try/do one’s best.”
I’m just not going to do that. I mirror the other person’s efforts. I’m probably overly cognizant of that now because I’ve always felt, in most relationships, whether friendship or romance, I’m the one doing more. Pushing the relationship. Driving it. And I will not do it anymore.
Do you two ladies need another coffee and a bar of Hu yet to sustain this depth of conversation?
Just to respond to a couple of ‘name drops’ …
“like LaR said, we limerents probably give ourselves away without realizing it”
Yeah think about the cluster of things that happen. I think it oozes out of limerents’ eyes. It also shows in how we prioritise our time, in the small gestures, in our recall of every word they said, in our nervous and flustered behaviour. Yep, the LOs sense it alright. It’s the huge range of their responses to it – from distancing to egging on – that we hear about here that’s so interesting.
“(Can’t find the bit now, so I will paraphrase – where Snow said I had admitted my reality was that I got limerent because of the barriers)”
Yes, I did admit that. Slight expansion on my point now though. I believe the attraction and feelings for her (glimmer and beyond) would have happened with or without the (my) barriers. Without them it would have either developed or been stubbed out, as I am certaim that the hypothetical single version of LaR would have just confronted it and asked her for a date. She would have then had two options, yes or no. She is a straight talker, so she would have been clear one way or the other. Either would have sent it off in a direction other than limerence. But because I wasn’t free to act, I spiralled into limerence.
I only learned what the concept of limerence was, from this site, about 6 months into my LE. Armed with that knowledge, I can see better what happened to me not only with that LO but a previous one, and I feel better equipped to see a future glimmer and know when I need to turn away.
The one thing that strikes me reading your exchanges is that Snow says she only learned the (Western) concept of an EA through her LE, and even more so, after it through LwL. So it is similar to my example of limerence – Snow, you couldn’t really know what you were experiencing if the concept per se was alien to you at the time. Clearly you do now (retrospectively) and would do in the future, but didn’t then. You didn’t ask for my opinion this time but I think that one realisation explains a lot of the misunderstanding that occurred between you and ET.
LaR,
“Do you two ladies need another coffee and a bar of Hu yet to sustain this depth of conversation?”
Chocolate always delivers. Unlike men. 🙂
“Yeah think about the cluster of things that happen. I think it oozes out of limerents’ eyes. ”
I agree. I’m sure it was obvious.
“as I am certaim that the hypothetical single version of LaR would have just confronted it and asked her for a date. She would have then had two options, yes or no. ”
But would you have? You’ve written you didn’t ask your crushes out. Or is that just when you were young?
“The one thing that strikes me reading your exchanges is that Snow says she only learned the (Western) concept of an EA through her LE, and even more so, after it through LwL. So it is similar to my example of limerence – Snow, you couldn’t really know what you were experiencing if the concept per se was alien to you at the time. Clearly you do now (retrospectively) and would do in the future, but didn’t then. You didn’t ask for my opinion this time but I think that one realisation explains a lot of the misunderstanding that occurred between you and ET.”
I didn’t know what limerence was until I went NC with my most recent LO. I had never heard the term. I still knew something was off — with me, with him, with the situation. With his hot and cold behavior. With how I couldn’t seem to tell him to go “f” himself and move on.
I sensed something was off even way back with my college LO in my 20s. As in: why am I so into this guy? I knew it had something to do my childhood. I knew our interactions weren’t “healthy.” I agree with Dr. L … we all sense we’re skating on thin ice. Even if we can’t put all the pieces together completely and have all the definitions in front of us.
Marcia,
“You’ve written you didn’t ask your crushes out. Or is that just when you were young?”
Well remembered. I was dreadful at dancing around that when younger, but have got past that for the last 15 years or so. With SO and with a few shorter relationships before her, I was much more decisive about it. There is no way that single me would have ignored the strength of feeling I had for LO. There are good reasons why I might have been knocked back, or why it might not have worked, but they’re different questions.
LaR 🚜,
“Do you two ladies need another coffee and a bar of Hu yet to sustain this depth of conversation?”
Please drop in anytime to join two INFP ladies’ daily ☕️ & 😎 🍫 meetup in LwL, I totally welcome another perspective, especially your keen, thorough one, in addition to my ESL tutoring!
“Yep, the LOs sense it alright. It’s the huge range of their responses to it – from distancing to egging on – that we hear about here that’s so interesting.”
As an xLO, I could see and sense so clearly those limerent/men/boys eye “drooling” or verbal “stalking” behaviors, but I ALWASY shot their “LE” down firmly with a cold/hush face. In my wildest imaginations I could not have envision that one day I would be in their position, how embarrassing! 🙈
“Either would have sent it off in a direction other than limerence. But because I wasn’t free to act, I spiralled into limerence.”
That’s what I had repeatedly stressed: because both sides were free to act (aside from LO2’s gf), and I got reciprocated either emotionally or physically within maximum two months; thus I never experienced LE before the latest one. Between LE2 and LE7, I straightforwardly walked out of the Glimmered dynamic with a barrier. I had NO interests to compete with any other woman and to take “their” man away, pointless!
“Snow says she only learned the (Western) concept of an EA through her LE, and even more so, after it through LwL.
More so after coming to LwL on the 6th year of the LE, by then EA, if existed between ET and me in whatever form, was over. Only a forced NC is looming and set to take place whiting 9 months. By then, only DoH was hunting my LE brain. My point is during that 11 months, I did not experience any positive EA anymore. So I argued a lot with Marcia about its validity and effects on existing SO.
“Snow, you couldn’t really know what you were experiencing if the concept per se was alien to you at the time. “
Yes, 🆎 NOT back then. I thought it was a beneficial friendship when I needed it most during my astronomical loss of Dad. I could not even possibly guess what was really going on in ET’s mind. My ESL understood superficial meanings of his words, but not the cultural connotations in between lines.
“You didn’t ask for my opinion this time but I think that one realisation explains a lot of the misunderstanding that occurred between you and ET.”
🙏 for your chivalrously “rescuing” me here again! Please cut in more often as you could see sometimes I struggled to say what I really meant. It’s easy for any Westerners here to forget that a lot of things you have learned since birth or take for granted, especially abstract concepts, WERE and ARE quite alien to me, and I’m still learning everyday here and elsewhere.
I tried to use proper verb past tense in my stories /incidents /thoughts /emotions, indicating they are no longer in the present. But sometimes, I forgot/didn’t use correct verb tense, which then made it as if I am still in that mindset or that event/situation is still going. Grammar is very important in all my posts, misusage of which could cause and have caused a lot confusions, or misinterpretations, or even furies….
🚜 🌱 🌽 : Did you have a nice 3-day break?
LaR,
“There is no way that single me would have ignored the strength of feeling I had for LO.”
But I doubt the feelings would have been as strong had you both been available. I’m not saying you wouldn’t have been attracted or interested, but the barriers ratchet up the feelings. If I really want candy and you tell me I can’t have candy and you block me from that candy … damn, is that candy going to look good. Damn, am I going to want that candy. And if I even get just a small bite … it’s going to taste like the best candy I’ve ever had.
When you think about it … it’s level 10 crazy. Comparing limerent attractions to unavailable people to “normal level” attractions to people who are available. It’s not a fair fight.
Marcia,
That’s an interesting viewpoint that I definitely don’t discount. Truth is, I will never know what I would have actually done in that situation (and I have learned to live with that now) – I have only my best guesses.
❄️,
Yes, I did thank you, and cheers for asking🙂.
I could correct more on grammar if it’s wanted, but it butts up against my not wanting to seem to patronise in a public space or like I’m second guessing what you mean (I might get that wrong or misinterpret). Truth is, as I’ve said before, grammar rarely gets in the way of me understanding what you intend to mean (I don’t think, anyway). Grammar is a different matter from when we might have different constructs about something (we have encountered that on the words ‘friendship’ and ‘forgiveness’ just that spring to mind – where the Western and Eastern constructs seem so different. And the whole way ‘dating’ looks in different places too). It can be fun and enriching trying to figure those bits out.
I may intervene from time to time (not just with you) if I feel two posters are spinning in the loops on a point. Mostly I think you two are just fine as a debating pair, to my eye – it all seems good-spirited. Still it was nice to swing by for a ☕️ and a square of 🍫!
LaR
“Mostly I think you two are just fine as a debating pair, to my eye – it all seems good-spirited”
It is. In a debate, you won’t agree on everything.
And sometimes you’ll agree to disagree. That’s fine.
Marcia,
“I thought… limerent feelings were so powerful and so rare, that I must act on them. They must mean something.”
In the most part of my last LE, I did not have the name for my feelings or thought they particularly “meant something”. My feelings (the neural system reactions) definitely felt stronger than anything I had ever felt previously, and my nerves never truly relaxed. But due to the barrier, I mentally treated it as a deep friendship, while clearly knowing ET was not reciprocating my level of emotions or my sense/definition of friendship.
“They don’t. Not usually about that specific LO. They almost always mean something about the limerent.”
Yes. Agreed! I sensed this in the middle of the LE, ET was playing a double role — helping reduce the old cptsd (lent his parental ear to my complaints of Mom) while adding new “cptsd” due to his push-n-pull, “abandonment” game. I even told him so.
“Yes, but that was your “stuff.” For whatever reason, he triggered something in you and you projected what you were going through onto him. (This isn’t a criticism; it’s what most limerence is.)
Not sure if those would be my words to describe my case. As I said many times before, that I projected onto him my childhood “phantom” — an idealized parent, a muse, a dreamt bosom friend, a red-cloaked bishop, not anyone in my previous life before meeting him. A professional therapist was working with me when the Glimmer hit and when Dad passed away, but I don’t think she had a clue what LE is. she told me to stay away from ET due to the work ethic.
“ But the feelings can be so strong, we assume they signal some “big love.” It’s usually not the case. “
The word “love” rarely entered my mind until the end of LE, I turned it to be like an unrequited love. I sensed my uncontrollable and OCD feelings had fell off the scale of attraction/distraction, which occupied most of my waking hours for 7 years or more.
“I was having some mid-life crisis, and someone came by who I thought offered excitement to distract me. There’s no better way than to distract us from working on ourselves than to become limerent.”
That makes a lot sense. As I said before, I was in a depression bout when Glimmer took place and was very happy it yanked me out of that depressive state (and the residual LE5)
“This is what I meant by doing too much. While limerent. I’d guess that most/all limerents do it. They drive the relationship with the LO. They want more from the LO than the LO wants from them.”
I mainly wanted him to listen to whatever I had to ramble (like I did in LwL), not much realistic stuff; I knew he could not respond with the family duties; I so wished to know what was going on in his mind. Once I asked why ET would put up /deal with me and if he was going through some mental stresses, he got very offended and “shut me up” immediately in writing. He needed his mask shinny in all aspects. I wanted to crack it open a bit to peek inside.
“…even if the LO is reciprocating, they are not feeling as much as the limerent.”
Mostly true. If LO had reciprocated enough and consummated with Limerent, then the limerence would be over, like all my “xLEs”. The longer cases of LE always involved some unbreakable barriers.
“Yes, but it sounds like he had several flings. I maybe could have forgiven one.”
He had four flings all took place between the engagement and 1st ceremony, in 8 months. When I suspected one (his old college flame), he confessed 4 together, including a man (SO was often taken as a gay, but was not). So I forgave 4 in one shot.
“That is! That line I would have remembered. 🙂”
ET could write poetically (he taught poetry before) and talk philosophically, but he did not do it often. When he did, I saw/sensed our similar sentimentality, mentality, and spirituality — probably why the familiarity I saw in his eyes, even during our last meeting?
“I certainly understand. I don’t think most people are good listeners. And someone who is can be very seductive. I don’t necessarily mean sexually but emotionally.”
Yes, that’s it. He’s a patient and attentive listener with others as well, which I often saw at work. And he never flattered on my superficial stuff, but complimented moderately/tastefully on specific thoughts or deeds. I can see why both women and men were drawn to him; he liked/desired “to be liked by other people” — by all.
“That wouldn’t have worked for me. I need some kind of response. And one that shows me I’ve been heard. So not just something like “ok.””
It’s enough for me. Actively giving gave me more joy than passively receiving in all my previous relationship (except LE2). In this LE, my spirit got uplifted simply by freely expressing my thoughts, and my muse was enlivened to create, even just some broken purple lines. I think you may need to read “1984” to understand my profound need since little to be listened to without judgment/criticism but unconditionally acceptance/love — my major unmet childhood needs.
“Ah, yes. I think he was confused about what you wanted.”
I thought he was telling me that my monologue had effects on him, his mind or heart, or both. I hoped that my monologue could make me get closer to him. In hindsight, he did seem to be “closer” and initiated that 8-month chase in the 3rd year after my surgery.
“I’ve talked before about how the “executive brain” should be intervening to help with the situation, but is frequently sidelined by the more urgent, instinctive desires of limerence“
Well, I argued before that, based on Jungian theory, the Unconscious is always more powerful than logic brain. Without the help of my many dreams (the Unconscious), I could not be where I’m now. Sometimes, the stronger logical mind pushes, the stronger the Unconscious rebels against/balances the conscious mind.
The Unconscious never sleeps but works 24/7. All our executive decisions, according to Jung and other psychologists, are influenced by the Subconscious even as one is actively processing and making decisions. Only we believe that it’s only our conscious mind working during waking hours.
“For me, it felt like I still had access to my rational self, but somehow he was kind of chilling in the background – like he’d retreated to the quiet corners of my mind to enjoy some leisure time, content to give me some latitude to act like a fool.””
I see. That’s a vivid description. For me, due to my mental and physical weakness and scary unpredictability (before defining the structure/type of my lymphoma), my executive mind could not care less about anything. I thought I could be told by one of 4 opinions to die from 6-12 months alone (during the lockdown). Having Glimmer or LE highs would be my blessing to take to my grave!
“I think that sums it up. For limerents. For LOs. We all know we’re skating on thin ice. Deep down. And I can’t believe the sensor doesn’t know it, too.”
I think that’s why ET was so careful with his written words. He told me in that last meeting that he did not know the term “limerence”, but he had heard of Tennov. Strange! He did not elaborate on what he knew about Tennov’s work. I was still nervous and my mind slow, heavily occupied by the final “grief”.
“You were going through a lot. I think one of the reasons it’s so hard to pull away is that, despite the pain, we are getting something out of the LE.”
Yes — LE highs. But in my case, I indirectly, sideway got other important positive stuff from LE (not ET) as I told you. It’s my determination not to suffer and endure that level of mental pain that brought me into Stoic world, IFY (internal family system), Individuation, enquire of Narcissism, further cptsd insight…. In COO’s tradition, adversity was treated as the best teacher, and one needed to grasp the opportunity to learn and train oneself.
[“If without any actions, how would I know how I feel?”
I’m not sure what you mean. You can’t tell how you feel?]
I mean action of expressing one’s feelings through creative writing, prose or lyrics. Without words, no one could tell how s/he feels, right? In COO, orally expressing one’s emotions was considered very tacky and weird, like striping off your psychological clothes. I had a lot of hard time to describe my feelings in front of a sweet, motherly therapist. She patiently guided me, but I simply did not know what I was feeling in front of her.
I guess that was why I turned to others’ poetry to help me express my vague, complex feelings. Now, I’m better after reading many expressive posts, which are also contained in written words.
“I’m too introverted. I need to get out more.”
I’m also introverted and can easily entertain myself. But I do enjoy socializing with alike minds, but not chitchat types who often made me feel very lonely in a crowd. Books/films are my good mental friends, only they can’t talk back. Again, it’s me monologuing to them — another one-sided relationship.
”If I told you how long it’s been since I’ve dated someone, you would fall over. But I think it’s not me being “stoic.” It’s me being avoidant.”
If I tell you the length of time since my last dating, the whole LwL would fall over 😊 I WAS not avoidant but always anxious attaching since LE1. In what style I am NOW needs to be tested in the next date, if I’m lucky to find one.
“Well, I thought I had his, at least a little bit. But what am I supposed to do now that he has these feelings?”
It would inspire me more in creativity and in my aliveness Now, just talking about ET retrospectively is putting me in better moods in the last few days. That’s just me — tend to remember the good side of a coin, not the other face.
“It does me no good just to know he has feelings and all he wants to do is talk and flirt with me for five minutes a day. It wasn’t enough.”
Isn’t five-minutes a dopamine hit? For many limerents, I think it feels so much better than LC or NC. But the problem is that after we get used to such a feed/hit, we want a higher, then another higher dose.
“I don’t think you can expect that much emotionally from someone who is partnered.”
Yes, I learned that ultimate futility from LE2 and consequently made an oath to myself! Now I know even more from LE7 and LwL.
“That’s so patriarchal. I don’t agree with it at all, unless the woman is afforded the same privilege and can have outside lovers.”
That was COO before the communists took over the country in 1949.
“I’m not getting in line. Unless it’s Johnny Depp! 🙂”
Johnny Depp? Nay, I would not go to him even getting paid. His characters are so often wild… and he’s not my type at all!
“Is she still working as a sex worker?”
I didn’t make myself clear in the last post: I wrote a story about Granny, not the sex worker. No one knew her whereabouts, it took place before 1949. I gave my check to Granny.
“I did, too. But I don’t think most of them were interested in anything beyond the superficial.”
That’s why I was so sick of those superficial flattery, adoration, crushes, or limerence from men of many walks. A lot of young dudes before 40, especially handsome, flamboyant ones, appear shadow/superficial …. They rarely caught my eyes even when I was younger. I am drawn a face showing intelligence, vulnerability, past pains, modesty, introvert demeanor, sensitive/mysterious eyes, high courtesy.
“I’m just not going to do that. I mirror the other person’s efforts.”
I don’t want to mirror anyone, I want to inspire, myself and other side, and then give and take together. If I realize I can’t achieve this goal, I’d walk away. Also 3 minimum big tests for any kind of relationship.
“I’m probably overly cognizant of that now because I’ve always felt, in most relationships, whether friendship or romance, I’m the one doing more. Pushing the relationship. Driving it. And I will not do it anymore.”
Prior to this latest LE, I didn’t do that much in my crushes/“LEs”; but I was inadequate on how a relationship could be built and sustained in organic and healthy ways. If. I knew, I might have saved my marriage….
I enjoy giving more to perceived-right people, but if the other side didn’t match up my efforts or skills/curiosity/flexible mind, my system “tire” would go flat soon or later naturally. That’s what happened with my SO.
It takes two matching, mature hands to play ping-pong and two strong, steady legs to tango.
Snow,
“My feelings (the neural system reactions) definitely felt stronger than anything I had ever felt previously, and my nerves never truly relaxed. But due to the barrier, I mentally treated it as a deep friendship, while clearly knowing ET was not reciprocating my level of emotions or my sense/definition of friendship.”
So this is my point. You sensed, at least on some level, that the friendship was a little off. Really strong feelings. Some anxiety. Not entirely reciprocal. And his push-pull behavior.
Limerence doesn’t give us lobotomies! (It’s a joke.)
” As I said many times before, that I projected onto him my childhood “phantom” — an idealized parent, a muse, a dreamt bosom friend, a red-cloaked bishop, not anyone in my previous life before meeting him.”
Right. That was your “stuff.” Everybody has stuff. This is what your LE meant to you. Or what you needed at the time.
For me, I was dissatisfied with where I was in life and my LO came along with intensity and excitement.
“A professional therapist was working with me when the Glimmer hit and when Dad passed away, but I don’t think she had a clue what LE is. ”
Therapists rarely do. And they don’t know how to help with the limerence. With mine, we spent too much time discussing my LO and his behavior. That’s what a limerent wants to do! Talk about their LO! But it’s just increasing the ruminating. What should be done is to discuss WHY the limerent has become limerent and what can be done to prevent it from happening again.
“The word “love” rarely entered my mind until the end of LE, I turned it to be like an unrequited love. ”
I hesitate to use the word love. I don’t think limerence is love. But I definitely thought I was “in love” with him.
“As I said before, I was in a depression bout when Glimmer took place and was very happy it yanked me out of that depressive state”
I understand that. I was as well. Floating along, unsure of what I wanted. And he gave me something to focus on — him!– and a goal. Him! I have since of course learned: NEVER, never make landing a specific person a goal.
“I wanted to crack it open a bit to peek inside.”
I understand that desire as well. I wanted the same with mine. It was like trying to pry open a clam. 🙁 In retrospect, I think there wasn’t much beneath the surface with him. I think he was pretty shallow.
“If LO had reciprocated enough and consummated with Limerent, then the limerence would be over, like all my “xLEs”.”
If you could have gotten in to a relationship. But at least with mine, just knowing he had some kind of reciprocal feelings didn’t end the LE. Not by a long shot. And it sounds like yours did as well. Had some feelings. But that didn’t stop your limerence.
“He had four flings all took place between the engagement and 1st ceremony, in 8 months. When I suspected one (his old college flame), he confessed 4 together, including a man (SO was often taken as a gay, but was not). So I forgave 4 in one shot.”
I couldn’t have forgiven so much cheating in such a short time. And also with a man. I really don’t care if a guy I like is also into guys if it’s going to be short term. But I wouldn’t want a long-term partner to be into guys.
“ET could write poetically (he taught poetry before) and talk philosophically, but he did not do it often.”
I definitely can see why you liked him.
“And he never flattered on my superficial stuff, but complimented moderately/tastefully on specific thoughts or deeds. ”
That would mean something to me as well. Compliment something specific to me. It makes me feel like the person is paying attention.
“Actively giving gave me more joy than passively receiving in all my previous relationship (except LE2). ”
What were you giving him? Attention? A sense of trust that you were sharing your innermost thoughts? You wrote he liked to be liked. It sounds like he gave you a lot. Even if it was passively listening.
“I think you may need to read “1984” to understand my profound need since little to be listened to without judgment/criticism but unconditionally acceptance/love — my major unmet childhood needs.”
This is a good point. I believe limerence bubbles up from unmet needs. That’s what I meant by “stuff.”
“I thought he was telling me that my monologue had effects on him, his mind or heart, or both.”
I agree.
“I see. That’s a vivid description.”
That was part of Dr. L’s post. Not my description but I could relate to it.
“I thought I could be told by one of 4 opinions to die from 6-12 months alone (during the lockdown). Having Glimmer or LE highs would be my blessing to take to my grave!”
I’m sorry you had to go through that. That sounds extraordinarily stressful.
” In COO’s tradition, adversity was treated as the best teacher, and one needed to grasp the opportunity to learn and train oneself.”
On some level, I think this is true. We learn more from pain than happiness.
” Without words, no one could tell how s/he feels, right? ”
No. I knew I was into my LO the second I saw him. I don’t know why. I could feel how I was reacting to him.
“In COO, orally expressing one’s emotions was considered very tacky and weird, like striping off your psychological clothes.”
I think it depends on the feelings. I have trouble expressing romantic feelings. Not anywhere near as much when expressing feelings with friends.
“But I do enjoy socializing with alike minds, but not chitchat types who often made me feel very lonely in a crowd.”
I agree. But sometimes you have to wade through the chitchat to get to the deeper stuff.
“I WAS not avoidant but always anxious attaching since LE1.”
What’s interesting (and I’m sure not uncommon) is that I become anxious during an LE.
“It would inspire me more in creativity and in my aliveness ”
That’s not enough. I had that, regardless. I wanted him. I wanted more.
“Now, just talking about ET retrospectively is putting me in better moods in the last few days. That’s just me — tend to remember the good side of a coin, not the other face.”
That’s good. I can’t seem to remember the good parts of my LE. Only all the time I wasted. And how he led me on.
“Isn’t five-minutes a dopamine hit?”
Yes, but then there was the crushing disappointment that that’s ALL it was. And that’s ALL he wanted from me.
” For many limerents, I think it feels so much better than LC or NC. ”
Most definitely. It took me a very, very long time to go completely NC. Several different attempts at it. And by the time I did, I was utterly annoyed with him.
“Johnny Depp? Nay, I would not go to him even getting paid. His characters are so often wild… and he’s not my type at all!”
Maybe the Johnny Depp of 10 years ago. Not now.
“I gave my check to Granny.”
I will say your family is very open with you about their lives and their history. I think that’s nice. Mine is not. You can know them all your life and not really know who they are.
“I am drawn a face showing intelligence, vulnerability, paat pains, modesty, introvert demeanor, sensitive/mysterious eyes, high courtesy.”
Gotcha. I prefer someone who has what I lack. I understand introverts but I don’t want to date one.
“I don’t want to mirror anyone, I want to inspire, myself and other side, and then give and take together.”
I think you can do a LITTLE bit more to hopefully inspire them to do more. But if they’re not reciprocating or not reciprocating much… there isn’t much you can do.
“If I realize I can’t achieve this goal, I’d walk away. ”
You don’t always have to walk. Depends on the type of relationship and the context. You can just adjust your expectations and how much effort/energy you put into the relationship. I’m speaking more of friendship here.
“I enjoy giving more to perceived-right people, but if the other side didn’t match up my efforts or skills/curiosity/flexible mind, my system “tire” would go flat soon or later naturally. That’s what happened with my SO.”
I’m not sure what you mean. He wasn’t as invested and giving as much to the relationship?
Marcia,
“But you wrote that some of these guys had girlfriends. I’d consider anyone who was seriously involved with someone else unavailable. They don’t have to be married.”
Between LO2 and LO7(ET), as soon as I found out the other side had a gf (some lied to me first), I walked away. LO2 was a COO fellow, so both us had absolutely NO concept of EA in the West. It was a secret PA and he would not leave his gf. So I learned in a hard way what it meant to have PA without emotional connection — feeling be used as a sO and terribly lonely. Thus, I took an oath to myself ever since.
“And if two people get very close, in my opinion, that can be very threatening to a relationship. I’d say more threatening than a PA if a PA is just physical.”
Last year, I agreed with you and still do on this point. And that’s why for the first 4 years of my LE7, I was not eager to pursue a physical intimacy; I subconsciously desired ET’s heart while getting his consoling/comforting for Dad’s passing and consulting for Mom’s attempts to M/E abuse me again.
“Personally, I probably would have interpreted your LO’s question as an invitation for a PA. You were already friends who shared a lot, so there was some kind of emotional connection/EA going on.”
I agree with you on this. In addition to his limerence with my LE affection for him, he did care for me in f2f communications (on paper, he was strictly appropriate until the 2nd phase of this LE.). I could tell from his eyes (some lost inside mine, and I had to break that lock). I was/am highly sensitive with my neural system and my intuition was mostly right during my whole life.
“It sounds like he was willing to follow through. Not just going to toy with you for the attention/validation.”
You’re probably right, he might even want to please me after the years of my “faithful”/addictive limerence. But by the 5th year, he got his own pet LO/Lim (not his wife), and my pride could not take the 2nd side-chick position. Also, I never wanted to start anything that evidently cannot last, it’s FUTILE! (In relationship, I am not a “here and now” person, I stopped long time ago those “one nightie”) Otherwise, I’d have accepted the first coffee invite before 2019, before I had my lymphoma operation).
[“In addition, COO only consider a physical affair as an Affair.”
I don’t happen to agree with that. If it’s a PA with some actual feelings, of course it’s threatening to a relationship.]
I didn’t know there is such a thing called EA until I slipped into LE7, precisely until I found LwL — the 6th year of LE7. After LE2, I was never in a possible EA position, so no one ever told me there was such a concept. If you remember, I argued about EA when I first came into LwL; I simply did not accept it. In my mind: if one never touched LO’s hand, no one could/can claim they had an affair.
“It still exists in COO and you read in “1984”.”
I haven’t read that book. Just “Animal Farm.”
If you want to better understand Russia, China, North Korea and mind/psychology of their severely oppressed and repressed citizens, I suggest you read the iconic book “1984), it’s fairly short. And what these three countries are doing is worse than “1984” and its “Room 101”. They have massive, sophisticated internet “Big Brother”
“Even if you’re living outside of the country? Do you ever plan on moving back?”
Yes, they are tracing down those loud dissidents’ internet iP in Canada, US, UK and phone them to threaten the safety of their family members still in COO. I’d never move back.
“However, I don’t think half the population has experienced the latter part or the darker side, when limerence gets “stuck” and the limerent obsesses over it for years.”
I agree. These dark cases might only consists 5-6% of active limerents population.
“I am the total opposite. The practical stuff … I zone out. I mentally check out as much as possible. I have little interest in it. If I had money, I’d pay someone to do those things for me.”
As said before, I grew up in an environment where we children had to do so many unwanted things and get so little (less than 5%) of what we wished. We were trained and learned how to LIKE what we HAD TO do (not just do what we liked/wanted/desired). In order to achieve such a goal, one needed to imagine and invent/give meanings to doing routine, practical, or dutiful stuff. Our imagination probably developed more than Western kids, I suspect.
“But when it comes to romance and even friendship … I’m pretty emotional and high strung.”
Up to this day, I think the degree/capability of my romancing romance or friendship is still lower than most of you here (based on my reading/scanning). My old training habitually prevented me from total-freely expressing or acting on my emotions . It felt/feels very uncomfortable, as if striping off one’s clothes. We Asians are, stereotypically speaking, much more reserved or highly subtle in romance among ourselves or racially mixing with others.
“I don’t know if I could maintain some kind of infatuated feelings for someone who I didn’t interact with. “
I have unofficially diagnosed OCD mind, so it goes round and round on its own, regardless external factors, until it’s broken somehow by another demanding mental engagement. My mental OCD behavior could look like obsessions with something or someone, but it’s not really. I do dig behind my OCD motives, it’s a part of individuation process.
“I’d have to have some kind of sign they felt the same way. Or it would slowly fade. If they weren’t flirty or complimentary, for example, I think the feelings would at least die way down to low-burning embers.”
I had OCDed for a Crush for a semester (he was my Lit, TA instructor, married with a baby) and he stuck in my head for 4 years AFTER he got his Ph.D and immediately left the town, but it’s on the black burner (I was married, too)
“Uh … because that was her brand. Of course, her appeal was far more than her appearance. HOWEVER … a big part of her appeal was her physicality. And she knew that.”
Yes, in the West and the modern COO, appearance and appeal are commercialized for profits. It was not like this when I grew up.
“That’s what I’m trying to figure out! How do you relate to men when a big part of what you used to relate to them with is gone?”
Does relating to men is our identity, or even just a part of identity? Do men identity themselves on how they are related to women, or just as a part of it? Or do we develop as ourselves while organically relating to (not chasing or desiring to be desired) others: men, women, children, and elderly? Is relating a “side effect” or a pursuit? I don’t know clear answers especially in highly commercialized culture; just asking.
“I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to be attractive. Or wanting to attract men. It’s by no means all of who a woman is. Not by a long shot.”
Wanting/desiring itself is natural due to our hormones/DNA. But how much efforts and energy we put into it makes our life quality different; makes degrees of our joys and pains different. It’s matter of psychology and one’s focus on life, imp.
“But it’s part of her identity. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Paulina still wanting to be seen as attractive. “
No, nothing is wrong with Paulina or any other woman/man, but how much within or beyond natural time phases? Most people can’t look like 25 when they are 45. Paulina should accept the nature’s law with a peace of mind, even if she wants to find a partner.
“And she even said herself, “Now wait a minute. I’m more interesting now.” She’s more interesting now that she’s older but because she’s older, she’s invisible! Talk about irony. And I’m sure she is more interesting. She has decades of a life of learning and growing and experiences. She said, “
That’s the tragedy here: She should be viewed and treated as interesting even before 45, not afterward when her physical beauty was fading naturally. When she was younger, all people saw was her face, not her inside (happened to me exactly), that’s “unhealthy” mentality, in my eyes. I know little about her, did she, before 45, have easier time making good friends with men and women? Had successful relationships?
“There’s the beauty of youth and the beauty of maturity. We need to reframe our thinking.” I agree with her. But it’s not happening in the U.S.”
Beauty of youth, of appearance and of maturity should be viewed and treated as a unity whether one is 25, 45, or 65 (Sheron Stone). But it’s definitely not happening in the U.S. , better in Europe — how they are treating their aged and mature but still beautiful actresses. I always love Dame Maggie Smith and Judy Dench no matter how many wrinkles on their face.
“I’d take desired over respected.”
I don’t care about either that much nowadays. If they are given, I’d gratefully take and appreciate them; otherwise, I’m not actively pursuing them, especially the latter. I still care more whether I desire men first. In my past, my desire for them was always more important than theirs for me, I don’t know why. Maybe I was too narcissistic.
In COO, most women have finished their time of “being desired” by their marriage, usually under 25 or at most 30. Beyond that, who cares about “being desired”? Most women are not getting divorced even if they know their husband are cheating on them. They know they can’t find another, so as long as material comfort and security is provided, they shot down one eye or both eyes.
“Because she was single. She wanted to attract a partner. What’s wrong with that? “
I had no idea that she was single. But strong desires without getting them could bring one pains, do you agree? Is it wrong to temp/dial down our “high orders”?
“Although I’d think, even if she had a partner, she’d still find it gratifying to attract some male attention.
I would assume then she’d feel flattered, but might not desire the male attraction as much, at least not actively in her mind all the time.
“Isn’t that what all this middle-aged limerence is partly about? Wanting to be still be seen as desirable?”
Perhaps in this culture, but it was not the cause in my case…
“Everyone has their peek, glamorous time and will all age and decline/die, it’s the Nature. Why is it so hard to peacefully accept the nature?”
“I think this is a dated attitude. Why can’t you still be vital and sexy as you age?”
Of course, one can be very vital and sexy as one age in today’s healthier lifestyle; however, it should be for one’s OWN sake, not for desiring others’ opinions. You see, once we want/desire others positive attention and fend off their negative opinions, we are putting ourselves in their “merciful” LENS; we would lose our sense of self “control” because viewers’ LENS is neither stable nor reliable, they change with time, their personality, and their maturity.
This is the core essence of Stoicism — what is within and without our “control”. If we adjust our life goals based on uncontrollable, we’d never find or produce our dreamed, lasting happiness or at least mental peace.
[” In France, Italy, and here in parks and side walks, some bold men stopped me, wanting to get to know me… 😮”
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Provided how it’s done. ]
There is nothing wrong with it, I personally dislike(d) public attention; you never experienced that kind of discomfort – being stared/examined from head to toe, whispered/gossiped, hostilely/jealously looked/despised? Pursuing a stranger on a street is beyond my acceptance.
”Was he trying to make a pass or pass the test? I wouldn’t take it too seriously if it was the former.”
I did not think it was the former the most of time (except his drooling eyes and mouth), until he wanted so badly to pass the course (he really has no ability to pass it) in order to continue for another semester with me to fulfill the academic requirement. I could not give undeserved grades; and I wanted to get rid of his puppy eyes. Then he tried the disguising stuff on zoom unexpectedly … I did not turn on camera for the makeup oral, so I couldn’t officially report to my supervisor. Another 21 yrs old did the similar thing back in 2018 in my last job (also could not report without any recorded evidence).
“Didn’t he notice?”
I didn’t know; I was in and out of dozing off. I felt deeply pity for him, but could not just jump up and leave, which would be too hurtful.
“Ah, yes. That I can understand. It’s also true of attraction. If you AREN’T attracted, you can relax. Be yourself. And then those are the guys you will attract! Because you are relaxed and yourself!”
So why cannot Paulina like that? It proves my point: if we can relax our desire but just be ourselves, we can attract guys, because our anxiety or nervous/desperate vibe were absent. We just enjoy their physical or emotional intimacy. With my lovers, I’d say Level 3 or 4 glimmer was present; they were good/decent looking as well.
French lover was long-distance and I could not relocate there as he wished. Russian lover was so boring as a person, so I passed him to “train” my Russian gf who painfully fell in LE with her gay roommate. Both of them asked me if it was okay; of course it was absolutely okay! I had ZERO jealousy when an emotional connection was absent. I was not even jealous for LE2’s gf, just wished they would break up, so he could be my bf openly. I only knew what jealousy meant during the latest LE7; only until that took place, I recognized and reluctantly acknowledged internally that I had a huge romantic infatuation for ET (still before coming to LwL.)
“They certainly were very adult and mature about it.”
Later I thought so, too. The two women are still in the holiday greeting list with each other.
”That’s ironic. Seeing as how you wrote how flirtatious she was.”
Mom is totally psychology infant and a hypocrite . When she complained about Dad’s “flirtatious women”, I also thought of confronting her with her “landmark histories” so as to shut up her mouth. But I controlled myself, “saving last bits of face” for her. Having PA is a huge immorality deal in their time.
“I mean, some people flirt with everyone. But I can’t imagine not feeling uncomfortable if my parent was flirting with my date/boyfriend.”
I guess I’ve witnessed a lot in COO, and could face any absurdity. The first bf flirted back with Mom. LO6 felt very uncomfortable and told me so. It’s so bizarre, but not to Mom; she lived in her own Narc world.
“It sounds like she needs to be the center of attention.”
With her level of insecurity, she has wanted validation from everyone coming into her sphere, regardless their age, gender, personal or cultural background. It’s beyond your imagination.
”I see what you are saying. Being attractive is a small part of life, but when you no longer have it, you really notice it.”
I do notice it, but it does not bother me much. I don’t want to be with anyone who does not want to be with me, men or women; and I’m quite content (not 100%, of course) with my own interests and hobbies, and enjoy a few friendships and acquaintances, including you 👻 👻 👻 here.
“Co-dependent relationship?”
Very much so! I talked about this before. Dad loved his “leading” role, and Mom “little girl” role. They both wanted to dominate me, mostly in mind and spirit, but I was very feisty and rebelled — doing opposite whatever they wished or demanded, at least behind their back in COO.
But Mom passive-aggressively influenced Dad, so he shot his eyes when she mentally and emotionally abused me. She slapped my face mostly not in front of him, until I was 15 and decisively slapped hers back. No regret up to this day!
[“because LE affection fades once they are reciprocated, but love of 7 types combined has a chance to survive and last.”
I agree. I don’t know why it’s taken me so long to figure that out.]
I didn’t know it, either. But LwL made me to analyze my past relationships and come to this conclusion. Your views have a great impact on the spinning of my head since I’ve been here.
I meant to say this a while ago: last year on April 2, I worked on the election Poll site for 17 hours and a bad physical pain was present all day. I should have waited to respond your post that night but was too impatience and irritated. So I blew my head on some of your points that night. I apologize for my post in that evening.
Me of a year later is in a psychologically progressed/advancing place… I’m substantially gratified.
Snow,
“LO2 was a COO fellow, so both us had absolutely NO concept of EA in the West. It was a secret PA and he would not leave his gf. So I learned in a hard way what it meant to have PA without emotional connection — feeling be used as a sO and terribly lonely. Thus, I took an oath to myself ever since.”
Didn’t you become attached to him?
“And that’s why for the first 4 years of my LE7, I was not eager to pursue a physical intimacy; I subconsciously desired ET’s heart ”
This was probably confusing for him. (I’m not excusing his behavior, btw.) I can see why he made the affair comment.
“In addition to his limerence with my LE affection for him”
I’m not sure what you mean. He was hooked on your attention?
“he did care for me in f2f communications (on paper, he was strictly appropriate until the 2nd phase of this LE.). ”
I do think he cared about you as a friend. Largely from the way he handled your disclosure at the end when you explained to him what limerence was. However, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t down for a PA and wouldn’t have ridden that ride as long as he wanted to, perhaps regardless of how it was affecting you.
“But by the 5th year, he got his own pet LO/Lim (not his wife), and my pride could not take the 2nd side-chick position.”
Yeah, that would have hurt my pride and hurt me in general. But … can you blame him? He wanted to have a physical relationship, and it didn’t seem that you were ok with that. (I’m taking the morality of him being married off the table for a second.)
“Also, I never wanted to start anything that evidently cannot last, it’s FUTILE!”
I didn’t, either. But I also didn’t see my LO and me in some kind of long-term thing. I couldn’t picture us reading the paper together on a Sunday morning. I didn’t want to last a night, but I couldn’t see it being permanent.
“If you want to better understand Russia, China, North Korea”
Ok. I was thinking Russia and China. I had forgotten about North Korea. Makes sense.
“I’d never move back.”
Is your mother or other family still there?
“I agree. These dark cases might only consists 5-6% of active limerents population.”
I agree. The dark cases are a small percentage. Or people with repeated LEs.
“In order to achieve such a goal, one needed to imagine and invent/give meanings to doing routine, practical, or dutiful stuff. Our imagination probably developed more than Western kids, I suspect.”
Gotcha. I’m also kind of a pain in the butt. When I’m told what to do, my natural response is to think: Nope! 🙂 Especially at a job. “We have some new procedures ….” Nope. 🙂
“We Asians are, stereotypically speaking, much more reserved or highly subtle in romance among ourselves or racially mixing with others.”
I understand what you mean. I feel a lot (in romance) but I am not good at expressing my feelings. I struggle with it.
“I have unofficially diagnosed OCD mind”
Ha! We are again alike. Me, too. I’m not OCD in habits but in thoughts.
“My mental OCD behavior could look like obsessions with something or someone, but it’s not really. ”
I’m not sure what you mean. I’ll think about something over and over.
” he stuck in my head for 4 years AFTER he got his Ph.D and immediately left the town, but it’s on the black burner (I was married, too)”
Ah, so it was kind of a crush. Not really an LE.
“Does relating to men is our identity, or even just a part of identity?”
It’s a part of it. Not all of it.
” Do men identity themselves on how they are related to women, or just as a part of it? ”
I’d guess it’s a part of it. I’d say their success with women is a big part of their identity. That may be a question to pose to the male posters.
“Is relating a “side effect” or a pursuit? I don’t know clear answers especially in highly commercialized culture; just asking.”
I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking.
” Most people can’t look like 25 when they are 45. Paulina should accept the nature’s law with a peace of mind, even if she wants to find a partner.”
She’s not trying to look 25. She actually hasn’t had anything done to her face — no surgery, no fillers. She’s in great shape and obviously takes care of herself, but she’s otherwise all natural, aside from makeup and probably hair dye. She’s ok with how she looks. It’s society and men (I’m not saying all, but look at the reaction videos to her Dr. Phil appearance — “It’s over!” with a split screen of how she looks now and how she used to look) who are making it clear she’s no longer hot. I look at her and think she’s still really attractive. But I’m a woman. I’m not her target audience. 🙂
“That’s the tragedy here: She should be viewed and treated as interesting even before 45, not afterward when her physical beauty was fading naturally.”
Well, yeah, but everyone will be more interesting once they’ve had some life experience.
“I know little about her, did she, before 45, have easier time making good friends with men and women? Had successful relationships?”
She was married for decades. They were estranged before he died suddenly. I have no idea about her friendships.
“better in Europe — how they are treating their aged and mature but still beautiful actresses. I always love Dame Maggie Smith and Judy Dench no matter how many wrinkles on their face.”
Yes, I agree. I was going to say France. Catherine DeNeuve! She looks fantastic. Elegant, sexy, vibrant, still seen as a leading lady. Not stuck playing the sexless, kooky grandma like she would be in the states. Helen Mirren is still pretty vibrant, too. She owns being older. She’s very confident.
“I still care more whether I desire men first. In my past, my desire for them was always more important than theirs for me, I don’t know why. Maybe I was too narcissistic.”
I was watching a video on this. Do you want to be the adored or the adorer? Most people want to be the adorer. But you have to be careful in that you’re not doing too much adoring. It has to be reciprocal. Like we wrote on other posts — it’s a dance. They do a little, you do a little. I’m not pushing things forward like I used to. Or hanging on forever when it’s obvious there’s no point. In any kind of relationship. I’m really watching what the other person does.
“Beyond that, who cares about “being desired”?”
I think most people still want to believe they’ve “got it” even if they’re married. I’m sure my LO falls into that category. Of course, the question becomes — How much attention/validation is enough?
“They know they can’t find another, so as long as material comfort and security is provided”
That sounds like being trapped.
“I had no idea that she was single. But strong desires without getting them could bring one pains, do you agree? Is it wrong to temp/dial down our “high orders”?”
I think she has a boyfriend now. But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting attention from men. I can’t tell you how much she was focused on it. But it’s something you definitely notice once you’ve lost it.
“I would assume then she’d feel flattered, but might not desire the male attraction as much, at least not actively in her mind all the time.”
Exactly. Unless the guy is a total creeper or he seems mentally off (this happened to me recently; I could tell by talking to him, he wasn’t all there), it’s flattering.
“Perhaps in this culture, but it was not the cause in my case…”
I think it’s big for the married limerents.
“Of course, one can be very vital and sexy as one age in today’s healthier lifestyle; however, it should be for one’s OWN sake, not for desiring others’ opinions. You see, once we want/desire others positive attention and fend off their negative opinions, we are putting ourselves in their “merciful” LENS; we would lose our sense of self “control” because viewers’ LENS is neither stable nor reliable, they change with time, their personality, and their maturity.”
I agree with you intellectually, but I don’t think it’s realistic. We need other people. We need their attention/validation. As I wrote above, it can tip into needing too much. But it’s not realistic to say we don’t need any.
“you never experienced that kind of discomfort – being stared/examined from head to toe, whispered/gossiped, hostilely/jealously looked/despised?”
I’ve experienced all of that, minus maybe being despised.
“Then he tried the disguising stuff on zoom unexpectedly … I did not turn on camera for the makeup oral, so I couldn’t officially report to my supervisor. Another 21 yrs old did the similar thing back in 2018 in my last job (also could not report without any recorded evidence).”
That’s gross. You shouldn’t have to put up with that.
“So why cannot Paulina like that?”
Because you have to attract the man first. He has to like what he sees. But if you’re relaxed and yourself, it increases the attraction because he gets to know you.
” It proves my point: if we can relax our desire but just be ourselves, we can attract guys, because our anxiety or nervous/desperate vibe were absent.”
Hard to do if you really like someone. Much easier if you don’t give a s**t! 🙂
“We just enjoy their physical or emotional intimacy. With my lovers, I’d say Level 3 or 4 glimmer was present; they were good/decent looking as well.”
You’ve never had sex with an LO? 3 or 4 wouldn’t be enough for me. I’ve done it (I’ve done it with no glimmer), but it doesn’t feel like much. You’re not that turned on or excited.
“The first bf flirted back with Mom.”
Did that feel weird?
“But Mom passive-aggressively influenced Dad, so he shot his eyes when she mentally and emotionally abused me. ”
So he knew she was abusive but didn’t step in to protect you?
“I apologize for my post in that evening.”
I appreciate you saying that. I apologize as well.
Marcia,
“Didn’t you become attached to him?”
Not as much as in LE7, but two cares are parallel. I just wished LE2 could spend weekends and holidays with me, but he did with his gf. Then, when I realize it’s becoming detrimental within a year, I cut it cold turkey, which made him on knees. I despised such a begging behavior.
“This was probably confusing for him. (I’m not excusing his behavior, btw.) I can see why he made the affair comment.”
I got your point last year. I had NO PA intention and never thought it was possible because he said in writing two years prior to then that he wanted to keep all intimacy with his family. So I was so puzzled on the spot thinking, “we never even touched fingers, how could it be an affair? — no conception of EA by then, despite I was so emotionally /mentally attached.
“I’m not sure what you mean. He was hooked on your attention?”
Yes, from the first sight he spotted me four months after I glimmered at him (I figured this out much, much later) but I mistaken it for his reciprocating attention for ME instantly. Later based on his own “confessions” and my 👁️ on some adoring women in his orbits, I figured out he’s a Sensor, not a Narc; almost opposite of Narc, because he’s a people pleaser and always “avoided any confrontation” — another colleague of mine/his work-friend’s comment. Also, he’s very amicable, professionally helpful to almost everyone at work.
“I do think he cared about you as a friend. Largely from the way he handled your disclosure at the end when you explained to him what limerence was.”
I guess so, but not sure. I wished he could have told me (“naive” with a different racial/cultural background) more clearly about what he meant when he said this or that (but with SO, he could NOT). I also missed his much earlier (2018-19) f2f, subtle, awkward, serious words, “It seems that I didn’t care about your little gifts/snacks here or there… but they mean a lot to me…” (I thought he was just saying it for a superficial gratitude — I had no idea of EA!)
By the time of the disclosure, I could not care much about what he had thought and felt for me previously. “Grief stricken”, I just wanted to have an un-regrettable or memorable farewell — I wanted him to “clearly” know what happened to in my head — the personal addiction, LE.
“However, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t down for a PA and wouldn’t have ridden that ride as long as he wanted to, perhaps regardless of how it was affecting you.”
Having PA intention on his part was unquestionable, I still have his emails. But I 🆎 did NOT want PA, due to LE2’s “trauma”, got angry in my email about his suggestion and then explain to him the true reason (LE2) in person. Then right away on the spot he told me he would no longer “have much time for me.” (you said last year it’s very cruel of him to say so.) That’s the turning point when the LE began its negative spiraling (June 3, 2021). His pet LO appeared around Dec 21 or Jan 22.
“Yeah, that would have hurt my pride and hurt me in general. But … can you blame him? He wanted to have a physical relationship, and it didn’t seem that you were ok with that. (I’m taking the morality of him being married off the table for a second.)”
Yeah, I have to agree with you on this now. He also told me that he was having relationship “glitches” with his SO, who was seeing her old flame once a week for dinner due to some mental issues that guy was experiencing. Later, he said he had every legitimate reasons to “betray” her due to what she’s been doing (he’s unhappy but couldn’t stop the hen), but he did NOT want to — this was a lie, because he already began seeing the other pet LO/Lim. But I didn’t want to point such a lie onto his face, after he just told me that my first NC made him “feel lost”, which made me feel terrible. I hate hurting anyone’s heart even if necessary.
“I didn’t, either. But I also didn’t see my LO and me in some kind of long-term thing. I couldn’t picture us reading the paper together on a Sunday morning. I didn’t want to last a night, but I couldn’t see it being permanent.”
Oh. This is not the case with me, although I did not think about that scenario — he’d ever leave his SO after 25 years (he clearly said, “I don’t want it to affect my 25 year relationship), plus she’s an enormous hen, like a Melanie in GWW.
There is another huge positive aspect in the LE: it not only brought me out of my old depression, assisted my individuation journey, healed my cptsd, but also woke up my muse for purple prose. The muse didn’t die after ET left the town, but was kept alive by my own phantom…
“Is your mother or other family still there?”
Oh, she’s living three blocks away from me. Remember I told you last year, I had to take care of her translation needs. It’s her sudden drop back into my life that brought me closer to ET. There are only aunts, uncle, and a bunch of cousins still in COO, I’m a single child.
“Gotcha. I’m also kind of a pain in the butt. When I’m told what to do, my natural response is to think: Nope! 🙂 Especially at a job. “We have some new procedures ….” Nope. 🙂”
If you dared in the older COO or current Korea, you could be sent to an exile or a secret labor camp.
“I understand what you mean. I feel a lot (in romance) but I am not good at expressing my feelings. I struggle with it.”
Due to my COO upbringing, I feel ‘tacky” to express my emotions directly and straight forward even in paper. Everything emotional needs to come out indirectly in proses or lyrics. That’s the way many Asian countries go about romance — don’t mix romance with toilet-going!
“I’m not sure what you mean. I’ll think about something over and over.]
I mean that my mind spin about something over and over as if they were so vitally important, but they might not be. It’s a mental habit or a neural wiring stuck, like a broken record spinning.
[“Does relating to men is our identity, or even just a part of identity?”
It’s a part of it. Not all of it.]
I do not agree with this point. Our thoughts and memories are fundamental of our identity — I.
“I’d guess it’s a part of it. I’d say their success with women is a big part of their identity. That may be a question to pose to the male posters.”
I see relationship, one’s SO, wealth, popularity, appearance are all one’s appendage, not one’s fundamental identity. If one loses all above, or even arms, legs, and some body parts, one is still oneself with one’s intact logic thoughts and clear memories.
““Is relating a “side effect” or a pursuit?
I’m not entirely sure what you’re asking.”
Like money that is a tool and should not be a final goal, relationship or relating is also a by-product of one’s overall development, it’s a “tool” which could bring one lasting joys and happiness or pains and miseries. If romance itself becomes a goal, then there will be boredom or heartaches— Schopenhauer. He’s drawn to Buddhism at his time.
”It’s society Schopenhaure men (I’m not saying all, but look at the reaction videos to her Dr. Phil appearance — “It’s over!” with a split screen of how she looks now and how she used to look) who are making it clear she’s no longer hot.”
My previous post did not really aim at Paulina but the culture, the one CamilarGeorge (CG) defines as an “External Validation Seeking Culture”.
“I look at her and think she’s still really attractive. But I’m a woman. I’m not her target audience. 🙂”
I think even with how she appears today, she could certainly find some men who appreciate who she really is inside out, like Audrey Halpern.
“Well, yeah, but everyone will be more interesting once they’ve had some life experience.”
Of course. But some college kids can be really interesting and their ideas fascinating, renovating and challenging. I am lucky often meeting fresh mind. But they might be inexperienced in romance, I don’t really know their romantic life.
“Yes, I agree. I was going to say France. Catherine DeNeuve! She looks fantastic. Elegant, sexy, vibrant, still seen as a leading lady. Not stuck playing the sexless, kooky grandma like she would be in the states. Helen Mirren is still pretty vibrant, too. She owns being older. She’s very confident.”
Precisely! Juliet Binoche, Isabell Herbert, etc. Deneuve is even better than her younger, slim, stiff self. Their roles in movies show their women’s roles in reality.
“I was watching a video on this. Do you want to be the adored or the adorer? Most people want to be the adorer. “
I was so sick of being “adored” one…. I think my glimmering style/oddity has put me in the adorer-first box. But I want the other side to reciprocate in the same intensity/degree and speed. Giving and taking equality, no more or less on either side.
“But you have to be careful in that you’re not doing too much adoring. It has to be reciprocal.”
I knew and rarely had the problem with reciprocation, until this unavailable ET.
“Like we wrote on other posts — it’s a dance. They do a little, you do a little. I’m not pushing things forward like I used to. Or hanging on forever when it’s obvious there’s no point. In any kind of relationship. I’m really watching what the other person does.”
I agree with you on this totally now. But when I was in the authentic LE7, logic could not bring me out. Once one slips into the 3rd phase of LE, one’s willpower won’t work anymore. The neural wiring took over. Otherwise, I suspected I could have walked away within the first 4 years of my LE7.
“I think most people still want to believe they’ve “got it” even if they’re married. I’m sure my LO falls into that category. Of course, the question becomes — How much attention /validation is enough?”
Again, as CG says, it’s the Western culture — perhaps excessive Romanticism, that has brought such a common phenomenon. In traditional COO, where education and wisdom were highly revered and eagerly pursued, the proportion of such a phenomenon was much smaller.
“That sounds like being trapped.”
Many marriages in the other parts of the world would be considered, by the Western romantic eyes, as “trapped”, not by themselves. They enjoy their life beyond many Western imaginations, because it is rare here.
“But I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting attention from men.”
I’m a 95% Stoic, who would say that EVERYTHING would go wrong fo ANYONE who wants /desires attention from anyone else, because it’s something out of one’s control.
“Exactly. Unless the guy is a total creeper or he seems mentally off, it’s flattering.”
I would not pursue such a flattering at all and just smile a little if given willingly or unexpectedly. It would not further validate what I have already validated myself.
[“Perhaps in this culture, but it was not the cause in my case…”
I think it’s big for the married limerents].
I don’t know what the typical psychology of married couples in the West, although I understand well DrL’s video clip yesterday.
“I agree with you intellectually, but I don’t think it’s realistic. “
That’s why not many Stoic exist anymore, maybe in 6 digits. But I heard there is wave of its coming back.
“We need other people. We need their attention/validation. As I wrote above, it can tip into needing too much. But it’s not realistic to say we don’t need any.”
Sorry I can’t agree with some wording here. We need other people to physically survive — farmers have to grow food, transportation have to bring food to stores…. doctors and nurses are nodded…. but we do NOT NEED other people’s attention/validation, except when we were children. Attention/validation seeking as an obtained detrimental desire is the neutered cultural phenomena. Sartre famously said, “other people is hell!”
“I’ve experienced all of that, minus maybe being despised.”
All stranger, usually ugly women, who probably harbored extreme jealousy (based on my professional psychologist LO4.5) expressed it in despising or hatred manner; some even tried to bully/attack me physically in COO.
“That’s gross. You shouldn’t have to put up with that.”
He’s a young father with 5 yrs daughter trying to get a nursing degree while working part-time and full-time attending college. He looked very pathetic… (I kept all copies of his work and reported to supervisor why I had to fail him). I let the incident go, as long as he is out of my sight. He never appeared in my office area this semester.
”Hard to do if you really like someone. Much easier if you don’t give a s**t! 🙂”
I think that’s our recovered limerent’ task/goal to truly “don’t give a s**t!” in our future relationship, but just being ourselves and enjoying what’s “here and now” with LO.
“You’ve never had sex with an LO? 3 or 4 wouldn’t be enough for me. I’ve done it (I’ve done it with no glimmer), but it doesn’t feel like much. You’re not that turned on or excited.”
Of course I did — LO#2 (G6-7), LO#4/SO(G9), LO#4.5(G7-8), LO #5 & 6 (G 5-6?)
“So he knew she was abusive but didn’t step in to protect you”
This is my shrinks’ views, based on Western psychoanalysis /therapy. Mom thought she did right by disciplining me and argued that all COO parents did so. She acknowledged once in 2000 that her tough discipline had installed all sorts of insecurity in me (so she did understand some psychology).
Still, up to this day, she refuses to apologize for anything abusive she had done to me. Dad is gone, so I can’t ask about what he thought back then and why he did not intervene her abusive behaviors, I don’t want to recount them here. It could still lead to aggravation.
If I continue answering your questions about ET, it might rekindle a new amber of LE7 in my pure imaginations.… that won’t do me any good. 🙂
Typo: “It (external attention/validating) would further validate what I have already validated myself”; it’s like an icing on the cake; but we need to bake/have our solid cake first to “hold such an icing”.
I totally agree with DrL that if we ground ourselves deeply in our individual purposeful living, the desire/craving (a lot due to childhood unmet needs) for external validation would reduce sharply nor ever become one’s focused goal. It should and needs to be a byproduct of an active living.
Our older generations in many cultures take a successful relationship as “fatalistic/fated”, at least in part. Beautiful romance is icing of our life-cake, but it so heavily depends on another human soul or our own ever evolving mind/heart, possibly tougher to obtain than fetching the moon.
By the way, besides a bit of Youtube, I rarely follow any social media such as Reddit or instagram (never had twitter), so I knew little about old or new celebrities in entrainment world, until their names popped in LwL and I had to look them up. (E.g. Never saw Joan Crawford’s movies. Many movie, music stars 👩🦰 🏃, 🎩 🍺, 🪣 💦, and you mentioned were completely new to me). I still haven’t looked up Dr. Phil, and can’t stand Dr. Oz.
My interest still heavenly lies with the Western classical literature (and ancient philosophies) — mainly from later 18th to 20th century. They easily fill up my alone time.
I just googled that supermodel—She’s about 60 now and appears to not be using any dye or Botox or anything. I think she looks great! But she’s also trying to say that how a woman looks should not be the measure of her worth.
🦇, totally agree with her view.
Snow,
“Not as much as in LE7”
Because sex is … just sex. Emotional connection is much more powerful … and potentially detrimental to a relationship. That’s why I’m kind of baffled that some partnered/married people say they don’t care if their partner gets close with someone else, as long as there’s no sex involved.
“I got your point last year. I had NO PA intention and never thought it was possible because he said in writing two years prior to then that he wanted to keep all intimacy with his family. ”
I’m confused. He said, two year earlier, that he did not want a PA? He used those exact words. “Keeping all intimacy with his family” is vague. One is not obviously having physical intimacy with family members other than a spouse. I don’t know what that means.
All I know is that when I’ve developed a close friendship with a man, he usually eventually started making sexual comments or suggestions at me. Maybe after the emotional closeness, they assumed physical closeness would follow. Whereas it’s not that way in female friendships. Women get very close and there’s no expectation of sex. If I were to make another close male friend, I’d have “the conversation” with him so we were both on the same page rather than assuming. Maybe that was myopic of me.
“Later based on his own “confessions” and my 👁️ on some adoring women in his orbits, I figured out he’s a Sensor, not a Narc; almost opposite of Narc”
Well, he does have narcissistic tendencies if he has all these women orbiting him. He’s encouraging the attention. A guy with a bunch of women circling … needs a lot of attention. That doesn’t mean he ‘s a terrible person. People have a lot of contradictions, but it’s probably best you avoided getting really involved with him.
““It seems that I didn’t care about your little gifts/snacks here or there… but they mean a lot to me…”:
Sounds like he was trying to draw you in. Or push the envelope. See how you’d respond. He was probably trying to figure you out.
““Grief stricken”, I just wanted to have an un-regrettable or memorable farewell — I wanted him to “clearly” know what happened to in my head — the personal addiction, LE.”
At the time, I thought disclosure sounded like a bad idea. But it sounds like it helped you get closure and close the door on the LE.
“Then right away on the spot he told me he would no longer “have much time for me.” (you said last year it’s very cruel of him to say so.) ”
It’s possible he was putting up some boundaries. You didn’t want what he wanted or he couldn’t figure out what you wanted so maybe he was pulling back. Or that was a last-ditch effort to get you to have a PA. Idk.
“Later, he said he had every legitimate reasons to “betray” her due to what she’s been doing (he’s unhappy but couldn’t stop the hen), but he did NOT want to — this was a lie, because he already began seeing the other pet LO/Lim. But I didn’t want to point such a lie onto his face, after he just told me that my first NC made him “feel lost”, which made me feel terrible. I hate hurting anyone’s heart even if necessary.”
He’s giving you a lot of mixed signals. Which is not unusual for a married. They often don’t know what they want. And this is why it’s best to stay away from partnered people. 🙂
“This is not the case with me, although I did not think about that scenario — he’d ever leave his SO after 25 years ”
I didn’t think my LO would leave his wife, and I would have never asked him to. I just wanted some big, sexy thing.
“Oh, she’s living three blocks away from me. Remember I told you last year, I had to take care of her translation needs.”
I knew you were taking care of her but I couldn’t remember where she was living in relation to you.
“Due to my COO upbringing, I feel ‘tacky” to express my emotions directly”
I was always worried emotional expression would come across as me drooling over someone. And it’s so unattractive.
“I mean that my mind spin about something over and over as if they were so vitally important, but they might not be.”
Definitely. I’m a little better now. If I can get some perspective and realize I’m overreacting or overthinking about something.
“I do not agree with this point. Our thoughts and memories are fundamental of our identity — I.”
You asked me if being attractive to men is part of a woman’s identity. Yes, I think it is. Unless the woman is just not interested in men anymore or that part of her life.
“I see relationship, one’s SO, wealth, popularity, appearance are all one’s appendage, not one’s fundamental identity. If one loses all above, or even arms, legs, and some body parts, one is still oneself with one’s intact logic thoughts and clear memories.”
I don’t agree. We’re social creatures. We need other people. Validation/attention that affirms our sexual appeal is just one thing. We also need love, acceptance, a sense of belonging, a sense of support, a sense of community, being seen and valued, etc. To deny that is to suppress one’s needs. Now, of course, some people need too much. But that’s another conversation.
“If romance itself becomes a goal, then there will be boredom or heartaches— Schopenhauer. He’s drawn to Buddhism at his time.”
I’m not just talking about romance. Could be friendship. Could be familial relationships. People have a need for other people.
“But some college kids can be really interesting and their ideas fascinating, renovating and challenging. I am lucky often meeting fresh mind. ”
True.
“Precisely! Juliet Binoche, Isabell Herbert, etc. Deneuve is even better than her younger, slim, stiff self. Their roles in movies show their women’s roles in reality.”
I agree. Love all three of those ladies, particularly Binoche, who is not classically beautiful but so interesting to watch. She has a unique sexiness. One of the big differences in French films is that sex and nudity are just part of the movie. Part of the story. They’re handled very naturally. The people look normal. Neither is a big deal. In the U.S., the narrative around the film BECOMES the sex and the nudity and the actress will be asked how long she worked out to get in shape for the scenes!
“I knew and rarely had the problem with reciprocation, until this unavailable ET.”
Well, for example, in my last LE, I had reciprocation in terms of feelings. He disclosed. But he wasn’t ever going to DO anything. And I waited around, hoping he’d change his mind. That was a mistake. I wasted years of my life, hung up on someone who was never going to be an important part of my life and who I should have walked away from.
“Once one slips into the 3rd phase of LE, one’s willpower won’t work anymore. The neural wiring took over. ”
Yeah, I’m sorry. I don’t agree. We always have free will. We always sense, in the back of our minds, the LE has put us in a very bad place. We don’t walk away because we don’t want to.
Not that walking away isn’t extremely difficult. It is.
“Many marriages in the other parts of the world would be considered, by the Western romantic eyes, as “trapped”, not by themselves. They enjoy their life beyond many Western imaginations, because it is rare here.”
I don’t think a lack of romance means someone is trapped. But you mentioned the spouse is cheating … and the person can’t leave because of finances. That’s being trapped. If you can’t leave and you want to, that’s being trapped.
“I’m a 95% Stoic, who would say that EVERYTHING would go wrong fo ANYONE who wants /desires attention from anyone else, because it’s something out of one’s control.”
I think that’s a suppression of needs.
“I would not pursue such a flattering at all and just smile a little if given willingly or unexpectedly. ”
I’m not really pursuing it. But if someone flirts with me or gives me a compliment … I ain’t going to stop him. 🙂
“It would not further validate what I have already validated myself.”
I don’t think it’s possible to validate your attractiveness to men on your own.
“Sartre famously said, “other people is hell!””
That’s true. Probably because our expectations are too high.
“I let the incident go, as long as he is out of my sight. He never appeared in my office area this semester.”
That’s good.
“I think that’s our recovered limerent’ task/goal to truly “don’t give a s**t!” in our future relationship, but just being ourselves and enjoying what’s “here and now” with LO.”
I mean, sure. But it’s awfully hard to have no expectations, particularly if one is limerent. However, it’s best not to pedalstalize someone and be yourself around them. Hard to do if one is very invested. Because you want their attention and … well, validation.
“Of course I did — LO#2 (G6-7), LO#4/SO(G9), LO#4.5(G7-8), LO #5 & 6 (G 5-6?)”
Well, yeah, nothing quite beats sex with an LO, particularly if you like what they do. If you’re sexually compatible. It’s just hot. Of course, it fades. All of that fades!
“Still, up to this day, she refuses to apologize for anything abusive she had done to me.”
She doesn’t have the ability to do it. To really look at herself.
“If I continue answering your questions about ET, it might rekindle a new amber of LE7 in my pure imaginations.… that won’t do me any good. 🙂”
Ok. I don’t want to rekindle the LE!
““It (external attention/validating) would further validate what I have already validated myself”; it’s like an icing on the cake; but we need to bake/have our solid cake first to “hold such an icing”.”
I agree with you. Intellectually. Sure. But some things we can’t validate on our own.
“I totally agree with DrL that if we ground ourselves deeply in our individual purposeful living, the desire/craving (a lot due to childhood unmet needs) for external validation would reduce sharply nor ever become one’s focused goal. It should and needs to be a byproduct of an active living.”
I agree with you. And if an LO appears who is another bad LO or bad situation, if one is purposefully living, it is much easier to stay away and not go off into the ditch of another LE. One is focused on one’s goals.
“By the way, besides a bit of Youtube, I rarely follow any social media such as Reddit or instagram (never had twitter), so I knew little about old or new celebrities in entrainment world, until their names popped in LwL and I had to look them up. (E.g. Never saw Joan Crawford’s movies. Many movie, music stars 👩🦰 🏃, 🎩 🍺, 🪣 💦, and you mentioned were completely new to me). ”
Me, too. I watch YouTube. Self-help. Documentaries. I don’t do social media but I do pay attention to pop culture.
“I still haven’t looked up Dr. Phil, and can’t stand Dr. Oz.”
I’m not big on either one.
@Marcia
“ Because sex is … just sex.”
Not if you’re religious. A lot of us were raised to see sex as the ultimate betrayal—not just when you’re married, but even before. Purity culture is huge in this country.
I need to have a partially-off-topic rant.
I have been avoiding LO for reasons I have described elsewhere.
However, I did tell him on Mother’s Day that I was apprehensive about an upcoming colonoscopy and he said, “Piece of cake.”
I said, you know, not everyone tolerates medical procedures as well as you do.
So I went for the procedure today. I had difficulty with the preparation drink and could not keep it down. When they tried to do the colonoscopy, they discovered that the preparation drink had not worked well enough, and I have to try again–TOMORROW.
So I am on my second day of clear liquids, and am about to start a different preparation drink, this time with added anti-nausea medication. I am angry and disgusted. And dying for some real food.
I just want to make the point that giving people chirpy upbeat encouragement is not necessarily the best course of action. I would have preferred that LO had said, “I hope it goes well,” which is a more realistic sentiment, or “I am praying for the best possible outcome,” which is something I like to say to people, when I am not sure what all of the different eventualities are.
I realize it’s just a knee-jerk reaction to say something stupid like “piece of cake,” but it bothers me and is just another reason why LO sucks.
ND,
I hope the test goes better for you today and when it’s over you can get some solid food.
What your LO said sounds a bit dismissive. A little flippant.
To Marcia:
Thank you for the good wishes and I am just about to start my second prep drink. Procedure in about six hours.
I will report back when I feel able.
Dear Norma
Every best wish. I am thinking of you.
Justme x
To JMMO:
Well, I didn’t throw up this time, so that’s a step up. Going to the hospital in about two hours.
Thank you for thinking of me.
Dear Norma D.
I want to join Marcia in wishing you all the best of luck today and I hope you get a clear result.
You might even be over it now – that first taste of food afterwards is going to be amazing – even if its just a slice of toast.
LO probably doesn’t appreciate toast (esp ‘Milquetoast’, he he)
Bx
I see what you did there.
Best of luck today.
My daughter had a similar experience and it was horrible for her and she had to come back. The procedure is really hard for some people. Hopefully, the new prep drug will work better.
On my first one, I got a Fair in the prep box. I wanted to smack the doctor. I would think it would be Pass/Fail.
If they offer something to take the edge off prior to the procedure, take it. I prefer Valium to Xanax. Valium makes me happier.
To LE:
Oh, do tell! You got GRADED?
I am actually not as nervous today as I was yesterday. I feel less sick, this second prep seems to have worked well, and my anesthesia experience yesterday was good. I was pleasantly surprised to note that I had no after-effects and that I felt fine afterward.
I was furious about the circumstances, but I was well pleased that I was able to get around and function pretty well for the remainder of the day. I had only had one colonoscopy before, and that was as an in-patient in the hospital under very different conditions. So I wasn’t sure what it was going to be like as an out-patient.
I have plans this evening and don’t think I will have to cancel them.
ND,
Yep, I got graded. That disappeared from subsequent procedures. I’m like, “Hey, I drank the stuff you gave me as directed. It’s not my fault if it doesn’t do its job.”
I have made a ritual of going to 5 Guys and having a Little Bacon Cheeseburger and fries after they let me go. Sometimes, I toss in a chocolate shake.
To LE:
You’re brave. You must have a strong constitution. I wouldn’t dream of trying anything so ambitious. You say, a ritual? How often do you do this?
You’re right; you do the prep and if it doesn’t work, it’s not your fault. Also problematic if you can’t keep it down.
ND,
Every 3 to 5 years depending on what he finds.
To Limerent Emeritus:
You won’t believe this, but I got graded, too!!! I had no idea they did such a thing. I got a “B”. I flunked yesterday.
@norma
i too wanted to wish you well, today, and i hope when all is done with, you will take time to get cozy, and slowly restore yourself…it is a lot, and my goodness, to have to deal with this twice in a row. you poor thing!
…i do understand what you mean about people being flippant regarding anything medical. as a cancer survivor, i recoil when anyone i am close to, who knows what happened, says something like ‘don’t worry! it’ll be fine!’ …it’s like…uhhh…you DO know it wasn’t “fine” for me, before, right??? like, maybe instead of saying it’s all good or whatever, “i am here for you, and i understand this is stressful.” would be better.
so, norma, i understand, i think — and i am sure this is very stressful for you. i am thinking of you. the good thing is, it sounds like those caring for you want to do their best, and you are in good hands for your tests.
i hope you’re able to eat soon — and feel stronger, when you do!
xo
To CSC:
I don’t understand why people think giving chirpy lip service is the way to go. Nobody really knows what is going to happen, and a heartfelt expression of concern is more appreciated.
Even in the health industry–I remember the last time I had this procedure, I was an in-patient at the hospital, and two different nurses gave me their take on what to expect. One of them was chirpy, the other one told me in gory detail exactly what happened to her when she tried drinking the prep at work, then driving home. I appreciated the gross, disgusting story very much, because it was a good reminder to stay close to the bathroom. I later asked the “chirpy” nurse why she said what she said, and she admitted that the procedure IS difficult, but she was just trying to be encouraging. She didn’t understand that she was not being helpful.
Nd,
Let us know how you’re doing.
I think some people might like chirpy, but I find it inauthentic. There is such a thing a toxic positivity, in which someone is so upbeat, they refuse to acknowledge the basic truth of a situation. You feel like you’re being dismissed, like the person just doesn’t want you to “go there” with what you’re really going through. They don’t want the burden of it ?
I think with your LO … you keep going to a well that you know is dry. That’s not a criticism. All limerents do it; I did it. You keep hoping things will be different with an LO, that you’ll get a different response. But yours sounds a bit limited in his ability to be empathetic and supportive.
Hi @norma (and @marcia)
yeah, i totally agree. i have so much respect for providers who can deliver the relevant details, professionally, with care…actually, it helps me trust them, and to be honest with them, myself (not worried about if i seem overdramatic, like a hypochondriac etc….and all in all, makes my care much easier for us both!)
sometimes, a chirpy response just seems clueless…but there are times when it actually seems like the person is trying to just brush it off because they don’t have time, or inclination, to care. it’s almost indistinguishable, but, you know it when you feel it. when someone actually doesn’t care, you *feel* it…even if they don’t say it….
hm. maybe it’s more of a smell… 🫤
To Marcia:
I am so glad you used the term “toxic positivity.” Bingo! I knew the term, but had forgotten it, and that is exactly what I was trying to say.
I personally can’t stand it. If positivity is warranted, great. But usually it’s in a circumstance where there are a number of possible outcomes. I can’t stand it when people put blinders on and refuse to acknowledge the possibility of potential negative outcomes.
You are so right about LO. An empty well.
On paper, he is a rotten friend. It’s just the limerence that keeps me salivating.
To CSC:
When LO said “piece of cake” I felt like he said that because he didn’t want to think about it, and that was a pleasant, generic response, perhaps one that would end the conversation.
Just like he bought me macarons in Paris, instead of taking the time to choose something more personal to ME. You could give macarons as a hostess gift to someone you’d never met and it would be appropriate. I put it down to laziness/lack of interest.
Like you, I appreciate it so much when someone takes the time to listen to my concerns and doesn’t just whip out a fortune cookie reply.
Leaving for the hospital in 15 minutes–thanks to everyone who took the time to answer me. I really didn’t expect such a large number of responses and it warms my heart.
Norma D,
My feeling is he thinks he is a superior being, but the reality is you are.
Best wishes
CSC,
“yeah, i totally agree. i have so much respect for providers who can deliver the relevant details, professionally, with care…”
ITA.
“sometimes, a chirpy response just seems clueless…but there are times when it actually seems like the person is trying to just brush it off because they don’t have time, or inclination, to care.”
I think it’s that they don’t care. They don’t want to “go there.” They don’t want to discuss it. What kills me is that these same people will turn around and randomly, one day, expect you to have serious conversations with them about their stuff, their concerns. And you think: Are you kidding me?
My other theory is that the topic is too close to home, reminds them of something in themselves, and so they shut things down.
Norma Desmond,
“I personally can’t stand it. If positivity is warranted, great. But usually it’s in a circumstance where there are a number of possible outcomes. I can’t stand it when people put blinders on and refuse to acknowledge the possibility of potential negative outcomes.”
Or they want to give you a million possible solutions (all of which you’ve already thought of) or tell you about someone else who had it worse than you (implying you should be ok or maybe not complain ?).
Did your LO offer to drive you to the appointment? See, if he can’t really offer emotional support, my theory is the next best thing is to offer to be helpful. Offer actual physical support. Some people may prefer the physical more than emotional support. For me, I can always call an Uber if I have to. But I could really use a friend. That’s my preference.
Glad your procedure went well.
I hope things go well with you! My SO has done this twice and I’m scared to even do it the first time. 😛
To Marcia:
My procedure yesterday DID NOT go well because my colon was not cleaned out and I had to re-do the whole horrible procedure.
I just got back today from the actual procedure and had a gnarly polyp removed. I have no idea how serious this is. If it’s pre-cancerous, obviously she will want to keep an eye on it. Waiting for biopsy results.
I was wishing LO would drive me to the procedure, but I was too scared to ask him. It’s very close, less than one mile, so it would not have been an imposition.
ND,
“My procedure yesterday DID NOT go well because my colon was not cleaned out and I had to re-do the whole horrible procedure.”
Yes, I know. I read the messages. 🙂 I assumed you were messaging today because the redo was done.
“Waiting for biopsy results.”
I hope they get them to you quickly.
“I was wishing LO would drive me to the procedure, but I was too scared to ask him. ”
Sometimes we have to ask for what we need.
Although I’d encourage you to maybe aim that energy at other friends who may be more emotionally/physically available.
To Serial Limerent:
It IS scary, and the preparation is NOT fun. However, it gives you peace of mind, which is priceless.
My friend’s son-in-law refused to have it done and is now dying of colon cancer.
This is to Serial Limerent:
My doctor removed a polyp that possibly in time would have become cancerous.
Even though the procedure is awful, it was worth it for me.
Would you be willing to consider trying the in-home test called Colo-Guard? Painless and private. If it comes back negative, you don’t have to have a colonoscopy.
My sister is 79 and has never had a colonoscopy because her Colo-Guard tests come back negative all the time.
I have thought about Colo-Guard. I had other serious health issues going on when I turned 50, so I put things off.
Not sure where to put this but I just got back from the hospital.
I had one polyp, which she removed. Waiting for biopsy results. She said it was large, 10 mm, but according to what I read, up to 1/2 inch is within the normal range.
I’m not that smart so can’t comment further. Would welcome any input from someone who has experience with this.
Thanks to everyone who sent well wishes. It buoyed me considerably.
Dear Norma,
My Dad had polyps removed regularly (he had regular scans due to family history) and he never developed cancer. He died suddenly of other reasons, aged 83.
Polyps arent necessarily bad news (I am hoping the best for you!!).
Early detection if cancerous is also very goog prognosis-wise. I have 2 aunts about your age who had surgery 12/30 years ago and they are completely in remission.
X
To Bewitched:
Thank you for that reply. I was reading that it takes polyps at least ten years to become cancerous, if they are going to do so.
I had a previous colonoscopy nine years ago, and there was no polyp then. So if the math is correct, I don’t think I have anything to worry about.
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond; I really appreciate it.
This is the first time in about 6 weeks that I woke up and didn’t think of her within 2 seconds.
Discipline/ resiliency
Emotional regulation
Patience
Breath exercises (in breath: excitement, out breath: letting go &emptiness)
Emdr while focusing on how humiliated and pathetic I felt around her
These are the 🔑 to me feeling better and quieting my limerent brain.
“This is the first time in about 6 weeks that I woke up and didn’t think of her within 2 seconds.”
Big landmark, LF, well done! Bottle this moment. Keep going with what you’re doing and you should have more wake-ups like that to look forward to.
@LaR
Ty for the words of encouragement!
I wish I could carry around a supply of oxytocin&dopamine though
DennisHopperinBlueVelvet.gif
LF that is amazing!
You’re doing a great job. This is very difficult. It really is. Congratulations on your “first thought” milestone, this morning. 🙂 that’s living proof you do have room in your brain for Other Things. :))
I love your list, too – going to take some of these and use them. Ok, taking ALL of them. I am especially going to focus on the breathing. I think I forget to do that. 🙂
Csc
@CSC TY! My brain is small & full enough as it is without limerence taking up space! I need that tiny bit of real estate.
Qi/chi means both breath and energy. (Or, the non-woo explanation: your vagus nerve will reward you)
I felt like shit for the rest of the day after a great morning. Another reminder to take things one day at a time, and intrusive thoughts will flare up again, but that too will pass.
My rollercoaster recovery continues!
I’ve been struck by real pangs of guilt this morning. Guilt for my Limerence, basically. Questioning myself: is it all MY fault?
Fortunately, my executive brain seems to be strong enough to be able to remind me how xLO behaved, once she knew she had my devotion. So, I’ll mention it today at therapy. And I know that this is normal, and is a good reminder that I’m not laying my Limerence at her door.
So, I suppose it’s a positive. But this limerence and recovery truly sucks.
Jmmo ⛺️
I can’t really relate to limerence and singleness. Not to sound too conceited but this is the first time I’ve felt like this without it going anywhere. All other feelings like this in singleness have been reciprocated or closed down quickly. This feeling whilst married seems to be never ending.
I am 3 weeks NC apart from sharing 1 podcast over a week ago. There was no back and forth discussion then just a reply and that was it.
Yesterday and today I have wanted to text but so far have managed to remind myself why it would be a bad idea. I wrote down a list yesterday. Re reading the death of hope and blogs about cravings. Although there has been no reaching out, I am still worried that life will be really boring without LO. I enjoy our conversations and I still have him on a pedestal. The evidence and accounts of others though is that he perhaps isn’t the nicest character. He has been very flaky with me and I often don’t feel valued. I mean, if he valued me he probably would have reached out in the past 3 weeks? Really working on separating my sense of worth from the (lack of) attention from LO and trying to remember life before I met him.
Please someone tell me that this heaviness does lift! LO isn’t alpha and omega.
I came off social media for a bit which helped with the LO tracking but have gone back on since. Need another cleanse.
Hi Whoop,
I just saw your post. It got a bit lost in everything else today so I guess not many folks saw it.
Sorry to read your struggle. I know it too well. Cyber tracking LO is a terrible habit I do, but have certainly improved on recently, since NC, but yes I admit I did it today once to see if he was online or not.
I do it for comfort , especially when I am stressed and a distraction from difficulties.
He was. I’m quite intuitive on it, which doesn’t help. ( Special connection thinking)
For me, better but not there yet.
I have been seeking alternatives to fill that habit of obsessive behaviours.
So I now follow some ‘positive’ influencers and check their updates instead. It’s not a great habit but it’s better than LO cyber stalking.
I also check my app on my fitness watch very often which is a great help to remind me to move more and eat less !!
Also maybe concentrate on the positive things you have achieved since NC to build on that , and not the set backs.
@Whoomp
I am not going to sugar coat it…I was in that same spot a while back. I had a flaky LO who would contact me intermittently…with just enough to keep me hooked (asking for plans, then cancelling, expressing interest in my state of mind, then dropping off…etc.)
NGL life WILL be boring without LO…for a while. It is going to get really weird, and you might will be lonely for him. You will be bored. You will be sad, and you will probably feel kind of lost, as a person. Try not to worry about it, but just…to accept that it is going to be weird and lonely for a while.
Is there any way you can just…block him for a while so you do NOT worry about whether or not he is reaching out? That is what I did. The reason I did it was not because I was angry. Not to teach a lesson. But because I, myself, needed to not be waiting and wondering. I have not unblocked, and I don’t intend to. Once I did it, I realized just how much that waiting was doing to me.
Is that something you might consider doing? Maybe you’ve done it already?
You do not immediately need to summon self-worth, or any positive feelings. You may be too depleted to do that right now. And that is ok.
All you need to do, your only thing, is to maintain NC. That’s it…and the rest, the emotional re-stabilization, the balance and the better feelings about yourself…they will come in time. They will. But not if you keep going back in communication. If you keep in the cycle…those things can’t take hold.
I hope this doesn’t sound harsh -I am being honest from what I have learned in my own situation…I take limerence very seriously. It’s awful and I understand that, from my own experience.
with care — xo csc
Hi Whoomp
Not sure if this helps or not. It’s meant with the best of intentions. I absolutely agree with my dear friends Imho and csc (my Beating Limerence Partner). NC is the painful, but only way out of this. I’m not sure if you know my story – but my X-LO and I work at the same place. I have gone fully NC. I have ensured that the only way she can contact me is through work communications.
I feel really sad reading your accounts, mainly because I feel what you’re going through.
Dear Whoomp, please – for your peace of mind, go NC and stay that way. It’s not easy. Only yesterday I found myself going into my Whattsapp blocked list and looking at her picture (sorry BLP!). You will have setbacks, and that is absolutely fine. The vital thing is the intent: it will get easier so long as you don’t have the avenues to check in with him, and the calm of mind knowing that a random call or text/WA message can’t get through – I promise you it’s comforting.
I and we are here to get you through this.
With my best wishes and total support
JMMO xx
Hey JMMO,
Just wanted to say that you have nothing to feel guilty for. I think you’re a guy who is sensitive and really doesn’t want to make others feel badly – maybe it leads to unnecessary guilty feelings sometimes, because you really take the time to consider your own behaviour. Because I tend to ruminate on this myself and am a bit of a people-pleaser, at times, I always remind myself when feeling guilty about not giving enough, that is sort of egotistical to think that I can affect others that much? It helps me quell my (usually unfounded) guiltiness at not giving enough.
Also, sometimes when I have been having bad thoughts about someone (all in my own head), I get a feeling of guilt afterwards, which I can probably rationalise as reverse-swing on the chemical pendulum of feelings in my brain. Its just a reaction to what I was thinking and feeling before. I know that you had a ‘pah!’ reaction to seeing LO yesterday and perhaps today’s guilty tinge is simply a reaction to that- all because you are a nice person who doesn’t want to be unfair. I don’t think that you are capable of being unfair and I think you should believe in yourself.
Good luck today and I hope you have a wonderful one.
😇
Dear Bewitched.
Thank you. I’ve read your response 3 times, you have summed me up perfectly (although I’m sure I can behave unfairly at times!). I am by nature very (over) sensitive and a real people pleaser. Seems we are quite similar.
You have summed it up perfectly, like you know me. It’s really comforted me. You have it absolutely right about the ‘pah’ moment. I suppose this reaction was always going to happen.
“ I always remind myself when feeling guilty about not giving enough, that is sort of egotistical to think that I can affect others that much? It helps me quell my (usually unfounded) guiltiness at not giving enough.” That is brilliant. Absolutely. Apart from knowing that she’s too narc in her tendencies to care much anyway – yes, do I really have that kind of power? Of course not. I’d never thought of it in that way before.
Thank you, as ever, for your insightful support. It’s actually made me feel a bit emotional – something else that’s happened since the sighting.
Really appreciate you Bewitched. I’m so glad we’re in each other’s corner ☺️
With thanks and care
Jmmo x
🐝 🧙♀️,
“I always remind myself when feeling guilty about not giving enough, that is sort of egotistical to think that I can affect others that much? It helps me quell my (usually unfounded) guiltiness at not giving enough.“
Your wise words will become a reminder when I feel guilty/sad about some situation, in which I thought I could help but did not.
In psychological matters, it’s an 🆎 truth: One is one’s ultimate saver! An external God can’t save one; but only one’s internal God can…
Hi jmmo,
I’m sorry you’re suffering today. I was kind of wondering if you would move into a different phase of your processing, or whether you’d be an anomaly— stopping at disdain then going on to detachment.
It’s interesting that you’ve moved to see a kind of new facet of this. I’m sorry you have…it is hard to feel that guilt. It’s disorienting and confusing. I felt the same, and still do, now. In a way, I feel like, looking at oneself and seeing “I” am the only one that can begin, and end, things, is one of the biggest lessons there is…but it’s very hard to learn, it takes a while.
I think it’s very healthy, even though it doesn’t feel that way. To be honest, I don’t know how I would have felt if you just stopped at hating that woman. I would feel…I guess, like you hadn’t been able to complete an emotionally mature cycle. I would feel like…if you didn’t hit this stage, you’d be very in danger of this happening again in your life.
That is me, speaking from my life. I am not trying to judge you or say you are wrong, right, or anything. I’m speaking based on the knowledge I have from my own situation…and you know, I’ve given it a lot of thought, just like everyone here has, about their LE’s.
I do think it’s positive. It’s positive in the way doing a difficult exercise is positive. It’s going to make you so much stronger, jmmo, to go through this. Just as it will make me stronger… but in the meantime, it’s going to be difficult….very.
I hope therapy today is anchoring and productive.
Hugs from your blp,
csc
Hi csc
I have literally just finished replying to your comment on the other thread, when I saw you had replied here. Thank you.
As ever you are quite correct. The guilt in the early stages was replaced by the disdain/hate. Whilst the encounter the other day reaffirmed my negative emotions to her, there is something grounding about how I felt this morning. It also has reassured me that I am fully aware that this whole thing started with me. But then as you and Bewitched have so kindly put it, I am a victim of my intense need to please people, not hate them.
The dislike will remain. She hurt and used me and I will never be able to let that go – nor would I want to as it is a protection. But my suffering today does as you say serve to help close the book in this experience in a more rounded way and learn from it. I never want another LE. They’re too exhausting and painful – especially this one. Not that it’s over, not by a long way.
I know you’re not judging me , sweet BLP, I never read it like that xx
I hope you are ok. I’ll report in on the therapy
JMMO xx
Hi Jmmo,
Just to add a thought:
You are doing what is the best thing in the circumstances. Its not easy, it’s not perfect but the other options that you could have taken won’t work – you established that and ruled them out, with good reasons.
Assuming that your SO is your priority may help ease the guilt you feel towards LO sometimes, knowing you are doing the right thing.
I also do not like potentially hurting others feelings or thinking negatively about them.
It’s natural to feel some guilt if you are a nice person, and you seem to be a good ‘un.
I’m sure many others in your same circumstances just wouldn’t give a $#@} !
( Initially I wrote, so many men wouldn’t give a $#@} ! But then I thought better of it. ha ha !)
Hi Imho
Awww thank you so much. I really appreciate you saying I’m a good ‘un. I try.
Yes I can legitimately tell myself that I tried everything. In the end I had to take drastic action – I had no choice. My SO is my priority and I will take your advice, and make that a guiding principle. Should give me an extra motivation.
Thank you so much. I hope that you’re doing ok x
Jmmo
PS: wise move in the re-wording 😜😂
“I never want another LE. They’re too exhausting and painful”
And now we’re really cooking on gas!
🚜
It’s hard work this emoji lark. I almost forgot I now own the ⛺️ thanks to ❄️!
Yeah. Too many in one lifetime. I’m done with it. This one has been particularly awful. I have to sort myself out.
Hope you’re ok and preparing the fields for #LimerenceCamp25!
Cheers mate
Jmmo
⛺️,
Yep – if you want to party with ❄️🐦🔥🦜🏵🌱🍅🍑🐞 (and she does throw a good party, I’ve found), you simply gotta own a few emojis!
We can see about getting a tatooist down to #limcamp25 to make the ⛺️ official and permanent.
Is it wrong that I feel like I actually want to attend this event with you folks?!
🚜
Better not be wrong. I was packing my bags a fortnight ago!!
I draw the line at a tattoo though..
⛺️
🎩 ⛺️ & 🚜 🌱 🌽,
At least I’ve been mostly constantly keeping up with my patented emojis, while some inconstant, confusing/confused mind kept throwing their unique symbols away… 😕
Wow, 3 & 5 day weekend break — 🎊 🕰️! 🪩 🕺🏿 💃 🪩 🎉 🎈🧨!
I started my 3 month total free summer vacation… I dare you to set up a realistic 🏕️ 🏕️ ⛺️ somewhere for a magnificent
🧊 🥂 🍻 🥝 🍎 🍏 🍓 🍒🍉 🍋 🍍🍐fruit🍈 🥭🥥 🍅 🍇 🍋🟩 🍌 🫐 🍯 🍹 🍸 🔥 🍊 🍑 🍷 🥃 🍺 🌶️ 🫚 🫖
of 🛖 ❤️💘💔 ❣️🛖 ‼️
I think my emoji should be a 🦇
🙂
SL 📕🦇,
I remember you published a book, so gave 📕 to you. Why 🦇?
No one is using it, if you like, it’s all yours! You’ve got two!
I didn’t know you gave me a book, lol! The bat is because I’m gothy and love bats 🙂
The pangs of guilt are back this morning. I’m more in control though, remembering the words of my wonderful friends the other day. I’m also reminding myself that I’m feeling more guilt than XLO ever will.
In a way I’m glad that intense dislike has eased, and is starting to feel more like apathy, which is certainly all I felt when I spotted her at a distance yesterday. It feels more like I’m moving through a natural cycle.
The guilt isn’t nice though
Jmmo
I draw the line at tattoos too. No thank you. I may be a psychological masochist but I don’t ask for physical pain. Though my wife, who has 4 tattoos, says I have a high pain tolerance. And there is nothing I would want permanently put on my body.
Utterly. Totally. Completely. Agree.
I will gladly own the ⛺️, but scarring proof? Nah!
No tattoos on me so far, and won’t get any.
The forearm birth mark is already artistically “famous” here! 😊
No tattoos for me either! No permanent markings or holes! Just the ones I was born with….
I used to think tats were kind of hot, but that was when people only got a few and it wasn’t very common.
I don’t get why people get tattoos that look like notebook scribbles, or like you wrote up after passing out and your friends gave you the sharpie treatment – but to each their own.
I have had my ears pierced. I wear just small hoop earrings. It was a very late rebellion against my conservative Christian parents. Along with my long hair that has been permanent for years because my wife likes it that way. She won’t let me get a tongue bar though. 🙁 She’s so mean.
I think tats can be sexy. One or two. Not whole sections of the body.
For a man … maybe a small one on the upper arm/shoulder area. That can be hot. It hints at … just a little dirtiness. 🙂
Yes excessive tattoos are a complete turn off. Your entire chest or whole arms just screams “Daddy didn’t love me” on women. In my opinion something tattooed on a person should be meaningful. Not a fad. Not a rebellion. I can take off my earrings, I can cut my hair. On guys it just screams “pay attention to me, I’m a badass”. But in the end it’s obviously each persons’ choice. But like anything people will get an impression on you by how you present yourself no matter whether it is “accepted” by society or not. I got told if I wanted a job I was interviewing for was dependent on me not wearing my earrings if I got hired.
“Your entire chest or whole arms just screams “Daddy didn’t love me” on women”
@Adam,
This is so freaking true. LF used to tell me a lot about her Daddy issues. Her upper body and arms are tatted out a little much if you ask me, but I kinda thought the same thing. Since she said she spent years hating her Father.
After we quit talking, she got another sleeve on her right arm. They aren’t the ugliest tats, but it hasn’t done much for the overall look I think she should go for..
Then again that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.. 😆
This is so interesting about tattoos. I was just in the hospital, story elsewhere, and one of my nurses was heavily tattooed.
I asked her, what if you change your mind? You can change your hair color, your clothing style, even your weight, but tattoos are pretty much forever.
And she said, no I won’t change my mind, each one of these tattoos is something very meaningful to me.
And I thought, I wish I could be around in 20 years to ask her the same question again. I think she was too young to understand.
The worst part of that mentality is, is it Daddy that didn’t love you or “Daddy” if you know what I mean. (Says the man with serious “Mommy” issues.)
I’ve never dated a woman with ink.
Some tats are very elaborate and very pretty but they leave me cold.
What really leaves me cold are the tramp stamps, little ankle tats or tats like roses on the breast.
To me it’s like they’re trying to convey the message that they’re edgy, mysterious, or something. But, in my experience, they’re usually not. I found most of them to be posers.
