Another visit to the virtual coffee house of wisdom and camaraderie – where level heads put the world to rights, and wonky heads chitchat about whatever they please and meander wherever their fancy takes them.
Such refuges are welcome when the world is going through turbulent times. So, I thought today we might talk about the US election.
Don’t panic. I’m not a masochist and I don’t want to add to the drama, given this is a site designed to inform and support people through their own personal turbulence with limerence.
But, I do think there is a sideways view of the current “political realignment” (as it’s being carefully described) that can help with the project of living more purposefully.
It’s all about resilience, and the ability to weather trials.
Demoralisation and despair
Since quitting my academic job and going full time on Living with Limerence, I have started to spend time on TwitterX in an attempt to spread the word about limerence to the wider world.
It’s been an education.
Right now, the two sociopolitical tribes in the US are split between triumphalism and devastation. It’s easy to gawp at the fringes on both sides, but even among fairly sensible commentators the reactions are… dramatic.
We appear to be transitioning into either a new Golden Age, or a new Dark Age.
It’s a cliche to say that elections are won in the centre, but it clearly must be true. In both the UK and US there are some areas of the country where support for the two main parties is pretty closely balanced, and that balance swings back or forth in the cultural winds.
Well, unequivocally this year, that swing has been for Trump.
The problem with this outcome is that many people sincerely believe that he intends to usher in a totalitarian regime of fascism, corruption and domination. The Handmaid’s tale made real.
Regardless of whether those fears are rational or irrational, these people are really suffering. Their worldview has been smashed. They feel unable to trust their neighbours, and some are even planning to estrange themselves from family members who voted for Trump.
I can relate. I went through a similar experience in 2016.
Brexit and Trump 1.0
I’ve been an academic for a quarter of a century, and academia is not a politically diverse environment.
In 2016, the UK voted to leave the European Union (”Brexit”), and Trump was elected for the first time. Within my framework for understanding the world, both those outcomes were inconceivable.
I knew precisely one person in my social network who had voted for Brexit, and I thought she’d only done it because her husband had propagandised her into false beliefs. In the university there was a palpable sense of grief and bewilderment after the vote (and a significant amount of anger). The world no longer made sense.
How could more than half our country vote to destroy a hard-won union that facilitated free trade, freedom of movement, and cultural exchange? And how could half of Americans vote for a vulgar, narcissistic blowhard who told ridiculous, self-serving lies?
Many of my friends and colleagues recalibrated their worldview by concluding that our country was populated by racists, idiots and rubes, who had been conned by the manipulative liars in “Vote Leave”.
That didn’t work for me.
When I encountered Brexit voters they seemed like ordinary people with sincere fears about the negative effects of immigration, undemocratic intergovernmental law-making, and a suspicion of elites who considered themselves above the people they supposedly served.
Brexit voters weren’t motivated by selfishness, stupidity, or hate as far as I could tell. Many of my academic colleagues, in contrast, seemed to really hate them.
Understanding other people
I just couldn’t accept that more than half of the country were racist idiots. That was even more destabilizing to my mental model of the world than an alternative explanation: I was in a cultural bubble.
In an attempt to remedy that flaw, I started to read more books from the right-wing side of the political spectrum. Embarrassingly, in retrospect, I didn’t even realise there was a right wing intellectual tradition. The right wing were anti-intellectual by definition – such was my immersion in the academic monoculture.
Some of the highlights of that project were reading Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, James Baldwin (rather counter-intuitively, as he certainly wasn’t right wing), Roger Scruton, and Heather MacDonald. I certainly didn’t agree with them all, but once I had developed the skill of cutting off my thought-terminating liberal indignation about some of the claims being made, I actually started to understand their point of view.
And they had a point.
The most consequential book for me was The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. I’ve blogged about this before. It elaborates on how people genuinely have different moral foundations, and so view the world in importantly different ways. I found it had enormous explanatory power, and really got me to the point of understanding how two people with the same basic facts and information could reach opposite moral conclusions.
Not unlike the two tribes of limerents and non-limerents, the failure to recognise that people are built differently leads to mismatched expectations and a conflict of visions.
Where was I?
I didn’t mean to start writing a memoir. I bring this all up to make the point that one of the best remedies for the despair and demoralisation I felt when my worldview convulsed, was to deliberately and dispassionately try to understand my “opponents” better.
In doing so, I ironically (but healthily) realised that we weren’t opponents at all – they were also trying to do their best to keep going in a challenging world, and improve the community they lived in.
An important stage in living with more purpose is to begin to notice when powerful emotional drives are disorganising your thoughts and affecting your behaviour. For me, limerence was the obvious example, of course, but the demoralisation and indignation I felt when the world stopped making sense were other cases.
It’s hard to make good decisions in a state of overarousal and stress. Believing that half of your neighbours are selfish assholes driven by dark motives takes an enormous psychic toll.
One of the adages that is common in right wing circles is:
The right thinks the left are mistaken, the left thinks the right are evil.
But the opposite can also be true – it doesn’t take long to find commentators who think that woke ideology is evil, and some prominent public figures on the left are “literal demons”.
The left and right have always been wary of each other, but in my lifetime the shift from “common cause but different methods” to “implacable enemies” has worsened significantly. I suspect that this is one of the causes of the societal demoralisation that seems to have been growing over the last decade or so (heightened, no doubt, by covid).
For an individual, reversing this demoralisation (remoralisation? respair?) is not unlike the shift in mindset needed to recover from limerence.
How you choose to respond to events that challenge your peace of mind determines the outcome. You can’t turn the emotions off, but you can sit with them till they settle, and then reflect on where those deep drives came from, what insights they hold about your unconscious beliefs, and how best to learn from them.
It is a purposeful decision to respond to demoralisation by actively seeking to understand the forces at work, to understand the people involved, and to understand your own emotional vulnerabilities. You may still decide at the end of this process that, yes, the demoralisation is justified because circumstances are terrible and you are going to fight against them! That is purposeful too. In fact, you are more likely to be an effective counter-force if you really understand the situation, rather than just being enraged by animal passions.
Pragmatically, it’s a lot easier to stay hopeful and make sound decisions when you assume your neighbours are mistaken, but can be reasoned with, than when you assume they are evil and a threat to your existence. The best way to reach that state is to make a sincere and non-judgmental attempt to put yourself in their heads.
Evil people exist, for sure, but I hope you agree with my conclusion that half the population of the free world don’t fit the category.
In conclusion
So, wrapping up this now rather lengthy coffeehouse starter here’s the tldr:
- Demoralisation and despair come from feeling the world has gone wrong
- Seeking understanding is a purposeful way to respond
- Once you comprehend other people’s motives the world makes more sense
- You regain peace of mind and become a more effective person
Hope that helps anyone currently feeling discomforted.
Now back to the virtual haven of calm…
Dr L, you are a brave man to do politics on here. There is much I could say! But for now I just want to say I agree with the view you expressed about trying to understand others’ perspectives. There is too little of it happening in the world and especially in the cultural bubbles / echo chambers you mention. The Righteous Mind by Haidt had a massive impact on me too, to help with living and thinking in that more open way and understanding why much of the world doesn’t. I’d recommend it to anyone on here. It should also be compulsory reading in schools, but I doubt it ever will be.
This is a great post and I can completely relate, especially re Brexit. I will confess I do still get angry about it now, especially at airports. Ironically LO would really like this post so I have to remember it would be a bad idea to forward it on ha (unless you put it under a different website. Wouldn’t want him reading all the other stuff like ‘how to know you’re an LO etc!)
I always try to consider the other side of the coin and try and understand why others approach situations differently. Personality models and values are for sure a contributing factor and they’re good to understand that people genuinely think differently. Maybe my issue is I don’t routinely (want to?) assume the worst in people which can leave me vulnerable especially when dealing with people who are genuinely crap.
A wall of text marking my progress 5 months NC:
{to recap: have fallen limerent for the office flirt/ Tinderella, who I’ve dubbed MPDG.
Currently 5 months NC.
She’s now working in the next building.
In a few months time, when her contract there ends, she’ll either disappear altogether, employed by some other company or in a department far far away,
or she’ll work nearby or as a temp (in which case our paths may well cross eventually),
or, least likely, she’ll gain employment with our division, in which case she’ll be right in my face..}
This past month has been far more.. breezy, compared to the 4 month mark.
I don’t miss her. I do still think about her, but whenever I do fall into rumination, it’s accompanied by the recognition that we are extremely incompatible.
Also, to my best knowledge, MPDG hasn’t attempted to break NC (which she almost did a couple times earlier, probably to scope out job prospects, rather than to get in touch with anyone in particular).
I’ve been working on myself in terms of physical and emotional well-being.
Also getting to meet new people.
It hasn’t hurt that occasionally I get flirted with, in non-serious, playful ways – I am married, after all (in contrast, when MPDG flirted with me, it was in a rather surreptitious, intense fashion – which perplexed me, as she knows that I’m taken).
Funny thing is, I recognise MPDG’s behaviour and demeanour from somewhere before – it’s very reminiscent of a certain guy from my school days, a highly sexually confident ‘player’. And a narcissist.
So I’m guessing that MPDG could be a female equivalent of a ‘player’.
She’s certainly highly sexually confident and unconcerned about outcomes.
This divergence of morals is I think what threw me into limerence. A quick tour of reddit confirms that there’s many people who view the onus of infidelity as one-sided.
MPDG was free to flirt with me, and push the boundaries, despite my marital status, as she has little to lose.
Kind of like a game of sexual chicken, and she was relying on me to apply the brakes.
The sexual tension was heightened due to my attraction to her, constrained by the limits on how I could interact.
I think now that I appreciate that she’s just an ordinary, self centred young woman looking for low hanging validation points, it’ll be easier to rebuff her. I won’t have lost anything of value.
I don’t know how I’d actually handle meeting MPDG face to face.
Part of me wants to see her again, as a kind of acid test.
Part of me still desperately wishes that I mean something to her, that her previous interactions with me were truly signs of genuine interest. It seemed she put in a lot of effort for a few scraps of validation.
But I’d been viewing her behaviour through the eyes of an introvert. I know now that I was just one of several, and to her, it was just playing, hardly any effort from an extrovert perspective at all.
Should we meet again, if we just said ‘hi’ and ‘bye’, then I’d know that’s the end of it. It would seal the fact that MPDG is merely a party girl flexing her flirting muscles on a tame target (ie a married man).
This is the expected outcome, and one that will propel me away from her.
But if MPDG wants to pick up where we left off, exchanging a little banter, and possibly contact details, I can’t imagine not responding in kind. It would likely throw me into limerence again.
‘Best case’ scenario (from a wishful thinking perspective) would be if some kind of platonic relationship develops.
But I would still be far more emotionally invested than she’ll ever be, not a healthy or balanced arrangement.
The most optimal circumstance for a balanced relationship would be when my feelings for her have completely dissipated, so not for some time, I imagine, by which any connection would be lost.
I’ve been doing risky things, like passing her workplace whenever the opportunity arises.
But I think it’s better if I can ride out a few more months of NC, and even better if I never see her again
*(whilst silently thanking her for prompting me out of a rut, and wishing her well, wherever she may be~)
It was hard to focus on hobbies and other distractions, initially.
What’s been helpful has been sticking to routines. Maintaining discipline, even/ especially when I didn’t want to.
Also trying new things.
I managed to injure myself in the process (not quite as badly as Adam!), and recovery from that has been a diversion.
Meeting new people is definitely helpful, even though none are anything more than acquaintances.
And of course, trying to do new things with my oblivious SO, who has been a bit resistive to change.
Being flirted with can certainly be a buzz (as an introvert, flirting doesn’t come naturally to me). I don’t think it’s ideal though, getting a dopamine hit from external validation.
This is something new to me, I used to be inured to that sort of thing prior to limerence. But probably because I was rarely interested in anyone who hit on me, until MPDG came along..
I don’t feel at risk of transferring my limerence, I don’t think I’m as prone to it as some others here.
MPDG is my only LO, and in the depths of my LE, I couldn’t imagine ever developing limerence for anyone else.
But now I wonder.. if the dopamine hit was high enough, and repeated yet sporadic .. a ‘perfect storm’ of emotion – perhaps I may not be so invulnerable to it after all?
This exact topic has been on my mind since the election. Here in Australia we aren’t directly affected by the election, although I imagine we’ll be indirectly affected. A good friend of mine supported Trump and was openly happy about the win. I don’t feel aligned with either party, but my view is that the left provides a kind of social insurance. I know my friend is a good person. She wrote to me saying she was happy Trump had won. I wrote back to her saying I was devastated he’d won, but I wanted to understand her perspective. First off I told her that I wanted her to feel safe to disagree with me. I was open to changing my mind, but the argument had to stand up to scrutiny. On the topic of ‘truth’ I love Julia Galef’s Ted talk on scout and soldier mentality. Definitely worth the watch if you want to discuss the election with the opposing team!
This past week my friend and I have been sending messages and reels and articles back and forth. I think we’ve both changed our minds on a few issues. The conversation has been super respectful and about getting to the truth. It can be extremely difficult to do that when there’s a lot of misinformation out there (from both sides!) But a lot of the claims can be verified through official documents or proceedings. My biggest frustration is the entire election process is just smoke and mirrors on both sides. I just wanted to know what their policies were without all the mudslinging.
Cordelia,
I’m on the wrong side of the Atlantic to comment from a US perspective, so will tread lightly. What I want to say is I feel I’ve witnessed the near collapse of civilised conversations to understand others’ points of view, across the last 20-25 years. It used to be routine to try and do that.
The discourses from both sides of the spectrum have now become so emotionally and morally charged. The further one side goes, the further the other goes in response. It is like there is no common understanding anymore (‘Brexit’ was a huge example and I was as culpable as the next person at that time). I reckon social media echo chambers are a big factor. Haidt also argues we instil more fear in children these days, and that this fear extrapolates out of things like ‘stranger danger’ into ‘fear of hearing a view I don’t like’.
I have only about three people where I feel I can have genuinely open and conversations about political views (and not that this should matter, but I’m not a right winger or “Trumpian” at all, quite ‘vanilla’ views by old standards, but I still feel this way). That’s not a reflection on me, it’s a reflection on the world. Too few of these open, honest and respectful conversations happen, period.
DrL is right to suggest we use this space to discuss our feelings on it constructively. It is good to hear about how you handled it with your friend.
More people seem to be becoming aware of the magnitude of this problem and the need to do something about it. Maybe this is a (ahem) ‘glimmer’ of hope now. The future would be bleak if we humans don’t address it.
L-a-R
My high school and undergrad days were filled with political arguments. I 100% had a soldier mindset. I had to be right.
I think the big thing I’ve always had in my favor is my curiosity. As Galef says in her Ted talk, being curious will help you see the truth, and that’s why over the years, I’ve become far more open minded.
I think it can also help with limerence if you can get the truth out of your LO. It’s why, to this day, I’m still annoyed that LO left me hanging. I actually don’t care if he had feelings for me or not. I want to know the truth behind his actions. I also think a lot of us gaslight ourselves. I truly convinced myself that I didn’t have feelings for him. Intellectually I didn’t. But unfortunately my brain doesn’t get to decide everything 😏
I suppose, even if both parties only told the truth, we still wouldn’t see eye to eye on how best to solve problems and set political agendas. But I’d have far more respect for the people wanting to be in power if they were transparent. I take far more issue with the lies than I do with someone having a different perspective on how to solve a national problem. Especially when those lies are told with the intent to fuel rage and create an ‘other’ mentality. It’s quite deliberately divide and conquer.
I think the new national flex would be refusing to divide. We may not agree with each other, but we still respect each other.
Cordelia,
To flip it back to limerence, i’m interested in something you said and would value an opinion:
“I think it can also help with limerence if you can get the truth out of your LO […] I want to know the truth behind his actions.”
Quick recap, male, limerent ~2 years for decade long female friend. NC not an option or desire. I have SO and despite limerence, not in a position where I’d entertain risking that for a long shot at relationship with LO. Despite that, I think very positively of LO and so have kept my feelings to myself and just continued to be a friend to her. Reasonable chance there is some mutuality to the feelings, but that is unknown.
Based on your own points I quoted, would you say that one day, when I am more out of the other side and there is less danger attached, that the kind thing for me to do would to admit these feelings exist(ed) and tell her what good qualities about her inspired them? Or – would doing that carry more risk of making it seem like the friendship I gave her through the limerence was somehow less authentic and otherwise-motivated? It isn’t true (friendship was there first) but I can see how it could look that way.
The alternative is that she’s in the dark forever about what I felt and may wonder about it like you are. Maybe that’s kinder though. The roles of limerent and LO are reversed here compared to in your example, but the principle is similar.
And don’t worry, I am not about to make any rash decisions or changes based on answers! It is a ‘not for now’ possibility and I’m just interested in your opinion based on what you said.
