A couple of days ago, I held a launch event for my book, Smitten, at Five Leaves – an excellent independent bookshop in Nottingham.
It was a fun evening. My wife, Teika, gamely agreed to act as compere and set the scene with some questions about neuroscience and limerence and the background to the book.
After that preamble, we opened to the audience for a Q&A, and had a lively discussion with some laughs, some serious bits, and some insightful questions.
Because the audience was a mix of friends, fans of the blog, and complete strangers who were learning about limerence for the first time, we ranged over a lot of topics. So, for this week’s post I thought I’d summarise some of the more intriguing queries along with links to some previous posts that expand on the themes.
Here we go:
Is there a reason why limerence exists?
Given how disruptive limerence can be to life, this is a good question – why do some of us have this trait built into us? This tendency to get caught up in a whirlwind of romantic obsession.
My best answer to this was an evolutionary argument about the benefits of pair-bonding and the idea that limerence is like the peacock’s tail – an ostentatious display of single-minded desire that demonstrates an extraordinary commitment to the pair bond. That works as a reproductive strategy. So, it makes sense from the perspective of making babies.
Does childhood experience affect limerence?
Absolutely yes. Our individual attachment styles are going to influence our experience of limerence. While people who have secure, avoidant, anxious and disorganised styles can all experience limerence, anxious attachers are significantly more likely to be limerents too.
There’s so much overlap between attachment theory and romantic desire that it’s inevitable that how you bond will influence how you experience limerence.
Do LGBTQ folks experience limerence in a different way to straight folks?
This question came from a gay man whose limerent objects have tended to be straight men. A rough turn of fate – although he was able to laugh about it. Predictably, that reality has shaped his trials with limerence, and illustrated the point of how our own specific individual circumstances decide the effects that limerence has on our lives.
More broadly, people of all different sexualities report limerence at roughly the same rate as straight people. The only outlier is bisexuals, who seem to be more prone to limerence.
Why do bisexuals experience limerence more commonly?
I guess the inevitable follow up question to the previous discussion! I don’t have a great answer here, but a bisexual audience member chipped in to make a couple of suggestions.
It could be that bisexuals are generally more open to romantic adventure by their temperament and that corresponds to chasing the thrills of limerence. An analogy could be drawn to the Big 5 personality traits, where “Openness to experience” is a key dimension in which people differ. Do they enjoy novelty or do they enjoy familiarity?
The other option suggested was it’s simply about numbers. You have double the chance of meeting a limerent object if you draw from “everyone” rather than “half of everyone” as your dating pool.
Does limerence suggest that monogamous marriage is not the best way to organise our lives?
I took this question to mean “if limerence for one person inevitably fades, and limerence for new people will likely happen, does that mean we would be happier in non-monogamous marriages?”
This topic does come up a lot, as limerents can often end up in the difficult position of being in love with a long-term partner, but in limerence for someone new.
It’s obviously a huge debate. Social monogamy is a near universal human tradition, but there are lots of other ways to organise life. I blathered on about some of the pluses and minuses and then let people decide for themselves.
Do people who are addicted to drugs experience limerence in a different way?
I think this was the question of the evening for me, because it was a new angle that I’d not considered before. It followed a discussion about how behavioural addictions differ from substance addictions, because drugs that act on the brain directly interfere with the operation of the reward and arousal circuits. They mess with your brain chemistry.
One of the audience members had worked with people in rehab and wondered if the disruption caused by drug abuse might change their experience of limerence. Are they more or less prone? Does limerence become a sort of “behavioural methadone” that recovering addicts use as a replacement for their previous habit?
Are the disrupted circuits more or less primed to new addictions?
If you think you are an LO what should you do?
Be clear, be unambiguous about your lack of romantic interest, and don’t make the mistake of thinking that “letting them down gently” is the most compassionate response. It’s actually much better to help the limerent remove the hope and uncertainty that feeds the limerence flame.
Do neurodivergent folks experience limerence in a different way?