Best to leave tats to Boatswain’s Mates or bikers. Tats are part of the mileu.
Hi everyone
Spotted LO again this morning. Not sure whether she saw me or not. For a few seconds my brain was scrambling around looking for a feeling to hang on to. It very quickly decided it didn’t need to hang on to anything. I felt nothing. No sadness, anger, loathing, anything. I walked on and, whilst the fleeting glimpse is large in my mind, unlike the other day I don’t think it’s destabilised me. I guess my strongest feeling towards her was probably total apathy.
The feelings of guilt from yesterday are much less, too. Thank you to my closest allies on here for your support yesterday.
Jmmo
Hi @jmmo
Wow, that is amazing. I am so glad you were able to self-regulate and get into the apathetic state as it presented itself. That is wonderful. I picture you drifting on the post-limerence high plains, what is that in the distance? is it real, a mirage? ….ah…the legendary Oasis of Apathy…have a drink, wash your feet…feel the sweet shade!
It is fantastic you are so mindful of your emotions, and their nuances, as they arrive (and depart)…I always think, regarding my own moods and mindsets as they come and go…”This would be fascinating, if it weren’t so horrifying!”
It sounds like, if there is destabilization, it is being reined in by your mind…not a factor.
I will edit a quote I heard the other day (it was meant for a woman)…here’s the male edition, I think you’ll love it…i know it’s cheesy, but cheese is great.
‘that woman’ didn’t meet a man. she met a system.
:)))
Hi csc
Thank you my darling. Yes, I’m not taking anything for granted. I’m yet to be in a situation where we are face to face, and I’m still doing all I can to avoid that situation.
I’m trying to be mindful, and I’m trying to remember everything that’s bad about her. And there’s plenty of that – yet there’s still that bit I’d be saying, really??
I’ve a long way to go. Yet today feels like a small win, which I’ll take.
Oh – and I LOVE that quote!! 😃😍
How are you my BLP??
Hugs, Justme xx
Well, @jmoo
in my opinion, you are doing a great job, and honestly, i am very grateful for all you have shared, here. it helps to know that i am not alone in the strange wobbles my mind takes throughout the day.
there are times when i just…i miss him almost viscerally.
then, there are other times where i feel i have more clarity – seeing him as a total flake.
other times, i remember, i am in a committed relationship, and wonder, how did i almost forget that for an entire year?
it’s all really disorienting. but, i am coming down to feel that the only thing i can do is just…remember to breathe, and be patient.
i heard something interesting today “depression can be our body’s resistance to sadness itself” and that resonated with me. i feel like i’m trying to hold back the tide, much of the time. i felt that way even before my LE. so, these coming months, i will need to take care, with myself.
it is tempting, and easy, to feel i must rush. must ‘right the ship’…but, honestly, i don’t think i can. i’m going away this weekend, and will spend some time in the countryside. i will be with SO, and my Mom. I am hoping it’s restorative. i have spent so many years trying to be some version of myself that made sense to others…to keep others happy! i forgot about myself, what makes me happy.
i think i forgot so much that i’ve lost the thread. i feel in many ways like i am going to have to start totally over…
but for now, i just have to breathe, and go one moment at a time. god i’m an utter mess….i still have hope though that i will be ok. 🙂 sigh. my dance with midlife has been awful. it feels interminable.
csc
“other times, i remember, i am in a committed relationship, and wonder, how did i almost forget that for an entire year?” But I have done that at lest 3 times during a 22 year marriage. The thing is that Limerence (that addiction) doesn’t care. It does what it does.
“there are times when i just…i miss him almost viscerally”. I know. I’ve been there. The fact that I haven’t with “that woman” (©️csc 🤣) speaks volumes. There have been times in other LEs where the pain has been unbearable. And yet there have been times with this LO where I have stopped the car and cried. Cried my eyes out. And for what?
You can only do what you can do. In your own time, at your own speed, I think that you are doing amazingly well BLP. You’ve gone NC, you have cut all of those ties. You are being YOU!
I’m so proud of you x
Hugs Jmmo x
@jmmo
…did you know what limerence was before you found this blog? i remember when you first popped on here, to share your story, and i thought this recent one was your only one…but over time it’s become clear that, like me, you are…well…chronic.
do you remember when your first limerence was? were you always prone to them, or, is it more a phenomenon from within marriage?
personally, i have always been prone. like, since a boy first gave me a smile. i just have the tendency…
i am only curious, my blp. no need to share if you do not wish to, or if you do not have time!
thank you for your kindness. you are a very kind, and caring individual, to all of us here, jmoo.
hugs
@csc
An interesting one. No, I had no idea what limerence was. I had done a ton of reading around ‘unrequited love’, firmly believing that I was in a one-way love affair with this girl who had taken my soul. Yet I vividly remember a voice deep within me , warning me: “you’ve been here before….”
Yes, I am a chronic. I think my first happened at 15. I still hold a love in my heart for her to this day. I still dream about her and think about her – practically daily. My therapist said yesterday that she has enormous power over me, and that it’s still ok for me to be in love with her. I was totally obsessed. It’s happened at least 3-4 other times since. Yes, my tendency is absolute. It is a characteristic we share. I too am utterly prone to that smile, that comment, that person who notices me, who repeatedly engages me in conversation or jokes/fun. That “beautiful” lady who gives me that spark, who awakens something in me. I am happily married. So, why….?
Thank you for your words. Everyone here has been so kind. I’m so glad that I have come to know so many wonderful people – most of all you, lovely blp.
Your kindness, support and friendship mean the world to me. Thank you xx
To JMMO:
I don’t think I was one of those people, but I must tell you that I felt pride and envy when I read your post.
You sound so strong and I hope to get there someday myself.
Norma
You are of my LwL family. So yes, you definitely have been one of those people.
The pride thing humbles me, thank you so much. That’s why you’re one of those people. Because I know you’re there – rooting for me.
The envy bit, however, I’m cautious. I have trouble viewing myself as strong. I actually think I’m a bit feeble. I let “that woman” (©️csc) dominate me. There is nothing for you to envy, Dear Norma. You have plenty about you that is strong, resilient and amazing. You have nothing to learn from me – it’s maybe just that I’m a bit further down the road. And perhaps I’m a much bigger grudge-holder than you!
Thank you for your kind words though….
How are you my dear?
Jmmo
To JMMO:
Thank you for asking about me. Still recovering from two colonoscopies in two days. Glad I have a three-day weekend facing me, with ZERO obligations.
Trying to keep LO on the back burner. I notice my emotions aren’t quite so volatile, so that’s good.
Looks like I am backsliding again.
I ran into LO last night. I told him I had two colonoscopies in two days and I needed some TLC. Astonishingly, he gave it to me. He could not have been nicer. It was heavenly.
The good news–he was nice to me.
The bad news–he was nice to me.
Dear Norma
I hope that this doesn’t sound too hard, I say it from a place of care for you.
Please don’t engage with him, especially on something as sensitive for you. I can fully appreciate your need for him to know, and for him to be the one to comfort you. I know, I really do. Of all the people on earth we want our LOs to know and comfort us. The reality is somewhat different, which you know.
However. You have backslid. So what? We all do. The fact that you have isn’t important. It’s the fact that you know that it won’t be productive – which you do know.
Remember that you only felt as though you needed him to know. You don’t need him to really. Please don’t be hard on yourself. Maybe focus instead on caring for yourself and moving forwards.
As I say, I’m speaking from a place of care and wanting the best for you.
We are all here Norma
With warmest wishes
Jmmo x
To JMMO:
Thank you for your kindness.
Hello all
Again trying to keep up with all the messages! Norma Desmond I hope your colonoscopies were ok and didn’t find anything worrying? jmmo I’m glad to hear your positive news about progress. Let’s hope all of us get some of this! Adam, LE, MJ, Lf, SL, I’m fine with tattoos but haven’t got any and neither do my friends. I think we’re all a bit too square and not that cool. I’ve never even coloured my hair! And it’s starting to go grey. If I coloured my hair now it would be fun to make it pink or blue rather than just cover the grey with my usual colour. But then people really would think I was in midlife crisis.
Snowflake, tractor etc, I’ve tried and failed to follow your hieroglyphics conversation. Hi anyway.
I watched Dr L’s latest video on midlife crisis and limerence and recognise it all! I’ve always known that there must be other people who go through this but it’s nice to have it spelled out in a scientific, non-judgemental way.
Thursday I thought of missing a step each time limerent thoughts crept in. Yesterday I batted them away by reaching into a fruit bowl and putting my finger straight into mouldy fruit, although I had a busy day being purposeful so deflection wasn’t required as much. Today I’m back to stepping on a Lego piece, this time a red 2 x 3 brick. It’s been needed less and I think I’m safe from actual sightings for the next few days at least. I’m not going to do the rubber band thing and cause actual pain, as it would be unwise with my history of self-harm. I will keep reporting back. I wish it were possible to reduce contact further, but I have to be content with keeping myself busy with work and socialise with groups unconnected with LO.
Going back to the discussion about unobtainability feeding limerence, I do think that if things went wrong with my husband I would still want him and miss him and pine for him. I do really love him which is what make my extra-marital limerence so confusing and unsettling. When you’ve been married a long time the familiarity and security can make you feel complacent and dull romantic/sexual feelings. I’m not going to act on this observation and have a fight with him to spice things up!
To Monochrome:
They found one polyp and removed it. Unless the biopsy comes back totally grody/disgusting, I think I’m fine for another few years.
Thank you for asking.
I just had an unpleasant interchange with LO. I ran into him at Starbucks and he was a bit harried. He was making multiple purchases and I helped him carry things out to his car.
He lost his temper with me because he claimed I was trying to make him feel guilty (?) and called me “passive-aggressive.”
I left, disheartened, and then he texted me and apologized. I couldn’t formulate a response. It takes me a LONG time to process things. Then I went to the chiropractor, which is a long drive, and he texted me again, saying he left one item behind at Starbucks and could I go get it for him if I was still in the shopping center? I didn’t see that message because I was on the freeway.
When I didn’t answer about his missing sandwich, he sent me a nasty message, ending with “Have a good day!”
All I could formulate as a response was, “At the doctor. Didn’t see your message.”
When I think of all the times I have texted him and he didn’t respond–it makes my head hurt.
All of this unkindness will help me in the long run, but it sure is painful.
Oh, ugh. As if you didn’t have enough to deal with! Hopefully this will at least help you get over him faster.
To Serial Limerent:
Thank you so much for saying that.
LO doesn’t return my text messages about 50% of the time. But if I don’t respond to ONE of his, all hell breaks loose.
Yeah, that sounds fair.
I do have an update. LO and his mother invited me over for brunch (again). After Mother’s Day, I was apprehensive. However, the entire experience was completely boring.
I was so bored, I was anxious to leave. LO didn’t have much of an effect on me, and it was a relief.
I don’t know if this is temporary, but I hope it continues. Being bored is not necessarily a fun sensation, but it’s glorious as a substitute for limerence.
@Coffeehouse.
More anecdotes drawn from my life for anyone in dire need of reading material.
Funny story one: I’m sitting in a cafe after ordering breakfast.
Cafe owner: “Something for you to read while you wait, sir?” **hands me a children’s picture book**
Sammy: **refuses offer of book** “Hey, that’s a good one!”
Cafe owner: **smirks and walks out the door**
Sammy: **raises voice** “Both the joke and the book!”
The foolish fellow thought he could out-sass me. Boy, was he wrong! 😉
Funny story two: I’m sitting by the edge of a river one evening, watching the world go by. Two attractive young women jog past. A seated middle-aged man notices the two female joggers and yells after them: “You’ll wear yourselves out!”
Sammy: **Observes entire scene and thinks silently to self** “True dat!”
Funny story three: My father and I are standing by the sink in the kitchen one morning. Dad has just finished cooking his breakfast.
Sammy’s dad: **peers out window** “I’ve seen a lot of hoppies out there.”
Sammy: “Buffy? You’re seen a lot of Buffy this morning?” (Buffy is the name of our oldest cat – a female who enjoys hunting. She belongs to my younger sister. At my suggestion, we named her (the cat) Buffy after Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Sammy’s dad: “Hoppies.”
Sammy: “Puppies? Why are puppies running around the top paddock?”
Sammy’s dad: “Hoppies.”
Sammy: “Poppies? Who planted bulbs in the garden?”
Sammy’s dad: “No, Sam. Hoppies. Creatures that hop. Hoppies – kangaroos.”
Sammy: “Oh, hoppies. Why didn’t you say so? It was a long and painful conversation, but we finally got there in the end…”
Long short story: either my father doesn’t enunciate words when he speaks, or I’ve always been hard of hearing. 😆
Thanks for your nuggets of happiness Sammy. It’s been kind of a rough one with Dad today, so I appreciate the humor.. 😉☺😂
“Thanks for your nuggets of happiness Sammy. It’s been kind of a rough one with Dad today, so I appreciate the humor.. 😉☺😂”
🙂
Hi Sammy,
This is in reply to your points to me on the “Bits and Pieces” post but I decided we should move to the Coffeehouse (I sat and wrote this message in an actual coffeehouse!).
Thank you for your comment about my interaction with others on LwL. Appreciated.
“Also, please don’t be put off by the relationship politics that sometimes take place.”
I wouldn’t be now, as I feel pretty established and comfortable talking as part of this community. It is incredibly kind and respectful. I picked that up while still ‘lurking’, and it eventually made me feel comfortable enough to start laying my own stuff out here. Too much visible relationship politics when I first came here might have put me off more.
I think what we can all do well to remember is that almost in the DNA of what brings people to limerence and then here to LwL, is an incredibly sensitive soul. The difficulties we all face when replying to people on LwL is want to respect that sensitivity, but also not to sugarcoat or distort our advice, or to enable, or go against DrL’s general ethos.
Different people are here to be educated (and those who have experienced and studied limerence as much as you can sure educate), to reach for help, just as a safe space to vent out what they can’t vent in real life, or even sometimes – especially at first – to try and get the fairytale rationales they have spun for themselves affirmed. As L.E. has put it ‘to find a way to live with their pathology’.
People come here and stay here at very different points in their limerence journey, with very different histories, backgrounds and desired outcomes, much of which we will never know truthfully, only what they present. Most have experienced the pain of limerence to different degrees. Some newcomers seem to revel in it for a while, until the turn into darker waters (I was one of them to some extent). There are different degrees of moral attitude and values among us. Different boats, united by the same storm.
That all, for me, leaves a lot to think about and balance when I reply to anyone. One thing I always hold in mind is to try to challenge the argument but not the person.
So … I don’t normally get into discussions about personality etc. other than with posters I feel closest to, ie. where I have relationships built over time and lots of messages. But I feel you have sort of invited me into a conversation about personality now, so I will comment.
You are a melange of personalities, but most of the time I find you funny and erudite. If I want to intellectualise on limerence, which I frequently do, you would be one of the first posters I’d come to and whose opinion I’d respect. Your presence here has done a lot for the site and for many of its members.
What I would like to understand better is that to my eye you sometimes seem to ‘flip’ and be personally attacking towards other posters – one in particular and you will know who I mean, but I don’t want to name drop or reignite it between the two of you, as it is not my place to intervene.
With other posters (take L.E, Bewitched, Trifles or Marcia as examples, but there are many), I can see how you banter with them based on an assessment of their personality. You are laughing and so are they laughing too – that’s why it’s funny. You have never said anything to me directly that I don’t like either, save for the one thing about my use of humour a few weeks ago. Lots of us try to use humour, sometimes more effectively than others. I didn’t like what you said to me then, but I pointed it out to you, thought about it, learned what I could, moved on and was back to posting with you on other matters soon afterwards. Not a biggie.
Only with that one poster do I feel your banter has taken a darker turn and is not really funny to either party most of the time now.
I’m a lifelong unofficial student of psychology and I’d love to know how that impasse could be gotten past. Or maybe it can’t. I am overly agreeable (as you yourself have remarked before), sometimes to my detriment in life. It is equally a blessing and a curse. I can’t help it – nature + nurture = I basically want everyone to be friends! Or at least, find a way to quietly tolerate each other.
It would be good for LwL if that was achievable. I would not have seen some of that as terribly welcoming had I encountered it in my lurking phase. I think that might be why DrL intervened last time. I fully respect that you will have your own take on that, and reasons why it may be difficult or impossible. I’m just saying that to my eye, your personality in that dynamic seems out of keeping with all the good aspects of you that radiate out towards others. And I don’t really get that.
I would not have weighed in had I not been asked. I have tried to balance my points here and I don’t think there is anything much to be gained by you and I debating your relationship with said other poster – I am just trying to answer your point/question honestly. If I have been clunky in any of my reply I apologise (I am also sometimes verbose).
My dear Mr LaR,
So we finally meet… 😜
To what do I owe the extreme pleasure of this encounter? And when I say “extreme pleasure”, I mean “exquisite discomfort”. (You’re British, right? I’m sure you understand that even pleasant social interactions can be quite awkward). 😆
Thank you for your long post addressed to me. As you can probably guess, I didn’t bother to read it. When I said I was “tactful”, I was being … tactful. But there’s a catch – “tactful” to me probably doesn’t mean what “tactful” means to you. “Tactful” to me means “strategically lazy when it serves my purposes”. “Truthful” also doesn’t mean “truthful” to me. “Truthful” means “Oh wow. I’ve just had an incredibly convenient bout of selective memory and/or amnesia.” 😜
“Shy” means “I can’t help you move house this weekend. I might meet a strange cat I don’t like.” “Quiet” means “Oh my God. Are you still talking? I thought you finished up forty-five minutes ago. That’s when my brain checked out.” “Modest” means “I haven’t found a nudist colony willing to accept me as a member yet.” 😆
When I said I was “a star”, I mean I like to imagine myself on stage. Unfortunately, I look nothing like Nicole Scherzinger. Nor am I blessed with her beautiful voice. When I said I’m “a leader”, I mean “I’m still bitter about never being picked as a prefect. And yes, I really am one of those petty people who ‘peaked’ in high school. Plus, I was only the third least-deserving candidate for the job…” 😆
I was being sincere, however, when I noted your kindness to other readers. 😉
I’m an INFJ. INFJs can be amazing people. INFJs can also be very judgemental people, although we have an astonishing ability to suspend judgement at will, especially concerning our own flaws and shortcomings. Self-deprecating joke time. I was thinking just the other day: “Good thing I never went into therapy as a profession!” Despite being an empathic person, I don’t think I could resist the urge to excoriate my clients. “Nope – immoral!” “Nope – three sandwiches short of a picnic!” “Nope – spends too much time at the gym.” Basically, I’d end up with no clients after I push all the unacceptable ones out the door… 😊
Non-self-deprecating joke time. I don’t know if you’ve seen the American version of “The Office” starring Steve Carell as office manager Michael Scott? However, there is a wonderful line right at the start of the series when Steve is talking on the phone. He concludes the conversation by saying: “Thank you very much, sir! You are a gentleman and a scholar!”
My dad and I both cracked up when we heard this line, because the line is such an absurd thing to say to someone, and Steve delivers it in such an obnoxiously officious tone. Then it turns out the person on the other end of the call isn’t a man but a woman. A woman with a really deep voice. Probably a lifelong smoker. Steve, of course, is suitably chastised by the whole incident. Or maybe not…
Today, I said “Thank you!” to a straight man (a platonic friend) who was helping me with something, and I accidentally said it in the same obnoxiously officious tone that Steve does. Do you know what my friend did? He said “Thank you!” back to me, and he said it in an even more aggressive tone than Steve and I used! It was like his primitive male brain assumed that I was alpha-maling (asserting dominance over) him and he had to alpha-male me back. Mind you, this is after he called me “boss”, acknowledging I am indeed the alpha male in our bond. 🙄
I have no idea how I, a bashful introvert, end up being the alpha male in my friendships with other men. But I was like: “Whoa! You need to take a chill pill, dude. How old are you again? Early thirties or something? You have way too much testosterone in your system. By the way, can you please stop borrowing my underwear? Even without deodorant and fragrance, I smell like a high-end Italian dessert. Even with deodorant and fragrance, you smell like something that stepped off a basketball court. I can tell when you’ve been in my wardrobe.” 🙂
I also stopped by the lolly shop today and brought seventeen-dollars-worth of lollies. I think I might have a new addiction. I like sweets more than I like attractive men. It’s not “mates before dates”; it’s “chocs before jocks”. (And yes, I am quite consciously choosing to tell the ‘clean version’ of this joke, so no sniggers). 🙂
A delightful rant @Sammy. Thanks for making me lmao.. I enjoyed this immensely.. 😆😂🤣
@MJ.
“A delightful rant @Sammy. Thanks for making me lmao.. I enjoyed this immensely.. 😆😂🤣”
You’re welcome. 🙂
Not a rant, really. More like an interview where I got to pick my own questions. Or maybe an interview where I totally ignored the interviewer’s inoffensive questions. Or maybe an interview where the interviewer didn’t show up, and I decided to proceed with the puff piece anyway. 🙄
I have to get my delusions of being a public figure under control. 🤣
Anytime anyone asks me a question, suddenly I turn into a famous female singer whose record company has ordered to “hit the road and promote your new work. And whatever you do, don’t talk about your scandalous past. You’re trying to make a comeback, love – not further tarnish your already-tarnished image. Everyone has invested a lot of money in you. We want nice-Mum-and-Dad-bums in seats, not more vulgar headlines.” 😜
In seventh grade at school, one semester we had to pretend to be a member of parliament and address the parliament (made up of fellow pupils) as an assignment. I chose to be the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. After I finished speaking, you could hear a pin drop. Everyone was staring at me in awe. Nobody had any questions. I think even the teacher, huddled behind her desk at the back of classroom, was weeping…
Her thought process probably ran something along these lines: “Oh my God, yes! This is why I went into the teaching profession! Finally, a student who gets it!” 🤣
Brigit Macron on the wedding altar, “Oh my God, Yes! This is why I went into the teaching profession! Finally, a student who gets it, marries me and becomes French President!” 🤣
@MJ.
I just watched a YouTube video of Nicole Scherzinger in 2017 performing “Don’t Cha” at the One For The Boys Fashion Ball, The V & A, London.
Nicole: **addressing audience before launching into song** “Ladies. Where’s all the beautiful ladies out in the house tonight?”
Cheeky fellow/possibly some distant English cousin of MJ’s: **raises hand**
Nicole: **spots cheeky fellow from where she’s standing on stage, arches one eyebrow at him, and giggles good-naturedly** “You a man!”
I love Nicole. She is everything one could ask for in a performer. A rare beauty. An amazing talent. A consummate professional. 🙂
“I love Nicole. She is everything one could ask for in a performer. A rare beauty. An amazing talent. A consummate professional.”
@Sammy,
You’re a funny man Sammy. I got a kick out of this. 🤣🤣
Probably because her name is Nicole and that’s my Ex wife’s name. Not only that, it was LFs middle name also..
@MJ.
“You’re a funny man Sammy. I got a kick out of this. 🤣🤣
Probably because her name is Nicole and that’s my Ex wife’s name. Not only that, it was LFs middle name also…”
Clearly, all the Nicoles of this world are keepers. We just have to find a way to talk them into keeping us. 🙂
“Clearly, all the Nicoles of this world are keepers. We just have to find a way to talk them into keeping us.”
@Sammy,
Amen to that 👆🏻
Brother..
Hello All, Sarah here. Been limerent in the past, badly, and this website has helped me greatly to get over it. I back then went NC, multiple attempts, and years later, we’re slowly started contact again, and now have a great friendship, with healthy boundaries. It could have just ended so well right then and there.
Well, one of the immediate strategies I applied back then was transferral. What could possibly go wrong? What went wrong is that I am now madly limerent for what started out as a harmless transferral distraction. That transferral LO eventually became my boss, and our working relationship went really well. Like the kind of working relationship you objectively could dream of. Fast forward a few years, I keep the story short, I believe LO may like me as well. LO has been super supportive of me, providing me with many professional opportunities (although never prompted me or other things one might think someone might do), and from the outside this looks like a great working relationship where I am being pushed and supported and have a great career in front of me. If there weren’t my limerent feelings in the way. I realize that while I will never be anything to LO privately (we’ve never had contact on a personal level, no texting, no private meetings outside the office, clear boundaries, we’re not friends), I seem to be longing to make up for it to be something to him professionally, like a trusted advisor, a right hand, a confidant. And I came to realize that I will never be what I want to be for him professionally. I am trying to over-compensate what i am not privately to be professionally, if that makes sense. And that realization hurts. It hurts so much that I want to leave my job.
Colleagues obviously saw the great connection we have but told me that I should not trust that LO has a plan for me professionally and put all my career eggs in one basket. They said “I am convenient to have”, as I get done what LO needs to get done, without too many demands, in a sense alluring to LO using me. None of my colleagues or friends know about my limerence.
To make matters worse, LO is exceptionally talented and will make it very very far in the corporate ladder to the very top and there is actually so much to learn from him (and this isn’t Limerence in me speaking, this is acknowledged by a lot of people at work, he’s just a very exceptional professional). So you kinda want to be associated with him professionally.
But I really came to the realization today that I feel like I must go. And until I can find a new job, the only way out is limit contract, stop rumination, and do what I’ve done before: get over it. But it is hard, and it hurts.
Hi Sarah,
Welcome back, good to have you here (if that’s ever a thing that can be said based on a person’s reason to have to come back!).
I’m a male, in the tail end of an intense 2 year LE with a coworker/friend. I honestly thought it would never end. But I have now ended the worst of it. I level with your comment so much that you are “trying to over-compensate what i am not privately to be professionally”. Several of us here have done that.
I’m also a hopeless optimist at times and wonder if there could be a way you could solve this while not leaving a job you seem to like and be doing really well at. You have the tools from before, it sounds like. It can be done through LC and strict boundaries, even if it is hard.
You must no doubt have thought all that through, but my instinctive reply would be it is a real shame if limerence ‘win’ in this scenario, especially if your LO is a decent guy who isn’t playing into the situation (my LO was like that, especially in the last year. She kind of has acted to help me get out of limerence, without there ever being a direct disclosure, only ‘leakage’).
Sending strength,
LaR
Thanks, LaR. I’d say good to be back, but it kind of isn’t …
Yeah you’re right, I’ve read pretty much every blog entry here and should know what I need to do… and in theory, I do, it’s just hard to follow through.
He is a decent guy, and agree, it would be a shame to have Limerence win in this situation. It no doubt will change going forward as with LC, there clearly will be “cold periods” and the dynamic between us for sure will change and be noticeable to him and others.
Wanting to be this “special trusted person” at work- ambition doesn’t help, as I find myself getting jealous of other colleagues are getting his attention.
I have days where I feel it is going to be ok and days where I’m feel there is no other way out than to leave, and I find it very hard to contain my emotions at work, which i clearly explain and justify with tons of other reasons and explanations related to the job, not to my limerence. Yesterday was horrible and I get frustrated when i don’t do the job perfectly, I see everything dark (but also clear that I need to leave), then the next day I’m back to, “oh this is not so bad, I can handle it it doesn’t affect me that much”. Who am I kidding.. it does affect me, and it is not good. I think deep down I know it will have to be NC, no way around it i feel. At least for some time.
I am fine if I don’t see him. He travels a lot for work so I sometimes don’t see him for weeks at the time and he will also be gone from work for 6 weeks soon. Maybe that helps and it will actually be good for me. I have to use that time as it is a gift to reset myself and hopefully my limerence won’t flare up again when he is back.
I am very clear and have no illusion that there will ever be more, and I don’t want more from him. There is no scenario in my head that would involve him and me be together, so at least that’s good. I’m clear as well that I like the picture I created of him in my head and not him as actual person. That the person I make him to be is different from who he actually is.
But yeah… i am up for some pain until i come out on the other side of the Limerence tunnel.
Hi again Sarah,
“There is no scenario in my head that would involve him and me be together, so at least that’s good.”
That sounds like a good sign – one that suggests you have already gone through ‘Intellectual Death of Hope’ (iDoH – such an uplifting term!) and now just have ‘Viseceral Death of Hope’ (vDoH) to go. In less technical terms – the brain is there but the feelings need to catch up.
When I was at that point, other LwL posters assured me – sometimes against my own arguments at the time – that if I waited it out, the feelings would catch up. I thought they wouldn’t, but they eventually did. It was maybe a solid 6 months or more between the two. My brain and body just tired of the battle in the end.
No two LEs are the same but maybe there is are different ways open for you. I had to pull back on more things than you do, eg the LE had intruded quite far into texts and non-work life too. It can be done with LC if NC is out of the question – there are other LC successes here too.
The six weeks NC will give you a really decent reset period as you say, to focus on you and ponder your next steps. I’m sorry to seem to have gone against what you initially said (that you need to leave your job) – I just felt from your message that that would be a sad outcome.
“Wanting to be this “special trusted person” at work- ambition doesn’t help, as I find myself getting jealous of other colleagues are getting his attention.”
That would sound like the key bit for you to work on. If you could crack that nut a bit, the rest may smash more easily.
“I believe LO may like me as well.”
I am not sure if that ‘like’ means you suspect some reciprocation of feelings, or just he likes you as a friend or colleague or person. I don’t think it matters that much for this question.. If it’s correct, then when you pull back and there is a noticeable dynamic change, do you think he is likely to sense why and kind of ‘work with you’ to help manage a route clear of it? It sounds like he is a decent person so wouldn’t react the other way. That might make a difference. It shouldn’t affect your work prospects if he’s a fair guy.
Please stay with us and update if it helps. I think lots of the other active female posters will also find your story interesting, but it is possible some of them are away at the moment or that the post got a bit lost in what has been a really busy spell for communication here.
Yep, looks like I’ve gone through IDoH, had to laugh when I read that. But that is what differed from my last LO where I really thought, LO was the perfect human being for me, meant for me.
Current transferral LO? Very different. In love with him work-wise, so intelligent, strategic, diplomatic (and young, a few years younger than I am), but I never had any interest to be in a relationship with him or be his wife.
Also for what I care (or not), he may be in a well-functioning marriage, and I would not want to break that up, because I also don’t want mine to end. I definitely have the advantage of having read all blog posts in here, know about Limerence, know how it works, and know that I am not interested in him (who I really don’t know that well at all), but the image I created of him in my head.
And to your point, LaR, thank god we have no private contact, no texts, no nothing, he has not invaded my private space (other than my own rumination).
But you are right, I will have to stop wanting to be that special person to him at work, and keep my emotional turmoil at bay. I don’t know how to do that.
And in a way, I think I am “a” special person to him, which is noticed by others. I’ve been working for him previously for years, hence we work well together. He changed roles, and everyone expected he would take me with him, but he didn’t. Because he is a principled guy that wanted to move without taking any confidants with him, he didn’t want to be seen as such a person (he told me even that was the reason he didn’t take me with him). He took me over about a year later, and I guess this is where people noticed the level of trust I receive from him, and the easy access I have to him in terms of moving projects etc ahead. Tbh he could have just taken me with him at the beginning if you ask me. Because it now just makes it a bit weirder for me to fit into his new organization.
But this is where my gut is telling me that he likes me somewhat too. I’ve had career development talks with him and he knows I want to be close to him work-wise, and he told me clearly “but you are”. In his mind, and he’s not wrong, he does tell me more than others and I do already have his trust. And there are those moments where there might be a look too long or an occasional arm touch too long… although very subtle. my gut tells me there’s something there. But that doesn’t matter. And as said he is highly principled and that is good that way.
But to your point, LaR, if I pull back, he probably will notice… or he won’t as he’s busy, that’s a possibility too 😂 but I think he will. I do think he would be supportive.
I think my hardest part is to not “be moody”, like I am so conflicted inside, and jealous, and try to keep it together, and even though I don’t want to do that, it shows. it is hard not to show my emotions at work, and clearly I let it out on work situations, him, other people, complain about some work related frustrations. And I guess that will be worse when I decide to go LC. Like that’s the hardest, and while others think I am just frustrated with work, I (and only I) know it has to do with LO. My mood is unfortunately very dependent on LO.
Any tipps or strategies on how to handle that would be highly appreciated?
Sarah,
To name drop a couple of other posters in case they see and can help, @Speedwagon dealt with trying to end his LE for a female member of his staff in close proximity at work for a long time, and says he has now succeeded, and @Mila dealt with a drawn out DoH in a work situation (and like you with no vision that LO would be a realistic alternative to SO) – they might have stuff to offer.
My ‘big’ LE (not mu only one but the one that brought me to come here and learn what limerence even was) had no power differential at work but in other ways was similar.
How to deal with the moodiness showing? I had to invent other reasons or embellish real plausible ones, so I think not that different to what you’re doing. I’m not sure if it washed. There was a conversation before the real LC effort which I have described here before as ‘saying it without saying it’ – so I *think* both parties were a bit in the know but under the radar.
I also think we actually did both get a bit fed up with the other over a work matter at the time – about the only work clash we’ve ever had and probably a projection of the other bit – but it helped create some natural distance for a while. I’m not exactly saying engineer something like that – or am I?!
As for managing mood dependence on an LO, it won’t be anything you didn’t learn here before, I guess … I recommend a combo of the following: purposefully allocate them designated ‘mind processing time’ to hopefully stop them arriving so much in the mind at other times; distract yourself in any ways that work at other times; accept and question their presence when they do pop into mind (more than fight it); write in a journal and/or here about it if it clears the mind. Some people on here understandably go down the road of noticing or finding undesirable things about their LO so that the LO seems less deserving of their attention. I haven’t done much of that – harder with a ‘good LO’. I deliberately kept out of her orbit as much as possible for a spell, but got past it and now co-exist well with her again, and my mind is at peace about her. It took time to get here.
The stuff you have with him about being confidantes and looking out for each other could be really nice if only it could be decoupled from triggering limerence. I consider that me and my xLO still do that for each other now.
Limerence isn’t always (even often) physical desire – more often emotional reciprocation. So I get why you feel like you do, even with no realistic vision of a romantic relationship with him. I did have desire too, but that seemed to arrive later and stay for less long than the emotional side for me too.
Thanks for the name drops, always helps learning from others, snd realize how similar our experiences are.
Having a work fight with LO… I did have one or the other situation where I thought I annoyed LO (and didn’t hold it back really) and I was annoyed with him. But (unfortunately) he always manages to calm me down when I speak to him even when I try to stay mad, and I don’t even think he does it on purpose, I think he doesn’t even realize I am mad at him.
I do write in a pw-protected journal. I started that during the last LO at the end of the LO episode, and now did that right from the beginning, it really does help and was also the reason why i didn’t come back to this site for this long. But least w’end it really clicked in my brain that i have to acknowledge LO’s impact on me at work. Even though I knew that unconsciously, I still thought I could compartmentalize it, and separate it from work and had to realize, I can’t. I need to actively manage it and get myself out of it.
Acknowledging that for myself AND write about it here, not just in my journal kinda helps to make my LO problem real. I have to face it, not just to myself but to this community.
More humour from the Sammy Sams household:
Scene One:
Sammy’s dad: **commenting on the lamb chop he cooked himself for lunch** “The expectation exceeds the actuality.”
(Did I inherit my language abilities from my father? Starting to think I did!) 🙂
Scene Two:
Dad and I are both hanging our clothes out on the clothesline at the same time.
Sammy: **leans in and speaks in a conspiratorial whisper** “I see you have your own method.”
Sammy and Sammy’s dad: **both burst into giggles**
(Who knew housework could be so much fun with the right attitude?) 😜
Marcia,
I’m moving our thread here, it was a bit too long in its old place…
“So this is my point. You sensed, at least on some level, that the friendship was a little off. Really strong feelings. Some anxiety. Not entirely reciprocal. And his push-pull behavior.”
Your point is valid here. I think a limerent can sense a lot with anyone, whether it’s regularly friends or colleagues, let alone LO; however, our sensitivity was often unconfirmed by LO (not in your case). Moreover, limerents often sensed or imagined many things there when they were not there in interactions with LO. When I realized this later in the middle of my LE, I just compartmentalized my imagination and the reality, since they did not go hand in hand a lot of times. I didn’t completely lose my “vision”/T-mind.
Still, I didn’t know and understand what I “had” and why, why, why. I mentioned here before that I felt like I had created a creature — the Phantom, between the realistic ET and myself, and even “sensed” sometimes that thePhantom was standing in between us, blocking me from getting closer to the real person.
“Therapists rarely do. And they don’t know how to help with the limerence. With mine, we spent too much time discussing my LO and his behavior. That’s what a limerent wants to do! Talk about their LO! But it’s just increasing the ruminating. What should be done is to discuss WHY the limerent has become limerent and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. “
I 🆎 agree with you here! Any therapy that is not focused on one’s inside, should be aborted.
“I hesitate to use the word love. I don’t think limerence is love. But I definitely thought I was “in love” with him. “
I agreed with you before that limerence is NOT love, but I did not have clear ideas about differences between “in love” and “love”, until much later.
— “In love the other is important; in lust you are important.” LE is more like “in lust” because it was driven by the pair-bonding drive.
In the last year after I came to LwL and before left the old job, I entered DoH (death of hope) while the departure was set to take place in 9 months, and ET continued his private rendezvous regularly. I wanted to make the remaining time as pleasant as possible, so just repressed my jealousy, kept my monologues going, apologized for my nasty letter of one year earlier calling him a “professional Narc”, and shared a couple of teatimes with him for big holidays… I was in “all giving and forgiving” mode, thus my term, a “unrequited in-love”.
“I understand that. I was as well. Floating along, unsure of what I wanted. And he gave me something to focus on — him!– and a goal. Him! I have since of course learned: NEVER, never make landing a specific person a goal. “
I didn’t know what I wanted in my LE, but ET was not a goal, definitely not for the 1st four years. Now, I totally agree with your view that it is very UNWISE to “make landing a specific person a goal”, period! For me, even “relating to others” should be a byproduct of one’s primarily goals (career, hobbies, family…).
“I understand that desire as well. I wanted the same with mine. It was like trying to pry open a clam. “
A push-pull, unavailable LO can be like a clam! 🤭 But if you really open up its shell, it dies immediately. So let it/him open on his own…
“In retrospect, I think there wasn’t much beneath the surface with him. I think he was pretty shallow. “
I can’t and won’t describe ET as shallow, but the relationship he wanted with me was “shallow/superficial” by my standards. I desired a full-scale romance as if for budding Romeo and Juliet and dreamt all my life to have a profound emotional, mental, and soulful connection with a 🅱️🅿️…. But it seems to be like climbing to the 🌙…
“If you could have gotten in to a relationship. But at least with mine, just knowing he had some kind of reciprocal feelings didn’t end the LE. Not by a long shot. “
I now understand the difference between “reciprocal feelings” and an actual relationship. I seemed to just want reciprocal feelings, without really thinking what I could do with it, except becoming uncontrollable giddy.
“And it sounds like yours did as well. Had some feelings. But that didn’t stop your limerence. “
By my standards/wishes, I did not got confirmed “reciprocal feelings” in writing or in person, until your post analysis of my case. Like some limerents here, I knew I could not have a relationship with ET, but just hoped so much I could get that “reciprocal feelings”, preferable without my disclosure first.
Now, in hindsight, he did have a lot of reciprocating feelings for me at the first half of LE, I saw them in his eyes on several occasions, in which he almost lost his control of cool equilibrium.
“That would mean something to me as well. Compliment something specific to me. It makes me feel like the person is paying attention. “
He did pay a great deal of attention to my “confessions” of all sorts in the first 4 years, he could remember facts I told him two years previously. In the second the dark period, his attention was reduced.
“What were you giving him? Attention? A sense of trust that you were sharing your innermost thoughts? You wrote he liked to be liked. It sounds like he gave you a lot. Even if it was passively listening. “
Yes, I gave him his most desired attention/affection written all over on my face, in my monologues and poems, a sense of trust through over 2000 missives/collages, compliments, small gifts, exotic snacks, holiday food, etc… I never received any gifts from him except passive, non-judgmental listening, without which my old cptsd could not ever be healed. I thanked him for this again and again…
“This is a good point. I believe limerence bubbles up from unmet needs. That’s what I meant by “stuff.”
I agree with you that most limerence, if not all, is derived from childhood unmet needs, 🆎 in my case! I also see it in some cases in LwL, but some could not see this point or are unwilling to work on themselves… They could not help focus on their LO, which won’t help discover and then remove possible roots of their LEs.
”On some level, I think this is true. We learn more from pain than happiness.”
Based on Proust and many philosophers, people learn ONLY from pains. When happy or content, we become complacent.
”No. I knew I was into my LO the second I saw him. I don’t know why. I could feel how I was reacting to him. “
ALL my 19 Glimmers took place in first 5 seconds, I felt a subtle click in my brain but I had no words to describe them. I knew the sensation but could not tell what I just felt in that 5 seconds.
“I think it depends on the feelings. I have trouble expressing romantic feelings. Not anywhere near as much when expressing feelings with friends. “
As I mentioned before, COO traditions discourage expression of emotions, considering they are just whimsical moods, coming and going all the time. Treating emotions seriously is silly/laughable; tears in both girls/women and boys/men are viewed as weakness and thus should be controlled. I still have a hard time to get my tears falling or flowing (but once they rarely did, their power was beyond my imagination). Logic and wisdom are mostly respected or even revered in COO.
That’s why I could not describe what I was feeling with my most favorite, motherly therapist in 2015. But unfortunately, she had to relocate after I saw her only for one year. Afterwards, I didn’t like any of my therapists.
“What’s interesting (and I’m sure not uncommon) is that I become anxious during an LE. “
That’s totally understandable. I think every active limerent is in the anxious attaching mode, due to uncertainty of LE.
“That’s not enough. I had that, regardless. I wanted him. I wanted more. “
I know all my life I have wanted profound emotional, mental connections and uplifting creativities; physical connection seemed to be secondary. Perhaps due to the traumatic encounter or easy boredom from things that were mere physical or superficial. I think I desired that peeked energy and creative drive, engined or inspired by LE. I believe that Glimmer consists not just DNA drive hidden in the Unconscious, but also some sensual, emotional and spiritual stuff coming from the Unconscious.
“That’s good. I can’t seem to remember the good parts of my LE. Only all the time I wasted. And how he led me on.”
My Granny and Dad modeled excellently on how to forgive dark sides of human natures and behaviors while cherishing their bright sides, even if they were just a tiny portion. This world by default is more than 80% imperfect. But we still need to strive for other 20% hopefuls.
If we continue to review my LE and ET, I might end up scratching my itchy fingers again (meaning I’ll click the keyboard and send out my monologues to the Mars again 😨 ). I make try to remember his specific hurtful behaviors in order to stop my rarely itchy fingers nowadays.
“Most definitely. It took me a very, very long time to go completely NC. Several different attempts at it. And by the time I did, I was utterly annoyed with him. “
I did 2-3 LCs and 2 NCs in the first 5 years, but all failed, until the forced NC took place in the end of 7 full years. To be honest, if the job situation did not change, I don’t think I’d ever succeed in NC, despite I considered myself a 50% Stoic back then. My LE needs and expectations were small.
“I will say your family is very open with you about their lives and their history. I think that’s nice. Mine is not. You can know them all your life and not really know who they are.”
Oh, no. My parents were not open with me at all! As I said I ear-dropped on Dad’s informing conversation with Granny (they thought I was sleeping on a nearby bed) and got all stories of my parents’ marital dramas in 2 hours. Granny’s story was recorded on the tape as my writing project for my college degree in Literature Writing.
“I think you can do a LITTLE bit more to hopefully inspire them to do more. But if they’re not reciprocating or not reciprocating much… there isn’t much you can do. “
Totally agree. It’s a dual tango; both sides have to coordinate and put in same amount of efforts. But each side could lead and inspire more at different times. Trust me, I will be able to dance with a branch of a tree!
“If I realize I can’t achieve this goal, I’d walk away. ” You don’t always have to walk. Depends on the type of relationship and the context. You can just adjust your expectations and how much effort/energy you put into the relationship. I’m speaking more of friendship here. “
Totally agree with friendship (I was thinking about romance). With friendship, I’m much, more accepting, laid back, and less expectant. But if they are unable to carry some meaningful conversation, discussion, and debates, due to different mentality and sentimentality, I then would drift away soon or later naturally. I want more time for my own living.
“I prefer someone who has what I lack. I understand introverts but I don’t want to date one. “
I don’t think I can date extroverts (as friends, great!). Most of them are busy and talkative showing themselves in all sorts of exuberant ways, instead of contemplating, reflecting, sensing, measured dialoguing, quietly conversing… I want to date someone with whom conversations would never run out and we both can make something out of nothing….
“You don’t love someone for their looks, or their clothes, or for their fancy car, but because they sing a song only you can hear.” — Oscar Wilde
Typo: “Trust me, I will NOT be able to dance with a branch of a tree!”
As I mentioned, more then often I subconsciously omitted “not, no, un-“ in my writing and can’t see it while editing, because in COO, saying direct NO is considered very rude and hurtful… so we always habitually avoided Negating phrases or sentences, so to “save face” for the listener or debater.
One goes round and round to mean No, without ever saying direct No creating a seemingly harmony dynamic. With strangers or just acquaintances, it works well. Harmony in superficial socializing is the primary focus, no matter what subjects are at hand.
Friendship and romance, or your “circle/clan”, are totally different matters.
Ah, my wakeup ramblings… 😀
Snow,
“I think a limerent can sense a lot with anyone, whether it’s regularly friends or colleagues, let alone LO; however, our sensitivity was often unconfirmed by LO (not in your case). ”
I’d say in your case there were some indications.
“When I realized this later in the middle of my LE, I just compartmentalized my imagination and the reality, since they did not go hand in hand a lot of times. I didn’t completely lose my “vision”/T-mind.”
I like the way you put that. The compartmentalization.
“I mentioned here before that I felt like I had created a creature — the Phantom, between the realistic ET and myself, and even “sensed” sometimes that the Phantom was standing in between us, blocking me from getting closer to the real person.”
That’s really interesting. I’ve sometimes felt I created a character when I interacted with men. I’m not sure any other way to put that.
“— “In love the other is important; in lust you are important.” LE is more like “in lust” because it was driven by the pair-bonding drive.”
That’s true. Although I think there’s much more to an LE than lust. There’s such a great need for emotional reciprocation. I think of “in love” as the initial infatuation phase; “love” as real bonding after the first phase dies down.
“I was in “all giving and forgiving” mode, thus my term, a “unrequited in-love”.”
Do you think that helped? There’s been something of a debate on here because some people get into an anger phase with the LO. I did. I think it helped me to go NC. I don’t know if I’ve forgiven him but I’m not angry anymore. I look back at it and think: What a waste of time.
“For me, even “relating to others” should be a byproduct of one’s primarily goals (career, hobbies, family…).”
I mean, I think you can have broad social goals. “I’d like to expand my social circle.” So you join some groups, for example. Or even “I’d like to start dating.” And you join a dating site. But you have to keep your expectations somewhat grounded.
“A push-pull, unavailable LO can be like a clam! 🤭 But if you really open up its shell, it dies immediately. So let it/him open on his own…”
Ah … what is this “let him open on his own” that you speak of? (I’m teasing.) I’m a limerent! I must push for answers!
“I can’t and won’t describe ET as shallow, but the relationship he wanted with me was “shallow/superficial” by my standards. ”
No, your LO doesn’t sound shallow to me.
“I desired a full-scale romance as if for budding Romeo and Juliet and dreamt all my life to have a profound emotional, mental, and soulful connection with a 🅱️🅿️…. But it seems to be like climbing to the 🌙…”
I don’t know your symbols. What is a BP? Climbing to the moon?
I definitely wanted my LO to be “in love” with me and have some big, intense thing (whatever that meant, who knows).
“I now understand the difference between “reciprocal feelings” and an actual relationship. ”
That’s what I’m talking about.
“By my standards/wishes, I did not got confirmed “reciprocal feelings” in writing or in person, until your post analysis of my case. ”
My best guess … because of course I can’t get inside his head … was that he did have feelings, cared about you and would have been down for a PA. I know that’s not what you wanted. I’m guessing that he found you hard to read.
“Now, in hindsight, he did have a lot of reciprocating feelings for me at the first half of LE, I saw them in his eyes on several occasions, in which he almost lost his control of cool equilibrium.”
Also in some of the comments he made. About how the things you wrote affected him.
“He did pay a great deal of attention to my “confessions” of all sorts in the first 4 years, he could remember facts I told him two years previously. In the second the dark period, his attention was reduced.”
I’m guessing that was because he wanted a PA and moved on to someone. I don’t think that’s all he wanted. But, no, I don’t think he could provide the entirety of what you wanted.
“I never received any gifts from him except passive, non-judgmental listening, without which my old cptsd could not ever be healed. I thanked him for this again and again…”
Well, maybe your LE was ultimately a good thing. Some real growth and healing came out of it.
“I agree with you that most limerence, if not all, is derived from childhood unmet needs, 🆎 in my case!”
I’d say it’s unmet needs. There are posters on here, Dr. L included, who had good childhoods and are in happy relationships. So it’s not unmet childhood needs for everyone. But I’d say a good number of limerents do have childhood trauma. I have no idea how many.
“Based on Proust and many philosophers, people learn ONLY from pains. When happy or content, we become complacent.”
That’s probably very true.
“I knew the sensation but could not tell what I just felt in that 5 seconds.”
But you knew you were attracted, right?
“As I mentioned before, COO traditions discourage expression of emotions, considering they are just whimsical moods, coming and going all the time. ”
There’s some truth to this as well.
“Treating emotions seriously is silly/laughable; tears in both girls/women and boys/men are viewed as weakness and thus should be controlled. I still have a hard time to get my tears falling or flowing (but once they rarely did, their power was beyond my imagination). ”
I do think that people need catharsis and emotional release. So I don’t think crying is a weakness.
“Afterwards, I didn’t like any of my therapists.”
It’s hard to find one you really click with.
“I know all my life I have wanted profound emotional, mental connections and uplifting creativities; physical connection seemed to be secondary.”
I understand what you’re saying. I wanted those things, too, I just didn’t necessarily expect them all from a romantic relationship.
“Perhaps due to the traumatic encounter or easy boredom from things that were mere physical or superficial.”
I understand. I do think the physical stuff has the potential to be very superficial.
“My Granny and Dad modeled excellently on how to forgive dark sides of human natures and behaviors while cherishing their bright sides”
Was your grandmother your father’s mother?
” I make try to remember his specific hurtful behaviors in order to stop my rarely itchy fingers nowadays.”
You mean that you would contact your LO again? Please don’t! You’ve made such great progress.
“To be honest, if the job situation did not change, I don’t think I’d ever succeed in NC.”
That’s good, then. That you had to go NC. (although of course not good for the loss of the job)
“Oh, no. My parents were not open with me at all! As I said I ear-dropped on Dad’s informing conversation with Granny (they thought I was sleeping on a nearby bed) and got all stories of my parents’ marital dramas in 2 hours. Granny’s story was recorded on the tape as my writing project for my college degree in Literature Writing.”
Did you interview your grandma for the writing project?
“Totally agree with friendship (I was thinking about romance). ”
Yes, with romance, you do have to kind of say … I need to walk if not much is happening.
“With friendship, I’m much, more accepting, laid back, and less expectant. ”
I’m learning to be less expectant. I think part of me has always wanted a BFF like I had when I was younger (teens, 20s). I don’t think that’s realistic for adult friendship.
“I don’t think I can date extroverts (as friends, great!). Most of them are busy and talkative showing themselves in all sorts of exuberant ways”
Sometimes they can need to be entertained, which I would find draining. But I need someone to kind of pull me out of myself.
“because in COO, saying direct NO is considered very rude and hurtful… so we always habitually avoided Negating phrases or sentences, so to “save face” for the listener or debater.”
I think that’s true to a certain extent in the West, too. At least if you are a woman. You’re taught to be nice and think of the other person.
“Friendship and romance, or your “circle/clan”, are totally different matters.”
So you can be direct in friendship and romance?
Marcia,
“I’d say in your case there were some indications. “
Only my EA-ignorant pumpkin head did not get it! Gosh, I missed my dreamt emotional reciprocation! How regretful I am now… 😭🪣 (kidding 🤭 )
“I like the way you put that. The compartmentalization. “
Growing in COO, we are masters in compartmentalization… extra T-mind. Otherwise, with only LE drooling face and mind, one could possibly end up in a labor camp or exile to Siberia.
“That’s really interesting. I’ve sometimes felt I created a character when I interacted with men. I’m not sure any other way to put that. “
Whether the Phantom or “character”, it shows that the limerent (or a dating?) mind, by definition, fantasizes LO/LE, seeing things that are not there, unrealistic.
“That’s true. Although I think there’s much more to an LE than lust.”
I agree with you here. I think “fall in lust” defines Glimmer, not in limerence yet.
“There’s such a great need for emotional reciprocation. I think of “in love” as the initial infatuation phase; “love” as real bonding after the first phase dies down. “
Yes. But as you talked with 👻 here, it’s a huge challenge to transfer “in love” to “love”, — transfer/extend Eros + Mania love to combine with other 6 types of love (Philia, Ludus, Agape, Pragma, Philautia, Storge). I think it’s possible after PA and EA are reciprocated in harmony stage.
“Do you think that helped? “
Yes, it helped. It’s a Stoic mind combined with Buddhistic way — giving without expecting to receive anything in return. Not really hard with a COO background.
“There’s been something of a debate on here because some people get into an anger phase with the LO. I did. I think it helped me to go NC. I don’t know if I’ve forgiven him but I’m not angry anymore. I look back at it and think: What a waste of time. “
By nature, I can’t stay angry long against anything or anyone, even if you pay me for it. And in my case, I can’t complain a thing about ET’s personal treatment of me, f2f and in writing , besides elusive behaviors and words, and that pet LO/Lim (nothing to do with me).
But I had bouts of resentment or regrets here or there against him and myself. Then my T-mind, habit to appreciate/cherish the bright side of a coin, and Stoic and physical meditations would help dissipate those mild resentments and regrets soon (never longer than a day or two).
“I mean, I think you can have broad social goals. “I’d like to expand my social circle.” So you join some groups, for example. Or even “I’d like to start dating.” And you join a dating site. But you have to keep your expectations somewhat grounded. “
I don’t have social goals, I’m already used to be a lone-wolf, or an odd ball, although I do wish to have a long-term compatible companion/partner. Low expectations? I haven’t seen anyone (except lurkers) in this entire site who has lower expectations than me. I’m not saying that I’m altruistic, but I get a lot of gratifications by creating, writing, exchanging thoughts, or “preaching”….
“Ah … what is this “let him open on his own” that you speak of? (I’m teasing.) I’m a limerent! I must push for answers! “
I’m 🤔: if the clam opens its shell on its own, what am I going to do with its meat? How am I going to taste/eat it while keeping it alive… 😂 😂 (kidding?)
“No, your LO doesn’t sound shallow to me. “
Sis, you’ve got to slow down confirming my positive suspicions about ET; otherwise, I’m going to 😭 😭 for the forced NC, possibly for eternity….
“I don’t know your symbols. What is a BP? Climbing to the moon?”
🅱️🅿️ — Beloved Person. Yes, it’s as hard as climbing to the moon!
“I definitely wanted my LO to be “in love” with me and have some big, intense thing (whatever that meant, who knows).”
Who does not⁉️ But one can’t expects an ideal. I don’t want another unavailable LO again, but a 🅱️🅿️. If I no longer have such a luck, C’est le vie!
“My best guess … because of course I can’t get inside his head … was that he did have feelings, cared about you and would have been down for a PA. I know that’s not what you wanted. I’m guessing that he found you hard to read. “
Your guess was correct, I have to say. But I turned down his readiness/gesture to follow through… I was not hard to read because I told him a lot about my past (not in details) through my monologues, from LE1-LE6, and some short romance in between. Remember, he was trustfully treated as a surrogate parent, confidant, unlicensed “therapist”, but not a lover, not in my mind. (Who can think about having PA with a red-cloaked bishop⁉️)
“Also in some of the comments he made. About how the things you wrote affected him. “
You see, I was so short of self-confidence that I never believed that his mind/heart could be changed/affected by my words. Of course, we chitchated regularly at work, where both could sense things….
“I’m guessing that was because he wanted a PA and moved on to someone. I don’t think that’s all he wanted. But, no, I don’t think he could provide the entirety of what you wanted. “
Your reasoning is very logical with the facts I know… But he’s respectful, never too obvious or pushy in what he had wished, only subtly suggested several times, even a year after that pet appeared and stayed in the scene. By then, I just didn’t want to hop on that busy matrix — 🆎 refused to compete with any other woman (never did in my entire life.)
You’re also🆎 right that he’d never provide the kind of romance I wanted. When he began that 8 months pursuit in the third year of LE, I pointed out to him in writing he could not give me what I wanted for a substantial friend, and tried to back up; but he pushed in with many emails…
“Well, maybe your LE was ultimately a good thing. Some real growth and healing came out of it. “
I am positive it is❗️(I’ve been saying this since I came here). I deem it perhaps 80-90% positive, 20-10% negative. I just see the pains I went through as the price for my healing and growth — no pain, no gain!
I wrote another appendix this morning telling you about how such healing actually took place, but I no longer want to post it here. It’s enough for me to know and appreciate it privately. After all, I have a beneficial LO.
“I’d say it’s unmet needs. There are posters on here, Dr. L included, who had good childhoods and are in happy relationships. So it’s not unmet childhood needs for everyone. But I’d say a good number of limerents do have childhood trauma. I have no idea how many.”
I’m aware DrL’s case and other claims that their childhood is “perfect”. But I think their type of cases are in minority, because simply there is NO perfect childhood on this earth!
[“I knew the sensation but could not tell what I just felt in that 5 seconds.” But you knew you were attracted, right?]
To be honest, I really did not know what I felt, beside feeling this clear click in my head. But I guess the word “attraction” could capture those moments. Most of LO had the similar aura — slim, feminine, sensitive, soft/gentle/sweet, educated, modest…. Far, far away from Johnny Depp type or Butler of GWW.
“I do think that people need catharsis and emotional release. So I don’t think crying is a weakness. “
As a teenager, I cried for so many characters in my books; but Mom and Dad often mocked at me. Later, I trained myself not to cry as much. I personally never thought crying as a weakness; I said before that I would not date a guy who could not cry in front of me… I instinctively distrust tearless men!
“I understand what you’re saying. I wanted those things, too, I just didn’t necessarily expect them all from a romantic relationship. “
When little, I wanted to have a sibling so badly and dreamt that she or he would give me all these connections. But Mom hated kids (I was out of her bet with Granny), and aborted three after me.
“Was your grandmother your father’s mother?
Yes. Granny was. My maternal grandmother had 9 children and 18 grandchildren, so I was not close to her.
” You mean that you would contact your LO again? Please don’t! You’ve made such great progress. “
I could. But my fingers don’t feel itchy nowadays. The problem is that now I’m out of LE, so ET appears as a “normalized” /realistic friend, out of LO box. The challenge might be what I’d do if he contacts me⁉️ It’s most unlikely, except exchanging holiday greetings.
“That’s good, then. That you had to go NC. (although of course not good for the loss of the job)”
For me, the only solution would be a forced NC. Normally, unless an experience was really negative, I didn’t and couldn’t trash it. With all the gains in my LE, how could I go NC with a beneficiary LO⁉️ The new work place is quite gray compared to the old one… It’s more colorful in LwL❗️🤭 😂
“Did you interview your grandma for the writing project?
Not particularly. Just chitchats and asking about her personal history. Knowing one day she would not be around, I recorded all what she told me. I was fond of her who had so much more positive impact on my growing.
“I’m learning to be less expectant. I think part of me has always wanted a BFF like I had when I was younger (teens, 20s). I don’t think that’s realistic for adult friendship.”
What’s BFF? — boyfriend friend?
“Sometimes they can need to be entertained, which I would find draining. But I need someone to kind of pull me out of myself. “
If it’s a right person, I’d gain/give extra energy to entertain him. I did not want anyone to “pull me out of myself” — a kind of wish to be “saved”, but “pull him out of himself” if he can’t be on the same page with me. Despite being introvert, I’m an adventurous type with almost insatiable curiosity; I want to explore unknowns whether it’s in nature, in culture and in people of all sorts.
“So you can be direct in friendship and romance?”
In a close friendship, you can be very direct up to the point of blunt criticism for the benefits of your friends, that’s considered true caring. Courtesy or politeness can be taken as “distance/indifference in a close friendship.
In romance, it’s not so easy to be direct, especially in the early stage. But after marriage, it seems a lot of courtesy and politeness are abandoned, too much in COO. I don’t like to see “sloppy” attitudes or treatments of each other in couples, a kind of uncouth in my eyes. One should never take anything or anyone for granted, especially one’s 🅱️🅿️.
Marcia,
“I’ve sometimes felt I created a character when I interacted with men. I’m not sure any other way to put that.”
Is the ‘character’ just the idealised version of who you/your limerence wants him to be, versus the real flawed version of the person in front of you?
LaR,
“Is the ‘character’ just the idealised version of who you/your limerence wants him to be, versus the real flawed version of the person in front of you?”
No, I’m the one playing a role. Someone I’ve created with hair and makeup and specific clothes along with some of kind of persona I’m attempting to mimic from Old Hollywood movies and modern pop stars.
Marcia,
“I’m the one playing a role. Someone I’ve created with hair and makeup and specific clothes along with some of kind of persona I’m attempting to mimic from Old Hollywood movies and modern pop stars.”
It’s different between us here. I want to be more of myself in close relations, because cultural and political reasons, we could not be ourselves in COO. We were oppressed, repressed, and brainwashed by Big Brother to be docile/sheepish “citizens”…
I feel liberated and light inside by being myself, evolving self that is. I rarely stand in the same water for two minutes…
@Marcia.
I just wanted to say … I’ve noticed the kindness you often show other LwL readers as well. 😉
I also wanted to say you give really good advice … good advice for an INFP, that is. 😁
I can’t lie. I’m really fascinated by your ability to make observations or offer insights in ten words or less. Maybe someday (but not today) you could teach me that skill? Do you compose all your responses on the back of envelops or something? 🤣🤣🤣
Never know when I might want to hoodwink a prospective employer into believing I’m not **cough, cough** “verbose”. 😇
You know I think you’re cool, right? And when I say cool, I mean “extremely emotionally intelligent, but not in the slightest bit sensible”. Although you seem to grow more sensible as time progresses and as one gets to know you better. Have you been copying Limerent Emeritus in a desperate attempt to fit in? If so, I think you need to add a few more Maths equations to your answers. Go on now – take a walk on the not-so-wild side. 😜
Oh, by the way, you were wrong about me, my dear. I am neither “kind” nor “erudite”. But I am … well … I am just the way that I am. Impossible.
Unknowable. Adorable. Verbose. 100kg + of human catnip. 🙂
Did I mention my favourite perfume is “Delude Yourself” from House of Monsoon, a fragrance you may have seen first publicised on Season Five of “RuPaul’s Drag Race”? (Delude yourself into believing you’ve still got it. whatever “it” is. Never coming to a department store near you). 🤣🙄🤔😲
@Marcia.
Sorry. Butchered that last bit. My favourite perfume is actually called “Delusion”. The sales pitch is: “Convince Yourself!” (Convince yourself that you still look hot in a bathing suit?) 🙄🤣😁
It’s apparently the fragrance du jour for “the girl who lives above her means”. Sounds a tad pricey, if you ask me. Interested? 🤣😇😜
Jinxx Monsoon won Season Five of Rupaul’s Drag Race. What a legend! She also won an all-stars season of the show. (All Stars 7). 🙂
Incidentally, do you like my new pithy writing style, or does it reek of desperation? I wouldn’t want to come across as desperate. I think our mutual friend MJ said he had first dibs on the word “desperate”. 🙂
“Desperation.” Hm. I’m getting ideas for my own line of perfumes… 😉
Desperation could be the fragrance du jour for the man who is “down but not out” in the dating game and determined to stage a respectable comeback. 😆
Sammy,
“I just wanted to say … I’ve noticed the kindness you often show other LwL readers as well. 😉”
I think you’re the only one who’s noticed the kindness, so I don’t know what you mean by “as well.” 🙂
“I also wanted to say you give really good advice … good advice for an INFP, that is. 😁”
Better than the cold, clinical, test tube advice from an INFJ! We INFPs are empathetic. 🙂
” I’m really fascinated by your ability to make observations or offer insights in ten words or less. Maybe someday (but not today) you could teach me that skill?”
I don’t have that kind of time left on the planet. 🙂
“Do you compose all your responses on the back of envelops or something? 🤣🤣🤣”
Post-It Notes. 🙂
“You know I think you’re cool, right? And when I say cool, I mean “extremely emotionally intelligent, but not in the slightest bit sensible”.”
Ha! I kind of agree.
“Have you been copying Limerent Emeritus in a desperate attempt to fit in?”
No. I do not possess the ability to recall entire conversations and exact details. Even from stuff that happened yesterday. 🙂
“Oh, by the way, you were wrong about me, my dear. I am neither “kind” nor “erudite”. But I am … well … I am just the way that I am. Impossible.”
I don’t recall EVER calling you kind. Erudite, maybe. 🙂
“Unknowable. Adorable. Verbose. 100kg + of human catnip.”
Let us know if you need some help with your self-esteem. 🙂
“My favourite perfume is actually called “Delusion”. The sales pitch is: “Convince Yourself!” (Convince yourself that you still look hot in bathing suit?) 🙄🤣😁
“It’s apparently the fragrance du jour for “the girl who lives above her means”. Sounds a tad pricey, if you ask me. Interested? 🤣😇😜”
Are you suggesting, dear sir, that I don’t look good in a bathing suit? Or is the question: Does my butt look big in these pants? Oh, and I suppose it would look smaller WITHOUT the pants! 🙂
“Desperation could be the fragrance du jour for the man who is “down but not out” in the dating game and determined to stage a respectable comeback. 😆”
I’m convinced MJ is not out. Really. 🙂 He’s not done yet!
I am baffled you like the song “Don’t Cha.” This is NOT erudite, my friend. It’s such a horrible song. One of the worst ever recorded.
Now, apparently she’s starring in a revival of … wait for it … Sunset Boulevard (the musical) on Broadway … and plays Norma Desmond … and has been nominated for a Tony Award. So maybe she has some actual skill. But it is NOT evident in the song “Don’t Cha.”
I am with Marcia on two things
Tf did I listen to? (Also a perfect example of why I don’t watch music videos.)
Yes, MJ is by far “done”.
“I’m convinced MJ is not out. Really. 🙂 He’s not done yet!”
Yes @Everyone,
Stay tuned for details..
😆
Snow,
“Only my EA-ignorant pumpkin head did not get it!”
You didn’t get a clue when he asked, “Is this an affair?” 🙂
“Whether the Phantom or “character”, it shows that the limerent (or a dating?) mind, by definition, fantasizes LO/LE, seeing things that are not there, unrealistic.”
True. Limerence is a one-way ticket to Fantasy Town! 🙂
“I agree with you here. I think “fall in lust” defines Glimmer, not in limerence yet.”
I wonder how long it takes for the glimmer to crystallize into limerence.
“Yes. But as you talked with 👻 here, it’s a huge challenge to transfer “in love” to “love”, — transfer/extend Eros + Mania love to combine with other 6 types of love (Philia, Ludus, Agape, Pragma, Philautia, Storge). I think it’s possible after PA and EA are reciprocated in harmony stage.”
I think it’s possible but I don’t think it’s in any way a guarantee. Infatuation, being “in love,” does not mean the other 6 types of love will show up later on. It’s kind of the age-old dilemma of chemistry versus compatibility.
“It’s a Stoic mind combined with Buddhistic way — giving without expecting to receive anything in return. ”
I’m working on that.
“But I had bouts of resentment or regrets here or there against him and myself. Then my T-mind, habit to appreciate/cherish the bright side of a coin, and Stoic and physical meditations would help dissipate those mild resentments and regrets soon (never longer than a day or two).”
What kind of meditations do you do? I ask because I’m having a lot of anxiety lately.
“I don’t have social goals, I’m already used to be a lone-wolf, or an odd ball, although I do wish to have a long-term compatible companion/partner.”
I’m definitely an odd ball as well. I just think it’s important to have some kind of support group.
“Low expectations?”
I meant from people. From relationships. From whatever kind they are.
“I’m 🤔: if the clam opens its shell on its own, what am I going to do with its meat? ”
You’re going to go to town on it. Sorry. Couldn’t help myself. 🙂
“Sis, you’ve got to slow down confirming my positive suspicions about ET; otherwise, I’m going to 😭 😭 for the forced NC, possibly for eternity….”
Lol. Well, he definitely had some sketch in his behavior. Asking about a PA. Showing up with the affair partner. But I don’t think things are always black and white. Yes, there was some sketch, but that doesn’t mean it also can’t co-exist with a genuine friendship, which I think there was.
“I don’t want another unavailable LO again, but a 🅱️🅿️. ”
I totally get that.
“Who can think about having PA with a red-cloaked bishop⁉️”
I don’t know what that means. 🙂
“But he’s respectful, never too obvious or pushy in what he had wished, only subtly suggested several times, even a year after that pet appeared and stayed in the scene.”
So he was still suggesting a PA even after it was obvious he was having an affair with another woman? That would really turn me off.
“When he began that 8 months pursuit in the third year of LE, I pointed out to him in writing he could not give me what I wanted for a substantial friend, and tried to back up; but he pushed in with many emails…”
I think this is a fairly common dynamic with in an LE if there is at least one person who is unavailable. The push-pull dynamic. What do both people want? What are we doing here?
“I just see the pains I went through as the price for my healing and growth — no pain, no gain!”
That’s true. We have to suffer to learn something.
I definitely learned something in my last LE. Confronted some of my “stuff.” I won’t say it was “fun.” 🙂
“But I think their type of cases are in minority, because simply there is NO perfect childhood on this earth!”
That’s true. But I think there are people who don’t have much childhood trauma and/or have essentially good relationships with their SOs … and still become limerent.
” Far, far away from Johnny Depp type or Butler of GWW.”
I don’t know if I think of Johnny Depp as comparable to Clark Gable in terms of masculinity. Depp is, after all, wearing eyeliner in the Pirates movies. He’s like a petulant, slightly androgynous rock star! But that’s kind of redundant. Aren’t they all? 🙂
“As a teenager, I cried for so many characters in my books; but Mom and Dad often mocked at me.”
I’m sorry. That’s not good.
“I said before that I would not date a guy who could not cry in front of me… I instinctively distrust tearless men!”
I don’t know how I feel about that. Someone who can express himself on an emotional level, definitely.
” But Mom hated kids (I was out of her bet with Granny), and aborted three after me.”
Odd that she became a mother if she didn’t like kids.
“Yes. Granny was. My maternal grandmother had 9 children and 18 grandchildren, so I was not close to her.”
That is a big family! 🙂
“The problem is that now I’m out of LE, so ET appears as a “normalized” /realistic friend, out of LO box. The challenge might be what I’d do if he contacts me⁉️ It’s most unlikely, except exchanging holiday greetings.”
Do you think you could be friends now? I don’t know if we have a case of that on here. An LE, forced NC, and then a friendship afterward. I’m not saying it couldn’t happen. But I do think, to get over the limerence, the limerent has to think their relationship with the LO is over. Really done. True NC. At least for a period of time. It can’t be NC … but still expecting to contact the LO in the future. There has to be a finality to it.
” With all the gains in my LE, how could I go NC with a beneficiary LO⁉️ The new work place is quite gray compared to the old one… It’s more colorful in LwL❗️🤭 😂”
Because having an LO can block our energy and prevent us from meeting an available person.
“Not particularly. Just chitchats and asking about her personal history.”
Ok. So she was open about herself it sounds like.
“What’s BFF? — boyfriend friend?”
Best friend forever.
“I did not want anyone to “pull me out of myself” ”
I meant that I’m introverted and it’s sometimes good for me to be around someone who pushes me to leave the house a little. 🙂
“In a close friendship, you can be very direct up to the point of blunt criticism for the benefits of your friends, that’s considered true caring. Courtesy or politeness can be taken as “distance/indifference in a close friendship.”
That’s interesting. That’s what I would look for in a BFF. Someone who will tell me the truth. They don’t have to lacerate me with it, but don’t blow smoke up my butt. 🙂
“But after marriage, it seems a lot of courtesy and politeness are abandoned, too much in COO … One should never take anything or anyone for granted, especially one’s 🅱️🅿️.”
It’s because they don’t think the other person will ever leave. So they treat them like a family member.
Marcia,
“You didn’t get a clue when he asked, “Is this an affair?” 🙂”
No, I did NOT. For the third time on a public record, I tell you this is what I clearly remembered: 1. I thought, ‘what a question, I’ve never touched your fingers, how could it be an affair?! 2. I hesitantly answered with puzzlement, “No, I don’t think so.”
“I wonder how long it takes for the glimmer to crystallize into limerence.”
It really depends on individuals. I only got to know who ET officially is four month after the glimmer, then another 4 months (one month after Dad’s sudden death) to feel he’s getting into my mind more and staying in longer… but still not crystallized until perhaps Mom arrived a year later?
“I think it’s possible but I don’t think it’s in any way a guarantee. Infatuation, being “in love,” does not mean the other 6 types of love will show up later on. It’s kind of the age-old dilemma of chemistry versus compatibility.”
You’re right, there is no guarantee, it depends on both parties’ compatibility and shared efforts. Tango can’t even be practiced alone.
“What kind of meditations do you do? I ask because I’m having a lot of anxiety lately.”
Vipassana, the simplest but hardest. Trust me, you can’t learn it on your own, try one full 10-day retreat where you could learn and get used to basic skills. https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/locations/directory#US.
It’s tuition is donation based — $1–$1m, as you wish.
“I’m definitely an odd ball as well. I just think it’s important to have some kind of support group.”
I tried some groups thingy in the past, none worked for/supported my needs. Coming out of COO, I have an allege to group mentality. But LwL is exceptional, I’ve got much more support and other stuff more than I could have ever expected! I only bumped here to find some information about LE and thought I’d leave once finish reading all DrL’s old blogs. Now, I seemed to be addicted to this place — an invisible, collective TO with multiple and hidden colors… 😃
[“Low expectations?
I meant from people. From relationships. From whatever kind they are.]
That’s exactly what I meant, and much more. Growing in COO, one did/does not dare to expect much, fearing only disappointments would wait in the end…
“Lol. Well, he definitely had some sketch in his behavior. Asking about a PA. Showing up with the affair partner.”
For the last time on the record: he never shew up with the Pet LO, I only accidentally saw once him glimmering at her, as I told you last year. But I had my ways of knowing the truth without stalking (I can’t drive). In truth, I don’t know what he did on those regular rendezvouses… Avoiding upsetting me and still keeping my LE affection around, he had to “lie” to me about it in several occasions, which I hated, which led to my two NCs to his face. I wished he could simply tell me, “Sorry, I’ve met someone…” than at least I’d consider myself as his friend. His behavior was extremely discreet…
“ But I don’t think things are always black and white. Yes, there was some sketch, but that doesn’t mean it also can’t co-exist with a genuine friendship, which I think there was.”
Perhaps genuine but not enough by my standards, which is high. I tried to lower down my level, but LE got in the way. I was deeply sad, disappointed and despaired in the last 2.5 years but pretended not be on the surface.
“Who can think about having PA with a red-cloaked bishop⁉️”
“I don’t know what that means. 🙂”
Meaning at one point very early on, I envisioned him as a red-clacked Bishop listening to my monologue “confesses” without judgment or telling others.
“I think this is a fairly common dynamic with in an LE if there is at least one person who is unavailable. The push-pull dynamic. What do both people want? What are we doing here?”
I certainly had no idea what was happening to/in me and could not even raise your two questions here. Once I realized I could not get my desired friendship and experienced unexpected benefits from therapeutic monologues, I remember clearly, I decided to continue my monologuing, which lead to a gradual healing of my cptsd, unexpectedly.
“I definitely learned something in my last LE. Confronted some of my “stuff.” I won’t say it was “fun.” 🙂”
So what have you learned? Did you work out your “stuff”? Working on one’s “stuff” is never fun, which I know too well…
“That’s true. But I think there are people who don’t have much childhood trauma and/or have essentially good relationships with their SOs … and still become limerent.”
Maybe our pair-bonding drive is just not designed to be monogamous? Perhaps monotony of even a good relationship could be broken by a sudden Glimmer?
”I don’t know if I think of Johnny Depp as comparable to Clark Gable in terms of masculinity. Depp is, after all, wearing eyeliner in the Pirates movies. He’s like a petulant, slightly androgynous rock star! But that’s kind of redundant. Aren’t they all? 🙂”
I was saying that both men are two masculine for me, although in different styles and eras. I cannot stand “petulance” in both men and women. I’m not familiar with the rock genre, but like the early soft ones, like Beatles. By the way, we seem to have a similar (dis)taste in music/musician (ones appeared in LwL).
“I said before that I would not date a guy who could not cry in front of me… I instinctively distrust tearless men!”
I don’t know how I feel about that. Someone who can express himself on an emotional level, definitely.”
I don’t mean they “water-fall” like MJ 💦 🪣 😭. Wet eyes when being touched would do. Verbal Expression ALONE is not enough for me. One cannot fake emotions with body sensations, but can with words masterfully.
“Do you think you could be friends now? I don’t know if we have a case of that on here. An LE, forced NC, and then a friendship afterward.”
I know I CAN now on an intellectual level, but it’s too soon to tell how I’d feel on the visceral level. I also don’t know how ET ever felt about/for me before and how he’s feeling now regard my existence. I’d love to have a real friendship after LE, but can’t see its plausibility.
“I’m not saying it couldn’t happen. But I do think, to get over the limerence, the limerent has to think their relationship with the LO is over. Really done. True NC. At least for a period of time.”
I could not say it was over before April, because of the clear ember and that vague, lifetime longing. Then both ember and longing were dramatically gone, like a switch was flipped literally. Something in the brain immediately felt being released….
“… but still expecting to contact the LO in the future. There has to be a finality to it.”
I don’t expect to contact. But if it’s possible to have a friendship after LE, as you say, then without contact, how such a friendship could ever launch? Beside one’s internal mind and its activities, how can you tell a friendship without any LE or with a bit residual LE?
”Because having an LO can block our energy and prevent us from meeting an available person.”
Totally agree with you here. In my case, it was NOT ET himself, but my own residual emotions about him still had emotional charge/color. Now, it’s neutral. But this past week after reviewing LE with you, it got tipped over to the positive side. So I really need to get off this topic.
“What’s BFF? — boyfriend friend?”
Best friend forever.
It’s easier during our “innocent” childhood or youth. Once maturity kicks in all levels, the mind can’t stop “calculating” making BFF extremely difficult but still possible. I believe with certain amount of compatibility and conscious effort, it’s still have 5-10%, perhaps?
“I meant that I’m introverted and it’s sometimes good for me to be around someone who pushes me to leave the house a little. 🙂”
The same here. I’m very homey nowadays, but so busy — have no time to even watch my waiting movies/mini series.
“That’s interesting. That’s what I would look for in a BFF. Someone who will tell me the truth. They don’t have to lacerate me with it, but don’t blow smoke up my butt. 🙂”
Then, we are at the same page about a true friendship. My non-glimmered friends can never be “promoted/shifted” into the “LE file” in the mind.
“It’s because they don’t think the other person will ever leave. So they treat them like a family member.”
Such an attitude or treatment of one’s 🅱️🅿️ is so unwise…
Snow,
“No, I did NOT. For the third time on a public record, I tell you this is what I clearly remembered”
I’ve been on this blog, on and off, for 5 years. So I’ve read a lot of peoples’ stories and the specific details are sometimes hard to remember with all the different stories. I usually remember the big picture stuff but it’s too much to remember all the nitty gritty details.
“It really depends on individuals. I only got to know who ET officially is four month after the glimmer, then another 4 months (one month after Dad’s sudden death) to feel he’s getting into my mind more and staying in longer… but still not crystallized until perhaps Mom arrived a year later?”
Oh, ok. I was definitely into my LO right away and thinking about him quite a bit. Seeing him for the first time was like one of those romantic moments in a film … time stopped for a few seconds. Not that it amounted to anything.
“it depends on both parties’ compatibility and shared efforts. Tango can’t even be practiced alone.”
I agree, but sometimes two people just aren’t compatible. Personality-wise. Life goal-wise. Value-wise, etc.
“Vipassana, the simplest but hardest. Trust me, you can’t learn it on your own, try one full 10-day retreat where you could learn and get used to basic skills. https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/locations/directory#US.
It’s tuition is donation based — $1–$1m, as you wish.”
Thanks for the link. I’ll look into it.
“But LwL is exceptional, I’ve got much more support and other stuff more than I could have ever expected!”
I think it’s a good community but totally different than having a friend you can call up and say, “I had a really crappy day. Do you have time for a phone call?”
“I only bumped here to find some information about LE and thought I’d leave once finish reading all DrL’s old blogs. Now, I seemed to be addicted to this place ”
It is addictive.
“That’s exactly what I meant, and much more. ”
It’s very hard to do. It’s very hard to start dating someone or start to befriend someone and have no expectations.
“For the last time on the record: he never shew up with the Pet LO”
See above.
“Avoiding upsetting me and still keeping my LE affection around, he had to “lie” to me about it in several occasions, which I hated, which led to my two NCs to his face. I wished he could simply tell me, “Sorry, I’ve met someone…” than at least I’d consider myself as his friend. His behavior was extremely discreet…”
I’m guessing he didn’t say “Sorry, I’ve met someone” because he still wanted your attention and/or wanted to keep the door open with you.
“Perhaps genuine but not enough by my standards, which is high. ”
See? Your expectations are high for romance. 🙂
“I tried to lower down my level, but LE got in the way. I was deeply sad, disappointed and despaired in the last 2.5 years but pretended not be on the surface.”
Exactly. Once feelings are involved … it’ s hard to not have expectations.
“So what have you learned?”
I know what limerence is, I know it’s my pattern, I understand more why it’s tied to my childhood, I know what I did wrong in terms of taking the wrong person (my LO, or even limerent feelings, for that matter) far too seriously. I know what triggers me and I know I can walk away.
“Did you work out your “stuff”?”
No. So I haven’t written about this yet but … this guy I’ve been sweating for a while … disclosed. Of course, he’s not available. You didn’t think he would be, did you? 🙂 It’s caused me a tremendous amount of anxiety. Knots in my stomach. Can’t sleep.
So all my “stuff” is still there. I’m just much more aware of it.
{“That’s true. But I think there are people who don’t have much childhood trauma and/or have essentially good relationships with their SOs … and still become limerent.”}
“Maybe our pair-bonding drive is just not designed to be monogamous? Perhaps monotony of even a good relationship could be broken by a sudden Glimmer?”
Well, I think limerence is still a sign of the limerent’s unmet needs. But not always based on childhood trauma or problems with an SO.
I hope a good relationship can’t be broken by a sudden glimmer. What if one’s SO glimmers a lot? I think crushes and attractions are common, but they shouldn’t rise to the level of causing one deep, personal angst, which of course limerence does.
“I was saying that both men are two masculine for me, although in different styles and eras.”
Ah, I see. I don’t think of Johnny Depp as being super masculine. He’s actually kind of arty/quirky.
“I cannot stand “petulance” in both men and women.”
It was more the character he’s playing.
“I’m not familiar with the rock genre, but like the early soft ones, like Beatles. By the way, we seem to have a similar (dis)taste in music/musician (ones appeared in LwL).”
I actually like rock. And pop and soul and funk. But that particular song … the lyrics are: Don’t cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
It’s distasteful.
“I don’t mean they “water-fall” like MJ 💦 🪣 😭. Wet eyes when being touched would do. Verbal Expression ALONE is not enough for me.”
Well, to be fair, a lot of men aren’t particularly expressive. So verbal expression is still a lot.
“I could not say it was over before April, because of the clear ember and that vague, lifetime longing. Then both ember and longing were dramatically gone, like a switch was flipped literally. Something in the brain immediately felt being released….”
That’s a great place to be.
“I don’t expect to contact. But if it’s possible to have a friendship after LE, as you say, then without contact, how such a friendship could ever launch?”
Oh, Idk. You run into each other years later. You and your former LO are in the same profession. You … run into each other at a conference.
“Beside one’s internal mind and its activities, how can you tell a friendship without any LE or with a bit residual LE?”
That would have to be a limerent being honest with themselves. Do they still have some feelings?
“But this past week after reviewing LE with you, it got tipped over to the positive side. So I really need to get off this topic.”
Ok.
“It’s easier during our “innocent” childhood or youth. Once maturity kicks in all levels, the mind can’t stop calculating” making BFF extremely difficult but still possible. ”
I’d say it’s more that people don’t have time for it or prioritize it.
“I believe with certain amount of compatibility and conscious effort, it’s still have 5-10%, perhaps?”
I mean … maybe for a while … until a life change happens for one of the people involved and the friendship drastically changes. It’s just life.
“The same here. I’m very homey nowadays, but so busy — have no time to even watch my waiting movies/mini series.”
I have actually signed up for a bunch of social stuff. Asked a new friend out to lunch. I have to get my thoughts off this guy.
“Then, we are at the same page about a true friendship. My non-glimmered friends can never be “promoted/shifted” into the “LE file” in the mind.”
With a very close friend, there’s usually love there, but it’s not romantic.
Marcia 😎 🍫,
“the specific details are sometimes hard to remember with all the different stories. I usually remember the big picture stuff but it’s too much to remember all the nitty gritty details.”
Oh, don’t worry, I’m not upset with you at all, considering how many posters you’re responding with caring advice. I’m just aware that not only your 👂 is up to my stories, but also other 👂 👂 possibly with poor memories or a confused mind… 😊
“Oh, ok. I was definitely into my LO right away and thinking about him quite a bit. Seeing him for the first time was like one of those romantic moments in a film … time stopped for a few seconds. Not that it amounted to anything.”
Is this LO the same guy you are trying to forget? (At end of this post), or someone new? May I ask, how long were in your last, biggest LE?
“I agree, but sometimes two people just aren’t compatible. Personality-wise. Life goal-wise. Value-wise, etc.”
Yep, like me with LO5 from a dating app. We both tried to get along, but simply incompatible despite we’re both book-lovers, working in the same fields, and write purple proses and lyrics…
“I think it’s a good community but totally different than having a friend you can call up and say, “I had a really crappy day. Do you have time for a phone call?”
I did not feel it as a community for a while (but the distraction from my ongoing LE7 back then), but gradually grew into it, perhaps after I came back from COO and had that breakthrough dream on 7/7. Actually, I never was in any community in my whole life, in which I could express so much of thoughts in writing. Thanks to its anonymity.
Writing itself, regardless audience, is a powerful therapeutic means. But I also 🆎 agree with you on its limitation, I just can’t have a cup of coffee/tea or walk with my 👻 pals here, darn it! Our fives senses really need to be fed while interacting with others, in whatever kind of connections.
“It is addictive.”
You know why, while we don’t feel addictive with our normal friends? We’re talking about our deepest emotional desires, confused/addictive mind, and some soul here, unlike most realistic, laidback f2f chitchats. I also found oral language is quite different from thoughtful writing, which involves a lot (self) reflections and mental meditations. Two communication forms should co-exist simultaneously compensating each other.
“It’s very hard to do. It’s very hard to start dating someone or start to befriend someone and have no expectations.”
I heard from a Stoic YouTuber that a real Stoic can only date Stoic, which made me laugh — No side takes an initiative, no side expects, but only smartly prepares for the worst to strike all the time… 🤭 I wonder how on earth us limerents could become a good Stoic, our brain neurons might be even wired differently from good Stoic.
“I’m guessing he didn’t say “Sorry, I’ve met someone” because he still wanted your attention and/or wanted to keep the door open with you.”
Precisely! and I had to pretend that I did not know his secret (did hint very indirectly to him that I knew), so as not to embarrass /save face for him — who wanted to and did wear a “flawless morality” mask to the end.
“See? Your expectations are high for romance. 🙂”
It is not EXPECTATION, but criteria that are necessary for a poetical, workable relationship. I’d strive my best for its success, but cannot EXPECT my and other side’s effort would definitely make it work out and last. I dislike anything short term, never really into novelty, which often brought me (personally) more anxiety, instability than excitement and exhilaration; the latter two always died down soon, but the formal two lasted long… 🙄
“Exactly. Once feelings are involved … it’ s hard to not have expectations.”
“Feelings involved” is not a main “enemy”, but WHAT one EXPECTS to GET out from those feelings and the accompanying actions/efforts. Can one strive best to built a loving connection but still EXPECT a possible failure. Think of farmers planting their corps, with unpredictable disastrous storms/hurricanes , then a poor harvest. Then they try again for the next year.
“I know what limerence is, I know it’s my pattern, I understand more why it’s tied to my childhood, I know what I did wrong in terms of taking the wrong person (my LO, or even limerent feelings, for that matter) far too seriously. I know what triggers me and I know I can walk away.”
That’s a huge amount of your learning! Congratulations!
Only my LE7 could be considered a real LE in my cases, since it’s only one 🆎 unavailable. I also learned how my old cptsd was tied to this LE and how it also affected the older relationships. The lucky part is that I have healed the cptsd wounds unexpectedly, through my own effort with the assistance of the LO.
Did you notice that I used “unexpected” a lot in my posts to you, to indicate why lower/none expectations actually often produced surprising power.
“Did you work out your “stuff”?”
No. So I haven’t written about this yet but … this guy I’ve been sweating for a while … disclosed. Of course, he’s not available. You didn’t think he would be, did you? 🙂 It’s caused me a tremendous amount of anxiety. Knots in my stomach. Can’t sleep.”
You mean right now? A different, unavailable LO? Or, poor Sis! how did you get into another one this time after the last big LE?
“So all my “stuff” is still there. I’m just much more aware of it.”
Are you seeing a shrink? Can you take 11 day vacation time for a Vipassana retreat? It takes 6 months to reserve a spot anywhere in the US centers. So please check its schedule out early and plan it early if you’re interested in it…. I suffered a great deal LE pains right after LE4.5 (long distance LO), so took my first Vipassana retreat, it really, really, really helped!
“Well, I think limerence is still a sign of the limerent’s unmet needs. But not always based on childhood trauma or problems with an SO.”
That’s very possible, I haven’t thought about it.
“I hope a good relationship can’t be broken by a sudden glimmer.”
Glimmer comes and goes, not so dangerous as LE.
“What if one’s SO glimmers a lot? I think crushes and attractions are common, but they shouldn’t rise to the level of causing one deep, personal angst, which of course limerence does.”
Totally agree with you, but here comes to another area to practice Stoic — SO and his/her glimmers are outside of one’s control, so what are we going to do? To weave and grow other 6 types of love into the relationship with the SO? If you have a SO and a Glimmer suddenly strikes, do you want to inform your beloved SO?
“I don’t think of Johnny Depp as being super masculine. He’s actually kind of arty/quirky.”
He does not have the kind of sophistication my glimmer would land on, even when he was young.
“I actually like rock. And pop and soul and funk. But that particular song … the lyrics are: Don’t cha wish your girlfriend was hot like me?
It’s distasteful.”
Not just this one, but some musicians you commented on last year.
I like a lot pop, some rock, a bit of soul, classical, and Italian operatic arias. For my easily-fired sensory system — easily get overwhelmed or agitated, I can’t stay in a busy environment for long and can’t have any background music when I’m reading, writing, grading homework, etc.
“Well, to be fair, a lot of men aren’t particularly expressive. So verbal expression is still a lot.
I don’t care about a lot of men, ONE at a time would be enough; and if unfortunately Zero in romance, then c’est la vie. Touching verbal expression of emotions is really bool and can be “seductive”, but can they drive author’ own tears? I will have to check whether a man can shit his 💦 or 💧, a particular criteria of my own… blaming LO1, 4, 5…
“That’s a great place to be.”
Unbelievably liberating! I got high and felt so light, even physically. For the first time in nearly 8 years, I knew what it FELT like without any LE “weight” and that mysterious Longing from childhood!
“Oh, Idk. You run into each other years later. You and your former LO are in the same profession. You … run into each other at a conference.”
I’m still in HE environment part-time, but he downgraded to HS prep full-time in another state. NO chance for conference or bump into each other in town.
“That would have to be a limerent being honest with themselves. Do they still have some feelings?”
I’m very honest with myself, and constantly checking my mental and emotional states. I just can’t foresee that friendship without LE and friendship with a good memory of LE could ever be the same, especially when NC is forced, not by choice or hard work. Hypothetically, if xLO suddenly appears in my vicinity, I doubt that my LE would NOT be somehow rekindled. It’s easy when he’s out of sight completely!
“I’d say it’s more that people don’t have time for it or prioritize it.”
True, especially in the West. In COO by traditions, people still give some time to BFF and would drop anything off to help BFF should it needed. The other side does the same.
“I mean … maybe for a while … until a life change happens for one of the people involved and the friendship drastically changes. It’s just life.”
Then, I’d say only 1% of chance such BFF is possible in big cities, where everyone seems to be on the go/run. And it takes place mostly between singles—to singles.
“I have actually signed up for a bunch of social stuff. Asked a new friend out to lunch. I have to get my thoughts off this guy.”
I hope it would help. But such distraction sometimes has its limited function. I occasionally go out for lunch or home visit with my lady friends from the previous job.
“With a very close friend, there’s usually love there, but it’s not romantic.”
Yes, it’s deep LOVE without Eros and Mania.
I enjoy watching your dashing, smashing stage shows with other LwL singletons, sidelined by a couple of partnered dudes 😆! Keep 💪 & 💞, INFP Sis! 🎤 💃 🎶
Marcia,
I have to edit this paragraph, it’s totally inaccurate interpretation of Stoic practice —
“I heard from a Stoic YouTuber that a real Stoic can only date Stoic — Both sides initiate, take and give actions, without or with little expectations, and smartly prepares for the worst to strike all the time…
I’m trying to think of an example here —
A Scenario: A dating couple prepared for a weekend dinner and a romantic evening.
The mutual romantic desires: they want the whole evening to work out according to their plans and hope for a hot night.
NO expectations: without FIXING their mind on specific outcomes, but plan to enjoy every bit of the whole evening.
Mental preparation: a. one side suddenly feels physically ill due to food allergy; b. one side feels upset triggered by bumping into an old flame on the street, c: one side gets a family emergency call for help; d. Something unexpected….
The worst result: the whole evening plan will have to be aborted; but they have mentally prepared for it, thus not so upset.
The best result: nothing (un)expected happens, their evening precedes as they have planned. Bingo!
Do you think this Stoic approach for a romantic activity is possible?
Marcia,
“A Scenario: A dating couple prepared for a weekend dinner and a romantic evening.
The mutual romantic desires: they want the whole evening to work out according to their plans and hope for a hot night.
NO expectations: without FIXING their mind on specific outcomes, but plan to enjoy every bit of the whole evening.
Mental preparation: a. one side suddenly feels physically ill due to food allergy; b. one side feels upset triggered by bumping into an old flame on the street, c: one side gets a family emergency call for help; d. Something unexpected….
The worst result: the whole evening plan will have to be aborted; but they have mentally prepared for it, thus not so upset.
The best result: nothing (un)expected happens, their evening precedes as they have planned. Bingo!
Do you think this Stoic approach for a romantic activity is possible?”
Yes. I guess I was thinking more like … you meet some guy, he gets your number, and you’re checking your phone every 2 seconds to see if he’s called. I mean, you can stop yourself from the actual behavior of checking your phone but how do you stop the obsessing? Does the Stoic approach help with that?
Snow,
The above message is for you. I’m not sure why I posted it to myself. 🙂
Marcia,
“I guess I was thinking more like … you meet some guy, he gets your number, and you’re checking your phone every 2 seconds to see if he’s called. I mean, you can stop yourself from the actual behavior of checking your phone but how do you stop the obsessing? Does the Stoic approach help with that?”