Hi L-a-R
I should probably sleep on it and respond in the morning, but your question is actually more aligned with the situation that brought me to LWL (not the situation with my LO) so it’s something I’m keen to respond to.
I’m assuming you have SO and she doesn’t?
I had this with my previous coach. He was married. I am/was single. We got along really well. But he was just way too happy to see me. But he never crossed a line that meant I could address his behavior. It was always just odd and never felt on the level. If he had been single, I might have entertained the idea of him. But he was not. And I was sure he didn’t want to leave his wife. I was being used for validation. Which sucked because he went home to his wife. I went home to nobody!
To address the ‘should I tell her?’ Question. That I don’t know. For someone like me, I’d say absolutely tell her the truth. Because if it was inappropriate for me to continue to be friendly with you, I’d keep my distance. Knowing how you feel would give me the power to make an informed decision. If I don’t know, I then have to try and test things out because I feel weird sensing how the other person feels but they’ve admitted nothing so I just have to guess. And then what? If I distance myself maybe I’m overreacting. It puts the LO in a really shitty position ( if like me they don’t want to mess with your feelings!)
Some LOs thrive on it. But then by telling her, in a way you set a boundary. If she manipulates the situation, you know she’s not a great LO. If she backs off, she’s respectful. The problem is that I don’t think you want her to back off. But if knowing the truth gave her the power to make the decision that’s best for her (and you), I personally would admire that.
I keep wanting to drum into the men who’ve declared their love for me, “you don’t know me!!” You’ve created a fantasy in your head and it will burst soon enough. That’s my honest perspective as someone who uses the truth to do the right thing. Do you think LO would do the right thing? I suspect you don’t want to tell her because you’d lose your drug source if she acted with integrity and kept her distance. Would that be right?
Cordelia,
Thanks – some very helpful thinkers there and appreciate your perspective. Sleep! Will reply properly tomorrow – you are right about a lot but there is a bit more to say. I will stick it on another thread like the recent ‘Entanglements’ one, (apt anyway!) – I know this is Coffeehouse but dont want to hijack this thread further from the politics.
Cordelia,
“I was being used for validation. Which sucked because he went home to his wife. I went home to nobody!“
I well remembered your line for the first time, and wrapped it a little bit and threw it at LaR on the Election Day here…
LaR,
Cordelia’s view is very poignantly insightful to me, we are on the same boat in our cases, respectively, as limerent and as LO at different times. I’m not as strong or clear-headed as her, though. (But after one case, I never chose male therapist again).
@snow
Aww thanks, Snow 🥰
As usual, I can appear strong and clearheaded because you don’t really know me 😂 But I do try to make decisions based on rationality rather than emotional outburst! I know that I definitely see things from a different perspective to most, so I’ve had to become good at understanding other points of view and articulating my own.
Cordelia,
I appreciate those who think differently so you’re in safe territory here.
You’re surely right that – even if I might try to reason it out otherwise to myself – one reason I don’t tell her is so as not to lose my dopamine supply. That’s despite a small part of me telling me I should just be honest.
You are right about both our relationship statuses. The way you described your coach as just a bit too pleased to see you but not stepping over lines, is how I will come across to my LO too (just a bit too warm and interested). But sometimes she displays that back too. I am certain she is a good person and will share your wish not to mess with my head or interfere negatively in my SO’s life.
Other than once, when I did test a line (not a really immoral one, but a slight move of goalposts) and got a polite but clear pushback, there is no other time in the history of our friendship where she has given any hint of a back-off signal (even my limerent brain that looks for problems hasn’t detected one). The opposite is more common – extreme warmth in my direction from a not notoriously-warm person. This hints (although doesn’t confirm – I do know this Snow, not to assume!) that she is relatively happy with how things are, whatever she suspects that I feel.
What interests me about your former situation is why, if you felt uncomfortable in it,
you didn’t ask him why he was acting weird or if he had feelings (apologies if I have misunderstood or assumed, and actually you did). I sometimes feel if LO was uncomfortable with how I am, she’d confront me on it. But it never happens, never even close. Perhaps she’d rather not let the genie out of the bottle either.
As to me disclosing, my question to you was more one about the future. It is just too dangerous when I am attached and have little play available for LC. This place is full of stories of the downsides where disclosure made both people’s lives much harder. I do see your point totally though about how knowledge would have allowed you an informed choice. I am like 90%+ she would take it well, be adult, act responsibly and we’d find a way through with some of our long pre-LE friendship intact – so in that way, the dopamine supply (which Snow has repeatedly pointed out to me might also be true for her) wouldn’t have to be cut totally. But lurking in the other 10% are some seriously shark infested waters (since I’m talking to an Aussie). She could go off script and land me with any number of problems.
Knowing the facts of the situation I think it is best to leave it alone for now but maintain a belief that one day in the future, and for purely non-selfish reasons, I may tell her.
These things are complicated aren’t they? Cheers for listening and not judging. Will give it more thought but no knee-jerk reactions for sure.
Cordelia,
I could/can see rationality sides of matter and mostly acted accordingly. However, due to my past traumas, my emotions often quietly hurting myself inside (outsiders couldn’t see) when my mood is melancholy or physically under weather. My emotions did not outburst easily, either, since I have my imagination layout.
When another strong, insightful voice, like yours, ring its crystal-clear bell, I feel strengthened to resist some emotional pulls that would elongate my LE pains or wind down my spirit…. Thank for sharing your points of views! 🙏
I also shared your attitude and behavior on friendship with men….
Hugs 🥰
You’re alright by me Ms. Cordelia. Your advice has always been sound and appreciated. Especially by yours truly..
This conversation has been interesting and it’s nice to see you make your appearance here again. Although my guess is it will be short lived and you’ll go back into lurker mode.
Glad that it looks like you are making progress. I’m sure LaR can learn a thing or two from you as I’m reading your post again and now identifying how to apply those thoughts in relation to Lady Friend.
She made another big reveal to me this week about a family situation and this coming after our little get together last weekend. (I even got to meet her Sister!!
Wtf is that about?? I was so excited).
I plan to respond to one of LaRs posts shortly and I’ll try to update a little more there..
@ Call me Cordelia
“I think it can also help with limerence if you can get the truth out of your LO.”
I’m with you on this 100%. I believe I would not have had one disastrous LE after the next if I had been able to get the perspective of just one past LO. The most galling aspect of a limerent rejection is that there is never any feedback – not even so much as a “fuck you!” It is often said that you learn by experience, but if your experience results in an intractably bewildering riddle, you don’t learn much of anything!
However, something I have never mentioned before, even here, was that one early morning I texted my last LO about 5 months after the last time I saw her with “Hi. How’s it going?” To my amazement, she texted back immediately (She hadn’t blocked my number!) with “IF YOU WERE NOT ALREADY RUDE ENOUGH!!! HAVE SOME DECENCY IN YOURSELF!!!” I responded with a thumbs up, and that was the end of it.
In that one honest interjection, I learned that I had really pissed her off. This is how I know that disclosing to your LO is an absolute no-no. I believe it was because of this one short burst of truth by an LO that I have been able to manage an active LE, despite having had daily contact with my current LO for well over a year now without saying or doing anything stupid. I have eliminated a lot anxiety by realizing that I will never have to pick the “right time” to disclose my feelings, because it is simply unthinkable to do so; it is as unthinkable as going out and robbing a bank and killing people – it is just something you don’t do!
MJ,
Yes much I can learn too from Cordelia.
And I’m super intrigued what’s occurring with you and LF now …
“HAVE SOME DECENCY IN YOURSELF!!!”
James A
I remember some days after LO left the job I was talking to other co-workers about her and my boss says something along the lines of “I’m surprised you didn’t beg her to stay”. To which I replied “I didn’t want to make her feel guilty for leaving.” To which someone asked “what about your dignity?” I answered “I didn’t care about that”.
I wonder if LO had snapped at me with that kind of reply instead of being kind and gracious with the attention I gave her I would have come back around to reality. But she didn’t. And I don’t know. And as Dr L famously says “If you had that knowledge what would you do with it?”
Cordelia, exactly, but one can only call someone out and have them accept being called out if you also respect a core of their concerns. If you don’t respect their views, they don’t care if you think they believe lies.
I remember having a conversation in a pub with a far right guy in the EDL once, a huge muscly guy with a lot of convictions for violence. I actually called out him out on a lot of his opinions in cordial manner. I woudln’t say I somehow converted him, but we could at least agree that his core concern was more narrow than his initial broad statements, but that we fundamentally disagreed about his core view. Shouting across the divide forces people in the middle to take sides.
I disagree on limerence. For me it is intrinsic that one person is more invested, and the platonic relationship is fundamentally shaped by this. If you can’t ‘end’ limerence without ‘knowing’, you haven’t accepted that it doesn’t matter why they behaved liek they did. If you knew that they did e.g. like you plutonically, but the relationship didn’t work out regardless, you can still be devastated long term and struggle with that loss. You aren’t in a relationship with them, and even if you could have been, that moment is gone (sorry, speaking generally here). The limerent and the LO probably often don’t fully understand their own behaviour until it is too late, so even if they explained, it is likely a rationalization and wouldn’t be the ‘full’ truth. Internal acceptance is the only route IMO, as hard as it is.
I am generally not a fan of the full on associate negative memories with LE approach, but the key advantage IMO is disliking someone does allow you to not value their opinion, whether in politics or love!
LaR,
You think you were safe on the other side of the pond, far away from the US nerve-raking Election? A fat chance… ! 😆. Guess how Snow’s 🔥 post of 2/5 landed on your T head across the Atlantic?
I was working (as a registered translator) on a poll site for 17 hours and sat next to this warm hearted, smoking, whinny “Trumpian” Spanish interpreter (a retired school security guard) who went on why she voted for Trump and how she was at odds with all her family members. I tried very hard not to argue with her but calmly listened to what she had to say. Still, I calmly said a couple of things about Trump’s Narc personality and his misogynic attitude towards women, everyone, she responded, “Really?’
We knew each other in several previous assignments in the same poll site (though, my first for the Presidential one), so she felt comfortable going on and on. Then, I began to write and edit that post to you, while feeling the irritation and anger rising and became unstoppable towards the end of the exhausting day (we still walked together as usual towards our homes, nearby on the same street)… But, I took some of my anger out on your “secret”, ungrateful attitude towards MFF (not YOU as a person), sorry.
There you have the fact! You “ignorantly” got fed a dose of the US election on the Election Day, indirectly and directly… and got A- for a Stoic exam/training session (also a part of my intention). 😋
Lol Snow, it is what it is, and if my 👻 took a bit of heat for that, well, I guess I’m glad to be of service!! You have spent enough time and patience on my ‘case’ for me to trust your heart is in the right place.
That’s very unfortunate what happened to you on the polling shift, and exactly typical of what DrL is getting at, I believe.
@LaR
I’ll try and address each point but I’m on my phone so might get a bit lost.
You ask ‘why didn’t I ask’. Because he had plausible deniability. I was still trying to lose the weight I had gained from motherhood and being in an awful relationship, so wasn’t very comfortable in my own skin. I’ve found that two things have stopped this happening to me – moving to a small town (where people lack the anonymity and distance required to get away with emotional infidelity. I’m sure it still happens but it’d be much harder to get away with) and getting back to feeling confident in my own skin. I think men sensed that insecurity and it provided them with something they could attack me with if I confronted them. They were always very physically appealing. But I think they knew that their good looks weren’t important to me. It’s like their insecurities were ignited by my lack of interest based on appearances, but they liked to think they could have me if they wanted me. Like, how could you not want me when I’m hotter than you? My brain needs stimulation and physical hotness doesn’t satisfy that requirement. Now I’ve worked my ass off at the gym, there’s nothing they can gaslight me with. No insecurity to use against me. So they don’t even try.
So getting back to my coach. I knew that if I asked, he’d say ‘it’s all in your head’. The reason he got some kind of validation from me is because we did get along really well. But he started complaining to me about his wife (which I shut down quickly) and his comments to me got a little bolder. At that point I started googling and found this site. After getting advice here, I decided (for his sake and mine) I needed to find a new coach. Even if no lines were crossed, I knew he could be feeling exactly as you are feeling right now and I was also starting to think about it in my head. I’m as human as everyone else. I’m fine with being single. Happy about it even. Still doesn’t make it a good idea to play with fire.
I also didn’t confront my coach because I loved that gym and he and I did get along really well. But once I found out what limerence was and I suspected I was an LO, I decided the safest option was to blow it up. So I did confront him. He literally gave me the ‘why would I be interested in you?’ response. I cried for a week because I’d made so much progress at that gym and had just started to feel a part of the community.
It was a bit different with LO. We met in 2002. It was a real love/hate relationship. Never romantic but lots of push-pull. I knew I wanted him in my life but my brain knew it was a bad idea to have a romantic relationship with him. He actually made quite a lot of suggestive comments. Even got very nervous telling me I was beautiful one time (which I responded to badly 😔). I was too overwhelmed. The love I felt for him was not earned or deserved. It was love at first sight. It made me way too vulnerable with someone I did not trust. Once we finally managed to muddle our way into a friendship, we made it work. We live on different continents (we met when both living in a third country) and visited each other. Our friendship was mostly online. He constantly made suggestive comments and I constantly deflected. I couldn’t bear to confront him because I was worried I’d lose a friendship that had become so valuable to me (even if entirely online). When I finally did, he denied everything. I had to wonder if it was because I ended up meeting my ex (and eventually having a child) right at a point where we had been talking about meeting up again.
I didn’t realise any of this until years later when I was trying to figure out what caused night terrors. Turns out it was him who caused them… honestly it’s a very long story. Can’t write it all out again. It was a saga. Ultimately I loved him more than anyone I’d loved other than my child (and dog) but didn’t completely trust him because of all the suggestive comments he’d made while continually denying having feelings for me. So the only way to deal was to bury how I felt and keep a dishonest friendship for 20 years!!
I love the Mark Groves quote. I won’t get it completely right. Something like ‘if a truth burns down a relationship, let it burn’.
I was devastated when I ended the friendship with him but it was definitely necessary for my own growth and confidence. I lost a friendship that was not serving me and gained myself.
Cordelia,
For now (as it is all I have time to write), my sincere thanks for this honest reply and for putting the story out like that.
All understood / empathised with, and I’ll write a full reply very soon.
MJ,
Yes much I can learn too from Cordelia.
And yes, I’m super intrigued what’s occurring with you and LF now …
Cordelia,
What I really want to say is that it was pretty bad form of these two men to treat you as they did – to do the suggestive / near boundary parts, but then hide behind the plausible deniability/imply ‘why would I want to be with you?’ (Coach guy) or not admit feelings for such a long time (friend/LO). They – definitely the first one – were using you and gaslighting you, and that can’t be nice. I know this sort of behaviour is quite common.
Even though I think it is overall best not to disclose to my LO (and as you can imagine I have given it a heck of a lot of thought), I have vowed not to hide behind plausible deniability if she did ever ask / confront me about it it. I will tell her the truth in that event and let it go where it does from there. I care very much about her as a friend and would not gaslight her if directly asked.
From your reply I get a different perspective on why LOs wouldn’t confront the limerent. Thank you. And I am really glad to hear you are in a better place of self esteem now. Your defences against men like those will be stronger. Better men do exist – but I guess it is finding and identifying them?!
“ ‘if a truth burns down a relationship, let it burn’.“
Without knowing the author or quote, I did let out the truth of my double layered LE at last, when it was already totally unnecessary — an permanent NC is taking place and the other side did not care how I ever thought or felt, and was basically ignoring my existence.
But it’s utterly important for me to acknowledge my side of truth, release it, thank the healing merit of this LE, leave no misunderstanding/wondering, and burn the bridge behind me….
A chapter of life needs an ending, better a clean one, for a new/fresh chapter to begin….
L-a-R
Thanks for the kind words. I don’t really blame either of them. I think my coach knew what he was doing was unprofessional, but as I know all too well, sometimes you just can’t control who you have feelings for so you say and do really dumb things. He denied it because I put him on the spot. That’s some pretty human behavior right there. Not good behavior. But human nonetheless.
And as for LO. I’m 95% certain I was an LO for him too. My behavior was also not good because I wasn’t honest with him. He was pissed when I confessed I’d had feelings for him and hadn’t told him. I was surprised at how angry he was. But my psychologist and I thought maybe it was because he felt gaslit by me. Or maybe because he had also had feelings (and he did try to tell me but I brushed it off which I only later realised when I found old emails and messenger conversations). I just couldn’t let things get romantic because (as I realised almost 20 years later) that lack of trust caused some extremely distressing night terrors. The odd thing is I trusted him in every other way. Just not with my heart. I was not ready to be that vulnerable with anyone. So I picked a narcissist who destroyed me from the inside out, but at least he never really had my heart.
I feel LO might have denied everything because he thought he had to in order to maintain our friendship. He was surprised and sad that I told him I couldn’t remain friends with him if he was going to deny having feelings after saying so many suggestive things to me (which I had proof of because they were in writing!) He then quickly backtracked but I was so angry I just yelled at him and that’s the last time we spoke. I wrote a few times after that saying if he ever felt he could be honest, I’d love to hear it, but never heard back. That was nearly four years ago.
