Another visit to the virtual coffee house of wisdom and camaraderie – where level heads put the world to rights, and wonky heads chitchat about whatever they please and meander wherever their fancy takes them.
Such refuges are welcome when the world is going through turbulent times. So, I thought today we might talk about the US election.
Don’t panic. I’m not a masochist and I don’t want to add to the drama, given this is a site designed to inform and support people through their own personal turbulence with limerence.
But, I do think there is a sideways view of the current “political realignment” (as it’s being carefully described) that can help with the project of living more purposefully.
It’s all about resilience, and the ability to weather trials.
Demoralisation and despair
Since quitting my academic job and going full time on Living with Limerence, I have started to spend time on TwitterX in an attempt to spread the word about limerence to the wider world.
It’s been an education.
Right now, the two sociopolitical tribes in the US are split between triumphalism and devastation. It’s easy to gawp at the fringes on both sides, but even among fairly sensible commentators the reactions are… dramatic.
We appear to be transitioning into either a new Golden Age, or a new Dark Age.
It’s a cliche to say that elections are won in the centre, but it clearly must be true. In both the UK and US there are some areas of the country where support for the two main parties is pretty closely balanced, and that balance swings back or forth in the cultural winds.
Well, unequivocally this year, that swing has been for Trump.
The problem with this outcome is that many people sincerely believe that he intends to usher in a totalitarian regime of fascism, corruption and domination. The Handmaid’s tale made real.
Regardless of whether those fears are rational or irrational, these people are really suffering. Their worldview has been smashed. They feel unable to trust their neighbours, and some are even planning to estrange themselves from family members who voted for Trump.
I can relate. I went through a similar experience in 2016.
Brexit and Trump 1.0
I’ve been an academic for a quarter of a century, and academia is not a politically diverse environment.
In 2016, the UK voted to leave the European Union (”Brexit”), and Trump was elected for the first time. Within my framework for understanding the world, both those outcomes were inconceivable.
I knew precisely one person in my social network who had voted for Brexit, and I thought she’d only done it because her husband had propagandised her into false beliefs. In the university there was a palpable sense of grief and bewilderment after the vote (and a significant amount of anger). The world no longer made sense.
How could more than half our country vote to destroy a hard-won union that facilitated free trade, freedom of movement, and cultural exchange? And how could half of Americans vote for a vulgar, narcissistic blowhard who told ridiculous, self-serving lies?
Many of my friends and colleagues recalibrated their worldview by concluding that our country was populated by racists, idiots and rubes, who had been conned by the manipulative liars in “Vote Leave”.
That didn’t work for me.
When I encountered Brexit voters they seemed like ordinary people with sincere fears about the negative effects of immigration, undemocratic intergovernmental law-making, and a suspicion of elites who considered themselves above the people they supposedly served.
Brexit voters weren’t motivated by selfishness, stupidity, or hate as far as I could tell. Many of my academic colleagues, in contrast, seemed to really hate them.
Understanding other people
I just couldn’t accept that more than half of the country were racist idiots. That was even more destabilizing to my mental model of the world than an alternative explanation: I was in a cultural bubble.
In an attempt to remedy that flaw, I started to read more books from the right-wing side of the political spectrum. Embarrassingly, in retrospect, I didn’t even realise there was a right wing intellectual tradition. The right wing were anti-intellectual by definition – such was my immersion in the academic monoculture.
Some of the highlights of that project were reading Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, James Baldwin (rather counter-intuitively, as he certainly wasn’t right wing), Roger Scruton, and Heather MacDonald. I certainly didn’t agree with them all, but once I had developed the skill of cutting off my thought-terminating liberal indignation about some of the claims being made, I actually started to understand their point of view.
And they had a point.
The most consequential book for me was The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. I’ve blogged about this before. It elaborates on how people genuinely have different moral foundations, and so view the world in importantly different ways. I found it had enormous explanatory power, and really got me to the point of understanding how two people with the same basic facts and information could reach opposite moral conclusions.
Not unlike the two tribes of limerents and non-limerents, the failure to recognise that people are built differently leads to mismatched expectations and a conflict of visions.
Where was I?
I didn’t mean to start writing a memoir. I bring this all up to make the point that one of the best remedies for the despair and demoralisation I felt when my worldview convulsed, was to deliberately and dispassionately try to understand my “opponents” better.
In doing so, I ironically (but healthily) realised that we weren’t opponents at all – they were also trying to do their best to keep going in a challenging world, and improve the community they lived in.
An important stage in living with more purpose is to begin to notice when powerful emotional drives are disorganising your thoughts and affecting your behaviour. For me, limerence was the obvious example, of course, but the demoralisation and indignation I felt when the world stopped making sense were other cases.
It’s hard to make good decisions in a state of overarousal and stress. Believing that half of your neighbours are selfish assholes driven by dark motives takes an enormous psychic toll.
One of the adages that is common in right wing circles is:
The right thinks the left are mistaken, the left thinks the right are evil.
But the opposite can also be true – it doesn’t take long to find commentators who think that woke ideology is evil, and some prominent public figures on the left are “literal demons”.
The left and right have always been wary of each other, but in my lifetime the shift from “common cause but different methods” to “implacable enemies” has worsened significantly. I suspect that this is one of the causes of the societal demoralisation that seems to have been growing over the last decade or so (heightened, no doubt, by covid).
For an individual, reversing this demoralisation (remoralisation? respair?) is not unlike the shift in mindset needed to recover from limerence.
How you choose to respond to events that challenge your peace of mind determines the outcome. You can’t turn the emotions off, but you can sit with them till they settle, and then reflect on where those deep drives came from, what insights they hold about your unconscious beliefs, and how best to learn from them.
It is a purposeful decision to respond to demoralisation by actively seeking to understand the forces at work, to understand the people involved, and to understand your own emotional vulnerabilities. You may still decide at the end of this process that, yes, the demoralisation is justified because circumstances are terrible and you are going to fight against them! That is purposeful too. In fact, you are more likely to be an effective counter-force if you really understand the situation, rather than just being enraged by animal passions.
Pragmatically, it’s a lot easier to stay hopeful and make sound decisions when you assume your neighbours are mistaken, but can be reasoned with, than when you assume they are evil and a threat to your existence. The best way to reach that state is to make a sincere and non-judgmental attempt to put yourself in their heads.
Evil people exist, for sure, but I hope you agree with my conclusion that half the population of the free world don’t fit the category.
In conclusion
So, wrapping up this now rather lengthy coffeehouse starter here’s the tldr:
- Demoralisation and despair come from feeling the world has gone wrong
- Seeking understanding is a purposeful way to respond
- Once you comprehend other people’s motives the world makes more sense
- You regain peace of mind and become a more effective person
Hope that helps anyone currently feeling discomforted.
Now back to the virtual haven of calm…
Dr L, you are a brave man to do politics on here. There is much I could say! But for now I just want to say I agree with the view you expressed about trying to understand others’ perspectives. There is too little of it happening in the world and especially in the cultural bubbles / echo chambers you mention. The Righteous Mind by Haidt had a massive impact on me too, to help with living and thinking in that more open way and understanding why much of the world doesn’t. I’d recommend it to anyone on here. It should also be compulsory reading in schools, but I doubt it ever will be.
This is a great post and I can completely relate, especially re Brexit. I will confess I do still get angry about it now, especially at airports. Ironically LO would really like this post so I have to remember it would be a bad idea to forward it on ha (unless you put it under a different website. Wouldn’t want him reading all the other stuff like ‘how to know you’re an LO etc!)
I always try to consider the other side of the coin and try and understand why others approach situations differently. Personality models and values are for sure a contributing factor and they’re good to understand that people genuinely think differently. Maybe my issue is I don’t routinely (want to?) assume the worst in people which can leave me vulnerable especially when dealing with people who are genuinely crap.
A wall of text marking my progress 5 months NC:
{to recap: have fallen limerent for the office flirt/ Tinderella, who I’ve dubbed MPDG.
Currently 5 months NC.
She’s now working in the next building.
In a few months time, when her contract there ends, she’ll either disappear altogether, employed by some other company or in a department far far away,
or she’ll work nearby or as a temp (in which case our paths may well cross eventually),
or, least likely, she’ll gain employment with our division, in which case she’ll be right in my face..}
This past month has been far more.. breezy, compared to the 4 month mark.
I don’t miss her. I do still think about her, but whenever I do fall into rumination, it’s accompanied by the recognition that we are extremely incompatible.
Also, to my best knowledge, MPDG hasn’t attempted to break NC (which she almost did a couple times earlier, probably to scope out job prospects, rather than to get in touch with anyone in particular).
I’ve been working on myself in terms of physical and emotional well-being.
Also getting to meet new people.
It hasn’t hurt that occasionally I get flirted with, in non-serious, playful ways – I am married, after all (in contrast, when MPDG flirted with me, it was in a rather surreptitious, intense fashion – which perplexed me, as she knows that I’m taken).
Funny thing is, I recognise MPDG’s behaviour and demeanour from somewhere before – it’s very reminiscent of a certain guy from my school days, a highly sexually confident ‘player’. And a narcissist.
So I’m guessing that MPDG could be a female equivalent of a ‘player’.
She’s certainly highly sexually confident and unconcerned about outcomes.
This divergence of morals is I think what threw me into limerence. A quick tour of reddit confirms that there’s many people who view the onus of infidelity as one-sided.
MPDG was free to flirt with me, and push the boundaries, despite my marital status, as she has little to lose.
Kind of like a game of sexual chicken, and she was relying on me to apply the brakes.
The sexual tension was heightened due to my attraction to her, constrained by the limits on how I could interact.
I think now that I appreciate that she’s just an ordinary, self centred young woman looking for low hanging validation points, it’ll be easier to rebuff her. I won’t have lost anything of value.
I don’t know how I’d actually handle meeting MPDG face to face.
Part of me wants to see her again, as a kind of acid test.
Part of me still desperately wishes that I mean something to her, that her previous interactions with me were truly signs of genuine interest. It seemed she put in a lot of effort for a few scraps of validation.
But I’d been viewing her behaviour through the eyes of an introvert. I know now that I was just one of several, and to her, it was just playing, hardly any effort from an extrovert perspective at all.
Should we meet again, if we just said ‘hi’ and ‘bye’, then I’d know that’s the end of it. It would seal the fact that MPDG is merely a party girl flexing her flirting muscles on a tame target (ie a married man).
This is the expected outcome, and one that will propel me away from her.
But if MPDG wants to pick up where we left off, exchanging a little banter, and possibly contact details, I can’t imagine not responding in kind. It would likely throw me into limerence again.
‘Best case’ scenario (from a wishful thinking perspective) would be if some kind of platonic relationship develops.
But I would still be far more emotionally invested than she’ll ever be, not a healthy or balanced arrangement.
The most optimal circumstance for a balanced relationship would be when my feelings for her have completely dissipated, so not for some time, I imagine, by which any connection would be lost.
I’ve been doing risky things, like passing her workplace whenever the opportunity arises.
But I think it’s better if I can ride out a few more months of NC, and even better if I never see her again
*(whilst silently thanking her for prompting me out of a rut, and wishing her well, wherever she may be~)
It was hard to focus on hobbies and other distractions, initially.
What’s been helpful has been sticking to routines. Maintaining discipline, even/ especially when I didn’t want to.
Also trying new things.
I managed to injure myself in the process (not quite as badly as Adam!), and recovery from that has been a diversion.
Meeting new people is definitely helpful, even though none are anything more than acquaintances.
And of course, trying to do new things with my oblivious SO, who has been a bit resistive to change.
Being flirted with can certainly be a buzz (as an introvert, flirting doesn’t come naturally to me). I don’t think it’s ideal though, getting a dopamine hit from external validation.
This is something new to me, I used to be inured to that sort of thing prior to limerence. But probably because I was rarely interested in anyone who hit on me, until MPDG came along..
I don’t feel at risk of transferring my limerence, I don’t think I’m as prone to it as some others here.
MPDG is my only LO, and in the depths of my LE, I couldn’t imagine ever developing limerence for anyone else.
But now I wonder.. if the dopamine hit was high enough, and repeated yet sporadic .. a ‘perfect storm’ of emotion – perhaps I may not be so invulnerable to it after all?
This exact topic has been on my mind since the election. Here in Australia we aren’t directly affected by the election, although I imagine we’ll be indirectly affected. A good friend of mine supported Trump and was openly happy about the win. I don’t feel aligned with either party, but my view is that the left provides a kind of social insurance. I know my friend is a good person. She wrote to me saying she was happy Trump had won. I wrote back to her saying I was devastated he’d won, but I wanted to understand her perspective. First off I told her that I wanted her to feel safe to disagree with me. I was open to changing my mind, but the argument had to stand up to scrutiny. On the topic of ‘truth’ I love Julia Galef’s Ted talk on scout and soldier mentality. Definitely worth the watch if you want to discuss the election with the opposing team!
This past week my friend and I have been sending messages and reels and articles back and forth. I think we’ve both changed our minds on a few issues. The conversation has been super respectful and about getting to the truth. It can be extremely difficult to do that when there’s a lot of misinformation out there (from both sides!) But a lot of the claims can be verified through official documents or proceedings. My biggest frustration is the entire election process is just smoke and mirrors on both sides. I just wanted to know what their policies were without all the mudslinging.
Cordelia,
I’m on the wrong side of the Atlantic to comment from a US perspective, so will tread lightly. What I want to say is I feel I’ve witnessed the near collapse of civilised conversations to understand others’ points of view, across the last 20-25 years. It used to be routine to try and do that.
The discourses from both sides of the spectrum have now become so emotionally and morally charged. The further one side goes, the further the other goes in response. It is like there is no common understanding anymore (‘Brexit’ was a huge example and I was as culpable as the next person at that time). I reckon social media echo chambers are a big factor. Haidt also argues we instil more fear in children these days, and that this fear extrapolates out of things like ‘stranger danger’ into ‘fear of hearing a view I don’t like’.
I have only about three people where I feel I can have genuinely open and conversations about political views (and not that this should matter, but I’m not a right winger or “Trumpian” at all, quite ‘vanilla’ views by old standards, but I still feel this way). That’s not a reflection on me, it’s a reflection on the world. Too few of these open, honest and respectful conversations happen, period.
DrL is right to suggest we use this space to discuss our feelings on it constructively. It is good to hear about how you handled it with your friend.
More people seem to be becoming aware of the magnitude of this problem and the need to do something about it. Maybe this is a (ahem) ‘glimmer’ of hope now. The future would be bleak if we humans don’t address it.
L-a-R
My high school and undergrad days were filled with political arguments. I 100% had a soldier mindset. I had to be right.
I think the big thing I’ve always had in my favor is my curiosity. As Galef says in her Ted talk, being curious will help you see the truth, and that’s why over the years, I’ve become far more open minded.
I think it can also help with limerence if you can get the truth out of your LO. It’s why, to this day, I’m still annoyed that LO left me hanging. I actually don’t care if he had feelings for me or not. I want to know the truth behind his actions. I also think a lot of us gaslight ourselves. I truly convinced myself that I didn’t have feelings for him. Intellectually I didn’t. But unfortunately my brain doesn’t get to decide everything 😏
I suppose, even if both parties only told the truth, we still wouldn’t see eye to eye on how best to solve problems and set political agendas. But I’d have far more respect for the people wanting to be in power if they were transparent. I take far more issue with the lies than I do with someone having a different perspective on how to solve a national problem. Especially when those lies are told with the intent to fuel rage and create an ‘other’ mentality. It’s quite deliberately divide and conquer.
I think the new national flex would be refusing to divide. We may not agree with each other, but we still respect each other.
Cordelia,
To flip it back to limerence, i’m interested in something you said and would value an opinion:
“I think it can also help with limerence if you can get the truth out of your LO […] I want to know the truth behind his actions.”
Quick recap, male, limerent ~2 years for decade long female friend. NC not an option or desire. I have SO and despite limerence, not in a position where I’d entertain risking that for a long shot at relationship with LO. Despite that, I think very positively of LO and so have kept my feelings to myself and just continued to be a friend to her. Reasonable chance there is some mutuality to the feelings, but that is unknown.
Based on your own points I quoted, would you say that one day, when I am more out of the other side and there is less danger attached, that the kind thing for me to do would to admit these feelings exist(ed) and tell her what good qualities about her inspired them? Or – would doing that carry more risk of making it seem like the friendship I gave her through the limerence was somehow less authentic and otherwise-motivated? It isn’t true (friendship was there first) but I can see how it could look that way.
The alternative is that she’s in the dark forever about what I felt and may wonder about it like you are. Maybe that’s kinder though. The roles of limerent and LO are reversed here compared to in your example, but the principle is similar.
And don’t worry, I am not about to make any rash decisions or changes based on answers! It is a ‘not for now’ possibility and I’m just interested in your opinion based on what you said.
Hi L-a-R
I should probably sleep on it and respond in the morning, but your question is actually more aligned with the situation that brought me to LWL (not the situation with my LO) so it’s something I’m keen to respond to.
I’m assuming you have SO and she doesn’t?
I had this with my previous coach. He was married. I am/was single. We got along really well. But he was just way too happy to see me. But he never crossed a line that meant I could address his behavior. It was always just odd and never felt on the level. If he had been single, I might have entertained the idea of him. But he was not. And I was sure he didn’t want to leave his wife. I was being used for validation. Which sucked because he went home to his wife. I went home to nobody!
To address the ‘should I tell her?’ Question. That I don’t know. For someone like me, I’d say absolutely tell her the truth. Because if it was inappropriate for me to continue to be friendly with you, I’d keep my distance. Knowing how you feel would give me the power to make an informed decision. If I don’t know, I then have to try and test things out because I feel weird sensing how the other person feels but they’ve admitted nothing so I just have to guess. And then what? If I distance myself maybe I’m overreacting. It puts the LO in a really shitty position ( if like me they don’t want to mess with your feelings!)
Some LOs thrive on it. But then by telling her, in a way you set a boundary. If she manipulates the situation, you know she’s not a great LO. If she backs off, she’s respectful. The problem is that I don’t think you want her to back off. But if knowing the truth gave her the power to make the decision that’s best for her (and you), I personally would admire that.
I keep wanting to drum into the men who’ve declared their love for me, “you don’t know me!!” You’ve created a fantasy in your head and it will burst soon enough. That’s my honest perspective as someone who uses the truth to do the right thing. Do you think LO would do the right thing? I suspect you don’t want to tell her because you’d lose your drug source if she acted with integrity and kept her distance. Would that be right?
Cordelia,
Thanks – some very helpful thinkers there and appreciate your perspective. Sleep! Will reply properly tomorrow – you are right about a lot but there is a bit more to say. I will stick it on another thread like the recent ‘Entanglements’ one, (apt anyway!) – I know this is Coffeehouse but dont want to hijack this thread further from the politics.
Cordelia,
“I was being used for validation. Which sucked because he went home to his wife. I went home to nobody!“
I well remembered your line for the first time, and wrapped it a little bit and threw it at LaR on the Election Day here…
LaR,
Cordelia’s view is very poignantly insightful to me, we are on the same boat in our cases, respectively, as limerent and as LO at different times. I’m not as strong or clear-headed as her, though. (But after one case, I never chose male therapist again).
@snow
Aww thanks, Snow 🥰
As usual, I can appear strong and clearheaded because you don’t really know me 😂 But I do try to make decisions based on rationality rather than emotional outburst! I know that I definitely see things from a different perspective to most, so I’ve had to become good at understanding other points of view and articulating my own.
Cordelia,
I appreciate those who think differently so you’re in safe territory here.
You’re surely right that – even if I might try to reason it out otherwise to myself – one reason I don’t tell her is so as not to lose my dopamine supply. That’s despite a small part of me telling me I should just be honest.
You are right about both our relationship statuses. The way you described your coach as just a bit too pleased to see you but not stepping over lines, is how I will come across to my LO too (just a bit too warm and interested). But sometimes she displays that back too. I am certain she is a good person and will share your wish not to mess with my head or interfere negatively in my SO’s life.
Other than once, when I did test a line (not a really immoral one, but a slight move of goalposts) and got a polite but clear pushback, there is no other time in the history of our friendship where she has given any hint of a back-off signal (even my limerent brain that looks for problems hasn’t detected one). The opposite is more common – extreme warmth in my direction from a not notoriously-warm person. This hints (although doesn’t confirm – I do know this Snow, not to assume!) that she is relatively happy with how things are, whatever she suspects that I feel.
What interests me about your former situation is why, if you felt uncomfortable in it,
you didn’t ask him why he was acting weird or if he had feelings (apologies if I have misunderstood or assumed, and actually you did). I sometimes feel if LO was uncomfortable with how I am, she’d confront me on it. But it never happens, never even close. Perhaps she’d rather not let the genie out of the bottle either.
As to me disclosing, my question to you was more one about the future. It is just too dangerous when I am attached and have little play available for LC. This place is full of stories of the downsides where disclosure made both people’s lives much harder. I do see your point totally though about how knowledge would have allowed you an informed choice. I am like 90%+ she would take it well, be adult, act responsibly and we’d find a way through with some of our long pre-LE friendship intact – so in that way, the dopamine supply (which Snow has repeatedly pointed out to me might also be true for her) wouldn’t have to be cut totally. But lurking in the other 10% are some seriously shark infested waters (since I’m talking to an Aussie). She could go off script and land me with any number of problems.
Knowing the facts of the situation I think it is best to leave it alone for now but maintain a belief that one day in the future, and for purely non-selfish reasons, I may tell her.
These things are complicated aren’t they? Cheers for listening and not judging. Will give it more thought but no knee-jerk reactions for sure.
Cordelia,
I could/can see rationality sides of matter and mostly acted accordingly. However, due to my past traumas, my emotions often quietly hurting myself inside (outsiders couldn’t see) when my mood is melancholy or physically under weather. My emotions did not outburst easily, either, since I have my imagination layout.
When another strong, insightful voice, like yours, ring its crystal-clear bell, I feel strengthened to resist some emotional pulls that would elongate my LE pains or wind down my spirit…. Thank for sharing your points of views! 🙏
I also shared your attitude and behavior on friendship with men….
Hugs 🥰
You’re alright by me Ms. Cordelia. Your advice has always been sound and appreciated. Especially by yours truly..
This conversation has been interesting and it’s nice to see you make your appearance here again. Although my guess is it will be short lived and you’ll go back into lurker mode.
Glad that it looks like you are making progress. I’m sure LaR can learn a thing or two from you as I’m reading your post again and now identifying how to apply those thoughts in relation to Lady Friend.
She made another big reveal to me this week about a family situation and this coming after our little get together last weekend. (I even got to meet her Sister!!
Wtf is that about?? I was so excited).
I plan to respond to one of LaRs posts shortly and I’ll try to update a little more there..
@ Call me Cordelia
“I think it can also help with limerence if you can get the truth out of your LO.”
I’m with you on this 100%. I believe I would not have had one disastrous LE after the next if I had been able to get the perspective of just one past LO. The most galling aspect of a limerent rejection is that there is never any feedback – not even so much as a “fuck you!” It is often said that you learn by experience, but if your experience results in an intractably bewildering riddle, you don’t learn much of anything!
However, something I have never mentioned before, even here, was that one early morning I texted my last LO about 5 months after the last time I saw her with “Hi. How’s it going?” To my amazement, she texted back immediately (She hadn’t blocked my number!) with “IF YOU WERE NOT ALREADY RUDE ENOUGH!!! HAVE SOME DECENCY IN YOURSELF!!!” I responded with a thumbs up, and that was the end of it.
In that one honest interjection, I learned that I had really pissed her off. This is how I know that disclosing to your LO is an absolute no-no. I believe it was because of this one short burst of truth by an LO that I have been able to manage an active LE, despite having had daily contact with my current LO for well over a year now without saying or doing anything stupid. I have eliminated a lot anxiety by realizing that I will never have to pick the “right time” to disclose my feelings, because it is simply unthinkable to do so; it is as unthinkable as going out and robbing a bank and killing people – it is just something you don’t do!
MJ,
Yes much I can learn too from Cordelia.
And I’m super intrigued what’s occurring with you and LF now …
“HAVE SOME DECENCY IN YOURSELF!!!”
James A
I remember some days after LO left the job I was talking to other co-workers about her and my boss says something along the lines of “I’m surprised you didn’t beg her to stay”. To which I replied “I didn’t want to make her feel guilty for leaving.” To which someone asked “what about your dignity?” I answered “I didn’t care about that”.
I wonder if LO had snapped at me with that kind of reply instead of being kind and gracious with the attention I gave her I would have come back around to reality. But she didn’t. And I don’t know. And as Dr L famously says “If you had that knowledge what would you do with it?”
Cordelia, exactly, but one can only call someone out and have them accept being called out if you also respect a core of their concerns. If you don’t respect their views, they don’t care if you think they believe lies.
I remember having a conversation in a pub with a far right guy in the EDL once, a huge muscly guy with a lot of convictions for violence. I actually called out him out on a lot of his opinions in cordial manner. I woudln’t say I somehow converted him, but we could at least agree that his core concern was more narrow than his initial broad statements, but that we fundamentally disagreed about his core view. Shouting across the divide forces people in the middle to take sides.
I disagree on limerence. For me it is intrinsic that one person is more invested, and the platonic relationship is fundamentally shaped by this. If you can’t ‘end’ limerence without ‘knowing’, you haven’t accepted that it doesn’t matter why they behaved liek they did. If you knew that they did e.g. like you plutonically, but the relationship didn’t work out regardless, you can still be devastated long term and struggle with that loss. You aren’t in a relationship with them, and even if you could have been, that moment is gone (sorry, speaking generally here). The limerent and the LO probably often don’t fully understand their own behaviour until it is too late, so even if they explained, it is likely a rationalization and wouldn’t be the ‘full’ truth. Internal acceptance is the only route IMO, as hard as it is.
I am generally not a fan of the full on associate negative memories with LE approach, but the key advantage IMO is disliking someone does allow you to not value their opinion, whether in politics or love!
LaR,
You think you were safe on the other side of the pond, far away from the US nerve-raking Election? A fat chance… ! 😆. Guess how Snow’s 🔥 post of 2/5 landed on your T head across the Atlantic?
I was working (as a registered translator) on a poll site for 17 hours and sat next to this warm hearted, smoking, whinny “Trumpian” Spanish interpreter (a retired school security guard) who went on why she voted for Trump and how she was at odds with all her family members. I tried very hard not to argue with her but calmly listened to what she had to say. Still, I calmly said a couple of things about Trump’s Narc personality and his misogynic attitude towards women, everyone, she responded, “Really?’
We knew each other in several previous assignments in the same poll site (though, my first for the Presidential one), so she felt comfortable going on and on. Then, I began to write and edit that post to you, while feeling the irritation and anger rising and became unstoppable towards the end of the exhausting day (we still walked together as usual towards our homes, nearby on the same street)… But, I took some of my anger out on your “secret”, ungrateful attitude towards MFF (not YOU as a person), sorry.
There you have the fact! You “ignorantly” got fed a dose of the US election on the Election Day, indirectly and directly… and got A- for a Stoic exam/training session (also a part of my intention). 😋
Lol Snow, it is what it is, and if my 👻 took a bit of heat for that, well, I guess I’m glad to be of service!! You have spent enough time and patience on my ‘case’ for me to trust your heart is in the right place.
That’s very unfortunate what happened to you on the polling shift, and exactly typical of what DrL is getting at, I believe.
@LaR
I’ll try and address each point but I’m on my phone so might get a bit lost.
You ask ‘why didn’t I ask’. Because he had plausible deniability. I was still trying to lose the weight I had gained from motherhood and being in an awful relationship, so wasn’t very comfortable in my own skin. I’ve found that two things have stopped this happening to me – moving to a small town (where people lack the anonymity and distance required to get away with emotional infidelity. I’m sure it still happens but it’d be much harder to get away with) and getting back to feeling confident in my own skin. I think men sensed that insecurity and it provided them with something they could attack me with if I confronted them. They were always very physically appealing. But I think they knew that their good looks weren’t important to me. It’s like their insecurities were ignited by my lack of interest based on appearances, but they liked to think they could have me if they wanted me. Like, how could you not want me when I’m hotter than you? My brain needs stimulation and physical hotness doesn’t satisfy that requirement. Now I’ve worked my ass off at the gym, there’s nothing they can gaslight me with. No insecurity to use against me. So they don’t even try.
So getting back to my coach. I knew that if I asked, he’d say ‘it’s all in your head’. The reason he got some kind of validation from me is because we did get along really well. But he started complaining to me about his wife (which I shut down quickly) and his comments to me got a little bolder. At that point I started googling and found this site. After getting advice here, I decided (for his sake and mine) I needed to find a new coach. Even if no lines were crossed, I knew he could be feeling exactly as you are feeling right now and I was also starting to think about it in my head. I’m as human as everyone else. I’m fine with being single. Happy about it even. Still doesn’t make it a good idea to play with fire.
I also didn’t confront my coach because I loved that gym and he and I did get along really well. But once I found out what limerence was and I suspected I was an LO, I decided the safest option was to blow it up. So I did confront him. He literally gave me the ‘why would I be interested in you?’ response. I cried for a week because I’d made so much progress at that gym and had just started to feel a part of the community.
It was a bit different with LO. We met in 2002. It was a real love/hate relationship. Never romantic but lots of push-pull. I knew I wanted him in my life but my brain knew it was a bad idea to have a romantic relationship with him. He actually made quite a lot of suggestive comments. Even got very nervous telling me I was beautiful one time (which I responded to badly 😔). I was too overwhelmed. The love I felt for him was not earned or deserved. It was love at first sight. It made me way too vulnerable with someone I did not trust. Once we finally managed to muddle our way into a friendship, we made it work. We live on different continents (we met when both living in a third country) and visited each other. Our friendship was mostly online. He constantly made suggestive comments and I constantly deflected. I couldn’t bear to confront him because I was worried I’d lose a friendship that had become so valuable to me (even if entirely online). When I finally did, he denied everything. I had to wonder if it was because I ended up meeting my ex (and eventually having a child) right at a point where we had been talking about meeting up again.
I didn’t realise any of this until years later when I was trying to figure out what caused night terrors. Turns out it was him who caused them… honestly it’s a very long story. Can’t write it all out again. It was a saga. Ultimately I loved him more than anyone I’d loved other than my child (and dog) but didn’t completely trust him because of all the suggestive comments he’d made while continually denying having feelings for me. So the only way to deal was to bury how I felt and keep a dishonest friendship for 20 years!!
I love the Mark Groves quote. I won’t get it completely right. Something like ‘if a truth burns down a relationship, let it burn’.
I was devastated when I ended the friendship with him but it was definitely necessary for my own growth and confidence. I lost a friendship that was not serving me and gained myself.
Cordelia,
For now (as it is all I have time to write), my sincere thanks for this honest reply and for putting the story out like that.
All understood / empathised with, and I’ll write a full reply very soon.
MJ,
Yes much I can learn too from Cordelia.
And yes, I’m super intrigued what’s occurring with you and LF now …
Cordelia,
What I really want to say is that it was pretty bad form of these two men to treat you as they did – to do the suggestive / near boundary parts, but then hide behind the plausible deniability/imply ‘why would I want to be with you?’ (Coach guy) or not admit feelings for such a long time (friend/LO). They – definitely the first one – were using you and gaslighting you, and that can’t be nice. I know this sort of behaviour is quite common.
Even though I think it is overall best not to disclose to my LO (and as you can imagine I have given it a heck of a lot of thought), I have vowed not to hide behind plausible deniability if she did ever ask / confront me about it it. I will tell her the truth in that event and let it go where it does from there. I care very much about her as a friend and would not gaslight her if directly asked.
From your reply I get a different perspective on why LOs wouldn’t confront the limerent. Thank you. And I am really glad to hear you are in a better place of self esteem now. Your defences against men like those will be stronger. Better men do exist – but I guess it is finding and identifying them?!
“ ‘if a truth burns down a relationship, let it burn’.“
Without knowing the author or quote, I did let out the truth of my double layered LE at last, when it was already totally unnecessary — an permanent NC is taking place and the other side did not care how I ever thought or felt, and was basically ignoring my existence.
But it’s utterly important for me to acknowledge my side of truth, release it, thank the healing merit of this LE, leave no misunderstanding/wondering, and burn the bridge behind me….
A chapter of life needs an ending, better a clean one, for a new/fresh chapter to begin….
L-a-R
Thanks for the kind words. I don’t really blame either of them. I think my coach knew what he was doing was unprofessional, but as I know all too well, sometimes you just can’t control who you have feelings for so you say and do really dumb things. He denied it because I put him on the spot. That’s some pretty human behavior right there. Not good behavior. But human nonetheless.
And as for LO. I’m 95% certain I was an LO for him too. My behavior was also not good because I wasn’t honest with him. He was pissed when I confessed I’d had feelings for him and hadn’t told him. I was surprised at how angry he was. But my psychologist and I thought maybe it was because he felt gaslit by me. Or maybe because he had also had feelings (and he did try to tell me but I brushed it off which I only later realised when I found old emails and messenger conversations). I just couldn’t let things get romantic because (as I realised almost 20 years later) that lack of trust caused some extremely distressing night terrors. The odd thing is I trusted him in every other way. Just not with my heart. I was not ready to be that vulnerable with anyone. So I picked a narcissist who destroyed me from the inside out, but at least he never really had my heart.
I feel LO might have denied everything because he thought he had to in order to maintain our friendship. He was surprised and sad that I told him I couldn’t remain friends with him if he was going to deny having feelings after saying so many suggestive things to me (which I had proof of because they were in writing!) He then quickly backtracked but I was so angry I just yelled at him and that’s the last time we spoke. I wrote a few times after that saying if he ever felt he could be honest, I’d love to hear it, but never heard back. That was nearly four years ago.
It took me a couple of years to really process it all. I still would love to hear the truth, but I’m OK with never knowing. I just know that I will never allow it to happen again. I had the tiniest glimmer the other week. Someone rescued my child. Obviously a vulnerable moment for me. I know the man who rescued her. He’s married. I can safely say it didn’t go any further in my head than that split second. I suppose I’m lucky it wasn’t like the love struck feeling I had with my one and only LO because that wasn’t something I overcame easily. But I do think that my LE occurred because of where I was at and I’m just going to be less susceptible now I feel more comfortable and content in my own skin with my own company.
@MJ
You’re right. I won’t be around for long 😅 I have some crazy deadlines coming up and moving house! So spill!! I already finished binge-watching the Diplomat (the ending made me literally gasp!) and not much else interests me, so I need another installment of reality ummm blog comments…?
„If she manipulates the situation, you know she’s not a great LO. If she backs off, she’s respectful. The problem is that I don’t think you want her to back off. But if knowing the truth gave her the power to make the decision that’s best for her (and you), I personally would admire that.“
I would admire that too, but I think limerent reality is unfortunately a bit less clean-cut than this. There are so many murky desires and dark urges, on both sides (if she‘s limerent).
Her deciding what’s best for all and backing off, or her behaving improperly and him deciding that she’s not a great LO and therefore backing off himself, these are very noble outcomes, but there are so many more possibilities how everything could slide into chaos, secrets, hurts, whatever.
I think disclosing is only advisable if you think you can live with every possible outcome (her telling your SO counted in, for example.)
But I do understand the thought that it would be much more fair and clean to tell the truth. If only people could handle the truth in a good way.
Cordelia/Lar,
My Lady Friend saga continues to evolve in ways I never thought possible. We’re not even dating but it’s pretty obvious she has become comfortable with my presence, which I would like most to keep building upon and see what becomes of it. All while keeping those terrible limerent desires at bay. Which seems to still be going in my favor somehow..
To update, a few weeks ago, I found a wooden kids activity table, in great condition, that somebody was discarding and considered Lady Friends Sister because she just became a first time Mom back in July. Thinking it would be something she would maybe like to have for her Son when he got a little older.
I took some pics, sent them to Lady Friend and asked if she thought Sister would be interested. She was elated and told me it was a great idea. I measured it, partially dismantled it so it would fit inside my car and made plans to bring it out to work one night so she could deliver it to her Sister. When I asked what night it would be good to do this, she asked if it would be alright if I could just bring it over to her house on the weekend and we could go from there. Of course this about blew me out of the freakin water because it completely caught me so off guard. I had no idea that this was how she wanted to make this happen and all so suddenly. Like actually go to her actual house. Already!! Who knew?? I was beside myself.
About a week later, on the night we planned to meet, she gave me her address. About 15 minutes into the drive, as I was on my way out, she called to ask my location. Changing up plans all of a sudden and asking if I wouldn’t mind just taking it over to her Sister, who lives close-by to avoid having to move it twice later on. I agreed and she sent me directions to her Sister’s place and I met Lady Friend there.
Upon arriving, I was very nervous but her Sister was so nice and welcoming. I met her boyfriend and the Baby and was almost treated like family instantly. Like a surreal moment taking place. I actually pinched myself a few times just to make sure I wasn’t dreaming.
I brought the table in, assembled it back in full and watched Lady Friend at the same time in full Aunt mode, all happy and playing with the Baby. Catching her looking at me from time to time and admiring how I was being all crafty and Dad-like. I think she was enjoying the moment because she couldn’t stop smiling at me almost the whole time. Telling me I didn’t have to be acting so shy. But I told her it’s felt like forever since I’ve been in a family setting like that with anyone. Like over 10 years practically, but the evening turned out nice overall. I finished the project, told them good night and Lady Friend walked me out. I asked if she wanted to go get dinner. She turned me down. Have no clue why.
A few nights later, walking her out from work, she revealed about the severe alcohol and drug addiction her father suffered from for years when she was growing up. (I again was surprised by this reveal but apparently she becomes more trusting of me with each interaction we have.)((More so than I probably give it..)) I guess it was pretty traumatic growing up in her house. Said that he put her Mom and younger brothers through hell for the longest time. Which now explains some of her anxiety and sleep deprivation issues. She said this year he is 5 years sober so the family is celebrating this weekend. She hasn’t gone into too much detail otherwise but I thanked her for trusting me with her trauma and told her I’ll always be a great listening ear whenever she wants to talk about it and she thanked me.. Given that I have an addictive personality myself (not just for certain people), this opens the gateway for me to talk about my past and hopeful of her same understanding.
I guess the only issue left is the curiosity of why she won’t go out with me yet. Not even necessarily as a date but just as work-buds. If she wants it to be a date, I would totally be ok with that but I’m just stumped why I feel like I just jumped ahead 2 steps, met some of the family, without going on the date first. Not complaining about it, but it feels like something is off. Am I missing something? I feel like all the right ingredients are there for a perfect night out but she simply won’t meet or commit to it..
I wonder is she needing her Sisters validation for opinion or ok to date me? Do Sisters do this?? I would ask my Ex but I’m not trying to involve her if I don’t have to. If you could give your thoughts here, I’d greatly appreciate it..
Hi MJ,
I’m also an avid follower of your reality saga. In fact I was just thinking, when we at LwL are ‘shipping’ you and LF, are we holding you back from actually getting some? (Pardon the expression.) And we are shipping you! I thought, if he would just set his sights on someone 10 years older, he would have much better chances! I know, I know, ‘the heart wants what it wants’, but does it want what it wants because those are the images our culture/media feeds us: lithe, young women? (If I were a 50 yr old man, I would start bombarding my psyche with images of 40+ women to convince myself that was who I found attractive! 😁)
Anyway, you asked why she turned down dinner with you that night. I’ll tell you the same thing I told LaR. She likes you – a lot, but probably not like THAT. If she was smitten, she would have taken you up on your offer. That’s not to say she will never cave, but that’s how the situation is at the moment – as I see it from afar and with my limited knowledge…
In any case, I’m still crossing my fingers! You are playing the long game and playing it very well.
Thank you Trifles.
I did not know you were following along but thank you for the insight. I appreciate your support and will see who else will add their 2 cents here..
Dear MJ,
Your story with LF has us all gripped – I feel happy (on your behalf) to hear this update for a few reasons:
Your LF obviously trusts you to invite you round like that. Its not the same as being thought about as a romantic interest, but it is something nice.
Secondly, not only did she invite you round, she also shared very private information about her upbringing. Who knows what sorts of issues her background throws up in establishing trust in relationships, or trust in men. Maybe none. But the point is that she shared it. She also shared it *after* she has turned down the chance to go get dinner with you. Perhaps it is an explanation of sorts ‘Don’t rush me’ or something.
Re
“I guess the only issue left is the curiosity of why she won’t go out with me yet. Not even necessarily as a date but just as work-buds. If she wants it to be a date, I would totally be ok with that but I’m just stumped why I feel like I just jumped ahead 2 steps, met some of the family, without going on the date first.”
I think you didn’t necessarily jump ahead romantically with the visit home (to her sister’s), it was a jump in trust not necessarily romance. The sharing of personal info was too. The dinner refusal *might* be because she can see that you like her in THAT way, and doesn’t want to encourage it for now. I say ‘for now’ because that may or may not change in future. We have seen people here on LwL fall for people they’ve been friends or co-workers with, so its not impossible that things change in future. We have also seen people here on LwL being gripped for years by people who just want to keep things platonic with ambiguity reigning throughout, so its not a guarantee either. It could even be that she is interested but not going there for other reasons of avoidance, commitment issues, etc etc Or – she does not want to get into a romance with someone at work. I probably left out many other possibilities.
The main thing, as you know, is not to let your brain get fried by these recent events and to fall into limerence for LF. Your post shows that you are putting some thought into all of this, which seems to be well under control. Please don’t fantastise too much and turn this into a self-medicating situation. That will ruin things, as you well know!!! And this is all going so smoothly that it would be terrible to ruin it, even as a close and trusting platonic friendship because, goodness, knows we all need that type of thing to ease the work tedium and generally enrich our lives.
Thank you Bewitched. I appreciate you. You raise many possibilities with the situation and to my perplexed mindset, I’m still not losing any sleep or feeling anxious about her right now. Not saying it won’t ever happen though..
There are some days when I see her or even smell her and I feel like maybe glimmer moments want to surface. Sometimes I can’t even believe she wants to give me the time of day. Everything just feels so right about her. All the smiles from across the way, the little things she remembers about me, conversations that actually have depth. Sometimes for hours at a time. What drives me crazy is that she’s so incredibly available. Brags about the fact she has no boyfriend now to buy Christmas presents for this year and doesn’t ever wants kids either. Her not wanting kids completely ups her value with me, like 200%. She’s so seemingly right. Like I couldn’t have asked for a better person to get me out of that terrible limerent place.
I worry if more rejection will take me back to that sad place again. I still think of LO but LF keeps taking over more brainspace. Almost like she’s pushing all the LO stuff into a corner and taking over. In a way I really like that. Oh how I wish she would for real.
@MJ
Thanks for the LF update! I have to agree with Bewitched and Trifles on this one. I’m not getting romance vibes from this. That combined with the “dad vibes” comment she made, it would definitely seem more of a friendship situation from my perspective.
I get what Trifles said to you about age. We each have our own preference and I do know of a couple of relationships with a big age gap, but very few. Are you only attracted to women that age? Why do you think that is?
From my perspective, it’s more a problem of compatibility. As I asked you before, does she want children? Do you want more children? It would seem to me that this is a major issue and if you’re not on the same page, there’s really no romantic future regardless of how either of you feel 🤷♀️ This doesn’t even need to be a conversation about you having children with her. It’s just a ‘you seem to love your nephew, do you see that in your future?’ kinda thing… I’m curious to know why you didn’t address that question last time?
I also think that ten months is a decent amount of time to get to know someone. If I was interested in someone romantically, I’d be saying ‘yes’ to dinner for sure. If for no other reason than to get to know them better.
As Bewitched said, it’s not impossible. But, from what you’ve written, unless you’re missing out some major detail, my perspective is she sees you as a friend.
MJ,
This really all sounds pretty awesome. Others have more than given you the reality checks to try and not get yourself limerent or onto those harmful loops, and also that it could equally be a trust-based friendship on her side, nothing more. You don’t (and for now, can’t) know any of that. Just keep doing what you’re doing, let the trust build and keep an open mind. Even if it is friendship, nothing more, that’s an amazing thing to have in your life, right? This all sounds great. I did not see my LO outside of work for the first many years I knew her, or even try to. I feel like if I asked her for dinner near the start she would have said no. It would have been like jumping the gun. We have now built the trust where she would say (has said) yes to such invites, or sometimes asks me to do things like that (never really ‘dinner’, as that does just feel too much like a date in my situation, but getting lunch or a glass of wine after work, for example. The first time that ever happened, she asked me – I’d wait in your case and let her if she wants to). It can change with time. But I should add that part of the reason I think the trust is there with my LO is that I am a ‘safe option’ for her – partnered, and she knows I’m not going to try and turn it into a date or try and come onto her, etc.
Anyway my friend, enough of me getting back to my LO-praising: just enjoy this turn in your fortunes for what it is! You sound pretty level headed about it.
Trifles,
“Anyway, you asked why she turned down dinner with you that night. I’ll tell you the same thing I told LaR. She likes you – a lot, but probably not like THAT.”
I kind of hate to say it, but my MFF wouldn’t turn that down if I asked (as long as I applied good judgement about which day to ask). It would have been easier if she did. 😅 I think your point may well still apply though – it could well be because of the ‘not like THAT’ element that she feels comfortable enough to instigate or say yes to lunches etc.
📢📢📢⏰ “Wait, what’s that coming over the hill?” “It’s the LaR FUTULITY ALARM going off even before Trifles reminds him!”
Thanks LaR. I’ll take your words as good advice. It’s been really nice having normal friendship with this person. I guess for you it’s a little different having a SO around but it sounds like you make it work.
I’ll be sure to keep you posted. I appreciate you keeping up with me..
“it sounds like you make it work.”
Yes and no, MJ. In the case for the defence, it did and does genuinely work as a strong functioning M/F friendship – the limerence is in my head on top. I have never verbally or physically crossed any boundaries. And SO knows of and (to a point, anyway) says she accepts LO’s presence in my life.
So I can square it if I think like that, but at the same time I know there is a ‘having my cake and eating it’ element that’s selfish on my part and not fair on SO. I wouldn’t want her to be as close (really, or mentally) to another man. LO has a lot of my mental space and energy, still. Also the two of them have ultra different communication styles. I can be very direct with LO (this is what she likes) but not with SO who is more of a sensitive type. If I have spent too long around LO I can slip unthinkingly into being over-direct to SO or wanting her to be direct with me. When I catch myself at that, I feel reallu guilty.
How’s that for a balanced assessment of the iffy line I walk?
LaR,
It sounds like you strike a balance that, while at times seems to teeter in a way you’d rather it not, you then bring it back and put in place, where things belong. I see how that could be very mentally challenging though. I don’t really envy that part of it.
To me it reads like there is sometimes a challenge to making the balance happen but I commend you on at least having a modicum of honesty with your SO about it. Plus you don’t seem to have as much invested into LO, say as another (un-named) poster here, who has been way too over-the-top about his LO. It seems so deceitful and wrong to his SO, to not mention LO in any capacity, or even consider everything he could potentially lose as a result. Although how can I make that call when I don’t know that Woman or how she might even react? I can’t. I base a lot of my thoughts/opinions on how my Wife may have reacted, but that was 17 years ago. She knew a lot of what I was doing then. I didn’t really try to hide it. She just eventually became numb to it.
I lost everything to being a serial cheater and basic fraud to my now Ex-Wife. All this for cheap thrills with other Women. Most of whom didn’t give a $#!+ about me. Unlike you, I crossed boundaries and actually went there, and I’m still paying the price. But now that I’m older I’m past a lot of that and want to turn over a new leaf. Am I too late? Sometimes I wonder.
Anyway, sorry to go off on a rant here. Hope you don’t mind my thoughts. You seem to do alright though LaR. Just keep it 💯 with SO and you should be good.
Again best of luck. I appreciate you and your advice..
Thanks MJ.
I have read your stories about your married days, about the costs of that, and how this has translated into advice for another male poster. For what it is worth, i think that poster does love his SO very much, doesn’t intend to cross lines further, and just uses/used LwL to vent out the conflict and turmoil he felt. But you point out the possible costs from first hand experience, and that is a good thing to be reminded of in his/my position.
I really know what that turmoil is like. It is possible (and horrible, in a way) to feel in love with two people at once. I think what you see at LwL, of those of us with partners, is an unbalanced sample of people who do have generally decent moral compasses. Those who don’t would just have the affair, not spend time on a website about learning to cope with and resist what they’re feeling!
Thank you though for recognising difference between that other situation and mine. The thing is MJ, I am a hopeless liar and SO is a senser. I simply couldn’t live with all the pretending if, say, I didn’t admit I’d seen LO when I’d been out the house. It is better to give SO some of the facts but just leave the limerence out of it. I have got as far as “her friendship is really important to me because X and Y”. I try to say that sort of thing to SO without seeming to put LO on a pedestal or make comparisons. I guess only SO knows how she really feels about it.
LaR, nice to hear from you! I just meant to say that women can be friendly without it meaning that they are necessarily romantically interested. The clues can be hard to decipher when you really, really want to think that they are (interested). I guess the optimism can be hard for me to understand, especially with me now out of limerence. And even while limerent I tend to lean toward the “he can’t be interested in me in that way. I’m sure he just sees me as a friend…”
A lot of the cases I have read on here read to me as women acting like they would act with good, trusted friends (and some cases where the LO has barely even given the limerent the time of day, but nevertheless the limerent’s conclusion has been that she must be interested). There haven’t been clues that scream: she’s secretly in love with him! (Again, speaking generally of several cases here.)
My aim has been to try to keep the limerent’s/asker’s feet on the ground – there would be less of a crash down to earth that way. (I prefer that to giving someone false hope.) I’m glad others have been more eloquent and thorough with their reasoning than I have with my quick responses. 😅
Personally, I prefer and commend the direct approach. Man likes woman, he asks her out to dinner. Clear signal there, no ambiguity! (Unless we have a case like yours where there’s been friendship for 10 years, in which case the dinner invite translates into dinner with a friend. 😅) And I also like Cordelia’s approach to being turned down: tell her that if she wants to do dinner another time, she should suggest a time – it’s her turn to ask. Of course some might not like this approach because you no longer have control of the situation. And it also requires you to back off a little. But space can be a good thing, it can make someone realise what they want. …Okay, now I’m wading too far into the “however this, however that…” T-style speculation. I should get my own alerts for that! 📢📢
Have a good day!
LaR,
I get that it must be a real challenge to juggle two relationships at once, at least when you know you’ll never cross that boundary. My hats off to you and to anyone here struggling with that. It was not my intent to sound harsh or too judgemental of others in similar situations. I guess seeing it from this side now, I see again the deceit I was doing by not telling my Wife where I was at or what I was doing then. Swear I’ll forever be paying for that and I hate it.
Nowadays, I just don’t have it in me anymore to be like that. Or even want to attempt to be like that.
Trifles –
(a) asking directly – this is an internet forum…. clearly getting drunk and kissing is what you mean. Introverts need help.
(b) One of the biggest surprises for me as I get older has been that I find women of a similar age attractive more or less as much as younger women, and the lower boundary certainly increases a bit, if not as fast. We may not be as flexible as women around this, but it is a thing. Most men I know have very realistic ideas of who they like, and it is generally from 10 years younger up to 5 years older.
MJ – also following, the long game is a tough one but you are still doing well. As long as you don’t get limerent it is relatively risk free. I would also tip not feeling THAT way, but if you are an older man and cant directly ask for a first date you don’t have many options. I would just urge you very clearly to define with yourself your own boundaries and stick to them, and be decisive about when it is the right time to make a move. You asked to go to dinner which is the right approach I think. You were direct, and never said just as friends. Being nice is fine, being nice to get together with someone is o.k., but a grey area, being nice when they are clearly showing a lack of interest is the end. My barrier would always be at a minimum – if she ever starts talking about other men etc. shut it down. Given you are both available, she is likely thinking also about whether you are a potential partner or just friends, despite all the differences, and that boundary needs to be maintained. As long as you are genuine, have integrity and show a clear sense of self that is fine. You just need to be decisive at the right time, not straight away.
MJ,
I didn’t find you harsh or judgmental (towards me at all but not towards anyone else either). Your points are very well measured “If you do X, then Y could happen, so think what you want to achieve by X”. And you speak from experience and to people in my situation while we still have a choice. And that’s crucial. As I am always saying, I truly value the different opinions you all bring.
I don’t want or deserve too much sympathy for my version of the juggling act. I can’t help where my heart can pull me, but ultimately I have let myself get into the situation – nobody has done that to me. I am really working to do the right thing though (by them both, and by me) and thanks for recognising that. Different bits of my psyche move at different rates and bump up against each other.
I don’t like (for you) the fact you see your limerence for LO as some kind of punishment or fate for what you did all those years ago. I wish for you that you could make peace with yourself and move on now as that older and wiser MJ you’ve become.
The LF stuff I just continue to be encouraged by what you say. Just keep level and keep being good to her, without too much expectation, and see. Remember what I said recently – best not to amplify either the good or bad encounters to mean more than they do. Often these are just down to natural mood swings, no more.
Heebie Jeebies, a) 😂 I’m sure getting drunk and kissing has worked for many! (I don’t kiss and tell, so I’m just speaking generally 😇) As this is an internet forum, we do need to add that you have to be sure the other person wants it too… And I would NOT recommend it as a first course of action in coworker situations!
But I think I was actually talking about asking someone out to dinner. Scary, right? But some of us manage to do it! (Hats off)😉
b) As for the age thing, I don’t want to over-generalize or ruffle too many feathers. I’ll just say that the odds are stacked pretty badly against a man who goes after someone 15-25(!) years younger than him.
You are surprised that you still find women of your own age attractive? I wouldn’t think that’s so surprising.
I think (also hope) you’re right in that most people will want a partner who is somewhat near their age. Fantasies are a different thing. My range would also be 10 years below to about 5 years above. Much more than that… I’m in too good shape for most 50-somethings. 😜 They couldn’t keep up!
Trifles,
Always a pleasure 😊 Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.
“A lot of the cases I have read on here read to me as women acting like they would act with good, trusted friends”
Maybe – this is where I really can’t ever tell (not thinking about mine here, but other LwL male examples). Maybe it is because I am male and we just aren’t wired to ‘get’ this stuff? Sweeping over generalisation coming, but the female mind will, I think, always be a thing of great beauty and mystery to men.
“and some cases where the LO has barely even given the limerent the time of day, but nevertheless the limerent’s conclusion has been that she must be interested”
I must confess I find these LEs much harder to understand. Only with the emotional connection unmistakeably there do I ever really start getting fired up on someone.
“Personally, I prefer and commend the direct approach. Man likes woman, he asks her out to dinner. Clear signal there, no ambiguity!”
This bit of your message got me thinking (📢📢📢 T alarm!). I am a problem solver by nature. I don’t like to get stuck, I like to weigh the solutions and back one. In another hypothetical scenario I would have explored something like this with MFF long ago. There has also been just the odd time over the spell I’ve known her where it felt like it could have just ‘naturally developed’ if given oxygen, if you get my drift. And in either event, good or bad, I would have known, and to some degree would have had a start to solving the stuckness.
I was a late bloomer where it came to approaching the women I liked – wasn’t really confident at it until my 30s. Since then there has been SO, my LO3, and a crush. With SO I just asked her out and got a yes. Both the LO and the crush ended in mutual disclosures of sorts, acknowledgement it couldn’t happen, and parting with good feelings to remember. After those two, I was mercifully free of it anything like it for about 7 years. Then came MFF and this is the first time I have got really stuck in the loops. Nothing has changed in what I am (or more accurately am not) going to do about it – I’m still firm on ‘non disclose team’. But I found what you said there was a good springboard into exploring for myself why this situation became and has stayed frustrating. I have let go of the ‘needing to know’ a great deal now, but it will still always rankle the T in me (the F firmly regulates it).
“Okay, now I’m wading too far into the “however this, however that…” T-style speculation. I should get my own alerts for that!”
Let us remember that being a T sometimes gives us traits to celebrate too. Just needs everything in balance.
How is the TO situation, still fairly stable for you?
LaR,
“There has also been just the odd time over the spell I’ve known her where it felt like it could have just ‘naturally developed’ if given oxygen…”
Hmm… Developed… IF you were available. (I’d sound an alarm for this one, except you know all too well). Or do you mean some of these ‘spells’ were before you met SO? Would that make LO the one that got away?? I recognise the situation however. Interesting that you only found your footing in your 30s. Do you think that could have something to do with your propensity for limerence? I think there is truth in the old saying about “sowing your wild oats”. (How are we talking about agriculture again?! 😂) Although I guess the amount of sowing needed varies by person. And for some, no amount of sowing seems to protect them from limerence!
Thanks for asking about TO. And umm… I think things are going ok. At least, things are fine when he’s just using me as his personal Instagram and what not. The dangerous situations are when something happens in my life that upsets me, and he is so nice and supportive. Or something happens in his life that upsets him (his SO seeing a lawyer behind his back for example), and I support him. Well… What can I do except try to harden my heart? The thing is that it’s easier to open up to him, who’s not part of my everyday life, than to friends nearby.
So I’m toeing the line – all by choice, mind you. I can’t blame anyone but myself. 😕
Trifles,
“Hmm… Developed… IF you were available. (I’d sound an alarm for this one, except you know all too well).”
🔍it was caveated, but probably not enough! I meant ‘if given oxygen’ to be my caveat, but could add ‘I deliberately didn’t give it oxygen in those moments, and nor did she’ (all true). I can’t trust my limited S ability that well, so I am not sure how much those moments were ‘moments’ or ‘brain moments’.
Before I met SO, LO was in a LTR of her own. So no (hangs head), those isolated moments did not occur back then, but since. Is/will LO be ‘the one that got away’? Gawd that’s a tricky question. I couldn’t look you in the eye and say ‘no, I will never feel like that’. If I do, it will just have to be something I live with as the outcome of my decisions at the time. As long as I have the friendship with her ticking on a similar level as now, I don’t really feel she has got away. That’s what feels more important right now than what I don’t / can’t have with her. Can that sustain, who knows? But I get your drift and it varies day by day how I feel – I wish I could just have a less ambiguous and twisty answer!
“How are we talking about agriculture again?”
A man reaps what he sows.
“Although I guess the amount of sowing needed varies by person. And for some, no amount of sowing seems to protect them from limerence!”
I think for me it was less about sowing my seeds all over the farmland estate, and more about carefully cultivating (resists urge to say ‘ploughing’ or ‘rooting’ – kind of) nice crops on small patches of the land I grew to like. I did kinda miss out when I was much younger. Then all through my 20s I had two LTRs so didn’t get out and investigate the farm. So your point is good to ponder on.
“The dangerous situations are when something happens in my life that upsets me, and he is so nice and supportive. Or something happens in his life that upsets him … and I support him. Well… What can I do except try to harden my heart?”
We all need people to open up to, and it seems he is the natural choice go-to for you now to do that with, and vice versa. And I get that, really I do. I could say all the usual platitudes about how it would be better to find other people etc, but then why? ‘Our people’ don’t appear that often. It all just sounds quite nice to me. Do you *need* to harden your heart to him? I feel like as long as he isn’t affecting your wellbeing negatively – and you will have a good radar for that – then (like I said before), no harm done. The way you describe it you do seem to be resisting limerence for him. If that changed, a rethink would be needed. I’m sure he will appreciate having you to talk to as he works through his stuff. I can see why the ‘personal Instagram’ side would get annoying, mind you.
Remember, us LwLers are here to help too, in our weird dislocated way. I know I owe you a smoothie or maybe a Mojito 🥴 😂
LaR, I guess we should change the discourse of “ones that got away”. It’s not really constructive. There’s different types of relationships and not all need to lead down a romantic path (even though the pair bonding drive is sometimes strong!). Like you always tell me, let’s just enjoy having found ‘our people’. Even if they might just be there for “a season” (possible in my case). And good for you for resisting dropping ‘rooting’ into the conversation!
You give me too much credit (that everything is under control)! We T-types have feelings too – that can burst to the surface! 😜 Looking at this from the outside, if I were to give the poster “Trifles” advice, I would probably tell her she needs to suck it up and find someone else to confide in. And thanks for your offer of using LwL for that. … But I’m just not comfortable, in this open space. Also, certain things fit into the discussion here but there’s more to life than just limerence! Though it may be hard to imagine..!
I was doing better with diversifying my needs/feelings when I recently had harmless crushes on several people (ah, this stage in life!) – all turned out to be partnered and/or ethically gray zone to date! 😂 (I don’t meet a lot of new people.) But unfortunately(!) I’ve gotten over those.
I maintain that I’m not limerent because limerence to me is obsessive. But I really like him and these moments of emotional closeness are a little difficult to deal with when we are geographically far apart.
And I’ve accepted the fact that we won’t be able to meet, at least not in the near future. So it’s just as futile as limerence in its own way.
Btw, how did you figure out that the Mojito was my drink? 🤔 (Ok, mine and every other woman’s!) If you don’t have all the ingredients I’ll settle for a Cuba libre. 👍
Trifles,
Wow, I had to look up your fancy name for a rum and coke. How did I know Mojito?! It’s that ‘N’ in me! (Or maybe I fluked it from the mint choice in the Smoothie).
More to life than limerence – like, really, what?! But joking aside, I get that, and that not everything can be dealt with here.
I’d say the combination then – don’t let TO block you from finding more people to confide in or opportunities / horizons to enjoy, but also appreciate what you have with him and resist questioning it too much. Will that do for balance?! My criteria is ‘if it isn’t doing net harm to us or others, it isn’t a bad thing’. And I’m not claiming I apply that perfectly to my situation at all – it’s more something I’d say to others on a “do as I say, not as I do” basis. We both know that not everything goes where the T brain wants it to!
“Will that do for balance?!”
Yes! That’s exactly what I’m going for. (Easier said than done sometimes) I also need a good balance of other interests so as not to dwell on one thing/person too much.
The “net harm vs good” idea is worth following as well.
Aha, there was mint in the smoothie! I couldn’t remember what there was besides strawberry. I figured you had that and S. Ellis-Bextor to work with. 😜
I’d momentarily forgotten about Sophie. Was thinking more about what farmers like to sup after a taxing day out in the fields 🍸
Ha, you got me almost laughing out loud on my morning commute! Thanks, now I have an image of LO daintily sipping his mojito after a long day out in the field(?!)
Well if said person is anything like my wife’s grandfather who worked in the fields for a living, he liked coffee in the morning and when his day was done he would crumble cornbread into a glass of milk and eat it with a spoon.
Adam, thanks for that visual as well! 😁
I would say that’s a man after my own heart – if I had any idea what corn bread tasted like (must be a Southern US thing)!
@MJ
Dude! You left out some major details! I only just saw your response to Bewitched. Well, maybe there is hope…
You painted a pretty hopeless picture in your update!
Maybe ask her to go for dinner with a bit more lead up next time. Perhaps the impromptu just wasn’t the right time. If she says no again, then I’d leave the ball in her court. Even tell her that. Personally, I like doing the asking. Every relationship I’ve been in where I made the first move was great. Every relationship where he made the first move was awful!
Good luck 🍀
I will try and keep an eye out over coming weeks. I usually read the blog post on a Saturday (here in the future in Australia) and quickly scan the recent post list. I rarely have time to read further than that so hope I don’t miss any major developments!
Cordelia,
Thank you for the reply. I’m glad you kept scrolling. I wanted you to see the update about her not ever wanting kids. She said she really values her freedom now. I think her not having a SO is where she’s comfortable at for the moment. So maybe she’s just not wanting the commitment. I get it because it does change things. At the same time though, I don’t want to be the clingy type either. Pedastaling her isn’t even on my radar.
I keep thanking God I am sustaining this. She couldn’t have come at a better time.
This post will probably get lost in the foray of messages posted, but I hope you’ll come back and find it. I’ll be keeping an update somewhere. As always I appreciate your support. Now let’s see if Lady Friend finally asks me out on that date..
You wish MJ.. 🤣🤣
MJ,
when I was younger I developed a friendship with a male coworker who was older, maybe +15-20 years. We got on so well. In hindsight I was probably very naïve that I hadn’t picked up on the signals that he wanted it to go further. Okay he was also married! But even if we were both single I don’t think I would have wanted it to go ‘that’ way even though he was very attractive. It ended a bit sour when he gave me a romantic gift and I rejected it, in an overly dramatic way. Maybe he had limerence, who knows ?!
I’m not saying your situation is the same. But I would say don’t overthink it or push it and value the friendship, especially with a coworker. (As some others have said)
Your interaction at the weekend developed naturally without planning, that was what was so nice about it.
Going out to dinner in the evening is more on the lines of a date – which I get her being maybe more wary to do so.
Thanks Imho.
Your post makes a lot of sense. It’s just very difficult for me to not want to be closer with her because I long so much to be with someone right now. Like all those pent-up months of getting worked up over LO, only to have it self-destruct before I ever got it off the ground. (My fault though, I get it) I feel like I have so much love to give and it’s so hard to have to contain it with this person.
You may have been in the right, from your older co-worker, rejecting a romantic gift from a him. Especially since he was married. Although he was probably in a crap situation his Wife and hopeful you would stick around to see how far he could push you. Not your fault. He probably meant you no harm.
Prior to LO, I met a married Woman and tried being her Friend too. I might have just been the perfect idiot to get her a gift like that, if she would have obliged me. I’ve never really been too smart when it comes to the opposite sex. I admit it. I guess that explains why a LE finally almost drove me off the deep end.
I’m really not trying to go there again. I’m working on this great Friendship now. Hopeful it will continue towards something lasting. Even if it never goes romantic. She’s a very sweet Woman with a good heart and I love getting to know her better, every time she is around.
MJ,
Thanks for your eloquent reply.
The guy at work was a nice man and not a creep. It could have been someone like you or hell me now !
I have the urge to give perfect gifts for my LO a lot of the time!
So yes, I should have been kinder and more understanding in my rejection, but I was young and to some degree liked a drama.
I think as a younger woman I was very wary of men and didn’t realise some men are very sensitive and have truly romantic not just seeking a one night stand.
Anyway, I’m so pleased you have this new friendship and you are in a happier place than when you were first here.
Maybe would be good for you to build connections or interests beyond LF to give you fun and joy etc. spread the love!
Best wishes
Imho/MJ,
Oh, gifts (sigh)
Just the greatest and yet the worst thing, right?!
IMHO
That was one of the most frustrating parts of others observing me with LO. Everyone thought it was a crush to an old man perving on a younger woman. It was infuriating and frustrating because it would draw attention not just to me but to her. And I didn’t want that so I had find other outlets for my anger and frustration. Yes there are men that want a meaningful connections with a woman without any ulterior motives. But for the most part society, at least American society, doesn’t see it that way.
“Oh, gifts (sigh)
Just the greatest and yet the worst thing, right?!”
LaR,
Lady Friend has a bday coming up in a few weeks. She’s not too happy about turning 30 but I tell her to stay positive anyway. It could be worse..
I’m gifted up and ready to do the deed. Again! Might be the greatest or the worst thing.. 🤔
Keep you posted..
Sorry Cordelia, maybe that came across a bit harsh given your more complicated history, but I’ll stick to the same basic claim. If you knew LO was limerent for you, would it change things? If LO was just using you for years for valdiation would it change anything?
FYI we have some similarities in our cases. LO2 has never really gone away fully (despite LO3) after 19 years. We dated, she pushed me away, and (years later) later said she regretted it, but prior to that we had muddled into a few years of online friendship as I was now with SO (who is great). The ‘confession’ came after I accidentally confronted her and then NC. Main difference is she went NC as i dont think she was ‘that’ into me, or she is just a decent person and didn’t want to mess with my relationship. The question taunted me for years though, until kids came along and, well, who the hell has time for anything except surviving that and feeling as unsexy as hell!
Regardless, my key point is that with a recent relapse, I realized that what I have to finally accept is it doesn’t matter why she behaved as she did. Even if she had back then confessed undying love to me, I dont think I would have left my partner. The moment had passed, the limerence and being pushed and pulled was so harrowing I don’t think I could ever built a normal relationship with her. That realization has taken a long long time to come. It is probably easier for me as she was more clearly not ‘that’ into me, so don’t want to be unduly harsh.
@HJ
I’m not sure I completely follow your two posts. I’ll give a quick rundown of why it matters and then I’m out again…
I’m guessing you’ve never been gaslit. I mean seriously gaslit over years. My ex did that to me. One time he did something pretty bad. I asked him if he’d done it. He got very aggressive with me and denied it. This time I had witnesses! People who also saw and heard what he’d done. I had flashbacks of all the other times he’d done that and then convinced me I was the asshole. He destroyed me.
Working with a psychologist I gradually got rid of everyone in my life who had trampled on me. I figured out why LO gave me night terrors. As I said above, those terrors were awful. I was desperate to know why I had that response to LO (especially because understanding the trigger could stop me having them again maybe with someone else). I went looking through old conversations we’d had online and in emails etc. I was stunned by what I’d found. A lot of this was prior to me having an SO. In fact, LO never flirted with me when I had an SO. Nor when he had an SO.
For me, I wanted to know if I’d had that love for someone who could use me for validation every time we were both single… or if he’d genuinely had feelings for me. It matters because my instinct says he wasn’t using me for validation and there were reasons for his denial. But after years of having someone convince me I was wrong, I struggled to trust my own judgment about things. The one thing I did then find out about LO that has me feeling he was vindictive and not as kind as I had thought is that I asked him for the truth because I felt it was the lies between us causing the terrors. He told me I needed to figure that out myself. In the end, I didn’t need him to help me figure it out. It took me a couple of years to fully see the patterns in our conversations and when they coincided with the periods I had terrors. So, when you’re in that kind of psychological distress and the two men you’re closest to seem to have difficulty with the truth, it says a lot about who you are and what you’ll allow. I caught my SO in a big lie. I still don’t know if MY perception of LO was accurate and what the reasons were behind his behavior. Without that information, it makes it hard for me to trust myself and my judgement.
I was in a relationship after everything with LO blew up for about a year. He is a beautiful soul. He wasn’t right for me, so I ended things. But it felt good to be with someone who was safe. Who I knew I could trust right from the start. It somewhat repaired my soul. So I’m comfortable with not knowing how LO felt. But I would still LIKE to know. I do feel that if I came across another LO-type these days, I’d nip it in the bud. That’s the important thing.
I intended for that to be short. It really wasn’t. I have to get back to work! 😅
@MJ
Next time I’m in LWL-town, I’ll ask at the saloon (AKA coffeehouse) where you’re at ☺️
@MJ
Next time I’m in LWL-town, I’ll ask at the saloon (AKA coffeehouse) where you’re at ☺️
That’s great news favorite Cheerleader.
I’ll be here.. I’ll save you a spot at the bar. Right next to me.. 😇
Cordelia, yes, I woudl definitely LIKE to know, we are agreed there. As long as that likeing doesn’t become wanting or needing to know, then I think that is enough progress.
Recently I actually began to think that maybe not knowing is better, because it will allow me to decide for myself that it doesn’t matter. If I need to know to reach ‘closure’ I will have made myself dependant on her ‘revealing’. The decision to move on has to be mine, whether it is to nromal friendship, NC etc.
Yeah you really did get gaslit pretty badly, sorry to hear that. Also, the answer ‘you have to figure that out yourself’ though is just super sh*tty’. Whatever his reasons might have been, that shows such a lack of compassion…
And yes, back to work….
I agree, Lim-a-rant, and that’s one of the reasons I decided to discuss it in the Coffeehouse. There does seem to be a growing awareness that we need to find a way to escape the endless escalation of rhetoric.
People are actually dying (through both murder and suicide) in the fall out.
Thanks Tom. I’m going to butt out of the politics bit for a while and see what other LwLers have to say about it now, but I’m very glad you opened this up and am interested to see where it goes.
LwL, with its benefit of anonymity, feels a safer spot to find out how people are feeling about all this than almost anywhere in my offline or online life. I’ve had to put in the hard yards and reading, like you, to get into a space to be able to value and appreciate opposite political viewpoints.
I voted for Trump not for him as a person, but for the reality that the Republican party doesn’t tend to overtax us. It could have been Mickey Mouse running and I would have voted for him! I got tired of living paycheck to paycheck since the Democrats came into office four years ago. And I have a good paying job! I know that Trump as a person isn’t an ideal president; but I have to keep in mind that he is not a dictator. For me, it’s more about the platform and what it stands for. The Republican platform stands more for less government involvement and less taxing the people. This day and age, the Democratic platform leans more toward a sort of weird welfare system — it heavily taxes us and produces a lot of social dependence on the government. This has been my experience as an American woman living in California all my life. Just my two cents.
Some of my COO classmates (high end IT jobs, NOT from check to check) in CA voted for Trump, despite they can’t stomach his personality. They care about their pocket first.
“I know that Trump as a person isn’t an ideal president; but I have to keep in mind that he is not a dictator.”
He wants to be a dictator, though, he’s made that quite clear, and he stands a vastly better chance of achieving it this time around.
I live in an extremely red state and the idea that the right wing doesn’t hate the left is entirely laughable to me. They do hate us, they think we’re demon-possessed.
The idea that, somehow, understanding them will fix everything, is also laughable to me. They’re not trying to understand us, at all. It’s the kind of thinking that people adopt when they’re trapped in an abusive relationship. The proper thinking when trapped in a relationship with a malignant narcissist isn’t “how can I understand this maniac better?” It’s “how can I regain my power and get the upper hand in this situation.” If someone hates you and wishes you ill, there’s nothing to understand.
Second your opinion here: Trump wants to be a dictator, and will try to do so within his power.
Growing up in a dictatorship COO, I could smell it from a thousand miles away.
@ Snow
Narcissists running countries is the norm now.
Don’t come anywhere near Canada, the stench will knock you over.
“Narcissists running countries is the norm now.”
That’s so demoralizing ☹️
Trudeau is Narcissist as well? Not really following him, only I was surprised when he separated with his wife…
it seems that things running inside a house often mismatch their public appearance, like in Bill Gates’ case, and many, many more…
There are reasons, known or unknown behind positive or negative emotions.
Understanding Narcissists in a very abusive relationship means to firmly WALK AWAY — the ONLY upper hand, with a sense of POWER and PEACE, instead of a stormy REACTIONS, which is a “loss” in Stoic way.
For those who wants to win a ultimate war against Narcissists of all types —
https://narcsite.com/about/
https://m.youtube.com/@hgtudor-theultra
AFP
I think you’re correct where people may be white supremacists or misogynists or anyone who voted for Trump out of hatred. Those people scare the shit out of me. There’s no reasoning with them nor understanding them.