A physics law: the more you push an object/thought, the more it resists and pushes back (feel like)!
The forceful stop an obsession would increase a mental resistance and even increase the degree of the obsession.
Stoic may not help this case that much, since the uncontrollable here is your inner thought, not an external factor. But Vipassana meditation could possibly help. I’ll attempt here to give you two possible approaches —
****
1. Vipassana meditation: Watch your anxiety and obsessive thought (shown in some body parts) WITHOUT trying to get rid of it. Add some more meditative thinking:
A. I’m obsessively waiting for the guy to call, I want him to call.
B. My desire, my obsession is here again. I know it will come back again and again.
C: it’s normal, it’s human, and it’s okay to desire him to call.
D. I’ll feel this anxiety and urge to again, it’s natural, it’s okay.
2. Stoic view:
Uncontrollable: I don’t know the guy; not sure if he likes me enough to initiate a call; he may call or may never call.
The toughest Stoic mental preparation: he will NOT call! It is a FACT now!
Follow up: Okay, he’s out of the picture now, what would I do now? What would I do if I never bumped into him in the first place? Do it/them!
Stoic mediations:
1. I’m anxious and upset, he has not called or may never call.
2. If he doesn’t like me enough, what’s the point to go out with him? I do not want to beg, and will not beg (or initiate a call)
3. He has not called or may never call. That means we are not MEANT/fated to even to get to know each other.
4. There are other fish in the pond, I may meet another one soon or later. One can never say “never”.
5. I may not meet another cute guy like this one, I really like him and wish him to call; but what can I do to make him to call or date me?
6. Really nothing I can do on my end to make him to call! It’s so disappointing! *sigh*, *sigh* or *cry”, *cry”
7. It’s life, at least 80% imperfect!
*****
It’s just my possible approaches if I were in this scenario. You have to try some to figure out which meditations would work for your mind….
Snow,
“Oh, don’t worry, I’m not upset with you at all, considering how many posters you’re responding with caring advice. ”
Ok. Just didn’t want you to think I wasn’t listening. Your LE has a long timeline so I sometimes get a bit confused about what happened when.
“Is this LO the same guy you are trying to forget? (At end of this post), or someone new?”
Someone new.
“May I ask, how long were in your last, biggest LE?”
It’s embarrassing … about a decade.
“Yep, like me with LO5 from a dating app. We both tried to get along, but simply incompatible despite we’re both book-lovers, working in the same fields, and write purple proses and lyrics…”
That can happen, too. “On paper,” you have a ton of commonalities. But things just don’t “click” in person, with your personalities.
“Writing itself, regardless audience, is a powerful therapeutic means.”
Very true.
“But I also 🆎 agree with you on its limitation, I just can’t have a cup of coffee/tea or walk with my 👻 pals here, darn it! Our fives senses really need to be fed while interacting with others, in whatever kind of connections.”
Yes. There’s something about meeting up (or even calling) that is very important.
“You know why, while we don’t feel addictive with our normal friends? We’re talking about our deepest emotional desires, confused/addictive mind, and some soul here, unlike most realistic, laidback f2f chitchats.”
I’m not sure what you mean. I think with friends I feel I can be myself. With romance, it opens some kind of weird door in me with stuff I’ve tried to repress.
“I also found oral language is quite different from thoughtful writing, which involves a lot (self) reflections and mental meditations. Two communication forms should co-exist simultaneously compensating each other.”
Journaling, which is essentially what we do on here, is very helpful. But having a deep, one-on-one talk with someone … it’s uplifting. Spiritually. Emotionally.
“Precisely! and I had to pretend that I did not know his secret (did hint very indirectly to him that I knew), so as not to embarrass /save face for him — who wanted to and did wear a “flawless morality” mask to the end.”
I don’t remember … is he from your COO? You mention “saving face,” which you wrote is important in your COO.
” I dislike anything short term, never really into novelty, which often brought me (personally) more anxiety, instability than excitement and exhilaration; the latter two always died down soon”
The excitement dies down. Every time.
““Feelings involved” is not a main “enemy”, but WHAT one EXPECTS to GET out from those feelings and the accompanying actions/efforts. ”
What I’m trying to do is accept what people are giving me. Instead of being disappointed or hurt by what they didn’t give me (or I expected).
“That’s a huge amount of your learning! Congratulations!”
Finally understanding all my “issues.” As I wrote on another post, I can’t say the learning was fun. 🙂
“Did you notice that I used “unexpected” a lot in my posts to you, to indicate why lower/none expectations actually often produced surprising power.”
I did because you pointed it out. 🙂 I understand your point, though.
“You mean right now? A different, unavailable LO? Or, poor Sis! how did you get into another one this time after the last big LE?”
Yes, right now. I wouldn’t have called him an LO. Definitely a big crush. There were several times I was disappointed by him. Couldn’t read his behavior. We he into me? Was he not? But after a few days, I’d be fine. I’d calm down.
Until he disclosed. Whoa. Yeah. That sent me over the edge.
“Are you seeing a shrink? ”
Not right now but I have a former one I can contact and possibly set up an appointment with. I’d have to see.
“So please check its schedule out early and plan it early if you’re interested in it…. I suffered a great deal LE pains right after LE4.5 (long distance LO), so took my first Vipassana retreat, it really, really, really helped!”
I’ll look into it. I have been doing some guided Anxiety and Stress meditations on youtube. They do help a bit.
“Glimmer comes and goes, not so dangerous as LE.”
I agree.
” If you have a SO and a Glimmer suddenly strikes, do you want to inform your beloved SO?”
Glimmer? No. Limerence … maybe. Depends on the SO. Would he want to know?
“He does not have the kind of sophistication my glimmer would land on, even when he was young.”
Gotcha. No, he’s not sophisticated. Who’s your celebrity crush?
“Not just this one, but some musicians you commented on last year.”
I don’t remember who they were.
“I like a lot pop, some rock, a bit of soul, classical, and Italian operatic arias. ”
I know some about classical. I should probably learn more about it.
“I can’t have any background music when I’m reading, writing, grading homework, etc.”
I’m the same way. And I like to read books that require some concentration. To appreciate the writing. I can’t do it and be distracted.
“I will have to check whether a man can shit his 💦 or 💧, a particular criteria of my own… blaming LO1, 4, 5…”
Shit his tears? I think you might mean shed ?
“For the first time in nearly 8 years, I knew what it FELT like without any LE “weight” and that mysterious Longing from childhood!”
That has to be wonderful.
“I’m still in HE environment part-time, but he downgraded to HS prep full-time in another state. NO chance for conference or bump into each other in town.”
Ok. I mean, if you want to shoot him an email to check-in and say hello. You might be ok.
” Hypothetically, if xLO suddenly appears in my vicinity, I doubt that my LE would NOT be somehow rekindled.”
That’s what I would worry about. Could the LE be rekindled? I have no experience with that. Reconnecting with an ex-LO and hoping to be friends.
“In COO by traditions, people still give some time to BFF and would drop anything off to help BFF should it needed. The other side does the same.”
I think that’s really nice.
“Then, I’d say only 1% of chance such BFF is possible in big cities, where everyone seems to be on the go/run. And it takes place mostly between singles—to singles.”
Yes. Agree. When someone gets a partner, the friendship is either much, much different or totally over.
“Yes, it’s deep LOVE without Eros and Mania.”
I agree. I have loved all my close friends. They’ve felt like family members.
“I enjoy watching your dashing, smashing stage shows with other LwL singletons, sidelined by a couple of partnered dudes 😆! Keep 💪 & 💞, INFP Sis! 🎤 💃 🎶”
Well, you jump right in there! I don’t want to be a hog. 🙂
Marcia,
Sorry about all grammatical errors, but I think you can clearly understand my meanings.
I don’t know your effective ways with words, you can figure out better wording to meditate.
Again, the key is NOT try to STOP your obsessive desire, which WILL only make it worse. Play with those meditative thoughts to replace, substitute and eventually dissipate the obsession.
Let me know whether they could work… ✌️ 🫂
Snow,
Thanks for posting those meditations. I like both but am going to print out the Stoic ones.
“Again, the key is NOT try to STOP your obsessive desire, which WILL only make it worse.”
Ok. I think the saying is: What we resist persists.
“Let me know whether they could work… ✌️ 🫂”
Ok.
Marcia,
“Ok. Just didn’t want you to think I wasn’t listening. Your LE has a long timeline so I sometimes get a bit confused about what happened when.”
Yes, my LE has 7 year timeline with some features I don’t see in other cases. I was also unwilling to tell the whole story in the past (LaR tried hard to tactfully dig it), thinking it’s private belonging to me, not for sharing. And I would have had emotional colors/charges attached to my narratives, which would not be fair. Now, I have zero negative feelings about it, and I’m grateful for IT! Minus some LE pains, it’s next to the best thing that happened in my past life…
“It’s embarrassing … about a decade”
Oh, for some reasons, I thought it’s between 2-4 years. He was the LO who was a master to play push-n-pull game and rejected you in the end when you were ready to go all the way in? Then you left the job?
“I’m not sure what you mean. I think with friends I feel I can be myself. With romance, it opens some kind of weird door in me with stuff I’ve tried to repress.”
I guess I’m more out nowadays with my good acquaintance, so more chitchats. My best Russian gf got married 6 years ago and moved to a distance suburb, so I lost “confidant buddy” nearby. We used to talk our head off about anything and everything.
With romance, I think understand your concerns, but I’d feel repressed if I can’t talk my inner stuff with bf. I talked with LaR about this. In COO, friendship (not BFF) and romance are treated like one’s two arms — separated, coordinated, and united in one body. Without this particular friendship flavored with romantic affection, we believed the relationship won’t last long. It is ideal, of course.
“Journaling, which is essentially what we do on here, is very helpful. “
Oh Sis, I have to add more points to our writing here: it is NOT just journaling, it’s public monologuing and dialoguing❗️ It’s a literal but invisible stage❗️ But you’re right, that in the midst of rambling, I rarely felt I was speaking to any full human being (out of sight, out of head), and mainly focused on my contents.
Journals don’t respond to, (dis)agree with, or attack us, but look at what’s happened here⁉️ We have no idea how many ears are up in the invisible space, listening/reading. We can’t ramble as freely as journaling. Our words produce effects on others, so we hold our responsibility to the invisible PUBLIC. And they take their OWN RESPONSIBILITIES in whatever ways they react!
Moreover, we get specific suggestions and learn from many types of mindsets, infinitely fascinating… It’s also a Stoic practice camp, in which you’ll have to prepare for all kinds of unexpected, or worsts reactions… Just look at my journey here⁉️ 😉
I have Reaped some fruits and crops through active participation, both negative and positive reactions, and progressed into a better Stoic and Buddhist… 😊 Thank you for all and Dr L!
“But having a deep, one-on-one talk with someone … it’s uplifting. Spiritually. Emotionally.”
Yes, one-on-one talk has a deep bonding with our six senses. Visual and audio, and sensory communication have a huge effect on me personally. In LwL, we have limited emotional, mental, and spiritual interactions and thus limited, abstract “bonding” based only on “contrived” words between closer 👻 pals/ravels.
“I don’t remember … is he from your COO? You mention “saving face,” which you wrote is important in your COO.
No, he’s from here. But he wants to be thought Good/moral and liked by all. I know he wants my respect as well as LE affection…
”The excitement dies down. Every time.”
I like long-term bonding in any type of connections, it gives me a sense of stability and belonging.
“What I’m trying to do is accept what people are giving me. Instead of being disappointed or hurt by what they didn’t give me (or I expected).”
You’re already a Stoic, Sis! 🤝 It’s not just “accept” but really appreciate, enjoy, savor, so as not to take what people are giving us for granted.
Another Stoic meditation: No one owes us anything in this world. Anything given should be taken as a gift whether other sides have such intention or not (you don’t have to tell other sides, but hold gratitudes within for one’s own mental health). Gratitude without expectation would bring us much more contentment.
“Finally understanding all my “issues.” As I wrote on another post, I can’t say the learning was fun. 🙂”
It takes pains for us to learn our long past issues, and enduring such pains is also a part of the learning. Don’t we feel we have achieved something profound and extraordinary, even more than our college degrees ⁉️ 🫂
“Yes, right now. I wouldn’t have called him an LO. Definitely a big crush. There were several times I was disappointed by him. Couldn’t read his behavior. Was he into me? Was he not? But after a few days, I’d be fine. I’d calm down.”
I know all those feelings through my LEs! If those emotions come back again, Stoic mediations could help regulate them, I believe.
“Until he disclosed. Whoa. Yeah. That sent me over the edge.”
What do you mean “over the edge”? How did you respond? And he’s unavailable❓😳. What are you going to do now?
“I’ll look into it. I have been doing some guided Anxiety and Stress meditations on youtube. They do help a bit.”
10-day Nobel Silence retreat in a middle of deep woods is a total life-changing game, nothing in Youtube could ever compare with it! But it requires one’s huge commitment, not easy for a busy professional.
”Glimmer? No. Limerence … maybe. Depends on the SO. Would he want to know?”
But after slipping into limerence, it’s already hard, isn’t it a bit too late to disclose to SO?
“Gotcha. No, he’s not sophisticated. Who’s your celebrity crush?”
Jeremy Irons, Daniel Day-Lewis, and Matthew Goody.
“I know some about classical. I should probably learn more about it.”
Without words, classical music inspire me with wild imaginations. Opera helps me express and then dissipate my sadness and griefs (so seldom listen to them, I’m not often sad.)
“I’m the same way. And I like to read books that require some concentration. To appreciate the writing. I can’t do it and be distracted.”
I read books that require my active thinking and reflections, not just plots (I can watch movie adoptions for plots)
“Shit his tears? I think you might mean shed ?”
Ah, you caught my ESL error! 😱 thanks!
“That has to be wonderful.”
Not enough of my ESL words can describe it… felt like I’ve changed into a new person, literally, because that life-time mysterious Longing was also gone… 💃 💃 I have no known fear now…
“Ok. I mean, if you want to shoot him an email to check-in and say hello. You might be ok.”
Aha, not sure if I’d be okay. My imagination has a way to manipulate my emotions. My Stoic meditation here is: what’s the point? what do you want to get from his usual superficial greetings? Haven’t you felt enough disappointment about his lukewarm missives?
”That’s what I would worry about. Could the LE be rekindled? I have no experience with that. Reconnecting with an ex-LO and hoping to be friends.”
Me, neither. I have more reasons to be worried, since I’ve got so much positive benefits from my LE. My gratitude alone could make me “feeling”, but not realistically, closer to him again… then I might be sucked back to the old unavailable LE, losing my newly gained mental freedom…🙄
“I agree. I have loved all my close friends. They’ve felt like family members.”
I have them mainly in COO, but also some in North America, not any in my town, though! 😞
“Well, you jump right in there! I don’t want to be a hog. 🙂”
You guys talk so much about celebrities whom I don’t know at all and have to constantly look them up. Basically, I truly preferred all your choices, not flattery here❗️ and can’t quite fathom our “opponents’ choices… 🧐 Why males’ eyes are so different from ours?
It proves we are indeed INFP sisters, even from two very different cultures! 👯♀️ ❗️
I may jump in later… if you guys can put full names of those celebrities (only first name does not help me at all), so I may take a pop culture course here…. 😃
Snow,
“And I would have had emotional colors/charges attached to my narratives, which would not be fair.”
I was watching a YouTube video with four behavioral analysts. They said that every time you access a memory, you edit it. I thought that was interesting.
“Minus some LE pains, it’s next to the best thing that happened in my past life…”
I’m glad your LE was so beneficial to you. You may be the first poster who wrote their LE was the next best thing to happen to them. 🙂
“Oh, for some reasons, I thought it’s between 2-4 years. He was the LO who was a master to play push-n-pull game and rejected you in the end when you were ready to go all the way in? Then you left the job?”
I just thought about the timeline. It was 8 years. And then when I went complete NC, it was around another 2 to get over it. But by the time I went NC, the LE was much reduced. Still little embers but mostly anger. Yes, he was the one who was a master at push-pull. The timeline of it was a bit different … my leaving did not directly follow the rejection. He did a little bit of stuff physically, said no to more and then continued to heavily flirt with me. And I got to the point where I’d had enough. Then I left the job.
“I guess I’m more out nowadays with my good acquaintance, so more chitchats. My best Russian gf got married 6 years ago and moved to a distance suburb, so I lost “confidant buddy” nearby. We used to talk our head off about anything and everything.”
Yes, this is what I mean. The difference between chit chat-good acquaintance friends and close friends you talk to about everything. You could pick up the phone and say, “He called.” And she would immediately know who “he” was, the entire backstory about your interactions with him and maybe even your romantic history to give extra context. Someone who knows you that well. I miss that.
“With romance, I think understand your concerns, but I’d feel repressed if I can’t talk my inner stuff with bf. … Without this particular friendship flavored with romantic affection, we believed the relationship won’t last long. It is ideal, of course.”
I agree with everything you wrote here. I just don’t know that I’ve experienced both the friendship (at least not the kind of friendship you’re talking about) and the romance with a man.
“Oh Sis, I have to add more points to our writing here: it is NOT just journaling, it’s public monologuing and dialoguing❗️”
You’re right. The word “journaling” was just the first word that popped into my head.
“Moreover, we get specific suggestions and learn from many types of mindsets, infinitely fascinating… It’s also a Stoic practice camp, in which you’ll have to prepare for all kinds of unexpected, or worsts reactions… Just look at my journey here⁉️ 😉”
All true. There have been many times when another poster has written something from a totally different perspective than mine and gotten my to think beyond my narrow mindset.
“No, he’s from here. But he wants to be thought Good/moral and liked by all.”
Needing to be “liked by all” …. hmmm. That’s a personality trait that can be tricky. Problematic, even. Because where does the people pleasing end and the person’s real desires/wants begin?
“I like long-term bonding in any type of connections, it gives me a sense of stability and belonging.”
Well, that is where we are different. Because I apparently like feeling a little off balance. (I am by no means saying this is a good thing.) And part of me hates it. And I think there’s a part of me that enjoys the internal conflict.
“You’re already a Stoic, Sis! 🤝 It’s not just “accept” but really appreciate, enjoy, savor, so as not to take what people are giving us for granted.”
So, I can understand doing this with people I’m not close to. Acquaintances. Co-workers. But how do you do this with people you are close to, relationships in which their is some built-in level of providing something for each other (spouse, for example)? Which if what they’re providing is something you don’t want or need? What if you even articulate what you need and they ignore that and just keep providing what THEY want to give you? How do you not feel resentful?
“It takes pains for us to learn our long past issues, and enduring such pains is also a part of the learning.”
Yes, but for once I’d like some big life lesson to actually be positive. Not showing me all my shortcomings.
“What do you mean “over the edge”? How did you respond? And he’s unavailable❓😳. What are you going to do now?”
Over the edge … into obsessive thinking. Lots of anxiety. I’m not comfortable going into all the details in that this is a public website. Needless to say, I said and did more than I should have. And what he did … humiliated me. I now I feel like an utter moron. I can’t believe I fell for his crap (by that I mean the things he was saying). Am I ever going to be attracted to someone who’s not an idiot? Obviously it’s me. I’m the common denominator in all of this.
“10-day Nobel Silence retreat in a middle of deep woods is a total life-changing game, nothing in Youtube could ever compare with it!”
So you did this retreat? How was it to not talk for 10 days? How many people were in the group?
“But after slipping into limerence, it’s already hard, isn’t it a bit too late to disclose to SO?”
Well, I think of a glimmer as a strong attraction. Or recognition. Or a moment when someone moves you. But if the limerent doesn’t act on that moment, doesn’t try to befriend the LO, start texting him, start hanging out with him … in other words, doesn’t do anything to ignite things, the glimmer may not turn into limerence. And in those instances, no, I don’t know that anything needs to be revealed.
“Jeremy Irons, Daniel Day-Lewis, and Matthew Goody.”
JI: Yes. I read a review of a movie he was in. The reviewer said he exuded “exhaustive decadence.” So true. He can be so delicious.
DDL: Great actor. Depending on the role, he can be sexy. “Phantom Thread.” “The Age of Innocence” (a movie I love)
Matthew Goody: I’ve only seen him in one thing. “Match Point.” And Jonathan Rhys Myers was the sexy one in that film.
“I read books that require my active thinking and reflections, not just plots (I can watch movie adoptions for plots)”
I agree. I’m really reading the actual writing, the phrasing and the character development.
“Not enough of my ESL words can describe it… felt like I’ve changed into a new person, literally, because that life-time mysterious Longing was also gone… 💃 💃 I have no known fear now…”
That’s wonderful. It really is.
“My Stoic meditation here is: what’s the point? what do you want to get from his usual superficial greetings? Haven’t you felt enough disappointment about his lukewarm missives?”
Exactly. Would you be disappointed if he responded, but very superficially?
“My gratitude alone could make me “feeling”, but not realistically, closer to him again… then I might be sucked back to the old unavailable LE, losing my newly gained mental freedom…🙄”
I think that’s too much to risk.
“I have them mainly in COO, but also some in North America, not any in my town, though! 😞”
It’s hard as you get older. I have made one new friend recently. (By that I mean someone I would hang out with outside of wherever I met them.) We’ll see how it goes.
” and can’t quite fathom our “opponents’ choices… 🧐 Why males’ eyes are so different from ours?”
There’s usually a difference in what women can recognize in other women and what mean find appealing in women.
“It proves we are indeed INFP sisters, even from two very different cultures! 👯♀️ ❗️”
I think a true connection can overcome differences. 🙂
“I may jump in later… if you guys can put full names of those celebrities (only first name does not help me at all), so I may take a pop culture course here…. 😃”
ATTENTION MJ: If you are going to discuss celebrities, include last names! 🙂
Marcia, Marcia, Marcia,
Starting a new thread, so as not to derail your prior conversations.
“I think you’re the only one who’s noticed the kindness, so I don’t know what you mean by “as well.” 🙂”
Don’t be modest. I’ve seen all sorts of people thank you for your thoughtful words. Usually women. Usually INFPs. I won’t name names, but they all seemed to have a thing for Mr Darcy. (I know, right? Yuck!) And if they didn’t thank you, they should have. 🙂
You probably missed it, but the other day I said LaR was kind to other readers. (You know I expect everyone to read my comments with a microscope. I don’t care you only have limited time left on the planet). My comment means: “You AS WELL as LaR are kind to other readers – I have noticed this strain of abnormal soft-heartedness in both of you. (And people call me “sensitive”!) 😆
Just take the compliment, dear, and run with it – even if it’s wildly inaccurate. You’re not fooling anyone. We all know INFPs live for a good compliment. 😜
“Post-It Notes. 🙂”
That was going to be my second suggestion. We really need to appear together on a TV gameshow sometime. I think our team would win. 😜
You missed a really good zinger, though. When I said “Never coming to a department store near you”, I was hoping you would say: “Well, I bl**dy well hope not!” (You’ve still “got it”, from what I’ve heard. You don’t need to buy an overpriced perfume to prove you know what “it” is. What is “it”, by the way? Does anyone know? 🙂
“Ha! I kind of agree.”
You are the only person at LwL who has ever made a valid criticism of me. (A valid criticism that I bothered to read). For that criticism, dear, I respect you. Your valid criticism was calling me “verbose”.
You know what, honey? You’re right. I am verbose. You have helped me see the light. Wait for it, wait for it – I’m having a full-blown spiritual epiphany right now. I’m realising that it’s not necessary to be verbose ALL the time. Maybe I can get away with being verbose, like, maybe. like, only 85% of the time? 😁
No, seriously, my verbosity was getting out of hand. Thank you for putting an end to it. Happily, my verbosity was just an unconscious side-effect of my limerence. (I’ve discovered I can blame everything on limerence. Limerence seems to be the new ultimate get-out-of-jail-free card). Now that my limerence has mostly subsided, my verbosity will just go away too. I won’t even have to work on it! 😁
I will never be as concise as you, Marcia. Now I have a criticism to make of you: I actually think you could afford to pad out your writing some more. I think your comments are under-padded. They still look a little shabby, a little skinny, a little underfed. Never be afraid to use twelve words when you know only seven will do. Repeat after me the sacred mantra: “Adverbs and adjectives are my friends.” 🙂
Oh dear, I think my verbosity just came back… 🙄
Confession time: I have had so much fun on LwL over the past few years. You, Marcia, are one of the reasons I’ve had so much fun. When Dr. L started his blog, he may have intended to have a little fun himself with pictures and captions and the like. However, I highly doubt he ever anticipated how much fun some of his readers would end up having. 😆😆😜
I have had a ball while at LwL. I have had a ball in the way only an INFJ knows how to have a ball. What can I say? Verhose people … do it better. Also, we don’t waste our lives running around calling other people “meanies”, either sincerely or in jest. 😇
I know some people here have ridiculed me, if only in the privacy of their own minds. Maybe some of that ridicule was kind. Maybe some of that ridicule was unkind. (I have always sensed your ridicule was of the kindest variety imaginable, Marcia dear, so I have no issue with your ridicule). However, when push comes to shove, it doesn’t really matter what other people think about me. The last laugh belongs to me because … while participating at LwL, I’ve evidently enjoyed myself more than anyone. When life hands you lemons, make lemon meringue pie. (Purposeful living recipe). 🙂
“I am baffled you like the song “Don’t Cha.” This is NOT erudite, my friend. It’s such a horrible song. One of the worst ever recorded.”
To be honest, I didn’t like “Don’t Cha” for the longest time either. Maybe recovering from limerence has affected my taste in art, and I find that I can find innocent pleasure in a much broader range of things. Originally, I didn’t like the lyrics and I didn’t like the message. I thought: “What a gross song! And what a disgusting message to be sending young people!” (Even in my early 20s, I spoke like a statesman and I thought like a prim schoolmarm. You have no idea how many people I’ve terrorised with sheer politeness). 🤣
However, when I listened to Nicole’s online performance yesterday, I realised that I’m no longer offended by this particular example of pop confection. (Red alert: I’m in the middle of another fit of verbosity!) Maybe it’s just Nicole’s incredible charm in person (one doesn’t feel like she’s singing the song in an arrogant or demeaning way, but in a cute, bluesy, everybody-come-together-and-have-a-good-time way. The right artist at the right time with the right attitude can redeem/transform an otherwise mediocre number). 😜
Nicole is actually a classically-trained singer with an extraordinary range. She’s worked with Andrew Lloyd Webber. I’ve heard her convincingly sing (and act) such demanding songs as “Don’t Cry For Me Argentina” and “Phantom of the Opera”. Whatever people saw Nicole do in The Pussycat Dolls is only a small glimpse of her artistic capabilities, and didn’t showcase the whole woman. She also seems to be a really nice person. And she has joked that Norma Desmond was NOT the role she wished to gain massive critical acclaim for. 😉
Erudition is worthless, my dear, if it interferes with one’s enjoyment of life’s simple pleasures. That is why I largely reject the attribute “erudite”. I am determined to enjoy every experience I have in life. I am also determined to honour other people and other people’s accomplishments by giving credit where credit is due. Nicole has earned her flowers. Now let us all give her flowers to her. 🙂
Sammy,
My precious, you know me well enough to know how greedy I am and how possessive of your attention. I abhor being put on a group response. 🙂
“Don’t be modest. I’ve seen all sorts of people thank you for your thoughtful words. Usually women.”
Was that a slam? 🙂
“Usually INFPs.”
We understand each other.
“but they all seemed to have a thing for Mr Darcy. (I know, right? Yuck!)
Do you mean Colin Firth’s Mr. Darcy? Yes, please. 🙂
“but the other day I said LaR was kind to other readers. ”
He is.
“I don’t care you only have limited time left on the planet”
You asked me to help you get less verbose. Ain’t that much time left for me! 🙂
“We all know INFPs live for a good compliment. 😜”
Lol. Do we? 🙂
“What is “it”, by the way? Does anyone know? 🙂”
Let me know if you figure it out. 🙂
“I’m realising that it’s not necessary to be verbose ALL the time.”
And yet your post is still VERY long! I’m going to age another year before I get to the end of it! 🙂
” Repeat after me the sacred mantra: “Adverbs and adjectives are my friends.” 🙂”
I’m Ernest Hemingway. Minimalist. I get to the point. You’re one of those 19th century novelists who spend the first 100 pages discussing the main character’s childhood … and the reader is wondering when the REAL story is going to start. 🙂
“Confession time: I have had so much fun on LwL over the past few years. You, Marcia, are one of the reasons I’ve had so much fun. ”
That’s sweet of you to say. It has been fun. You are fun! 🙂
“I have had a ball in the way only an INFJ knows how to have a ball. ”
What is “a ball” to an INFJ? You get detailed lab results on your bloodwork and you can study them. 🙂
“However, when push comes to shove, it doesn’t really matter what other people think about me. The last laugh belongs to me because … ”
You’re quoting Natalie Wood In “Gypsy.” She plays the famous burlesque dancer Gypsy Rose Lee and her mother says everyone is laughing at her. Her response (and I’m paraphrasing), “Nobody laughs at me because I laugh at me first.”
“To be honest, I didn’t like “Don’t Cha” for the longest time either. Maybe recovering from limerence has affected my taste in art, ”
Has it made it worse? 🙂
““What a gross song! And what a disgusting message to be sending young people!””
And a gross message to send to other women.
“However, when I listened to Nicole’s online performance yesterday, I realised that I’m no longer offended by this particular example of pop confection. ”
Hey, I don’t mind a good pop confection, but “Don’t Cha” ain’t it. 🙂
“(Red alert: I’m in the middle of another fit of verbosity!)”
Of course you are. 🙂
“The right artist at the right time with the right attitude can redeem/transform an otherwise mediocre number). 😜”
Yeah, someone with maybe the charisma of Jack Nicholson. Who even in a mediocre movie is still good.
” And she has joked that Norma Desmond was NOT the role she wished to gain massive critical acclaim for. 😉”
It’s a fantastic part. Following in the footsteps of the great Glen Close. A tough act to follow. And of course Gloria Swanson in the movie. Another tough act to follow.
@Marcia.
As you can probably tell from this response, I didn’t read your post because I was sure that at least 75% of it was highly objectionable in a totally good-natured, so-bad-that-it’s-good, who’s-the-walrus kind of way. 😆
It’s all good, though. To tell you the truth, I’ve never had a problem with you of any description. I actually find you incredibly reasonable, apart from the bit about wanting to blow up your life. But even you admit that idea was maybe a little dotty. And maybe you have no life to blow up? (Whoops. Sorry. Shouldn’t have said that. You know I love you). 😉
Regarding verbosity, why didn’t you tell me to shut up sooner when I was being verbose? Remember, dear, for next time, medical interventions should be timely. It’s no good poking the patient after he’s expired. 🙂
My, my, my. Aren’t you popular with the LwL menfolk nowadays? Judging from the commentary below, Adam and MJ know you better than I do. I’m happy for MJ to better friends with you than I am. I swear I’m not in the slightest bit jealous. But answer me this one question – is it because he’s prettier than me or is it because he’s less verbose than me? 😁
I was just kidding about you dodging compliments. I know you deflect all compliments out of a desire for people to (a) repeat them in a louder voice so the whole room can hear and (b) elaborate at great length, and possibly throw in several more. (Wanting people to repeat compliments loudly is a trait you share with … every gay man I’ve ever known). 😉
But, seriously, dear, I have enjoyed your company. 😜
“I’m happy for MJ to better friends with you than I am. I swear I’m not in the slightest bit jealous.”
Nothing to brag about @Sammy. Deep down I really think she can’t stand me at all. 😄
It’s like a love/hate thing I think. Kinda like it is with my Ex. (The Ol’ Battle-Ax) She’s the same age as Marcia.. (We’re all 54 mind you)
Anytime I mention ANY Woman younger than her, the devil horns come out and I need to be put out, along with today’s trash.. 🤣🤣
Think I just found the Christmas present Marcia can send to me this year..
I’ll be waiting Dear.. 😂
https://www.eonline.com/news/1418106/sydney-sweeney-is-selling-her-used-bathwater-in-a-dr-squatch-soap-collab
MJ,
“Deep down I really think she can’t stand me at all.”
That’s not true. Essentially, I think you’re a good person.
But like a lot of people … there’s a disconnect when it comes to the opposite sex. Tbh, I include myself in the category.
“Anytime I mention ANY Woman younger than her, the devil horns come out and I need to be put out, along with today’s trash.. 🤣🤣”
Well, yeah, I’m an old broad. The luscious 50 Cent has said on several talk shows that he thinks Helen Mirren is sexy. That’s interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3P9SAY4GRfc
I don’t get Sydney Sweeney. Who was the “it” girl before her? Megan Fox? I get her. But Sydney has about two expressions — bored and more bored. She has such a flat affect, personality-wise. She’s not unattractive by any means but not a knockout like Megan Fox.
Sammy,
“I actually find you incredibly reasonable, apart from the bit about wanting to blow up your life. But even you admit that idea was maybe a little dotty. ”
It was. I’m an INFP. I’m always going to struggle with “containing the emotions.” But let’s be honest … the smartest choice is always the most boring. 🙂
“And maybe you have no life to blow up? ”
That’s why I want to blow it up. 🙂
“Regarding verbosity, why didn’t you tell me to shut up sooner when I was being verbose? ”
So you’re relying on a half-sane limerent to correct your personality flaws? Like the blind leading the blind. 🙂
“My, my, my. Aren’t you popular with the LwL menfolk nowadays?”
Right? I don’t know where that came from, but I ain’t going to say no! 🙂
“I’m happy for MJ to better friends with you than I am. I swear I’m not in the slightest bit jealous.”
I WANT you to be jealous. 🙂
“is it because he’s prettier than me or is it because he’s less verbose than me? 😁”
The latter. He’s a man of even fewer words than I am. 🙂
“I know you deflect all compliments out of a desire for people to (a) repeat them in a louder voice so the whole room can hear and (b) elaborate at great length, and possibly throw in several more. (Wanting people to repeat compliments loudly is a trait you share with … every gay man I’ve ever known). 😉”
That’s high praise! 🙂
“But, seriously, dear, I have enjoyed your company. 😜”
You know I love you. 🙂
“Well, yeah, I’m an old broad.”
@Marcia,
You just say you’re old. You might even feel it sometimes. Heck, even I do. But I’m also the guy that looks in the mirror and flat out refuses to believe it. Like old crushes, marriage, family, divorce, life.. Like really? I haven’t done all that. None of that happened did it? It’s been 30 plus freaking years!! How in the hell did it get to this already??
https://youtu.be/h49F_5Nr1T4?si=o6H80yRF3i07-VW_
As for Megan Fox, I was never that much into her. I mean she’s decent and all and I did like her when she was on an episode of 2 and a half Men, but being the “it” girl? I wasn’t seeing it..
With Sydney, take her or leave her.. I like her and all, she’s pretty hot but her style seems worn out and generic.
I like Sabrina a whole lot more. That sweet little Barbie Coquette thing she’s got going on is super hot and I’d much rather have some of her bathwater.. 😆😂
MJ,
“But I’m also the guy that looks in the mirror and flat out refuses to believe it.”
I mean, I don’t consider myself the Crypt Keeper but I’m not young. I don’t want to lie to myself.
“It’s been 30 plus freaking years!! How in the hell did it get to this already??”
I feel the same way. I used to one of the youngest people in the room. HOW did I ever get to a place where I was one of the oldest?
https://youtu.be/h49F_5Nr1T4?si=o6H80yRF3i07-VW_
Love this movie. The expression on his face is the same one I probably have when I visit my family. How is it I’m related to these people? 🙂
“With Sydney, take her or leave her.. I like her and all, she’s pretty hot but her style seems worn out and generic.”
She’s taupe paint.
“I like Sabrina a whole lot more. That sweet little Barbie Coquette thing she’s got going on is super hot ”
She’s just doing an updated Marilyn Monroe. But her songs are catchy.
Sydney would put me into sleep in 10 minutes!
Megan Fox is ✅…
But both are too young, not enough substance or depth in their eyes…
Sabrina❓
Snow,
“But both are too young, not enough substance or depth in their eyes…
I don’t think M.J. is looking for substance or depth. 🙂
Sabrina❓”
Sabrina Carpenter. Pop singer.
Marcia,
“Love this movie. The expression on his face is the same one I probably have when I visit my family. How is it I’m related to these people? 🙂”
That’s how I felt with JN’s eyes, more with curiosity, when I went most social events and ex-familial-related holiday gatherings… I was mostly quiet but my mind could not help observing, sensing, and often feeling surreal in relating to them…. A lot of times, there seemed to be a Grand Canyon between my face and theirs…
I love JN’s actings…
Snow,
“A lot of times, there seemed to be a Grand Canyon between my face and theirs…”
You mean with your family?
“I love JN’s actings…”
Me, too. I really the movie that the clip was from. It’s called “About Schmidt.” Be warned if you see it that it’s very sad. At least I found it sad. But I loved him in it because people usually associate him with big, bombastic acting … and he’s so subtle in this.
Marcia,
“You mean with your family?“
I meant my extended x-family members, relatives, friends and acquaintance. You saw them for holiday meals/festivities and warmly chitchat about the world and some personal affairs (more of facts or anecdotes), but I didn’t really know their personality, thoughts, sentimentality, or any dirty laundry in their life. I couldn’t ask any in such social settings. Thus, a Grand Canyon sometimes appeared before even beautiful faces…
As an immigrant, I often sat there very curious: what are their lives like in reality, when “no one is watching”? What tic or tickle their limps? What are their joys and pains? … I could help wonder about these things since I was a teen.…
Of course, my eyes couldn’t dramatically roll around like JN. Among my favorite actors, JN is the least handsome one, but I can’t forget his performances (later ones more). He can be dramatic, subtle, down-to-earth, arrogant, passionate, touching….anything you want him to be!
In general, I like subtle and few-word actings, leaving one enough room to imagine/interpret what might be going on in their mind… If told everything with no questions “asked” or pondered upon in a film, I fall sleep. I seldom watch action or musical movies (Broadway shows are exceptions), and almost never horror ones — giving me nightmares without exception.
Here in LwL, I don’t feel a bathtub distance between “close” 👻 👻, although I have no factual knowledge of you… Otherwise, I’d drag you into the scented hot water… 🤭
Snow,
“I meant my extended x-family members, relatives, friends and acquaintance. You saw them for holiday meals/festivities and warmly chitchat about the world and some personal affairs (more of facts or anecdotes), but I didn’t really know their personality, thoughts, sentimentality, or any dirty laundry in their life. I couldn’t ask any in such social settings. Thus, a Grand Canyon sometimes appeared before even beautiful faces…
As an immigrant, I often sat there very curious: what are their lives like in reality, when “no one is watching”? What tic or tickle their limps? What are their joys and pains? … I could help wonder about these things since I was a teen.…”
I think I know what you mean. With my family, we chuckle over the anecdotes of kooky relatives and chit chat about every life, but I don’t really know who they are as people.
I have day nightmares in which they put together a funeral for me … but it’s not my funeral. It’s for someone else. Because they don’t really know me.
“Among my favorite actors, JN is the least handsome one, but I can’t forget his performances (later ones more). He can be dramatic, subtle, down-to-earth, arrogant, passionate, touching….anything you want him to be!”
I agree. I don’t find him handsome but he is such a damn good actor.
“If told everything with no questions “asked” or pondered upon in a film, I fall sleep. I seldom watch action or musical movies (Broadway shows are exceptions), and almost never horror ones — giving me nightmares without exception.”
Me, too. Although I don’t watch a lot of Broadway shows.
“Here in LwL, I don’t feel a bathtub distance between “close” 👻 👻, although I have no factual knowledge of you… Otherwise, I’d drag you into the scented hot water… 🤭”
Not sure what you mean.
“I don’t think M.J. is looking for substance or depth. 🙂”
@Marcia, Snow,
I’m not.. Not at this point.. Can’t even get a cup of coffee with a Woman. Let alone a sip of water.. So I really just need someone with a pulse. Someone willing to put up with me. Gotta be a Lady somewhere out there, down on her luck too.
Guess that’s why I took the $#!+ I got with Lady Friend. Holy crap am I an idiot and a fool for putting up with that. Only in hindsight now do I see it for what it was.. 😑
“Be warned if you see it that it’s very sad. At least I found it sad.”
It is terribly sad, but a great movie. He cries in it too, which of course I can identify with. When it came out, I was only 31. Crazy how it is so much more poignant and relevant to me now, given the paths I’ve traveled.. It still holds up.. 😭😂
MJ,
“Guess that’s why I took the $#!+ I got with Lady Friend. Holy crap am I an idiot and a fool for putting up with that. Only in hindsight now do I see it for what it was.. 😑”
Yes! She wasn’t very nice to you. Next time, if someone won’t give you a definitive answer to your question about hanging out (and thus never hangs out with you) …. WALK!
You are M fu**ing J!
“Crazy how it is so much more poignant and relevant to me now, given the paths I’ve traveled.. It still holds up.. 😭😂”
I love Kathy Bates in it. One of her funniest performances.
Sammy (pardon my inebriation) but if weren’t for your preference I’d expect to receive front row tickets for MJ and yours cage fight for Marcia.
I will not say who’d I’d wager on because I don’t gamble.
And I agree Marcia does seem to deflect compliments.
Adam,
“Sammy (pardon my inebriation) but if weren’t for your preference I’d expect to receive front row tickets for MJ and yours cage fight for Marcia.”
I would love that!
Cue up … “It’s Raining Men!” 🙂
“And I agree Marcia does seem to deflect compliments.”
Fair enough. 🙂
“I would love that!
Cue up … “It’s Raining Men!””
No you would not love that.
Nobody wants to see this middle aged Walrus, cage fighting with anybody..
Trust me on this one.. 😂
Okay, fair enough. We can always have an old-fashioned arcade cabinet Street Fighter II tournament to win Marcia’s affections. You’re both old enough to know what I am talking about. (Use Blanka he’s the best character.)
Adam,
“We can always have an old-fashioned arcade cabinet Street Fighter II tournament to win Marcia’s affections.”
I don’t know what that is.
I’m fine if they want to throw some drinks at each other. Or maybe a couple of “Will Smith” slaps.
Sammy wins … We’re off to the drag show.
MJ wins … I shudder to think where he hangs out. 🙂
“MJ wins … I shudder to think where he hangs out. 🙂”
@Marcia
At my favorite dive watering hole of course. . We can hang out, shoot the s#!+, drink pitchers, play pool and see what happens after closing time.. 😉
As long as they serve either Guinness or Samuel Smith Oatmeal Stout I’m there.
Oh and have a jukebox. Can’t be drinkin without singin.
MJ,
“At my favorite dive watering hole of course. . We can hang out, shoot the s#!+, drink pitchers, play pool and see what happens after closing time.. 😉”
I was thinking it was someplace with a special password you had to provide to get in. Something like: No babes over 30.
🙂
“As long as they serve either Guinness or Samuel Smith Oatmeal Stout I’m there.”
“Oh and have a jukebox. Can’t be drinkin without singin.”
@Adam,
A Guiness Man. I like that. A man after my own heart.. 🍻🍻
Yes its got all that. Plus a lot of character. Too bad you’re all not from Chicago area. I’d suggest we meet up later. They have a deck too and it’s going to be a great night for one of their famous greasy burgers.. 😆😋
@Marcia,
“I was thinking it was someplace with a special password you had to provide to get in. Something like: No babes over 30.”
Oh I have one of those places. The password is “fidelio”..
Yes, you can come in too. Just wear a mask.. (It’s a requirement..)
😆🤣🙂
You’ll also be happy to know when I went late night shopping last night, I spotted a younger Dude (probably around 25-ish) wearing a t-shirt that said, “I like Older Women”.. You were the first person I thought of.. 🙂
Then I thought, how would I look wearing that shirt?
MJ,
“Oh I have one of those places. The password is “fidelio”..
It’s not “barely legal”? (Sorry. Couldn’t help myself. 🙂 )
“Yes, you can come in too. Just wear a mask.. (It’s a requirement..)
😆🤣🙂”
A requirement for old broads so we don’t offend nobody? 🙂
“Then I thought, how would I look wearing that shirt?”
How would I look wearing it? 🙂
“A requirement for old broads so we don’t offend nobody?”
@Marcia,
You never saw “Eyes Wide Shut?”
“How would I look wearing it? 🙂”
Probably kinda hot, but be prepared for some approaching Ladies. I know you could handle it.. 😁
MJ,
“You never saw “Eyes Wide Shut?”
Yes, but I thought it was strange. And unintentionally funny in places.
“Probably kinda hot, but be prepared for some approaching Ladies. I know you could handle it.. 😁”
Hey, a fan is a fan. 🙂
Frederico if you are still lurking I want to say I miss you my friend. While Sammy and Marcia talk about their comradery it made me remember your absence. If you feel so inclined to post, it would make my day. Come on, you can’t say no to this old man, right? I hope you are well my friend. This is your song.
That’s What Friends Are For — Dionne Warwick, Elton John, Stevie Wonder, Gladys Knight
https://youtu.be/TEQaR4RUDP4?si=cfqGFN3ZObrZEhjc
🚜 🌱 🌽 ,
I have to start a thread here, it’s so hard to locate the old posts with new posts streaming the old ones away in the bubbling Spring….
“I am on record for my admiration of the P trait. I am slowly working on being more like that on some LwL replies. “
I think you’ll find more that P traits would expand your mind and bring you unexpected joy or surprising satisfaction to your body, mind and soul… 😆
“But it occasionally means I fire something off in a way that my dominant J is unhappy with later.
Trust me, I had probably 3 times more of your J treats two decades ago, it was very annoying to those around me and brought myself discontents. I realized it and gradually reduced them, the contentment over ordinary matters has increased. 😊
“I find I can sense / intuit quite a lot about different posters – increasingly so when I have read their posts over time or have interacted with them, but I sometimes get a good sense / intuition quickly.”
That’s true to me to a certain extent; however, words are “treacherous”, not necessarily caused by speakers’ intention, but by my own wild imagination. If I rely solely on words, I could sketch from 1-10“portraits” on same 👻, and I don’t know which one is more accurate. Then, I would shut down T as much as possible, and use N&P to sense for a while.
But with LwL’s nature, I can never verify my N&P, without comparing observation notes with other similar minds. Some would argue it doesn’t matter, because one’s subjective views matter much more to one’s world — the belief system?
The challenge would be what one does with those subjective views. My imagined responses (of ET) to my monologues aided me to heal my cptsd. If he had replied and responses were far from my wishes, then I could have never achieved the unexpected, positive outcome.
“That kind of flies in the face of my “93% meaning lacking in words” claim, but I feel I can figure quite a lot out with the 7% –go I think it’s helped by my dominant N trait. “
I don’t know how you came up with such a specific ratio 😀. As limerent, a lot of us here has strong “N”, which have created from a few to a lot illusions when dealing with LO during the entire LE.
“It will never truly be tested but I do think I have reasonable feel for what many LwLers would be like in real life and who I’d get on with. Do you think that’s misguided? I think you also do.”
No, it’s misguided, particularly in you who is so good with NS words. Even with my NNS shortcoming here, I think I’m okay in general (most of posters’ words, not LE emotions/thoughts, are consistent).
But I become more hesitant to trust my N nowadays, see how many realistic, regrettable assessment errors I made in dealing with ET — I would’ve suffered less LE pains if I had understood the dynamic better! Do you also remember the jaw-dropping “mistakes” made in my own chatroom a while ago⁉️
“I would say obvious to me from the first moment (a year now) – before that it is hazy, incomplete and non-linear. All I would be sure on is ‘not initially’ (what you believed was good, was indeed good)
I tend to believe face-values of others’ words, and hate to spin my brain to suspect and then dig what are actually said in between lines (in my ESL tongue). But I certainly understand that certain matters can’t be laid out black-or-white under the scrutinizing sunlight, only that my social/emotional intelligence is lowered by the language limitation and the “blind” senses. (So I eventually 👀 😎 🍫 for clues, her 👁️ is sharp!)
What I believed was my imaginations, powerful in both ways; negative ones could psychosomatically “paralyzed” me while positive ones to me to the Moon…. For positive imagination/illusions, the mind would SUBconsciously or intuitively seize them to break/cure/heal whatever “stuff” (Marcia’s term) left in my system, in a blink of eyes, a couple of hours, or a few days. It’s automatically done without any of my control/planing; T only selected which imagination to believe.
In a situation like the above, no one elses T/J brain, or even my own, is able to interfere works of the imagination. The T will deal with some inevitable illusions or self-delusions later, but by then some positive impact/effect, unexpected or subconsciously desired is completed. One can rewrite/negate/forget illusive “stories”, (like treating old traumas), but their IMPACT already made, stay permanent or long lasting.
“I used to think you blamed your ESL a lot when myself.
Not as much as my cultural ignorance or love social/emotional intelligence. I’m not “bright enough to make troubles…” 🤭
“You may have put it down to inability to decode language when in fact nobody can really decode illogic.”
One should 🔎 natures/cause of any illogic, natural or intentional….
“Now for the quickfire round (I can do this quick thinking direct P stuff!)
Would be interested to see that. “
Here it goes —
*****
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice,
“whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master – that’s all.”
*****
“The only way to win is by doing nothing.”
The only way to “win” here is to appreciate amusement of the conversations… 😂
There is too much desire to “win” all the time in this world, instead of “enjoying” whatever it is out there or right here; too much doing (extraordinary busy) and not enough being (savoring). We are “human beings” not “human doings”. From a COO perspective, there is no objective winning or losing.
“There was one particular time in the last month when that became acutely obvious if it wasn’t before.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to, I thought they were all in this month…. But they are in the past now, and I can’t (even wish) discuss them in PUBLIC…
“Let Don wave the sword, hide and watch from a safe distance?”
DQ is adorably brave and “sincere”! In order to experience his romantic (in a broader scope) dreams, he pretended to be mad and adventured out to act his fantasies out. In this regard, he’s more lovable than that cold rational, indecisive, inactive Hamlet. In each of us exists both Don Quixote — passion, and Hamlet — reason, switching hands, at different times and in different situations, to be stronger/louder or tamer/softer, in order to balance our mental homeostasis; we really need them both balanced.
Ideally I prefer the former but can’t abandon the latter, this world is too imperfect — a lot of time tragic or saddening… Stormy rages or hatred do not scare me (there are understandable reasons behind all of them), but tragedies or perceived “tragedies” could crush me down for days if not months. I used to enjoy only sad and tragic stories/movies/music/(not paintings), what could help bring my tears down…
“I think the tree has many, many branches.”
What a vivid, accurate image!
” … a “tantrum-throwing toddler… ”
Could even that description be Wittgenstein’s treatment? Remove the premise and the rest goes out of the window too.”
Now 🔎 retrospectively, it’s probable, but only half, as I sense it.
“I don’t remember Madame de Staël complimenting or being given a 💐 by Mr Bonaparte? Do you mean a 🪞 ?”
Hmm…. I thought you are excellent in sorting out time sequence.
As a Bonaparte’s “feared”, hated critique, “Madame de Staël” only fairly, indirectly compliment on his specific points. (It’s rumored in real history that she admired him after their first meeting but later she abhored his big appetite for power and subsequently became his public enemy… )🪞was given further back in time… 💐 was not presented but something more delicate or fragile — can’t be held with a rough keyboard here… 😀
It’s said that the history always repeats itself, but in some “twisted” or “renovated” ways… It will take time to 👁️ clearly… 😊
Keep missing “no, not”! 🧠 🔨
“No, it’s NOT misguided…”
“while positive ones TOOK me to the Moon or the remains of Waterloo Battle ground. “
“ or LOW social/emotional intelligence.
“Which could help bring my tears down…”. Nowadays, I enjoy tasteful comedies, and appreciate more and more British dry sense of humors — 🤭
🍅,
I’m time-poor this weekend, so my replies might 🐌 down, but I’ll get back to some of the earlier themes I haven’t had a chance to reply to as soon as I can.
For now just a quick reply to bits in this message:
“But I become more hesitant to trust my N nowadays, see how many realistic, regrettable assessment errors I made in dealing with ET — I would’ve suffered less LE pains if I had understood the dynamic better!”
I am not so sure that’s a fault of your N as much as the fact you didn’t have the Western cultural frame of reference (EA etc) to know why ET was acting like he was. All your experiences since have given you that, so try not to be too hard on yourself about these events that happened before your knowledge is where it is now. N now has different information to work with.
[clarification – all my bits one message about timelines and about what was ‘true’ or not, and when, only related in that instance to the previous situation that was (indirectly) under our discussion , not anything wider]
“too much doing (extraordinary busy) and not enough being (savoring). We are “human beings” not “human doings”.”
these are very profound words and worth me remembering, too much ‘doing’ being the bane of my life.
“Now 🔎 retrospectively, it’s probable, but only half, as I sense it.”
Maybe … but if there was an internal sense there that only one could be ‘right’/seen as right, then one naturally has to discredit the other, to convince the public and perhaps also oneself. Kind of a delusion that is maybe eventually internalised. Sometimes we end up believing our own invented stories, if you know what I mean. Or we decide where we want the story to end and then write the story to get to that ending.
“Hmm…. I thought you are excellent in sorting out time sequence” … ” 💐 was not presented but something more delicate or fragile”
Normally yes, I am good at the time sequences – I have the overall time sequence fairly clear. But I am unaware of 💐, subtle or not, which means I’ve either missed something in all the recent busy-ness of this place, or it was too subtle and only obvious / meant to be obvious to the recipient. It’s not a problem if so.
“Nowadays, I enjoy tasteful comedies, and appreciate more and more British dry sense of humors — 🤭”
I’m biased but I think the British humour is brilliant – but also one of the most incredibly difficult ones to ‘access’ for someone who is not from the culture and who has not lived here for a long time. It is very subtle, self-deprecating and wordplay based, but when it’s done well it is brilliant.
🌱 🌽,
“I’m time-poor this weekend, so my replies might 🐌 down, but I’ll get back to some of the earlier themes I haven’t had a chance to reply to as soon as I can.”
No worries. Nothing needs to be rushed to meet no deadlines. Let’s try to become a savoring “👻 being”, not “👻 doing” here…
“So try not to be too hard on yourself about these events that happened before your knowledge is where it is now. “
I clumsily tried your British sense of humor in my “regrets”… 😋 Just imagine what could have possibly happened if my culture ignorance were smaller back then… You “know” me…. 🤫
“N now has different information to work with.”
Again, a British style of humor… 😀
[clarification – all my bits one message about timelines and about what was ‘true’ or not, and when, only related in that instance to the previous situation that was (indirectly) under our discussion , not anything wider]
I know, but in the history, no big event was totally “isolated/independent” suddenly coming out nowhere…. Waterloo battle was the result of Napoleon’s accumulated “war crimes” across Europe.
“Maybe … but if there was an internal sense there that only one could be ‘right’/seen as right, then one naturally has to discredit the other, to convince the public and perhaps also oneself.”
There are two possibilities here: naturally or intentionally (??)… we have to read broadly to discern if one is a lunatic, or a genius, or a lunatic genius… 😎
“Kind of a delusion that is maybe eventually internalised. Sometimes we end up believing our own invented stories, if you know what I mean. “
Based on our common sense, that would be true to a genuine lunatic, or someone with a part of 🧠 lunatic and another part genius… But what if it was an a court 🤡? Again try your words, “natural” or “international”… and ❓❓🔍
“Or we decide where we want the story to end and then write the story to get to that ending.”
That’s what many talent writers did and always do, for serious purposes, or bewildering amusement… I can’t assess this when 👁️ can’t 👀 writers, but the Unconscious did 👁️ in my dreams….
“Normally yes, I am good at the time sequences – I have the overall time sequence fairly clear. But I am unaware of 💐, subtle or not, which means I’ve either missed something in all the recent busy-ness of this place, or it was too subtle and only obvious / meant to be obvious to the recipient. It’s not a problem if so.”
💐 was never seen on the screen/scene, I just used it to culturally substitute something else, too delicate to be handled by our plastic keyboards… It’s not hard to follow if you take a look at the “language” I invented, 🍨, 🧊, and a couple of others followed… even with some alien symbols that do not appear on my keyboard at all…. the oblivious , perceived Madame de Staël had no clue when the self-exiled Bonaparte suddenly dropped his 1st “anonymous” advice but nonetheless politely responded… One needs to be courteous even to 👾… .
🍨 is gone rightful, sweetly busy now, can you please give me a bit of more “TO” time 🥰? But what I really want to ramble can’t go public here… 😩
“I’m biased but I think the British humour is brilliant – but also one of the most incredibly difficult ones to ‘access’ for someone who is not from the culture and who has not lived here for a long time. It is very subtle, self-deprecating and wordplay based, but when it’s done well it is brilliant.”
It took me about 2 decades to begin grasping it… Brilliant❗️ Many classical and few modern BBC mini series are on my top list. I check out all the names of songs, artists, movies, shows thrown in LwL to see if I like them… I’ve been quietly (avoid paying tuition) taking my cultural lessons here for a while … who else in my reality has so much time to inform/educate my knucklehead, and where else there are so many eclectic, resourceful, colorful minds in one 👻 Tardis⁉️
Just woke up from another highly revealing dream about y..w, the Unconscious is constantly speaking to me… If unable to chat with a private TO 😩, I may end up scratching my itchy 🖖 ⏳… *joking*….
Heads up… all sorts of information is 🌊 in all 🏞️ … trying to become a more attentive reader… Mentioned before, in my entire life, my slow neural wiring has always delayed important comprehension/enlightenment in dealing with sensibility matters… due to my gigantic cultural ignorance and narcissistic, over self-centered lens… 😊
I have to stop my wild imagination… Later… Have a good day!
Congratulations – I think you really have Wittgensteined me with Madame de Staël’s 💐.
I have tons of ideas what it *might* be, but no real confidence that any of them are right …
Is 💐 anything to do with any of the following?
🟥🥻♟️
🚀
🍪
👨⚕️
🐦🔥
👨🌾
But I get the💡that it can’t come out properly in the 🏙 ⏹️, and 🚜 will do something about that!
🧊,
“Is 💐 anything to do with any of the following?”
Nope, none of them. It’s a ⭕️ I never used in my over 2000 🗒️ to 🔴 🥻♟️…
If 🫵 🈶 ⌚️, 🔎 📝📑🗒️ 💠 L’🅰️m🅾️🅾️ 🤟 from san 🈷️ shi qi 🌞 🕑 san 🈷️ er shi yi ☀️ …
“I think you really have Wittgensteined me with…”
What could I do in an open space….❓ As you have said, we all need to respect every individual limerent’s sensitivities, right ⁉️
“and 🚜 will do something about that!”
I think it’s 🕰️…
🚜,
My dream of early this morning, the Unconscious, once more came to aid/balance the tipped conscious mind —
Remember what I said to 😎 🍫 a couple days ago that the last week of the review on my xLE had tipped it into a more positive side or a bit brighter color? Boom! Two days afterward, my Unconscious gave me a very cold narrative and LE fearful emotions… The most absurd narrative involved ET and Mom… no conscious mind could ever imagine or fabricate such a biological impossibility — Mom was pregnant with LO5’s gay father (out of closet after the two grown kids), not her own LO or my Dad….
Now, the color of this LE is tipped over to dark gray, not totally homeostatic yet, but will be soon, I hope.
The Unconscious is benevolently powerful!
Have a marvelous Sunday afternoon and evening with your SO!
🚜,
Oh, ET part of the dream was that I tried to chase him in the old campus building (totally unrealistic) to tell him about Mom’s bizarre news. When seeing me coming, he left his post, a desk, on a huge, wall-to-wall bright red-carpeted floor (like a front hall of an Opera House) and kept walking faster ahead of me. When I was about to catching him, he suddenly disappeared in a series, meandering lab rooms. Some old colleagues around were quietly laughing at me sideways….
When at last I caught him at a cafeteria door, he coldly told me he’s moving to Egypt soon for good, and walked out of the door fast. I did not have time to tell him anything about Mom’s news.
Then I woke up… and confess to you all as my collective TO 😊
🍑,
“Boom! Two days afterward, my Unconscious gave me a very cold narrative and LE fearful emotions…”
And there it goes again … the unconscious keeping the conscious in stasis.
It is little wonder it takes so long on the tail of these LEs when we have that cycle happening
🧊 🍸,
Precisely!
Words and written discussions are powerful (more so than a quiet journaling). If a matter or a person becomes a topic for a while in one direction, then they affect one’s conscious mind in that direction. When the balance is lost, the Unconscious would re-adjust/re-balance the logical mind through dream narratives, sometimes so preposterous!
Yet, you see, it worked so obviously and successfully in the matter of my long LE tail…
For future unknowns, ridiculous dream narratives often show the dreamer’s anxiety, fear, sadness, etc. There is little fact or specific conscious mindset for the Unconscious to balance…. The dreamer’s mind is left only with wondering afterwards…
I love my dreams, even it’s anxious, sad, and fearful before waking up…
🍑,
Quick observation about the ET part of the dream – I wonder if it was serving in your subconscious to remind you of his unavailability. Those bits of dreams where we can’t quite reach the person, or when we do it’s a disappointment, are so so common (NC-25ish years LO2 still features in my dreams like that occasionally).
On the availability point, I found it a bit strange that when you talked about it with Marcia, both of you used the expression “I’ve found someone else” when describing how ET might have better handled the ‘pet’ situation with you.
That expression is culturally odd for me because he had someone anyway (his wife was his someone) – I’d only say that expression to an SO if I was leaving her for someone else, for example.
This is mainly a linguistic point but slightly a more existential one too. I think I get where you were going with it, but in trying to locate it in my world, it would be like me telling MFF “I have replaced you as my side interest” (which by the by I couldn’t do, as I have never told her that she is that to me).
🧊 🍹,
“Quick observation about the ET part of the dream – I wonder if it was serving in your subconscious to remind you of his unavailability. “
Unavailability is not the primary issue, since in a dream, anything is possible… I saw the old Mom with a 6 month-old pregnancy tummy❗️
“Those bits of dreams where we can’t quite reach the person, or when we do it’s a disappointment, are so so common”
In the dream, he was available sitting on an empty desk as a receptionist or promotion salesman; but then he was trying to get away from me (my perception in the later part of LE), then so coldly spoke with me (in reality he was never cold, not even 10 times lesser), and finally ignited that familiar sense of “being abandoned” while telling me he’ll be gone for life….
So in this dream, the Unconscious worked out to remind/warn me what LE pains I had been through, so I would NOT want to fall back there.
Upon waking up I thought, even DrL tells me that it’s okay now to send him greetings, I would NOT do it! I’ll NOT take this kind of attitude. 😡 The Unconscious worked to kill the increased warmth towards LE after I chatted with 😎 🍫 .
“On the availability point, I found it a bit strange that when you talked about it with Marcia, both of you used the expression “I’ve found someone else” when describing how ET might have better handled the ‘pet’ situation with you.”
Marcia is right that I was put on a parallel level not with SO, but with the Pet, which made me refused again and again his hint for a further “alternative friendship” (his words in writing), my pride was hurt. But as Marcia analyzed it, I did refuse to go PA first…
“That expression is culturally odd for me because he had someone anyway (his wife was his someone) – I’d only say that expression to an SO if I was leaving her for someone else, for example.”
That’s the difference between you and ET, who had his own marital issues thus probably behaved the way he did. Nonetheless, he would NEVER leave his 25 yrs SO and family.
“I think I get where you were going with it, but in trying to locate it in my world, it would be like me telling MFF “I have replaced you as my side interest” (which by the by I couldn’t do, as I have never told her that she is that to me).”
ET never said or hinted such a line, he tried hard to lie about his new interest…. that’s when I began serious NCs…
Now just hypothetically speaking: If you know MFF was 7-8 degree in LE with you, so were you with her; and your SO was perceived by you to have her own EA going with her old flame…. what would you do?
No obligation to answer my question.
“If you know MFF was 7-8 degree in LE with you, so were you with her; and your SO was perceived by you to have her own EA going with her old flame…. what would you do?
I pretty much know why you’re asking. Before I answer, I don’t think I’m that representative of men. I don’t think I have a PA in me (I would feel too much guilt/moral trangression, never even kissed a girl while in relationship with another). I was in an EA with MFF anyway, to all intents and purposes. So it wouldn’t have changed much – might have intensified the EA.
I would confront SO if I thought she was in an EA and might well ask her to end the EA. And yes, I recognise my double standard there, although I did eventually convince myself to end mine and saw it through … and that would have happened earlier if SO had confronted me – to all 3 people’s benefit.
Like I say, many men might cave in and have a PA if they had that dilemma.
I didn’t know ET called it an ‘alternative friendship’. That could mean many things but the implication in it is quite thick.
🌱 🌽,
After you honestly and reasonably talk with your SO, and she denies any EA (or possible PA) and continues a weekly dinner (for a year or two) with her xbf under the benevolent intention to help ease out his psychological stresses?
Meanwhile, you have some sort of midlife crisis, or emotional or physical needs, or issues with SO in your BR 🚻 ?
“… under the benevolent intention to help ease out his psychological stresses?”
It would be crucial whether or not I believed this intention. If it was purely benevolent and I believed her, then it may not classify as an EA in my book – I might believe SO was just genuinely being a good person. Then I would try to ‘hold’ the situation – may not love it, but live with it, see how it plays out.
For me, if I didn’t believe her (if I thought she was in an affair), then the choice becomes one of whether / when to end the relationship, not when to have a PA myself. That would be hypothetically a much easier choice, though, than if children were involved.
Happy Monday 😊
🚜,
“It would be crucial whether or not I believed this intention.”
After 25 years of seamless tie and after the children gone, would you trust or choose to trust such an “intention” and the ongoing carryon of such a noble intention? and then try your independent solutions to quiet your wondering body and mind?
I had a little fun to play Wittgenstein’s game for Humpty and Alice —
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall.
Humpty Dumpty madly fall
into Alice’s innocent ball.
All the King’s houses and all the King’s men
Couldn’t take Humpty Dumpty out of the Hall.
I slept so long last night, and only woke up at 2pm, truly sunk in a Proustian bed… 😊
Enjoy your Monday evening!
🍑,
🎩🌽🧡 🥚📝 🎮🆒️❕️
“… Couldn’t take Humpty Dumpty out of the Hall.”
🤔🥚🍳 🧯
“If 🫵 🈶 ⌚️, 🔎 📝📑🗒️ 💠 L’🅰️m🅾️🅾️ 🤟 from san 🈷️ shi qi 🌞 🕑 san 🈷️ er shi yi…”
✅️😊 🎩🧠 ✅️1️⃣0️⃣0️⃣🤏 🦜🆒️🧧📝❕️❗️🤝
⏳️ 🌽🏃♂️🏃♂️🏃♂️✌️ 🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️ 🕰 🍹📖🔎
➕️ 🚜🗣👨⚕️&✅️ 📭😊 🔜✍️
“would you trust or choose to trust such an “intention” and the ongoing carryon of such a noble intention? and then try your independent solutions to quiet your wondering body and mind?”
I would, but I’m not representative I don’t think.
Ok … I may be getting there about Napolean’s 💐…
😎 🍫 🤲 🕐 🤟 👉 ❓❓🕐 🎉 🕰️, ⤵️ 👁️ 😵💫 🌀⚫️ …⏳ 🧠 💡 🌙 🌙 🕰️…
🕰️ 🤞, 🤷🏻♀️ ❓❓
📧❓
The Everyday Enchantment of Music
Mark Strand
1934 –2014
A rough sound was polished until it became a smoother sound, which was polished until it became music. Then the music was polished until it became the memory of a night in Venice when tears of the sea fell from the Bridge of Sighs, which in turn was polished until it ceased to be and in its place stood the empty home of a heart in trouble. Then suddenly there was sun and the music came back and traffic was moving and off in the distance, at the edge of the city, a long line of clouds appeared, and there was thunder, which, however menacing, would become music, and the memory of what happened after Venice would begin, and what happened after the home of the troubled heart broke in two would also begin.
*****
A death always leads to a new birth, on the same soil bed….
The water in a river never remains same, in the next second…
🐦🔥
The End Is the Beginning
Mónica Gomery
Don’t leave, she said to me last night. Her name means Light To Me.
Don’t leave this dooming feeling. Don’t jump. Her name means Unjump
The Darkness. Staying is a kind of writing, she said. Writing is a kind
of loving. Loving sticks a widget into the machinery of doubt.
Sticks it out. She knows what I’m afraid of. Biggest grief.
Tunnel of unforgiveness. She knows stay and say are two siblings
walking home in the rain. And I do wonder how to love without
dissolving, how to stay without unloving. Isaac Luria in the 16th
century argued God wrought the world because without it, God had no
expression for compassion, generosity. God might have been a giver,
but how can anyone cup a hand around another hand
if there’s no other
yet, just infinite beforeness. Knock knock, the lemon squeezer says,
Who’s there, says infinite beforeness, It’s me,
the stainless steel responds,
I’m God, you’re citrus, let’s start a world. Nobody’s a mother without
somebody to blame. Nobody’s born unwedged between dirt and sky.
It takes something round to wrap round something round, press down,
press hard and love comes out. THIS ISN’T HOW LOVING GOES,
I’m yelling at Isaac Luria’s grave, blue as a thwack of sky on stolen
land. The thing about staying, she’s saying, is staying
drapes itself over everything
you’re scared of. Like a blanket full of button holes, and stars wedged
into them. The thing about blankets is they’re less threatening
than love.
Her care pins me to a place called Here. Her name means Generous
To Me, and Pressing Hard With Buttons. I’m trying to say Yes
to the holes
where buttons go. Yes to the cupped hand before fruit, to the sting
of juice. I could live here between dirt and sky, grow a garden
in the storm drain. I could grow the garden here—Edenic river
of honey, milk, river of balsam, of wine. I could spread out here
and stay. Pin my fears to paper, regret and what they call
“The Great Friendship Recession.” THIS ISN’T HOW
LOVING GOES! I’m yelling just before the world
begins. The world gets made each morning.
And we’ve emptied all the garden’s fields.
*******
“The World gets made each morning.
And we’ve emptied all the garden’s fields.”
Snow
I’m interested to hear your opinion on this woman’s video being that you are from the East. I wonder if these things are universal or mutually exclusive to Western culture. I’ve been watching this lady’s videos and I absolutely love them. I love hearing womens’ opinions on men’s behavior and fashion. Would love to hear from you.
https://youtu.be/lQfwC20fLbc?si=tsN72IhK8UItEhVF
🎩 🥃,
I think what the clip summarizes are accurate; it takes every 3 second to feel if a man is attractive, and 5 seconds to if Glimmer would click in your head…
Another thing a woman (co-worker) would notice is if you’d take two seconds to quietly say a “hi” or just head-nod a “hi” with a relaxed smile to her, when you are in the middle of chatting with others, particularly when you’re actually talking… If you do habitually, she may fall in LE with you, whether you want it or not… 😀
Typo: “and 5 seconds to sense if Glimmer clicks in some women’s head…”
If a woman is obviously younger than the man and he may address her “morning young lady” is that common or acceptable? I get differing viewpoints even here in the west.
Good morning 🎩 🍺,
If you going to address one woman/men, then address them all (try to remember their first name) with the same amount of courtesy, regardless their perceived age or positive, a director or a maintenance crew member. We see it easily and remember it “permanently”.
IMO, You’d say, “Morning + name”, not “Morning young lady”, right? Even from a macho culture and personally appreciate courtesy, I don’t want to hear “young lady”, for (a), if I’m in my 20s/30s, then there is no need to use “young”; (b), If I’m 50+/60+, then “young lady” would sound like a mockery (unless it’s meant to be a fond teasing between close parties) ; (c), directly using one’s first name (in this culture, not some others) makes it personal close/familiar.
In many Asian countries, when a man pays a little more attention to obviously younger women, it’s automatically frowned upon, innocent or guilty, suspected to have a strong pedophile motive/instinct, even if you address them with a respectable suffix, “Miss”, “Lady”, “Madam…” . So men take extra care to manage their greetings and facial expressions, if they can help it.
One’s eyes often reflexively tell a lot….
Btw, my oldest xLO my Glimmer naturally landed on is 10 yrs older and the youngest one 9 yrs younger…
Sorry about incorrect auto-corrections and grammar…
I need to take my morning coffee now…
Adam,
“If a woman is obviously younger than the man and he may address her “morning young lady” is that common or acceptable? I get differing viewpoints even here in the west.”
Personally, I love “young lady.” Call me “young lady”! Call me “miss.” I know my days of being a young lady and a miss are long gone but … it’s still a little flattering. A maybe just a touch cheeky. ” I particularly like when a much younger man calls me “miss.” I get a kick out of it.
I’m with Snow here. Call me by my name, and show me the most respect. I also agree with her reasoning – treat everyone with the same courtesy. We will notice!
If you would greet men of ages 6 to 60 “young gentleman”, then by all means continue to call women of the same ages similarly (young lady).
I guess I was not clear. I meant it a setting where you don’t know the woman’s name. Like a cashier or waitress or bartender. And a man is just trying to be polite. Like Marcia said with miss or ma’am. Im just wondering as a 48 year old man if “thank you young lady” is frowned on? Ive already been told “gal” is a sexist reference to a woman.
“I particularly like when a much younger man calls me “miss.” I get a kick out of it.”
Well Id start calling you Miss Marcia but MJ may get cross with me. 😁
🎩 🍺,
Oh, in a public place! Yes, dressing with “Miss”, “Madam”, is fine even in Asian cultures, but still without that adjective “young”. Some countries respect ages.
Personally, I don’t want to be addressed with, “gal”, which seems to be indirectly associated with being naive, girly, inept, inexperienced, or insubstantial….
🍨: How is going with your life and MR? I’m dying for your news, hopefully more cheery ones?
Adam 🎩 🍺,
In this room, I love to be called by YOU, “Miss Snow”… despite some 👻 sounds jealous…
🫂
Miss Snow
I dont get the aversion to gal as you explained your objections. I dont mean it derogatory. It is just a thing I grew up with. For me it is a middle ground between girl and woman. Kinda like “a catchall” term. Better than broad or skirt. And then pf course dame which is only offense in western
culture because of ignorance.
Sir 🎩 🍻!
That’s precisely the subtle difference between NS and NNS in term of feeling language. You can feel “gal”, I can’t sense “gal” in my bones, thus the mind intellectually goes to the word’s superficial association, “gal” ↔️ “girls”.
“Broad” or “skirt” sound “offensive” to me, “dame” even stranger than “gal”….
I don’t know if it’s offensive so much as hopelessly old-fashioned….How old are you again, Adam? Those all sound like slang terms from the 1940s. 😉
Adam,
“Well I’d start calling you Miss Marcia but MJ may get cross with me. 😁”
Don’t clear it with him! He doesn’t own me! 🙂 Miss Marica is fine.
I don’t mind gal. I don’t find it sexiest but just, as Serial wrote, kind of old-fashioned.
I think someone tossing out “dame” or “skirt” could be funny, depending on context.
The only word I abhor is “mam.”
Tbh, I’m also not big on “cutie”(though it doesn’t offend me). I think of cute as a term for a dog. “Hottie” I’ll take. 🙂
I agree with Marcia on “hottie” – I’ll take that.
Any more takers and we’ll convince Adam on starting using that! 😉
Trifles,
“I agree with Marcia on “hottie” – I’ll take that. Any more takers and we’ll convince Adam on starting using that! 😉”
Lol.
I’ll quote the Sting song “We’ll Be Together.”
“You can call me, baby. You can call me anything you want.” 🙂
I’ve noticed a trend here that many women in hospitality call men who they serve ‘darling’, ‘love’, ‘sweetheart’, ‘my lovely’, ‘hun’, even ‘babe’.
This happens to me with women staff from much older, to the same age, to a bit younger than me. It isn’t an age thing and it isn’t a flirtation thing. Most men mildly enjoy it or it least find it inoffensive.
However – the other way round, men can’t risk calling women pet names like that, or we might get called for harassment. Older men (55/60+) might get away with it, as the woman will just think “he’s old fashioned”, but not any younger.
I’d love to get people’s views on this – particularly the LwL ladies, but from the men I’d love to know if it’s the same in your cultures.
Why is it OK one way round but not the other? (I really hope I am not poking a hornet’s nest with this question). How would the women here feel if those terms were used towards them, and does it make a difference if the man doing it is younger, same, older? Or if he’s hot or not?
Trucker,
“I’ve noticed a trend here that many women in hospitality call men who they serve ‘darling’, ‘love’, ‘sweetheart’, ‘my lovely’, ‘hun’, even ‘babe’.”
They’re hoping to get tips.
“Why is it OK one way round but not the other? (I really hope I am not poking a hornet’s nest with this question).”
Maybe because, as a general rule, women are still in positions of financial or professional subordination to a man, so it can be seen as condescending. Also, men don’t seem to mind being sexualized like women do. (If someone would see being called “hun” as sexualizing)
” How would the women here feel if those terms were used towards them, ”
It depends on context, but generally it doesn’t bother me. Sometimes even women will call me “hun.” Maybe a server at a restaurant.
“and does it make a difference if the man doing it is younger, same, older?”
Not really. But you’re right in that, if he’s older, I’ll think he’s old fashioned.
“Or if he’s hot or not?”
I mean … isn’t it the same for men? It catches your attention more if the person saying it is hot?
Marcia,
“I mean … isn’t it the same for men? It catches your attention more if the person saying it is hot?”
I’m a limerent, remember. If she’s hot, I of course automatically assume she wants marriage and 2.5 children
(spoiler – I lied – I don’t – your theory about tips is better)
Trucker,
“your theory about tips is better”
I think it’s more than a theory. It’s why men should never hit on women in any kind of customer service/service profession.
“I particularly like when a much younger man calls me “miss.” I get a kick out of it.”
@Marcia,
Miss Marcia it is. You can pretend I’m a much younger man because I look it.. Btw, this has been cleared with Adam.. 😆
“MJ may get cross with me. 😁”
@Adam,
Never Brother.. She was your Friend here before she was mine. I feel almost like the 3rd wheel. Just putting up with my nonsense..
As per your conversation, when LF and I were still talking, every once in awhile I would call her “Miss” and then by her last name (“Miss LF”.) The first time I did it, she gave me the craziest wtf kinda look and then said, “What’s up with that? You tryin to be my Dad or something??” I said “You wish I was your Dad. I’m gonna set you straight and get you in line with the program.. Miss!!
It was a good laugh.. 🤣
Many women in hospitality call men who they serve ‘darling’, ‘love’, ‘sweetheart’, ‘my lovely’, ‘hun’, even ‘babe’.”
I’m not necessarily opposed to this, but it’s not a turn on and I won’t tip any better or worse based upon it.. It doesn’t matter if she’s under 30 either.
Miss Marcia
*looks around for MJ*
Don’t worry young lady I always treat you gals the way a man should. You broads are what make life worth living. There’s nothing better than a gal in a skirt. Darling.
Darling and sugar are what I call my wife.
And yes if some older (or not) want to sexualize by some pet name, than you go on sister, Imma love it.
MJ,
“You can pretend I’m a much younger man because I look it.”
Sure. 🙂
“Btw, this has been cleared with Adam.. 😆”
Lol
“She was your Friend here before she was mine. I feel almost like the 3rd wheel. Just putting up with my nonsense..”
I probably would like Adam better if the three of us met. He’s married. 🙂 (Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.)
“The first time I did it, she gave me the craziest wtf kinda look and then said, “What’s up with that? You tryin to be my Dad or something??”
“I love it when you call me Big Poppa. ” 🙂
Adam,
“Don’t worry young lady I always treat you gals the way a man should. You broads are what make life worth living. There’s nothing better than a gal in a skirt. Darling.”
LOL. Ok, Sweet Cheeks. Is that sexualizing you? 🙂
MJ,
“I’m not necessarily opposed to this, but it’s not a turn on and I won’t tip any better or worse based upon it. ”
That’s because you’re cheap. 🙂
But I was thinking it’s not just pet names but maybe being super nice to you. Customer service workers are paid to be nice to the customers.
MJ
I think Miss Marcia and I have a love/hate relationship so I think she favors you. I keep bringing up a post she said way back when I first started posting here that she likes to swiftly kick me in the nuts for recalling repeatedly.
Now you get between me and Miss Lovisa…. She was my transference
“I love it when you call me Big Poppa. ” 🙂
@Marcia,
That sounds disgusting as f—!! No freaking way is any Woman EVER saying that to me.. It just sounds wrong on every account..
Like Diddy wanted Kassy to call him Pop Pop, because that’s what she called her Grandfather..
What a piece of $#!+!!
MJ,
“That sounds disgusting as f—!! No freaking way is any Woman EVER saying that to me.. It just sounds wrong on every account.”
It’s a lyric from a song by Biggie. It was supposed to be funny.
Adam,
“I think Miss Marcia and I have a love/hate relationship so I think she favors you.”
Are you two my only options? 🙂
” I keep bringing up a post she said way back when I first started posting here that she likes to swiftly kick me in the nuts for recalling repeatedly.”
Why do you keep bringing this up? I apologized at least twice for not wording it better.
Miss Marcia
You shouldn’t apologize. You spoke the truth when I needed to hear it but didn’t know it at the time. That’s why I respect you as a lady. No hold bars. You say it like it should be.
“That’s because you’re cheap. 🙂”
@Marcia,
Not cheap. Just frugal.
Remember I’m pro Union.. 😆
“Customer service workers are paid to be nice to the customers.”
But what happens if we sense a dynamic shift and that nice-ness is perceived as flirtation? Like if a personal question is asked by them or a time I would need to see them after they get off, in order to see something through.
(Like matter of factly here. Nothing sexual related..) Is it ok to shoot my shot and then see if I get rejection?
I mean how do we know if people that are in customer service related jobs, are actually there to meet other people for more than just offering nice customer service?
Adam,
“You shouldn’t apologize. You spoke the truth when I needed to hear it but didn’t know it at the time. That’s why I respect you as a lady. No hold bars. You say it like it should be.”
Well, I still could have been a little softer with you. For that, I am sorry.
MJ,
“Not cheap. Just frugal.
Remember I’m pro Union.. 😆”
Me, too, baby. 🙂
“But what happens if we sense a dynamic shift and that nice-ness is perceived as flirtation?”
They might flirt with you to get a tip.
” Like if a personal question is asked by them or a time I would need to see them after they get off, in order to see something through. Is it ok to shoot my shot and then see if I get rejection?”
Did see bring it up or did you? I’d say maybe shoot your shot if she starts throwing out the time she gets off and what are you doing later (this is an example) ? But I’d make sure she was making it very obvious before I’d try to push it further.
If she says “it’s nice to see you” because you go into a place often … maybe not.
“I think Miss Marcia and I have a love/hate relationship so I think she favors you”
“She likes to swiftly kick me in the nuts for recalling repeatedly.”
@Adam,
Well gee I hope she’s not favoring me. You’re the younger/married/un-available one.. Her limerence type.. 🙂
I think it’s because your choice of words/vocabulary sometimes. Those older, not often used words you pull out seem to get under her skin and she likes to call you on it. Words that nobody use anymore. Which I get an absolute kick out of. Think you called jeans “dungarees” one time or something similar and she called you out on it. I came to your defense and told her to relax. Because at least you weren’t referring to the microwave as the “radar range”..
MJ,
“Well gee I hope she’s not favoring me. You’re the younger/married/un-available one.. Her limerence type.. 🙂”
Ha! Actually, my most recent LO was a couple of years older.
“Think you called jeans “dungarees” one time or something similar and she called you out on it. I came to your defense and told her to relax. Because at least you weren’t referring to the microwave as the “radar range”..”
He says things like “davenport,” “pocketbook” and “marlarkey.” 🙂
@Marcia
“LOL. Ok, Sweet Cheeks. Is that sexualizing you? 🙂”
That depends on which cheeks you’re referring to. 😉
“He says things like “davenport,” “pocketbook” and “marlarkey.” 🙂”
@Marcia,
Davenport.. Lmfao! 🤣That’s the word that was on the tip of my tongue and I couldn’t remember it..
Then again, I say “hogwash” or “skullduggery” now and then too.. 😂😂
Serial,
“That depends on which cheeks you’re referring to. 😉”
If I have to clarify which ones, I’m already losin’. 🙂
MJ,
“Davenport.. Lmfao! 🤣That’s the word that was on the tip of my tongue and I couldn’t remember it.”
Also “nylons” and “satchel” and I’ve even seen a “pshaw” or two. 🙂
“Then again, I say “hogwash” or “skullduggery” now and then too.. 😂😂”
You do know that movies have sound now, right? 🙂
Sober Adam reading drunk Adam’s posts …. always a “sobering” wake up call lol
Miss Marcia, that you hung in that long in that conversation makes me feel better. Cause if it weren’t forever engraved on the internet I wouldn’t probably remember it.
I’ve never been called “sweet cheeks” so I am not sure I call it sexualizing. But I have been called “hun” “sweetie” or “dear” by mostly women older than me.
As far as someone who inquired about the difference between pet names for men or woman and the age difference …. it is mostly because in the US women have way more agency than men. A woman sexualizing a man is going to be overlooked because most men will not voice an objection. Whereas women can feel even the slightest uncomfortably and turn it on it’s head. Even as simply as “young lady” or holding the door open for her. People for the most part are terrible at reading intent before they get offended.
And in all fairness lots of men don’t do nice things for a woman for the right reasons. It’s why I had a “crush” on her because she was beautiful and young and I am an old man. Not that I enjoyed doing nice things for her (and all my female co-workers) limerence aside.
Adam/Sweet Cheeks,
“I’ve never been called “sweet cheeks” so I am not sure I call it sexualizing. ”
It’s basically saying you have a nice butt. It’s up to you do decide if you think that’s sexualizing. 🙂
“A woman sexualizing a man is going to be overlooked because most men will not voice an objection.”
But don’t you think that’s also because men aren’t sexualized anywhere near as much (or at all) and so being sexualized doesn’t bother them ?
“Even as simply as “young lady” or holding the door open for her. People for the most part are terrible at reading intent before they get offended.”
We’ve talked about this before. I love a man getting the door. It’s definitely something I notice. I was about to walk into a building the other day, and a couple was in front of me. The man held the door for her and then also for me. I thought that was lovely.
My generation saw it as a sign of respect; newer ones apparently see it as infantilizing. I still appreciate it, and also see it as something humans do for each other. If I see a man coming up behind me, I can hold the door for him!
Snow, thanks for asking. Everything is going annoyingly well. We’ve taken our PDA tour around town and I’ve even met some of his family (we’re just over a month in…). I was hesitant at first to meet them so quickly, but it went well and felt pretty laid back.
To keep from nauseating all of you, I have to also say it’s not all roses in Trifles’ garden. I’ve dealt with some disappointments related to work and family (nothing major). The flourishing of one area does however soften the blow of those. Just like limerence does… 🤔 But such is life, I suppose.
🍨,
“But such is life, I suppose.“
Yes, it is precisely, with sometimes peachy, pink, white; sometimes gray, blue and black; and sometimes all colors mixed up and tossed up and down…
Keeping going without too much high expectations, I know you’re doing it very well….
Here’s something I’ve been pondering about the man I’ve been seeing for a month and a half… I’m afraid I might be dealing with a limerent. Or a love addict. He has let me know of his feelings toward me many times. He claims that he is just very in tune with his emotions these days and wants to share them honestly with me.
I’m not one to fall for love bombing. On the contrary, I’m quite immune. And he’s acknowledged to me that he knows he might scare me off, but that it’s important for him to be honest. So I’m trying to enjoy the attention. He may have been a tad offended when I asked him if he always develops feelings so quickly. He said something along the lines that he doesn’t want to compare but rather focus on his current feelings.
I kind of recognize his behavior from other, earlier suitors (I’m using all these old-fashioned words now, but that describes it the best). It may be because I’m a little introverted and, for lack of a better word, “cool” (T not F)… Some guys, usually the EFxx-types, find me mysterious and probably fill in the mystery with lots of desired qualities that I may or may not possess. Snow, if you’re the same way (minus the T) – you may have experienced similar? At least that just suddenly came to mind when I remembered what you’ve previously shared about “suitors”. (Forgive me if I’m off base.)
But I’ve noticed some “tells” of the big L, the main one being that he’s using me as mood regulation amid some major work stress. He’s admitted as much, though not in so many words. The thing is that he otherwise seems quite stable. (As most limerents and love addicts do, right? 😉)
Anyway, I told him where I am at and that I’m taking things one day at a time. We’ll see how it goes. Like I’ve probably said before (and annoyed some people!), as long as everything is openly on the table, he’s responsible for his feelings, and I’m responsible for mine.
🍨,
“Here’s something I’ve been pondering about the man I’ve been seeing for a month and a half… I’m afraid I might be dealing with a limerent. Or a love addict. “
Oh, no! A mild one or an obsessive one? Degree 1-10 in your eyes?
“He has let me know of his feelings toward me many times. He claims that he is just very in tune with his emotions these days and wants to share them honestly with me.”
Expressing them is not wrong, if he’s fell in love with you. If you really like him, that could be very flattering. I would not mind personally.
“I’m not one to fall for love bombing.”
“Love bombing” in what form? Words or actions? Does he appear logical/cool headed in dealing with other non-romance related matters? Does he talk about other subjects, society, sports, pop cultures, etc… what are your shared interests? What do you chat about with him when getting together?
“On the contrary, I’m quite immune. And he’s acknowledged to me that he knows he might scare me off, but that it’s important for him to be honest. “
Hmmm… I would not pay attention only to his words, but his other behaviors. Could he focus on other topics as if you are just one of his friends? Discussions? Fair debates? Does he show his passions for his hobbies? (You may have to learn to like some of his hobbies — a sign to show our affection!)
“So I’m trying to enjoy the attention. He may have been a tad offended when I asked him if he always develops feelings so quickly.”
I might feel offended, too; it’s a kind of like mocking his feelings for you 😊 I would try to avoid direct talking about feeling-related stuff but keenly observing his mind and emotions, in a more relaxed and non-judgmental manner. Please do appreciate and enjoy whatever he’s giving you now, regardless his motives. Once “here and now” is gone, there would NOT be another same “here and now”.
“He said something along the lines that he doesn’t want to compare but rather focus on his current feelings.”
That’s a form of feeling/living “here and now”. Comparing with what? His previous feelings for previous relationships? That I might ask subtly and lovingly.
“I kind of recognize his behavior from other, earlier suitors (I’m using all these old-fashioned words now, but that describes it the best). “
I used ”suitors” for all my past COO suitors, there is no other terms more appropriate.
“It may be because I’m a little introverted and, for lack of a better word, “cool” (T not F)… “
But no two people are exactly alike, I would use your T to discern MR’s differences from your earlier suitors. If I’m compared constantly to a date’s ex, I’d feel offended. That also shows the immobility of his mind, in categorizing people instead of spotting and appreciating each person’s uniqueness. I would not respect such a fixed mind.
“Some guys, usually the EFxx-types, find me mysterious and probably fill in the mystery with lots of desired qualities that I may or may not possess. “
That’s very possible. But I haven’t dealt with EFxx types much (if any at all), so can’t tell you how and what they could have imagined you (or me in that dynamic).
“Snow, if you’re the same way (minus the T) – you may have experienced similar? “
The majority of people, men and women, introvert or extrovert, found me “mysterious”, since I don’t and can’t open up easily in person (yes in writing), not even with ET. I was just too shy/insecure to show my emotions, but not my mind, in intellectual discussion or debates about specific topics. Every emotion is held within my curious eyes/gazes, which dogs love evidently.
“At least that just suddenly came to mind when I remembered what you’ve previously shared about “suitors”. (Forgive me if I’m off base.)”
My previous suitors when I was younger often forgot who they were in front of me…. My old classmates/suitors seemed still losing their thoughts somewhat while going out in group with me (last summer). So maybe just your presence or your eyes is overwhelming MR and make him nervous/anxious? Have you thought about that? If his F is stronger than T, can you somehow calm him down and then 👁️ his T better?
“But I’ve noticed some “tells” of the big L, the main one being that he’s using me as mood regulation amid some major work stress. He’s admitted as much, though not in so many words.“
That’s natural, I would not fault with him in this. As limerents, we know how we felt at the beginning of “in love”. I used every bit of ET’s existence as my mood regulation.
“The thing is that he otherwise seems quite stable. (As most limerents and love addicts do, right? 😉)”
That’s a hopeful sign! 👍 A true limerent or love addict may not be stable even in other matters. We tended to be totally consumed in our LE affection head.
“Anyway, I told him where I am at and that I’m taking things one day at a time. We’ll see how it goes. “
How did he respond to what you said? Nervous, relaxed, anxious grins, or genuine smiles?
“Like I’ve probably said before (and annoyed some people!), as long as everything is openly on the table, he’s responsible for his feelings, and I’m responsible for mine.”
Very true, but a bit cold-minded/hearted, imo. People with less T (rationality) or more F (sensitivity) could FEEL more hurt. When being with them, should we be more considerate/sensible, trying not to hurt other sides’ feelings, even if you think a romance is not going to work out?
I don’t know. Personally I feel sadder when I ignorantly hurt others (than being hurt myself), especially those who can’t manage their mind and heart like I do mine (with Stoic practice and Vipassana meditation). I can help my own, but not others’ mindsets, which then makes me feel sad or powerless…
Well, let me know how it goes. I really care for you and your story, 🍨 !
🍑, I’m glad to hear you don’t think of these as warning signs but rather just the new relationship euphoria. It means a lot coming from your Stoic mind. And yes, most of the time I’m flattered. It’s just sometimes when I start getting the late night texts that seem to me to be a little over the top… Also, I don’t take flattery well – even genuine flattery, which this seems to be.
“Does he appear logical/cool headed in dealing with other non-romance related matters? (…) Could he focus on other topics as if you are just one of his friends? Discussions? Fair debates?”
Yes, we talk about about a lot of things. That’s the first thing that he said he likes about me – my intelligence/wit. (And I hate blowing my own horn like this by mentioning it.)
“So maybe just your presence or your eyes is overwhelming MR and make him nervous/ anxious”
Actually he very rarely appears nervous. That’s not an issue for him. He’s secure in himself.
“Oh, no! A mild one or an obsessive one? Degree 1-10 in your eyes?” That’s the thing, I really couldn’t say at the moment. Could be a 1 or 2, I hope nothing new comes up that shows that it’s an 8… Probably not obsessive though, because he seems to be able to concentrate on other things.
“How did he respond to what you said (about taking it one day at a time)?”
He responded well, he understands.
Me: “…he’s responsible for his feelings, and I’m responsible for mine.”
You: “Very true, but a bit cold-minded/hearted, imo.”
Don’t worry, I didn’t say it to him. Just to you people here, and not everyone here agrees with my approach.
“Once “here and now” is gone, there would NOT be another same “here and now”.”
That is so well said! I will aim to appreciate it! Thank you for saying it. I guess I’m just not used to this much talk about love and mushy stuff. Especially when I was expecting to encounter only “situationships” in the dating app world!
Marcia,
Let me answer of your questions here (the old ones are getting so long… and a bit scattered… )
“So you did this retreat? How was it to not talk for 10 days? How many people were in the group? “
I did such a retreat three times and volunteered one time (3 days). The size of people, from all walks of life and all races, are from 60-120 depending on the center’s capacity to hold. All men stay in one-side of the building, the women totally separated on another; they don’t encounter on the dining hall (separated by a curtain). In a better facility, you have your own room with independent bathroom; in a lesser one, you share a room with 4 to 6 people in a room with a single bed and a bathroom in a hallway. MA site is the best equipped one I have attended.