It took me a couple of years to really process it all. I still would love to hear the truth, but I’m OK with never knowing. I just know that I will never allow it to happen again. I had the tiniest glimmer the other week. Someone rescued my child. Obviously a vulnerable moment for me. I know the man who rescued her. He’s married. I can safely say it didn’t go any further in my head than that split second. I suppose I’m lucky it wasn’t like the love struck feeling I had with my one and only LO because that wasn’t something I overcame easily. But I do think that my LE occurred because of where I was at and I’m just going to be less susceptible now I feel more comfortable and content in my own skin with my own company.
@MJ
You’re right. I won’t be around for long 😅 I have some crazy deadlines coming up and moving house! So spill!! I already finished binge-watching the Diplomat (the ending made me literally gasp!) and not much else interests me, so I need another installment of reality ummm blog comments…?
„If she manipulates the situation, you know she’s not a great LO. If she backs off, she’s respectful. The problem is that I don’t think you want her to back off. But if knowing the truth gave her the power to make the decision that’s best for her (and you), I personally would admire that.“
I would admire that too, but I think limerent reality is unfortunately a bit less clean-cut than this. There are so many murky desires and dark urges, on both sides (if she‘s limerent).
Her deciding what’s best for all and backing off, or her behaving improperly and him deciding that she’s not a great LO and therefore backing off himself, these are very noble outcomes, but there are so many more possibilities how everything could slide into chaos, secrets, hurts, whatever.
I think disclosing is only advisable if you think you can live with every possible outcome (her telling your SO counted in, for example.)
But I do understand the thought that it would be much more fair and clean to tell the truth. If only people could handle the truth in a good way.
Cordelia/Lar,
My Lady Friend saga continues to evolve in ways I never thought possible. We’re not even dating but it’s pretty obvious she has become comfortable with my presence, which I would like most to keep building upon and see what becomes of it. All while keeping those terrible limerent desires at bay. Which seems to still be going in my favor somehow..
To update, a few weeks ago, I found a wooden kids activity table, in great condition, that somebody was discarding and considered Lady Friends Sister because she just became a first time Mom back in July. Thinking it would be something she would maybe like to have for her Son when he got a little older.
I took some pics, sent them to Lady Friend and asked if she thought Sister would be interested. She was elated and told me it was a great idea. I measured it, partially dismantled it so it would fit inside my car and made plans to bring it out to work one night so she could deliver it to her Sister. When I asked what night it would be good to do this, she asked if it would be alright if I could just bring it over to her house on the weekend and we could go from there. Of course this about blew me out of the freakin water because it completely caught me so off guard. I had no idea that this was how she wanted to make this happen and all so suddenly. Like actually go to her actual house. Already!! Who knew?? I was beside myself.
About a week later, on the night we planned to meet, she gave me her address. About 15 minutes into the drive, as I was on my way out, she called to ask my location. Changing up plans all of a sudden and asking if I wouldn’t mind just taking it over to her Sister, who lives close-by to avoid having to move it twice later on. I agreed and she sent me directions to her Sister’s place and I met Lady Friend there.
Upon arriving, I was very nervous but her Sister was so nice and welcoming. I met her boyfriend and the Baby and was almost treated like family instantly. Like a surreal moment taking place. I actually pinched myself a few times just to make sure I wasn’t dreaming.
I brought the table in, assembled it back in full and watched Lady Friend at the same time in full Aunt mode, all happy and playing with the Baby. Catching her looking at me from time to time and admiring how I was being all crafty and Dad-like. I think she was enjoying the moment because she couldn’t stop smiling at me almost the whole time. Telling me I didn’t have to be acting so shy. But I told her it’s felt like forever since I’ve been in a family setting like that with anyone. Like over 10 years practically, but the evening turned out nice overall. I finished the project, told them good night and Lady Friend walked me out. I asked if she wanted to go get dinner. She turned me down. Have no clue why.
A few nights later, walking her out from work, she revealed about the severe alcohol and drug addiction her father suffered from for years when she was growing up. (I again was surprised by this reveal but apparently she becomes more trusting of me with each interaction we have.)((More so than I probably give it..)) I guess it was pretty traumatic growing up in her house. Said that he put her Mom and younger brothers through hell for the longest time. Which now explains some of her anxiety and sleep deprivation issues. She said this year he is 5 years sober so the family is celebrating this weekend. She hasn’t gone into too much detail otherwise but I thanked her for trusting me with her trauma and told her I’ll always be a great listening ear whenever she wants to talk about it and she thanked me.. Given that I have an addictive personality myself (not just for certain people), this opens the gateway for me to talk about my past and hopeful of her same understanding.
I guess the only issue left is the curiosity of why she won’t go out with me yet. Not even necessarily as a date but just as work-buds. If she wants it to be a date, I would totally be ok with that but I’m just stumped why I feel like I just jumped ahead 2 steps, met some of the family, without going on the date first. Not complaining about it, but it feels like something is off. Am I missing something? I feel like all the right ingredients are there for a perfect night out but she simply won’t meet or commit to it..
I wonder is she needing her Sisters validation for opinion or ok to date me? Do Sisters do this?? I would ask my Ex but I’m not trying to involve her if I don’t have to. If you could give your thoughts here, I’d greatly appreciate it..
Hi MJ,
I’m also an avid follower of your reality saga. In fact I was just thinking, when we at LwL are ‘shipping’ you and LF, are we holding you back from actually getting some? (Pardon the expression.) And we are shipping you! I thought, if he would just set his sights on someone 10 years older, he would have much better chances! I know, I know, ‘the heart wants what it wants’, but does it want what it wants because those are the images our culture/media feeds us: lithe, young women? (If I were a 50 yr old man, I would start bombarding my psyche with images of 40+ women to convince myself that was who I found attractive! 😁)
Anyway, you asked why she turned down dinner with you that night. I’ll tell you the same thing I told LaR. She likes you – a lot, but probably not like THAT. If she was smitten, she would have taken you up on your offer. That’s not to say she will never cave, but that’s how the situation is at the moment – as I see it from afar and with my limited knowledge…
In any case, I’m still crossing my fingers! You are playing the long game and playing it very well.
Thank you Trifles.
I did not know you were following along but thank you for the insight. I appreciate your support and will see who else will add their 2 cents here..
Dear MJ,
Your story with LF has us all gripped – I feel happy (on your behalf) to hear this update for a few reasons:
Your LF obviously trusts you to invite you round like that. Its not the same as being thought about as a romantic interest, but it is something nice.
Secondly, not only did she invite you round, she also shared very private information about her upbringing. Who knows what sorts of issues her background throws up in establishing trust in relationships, or trust in men. Maybe none. But the point is that she shared it. She also shared it *after* she has turned down the chance to go get dinner with you. Perhaps it is an explanation of sorts ‘Don’t rush me’ or something.
Re
“I guess the only issue left is the curiosity of why she won’t go out with me yet. Not even necessarily as a date but just as work-buds. If she wants it to be a date, I would totally be ok with that but I’m just stumped why I feel like I just jumped ahead 2 steps, met some of the family, without going on the date first.”
I think you didn’t necessarily jump ahead romantically with the visit home (to her sister’s), it was a jump in trust not necessarily romance. The sharing of personal info was too. The dinner refusal *might* be because she can see that you like her in THAT way, and doesn’t want to encourage it for now. I say ‘for now’ because that may or may not change in future. We have seen people here on LwL fall for people they’ve been friends or co-workers with, so its not impossible that things change in future. We have also seen people here on LwL being gripped for years by people who just want to keep things platonic with ambiguity reigning throughout, so its not a guarantee either. It could even be that she is interested but not going there for other reasons of avoidance, commitment issues, etc etc Or – she does not want to get into a romance with someone at work. I probably left out many other possibilities.
The main thing, as you know, is not to let your brain get fried by these recent events and to fall into limerence for LF. Your post shows that you are putting some thought into all of this, which seems to be well under control. Please don’t fantastise too much and turn this into a self-medicating situation. That will ruin things, as you well know!!! And this is all going so smoothly that it would be terrible to ruin it, even as a close and trusting platonic friendship because, goodness, knows we all need that type of thing to ease the work tedium and generally enrich our lives.
Thank you Bewitched. I appreciate you. You raise many possibilities with the situation and to my perplexed mindset, I’m still not losing any sleep or feeling anxious about her right now. Not saying it won’t ever happen though..
There are some days when I see her or even smell her and I feel like maybe glimmer moments want to surface. Sometimes I can’t even believe she wants to give me the time of day. Everything just feels so right about her. All the smiles from across the way, the little things she remembers about me, conversations that actually have depth. Sometimes for hours at a time. What drives me crazy is that she’s so incredibly available. Brags about the fact she has no boyfriend now to buy Christmas presents for this year and doesn’t ever wants kids either. Her not wanting kids completely ups her value with me, like 200%. She’s so seemingly right. Like I couldn’t have asked for a better person to get me out of that terrible limerent place.
I worry if more rejection will take me back to that sad place again. I still think of LO but LF keeps taking over more brainspace. Almost like she’s pushing all the LO stuff into a corner and taking over. In a way I really like that. Oh how I wish she would for real.
@MJ
Thanks for the LF update! I have to agree with Bewitched and Trifles on this one. I’m not getting romance vibes from this. That combined with the “dad vibes” comment she made, it would definitely seem more of a friendship situation from my perspective.
I get what Trifles said to you about age. We each have our own preference and I do know of a couple of relationships with a big age gap, but very few. Are you only attracted to women that age? Why do you think that is?
From my perspective, it’s more a problem of compatibility. As I asked you before, does she want children? Do you want more children? It would seem to me that this is a major issue and if you’re not on the same page, there’s really no romantic future regardless of how either of you feel 🤷♀️ This doesn’t even need to be a conversation about you having children with her. It’s just a ‘you seem to love your nephew, do you see that in your future?’ kinda thing… I’m curious to know why you didn’t address that question last time?
I also think that ten months is a decent amount of time to get to know someone. If I was interested in someone romantically, I’d be saying ‘yes’ to dinner for sure. If for no other reason than to get to know them better.
As Bewitched said, it’s not impossible. But, from what you’ve written, unless you’re missing out some major detail, my perspective is she sees you as a friend.
MJ,
This really all sounds pretty awesome. Others have more than given you the reality checks to try and not get yourself limerent or onto those harmful loops, and also that it could equally be a trust-based friendship on her side, nothing more. You don’t (and for now, can’t) know any of that. Just keep doing what you’re doing, let the trust build and keep an open mind. Even if it is friendship, nothing more, that’s an amazing thing to have in your life, right? This all sounds great. I did not see my LO outside of work for the first many years I knew her, or even try to. I feel like if I asked her for dinner near the start she would have said no. It would have been like jumping the gun. We have now built the trust where she would say (has said) yes to such invites, or sometimes asks me to do things like that (never really ‘dinner’, as that does just feel too much like a date in my situation, but getting lunch or a glass of wine after work, for example. The first time that ever happened, she asked me – I’d wait in your case and let her if she wants to). It can change with time. But I should add that part of the reason I think the trust is there with my LO is that I am a ‘safe option’ for her – partnered, and she knows I’m not going to try and turn it into a date or try and come onto her, etc.
Anyway my friend, enough of me getting back to my LO-praising: just enjoy this turn in your fortunes for what it is! You sound pretty level headed about it.
Trifles,
“Anyway, you asked why she turned down dinner with you that night. I’ll tell you the same thing I told LaR. She likes you – a lot, but probably not like THAT.”
I kind of hate to say it, but my MFF wouldn’t turn that down if I asked (as long as I applied good judgement about which day to ask). It would have been easier if she did. 😅 I think your point may well still apply though – it could well be because of the ‘not like THAT’ element that she feels comfortable enough to instigate or say yes to lunches etc.
📢📢📢⏰ “Wait, what’s that coming over the hill?” “It’s the LaR FUTULITY ALARM going off even before Trifles reminds him!”
Thanks LaR. I’ll take your words as good advice. It’s been really nice having normal friendship with this person. I guess for you it’s a little different having a SO around but it sounds like you make it work.
I’ll be sure to keep you posted. I appreciate you keeping up with me..
“it sounds like you make it work.”
Yes and no, MJ. In the case for the defence, it did and does genuinely work as a strong functioning M/F friendship – the limerence is in my head on top. I have never verbally or physically crossed any boundaries. And SO knows of and (to a point, anyway) says she accepts LO’s presence in my life.
So I can square it if I think like that, but at the same time I know there is a ‘having my cake and eating it’ element that’s selfish on my part and not fair on SO. I wouldn’t want her to be as close (really, or mentally) to another man. LO has a lot of my mental space and energy, still. Also the two of them have ultra different communication styles. I can be very direct with LO (this is what she likes) but not with SO who is more of a sensitive type. If I have spent too long around LO I can slip unthinkingly into being over-direct to SO or wanting her to be direct with me. When I catch myself at that, I feel reallu guilty.
How’s that for a balanced assessment of the iffy line I walk?
LaR,
It sounds like you strike a balance that, while at times seems to teeter in a way you’d rather it not, you then bring it back and put in place, where things belong. I see how that could be very mentally challenging though. I don’t really envy that part of it.
To me it reads like there is sometimes a challenge to making the balance happen but I commend you on at least having a modicum of honesty with your SO about it. Plus you don’t seem to have as much invested into LO, say as another (un-named) poster here, who has been way too over-the-top about his LO. It seems so deceitful and wrong to his SO, to not mention LO in any capacity, or even consider everything he could potentially lose as a result. Although how can I make that call when I don’t know that Woman or how she might even react? I can’t. I base a lot of my thoughts/opinions on how my Wife may have reacted, but that was 17 years ago. She knew a lot of what I was doing then. I didn’t really try to hide it. She just eventually became numb to it.
I lost everything to being a serial cheater and basic fraud to my now Ex-Wife. All this for cheap thrills with other Women. Most of whom didn’t give a $#!+ about me. Unlike you, I crossed boundaries and actually went there, and I’m still paying the price. But now that I’m older I’m past a lot of that and want to turn over a new leaf. Am I too late? Sometimes I wonder.
Anyway, sorry to go off on a rant here. Hope you don’t mind my thoughts. You seem to do alright though LaR. Just keep it 💯 with SO and you should be good.
Again best of luck. I appreciate you and your advice..
Thanks MJ.
I have read your stories about your married days, about the costs of that, and how this has translated into advice for another male poster. For what it is worth, i think that poster does love his SO very much, doesn’t intend to cross lines further, and just uses/used LwL to vent out the conflict and turmoil he felt. But you point out the possible costs from first hand experience, and that is a good thing to be reminded of in his/my position.
I really know what that turmoil is like. It is possible (and horrible, in a way) to feel in love with two people at once. I think what you see at LwL, of those of us with partners, is an unbalanced sample of people who do have generally decent moral compasses. Those who don’t would just have the affair, not spend time on a website about learning to cope with and resist what they’re feeling!
Thank you though for recognising difference between that other situation and mine. The thing is MJ, I am a hopeless liar and SO is a senser. I simply couldn’t live with all the pretending if, say, I didn’t admit I’d seen LO when I’d been out the house. It is better to give SO some of the facts but just leave the limerence out of it. I have got as far as “her friendship is really important to me because X and Y”. I try to say that sort of thing to SO without seeming to put LO on a pedestal or make comparisons. I guess only SO knows how she really feels about it.
LaR, nice to hear from you! I just meant to say that women can be friendly without it meaning that they are necessarily romantically interested. The clues can be hard to decipher when you really, really want to think that they are (interested). I guess the optimism can be hard for me to understand, especially with me now out of limerence. And even while limerent I tend to lean toward the “he can’t be interested in me in that way. I’m sure he just sees me as a friend…”
A lot of the cases I have read on here read to me as women acting like they would act with good, trusted friends (and some cases where the LO has barely even given the limerent the time of day, but nevertheless the limerent’s conclusion has been that she must be interested). There haven’t been clues that scream: she’s secretly in love with him! (Again, speaking generally of several cases here.)
My aim has been to try to keep the limerent’s/asker’s feet on the ground – there would be less of a crash down to earth that way. (I prefer that to giving someone false hope.) I’m glad others have been more eloquent and thorough with their reasoning than I have with my quick responses. 😅
Personally, I prefer and commend the direct approach. Man likes woman, he asks her out to dinner. Clear signal there, no ambiguity! (Unless we have a case like yours where there’s been friendship for 10 years, in which case the dinner invite translates into dinner with a friend. 😅) And I also like Cordelia’s approach to being turned down: tell her that if she wants to do dinner another time, she should suggest a time – it’s her turn to ask. Of course some might not like this approach because you no longer have control of the situation. And it also requires you to back off a little. But space can be a good thing, it can make someone realise what they want. …Okay, now I’m wading too far into the “however this, however that…” T-style speculation. I should get my own alerts for that! 📢📢
Have a good day!