I’m talking about the people that Tom is talking about. People who voted for Trump because they believe he will do good things for the US. I told my friend that I just can’t agree (even if I began to understand why she voted for him) and that time will tell. If she’s wrong, it could be disastrous for the US and the whole world. If she’s right, honestly I’ll be happy to be wrong for the sake of everyone.
I agree. Understanding won’t fix everything, if you fundamentally disagree with the direction that Trump wants to take the country in.
But, understanding can give you back a sense of agency, calm the worst fears, and make you more effective at persuasive counter argument.
As an example: when someone voted for Brexit because they think the EU is a corrupt, bloated bureaucracy and wanted Britain to be in charge of her own fate, calling them a racist who hates immigrants immediately tells them you are someone whose opinion can be dismissed.
If instead you point out that reforming the system from within while maintain economic access to our biggest trading partner is a much better strategy, they are more likely to listen.
Similarly, understanding that someone is a malignant narcissist and that explains why your relationship is abusive is an incredibly powerful step for getting your escape strategy straight. But, assuming someone is a narcissist when they actually aren’t means it will be harder to predict their behaviour as you take steps to secure freedom and stay safe.
Understanding doesn’t mean affirming. My view is that more knowledge is almost always empowering.
Song of the Blog: “The Merry Little Minuet” – The Kingston Trio (1950)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUfUAnqRJTQ
IMO, what we’re seeing is the backlash of a sizeable number of people who feel disenfranchised to the point of taking action. History has any number of examples of what happens when that occurs, going back to at least the Roman Empire.
I’m not an Al Gore fan by any means. But, he said something recently that could be really scary. He warned of something of upward of a billion “climate migrants” who will move as a result of climate change. He said if you think thousands or a few millions of people showing up in your backyard is a problem, think of what tens of millions or more will be.
Climate migration goes back to the Ice Age. However, there were a lot fewer people and a lot more space.
Years ago, I was at Heathrow waiting to return to the US. I was talking to a gentleman from northern England. This was when Scottish Independence was coming up for a referendum. He said that while he sympathized with the idea, practically, it was a dumb as an idea as you could get. He ran off a list.
He had friends who lived on the proposed border. Their property would have been cut in two.
Scotland has no military. They’d have to contract out their defense.
Scotland has no independent Foreign Office. Countries would have to recognize them and treat them accordingly.
Scotland has no independent Central Bank. They would have likely had to adopt the Euro and they had no credit rating, hence borrowing money would be very hard. World Bank, here we come!
He went on. Not being in the UK, I don’t know if Scottish Independence was as polarizing as Brexit was.
LE,
It polarised Scotland down the middle from what I could glean, but most of England was a bit more ‘whatever’. England knew the logistics wouldnt work, but as it wasn’t an English decision, it was more of a curious watching from a distance to see what unfolded. Brexit in contrast split the people in half and broke up extended families and friendships.
Broadly agree. But there were also a number of English people that felt it was unjust that only one party in a centuries-old union got to vote on its future.
And for what it’s worth, I would have voted for maintaining the union because I love Scotland and felt England would have been greatly diminished by its loss.
(That’s also why I voted Remain – sentimental attachment to the European countries I loved visiting, justified by economic arguments for continuity of trade).
Tom,
“That’s also why I voted Remain – sentimental attachment to the European countries I loved visiting, justified by economic arguments for continuity of trade.”
One thing I picked up was how many voted Remain because they felt a sense of European identity and solidarity with Europe. As I’ve tried harder to understand leavers’ perspectives, I have realised these two things can be separated – you can have a European identity/liking for all things European AND still not want the arguably bloated and undemocratic structure of the EU. I couldn’t separate those two things in the past but felt I could not go on with what was happening – of being part of something to smear leave voters as ignorant racists and bigots. If 52% voted for it, there had to be something a bit more to it, even if I don’t agree with some/much of it. I looked into what they had to say more.
US civic lesson:
The US has “states,” “commonwealths,” and “territories,” with the District of Columbia as an outlier, “states” having the highest status. Complicating things is the fact that several states identify as commonwealths but aren’t legally. As nearly as I can figure it out, commonwealths and territories are places of strategic significance and don’t want anybody else to have that we could otherwise care less about. If it weren’t for some of the islands in the Pacific, where would have tested our nuclear weapons? Crappy, but true.
Puerto Rico, for example, has a well-established, occasionally violent, separatist movement. They’ve been quiet for quite awhile now. Puerto Rico actively pushes for statehood, which would give them more representation in Congress and tilts decidedly to one side. It would also cost a lot more money to maintain. [I think that the only way the US will ever admit another state is to adopt something akin to the Missouri Compromise that you can’t admit a “Red State” unless you also admit a “Blue State.” Balance of power is a thing.]
I worked in an agency that had a large number of people from Puerto Rico in it. You’d hear as much Spanish in elevators and the cafeteria as you did English. Somebody complained that it over-recruited from Puerto Rico. I think it was filed by an HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities.) They had to cut back recruiting on the island. Many of my former coworkers had strong ties to the island and visited frequently. Not a single one of them wanted to live there.
When Puerto Rico was making one of their pushes for statehood, I mentioned to a coworker from there that why not just cut them loose and make the separatists happy. A lot of people on the mainland wouldn’t care or would actively support the idea.
He said that would be a disaster. He said that if the US granted Puerto Rico independence, given the corruption of the local government, marginal infrastructure, and brain drain from the island, in 3-5 years Puerto Rico would be a step above Haiti.
Be careful what you wish for.
In 2017 I spearheaded my town’s women’s march against Trump and yet… I voted for him in this last election… Instead of trying to explain myself I beg you to listen to a few of the erudite and intelligent interviews on The Great Simplification podcast that changed my vote/worldview. Really. Just humor me a moment, drop the limerence habit for a split second, and go look at names listed under “episodes” and tell me you’re not impressed (or terrified if you’ve never heard anything about polycrisis). The two specific episodes that turned my vote Trumpy were: “Reality Round Table 12: The Global States of the U.S. Election: Debt, the Dollar and Military Power” with Michael Every, Luke Groman (and Nate Hagen) and episode 118 with Michael Every: “The many -isms of the Metacrisis'”.
No matter who says what, I will never vote for Trump even in my next life as a real ghost.
I’m sufficiently exposed to the MAGA worldview to know this would prompt a joke about the dead having voted for Biden in the 2020 election.
Another example of how the discourse has collapsed into point-scoring.
DrL,
Do you know anything about Chicago politics?
It’s well documented how the “ghost voters of the First Ward” swung Illinois for Kennedy in 1960. There was also a documented instance of one precinct that had only 13 registered voters counting 27 votes for Kennedy.
Ghosts can’t just rest in peace in Cook County, IL, they’re required to return from the grave at least every 4 years to vote.
I didn’t know much about US election systems before 2016, but it’s been part of my education since. I have to admit to being astonished as to how complex and partisan it is. In the UK we have paper ballots, one election day (unless you request a postal vote ahead of time), and the results are known by the following day. It’s all overseen by the electoral commission which is civil service, not party political.
The idea of counts going on for weeks, ballots being disputed and cured, machines of questionable functionality that can break down, and partisan election officials is totally alien. It seems to invite suspicions and doubt.
When my daughter was young and in a stroller, we voted in the election. I put the “I voted” sticker on her coat.
A woman in line saw it and said it was cute. My response was that I was from Chicago and back there, my daughter probably had voted, likely twice.
It’s interesting. One party’s platform is based on voter disenfranchisement and the other party’s platform is about election integrity.
Sometimes, it’s hard to tell which party is which.
LOL Snow!
We were in dire straits here in Canada before the election and Trump will slap tariffs on us so fast our heads will spin. So, further down the rabbit hole we gooooooo….
But having said that, I believe he does have his countries best interest at heart. Not like the a*hole we have here.
Anna,
“ I believe he does have his countries best interest at heart“.
Disagree with you here, he only has his own goal at heart — to become an unstoppable dictator, the addiction of which still won’t fill his bottomless, pathologically narcissistic hole.
It’s a scary situation but maybe not get to as bad as COO, we’ll see. I really hope I am wrong.
@Snow
I guess we can agree to disagree.
Don’t get me wrong he reminds me of our dictator here, only more powerful.
I don’t even know if you reside in the US?
I hate politics and steer clear when I can but he only has 4 years to get anything done. If he can.
Lets hope he does it for the American people.
Anna,
Yes. I live in the East coast, voted, even worked 17 hours on a poll site on 5th, and took my anger (after listening to a Trumpian co-worker’s babbling all day) out on LaR, who self-claims to be a “vanilla” ghost here.
Trump already changed the nature of Supreme Court, and can change a lot, a lot more in another 4 years now with R majority in congress. I also hate politics, but politics affect small people’s life, concretely, the world wide.
Snow, Anna,
If I was to try and put a finger on what my ‘vanilla’ means, I would identify two things. The first is to say that of all the options I have, in my adult voting life I have gone every way at different times. Second – my main political goal right now (the one I would stand in a protest march for) is the one DrL identified – more positive, truthful and constructive discourse between all sides. If we don’t get that, eventually lots of people are going to die as a result – it is as simple as that (DrL says they already are). That is more important to me than any one party’s view.
Anna, I’m glad you can see that your leader is a dictator. My mate who emigrated over there can’t see it. Dictators exist on all sides of the political spectrum. Some advertise the fact, some hide it in plain sight. I hope Canada does the right thing in its next general election.
Both of you – read The Righteous Mind by Haidt (DrL’s rec) if you haven’t already. It is essential reading anyway, but Snow, after reading it, you’d understand what my ‘vanilla’ really meant.
LaR,
As an ESL speaker, I’m “entitled” and much freer to use a word anyway imaginative or unimaginative — twist it and toss it around to fit my purpose or make a purple prose out of it… 😳
In COO, we also have a term “Vanilla guy” to describe sweet, smooth, feminized men (not for dessert)…. 😆
I’ll see if I have time to tackle Haidt’s book over the winter break, normally I don’t spend that much time in politics but only keep updates by scanning the news of big newspaper (not from any social media). I’m more into reading poetry and relevant (to me) psychology stuff, still slowly chewing and digesting SCHREIBER’s stuff linked by LE.
Hi Snow,
My meaning behind ‘vanilla’ (which I think is a common one) is something like ‘mild – not that exciting’.
I’ve heard about your ‘vanilla guy’ sense of it too.
Bits of Haidt’s book are about politics, but I wouldn’t say it’s the main theme. Loads of evolutionary biology, animal psychology and a deep dive into morals too. Something for everyone in there. I think it does well at explaining why each side (actually he has three sides) of the political spectrum thinks like it does (the value and moral bases), and why it is so hard for them to ‘speak’ to each other as a result. It is like two different languages being spoken.
“People who voted for Trump did so primarily for reasons they felt were beneficial to themselves, while those who voted for Harris did so for reasons that may never impact them personally but would benefit those around them.”
Hi Seagull,
Not sure if you are quoting someone else here, but this sentiment would be shared (in the opposite direction) by Trump voters.
“People who voted for Harris did so primarily to feel good about themselves, moralising about policies that don’t affect them, while smearing the people who suffer the costs. People who voted for Trump did what was actually best for the country.”
That misunderstanding comes from misreading the other side’s motives.
In this case, Harris supporters, motivated by a desire to help others, voted for policies that would increase government support for marginalised groups. Trump supporters, motivated by a desire to help others, voted for policies that would reduce government overreach, overspending, and mismanagement of crime and immigration.
I suppose the fundamental disagreement is this: is government the solution or the problem?
Hello Dr. L –
I do not know who wrote the quote. I read it in two different newspaper articles, but the author is unknown. Perhaps I should have added -Unknown at the end.
In any case, I agree with the quote I entered above. All I know is what I see. I am 66 years old and I have been around a long time. I have seen and heard way too much!
I am an American married to a Scot (we were negatively affected by Brexit and still are). Most American’s don’t understand or care about Brexit. We moved to the US in Sept 2016 and it hasn’t been easy. Now add my husband’s limerence for a co-worker in 2019.
Tomorrow being Thanksgiving (which used to be my favorite holiday), I would like to post something my limerent husband said to me 2 weeks after D-Day (Nov 15, 2019), on Thanksgiving Day – Nov 28, 2019. He looked at me over the dinner I prepared and said, “I’m torn between the two of you.” His co-worker? She had been married 42 years at the time. Unbeknownst to me until Sept 2022, he asked her to marry him in a letter given to her at work the day after D-Day.
I had never heard of the word limerence until Nov 16, 2019, when I typed the words “My husband is having an affair and seems like a stranger to me.” Your website was the first one regarding limerence I visited. I have been visiting ever since. A few days ago was my first post on this or any website dealing with limerence.
Again, all I know what I see.
Since this is a coffeehouse I can share half drunk I found this song and I’m listening it on loop while I play Xbox. Shout out to the tomgirls I always seem to keep falling for …
Terri Clark — Dirty Girl
https://youtu.be/_c5E6aIByMY?si=XRdRbygqO6NoNsRW
I’ll make an actual relative comment Monday. I hate typing on my phone.
Sheesh, Adam,
Sometimes, you make my job so easy…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anC6uFVHZCA – Frasier (Season 3, Episode 7)
L.E.
In my younger years I thought I wanted to marry a Mary Poppins or June Cleaver when I grew up. Instead I always fall for Laverne’s and Shirley’s. So I guess it is no surprise an attractive tough as nails tomgirl country singer is my kryptonite.
But I ain’t no bad boy though.
Unless when the door’s closed and Momma asks real nicely.
After the election, my Daughter txtd everybody in our Family chat and said she is going to die.. Knowing that this txt was concerning the election and my present status with her, I knew the topic was a slippery slope. So I decided to reply back with, “Not today you are.”
The txt string has not continued..
Personally I am glad the process is over. I was tired of all the divisiveness and rhetoric. Everything is really going to be alright and in time, I am hopeful many will see this..
Im sorry to hear this MJ my friend. On the political campaign there a lot of mixed feelings. My wife and I are on two different planes. Know that people are different. I know you are a loving father. And you want to protect and support your daughter. I’m here for you my brother. I never had daughters but I always wanted one. I know you will cherish her because you are a good father. And I know you love her. Limerence set me apart from our youngest boy. But be there for her. She’ll recognize your serenity. I got your back my brother.
All good Adam. Thank you Friend. She’ll be alright. My Ex keeps telling me to let her keep finding her way and allow her to grow up while she’s away at College. She’s coming home soon for Thanksgiving break.
My Ex pretty much raised her without me anyway. I wasn’t around much with my Daughter like I was with my Son, so relationship between the two of them is quite different. Some resentment still and probably room for her to always say she has Daddy issues. However, I’m just grateful she’s turned out pretty decent without becoming a TikTok influencer or resorting to OnlyFans..
The Flight of the Crows
Emily Pauline Johnson
The autumn afternoon is dying o’er
The quiet western valley where I lie
Beneath the maples on the river shore,
Where tinted leaves, blue waters and fair sky
Environ all; and far above some birds are flying by
To seek their evening haven in the breast
And calm embrace of silence, while they sing
Te Deums to the night, invoking rest
For busy chirping voice and tired wing—
And in the hush of sleeping trees their sleeping cradles swing.
In forest arms the night will soonest creep,
Where sombre pines a lullaby intone,
Where Nature’s children curl themselves to sleep,
And all is still at last, save where alone
A band of black, belated crows arrive from lands unknown.
Strange sojourn has been theirs since waking day,
Strange sights and cities in their wanderings blend
With fields of yellow maize, and leagues away
With rivers where their sweeping waters wend
Past velvet banks to rocky shores, in cañons bold to end.
O’er what vast lakes that stretch superbly dead,
Till lashed to life by storm-clouds, have they flown?
In what wild lands, in laggard flight have led
Their aërial career unseen, unknown,
’Till now with twilight come their cries in lonely monotone?
The flapping of their pinions in the air
Dies in the hush of distance, while they light
Within the fir tops, weirdly black and bare,
That stand with giant strength and peerless height,
To shelter fairy, bird and beast throughout the closing night.
Strange black and princely pirates of the skies,
Would that your wind-tossed travels I could know!
Would that my soul could see, and, seeing, rise
To unrestricted life where ebb and flow
Of Nature’s pulse would constitute a wider life below!
Could I but live just here in Freedom’s arms,
A kingly life without a sovereign’s care!
Vain dreams! Day hides with closing wings her charms,
And all is cradled in repose, save where
Yon band of black, belated crows still frets the evening air.
******
Would that my soul could see, and, seeing, rise
To unrestricted life where ebb and flow
Of Nature’s pulse would constitute a wider life below!
Rainy Night
Dorothy Parker
Ghosts of all my lovely sins,
Who attend too well my pillow,
Gay the wanton rain begins;
Hide the limp and tearful willow.
Turn aside your eyes and ears,
Trail away your robes of sorrow,
You shall have my further years,—
You shall walk with me tomorrow.
I am sister to the rain;
Fey and sudden and unholy,
Petulant at the windowpane,
Quickly lost, remembered slowly.
I have lived with shades, a shade;
I am hung with graveyard flowers.
Let me be tonight arrayed
In the silver of the showers.
Every fragile thing shall rust;
When another April passes
I may be a furry dust,
Sifting through the brittle grasses.
All sweet sins shall be forgot;
Who will live to tell their siring?
Hear me now, nor let me rot
Wistful still, and still aspiring.
Ghosts of dear temptations, heed;
I am frail, be you forgiving.
See you not that I have need
To be living with the living?
Sail, tonight, the Styx’s breast;
Glide among the dim processions
Of the exquisite unblest,
Spirits of my shared transgressions.
Roam with young Persephone,
Plucking poppies for your slumber …
With the morrow, there shall be
One more wraith among your number.
****
All sweet sins shall be forgiven but not forgotten;
I will live to tell their siring.
Hear me now, nor charge me rotten
Wistful still, and still aspiring.
🐦🔥
Hi all. I have been following the site for a while but have never posted. I was keen to get some perspective on something. I have been waiting on the right topic but since this is a coffeehouse, thought I’d bite the bullet and post here.
My question is, does limerence for a person ever completely die or does it just cool down to an ember, waiting to be rekindled in the right circumstances?
To set this question into context, I’ll tell you a shortened version of my story. I became limerent for a co-worker around a year ago. I’d always felt the “glimmer” since we met years previously but I made the mistake of breathing air into it during a works night out by telling him I felt attracted to him after a round of tequila. A year ago is when it intensified into full blown limerence. And it transpired it was mutual. Great eh? Nope. I have an SO as does he. Nothing physical happened but we started spending more time with one another (lunches and coffees) and disclosed our feelings to one another. It was hurtling pretty close to an emotional affair if not already there.
Then something catastrophic happened to his SO. I won’t share the detail of that but I am pretty sure it snapped him out of the madness and he said that things had to change. And he was right. A change of some sort was inevitable but that was the catalyst. And they have changed. For months now our contact has been much, much less and of a completely different tone to before but I have struggled with it and I still do. I miss him badly and I feel so guilty about it. I am not a serial limerent. I have never encountered this before (I’m 41) and it has utterly rocked my world and caused me to question my marriage. How could this happen if things were right between us? I am extremely close to leaving. We don’t have kids but still I made a commitment and I do not want to set that aside lightly. I had hoped my limerence would die down over these last 6 months or so and it maybe has a tiny bit but not a lot. My brain is still addled with thoughts of him.
He is taking some time off work now. I am not likely to see him at work for weeks if not months and possibly more depending on what he has to do. I am taking that time to turn our now infrequent contact into no contact but I’m worried. I’m worried that this will never completely go away. I will have opportunities to change my job (a job I love and am good at) and I wonder if taking one of these opportunities is the right thing.
So I’m interested in whether people think limerence can ever go away or can it only ever be managed like any other addiction? Will it die down only to be reignited on his return? His feelings for me seem to be gone so it must be possible, right? Unless it was never mutual in the first place.
My past LO’s—a part of me still cares about them, but those old limerence feelings are long gone. Sometimes it takes a while, though. My last big one took several years to die off, and that’s even with hostility between us keeping us NC. Nowadays, though, it’s all gone.
Hi DomO
Welcome to LwL!
I did the same thing as you and just followed this site and read as much as I could before I posted anything. I am in my 40’s too and Limerence just hit me out of the blue for the first time about a year and a half ago.
Feels like some other worldly being took possession of our minds and bodies. right?
So many wonderful people here that are at different stages in their Limerence, so you can get some great advice or they can just lend an ear if that’s what you need.
It seems that you are fairly early in your LE (limerence Episode) so it might take a bit for you to actually step back and take a look at what is really going on.
Right now you’re probably just trying to clear though the fog, especially when your LO abruptly exited and that’s when your feelings for him escalated I bet.
We have all been there.
I will, if I may, give you my opinion. (my opinion only)
You didn’t mention if you and SO are happy?
There are some who’s marriages are at the end and are looking for something else but from what I gather from most people it really isn’t the reason for Limerence, can be a bit of a catalyst but I do believe there is a lot more to it than just an unhappy marriage.
You also said that something happened to LO’s spouse and he snapped out of the madness…so you now know where his priorities lay.
I think maybe that was a good thing, as you will probably get to realize, Limerence can steer people into doing things that they profoundly regret later.
What really helped me in the beginning was going NO CONTACT I know this is very hard and since he is a co-worker probably impossible, but try low contact if you can. I can honestly say that was the hardest but most beneficial for me, it gave me the opportunity to take a step back and look at Limerence for what it really was.
If you have read any of my posts here you know I’m in therapy and I’m on quite the profound journey of self discovery. It’s truly amazing!
I do believe that Limerence has NOTHING to do with your feelings for your LO but EVERYTHING to do with how you feel about yourself.
So, to answer your question.
Yes… on all of it.
I am managing it right now, I’m getting to the root of WHY I fell into Limerence.
It has most definitely died down and I’m working towards never having it ignite again. If you get to the root of it, it won’t.
Can it go away?
I believe we are on this journey to understand and discover what we are lacking in ourselves.
Once that work is done, yes.
Anna,
I need time to “digest” and test your belief here: “I do believe that Limerence has NOTHING to do with your feelings for your LO but EVERYTHING to do with how you feel about yourself.”
Base on my romantic/LE experiences, I do agree LE has A LOT to do with what one truly needs at the time of onset and with how one feel about oneself. But the word “EVERYTHING’ is too exclusive for me.
First-sight Glimmer is related to one’s instinctual drive (Fisher, Tunnov) and it has something to do with particular LOs. What I have struggled before and now is that knowing LO is “wrong” for me (while not as bad as a Narc), with all sounding reasons, I still can’t get them out of my head sooner. Such an OCD-like obsession, I believe, has a lot to do with one’s past or some existing psychological conditions (eg. My OCD).
“NOTHING” also sounds a bit too exclusive. For different “LOs”, I had different feelings. A while ago, you said that LOs serves as a mirror to our buried needs or to help dig out something hidden within us, which I very much agree, which then means that different LO/MFF would drive out different parts of our Selfs during a “romantic”/LE experience.
Depressive LO5 often dragged me down to depression; Narc LO6 drove my buried anger towards Narc Mom and then punch his face (he was so like Mom). However, ET (despite his very disappointing flaws) helped pull out a lot of upbeat/positive stuff which I didn’t even know had existed inside me. With my own imaginations (also unaware I had the ability) of the Phantom (self-created or extracted out of my Self?) , my cptsd got mostly healed… totally unexpected.
I want to get over the LE completely, but don’t want to lose my imagination/creativity while firmly grounding in reality, bleak or illusively bright….
“I believe we are on this journey to understand and discover what we are lacking in ourselves.”
Totally agree with you here. An LE provides one a highly valuable opportunity to do self-discovery and self-growth work, which never ends anyway until one’s ultimate end… I hope every limerent here would seize the chance to learn more about Self.
💪 🫂
@Snow
Yes, I really need to stop using the term “Nothing to do with LO” and “Everything to do with you”
I also need to rein in my Therapy Oversharing.
Yes, I do believe that different LO’s will trigger different (shall we say sore spots) in us that I believe should give the Limerent person an opportunity to see what needs to be addressed within oneself.
Dr. Tom has created this safe space for us to come for information, share our stories and sometimes just to vent.
But everyone is different, people become Limerent for all sorts of reasons.
I know 100% why it happened to me and I have come to realize that I’ve been trying to push my own agenda here way too far. I say to myself “why can’t they see what’s wrong?’
How utterly self-centered I’ve been.
I feel like I owe the group an apology for that.
I wish each and everyone of you the best of luck moving forward with your journey through Limerence.
~Anna
Anna,
I did not mean to argue with you at all in my previous message, just wanted to discuss with you about our possible LE’s roots, since we had similar childhood background, and our therapists are similar in dealing with our cptsd impacts. Therefore, I highly appreciated your “therapy sharing”, because I did not really tell my therapists about my intense LE — too embarrassed to reveal. The first snobby one knew a little bit about it and moralized it, but we did not go into it deeply. I don’t know whether they knew about LE concept, I was unable to ask such “non-existent” question.
“Yes, I do believe that different LO’s will trigger different (shall we say sore spots) in us that I believe should give the Limerent person an opportunity to see what needs to be addressed within oneself.”
I agree with you on this at least for our two cases. I also see its truth, at least partial, in some other cases presented here. but not every limerent speculates his or her cases with your lenses, the sharing of which would point out another possibility or direction for those who otherwise might not have thought about such a psychotherapeutic approach.
No need to apology, just tell us how you’ve benefited from you and your therapist’s method. It’s not “self-centered”. Those whose case does not align with yours would just move on to other posts; and those who understand what you say would benefit a great deal in their LE recovering journey.
I so appreciate your occasional input here, which helped me understand the impacts of my “core damaging” in childhood and how they affected my LE.
Stay and share your LE recovering journey with us when you get some spare time…
Sliding into your chat to say I agree with Snow here, Anna. Your contributions are very much valued and there won’t be a single person here wants you to apologise.
Put that self doubt goblin back in the box!
There will always be differences to our stories and our perspectives on limerence, but debating them is the beauty of this place.
Heaven knows I realise LwL can be a time hoover, but please try to stay with us and chat when you have a sec.
Hope you’re still enjoying the winter weather there.
Hi Anna,
no, please keep sharing! These are important insights, of course we all know that everyone is different, there’s no need to apologize for anything!
I think what you write here is very valuable, please don’t stop.
Anna, just popping in to agree with Snow, LaR and Mila on every point!
What you speak is very valid and helpful.
Anna
I have been reading your story since you first started posting. Everyone seemed to be welcoming you and helping you with your limerence so I stayed on the sidelines. But I would add myself on the list of people here that encourage you to stay and share. We all help each other. It’s been 2 1/2 years for me, and I still have the help of the community here when I take two steps back and falter. Limerence can be like cancer; unrelenting.
Hi Anna, me too !
I gain a lot from all your posts and insights from your therapy journey! Thank you. So sorry, no you can’t go yet …😉
Hi DoMo. Welcome.
I have been in the same boat. Periodically, we used to have warm interactions, followed by cold ones. So, unlike your case where you had a constant period of warm interactions, followed by an abrupt ending, we had the hot – cold – hot – cold cycle. Part of me thinks LO did this on purpose, but who knows what LO thinks.
Needless to say, this uncertainty keeps the limerence fire burning. It can very well be the case that LO suddenly “pulls the plug”, and this change in dynamics becomes hard to take.
I would still recommend going NC, if you can. This will really help you in the long term.
Whether limerence goes away ever on not, I am still trying to figure this one out. For quite some time, I was not seeking LO, and thought I am making good progress. However, one recent LO exposure, and I am back to feeling sad.
This period of your LO not coming to work should help you manage your emotions.
All the best!
Hi DOMO,
the question of all questions.
I‘m on my third LE (or mainly out of it), and I cannot answer this with surety. While I also think that limerence is something that has to do with myself alone, I don’t think it‘s something bad and has to be torn out. It seems to be part of my personality, or let’s say, the good, alive, loving part of limerence is. The problems arise when it slides down into obsession and bad feelings.
I‘m not limerent anymore for my first LOs and hardly at all for the current one, but when I listen inside me, I know there are still traces, it’s nothing that was eradicated completely. Also, that would be weird, since I’m not a computer where you can just delete information. These LEs were part of my life. I still can feel the old neuronal pathways when I think hard about it, but I can easily decide not to follow them. So, it’s something that could be switched on again, I guess. But now it’s in my power to decide if I want it switched on.
Having said that and believing it, that’s easy for me because two of my LOs left my work, I’m not exposed to them anymore. But my first LO is still around, and he‘s the one I feel most that I couldn’t get limerent for anymore- I still can feel some of the old attraction sometimes, but I have seen too much of his bad sides now. So it’s not always a bad thing to have LOs sticking around, reality sometimes helps seeing them in a neutral to negative way.
Your case is a tough one since there was mutual disclosure. Can I tell you that I think it’s natural and necessary to have a time of grief now. You had these emotions and hope and attachment to him, now it’s severed, and of course you are grieving about it.
I’m neither sure about your marriage nor leaving your job. The pain and bad feeling can be so bad that one would go to all lengths to stop it, and to cut something off – job, marriage – might seem like a relief. I don’t know if you are in the right state of mind to decide that now, though.
If you are otherwise happy and fulfilled in your job, I wouldn’t be rash here, as I wouldn’t about a marriage with kids.
Could be that this a wake up call and your chance to see that you are not living the life you want to live! But you have to be sure about that. Limerence and grief can distort that.
I wish you to feel better soon, Dancing on my own!
Hi Dancing,
I think an ember will always be there, in the sense that whatever triggered the glimmer in you will always be there. But, it is possible to get over limerence and have that ember as little more than a warm memory.
One of the decisive things, though, is how the limerent experience plays out. In your case, a shock for LO snapped him out of the fantasy and forced him to focus on reality. For you, the fantasy was snatched away without notice. Even if your rational mind knows that the fantasy was not a purposeful part of your life and had no real future (as you both have SOs), being “robbed” of your supply will inevitably cause withdrawal pain and loss. Unfinished business and uncertainty, and loss of hope, all bundled together into psychological distress. You didn’t make a choice, it was made for you.
I think the best way forwards is to make that decisive choice for yourself now. Decide that you are going to learn from this experience, but move on from it. You are going to focus on purposeful goals that will help you get closer to an ideal future, and leave behind the romantic fantasy that was really just a diversion from your main life quest, but that taught you something important about yourself and your psychological vulnerabilities.
Basically, work on cultivating a recovery mindset.
Good luck!
Hi DomO,
Short answer is yes it can die.
Of 3 LEs (in 20 years) 2 are 100% extinguished. There is absolutely nothing left. If I had to write a list of “100 people I have to see before I die” I dont’ think either of them would make the top half, or even at all.
– LO1 (maybe 2.5 years) I had like 1.5 years of NC, then contact again an I felt nothing
– LO3 (4 months) was a colleague, no disclosure and I think no mutuality, triggered I think by my fathers death – and I literally snapped out of it one day and felt absolutely nothing, there was almost no fade out
The longer answer is probably closer to Dr L’s – there was none or no significant mutuality to LO1 and LO3. Where there is, and some sort of mutuality or barriers, it is harder in my experience and my impression also so for most others.
LO2 was someone I dated, did a classic DA dump on me, then (…blabla, not relevant to your case), but decisions were repeatedly made by her, and it took years for me to move on. I recently had a relapse due I think to mid-life crisis (this is now 19 years later), and have actually re-initiated contact to try and get some control on my feelings.
Finally, don’t leave your partner due to limerence. Limerence is all about you, and will definitely fade to at most not very much. If you leave them do it because you can fundamentally identify what is wrong in the relationship or what it doesn’t give you, and you have a clear idea of what you want. at a minimum i would definitely say try to write that down and wait at least a few months
To be blunt, it could be a midlife crisis, maybe due to not having children (I am just saying this as it is statisictically a common cause, not implying anything, I know many people actively choose not to, and many people had very traumatic attempts to have chidlren), maybe a trauma, it could really be due to your relationship, it could just be pure bad luck. Many people here see no reason it hit them, a set of us can trace it fairly clearly to a cause.
Dancing on My Own,
Yes, for me, many of my LE’s have died. Absolutely died. To the point where I’m no longer enthralled, attracted or even interested, in the former LO.
No idea how it happens, but it does. For me, they’ve dissipated, often without anyone else to take their place.
Usually I go no contact and do a lot of self-care, and tell myself to be patient. I keep a journal and celebrate a little when my first thought isn’t about my LO. I am forgiving and patient of myself, like I would be if I were getting over a bad flu.
I see my limerences as a bout with an illness. They are incredibly painful and awful for me. But, I try to forgive myself. And, I do know they have an end. But, I have to make it end. I can’t go back to “using”. I have to go no contact or very, very limited contact. Then, they die out.
Good luck 🙂
Thanks to everyone who has replied. It has been helpful. I am trying to be purposeful. So far this year I have thrown myself into work and achieved a fair bit of success and trained for and competed in a significant sporting event. I just feel like it is taking a long time to make progress through the fog. Some days are ok. Others I am on autopilot mode.
The rational part of me is desperate for the answer to my question to be “yes” but my limerent brain wouldn’t mind an ember to keep it warm.
Hi DOMO,
Many great answers here, providing useful data points.
I am one who got over limerence. LO is still a friend, but definitely no limerence. I don’t “track” LO, no intrusive thoughts, etc. I see LO maybe once a month – we make an effort to catch up as the friendship is pretty good.
It took about 18 months to run its course (this is right on the dot). I had to radically change my life to get to the point where I could let it go. I left my SO and let go of LO at the same time. They felt like different parts of the same thing, two sides to a coin.
I now am dating someone new and I have thanked the gods many times it isn’t limerence. But I do tend to spend quite a bit of time thinking about this person. But not obsessively. No intrusive thoughts. I enjoy life perfectly fine when they are not around. I miss them in a normal way. My emotions are developing at a normal pace and progression. I do notice I am quite obsessed with HOW I feel for them though. In no way do I think it is “inferior” to limerence, I am very happy with the relationship, but whereas limerence left no doubt, this non-limerence affair has me wondering how much I care. A lot. But enough? Limerence may have unnaturally stretched the range of emotions. Non-limerence is like a regular guy competing against Superman in a deadlift competition.
Interestingly, I tell myself (comfortingly) that if I have to break up with this person and get over them – I know I can. Because I got over limerence. The bar is now set very high (see Superman analogy). I can definitely get over someone I am not limerent about since I got over someone I was limerent about. I don’t know if this is a healthy or unhealthy way of thinking, but it just seems to logically follow.
Hi Superpower me,
I am interested in your story about getting over limerence but still being friends with the person (for the obvious reason that this is the outcome I seek). If you feel able to say more, could you explain the steps you took to overcome limerence for this person whilst still coming out of it friends? And why did you feel the need to give up the LO as well as your SO? Obviously please only answer anything you are comfortable with.
I am encouraged by your story and especially that you’ve found someone new where you feel the relationship is healthier and you can enjoy the person but without getting limerent. I hope this keeps up for you!
Hello Lim-a-rant,
I suspect my limerence was somewhat telling me something needed to happen with my relationship with SO: either stay and work on it or go. I felt the limerence was pair-bonding with someone else when my pair-bond with my SO was impaired. I always felt it was never about LO as a person, they were so unsuitable it was laughable I was in such tortures over them. LO was part of my journey re SO and when that ended … the dynamic with LO shifted. While the limerence is intoxicating – I knew it was not healthy, it was an involuntary obsession over an illusion. It also felt a bit tainted, mixed up with me leaving my SO and I don’t like ethical ambiguities. To be honest, this current relationship (my first after breaking up) has shown me I have a lot to work on to have healthy relationships. But that is not what you are interested in. You want to know how I stayed friends with LO.
LO and other people supported me through my break up with SO. There were times we veered much closer … I considered a declaration. But apart from my hesitation for many many reasons the one that finally was the nail in the coffins was when I realized LO was hung up on an ex of their’s. So, CERTAINTY.
I almost felt like I made a spiritual break from my LO. They knew it, for sure. But we LC for awhile. That helped. But always kind and polite whenever we chatted. And it became a fondness, with none of the undercurrents. Me getting interested in new people helped as well, even if those did not work out into dating even. Just … finding someone else interesting was good to break those last strings attachments.
I think I do have a TENDENCY toward obsession in relationships though. I can feel some of it developing for the person I am currently dating. But I am very wary of it, I hope being aware and careful will keep it from developing into limerence. I think loving someone should be a choice, not involuntary. I also think limerence makes us throw our standards out the window. And boundaries with an LO? Is that even possible?
Hi Superpower Me,
Thanks so much for replying and being so honest. For now, I am marking this for future attention / reply. Should this Coffeehouse thread close (which it might, soon), I will put the reply in the new Christmas coffeehouse. It’d be good to chat ☕️ keep doing all the good stuff you’re doing with this new person – you sound really self-aware, which is a great start!
I think I have a Limerence related example here. My so-called glimmery friend is a Trump supporter. I won’t say exactly where I live, but suffice to say we don’t even live in the United States, so I really don’t understand her fascination with this man. She is a full-on right wing conspiracy nut, but yet we actually get along very well. My politics are moderately centre-left, yet I probably lean slightly centre-right on some social issues. For that reason, I can actually find some common ground with my glimmery friend on some political issues, particularly issues pertaining to extreme wokeism. However, I do think that one of the main reasons why I never became limerent for this woman (other than the fact she’s married) are her extreme political views. I’ve honestly wrestled with how I can be a friend to someone with views I find so repugnant, but somehow we manage to steer clear of politics most of the time and just enjoy ourselves with all of our friends. I sometimes do have to wonder though why she flirted with me so much given the fact that I’m so obviously a “libtard” in her mind.
My LO is on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum from me. He is also a good friend. The difference in political views enhances the fantasy – our love could overcome even deep political divides (eye roll).
No, this is far worse than you realize. Trump is on a revenge and scorched earth tour, the political appointees are far smarter and nastier than you know (Stephen Miller’s family cut ties with him long ago, for example) and we have neo-Nazis and KKK members reappearing in public.
I don’t know what happened in the UK with Brexit, but one of the top Google searches in the US has been “can I change my vote” which indicates that people put exactly ZERO effort into their choices for candidates.
The choice was between a prosecutor who had been elected to various offices over the years and a felon.
PLUS women now only have rights to their bodies in a few states – rather than it being a HUMAN RIGHT. It’s not a hypothetical for us, even though it is for men. No one is demanding that they give blood or are mandated to donate a kidney or lobe of their liver or even that any male, anywhere, at any time, is either forced to have a vasectomy or be denied one.
The new regime is also combing social media and voter registrations to identify federal employees who are insufficiently loyal to Trump. Overlooking that they swear an oath to uphold the Constitution.
Pray for Ukraine, as well as the US.
As I recall , the top google search after the vote for Brexit was „what is the EU“ followed by „what is Brexit“ 😆so, not much effort before the voting there either
Yeah, as ever, most people just vote on instinct.
I honestly knew very little about the actual functioning of the EU before the vote. My analysis amounted to “I really like travelling in Europe, have lots of European friends and colleagues, and it seems mad to disrupt trade with our nearest neighbours.”
Just as emotional a basis for voting as “We want British sovereignty” if I’m honest.
Well yeah, I’m also culpable of voting like that in my country. I generally feel I know too little about politics and should inform myself more, and it’s all so complex when you dig deeper. I get confused and depressed, and in the end go by instinct like every other idiot.
It certainly looks like “scorched earth” is likely. I suppose the conflict of visions is:
1) Trump is a dictator who has violated every norm and law and is now going to indulge his worst narcissistic excesses.
versus
2) Trump was falsely smeared, prosecuted, impeached and undermined throughout his first term (and afterwards), and this time he is going to clean house of the corrupt officials that impeded his democratic mandate.
Both sides think their vision is self-evidently correct.
While I’m pontificating, another thought on Brexit. It has harmed the UK economy, but in part I think that is because the people implementing it were against it.
Dominic Cummings (a bit of a notorious figure in the UK, who was the power behind the throne of Brexit and Boris Johnson’s win) had a vision of a UK freed from the sclerotic EU bureaucracy, and able to form new trade deals with the US and Japan and maybe even BRICs economies. He also wanted to invest heavily in UK science and R&D. I’m not sure how realistic that vision was, but it was at least a feasible plan to break the UK out of a decade-long economic slump.
Instead, we got a “how can we minimise the damage?” approach to Brexit that kept the EU central to our economic plans. A classic British fudge. Out, but not decisively out and pursuing new opportunities. Out, but trying to keep some of the benefits and lessen the worst of the costs.
Looked at now, both the EU and UK have continued to stagnate, while the US has continued to grow (under both Trump and Biden).
Predictably, either Remain or “proper” Brexit would have been better choices than what we ended up with – politically grudging Brexit.
Trump inherited the Obama economy. For an example of the Trump economy, see what he did during the pandemic. Including advocating for ivermectin, chloroquine and bleach.
Biden inherited a mess. Since then, it’s improved at a steady rate.
But sure, 100% tariffs are paid by the country of origin (rolls eyes). Wait until they see their grocery bills. Because either we are going to pay it directly for the imported food, or we’re going to pay it indirectly in subsidies to farms in the US (conglomerates and individually owned). It IS going to hurt those who can least afford it. Including veterans – now the idea has come about to dismantle the VA.
Meanwhile, listening to people complain about the price of filling up their $80,000 truck – that they never use to tow – is ridiculous.
Anyway, a discussion for another board or at least another time.
Good luck to us all.
Well said. Something we can all agree on!
When it came to screwing over Feds, nobody in recent memory can match Obama. He froze Federal salaries for 3 years.
If Feds had received a typical raise over that period, I’d be making at least $1000/month more in retirement than I am now.
Yeah, Obama was great alright…
And, if Trump screwed up the economy, Biden took the ball and ran with it, right up to 9+% inflation. When it came to the economy, Biden made Jimmy Carter almost look good.
Well, now that a single party controls the executive, legislative, and, ostensibly, the judicial branches, if things don’t get better (however you define that) then we’ll all easily know who to blame. Because we sure won’t be able to blame the Democrats.
CSC,
That’s true.
But, the Dems have sold their souls to identity politics and I don’t know if there is anyone in the party capable of turning that around.
it doesn’t matter what the dems espouse. they’re not in control. the ones in control get to try to do better. i’m just hoping, in case they aren’t able to do better, that we all still have a vote, when it comes time to make a different choice, next time around. and, that our country hasn’t been incinerated, or washed out to sea.
This could be something, but I think in practice most trade deals and supply chains are based on fundamentals. Trade volumes feed into an economies performance, but are only a part of it, and increased trade frictions then only affect a part of that. It doesn’t matter that much e.g. how the cheese or shellfish trade balance is composed – are we sending too much cheddar? should we be sending more artisan cheese over? The individual tragedies of these businesses or fisherman closing is not that relevant long term to the countries future.
The british economy is fundamentally driven by the quality and focus of the education system churning out e.g. many brilliant scientists and artists in the broadest sense, and not that many engineers or software programmers, being ‘the’ international financial hub, a whole bunch of domestic law around property rights and many other things, and a intrinsic laissez faire approach to business and wages. Brexit can change the long term direction, but I think more fundamental is that all policy pushes in the same direction, or it pulls in different directions, contradicts and cancels each other out.
The chinese understand far better than probably anyone else in the world apart from perhaps the South Koreans about how interlinked all decisions are, and how to focus an entire people around it. Britain and much of the west is locked in a hugely complex set of decisions about what we want to be and we are failing to agree. There is a fundamental problem sharing a currency and trade law, but having differing economic goals. Add on to this cultural differences and diverging views on the way forward, and the result is lethergy around the future. The new right understand this, so even though they are incoherent, they can get away with the strong man act.
So i agree that Brexit might not have been ‘fully implemented’, but I guess my view is that it is that it is being more of a muddle, and not an explicit compromise, that is the issue. The breakdown of the ‘social contract’ in the west has been a rather technical concern for a long time in policy circles, but I think the impacts are only just coming out now.
As a ‘Brefugee’ on the continent, and an ex policy wonk before I left, the whole brexit thing was really quite interesting.
Of the Brits I know here, more voted leave than remain! I am lucky to have a couple of separate streams of friends and family, mostly staunch remainers (or of course european), but one group who i discuss politics with a lot are remainers (inc. me) and leavers, and a mix of nationalities including brits.
What continually shocks me is the absolute hatred and disregard of remainers for leavers. My leaver friends are highly intelligent people, with very clear reasons for their vote, mostly on a very poorly informed basis (i.e. the Sun), just like most remainers (no, reading the Guardian/NY Times/Süddeutsche etc. doesn’t mean you understand how the world works). The revealed arrogance of many remainers, who themselves have almost no concept of the EU, trade law, economics etc. or in fact even basic british institutions still shocks me. Nothing has really panned out as forecast, and all of those grounds were not the reason’s leavers voted the way they did anyway.
Until remainers learn some humility, very purposefully engage with the ‘new rights’ concerns, and learn to fight tooth and claw against lies being spread by the new right, I see very little hope. Smug fact checking is nothing more than patting oneself on the back. At the moment it feels more like a bunch of ostriches with their head in the sand. The rise of asia, the age of immigration, the age of the mega city, globalised trade and finance, aka the age of the polycrisis and climate change all offer huge opportunities, and huge risks, but the centre and left are mudlding through on a business as usual approach. The only positive I can take out of Trump winnign again, is that it might now start to become clear who existential the threat is.
Edmund Fawcetts history of Conservatism is a good quick recap of themes in conservative thought over the last 200 years, and clearly picks out the late 19th century streams of thought that are re-emerging.
*how existential
My commentary on the political landscape? I agree with Miss Terri Clark.
I Think The World Needs A Drink
https://youtu.be/OXE-vP15cug?si=WhSj9O8bcHokR6ne
Dr. L,
It is hard, indeed. My fear is really more for what will happen…to our planet. I am worried that with inept and corrupt people at the helm, the narrow slice of tolerable climate we exist within will dissolve. I do not believe all the people who voted for Trump are bad people. I believe many of them are stressed out people who made a poorly informed long-term decision. Like you say: It’s hard to make good decisions in a state of overarousal and stress.
I am, as I usually am, living in the gray area, instead of the black and white, right/left view. I am good at living in the gray area. I actually believe this is one reason I am chronic in limerence. I’m sensitive, thoughtful. Able to see beyond what is, into what might, or could be…to swim in the gray area….and to dream, of course.
The last time Trump was elected, I was upset, as well. Angry, yet not surprised. I decided that the real estate between my ears was not for sale, and not available to him or his loyalists. And this time, that thought has served me well. I believe that it is time to go within, to know…I am in this, but not of this. And I will not become this.
As I explore those ideas, I actually find it dovetails with this round of experience with limerence (LE #3). I am beginning to realize, it’s not that I need more hobbies, more friends, more social interaction, more anything. I don’t need more to feel secure. What I actually need — is to strip it all away, and face my SELF. I feel, at heart, this is why I am chronically limerent. I have not been alone, simply alone, with me. To the point where I do not understand the power of just…me.
The more I think about my limerence, the more I see: for many reasons — my self has never seemed enough. I have never believed I was secure, in my self. I distracted myself, I ran from myself, I allowed others to reflect my self, and I believed what they told me. I triangulated my idea of “me” based on their feedback…Now, I see…I need to go within, to my inner real estate…to understand that no matter what, I am strong enough to survive almost anything.
Instead of feeling demoralized, I feel determined. To go within, to a place none of our partisan factors can reach. A place where I am sovreign. It will be a good, good exercise. It will build much strength I need.
And that will help me in my aim to rein in my limerent predispositions, as well.
Well said CSC – I feel like that’s quite some self-discovery you documented right there!
thanks LaR. 🙂
I am doing everything I can, from within, to find a better path forward for myself…i am exhausted from my current LE and feeling very upset i let myself fall into it…i feel sad, and rejected. but, i must not give into those feelings. i have to find some way out, and if i can, try to prevent this in the future. simply shutting off my passion is not an option. but, building more inner strength is not mutually exclusive to being a passionate person. so…here goes…. :/
maybe it’ll be fun….
I got a bit of an update to something I think while seeming insignificant was a milestone for me. I have been kind of obsessing over some new musician (which you can probably tell by my other posts) Terri Clark.
I was playing Xbox last night and had my headphones on and her song “Better Things To Do” came on and I am singing along and LO thoughts tried to get in my head and I thought to myself while singing the chorus; “she’s his (the man she is seeing now) problem now, I’m done.” Let’s hope I am finally.
Better Things To Do — Terri Clark
https://youtu.be/h1ScBNkXaJk?si=DtHT0pjl0MeiuB7w
I’m usually a fairly level headed, rational person. My LE challenged all that. Limerence has taught me to better understand the irrational and politics is probably a close second to love and romance for having people lose their mind.
A few links inspired by recent comments and new arrivals:
– https://livingwithlimerence.com/blog-archive/ – All DrL’s blogs can be found here. Poke around and there’s likely a blog or two that address your question.
– https://livingwithlimerence.com/closure-is-an-illusion/ –
– https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-long-does-limerence-last/
– https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/ – IMO, an underappreciated article. At the time, I thought it was important for me to know. After getting beaten over the head with the question, “What would you do with the knowledge if you had it?” eventually, I believed that I didn’t need to know.
Even better, later on, I didn’t want to know. Say hello to closure!
Re ‘if only I knew’ …
At first for me it was the relentless horror of NOT knowing. But then you start to think, for someone in my situation, that ALL roads of knowing lead to very likely greater horrors. No good outcome.
Not knowing is the lesser horror.
That’s easy enough to write out now, but it hasn’t half been a journey to get there.
Clarification: that is only meant to apply to me, but many limerents in a relationship might relate.
I think for everyone there is a risk-reward calculation to look at. Everyone’s will vary, but limerence will be doing its crafty bit to skew the mental equation towards disclosure.
WRT: “The one who got away.” (TOWGA)
Try re-framing that as, “The one I got away from.”
It’s really good for people with dodgy LOs but it works OK for most LOs.
In the Pantheon of Exes, no one holds a higher place than TOWGA. Some people visit the shrine more than others. You can live there if you want to.
LE,
Thanks for the brilliant reframing, which is so needed here! Gosh, words can be such double bladed tool!
No one is the Pantheon of my exes deserved TOWGA, the LE created both framing TOWGA and TOIAF in ET at the same time, which has caused an internal war in me… When in the first mind framing, I felt regret and sad… in the 2nd, proud, strong, and wise…. That’s the ultimate war between the body and mind.
Why is it so hard to unite body and mind side in side in harmony❓And who is to say which is more important ⁉️
All is impermanent, we all shall lay in dust one day sooner or later… why do I care so much as if the life would indefinitely go on?
Or we need to pretend it will go on indefinitely?
I can identify both TOWGA and TOIGAF – but they are most definitely two different people.
Maybe if one day I can ever reconcile both things about the same person (as I feel, L.E., that you might have), that would be a solution of sorts.
LA,
The closest I have to a TOWGA is a girl from high school. I think she really liked me but I suffered from a bad case of insecurity. I thought if she knew the real me, she wouldn’t like me. Once we got to the point where she’d given up one, we became very good friends for several years.
Any girl who wanted to know me had to be crazy and I didn’t want to date a crazy girl. Grouch Marx said that he wouldn’t want to join a club that would have him as a member.
Getting past that took 7 years and an epiphany.
@Limerent Emiritus
haaaa! Oh my gosh, I love that. “the one I got away from”
That is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant!
“The one that got away” is the reason why there was an “one I got away from”. Regret and rejection are the power behind why I tried to live through someone else what I couldn’t in my past. What a horrible position I put her in. She couldn’t be who she wasn’t; what I wanted her to be.
Adam, You’re so kind to always consider for her and blame yourself first…
I was as selfish as a typical limerent and as a kid with cptsd…
Well Snowphoenix she didn’t ask to be a part of that debacle that I threw her into. So yes the fault is mine. My NC and defence of her person in this mess is my apology to her. I suffer the consequences, not her.
Adam,
Very noble of you for think and say so! 👏
I got away from the nature’s pull…
As often as not, it seems that it’s no so much a matter of trying to save them.
We want them to save us.
And, the adage of “You can’t save someone who doesn’t want to be saved.” applies as much to us as it does to them.
LE,
As far as I can remember (my feelings/thoughts), in all my previous romantic relations, I semi-consciously wanted to be “saved”, but none of “LOs” could do the job.
It was my own IMAGINATION of an idealized, surrogate parent that 90-95% saved me. So now Inhindsight , I can’t splash only black ink on my only authentic LE canvas. While making a fool of myself, my imagination — the Phantom, was activated, enlivened and powered upmost by LE and unexpectedly heal the cptsd condition that several therapists were unable to do for over a decade.
An old cliche — ONLY one’s Self can SAVE oneself! Glimmer (not obsessive LE yet) is just a fuse/catalyst, although for instinctual drives.
To Mars from Arizona
Alberto Ríos
1952 –
Saturday mornings were science fiction—
That is, on that day anything was possible.
We didn’t have to go to the movies for that,
Though when we did, we were introduced to ourselves
More than anything. Ourselves in rockets,
Ourselves taking chances, ourselves speaking to the universe.
Outside of the movies, we were still in them—
Our bikes were our rockets, our submarines, our jets.
But mostly, and first, our bikes were our horses
In this childhood West, a loyal, red Western Flyer
Taking me everywhere, up and down, fast and slow.
Only later did I understand it was my own legs
That did it all. My own legs and my arms to steer,
My own small, mighty lungs to shout—
A shout that would later become a song.
When they weren’t horses, when my legs were tired,
When the shouts calmed down into just talking,
We bike-riders would sit, and find in that talking
The gold we had been looking for, though we didn’t know it.
The gold was made of plans for Saturdays still to come—
We each had different ideas, but we all had them,
Speaking them confidently as if we were lions,
Deep-voiced and sure even in that quietude.
What would happen next was far away,
But even as we rested, something in us knew
We would catch the future no matter how fast it ran.
******
About this Poem
“This is a simple testament to our childhood and adult imaginations both, looking at how time allows us to see the same thing in more than one way. I grew up on the border, literally, but it was never one thing. This poem helps me to understand that the border wasn’t simply about geography, but about the border between today and tomorrow; between what we were doing and what we were going to be doing; the certainty of that hopeful and creative and powerful sensibility—‘I’ was in harmony with the bravado of ‘I am.’”
—Alberto Ríos
******
Imagination is a rocket that can take us off from the gravity of our reality. Should we let the rocket freely float in the zero-gravity universe or still come back to the weighty earth? 🐦🔥
Venetian Siesta
Joseph Millar
I know I’m getting away with a crime
stretched out on the couch
and listening to rain
making a hole in the afternoon
through which I can drift slowly away
for sleep is sometimes
just as delicious
as white polenta and grilled angle fish.
So I give up my hands,
my tears and my face,
the smells of tar,
damp rope and mud,
the late slanted light of November
rippling below on the gondola wood
and then I count backwards from 27
trying to pretend I’m Wallace Stevens
he of the freakish intellect
and the taste of a ruthless
wandering gourmet
who rummages in the mystical kitchen
in search of oranges and café espresso
or a blown glass peacock
or a Byzantine horse
cast in some delicate metal.
He speaks of the world,
how it’s changed by art
and bread you can’t eat
powdered with light
where someone is toasting
their mother’s health
and someone is writing a letter to death
which makes things beautiful
in its way
and also makes everyone the same
as laughter does
or the late autumn rain.
****
Today, it finally rained a bit after a long drought here; I did not change my pajama all day. Besides beating a couple of deadlines, I seriously thought about “writing a letter to [🐦🔥’s ashes] which makes things beautiful
in its way”….
The irony is that contemplating to extinguish such ❤️🔥 actually kindled the amber more… 😳
My “side chick” (neighborhood cat) has shown up last night and today and jumped up in my lap. Our cat came home from prowling last night while she was in my lap and I had to scream for my wife to let her in before I had a literal cat fight in my lap. 🙂 Ill never learn with women.
Tonight on “Untold Stories of the ER:”
A man is brought by his wife in with a severe groin injury incurred when a “cat fight” erupted in his lap. ER staff are surprised to learn the term “cat fight” was literal and the wounds were made by real cats.
I wake up this morning to check on something, open the front door to a small gray & white cat I’ve never seen before sitting in the walkway to the front porch. As soon as I tried to open the screen door it ran off. I think I’ve found why the food dish outside is empty sometimes even when my side chick isn’t around.
Also I had my wife read your above posted and she literally laughed out loud. “Wouldn’t be the strangest thing I’ve taken you to the ER for.”
Back when we were dating, LO #2 got a cat and named her Emily. Emily was a real sweetie. We got along really well. LO #2 was more of a dog person so she didn’t really know cats very well.
One day, I rolled up a wad of tape and tossed it on the floor. Emily started batting it around. Sometimes, it would stick to her paws and she’d dance around trying to knock it off. She was having fun.
LO #2 got the bright idea of hanging a clothes pin on Emily’s fur. No skin, just fur. Emily freaked out because she couldn’t get the clothes pin off. I caught Emily and took the clothes pin off. I gave LO #2 the WTF? look and she came back with the My Bad look.
I was sitting in the corner holding Emily trying to calm her down. LO #2 came over to apologize. Emily’s legs started churning like the Roadrunner on my arm. By the time I got her off, I was bleeding from some pretty deep scratches. LO #2, the nurse, bandaged my wrist.
When I took off the bandage, I began to notice people looking at me and my wrist. They thought it was a suicide attempt. It kind of did.
My boss called me in, asked what happened, and if I was ok. I told him about Emily. He said Emily was a pretty mean cat. I told him the cat was fine, it was my girlfriend that was clueless.
Snow,
Popping over here to coffeehouse as the Entanglements post is now closed (it must have been all that unruly drinking and singing about corn in the saloon).
“I’m still chewing Schreiber’s article with a heavy heart.”
I am not sure of the article you mean. L.E. posts Schreiber links regularly. I know there was one in an exchange involving me and you a couple of weeks ago. What is the gist of it that leaves the heart heavy?
Good for you for just letting your mind do its thing over the weekend and not trying to fight it. Exactly the suggestion you would give to me. I know it can be painful though.
I had a look back at my long draft. I feel like maybe I broke some of it up and put it in smaller posts, as some of it was about my extended familial situation etc which we discussed already.
The bit related to T, F etc is below as a response to something you posted. I may be repeating myself and please bear in mind I wrote these bits before your updates near the end of last week. I understand some of the nuances about T for you, from what you said. I also wonder whether if you can make peace with your T a bit, think that it has some useful function and try and work out what that is, maybe you could feel overall calmer. This feels much the same as if the other way round, you urging me (a natural T) to keep embracing and making room for my F’s insight too. I am not saying accept everything T says uncritically – but the brain’s thinking capacity must have some use. You formulated it yesterday as ‘Stoic side of T’ – maybe this is a helpful formulation for you of a part of T you can appreciate?
Anyway this is the previously drafted bit:
“T side can solve a lot of logical matters, but our human emotions are not logical a lot of times. S, F, P’s voices should be listened to carefully and intuitively, which come from our Unconscious — curbing/balanceing our T mind.”
Yes, agree. I see what you mean that T can make the mind ‘robotic’ and inhibit F (I recognise it in me at times, but I am not strongly towards T, nearer the middle on the tests). It is interesting that you equate T with Narcissus for yourself. Can you speak more kindly of your T side and what it adds to your life? I think it’s (T in general, the collective T) not *all* bad. Perhaps as you say, your COO background has quite a big shaping effect in how you regard the T/F balance. I understand that as much as I am able without the lived experience.
“Still, I like a very flexible mind that is open and ready to all possibilities.”
Now we’re talking!!
LaR,
“Popping over here to coffeehouse as the Entanglements post is now closed (it must have been all that unruly drinking and singing about corn in the saloon).”
If that blog/house is not closed, it might have been turned to “Breech-Beach Entanglement”, which is inaccurate of what limerents are truly after — “Limerence on the Beach” — the name of a new drink (Vodka based accompanied by a variety of international exotic fruit juice), for you a new LE barmen to invent… I need it for Thanksgiving 🍹
“I am not sure of the article you mean. L.E. posts Schreiber links regularly. I know there was one in an exchange involving me and you a couple of weeks ago. “
I just put up the link in my previous post today. Which one are you referring?
“What is the gist of it that leaves the heart heavy?”
Schreiber’s article made me recall a lot of details of what happened in my sad childhood and later failed relationships, which still saddens me beyond words nowadays. His description and analysis were so accurate on the targets as if they were written based on my personal case… As said before, I don’t remember logistic details but can recall my fragmented feelings and sensations scarily well (otherwise, there would be no cptsd). If it was something horrible, then my brain/psyche would push them out immediately…. So I still don’t have any memory of some horrible events, but the impact was/is there.
“Good for you for just letting your mind do its thing over the weekend and not trying to fight it. Exactly the suggestion you would give to me. I know it can be painful though.”
I feel tremendous relief when I was able to truly let my mind wander its own direction without judging while expecting any feelings could turn up. When I did not, trying to affirm any ideation/thought/feeling, nightmares appeared and psychosomatic reactions came with concrete evidence.
“I also wonder whether if you can make peace with your T a bit, think that it has some useful function and try and work out what that is, maybe you could feel overall calmer.”
My T was trained by my Narc Mom and COO ideology, quite different from your kind; it almost removes all humanistic and F elements. It made me so unappreciative human/love/LE affections in my previous friendship and relationship and subsequently lost important ones. This T made myself feeling like a robot, in comparison even with LE ghosts here.
“I am not saying accept everything T says uncritically – but the brain’s thinking capacity must have some use. “
Again, in my case, thinking capacity has inhabited F capacity gravely in the past. Remember I said my most favored motherly therapist (had to relocate) could not get me describe my feeling? Besides nonstop thoughts/wills, I did not know what feelings were supposed to BE back then.
“You formulated it yesterday as ‘Stoic side of T’ – maybe this is a helpful formulation for you of a part of T you can appreciate?”
Yes, I’ll keep Stoic side of T, which means to know and be aware constantly what IS within one’s control and what is Not, so as to not worry about “futile” matters, e.g. what ET might be thinking nowadays, forgetting or remembering me at all? Or what’s realistic concerns and what is fanciful (or paranoid) imagination (always double bladed) that serves as dopamine hit (or nightmare trigger)? How much could/should I feed myself the former each day?
“It is interesting that you equate T with Narcissus for yourself. Can you speak more kindly of your T side and what it adds to your life?”
The T equating with Narcissus in one means:
1. Automatically wanting in control all the time, e.g. other people related/interacted with, or matters of small or big, concrete or abstract, tangible or intangible;
2. Holding tight one’s pride and hating admitting errors made and failures; self censuring, self-berating and self-shaming one’s mistakes and vulnerabilities,
3. Pursuing to be perfect in all things one does in macro or micro scopes at daily basis, which is annoying to others, wasting of one’s own time and energy, and causing unstoppable anxiety no matter when or where. (I see it in Mom and my old self)
“Perhaps as you say, your COO background has quite a big shaping effect in how you regard the T/F balance. I understand that as much as I am able without the lived experience.”
Yes. I want to KILL all the inhuman T that was pushed or ingrained into my psyche since birth; which excluded almost all the F in the West. Knowing about COO intellectually is one matter, living through and “surviving” it (as a normal human being by Western standards) is a totally different ballgame. Imagine zero romanticism in your life? Orwell’s “1984” is not enough to capture what the modernized Big Brother is doing over there — the mental prisons are built in its Great Fire Wall nowadays.
“Still, I like a very flexible mind that is open and ready to all possibilities.”
Now we’re talking!!”
Since 10, I have been partially “corrupted” in mind (unable in body) by the Western classical literature, so had a much easier time to build up my own “no man’s land” ever since I “escaped” from that mental prison. Many of my COO fellowmen are still living in that invisible T “prison” although their bodies are blindly wandering in the West now. They could never glimmer for me even if they look godlike…
In this LwL town, I’m learning more about insightful western humanities… so I could see my old self more clearly, by comparison… Sitting in an isolated room, one would not have an identity. One learns about one’s selves and even evolve through relational dynamics, which makes LE, especially failed one, an irreplaceable chance to discover, renew, and reinvent Thy Self — much, much larger gains than obtaining a LO.
Snow,
There’s another popular cocktail (here, anyway) called a ‘Slow Comfortable Screw’ (slow = sloe gin, comfortable = Southern Comfort, screw = screwdriver – vodka and orange juice). See also – ‘Slow comfortable screw against a wall’ with added Galliano float. It would knock me out. Anyway your creativity made me think of what the ‘limerent variant’ would be. I came up with ‘Long uncomfortable blue’ … but we might need to switch up some colours or ingredients.
Do you get extra time off for good behaviour around Thanksgiving? Hope you have something fun planned.
I know that not me nor any Westerner can even imagine the COO upbringing. We can listen and learn if wanted, but we can never know. If my intuitions are right about your where your COO is, in real life I encounter quite a lot of people from there, grappling hard with their relationship with the Western mindset. Some want to integrate into it (but it often takes a long time to know how), others seem to outright reject it. I know the kind you mean who live in the West but with no exposure to the Western literature, arts, tv etc. I am not saying it is wrong – to each their own – but it must be challenging to live life like that. I know you may not want to give exact details but roughly how many years or what proportion of your life have you lived in the West?
I think we just accept that the T vs F thing is always going to be so different between a Westerner and an Easterner just because of nature and nurture. I come quite in the middle between T and F on the tests. When I am dealing with myself more T, when dealing with others more F. I like having both within me. I can cycle between the two. I do get your point that T can turn us (including me) robotic if we don’t watch and counterbalance it. And I get that our very different backgrounds mean your relationship with your T and F will differ from mine. We may have completely different terms of reference / worldviews about it that make it impossible to ever quite understand how the other feels.
And that’s cool. All we can do is our best. I am really glad that you find LwL and others’ stories a vehicle for learning and self-growth. I do too. I can always get a nugget of useful information from the posts on here. It’s so much more interesting and real than social media!
I hope no more tigers for you to contend with today.
LA,
I love that drink!
In the 80s, I really liked Singapore Slings. I ordered a Singapore Sling and the bartender asked if I wanted to try a SCS instead.
After the second one, I jokingly asked her to marry me.
Hi LaR,
I also popped over the the coffeehouse as you raised interesting questions on the entanglements thread (which is now closed).
“Bewitched,
That’s very encouraging that you felt like that. Did he also seem calm and less frenetic in the interaction?”
Our most recent interaction was virtual – email. He emailed about a work query, with 4 or 5 other people copied. In his reply he included a screenshot of is screen which happened to include a picture his young child. So I replied about work and the child (difficult to ignore a cute child, I felt that I was being polite, really). He took it offline between the two of us and told me some cute updates. I am not sure if he does this with other people – he’s not a communicative person, so I guess not. But then, I am a woman, so maybe I get different treatment when it comes to men my age and their kids. I do love kids….
What I mused on was whether or not this interaction happening is in any way connected to the story that I told you before about this particular child and their genesis (as you see I’m covering my tracks here, somewhat)?
This did not cause me to muse too much, or dwell overly on it, although I did give it a little bit of thought. In the past it would have set me off in a tornado of rumination. This time, I was just happy that we were able to have a ‘normal’ conversation about something personal without it becoming horrendously complicated by inhibition and debilitating shyness (on both sides but certainly more on his side. – Although always with the proviso that he is not the best communicator at the best of times, so that could be an alternative explanation for a lot of what happens). The thing is, the latter reinforces that he is not the guy for me. It also makes me feel happy that I can share his enjoyment of his child with him, admire his little kid and make him feel good. I like making other people feel good and I really like LO a lot, always will, I think. I am interested in our ‘take’ on this LaR?
RE:
“Did you ever do conscious deprogramming work or did he ‘deprogramme himself’ in effect, in the end?”
I never did the course because I didn’t want to devalue him. And even if I ended up that he wasnt for me (because of areas where he is sub-par compared with my SO), that was no shade on him. He’s lovely. If there was a nuclear holocaust and all other humans got wiped out, or even if only my favourite human, that is my SO, did – I’d happily shack up with him :))
RE:
“In the autumn I was saying I thought I’d had 3 or 4 months solid progress. I still do, but reflecting back on it, only on certain aspects.”
3 or 4 months is not very long, LaR. If I had to guess, I would say that your sub-conscious (F) will eventually catch up with your executive (T). Your fog hasn’t cleared enough yet, but it will.
„ If there was a nuclear holocaust and all other humans got wiped out, or even if only my favourite human, that is my SO, did – I’d happily shack up with him :))“
Ah, really? I don’t think I would with my LO, or would I? (I mean, if all others were word out, then of course 😉 but not if there would still be the whole range of humanity for choice)
With all my LOs, time showed me their incompatibilities with me, as it would with every person. I think I would prefer to start completely new with somebody. Wouldn’t have said that while still a bit limerent, though. Maybe this contact about his kid softened you a tad? Or would you say you are still completely out of limerence, and it’s just a fact that you would choose him?
(I don’t want to prod you! I’m just curious about comparison to my own mindset..)
*all others were wiped out
Bewitched,
TLDR: Where you’ve got to does sound like outstanding progress on balance.
“3 or 4 months is not very long, LaR. If I had to guess, I would say that your sub-conscious (F) will eventually catch up with your executive (T). Your fog hasn’t cleared enough yet, but it will.”
I think and hope you are right about all that. I don’t want to downplay the progress I’ve already made, but also want to acknowledge the tricky (and probably longer) road that lies ahead to get fully beyond this. You are reassuring with this quite simple take on it – that’s helpful to hear. I do have to find ways to operate with her orbiting around me more days than not, and to still make progress overall, even with that (can’t change it). It is a journey – I know you know this. Thanks for sticking with me rambling about it as the daily fluctuations can leave quite a lot that I benefit from just rambling out on here! Everything has been pretty good between us for a long while now and I feel less up and down.
“If there was a nuclear holocaust and all other humans got wiped out, or even if only my favourite human, that is my SO, did – I’d happily shack up with him :))”
Sorry Mila, but I am with Bewitched on this one (assuming she would be amendable, obviously)! 2-1 in favour of our LOs!! I wish it weren’t so, but there you are, it is.
If you can feel like this positive about him but no longer have the limerence, that is some going! This is why I can’t do the devaluation work – it would be false and counter-productive unless I get to a “I can’t take any more” moment, which has not arrived as yet – and I don’t anticipate it happening unless LO has a personality transplant. Even if and when I am no longer limerent, I believe I will still see her positively as someone who has been all I can want in a friend for a long time. Your story gives me hope.
“I am interested in your ‘take’ on this LaR?”
The stuff about the genesis of this child that you told me before is utterly fascinating. It is one of the biggest LwL revelations I have seen. If your feelings boil down to ‘I like making other people feel good and I really like LO a lot, always will’, and not being able to ignore cute kids, then that all sounds absolutely great. I think you need to be honest with yourself about whether there is anything else (you know what I mean) that ‘binds’ you differently with him and this kid. If the honest answer is ‘no there isn’t’, then I would trust yourself and believe in it. You may not need to over-think this one, if your ‘chi’ about it all feels good. I’m not sure if I have understood your question 100%, so if you want my ‘take’ on any other bit, then please do ask.
Ah, limerence 😅
„Sorry Mila, but I am with Bewitched on this one“
Well, you are still limerent, aren’t you?
I mean, there was a time where I would have said that about my LO, and like you I was sure that this hadn’t anything to do with limerence.
But that was when I was limerent🤷🏻♀️I‘m in a different zone now.
And you know what – that’s good to hear too! Yeah the limerent-tinted glass are still on here. I am interested that Bewitched can have the combo of NLL (no longer limerent) but also such positive feelings about him and still willing to ‘shack up’.
I will continue to say I still have high hopes for your friendship with xLO3, but only if you can make it work in terms you feel happy about.
It’s chicken and egg too though isn’t it Mila? (down on my farm anyway)
You don’t get ‘not limerent’ until you find stuff to put you off them, and it is hard to find stuff to put you off them if you are limerent for a good egg.
I need to hone my 🔍 skills.
I have been limerent a few times but have successfully moved other LOs and crushes on much more quickly and efficiently, whilst I have been with SOs (the current one and a previous). This LO just gives me so little to go on though! It’s a conundrum.
Limerence per se is a conundrum!
Will see LO tomorrow- I’m actually quite curious how I will react. I was invited to go out with him and others tomorrow evening, but have as good as declined already (as he hasn’t asked me anyway himself -might do that tomorrow, though- and I really don’t want to at the moment. I‘ll see enough of him the whole week, and I have to get up early.) I wonder if I will suddenly want to go tomorrow after having been exposed to him.
Maybe new strategy- to detach and watch oneself like a social experiment?
Good resolve – or if it didn’t take resolve, then good progress!
Hope it goes OK this week and doesn’t cause too much if any setback – keep us posted.
LaR, are you trying to lure me out to the farm? 😉
That question about who you would “shack up with”, if at least all relevant SOs suddenly vanished, is a good one. I already tried a variation of this on my summer holiday, and didn’t choose either of my xLOs/TO to join me there. And depends on the definition of “shack up”, but if it’s anything like a desert island type (forever!) set-up, I think I would pass once again. My xLOs are starting to look kind of arrogant from where I’m standing. Though I might be convinced to entertain the idea of either of them for a few weeks if they really put in the effort. 😉 TO, same, except he’s done the work already (and is not arrogant). But sadly, I don’t think I would take him on for a longer time. I don’t know who I would choose, maybe one of my crushes of late, i.e. someone new and shiny like Mila?! 😉 But just the idea of such a close relationship exhausts me at the moment…
I’ve mentioned before that I’ve never really fantasized about a life together with my xLOs, so this might explain my reluctance. Or else I’m just in a mood today!
Hi Mila,
I would probably have the same reaction on the evening thing.
I hope it goes well tomorrow and rest of the week, I’m confident you stay on this good track despite potential ‘revival’ of the old working dynamic with LO.
Maybe to concentrate on all the skills and virtues YOU bring to your workplace. So other colleagues including visiting passer-by ( aka LO ) can be in awe of the way you are at work, and not vice versa.
Best wishes
And I didn’t mean I would choose Mila (though I’m sure I could do a lot worse! 😜), but that I might choose like her and pick someone new and shiny!
Trifles!
Wow am I glad to see your face! 🤩 I thought for a while that I’d lost you wandering about in the cornfields late last night, after I failed to heed your well-meant advice while doing my barman turn. That’ll learn me.
About your point – I think, from a few (ahem) husks (I am harvesting Snow’s poem, I don’t want any credit) of things you’ve fed us here on LwL at different times, that either you’re inclining towards not seeing the reward to you of permanent monogamy with one person, or perhaps you just haven’t met the person yet who could persuade you otherwise. And just for the record, I don’t see anything wrong with that. I can’t do, really, having admitted all I have on LwL, despite never having acted on it. Feel free to put me back in my box if I have that point wrong.