This question was initially about how limerence relates to the hyperfocus of autism spectrum neurodivergence, but opened out to other conditions too. I made a video about this topic a short time ago.
The overall message is that any neurodivergent traits you have will affect how limerence manifests for you as an individual, but are unlikely to have “caused” your limerence directly.
Can we email you with additional questions?
This was the last question of the evening, and the honest answer is “Yes” because I always enjoy learning about limerence and hearing people’s stories, but the even more honest answer is “Yes, but I am a bit overwhelmed at the moment!”
There’s bit a flood to my inbox and every time I make headway, some new messages arrive.
So, please don’t feel slighted if you haven’t heard from me despite emailing a query.
I do read everything, but the answers are having to be limited just at the moment.
Any thoughts on these questions, or any ideas to add, go for it in the comments!
Firstly, thank you so much for all the work you have done and your wonderful resources. I discovered your blog and book after reading the Observer review a couple of weeks ago, and it was the breakthrough I’d needed for some time. I’ve read the book and am following an action plan.
There was mention in Coffee House about a boot camp. I would find this helpful because everyone who posts here is in a different situation, and it would be good to have a smaller group to be able to discuss things with in more detail and encourage each other on our journeys.
Also, it would be really helpful to have a search function for the blog (apologies if I just haven’t found it) because I’m sure some of my questions have been discussed or answered before.
Thank you for this work of yours. Being quite literate myself, I was amazed to discover the concept of limerance. I wish psychologists were more acquainted with it bc I have given up talking about my LO with my therapist as she seemed to be unable to fully understand.
Today I write here because I was looking for some answers since I have had a LO for 16 years. She was my first philosophy teacher in high school and I ended up taking a philosophy BA and MA bc I love the subject but somehow I fell in love with her so hard I still dream of her sometimes at night even though I had romantic relationships and evolved as a person a lot. At the beginning for years she was my only obsession, then something happened that I felt like a rejection and I tried to cut her out of my heart, unsuccessfully. I even tried transfering the limerance on my next philosophy teacher who is his friend and had been a bit like a father to me, but with him the relationship became a real nice friendship, no toxic traits, while with her things were always blurred and I could sense she was jealous of him. In a way she started it all though cause she took a liking on me and gave me special attentions that other people also noticed. When I became too attached to her she started to ignore me and stop me cause I went too far sometimes. Years afterwards I would still get very nervous near her and often think of her. We even talked about everything that happened in school and we decided to forgive one another. After that day I rarely saw her or messaged her cause I was trying to leave her behind and disintoxicate, since I still had some toxic behaviour although I tried to control myself. But she still was a fuel for my writing and my art as are many other things in my life. Then finally last year I felt free, so free I thought I didn’t even need to see her anymore, but I did. For the first time I felt like myself around her, truly, I felt free although still painfully aware of her presence. And what happened? She gave me enormous attention, she behaved in a way that really confused me, as if now that I didn’t want her anymore she wanted to have me around again. The touches, the hug, the kiss, that look in her eyes. She hadn’t be like that in so many years I was overwhelmed cause I wasn’t expecting anything at all. That only encounter was enough to trigger me and I felt like I was back at day 1. To me she’s such a symbolic figure: she embodied the person I would like to be, but she is also the person who introduced to me to my great love (philosophy), and she is also quite similar to me under many aspects, in fact sometimes I’m annoyed by her. It was always this love-hate relationship. Sometimes I wonder if I studied philosophy just bc it would make me feel closer to her. Do I really want to teach in school or do I want to become her colleague? She has always been so contradictory, just like me. When I would ignore her she would look for me, and when I would look for her she would ignore me. I still think of her, wondering what should I do. Her voice is the sweetest voice I’ve ever heard. Unlike other people with whom I have obsessed a bit over, this feeling is completely different. I’m not even a lesbian, but there is also a sexual tension between us, not just a mental attraction. Will I ever be completely free? Honestly I don’t think it’s possible at this point. It’s as if she’s engrained in my mind and carved in my heart. Even when I manage not to think of her for months I still see meet her in my dreams.