LaR,
I get that it must be a real challenge to juggle two relationships at once, at least when you know you’ll never cross that boundary. My hats off to you and to anyone here struggling with that. It was not my intent to sound harsh or too judgemental of others in similar situations. I guess seeing it from this side now, I see again the deceit I was doing by not telling my Wife where I was at or what I was doing then. Swear I’ll forever be paying for that and I hate it.
Nowadays, I just don’t have it in me anymore to be like that. Or even want to attempt to be like that.
Trifles –
(a) asking directly – this is an internet forum…. clearly getting drunk and kissing is what you mean. Introverts need help.
(b) One of the biggest surprises for me as I get older has been that I find women of a similar age attractive more or less as much as younger women, and the lower boundary certainly increases a bit, if not as fast. We may not be as flexible as women around this, but it is a thing. Most men I know have very realistic ideas of who they like, and it is generally from 10 years younger up to 5 years older.
MJ – also following, the long game is a tough one but you are still doing well. As long as you don’t get limerent it is relatively risk free. I would also tip not feeling THAT way, but if you are an older man and cant directly ask for a first date you don’t have many options. I would just urge you very clearly to define with yourself your own boundaries and stick to them, and be decisive about when it is the right time to make a move. You asked to go to dinner which is the right approach I think. You were direct, and never said just as friends. Being nice is fine, being nice to get together with someone is o.k., but a grey area, being nice when they are clearly showing a lack of interest is the end. My barrier would always be at a minimum – if she ever starts talking about other men etc. shut it down. Given you are both available, she is likely thinking also about whether you are a potential partner or just friends, despite all the differences, and that boundary needs to be maintained. As long as you are genuine, have integrity and show a clear sense of self that is fine. You just need to be decisive at the right time, not straight away.
MJ,
I didn’t find you harsh or judgmental (towards me at all but not towards anyone else either). Your points are very well measured “If you do X, then Y could happen, so think what you want to achieve by X”. And you speak from experience and to people in my situation while we still have a choice. And that’s crucial. As I am always saying, I truly value the different opinions you all bring.
I don’t want or deserve too much sympathy for my version of the juggling act. I can’t help where my heart can pull me, but ultimately I have let myself get into the situation – nobody has done that to me. I am really working to do the right thing though (by them both, and by me) and thanks for recognising that. Different bits of my psyche move at different rates and bump up against each other.
I don’t like (for you) the fact you see your limerence for LO as some kind of punishment or fate for what you did all those years ago. I wish for you that you could make peace with yourself and move on now as that older and wiser MJ you’ve become.
The LF stuff I just continue to be encouraged by what you say. Just keep level and keep being good to her, without too much expectation, and see. Remember what I said recently – best not to amplify either the good or bad encounters to mean more than they do. Often these are just down to natural mood swings, no more.
Heebie Jeebies, a) 😂 I’m sure getting drunk and kissing has worked for many! (I don’t kiss and tell, so I’m just speaking generally 😇) As this is an internet forum, we do need to add that you have to be sure the other person wants it too… And I would NOT recommend it as a first course of action in coworker situations!
But I think I was actually talking about asking someone out to dinner. Scary, right? But some of us manage to do it! (Hats off)😉
b) As for the age thing, I don’t want to over-generalize or ruffle too many feathers. I’ll just say that the odds are stacked pretty badly against a man who goes after someone 15-25(!) years younger than him.
You are surprised that you still find women of your own age attractive? I wouldn’t think that’s so surprising.
I think (also hope) you’re right in that most people will want a partner who is somewhat near their age. Fantasies are a different thing. My range would also be 10 years below to about 5 years above. Much more than that… I’m in too good shape for most 50-somethings. 😜 They couldn’t keep up!
Trifles,
Always a pleasure 😊 Hope all is well in your neck of the woods.
“A lot of the cases I have read on here read to me as women acting like they would act with good, trusted friends”
Maybe – this is where I really can’t ever tell (not thinking about mine here, but other LwL male examples). Maybe it is because I am male and we just aren’t wired to ‘get’ this stuff? Sweeping over generalisation coming, but the female mind will, I think, always be a thing of great beauty and mystery to men.
“and some cases where the LO has barely even given the limerent the time of day, but nevertheless the limerent’s conclusion has been that she must be interested”
I must confess I find these LEs much harder to understand. Only with the emotional connection unmistakeably there do I ever really start getting fired up on someone.
“Personally, I prefer and commend the direct approach. Man likes woman, he asks her out to dinner. Clear signal there, no ambiguity!”
This bit of your message got me thinking (📢📢📢 T alarm!). I am a problem solver by nature. I don’t like to get stuck, I like to weigh the solutions and back one. In another hypothetical scenario I would have explored something like this with MFF long ago. There has also been just the odd time over the spell I’ve known her where it felt like it could have just ‘naturally developed’ if given oxygen, if you get my drift. And in either event, good or bad, I would have known, and to some degree would have had a start to solving the stuckness.
I was a late bloomer where it came to approaching the women I liked – wasn’t really confident at it until my 30s. Since then there has been SO, my LO3, and a crush. With SO I just asked her out and got a yes. Both the LO and the crush ended in mutual disclosures of sorts, acknowledgement it couldn’t happen, and parting with good feelings to remember. After those two, I was mercifully free of it anything like it for about 7 years. Then came MFF and this is the first time I have got really stuck in the loops. Nothing has changed in what I am (or more accurately am not) going to do about it – I’m still firm on ‘non disclose team’. But I found what you said there was a good springboard into exploring for myself why this situation became and has stayed frustrating. I have let go of the ‘needing to know’ a great deal now, but it will still always rankle the T in me (the F firmly regulates it).
“Okay, now I’m wading too far into the “however this, however that…” T-style speculation. I should get my own alerts for that!”
Let us remember that being a T sometimes gives us traits to celebrate too. Just needs everything in balance.
How is the TO situation, still fairly stable for you?
LaR,
“There has also been just the odd time over the spell I’ve known her where it felt like it could have just ‘naturally developed’ if given oxygen…”
Hmm… Developed… IF you were available. (I’d sound an alarm for this one, except you know all too well). Or do you mean some of these ‘spells’ were before you met SO? Would that make LO the one that got away?? I recognise the situation however. Interesting that you only found your footing in your 30s. Do you think that could have something to do with your propensity for limerence? I think there is truth in the old saying about “sowing your wild oats”. (How are we talking about agriculture again?! 😂) Although I guess the amount of sowing needed varies by person. And for some, no amount of sowing seems to protect them from limerence!
Thanks for asking about TO. And umm… I think things are going ok. At least, things are fine when he’s just using me as his personal Instagram and what not. The dangerous situations are when something happens in my life that upsets me, and he is so nice and supportive. Or something happens in his life that upsets him (his SO seeing a lawyer behind his back for example), and I support him. Well… What can I do except try to harden my heart? The thing is that it’s easier to open up to him, who’s not part of my everyday life, than to friends nearby.
So I’m toeing the line – all by choice, mind you. I can’t blame anyone but myself. 😕
Trifles,
“Hmm… Developed… IF you were available. (I’d sound an alarm for this one, except you know all too well).”
🔍it was caveated, but probably not enough! I meant ‘if given oxygen’ to be my caveat, but could add ‘I deliberately didn’t give it oxygen in those moments, and nor did she’ (all true). I can’t trust my limited S ability that well, so I am not sure how much those moments were ‘moments’ or ‘brain moments’.
Before I met SO, LO was in a LTR of her own. So no (hangs head), those isolated moments did not occur back then, but since. Is/will LO be ‘the one that got away’? Gawd that’s a tricky question. I couldn’t look you in the eye and say ‘no, I will never feel like that’. If I do, it will just have to be something I live with as the outcome of my decisions at the time. As long as I have the friendship with her ticking on a similar level as now, I don’t really feel she has got away. That’s what feels more important right now than what I don’t / can’t have with her. Can that sustain, who knows? But I get your drift and it varies day by day how I feel – I wish I could just have a less ambiguous and twisty answer!
“How are we talking about agriculture again?”
A man reaps what he sows.
“Although I guess the amount of sowing needed varies by person. And for some, no amount of sowing seems to protect them from limerence!”
I think for me it was less about sowing my seeds all over the farmland estate, and more about carefully cultivating (resists urge to say ‘ploughing’ or ‘rooting’ – kind of) nice crops on small patches of the land I grew to like. I did kinda miss out when I was much younger. Then all through my 20s I had two LTRs so didn’t get out and investigate the farm. So your point is good to ponder on.
“The dangerous situations are when something happens in my life that upsets me, and he is so nice and supportive. Or something happens in his life that upsets him … and I support him. Well… What can I do except try to harden my heart?”
We all need people to open up to, and it seems he is the natural choice go-to for you now to do that with, and vice versa. And I get that, really I do. I could say all the usual platitudes about how it would be better to find other people etc, but then why? ‘Our people’ don’t appear that often. It all just sounds quite nice to me. Do you *need* to harden your heart to him? I feel like as long as he isn’t affecting your wellbeing negatively – and you will have a good radar for that – then (like I said before), no harm done. The way you describe it you do seem to be resisting limerence for him. If that changed, a rethink would be needed. I’m sure he will appreciate having you to talk to as he works through his stuff. I can see why the ‘personal Instagram’ side would get annoying, mind you.
Remember, us LwLers are here to help too, in our weird dislocated way. I know I owe you a smoothie or maybe a Mojito 🥴 😂
LaR, I guess we should change the discourse of “ones that got away”. It’s not really constructive. There’s different types of relationships and not all need to lead down a romantic path (even though the pair bonding drive is sometimes strong!). Like you always tell me, let’s just enjoy having found ‘our people’. Even if they might just be there for “a season” (possible in my case). And good for you for resisting dropping ‘rooting’ into the conversation!
You give me too much credit (that everything is under control)! We T-types have feelings too – that can burst to the surface! 😜 Looking at this from the outside, if I were to give the poster “Trifles” advice, I would probably tell her she needs to suck it up and find someone else to confide in. And thanks for your offer of using LwL for that. … But I’m just not comfortable, in this open space. Also, certain things fit into the discussion here but there’s more to life than just limerence! Though it may be hard to imagine..!
I was doing better with diversifying my needs/feelings when I recently had harmless crushes on several people (ah, this stage in life!) – all turned out to be partnered and/or ethically gray zone to date! 😂 (I don’t meet a lot of new people.) But unfortunately(!) I’ve gotten over those.
I maintain that I’m not limerent because limerence to me is obsessive. But I really like him and these moments of emotional closeness are a little difficult to deal with when we are geographically far apart.
And I’ve accepted the fact that we won’t be able to meet, at least not in the near future. So it’s just as futile as limerence in its own way.
Btw, how did you figure out that the Mojito was my drink? 🤔 (Ok, mine and every other woman’s!) If you don’t have all the ingredients I’ll settle for a Cuba libre. 👍
Trifles,
Wow, I had to look up your fancy name for a rum and coke. How did I know Mojito?! It’s that ‘N’ in me! (Or maybe I fluked it from the mint choice in the Smoothie).
More to life than limerence – like, really, what?! But joking aside, I get that, and that not everything can be dealt with here.
I’d say the combination then – don’t let TO block you from finding more people to confide in or opportunities / horizons to enjoy, but also appreciate what you have with him and resist questioning it too much. Will that do for balance?! My criteria is ‘if it isn’t doing net harm to us or others, it isn’t a bad thing’. And I’m not claiming I apply that perfectly to my situation at all – it’s more something I’d say to others on a “do as I say, not as I do” basis. We both know that not everything goes where the T brain wants it to!
“Will that do for balance?!”
Yes! That’s exactly what I’m going for. (Easier said than done sometimes) I also need a good balance of other interests so as not to dwell on one thing/person too much.
The “net harm vs good” idea is worth following as well.
Aha, there was mint in the smoothie! I couldn’t remember what there was besides strawberry. I figured you had that and S. Ellis-Bextor to work with. 😜
I’d momentarily forgotten about Sophie. Was thinking more about what farmers like to sup after a taxing day out in the fields 🍸
Ha, you got me almost laughing out loud on my morning commute! Thanks, now I have an image of LO daintily sipping his mojito after a long day out in the field(?!)
Well if said person is anything like my wife’s grandfather who worked in the fields for a living, he liked coffee in the morning and when his day was done he would crumble cornbread into a glass of milk and eat it with a spoon.
Adam, thanks for that visual as well! 😁
I would say that’s a man after my own heart – if I had any idea what corn bread tasted like (must be a Southern US thing)!
@MJ
Dude! You left out some major details! I only just saw your response to Bewitched. Well, maybe there is hope…
You painted a pretty hopeless picture in your update!
Maybe ask her to go for dinner with a bit more lead up next time. Perhaps the impromptu just wasn’t the right time. If she says no again, then I’d leave the ball in her court. Even tell her that. Personally, I like doing the asking. Every relationship I’ve been in where I made the first move was great. Every relationship where he made the first move was awful!
Good luck 🍀
I will try and keep an eye out over coming weeks. I usually read the blog post on a Saturday (here in the future in Australia) and quickly scan the recent post list. I rarely have time to read further than that so hope I don’t miss any major developments!
Cordelia,
Thank you for the reply. I’m glad you kept scrolling. I wanted you to see the update about her not ever wanting kids. She said she really values her freedom now. I think her not having a SO is where she’s comfortable at for the moment. So maybe she’s just not wanting the commitment. I get it because it does change things. At the same time though, I don’t want to be the clingy type either. Pedastaling her isn’t even on my radar.
I keep thanking God I am sustaining this. She couldn’t have come at a better time.
This post will probably get lost in the foray of messages posted, but I hope you’ll come back and find it. I’ll be keeping an update somewhere. As always I appreciate your support. Now let’s see if Lady Friend finally asks me out on that date..
You wish MJ.. 🤣🤣
MJ,
when I was younger I developed a friendship with a male coworker who was older, maybe +15-20 years. We got on so well. In hindsight I was probably very naïve that I hadn’t picked up on the signals that he wanted it to go further. Okay he was also married! But even if we were both single I don’t think I would have wanted it to go ‘that’ way even though he was very attractive. It ended a bit sour when he gave me a romantic gift and I rejected it, in an overly dramatic way. Maybe he had limerence, who knows ?!
I’m not saying your situation is the same. But I would say don’t overthink it or push it and value the friendship, especially with a coworker. (As some others have said)
Your interaction at the weekend developed naturally without planning, that was what was so nice about it.
Going out to dinner in the evening is more on the lines of a date – which I get her being maybe more wary to do so.
Thanks Imho.
Your post makes a lot of sense. It’s just very difficult for me to not want to be closer with her because I long so much to be with someone right now. Like all those pent-up months of getting worked up over LO, only to have it self-destruct before I ever got it off the ground. (My fault though, I get it) I feel like I have so much love to give and it’s so hard to have to contain it with this person.
You may have been in the right, from your older co-worker, rejecting a romantic gift from a him. Especially since he was married. Although he was probably in a crap situation his Wife and hopeful you would stick around to see how far he could push you. Not your fault. He probably meant you no harm.
Prior to LO, I met a married Woman and tried being her Friend too. I might have just been the perfect idiot to get her a gift like that, if she would have obliged me. I’ve never really been too smart when it comes to the opposite sex. I admit it. I guess that explains why a LE finally almost drove me off the deep end.
I’m really not trying to go there again. I’m working on this great Friendship now. Hopeful it will continue towards something lasting. Even if it never goes romantic. She’s a very sweet Woman with a good heart and I love getting to know her better, every time she is around.
MJ,
Thanks for your eloquent reply.
The guy at work was a nice man and not a creep. It could have been someone like you or hell me now !
I have the urge to give perfect gifts for my LO a lot of the time!
So yes, I should have been kinder and more understanding in my rejection, but I was young and to some degree liked a drama.
I think as a younger woman I was very wary of men and didn’t realise some men are very sensitive and have truly romantic not just seeking a one night stand.
Anyway, I’m so pleased you have this new friendship and you are in a happier place than when you were first here.
Maybe would be good for you to build connections or interests beyond LF to give you fun and joy etc. spread the love!
Best wishes
Imho/MJ,
Oh, gifts (sigh)
Just the greatest and yet the worst thing, right?!
IMHO
That was one of the most frustrating parts of others observing me with LO. Everyone thought it was a crush to an old man perving on a younger woman. It was infuriating and frustrating because it would draw attention not just to me but to her. And I didn’t want that so I had find other outlets for my anger and frustration. Yes there are men that want a meaningful connections with a woman without any ulterior motives. But for the most part society, at least American society, doesn’t see it that way.
“Oh, gifts (sigh)
Just the greatest and yet the worst thing, right?!”
LaR,
Lady Friend has a bday coming up in a few weeks. She’s not too happy about turning 30 but I tell her to stay positive anyway. It could be worse..