Of course, as you hinted, there is ‘shacking up’ and “shacking up” … my previous LO, in our disclose-and-exit conversation, after confirming I wasn’t in cloud cuckoo land about it being mutual, then said “but we don’t even know if we’d be compatible long term”. I said to her that nobody really does when they start out, but that it can be good fun finding out. I guess it depends what you are looking for in an LTR. I don’t think it is ever possible to keep the fireworks of the first year or two (not in the same form), but there is another different kind of love that can emerge from it. Just depends what people are after.
Anyway, excuse me for now, as I better go put the combine harvester away in the shed and put the snow blanket over it 😀
Oh … Snow, if you’re reading … I have realised what I just said to Trifles about the ‘snow blanket’ could wrongly seem to have double meaning, but I absolutely promise it doesn’t and wasn’t meant to! I was just thinking of my heavy duty farm machinery, nothing more. 🙈
📣 🔊 LaR? 📢 … 🛌 💤
After shacking up with his four European LE ladies all day long and finally losing himself on a haystack cozily laid by his SO and dreamily orbited by his LO, he expects the floating Snow to cover up his heavy-duty ploughing? 😏 Is there fairness/justice in LwL town?
It is said that an average “farmer” can’t pass 6 seconds without thinking about his “farm machinery”, LaR has definitely broken that record — replaced “thinking about” with “using”….
LaR, “snow” is patented name in LwL town, if you use it not carefully, I’ll pull 🪢 you to its juristic division… 💀
Mila,
I’m sending a good-luck wish into your dream/Unconscious, so tomorrow you’ll face the unpredictable with mighty sense of ease and peace…
Hi Mila. I wish you the best for your upcoming LO interactions. I hope they go really well for you.
Try to stay in the present, and not bother too much about how things with LO will pan out in the future. Take it one day at a time.
Let us know how it goes. We are always here to listen.
Cheers!
LaR, Thanks for the welcome! I was only looking out for you yesterday – I doubted that you would have had the ingredients for the drink available in the rural saloon!
You have a fairly good grasp of what I’ve been talking about, but actually I’m not really sure what I want. My mind has been all over the place lately. I think (I at least sound like) I’m just tired of relationships at the moment.*
I don’t think it’s about not having met the right person, I’ve had LTRs with wonderful people and I wouldn’t say it’s their fault that I doubt the possibility of very ‘L’ LTRs.
“…inclining towards not seeing the reward to you of permanent monogamy with one person.” I can see the reward, especially as one grows older. Just not convinced it’s completely doable. I think serial monogamy has been the most prevalent relationship form in human history. But polyamorists have good arguments for, and cultural examples of, polyamory. I’ve recently read a couple (semi-auto)fictional books about the topic so it’s circled around in my mind, on a theoretical level. Who knows where our culture is evolving…
*) Maybe it’s a quiet time at the farm, harvesters being put away, resting and waiting/preparing for spring again? (You just better not go there with any spring chicken analogies..!) I think LEs keep my mind off other changes I could/should make in my life. I guess I’d do anything to avoid purposeful living! 🙄
And ah, farmers and their equipment! 6 seconds, who knew, eh?
Btw, good luck to whoever reads these messages a few years from now. Maybe we should move this over to a farming forum?! 🤔
“That question about who you would “shack up with”, if at least all relevant SOs suddenly vanished, is a good one.”
Trifles
If you asked Momma, of the last few weeks she would say “Terri Clark!” She has forbidden me to listen to her music other than on my headphones because I get so obsessive. 🙂 I once played “Dirty Girl” on loop on youtube on my headphones while playing XBox for like 2 hours. If she is taking my inebriated self somewhere “No Terri Clark!”. And my wife actually knew her music back when she first came out.
Miss Clark has a song called “You’re Easy On The Eyes”. I was listening to it one morning and singing it with our cat sleeping right next to me. I was singing the chorus “I now realize that you were easy on the eyes, hard on the heart” and I turn to the cat and say “Yeah she really was.” My wife told me later that day she was awake at the time and heard it. She sighed and said “every time you make progress you take two steps back.”
Some days later, thinking on what she said, I can understand her frustration. But at the same time I feel like that realization and the verbal utterance of it, really puts LO in perspective. I didn’t really feel anything at the moment I said it. It was a mere statement of fact. Onward and upward I am hoping for.
Keep in mind that in any zombie apocalypse that 99% of the people will end up as zombies. Odds are you’ll be one of them. Who you shack up with takes on a whole new dimension.
Let’s say you have room for one person in your bunker. A really cute lawyer and a welder with his gear show up. Who do you let in? You don’t have any electricity or much paper so those Cease and Desist letters the lawyer could draft are pretty much out.
However, with my luck, considering all the meds I’m on, the zombies might choose to eschew me (pun intended) and I’d be stuck until the meds ran out. What an unintended consequence that would be.
Trifles,
Yeah thinking about it, maybe ‘Farmers Anonymous’ would be more appropriate for all this? Let’s look into that 🚜
I like to hope that when our conversations are discovered as ‘messages in a bottle’ by the LwLers of years to come (those lucky people!), that it will give them hope that not all conversations about limerence have to be too dark, but that kind reality checks are also good.
I must admit, I too find it challenging to engage with the “purposeful living” bits of the blogs. I know DrL and others are right about it, and I have done some very purposeful things (within what I can) to help myself since being here. But purposeful decisions can pull in directly opposite directions from where limerence wants to pull us, so it’s a toughie. And I also get your wider point that sometimes it is easier to delay the purposeful decisions about other bits of life. There could be a reason somewhere for that. But I also think letting the land lie for a spell can be a very good idea too.
(It makes me laugh how everyone is purposeful for about 2 weeks of the year starting 1st Jan. Suddenly the early train and the gym are full and then go back to normal a fortnight later!)
Your points about alternative relationship structures are interesting. I think it gets misrepresented on TV (especially reality TV), as what always seems to happen is different rules for different people. Eg an open relationship seems depicted as more ‘open’ for one partner than another. I do come at this from a place of near ignorance though – I am sure if I knew people IRL who had actually made poly setups work, there would be a lot to be learned.
It also got me thinking as to how and why monogamy is prescribed as the norm. People with a religious leaning will probably understand it most. I guess the best I can come up with (and it may sound outdated and overgeneral) is that, evolution wise, mono relationships tend to provide the best stability to children. If poly became more normalised, that would change. Not trying to make any moral judgement here. Would be interested to know the gist of what those books you read said about it.
Anyway – that was deep – so I am thinking about how to furnish the saloon for the holidays, and maybe laying on an LwL fancy dress party there. Whaddaya reckon? Because what could ever possibly go wrong at an event like that, right? (Talk about putting the foxes in charge of the henhouse 🦊🐔)
Adam, to respond to your comment that got lost amid the zombie attack…
Do you sometimes feel like you are just “going through the motions” of your LE, like being stuck in a loop (not unlike with Terry Clark songs!)? That it’s sometimes just a familiar, even cozy habit that won’t die? Your comment made it sound a little like that, but you can correct me if I’m wrong!
LaR,
“It makes me laugh how everyone is purposeful for about 2 weeks of the year starting 1st Jan. Suddenly the early train and the gym are full and then go back to normal a fortnight later!)”
Now, I’ve always been good at those, small (to me) decisions. But I don’t get how people can’t stick to those, but then they can go out and find a new job, start and finish a new degree, etc..?! I’m jealous!
“I am thinking about how to furnish the saloon for the holidays, and maybe laying on an LwL fancy dress party there.”
Umm… Not sure about that! Count me out of taking drink orders in any case. 😆
Trifles,
If you don’t want to take orders, I’ll serve. So I will get to send/fuse some Eastern voodoo Qi into the “Limerence Swing” set of three glasses…which would soothe some tearful customers. 😜
Trifles
I think you might be on to something. It’s almost at a subconscious level. I thought something and then I said it out loud. The song reminded me of her just the same as if I was listening to “Cats In The Cradle” I would instantly think of our oldest son, who is almost to the last verse in that song in his life. “He’d grown up just like me, my boy was just like me.”
The takeaway I am getting from this incident, for my wife and my sake, perhaps we need to talk about what is an idle/innocent memory and what is rumination. Because this incident seems more ruminating than a memory as it was a comment on how limerence made me feel about her, not some event that actually happened in the time I knew her.
Right – an eastern-western voodoo fusion for ‘Limerence on the Beach’ it is then, Snow! You’re hired!
Adam, that sounds like an important realization. 👍
Hi LaR & Mila,
“TLDR: Where you’ve got to does sound like outstanding progress on balance”
I hope that I am not trippin’. I might be, as I see him seldom and that’s always a bigger test than virtual, which is all I have to go on at the moment.
“Wouldn’t have said that while still a bit limerent, though. Maybe this contact about his kid softened you a tad?” Could be, Mila. What was different this time was much less rumination and thought about it when he reached out one on one and what he said to me in messages. I didn’t overthink that like I might have done in the past. Normally, I am the Queen of overthinking when it comes to him.
“I am interested that Bewitched can have the combo of NLL (no longer limerent) but also such positive feelings about him and still willing to ‘shack up’.”
I am curious about this too. One thing to note is that we don’t meet f2f very often, which is always a totally different experience. In our virtual interactions, he has kept communication to an absolute minimum (as have I, in fairness). 90% of the time, it only happens with others included too. It was nice this time to have him reach out individually to me, quite unusual too, apart from one or two other exceptional times, like when I was bereaved (Kid made an appearance then too 🤔).
I think that maybe I am just still a little bit attracted, which is why I mention ‘shacking up’ (such great visuals from this phrase)). But I don’t think that I am any longer (very) limerent. Which poses the question: can one be ‘slightly limerent’ or is it all or nothing. And also, can someone go back to being attracted in a normal way after being limerent for the same person?
LaR – about what I was saying regarding the fog eventually lifting, I honestly never thought it would for me. I thought that I was one of those people with longer than normal tenacity for my love-object – I began to think that I was a little bit nutty and that I would never ever et him out of the back of my mind – I kept thinking this even after I had got him out of the fore ground of my mind. But it did eventually change, almost unnoticed too. I think time may have done its thing, along with a lot of deliberate thinking ‘No’ and variations of that, for the longest while he kept sneaking in there when I wasn’t concentrating hard enough on keeping him out, like my default setting. However, I have some advantages, my LO is distant geographically and not in daily contact, certainly not f2f. Still, I think you can be hopeful as over-familiarity might do the trick, eventually.
Mila – I think that you are probably more out of it than I am, tbh. Your description of this upcoming session seems like something you are ever-so-slightly jaded about? It is probably good to have low/neutral expectations since they are almost always exceeded in every facet of life and it can make for a pleasant surprise, which is always better than a nasty surprise (?). I do wish you very well – and that you get from it exactly as you wish for yourself (except maybe not the primitive urge to drag him off to a cave somewhere 🙈).
Bewitched,
“Still, I think you can be hopeful as over-familiarity might do the trick, eventually.”
Oddly enough, I got fed a few ‘crumbs’ that when I put this wrapper of yours on them in my head, meant I could just about think “yeah, that’s both predictable and a bit annoying”
This is most likely the sort of work I really need to put in – not to devalue her but just to see the more holistic view needed to get my F chasing after my T.
Hello LaR,
I hope that you are having a good day and not a bad one.
“I could just about think “yeah, that’s both predictable and a bit annoying””
Funnily enough, that was what it was like for me after I reached the top of the limerence hill and started down the other side. I was just a little bit less subjective than before when I was in LO’s complete thrall, or, I should say, when I was in thrall to my own fantasy with regard to him. Before that point, I had been ignoring the obvious incompatibilities because ignoring them fitted better to my fantasy life – one that I had no intention of actually following through on (even at the height of my limerence). Set-backs still arose but, yes, noticing such moments and filing them away, is helpful I think. One thing to beware about is if these moments are simply defensive (reaction to a perceived slight), although I do not think it sounds as though that is the sort of dynamic you have going, so maybe no issues there.
Thanks for your thoughts Bewitched.
No, not a slight, but interesting you thought of it. It is the sort of thing that one year back would have sent my brain hurtling off uncontrollably in that unhelpful direction. But it really isn’t – it is just ‘humans humaning’ and that’s all. This is where it links to your familarity point – with familiarity you come to see patterns and assemble evidence and expectations, which then tend to play out predictably and help build more of the jigsaw. There is then a chance to see them more objectively rather than just through the limerence glasses. I will take all that as a win! An extra item for the toolkit and the first one I have acquired for a while.
Hi LE,
As they say in France, Chapeau! for this which is one of your best, I believe, to date:-
“the zombies might choose to eschew me (pun intended)”
Great visuals. Haha.
I think I would be seriously considering shacking up with the hairy welder in your example. Not the lawyer.
How did this welder suddenly get hairy?
Overactive imagination?
😀
Hairy? I just shacked up over night with a cheeky, smiley pony 🐴 on my bed! 😳
Snow, are you sure it wasn’t indeed a very hairy welder with his gear?(whatever LE meant by „gear“)
Mila, Nope, it’s a shinny faced — no facial hair at all, smiley, pony(or horse) rolling off my bed… I kept patting his head with brownish hair… 🐴
Mila,
By gear, I meant welding equipment, helmet, tanks, torches welding “rods” [run with that as you will], etc.
This thread is getting worse and worse…. 😉
LE,
I do know actually. It was my attempt to make this thread worse and worse, as Serial limerebt aptly noticed.
Singapore Slings are my favorites!
And LE,
a hairy welder with a welding rod, now we are talking! I wonder why the lawyer doesn’t inspire any overactive imagination…
Mila,
Think about the lawyer’s “briefs” and “motions.”
That help any?
And, lest I be considered sexist, I didn’t identify the genders of the lawyer or the welder.
L.E., derailing threads since 2017!
„ Think about the lawyer’s “briefs” and “motions.”
😂😂😂😂
It does help, thank you!!
A female hairy welder with a rod? Not sure about that, but interesting imagery.
😂😂😂😂
LE, didn’t know your LE sling!
Mila,
I have a response to your latest hairy female welder post but it might get me tossed off LwL.
You are bullet-proof here L.E., I’m sure. Please tell us!
LA,
Fine.
Search for the origin of the band name Steely Dan.
Take it from there.
“Steely Dan” I knew that one.
Happy Thanksgiving to all. Hope is drama free (we’ve all seen the movies!).
Bewitched,
Does having dramas in dream 🌙 count as “drama free” in life?
Thank you for the holiday wishes, and thanks to those unimaginable dreams, which help release reality stresses but one day might kill me in a nightmare 💭
It’s funny, when I started to google „origin of band name“, the first suggestion was „Steely Dan“. It’s either a thing of universal interest or there are much more limerents reading these threads than we thought😆
Dear Snow,
I hope that Thanksgiving is especially nice for you this year. Its been really interesting participating in your journey in the past year. I hope that holidays and time off do not cause melancholy, but instead bring peace. I read that the body a d brain detoxifies at night, which helps explain bad dreams and negative thoughts / neuroses in the dead of night, that magically vanish the next day (for me, at least). You might also be a light sleeper (remember dreams more?). I hope you have some sweet dreams in your future X 💤💌💫💤
Bewitched,
I do feel more at peace (just a tiny bit melancholy) compared to last Thanksgiving. Nowadays, I really do NOT expect anything from my LE or life in general, but trying to appreciate whatever I have in my plate nowadays.
With a full week off, I still feel like not enough time for me: need to produce final exams, help students’ review, see friends, cook for Mom and cousin tomorrow, carry on a couple of tutoring (Fri&Sat), proctor a full-day regional exam on Sunday, and a fantasy series on Netflix to binge (have not done so for more than a year) at night.
And keep you ghosts bunch as my mental and spiritual chatting buddies ( as well sharpening my ESL skills and expanding my Western culture database). Now, I’ll help LaR run a LwL salon… where is my spare time?
“I read that the body a d brain detoxifies at night, which helps explain bad dreams and negative thoughts / neuroses in the dead of night, that magically vanish the next day (for me, at least).”
I heard that theory, too. Because during our waking hours, our conscious mind forbids or fends off those “negative thoughts” and push them into the Unconscious, which then release them during our sleep. Otherwise, our mind could “explode”. I also read that those who are unable to have REM sleep (in which dreaming is involved) can’t rest their brain well (not remembering dreams is normal), and even become psychotic in extreme cases. The researches and experiments have been done, but I can’t remember from which resources I’ve heard about this.
“You might also be a light sleeper (remember dreams more?)”
It’s said that those who dream a lot but also remember them have more sharpened, alert sensory system, which corresponds with my test with one of my shrinks — I still remember nightmares since 10 years old; they’re stuck in my memories for good 😌
Based on my smart watch, I have longer REM and deeper sleep ever since I came back from COO, which I suspect something unsettled previously got settled in my system — I became my own parent, at last! 💃 (Still has a bit of cptsd left — those 3 peaceful, “well-fed”🐅 🐅 🐅 )
By the time I climbed into my bed last night, the tiger nightmare became a wonder-provoking story — the wild cement road shaded by such lush, neat bamboo trees and occupied by the majestic tigers are so shinny, smooth, enticing me to continue walking on it…. But I don’t want to feed them my cute, baby Pony! 🐴
🫂
Hi everyone,
just very shortly as I have to leave soon etc, thank you so much for your wishes, you are all so nice. Will keep you posted!
Trifles, if all goes wrong, let’s shack up in that lonely island, I‘ll do my best to be shiny and new 😆only joking.
Imho, not so sure of my working skills today, as I slept badly (I’m sure Snows good luck arrived nonetheless!), but will try to concentrate on my awesomeness🙈 and not to drag him into my cave, Bewitched. ABCD, your advice resonated very much- best not to dwell on future or past and just be in the moment.
Wish you all a beautiful day (or night, whichever!)
Mila, I hope you have a mentally relaxed/otherwise productive day! Do you have an excuse ready for tonight to avoid succumbing to a spontaneous dinner invite? Or will you just ‘play it by ear’? Let’s hope for the best, because I’m just not sure about that island… (Though the company would be great!) 😆
Mila,
After sending you my dream sand to you, guess what happened to me in my messy slumber?
I had a pony for a pet that took more than a half of my bed, but I didn’t have any appropriate food for him (no yellow dry grass near me). He was magically surviving for 3-4 days without eating and still looked strong, smiley with a good temperament — shacked up with a pony in my wildest dream!
Then, I ended up in this casual brunch in a stately house near my home, where I pumped into Trump, Obama, Michelle Obama, her mother, a couple of witches (from the show “the discovery of witches), and many people fussing around. I still could not find proper food for my pony at home, and myself ate a plate of god-knows what without enjoying it. …
Near the door an electrician, chatting with an official looking like guy, was recruiting his potential clients for house repairing. Other loud women were talked about going to the big museum next…
On the way out of the maze, I saw a lot of black seaweed stuck floating in a huge sink; my nausea pumped all my food out…. After coming out of that house, I took my pony for a walk on a wide cerement paved road heavily shaded by tall bamboo trees on two sides.
Coming into a forked cross, I was about walking into the only brighter, wider, sunnier road, then I suddenly saw three majestic beautiful 🐅 🐅 🐅 leisurely strolling on the road. My heart began ponding violently. 😱
I turned around, not sure which road the tigers would take after me. But by then, a little girl of 5-6 years old, out of nowhere, somehow appeared alone on the other fork of the road, and me standing on this one with my pony nearby…
Knowing there was no way I could either save myself or the little girl with my small pony … I woke up…
I think that three tigers symbolize cptsd’s multiple facets in both my childhood and present… when I’m digesting Schreiber’s article?
https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
Wow, Snow ,
what a dream. For me, my own feeling is the most important hint in dreams (sad, angry, happy). I guess you felt an urgency to find food for the pony and indecision/fear/pain at the situation in the end? A stressful dream?
Actually I don’t have any time or knowledge to start analyzing it🙈 you know best what it meant for you! hope you are feeling ok !
Maybe Pony symbolizes my limerence, and there is no more proper food for him/it anymore, either in stately brunch or in my neighborhood.
Outside the urban area, there is a big chance for those tigers to eat up the pony, although I wished in the dream to ride him to run, but then the little girl would be left alone there.
Think of it as I’m typing out, it was indeed my cptsd that suppressed/killed the LE pair-ponding desire and opportunities. Only by killing those tigers first, my pony, myself, and the little girl could survive.
But how? I can’t kill them without some sacrifice. Perhaps my dreams tells me: to leave the pony to the tigers and take the little girl to run? But those tigers would continue living on… 🤔
My feeling in the dream is hair-standing FEAR!
Worry first and then fear of an imminent death, although those shinny tigers (one is sitting calmly in the middle of the road) looked not in any rush, right before I woke up…
Another thought:
Those mild, leisure looking Siberian tigers could mean that my mind has already set peace with them; they are not in a rush to attack me, my pony, or the little girl. Maybe even not go after us if we calmly walk away.…
However, my old mindset still fears those old cptsd effects, as if they pose an imminent threat, while in face they do NOT. A potential danger is always there, but not at the moment of this forked cross road.
Perhaps my Unconscious shows me that the tigers would always be there, but could be peaceful, co-existing with me, my pony, and the little girl.
Another reading of the dream before I go into my dreamland 😴 —
1. I realized that I needed to find proper food for my very cute, smiley Pony 🐴 — my residual LE. He had not eaten for 3 or 4 days, but showing no sign of hunger.
2. Can’t find golden grass anywhere nearby, and I somehow ended up in a stately brunch with the most famous people of the day, but still no eatable food for the pony. Myself disliked anything in that maze-like house and actually threw up before I left.
3. Took the Pony to the countryside and wanted to get on that wider, brighter, sunnier road shaded by very tall, green, neatly lined up bamboo trees at the forked cross, hoping I could find grassy area.
4. Then three majestic, beautiful 🐅🐅🐅 appeared in the middle of wide road (wide enough to pass 4 cars), sitting, standing, and strolling.
5. My hair stood up, heart violently pounding (half awake) and I turned around wanting to run back to one of fork roads where I came from . But the little girl appeared alone on the other fork, and the Pony was standing further away from me, unaware of the tigers.
6. Realizing my inability to out run three big, strong, tigers, with a small pony and a girl, I woke up with dreadful heartbeat…
To me, three tigers still represent my cptsd, which has three major components. In my earlier interpretation, I thought they’d never die and alway pose threats to my survival even if I sacrifice the Pony and ran away with the girl (probably could not get far on foot).
Then, I said those tigers looked in no rush or hungry, which could mean that my mind was already made peace with them, so they would not attack my survival again. But somehow my old mindset was still scared of the cptsd impacts.
A few minutes ago, I got a new thought about what my Unconscious might try to tell me: you need to take the Pony and the girl to pass those tigers and get to the sunnier side of a new living. I couldn’t see what’s ahead of the curved, wider cement road, but it looked brighter, possibly with golden grass?
Now there are two possibilities: 1. I can pass those tiger and leave Pony to them. 2. Those tigers were already fed or even tamed by my hard working with them during my LE of 7 years and healed most of it, so they have lost powers to attack any of us! — this is my conscious mind judging….
But my old mindset in the Unconscious realm did not know this and woke up out of extreme fear of being eaten by the three tigers — my cptsd …. Now, how am I going to pass those three 🐯 🐯🐯 at the Unconscious level ?
Time to get into my dream land again, to see what will happen… 🛌 💤
Snow,
Don’t say if you’d rather not, but what do you feel the pony represented in that dream❓️
🫡 LaR 🔨
You’ve lost me with that Snow. Too cryptic for my brain! Have you been at the “Limerence on the Beach”?!
(I’ve seen your dream interpretation above – I thought the pony would be your limerence in some form, but didn’t want to plant ideas – just the hammer head I want to understand)
LaR,
“Limerence on the beach” (instead of American delicious “Sex on the Beach) is a brand new drink waiting for you to invent/mix for those of us who drop by the bar you and Trifles converted from Dr L’s coffeehouse and often frequented… 😉
Yeah, you’re right, I see the cute Pony as my limerence that lives without its proper food… how long is it going to last, I don’t know… I’m still searching for golden haystacks. 🌾
Oh don’t. I will be kicked out of this place if DrL finds out I tried to turn his coffeehouse into a bar (maybe it could be a bar for the holidays).
Trifles is innocent here. All she did was once made me a strawberry and mint smoothie to settle me down for that long clarifying message to you, at your request. I tried to give her hot chocolate back and it went downhill from there … the alcohol is my fault. I don’t want to sully her good name!
LaR,
Ok, our LE barman, Trifles is our sweetest bar attendant. It’s a holiday season, DrL would be grinning watching us LE “inmates” having some Merry Go ‘Round, LE Up and Down fun…
I reckon “Limerent on the Beach” would have some ingredients that make one first feel rosy ecstatic, peachy in reverie, then pale blue/brown, then tearful…. What a combo could make one feel so??
After I vented out my fear, those beautiful tigers no longer appear scary at all in my mind… In general, tigers or lions don’t provoke any fear in my visualization/imagination.
Snakes are my worst enemy in dreams… Zeus helps me 📣 not see them pulling my legs (did the past) in my slumbers…💤
Hey Snow, yeah, great idea – maybe DrL could order us a merry-go-round for Christmas outside the saloon?! So appropriate!
I think those different effects of ‘Limerence on the beach’ could be differentiated based on the amount of glasses of the ‘drug’ we choose to imbibe. We could add tasting notes to the menu to explain.
And the hammerhead??
“Limerent on the beach” 🏖️ in three colors — dark rosy, pinkish peach, and purple blue, is served in a set of 3 smaller cocktail glass (1/2 of normal size). One serve is called “One Taste” for the whole set. Needless to say, each mini glass has distinctive limerence flavor served in an intermittent interval.… when a customer becomes tearful or tipsy in the accompanied by Adam’s or LE’s DJ choice, bring him or her a glass of Trifler’s smoothie made of fresh strawberry, watermelon, cherry, passion-fruits, dragon fruit/Pitaya ….
Now, DrL can get some additional fund to help LwL…😄
Snow,
I think as a crew we are coming up with a decent little ‘side hustle’ for some LwL fundraising (ram a saloon with limerents and watch them greedily fill the till).
Should the industrial agricultural equipment rust in the barn over the winter, it is good to think about this different career path in cocktail shaking opening up 😀
LaR,
Morning greetings! No dream is remembered last night but woke up with a headache, so meditated (with my special combo techniques) about 30 minutes, and now all peachy…
You need to come up with the concrete receipt for “Limerence on the Beach” or “Limerence Swing” (a better name? since most of us limerents rarely hit the beach but swinging back and forth, up and down in a dry land), I think Mila and ABCD could use it more nowadays…. I wish they could physically meditate more to immediately reduce the over-pressing anxiety and heartache (not to solve LO dependency issues over nights), which I knew too well when ET was still around….
Mila, ABCD
I’m listening to you and feel your pains, but I’m always short of soothing words (aside from dry Stoic mantras)…. Hanging in there with deep breath, long walks, or LaR’s and Trifles’ sweet drinks, alcohol (free).
I’m leaving now to have a realistic brunch with my limerent friend and his 3rd wife (non-LE type), whose presence would prevent me from chatting about LE topic (he was in LE with me when I was still married and caused my SO’s concern, but I never had Glimmer, despite I was quite fond of his brilliant creativity, leadership and peacemaking abilities). We mutually understand well our LE tendency, respectively, and have zero judgment about our LEs.
Have a nice day/afternoon/evening!
Snow,
noo, my drink simply must have alcohol in it today…
Have a nice brunch!
The saloon has got a Guinness ready for you Mila, for whenever you care to swing by.
LaR,
I think Mila needs something stronger than that this evening, No?
I suggest something with Vodka based mixed with fiery 🔥 fruits to get the sad steam 😥 out of her head…
LaR,
A colorful order that has not reached to “Limerence on the Beach” but just “Limerence in Swing”….
Besides, litchi, passion fruit and dragon fruit, add some fresh blueberry as well,
❄️ – I am going to be out of a job soon, now you’re running the menu planning. I could do better 👩🏫. Will get working on the recipe for ‘long uncomfortable blues’
LaR,
I’m just blowing some voodoo ideas to your ears… you know better right portions of sequential drinks, that is critical to us limerent inmates here…
A bottle of vodka (or other type of fiery liquor) and those fiery or cooler fruits are what we need to try in our saloon…
LaR,
I see you just served ABCD a Taste of “Limerence in hot-n-cold balance” with your own signature, that would work for him! 👍
What did you call the drink you earlier served CSC?
I think that drink to CSC could be named, “Limerence in Hell under LO’s Spell”? some blackberry and blueberry in it, right?
Thanks for the Guinness, had a lot of white and red wine, that doesn’t bode well for sleep and work tomorrow 😆
Lovely evening though.
Tomorrow evening I’ll go light on the drink as to stay alert since LO will be there and I don’t want to blurt out stuff or get sentimental. Or get a headache.
Mila,
Ah, mixing your greap and graen! And two different colours of wine too. Hope you drank those in the right order. “Beer and wine makes you feel fine …”
Snow,
Not sure about CSC’s drink. I think many of us in CSC’s position need something cool-aid based for the ‘LE gap’ that the holidays will present. I’ll get thinking. Maybe a ‘low contact with lemon, lime and sugar’ to capture that bittersweet feeling. All washed down with a ‘bloody (hell I text LO on Christmas Day) Mary’.
I have a joke for you.
“A horse walks into a bar …”
What is the punchline?
A horse walked into a bar —
The bartender asks, “Why the long face?”
The horse says, “My SO fell in limerence with my best buddy. Got anything to help with that?”
The bartender looks him up and down, and says “Neigh.”
👏👏👏👏👏👏
Snow, that has knocked it out of the park.
I did have a punchline but it can’t beat that one.
‘A horse walked into a bar.
Its recent liking for alcohol is really starting to cause concern among members of the normally teetotal equine community.’
[Puts up shield against flying brownies and retreats quietly]
Snow,
can I have my vodka with fiery fruits now? Early in the day but I need something to keep me going🙈
~for the farmers’ forum~
A farmer walks into a bar with a pig under his arm. “Where’d you get that?” asks the barman. “I won it in a raffle” replies the pig.
😂 Trifles, honestly!
For today’s ‘can you invent a better punchline than the one LaR is thinking of?’ competition (Thanksgiving special), open to all:
“A herd of cows walk into a bar but none of them enjoy themselves.
.. [insert punchline] ..
Gotta go open up early – got Mila rattling the saloon impatiently. Hoping Snow has got a special of the day planned for her.
Mila,
Here is “Limerence on the Morning Spike”:
1 1/2 oz. vodka.
1 oz. Passion Fruit juice.
2 oz. Litchi juice.
2 oz. Dragon Fruit juice.
Mango wedge and maraschino cherries, for serving.
Nice, Snow! A bit too sweet for my taste, maybe, but leave the maraschino cherries out and I’ll take it!
Yeah, open the bar already!
I just decided to loosen up a bit and just have fun at work with LO when he angered me again with something. It’s a mixture of affection, fed-up-ness, a bit of desire and annoyance . Not a cocktail I would recommend.
LaR,
“[Puts up shield against flying brownies and retreats quietly]”
Hmmm…. 🤔 Let’s avoid the dangerous, dark, messy brownies, but serve colorful French Macaron in the saloon, especially for limerence reverie…
Mila,
If you think it’s too sweet, cut down the portion of Litchi (passion fruit and dragon fruit are not really sweet). Some cranberry juice could be added. Before you go out with LO in the evening, increase vodka dose.
The drink should dilute the “fed-up-ness” and “annoyance” in your vein…
The cows look at LaR (the bar keep) haughtily and declare: “You’re just not very a-moo-sing”..?
Snow, are you sure about Mila’s cocktail? She’s now only left with the affection and desire..?!
A group of head-down cows walk into the bar, the barman says, “we don’t serve Red Bull here.”
The cows answer, “Moooo, we’ll just go to an udder bar”. (Copied from internet)
Trifles,
The portion of “fed-up-ness” and “annoyance” have been higher in the last couple of days…. So the drink is to distill down their potency and her expectations, so Mila can carry a colorful, upbeat, yet balanced Limer composure to face her LO now or later in the evening… 😜
You are both right in a way, I don’t want to be left only with affection and desire, but annoyance is the one that bothers me most at the moment. So a drink that takes away annoyance and desire, tampers down fed-up-feeling to a feeling of content „yeah now that was enough contact with this guy for a couple of weeks“ and leaves normal affection, that would be great, thank you very much, will leave generous tips!
My (real) work (not farming or bar tending – I am being pulled in a lot of directions here you know, this is a lot like limerence!!) is preventing me being as creative as Snow with the cocktails. She is doing great!
But Mila I think we should just serve you up some Tequila slammers. The salt, tequila and lemon will allow you to experience a whole range of emotions in a few seconds and decide which fits best. And after any time I have ever had a few of those – well, I certainly haven’t wanted to see them again for a few weeks, and have had no regret about that fact. We can bring the cherries back as an option at the end if it all feels too bitter.
This shift work is knackering and I will need the weekend off. Shall I see if I can get that welder guy to provide cover?
Oh and Snow, your AI assisted joke nabbed my punchline:
“…it was an udderly disappointing experience all round”
Oh, and for the record, that was the cows’ opinion, not mine! I find our bar keep quite a-moo-sing. 😁
LaR,
Here in LwL town, feel free to be anyone you like, or shapeshifting…. I still have no clue of what’s your line of profession, which does not matter here. We are here either LO, SO, limerent, or both/threesome; male, female, or both…
FYI: I haven’t had any vodka in my household for over a decade, and can’t remember when it was last time I had vodka based drink, perhaps 2 or 3 years ago? I only like imagining. I might get a bottle during the winter break and try with those exotic fruits if I can find their juice/puree.
I also rarely use AI, unless my work requires some kind of image or poster making. Google is plenty for my cultural learning and wild fabricating…
Please don’t abandon us in the saloon over the weekend, to be covered by that hairy 🧑🏭 ? 😬 — that’s Bewitched choice… I don’t want any lawyer’s brief motion, either — tried one once (from an app) and my Zeus, sooooo udderly disappointing…. ☹️
I’m just going to meditate with Bob Lind’s lyrics….
Trifles,
You know what, I had ‘herd’ that rumour somewhere 😅🙃
‘quite’ amoosing – well I shall just have to try a bit harder to reach the next category up, eh!
You may pleased to know I am working on a few options to suggest to the community for a name for the Saloon (contributions from the patrons most welcome – I think there are endless possibilities). But the first pun that popped into my head, you may well destroy me if I ever mention again (and I *bet* you know exactly what I’m talking about 😳)
Snow,
I’m really sorry but it’s too late, the welder has been enlisted. Maybe Marcia needs to pop over and do a shift to keep his over exuberant behaviour in order? Or Adam to rescue anyone that the welder misbehaves with (only those who want rescuing, mind, I think Mila and Bewitched might not need that!).
A-moo-sing:
—What does the farmer talk about while milking a cow?
Udder nonsense.”
—What did the cow say when the bull broke up with her?
“Without you, I’ll never be whole milk again!”
—What do you call a group of cows in limerence with a sense of humor?
Laughing stock of limerence!
I actually don’t know what pun you were referring to… I’ve only forbidden the use of one pun/analogy and I meant using it in relation to me, and negating the term. It’s fine to use as a name for a saloon for limerents however! It’s up to them if they want to patronize thus-named joint.
Interestingly, I’ve just patented a certain term for use in the bar industry, so you will only have to pay me royalties for its use. Much like using the symbol ❄️ for beverages.
Trifles,
I did not know that was your patented name, sorry.
An ESL speaker here was trying to find out what “a-moo-sing” means and landed in https://www.boredpanda.com/cow-jokes/ — 123 Udderly A-moo-sing Cow Jokes
I just picked out 2.5 from it and added 0.5 of my own 😆
Here is my loyalty to you 💰👑
Snow, sorry – I forgot to say in my post that I was replying to LaR. He was thinking of naming the saloon, possibly using a pun that came from yours truly.
I didn’t realize I could patent a-moo-sing as well. (I came up with it myself, without Google!) Thanks for the loyalty/royalty in any case! 😉
Laughing stock would make a good name for the saloon. 👍
If a cow or horse walks into a bar, then it needs to cut down on the juice before it REALLY does itself an injury….. 😉
“Laughing stock would make a good name for the saloon. 👍”
That and the ‘AMoos- Inn’ (if not patented) are our early front runners then.
And both with agricultural undertone!
More ideas on way 🍻
LaR, A-ha, I was a little slow, but no-o-ow I get the forbidden phrase you were referring to..!
In my last comment I was thinking of “The Spring Chicken”, but is that too seasonal?
*Runs off to patent “On the Hook”.
Ok … as you let the words out … now I dare to … I was thinking about “The Hooked Inn”??
Or “The House of Hot and Cold Cycles” (devoted to ABCD)
I like the name Amoor’s (hooked?) Inn — It has Moo, and aGreek God of love, “Amor”-Cupid who is udderly responsible for limerence 💘!
Inn is in the country/nature, where there are ample haystacks for horses (my Pony), cows/bulls, sheep, chicks, and cock-a-doodle-do 🐔
Serial Limerent,
What would juices do to horses 🐎 and cows 🐄 ❓
@Snow
Juice is a euphemism for alcohol. 🙂
„ But Mila I think we should just serve you up some Tequila slammers. The salt, tequila and lemon will allow you to experience a whole range of emotions in a few seconds and decide which fits best. And after any time I have ever had a few of those – well, I certainly haven’t wanted to see them again for a few weeks, and have had no regret about that fact.“
Ha! Read that still at work and had to laugh.
I‘m all for Hooked Inn, but please make a sign for hairy welders to keep out, this guy starts to look sinister to me.
Week with LO is going on, I‘m still puzzling. I‘m still changing between moods/views of him like crazy. As expected, he‘s brilliant at work, I realized that this is where he shows his best sides and where I miss him most, and that I still have a great sadness inside me that he abandoned me there. But then, I listen to him in the evening etc, and hear/see things that are ever so slightly annoying me.
It was a nice evening, but I was very tired, I didn’t talk to him much which was absolutely fine for me, and now I‘m not at all in the mood for another evening like this at our place today, also because my SO is not keen. But cannot really uninvite him.
I‘m much too detailed here, I know, but I’m very sure that neither SO nor LO would ever read this.
Something is working inside me by itself, but not sure, what the outcome will be.
If we’re happy for it to be called an Inn (I approve of the countryside link), then our early runners are the Amoor Inn and the Hooked Inn, then.
Here are ten more possible limerent Inn names. I’ll await your feedback while I try and call the welder off:
1. The Inn-termittent Reward
2. The GlimmerInn’
3. The Reverie and RuminatInn’
4. The Purposeful LivInn’
5. The Inn Fatuation
6. The Overshare Inn
7. The Inn Decisive
8. The RationalisInn’
9. It’s Inn their eyes
10. The Inn too deep
LaR, I think you saved the best for last! I like Inn Too Deep.
Following up on forbidden phrases/items, I would forbid the sales of one cocktail at the saloon. Inn-stead we could offer Sex on the Ranch, where the peach schnapps is replaced with butter milk. Hmm. Not sure if it will catch on…
I still push for the name “Amoor Inn” because it is spirited by the Greek God of love, it hints a Moo-Sing fun/laughters and it covers the some nagging/annoying/addictive aspects of LE without revealing them upon first glimpse on the name.
Moreover, Amor or Glimmer is very luring without arousing suspicion or worry of being trapped/hooked or of being too rational/purposeful when one just wants to relax or fancy amorous dreams little, especially during the holiday.
To raise more fund for Dr L, the Inn needs to seduce some non-limerents or random/innocent passerby.
@Mila @Snow
haha – i just saw your thing about the drinks and the drink names.
Yep, Kool-Aid based and very bitter – lemons for sure — would have done me fine! 🙂 I would like the edge of the glass ringed in crushed quaaludes, kind of like a Martine. Actually, instead of a glass, can it be served in a giant Trophy? hahaha
I think maybe it could be called a “Existential Sunrise” or “Midlife Special” haha :))
oops not Martini — Margarita. 🙂
Hi CSC,
I think it were Lim-a-Rant, Snow and Trifles who invented all the racy drinks. I just baked lame cookies that I ate myself, and they discussed which drink would get my spirits up best and plied me with Guinness.
Turned out I managed it with a little red wine and some truth-revealing texting- wouldn’t say no to a decent Margarita, though, just to celebrate a bit. I like „Existential Sunrise“!
Cheers!
Mila,
I think I’ve figured out your niche at this bar. Would you be on European wine sourcing? I say this as wine did you good at the weekend and you seem to travel enough to fit in a few tastings …
Everyone,
first day of working with LO over. Not quite sure about it. He‘s physically not feeling well, so it’s a bit hard to judge his mood towards me, but I’m being nice, he‘s being – actually, I don’t know. He‘s kind of nice but wary, or maybe just in pain. I think we are ok, but it feels a bit awkward. I won’t go out this evening, although there’s still the option (our mutual friend keeps asking). I don’t feel like it.
I‘m experiencing something that I can only describe as cognitive dissonance, but I’m not quite sure why and what the layers are exactly.
Will not mull it over now, though, just keep on being nice, it seems the easiest route. I think he noticed my pulling back etc and is a bit pissed off/decided to be a bit aloof. But since he‘s aloof anyway at the best of times, it doesn’t impress me that much. Also, I cannot be really follow any strategies with someone in pain. I try to help him and hope he gets better🤷🏻♀️I think that’s the main thing now.
But I‘m quite confused by this strong feeling of dissonance. It’s really like different layers of opposite feelings/thoughts or whatever, but never really surfacing. Guess there’s some denial involved, or I’m experiencing the old ruts of limerence having a ghost-like awakening while not being in use anymore, plus the new paths of non-limerence layered over them. Cannot express myself.
Dear Mila,
Your feelings were very well expressed and I got a strong sense from how you described them.
“But I‘m quite confused by this strong feeling of dissonance. It’s really like different layers of opposite feelings/thoughts or whatever, but never really surfacing. Guess there’s some denial involved, or I’m experiencing the old ruts of limerence having a ghost-like awakening while not being in use anymore, plus the new paths of non-limerence layered over them”
New paths of non-limerence layered over the ‘hangover’ of your old feelings seems about what I would expect at this stage. The strength of feeling from when you were strongly limerent (remember last Christmas?) and the long drawn-out nature of that feeling and its aftermath must leave a hangover. But so too does the more tiresome stuff, from being in limbo from the lack of decision, *its* long drawn-out nature (and the nature of its being revealed by LO’s wife), as well as the unsatisfactory texting and lack of appreciation for you which you’ve gained an appreciation of with a bit of distance and perspective. No wonder the layers are all there. But they are only feelings, and all feelings pass. The main thing is actions, and you are doing the right thing by being nice, especially if LO is ill. You don’t need to go out of your way, however!
Rest-up well and I hope the rest of the trip goes well for you. Feel free to share with us and talk it out. Goodness knows I have been talking your ears off in the last few days. I hope that you are feeling good about yourself and have your mojo going. I plan on booking tickets to see some art.
„ (remember last Christmas?) “
Actually what I remember is having one of the little truth moments- I had an emergency of some sort and needed someone in my hometown with a car to help me out, and I realized that I didn’t want to ask him because I thought he would make a fuss, would do it and then be very smug and I would have the feeling of being in his debt. I thought of three other people I‘d ask before I would ask him.
It could be that I might have done him wrong there. But still, that’s what I remember from last Christmas…
Hi Mila,
Day 1 complete. That’s a win. Shame if he is unwell though. Don’t get too close, you don’t want to get sick!
Cognitive dissonance is something that I recognise in my struggles. Maybe to recognise that these few days ahead, you have both your true friend and your fantasy LO now in front of you, which is probably creating the dissonance. ( I’m no expert ! ) Maybe just let your thoughts flow and go (they are not actions) and the real life interactions just happen naturally, as they did before limerence and tap into the memories of that earlier time, which may help resolve the dissonance over coming days, to kind of re-set.
I hope you can relax and feel contented after this time working with your friend.
Hi Imho,
Thanks for your kind words!
It’s nothing contagious, it’s back pain.
„and the real life interactions just happen naturally, as they did before limerence and tap into the memories of that earlier time, “
I‘m not sure if that’s possible since he himself doesn’t behave like in earlier time. I think he finally got the message that I wanted to reduce the contact and is now different. And, I‘m not sure myself if I just can go back to that same friendship. I think either we have to create the friendship new or it will remain a bit paler , more distant and kind of strained version of the old one. You see, my thoughts flow like heck😆
I don’t feel contented at the moment, it’s more a flat feeling…
How are you feeling with your upcoming event? Maybe heed your own advice- relax and feel contented to meet a friend, nothing more, let guide this motto your actions and your thoughts/observations can still flow freely?
Mila,
Ooo, back pain. I feel for him, as you cannot rest your back.
it seems a little sad if that previous friendship dynamic has gone, but I guess all relationships evolve in time and so we have to adapt and embrace it. I’m personally not great with change.
A ‘flat feeling’ is not so bad maybe, compared to so many other worse /erratic emotions us limerents go through. I dunno. I’m very up and down and probably in a similar place actually.
As for me, I feel the need to go with ‘distance’. I’m still figuring it out.
Hi Imho,
I‘m also still figuring out what’s going on or what’s best for me. It feels like an effort to be warm, I kind of lost natural reflexes in this friendship, while I miss him/it at the same time.
Maybe leave some wiggle room for spontaneous adjustments. And I really have to say, despite me feeling otherwise at the moment, being nice in most cases feels better afterwards. Like Bewitched said, nice but not falling over yourself to be nice (she surely expressed it differently, cannot recall)…
Hi Mila. Just read your message describing day #1 working with LO.
I get what you are saying about feeling that the relationship not being as warm as before. In the past, when LO has ignored me, I have been devastated, its like a knife going though the heart, very painful. I kept telling myself, LO behavior is not in my control. I can only work on stuff that is in my control, like being nice when there is a meetup.
However, I noticed that I have bounced back from those negative emotions, every single time, and have felt better with the passage of time. So I just keep telling myself when I feel low – do not worry, this will pass, and it does.
I had another recent contact with LO, and this one was super warm, with LO complementing. So much for my theory that LO is detatching 🙂 Just shows that many times, our mind just makes stuff up, both positive and negative.
I won’t lie, the last contact felt really good. It has taken me out of my bad mood. Going forward, I am just telling myself – hey, LO and I are ok. We can speak to each other, within barriers, whenever we get the chance.
We shall see how I take the next cold interaction.
For now, I am trying to live in the moment.
I would advise you to continue being nice, irrespective of LO behavior. This is the best way to go about it.
I agree with others that you are experiencing a mixture of emotions, recognise them, acknowledge them, I am sure they shall pass soon.
All the best, and let us know how it goes.
Hi ABCD,
Thanks you! I‘m glad you feel better. Yes, it’s much easier when LO is being warm and nice. Best is when they are warm and nice but with firm boundaries.
In my case, it’s not so much about hot/cold cycles and wondering why. I do know that it‘s all of my making. I reduced contact and now he‘s even more withdrawn with his show of emotions,exactly the character trait that made me angry and withdraw.
I‘m a bit sad about it all, and at the same time know that effort on my side would be required to get the warmth up because he‘s so d… passive.
I mean, all is ok on the outside, I invited him in for tea yesterday, he‘ll also have dinner here this week etc, but actually, I feel like this week is already dragging on, and I already think of ways to escape the lunchbreak with him today, I cannot do much more of this slightly depressing stuff.
What is depressing me is that I think he will never make a real step like asking if something is the matter, of remarking on changed atmosphere. It would all always be up to me.
In earlier times this didn’t irritate me, I just didn’t think about it, because he wasn’t that important , maybe. I don’t know if I can get back to that innocent and relaxed friendship.
At the moment, I cannot enjoy his company very much, but I do miss him as a friend, if that makes sense.
Off I go for another day of trying..
Hi Mila.
In the past, I have sometimes not gone to places where LO would be present. Now, contact has naturally reduced.
Think of this as a short term series of meetings, this week will be over soon.
You are not happy with lack of effort from LOs side. I understand how you feel.
You have been very courageous in reducing contact from your side. I am not that strong, yet.
I would say just hang in there, you will feel better.
Sorry, cannot offer more helpful advice.
Hi ABCD,
„ Sorry, cannot offer more helpful advice.“
I cannot say how helpful it is for you all to simply reading and sympathizing.
It means very much to me!
Thank you!
Mila,
This is a shot in the dark, but can you reignite the friendship (as a friendship) by thinking of / writing down everything you liked about him that made you friends in the first place? Or has all that had too much shade thrown on it, by the repeat exposure to the bits of him you find irritating, and the trauma of the LE (let us be honest, there is always trauma to some extent)?
Your analysis of it with Bewitched yesterday of the old and new sets of views ‘doing battle’ sounds intuitively pretty solid.
Hi Lim-a-Rant,
I‘m not sure I want to write it down. Just fled from the canteen (LO sat there in conversation with LO1, that was a bit much for me to handle, but I guess he’ll see it as renewed coldness that I left).
I seem to be in a rut where I cannot be nice without him being a bit more actively nice, actively making a step towards me, and I remember that behavior of mine from earlier LEs. The thing is that my former LOs kind of saved me from my own mood (which feels kind of frozen) by delivering said active niceness, and this one won’t. So, can I manage to jump over my own shadow (do you say that in English?) and make the step myself (again), or not?
Sorry to pester you all with this stuff, maybe I shouldn’t report every single day here😆
Come to think of it (having fled in the lunchbreak too), „trauma“ might hit the nail on the spot (or whatever you say in English. Found out there‘s no“jump over one‘s own shadow“. Pity, it’s a great expression).
I think I’m a bit traumatized by this whole uncertainty/always a little too less warmth- LE/friendship.
Hi Mila,
By ‘jump over your own shadow’ do you mean take the first step by being nice to LO when he is not making the effort?
I do not think that this has to be something that you worry about too much because that makes it into a vicious cycle. Worrying makes the interaction really hard and abnormal. I also payed attention when someone, maybe LaR, mentioned the word ‘Trauma’. Coming out the other side of an LE is traumatic especially when its with a friend or work colleague that you need to maintain or want to maintain cordial relationship with. There is no doubt about that. Its hard to establish normality when you see them or hear from them (virtually) only rarely. Maybe, on some level, you were also freaked out by the sight of LO with LO1 (who you don’t like so much). I think that you can always make an excuse for feeling strange – a little white lie like a lack of sleep last night. Or if you prefer, you can just style it out with purpose – no pandering to compensate for LO’s social failings! Either way can also be rationalised later once dynamics stabilise into a new phase – e.g. when you go away on your trip. If I were you, I would be seeking refuge in other work friends and colleagues. Maybe hanging with the younger ones as that is always a laugh and can be a balm from the heavy feelings. That, or planning a sneaky cocktail at home after work – reverie for home comforts and your favourite show or something…. Distraction works!!!!
(And this nice man, or reasonably nice man, does not need to take up space in your mind, bless him. If that sounds patronising, its because it is!!!)
Hi Bewitched,
Thank you a lot, also for this “ no pandering to compensate for LO’s social failings! ”
because that’s what I usually do. As you know, it’s a bit necessary with him and his neurodivergence, but it’s my free decision if I want to help him out there or not, it’s not my obligation.
As to sneaky cocktails and favorite shows etc, I already shovel very many sweets into myself because of the stress of that situation, because I’m in dear need of rewards …
Tonight (it’s socially a very busy week, I’m not usually out in the evening, but suddenly every evening this week)I’ll see friends that I love very much, together with SO, I’m looking forward and it will be a welcome break.
“ (And this nice man, or reasonably nice man, does not need to take up space in your mind, bless him. If that sounds patronising, it’s because it is!!!)”
That’s the mindset I aspire to. He really doesn’t mean ill, I want to get back to like him in an indulgent way, not caring too much about what he thinks, and stop to judge and be angry at his social failings all the time. The question is, can I do that now or does it need more time or even more anger.
I guess I just let it roll, and as you say, there will be more opportunities like this trip to get into calmer waters.
Bewitched,
forgot to explain, „jump over one‘s shadow“ means doing something one really has to force oneself to do because one doesn’t want to do it, but does it for the sake of others or because it’s generally for the best.
(LO just sent a very gormless text, just to make contact. It‘s always a wonder to me how many clues he misses. When a friend would behave the way I did, I would ask if something’s the matter or at least if they are ok, but he „cannot get out of his skin“ another expression.)Of course the text is about himself, and I replied duly but now he won’t read or answer it (not fact, my prediction).
Mila,
I can’t even see where you said you were worried you were over-sharing, or ‘maybe I shouldn’t share so much’, but please don’t worry about it. This is a great safe place to get the stuff out that’s bothering us and try and make sense of it with others’ help. Those who don’t want to read it all can just scroll past (I say this as I am conscious I have been an ‘oversharer’ of late)
Hi ABCD,
A few thoughts drawing on my LE experiences alongside what you shared.
“Just shows that many times, our mind just makes stuff up, both positive and negative”
Believe me I have truly been here. This is one part of my LE that I think I’ve mostly conquered, mainly through repeat assembly of alternative and more rational evidence. It needed a lot of repeats, and I still have slips.
“Going forward, I am just telling myself – hey, LO and I are ok. We can speak to each other, within barriers, whenever we get the chance.”
A double sided response from me to that. The positive side is I think it is a great mindset to cultivate if LO is around us a fair bit. If you can *really* do it, it will help you reduce the highs and lows. The other side is that I find it creates limbo. It allows me to *live with* limerence, but hasn’t (yet) removed limerence – it just manages it, turns volume down a bit. But Bewitched has suggested to me it is still only a short time span that I have been ‘at this’ strategy, and that the second issue might eventually catch up and resolve.
It does sound like things with LO took you both into and out of the dip, which says she is still quite a big mood regulator for you.
“You have been very courageous in reducing contact from your side. I am not that strong, yet”
But if you say you have avoided events LO will be at, maybe you have been stronger than you think? I do think lowering contact as much as you reasonably can would help you. This is a part that at least the more recovery-motivated side of me wishes I had the option of. But it is in a constant battle with the limerent side.
Stay strong my friend.
Thanks for your perspective, LaR.
My mind really amplifies both the positive and negative with respect to LO. Definitely need a more toned down response. I am happy to see your success in this regard. I will continue working on this aspect. This is pretty crucial to recovery.
I am feeling upbeat due to the recent interaction, though the flip side is that I am still clinging on to LE, limerence may creep in to push me back two steps. This seems a short term solution, am aware of that.
“It does sound like things with LO took you both into and out of the dip, which says she is still quite a big mood regulator for you”.
A yes to LO still being a mood regulator. The one thing is that contact has reduced now, so exposure to the highs/lows has also reduced. I will try to manage them with LC, for now.
The LC has helped, no chance of NC though, looks like.
Thanks for your wishes, you stay strong too. Cheers.
ABCD,
I wanted to share a story with you in follow up (Bewitched, it also follows from what I told you yesterday)
LO threw me some slight curveballs yesterday. LO is the sort of person who enjoys throwing curveballs in a bantering way. I am 50/50 if she even knew she was doing it. With hindsight I set myself up to have them thrown at me (I got a reaction I deserved and could have predicted).
In the past two things would have happened to me as a result. 1. it would set me off on a terrible rumination; 2. the very next time I saw her, all the worst scenarios I created in the rumination would be disproved by a warm interaction to compensate. Rinse down and repeat. Something, somewhere has stuck, to tell me this is just how the ‘hot’ and ‘cold’ cycle with her works (the hot is not as hot as limerent brain believes, the cold is not as cold as my limerent brain believes). Like I said before, LOs are just people with normal moodswings, real lives outside the LE, and who didn’t ask to be our LOs.
I saw the choice I had yesterday which was either to ruminate, feel rubbish for 24 hours and then feel great again today when the ‘compensatory’ interaction happened, or the option I went for ‘don’t get pulled in by the rumination: you know what happened and why, trust that it means little and you know what happens next, like every other time’. I chose that second way, the warm interaction then arrived on schedule, and I exited that 24 hours having felt neither a massive low or high.
I don’t know what clicked or when to open up this option to me, but it has worked several times now and spared me the rumination and the low. I think it is just repeat exposure to evidence or as Bewitched put it, familiarity. All the good in a relationship can hardly ever be undone in a single cold interaction, as our limerent brains might have us think.
I know our situations are different but the last two interactions for you sound like they have a similar pattern. I wonder if there is anything there you can tap into to help.
There are other areas of my LE where I am still struggling much more, so I am not raising victory flags by any means. But you’ve got to take the triumphs when they come.
I don’t know if this tactic can work for you or whether you really need to go with as LC as poss as your strategy, or both. I hope handling the interactions gets easier for you.
I need a smoothie and a sympathetic ear from a barman/fellow patron. (I sure hope it’s not the welder’s shift yet!) I’m upset with TO. He’s planning a trip in the vicinity of me (still not very close, but closer) with his family. And of course he doesn’t want to meet me, just like he said we couldn’t meet when I was near him last summer. I think we could meet as friends but last time he said he would be too tempted. It frustrates me now that our relationship is all digital and that he is so secretive about it. (LaR, I think this answers your question about EAs.) And I think it upsets me because it makes me feel like he is just using me for validation.
There’s nothing I can say to that (not meeting me). Of course he should prioritise his family. Although who knows if his SO even wants to come along, but the kids… And what does that say about me that I choose people who I have no right to ask/demand anything from? Don’t answer, that’s a rhetorical question.
At these times I feel like I should cut off contact. But I know I couldn’t do it because I also get positives from our interaction. It’s now been 7 months of daily contact. He texts me when he wakes up and last thing at night (usually within my time limits, i.e. not too late) and most days a few times in between. He initiates the texting. Am I wrong to have expectations for him, at least for him to want to meet?
Hmm. This feeling of frustrating will probably pass, just venting now.
Trifles,
(Real) work (Friday is my beast day there, I just can’t herd those dratted sheep) prevents the barman articulating much of a reply until much later.
Snow with her cocktails is on lates today. So I’ve mixed you up an apple, kiwi and watermelon smoothie to soothe those frayed nerves 🍏😀 Grab yourself a stool and let’s see which other patrons turn up with helpful words.
You are right to feel frustration. I will expand my thoughts later. Take it easy on yourself today.
Trifles,
I’d mix mango, papaya, litchi, passionfruit, kiwi, watermelon, banana and a bit of sweetened almond milk for you for now. Your stomach needs to be sweetened and settled first.
The 2nd or 3rd order would be adjusted based on your feelings then.
Oh and I have security on the door in case that flipping welder shows up waving his blowtorch around.
You could let the lawyer raise a motion with a brief or whatever. Let the two fight it out between them!
Mila,
Lawyer’s “brief motion” 💼 becomes even more limping in front of Amoor Inn. Forget about him!
Bringing a French-Fencing ⚔️ amateur would have a better chance to fend off the 🧑🏭 .
Hello Trifles.
It is perfectly natural for you to feel frustration at LO not wanting to meet, especially as you have heavy virtual contact. The feeling will pass, hang in there.
“And what does that say about me that I choose people who I have no right to ask/demand anything from? Don’t answer, that’s a rhetorical question”.
Wow, I feel exactly the same. Its like I have all these expectations from LO in my mind, and when they are not met or partially met, I get disturbed. I am now trying to have close to zero expectations from LO (our contact is nowhere close to yours), hopefully that will work.
“And I think it upsets me because it makes me feel like he is just using me for validation”.
I get this feeling too, but then for my case, I think, I am also using her for validation, so LO and I are even.
Hope you feel better soon!
Thanks for the sympathy, ABCD. I appreciate it. My situation is a little different (or at least I fool myself that it is), because I don’t think he is an LO, but an old friend/TO (transferent object). Anyway, in the end, same difference!
I hear you on the mutual validation. I think it might be quite common – or else it’s just a part of normal relationships(?!): you are each other’s cheerleaders. It works that way with us too, we’re even. I have even told him this, or voiced this fear that we are using each other for validation. So basically all is out in the open, there is no ambiguity. Just the dissonance that he would rather keep me close but at a distance! On the hook, one might say. 🙈 (You might not have followed my (his) back story, but in a nutshell – wow, this is short! – his SO cheated on him, checked out of the relationship and said he’s welcome to do whatever he wants. He’s in denial.)
LaR, thanks for the smoothie! And P.S. I think the welder might be feeling some dissonance too – first you hire him, then you have security fend him off! 🤔 A little hot/cold there…
Thanks, Trifles. My LO and I have not expressed anything to each other, rather than praising. Both have SOs, and all know each other, so its a minefield.
Just curious, do you mostly interact socially, and physical meetings are rare? With me, we had physical + social interactions earlier. Now, its physical only, those too are sporadic.
Hi Trifles,
I understand! It feels like you are only good enough for some areas in his life, but not all?
But look at it from another perspective, he‘s quite honest with you here, and most probably it would be agonizing for him to meet you with his SO in tow. Maybe it’s not that he wants to exclude you but he just couldn’t handle it?
It’s a bit like LaR who says he cannot imagine his LO and SO communicating.
I‘m different, I always felt the urge to „normalize“ everything by getting all together, in the hope that it would normalize my feelings, and because it felt otherwise somehow like cheating for me. Cannot say if that was noble or stupid.
And of course you use each other for validation, that doesn’t exclude real affection for each other.
I can understand that it doesn’t sit well with you though. Wouldn’t with me either, but I‘m not sure 100% why, would have to think more about it.
ABCD, No, since we reconnected earlier this year, it’s only been virtual contact. (We both needed support with something. For me it was my LE.) He lives far enough away that physical meetings would require some arrangements. And that’s been fine with me, but when our travels bring us close-ish by coincidence, and we don’t meet, I don’t like it.
Mila, I think you hit the nail on the head: “It feels like you are only good enough for some areas in his life, but not all?”
You’re right that he has been honest and probably couldn’t handle it. You’re brave for bringing (or continuing to bring, after he changed into an LO) LO and SOs together.
It would actually be very strange to meet his SO (we knew each other before he met her). Probably because I’ve heard a lot of things about her, mostly bad. In effect, I really do not respect her at all. So I can’t say I would be looking forward to meeting her! (His fault for sharing so much about her.) I’m kind of doubtful his SO will even end up going on the trip with him (it’s not for awhile), but you never know, some people spend time together as a family even after the parents have broken up.
Hi Trifles,
in my first LE I had heard a lot of bad things about his SO too and there I brought everyone together only for one time and didn’t like that at all. There was mutual disclosure though, and there it felt even more like lying to bring them together than not to meet.
I don’t quite understand why he doesn’t want to meet even when his SO isn’t there. Ok, he says he would be tempted, but I still would like to meet the person I like that much that I text her daily? You could just have coffee in a public place.
Mila,
“I don’t quite understand why he doesn’t want to meet even when his SO isn’t there.“
Because this TO is not warm hearted YOU! I don’t know who he is but could cast some dark light on possible personal weakness, vulnerability or selfishness based on the facts given here. But is contemplating this TO/LO’s motives fertile? Would our compassionate understanding or change his decision, if totally/partially set?
The dynamic here to me (as I tend to see/prepare everything in the darkest light) is: an online confidant/“friend” refuses even a cup of coffee in public (with whatever excuses) after speaking to you (collective) day and night? WHAT are YOU going to DO (include mental doing) about IT❓❓
It’s very difficult and painful no matter which direction(s) Trifles resolves to handle it. It’s highly challenging to get out of such muddy water…
Snow, thank you for worrying about me. But I am fine. I’ve known him for ages before this and I know him pretty well. However, the fact is he is *still *just a friend currently so I can get over any frustrations, it’s not the end of the world. Now I feel like I have to defend him! 😅
My frustration is not in not knowing why he is like this, he has told me. It just annoys me despite that. He’s honest to a fault and he just couldn’t justify meeting me (someone he has some kind of feelings for) while still together with his SO.
Mila, well, he is planning the trip for the whole family. I’m just skeptical that she’ll come based on where they are in the relationship. The first time (when I was near his town) he would’ve had to drive out to meet me and (honest as he is) he would’ve needed to explain to her where he’s going. I’m sure she wouldn’t have cared, but he cared. As it turned out, he was booked elsewhere for that weekend anyway so he didn’t have to wrestle with the decision.
Trifles,
If you know him so well as friend, then can you express your frustration DIRECTLY/HONESTLY to him? Then forgive him? Can you suggest a cup of coffee in public even with kids & SO (put aside your dislike of her)?
TO or LO, your style of communication amounts to LE “addiction” which would raise a certain amount of expectation on your side, which seems not going to be met.
I’m not offended at all (despite I view the dynamic from a different perspective) that you define your TO/LO, as long as it helps with your mental state and moods, as long as it does not enable or elongate your frustrations and pains — that you know best during the first/last moments of your day.
Keep freely venting out here…
🫂 Triflers,
Ouch 😣 , ouch 😓, ouch!🤕
The word “frustration” or “upset” is undermining your profound sad feelings now. Your situation is very triggering to me personally (have been in your 👠 several times), and I’d feel “heart-wrenching/stabbing”. (Don’t worry, I’m not triggered now after that powerful dreams as I described to LE).
My view of your situation is very dark, infused with dry Stoic hues. My personal suggestions cannot be achieved over night or even over weeks. I’m afraid they would worsen your pains even further with my inability to sugar coat them. Our barman is really good with words.
I have some deadline to beat, so will be with you later. Meanwhile, taking as much smoothies to settle the tensed nerves. But consider an order of my 🍹 soon.
Hi Bewitched,
„ Goodness knows I have been talking your ears off in the last few days.“
Not at all. You‘ll never reach my level of blathering on here when in a crisis😂
I‘m not on a trip, I’m at home, he‘s being working as a guest since his position isn’t filled yet. The long business trip with LO is coming up next year, and I took your and others‘ advice to cross that bridge when I come to it and not worry about it now. It’s still a long time off.
I think the dissonance stems also from there being a certain degree of untruth in both layers. Limerence didn’t show a true picture of LO (too positive )the state of mind that got me out of limerence doesn’t show a true picture either ( too negative). I‘m meandering between these two without getting a grip on the true nature of my feelings towards him or seeing him neutrally, or better, there is also a neutral layer, but this one doesn’t really surface yet.
Thanks for getting my thoughts going on that curious state of mind.
I’ll continue one discussion started with LaR here, so that others might find it too if they’re interested in the topic.
“Would be interested to know the gist of what those books you read said about it (alternative relationship structures).”
Those books were narrated by women in their 40s who had a child/children, and the books were loosely based on their own experiences. They were both in the same rut: marriage seemed to be over but they wanted to keep their family intact for the children. Hence opening the relationship. So this kind of goes against your argument of monogamy for the kids’ sake.
“I guess the best I can come up with (and it may sound outdated and overgeneral) is that, evolution wise, mono relationships tend to provide the best stability to children.”
In strict monogamy their situation would have been an unhealthy environment for the kids AND eventually ended in divorce. Their main argument for open/poly relationships was to keep the main relationship and family intact.
What was interesting was that in both books, the men were at first hesitant. And that the men ended up quickly starting up one serious side relationship each, while the women were more adventurous with several less serious partners (flings). The books ended a few years into the new arrangements, so we don’t know what will happen some more years down the road. Except by trying to follow the writers’ real lives.
Here’s one of them that I recommend for the ladies (40+). “All fours” by Miranda July about a woman’s midlife crisis (and LE). It supports my theory about midlife hormones being a catalyst for an LE. It’s a “bit” (understatement) over the top, and you’ll have to deal with some cringey and crude descriptions (and language), so I don’t recommend it for the prudish. But it’s genius in its own way! July also made the acclaimed film “You and me and everyone we know”. I had never heard of her before seeing her book reviewed in Vanity Fair, but I’m definitely going to see that film.
Corrections: “Me and you and everyone we know”. And the writer July has since separated from her husband. I don’t know how much of her own life is in the book, but she interviewed a lot of people for it.
Trifles,
Yeah I thought my statement about monogamy and children was too simplistic at the time of writing it. Thanks for sharing this extra information about the books. I guess what you said looks at it from the different angle of where relationships often end up after the kids are older, and the relationship gets ‘opened up’. Maybe this is actually a way of keeping greater stability (compared to, say, the two parents being miserable or breaking up). I was coming at it more from a different standpoint of if people get into a polycule earlier in life (as seems to be becoming a bit more popular among ‘the young ‘uns) and then children come along and are somehow incorporated into the polycule, how that might work. This is interesting stuff that definitely has further to run as people’s thinking moves on over the generations. Good to think about things in alternative ways anyhow!
Hi Mila:
“Come to think of it (having fled in the lunchbreak too), „trauma“ might hit the nail on the spot (or whatever you say in English. Found out there‘s no“jump over one‘s own shadow“. Pity, it’s a great expression).
I think I’m a bit traumatized by this whole uncertainty/always a little too less warmth- LE/friendship”.
—–
I can totally relate to your feelings. I was in the same boat not too long ago, as you may remember from my recent posts. I too wanted to run away from that place, but I could not, so I stuck around, talking to other colleagues, trying to avoid LO, and yet not able to stop looking for her. I was depressed for well over a week.
How much more of him do you need to see? I think it was just this week – right?
hang in there, this will pass. Nothing is constant, not even our negative thoughts.
Sending lots of strength your way.
Thanks a lot!
„ How much more of him do you need to see? I think it was just this week – right?“
Yes, this week. I‘ll see a lot of him actually, just got invited again to another colleague tomorrow night with LO, and this time will go as I really like the colleagues SO, haven’t seen her in a while, and maybe it’s good to thaw the atmosphere a bit, I don’t know. Also, he’s coming to my place one evening etc.
I think the gathered anger or dislike that I’m still feeling and the inability to be warm stems from never having had a real break from this friendship to grieve or be angry. Since limerence was anyway “wrong” and I tried to maintain the friendship, I never could really live through my angry or sad feelings because we were always “good friends” on the outside.
But, as you say, it’ll all pass, nothing is constant, and maybe I’ll manage to get back to normal tomorrow. Today I was all but ignoring him, only once asking about his health. That’s not how I want to be behaving, actually, since he didn’t do me any harm on purpose.
I’m so glad to have you all,you are so patient with me agonizing here! Really, it helps very much just to feel understood.
Snow,
This one cycled through my playlist this morning. I think if anybody on LwL would appreciate it on LwL, it’s you.
“Elusive Butterfly” – Bob Lind (1968)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbuC9hX2XAk
This is the only known recording of the complete song. The version released on radio was heavily cut down.
I find it very poignant.
Thanks for the song, LE! I like the title and got most of words of it, but missed a couple of crucial ones.
I’m trying to figure out why the singer says, “it’s burden too heavy to carry”? Your LO2 is in it, right?
Even if catching butterfly is elusive or even painful, it will never shy us limerents away, our DNA codes the chase. Chasing them in reverie or dreams would bring the sensation as in reality.
Correction: would bring the same exalting sensation as in reality….
Snow,
Here are the lyrics:
You might wake up some morning
To the sound of something moving past your window in the wind
And if you’re quick enough to rise, you’ll catch the fleeting glimpse of someone’s fading shadow
Out on the new horizon, you may see the floating motion of a distant pair of wings
And if the sleep has left your ears, you might hear footsteps running through an open meadow
(chorus)
Don’t be concerned, it will not harm you
It’s only me pursuing something I’m not sure of
Across my dreams, with nets of wonder
I chase the bright elusive butterfly of love
My name is not worth knowing, it’s enough to know I’m just a willing slave to something free
You might have seen me once or twice between the walls of grown-up tears and children’s laughter
You might have seen me running through the long abandoned ruins of someone you used to be
And if you’ve felt the brief caress of wings that fluttered past with something running after
(chorus)
You might have heard my footsteps echo softly in the distance through the canyons of your mind
I might have even called your name as I ran searching after something to believe in
Though it’s too late for changing, someday you might look back exploring times you left behind
If you remember something there that glided past you followed close by heavy breathing
(chorus)
The morning sun is nodding to the prisoner underneath whose restless questions are his bars
And all the clouds between the two look down bewildered as to what he blindly follows
You might have stood in silence, and heard symphonies of wandering and wondered whose they are
They’re compositions of a madman trying hard to fill the part of him that’s hollow
(chorus)
The open eyes of evening watch the penny-ante festival of fools below the moon
The clumsy joker tries in vain to catch the prize before a thousand laughing princes
The night gives way to morning, and returns to bring the darkness on the heels of afternoon
But if the night should bring the feeling of a distant game of tag upon your senses…
(chorus)
I’ve always liked the song but I only learned about the full version of it less than 10 years ago. When I heard it then, I was in a far different place.
A few verses certainly could apply to LO #2 but I wouldn’t bet that they do. After all this time, I’d be surprised if she could still spell my name.
And, I caught the butterfly.
Wow, the song is going to blow my mind to a different plain —
“It’s only me pursuing something I’m not sure of
Across my dreams, with nets of wonder
I chase the bright elusive butterfly of love”
Captures my LE so much…
Thank you so much for posting it here for me! 🙏 (two verse orders are reversed based on the singing)
Snow,
I thought that you’d like it.
I copied the lyrics from a site. I didn’t catch they got two verses out of order.
There are a lot of songs out there that relate to limerence but this one is different.
LE,
I had a fabulous dream last night in which I was a some kind of leader busy going around inside a huge women’s camp/facility listening to their life stories and hardship…
I can not remember all details except one: a group of young peachy faced prostitutes, suddenly in front of my eyes, transformed into very old, wrinkle faced old (Japanese?) ladies all in dark grayish clothing in front of a bunch of vanity mirrors, huddled together sadly looking at me … I felt my heart tightened…. I lingered in that chamber longer trying to comforting them….but can not remember what I said…
Upon waking up, I felt such a peace in my neural system, and heart, so long missed….
I couldn’t help but feel strongly now that the Lind’s song you posted for me did something to me in my Unconscious last night… it was the last thing in my waking conscious.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family!
Thank you, Snow!
I hope the feeling continues.
I wonder what Lind was thinking when he wrote it. People just don’t come up with stuff like that.
Kind of like Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah.”
Songs like those are on a different plane if you can relate to them.
LE,
Totally agree with you about such jewel songs, yet it’s so reliable to my own soul-chewing journey…
I’ll try my might to continue my slight delight… 👻
Happy 🦃!
LE,
Just a little report: the dream effect continues, I feel so settled and “joyful” inside with zero new, external happened to me.
I heard, not sure if it’s Jungian theory, that if one’s mantle/behavior could take place in dreams — in one’s Unconscious, then effects would be many times more powerful than in reality. I dismissed or doubted it, but ever since 7/7 spa dream, I’ve wondered if such a theory has a lot of truth.