What a story! Interesting how your LO is a woman when you’re otherwise normally attracted to men. How long has it been since you discovered Tom’s work on limerence, and this blog? Do you think it has helped to understand what’s going on at a neurological level? Your LE is entwined with your life and it sounds as though your challenge is working out who you are, separate from your limerence. Are you putting into practice any of the advice on here?
To Päd:
Your story sounds so similar to mine. I fell limerent for my high school orchestra teacher. He was all I ever thought about. I graduated, went off to college to be a musician, tried to stay in touch with him but he stopped responding. I tried to forget about him. Even quit my instrument and left music. Did I love the orchestra because I loved him? Did I love him because I loved the orchestra?
I finished school in an unrelated discipline, met someone else, moved away, got married, had children, a whole career. I never forgot about my LO, but I had moved on. Still, I knew when he moved to a different town, and when tragedy stuck that town, it somehow re-triggered my limerence.
I hadn’t found this site yet or learned what limerence was, I just thought I was hopelessly and forever in love with this man. I wrote him a letter, he responded, we met up in person. It had been twenty years. He was exactly as I remembered him, and I felt I loved him just as much as I always had.
But history repeated itself. I tried to stay in touch with him, he stopped responding. We did get together in person one more time, but after that he more or less disappeared.
And good. I’m glad he would not stay connected. I’m a married woman and I love my husband and do not want an affair. Still, somehow I don’t think I’ll ever be entirely free of desire for my LO.
Hi Pad,
Uh, our story appear quite similar!
My LO is also my teacher, not at school (I’m middle aged) but at a hobby I’ve learned to love and invest a lot of time in. Like you, I don’t usually like ladies (and i have a male SO), but I guess I’m probably bi. I guess, at the beginning, she suddenly gave me a lot of attention, and I had a little crush. I thought it was odd but fun. Then she looked at me in an intense way and I was off to limerence 🤷
That was two years ago, and the relationship has been incredibly rocky. We communicate badly and seem to be rejecting each other most of the time. You terrify me with your 16 years, I cannot possibly continue this that long 😱
At the moment we’re on very shaky ground, she’s constantly mad at me I’m perpetually sad and I’m considering wether I should leave everything related to her. I suppose the LE is arriving at the end of its course… I hope I can weather the storm and come out with most of my boat.
In any case, I can see the problem with a return of warmth and closeness. I fall back eeeeevery time.
Do you have a friendship with her? If not, is this something you can ask her if she wants with you, now that she’s come back in your life?
I’ve wondered if what I really wanted was not just to be close to her emotionally (as friends) but we’re not in good enough terms for that to happen. So I’m kind of curious !
Best wishes
S.anon Your situation sounds stressful. That’s sad that your friendship/connection with her is shaky. You mention that you wonder whether you should leave everything related to her. Is there scope to do this while retaining your hobby? Or would you have to leave a hobby you loved as well? Or is your love for the hobby tied to your love for her anyway?
Hi monochrome,
Thanks for your comment
Yeah, it is stressfull and sad at the moment. She is too, although it’s likely not mainly linked to this situation. It’s a bit like watching a slow car crash and I’m wondering wether I should leave before the end.
I could try to do this hobby elsewhere, but I’m not sure I’d immediately feel like it anyway, and I would have to leave a lot of people that are becoming friends in the process. I’ll likely stay and bide a little bit more time, if I can.
Your launch event sounds wonderful and how perfect that Teika partnered with you on it! I wish I could have been there. I’m hoping there will be loads more events like this and I’ll be able to attend one and get an autographed copy of Smitten.
Congratulations!
Question for fellow (and particularly ex-) limerents
I’ve been working hard at noticing the intrusive thoughts about LO, acknowledging them, letting go and purposefully thinking of something else. It’s early days and some days are easier than others. It occurs to me that this is a mindfulness technique. I wonder if any of you have found practising mindfulness helpful in getting themselves out of their Limerent Episode, and would be happy to share thoughts and experiences?