I’m gifted up and ready to do the deed. Again! Might be the greatest or the worst thing.. 🤔
Keep you posted..
Sorry Cordelia, maybe that came across a bit harsh given your more complicated history, but I’ll stick to the same basic claim. If you knew LO was limerent for you, would it change things? If LO was just using you for years for valdiation would it change anything?
FYI we have some similarities in our cases. LO2 has never really gone away fully (despite LO3) after 19 years. We dated, she pushed me away, and (years later) later said she regretted it, but prior to that we had muddled into a few years of online friendship as I was now with SO (who is great). The ‘confession’ came after I accidentally confronted her and then NC. Main difference is she went NC as i dont think she was ‘that’ into me, or she is just a decent person and didn’t want to mess with my relationship. The question taunted me for years though, until kids came along and, well, who the hell has time for anything except surviving that and feeling as unsexy as hell!
Regardless, my key point is that with a recent relapse, I realized that what I have to finally accept is it doesn’t matter why she behaved as she did. Even if she had back then confessed undying love to me, I dont think I would have left my partner. The moment had passed, the limerence and being pushed and pulled was so harrowing I don’t think I could ever built a normal relationship with her. That realization has taken a long long time to come. It is probably easier for me as she was more clearly not ‘that’ into me, so don’t want to be unduly harsh.
@HJ
I’m not sure I completely follow your two posts. I’ll give a quick rundown of why it matters and then I’m out again…
I’m guessing you’ve never been gaslit. I mean seriously gaslit over years. My ex did that to me. One time he did something pretty bad. I asked him if he’d done it. He got very aggressive with me and denied it. This time I had witnesses! People who also saw and heard what he’d done. I had flashbacks of all the other times he’d done that and then convinced me I was the asshole. He destroyed me.
Working with a psychologist I gradually got rid of everyone in my life who had trampled on me. I figured out why LO gave me night terrors. As I said above, those terrors were awful. I was desperate to know why I had that response to LO (especially because understanding the trigger could stop me having them again maybe with someone else). I went looking through old conversations we’d had online and in emails etc. I was stunned by what I’d found. A lot of this was prior to me having an SO. In fact, LO never flirted with me when I had an SO. Nor when he had an SO.
For me, I wanted to know if I’d had that love for someone who could use me for validation every time we were both single… or if he’d genuinely had feelings for me. It matters because my instinct says he wasn’t using me for validation and there were reasons for his denial. But after years of having someone convince me I was wrong, I struggled to trust my own judgment about things. The one thing I did then find out about LO that has me feeling he was vindictive and not as kind as I had thought is that I asked him for the truth because I felt it was the lies between us causing the terrors. He told me I needed to figure that out myself. In the end, I didn’t need him to help me figure it out. It took me a couple of years to fully see the patterns in our conversations and when they coincided with the periods I had terrors. So, when you’re in that kind of psychological distress and the two men you’re closest to seem to have difficulty with the truth, it says a lot about who you are and what you’ll allow. I caught my SO in a big lie. I still don’t know if MY perception of LO was accurate and what the reasons were behind his behavior. Without that information, it makes it hard for me to trust myself and my judgement.
I was in a relationship after everything with LO blew up for about a year. He is a beautiful soul. He wasn’t right for me, so I ended things. But it felt good to be with someone who was safe. Who I knew I could trust right from the start. It somewhat repaired my soul. So I’m comfortable with not knowing how LO felt. But I would still LIKE to know. I do feel that if I came across another LO-type these days, I’d nip it in the bud. That’s the important thing.
I intended for that to be short. It really wasn’t. I have to get back to work! 😅
@MJ
Next time I’m in LWL-town, I’ll ask at the saloon (AKA coffeehouse) where you’re at ☺️
@MJ
Next time I’m in LWL-town, I’ll ask at the saloon (AKA coffeehouse) where you’re at ☺️
That’s great news favorite Cheerleader.
I’ll be here.. I’ll save you a spot at the bar. Right next to me.. 😇
Cordelia, yes, I woudl definitely LIKE to know, we are agreed there. As long as that likeing doesn’t become wanting or needing to know, then I think that is enough progress.
Recently I actually began to think that maybe not knowing is better, because it will allow me to decide for myself that it doesn’t matter. If I need to know to reach ‘closure’ I will have made myself dependant on her ‘revealing’. The decision to move on has to be mine, whether it is to nromal friendship, NC etc.
Yeah you really did get gaslit pretty badly, sorry to hear that. Also, the answer ‘you have to figure that out yourself’ though is just super sh*tty’. Whatever his reasons might have been, that shows such a lack of compassion…
And yes, back to work….
I agree, Lim-a-rant, and that’s one of the reasons I decided to discuss it in the Coffeehouse. There does seem to be a growing awareness that we need to find a way to escape the endless escalation of rhetoric.
People are actually dying (through both murder and suicide) in the fall out.
Thanks Tom. I’m going to butt out of the politics bit for a while and see what other LwLers have to say about it now, but I’m very glad you opened this up and am interested to see where it goes.
LwL, with its benefit of anonymity, feels a safer spot to find out how people are feeling about all this than almost anywhere in my offline or online life. I’ve had to put in the hard yards and reading, like you, to get into a space to be able to value and appreciate opposite political viewpoints.
I voted for Trump not for him as a person, but for the reality that the Republican party doesn’t tend to overtax us. It could have been Mickey Mouse running and I would have voted for him! I got tired of living paycheck to paycheck since the Democrats came into office four years ago. And I have a good paying job! I know that Trump as a person isn’t an ideal president; but I have to keep in mind that he is not a dictator. For me, it’s more about the platform and what it stands for. The Republican platform stands more for less government involvement and less taxing the people. This day and age, the Democratic platform leans more toward a sort of weird welfare system — it heavily taxes us and produces a lot of social dependence on the government. This has been my experience as an American woman living in California all my life. Just my two cents.
Some of my COO classmates (high end IT jobs, NOT from check to check) in CA voted for Trump, despite they can’t stomach his personality. They care about their pocket first.
“I know that Trump as a person isn’t an ideal president; but I have to keep in mind that he is not a dictator.”
He wants to be a dictator, though, he’s made that quite clear, and he stands a vastly better chance of achieving it this time around.
I live in an extremely red state and the idea that the right wing doesn’t hate the left is entirely laughable to me. They do hate us, they think we’re demon-possessed.
The idea that, somehow, understanding them will fix everything, is also laughable to me. They’re not trying to understand us, at all. It’s the kind of thinking that people adopt when they’re trapped in an abusive relationship. The proper thinking when trapped in a relationship with a malignant narcissist isn’t “how can I understand this maniac better?” It’s “how can I regain my power and get the upper hand in this situation.” If someone hates you and wishes you ill, there’s nothing to understand.
Second your opinion here: Trump wants to be a dictator, and will try to do so within his power.
Growing up in a dictatorship COO, I could smell it from a thousand miles away.
@ Snow
Narcissists running countries is the norm now.
Don’t come anywhere near Canada, the stench will knock you over.
“Narcissists running countries is the norm now.”
That’s so demoralizing ☹️
Trudeau is Narcissist as well? Not really following him, only I was surprised when he separated with his wife…
it seems that things running inside a house often mismatch their public appearance, like in Bill Gates’ case, and many, many more…
There are reasons, known or unknown behind positive or negative emotions.
Understanding Narcissists in a very abusive relationship means to firmly WALK AWAY — the ONLY upper hand, with a sense of POWER and PEACE, instead of a stormy REACTIONS, which is a “loss” in Stoic way.
For those who wants to win a ultimate war against Narcissists of all types —
https://narcsite.com/about/
https://m.youtube.com/@hgtudor-theultra
AFP
I think you’re correct where people may be white supremacists or misogynists or anyone who voted for Trump out of hatred. Those people scare the shit out of me. There’s no reasoning with them nor understanding them.
I’m talking about the people that Tom is talking about. People who voted for Trump because they believe he will do good things for the US. I told my friend that I just can’t agree (even if I began to understand why she voted for him) and that time will tell. If she’s wrong, it could be disastrous for the US and the whole world. If she’s right, honestly I’ll be happy to be wrong for the sake of everyone.
I agree. Understanding won’t fix everything, if you fundamentally disagree with the direction that Trump wants to take the country in.
But, understanding can give you back a sense of agency, calm the worst fears, and make you more effective at persuasive counter argument.
As an example: when someone voted for Brexit because they think the EU is a corrupt, bloated bureaucracy and wanted Britain to be in charge of her own fate, calling them a racist who hates immigrants immediately tells them you are someone whose opinion can be dismissed.
If instead you point out that reforming the system from within while maintain economic access to our biggest trading partner is a much better strategy, they are more likely to listen.
Similarly, understanding that someone is a malignant narcissist and that explains why your relationship is abusive is an incredibly powerful step for getting your escape strategy straight. But, assuming someone is a narcissist when they actually aren’t means it will be harder to predict their behaviour as you take steps to secure freedom and stay safe.
Understanding doesn’t mean affirming. My view is that more knowledge is almost always empowering.
Song of the Blog: “The Merry Little Minuet” – The Kingston Trio (1950)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUfUAnqRJTQ
IMO, what we’re seeing is the backlash of a sizeable number of people who feel disenfranchised to the point of taking action. History has any number of examples of what happens when that occurs, going back to at least the Roman Empire.
I’m not an Al Gore fan by any means. But, he said something recently that could be really scary. He warned of something of upward of a billion “climate migrants” who will move as a result of climate change. He said if you think thousands or a few millions of people showing up in your backyard is a problem, think of what tens of millions or more will be.
Climate migration goes back to the Ice Age. However, there were a lot fewer people and a lot more space.
Years ago, I was at Heathrow waiting to return to the US. I was talking to a gentleman from northern England. This was when Scottish Independence was coming up for a referendum. He said that while he sympathized with the idea, practically, it was a dumb as an idea as you could get. He ran off a list.
He had friends who lived on the proposed border. Their property would have been cut in two.
Scotland has no military. They’d have to contract out their defense.
Scotland has no independent Foreign Office. Countries would have to recognize them and treat them accordingly.
Scotland has no independent Central Bank. They would have likely had to adopt the Euro and they had no credit rating, hence borrowing money would be very hard. World Bank, here we come!
He went on. Not being in the UK, I don’t know if Scottish Independence was as polarizing as Brexit was.
LE,
It polarised Scotland down the middle from what I could glean, but most of England was a bit more ‘whatever’. England knew the logistics wouldnt work, but as it wasn’t an English decision, it was more of a curious watching from a distance to see what unfolded. Brexit in contrast split the people in half and broke up extended families and friendships.
Broadly agree. But there were also a number of English people that felt it was unjust that only one party in a centuries-old union got to vote on its future.
And for what it’s worth, I would have voted for maintaining the union because I love Scotland and felt England would have been greatly diminished by its loss.
(That’s also why I voted Remain – sentimental attachment to the European countries I loved visiting, justified by economic arguments for continuity of trade).
Tom,
“That’s also why I voted Remain – sentimental attachment to the European countries I loved visiting, justified by economic arguments for continuity of trade.”
One thing I picked up was how many voted Remain because they felt a sense of European identity and solidarity with Europe. As I’ve tried harder to understand leavers’ perspectives, I have realised these two things can be separated – you can have a European identity/liking for all things European AND still not want the arguably bloated and undemocratic structure of the EU. I couldn’t separate those two things in the past but felt I could not go on with what was happening – of being part of something to smear leave voters as ignorant racists and bigots. If 52% voted for it, there had to be something a bit more to it, even if I don’t agree with some/much of it. I looked into what they had to say more.
US civic lesson:
The US has “states,” “commonwealths,” and “territories,” with the District of Columbia as an outlier, “states” having the highest status. Complicating things is the fact that several states identify as commonwealths but aren’t legally. As nearly as I can figure it out, commonwealths and territories are places of strategic significance and don’t want anybody else to have that we could otherwise care less about. If it weren’t for some of the islands in the Pacific, where would have tested our nuclear weapons? Crappy, but true.
Puerto Rico, for example, has a well-established, occasionally violent, separatist movement. They’ve been quiet for quite awhile now. Puerto Rico actively pushes for statehood, which would give them more representation in Congress and tilts decidedly to one side. It would also cost a lot more money to maintain. [I think that the only way the US will ever admit another state is to adopt something akin to the Missouri Compromise that you can’t admit a “Red State” unless you also admit a “Blue State.” Balance of power is a thing.]
I worked in an agency that had a large number of people from Puerto Rico in it. You’d hear as much Spanish in elevators and the cafeteria as you did English. Somebody complained that it over-recruited from Puerto Rico. I think it was filed by an HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities.) They had to cut back recruiting on the island. Many of my former coworkers had strong ties to the island and visited frequently. Not a single one of them wanted to live there.
When Puerto Rico was making one of their pushes for statehood, I mentioned to a coworker from there that why not just cut them loose and make the separatists happy. A lot of people on the mainland wouldn’t care or would actively support the idea.
He said that would be a disaster. He said that if the US granted Puerto Rico independence, given the corruption of the local government, marginal infrastructure, and brain drain from the island, in 3-5 years Puerto Rico would be a step above Haiti.
Be careful what you wish for.
In 2017 I spearheaded my town’s women’s march against Trump and yet… I voted for him in this last election… Instead of trying to explain myself I beg you to listen to a few of the erudite and intelligent interviews on The Great Simplification podcast that changed my vote/worldview. Really. Just humor me a moment, drop the limerence habit for a split second, and go look at names listed under “episodes” and tell me you’re not impressed (or terrified if you’ve never heard anything about polycrisis). The two specific episodes that turned my vote Trumpy were: “Reality Round Table 12: The Global States of the U.S. Election: Debt, the Dollar and Military Power” with Michael Every, Luke Groman (and Nate Hagen) and episode 118 with Michael Every: “The many -isms of the Metacrisis'”.
No matter who says what, I will never vote for Trump even in my next life as a real ghost.
I’m sufficiently exposed to the MAGA worldview to know this would prompt a joke about the dead having voted for Biden in the 2020 election.
Another example of how the discourse has collapsed into point-scoring.
DrL,
Do you know anything about Chicago politics?
It’s well documented how the “ghost voters of the First Ward” swung Illinois for Kennedy in 1960. There was also a documented instance of one precinct that had only 13 registered voters counting 27 votes for Kennedy.
Ghosts can’t just rest in peace in Cook County, IL, they’re required to return from the grave at least every 4 years to vote.
I didn’t know much about US election systems before 2016, but it’s been part of my education since. I have to admit to being astonished as to how complex and partisan it is. In the UK we have paper ballots, one election day (unless you request a postal vote ahead of time), and the results are known by the following day. It’s all overseen by the electoral commission which is civil service, not party political.
The idea of counts going on for weeks, ballots being disputed and cured, machines of questionable functionality that can break down, and partisan election officials is totally alien. It seems to invite suspicions and doubt.
When my daughter was young and in a stroller, we voted in the election. I put the “I voted” sticker on her coat.
A woman in line saw it and said it was cute. My response was that I was from Chicago and back there, my daughter probably had voted, likely twice.
It’s interesting. One party’s platform is based on voter disenfranchisement and the other party’s platform is about election integrity.
Sometimes, it’s hard to tell which party is which.
LOL Snow!
We were in dire straits here in Canada before the election and Trump will slap tariffs on us so fast our heads will spin. So, further down the rabbit hole we gooooooo….
But having said that, I believe he does have his countries best interest at heart. Not like the a*hole we have here.
Anna,
“ I believe he does have his countries best interest at heart“.
Disagree with you here, he only has his own goal at heart — to become an unstoppable dictator, the addiction of which still won’t fill his bottomless, pathologically narcissistic hole.
It’s a scary situation but maybe not get to as bad as COO, we’ll see. I really hope I am wrong.
@Snow
I guess we can agree to disagree.
Don’t get me wrong he reminds me of our dictator here, only more powerful.
I don’t even know if you reside in the US?
I hate politics and steer clear when I can but he only has 4 years to get anything done. If he can.
Lets hope he does it for the American people.
Anna,
Yes. I live in the East coast, voted, even worked 17 hours on a poll site on 5th, and took my anger (after listening to a Trumpian co-worker’s babbling all day) out on LaR, who self-claims to be a “vanilla” ghost here.
Trump already changed the nature of Supreme Court, and can change a lot, a lot more in another 4 years now with R majority in congress. I also hate politics, but politics affect small people’s life, concretely, the world wide.
Snow, Anna,
If I was to try and put a finger on what my ‘vanilla’ means, I would identify two things. The first is to say that of all the options I have, in my adult voting life I have gone every way at different times. Second – my main political goal right now (the one I would stand in a protest march for) is the one DrL identified – more positive, truthful and constructive discourse between all sides. If we don’t get that, eventually lots of people are going to die as a result – it is as simple as that (DrL says they already are). That is more important to me than any one party’s view.