I have, along with my close classmates, remembered so many of my dreams (I liked telling them those vivid plots and scenes), majority of which were nightmares in which I was either trying to running away from being caught by cultural/fictional enemies or from imminent death. The primary atmosphere/theme was always extreme anxiety and fear (like encountering 3 tigers three nights ago). Peachy dreams were so rare in my whole life that once in a blue moon when I was powerful like an empathetic/healing leader or magical like a magician in my dreams, the realistic me went through a kind of psychological or spiritual metamorphosis. If I were religious, I would have believed that a God had visited in my slumbers! (I know and define myself Spiritual, not religious at all! )
During my latest/only LE, despite all the barriers and dark elements, I had much more detailed, sweet dreams (more than the previous, positive ones added up together), in which ET, ironically the most unavailable LO, fulfilled my exact unmet wishes/needs from my parents or previous romances.
Because they occurred in the Unconscious, my psyche believed and accepted them, thus the healing effects of those dreams, originated and drawn from my imagination or perhaps LE reverie — I helplessly imagined that if the barrier were absent, those dreams could/would become realistic. Of course, intellectually I know 120% those dreams narratives never occurred in reality, but to my psyche, they DID!
Now in the post LE, the old memories, new songs and poems continue bringing me to those unimaginable dreaming world to meet my “true” psychological enemies or undergo some kind of mental/spiritual metamorphosis, helping my SELF become more Stoic — spiritually and psychologically rely on my evolving SELF, while naturally feeling more willing and ready (meaning others’ negative situations would less or not trigger me anymore) to be of a help to others, should they need any.
Just some passing thoughts for the chilly and rainy evening at 🏡 ☺️
Elusive Butterfly
Bob Lind
You might wake up some morning
To the sound of something moving past your window in the wind
And if you’re quick enough to rise, you’ll catch the fleeting glimpse of someone’s fading shadow
Out on the new horizon, you may see the floating motion of a distant pair of wings
And if the sleep has left your ears, you might hear footsteps running through an open meadow
(chorus) 🎶 —
Don’t be concerned, it will not harm you
It’s only me pursuing something I’m not sure of
Across my dreams, with nets of wonder
I chase the bright elusive butterfly of love
You might have heard my footsteps echo softly in the distance through the canyons of your mind
I might have even called your name as I ran searching after something to believe in
Though it’s too late for changing, someday you might look back exploring times you left behind
If you remember something there that glided past you followed close by heavy breathing
(chorus) 🎶 —
My name is not worth knowing, it’s enough to know I’m just a willing slave to something free
You might have seen me once or twice between the walls of grown-up tears and children’s laughter
You might have seen me running through the long abandoned ruins of someone you used to be
And if you’ve felt the brief caress of wings that fluttered past with something running after
(chorus) 🎶 —
The morning sun is nodding to the prisoner underneath whose restless questions are his bars
And all the clouds between the two look down bewildered as to what he blindly follows
You might have stood in silence, and heard symphonies of wandering and wondered whose they are
They’re compositions of a madman trying hard to fill the part of him that’s hollow
(chorus) 🎶 —
The open eyes of evening watch the penny-ante festival of fools below the moon
The clumsy joker tries in vain to catch the prize before a thousand laughing princes
The night gives way to morning, and returns to bring the darkness on the heels of afternoon
But if the night should bring the feeling of a distant game of tag upon your senses…
Don’t be concerned, it will not harm you
It’s only me pursuing something I’m not sure of
Across my dreams, with nets of wonder
I chase the bright elusive butterfly of love
I chase the bright elusive butterfly of love.
*****
“The morning sun is nodding to the prisoner underneath whose restless questions are his bars
And all the clouds between the two look down bewildered as to what he blindly follows
You might have stood in silence, and heard symphonies of wandering and wondered whose they are
They’re compositions of a madman trying hard to fill the part of him that’s hollow“
🚪⛓️🎼🐦🔥🎶🪟
Once I caught such a butterfly 🦋 , but she flew through the unknown hollow part in my Self .…
Now, I’ve finally repaired the hole and is letting the imprisoned epic symphonie fly out of the unmarried door 🚪 and unlocked window… 🪟
🐦🔥
As if some little Arctic flower
Emily Dickinson
As if some little Arctic flower,
Upon the polar hem,
Went wandering down the latitudes,
Until it puzzled came
To continents of summer,
To firmaments of sun,
To strange, bright crowds of flowers,
And birds of foreign tongue!
I say, as if this little flower
To Eden wandered in —
What then? Why, nothing, only,
Your inference therefrom!
*****
She is then sprinkled with kissing of bumble bees 🐝 and egging of elusive butterflies 🦋
🐦🔥
Hello LaR. Thanks for your advise, I really appreciate it.
The perceived “hot” and “cold” interactions keep us hooked to LO, right? It sure was true for me.
In the past, the so called cold interaction used to have a negative effect on me, and I used to just take it without offering resistance.
From now onwards, when my mind/inner voice starts to get all negative post a cold interaction, I will counter it by saying that there is no need to worry, and to look at the big picture, that we will get another chance to catch up, it will happen naturally. And that I have not done anything to annoy LO, she has a life too. So, just take it easy.
I will let you know how it goes, but it does sound like a promising approach. Cheers.
Hi LaR. I forgot to add, thanks for the hot n’ cold drink!
ABCD,
How you put that sounds roughly what I was thinking.
I am always conscious of a couple of things when I start suggesting things to others. 1. I have unavoidable LO contact several days a week, 2. I am entrenched in this camp: “LO was my long term friend before LE and I want/believe she can be that after LE too”.
This set of circumstances means my advice goes against the textbook, which would say LC or NC is usually the quickest way to get over limeremce. That could well be better for you, but you’ll know yourself best.
It helps me to ‘live with’ limerence more than ‘push out’ limerence – my mood is OK, the hot-cold cycles are less. The feelings remain but my ability to handle them and ‘act normal’ is improved.
“The perceived “hot” and “cold” interactions keep us hooked to LO, right?”
Interesting question that I can only half answer. Yes, they do. So now if my interactions feel less hot and cold, is that the start of me ‘unhooking’? I don’t know, as it is quite early in the stage where I stopped telling myself the hot and cold stories. I got there for a while, slipped back, and then now seem to have regained it.
I do best when the contact frequency is fairly regular but the time period on each occasion is not excessive – then it’s like I can get the dopamine at a lower, more consistent and safe level. If I am deprived of any contact or deprive myself, I get big lows. If I allow too much contact, I get highs which then are followed by lows. It is like trying to calibrate a spirit level at exactly the right point. And much of it I can’t control.
I also don’t have the added complication that you do of open SO/LO lines of communication. I’ll be honest – I don’t think I could have stayed as close to my LO as I have, if that was the case.
Hi LaR:
It looks like I will need to adopt a ‘live with limerence’ approach, because, although contact has reduced, it will not be zero. So, the trigger will be there to exert itself, from time to time. Navigating this as best as possible (still trying to figure how to do this), whenever it occurs, is what is the aim.
“I also don’t have the added complication that you do of open SO/LO lines of communication. I’ll be honest – I don’t think I could have stayed as close to my LO as I have, if that was the case”.
This is good for me, as it keeps a barrier. I feel LO feels the same way too.
Yes, like you said, the idea is to flatten out both the high and low curves.
Hello Phoenix. Thanks for your wishes. I am doing better now.
When I feel low, I like to take short walks, these really help.
Looking forward to the weekend! Great weather out, so time for some exercise!
Hi Mila. Thanks for sharing your update. I was wondering how your work with LO was going.
You are doing really really well. I can’t handle 1 LO interaction, it sets me back a couple of steps, before I can move forward again.
I get your feelings towards LO. Sometimes, we just have conflicting and complicated emotions towards LO. In past events, when LO has been in proximity, and we have ended up not talking, I have felt low. If LO has attended, but not been proximity, those have gone much better. If LO has not attended, those have gone the best.
Does your SO know that your LO is your LO? Please feel free to ignore this question.
Just tell yourself the week will very soon be over, you are almost at the finishing line. I am sure you will come out stronger from this experience.
Have a good weekend. I can offer you a “hot and cold” drink 🙂
Hi ABCD,
(and LaR since you had a similar topic)
I think my SO suspects a bit that he is or was my LO, but even more that I am my LO‘s LO (he didn’t say that, but that’s my guess). I think he suspected the last LO more. With both he has developed a bit of an aversion or likes them less over time (judging from remarks), and I think it’s because he sensed something, but he would never call me out on it or want me to not be friends with them. I think he basically trusts me not to cheat on him and love him always more (which is true).
But maybe that’s only my guess and not true.
He said once that he was wary about my LO at the beginning of our friendship, but back then I could reply honestly that there was nothing to worry about. Limerence developed only later.
ABCD,
my problem is maybe a bit different from yours since at the moment it’s me who is colder, but I don’t want to be, or I want to keep that friendship, but at the moment feel not able to be warmer, which kind of hurts me (and probably him too). Better today, but still strange.
Make mine a hot drink, please…
Trifles,
(Before I start, I want to thank the Amoor 🐄 Inn patrons for looking after Trifles so well today. As a measure of thanks, drinks are on the house all weekend if you can peel yourself away from the welder long enough).
I truly understand your frustration Trifles. I am here to offer the token male perspective. Take it or leave it obviously.
First, I think there is a ton of denial on his side about things between him and his SO. He will only get over that in his own time, frustrating as that is. And I get that.
There is often more to things than it seems. Part of me would dearly love to step over lines with LO. A larger part of me knows that doing that would really harm all of me, LO and SO. To avoid stepping over any big lines, I have to not step over any small lines. The genie can’t be let out of the bottle. So I can’t let the lid come off. If it did, I don’t know what it would happen
next.
Why am I telling you this? Because I want you to know that when he says “we can’t meet up”, he doesn’t mean “I don’t want to meet up”. It means “if we meet up, I let the genie out of the bottle and then who knows what I can’t control”. He’d rather not face that.
We pigeonhole people. A text relationship feels safe to him. Anything more doesn’t.
The point is you are ahead of the game in realising what his SO’s actions mean. He is still in denial.
What does it say about you??Nothing, Trifles. It says everything about him.
As you saw, Snow held me to account lately as someone in (sort of) your TO’s position about how it may feel to someone like my LO (?in your position?). I took that very seriously. I’d do anything not to hurt LO but it’s hard. All I can say is I try so hard to be consistent.
Your TO knows that if he came and met you, he wouldn’t or mighn’t be able to resist temptation. All this against a backdrop of his denial about his marriage. You see that, he maybe doesn’t.
Keep talking to us.
Putting a few bottles under the Inn Fatuation bar for you all for the weekend. If the welder don’t tell, I will never know.
❄️
After my very delayed sermon, she needs a good 🍸
I will leave that in your extremely capable hands.
Trifles,
The midnight drink 🍹 for you here:
2oz, vodka
2oz, blackberry/boysenberry
2oz, kiwi 🥝 /passion fruit
2oz, mango🥭 juice
Some fresh 🍒
Take 2 or 3 piece of French macaron.
*****
While sipping your 🍹 , just ponder a little bit over how you could gradually SELF-validate more while sympathizing/validating your long-term TO, who sounds quite lost in his “messy” life. Remember what LaR said, he has a much more serious problems, which you could only sideline comfort him, but NEVER fundamentally solve them for him — it’s challenging enough to keep your own neck above your shared water….
From my own Eastern point of view, if one really wants to give something to one’s close friend and thus to feel content/happy about it, one cannot and TRULY NOT expect/silently desire “ANYTHING” in return (easy said than done). Otherwise, one is setting oneself for disappointment and emotional/mental pains. If one relies on another, LO/TO/close friend, for verbal or behavioral validation, one can never grow strong enough to stand on one’s own (mental/emotional) feet.
I’ve been practicing myself to soar on my own growing 🪽s as you all have been witnessing…. 🐦🔥
Have a sound slumber!
„ What does it say about you??Nothing, Trifles. It says everything about him.“
This, and this
„ if one really wants to give something to one’s close friend and thus to feel content/happy about it, one cannot and TRULY NOT expect/silently desire “ANYTHING” in return (easy said than done). Otherwise, one is setting oneself for disappointment and emotional/mental pains.“
although seemingly a bit contradictory, are what I took from your posts for myself today, thank you LaR and Snow, although it wasn’t meant for me, it fits very well.
I made the same mistake as always and expected something, but this time I really got it that he is a very limited person and that I cannot expect any honest communication. It’s not about limerence here anymore, it’s about friendship. I think it’s not possible to be close friends with him any more. Friends, yes, maybe.
We had a short altercation per text yesterday evening and now please hold your thumbs that I manage to be kind and nice today since I don’t want to show any weakness or personal stuff to him anymore.
Mila, I highlighted exactly the same takeaways! Thank you LaR and Snow.
I think it’s natural to fall back on our expectations. But people then give us reality checks to adjust those expectations. I’m sure it was nothing too bad via text. We are humans with our personal stuff and feelings.
Hi Trifles and LaR,
well, it was bad though 🙈
in a way. Might have finished the friendship as it was.
„We are humans with our personal stuff and feelings“
He‘s not, or he doesn’t want me to be, or both.
We had a nice evening at my place with my SO, LO was finally relaxed and I let down my guard and just made the same mistake I already make with him, I assume he‘s someone he‘s not. He texted nicely with thank you for evening and company, on which I replied nicely and added something personal- nothing exciting or limerent, actually something normal not even for a close friendship, but definitely going on a personal level after all the stilted days before. You all would laugh in disbelief if you read the following text exchange, if it wouldn’t be sad.
I don’t know literally anyone who would be like that. This morning before work when I read his last reply , I just wrote him that it’s all my mistake for forgetting that he cannot or doesn’t want to talk about anything emotional or personal, and that we just leave it be and see you in a minute.
Of course I didn’t manage to be kind or warm, I said good morning and that was it, and left early. But I just don’t feel like it. I really believe that it IS my mistake in always assuming or expecting something that simply isn’t there.
There’s another thing to go through today and then he‘ll be off, thank God.
Yes, I learned a lot, and i actually think it was a very good thing that he was here and showed his face/hand (?) so plainly, I think this time it really hit home and I might be able to finally get a real closure.
LAR, you cannot really take this as a model. I think types like my LO are hard to find , with any normally wired person things would be different, as they surely are with your LO.
You could keep in mind though, that we limerents tend to assign character traits and shine to our LOs that might not withstand reality.
I want to add that I just checked the text exchange from yesterday/today again, and I think I was really ok. I wrote in a fury but seem to have controlled myself pretty well, the texts are not over the top aggressive, not blaming, couldn’t have written them better in a calmer mood.
So, something to feel content with, I expressed myself ok, and now nothing more to do for me (in earlier times, I wished I said it differently, had the urge to express myself again etc, which made me restless and regretful).
At the upcoming event today where we‘ll meet I’ll talk to my younger colleague friend who wants to tell me some personal stuff (there ARE people who want to talk about personal stuff..), so I won’t have much time for him, tomorrow he‘ll be gone. This really was a hard week for me, really. I hope it pays off and I’ll have peace of mind now.
Mila,
I feel like you have learned stuff this week. The emoji you need is 💪💪💪
Stay strong (and NC) for the weekend.
You never asked for this responsibility, but if I ever had to nominate a role model on LwL for my lofty “lose limerence, keep the MFF” ambition, it has been you, and how it progresses with xLO. It is saddening for that reason to hear where it’s going. That said, I do really understand. You have carried a heavy load for making a friendship work with someone who does not communicate ‘like you or I do’. While you were limerent you could do that. Now you’re not, you can’t and shouldn’t have to. Like Trifles’ situation, it is not OK for these men just to use you ladies for side validation.
If I ‘used’ my MFF in this way, I can say without question that she (an assertive person with no time for time wasting) would throw me shade until I changed my behaviour.
There is something really odd from this distant place of observation, about how he clings onto his old job that he has now left, too.
Well done for the realisations you have come to, even though I am sure the process has been painful.
Hi LaR,
I think he doesn’t consciously just use me for validation. I do think he cares as much for me as he can care for anyone, and he values our friendship very high.
It’s just me who cannot value it like it is, because for me, friendship is obviously something else than it is for him.
All,
„ if one really wants to give something to one’s close friend and thus to feel content/happy about it, one cannot and TRULY NOT expect/silently desire “ANYTHING” in return (easy said than done). Otherwise, one is setting oneself for disappointment and emotional/mental pains.“
I get this in a sense of ‘if I buy my friend lunch today, I shouldn’t do it expecting that they will buy me lunch tomorrow’. But I think if we get into a friendship and everything is one way, that would sound the 📣📣📣 . I have harboured too many such friendships in my life – not so much now. Mentionitis alert, but even if I remove the limerence glasses, this is why I like MFF so much as a friend – it is beautifully mutual and I get as much back as I give. Not if I ask for it, just more naturally. So I get the principle of what you’re saying, Snow, but couldn’t adopting that approach leave the person with lots of friends who drain the mental bucket, instead of filling it up or at least holding the level steady?
Woke up earlier due to a small (but significant?) nightmare caused by my curiosity —
I went to a men’s only dorm on the 3rd or 4th floor. The hallway was wide, but dark, damp, and empty. Near the stairway, I came across a small cockroach and stepped it to death. I was curious to see what a men’s dorm would be like and intended to walk a square circle through and then leave from the same stairway (I lived briefly in a similar dorm in COO).
A tall Western man (from a Netflix show) came out of his room facing the stairway. He friendly warned me with a smile, “It’s dark (and dangerous?). Nothing much to see.” I think I said, “I’m not afraid”. So I continued alone, turning right.
Just walking down a few meters, I saw another small cockroach but did not pay attention. But it suddenly jumped up and stung on the back of my neck, trying to waggle in. WOW, it hurts! I didn’t know the cockroach could jump high and sting so painfully! I was furious, cursed, angrily pulled its sharp body out of my neck and stepped it to death!
Then, I woke up in darkness, pissed off a little. (A lot to be interpreted by those images!)
*****
LaR,
I said “to give something to one’s close friend”…. If someone does not “naturally/mutually” return your generosity in return (with equivalent amount, style or spirit), can he or she still be called or treated as your “close friend”?
I also said in the past, 3 times is trying amount (I grew up with such “ritual”) whether one can be a potential, trustworthy, close friend. After that, if you (collective) continue giving to someone who just takes and takes, then you can be classified as a masochist, IMO.
This is largely applied in tangible material giving. In mental/emotional support, besides therapists or priests, I wonder if one can always give without expecting getting back similar support, in quality or quantity. What happens or should take place if this “close friend” is not equipped with our kind of mindset or emotional style/intelligence or due to some morality restriction, e.g Mila’s MFF or Trifles’ TO?
In LE, limerents surely give the way too much time and energy to LO, externally or internally with an astronomical hope to be reciprocated; the pair-bonding desire dictates our behaviors, regardless LO’s quality. But friendship is different. I never got upset when my good friends visiting the town on business trip but occasionally could not squeeze their busy time to get together with me, which they would not do all the time. If I visit their town, I always reserve time in advance to see them.
Trifles,
“I highlighted exactly the same takeaways!”
The saloon does takeaways?! I guess that’s one way to steer clear of (ma)lingering welders.
Mila,
You’d never know who were on my mind when I posted my views to a specific LwLer. 😋
I guessed so a bit;)
But cannot agree for real
life. I wouldn’t call it a close friendship if there‘s no basis of mutual connection on a certain level. Completely selfless loving without any expectations, that’s for the enlightened spirits, but not for me, maybe with the exception of my kids.
Still, I try to only blame myself for my expectations since it’s the sensible way to go.
Mila,
“I wouldn’t call it a close friendship if there‘s no basis of mutual connection on a certain level.”
Me, neither! Especially in mental and emotional capacity domain.
“Completely selfless loving without any expectations, that’s for the enlightened spirits, but not for me, maybe with the exception of my kids.”
There is so such a thing as “selfless” love; without SELF, what does one love with? Empty words and robotic loving actions? I believer, a mother needs a strong sense of Self and of what to give or reserve while raising healthy kids.
To elaborate a bit of notion in my “giving” in present days (unfortunately not in the past when I was an introvert, anxious people/dates/bf/LO pleaser) — to check whether such a “giving” would FIRST bring instant pleasure or lasting joy to my psyche, regardless what other side(s) would do. e.g. a half of my posting here are “monologues” in nature.
If my casual or intended ramblings get some responses — nice plus ✅; if none – non-upsetting ; if disagreeable — a stimuli to (re)search what had triggered inside me. The GAIN to me lies on active writing/posting itself — self-examining and reflecting, renewing an old or creating a new part of my trivial life. (No idea how many or few are actually reading — I don’t read every other posts, but 3 or 4 times of my own).
That’s what I call “giving/doing” without expecting from other side(s) or Self-validating (my exposed self). This process fearfully began in 2018 Fall, and progressed so beneficially since 7/7 right after COO trip.
To me with experiences, what brings terrible mental/emotional pains in life or in LE, with or without humanistic reasons, is trying to unwisely CONTROL UNCONTROLLABLE, and NOT trying to wisely EXPECT UNEXPECTED (worsts). Natural or neutered desires could be dealt and lived with peace, even when they are unmet/unfulfilled.
I’m glad to hear that you’re feeling better today.
Type: “There is No such a thing as “selfless” love.”
“Natural or neutered desires could be dealt and lived with IN peace”
Thank you LaR -Snow was right, you do have just the words I need! I think you are right about everything. I just needed someone to remind me, because my position is not always easy. Thanks for taking the time out of your double shift (day job and bar shift) to reply. 😉
Snow, thank you for the cocktail made with ❤️. I think I understand where you are coming from, especially with you having had similar experiences. I have actually expressed my frustration to TO and he apologized but stood firm. Like LaR said, those are just his boundaries. I do understand – family is priority number one and he has to do what he feels is best for his family, even if it sounds ridiculous to me/you. (Before reading LaR’s reply I was going to write that I’m sure that to someone else, his reasoning sounds perfectly just, and even noble. And what LaR said supports that.)
I think he might be confused about a lot of things, but he will have to come to his own realisations.
LaR, yes of course you can get takeaway! Sometimes I need my morning smoothie (with either a side of kick-a$$ or puns depending on who’s on bar duty) to go.
“Before reading LaR’s reply I was going to write that I’m sure that to someone else, his reasoning sounds perfectly just, and even noble. And what LaR said supports that.”
Yes, but only logical *to his mind*. Whether it is a reasonable thing to expect of you, or whether you choose to shift the boundaries now to create a different expectation, that is another thing. It doesn’t read reasonable if I take your point of view. I don’t know if that came across well in my reply after the double shift (plus added bonus heavy level and depth of LO interaction in the day 🤪)
LaR,
With your reasoning and analogy— you as Trifles’TO, she your LO, what would you do if you were on this trip? Would you have a cup of coffee in public and then keep carrying an online EA with her?
My curiosity never stops… 🤔
Snow, ha ha, LaR and I are already carrying on an online EA, didn’t you know? (Actually, I think you’ve been the one who has been insinuating it…)
Now about that coffee, LaR?
Well, your TO knows your physique, bit LaR does not. He has his MFF messing his head almost daily at work, and SO at home. 😉
EA without a physical Glimmer maybe possible, but not LE, IMO. I didn’t insinuate anything , at one point, you asked LaR to pretend you as his LO. 😁
“…at one point, you asked LaR to pretend you as his LO.” Ha, I didn’t remember that, but now it does sound vaguely familiar… It must have been for a very valid scientific experiment. 👍
If it were that easy to transfer limerence, I would be rich!
“He has his MFF messing his head almost daily at work, and SO at home.”
With that and the sheep herding + bar tending, no wonder he’s exhausted!
That’s why he stored away his heavy duty ploughing machine, which he I tended to cover with the patented ❄️ blanket, forgetting it is attached with the 🔥 bird…
Trifles,
LwL as a transference LO could hardly work for a while anyone, IMO, unless you can prove it otherwise to DrL.
But using LwL as a “Therapy room” with brave, limited emotional/mental disclosure might work for some ghosts.
Heavy duty ploughing machine? Gosh.
Mila, the owner’s self-description, not mine… ☺️
Snow,
If Trifles wanted to sup coffee with me (arguably she’d have to be mad, look at the fate of the last poor woman who did that), then as a gentleman, how
could I possibly refuse? Trifles, it’s a date 😉
Anyway – what are you all talking about me for on my weekend off? There’s a hungry welder sat on his own in the corner booth, wanting to use his blowtorch.
LaR,
“If Trifles wanted to sup coffee with me (arguably she’d have to be mad, look at the fate of the last poor woman who did that), then as a gentleman, how could I possibly refuse? Trifles, it’s a date 😉”
If you behave like Trifles’ TO, I will certainly 🫡 LaR 🧠 🔨❗️
Who was this “last poor woman” who “sup coffee” with you❓in LwL?
The lonely 🧑🏭 in the booth of our Saloon? 🗣️ Adam 🗣️ Limerent Emeritus! 📣 Amoor Inn needs your presence and protection…
Snow,
Don’t worry, there is no skeleton under the floor of the LwL coffeehouse. When I said about the fate of the last woman who supped coffee with me, it was a poorly done joke about my real life LO.
In Trifles’ TO’s position I wouldn’t meet for coffee if the wife and kids are around (though from what she tells us, he is deluding himself about his wife). To change the dynamic of a relationship that has been text based into anything else would take some time and investment. For that reason I’d say that if he wants to meet her it would be separate from the family thing. But I have no idea what level of geographical distance they have between them and if that could be possible.
LaR,
What a relief to know there is no Skelton hidden in LwL coffeehouse. Is our welder 👩🏭 still breathing somewhere? LE’s responsible for his appearance.
Trifles said that she knows TO for a long time and also his SO before their marriage. So it sounds cold/inhuman to me to refuse a cup of coffee as emotional intimate “friends” of day-n-night confidants. How many opportunities of such possible coffee taking in their geographical distance?
TO is mot only delusional, coward, but also relies on/uses Trifles for validation/rebounding bag; then can’t even appreciate her valuable friendship via a cup of coffee in public. I feel pain for her now…
On subway to work a full day, sorry about any typo.. .
No word of the welder today.
And Bewitched has gone a bit quiet.
Coincidence? 🤔
Hey LaR,
Haha. Not a coincidence. I have been keeping tabs on everything, including all mentions of my welder. He is getting an awful time from you lot!
Rather than torrid goings on, I have jyst been feeling relieved for Mila. I thought she might have been left a bit bereft after saying goodbye, she is actually relieved. Phew!
More of this freedom in her future, I hope.
I am doing pretty well myself, althpigh musing on how come I am still so fond of my MFF, without giving much thought to him. Its interesting. I wonder how its going to play out from here🤔.
Christmas is always a massive trigger for me, for a few reasons.
Nothing is coincidental in life on or off line…
Now, Sunday drinks and Mila’s joyful bakes are on house, while 🧑🏭 is smoothing with Bewiteched…
Smoothing or smooching?
Here might be the reason why Bewitched is so calm with her MFF, she‘s got distracting handymen at her beck and call.
Snow and LaR, you’re having an interesting conversation! Mind if I join in? 😉 To clarify, he hasn’t planned to be in my town exactly. We would still have to go out of our way to meet. And it’s not for quite some time. I will wait to see how this shakes out. Who knows, we might have lost touch by then, his situation might be different OR he might perceive the situation differently at that point. Like we determined, he has a lot of things on his mind at the moment, his whole life could be falling apart.
And as such, I don’t think he would recognize himself in Snow’s description (“delusional, coward, but also relies on/uses Trifles for validation/rebound”). …Or I don’t know, maybe he has more humility than most! 😉 Sure, he could see me as a “fantasy escape” from the state of his life right now, but if it doesn’t bother me too much…
I do understand that you see this one behavior as being very telling and negating anything else nice that he does. And that’s fine. In any case, I can have different kinds of friends, some only at a distance. If the dynamic starts to annoy me too much, I reserve the right to step back a little.
PS. Bewitched, give us back our welder! He was just getting the hang of preparing those flaming Zombies (it’s a drink)!
Bewitched,
„I thought she might have been left a bit bereft after saying goodbye, she is actually relieved. Phew!“
Not bereft, I even feel that I gained something. There might come a need to grieve about this friend I lost that I never had , so to say, but at the moment I feel nothing of that sort. I even think it’s possible for me to be fond of him again, like you, after I have digested the whole truth.
Maybe you just weren’t in the need of once again being shown what your LO isn’t, you just left that step out and progressed to feeling fond but not dependent.
I am pleased to receive news that the welder is learning how to pour you some decent drinks, as well as his more dubious activities this weekend. I had been a bit worried about leaving the bar in his hands, tbh. But what with that and Mila’s lim-free biscuits, it sounds like you’re all having a jolly old time.
Trifles, I may write more on this later, but I don’t share Snow’s assessment of your TO’s character or of your role in it. Snow, I totally respect you feel different. Most of what I feel can be found in my original (late Friday) reply to Trifles.
Trifles, as much as an internet 👻 can reasonably do (even one apparently in an EA with you 🤪), I trust you know what you’re doing and that if it became more harm than good to you, you’d step back/away from TO.
Now go get that welder back off Bewitched and demand another round all of you!
LaR, no need to reiterate your stance re: TO. I think I understood your point of view. Unless you want to debate it on a more abstract/issue level with Snow. I’m fine with that!
PS. Sorry about the small fire at the Inn over the weekend. Chalk it up to product development (that torch was a bit big for the precise work required for the Zombies).
PPS. “welder back off Bewitched” or to “back off of…”
Trifles,
I don’t have much time right now to reply in a thorough fashion but want to tell my impression towards your situation.
1. I don’t know the history and depth of your friendship with TO. I’m not quite clearly what or how you benefit from it.
2. You speak or consider for him or his unstable situation a bit too much, which put you in a passive, not in control situation for your mindset, moods, or actions.
3. If you’re happy or enjoy whatever is going on without feeling hurt, then go ahead. But thats not what you described or expresses here.
4. I have been through the similar situation with LO5, who even confessed that men’s selfishness or “darkness” can be beyond our (women) imagination.
I’m Stoic. So When unknown is involved, my mind goes to the possible worsts in any scenarios and prepares for them. It doesn’t mean they will happen, but anything, bright or dark, is possible. To protect oneself, what needs to be done?
This is to answer LaR, as well, who tends to see more positive light in men like himself. “Delusions”is the assessment you used for TO.
At this point, I reserve my views.
Mila, Bewitched corrected my spelling, its smooching 💋💋💋
Got to run!
Mila,
You have a way with words: “feeling fond but not dependent”. Yes, this is it, exactly.
I always thought he brought out my softer side and this is another example, so perhaps I am more dependent than I think. Lets see what Christmas brings. I can hardly keep my mind on him, even when I try these days. But i have a soft spot for him still, so lets see, if he wanted to, he could probably start all of this up again, to some degree. So I need to stay away from him. But he is a loyal husband. Maybe a bit like your LO1? And I am loyal too, so I feel safe in that knowledge.
Mila, I feel your relief in your recent posts, not so much from the very first one today, which got my kind working and worrying a little bit, but the other posts since then show how the weight has lifted. I am super happy for you. I remember when I had my first taste of proper freedom, probably this Summer (after being at his home and deciding it was over once and for all).
Mila, I hope you continue to enjoy you new-found freedom. A limerence free cocktail at last! What joys are in store to replace the whirling thoughts with others, that are more productive for your wellbeing….!🏅🎊✨️
Wait – Trifles you’re saying there is a fire in the inn and there are zombies in residence there?
How has a weekend of annual leave degenerated into Shaun of the Dead??
Snow,
I am not necessarily positive about TO, I am just conscious I only know limited facts about the case and that the guy sounds like he has a lot of conflicting things going on. If ‘delusions’ or ‘deluding’ was my word, I meant delusions about his marriage. His wife has checked out but he won’t face it. T has told us a few times that things between her and TO are a fairly two-way street and that as things stand she doesn’t want to exit the situation. So I don’t think anyone is delusional about that aspect, but about the marital aspect. Not having kids myself, I have no clue what it must feel like to exit a marriage when there are kids involved, but I imagine it creates a complete emotional hailstorm.
LaR, no no, the Flaming Zombie is a drink! It has four different kinds of rum, I think you’d like it. The alcohol just needs to be set on fire. Turns out the welder’s equipment worked a little too well for the task.
But no big deal, I’m sure you’d had time to get insurance for the Inn, right?
Thank God! I’ve only been open a week and the insurance paperwork looks suspect.
I thought I was going to have a hire a whole load more tradespeople for a while there to repair the damage / spread the lurve around.
Snow,
I know you only get a jumbled version of events based on what I feel like sharing at that moment. And it may be hard to form an opinion based on that.
I can’t help but respond to:
1. It’s an old friend in need! I was able to help him, so I did. How I benefit: friendship, even if it is long distance. LaR got it right that it is a two-way street.
4. I sympathize with your experience with LO5! Sounds like someone I wouldn’t enjoy meeting.
Out of TO and I, I would say I am the more cynical one with the darker imagination.
If anything, I would like to be more naive. Quoting an anonymous wise man: “I’m a very naive person. I only assume the best of people. I know I take a conscious risk: it opens the door for good things to happen.”
Sounds like you’ve met some bad apples. I hope you meet a wonderful man who restores your faith in the opposite gender!
Hi Bewitched,
No, no need to worry for me, I’m in a very good place!
Even better since I just drank some mulled wine with a mutual friend and told him a bit about the last altercation with LO, and this was such a good talk. He completely knew what I was talking about and had similar experiences with LO, and agreed that it is not possible to have a close friendship in the normal sense, although he still likes him a lot (like me).
Thanks for your kind words! Maybe we are in the same place. If LO would suddenly act out of character and send something really nice or emotional, I would maybe, like you, get pulled back? But I know now for sure he won’t, because he‘s just not the person for it.
I hope your LO won’t fall out of character in the Christmas time, too.
„But he is a loyal husband. Maybe a bit like your LO1?“
LO1 wasn’t that loyal, to be honest. (Funny that you mention him, just after the mulled wine I met him on the street with his family, it’s maybe 30 min ago.)
I think LO2 was the most honest and loyal guy. And current or Ex-LO is very loyal, if not very loving.
*(I don’t know if „if not loving“ was the right expression. I meant even if he might not seem very loving or warm to her, loyal he is.)
Btw LaR, if you google Flaming Zombie recipe (not saying a seasoned bar tender such as yourself wouldn’t know it!), you get a site that says “The Flaming Zombie, as the name suggests, is not a cocktail to be trifled with…” Very apt!
Anyway, we only lost about half the counter and part of the back wall. Glad to hear you have insurance. Until it’s fixed there will be a slight draft – you might prepare to sell more of the hot beverages.
Trifles,
Ok, I admit I didn’t go into all this naively. I thought if I coralled a whole load of limerents together in a bar like sardines, I could expect some problems. But I thought they’d be more of the garden “tears at midnight” variety than zombie attacks, crazy pyromania and holes in walls.
We live and learn I guess.
We got this, anyway. SO is going to make a huge batch of mince pies. I’ll do a big vat of hot chocolate and another of mulled wine. I’ll bring up a load of building materials on the tractor left over from the barn conversion and we can crack on. The Amoors Inn will be right as rain by midweek.
I just learned something. The only meaning of Trifle I knew was the dessert. Now I find there are a load of other meanings to do with not taking things seriously etc. Which one inspired your LwL name?!
I really wish I picked a more interesting name, but it is too late now. I am etched into LwL history as LaR much too far to change now.
Happy Monday. Hopefully see you during the salvage operations.
Allow me to just leave this here. It goes with the informal theme of the day. There is a lot of sadness and bigger issues behind this song, as anyone who knows it or watches the video will see. The chorus though is also excellent when repurposed to limerence.
The Cranberries, Zombie (1994):
https://youtu.be/6Ejga4kJUts?feature=shared
Trifles,
“I know you only get a jumbled version of events based on what I feel like sharing at that moment. And it may be hard to form an opinion based on that.”
To be honest, I had/have little interests to analyze or form an opinion about anyone’s LO, good or bad; it’s futile to know who they are, even half accurately, with given limited facts, or full, subjective “facts” by biased limerents, particularly when they are in the throe of their LE.
I only “care” about them somewhat in how a LE relationship/friendship with them has made YOU feel/think/behave; except LaR’s LO, whose position I could relate to in my LE (minus one fact that I was not a friend with ET prior to it). The limited 2nd hand facts he provided made me urge him to be truly kind, not hurting her in any aspects. Your descriptions of TO portrays something else to me….
“1. It’s an old friend in need! I was able to help him, so I did.”
If indeed altruistic, then you would not feel frustrated or upset about his inability to meet you in person; giving your sincere friendship itself should be sufficient enough and even joyful. Please allow my one penny opinion here that echos yours: you can console his down spirit with your caring heart, but you, or anyone else, CANNOT help him out of the swamp. Paraphrasing you, he has to figure out how to get out of it by himself and how to LIVE his own life.
“How I benefit: friendship, even if it is long distance. LaR got it right that it is a two-way street.”
I begin to think that my definition of friendship differs greatly from yours and LaR’s. To me, this “friendship” looks mutually needy, codependent, and addictive — equivalent of a LE, regardless how you name it. Interactions, not names, define natures of any relations.
“I sympathize with your experience with LO5! Sounds like someone I wouldn’t enjoy meeting.”
Please do Not! you don’t even know half of my “LE5” facts. In my world, SYMPATHY does little to help if not enabling negative or weak feelings/thoughts. If someone falls, you don’t just say, “I’m sorry that you fell”, you’d try your might to help pull them up with your skills or whatever useful means, such as bitter herbs w/o sugar…
If I had more of my repressed SELF recognized and liberated back then, if I were more self-confident, self-validated, more spiritually/mentally independent, and if I sympathized less with LO5’s messy situations (remember I only had sympathy glimmer for LO5 from a dating app), I would not get hurt by his selfish behavior. It was exactly my naive giving hurt myself in the end and made me feel like an emotional masochist. We are still friends with all past let go without any bitterness.
“Out of TO and I, I would say I am the more cynical one with the darker imagination.”
Having a healthy dose of pessimism in dealing with unknown external world (including anyone else) does NOT mean being “cynical” or darkly imaginative. Stoic mind/skills are mental preparations for all POSSIBLE unexpected or the worsts, while making one’s best effort in anything one does. Stoic are NOT cynical at all, nor naively hopeful or wishful!
“If anything, I would like to be more naive. Quoting an anonymous wise man: “I’m a very naive person. I only assume the best of people. I know I take a conscious risk: it opens the door for good things to happen.”
This anonymous man’s view is just one possible bright possibility. Preparing for possible worst does not mean ASSUME anything in anyone or any situation, but considering and being mentally ready for all possibilities, while treating them kindly and intelligently. I hope you’ll have all your nice dreams actualized with your “naivety”. Please share with us when that happens.
“Sounds like you’ve met some bad apples. “
Without having tasted “bad apples”, how could one ever know what good apples are?
“I hope you meet a wonderful man who restores your faith in the opposite gender”
From which posts of mine you sense I have lost “faith in the opposite gender”? Do you deem I have some faith left in us women? Viewing the reality for what it was/is/possibly be means having lost faith in it? Having Stoic skills means having no faith in this 80% disappointing, imperfect world?
Best luck in your “friendship” with TO! 🫂
Snow,
☕️☕️
“I begin to think that my definition of friendship differs greatly from yours and LaR”
I think this is a bigger gulf than just to me or Trifles or both. This is an East-West cultural difference about friendship. I really want to understand it properly, as you view it, so I can know where you are coming from. When we debated the point I made about my MFF that you objected to, we agreed we’d probably be able to solve what the difference was in three / five minutes over coffee IRL. Since we don’t have that luxury (the knackered wall at the Amoors Inn prevents it), is there any way that you could try and articulate what this difference is in your characterisation of friendship, to what you think our Western one is? The difference has caused you to get triggered by me before, and possibly now by Trifles. We’d all really benefit from knowing.
“Please do Not! you don’t even know half of my “LE5” facts”
You’ve said in other places that you’re interested in our Western ‘conversation lubricating’ sensibilities. I think what Trifles has done when saying ‘I sympathise…’ is just try to introduce some of that “phatic” stuff to the conversation. That is a quite normal Western thing to say, even when we don’t have full facts. You seem to not like that she appears to have arrived at a position about something in your experience, based on having half facts about your LE5. But this is what we are *all* doing about each other’s LE’s, all the time. None of us has presented full facts. We are all working with half information all the time, but nonetheless reach our own conclusions. You have reached them about my LE, for example, based on the one sided half facts you have from me about it. What happened here is no different.
—
I know by even writing this, I open myself to the “LaR, why do you always defend Trifles?” line once again. Indeed, Trifles herself may even feel it and wish I kept quieter. However, as much as it is ever possible to ‘get’ anyone in the world of LwL, I would say that I ‘get’ Trifles, and vice versa. She (same for Mila) would step in to support me if the roles were reversed here. For some people, it is easier here to help other people out, than it is to say “look, I need a bit of a vent / a bit of help myself”. I’d say Trifles could be one of those people. It probably took quite a lot for her to put that extra information about her TO out there. Both selfishly and unselfishly, I want Trifles to stay here and find that LwL is a place she can find community and support for just as long as she needs it.
For me to get past that exchange with you about my MFF (remember, I am not Stoic like you) and get back to finding LwL a nice supportive place for me, I had to dig quite deep and forensically debate every point back and forth in a post that took me 4 or 5 hours to write, to. Trifles may not wish to do that. However, she has much to give the rest of us that make her one of my most highly valued LwL ‘ghost friends’.
I am going to butt out now and let Trifles talk for herself if she wishes to, like I probably should have done in the first place. I am not going to discuss her TE further, other than with her, unless she wants me to. Yesterday she said it was OK to do so in a post to me, but I’d now want to check on that again.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have a wall to rebuild.
☕️☕️☕️
OMG, what can I say? LaR, are you sure you’re not spying on me? You are right that it took a lot for me to (selfishly actually) share more about TO. You’re right that I enjoy others discussing my specific friends just as little as either of you do. But I’m fine, I did get some valuable insight from opening it up for discussion.
For example Snow’s comment on codependence – it’s one I’ve been watching out for and would like to steer away from (the old me at least! The new, naive me, I don’t know!). So it was actually good that you said it out loud (though not all would like to hear it).
Snow, I will just try to elaborate on one thing that you asked about. That part about faith in men came from “…LO5, who even confessed that men’s selfishness or “darkness” can be beyond our (women) imagination.” I don’t remember anything else that you have previously written about LO5. I only had that line. I made an assumption based on that and I’m sorry I commented on it. I would just like to say that I don’t want to think men are that bad, nor women or anyone else. It was not sarcasm – I really would like anyone to meet someone described as: “Be the reason someone believes in the goodness of people.” (Bianca Sparacino) It may sound corny, but it’s not a given, yet it should be! (See, I collect these quotes! Not saying I’m able to follow any of them.) You and I strive toward different life philosophies. I’m a (natural?) pessimist who strives to be an optimist – I’ve actually made big strides!
So LaR, thank you for that message. I think it’s better when you speak for me anyway. You’re much more eloquent (truly!). If I elaborate further we are back in EA territory. 😜 (And sorry to others for me joking around about that. Dark limerent humor…)
Whew, you win some, you lose some! LaR, don’t worry, I’ll only leave LwL when I find something better to do. 😉 Sammy said it best, as he often does – I’m the winner of the resilience award. Also the most intelligent award. (Or he said something to that effect! 🤣 – I’m kidding.) Cheers, Sammy!
Re: giving something to the LwL world (that sounds even more pompous than the intelligence award!), if I have anything to give – and it’s not even mine – it’s this. I know I’m repeating it: “I’m a very naive person. I only assume the best of people. I know I take a conscious risk: it opens the door for good things to happen.”
I’ll be out to help with that wall building in just a minute.
I think what might have happened here is always the problem with written word: we know exactly in which mood/meaning we write, but the recipient might underlay a different mood.
We are all different in expressing ourselves, different backgrounds and personalities.
For example, when someone writes in CAPITAL letters,me, I feel that they yell at me, while they only want to emphasize something.
In matters where I am sensitive I tend to overreact to seemingly smug sentences, but the other person doesn’t know me well and doesn’t know my sensitivities,or might have misinterpreted my own writing, and didn’t want to sound smug or patronizing at all.
I don’t always check how it might sound for other people because I just assume they recognize my mood or meaning, but I should probably.
So, as my kids say to each other, are we all friends again?;)
Although you might gang up on me because I ate all the limerent-free cookies myself.
Trifles thanks. I get where the ‘spying’ question comes from. No two people are the same and I am not trying
to imply it, but really I think it is mostly because I have studied the NTP playbook inside out and upside down as part of my investment into my LO 😬, that I have an antennae sometimes for where you’re at. I am not more articulate, just differently articulate. If the world was full of my character types, nothing would ever get done 😂
🧱🛠🧰
“If the world was full of my character types, nothing would ever get done 😂“
Can’t help second such an analysis….
“So, as my kids say to each other, are we all friends again?;)“
Are “friends” allowed to give tough love or bitter herbs without sugar?
If the house only serves Vanilla hot chocolate, limerence-enabling cookies, blind soothing smoothies, but no authentic, bitter coffee or straight whisky shot, I’ll quit my order-taking job in Amoor Inn.
“Naivete in grownups is often charming; but when coupled with vanity it is indistinguishable from stupidity.”
– Eric Hoffer —
“If the house only serves Vanilla hot chocolate, limerence-enabling cookies, blind soothing smoothies, but no authentic, bitter coffee or straight whisky shot, I’ll quit my order-taking job in Amoor Inn.”
The Amoors Inn needs you, Snow (especially if you have carpentry skills right now). It needs all the different flavours of drink you can dispense.
I can only speak for my own terms of engagement now, but I am quite willing and happy to listen to any point you wish to make towards or in response to me.
🧱🛠🧰🗜
The Last Word of a Bluebird
Robert Frost
1874 –1963
As I went out a Crow
In a low voice said, “Oh,
I was looking for you.
How do you do?
I just came to tell you
To tell Lesley (will you?)
That her little Bluebird
Wanted me to bring word
That the north wind last night
That made the stars bright
And made ice on the trough
Almost made him cough
His tail feathers off.
He just had to fly!
But he sent her Good-by,
And said to be good,
And wear her red hood,
And look for skunk tracks
In the snow with an ax—
And do everything!
And perhaps in the spring
He would come back and sing.”
******
Paraphrasing: you can’t point out a bright, hilly road to those who prefer not to see… you can’t wake up those who enjoy dreaming or being tipsy… you can’t pull out those who want to soak in their self-made sweet swamp….”
Each to its own chosen path… 🐦🔥
Trifles,
If your emotions can peacefully sit with your logic and defense for TO’s reasoning, then I guess it’s okay for you continue providing your selfless, gigantic validation to his current needs.
To me personally, it would NOT be fine! I will NOT continue such painful “mutual” validation. Does it make you more self-validated or uplift your spirit after 7 months or just superficially take away some of your loneliness/aloneness after xLO? Sorry about my directness.
I need to run for a morning tutoring. Later.
Such an interesting topic of discussion! Personally, I dislike politics. So I will stick to feelings of demoralisation inspired by friends not being crazy-supportive about one’s limerence.
Going from memory, when I was in the full swing of limerence, I didn’t want to believe what any naysayers had to say about my infatuation because (1) infatuation promises such a big reward and (2) I obviously didn’t want to miss out on any potential reward – I had my eye on the prize, as it were. So I guess one could say anticipation of reward blinded me to the wisdom of friends who may have expressed polite misgivings about the **cough, cough** actual believability and/or moral appropriateness of my **cough, cough** super-crush. 😆😆
Discussion regarding limerence on Reddit has been interesting in recent weeks. Posters have been suggesting alternative names for limerence. Here are four suggestions that stood out to me:
(1) Persisting unrequited love
(2) Impossible love
(3) Love madness
(4) Unwanted infatuation
Here are my hot takes on the alternative name suggestions:
“Persisting unrequited love” sounds a bit clumsy, but it may capture some people’s lived experience.
“Impossible love” is a nice, non-judgemental term that nonetheless acknowledges practical realities i.e. insurmountable obstacles, the fact two parties may not end up together, the possibility of non-reciprocation.
“Love madness” is my favourite – it sounds poetic and has plenty of historical and literary precedent behind it, dating back to the ancient Greeks, meaning limerence might be discussed in terms of a rich cultural tradition. Feeling depressed about being in love? Fine! Find out what the poets have to say. 😆
“Unwanted infatuation” may help distinguish people who want help with a given romantic attraction from people who don’t want help with a given romantic attraction. However, ‘unwanted infatuation” is also contentious when it comes to describing limerence overall because limerence almost always starts out as a much-wanted phenomenon that then turns into an experience that is less wanted (due to the stress involved, etc). The “wantedness” of the experience may be subject to change, based on personal circumstances and what stage one is in.
I like the term “intoxication” for limerence. I feel “intoxication” shifts the focus away from LO and LO’s behaviour, and instead emphasises the seemingly magical transformation taking place in the brain/body of the individual limerent.
Plenty of people on Reddit still struggle with the definition of limerence, and can’t agree what it is. Some people support “gatekeeping”, i.e. enforcing the narrowest possible definition of the term, while other people oppose “gatekeeping”.
One of the best casual-yet-still-well-informed definitions of limerence ran something along these lines:
Limerence is an almost obsessive state of romantic love, first defined by Dorothy Tennov in the 1970s. It starts off with feelings of elation and emotional arousal, and may lead eventually to feelings of obsessive craving.
I feel this last definition is consistent with the term/notion “person addiction”.
Hi all who followed my ramblings over the week,
the week is over and while it was tough on me, I couldn’t sleep much, stress-ate sugar and am very tired, I think it was the final breakthrough. In my case ,instead of NC, this week of contact was crucial in killing off the residues of limerence.
It also showed me that the close warm friendship I pictured and wanted to keep is not possible, at least not in the way I imagined it. We were friends for ten years but back then we worked together, which is the area where we really harmonize, and this together with easygoing conversations and mutual affection was enough. I just assumed that he would be there for me, should the need arise to talk about very personal stuff, but it never occurred.
Then the work bonding had gone since he left, which led to anxiety and limerence on both sides, contact ramped up, but from his side in this very curious manner of very frequent texts without any depth.
Friendships go on for years without getting tested. This one got tested, and didn’t withstand, at least not in the sense of close friendship.
He‘s such a limited person, he doesn’t have any understanding of what’s going on emotionally inside himself or others,he doesn’t know to express himself about personal matters at all, and he doesn’t want to change that. He cant, probably, but he also doesn’t want to.
Now I understand some things I observed in his marriage too- they don’t communicate about emotional/personal stuff either. They just function together, take care of each other, guess they love each other nonetheless in their way, but never communicate. A strange, stilted life.
I „saw“ him now really and what he feels comfortable with, that he wants me to give him validation and warmth and everything running on as it ran for years, without ever talking or changing anything (that’s why he still hangs on to this workplace, he cannot stand change ). When I try to talk about emotion or us (and I mean the least challenging stuff)he gets really uncomfortable and cannot reply.
I always thought there was normal empathy, care etc behind his neurodivergence, an ability to help or support also with words, but there doesn’t seem to be. He still loves me very much in his cramped way, I guess. But I cannot be close friends with someone who doesn’t want to communicate and only wants to see surfaces.
I think I made a huge step in finally accepting that. It’s proved by me really not pursuing the conversation this time , not trying to get through to him, not telling him a last time why I’m disappointed or why I might pull back or anything, I simply stopped and while I wasn’t warm after this altercation, I managed a few words with him , normal texts and a normal goodbye yesterday. By normal , I mean, reasonably friendly and polite , like to any acquaintance who might have come as a guest.
I have no idea if he realizes what’s going on. He noticed me being cold of course, but I think as long as I’m not shunning him completely or yelling at him, his mind will tell him that he shouldn’t think about it and everything will be ok, because he isn’t even able to think about emotional/social stuff like that. That’s ok for me now, I‘m not interested any more what he notices or thinks.
I think the only thing to manage now are the old ruts of thinking about him, I had the right epiphany and now have to take care not to slide into old habits again while I don’t have the reality check.
But that’s a matter of time. I feel that any expectation of warmth or mutual understanding in the way I want to be understood is finally gone and won’t come back.
I‘m also not at all concerned about the trip next year now. There won’t be any danger of limerence. Until then I will have managed to erase the old habit of taking him for an important person in my mind. It might even be pleasant to have him around .
He‘s actually someone to be a bit pitied. He gets so helpless and peeved . I would say he is in the undeveloped stages of a child what concerns the expressing of emotions, but then my kids can express themselves very well.
People of LwL, I‘m actually quite proud of me, of how I handled it this week. I had a last say but didn’t fly off the handle, I finally saw him for who he is, and I think now is a huge opportunity to let go completely.
Hi Mila,
Your story has always been kind of unique to me but it’s good to see you are coming around. It’s nice to not let LOs get the best of us. Although I totally get the struggle. So crazy how when we’re on the midst of the madness, we don’t see it. But what has been said in looking back on our LE is very true. What an incredible waste of time we put on someone..
Good job and keep the good work..
Hi MJ,
Thank you! I actually feel very, very good today. Relieved and happy, enjoying some Christmas baking and decorating. I‘m kind of rid of a spectre in my head.
Mila,
Great to hear the experience has clarified some things and that you feel some peace of mind today. Maybe this unsticks some things that have been stuck a long time?
Have you got a spare batch of those bakes for those seeking Sunday solace at the Amoors Inn?
Hi LaR,
I think it unstuck things, ended this LE for good and left me for the first time for years limerence-free!
And yeah, of course I’ve got a spare batch of those healthy but veeery tasty limerence-free Christmas cookies!
Hello Mila. Good job on getting through the work week with LO. Its also great to see you getting some sort of closure on LE. You can be proud of yourself. I am sure you will feel even better in the days to come.
Just wondering, do you plan to text LO now? Please feel free not to answer.
Regarding thoughts of LO popping in now and then, this will happen. LO thoughts still keep coming into my head pretty much daily, especially when I am alone, but I just let them come and go. They do not cause distress like they used to.
I have also tried to have ZERO expectations from LO. I am finding joy in my work, my exercise, spending time with family. This has really helped me. Not expecting validation from LO would be a huge step for me. I feel I am well on that path now.
In addition, I will make a conscious effort to stop giving validation to LO. On previous occasions, I was not successful in this, partly because I was expecting some validation from her as well, like a to and fro thing.
I realised the hard way that I just cannot be emotionally dependent on LO. Took a long time for this realisation, but better late than never.
To sum up, like you, I am also feeling pretty good in terms of moving on from LE.
Cheers.
Hi ABCD,
Thanks!
No, I’m definitely not going to text. If he texts, I‘ll answer friendly but I won’t initiate texts for sure. My feeling is, he won’t text too for quite a while, but I don’t care, actually. I‘m really out of it. Earlier, when I decided not to text or have contact, I put his chat on mute and into the archive, out of hurt, or to avoid temptation.
Now I don’t feel this need, it stays in the normal chat thread and I don’t think of it.
I don’t expect any validation and actually nothing.
This talk with our mutual friend yesterday was really helpful because it showed me that it’s not only disappointed limerence and me being unfair, but that LO really lacks in emotional expression and intelligence. The thing is that he’s always been like that and only when I got limerent and got dependent on him,and we suddenly got much closer in contact, it started to hurt. So it might be unfair to accuse him suddenly of something that wasn’t a problem for years.
Still, when I look at our recent text exchange , he really is not ok there, and he didn’t try to talk about it afterwards, he won’t ever try to set that right, because he lacks the words and courage and anyway refuses to think about that he could be at fault or actually think about anything deeper at all.
I won’t text not because I‘m angry but because 1. I think he will immediately take it as some sort of apology or sign that I think it’s me who was in the wrong, which is ridiculous, 2. I think it’s best for all not to have contact at all now.
Might send Christmas greetings, I guess, but that’s the extent of my goodwill at the moment.
ABCD,
you sound much better, I‘m very glad about your resolve and that you found strength in other areas in your life! Keep up the spirit!
Mila, your last week sounded very stressful and exhausting.
You indeed managed it well, and the reality of your friends emotional capabilities is now fuller clear to you. It’s a little sad maybe, but probably for the best. Hope you can feel freer now and gain some headspace back which is I think what many of us are seeking.
I wish you a fantastic week ahead.
Hi Imho,
indeed, I literally feel the freed headspace, and it’s crucial now not to fill it with ongoing ruminations about him or even subconsciously seeking for new limerent dopamine hits (as you know, I glided from one LE to the next for years). It might be why I’m on here a lot at the moment (also because the experience still needs to settle and apart from the conversation with my friend yesterday you are the only people I told about this altercation (cannot really term it „fight“, you cannot fight with someone who doesn’t talk).
I definitely feel freed, but also feel that it is necessary to control myself and make sure I don’t settle down into dismissal and aggression for LO, but that I take my part of responsibility and am forgiving of his character to a certain degree. Otherwise I‘m not being fair.
Is your event coming up soon? Wish you peace of mind and clarity of thoughts!
Hi Mila, sorry for tardy reply. I’m quite busy and also struggling to keep up with lwl goings on.
It seems we have a pub now too on some misty desolate moorland. In the past I suggested a wine bar across the street from the coffeehouse. It got favorable backing at the time but never fully opened its doors to the public!
It’s maybe good for you to hang out here, as may help you work through the remnants of last week, as im sure it will take time to settle, with a potential void after all that contact and just thinking about LO interactions alot in whatever capacity.
As for me, I’m figuring it out as usual. I’m not initiating any contact and neither has LO since the messaging on the event.
Another colleague messaged me to say she is looking forward to seeing me again after so long. So I need to lean into her and the others. I’m trying not to build it up but it’s hard. Im thinking to be more distant led by my executive brain, which seems to be waking up at last, to protect against the inevitable crash after.
And I need to re-read the advice given by the lovely LwL lot a couple of weeks ago.
Hi Imho,
always nice to hear from you. I still favorite a coffee house with the option of a red wine later!
Yes, I’ve got suddenly some kind of hole in my mind, like when a tooth fell out in childhood. I have to touch it with my tongue all 10 minutes to feel it’s really gone.
The good thing is, I’ve got this one recent short text exchange or actually this one text from LO on my phone.
When I get pulled back into former rosy view of LO, I just have to read it to understand once more how he is. He kind of helped me there himself by producing such clear evidence.
I had a short wobble where I thought I’m being too harsh since he‘s always been that way and suddenly it’s not ok anymore for me, it must be confusing for him, and maybe I should text and ask about his back pain. But after I read that text again, I saw again that that is not necessary at all, that I will steer clear of texting and all I’m going to do is let it all settle and digest, and simmer the rest of resentment down until he lost all this importance and I can see him f2f with an easy mind again because I don’t care that much any more.
I think you are the one who knows best what will be the best course of action for you so that you can feel content with yourself after this meeting.
Imagine yourself after that day at home, what will make you feel that you were doing well and no regrets? (not a real question from me, just for you ). Because you are the most important one to care for at this event, not him.
We are rooting for you!
And if it doesn’t go according to plan or something happens and he can’t come or whatever, the sky won’t fall down, there will be other opportunities, life will go on!
*favor
Thanks Mila, I like the tooth analogy and describes that feeling well. Also I think it’s just the step change of a habit (texting) that you will need to get used, regardless of the limerence. Because we get to know you a little ( maybe) then maybe you just need to watch out in a week’s time or so, that you may be tempted to check-in and ask about health etc. watch those busy thumbs 😊
Thanks for rooting for me. I’m trying not to ruminate on it, as the reality never plays out as you imagine. However, I’m spending too long thinking on what to wear etc Annoying myself!
No , Imho,
It is important to plan what to wear because you want to feel good! Wear something comfortable that you can move and sit in freely. Maybe not baggy leggings, but you know what I mean. It’s more important to give off a vibe of being comfortable in your skin than to wear a glamorous outfit, at least that’s my experience.
I think it was Bewitched who said wear something red, and I actually like wearing something (darker) red when I want to feel visible and put myself in a good mood. Depends on your coloring, of course.
Yes, will watch my thumbs. I still think that he will take it as some sort of apology or admitting I was in the wrong if I write now, and this is something I really don’t want him to think. He is welcome to text and I’ll answer politely, but no way am I going to text first- as I said, a Christmas message will be the first thing I would initiate, because I also don’t want to be in Cold War with him.
Mila,
I like your contact plan with your friend.
I think it was me that recommended you to wear red once, I think it helps with confidence when we need it. Bewitched may have recommended red too – because great minds do think alike, ha ha !
The event is such I have to make quite an effort for my clothes anyway. I’m more thinking how to lose a few kilograms and look 10 years younger in record time! Ha ha !
Yes, it was you!:)
Sometimes I feel better with simple black, by the way… it gets very girly, I wish I could see what you will choose to wear in the end!!☺️
I know exactly what you mean- ever since 40 I want to lose 2 kilos before some event (last week for example. Didn’t, of course, but I have to say, it didn’t matter. I still looked more than good enough for this guy.;).
The thing is that it’s only my mind telling me I would look better with 2 kilos less. The truth is that I might look better with 2 kilos more, who knows, it’s that darn hysteria to be as thin as possible that possesses all women. Your LO and everyone else most probably won‘t notice kilos or wrinkles, ok, they might notice but won’t judge you like you do yourself. It’s the same as with what to wear- what ultimately will be important is just your own sweet nature. I‘m sure you‘ll be lovely, Imho, don’t worry about kilos.
I’m a SO with a limerent husband, it’s been 10 months of pure hell. Every second of my life is torture.
It’s horrible but I actually was not horrified by the increasing political unrest in the world. It’s almost as if I feel less alone knowing that there is tension everywhere in the world, not just in my home.
Despair defines it well.
FS,
Have you checked out the Blog Archive link at the bottom of the page?
Search for “Spouse.”
At the moment, comments on older blogs are closed but that could change at some point.
Hi Limerent Emeritus,
Yes, I did. It’s been helpful, thank you.
As you mentioned, it would be nice if at some point we could still add comments to the older posts. Perhaps at least on the ones concerning the SO. It’s good to be able to speak about this to someone that understands it.
Welcome to LwL, Fading Sunshine. I am sorry to read of the despair you’re feeling. Most of the posters here are limerents, but there are some SOs of limerents as well who share your confusion and pain.
I have found reading posts of limerents helpful in understanding my husband’s altered state.
It sounds like you’ve found the archive with older blog posts. There’s one titled “Dealing with limerence in marriage” that you’ll probably find helpful. With the older blog posts closed for comments, perhaps Dr L can start up a coffeehouse for SOs of limerence.
Some more gems:
@Mila.
I think that feeling of “emotional dependency” may separate an LO from just a friend, even if the interaction started out as a true friendship. Also, I think “emotional dependency” is why people end up resenting a given LO. E.g. I need this person to regulate my emotions, and today he/she was neutral toward me, denying me the “fix” I so obviously needed, etc.
You continue to write beautifully. German schooling must be very good. 🙂
@Bewitched.
As I see it, you have two extremely valuable assets on your side – age and emotional maturity. If you play your cards very carefully, you might be able to avoid the pitfalls of emotional dependency that other people seem to struggle with. However, in my experience, emotional dependency does seem to be the “price” one eventually has to pay for all those “melting moments” with LO.
Every time you allow your LO to “make you melt inside”, as it were, releasing dopamine in your brain, you’re taking one step closer to invisible quicksand. In other words, If you surrender repeatedly to the pleasures of intoxication, even with a good LO, you may be gambling with your mental health. Euphoria feels wonderful in those early initial bursts of warm sunshine, but euphoria isn’t free.
@MJ.
When I reprimand you, you know I’m not really reprimanding you, right? What I’m doing is “sharing my calm” with you. Young children typically struggle to regulate their own emotions. Adults ideally can regulate their own emotions. Because adults can regulate their own emotions, they can do something for children called “emotional co-regulation” i.e. sharing calm with a distraught younger person. Sometimes, I view you as an “honorary younger person”. Patronising, I know. 😆
@Trifles.
Happy to see you have “found your groove” in the LwL coffeehouse, and haven’t allowed a selectively-surly Australian to intimidate you. The European contingent is nothing if not resilient, I see. If people respond a little too harshly to you, perhaps it’s because they can’t always see the emotional vulnerability and “desire to be found attractive simply as a woman” underneath your high intelligence. 😉
Hi Sammy,
no, schooling here is very bad. All of my English stems from a year abroad and reading a lot in English. Also, I’m much better at writing than speaking.
If I depended on schooling, I wouldn’t be able to write anything more sophisticated than „Liz has got a guinea pig. Its name is Munchies“ or something on that level
Dear Sammy,
Your gems are appreciated 😀
“Bewitched
As I see it, you have two extremely valuable assets on your side – age and emotional maturity. If you play your cards very carefully, you might be able to avoid the pitfalls of emotional dependency that other people seem to struggle with. However, in my experience, emotional dependency does seem to be the “price” one eventually has to pay for all those “melting moments” with LO”
I certainly have age on my side 😀
I feel like a youngster on the inside but am certainly more -ahem- vintage on the outside now. Ah well.
What you say is absolutely true. I was speaking with Mila about how LO brings out my softer side. ‘Soft’ is linguistically adjacent to the word ‘melting’ in your comment. The euphoria is all but gone for me and has been for quite some time. I even went through a bit of low feeling once I realised that the euphoria was gone, this happened maybe as long as six months ago now. The low feeling did not last too long and it was not devastating, I believe that’s because it happened gradually and so my mental state calibrated itself slowly to the new reality. After that phase, I had a sense of immense freedom from LO taking up space in my head and a gratitude that I no longer really cared about what he did / did not do.
I do believe that the fundamental thing is to want to recover, then it is possible, like in any addiction. It sounds trite but I had to feel that I was ‘over it’ in my bones. As you say, stop the pleasant daydreams / dopamine hits from contact. Then, to help along the way, I think that once a certain recovery phase has been reached in limerence, it is probably possible to assert your logical and strategic mind into recovery – like, I was very stubborn once I decided that I wanted limerence to stop. None of that is possible in the depths of limerence though.
You are right, I need to be fond but not dependent on him for validation, something that I need to constantly check myself on. Thanks Sammy.
“Sometimes, I view you as an “honorary younger person”. Patronising, I know. 😆”
Not really Sammy, but you’re good. Obviously if I have shared with Lwl Friends here, what an absolute bawling mess I’ve found myself in over LO, that should easily prove I am far from being in control of my emotions. Just last week I was going through her playlist again and tearing-up over some recent finds I added on it. I got lost in that moment and never wanted out. The idea of her is still very intriguing. At the same time, it still makes me anxious because it’s such a wrong feeling that feels so right.
Or perhaps it’s just because I look in the mirror and refuse to see myself as a middle-aged man of 53, going through a pathetic mid-life, thinking all the cute younger Women, 35 and under still look at and want me. I tell myself that but who am I fooling?? I look in the mirror and can’t believe I’m actually 53 sometimes. Like who is that old Man looking back at me right now??
My Lady Friend is good to me. I want to believe the age-gap appeals to her or is it just a ruse to make me feel good? She is very charming and so it makes me wonder sometimes. On a platonic level, we are beyond great as friends. Stepping up things a notch, I’m not entirely sold on just yet. Don’t want to ruin a good thing.
Keeping limerence at bay is paramount being around her..
You have some good insight here with others Sammy, so call it as you see it. I’ll never take offense. Even if I did though, I believe you and I would be intelligent enough in our dialogue to rationalize with each other about it. 😁
Well…
My LO just sent me an email, a very touching one, and I am really touched. I think he agonized a lot and it cost him much to write this. It is emotional and full of anxiety to lose our friendship.
I‘m very glad- I feel by no means limerent again, that has really passed. But I‘m very glad that he cares so much and that I can open up again to this friendship. I have to think a bit about answering because I don’t want to skip the whole load of my own stuff over his head now, since it might be too much for his neurodivergent brain.
This might in a friendship-happy end after all now.
*end in a happy end
Wow – that is *big* news!
Your mind will probably now go in a million directions about what you want to say in response, but your advice to yourself is wise – to take your time and really think the reply through, for what is helpful and productive to say versus not. Over at the inn, we’ve fixed you up a big pot of strong coffee for this task. Good luck!
I am really glad for you that he sent this email.
Thanks LaR.
Yes, I will take my time, but not too long,I think he waits, agonizing. I thought about sending a text that I’ll reply later, but won’t. It’s obvious that I need a bit of time to reply if I want to reply thoughtfully.
I‘m glad too. It loosens a knot inside me, and at the same time I am also glad that I still feel that the LE is over, but not the friendship. If I can do it, you can do it, LaR!
I can do it Mila. I am doing it!!! Easy does it, but getting much more equilibrium again after the well publicised blip a while back.
“I think he waits, agonizing”
*Let him!* How long did he make you wait, agonising, to get this emotion and confirmation that he cares from him? How many *years* (not hours)? Make him wait a bit! I know even just knowing you on LwL your tendency to want to reply quickly (takes one to know one). But your closest friends here will have great suggestions to bounce around with you about the reply, once they have time to comment.
LAR,
Right, I’ll take a bit of time to reply;)but I’m not one for playing the waiting game too much. I like things to be done and over with..
Mila, I’m also happy for you about this email! See, never give up on people – there are some emotions in there after all. 😉 And I’m just as glad to hear that it didn’t raise the limerent feelings in you.
I’m not great at this either – you’re probably much better! – but I would reply like I would to any other good friend whom I would want to continue a friendship with.
Hi Trifles, (and LaR),
that’s what I’ll try to do, thanks!
I already wrote a draft but will check it tonight with fresh eyes.
Also, have to think a bit more of how I would like future contact to look like and maybe work that into the mail.
While I‘m happy and he is restored in my head to a better person than the careless egoistic person I finally took him for, my picture of him has still changed, I can still see what he‘ll never be capable of.
So I think while this friendship is very important to me, it shouldn’t be my top priority any more , the one I put most thoughts and care into. It should take its place among other friends and even a little below some who I click better with. I would never let him feel that since I think I’m honestly his top closest friend. But for my sanity, I cannot rely emotionally so much on someone who is so limited in that area and has to torture himself so much to meet my (not that high) needs in that area.
Trifles, I recently ate a dessert called Christmas trifle, it was very delicious!
Hi Mila,
I am.late to this party but I just wantef to share in your happiness. When I read your post this morning, I was worried for you before realising that you were clear that this email did not reawaken any feelings of a euphoric limerent “win”.
“So I think while this friendship is very important to me, it shouldn’t be my top priority any more” and
“But for my sanity, I cannot rely emotionally so much on someone who is so limited in that area and has to torture himself so much to meet my (not that high) needs in that area”
This is the core of it. He cant meet your needs, its actually about something else. The validation he gives is not enough (even as a close friend) and that is okay. Not a tragedy. As for his feelings, you are far too wise and adept to let him down. He may be contented by very little?
Bewitched,
Of course he would have been most happy with a little, simply a reassurance that we will always be friends, something like that.
But I just sent a long and, if you pardon my arrogance, very well-written email (I’m good at expressing myself in writing, of course only in my own language.)
I did it for me because I want to explain my behavior and my view of the situation, there should be no misunderstandings what this is about.
If he doesn’t understand it or is offended by something, well, so be it.
I still have tenderness for him, but I stopped depending on any answer from him.
He wrote himself that he is looking forward if he could see me in January (he‘ll be in town), I’ll see him probably anyway then. He won’t by any means manage to write back satisfyingly, I think his first email cost him already a lot of time, sweat and trials. (My SO cannot write either, but he can talk, if necessary.)
It was important for me to articulate myself clearly one last time, although gentle. I told him we can manage, and we‘ll try.
But the most important thing for me is really that this horrible limerent dependency seems to be gone. I‘m curious how he will react and my aggression is gone after his mail, but if he wouldn’t write ever again, it would also be kind of ok.
Hi Mila,
“I‘m curious how he will react and my aggression is gone after his mail, but if he wouldn’t write ever again, it would also be kind of ok.”
Yes. We all have our breaking points, even in limerence, things we just can’t support anymore. Generally it might be to do with the LO’s approach (if they are just using us, not always the case of course) or it might be do do with ourselves and not being able to bear the pain any longer. But its such a roller coaster that the status quo can not remain indefinitely. That alone ought to be logic enough to make us look ahead to the end point – personally I am a big fan of playing out all the ‘what if’ scenarios. The trick, when there is friendship or co-worker involved, is to manage that transition to the endpoint of limerence with dignity and self-respect intact. I am not sure we all manage that last part to our own exacting standards (I think most limerents are very hard on themselves), but some come close enough I hope. I am so glad for you because I think this neutral feeling that you’re enjoying will enhance your relationship with LO, whatever that looks like.
Just need to avoid any further glimmers now!!!! Eyes down and buy some very strong designer sunglasses, wear them indoors like Elizabeth Taylor, etc. 😀
Hi Bewitched,
will buy sunglasses immediately! Although I’m not sure about Elizabeth Taylor as role model, if I recall it rightly, she married eight times (two times Richard Burton).
Yes, we‘ll see, when the next glimmer hops along.
I think I’ll only be able to stay friends with LO if I manage to maintain this equanimity and if I manage to assign him another role in my life, nothing too major but still a steady friend.
Also, don’t know if he will play along. My mail had warm words but also clear criticism, we‘ll see what he makes of it.
Mila, that sounds really smart to also voice how you would want your future contact to be like. That is, if you’re able to specify what you want, and even stick to it for awhile at least. That takes some of the uncertainty out of it, also for him. Especially if he has trouble reading the subtle clues in social interactions.
So simple, yet sometimes so hard for us when we wrestle with uncertainty in relationships – why don’t we just ask for what we want? And conversely, when someone’s behavior puzzles us, why don’t we just ask why they acted in the way they did?
Confession time – I don’t think I’ve ever had a trifle! LaR asked earlier why I chose the name, so LaR, this is for you. It just popped into my head when I was compelled to write here. I think phonetically (and even with its double meaning) it reminded me of a good user name I had seen ages ago on a travel forum!
Meaning-wise, l thought along the lines of “My worries are mere trifles”.
But I think the archaic meaning also fits me quite well 😜 – “talk or act frivolously”, “We will not trifle—life is too short.”
If I’m feeling pompous, then: “She is not a person to be trifled with.” (“treat without seriousness or respect”)
I just found out trifles are “often soaked with wine or spirits”. Seems fitting?! But I promise I won’t trifle with those Flaming Zombies any more!