In 10-day Nobel Silence practice, you are 🆎 NOT allowed to chat, listen, read, or write anything. (All phones, pens, paper, journal books are collected to put away, no emergency calls) You are not supposed to even look into another mediator’s eyes when encountering them in bathroom or mediating hall— a form of communication. Husbands and wives are NOT allowed to communicate at all during the whole time.
There is one-hour personal consultation time with the teacher right after lunch, so you could ask all your questions and complain about your physical discomforts caused by pure meditations. (Crying, vomiting, having fevers, early departure…). People in active depression, bipolar, etc (taking medication) are not accepted; otherwise, you take your own risks of getting worse.
There is a daily two-hour TV disclosure in the evenings to listen to the founder’s teaching on Vipassana’s principles, philosophy, and practice techniques. No religious hint of any kind. Their vegetarian food is the best in the world, according to me (I help served in the kitchen and saw the recipe book)
Schedule: 1. raise at 4am with a “walking” Gang, mediate 2 hours. 2. Breakfast, 3, mediate all morning with a break (snack). 4. Lunch 5. Consulting time, 5. One-hour silent walk in the woods or a nap. 6. Meditation 8, dinner (for the first-time meditators, only herbal tea for a returning mediator) 9. Disclosure 10, mediation 11, light out at 9pm. Trust me, you won’t feel hungry without that dinner. (I missed more walks)
One’s mind was never “shut down” or quieted down since birth; but in the end of this retreat, one would feel his/her mental sand/dirt/dust has sunk to the bottom of the mental tank. One learns how to observe one’s mind, (lightly) stirred or quiet, without any reactions. If for any physical/mental reasons, one has to leave the retreat half a day earlier, they don’t take any penny from you — because you haven’t benefited from the entire course. They don’t take any donation from any organizations, only the students. Vipassana retreat centers are literally all over the world, you can find them through the link.
If you can afford the time and really want to tame the brain — like a wild horse before it is trained, I highly recommend you try one retreat, 12 days together with the traveling time. (drive or bus, someone will pick you up from a nearby bus stop. )
Marcia,
“I was watching a YouTube video with four behavioral analysts. They said that every time you access a memory, you edit it. I thought that was interesting. “
Yes, I heard similar saying before. I believe it’s true, since our emotional hues at the accessing time somewhat changes a memory, as little as toning it up/down or as much as turning it upside down: “hmmm… I might misunderstand it or misremember it totally wrong…. “ in a better mood or “it’s absolutely diabolical…” when feeling under weather. The longer away one is from an old memory, the further it could be tossed around by our mental and emotional states and its evolvement .
“I’m glad your LE was so beneficial to you. You may be the first poster who wrote their LE was the next best thing to happen to them. “
My baseline of expectation from this first unavailable LE is very low, might be the lowest among all the posts I’ve scanned through (I didn’t have a concept of EA, while PA was not on my mind). When clearly seeing that I could not get what a typical limerent desires — deeply emotional reciprocation, I pondered what benefits I could scavenge out of it, a typical COO mentality — never trash a hard experience, the best teacher.
Then I focused on my “stuff”— the lift-time cptsd, which was unexpectedly cured step by step (the very last step was not from this LE)… What else could be the next best thing, aside from a relationship success? I strongly agree with Lovisa that one needs to appreciate life more in all its aspects, even tiny bit good stuff from bad experiences.
“I just thought about the timeline. It was 8 years. And then when I went complete NC, it was around another 2 to get over it. But by the time I went NC, the LE was much reduced. Still little embers but mostly anger. “
Okay, I’m clear now. It’s about 10 years, one decade, longer than mine, 8 years to finish up. Very little anger, but some regrets in mine….
“Yes, he was the one who was a master at push-pull. The timeline of it was a bit different … my leaving did not directly follow the rejection. He did a little bit of stuff physically, said no to more and then continued to heavily flirt with me. And I got to the point where I’d had enough. Then I left the job. “
Oh, no! He sounded so mean and cruel, and you suffered more than I could imagine… I’m now in tears for your pains… 😢
“Yes, this is what I mean. The difference between chit chat-good acquaintance friends and close friends you talk to about everything. “
Yes, my Russian gf knew about ET and its beginning story. She thought it was ridiculous and I was crazy, and told me to cut it cold turkey.
“I agree with everything you wrote here. I just don’t know that I’ve experienced both the friendship (at least not the kind of friendship you’re talking about) and the romance with a man. “
I saw it experienced in COO but also really rare. It’s an ideal that COO tradition and philosophies have advocated. Myself just envisioned its plausibility in my mind, not in my reality yet.
“All true. There have been many times when another poster has written something from a totally different perspective than mine and gotten my to think beyond my narrow mindset. “
The same happened to me, actually a great deal, especially since I am from the East and still hold some “wried” or socially unfitting thoughts. So eagerly, I’d tried to find out what/wher other ideas are on common topics. (I mentioned before that I’m passionate about comparing the Eastern and Western cultures). Reading newspaper is informative, but very impersonal. Here in LwL, although unprofessional, we get our invidividual responses, so much more engaging and educating in both directions, right?
I often had a need /an urge to verbally express myself since young (no one really bothered to listen to my little busy, sensitive head), which was a primary cause pulling me into the most of xLEs. Such a need is very hard to be met since everyone has their own plate to fill. Here in LwL, without seeing a realistic face (aside from DrL’s) and without necessarily striping off all our psychological clothes under a public light, we are able to frankly share our deep thoughts and sentimentality with few like-minded 👻 👻… I so appreciate it.
“Needing to be “liked by all” …. hmmm. That’s a personality trait that can be tricky. Problematic, even. Because where does the people pleasing end and the person’s real desires/wants begin? “
Exactly! This was one part that puzzled me a great deal. It’s a sign of deep insecurity, but I could not figure out where it came from. While asked, he did not give me any straight answer, but repeated the line twice. This a baffling personality trait I clearly did not share with him.
“Well, that is where we are different. Because I apparently like feeling a little off balance. And part of me hates it. And I think there’s a part of me that enjoys the internal conflict.”
I like/love ideas of conquering internal and external conflicts in my imaginations, but not in reality. Growing up in COO, we could not afford such imaginations without a possible price of paying “our head”. One of traditional COO core philosophies is to defuse internal conflict (inevitable always) so as to obtain inner harmony and true contentment. With only one primary ideology dominating, it’s easier for a “Utopian society” to brainwash its people in pursuing and marching to the same goals.
“But how do you do this with people you are close to, relationships in which there is some built-in level of providing something for each other (spouse, for example)? “
One needs to do this, especially with close friends and spouse! I think that “built-in level” has to be adjusted, reshaped once two people get together or get closer; it will obviously take time.
“Which if what they’re providing is something you don’t want or need? “
Talk, talk, and talk! Communicating your thoughts clearly with them and getting back their reasons for not giving or their inability to give. Clear and honest communication is the only way to get the message across.
“What if you even articulate what you need and they ignore that and just keep providing what THEY want to give you? How do you not feel resentful? “
Not feeling resentful is one TOP Stoical practice: Keep in mind that what others think and do are ALWAYS out of our CONTROL. Even we strive our best to persuade others to change (in any direction), we MAY FAIL (assume 99% of time) . Once such a concept is grounded in the mind, then we would NOT feel resentful. Trust me on this, I’ve practiced it thousands of time, and it worked each time! Otherwise, I would not be able to get of my LE with ET.
Now, not feeling resentful is NOT a final goal. The issue is whether you can, and how you can get what you need.
In COO in such a situation, we would closely examine pros and cons of such a relationship. Do pros weigh more than your particular needs? Is anyway you could compromise without what you need? (I would assume eventually you could very kindly reject to take whatever they want to give you, assuming they’re very smart, sensible, and skillful. If they are not, why do you want to be stuck in the tango?) Can you sustain or even move forward the relationship without such needs?
“Yes, but for once I’d like some big life lesson to actually be positive. Not showing me all my shortcomings. “
Oh, Sis! 😀 no such beneficial “big life lessons” have ever existed in the entire history of the West or East, or shall exist in the future. Remember the pain (the sense of abandonment in this LE had possibly led to my lymphoma development…only lucky it was the least fatal kind.)? I was never confident all my life that others would NOT “abandon” me due to some of my innate or molded shortcomings.
“Over the edge … into obsessive thinking. Lots of anxiety. I’m not comfortable going into all the details in that this is a public website. “
gotcha!
“And what he did … humiliated me. I now I feel like an utter moron. I can’t believe I fell for his crap (by that I mean the things he was saying). “
That’s a very bad luck to bump into such an unkind LO. And our mind in the midst limerence is often faulty, which I can clearly see now.
“Am I ever going to be attracted to someone who’s not an idiot? Obviously it’s me. I’m the common denominator in all of this. “
No, you are not going to with all the learning from LwL. We’ve learned how to choose what to do once we realize we’re emotionally attracted to “an idiot” LO. I’m not trying to preach here but just want to say, we all need to observe and analyze our emotions like a hawk. We limerent type is prone to “wrong” LO attraction that, as you say, might be subconsciously genminated by our unresolved “stuff”. So we closely watch how our residual stuff is affecting our behaviors.
“Well, I think of a glimmer as a strong attraction. Or recognition. Or a moment when someone moves you. But if the limerent doesn’t act on that moment, doesn’t try to befriend the LO, start texting him, start hanging out with him … in other words, doesn’t do anything to ignite things, the glimmer may not turn into limerence. And in those instances, no, I don’t know that anything needs to be revealed. “
I agree with you here totally. I was thinking about the time when you feel and sense that you’re going to slip into a LE, after some “innocent” interactions with LO, obviously; let’s say in the end of harmony period?
[“I have no known fear now…” That’s wonderful. It really is. ]
I have only concerns about possibly, ignorantly hurting others, their feelings or sensitivities, since my sensibility is shaped by the unique personal experiences and a cultural molding, vastly different from majority of Westerners.
You see how much I had to explain to LaR and you (and some others) just to get my intentions, ideas, and purposes crossed… Luckily you (collective) have a very flexible and open mind… not everyone even with a brilliant brain in some aspects — 🆎 no one is knowledgeable or sensible in everything!
“Would you be disappointed if he responded, but very superficially?”
In the recent dream I told LaR, I was. My Unconscious warmed and reminded me the past LE pains. But during the waking hours, I don’t think I’ll be disappointed again. The LE is totally gone, so I’m no longer worried about his thoughts or emotions towards me. That’s how I think and feel now, which hasn’t been tested out yet. There is no need to initiate such a test.
Marcia,
“JI: Yes. I read a review of a movie he was in. The reviewer said he exuded “exhaustive decadence.” So true. He can be so delicious.
I watched almost all his movies, and don’t like his “decadent” but vulnerable roles, “dead ringers”, “Damage”, “Swan in Love”, “French Lieutenant’s women, “Ladies & Gentlemen”, “Bridgehead Revisited”… For some odd reasons (perhaps due to LO1, a poetic, suffering soul), I like see vulnerability in male characters, making them more human or feminine. I don’t care about tough heroes, but heroes who could shred tears.
DDL: Great actor. Depending on the role, he can be sexy. “Phantom Thread.” “The Age of Innocence” (a movie I love)
Yes, very sexy in “Unbearable Lightness of Being”, besides the two movies you mentioned (quite vulnerable in AOI) Again, subtle vulnerability or puzzlement in male characters attracted me. Our life is a never ending, gigantic puzzlement.
Matthew Goody: I’ve only seen him in one thing. “Match Point.” And Jonathan Rhys Myers was the sexy one in that film.
I only saw him “Discovery of Witches” and a little bit in “Downtown Abbey”. He is a lot like ET (in his aura and physique), but less feminine and a bit shorter than the latter.
“I agree. I’m really reading the actual writing, the phrasing and the character development. “
Even as a ESL, I pay attention to what words are used and their multiple connotations/associations. I’m still inadequate to assess and truly appreciate different ways/patterns of arranging words, e.g. why this sentence is better than another when the same meaning is conveyed? Getting superficial and deeper meanings is fun to me — humor and sarcasm . Then, of course the character development of a book.
“There’s usually a difference in what women can recognize in other women and what mean find appealing in women. “
I used to naively think that men and women think, feel, assess and appreciate in similar ways; book readers would understand better other book readers’ mentality, writers would appreciate better other writers’ sentimentality, gender, age, race would not make much differences… Ha, you see, how astronomically wrong I have been‼️
“I think a true connection can overcome differences. “
🆎 absolutely ‼️
“I think I know what you mean. With my family, we chuckle over the anecdotes of kooky relatives and chit chat about every life, but I don’t really know who they are as people.”
It’s universally true that one’s good friends live on an edge of the sky (or even in ghost lands) could be closer than family members in front of their nose.
“I have day nightmares in which they put together a funeral for me … but it’s not my funeral. It’s for someone else. Because they don’t really know me. “
“They” in the dream is your family? Let me see, you are afraid to become a “stranger” to those who are supposed to be close to you, but actually are not? That would be my sadness, too, thus I strive to make qualify friends, that could possibly be closer to me than my family. Having one or two such a friend would suffice, I think and hope.
“Although I don’t watch a lot of Broadway shows.
Me, neither, because I couldn’t get all words in a show, so I just enjoyed the music and the setting. Occasionally, my visitors would take me to one.
[“Here in LwL, I don’t feel a bathtub distance between “close” 👻 👻 although I have no factual knowledge of you… Otherwise, I’d drag you into the scented hot water… ” Not sure what you mean,]
It’s my own metaphor: if a distance between me and my frequent chatting 👻 👻 is bigger than a 🛀 , then I’d set up a 🛁 filled with scented hot water, dump the 👻 👻 in it to relax their nerves, so they’d continue 🫧🧼 chatting… then the distance between the 👻 👻 would be shortened, shorter than a 🛀 again…
I could not help constantly visualize all sorts of images while verbalizing… .😊 — a linguistic habit since my native tongue (NT) is pictorial.
Snow,
“I watched almost all his movies, and don’t like his “decadent” but vulnerable roles, “dead ringers”, “Damage”, “Swan in Love”, “French Lieutenant’s women, “Ladies & Gentlemen”, “Bridgehead Revisited””
This are the roles you don’t like? I love “Damage” and “Brideshead Revisited.” The latter is one of my favorite tv series. Now, that’s a limerent friendship. The one between him and the Sebastian character. And of course the relationship he has with Juliette Binoche in “Damage” is limerence. It’s not the kind of relationship where you move in together and set up housekeeping. And she knows it. He doesn’t, but she does.
“I like see vulnerability in male characters, making them more human or feminine. ”
I like vulnerability but I don’t necessarily want them to be feminine.
“I don’t care about tough heroes, but heroes who could shred tears.”
You can have a tough guy who shows vulnerability. That can be interesting. The contrast.
“Yes, very sexy in “Unbearable Lightness of Being”, besides the two movies you mentioned (quite vulnerable in AOI) ”
I don’t think of him as vulnerable in “Phantom Thread.” He’s very manipulative. He reminds me of this guy I had a big crush on years ago. I could not figure him out.
“Even as a ESL, I pay attention to what words are used and their multiple connotations/associations. I’m still inadequate to assess and truly appreciate different ways/patterns of arranging words, e.g. why this sentence is better than another when the same meaning is conveyed?”
Yes, this is what I’m looking at. How the words are put together, the poetry of the language, the flow, the cadence. Is it easier for you to do in your native language?
“gender, age, race would not make much differences… Ha, you see, how astronomically wrong I have been‼️”
On some level, I like the differences between men and women. The polarity is what makes things hot. 🙂
To be fair, there are men who a lot of women find attractive who I don’t “get” either. Big, beefy, muscled. Generic hunk types do nothing for me. (Hemsworth brothers) I can see that they’re good looking. I just don’t find them interesting.
“It’s universally true that one’s good friends live on an edge of the sky (or even in ghost lands) could be closer than family members in front of their nose.”
I’ve personally experienced this, but at the end of the day, in the U.S. at least, friendship is a secondary relationship.
““They” in the dream is your family?”
Yes
“Let me see, you are afraid to become a “stranger” to those who are supposed to be close to you, but actually are not? ”
No. It’s that they don’t really know me that well. So they would be in charge of putting together some kind of funeral for me (because that’s usually the responsibility of the family, which is considered sacrosanct in the U.S.; there is nothing higher other than maybe religion). But my family doesn’t know me. How could they put on a service for me when they don’t know me? It would be a service for another person. (I admit this is kind of silly. Why would I care? I’ll be dead. :))
“It’s my own metaphor: if a distance between me and my frequent chatting 👻 👻 is bigger than a 🛀 , then I’d set up a 🛁 filled with scented hot water, dump the 👻 👻 in it to relax their nerves, so they’d continue 🫧🧼 chatting… then the distance between the 👻 👻 would be shortened, shorter than a 🛀 again…”
Ah, ok. It reminded me of MJ’s post about wanting to be in Sabrina Carpenter’s bathwater. I thought you were inviting me into the bath with you. I don’t want to do that. 🙂 (I’m teasing you.)
“I could not help constantly visualize all sorts of images while verbalizing… .😊 — a linguistic habit since my native tongue (NT) is pictorial.”
Gotcha
Marcia,
“I love “Damage” and “Brideshead Revisited.” The latter is one of my favorite tv series. “
I love these two most! I own DVDs of them along with some other JI’s movies.
“Now, that’s a limerent friendship. The one between him and the Sebastian character. “
I did not realize it’s a limerent friendship but it could not get out of my mind. So I rewatched it again and again. I thought that dynamic is so endearing and would last long… regardless if he is married or not.
“And of course the relationship he has with Juliette Binoche in “Damage” is limerence. It’s not the kind of relationship where you move in together and set up housekeeping. And she knows it. He doesn’t, but she does.”
The same feelings aroused in me for Damage as for BR. I guess that helpless obsession in him is my definition of “vulnerability”, because the character could not help it. I tried to be Binoche character (with ET) in reality, but found I was simply incapable. I was an obsessed limerent, not a cool-headed LO. I imagine I could be like her only if I am not actively in LE.
“I like vulnerability but I don’t necessarily want them to be feminine.
This kind of vulnerability is “feminine” to me.
“You can have a tough guy who shows vulnerability. That can be interesting. The contrast.
But if they look tough outwardly, then I’m turned off. Nothing they can do to get my affections, not even as characters.
“I don’t think of him as vulnerable in “Phantom Thread.” He’s very manipulative. He reminds me of this guy I had a big crush on years ago. I could not figure him out.”
No, I don’t like “Phantom Thread” (PT), but “Age of Innocence” — he’s vulnerable in it. To be able to deal PT man, one needs patient, strong, enduring nerves. I would not go near him at all.
“Yes, this is what I’m looking at. How the words are put together, the poetry of the language, the flow, the cadence. Is it easier for you to do in your native language?”
Nope, it’s worse in my NL (except the flow), because it is very logical not so poetic. Also COO modern culture and politics only promotes logical thinking, so I could not feel well in COO tongue. I discussed this with LaR. I don’t have poems written in COO tongue.
“On some level, I like the differences between men and women. The polarity is what makes things hot. 🙂”
I’ve been learning my lessons through LwL, it’s real.
“To be fair, there are men who a lot of women find attractive who I don’t “get” either. Big, beefy, muscled. Generic hunk types do nothing for me. (Hemsworth brothers) I can see that they’re good looking. I just don’t find them interesting.”
Exactly same here! My eyes were subconsciously drawn by the air men bring in, not their specific looks. I didn’t know why before, now understand better.
“I’ve personally experienced this, but at the end of the day, in the U.S. at least, friendship is a secondary relationship.”
I’ve realized it more and more, sadly… 🙁
“No. It’s that they don’t really know me that well. So they would be in charge of putting together some kind of funeral for me… But my family doesn’t know me. How could they put on a service for me when they don’t know me? It would be a service for another person. (I admit this is kind of silly. Why would I care? I’ll be dead. :))
Gotcha. Your unconscious knows the dynamic of your family very well. I wouldn’t care much about post death, but the present living, “here and now” — talking to you!
“Ah, ok. It reminded me of MJ’s post about wanting to be in Sabrina Carpenter’s bathwater. I thought you were inviting me into the bath with you. I don’t want to do that. 🙂 (I’m teasing you.)
No, I would not invite a woman into 🛁, but a bf for sure. LO5 jumped in, although he hated bath. You see, hot water really helps ease one’s anxiety and tension.
Remember the true story I told here a while ago (maybe you were off LwL): in a very safe, private estate, I jumped into a small warm pool/jacuzzi (no drinking at all), completely naked (by the pool’s rule); then four other men (one of them was my Lim pet) jumped into, and we stood in distance. No one talked. LO4.5 with other two guys were standing outside the pool watching…. No women from the group came out of the house to join or watch.
It lasted about 10 minutes or so, under a bright mood light near a beach, so surreal…. 😊 that’s my adventurous streak fully demonstrated.
Snow,
“I love these two most! I own DVDs of them along with some other JI’s movies.”
Speaking of British series from the early ’80s, have you seen “The Jewel in the Crown”? One of my absolute favorites. The character of Hari Kumar. I had such a crush on the actor who played him when I was young. Art Malik.
“I did not realize it’s a limerent friendship but it could not get out of my mind. So I rewatched it again and again. I thought that dynamic is so endearing and would last long… regardless if he is married or not.”
It can’t last long. Sebastian is an alcoholic and all but totally self-destructs. Oh, I love Anthony Andrews. What a great performance. Do you remember when Sebastian and Charles go to Venice to visit Sebastian’s’ father? The father’s girlfriend talks to Charles about his friendship with Sebastian. I think she may even call it a “romantic friendship.” But she implies it’s something you grow out of.
“I guess that helpless obsession in him is my definition of “vulnerability”, because the character could not help it.”
Oh, the scene where they first meet. Swoon! 🙂 I find her so interesting in that role. She’s so very French in the role. French sexuality is so under the surface, subtle, mysterious. I don’t think an American actress could have played that role. Americans are too obvious.
” I tried to be Binoche character (with ET) in reality, but found I was simply incapable. I was an obsessed limerent, not a cool-headed LO. ”
I’m the same way. I wish I could be the more detached one. The only way I’ve ever been able to do that is if I’m not into the person that much. And where’s the fun in that?
“This kind of vulnerability is “feminine” to me.”
Oh, ok. Gotcha.
“But if they look tough outwardly, then I’m turned off. Nothing they can do to get my affections, not even as characters.”
I watched a movie with Steve McQueen the other day. I had never seen him in anything. He looked like a tough guy, but he was very sweet and emotive with his co-star, played by Natalie Wood. I could see why he was a big star.
No, I don’t like “Phantom Thread” (PT), but “Age of Innocence” — he’s vulnerable in it.
I just watched the scene in “Age of Innocence” where they disclose to each other. My goodness, is that a sexy scene. And nobody takes their clothes off!
“To be able to deal PT man, one needs patient, strong, enduring nerves. I would not go near him at all.”
There’s always some ridiculous fantasy, with that type of man, who has a new woman every year (or something like that), that you’ll be the one to capture him completely. Of course, that’s not possible.
“My eyes were subconsciously drawn by the air men bring in, not their specific looks. ”
Me, too. I certainly notice attractive men, but I’m very rarely drawn to someone who is generically handsome.
” I wouldn’t care much about post death, but the present living, “here and now” — talking to you!”
You’re right. I’m making up stuff to worry about. 🙂
“It lasted about 10 minutes or so, under a bright mood light near a beach, so surreal…. 😊 that’s my adventurous streak fully demonstrated.”
So you are a little impulsive. 🙂
I wasn’t naked, but I do remember going to a party once and suddenly realizing I was the only woman in the hot tub with four men. That was kind of a cool moment. 🙂
” I understand and envy that kind of strong, almost mysterious mental & spritual bonding; it can possibly last for an eternity. ”
It can’t last forever. Not in my experience. It’s usually very grounded in place and time. Where you both are in your life. And then one or both of you has a big life change, and the friendship either fades to a less intense version or it dies.
“How do I get my physical or sensual/sensuous needs met? From another person aside from the platonic LO?”
Yes. I’m just not sure you can have a limerent friendship and an SO at the same time.
Marcia,
“Yes. I’m just not sure you can have a limerent friendship and an SO at the same time.”
So can I read from this that you’ve got your head a bit more around the idea that friendship and ‘feelings’ / limerence can blur, than when we discussed it before in relation to my situation?
But – in agreement with you, I am still waiting to see the evidence from any story on LwL that a limerent friendship and an SO can co-exist happily for any length of time. I am definitely not the exception to that rule, in case if I’ve ever sounded like I think I am. I have a wider and less limerence-coloured view of it now, and I couldn’t hold both at the same time.
The situation only seriously creaked in my head after 18 months, but it was a problem long before that, just one I was good at self-denying.
LAR,
“So can I read from this that you’ve got your head a bit more around the idea that friendship and ‘feelings’ / limerence can blur, than when we discussed it before in relation to my situation?”
I think we’re talking about two different things.
I’m talking about a friendship. There’s no sexual intent. No attraction. On either side. Sex is never an issue. But it’s limerent in the sense that it’s very intense. And close.
Were you not attracted to your LO? I thought you wrote you were from the start.
I’ve had what I would now call 3 limerent friendships as an adult (maybe 4). (I’m not counting high school.) Two with gay men. One with a woman. Sex was never on the table. Nobody wanted it to be.
Went on vacation with two of them (separately). Slept in the same bed. Could you have done that, comfortably, with your LO?
Marcia,
Yes, I was attracted to my LO and have always been open here about that. ‘Friendship’ to me was like a next-best option, given I knew I wouldn’t act on the attraction.
What I’m less clear about is how any friendship can be ‘limerent’ with no attraction? Surely limerence is about attraction / the wish to pair bond (or have sex, if I put it more plainly) with the LO?
I mean sure, there are many emotionally intense friendships (same and opposite sex) out there, but I’d see that as different somehow from limerence.
LAR,
“Yes, I was attracted to my LO and have always been open here about that. ‘Friendship’ to me was like a next-best option, given I knew I wouldn’t act on the attraction.”
Exactly. Whereas with what I’m talking about, friendship is the best option.
“What I’m less clear about is how any friendship can be ‘limerent’ with no attraction? Surely limerence is about attraction / the wish to pair bond (or have sex, if I put it more plainly) with the LO?”
You’re each other’s “person” (or at least one of them). I’m not sure how else to describe it. You have an issue? They’re the first person you call. You need help at 2 a.m. with a car issue? You call them. With the two gay male friends, most people thought we were a couple. I went to some of their family events. You’re the one sitting next to them at a dinner party with friends.
Thus, I don’t think you can have an SO and a friend like this. Because they’d both be playing the same role.
Watch “Brideshead Revisited.” I think you can find it on YouTube. The British TV series of the famous book by Evelyn Waugh. Charles and Sebastian, IMO, have a limerent friendship. They’re kind of enmeshed.
Marcia,
“You’re each other’s “person” (or at least one of them). I’m not sure how else to describe it. You have an issue? They’re the first person you call. You need help at 2 a.m. with a car issue? You call them. With the two gay male friends, most people thought we were a couple. I went to some of their family events. You’re the one sitting next to them at a dinner party with friends.”
That’s why it’s been so incredibly annoying for me that limerence developed and got in the way after so much time. Because there always was – and still is – a real deep friendship there. LO and I have been / still have the potential to be that “person” for each other, in all respects. I really level with what you say about the gay friends, as that’s like me and her. Always got eyes on and out for each other at social gatherings etc, one of the first people I want to share trivial news with and vice versa, etc.
“Thus, I don’t think you can have an SO and a friend like this”. Because they’d both be playing the same role”
Agree, and am living proof. I was not able to fully be the “person” I could have been / felt I wanted to be for LO, because I had an SO. And I was not being the person I wanted to be for SO, because I was distracted by LO and channelling too much of my effort at her.
Neither worked properly because of the other. I wished I could make it work – even believed I could carry it off at times. But like for everyone, it cracked eventually and I had to distance from LO. Lots of people come to LwL at first saying they can make something like that work. I was one of them. I have yet to see the example where it did work.
“Watch “Brideshead Revisited”. Charles and Sebastian, IMO, have a limerent friendship. They’re kind of enmeshed.”
On the list!
LAR,
“LO and I have been / still have the potential to be that “person” for each other”
You have your person. She’s your SO. I don’t really think you can have more than one “person.” You can have a “person” and close friends, but only one “person” can be at the top of the list.
“I really level with what you say about the gay friends, as that’s like me and her. ”
But we were never attracted to each other. We weren’t in love with each other. Which is essentially what limerence is. Falling in love with someone else.
“Agree, and am living proof. I was not able to fully be the “person” I could have been / felt I wanted to be for LO, because I had an SO. And I was not being the person I wanted to be for SO, because I was distracted by LO and channelling too much of my effort at her.”
Yes. It would be the same if you had a limerent (platonic) friendship with your LO. But I’d still say romantic/sexual feelings add an entirely different dimension. They just do.
“I have yet to see the example where it did work.”
Because very few limerents are interested in a platonic friendship; there’s a sexual element to it.
[“Watch “Brideshead Revisited”. Charles and Sebastian, IMO, have a limerent friendship. They’re kind of enmeshed.”]
“On the list!”
Some readers have interpreted their relationship as sexual. I didn’t see it that way, but I’m just one person. There was a 2008 movie made of the book (which I did not think was very good) in which they kiss.
IMO, a very tight friendship is presented in the 1981 TV series.
“You have your person. She’s your SO. I don’t really think you can have more than one “person.”
It’s been a properly tough journey for me to accept that, but I now know that to be accurate the hard way.
“But we were never attracted to each other. We weren’t in love with each other. Which is essentially what limerence is. Falling in love with someone else.”
OK, yes – but that point brings me full circle to what I started this thread with … if limerence is attraction/falling in love, then how can limerence also be platonic? (Forget my LE re this point – I mean more generally).
“But I’d still say romantic/sexual feelings add an entirely different dimension. They just do.”
I think those feelings were only from my direction. I think she either didn’t see it, at least early on, or saw it and was prepared to tolerate it because she still wanted the friendship. In that second scenario, I was a ‘safe’ option for her because she knew I had an SO and wouldn’t act or put her under any pressure to change the friendship to more (a bit like if I was gay). When she saw it was getting riskier, she also backed away, which helped me to.
“Because very few limerents are interested in a platonic friendship; there’s a sexual element to it.”
Back to my above question – how can limerence be platonic then?
Thanks for mentioning it is the 1981 version you meant of Brideshead. The tough thing for me about carving out the time to watch some of these things is how to tell my SO I am interested in all this stuff that depicts limerence 😂
Marcia, LaR,
Please allow me to cut in here a bit —
LaR, Marcia “platonic friendship” is different from yours with MFF. The former has no sexual intention/tension/drive involved during the interactions, even both sides are available to act. Is that your case?
I had a brief crush for this bi-sexual coworker a long while ago, but not sexually attracted (he married and divorced with an Asian girl once)
I wanted to be with him outside work so went out with him, his bf, and his sister to a rocky concert (after he cooked a delicious dinner for us). Afterwards it’s very late and we all drank a bit too much for me to go home alone. So I crushed on their big bed, and did not feel a thing.
The next morning when they were both were soundly sleeping, I just slipped out.
“Brideshead Revisited” series is really good. Perhaps you could convince your SO for its quality and check out this “platonic friendship” together?
LaR,
“OK, yes – but that point brings me full circle to what I started this thread with … if limerence is attraction/falling in love, then how can limerence also be platonic? (Forget my LE re this point – I mean more generally).”
So this is (forgive me) the AI definition of romantic friendships:
“A romantic friendship is a close, emotionally intense relationship, often involving physical affection and emotional support, that is characterized by a deep sense of love and connection, but typically without the expectation of sexual intimacy. It’s distinct from platonic friendships in the intensity of the bond and the inclusion of physical affection and emotionally poetic communication.”
With mine, there wasn’t physical affection. But we were very close. If I need a date to something (with the gay men), they went with me. If I needed to go to a family thing, they went with me. If I was having a horribly crappy day and need someone to talk me off the ledge, I called them. They were probably the closest people in the word to me. We spent a lot of time together. We were all wrapped up in each others’ business. (Totally different than other friendships I’ve had, particularly as an adult. I have my life, they have theirs, and occasionally we intersected to meet up for a short time.) But I didn’t want to have sex with them. Although I was very possessive of them if they met men and feared a man would take them away from me. (Same with the female friend.) Because men could provide the one thing I couldn’t. And, possibly, the romantic experience of falling in love.
All my emotional energy was going to them, but I still hooked up with guys. During one friendship, I still became limerent for a man who I wanted to have sex with. (He was not available.) What’s interesting is that during the times I had these kinds of friendships, I didn’t have a boyfriend. They were my boyfriends, in a sense. Just no sex.
(I’m understanding this all retrospectively. I didn’t understand it at the time.)
“Back to my above question – how can limerence be platonic then?”
You’re such a straight man. 🙂
I there’s a post on here about platonic limerence.
“Thanks for mentioning it is the 1981 version you meant of Brideshead. The tough thing for me about carving out the time to watch some of these things is how to tell my SO I am interested in all this stuff that depicts limerence 😂”
It’s considered one of the best miniseries every made. So you say that to your SO. It’s also a classic book.
They’re two young students at Oxford. The one is devolving into alcoholism, and his family recruits the other to help because he is already wrapped up with the family. The family just assumes that he will help. That’s how one of these friendships would play out.
Marcia, Snow,
“Youre such a straight man”
Women mistook me as gay frequently when I was younger but it hasn’t happened in a while.
This is what I think we (all 3) now understand the same (please forget things I said 6 months ago and work with my understanding now):
1. There is a difference between a platonic friendship and one that involves limerence or romantic feeling on either side.
2. I can’t claim mine with LO was a platonic friendship. I tried before – you two and others convinced me otherwise. I concede this point! I fancied her so it is not platonic, full stop, nor can it probably ever properly be now. You don’t need to work to convince me of this point anymore.
Let’s take the above as read.
Now, the bit I still don’t compute. I know I’m persistent on certain questions, but this is because I really care to understand what you mean, and it can take several goes when all we have is written words.
The issue is about platonic *limerence*, not platonic friendship.
So you’re saying platonic limerence is every element of limerence towards a friend, apart from the expectation of sex?
Then it can’t also be true to say that pair bonding is an intrinsic part of limerence (it is only there in most, but not all LEs).
Fair?
LAR,
“Women mistook me as gay frequently when I was younger but it hasn’t happened in a while.”
Is that because your friends were all women? 🙂
“This is what I think we (all 3) now understand the same (please forget things I said 6 months ago and work with my understanding now):”
I totally understand. My understanding of limerence has changed and continues to change.
“There is a difference between a platonic friendship and one that involves limerence or romantic feeling on either side.”
yes.
“2. I can’t claim mine with LO was a platonic friendship. I tried before – you two and others convinced me otherwise. ”
It’s what I call a “limerence workaround.” A way the limerent tries to convince themselves they can keep the LO in their lives because they’re “just a friend.”
“The issue is about platonic *limerence*, not platonic friendship.”
Yes
“So you’re saying platonic limerence is every element of limerence towards a friend, apart from the expectation of sex?”
In a sense, yes.
When my one limerent friendship fell apart, in terms of the way I was talking about it to another friend, she said, “It’s like you’re going through a breakup.”
“Then it can’t also be true to say that pair bonding is an intrinsic part of limerence (it is only there in most, but not all LEs).”
I’d say it probably is pair bonding in most cases.
But the friendships I’m talking about were a bit obsessive, enmeshed, co-dependent. Maybe limerence isn’t the right word. But they’re more than a basic platonic friendship.
Marcia,
“Is that because your friends were all women? 🙂”
Good one. Like the token gay best friend, only not gay. Even that came only in the second half of my life to date.
It’s what I call a “limerence workaround.” A way the limerent tries to convince themselves they can keep the LO in their lives because they’re “just a friend.”
Yes. DrL has a blog or two about it. We all think it doesn’t apply to us. You saw it with me when I arrived here and were one of only a few prepared to challenge me with difficult questions. I appreciate(d) it, as we just can’t see it when we’re in it. I see it now with newer people and try to be clear about it with them.
“The issue is about platonic *limerence*, not platonic friendship.”
Yes
“It’s like you’re going through a breakup.”
It needs similar respect and self-care as a breakup does. I’ve had easier breakups than the process of ending this LE.
I’ve got you now about platonic limerence. No further questions 🎓
LaR,
“Like the token gay best friend, only not gay. ”
Or a straight guy who’s hanging around as an orbiter.
“Even that came only in the second half of my life to date.”
Not sure what you mean.
“You saw it with me when I arrived here and were one of only a few prepared to challenge me with difficult questions. I appreciate(d) it”
Am I known as The Taskmaster on here? 🙂 I don’t think of myself like that. I assure you I’m quite pleasant IRL. Even a bit shy.
“I’ve had easier breakups than the process of ending this LE.”
Me, too.
“Or a straight guy who’s hanging around as an orbiter”
Define orbiter?! I am confident I don’t try to push my friendship on any women who don’t want it.
“Not sure what you mean”
I meant that I have only really become any good at befriending women since my mid 20s / 30yo. I haven’t always ‘orbited’ 🙂
“Am I known as The Taskmaster on here? 🙂 I don’t think of myself like that. I assure you I’m quite pleasant IRL. Even a bit shy.”
Ha, i can see you in the Taskmaster chair!
I have no doubt you are pleasant in life! I wouldn’t bother replying here if anyone was openly unpleasant. For what it’s worth, I am fairly shy too. (I N T/F J). You shoot from the hip on LwL –
. You tell it like you see it, not too much fluff. Different from many posters. I meant it as a compliment only, as something I have appreciated. You ask me questions sometimes where I have to dig deep to think how to answer – I want that, not an easy life. Some of what you’ve said has been among the stuff that’s made me stop kidding myself with all the ‘best friend’ stories and actually take my LE in hand.
Miss Marcia to LaR,
“I am confident I don’t try to push my friendship on any women who don’t want it.”
Orbiters don’t push. That’s the problem. They circle! They put themselves in the friend zone, hoping for an opening. Maybe they’re a lower-level friend, hoping to be moved into the more inner circles.
“I meant that I have only really become any good at befriending women since my mid 20s / 30yo. I haven’t always ‘orbited’ 🙂”
Lol. Well, befriending someone is kind of orbiting if you really want to date them. But you’ve written that you didn’t have romantic interest in most (?) of your female friends.
I’d like to think that men and women can be friends and the sexual stuff doesn’t get in the way. Otherwise, I’m cutting out half the population. But, I don’t know. Honestly, would you date a woman with a lot of male friends?
“You tell it like you see it, not too much fluff. Different from many posters. I meant it as a compliment only”
Well, thank you. I just want to be sure I’m not being harsh. One can be honest without punching someone in the face.
“Some of what you’ve said has been among the stuff that’s made me stop kidding myself with all the ‘best friend’ stories and actually take my LE in hand.”
It’s always important to stop drinking the Kool-Aid and telling yourself it doesn’t have sugar. 🙂
Marcia,
You asked if I’d date a woman with lots of male friends.
I’m a midlifer, as most of us here are. It is telling that all the talkative people in this community are all within a 15 or 20 year age band. I’d probably only ever be into women within that band.
The thing is that any person in that band will carry baggage of some sort. Or if they don’t, you’d normally have to ask serious questions about why. Male friends aren’t the worst kind of baggage I can imagine. And those truly platonic friendships are rare, as you’ve said.
I guess I’m trying to say there is always going to be ‘something in the way’ with people my age.
Hypothetically, if I had to go back into the dating game, I’d have to decide what I’d be willing to take a punt on. Women with guy friends wouldn’t feel like the worst option.
Having said that – I have taken that on before and it didn’t work out great! This stuff is a dark art.
“Hypothetically, if I had to go back into the dating game, I’d have to decide what I’d be willing to take a punt on. Women with guy friends wouldn’t feel like the worst option.”
@LaR,
Trust me man, it’s not. If you’re like me it’s the pure enjoyment of just having a Woman around that will give me a little of her time.
It’s when we as Men assume something else, when those Women-folk are thinking about us in an entirely different way. A way, rather than one we’d like to believe.. That’s the part that usually fools me..
Miss Marcia to LAR,
“Male friends aren’t the worst kind of baggage I can imagine.”
That’s a good point.
“I guess I’m trying to say there is always going to be ‘something in the way’ with people my age.”
Yeah. I find that it’s usually a wife. 🙂 Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
“Having said that – I have taken that on before and it didn’t work out great! This stuff is a dark art.”
So you’ve dated women with male friends?
I mean, if a guy has a couple of good female friends, they’ve been friends for years, he introduces me to her, he isn’t interested in her romantically (and is being honest about that) … I probably wouldn’t have a problem with it. (I’m not saying I have to tag along every time he hangs out with her but if I never meet her … why?) But if he’s got several female friends … I have to wonder if that’s a validation thing.
MJ,
“It’s when we as Men assume something else, when those Women-folk are thinking about us in an entirely different way. A way, rather than one we’d like to believe.”
Yes, definitely. I think that’s especially hazardous in work places. Most people at work just want some coworkers they can really gel with, to make the work environment easier – we have to spend so many hours there. But people (or ‘men’, Miss Marcia might say to us 🙂) often get confused between that and the female colleagues wanting more. That point isn’t meant to be taking aim at you; as you know, me and others have been guilty of the same wrong thinking (and for me, I shouldn’t even have been thinking about it anyway).
I wonder how this would be different if the person was fishing somewhere other than the company pool? Because outside of work, people have less ulterior for ‘orbiting’ if they’re not interested.
MJ, I have meant to say something to you for a while. I know you didn’t give us all the details, but it is obvious that with LF, you decided to be really truthful and it backfired. Don’t see this as a reason not to be truthful with women in the future. See it more as “it’s her issue if she couldn’t handle my truth”. You may want to decide which parts of truth to present in future, but I would still try to present it if it’s important.
An example from my dating history to try and show what I mean. I withheld some truths (‘past baggage’ related) from a former date. It really backfired and when it came out, it ended our dating very quickly after. She accused me of lying, whereas it was more like ‘omission until an appropriate point’ in my eyes.
After that, I never withheld that information from future dates. The women where I have been upfront with it (includes my SO) have all been a little surprised / shocked at first, but never used it against me. SO has said she is pleased I took that approach. I’m just saying this to show that what happened with LF’s reaction was far against the grain of my experiences, and may well not repeat for you with others.
A coffee ☕️ on the house for you good sir.
Miss Marcia,
I once got into a relationship with a woman who had a lot of male friends (in all the different senses we might have defined ‘friends’) orbiting. That relationship was long term, but ended in the way that we might predict, based on her having so many male friends orbiting.
Miss Marcia to LaR,
“But people (or ‘men’, Miss Marcia might say to us 🙂) often get confused between that and the female colleagues wanting more. ”
If it makes you feel any better, there isn’t a woman on the planet who hasn’t made that same mistake. Nobody bats 1000.
“I wonder how this would be different if the person was fishing somewhere other than the company pool? Because outside of work, people have less ulterior for ‘orbiting’ if they’re not interested.”
If people are young enough … school. College. Grad school.
“After that, I never withheld that information from future dates. The women where I have been upfront with it (includes my SO) have all been a little surprised / shocked at first, but never used it against me. ”
I’m dying to know what it is. 🙂
” That relationship was long term, but ended in the way that we might predict, based on her having so many male friends orbiting.”
Because those guys were really on standby?
LaR to Miss Marcia,
“Nobody bats 1000.”
Very true. We can intellectually think we are quite good at telling these differences, and then the reality shows not! Example 1 – friendship signals vs attraction signals. Example 2 – “I will recognise glimmers I should run away from” vs actually being able to run away a glimmer when it happens.
“Because those guys were really on standby?”
Unfortunately, more than on standby eventually, in at least one case.
The thing you are dying to know above actually relates to that same relationship. Unfortunately it is a level beyond what I want to disclose. I am not worried about you or other LwL people knowing it (it is not anything shocking or that interesting) – it is more just that I worry about being identified by lurkers if too many bits of my real story are in one place.
LaR
“After that, I never withheld that information from future dates. The women where I have been upfront with it (includes my SO) have all been a little surprised / shocked at first, but never used it against me.”
Totally know that feeling. Had a couple I dated and/or talked to online before I met my wife that I told that “secret” to and they were immediately offended, and it was over. I finally told my to be wife online before I met her in person, and she just laughed it off. Women …. how you figure?
LaR to Miss Marcia,
“Very true. We can intellectually think we are quite good at telling these differences, and then the reality shows not! Example 1 – friendship signals vs attraction signals.”
Yes. Very true. Particularly in today’s climate. Everyone (women included) is very aware of saying or doing anything that could be construed as creepy. So it’s kind of a toned down atmosphere. It’s hard to tell sometimes that someone is flirting.
“I will recognise glimmers I should run away from” vs actually being able to run away a glimmer when it happens.”
I don’t agree with this. So in my recent situation, which I will call “limerence lite” … I definitely felt the glimmer but I wasn’t getting all that much back. At least not for a while. Then I got small hints, blips of stuff that maybe it might be mutual. And I pushed the door open a little. A little. I didn’t expect the response I got, but I still KNEW I was pushing the door. I knew my intentions weren’t platonic.
“Unfortunately, more than on standby eventually, in at least one case.”
Not sure I’m understanding. You’ve dated multiple women who have a bunch of guy friends? I’m kind of impressed with these women. The queen of orbiters! 🙂 I mean, if I were a man, I wouldn’t date a woman who had a bunch of orbiters, but you have to be impressed with women who have them. Pimp s**t. 🙂
” it is more just that I worry about being identified by lurkers if too many bits of my real story are in one place.”
I was teasing. I wasn’t really expecting you to tell me. But I am curious. 🙂 And I’m curious why you told your dates so early in the dating process. I’m of the mindset that it’s none of their business. Obviously, depending on what it is. Something like … you have 8 baby mamas. Yeah, you need to be upfront about that.
Adam,
“Totally know that feeling. Had a couple I dated and/or talked to online before I met my wife that I told that “secret” to and they were immediately offended, and it was over.”
Hmmm … you and LaR are men of mystery and secrets! (I’m kidding.) 🙂
Adam,
Thanks for just getting it. I hope you got through your recent ‘anniversary’ date ok (I remember it, as the same date also has heavy meaning in my LE, and hasn’t been the easiest to push past even this year when I think it is mostly over).
Marcia,
“Everyone (women included) is very aware of saying or doing anything that could be construed as creepy. So it’s kind of a toned down atmosphere. It’s hard to tell sometimes that someone is flirting”
I’m conflicted by it. Nobody should have to feel put upon by the opposite sex. But I’d hate to be a young single man having tp try and navigate signalling interest go a woman in today’s climate. I told LO that once and she said I was being ridiculous – ‘JUST ASK THEM’ was her take on it).
“I will recognise glimmers I should run away from” vs actually being able to run away a glimmer when it happens.”
“I don’t agree with this”
I think we’re wires crossed. Your point is about whether we limerents know what we’re doing. Yes we do, I agree. My point is that we know what we’re doing, know we shouldn’t be doing it but do it anyway – so why?!
“And I pushed the door open a little. A little.”
By doing what?
“I didn’t expect the response I got”
What response did you expect?
“Not sure I’m understanding. You’ve dated multiple women who have a bunch of guy friends? ”
No, one woman with many guy friends. And one of those guy friends went beyond being on standby.
“I’m curious why you told your dates so early in the dating process. I’m of the mindset that it’s none of their business”
I told it to one woman on date 4 and got accused of lying and then ghosted. I then decided I needed to tell future dates straight out. If they could deal with it, fine. If not, move on. It worked better like that.
“Obviously, depending on what it is. Something like … you have 8 baby mamas. Yeah, you need to be upfront about that.”
For sure. But not found 8 willing candidates 😆
“You may want to decide which parts of truth to present in future, but I would still try to present it if it’s important.”
@LaR,
You’re right about that. It is important but it got avoided with LF because I didn’t want to talk about those things with her at work. You simply never know who is around and possibly tuning in. I think I’m within my right to request that from her if it’s something I deem private. This was my primary reason for asking her to meet up with me many many times outside of work. To which she never agreed.. And I say, ok whatever.. I can’t force it and refuse to beg and look desperate. I kinda told her this before we quit talking. I don’t know if it sank in..
It isn’t a nightmare between us now at work. She’s not talking $#!+ or spreading lies or making up false claims. Her friends still talk to me. There’s some awkward staring when we’re in close proximity to each other but often she’ll walk on by like she doesn’t even know me. I’m kind of the same way. I don’t like to or really even want to be avoiding her but by default, I feel like I simply have to now.
I guess what makes it not so bad is I’ve conditioned myself to not be hurt over it or hold it against her. I know I screwed up. Yet I also know her response was a little capricious and rude. I trusted her because she told me I could trust her. Not because I wanted her to allow me to go in for the kick, only to land flat on my back. Another testament to how I’m pretty sure LF was not ever LO-level status..
Thank you also for the coffee. I’m very un-deserving but do appreciate your gracious kindness..
☕
LaR,
“But I’d hate to be a young single man having tp try and navigate signalling interest go a woman in today’s climate.”
I think it would be very difficult.
“I told LO that once and she said I was being ridiculous – ‘JUST ASK THEM’ was her take on it).”
Yes and no. If it’s at work, she could complain about you. (I’m assuming by “ask them,” you mean on a date or something.) I don’t want to say that someone should never ask a co-worker out, but it can get tricky.
“My point is that we know what we’re doing, know we shouldn’t be doing it but do it anyway – so why?!”
Because of the level of interest. It’s level 10. And how often does that happen? As I told myself the other day: How many more of these am I going to get?
“By doing what?”
Restarting an email conversation that had died out
“What response did you expect?”
Chit chat
“No, one woman with many guy friends. And one of those guy friends went beyond being on standby.”
So she moved the friend (who was, it sounds like, on the back burner) to the front burner?
Marcia,
“I don’t want to say that someone should never ask a co-worker out, but it can get tricky.”
Co-working definitely adds many layers, but in this case it has kind of also helped keep the ‘safety’ of the situation. Our other co-workers do often joke about the relationship between us, but we are always seem to be able to brush it off without it creating a problem.
“As I told myself the other day: How many more of these am I going to get?”
I get you. When you said to Snow about the feeling of being alive, I really related. The after effects are truly horrible (I had two horrific months) but the fun part still happens first and can be intoxicating.
“So she moved the friend (who was, it sounds like, on the back burner) to the front burner?”
Precisely. This is all long ago and not something I feel any big need to vent about now – but it illustrates your point about orbiters.
LaR
Yeah it went fairly well. I had to really be selective of what music I listened to that day. But I played my favorite song of her’s that reinforces positive and healthy non-limerent memories of her. So … yeah not as bad as I thought it would be.
Im Gonna Be Around — Micheal Learns To Rock
https://youtu.be/GdfoUnoSKZc?si=1oljjmw3uALDO_UH
Dame Marcia to LaR
“Co-working definitely adds many layers, but in this case it has kind of also helped keep the ‘safety’ of the situation.”
I’m not sure what you mean.
“The after effects are truly horrible (I had two horrific months) but the fun part still happens first and can be intoxicating.”
Ah, well, that’s the issue. The after effects. And, in the end, what was it I really got? The feelings? A little glimpse of something. Something that I really wanted that I’m not going to get. I’m not sure the initial feelings are worth the after effects. Now I’m slithering back to my “gray flannel life.” (To quote the song “Lady Marmalade.”)
Some of my previous LOs actually showed up. (And I think you know what I mean by “showed up.”) But, man oh man, they’re getting worse as I get older.
“This is all long ago and not something I feel any big need to vent about now – but it illustrates your point about orbiters.”
I mean, not to get anal about it, but I think of orbiters as people who don’t really have a chance. Backburners are people who are placed there by the person as a “just in case.”
Marcia,
I just replied to that. Tried to start new thread down bottom of this coffeehouse. Must have hit Reply in wrong place, as it is near the bottom but not at the bottom! Hopefully you’ll find it.
Marcia,
“Speaking of British series from the early ’80s, have you seen “The Jewel in the Crown”? One of my absolute favorites. The character of Hari Kumar. I had such a crush on the actor who played him when I was young. Art Malik.”
No, I haven’t. This is the first time anyone ever mentioned it to me. By a quick glance of Art Malik, I’m not sure I’d have a crush on him. Jeremy Iron has more “vulnerable look”, and I could marry JI for his sexy voice alone.
“It can’t last long. Sebastian is an alcoholic and all but totally self-destructs. Oh, I love Anthony Andrews. What a great performance. “
If Sebastian could stop the never-ending blame on his mother and were not so self-destructive, his platonic friendship with Charles might have lasted much longer, if not forever.
“Do you remember when Sebastian and Charles go to Venice to visit Sebastian’s’ father? The father’s girlfriend talks to Charles about his friendship with Sebastian. I think she may even call it a “romantic friendship.” But she implies it’s something you grow out of.”
I remember the scene very well, but not the detailed conversation. Of course, I was not aware what “romantic friendship” means last time I saw it.
” It can’t last forever. Not in my experience. It’s usually very grounded in place and time. Where you both are in your life. And then one or both of you has a big life change, and the friendship either fades to a less intense version or it dies.”
If willing, both parties could rekindle it later when they have more time and opportunity. That special connection never TRULY dies.
“Oh, the scene where they first meet. Swoon! 🙂 “
Now, you understand why she’s the only woman in the whole world I’d ever consider to go bed with? Her face in that scene is stuck in my head for eternity.
“I find her so interesting in that role. She’s so very French in the role. French sexuality is so under the surface, subtle, mysterious.”
Totally agree with you here! I’m dying to see Trifles’ face one day 😜
“I don’t think an American actress could have played that role. Americans are too obvious.”
I agree, not any English one, either! I don’t think any other actress can play that role, there is only ONE Binoche.
”I’m the same way. I wish I could be the more detached one. The only way I’ve ever been able to do that is if I’m not into the person that much. And where’s the fun in that?”
Well, I guess some French women are able to have the intense sexual fun while somewhat detached, like Annie Ernaux in her “Simple Passion” (it’s her own true story)!
“I watched a movie with Steve McQueen the other day. I had never seen him in anything. He looked like a tough guy, but he was very sweet and emotive with his co-star, played by Natalie Wood. I could see why he was a big star.”
From a brief glance, he’s not a sentimental actor like JI type. But I need to see the movie to assess it.
“I just watched the scene in “Age of Innocence” where they disclose to each other. My goodness, is that a sexy scene. And nobody takes their clothes off!”
Is it on Youtube? I’ll check it out.
“So you are a little impulsive. 🙂”
99.9% of time I am not. Only if in a safe environment, with some worthy causes — adventurous or exploratory, I can be “impulsive”. Never with strangers, though; I knew those 7 men and other women in our shared retreat.
“I wasn’t naked, but I do remember going to a party once and suddenly realizing I was the only woman in the hot tub with four men. That was kind of a cool moment. 🙂”
You see, that’s a special feeling one can’t imagine without experiencing it on the spot! And it’s unforgettable!
“Yes. I’m just not sure you can have a limerent friendship and an SO at the same time.”
That’s what I firmly think, too!
Snow,
“By a quick glance of Art Malik, I’m not sure I’d have a crush on him.”
You have to see the series. He’s delicious in the role. 🙂
“and I could marry JI for his sexy voice alone.”
Most definitely. 🙂
“I remember the scene very well, but not the detailed conversation. Of course, I was not aware what “romantic friendship” means last time I saw it.”
I didn’t, either. I love the part where Charles later runs into Julia on the boat and she asks (about Sebastian), “You really loved him, didn’t you?” And Charles says, “He was the precursor.”
“If willing, both parties could rekindle it later when they have more time and opportunity. That special connection never TRULY dies.”
I think it does. Or the intensity of the bond does. Life happens — people get married, have kids.
“Now, you understand why she’s the only woman in the whole world I’d ever consider to go bed with? ”
She’s gorgeous but in a very androgynous way.
“I don’t think any other actress can play that role, there is only ONE Binoche.”
Yes. I remember reading an excerpt from the book in a magazine (the book came out in 1991, the movie in 1992). So I would maybe have read the excerpt just when the book came out. It made me interested in the story and her character. When she talks about how damaged people can survive.
“Well, I guess some French women are able to have the intense sexual fun while somewhat detached, like Annie Ernaux in her “Simple Passion” (it’s her own true story)!”
OMG! I’ve read parts of that.
“From a brief glance, he’s not a sentimental actor like JI type. But I need to see the movie to assess it.”
He’s by no means my favorite actor, but I could see the appeal.
“Is it on Youtube? I’ll check it out.”
Yes. As is the scene where the two are in the carriage together alone and he takes off her glove and kisses her hand. OMG
“99.9% of time I am not.”
I have little blips of impulsivity.
“Never with strangers, though; I knew those 7 men and other women in our shared retreat.”
Me, too. I knew the guys.
“You see, that’s a special feeling one can’t imagine without experiencing it on the spot! And it’s unforgettable!”
It was definitely a cool moment.
Marcia,
“You have to see the series. He’s delicious in the role. 🙂”
You keep saying a man/actor is delicious making me want to taste or eat one 😝! Where on earth do you get so much time watching hot, delicious movie series or video clips ⁉️
““You really loved him, didn’t you?” And Charles says, “He was the precursor.”
Precursor, a new word to me. I have to check that scene or rewatch the mini series. Missed so much deep-layered meanings without understanding every word. 😒
“I think it does. Or the intensity of the bond does. Life happens — people get married, have kids.”
After kids are out of nest, don’t you think they can still get back together, if they really wish? Or can they bring their respective spouse into the picture?
“She’s gorgeous but in a very androgynous way.”
Precisely! She’s not over feminine, with a right dose of masculinity, so independent and “confident in the movie. But the father and son haas to pay the price for her unstoppable desire. And Jeremy Irons often plays this helplessly vulnerable role, provoking audience to empathize for his transition joys and lasting pains… …
“It made me interested in the story and her character. When she talks about how damaged people can survive.”
I saw her performance in person a couple of times, really enjoyed it. She’s right that damaged people can survive and even thrive if they learn how to heal their aged wounds.
“OMG! I’ve read parts of that.”
Yes, I read the whole book and watched the movie (it helped the author to win Nobel Literature Prize). I had a hard time to resonate with her emotions and “endurance” of the uncertainty and instability. Of course, she thought she’s cool-headed and able to keep this hot PA forever. Yet before long, she slipped into LE and almost blew her entire life (w/ a son).
“Yes. As is the scene where the two are in the carriage together alone and he takes off her glove and kisses her hand. OMG”
Indeed, it’s OMG‼️ It’s so delicious and romantic. If a man can take that much of time, care and delicacy just to take off a glove, I’d drop up everything in my life for it! 🤪
You must work in some kind of pop-culture critique field… please send/provide more of those racing—heart, 🔥 scenes to our limerent’s way here…
I have so much cultural stuff to catch up… 😀!
Snow,
“Where on earth do you get so much time watching hot, delicious movie series or video clips ⁉️”
I’ve seen all the stuff we’re talking about already.
“Precursor, a new word to me. I have to check that scene or rewatch the mini series. ”
Actually, he might have said forerunner. What he’s essentially saying is that Sebastian was his first love (I’ll still interpret it as platonic, maybe others don’t) and Julia is his second. There’s no love between him and his wife.
“After kids are out of nest, don’t you think they can still get back together, if they really wish?”
Yes, but how does one navigate that? I ask that in all sincerity. If you are very close with someone, if they are your go-to person, but then they get another go-to person, you’re not going to be as close. And how do you not feel resentful or a bit abandoned?
“Precisely! She’s not over feminine, with a right dose of masculinity, so independent and “confident in the movie. ”
And that androgyny makes her interesting to watch. But if I were going to go that route, I’d pick out a woman who was very feminine.
“And Jeremy Irons often plays this helplessly vulnerable role, provoking audience to empathize for his transition joys and lasting pains… …”
It’s a tragedy, really. He’s left the shell of a person at the end.
“I saw her performance in person a couple of times, really enjoyed it. ”
What do you mean? Was she in a play?
“Yes, I read the whole book and watched the movie (it helped the author to win Nobel Literature Prize).”
I didn’t know there was a movie. I’ve read sections of the book. Is the movie worth watching?
“It’s so delicious and romantic.”
Ha! You’re using the word “delicious” now. 🙂
“If a man can take that much of time, care and delicacy just to take off a glove, I’d drop up everything in my life for it! 🤪”
What the movie really gets right is all the sexual tension and emotional longing between them.
“… please send/provide more of those racing—heart, 🔥 scenes to our limerent’s way here…”
Two Merchant and Ivory movies. The first is “Maurice.” Two young men at Cambridge fall in love at the turn of the century. Based on the E.M. Forster novel. It can’t be fully expressed, of course. And it’s a young Hugh Grant and James Wilby. Both very handsome. There’s a scene in which Wilby is sitting in a chair and Grant is on the floor in front of him. Wilby starts stroking his hair.
Later, young Rupert Graves shows up (Grant has dumped Wilby and married a woman). (Graves, is, of course the son in “Damage.”) Graves plays a kind of primal, earthy gardener. At one point, he climbs through the window on a ladder and seduces Wilby.
The second: “Remains of the Day.” Anthony Hopkins is the head butler in a large English mansion in the 1930s. Emma Thompson works for him, and they fall in love but Hopkins is so painfully bottled up. There’s a scene in which she literally backs him up against a wall and pries a book out of his hands. She’s trying to reach him emotionally. I warn you that this movie is sad.
Marcia,
“I’ve seen all the stuff we’re talking about already.”
I figured this out. That’s why I think you are paid to deal with pop and classical culture stuff.
“Actually, he might have said forerunner. What he’s essentially saying is that Sebastian was his first love (I’ll still interpret it as platonic, maybe others don’t) and Julia is his second. There’s no love between him and his wife.”
Yeah, I looked up the word (constantly doing so with every single post I read!). I definitely think it’s platonic but very emotionally attached, and sensed he did not love his wife, Julia.
“Yes, but how does one navigate that? I ask that in all sincerity. If you are very close with someone, if they are your go-to person, but then they get another go-to person, you’re not going to be as close. And how do you not feel resentful or a bit abandoned?”
We take it for granted, tougher and apart is inevitable elements of life, so why feeling resentful about FATE⁉️ It would be interpreted as “abandonment”, but fate.
“And that androgyny makes her interesting to watch. But if I were going to go that route, I’d pick out a woman who was very feminine.”
“Going to go that route”? You mean as JI’s character? His wife is a bit more feminine than Binoche, but the way less sexy.
“It’s a tragedy, really. He’s left the shell of a person at the end.”
Indeed, very tragic. Also him in “Ringer”… I don’t know why I like those tragic roles. Between comedy and tragedy, I always chose the latter since young, as if I could resonate with tragic characters better. I genuinely “suffered” so much with/for them…
My compassion was usually excessive based on my friends and family — a lot of it for fictional characters. I often had troubles to empathize with real people in reality, because they didn’t or did not how to communicate with me about stuff in their head/heart, so I ended up guessing all the time, particularly with different personalities and cultural backgrounds. Thus… tons of mistakes in “sensitivities and sensibilities. “
“What do you mean? Was she in a play?”
Yes, once in her sole dance; another time in Harold Pinter’s play”Betrayal”. I also saw her sole abstract painting exhibit in French Consulate here. Watched almost all her movies.
“I didn’t know there was a movie. I’ve read sections of the book. Is the movie worth watching?”
Oh, boy! 🔥 🔥 only if I could adopt her mentality, I’d have lost my head in my last LE!
“Ha! You’re using the word “delicious” now. 🙂”
I need to increase my appetite for an object of that word applied… 😛
“What the movie really gets right is all the sexual tension and emotional longing between them.”
🆎! but always sad because they can’t get profound emotional longing fulfilled. that’s why tragedies often have such heard/soul touching quality.
“Two Merchant and Ivory movies. The first is “Maurice.”
Maurice is on my Tubi list, waiting. I like both Huge Grant and Rupert Graves, don’t know James Wiley.
“The second: “Remains of the Day.”
Saw it twice, so sad… making me almost unable to breathe… Hopkins character is stupid!
Maybe I’ll watch Maurice this weekend. I hope you feel better this weekend!
Typo: again missing “NOT” —
“We take it for granted, together and apart is inevitable elements of life, so why feeling resentful about FATE⁉️ It would NOT be interpreted as “abandonment”, but fate.”
“Heart/soul touching”
I went and bought a copy of Maurice and put it on my Prime Watchlist. I read and saw A Room With a View years ago and loved it, both the book and the movie; the fact that Forster wrote a book like Maurice in 1913, I find very intriguing. Of course it wasn’t published till after his death, when some parts of society were getting more accepting….
Serial,
“I went and bought a copy of Maurice and put it on my Prime Watchlist. ”
I found it on YouTube. You can watch the whole movie for free.
.
🦇,
I love “The room with a view”. the book and movie.
Helena B. Carter is my 2nd top favorite actress, although not so sexy or mysterious; the 3rd one is another French.
I do like Helena Bonham Carter. Adorable in her youth, interesting roles as she got older. Haven’t seen all her movies, though.
Snow,
“That’s why I think you are paid to deal with pop and classical culture stuff.”
I wish. 🙂
“Yeah, I looked up the word (constantly doing so with every single post I read!).”
You’re welcome. 🙂
” I definitely think it’s platonic but very emotionally attached, and sensed he did not love his wife, Julia.”
His wife’s name is Celia. Julia is the woman he has a relationship with when he’s in his 30s. She’s Sebastian’s sister.
“We take it for granted, tougher and apart is inevitable elements of life, so why feeling resentful about FATE⁉️”
But it’s not fate. It’s a choice. Their choice. Just like my new, LO-lite. What he’s doing/how he’s treated me is a choice.
“Going to go that route”?
Hook up with a woman. You wrote that Binoche is the only woman you’d hook up with.
“His wife is a bit more feminine than Binoche, but the way less sexy.”
Good actress, though.
” I don’t know why I like those tragic roles. Between comedy and tragedy, I always chose the latter since young, as if I could resonate with tragic characters better. ”
The tragedies are more moving.
“I often had troubles to empathize with real people in reality, because they didn’t or did not how to communicate with me about stuff in their head/heart”
Some people aren’t all that expressive.
“Yes, once in her sole dance”
Sole dance?
“another time in Harold Pinter’s play”Betrayal”.”
That would be interesting.
“I also saw her sole abstract painting exhibit in French Consulate here.”
Describe that. That sounds interesting, too.
“Oh, boy! 🔥 🔥 only if I could adopt her mentality, I’d have lost my head in my last LE!”
I just looked it up. I’d forgotten I’d seen the trailer before but never watched the movie. I’ll have to see it.
“but always sad because they can’t get profound emotional longing fulfilled. that’s why tragedies often have such heard/soul touching quality.”
Yes
“I like both Huge Grant and Rupert Graves, don’t know James Wiley.”
I just watched the scene where Rupert Graves climbs through the window into James Wilby’s room. OMG, the way Graves is looking at Wilby. 🙂
“Saw it twice, so sad… making me almost unable to breathe… Hopkins character is stupid!”
It’s so sad. At the end, he finally realizes the mistake he made in letting her go … but it’s too late.
“I love “The room with a view”. the book and movie.”
I couldn’t get into the movie. I didn’t dislike like it, but it’s not one of my favorites.
“Helena B. Carter is my 2nd top favorite actress, although not so sexy or mysterious; the 3rd one is another French.”
I like her a lot. Who’s the third?
Snow,
” All men stay in one-side of the building, the women totally separated on another;”
I have no problem with that. 🙂
“If you can afford the time and really want to tame the brain — like a wild horse before it is trained, I highly recommend you try one retreat, 12 days together with the traveling time. (drive or bus, someone will pick you up from a nearby bus stop. )”
Thank you for the detailed description. That sounds really hard core. I don’t know if I could do that. During the hours of meditation, are you sitting in a big room with other people, in complete silence? So it’s not guided?
Marcia,
Yes. It’s in a big hall, totally silent, never guided; which would be a form of communication and distraction. Your eyes are closed. Most people sit on several big cushions, elderly could sit on chairs… Everyone has 2 x2 square yard space to sit. During the break, you can mediate in your own room, if you think you can discipline yourself for doing nothing else. The room only has a double bed (you bring your own bedding stuff), a closet for clothes and a bathroom, and sitting cushions. No desk or chair.
Meditator meditate on their breaths and all sorts of “stuff”, old and new, coming and going through their head, just like in reality. The mind is indeed like an untamed horse, running freely to all directions.
Obviously, one can’t shut down random or intrusive thoughts and emotions… so watch them internally, NOT try to push them away. There are techniques to be taught to slowly tame one’s mind. Group sitting is more effective, evidently.
It’s a truly hard-core training, and everyone thought they could not take it; but most people stayed to the end when your head feels so clearer, lighter, and freer. There are moments of “high” — feeling you could rise your body in the air against gravity, in the end, if one has meditated well.
People, especially the teacher and helpers all are very humble, extraordinarily nice. With old students’ donation, the sites are getting better and more comfortable in their living conditions. They are all in the middle of woods, where you can’t hear traffic.
Not to be judgmental here, I sense you could benefit from such a retreat. Just think about it and plan it much earlier than an actual retreat time.
The most challenging part is not the 10-day silence sitting, but how one carries on the meditation in their daily life afterwards — ideally 0.5 hour first thing in the morning and 0.5 hour last thing at night, and any other time whenever there is a need.
Snow,
“Not to be judgmental here, I sense you could benefit from such a retreat. Just think about it and plan it much earlier than an actual retreat time.”
I’m not disagreeing with you, but I don’t think I’d make it one day. I can’t sit in silence like that for hours and hours. I have trouble sitting through a 10-minute, guided meditation. And then to go back to a room at night with nothing … not even a book to read. I can’t imagine signing up for that. I could see the benefit of no cell phones or laptops or TV. But … nothing at all?
Marcia,
Yes, you CAN! Anyone here or there CAN!
You can once you’re in that environment, after you determine to train the wild-horse mind….
You could not do even 10 minutes sitting now, is because your mind has never been truly trained/tamed…
Afterwards, your mind is like a tamed horse, listening to your will and directions. You’d feel like a renewed person with a renewed mind, if not a renewed “babe”… 😊
If you want to challenge my conviction, you’ll have to sit through Vipassana once to refute my belief in you! 😆
You can leave there anytime if you really feel you can’t continue. No one is going to hold your legs down…
So think about signing it first (or to be put on a waiting list) to get a spot, you can always change your mind later…
“Call me Cordelia” did it before (not sure how many times) and highly recommended it here before.
Snow,
“Afterwards, your mind is like a tamed horse, listening to your will and directions. You’d feel like a renewed person with a renewed mind, if not a renewed “babe”… 😊”
Lol. Ok. 🙂
“If you want to challenge my conviction, you’ll have to sit through Vipassana once to refute my belief in you! 😆”
So this Vipassana, can I try a shorter session, like maybe one that is an hour? 🙂
Marcia,
In hour? ABSOLUTELY not! I’m not sure whether they’d take a new student for 3-day course; there are 3 day courses in every site.
To get into Vipassana’s mode of meditation, one cannot try an hour or just three days for the first time. Does training a wild horse take just one hour or one day?
It’s the nature of “wildness” of human mind that needs to be tamed, NOT to be taken away.
Now, think of it, I may never have reached extreme LE intensity as some of you, because my mind, even not in active/daily practice, was already “tamed” to a certain extend. Can we make a timed horse wild again? It can be poked by an incident, but never entirely wild again….
Snow,
“In hour? ABSOLUTELY not! I’m not sure whether they’d take a new student for 3-day course; there are 3 day courses in every site.”
Maybe 3 days. I’d consider it.
“Does training a wild horse take just one hour or one day?”
No, but if you try to jam the wild horse in a prison for too long, it will try to bust out.
Marcia,
The mediation hall (in MA) is about 3 or 4 typical movie theaters size. 😀
You can check with the centers to see if they’d take 3-day course for a brand new student. But I can assure you, one’s mind habit cannot be changed in even three 3-day courses.
I remember in my 1st retreat, I vomited my lunch out everyday for the first 5 days. By 8.5th day, I felt weightless, ready to “rise” to the sky… the feeling is so “high” that it can be matched the LE high without any worries but with a crystal like mind…
That’s why I often said that I KNOW meditation could induce or produce dopamine. Now, I’m able to do it at home without being in a group…
Snow,
“I remember in my 1st retreat, I vomited my lunch out everyday for the first 5 days.”
Wow. Why were you throwing up? Was the meditation bringing up all kinds of psychological stuff?
“That’s why I often said that I KNOW meditation could induce or produce dopamine. Now, I’m able to do it at home without being in a group…”
I did not know that, either. Well, I will definitely consider it.
So to answer your question in a post I now can’t find … 🙂 I made an appointment with a therapist.
I know what I’m supposed to do. I’ve read a lot about limerence. I’ve watched any number of videos on it. But this whole recent experience has brought up all those feelings. I can’t remember the last time I had this much anxiety.
Marcia,
“Wow. Why were you throwing up? Was the meditation bringing up all kinds of psychological stuff?”
Yes, it would bring up all sorts of psychological stuff, past traumas if one has any. There were people seriously crying, sobbing, vomiting, fevering, angry… My roommate had to leave on the 6th day due to her high fever or some emotional pains… which are all normal reactions. (I did it in the midst of the terrible LE4.5 which made me even binge on ice cream; but no other type of binge happened ever after! )
I stayed to the last minute in my first treat and learned what High meant to my body and mind (never tried any illicit drugs for my entire life, so no comparison). Did two more 10-day and one 3-day serving, no more vomiting or other strong physical reaction.
“I did not know that, either. Well, I will definitely consider it.”
Can’t tell you enough how life-changing benefits it could bring, your own body and mind have to go thought it and keep meditation practiced regularly, if not everyday. Meditation itself can be addictive, because it brings “High” with your own body and mind.
“So to answer your question in a post I now can’t find … 🙂 I made an appointment with a therapist.”
I’m so glad that you are taking actions to help yourself. Now, with all your knowledge, you probably could educate her/him on limerence! Make sure s/he has experiences in trauma work or Complex PTSD.
“I know what I’m supposed to do. I’ve read a lot about limerence. I’ve watched any number of videos on it. But this whole recent experience has brought up all those feelings. I can’t remember the last time I had this much anxiety.”
I’m so sorry that your recent experience has brought you much more pains/anxiety (I absolutely know what it feels like). If not indispensable in your work, please take some time off for only YOURSELF.
Please remember, psychotherapy/Stoic Meditation is mental work, and Vipassana is physical/spiritual work; Each cannot substitute each other, but together they will aid our mental and physical wellbeing to a level one may not know yet.
Please keep me posted. 🫂
Snow,
“Yes, it would bring up all sorts of psychological stuff, past traumas if one has any. There were people seriously crying, sobbing, vomiting, fevering, angry… ”
What do you think about for hours and hours? Did you have trouble focusing your mind?
“Did two more 10-day and one 3-day serving, no more vomiting or other strong physical reaction.”
You are a strong person! I mean mentally strong.
“your own body and mind have to go thought it and keep meditation practiced regularly, if not everyday. ”
You meditate every day since coming home from these 10-day and 3-day meditation sessions?
“I’m so glad that you are taking actions to help yourself. Now, with all your knowledge, you probably could educate her/him on limerence!”
True, I probably will have to educate them.
“Make sure s/he has experiences in trauma work or Complex PTSD.”
Ok
“Please remember, psychotherapy/Stoic Meditation is mental work, and Vipassana is physical/spiritual work”
Talk about that a little more. The difference between the two.
“Please keep me posted. 🫂”
That’s sweet of you. Thank you. I’m feeling a little better. I don’t think I really like him as a person. From what I’ve learned recently. But the feelings are still there. Which makes no sense.
It really makes me see how much of limerence (for lack of a better word, as I’m maybe partially limerent) is about projection. I really had created a whole other person in my head, and now I’ve gotten to know him a little better. I didn’t have that opportunity with my most recent LO. And I did often wonder that about him, even while limerent. If I could just go on a date or two with him, it might kill this whole thing.
Marcia,
Please bear with me that this post might be very technical, boring, “non-sensical”, and verbose to some Western ears!
Metaphor for mind: a wild horse 🐴
Qi/Chi/energy: circulate inside body (all sentient being), like electricity flowing, like blood (but it is not blood) 〰️ (there is Qi/meridian map, AI it).
Eastern health/medicine principle: keep Qi/energy circulate smoothly without any blockage— all mental stresses and physical illness/ailments.
Healthy condition: Qi flows/circulates through body smoothly, few blockage in the body, one is mostly in good mood, look at babies.
Unhealthy condition: physical illness or mental stress cause (correspond with) “blockage” in some parts of body— (blockage in head) cased by headaches, covid, tumors, etc; (blockage in stomach churning, migraine, muscle arches, etc)— job loss, griefs, limerence, breakups, etc;
Western treating physical illness (PI): pills
Eastern treating PI: pills and herbs (in mild cases)
Western way for mental stress (MS): talks and pills
Eastern way for MS and prevention of PI: — regular meditations
“What do you think about for hours and hours? Did you have trouble focusing your mind? “
An untrained mind cannot really concentrate on anything too long — not even 5-10 minutes; it runs all over places just like the wild horse during waking hours.
This happened during Vipassana as well at the beginning. Of course, I, as well as anyone else, had trouble focusing the mind on anything, even just for 1 minute! It’s totally normal and Ok. You learn a breathing technique (at beginning — just focus on a part around your nose or mouth and breathe naturally), which is metaphorically like a whistle or melody to your “wild horse”.
Gradually, you could concentrate from 30 seconds, to 1, 5, 10min… Your whistle or melody is elongated, and the wild horse slows down or pauses longer and longer, as IT hears your melody.
Meanwhile, do not resist any intrusive thoughts and emotions, just WATCH and make a note of it: “ah, it comes again.. that damned LO, the stupid text, the idiot, 😡 😢 😞 … is here again.” Even if you want, watch how long you can actually CONCENTRATE on any particular thought or emotion there?⁉️ If your wild horse can, then you don’t NEED any form of meditation or Yoga to ride IT.
“You are a strong person! I mean mentally strong. “
Trust me when I got to my first retreat, I was about falling apart; otherwise, I would not have vomited so much. The end of LE4.5 brought me the worst sense of “abandonment” which surely triggered my old cptsd (the way worse than LE7 did).
But my will and ability to endure were trained young on by COO & Dad, on independent matters (unrelated to anyone else) — once a decision is made, stick to what you determined to do until its end (success or failure does not matter). Then, you’d always have a sense of COMPLETION /ACCOMPLISHMENT. Halfway of doing anything was looked down upon, and the motivation of “keep/save one’s own face” would push majority of COO folks to do beneficial things at least to themselves, if not to show off.
“You meditate every day since coming home from these 10-day and 3-day meditation sessions?”
Oh, I wish I had, but only sporadically: in some periods everyday, in other none. It’s very hard to keep it up everyday. So the result of one retreat would fade in time, without harming the melody, the “tamed” horse runs wildly again. (Some people take 5 10-day course, then are promoted to 5 20-day courses., then 30-day course, etc).
However, once your horse has been trained/tamed once for 10 days, IT would “remember” and follow the learned melody. So if you can pick it up anytime even for 15min first/last thing each day or every other day, or anytime you feel like. The wild horse would calm down or become clearer/better concentrated. A mood change could be from feeling deep serenity to dopamine surge 📈
Back in Aug — Sept 2023, I mixed Vipassana with my own self-hypothesis techniques. After two weeks of experiments, I conjured up a “switch” in my “wild horse” and can tune the switch on (into meditative mood) in 2-10 minutes — literally felt the switch flipping — NOT Glimmer switch. I can do it anywhere anytime, as long as I can close my eyes safely (not in public).
If your therapist specializes in cptsd, ask her/him in advance what modules they use to treat it. There are different methods, some could make one’s cptsd worse, e.g. reenactment or exposure is not suitable for every cptsd “survivor”.
My one therapist harshly applied the reenactment of old traumas, almost re-traumatized me when I felt very vulnerable (it would not now). So I quit her. Then I got a very feminine, “indulging mother” type, who frustrated me to no end, so I left her.
[“Please remember, psychotherapy/Stoic Meditation is mental work, and Vipassana is physical/spiritual work” Talk about that a little more. The difference between the two. ]
Psychotherapy or Stoic meditation focus on rationality, analysis, deduction, cause and effect…. thus mental work. Knowing why a wild horse runs wildly does not mean we can tame it even we lock it in a pin.
Vipassana is “medicine”, not just for Limerence, but all kinds of negative emotions. It does not analyze a cause of symptoms, but treat it. Why? Because it works with Qi/energy/internal electricity. Meditation pushes Qi circulate, eventually breaking all sorts of blockages. How exactly? All Western scientists or doctors do not know yet, it mysteriously works, called “mysticism”. I talked about this in the Fall of 23 and I KNOW it works, at least on myself.
Once this Qi/electricity breaks inner energy-blockage, dis-eased body feels better and one’s mood naturally feels joyful. Look at babies and small children (without much mental stresses yet). Baby and Children’s Qi flow is much smoother….
“I’m feeling a little better. I don’t think I really like him as a person. From what I’ve learned recently. But the feelings are still there. Which makes no sense. “
That seems to be many shared experiences here: LE feelings can’t be reduced and killed even it’s for a dodge LO. It’s our “wild horse” got stuck, spinning in a fixed, neural spot in the brain, and we need to somehow rescue the Wild Horse out of the spot. Yet, conscious mind alone is NOT enough, body has do its work to help out — thus Vipassana, the simplest and toughest kind to tame the Wild Horse. I can do a short one even between two posts here.
“It really makes me see how much of limerence (for lack of a better word, as I’m maybe partially limerent) is about projection. I really had created a whole other person in my head, and now I’ve gotten to know him a little better.“
That was what happened to me with ET — projected my own Phantom (coming from the childhood) onto him, seeing him as my idealized Phantom. Later after I got to know him better with his flaws, I gradually reclaimed my Phantom back to me, even before coming to LwL on 7/21/23.
“I didn’t have that opportunity with my most recent LO. And I did often wonder that about him, even while limerent. If I could just go on a date or two with him, it might kill this whole thing.”
I don’t think you could with just one or two date, they may not be enough to kill the whole thing. It depends on each limerent’s personality, childhood, LO’s personality, action/reaction, their LE’s strength and length, etc.
Vipassana or any other meditation module ALONE will NOT kill LE, either; but they can reduce degree/intensity of (all sorts) anxiety, fear, longing, anger, sadness, etc, while still in the throe or aftermath of limerence.
Are you in LC/NC with this most recent LO? It’s really hard when they are physically around, because our neural system helpless reacts to their presence even if you don’t at all interact with them.
I so hope you can combine your therapies with a REAL meditation (not from Youtube.) I heard Zen mediation is worse and more strict than Vipassana.
Appendix:
when you meditative on your intrusive thoughts and emotions (painful as they may be), REALLY FOCUS on them, (NO resisting) while trying to breathe naturally, then they will “back up” and leave you! Trust me on this!
Envision this: those unwanted thoughts, negative feelings, unpleasant physical sensations rash into your mind and demand your attention; you stare them back without losing your equilibrium — your even breath; so you both just stare at each other; then they get bored (by Qi’s pushing/circulating) and depart.
Snow,
Thank you for the detailed response. 🙂
“Unhealthy condition: physical illness or mental stress cause (correspond with) “blockage” in some parts of body— (blockage in head) cased by headaches, covid, tumors, etc; (blockage in stomach churning, migraine, muscle arches, etc)— job loss, griefs, limerence, breakups, etc;”
Are these the kinds of things they use acupuncture to help? To unblock the blockages?
“Western treating physical illness (PI): pills
Eastern treating PI: pills and herbs (in mild cases)
Western way for mental stress (MS): talks and pills
Eastern way for MS and prevention of PI: — regular meditations”
I’d add the Western tradition is pills and surgery. It never looks at the whole person — diet, stress, lifestyle, etc. Just addresses the symptoms.
“Meanwhile, do not resist any intrusive thoughts and emotions, just WATCH and make a note of it: “ah, it comes again.. that damned LO, the stupid text, the idiot, 😡 😢 😞 … is here again.” ”
Lol. Yeah, that’s pretty much it. Or: “I can’t BELEIVE this mofo!” 🙂
“But my will and ability to endure were trained young on by COO & Dad, on independent matters (unrelated to anyone else) — once a decision is made, stick to what you determined to do until its end (success or failure does not matter). ”
I think this is a really important point. I read that a lot of people who are working on getting their doctorates will actually get depressed once they earn the degree. All that time, slogging away, studying, preparing, striving … they’ll finally get what they want … and they’ll be down! Why? Because it wasn’t HAVING the degree, it was the experience of GETTING it! The journey to get it.
“However, once your horse has been trained/tamed once for 10 days, IT would “remember” and follow the learned melody. So if you can pick it up anytime even for 15min first/last thing each day or every other day, or anytime you feel like. The wild horse would calm down or become clearer/better concentrated.”
That’s really good to know. It’s almost like tapping back into those new neural pathways.
“My one therapist harshly applied the reenactment of old traumas, almost re-traumatized me when I felt very vulnerable (it would not now). So I quit her. Then I got a very feminine, “indulging mother” type, who frustrated me to no end, so I left her.”
So did you finally find one who helped you?
“Knowing why a wild horse runs wildly does not mean we can tame it even we lock it in a pin.”
Yes! I know what I’m doing. Mentally. But I can’t stop the feelings.
“Please remember, psychotherapy/Stoic Meditation is mental work, and Vipassana is physical/spiritual work”
Ok. Now I see the difference between the two.
” I gradually reclaimed my Phantom back to me, even before coming to LwL on 7/21/23.”
What do you mean? What does reclaim the Phantom mean?
“I don’t think you could with just one or two date, they may not be enough to kill the whole thing. It depends on each limerent’s personality, childhood, LO’s personality, action/reaction, their LE’s strength and length, etc.”
I mean, maybe more than one or two dates. But I think the experience of just sitting at a restaurant and trying to make conversation over a meal would have opened my eyes. I don’t think we would have had the much to say to each other, and being able to communicate and “share/care” with someone is important to me.
“Are you in LC/NC with this most recent LO? It’s really hard when they are physically around, because our neural system helpless reacts to their presence even if you don’t at all interact with them.”
Well, here’s where these is some good news. It’s really low LC. They changed the schedule a couple of months ago, so I don’t see him often. (That’s what prompted him initially contacting me like he did.) And he’s not reaching out anymore, and I’m not either.
I really, really, really do NOT understand why he told me all that crap (and made plans to hang out!) if he had no intention of following through. I just don’t get it. It’s a really selfish thing to do.
I appreciate all of your information. I’m feeling better. Thanks for listening. It’s still bothering me and I’m still anxious but he’s giving me nothing to work with. I know that. There’s nothing I can do.
Marcia,
You’re welcome! ☺️
“Are these the kinds of things they use acupuncture to help? To unblock the blockages?”
Yes. Acupuncture definitely helps, but a skillful acupuncturist is needed, (if 1mm off the right meridian, it would not work). I tried once for 6 months, it did not help much. The Russian acupuncturist is also a licensed MD and my long-term acquaintance. This approach is that you rely on someone else again. I always wanted to solve a stress relate-issues that can be taken care of by my own hands, if all possible.
“I’d add the Western tradition is pills and surgery. It never looks at the whole person — diet, stress, lifestyle, etc. Just addresses the symptoms.”
Precisely! A great Chinese herbalist would ask you about your entire life style and adjust dosage and content of herbs s/he has prescribed to you every four days. I had one here but then he retired, and never found another good one. Usually, a treatment involves from 1 to 3 months of herbs intaking depending on root-causes of one’s symptoms. Herbs primarily target on roots/causes, so it takes much longer time to treat.
“I think this is a really important point. I read that a lot of people who are working on getting their doctorates will actually get depressed once they earn the degree. “
I told my own story once here: before I took off the graduation gown, after getting my diploma and two writing rewards, I felt depression in the afternoon on the commencement day at an Ivey League Univ. My family and friends were taking some picture of me in the campus. And my mind went: what’s next degree/study I would go for? And clear depression crept in…
“All that time, slogging away, studying, preparing, striving … they’ll finally get what they want … and they’ll be down! Why? Because it wasn’t HAVING the degree, it was the experience of GETTING it! The journey to get it.”
🆎, the journey itself was the MOST FULFILLING part in the world! It might be the same subconscious incentive for some Limerents: chase a LO itself and just enjoy the high of chasing!
Once LO reciprocates, limerent’s limerence maybe gone. There are a couple of LE cases in the room which sounded like that; mine was a bit like it: I was worried (at some point) that I’d lose my LE affection if I get too closer to ET or if he truly reciprocates, then what (in my case, it would be a realistic dead end)?
“That’s really good to know. It’s almost like tapping back into those new neural pathways.”
Yes, it is, just like to rehearse your dulled whistling or violin fiddling, and then to clear up those jammed neutral pathways, to let Qi flows smoothly.
“So did you finally find one who helped you?”
Nope! (Swore not to go another one). I found LwL and helped myself mostly, with your collective, invisible accompany, positive or negative. I become a better Stoic and Buddhist… 😀
“Yes! I know what I’m doing. Mentally. But I can’t stop the feelings.”
Yes, physical/spiritual meditations and Stoic reasoning /meditation would help here.
”What do you mean? What does reclaim the Phantom mean?”
I gradually realized (took more than 4 years) that ET was not the same as the Phantom in my head — an idealized parental figure who never existed in my previous life, but a fantasized figure I conjured up since childhood to soothe my loneliness pains and bring some vague hopes for the future.
How to claim the Phantom back: each time I bumped into him to chitchat, I was given evidence that he didn’t respond (to my emails) or behaved as I had thought/imagined he would. After a while, there was this ghostly figure, who felt by me, standing or sitting between us. ET knew about it.
Then when I monologued to him online in any hours at any places, he was the Phantom (not a real LO), just as ideal as I had wished/imagined him to be. His non-response to those monologues, served my imagination to stay “alive”. He later admitted that he knew it was very important to my healing to monologue to a totally open ear. That’s how my cptsd was gradually cured and healed. He played a non-judgmental, parental figure to the end!
“I mean, maybe more than one or two dates. But I think the experience of just sitting at a restaurant and trying to make conversation over a meal would have opened my eyes.”
Yes, any activities involving just you two would help see some realistic parts of him, which cannot be achieved through thinking or texting.
“I don’t think we would have had the much to say to each other, and being able to communicate and “share/care” with someone is important to me.”
Whether one has much to say to another can be detected from texting or emailing (just pick up any statement/topic from either side’s messages); but of course, it’s much better if the two can carry a causal dialogue in person. Yes, being able to care-free communicating, sharing/caring with another is most vital to me, too.
“Well, here’s where these is some good news. It’s really low LC. They changed the schedule a couple of months ago, so I don’t see him often. (That’s what prompted him initially contacting me like he did.) And he’s not reaching out anymore, and I’m not either.”
He did not want to “lose” your LE affections, contacted you first. It’s really good that you don’t have to bump into him that often.
“I really, really, really do NOT understand why he told me all that crap (and made plans to hang out!) if he had no intention of following through. I just don’t get it. It’s a really selfish thing to do.”
He sounds like a Sensor, who cannot let go anyone’s LE affections that would validate their deep insecurity, even if s/he is not available. It is indeed SELFISH!
“I appreciate all of your information. I’m feeling better. Thanks for listening.”
Of course, you’re one of INFPs here, I hope I can listen and understand you better, if unable to help you concretely.
“It’s still bothering me and I’m still anxious but he’s giving me nothing to work with. I know that. There’s nothing I can do.”
Here, try your printed Stoic meditation. Just ASSUME that there is nothing to do further in your association with him, and then go from there to live out your daily life purposefully….
Snow,
“Yes. Acupuncture definitely helps”
I’ve done it a few times, thought it’s been a while. You come out of the appointment feeling like you fell into another dimension of space and time. It’s powerful.
“This approach is that you rely on someone else again. I always wanted to solve a stress relate-issues that can be taken care of by my own hands, if all possible.”
That’s understandable.
“Precisely! A great Chinese herbalist would ask you about your entire life style and adjust dosage and content of herbs s/he has prescribed to you every four days.”
What kinds of stuff did you take?
“My family and friends were taking some picture of me in the campus. And my mind went: what’s next degree/study I would go for? And clear depression crept in…”
You were looking for your next challenge!
“Once LO reciprocates, limerent’s limerence maybe gone. ”
It actually happened to me. But it was the LO reciprocating to the point of wanting a full-blown relationship and continuing to show up. Once he was all in and demonstrated that, the limerence died. (Part of it was that he was all right away. Maybe if he’d been a little more patient and done things more slowly, it wouldn’t have died so quickly. Hard to say.) But it wasn’t just him disclosing similar feelings.
“Nope! (Swore not to go another one).”
I did the same thing. Swore I’d never do therapy again.
“I found LwL and helped myself mostly, with your collective, invisible accompany, positive or negative. I become a better Stoic and Buddhist… 😀”
Glad it helped you.
“I gradually realized (took more than 4 years) that ET was not the same as the Phantom in my head — an idealized parental figure who never existed in my previous life, but a fantasized figure I conjured up since childhood to soothe my loneliness pains and bring some vague hopes for the future.”
But isn’t every LO a Phantom? Someone we’ve projected our stuff onto? Someone we’ve created in our heads?
“His non-response to those monologues, served my imagination to stay “alive”.”
See, I would have been the opposite. No response would have deterred me from sending any more emails.
“He later admitted that he knew it was very important to my healing to monologue to a totally open ear.”
See … that’s seductive. He’s tapping into you emotionally.
“Yes, any activities involving just you two would help see some realistic parts of him, which cannot be achieved through thinking or texting.”
Sorry. I wasn’t clear. Let’s call the most recent LO “LO-lite.” We did have a few decent talks, but I don’t think we have a ton in common. However, I was referring to my most recent full-blown LO. I talked to him often but not for very long at any given time. And we had little in common. I think we would have struggled to hold a dinner-length conversation. Chatting for 10 minutes at work is very different than going out on a date.
“Whether one has much to say to another can be detected from texting or emailing”
True. I never texted or emailed my full-blown LO. LO-lite … some emails. But most of the conversations were discussions of feelings and then flirting and talk of meeting up. There wasn’t a lot of “conversation” in getting to know each other.
“He did not want to “lose” your LE affections, contacted you first.”
I don’t think he knew how I felt. He seemed surprised.
I didn’t know on my end, either. How he felt.
“He sounds like a Sensor, who cannot let go anyone’s LE affections that would validate their deep insecurity, even if s/he is not available. It is indeed SELFISH!”
That I agree with. Once he did know, he wanted the validation.
“Of course, you’re one of INFPs here”
What enneagram style are you?
“Here, try your printed Stoic meditation. Just ASSUME that there is nothing to do further in your association with him, and then go from there to live out your daily life purposefully….”
Ok. Sigh. Now it’s just disappointment.
Snow,
“Yes, I heard similar saying before. I believe it’s true, since our emotional hues at the accessing time somewhat changes a memory, as little as toning it up/down or as much as turning it upside down”
What’s interesting is that … I had idealized my youth now that I am older … I mean, the memory of it (or the false memory of it), but now that I’m going through whatever it is I’m going through with this guy, I’m reminded of what I’d removed from the memories. The longing, the hoping, the sitting by the phone.
” I strongly agree with Lovisa that one needs to appreciate life more in all its aspects, even tiny bit good stuff from bad experiences.”
That is something good to remember. Instead of focusing on all the negative aspects.
“Oh, no! He sounded so mean and cruel, and you suffered more than I could imagine… I’m now in tears for your pains… 😢
That’s sweet of you to say. I don’t know if I’d call him cruel as much as selfish. Not really caring (or bothering to notice) about how his behavior affected others.