Anna, I’m glad you can see that your leader is a dictator. My mate who emigrated over there can’t see it. Dictators exist on all sides of the political spectrum. Some advertise the fact, some hide it in plain sight. I hope Canada does the right thing in its next general election.
Both of you – read The Righteous Mind by Haidt (DrL’s rec) if you haven’t already. It is essential reading anyway, but Snow, after reading it, you’d understand what my ‘vanilla’ really meant.
LaR,
As an ESL speaker, I’m “entitled” and much freer to use a word anyway imaginative or unimaginative — twist it and toss it around to fit my purpose or make a purple prose out of it… 😳
In COO, we also have a term “Vanilla guy” to describe sweet, smooth, feminized men (not for dessert)…. 😆
I’ll see if I have time to tackle Haidt’s book over the winter break, normally I don’t spend that much time in politics but only keep updates by scanning the news of big newspaper (not from any social media). I’m more into reading poetry and relevant (to me) psychology stuff, still slowly chewing and digesting SCHREIBER’s stuff linked by LE.
Hi Snow,
My meaning behind ‘vanilla’ (which I think is a common one) is something like ‘mild – not that exciting’.
I’ve heard about your ‘vanilla guy’ sense of it too.
Bits of Haidt’s book are about politics, but I wouldn’t say it’s the main theme. Loads of evolutionary biology, animal psychology and a deep dive into morals too. Something for everyone in there. I think it does well at explaining why each side (actually he has three sides) of the political spectrum thinks like it does (the value and moral bases), and why it is so hard for them to ‘speak’ to each other as a result. It is like two different languages being spoken.
“People who voted for Trump did so primarily for reasons they felt were beneficial to themselves, while those who voted for Harris did so for reasons that may never impact them personally but would benefit those around them.”
Hi Seagull,
Not sure if you are quoting someone else here, but this sentiment would be shared (in the opposite direction) by Trump voters.
“People who voted for Harris did so primarily to feel good about themselves, moralising about policies that don’t affect them, while smearing the people who suffer the costs. People who voted for Trump did what was actually best for the country.”
That misunderstanding comes from misreading the other side’s motives.
In this case, Harris supporters, motivated by a desire to help others, voted for policies that would increase government support for marginalised groups. Trump supporters, motivated by a desire to help others, voted for policies that would reduce government overreach, overspending, and mismanagement of crime and immigration.
I suppose the fundamental disagreement is this: is government the solution or the problem?
Hello Dr. L –
I do not know who wrote the quote. I read it in two different newspaper articles, but the author is unknown. Perhaps I should have added -Unknown at the end.
In any case, I agree with the quote I entered above. All I know is what I see. I am 66 years old and I have been around a long time. I have seen and heard way too much!
I am an American married to a Scot (we were negatively affected by Brexit and still are). Most American’s don’t understand or care about Brexit. We moved to the US in Sept 2016 and it hasn’t been easy. Now add my husband’s limerence for a co-worker in 2019.
Tomorrow being Thanksgiving (which used to be my favorite holiday), I would like to post something my limerent husband said to me 2 weeks after D-Day (Nov 15, 2019), on Thanksgiving Day – Nov 28, 2019. He looked at me over the dinner I prepared and said, “I’m torn between the two of you.” His co-worker? She had been married 42 years at the time. Unbeknownst to me until Sept 2022, he asked her to marry him in a letter given to her at work the day after D-Day.
I had never heard of the word limerence until Nov 16, 2019, when I typed the words “My husband is having an affair and seems like a stranger to me.” Your website was the first one regarding limerence I visited. I have been visiting ever since. A few days ago was my first post on this or any website dealing with limerence.
Again, all I know what I see.
Since this is a coffeehouse I can share half drunk I found this song and I’m listening it on loop while I play Xbox. Shout out to the tomgirls I always seem to keep falling for …
Terri Clark — Dirty Girl
https://youtu.be/_c5E6aIByMY?si=XRdRbygqO6NoNsRW
I’ll make an actual relative comment Monday. I hate typing on my phone.
Sheesh, Adam,
Sometimes, you make my job so easy…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anC6uFVHZCA – Frasier (Season 3, Episode 7)
L.E.
In my younger years I thought I wanted to marry a Mary Poppins or June Cleaver when I grew up. Instead I always fall for Laverne’s and Shirley’s. So I guess it is no surprise an attractive tough as nails tomgirl country singer is my kryptonite.
But I ain’t no bad boy though.
Unless when the door’s closed and Momma asks real nicely.
After the election, my Daughter txtd everybody in our Family chat and said she is going to die.. Knowing that this txt was concerning the election and my present status with her, I knew the topic was a slippery slope. So I decided to reply back with, “Not today you are.”
The txt string has not continued..
Personally I am glad the process is over. I was tired of all the divisiveness and rhetoric. Everything is really going to be alright and in time, I am hopeful many will see this..
Im sorry to hear this MJ my friend. On the political campaign there a lot of mixed feelings. My wife and I are on two different planes. Know that people are different. I know you are a loving father. And you want to protect and support your daughter. I’m here for you my brother. I never had daughters but I always wanted one. I know you will cherish her because you are a good father. And I know you love her. Limerence set me apart from our youngest boy. But be there for her. She’ll recognize your serenity. I got your back my brother.
All good Adam. Thank you Friend. She’ll be alright. My Ex keeps telling me to let her keep finding her way and allow her to grow up while she’s away at College. She’s coming home soon for Thanksgiving break.
My Ex pretty much raised her without me anyway. I wasn’t around much with my Daughter like I was with my Son, so relationship between the two of them is quite different. Some resentment still and probably room for her to always say she has Daddy issues. However, I’m just grateful she’s turned out pretty decent without becoming a TikTok influencer or resorting to OnlyFans..
The Flight of the Crows
Emily Pauline Johnson
The autumn afternoon is dying o’er
The quiet western valley where I lie
Beneath the maples on the river shore,
Where tinted leaves, blue waters and fair sky
Environ all; and far above some birds are flying by
To seek their evening haven in the breast
And calm embrace of silence, while they sing
Te Deums to the night, invoking rest
For busy chirping voice and tired wing—
And in the hush of sleeping trees their sleeping cradles swing.
In forest arms the night will soonest creep,
Where sombre pines a lullaby intone,
Where Nature’s children curl themselves to sleep,
And all is still at last, save where alone
A band of black, belated crows arrive from lands unknown.
Strange sojourn has been theirs since waking day,
Strange sights and cities in their wanderings blend
With fields of yellow maize, and leagues away
With rivers where their sweeping waters wend
Past velvet banks to rocky shores, in cañons bold to end.
O’er what vast lakes that stretch superbly dead,
Till lashed to life by storm-clouds, have they flown?
In what wild lands, in laggard flight have led
Their aërial career unseen, unknown,
’Till now with twilight come their cries in lonely monotone?
The flapping of their pinions in the air
Dies in the hush of distance, while they light
Within the fir tops, weirdly black and bare,
That stand with giant strength and peerless height,
To shelter fairy, bird and beast throughout the closing night.
Strange black and princely pirates of the skies,
Would that your wind-tossed travels I could know!
Would that my soul could see, and, seeing, rise
To unrestricted life where ebb and flow
Of Nature’s pulse would constitute a wider life below!
Could I but live just here in Freedom’s arms,
A kingly life without a sovereign’s care!
Vain dreams! Day hides with closing wings her charms,
And all is cradled in repose, save where
Yon band of black, belated crows still frets the evening air.
******
Would that my soul could see, and, seeing, rise
To unrestricted life where ebb and flow
Of Nature’s pulse would constitute a wider life below!
Rainy Night
Dorothy Parker
Ghosts of all my lovely sins,
Who attend too well my pillow,
Gay the wanton rain begins;
Hide the limp and tearful willow.
Turn aside your eyes and ears,
Trail away your robes of sorrow,
You shall have my further years,—
You shall walk with me tomorrow.
I am sister to the rain;
Fey and sudden and unholy,
Petulant at the windowpane,
Quickly lost, remembered slowly.
I have lived with shades, a shade;
I am hung with graveyard flowers.
Let me be tonight arrayed
In the silver of the showers.
Every fragile thing shall rust;
When another April passes
I may be a furry dust,
Sifting through the brittle grasses.
All sweet sins shall be forgot;
Who will live to tell their siring?
Hear me now, nor let me rot
Wistful still, and still aspiring.
Ghosts of dear temptations, heed;
I am frail, be you forgiving.
See you not that I have need
To be living with the living?
Sail, tonight, the Styx’s breast;
Glide among the dim processions
Of the exquisite unblest,
Spirits of my shared transgressions.
Roam with young Persephone,
Plucking poppies for your slumber …
With the morrow, there shall be
One more wraith among your number.
****
All sweet sins shall be forgiven but not forgotten;
I will live to tell their siring.
Hear me now, nor charge me rotten
Wistful still, and still aspiring.
🐦🔥
Hi all. I have been following the site for a while but have never posted. I was keen to get some perspective on something. I have been waiting on the right topic but since this is a coffeehouse, thought I’d bite the bullet and post here.
My question is, does limerence for a person ever completely die or does it just cool down to an ember, waiting to be rekindled in the right circumstances?
To set this question into context, I’ll tell you a shortened version of my story. I became limerent for a co-worker around a year ago. I’d always felt the “glimmer” since we met years previously but I made the mistake of breathing air into it during a works night out by telling him I felt attracted to him after a round of tequila. A year ago is when it intensified into full blown limerence. And it transpired it was mutual. Great eh? Nope. I have an SO as does he. Nothing physical happened but we started spending more time with one another (lunches and coffees) and disclosed our feelings to one another. It was hurtling pretty close to an emotional affair if not already there.
Then something catastrophic happened to his SO. I won’t share the detail of that but I am pretty sure it snapped him out of the madness and he said that things had to change. And he was right. A change of some sort was inevitable but that was the catalyst. And they have changed. For months now our contact has been much, much less and of a completely different tone to before but I have struggled with it and I still do. I miss him badly and I feel so guilty about it. I am not a serial limerent. I have never encountered this before (I’m 41) and it has utterly rocked my world and caused me to question my marriage. How could this happen if things were right between us? I am extremely close to leaving. We don’t have kids but still I made a commitment and I do not want to set that aside lightly. I had hoped my limerence would die down over these last 6 months or so and it maybe has a tiny bit but not a lot. My brain is still addled with thoughts of him.
He is taking some time off work now. I am not likely to see him at work for weeks if not months and possibly more depending on what he has to do. I am taking that time to turn our now infrequent contact into no contact but I’m worried. I’m worried that this will never completely go away. I will have opportunities to change my job (a job I love and am good at) and I wonder if taking one of these opportunities is the right thing.
So I’m interested in whether people think limerence can ever go away or can it only ever be managed like any other addiction? Will it die down only to be reignited on his return? His feelings for me seem to be gone so it must be possible, right? Unless it was never mutual in the first place.
My past LO’s—a part of me still cares about them, but those old limerence feelings are long gone. Sometimes it takes a while, though. My last big one took several years to die off, and that’s even with hostility between us keeping us NC. Nowadays, though, it’s all gone.
Hi DomO
Welcome to LwL!
I did the same thing as you and just followed this site and read as much as I could before I posted anything. I am in my 40’s too and Limerence just hit me out of the blue for the first time about a year and a half ago.
Feels like some other worldly being took possession of our minds and bodies. right?
So many wonderful people here that are at different stages in their Limerence, so you can get some great advice or they can just lend an ear if that’s what you need.
It seems that you are fairly early in your LE (limerence Episode) so it might take a bit for you to actually step back and take a look at what is really going on.
Right now you’re probably just trying to clear though the fog, especially when your LO abruptly exited and that’s when your feelings for him escalated I bet.
We have all been there.
I will, if I may, give you my opinion. (my opinion only)
You didn’t mention if you and SO are happy?
There are some who’s marriages are at the end and are looking for something else but from what I gather from most people it really isn’t the reason for Limerence, can be a bit of a catalyst but I do believe there is a lot more to it than just an unhappy marriage.
You also said that something happened to LO’s spouse and he snapped out of the madness…so you now know where his priorities lay.
I think maybe that was a good thing, as you will probably get to realize, Limerence can steer people into doing things that they profoundly regret later.
What really helped me in the beginning was going NO CONTACT I know this is very hard and since he is a co-worker probably impossible, but try low contact if you can. I can honestly say that was the hardest but most beneficial for me, it gave me the opportunity to take a step back and look at Limerence for what it really was.
If you have read any of my posts here you know I’m in therapy and I’m on quite the profound journey of self discovery. It’s truly amazing!
I do believe that Limerence has NOTHING to do with your feelings for your LO but EVERYTHING to do with how you feel about yourself.
So, to answer your question.
Yes… on all of it.
I am managing it right now, I’m getting to the root of WHY I fell into Limerence.
It has most definitely died down and I’m working towards never having it ignite again. If you get to the root of it, it won’t.
Can it go away?
I believe we are on this journey to understand and discover what we are lacking in ourselves.
Once that work is done, yes.
Anna,
I need time to “digest” and test your belief here: “I do believe that Limerence has NOTHING to do with your feelings for your LO but EVERYTHING to do with how you feel about yourself.”
Base on my romantic/LE experiences, I do agree LE has A LOT to do with what one truly needs at the time of onset and with how one feel about oneself. But the word “EVERYTHING’ is too exclusive for me.
First-sight Glimmer is related to one’s instinctual drive (Fisher, Tunnov) and it has something to do with particular LOs. What I have struggled before and now is that knowing LO is “wrong” for me (while not as bad as a Narc), with all sounding reasons, I still can’t get them out of my head sooner. Such an OCD-like obsession, I believe, has a lot to do with one’s past or some existing psychological conditions (eg. My OCD).
“NOTHING” also sounds a bit too exclusive. For different “LOs”, I had different feelings. A while ago, you said that LOs serves as a mirror to our buried needs or to help dig out something hidden within us, which I very much agree, which then means that different LO/MFF would drive out different parts of our Selfs during a “romantic”/LE experience.
Depressive LO5 often dragged me down to depression; Narc LO6 drove my buried anger towards Narc Mom and then punch his face (he was so like Mom). However, ET (despite his very disappointing flaws) helped pull out a lot of upbeat/positive stuff which I didn’t even know had existed inside me. With my own imaginations (also unaware I had the ability) of the Phantom (self-created or extracted out of my Self?) , my cptsd got mostly healed… totally unexpected.
I want to get over the LE completely, but don’t want to lose my imagination/creativity while firmly grounding in reality, bleak or illusively bright….
“I believe we are on this journey to understand and discover what we are lacking in ourselves.”
Totally agree with you here. An LE provides one a highly valuable opportunity to do self-discovery and self-growth work, which never ends anyway until one’s ultimate end… I hope every limerent here would seize the chance to learn more about Self.
💪 🫂
@Snow
Yes, I really need to stop using the term “Nothing to do with LO” and “Everything to do with you”
I also need to rein in my Therapy Oversharing.
Yes, I do believe that different LO’s will trigger different (shall we say sore spots) in us that I believe should give the Limerent person an opportunity to see what needs to be addressed within oneself.
Dr. Tom has created this safe space for us to come for information, share our stories and sometimes just to vent.
But everyone is different, people become Limerent for all sorts of reasons.
I know 100% why it happened to me and I have come to realize that I’ve been trying to push my own agenda here way too far. I say to myself “why can’t they see what’s wrong?’
How utterly self-centered I’ve been.
I feel like I owe the group an apology for that.
I wish each and everyone of you the best of luck moving forward with your journey through Limerence.
~Anna
Anna,
I did not mean to argue with you at all in my previous message, just wanted to discuss with you about our possible LE’s roots, since we had similar childhood background, and our therapists are similar in dealing with our cptsd impacts. Therefore, I highly appreciated your “therapy sharing”, because I did not really tell my therapists about my intense LE — too embarrassed to reveal. The first snobby one knew a little bit about it and moralized it, but we did not go into it deeply. I don’t know whether they knew about LE concept, I was unable to ask such “non-existent” question.
“Yes, I do believe that different LO’s will trigger different (shall we say sore spots) in us that I believe should give the Limerent person an opportunity to see what needs to be addressed within oneself.”
I agree with you on this at least for our two cases. I also see its truth, at least partial, in some other cases presented here. but not every limerent speculates his or her cases with your lenses, the sharing of which would point out another possibility or direction for those who otherwise might not have thought about such a psychotherapeutic approach.
No need to apology, just tell us how you’ve benefited from you and your therapist’s method. It’s not “self-centered”. Those whose case does not align with yours would just move on to other posts; and those who understand what you say would benefit a great deal in their LE recovering journey.
I so appreciate your occasional input here, which helped me understand the impacts of my “core damaging” in childhood and how they affected my LE.
Stay and share your LE recovering journey with us when you get some spare time…
Sliding into your chat to say I agree with Snow here, Anna. Your contributions are very much valued and there won’t be a single person here wants you to apologise.