For myself, no. Mindfulness and meditation has helped me with a lot of other things, but when I’m in the throes of limerence I need to stabilize myself with action, and even force myself to upregulate to anger for a few minutes before sitting with the discomfort of my limerence.
Then I keep forcing myself to rationalize the situation and potential outcomes. Then I try to be as honest with myself as I can and I see my thought patterns and potential behavior as ridiculous and self harming.
Thank you! It’s good to know what things have *not* helped as well as what has. Sometimes spending too much thinking and analysing the situation can give our limerent brain an excuse to spend the time thinking about LO which just feeds the obsession instead or helping us to break out of the cycle of limerent thoughts.
(Obviously I’m very glad that Dr L put the work and time into analysing the situation!)
I have found mindfulness works up to a point. Before you get hit full on by the limerence bus, you learn to recognise the signs. If I’m starting to feel heady in someone’s presence, I check myself and ask ‘where is this feeling coming from’? This tends to check the urge to project all your long repressed feelings onto the potential LO, prevents you from idealising them and returns your own sense of agency. But once the bus hits, that obviously becomes harder.
I’m reading your book at the moment, Tom, and am fascinated. I only wish I’d access to these ideas years ago when I was in the grip of the most destabilising bout of limerence. I recall when I finally confessed my feelings to my LO, she was dismissive. “It’s just infatuation. You’ll get over it.” How could she reduce this epic and intense emotion to something so banal? Of course, she was right that I would get over it, but I think it was something more than a crush or an infatuation. I recall going to see a movie that I would not otherwise have given a second thought to just because she had mentioned it and I wanted something to bond with over at work on Monday. It is a form of madness, I’m convinced of it. Since then, I’ve gotten much better at detecting the early signs of limerence and have learned to take evasive action – like looking for imperfections in the potential LO early on and, having been smitten, being mindful about not spending too much time with them, particularly alone. This of course has nothing whatsoever to do with anything the LO does. But it’s away of ensuring the castles being built in one’s own mind don’t get too elaborate.
I have a few comments on the questions:
(1) Why does limerence exist/Limerence as peacock’s tail.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding the analogy, but it seems to me that being really devoted to a potential partner is only an effective reproductive strategy if LO is impressed with said devotion. If LO isn’t impressed with said devotion, limerence is actually a lousy reproductive strategy i.e. lots of wasted time and misdirected efforts. 🙂
(2) Do LGBT+ persons experience limerence differently?
Well, I can’t speak for the “L’s” and the “B’s” and the “T’s” and all the other delightful little bunny wabbits in the club. But, as a gay male, I would say yes and no. 🤣🤣🙄😁
I think, on the one hand, gay male sexuality is less “comprehensive” than straight male sexuality (since our bodies are designed for reproduction, and there is something singularly satisfying about the combination of masculine and feminine energies in an intimate union). On the other hand, I’d argue that gay males (when the limerence is focused on a straight male LO) actually experience significantly more debilitating symptoms of limerence than straight male counterparts. The reason for more debilitating symptoms is greater obstacles.
It is a special kind of hell to desire (involuntarily) something that one can never possess. The desire, or obsession, or whatever one wants to call it, is going to destroy the gay male’s psyche from the inside out. The only cure is self-awareness – a self-awareness so thorough by necessity that it ends up driving total self-actualisation. The only silver lining is some gay males may find pleasure in their own hormonal activity i.e. a bit of dopamine can be nice, but not too much.
Recently, I have discovered that I have different physiological responses to straight male LOs and gay male LOs. For example, around my straight male LO, I felt crazy drug-like euphoria and a racing heart. His mere physical presence definitely overloaded my nervous system. Last week, a gay male romantic interest (potential LO?) re-entered my life after a 3-4-year absence. The reunion was actually very beautiful. He remembered me, and I felt great happiness, but I would say this happiness stopped short of euphoria. I also felt butterflies, but no racing heart. He made eye contact and smiled at me. He waited for me to respond. I made eye contact and smiled back. He glowed with pleasure, etc, etc.