“Yes, my Russian gf knew about ET and its beginning story. She thought it was ridiculous and I was crazy, and told me to cut it cold turkey.”
Oh, I’m sorry. That sounds a bit dismissive. But I have to agree … best to cut off an LE cold turkey. VERY, VERY hard to do.
“I saw it experienced in COO but also really rare. It’s an ideal that COO tradition and philosophies have advocated. Myself just envisioned its plausibility in my mind, not in my reality yet.”
Ideally, the person is your best friend. And you want to have sex with them. But for me, those tend to be two people. 🙂
” Here in LwL, although unprofessional, we get our individual responses, so much more engaging and educating in both directions, right?”
Yes, definitely.
“I often had a need /an urge to verbally express myself since young (no one really bothered to listen to my little busy, sensitive head)”
Were your parents neglectful? I know you’re written your mother was abusive.
“Such a need is very hard to be met since everyone has their own plate to fill. ”
As an adult, yes. I’m always surprised when people ask me questions beyond “how’s it going?” and make an effort to actually listen. (Co-workers, acquaintances, etc.)
” we are able to frankly share our deep thoughts and sentimentality with few like-minded 👻 👻… I so appreciate it.”
Very true. Ain’t nobody understands a limerent like another limerent. 🙂
“It’s a sign of deep insecurity, but I could not figure out where it came from. While asked, he did not give me any straight answer, but repeated the line twice. This a baffling personality trait I clearly did not share with him.”
It is a sign of insecurity. I don’t understand it, either, and it’s not something that motivates me. I mean, I want to be liked, but not everyone is going to. And I’m ok with that.
“One of traditional COO core philosophies is to defuse internal conflict (inevitable always) so as to obtain inner harmony and true contentment. ”
It’s not a bad goal. What I mean is … I want this person, but I shouldn’t. Like wanting to run toward them and run away at the same time.
“Talk, talk, and talk! Communicating your thoughts clearly with them and getting back their reasons for not giving or their inability to give. Clear and honest communication is the only way to get the message across.”
In an ideal world, yes. But some people deflect and dodge serious conversations. They want to keep things on the surface.
“In COO in such a situation, we would closely examine pros and cons of such a relationship. Do pros weigh more than your particular needs? Is anyway you could compromise without what you need? (I would assume eventually you could very kindly reject to take whatever they want to give you, assuming they’re very smart, sensible, and skillful. If they are not, why do you want to be stuck in the tango?) ”
I was speaking more about family. We’ve been fed a fantasy about this sense of support and belonging that family provides. It doesn’t always. And often, you just have to accept that what they give you is what you’re going to get. It won’t get better. And it’s hard, because part of you resents that you don’t have better relatives. 🙂
“Remember the pain (the sense of abandonment in this LE had possibly led to my lymphoma development…only lucky it was the least fatal kind.)?”
Do you mean the stress of the LE?
“I was never confident all my life that others would NOT “abandon” me due to some of my innate or molded shortcomings.”
I understand what you’re saying. You feel like you’re not enough.
“That’s a very bad luck to bump into such an unkind LO. And our mind in the midst limerence is often faulty, which I can clearly see now.”
I don’t know if he’s unkind. I can’t get inside his head (don’t want to!) so I don’t know what he’s thinking, but he pulled something really screwy. I feel like he ran me over with his car. I never should have opened the door to him, but … there’s that internal conflict! 🙂
” We’ve learned how to choose what to do once we realize we’re emotionally attracted to “an idiot” LO. ”
Sure. Logically, intellectually, I know what to do. But knowing what to do — maybe even doing it — doesn’t change the feelings. Or the anxiety.
“We limerent type is prone to “wrong” LO attraction that, as you say, might be subconsciously genminated by our unresolved “stuff”. ”
I have no doubt this is triggered by all my personal “stuff.” But, I won’t lie … going through this … it’s the most emotion I’ve felt in years. It’s reminded me: I’m not dead yet. I’m still here.
I guess it’s what MJ is asking. How do you accept “normal” attractions when you’ve had limerent attractions, when you know what it feels like to have someone put your soul into a jar and shake it up? Even though you’re well aware this person is 18 shades of wrong for you.
“I was thinking about the time when you feel and sense that you’re going to slip into a LE, after some “innocent” interactions with LO, ”
I can only speak for myself, but I don’t know that I’ve ever had “innocent” interactions with an LO. I knew that I was “crossing the line” into some territory that I should probably stay away from. Like with this recent person, the disclosure happened because I did something to open the door for it to happen. I didn’t have any idea what he was going to do, but I still shouldn’t have opened the door. Because I knew I was into him.
“obviously; let’s say in the end of harmony period?”
Not sure what you mean.
“I have only concerns about possibly, ignorantly hurting others, their feelings or sensitivities, since my sensibility is shaped by the unique personal experiences and a cultural molding, vastly different from majority of Westerners.”
I understand you come from a different culture, but I think most peoples’ feelings are shaped by personal experiences and we can all inadvertently hurt others. Interactions, words said that could be misinterpreted.
“You see how much I had to explain to LaR and you (and some others) just to get my intentions, ideas, and purposes crossed… ”
Yes. I didn’t understand what you wanted from your LO. Now, to be clear, I think platonic limerence is entirely possible. I think I’ve experienced it myself.
“The LE is totally gone, so I’m no longer worried about his thoughts or emotions towards me. That’s how I think and feel now, which hasn’t been tested out yet. There is no need to initiate such a test.”
I completely agree. Why tempt fate?
Marcia,
“What’s interesting is that … I had idealized my youth now that I am older … I mean, the memory of it (or the false memory of it), but now that I’m going through whatever it is I’m going through with this guy, I’m reminded of what I’d removed from the memories. “
I see. I could not idealize my youth or selectively remember only shinny memories, because the lessons learned from each failed experience are hard to fade, although the reasons might be vague/fuzzy (the pains faded over time but intellectually remembered). I’d be really hard on myself if knowingly repeating the old mistakes (I was always an annoying perfectionist, could barely relax in the past).
“The longing, the hoping, the sitting by the phone. “
Yeah, I have those memories in some of my small “LEs”. (I quote LE because only LE7 was an “authentic” one with its various stages. )
”That is something good to remember. Instead of focusing on all the negative aspects. “
Unfortunately, the majority of people I met (more from this side of the world and Mom) always focused on what they did NOT have, and ignored or downplayed what they already got/obtained (even through strife)
“That’s sweet of you to say. I don’t know if I’d call him cruel as much as selfish. Not really caring (or bothering to notice) about how his behavior affected others. “
So you’re saying he’s understandably selfish, or ignorantly “cruel”? Do you think your empathy might have brought you more unnecessary pains after he already rejected you outright? To my ear, such a clear push-n-pull is extremely selfish or amounts to being cruel.
“Ideally, the person is your best friend. And you want to have sex with them. But for me, those tend to be two people. “
We have the same ideal here, but I’m not sure how to get to that best-friend stage. I can’t “assign” two qualities to two people and may try to cultivate a better friendship on the same person. Glimmer can’t be cultivated, but a solid friendship can grow with a certain amount of compatibility (70-80%) as the foundation and of mutual efforts.
“Were your parents neglectful? I know you’re written your mother was abusive.“
Very much. I spent from 50 day — 7 yrs old in a daycare and weekcare, with an exception of 1.5 years with Granny, thank God! Later (started at 6), my mother would only pay attention to me when she needed me to run errands or scold me for doing household chores too slow or too late, which made me feel/think there was always something wrong with me, never enough — the origin of insecurity!
“Very true. Ain’t nobody understands a limerent like another limerent. “
Mostly true, not always… There were misunderstandings and even… 😀
“It is a sign of insecurity. I don’t understand it, either, and it’s not something that motivates me. I mean, I want to be liked, but not everyone is going to. And I’m ok with that. “
I’m same as you, and even beyond — I wanted to be liked pretty much only by people whom I like and care for. Otherwise, I’d just feel flattered; I don’t care about flattery, like Trifles. I never wanted “poppies” to “awe” or “drool” on me…
I don’t care about respect that much either, it’s something so abstract depending on others’ colored lens, not making me physically or mentally feel more meaningful or fulfilled. I only deeply wished/craved to be heard, understood, and totally accepted (ET provided them, or I just imagined he did — both worked.)
“It’s not a bad goal. What I mean is … I want this person, but I shouldn’t. Like wanting to run toward them and run away at the same time. “
I know that feeling. In COO, we’re taught and convinced (by family, friends, the community) to walk away from that tempting person. Your best friend might 🔨 your head pushing you to do what’s considered best for you. I was a “rebel”, so I tried to disobey behind their back.
“In an ideal world, yes. But some people deflect and dodge serious conversations. They want to keep things on the surface. “
Then, we have to walk away from those kind of people. Without deep and serious communications, ALL relationships would go sour sooner or later, I’m 120% convinced now!
“I was speaking more about family. We’ve been fed a fantasy about this sense of support and belonging that family provides. It doesn’t always. And often, you just have to accept that what they give you is what you’re going to get. “
Yes, one has no choice when dealing with family. We did not choose them and we can’t change them.
“It won’t get better. And it’s hard, because part of you resents that you don’t have better relatives. “
It’s Fate, why resent? What’s the use of the resentment? Here is one BIG place to practice Stoicism. I’m from a “fatalistic” culture, and rarely resent anything given by Fate and unchangeable, it’s wasting of our precious energy and moods.
“I understand what you’re saying. You feel like you’re not enough. “
That sense of inadequacy was given during my childhood and youth by both parents (Dad liked to challenge me intellectually and always spoke the last word — one of his narcissistic traits), the community and schools.
“I don’t know if he’s unkind. I can’t get inside his head (don’t want to!) so I don’t know what he’s thinking, but he pulled something really screwy. “
I know and accept that we can never get into another’s head, and making assumptions is unhelpful or even detrimental. So what we can do is to observe their behaviors. Actions, particular tiny deeds, speak so much louder. I’m very detail orentated, and can spot them easily.
“I feel like he ran me over with his car. I never should have opened the door to him, but … there’s that internal conflict! “
Did you feel he’d run over you before opening the door, or just realized afterwards? Did you sense/foresee anything coming beforehand? Could you just open the door ajar?
”Sure. Logically, intellectually, I know what to do. But knowing what to do — maybe even doing it — doesn’t change the feelings. Or the anxiety. “
True. Then Stoic practices could control anxiety, while not killing feelings. Anxiety comes from expectation, and Stoicism is to reduce expectations, not strifes. Otherwise, one becomes a pessimist.
“I have no doubt this is triggered by all my personal “stuff.” But, I won’t lie … going through this … it’s the most emotion I’ve felt in years. It’s reminded me: I’m not dead yet. I’m still here.”
I believe your feelings, that’s how I felt when the Glimmer for ET hit me. But is it the only way to remind us of not being dead yet? I personally think that some forms of creativity could bring us a strong sense of being alive. I always felt high when I completed a few meaningful lines/phrases of purple prose, as long as I was satisfied.
“I guess it’s what MJ is asking. How do you accept “normal” attractions when you’ve had limerent attractions, when you know what it feels like to have someone put your soul into a jar and shake it up? Even though you’re well aware this person is 18 shades of wrong for you. “
I was not brought up by a novelty-seeking culture, and a soul-shaking experience by a “person with 18 shades of wrong” would intensify or scare me, so I would not pursue it. I’ll settle for “normal” attractions. I don’t want to lose my control to anyone like that.
But if I’m swept into it suddenly with little choice, then after taking a soul ride up for a while, I’ll try to find a way to get out of the jar. I dislike the nausea of being shaken physically, emotionally or spiritually. I can deal with some mental “shaking” to truly learn new stuff.
“I can only speak for myself, but I don’t know that I’ve ever had “innocent” interactions with an LO. I knew that I was “crossing the line” into some territory that I should probably stay away from. “
I see. I was talking about DrL’s LE stage division —
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-key-stages-of-limerence/
The honeymoon stage is on the 2nd from the top of the chart.
“Like with this recent person, the disclosure happened because I did something to open the door for it to happen. I didn’t have any idea what he was going to do, but I still shouldn’t have opened the door. Because I knew I was into him. ”
Because he was unavailable? What were you expecting at the time? What were you wishing he would (not) do if your door was open? And you did not expect at all that he would disclose? Why was his disclosure so bad?
“I understand you come from a different culture, but I think most peoples’ feelings are shaped by personal experiences and we can all inadvertently hurt others. Interactions, words said that could be misinterpreted. “
True, it’s understandable. Still, a result (out of good intentions or ignorance) is that they’ve got hurt. I could help reduce/cure my own pains, but unable to assist the other side to do so. Maybe the sense of “helplessness” saddens me?
“Yes. I didn’t understand what you wanted from your LO. Now, to be clear, I think platonic limerence is entirely possible. I think I’ve experienced it myself. “
In theory, I believe it is possible, like in “Brideshead Revisited. I understand and envy that kind of strong, almost mysterious mental & spritual bonding; it can possibly last for an eternity. Yut I can’t foresee how it can be carried out in my reality: how do I get my physical or sensual/sensuous needs met? From another person aside from the platonic LO?
Snow,
“I could not idealize my youth or selectively remember only shinny memories, because the lessons learned from each failed experience are hard to fade, although the reasons might be vague/fuzzy (the pains faded over time but intellectually remembered). ”
When I wrote my “youth,” I was talking about my 20s through early 30s. There’s just this sense of possibility that does not exist when you get older. A sense of excitement, of going into a bar and realizing most of the guys are available. What could happen? Anything. That feeling doesn’t exist as a middle-aged person. And life has a sense of predictability to it. So I think this latest guy was stirring up that need for excitement.
But you’re right in that I’m glossing over all the “pains,” as you call them. 🙂 All the lessons learned. All the heartache.
“Unfortunately, the majority of people I met (more from this side of the world and Mom) always focused on what they did NOT have, and ignored or downplayed what they already got/obtained (even through strife)”
That’s very true.
“So you’re saying he’s understandably selfish, or ignorantly “cruel”?”
Not understandably selfish. Just focused on what he wanted. Maybe emotionally shallow.
“Do you think your empathy might have brought you more unnecessary pains after he already rejected you outright?
I was in denial for a long time. I told myself he wasn’t aware of the push-pull. He didn’t know what he was doing. I think he did. I think he wanted the attention. But I don’t think he was diabolical. I don’t think he’s evil. Just selfish.
“Glimmer can’t be cultivated, but a solid friendship can grow with a certain amount of compatibility (70-80%) as the foundation and of mutual efforts.”
To an extent, but I still think compatibility is similar to the glimmer in that it has to be innately there. I made a new friend recently, and I liked her right away. I don’t know exactly why. And we’ve since met up for the first time and just chatted away. Had a lot in common. So I think there has to be a certain level of simpatico, but you still can grow the compatibility if the simpatico is there.
“Very much. I spent from 50 day — 7 yrs old in a daycare and weekcare, with an exception of 1.5 years with Granny, thank God! Later (started at 6), my mother would only pay attention to me when she needed me to run errands or scold me for doing household chores too slow or too late, which made me feel/think there was always something wrong with me, never enough — the origin of insecurity!”
Where was your dad in all this?
“I’m same as you, and even beyond — I wanted to be liked pretty much only by people whom I like and care for. Otherwise, I’d just feel flattered; I don’t care about flattery, like Trifles. I never wanted “poppies” to “awe” or “drool” on me…”
I was thinking more of … I’ve started a new job and my co-workers may not be overly friendly. And I feel uncomfortable. People don’t have to necessarily have to like/love me, but it would be nice if we were all cordial/pleasant to each other. I don’t like a tense environment.
“I only deeply wished/craved to be heard, understood, and totally accepted (ET provided them, or I just imagined he did — both worked.)”
You’re speaking my language, my INFP friend! 🙂
” Your best friend might 🔨 your head pushing you to do what’s considered best for you.”
Like your best friend was trying to tell you about your LO.
“I was a “rebel”, so I tried to disobey behind their back.”
So you would still pursue these people or allow them to pursue you?
“Then, we have to walk away from those kind of people. Without deep and serious communications, ALL relationships would go sour sooner or later, I’m 120% convinced now!”
Actually, I’d say a lot of people don’t like serious conversations.
“Yes, one has no choice when dealing with family.”
Well, we do have a choice. We can walk away from family. Probably not necessary unless the relationship is really bad. But I’ve tried to put up some boundaries in terms of what I’ll do with them/time spent and I’ve adjusted my expectations. It’s what I’m forever trying to do. Adjust my expectations.
” I’m from a “fatalistic” culture, and rarely resent anything given by Fate and unchangeable, it’s wasting of our precious energy and moods.”
Yes. It’s just getting into that mindset.
“Dad liked to challenge me intellectually and always spoke the last word — one of his narcissistic traits”
So maybe a little bit of both? He strove to challenge you but did it in a narcissistic way?
“So what we can do is to observe their behaviors. ”
Yes, very true. Which is why this has been so demoralizing. His words were great; his actions not so much.
“Did you feel he’d run over you before opening the door, or just realized afterwards?”
After
“Did you sense/foresee anything coming beforehand?”
You mean before I opened the door? No. I didn’t expect the disclosure. But …. I knew my intentions weren’t friendship. I knew I was into him. So that was my point about stopping it at the glimmer. I could have done that. I didn’t need to poke the bear.
“Could you just open the door ajar?”
That what I told myself I was doing. I was lying to myself. He said in large part what I wanted to hear, but the door is now wide open. Would I have been disappointed if he’d just kept the door ajar? Yes. And there’s the conflict again.
“Anxiety comes from expectation, and Stoicism is to reduce expectations.”
That’s a good way of putting it. What anxiety is. And, yes, I need to reduce my expectations.
“I personally think that some forms of creativity could bring us a strong sense of being alive. I always felt high when I completed a few meaningful lines/phrases of purple prose, as long as I was satisfied.”
True. But it’s still not quite the same.
“I was not brought up by a novelty-seeking culture, and a soul-shaking experience by a “person with 18 shades of wrong” would intensify or scare me”
I think the fear is part of the fun. 🙂
“I don’t want to lose my control to anyone like that.”
I just feel like I’m in control most of the time; kinda of exciting to lose it.
” I dislike the nausea of being shaken physically, emotionally or spiritually.”
I like it and I don’t. It’s the conflict.
“I see. I was talking about DrL’s LE stage division —”
So I tested the waters. To use Dr. L’s chart. And now I’m in, if not total mental capture, a big chunk of mental capture.
I didn’t have to test the waters.
“Because he was unavailable?”
Are you asking me if I shouldn’t have tested the waters because he was unavailable? Yes.
“What were you expecting at the time?”
Chit chat. Jokes.
“What were you wishing he would (not) do if your door was open?”
I’m not sure what you’re asking because you put “not” in the sentence.
“And you did not expect at all that he would disclose?”
No
” Why was his disclosure so bad?”
Because it triggered me
“I could help reduce/cure my own pains, but unable to assist the other side to do so. Maybe the sense of “helplessness” saddens me?”
But do you have a better sense now of ways to notice your impact on other people? To be more compassionate?
Marcia,
“When I wrote my “youth,” I was talking about my 20s through early 30s. There’s just this sense of possibility that does not exist when you get older. A sense of excitement, of going into a bar and realizing most of the guys are available. What could happen? Anything. “
I didn’t have much such experiences. I was married from middle 20s to early 30s. But even after the divorce, I was never a bar goer and didn’t like bar hoppers, either, they intimidated me even when I was with a group of friends.
“That feeling doesn’t exist as a middle-aged person. And life has a sense of predictability to it. So I think this latest guy was stirring up that need for excitement.”
Quite understandable!
“Not understandably selfish. Just focused on what he wanted. Maybe emotionally shallow.”
Much less so in COO, I witnessed a lot. Most men in courtship gave a lot more to girls, not the other way around. In a macho culture, girls are not supposed to chase.
“I was in denial for a long time. I told myself he wasn’t aware of the push-pull. He didn’t know what he was doing. I think he did. I think he wanted the attention. But I don’t think he was diabolical. I don’t think he’s evil. Just selfish.”
I was a bit sarcastic when I used the word “diabolical”. I haven’t glimmered at any “diabolical” guys, but 2 or 3 narcs (just with strong traits)
“To an extent, but I still think compatibility is similar to the glimmer in that it has to be innately there. “
Totally agree! Like Adam’s clip shows, 3 seconds is plenty for us women to feel whether a strong attraction is there. Compatibility is for later to grow together more.
“So I think there has to be a certain level of simpatico, but you still can grow the compatibility if the simpatico is there.”
Yes, two willing hearts could always grow simpatico together! (A new word for me).
“I was thinking more of … I’ve started a new job and my co-workers may not be overly friendly. And I feel uncomfortable. People don’t have to necessarily have to like/love me, but it would be nice if we were all cordial/pleasant to each other. I don’t like a tense environment.”
In a job, yes. I need/want to do work as best as I could… and get cordial with all my colleagues. I like chitchat stuff better nowadays, but still mainly focus on own tasks. I always have 2-3 colleague/friends no matter where I worked.
“Actually, I’d say a lot of people don’t like serious conversations.”
In my eyes, that would cause big problems in a serious relationship. It’s unwise to avoid important conversations and dialogues, so as to prevent future breakups.
“Well, we do have a choice. We can walk away from family. “
Not in my situation. I have to take care of my narc Mom until she exists the world.
“Probably not necessary unless the relationship is really bad. But I’ve tried to put up some boundaries in terms of what I’ll do with them/time spent and I’ve adjusted my expectations. It’s what I’m forever trying to do. Adjust my expectations.”
It sounds like you’re doing everything Stoic with your family! 🫂
”So maybe a little bit of both? He strove to challenge you but did it in a narcissistic way?”
Yes, I think that’s what happened. But he had a habit that in front of others, he’d put me down (one of COO stupid cultural behaviors) and gloat himself up… even after I was married. “Saving face” does not apply to kids, you’re treated as a 5 year old in front of your parents, always! I battled (argued) hard on this with both Mom and Dad 🙄
“Yes, very true. Which is why this has been so demoralizing. His words were great; his actions not so much.”
That’s so unfortunate!
[“Did you feel he’d run over you before opening the door, or just realized afterwards?”
After]
that’s a terrible feeling!
“You mean before I opened the door? No. I didn’t expect the disclosure. But …. I knew my intentions weren’t friendship. I knew I was into him. So that was my point about stopping it at the glimmer. I could have done that. I didn’t need to poke the bear.”
Yeah, leave the bear alone!
“Could you just open the door ajar?”
That what I told myself I was doing. I was lying to myself. He said in large part what I wanted to hear, but the door is now wide open. Would I have been disappointed if he’d just kept the door ajar? Yes. And there’s the conflict again.”
I think I would feel disappointed, too, if only opening ajar. Either zero or total, not doing “half”s. But it’s hard when another person is involved, you only have 50% of control.
[“I personally think that some forms of creativity could bring us a strong sense of being alive.”
True. But it’s still not quite the same.]
I know it’s NOT the same, but when one part is missing, we have to concentrate on the another part of life; otherwise, we’d feel bored or even empty….
“I think the fear is part of the fun. 🙂”
Never for me for sure!
“I just feel like I’m in control most of the time; kinda of exciting to lose it.”
I don’t like this kind of excitement — largely losing my control. I hate the feelings of being “lost” in mental or spiritual ways. I want to feel at ease, safe, free to act, and fulfilled…
“So I tested the waters. To use Dr. L’s chart. And now I’m in, if not total mental capture, a big chunk of mental capture.
I didn’t have to test the waters.”
Next time, If a guy is unavailable, I’m not going to test water at all.
“What were you expecting at the time?”
Chit chat. Jokes.”
that’s not much, right?
[“What were you wishing he would (not) do if your door was open?”
I’m not sure what you’re asking because you put “not” in the sentence.]
that means what you were wishing he would do, and what you were wishing he would not do, once your door was open.
” Why was his disclosure so bad?”
Because it triggered me”
Triggered me in what ways? your old pains? your unresolved “stuff”? I’m not quite clear here.
“But do you have a better sense now of ways to notice your impact on other people? To be more compassionate?”
Much better. In the past, I was too insecure to believe that I (or my behaviors) could have any impact on anyone else, I was / am nobody, just like talking, sharing, discussing and connecting with others about our thoughts, beliefs, hobbies, etc.. and make friends with like-minded men and women…
To better sense others is highly challenging, because we don’t know what’s going on in their head most of the time (some also has a busy mind). If their words are trusted, one could guess/assess more accurately; if one is unable to articulate oneself well (like myself) and there is lack of deep conversations, then assumptions, misinterpretations, and misperceptions are all doomed to occur… like we have seen in these coffeehouses.
To be more compassionate? Brought up in a Buddhistic tradition, I naturally have a bit more compassion while more easily spotting a root of different kinds of human sufferings. However, unlike good Christians, some shy Buddhists might not show their compassion easily or more personably. I know how compassionate I could genuinely feel inside…
But I think you’re asking me to grow/show/express more compassion to others who might be in need, right? I will certainly make a note of it.
Snow,
“I didn’t have much such experiences. I was married from middle 20s to early 30s. But even after the divorce, I was never a bar goer and didn’t like bar hoppers, either, they intimidated me even when I was with a group of friends.”
We used to hit the bars. That was a long time ago. But pretty much once you get into your early 30s, the sense that anything could happen is over.
“Much less so in COO, I witnessed a lot. Most men in courtship gave a lot more to girls, not the other way around. In a macho culture, girls are not supposed to chase.”
I’m not sure what you mean. He wasn’t courting or chasing me. He just wanted the attention.
“I was a bit sarcastic when I used the word “diabolical”. I haven’t glimmered at any “diabolical” guys, but 2 or 3 narcs (just with strong traits)”
Yes, I’d say he was narcissistic.
“Totally agree! Like Adam’s clip shows, 3 seconds is plenty for us women to feel whether a strong attraction is there. Compatibility is for later to grow together more.”
So I think we’re talking about two different things. Knowing you’re attracted right away is chemistry. That’s separate from compatibility. IMO. Chemistry does not predict there will be compatibility.
Compatibility is “clicking” with the person as a person. Enjoying their company, having good conversations, shared interests, shared goals. Can you grow compatibility? To an extent. But I think you have to have a base level of compatibility in the beginning. I don’t think it’s something you can manufacture.
Now, some people think chemistry can grow. You can get to know someone and really like them … and then become attracted.
“I always have 2-3 colleague/friends no matter where I worked.”
Me, too. I was just using work as an example. I’d like to get along with everyone. But not everyone has to like me.
“In my eyes, that would cause big problems in a serious relationship. It’s unwise to avoid important conversations and dialogues, so as to prevent future breakups.”
I kind of disagree. From an outside observer’s perspective, not talking about things keeps the relationship going. I’m sometimes surprised what married people don’t talk about. But maybe that’s the key. 🙂
“I have to take care of my narc Mom until she exists the world.”
But can you limit your time with her?
“But he had a habit that in front of others, he’d put me down (one of COO stupid cultural behaviors) and gloat himself up… even after I was married.”
You mean try to show you up, to prove that you knew less than he did in front of others?
[“Yes, very true. Which is why this has been so demoralizing. His words were great; his actions not so much.”]
“That’s so unfortunate!”
I’m starting to think it’s how the plot always plays out. At least with an LO. It usually won’t work out how you hoped.
“Yeah, leave the bear alone!”
Yes, mam. Message received. 🙂 I’ve been good. What other choice to do I have? As is usual in these situations, the LO holds all the power. I can’t force him to show up or give a crap.
“I think I would feel disappointed, too, if only opening ajar. Either zero or total, not doing “half”s”
Yes, but that’s NEVER want THEY want! They seem to be totally happy with getting half and walking away.
“I don’t like this kind of excitement — largely losing my control. I hate the feelings of being “lost” in mental or spiritual ways. I want to feel at ease, safe, free to act, and fulfilled…”
I don’t want to feel out of control all the time. But every now and then. I get bored with too much appropriateness.
“Next time, If a guy is unavailable, I’m not going to test water at all.”
That is the wisest choice! 🙂
[“What were you expecting at the time?”
Chit chat. Jokes.”]
“that’s not much, right?”
No, it’s not.
“that means what you were wishing he would do, ”
I think it’s pretty obvious what I wished he would do. 🙂
“and what you were wishing he would not do, once your door was open.”
Say a bunch of crap to me and act like he was going to do what I was hoping he’d do … and then not do it.
“Triggered me in what ways? your old pains? your unresolved “stuff”?”
Yes. My old patterns with men. Crap from my childhood.
“In the past, I was too insecure to believe that I (or my behaviors) could have any impact on anyone else … ”
So you didn’t believe your behavior had an impact on … friends, guys you dated, your former husband, family?
“To better sense others is highly challenging, because we don’t know what’s going on in their head most of the time (some also has a busy mind).”
True
” If their words are trusted, one could guess/assess more accurately; if one is unable to articulate oneself well (like myself) and there is lack of deep conversations, then assumptions, misinterpretations, and misperceptions are all doomed to occur… like we have seen in these coffeehouses.”
All true. And it’s even harder in the coffeehouses because tone and meaning can be misinterpreted. At least face-to-face we can see facial expressions, hear tone, inflection, etc.
“However, unlike good Christians, some shy Buddhists might not show their compassion easily or more personably. I know how compassionate I could genuinely feel inside…”
So you struggle to demonstrate it?
“But I think you’re asking me to grow/show/express more compassion to others who might be in need, right? I will certainly make a note of it.”
No. I was more saying … sometimes we don’t even know what we need to work on. Until we figure it out. So now that you know …
can you work on ways to show it more (if that’s what you want to do)?
Marcia,
[“Much less so in COO, I witnessed a lot. Most men in courtship gave a lot more to girls, not the other way around. In a macho culture, girls are not supposed to chase.”
I’m not sure what you mean. He wasn’t courting or chasing me. He just wanted the attention.]
Hmmm…. I’m not sure if we are talking about the same matter here, correct me if I’m wrong. I meant in COO macho culture, one would probably see more female LOs, and more men chase them. But here I get a sense there are about equal numbers of LOs on both sides. To be honest, I was surprised to see how “brave” and eager limerent women are behind male LO’s heels. I’m the Great Wall away behind you, Sis 😀
“So I think we’re talking about two different things. Knowing you’re attracted right away is chemistry. That’s separate from compatibility. IMO. Chemistry does not predict there will be compatibility.”
Yes. We talked about this before, I think degree 5 or 6 in Glimmer and 6 or 7 in compatibility are needed to start a relationship, and Glimmer has to be ahead of the latter.
“Compatibility is “clicking” with the person as a person. Enjoying their company, having good conversations, shared interests, shared goals. Can you grow compatibility? To an extent. “
Yes, to an extend. But there are extraordinary, very rare situations when both sides are truly willing to teach and learn from each other, and constantly renew/evolve themselves — Aristotle friendship. I imagine, a deep LOVE — the love to GIVE (not pinning to receive validation), is a foundation for such a relationship.
“But I think you have to have a base level of compatibility in the beginning. I don’t think it’s something you can manufacture.””
Of course, the two sides have to match in willingness and capability to tango. Mutual Glimmer at a similar degree is required.
“Now, some people think chemistry can grow. You can get to know someone and really like them … and then become attracted.”
Never happened in me. Tried it in LE5 for more than a decade but could not make it work (with the same amount of compatibility on paper. )
“I kind of disagree. From an outside observer’s perspective, not talking about things keeps the relationship going. I’m sometimes surprised what married people don’t talk about. But maybe that’s the key. 🙂”
It’s interesting to think of it: in COO, people in general don’t express or know how to express emotions, so not much serious talks between couples; they always show their love/caring through actions, small deeds (you can see such phenomena in majority of COO movies). They see and sense emotions (both positive and negative), but not to talk about them directly. Breakup rates are the way lower than the West.
In the West, most of breakups of relationship I know of were due to lack of conversations in sincerity and depth. (I listened to some truthful stories). And some marriages were saved after the couple laid their issues on the table. Myself would still go after honest, constructive dialogue approach, at least for a substantial, sustainable friendship — one arm of a relationship.
“I have to take care of my narc Mom until she exists the world.”
“But can you limit your time with her?”
Yes. But as I told LaR, after I’m recovered so much from my cptsd in just one year, I get along with her much better nowadays. Her narc ways do not bother me much nowadays, and my ease makes her relax more, as well. That’s a successful sign of my Stoic practice.
“You mean try to show you up, to prove that you knew less than he did in front of others?”
Yes. But he’d praise or brag about me behind my back (many told me, which shocked me)! I protested again and again, asking him not to put me down habitually in front of others (I had my life-time insecurity due to Mom). Finally he heard me, and stopped. Dad’s mind was amazingly flexible to change/adopt the most of the time, and his heart was really big to GIVE agape love and forgive.
[I’m starting to think it’s how the plot always plays out. At least with an LO. It usually won’t work out how you hoped.}
That’s why it’s wise/Stoic not to hope, although it’s almost impossible to do. From Stoic angle, one should keep none hope, but strive for 100% for your aim. As I told you, in the 7th year of my latest LE, I gave up any hope, but just gave anything I could to make the interaction amicable, turning the unrequited LE into an unrequited love, because the doomsday was set.
“I’ve been good. What other choice to do I have? As is usual in these situations, the LO holds all the power. I can’t force him to show up or give a crap.”
You’ve been saying in all your messages that we have choices, so why let LO “hold all the power”, even if he’s available? Now, can we ask a question here, “WHY does LO hold all the power?
Have you ever read Eric Fromm’s book “Art of Love”? I read it a long time ago and really liked its “radical” view on LOVE and being loved. I know you don’t open any video clips, but I attach one (based on the book) here for anyone else who is interested —
https://youtu.be/te4Q5KteKi8?feature=shared — You Don’t Want Love — You Are Addicted to Feeling Validated.
It talks about the connection between our childhood conditional “love”/traumas to this almost insatiable desire to feel validated during our adulthood. I think it’s very relevant to my past LE cases. (maybe yours?)
[“I think I would feel disappointed, too, if only opening ajar. Either zero or total, not doing “half”s”
Yes, but that’s NEVER what THEY want! They seem to be totally happy with getting half and walking away.]
I meant doing things whole-heartedly in matters that do not rely on others, like earning a degree, or studying a foreign language.
In a relation, 50% is totally out of our “control”, you have a choice to walk away from those “half-way givers”, or stay in but NOT to EXPECT to get what you WANT from the other side, while trying to get them. The desire or attempt is human and natural, but EXPECTATIONS bring us pains.
“I don’t want to feel out of control all the time. But every now and then. I get bored with too much appropriateness.”
I can totally resonate with your sense of boredom! But I still do not want to lose my control to another person, only to a situation, such as an unplanned trip, or a last minute decision to go out with a friend/date/bf. That’s my P working.
[“and what you were wishing he would not do, once your door was open.”
Say a bunch of crap to me and act like he was going to do what I was hoping he’d do … and then not do it.]
What if you already prepared for such a scenario in advance, or for the worst that could possibly happen? [Stoic practice] Do you think you’d still feel so disappointed or hurt?
[“Triggered me in what ways? your old pains? your unresolved “stuff”?”
Yes. My old patterns with men. Crap from my childhood.]
Oh, that’s hurtful. I think this is a focus to work with your therapist. I did some with my disappointing therapists, and the rest with myself during LE, through my monologues to an unprofessional but patient, accepting ear, which worked….
“So you didn’t believe your behavior had an impact on … friends, guys you dated, your former husband, family?”
Most time NOT, even when my loving xSO relied on me so much, emotionally, mentally, even a bit physically. I felt like a 2nd mother to him, instead of an equal partner. Then, I had to run away…
Due to negligence and abuse of Mom, I rarely felt I meant or amount to anything to anyone else, especially my inside (except with LO1), while I cared little or ran away from validation to my outside (unfulfilling or unsafe or repulsive).
“All true. And it’s even harder in the coffeehouses because tone and meaning can be misinterpreted. At least face-to-face we can see facial expressions, hear tone, inflection, etc.”
Precisely! Just look at you and LaR, who come from similar culture with the same mother tongue, you two still need to check back and forth to make sure each question or statement is understood for what it was meant . With my vastly different cultural and personal background, perhaps 50%+ percent of what was meant by a poster was understood by me for something else, and vice vista 😀 If there are no follow-up inquires and clarification, then misinterpretation and misperception are “nailed on coffin”.
“So you struggle to demonstrate it?”
Oh, very much so! For reasons, sympathy (or pity) for others is considered/seen as condescending in COO, where Wisdom and STRENGTH are highly praised and pursued nations wide! Some may shout at you if you give them “cheap” verbal compassion/sympathy, “who needs your pity!… I can handle it!… leave me alone… ” So kids are taught to hide their vulnerabilities and tears, so as not to be mocked and pitied — save one’s own face!
Growing up in such a molding, one automatically worries that a direct expression of compassion or sympathy would be taken, or interpreted as looking down upon other’s inner strength. Or “I’m already vulnerable enough, why would anyone need my sympathy?”
If one wants to give sympathy or compassion, like affection or love, they show it in concrete actions and small deeds — help them with what they need to do, e.g. cook a meal for them, bring them some delicious food, go to hospital with them, attend a funeral of your family members, even if they don’t know them personally, or simple sit with them in silence…. Again, action speak louder than words.
So I often held a calm face in front of them, but shed sorrowful tears (moisture eyes) for them behind their back; sometimes such a sadness choked me, which no one knew unless I confessed to someone else (not the unfortunate ones). I was often surprised to read so many direct, sympathetic words in posts; I thought it must be a Christian thing to do.
[“No. I was more saying … sometimes we don’t even know what we need to work on. Until we figure it out. So now that you know …
can you work on ways to show it more (if that’s what you want to do)?]
I’d like to try for sure, although still find it quite uncomfortable due to my old, habitual mentality. Sometimes I tried it upon hearing someone’s bad new, but felt my few words were very dry and mechanical, despite I pictured and felt much more sorrows for the sad situation and people in it.
I always thought empathy is more needed than sympathy; the former is the way harder to give, because I/we often don’t know other side well enough to empathize with their thoughts or emotions, expressed or “hidden”, especially when there is not enough direct communications but a lot of assumptions.
I am going to retire to the divan and watch Sin City with a cocktail. Realizing the character Marv is why I talk like I do.
https://youtu.be/MnMZeDmfgmU?si=zAsfYyoXyxnNuqCr
“I am going to retire to the divan and watch Sin City with a cocktail.”
Enjoy your movie, Sweet Cheeks. 🙂
Divan, Davenport, what’s the difference? Lol..
Would anybody care if I told you I fell and hit my head on the credenza??
Then there’s this song I like …
“and she reaches for the light on the bureau”
Some words just get unused or society changes it’s meaning. Gonna be honest, always associated the word bureau with politics and government, not furniture.
Stay Awhile — The Bells
https://youtu.be/unGzbrfwlsQ?si=G_ZQ5lgiTFKP282q
🎩 🍻 ,
What lovely, morning “Bells” with such sweet lyrics! 🫂 .
I guess “I’m gonna stay for awhile”… 😊
🎩 🍻 ,
What lovely, morning “Bells” with such sweet lyrics! 🫂 .
“I guess I’m gonna stay with you awhile”… 😊
@Adam,
I should send that clip to LF. I’m sure she’s thought about beating me like that a few times..
Even though I probably need it..
🤣🤣
MJ
Thank my parent’s genetics I didn’t turn out to be Marv. Because if I had the brawn to back my attitude …. well let’s just say my other favorite line of Marv’s is “It really gets my goat up when guys rough up dames.”
Sorry Miss Marcia, I know I am terribly old fashioned. My behavior is totally lost to most women. Like when she was flabbergasted at me walking her out to her truck with my umbrella when it was raining one day.
Adam,
“Sorry Miss Marcia, I know I am terribly old fashioned. ”
All I could hear was Outkast’s “I’m sorry Miss Jackson, I am FOR REAL …: ” 🙂
“My behavior is totally lost to most women. Like when she was flabbergasted at me walking her out to her truck with my umbrella when it was raining one day.”
I think that’s lovely. Maybe I’m a little old fashioned, too. 🙂
Miss Marcia listens to Outkast? One of my favorite rap duos growing up? Color me surprised.
I told her “Why do you think I have it my truck? I do the same for my wife and any woman riding with me.” I guess a large part of it is my father taught me but also led by example with my mother and the woman at church. So walking a woman to her vehicle when it’s raining is just something a man should do.
Monsieur Adam,
“Miss Marcia listens to Outkast? One of my favorite rap duos growing up? Color me surprised.”
I’m very hip. Earlier today I was listening to Lizzo. “I don’t need him I need a drink … ” 🙂
“I guess a large part of it is my father taught me but also led by example with my mother and the woman at church. So walking a woman to her vehicle when it’s raining is just something a man should do.”
You have what I call home trainin’. Which is a good thing. 🙂
My girlfriend are is back. Our cat is gonna be mad at me for the rest of the night. :-/
https://imgur.com/a/jSuh39W
https://imgur.com/a/kB3cwaS
And I bet you engaged in heavy petting, didn’t you? 😉
Yes I am sorry to say I indulged myself in the forbidden.
Never Admit Your Mistakes
Deborah Hauser
I text my yoga teacher: I think I need
to start medication. I meant
meditation, but the subconscious
knows best. I once wrote a whole poem
about the angel of penetration
rather than admit in my haste
I meant angle of penetration.
Either way, a virgin ascends.
I return a can of paint to the store
because I can’t manage any more
pain, I meant paint. I mean pain.
I keep going back for pain samples
I don’t need. I have gallons of different
shades stored in the basement. Enough
for a fresh coat every year. I don’t take
the medication. There’s nothing worse
than a dull coat of pain. I prefer it
bright and sharp
******
Never admit your mistake! Or shout to your Mirror, “It is all YOUR fault!”
One year anniversary of
the disclosure and heartache farewell
Not even a dull coat of pain left
It is all YOUR fault!
🐦🔥
Never admit your mistake!
Or just shout to your Mirror, “It is all YOUR fault!”
One year anniversary of
the disclosure and the heartache farewell
Now, not even a dull coat of pain is left
It is all YOUR fault!
🐦🔥
Foreign Hills
Witter Bynner
1881 –1968
You would not think that, lost so young
Here in this outer land,
I still should feel my spirit wrung
And still not understand . . .
Though Grenstone is the name they said,
And though I pack my load
And though my cap is on my head —
What do I care which road?
What does it matter where I go,
When all I do is roam
Far from a place I used to know,
From hills and streams of home?
And foreign waters only smart
The lips that they caress
And foreign hills but bruise the heart
With vanished happiness.
******
But the genie can’t go back in the bottle,
so continually climbs outlandish hills, and
splash exotic waters on my cheeks.
🐦🔥
Come One, Come All! Step Right Up! Welcome to the World of Wonders!
Ama Codjoe
The woman with two souls
and one body. The woman riding
a stampede of seahorses. The snake
princess who charms with sexy
gyrations. Body of a spider, head
of a girl. The girl tattooed with leaving.
The woman who contorts herself
into a pretzel. The woman who shape-shifts
in an effort to please. The mental marvel.
The woman who stands on a jutting rock
and does not throw herself
into the sea. The marvelous woman who
bleeds. The marvelous woman who never
conceives. The girl whose fantasies
chase her into the arms of a tree. The woman
without a ladder. The horned girl.
The three-breasted woman. The woman
with wings. The two-headed lady. The lady-
in-waiting. The hollow girl hollering.
The indestructible woman with a hard heart
of gold. The woman who charges
like a bull. The woman who dissolves into
salt. The woman who pours herself
into a mold. The woman who shapes
a meaningful life. The Queen
of Hearts. Crown of Medusa, udders
of a cow. Woman who birthed one
two-faced desire. Woman who can read
your mind. The woman who makes
her eyes grin so you know she is
smiling under her mask.
The woman tired of smiling.
The woman who sweeps the floor.
The invincible, see-through
woman. The ecstatic woman.
The compliant woman. Our Lady
Whose Hips Spin You Like a Top.
The mermaid whose tail splits
like a forked tongue. The slithering
blue woman. The roaring blues
woman. Daughter of water and fire.
She who dances gracefully.
*******
The genie is in Limerence!
I don’t read a lot of poetry because I get overwhelmed by all the imagery. But this one made me LOL!
🦇,
It’s even more *LOL* if “your mirror” 🪞 could walk and talk around… 😊
Synchronicity: Deborah Hauser’s lines just landed in my email this morning, on a significant day of mine… thus an inspiration to 🔔
❄️,
💙
🚜
💠💙 🕓 ❄️ ❓
💦 🌊 🔣 ❄️❓
🤲🙏 ☺️ 🧡 ❗️
❄️,
💙
🚜
Hello to any and all, esp those who have read any of my “journey” with this living nightmare.
Very brief background, married, age mid 60’s, LO is married mid 30’s. Started this about 7 or 8 months ago. LO and I work together, and take almost daily hour or longer lunch walks alone together. We are very good friends and enjoy our walks.
I have indeed told LO that I am basically addicted to her, and that I do love her as a friend.
My wife knows about LO, I have tried to explain Limerence to her, and she is TRYING to understand my need for LO’s presence, the the pain I suffer without getting my “fix” as she calls it.
Really, my wife is trying so hard to be patient with me. Even tho she has said she feels I aam Betraying her. I cannot say enough about my wife, I love her and feel much guilt because of all this.
We have discussed me going “cold turkey” / NC-ish with LO ( ie: NO more walks together ), last we spoke about it my wife said that she feels I am better mentally if I keep up with the walks… she has seen me suffer withdrawal symptoms from this, even just over a weekend.
I had thought I was managing this LE… in truth ( funny way to say this ) I was LEAKING this for everyone to see.
I have been Lying to myself and my wife… like any other addict….. I am ashamed of myself.
I fear losing my Wife, I fear my own weakness to LO… I cannot say no to her… wife says I am at LO’s beck and call, under her spell.
If I were younger… I would FEAR being unable to resist having this become a PA. I have said in the past here… that is NOT how I see LO, but…………… with LO, I am weak. At least I am spared THAT Demon.
This has all been… I will say it again… a NIGHTMARE. It all happened so gradually. First friend with LO, then FULL on LE.
And it all changes daily… how SO is with this, and how I am with LO ( every single interaction with her has its own life! )… even today, a walk alone together, had a lovely time, got an ice cream with her, did some shopping with her, almost an hour and 45 minutes with her…. its not enough. It is never enough.
And I was going to try to be Strong and say NO to a walk today…. until that is… she messaged me ” want to go for our daily walk at 12:30″ then I was not strong, and said yes, of course I want a walk…. weak weak weak
Oh my goodness, New_To_Limerence. That is a nightmare! An absolute nightmare! Good luck to all three of you.
Lovisa and Norma,
Thanks for your replies.
My wife has been amazing thought all this, I have FULLY disclosed to her. She is not happy, but is being very supportive!
And I feel I am getting better ( more lies ) esp with frequent time with LO on walks.
And I have hopes for the Counselling.
To NTL:
You’re going to a therapist? I hope it helps. I have had therapy, but not for limerence.
Miss Lovisa
Where have you been?
*go pouts in a corner without his favorite LwL person* 😔
It sounds awful! I can tell you from experience it’s best to go complete no contact (NC). Make it through the withdrawal. Yes, it gets worse at first, but stay strong, and then you’ll come out better the other side. You can do this. Do not indulge the addiction, it only makes it worse. Wishing you the best!
Hello Kassandra….
I cannot go NC… we work together.
Also, I know it would hurt my LO if I withdrew from being her friend. I do NOT wish to hurt her at all.
My wife and I had a good long talk yesterday… she has told me that she wants me to not suffer, and so I should keep on going for walks with my friend. She has seen me in “withdrawal” from not getting my time with LO. ( I thought I was controlling it…. more lies )
But… we both think I should start seeing some sort of counselling, if only to have someone to talk to about this.
To NTL:
I have no brilliant advice for you, I just want to acknowledge your comments. Your story is so interesting, and so relatable.
Thinking of you as I wrestle my own demons.
Dear Kat
I’ve replied to your post in Tom’s latest thread (I didn’t post it there in case he deleted it!).
I felt compelled to get in touch, because your story breaks my heart. You describe all of my LEs combined, different segments from each one. My dear friend csc and I are chronic Limerents, and I’m fairly sure that she will echo that she gets everything you have been and are going through. As I do.
My request to you is that you talk to us. I see a lady here who is clearly struggling, and I want to help- if I can.
A few days ago I mentioned to csc and another great friend here, LaR that we are in a kind of rehab. We’re all at different stages, but I promise you Kat, we have all been where you are.
I’m not sure from your post if this is your first LE, although I get the feeling that it might not be.
Forgive me if I’m being over familiar. I’ve only been here a couple of months and it may be that you’ve been here for ages, and we’ve just never “met”.
I hope that we get to chat.
Until then please take care. I am thinking of you.
Justmeandmyobsessions (Jmmo)
Dame Marcia,
I’m starting again down the bottom as the scrolling has beaten me.
[“Co-working definitely adds many layers, but in this case it has kind of also helped keep the ‘safety’ of the situation.”
I’m not sure what you mean.]
I mean – there have been feelings on my side and they may have been reciprocal. I’m not going to leave or cheat on my SO. So there was/is no benefit, to LO or me, of the feelings getting disclosed. The fact we work together is extra protection against any such disclosure being made. I mean, who wants to face the awkwardness of a disclosed but not acted upon LE every day at work??
“Now I’m slithering back to my “gray flannel life.” (To quote the song “Lady Marmalade.”)”
Do you find there are no possible ways to meet available men in the age range you’d consider? Or is it that they do they not glimmer to you if they’re ‘too available’?
“Some of my previous LOs actually showed up. (And I think you know what I mean by “showed up.”)
I might know what you mean but don’t want to assume. If you want me to know, can you make it a bit clearer? I’d like to delve a bit deeper on that comment of yours but not until I am sure I understand.
Dame Marcia to LaR,
“So there was/is no benefit, to LO or me, of the feelings getting disclosed. ”
Yeah, I’m starting to see this is the best way to handle things.
“Do you find there are no possible ways to meet available men in the age range you’d consider?
I have been getting out to meetups lately. Of those, I had one guy message me, but I’m not interested. A couple others I would have liked to hear from; I didn’t. I recently started online dating. It’s …well … been some messaging back and forth on the site. Not sure it’s going to go anywhere. I’m messaging 4 guys now.
And, no, no one has “glimmered” at me. It’s very, very hard to tell much from a one-dimensional image. I would need to meet them in person to really know. If the pictures aren’t awful and I read their profile and think we may have something in common or I like something they said, I’ll like their like. (Sounds like we’re in 3rd grade. :)) But, yes, that’s the standard I’m using. It feels like taupe paint.
“Or is it that they do they not glimmer to you if they’re ‘too available’?”
#RUDE 🙂
“I might know what you mean but don’t want to assume. If you want me to know, can you make it a bit clearer? I’d like to delve a bit deeper on that comment of yours but not until I am sure I understand.”
Ok. I’ll come out and say it. I had sex with them. Three LOs. One was married; the other 2 were single. And there have been a few other marrieds in there (non-LOs). Although it’s been a million years.
So that’s my thinking … not all of the partnered guys said no. Not all of them toyed with me.
And then there’s the other thought: How many more of these am I going to get ? How many more is the Universe going to line up for me … these level 10 attractions where the person is also attracted?
Dame Marcia,
“Yeah, I’m starting to see this is the best way to handle things.”
It’s still not ideal. It leaves the biggest elephant in the room. But I weighed it up, time and again, and couldn’t see any better option.
“It’s very, very hard to tell much from a one-dimensional image.”
Yeah, I agree. Images alone can’t predict glimmers. Glimmers are more other-wordly than that.
I only ever had dates with 3 girls from apps (one of them is the one who ended it after my ‘revelations’ I mentioned to you). But a guy I know who used dating apps heavily (15 years ago when it was all easier and we were younger) said he’d usually have to date 3 different women to find one who he wanted a second date with, and date about 5 women to find himself ‘showing up’ with one of them.
I guess you can’t make an omelette if you don’t buy eggs, so might not be any harm in trying the odd date out with some of the guys you’re chatting to?
“It feels like taupe paint.”
I get you. I’d struggle now if I had to start dating again. I can cultivate glimmers when I don’t want to (see my two most recent LEs). But I can’t force them.
“#RUDE 🙂”
For some people – not saying it applies to you – the thrill of a difficult chase is the most intoxicating bit 😉
“So that’s my thinking … not all of the partnered guys said no. Not all of them toyed with me.”
I think I understand what you’re saying. If the guy is partnered and not going to cheat on his partner, he should just *stay well away*? Not encourage you to believe something might happen (eg by flirting) if he has no intention of it happening?
That all sounds sensible and easy on paper. But speaking as the partnered one in an LE, even though I was the limerent, the LO sometimes also did things that felt like ‘encouragement’ (it felt like she was encouraging an EA although not a PA).
I am not saying at all that you’ve done the same. I am trying to make a more general point that the LO as well as the limerent has to watch their behaviour in the situation. My LO has become much better at being watchful since the point where she understood (I think, anyway) what was going on with my feelings for her.
Dame Marcia to Sir LaR,
“It leaves the biggest elephant in the room. ”
So … is that an elephant that you see or both of you see? I mention this based on my discussions with LO-lite. I wasn’t completely off in what he was thinking but pretty off. And he was off in terms of what I was thinking.
“Images alone can’t predict glimmers. Glimmers are more other-wordly than that.”
Yes, and sometimes you glimmer for someone you’d never imagine. Someone you could dismiss if you just saw a picture versus met them in person.
“But a guy I know who used dating apps heavily (15 years ago when it was all easier and we were younger) said he’d usually have to date 3 different women to find one who he wanted a second date with, and date about 5 women to find himself ‘showing up’ with one of them.”
Do you mean “showing up” in terms of being interested enough to pursue something?
“so might not be any harm in trying the odd date out with some of the guys you’re chatting to?”
Yes, I’m doing that. One actually asked me out (versus just messaging) and we’re meeting up this week. We have a decent amount in common so at the very least we’ll have a good conversation.
“I get you. I’d struggle now if I had to start dating again. I can cultivate glimmers when I don’t want to (see my two most recent LEs). But I can’t force them.”
Yes. Chemistry is very elusive and mysterious.
“For some people – not saying it applies to you – the thrill of a difficult chase is the most intoxicating bit 😉”
Well, it must have applied to me on some level, given my history, but with this most recent one, I did a little bit, maybe even a touch more than I would have liked, but I didn’t chase him. I’m not going to do that anymore. I’ll do my part, but I’m not falling into the trap of “reminding someone I’m alive” or planting myself in places to see them, etc. It’s too much work.
“If the guy is partnered and not going to cheat on his partner, he should just *stay well away*?”
Yes. Don’t get on the scale if you ain’t got the weight. 🙂
“Not encourage you to believe something might happen (eg by flirting) if he has no intention of it happening?”
Well, flirting definitely encourages the limerent because you start to wonder … is this person into me? But I actually meant taking it a step further … maybe doing a little bit physically (not full consummation but some stuff) or making plans to meet up and there’s at least an implication that sex is a possibility.
“(it felt like she was encouraging an EA although not a PA).”
So how would an EA be different than the friendship you already had? How do you know she was encouraging an EA but not a PA?
“I am not saying at all that you’ve done the same. I am trying to make a more general point that the LO as well as the limerent has to watch their behaviour in the situation. ”
I agree. I opened the door a little with LO-lite. He picked up on it. I wasn’t expecting him to say what he said, but I think I did enough that he felt he could ?
Marcia 😎 🍫 & LaR 🚜,
Please allow me to cast my “vote” here based on my chat with 🚜 here a few months ago, when Hu 🍫 was not introduced yet —
“So … is that an elephant that you see or both of you see?”
In my 👁️ (sense) based on our chats, the both sides know the 🐘 in the room, whatever name you give this pink 🌸 🐘 — EA or LE flavored platonic friends.
However, 🚜 does not know whether his MFF sees the 🌸 🐘. At one point, he was dying to know and gone “nuts” to disclose… (🚜: I’m pulling your legs… 🤭 )
“LE flavored platonic friends.”
Can we settle on this term and finally stop the debate on what to call it?!
And damn that 🌸 🐘! How could its presence in the room be so intoxicating and so infuriating at the same time.
Dame Marcia – Snow’s 👁 answer on my behalf about who could see the elephant is accurate as far as we can tell. I can’t know for sure as I never disclosed.
(I will get back to your other points). When Snow uses MFF (mentally fond/fondled friend) to me, it refers to my most recent LO
Snow,
“So … is that an elephant that you see or both of you see?”
“In my 👁️ (sense) based on our chats, the both sides know the 🐘 in the room, whatever name you give this pink 🌸 🐘 — EA or LE flavored platonic friends.
However, 🚜 does not know whether his MFF sees the 🌸 🐘. At one point, he was dying to know and gone “nuts” to disclose… (🚜: I’m pulling your legs… 🤭 )”
I’m slow. 🙂 Can you please type this out in words? I can’t decipher it.
I think that, yes, in some cases, the LO knows about the elephant in the room. But in some cases, I’d say they don’t. Or aren’t feeling it themselves. I’ve certainly been attracted to people who weren’t attracted back. I can only speak from my personal experience, but LO-lite did not know. He confirmed that. My most recent LO … yeah, he knew. Even before disclosure, I’m sure he knew. It was just obvious. He was obvious; I was obvious.
Trucker,
OMG these symbols! 🙂
“When Snow uses MFF (mentally fond/fondled friend) to me, it refers to my most recent LO”
I did wonder what that meant. 🙂 But has the friend really been fondled? 🙂
Marcia,
As a limerent, who has not Mentally Fondled our LO “Friend”? Perhaps only too much, the way too much❗️
like Mila, LaR (🚜) and his MFF/LO, had 10 years pre-LE friendship, which made his LO especially hard and delicate to walk away (in addition to their shared workplace). Our INFP’s friends can’t be moved/switched to our mental “LO-file”, but LaR’s mind could and did involuntarily….
So we are all left with a question here: does she know the pink elephant — LE flavored “platonic” (physical) friendship, in the room?? Without a disclosure from either side, we may NEVER know.
******
In my intuitive eyes (👁️) based on our chats, the both sides know the elephant in the room, whatever name you give this pink elephant (🌸 🐘) — EA or LE flavored platonic friendship.
However, LaR (🚜 )does not know whether his MFF/LO sees the pink elephant. At one point, he was dying to know and gone “nuts” to disclose… (LaR (🚜): I’m pulling your legs… 🤭 )
***
I added the color, Pink🌸, to “LE elephant” in the room. 😊
LaR 🚜 & Marcia 😎🍫,
“LE flavored platonic friends.”
Can we settle on this term and finally stop the debate on what to call it?!
I think in our recent cases , the “friendship” is totally physically platonic. So now, the question is: whether you can call it a platonic friendship when LE affection is deeply involved? Is it still emotionally or mentally platonic?
I incline to say, it is NOT. So can we call it, “LE flavored friendship”? (“platonic” causes confusion) or “Romantic friendship”? (but “romantic” does not show the intensity of limerence, or the altered mental state). So shall we call it: LFF — Limerence Flavored Friendship? 😃
“And damn that 🌸 🐘! How could its presence in the room be so intoxicating and so infuriating at the same time.”
Because it affects us at a neural level for intoxicating; and at a mental level for infuriating. Your subconscious is delighted by it, but your conscious mind wants to get rid of it, but unable. The forces are battling with each other.
That’s just my little understanding through my experience. I can see so much more clearly now (after my LE is totally gone) what was happening in my brain stuck in my latest LE. 🙃
Dame Marcia,
“So … is that an elephant that you see or both of you see?”
See discussion in post with Snow. My instinct says she was aware of the elephant’s presence, but it is a guess without any known answers.
About ‘fondling’ – only in my head, never in reality – that’s why ‘Mentally fondled’
“I wasn’t completely off in what he was thinking but pretty off. And he was off in terms of what I was thinking.”
What did he believe that you were thinking?
Do you think each of you now has a truthful view of what the other was thinking?
“Do you mean “showing up” in terms of being interested enough to pursue something?”
No, I meant showing up in the way that you meant it yesterday (sex).
“One actually asked me out (versus just messaging) and we’re meeting up this week. We have a decent amount in common so at the very least we’ll have a good conversation.”
That dounds good 🙂. My experience with the apps is veru limited but when I tried it, it was always important to me too, to establish first that I’d at least have a decent time and conversation. Like we said, anything beyond that it a bonus (chemistry can’t be determined on an app). Of the three I met from apps, two went to second dates or more but none further than four dates.
“but I didn’t chase him. I’m not going to do that anymore.”
So he chased a bit but then failed to follow through?
“flirting definitely encourages the limerent”
MFF flirted with me, but maybe not with intent. She has a naturally extraverted flirty way, but at one point she really increased it in my direction. I will give her benefit of the doubt that at that point, I wasn’t probably leaking my limerence yet. She might just have seen it as friends bantering.
“…But I actually meant taking it a step further … [physical stuff]”
Neither MFF or I have been guilty of that. I tiptoe around it.
“or making plans to meet up”
That was easy as we already had a very established friendship with patterns of meeting up – it was not hard to increase the amount without it seeming weird. And she led that dance, always suggesting extra meeting up – I said yes to that a lot for a spell, but I never led it.
“So how would an EA be different than the friendship you already had?”
Once she had moved into my ‘lim-file’ (two years ago now), no different really. My claim here on LwL was only ever that it was platonic for ten years *before* that. Once limerence came to town, the things that made it more like an EA were the amount of time we gave each other and the increased emotional intimacy / sharing within our discussions.
“How do you know she was encouraging an EA but not a PA?”
She never once hinted at a PA.
“but I think I did enough that he felt he could ?”
Sounds feasible. I think the more a man perceives an opening (please don’t pick up on the double meaning 😆), the more bold he will become – generally speaking. But I can’t explain easily why he’d disclose if he had no plan to act.
“Because it affects us at a neural level for intoxicating; and at a mental level for infuriating. Your subconscious is delighted by it, but your conscious mind wants to get rid of it, but unable. The forces are battling with each other.”
That is beautifully put indeed, Snow.
https://youtu.be/b0cAWgTPiwM?feature=shared
👆 Johnny Nash (1972)
“I can see clearly now (the rain has gone)”
LAR
(Is it you? Cannot keep up with the emojis)
thst song was/is my go-to post-limerence song since LE1! Love it.
Hey Mila,
Yeah it’s me!
That’s very clear-headed of you to listen to that song.
One day we should compare limerence playlists 😆 I still can’t dislike some of the songs on mine.
I just read your long post with great interest and will reply eventually. I am being kept busy by the INFP sisters, Snow and Marcia, here.
Sounds like an interesting spell for you…
Hi LaR,
I always had these moments of relief after I finally got out of an LE (or the worst of it), that outlook on a clear rainwashed blue sky after all that tumultuous and dark stuff, feeling myself and free again. The song describes that feeling perfectly for me.
Snow,
“like Mila, LaR (🚜) and his MFF/LO, had 10 years pre-LE friendship, which made his LO especially hard and delicate to walk away (in addition to their shared workplace). Our INFP’s friends can’t be moved/switched to our mental “LO-file”, but LaR’s mind could and did involuntarily….”
True. I don’t believe I’ve ever become limerent or even really interested in someone years into knowing them.
“So we are all left with a question here: does she know the pink elephant — LE flavored “platonic” (physical) friendship, in the room?? Without a disclosure from either side, we may NEVER know.”
That was my point. You can’t really know for certain without disclosure.
“Can we settle on this term and finally stop the debate on what to call it?!”
I’m not arguing with you. 🙂
[I think in our recent cases , the “friendship” is totally physically platonic. So now, the question is: whether you can call it a platonic friendship when LE affection is deeply involved? Is it still emotionally or mentally platonic?
I incline to say, it is NOT. So can we call it, “LE flavored friendship”? (“platonic” causes confusion) or “Romantic friendship”? (but “romantic” does not show the intensity of limerence, or the altered mental state). So shall we call it: LFF — Limerence Flavored Friendship? 😃]
I agree. It’s not strictly platonic.
LaR
“So … is that an elephant that you see or both of you see?”
See discussion in post with Snow. My instinct says she was aware of the elephant’s presence, but it is a guess without any known answers.”
She very well may have been, but unless you confirm, it’s really impossible to say.
“What did he believe that you were thinking?”
That I wasn’t interested.
“Do you think each of you now has a truthful view of what the other was thinking?”
Most definitely.
“(chemistry can’t be determined on an app). ”
Totally agree.
“Of the three I met from apps, two went to second dates or more but none further than four dates.”
That’s kind of demoralizing.
“So he chased a bit but then failed to follow through?”
Well … I’ve been a little withholding. He showed up, and it did a number on me. He was not the person I thought he was, and I was a mess for several days. I’m climbing out of it, but it’s not something I want to repeat. I’m really starting to think I’m not wired for casual sex, which he clearly thought it was. I wish I could be more like him. I envy him.
“She might just have seen it as friends bantering.”
Was it teasing?
“That was easy as we already had a very established friendship with patterns of meeting up”
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. I meant meet up for sex.
“And she led that dance, always suggesting extra meeting up – I said yes to that a lot for a spell, but I never led it.”
That would have been confusing. If she’s wanting to spend more time together.
“Once limerence came to town, the things that made it more like an EA were the amount of time we gave each other and the increased emotional intimacy / sharing within our discussions.”
It sounds like the friendship did change. It shifted to something more intimate.
Marcia,
“He showed up, and it did a number on me.”
What, since you told us he didn’t show up a few days ago? Or you mean just that you weren’t ready to tell us at that point? I’m sorry to hear it did a number on you. Hope you’ll continue to climb out slowly.
“I’m really starting to think I’m not wired for casual sex, which he clearly thought it was. I wish I could be more like him. I envy him.”
I’ve had so little casual sex (not wired for it – with a few exceptions, I need the emotional investment to enjoy sex). You say you envy him, but I can’t understand how people carry the burden, if they have sex behind an SO’s back (he has SO, right?). I could never look my SO in the eye again if I was hooking up with other women. He should surely get out of his relationship if he wants casual?
“Was it teasing?”
Yes, it sometimes involved teasing, still does. But not of a sexual nature – just teasing my character, and I do it to her too. I don’t read loads into it now (I very much did at one time) as the more I know her, the more I know that teasing is just her natural style when she’s comfortable with a person.
“It sounds like the friendship did change. It shifted to something more intimate.”
It did. She initiated most of the change. but I let her – I liked it and I ran with it.
And I grant you it could sound weird me saying that I could sit with that happening, in the same breath as saying I couldn’t sit with casual sex/PA. I think a lot of that is to do with where my own and my SO’s boundaries are. She would never tolerate a PA, and yet knows I have been quite invested in being close friends with LO. She hasn’t ever tried to stop it, but I never told her about the limerence side.
Marcia,
“What, since you told us he didn’t show up a few days ago?”
Yes
“I’m sorry to hear it did a number on you. Hope you’ll continue to climb out slowly.”
It was bad. Couldn’t eat. Couldn’t sleep. Horrible anxiety. It’s better now but I’m not having a lot of fun.
“You say you envy him, but I can’t understand how people carry the burden, if they have sex behind an SO’s back (he has SO, right?).”
Yes, but I didn’t mean casual if one has an SO (which he does). I just meant casual sex in general. To just enjoy the moment for what it is. No expectations, no concerns about feelings.
“He should surely get out of his relationship if he wants casual?”
He wanted casual with me. I’m assuming he still wants to be in a relationship. Two separate things.
“But not of a sexual nature – just teasing my character, and I do it to her too. I don’t read loads into it now (I very much did at one time)”
Teasing can be a light form of flirtation. I did it with the above mentioned person to kind of test the waters. See what he would do. Because there’s still enough plausible deniability that one is actually trying to flirt.
However, for me to really consider it flirting … yes, there would have to be some sexual innuendo, compliments about my appearance, touching (although some people are touchy feely with everyone), etc.
“It did. She initiated most of the change. but I let her – I liked it and I ran with it.”
So … is it possible she enjoys your male energy, your male opinions, your male support and also enjoys that she doesn’t have to get into a relationship to get these things?
“She would never tolerate a PA, and yet knows I have been quite invested in being close friends with LO. She hasn’t ever tried to stop it, but I never told her about the limerence side.”
I can speak from experience. That PA meant nothing. He is not going to be hung up on me for the next several years. Sorry. I’m not trying to be harsh. But it’s the truth.
That message is to you, LaR. Don’t know why I put it to myself!
Marcia,
“I’m not having a lot of fun”
I imagine. Please look after yourself. What’s the plan now, grey-rock him (shut him out)?
“I just meant casual sex in general. To just enjoy the moment for what it is. No expectations, no concerns about feelings.”
OK, I understand you now. I’m not going to push loads, but if you want to discuss any part of it any further, I’m willing.
“for me to really consider it flirting … yes, there would have to be some sexual innuendo, compliments about my appearance, touching (although some people are touchy feely with everyone), etc.”
Yes, I agree. Those are clear signals. I never received those. I’m fine with that, because if I did, more boundaries would have blurred in my head and it would have made resistance even more difficult. Anyway, there is kind of a culture here where you can’t say anything or do anything like that (compliment appearance, touch people etc) in workplaces nowadays for fear of getting reported for harassment.
“So … is it possible she enjoys your male energy, your male opinions, your male support and also enjoys that she doesn’t have to get into a relationship to get these things?”
Absolutely possible. That’s about the most plausible reading of the situation for me. Even when I analysed it a lot, I usually came back to this explanation.
“That PA meant nothing. He is not going to be hung up on me for the next several years. Sorry. I’m not trying to be harsh. But it’s the truth.”
Not harsh as far as I’m concerned. I don’t understand that mindset from someone with an SO. But people are made differently, and I accept it’s the case with him if you say it is.
LaR,
“What’s the plan now, grey-rock him (shut him out)?”
I did, and now I regret it. It makes no sense. I don’t think this is someone I want to spend more time with, but … I want him to contact me. (I know. I can hear myself.)
“I’m not going to push loads, but if you want to discuss any part of it any further, I’m willing.”
I appreciate that. I just saw a whole different person than the one I knew (though I did not know him well). The whole encounter was weird and he said enough to let me know it was entertainment for him. I didn’t think he was madly in love with me but I thought he had some level of feelings for me.
“Anyway, there is kind of a culture here where you can’t say anything or do anything like that (compliment appearance, touch people etc) in workplaces nowadays for fear of getting reported for harassment.”
I agree, but I still think there are subtle ways of letting someone know you see them differently than other co-workers. With my previous LO (not LO-lite) … I could tell by the way he looked at me, interacted with me, talked to me, responded to me.
“Absolutely possible. That’s about the most plausible reading of the situation for me. Even when I analysed it a lot, I usually came back to this explanation.”
I can’t get into your LO’s head, but those are the things I got from my male friends. In retrospect, I think maybe it was a bit selfish of me.
“I don’t understand that mindset from someone with an SO. But people are made differently, and I accept it’s the case with him if you say it is.”
I didn’t say this was his mindset. It’s mine. And I know you said this isn’t the case for you and I’m sure there are other men whole feel the same way, but there are still a good number of men who can separate sex and love. If I was forced to pick, I’d pick the former for my SO to fall into rather than the latter. But I know we don’t agree on that.
Marcia,
“It makes no sense. I don’t think this is someone I want to spend more time with, but … I want him to contact me. (I know. I can hear myself.)”
Ah – as DrL would say “limerence is a bastard” (even if you don’t define this as limerence, you should get my drift).
“The whole encounter was weird and he said enough to let me know it was entertainment for him”.
If you feel certain (do you?) that that’s what he thought, then I completely get why it is disappointing and why it would feel like being used.
“there are subtle ways of letting someone know you see them differently than other co-workers. With my previous LO (not LO-lite) … I could tell by the way he looked at me, interacted with me, talked to me, responded to me.”
Yes, these same signals are why I’m in little doubt that my LO knew the elephant was in the room. I could not have hidden those signals no matter how hard I tried. The eyes don’t lie. Although men seem to be baffled at how to decode eyes, if we take the LwL men – me included – as a sample. MJ will happily talk on this topic forever, won’t you MJ? 🍵)
“I can’t get into your LO’s head, but those are the things I got from my male friends. In retrospect, I think maybe it was a bit selfish of me.”
I’m going to disagree on this point. Take my example – I have never offered LO the real possibility of anything more than friendship. So I feel we are playing the best available hand now, with the cards we’ve been dealt. Maybe some of those guys in your past would feel the same – just flattered that a woman wants to invest so much in them as a friend.
“I didn’t say this was his mindset. It’s mine”.
Ah OK, understand now.
“there are still a good number of men who can separate sex and love. If I was forced to pick, I’d pick the former for my SO to fall into rather than the latter. But I know we don’t agree on that”
We agree more than you might think on that. Mainly when I’ve debated this point with you before, I have been trying to articulate my SO’s view, more than my own view. If it was the other way round (if my SO had an LO), I may well prefer the one-night-stand to the EA.
LaR,
“Ah – as DrL would say “limerence is a bastard” (even if you don’t define this as limerence, you should get my drift).”
True dat. 🙂
“If you feel certain (do you?)”
Yes. He made some reference to us “having a nice time together” and when I said no to meeting up a second time, I don’t think he was particularly fazed.
“then I completely get why it is disappointing and why it would feel like being used.”
I think we were on two separate planets in terms of experience. I’m guessing here, but I’d say his motivation was validation and attention. Sex was obviously a motivation, but I’d say it was secondary. Mine … being a limerent … was of course intensity of experience. Physically and emotionally.
“The eyes don’t lie. Although men seem to be baffled at how to decode eyes, if we take the LwL men – ”
I was going to say this. It’s in the eyes. Now, limerent-lite never really looked at me the way I think you’re talking about. So I didn’t know he was interested. But my LO sure did. The first time I saw him, for example, we stared at each other. Another sign is hovering. The person is trying to be around you, spend time with you, etc.
“me included – as a sample. MJ will happily talk on this topic forever, won’t you MJ? 🍵)”
Speaking of which, where is my boyfriend?! Weasel done disappeared. He’s probably off chasing some young woman. 🙂
“Take my example – I have never offered LO the real possibility of anything more than friendship. ”
So I guess what I’m saying is … what I did with my male friends was the female version of a man who does a situationship with a woman. I wanted the benefits of having a boyfriend without actually having the boyfriend. I wanted the attention and the emotional support and the male energy without the sex and commitment. Whereas a man in a situationship wants the benefits of having a girlfriend — the companionship, the friendship, the sex — without committing. They’re variations of the same theme. And I never actually asked my male friends what they wanted; they never asked me. I just kind of assumed we were on the same page about it just being a friendship until they started making sexual comments.
“So I feel we are playing the best available hand now, with the cards we’ve been dealt.”
Idk. I just don’t think you can hang out with an LO as a friend. You’re doing what I call a workaround. Trying to keep your LO in your life in any way you can. I get it. I’ve done it.
“Mainly when I’ve debated this point with you before, I have been trying to articulate my SO’s view, more than my own view. If it was the other way round (if my SO had an LO), I may well prefer the one-night-stand to the EA.”
Ah, ok. That’s interesting. Most women are more bothered by emotional infidelity more than physical infidelity; most men are more bothered by physical infidelity. The scene in “Fatal Attraction” where the husband character, played by Michael Douglas, tells his wife, played by Anne Archer, he’s had an affair is dead on. Her first question is, “Are you in love with her?”
LaR,
“when I said no to meeting up a second time…”
If I was to prod at that in the spirit of debate, it reads like he asked you and you said no. So in a way, that he was the more keen of the two of you. I am getting from you that it wasn’t a ‘truly memorable experience’ (that’s some true Brit diplomatic understatement right there).
“…I don’t think he was particularly fazed.”
That could be in response. If you said you weren’t bothered about meeting him, he wouldn’t want to lose face by looking too fazed.
“I’d say his motivation was validation and attention.”
It often is with men. What else can really be driving those limerent type men you have referred to before, who orbit the LO but never intend to follow through physically?
“Mine … being a limerent … was of course intensity of experience. Physically and emotionally.”
Being limerent is like a form of perfectionism sometimes.
“Speaking of which, where is my boyfriend?! Weasel done disappeared. He’s probably off chasing some young woman. 🙂”
📣📣 MJ dude, vacancy at the inn here! Your time might have arrived. Switch off your Sabrina videos for a while …
“I just kind of assumed we were on the same page about it just being a friendship until they started making sexual comments.”
Has this always happened with men friends? (excluding gay men obviously). Or just one or two? (Like MJ and Adam 😉)
“You’re doing what I call a workaround. Trying to keep your LO in your life in any way you can. I get it. I’ve done it.”
I could have a decent stab at arguing back, based on the fact LO is a coworker, that I don’t have a choice to not have her in my life. That is true. But bottom line, you are probably right about the workaround too. I’m can’t really envisage myself pushing her out of my life totally.
“The scene in “Fatal Attraction” where the husband character, played by Michael Douglas, tells his wife, played by Anne Archer, he’s had an affair is dead on. Her first question is, “Are you in love with her?””
I think L.E. has told a story a bit like that about something his wife asked him.
Knowing what limerence is from the inside (I kind of knew before, but this LE has knocked all the others out of the park) has changed my perspective on whether a fling or an LE on my SO’s part would be the easier to deal with. I know now how deep an LE can run – even if the LO is unknowing, I mean inside the limerent’s brain.
Marcia,
And now I’ve just done that same thing above where I wrote the message with my own name at the top 🤦♂️ How many years of limerence lead to permanent madness and brain cell loss?
LaR,
“That could be in response. If you said you weren’t bothered about meeting him, he wouldn’t want to lose face by looking too fazed.”
He asked over email. I said no and he got a little persnickety with me but didn’t ask why. Did I hurt him or hurt his ego? And then an hour later I sent another email saying that if things continued, I might develop feelings. Did I write that hoping he’d say he had feelings? Yes. But he hasn’t responded. I don’t think he gives a s**t.
“What else can really be driving those limerent type men you have referred to before, who orbit the LO but never intend to follow through physically?”
I think validation is a big one. The thrill of the flirtation. The excitement.
“📣📣 MJ dude, vacancy at the inn here! Your time might have arrived. Switch off your Sabrina videos for a while …”
It’s bad enough he’s got a whole room in his house dedicated to her. I put up with that. What more can a girl do? 🙂
“Has this always happened with men friends? (excluding gay men obviously). Or just one or two? (Like MJ and Adam 😉)”
Lol. Again, where are my fans? They’ve disappeared! 🙂
Just to be clear that my definition of “friend” is a man I’m communicating with and maybe hanging out with outside of wherever we met. It’s not just a work buddy. I’d say it’s happened with … 80 percent or more, yes. Not all but most. (I have one right now where we just text. We don’t hang out. He’s married. And, no, it hasn’t happened with him. I don’t expect that it will. I don’t want it to, don’t think he does. But I wouldn’t say we’re close friends.)
“I could have a decent stab at arguing back, based on the fact LO is a coworker, that I don’t have a choice to not have her in my life.”
You don’t have a choice in seeing her at work but you could have completely pulled back as a friend. No more texting, hanging out. Made it all business.
“I’m can’t really envisage myself pushing her out of my life totally.”
It’s hard when you’re in the middle of the LE to get your head around never seeing the person again. Or having no personal contact.
“Knowing what limerence is from the inside (I kind of knew before, but this LE has knocked all the others out of the park) has changed my perspective on whether a fling or an LE on my SO’s part would be the easier to deal with. I know now how deep an LE can run – even if the LO is unknowing, I mean inside the limerent’s brain.”
That’s exactly my point. You can be limerent for YEARS. The limerent is essentially obsessed with the LO. No, thank you.
” How many years of limerence lead to permanent madness and brain cell loss?”
Well, I’ve had several LEs … so I probably have 3 brains cells left. 🙂
Hi LAR and Marcia,
haven’t followed posts, is what you are discussing something of Marcia’s past or is it recent? In latter case, Marcia, so sorry to hear it troubles you! The little I read of it just shows that you are the one with heart and sensitivity, and he seems an ordinary cheater? Or maybe I’m mistaken since I haven’t read all, so better shut up.
Maybe some dark chocolate would help?
Marcia,
“And then an hour later I sent another email saying that if things continued, I might develop feelings.”
Ok, I was misunderstanding something quite major until I saw this comment and also something in Snow’s last message – that you said no to meeting him again because of the possibiluty of feelings developing. Previously I thought it was because (for you) the physical experience hadn’t lived up. This all makes more sense now. You don’t want to have feelings if he doesn’t?
As a man, your message to him can be read off without much difficulty as a wish to hear if he has any feelings, although it could be ambiguous with you trying to give him the brush-off but make him feel better / not lose face. In any case, him revealing the existence of feelings in writing (when he has a partner) is not likely, because it leaves an ‘audit trail’. Do you have to see him at work or can he be avoided if you need to?
[Or just one or two? (Like MJ and Adam 😉]
“Lol. Again, where are my fans? They’ve disappeared! 🙂”
I think they’re just giving you a little calming time after this week’s events. Ain’t no way they can stop themselves knockin at the door forever!!
“my definition of “friend” is a man I’m communicating with and maybe hanging out with outside of wherever we met. It’s not just a work buddy.”
Yes when I talk of a friend I’m using the same definition.
“I’d say it’s happened with … 80 percent or more”
This topic has been done to death on LwL, but I do agree that men are dreadful at confusing when a woman is sending friendship signals or more. People often compliment me (in situations not linked to my relationships!) that I can read a room well, but I still can’t tell the difference well between very warm friendship signals and ‘more’ signals. You’ve explained it to me well before as where either the words or actions switch more to the physical.
With my previous LO (several years ago) and a crush on someone else soon after, there ended up being mutual disclosures which proved we’d both read each other right. It was affirming to know I’d read it right. Hasn’t given me any bigger clue about whether I was right with this latest one (who I won’t disclose to) though 😆🤯
“you could have completely pulled back as a friend. No more texting, hanging out. Made it all business.”
I did that for about 3 months but then things felt (and still feel) much safer to resume more of the rest. I appreciate that could be more ‘storying’ though. It is what it is. If I thought she didn’t want me around, I wouldn’t pester her. But the signals she gives me (verbal and non verbal) are that she does want me around / it hurts her if I go distant.
“Well, I’ve had several LEs … so I probably have 3 brains cells left. 🙂”
I have seriously wondered if LEs take out brain cells – such a delusional thing, on paper a waste of time, yet so addictive. Still, I have gained some extra braincells to compensate, from all I have learned on LwL. Its like the topic became my obsession, to replace the person being my obsession.
„In any case, him revealing the existence of feelings in writing (when he has a partner) is not likely, because it leaves an ‘audit trail’.“
I second that.
Also, it could be that he simply takes you at word- you don’t want to see him because of possibly developing feelings, he thinks it’s a reasonable reason and that’s it. Men are sometimes so pragmatic.
Mila,
“is what you are discussing something of Marcia’s past or is it recent?”
Recent
“In latter case, Marcia, so sorry to hear it troubles you! The little I read of it just shows that you are the one with heart and sensitivity, and he seems an ordinary cheater?”
I knew better. I made the decision to do it.
“Maybe some dark chocolate would help?”
Not quite the same as the excitement of sitting in your little outfit waiting for your dude to show up. 🙂
LaR,
“Previously I thought it was because (for you) the physical experience hadn’t lived up.”
Well, it didn’t. That was part of my saying no. And I saw sides of his personality I frankly didn’t like. But as soon as I said no, I regretted it. (I realize this make no sense.)
“You don’t want to have feelings if he doesn’t?”
Exactly. And I can’t be intimate with someone over and over and treat it like entertainment. I really wish I could. I also wish I could have several dudes in rotation. And just have fun. I can’t seem to do that, either. I get tunnel vision on one person.
“In any case, him revealing the existence of feelings in writing (when he has a partner) is not likely, because it leaves an ‘audit trail’. ”
He had no qualms talking about being into me and setting up a rendezvous with me over email.
I’d say email is actually easier to hide than texts. Delete the email. Then delete it from the trash bin. It’s gone. A text, well you can delete it … but you can also get the cell phone bill and see every call/text that’s been made. As in: why are you texting this number so much?
“Do you have to see him at work or can he be avoided if you need to?”
I don’t see him that often, and if I do, I’ll know ahead of time based on the schedule, so thank God it won’t be a surprise. I’m not too worried about it. He won’t say anything at work. He never has.
“I think they’re just giving you a little calming time after this week’s events. Ain’t no way they can stop themselves knockin at the door forever!!”
I don’t like when people disappear! I need a LOT of reassurance. 🙂
“This topic has been done to death on LwL, but I do agree that men are dreadful at confusing when a woman is sending friendship signals or more.”
Yes, this is very true. I think part of it is our societal roles. A man has to assume interest because he’s the one going up to bat with the approach.
“You’ve explained it to me well before as where either the words or actions switch more to the physical.”
Did I say that? I’ll use my current guy friend/co-worker as an example. He’s given me no indications of interest. He doesn’t stare at me, look googly-eyed at me, get nervous around me, compliment me, touch me, hover around me or try to spend more time with me, etc. Those are the signs I would look for.
“I did that for about 3 months”
That’s not enough time to get over an LE, and you know it. 🙂
” but then things felt (and still feel) much safer to resume more of the rest.”
I’m not sure what you mean by “safer.” Your feelings were still there, right?
“But the signals she gives me (verbal and non verbal) are that she does want me around / it hurts her if I go distant.”
I have to honest: This is an excuse. I’ve read it many times on here. “Oh, my LO would be hurt.” That has to be secondary to the considerations of a spouse, no? (I realize this is highly hypocritical given my recent situation.)
I can’t definitively tell you how your SO would feel about your ongoing friendship with your LO. And do you know yourself as you haven’t discussed it? Maybe she’d be ok with it. Maybe she wouldn’t. Idk. And maybe your LO is ok with just a friendship. If she does have feelings, however, a friendship is going to start to feel like crumbs.
” Still, I have gained some extra braincells to compensate, from all I have learned on LwL. Its like the topic became my obsession, to replace the person being my obsession.”
But can you really replace brain cells? 🙂 Ha! I agree. I’m now obsessed with writing about limerence! 🙂
LaR,
Ha! I figured out where MJ is. He is spending some … er … alone time with the new Sabrina Carpenter album cover. 🙂
I can’t post it here. Dr. L would yell at me.
“ But as soon as I said no, I regretted it. (I realize this make no sense.)”
Does make sense to almost anyone from the limerent tribe.
“I can’t be intimate with someone over and over and treat it like entertainment. I really wish I could.”
On a purely hypothetical level, I wish I could too – kind of all the fun of the fair without having to clear up the trash the next day. But that hasn’t and wouldn’t happen for me.
“I don’t like when people disappear! I need a LOT of reassurance. 🙂”
Come on senior men of LwL, step up!!
“I think part of it is our societal roles. A man has to assume interest because he’s the one going up to bat with the approach.”
Hadn’t thought about it that way, but a good new take to have.
“Did I say that?”
I think the context you said it in was when telling me/other men here that you can’t rely on eye contact, frequent bantering comments etc, as those could just be signs of friendship. Only the physical signs or comments are solid evidence of more.
“That’s not enough time to get over an LE, and you know it. 🙂”
Well look partly I’d just say “yeah, you got me there”, and believe it, but see also my next answer below.
“I’m not sure what you mean by “safer.” Your feelings were still there, right?”
still there to an extent, but much more mild and balanced. Not driving myself crazy over it at all, more relaxed around here, KNOW that it is never going to happen (visceral Death of Hope), it feels much more like the friendship we used to have now before I had limerence.
“I can’t definitively tell you how your SO would feel about your ongoing friendship with your LO. And do you know yourself as you haven’t discussed it?”
Complicated to answer. I’ll write a separate post to answer this when I have more time.
“And maybe your LO is ok with just a friendship.”
I mean that’s what I see/feel, and that’s all I have to go on. I might elaborate when I reply about the other.
🚜 LaR!
[“I don’t like when people disappear! I need a LOT of reassurance. 🙂”
Come on senior men of LwL, step up!!]
Are you Insinuating my INFP sister is a senior⁉️ How dare you⁉️ 🎩 🌽 🔨 🔨
I’m getting into my ride now! 💃🏻
Oh no no my dearest ❄️ – I know what’s good for me!
I was merely implying that the men on LwL who normally ✊️✊️ on Dame Marcia’s 🚪are like the elders of this place – obviously in terms of accumulated time and wisdom here, not age 😁
Phew. If Amoor’s is open for the weekend, then mine’s a 🍺 – I’ve been grafting hard here!
LaR,
“Does make sense to almost anyone from the limerent tribe.”
Ugh. I’m still checking my email all the time to see if he reaches out. It’s insane.
The good news is … I’m have some other potentials. Little nibbles. (Although the date I was supposed to have didn’t respond when I reached out to verify. So that fell through.) I’m texting with one guy from the dating site. We text a lot. I’m pulling an MJ. He’s quite a bit younger. 🙂 But he’s slightly distracting me from Sketchball. We have plans to meet up next week. Another young one I’m messaging on the site. And there’s one whose profile I liked … he liked me back and started a conversation. He just said hi. But he’s actually the first person who I could actually see myself going out with. I like what he says in the profile but I also the pictures (that’s the first time that’s happened in the week or so I’ve been on the site). I’m going to need some Valium to get through this! I’m also going to some meetups in the next few days. You never know. I’m trying to kill the scarcity mindset that Sketchball is the only man in town.
“On a purely hypothetical level, I wish I could too – kind of all the fun of the fair without having to clear up the trash the next day. But that hasn’t and wouldn’t happen for me.”
The only way I was ever able to detach or not care is if I wasn’t into the guy that much. But who wants to have sex with someone you’re not into?
“Come on senior men of LwL, step up!!”
I love that you called them “senior.” Made me laugh. 🙂
“Hadn’t thought about it that way, but a good new take to have.”
Well, men carry a disproportionate amount of the burden in early dating. They’re expected to approach, get the number, ask out, plan the date, pay, follow up, etc. From what I understand, there’s a lot of rejection (they have to ask out a number of women before they get a yes), which I would assume is very difficult. Very difficult. I think you’d have to adopt the mindset of: I’m going to assume this person is interested. If you didn’t, you’d never get up to bat.
“I think the context you said it in was when telling me/other men here that you can’t rely on eye contact, frequent bantering comments etc, as those could just be signs of friendship. Only the physical signs or comments are solid evidence of more.”
Well, yes and no. I mean, eye contact CAN mean something or it can’t. Don’t you look at people when they are talking to you? There are no absolute signs. Someone can be very flirtatious with you and not be interested. They can just enjoy flirting. But, on the other hand, they could be interested.
This is one of the clips I found that demonstrates what I mean by eye contact meaning something. I had a few other examples in mind but I couldn’t find them online.
So it’s Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton. He runs a school where her son has been sent. He’s married and a minister. (She’s single.) So he’s very, very limited in what he can express. But he’s into her the minute she walks in the room. It’s obvious. (You don’t have to watch the whole clip. Just the first few seconds.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfyAARLbv3o&t=1s
“still there to an extent, but much more mild and balanced. Not driving myself crazy over it at all, more relaxed around her”
Ok. I get it. That’s what happened with Sketchball. I was really into him when I first met him. Very attracted (though I don’t know if I’d say limerent), but the feelings went down to manageable levels because nothing was happening. I thought I’d be fine.
Snow,
“Are you Insinuating my INFP sister is a senior⁉️ How dare you⁉️ 🎩 🌽 🔨 🔨”
I love that you defended me, my INFP sister! (I also love that Mila came up with that name for us, btw.)
I didn’t really take it like that. I thought it was funny.
LaR,
“I was merely implying that the men on LwL who normally ✊️✊️ on Dame Marcia’s 🚪are like the elders of this place – obviously in terms of accumulated time and wisdom here, not age 😁”
I might call Adam wise. Not MJ. Ha! Had to get that one in! 🙂
“He is spending some … er … alone time with the new Sabrina Carpenter album cover.”
Marcia, LaR,
I see that I appear to have been missed by you two.. Been a very busy week for me so far. Getting my a$$ kicked at work doesn’t help either. You two are so busy chatting up a storm, that I can’t seem to keep up.. @LaR, thank you for taking care of my Woman. I’m enjoying your chat.. 🤣
Now to all this Sabrina nonsense.. 😂 @Marcia, you weren’t supposed to tell everyone about my Secret Sabrina Shrine. So what if I have a whole room with life sized posters of her covered from floor to ceiling?? And her music softly playing in the background 24/7.. What’s so weird about that? I’m a sad, pathetic, middle aged limerent, that can’t even get a cup of coffee with a Woman.. My Sabrina Shrine gives me peace.. 🤣🤣
Btw, that album cover is quite nice isn’t it??
She wanted me to show my face so I could be in it too, but I said for effect, it would look better with just my fingers in her hair.. I feel so famous now.. 😂
MJ,
“@LaR, thank you for taking care of my Woman. I’m enjoying your chat.. 🤣”
Somebody had to. You dropped the ball. 🙂
“@Marcia, you weren’t supposed to tell everyone about my Secret Sabrina Shrine.”
I didn’t tell them everything about us, now did I? 🙂
” I’m a sad, pathetic, middle aged limerent, that can’t even get a cup of coffee with a Woman.. ”
Ok, my friend. I started online dating. You can do it, too. Or join some groups. Do SOMETHING to meet people. LF and your LO are not the only women in town.
“Btw, that album cover is quite nice isn’t it??”
I like it. It a take on an old theme that we’ve seen before with Madonna and Britney. But it’s pissing off the Gen Zers, who are so anti-sex. She’s bucking the trend of her generation. It’s cool.
„ I love that you defended me, my INFP sister! (I also love that Mila came up with that name for us, btw.)“
Uh, I didn’t? Wish I had though. But I can never get the order of all those initials right.
Marcia, so cool that you have all these guys lined up and younger ones too. Who needs sketchball?(what does that mean, by the way?)
I‘m on a (private) trip again and not much time to catch up with the story, but I’m confident that all these potential meet-ups will cure you from this guy. Know that I live vicariously through you now that I’m not allowed to text, give me some excitement here!
I don’t agree fully with the chocolate. A really good dark chocolate is definitely better than being stood up in a slinky outfit by any man.
Mila,
“Uh, I didn’t? Wish I had though. But I can never get the order of all those initials right.”
Oh, you didn’t come up with the name? My bad. I thought you had.
“Marcia, so cool that you have all these guys lined up and younger ones too.”
Well, we’re chatting. I don’t know if anything will happen beyond that. I’ve given you the good highlights. There’s been some icky parts. First guy who messaged me — the VERY FIRST GUY — was trying to get me to come over his house to “help me sleep.” And I’m not wildly excited about these guys. My standard is … pictures aren’t awful, we may have something common. This new one who messaged me today is the first one I think is pretty cute.
“Who needs sketchball?(what does that mean, by the way?)”
I think he’s a little sleazy.
“I‘m on a (private) trip again and not much time to catch up with the story, but I’m confident that all these potential meet-ups will cure you from this guy. Know that I live vicariously through you now that I’m not allowed to text, give me some excitement here!”
I agree with the other posters. Don’t text your guy.
“I don’t agree fully with the chocolate. A really good dark chocolate is definitely better than being stood up in a slinky outfit by any man.”
I didn’t mean being stood up. I mean … him actually showing up. Is there nothing hotter than him texting he’s on his way over and you’re sitting there waiting for him … like a spider? 🙂 There’s literally nothing he could do physically once he arrives that will be hotter than that anticipation.