Put that self doubt goblin back in the box!
There will always be differences to our stories and our perspectives on limerence, but debating them is the beauty of this place.
Heaven knows I realise LwL can be a time hoover, but please try to stay with us and chat when you have a sec.
Hope you’re still enjoying the winter weather there.
Hi Anna,
no, please keep sharing! These are important insights, of course we all know that everyone is different, there’s no need to apologize for anything!
I think what you write here is very valuable, please don’t stop.
Anna, just popping in to agree with Snow, LaR and Mila on every point!
What you speak is very valid and helpful.
Anna
I have been reading your story since you first started posting. Everyone seemed to be welcoming you and helping you with your limerence so I stayed on the sidelines. But I would add myself on the list of people here that encourage you to stay and share. We all help each other. It’s been 2 1/2 years for me, and I still have the help of the community here when I take two steps back and falter. Limerence can be like cancer; unrelenting.
Hi Anna, me too !
I gain a lot from all your posts and insights from your therapy journey! Thank you. So sorry, no you can’t go yet …😉
Hi DoMo. Welcome.
I have been in the same boat. Periodically, we used to have warm interactions, followed by cold ones. So, unlike your case where you had a constant period of warm interactions, followed by an abrupt ending, we had the hot – cold – hot – cold cycle. Part of me thinks LO did this on purpose, but who knows what LO thinks.
Needless to say, this uncertainty keeps the limerence fire burning. It can very well be the case that LO suddenly “pulls the plug”, and this change in dynamics becomes hard to take.
I would still recommend going NC, if you can. This will really help you in the long term.
Whether limerence goes away ever on not, I am still trying to figure this one out. For quite some time, I was not seeking LO, and thought I am making good progress. However, one recent LO exposure, and I am back to feeling sad.
This period of your LO not coming to work should help you manage your emotions.
All the best!
Hi DOMO,
the question of all questions.
I‘m on my third LE (or mainly out of it), and I cannot answer this with surety. While I also think that limerence is something that has to do with myself alone, I don’t think it‘s something bad and has to be torn out. It seems to be part of my personality, or let’s say, the good, alive, loving part of limerence is. The problems arise when it slides down into obsession and bad feelings.
I‘m not limerent anymore for my first LOs and hardly at all for the current one, but when I listen inside me, I know there are still traces, it’s nothing that was eradicated completely. Also, that would be weird, since I’m not a computer where you can just delete information. These LEs were part of my life. I still can feel the old neuronal pathways when I think hard about it, but I can easily decide not to follow them. So, it’s something that could be switched on again, I guess. But now it’s in my power to decide if I want it switched on.
Having said that and believing it, that’s easy for me because two of my LOs left my work, I’m not exposed to them anymore. But my first LO is still around, and he‘s the one I feel most that I couldn’t get limerent for anymore- I still can feel some of the old attraction sometimes, but I have seen too much of his bad sides now. So it’s not always a bad thing to have LOs sticking around, reality sometimes helps seeing them in a neutral to negative way.
Your case is a tough one since there was mutual disclosure. Can I tell you that I think it’s natural and necessary to have a time of grief now. You had these emotions and hope and attachment to him, now it’s severed, and of course you are grieving about it.
I’m neither sure about your marriage nor leaving your job. The pain and bad feeling can be so bad that one would go to all lengths to stop it, and to cut something off – job, marriage – might seem like a relief. I don’t know if you are in the right state of mind to decide that now, though.
If you are otherwise happy and fulfilled in your job, I wouldn’t be rash here, as I wouldn’t about a marriage with kids.
Could be that this a wake up call and your chance to see that you are not living the life you want to live! But you have to be sure about that. Limerence and grief can distort that.
I wish you to feel better soon, Dancing on my own!
Hi Dancing,
I think an ember will always be there, in the sense that whatever triggered the glimmer in you will always be there. But, it is possible to get over limerence and have that ember as little more than a warm memory.
One of the decisive things, though, is how the limerent experience plays out. In your case, a shock for LO snapped him out of the fantasy and forced him to focus on reality. For you, the fantasy was snatched away without notice. Even if your rational mind knows that the fantasy was not a purposeful part of your life and had no real future (as you both have SOs), being “robbed” of your supply will inevitably cause withdrawal pain and loss. Unfinished business and uncertainty, and loss of hope, all bundled together into psychological distress. You didn’t make a choice, it was made for you.
I think the best way forwards is to make that decisive choice for yourself now. Decide that you are going to learn from this experience, but move on from it. You are going to focus on purposeful goals that will help you get closer to an ideal future, and leave behind the romantic fantasy that was really just a diversion from your main life quest, but that taught you something important about yourself and your psychological vulnerabilities.
Basically, work on cultivating a recovery mindset.
Good luck!
Hi DomO,
Short answer is yes it can die.
Of 3 LEs (in 20 years) 2 are 100% extinguished. There is absolutely nothing left. If I had to write a list of “100 people I have to see before I die” I dont’ think either of them would make the top half, or even at all.
– LO1 (maybe 2.5 years) I had like 1.5 years of NC, then contact again an I felt nothing
– LO3 (4 months) was a colleague, no disclosure and I think no mutuality, triggered I think by my fathers death – and I literally snapped out of it one day and felt absolutely nothing, there was almost no fade out
The longer answer is probably closer to Dr L’s – there was none or no significant mutuality to LO1 and LO3. Where there is, and some sort of mutuality or barriers, it is harder in my experience and my impression also so for most others.
LO2 was someone I dated, did a classic DA dump on me, then (…blabla, not relevant to your case), but decisions were repeatedly made by her, and it took years for me to move on. I recently had a relapse due I think to mid-life crisis (this is now 19 years later), and have actually re-initiated contact to try and get some control on my feelings.
Finally, don’t leave your partner due to limerence. Limerence is all about you, and will definitely fade to at most not very much. If you leave them do it because you can fundamentally identify what is wrong in the relationship or what it doesn’t give you, and you have a clear idea of what you want. at a minimum i would definitely say try to write that down and wait at least a few months
To be blunt, it could be a midlife crisis, maybe due to not having children (I am just saying this as it is statisictically a common cause, not implying anything, I know many people actively choose not to, and many people had very traumatic attempts to have chidlren), maybe a trauma, it could really be due to your relationship, it could just be pure bad luck. Many people here see no reason it hit them, a set of us can trace it fairly clearly to a cause.
Dancing on My Own,
Yes, for me, many of my LE’s have died. Absolutely died. To the point where I’m no longer enthralled, attracted or even interested, in the former LO.
No idea how it happens, but it does. For me, they’ve dissipated, often without anyone else to take their place.
Usually I go no contact and do a lot of self-care, and tell myself to be patient. I keep a journal and celebrate a little when my first thought isn’t about my LO. I am forgiving and patient of myself, like I would be if I were getting over a bad flu.
I see my limerences as a bout with an illness. They are incredibly painful and awful for me. But, I try to forgive myself. And, I do know they have an end. But, I have to make it end. I can’t go back to “using”. I have to go no contact or very, very limited contact. Then, they die out.
Good luck 🙂
Thanks to everyone who has replied. It has been helpful. I am trying to be purposeful. So far this year I have thrown myself into work and achieved a fair bit of success and trained for and competed in a significant sporting event. I just feel like it is taking a long time to make progress through the fog. Some days are ok. Others I am on autopilot mode.
The rational part of me is desperate for the answer to my question to be “yes” but my limerent brain wouldn’t mind an ember to keep it warm.
I think I have a Limerence related example here. My so-called glimmery friend is a Trump supporter. I won’t say exactly where I live, but suffice to say we don’t even live in the United States, so I really don’t understand her fascination with this man. She is a full-on right wing conspiracy nut, but yet we actually get along very well. My politics are moderately centre-left, yet I probably lean slightly centre-right on some social issues. For that reason, I can actually find some common ground with my glimmery friend on some political issues, particularly issues pertaining to extreme wokeism. However, I do think that one of the main reasons why I never became limerent for this woman (other than the fact she’s married) are her extreme political views. I’ve honestly wrestled with how I can be a friend to someone with views I find so repugnant, but somehow we manage to steer clear of politics most of the time and just enjoy ourselves with all of our friends. I sometimes do have to wonder though why she flirted with me so much given the fact that I’m so obviously a “libtard” in her mind.
My LO is on the complete opposite end of the political spectrum from me. He is also a good friend. The difference in political views enhances the fantasy – our love could overcome even deep political divides (eye roll).
No, this is far worse than you realize. Trump is on a revenge and scorched earth tour, the political appointees are far smarter and nastier than you know (Stephen Miller’s family cut ties with him long ago, for example) and we have neo-Nazis and KKK members reappearing in public.
I don’t know what happened in the UK with Brexit, but one of the top Google searches in the US has been “can I change my vote” which indicates that people put exactly ZERO effort into their choices for candidates.
The choice was between a prosecutor who had been elected to various offices over the years and a felon.
PLUS women now only have rights to their bodies in a few states – rather than it being a HUMAN RIGHT. It’s not a hypothetical for us, even though it is for men. No one is demanding that they give blood or are mandated to donate a kidney or lobe of their liver or even that any male, anywhere, at any time, is either forced to have a vasectomy or be denied one.
The new regime is also combing social media and voter registrations to identify federal employees who are insufficiently loyal to Trump. Overlooking that they swear an oath to uphold the Constitution.
Pray for Ukraine, as well as the US.
As I recall , the top google search after the vote for Brexit was „what is the EU“ followed by „what is Brexit“ 😆so, not much effort before the voting there either
Yeah, as ever, most people just vote on instinct.
I honestly knew very little about the actual functioning of the EU before the vote. My analysis amounted to “I really like travelling in Europe, have lots of European friends and colleagues, and it seems mad to disrupt trade with our nearest neighbours.”
Just as emotional a basis for voting as “We want British sovereignty” if I’m honest.
Well yeah, I’m also culpable of voting like that in my country. I generally feel I know too little about politics and should inform myself more, and it’s all so complex when you dig deeper. I get confused and depressed, and in the end go by instinct like every other idiot.
It certainly looks like “scorched earth” is likely. I suppose the conflict of visions is:
1) Trump is a dictator who has violated every norm and law and is now going to indulge his worst narcissistic excesses.
versus
2) Trump was falsely smeared, prosecuted, impeached and undermined throughout his first term (and afterwards), and this time he is going to clean house of the corrupt officials that impeded his democratic mandate.
Both sides think their vision is self-evidently correct.
While I’m pontificating, another thought on Brexit. It has harmed the UK economy, but in part I think that is because the people implementing it were against it.
Dominic Cummings (a bit of a notorious figure in the UK, who was the power behind the throne of Brexit and Boris Johnson’s win) had a vision of a UK freed from the sclerotic EU bureaucracy, and able to form new trade deals with the US and Japan and maybe even BRICs economies. He also wanted to invest heavily in UK science and R&D. I’m not sure how realistic that vision was, but it was at least a feasible plan to break the UK out of a decade-long economic slump.
Instead, we got a “how can we minimise the damage?” approach to Brexit that kept the EU central to our economic plans. A classic British fudge. Out, but not decisively out and pursuing new opportunities. Out, but trying to keep some of the benefits and lessen the worst of the costs.
Looked at now, both the EU and UK have continued to stagnate, while the US has continued to grow (under both Trump and Biden).
Predictably, either Remain or “proper” Brexit would have been better choices than what we ended up with – politically grudging Brexit.
Trump inherited the Obama economy. For an example of the Trump economy, see what he did during the pandemic. Including advocating for ivermectin, chloroquine and bleach.
Biden inherited a mess. Since then, it’s improved at a steady rate.
But sure, 100% tariffs are paid by the country of origin (rolls eyes). Wait until they see their grocery bills. Because either we are going to pay it directly for the imported food, or we’re going to pay it indirectly in subsidies to farms in the US (conglomerates and individually owned). It IS going to hurt those who can least afford it. Including veterans – now the idea has come about to dismantle the VA.
Meanwhile, listening to people complain about the price of filling up their $80,000 truck – that they never use to tow – is ridiculous.
Anyway, a discussion for another board or at least another time.
Good luck to us all.
Well said. Something we can all agree on!
When it came to screwing over Feds, nobody in recent memory can match Obama. He froze Federal salaries for 3 years.
If Feds had received a typical raise over that period, I’d be making at least $1000/month more in retirement than I am now.
Yeah, Obama was great alright…
And, if Trump screwed up the economy, Biden took the ball and ran with it, right up to 9+% inflation. When it came to the economy, Biden made Jimmy Carter almost look good.
Well, now that a single party controls the executive, legislative, and, ostensibly, the judicial branches, if things don’t get better (however you define that) then we’ll all easily know who to blame. Because we sure won’t be able to blame the Democrats.
CSC,
That’s true.
But, the Dems have sold their souls to identity politics and I don’t know if there is anyone in the party capable of turning that around.
it doesn’t matter what the dems espouse. they’re not in control. the ones in control get to try to do better. i’m just hoping, in case they aren’t able to do better, that we all still have a vote, when it comes time to make a different choice, next time around. and, that our country hasn’t been incinerated, or washed out to sea.
This could be something, but I think in practice most trade deals and supply chains are based on fundamentals. Trade volumes feed into an economies performance, but are only a part of it, and increased trade frictions then only affect a part of that. It doesn’t matter that much e.g. how the cheese or shellfish trade balance is composed – are we sending too much cheddar? should we be sending more artisan cheese over? The individual tragedies of these businesses or fisherman closing is not that relevant long term to the countries future.
The british economy is fundamentally driven by the quality and focus of the education system churning out e.g. many brilliant scientists and artists in the broadest sense, and not that many engineers or software programmers, being ‘the’ international financial hub, a whole bunch of domestic law around property rights and many other things, and a intrinsic laissez faire approach to business and wages. Brexit can change the long term direction, but I think more fundamental is that all policy pushes in the same direction, or it pulls in different directions, contradicts and cancels each other out.
The chinese understand far better than probably anyone else in the world apart from perhaps the South Koreans about how interlinked all decisions are, and how to focus an entire people around it. Britain and much of the west is locked in a hugely complex set of decisions about what we want to be and we are failing to agree. There is a fundamental problem sharing a currency and trade law, but having differing economic goals. Add on to this cultural differences and diverging views on the way forward, and the result is lethergy around the future. The new right understand this, so even though they are incoherent, they can get away with the strong man act.
So i agree that Brexit might not have been ‘fully implemented’, but I guess my view is that it is that it is being more of a muddle, and not an explicit compromise, that is the issue. The breakdown of the ‘social contract’ in the west has been a rather technical concern for a long time in policy circles, but I think the impacts are only just coming out now.
As a ‘Brefugee’ on the continent, and an ex policy wonk before I left, the whole brexit thing was really quite interesting.
Of the Brits I know here, more voted leave than remain! I am lucky to have a couple of separate streams of friends and family, mostly staunch remainers (or of course european), but one group who i discuss politics with a lot are remainers (inc. me) and leavers, and a mix of nationalities including brits.
What continually shocks me is the absolute hatred and disregard of remainers for leavers. My leaver friends are highly intelligent people, with very clear reasons for their vote, mostly on a very poorly informed basis (i.e. the Sun), just like most remainers (no, reading the Guardian/NY Times/Süddeutsche etc. doesn’t mean you understand how the world works). The revealed arrogance of many remainers, who themselves have almost no concept of the EU, trade law, economics etc. or in fact even basic british institutions still shocks me. Nothing has really panned out as forecast, and all of those grounds were not the reason’s leavers voted the way they did anyway.
Until remainers learn some humility, very purposefully engage with the ‘new rights’ concerns, and learn to fight tooth and claw against lies being spread by the new right, I see very little hope. Smug fact checking is nothing more than patting oneself on the back. At the moment it feels more like a bunch of ostriches with their head in the sand. The rise of asia, the age of immigration, the age of the mega city, globalised trade and finance, aka the age of the polycrisis and climate change all offer huge opportunities, and huge risks, but the centre and left are mudlding through on a business as usual approach. The only positive I can take out of Trump winnign again, is that it might now start to become clear who existential the threat is.
Edmund Fawcetts history of Conservatism is a good quick recap of themes in conservative thought over the last 200 years, and clearly picks out the late 19th century streams of thought that are re-emerging.
*how existential
My commentary on the political landscape? I agree with Miss Terri Clark.
I Think The World Needs A Drink
https://youtu.be/OXE-vP15cug?si=WhSj9O8bcHokR6ne
Dr. L,
It is hard, indeed. My fear is really more for what will happen…to our planet. I am worried that with inept and corrupt people at the helm, the narrow slice of tolerable climate we exist within will dissolve. I do not believe all the people who voted for Trump are bad people. I believe many of them are stressed out people who made a poorly informed long-term decision. Like you say: It’s hard to make good decisions in a state of overarousal and stress.