Triflings,
For you not to have had a trifle is like me not having had a rant! … you’ve got to go for it now …
Usually layers of cream, custard, fruit, and sponge soaked in a spirit (sherry is typical) or some kind of fruit juice 😋
One to wet your whistle, for example:
https://amandascookin.com/traditional-english-trifle/
And I am over this business with the zombies (though if I see that welder anywhere around here again, we will need to have more than trifling words). In fact, spending a Monday to Wednesday rebuilding the wall of a pub has been on my bucket list for some time, so there we are, it all worked out.
All good – we can reopen in time for the weekend! Hopefully the sommelier has found a nice soft, mellow European red to mark the occasion (see, Imho, we are listening to customer feedback). I’ll also see how the chef feels about prepping a trifle for everyone.
Hi Trifles,
just found your message.
In the end I refrained from determining future interaction, because I already wrote so much and also because I’m not sure what will be best either.
I‘ll just wait and see, there’s no stress, at least that’s how I feel it at the moment.
„ And conversely, when someone’s behavior puzzles us, why don’t we just ask why they acted in the way they did?“
That’s what I would do, and what doesn’t come natural at all to him, and questions like that distress him greatly. Actually , I think his neurodivergence is bigger than I thought. I really wonder if his SO came to the conclusion he‘s neurodivergent and if not, how the hell does she cope?
Well, not my problem.
Didn’t make Rachel in „Friends“ a trifle for Thanksgiving, with minced meat in it because the cookbook pages were stuck together? Just remembered it.
Mila, good point, you have to know your audience for those questions. Also let’s not badger our LOs too much with things like “…but WHY did it take you 15 mins to respond to my message” and some such! 😅
I think his SO must know he is “wired differently”, otherwise would she have stayed with him for as long as she has..?
Lol, you have a great memory! I found the clip of Rachel making the meat trifle (beef sauteed with onions).
“That was weird to me too, but English people just put strange things in their food!” 😜
LaR, let’s add that to the menu at the Inn, please? So half your recipe and half Shepherd’s pie recipe. Only for December…
Hi Trifles,
„I think his SO must know he is “wired differently”, otherwise would she have stayed with him for as long as she has..?“
She must know that, but I wonder if one of them ever read up on neurodivergence or wondered more about it than just stating that he‘s a bit different. I mean, it causes him not a small amount of distress and misunderstanding, when I got his email right. I don’t dare to point him in the direction auf neurodiversity because it‘s kind of patronizing („see, you have a CONDITION“😂🙈), it’s not my place to do that.
It’s actually not that long ago I saw this trifle episode, that’s why I remember it. Hilarious. It definitely belongs on the menu of the inn, just to honor your name!
For anyone who‘s got nothing to do in this pre-Christmas-time😆:
https://youtu.be/ky3KiiUK_D0
LaR,
🫡 👊🏻 you’ve assigned me a carpenter’s work and been chasing the unwanted welder so hard that he ended up in my dream land in the form of ET! 😡 —
….After jumping out of my bed getting away from this younger lesbian (my neighbor) who had a crush on me and wanted to try physical intimacy with me, and then a young dude dashed by my door and interrupted it, I took a stroll in the very early morning, on a quiet, curved, down-slope alley, paved in copper stones with some small shops on both sides. (looked like an “antique” alley in a Normandy town in France). All of a sudden I saw ET standing outside of a blacksmith shop. He was wearing an apron, holding an iron rod, slightly bending down working.
Walking up from his right side, I called him and saw a dirty smudge of an egg size on his left face; he looked sad, weary, thinner and whiter haired, more wrinkled; his usual upbeat spirit had all gone. I asked him what he was doing here on an edge of the town, he said that there were violent riots of black mops against white people in his town, so they had to flee the place. Now, he is back to our town, so had to do work on a blacksmith shop to support the family.
Feeling shocked and sorry, I asked whether he wanted to get together for coffee, he shook his head and began walking away down the shallow slope street. I did not get upset but walked a couple of steps behind. But then he paused, turning back and told me that he was still in the big debt of $400,000 for his house left in that town. I said to him (or was thinking) that I could give him the entire amount to pay off the debt….
He paused just for a second (or I perceived), seemingly thinking about the proposal, which then immediately raised a red flag in my head — [LE📣, your warning out of your collected, dire LE stories did sink in my Unconscious!]
Then I woke up… feeling very sad 😞…
📢 LaR: stop chasing, or scold the 🧑🏭 or just send him permanently to Bewitched territory!
OK, it’s settled! At the inn, we will offer both a Friends style mincemeat trifle and a proper English trifle as alternatives for December, and see if anyone is brave enough to go for the first one and report back on the experience.
Snow, I am sorry to hear the welder and ET merged in your dream! Whether I bar the welder permanently (he did destroy half the back wall, albeit with a bit of Trifles’ help), or send him off to forever happiness with Bewitched … well … Bewitched deserves to be the judge of that!
By the way, “400,000” in COO sound like (homophone) — “Is Death 10,000”. Numbers in my dreams seemed to always have meanings …
After this dream around 3am, I rolled back to sleep, and had another vivid dreams with a group of my college classmates touring internationally by bike, train, and ship. I snapped at two Russian female attendants gossiping on the ship about us COO folks; they did not realize that I could understand perfectly what they were complaining.
Why my dreams were more than often so detailed, eventful ❓🤔 Ha, “A double life of Snow 🐦🔥 “
Snow,
I don’t want you to feel alone with the dream analysis, so I will weigh in here with a very rare memory of a dream I had last night.
In the dream, I was lavishing physical affection on a boss at work, who was accepting it. This boss is quite popular among the men, but personally I have never had an iota of attraction towards her in real life (she is stuck up, arrogant and loves herself, which are all huge LaR turnoffs). In the dream, LO then entered the room. She was visibly disgusted with me at first, but then began competing with this boss for me, trying to take me off her.
I then woke up before resolving the matter. I have no clue what it all meant. Perhaps the boss was meant to represent SO, but she could not be more unlike SO!
LaR,
Let me pompously try to interpret your dream here —
Your Unconscious wishes that your MFF is also in LE with you. Because if she is, she’d be jealous of this boss, popular in reality and could plausibly become your LO. Your Unconscious wanted and saw her jealousy.
I think it’s with Mila that we discussed once: limerent is rarely jealous of LO’s SO (an existing, partial identity of LO), but LO’s new LO. MFF does not know for sure if you’re in limerence with her, and if yes, how much? Exclusively or possibly inclusive…
Don’t mind me if I decipher it wrong… 😑
I wish the dream blog is still there, so I could post my LE/LO related dreams as records for DrL’s research.
❄️
Your interpretation sounds pretty feasible. And of course I don’t mind that you tried – I put it here expecting that you might!
What is fascinating is how the subconscious selected a totally unlikely and inappropriate person (this boss) as a would-be LO. I could list many women at work who I would more likely to hold feelings for than this boss woman – she is not my type at all.
This reflects a wider trend in dreams – mine and I believe others’ too – for random substitutions of people/things. I read somewhere once that the harder the issue is for the conscious to face, the more the subconscious has to do weird substitutions to let us face it.
To illustrate – “I need MFF’s reciprocation” is the thing my conscious has pushed down hardest over many months, to the point I often feel I’ve been successful. Given that, the substitution (of another potential LO) in the dream has to be very weird (ie this boss). If my conscious was admitting “I need the reciprocation”, the dream substitute might be a more plausible person, ie the next real candidate for a glimmer for me. Does that sort of make sense?
LaR,
You’re reading it from a different angle.
Based on Jungian theory, the Unconscious counterbalances against whatever your conscious firmly believe or push down, or repress. he two ideas that you repressed down so hard/firmly (It’s okay now that I do not need to know and I can live with the uncertainty, and this boss is impossible) in your conscious mind, that the Unconscious had to counter/strike against them — perfectly fitting Jung’s Unconscious theory.
Snow,
I think both our angles could be right about that dream, at the same time.
Here is the kicker that you could never make up … The boss in question who was (un)fortunate enough to get my affection in the dream (not my direct boss) usually doesn’t give me the time of day in real life. I have today just received an email from her congratulating me on a piece of work I’ve done.
You could not make it up, could you?
Congratulations on your achievement! LaR!
Now, you can’t avert/dislike her as much as before, can you? Your subconscious perhaps just predicted an unthinkable? 😜
“Now, you can’t avert/dislike her as much as before, can you?”
Hmm, once I make a decision on someone it stays pretty baked in. Fickleness doesn’t wash. No transfer coming up here in LaR LaR land!
LaR,
Of course I was joking in my last post here.
But do value your own achievements, professionally validated even by a disliked “rival”(boss) in your head; without you pining for it, it’s even more “authentic” on her part.
To be honest with you, I respect more matching-hand rivals in intellectual faculty, but like more soft-leg friends in emotional adaptability. With the former, dialogues or debates never run out and would promote more self-learning; with latter, 2-3 glasses of strong cocktail would be more appreciate to relax or numb focused mind and perked nerves….
I’ve spent so much time to weigh every word in my posts… if you complain that you’ve spend 4-5 hours for one post, look at how many half or 3 quarters of an evening/night I’ve spent in one post!
Often check all possible meanings of an already known word, that might cause confusion in listener’s ears; this is a manifestation of annoy perfectionism — I ALWAYS censure myself first, to protect imbedded nagging feelings of inadequacy or “good for nothing” — Mom’s exact word on my first remembered “meeting” her around 4, because I swallowed a needle-pin button in the weekcare for the 3rd time and was brought again to her hospital for a treatment. I was born disobedient….
A request: in your other post, please shorten each paragraph. Longer ones tire my reading quickly, losing my focus on many points there.
Hi Mila. Wow, that is awesome news! And its great to see that the email did not lead you to be limerent again, now that’s some serious progress.
I sort of had a similar experience with my LO, as I may have mentioned in one of the LwL threads. After the horrific (to my mind) cold interaction, I really wanted to get out of the LE. Soon after, I had a warm LO interaction, which, though it made me happy, was not really like the previous limerent highs that I experienced. Those were of higher intensity as compared to this one, if it makes sense. Now, I was like, ok, we can perhaps have some decent conversation when we meet f2f, and not being able to do NC would not bother me much.
Cheers.
„ And its great to see that the email did not lead you to be limerent again, now that’s some serious progress.“
Yeah! I‘m proudly surprised myself. I think you can be proud of yourself too.
„ and not being able to do NC would not bother me much.“
This sounds very good to me.
Hi LaR.
“I can do it Mila. I am doing it!!! Easy does it, but getting much more equilibrium again after the well publicised blip a while back”.
—-
Its great to hear about your progress, I am on a similar path.
Thanks ABCD. I think we’re both at the point where our executive brains want out, but we have to wait for the feelings and emotions to catch up in their own time.
Those “high but not limerent high” encounters – we need to bottle these. They are priceless evidence that there is a route through.
Yep LaR. You said it. Its still not over, and we need to be cautious.
In the past, I have had limerence creep back in due to a warm action from LO.
Cheers.
Just checking in at Coffeehouse to say that I feel I have hit a new phase of limerent recovery. I am at the point where my reasoned brain is done with limerence and done with LO. I am done actively thinking about LO, actively caring about LO, and even actively pondering limerence itself. I say actively because I still passively suffer from intrusive thoughts and emotions about LO. I still have a deep romantic attraction to her but I’m not giving that attraction any active power. I’m not giving her any power. I recognize the LE will linger for a while because I have to coexist with LO and her presence alone still gives me a mood boost, but as long as I stay as LC as possible, and can tell my brain to be done with it, to ignore the boost, I can mentally move on even if my emotions don’t coincide.
Not sure what to call this? Intellectual / Emotional detachment of some kind I suppose.
Anyone else have experience with this in their LE journey?
Proving once again @Speed, you seem to really have your act together in dealing with LE. Sounds to me like you’re simply putting mind over matter and it seems to be working well for you. The only real issue now, coexisting with LO at work. I get why you wish she would just leave and let you go of the struggle. I know myself not seeing my LO in many months has lessened the desire of wanting her, however I still love the thoughts of being romantically involved. Those thoughts seem to really bring me down at times. However having what I consider a normal friendship/crush with another female co-worker now is huge in drawing me back to reality. Away from LE thoughts in my head over something that will probably never be. You appear to be friending well with other Lady Co-workers too, so keep up the good work. Looking forward to what the future holds in store for you..
“However having what I consider a normal friendship/crush with another female co-worker now is huge in drawing me back to reality.”
MJ, I like this comment a lot. For me, this is also the biggest thing to counteract my LE burning hot. Having other positive female relationships to lean on provides such a relief from my overactive and wacky emotions for LO and helps me realize how messy any personal relationship is with her.
Speedwagon,
“as long as I stay as LC as possible, and can tell my brain to be done with it, to ignore the boost, I can mentally move on even if my emotions don’t coincide.”
I am picking up from a number of LwLers this same idea that the brain has moved on but the emotions are slow to follow. It is good to hear that you think you can now move in your mind on even if you are in that situation. The emotions only ever catch up in their own time. Some here have reported lately that it has happened for them. Keep on plugging away.
Snow,
Coming back to coffeehouse ☕️ but this is a response to your post on the other thread.
Thank you for your message. I think it’s helpful to understand more about our protectors, how they operate and why they’re there. Ultimately I will take it as my responsibility to monitor and moderate what my protectors are up to, and I will try to be mindful of yours too.
I also think it is really helpful to tease out where differences relate to radically different cultural understandings of a word or phrase. It’s interesting from a language viewpoint – sometimes my culture or yours won’t even have a word (or will have a narrower range of word options) because one culture doesn’t have the concept, or we have a very different version of the concept that doesn’t translate.
To deal with your point about Trifles first, I just knew that her ”sympathy’ that you didn’t want would have been offered from what she thought was a good place. I know enough to be almost cast-iron certain. The cultural difference in the meaning of the word ‘sympathy’ and the assumption that she made and since apologised to you for (we all make mistakes) meant that something she said intending to be kind, backfired. I maybe should have kept out of it and let the two of you resolve it. But some ‘defender / swarm harmoniser’ protectors in me stepped in. The other part of it was I felt you had made an assumption about her TO based on limited information, as I said. Each of us has a version of the facts of our LEs. These versions can be skewed by our limerence. I, for example , often use LwL insight to find and correct flaws in my reasoning. I find views from various ghosts – and I massively count you among them – really helpful. Still, I have more accurate insight than anyone on LwL into what’s going on ‘on the ground’ in my LE, including how I am feeling and at least the outward appearance (and the face is a big ‘tell’ )of how MFF is feeling (with space to accept criticism if my logic reads clearly wrong – and on that note, I do now accept what you said that neither me or MFF has an easy or uncomplicated exit route – your Intuitive is strong there). The point about ‘on the ground knowledge’ is the same for Trifles in her ‘TE’ and would be for you the next time an LO catches your glimmer. That’s why both these things are true: 1. I think it is good to give our whole and uncensored opinions in reaction to others’ posts, 2. When we do that, we need to know that we might be wrong compared to the on-the-ground reality for the poster, so it is not right to force it too hard. I thought we (me included) were hovering close to that happening with Trifles, which is why I interjected as I did. If I’m wrong, I’m sorry.
Thank you also for your articulation of the COO concept of friendship, and how that can transcend family, love, monogamy, limerence etc. I think I get your holistic stance about me and MFF better now. I also have more grasp on why what I said about MFF came across to you like it did (as cynical). I think I got frustrated that I couldn’t help you understand that I didn’t mean it like that. I don’t know why it matters so much (that is, of course, something within me, not anything you did). Again maybe it is because I see on the ground how much care both people invest into the friendship. It *is* a friendship in the sense you talk about how COO people regard friendships. The frustration for me is that I never wanted the limerence on top; I want things to be how they were before that happened. I obviously can’t have that and know I have to work with the hand fate has dealt me. I don’t say this wanting your sympathy, validation etc – I say it just to state facts. Although thank you for recognising in your last message that my LE does bring me genuine joy and positivity. I accept your point that it is my mess to ride out, to ‘take the trials’ etc. But if my articulation of things ever comes out confused (like the bit you found cynical) it is because I am battling three very strong forces within me – the 🧲 of limerence, the wish to be free of it and have a quieter life, and the wish to do right by MFF as a friend. You will hear all three of those parts of me talk here at different times and sometimes be in an outright verbal battle with each other.
I will now file my self justifcation protector safely away, and just say that I hope the weekend treats you kindly. I’m off to do some various christmas related stuff with the family which I’m looking forward to 🙂
LaR,
A quick appendix my previous marathon message:
With Stoic practices, I got rid of Wounds #1 and #9, but still very shy to speak in realistic public.
With Jungian shadow work and LwL, I got rid of W#10.
With my meditation, I’m comfortable with #4 but dislike it. It’s nearly impossible for an Eastern Amazon worrier to find fulfilling companies even if she puts a cocktail dress.
#11? As a DA, she walked away (abandon) first while sensing/perceiving other side would leave. And who can “abandon” her? — only her idealized, Glimmery, trustworthy Phantom who needs a human, secure form…. Does he exist in reality❓I wonder even if Apollo knows…🏹
See you later in Amoor Inn.
Yep, if it’s easier, I am happy to just work our way through the Amoors Inn cocktail menu and see where that takes us.
Sorry about paragraph length. Noted for future action. They were admittedly long.
There should be a spirit of “Amor”🧡 that includes Agape in the Inn….
I won’t ramble unless I can speak up my odd views, right or wrong; but I’ll always try my best to focus on topics, not ghosts/speakers. If I/you notice my protectors are itchy to act, I’ll just shut up 🤐 for as long as needed (already reduced from 48 to 36/24 hours already, with my dreams’ assistance…”
I am behind my finals preparations… why I got myself so busy here responding? 📣 DrL, can I get a bit of stipend?
Good night and Sunday to you!
LaR,
I did not get a chance to respond your message, and it will take several to address some unfinished topics.
“I think it’s helpful to understand more about our protectors, how they operate and why they’re there. “
I just quickly reviewed my IFS cards (like a set of poker cards with vivid, pictorial illustration), it’s not only helpful but also makes protectors’ actions comical and easier to be understood and then forgiven.
“Ultimately I will take it as my responsibility to monitor and moderate what my protectors are up to, and I will try to be mindful of yours too.”
If one keeps an eye on those protectors, making sure they work together harmoniously (not getting rid of them) through SELF parts— the goal of IFS, one would have obtain a lot of self-knowledge, inner peace and joy.
“I also think it is really helpful to tease out where differences relate to radically different cultural understandings of a word or phrase. “
This can be done only when the offended is out of upsetting zone and after misunderstanding is clearly sorted out. The former is already achieved, but not completely the latter, added by personality differences.
“It’s interesting from a language viewpoint – sometimes my culture or yours won’t even have a word (or will have a narrower range of word options) because one culture doesn’t have the concept, or we have a very different version of the concept that doesn’t translate.”
Very true. I want to learn about those differences, because COO traditions and its modern Red culture comprise of so many ridiculous/backwards/inhumane aspects, which were imprinted in us ordinary people’s system; I want to cleanse them out of my system while keeping valuable ones that not often seen in the West — a primary goal to stay in LwL (not my LE itself anymore). Otherwise, I’d rather spending more time in my own writing projects that have been postponed so much…
“To deal with your point about Trifles first…. If I’m wrong, I’m sorry.”
I’m always touched by your sincerity humility. I’ll respond the above message in another, longer post, addressing to you and Trifles — you two sticky GFs in EA. I never got a chance to elaborate my points of views, one of which is not specifically related to her case but more general applying to many cases here or elsewhere…
“Thank you also for your articulation of the COO concept of friendship, and how that can transcend family, love, monogamy, limerence etc. “
This kind of rare, solid friendship can only (almost) take place when sex is not involved or when one is not a direct boss of the other party.
”It *is* a friendship in the sense you talk about how COO people regard friendships.”
I’m glad to hear that. Then, it’s even harder to choose between a true friendship and LE with MFF.
“The frustration for me is that I never wanted the limerence on top; I want things to be how they were before that happened. “
I never glimmered at any existing friends or was able to cultivate any for them, so still can’t understand how it could happen. Your dream/Unconscious seems to say that you want MFF in Limerence with you…😀
“I obviously can’t have that and know I have to work with the hand fate has dealt me. I don’t say this wanting your sympathy, validation etc – I say it just to state facts.”
If you see me giving sympathy to anyone, that means I see them as being weaker than me, in body, or mind, or whatever, or if they really want it. IMO, empathy is what most people truly desire, not sympathies. Sympathy pities, empathy validates, who wants the former?
Validation? Hmmm… I’ve given some superficial flattery here to those who seem to be really hungry for it; however, an external feeding would never be enough. The goal should be to help wake up/water those fermenting, self-validating seeds (don’t wander off, you farmer’s mind…) already existing in everyone. I still believe that unless one could truly validate one Self (using 16 SELF parts), one could never feel truly secure/peaceful/harmonious/joyful inside.
“I accept your point that it is my mess to ride out, to ‘take the trials’ etc. “
It’s not my point or some karma effect; it’s a fact of life — Fate’s whimsical hand is fair to everyone. Soon or later, in one area or another, one gets his/her life “trails”. What is unfair is that someone gets much more/less misfortune than another. With a Stoic mind, one certainly gets much less pains than another fragile, unprepared mind when both encounter same misfortune(s).
“But if my articulation of things ever comes out confused (like the bit you found cynical) it is because I am battling three very strong forces within me – the 🧲 of limerence, the wish to be free of it and have a quieter life, and the wish to do right by MFF as a friend.”
I think I can empathize here, although my thinking, by comparison with mainstream Westerners, is (viewed as) often inflexible.
“ You will hear all three of those parts of me talk here at different times and sometimes be in an outright verbal battle with each other.”
Okay, try to give me some warning beforehand, so I won’t end up “scolding” a GF 👻 for having a “fickle” mind.
Hi Snow,
Thank you for your message. All points well taken.
“I’m always touched by your sincerity humility”
Thank you. The single thing that powers my engine the most is a worldview that honest exchange of frank opinions should be allowed. I should try not to let my sensitivity or any ‘snowflake’ side stop me hearing things I find difficult. This is how intellectual curiousity works and how learning happens. There are too many forces in the world trying to close down this kind of discourse. To be a good human I want to encourage it.
[Remembers paragraph break 😉] . By the nature of wanting such discourse of frank exchange of different views, I have to also accept a premise that some views will be more valid or ‘truthful’ than others. Also that it can be hard to tell that, when we communicate in words only, in a public arena, on very sensitive topics to us, with strong emotive components.
But with my premise goes the point that sometimes *I* will be the one who is wrong or skewed. It is also part of my learning to know and accept when that’s the case. I will try to show complete humility if I recognise that. But I won’t fold for the sake of an easy life either – if I still think I am right then I will hold my stance. It will sound like a ridiculously lofty thing to say – but by being like this, it is how I believe I can make my small individual contribution to making humanity better. (Gawd, an NT brain can be exhausting at times. Get me back to the farm or the Inn!).
“This can be done only when the offended is out of upsetting zone and after misunderstanding is clearly sorted out. The former is already achieved, but not completely the latter”
If we are talking about the debate between you and I about my seemingly ‘cynical’ comments about my MFF, then it is completely achieved *from my side*. I recognise that is only one side, so we can discuss more from your side. But to assure you, I now have nothing more to get out about it – I understand now and have moved on. We’re good as far as I’m concerned 😀
If we are talking about the discussion from last week about Trifles’ TO, then I feel there is an extra problem that it isn’t my debate to have. I made a mistake inserting myself into it. The debate should only continue if the more involved people want it to.
All that I think should be debated with me are my contributions to it (we have done some of that already) and the issue on a more theoretical level, not connected to the specific case. This holds true unless or until Trifles wants to discuss that case more.
I will, however, write you another message below this to unpack my terribly dense paragraph about that matter, as you requested that!
I am also working on how that Agape 🟠 cocktail might look and taste.
@Trifles
If you are seeing this, I hope you have got some more clarity and calm about your TO in the last week. Please feel free to update us when the time is good for you (‘there is always room at the inn’ and other such cheesy puns) – or not, if that feels like the better option. Hope you’re doing Ok now anyway 🙂
LaR,
Thank you for not jamming all shaped, colored seeds in one spot of the LwL land… Farmland are divided in rows for reasons! 🚜
“I should try not to let my sensitivity or any ‘snowflake’ side stop me hearing things I find difficult. “
We all have our “snowflake” spots on our skin, visible as peachy silk or invisible behind Stoic shield.
“By the nature of wanting such discourse of frank exchange of different views, I have to also accept a premise that some views will be more valid or ‘truthful’ than others. “
I totally agree with you here, only more unwillingly admit my “wrongs” publicly in the past, due to my W#8. Working with you as the barmen, I think I can slowly heal W#8.
“Also that it can be hard to tell that, when we communicate in words only, in a public arena, on very sensitive topics to us, with strong emotive components.”
Then think about “authenticity” or “objectivity” of Online friendship, LE, TE, GF❓— the general issue I haven’t addressed about.
“I will try to show complete humility if I recognise that.”
This is what I really need to learn from you, most!
“But I won’t fold for the sake of an easy life either – if I still think I am right then I will hold my stance. “
I certainly will cheer you up on this! Your vanilla-flavored validating, peacemaking skills are unique, very hard to learn/imitate for me, but some times I worry that they might weaken your stance or enable opposite points of views that are unproductive or counter-productive to holders themselves. My impatient, direct style to target even just at topics is hard to deal with, despite our T goals are same.
“If we are talking about the debate between you and I about my seemingly ‘cynical’ comments about my MFF, then it is completely achieved *from my side*. “
Every side of that stone is turned on the topic, CLOSED.
“If we are talking about the discussion from last week about Trifles’ TO, then I feel there is an extra problem that it isn’t my debate to have.”
That’s the topic I still haven’t delivered my reasoning yet, there are universal elements (I experienced myself) I’ve seen (from some old posts) here even before Trifles and I came on board.
Repeating myself again, I had little interest in anyone’s LO/TO, due to the limited facts and ever changing effects that LE/TE have casted on limerents — Monday it was A, Tuesday B… Sunday XYZ. Prior to last week, anyone’s post about “s/he said this, I said that” lost my ears (skipped/zoomed right through the posts)… I only checked how the posters felt in the end of a post — vexed or released? clearer minded or more confused? A bit more peaceful or agitated?
But right after Trifles expressed her upset feeling about TO’s upcoming trip, you “ordered” me to fix a drink for her. So I had to scan through again to see what was said between you two EA GFs. Then after my first straight, stingy drink, what happened? — a healed scar under my Warrior’s uniform was given “sympathy” and I was “naively” deemed to have “lost faith” in half of humanity ! 🙃 (Trying to be funny here 🤡 …)
An Amazon warrior can 🤺 with trolls without blinking eyes, but cannot punch GFs, especially sweet, cute, and “chosen being naive” ones. So the only option for me was to quit the job at inn and leave the farm. Who ever hinted that Trifles had to leave 🛖? I was amazed at your T deduction! 🥴 even considering DA style/traits underneath the steel armor, what would she do in such a situation? No understandings? Then Run!
“All that I think should be debated with me are my contributions to it (we have done some of that already) and the issue on a more theoretical level, not connected to the specific case.”
I hope that you see that sometimes your rush chivalry defense of damsels in distress has made a simpler topic more complicated to discuss, (Mila could tell you about her experience of last Fall playing a big hen — I’m pulling your leg, Mila! 😀 ) especially if a rose-cheek maiden in distress is “praised” and considered highly intelligent and resilient. What you were doing might have undervalued her emotional intelligence and adaptive strengths, from which I certainly need to learn!
“This holds true unless or until Trifles wants to discuss that case more.”
Hmm… you’re volunteering as a mediator here? I still “owe” Trifles a response, should I hold my tongue and leave some topics hanging on the cliff, so we could silent view them while sipping our various flavored drinks in Amoor Inn?
“I am also working on how that Agape 🟠 cocktail might look and taste”
I think Agape cocktail 🍸 can’t be non-alcohol smoothies — too weak. Spirit infused ones can be sweet, or bitter, or bitter-sweet but should have EFFECTS of 🤕 S soothing , ☄️ F awakening, and 🧠 T spinning, 🤝 bonding 🫂, and Self-discovery, Self-validating, Self-parenting seeds 🌱 (NO mixing with human DNA engined kinds🙈) planting and watering 🌾
Snow,
I’ll respond properly later. But for now – to what I think is the most important question – please don’t refrain from a reply to Trifles. I will promise to stay out of any exchange to result. I may not have been clear (even in my own thoughts) on this point – but what I really meant is I think it is past the point where I can rightfully debate Trifles’ things with you. Not that you shouldn’t debate that with her. I don’t have the right to suggest that, or decree that. If I seemed to, I’m sorry.
Like I say, I will reply to a few other points in the above message later but then make those my last words on the subject.
Hi Snow and Lim and Trifles,
have I been a big hen last fall?
I‘m quite drunk on too much mulled wine, so that’s maybe why I can’t recall what Snow refers to.
And I think I can live without knowing, because at the moment it’s best for me to let past stuff be past;
also I think it’s ok for all, especially for Trifles (correct me if I’m wrong) to move on from this little spot of disagreement/misunderstanding? I might be wrong (and drunk) and you feel you can learn from this discussion, then I apologize.
We could discuss more present stuff, like where did that welder disappear to and why do you not serve mulled wine at the Inn.
Hi Snow,
My answer to the main point is above and I won’t repeat it here. There are just a few more points I’d like to explain a bit more.
“right after Trifles expressed her upset feeling about TO’s upcoming trip, you “ordered” me to fix a drink for her.”
Not quite. Trifles’ said (29th Nov, 8.03am) “I need a smoothie and a sympathetic ear from a barman [indirectly ‘calling me in’]/fellow patron”. I saw that message just before going to (real) work one day, knowing I wouldn’t be in a position to properly reply until the late evening. So I said (8.45am) “Snow with her cocktails is on lates today [not around yet with the alcohol]. So I’ve [working the bar on the early shift] mixed you up an apple, kiwi and watermelon smoothie to soothe those frayed nerves. Grab yourself a stool and let’s see which other patrons turn up with helpful words.” My request for you to make her a cocktail was made much later that day (10.57pm) as I thought that might help her absorb my direct words (10.51pm). That from me was a metaphorical “please make a drink” not a literal “please comment on the situation”, though it may not have been clear. (You had already commented in the interim).
“So the only option for me was to quit the job at inn and leave the farm.”
I never asked for that. In fact, quite the opposite, I said: “The Amoors Inn needs you, Snow … it needs all the different flavours of drink you can dispense” (2nd Dec 5.57pm)
“I hope that you see that sometimes your rush chivalry defense of damsels in distress has made a simpler topic more complicated to discuss”
Yes, in some situations, I can. It is not what Trifles said in response to my posts about this situation though. For example, she said: “Thank you LaR – Snow was right, you do have just the words I need! I think you are right about everything. I just needed someone to remind me, because my position is not always easy.” And elsewhere: “LaR got it right that it is a two-way street”.
“especially if a rose-cheek maiden in distress is “praised” and considered highly intelligent and resilient.”
The ‘highly intelligent’ stuff – while I would not disagree with the assessment – has mostly come from Sammy, not me. I have told Trifles a few times, always after asking her ‘probing’ questions and getting good answers, that I believe she has a handle on the TE situation and that it is not harming anyone. I have always caveated that with “as long as it isn’t having a net negative effect on your wellbeing or anyone else’s” or similar.
“What you were doing might have undervalued her emotional intelligence and adaptive strengths, from which I certainly need to learn!”
Though I take the gist of the point, I do believe if I was doing that to Trifles, she would come back at me and ask me not to do it. She has not been afraid to point out to me when I was inaccurate about something in the past. We had pre-understanding of each other – I didn’t come at that post cold. However, all that said, I stick to my earlier apology to you for entering into the exchanges between the two of you – I should have left it to you both – and I will learn from it. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
—
There was a point where the exchange felt like it was going well, where Trifles thanked us both and said she’d learned bits from what we’d both said (November 30, 8.42am message). It was when you said the following part that I thought you were making assumptions and going too far:
“TO is not only delusional, coward, but also relies on/uses Trifles for validation/rebounding bag; then can’t even appreciate her valuable friendship via a cup of coffee in public” (1st Dec, 1.01pm)
I’d also doubled down on something that same morning and probably began to confuse matters compared to the clear reply I’d written the night before. It was at that point I thought we should raise the white flags, and said so.
I will be true to my word from earlier that I will say no more on this subject unless asked (noted, Mila). Snow, you can respond to any of this obviously, but I will stop there.
Mila,
I am glad you are in the Christmas spirit! 🤪 I have been this week, too!
Did you not see the bit where I mixed up a massive vat of mulled wine for the carpentry repair job phase last week? Where were you while we were re-building the wall?! Mind you, you of all people warned me about that welder.
The Amoors Inn would most definitely be pleased to serve a variant of mulled wine from your part of the world in the run-up to Christmas, as I think it is the best kind. If you can source some, that’s a done deal!
❄,
Back in the more sugar-coated lands, I have been thinking about that Agape cocktail you mentioned and I think ‘bittersweet’ (but ending on a sweet note) could be the best way to go. At my mixology class tonight (a Google search), I found the ‘Watermelon Negroni’. Let me know what you think.
Ingredients:
-Equal parts: Gin; Campari; Sweet vermouth; Fresh watermelon juice
-1 watermelon slice
– Peel of 1 orange
Description: The Watermelon Negroni has a harmonious blend of sweet and bitter flavours. The watermelon’s natural sweetness and juiceiness cuts through the bitterness of the campari, while the gin provides botanical complexity. The sweet vermouth ties it all together with a smooth, herbal finish”
Or, look up the ‘Goodnight Kiss’ cocktail if the above one doesn’t quite work for you!
With these plus Mila’s mulled wine, December is looking bright at the Inn.
@ Mila, Trifles, LaR, Bewitched (call her to locate the Welder)
Both cocktails sound delicious, go for them! Goodnight Kiss is such a delicious name!
(By the way, LaR, are you working professionally in law❓)
******
Lament
Rainer Maria Rilke
translated from the German by Jessie Lamont
Oh! All things are long passed away and far.
A light is shining but the distant star
From which it still comes to me has been dead
A thousand years . . . In the dim phantom boat
That glided past some ghastly thing was said.
A clock just struck within some house remote.
Which house?—I long to still my beating heart.
Beneath the sky’s vast dome I long to pray . . .
Of all the stars there must be far away
A single star which still exists apart.
And I believe that I should know the one
Which has alone endured and which alone
Like a white City that all space commands
At the ray’s end in the high heaven stands
Hi!
I hid from rebuilding the wall, I’m very bad at this stuff. And the welder seems more menacing when out of sight.
„ I long to still my beating heart.
Beneath the sky’s vast dome I long to pray . “
This is not correctly translated in my opinion.
The literal translation is „I want (or „would like“, sth not as strong as „want“)to step out of my heart under the vast sky. I want (would like) to pray.“
Translation of poems, very difficult. Somehow the translation doesn’t convey to me the feeling of the original at all.
„ Like a white City that all space commands“
That’s not written there.
Literal translation:
„that stands like a white city at the end of the ray in the skies“. Nothing about commanding anything.
Mila,
You know exactly which other community member you need to ask about the welder.
It all occurred while I was away! I learned a big innkeeping lesson: never take a holiday.
Hi guys, I was busy this weekend on a small getaway that may have included some mulled wine and Christmas spirit (or spirits). I’m a bit over last weekend’s topic already. If you haven’t noticed, I don’t think I’ve commented on it since a week ago. 😀 But you haven’t needed me, the conversation has flown nonetheless. 😉
But since you bring it up – I don’t mind getting advice for myself. (I think I originally asked for a “sympathetic” ear, but you don’t always get what you ask for and that’s fine by me!) But this time I felt the discussion veered into a not-so-productive direction: criticizing the 3rd party mentioned. I didn’t complain about that (much), instead I said you two can continue debating the issues beneath it on an abstract level (i.e. no individuals “named”) if the issue sparked your interest. I don’t want to use time in correcting misunderstandings or defending myself/someone else. There’s nothing to be gained from that. And I can’t change the third party’s behavior, I can only change my own. That’s why I only said that it’s fine if you disagree (and I meant it).
Later I thought Snow explained why she criticized him (based on her own experience) and I tried to say I understand and “sympathize” (there’s that horrible word again) with her point of view.
On the internet you can’t affect how someone is going to respond. How they respond only shows their own point of view and communication style, not yours. We can either ignore an opinion or do something with it. It’s our choice.
I think we’ve exhausted this topic, and for some topics we just need to agree to disagree. That’s the beauty of different perspectives. And all is fine with me. Now, I could grab a mug of that mulled wine!
Fully received and understood, Trifles.
I said yesterday I’d bow out of saying a word more. I meant it – lesson learned.
Now I’ll get pouring then ‘ as long as you promise that welder isn’t coming anywhere near my new bar!
Mila,
That is the only line I don’t quite get; it feels disconnected with the rest of the poem, that is very coherent.
Translation of poetry accurately is near impossible, due to cultual subtlety.
Hi Snow,
this poem is tricky to translate, but she got some basic things wrong, like „ghastly“, that’s simply wrong.
Also, there is a lot of „I think“ and „I would like“ and subjunctive (?) in the poem, one can feel this inner longing, but it’s only a longing, and the translator makes it a certainty , which feels wrong.
This star at the end :“I think I would know which one would have solely endured, the one that stands like a white city at the end of the ray in the skies“ or heavens, since that’s the same word in German.
The thing is that Rilke uses a beautiful simpleness of language but a lot of meaning, it is hard to translate.
Mila,
I’d love to know what words would be better to use, would you please substitute your own, so I could understand them more accurately? Thanks.
Hi Snow,
I‘m not a poet, all I can do is translate it literally as I did..
Trifles (LaR- a sideline ear),
I really don’t have time (it’s final two weeks) to write down things, which has been cooked in my head for 10 days, and I enjoyed it even if I haven’t got a chance to get the meal out of my mental oven and put on Amoor Inn’s table. (Mila, here is one example when I boasted that I enjoy giving without wanting about getting anything back — I’ve given my mental energy and physical time to cook a elaborated meal, and I can just eat it entirely by myself! — it really validate myself! )
Trifles: one thing I NEED to clarify here — I did NOT critique your TO based on my LE5 experience, but ON the limited facts you provided through various posts. (I’ll elaborate it later if you wish).
I mentioned LO5/LE5 as a Stoic warning: that could happen to you or anyone else, if you don’t keep alert 👁️🗨️ on. But you insist on “naivety” is a way for you move forward… which IMO will possibly bring more pains to you and naive souls… (I’ll elaborate later if you or anyone wish)
Your case, in my eyes, has a lot of universal elements on a general level (I have experienced them all), that’s why I wish to discuss with you or whoever is interested. (But LaR blocked my way to even get a bit closer to you! 🙄 LaR, are your breeches locked securely? 🤺 )
It’s not hard for me to sympathy with anyone or anyone’s dire situation (I can also convincingly validate without meaning it.) But my T brain always search for POSSIBLE causes involved and plausible solutions — our mental, psychological treatment of our dilemmas.
My principle is: if I truly want to help someone, I’ll help them find individually effective tools to solve their individual problem, not giving just watery, little/no substantial stuff, which is sweetly important to heart for a time being. (You noticed, and I was attacked for, that I rarely said anything soothing to betrayed SOs, because I was never in their shoes, so had little experience of their authentic pains. 1000 pages of sympathetic words would NOT take their pains away or prevent future ones. I’m looking forward to DrL’s tool on that.)
One thing I want to say but you do not have to believe or accept — if I don’t care about you, if that 🐝 LaR did not ask me, I’d just keep my mouth shot.
Mila,
“This poem is tricky to translate, but she got some basic things wrong, like „ghastly“, that’s simply wrong.”
Which word should replace “ghastly”? This is a KEY word I really would like to know. Thanks.
(as an ESL speaker, I’m “picky” about all the words I used in my posts, over thinking about their connotations or possible misleading…)
Hi Snow,
he uses the word „bang“ (can also be „bange“), which means frightened, uneasy,something like that. It’s scared- not like in panic, something more inside and anxious.
Snow,
Here are the important points from that tangled paragraph of mine, broken down. To make it easier I have removed all ‘fluff’, so if my writing style sounds more curt or direct than normal, that’s why. Any reference to my LE in that paragraph was mainly fluff (removed here) but used as an example of where constructive communication with you has been helpful to a (this) limerent.
1. When you were offered ‘sympathy’, the culturally different COO meaning of and its possible resulting condescending-sound, was not understood by the person offering it. She meant the sympathy well. I can now see your perspective and why it wasn’t gladly received.
2. We needed the cultural discussion about the word meaning to reach that point of understanding.
3. I jumped in to defend based partly on knowing it was meant well.
4. I also have an instinct (comes from a protector) to want people to understand each other. I jumped in partly because I believed myself capable of defusing the misunderstanding and helping you two understand each other better. I am actually good at this stuff, but I can overdo it.
5. Trifles recognised for herself and apologised to you for an assumption she made based on the information given. That’s part of the ‘defusing the misunderstanding’ that I have no role in.
6. I can overďo the amount of jumping in to such situations. I was talking to Trifles in the same thread giving my views (asked for by her). But I now think it would have been better for me to stay out of the part of the discussion between you and her, and let the pair of you figure it out. So I apologise for inserting myself into that part.
7. We all know our own LE better than anyone else on LwL, as we are living the situation in front of us
8. That doesn’t mean we know our LE perfectly. We will have flawed reasoning by the nature of limerence.
9. Other LwLers can help us find those reasoning flaws and help us understand them and what our options are to deal with them.
10. In doing so, a gentle approach of inquiring and prompting will be preferred by a majority of posters (not all) ‘receiving’ the guidance of others.
11. To be more direct than that and to state apparent facts or truths about another’s LE or LO involves making a lot of assumptions and could backfire. It’s especially true if we are talking not directly about the responding LwL ghost with a voice here, but someone else connected to them such as their LO, with no voice here.
12. My assessment was that we were getting close to doing that to Trifles – making value laden judgements about her TO. I include myself and you in the ‘we’ here.
14. Coming back to points 7 and 8, and to try and sum up my argument … my feeling is that to be a supportive community, we should offer suggestions to other posters based on the facts they provide (I like your idea on this note of trying to focus on the issue, not the person). But we must also know that each LE and involved people are unique, and the person living in it has the strongest knowledge and ‘data’ about it. We are secondary analysts, they the primary. And we will probably not, ultimately, move them too far from their own conceptions of the situation. Gentle nudges not huge shunts are the order of the day.
15. Trifles knows the facts of her case best. We’d given enough that she could then assimilate what we’d said with her own understanding of things with TO (the best understanding of that relationship, and one that normally comes across balanced and self aware), and decide which bits to take on board and which not. By carrying on we risked being counter-productive.
All of the above is offered in the spirit of ‘just my opinions and willing to be shown as wrong’.
Hope this helps compared to the way I wrote it yesterday!
LaR,
Your P#23, 24 are perked up!
“so if my writing style sounds more curt or direct than normal, that’s why. “
Thank God, you’ve reduced buttery stuff, my cholesterol level needs to be cut down… Lean substance brewed in clear broth is highly appreciated here… ☺️
“1. She meant the sympathy well. I can now see your perspective and why it wasn’t gladly received.”
I haven’t heard/seen anything she said that was not meant well. But the immediate response upon hearing it was still aggravating to an “Amazon Warrior” ears. Now, it was clear why.
“3. I jumped in to defend based partly on knowing it was meant well.”
But do you admit that some times it is true that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”? 🟰 “Ignorance is the cause of 90% of all tragedies.” — Confucius.
“4. “I jumped in partly because I believed myself capable of defusing the misunderstanding and helping you two understand each other better. I am actually good at this stuff, but I can overdo it.”
Your Nobel intention and highly social lubricating skills are appreciated by me, a humble student in this arena. But do you think you’ve known all my corky sides originated by COO or my own experiences and their consequential “crooked” behaviors?
“5. Trifles recognised for herself and apologised to you for an assumption she made based on the information given. That’s part of the ‘defusing the misunderstanding’ that I have no role in.”
I appreciate her post, just haven’t got around in how to rationally respond, which poses other challenging, intellectual questions in my head.
6. “But I now think it would have been better for me to stay out of the part of the discussion between you and her, and let the pair of you figure it out. So I apologise for inserting myself into that part.”
Agree! After all, I still wear a cocktail dress underneath the armor, not some hairy legged troll. Isn’t your “chivalry” wasted in a wrong place ?
7. We all know our own LE better than anyone else on LwL, as we are living the situation in front of us.
True and untrue — deeply muddled while in throe of our LE, and clear sighted afterwards or on the way out. We know all our pains and struggles, but most of time could not see their causes (mostly coming from ourselves), outsiders could possibly see them without any emotional entanglement.
8. That doesn’t mean we know our LE perfectly. We will have flawed reasoning by the nature of limerence.
Precisely!
9. Other LwLers can help us find those reasoning flaws and help us understand them and what our options are to deal with them.
That’s what I tried to offer my subjective observations biased on given facts; then I was “backfired”.
10. In doing so, a gentle approach of inquiring and prompting will be preferred by a majority of posters (not all) ‘receiving’ the guidance of others.
I don’t ever think/presume I could give guidance to any posters here, with so many of my own Protectors active and a few Wounds not totally healed yet. Growing up in COO, I don’t know how to butter dishes of my points of views in the Western style. I’m learning from your vanilla-chats with others; but my patience often out quickly — my most annoying Protector/flaw (I even yell 😱 at my slow-learning students then regretted.)
11. “To be more direct than that and to state apparent facts or truths about another’s LE or LO involves making a lot of assumptions and could backfire.”
Your point are well taken here, that’s why I did not even read a lot of “facts” of others’ LOs/TOs and LEs/TEs; I could not make anything out of them. Only to thick-skinned GFs like you, I would speak more directly based on Stoicism and my own naive experiences and the consequential pains. If you didn’t ask me, I still would not have spoken any word regarding her TO/TE.
“It’s especially true if we are talking not directly about the responding LwL ghost with a voice here, but someone else connected to them such as their LO, with no voice here.”
I would tell Trifler directly what I would say or do if I were in her TO’s shoe. I don’t think we could interpret accurately all what our LO/TO have communicated even to our face, let alone via online contrived/composed/edited written words. If communication and mutual understanding were that simple, why so many pulls-n-pushes Merry go ‘round in literally every LE/TE here, including yours and mine?
12. My assessment was that we were getting close to doing that to Trifles – making value laden judgements about her TO. I include myself and you in the ‘we’ here.
I am sorry, my mind was not in “we” with you. First, I skipped all your around-clock chat about him; then your assessment 😳 me…
14. “Coming back to points 7 and 8, and to try and sum up my argument … my feeling is that to be a supportive community, we should offer suggestions to other posters based on the facts they provide (I like your idea on this note of trying to focus on the issue, not the person).”
My assumption on any LE, were strictly based on the limited facts given. My preferred support is to ask some “stinging”/ prickly questions and may point out possible dark sides of their LE to be considered (Only to few GFs), which I assume most limerents, (include myself), just don’t want to hear. So I remain quiet to many other posters. (limited availability as well)
I also think If suggestions are too buttery, they could become enabling our LE illusions. COO has an idiom: “Bitter medicine is good for the illness, but sweet words are good for the heart.” Do we want to get rid of LE or just want to feel good to be validated for our existing, lingering or agonizing LE/TEs??
“But we must also know that each LE and involved people are unique, and the person living in it has the strongest knowledge and ‘data’ about it.”
True to certain degree. Knowledge and data gathered in the altered state of mind do not necessarily lead to insightful wisdoms (like that of DrL) or provide effective solutions and cures. DrL has proved 400 tools, how many are used wisely and constantly?
“We are secondary analysts, they the primary. And we will probably not, ultimately, move them too far from their own conceptions of the situation.”
That’s why many are still stuck in ages. I think I’ve been “enlightened” fast by many insightful posts, whether in response to me or not. If one’s mind truly open, one can “move” mountains!
“Gentle nudges not huge shunts are the order of the day.”
I’ll leave this to you to serve while reducing the size of my “shunts”. 😀
“By carrying on we risked being counter-productive.”
I’ll keep my mouth shot as before, and please do not order me to serve anyone a drink. They can order themselves.
“All of the above is offered in the spirit of ‘just my opinions and willing to be shown as wrong’.”
You have a bigger mind and nobler heart that are large enough for sailing ships. But If you don’t quickly step out of the way between an Amazon warrior and a red-skirted maiden in Amoor Inn, my 🗡️ will slice open your breeches in public soon! 🙄
Snow, all is well between us, don’t worry. I could see – in hindsight – that you were taking a stand because you were worried about me.
“I did NOT critique your TO based on my LE5 experience”
Fair enough, goes to show that you can still understand someone wrong even though you thought the message was clear (from one’s own perspective). And Stoic warning received! There’s a balance between opening yourself up to fully appreciate everything good and setting yourself up for a big fall.
“But you insist on “naivety” is a way for you move forward… which IMO will possibly bring more pains to you and naive souls…”
Yes, I insist on following my own path and making my own mistakes, 😜 but someone else might better heed the good advice. We could argue forever about the different ways of confronting life, but I don’t think it would make us change our opinions. I think there’s a lot of good in what I know about Stoicism, and I think I’ve tried to follow it in small amounts. As for pessimism, I’ve had enough of it – I called it realism – and am old enough now to be an optimist. Maybe I will try that for the second half of life! If for nothing else, than that I prefer happy-go-lucky old ladies to their alternative (not saying Stoics will be like that, but pessimists).
LaR, I did not mind you defending me at all. I was ready to hire you as my spokesperson, that’s how well you were able to communicate my point of view, without even knowing me. I think that was another good example of people being nice to you when you are willing to accept it.
For a T (an intuitive one), I have my own “superstitions”. Did I ever tell the story of when I sent that stupid gift to LO? While I was sending it, I reasoned to myself: “This is just a random act of kindness. I’m not expecting anything in return. Just sending something good out to the universe.” And then a few weeks later I randomly received a really sweet gift in the mail. Now, I never get random gifts in the mail! But this time I did. (Not from him of course, from a friend.) And I like to think that after sending something nice out, the universe sent me something nice back. (Even though I wasn’t truly being altruistic but I guess I fooled the universe, if not myself!) Optimism – and some superstition – keeps showing us these examples when we look for them. 😉
Trifles, (LaR, the barmen & spokesman)
For the first time, I have patience (also not having enough time) to rush out my extended thoughts and internal debates (brewing my own meal) sprung 11/29th, which is, as I said, somewhat universal, relevant to many others, not just your case.
But you guys keep “battling” balls one after another at my initial cocktail serve, based on your own assumptions… I just watched and sighed, because I still could not 🏓 with you due to limited time and piled deadlines — I have to give an exam later today, then grading… (I answered other posts fast because they are easier, straight forward… I hate to make anyone waiting! )
“Snow, all is well between us, don’t worry. I could see – in hindsight – that you were taking a stand because you were worried about me.”
Very true! There is no question about it!
“ And Stoic warning received! There’s a balance between opening yourself up to fully appreciate everything good and setting yourself up for a big fall.”
I don’t think I’ve ever hinted that you or anyone else is knowingly “setting oneself up for a big fall” — please don’t exaggerate the argument itself. We (everyone does) may have different understanding of stoicism here, I’ll elaborate later.
Yes, I insist on following my own path and making my own mistakes, 😜 ]
I did not mention in my last post to your original one, naivety can hurt/harm others as well, because “good thing” means different to different people, e.g. “good parenting” mean different things in different cultures. I agree with a motto shared by both the East and West — Ignorance is the cause of 90% of all tragedies”. I’ll address it later. Do we want to ignorantly cause harms on others, when we are willing take and accept our own risks?
“but someone else might better heed the good advice. We could argue forever about the different ways of confronting life, but I don’t think it would make us change our opinions. “
I haven’t got a chance to fully present my opinions, only brushed them a little bit.
“I think there’s a lot of good in what I know about Stoicism, and I think I’ve tried to follow it in small amounts. As for pessimism, I’ve had enough of it – I called it realism – and am old enough now to be an optimist. “
While I don’t know yours well, I know some views that have mistakenly equaled Stoicism with pessimism, which is just “wrong” based on my interpretation and mental practices. There is a healthy dose of pessimism/realism in Stoicism, but there is a lot more in actions based on “virtues” of the time and mental strength as well as adaptability. Again, Stoic is NOT being stoic.
“Maybe I will try that for the second half of life! If for nothing else, than that I prefer happy-go-lucky old ladies to their alternative (not saying Stoics will be like that, but pessimists).”
You sound so like my Granny, who can’t be bent down by any “downfall” in her life — lost children, grandson, personal belongings, fortunes… in front of her eyes… Two weeks later, she bounced back like a new blooming flower.
“LaR, I did not mind you defending me at all. I was ready to hire you as my spokesperson, that’s how well you were able to communicate my point of view, without even knowing me. I think that was another good example of people being nice to you when you are willing to accept it.”
We are lucky to have “met” LaR here, but how many didn’t “click” before him? Think of “random”/probability law in mathematics. You raise that brain spinning, universal question here — online knowing/knowledge. How much do we know each other (or online friends/dates) based on only Words— selective, contrived/created, edited, omitted… without knowing half or more than half of realistic facts (reality check) and nor our five-sense based knowledge? Can knowledge obtained in one domain be authentically and comfortably transferred to another — the realistic realm?
“For a T (an intuitive one), I have my own “superstitions”. Did I ever tell the story of when I sent that stupid gift to LO? While I was sending it, I reasoned to myself: “This is just a random act of kindness. I’m not expecting anything in return. Just sending something good out to the universe.” “
Many of us have done that, I never listed here what I’ve given ET, LO5, 6… I truly never expected anything back to begin with. LO5 “returned” thoughtful ones. By the way, I thought T brains stand for rational one, which I based on while discussing and debating with LaR.
“And then a few weeks later I randomly received a really sweet gift in the mail. Now, I never get random gifts in the mail! But this time I did. (Not from him of course, from a friend.)”
I guess it’s not coincident in your eyes. In COO, we just call it “karma” effect. It can (not definitely) happen. I’ve received many decent ones, even “missed” being raped or physically dead.
“And I like to think that after sending something nice out, the universe sent me something nice back. (Even though I wasn’t truly being altruistic but I guess I fooled the universe, if not myself!) “
You’re so naively cute! 🥰 This universe is NOT logical, very random, aside from some “scientific” phenomena. One cannot fool it or tame it or rein/bend it towards our wishes. I had my bitter medicines taken but also ignorantly “harmed” others with my naive eyes and acts (the regret is permanent…), thus I can no long afford “to be”…
“Optimism – and some superstition – keeps showing us these examples when we look for them”
You mean “biased confirmation”?
I have to run, later.
Trifles,
I think N stands for intuitive. T is for rationality.
Perhaps this video clip could further refresh and affirm your Stoic stand?
https://youtu.be/AqjuJumBc8Q?si=JlnG2kAYJZZp0l2Z — 7 reasons Why Stocisim is Made for Women too (PROOF)
Have a superb afternoon and evening!
@in delayed subway….
My understanding if Stoicism:
Training a critical and adaptive mind with clear and solid views/insight of what is within one’s control and what is not in physical, emotional, mentAl, professional, relational… domains, while contemplating or foreseeing what could be the most positive results (through one’s healthy efforts, not mere lucks) and mentally prepare for what could be worst possibilities, due to bad lucks or external negative acts, intended or ignorant.
In my understanding, naivety and excessive/“pathological” positivity, often coupled with vanity, ignorance would lead to stupidity thus harm oneself and others unintentionally with possibly irreversibly damages .
Stoicism has little to do with pessimism —sitting around worrying about the worst to strike, but promotes behavioral and mental disciplines to archive possible best results one wishes to get.
Myself would not keep Repeating old regrettable mental habits— wishful, naive, inflexible… and have to weaponize my mind for self protection and doing-no-harm to others. But with Granny’s genes, I’m unable imagining/seeing every rope laid still on my path as a snake, just because I was “bitten” before.
Sorry about all typos.
Snow, thanks for the clarifications and links.
Me: “Optimism – and some superstition – keeps showing us these examples when we look for them”
Snow: “You mean “biased confirmation”?”
Yes, exactly! My thought was said tongue-in-cheek and that’s what I meant. But when you’re optimistic, you notice and appreciate these occurrences more. 😉 It’s about perception. For example I don’t remember when people have been mean or irked me somehow here. Even the ones who sometimes rant can be sweet as molasses. That’s what I prefer to remember.
I also meant that for a seemingly “rational” (T) person, I have my own superstitions. I know N is intuitive.
What you wrote about Stoicism all sounds reasonable to me. I was trying to avoid mixing it up directly with pessimism, because I know it’s not that. And “naïveté” (I’m trying to keep my spelling correct to keep fooling Sammy) was more of a curiosité. A bit of an exaggeration – I liked the quote and I think he was just trying to say that he prefers to see the good in people. You are right that it’s dangerous in some hands. But I do stand by optimism.
That’s a good metaphor with the snakes on the path. And I just think that’s no way to live.
“Myself would not keep Repeating old regrettable mental habits— wishful, naive, inflexible… and have to weaponize my mind for self protection and doing-no-harm to others.”
If I understand you correctly, I think we are coming at this from opposite angles. You feel you have been too wishful or naïve, and should protect yourself more? I feel I haven’t been wishful enough so I will try to protect myself less.
Snow,
“How much do we know each other (or online friends/dates) based on only Words— selective, contrived/created, edited, omitted… without knowing half or more than half of realistic facts (reality check) and nor our five-sense based knowledge?”
I would love to hear your view. Here’s mine.
On one hand, hardly at all. This is a world where we’re all restricting what we say to avoid identifying ourselves, and carefully curating what we do say.
On the other … we do talk about pretty intimate topics. If I’ve had a bad day with my LE this would be the only place I could spill about it and get opinions back from folk who kinda know what I’m going through. Where else outside professional therapy would I find people who’d tolerate the position I’m in, be patient with me and support me so much?
Speaking only for myself, while I have to obfuscate certain details of my LE, all the basic facts you guys know about it are true. What would be the benefit to me or any of us of lying? Nothing I’d then get back would be authentic and helpful.
So do I know any of you, and do you know me? My answer is yes and no. You people know more about the trials and tribulations that have come to define my last year+ than anyone else alive does. Yet you have no way of fact checking me and know little else about me. I think if someone says enough here over a long time there are enough crumbs to get a good idea of their character.
I am a huge backer of my instincts about people and my instinct says almost everyone here on LwL is a good egg 🐣
LaR,
Agree with you. There is no point to coming here and making it about lies. My LE has been a very sensitive subject. Posting it for the world should seem wrong in a lot of ways. To get the gist of my story out here has been a huge help and realizing a rational way to go about matters without going off the deep end. Which I just might have done, had it not been for so many of you..
Whether or not we’re good eggs, I guess is a whole other story..
Trifles,
Short reply here, the longer one is still brewing…
“But when you’re optimistic, you notice and appreciate these occurrences more. 😉 It’s about perception.”
Optimism is not superstition at all, though. It’s to notice and appreciate bright sides of life, tiny or gigantic, even and especially after you see/experience dark sides of life, like my Granny.
“For example I don’t remember when people have been mean or irked me somehow here. Even the ones who sometimes rant can be sweet as molasses. That’s what I prefer to remember.”
I strive to be wise one to “save” myself first, if possible, others on the way.
“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” — Thomas Szasz
“ And “naïveté” (I’m trying to keep my spelling correct to keep fooling Sammy) was more of a curiosité. “
If your naïveté means curiosité, then we are on the same page. In IFS SELF department, my strongest suit is never died curiosity except when I felt suicidal twice in my life (due to LE3 & 5). Curiosity also fuels my creative Phantom.
“ I liked the quote and I think he was just trying to say that he prefers to see the good in people. You are right that it’s dangerous in some hands. But I do stand by optimism.”
I was trying to say that some people do not want to be seen (or compelled to be ) “good” based on others’ measuring sticks, they want to be seen/understood “authentic” with all their colorful hues. Everyone has bright and shadow parts.
“If I understand you correctly, I think we are coming at this from opposite angles. You feel you have been too wishful or naïve, and should protect yourself more?”
The lesson learned in my stories was that I followed my excessive optimism or ignorant naivety and then was bitten by snake… LwL helped me feel less shameful…
A NAIVE MAN IS NOTHING BETTER THAN A FOOL. BUT YOU WOMEN CONTRIVE TO BE NAIVE IN SUCH A WAY THAT IN YOU IT SEEMS SWEET, AND GENTLE, AND PROPER, AND NOT AS SILLY AS IT REALLY IS. – ANTON CHEKHOV –
I’ll strive to keep my curiosity alive while learning to be wise…
🫂
LaR 🧊 (Trifles 🍰 peeking from his back… 👀 ),
This message was partially written earlier than yesterday’s posts, so some points are redundant.
“How much do we know each other (or online friends/dates) based on only Words— selective, contrived/created, edited, omitted… without knowing half or more than half of realistic facts (reality check) and nor our five-sense based knowledge?”
Please bear in mind, that I’ll have to brush Trifle’s case again because the above issue/question was sprung from speculating her situation, trying to help her, and then getting myself “backfired”, due to some assumptions and my quick, unthorough response.
Trifles: I hope by now, you would not mind that I use your case to demonstrate my arguments or an continuous puzzlement. It happened here in LwL (older cases) and also in reality — online dating, LE, TE, friendship….
“On one hand, hardly at all. This is a world where we’re all restricting what we say to avoid identifying ourselves, and carefully curating what we do say.”
Indeed, it’s “hardly at all”, we’re still largely strangers to each other in reality! I envision LwL as another dimension, separated from our real world, with a gate allowing us to freely come and go without any realistic identity but shared psychological pains — limerence. We’re invisible but audible ghosts/“patients” in LwL with one doctor, DrL, guiding us and over watching our interactions with a hope that we might incidentally or purposefully soothe/support each other, in our small, individual ways.
“On the other … we do talk about pretty intimate topics.”
Yes, very secretive, unspeakable, embarrassing, heart-wrenching, spirit intoxicating… topics, that we could not even share with SO, family, or other reality friends. This nature of LwL makes some of us feel closer or more distanced, just like with fellow patients in a medical ward or psychiatric “asylum”. We’re NOT lunatics, but primarily “sick” in one emotional arena, which may lead to discovery of our other mental “aliments” or emotional vulnerabilities.
“Speaking only for myself, while I have to obfuscate certain details of my LE, all the basic facts you guys know about it are true. What would be the benefit to me or any of us of lying? Nothing I’d then get back would be authentic and helpful.”
The matters discussed here has little to do with intentional lying or holding back some facts to protect one’s identity or vulnerability; the latter is NOT lying.
“So do I know any of you, and do you know me? My answer is yes and no“
My question/puzzlement: with all, limited facts provided, do we know each other as a WHOLE person❓ My argument is — we know each other by our interpretation of our words, subjective deductions/interpretations, and wishful imaginations, but we do NOT and may NEVER know each other as a WHOLE person in this LwL town❗️Without our essential 5-sense based knowledge, in-person spontaneous communications, interactions and feedback, and “chemical/neutral” sensations taking place only when you face a fleshy person, I feel/think I know you/others as a human being less than HALF realistic.
There is no doubt that words in between lines can convey some subtly and feelings, but often they mirror readers’ subjectivity or personality. The worse, they can confuse more or mess up matters in hand (talk with Wittgenstein!) With the same set of words, we get various impressions or interpretations (for Mila’s case) based on our cultural conditioning and personal rationality.
As I told here before last year, I had huge disappointments when meeting online “friends” in reality (2 women, 5 men), because they came across so differently from my imagination/interoperation of them, based on their words in my chatroom or dating apps. After those in-person meetings, I couldn’t even maintain so-so friendship with them (except the best lover for a short period of time); the “friendships”or “closeness” created beforehands were all gone ; nothing I did or thought could save them. If once or twice of such disappointing encounter was incidental, then 7 times over became a common phenomenon, at least in my reality. ☹️
That’s why I insisted on a graphic notion that we are “ghosts” here to each other. You also said once that we would appear very different in reality from our mental images of each other sheerly formed by written words jere. We know a part, a very important, abstract/intangible part of our mind/heart, but nothing of our physical being that radiates our spirit(soul) which can only be sensed and seen through our soul/spirit-revealing eyes. I can tell my friends that I know a Mind named “LaR”, but not a Person named “LaR” in reality.
Now, if words spoken here are carefully chosen, contrived, fabricated, omitted for other purposes, e.g. aimed for sympathy, validation, ego, comforting or even seductive games, then even less of an authentic Self could be shown or learned here. It’s like an author telling just a partial auto-biography, the readers get to know about the story, even in details, but not the realistic author behind it — how s/he speaks, walks, smiles and smells, cries or frowns, or laughs…. Does she/he appear ugly or beautiful, or just so-so?
Why am I babbling these stuff? Back to Trifler’s case, quite common nowadays with internet. Based on the limited facts provided in her various posts, my direct inquiry (“what would happen if you do not text for 10 day or 2 weeks”), and her TO’s texting routine (1st and last daily activity), I could not help get a strong impression that the both sides are “obsessed/addicted” with each other’s written words (not sure if phone chatting is involved), not the real person! Through words, they felt validated, emotionally supported and became mutually co-dependent. It might have distracted her LE pains, but also made her subconsciously entering another LE-like relationship.
Back on 11/29, my initial questions were: do they really know each other through those written words? True that they knew each other a long time ago (but everyone naturally changes as time goes by) and reconnected 7 months ago, only on texting. The long distanced connection, with no reality-check, no fresh/regular five-sense knowledge/feedback, no occasional face-to-face meeting (he turned her request down last summer), was refreshed and rebuilt merely by mutually wanted words and needed words. I could not help wonder how much authenticity those words could tell about an old friend in his or her present reality — one was cheated on by SO; another in LE and tried to run away from it.
Like Trifles’ self-enquire about her tendency to keep long-distance friendship, I questioned the same — what/how one is really benefiting from online friendship-communication, which also seemingly preventing her from making efforts to befriend in her own local vicinity. (Trifles, I’m glad to hear you had some short, quick crush experiences lately, although unfruitful). But as you stated, you’d figure out that puzzle yourself.
Now Trifles, if I remember incorrectly or missed something, please correct me. The facts that made me worry about or “judged” your TO are:
1. He’s been given a green hat to wear and a permission to do whatever he wants outside his marriage, but he wants to save the marraige(?)
2. You said he’s in denial (LaR confirmed), and needs to find solutions for his own dilemma.
3. He bad mouthed his SO a lot (you knew her before their marriage) which made you to form more negative views about her.
4. He texted you the first/last thing of the day, you had to restrict him not to text after midnight.
5. You admit that you’d be unable to stop texting him for 10 days.
6. You both got a lot of validation from each other, and you felt good being able to help and give as a good friend; but lately you felt that he “used” you only for validation.
7. You felt sometimes you were his 2nd wife (?) outside his marriage but still not important or needed enough (based on Mila’s empathy).
8. You thought he’s “noble” prioritizing his family duties (yet everyday he texted you first and last moments and several times in between… ).
9. You felt upset because for the 2nd time(?) since last July, he said he could not meet you in person in the upcoming trip.
10. I probably forgot some other scattered facts given by your accumulated posts from a few months…
Based on my COO concept of a true friendship and my Buddhistic practice — giving without expecting anything in return, what/how do you think I would have reacted when LaR asked me to fix you a drink? Besides my own word “coward”, what else I could use?
********
[if I were in your TO’s shoe, Trifles, I would do:
1. Firmly and calmly tell my SO that I need and must see my true friend, whom she knows as well, because it’s right to appreciate a true friend’s support/friendship. Ask SO to watch/play with the kids for a few hours.
2. Try every means (nothing is impossible nowadays) to see you in person, even just for a couple of coffee/lunch in public and sincerely thank you for all your day and night texting support. I’d buy an imperishable, lasting gift of your taste for you.
3. Tell you that I might still need your friendship and support, but will figure out effective ways to sort out my marital problems — getting individual or couple therapy or marriage consulting.
Then I’d take leave and return to my kids and estranged SO]
*********
LaR immediately spoke up for your TO, either from his would-be preference if he were in TO’s shoe or from his caring for your stress (TO desires/wants to see you, but he cannot because of his possibly uncontrollable, “ignoble” action…. he has very strong feelings for you…. ). This prompted me to use my LO5’s negative view on his own gender or on his own experience to counter-argue with LaR. If I use my own points of views, those Jim (a poster from England last year) like ghosts would name/attack me again as a “man hater”!
Trifles: if you pay attention to my original responding post, you’d see that I never said how I reacted to LO5’s views on men. Later I explained that I used his points as a warning to my Stoic practice — don’t be too naive about men. There are bag eggs out there, but not every man or woman is one.
Moreover, LO’s generalization does not represent every other man’s or woman’s world view. Himself might have lost faith in his own gender (he’s a brilliant intellectual and artist, but cynical and severely anxious and depressed) but I did not — there is my Lancelot somewhere. Otherwise, there would be no LO6 & 7 in my life later, or my sporadic purple proses and highly -engaged interactions with male-ghosts in this forum. So your assumptions about my view on men had few/no bases, perhaps would be applicable to some others’ mindset if they were in my LE5 shoe?
“You people know more about the trials and tribulations that have to define my last year+ than anyone else alive does. Yet you have no way of fact checking me and know little else about me. “
It’s very true with every poster here!
”I think if someone says enough here over a long time there are enough crumbs to get a good idea of their character.”
By the time we get enough dropped crumbs, some of characters may have changed and evolved — a fresh bread might be baked. To you personally, do I sound the same as last December (you were a ghost reader then)??
“I am a huge backer of my instincts about people and my instinct says almost everyone here on LwL is a good egg 🐣”
If you boast here, I’ll show you how a rattan egg 🥚 I could become! — just babble some words repeatedly or fabricate stories of shocking or juicy kind, you have no way to reality-check my words anyway… Ha! 😇
At last, did I pure the last bucket of cold water on the Inn’s 🔥??
“Your dream/Unconscious seems to say that you want MFF in Limerence with you…😀”
This seems to be a good one to practise my new acceptance of duality on … I think I have a new working paradigm with three visuals!
🧲 / F side – does want it Reasons the same as for every limerent in LE ever
🧠 / T side – does not want it. Complicates three people’s lives massively if true, easier if it is not
🤝 / Friendship side – mainly does not want it (knows the friendship was good before limerence). But it has doubts – something like ‘if she had no attraction to me, would she continue to invest as much in me?’.
I can usually stare those doubts in the face and shut them up. Snow, the doubt is simply my insecurity talking. I know that the doubt won’t resonate with your much previously-discussed COO understanding of friendships, and it doesn’t even resonate with mine. Please see its expression merely as a primitive part of my brain talking, that I can quieten fairly easily these days.
LaR,
“This seems to be a good one to practise my new acceptance of duality on …”
Everyone has a set of dualities and doubts to work and live with, and often it makes one (at least you and me) indecisive a sometimes (I wrote a poem about it back in 2021.), regardless quantity or quality of one’s insecurity. No one, NO ONE, is 100% secure, simply because there is no perfect human being, no perfect parent, no perfect child, no one SET of agreed upon measuring sticks!
In nature by Zeus, not just farmers, but men or women all want that ploughing tractor running, don’t we? Otherwise, there would be no sight of the hatted corns or delicious cornflakes in our bowls, right? 😀
But on one can or want to eat cornflakes all the time… We need milk from a-moo-singing…
Meditation on a pink mountain ridge (except)
The mortal world dashes its dazzling dust,
cringed fears,
sighing tears,
along the invisible virus
into the renewed, mindful, and VPC-free valley,
scatters over 250 fuzzy dualities in the daily mist,
sets its meditator on a pink mountain ridge
to ponder: to be or not to be? —
to climb to the eudemonic peak or
tiptoe down the hedonic hills?
Life is a dream,
a dream within another dream,
on a layer inside another layer,
sweet and bitter, 250 paradoxical flavors…
black and white, 250 contrasting hues…
terrifies and glorifies, 250 double-bladed swords…
How possibly to accept and appreciate life
in its ever fickle shapes
even for a moment?
But,
one mindful moment makes a serene eternity!
It is attainable to merge Selfs
with a moment — an eternity….
The nature’s ecstatic blooming exhales
only its innate desire, not the desired…
How to keep the desire shimmering
from dawn to dusk, and
swing its torso under “the midnight bell, that
goes ting, ting, ting”?
To be, is to be —
vigorous flows of Qi and blood,
individual sensuous passions,
cultivated universal love….
rolling up Sisyphus’ stone
on the humanity pyramid
with a faith to thrive,
to unwaveringly shine….
July 14, 2021
Mila,
I like the meaning of “bang” or “bange” much better. “Ghastly” sounds negative and emotionally “violent”, against the sentimentality of longing the speaker is expressing in the poem. Thanks.
I could not translate my own published poem to Granny, because I could not capture the same sentiment in COO tongue. As I discussed with LaR, my mind/emotions automatically get to two different domains, depending on which language I was using at the time — we are so culturally conditioned through words.
“I like the meaning of “bang” or “bange” much better.”
Will no one else touch this? Where is frederico when you need him??
Sorry, I will try to comment on the more serious topics. I’m in enough trouble already – what with the inn fire and everything!
Sweet Trifles,
Are you in stress feeling “frightened”, “uneasy” or “scared” or “anxious” portrayed in Rilke’s original poem? Are you in longing for something or someone?
May I ask if the “trouble” you’re in is related to your reality, or only to the “fire in the inn”?
I can’t and won’t make any assumptions. But if it’s related to my big mouth or our misunderstanding, please feel free to express your frustration there. If you don’t want to hear anything from me, then just spill it — you can yell at me like I did to you once…. As you know I can take anything from any kinds of ghost, “saints 🎅 or trolls🧌 “….
I’m quite tied up presently with tutoring, finals, Mom’s and my own dentists…. so can’t have enough focused time on some complex issues I wish I could say easily to you and others…. I don’t know how to fix LaR kind of vanilla-butter 🍹
Hanging there, Sweet Trifles (I’ll try to make this dessert during the break starting next Friday).
When you waiting for Frederico, perhaps you want to try some of these ? (I like narrators voice) there must be one or two fitting your ears?
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmxjwG0x-lOgKVwUFQ6Rlx7enK48jws2W&si=bmfIyFc_EamxN0I2 – Stoicism in Personal Development and Relationships
Feel Better, Trifles
@Trifles: I caught where your mind was going. 😉
@Trifles.
“Will no one else touch this? Where is frederico when you need him??