Dame Marcia,
If you’re not now busy with either MJ or one of these younger guys from the app, let me get down to brass tacks about the two questions I couldn’t answer earlier.
“maybe your LO is ok with just a friendship. If she does have feelings, however, a friendship is going to start to feel like crumbs.”
You said before about how some women (including you in the past with certain men) can enjoy getting all the benefits of a male friend without the complications of a relationship. This is my best guess at what this ‘thing’ looks like from her point of view.
It is just a guess. I can only work with the evidence I have and ‘reading the room’. I have never trusted that ability about whether LO has ‘feelings’ or not, but I DO trust it in terms of what she conveys about preferring to be friends than not. She explicitly and regularly asks me to spend time with her outside the necessary (it’s that way round, much more than the other). That doesn’t smack of someone who has an issue with being friends. No, she doesn’t know the facts about my limerence, but I am pretty sure I’ve leaked it like a tap in the past, so on some level she must know.
“I can’t definitively tell you how your SO would feel about your ongoing friendship with your LO. And do you know yourself as you haven’t discussed it?”
Here is why I say this is complicated. My SO doesn’t know about the LE I have gone through. So when you ask me if I ‘haven’t discussed it’ with her, if discussing it means discussing an LE, then no I haven’t.
If we are talking about the friendship side, well since SO first even knew me, she knew LO as a colleague and friend of mine. She knows I spend a lot of time with LO at work and also a bit of time outside work.
I’m not proud of this part, but nearer the beginning of my LE, I did fib to SO. For example, I may have been out after work with LO, but said to SO that other people were there too, when in fact it was just the two of us.
Around 9 months into the two-year LE (I was on LwL by this point and learning for the first time about limerence), I became too uncomfortable with what I was doing with the fibbing. I vowed to be truthful with SO from then on. Since then I have never lied. Every bit of time I have spent with LO, where we were and who else was or wasn’t there, I have told the truth about.
So, SO does know the truthful dynamics of how this friendship has played out for that 15 month period since. She just doesn’t know what has gone on in my head. She sees LO as a solid work colleague who has kept my morale up in the face of a lot of tough times at work in that spell. And she knows she’s my friend out of work too. She has never tried to put a stop to it. LO’s name comes up very regularly in conversations between SO and I, without hostility. She more just asks after how my friend is.
I’m not telling you all this to try and spin a story, justify myself or anything else. I have genuinely dug myself out of the hole that limerence was causing me at one point, when (at that stage) I was often emotionally absent for SO and preoccupied by my LE. I have killed the idea in my brain that LO and I will ever ‘have anything’ beyond what we have now. But I’m not prepared to throw out someone out of my life who is honestly one of the best friends I’ve ever had. Think of yourself as ‘that friend’ to a guy from your past who eventually dumped you as a friend because he got a girl, and maybe that will help you relate a bit to where I am. I just don’t want to be ‘that guy’ that dumps my friend. I am not letting limerence do that to me.
“Ok, my friend. I started online dating. You can do it, too. Or join some groups. Do SOMETHING to meet people.”
@Marcia,
Thanks for your vote of confidence in me. I’m glad you at least think a little higher of myself than I do. 😂
I actually do have something in the works to tell you the truth. Not work related either, if you can believe that. It’s too soon to say anything and I won’t put the cart before the horse, because talking about it will just bring bad luck. So no details for you or anyone yet. Hardly going to he a limerent thing either, I do know that..
“If you’re not now busy with either MJ or one of these younger guys from the app, let me get down to brass tacks…”
@LaR
Let me get down to some brass tacks.. 😂
Marcia is never too busy with me.
If anything, I’ll end up just getting crap-fitted into her life like with every other Woman I meet and befriend. So keep it up my friend. I’m learning a lot from you guys’ conversations..
😆
Marcia,
“Ugh. I’m still checking my email all the time to see if he reaches out. It’s insane.”
It’s horrible but I fully get it.
“I’m trying to kill the scarcity mindset that Sketchball is the only man in town.”
Your methods here get my seal of approval📌
“But who wants to have sex with someone you’re not into?”
I’ve never wanted to. I need to be into them to make the prospect of it enjoyable.
“Well, men carry a disproportionate amount of the burden in early dating … if you didn’t, you’d never get up to bat.”
Very true. I think that explains why I didn’t chance it much when younger. Sometimes, looking back, I can see it was staring me in the face but I couldn’t see it enough to believe it and stress-test it.
“This is one of the clips I found that demonstrates what I mean by eye contact … he’s into her the minute she walks in the room.”
It’s a great clip at illustrating what you say. I’d say it’s the way he holds the eye contact a bit too long and checks his natural responses that gives it away.
(wider point – I’m generally not strong at all on knowing the film and TV cultural references that you and Snow drop in … so if ever in future you feel one helps me understand a point that I ought to, very short clips like this are really helpful).
“I might call Adam wise. Not MJ. Ha! Had to get that one in! 🙂”
About Adam – definitely. On the other point, I’m not fooled by you two 🙂
Snow,
“🎩 🌽 🔨 🔨”
Ouch ❄️, you broke my 🚜 with your 🔨. What about the crops?
MJ,
“LaR, thank you for taking care of my Woman. I’m enjoying your chat.. 🤣”
I mean the pleasure’s been all mine, but don’t be too neglectful or it looks like she could turn to a younger model 😮
MJ,
I know when not to push, but that sounds … intriguing … do keep us up to date when you say more.
Marcia has a lot of time for you, so she has told me in our recent spell of fireside chats, she just doesn’t find it easy to admit. Believe, man!
As for me, I have concluded nobody can really claim their LwL stripes without sparring a bit with the Dame.
LaR,
“If you’re not now busy with either MJ or one of these younger guys from the app, let me get down to brass tacks about the two questions I couldn’t answer earlier.”
Well, as I wrote, we’re so far just messaging. I want them to ask me out. I want them to step up. I want them to take charge. I find that hot.
I just got back from a meetup. I didn’t have a bad time but I didn’t have a good one. The only guy I thought was cute was talking to another woman. And I wonder … is this it? Is Sketchball the only person I’ll feel excited by for … how long?
“She explicitly and regularly asks me to spend time with her outside the necessary (it’s that way round, much more than the other). That doesn’t smack of someone who has an issue with being friends. ”
I don’t know what I would do if some guy I was really into just offered me friendship. Would I still spend time with him (because that was all I was going to get) or would I eventually shut it all down?
“I’m not proud of this part, but nearer the beginning of my LE, I did fib to SO. For example, I may have been out after work with LO, but said to SO that other people were there too, when in fact it was just the two of us.”
I mean, I’m not going to scold you. 🙂
“Think of yourself as ‘that friend’ to a guy from your past who eventually dumped you as a friend because he got a girl”
Well, that happened to me. A very close male friend didn’t dump me but pulled way back and vastly limited time to talk/text. He’s now was slotting me in. And it was painful. It took me about a year to fully process/get over. BUT … neither side was limerent.
So that wasn’t an issue.
I just don’t understand why you couldn’t be honest with a close friend. “I don’t think I can hang out with you right now. I’ve developed feelings. I hope you understand.”
Ok. I read your whole post. Honest question, taking yourself out of it as much as possible … and, frankly, your own self-interest in terms of making your life uncomfortable … do you think your SO would want to know?
Or is it something she’d only want to know if there was physical infidelity?
MJ,
“Thanks for your vote of confidence in me. I’m glad you at least think a little higher of myself than I do. 😂”
The operative words being “a little.” 🙂
“Hardly going to he a limerent thing either, I do know that..”
I have one piece of advice that you didn’t ask for but I’ll give anyway. Make a move asap. Don’t put yourself in the friendzone for months on end. Don’t waste your time on another LF.
You’re MJ, dammit. These ladies either appreciate you or you walk! 🙂
MJ, Adam and LaR,
I’d like you all to show up at my house and stand up against the wall. I’ll pick the one I want. That’s my fantasy. 🙂
LaR,
“It’s horrible but I fully get it.”
Now I just feel sad.
[“I’m trying to kill the scarcity mindset that Sketchball is the only man in town.”]
“Your methods here get my seal of approval📌”
They’re not working.
“Sometimes, looking back, I can see it was staring me in the face but I couldn’t see it enough to believe it and stress-test it.”
I had this exact conversation with a male friend once. We talked about some of the hints women had given him. That I would have seen as obvious. He didn’t. He missed some opportunities.
“It’s a great clip at illustrating what you say. I’d say it’s the way he holds the eye contact a bit too long and checks his natural responses that gives it away.”
He also takes a second to regain composure before he talks to her.
“very short clips like this are really helpful).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExrllCY0O0I
At 13 seconds. The look in his eye when he’s watching her.
“On the other point, I’m not fooled by you two 🙂”
I’m not trying to fool you. 🙂
“I mean the pleasure’s been all mine, but don’t be too neglectful or it looks like she could turn to a younger model”
A girl’s got to do what a girl’s go to to do. 🙂
You realize these younger models probably just think we’re going to have a short-term rodeo, right? 🙂
“Marcia has a lot of time for you, so she has told me in our recent spell of fireside chats, she just doesn’t find it easy to admit. Believe, man!”
I ain’t admitting to nothin’ . 🙂
“As for me, I have concluded nobody can really claim their LwL stripes without sparring a bit with the Dame.”
Lol
“As for me, I have concluded nobody can really claim their LwL stripes without sparring a bit with the Dame.”
LaR,
In that case, I’ve earned many stripes and a ton of stars for sparring it out with the Old Bitty.. Loving every minute of it of course.. We’re gonna be like Norman and Ethel from “On Golden Pond” 😂
“I ain’t admitting to nothin’ . 🙂”
Marcia,
Why you gotta be like that to Brother LaR? We talked about this. You know you can’t resist my wit and charms. Or are you and LF in cahoots now talking smack?? You know you and her Mother are the same age.. 🤣
“MJ, Adam and LaR,
I’d like you all to show up at my house and stand up against the wall. I’ll pick the one I want. That’s my fantasy. 🙂”
And then I’ll just show myself right back out the door because you for sure won’t pick me.
I’m actually available..
MJ,
“In that case, I’ve earned many stripes and a ton of stars for sparring it out with the Old Bitty.. ”
Did you just call me an Old Bitty? I don’t like that at all.
“Or are you and LF in cahoots now talking smack?? ”
Oh, I’m dying to get your secret out of her. Is it about sexual debauchery? 🙂
“You know you and her Mother are the same age.. 🤣”
So are you! 🙂
“And then I’ll just show myself right back out the door because you for sure won’t pick me.
I’m actually available…”
Ture. And you’re also the oldest. 🙂
This has to be one of my favourite exchanges on LwL ever. I shook uncontrollably with laughter when I read it, to the point I’m really struggling to think of something plausible to tell SO about why:
[MJ] “You know you and her Mother are the same age.. 🤣”
[Marcia]: “So are you! 🙂”
If there were gongs in this place, that should get one.
Marcia,
“I want them to step up. I want them to take charge. I find that hot.”
I don’t blame you. Lets face it, people shouldn’t be on a dating app just to exchange pleasantaries. Even though the world has changed quite a lot since I used dating apps, I would think it still leans towards the guy needing to make the first move?
A former female friend was once on an app and disillusioned with the poor level of chat the men had. She let me go on there for an evening pretending to be her and just basically roast guys who said stupid things to her. I couldn’t believe the poor quality of some of their chat. I’d say stuff like “Ok, tell me something interesting about yourself” and if they gave a predictable answer like “I work out” write back and say “no, I said something interesting”. Most of them ducked out then.
I used to find all that preamble to getting on a date hard work. But it did allow me to filter for “at the least I could get on with/spend a few houes with this person”. I don’t know how much people still use pre-messaging that way.
“I just got back from a meetup.”
What is a ‘meetup’ (we probably have a different word for whatever it is here)?
“And I wonder … is this it? Is Sketchball the only person I’ll feel excited by for … how long?” and “They aren’t working”
But it has only been, what, a week? … these ‘clicks’ with people don’t happen that often and I do think you have to play the percentage game a bit, like I said about dating apps before. What I mean is, if you go to five of these meetup things, you’re much more likely to meet someone than by going to one. But it’s tiring, right?
“Would I still spend time with him (because that was all I was going to get) or would I eventually shut it all down?”
Snow nearly had my head on a plate for saying this to her once, but I feel LO does have the option open to shut it down totally just as much as I do. Why Snow didn’t like that answer was that she pointed out that I (or LO and I between us) might have spun so much of a web that it would NOT be possible for LO to pull out, even if on the surface I think it is.
“I just don’t understand why you couldn’t be honest with a close friend. “I don’t think I can hang out with you right now. I’ve developed feelings. I hope you understand.””
That’s one of your best questions to me ever.
OK, if I truly wanted that to happen, I believe I could have that conversation with her, and that she’d ‘get it’, and give me the space needed to make it happen. I don’t think there would be hard feelings. But I also don’t think there would be any going back. The fact is, I haven’t wanted it to happen enough. I was close, but did a ‘lite / plausible deniability’ version instead. That did let me reset, and I’m far more on top of my own mind and of the situation now, but it was still a version that kept her around at some lower level.
“do you think your SO would want to know?
Or is it something she’d only want to know if there was physical infidelity?”
Another great question. You see, my brain takes me immediately to the answer ‘no, she wouldn’t want to know unless there was physical infidelity’. I talked about this to at least two SOs (women with husbands limerent for someone else) who posted on LwL. They both said they’d rather not have known if they believed their husbands could solve it. My answer based on all I know of my SO is that she would be the same as those two.
But am I just cherry-picking facts there to suit the story that I like best? Possibly. The version where I don’t tell her allows me to keep my life much as it is. The version where I tell her everything has the very worst case outcome of losing SO (and possibly also LO, as she wouldn’t want the association with it).
“MJ, Adam and LaR,
I’d like you all to show up at my house and stand up against the wall. I’ll pick the one I want. That’s my fantasy. 🙂”
Hang on, let me just check the flight times…though I am not sure I could measure up to Adam’s dress sense or MJ’s eye contact.
‘”At 13 seconds. The look in his eye when he’s watching her.”
Oh my God yeah. Triggering!
“You realize these younger models probably just think we’re going to have a short-term rodeo, right? 🙂”
Put them right 🙂
I am still laughing about MJ and your exchange. I have some awkward family stuff to get through today, so I’m grateful
“Did you just call me an Old Bitty? I don’t like that at all.”
Marcia,
Did I just offend thee, Grand Ol’ Dame? A thousand apologies if I did. You know I’m only joking “Old Friend” (Or is it “Old Fiend?” 🤣) Perhaps I need a good chiding. I know you’ll be first in line to give me one. To that I say, Old Bitty, Feisty Old Broad, whats the difference? Calling you a “Broad” in any facet seems offensive to me imo, but maybe not.. Feisty and old might be a better combination. Broad to me just sounds like a slur, but what the hell do I know? I mean no offense. I just don’t want to grow up..
To me I always feel like you constantly making our 54 years seem as “old” drives me up a wall. It’s like I feel almost like we have to put 1 foot in the grave now because we’re over 50 and that’s just it.. I don’t feel like I’m over 50. I don’t want to feel like I’m over 50 and guess I’m in straight denial over dwelling on the fact I actually am over 50.. Which should explain mostly why I levitate towards females 30 and below..
Sure I may have a few more aches and pains now. More so than when I was 30, but I don’t like it.. I worry because I’m not getting any younger and the dating market for men right now is God Awful. At any age.. I’m running out of time..
“Oh, I’m dying to get your secret out of her. Is it about sexual debauchery?”
You’ll never know..
What you can know is I’m named after a Saint. 😇
“So are you! 🙂”
Yes but the difference here is I’m not as old as her Dad, who is 60..
Besides, LF doesn’t mind older guys. Cool older guys.. Older guys mind you, that don’t disclose their feelings to her.. 😑
(Yes I will infact be kicking myself in the a$$ for that one till my dying breath..)
“Ture. And you’re also the oldest. 🙂”
And there you go again reminding me why I need to go make a reservation at the Senior Center later or start pre-planning my funeral arrangements. If I can get those in before the fall, I can get it at a sale price right now of just $995.00. What a freakin steal.. 😆
“If there were gongs in this place, that should get one.”
LaR,
That’s why I posted it..
😆😆
“I am still laughing about MJ and your exchange. I have some awkward family stuff to get through today, so I’m grateful”
Anything to help a Brother out. I totally expected that kind of reaction.. Glad to be of some help my Friend.. 🤣
LaR,
“I would think it still leans towards the guy needing to make the first move?”
Here’s an example. One of the young ones … we’ve been messaging on the site for about a week. He finally suggests meeting up. I ask if he wants to get a coffee or a drink. He writes back yes. Really?! He needs to suggest a day/time and place. Is he going to be this passive if I got him alone in a room? I’m sorry. That’s what I’m thinking.
“A former female friend was once on an app and disillusioned with the poor level of chat the men had. ”
OMG! It’s terrible. I had two who would just answer whatever question I posed. And that was it. Like I was interviewing them! No effort to expand the conversation or ask me anything, and they had very little in their profiles so I had very little to draw on and talk about.
There are profiles where the only thing in it is: Just ask. Or, my favorite: Just hit me up. (!)
“I’d say stuff like “Ok, tell me something interesting about yourself” and if they gave a predictable answer like “I work out” write back and say “no, I said something interesting”. Most of them ducked out then.”
Yes. That sounds about right. Sometimes that’s literally almost all there is in the profile. That they workout! How long can we talk about that?
“I don’t know how much people still use pre-messaging that way.”
Well, I’m a newbie on this. So far it’s been a lot of messaging. Three have suggested meeting up, including the young one I wrote about above. With the second, we had plans and I needed to reschedule; he stopped responding in the middle of the real-time conversation to reschedule and FOUR DAYS LATER reappeared and just said “hey.” I didn’t respond. The third asked to me to a movie and dinner, which I was leery about because that’s a hell of a long date for two people who’ve never met in person. And when I said yes, he said something like: We should make plans to do that. And then veered off into other random topics, which I thought was weird.
So this other one wants to have a phone call. Which is probably a good idea. We’ve actually been having a good conversation over messaging on the site. I’m running out of topics. 🙂 Should I mention limerence? “Hey, if we have sex, I’ll be obsessed with you for two years.” 🙂
“What is a ‘meetup’ (we probably have a different word for whatever it is here)?”
It’s a website. Meetup. And on it are social groups you can join. All kinds of things. Book clubs, movie groups, hiking groups, etc.
“But it has only been, what, a week? ”
Yes, but I want to knock this guy out of my head. I’m embarrassed to admit this but I was watching YouTube videos last night of people doing tarot card readings. “What is he thinking?” I’m losing my mind.
“What I mean is, if you go to five of these meetup things, you’re much more likely to meet someone than by going to one. ”
Yes, that’s true.
“But it’s tiring, right?”
Yes. And I can only make small talk for so long. Now, to be clear, some (not all) of them are women’s groups. I’m trying to get out in general.
“Why Snow didn’t like that answer was that she pointed out that I (or LO and I between us) might have spun so much of a web that it would NOT be possible for LO to pull out, even if on the surface I think it is.”
I mean, I don’t know as you haven’t really discussed your feelings for each other. I guess I look at it as … maybe it’s an fwb. (This is a metaphor.) And the man can tell the woman is starting to develop feelings. But he’s getting what he wants so he keeps it going. Is that selfish of him? Yes. Should he not have some sense of responsibility to her? I think so. But, on the other hand, is she not a grown person who is responsible for making her own decisions? Yes.
“But I also don’t think there would be any going back. The fact is, I haven’t wanted it to happen enough.”
What do you mean no going back? That you couldn’t be friends again later on when the feelings cooled down?
And you didn’t want it to happen enough … I’m not sure what you mean. You were afraid that her response would be, “Ok, I understand.” Versus disclosing she had simiilar feelings?
OR … do you like living in the ambiguity? (I think this is probably the case for most partnered limerents.)
“They both said they’d rather not have known if they believed their husbands could solve it. My answer based on all I know of my SO is that she would be the same as those two.”
Ok. I mean, yes, once you tell her, there’s no taking it back.
” The version where I don’t tell her allows me to keep my life much as it is. ”
Which is what most partnered limerents seem to want. I don’t want to mess up my life and I’ll cram the LO into as much of it as I I can, given the boundaries. So you won’t like me saying this … but no matter what you think of Sketchball … he was willing to jump over the cliff. (I’m not saying he was willing to risk because of deep feelings, to be clear. And, also, I meant to say I didn’t dislike all he did physically. Some of it I liked very much. But some of it I didn’t, and I saw a different side of his personality.)
“Hang on, let me just check the flight times…though I am not sure I could measure up to Adam’s dress sense or MJ’s eye contact.”
I think MJ has a few restraining orders out against him because of that eye contact. 🙂
“Oh my God yeah. Triggering!”
Why is it triggering?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFE5IVwfRa8
The very first part of the video. The way he’s looking at her. That’s not a friendship look. 🙂
[“You realize these younger models probably just think we’re going to have a short-term rodeo, right? 🙂”]
“Put them right 🙂”
I can’t do that. I have to dangle the poontang to keep them interested. 🙂
MJ,
“Did I just offend thee, Grand Ol’ Dame? A thousand apologies if I did. You know I’m only joking “Old Friend” (Or is it “Old Fiend?” 🤣)”
STOP PUTTING THE WORLD OLD IN FRONT OF EVERYTHING, you weasel! 🙂
“Perhaps I need a good chiding. I know you’ll be first in line to give me one. ”
I have a feeling there’d be several women in front of me. 🙂
“Calling you a “Broad” in any facet seems offensive to me imo, but maybe not..”
I don’t care about “broad.” Just stop calling me old.
” I don’t want to feel like I’m over 50 and guess I’m in straight denial over dwelling on the fact I actually am over 50.. Which should explain mostly why I levitate towards females 30 and below..”
Um. Yes. Also, you know … similar maturity levels. 🙂 C’mon! I had to get that one in. 🙂
“I worry because I’m not getting any younger and the dating market for men right now is God Awful. At any age.. I’m running out of time..”
Yep. That’s exactly how I feel.
“What you can know is I’m named after a Saint. 😇”
?
“Yes but the difference here is I’m not as old as her Dad, who is 60..”
But you COULD BE her dad. 🙂
“Besides, LF doesn’t mind older guys. Cool older guys.. Older guys mind you, that don’t disclose their feelings to her.. 😑
(Yes I will in fact be kicking myself in the a$$ for that one till my dying breath..)”
I’m glad you did. So you can stop wasting time on this woman.
“And there you go again reminding me why I need to go make a reservation at the Senior Center ”
Let me know when you’re going. We’ll get the early bird dinner, meatloaf special.
LaR and MJ,
[“I am still laughing about MJ and your exchange. I have some awkward family stuff to get through today, so I’m grateful”]
“Anything to help a Brother out. I totally expected that kind of reaction.. Glad to be of some help my Friend.. 🤣”
Are you taking credit for my joke? Good God, you’re insufferable. 🙂
Marcia,
“Here’s an example. One of the young ones … He writes back yes. Really?! He needs to suggest a day/time and place.”
Yeah that seems bizarre. Is this the one that wants the call?
The ones who say ‘just ask’ or ‘just hit me up’ either have no chat, or think their photo alone does the job better than their chat (that’s quite arrogant and shallow imo)
“That they workout! How long can we talk about that?”
🥱🥱🥱
“the second … he stopped responding in the middle of the real-time conversation to reschedule and FOUR DAYS LATER reappeared and just said “hey.” I didn’t respond.”
I wonder if he was juggling several options. The ‘hey’ is beyond bizarre communication. That sort of thing is why it galls me that I didn’t try harder to date more women when I was younger. So many men have *no clue* what to say or do! I used to feel overwhelmed by the competition for the popular girls and yet so many men have no chat.
“The third … when I said yes, he said something like: We should make plans to do that. And then veered off into other random topics, which I thought was weird.”
Yes, I agree, weird. Doesn’t want to seem too forward?
“I’m embarrassed to admit this but I was watching YouTube videos last night of people doing tarot card readings. “What is he thinking?” I’m losing my mind.”
If we’re doing embarrassing admissions … my arrival at LwL followed 4 months of looking at articles on these absolutely ridiculous sites in response to Google searches like “how do I know if my friend has a crush on me?”. There is one – you might know it, but if you don’t, I could tell you the name of it but really don’t want to send you off down the same rabbit hole. I could start with one article and still be there hours later on something like “1068 secret signs that ….”. Painful to remember. And I like to think I’m quite intelligent sometimes. But I looked at that stuff for months and only when somehow I got directed to LwL did I stop.
“Is that selfish of him? Yes. Should he not have some sense of responsibility to her? I think so. But, on the other hand, is she not a grown person who is responsible for making her own decisions? Yes.”
I don’t know how else to say this but there is stuff (very personal to her) that is not my place to say in a public forum. But trust me on the fact that if you knew it, you’d be able to make more sense of why she us happy with the way things are between us, and also about why I can’t just walk away for either selfish reasons or reasons connected to SO. It is more complicated than I can say, without that meaning that anything I have said is untruthful.
“What do you mean no going back? That you couldn’t be friends again later on when the feelings cooled down?”
I think so. I pushed cooling down as far as I felt I could without it becoming a permanent freeze.
“And you didn’t want it to happen enough … I’m not sure what you mean. You were afraid that her response would be, “Ok, I understand.” Versus disclosing she had similar feelings?”
I meant that I probably didn’t want enough to end the friendship. Even if I could see the sense in it intellectually, my feelings hadn’t caught up.
If she disclosed she had similar feelings, it might have felt temporarily good (validated that I didn’t imagine it) but beyond that moment it would have made the problem bigger (like in LiS or Speed’s stories here – I did not fancy getting to the point that either of those two did after disclosure).
“OR … do you like living in the ambiguity? (I think this is probably the case for most partnered limerents.)”
Not so much that I liked the ambiguity as that I liked LO being in my life.
“Which is what most partnered limerents seem to want. I don’t want to mess up my life and I’ll cram the LO into as much of it as I I can, given the boundaries.”
Fair assessment.
“So you won’t like me saying this … but no matter what you think of Sketchball … he was willing to jump over the cliff.”
That was what you wanted him to do. I don’t think it’s what LO has ever wanted me to do. But I don’t know for sure (once again). It is speculation.
“Why is it triggering?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFE5IVwfRa8
The very first part of the video. The way he’s looking at her. That’s not a friendship look. 🙂”
Come on, why do you think it’s triggering?! When I look at it, who do you think I see / analogise to?!
“I have to dangle the poontang to keep them interested. 🙂”
My search history just got more interesting 😀
MJ,
“I’m glad you did. So you can stop wasting time on this woman.”
I really wanted you and LF to work out, as I said consistently from the time you answered my first ever LwL yelp (see Marcia, he has a big heart even if he won’t admit it). I’m sad you two didn’t work out. But I have to now agree with Marcia. If your disclosure means you could stop the clock and not suffer more pain because of it, it’s a good outcome. Especially in light of other bits you have told us about her and her reactions.
Both of you,
“Are you taking credit for my joke? Good God, you’re insufferable. 🙂”
Will the pair of you just stop the foreplay and get on with it please? 🤣 Do you need someone to book a room?
“STOP PUTTING THE WORLD OLD IN FRONT OF EVERYTHING, you weasel! 🙂”
Marcia,
You literally call yourself “old” in this forum. I’ve seen you post that word, referring to yourself more than once. So I ran with it. If anything, I want you to stop referring to you (yourself) as “old..”
54 is not old. Keep repeating it.. Can you do that for your MJ??
“I have a feeling there’d be several women in front of me.”
Believe that.. Like LF, My Daughter, maybe even LO.. Not Sabrina tho.. 😂
“But you COULD BE her dad. 🙂”
This is true because she does need a good Dad like me to whip her into shape. But I’d rather she just call me “Daddy” instead.. 🤣
(You asked for that one, lol..)
“Are you taking credit for my joke? Good God, you’re insufferable. 🙂”
I am and I’ll keep taking a few more bows and dropping the mic.
You totally took the bait because I dangled it.. (Kinda like you dangling the poontang up there 👆🏻)(Wait. Did you really just say Dangling the poontang?Lmfao!! I learn from the best..)(Taking credit for ✌🏻)🤣
I knew exactly how you would react, so therefore I’m taking credit.. 🤣
I used to spend HOURS googling every night to find answers….I finally stopped when LO, well, when he disclosed and it wasn’t a mystery anymore. I think it must be a limerent thing!
And you know you can delete your search history, right? Lol
“This is true because she does need a good Dad like me to whip her into shape. But I’d rather she just call me “Daddy” instead.”
I am biting my tongue so hard right now…The double entendres are waving their hands at me….
“I really wanted you and LF to work out”
LaR,
At one point, I really wanted that too but I read her all wrong. And it’s not even like I hate her now or wish revenge. I’m just disappointed mostly by her reaction. I know I could’ve played my cards better. If anything I think it could have turned into a fwb thing but me throwing emotions into the matter probably made it cringe.
I can’t help it man.. She’s a good little Lutheran that goes to church every Sunday. (Yeah right MJ, like all her tats make that so obvious right??)
All good though Brother. I appreciate your support immensely as well as all those who ripped me a new one for thinking so illogical about her..
(I.E. my favorite Cheerleader Cordelia.. Why is she lurking in the weeds now??)
What I’m happy about most is she doesn’t make me hurt like LO did and it’s like a weight has lifted not worrying about how to make her happen. Sure I miss her. Think I’ll always miss her a little. She was really cool to hang with at work. I hope we can make up. But not because I want her now like I did. Whatever happens, happens. But I’m not rushing into anything or even expecting it..
Marcia,
“Yeah that seems bizarre. Is this the one that wants the call?”
No. Different person. The one who wanted the call … we talked and we’re meeting up in a few days.
So this other one .. .OMG … I’m going to age a year before we make a plan.
Him: Do you want to meet up?
Me: Yes. Would you like to go for coffee?
Him: Yeah I could meet up for coffee.
Me: What neighborhood do you live in?
Him: (he gives me cross streets). What about you?
Me: I give him cross streets.
Him: There are some places in the area.
WTH? PICK A PLACE AND A TIME! There are HOURS between these messages.
“The ones who say ‘just ask’ or ‘just hit me up’ either have no chat, or think their photo alone does the job better than their chat (that’s quite arrogant and shallow imo)”
I’ll be frank: I’ve not been bowled over by anyone’s photo. The one I’m meeting up with … I do think he’s kind of cute … but that’s about as much as I’ve felt.
[“That they workout! How long can we talk about that?”]
“🥱🥱🥱”
EXACTLY! And enough with the shirtless photos. It’s WEIRD.
“I wonder if he was juggling several options.”
That guy is a third one. He probably is juggling. But I still expect him to be courteous and answer in a timely manner.
” The ‘hey’ is beyond bizarre communication. ”
It is. He messaged again, asking if we were still meeting up. I thought: Maybe I should meet him, just to get a date under my belt. So I said yes and he said he’d think of a place … and then proceeded to fall off the planet again! I am NOT meeting him. He’s rude.
There’s a fourth one in there who I’m texting. We’re meeting up this week. He’s much younger. I think he’s thinking: Rodeo. I said we need to meet up to see if we even like each other. I’m not sure. I have to think about it.
“I used to feel overwhelmed by the competition for the popular girls and yet so many men have no chat.”
Yes, agreed.
“Yes, I agree, weird. Doesn’t want to seem too forward?”
This is the one from above. The painful messenger. I’ve had guys giving me their phone number in the very first message on the site. That’s too forward. But … I’ve been chatting with this guy for a week.
“If we’re doing embarrassing admissions … my arrival at LwL followed 4 months of looking at articles on these absolutely ridiculous sites in response to Google searches like “how do I know if my friend has a crush on me?”. ”
Yeah, I’ve looked up stuff like that. “The Ten Biggest Signs of Attraction.” 🙂
“There is one – you might know it, but if you don’t, I could tell you the name of it but really don’t want to send you off down the same rabbit hole.”
I’m already in the rabbit hole. 🙂
I could start with one article and still be there hours later on something like “1068 secret signs that ….”.
Yes. Same.
“Painful to remember. And I like to think I’m quite intelligent sometimes. ”
I think of myself the same way. Intelligent and not crazy. But I’m doing weird shit now!
“It is more complicated than I can say, without that meaning that anything I have said is untruthful.”
Ok. I won’t press.
“(like in LiS or Speed’s stories here – I did not fancy getting to the point that either of those two did after disclosure).”
I don’t remember LiS’s story. Speed’s … he disclosed and she didn’t feel the same way … and now he has to work with her ? That would be awkward.
“That was what you wanted him to do.”
Most definitely. But, and I know this is my viewpoint alone, but the only way for a partnered man to prove to me, definitively, his interest … is … to lay it down. Otherwise, it’s just words. Disclosure is just words. (To be clear, I’m not implying the sex necessarily means all that much.)
“Come on, why do you think it’s triggering?! When I look at it, who do you think I see / analogise to?!”
OOKKKKAAAYYY. 🙂
[“I have to dangle the poontang to keep them interested. 🙂”]
“My search history just got more interesting 😀”
Lol
“I really wanted you and LF to work out, as I said consistently from the time you answered my first ever LwL yelp (see Marcia, he has a big heart even if he won’t admit it).”
I never said he didn’t have a big heart. It’s other parts of him I worry about. 🙂
“Will the pair of you just stop the foreplay and get on with it please? 🤣 Do you need someone to book a room?”
MJ’s too old for me. You didn’t think Sketchball was my age, did you? 🙂
“I want you to stop referring to you (yourself) as “old..”
54 is not old. Keep repeating it.. Can you do that for your MJ??”
Yes, chef. 🙂
” But I’d rather she just call me “Daddy” instead.. 🤣
(You asked for that one, lol..)”
That was below your abilities. Actually … maybe it wasn’t. 🙂
“I am and I’ll keep taking a few more bows and dropping the mic.
You totally took the bait because I dangled it..”
Damn you. 🙂
“Wait. Did you really just say Dangling the poontang?”
Sho nuff. 🙂
“If anything I think it could have turned into a fwb thing but me throwing emotions into the matter probably made it cringe.”
All kidding aside … and I’m not trying to be harsh with you, but I don’t see this happening. She dodged your requests to meet up outside of work.
One thing I like about this guy I had the phone call with: He’s moving things along. We messaged a few days on the site, he suggested a phone call, we had the phone call, and he asked me out on the call. Provided things all work out, it’ll be slightly over a week once we meet up that we started talking.
So whatever new person you have your eye on … make a move asap. Don’t wait months like you did with LF. So you know sooner rather than later.
The above message is for LaR and MJ.
Marcia,
(Whoa, this is some scrolling!)
Ha, I appreciate your comment about dangling the whatchamacallit! (I’m such a prude with my vocabulary!) But after my last bout of online dating, I think I learned one thing. You don’t need to dangle anything – most will already assume that it’s on the table no matter how you deny it. In fact, if I were to do it again, I would be very upfront and specific about what I want, and also be very picky as well. The latter of which I already was.
Because there are plenty people who will approach basically anyone. (You can’t get rid of those so just ignore them.) And you only want the one (or few) who is right for you. I.e. Don’t try to attract or please everyone, heck, show a couple of your “worst” sides to deter the wrong ones who won’t accept them.
I had a few who only seemed to want to chit chat. But the moment they only answered my question, and didn’t come up with a question of their own, I stopped responding. I mean, if there’s nothing to respond to…
So this other one .. .OMG … I’m going to age a year before we make a plan.
Him: Do you want to meet up?
Me: Yes. Would you like to go for coffee?
Him: Yeah I could meet up for coffee.
@Marcia,
I could and will meet up with you for coffee. I’m always available for coffee. I love coffee. Can I ask you out for coffee? Would you even like to go out with me for coffee? Do you like Dunkin coffee?Starbucks coffee? Biggby coffee?? BS generic coffee?? I like coffee. Infact I love coffee. You know coffee is delicious when it’s super hot or over ice. Nobody ever asks me out for coffee. Nobody ever wants to meet me for coffee. All I want is a freakin cup of coffee and I can’t seem to ever get a cup of coffee. I’m jealous other people are getting coffee and I’m not. Ask me out for coffee and you’ll get a big fat yes.
Did I tell you I like coffee?? 🤣🤣
Marcia,
I’ll just respond to a couple of bits now and more later.
“Ok. I won’t press.”
I much appreciate that. I also don’t want it to seem like I’m using that to duck the difficult questions, so I’ll give just a little more. It relates to sensitive disclosures made to me about the past. Both the nature of the disclosures, and the fact she’s picked me as one of only a very few people to make them to, have a bearing now – on why ‘we are what we are’ and might be OK with that, and why both people might now find it hard to just walk for any more selfish reason.
What that all shouldn’t alter in how you perceive my LE / things I think you’ve always been right about in your interactions with me – 1. the fact that as man with SO, I have been (willfully) party to letting the relationship with LO get too emotionslly deep for what a partnered man should offer (this was never quite an ordinary platonic friendship and I used to try and kid myself with that fact); 2. The fact I was attracted / limerent – that’s almost fully independent from the above, except maybe throw a bit of rescue fantasy into it.
The details, I only learned *since* I was limerent. The way I acted *because* I was limerent probably positioned me to learn it too.
About LiS and Speedwagon’s stories. (If either of you are reading this, i hope it’s accurate enough, please correct any errors I make). Both were workplace LEs, both of them disclosed, both have said for different reasons that they wished they hadn’t disclosed.
Speed’s didn’t reciprocate (he thought she did at the time) and then he had about 2 more years limerent while working in close proximity (he was her boss), eventually killed it with LC, but said it was worse after disclosure.
LiS’s involved a mutual disclosure of feelings (so elephant in room fully recognised and acknowledged by both people) that both said went back some time. Both were married and they then had an EA that was still going on about 2 years in, when he last checked in here. I don’t think he had ever told his wife about LO. They just phoned each other at length or saw each other in person during work days. No PA but strong and admitted EA. I think these facts are about correct but sorry LiS if I made any errors in my recall of what you said.
Managing either of these scenarios seems worse to me than the current one I have of the elephant sat in the corner of the room – very much there, but quiet and not causing me hassle.
Serial,
Lol! “150 alleged signs that you can waste hours reading about before concluding that you still don’t have a clue if ….”
MJ,
You might look back and think there were ways you could have played it differently.
But at least by the disclosures you moved it beyond a stasis situation, which might have been needed for your own sanity?
It also let you stress-test the friendship. And by saying essentially “No, I can’t hack that” and pulling out, she seems to have basically failed the stress test. It might be better that you know that now than further down the line.
Did she ever find out that you knew what you did about her and coworker?
Marcia,
I replied to some of your last message above in this huge scrolling discussion
The other bit I want to reply on is about the online dating. That chat and behaviour from most of those men just has me hanging my head in despair.
I agree with Trifles’ advice to you, based on her very recent experience. If you have 4 men chatting and 3 are ringing alarm bells, just focus on the one who isn’t and forget the rest.
I can almost feel ypur restlesness but try and give this process time to find more suitable dates.
I would say something that irritates or is an amber light to you early on will rarely get better.
Trifles – could you detect these warning signs in people you chatted to pretty early on, or did they take a while to appear?
LaR,
(I hope this ends up in the right thread, it’s getting difficult to find the root.)
In hindsight, there were actually warning signs with two guys. Otherwise I was lucky – probably because I was picky about who I would match with.
The sign being that they both stopped chatting for about two days even though we had made plans for a date. I was traveling abroad at that time so I thought it was only natural. But next time that would ring the bells.
One being the chess player, who I met, and where the date was pretty bad. But nothing to mope around about – onward and upward! And the second one was a guy who was actually my most promising candidate. Who chatted and flirted with me for a record three (3!) weeks before we had a chance to meet (due to both of us traveling). In the end he ghosted me on the night before the date – as I was confirming our plans – twice! I really need to re-evaluate my judgement based on that one!
I didn’t really have experience of men just chatting with no plans to meet. Only 4 out of 13. I looked back, and I think one was offended because I didn’t continue a real time conversation late on a Saturday night. (He was my first match and I thought it would send the wrong signal 😜). In two cases they were decent guys with good chat – I assume they met someone else (and in the meanwhile I met someone else too, so it was all for the best). And one was quite verbose and decent, but it was going nowhere and I wasn’t that into him, so I ended it after he stopped asking questions.
Trifles,
“You don’t need to dangle anything – most will already assume that it’s on the table no matter how you deny it. ”
Well, the one I’m referring to … we discussed something short term. Very short term. So if I pull away the poonage, that would be it. 🙂 Although we do text a lot. I think he needs a friend. I don’t see much happening with him and I’m ok with that.
“I had a few who only seemed to want to chit chat. But the moment they only answered my question, and didn’t come up with a question of their own, I stopped responding. I mean, if there’s nothing to respond to…”
I umatched those guys after a few messages. If they weren’t making much of an effort to really have a conversation, I gave up.
I’m just trying to get on some dates for practice. I’m not really invested in the outcome. The bad chatter … he’s kind of a “dude.” Blue collar. Picture of him in his uniform with his name tag on it. I have this little fantasy of him having a big pickup truck and I’m driving it. 🙂 He answers “yah” for “yes.” I get a kick out of it. But if we make it on one date, it’ll be a miracle. I’m ok with that.
The one I talked to on the phone has already texted so that’s a good thing. He’s much different. Intelligent. Educated. Very PC.
I’m trying to do things differently this time. Instead of saying … oh, this guy should be playing it cool and waiting days to respond and why is he texting so much? He has no game. Actually, that’s what you want. Someone who’s in contact! I don’t mean besieging you but making an effort. Instead of me waiting by the phone for the moron who gives me crumbs.
I am worried there’ll be low attraction with accessible guys … because, you know … I’m crazy. 🙂
MJ,
“Nobody ever asks me out for coffee. Nobody ever wants to meet me for coffee. All I want is a freakin cup of coffee and I can’t seem to ever get a cup of coffee. I’m jealous other people are getting coffee and I’m not. Ask me out for coffee and you’ll get a big fat yes.”
We’ve talked about this before. You’ve dodged the question. WHO ARE YOU ASKING OUT FOR COFFEE? Other than LF, and I don’t count her.
LaR,
“Both the nature of the disclosures, and the fact she’s picked me as one of only a very few people to make them to, have a bearing now – on why ‘we are what we are’ and might be OK with that, and why both people might now find it hard to just walk for any more selfish reason.”
Ok. I’m not asking you to verify any of this, but you’re alluding to … some kind of abuse she suffered.
“The details, I only learned *since* I was limerent. The way I acted *because* I was limerent probably positioned me to learn it too.”
So … you’re being limerent opened the door for her to be able to talk to you about these deeper topics? Ah, you men and your rescue fantasy. All I have to do is be a damsel in distress. 🙂
“Speed’s didn’t reciprocate (he thought she did at the time) and then he had about 2 more years limerent while working in close proximity (he was her boss), eventually killed it with LC, but said it was worse after disclosure.”
I don’t want to speak for Speedwagon, but from the outside looking in, I think it was good to disclose. He got an answer. So then he could work at dismantling the limerence.
“No PA but strong and admitted EA. I think these facts are about correct but sorry LiS if I made any errors in my recall of what you said.”
I wonder how things are going for them now.
“Managing either of these scenarios seems worse to me than the current one I have of the elephant sat in the corner of the room – very much there, but quiet and not causing me hassle.”
You have to manage it however is effective for you.
I’m very different than you and I don’t have an SO. For me, it’s like: Are we going to do this or what? 🙂
“The other bit I want to reply on is about the online dating. That chat and behaviour from most of those men just has me hanging my head in despair.”
It’s bad.
I follow a dating coach online and he says a vast majority — maybe 60 percent (and these are people in what he calls the “post baby-making years” … so 40s to retirement age) … don’t know what they want. So some sex, some companionship but maybe not much else.
” If you have 4 men chatting and 3 are ringing alarm bells, just focus on the one who isn’t and forget the rest.”
I let the one go who kept falling out in the middle of making plans. The bad messager … I’m just playing it by ear. He has reached out a couple of times since yesterday. I’m not super invested. The one who texts … I might be ok with an extended throwdown. I’m not sure yet. I meet him this week. And, actually, the one who called is doing everything right. I have no complaints with him.
“I can almost feel your restlesness but try and give this process time to find more suitable dates.”
I’ve calmed down.
“I would say something that irritates or is an amber light to you early on will rarely get better.”
I agree. The one who keeps falling out in the middle of the scheduling conversations … he’s rude and inconsistent. No need to bother anymore.
Trifles,
“Otherwise I was lucky – probably because I was picky about who I would match with.”
So were you excited about some of these guys? My standard right now is … pictures aren’t awful. There’s something in the profile I like and can start a conversation about. If I had a higher standard, I wouldn’t be talking to anyone.
Marcia,
“So were you excited about some of these guys?”
Yes, I got kind of excited about the amber flag guys! *hangs head in shame, *tries not to rotfl. That’ll show you what excitement amounts to! Kind of like with limerence – if you always/usually develop limerence for the wrong people, you might start to look for other things beside the “glimmer”. Also I got kind of excited about the great banter with one guy, but then when he provided more pictures I realized I wouldn’t be physically into him. (I’m not apologizing for that.)
Also, the guy I’m dating now, I initially tried to weasel out of meeting him, and I was still unsure about him on our first date. I could tell he was into me and that he would try to kiss me at the end of the date. But for some reason that sent me into fight or flight mode. However, later I realized that there was something there and that I should meet him again. The second date also wasn’t great – I thought I was doing better by avoiding falling into the deep eye gazes that so unnerved me on the first date. But he took my gaze-dodging as rejection. For some reason we decided we would give it a third try – and the rest is history, as they say…
“Actually, that’s what you want. Someone who’s in contact! I don’t mean besieging you but making an effort.”
Yes, that’s what you want on these apps, because that’s just the way it works. If you don’t go for what you want, someone will get there first.
“I’m just trying to get on some dates for practice.” I think that’s a good idea. I also wanted to meet quickly and see right away if there’s compatibility or not, so I don’t waste time chatting on the app. Also, yes, meet the blue collar, meet the white collar, keep an open mind. Have fun! I’m glad you decided to try it.
Trifles,
“Kind of like with limerence – if you always/usually develop limerence for the wrong people, you might start to look for other things beside the “glimmer”. ”
Well, that’s what I’m trying to do. But it’s hard because I’m a chemistry junkie!
“Also I got kind of excited about the great banter with one guy, but then when he provided more pictures I realized I wouldn’t be physically into him. (I’m not apologizing for that.)”
Yeah, I mean, if you just can’t see it ever happening, I wouldn’t go on a date with the person. It’s really hard for me to tell much in a one-dimensional image. As I wrote, there haven’t been any pictures I looked at and thought: Wow. But I’m letting them like me first. I have liked a few of my own, but it seems to be better the other way around. Although the guy I talked to on the phone … I liked him. And the one I was supposed to go out with today who keeps disappearing mid-scheduling conversation … I liked him, too. Oh, he’s reappeared. We had a time set for today. Now he wants to reschedule for another day. I didn’t respond.
“Also, the guy I’m dating now, I initially tried to weasel out of meeting him, and I was still unsure about him on our first date. I could tell he was into me and that he would try to kiss me at the end of the date. ”
But why do they get to be into us right away … but we have to let them grow on us? I kind of resent that a little bit.
I want the jolt in the drawers, too. 🙂
“But for some reason that sent me into fight or flight mode. ”
So you didn’t intend to see him again after the first date?
“For some reason we decided we would give it a third try – and the rest is history, as they say…”
So by the third date, you were attracted to him?
“ Also, yes, meet the blue collar”
Ha! Now we’re talking about cars.
“Did she ever find out that you knew what you did about her and coworker?”
LaR,
No I never brought it up because I was already giving her the benefit of the doubt. She proved her worth by playing that card. Despite her “evil” side though, she’s actually really cool and fun to be around. So since I actually was getting to really liking her again at the time, I left it alone. It surely would have soured things way sooner if I had.
She almost got caught up in a lie to me about it one night because I walked up to her, she was in tears and so she started apologizing upon my asking what’s wrong? She told me her sister had just txtd her something really sad, but when I glanced down at her phone, I saw his name at the top of the screen, so it was all bs. Drama she didn’t want to talk to me about because she needed my orbiting and validation to make her feel better..
Whatever.. She can stay miserable.. And stay even more miserable with the Short King she got coming around her now.. Always another fool standing in her line..
Marcia,
“But it’s hard because I’m a chemistry junkie!”
Yep, me too. But you have to look at online dating differently. It’s like applying for a job (or for women, more like hiring for a job!). Kind of boring and structured – except when they surprise you by sending an explicit fantasy or two 🙈 – but you have to do it to get to the desired end result.
“Now he wants to reschedule for another day. I didn’t respond.”
I wouldn’t either. He’s fumbled the ball a few times already (probably busy looking at the cheerleaders). He’ll have to work really hard to score a goal now…
The one who wanted to have a phone call sounds promising though – that’s showing some effort!
“So you didn’t intend to see him again after the first date?”
I think no. I assumed i would be having a lot of first dates and this was only my second one. He wasn’t my usual type so I think it took a while to wrap my head around what I was thinking/feeling. But there was some interesting chemistry there on the first date, maybe just a little too intense from his side, for my taste.
“So by the third date, you were attracted to him?”
Actually, by the second date I was attracted to him. But I thought I had cracked how to handle the eye gazing so as to set the intensity to the right level. However, then the level was too low for him. Anyway, now I think he’s very cute and I can’t keep my hands off him. Go figure…
“But why do they get to be into us right away … but we have to let them grow on us?” Fair question! Maybe it’s easier for guys? Or it’s just easier for lots of other people besides me. I very rarely get that so I have to make myself work around it. It’s not always easy to tell if I will eventually come around or not. But I think it’s a good idea to give it two dates if everything else (conversation, compatibility) seems to be in place.
“But I’m letting them like me first. I have liked a few of my own, but it seems to be better the other way around.”
Unfortunately, that’s how it usually works for me too, irl as well. And that ties in with them getting to be the ones to be into us right away. For some reason (biological and/or societal) it has worked best for me when the men get the ‘jolt in the drawers first’ and chase.
Trifles,
“He’s fumbled the ball a few times already (probably busy looking at the cheerleaders). He’ll have to work really hard to score a goal now…”
I mean, I’m assuming he ‘s talking to other women, and he should. We haven’t even met yet. But that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be courteous to me and not disappear and blow me off and then reappear. I don’t like that. And if he’s already doing it before we’ve even met, it won’t get better.
“The one who wanted to have a phone call sounds promising though – that’s showing some effort!”
Yeah. We texted a bit the next day (the day after the call), which was nice.
“But there was some interesting chemistry there on the first date, maybe just a little too intense from his side, for my taste.”
What do you mean … “interesting” chemistry?
“Anyway, now I think he’s very cute and I can’t keep my hands off him. Go figure…”
That’s good. 🙂
“I very rarely get that so I have to make myself work around it. It’s not always easy to tell if I will eventually come around or not. But I think it’s a good idea to give it two dates if everything else (conversation, compatibility) seems to be in place.”
I’m the same. I very rarely get the jolt in the drawers. But it sure is nice when it happens. I mean, I don’t have to be knocked over, but is … “hey, this guy is pretty cute, let’s see what happens” too much to ask for?
“And that ties in with them getting to be the ones to be into us right away.”
I don’t think that’s fair. Do they want us to go out with them a second time if we feel no physical chemistry on the first date? Would you want a guy to out with you a second time if he felt no physical attraction? (Maybe there was was intellectual chemistry and/or emotional chemistry.)
” For some reason (biological and/or societal) it has worked best for me when the men get the ‘jolt in the drawers first’ and chase.”
I mean, I want them to chase. But I want to be riled up, too. 🙂
🎩 🌽,
“Ouch ❄️, you broke my 🚜 with your 🔨. What about the crops?”
I’m savoring a steamed 🌽, locally grown, not from Indonesia… 😝
Was the local 🌽 up to scratch?
Scratch? 🙄 Young and fresh, it eagerly scattered its kernels to the galaxy… 🌌
My Brother
I’m a bit off my rocker and here is Rose Pink Cadillac playing and I’m rom-com’ing you and LO (maybe LF). Take care my brother.
@Adam
Be careful tonight Brother. Don’t go and mess up a good thing up with Momma and saying something you’ll regret later on..
Btw, I wouldn’t consider LF in my scope at this point. Still on strict LC with her and it appears to be working. She might be missing me a little, but I don’t really care anymore.. She made the bed, now she can sleep in it..
And I couldn’t give a $#!+ less with who either..
Here’s a good for you about obsession. This is one of my favorites on LOs playlist.. Perhaps this is how Mother Marcia is feeling about one of her 4 current online love interests.. I have a feeling she’ll dig this.. 😆😆
Be Your Own Pet
“Erotomania”
https://youtu.be/wQ0s9OeqZZg?si=-ouiO0vw0lHNBEqh
Im singing this to Momma while she sleeps. We met online in 1998 and we both made each other mix tapes. This was the first song on her mix tape. I still love it.
When You Say Nothing At All — Allison Krause
https://youtu.be/1SCOimBo5tg?si=UbgnrGwszCd2JnVQ
I’m starting to think Dame Marcia is quite the looker and she’s just trying to play it off. She’s probably LwL’s Helen Miren. Ok Adam off to bed. You’ve said too much.
@Adam,
You’re gonna catch $#!+ from the Great Dame for using the word “Looker”
But I’ll help you out by one-upping that with a song.. 😄😁😆
Kim Carnes
“Looker”
https://youtu.be/Slvx82V1s-I?si=B2BBGVxmwwZNXeg5
#WereNotOld
I’m always in trouble with Dame Marcia. But thanks for the help. Dame Marcia is quite the lass no?
At least I can get on the very young and sweet Miss Norma’s good side with flattery. 😉
Adam,
Yes flattery will get you everywhere with her.
Just don’t make the Dame jealous. And don’t refer to her as “old” now either. I’m still feeling the pain from doing so.. 😫😂
Yeah I’m always trying to sweet talk Miss Norma. She’s got this old man twitterpated. I’s wager she’d make a good date.
Sir Adam,
“I’m starting to think Dame Marcia is quite the looker and she’s just trying to play it off. She’s probably LwL’s Helen Miren. ”
I’ll take the compliment. Because she knows what she’s doing. 🙂
“Ok Adam off to bed. You’ve said too much.”
You can always say more. 🙂
MJ,
“You’re gonna catch $#!+ from the Great Dame for using the word “Looker””
I think we’ve established his vocabulary is … umm … dated. 🙂
Adam,
“I’m always in trouble with Dame Marcia. But thanks for the help. Dame Marcia is quite the lass no?
At least I can get on the very young and sweet Miss Norma’s good side with flattery. 😉”
Who is Norma? Should I be jealous? Because I’m the only star in this town. 🙂
MJ,
“Just don’t make the Dame jealous. And don’t refer to her as “old” now either. I’m still feeling the pain from doing so.. 😫😂”
I’d slap you if you were in front of me. 🙂
Marcia,
Now you’re referring to me as Sir? That makes me feel old. It’s like when I go to a store and a young Woman refers to me as Sir or Mr. I feel like no, that’s what you call anybody else but me. I want to take you out for coffee and you’re not going to call me that if we do.. 😄
“You can always say more.”
Now I know what not to do.. 😊
“I’ll take the compliment. Because she knows what she’s doing.”
Yes but do you know what you’re doing with 4 dudes now in your orbit.?? You’re getting as pathetic as LF.. 🙂
“Who is Norma? Should I be jealous? Because I’m the only star in this town.”
So you say… 😂
What are you, living under a rock? He’s talking about Norma Desmond, from this forum. And why would you be jealous? You didn’t get that way when I was chatting it up with CallMeCordelia..
I see who your favorites are now.. 😉
“I’d slap you if you were in front of me.”
I’ll let you in on a little secret. I like to be spanked.. 😇
MJ,
“Now you’re referring to me as Sir?”
Yes. You called me dame so I called you sir. Like you’re been knighted! 🙂
” That makes me feel old. It’s like when I go to a store and a young Woman refers to me as Sir or Mr. I feel like no, that’s what you call anybody else but me. ”
I feel the same way about someone calling me “mam.” I hate it.
“I want to take you out for coffee and you’re not going to call me that if we do.. 😄”
I’ll call you whatever I damn well feel like calling you. 🙂
“Yes but do you know what you’re doing with 4 dudes now in your orbit.?? You’re getting as pathetic as LF.. 🙂”
Well, two have fallen out. One I didn’t respond to after he kept disappearing. One hasn’t responded to me. I messaged him 24 hours ago. He’s been flaky before so it’s probably best to let him go.
“What are you, living under a rock? He’s talking about Norma Desmond, from this forum. ”
Oh, duh! I thought you were referring to another Norma.
“I see who your favorites are now.. 😉”
My favorite is whoever is doing the most. 🙂
“I’ll let you in on a little secret. I like to be spanked.. 😇”
I’m shocked! 🙂
Reminds me of a Madonna song. “Hanky Panky.”
Some girls, they like candy
And others, they like to grind
I’ll settle for the back of your hand
Somewhere on my behind
I’ll refrain from posting the rest of the lyrics. You can look them up. 🙂
“Yes. You called me dame so I called you sir. Like you’re been knighted!”
I’m so touched. Thank you. You’re so kind to dumb animals.. 😉
“I’ll call you whatever I damn well feel like calling you.”
Yes Ma’am.. Whatever you say Ma’am.. 🤣🤣
“Well, two have fallen out. One I didn’t respond to after he kept disappearing. One hasn’t responded to me.”
So all 4 shut you out??
That’s crazy. Are you scaring them away with your domineering presence?? You asked Dude out for coffee. He said yes didn’t he?? Wow.. I’d never turn down coffee with the Great Dame. You’re my favorite Fiend.. (I almost called you Old Fiend 😂)
“Oh, duh! I thought you were referring to another Norma.”
See? Age is creeping up on you as we speak. I’ll sign you up for some Prevagen. Send me your address.. 🙂
“My favorite is whoever is doing the most.
Yeah, that’s not gonna be me. I’ll let Adam have the floor now. I’m too old for you and he wants to leave a good impression with the Ladies. I’m too crotchety to give a crap.. 😂
“I’ll settle for the back of your hand
Somewhere on my behind”
I’m gonna suggest to Sabrina that she should drop her own version of that one. Then perhaps her and I can act it out when we make the video.. Hot like that album cover.. Oh I can’t wait.. 😂
“Yeah, that’s not gonna be me. I’ll let Adam have the floor now. I’m too old for you and he wants to leave a good impression with the Ladies. I’m too crotchety to give a crap.. 😂”
To quote Charles Bukowksi —
“You boys can keep your virgins. Give me hot old women in highs heels with a$$es that forgot to get old.”
“What a woman wants is a reaction. What a man wants is a woman.”
I find I relate to Bokowski the older I get. His “problem” was that he rarely had a filter about the point he was trying to make. So people might find his words offensive. But he was just saying like it was. He is one of those cases where people don’t listen to message and look at the messenger only.
This being probably the most profound thing Bukowski wrote…
“We’re all going to die, all of us, what a circus? That alone should make us love each other but it doesn’t. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.”
I doubt I will ever make it to where you are brother. I have gotten where I don’t necessarily care about people’s opinion of me. I wear what I wear cause I want to and don’t care what others think. Or that my interactions with women are outdated. As long as the woman in question I am interacting with feels comfortable than that is all that matters.
Dame Marcia ….. Miss Norma, isn’t your competition. As sweet as that young lady is, I thought everyone knew who here turns my head.
MJ,
“I’m so touched. Thank you. You’re so kind to dumb animals.. 😉”
I have to be nice to those less fortunate. 🙂
“Yes Ma’am.. Whatever you say Ma’am.. 🤣🤣”
#RUDE 🙂
“So all 4 shut you out??”
No.
Young one is still texting.
One my age is still texting. Have dates with both of them later on this week. ALTHOUGH … the one my age just pulled the “oh, I’m just seeing your text …” this morning. We were texting last night … LIES! I could see he was on the dating site last night. Probably cruising for “O.B.s” Other bitches! You know how you do! (By “you,” I mean men. 🙂 )
Third one kept disappearing in the middle of making plans. Then rescheduled our tentative plans kind of last minute. I stopped responding.
Fourth one finally did respond last night. But I’m going to age a year before anything happens with this guy. So I’m kind of done with him.
A fifth one appeared. Messaged a couple of times on the site. We’ll see. From what I’ve been told by other women I know who do online dating, all of this is common. It is what it is. Can’t get too invested too early.
“That’s crazy. Are you scaring them away with your domineering presence??”
I’m actually very pleasant. They start acting wonky … I just fade away.
” You asked Dude out for coffee. He said yes didn’t he?? Wow.. I’d never turn down coffee with the Great Dame. You’re my favorite Fiend.. (I almost called you Old Fiend 😂)”
No, no. They ask me.
I only do too much if it’s someone I actually want. 🙂 I did a little too much with Sketchball but didn’t go off the deep end like I did with my LO.
“See? Age is creeping up on you as we speak. I’ll sign you up for some Prevagen. Send me your address.. 🙂”
I’m not giving your sketch ass my address. 🙂
” I’m too crotchety to give a crap.. 😂”
I don’t believe that for a minute.
“I’m gonna suggest to Sabrina that she should drop her own version of that one.”
She’s a lot of things, but being able to outdo Madonna ain’t one of them.
Adam,
“You boys can keep your virgins. Give me hot old women in highs heels with a$$es that forgot to get old.”
I like that one. I don’t understand the fascination with virgins. They don’t know what they’re doing. 🙂
““We’re all going to die, all of us, what a circus? That alone should make us love each other but it doesn’t. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.””
Very true.
“Dame Marcia ….. Miss Norma, isn’t your competition. As sweet as that young lady is, I thought everyone knew who here turns my head.”
Miss Lovisa?
Marcia,
I think we need to start a new thread here.
“His wife’s name is Celia. Julia is the woman he has a relationship with when he’s in his 30s. She’s Sebastian’s sister. “
I got mixed up here. I thought he had the marital tie with Sebastian’s sister, Julia, forgot who Celia was.
[“We take it for granted, tougher and apart is inevitable elements of life, so why feeling resentful about FATE” But it’s not fate. It’s a choice. Their choice. Just like my new, LO-lite. What he’s doing/how he’s treated me is a choice. ]
I was responding to your idea that platonic/romantic friends growing apart due to their life changes… with marriage, kids, etc.
Your new, LO-lite is not to be trusted! Sorry I sound harsh to him. I was brought to consider any words (in whatever light) are CHEAP and distrustful if they are not followed/backed up by concrete actions/deeds, however they’re small or subtle. When I gave potential friendship trials/tests, I watched how they acted/reacted in situations, not what they merely SAY (words alone can be very confusing.)
“Hook up with a woman. You wrote that Binoche is the only woman you’d hook up with. “
Oh, no. Not hook up with her role in “Damage”, perhaps in “Chocolat”.
” The tragedies are more moving. “
I guess I wanted or needed to be touched by tragedies, and to feel profound sorrow for fictional characters’s sufferings. Or perhaps I could resonate with their pains but was unable to express my own, so let them to express for me. It’s like I’d listen to/sinking into Operatic arias only when I was going through a grieving process. Other times, I could not stand listening to their “whining.”
“Some people aren’t all that expressive. “
So true! As an introvert, myself isn’t expressive at all in person — much, much fewer words than my rambling here. I feel more at easy in scribbling, and endless thoughts just flow out like water.
“Yes, once in her sole dance” Sole dance?
Yes, she had this 1 or 1.5 hour modern dance (in a very small theater) seamlessly and elegantly. I was totally captured. The whole show was just her performance, no one else.
[“another time in Harold Pinter’s play”Betrayal”.” That would be interesting. ]
Yes, but I couldn’t understand the play well in the theater so I read the play, word to word, afterwards.
“I also saw her sole abstract painting exhibit in French Consulate here.” Describe that. That sounds interesting, too. “
In one room of French Consulate, the walls are covered (almost no space between pieces) by her abstract painting, most of them are black and while, weave like lines and shades… she was not there, only her work.
“I just looked it up. I’d forgotten I’d seen the trailer before but never watched the movie. I’ll have to see it. “
It’s free on Tubi. The commentary of the woman character is evidently the author, so we get to hear how she felt when dealing with “Simple Passion”, evidently not that simple! It’s limerence when she thought it was just a harmless PA.
“I just watched the scene where Rupert Graves climbs through the window into James Wilby’s room. OMG, the way Graves is looking at Wilby. “
I’m going to watch it later today. Thanks for the recommendation.
“It’s so sad. At the end, he finally realizes the mistake he made in letting her go … but it’s too late. “
Those fictions could serve as a lesson for viewers, but people continue repeating the similar mistakes with fixed mentality, ideology, or cultural scripts.
“I love “The room with a view”. the book and movie.” I couldn’t get into the movie. I didn’t dislike like it, but it’s not one of my favorites. “
I just like Carter’s role, her feisty and rebellion, I could related to it well. Carter’s other characters also have vulnerability underneath despite the fearless rebellion. I like her in “the Heart of me”, sad.
“I like her a lot. Who’s the third?”
Isabelle Huppert. The strength and vulnerability in her characters. She’s quite French.
“I’ve done it a few times, thought it’s been a while. You come out of the appointment feeling like you fell into another dimension of space and time. It’s powerful.”
That’s the beauty of it — taking you out of the stressful reality for a while! When it’s done correctly, it’s very powerful. However only once a week is recommended, one’s own body needs to do its own energy work, like meditation, making Qi circulate better or break jammed pathways.
“What kinds of stuff did you take?”
I don’t take any herbs regularly. I mentioned once that when I found LO4.2 had a girlfriend, I determined to walk away and shot down my LE-like affection immediately but felt extremely sad. So my menstruation stopped for 4 months without any causes, which brought in other physical symptoms — I wanted to run into walls with my head.
Desperate, I randomly walked into a tiny herbal shop and found this old, very sweet Chinese doctor, charging $10 a consultation. He listened to me, asked the detailed questions, felt my pulse on both wrists, and gave me four bags of mixed fresh herbs to brew every evening. The very next day, the period came back — never had that kind of miracle with a bag of raw herbs!
Then he called me everyday to check my body’s reaction to the herbs. I went back to him every four days to have my pulse felt by him. Then he’d adjust the herb contents, always add or remove a couple of ingredients, to treat the root of my “dis-ease” — an extreme grief. After a month, he said I could be on my own to reduce overall stress leave though healthy diet, sleep, exercises…
“You were looking for your next challenge! “
I wasn’t thinking about the future at that moment but felt this depression crept in and remembered my thought of that moment between 3-4 pm, literally with the gown still on me. The whole campus felt a kind of surreal at that moment…. I had the diploma and 2 awards in my hand, but I really felt depressed and a kind of hollow inside. Of course, I could not talk about it with anyone around me.
“Once LO reciprocates, limerent’s limerence maybe gone. ” It actually happened to me. “
In hindsight, I think it might have happened to me with my SO. Of course, his four casual flings, found a month later, made the LE affection dissipate more without my conscious realization.
“But isn’t every LO a Phantom? Someone we’ve projected our stuff onto? Someone we’ve created in our heads?”
Only after coming to LwL, I could see that the Phantom phenomenon is not just unique to me. But Nisor suggested in my case, this Phantom came from my tough childhood. A huge chunk of my childhood is still lost (due to Mom’s one traumatic abusive incident), so I can’t tell for sure that this Phantom was clear in my head back then. It’s highly possible by logical deduction.
“See, I would have been the opposite. No response would have deterred me from sending any more emails. “
I understand, that’s a common reaction in most people. But for me, no response stimulates imagination, which I knew was a part of my mood “regulator” in my childhood and youth and a part of my personality. If one believes in his/her imagination, then it works; it’s a kind of like believing in a person god — the Phantom.
[“He later admitted that he knew it was very important to my healing to monologue to a totally open ear.” See … that’s seductive. He’s tapping into you emotionally.]
I did not see that way until you just pointed it out. It was admitted on a meeting (3 months before I found LwL) in which I told him I had separated my phantom with him (in a poem) and asked him to destroy all my monologues on his side. I hinted I knew the pet and he got offended but apologized for not trying hard to be a good friend. He said something like, “there is will, there is way”, trying again to keep me in the LE dynanic. I told you or someone else here, he’d never let go my LE for him, if we were still working in the same place.
“However, I was referring to my most recent full-blown LO. I talked to him often but not for very long at any given time. And we had little in common. I think we would have struggled to hold a dinner-length conversation. Chatting for 10 minutes at work is very different than going out on a date. “
Yes, I agree with you. But you couldn’t go out with him, relaxed on both sides, on an open date, because he’s married. So you didnt’ actually know for sure if you two could hold a dinner-length conversation. Then your LE mind might be stuck in a subconsious “what ifs…”. Was that the case?
“LO-lite … some emails. But most of the conversations were discussions of feelings and then flirting and talk of meeting up. There wasn’t a lot of “conversation” in getting to know each other. “
That’s the issue with those unavailable LOs. They probably felt “guilty” to go into deep conversations with an opposite sex coworker/friend, when there is SO in the picture.
“I don’t think he knew how I felt. He seemed surprised. I didn’t know on my end, either. How he felt. “
So neither of you leaked out anything emotional when chitchat interacting and flirting, until he suddenly disclosed? You could not feel at all his subtle LE for you beforehand?
“Of course, you’re one of INFPs here” What enneagram style are you? “
I vaguely remember I took the test once, but totally forgot what I was in enneagram style. I’ll try to take it again.
“Ok. Sigh. Now it’s just disappointment.”
Once you begin Stoic practice and gradually sink its principles into your mind, you would stop feeling disappointment. It’s catch-22.
Hope you have a nice Sunday! 🤗
Typo: “A huge chunk of my childhood MEMORY (before 7 yrs) is still lost”…
My cptsd therapist said that some children’s brain has an ability to “wipe out”/shut down extremely scary, upsetting, or horrific memories to avoid feeling lasting pains. Thus, those memories get buried deep, deep in the Unconscious, maybe triggered to merge in the future, or maybe never.
But body parts (nerves, neurons) still remember the impact of those traumas (one theory believes), and (somatic) therapists can only work with those “mysterious” impacts sometimes triggered by the similar events in adulthood.
1 second of a glance at a man or a woman can instinctively tell me whether I can trust him or her; and I can’t reason why.… As mentioned before last year, I’m very psychosomatic.
Here is perhaps another reason why my eyes always glimmered FIRST within 5 seconds at a total stranger LO when he was not aware of my existence….
Snow,
“I think we need to start a new thread here.”
Agreed! 🙂
“I got mixed up here. I thought he had the marital tie with Sebastian’s sister, Julia, forgot who Celia was.”
Julia wouldn’t/couldn’t marry him. She was divorced and Catholic.
“I was responding to your idea that platonic/romantic friends growing apart due to their life changes… with marriage, kids, etc.”
I was, too. It’s a choice who we give our time to.
“Sorry I sound harsh to him.”
That’s fine. I’d like you to feel free to be honest.
“I was brought to consider any words (in whatever light) are CHEAP and distrustful if they are not followed/backed up by concrete actions/deeds, however they’re small or subtle.”
Yes, I agree.
“Oh, no. Not hook up with her role in “Damage”, perhaps in “Chocolat”.”
Oh, yes. She was very charming in that. I also liked “Clouds of Sils Maria” and “The Truth” and “Let the Sunshine In.”
“I guess I wanted or needed to be touched by tragedies, and to feel profound sorrow for fictional characters’s sufferings. ”
It sounds corny, but I think a work of art should result in emotional catharsis. It’s hard for comedy to do that on a profound level.
“I feel more at easy in scribbling, and endless thoughts just flow out like water.”
So you’re better at expressing yourself in words?
“Yes, she had this 1 or 1.5 hour modern dance (in a very small theater) seamlessly and elegantly. I was totally captured. The whole show was just her performance, no one else.”
Oh, wow. I didn’t know she was a dancer, too.
“In one room of French Consulate, the walls are covered (almost no space between pieces) by her abstract painting, most of them are black and while, weave like lines and shades… she was not there, only her work.”
She paints, too? She’s very talented.
“It’s free on Tubi.”
I’ll have to check it out.
“I’m going to watch it later today. Thanks for the recommendation.”
I thought it was a very romantic movie.
“Those fictions could serve as a lesson for viewers, but people continue repeating the similar mistakes with fixed mentality, ideology, or cultural scripts.”
Do you mean they follow scripts instead of expressing their true feelings?
“I just like Carter’s role, her feisty and rebellion, I could related to it well.”
Oh, yes. I liked her in it. I like her as an actress.
“Isabelle Huppert. The strength and vulnerability in her characters. She’s quite French.”
I think the only thing I’ve seen her in was “Madame Bovary.” It’s hard for me to tell if she’s vulnerable because that is not a likeable character.
“However only once a week is recommended, one’s own body needs to do its own energy work, like meditation, making Qi circulate better or break jammed pathways.”
Ok
“Desperate, I randomly walked into a tiny herbal shop and found this old, very sweet Chinese doctor, charging $10 a consultation. He listened to me, asked the detailed questions, felt my pulse on both wrists, and gave me four bags of mixed fresh herbs to brew every evening. The very next day, the period came back — never had that kind of miracle with a bag of raw herbs!”
Oh, wow. That’s great. I’m of the mindset that we should try natural remedies like herbs or supplements first before medication (if possible).
“Then he called me everyday to check my body’s reaction to the herbs. I went back to him every four days to have my pulse felt by him. Then he’d adjust the herb contents, always add or remove a couple of ingredients, to treat the root of my “dis-ease” — an extreme grief. After a month, he said I could be on my own to reduce overall stress leave though healthy diet, sleep, exercises…”
That sounds like a great experience.
“The whole campus felt a kind of surreal at that moment…. ”
Because you knew your time there was done?
“In hindsight, I think it might have happened to me with my SO. Of course, his four casual flings, found a month later, made the LE affection dissipate more without my conscious realization.”
Did it happen gradually or all at once?
“A huge chunk of my childhood is still lost (due to Mom’s one traumatic abusive incident)”
You mean you can’t remember parts of it?
“He said something like, “there is will, there is way”, trying again to keep me in the LE dynanic. I told you or someone else here, he’d never let go my LE for him, if we were still working in the same place.”
I’m glad you’re not working with him anymore. The LE could have dragged on and on.
“So you didn’t actually know for sure if you two could hold a dinner-length conversation. ”
Well, we just didn’t have a ton in common. The times I did try to talk to him about anything other than the most surface topics, he seemed uncomfortable (with a few exceptions).
“Then your LE mind might be stuck in a subconscious “what ifs…”. Was that the case?”
Do you mean … what if he wasn’t married?
“That’s the issue with those unavailable LOs. They probably felt “guilty” to go into deep conversations with an opposite sex coworker/friend, when there is SO in the picture.”
LO-lite got a little chatty sometimes. Personal stuff.
“So neither of you leaked out anything emotional when chitchat interacting and flirting, until he suddenly disclosed?”
Not really enough to take any of it seriously.
“You could not feel at all his subtle LE for you beforehand?”
No. And I don’t know that he is limerent for me. I think he likes me as a person. And he’s into me physically.
“I vaguely remember I took the test once, but totally forgot what I was in enneagram style. I’ll try to take it again.”
I’d be curious what yours is. I’ll withhold what mine is until you take the quiz.
“My cptsd therapist said that some children’s brain has an ability to “wipe out”/shut down extremely scary, upsetting, or horrific memories to avoid feeling lasting pains. Thus, those memories get buried deep, deep in the Unconscious, maybe triggered to merge in the future, or maybe never.”
I have some of that. There are chunks of my childhood that I don’t remember.
“and (somatic) therapists can only work with those “mysterious” impacts sometimes triggered by the similar events in adulthood.”
I’m not sure what you mean.
“1 second of a glance at a man or a woman can instinctively tell me whether I can trust him or her; and I can’t reason why.… As mentioned before last year, I’m very psychosomatic.”
You can feel it in your body?
Marcia,
“I was, too. It’s a choice who we give our time to.”
But it’s understandable for some choice, since our friends need/want sexual partner or kids. And then that TIME! Time can change anything, making rocks turning to pebbles and sand… how could platonic friendship compete with time ⁉️
That’s why I took some studies on Tibetan Buddhism, one of its 4 major doctrines is: nothing is permanent / everything is impermanent. But knowing and accepting it doesn’t take pains away. It gives me quite heartaches each time I think of things/people I’ve already “lost” — moving to another place or lost close contact.
“Yes, I agree.”
I still follow this ethics/virtue — once I make statement (even tiny) that I would do or not do something, I’d stick to it. If I know there is 1% of chance that I may be unable to follow through, then I don’t say anything but still go ahead to pursue it. (Dad almost hammered this into my head) Most friends did/do not believe me, but I did/do it for myself, like I took oath for myself.
Imagine what would one feel like to cheating yourself? This is one part of Inner Strength I was emphasize in my previous posts. If one breaks an oath to oneself, then s/he would look down upon themselves, then self-confidence would be reduced. That’s COO kind of philosophical—psychology I learned since young.
“Oh, yes. She was very charming in that. I also liked “Clouds of Sils Maria” and “The Truth” and “Let the Sunshine In.”
Yes, I like “clouds of Sils Maria” and “Let the Sunshine in” very much! Haven’t seen “the Truth” yet. This LE took so much of my time and energy away from my hobbies in books and films.
“It sounds corny, but I think a work of art should result in emotional catharsis. It’s hard for comedy to do that on a profound level.”
It does? But tragedies shake one’s mind, heart and even soul, making a grayish existence felt more colorful for a day or two or longer. Comedy doesn’t have that effect.
“So you’re better at expressing yourself in words?”
Haven’t you figured it out after the “verbose”, never-ending “War and Peace” chapters, when I first landed in LwL? My mind has time and much easiness to think and reflect when typing, while listeners aren’t in front of me waiting for responses.
The true story goes that Proust and Jame Joyce shared one horse carriage going home after a play, they exchanged three polite sentences about something trivial. They both had heard of each other’s name/fame before that show. One would think/imagine they could chat their head off for days just by discussing that play they both saw. Nope!
“Oh, wow. I didn’t know she was a dancer, too.”
A passionate and energetic dancer!
“She paints, too? She’s very talented.”
She’s quite known for her painting skills.
“It’s free on Tubi.”
I’ll have to check it out.”
For some reasons, I don’t feel the actress if French enough.
“I thought it was a very romantic movie.”
I watched it yesterday and liked its Englishness very much. It’s so sad for Grant to live in that nonexistent “marriage”, and his giggly wife doesn’t even mind! (She would have to find a lover if she’s indeed a woman!)
“Do you mean they follow scripts instead of expressing their true feelings?”
Yes, that’s what I meant, at the price of hurting themselves and others. Anyone who strictly follows cultural script / ideologies would end up like Hopkins character. And it’s often too late when they realize it. The viewers/readers of such a movie/book should/could learn a lesson for their own life.
“Oh, yes. I liked her in it. I like her as an actress.”
I have no idea who she is off the screen. I almost never read about actors/actresses/celebrity’s personal life or gossips — a total waste of my time!
“I think the only thing I’ve seen her in was “Madame Bovary.” It’s hard for me to tell if she’s vulnerable because that is not a likeable character.”
“Madame Bowery” is first of her motives I saw. I like her in “Piano Teacher”, “the promised life”, “things to come” — a powerful role. (recommend it)
“Oh, wow. That’s great. I’m of the mindset that we should try natural remedies like herbs or supplements first before medication (if possible).”
Wow, I didn’t know you pro natural remedies! (last year you sounded very rational; a very logical mind usually refuses to believe in anything without scientific data) Now, we’re on the same team again, as INFP friends!
Sometimes I take synthetic Chinese herbs before any serious symptoms develops (e.g. for canker sores). My body is very sensitive to Western synthetic pills — having tons of negative side effects. So I avoid them at all cost!
“The whole campus felt a kind of surreal at that moment…. ”
Because you knew your time there was done?”
I guess so, but not sure. Every time I achieved a big goal, I’d feel this kind of “loss” or “void” inside. Then I’d “frantically” looked for new goals to focus on — it IS (I’m certain now) a form/mechanism to run away from our inner unresolved “stuff”, as you put it.
I spent most of my life chasing some goals of achievements (based on cultural scripts) one after another (not much in relationship — am too fatalistic) to run away from unrecognized inner “stuff”! When I reached my goals, I did not feel fulfillment, but a sense of “loss” or surreal, because the “stuff “ was still there. Then, I continued the chase, in order to avoid feeling empty inside.
Nowadays, I spend my days as if floating on a cloud, my last bit of inner “stuff” was FINALLY gone (you read it here) a couple of months ago. It’s the most SIGNIFICANT “incident” ever happened in my entire life!
I knew it right away, but waited to see if it was true or my delusion… So far, it IS still true. That lifetime sense of “longing” or a pressure deeply sat inside my chest has gone. So I’m very content and relaxed where I AM — no inner baggage anymore. I have some specific stresses here and there, but not this ancient unknown “stuff” stuck in the soul… I feel I have much more Agape 🧡 to give nowadays…
“Did it happen gradually or all at once?
You mean LE for SO? The heat died very soon even before I learned about 4 flings. There was a couple of small incidents (unknown previously) that illustrated important flaws in his personality: I felt a bucket of cold water being dumped on my head on the 2nd evening we moved in together… Until you live with somebody on a daily basis, there would ALWAYS be something unknown to you but habitual to him/her — both positive and negative.
“You mean you can’t remember parts of it?”
Yes. I can remember things beforehand and afterwards, but not the stuff related to the traumas. I’ll tell you this particular trauma later.
“Well, we just didn’t have a ton in common. The times I did try to talk to him about anything other than the most surface topics, he seemed uncomfortable (with a few exceptions).”
Don’t you think that’s because he’s aware that he’s not supposed to go deeper with you, therefore the discomfort arose?
“Do you mean … what if he wasn’t married?”
Yes. If unmarried, he could open up himself more and you’d perhaps find more common, shared stuff between you two?
“LO-lite got a little chatty sometimes. Personal stuff.”
His sense of boundaries sounds not strong, I guess.
“No. And I don’t know that he is limerent for me. I think he likes me as a person. And he’s into me physically.”
It sounds like that. He wants an emotional and physical intimacy with you, so disclosed. Yet, he backed up because of the morality boundary he is still quite clear about.
“I’d be curious what yours is. I’ll withhold what mine is until you take the quiz.”
Okay, I’ll let you know.
“I have some of that. There are chunks of my childhood that I don’t remember.”
Mine would be “wiped out” instantly on the onsite. Usually I passed out (all happened before 8), then memories were gone, until today!
[“and (somatic) therapists can only work with those “mysterious” impacts sometimes triggered by the similar events in adulthood.”
I’m not sure what you mean.]
That’s what a trained Somatic therapist does for their cptsd clients — to release/reduce the impact of traumas though very light hand touch (touching meridian pathways) or energy touch — leaving their hand about half inch (or less) above your skin. It’s not massage at all. I had a lady done that to me, she never touched my skin, but my body could trace her very slow, hand movement. Normally insurance does not pay for somatic therapy.
“You can feel it in your body?”
In my whole system! Not sure from which part. That’s kind of “safety” I previously spoke with you about. It’s not that they could be murders or “poor” in bedroom, but they’re not trustable. For male, I often saw a “predator glance” (primal drive?), however subtle or fast it was. Then, my face would naturally freeze like 🧊 to them — thus my handle name ❄️. Inside? I can “melt” you if I want and try…🐦🔥
Snow,
” how could platonic friendship compete with time ⁉️”
I suppose it can’t. It’s a secondary relationship. Which is why I will never get close enough in another friendship again in which I am in any way dependent. I can’t do it.
“That’s why I took some studies on Tibetan Buddhism, one of its 4 major doctrines is: nothing is permanent / everything is impermanent.”
Well, yes and no. People don’t think of familial relationships, for example, as impermanent. I mean, one person may die first, but you wouldn’t slowly fade away from your mother for several years because you are busy.
“It gives me quite heartaches each time I think of things/people I’ve already “lost” — moving to another place or lost close contact.”
Me, too.
“I still follow this ethics/virtue — once I make statement (even tiny) that I would do or not do something, I’d stick to it. ”
I think that’s a good quality to have. When I was younger, I was very mercurial. If I said yes to doing something and didn’t feel like doing it on the day of, I’d cancel. It was rude.
“Yes, I like “clouds of Sils Maria” and “Let the Sunshine in” very much! ”
Me, too.
“Haven’t seen “the Truth” yet. ”
It stars Binoche as the daughter of Catherine DeNeuve, who plays a famous French actress who’s just written her memoirs. Binoche is upset that DeNeuve describes her childhood and how she was as a mother as very different than Binoche remembers. It’s an interesting mother-daughter dynamic.
“But tragedies shake one’s mind, heart and even soul, making a grayish existence felt more colorful for a day or two or longer. Comedy doesn’t have that effect.”
I’m agreeing with you.
“Haven’t you figured it out after the “verbose”, never-ending “War and Peace” chapters”
I think I wrote that to Sammy. 🙂
“The true story goes that Proust and Jame Joyce shared one horse carriage going home after a play, they exchanged three polite sentences about something trivial. They both had heard of each other’s name/fame before that show. One would think/imagine they could chat their head off for days just by discussing that play they both saw. Nope!”
That doesn’t surprise me. Artists often give most of themselves to their work, but one-on-one, they’re bland or uncommunicative.
“For some reasons, I don’t feel the actress if French enough.”
What do you mean? Not sophisticated enough?
“It’s so sad for Grant to live in that nonexistent “marriage”, and his giggly wife doesn’t even mind! ”
That scene where Grant breaks it off with Wilby and Wilby is so upset … breaks my heart.
” And it’s often too late when they realize it. The viewers/readers of such a movie/book should/could learn a lesson for their own life.”
I just watched it again over the weekend. What’s really sad is that, when he’s sees her 20 years later, he’s actually able to be more open with her. But it’s too late.
“I almost never read about actors/actresses/celebrity’s personal life or gossips — a total waste of my time!”
Oh, I do. I love gossip. 🙂
“Wow, I didn’t know you pro natural remedies! (last year you sounded very rational; a very logical mind usually refuses to believe in anything without scientific data) Now, we’re on the same team again, as INFP friends!”
I abhor Western medicine and the impersonal, conveyor-belt treatment doctors give you at appointments.
There’s a part of me that is very rational but another that is progressive and open to new ideas/cultures/ways of doing things. I also like to try things that p*ss off the establishment. 🙂
“Sometimes I take synthetic Chinese herbs before any serious symptoms develops (e.g. for canker sores).”
I get those, too. What do you take?
“My body is very sensitive to Western synthetic pills — having tons of negative side effects. So I avoid them at all cost!”
And that’s what Western doctors so rarely tell you — all medication has side effects!
“Every time I achieved a big goal, I’d feel this kind of “loss” or “void” inside. Then I’d “frantically” looked for new goals to focus on — it IS (I’m certain now) a form/mechanism to run away from our inner unresolved “stuff”, as you put it.”
I understand. We live in a culture of “busyness.” “I’m so busy …” I think it’s in part a way of avoiding confronting the self or one’s own dissatisfaction.
“When I reached my goals, I did not feel fulfillment, but a sense of “loss” or surreal, because the “stuff “ was still there. Then, I continued the chase, in order to avoid feeling empty inside.”
In a way, that’s what limerence is. An escape from dealing with one’s stuff. A focus outwardly on someone else.
“That lifetime sense of “longing” or a pressure deeply sat inside my chest has gone. ”
I completely understand this feeling. For me it’s longing and a sense of mourning something, only I don’t know what it is.
“So I’m very content and relaxed where I AM ”
So no more longing? That sounds wonderful.
“You mean LE for SO?”
Yes
“The heat died very soon even before I learned about 4 flings. ”
Yes, the heat. The heat in my LE … with the LO who became a boyfriend … that died. It’s hard for me to say if it happened gradually or overnight. Because I didn’t see him for a while. And when I saw him again, the LE had lessened about 75%.
“I felt a bucket of cold water being dumped on my head on the 2nd evening we moved in together… Until you live with somebody on a daily basis, there would ALWAYS be something unknown to you but habitual to him/her — both positive and negative.”
Ha! I knew exactly what you’re talking about. I call it being thrown onto the cold, hard pavement of reality.
“Yes. I can remember things beforehand and afterwards, but not the stuff related to the traumas. I’ll tell you this particular trauma later.”
So it was a particular traumatic event you blocked out?
With me, it’s chunks of time. Other relatives will say, “Do you remember when blah, blah, blah happened …?” And I can’t remember it. (I don’t mean I can’t remember anything about those periods of time, though.)
“Don’t you think that’s because he’s aware that he’s not supposed to go deeper with you, therefore the discomfort arose?”
Possibly. Or he just wasn’t that deep. I could never tell.
“If unmarried, he could open up himself more and you’d perhaps find more common, shared stuff between you two?”
Not really. This is where compatibility comes in. I don’t think we were all that compatible as people.
“His sense of boundaries sounds not strong, I guess.”
Well, I’ve had other co-workers tell me personal stuff. Sometimes you develop some kind of friendship with people.
“It sounds like that. He wants an emotional and physical intimacy with you, so disclosed.”
Well, he didn’t disclose he was in love with me or anything.
“Mine would be “wiped out” instantly on the onsite. Usually I passed out (all happened before 8), then memories were gone, until today!”
I’m not sure what you mean. All the trauma happened before you were 8? And after the trauma you had no memories until now?
“That’s what a trained Somatic therapist does for their cptsd clients — to release/reduce the impact of traumas though very light hand touch (touching meridian pathways) or energy touch — leaving their hand about half inch (or less) above your skin.”
I’ve done something like this. Energy healing. It’s very powerful.
“I had a lady done that to me, she never touched my skin, but my body could trace her very slow, hand movement. ”
I couldn’t feel the practitioner’s hand movement but man, oh man, did she pull up some stuff. I was balling.
“For male, I often saw a “predator glance” (primal drive?), however subtle or fast it was. ”
Oh, I kind of dig that. Depends on who’s doing the glancing, of course. Sometimes it’s creepy. Sometimes it’s flattering. Sometimes it’s electrifying, coming from the right person.
Marcia,
Here I’m for Dame Marcia’s interview again… before I get myself totally “deprogrammed” by LwL… 😊
”I suppose it can’t. It’s a secondary relationship. Which is why I will never get close enough in another friendship again in which I am in any way dependent. I can’t do it. “
Hmmm… I don’t feel I could use the word “dependent” in all my past close friendship, despite I sometime feel deeply sad that they all live far away from me and we only connect during holidays or on each other’s birthdays…
But if we hold back for the fear of the future loss, then we won’t feel fulfilled in the making/building a friendship, right? Didn’t we agree, the quality of a journey itself counts more than possible outcomes⁉️. The ultimate outcome is that we all die, so we should not strive for anything?
“Well, yes and no. People don’t think of familial relationships, for example, as impermanent. I mean, one person may die first, but you wouldn’t slowly fade away from your mother for several years because you are busy. “
No, not superficially on the blood tie, but mentally and emotionally, it is never the same as we were in childhood, youth, or even last year. Our mental states, almost for anything, is impermanent, and ALWAYS evolving, going either direction — better or worse, sometimes at a daily basis.
“I think that’s a good quality to have. When I was younger, I was very mercurial. If I said yes to doing something and didn’t feel like doing it on the day of, I’d cancel. It was rude. “
As I’m speaking with you now, I can’t remember I was ever “mercurial” (a new word for me). I can’t remember when I began watching whether I’d follow my words. If I could ever say to Mom, “I didn’t feel like doing something on the day of….“, you’d bid more of her slaps would land on my face.
As far as I remember, I never stood up a date/meeting with anyone and was almost always earlier (if no traffic) to arrive, as if it were to catch a train or get to a class (In COO, girls are supposed to be 5-10 mins late for a date, so not to show her eagerness). I do remember feeling anxious if I let other side wait or bad if I had to cancel due to a sudden illness or an urgent event. I worried a lot to make other side, even just regular friends, feeling disappointed. My COO friends were the same way to me and others.
It’s always this sense, “if you’ve said it, then do it!” Otherwise, you’d be looked down upon (even just by yourself), and “lose face”! Losing/keeping FACE (I think I said before) was/is the ONLY DEAL between birth and death in COO’s entire history, as a 19th century missionary summarized after working there. When I heard of it, I nodded my head! — it makes a sense literally for all matters over there!
There is still a cultural “center” (by poet W.B. Yeats) that has made the only ancient civilization survived and still going… Sometimes it is simply stupid to care so about FACE (not same as honor) so much. I never cared about it that much, which made me a cultural rebel — read too much Western classical/romantic literature earlier on, but I DO care “FACE” in some matters, such as keeping my word, regardless if involved others care about it or not. Otherwise, it would hurt my self-esteem.
“It stars Binoche as the daughter of Catherine DeNeuve, who plays a famous French actress who’s just written her memoirs. Binoche is upset that DeNeuve describes her childhood and how she was as a mother as very different than Binoche remembers. It’s an interesting mother-daughter dynamic. “
That sounds very interesting! I’m going to check it out. Thanks for telling me the plot.
“I think I wrote that to Sammy. “
Yeah, that was the first time I heard of the word and looked it up back in the Fall of 2023. I thought: I’m not verbose in words (can’t be as ESL speaker), but I might be “verbose” in thoughts/sentiments (do you have such a word?). If an idea, old or new, was mentioned or brought to conversation or reading, I’d naturally get 5 or more associated ideas and wandered down the road until I forcefully pulled myself back to the original topic. That’s one reason I can’t read books fast — get distracted too easily by such an mind wandering…
“That doesn’t surprise me. Artists often give most of themselves to their work, but one-on-one, they’re bland or uncommunicative. “
That’s why oral communication in person always feels “shallow” to me (to all introverts perhaps?), one can’t get those written words out of mouth instantly and smoothly. As I chat with you here, I rarely pause(d), words just flow out, faster than I can type, god knows from where… I absolutely ENJOY it, making me ALIVE, never lonely❗️ It could be you on the other side, or anyone, but NOT a journal book! That’s monologue’s power — there is an audience/ear there❗️
“What do you mean? Not sophisticated enough?”
She’s not as striking or mysterious as other known French actress, but I like her ordinariness — like a woman we bump in the street, you know what I mean. I was repulsed by her lover, the Russian diplomat — he looked so aloof and uncaring. It’s a French film selection for Cannes 2020.
“That scene where Grant breaks it off with Wilby and Wilby is so upset … breaks my heart.”
It’s indeed very sad! There are hundreds of this kind of heartbreaking stories still happening in societies where gay/lesbian union is forbidden. Our individual human life is full of tragedies, aside from obvious wars or poverty, if one really examine it, just look at in this room❗️
”I just watched it again over the weekend. What’s really sad is that, when he’s sees her 20 years later, he’s actually able to be more open with her. But it’s too late. “
That makes it sadder! If he could not realize it all the way through, then he’s be speared from the pain. Oblivion/ignorance is a bless! I worry about making such mistakes, due to my “near-sighted” sensitivity and sensibility in relationship matters.
“Oh, I do. I love gossip. “
The gossip about celebrity could not change my life a bit in any fashion, particularly un-inspiring. So why would I spend my precious time on it? Do any of them care about us, our worries and stresses? In good novels, we at least could see characters development, learn from their thoughts, sentimentality, mistakes or achievements, we WATCH their mind and enrich ours in our individualistic ways.