I wonder if I experienced “destructive limerence” for my straight male LO from high school, and if I’m experiencing “healthy infatuation” for my gay male romantic interest?
Also, there’s some difference in the perceptions my brain has of straight men vs gay males, which could have to do with my own deepening emotional maturity. With my straight male LO, I felt like I was dealing with a supernatural entity. He was a tough nut to crack. With my gay male LO, I feel like I’m dealing with a supernatural entity AND a human being. My gay male LO and I actually connect on a human level, in addition to symptoms of nervous symptom hyperarousal e.g. butterflies. My straight male LO and I never really connected on a human level in my humble opinion. He was always “so tantalisingly close and yet just out of reach”, as one might expect of someone with an incompatible sexual orientation.
I am in agreement with some female readers of LwL that maybe the word “limerence” should be reserved for episodes of “destructive limerence”. However, if limerence is a scientific term with a fixed meaning rooted in human biology, we can’t change the meaning unless such change is fully supported by scientific evidence. Possibly, for some persons experiencing limerence, completely external factors such as the availability/unavailability of a given LO determine the course limerence takes. 🤔
(3) Limerence and monogamy.
I actually think limerence (when it’s mutual and experienced in early adulthood) is MORE likely to inspire people to embrace the ideal of social monogamy. E.g. “I’ve found ‘the one’ and I don’t want anyone else. Everyone must feel the way I do (i.e. blissed out). Monogamy obviously makes sense as a unit of social organisation. Everyone is as madly in love with their spouse as I am with my spouse currently.”
It’s only when one encounters subsequent LOs/LEs during the lifespan that one might be tempted to rethink one’s philosophical stance on the ideal of social monogamy. Most first-time enthusiastic experiencers of limerence don’t anticipate the fact they may go on to have repeated bouts of profound infatuation.
(4) Reluctant LOs. Tell the limerent matter-of-factly you’re not interested in anything romantic. Immediately end the friendship if at all possible. Give the limerent a chance to develop soppy feelings for someone else. You gotta be “cruel to be kind”. Lovesick people (in my own personal experience) are rarely fun to be around. (Hence, my frequent avoidance of LwL. No offence, peoples!) 🙂
The limerent will struggle to recover fully if LO remains in the picture. Also, as Lucy Bain notes, limerence always hurts. Limerence isn’t just some cute crush. Limerence is a big deal – the limerent’s entire nervous system wants to pair-bond with LO. Decades of on-again-off-again depression/suicidal thoughts can ensue if the desired outcome is not secured. It’s vile to toy with people’s emotions…
Finally, congrats to Dr. L for how well his YouTube videos are doing lately. I note with interest the “Why Them?” video now has 98k views (likely to be the first to crack 100k views) and the next-highest-ranking video “What’s Makes Some People So Addictive?” has 88k views. Either the algorithm on YouTube is strangely skewed, or viewers are very clear about the type of content they’re seeking out, and the particular questions they want answered. It seems to me that everyone wants credible explanations of obsession. Obsession fascinates people. 😉
“I’d argue that gay males (when the limerence is focused on a straight male LO) actually experience significantly more debilitating symptoms of limerence than straight male counterparts. The reason for more debilitating symptoms is greater obstacles.”
“It is a special kind of hell to desire (involuntarily) something that one can never possess.”
@Sammy,
As a straight male, I feel like in my situation, LO got so ingrained in my head because looks-wise, she was the embodiment of perfection. So in turn was then perceived from the get-go by my psyche, to be so far out of my league, that instinctively I knew it wouldn’t or couldn’t ever be possible. Yet as to be expected by a Sensor LO, she turned all that doubt upside down when she smiled at me and eye contact intensity increased. All they really were, were lousy breadcrumbs, but I subsisted on those breadcrumbs like they were a gourmet meal.. To me this was the equivalent of limerence insanity..