Sorry, I will try to comment on the more serious topics. I’m in enough trouble already – what with the inn fire and everything!”
Aw. bless you, Trifles. 🤣
As a native English speaker, like Serial Limerent, I too instantly understood your bon mot, and the spirit in which it was delivered.
Your childlike enjoyment in puns is charming. Your ability to find a deliciously naughty English pun in a sombre German word, whilst presumably being neither English nor German, (I’ve always thought of you as a proud daughter of Napoleon), is even more charming.
Enchante, Mademoiselle. Enchante. 😜
@Serial Limerent.
I think we might be genetically related. I too “get that feeling (of being in love)” from eating chocolate. Also, I knew someone was inevitably going to make that comment in the “On the Scientific Evidence for Limerence” blog and I knew that someone was very likely to be you…
You seem very familiar to me, although I don’t know you from a bar of soap. I feel like I’ve met your bright, sparky, spunky, quirky, quiet-yet-unapologetic personality before in a million other women. You may hail from North America, but in Australia you’d fit right in! 😆
Trifles,
even me , I got it;) that’s why I added the „e“…or doesn’t that help?
Well well.
I miss frederico too!
Trifles,
You’ve just shown me a perfect example of “Ignorance is bless”! 😆
Saying “F*..K*” can certainly touch some native English speakers’ nerves, but its sound won’t ever scratch a 🪶 of 🐦🔥.
Now, understanding your pun, I’d change the original verb in my post to, “I LOVE the meaning of….”; otherwise, how could 🐦🔥 be considered as a hardcore limerent ❓ 😋
@Sammy
Oh what nice things to say to me! 🙂 Yeah, people see me as quiet and innocent, then I’ll come up with some zinger that shocks them all. I guess growing up on British humor will do that to you. 😉
Here’s one I’m just slipping on to the inn jukebox for all you punsters, with a bonus decent helping of limerent undertones in its lyrics:
Blur – Bang (1991):
https://youtu.be/1NTPbPYM-FQ?si=7JOGmKktaDU1NOeE
@LAR
Ooh, the kind of music to take me back to college days. 🙂
@Lim-a-rant.
“Here’s one I’m just slipping on to the inn jukebox for all you punsters, with a bonus decent helping of limerent undertones in its lyrics …”
Not to upstage you or anything, but the other day I accidentally overheard the lyrics to Cher’s 1989 hit “Just Like Jesse James” and I was immediately taken aback by the directness of the lyrics. For example, the second verse ends with the line: “Come on, baby, show me what that loaded gun is for.”
It is often said that female singers cannot do justice to rock music. Madonna, for example, has never had a convincing hit in the rock genre. Whitney Houston almost got there with 1993’s “Queen of the Night” from the Bodyguard soundtrack. Self-proclaimed elusive chanteuse Mariah Carey did get there with her 2002 cover of 1981 Def Leppard classic “Bringin’ on the Heartbreak”. However, Carey did have the support of magnificent guitarist Dave Navarro. 🙂
Some people might classify “Just Like Jesse James” as a Country Western song, because the storyline is definitely Country Western. However, the usually sultry Cher delivers it with a vocal edginess seldom seen in female entertainers that in my opinion pushes it firmly into the rock genre. I’m not a prude by any means. However, in my opinion, this cleverly crafted song retains its power to shock even in 2024 – more than thirty years after its release date.
Even to my untrained ear, the song combines the emotional intensity of Carrie Underwood’s 2015 hit “Church Bells” (a song about a woman surviving domestic violence) and the raunchiness of Michael Jackson’s 1991 track “Give in to Me” (an anthem of male desire).
Incidentally, curious about what a truly beautiful man looks like?
Dave Navarro fits the bill, in my opinion. Want to know how a man can cover himself in tattoos and still look like an angel? Again, I’d direct that question at the exquisite and incredibly talented Navarro. Navarro’s sometimes bandmate Anthony Kiedis is another example of a disturbingly beautiful man. If pop music is a pantheon of attractive women, rock music is a pantheon of gorgeous men.
Want to know how I know so much about rock music even though I don’t usually listen to it? My LO’s favourite band was super-popular 90s funk outfit, the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Thanks to my LO, I know about the existence of this extremely influential band.
Just out of sheer curiosity, I tried to listen to some RHCP material once, but felt embarrassed by the suggestive lyric “aromatic is the flower” from 1991 track “Blood Sex Sugar Magik”. (Probably the least suggestive line in the entire song, if I’m being perfectly honest. If I were a responsible Christian parent, like my LO’s parents presumably were, I’d never let my teenage son listen to RHCP. But, then again, I came from an abnormally strict family). 🙄🤣🤣🤣
@Serial,
Did Blur break big on your side of the pond? Thinking of the colourful London of the 90s that they portrayed through songs has my nostalgia levels running hot.
@Sammy
The most blatant song ever must be ‘Relax’ by Frankie Goes to Hollywood. That’s not even innuendo, it is just a description of sex in a song!
@Patrons of the Inn
We clearly now need to add a cocktail called ‘The Bang’ if anyone wants to suggest the recipe (No blowtorch involved please).
And: “It is often said that female singers cannot do justice to rock music.” (Sammy). I feel like we need a jukebox theme night with some good examples of female rock. Any suggestions?
LaR, that’s a new one (song) for me, thanks!
Actually this one has been spinning around in my head since reading the line yesterday. Apologies in advance for the ear worm!
Ricky Martin – She Bangs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ihtX86JzmA
Some earnest Latin energy, perhaps limerence.
LaR, to balance out, and apologize for, Ricky Martin – I would love to see the cocktail mixed from these two! – and to add to your “women in rock” playlist… Here is an essential one that is so raw and sounds like it was born from pain.
Hole – Violet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_rfGBwamc
“Go on take everything, take everything, I want you to!” (Insert Ricky smiling and dancing) “She bangs, she bangs!” (Insert Courtney screaming) “Go on take everything, take everything…”
Hmm. (Sorry, it’s all part of the product development process. I will stop now.)
Wow wow wow – you didn’t fancy the cocktail mixology role, but I think we might just have found us a DJ for the Amoors Inn?!
I am familiar with Ricky Martin but not so much Hole. Not a great statement to make for a bloke, probably. I will fill my ears with your musical recommendation on my commute later and see where it takes me.
Let’s hope other punters join in with this ‘great female rock’ playlist … I reckon LE, Adam, SL and MJ must all have something up their sleeves?
You want songs that don’t, heh, beat around the bush?
I Touch Myself — Divynls
https://youtu.be/wv-34w8kGPM?si=Qmpq2cJCZjaJNqnh
Afternoon Delight — Starland Vocal Band
https://youtu.be/wu1UXCdyNo0?si=I4WDMgekCumk8TlC
December 1963 (Oh What A Night) — Frankie Vallie & The Four Seasons
https://youtu.be/mTUhnIY3oRM?si=QaMKrgCaEyoe0-NE
And the later two songs being ones that I actually grew up listening to in a conservative Christian home.
Funny when Christina Amphlett sings a song on that subject, it’s a hit. If a male singer did the same …. well we all know how Billy Squire got judged and that wasn’t even the subject of his song.
Ah Adam man I know the Divinyls one too and it is BLATANT!
You got two categories for the price of one there, as it is also an example of female (soft) rock
One more for the female rock genre – admittedly lighter rock than Trifles’ epic Hole contribution…
Sleeper – Sale of the Century:
https://youtu.be/rJEyKr7J0Wc?si=76_-TtJGrixWtFIG
Actually, I might transfer my limerence to Louise from Sleeper 😂
Lim-A-Rant
I can tell you with a 110% confidence I transfer to Terri Clark. For the last month since I heard her for the first time I have been listening to her music so much my wife told me I’ve been singing her songs in my sleep lol But I think that this is a less damaging obsession than limerence ….. well unless I get to see her in concert 🙂
Terri Clark — Easy On The Eyes
https://youtu.be/RAbrk3OISyo?si=pkAgJ0DGNRfAkBuV
When I was in HS or college, I had a copy of Led Zeppelin II. One of the tracks on it is “The Lemon Song.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYdRnT0lg5k
One day, I was listening to it in my room. Robert Plant hit:
“Squeeze me baby, ’til the juice runs down my leg
Squeeze me baby, ’til the juice runs down my leg
The way you squeeze my lemon, ah
I’m gonna fall right out of bed
Bed, bed, bed, yeah”
My father came into my room and told me that my grandmother was bouncing off the walls and if I wanted to listen to it, I needed to use the headphones.
Another interesting one is The Beach Boys, “Don’t Worry, Baby” (1964). It may be my favorite Beach Boys song along with “Wouldn’t It Be Nice.”
“Oh, what she does to me
When she makes love to me”
Wiki said the song was remarkable for the time since it portrayed the woman as the sexual initiator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvpxqvM7ML0
Adam,
I hate “Afternoon Delight.” It’s one of the rare songs that makes me want to empty my 12ga into the radio.
Good gracious! What my ESL, pun-lessly quoting of Rilke’s longing “Bang” has let us all banging here in Amoor Inn! 🛖
I vote for Ricky Martin’s “She Bangs!” I’m a fan of Latin music and would be charged to rock in such a banging tones until the surreal, pink dawn….
L.E., I’m also a fan of Wouldn’t it Be Nice. It’s so wonderfully ironic to sing along to the earnest lyrics now: “Wouldn’t it be nice if we were older, then we wouldn’t have to wait so long…”
And quite a contrast there with the Beach Boys’ “risqué lyrics” in Don’t Worry Baby and some of the other songs linked!
Women in rock: Tina Turner was pretty rock’n’roll in her time, especially with her attitude.
Tina Turner – Better be good to me
https://youtu.be/qyU7BbQSm98?
LaR, what is it with the men of LwL and redheads? 😂 I think we are at 3/6 or something…
Trifles,
Redheads are kryponite.
@LAR
Yep, I remember “Girls and Boys” hitting it big. I’d probably remember more of the songs if I heard them; alternative and grunge metal was my favorite music in the 90s.
OMG you guys should hear some goth/industrial lyrics, lol! And Tool has some…interesting lyrics as well….
Let’s keep the inn rocking (banging) til dawn!
Trifles – if that was a smart attempt to guess something then ✅️
Sammy
“Dave Navarro fits the bill, in my opinion. Want to know how a man can cover himself in tattoos and still look like an angel? Again, I’d direct that question at the exquisite and incredibly talented Navarro.”
He hardly looks like an angel — and who would want him to?– but he is really hot. 😀
“Navarro’s sometimes bandmate Anthony Kiedis is another example of a disturbingly beautiful man. ”
You’ve lost your cred on this one. 😀 No. Just no.
LaR, that guess didn’t even require a lot of smarts. 😉 You said you were ready to transfer your limerence, and the woman is clearly a redhead. Come to think of it, so is Sophie… I didn’t even pay attention before!
Before I came on LwL I didn’t know redheads were a “thing” among men. (Hey, I’ve learned something new!) I guess I’ve only talked to the ones who prefer blondes! 😜
On the subject of redheads; my wife is, LO is (though she dyed it black somehow I knew?), Gillian Anderson is (oh my), this girl I had a crush on in middle school was a redhead ….. hmm there seems to be a pattern emerging here …..
Adam,
What is it about them, do you think??!
Trifles,
Sophie was coincidental because we were talking about the limerent dance and it just fitted. It hasn’t been a pattern for me all my life – but more in the LOs than the SOs, per the different types who have tended to be those two for me, as discussed before. Limerent Emeritus was spot on in what he said!
Lim-a-Rant
Not sure why I have a proclivity for red-haired women. But almost every woman I have dated, crushed on, attracted to or caught my eye were all redheads. I even dated this black gal shortly that dyed her hair red. God that was hot. The contrast of her hair color with her skin color drove me wild.
Are tomgirls mostly redheads? Or redheads mostly tomgirls? Cause just about every gal I have been with, married, dated, found attractive has been a tomgirl. I love the very feminine female fashion but always fall for the tomgirl personality. It’s a conundrum between my eyes and my mind.
Adam,
Are you sure you still want to take me for a drink🥃 in Amoor Inn? (The barmen is an enabler of all sorts 🙄)
In one way, I have neither red nor blonde hair or Western bony facial features, and very short. On the other hand, I’m tomgirl with a feminine look/air — a🐦🔥(my favorite color is rosy/burgundy).
Do you think you can keep your head leveled and take me back home safely after our drinks? 🍷🍹
Yes I could, of course, get you home safely Snow ….. if we both take a cab. There’s is a very small margin for me from sober to can’t drive safely. But a very wide margin between can’t drive safely and I’ve had enough. I handle my alcohol a little too well. If I were an X-Men my mutant power would be alcohol metabolization. :-/
“On the other hand, I’m tomgirl with a feminine look/air”
Oh dear. Maybe better take Momma with me. So she can kick me in the shin when I start misbehavin’. One of the reason I don’t go out and drink since Momma went sober in 2019 is because I can get a bit ….. bold with other women when I drink. So I drink at home and flirt with her. But on the plus side for the waitress/barmaid she gets a nice tip errr uh …… monetary compensation for services rendered out of me.
Adam and Snow,
“Make yourselves comfortable. What can I pour you fine people?”
Adam,
Really sorry to interrupt but a quick response from my side of the counter:
“I love the very feminine female fashion but always fall for the tomgirl personality.”
I am right with you here. I can fall for all different types. But the type of character you describe above, I’d say the most attractive element is something like ‘sass’. I only count 4 women in my life as LOs rather than crushes or relationships – and they have all been hugely that type.
We had a new cat come up to eat on the porch last night for the first time. I went out on the porch this morning and he/she was sitting in the chair looking at me like “finally”. I am now feeding 4 cats including our own and possibly a skunk that I’ve seen often. He came up on the porch one night when I didn’t have my glasses on and I got cornered into the other side of the porch trying not to get sprayed. He finally sauntered off. Time to upgrade to the 25lb of cat food.
Momma said “are you an old cat lady trapped in a man’s body?” 🙂
Cats know when somebody loves them.
Consider it a compliment.
Adam, this is a purrfect short story. X
@Imho.
“… purrfect short story.”
I see Trifles is not the only punster in the building. 🤣😉
Last night, the dream of COO Red Fear —
Back in COO at a dimmed bar/cafe, one HS gf serving behind the counter suddenly said, “WE know you’re secretly talking in LwL… it’s not OK.” I asked, “Why?” “Because you’re not telling your real name, you’re lying.”
I got upset but could not argue back. I started feeling very uncomfortable, not sure what the Party (I was never a member) would do to me.
Soon after left the bar, I met another HG gf (we three were close, saw them in COO trip back in June) on a campus path. She also said, “Hey Snow, we all know you’re in LwL.” I argued back, “but I did not say anything wrong. I don’t want to give my real name.” She said, “Well, it’s not allowed…”. Then my heart began sinking as I continued walking, knowing clearly if THEY (the system) knows about it (wondered how they found out) , it did not matter whatever I thought; they DECIDE what is right or wrong…
Feeling the fear was rising (had many dreams like this during k-12), I woke up with deep sadness and bad depression, physically felt creeping upon me and for a few minutes, I envisioned everything in the world was gray and meaningless, with all my accumulated stupid mistakes and heartbreaking failures zoomed through my 👁️🗨️ …
(When I was in COO back in June, I did check the local wifi system, and I could read and respond LwL posts. 60% of www are still blocked by the Great Fire Wall, including major newspapers in the West, major social medias, and many educational organizations, such as Wikipedia. )
Luckily I had to teach today… When going through the morning routines, I continued cooking that mental dish mentioned earlier (for Amoor Inn), and sorted out one or two more complex ingredients, which quickly lifted up my spirit. Before I put on my “cocktail” skirt, the very dark cloud hovering over my entire being — the worst but shortest (in recent days), was gone…
Mila, like I said, I’d do/give something when that benefits myself first— very selfish….
As if the reality was not LE-hurtful enough, my dream again made sad interaction (mostly dismissive/ignoring) between ET and me, perhaps against my tendency or attempt of keeping only positive memories….
LaR, you see if one wishfully/willfully ignores the other side of the coin (because it hurts), the Unconscious would make one to see and experience it in your dreams! Of course, my T brains knows it didn’t happen in my waking hours, but it did so “realistically” in my slumber — the effect is same. ☹️ I am experiencing what ABCD does in his waking hours….
No worries. I mediated for a few minutes and reduced the pain.
Snow,
If I read you right, you’re saying because you hold the positives about ET in your conscious, the negatives (feeling ignored, pain of NC) are coming out in dreams. Is that right?
I – like you – don’t think the T brain can ever hope to totally moderate the F brain – i.e. the effect above can’t be “disappeared” completely by willpower.
But it got me thinking – is there a way you can try and give space for the positive and negative memories of him ‘in the right measure’ in waking hours, if you don’t want the cold cycles to be through dreams? Like mixing the cocktails, it can take time to establish the right recipe. This suggested cocktail of mine *wouldn’t* involve eliminating all the warm bits.
You mentioned ABCD’s self-admitted battle with hot and cold cycles. The way I have reduced those extremes is to experience interaction with MFF more as a drip feed, that neither feels too hot (mostly) nor too cold. I know you can’t mix up the same recipe but I wondered if there is any way it can apply to how you live with the recollections. It took me a long time and trial and error to work out the best level for the drip feed, and I still don’t have bits of it right.
LaR,
You read my interpretation of my own dream correctly: I want to let the past go and keep warming/healing memories; but my dreams kept “inventing” new, cold/chilling images and narratives, which certainly reduced amount of good memories and reinforced dark ones, making me angry repeatedly (stupidly/helplessly upset at the matter that was/is clearly beyond my T mind control) and feeling deeply sad (about the forced NC). I think I’m in a Big denial of “death”, metaphorical death.
As you can see, my T brain could be very logical, alert, and willful in other matters and in interaction with others; but my N, F an P are even stronger (my whole neural system is wired intensely), making me stuck in my self-made LE loop, even after ET is gone for good and does not want to keep a friendship… ☹️ It really feels like I just had a 24/7 series, broken LE dreams for 7years….
“is there a way you can try and give space for the positive and negative memories of him ‘in the right measure’ in waking hours, if you don’t want the cold cycles to be through dreams?“
I was raised in a Red-or-Black COO, and have been trying really hard to bring in gray and other colors in my life and succeeded in many ways. But in LE case like mine, the negative/dark side of the coin has been constantly provoking my W11– sense/fear of abandonment, while the positive side truly came from my own Phantom (not ET) but wears his facial mask.
If ET were the Phantom all the way through, then black and white can be balanced out, I believe. But the reality had proven that the healing/warm bits were mostly my own imaginations. (To be very fair, he DID patiently and non-judgmentally listen, respond/comment face-to-face; without his (in)attentive ears online and offline— more “powerful” than all therapists added up together, my healing monologues could never have worked❗️)
ET was a doubtlessly crucial fuse/catalysis to wake up my internal creative, healing Muse, but then he “abandoned” me for another pet LO/Limer — stinging, idiotic jealousy pain I had never encountered before, again totally out of my control! However, when he casually offered himself to me, I was psychologically unable to take it…. How much idiotically confused could I be ⁉️ (how I had wished I could be a stereotyped French woman‼️…)
I did NOT even know what I really wanted or needed back then (now, I know)… But now, all is gone with wind, but my dreams keep hunting me 😠 My Stoic skills are weak or sporadic only in this arena, despite I have been practicing them constantly — never underestimate Aphrodite’s power! Athena could barely hold her own line…
Your MFF is still around, you can try and adjust quality and quantity of the drips in your cocktail mixture. I have no new feedings, especially nutritious ones either in reality or dreams. So if new negative bits are “freshly bestowed” in “nightmares”, I became lopsided, losing the mental/emotional homeostasis. Maybe I should consciously hold on dark memories and hate ET more, then perhaps my dreams would “create” some new sweet images or narratives against my wills — have to be authentic, not fabricated attempts.
For now, I’ll just be rambling and complaining to you/LwL. 😞
Hi Snow,
All understood. It is so difficult to know what to do in this situation. I wouldn’t think it’s good for your conscious – eventually – to either love or hate him too much, but to see both the good and bad sides. Keep working on those shades of grey (or maybe a nicer colour mixer like green or orange).
I’m sad to hear it stays painful. You have said in my case it is futile to try and manipulate the conscious much at all, but better to sit with it and let it pass. Hopefully the passage of time will do its thing.
The other thing I think is to keep nourishing your phantom in any other ways you can (maybe the upcoming break from the work schedule will help). This could slowly slowly reduce the amount that it wears ET’s mask.
I hope you have a good day 🙂
LaR,
Can this respectful attitude indicates that I have become my own parents truly? — I forgot yesterday was my father’s 7th anniversary of passing! 🤯 I just remembered it a few minutes away 😞
On the 6th anniversary last year, I did not cry for the first time since 12/11/2017; but forgetting the day (remembered a few days ago) is unacceptable 🧠 🔨…. perhaps I’ve been too busy parenting myself and giving unsolicited advices to remember this saddened day?
“The other thing I think is to keep nourishing your phantom in any other ways you can (maybe the upcoming break from the work schedule will help). This could slowly slowly reduce the amount that it wears ET’s mask”
F/P brain works very differently from T mind; rationality hinders the former’s function. I think (not sure) the extreme pain to sever the mask is that a part of ME — the creative/healing muse (❓) had grown into it (never felt this way in all my precious “LEs”). Any attempt to separate hurts so badly — adding salt to Wounds of Loss and Abandonment — Me (not ET) abandoning a part of my self, which the superficial, shallow mask did/does not know or acknowledge….
Your empathetic advice helps me keep watching my quietly “tortured” (I avoid talking about it here) mental/emotional states without manipulate my conscious towards any directions. Thanks, Amoor Inn’s 🛖 Vanilla Enabler!
Typo: “disrespectful attitude indicates”
Evening Song
Willa Cather
1873 –1947
Dear love, what thing of all the things that be
Is ever worth one thought from you or me,
Save only Love,
Save only Love?
The days so short, the nights so quick to flee,
The world so wide, so deep and dark the sea,
So dark the sea;
So far the suns and every listless star,
Beyond their light—Ah! dear, who knows how far,
Who knows how far?
One thing of all dim things I know is true,
The heart within me knows, and tells it you,
And tells it you.
So blind is life, so long at last is sleep,
And none but Love to bid us laugh or weep,
And none but Love,
And none but Love.
******
So short is the day, so long the night,
“So blind is life”, so clear dreams,
“none but Love to bid us laugh or weep,
and none but Love ,
and none but Love.”
Snow,
Don’t be too hard on yourself about your Dad’s anniversary. On one hand your forgetting it perhaps shows you are healing, though I do understand why you feel upset with yourself.
“I think (not sure) the extreme pain to sever the mask is that a part of ME — the creative/healing muse (❓) had grown into it.”
If you feel it is important for me to understand this point, please explain it more, or using different/extended words. *what* is growing into *what* here? This might just be a small English language based point meaning I can’t understand. And/or, I have found that the ‘phantom’ that you convey to be quite a complex concept to understand. Back in my ghost reader days, I didn’t understand it at all. Since talking to you, I would say I understand 80% of what you mean by the ‘phantom’ stuff (aside – do you sometimes use ‘phoenix’ or the 🐦🔥 graphic to mean much the same?). But I wonder if hidden in the 20% is something that’s important.
Of course, it is only important if you want me to understand and comment on the point. If you just want a non judging ‘ear’ on this point, then my understanding the forensic detail becomes far less important.
Again, and in agreement with your previous message, I get a sense that the changes or consistencies in the (de)masking, and how you come to feel about and remember ET, can only happen at their own pace and are not something you can force. (Sorry about the long sentence! We are discussing complex ideas and complex sentences tend to result. Especially as I am a fan of precision in my writing and speech).
—
I agree with basically all you said about online friendships in the long other message. For sure, to know ‘LaR’ is not to know the person behind him. But significant chunks of the real person’s genuine character, from the serious side of me to the joker farmer and barman, do come across. Point very well taken that you have no way to fact check that.
“LaR immediately spoke up for your TO, either from his would-be preference if he were in TO’s shoe or from his caring for your stress”
Trying to let the two of you continue and finish that conversation without me. But do want to clarify this one (directly about me) point. It wasn’t because it would be my preferred response, or how I’d act if in those circumstances. Yes, there was care involved. More than that it was because I felt I understood why he might feel and act as he did in that situation. It is a subtle difference, but that’s not ‘speaking up’. ‘Speaking up’ implies I support it. I didn’t want to support, but rather wanted to explain it (as I viewed it).
If I want to enable anything, it is the other person to make their own decisions and actions, as the best judge of what’s right for them. My opinions here are no more or less valid than those of you or any other 👻. When I offer my views they go into a basket with those of others. It is then up to the person I give them to, to take or leave them as they see fit.
Snow, I couldn’t find your latest comment anymore so I will also reply here.
That wasn’t cold water for me. You’ve got the facts right, at least close enough for our purposes here. And it would be very nice if TO would act according to the steps you list, but unfortunately I can’t control that… I just have to choose whether how he does act is acceptable by my standards. We all have different standards for friendship as we’ve seen here, and I don’t think I would fulfill everyone’s standards.
I know our level of contact is “a little” exaggerated. It’s no longer about him *directly* needing support in his crisis, only a small part of our communication is about that now. It’s just everyday stuff. Me accusing him of using me for validation was my cynical side poking through, and the vexation passed. I know he is “acting in good faith”. (And yes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions… For you, this might be the key point!) But the amount of contact is over the top and frankly I thought our contact would have waned by now. It hasn’t, so I’ve decided to hang in there for awhile and see if either of us comes to our own conclusions about the future.
LaR, don’t kill me, but I also thought that you understanding TO might have come partly from how you would like things to go in your own LE. You would not want your LO to cut or restrict contact with you.
Trifles,
I don’t think I gave you any advice in my marathon message about what you should do in your TE, but merely explanations about my first “cocktail” served to you, ordered by LaR.
As repeatedly said prior to this long one, I support whatever you wish to give TO or however you want to connect with him as a good friend, as long aas you do not feel pain/stress from not receiving something (that could not be given) in return in unique your situation. To me “only expectations bring one suffering.” — not my original ideas, but my experiences repeated over 100 times.
I also tried to convey the idea that unawarely, subconsciously slipping from LE to another LE would “harm” us, making us stuck in LE cycles, one after another. Mila, you and I had discussed about this matter a couple of month ago, and at the time and still now I disagree and do not support the idea of transferring LE, especially if us or other side has a SO. Such a reliable, capable singletons are mostly taken or just rare (especially to my annoying P-laser eyes).
As I saw in this room and experienced in my own LEs, finding possible roots of our LE (even just related to our personality traits, without too many traumas) is the most fundamental step to tackle the addictive/obsessive side of Limerence “beast”, who also has its creative and exhilarating power that make our heart dance.
The strange or disconnected feeling for online “friends” upon meeting them in person is more about my oddity, not applicable to many others. My comfortable and substantial connection with men or women need to be built/based on my physical and intellectual knowledge of them, which requires interactions with them in person and in words, in high and low, and all colored shades, simultaneously.
So as long as you feel comfortable, clear headed, and get substantial emotional/mental supports from you TO, then carry on. I just did not like to see you, who always serves sweet smoothies to others, feeling upset or pain in your TE.
Hi Snow,
„Mila, you and I had discussed about this matter a couple of month ago, and at the time and still now I disagree and do not support the idea of transferring LE, especially if us or other side has a SO.“
Snow, while I did transfer two times, I wouldn’t recommend it, maybe you are referring to Lovisa.
It saved me at that time from a bad LE, but only to get into another mess, just with a more decent person.
I don’t support this idea, I just couldn’t help myself at that time, or better, I recognized the danger too late.
Mila,
My LEs were transferred before, without my knowing what LE is, Glimmer just hit, then the rest is the history.
Yes, my post was referring to Lovisa’s idea.
Trifles 🥖,
That has boggled my brain a little. It is because I need to twist my logic to figure it out – you have explained the TE to us more from the perspective of you as ‘limerent’ (though I know you don’t call it limerence). But I think in your analysis of why I might have tried to understand TO, we’d need to place him as more like the limerent and you as the LO?
Can I check I understood right?
I said at the time that I felt a difference between “don’t want to step over boundaries and “not willing to step over small boundaries because of the challenge that presents with then possibly stepping over big boundaries”. And that that may explain TO’s stance. To give an example – I have never once been in MFF’s home, despite invites to. That squarely does not equal me not wanting to or wishing I could accept such an invite.
The second part seems to be that you wonder if I have tried to rationalise for
TO, based on a thought process a bit like this: “if I tell Trifles to cut him off, and she listens, he would then feel like I’d feel if my LO cut me off. Nobody deserves to feel like that!”
I am exemplifying- that’s (*nobody* deserves …) not my real view (even if I think I don’t deserve it!) – it depends entirely on the two people involved, what they are putting o
into the relationship, and what they want out.
I did not think about it in that way at the time of my messages (I sent a later one saying if I took your perspective, his not meeting you could seem wrong, and I understood why). Maybe subconsciously that was in the mix somewhere, though.
Above all, I said what I did because I felt a male perspective on what the man in the situation might be thinking, might help you – along with others’ replies – have more holistic views. And from those views, that you could make the decision that’s best *for you*. I could tell from your responses that you understood it like that – as it was intended – so I know all is well without us needing to go over it again!
If your interpretation was different, please tell me, as I’d be interested.
LaR,
“…we’d need to place him as more like the limerent and you as the LO?”
Correct. I think we’ve discussed that division of roles before. For this exercise, you can think of it more as a relationship of “equals”, rather than LO and limerent, just have the males play male characters and females female characters.
My claim was based perhaps on more than one comment of yours rather than just one. I’ve noticed that you often seem to understand my situation with TO. I would like to think that it’s because it sounds like I have it so well under control and the effect is net-positive, like you’ve said. But my suspicious side says that you want to understand it so well, because it reminds you of your situation and how you have it under control and how you would like it to continue. I don’t mean I’m suspicious of your motives (it would be quite unconscious on your part) but suspicious for myself or others who are in my position, like “my behavior can’t be encouraged here!” I don’t know if I’m able to explain it very well…
But you can feel free to ignore my cynical side if it doesn’t ring true. This is just me making sure that we don’t enable each other (that I’ve alluded to before) and that we set a better example for others. 😉
Don’t worry, I understood that you were trusting me to make a decision that’s right for me. Maybe that should be enough, no need to play through these mind-bending guessing scenarios, worrying for silent readers. 😜
It feels like ages since I’ve commented on here, but it’s probably been only three weeks. Still, I’ve hardly checked this site, and I’m starting to feel like that is evidence of some level of recovery. My limerence has definitely subsided a lot, and I’m much more productive at work (although it is beginning to sink in how far behind I am at work, and that makes my anxiety worse even as I recover from depression and limerent obsession).
The five year anniversary of the night when I met LO #1 recently passed. I still feel like my life will never be the same after meeting that friendly stranger in a bar that fateful night. Meeting her awakened me from my slumber and made me realize just how dissatisfied I was in my marriage, yet I still struggle with trying to find meaning in all of it. Since then, I have moved on to two new LOs. The limerence is long gone for LO #1, but I still think about her quite a bit. By now, I don’t think I would even go on a date with her if my marriage ended. I really don’t think she would be a fit for me, and I believe she was trying to be something she’s not the night I met her. She wasn’t even into me, but having her chat us up and be so into my brother in-law made me front and centre in a courtship ritual, and I began to realize how much I missed that. Since meeting her, I began to realize she isn’t the fun, extroverted, confident person she pretended to be that night. It wasn’t even about her, but rather about the possibility of something better. For the first time, I truly began to realize how bad my marriage was and how I wanted out of it.
I experienced transference to LO #2 a couple of years later. She has become a close friend, but she kind of goes in and out of my life. At this point, we’re again pretty close, but I expect her to drop me again to some extent when she finds another female friend to replace me. I guess it’s true: I’m c**k blocking her, and she would like to meet someone. By now, I’m not even jealous, and I’ve started pointing out guys to her I know would be her type.
I’m recovering from limerence for LO #2. Low contact and some reactions she had on our group chats have devalued her in my eyes to some extent. In particular, I had arranged a night out to see a band I knew she’d love, but someone else shit all over my plans and he got pissy about us not doing what he wanted to do. She was the only person who gave his comments a like/thumbs-up. That, me not seeing her for over two months and her refusal to accept my friend request have helped me in my recovery. I still like her a lot, but she has come down off of her pedestal to a large extent. It feels good to dramatically reduce the limerent obsession, but I hate the loss of hope and much of the motivation to better myself. I feel more normal, but also much more “blah.” I’m kind of sad about that.
I meant to say I’m starting to recover from limerence for LO # 3 above.
VL, I just want to say that I think you write it out well how some people fall into limerence. You needed a glimmer to wake you up to what you weren’t getting from life and what you wanted to get. I guess the changes required aren’t fast and it’s frustrating that everything happens so slowly, but when you keep working on things, eventually you will get there – or at least somewhere! 😜
And you do have to keep working to make progress. I’ve also fallen prey to thinking that once my eyes have opened, everything will just fall into place. But unfortunately things don’t happen that way. Baby steps…
If it helps, I’m sure you’re not the only one feeling the “blahs” as LEs end. We all have to deal with them. (And I think that’s why people like you and I find new LOs or would-be LOs…)
Thanks @Trifles. The post-Limerent “blahs” are a thing, and so is the “What the hell was I thinking?” feeling. I still like LO # 3 a whole lot, but she is no longer the be-all and end-all. I’ve even started seeing some of her flaws. There are other fish in the sea, and the sense of urgency is gone. I still want out of my marriage, but that isn’t going to be quick or easy. I’ve put any thoughts of separation behind me until after the New Year. It feels like there’s a loss of hope, but I also seem to be doing much better at work these days. It may be too little too late though. I’m embarrassed to say limerence could have cost me my bonus and raise this year. That’s pretty pathetic, but reminding myself of that fact is making me more determined to work harder, catch up and change jobs and careers. I just wish I could get back the motivation for self-improvement in other areas and ending my marriage. Limerence is a great motivator for exercise and weight loss, but it didn’t work for other aspects of my life.
Hi all,
I shouldn’t write here anymore because it’s actually not about limerence any more but about the friendship that remains afterwards (or not).
But since some of you know my story and you were all a big help on the way, I want to update. Anyone who opts out is welcome, I’m gonna ramble and only people who followed my story will understand (and not even them, probably).
After my Ex-LOs anxious email I wrote an email where I explained what was going on inside myself (not limerence!just regarding his way of treating the friendship etc) and what friendship means to me and where I was hurt by his behavior. He wrote back after two days, thanks for the honest words and that he needs a few days to stomach my email.
Now, after more 5 days, he wrote another email, and I have to say, he just doesn’t get it, it’s amazing.
All three emails were actually basically only about him, how bad he feels, how my email came as a shock, how he pondered a lot about it (but didn’t refer to a single thing I wrote), how he is there for his friends and ready to put their benefit before his and how he is shocked that this readiness seems not to be apparent .
If it wouldn’t be sad, it would be funny, because in this last email (actually in all 3) he does exactly the opposite of what he claims- he talks only about himself and not about the stuff I told him about myself. He ends this email that’s solely about himself with the words that he hopes we can still manage somehow to stay friends.
I honestly have to give up here, I guess. I mean, what is the use in trying to explain something to him again that he just cannot grasp.
I‘m not sure what to do now. I mean it’s so ridiculous that I’m very tempted to point it out to him. But what for? Education? That would mean I still have hope that he will get it. But should I really have hope? No. My email was clear, it was honest and I also said some very nice things about him. If he responds in this way to it, that means clearly he is very limited, and that he refuses to take any responsibility or see what I mean.
I gave up on him ever being the person I wish he would be. I didn’t get through to him, apparently.
And really, this doesn’t have anything to do with my limerence anymore. I see clearly now, and I see how he behaves and behaved. My other friend whom I spoke to about it knew exactly what I was talking about, I‘m not alone in my perception.
But how to respond now?
I‘m very tempted to stay honest and say look, please read your emails again, you talk only about yourself and not one word about my concerns or person ,that’s exactly what I was talking about ,and that I understand now that we are too different to sort this out, but that I still like him and we are still friends?
Or should I just give up completely and write a short reassuring email that we are still friends and all good and that’s it?
I‘m really not sure what to do. I mean, best would be the latter, because we won’t ever come to an understanding here, so why the waste of energy and stirring things up further.
But I’m not sure if I can pull it through, and not show noticeable distance again that would disturb him and ruin the friendship completely anyway- if it would be more fair and less condescending to tell him that I still feel we are too different and that friendship is possible but only on a certain level? Also better for me myself as a sense of closure and having been honest?
But then again, I’m afraid that this will hit home wrongly and he will be hurt again without understanding, that he will just not grasp any of it and it will be useless prolonging.
While I write, I get clearer in my head (you witness my actual thought process😅). What counts now is what is best for me, not him.
What do I need to feel good and also to be able to meet him next time without aggression and with the feeling of closure?
I‘m not 100% sure but at the moment I feel I have to stay honest , point out shortly what kind of response he gave without accusing, state that we are too different but that I still like him and that we are still friends. It won’t help anything in matters of this friendship and it will make him feel criticized again, but I might be past caring how it is for him.
On the other side, can I live with him being angry and ending the friendship completely? Maybe I can? Or can I get to the point past caring where I can leave out even this stage and just leave it be, write that short email and just be nice and nothing more at future meetings?
I have to think about it a bit.
The thing is, if I‘m going to send a short reassuring mail without any references to anything, I should do it soon. Otherwise, if I wait a week (like him), it‘s very clear that it’s kind of condescending and I’ve decided to spare the energy for this friendship.
For the other way of responding honestly, I would take time.
Well, I‘ll sleep on it and reread tomorrow.
Thanks for listening! Somehow it helps me a lot to write it down in another language that is more crisp and to the point.
Hi Mila. Thanks for sharing.
I can understand how frustrating it might feel, with you and LO not being on the same page.
Going back to my LE, there were plenty of times when LO did not behave according to my expectations, like I would hope she would greet while walking past me, and similar such stuff. I used to wonder about this and analyse it, and get disturbed for days.
My situation is pretty different from yours, as in my LO and I were not friends prior to LE. So, now that the LE is winding up (fingers crossed and hoping), it would be fine if we do not interact as much as we used to during LE.
For you, the situation is different, as you were friends prior to LE.
From what you have described, it does sound like you cannot get through to him.
I think your next step is a bit tricky, with tradeoffs involved. However, I am sure you will make the correct decision. All the best to you!
Hi ABCD,
Thank you too for thinking of me!
I will make some decision and that will be the correct one, or better said, there is probably no right or wrong.
You sound very good, I’m sure you can manage the next interaction better!
Morning Mila,
I guess that you already know what you will do by now as you do not like to let these things fester.
Taking a step back, it is great that you know its definitely over for limerence – Done and Dusted.
Also, you are in a professional team (from time to time) with this man so you can thinking coldly (if you like) about protecting that work relationship. He doesn’t sound like the type of guy to react badly out of spite (in response to a letter) but he might not be able to understand and he might feel angry. Protect yourself against that.
Last point I would make is that some people who are wired a little differently have a very hard time putting a name on an emotion or speaking about this eloquently or even speaking at all. This is true of my LO and I give him acres of latitude because of it. I also hardly see him s it is easy for me to default towards forgiveness for things that are basic expectations of other work friends (a wide definition here!) in my orbit.
Maybe fudge it? I dunno, I just don’t want you to have regrets. But only you know the direction of regrets for you – whether those are likely to arise by acting or not acting or due to full honesty or fudging it. Personally, I am cautious about full honesty because I feel as though I might change my mind about that later. I also don’t want to hurt someone because I happen to be having a bad few weeks with them, but then later these things might pass?
This is meant as a sounding-board only.
Good luck! Hope you are having a nice time otherwise…
hitting the mulled wine :D?
Hi Bewitched,
Thanks for the always useful thoughts!
I haven’t had much time to think about it further, but I lean towards leaving out the honest response at the moment and just let it all go. I‘m not sure what „fudging it“ means, I just get sugar cravings from the word😂?
„ I dunno, I just don’t want you to have regrets. But only you know the direction of regrets for you – whether those are likely to arise by acting or not acting or due to full honesty or fudging it“
That’s exactly what I try to find out- am I able to let it all go fullheartedly without any grudge or distancing, or do I need to point my perception of his interactions out once more, or would it be enough to just say „we won’t see eye to eye here but let’s just leave it that“ ?
Still not sure.
Thank you very much!
By the way, I’m about to hit the mulled wine tonight once again and next week in four evenings out of seven😱Christmas time is exhausting. But it also means I’ve got lovely friends and colleagues who like to be in the Christmas spirit with me.
„ Last point I would make is that some people who are wired a little differently have a very hard time putting a name on an emotion or speaking about this eloquently or even speaking at all. This is true of my LO and I give him acres of latitude because of it.“
I feel as if I’ve given him acres of latitude (great expression) whole of the last year and now I’m spent. But I‘m also kind of done with it, he‘s just the way he is and won’t ever change.
Still mulling it over (is that related to mulled wine?so it’s actually helpful what I’m doing tonight)
Mila
I have never had mulled wine. Kind of curious to try. Like I would mimosa. I am sure in the age of the internet I could figure out a recipe for mulled wine. But would rather try it from someone that knows how to mix it properly. That is the key to any cocktail; expertise.
But then for me there was no better way to forget LO in the midst of it all than some vodka and immersing myself in a video game. Distractions work great for that.
Well Adam,
here you can also simply buy mulled wine in the supermarket. Of course it tastes better self-made, and me, I drink it with friends on the Christmas market, it only tastes when you are standing in the cold with Christmas lights around. Very often it’s too much sugar and too low quality red wine. There are spiced-up versions with spirits, too.
Adam,
Everything you need to know about mulled wine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr-2tz-WXQw#ddg-play
Mila,
“On the other side, can I live with him being angry and ending the friendship completely?”
From all you’ve told us over time I’d say there is almost 0% chance he’d make a decision to end the friendship. So I reckon this is moot. Think about the effort you said it will have taken for him to reach out with the original (albeit limited in his own way) email.
More important I would say is to priotitise your own needs in the response, so that the friendship – at whatever more distant level it ends up – has some chance of succeeding from your side. Without your side being Ok, it can’t succeed anyway. With your side Ok, it has a chance depending on if he can follow.
He obviously values this friendship very much based on all you have told us.
Good luck!
„ From all you’ve told us over time I’d say there is almost 0% chance he’d make a decision to end the friendship“
You got him completely right here. He wouldn’t end it, 1. because I am very important for him, (I dare say even more important than he is to me in the end),2. because he is generally simply very bad at making any decisions .
„ Without your side being Ok, it can’t succeed anyway. “
Actually, the whole friendship was always run by me anyway, so to say. So I can do what I want, I guess. Just have to find out what I need.
Thank you too for wise words!
Mila,
I feel your concerns/pain since last night I saw your post. My instant and intuitive reaction is: why this friendship seems to have been agitating you so much (I followed your case since last fall). Back then, it was limerence as you defined it, but now, it’s a long-distance friendship; yet this texting thing, the style and content, still vex you so much….
I just don’t get it, even as an Eastern obsessive advocate to stress essence of a true friendship. (I “insulted” LaR, as you named, for this). Whether he’s non-limerent or not, a friendship does not, in my eyes, take this much of a person’s mental space.
I agree with LaR on this: even if you draw back and stay distance, he is NOT going to end your friendship of decade. By what you revealed here, he will NOT. But he will probably NEVER get what’s going on in your mind and why? Can you live with that possibility in peace??
Snow,
“Whether he’s non-limerent or not, a friendship does not, in my eyes, take this much of a person’s mental space.”
In my case it isn’t the friendship that takes the mental space (I feel as secure in that as I can, being me). It is the limerence, and the way the two mesh in my brain, that takes the space. I apprrciate that will be hard to unpack from what I write – it is hard to unpack ‘living it’, but I do feel I have made some strides in being able to, compared to the big tangled mess of a year back.
LaR,(Mila)
I always sensed ( no scientific data) that Mika’s MFF is different from yours… based how you two have described your interactions wi Tu them, respectively.
You admit that LE has got in the way of your friendship. But Mika claims/insists her LE is over, yet she sounds still vexed as much as before, IMO, due to my nagging point— she Is expecting an almost impassible— mentally bending/expecting an external unbendable, . instead of. taking Trifles’ kind of stand— if I cannot change another/third party, I will change myself — my attitudes/expectation.
LaR. I do feel you are sounding calmest and clearer headed than before. Each of is seems to see others’ clases more clearly, bit less our own —- because we are all inside our own foggy woods…
Sorry for typo, @denist office.
@Mila, I really sympathize with your situation. It’s so hard when the person genuinely likes you, and reaches out! But…they are still…in that way…out of reach.
and @Snow
“Whether he’s non-limerent or not, a friendship does not, in my eyes, take this much of a person’s mental space.”
Those are the words I need to keep in mind, too. I saw my LO the other day and he came right over, talking to me like he didn’t want to leave. It had been a couple weeks, and he was full of things he’d seen that “made him think of me” and things he’d tried that he wanted to recommend to me. Aaagh.
But, let’s face facts: he is 30 and I am 49. I truly believe he sees me as a friend. Still, the past two days since, I can feel that addictive pull. The rumination, the intrusive thoughts. The drama. I miss him. I’m sad.
And I know, I am not his friend. My orientation towards him is…clouded, cloaked. He may be MY friend, but I am not his.
The barometer of how much mental space he takes up, even if I haven’t seen him in a while, is a good one. It’s a scary and upsetting and frustrating one, but a good one.
Hm no, neither Sammy nor Snow get me, sorry. I‘m not in pain or vexed. This thing doesn’t take up my mental space , I just write here about it. I cherish my friendships and take them seriously, yes.
Don’t take it personally if I leave it at that.
I’m going to have another crack at this later Mila (so you can tell me after your few mulled wines that I also don’t get it). Or, if I do remotely get it, then I have a sizeable barrel of mulled (spiked with kirsch and brandy) on S
specials at the Inn tonight, if you just want to sit and wallow in (x)LE stuff once the real mulled runs out.
LAR,
Please don‘t feel you have to. Neither of you has to get me, really, because you don’t have the full range of information about me, XLO or anything, it’s up to me to judge my own situation in the end. I just had one real red wine and a lot to eat and feel sober enough to write a nice short email that of course we stay friends. Just need a bit of honing that it doesn’t feel too short to him.
Mila (LaR)
that’s a point you talked before and I’ll discuss with LaR &Trifles later about our knowledge of faceless or visible “ghosts” online based on mere WRITTEN words — each of us read them differently without looking at and sensing the speaker’s spontaneous mood , knowing their realistic facts, instant Q&A, or feedback… thus misinterpretations, misunderstandings, and verbal “mistreatment” have occurred a lot of times here.
Each of us here has at least two identity — one for our reality, one for LwL, not separated on purpose but by natures of communication styles. No matter how much truths (lying is not included in the discussion) we so sincerely try to tell the whole world, we remain partially (10-90%) unknown and unknowable to each other.
The other side of the coin is that partial knowledge/mysteries provoke/fuel our curiosity and imagination, regulating (at least mine) mood, keeping us “hooked” in Amoor Inn. If I know someone inside out and they don’t change/evolve, she or he would become a dead horse/pony…
Hi Snow,
absolutely right. I would even go as far as saying it’s not possible to know anyone really inside out, there will always remain some corners one cannot see, or changes one doesn’t perceive.
This is another one of those: does she want advice or does she want sympathy?
I think this time those who voted “sympathy” got it right. 😉
We’re so eager to help that we offer our advice anyway … And as always, some just come for the mulled wine!
Trifles,
You’re right: T head go for empathy and advice; F for sympathy and mulled wine… my big Ego 🫡 automatically goes for possible causes and solutions….
Mila,
So insightful: one can never know inside out of another, or even ONESELF. We and they keep changing and evolving, and our mind/thinkings/feelings and body/movement/actions, are also driven or heavily influenced by our Unconscious at any given moment (not just in dreams — when conscious mind is temporarily shot down).
Your mental/emotional process in written words often gave one (especially me) an impression that you were agitated/vexed…. I tend not to write down anything when I were not calm enough to talk (e.g. about my upsetting dreams). Every post had been noisily/messily cooked/brewed in my head for a while before coming to the table of LwL.
CSC,
You probably already know my rambling style here — as short and straightforward as possible, without enough vanilla butter most of the time. 😊
“It had been a couple weeks, and he was full of things he’d seen that “made him think of me” and things he’d tried that he wanted to recommend to me. Aaagh.”
There are men and women who are socializing experts to know what other side(s) want and expect to hear and how to flatter or meet up the expectations. They will apply their skill (or play their talented games) when they need something from you (collective), or simply for the sake of enjoying the game. Please keep this in mind all the time! My head would immediately raise a red flag 🚩if someone (man or woman), like your LO, does that to me.
“But, let’s face facts: he is 30 and I am 49. I truly believe he sees me as a friend.”
What is your belief based on❓ “sees” you as friend, what about “treats” you as a friend❓
“Still, the past two days since, I can feel that addictive pull. The rumination, the intrusive thoughts. The drama. I miss him. I’m sad.”
Understandable, you’re still in limerence with him. Instead of feeling sad, try to think hard why or for what possible reasons, he would be or has been attracted to you, with such a huge age gap (not the other way around). Search in you and count up all your attractive qualities or vulnerabilities to see if some of them could and would attract compliments/flattery of a 30 years old, honey-mouthed man. Check those lists of IFS Protector, Wounds, and SELF. We want our SELF parts to be attractive elements, not our appearance, physiques, or Protectors.
“And I know, I am not his friend. My orientation towards him is…clouded, cloaked. He may be MY friend, but I am not his.”
Check whether one is a friend or can be a qualified friend, I used “adversities” to test them (not artificially made, but real ones in your reality. e.g. bravely and skillfully show one of your vulnerabilities/wounds to see how they would react. ) If they can pass tests, they are and remain as a friend, if not, accept the fate and move on. By doing this, you are your OWN master, not anyone else, no matter how they try or tease.
“The barometer of how much mental space he takes up, even if I haven’t seen him in a while, is a good one. It’s a scary and upsetting and frustrating one, but a good one.”
Based on my and many others’ LE experiences here, LE mentality is going to last for a long while… the best strategy is to watch it and make a mental mark (like you just wrote down here) what’s happening inside your head without emotional reacting or condemning them.
Best wishes!
Mila,
I can’t help but engage T brain here? but I hope not in a way that’s annoying.
When I read Sammy’s reply to you earlier, I thought ‘no, that’s not right, she’s no
longer limerent’. But then I questioned whether he was *totally* off kilter. In my earlier reply (sent before that), I had been tempted to prompt you to think ‘is there any limerence hangover at all influencing how you feel?’
Let me put it this way – compared to the pre limerence friendship, the LE brings everything about the LO (good and bad) into laser sharp focus. Characteristics in him that might not have bothered you pre-LE would bother you in the LE. Then when the lim-sugar coating is gone, it is maybe not fully possible to wash the level of ‘botheredness’ out? At least not quickly?
This could all be down the pipes for me as well. A friendship after limerence will never be the same as before it. The fact he looks to you for validation yet doesn’t validate you back (plus his endless back and forth about leaving work / town) irked you a lot. That can’t just go away.
You and I have been an almost exclusive club of two for quite a while saying “we can be friends with this person after LE”. It isn’t without challenge, is it?! You are right what you’ve said before that my LO is wired very differently to yours, and effort levels between us are quite mutual, which does give us a fighting chance I think. But I don’t have the illusion it will be all easy.
I hope you figure it out.
Now, it appears Snow and Adam have arrived at the Amoors Inn for an ‘MFF meetup’, so I better get to work ‘not enabling’ 😅🍻 .
Snow,
Thank you for saying I sound calmer and clearer headed. It can be hard to feel that day by day, better if I look and compare further back like a year ago when it was running really hot. I am able to give authentic friendship more of the time now with the hot and cold feelings turned down. There are better and worse spells, better again at the moment.
“You admit that LE has got in the way of your friendship.”
Within my head, yes, because of the blurred boundary. In terms of how I treat her, no; if anything I put more effort into the friendship, as I have no other way to channel the positivity I feel towards her.
I never really responded to another point you made about it lately – that you can’t see how someone can fall for a friend (in your COO sense of how a friend and love interest are so different). I think this gets at the debate several of us have had here before about my MFF – can she ever have been *truly* just a platonic friend? Or me to her?? I told you before about the decade-old pre glimmer I had. I suppressed it so hard I even fooled myself – I never thought about her ‘like that’ (in conscious or dreams) for very many years. But maybe the flame always was there, I just couldn’t see it. In those intervening years, we just became close friends, pure and simple. So that’s my best attempt at how I think both things came to be true.
Mila, LaR,
“which does give us a fighting chance I think. But I don’t have the illusion it will be all easy.“
Not sure whether I should keep my big mouth shot 🤐 but well: LE simply would not go away easily or quickly just because our T brain has determined IT has to go “finally”…. Look at how long for some limerents to reach that point of “finally”?? 2 or 4 decades, or 5 to 10 years?
Mila, although I couldn’t see your mood each time when you posted, but each time you made a decision based on a text or an email from your MFF, I said to myself, “let me just wait and see…” I doubted every single time and wished to be proven wrong, but …. I chose to believe your intuitive or rational decisions, but by experiences, I know Limerence is a sweet and bitter “beast” that possibly never dies…
So we all need to prepare for the most unwanted — LE’s persisting, recurring head, just look at m LE — ET is totally gone, but my system could not turn off LE’s switch — there is no button to push! My mind/heart have nowhere to run even in my slumbers… except to watch residual LE surging and ebbing with annoyance or pains during waking hours, without any expectations….
LaR,
“I think this gets at the debate several of us have had here before about my MFF – can she ever have been *truly* just a platonic friend? Or me to her?? I told you before about the decade-old pre glimmer I had. I suppressed it so hard I even fooled myself – I never thought about her ‘like that’ (in conscious or dreams) for very many years. But maybe the flame always was there, I just couldn’t see it.”
We already talked about this — Glimmer plants a seed deeply. You’d be pompous if you think your efforts can change/fool your DNA. Your behavior or T brain can be platonic, but not your DNA drives. Why some of us exaggerates T brain🧠 and not F intelligence? The only thing unknown here is whether a Glimmer seed ever landed in your MFF system.
To me, the fundamental difference between friendship and crush/LE is where that Glimmer ever existed. In my experiences, Glimmer can NOT be cultivated but only bestowed; it can be killed later for sure for whatever reasons.
Typo: is whether that Glimmer ever existed….
Hi all,
sympathy and advice are all welcome but I realized that I heed more the kind advice that doesn’t claim to know me better than myself, but just offers an option… which is good to know for myself since I dole out that „do this,you are that“ advice too.
Of course the source of all the trouble was in limerence, and limerence might he lead to a wrong picture of his abilities. But the main event was him leaving (or not deciding), that actually let this same limerence loose. And I’m still very unimpressed how he handled that friendshipwise. As Snow said, there are some kind of tests for a friendship and this was one of them.
Also , it’s not that only limerence touches us deeply emotionally and in everything else we are completely independent and untouched by the behavior of people we like.
I do write here when I‘m agitated because that’s when I need it. When I’ve calmed down and settled, I don’t need it that much to write. Also, as my SO pointed out to me, I tend to sound agitated when I‘m just immersed in my train of thoughts.
Is only limerence allowed to agitate and vex? All other human relationships sail smoothly on sensible and calm waters? I don’t think so.
I sent a nice and heartfelt email that doesn’t touch on the old subjects anymore, since now I calmed down completely and I‘m still fond of him and want to put him at ease in the whole matter. Don’t know how he will take it, but I hope he will accept it and we can just go on being friends, and enjoy meeting in January.
@MIla.
“He wrote back after two days, thanks for the honest words and that he needs a few days to stomach my email.”
“Now, after more 5 days, he wrote another email, and I have to say, he just doesn’t get it, it’s amazing.”
“,,, what is the use in trying to explain something to him again that he just cannot grasp.”
Mila, sweetie, to me it sounds like you’re just dealing with a non-limerent person. There’s no big, dramatic explanation on why your LO doesn’t love you in the way you think you want/deserve to be loved. He’s simply non-limerent.
A limerent’s greatest desire is to be loved. One’s desire to be loved above all else can blind one to the reality of other people’s much more muted feelings. (For example, we may be unable to see that other people DO love us, but not in a super-intense, all-consuming way).
In your friendship, you were reacting limerently to this man whereas he was interacting with you in a way that evidently didn’t involve mutual limerence.
Your LO is baffled because he very likely had no idea you were/are emotionally dependent on his actions/inactions. News of your hitherto invisible emotional dependency on him would be deeply shocking to him. You have been dancing with yourself in the dark, figuratively speaking, while thinking someone was there in the same dimly-lit room dancing with you. 🙂
Basically, you want/wanted a very specific emotional response from this man. If he’s non-limerent, he couldn’t/can’t give you that response. You’ve likely spent the whole friendship “reading into things” and overestimating the closeness of the bond. If the connection is close, you’ve overestimated the man’s desire for closeness to you. You’ve projected your own desire for closeness onto another.
A non-limerent will likely never understand limerence until they experience it firsthand themselves, as Dorothy Tennov notes, so explanations will be a waste of time. You just have to accept that you “got it wrong” this time round i.e. your limerent brain saw/created evidence of mutual reciprocated desire of the obsessive kind that didn’t/doesn’t necessarily align with reality. A non-limerent LO may be able to develop great fondness for you, but he will never crave you.
You can’t blame a non-limerent LO when/if the whole fantasy castle comes crashing down, because a non-limerent LO will never get it. The reason the non-limerent LO will never get it is because they are not in the same “altered state” that you are in. The non-limerent LO is seeing a very boring picture of reality whereas you’re looking at life through a temporarily distorted lens. (Have you heard of “beer goggles”? Some good Germans may wear “beer goggles” during Oktoberfest. You, on the other hand, are wearing your “infatuation goggles”).
“On the other side, can I live with him being angry and ending the friendship completely?”
If your former LO is non-limerent, he’s not feeling angry; he’s feeling baffled, as you’ve already said and as I’ve already pointed out above. If you decide to reproach him for hurting your feelings, he may well end up feeling angry (angry and sad) because such accusations are without foundation in his eyes. He’s been a good friend from his point of view, and you’ve been the person who has been doubting the sincerity of his friendship and constantly “reading into things”.
It is unkind of you to call your LO “limited”. He is not limited. He is merely non-limerent. He is only limited in the sense he can’t give you the very specific emotional response you crave from him due to your own state of lovesickness. If you were not lovesick for your LO, you would not call him limited. You’re failing to see this man has a complex life outside of his relationship with you. On some level, you don’t want this man to have a complex life outside of his relationship with you. You have given this man too much importance in your mind, and now he seems like a tyrant to you. But perhaps he didn’t sign up for the tyrant role?
Hope this analysis helps. 🙂
Chief source: some lousy life experience of my own. 🤣🤣😜
Sorry Sammy,
While you were certainly right a few months or year ago, now you are on the wrong track. I‘m not limerent anymore , quite a while.
And his reaction is not simply that of a non- limerent. It does show a very limited ability to respond.
I would have to quote the emails to show you, you would understand what I mean, but of course I cannot do that here.
I‘m simply talking about a close friendship that doesn’t seem possible now I‘m not limerent anymore- you are right in that I invested him with all sorts of sensibilities and deep thoughts while limerent, but that’s long gone. Now I simply see that he is much less capable to be a friend than other friends of mine. Which is ok, I have to adjust.
Thanks anyway, as I said, you would have been absolutely right on the spot earlier in the year! But I‘ve really moved on. It’s about basic social interaction between friends that I‘m used to, this seems very difficult for him.
I do still like him very much and I see that my expectations were simply wrong and he‘s not to blame fir my expectations. The thing is, he hinted that he gets misunderstood at home and in other areas too. But I already abandoned the thought that that’s why I should give feedback and that he might learn to interact better, it’s not my problem and place, he has to solve it himself.
Thank you for your solid advice though!
Hello all.
Thought this would be a good time to share an update.
Absolutely ZERO contact with LO for a while, and I seem to be feeling much better. I am also enjoying other aspects of my life better than before, this is a huge plus for me.
What changed? I really do not know. Maybe, the LE had a shelf life, and ran its course. Maybe both of us realised that we need to take steps back. Maybe I am more committed to my SO now.
It would be really interesting how I feel during the next LO interaction, as in will the high-low cycle show up again, like it used to? Only time will tell.
Going forward, I need to stay vigilant that something like this does not happen again.
Wishing happy holidays to all!
Hey ABCD,
This is good news from you. I am glad to hear it! You can have a relaxing holiday season now, with no hankering! Yay!
About this:
” I am also enjoying other aspects of my life better than before, this is a huge plus for me.
What changed? I really do not know. Maybe, the LE had a shelf life, and ran its course. Maybe both of us realised that we need to take steps back. Maybe I am more committed to my SO now.”
The enjoying other aspects of life really accelerates recovery, especially if SO is involved. It tickles those neurons that other parts of life may not reach. Maybe your LE also had a shelf life. I think once the LO can be looked at more objectively, and once this can be consistent, the dopamine hit diminishes even when you/I do think about them. Just getting LO out of mind for a while works wonders in stabilising my self-medication using LO reward. This is why NC works! And LC works too as long as we refuse to think about LO when they are not there!
Now, go tell yourself how great you are on a regular basis. ‘Cos you are.
Thanks Bewitched!
As of now, LO thoughts are not giving me highs as much as they used to. I won’t lie – I still get some high. But, the main point is that these thoughts do not really bother me much, I just let them coolly come and go, without giving them much headspace.
Yes, NC/LC is definitely a great tool. Out of slight, (mostly) out of mind..
Wow, ABCD
That is amazing. Congratulations! 🙂
I had a relapse. I’m dealing with the effects now, the bottomed-out, empty feeling. But, I know it’s just part of my limerent state.
I think I will take a page from your book and go completely NC. I “tried”, but not hard enough. I will need to change my routine so as not to run into LO. It’s awful consider as this will cut off my one current source of true Joy and Fun. (LO, and Will-I-see-LO-anticipation.) But, it will also cut off the disappointment and withdrawal, eventually. Right?
Reading your words is very helpful – I need to remember my state of mind right now can’t picture feeling less triggered. And there is hope for more stability. You are proof! 🙂
Hi, thanks CSC!
I have had my share of relapses, as this community knows. Yes, as you said, this low feeling will pass soon, it always does.
Yes, I definitely recommend as much NC as possible. Like you, I also need to co-exist with my LO. Many times, our meeting is not in my hands, so cannot do anything about that. Plus, my SO has shown reservations in us meeting them, probably as she knows about LE, so that works out well for me.
In the past, I used to seek LO as well, as we used to go past each other. So that anticipation of running into LO was definitely there. Now, we just do not run into each other. Perhaps both of us are avoiding each other, I don’t know. But, again, it leads to more NC, and helps for sure.
“It’s awful consider as this will cut off my one current source of true Joy and Fun. (LO, and Will-I-see-LO-anticipation.) But, it will also cut off the disappointment and withdrawal, eventually. Right?”
Absolutely, I no longer have those highs, but I no longer have those lows. Plus, I am trying to find highs from other avenues – work, family, exercise. Also, I try to remember how crappy some of the lows made me feel, and this helps me stay on course.
All the best to you, CSC!
Hi Mila. I think that you have crossed the hard hurdle that is limerence. So, pat yourself on the back for that. I am sure you will handle the remainder part where you decide how you want to take it ahead with your former LO.
I hope that you can go back to being friends. This is how I imagine how my contact with my former LO would be. Exchange pleasantries, make some talk, without feeling too happy or crappy later. We shall see how it goes.
All the best.
Hi ABCD,
thanks. I think at some point yesterday I completely let go. I sent a nice mail and hope he can appreciate it and we can move on and just be friends again. I know now what the limits of this friendship are and will move within them. If he decides that he cannot cope with the words that were exchanged and pulls out of the friendship, then that’s how it will be.
I don’t pat myself on the back too much because I think much of all the hassle is my own fault (like any limerent‘s), but I’m certainly very happy to be out in the fresh air!
Hi everyone,
I’m writing to let you know that I’ve decided it’s time for me to leave LwL for good. My reason for leaving is I’ve found the answers I was looking for in Dr. L’s wonderfully written articles. Also, I’m happy, healthy, and emotionally stable. My life is back on track, so it’s time for me to focus on purposeful living. 🙂
Thank you to anyone who over the years has posted thoughtful comments or helpful links (I’m mainly thinking of you, Limerent Emeritus). Your generosity is greatly appreciated. 🙏
Some parting words of encouragement to individual members:
Trifles – I would say your most striking trait to me is your intelligence. I’m tempted to ask you whether you’re a girl who wants sympathy or a girl who wants advice. But the answer to that question is none of my business. I want to remember you as a Frenchwomen should be remembered – someone with a certain air of mystery about her. 🙂
Mila – I didn’t read your response to me, because I understand your current frame of mind. People say things they regret when they are upset, and it’s better for my own well-being if I do not hear/see certain things. (I grew up with sisters. I have seen mostly delightful human females at their most enraged and jealous and petty and vindictive and irrational). You don’t need to like me. You don’t need to dislike me. You don’t need to think about me at all. However, someday I hope you will take a moment and ask yourself this question: “Why doesn’t Mila like Mila?” 🤔
Snowphoenix – I didn’t think you were capable of improvement. However, some of the advice you give people these days isn’t terrible. Being a warrior queen is all very well. However, I would like to leave you with this quote from one of your favourite authors: “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster…” (Friedrich Nietzsche). Don’t become the thing you hate. 😉
MJ – Yes, it feels like we’re brothers. (How embarrassing! I’m the eldest, by the way. Mum always liked me better). 🤣🤣🤣
Lim-a-rant – most agreeable man I’ve ever met. Are you sure you’re a “T”? Your agreeability as a personality trait is off the charts. 🙂
Bewitched – look after yourself, take care of your friends. 😉
Serial Limerent – chocolate lovers forever! 😁
Marcia – still my pick for “fan favourite”. You are one sassy lady. **Hugs** 😜
I am sorry to see you go Sammy. You have been written an insightful comment (or ten) over the years. I actually liked your description of limerence to Mila in your recent post as it got me thinking again about limerence. Even though I know what it means for me, sometimes other people have a great way of putting the phenomenon into words that really makes it hit home in a new way. Even though I am mostly over limerence, I still enjoy thinking about limerence in the abstract.
Your comments have been extremely humorous too, of course, and I have enjoyed your purple prose no end. Thanks for bringing brightness to proceedings.
Its great to see that you are on such good form these days. All the best to you in your purposeful living. I hope you get your heart’s desire, whatever that may be.
😇
Bewitched,
How stressful that the other hand of purple proses is gone… what the remaining restless 🖊️🤺 is going to do❓
A true story: one of only 5 University Professors in an Ivory Univ. here (I worked for) died of blood cancer. His biggest academic rival (retired but active, in competing with him in talents/achievements for decades), suddenly died (mysteriously) in one week — Gossip: she lost “incentives” to live on…
Enjoy your leveled LE warmth ✨ 💖!
Sammy, if you are indeed leaving and you are leaving with such nice words, then I will have to confess something. When I first came to LwL to figure out this thing called limerence, I found comments that resonated with me so much that I copied them to my notes for future reference. Most of those comments were penned by a “Sammy”. I’ve also enjoyed laughing out loud to some of your comments (the ones that were intended to be laughed at …Well, most of them!).
By the way, I also found good wisdom in your comment to Mila. And I thought Mila’s response to you was very nice (as far I remember, I’m not going back to read it now). She’s a very reasonable person, don’t worry about offending her.
I’m glad to hear you are feeling well and ready to move on (to grace some other subject matter forums, perhaps… What we don’t know about Sammy, also quite the mystery!)
Au revoir!
Thanks Trifles;)
Sammy,
Thank you for the kind words.
May life bring you love, success, and happiness.
I also can’t resist agreeing with Sammy on one more thing: I’ve been thinking LaR must be some sort of mediator or HR person (in charge of the most difficult situations!) in real life.
Ah Sammy,
You really don’t get me at all, and I mean that in a fond way. I like myself quite a lot, and I like you a lot too. I just disagree with you that I‘m still limerent and that that is the cause of me finding my XLO inadequate in his behavior as a close friend, that’s all.
I always delight in your way with words and me too, I found over the last year many comments of yours that just nailed it perfectly and helped me a lot. Your recent comment, as I said,
would have been absolutely brilliant for me a few months ago, I just feel I’m past that now, and you cannot know that, of course.
Actually, it’s me who should quit here probably.
If you really want to stop, I wish you all the best, health and happiness and all you wish for!
Sammy (Sammash),
I’m sorry to see that a matching “rival hand” is leaving here, now where could I find a magnificent 🐲 to spin and slain?
Thank you for your advice, but I assure you that I cannot, even I wish, become “the monster” (a system? a mindset? ) in Nietzsche’s eyes, because under the steel armor, there were many healed and still open scars. On top of them underneath the armor, there is also the cocktail dress swishing swinging with the tempo of a tender heart and the pulses of Qi.
Based on my experiences and views on internet communication and connection (addressed to Trifles last night), I don’t blame you for having partial ideas/views and skewed opinion/emotions about me; that’s the annoying and almost unconquerable limitations of mere written words.
I second Bewitched here that from your prolific posts and your acute insights, I’ve learned tremendous stuff related to limerence and other cultural phenomena. The issue with me is there is too much intellectuality, morality, judgment, but not enough emotions, seeped in your “authoritarian-toned” speeches (at least to my highly sensitive, biased ears). Things I sensed or felt through my cultural background, personal experiences, and understanding of ESL, were proven unfortunately inaccurate or wrong again and again….
But I have to say that without your intellectual challenges and emotionally hammerings, there would be little chance for me to become more Stoic and maturer in such a short time. COO’s idiom “Adversity is one’s best teacher” never fails its accuracy in all walks of human life.
So I Thank You here at last for your unintended “aim and achievement”! Now I know I can be a very intuitive, sensical, speedy student, in learning about all sort of life lessons and training for necessary serving and thriving skills, in my small life, of which you know probably about a quarter….
I think I understand well where your LwL personality (based on your posts and confessions) is from, which makes me feeling bottomlessly sad and almost helpless compassion (due to my pride, I did not want to express it)… There are people similar to you in my reality, in which I’m so incapable to connect with or help should they need any…
I wish you a continuous purposeful, fulfilling journey in your unique life! Please drop your 🐉 presence by sometimes when you are in the mood for LwL…
❄️🐦🔥
Aw, I will miss your quirky humor, Sammy. Have fun being healthy. 🙂
Sammy my Brother, thank you for your kind words. We sure are losing one of LwLs finest. You’re posts have always been filled with insight, good advice and plenty of humor. I am going to miss your polite criticizing of my posts. If they never made sense to you, how will they ever make sense to anyone else? I’ll have to get creative.
I’m glad life is going swimmingly for you and everything seems to be falling into place. I wish I could say the same. It’s like polar opposite over here, but the good thing is my LE is nowhere near as bad as it once was. Hoping to get where you are eventually..
I wish you well Friend. Wherever you are or wherever you go. Don’t be a stranger. Come back and see us..
Hi all,
I need to pick the collective LwL brain(s) in what is my first ‘how the heck do I cope with….?’ message for a while.
I haven’t said that much about this bit before, but the texting side with LO is one of the worst and most distressing bits. We don’t have a need to text much, as we see each other regularly. Text interaction often occurs around such times, but not that much at other times.
To hazard a guess, I’d say that getting into loads of texting is one of those boundaries we both know isn’t wise to step over. I certainly hold back loads for that reason. But whatever the reason on her side, texting always has been pretty sporadic and unpredictable. That’s how it is.
I deal with this quite well normally, and don’t give it much of a second thought, as we have lots of in person interaction. But where it gets difficult is in holiday periods where we don”t have that. Probably many people here at LwL are facing the same thing of normal interaction patterns being interrupted over Christmas and this ‘texting uncertainty’ as a result.
LO can seem to go quite long with complete NC in these periods. I have always broken at about the week or ten day mark and instigated texts. To even get to a week or ten days without contact proves really painful, especially in the first few days. If and whenever I instigate, I will always get loads back, but I don’t want to always do that and feel like I am pestering.
So what to do? Well-meaning advice might say ‘get the benefits of NC and redirect focus onto SO’. I know that is a very good course of action, but actually getting to the point is difficult. I will ruminate in the first few days especially about whether to text LO, wait endlessly for her to text me (she usually doesn’t), and also ruminate a lot about *why* she doesn’t text me (sound the ‘futile’ alarm on that last bit please, Trifles! 📣).
Does this sound familiar to anyone? If yes, what strategies can you share for navigating the situation and the emotions it throws up more cleanly?
You see, the rational side of me understands this – no texts for a week or two *does not* equate to a bigger problem! Every time we have been through this cycle before, we come out the other side as warm as ever when we see each other again. I have loads of evidence of it. But the emotional side then takes over when I’m ‘in it’ and I just can”t think rationally.
This isn’t a post just wanting an ear or
empathy (although they are always welcome)
– genuine practical tips for navigating it would be appreciated, as I just know many of you will have been through this. Holidays are the ‘coldest’ part of the warm-cold cycles in my LE, so I am approaching it with a bit of dread to be honest.
Thanks for ‘listening’ and for any thoughts or suggestions you can offer.
LaR,
A quick response from bird 🐦🔥 —
Buddhistic view:
The urge arrives to initiate texting: acknowledge and watch/meditate on it — my deepest/DNA desire is here. If I feed it, it will bring me the dopamine fix, deepen my obsession; if resisting it, rumination, anxiety, pain of missing LO will follow.
Stoic treatment:
A. Controllable:
1. text or resist it.
2. Endure or NOT the pains of waiting, expecting, unknowing, rumination, missing LO.
3. Will see MFF in a couple of weeks.
B: Uncontrollable:
1, Whether or when she replies.
2, your moods (int. & ext.) w/o her replaces.
3, her words and their subtle connotation — hot, cold, or lukewarm.
4. The degree of your focus on SO and other family members.
Possible actions:
Reading, workout, music, movie/video binge, hot/cold shower, holiday greeting some old friends, stop in LwL dimension and take overtime shifts in Amoor Inn— serving LwL colorful ghosts can never be dull… we’ll tip you with loads of 🫂 🫂 🫂 and 💋 💋 💋….
Very helpful words in all three parts of that, Snow, thank you 🫂 I think they will continue to be helpful to come back to as I pass through the holiday spell. I definitely owe myself some major time for reading, binge watching and music.