“There’s a part of me that is very rational but another that is progressive and open to new ideas/cultures/ways of doing things. I also like to try things that p*ss off the establishment. “
For the last part, I liked it back in COO, because there were uncountable rules against human natures, and the establishment had/have so much power over small lives 😡. Here by comparisons, it’s SO MUCH freer! I don’t feel a need to p*ss off the establishment, although still “instinctively” rebel against “authoritative”treatments/tones, “thought police” voices, as if they have last say about what’s right or wrong…. Just look at what our president is doing 🤬 !
“I get those, too. What do you take?“
Zhi-Bai Di-Huang Wan Herbal Supplement ( in amazon)
It also helps constipation, it reduces one’s inner “fire” that causes canker sores and other “over-firey” related symptoms. You can buy them in any Chinese Herbal store in any Chinatown.
“And that’s what Western doctors so rarely tell you — all medication has side effects! “
Someone told me that doctors get some kind of fee from companies to help promote their new pills or even cosmetic products, such as skin lotions.
“I understand. We live in a culture of “busyness.” “I’m so busy …” I think it’s in part a way of avoiding confronting the self or one’s own dissatisfaction. “
Precisely! One needs to ask a question: what’s my ultimate goals for being so busy? Did I get or have I got my desired outcome yet, how do those outcomes make me feel? Have they brought me that lasting satisfaction, NOT just instant gratification? Have they made me feel more connected to people I love, like, or desire, or to the world at large? Is the Sun shinny brighter today?
“In a way, that’s what limerence is. An escape from dealing with one’s stuff. A focus outwardly on someone else. “
Yes. The only bewiddling thing is that why/how Glimmer knows when to STRIKE⁉️ and even when one seems to have a “shinny” or stable relationship already❓
[“That lifetime sense of “longing” or a pressure deeply sat inside my chest has gone. ” I completely understand this feeling. For me it’s longing and a sense of mourning something, only I don’t know what it is. ]
EXACTLY the same here! I had this Longing and that nagging melancholy since I had memory, and could never pin down what it was. I suspect I got it during my infancy or early childhood before I had any memory. Remember I was sent to a day care at 50 days old until 2.5 yrs and then had a lovely/caring “break” with Granny from 2.5-4 every single day. Then, from 4-6 yrs at a week-care, going home only once a week from Sat. Evening — Mon. morning. And I still remember those daycare and weekcare rules, not as bad as in “Jane Eyre”, but no individual, loving parental care or attention — two teachers for nearly 20 kids.
“So no more longing? That sounds wonderful. “
NO more longing, 🆎 ‼️ I never knew or guessed how it would like until it’s gone. I can never explain it to you in words how it feel likes. You know it’s gone when it’s gone from your backbone‼️ I always say — you’d know a birthing mother’s pains and joys only after you deliver a baby.
“Yes, the heat. The heat in my LE … with the LO who became a boyfriend … that died. It’s hard for me to say if it happened gradually or overnight. Because I didn’t see him for a while. And when I saw him again, the LE had lessened about 75%.”
I don’t think it can fade overnight because of the oxytocin hormone, but our conscious mind can’t detect its fading. There was a physical separation in my situation with SO after the engagement, that’s when 4 flings took place. So my mind truly let it go quickly.
“Ha! I knew exactly what you’re talking about. I call it being thrown onto the cold, hard pavement of reality. “
Never marry anyone before living with him/her everyday for 6-12 months!
“With me, it’s chunks of time. Other relatives will say, “Do you remember when blah, blah, blah happened …?” And I can’t remember it. (I don’t mean I can’t remember anything about those periods of time, though.) “
It was because my parents randomly recalled this or that, I realized that I lost a huge chuck of my memory, eg. I can’t remember any dinner scene or any eyeing activities before bedtime with my parents from age 4-7. At 7 I went to Granny for another 6 months and remember most of things I did, in detail…. I finally connected (2015) the memory loss with the trauma occurred around that time.
“I’m not sure what you mean. All the trauma happened before you were 8? And after the trauma you had no memories until now?”
There were many small abusive incidents, but 3 major traumas affected my memory and outlook on life ever since — such the Unconscious selections of my Glimmer.
I still don’t have those lost memories today! I can’t remember where my bed or our dining table was (from 4-7). (Mom said I slept in their full-size bed, but I had NO memory of such a thing). But I can remember my daytime activities with other kids in the apt. Compound, my daily duty to buy a pot of steamed rice in a nearby diner, and how my parents prepared/cooked dinners, kitchen, stove, chopping counter, etc — nothing afterwards! Needless to say I can’t remember whatever we ate. (I still remember detailed stuff Granny did with me back at age of 4).
[“If unmarried, he could open up himself more and you’d perhaps find more common, shared stuff between you two?” Not really. This is where compatibility comes in. I don’t think we were all that compatible as people. ]
Did your glimmer often land on incompatible men? Did you make a phantom out of them in every LE or LE-lite?
“Well, I’ve had other co-workers tell me personal stuff. Sometimes you develop some kind of friendship with people. “
The same happened to me, but only with female coworkers.
“Well, he didn’t disclose he was in love with me or anything. “
Then, what did he disclose? Why the word, “disclose”?
“I’ve done something like this. Energy healing. It’s very powerful. “
Tell me about those power energy healing works❗️☺️….
“I couldn’t feel the practitioner’s hand movement but man, oh man, did she pull up some stuff. I was balling. “
Balling? What does it mean? I did an energy retreat with women only group for three days, it’s so electrifying! I finally learned the power of my own body could produce….
“Oh, I kind of dig that. Depends on who’s doing the glancing, of course. Sometimes it’s creepy. Sometimes it’s flattering. Sometimes it’s electrifying, coming from the right person.”
For Glimmer, it was always my Unconscious who glanced and caught the potential LO, before he had any chance to glance at me. When they glanced at me, within one second, I knew whether it’s creepy, safe, predatory, gentle, stunned, masculine, feminine, lame or electrifying. From the last type, I actually shrank… probably another consequence of another trauma (I told it here before)…
Have a non-busy day!
Typo:
“I can’t remember any dinner scenes or any evening activities”
Snow,
“Hmmm… I don’t feel I could use the word “dependent” in all my past close friendship”
I was. If I needed something, I called them. I was closer to them than I was my family.
“despite I sometime feel deeply sad that they all live far away from me and we only connect during holidays or on each other’s birthdays…”
That’s what my friendships are like now. Friends kind of circle in and out.
“But if we hold back for the fear of the future loss, then we won’t feel fulfilled in the making/building a friendship, right?”
I didn’t say I’d never make another friend. But I have no expectations of them.
“Didn’t we agree, the quality of a journey itself counts more than possible outcomes⁉️. ”
I don’t think this idea applies here. It’s more like … when you’ve experienced something over and over, it’s time to accept the pattern. The reality. I don’t have one friendship that maintained a high degree of closeness over time. Things change, peoples’ lives change. I don’t want to set myself up for disappointment and a big sense of loss.
“No, not superficially on the blood tie, but mentally and emotionally, it is never the same as we were in childhood, youth, or even last year. Our mental states, almost for anything, is impermanent, and ALWAYS evolving, going either direction — better or worse, sometimes at a daily basis.”
Well, true, but still not the same. You aren’t going to disappear from your mother’s life, for example, because you have children. You (universal “you”) may do that with your friends. There’s not a sense of obligation/commitment with a friendship.
” If I could ever say to Mom, “I didn’t feel like doing something on the day of….“, you’d bid more of her slaps would land on my face.”
That would definitely cause you to make sure you did the activity!
“I do remember feeling anxious if I let other side wait or bad if I had to cancel due to a sudden illness or an urgent event.”
I don’t like making people wait. I’m on time. But I did cancel at the last minute. As I wrote, it was very rude.
” I worried a lot to make other side, even just regular friends, feeling disappointed. My COO friends were the same way to me and others.”
Obviously, it’s best to be this way.
” I never cared about it that much, which made me a cultural rebel — read too much Western classical/romantic literature earlier on, but I DO care “FACE” in some matters, such as keeping my word, regardless if involved others care about it or not. Otherwise, it would hurt my self-esteem.”
I don’t think I’d care about “saving face,” either. But basic courtesy to others is big with me now.
“That sounds very interesting! I’m going to check it out. Thanks for telling me the plot.”
I really liked “The Truth.”
“Yeah, that was the first time I heard of the word and looked it up back in the Fall of 2023. I thought: I’m not verbose in words (can’t be as ESL speaker), but I might be “verbose” in thoughts/sentiments (do you have such a word?).”
Over thinker? Overly effusive?
” If an idea, old or new, was mentioned or brought to conversation or reading, I’d naturally get 5 or more associated ideas and wandered down the road until I forcefully pulled myself back to the original topic. ”
I’m kind of the opposite. I struggled in school when writing papers to come up with enough points.
“That’s why oral communication in person always feels “shallow” to me (to all introverts perhaps?)”
I don’t think it feels shallow. I’ve had some great conversations with people. Some great on an intellectual level. Some on an emotional level.
” That’s monologue’s power — there is an audience/ear there❗️”
We have a lot of ears here, yes. 🙂
“She’s not as striking or mysterious as other known French actress, but I like her ordinariness — like a woman we bump in the street, you know what I mean.”
I see. By contrast, I watched the trailer for “Let the Sunshine In” the other day. Binoche is stunning in it.
” I was repulsed by her lover, the Russian diplomat — he looked so aloof and uncaring.”
I thought he was hot in the trailer. I haven’t seen the movie so I don’t know what the character is like.
“It’s indeed very sad! There are hundreds of this kind of heartbreaking stories still happening in societies where gay/lesbian union is forbidden.”
Very true.
“That makes it sadder! If he could not realize it all the way through, then he’s be speared from the pain. Oblivion/ignorance is a bless! I worry about making such mistakes, due to my “near-sighted” sensitivity and sensibility in relationship matters.”
I was talking about “Remains of the Day.” I should have been clearer. On youtube, you can find a video of deleted scenes from the movie. In one, where they meet at the end of the film, she tells him she sometimes dreams of what a life with him would have been like. I wonder if that’s a scene they should have included.
“The gossip about celebrity could not change my life a bit in any fashion, particularly un-inspiring. So why would I spend my precious time on it? ”
True. I just want to find out who my favorite stars are banging. 🙂
“For the last part, I liked it back in COO, because there were uncountable rules against human natures, and the establishment had/have so much power over small lives 😡.”
I meant the medical establishment. Don’t ever tell them you’re going to look into alternative methods. They can’t get their heads around it.
“Here by comparisons, it’s SO MUCH freer! I don’t feel a need to p*ss off the establishment, although still “instinctively” rebel against “authoritative”treatments/tones ”
Sometimes doctors will get authoritative. Or not like it when you question them in any way. The arrogance is unbelievable.
“It also helps constipation, it reduces one’s inner “fire” that causes canker sores and other “over-firey” related symptoms. You can buy them in any Chinese Herbal store in any Chinatown.”
I’ll look them up. Thanks.
“Someone told me that doctors get some kind of fee from companies to help promote their new pills or even cosmetic products, such as skin lotions.”
It’s possible. That I don’t know about.
“Precisely! One needs to ask a question: what’s my ultimate goals for being so busy?”
In American society, “busyness” makes you legitimate. Seem important.
“Yes. The only bewiddling thing is that why/how Glimmer knows when to STRIKE⁉️ ”
That’s a good question. I think it senses you have holes in your life and is pushing for an opening.
“Remember I was sent to a day care at 50 days old until 2.5 yrs and then had a lovely/caring “break” with Granny from 2.5-4 every single day. Then, from 4-6 yrs at a week-care, going home only once a week from Sat. Evening — Mon. morning. And I still remember those daycare and weekcare rules, not as bad as in “Jane Eyre”, but no individual, loving parental care or attention — two teachers for nearly 20 kids.”
If you don’t mind me asking, where was your dad in all this? Why couldn’t you stay with Granny indefinitely?
“I don’t think it can fade overnight because of the oxytocin hormone, but our conscious mind can’t detect its fading.”
I think you can probably sense it. You can sense a fade in the intensity.
“There was a physical separation in my situation with SO after the engagement, that’s when 4 flings took place. So my mind truly let it go quickly.”
You mean your mind let the limerence go quickly?
” At 7 I went to Granny for another 6 months and remember most of things I did, in detail…. ”
That’s probably because you had a loving home then. The chunks of time I can’t remember were unhappy times. The bad times.
“There were many small abusive incidents, but 3 major traumas affected my memory and outlook on life ever since — such the Unconscious selections of my Glimmer.”
Yes, my INFP sister! We glimmer at whomever we glimmer at BECAUSE of the childhood stuff. Thus, maybe filtering potential partners based on an initial glimmer may not be the best choice.
“But I can remember my daytime activities with other kids in the apt. … (I still remember detailed stuff Granny did with me back at age of 4).”
I’m guessing that you blocked out the bad stuff.
“Did your glimmer often land on incompatible men? Did you make a phantom out of them in every LE or LE-lite?”
Yes. LO-lite … I don’t know who that guy is. Whatever idea I had in my head … I was completely off.
“The same happened to me, but only with female coworkers.”
I am actually really good at getting people to tell me personal things. Men and women.
“Then, what did he disclose?”
I don’t want to get too specific here. Just that he was into me on a physical level and missed seeing me as we were now on different shifts.
“Tell me about those power energy healing works❗️☺️….”
It’s been a while. I don’t remember everything. But she held her hand over me and we went back to when the trauma in my childhood started. The event. And I was sobbing. It was very emotional.
” I did an energy retreat with women only group for three days, it’s so electrifying! I finally learned the power of my own body could produce….”
That sounds like something different than what I ‘m talking about. What did that involve?
“When they glanced at me, within one second, I knew whether it’s creepy, safe, predatory, gentle, stunned, masculine, feminine, lame or electrifying. From the last type, I actually shrank… probably another consequence of another trauma (I told it here before)…”
Oh. I would have dug the electrifying glance. 🙂
Marcia,
“I was. If I needed something, I called them. I was closer to them than I was my family. “
You were lucky to have such dependable friends. I’m an immigrant, so I made more international friends, who then leave the town sooner or later for new work or relationship. These friends were closer than my family who lived across the Pacific.
“I didn’t say I’d never make another friend. But I have no expectations of them. “
You’re already a Stoic! 🤝
[“Didn’t we agree, the quality of a journey itself counts more than possible outcomes.” I don’t think this idea applies here. It’s more like … when you’ve experienced something over and over, it’s time to accept the pattern. ]
I think it does. I did accept the reality but also strived to break the established patterns — my sense of rebellion. If I didn’t reach my ideal, I just didn’t get overly upset. The thought went like, “I’ve tried my best, nothing to regret on my part… it’s a Fate that it could not last long, C’est la vie!”
“The reality. I don’t have one friendship that maintained a high degree of closeness over time. Things change, peoples’ lives change. I don’t want to set myself up for disappointment and a big sense of loss. “
I did/do accept the reality — I don’t have an ideal friendship as I’ve dreamt either (all my close friends moved away.) “Things change, peoples’ lives change” just proves Tibetan philosophy on impermenace.
“Setting oneself up” sounds involves expectation, does it? If one tries one’s best without expectations, or even expect an upcoming loss, just like we KNOW we’ll die one day (or get an unexpected cancer), then what would happen? Should we stop trying to live our best now?
“….You (universal “you”) may do that with your friends. There’s not a sense of obligation/commitment with a friendship.”
In COO, there is such a sense. We did/do have a sense of obligation/commitment with close friends, as I “fiercely” argued once with LaR. We grew up with the concept that friendship is the most precious “commodity” one could have in life; a lasting, fulfill marriage would have it, or it will die. One does NOT disappear from one’s deep friendship because one has lover, spouse or children (you may not talk with them everyday or every week). If they do, then that friendship is not an authentic one! Also, your friends outlive your parents; when your parents are gone, whom you’re left with?
“That would definitely cause you to make sure you did the activity! “
I remember that my father also hammered me on sticking to and carrying my plans through, even if they may fail. When I did fail (failed a huge one), he’d say, “It doesn’t matter at all to us. It’s up to you to try it again or change a direction. We’ll support your decision.”
“I don’t like making people wait. I’m on time. But I did cancel at the last minute. As I wrote, it was very rude. “
Although I (we) was “disciplined” in the arena, I (we) did not demand, require or expect others to be the same way. Without the concept of “Stoic”, we were trained to consider that unexpected/misfortune could strike at any given moment, so be prepared all the time! Having a high expectation for anything/anyone was stupid (especially in an over-ruling communist regime, but no one dared to loudly say these words). You have no idea how many times I was “stood up” by others (especially by one Narc gf here.. I finally cut her off nearly two decades ago)
“..but I might be “verbose” in thoughts/sentiments (do you have such a word?).” Over thinker? Overly effusive?”
They are two words, not a single word! 😃
I’m not an over thinker, but perhaps an over dreamer or overly imaginative, definitely over effusive about anything new/strange/bizarre…. Granny and Dad were the same way, each day to them was like a brand new beginning to a five-year old, I always wondered why they appeared so effusively and genuinely curious…. Mom on the other hand looked like she was constantly hovered by invisible heavy, gray clouds…
I don’t like turning a stone upside down and knock it open to see what’s inside; I’d look around the stone and imagine what’s hidden underneath the stone… otherwise, my curiosity would die… That’s how I deal with unknown humanity stuff… There is no absolutely right or wrong, they change from culture to culture, and evolve from time to time in one culture.
”I’m kind of the opposite. I struggled in school when writing papers to come up with enough points. “
I was the same way with assigned essays. But with free-style writing or Q&A, my mind would run all over places, like a wild horse. A new word, its connotation and its association based on my personal and cultural experiences, could be “understood” in a paragraph, and an answer to a question stretched to a whole chapter…. 1.5 years ago, didn’t you stop reading the “War and Peace” chapters, due to their “verbose” length? 😆
“I don’t think it feels shallow. I’ve had some great conversations with people. Some great on an intellectual level. Some on an emotional level. “
It’s not shallow in the culture here or in books, NOT in LwL; but in COO, where expressions of emotions were/are discouraged and restricted, chatting in person is a kind of shallow/superficial. So in person, I have been very shy and mostly a passive listeners in a small group, except in one to one, comfortable dialogue.
Last night, I spoke with my Russian gf on the phone for over two hours. We only met twice in the past 6 years since she got married, but we chatted on screen from time to time for hours each time. It’d take us 1.5 hour bus+train to meet up (both can’t drive).
” That’s monologue’s power — there is an audience/ear there” We have a lot of ears here, yes. “ — an audience of uncountable ears! So this is an on-stage, invisible but audible “interview”. 👩 🪑 🧑 🪑
“I see. By contrast, I watched the trailer for “Let the Sunshine In” the other day. Binoche is stunning in it. “
Binoche is stunning in most of her films, or at least unforgettable, especially her sincere, “innocent”, loving, sexy, vulnerable, mysterious, strong, fiercely independent… expressions! I’m touching here two clips of her memorable facial expressions in various films —
https://youtu.be/cdSFTp3KBUk?feature=shared — Juliettte Binoche — Et Si Tu N’existais Pas
https://youtu.be/ZyKpkkuWEVc?feature=shared — Juliette Binoche — La Bohemia
” I was repulsed by her lover, the Russian diplomat — he looked so aloof and uncaring.” I thought he was hot in the trailer. I haven’t seen the movie so I don’t know what the character is like.
I know he appears “hot” to some women, but NOT to me. I don’t see warmth, caring, emotional trust-worth, vulnerability, and femininity in his eyes, which are almost cold. He’s definite a type of men I’d avoid!
“I was talking about “Remains of the Day.” I should have been clearer. On youtube, you can find a video of deleted scenes from the movie. In one, where they meet at the end of the film, she tells him she sometimes dreams of what a life with him would have been like. I wonder if that’s a scene they should have included. “
I may check that scene again, I just remembered the end was very sad and made me feeling blue for days. I don’t want to feel blue again…
“True. I just want to find out who my favorite stars are banging. “
🤭 is that so fascinating?
“I meant the medical establishment. Don’t ever tell them you’re going to look into alternative methods. They can’t get their heads around it. “
Oh, yes, most doctors (and therapists can be very arrogant and close-minded towards alternative methods or Eastern medicine and energy work. But my pcp and endocrinologist would spend 45 minutes listening to me about my meditation and how it improved my health.
“Sometimes doctors will get authoritative. Or not like it when you question them in any way. The arrogance is unbelievable. “
Very true! That’s why I fired my cptsd therapist, because she’s so snobbish and controlling, even tried to forbid me from reading other authors’ psychotherapy books (forget about self-help ones!), because they’re not credential enough according to her! I wondered if I appeared like a timid servant girl in her eyes! Yet she was “on SM call” for me during the last few days before Dad passed away. (She had her own traumas as she revealed a bit of her mother’s behavior.) The more she tried to reenact my parents, the harder I fought back. In the end, it became insufferable. I almost wrote a terrible review about her work on Google.
“In American society, “busyness” makes you legitimate. Seem important. “
That’s silly/unwise, imp. Why does one want to look legitimate/important? To cover a sense of insecurity? Is this sense of “feeling important” a part of the culture here? (“FACE culture” is COO’s national characteristic throughout the history! )
“That’s a good question. I think it senses you have holes in your life and is pushing for an opening. “
But pair-bonding is a part of DNA, why would it be affected by some external, emotional “turmoils”?
“If you don’t mind me asking, where was your dad in all this? Why couldn’t you stay with Granny indefinitely? “
I was told by Father’s colleagues and old neighbors that it was Dad who almost raised me “single-handedly” since Mom was forever busy and tired as a demanded doctor/surgeon. Since I was 50 days old, he went the daycare center four times a day — dropping me off, delivering the morning milk/baby food and the afternoon milk/baby food, and picking me up. During weekcare, every evening I peeked at the door wishing Dad would suddenly appear… when I escaped 3 times from weekcare, Dad kept me at home overnight, while Mom scolded me and wanted to return me immediately back to the center… Up to this day, I don’t remember Mom ever picked me up or dropped me off, not even ONCE!
Granny lived 2000 miles away and had to help my aunt take care of my two younger cousins in her town. I still remember the “first time” I met Dad when I was four. It was in a sleeping car in a train returning the home from Granny’s. I saw this man sat on my feet kindly smiling. He gently pulled my left thumb out of my mouth (had a habit sucking my thumb back then); then I stuck it into my mouth again later, and he slowly pulled it out again… so I dozed in and out of sleep, and he kept pulling my thumb out… that scene stuck in my mind clearly like yesterday! I can still feel the train’s movement — clinking, clinking, clinking…
The “first time” I met Mom was at her work; it was an unforgettable trauma, which left me a strong sense of her “contempt” and “abandonment” of me, (I made her “lose face” by not obeying the weekcare rules for the 3rd time). That scene is also stuck in my mind. I told it once here, no stomach to tell it again.
When a couple of other traumas took place, my Dad was around, but those events would not be considered as “traumas” by most COO folks, but they traumatized me. Even today, people there are quite “ignorant” about children developmental psychology and psychology in general. So I can tell you based on my observation: there are collective and cultural traumas occurring over there at a daily basis, in the past and present.
“I’m guessing that you blocked out the bad stuff.”
That’s what my therapist said; she said our kid brain can have that function. In those 3 major traumas, one by Mom (5-6 yrs), one a predator (6-7 yrs), and one by a running, headless, howling goose (8 yrs), I passed out. Afterwards, I did not remember anything and lost a chuck of memory. I don’t have them even today.
“I think you can probably sense it. You can sense a fade in the intensity. “
Yes. I think my “LE” began declining after the engagement.
“You mean your mind let the limerence go quickly?”
I meant I forgave SO’s four flings quickly. By that time, my focus was on daily logistical stuff, not hearty or heady stuff. What’s there to worry about after you “got” your Glimmered LO?
“Yes, my INFP sister! We glimmer at whomever we glimmer at BECAUSE of the childhood stuff. Thus, maybe filtering potential partners based on an initial glimmer may not be the best choice. “
But my major Glimmers all landed on a sweet, “pure”, warm, poetic, feminine looking man, nothing resembling my stoic (with small “s”) parents, they looked like having walked straight out of “Romeo and Juliet”! They made my heart leaped to the 🌙 and span there in circles —— just exaggerating a bit here. 🤭 and they all cared for me with whatever is allowed or with some effort…. I ignorantly contributed a lot to the failures….
“Yes. LO-lite … I don’t know who that guy is. Whatever idea I had in my head … I was completely off. “
I “heard” your chat with LaR. Last night, I did not understand the phrase “did a number on me” and only looked it up this morning. I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through…. That’s exactly what I was so afraid of while dealing with ET even after 6-7 years of LE dance… Even with the LE illusions/delusions, I could not feel the needed emotional intensity from the other side, so I held the boundary line tight…. Remember what we chatted about more than a year ago…? Now I 🆎 have no regret!
”That sounds like something different than what I ‘m talking about. What did that involve? “
Waking up one’s internal Kundalini energy through standing, sitting, breathing, a little bit movement, holding hands. In the end, four women had to press down my two feet and two hands for over 10 minutes, or I might have flewn to the sky… 😊
“Oh. I would have dug the electrifying glance. “
Because, Sister, you did not have a soul-shattering trauma, Fortunately! You’d enjoy that Russian diplomat in“Simple Passion”. It’s thought provoking…
I’m going to our first reunion in a very quiet country (2 hour drive) later this morning, with 4 former lady colleagues: an American (our ex-chair), an Italian, a Japanese, a French/Bulgarian, and me (no spouse or kids), lunching in a big garden. We brought/cooked our respective ethnic food there twice a year for the past 4-5 years.
I hope you continue recovering from your recent “anxiety attack”, have you met your shrink yet? How do you like her/him? Take a good care of yourself, INFP Sister!
Snow,
“You were lucky to have such dependable friends.”
Well, they were dependable. Until they weren’t. Until the friendships changed, for whatever reason.
[“I didn’t say I’d never make another friend. But I have no expectations of them. “
You’re already a Stoic! 🤝]
I didn’t want to have this kind of attitude. I just can’t go through the pain again of someone I’m close to circling out.
“I think it does. I did accept the reality but also strived to break the established patterns”
By “pattern,” I meant the pattern of close friends circling out of your life at some point. It’s just what happens. So I’m choosing to put my fuel in other tanks. I think spending a lot of time on making close friends is putting fuel in the wrong tank. I wish this weren’t true, but it is.
“Things change, peoples’ lives change” just proves Tibetan philosophy on impermenace.”
Exactly. So there’s no point in putting a lot of energy into friendship. I don’t mean not to put ANY. Or not to have any friends. Just accept the transitory nature of the relationship.
“ Should we stop trying to live our best now?”
No, but we have to adjust our expectations when repeated evidence shows us what the reality is. Sometimes one SHOULDN’T try one’s best. There’s no point. The deck was already stacked against you.
“One does NOT disappear from one’s deep friendship because one has lover, spouse or children (you may not talk with them everyday or every week). ”
Ok. But this is my point. It’s difficult to go from talking to someone every day or every week and being a big part of their lives … to talking to them twice a year. It doesn’t mean you can’t still be friends, but it means the friendship is no longer close. At least by my definition.
“he’d say, “It doesn’t matter at all to us. It’s up to you to try it again or change a direction. We’ll support your decision.””
That’s actually really nice. That he was supportive.
“Although I (we) was “disciplined” in the arena, I (we) did not demand, require or expect others to be the same way. ”
Really? I did and still do. I can’t stand when people are late. A few minutes? Ok. But if they are repeatedly making you wait for them, they don’t care about your time.
“You have no idea how many times I was “stood up” by others (especially by one Narc gf here.. I finally cut her off nearly two decades ago)”
And that didn’t hurt your feelings?
“They are two words, not a single word! 😃”
Well, I was coming up with the words on the fly. 🙂
” Mom on the other hand looked like she was constantly hovered by invisible heavy, gray clouds…”
She was a really negative person? Was she unhappy?
“I was the same way with assigned essays. But with free-style writing or Q&A, my mind would run all over places”
I struggle with it in creative writing as well. I run out of ideas.
“1.5 years ago, didn’t you stop reading the “War and Peace” chapters, due to their “verbose” length? 😆”
Lol. Yes, I was aging a year as I was reading them. 🙂
“but in COO, where expressions of emotions were/are discouraged and restricted, chatting in person is a kind of shallow/superficial. So in person, I have been very shy and mostly a passive listeners in a small group, except in one to one, comfortable dialogue.”
Understood. Have you gotten more expressive and more talkative now that you are not living in COO?
[I’m touching here two clips of her memorable facial expressions in various films —
https://youtu.be/cdSFTp3KBUk?feature=shared — Juliettte Binoche — Et Si Tu N’existais Pas
https://youtu.be/ZyKpkkuWEVc?feature=shared — Juliette Binoche — La Bohemia]
Thanks for posting those. She looks beautiful. The only two images I didn’t like were where she had blonde hair. She looks more mysterious and ethereal with dark hair. And the one where she has her hair up and a lot of makeup on. Too much makeup. She doesn’t need a lot of makeup. Makes her look common.
“I know he appears “hot” to some women, but NOT to me. I don’t see warmth, caring, emotional trust-worth, vulnerability, and femininity in his eyes, which are almost cold. He’s definite a type of men I’d avoid!”
I think we have very different types. I’d be all over that. 🙂
“I just remembered the end was very sad and made me feeling blue for days. I don’t want to feel blue again…”
It’s quite sad. They missed the boat. They should have been together.
“🤭 is that so fascinating?”
Yes! 🙂
Oh, yes, most doctors (and therapists can be very arrogant and close-minded towards alternative methods or Eastern medicine and energy work.”
Exactly. Heaven help you mention nutrition or supplements. They dismiss you.
“But my pcp and endocrinologist would spend 45 minutes listening to me about my meditation and how it improved my health.”
That’s great. Usually pcps are the opposite.
“That’s why I fired my cptsd therapist, because she’s so snobbish and controlling, even tried to forbid me from reading other authors’ psychotherapy books (forget about self-help ones!), because they’re not credential enough according to her!”
She sounds awful.
” Is this sense of “feeling important” a part of the culture here? (“FACE culture” is COO’s national characteristic throughout the history! )”
Yes. I’d say so.
“But pair-bonding is a part of DNA, why would it be affected by some external, emotional “turmoils”?”
Limerence seems to strike at bad times or transition times in peoples’ lives. Mid-life, for example.
“During weekcare, every evening I peeked at the door wishing Dad would suddenly appear”
So weekcare is … you stay overnight until the weekend? Why couldn’t you just live at home and have your father look after you?
“the “first time” I met Dad when I was four. It was in a sleeping car in a train returning the home from Granny’s. I saw this man sat on my feet kindly smiling. He gently pulled my left thumb out of my mouth (had a habit sucking my thumb back then); then I stuck it into my mouth again later, and he slowly pulled it out again… so I dozed in and out of sleep, and he kept pulling my thumb out… that scene stuck in my mind clearly like yesterday! I can still feel the train’s movement — clinking, clinking, clinking…”
That’s a nice memory.
“That’s what my therapist said; she said our kid brain can have that function. In those 3 major traumas, one by Mom (5-6 yrs), one a predator (6-7 yrs), and one by a running, headless, howling goose (8 yrs), I passed out. Afterwards, I did not remember anything and lost a chuck of memory. I don’t have them even today.”
Do you mean a literal goose? Where did the trauma happen with the predator? At the weekcare?
“What’s there to worry about after you “got” your Glimmered LO?”
Keeping the flame alive.
“But my major Glimmers all landed on a sweet, “pure”, warm, poetic, feminine looking man, nothing resembling my stoic (with small “s”) parents, they looked like having walked straight out of “Romeo and Juliet”! ”
You’re lucky. Mine were all morons. 🙂
“I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through”
I appreciate that, but I have to take responsibility for it. It was a choice I made.
“I could not feel the needed emotional intensity from the other side, so I held the boundary line tight”
If I waited to be attracted to someone, have them be attracted to me, AND feel the necessary emotional intensity from them … I might be dead before that happens.
“Waking up one’s internal Kundalini energy through standing, sitting, breathing, a little bit movement, holding hands. In the end, four women had to press down my two feet and two hands for over 10 minutes, or I might have flewn to the sky… 😊”
Why exactly? I’ve done Kundalini yoga. It’s powerful. It was very relaxing.
“Because, Sister, you did not have a soul-shattering trauma, ”
I’ve had some trauma.
“Fortunately! You’d enjoy that Russian diplomat in“Simple Passion”. It’s thought provoking…”
I’d have to see the movie to see the character. He looks good, but that’s as much as I can tell from the trailer.
“I’m going to our first reunion in a very quiet country (2 hour drive) later this morning, with 4 former lady colleagues: an American (our ex-chair), an Italian, a Japanese, a French/Bulgarian, and me (no spouse or kids), lunching in a big garden. We brought/cooked our respective ethnic food there twice a year for the past 4-5 years.”
That sounds nice.
“I hope you continue recovering from your recent “anxiety attack”, have you met your shrink yet?”
I’ve calmed down, thank you for asking. The anxiety is about 80 percent less. And now I’m just sad. Yes, I’ve met the shrink. Appointment went well.
Marcia,
It’s not easy to respond your post, which alway led to many other correlated topics, that could stretch to a shorter variation of the verbose “war and peace”. What shall we call it? — “Distinction and Affinity”? I really feel like attending an Q&A session in an invisible public space — LwL. 😊
“Well, they were dependable. Until they weren’t. Until the friendships changed, for whatever reason. “
“dependable” in verbal communications or logistic actions/deeds?
“I didn’t want to have this kind of attitude. I just can’t go through the pain again of someone I’m close to circling out. “
I believe Stoic is founded on the aim to shield one from emotional pains. It cuts down expectations while still striving to build and enjoy friendship/relationship when it is here and now — the journey itself.
“By “pattern,” I meant the pattern of close friends circling out of your life at some point. It’s just what happens. “
Even if the reality patterns remain, our reactions towards them could change. Pains are ALWAYS caused by our reactions, but by events themselves.
“So I’m choosing to put my fuel in other tanks. I think spending a lot of time on making close friends is putting fuel in the wrong tank. I wish this weren’t true, but it is. “
Of course, we could invest our fuel in more “profitable” tanks, but then we may never benefit from possible, really fulfilling friendship tank, not even 1% percent of chance.
“Exactly. So there’s no point in putting a lot of energy into friendship. I don’t mean not to put ANY. Or not to have any friends. Just accept the transitory nature of the relationship. “
Since friendship is more important to me than other stuff in life, I’d still allocate my most fuel even in a possible substantial friendship. Isn’t that everything in life is transitory? What in life to you was/is permanent? Or permanently fulfilling/satisfactory?
[“ Should we stop trying to live our best now?”
No, but we have to adjust our expectations when repeated evidence shows us what the reality is. “]
We are back to Stoic, which is not to change reality, but find things what is within our control while striving for virtues that benefit ourselves and do no harms to others.
“Sometimes one SHOULDN’T try one’s best. There’s no point. The deck was already stacked against you. “
Whether to try our best depends on what we value most and what fulfill us most. If I know I can only have one-year best friendship, that will leave me for the rest of my life, I would still put my best effort to enjoy that one-year! I’ll try to another friendship afterwards. A cliche — truly living one day at a time (it’s truly what I’m doing now…).
“Ok. But this is my point. It’s difficult to go from talking to someone every day or every week and being a big part of their lives … to talking to them twice a year. It doesn’t mean you can’t still be friends, but it means the friendship is no longer close. At least by my definition. “
Yes, here lies our different definitions. As mentioned before, frequent talks is just one indication of close friendship in COO, but deeds and spirits/emotions are more involved. People “hide” their authentic emotions or private thoughts for fear of either political concerns or ‘losing face” (if revealing vulnerabilities). Everyone wants to appear or to be thought smart, strong, and skillful, etc. I grew up with that kind of culture that is “inhuman” and sickening in some ways.
“Really? I did and still do. I can’t stand when people are late. A few minutes? Ok. But if they are repeatedly making you wait for them, they don’t care about your time. “
I did/do not like it either! but I would NOT get too upset or angry about it. In COO, both sides mutually consider thoroughly for other sides and mutually forgive if unexpected strike. After three-trials to test a workable friendship, we either stay or walk away from them (even business partners); it’s unwritten social rules. Being upset/angry is considered useless or unwise — you can’t changing other people’s personality.
[“(especially by one Narc gf here.. I finally cut her off nearly two decades ago)”And that didn’t hurt your feelings?]
Yes, angry/furious, but not lingering pains. I never highly DEPENDENTed on her or any other close friends, mentally, emotionally or physically — a part of COO and Dad’s “training”. So if needed, I could cut them off without difficulties or regrets . Expecting any possible negative outcomes is a part of living in this highly imperfect world; everyone makes mistakes in assessing people or making “wrong” friends, who also naturally change for better or worse.
[But with free-style writing or Q&A, my mind would run all over places” I struggle with it in creative writing as well. I run out of ideas.]
I can ONLY do creative-writing in English, very, very clumsy in COO tongue, that restricts my free association/thinking. I talked about this once with LaR. The language is bonded to culture, which then affects mindset.
[“1.5 years ago, didn’t you stop reading the “War and Peace” chapters, due to their “verbose” length? ” Lol. Yes, I was aging a year as I was reading them. ]
So now you’re 3 years older than 2023? Not as much as me, who has aged 13 years just by rambling through its triathlon chapters… 😆
“Understood. Have you gotten more expressive and more talkative now that you are not living in COO?”
Yes, a lot better if the other side is NOT from COO, and is perceived trustable, patient, nonjudgmental and highly empathetic (not sympathetic — I, an Eastern Amazon Warrior, will accept no one else’s sympathy for me, nor self-pity!). Still an introvert cannot be transformed to extrovert over night, or the other way around, right?
“She looks beautiful. The only two images I didn’t like were where she had blonde hair. She looks more mysterious and ethereal with dark hair. “ And the one where she has her hair up and a lot of makeup on. Too much makeup. She doesn’t need a lot of makeup. Makes her look common. “
Totally agree with you here. The stupid makeup and blonde hair suited the two characters she was in.
“I think we have very different types. I’d be all over that. “
Yeap, we’re different here. I can sense people’s type just by taking a look at their eyes for 1-3 seconds. You’ll have to tell me how you feel about this “Russian Diplomat” after you watch the movie.
“” Is this sense of “feeling important” a part of the culture here? (“FACE culture” is COO’s national characteristic throughout the history! )” Yes. I’d say so.
Is it the FEAR that one would feel not to be needed or unimportant to be listened to or account for? So it’s not enough to be oneself and lead a quiet life, but one needs to look busy and feel important in others’ eyes? If individuality is stressed in the West, how does it manifest?
“Limerence seems to strike at bad times or transition times in peoples’ lives. Mid-life, for example.”
I agree with your insight, but Limerence also strikes when one’s life or a couple’s relationship seems to be okay.
“She was a really negative person? Was she unhappy?”
Indeed, Mom is highly negative and harshly critical about everything under the sun, as if she’s elected universe judge ( not so much nowadays anymore)! She had a weak physiological foundation and was alway underweight, which could contribute to her habitual grumpy moods. But later, she also admitted that she had a low grade depression all her life probably from genetics, all her family members are introvert, super quiet, etc…. She so often made me feel like a big “sore” in her life — either neglected me or criticized/abuse me. I don’t remember we were emotionally close even for one day! I mentioned that I wished so much my gfs’ mothers and even my day/week care teacher could adopt me.
“So weekcare is … you stay overnight until the weekend? Why couldn’t you just live at home and have your father look after you?”
Yes, you stay 6 days and five nights at weekcare, and 2 weekend nights and 1 weekend day at home with your caregivers. Dad as a professor could not care for me full-time, only his time was more flexible than Mom, who had an on-call night in person every week.
“Do you mean a literal goose? “
Yes, a literal goose! I’m probably the only child in the whole world (by a google’s search on “headless goose”) who witnessed a real headless, howling goose running in circles, blood pumping out of its neck, and its head laying on the ground nearby… His ignorant owner did not drain out its blood first before completely chopping off its neck, or he lost control of holding the neck tight to drain the blood first. Ever since I become hemophobic, and I felt tremendously nauseous, sky spinning, and nearly passed out when I saw fresh blood running out of my left elbow after that big fall in Florence’s copper-stone street on 4/11 morning, on the way to see the most famous butt in the world!
“Where did the trauma happen with the predator? At the weekcare? “
Nope, I don’t remember I ever saw a single man in day/week care during my entire stay, all the teachers were women and the woman director was my family’s friend. It happened inside our apartment compound with other 3 girls in a late, sunny afternoon before 5pm. The slim, soft-looking man, about 18-20 years old neighbor, lured us from the big courtyard to his home with some chocolate. Today I still remember him leaning on the room’s door (on the first floor), as if saying, “haha, I’ve got you!”… the last thing I remembered was his grins, not vicious.
I’ve also completely forgot who other three girls were and what happened to us in that room lying on four single beds, lined up on two sides of the walls. I have no memory of anything before I went to Granny again (7.5 yrs old, probably one year after the incident).
After working with three therapists, I still can’t get any memory back, except the guesses/speculations. One therapist said it’s unimportant to know the details, but the impact. The fear of the moment is imprinted in body for good, and I needed to work the impact off or live with it in peace.
“What’s there to worry about after you “got” your Glimmered LO?” Keeping the flame alive. “
I was too young and immature to know that the flame needs to be kept “alive”. Ffollowing the cultural script, I believed that the flame would remain alive even after you get together with LO, especially after a marriage — a safety belt.
“You’re lucky. Mine were all morons. “
I believe that trauma affected on what kind of male face my Glimmer landed — safe, warm, sweet? … probably NOT common “hot”.
[“I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through” I appreciate that, but I have to take responsibility for it. It was a choice I made. ]
“There is no great dark man. It’s not his rejection we have to fear, it’s his nonexistence. We see him invoked everywhere. But he is a fantasy and damaging fantasy at that. He’s causing it, and he could well be the death of you.” — Quentin Crisp.
I think this summarizes well of a phantom of our realistic LO, whom limerents chased for centuries.
“If I waited to be attracted to someone, have them be attracted to me, AND feel the necessary emotional intensity from them … I might be dead before that happens.”
I already papered for such a “death” before bumping into ET, but “never” never happened. Do you think your view is somewhat pessimistic, instead of Stoic? Which would still mentally prepare for the worst, but meanwhile not chasing something that one knows would bring oneself pains…?
“Why exactly? I’ve done Kundalini yoga. It’s powerful. It was very relaxing. “
For many, it’s relaxing. But I had Qigong training at age of 20, so Kundalini meditation would make my body shake violently and jump up over 3-4 feet high, which is unsafe to myself and others. So they had to press me down until the “internal dragon”/Qi calmed down.
“I’ve had some trauma. “
If you think its impact still exists/affects you, you may want to address it with your therapist. I believe that longing would not be gone before we gut our past “stuff” handled.
“That sounds nice. “
The reunion went very nice, just superb! However, we regretably talked about the previously retired male chair (before this female one) whom I met a couple of times(Last May he made his own, delicious Sangria punch) and his already spread, very painful cancer. Today in the morning we heard of his sad news: he passed away yesterday after our gathering. He looked very much like John Hurt, in the similar height and physique. I felt it’s a “jinx”… Life is so unpredictable! *sigh*
“I’ve calmed down, thank you for asking. The anxiety is about 80 percent less. And now I’m just sad. Yes, I’ve met the shrink. Appointment went well.”
That’s a good news to have 80% of anxiety gone. I hope your new shrink would help reduce the rest of 20 percent. Please keep me informed.
I found this quote is very inspiring —
“Neither look forward where there is doubt, nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything outside that you want, but whether there is anything inside that you have not yet unpacked.”
— Quentin Crisp
❄️,
About this goose incident. Firstly, that must have been horribly traumatic – I wish you had not had to witness that.
But my T brain is spinning in loops about it (I’m sorry). Presuming the goose’s brain was in its head, if the head was cut off, what was giving its body the signal to run in circles??!!
Don’t get me wrong, I 🆎️ believe your story. But the science of it is driving me crazy!
🌱 🌽,
I think AI would explain much better than me —
The phenomenon you’re describing is shockingly real and stems from **spinal cord reflexes and residual nerve activity** after decapitation. While most commonly associated with chickens (like the famous “Mike the Headless Chicken” who lived 18 months!), geese and other birds can exhibit similar, though usually shorter-lived, behavior. Here’s the breakdown:
1. **Running/Flapping:** **Yes, briefly.**
* **Why?** The spinal cord contains neural circuits (“central pattern generators”) that control basic rhythmic movements like walking, running, or wing flapping. These circuits don’t require signals from the brain to activate.
* **Trigger:** The massive trauma of decapitation sends chaotic nerve signals down the spinal cord. This can randomly trigger these motor circuits, causing the body to run, flap, or convulse. It’s purely reflexive, **not** conscious movement.
2. **”Howling” (Vocalizations):** **Unlikely in the true sense.**
* **Why Not?** True vocalizations require coordinated muscle control of the syrinx (a bird’s vocal organ, located near the base of the trachea where it splits into the bronchi) and airflow from the lungs/air sacs, controlled by the brainstem *and* higher brain regions.
* **What You Might Hear:** Air escaping violently from the severed trachea or lungs as the body convulses can create gurgling, hissing, or gasping sounds. This isn’t a controlled “howl” but rather chaotic noise from expelled air and fluids.
3. **”Bumping” Blood Out of the Neck:** **Yes, briefly.**
* **Why?** The heart may continue to beat weakly for a short time due to:
* Its own intrinsic pacemaker cells (don’t need brain signals).
* Residual oxygen in the blood.
* Adrenaline surge at the moment of death.
* **Result:** With the major arteries in the neck severed and the head gone, each residual heartbeat will pump blood out of the open neck stump. This creates the dramatic “bumping” or spurting effect. However, without oxygenated blood returning (no lungs working), the heart stops very quickly.
**Duration: How Long Does This Last?**
* **Intense Convulsions/Running/Flapping:** Typically **10-90 seconds**. This is the period of chaotic spinal reflex activity triggered by the trauma.
* **Weaker Twitching/Shuddering:** Can persist for several minutes (up to 5-10 minutes in some cases) as individual nerve cells and muscles exhaust their energy reserves.
* **Heart Beating/Blood Pumping:** Usually stops within **1-3 minutes**. The heart muscle is highly oxygen-dependent. Once residual oxygen is depleted, it stops. The dramatic spurting subsides quickly as blood pressure plummets.
* **”Mike the Headless Chicken” Exception:** Mike survived because the **axe stroke missed the jugular vein** and a **clot prevented fatal bleeding**. Crucially, **most of his brainstem (which controls vital functions like breathing and heart rate) remained intact** within the body. His owner fed him directly into his esophagus. This is an **extreme, freak occurrence** not representative of normal decapitation. A truly headless goose (with the brain/brainstem removed or destroyed) cannot survive for hours or days.
In COO, “fresh meat” means all poultry, wild birds, river fish, snakes, frogs, turtles… are killed right before being cooked, rarely frozen up for later (becoming tasteless). Hosts would show important guests those alive poultry before the meal, eg. feet-tied chicken, or swimming fish (like in my material grandmother’s tall, wide clay pot; I did all selection.)
When I was teenager, Dad used to take me or some other grownups to the country to “frogging” — catching hundreds of alive frogs for extra, delicious protein. You’d get food poisoning if you eat dead frog legs (unless they’re cleaned and frozen up right after death.)
After you clean up the frogs — skin them, dump out all insides, chop their head and four tiny claws off, they still move around due to the nerve reflex/twitching. I start learning how to cook with Dad since 8, so often watched a couple of completely cleansed frogs jumping up in my wok — swearing its truth! They explained to me the reflex of nerves back then.
If you go to a COO restaurant ordering for river fish sushi, you get to select an alive fish in a large tank. And they’d bring you a whole cleaned fish, sliced on both sides but with the head intact — it’s bad luck to eat headless whole fish (“fish” is monophonic with “abundance”). Guess what would happen?
A story went: an American lady in a delegate saw a whole Sushi fish kept gulping at her, so she passed out. I didn’t believe the story so Dad took me to a restaurant to try the river-fish Sushi, and It’s proven true! What happened in kitchen was that chefs wrapped ice towel around the fish’s head when cleaning and slicing it, so to keep it truly “fresh”!
Warning: if you travel in COO, please gather all your courage preparing to encounter its exotic food/delicacy…
Wow, just wow! That poor goose. Not to mention the tragic Mike the Headless Chicken.
Here we do have isolated cases of similar things with food, like if you want to eat a lobster, you often pick the live one you want out of all of them swimming around a tank. I have seen fish caught on a boat and then put on a bbq when they are barely dead too.
So you mean at that Sushi restaurant the fish are sometimes still alive even at the point of being served to the diner??
The river-fish (for sushi) is dead, but the its nerve reflex in the head is still “alive”, gulping at you! 🐟
Of course, lobsters, crabs, oysters have to be alive before eating them, or we get food poisoning.
I couldn’t possibly eat such a thing. I’d feel too sorry for it! I like the taste of meat too much to stop eating it, and yet—I don’t like to think of it as a living thing that could care. 😛
🦇,
So you’ve never eaten lobster or oysters?
Have you ever watched any video clips of cows’ and pigs’ slaughter house in TX? Mom claimed that when she was little, she saw a cow crying with tears right before it was killed in a farm, so she hated to eat beaf.
Also, if meat/eggs/sugar were all rationed like the post WWII in Europe, and there were no refrigerators, what would one do with self-raised poultry and caught fishes?
No, I don’t want to see videos like that. I think I had oysters once, but didn’t like them.
🦇,
I don’t like oyster, either, because you can’t clean its inside…. I refused to eat all insides or functional parts of animals, e.g. livers, stomachs, intestines, 👂 or 👅 … 🤮
When I was 10, I tried a 🐻’s paws… A family’s friend brought in, and I was curious to taste that it was like…
🐍’s meat is delicious, tender than chicken. 🐓
I have been maintaining NC for fourteen days. I feel myself slipping.
Somebody please talk me down off the ledge.
Don’t blow the 14 days NC for now Norma – all I have time to say right at this second is *for yourself, don’t do it*.
I’ll write later on and explain why. Or some wiser owls than me who have lived through starving out their LE through NC might beat me to it first and tell you.
So Norma I have nothing better to offer than this. Each day of NC is lessening the addiction and dependence just a tiny bit. You won’t be able to feel this yet, but it will be happening all the same. Most people say it is 3 to 5 weeks before they start to really feel the benefit. It will happen but you have to keep up the NC to get there.
To deliberately break the NC, in contrast, is to reset that clock to Day 1 again afterwards. The pain of days 1-14 would then have to be repeated in some form to restore it to where you are now.
I know he is in the neighbourhood and you’ll have accidental contact at some point but that’s different. You can choose, then, to react by being pleasant but not over-pleasant, and doing nothing to fan the flames of your LE. That could feel really good and be different to a clock reset / would not be one.
Come on N.D. you got this, I believe you can hold out!!!
If what I have said isn’t enough to make you hold NC, yell for more help from others.
To LaR:
You are just the right amount of yelling. I am still doing okay.
Thank you!
@Norma
Give it the night, and see how you feel in the morning (or, the time-period for whatever, wherever time-zone you are right now.)
There’s no rush. Take this time, you can check in again later to see how you feel. But don’t break it right now.
It is not going to be comfortable. But, it is how you will get better.
Sit with the discomfort. It will be awful, but you CAN do it, and if you sit with it, *you cannot lose*. You are shedding LO, and, as a bonus, you are getting stronger in yourself.
You have come so far. Think of all the hard work you have already done, and honor that, and yourself, by not breaking your NC.
Thank you dear CSC. You are always so kind to me. I appreciate your encouragement so much.
I am doing okay. The temptation passed and I am hanging in there.
norma!
this is good to hear. i am glad you managed. you are very strong, norma. it is not easy, i know!
i am rooting for you. i know it is a LOT of effort, resisting the temptation. when i look back at my own, i literally cannot believe i was able to get over the hump…it was that difficult. the cravings were real. and, the kind of confusion, guilt, etc….all very difficult to get through.
i hope today is ok for you, norma. remember to show yourself compassion today — you are doing something very difficult…and very taxing.
i am so glad you saw my note.
x
csc
oops i forgot to say @norma 👆👆 when i just posted you back!
For reasons I can’t explain, I feel like crap tonight. I thought I was getting through it. But hey.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s not LO, I genuinely couldn’t care less. Yes I’m still recovering, but she is now nothing to me. Just an irritation.
What’s bothering me is the state of my life. What the hell is wrong with me? I love my SO deeply. So what’s wrong. I’m lonely, something is missing that makes me feel this miserable.
This keeps happening. Every few years. Around it comes again. It comes and goes, but I’m still left battling the aftermath .
I’m done. I can’t do this anymore. Good job I’m not drinking. I’m exhausted and emotional and grieving for my family member. I can’t cope with this, I’m not strong enough. I’ve been told today that I’m not good enough. In a round about way. Again.
Sorry everyone. This is the only place I can write this stuff. I’ve had it. Night.
Jmmo,
Sorry to hear you in so much pain.
Give the grieving process the time it deserves – it is bound to hurt. Try not to mangle that with any other issues. It is big enough on its own.
In time (as a later job for yourseld), explore the voice that says you’re not good enough. I have it too, if that helps. Rhetorical ‘thinker’ questions definitely not for LwL answers (maybe for therapy): whose voice is it? Not good enough by whose standards? What gives them the right to decide that?! Do other voices say different?
You’ll be OK. You have done great to get where you have got to. Tomorrow is a new day. Vent or chat more if you need my friend.
To JMMO:
I think it’s normal that you would react intensely when you have lost a family member, and that your current mental state is going to be somewhat skewed.
Please just keep breathing and putting one foot in front of the other.
Thank you Norma. I think getting through one day at a time is needed.
I hope that you are doing ok xx
To JMMO:
I am just hanging in there. Trying to follow my own advice!
Hi @jmmo
I understand…I sometimes (ok, maybe more than that…) view my limerent tendency as a kind of node on something much larger in my life. A kind of… discontentment. Hm. Loneliness, as you say…as you name it…something missing…it is hard to define. But it is there.
I understand— it comes around, a hard cycle. I struggle there, also.
A family loss is a demanding time in all ways. Even if it was an expected loss – or not a total surprise — it doesn’t seem like it should be seismic. But it is. So, do not be so hard on yourself, friend, so stark. When things clear a bit, you can reexamine this feeling you are facing, and you probably will. Even if it’s hard and a bit scary, you can take it at your own pace. But right now, you may need to restore yourself a bit. Gently.
If you can, please pop in tomorrow and let me know how you are, how your state is. I will check. (If you can’t that’s ok 🙂 Thinking of you.
X csc
LaR,
Thanks mate. There is still much work to be done, clearly. The voice is mine, but was also the virtual voice of another actual person yesterday. That shouldn’t matter as I barely knew them. But it did. My last LE has taken any shreds of self belief and confidence in my judgements and my ability to function as a rounded human being away.
Jmmo
Hang in, Jmmo. I recognise so much of this kind of selftalk in the shell version of myself that I was feeling only six short weeks ago. You will feel better but it takes time – be patient with yourself, especially given other recent events.
@LaR
(and @jmmo)
…wow, LaR, i love that term so much “Shell version” it defintiely describes the kind of fragile, hollowed out version of someone that remains, after an LE…LaR I love how you invent these succinct phrases. You have such a knack for that.
(not to be overly positive, but, a shell is also a place where great growth occurs, but not before it’s time.) sorry, i had to mention that. i would not feel i had done the animals justice if i didn’t. i’m a nature lover :))
Hi csc
Thank you as ever lovely friend. Today I am tired, emotional and completely lacking any self-worth, motivation or purpose. I feel as though I am failing at life, and grieving at the same time. I also find myself grieving for the purpose that my LE gave me. Something to exist for. What does that say about my life? I do not miss xLO. I firmly wish I had never met her. I don’t miss the LE either, yet I know it gave me that high. This rehab is hard!
Jmmo xx
Oh jmmo….
i wish i could come and cheer you up! oddly, i’m kind of good at that, even though i’m such a depressive myself. 🙂
i’m sorry you are blue. it is so hard, when self-worth runs low. i understand. you are not failing at life. life is hard, and it is complicated, sometimes. it is not you. you are not a failure. not any more than i am, in my life.
both of us are going through something extreme, in terms of introspection and a kind of transition. but i have a feeling we will both keep at it until we crest the hill here to a better space. whatever that is.
still, i am not going to downplay how awful it can feel. i know. and sometimes, one simply needs to feel sad, and be blue, and let it cycle through… just know, it is passing. not forever, not evidence you are failing, and not a verdict.
i understand about missing the purpose of an le. i miss mine. it was kind of a “project” for lack of a better word. i definitely understand that. now i don’t have a project. i just have…me. and my existence….hm.
blp, i have to run and do my bookkeeping (insert anguished cry). just wanted to say i’m thinking of you.
hugs aplenty…
csc
Dear csc
Thank you blp. Everything you say makes sense. I guess I’m feeling the hole in my life more than I have recently. And when faced with that gulf, one is bound to look at one’s self and make a judgement about why I can’t feel happier. Yet as a health professional I would have been telling others that that is counter productive. But us heath people make the worst patients.
Thank you my dear. Your kindness and your support continue to wrap me in warmth, and I’m so grateful to you.
We are both getting there. And we will. And I am here for you as I know you are for me. Thank you.
Happy book keeping!
PS: I have absolutely no doubt regarding your ability to lift people’s spirits.
Hugs
Jmmo
I’m in some weird place today between being angry and enormously sad. Folks on here have, I guess, correctly assigned my sadness to my bereavement and maybe a combination of that and the rehab from LE. I’m not angry with xLO anymore , I just really don’t care. Disdain and apathy towards her have become my friends, and I would be content for it to remain so. Permanently. I have zero intention of reforming any kind of mutual existence whatsoever. The biggest favour she can do me is to stay the hell out of my way.
As I’ve described in previous posts, I am angry with this need for the LE feeling. I am tired of grieving for it. I have had enough of being addicted to it. I am done with the awareness that I’m constantly looking for it.
Meanwhile I am so tired. Mentally and physically. I can’t concentrate, I’m snappy, and I really don’t like this version of me. On top of that I am now unhappy with my parents following conversations yesterday. I have ignored messages and calls from them which I don’t think I’ve ever done before.
I’m a chronic Limerant. And whilst I know that it is mixed in with grief and anger about my relative, who meant the world to me, this feels different. It makes me want all the more to find out whatever’s going on in my mind and heart, and to fix it so that this doesn’t happen again.
I have a feeling I’m setting an impossible task for myself. No one said rehab was easy, I suppose.
Hi Jmmo,
You really seem to be going through it at the moment. I’m glad you feel you can let some of it out to us here – keep doing that if you can.
“Meanwhile I am so tired. Mentally and physically. I can’t concentrate, I’m snappy, and I really don’t like this version of me.”
This was me 2-3 months ago, and it stayed like that for ages – you will remember. That part *does* lift, even *while* some of the rest remains unsolved, if you invest into self-care consistently. It’s a phase, but one we get stuck in for longer than we’d like. You’ll have seen me and Csc discussing it before, but with LEs we have put ourselves through a huge amount of strain and over-thinking over a long time. That means the fatigued ‘hangover’ period is simply inevitable, and one we have to ‘allow’ in ourselves, tough as that may be to do.
“On top of that I am now unhappy with my parents following conversations yesterday. I have ignored messages and calls from them which I don’t think I’ve ever done before.”
All the issues (your mood and the grief from your loss) have probably meshed in this part, and the parents won’t understand why. Is there a way you can just ‘be the bigger person’ somehow? By that I mean – maintain a firm conviction inside that you are right, but give a bit of ground on the surface for the sake of ease? If yes, that might lift one pressure.
“It makes me want all the more to find out whatever’s going on in my mind and heart, and to fix it so that this doesn’t happen again.”
My lim-friend, this is a great objective to have. It shows you have shifted the focus off LO and onto yourself. But this one does take time – it is still largely outstanding for me, too. Rehab really has to take the form of first ending *this* addiction and *then* looking at why it happene/happens to you and how not to return to it. Unless, of course, you have the immediate threat of another (potential) LO being in the picture, but I don’t think that’s the case.
I don’t know if others would agree with me here (please disagree if you think I’m wrong), but I’d say basic self-care and care for others around you should trump the search for deeper answers, just for the time being.
Hi Jmmo,
I‘m so sorry you feel bad.
It seems there a bit too many pressures sitting on you at the moment. I think LaR‘s advice is very good. Now is not the time to address every battle, make little steps. First priority is feeling better. I think you would feel better immediately if you solved the parent situation. It’s good advice to try to be the bigger person, it’s solely for your benefit of feeling better.
After that, take care of your wellbeing, check your blood for vitamins etc. Physical wellbeing will influence your psyche.
And don’t try to solve the big limerence problem in one go now that you are down.
I wish you the best and that you feel better soon!
To JMMO:
I certainly understand needing LE as a purpose in life. This is part of the reason I am struggling with NC so much. It’s as if LO is the sun and I have been orbiting around him.
I hesitate to say this about your parents, because I am sure you have heard it before. They will be gone someday and you will miss them. Having said that, this doesn’t fix whatever issues you have, which are very real and may be substantial.
Take as long as necessary to deal with the grief. You can’t just flip a switch. I still get sad when I think of my parent who died years ago. I’m sure people will understand. It’s normal to go through these things while grieving.
Thanks SL. That’s very comforting .
Hi @jmmo
oh my…i have just had a lot on my plate these last couple of days so i have not checked in. i am sorry i wasn’t there for you, friend.
i just wanted to let you know i am getting caught up on what you’ve posted, and will reply…i just want to read through everything.
at a very quick read of your post on june 10– i will just say — as you know, i too, am chronic, and i understand. i am thinking a lot about this, in my life, as well.
hugs and i’ll get caught up today.
x
csc, blp, fellow cl (chronic lim)
csc
Don’t feel pressured my beautiful blp. I know you’re there as I hope you know I am for you.
Jmmo blp xx
Hi all
I am feeling less desperate. I’m sorry to say that I almost felt like doing something drastic the other day, not dying, but something that could remove the pain. I don’t know what. I am calmer now.
What I cannot understand is why the iDoH (©️ 🚜) is hurting so much after all this time. Why am I now feeling that void so acutely? A question for therapy later.
I have taken your advice, my LwL family and offered an olive twig (as opposed to branch!). We’ll co-exist for a while until it blows over.
I have discovered that xLO is absent from work. I’m wondering if she’s ill. How awful is it that I don’t care? I am of course assuming it’s nothing serious. It’s so unlike me to feel like that about anyone, let alone someone whom my Limerant brain thought I was in love with…. But I genuinely feel nothing. No compassion or sympathy. Anyone who knows me would think there was something badly wrong.
I suppose there is.
Love to you all, especially my LwL family:
csc
LaR
Mila
Snow
Bewitched
Norma D
S.anon
The olive twig was to my parents.
I wish that I actually knew some if you. But I guess that would defeat the whole object.
Dear Jmmo,
We’re here, so talk to us.
I think the DoH is one of the toughest parts to address for people who’s limerence arose due to other issues. As you have identified, the limerence kicked-in because of general issues and not because LO was particularly special. She was a distraction from those other issues. Now you’re cured of her, the issues remain. I was exactly the same and one of the things I have needed to do was make a few ‘tweaks’ to address my issues.
For me, the issues were a lack of feeling happy and connected to others in my life. I was too stressed at work, I was grieving some very tough family bereavements, and I was distant from my nearest and dearest. I was fortunate that I had a great SO and a beautiful child and I had good friends. But I felt disconnected from them. I was also middle-aged and hormonal. I didn’t have hobbies as I was too stressed and had no time anyway (working 60 hours a week). My job was rewarding but less than it used to be. I was wondering ‘is this it??’. Enter LO to enchant me away and hook me on self-medication with lovely romantic fantasy thoughts.
Nothing deep-rooted was wrong for me, so I felt that therapy would not help. But other people may have more specific traumas, PTSD, estrangements, etc, that make therapy useful. The tweaks that I made were: reducing ambition at work so that I had more time for get back to my core connections, friends and family, and anyone else that I liked 🙂 I haven’t taken on more hobbies, just devoted time to little projects around the house and garden. Its made me feel happier and more open to people – I’ve also gotten healthier – which is so important in my age group. But that’s me. Other things may float your boat and the trick is to find them. I didn’t go for therapy as I had nothing I thought needed addressing there (I’ve been very lucky). Therapy can address issues – even smaller things – where you are getting in your own way (self sabotage, etc)?
A big thing is that are also grieving right now. As my sister said to me at the time when this was happening to us “Its a sh1t sandwich!”. Everyone needs to be nice to you right now (tell them I said so!). That rawness and sensitivity passes in its own sweet time. I like to think of myself as ‘hard as nails’ but, honestly, for at least 6 months I was very sensitive due to the grief.
Thinking of you today, dear Jmmo. Take good care of yourself and come talk to us when you can.
Bx
Jmmo,
Thanks for the name-check!
I’m not going to write a lot in reply, as Bewitched has already said it best, not for the first time!! (Hi B 👋, how are you keeping?!).
I’ll just add that I’m glad you at least feel you can reach out to this community. You should continue to do that, even if it feels bad and like “I’m repeating myself”. I lose track of how many times I said the same things in these coffeehouses while I was going through DoH, and still always received good support.
Do you feel you’re still at iDoH stage then? I wondered if your recent low mood is vDoH happening?
All the best for now,
🚜
Hi LaR
Yes I think you’re right actually – it is vDoH!
Thanks for the support as always.
⛺️
Not trying to interrupt but my curiosity is getting the best of me. I know DoH in this context isn’t the Department of Health.
Hi Adam,
DOH = Death of Hope, otherwise known as the grey rock phase…
Some of us (I am counting you, MJ, Sammy and a few others here) your sense of humour never lets you down, even in the dreaded DoH phase. You always make me laugh, anyway.
Greetings and thanks for bringin’ it!
Bx
PS 👋👋👋👋 back at ya LaR! I am well and will write an update soon
To add, DoH (death of hope) is Dr L’s term, not one I invented.
Just to complicate matters, I sometimes split it in my comments into Intellectual Death of Hope (iDoH) – where we *know* intellectually that it’s going nowhere, versus “Visceral Death of Hope” (vDoH) where we properly *feel* (and sort of accept) it in our veins that it’s going nowhere. I felt the two deaths of hope happen at different times for me.
Hi my friends,
How coincidental I was just thinking about DoH earlier today and wondering where I am in it.
Then I visit LwL and this thread is the first I read. Ha ha !
(I have been away for a while, mostly sitting and staring at “grey rocks” it seems )
Based on LaR’s description, yes to iDoH, not yet vDoH for me, but getting there.
I was wondering if there is a past tense acronym also
to really close the door on it. You know when one has fully accepted that ‘Hope is dead, long live freedom’.
Or maybe it’s not needed, and stick to viewing it as a slow dissipation.
Now Bewitched has got me into a colour analogy with the phases of limerence: The glimmer being a sudden burst of the brightest light that is followed by an amazing rainbow of colours. But after a while, darkness falls and it can be the blackest of black at the lowest of moments. Followed by a slow, gradual, painful fade across fifty shades of grey which eventually, eventually just fade to nothing but a transparent memory.
Currently, I would say I am mid- grey.
Please substitute the words to ‘color’ and ‘gray’ as appropriate. I try to be inclusive 🩶
I’ll preface this post with the song Papa. If you go listening to the song that is me extracting one line from an otherwise bleak song. Which is why I didn’t post a link, but it is on youtube if you do want to listen to it.
In light of this conversation about the Death of Hope I’d quote Prince’s lyrics “and there’s always a rainbow at the end of every rain”.
It does seem hopeless sometimes. Limerence has wormed its way into our brain like the Ceti eel larvae in Wrath of Kahn. (Don’t blame me my aunt is a Trekie.) It turns us into slaves of it. But there is hope. Hope for overcoming these larvae that we feel we are powerless to do anything about.
I spent about half a day reading New Year Purpose yesterday, which was the first blog I posted in upon finding this place. If you are so inclined to check it out I’ll post the link. If I can get myself out of this for the most part, anyone can. I didn’t even recognize myself as I was reading my old posts. I was so far gone that it … let’s just say I will admit it’s not one of my better moments in life.
The Death of Hope for limerence means the Genesis of Hope for the rest of a happy limerent (hopefully) free life. I believe in ya’ll like ya’ll believed in me. My limerence got so bad that Dr L himself (in a different blog post) basically told me to take a break from here because I was so mired in limerence. Ya’ll got this.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/new-year-purpose/
⛺️,
I second 🐝 🧙♀️’s thought on your vDoH, the void hurts.
If I were you, I’d look into the void to see what is missing there and how to fill it bits by bits… It may hurt more when you stare at it, but it’s a necessary step to fill it eventually by yourself, with your therapist’s help.
I wish I have better tools, but not knowing your reality, that’s all I could think of in “theory” now — how on earth I’m becoming a theorist 😊
We’re all here, and hang it there!
❄️
❤️❤️
⛺️
❄️
Again your perceptiveness astounds me. That is exactly what we have been talking about today.
Bless you
⛺️
⛺️,
I did therapy work, on and off, over 10 years, so I learned how to examine my own mind without fearing to stare at IT, at things that bothered me (before it was always the “rootless” melancholy and longing…now, they’re gone. )
Then, I also meditate regularly, whenever I felt my physical body, “neurons” flared up, as if having drunk a pot of expresso. A focused meditation or energy work (even just 10-20 minutes) can make me to sense and then calm down my nerves.
People of many cultures have been practicing it for hundreds of years… (but little scientific data could show and prove how it worked).
Be patient and resilient to the pains. Good luck! 🫂
Try to make your mind and body both as your alleys/tools to gradually fill that “void”…
@jmmo
poor you. you have really been through it. and, having your parents say something that didn’t sit well is like the cherry on top.
i think the other lwl’ers gave you really great and thoughtful advice. actually, about 2 weeks ago, i think i felt a similar thing, as you are feeling now. a kind of overwhelm, sensitive-lost-ness…maybe…
i did speak it to my therapist. she understands limerence (she knew about it before i came to her). she said…”Have you considered just…taking a break?”
i had been sitting there, feeling like i had to solve everything. feeling like i had to start thinking of Solving My Life, Getting Back to It…etc.
and she made the point that i was exhausted, and my brain had been gone for an entire year, and that i should not expect myself to move mountains, either in my emotional life, my relationship, my work, or my personal insights.
she reminded me it was OK just to rest. and once i got that permission, and inspiration, my life felt a lot better for a while. it was restorative.
i would go home and think “i don’t have to solve SO right now” …i’d be at work and think “you don’t need to have a huge success this week”…i’d look at myself and think “you don’t need to socialize right now to seem “healthy”…just do your thing, quietly and slowly and that will be ok for now.
it was the respite i needed to reset. just that chance to say “it’s ok to let all this absorb.”
so, now, i feel a bit stronger (not much) and, i do know i have to integrate some of the things like @bewitched was talking about, in my own life. i need to find things that are My Own.
in some ways, i feel i can *almost see* why i have been a lifelong limerent. i feel…there has not been enough ME there. i have had no real sense of myself, no real relationship *with* myself, and only unto myself — and that made me not take myself…seriously. it made me vulnerable to believing a relationship or a person’s affection could somehow fix me, fix “it”.
this is a process, this…hopefully….mother of all rehabs.
i am feeling, these days, that i must develop this relationship with myself. i am meditating, and doing pranayama, which has been particularly helpful. i wonder, might you consider doing breath/energy work?
i know Snow mentioned it — and while it might seem intangible, it has very real effects. personally, my feeling was, if i am going to get to know myself, i need to know how to breathe. i barely know. and that is fundamental to being me. so, i am beginning there. as i see it, i have no other real goal right now — other than: learn to breathe (and stay nc which is not an issue atm).
anyway – just some thoughts.
to be continued, i hope….does any of this help? i hope i haven’t run on.
i’m glad you feel a bit restored today. i was amazed at how wiped out exhausted i was about a month ago – and it sounds like you’re battling that portion, yourself.
x
csc
@jmmo
i just had kind of a weird idea. what if…what if we did a thought experiment and started thinking of ourselves as lo’s (ok, we have no limerent to idolize us…) but, what if we did a mind-shift where we decide, for a day or two, to stop thinking of ourselves as these poor, damaged limerents, and start thinking of ourselves as potential Objects.
how would i live if i thought of myself that way?
i don’t mean to do this as a way to attract someone. i mean, to do it to experience what it’s like to not be so at the mercy of this force.
am i making any sense? i think i am going to try it. just for fun.
maybe taking the torture away i will feel like i can proceed with my life, without being on a chain.
x
your weird woo-woo blp
(you get the blp timing gives you, jmmo- you don’t get to pick haha)
csc
Oh wow! That’s a lightning bolt! My goodness! What an intriguing thought/idea!
Shall we see where that goes?
I hope you’re well my darling. I’m thinking of you
Hugs
Jmmo xx
Hey,
I feel like that too, sometimes. I think I’m somehow grieving the limerence, all the things that I hoped, all the time I spent on this, all the focus and energy, but mostly I think I miss hoping.
I do love my LO to. I have a job and a house. Yet if you’re writing this here, then maybe, like me, you’re missing friends with close emotional connections?
I have friends, but I don’t find it easy to tell them how I am, especially when I’m down. Also my closest friends are 400km away.
If you can, try talking to one of your friends? Even if it’s not one you’d necessarily talk about emotional stuff usually. Gotta start somewhere.
And in any case, hold on. One foot in front of the other for now is the objective.
Goodnight
Hi S.anon
Thank you.
“I feel like that too, sometimes. I think I’m somehow grieving the limerence, all the things that I hoped, all the time I spent on this, all the focus and energy, but mostly I think I miss hoping.” Yes, exactly. I don’t think it’s even the LEi miss, but you’re so right, it’s the hope. I feel as though I have nothing to hope for, to focus on, to distract me from the unhappiness caused by whatever this void is. I am in therapy to try to address that.
“I do love my LO to. I have a job and a house. Yet if you’re writing this here, then maybe, like me, you’re missing friends with close emotional connections?
I have friends, but I don’t find it easy to tell them how I am, especially when I’m down. Also my closest friends are 400km away.” This could be me to a tee. No, I don’t really. I have one friend here I can talk to, but not really about this. My others main friends are a similar distance away. But again, only one I could really have a conversation about this with.
I hope that you’re ok. Thanks for your supportive words.
Jmmo
Hi everyone who is acquainted with my story, an update, mostly written for myself-
I didn‘t read much on LwL in the last weeks, I’m sure I missed a lot, but at the same time I feel it did me some good to be away, somehow to define everything through the lense of limerence-related terms isn’t flexible enough and pulls me back. Also I simply had no time.
I’m back from the big business trip with my XLO, and it was a very exhausting experience. For almost the whole length of the trip I battled resentment, veered back and forth between avoiding him and trying to be friendly. I felt best when he wasn’t around, had a great time with other colleagues and simultaneously felt guilty when I saw his vulnerable and pained face. Of course he felt my avoidance, and I think he suffered through the whole trip, not only because of me but he also has physical problems etc., and I felt a mixture of guilt and resentment because I’m ultimately not responsible for his well-being but felt he blamed me. I got hooked on a very negative view of him and I thought the whole friendship was over now for me.
Only on the very last night it came to a head- of course I was the one who finally couldn’t resist hinting on the strained mood between us, and we had a talk in a very unreal setting, walking aimlessly through an exotic city at 2 o’clock at night and 28 degree Celsius , getting into a sudden tropical rainstorm etc.
The outcome is that I saw how really neurodivergent or whatever he is- he really cannot express himself, he cannot bend and communicate in expressive words, this kind of talk is completely beyond him ,and I respect that he stayed through all my kind of hard words and listened to every bit without getting aggressive or defensive, and even agreed with me on my assessment of him in many parts. His few very honest statements about how he feels at the moment helped me to see him properly. The talk was very good and helpful for me and let me finally feel closer to him again, but very straining for him, I think.
We had an (for him unusually) emotional final goodbye at the airport.
Now I‘m back on a more positive view of him, and while I can feel the danger of sliding back into the old limerent view, I think I can avoid it.
Still, the more friendly view and the acknowledgment of his unwavering affection for me opens the door a bit to old feelings of attraction, physical attraction crept back for example etc. The old train tracks are overgrown but still there.
Texting is more now, but I feel that going on like this in the old way (of constant regular texting) would do me no good and just light resentment again. I want to keep the friendly view but avoid getting too emotionally attached again.
The thing is that I think, the reason why I got so angry at him in the last months is simultaneously a blessing- his annoying inflexibility is on the other side the reason that he stays with me in spite of my shenanigans. Now that I’m out of the really deep woods I can see that the anger and resentment I felt and let loose on him were not quite fair. I mean I was right , he didn’t behave like any other friend I have, he cannot express emotions and warmth, he seems to be unable to give what I need from time to time. Still, it only hurt me so much because I was too attached to him, because I was limerent, and that’s the part I leave out in my explanations. Which is not wholly fair. But disclosing it fully wouldn’t help anyone.
It would give him the whole picture, but he wouldn’t grasp the whole picture. His mind is too inflexible, he wouldn’t understand the concept of limerence, and it would change everything to the worst.
Someone more perspective would have called me out on it a long time ago (and himself too, since I would call it kind of limerence or obsession on his side too). As it is, I feel a bit guilty for unleashing my critic or pain on him without the whole explanation. But I tried to convey to him that I know that I might not he fair, that I know I‘ve no right to false expectations.
And I do think I have no right to expect things he cannot give, but on the other side, he needs to hear my side since his way of being unempathetic messes up his life in other respects too, and maybe it’s good I force him to think about that a bit.
I don’t know. In the end, my two last LOs seem to be special persons in my life apart from limerence, and it’s quite a work to keep them in my life as special persons without letting limerent shades clouding my sight.
I see limerence now as something that has its roots in a very real connection, be it mostly physical (LO1)or on a more overall emotional level, but is in the end and in its entity wholly my own and a very egotistical dependence/addiction that creeps in because of my innermost problems. But still, the root is a real connection to a real person, that might look different to the glimmery perfect person my limerence made him, but still is a real person with a connection to me.
My assessment of this trip with XLO isn’t completed, I wrote this to help me with it.
I feel a danger to slip back into old patterns of dependency and following resentment with XLO. Not sure if I should break communication patterns now actively or just try to stick to my benign but not dependent mood and just answer/text friendly.
But I think I‘ve got my instincts on the right alert now, and my gut will tell me the right way.
I‘m sorry some of you go through hard times, I haven’t followed the reasons why, but I wish you all the best, it can only get better, and you are all strong and amazing people who will find their right way in the end.
🔥 🍊 🍷,
This is indeed a profound analysis, and also accurate (from my perspective over 1.5 years). I like your verbal expressions on how you have developed, perplexed, and finally captured your evolving emotions, thoughts, and realizations in this Limerence journey. I think I understand everything you are conveying to us and am deeply touched by some of your revelations.
I don’t have much advice, just one caution: actions can lead to unexpected or unplanned emotions. So please watch how you feel with your resumed texting, it has potential to lead you back to LE, despite you determination not to slip back.
Good lucks! And welcome back to our 🅰️Ⓜ️🅾️🅾️®️! 💕
Thanks Snow!
I feel that while there opens up a path to the old woods, I won’t walk on it. Simply because I see the danger of renewed old texting pattern, I won’t engage in it. I think I learned some stuff on my journey. It‘ll all be good.
I hope you are fine Snow, haven’t been following posts here!
🔥 🍊 🍷,
“The thing is that I think, the reason why I got so angry at him in the last months is simultaneously a blessing- his annoying inflexibility is on the other side the reason that he stays with me in spite of my shenanigans. Now that I’m out of the really deep woods I can see that the anger and resentment I felt and let loose on him were not quite fair. “
This is the part that touched me most…. You’ve finally got it! — that some of your expectations of his treatment of you were too “high” for him, although normal for your other friends. He’ll remain as your special friend, no matter what you’ve said or will say, trust me on this…
I’m doing quite well overall, except some realistic (medical), icky issues I have to deal with (mentioned to 🐝 🧙♀️ back in April). Just wish me a big, good luck….
So glad to “see” your face here… 🫂!
Mila
Welcome back. I read your post, it sounded tough. I think that you should be very proud of yourself.
In terms of the texting, I hope you don’t mind adding my opinion. It’s really tempting, really really tempting I know. But really, I wouldn’t. It’s a slippery slope and will hinder your recovery.
Whilst you’ve been away, csc, LaR and I have talked about us all being in rehab. We’re all trying to de-programme ourselves from that high, that longing for something we know is bad. Texting him will only hinder that process. In particular, the potential effects of getting drawn in to an extended texting phase would be really risky.
You are so strong, I would just hate to see you become vulnerable again.
I hope I haven’t overstepped. I’m tripling oh ad to see you back.
Jmmo x
Hi Snow,
yes, I creep closer to accepting him as he is, but I‘m still not sure if this will work in the future. I can accept him and still say that it‘s not enough for a friendship for me. Which would be ok too, I aim for a state of mind where I can either let go for this reason, or keep the friendship without more expectations, both without pain, please. On this trip I realized I wasn’t quite there yet, but after our talk I got closer to peace of mind with this friendship.
It’s hard though.
The thing is, he‘s, as you say, not like other friends, and it means expecting less from him and kind of guiding him along etc, it’s a bit of work. With SO and kids, this kind of accepting other ways of reacting/thinking, guiding along, letting go, helping etc is taking place constantly since our lives are completely intertwined, and I don’t know if I want to take on another responsibility like that. the way XLO is wired, the friendship would be like that, me always a bit more active, guiding him along, accepting etc. , a bit like with a child. I mean, it would be me going his way all the time because he‘s not able to go my way. I‘m still not sure if I want that.
Sorry to hear about the medical stuff, I think I missed your posts about it. Me, I’ll go to a chiropractor tomorrow because something is off with my neck..
Hi Jmmo,
Thanks for your input. I think you are right, texting on a daily basis like in the excruciating past won’t do me any good. He‘s someone who needs routines and he might try to set up this texting routine again.
The thing is, I noticed that too much effort to block him out is also not good for me. Reducing texting is what I did with an effort for the last months. Effort, because it requires keeping the balance between reducing but not seeming rude, and that requires so much thought and will. It means spending energy on this again. I aim for a mindset where I just don’t care too much about texting or not.
I think now that I‘m not so far from getting there. I feel the possibility to slide back into resentment more than the possibility to slide back into „positive“ needy limerence, but I’m quite fed up with this resentment business. I think I can manage!
I will busy myself now with living healthier (no sports and eating very much and unhealthy on this trip..)and facing a new challenge in my job, and not think too much about this.
I think you had a rough time just now? I hope you are feeling better!
Mila 🔥 🍊 🍷,
“I can accept him and still say that it‘s not enough for a friendship for me. Which would be ok too, I aim for a state of mind where I can either let go for this reason, or keep the friendship without more expectations, both without pain, please. “
I think that’s a reasonable aim, and you will eventually keep the balance with peace, but without pain. “Keeping the friendship without more expectations” may take time to get there, but definitely can be achieved with just a little bit of Stoic mindset.
“On this trip I realized I wasn’t quite there yet, but after our talk I got closer to peace of mind with this friendship.
It’s hard though.”
I’m so glad that you get closer towards peace… I sensed something was happening with you in the trip, since we did not hear from you at all.
“The thing is, he‘s, as you say, not like other friends, and it means expecting less from him and kind of guiding him along etc, it’s a bit of work. “
Why do you feel “guiding him along…” can you just “expecting less” or not expecting at all but accept whatever he can give? You’re good friends, but not a couple with your “lives completely intertwined” (as you say), he has his own SO and family. You sometimes sounded (just my feeling 😊) like a “mother” to him…
“I mean, it would be me going his way all the time because he‘s not able to go my way. I‘m still not sure if I want that.”
Now it seems to be a fact, you need to decide whether you can accept and live with that fact. Trying to change others, especially a neurodivergent, can be more futile than in LE with an unavailable LO! It sounds like he’s already tried his best, could you just appreciate whatever you’ve got from him?
Let me tell you a fable I grew up with:
A poor village hunter had a fall in the mountain and hurt his leg. He crawled into a cave, and found two hungry tiger cubs in it. The hunter could not move further due to his wound. He felt sorry for the cubs whining, so he gave all his human food to the cubs. Then he passed out due to the bleeding.
When he woke up again, he found the tigress was licking his wounds, and some food crumbs near the cubs. He almost passed out again, but the tigress continued licking his wounds calmly. He stayed there for 3 days, and then she walked with him down to his village.
The villagers caught the tigress and wanted to kill her due to their fear. The hunter told his story and begged to let tigress go. No villagers believed him, so he took them to the cave. Then the villagers released the tigress.
The question for us kids: why didn’t tigress eat the hunter?
“I’ll go to a chiropractor tomorrow because something is off with my neck.”
Did chiropractor work? How is your neck now?
Snow,
„You’re good friends, but not a couple with your “lives completely intertwined” (as you say), he has his own SO and family. You sometimes sounded (just my feeling 😊) like a “mother” to him…“
Exactly, exactly! That’s why I struggle with his way of the friendship, I feel sometimes I take on the role of wife or mother instead of friend, and I don’t like that, but it’s somehow in the dynamics. It’s because I have to initiate almost everything, I seem responsible for the mood, I have to coax honest conversation out of him, I cheer him up , I give advice about his physical problems etc.
I think his wife took on the role of mother too. I kind of understand why but feel uncomfortable to reveal too much of his personal life here.
I know that I should just live with the fact that he won’t change and that it’s his way or nothing, but I’m still not 100% sure about how to deal with it. Getting there, though.
It seems the tigress understood that he kept her kids alive so she spared him and then he spared her again, but my brain is still too foggy to see how it might apply to my situation?
I went to the chiropractor and feel better now, everything still very tense. Might book a massage for tomorrow.
Mila 🔥 🍊 🍷,
We were told to appreciate whatever others can give— the hunter gave all his human food to the cubs, all he could, and tigress understood.
Out of her gratitude, spared his life. And he Hers. The ending story was that the tigress got along with the entire village and often protected them from other beasts.
I guess I was saying to appreciate all your Xlo could, not expect what he can’t.
Hi Snow,
alright, didn’t get that out of the story immediately.
You are right, but to reach that mindset I still need some readjustment in the importance of his role in my life and my expectations. But I think I’m on a good way.
Thanks for the input!
Mila,
It sounds like you’ve had some deep learnings and new understandings.
Yes, THIS, all of this:
“Now I‘m back on a more positive view of him, and while I can feel the danger of sliding back into the old limerent view, I think I can avoid it.
Still, the more friendly view and the acknowledgment of his unwavering affection for me opens the door a bit to old feelings of attraction, physical attraction crept back for example etc. The old train tracks are overgrown but still there.”
“my two last LOs seem to be special persons in my life apart from limerence, and it’s quite a work to keep them in my life as special persons without letting limerent shades clouding my sight.”
❤️ do you fancy co-writing the book on this with me?! We started chatting about this wish of both of ours a year ago now, and yet here we still are, wrestling, it sounds like, with pretty parallel dilemmas 🤦♂️
Hi LaR,
Not sure yet if my contribution to that book would be helpful😅
I‘m more at peace now with this, very glad that the resentment faded, but I feel that now is an open situation where I should take good care to remain in the peaceful non-addictive mindset.
This trip really took it out of me, I have a constant latent headache from neck tension and bone-tired.
How are things with your LO? I seem to remember that you only met at work with an occasional coffee thrown in, but no contact in between?
LAR,
my thoughts started flowing while writing to Snow and Jmmo, these are also for you if you need more material for the book;)
Hi Mila,
You seem very level headed and in tune with yourself about it all now ☺️
I’ll respond to a few of your points to me, as well some to Snow and Jmmo.
“I‘m more at peace now with this, very glad that the resentment faded, but I feel that now is an open situation where I should take good care to remain in the peaceful non-addictive mindset”
That sounds a pretty good place to be, if you can hold it there. It has taken you a while, so well done for your patience and continued attempts to find that point.
“I think you are right, texting on a daily basis like in the excruciating past won’t do me any good. He‘s someone who needs routines and he might try to set up this texting routine again”
I think this texting part – how to balance it so it’s OK for you both – has always been a big issue in your LE/post-LE, because of the distance between you. He probably won’t/can’t change how he’d ideally like that side to be, from what you say. So now it is about – can you get a balance that’s acceptable to you as well? And a balance that with time, he can come to accept?
“Still, the more friendly view and the acknowledgment of his unwavering affection for me opens the door a bit to old feelings of attraction, physical attraction crept back for example etc”
That unwavering affection and loyalty to your friendship (despite the fact you’ve been sometimes been ‘off’ with him, for reasons you understand well) seem a big deal. I don’t know about you, but I don’t find people very often who are that loyal to me. This quality alone seems a great reason to try and keep some kind of a friendship, if only you can avoid it triggering limerence. I understand from experience exactly why it could trigger any lingering limerent feelings, though.
“The thing is, I noticed that too much effort to block him out is also not good for me”
Me too. Through the undertones in some of my posts a couple of months ago, you will have heard what it was like for me when I was doing that too strongly.
“How are things with your LO? I seem to remember that you only met at work with an occasional coffee thrown in, but no contact in between?”
I don’t want to jinx it, but they’re pretty good. I had a purposeful and complete NC outside work for 3 months but still a lot of work contact, broken up a couple of decent total NC periods (inc no texts) where one of us took leave. It has now relaxed a bit so that we have occasional lunches/coffees during work, either in a group or the two of us. There was long precedent of both things way before I turned limerent, so none of that is as unusual or worrisome as it might sound. The absence of it was almost weirder (presumably to both people) than a small amount of it, if that makes sense.
The break seems to has been enough to shift the worst of the limerence. I’m not trying to say it has gone and could never be reignited (that would be a lie) – I have to stay watchful. But I’m not feeling either addicted or withdrawn now, or like I always want to initiate contact like before. I’ve become more aware of how she triggers me (with what behaviours and situations) and how to avoid that happening as much as I can. It feels like a fairly peaceful co-existence for now.
These days, I am less at the resentment end of the continuum, more at the end like you after your trip – happy with where we are, but needing to be careful not to slip back. Sidelining her too much really wasn’t doing me good. The work setup is such that if her and I weren’t getting on, there are huge knock on effects into atmosphere and productivity at work.
I would hazard a guess that there is equal commitment of the involved people in both our situations, to an ongoing friendship, but that MFF’s behaviours make it easier for us to achieve that, than your xLO’s behaviours do. But from what you say, he can’t help or change much how he behaves – so it bodes well that you’re both committed to getting to a good place, despite the barriers.
Do keep us posted while we continue to gather enough material for the book 😊 I know it can be difficult to decide how much time to spend here, or not, during recovery!
Hi LaR,
Thanks for your response. I think too that I’m in a good place, although I’m still in a strange jet lag- induced mood where I’m exhausted and not completely arrived yet, and not yet sure if I opened the door a bit too much.
It sounds that you found a good pattern with your LO. While it seems an advantage that my XLO is removed from my daily life now, I think now it would be easier to find a pattern when we would see each other regularly. But actually, the disruption of this pattern and his leaving were the triggers of limerence, so I shouldn’t wonder.
I do think, you will manage well, you already seem to. Do you think you are already in a place where you could handle it, should she spring a surprise at you like addressing the elephant?
Can I ask (also other Lwl members), how would you handle the texting, since it’s the basis of our communication now, as you observed rightly?
I know, everyone has a different texting habit, some of my friends leave texts unread for a while day and check them once in the morning, some leave them read but unanswered for hours, some respond immediately etc.
Me, I tend to read and respond as soon as possible. I like to be „done“ with it and not sitting at the back of my mind as unfinished business, (also I‘m too much on my phone..).
Now, after the trip, XLO texts about once or twice a day, asking how the jet lag is etc, when I respond he leaves it until the next day or whenever the „once or twice“ pattern is reached, and texts again. While I think it’s normal to have a flurry of texts on the first days after the trip, with other friends they would naturally die down after a few days. With him, I feel him setting up a pattern again. This morning he asked about sleep, I answered, now he replies and tells me he‘s at the dentist‘s it whatever (haven’t opened it yet, only read the beginning).
Sorry for the detailed stuff, but how should I deal with it? Leave it unread until tomorrow and/or respond solely
with an emoji, these were my tools of reducing texting in the last months. But when I think of starting that again, I feel a bit exhausted.
I‘m tempted to strike an honest note again and just tell him that I would prefer less texts. But it will come over as critics again after I already told him in so many words that I don’t know if I trust him as a real friend etc. I don’t want to deal blows again. But then, honesty seemed to have paid off in our talk.
Maybe I’ll just give at a few more days and he will reduce himself. The thing is not that I feel molested or bothered, it’s that I don’t want to be pulled back into this daily pattern that I get addicted to and get my thoughts hooked on him. Can I say something like that without confiding to limerence? I don’t think do, and so it might probably be best not to open that honesty box again, better to resume the drudgery of reducing texts by replying sparsely etc?
Any thoughts on it appreciated, although I know that I will find my answers myself as usual, but I love your input.
Made a few typos or autocorrect mistakes and language slips here, sorry.
Mila,
“Do you think you are already in a place where you could handle it, should she spring a surprise at you like addressing the elephant?”
I will think about a more detailed reply to this and other points in your message. Can I check – by ‘addressing the elephant’, what sort of thing did you mean, for example?
I meant suddenly getting honest about mutual attraction, for example.
Hmm Mila, I love a tricky question but that one is very tricky, and with two parts to the answer.
1. I just have no fear that she will do that now. If that elephant was going to be poked, it would have been long ago. There are too many understood safeguards in place for her to do that now.
2. If I got the above really wrong and she did approach it, what I’d want to do was admit mutual attraction but also discuss that it is not going anywhere (she would know it) and also reiterate how much she matters to me as a friend and I how much I’d want that continue. I would only ever disclose this if asked.
But that goes against so much advice from DrL, other posters, and so many of the stories on LwL! I’d want to be honest with MFF, not lie and go “well I’m not attracted to you”. Thinking about that from her point of view, she would have been very brave to raise it, and in that event wouldn’t deserve an untrue ‘smackdown’ from me. She would deserve the truth. But there would be big a question on whether that alone could turn embers into a raging fire, even if being well-intentioned and not meaning to.
Let me flip this round Mila. Genuinely, what would you do if (hypothetically), your LO ‘poked the elephant’ in that way?
Hi LaR,
my XLO would never ever raise that topic. I‘m sure he‘s been attracted to me in a more than friends way, but he isn’t aware of it simply because that possibility doesn’t exist in his world. It’s to do with his neurodivergence of which I’m very sure now.
If he would raise that topic he would suddenly be more like the non-existent person I was limerent for, a sensitive and self-aware person.
But let’s think about it anyway.
I think it would depend on the way he would say it. If it would be in an insensitive manner like accusing me of trying to seduce him or having fallen for him without him feeling the same for me, I would probably deny it, because he would prove my negative picture of him to be true (if you remember, my trouble is/was having an overly positive and an overly negative view of him and not sure which might be more true), and to this insensitive person I wouldn’t feel I owe the truth.
If he would be honest and refer to mutual attraction in an intelligent and sensitive way, I would admit to it. If he had the guts to touch that topic it would be serious gaslighting to deny it and could do damage to him and to the friendship.
I know it would be playing with fire, but then I‘m very sure that he would never ever let anything happen, it would destroy his world view,and I do hope that I wouldn’t let anything happen, but I‘m less sure of myself than of him – I wouldn’t initiate but maybe couldn’t resist if he would. I’m actually glad that I can trust him not to initiate anything.