“The limerent will struggle to recover fully if LO remains in the picture. Also, as Lucy Bain notes, limerence always hurts. Limerence isn’t just some cute crush. Limerence is a big deal – the limerent’s entire nervous system wants to pair-bond with LO. Decades of on-again-off-again depression/suicidal thoughts can ensue if the desired outcome is not secured. It’s vile to toy with people’s emotions…”
Limerence does infact always hurt. It is far beyond just a crush. I did actually think about suicide. I don’t even consider myself in an all out LE anymore, but still wish I could see LO. Maybe try talking to her if I could get the crust to do so or just say hi. Reading this post reminds of all the reasons why I shouldn’t though. Because that 👆🏻 is exactly how it felt at peak and not ever attaining her just disappoints me I couldn’t. It still hurts.. For whatever inadequacy I couldn’t come to terms with. It just didn’t happen. The sadness over it not happening never seems to dissipate. I’ll still cry a river if all the elements of disappointment over her are right. This must be part of the fallout.
@MJ.
Hugs to you, my brother. Thank you for writing such a lovely post. 🙂
Sometimes, in the midst of our suffering, we forget that other people suffer too. (Just as my straight male LO suffered when his wife left him). 🤔
Thank you for your kind words Sammy and thanks for always writing in style that breaks limerence symptoms down to a tee. I appreciate you.
🤗🤗
Sammy,
Wish you a very smooth sailing in your new romance! If you wish, let us know your good news.
Wish the situation relating to your dad’s health is not adding more stress in your life…
To me monogamy has always been about joint pursuits for mutual gain and the sharing in ownership of resources, tasks, duties, wealth, etc. Monogamy is really primarily focused on managing the risk of everyday life and the world better. The question of love and attraction doesn’t really track. In that situation adultery is clearly the antithesis of monogamy, since it introduces hidden risks and outright sabotage to the arrangement and brings consequences onto a partner who believed things were one way when they weren’t. To me it’s a contract breach and the real issue isn’t that you slept with someone else. It’s that everything else that came with it and the consequences dumped on the betrayed partner.
The fact that another human being is attracted to someone else is insanely unremarkable and not at all a big deal. It’s the acting on it and choosing to violate the betrayed partner in the process and without their consent that makes it a character problem and not a relationship problem. I don’t like that a few vocal cheaters get to act as if monogamy is a waste of time. It’s like asking thieves if they believe people have a right to ownership and enforcement of those rights when they’re violated. Of course they would say no.
Some thoughts regarding monogamy:
Like Dr. David Perl, a medical doctor/psychotherapist who helps people with limerence, I agree that feelings aren’t inherently wrong. However, there is a little catch, and the catch is this. Not all feelings we have as human beings need to be acted on. A distinction must be made, as you say, between feelings and actions.
I think monogamy comes up as a vexing issue for people in limerence because the strength/intensity of limerent feelings is truly mind-boggling. It’s very hard for the human brain to wrap itself around something as primal and powerful as profound infatuation.
Dr. Perl also offers the interesting insight that not all feelings need to be disclosed. In other words, it’s perfectly okay for human beings to have all sorts of feelings of attraction. However, not all of these feelings need to be acted on and not all these feelings need to be disclosed (and certainly not to the LO).
Dr. Perl himself made the mistake of disclosing to his LO, because both he and his LO were interested in and/or involved in psychotherapy. His clinical training taught him to be transparent about his feelings. He thought maybe the attraction could be talked through. In actual fact, disclosure only made things worse.
““behavioural methadone””
For me, yes. My sober mind wanders easier to her and said memories of her much easier than when intoxicated. The only reason I have come up with, as Dr L pointed out, alcohol messes with my brain chemistry. I think that is why I get no “limerent reward” when I think about her intoxicated, as I do when I am sober and my mind is working properly. I can remember a memory of her and that is it all it is a memory. Something reminded me of that memory and I go “I remember that time” and move on. There is no need for reverie.
Possible question for future bookshop discussions:
Can love and limerence coexist? Or are love and limerence two mutually exclusive categories, as even the title of Tennov’s own book suggests?