And for sure, I expect I will spend plenty of time at the Amoors. Maybe I could even get a day off and have a look at the inn from the other side of the bar. We all know which happened last time I took a day off though 🧯
Not sure if I‘m the right person because it was hard for me too.
I can just tell you that you would be wise to stay away from texting hell. With this I mean, don’t start viewing texting as an important mood regulator for you and an indicator of your friendship with LO. I couldn’t help it because it was the main communication between XLO and me since he moved away, but you can.
Don’t put too much meaning into her responding or not.
Maybe it helps if you simply see holiday time as absolute LO free time. A break from texting, with the secure knowledge that you‘ll see her again after the holidays. Thus, if she texts, it will be a pleasant surprise, but you won’t wait for it. You are in the lucky position to know contact will be there after holidays, so why not just decide for yourself to declare a LO-break for yourself, regardless what she does or doesn’t?
She doesn’t seem to need the contact but still likes you a lot, so why not try to get into this mood yourself.
I put XLOs chat into archive on WhatsApp as not to see it every time I open the app, I even put him on mute so as not to wait for a text, but just check once in the evening if he wrote. Don’t know if I can recommend the latter, though, because it might mean not responding to an urgent text of hers in time when it might be necessary.
Thanks Mila,
It never becomes a ‘will she reply?’ debate. That’s because she (like you) pretty much always replies to ‘finish the business’. It is more for me about how often to instigate when there is little instigation back.
It is right what you and SL have discussed that texting isn’t a barometer of a relationship if the real life interaction is warm, and that some people (my LO included) just aren’t all that bothered about texting – with anyone. Everyone has their own patterns as you say, and the reasons really differ.
“I couldn’t help it because it was the main communication between XLO and me since he moved away, but you can.”
I think I feel more (even just in anticipation of a few weeks’ break, let alone permanent), why moving to a text-based relationship caused you so much angst. If and when in the future this becomes a thing for me, it will be difficult. I think what I’d learn from your experience is that I might even talk to her upfront (if permanent, not at Christmas!) to figure out the nature of a texting relationship that could work for us both.
“why not just decide for yourself to declare a LO-break for yourself, regardless what she does or doesn’t?”
It sounds good on paper, but you give me too much credit for being that rational about it. F brain takes over and – bottom line if I am frank about it – I just miss my dopamine like an addict in withdrawal.
I’ll figure out how to handle it, don’t worry. Thanks for the ideas.
LaR,
Snow’s and Mila’s advice sound very good! You might have heard my tactics before and I don’t know how great they are. But anyway, this is what I did:
1. just tried to grin and bear it, distract myself. I proudly marked an x on the calendar when I resisted texting
2. came on here and asked people to hold me accountable if I text
3. started texting someone else (*shrug*)
If your LO can hold NC for over a week, I’d say she either is not limerent or has nerves of steel! Once I got angry at xLO, decided I’d never contact him again and quietly went NC – for three weeks. When I came back I’m not sure if he’d even noticed I was gone.
I think the worst part is wondering if LO will text you first – or when she’ll reply to you – so you have to take the power out of her hands, so to say. If you’re a planner and are motivated by holding yourself accountable, I would make a plan of which days I would text her, and stick to it. That way you are in control. If you fold, you have to come on LwL and we will yell at you (or whatever you choose for punishment). I would allow myself some days for texting because the plan has to be realistic in order for it to succeed.
„I think the worst part is wondering if LO will text you first – or when she’ll reply to you – so you have to take the power out of her hands, so to say.“
Yes, crucial point. That’s a bit what I was trying to say- YOU decide not to text over the holidays. I mean, how long are your holidays? Your are anyway going to exchange Christmas and New Year’s greetings, no? Wouldn’t it be possible to just leave it at that? If you allow some days for texting, there will be the expectation/waiting if she answers or not.
T: Use 🔨🔨 on LaR 🧠🔨🔨 when necessary…
Trifles,
“If you’re a planner … I would make a plan of which days I would text her, and stick to it. That way you are in control”
That’s a really good idea, and I don’t think I’d fold and text on other days once I had that plan. I would leave decent gaps too, but try not to have expectations that she’d fill them (easier said than done, even as I write this, but gotta start somewhere).
Usually in breaks from real contact, I rely on instinct about when and when not to text, and I seem to get it about right based on the responses. It is more the rumination on why she doesn’t instigate much that troubles me, bringing us to …
“If your LO can hold NC for over a week, I’d say she either is not limerent or has nerves of steel!”
If there is one thing I did learn in 2024, it is that she is not limerent. If DrL says the population is about 50-50 between the two tribes, then she’s in the other tribe (based on things she has said about other relationships, not only my experiences). This doesn’t mean I rule out that she has or has had some feelings for me, but whatever they are, they aren’t limerence.
There are, I think, other reasons she doesn’t instigate much texting. Respect for mine and SO’s boundaries is one (has told me that), and there are others too which I feel are giving too much away if I say them.
You could probably pontificate on this, though, by taking her position and thinking of all the reasons you might not text me if you were her. Like, when you had your 3 week NC what was going through your mind then? (Rhetorical, not trying to make you answer in LwL). If I take my turn on the ‘non enabling’ pact between us, maybe there would be stuff there you could take forward to slow things down with TO *if and when you want to*.
Happy Saturday. I haven’t had any orders for that minced beef trifle yet. Do you think you could do a bit of PR somehow? I hate food waste, especially trifle waste.
LaR, Actually that 3 week NC was a sliding doors moment. I could’ve ended my limerence right there. I had only known him for a few weeks before then, and didn’t really know him too well at that point. He was just a glimmery man. After the 3 weeks NC something happened, he opened up more (not even much but enough for me) and it made him endearing to me as a person.
In hindsight, I should’ve let my pride win and stopped at the NC point.
So it was very different from your or my current situations where we have known the person for a long time. I was able to keep NC because of my anger and pride. I can’t use that now with such an “agreeable” and attentive TO.
Jingle for PR purposes:
(If you don’t recognize the tune, ask L.E.)
It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday
The regular crowd shuffles in
There’s an “old man” (Adam, self-proclaimed old man) sittin’ next to me
Makin’ love to his tonic and gin
…
Now LaR at the bar is a friend of mine
He gets me my drinks for free 👍🏻😉
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke (“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”
As the smile ran away from his face
“We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles
I should kick you out of this place”
Ha, Trifle!
Love it. Should we introduce a drink called „Loneliness“ then, and drink it together?
Oh man a song, that’s so cool 👏👏👏 You never fail to astound! (Let us hope my old man patron feels the same).
What you say about not being able to use the same LC/NC tactics on TO as you did for LO rings very true with what I said yesterday about it being all down to the individual relationship and what both people put in and want out. I know it is unwise to conflate situations, and I know there are big differences, but where you are with him on all this feels like it has some similarity to where LO might be with me.
Trifles, it always helps me in some way to ‘chat’ to you, thanks 🙂
Trifles, the Jingle rocks! Please add more our patrons into the rhythm to get their visits. DrL’s channel and LwL need more funds.
Mila, I think we could add another drink named, “Burnout”, I feel too burned out to come in this morning to work in Amoor Inn!
Thank Zeus, I haven’t have some torturing dreams for a couple of days…. LaR, I think your bullseye questions kept them at bay.…
A lot of times, just pondering about how to answer questions answers them in unexpected ways… Our F/T brain — the dance and wrestle of Athena with Aphrodite, is such an marvelous, beautiful creature.
Last night, I was planning and preparing in details to start a Tech company with Dad, (and another childhood friend who confessed in Limerence with me in HS). I was somewhat pessimistic but Dad was so enthusiastic and energetic as usual; it’s so pleasant to watch …. This made up for my 12/11 missed memorial ⛩️
Trifles,
Do you mind if I add some “colors” to our patrons in your jungle? I won’t change your ideas/images, but just color them more.
A strong rhythm is already rocking in my head with your jingle…. It’s really cool! I wish I could write the musical notes down..
Snow, of course I don’t mind! Color away…
You might – or might not, depending on how you get inspired – check Mila’s link for the original however.
I’m upset I couldn’t work Imho in there and I’m missing some others too.
Mila, I’ve never seen that video before! It’s exactly like I imagine Amoor’s Inn! It’s even called an Inn …spooky! LaR doesn’t look like I imagine him though. (I picture a younger Paul Bettany 😉)
But I look pretty much the same (as a waitress) 😜
Trifles, I did hear it once or twice but completely forgot about it. You’re a genius to come up with your jingle that beats song Mila linked!
Just sit and sip Mila’s mulled wine with LaR, and other images of our patrons will come out soon or later naturally.
I do have to teach now for the entire afternoon, later.
A detail: Imho went to a mysterious retreat for a while without even a cell phone… she’s wearing a RED dress to meet her LO…
Trifles,
impressive décolleté;)!
I didn’t know the video either, actually, just the song.
Mila, mercí! Quelle réaliste!
Ok Snow and Mila, you asked for it..!
No offense meant for anyone, just have to go with the rhymes.
Now L.E. is a retired submariner
Who’s happy at home with his wife
And he’s talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
But will probably do ok in life
And MJ is an old-hand limerent
Who’s looking for a young wife
And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla
But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is practicing politics
As the limerents slowly get stoned
Yes, they’re sharing a drink they call Loneliness
But it’s better than drinkin’ alone…
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
Ooh I’d like to chill in Anguilla, wherever that is!
Haven’t heard that song in a long time!
Very talented with the lyrics ,Trifles, I’m in awe.
What happened to Bewitched’s welder🧑🏭 ?
❄️ Snow is swinging eyebrow-lifting, “Voodoo” dances of both the East and West. She has no interests in politics, which would make patrons of Inn mor stoned… Sorry to adjust my self-image….
How about
And Snow is swinging voodoo dances
(Of both the East and West)
As the limerent slowlys get stoned
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness
Tasted much better than drinkin’ alone…
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
Would this still rhythm with the rest lines?
Snow, sure, that works 👍🏻
It’s best to avoid politics anyway, no matter what Dr L says. 😉
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday
And ABCD gives me a smile
‘Cause he knows that it’s DrL we’ve been comin’ to see
To forget about LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival
And the welder smells like a beer
And we sit at the bar and give a toast to LaR
And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?”
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Good vibes at the Amoors today I see!
You simply have to tell us which tune to set these above lyrics to, Trifles …
‘I can see this sung as a massive drunk roar,
As everyone staggers home across the moor,
while paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle,
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel 🎶
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)
You don’t recognize it?
https://youtu.be/gxEPV4kolz0
Just putting them together —
*******
It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday
The regular crowd shuffles in
The “old man”, Adam, sittin’ next to me
Makin’ love to his tonic and gin
…
LaR, the barmen and a friend of mine
Who’s getting me my drinks for free
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke
(“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”
As the smile ran away from his face
“We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles
I should kick you out of this place”
Now L.E. a retired, redhair submariner Who’s smooching at home with his wife And he’s talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
(“Where is my besodden welder?”) But will certainly do ok in life
And MJ is an old-hand limerent Who’s looking for a young wife And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is swinging her “voodoo” philosoical dances
(Of both the East and West)
As the limerent slowlys get stoned
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness
Tasted much better than drinkin’ alone…
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday And ABCD throws me a smile ‘Cause we’ve been comin’ to see DrL’s face on screen To forget about LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival And the welder smells like a mulled beer And we sit at the bar and give a toast to LaR And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?” Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
‘I can see this sung as a massive drunk roar,
As everyone staggers home across the moor,
while paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle,
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)
Amoor lovers, please keep adding more…
It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday
The regular crowd shuffles in
There is an “old man”, Adam, sittin’ next to me
Makin’ love to his tonic and gin
…
LaR, the barmen and a friend of mine
Who’s getting me my drinks for free
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke
(“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”
As the smile ran away from his face
“We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles
I should kick you out of this place”
Now L.E. a retired, redhair submariner
Who’s smooching at home with his wife
And he’s talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
(“Where is my besodden welder?”)
But will certainly do ok in life
And MJ is an old-hand limerent
Who’s looking for a young wife And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla
But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is swinging her “voodoo” philosoical dances
(Of both the East and West)
As the limerent slowlys get stoned
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness
Tasted much better than drinkin’ alone…
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday
And ABCD throws me a smile
‘Cause we’ve been comin’ to see DrL’s face on screen
To forget about LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival
And the welder smells like a mulled beer
And we sit at the bar and give a toast to LaR
And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?”
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
‘I can see this sung as a massive drunk roar,
As everyone staggers home across the moor,
while paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle,
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)
It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday
The regular crowd shuffles in
There is an “old man”, Adam, sittin’ next to me
Makin’ love to his tonic and gin
…
LaR, the barmen and a friend of mine
Who’s getting me my drinks for free
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke
(“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”
As the smile ran away from his face
“We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles
I should kick you out of this place”
Now L.E. a retired, redhair submariner
Who’s smooching at home with his wife
And he’s talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
(“Where is my besodden welder?”)
But will certainly do ok in life
And MJ is an old-hand limerent
Who’s looking for a young wife
And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla
But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is swinging her “voodoo” philosoical dances
(Of both the East and West)
As the limerent slowlys get stoned
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness
Tasted much better than drinkin’ alone…
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday
And ABCD throws me a smile
‘Cause we’ve been comin’ to see DrL’s face on screen
To forget about LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival
And the welder smells like a mulled beer
And we sit at the bar and give a toast to LaR
And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?”
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
‘I can see this sung as a massive drunk roar,
As everyone staggers home across the moor,
while paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle,
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)
****
Snow’s OCD is drivin’ her tone
Who’s going to take a bite of the beef trifle,
and rush to an assigned preaching outside Amoor Inn
On a sunny Saturday afternoon. 🐦🔥
Snow’s OCD is drivin’ her rambling tongue
Which will take a bite of the beef trifle
and rush to a preaching outside of Amoor Inn
On a sunny Saturday afternoon. 🐦🔥
Too funny Snow.
Thanks for thinking of me.. 🤣🤣🤣
MJ,
The entire lyric is write en by Trifles.
LaR and I just added our stances, feel free to add your own.
I don’t have red hair.
What little hair I have left is mostly grey.
LE, a retired red-hair lover…
I love it! Lol
LaR,
Aw, thanks for the verse, I’m honoured! Purposefully naive livin’ sounds good. Almost like “just keep livin'” from great Buddhist thinker McConaughey. 😉 Maybe I should patent it (along with all the bar names)…
Trifles,
🤝
I was tempted not to add anything, as Snow’s lovely interpretation says it best. But I wondered … could the dream be prompting you (by showing you your self-validation skills via this vehicle of xLO’s *of course fully justified* apology card), to think about the level of such validation you get from TO? Eg whether you could feel OK with a little less of that? Could xLO have been ‘brought back’ as a redirection of focus (onto yourself in reality, not him)?
Now that you’re an acclaimed songwriter, stranger things have happened ya know.
🚜
[Looks at where reply appeared versus scrolling intentions and prays that soon, somebody starts a new thread]
[Tells self off for looking while driving a tractor]
Now our friend Imho has strangely gone missing
And we baffle about it for awhile
But suddenly shouts Snow,
“Oh, wouldn’t you know!
Her and the welder are in the corner a-kissing!”
How did the barred welder sneak back in?!
Oh, boy! You will get bewitched jealous! No. cat fight….please.
Based in Trifles Ihmo hid him under her red dress and smuggled him in
Oi, hands-off, He’s Mine!
Imho, I seem to recall we were also in a fight for the same LO a while back (the water sports enthusiast 🤿🤣)
So I am out at a real life Christmas thing and the band really just played ‘She Bangs’ by Ricky Martin.
Weird world.
LaR,
It’s not weird, because we Lwlers 👻 👻 were with you no matter where you, only we are invisible….
Woooooooo 👻👻👻
(Even barmen get to hit the christmas spirits themselves sometimes, right?! Zeus help the plough in the morning).
🥖 Trifles’ Jingle 🎶 —
It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday
The regular crowd shuffles in
There is an “old man”, Adam, sittin’ next to me
Makin’ love to his tonic and gin
LaR, the barmen and a friend of mine
Who’s getting me my drinks for free
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke
(“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”
As the smile ran away from his face “
We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles
I should kick you out of this place”
Now L.E. a retired, redhair admirer
Who enjoys smooching at home with his wife
And he’s talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
(“Where is my besodden welder?”)
But will certainly do ok in life.
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
And MJ is an old-hand limerent
Who’s looking for a younger wife
And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla
But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is swinging her “voodoo” philosophical dances
(Of both the East and West)
As the limerents slowly get stoned
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness
Tasted much better than drinkin’ alone…
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday
And ABCD throws me a smile
‘Cause we’ve been comin’ to see DrL’s face on screen
To forget about LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival
And the welder smells like a mulled beer
And we sit at the bar and give a toast to LaR
And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?”
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
‘I can see this sung as a massive drunk roar,
As everyone staggers home across the moor,
while paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle,
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)
Snow’s OCD is drivin’ her rambling tongue
that took a greedy bite of the beef trifle
and rushed to a preaching outside of Amoor Inn
On a sunny Saturday afternoon.
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Now Red-skirted Imho has mysteriously gone missing
And we baffle about it as we aging
But suddenly shouts Snow, “Oh, wouldn’t you know!
Her and the welder are in the corner a-kissing!
And our beloved Mother Bewitched shrieked at the door,
“Oi, hands-off, He’s Mine!”
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
***
LaR, 🎶
Order to you: your sensation in your Christmas party
upon hearing “She Bangs!”….
LaR,
“So I am out at a real life Christmas thing and the band really just played ‘She Bangs’ by Ricky Martin.
Weird world.”
In Jung world, it’s called “synchronicity”! Although it happened to me many times, I still doubt it⁉️
Kids!
What happened to you😂😂
I turn my back for one Gin Tonic or two, and you suddenly go crazy, lose Imho, bring the darn welder back and invest LE with red hair.
Imho! What about your event, has it already occurred?
Maybe we can just decide that this welder has got red hair and that’s the source of all our problems?
Mila,
Without 🧑🦰 👩🦰, 🍷 🔥 how could “She Bangs⁉️ 💃💃
Trifles just can’t ban any ghost from Amoor’s door, so had Imho sneaked 🧑🦰 🧑🏭 in… Now, Bewitched is 😡
Why on LwL, you’re up at this hour? ⏰
Mila,
“I turn my back for one Gin Tonic or two, and you suddenly go crazy, lose Imho, bring the darn welder back and invest LE with red hair.“
It refers to imho’s mysterious, one-month retreat she took a while ago without even using her phone. LE has been a red-hair 👩🦰 chaser, and that 🧑🏭 just wants to get closer to Bewitched… He has tried every sneaky way to get back into Amoor Inn…
Well Miss Snowphoenix my young lady, I actually prefer gin&juice. But I do much appreciate the mention in my second favorite Billy Joel song. Its quite the truth. Now Ill just settle in with my vodka and sprite. (Dont tell Miss Lovisa though. Im not suppose to be doing this.). Where are you Momma Lovisa? (Oh no I gave myself away!) Miss Snowphoeneix you always remind me of Dana Skully in X-Files. Always level headed while Im paranoid greys are gonna abduct me.
Adam, Adam!
Trifles is the ORIGINAL lyricist of this jingle, and she sketched you and many LwLers images FIRST.
Because the stances are scattered in different posts, I just helped her compile them together (with some Lwlers’ given facts). LaR and I inserted a couple of our own lines into her genius jingle, inspired by Billy Joey.
I need to relax my mind and nerves badly, but just unwilling to touch any alcohol (I have light champagne and wine, not hard liquor), which would mess up my meditation/Qi circulation, and then perhaps give me headache the next morning.
Donna Scully? She looks really cool, though I never saw any shows of her. Do I remind you of her❓
Hope you joy on Sunday!
„ Why on LwL, you’re up at this hour? ⏰“
Very good question I ask myself now in the morning.
I had a lovely night though.
Adam,
now I have to ask, which is your first favorite Billy Joel song? „She‘s always a woman?“;)
LaR,
Frankly I’m not surprised you got assaulted by “She bangs!”. Now I would’ve been surprised if the DJ mashed it up with Hole or any other kind of grunge for that matter. Then you would’ve had to look around you… 👻
The same phenomenon happened to me after xLO revealed his favorite (slightly obscure, to me at least) artists – I began to hear them played everywhere (shops, etc).
Thank you for the rhymes (Trifle and Eiffel 🤩), they required a lot more originality than mine. As you saw, I didn’t even have to change the words much, Billy Joel already seemed to know the Inn.
Also, I’m beginning to wonder if you know what you’re doing on your farm – ploughing in December??
Adam, Mila,
My guess for Adam’s favorite is “The Longest Time”. Or “Just the Way You Are”, which is also mine (though hard to choose!), but I only found out last fall that it’s his song originally! And it pushed me down the rabbit hole into Billy Joel’s music as my LE soundtrack.
Trifles,
my Billy Joel phase was loong ago, but I also liked the songs you named, also „Honesty“, if I remember rightly. Maybe I’ll re-listen today!
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
“Order to you: your sensation in your Christmas party
upon hearing “She Bangs!”….
A gentleman never tells.
“Trifles just can’t ban any ghost from Amoor’s door”
I can though, as the licensee. The welder’s presence at Amoor’s seems associated with chaos. I’m also not sure he isn’t disrupting some of the LwL ladies’ purposeful living.
But, I am a man of my word and the punters’ friend. I said I would only bar him if Bewitched told me to. Perhaps after last night’s revelations about his behaviour, she will now pause for thought.
“Also, I’m beginning to wonder if you know what you’re doing on your farm – ploughing in December??”
I think I just got ‘doozied’.
Bewitched and Imho,
yeah, the water sports man!! I remember! I can’t quite remember why he was into water sports though.
What’s been happening you crazy lot? You are obviously all very tipsy from this multi-day partying at the Inn!
How dare you accuse me of these deeds with the welder, as if I would do such things ! 😉
Bewitched,
you are welcome to the welder, but that means water-sports LO is for me, because you can’t be greedy now. 😂
Hi Mila,
Once me and Bewitched joked if our LO was same person due to a few similarities, including their hobby of 🤽♂️🏄⛵🏊♀️
Imho,
Are you sure, I had the feeling that it had to do with some metaphor we used. Maybe I’m wrong?
Is your event still in the future? (I‘m not letting go here!😆)
OK I don’t think “Sing us a song, oh the Amoor gang” can be released for sale without a proper verse dedicated to its lyricist, so here goes:
‘Trifles – a whizz with the blowtorch -,
No puzzle’s too clever for her,
On the farm, at the inn,
Purposefully naive livin’,
And sings “wasn’t it fun to transfer?” ‘
La-Lar-La etc etc …
Imho,
I think the problem is that the weekend of partying at the inn coincided with some real parties! That or I blame the welder, as it always gets messy when he’s in town.
Mila,
Maybe Bewitched can remember.
And yes, I noticed ! I will report back, I’m working through stuff in my head first. It’s funny you and I are very different in that way. I am the tortoise you are the hare, but I hope we cross the finishing line together.
(I hope you know the fable)
Imho,
Of course I know the tale, and I know that the tortoise(s) won, so I think your way might be more effective than my spur-of-the-moment-rants.
Me, I’m back to amiable texting with my XLO, but no limerent feelings left. We‘ll see how it will go face to face next month. I hope for amiable friendly contact without me getting irked or distant again.
Funny thing is, there are two top candidates now for his position at work, and both glimmer a bit (although not enough to tempt me). Maybe it’s got something to do with this position?
Very curious how it went for you, but don’t feel obligated to report, as always!
Lim-a-Rant,
I‘m all for blaming the welder for every single thing. It has to be somebody‘s fault, all of it!
Always good to have a scapegoat.
Mila,
I think it is long past the time when he needs to go. But I’m waiting on Bewitched, as I don’t want to spoil her fun.
Lim a rant,
real Imho is late to the party, but my alter-ego created by you lot seemed to have had a wild time in that dress !
And I agree to blame literally every limerent issue on the welder ! It will become a metaphor.
Mila,
I hardly ever get glimmers or even glimmery feelings. So when it happens it’s intense. Again funny how people are different. I was always a bit shy and scared of men so I think I have my guard up more than most. Good you recognise it and indeed maybe it’s that work role/dynamic that adds some fairy dust.
Very glad you have the right balance and back on track with amiable relationship your friend, after the recent exchanges and realisations you had. Wishing it to stay that way “Tis the season to be non-irked ” 🎶 fa la la la la
(Non-irked made up word) And hopefully, maybe you can drop the LO term
Imho,
“I hardly ever get glimmers or even glimmery feelings.”
How do you explain ‘welder-gate’ then?
On more serious notes, I hope the event didn’t prove too unsettling. And I’m the same on this point – I had a solid seven years or so without a real glimmer prior to this one. But when they do hit, they hit like a welder’s blowtorch 😅
Ok maybe „glimmer“ is too strong. I would have to re-read the description of glimmer. Just being a bit attracted and interested in a certain way. It has got something to do with the work role, and also how our roles interact, but there are other men in that kind of position I don’t feel anything of that sort for.
Maybe you noticed that I write „XLO“ now, for Ex. I hope there will be no more LOs in the future for me.
Mila
I guess you are just protecting yourself with ultra caution to spot any ‘potential’ glimmers at this time.
Yes XLO term, sorry half asleep today.
We need to ask Lim- a-Rant to play this song on the jukebox “Sweet Dreams my LA ex” by Rachel Stevens… with a slight tweak to LO ex.
https://youtu.be/L3fD02UM-WU?si=E610BfflyUU0p0bJ
😂🤣 😂🤣 😂🤣 The Gang is here with the missed 💃
About the title, “The Amoor Gang Bangs” ?
Chorus 🎶:
It’s fun, it’s darlin’ to transfer
LO to TO, and TO to LO,
And Merry go ‘round
Purposefully Naive Livin’
In sparkly splashing Amoor Inn
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Oh dear Imho, are you trying to take the heat off by putting another massively glimmery celebrity in front of me in that video?!
At the Amoor’s, my permission is not needed for music. The jukebox will play what you all want it to play. Keep the cash going in, and keep the links to tunes coming!
LaR and all,
Please feel free to eject the welder. We dont need to keep him.on my behalf, he was only ever the better option between a welder and a lawyer (LE started it!).
I am consigned to only ever be attracted to the quiet bookish types, and feminists. And I don’t think the welder is that!
There is a lot of jollity here in recent days. Our playful sides coming out as we all prepare for what holidays will bring…. Like you, LaR, I am nervous too. Hard to explain in public.
You asked for tips a few days back. My tip wont suit you. But I always convince myself he doesnt care about me at Christmas, which stops me contacting him. He reaches out to groups of us at work sometimes more than once, and it drives me bananas to not reply….
Working certain assumptions (whether true or not) helps me.
Bewitched,
I don’t think I can eject him. L.E. has just breathed new life into him. I sense he will be around a long while.
Variations of your tip might work for me – not quite in the same way but maybe I can bend it somehow. What are you feeling nervous about? Or would you rather not say?
*Sigh* Please tell me I am not the one chosen to explain gang bangs to Snow (as a non-native)?
Hi LaR,
“What are you feeling nervous about? Or would you rather not say”
Thank you for asking, it is kind of you.
I think that the reason that I am nervous is not wanting to disappoint or hurt him. I do have a bit of a saviour complex with regard to him. So that part of my reason is more concern than limerence, I think. I do such a good job at convincing myself of things to cure me but its also got to not turn me into a cold robotic colleague (I always try to encourage him as much as I can without encroaching). I always thought of him as vulnerable. Its silly, he is ten years older, and accomplished in some ways, but, vulnerable too, I think. And Christmas is important to him (I divine this for a few reasons, some including things that happened during the playing out of “our situation” when all the drama unfolded. I hesitate to say “our” anything, what I mean is more toned down than that). Of course, the second I go down this train of thought, the next thought is “stop making yourself out to be more important that you are, Bewitched”.
It is also a tough time of year, generally, I think Dr L had a good blog about it this time last year, or maybe it was the year before last (you see what an old hand I am on here). Its a time for thinking about who is important in one’s life, even if that time of life when they were more central in importance has passed.
I guess, even a recovering limerent feels those memories at certain times of year, and it may not even be Christmas (tho’ some of our stuff was bound up in this season).
And I think I also feel guilty because Christmas is time for my LO and my child. Not for LO, or memories of when I had lost my mind over LO, or times when I needed to fight so hard to not reach out to him.
Sorry I am probably not making much sense.
I’ll bet you the next round that Snow already knew 😉
Sorry I meant my SO and my child. Not LO (I am typing in a busy place with some very hyper young boys running around me).
LaR, Sounds like one more mulled wine for me…
Trifles, LaR,
I’m non-native,
I am naive
My innocent eye sees the Gang Banging in fire🔥
If that lawyer comes closer to charge me
I’ll kick his brief motion with my 👠👠
Trifles,
Before I stick my hand in my pocket to keep your glass topped up, do we actually have our answer??
To keep you going while we wait:
“Sing us a song, oh the Amoor Gang,
Purposeful living for life,
One more drink before we go,
To stop that text to LO,
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes”
LaR, Bewitched,
You need to somehow tie 🤚 ✋ of an Amazon Warrior (but leaving her 👠👠 and tails 🐦🔥 alone) before the New Year, so she cannot text holiday greetings to the Mars…. 😨🫦
Snow,
For once in my life, I can keep a reply simple. I will harness my inner DrL / L.E. and start by asking “What’s your ideal outcome?”
Right, for now, please sort this out, as my glass is empty and Trifles may need to buy me a drink – did you know the ‘naughty’ meaning of “Gang Bang” when you proposed the song title earlier??
Bewitched,
Seen your message and thank you – hope it felt cathartic to share a little. I will reply later.
LaR,
Inspire and fanfare my inner creative 🔥 and keep 🐦🔥 live. As the best monologuer around, I no longer need any reply, just sending a signal to the non-echoing Galaxy.
I hope you understand why it’s almost impossible to de-mask the Phantom fed exclusively by my own Apollo…
But your ghosts’ echoing and “imagined nasty” memories have been helping de-masking… Time will have its last chuckle…
Agape 💕 to you all….
LaR,
To briefly reply your long message of the other day (did not forget) — there is a portion of 🐦🔥 with my realistic face in the mask; so if I cut the mask off by force from my Phantom, a part of ❄️ 🐦🔥 would be gone with galaxy dusts…
Gang Bang — orgies❓
Isn’t it what shows in Ricky Martin’s video “She Bangs”❓
✅️
🍺
Snow,
“I hope you understand why it’s almost impossible to de-mask the Phantom fed exclusively by my own Apollo…”
Yes, I completely do. Let me check something. You said before that you reclaimed the phantom into yourself several months (maybe a year) before your farewell with 👽
Have you rethought that now, or is the mask more ‘legacy’?
I don’t think I do really yet understand the 🐦🔥 — Phantom similarities and differences. It may be stuff you covered properly on LwL before I came here.
I am not pressurising you to explain this or anything – and I say this is full knowledge that we are in an open public space, not the Amoor’s Inn with a guest list and a reliable welder acting as doorman. Please only do say more if you think me understanding is necessary for me to have useful ongoing input on that side of our dialogues. I don’t want to be triggering here, either.
It is (obviously) more important that *you* understand these things. But you’ve said a few times that I have supplied helpful prompts to you. So that’s the kind of angle I mean where I’d maybe need more to be in a good position to continue that.
Bewitched,
Thanks for giving a better understanding. I get more why it’s difficult for a combo of reasons.
Let me first say a couple of things based purely on what I know of you from LwL. First, I don’t ever imagine you coming across as a cold-hearted colleague. So even if you might feel you’re being like that, you’re probably not in others’ eyes.
Second, even though it might feel difficult to focus on family and keep LO out of your head, I’d have every confidence that you are in a better position to do that than a year ago, and double that going back to two years ago. Try and celebrate these successes.
This one is out of Snow’s recipe book, but any attempt to push LO away from your mind too hard will backfire and have the reverse effect. Better to let him have a little room and watch him come and go. He may come and go quicker then.
Lastly, I wonder how much you think you are now in a position to have a little contact over the holidays without it now ramping the limerence back up? I don’t wish to seem enabling here – just to encourage you to think yes/no on that. You will have a good instinct for the answer, either way. I would also change my idea if contact with him equates to doing work over your holidays!
I hope you’ve got some good stuff planned as a family as that should also keep your mind off the situation. Do swing by and spout to us if you need to (we have beef trifle and vanilla butter cookies going). I fully expect I’ll have to, to keep accountable.
LaR,
Yes, I reclaimed (to 👽’s face on 4/14/2023) the phantom that was dominantly a PARENTAL figure 3 months before I even found LwL. But later, I felt and learned the Phantom had not just healing power (Asclepius), but also a muse/Apollo’s lyre. .
Even before 2023, monologuing had become a habit and the necessary healing method (no therapist or LwL). Afterwards, it remained an addiction or a fuel for 🐦🔥 writing of all kinds: journalistic, collage, reflective, and creative, even after landing in LwL and 👋 to 👽…. We all know well what “relapse” means in this town, don’t we?
But in fact, 🐦🔥 was NOT monologuing to 👽, to Her Self and always got freshly inspired, or recharged with nothing happening in reality. It’s probably the worst LE to deal with — no longer the need for any reciprocation, it faces a black-hole…
If 🐦🔥 monologuing in the past has aimed at healing with one 👂 , now it is prompted rambling in Amoor Inn and across LwL; it needs to be focused on purposefully creative writing, independent from healing (which nonetheless would naturally take place during any kind of scribbling).
Unlike most of you guys here concerning about texting to and receiving from LO, the mere click my button to the “blackhole” gratifies me. I need to stop this itchy hand, urged by my own kind of rescuing fantasy….
It will be the first huge cut… ✂️
Snow,
I often wonder what I could achieve with my time if I didn’t write so much on LwL! Do you feel like that?
But when I reflect, being on LwL is allowing me to (without forcing it) deal with parts of my LE, here in this space, through writing it out and talking to others who get it. This means I don’t act it out so much in the real space, where it would be more harmful to act it out.
I am also dimly aware that ‘to think less about limerence, I need to think less about limerence’, and that would involve cutting LwL down to make time for other pursuits. I’m not sure in your last message if you mean you feel you need to do that too, or that being here is proving helpful.
This isn’t me setting up for any goodbyes, by the way! At the moment, I need LwL. I like our detailed chats and am also really enjoying the fun side of this community like we’ve had this weekend. I am thinking further ahead when I think about cutting it down.
On another LwL politics note, kudos for how you ended things with Sammy. I can see how the two of you learned a lot from each other even though it wasn’t easy. I hope he swings back through town occasionally too. Though L.E’s suggestion of the two
of you under one roof did make me 😬 a bit.
Dear LaR,
Thanks for your great reply. You are actually right – on all fronts. I am rarely cold, my version is probably warm by most standards.
And I *am* so much better off than this time last year. When I found it hard to be present for my family and I fought demons all thro the holidays (but maintained NC over Christmas, of which I can be proud of myself because by jolly it was hard not to reply as he sent his group messages).
Now that I am in recovery, a short message to him wouldnt be the end of the world. It might set my mind at ease and it wouldnt set me back, I don’t think, as I am too far along the road for that. I hate to think of him suffering (have to convince myself that he is not) as I am not sure how many friends he has. I dont want him to feel rejected. I know is is not my problem and I dont know why i still feel so tender towards him when my limerence is done.
So you see, you were right on all fronts.
Thanks Mr! You helped a lot there – I needed that reality check.
Now, in the interests of lightening the mood, I just saw up this thread that Snow referred to the trooobadore of our Amoor Inn ditty as “Billy Joey” 🤣 . Its only a small typo but it made me laugh.
Snow, you are very funny sometimes. And I find it so sweet how you are trying to ‘get’ us westerners and our crazy culture. Pleasant dreams tonight, my dear, I dont follow it all in your monologues but there are some gems in there alright.
Hi Bewitched,
since we are in a similar state of non-limerence, I can tell you that for me it feels even more non-limerent to be in a normal, benevolent relationship to XLO than to be NC or hold myself back from texting.
So I think that a normal Christmas message is ok and even a good sign, as long as you don’t think too much of and about it!
Speaking of dreams – I dreamt of xLO for the second time ever last night (that I recall). It was just me receiving a message from him. I think it was in the form of a red Christmas card and I may have even seen his hands handing it to me. In the message he basically said he didn’t know what he was thinking before and he would very much like to be in contact with me, because of how great I am, or something like that. I just remember being pleased (and kind of “I told you so!”).
It probably came about from being on LwL too much this weekend and reading about Mila’s text saga. I don’t know what to make of it though… Why do I still need his validation in my dream?
LaR, 🍻🏆
Trifles,
Your dream is your Self — the Unconscious, validating Yourself! It’s no one else’s talking, it is Your Self telling you how greet You Are and how wrong your xLO is!
Trust me on this, you’ve begun your self-validating process! Keep hanging here in LwL, more dreams like this would come!
❄️
Oh that’s a lovely interpretation, Snow! And makes sense. I will have to believe it.
LaR,
“I often wonder what I could achieve with my time if I didn’t write so much on LwL! Do you feel like that?”
Yes, I do. I get an audience (never expected) and immediate responses, relevant or irrelevant to my own case. While replying (out of my choice), I learn and validate myself more — I don’t write tuff that I don’t truly believe/think/feel, creative jokes aside — also releasing another part of my SELF.
IMO, LwL is the best place to practice affirming and validating one’s Self (not at the beginning when I just found it). It will force us to grow thicker/Stoic skin. Along the way, we might incidentally help someone’s blurred vision, which would gratify our mind/soul in return. I spent more time than my work, reading, and other stuff, but I’ve made sure my rambling are not just chitchats — their content has to benefit my mind/spirit in someway first.
“This means I don’t act it out so much in the real space, where it would be more harmful to act it out.”
Yes, in your case, there could be harms to others if you act out, not in my case. If I act out, it would isolate only me from my reality — living in my head or monologuing to a Blackhole, which still inspires creativity w/o an aim.
“I am also dimly aware that ‘to think less about limerence, I need to think less about limerence’, and that would involve cutting LwL down to make time for other pursuits. I’m not sure in your last message if you mean you feel you need to do that too, or that being here is proving helpful.”
Being here is proving helpful to me. I think less about my LE/👽 when I ramble here; because my aims have been sideways making “ghosts/soul” friends/enemies here, learning about Limerence, the Western culture and more my inner self. Where else do I get “authentic” samples of some Western mind in real time?? Fictions are just some authors’ interpretations of life recollected, more artistic fabrication! Here has more realistic inner pains or joys of human beings.
I mentioned to Marcia once that the only superpower I wished in teenage to have was Invisibility so I get to know what’s going on in others’ heads. My curiosity (Granny’s gene) is my biggest part in IFS’s SELF. Can’t believe I’ve reached that goal here 75%, Except I don’t know anyone’s face/fleshy form as a whole human being.
“ I am thinking further ahead when I think about cutting it down.”
I didn’t hint at all that I’d be cutting down time here. I’ve benefiting from it beyond my expectations. I just wish there are 36 hours per day, I can’t finish my daily plans — workout, piano practice, more readings, etc. But I don’t feel addicted to LwL, either. Intuitive, sensuous knowledge and connection (or disconnection) with any “ghosts” here are still missing — I can’t see naked 👀 but can feel spirits, without scientific data.
“On another LwL politics note, kudos for how you ended things with Sammy. I can see how the two of you learned a lot from each other even though it wasn’t easy. “
He’s intellectually insightful (a bit too theoretical in my 👀 ) in his understandings of LE and can put them down in sophisticated, creative, or comical words. I’ve indeed learned a great deal by encountering him. However, his quick/irrational temperament, even comprehensible, is just about impossible for me to stomach. His views towards women and the world (due to his mother or whoever) is unacceptable, which would only hurt himself down his path, not anyone else.
“I hope he swings back through town occasionally too. Though L.E’s suggestion of the two of you under one roof did make me 😬 a bit.”
We don’t know at any given moment who is ghostly watching over this town. LE has lost his mind in chasing all red-hair 👩🦰.
Hi Trifles,
I like Snows interpretation a lot, and also it might just have been a play of your brain on our messages to LaR about handling texting, a ghostlike memory of times when you would have liked validation like that from your xLO.
Nothing to worry about.
🧖♀️ Bewitched,
You wished me a good dream yesterday, and see what I got! My dreams can’t be willed/wished not only by my own LE brain, but also not others.
Trust me, have no regret to return Welder to LE, his lips tasted awful! 🤢 Why did I get him twice in my dreams in the form of 👽, while he’s supposed to be with you after hiding under imho’s red dress and sneaking back to Amoor Inn?
Let’s hammering LE’s 🧑🏭 🔨🔨 together! 😠 Can someone give him a decent bath? 🛀
Yeah, I know how that is. My LO keeps forgetting to respond to me, so I keep thinking, why bother texting? I read online how a lack of texting means someone doesn’t actually care about/think about you, but then I’ll see LO again and he’s very warm to me.
Maybe it’s a generational thing—I’ve never been much of a texter, myself. Messages on online forums or social media, sure, and e-mails, but not texting. Even with messages, it’s every now and then, not every day. And guys are so bad about responding to e-mails. You write a few pages and they respond with a few sentences, lol. But then LO or a guy friend will see me in person and respond to the e-mail that way, or on the phone.
Recently I was miffed at LO’s lack of responses, so I held off for an entire week. Then he texted ME first on Thanksgiving, and came to me the following Sunday for a conversation. Maybe texting is more a gauge of the relationship with younger generations, not us older ones who didn’t grow up with it. 🙂
There’s definitely a difference between generations, but also simply between people. Since I‘m somehow irked by unread texts and emails (they sit there like unfinished business)I read and respond quickly. Other people are not bothered by that, or might enjoy saving them for later (which might be even a sign that they cherish them), or they simply don’t look at their phone often.
I think everyone has a pattern and it doesn’t necessarily mean anything about the depth of relationship, if real life interaction is warm.
Hi LaR. Just saw your post.
To start off, texting had been a huge issue with LO and I. Boy, the feeling I got when I got a like or response to my text, it was a great high, like walking on air. But, of course, there is always the other side – when there is no response, the familiar low feeling.
Now, moving on how I dealt with the texting situation –
[1] I put the texts on archive and mute. That way, they did not pop up on my phone.
[2] From time to time, I kept on deleting the chat history, so that I would not go back to reading old messages for validation.
[3] When I texted, I stopped “seeking” LO response, as in, I did not check whether she responded or not. I found out that if I could hold out for a full day, I felt better even if I checked later and saw no response.
[4] Later on, I tried reducing my frequency of sending texts gradually. Just a way of not seeking LO.
We have not texted for a long time now, so this mode of communication is no longer a problem for me now. Social media, that’s another story.
Hope this helps.
Hi ABCD,
Thanks for your reply on the texting point. My situation is a bit different in that I don’t want to cut it out but just get myself into a mindset where the gaps between texts can be reasonable without my brain over-interpreting it, and also to not rely too much on texting with her for validation and dopamine hits over the holidays. I have to cut from a pretty steady dopamine drip (which has regulated it out a fair bit, neither none nor too much) to probably just text crumbs for a while. So I am trying to get into a mindset where I don’t let it bother me too much – calmly think “I’ll just see her in a few weeks”, as Snow put it to me.
I wanted to share something else I’ve been working on, as I wondered if it might help you. Whether I have said it you before I can’t remember. When interactions tilt colder and warmer now, I have trained myself (mostly, with wobbles) out of blaming that on anything I’ve done. More nowadays just “oh well, that’s the mood of the day” than “I have done something wrong, she now hates me” or “she has clearly loved me all along”.
The extremes sound so illogical when I write them out like that, don’t they? Compared at least to “that’s just the natural undulations of the other person’s mood showing up”. But in my experience the lim-brain takes a long time to get there, and resists for all it is worth. I think it is because letting go of the hot-cold cycles equals cutting down on the intermittent rewards element. Limerence grasps onto those so hard to keep the flame burning. I haven’t got this down to a perfect art, but can feel improvement.
Thanks for your response, LaR.
I understood your texting situation. Yes, since you will be seeing LO anyways soon, you can tell yourself that this hiatus is just temporary.
For me, I do not see LO much now, and interactions are also much lower. Overall, this reduced contact has helped me in my recovery.
The one pending challenge is to manage the occasional interaction, whenever it occurs.
Your technique of not blaming myself sounds good. Actually, I have been trying it out. So if an interaction does not go well, I can tell myself – that’s fine, this is how LO is behaving, its not on me, I was expecting it, I may feel a little low, and then chin up and move on.
As I note, life in general, and not just LE, is full of ups and downs, which need to be navigated.
Cheers.
I just had a former employee that I worked with that left back in Jan 2023 tell me something surprising. He ran into another former employee that worked where LO did and apparently LO is engaged to the man she is with now. The older gentleman she met at whatever point. I also found out that the “man” she was with when she left the job apparently cheated on her. This woman can’t catch a break. Hopefully this guy is good to her and her daughter.
I am a mix of happy for her and an amount of overthinking foreboding. I am trying to let the happy win and hope that she is finally with a man that will treat her right. And it is a good thing for me too. I can stop worrying.
Don’t do it Adam! It’s not going to help any! Stay away from there!
Adam,
It’s all beyond your control, please let it ALL go….
Remember: turn within our Self to save our Selves first!!!
Adam,
yes, chances are good that it‘s a good thing for her, that she‘s got someone who cares for her and they can be a family. Maybe just be happy for her and stop worrying, as you say! There’s nothing for you to do there anymore!
I send you lots of encouraging thoughts and a hug.
Adam, easier said than done but when you find yourself concerned about what kind of man your LO has, here is something to think about:
Whenever you ruminate about LO, focus on her, or give her your attention and resources, you rob your wife of the man SHE needs and you promised to be. You’re also on your way to becoming the type of guy you don’t want for LO. Put your energy into being that man for wife.
“This woman can’t catch a break. Hopefully this guy is good to her and her daughter.”
That’s what I thought about LO #2 until I came to the realization that people aren’t who they are because of the relationships they have, they have the relationships they have because of who they are. LO #2’s relationship template was set long before I met her. It’s pure speculation but IMO, LO #2’s world view was influenced by her mother who taught her that all men are cheating bastards and LO #2 sought out relationships that reinforced that world view. She was quite successful at it. I didn’t cheat on her and we know how that turned out.
I had reversed cause and effect. Once I got those straight, a lot of things began to make sense. I posted that on LO #4’s site and she thought it was profound. LO #4 also told me later that it was what opened her eyes to what was going on in her relationship.
Once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern. If she’s consistently not catching breaks, there’s a reason.
Song of the Post: “Emotional Rescue” – The Rolling Stones (1980)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDiYf5FZybg
Leave the fine Arab charger in the barn.
“People aren’t who they are because of the relationships they have, they have the relationships they have because of who they are.”
Excellent insight here LE.
I really like this. It answers a huge question/issue I’ve recently discovered about my Lady Friend..
Thanks all for the very candid and blunt responses. Ya’ll are absolutely right. The problem is with the last two updates I have heard in her life, I did not ask for, I did not seek out. They were told to me. I am trying to do everything right I need to be doing. I have maintained NC for almost 3 years now. I don’t check her social media. I am trying to live purposefully and get back present in my marriage. But people keep throwing her in my face and it’s getting really damn frustrating.
That post of mine shouldn’t exist. I shouldn’t let what I was told get that far in my head. I will own that. But if I had never been told that I wouldn’t be here making that post. Or this one. It’s like being sober and someone spiking your drink without telling you, you drink it and now your are back at square one with sobriety. I really do want to be done with this. I don’t like being like this.
L.E. as always the sensible one. I guess the fact that I assume it is always the other guy without burdening her with some responsibility in the relationship is unfair to the other person. And a bias that is holding me back. And I don’t mean that just in limerence, but for me with women in relationships in general.
Better to post and get it out. No it’s not fair when you get reminded through no fault of your own. I’m sorry if I seemed harsh above. Just trying to remind you that worrying if LO has a good man takes energy away from your wife and your life. It’s a useless pursuit. You are doing the right things.
I agree with Distant Observer! You done no wrong. You are “living with limerence” – so you have every right (and it is healthy) to let it out here among strangers who understand. Goodness knows that is why most people are posting here, and isn’t that the truth.
Sigh…
I’ve brought this up before but with DrL going public and expanding the brand, I think it’s time to revisit the idea.
Since “The Welder” has now assumed a life of his own, I think he should be the protagonist in a line of LwL “bodice-ripper” romance novels. “The Welder” can be the LO of women from soccer moms to corporate executives from across the globe!
“Limerence under the Bleachers” – A married woman goes headlong into an LE with The Welder when she sees him repairing a cracked beam on the bleachers at her son’s school when dropping him off at practice.
“Limerence on the Hydraulic Lift” – A single owner of an auto shop goes down the rabbit hole when The Welder shows up to weld a crack in the hydraulic auto lift.
Maybe we can get Fabio for the covers.
As the creator of “The Welder,” I expect 20%.
Excellent! We can also use the lawyer as the evil counterpart who smarmily tries to steal the woman‘s heart until defeated by the torch-wielding welder.
At Christmas time I recommend some cosy stuff with ,of course, mulled wine that impairs the decision-making of the single mum who desperately need her Christmas tree stand (holder?)welded by capable hands.
“Seriously lady…you wanna pay me $125 to weld a Xmas tree stand you can replace at Walmart for $10?”
“Ugh…yeah…it’s a family heirloom…that’s it…a family heirloom. Been in the family for 100 years.”
“It says ‘Made in China.’ I’m pretty sure the Chinese weren’t importing Xmas tree stands in 1920.”
“Fine. $200. Will you do it or not?”
This has to be, in different ways, my favourite Coffeehouse ever.
20% is more than reasonable but I want a cut somewhere too for how he torched my bar and tarnished its reputation by leading its female patrons astray. I’ll get the lawyer onto it.
LwL fan fiction!
I petition DrL to open a coffee house under that title!
How could that possibly go wrong..?
DrL probably won’t want me around much longer after I parked a rival bar on his Coffeehouse’s turf.
I realised I was wrong earlier to say I was licensee. He is licensee. I just do as I’m told.
LaR,
At a corner of DrL’s Coffee House, you just sneaked a bar with a Banner “Amoor Inn”, that is gradually taking more tables of the House.
LE,
If that lawyer come in, I’ll serve a flamed cocktail to burn his limping brief-case… 🔥
Imho,
I like the energetic song you linked, that’s the way to go for EX!
That’s it Snow. One door leads from the coffeehouse, through a passage to a previously unused back room, now the Inn. But it also has patio doors out onto the moor at the other side (the side the welder had his blowtorch moment with).
Or “LwL magic transferring Corner/Center? ”, that has been certainly working for me…
Had a terrible dream but perhaps needed in the subconscious level—
Sitting on my current coach, Mom was cynically criticizing me again, just as she habitually countless times did in my life. So I jumped on her, pressed my both hands on her face/forehead, trying so hard to flatten it with a mighty force…. It began to flatten, then I woke up….
Then helpless laughter 😂 after coming to Amoor Inn, that’s the Spirit I was expecting!!! 💃
Yes, the inn on the back of the Coffee House with a previous unused door to the Moor.
There was a wooden shed outside Coffee House, where a ploughing machine is resting… and Welder often hid inside with food and water LE sneaked to him, peeking at our Inn, at our dashing Bewitched and Imho…
And yet the title is Demoralization and Despair, lol! I open my ipad today and find all this! 🙂
SL,
Maybe it’s our limerents’ collective, subconscious goal to beat the spirit of “demoralization and despair”…. Without head-over-heel laughters,🤣😂 how could it be ever possible?
Conversely where is my Lifetime movie about the woman that wants to mother and rescue said man unsure that his issues are worth a woman’s attentions? And I’d prefer that I would get mother’d by Gillian Anderson or Allison Hannigan tyvm. Or the mother from Gilmore Girls that I would watch with Momma.
I watched Gilmore Girls whole series… to see what a good American mother would be like..
By comparison, I feel my Mom is like that evil queen in “Snow White” — thus a part of my pen name…
Adam,
I was thinking of having you as one of the participants in the premiere of DrL’s “Limerent Rehab.”
Based on Dr. Drew’s “Celebrity Rehab” show, DrL would supervise a mixed group of current and former limerents sequestered in a beach house.
I was thinking of Adam, Snow, Sammy, and Marcia as 4. We need 4 more.
LE,
❄️ can be trusted in dealing with bottles… but not sure about 🦚’s👖…. 🥰
Snow, Sammy and Marcia locked up together? Now that would be explosive!
That’s LE’s idea, not mine. He’s trying to lock poor Adam with three archetype ghosts silent to each other…❓
Ask LE if what’s cooking in his maddening red-hair chasing⁉️
Awhile back, I proposed “Dancing with the Limerents.”
Marcia was Carrie Ann Annaba. I see Sammy as Bruno. We need another judge.
I want Jaideux as cohost.
It’s okay Snowphoenix, as an ISFJ it is perfectly normal for me to want to keep the peace and harmony. So I wouldn’t mind being “thrown to the wolves” as long as it all works out in the end. Sammy maybe a wild card I might not be able to handle though. I tend to not negotiate as well with men as I can with women.
Snow
Eliza Cook
1818 –1889
Brave Winter and I shall ever agree,
Though a stern and frowning gaffer is he.
I like to hear him, with hail and rain,
Come tapping against the window pane;
I joy to see him come marching forth
Begirt with the icicle gems of the north;
But I like him best when he comes bedight
In his velvet robes of stainless white.
A cheer for the snow—the drifting snow!
Smoother and purer than beauty’s brow!
The creature of thought scarce likes to tread
On the delicate carpet so richly spread.
With feathery wreaths the forest is bound,
And the hills are with glittering diadems crown’d;
’Tis the fairest scene we can have below.
Sing, welcome, then, to the drifting snow!
The urchins gaze with eloquent eye
To see the flakes go dancing by.
In the thick of the storm how happy are they
To welcome the first deep snowy day;
Shouting and pelting—what bliss to fall
Half-smother’d beneath the well-aim’d ball!
Men of fourscore, did ye ever know
Such sport as ye had in the drifting snow?
I’m true to my theme, for I loved it well.
When the gossiping nurse would sit and tell
The tale of the geese—though hardly believed—
I doubted and question’d the words that deceived.
I rejoice in it still, and love to see
The ermine mantle on tower and tree.
’Tis the fairest scene we can have below.
Hurrah! then, hurrah! for the drifting snow!
******
This ❄️ is bouncy, swirling, frantic in its enlivened season… Should SHE drift, tumbling roll, or willfully roar charged by her torched tail ❓🐦🔥
DrL,
Is it possible for us to have a blog next week (before New Year) named, “Holiday Inn (in the land of LwL” — with John Hurt’s voice for the Dragon in “Merlin”)? 🏨
and all ghosts of shapes and colors (like in the “Star War”) are welcome to voice anything they like?
Hello all.
Thought this would be a good time for an update.
In general, my recovery process is going well.
Had a bit of a setback recently – bumped into a social media post of LO, and this lead to feeling low. Guess it just acted as a trigger.
I have come to realise that such sporadic episodes can and will happen to me, whether physically or virtually.
So, I need accept that this is how I felt due to the trigger, and to not encourage the feeling much, and to not allow LO much headspace.
I really do not want to fall back into my old patterns of over analysis, excess rumination. Do not want to undo all the hard work done in terms of getting out of the LE rabbit hole.
Any advice on how to navigate these LO triggers would be really appreciated.
Hi ABCD,
I say just get the hell off social media.
This way you can’t accidentally bump into something if you don’t have it. There are plenty of other internet goodies to feast your brain upon besides social media.
Personally I’ve never understood the whole Facebook phenomenon. My ex was the classic example of what I considered lame and pointless, when I would see her ramblings. Feel good quotes, dedication pages, advertising for her friends, whatever average middle-aged women get into. Just a whole lot of nothing..
I know there are ways to still access certain pages, even if you are not an active member on one of the Big 3, but you are probably less likely to go there if you’re not active. I could look up LO if I wanted to but I don’t. Only way I might see her online is if she’s mentioned or featured on our Company’s website. I really don’t get on there all that much..
Thanks, MJ.
I am an avid social media user, at-least for my professional updates. I have the option to mute notifications, so I have gone ahead and done that. I have found this is a good way.
I am also trying to put bulk updates, so that my visit frequency goes down.
After years of being on various forums and chat rooms where they were strangers becoming friends, it was fun for me to finally find all the people I already knew at some point in real life in one place where we could chat virtually, too. 🙂 I moved away from my home state decades ago, so it’s a good way to keep up with family and old friends/classmates. Also church/club updates, etc. And unfortunately, lately it’s also the best place to get information about what’s going on in town, since the newspaper has barely anything in it anymore! But while I used to be on it all the time, these days it’s mostly something I check every few days or so. Sometimes I also see it as a way to think of people other than my LO. 😉
SL,
I know that internet strangers could become realistic friends if their communications are long-term, authentic, organic enough. Still, people are very different in integrating knowledge of their body (senses/intuition/instinctual) and mind (intellectual/contrived words/imagination). I envision three scenarios when two/more friends finally meet after a substantial communication online w/o photos:
1. They instantly feel comfortable, since they’ve already known each other online for a long while.
2. They have some troubles to match virtual writers to actual speakers, but intellectually accept the two are the same person. It may take a little bit time, hours or days, for two sides to feel comfortable being with each other.
3. One or both sides unshakably feel the other side is an “alien”, they must have talked with someone else online before their first meetup.
With my seven times of realistically meeting online “pals” 3 for dating), I fell in the 3rd scenarios; and the other side did not feel the same, or in much less degree. I only blamed my oddity— abnormal sensitivity, or a possibility that my mind and body was unable to integrate knowledge they had obtained, respectively; or my imagination of other side based on their written words just fell off the chart of common senses.
Unless it’s a long-distance friend, I don’t like online communication; typing takes a lot of time without spontaneity or instant feedback. With local friends, I’d just go for coffee/lunch or evening dinner/chats for hours. I like feeling people, even if they’re not close.
It’s really good to have virtual friends in reality as well.
ABCD,
“So, I need accept that this is how I felt due to the trigger, and to not encourage the feeling much, and to not allow LO much headspace.“
My old nagging: every time you say “not want” or “now allow”, your unconscious will work against your wish and will.
Yes, you MUST accept how you would/will feel when that such a trigger or another type happens again and again, but its degree will reduce each time if you prepare and even wait for its coming/occurrence.
Then, when a trigger arrives, GIVE it some “headspace” without getting upset but with ease, saying to yourself, “Aha, I know you’d come! Come in and sit with me!”.
Then stay with/focus on that feeling, the pain. If you stay there long enough (how long? Various with different person), without trying to push it away or run away yourself, it will GO AWAY on its own.
Why can’t you get 🐦🔥’s repeated chirping, ABCD 🔨 ❓ This is my last time nagging you!
Best wishes! 🤝
Thanks for the tips, Snow! I will try them out and let you know how it goes.
I am feeling better already, so the low feeling was much more manageable than before. A good sign.
Hi ABCD,
social media is a tough one . But it can serve in two directions- like MJ said, people can reveal their stupid or trivial sides that were hidden until then.
Me, I refuse to forbid myself social media just because of LOs. I enjoy them and don’t want them to spoil it for me. But I was lucky in always having LOs who didn’t post much.
Maybe just let the trigger happen, accept it like an old hand- „ah, that was bound to happen, and will pass soon“?
Because it will.
Thanks, Mila.
I am in your boat. I want to still use social media. As I mentioned to MJ, I am trying some tricks, like muting notifications and reducing my visit frequency. These will help.
Actually, I am feeling much better now, and happy to note that the low feeling was much milder.
Amoor Inn Bangs!
It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday
The regular crowd shuffles in
There is an “old man”, Adam, sittin’ next to me
Makin’ love to his tonic and gin
LaR, the barmen and a friend of mine
Who’s getting me my drinks for free
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke
(“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”
As the smile ran away from his face”
We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles
I should kick you out of this place”
Now L.E. a retired, redhair-fetish chaser
Who enjoys smooching at home with his wife
And he’s talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
(“Where is my besodden welder?”)
But will certainly do ok in life
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
And MJ is an old-hand limerent
Who’s looking for a younger wife
And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla
But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is swinging her “voodoo” philosophical dances
(Of both the East and West)
As the limerents slowly get stoned
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness
But it’s much better than drinkin’ alone
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday
And ABCD throws me a smile
‘Cause we’ve been comin’ to see DrL’s face on screen
To forget about LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival
And the welder smells like a mulled beer
And we sit at the bar and give a toast to LaR
And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?”
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
I see this sung as a massive drunk roar
As everyone staggers home across the moor
while paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)
Snow’s OCD is drivin’ her rambling tongue
that took a huge, greedy bite of the beef trifle
and rushed to a preaching outside of Amoor Inn
On a sunny Saturday afternoon
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Now Red-skirted Imho has mysteriously gone missing
And we baffle about it as we aging
But suddenly shouts Snow, “Oh, wouldn’t you know!
She and the welder are in the corner a-kissing!”
And our beloved Bewitched shrieked at the door
“Oi, hands-off, He’s Mine!”
Now, Mila is back to amiable texting with her xLO
But she has no limerent aching left
And we‘ll see how it would go face to face after a winter’s Moon
Hope for amiable, friendly contact without
Getting irked or distant again
‘round and ‘round at noon
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
‘Trifles – a whizz with the blowtorch -
No puzzle’s too clever for her
On the farm, at the inn
Purposefully naive livin’
And sings “wasn’t it fun to transfer?”
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Snow is a non-native, fire bird from the Fast East sky
And culturally ignorant and naive
She had no clue how the bang of her black hair
has anything to do with “She Bangs”
But her innocent eyes catches the Gang of Amoor banging on fire
And her red heels kickin’ the lawyer’ brief-case in dare
Sing us a song, oh the Amoor Gang,
Purposeful livin’ for life, Here and Now
One more drink before we go
To stop that text to LO
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes
After the Dawn
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Chorus 🎶
It’s fun
it’s lovin’ to transfer old LO to TO
and then TO to new LO
round and ‘round the Moon
Purposefully Naive Livin’
In sparkly splashing Amoor Inn
Stop clicking that green button
To send LO our LE oozed, doozy vibration
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
*****
Dr L: please don’t shout/pluck my red feather…. 🐦🔥
The Amoor Inn has extended its daytime hours! 💃
There will be smoothies, have some to cleanse the swirling head of last night….
Please add more stances to Trifle’s original 🎶
Snow,
I thought the coffeehouse (Amoor’s gang ramble) was closed? Did you somehow negotiate a license extension with Dr L?
What’s the smoothie of the day?
I certainly chirped hard to DrL’s ears… 🐤
Ask Trifles for smoothies…. she’s the expert!
I guess Dr L is scared we mess up all other blog posts with our drunken ramblings until he can open a new coffeehouse;)
Coffeehouse: Demoralisation and despair.
Amoor’s Inn: Mila’s magic mulled and musical mood repair.
DrL,
Thanks for reopening it for us bunch of loons and others.
Mila,
A perfect logic!
Without a coffee house or Amoor Inn, we restless LE ramblings could blow the entire LwL before this Saturday.
LaR, quite the Potterhead. The Inn may very well be the “Room of requirement”. Great concept!
I was sure the Inn was closed for repairs for another week, but here we go again! Perhaps I shouldn’t be in charge of the smoothies, because as an economical person I would try to find a use for those unsold beef trifles!
Btw, just a note on the drunken roar lyrics – L.E. has been very polite about his new lyrics. I’d like to note that he was originally only a “retired submariner who was happy at home with his wife”, no fetishes mentioned. 😀
Trifles,
Sorry to have changed your original melodies… but you said I could color our patrons as I deemed fit.
Your smoothies are always so sweet and soothing, while my cocktails use the self-confessed “ingredients” scattered across LwL (I don’t make up facts revealed by LwLers themselves).
“Red-hair” lover is quite common as LaR inquired about; I can’t help but see the “Red Hair Flame” reflected on LE’s forehead…
Editing: I can’t help but see the “Red Hair Flame” reflected on LE’s forehead, as he was heartbrokenly after LO’s heels 👠 👠
The Red hue is still imprinted on his forehead…
“I was sure the Inn was closed for repairs for another week”
You mean you doubted my three days of solid 🧱🧰 labour would produce lasting results? (Quite likely, if you knew me IRL!). Nope – the only damage this weekend was to reputations. We are kicking on now with service now through the holidays!
“Perhaps I shouldn’t be in charge of the smoothies, because as an economical person I would try to find a use for those unsold beef trifles!”
If any of those trifles are left by Christmas, I’m thinking a brussel sprout smoothie might complement them well??
“L.E. has been very polite about his new lyrics”
I reckon he is in a good place, dreaming of those book royalties as more welder stories keep coming in, and dreaming up cunning ways to create fun and games in his limerence ‘recovery’ house.
Patrons are always welcome to drop me an email or contact form note 😉
It’s been more than 30 days since the last coffeehouse, so it closed automatically. Obviously I am not posting enough!
Next one opens on Saturday. Till then, keep chatting…
Oh, phew, we even have the owner’s permission to continue.
“You mean you doubted my three days of solid labour would produce lasting results?”
Never send a lawyer/HR manager to do a builder’s job! 😉
As for the smoothies, broccoli sounds fancy! What’s wrong with a simple beef trifle smoothie??
I just realized another cute, ‘naive’ coincidence. Just last Thursday I was telling someone that one of my few romantic fantasies is to be serenaded. I’ve been ‘accidentally’ serenaded a couple of times (I’ve been the only audience to a love song, slightly uncomfortable). 😜 But not in a planned way.
But I think I – or “Trifles” – was serenaded virtually over the weekend. 😯 Ask and you shall receive… Yet, I never thought my skills with a blow torch would be praised in said serenade!
LaR,
This weekend, make sure to install a simple outdoor shower, put some strong mouthwash and men’s cologne in the shed, so the Welder 👩🏭 does not smell offensively, at least.
Not sure what’s on my face, I just got holiday/God blessing/greetings again from a “crazy” stranger in 🚇 system….
Its so embarrassing!
Trifles,
“L.E. has been very polite about his new lyric“
I assure you that LE is chucking hard at home with the his new lyric image —
“ A married, retired, gray haired submariner who is happy kissing his wife at home” puts him on a back burner of life—
.
Then “a red-hair-fetish submariner, who enjoys crazily smooching his wife at home” yet is seen at Amoor Inn chatting with Bewitched, LE is pulled/painted back to the center stage —Simultaneously stimulating audience’s boundless imagination: Does our motherly bewitched have red hair 👩🦰? Why does he send those annoying welder and lawyer to the moor, and why does he keeps knocking at the Amor Door ? Who else has red hair there….
With all liners’ given facts in LwL, we can safely, artistically paint and highlight their individualistic, unique COLOR and rock our Inn. Feel free to jingle or serenade away!
It’s the holiday after all!
Snow, a-ha, so it was a revamped, more mysterious image for L.E.? I see… 😀
The greetings on the metro were probably sent by a ghost from LwL. 👻 Be sure to pay them forward to another unsuspecting stranger! 😉
“LaR,
This weekend, make sure to install a simple outdoor shower, put some strong mouthwash and men’s cologne in the shed, so the Welder 👩🏭 does not smell offensively, at least.”
It can’t have escaped your attention that I am quite busy, what with a bar to run and a lady to sing my siren songs to?!
The person doing this very necessary maintenance work *needs* to be the same person that brought this welder into town 📣📣📣
Trifles,
Everyone, like LE, is “mysteriously” (faceless) love smitten (by that cold-n-hot LO) and would love to be painted/sung/prosed as romantic as possible! So as long as we don’t mix up or make up given facts, we can exaggerate artistically in songs/lyrics to the heart’s delight — it’s every artist’s task!
DrL, sorry I can no longer imagine and dream you as “wildly” as I did before… not my fault, but the power of image and imagination.
******
It IS my day today, indeed! 💋 Oh, thank Jung’s synchronicity and your superstition, that just worked Double a few minutes ago!
I posted my last message in our famous park, watching those skylines over the its peaceful, silvery lake, perched by countless geese (it’s 15 C right now, 0 C three days ago). I wanted to stay there longer…
Then I passed my most frequented food market, and got heavily flirted by this 20 something, curly/wavy haired, fair/smooth skinned, sweet/cutie pie! He initiated compliments on my burgundy jacket, my shopping bag from Spain (with Picasso )… I told him I just came from the sunny park and wished he could go there… he then suggested that we switch the position for an hour… so he could get out there… He bid me a very sweet goodbye, “Have a good day, Miss!” and stared into my eyes — 😵💫
Gosh, I haven’t met any cutie pie like this one for a long while… I want him (DrL’s voice echoed in my 🧠 “I want him, I want him now!…) for my lunch! 😍. Shall I find an excuse back to the market later❓😋
I realized later that there is nothing wrong on my face — no black inn spot (but maybe ✨ in my eyes)! But if I’m on a burgundy jacket, scarf or sweater …I’d be in “trouble” in public and with men of all ages… 😳
This is meant to be a compliment — men are like dogs who can sense/smell you, a limerent, before you can hear your own heart’s beat… ❤️🔥
The cutie pie is my cashier, on December 17, 2024.
I have to remember this day!
******
The red-hair 👩🦰 chaser, LE 📣, it’s indeed your job to the task I mentioned earlier this morning….
I’ll try to bring this wavy-haired, sweet cutie pie (sweeter and younger than Romeo) to the Inn… 🥰. He might help liberate the imprisoned 🐧 from 👽 at last….
Snow,
👏👏👏 Yes, get back down the market and persuade him to the inn! We still have hours until last orders.
LaR,
After my tutoring, I’ll pass the market again; but customers don’t get choose a cashier, you’re assigned one after a single line.
I’ll peek through the windows while passing; if he sees me, I’d jump into a sinkhole nearby — It will be considered a real Stalking — no one goes there twice a day….
But I’ll carry his sweet face to Amoor Inn, and pray to dream him tonight…. 😍❤️🔥
All these Jung’s dream talks and the strange 18 yrs dog in my dream last night has brought my lucks in the morning and at noon…
Trifles,
“Ask and you shall receive… Yet, I never thought my skills with a blow torch would be praised in said serenade!”
Glad you liked it 😊 Though – I’m sorry about the blowtorch being there (HE-who-should-not-be-named is just somehow getting everywhere in the collective LwL conscience).
Back at you – I needed the humour of your song on Saturday (the end of last week sucked royally for me) and I duly got it.
Hopefully some more examples there of the benefits of
🎵 purposeful naive livin’🎵 . I’m not inviting discussion on this point (and if I am correct, you will fully get why) but I think I might know who the famous ‘wise man’ you kind of quoted about that form of living is 👻👻
By the way, it cracks me up that people here think I work in HR 🤣 (though I should really have just run with it to throw people off the scent). Have I REALLY not done enough to convince people yet that I’m a farmer by day and a barman by night??
Snow,
“Then I passed my most frequented food market, and got heavily flirted by this 20 something, curly/wavy haired, fair/smooth skinned, sweet/cutie pie!”
So come on, have a drink on the house and let’s talk – this type of event is exciting news in LwL land indeed, and all without sign of HIM (locked in the shed with the plough and no shower).
Who glimmered for who first?! (Bearing in mind the loss in translation we sometimes experience with that expression)
Just got out the a market, the cutie Joe, left for the day, I assume. My heart sunk…🫦
In a wine tasting in a spirit store, really likes the pink sparkly “Prosecco Rose D.O.C” made with organic grape— crystal crispy, refreshing! Am getting it for New Year Eve.
Will tell the juicy detail of glimmering at Cutie Joe later when I get home.
“Sing us a song, oh the Amoor Gang!” 🎶
🎶: Ah, a glorious, heavenly-blessed, Naive day ‼️
❄️ got blessed by a smiling man (in his 40-50s) in the subway and two hour later another cutie, looking like has just walked down from a classical oil painting, glimmered for me (or the other way around❓) and chitchat/flirted with 🐦🔥
When directed to his cashier desk about 6-8 meters away, ❄️ sideway caught a fresh, young face (18-22), with off-black, natural wavy hair (no spray), smooth, fair skin, slim (around 175cm) smiled at me while waiting. He saw me first walking towards him, so I did not have a chance to glimmer at a stranger, who was looking elsewhere. He was required by the store policy to be very agreeable to his customers. (the chain store is famous for their cashiers’ superb, personable warm service; they chat with every customers all the time. )
After being god-blessed, walked 2 kgs in the park bathing in a rare, warm winter Sun, then stood on top of a freshly painted “antique”, arched wooden bridge, responding Trifler, and after grabbed the last 3 packages of Taiwanese scallion- pancakes(always out of stock, also lucky today! ) for my 9 yrs “limerent” pupil (so we could also cook together after his lessons), I was falling in love/Agape with the day (controlled my itchy hand to send a signal/image to the Mars, which I often did in the past while crossing the same park).
Then I saw this smiling, picturesque cashier, Joe! Did I glimmer at him❓🤔 I did not feel any heart beat skipped or anything subtly clicked in my brain… But I could not help smile, which could possibly make others/men often go “wonder” and myself in “trouble”…😊 , especially when I was “In the Mood for Love” (movie title)… 💓
As I put my grocery on his side counter —
PJ (Picturesque Joe): — “hello! How are you?”
me smiling: “Very good!”
PJ paused for a second, “is that the bag you want to use for today?” He slowly picked it up.
me: yes, It’s from Spain. (Gigantic tote with a zipper, entirely painted with Picasso’s Les Demoiselles d’Avignon)
PJ said a Spanish word: When did you go to Spain?
Me: two summers ago.
PJ paused for a second, “that must be hot.”
Me: yes, it’s between 105-109 F everyday, but very dry. It’s okay.
PJ: Hmm.. I like this weather, moisture and cool.
Me: I had no choice, I was already there; so just endured the heat… I could not believe I was still walking around alone… only needed water.
PJ: “where did you go?”
Me: Madrid, Sevilla, Cordoba, Barcelona, Toledo…
PJ: I will make it to where one day.
Me: Definitely worth it! …. it’s really nice outside today, so warm…
PJ: I like your outfit. (📣 LaR, is this some kind of picking up line” or just flattery?)
Me blushed — it was the least coordinated outfit in the whole year — a thin, burgundy velvet jacket (w/ modern zipper), red-black-skull silk scarf (McQueen), black sweater pants covered by a blue skirt with three-lines of bohemian/flower petal ruffles (gipsy kind of ruffles), black Mary Jone leather shoes with a pair of black shallow socks — ❄️ ankle flesh was visible — I literally looked like a piece of abstract collage babbling.