So I think it would be better to be honest to keep the friendship. Not to be honest would destroy it, I think.
Mila,
“I’m actually glad that I can trust him not to initiate anything.”
Me too. I trust her with it implicitly (there is a reason my limerence landed on her of all the possibles). I am so glad you and I are both dealing only in hypotheticals here.
“he would suddenly be more like the non-existent person I was limerent for …”
So you reckon the limerence created that big a distortion from the real to fantasy version of him?
“If he had the guts to touch that topic it would be serious gaslighting to deny it”
Massively agree. Both xLOe wouldn’t deserve it. All my learnings from other LwL stories where there was disclosure made me stop in my tracks trying to answer you at first. But I would have to be honest (if asked) and deal with the consequences later. I just wouldn’t and couldn’t gaslight her.
“I wouldn’t initiate but maybe couldn’t resist if he would.”
That’s why I asked you to clarify what you meant about elephants. I thought you might have meant ‘if she came onto you physically’. There was a time when I am not totally sure I could have resisted that if I’m frank with you – probably, but not certain. I am more confident now. That’s just never going to happen either though 😓.
I’m grateful to you for the amount of sharing of experiences we’ve done – it helped me understand the different stages better and navigate through some of them. Also grateful for your belief that we could somehow sort this out without ending up terribly unhappy or in a hot mess.
I’ll reply again in a bit about texting, though others on here may do better on that topic.
In fact, I’ve got more questions than answers about the texting thing, for now. I hope you don’t mind.
Instinct says that there is no other way than gradually reduce based on the natural fall-off with more time after the trip, and a bit of purposeful reduction on your part (not to nothing, though).
But – answers to these questions based on history might help me or others do better:
– if you directly tell him ‘reduce texts’, what has been the effect of that in the past? Does he ignore it and keep texting, reduce, or stop?
– if you increase reply delays and/or reduce initiation, which of the above effects does it have on his texting?
– what is an ideal texting frequency for you now?
– have you ever got to that before, and how?
– do you ever get to the point where you (excluding your limerence) wants to initiate a text to him, or does he always get there first?
„So you reckon the limerence created that big a distortion from the real to fantasy version of him?“
Well, maybe I’m wrong here, that was always the main problem: which picture of him is the right one? I assumed that he as any other „normal“ person would realize what’s going on, as much as he would be able to give me emotional support when I needed it. He wasn’t able to give the latter in the way I needed it, though, and I got a better picture of his neurodivergence now, so I guess he has unbelievably not acknowledged to himself the more-than-friends attraction here, while simultaneously being more dependent/addicted than me.
If I would force him to talk about it, I think he would maybe acknowledge it, but it would scare and disturb him and he would immediately force it back into non-acknowledgement.
In my limerent mind, he would be the same person but able to acknowledge it and take responsibility for it. I don’t think it‘s a much bigger distortion than most limerents experience in their expectations of their LOs.
„That’s just never going to happen either though 😓.“
Very sure on my side, since now also all possibilities for intimate exchanges are removed anyway since the trip is over and we‘ll see each other from time to time but only with families, I guess. Not so sure on your side because she‘s still very much in your life, but i count on your ongoing ex-tanglement from temptation.
Do you feel that your feelings for her diminished since you are not limerent any more, I mean only the feelings for a friend of course? Or do you like her with the same strength only without being addicted? I‘m asking because now I feel stronger for him again, but not sure if it’s dangerous and it was better to be in the „I don’t care that much any more“ state.
Yes, it’s so good to talk to someone in a similar situation. Thanks for your thoughtful replies and questions!
Will get to the texting later.
Hi LaR,
„– if you directly tell him ‘reduce texts’, what has been the effect of that in the past? Does he ignore it and keep texting, reduce, or stop?“
I‘ve never told him to reduce texts in the past. I‘ve told him in my lengthy email that I see a dysbalance between our superficial daily texting and the depth of friendship that is apparently not there, and that, if we cannot be friends on a certain level of emotional support then I don’t want that frequency. But never said to directly reduce texting.
I think if I did that, he would „obey“ like he always follows my lead somehow, but I guess it would hurt him, and I‘m not sure if he would understand it the right way.
„if you increase reply delays and/or reduce initiation, which of the above effects does it have on his texting?“
It had the effect of him seeking a new reduced pattern but it feels intentional or forced to me- he leaves my texts unread for a certain amount of time and answers in a more prolonged distance, but with a long text. He tries to adapt, I think, but it feels a bit artificial as opposed to other natural text patterns with friends. But maybe thats ok and what I should aim for in the beginning.
„- what is an ideal texting frequency for you now?“
No idea. I think I just want a natural flow with natural pauses etc like with other friends, no routine-2texts- a- day or even 2 texts- a -week. Nothing that feels like routine or duty. But this, which is not good for me, is the very thing that gives him a sense of security, I guess.
We had a natural thing when he was still working here, no limerence in sight. But then it was like in your case, we were seeing each other on a regular basis anyway.
„– do you ever get to the point where you (excluding your limerence) wants to initiate a text to him, or does he always get there first?“
The thing is, when there was this routine, I was on one side vexed, on the other side, if he suddenly didn’t text, I wondered and felt the need to text. That’s why I don’t like the routine stuff. At the moment think I could just leave it and not feel urged to text. Since limerence passed, I think it‘s 99%him who initiated.
Today I actually have to call him. After today I think I might resume the reducing game. If I feel too vexed by it, I still have the possibility to get honest and ask him to reduce contact a bit.
I read your other post too, but no time at the moment, will get back to it later.
Thanks for the questions, they help me a lot.
“We had a natural thing when he was still working here, no limerence in sight. But then it was like in your case, we were seeing each other on a regular basis anyway.”
I understand how his prolonged moving away was such a trigger for you.
Our situations are different, but trust me when I tell you that trying to end my limerence with her in close proximity at work is one of the hardest slogs I’ve ever been through. I don’t admit it very easily when I’m struggling and only gave you all here a heavily curated version of just how much I struggled with this from Feb-April this year.
“But this, which is not good for me, is the very thing that gives him a sense of security, I guess.”
I think now you understand better why he needs routine, you might just have to bend a bit here to find a happy medium.
I guess we have to ask ourselves the questions “has my life been better or worse for having him/her in it?” and then a similar one about the future. I suspect your answer and mine would be similar. I don’t like everything about MFF (she has some infuriating aspects in fact). And yet ……
“For me, it’s maybe, shallow enough, his absolute prowess in his job, which requires quite a lot of sensitivity”
I alsp find MFF is superb at her/our job (we are on par). One thing I appreciate is that we challenge each other about how we do the job, nearly always in good spirit and in the name of bettering the other, never “this is my way and you must do the work the same”. I think this is another lim-trigger now I think about it – I really dig a person who has total confidence in their way of working but also respects my way. We can have a very lively exchange of views about it, challenge the other, but never once has it created hostility. I value any person that can tick along with me like that.
Mila,
“I‘m asking because now I feel stronger for him again, but not sure if it’s dangerous and it was better to be in the „I don’t care that much any more“ state.
I’ll try and answer your question below based on my own experiences (this book is coming together well 😀). But my instinct in your case is that any feeling of more addiction should fall back down again as time elapses after the trip and you head back into family life.
The big thing to watch might be how much the feeling of more permanent separation (eg not seeing him again without families around) could be fanning the embers. I am thinking here of the parallel to when he protractedly left the job and that set the lim-train off down the tracks. I’d be a bit watchful if I were you at this time, but I hope and suspect it will fade back.
Maybe what we’re both learning is that these embers take a long time to go out … and we might not even *want* them out completely?
“Do you feel that your feelings for her diminished since you are not limerent any more, I mean only the feelings for a friend of course? Or do you like her with the same strength only without being addicted?”
Another brilliant question! I wish I could answer in a couple of words but I will need to take a deeper dive to give you a realistic take.
When I was going through the 3 months of withdrawing (LC and sometimes NC) I felt mildly negative towards her and also towards myself about it. That bit has now passed.
Several things are different now from before that, for example: no manic highs and meltdown lows; she is not permanently on my mind when I’m not with her; she doesn’t interfere much at all in my head when I’m with SO; I used to hope she’d text me at weekends or on evenings, or think about initiating texts with her – now I don’t hope for texts or give initiation much thought (but this is very different for me than you, as texts are secondary to me seeing her).
When I’m with her, if this makes sense, I can sometimes now ‘watch the show’ like an observer, more than being a participant in it. I’ll find I say to myself “ah, there is something that would have triggered me before” instead of being triggered by it. Time out and all the analysis I have done on LwL have helped. Importantly, I no longer have hope that we’ll be anything more.
But the fact is, I did feel miserable when I was in the withdrawal spell and wasn’t treating her as a friend at all (note to other readers, this is very much only a statement about my LE, not anyone else’s)…
… there are certain facts and vulnerabilities about her (not neurodivergence, by the way) that mean she needs caring for by her friends in certain ways. These things aren’t massive undertakings, more just ways of relating to her. But she is very guarded about who she tells that to – she is a “hard surface, soft center” type of person. I was in a very small number of people that broke the surface and were entrusted with some of that. It felt very wrong and conflicting to have to withdraw that for a while (to get out of limerence) without being able to verbalise to her properly why I was doing it (I had a bit of a go at explaining in a ‘lite’ indirect way).
I think the strength of feeling for her as a friend remained but maybe reduced just a little. I do still care for her as a friend a lot. She has never done anything to deserve otherwise.
The knowledge that I can’t put as much into the friendship as I was doing, or expect as much back, has sunk in. The correct amount I can put in is higher than I was giving during the death of hope and withdrawal, lower than when I was limerent. I don’t think it is easy to calibrate it just right.
I have had one minor and one bigger wobble where I could feel the attraction feelings sticking their head back above the parapet, but again there was that ‘observer more than active participant’ element to that. These moments have connected to times where she has affirmed, in words and deeds, her continued belief in our friendship. Seemingly from those, the temporary withdrawal bit has not damaged it in her mind – I thought it must have done. Hearing it was really validating and a bit triggering at the same time.
It helps me at the moment just to write that out, but I hope there is some stuff there that might help you too. Hope it starts to settle 🤞Recent developments sound positive.
Hi LaR,
Thanks for explaining how things are for you. It sounds good in my ears and not that different of where I am at. I called him today and also had coffee with another friend and a communication with another another friend, and finally the call didn’t feel that different from the other interactions , if you know what I mean. I connected with all three of them and felt I care for them , but in a relaxed way and also still being aware of their not so pleasant sides without bothering too much about it. Not taking everything so personal as I did when limerent.
Now I think it would be perfect to not hear from him for at least a couple of days or a week, and then have some relaxed check-in from time to time, but I know he will try to communicate more often.
I think now that the important thing isn’t how often he texts, but my mindset. If I don’t care too much , I will find a natural pattern of not responding if it’s too much etc., I‘ll simply be too busy and not think about it until much later etc., instead of forcing myself not to answer.
I don’t know, but maybe it would really be a good thing to stop viewing him still in terms of limerence all the time. This friendship should be a bit less in the foreground of my life, lose a bit of importance in my mind, and things will solve themselves.
That’s maybe what‘ll happen or is just happening to you.
Would you say the main triggers are when she states that you and your friendship are very important to her, or what would the main triggers be?
For me, it’s maybe, shallow enough, his absolute prowess in his job, which requires quite a lot of sensitivity and competence, and the rare moments he touches me of his own initiative (hugs etc), because he seems to shun all kind of physical contact, there’s an invisible wall around him. These are the moments I soften- seeing him working (also, eye contact while working with me- something I avoided like hell on the trip which hurt him , I think) or touching me without my initiative.
But now I’m observing this like you described it, and can see it from the outside and get it back to a normal occurrence, something I like about a friend, if you know what I mean.
Mila,
“Would you say the main triggers are when she states that you and your friendship are very important to her, or what would the main triggers be?”
Yes, that would be about *the* main trigger. She accepts me unconditionally for the person I am. That hasn’t really come around that often.
“and the rare moments he touches me of his own initiative … there’s an invisible wall around him. These are the moments I soften”
I hear you.
:I think now that the important thing isn’t how often he texts, but my mindset.”
That sounds similar to the attitude I am taking. It’s about trying to enjoy what it is, accept what it’s not, and accept what they are and are not.
We didn’t pick them as friends for this long for no reason. The reason isn’t what limerence told us it was, but limerence doesn’t void it.
LaR,
„he accepts me unconditionally for the person I am. That hasn’t really come around that often.“
That’s something I’m not sure of. I think my XLO is a very loyal person – once he decided that I’m his closest friend, it would take a lot to shake that, but it‘s part of my struggle in the last months to decide whether that’s simply because he is very inflexible in his mindset and just sticks to whatever view he has to me regardless how I really might be or develop into, or if he genuinely accepts me. Or maybe that’s generally the same thing in the end, if one is a bit disillusioned?
„I guess we have to ask ourselves the questions “has my life been better or worse for having him/her in it?” and then a similar one about the future. I suspect your answer and mine would be similar. I don’t like everything about MFF (she has some infuriating aspects in fact). And yet ……“
Also of that, I’m not 100% sure of. Of course it has been better in the years without limerence, I’d say.
But I don’t know about now and the future, especially since we don’t work together anymore.
I feel that I’m not made for his way of long-distance contact without getting hooked on the regular pattern that he likes. I‘d like much more seldom contact with a bit more depth involved, but then that’s what he doesn’t provide, so I‘m not really sure we can find something that works long-distance.
He‘s a bit too much in my thoughts right now after the trip and I want to change that, but it’s somehow difficult when he drops in his texts from measured time to time.
I don’t seem to be able to bear with his need for regular often contact without not liking it because of getting either triggered or resentful because I feel used.
As I said, the only thing is to change my mindset , but changing it most certainly means caring less and getting to a state of mind where my life isn’t better or worse with or without him. So I really cannot answer that question.
You see, I‘m on a bit more grey view of it all today..
Mila,
“I don’t seem to be able to bear with his need for regular often contact without not liking it because of getting either triggered or resentful because I feel used.”
I don’t think he is doing it to use you – at least not deliberately – if I put together various bits I’ve heard over time. I don’t think he has that understanding of it.
“whether that’s simply because he is very inflexible in his mindset and just sticks to whatever view he has to me regardless how I really might be or develop into, or if he genuinely accepts me”
I think I get what you’re saying. Like, I had an LTR in my 20s where the SO completely didn’t understand me by the end of the relationship. That’s because I became, in many ways, a different version of myself as person, and she didn’t really follow along. It is similar with SO now – I have changed a lot in the time I’ve been with her, but this SO has bothered to follow along with and roll with some changes/growth in me.
Separate but linked – we are still in essence ‘the same person’ under all that. We will have happy spells and we will have grey spells. In my grey spells, I have some friends who I can really talk to about it. I have others where I can’t really talk to them about it, but I’m still glad they’re around when I re-emerge into a happier spell. Both groups are valuable to me for different things. You might think where/whether xLO fits in either group.
Don’t let loads of analysis of it with me cloud your judgement – you were in a good place about it by the end of your trip – try and hold onto that.
There are definitely both similarities and differences about our LEs. MFF and I have a couple of interests besides work in common, so if we want to try for friendship beyond the workplace, we have some bits to kind of jolly that along. It is equally a curse and a blessing I guess. On texting, she’s the opposite to your xLO really – hardly ever bothers.
Just checking in. I had to drive past LO’s house and I saw some equipment outside which I presume is for repairs/upgrades to prepare the house for sale. I didn’t stop and I did not text him.
I am in a lot of pain, and I am tempted, having been in such close proximity, but I am hanging in there.
I remind myself that LO will be leaving the state in about three months.
A girlfriend and I were looking at photos of his new house, which is on the other side of the country. We were both wondering why a single man needs 18 acres, and a 7700 square foot house with eight bathrooms. I was telling her some of the things he has done and said to me.
“He can’t move soon enough!” she said.
„He can’t move soon enough!” she said.“
Cannot agree more.
I‘m a bit struggling, suddenly and ironically (since I’m the one who asked about reducing texting) I want to text, which means I’m already hooked on the pattern again.
I‘m also prone to feel safe in a recurring routine and environment, like XLO (or LO or friend, somehow terms like that seem a bit futile), that’s why it’s dangerous for me since it leads to attachment and in my case unfortunately to wanting more than the little he can give.
I know exactly that it would be good to not initiate anything so as to install a new rhythm or better, no rhythm, for me to distance myself again for my sanity, but the urge is there. (although I know that he‘ll text sooner or later anyway).
I‘m talking myself off it here. I know that if I text now I‘ll re-establish the pattern I wanted to avoid myself. So just keep my hands still and let the urge pass since it’s a relict of old neuronal paths and nothing that would do me any good in reality, it’s the old dopamine and warmth seeking lizard brain…
Also, LaR,
I have a memory of you writing that he doesn’t use me because I wrote that I don’t want to establish the texting again as I will feel used at some point- of course he doesn’t use me, I think I know that now, it’s more my feeling of being used, because I‘ll completely go his way of communicating while denying my own needs, and while it’s not his intention, it’s still me who bends all the way and I won’t feel good with that, I guess. I wasn’t so sure about him using me in the last months, but after our talk I think I see better how he ticks and that he genuinely just ticks this way when he likes someone. Which still might be a way that’s not good for me.
Mila,
I can only manage a quick penny thought for now – based on my experience, not much good can come of texting him *right at this moment* when you feel this way.
Let it percolate for a bit ☕️
Mila
I agree with our learned friend LaR above. I think you’re very much at risk if you text now. I would leave it and reflect somewhat.
Jmmo
Mila. The above post was to you, not LaR
Jmmo x
Thanks LaR and Jmmo and Snow,
That’s what I‘m doing! I‘m anyway busy now and have a stupid worry to deal with that I brought upon myself (actually in a way the proverbial cold shower that Snow recommended), not many thoughts to spare on texting…
Thanks for your quick reaction , I appreciate it very much❤️
🔥 🍊 🍷,
I’m hearing you and know well how LE itchy fingers feel like… but scratching it may cause “colossal ” effects…
Could you have a midday shower at work or icy-water to face?
Mila,
As a texting expert I will have to weigh in here. 😉 I’m sorry to hear you are struggling a bit. Texting is addictive, and more than texting, the connection that it strengthens. I maintain that I did not become limerent for TO, but I was a little addicted to/reliant on the texting. So much so that I was afraid how I would react if he suddenly stopped, “disappeared”, because texting was our main form of contact.
Good insight: “he genuinely just ticks this way when he likes someone. Which still might be a way that’s not good for me.”
That’s what some wise people (*cough, LaR, cough*) have been trying to tell me about interaction with new beau, although about slightly different things (beau being very sure and vocal about his feelings while I’m a little slower. And that I shouldn’t feel pressured to adopt to his pace or his way of communicating.) That is, even if someone acts in an “objectively” positive way, it might not be the right way for *us*.
By the way, one habit (I won’t use the word “addiction” here) replaces another. Now that I’m with beau, I’m finding I’m not reliant on the texting contact with TO any longer. I think that’s only natural. I’m actually struggling to find the time and brain space to keep in contact with TO. TO knows all about beau, and he still maintains pretty much as constant contact as before. I do feel a little guilty for not being as verbose in responses nowadays. I’m not suggesting you transfer (feelings or texting habits), however!
I think your idea of sitting still and letting the feeling pass sounds good. Habits are strengthened when we repeat them. You have the will power to resist falling back to old patterns – you can form new ones instead.
🍨,
Are you trying to make Mila “verbose” in LwL instead of texting? I think it’s a brilliant idea!
How is going with MR?
❄️, Thanks for asking! All is going well with Mind Reader… at the moment. Earlier we had another misunderstanding where he took offense at something I said, but we talked it through. He has been a little insecure about my feelings – and very open about his! He’s ‘in his feelings more than Drake’, so yeah… (very “F”). But hopefully we understand and trust each other more now. We both seem to want to keep the other around!
Hi Trifles,
Thanks for weighing in! As I wrote to the others, I suddenly don’t have the time to worry about texting anyway. So I won’t. And I know what you mean with being a bit addicted more to texting than the person!
Yes, I’ll let it pass and set up a new pattern that suits me, or no pattern at all.
As to transferring, since I transferred already two times in the past, I’m wary of it and try to avoid it like the devil. Also, thankfully , there are no suitable objects in sight…(Although I had a little flirty texting spell with a new colleague today who is way too young for me and we are both of course not interested, but it was a nice distraction;)
It’s so good to read about things with your new man, I’m so glad for you, it sounds very healthy and honest, I love it!
I am having a white-knuckle day. Anyone who is so inclined, please send me good thoughts. I have not seen LO in almost three weeks. Hanging in there, but I can feel myself slipping.
You can handle this.
https://youtu.be/DvFKle_kdVw?feature=shared – Das Boot
I would be the junior officer yelling “ALARM!”
To L.E.:
If you’re the junior officer, I am the guy with his pants down.
You can do it!!!!
(7700 square feet???)
And eight bathrooms. For one guy.
Norma!!!!
Hang in there. You have come this far. The last thing you need is the storm of chaos chemicals from an LO interaction (or a random crappy comment or reaction from him) stay strong.
Honor all the strength you have already shown and let. This. Pass. It has before. It will again. You have got this my darling.
x
csc
To CSC:
Thank you for your ongoing kindness and support. I appreciate it more than you know.
After about 6 weeks of doing everything I can to avoid sightings or corridor walk-pasts, I was finally confronted with said corridor walk past of xLO yesterday. She said hi (unsmiling), I said nothing. But I walked on. No backward glances, no feeling awkward, nothing. It felt like quite an achievement. I genuinely feel nothing, except the aforementioned disdain.
I think that’s progress in terms of ridding her from any place in my mind where I might still care for her. Because I can now be sure that I don’t.
⛺️, it’s a huge progress in the mind! 👍 👍 👍
❄️
❤️
⛺️
⛺️,
✊️💪
🚜
Reflecting on my sighting and encounter with xLO as mentioned above. Nothing. No longing, no regret, no rekindling, no flicker, no “what-if”, no “goodness she looked good”, no I-wish-i-hadn’t-seen-her. Nothing except ambivalence – a kind of sneering disdain which is not like me – I apologise that it’s unbecoming. But here it is.
That woman used, manipulated, controlled and played me. She made me miserable and angry.
I know full well that she didn’t ask for my Limerence – that’s all on me. But I can look myself in the mirror and know that I’m working hard on my LE-related problems. She’s doing nothing about her selfishness, her need for men to circle her, her need to be in control…. her narcissistic tendencies.
Sorry – I’m voicing my therapy. But thanks for allowing me to.
I’m sorry everyone, but I loathe that woman (©️csc). If she was unwell a few days ago – it was clearly nothing serious – I don’t care. It’s her birthday on Friday. I couldn’t care less. I certainly won’t be playing games with cards and gifts the way that she did on mine 3 months ago.
Thank you for allowing and encourage me to vent.
Miss Snow
““war and peace”. What shall we call it? — “Distinction and Affinity”? ”
The Brothers Karamazov? I have the book. It’s 835 pages! 🙂
““dependable” in verbal communications or logistic actions/deeds?”
Yes. We talked almost every day. Saw each other a lot (if they weren’t long distance). Were very emotionally supportive of each other.
“I believe Stoic is founded on the aim to shield one from emotional pains. It cuts down expectations while still striving to build and enjoy friendship/relationship when it is here and now — the journey itself.”
I can’t do that. If I’m going to get emotionally close to someone, I’m going to have expectations. I can’t shut those off.
And just to be clear … I’m talking about very close friends here. Not all friends.
“Since friendship is more important to me than other stuff in life, I’d still allocate my most fuel even in a possible substantial friendship.”
I did that a few years ago. Was out and about trying to make new friends. And I did. But it wasn’t worth all the effort. I didn’t make any close friends. Not really.
“Isn’t that everything in life is transitory? ”
I mean, in the bigger picture, yes. But if you, for example, get married, that relationship comes with some level of expectation. Yes, the person could leave or die … but it’s still a relationship that is prioritized. Thought of as important. And if things aren’t working, people are willing to put effort into it to fix it. I’ve never had a friendship where the other person was willing to work on it.
“Whether to try our best depends on what we value most and what fulfill us most. ”
That’s my point. People don’t value friendship. If something happens in their lives, it’s the first thing they nix. It’s the first relationship they will let go of. So if you are ok with that, go for it. Make close friends. There’s no right or wrong answer here.
“Yes, here lies our different definitions. As mentioned before, frequent talks is just one indication of close friendship in COO, but deeds and spirits/emotions are more involved. ”
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by deeds and sprits/emotions. Deeds … wouldn’t they still have to be in your life a decent amount for that to happen? And emotions … the connection still may be there, but if I rarely see or hear from the person …the friendship is different than it was. IMO. The emotions, while not maybe completely ending, fade into something less.
“People “hide” their authentic emotions or private thoughts for fear of either political concerns or ‘losing face” (if revealing vulnerabilities). Everyone wants to appear or to be thought smart, strong, and skillful, etc. I grew up with that kind of culture that is “inhuman” and sickening in some ways.”
That doesn’t sound fun. Very repressed.
” Being upset/angry is considered useless or unwise — you can’t changing other people’s personality.”
Yes, very true. And I’ve found that people who are regularly late aren’t going to change. It’s a pattern.
“I can ONLY do creative-writing in English, very, very clumsy in COO tongue, that restricts my free association/thinking. I talked about this once with LaR. The language is bonded to culture, which then affects mindset.”
Ah, ok. Your memories of the culture restrict you.
“So now you’re 3 years older than 2023?”
No, because I’ve read your messages and Sammy’s. I’m decades older! 🙂
“Yes, a lot better if the other side is NOT from COO, and is perceived trustable, patient, nonjudgmental and highly empathetic (not sympathetic — I, an Eastern Amazon Warrior, will accept no one else’s sympathy for me, nor self-pity!). ”
Yeah, you don’t want pity. You want empathy.
“Still an introvert cannot be transformed to extrovert over night, or the other way around, right?”
I’m a lot better than I was when I was younger. I used to be painfully shy. But, no, my true nature is still introversion.
“The stupid makeup and blonde hair suited the two characters she was in.”
Ah, ok. I really disliked the heavy makeup. It’s not her.
“You’ll have to tell me how you feel about this “Russian Diplomat” after you watch the movie.”
Ok.
“So it’s not enough to be oneself and lead a quiet life, but one needs to look busy and feel important in others’ eyes? ”
I think busyness gives people a badge of legitimacy.
“If individuality is stressed in the West, how does it manifest?”
That’s a good question. The West is about individuality, but if you express it, you’re looked at as strange.
“I agree with your insight, but Limerence also strikes when one’s life or a couple’s relationship seems to be okay.”
Yes, very true. But I’d still say it’s about the limerent. It’s some kind of missing piece or thing they lack.
“She so often made me feel like a big “sore” in her life — either neglected me or criticized/abuse me. I don’t remember we were emotionally close even for one day! I mentioned that I wished so much my gfs’ mothers and even my day/week care teacher could adopt me.”
I know the feeling! I inserted myself in a lot of friends’ families a a kid. Was trying to find the Brady Bunch. 🙂
“Dad as a professor could not care for me full-time, only his time was more flexible than Mom, who had an on-call night in person every week.
Gotcha.
“Yes, a literal goose! I’m probably the only child in the whole world (by a google’s search on “headless goose”) who witnessed a real headless, howling goose running in circles, blood pumping out of its neck, and its head laying on the ground nearby… ”
Good God. What a horrible thing to witness.
“nearly passed out when I saw fresh blood running out of my left elbow after that big fall in Florence’s copper-stone street on 4/11 morning, on the way to see the most famous butt in the world!”
Not sure what you mean. 🙂
“After working with three therapists, I still can’t get any memory back, except the guesses/speculations.”
Maybe that’s a good thing. What you do remember sounds pretty awful.
“Following the cultural script, I believed that the flame would remain alive even after you get together with LO, especially after a marriage — a safety belt. ”
I thought that, too. I was incredibly naive.
“I believe that trauma affected on what kind of male face my Glimmer landed — safe, warm, sweet? … probably NOT common “hot”.”
I’m not necessarily into common “hot,” either. My trauma affected who I glimmered for as well. But they weren’t safe. The glimmer always causes me to feel anxiety.
“I think this summarizes well of a phantom of our realistic LO, whom limerents chased for centuries.”
Yeah, it’s a fruitless search.
“Do you think your view is somewhat pessimistic, instead of Stoic?”
Yes. I’ve always chased the glimmer. But the glimmer is a trainwreck. At least for me.
“Which would still mentally prepare for the worst, but meanwhile not chasing something that one knows would bring oneself pains…?”
Well, that’s the conundrum. It means not chasing the glimmer. To avoid the pain.
“For many, it’s relaxing. But I had Qigong training at age of 20, so Kundalini meditation would make my body shake violently and jump up over 3-4 feet high, which is unsafe to myself and others. So they had to press me down until the “internal dragon”/Qi calmed down.”
What was the purpose of the meditation? I mean, the Kundalini meditation?
“He looked very much like John Hurt, in the similar height and physique. I felt it’s a “jinx”… Life is so unpredictable! *sigh*”
I’m sorry to hear he passed away. I remember John Hurt in the movie “Alien.”
“That’s a good news to have 80% of anxiety gone. I hope your new shrink would help reduce the rest of 20 percent. Please keep me informed.”
I still have a little bit of it. I can feel a fluttering in my stomach. But I can function.
““Neither look forward where there is doubt, nor backward where there is regret. Look inward and ask not if there is anything outside that you want, but whether there is anything inside that you have not yet unpacked.”
— Quentin Crisp”
I have a lot to unpack. 🙂
Miss Marcia,
[“war and peace”. What shall we call it? — “Distinction and Affinity”? ” The Brothers Karamazov? I have the book. It’s 835 pages! ]
The Brothers Karamazov is about three brothers and a father (all women characters are minor in it), we’re just two INFP sisters (imho is another one, but she’s off mostly), its theme is bit off to suit us. Do you have another title to suggest? 😊
“Yes. We talked almost every day. Saw each other a lot (if they weren’t long distance). Were very emotionally supportive of each other. “
Now, your story made me envious! I rarely got any deep emotional support from both men/boys and women/girls. I was almost always the tougher one, with little/no need of sympathy/pity.
“I can’t do that. If I’m going to get emotionally close to someone, I’m going to have expectations. I can’t shut those off.”
Then, Stoicism would not be suitable for you in this arena. I guess due to the harsh cultural/political environment I grew up, I (we) was too afraid/cautious to lean on anyone emotionally or mentally (for fear of being betrayed). I could not even get my parents listing to me, who else was dependable ⁉️
I did have various girlfriends since little, I have fond memories of them. My current close gfs are from my 4th grade, another 6th grade, another the 1st job… all three in Canada. They’d fly in if I need their physical help (one did once with her vacation time). But I don’t talk with them regularly at all, they have little ideas what I’ve been doing or thinking or feeling.
“I did that a few years ago. Was out and about trying to make new friends. And I did. But it wasn’t worth all the effort. I didn’t make any close friends. Not really.”
It’s really hard after colleges. I tried to make friends with various LOs, but they were not interested. My Russian gf was so different from me, that we ended up arguing to the point that we refused to talk with each other for two years or less, and then backed together again. I made 5 international friends in gradual school, then they all moved away… but I did not regret my efforts, the time with them were rewarding and fun.
“I mean, in the bigger picture, yes. But if you, for example, get married, that relationship comes with some level of expectation. Yes, the person could leave or die … but it’s still a relationship that is prioritized. “
I did not ignore my others friends when I got married. I “dragged” xSO to meet them as well, and he’d let me travel alone to see my distance friends/classmates. I also made efforts to get to know his friends from pre-marriage and make new friends with other married couples through our respective work. If just being “stuck” with him all day along, I’d be feeling more lonely.
“Thought of as important. And if things aren’t working, people are willing to put effort into it to fix it. I’ve never had a friendship where the other person was willing to work on it. “
I was always one who was willing to put more efforts into making meaningful relationship; often I put their needs ahead of my own, that’s just one of COO traditions in dealing with possibly worthy friendship. Of course, if other side did nothing to contribute, then I’d walk away FIRMLY.
“That’s my point. People don’t value friendship. If something happens in their lives, it’s the first thing they nix. It’s the first relationship they will let go of. So if you are ok with that, go for it. Make close friends. There’s no right or wrong answer here. “
Regretably I see it’s one of the culture characteristics here, I always had harder time to befriend with Americans, but not Asians or Europeans or South Americans. We non-natives seem to get along so much easier with each other and then keep in touch (not everyday or every month).
“I’m not entirely sure what you mean by deeds and sprits/emotions. Deeds … wouldn’t they still have to be in your life a decent amount for that to happen? “
I mean logistical stuff: need a car ride, help care you if you’re very sick, etc. As mentioned above, my gfs in Canada would fly in to help me out, when my Russian gf probably won’t take her vacation time off for my needs.
“And emotions … the connection still may be there, but if I rarely see or hear from the person …the friendship is different than it was. IMO. The emotions, while not maybe completely ending, fade into something less. “
Not for me. Even those friends live far away and we don’t talk every month/year, they exist in my mind fondly. I love/Agape 🧡 them deeply due to our past connections, even if there were huge arguments or misunderstandings involved. I, like Granny & Dad, learned to be grateful for what I got in the past, even if long gone. Our life is short, those fond memories are a part of our identities, if you count thoughts as a part of one’s identity.
“That doesn’t sound fun. Very repressed. “
It’s called communist culture. You’ll need to read “1984” to imagine how one thinks and feels after growing up in a Big Brother’s regime.
“Yes, very true. And I’ve found that people who are regularly late aren’t going to change. It’s a pattern.”
They’re not trustworthy, just leave them without any regrets!
“Ah, ok. Your memories of the culture restrict you. “
Yes. But not just memories alone. The impact of old brainwash was stored/inprinted in the mind and body, which habitually and subconsciously inhibit one’s thoughts, emotions, imaginations, and behaviors even after having migrated to a “Brave New world”! Only with acute awareness and efforts to reduce/eliminate those impact, one is able to gradually liberate oneself inside out.
[“So now you’re 3 years older than 2023?” No, because I’ve read your messages and Sammy’s. I’m decades older! ]
Oh, NO! Sis, I’m so sorry! 🫂 Can I rewrite my parts so you can reverse half of your “grown decades”? The other half, you’ll have to work out with your protégé… (One 🖐️ can’t play 🏓🏓)
“Yeah, you don’t want pity. You want empathy. “
Precisely! My inner strength forms a part of my narc pride, please “save my face” 🤭 Empathy is best for anyone, I truly believe, and I’m learning everyday how to give it…. I’m not a shrink and shall never be a licensed one, so please don’t chop my head off if I misunderstand you first….
“I’m a lot better than I was when I was younger. I used to be painfully shy. But, no, my true nature is still introversion. “
The same here. But in writing/monologuing, I am not shy with anyone — I can’t see anyone in front of me‼️
“I think busyness gives people a badge of legitimacy. “
That’s an illusion, which imp, would not fulfill one’s mind and soul (or inner vague void). I remember Eric Fromm in his “The Art of Love” talks a blot about how people have changed themselves from “human being” to “human doing”. When one is too busy, one can’t feel, sense, think and love at a visceral level.
“That’s a good question. The West is about individuality, but if you express it, you’re looked at as strange. “
Exactly! Many people loudly express their individuality through speech or attire or stress their differences from others, then they do what Joneses do. It’s a culture full of contradictories with desires to get instant tangible and intangible gratification…. Few people want to slow down to ask serious questions what truly affect quality of their individual life…. That’s my biased observation.
“Yes, very true. But I’d still say it’s about the limerent. It’s some kind of missing piece or thing they lack. “
That’s certainly a cause of our cases, respectively, Sis! 🫂 I’ve unpacked all my stuff… except those forgotten memories.
“Good God. What a horrible thing to witness.”
The worse part was that goose was killed to welcome me as a faraway guest…. I have no memory of anything after passing out for that evening. But I do remember clearly what I did the next day…. The entire scene with that howling stuck in my head even right now…
So the third trauma by Mom/Dad (actually happened before the goose) was this:
Dad bought me two newborn chicks for pet (I was 6-7?). One died in one month, but the other one grew to more than 0.5 kg pure-white hen, after I fed her and played with her everyday. Her old carbon-paper box was too small to contain her, and I heard (?) she’s big enough (to have enough meat?) for food. I remember that I verbally protested it…. I don’t remember anything after that: our dinner together, evening events, the location of my bed, dining table, etc.
Only in 2015 on my trip to visit my parents in COO, I mentioned that chick again. Dad laughingly told something I never knew: “you cried for over two hours… but when the chick was put on the table, you had the first bite!” 😱 Then, my cptsd therapist said that a huge chuck of my memory loss had something to do with the “extreme grief/pain” (a huge deal for a child) of losing the pet chick and ate it! (The goose trauma happened later when I was 8.5 yrs. )
““nearly passed out when I saw fresh blood running out of my left elbow after that big fall in Florence’s copper-stone street on 4/11 morning, on the way to see the most famous butt in the world!” Not sure what you mean. }
Sorry about the poor grammatical, verbose sentence: I meant on the way rushing to see the status DAVID on 4/11, I tripped and fell hard on a copper-stone street in Florence. I thought I saw the bone sticking out of my left elbow and blood was streaming done… Then, I felt tremendously dizzy and nauseous, ready to pass out, but I didn’t want to lie down on the street or miss my 9am appointment to get into the museum. So I held up by sheer will and then a chef/owner opened her restaurant to give me the first-aid help. Local Italians were very nice.
“Maybe that’s a good thing. What you do remember sounds pretty awful. “
That’s exactly what two therapists said. My brain protected me from possible pains to be stuck in it.
“I thought that, too. I was incredibly naive. “
The cultural script from both the East and West in relationship/romance is so untrue/mythical! All those wishful romance novels!
“I’m not necessarily into common “hot,” either. My trauma affected who I glimmered for as well. But they weren’t safe. The glimmer always causes me to feel anxiety. “
That’s so unfortunate! Maybe you could work out deep cause with your new therapist⁉️
“Yes. I’ve always chased the glimmer. But the glimmer is a trainwreck. At least for me. “
The other side of my trauma coin is that my Glimmer instinctively knew who was SAFE for me — not Macho type. I had 3 narc x “LOs”, but they picked me up, not my Glimmer subconsciously selected them.
“Well, that’s the conundrum. It means not chasing the glimmer. To avoid the pain. “
Didn’t you say not to put efforts to make close friendship? So it doesn’t work with glimmer, huh?
“What was the purpose of the meditation? I mean, the Kundalini meditation? “
To wake kundalini energy to break/clear up blockages in the body’s/meridians’ pathways. It applies the same principle as meditations, but the former is more powerful and needs close guidance.
“I’m sorry to hear he passed away. I remember John Hurt in the movie “Alien.”
I just came off a sad phone call: my x-aunt-in-law died of a sudden heart attack (3 weeks ago). I was really fond of her, a down-to-earth, hearty, joyful, skillful blacksmith. She was still working at age of 85. 😢 Again, life is so unpredictable and short…
“I still have a little bit of it. I can feel a fluttering in my stomach. But I can function. “
I know what you mean. However, I still sense some kind of LONGING still within your system… Perhaps IT needs more attention when you’re working with your therapist or by yourself?
“I have a lot to unpack. “
Have you seen the movie “An Englishman in New York” by John Hurt? Gosh, he’s so delicious and witty in the movie! If not, I highly recommend it.
After my life-time longing is gone, I am experiencing another Quentin Crisp’s quote —
“If your love is valuable to you, it is because you give it. You must be ready to expect nothing in return. Once you accept this, your heart will never be broken again.”
I just came back from a dinner reunion with a college classmate and his wife. He was in limerence with our shared classmate LO for decades and often whined about his required LE/resentment in our class SM room (the LO is in the room as well). And this LO was also his wife’s roommate during their gradual school. So I sat there not knowing what to say to him about his resident LE emotions for his LO (who lives in CA and has been avoiding him in our SM room for years).
But then in the middle of the dinner, he openly talked about his LE mistake with the LO, and his wife told me about what the LO said to her, when the husband was courting her, “he’s been courting/pursuing me … “. I could not believe my ears! They are very open to me about this (ongoing?) history as if gossiping about another couple…. That’s how one COO couple (married for decades) chats about a SO’s LO (in the past + present)!
Then he gossiped about our other shared classmates… I 😳 again and again… so many unbelievable, true stories… “human, all too human”! 😀
Typo:
whined about his unrequited LE/resentment in our class SM room (the LO is in the room as well). And this LO was also his wife’s roommate during their gradual school. So I sat there not knowing what to say to him about his residual LE emotions for his LO
I’ve read Brothers Karamazov. It has somehow become almost like required reading for converts to Orthodoxy in the past few decades! Lol I loved it. 🙂
…That’s horrible that you’d be given a pet and then it would be used for food! People—especially children—start to love and cherish animals they give names to and treat as pets. It’s like eating a family member. 🙁
Sorry to hear about the loss of your former family member. 🙁
The rest I’ll leave to you and Marcia, but I wanted to say those things.
🦇,
I have to correct my story a bit: I don’t think the word “pet” was said to me, but a “gift” was most likely used.
Traumatically, I was made to unconsciously eat my “family member”… So far, no one has told me whether I had a bite of that headless goose unconsciously…
Now, you understand why I have no memory of any family dinners and evening activities, dining table, bed, etc… before and after my chick was gone. My memory came back when I went to Granny’s for the 2nd time for the length of 6 months.
Oh yeah, I was also going to say, as someone who’s been married for decades, I’ve experienced the loneliness of being without close friends (at least, in the same city—most of my old friends are on Facebook). It made it very clear to me that we can’t just wrap ourselves up with our romantic partners and shut everybody else out. I had the SO, but in a new town I struggled to make friends. It took YEARS, but I finally have close friends (and keep getting LO’s!). Meanwhile, I’d think of someone as my best friend and they’d say their SO is their best friend. No! The two things are not the same! (Unless, of course, you fall in love with your best friend, lol!)
Miss Marcia,
“The Brothers Karamazov is about three brothers and a father (all women characters are minor in it), we’re just two INFP sisters (imho is another one, but she’s off mostly), its theme is bit off to suit us. Do you have another title to suggest? 😊”
I was just referring to the length. I’ll have to think about it. My first inclination is “The Three Sisters” by Chekov. But the storyline doesn’t really fit, either.
“Now, your story made me envious! I rarely got any deep emotional support from both men/boys and women/girls.”
Well, my family wasn’t supportive. So I looked to my friends for that.
” I could not even get my parents listing to me, who else was dependable ⁉️”
That must have been lonely. I think everyone needs at least a couple of people they can really count on.
“My current close gfs are from my 4th grade, another 6th grade, another the 1st job… all three in Canada. They’d fly in if I need their physical help (one did once with her vacation time). ”
Well, that’s something. A big deal, actually.
“But I don’t talk with them regularly at all, they have little ideas what I’ve been doing or thinking or feeling.”
Yeah, I have to have regular contact to feel close. But that’s me.
“It’s really hard after colleges. ”
Yes, because you’re not seeing each other as often and your lives aren’t intersecting anymore. They’re on their path; you’re on yours.
“If just being “stuck” with him all day along, I’d be feeling more lonely.”
I agree.
“I was always one who was willing to put more efforts into making meaningful relationship”
I used to be like that, but I won’t do it anymore.
” I always had harder time to befriend with Americans, but not Asians or Europeans or South Americans. We non-natives seem to get along so much easier with each other and then keep in touch (not everyday or every month).”
Is that because those cultures value friendship more?
“I mean logistical stuff: need a car ride, help care you if you’re very sick, etc. As mentioned above, my gfs in Canada would fly in to help me out”
As I wrote above, that is a big deal.
“Not for me. Even those friends live far away and we don’t talk every month/year,”
You don’t talk the entire YEAR?
“I love/Agape 🧡 them deeply due to our past connections, even if there were huge arguments or misunderstandings involved. ”
There are former friends I still think of fondly. But I don’t necessarily think of them as current friends. Or maybe very distant friends. People who show up every few years. I wouldn’t dream of expecting anything from them.
“Only with acute awareness and efforts to reduce/eliminate those impact, one is able to gradually liberate oneself inside out.”
But you’re able to be expressive in English, right?
“Oh, NO! Sis, I’m so sorry! 🫂 Can I rewrite my parts so you can reverse half of your “grown decades”?”
Sure! I want those years back! 🙂
“I’m not a shrink and shall never be a licensed one, so please don’t chop my head off if I misunderstand you first….”
I hadn’t planned on it. 🙂
“That’s an illusion, which imp, would not fulfill one’s mind and soul (or inner vague void). ”
I think that’s what it is. Keep busy so the person doesn’t have to think about their life.
“It’s a culture full of contradictories”
That’s very true. It’s a very sexual culture in a lot of ways, for example, but then it isn’t. Particularly if you’re a woman. There are all kinds of double standards about a woman being sexual.
“Few people want to slow down to ask serious questions what truly affect quality of their individual life…. That’s my biased observation.”
Because they’re always “busy.” 🙂
“That’s certainly a cause of our cases, respectively, Sis! 🫂 I’ve unpacked all my stuff… except those forgotten memories.”
I think limerence still reflects a missing piece in peoples’ lives. As opposed to a crush or an attraction, which is normal. I don’t know if limerence is “normal.” Getting so obsessive.
“But I do remember clearly what I did the next day”
What did you the next day?
“Only in 2015 on my trip to visit my parents in COO, I mentioned that chick again. Dad laughingly told something I never knew: “you cried for over two hours… but when the chick was put on the table, you had the first bite!” 😱”
That’s like something out of a horror movie.
” I meant on the way rushing to see the status DAVID on 4/11, I tripped and fell hard on a copper-stone street in Florence. I thought I saw the bone sticking out of my left elbow and blood was streaming done… Then, I felt tremendously dizzy and nauseous, ready to pass out, ”
This is something that happened recently? So the sight of blood is still traumatic for you?
“The cultural script from both the East and West in relationship/romance is so untrue/mythical! All those wishful romance novels!”
Very much so.
“That’s so unfortunate! Maybe you could work out deep cause with your new therapist⁉️”
I think there’s a part of me that enjoys the anxiety. If I don’t feel anxious, I feel bored.
“The other side of my trauma coin is that my Glimmer instinctively knew who was SAFE for me”
That’s good. You glimmered for people who were good for you.
“Didn’t you say not to put efforts to make close friendship? So it doesn’t work with glimmer, huh?”
I’m not sure what you mean. To not put effort into people/situations that I glimmer for? Apparently I don’t run from the glimmer as I just ran right toward it. Although I’m not going to do anymore. There’s no point. Whereas with my last LO, I hung around for YEARS.
“I just came off a sad phone call: my x-aunt-in-law died of a sudden heart attack (3 weeks ago). I was really fond of her, a down-to-earth, hearty, joyful, skillful blacksmith. She was still working at age of 85. 😢 Again, life is so unpredictable and short…”
I’m sorry to hear that. That’s two deaths you’ve heard of recently. Sometimes life is just poopy. 🙁
“I know what you mean. However, I still sense some kind of LONGING still within your system”
Oh, yeah. I’d pay money to hear from him. It makes no sense because he’s all wrong for me.
“… Perhaps IT needs more attention when you’re working with your therapist or by yourself?”
I guess. She can’t wave her magic wand and make the feelings go away, though.
“Have you seen the movie “An Englishman in New York” by John Hurt? Gosh, he’s so delicious and witty in the movie! If not, I highly recommend it.”
I just watched the trailer. It looks good.
““If your love is valuable to you, it is because you give it. You must be ready to expect nothing in return. Once you accept this, your heart will never be broken again.””
I think it’s awfully hard to do that.
“But then in the middle of the dinner, he openly talked about his LE mistake with the LO, and his wife told me about what the LO said to her, when the husband was courting her, “he’s been courting/pursuing me … “. I could not believe my ears! They are very open to me about this (ongoing?) history as if gossiping about another couple…. That’s how one COO couple (married for decades) chats about a SO’s LO (in the past + present)!”
Wow. The wife is a brave person. She doesn’t care he’s been limerent for this other person for so long?
“So I sat there not knowing what to say to him about his residual LE emotions for his LO”
Did you give him any advice about limerence?
Miss Marcia,
“Miss Marcia,”
It’s looks like you’re writing monologues as well by addressing yourself in the posts. 😃
“I was just referring to the length. “
With our current pace and length, our chats will soon exceed 835 pages.
“I’ll have to think about it. My first inclination is “The Three Sisters” by Chekov. But the storyline doesn’t really fit, either. “
Perhaps we could aim for Proust’s theme — In Search of Lost Time, subtitle: INFP Sisters in Limerence. Then we can just go on and on for 7 or more volumes. Of course, we’ll have to add other limerents characters in them, e.g. 🪣 💦, 🎩 🍺, 🚜 🌽, 👩🦰 🏃, ⛺️,🥔 ,🔥 🍊 🍷, 🍨, 🐝 🧙♀️, 💃, 🤖, etc…. 🤭 (I’m afraid you’re stuck with ❄️ ‘s patent nominations… )
“Well, my family wasn’t supportive. So I looked to my friends for that. “
I did, too. That’s where my loyal girlfriends are from.
” That must have been lonely. I think everyone needs at least a couple of people they can really count on. “
I could count on my girlfriends for logistical stuff, but not so much thoughts/sentimentality sharing. They did not quite understand why the ways I felt and thought, I read way more than all of them. Books in any culture are a source of “brainwash”. So I was lonely in mind and soul, and talked a lot silently in my head to those book characters.
“Well, that’s something. A big deal, actually. “
I have a close Japanese gf teaching in a university in Japan. She told me that she spent a whole month to take care of her secret, handsome LFF – limerence flavored friend, who wanted to commit a suicide (despite he was a TV presenter). When he got better, of course, he went to date other prettier girls. She did not show any resentment when she told me, she felt “honored” or deeply appreciated that she was asked (not his own family members) to really HELP him.
“I was always one who was willing to put more efforts into making meaningful relationship” I used to be like that, but I won’t do it anymore. “
I will. I am doing it now… with 👻 👻 👻 … Isn’t it meaningful to chat with each other here⁉️
” Is that because those cultures value friendship more? “
From my interactions with them, they seem to value friendship more, but mainly, they take time to do things. They take longer time to eat breakfast, lunch or dinner, they walk slower, I’d see more relaxed expressions on their face, they seem to be more content with much less material stuff…. Then they spend more time to meet up with their friends, casual, or intimate. Then when we get together, we discuss and debate about philosophical, psychological, arts and cultural stuff, as if we had the whole world of time in our hands.
“You don’t talk the entire YEAR?”
Yes. Sometimes, two or three years. But when we get on phone, it’s at least 1 or 2 hours, to catch up with our logistical life and our mental/emotional journeys. In some cultures, talking is considered “cheap/useless” but actions are valued as “substantial”. How many countries have talking therapy?
“There are former friends I still think of fondly. But I don’t necessarily think of them as current friends. Or maybe very distant friends. People who show up every few years. I wouldn’t dream of expecting anything from them. “
To me, former/distant friends mean that I no longer even think about them. Current friends mean that if I want to chat with them or need help from them, they’d show up on the phone or in person, although I don’t often speak with them, besides holiday and birthday greetings.
“But you’re able to be expressive in English, right? “
Yes. In order to more freely express my emotions and thoughts, I need to use English with my limited vocabulary, which could make me more “verbose” — repeating the same set of words. 😌
[“Oh, NO! Sis, I’m so sorry! Can I rewrite my parts so you can reverse half of your “grown decades”?” Sure! I want those years back! ]
Hmmm… rewriting the history is much harder when/if one has sharp memories, but unforgeting or unforgiving…. Making/writing about a new history is better but it needs be more powerful in order to subside or renew the older historical parts… 😊
“I think that’s what it is. Keep busy so the person doesn’t have to think about their life. “
That’s one big reason, which is pitiful! Another one is to keep up with Joneses, as you say, so they can feel “legitimate” or “important”.
The worse is that many modern parents book their kids’ activities back to back and then “brag” about it: ‘they need to be busy, or they’d stare at the screen…’ “s/he is very good in this and that…. “ Many kids have no time after school to free-play with their peers.
“That’s very true. It’s a very sexual culture in a lot of ways, for example, but then it isn’t. Particularly if you’re a woman. There are all kinds of double standards about a woman being sexual. “
Yes, many double standards in the West in sexuality arena. In the East, a Macho culture is at least “consistent” — just avoid all talks about sexuality in media, regardless men’s or women’s sexuality. Women are “secondary” supportive citizens, although men can’t live without them! You’d count yourself lucky if not being “date raped”❗️
“Me, Too” is astronomically resisted in almost all Eastern nations. Growing up in the East, I still feel tremendously uncomfortable to talk with anyone about this topic, not even in private domain.
[“Few people want to slow down to ask serious questions what truly affect quality of their individual life…. That’s my biased observation.” Because they’re always “busy.” ]
Also, they’re afraid to look deep inside. Busyness also numb one’s sensitivities and sensibilities; then less pains would be felt.
“I think limerence still reflects a missing piece in peoples’ lives. As opposed to a crush or an attraction, which is normal. I don’t know if limerence is “normal.” Getting so obsessive. “
I agree with you about missing piece(s) in some Limerents’ lives. But also some brain conditions contribute to LE obsession, such as our OCD (you said you have it, right? my OCD is quite intense) or other types of neurodivergence.
“But I do remember clearly what I did the next day” “What did you the next day?”
I met a girl of my age (the goose owner’s neighbor), and went to her home in the morning. I remember so clearly her young mother’s face-length straight hair with bangs and the sweetest smiles I had ever seen. There was a wooden bar across the ceiling from wall to wall, on which a thick willow bassinet was dangling. The mother was swinging her baby brother in it. I stared at it and wished so much I could be in that bassinet — the montage focus. I remembered most of my strong wishes/emotions/thoguhts from the childhood.
“That’s like something out of a horror movie. “
Tha’t why it’s considered as a huge trauma here, so huge that it could make any kid to loose a whole chunk of memory. I do suspect that I probably unconsciously ate that headless, howling goose, too (it would be just a plate of meat in front of a kid), but no one ever said anything to me ever since and I did not ask, either.
” This is something that happened recently? So the sight of blood is still traumatic for you?”
Yes, just two months ago!
I am hemophobic all my life to the sight of FLOWING blood. I was also unknowingly“tested” once (13-14 yrs) while watching (at the door ajar) Mom operating a small surgical procedure on my teenage girlfriend. Once seeing flood flowing, I was about passing out before a nurse helped me onto a side table nearby. I heard Mom commenting to the nurse, “she’s good for nothing!” — that’s Mom, even at the moment of me passing out.
Nowadays, I can see paper-cut blood or blood in bags/tubes, but not flowing one on others or myself, otherwise blackness would flash in and out of my eyes, the sky spinning, terrible nausea. Fake blood in action movies also makes me very nauseous, I just cover my eyes.
“I think there’s a part of me that enjoys the anxiety. If I don’t feel anxious, I feel bored. “
I could totally relate that. The high of racing heart or tipsy toes was intoxicating. But I did not pursue novelty or excitement, and disliked anxiety of facing unknown. Nowadays, my anxiety of facing a specific uncertainty is perhaps 5-10%?
I used to get bored easily, but not anymore. With that nagging longing gone, I could appreciate my reality much, much more nowadays. While in a joyful mood often, one wouldn’t feel “bored”, but just light and easy going.
“That’s good. You glimmered for people who were good for you. “
Putting aside their own flaws or shortcomings, they were safe and caring for my totally wellbeing — not just their own interests; they were a kind of Romeo or John Keats type, no matter what age bracket they’re in.
“I’m not sure what you mean. To not put effort into people/situations that I glimmer for? “
You said you’re not going to put efforts to make close friendship anymore for fear of losing it in the end. But a glimmer lasts much, much shorter than a close friendship, yet you still chased it relentlessly, even when it landed on a wrong LO?
“Apparently I don’t run from the glimmer as I just ran right toward it. Although I’m not going to do anymore. There’s no point. Whereas with my last LO, I hung around for YEARS.”
That’s very disheartening to have lost so much of time, indeed!
“Oh, yeah. I’d pay money to hear from him. It makes no sense because he’s all wrong for me. “
*sigh”….Perhaps you can dig deeper to find out what you really need to hear from him? Or from someone else? Does he symbolize or represent someone or something else, which is MISSING inside you? Can anyone else, e.g. your “enemies/rivals” (if you have any), give some possible answers to you?
“I guess. She can’t wave her magic wand and make the feelings go away, though.”
No, she cannot! No one else can! Only yourself can make the fleeing go away, could be with a helping hand… I don’t know what.
“I just watched the trailer. It looks good. “
I rarely like old actors acting, but John Hurt is an exception. He’s so good in his roles, and I love his voice. As I told you, My Dad has his air as in his role in “1984”.
[“If your love is valuable to you, it is because you give it. You must be ready to expect nothing in return. Once you accept this, your heart will never be broken again.”” I think it’s awfully hard to do that. ]
I did not believe its possibility before my longing went away. Now, I know it’s not that hard, because one is not searching for any evasive stuff, or expecting anything from anyone else. Giving itself becomes content and joyful. 😃
“I’m sorry to hear that. That’s two deaths you’ve heard of recently. Sometimes life is just poopy. “
Yes, two day in a roll — Sat. Morning and Sun. Evening! And I remember these two lost lives well, due to their unique aliveness and personality! Life sucks if one really closely examines it. Another reason for a lot of people to keep busy, so they don’t have to see that ultimate grining DEATH, coming and going around to fetch people’s lives…
“Wow. The wife is a brave person. She doesn’t care he’s been limerent for this other person for so long?”
It seems so. COO couples do NOT show jealousy (if they have) easily even after one side has PA outside their relationship. (Again, the concept of EA is not defined nor accepted in its culture). Demonstrate emotions in public is considered “uncouth”, or uncivilized.
I’m very surprised by her calm telling me what this LO said to her in relating to her husband and by his admission of his own mistakes in recognizing this LO — her limited book readings, jealousy, vanity, insecurity, etc.
He still occasionally rambles or rages his LE resentments in our class SM room, in which his LO also is. (his wife is not). When he drank too much and cursed the entire world irrationally, I’d sarcastically “scold/mock” him in English in the room. He’d then apologize or stop immediately. The couple lives in TX.
In general, COO people are quite calm or stoic (small “s”) when talking about their emotional matters, opposite to over “exaggerated”, dramatic scenes in the movies. The word “erratic” or “crazy” are two words often used for COO people to stereotypically describe Westerners. They don’t understand why and how they are so emotionally “erratic”. 🧐
I am often in the middle enjoying observing, sensing, and understanding the both sides…
“Did you give him any advice about limerence?”
No, no way to do so! How many people in the West even know the word “limerence”? I don’t think that I can explain it clearly to any of COO fellow men/women for the rest of my life.
Marcia,
How about naming our book to— “In Search of the Lost Time in Limerence”?
To compensate those who read my trauma stories….
https://imgur.com/a/K3pJ80k
They made my evening stroll a “miracle” ..🥰
Miss Snow,
“It’s looks like you’re writing monologues as well by addressing yourself in the posts. 😃”
Ha! I meant to address that to you. 🙂
“With our current pace and length, our chats will soon exceed 835 pages.”
True dat. 🙂
“Perhaps we could aim for Proust’s theme — In Search of Lost Time, subtitle: INFP Sisters in Limerence. Then we can just go on and on for 7 or more volumes. ”
OMG! I tried to read that. Or at least the “Swann in Love” part. I felt like I was swimming the English channel to get through ONE paragraph. One paragraph that was one VERY LONG sentence with a million subordinate clauses. I gave up after about 30 pages.
“I could count on my girlfriends for logistical stuff, but not so much thoughts/sentimentality sharing.”
Oh. I could count on my family for the practical stuff. At least when I was younger. I don’t think they’d do much for me now.
” They did not quite understand why the ways I felt and thought,”
My friends did. A handful of friends I’ve had have understood me. Or so I thought at the time. (I didn’t have them in my life all at the same time.)
“So I was lonely in mind and soul, and talked a lot silently in my head to those book characters.”
I felt lonely in mind and soul with my family. No emotional support.
“When he got better, of course, he went to date other prettier girls. She did not show any resentment when she told me, she felt “honored” or deeply appreciated that she was asked (not his own family members) to really HELP him.”
I mean, I think I would have been crushed. And resentful. But I guess she enjoyed the selflessness ? Or that he picked her to help him ? Did they at least remain friends?
“I will. I am doing it now… with 👻 👻 👻 … Isn’t it meaningful to chat with each other here⁉️”
Yes, but I think it’s reciprocal effort. Different than doing a lot more than the other person.
“Then they spend more time to meet up with their friends, casual, or intimate. Then when we get together, we discuss and debate about philosophical, psychological, arts and cultural stuff, as if we had the whole world of time in our hands.”
Yes, American culture is very rushed.
“Yes. Sometimes, two or three years. But when we get on phone, it’s at least 1 or 2 hours, to catch up with our logistical life and our mental/emotional journeys. ”
Yeah, I wouldn’t consider that a close friend.
“In some cultures, talking is considered “cheap/useless” but actions are valued as “substantial”. How many countries have talking therapy?”
I think it means something that your girlfriends will help you, but it’s different than someone being a part of your life on a regular basis.
“Current friends mean that if I want to chat with them or need help from them, they’d show up on the phone or in person, although I don’t often speak with them, besides holiday and birthday greetings.”
That’s how I’d define distant friends. Maybe minus the offers of help. But people you talk to every so often. Maybe the conversations are long but you don’t talk often.
“I need to use English with my limited vocabulary, which could make me more “verbose” — repeating the same set of words. 😌”
You said it, sister! You called yourself “verbose”! 🙂
“Hmmm… rewriting the history is much harder when/if one has sharp memories, but unforgeting or unforgiving…. Making/writing about a new history is better but it needs be more powerful in order to subside or renew the older historical parts… 😊”
Not sure what this has to do with me wanting the time back I’ve used to read (and subsequently aged while reading!) your “War and Peace” tomes. 🙂
“The worse is that many modern parents book their kids’ activities back to back and then “brag” about it: ‘they need to be busy, or they’d stare at the screen…’ “s/he is very good in this and that…. “ Many kids have no time after school to free-play with their peers.”
I’ve read about this. Kids don’t have time anymore to just go out and run down the street to the neighbor’s house to hang out. Everything is scheduled for them.
” You’d count yourself lucky if not being “date raped”❗️”
They don’t understand that “no” means no ?
“Also, they’re afraid to look deep inside. Busyness also numb one’s sensitivities and sensibilities; then less pains would be felt.”
That’s exactly what it is. If I just keep moving, keep busy, I don’t have to think about myself or my life.
” such as our OCD (you said you have it, right? my OCD is quite intense) or other types of neurodivergence.”
I’d say mine is more obsessive thinking. I’m not really compulsive in terms of repeated actions, like washing my hands.
“I met a girl of my age (the goose owner’s neighbor), and went to her home in the morning. I remember so clearly her young mother’s face-length straight hair with bangs and the sweetest smiles I had ever seen. There was a wooden bar across the ceiling from wall to wall, on which a thick willow bassinet was dangling. The mother was swinging her baby brother in it. I stared at it and wished so much I could be in that bassinet — the montage focus. I remembered most of my strong wishes/emotions/thoguhts from the childhood.”
Well, this is a nice memory. At least you have a nice memory after the hideous goose incident.
“Tha’t why it’s considered as a huge trauma here, so huge that it could make any kid to loose a whole chunk of memory.”
It’s sadistic. I’m sorry to say that. They way your dad told you.
“I heard Mom commenting to the nurse, “she’s good for nothing!” — that’s Mom, even at the moment of me passing out.”
I’m sorry she said that. It’s not uncommon for people to be very unnerved at the sight of flowing blood. As a medical professional, she should have known that.
“I could totally relate that. The high of racing heart or tipsy toes was intoxicating. But I did not pursue novelty or excitement, and disliked anxiety of facing unknown. ”
I haven’t watched the movie yet, but a lot of women are turned on by a little danger. So that’s why I could see that Russian guy in “Simple Passion” being appealing. Or at least his type. Plus, he’s married, so there’s the transgression.
“I used to get bored easily, but not anymore. ”
I wouldn’t say I’m bored. Just not excited.
“Putting aside their own flaws or shortcomings, they were safe and caring for my totally wellbeing — not just their own interests; they were a kind of Romeo or John Keats type, no matter what age bracket they’re in.”
The movie “Bright Star.” Have you seen it? It’s about Keats. You might like it. It’s very good.
“You said you’re not going to put efforts to make close friendship anymore for fear of losing it in the end. But a glimmer lasts much, much shorter than a close friendship, yet you still chased it relentlessly, even when it landed on a wrong LO?”
With the last full-blown LO, I chased, yes. My decision about putting less effort into friendship is a recent one. And with LO-lite … I chased for only a matter of a few weeks. Much less time and I did much less in terms of the chasing than I did with my LO. A little more than I probably should have but I didn’t go off the deep end or do anything, really, to feel embarrassed about. And I’m not chasing anymore.
“That’s very disheartening to have lost so much of time, indeed!”
I wasted YEARS of my life on that idiot.
“Perhaps you can dig deeper to find out what you really need to hear from him?”
I want to hear that he gives a s**t.
“Does he symbolize or represent someone or something else, which is MISSING inside you? Can anyone else, e.g. your “enemies/rivals” (if you have any), give some possible answers to you?”
The first question is a tough one. I don’t know how to answer it. I’ve discussed it with my therapist. It’s a pattern. I have to break the pattern. To find more appropriate people appealing. But it’s a lot easier said than done.
“I rarely like old actors acting, but John Hurt is an exception.”
Why? You can act forever. Age is irrelevant.
“As I told you, My Dad has his air as in his role in “1984”.”
I should watch that movie. I’ve never seen it. I LOVE Richard Burton.
“Yes, two day in a roll — Sat. Morning and Sun. Evening! And I remember these two lost lives well, due to their unique aliveness and personality! Life sucks if one really closely examines it.”
It does, right? There’s nothing else than can be said. Sometimes life just stinks.
“Demonstrate emotions in public is considered “uncouth”, or uncivilized.”
But wouldn’t you demonstrate emotions privately to your spouse?
“He still occasionally rambles or rages his LE resentments in our class SM room, in which his LO also is. ”
That’s kind of tacky. So everyone in the chat knows he’s limerent for his LO?
“The word “erratic” or “crazy” are two words often used for COO people to stereotypically describe Westerners. ”
We can be a lot of drama, yes. 🙂
“No, no way to do so! How many people in the West even know the word “limerence”? ”
That’s very true.
“How about naming our book to— “In Search of the Lost Time in Limerence”?”
I’ll have to think about it. I’m not a fan of that Proust book. 🙂
Miss Marcia,
“True dat. “
I’ve seen this phrase in other posts, what does it exactly mean?
“OMG! I tried to read that. Or at least the “Swann in Love” part. I felt like I was swimming the English channel to get through ONE paragraph. “
I like your analogy of swimming the English Channel, it’s so graphical! I enjoy reading poetry because of their rich images. As you know, my mother tongue is very graphical.
Congratulations! 🎈 — you’re tried the longest sentence in the whole world: it measured 4 meters long and wrapped a wine bottle 17 rounds! I haven’t got that one yet in reading. I very occasionally listened to its audio version so I could fall back asleep in the middle of night, it worked every single time!
“Oh. I could count on my family for the practical stuff. At least when I was younger. I don’t think they’d do much for me now. “
Well, when our folks grow older, only friends or siblings are possible resources for practical stuff. Do you have any siblings? Are you close to them? I’m a single child, like your limerent buddy, MJ – 🪣 💦 😀
”My friends did. A handful of friends I’ve had have understood me. Or so I thought at the time. “
I did not get very upset, either when my “close” friends did not comprehend me. I guessed back then, I already had a Phantom in my head who could always understand me….
“I felt lonely in mind and soul with my family. No emotional support. “
Since 4 (I can remember my strong thoughts/emotions ever since 4), I dreamt to have a “bosom” sibling/friend with whom I could just chat about every single matter in the whole galaxy! Never got one in any given period.
“I mean, I think I would have been crushed. And resentful. But I guess she enjoyed the selflessness ? Or that he picked her to help him ? Did they at least remain friends?”
I think most of Western women would have been crushed, but not many Asian women who have a different mindset. It’s not “selflessness”, either. Somehow we learned and experienced the satisfaction /contentment /joy of “pure” giving — without expecting to get anything back. When there is no exception, then there is no disappointment, no longing pain. It’s really not a cliche. One knows it when truly doing it!
This gf was/is NOT in Limerent tribe, I was very close to her when she was studying her ph.D here. We could get together within 10 minutes at my home, had shared or separate dinner, then chatted a half night through. We chatted through a half of the galaxy, basically! Then, she went back to Japan to teach, extremely hard to get a position here in her field.
She was in the secret crush with that TV presenter and they were good friends. So she spent a month, day and night at his apartment until he came out his suicide bout. I believe they remained loose friendship after he got married. She truly felt her CAPABILITY, FRIENDSHIP, WORTH were appreciated and honored!
I know with the same event, there would be two sets of attitude; that’s just ONE difference between the Western and Eastern mentality, based on my observation. My gf’s behavior is not a minority at all. I’ve seen and benefited from tons of “selfless” giving (from my relatives and ordinary friends). If you calculate or pay for their substantial help, they’d really, deeply feel insulated, because heart-felt help cannot be measured in gold.
Quentin Crisp shockingly said (in the film), “ I never understand people who say, I felt I’d been used. Because think of the people who’ve never been used, life’s much harder for them.”
In the West, most people also want to feel needed and ‘used’, but mostly for profits/money. In the East, more people (by proportion of population) want to feel valued and needed, but paid with equal, qualified friendship/kind deeds instead of countable silver coins. You pay them back with kind, “selfless” deeds or action-based friendship. I can’t stress enough our different concepts about Friendship; to me personally, Talking alone is “cheap” no matter what beautiful words are piled….
This Japanese gf also had 3-year secret PA with a married faculty member in her university. I asked if she felt being used as a mistress; she said, “No, I felt my body was really appreciated. I enjoyed it.” She has a common appearance, very short and thin, with a flat chest, never wore makeups. She’s laid-back, sincerely curious, very humble, totally non-judgmental, and had tons of friends when she was here. She’s the chair of her department currently, in the male-dominating Japan.
She also had many one-night stand with strangers men when she was studying here, with the attitude to feel novelty “excitement”. Meanwhile, she had a serious boyfriend /soulmate from Argentina for 2 decades. They could not get married, because unable to find a teaching job in their respective specialty in the two country or here. Her Romeo finally got married under the family pressure, but was not truly happy.
“… Isn’t it meaningful to chat with each other here” Yes, but I think it’s reciprocal effort. Different than doing a lot more than the other person. “
A reciprocal effort/effect is secondary for me. The first and far most is: new ideas and inspiration brought in through chitchats, which could energize me to respond and ramble CREATIVELY. Trust me here (not mean to sound arrogant, if my head does not get spins and inspiration from your ideas or casual words, I’d fade out soon or later….
Everyone’s time or energy is limited, who wants to hear one’s own echos in any forms⁉️ (to think that I’d ever want a copy of myself in reality or on a ghost land is just, just 🙄 … If I find one, my teeth would be bored off… 😊 )
To truly reciprocate in sustainable chats also requires similar mentality (curiosity, openness, flexibility, adaptability, etc), similar personality or personal background (traumas), and at similar moods. If one of us is still in the deep throe of limerence with its acute anxiety or irritation, we could not carry out fair, light-hearted discussions, like I was in the Spring of a year ago, when my mind could hardly think straight, troubled by the fixed departure date with ET….
“Yeah, I wouldn’t consider that a close friend. “
My Japanese gf and I speak once every one or two years, but it always lasted long (1-3 hours). When I went to Japan, I stayed in her house with her sweet mother, who cooked delicious meals for us. Then of course, more of half a night through chats.
“I think it means something that your girlfriends will help you, but it’s different than someone being a part of your life on a regular basis. “
That’s definitely true.
“That’s how I’d define distant friends. Maybe minus the offers of help. But people you talk to every so often. Maybe the conversations are long but you don’t talk often. “
True. But I do NOT NEED to talk often with them. I might be wrong but I get a sense, that you or many Americans, men and women, have a NEED to chat very often. For us, it’s icing on the cake. I enjoy chats in depth (like here with you), but it’s not a NEED, although highly enjoyable and delightful. I distinguish NEEDS from WANTs. I would NOT get crushed if my wants are unmet, but I can’t go on without eating and sleeping for days.
Do you think limerence to some of us feels like a need, instead of just an obsessive desire? Or this desire is just 100 times stronger even than a need? Some limerents probably did go on without food for 10 days while beholding their LO with their dozing 😍…
“You said it, sister! You called yourself “verbose”! “
Ha, here comes a big advantage as a ESL speaker! 😆 — can understand and use English words well, but can’t FEEL them! If someone says f* word to me, I intellectually know it’s a curse, but it doesn’t hurt my feelings; it can’t register in my neural system. But if f* is said in my mother tongue, my whole system would feel on fire🔥. So I’m verbose now, in repeating/recycling the same set of words (but I don’t chant…) 😀
“Not sure what this has to do with me wanting the time back I’ve used to read (and subsequently aged while reading!) your “War and Peace” tomes. “
Well, you want to reverse your “aging” through a rewrite of the verbose tomes of “War and Peace”, so what/how it can be done⁉️ I assume that a rewrite has to be much shorter, mentally stimulating, spiritually inspiring, emotionally provoking, sensuously teasing, and sensually tickling,… so as to spin your head and toes around and around, day and night waiting for the following chapter…. until your lost youth is brought back subconsciously at a visceral level…❓❓
And you think my single hand could accomplish such a task in my remaining life time? 🙄
“I’ve read about this. Kids don’t have time anymore to just go out and run down the street to the neighbor’s house to hang out. Everything is scheduled for them. “
Precisely. I’ve been teaching a weekend heritage school, dealing with kids from k-12 so get to hear directly from those parents’ bragging. I felt so sorry for those kids, some often dozing off in the class, because they came from math or chess or swimming class right beforehand, and go immediately to other trainings right afterwards, piano, ski, birthday party, etc. They don’t have free plays even in the weekend!
[” You’d count yourself lucky if not being “date raped”
”They don’t understand that “no” means no ?]
I don’t think you’ve truly lived in a macho culture, in which, most of men lead in romance /dating /mating! They get angry if you truly mean “No” or tthink you’re playing Coy game with a teasing No.
To be respected with a Yes or No answer, women need to be equal with men educationally, socially, and finally. Do they have those entitled rights, “privileges”, and cultural senses in those macho cultures? Just think of the eras before any feminine movements in the West.
In COO, besides the only two female Emperors, have you heard of any Emperor’s wife? But a few concubines’ names become a “legend” due to their legendary beauty or their legendary bound feet!
“I’d say mine is more obsessive thinking. I’m not really compulsive in terms of repeated actions, like washing my hands. “
The same here, more mental OCD than physical one (I used to play with my face, trying to get rid of pimples. Never hand washing). I could dwell on how to respond a post for hours and then could re-read my own finished posts from 3-6 times, even if I could no longer edit them. A four “purple” lines could take me from 10 minutes to 48 hours to finalize.
“It’s sadistic. I’m sorry to say that. They way your dad told you. “
It’s more ignorance. As said before, the whole COO is very, very ignorant of psychology and child development. Even today, majority of people over there can’t define what are emotional and mental abuses as ordinary people do here, while physical/corporal punishment of children are still common (much less than before).
They don’t know power of words nor understand children’s psychology; many include my parents, think children can think and feel at levels as adults can, thus can stomach things adults are able to. If you’re not, they’ll train you right on the spot!
If you explain what mental/emotional “sadistic” or “masochistic” means, 99.9% people there still wouldn’t understand what you’re talking about; they’d argue with you that they are just a bounch of words, not real actions. “Words will evaporate” would be a typical answer. If you remember, then you’re unforgiving.
Therefore, they believe children or grownups would soon or later forget words, ignorant of any words’ psychological effects. That’s why Mom still holds her ground arguing what she did to me was culturally accepted and all other parents did the same “training”! I feel wounded is because I’ve learned a bunch of psychological terms, (otherwise, my pains would not even have existed! ).
She still refuses to give any apology in any degree for any matter. And she’s a retired, highly “logical” surgeon with SELECTED memories, and a Narc in denial, a huge luck for me if I try to change her mind before she exist….
Also, people over there can’t understand children’s natural attachment to their pets, their fear of watching violent movies, their horrors of beholding flowing blood, etc. The older generations suffered hunger and starvation, so the food is always treated like gold, any waste of food is thought as “evil”!
Dad’s mocking was: “you cried for two hours, but when the chick was served on the table, you eagerly ate the first bite. Don’t tell me now you were truly feeling sad… “ I had/have no memory of anything after that chick disappeared from her box, nor that meal, nor all the following meals, evening activities with them until I went to Granny’s home 1.5 years later. My therapist finally found a reason for the loss of my memories.
Another true story here: I was a childless teacher’s pet in that weekcare. So she often sneaked me out during the nap time to do errands with her. I liked it. One time when I was 5-6 yrs, she brought me to see a political event with a sad movie. I was so frightened that my legs just kept shaking and I constantly ducked my head behind the back of the front seat…. Another remembered trauma. I worked it with my therapist; she said many children get culturally traumatized because the entire culture is ignorant.
“I’m sorry she said that. It’s not uncommon for people to be very unnerved at the sight of flowing blood. As a medical professional, she should have known that.
See the above paragraphs. I was trained on the spot but failed. Ever since she gave up the hope that I’d become a highly respected doctor.
“… but a lot of women are turned on by a little danger. So that’s why I could see that Russian guy in “Simple Passion” being appealing. Or at least his type. Plus, he’s married, so there’s the transgression. “
I think I said before that if I grew up in this culture, I’d appreciate a little danger here of there; life here in general is peaceful and safe. But in the “dangerous” environment, in which your spouse, children, close friends could betray you for survival, so you might end up in a secret labor camp or a prison, everyone wants a sense of “safety” FIRST at all cost. You probably could sense the fear of living under Big Brother’s nose, if you read or watch “1984”. Imagine you live in North Korea and try to date a married American diplomat!
“I wouldn’t say I’m bored. Just not excited. “
If you feel joyful more frequently, you’d not care about excitement. Your feet would feel lighter, figuratively speaking. With a romantic sense in general matters, aside from Limerence, other things in life would become more exciting, of course, to a certain degree. Nothing can compete with a pair-bonding excitement!
“The movie “Bright Star.” Have you seen it? It’s about Keats. You might like it. It’s very good. “
Yes. A couple of times. That’s why I refer John Keats as my Glimmer type.
“With the last full-blown LO, I chased, yes. My decision about putting less effort into friendship is a recent one. “
I get that.
“And with LO-lite … I chased for only a matter of a few weeks. Much less time and I did much less in terms of the chasing than I did with my LO. A little more than I probably should have but I didn’t go off the deep end or do anything, really, to feel embarrassed about. And I’m not chasing anymore. “
Great! Chasing unavailable or even available LOs would lead us into LE obsession. With our OCD neural wiring, we need to be extra cautious.
“I wasted YEARS of my life on that idiot.
I’m sorry that you’ve suffered that long (originally I thought it was only 2-3 years)
“I want to hear that he gives a s**t. “
WOW, Slow down, Sister! What “gives a s**t” means linguistically or culturally, and persoanlly? What “s**t” do you want him to “give”? Can anyone else, in your entire history, “give a s**t” to you? Did you have it when you were a child or teenager?
[“Does he symbolize or represent someone or something else, which is MISSING inside you? Can anyone else, e.g. your “enemies/rivals” (if you have any), give some possible answers to you?” The first question is a tough one. I don’t know how to answer it. ]
Perhaps that’s a missing KEY, to open a door, to enter a room filled with causes and solutions, then to exit the gate of LE-tendency prison?
“I’ve discussed it with my therapist. It’s a pattern. I have to break the pattern. “
Well, does the therapist tell you how this pattern is formed? Without knowing its origins or complex labyrinth, how is one going to break it or get out ? Or avoid fall into another LE maze?
“To find more appropriate people appealing. But it’s a lot easier said than done. “
It sounds like an approach to treat symptoms, but not underneath causes❓
“Why? You can act forever. Age is irrelevant. “
Aged actors/actress is not a problem, but they remind me death, even a wise death; it’s still death… 😈 But John Hurt’s Englishman has brought a sense of youth to me, it’s inspiring to see how fully and joyful he lived his last years (73-90 yrs) in New York. Age is really mental, not physical. You’ll understand what I mean if you watch the movie. He’s so sharply witty and deliciously campy! I almost laughed to the floor 😂…
“I should watch that movie. I’ve never seen it. I LOVE Richard Burton. “
Go ahead! Richard Burton is a complicated, representative of Big Brother! I also like Julia’s actress, feisty.
“It does, right? There’s nothing else than can be said. Sometimes life just stinks.”
They made me very gloomy in my walk last evening in a heavy fog — all the bridges in our signature river completely disappeared, so surreal…. until I bumped into two Canadian Geese families, which then cheered me up immediately! Grownup geese are so protective that they’re ready to attack you if you get one step closer to their youngsters! No wonder that headless goose ran around and around “infinitely”, or it was just my illusion before losing my head…❓
“But wouldn’t you demonstrate emotions privately to your spouse? “
Much less in the past, compared to what I see in Western movies. We were not “trained” by romantic culture. I remember it felt very uncomfortable, contrived to verbally express emotions to my SO (silent, physical demonstrations were fine) . I don’t remember I ever uttered “I love you” to anyone in the both worlds, although I could write purple proses in all sorts of images to MEAN/SAY such 3 magical words…
“That’s kind of tacky. So everyone in the chat knows he’s limerent for his LO?”
I agree with you. Yes, everyone in the room including his LO knows. We all laughed behind his back, but he seems not to feel embarrassed, nor his wife (I knew little of her back then).
“We can be a lot of drama, yes. “
For the record, you said so, Sister! 😆 🤭 We were so puzzled to watch your movies…. 🧐
“How about naming our book to— “In Search of the Lost Time in Limerence”?” I’ll have to think about it. I’m not a fan of that Proust book. “
But I just added two important, distinguish words in the title “…. In Limerence”, which well fits our theme, everyone here included — how much time every limerent has lost in their one or serial episodes of limerence⁉️ How many “broken” hearts, sleepless nights, dizzy daydreaming, drooling eyes, limbs aches, internal organs churning, and spirit-shattered suicidal attempts…. involved⁉️
Goor gracious, I’m spending at least half of my vacation day/night or even longer just to respond your posts alone! 😊 I really enjoy it, without any neediness… Sorry to other 👻 👻 👻… I NEED more time to eat and sleep… 😇
Thank you, Sister, for the inspirational company 🫂 ❗️
Snow,
Language stuff:
‘True ‘dat’ = it’s true, that.
‘Give a s*it’ = care about, at least a little.
My pleasure. I’ll drink up my coffee and head back to the audience for this show.
Miss Snow,
“what does it exactly mean?”
See the definitions below, provided by Trucker.
“I very occasionally listened to its audio version so I could fall back asleep in the middle of night, it worked every single time!”
Yes! The prose is do dull.
“Well, when our folks grow older, only friends or siblings are possible resources for practical stuff.”
Well, you’re lucky. I don’t have friends who will do practical stuff. Maybe a little help here and there but I’m under no illusion I should expect more.
“Do you have any siblings? Are you close to them? ”
One sibling. Not close.
“I’m a single child, like your limerent buddy, MJ – 🪣 💦 😀”
Who has disappeared again! I’m in the market for a new boyfriend. 🙂
“I did not get very upset, either when my “close” friends did not comprehend me. ”
I haven’t had a friend that like in years. It’s the kind of friendship where you have to spend a lot of time together, to really get to know each other.
“Since 4 (I can remember my strong thoughts/emotions ever since 4), I dreamt to have a “bosom” sibling/friend with whom I could just chat about every single matter in the whole galaxy! ”
But I thought you wrote you had friends who you could chat with for hours ?
“We chatted through a half of the galaxy, basically!”
So it sounds like you have had friends you could really chat with.
“She was in the secret crush with that TV presenter and they were good friends.”
How do you know she wasn’t limerent? Just from what she said?
“In the West, most people also want to feel needed and ‘used’, but mostly for profits/money. In the East, more people (by proportion of population) want to feel valued and needed, but paid with equal, qualified friendship/kind deeds instead of countable silver coins. You pay them back with kind, “selfless” deeds or action-based friendship.”
I totally agree with this. But it doesn’t sound like your gf’s crush gave her much in return. What did he do for her?
“Talking alone is “cheap” no matter what beautiful words are piled….”
I agree.
“She also had many one-night stand with strangers men when she was studying here, with the attitude to feel novelty “excitement”. Meanwhile, she had a serious boyfriend /soulmate from Argentina for 2 decades. ”
I’ve never really been able to do that. Juggling more than one person at once. I’m a little envious of her. 🙂 When I was young (and it was easier to meet people in person), I might have met men back-to-back. But they didn’t really overlap.
“Her Romeo finally got married under the family pressure, but was not truly happy.”
Is she single now? Was she very disappointed when he married someone else?
“A reciprocal effort/effect is secondary for me. The first and far most is: new ideas and inspiration brought in through chitchats, which could energize me to respond and ramble CREATIVELY. ”
I agree. Reciprocal effort is also secondary for me. I’d say first is just enjoyment of the conversation and connection with the poster (that being you!). Also maybe learning something, a new perspective. But if the effort wasn’t at least in part reciprocal, I’d stop posting to you.
“Everyone’s time or energy is limited, who wants to hear one’s own echos in any forms⁉️”
True. It’s always good to bounce off other people. To get differing opinions.
“To truly reciprocate in sustainable chats also requires similar mentality (curiosity, openness, flexibility, adaptability, etc), similar personality or personal background (traumas), and at similar moods.”
Timing is a big one, too. We landed on the site together, around the same time, and have time to post to each other.
“If one of us is still in the deep throe of limerence with its acute anxiety or irritation, we could not carry out fair, light-hearted discussions, like I was in the Spring of a year ago, when my mind could hardly think straight, troubled by the fixed departure date with ET….”
Again, it’s timing.
[“I think it means something that your girlfriends will help you, but it’s different than someone being a part of your life on a regular basis. “]
“That’s definitely true.”
So they call it being a witness to someone’s daily life. And I use the word “daily” loosely. I don’t have to talk to a friend every day. But I need to have some idea of what’s going on in their lives and I’d like them to have some idea of what’s going on in mine. I used to have a friend with whom I’d email a little bit and then, every two weeks or so, we’d have a phone call. (She was long distance.) And if there was big stuff happening in her life (a scary trip to the doctor, a situation with one of her pets) I knew about it and would check in. That would be my idea of a close friend. I might not know what she was doing every day, but I knew the big stuff.
“True. But I do NOT NEED to talk often with them. I might be wrong but I get a sense, that you or many Americans, men and women, have a NEED to chat very often. ”
I don’t necessarily need to talk a long time, but I do like to check in.
“I distinguish NEEDS from WANTs. I would NOT get crushed if my wants are unmet, but I can’t go on without eating and sleeping for days.”
Yeah, I get that, but if I hear from the person once a year, that feels distant to me.
“Do you think limerence to some of us feels like a need, instead of just an obsessive desire? Or this desire is just 100 times stronger even than a need?”
For me, it feels like a compulsion.
“Ha, here comes a big advantage as a ESL speaker! 😆 — can understand and use English words well, but can’t FEEL them!”
Ah, so that’s your excuse. 🙂
“Well, you want to reverse your “aging” through a rewrite of the verbose tomes of “War and Peace”, so what/how it can be done⁉️”
It can’t. You’ve aged me! 🙂
“I assume that a rewrite has to be much shorter, mentally stimulating, spiritually inspiring, emotionally provoking, sensuously teasing, and sensually tickling”
You had me at the word “shorter.” 🙂
“until your lost youth is brought back subconsciously at a visceral level…❓❓… And you think my single hand could accomplish such a task in my remaining life time? 🙄”
If you can, let me know. I’d love to revisit my youth. 🙂
” I felt so sorry for those kids, some often dozing off in the class, because they came from math or chess or swimming class right beforehand, and go immediately to other trainings right afterwards, piano, ski, birthday party, etc. They don’t have free plays even in the weekend!”
And from what I read, it robs kids of the ability to use their imaginations. If they have no “free play.” Everything is too structured.
“I don’t think you’ve truly lived in a macho culture, in which, most of men lead in romance /dating /mating!”
Well, in the online dating I’m doing, I’m definitely letting them lead. They suggest a phone call, they ask me out. Doesn’t mean I’m not responding or that I don’t initiate contact once we’ve established some kind of communication pattern, for example.
“They get angry if you truly mean “No” or think you’re playing Coy game with a teasing No.”
No one is guaranteed anything. Or owed anything. Either side.
“Do they have those entitled rights, “privileges”, and cultural senses in those macho cultures? Just think of the eras before any feminine movements in the West.”
There’s some of that here. This is still a patriarchal nation. But I think probably much less so than in your COO.
“In COO, besides the only two female Emperors, have you heard of any Emperor’s wife? But a few concubines’ names become a “legend” due to their legendary beauty or their legendary bound feet!”
That is interesting in that the U.S. has never had a female president. I still don’t think we’re ready.
” I could dwell on how to respond a post for hours ”
You mean posts on here?
“It’s more ignorance. As said before, the whole COO is very, very ignorant of psychology and child development. Even today, majority of people over there can’t define what are emotional and mental abuses as ordinary people do here, while physical/corporal punishment of children are still common (much less than before).”
It’s kind of strange because your parents are so educated.
“think children can think and feel at levels as adults can, thus can stomach things adults are able to. If you’re not, they’ll train you right on the spot!”
I know a little of what you’re talking about. I was tacitly shamed for acting like a kid or enjoying kid things or teen things when I was younger. Like I was silly or ridiculous.
“She still refuses to give any apology in any degree for any matter. And she’s a retired, highly “logical” surgeon with SELECTED memories, and a Narc in denial, a huge luck for me if I try to change her mind before she exist….”
Very logical people can be hard to talk to about emotions. My parental was the same way. Would never admit/acknowledge anything. I was hoping for some big, cathartic conversation about the past. It was never going to happen.
“The older generations suffered hunger and starvation, so the food is always treated like gold, any waste of food is thought as “evil”!”
So they see an attachment to pets and a fear of violent movies and flowing blood as so much less than what they suffered, so what’s your problem?
“Dad’s mocking was: “you cried for two hours, but when the chick was served on the table, you eagerly ate the first bite. Don’t tell me now you were truly feeling sad… “
That sounds like a dismissive attitude.
“One time when I was 5-6 yrs, she brought me to see a political event with a sad movie. I was so frightened that my legs just kept shaking and I constantly ducked my head behind the back of the front seat….”
I had an experience like that. I was taken to the movie “Gorky Park.” It scared me. An American investigates 3 murders in the Soviet Union. Their faces were cut off.
“See the above paragraphs. I was trained on the spot but failed. Ever since she gave up the hope that I’d become a highly respected doctor.”
She doesn’t understand you. You’re an artistic person. Not a scientist.
” But in the “dangerous” environment, in which your spouse, children, close friends could betray you for survival, so you might end up in a secret labor camp or a prison, everyone wants a sense of “safety” FIRST at all cost. ”
I understand. And not every woman here is looking for danger. Just to be clear.
“If you feel joyful more frequently, you’d not care about excitement. ”
“Joyful” is a strong word. 🙂
“Nothing can compete with a pair-bonding excitement!”
Well, yeah, that’s the problem. Because the excitement doesn’t last.
“That’s why I refer John Keats as my Glimmer type.”
I really like the actor playing Keats. I’ve seen him in a number of things. He’s very good. He’s the kind of guy you could bond with emotionally … but I can’t see him laying it down well. I’m sorry. 🙂
“Great! Chasing unavailable or even available LOs would lead us into LE obsession.”
Well, it wasn’t so much that as I am trying to maintain a shred of self-respect.
“I’m sorry that you’ve suffered that long (originally I thought it was only 2-3 years)”
I wouldn’t let it go. It’s my fault.
“WOW, Slow down, Sister! What “gives a s**t” means linguistically or culturally, and persoanlly?”
Trucker explained it below. I want him to care about me. Have feelings for me beyond wanting to have sex with me.
“Perhaps that’s a missing KEY, to open a door, to enter a room filled with causes and solutions, then to exit the gate of LE-tendency prison?”
I just have to stay away from people who cause that kind of reaction in me. They trigger me. All the anxiety. Of course, the problem is … part of me must dig it.
“Well, does the therapist tell you how this pattern is formed? Without knowing its origins or complex labyrinth, how is one going to break it or get out ? Or avoid fall into another LE maze?”
It’s all my childhood. It really isn’t that complicated. Picking someone out who’s like the opposite sex parent. Or at least recreating the dynamic with them.
“It sounds like an approach to treat symptoms, but not underneath causes❓”
Well, that can be fixed. IMO. The causes. Just pick men to date who are … oh, I don’t know … emotionally/physically available. 🙂 Who aren’t playing games/hot and cold.
“Aged actors/actress is not a problem, but they remind me death, even a wise death; it’s still death… 😈 ”
Well, yeah, but what you would you have them do? Hide? Not act anymore?
“But John Hurt’s Englishman has brought a sense of youth to me, it’s inspiring to see how fully and joyful he lived his last years (73-90 yrs) in New York. ”
One movie I really like … speaking of witty men … is “Wilde.” Have you seen it? About Oscar Wilde? He was a limerent. Became besotted for a man (played by the impossibly beautiful Jude Law) and risked his life for him.
“They made me very gloomy in my walk last evening in a heavy fog — all the bridges in our signature river completely disappeared, so surreal…. until I bumped into two Canadian Geese families, which then cheered me up immediately! ”
I’m glad you’re feeling better.
” I don’t remember I ever uttered “I love you” to anyone in the both worlds, although I could write purple proses in all sorts of images to MEAN/SAY such 3 magical words…”
You never told your husband that you loved him?
“I agree with you. Yes, everyone in the room including his LO knows. ”
He sounds very immature. Like he’s having tantrums.
“But I just added two important, distinguish words in the title “…. In Limerence”, which well fits our theme, everyone here included — how much time every limerent has lost in their one or serial episodes of limerence⁉️”
That’s true. “In Search of Lost Minds and Lost Time in Limerence” 🙂
“Thank you, Sister, for the inspirational company 🫂 ❗️”
Thank you as well. I’ve enjoyed chatting. 🙂
Altitude
Airea D. Matthews
Icarus, he advised,
heed the warning: don’t fly
too near the sun or sea;
stay the path.
But I mistook the sky for an iris,
and entered at the northern horizon,
where map edges blister,
and the compass wasps.
I was dutiful but unwooed
by chisel and bench, contracts
scribbled in fig sap, or watching
Ariadne ungold time.
What awe is there
in earthen labyrinths?
Wax molds itself sublime,
shapes wings each night.
Light refracts my name in
dialect only moths comprehend.
I belong elemental, where trees
chance to become constellations,
where the bar-headed goose flies
past with the heart of a clock and
Zeus is a silver kite tethered
to Olympus by harp strings
trembling an offering.
Of bliss? To remember
the why of it all.
Bliss is a body absconding
warp speed toward
a dwarf star whispering,
Unsee the beheld.
My fall, well, yes,
those depths matter less.
What I learned by height—
that’s the story.
******
What I learned by leap and dive —
that’s the story.
🐦🔥