Me: Ah… I just piled up those stuff on me today… [blushing] It’s so nice outside, you should take a break for the park (a block away) .
PJ: I wish I could before getting home. Maybe we could switch a place now❓
Me smiling: Yes, seriously I could work in your spot for an hour, so you can get to the park…
PJ dreamily smiled, paused his sweet eyes in mine…
A walking “portrait” of Greek Mythology was flirting with and smiling at me — sweet, innocent, humble, relaxed, eyes smiling and attentive…. Oh, how I wished I had picked up more stuff to check out, instead of just 5 items (primarily for my impatient pupil)!
PJ: “I’ll put the receipt in your bag.”
me: Thank you.
PJ sweetly smiling: Have a nice day, Miss!”
I did not want to leave, I should have said I’ve forgot some items, then go back to the inside, and he’d be bound to wait for me… my brain was cooked and locked!
After walking out of the store, DrL’s lizard image in one of his articles popped into my head, “I want him, I want him now!” 😂🤣😂 Yeap, I wanted to have PJ for lunch under the lucky star 🌟 for me today!
But now, I’ve already forgot PJ’s picturesque face — a very dangerous sign (due to over thinking about an attractive face)…
The synchronous adventure of 🐦🔥 today!
Amoor Inn is closing….
“📣 LaR, is this some kind of picking up line” or just flattery?”
It is so hard to say because the answer to that is heavily cultural (depends on the norms) and also depends on the person, their age, their confidence level etc etc etc.
The more a compliment relates to something physical, the more it strays towards a pick up line. Complimenting an outfit is on the borderline. I have never had the confidence to really use chat up lines on women (I might to women I know, or to SOs, but never really otherwise). From me, I feel it would sound cheesy and inauthentic. But then what is *really* inauthentic about admiring someone’s outfit? Nothing! It is an area I often wished I was better in.
Let’s flip this round and educate the barman (other LwL ladies also welcome into this discussion!) – from a female perspective, what is a good or welcome compliment to receive, and what is a bad one?? Where are the lines between classy and cheesy?
A debate more for later, but the idea of ‘pick up lines’ (in my culture called chat up lines) got sullied in the 00s by a series of books and TV programmes on ‘picking up’, most notably ‘The Game’ by Neil Strauss. This book by today’s standards almost claims it can tell men how to trick women into bed, starting with the first thing they say to them. In today’s culture it would be frowned upon. In my culture sometimes the whole notion of a ‘pick up line’ is now frowned upon, because of that book and associated TV series.
The whole ‘chatting up’ thing has always been a total minefield for me!!
Did I answer your question? 😅🔨🧠🤯
LaR,
I don’t think you got the naive ‘wise man’, it was just a local rock lyricist. But sometimes the same thoughts go around and around. It must mean there is some universal truth to them.
“Have I REALLY not done enough to convince people yet that I’m a farmer by day and a barman by night??” Yeah, the ploughing in December in your climate kind of gave it away. 😀
“I’m sorry about the blowtorch being there…” You give me too much credit! Do you think I wasn’t tempted to try the welder’s blowtorch? (*resists use of quotation marks). But that’s all I’m saying on the subject. (Oh no, now that I put it that way, I’m starting to see the lyrics in a new light! 😂)
I will have to return to the chat-up line conversation in another comment. It would be dangerous in this context. *Goes back to work writing jingles. I hope you have a better day than those of last week!
“Yeah, the ploughing in December in your climate kind of gave it away. 😀”
Come on now, you know enough with your background about care for agricultural machinery. A plough rusts and freezes if its engine isn’t at least idled over the winter 🚜
Trifles,
Here some quote relating naivety vs. wisdom by Einstein —
“I always get by best with my naivety, which is 20 percent deliberate.“
“If you want your children to be intelligent, read them fairy tales. If you want them to be more intelligent, read them more fairy tales.”
“Wisdom is not a product of schooling but of the lifelong attempt to acquire it.”
The ordinary objects of human endeavour, property, outward success, luxury, have always seemed to me contemptible.
Albert Einstein
****
With Einstein’s genius, he could afford 20% of naivety by choice. ((he’s known for having Asperger, terrible/bad tempered in social skills, and treated his wife very badly)
No longer children with incalculable amount of ignorance and insecurity, I can afford 0% of deliberate naivety, but compelled to constantly chase and obtain some wisdom.
LaR,
Multitasking here: I’m proctoring my own final right now, 1.5+ hours to go, I’d fall in sleep if my hands don’t do something.
“ Complimenting an outfit is on the borderline.”
I thought CJ (cutie Joe) was smart to say it, because he’s in the position to please his customers. If it were between two stranger customers, that would be odd. Occasionally, some women would give compliments on my or other’s outfit.
But yesterday, I dressed up like a rare-specie turkey, which might have “shocked” Cutie Joe. His “praise” made me feel so embarrassed; yet I still enjoyed its inauthenticity coming out of a picturesque face.
Think of it now, he can do no wrong no matter what he could have possibly said. In person communication relays on not What is said, but HOW it is said! Online chatting doesn’t have that advantage, but depended on one’s interpretation of words (native or 2nd tongue), one’s cultural & personal background, and the listeners’ moods.
“I have never had the confidence to really use chat up lines on women (I might to women I know, or to SOs, but never really otherwise).”
I think I’ve missed or misunderstood a lot of chat up or hinted lines over years, (especially with 👽), so culturally ignorant of ❄️ 😏 ! It’d be a big cultural challenge trying to have EA or PA with me, the other side would lose its “subtle or coy” fun.
“From me, I feel it would sound cheesy and inauthentic. But then what is *really* inauthentic about admiring someone’s outfit? Nothing! It is an area I often wished I was better in.”
I’ve learned to focus on outfit itself — style, color, pattern, possible ethnic origin, effects on one’s complexion, etc. In the same food store, I complimented random cashier’s artistic hairdo, they (men & women) were always happy!
“from a female perspective, what is a good or welcome compliment to receive, and what is a bad one?? Where are the lines between classy and cheesy?”
I’m told (by training on teaching) to appropriately compliment on people’s choice for clothing or hairdo, bags, sunglasses, achievements… anything that involves their mental or physical or artistic efforts and tastes. That means LOOKS or APPEARANCE is out of range for “classy”. One cannot choose one’s own appearance, it’s purely by chance/luck. Complimenting is a kind of living art.
“A debate more for later, but the idea of ‘pick up lines’ (in my culture called chat up lines) got sullied in the 00s by a series of books and TV programmes on ‘picking up’, most notably ‘The Game’ by Neil Strauss. “
This is the first time I hear about such programs. I’m lucky not to be overly influenced by pop cultures (stick to my own oddities), but meanwhile unlucky because often I could not get into others’ chitchats, consequently “alienating” myself, making it hard to befriend with locals. I have more international friends than local ones.
“The whole ‘chatting up’ thing has always been a total minefield for me!!”
I bet “chatting up” or flirting a form of living “art”… Good lucks! 😄
By now, cutie Joe (PJ) has become a distanced memory, after writing about it, exaggerating it, and having other dreams last night (forget now). It was really fun for its “Now and Here” worth and its dramatization in Amoor Inn after your free drink!
The final is ending!
I like compliments on my outfit because I put thought into it and want it to be noticed. But unless the person is allowed some level of intimacy with me, don’t make it creepy with more sexual or lustful comments.
Snow,
Nice to hear synchronicity worked so well for you yesterday! I encouraged frederico to chat up the hunky flower farmer but f took leave of LwL before he had gathered up courage to do that. So even though you say the Joe saga is ending, you might have to take a turn.
Meanwhile I had a ‘tough’ day at work. I mostly work from home and I work with mostly women. I was in the office for meetings today and I have literally two male colleagues. The other is very cute and for some reason, on the rare occasion that we are all in the same place, we always end up finding a seat near each other and chatting. There are other colleagues we rarely see, who we could and should talk with. I thought it was coincidence, but at this point it’s too regular an occurrence. He is unavailable and an overly decent guy. So the magnetic-like pull is strange. (Note: there is no limerence! I don’t spend time thinking about him.)
The other is a higher-up that we rarely see. For some reason he also kept seeking out eye contact with me in our meeting. (Maybe I had something on my face too! Actually, I think he was looking for support for what he was saying, but why always me?) He is also annoyingly cute.
So I felt like I was dodging eye contact from two directions. 🥴 It’s dangerous at the office!
The best way to compliment a woman is to compliment her on something about her that she can change. While I am sure hearing “you’re beautiful” is nice, but that was something she was born with. Compliment her on her outfit or how she does her hair. Compliment her on a quality that you really admire in her. She’s hard working. Smart. Has a good sense of humor. As long as it is a genuine compliment you don’t have to be overly worried as a man that you are coming off too sexual or creepy.
Adam,
I found that,
“Nations go to war over women like you”
It’s from “Strut” by Sheena Easton.
https://youtu.be/uSp0kO-NBWw?feature=shared
But, it works really well.
Adam, even if you comment on women’s intelligence, or vice versa, it has to be specific. A word “smart” sounds a flatter time if it’s not related in specific areas/content. No one is smart in everything.
LE, the line is still for vain women, Helen of Troy!
SL: It can’t go wrong to compliments on anything on that some thought and effort are invested.
Trifles: either your TO or EA with LaR is making you blossom which men can pick up like dogs.
Trifles,
Adam, correction: “smarts still sounds a superficial flattery to me….”
Any adjective is “empty”/meaningless if without content backing up.
What does “s/he is nice/intelligent” really mean? In what ways or areas?
“LE, the line is still for vain women, Helen of Troy!”
@Snow,
I still love the line. But what I like even more is he’s plugging a Sheena Easton classic. I loved her voice. So 80’s, but so pure.. 🤣🤩
@SL
They pay to ask the awkward questions here, so:
“unless the person is allowed some level of intimacy with me, don’t make it creepy with more sexual or lustful comments.”
How are we men to know when it is ‘allowed’? This is a question I have always wrestled with. Not meaning to sound weird – just interested – in asking.
Snow
I was trying to think of examples outside of outward appearance, something no man or woman has control over, that’s genetics.
But yes I agree being more specific. I always complimented what a hard working, determined and loving mother LO was having to raise her daughter on her own. That is compliment directly to the person they are not something superficial. Which any person can comment on with no sincerity and possibly an ulterior motive.
Conversely when she would ask for relationship advice she would preface her question with “Adam you’ve been married for 23 years you would know ….” To which I felt she said that as a compliment despite that the amount years married doesn’t equate with an actual successful marriage.
That said I’m kinda with Lim-a-rant’s query. As I make great effort in my interactions with my female co-workers.
@LAR: If you have a sexual relationship already, you can comment on her luscious [fill-in-the-blank]. Otherwise, you might get decked. 😉
LE, MJ
When I first got to dating App after divorce, a man literally compared me to Helen of Troy, I did not give him a chance even for one date. His photo looked a pale and whimpering type…
Very vain back then and just after studied Homer, I didn’t care to be considered as a woman who could cause a legendary wars between nations — too much flattery!! 🥴.
I’d rather to get two Ph.D degrees if possible; because Narc Mom said “you’re good for nothing!” — my first memory of her speaking to me. Now, you know how strong the “inferior complex” could impact a girl — prefer a Ph. D over being a “Helen of Troy” in my town — It’s just a given, unchosen face, for Zeus’ sake!
Another guy from the app. bragged that he had 27-bedroom house and owned the entire floor of the Empire State Building… Nope, not even one date for the dude! But I’ll take cutie cashier Joe, for lunch, anytime… 😋
Over years, I’ve come to understand human biology better and finally this DNA driven limerence ❄️ 🧠 🔨…. *sigh* 😞
Trifles,
“So even though you say the Joe saga is ending, you might have to take a turn.”
I said and treated the saga being over for the day — just yesterday. I would have to shop in that store again, since it’s one of three markets for my 99% fresh food supplies. I am just trying to mentally live “now and here”, no more planning or anticipating anything for tomorrow.
However, if I “take a turn” for Cutie Joe, I’ll have to change my handle name here as “❄️ 🦁-Cougar ” 🙈 … so I’ll just “eat him up” for lunch here in LwL… 😋. He’s probably getting hundreds of ladies daily flinging with the same imagination…
I have another Synchronicity event about an hour ago, can’t believe my huge luck — expecting and ready to encounter the “worst” and then shockingly got rewarded by the “best” with a sheer luck! So unbelievable!
Apollo, Who 📣📣 is over watching me in Olympia Mount❓
Adam,
You’re doing great in giving authentic, substantial compliments (outside appearance) to your female coworkers. Speaking from a woman’s perspective, I assure you that they all truly appreciate it‼️
For anyone who wants to learn the art of flirt — Utterly important and healthy:
https://youtu.be/rZTqF5oYUqo?si=nwYaQy729NuGi4wN — When, How, and When to flirt! The essential and healthy skills!
Positively flirt away!!!
MJ,
This video is specially for you — How to Seduce Someone with Confidence.
Good luck with your Lady friend! 💪
The best compliment is to “dance” in their individual tempo —
https://youtu.be/KyBtc0k3rFE?si=ShM9Zvbj7YCDdAuT — Tango sensual
That’s what I call relationship in harmony, not in limerence…
Me, I love compliments on what I’ve done or can change, but also on what I cannot change- who doesn’t like to be called beautiful?
Funny that snow and Trifles had their flirting moments this week,I had one too – mine seemed a bit more dangerous since it was one of the top candidates for XLOs position at work. He‘s very good and I deliberately sweet-talked him a bit to make sure (and also ask him) he applies for the position, since I know that everyone loves him but isn’t sure he’s interested.
(He is. At least now;)
Other colleagues apparently picked up on the vibe immediately and secretly made photos for fun of us talking- when I saw them it shocked me a bit because we both seem besotted and relaxed at the same time.
The good thing is, he‘s almost 20 years younger and I don’t seriously fancy him, as he doesn’t see me in that light, I’m sure.
It still freaked me out for a short time simply because 1. it’s XLOs position 2. he really has got some similarities with XLO.
They bang together in their measured, passionate, harmonious steps —
https://youtu.be/vr8HcHbzAmE?si=lLYXS34qW_g6TvJS — Passion Tango
Father continued tango after survived his labor camp… I was so fortunate to be mentored by him with his unbent optimism and upbeat tango for life… 💃
Mila,
Enjoy all the moments with this new candidates, HERE and NOW!
Because of the clear realization that those flirts with younger cuties could go nowhere, we relax without any anxieties and expectations, which then in return make them feeling relaxed and enjoying our company. Trust me, men can be very charming with who we are at the moments of interaction, as long as we feel completely at ease and confidence in our skin.
I hope this new candidates gets hired.
Hi Snow,
interestingly he‘s up against a candidate my age where I’m quite sure that I glimmer for him(I’m site that’s not the correct grammar, but I’m too tired). This one is also very good, at the moment I couldn’t decide who I’d hire.
I agree with just enjoying these moments, but they are a bit more dangerous at work than at the cashier or places where you know you won’t see them again.
As there was a different interpretation of „Glimmer at“, I mean that he finds me attractive and shows signs of heightened awareness/agitation around me, not the other way round)
@Snow,
Thank you for the well wish. I certainly need it..
Amoor Inn Bangs Purposeful Livin’
It’s nine o’clock on a Saturday
The regular crowd shuffles in
There is an “old man”, Adam, sittin’ next to me
Makin’ love to his tonic and gin
LaR, the barmen and a friend of mine
Who’s getting me my drinks for free
And he’s quick with a joke or to light up your smoke
(“no blow torches, please” and also: “take it outside, for chrissakes!”)
But there’s some place that he’d rather be
He says, “Trife, I believe this is killing me”
As the smile ran away from his face
“We just can’t get rid of the minced-meat trifles
I should kick you out of this place”
Now L.E. a retired, red-hair-fetish submariner
Who enjoys smooching at home with his wife
And he’s talkin’ with Bewitched, who’s scratchin’ an old itch
(“Where is my besodden welder?”)
But will certainly do ok in life
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
And MJ is an old-hand limerent
Who’s looking for a younger wife
And he’s talkin’ with Mila, who’d like to chill in Anguilla
But can’t escape her busy life
And Snow is swinging her “voodoo” philosophical dances
(Of both the East and West)
As the limerents slowly get stoned
Sharing a drink they call Loneliness
But it’s much better than drinkin’ alone
La-LaR-di-dee-da
La-LaR-di-dee-da, da-dum…
It’s a pretty good crowd for a Saturday
And ABCD throws me a smile
‘Cause we’ve been comin’ to see DrL’s face on screen
To forget about cold-n-hot LO for a while
And Serial Limerent’s goth metal sounds like a carnival
And the welder smells like a mulled beer
And we sit at the bar and give a toast to LaR
And say, “Man, what are WE doin’ here?”
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
I see this song as a massive drunk roar
As everyone staggers home across the moor
while paying homage to the lyricist, Trifle
Whose home might be somewhere near the tower of Eiffel
(And why still has nobody tried that beef trifle?)
Snow’s OCD is drivin’ her rambling tongue
that takes a greedy bite of the beef trifle
and rushes to a preaching outside of Amoor Inn
On a sunny Saturday afternoon
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Now Red-skirted Imho has mysteriously gone missing
And we baffle about it as we aging
But suddenly shouts Snow, “Oh, wouldn’t you know!
She and the welder are in the corner a-kissing!”
And our beloved Bewitched shrieked at the door
“Oi, hands-off, He’s Mine!”
Now, Mila is back to amiable texting with her LO
But she declares she has no limerent aching left
And we‘ll see how it would go face to face after a winter’s Moon
Hope for amiable, friendly contact without
Getting irked or distant again
‘round and ‘round at noon
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
‘Trifles – a whizz with the blowtorch -
No puzzle’s too clever for her
On the farm, at the inn
Purposefully naive livin’
And sings “wasn’t it fun to transfer?”
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Snow is a non-native, fire bird from the Fast East sky
And culturally ignorant and shy
She has no clue how the bang of her black hair
has anything to do with “She Bangs”
But her naive eyes catches the Gang of Amoor banging on fire
And her red heels kickin’ the lawyer’ brief-case in dare
Sing us a song, oh the Amoor Gang,
Purposeful livin’ for life, Here and Now
One more drink before we go
To stop that text to LO
And spread Amazon Warrior vibes
After the Dawn
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
Chorus 🎼 —
It’s fun
it’s lovin’ to transfer LO to TO
and TO to LO
round and ‘round the moor
Purposefully Naive Livin’
In sparkly splashing Amoor Inn
Stop chasing LO on a social screen
Stop sending LO our LE oozed, doozy vibration
Oh, la, la-Lar, di-dee-da
La-LaR, di-dee-da, da-dum…
— Trifles 🎶, LaR 🖋️, 🐦🔥
December 15, 2024
Early on in my LE, when my feelings for LO started to become painful, I realized looking at her Social Media caused me pain. LO and I followed each other on IG and she regularly hearted my posts. Once my LE turned sour I hid her so she would never pop up in my feed. This was about 6 weeks into my LE. But still she would sometimes message me and send me reels thru IG. About 10 months in I actually unfollowed her. At this point she must have known because IG won’t let you message someone who doesn’t follow you yet she still then sent me reels thru normal text. About 6 months later she finally unfollowed me back. I still have her hid so that she doesn’t pop up in the people to follow lists.
All this to say, looking at pics of LO or knowing about her personal life thru SM is nothing I care to do at all. Has never been a temptation for me. Its distressing enough I have to see her in person 3 days a week.
I would hide her if possible and remove that trigger.
This was response to ABCD
Thanks, Speed.
For me, text communication with LO is zero for a long time now, so one less thing to worry about. To be honest, I do not really feel the urge to text now.
Since we are connected on social media, her status pops up now and then in my feed. We used to like each other’s posts.
I agree with you, best to hide her and remove the trigger.
Our physical contact was not much to begin with, like one or twice a month.
I wish you all the best.
“Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life’s coming attractions.”
-Albert Einstein
Everyone here in LwL is using imagination, only different in quantity and intensity. ❄️
“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the Mysterious.“ —Albert Einstein
It’s one of top reasons that LwL is so addictive. Step an inch back from your LE sufferings, you’d sense and see such a beauty. ❄️
“Don’t listen to the person who has the answers; listen to the person who has the questions.”
— Albert Einstein
Questions often hold half of answers, which would lead to more Mysterious beauties and their exploration. ❄️
“Love brings much happiness, much more so than pining for someone brings pain.”
ALBERT EINSTEIN
Does this translation have a grammar error? ❄️
“It’s easy to be a naive idealist. It’s easy to be a cynical realist. It’s quite another thing to have no illusions and still hold the inner flame.”
Marie-Louise von Franz
If every limerent is stuck or choose to be in the last scenario in their LE, what would happen to their life❓Would DrL need to go back to his university post? 🤔
Mila,
I can’t cope with the scrolling so I am starting a fresh thread, but this is re ‘glimmer at’
I imagine it like this. Say I see a literal bright light which has a big impact on my eyes. It is the light, not me, that is doing the glimmering. I am the experiencer of the results of that light glimmering.
So going metaphorical, I would use
‘LO glimmered at/for me’ to mean that I am experiencing the glimmer, in response to LO’s ‘light’.
Opposite way round, to say more like someone else became limerent for me = “I glimmer(ed) for her/him” (less used in LwL town but I think this is what you mean about the second candidate for the job).
Mila, Mila, what is it about that job role?! Funny/not funny stunt there on the part of your co-workers …
And here is the original blog on it.
https://livingwithlimerence.com/the-glimmer/
when I first read it, it was my lightbulb moment of what other-worldly thing had happened to me.
The comments are also interesting to read on this one.
I think a strong female should apply for that job !
Mila, could you go for it maybe ?!
Hi LaR,and IMHO,
That’s how I would use the word, too.
While the first candidate glimmered a bit for me and me maybe for him, the second one doesn’t glimmer for me any more (did very shortly at first meeting)while I think I glimmer for him. But all conjecture and actually not very important.
I would have to define my job to explain the role and position of XLO, but I cannot take over this position, it’s not my field of work. No strong female in sight🤷🏻♀️
But don’t worry! I‘m all relaxed about it.
Main thing is to get a good worker, and everything else isn’t important. I‘m not worried at all that there might be a new LE in waiting, there‘s not! Also, it’s a very attractive job, and there might come other candidates along, maybe a female, there’s no decision in the next few months.
Snow,
The message to MJ that you say links to a video doesn’t seem to have a link. Please share this video with us, as it sounds intriguing!
All this flirting chat … please tell me you didn’t go down a rabbit hole all day yesterday starting with my talk of ‘The Game’ or ‘The Pick up Artist’? As I kept saying, these books / tv shows are quite frowned upon nowadays because they imply women are objects who can be almost coerced if the right methods are used. The author of The Game (an ordinary bald guy off the street previously unlucky in love) reckons he got close to seducing Paris Hilton with his methods.
I had an incredibly detailed limerence dream last night from which I remember loads. Need to get it out on here for your delectation before I forget things but could be quite a lot of typing…
MJ,
Here is the video I forgot to attach last night: https://youtu.be/iH3xXrk9JrQ?si=bF4WzmGqMxI39ose — How to Seduce Someone with confidence.
I hope it helps.
LaR,
I didn’t google anything you told me about “the game” or even the authors. I was rarely into pop culture or follow any SM sites, and don’t feel FOMO. My head is more then often wrapped within with wacky stuff. Seeing even acquaintances’ updates with photos does not make me feel more connected with them, unless personal mutual communication have been maintained. Between superficial socialization and aloneness with my hobbies and creativities, I prefer the latter. How do you feel about your communications/connections with pals/family in reality vs. ghosts here?
It is the first time that I’ve been spending so much time in LwL, where I got scattered cultural staff — particularly profound mental/emotional suffering, through everyone’s post….from which I have tried to understand collective and individual psychology/mentality/behavior behind limerence and around romance. Its irresistible appeal is that we could voice out our IFS Wounds and Protectors without worrying our realistic identity being exposed. Where else one could be so authentic to the Family Members of one’s Self?
Hi Snow,
“How do you feel about your communications/ connections with pals/family in reality vs. ghosts here?”
I do a lot of both – has been a very social few weeks for me with friends and family, so in a sense I have not chosen LwL at their expense (only at the expense of time alone with myself and my thoughts – which probably says quite a lot in itself).
The thing with LwL is it allows me to release the one (big) side of me that I have to constantly hide from everyone in my real life – all the feelings associated with my limerence. I got asked about things with MFF last week by one of the three people who is aware of it in my real life circles – and declined the conversation.
I can’t really get enough of talking to people on LwL about it, as despite the massive differences in all our LEs, you all ‘get it’ and are a goldmine of helpful information. I get what you mean about the need to spend more time interrogating myself (‘how and why did I get into this?’). But honestly – and like ABCD said – sometimes it is more about prioritising what is in front of my nose – navigating the almost daily time I (have to and sometimes choose to on top) spend with MFF and the firestorm of emotions it creates.
LwL and the people here help me no end with that, and to some extent with dialoguing out the deeper self-interrogation too (I accept it will take time and gentle treatment). Sometimes longer term strategies have to take a backseat.
I think when I come to want to think of limerence less, I will need to use LwL less. But for now, LwL is an infinitely safer vehicle than through MFF, to explore my LE.
Hello everyone. I thought I would post a quick status update before going into the holidays.
I am feeling better and better with regards to my LE. Though I still think about her (old habits die hard), the thoughts are very manageable, and not emotionally heavy, like they used to be. It seems like some remnant of LE shall always remain in me, and that’s fine.
Not that it matters, but I came to know about some not too pleasant qualities of her (we’re all human, right?). Whether this is true or not, for me it works as it has really helped and propelled me ahead on the road to recovery.
It is like a whole new world has opened up to me, kind of like it was pre LE, it feels really good.
I will still keep on popping in here to share my updates, and to offer whatever advice I can.
Happy holidays, all!
Happy holidays ABCD ! Great to read.
I’m in a relapse due to my recent long anticipated event.
I’m burying my update here before the next coffeehouse opens. I hope you don’t mind.
I mainly want to thank everyone’s support on here beforehand.
I did avoid seeing LO more than the one time despite my yearning to arrange to see him before/after the event. I just didn’t think my nervous system could cope.
it was like a firework going off on seeing each other again. I think it’s pure attraction and connection. It was acknowledged by both of us. I know it’s against the rule book to do so but it was just there and couldn’t be suppressed. we also have mutual trust and respect for SOs.
Neither of us wanted to say goodbye.
Anyway, we may never see each other again and that is the way it is.
I think he probably lives in the moment more than me and can move on with nice memory. And this is simply what I need to do also.
Ooh Imho!
No matter where you hide it, I’m on your heels, update-wise😂
It sounds like a very positive happy event, wasn’t it? I‘m glad you sound so alive and happy.
I need to have it spelled out: you both disclosed?
I think you shouldn’t punish yourself now or turn it into something anguished by conscience or whatever.
Just enjoy it, try to enjoy and let it pass through you and let go at the same time? Time will do her thing, as you say you don’t see each other that much or at all.
Is it possible to just let this stand as a warm and nice memory without wanting to prolong it? And not contact him?
Because I tell you, that’s where the trouble starts. I learned that from my first LE. The first signs that it’s mutual are wonderful, and there are some beautiful moments. Afterwards, it gets downhill, straight into limerent hell of waiting, expecting, suffering, accusing, crying and whatnot. ( I speak only of mutual limerence with barriers and no future).
Why not enjoy these beautiful moments now and just leave it at that! Always wanting more, that’s the start of all pain…
Ha ha, of course no hiding from Mila, even when I shyly step behind the shield of lovely ABCD.
On the question of disclosure, it depends the definition I guess, but it was very clear despite no ‘L’ words being spoken ( ie love nor limerence).
I feel alive yes, as all my senses were switched on to the highest setting, but it’s exhausting and consuming with all the emotions, physical feelings, neurochemicals etc. I lost a lot of kilos through it all.
And yes, you are right actually I think this is an opportunity to pull back now. Without going into details he said quite some things that I was not expecting, which could prolong my ruminating, but I need to not let this happen, because it will lead to nowhere land or worse.
ABCD, please forgive me.
Maybe I felt all your good progress could help offset my setback by some kind of association.
I like how you wrote about getting back to pre-LE times again.
Oh Imho, that sounds very bitter sweet! Big feelings all around.
But the main question is: how do you feel now?
Thank you Trifles for asking,
I’m still processing it I guess and I’m coming down from the intensity of such a big ‘hit’. I really need to get my mind onto other things, such as Christmas- Eek!
So I’m hoping being busy helps, but I’m prepared that I may hit some lows. Let’s see !
Hi IMHO. Knowing that you may never meet each other again must have been hard.
As you may have seen, I have had my share of relapses during such events.
As others have said, perhaps you can treat the last LO interaction as a happy occurrence, and try to leave it at that? This is what I did when I had that last warm LO interaction.
Imho,
Upon hearing your story, I could not help feel sad… 😢
Mutual LE will linger longer than one-side unrequited LE, please be prepared in mind.
Snow,
Thanks for your empathy and also your words before the event too.
I’m desperately trying
not to replay the scene like some star-crossed lovers that are thwarted from being together. I have a tendency to romanticise things.
I will stay away from certain books and movies ( and poems) for a while !
Imho,
“I’m desperately trying not to replay the scene like some star-crossed lovers that are thwarted from being together. I have a tendency to romanticise things.”
Like I said to ABCD and others many times before: avoid “desperately NOT trying”anything, in any direction. The harder you to push something out of or into your head, that THING gains all power to stay or get into your head/heart. And if you don’t find another way to let out your emotions and memories to breathe (just watching the replays) without getting judged, they would make you feel “sick” inside or build pressure like volcano in formation.
I used to judge and berate myself for replaying all the scenes, positive and negative, when they surface at any given time, here or outside LwL — they still replay stuff occurred from 7 years to 7 months ago (literally 10-100 times over!) But nowadays the volume and intensity of replaying has been reduced — the brain gets bored to replay any kind of same thing in the past — it’s a law of psychology.
It’s totally okay to romanticizing or beautifying our experiences inside our head — making things we feel/think uniquely meaningful, as long as we don’t act them out unwisely. In your case, it’s IMPOSSIBLE not to
Feel/See like “some star-crossed lovers that are thwarted from being together”…. I even feel that sometimes without a base like yours.
So feel and watch your experienced pains and joys when they visit you again and again, heed my words — IT WILL HAPPEN! Eventually, they will settle in some places inside your Self without disturbance but peaceful smiles…
Thanks Snow, and yes you are right not to fight against feelings and thoughts too much or else it will manifest in some way. I guess it’s like grieving, one needs to let it happen and not suppress.
However, I identify there is also a need not to over indulge or withdraw into one’s own mind and thoughts too much, which I can tend to do.
Staying present and active in the real world can be hard for some of us introverts, but I know it is important to do so.
Imho,
It’s indeed a grieving time for a huge bitter sweet loss; but also a memorial time, for its existence (length?), mutual emotional reciprocation, although it can’t be fruited in other realistic forms. It existed, danced, fruited and then passed, like all other human affairs… this universe is far from ideal (monogamy laws 😏)
“However, I identify there is also a need not to over indulge or withdraw into one’s own mind and thoughts too much, which I can tend to do.”
It’s not just you, alone! Without such a need, we can’t be identified as Limerent or even find the LwL sanctuary in the first place.
“Staying present and active in the “real world can be hard for some of us introverts, but I know it is important to do so.”
So come here to vent your pains out! Writing, especially journalistic/therapeutic writing has more “magical” healing power (still less than dreams) than many people realize or acknowledge.
ABCD – I think finding out unpleasant characteristics, or at least characteristics that are unattractive and you really can’t excuse away is VERY helpful for some of us who struggle with not wanting to dislike LOs.
With hindisght I can definitely pinpoint two of these moments as two (out of 3) LEs neared the end. The question is whether this drove the end of the LE, or being able to see these characteristics is actually a sign that the LE is coming to an end. Would you say you were not aware of these quantities before, or there was no way to know of them?
Hi Heebie Jeebies.
Though I always put LO on a pedestal, I did not know about these traits earlier. I do not really know LO well.
In any case, I am using this info to help me move on.
“The question is whether this drove the end of the LE, or being able to see these characteristics is actually a sign that the LE is coming to an end”.
Great question. I would say, a bit of both.
Hi ABCD,
that sounds great! Once one really acknowledges sides of LO that are not that attractive, one is a good few steps out of the mess. Of course these sides are not hidden before, it’s just that finally one‘s mind is a bit more clear to see them neutrally. It’s a bit mean because we all have faults and not-so-attractive side, but I would shamelessly use it as a tool to get yourself out if this LE!
Mila, ABCD
Not meant to be discouraging here to say that for some limerents, seeing dark sides of LO (it’s always there), still can’t kill their LE. As discussed many times before, LE is NOT about LO or their personalities traits, it’s about us — either unresolved issues or pure pair-bonding drives (that have their own eyes). We need to find out how we’re sucked into it in the first place, removing causes is the key and prevents future ones.
But I do think seeing LO’s unattractive treats can help us keep distance (not seeking contacts) from them, through which our LE hopefully could decrease on its gradually reduced “diet”, if a starvation is not possible.
Hi Snow. You make some astute observations.
To be honest, I am trying to suppress my feelings for LO. Will they every go away? I do not have an answer to that. For now, my goal is to reach some sort of steady state where I can function well.
Once I start to function well, I can try and figure out my internal issues that lead to LE.
ABCD,
“Trying to suppress” any emotions would SURELY lead you or any of us there, that’s common psychology, DrL talked about it in one of his articles. LE: 📣 can you find/link that blog article?
Nagging again: Just let your motions come in, calmly acknowledge and watch them, and they will leave. All emotions, LE or not, work this way. The more one wants to hold onto them (joys, exaltations), the faster they slip away (Einstein’s relative theory); the harder one pushes them, they resist or even push back (the physics principle) .
Internal issues can be worked at anytime, even during LE. Once I got my cptsd sorted and dealt, my LE was lessened… Removing a root/cause, symptoms would be gone.
Hi Mila. I agree, I do not really like focusing on the unpleasant sides of people. As you said, we may have some less than ideal characteristics.
However, I really need to get out of this LE, so I will take whatever tool I can use!
” It seems like some remnant of LE shall always remain in me, and that’s fine.”
ABCD
For me, it is being able to discern what is rumination and what is recalling a memory. I usually can tell the difference between remembering how she made me FEEL and remembering an actual memory. I don’t want to forget the memories I made with her anymore than I would want to forget memories of any other person I liked that has moved on from me. It’s the self-awareness to stop at the memory and not let it turn into rumination.
You seem to be making great progress. And in your case you also seem to have a LO that is being cooperative for you both to get to a healing place. Keep on keeping on brother. We all got your back here.
Hi Adam. Your rumination vs memory recall theory is very helpful. I need to be careful that my thoughts of LO stay within the boundary of the latter, and not cross over into the former.
Thanks for your wishes and support brother, wish the same for you. You are absolutely right. In a way, it looks like both LO and I are acting in a similar manner. This is a good thing, thanks for pointing it out.
Adam,
I totally second you here: not to forget or wipe out sweet memories of interactions with xLO in reality or in dreams during LE or later.
Everything is impermanent, so let the past stay in past, and focus on Now and Here or we’d miss what’s happening under our nose w/o SO. A lot of unexpected could take place at any given moment.
Because I’ve succeeded to let all the good LE memory sit on the back burner, I could relaxingly enjoy harmless flirting with a chatting portrait, cutie Joe, which does not devalue my good memories of my LE.
ABCD,
Your progress seems good. I would urge you to listen to what Snow says about not trying to push anything too hard, or it could backfire. Better to just be more like “oh, this thought is here now” (almost watch yourself like an observer) and wait for it to pass.
Can I ask – in as much detail as you’re willing to say, how did these less desirable sides of LO become visible to you?
Hi LaR. Yes, I will take Snow’s advice on not suppressing or fighting my feelings, letting them come and go. Intuitively, this technique makes sense, as we are not bottling up our emotions.
LO’s less desirable sides were told to me by a friend. Well, to be honest, they were visible to me too, but I was too awestruck.
So, here goes with my massive limerence dream. Grab yourselves some popcorn or nachos. I will have a go at some interpretation as I go, but Snow (and other amateur psychologists), please feel free to contribute to the analysis.
Part 1: I’d got myself in a pickle at work by over-committing. I am famous for this at work anyway, and everyone close to me knows me for it. Anyway, in the dream, my over commitment caused everything in one day to go wrong (because I wasn’t prepared and was rushing). It ended in an argument with a co-worker (a fictional one, not known) over how my actions had let him down. Throughout this process LO was not quite beside me, but was there, one step behind if you like, but being supportive (this is absolutely behaviour I would anticipate from her at work). But she was not quite reachable. She wanted me to calm down so we could just hang out together whereas I continued being frantic about all the work. Had I calmed down, she would have been reachable.
Interpretation: my sub-conscious is telling me it is time for the limerence for her to end?
In my conscious, nowadays I feel aspects of it calming down and the relationship returning to more of a natural friendship, when I look at interactions between us. Something happened yesterday which absolutely rubber-stamps her trust and belief in me as a friend. But (and this is a crucial bit), I don’t think what is playing out between us is objectively any different to how it was when I was at lim-max levels – I can just see it differently now, and through a less wishful lens. But some other part of my brain – the part that is attracted to her and thinks of her endlessly when I am not around her – simply refuses to catch up. I feel OK (even with the idea we will never be more than friends) as long as I have her close to me (semi regular in person interaction), but I suffer when we are not close – as in the time period coming down the pipes. The dream might be trying to convince that second part of my mind to catch up?
Dream part 2 – here is where it gets weird and I haven’t tried to analyse it yet …
The guy I had upset at work shouted loudly at me and ran off down a concrete slope to avoid further conversation. Trying to catch him, I descended the slope on all fours, scraping both knees open into bleeding wounds in the process. When I got to the bottom of the hill, my parents, brother and SO were all there, having come for a surprise visit, and were disgusted at me for being angry and for my antics/bleeding. I also saw LO coming down the hill after me but unsure whether to keep her distance. She is the one I really wanted to go to for help. I go off to try and have it out with the guy who shouted at me, fail at it, and head off to clean up my wounds.
When I get back, I find that LO has joined my family group and is in animated but cordial conversation with them. Something seems to have been said between them to question what’s going on with LO and me. I find that she has told the group she is a lesbian and that she is married to a woman, and that I see her as my gay best friend (clarification – LO is definitely not gay or bisexual in reality). My Mum has fallen for this line, but not my Dad or brother (they are ‘onto me’ and tell it to me through judging eyes). SO knew it wasn’t true anyway, as (like in real life) she knows who LO is, and the nature of the friendship between me and her. But she questions why LO is following me around at work and is claiming to be gay.
The dream then drifts off into other family matters that would be of less interest here.
Jung, eat your heart out…
Wow, LaR, this is a very interesting dream. I am happy to note that aspects of your LE are now calming down. With me, now I am quite all right with the prospect of not seeing LO frequently, we were not friends at any point anyways. I am really interested in seeing how our next interaction goes, how I react, how she reacts. Let’s see.
Speaking of dreams, I also had a couple of them recently. In dream #1, LO was in my house with a bunch of other people, don’t remember who they were. I do recall that I went in the particular room where all were sitting, and just did an exit without saying anything, also disappointed that LO also said nothing.
Anyways, next instant, there is another lady in the house, doing dished in the kitchen. She is a famous personality. The two of us chat for a good amount of time, and then I leave my house, happy and content.
Dream #2: I am dropping my kid to the school bus. The kid forgets something, so I am running towards the bus. LO and a friend of hers are standing shouting my kids name. I reach the bus, and take my kid out. Both of us walk past LO, and I pretty much ignore and walk right past.
Dream #2 preceded dream #1.
Cheers.
LaR, My instinctive thoughts on your dream: You are a little bewildered and embarrassed by your crazy antics: anger and running around (i.e. limerence – even though you haven’t acted anything out outside your own head). You feel that other people would judge you because of it. (Other people in your dream = yourself)
And ha, the whole “gay best friend” comes from a thought of yours that you wrote on here earlier. (How she might see you similarly as a gay best friend, i.e. platonic!). And again you are being judged because of LO, i.e. your own subconscious is judging you.
I think the most important thing about dreams is how they made you feel. And it sounds like you felt judged and slightly embarrassed? That’s probably a good sign – that you’re ready to get rid of things that make you feel that way.
Based on Jung, dreams have more roles than just telling how the dreamer is feeling. One can discover one’s authentic Self — light and shadow, through one’s dreams, based on one’s own readings, w/o psychologists’ help.
Then, dreams could also help rein some over willed/wished mind.
LaR,
A quick response here to your dreams —
I agree with Trifles’ instinct. Your subconscious was finding excuses for your LO to be “legitimately” (being gay) included in your realistic family; otherwise, you would feel guilty.
My immediate reaction towards your dream#1, is about your protector #24, which I suspected a while ago when I asked about your feelings of being a peacemaker-multitasker-savior to all… Now, your subconscious is telling you, you can’t help/please all, and if you try, you’d end up hurting yourself while your helping target does not even appreciate or need your “saving”.
Now, my suggestion is to peek at/search which Vulnerability is hiding behind #23, #24 Protector. All protectors function to protect one or more of our Wounds/fears.
The crawling to the point of bleeding could be the physical/visual manifestation of how much effort we put into our LO. I know like a moth to the flame anything she asked me to do for her I would. To the point of both physical and emotional exhaustion.
That you were crawling to your family AWAY from LO might mean that you would like them to find out about LO so you can then confront them about it to ease the strain keeping up with your family and LO. We only have so much energy to give out. And when we split it between two parties it drains us to the point we really do want it to end.
But I’ll end with the “but what do I know” meme just in case I was totally off. 🙂
I know when I finally let go, I had a very specific dream about my accepting that she was gone and that I had to move on.
I met her at a cookout that the company organized. I was excited to talk to her and in conversation I told her that I had a gift for her that I never gave her when she was at work. So I ran to my truck to get it and when I came back tried to give it to her. “I can’t take that Adam. I’m sorry.” Then her gentleman friend walked up and took her hand. They started to walk away and she turned her head over her shoulder; “Goodbye Adam.” And they “fairy tale” walked off into the misty forest and I was left standing there. And then I woke up.
Trifles, Snow, Adam.
Thank you all for your ideas abour the dream. They all sound pretty feasible. There is a lot there that adds up to feelings of judging myself and wanting to be move on and be free from the duplicity and the giving of too much to two people, separately, and the self judgement that goes with it.
Some part of my brain (T part) just yearns to be free of the prison that limerence holds me in – as the dream showed. But the F part just refuses to catch up. Still, l am like a moth to a flame with her and see signs of reciprocation which stop it calming down fully. Yet it is calmer than it was, for sure. Maybe I should celebrate that side of it, not ruminate on the bit of the process still to go. I don’t think I can ever want to be free of my MFF in my life enough to see NC through, to be honest. I just want rid of the limerent feelings.
In an update on my texting angst from last week, we recently had a very touching (though entirely appropriate) au revoir into the NC in person bit. The way that went stands me in the best stead for the holidays that any temporary ‘ending’ could. The next few days might be tough (experience tells me) so apologies in advance if I am rambling on here a fair bit! Thank you all for being a support network.
Adam – your closure / moving on dream is very stark and clear!
LaR, oh that sounds great that your worries about holiday NC seem to have resolved themselves, even a little and in such a nice way!
“I have not chosen LwL at their expense (only at the expense of time alone with myself and my thoughts – which probably says quite a lot in itself).”
Now you sound a lot like TO when I called him out about texting me so much! When I replied that “I guess that’s good if you don’t then spend any time thinking about me outside of texting”… He then backtracked. 😅 I’m not saying LwL is to you what I am to him. 😅 I just had to note the uncanny similarity – and turn the conversation around to me! 🙈 I also wonder if I should be someplace else instead of LwL – maybe there’s a “texters anonymous” group. Or if there isn’t, there should be!
Now back to finishing up the last remains of work…
Trifles,
I’m quite (ahem) amoosed by that parallel you drew!
Of course, we both know TO spends a helluva lot more time thinking about you than just when he sends the texts! He probably thinks how to make the texts witty and appealing. It sounds like he’s more (ahem) hooked on the texting of the two of you? Out of interest, what % of the time would you say he instigates text exchanges vs you instigating?
Sounds an interesting week in Trifle-land with those two coworkers. You said the first (who the universe always sits you next to 😉) is out of the question (married) – is the second remotely viable?
“Now back to finishing up the last remains of work…”
Same here. I so can’t be bothered to either .. too much else to be doing to work! If you are good at finishing last remains, I still have the beef trifle going for you to smoothie-ise.
Yep, I would have so much of Christmas preparations to do! But there’s always the weekend.
“Out of interest, what % of the time would you say he instigates text exchanges?”
I’d say he instigates almost 90% of the time. I’m old-fashioned that way 😉 – and got tired after chasing xLO bloody-kneed!? But I am often the one who would keep the conversation going longer when we stumble on an interesting topic. He’s more about touching base often.
“is the second remotely viable?”
Ha ha, no, unavailable and also unethical (due to his position at work) – the typical double-whammy of the few people I meet. And yes, just one of those would be enough.
I was close to developing a crush for the first-mentioned but then I found out something about him that turned the crush off quickly. Nothing bad, probably the opposite – I found out just how unavailable he is. I’m sure he just innocently likes me and likes talking with me. It’s cute how also in meetings when we want to gauge another person’s reaction to what is being discussed, we just reflexively glance at each other across the room. Oh, here I go again… But I just realised that in the future we will see even less of each other. That’s a shame – it’s always nice to have colleagues that you gel with.
And those darn beef trifles! Perhaps give them to the welder – in his dank, lightless and showerless chamber – for Christmas lunch?
Trifles,
A couple of those points you made are of interest for the whole male versus female mindset on these things …
“It’s cute how also in meetings when we want to gauge another person’s reaction to what is being discussed, we just reflexively glance at each other across the room.”
You see, this is the sort of thing that drives me totally down rabbit holes. You wouldn’t need two guesses to know who the only person is that I can *really* do that with in a meeting. We are super-effective at it. But I think (and I know I stereotype) that often women can just enjoy that for what it is. Men (certainly me) tend to take it as evidence as some kind of cosmic connection with the woman and wonder if the relationship is ‘something else’. I don’t know why this is, I just know that it is. Of all of the things that I have to disbelieve to get out of the limloop for MFF, the strength and depth of our eye contact is the most difficult one. It feels like it is on an entire other plain. I can’t experience that without feeling “there is something more here”. Short of not looking at her, I don’t know what I can do! Some of the other women on LwL have suggested that it just doesn’t work like that for you ladies. What do you think? 👁👁🗨👻👻
“I’d say he instigates almost 90% of the time. I’m old-fashioned that way”
It is pretty encouraging (if you want it to continue to happen, of course) that he instigates 90%. If I was instigating 90%, I’d assume I was being a nuisance or pestering too much and I’d pull back. MFF doesn’t instigate that much, but I then respond in kind by not over-instigating. But if I do get her on something she finds interesting it will be back and forth for days on end. But then could be radio silence for days on end. It’s an unusual one. But we haven’t really had to negotiate a text relationship as we have the in-person dimension, and because of that I can usually just ignore any reactions to text-based matters.
Hope you got the remnants of the work done (still trying here, but procrastinating – can you tell?). In good news, the welder has taken the beef trifle. If he doesn’t have ‘facilities’ out there in the shed, as is rumoured, I’d better get security on the door of the inn for Friday evening I reckon.
Communicating with the eyes in meetings I think is very normal behavior for women. We like to gauge others’ reactions. And we could do this with anyone who we feel is in our corner. But then if something else is (accidentally) communicated in those glances is another thing. I can see how easy it is to read something into eye contact. And I at least feel like my eyes give too much away. And if some LwL women are to be believed, during my “dangerous era” I am now subconsciously giving appraising or lusty looks at every semi-attractive man, and that’s why I get so much back. So my eye contact cannot be trusted at the moment!
But otherwise those looks could just mean that you are on the same wavelength.
It was actually funny in the meeting because on one side, one person was trying to catch my eye to get support for the points he was trying to make – while the other was catching my eye to communicate: “can you believe this guy?!” or something like that. 😀
It seems that, with that one colleague, when we are in the same place we kind of keep tabs on where the other one is. I think that’s how we always eventually gravitate toward each other. Or maybe it’s just me, I have to know where the cute guys are!
You might have that same thing of feeling “in sync” in some way?
“If I was instigating 90%, I’d assume I was being a nuisance or pestering too much and I’d pull back.”
Well, we had that discussion of whether it’s too much and ended up not changing much (except limiting the late night chatting). So I suppose he feels confident that he’s not annoying me.
I sure hope you’re out of the office by now! And I’m starting to feel a little sorry for the poor welder…
While bringing the beef trifle to the welder, don’t forget to slip in a bottle of shaving cream— the famous Australian brand!
“But I think (and I know I stereotype) that often women can just enjoy that for what it is. Men (certainly me) tend to take it as evidence as some kind of cosmic connection with the woman and wonder if the relationship is ‘something else’.”
Oh God yes for me too. And that’s women looking at or making eye contact with me. Hell, I was getting dressed one morning this week and I caught my wife “checking me out” as I was taking off my shirt I slept in and putting a new one on. And my mind goes right to ….*wink wink*
When she would make and hold prolonged eye contact when we would be talking, even if it was strictly about work, it would seem like she was trying to say something else with her eyes. I think it’s our punishment from God for Adam eating the fruit too. Overthinking what’s going on in women’s heads through their eyes.
Or when women do that cute like “shy innocent” thing where they are looking at you while you talk and then when you look up and make eye contact they kinda look away but still kinda keep contact. Dear God ….. something about the eyes.
LaR, Adam,
Some women’s quick glances, not even a gaze, can make you two naked dancing in the rain 🌧️ 🕺🏿 — watch out what you wish for….
https://youtu.be/p47fEXGabaY?si=9Lx1-CfY7y8TFIXQ — Livin’ La Vida Loca
Gentle Adam,
My order of tonight is French champagne, is that okay? You do need to bring Mamma, though, so as not to end up striping your white shirt and jeans off under skylines..
Come to the biggest town
rockin’ the night along…
I’m shy and neurodivergent, so eye contact from me is probably more meaningful—if it wasn’t accidental. I’m convinced that things took a dramatic turn with the LO last year after I turned and glanced at him one day. There must’ve been something in my eyes that he saw without me meaning to “transmit” it. An hour later, he sat at my table, didn’t speak to me, but I caught him watching me. I could feel a shift in the weeks after.
SL,
The same with me in reality. Shy and afraid to look into others’ eyes : it’s also rude in COO to look into speakers’ eyes.
When I was working with the EAP counselor, I told her that I could spot an unhappy woman a mile away. She came back with,
“Not all of them.”
We locked eyes. I almost asked if there was something she wanted to tell me, but I was looking to solve a problem not create a new problem, so I didn’t.
At the end, LO #2 made the comment of how my eyes would light up when I saw her but now my eyes were dead.
Welder update.
Snow, I’m glad the mouthwash and cologne seem to have worked their trick on him. Don’t keep us in suspense too long about that dream …
I offered him the shaving cream but he won’t take it. He mumbled something barely intelligible about ‘needing his brows to protect his britches’.
The shower installation is beyond me and nobody else has offered. I’ve got a plumber coming down over the weekend to sort it.
The welder has been drinking in the Amoor’s Inn this evening. He keeps complaining of a dodgy stomach and something about a trifle.
I do worry about him.
Last night I dreamed that I went to (work place) again —
Dream 1 — It was the in a warm spring day, the last day of the semester. The sun was nice, and tons of students, almost shoulder to shoulder, walked up and down this shallow hilly orange-brick pavement (like a German town I visited). I think I was supposed to visit my colleague-friend [still working there in reality]
Suddenly ET appeared out of nowhere in the middle the crowd 2 meters away in that familiar pale-brick cotton jacket (a head taller than most, 193cm), walking uphill towards me; I was so surprised and smiled (I felt my heart was beating fast).
He approached me and began to answer my inquiry, but I could not understand a few words he mumbled, so just smiled facing the sunlight. Seeing my bewildered face, he suddenly grabbed my shoulders and bent me down backwards— almost like the famous photo of “the sailor’s kiss” on 42nd street of New York.
This time, I smelled subtle cologne and tasted passionate, lingering kiss… [dreams were so real, in which one could remember tastes and smell but could not describe them just like in reality]. I was first a bit shocked, then embarrassed [worry someone would recognized me, especially 👽 ], finally I was over the Moon!
It did not last long (2 minutes?) before he suddenly vanished into god knows where. Nobody seemed to have notice, the stream of people kept moving around us. I did not get upset but still surprised after being intoxicated with such a dramatic public gesture!
Then I went to a big dining hall, but only saw my colleague’s husband sitting at a table. He told me that she still had not come back from proctoring her exams… So I sat down to wait for her return…
dream2 was about this lady colleague friend, somewhat (ir)relevant to the first one — she’s a mutual LTR of ET and his SO, and at some point (still?), she was confusingly “interested” in me. I like her personality and tastes a lot, but I am just not a lesbian….
LaR, thank you for leaving mouthwash and cologne in the shed! Tomorrow when the plumber goes there to install a shower, please have him bring the welder a titanium lock for zippers of his britches….
Stomach ache? Only Trifles’ most intelligent smoothies could soothe that discomfort….
I was HIGH, ruminating the dream all day… now my eyelids are fighting with each other… 🥱
Winter Solstice
Michael McClure
1932 –2020
W
I
T
H
I
N
endless space
in tiny explosions of gasoline
my consciousness hardens into a wall.
I AM SEPARATE
from plum blossoms and mountains:
aching teeth become movies
as I grow
young again.
Dark hair
and eyebrows
S
W
I
R
L
in delighted delusion
BIG MEMORIES OF PLEASURE
enwrap a mind
as substantial
as
a
drift
of
snowflakes
onto a warm hood;
and less intelligent
than the thin
black
spider in the morning sink
before breakfast time.
Your smile is my kindness
and it thrills me
I
HAVE
NEVER
BEEN
SO
REAL
before
***********
“BIG MEMORIES OF PLEASURE
enwrap a mind
as substantial”
Your kiss in a delighted slumber
thrilled my flapping red wings 🐦🔥
like ❄️ snowflakes ❄️
Trifles,
I know well that feeling in a meeting where a person is looking at you to try and seek your disagreement with the person you are actually in agreement with, and who is looking at you from the other side!! You were off-base that I work in HR, but I still always end up mediating a room, whether I ask to or not.
I don’t think you/women will often ‘accidentally’ mean to communicate more than the looking for solidarity / same wavelength in a meeting. Truth is – men are just terrible at mixing ‘solidarity’ with ‘I am madly in love with you’! Our brains aren’t wired right to decode it. We see what we want to see as well.
“You might have that same thing of feeling “in sync” in some way?”
I’m glad you asked. Pull up a pew and let’s chat!
I’m going to resist any spiritual ‘twin flame’ type explanation (I could explain it better by an MBTI combo), but honestly, it can feel like that – and the foundations of this were put down way pre-LE. If we were in a room of hundreds, we would still both know where the other was, and would be likely to be helping each other navigate that situation (which neither relishes) in different ways, whether in physical proximity or not.
We are complementary in meetings and social situations, in that my weaknesses are her strengths and her weaknesses are my strengths. So there is a lot to be had by operating as a combo, and we both know / have said it. There is also an acknowledged pact that if we can clearly see the other is struggling with something across a room, we will seek to intervene to help them out of it.
I am sorry if the above sounds ‘gushy’ (Snow might say I was boasting). But they are just facts of the matter – facts that I have no other outlet to express than here. I have said to you before about ‘finding your people’ and holding onto them. You will probably see from the above even more clearly: 1. why I want to hold on to my MFF, 2. why I need not to be limerent for her, 3. why the two are hard to separate!
The other bit I have had to learn to deal with since she was single (and I wasn’t) is that from time to time she’ll flirt with other men. Limerence kicked me in the pants with that a couple of times. But I can kind of reconcile it now – what right would I have not to?? – and I try never to be ‘judgey’ about it. But how can my face not be betraying some of how I really feel in those situations?
I think the ultimate acid test our relationship will ever face is if and when she does get together with someone else. I will want to be pleased for her, but my biology will see to it that I will dislike the guy and find him not worthy of her. But she is a very confident and informed judge of who is worthy of her anyway … so I would at least be able to trust that side, even if I didn’t like it.
Thank you for ‘listening’ – another free drink earned for that 😀
LaR, that doesn’t sound like gushing. It’s a very good explanation of why you exhibit all three points that you mentioned. It does sound like you have someone “in your corner” and understandably don’t want to give that up.
Ha, in my example from last week I was actually playing for both sides a bit! The higher-up most likely considered me his most probable ally and seemed desperate to catch my eye. He was introducing some changes that many wouldn’t like. I didn’t give him his validation because I had to stand strong for our team. So I kept my head down and tried for a neutral expression when forced to catch eyes. (While probably accidentally giving both the once-over! Or the shy “I’m not looking at you” look that Adam likes 😜 – while trying. to. look. neutral!)
“Thank you for ‘listening’ – another free drink earned for that”
Thanks, I believe I’ll try the rom con hielo while I bake a Christmas cake.
I like it when the underlings can ‘work a meeting’ so much with the body language and eyes that the higher-ups u-turn on a bad decision. Boss at my place literally *craves* validation for all he does, and it is sometimes possible for the aforementioned teamwork approach to quash nonsense at source, purely because of his insecurities.
Being on the other side of the table is a truly dark art, though. I have to sell daft ideas from above to my staff and end up just squashed in the sandwich.
You lost me at ‘rom com hielo’ I’m afraid. Not heard of it.If you want me to pour you that, I need some guidance.
You are leaving the christmas cake late. The type we have needs to ‘mature’ and be periodically ‘watered’ (so to speak – ‘gotten drunk’ is more accurate). SO – many times over a better party planner than me – made it a month or more ago. I hope yours turns out well!
That squashed feeling (selling daft ideas nailed it!) is unfortunately familiar to me. But I’m sure you’re good at it!
My cake turned out great. It’s a much simpler cake than your English one – I prefer no fruit or raisins in coffee cake anyway. 😉 But I was inspired by Enrique’s lady friend’s order and splashed some rum in there.
“If you want me to pour you that, I need some guidance.”
Lol, it takes a couple of cubes of ice and drops them in a lowball glass, then it pours the well-aged dark rum over it. (Sorry for the Silence of the Lambs-esque delivery.)
You must not have watched the video. I recommend you watch it, it’s much better watching for the straight men than the women anyway. (Spoiler: no redheads)
…And I’m talking about the “El Baño” video that Snow linked (not “Silence of the Lambs” 😅).
Which video?! I lost track of all the traffic in here last night and it has been too tricky to have a catch up Latin American party during the day (might have led to awkward questions from SO, as Ricky and Enrique are not my usual genre of choice!). If there are no redheads in it, then I need this made easy 🤣
I was guessing it wasn’t a fruitcake. It’s not quite the done thing in ‘France’, I guess 🇫🇷 I’m glad it turned out well 🥮
It’s a slight genre change, but I’m sliding a little known but brilliant Christmas song onto the jukebox for you:
Bellowhead, Christmas Bells:
https://youtu.be/b5YNis7eVLM?feature=shared
I just love how good of a time they all seem to be having in the video!
This one:
https://youtu.be/gu9_m0vm7fM?si=KxNvj4_AGPAIFvCW — Bad 🐇
And look at it as a way of showing new sides of yourself to SO. You can try a few salsa steps while watching as well. Or tell her you watch the videos “just for the ladies”. 😉
And thanks for the video – though I was expecting something more in line with the new image of the Inn (sexier).
(You see, it’s working – we a already lured Limerent Nurse back in!)
But I can see that being a hit on the moor, amongst the welder and his pals.
Trifles, LaR ,
You two need to move back to the center of L’Amoor — Christmas Limerence, to attend our “new/returned” patrons… not stuck in this private corner all day along whispering…
I need to get out of my bed… 🛏️
Oh Snow. Really, I am just hiding in this deep dark corner to try and keep her away from the welder’s ‘charms’. There you are, you made me say it.
Talking about dreams, the utterly chaotic universe seems to balanced —
My dreams keep making new narratives to compensate nothing of the sort that could ever remotely happen. Now I’m going to ruminate over it, when you guy do with your MFF/TO/LO in reality.
It’s so detailed and logical in the dream that no mind could doubt its “reality”. If I pen it down, it becomes even more real…
I need to get ready for a tutoring session, later.
A spoiler – that bottle of mouthwash worked… it’s so sweet 😊
Winter Stores
Charlotte Brontë
We take from life one little share,
And say that this shall be
A space, redeemed from toil and care,
From tears and sadness free.
And, haply, Death unstrings his bow,
And Sorrow stands apart,
And, for a little while, we know
The sunshine of the heart.
Existence seems a summer eve,
Warm, soft, and full of peace;
Our free, unfettered feelings give
The soul its full release.
A moment, then, it takes the power
To call up thoughts that throw
Around that charmed and hallowed hour,
This life’s divinest glow.
But Time, though viewlessly it flies,
And slowly, will not stay;
Alike, through clear and clouded skies,
It cleaves its silent way.
Alike the bitter cup of grief,
Alike the draught of bliss,
Its progress leaves but moment brief
For baffled lips to kiss.
The sparkling draught is dried away,
The hour of rest is gone,
And urgent voices, round us, say,
“Ho, lingerer, hasten on!”
And has the soul, then, only gained,
From this brief time of ease,
A moment’s rest, when overstrained,
One hurried glimpse of peace?
No; while the sun shone kindly o’er us,
And flowers bloomed round our feet, —
While many a bud of joy before us
Unclosed its petals sweet, —
An unseen work within was plying;
Like honey-seeking bee,
From flower to flower, unwearied, flying,
Laboured one faculty, —
Thoughtful for Winter’s future sorrow,
Its gloom and scarcity;
Prescient to-day of want to-morrow,
Toiled quiet Memory.
’Tis she that from each transient pleasure
Extracts a lasting good;
’Tis she that finds, in summer, treasure
To serve for winter’s food.
And when Youth’s summer day is vanished,
And Age brings winter’s stress,
Her stores, with hoarded sweets replenished,
Life’s evening hours will bless.
********
When exaltation, reverie, euphoria vanish,
LC, NC bring blizzard’s stress,
Hoarded bitters and sweets shall in time pass,
LE-free evening hours will bless.
🐦🔥
❄️ ✨ Happy 2024 Winter’s Solstice! ✨❄️
Hi IMHO.
” Without going into details he said quite some things that I was not expecting, which could prolong my ruminating, but I need to not let this happen, because it will lead to nowhere land or worse”.
Back in the day, I had plenty of those with my LO. They led to the stretching of my LE.
I had to struggle and fight quite a bit to reach where I am. I am sure you can do it too. We are all rooting for you.
Right now, I am just planning and prepping for my next LO interaction. In the past, some of these have led to relapses. Lets see how I handle this one, if/when it occurs.
ABCD,
Yes. Why do they do that ?!
I wonder if they regret this and then they pull back as a consequence.
But let’s not wonder, it is of no matter anyway.
You have the issue of intermittent face to face encounters which probably makes it more challenging than if they were more predictable.
However, you seem to be figuring it out to be best prepared for the next if/when, as best you can.
I salute you.
Thank you for rooting for me.
Hi IMHO.
Yeah. It may make sense in my case that LO did something, and then pulled back because she may have regretted it (due to SOs).
Actually, it was very hard to read LO. The hot – cold cycles were like clockwork, hot – cold – hot – cold, and so on.
Anyway, as you said, no point analyzing all this, its futile.
For now, my strategy is when I see LO, I greet her and we make small talk if the talk is possible, and that’s it.
So my work day was my boss (who works out of the office LO did) came to the city to take his son to the airport and came by my office. I was talking to him and he got a call. “It’s my ex wife I got to take this.” About a month ago his current with left him; moved out. But they’re still legally married. So I get to hear about a 30 minute one sided conversation of him bitching about his current wife with his ex wife that literally cheated on him. The mother of his child. The woman that betrayed him. And he’s talking relationship advice with her?! Tf dude?!
The funny thing is him all trying to make himself the good guy and his wife the villain in ear shot of an introvert that can remember all the stories he’s told about him and his current wife’s conflicts is like …. dude I remember all that shit. So I’m just nodding my head trying to stay neutral and avoid getting absorbed into the drama. Smh. I’ll never understand most extroverts.
Image management.
Since extroverts are more “out there,” what they project to the world and how people perceive them can be very important to them.
Celebrities and politicians are on the extreme end.
What’s weird to me is he told me his wife left him and moved out. He wouldn’t have had to “image manage” himself if he never told me that in the first place. I would never have known. If Momma and I separated or divorced my co-workers would be the absolute last people I would tell. I actually think a bit less of him knowing what I know about their marriage and how he is now trying to demonize his wife for the sake of his own image. Smh I don’t get that.
My co-workers don’t even know my wife’s or sons’ names. IF and that’s a big IF; if I share something about my private life with them it’s “my wife”, “our oldest son” and “our youngest son”. I try my best to keep my private life just that; private. Ya’ll here know way more about me any most anyone else and that is thanks to anonymity.
My coworkers knew quite a bit about my family.
But, there was a lot going on at the time that required me to take time off, often on short notice.
Letting them in on some details made things around the office easier. When my wife was in rehab, most people knew that she was in the hospital. Only my boss knew which one and why.
Hi Snow. I am replying to your message here.
Yes, I will do what you have suggested. Not fight the feelings, let them come, acknowledge then, and watch them leave. This should make my life easier, I hope.
I also need to figure out my internal dynamics that led to my LE. Will report on this soon. Thanks.
I get still my 👽’s cold-n-hot treatment in my dreams!
So when you get it, just come here to vent it out, it really helps ease or dissipate pains.
Imma curl up with Momma. Dont tell Miss Lovisa im not sober. She is my rock. I feed all four of my cats today. Only one we own. Treated them all to a tuna treat. Tbf LE wouldnt either. I so love you all that you have done for me. Imma put my arms around the woman that i love. Drunk me signs off.
I’m wondering how long limerance lasts for others after you have gone n/c with the LO. It’s been a year for me, but I still obsess about him every day….
For context, he was my married boss, I have a SO, nothing technically ever happened (no disclosure, no EA or PA), but for some reason I fell completely in limerence with him (completely, madly, deeply), and I am convinced that it was mutual. While nothing happened, a lot of unresolved sexual tension etc. Then at some point, he turned against me, which manifested professionally (in terms of being ignored at work, not being given credit for work, being left out of meetings, emails being ignored), which hurt me a lot, and about which I still feel a lot of bitterness.
Thankfully, another job opportunity came up, and I took it (for many reasons, but in part because it was an escape). He barely acknowledged I was leaving, and did not even come to my going away drinks (and so didn’t do the usual thing bosses do when you leave, and say ‘thanks’ publically).
Since I left, I have not reached out to him or been directly in contact; I have however encountered him three times (because we both work in the same sector so our paths still cross), and each time his behaviour varies so much that it confuses me more and messes with my head (the first time at another colleague’s work drinks, ignored me completely; the second time, on a work call in which he was praising me; the third time at a launch of a project that I had commenced and driven, at which he kissed me on the cheek, borderline flirted with me, said we’d meet up again, and then still didn’t give me credit for my work).
I know that I should move on, that I need to move on, but I find it difficult not to think about him every day. I have been disciplined in the sense that I have Not reached out; I do still stalk him online sometimes. Its crazy because I know that he did not treat me well, but still I can’t get over him. And everytime I run into him (like above), it sends me spiralling for days.
I think perhaps the fact that it was this giant unsaid, unresolved thing that makes me keep obsessing. But I don’t know how to get over the obsessing. I think I still hope that somehow it will happen, even though rationally this seems farcical, and anyway completely undesirable (it would also be very bad career wise).
Hi Leeping Lim,
Welcome along! Here you can find lots of folks who understand what you’re going through and can support you.
I’m sorry to hear it still pains you so much. People seem to say that it can be 18 months to 3 years for limerence to burn out (others on here may remember more accurately what DrL says).
I think this time of year pushes it all up to front of mind. Read the new coffeehouse post from DrL today, as it sums it up beautifully. *Wherever* we are in our LE, from the shiny beginnings to the traumatic end times, I think the holidays has this thing in common for every limerent – a feeling of disconnection from someone that their biology really wants them to be connected to, at a time of year when these connections seem to matter. We can’t will those thoughts away, only manage our responses to them when they come.
I’d guess (I’m male so I come from that perspective, but have been very much limerent and still am to a lesser degree) that your LO flipped the switch and distanced from you not because he went off you, but because he liked you too much and felt conflicted.
None of that justifies his behaviour, just explains it a bit. It is hard to hold a pretence/double life for too long – it takes real work and creates self judgement. Well done on going NC for so long. I think his cold-occasional hot behaviour at the end of your time working there, and since, is pretty cruel. Maybe this is contributing to prolonging your long tail of the LE?
I know disclosure would be a minefield and so I wouldn’t recommend it. But I can feel that part of you coming through in your post that thinks “If I could just get it out there, it might help me past it”. I have felt that many times. The “great unsaid” really scrambles the brain, doesn’t it? But the perils of disclosure in your situation are likely greater than the benefits.
Distract yourself as much as possible. Keep doing it – it takes persistence. But also don’t be too harsh on yourself/your thoughts and feelings, as by doing that, you are basically fighting biology (which you can’t win) and prolonging it. Be kind to it while it burns through and it might burn through quicker.
Hi LL, I have a few thoughts from my own experience. I’m reverse of your situation in a way, I’m the boss limerent for my employee going on 3 years. I can’t escape her, and I have to interact with her everyday so NC is not an option for me but I try to practice pretty strict LC where my interactions with her are work related only and somewhat very neutral at that. My days of flirting with her are well over and LC greatly reduces the intensity of my limerence.
Thought one, it is as much likely that he distanced from you for not having feelings but sensing your feelings as him also having feelings. You will go crazy trying to figure that out. Yet the kiss on the cheek thing is weird. Are you from a country where that is common because here in the US it very much is not, especially professionally. Not sure what to make of that.
Thought two, I am of the mindset to just accept the intrusive thoughts as part of you right now but don’t give them power. Just because you have them does not mean you need to be doing something else. They just are and it’s almost impossible to remove them. Accept them and move on without worrying about them.
Thought three, you are not totally NC with LO and this may be feeding the LE in small doses. You have encountered him 3X since leaving and it sounds like encountering him is still possible in the future. I am sure this is playing into prolonging the LE.
Best wishes to you and I commend you for taking action and leaving the job for your own well being.
Thanks Speedwagon and Lim-a-rant.
Speedwagon, that’s a fair point re. not being totally NC actually. At present, though as I said, I have achieved a lot of NC (I no longer work for him, see him everyday or am in contact), equally, such is our professional lives that 1 – as I said, I encountered him x3, also, I hear about him quite a lot (e.g., other colleagues went to work function recently and said ‘oh we ran into X and he was asking after you…’), and also we live close to each other, and occassionally see each other on the commute to work (but then do not acknowledge each other). His wife also works in my current organisation (its a bit the nature of our field that everyone knows each other). So, even if I no longer work with him, I feel like there are reminders all over the place, or altneratively, like there’s always the possibility of just running into him.
And while, I’ll admit my own ulterior motives on some occasions, sometimes, it is genuinely completely random. A couple of weeks ago, I went for lunch with a friend – and he was there in the same cafe! (And I ignored him, and I don’t know if he saw me).
Logistically, beyond what I’ve done, I’m not sure how I could avoid him further, but it is definitely true that the possibility of an encounter dominates my thoughts…
As regards the kiss on the cheek thing – this would be considered unusual here. He does do it with his female friends – I have noticed, so maybe its normal for him? However, in the context of everything that happened with us, i.e. how cold he was towards me/how he ignored me the last time he met me – for me, this felt strange.
I think the last time I met him, and he flirted with me again (and there was that cheek kissing greeting etc), I wondered if on some level I had been put in the box of women he likes to flirt with to make him feel good, and I simultaneously felt disrespected and used (because he then later did not give me credit for my work, in the context of our meeting being the launch of a project that I had developed and made a success). And also, while I need to take responsibility in the fact that I flirted too, also I felt like: what are you playing at? Why do you keep changing how you are with me?
I think your point Speedwagon about going crazy trying to figure out his feelings, and yours Lim-a-rant about the great unsaid scrambling the brain, are so very on point. I know what happened was real, in the sense that I know its impacts on me were real, and I believe that He Did Have Feelings, and I don’t want to diminish what happened just because we didn’t talk about it, because in truth, it upended my life completely.
On the other hand, together the lack of acknowledgement from him, his hugely changeable behaviour, and the absence of any resolution, adds up to creating in me this obsessive desire To Know (what he truly felt).
Sometimes I feel like his behaviour also had the effect of pretending that something wasn’t happening/didn’t happen (and to be fair this would have gone for my behaviour as well), and because when I worked for him, there was a sense that I was playing by his rules. While I understand why we both had to pretend that it didn’t happen, because it was So Real to me, that just made it hurt in a different way.
So I guess, I think Lim-a-rant’s point about the hot-cold beheviour prolonging this, is probably also right. I think I still feel pretty hurt and confused by how he treated me. I remember at some point, he was nice to me on the phone (in the middle of a period when he had been so cold), and I remember that that upset me more than anything. It would have been better if he had been 100% cold, because it was the hope that messed with me.
Thank you both for your advice, and I’m glad your own limerence seems to have reduced a lot, and I wish you well on your own journeys.
LL,
DrL has portrayed in old blogs that the fuel for limerence is ‘intermittent reward’. Like playing a slot machine – it would soon get boring if it never paid out or if it paid out every time. Limerence thrives in the hinterlands between that – putting the money in, not sure when it will pay out. I think that could be prolonging it for you with how he blows hot n cold.
I don’t think he’s being fair. I have an SO but have been limerent for someone else (a close friend) for getting on two years. It may or may not be mutual – don’t know as have never disclosed. I do know the cycle of getting pulled in and then having to self correct. But I have tried to learn to do that within very narrow boundaries either way – not too hot and not too cold, and don’t overanalyse what I’m getting back too much either.
This guy seems to be stretching those boundaries with you too far, be that in a calculated or more innocent way. It isn’t kind.
DrL offers a deprogramming course. I haven’t done it but I wonder it it might help you. The old blog in the archive “when not to disclose” might be one for you to have a look at.
Good luck and do come here to vent with us if you need to!