I am, as I usually am, living in the gray area, instead of the black and white, right/left view. I am good at living in the gray area. I actually believe this is one reason I am chronic in limerence. I’m sensitive, thoughtful. Able to see beyond what is, into what might, or could be…to swim in the gray area….and to dream, of course.
The last time Trump was elected, I was upset, as well. Angry, yet not surprised. I decided that the real estate between my ears was not for sale, and not available to him or his loyalists. And this time, that thought has served me well. I believe that it is time to go within, to know…I am in this, but not of this. And I will not become this.
As I explore those ideas, I actually find it dovetails with this round of experience with limerence (LE #3). I am beginning to realize, it’s not that I need more hobbies, more friends, more social interaction, more anything. I don’t need more to feel secure. What I actually need — is to strip it all away, and face my SELF. I feel, at heart, this is why I am chronically limerent. I have not been alone, simply alone, with me. To the point where I do not understand the power of just…me.
The more I think about my limerence, the more I see: for many reasons — my self has never seemed enough. I have never believed I was secure, in my self. I distracted myself, I ran from myself, I allowed others to reflect my self, and I believed what they told me. I triangulated my idea of “me” based on their feedback…Now, I see…I need to go within, to my inner real estate…to understand that no matter what, I am strong enough to survive almost anything.
Instead of feeling demoralized, I feel determined. To go within, to a place none of our partisan factors can reach. A place where I am sovreign. It will be a good, good exercise. It will build much strength I need.
And that will help me in my aim to rein in my limerent predispositions, as well.
Well said CSC – I feel like that’s quite some self-discovery you documented right there!
thanks LaR. 🙂
I am doing everything I can, from within, to find a better path forward for myself…i am exhausted from my current LE and feeling very upset i let myself fall into it…i feel sad, and rejected. but, i must not give into those feelings. i have to find some way out, and if i can, try to prevent this in the future. simply shutting off my passion is not an option. but, building more inner strength is not mutually exclusive to being a passionate person. so…here goes…. :/
maybe it’ll be fun….
I got a bit of an update to something I think while seeming insignificant was a milestone for me. I have been kind of obsessing over some new musician (which you can probably tell by my other posts) Terri Clark.
I was playing Xbox last night and had my headphones on and her song “Better Things To Do” came on and I am singing along and LO thoughts tried to get in my head and I thought to myself while singing the chorus; “she’s his (the man she is seeing now) problem now, I’m done.” Let’s hope I am finally.
Better Things To Do — Terri Clark
https://youtu.be/h1ScBNkXaJk?si=DtHT0pjl0MeiuB7w
I’m usually a fairly level headed, rational person. My LE challenged all that. Limerence has taught me to better understand the irrational and politics is probably a close second to love and romance for having people lose their mind.
A few links inspired by recent comments and new arrivals:
– https://livingwithlimerence.com/blog-archive/ – All DrL’s blogs can be found here. Poke around and there’s likely a blog or two that address your question.
– https://livingwithlimerence.com/closure-is-an-illusion/ –
– https://livingwithlimerence.com/how-long-does-limerence-last/
– https://livingwithlimerence.com/if-i-only-knew/ – IMO, an underappreciated article. At the time, I thought it was important for me to know. After getting beaten over the head with the question, “What would you do with the knowledge if you had it?” eventually, I believed that I didn’t need to know.
Even better, later on, I didn’t want to know. Say hello to closure!
Re ‘if only I knew’ …
At first for me it was the relentless horror of NOT knowing. But then you start to think, for someone in my situation, that ALL roads of knowing lead to very likely greater horrors. No good outcome.
Not knowing is the lesser horror.
That’s easy enough to write out now, but it hasn’t half been a journey to get there.
Clarification: that is only meant to apply to me, but many limerents in a relationship might relate.
I think for everyone there is a risk-reward calculation to look at. Everyone’s will vary, but limerence will be doing its crafty bit to skew the mental equation towards disclosure.
WRT: “The one who got away.” (TOWGA)
Try re-framing that as, “The one I got away from.”
It’s really good for people with dodgy LOs but it works OK for most LOs.
In the Pantheon of Exes, no one holds a higher place than TOWGA. Some people visit the shrine more than others. You can live there if you want to.
LE,
Thanks for the brilliant reframing, which is so needed here! Gosh, words can be such double bladed tool!
No one is the Pantheon of my exes deserved TOWGA, the LE created both framing TOWGA and TOIAF in ET at the same time, which has caused an internal war in me… When in the first mind framing, I felt regret and sad… in the 2nd, proud, strong, and wise…. That’s the ultimate war between the body and mind.
Why is it so hard to unite body and mind side in side in harmony❓And who is to say which is more important ⁉️
All is impermanent, we all shall lay in dust one day sooner or later… why do I care so much as if the life would indefinitely go on?
Or we need to pretend it will go on indefinitely?
I can identify both TOWGA and TOIGAF – but they are most definitely two different people.
Maybe if one day I can ever reconcile both things about the same person (as I feel, L.E., that you might have), that would be a solution of sorts.
LA,
The closest I have to a TOWGA is a girl from high school. I think she really liked me but I suffered from a bad case of insecurity. I thought if she knew the real me, she wouldn’t like me. Once we got to the point where she’d given up one, we became very good friends for several years.
Any girl who wanted to know me had to be crazy and I didn’t want to date a crazy girl. Grouch Marx said that he wouldn’t want to join a club that would have him as a member.
Getting past that took 7 years and an epiphany.
@Limerent Emiritus
haaaa! Oh my gosh, I love that. “the one I got away from”
That is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant!
“The one that got away” is the reason why there was an “one I got away from”. Regret and rejection are the power behind why I tried to live through someone else what I couldn’t in my past. What a horrible position I put her in. She couldn’t be who she wasn’t; what I wanted her to be.
Adam, You’re so kind to always consider for her and blame yourself first…
I was as selfish as a typical limerent and as a kid with cptsd…
Well Snowphoenix she didn’t ask to be a part of that debacle that I threw her into. So yes the fault is mine. My NC and defence of her person in this mess is my apology to her. I suffer the consequences, not her.
Adam,
Very noble of you for think and say so! 👏
I got away from the nature’s pull…
As often as not, it seems that it’s no so much a matter of trying to save them.
We want them to save us.
And, the adage of “You can’t save someone who doesn’t want to be saved.” applies as much to us as it does to them.
LE,
As far as I can remember (my feelings/thoughts), in all my previous romantic relations, I semi-consciously wanted to be “saved”, but none of “LOs” could do the job.
It was my own IMAGINATION of an idealized, surrogate parent that 90-95% saved me. So now Inhindsight , I can’t splash only black ink on my only authentic LE canvas. While making a fool of myself, my imagination — the Phantom, was activated, enlivened and powered upmost by LE and unexpectedly heal the cptsd condition that several therapists were unable to do for over a decade.
An old cliche — ONLY one’s Self can SAVE oneself! Glimmer (not obsessive LE yet) is just a fuse/catalyst, although for instinctual drives.
To Mars from Arizona
Alberto Ríos
1952 –
Saturday mornings were science fiction—
That is, on that day anything was possible.
We didn’t have to go to the movies for that,
Though when we did, we were introduced to ourselves
More than anything. Ourselves in rockets,
Ourselves taking chances, ourselves speaking to the universe.
Outside of the movies, we were still in them—
Our bikes were our rockets, our submarines, our jets.
But mostly, and first, our bikes were our horses
In this childhood West, a loyal, red Western Flyer
Taking me everywhere, up and down, fast and slow.
Only later did I understand it was my own legs
That did it all. My own legs and my arms to steer,
My own small, mighty lungs to shout—
A shout that would later become a song.
When they weren’t horses, when my legs were tired,
When the shouts calmed down into just talking,
We bike-riders would sit, and find in that talking
The gold we had been looking for, though we didn’t know it.
The gold was made of plans for Saturdays still to come—
We each had different ideas, but we all had them,
Speaking them confidently as if we were lions,
Deep-voiced and sure even in that quietude.
What would happen next was far away,
But even as we rested, something in us knew
We would catch the future no matter how fast it ran.
******
About this Poem
“This is a simple testament to our childhood and adult imaginations both, looking at how time allows us to see the same thing in more than one way. I grew up on the border, literally, but it was never one thing. This poem helps me to understand that the border wasn’t simply about geography, but about the border between today and tomorrow; between what we were doing and what we were going to be doing; the certainty of that hopeful and creative and powerful sensibility—‘I’ was in harmony with the bravado of ‘I am.’”
—Alberto Ríos
******
Imagination is a rocket that can take us off from the gravity of our reality. Should we let the rocket freely float in the zero-gravity universe or still come back to the weighty earth? 🐦🔥
Venetian Siesta
Joseph Millar
I know I’m getting away with a crime
stretched out on the couch
and listening to rain
making a hole in the afternoon
through which I can drift slowly away
for sleep is sometimes
just as delicious
as white polenta and grilled angle fish.
So I give up my hands,
my tears and my face,
the smells of tar,
damp rope and mud,
the late slanted light of November
rippling below on the gondola wood
and then I count backwards from 27
trying to pretend I’m Wallace Stevens
he of the freakish intellect
and the taste of a ruthless
wandering gourmet
who rummages in the mystical kitchen
in search of oranges and café espresso
or a blown glass peacock
or a Byzantine horse
cast in some delicate metal.
He speaks of the world,
how it’s changed by art
and bread you can’t eat
powdered with light
where someone is toasting
their mother’s health
and someone is writing a letter to death
which makes things beautiful
in its way
and also makes everyone the same
as laughter does
or the late autumn rain.
****
Today, it finally rained a bit after a long drought here; I did not change my pajama all day. Besides beating a couple of deadlines, I seriously thought about “writing a letter to [🐦🔥’s ashes] which makes things beautiful
in its way”….
The irony is that contemplating to extinguish such ❤️🔥 actually kindled the amber more… 😳
My “side chick” (neighborhood cat) has shown up last night and today and jumped up in my lap. Our cat came home from prowling last night while she was in my lap and I had to scream for my wife to let her in before I had a literal cat fight in my lap. 🙂 Ill never learn with women.
Tonight on “Untold Stories of the ER:”
A man is brought by his wife in with a severe groin injury incurred when a “cat fight” erupted in his lap. ER staff are surprised to learn the term “cat fight” was literal and the wounds were made by real cats.
I wake up this morning to check on something, open the front door to a small gray & white cat I’ve never seen before sitting in the walkway to the front porch. As soon as I tried to open the screen door it ran off. I think I’ve found why the food dish outside is empty sometimes even when my side chick isn’t around.
Also I had my wife read your above posted and she literally laughed out loud. “Wouldn’t be the strangest thing I’ve taken you to the ER for.”
Back when we were dating, LO #2 got a cat and named her Emily. Emily was a real sweetie. We got along really well. LO #2 was more of a dog person so she didn’t really know cats very well.
One day, I rolled up a wad of tape and tossed it on the floor. Emily started batting it around. Sometimes, it would stick to her paws and she’d dance around trying to knock it off. She was having fun.
LO #2 got the bright idea of hanging a clothes pin on Emily’s fur. No skin, just fur. Emily freaked out because she couldn’t get the clothes pin off. I caught Emily and took the clothes pin off. I gave LO #2 the WTF? look and she came back with the My Bad look.
I was sitting in the corner holding Emily trying to calm her down. LO #2 came over to apologize. Emily’s legs started churning like the Roadrunner on my arm. By the time I got her off, I was bleeding from some pretty deep scratches. LO #2, the nurse, bandaged my wrist.
When I took off the bandage, I began to notice people looking at me and my wrist. They thought it was a suicide attempt. It kind of did.
My boss called me in, asked what happened, and if I was ok. I told him about Emily. He said Emily was a pretty mean cat. I told him the cat was fine, it was my girlfriend that was clueless.
Snow,
Popping over here to coffeehouse as the Entanglements post is now closed (it must have been all that unruly drinking and singing about corn in the saloon).
“I’m still chewing Schreiber’s article with a heavy heart.”
I am not sure of the article you mean. L.E. posts Schreiber links regularly. I know there was one in an exchange involving me and you a couple of weeks ago. What is the gist of it that leaves the heart heavy?
Good for you for just letting your mind do its thing over the weekend and not trying to fight it. Exactly the suggestion you would give to me. I know it can be painful though.
I had a look back at my long draft. I feel like maybe I broke some of it up and put it in smaller posts, as some of it was about my extended familial situation etc which we discussed already.
The bit related to T, F etc is below as a response to something you posted. I may be repeating myself and please bear in mind I wrote these bits before your updates near the end of last week. I understand some of the nuances about T for you, from what you said. I also wonder whether if you can make peace with your T a bit, think that it has some useful function and try and work out what that is, maybe you could feel overall calmer. This feels much the same as if the other way round, you urging me (a natural T) to keep embracing and making room for my F’s insight too. I am not saying accept everything T says uncritically – but the brain’s thinking capacity must have some use. You formulated it yesterday as ‘Stoic side of T’ – maybe this is a helpful formulation for you of a part of T you can appreciate?
Anyway this is the previously drafted bit:
“T side can solve a lot of logical matters, but our human emotions are not logical a lot of times. S, F, P’s voices should be listened to carefully and intuitively, which come from our Unconscious — curbing/balanceing our T mind.”
Yes, agree. I see what you mean that T can make the mind ‘robotic’ and inhibit F (I recognise it in me at times, but I am not strongly towards T, nearer the middle on the tests). It is interesting that you equate T with Narcissus for yourself. Can you speak more kindly of your T side and what it adds to your life? I think it’s (T in general, the collective T) not *all* bad. Perhaps as you say, your COO background has quite a big shaping effect in how you regard the T/F balance. I understand that as much as I am able without the lived experience.
“Still, I like a very flexible mind that is open and ready to all possibilities.”
Now we’re talking!!
LaR,
“Popping over here to coffeehouse as the Entanglements post is now closed (it must have been all that unruly drinking and singing about corn in the saloon).”
If that blog/house is not closed, it might have been turned to “Breech-Beach Entanglement”, which is inaccurate of what limerents are truly after — “Limerence on the Beach” — the name of a new drink (Vodka based accompanied by a variety of international exotic fruit juice), for you a new LE barmen to invent… I need it for Thanksgiving 🍹
“I am not sure of the article you mean. L.E. posts Schreiber links regularly. I know there was one in an exchange involving me and you a couple of weeks ago. “
I just put up the link in my previous post today. Which one are you referring?
“What is the gist of it that leaves the heart heavy?”
Schreiber’s article made me recall a lot of details of what happened in my sad childhood and later failed relationships, which still saddens me beyond words nowadays. His description and analysis were so accurate on the targets as if they were written based on my personal case… As said before, I don’t remember logistic details but can recall my fragmented feelings and sensations scarily well (otherwise, there would be no cptsd). If it was something horrible, then my brain/psyche would push them out immediately…. So I still don’t have any memory of some horrible events, but the impact was/is there.
“Good for you for just letting your mind do its thing over the weekend and not trying to fight it. Exactly the suggestion you would give to me. I know it can be painful though.”
I feel tremendous relief when I was able to truly let my mind wander its own direction without judging while expecting any feelings could turn up. When I did not, trying to affirm any ideation/thought/feeling, nightmares appeared and psychosomatic reactions came with concrete evidence.
“I also wonder whether if you can make peace with your T a bit, think that it has some useful function and try and work out what that is, maybe you could feel overall calmer.”
My T was trained by my Narc Mom and COO ideology, quite different from your kind; it almost removes all humanistic and F elements. It made me so unappreciative human/love/LE affections in my previous friendship and relationship and subsequently lost important ones. This T made myself feeling like a robot, in comparison even with LE ghosts here.
“I am not saying accept everything T says uncritically – but the brain’s thinking capacity must have some use. “
Again, in my case, thinking capacity has inhabited F capacity gravely in the past. Remember I said my most favored motherly therapist (had to relocate) could not get me describe my feeling? Besides nonstop thoughts/wills, I did not know what feelings were supposed to BE back then.
“You formulated it yesterday as ‘Stoic side of T’ – maybe this is a helpful formulation for you of a part of T you can appreciate?”
Yes, I’ll keep Stoic side of T, which means to know and be aware constantly what IS within one’s control and what is Not, so as to not worry about “futile” matters, e.g. what ET might be thinking nowadays, forgetting or remembering me at all? Or what’s realistic concerns and what is fanciful (or paranoid) imagination (always double bladed) that serves as dopamine hit (or nightmare trigger)? How much could/should I feed myself the former each day?
“It is interesting that you equate T with Narcissus for yourself. Can you speak more kindly of your T side and what it adds to your life?”
The T equating with Narcissus in one means:
1. Automatically wanting in control all the time, e.g. other people related/interacted with, or matters of small or big, concrete or abstract, tangible or intangible;
2. Holding tight one’s pride and hating admitting errors made and failures; self censuring, self-berating and self-shaming one’s mistakes and vulnerabilities,
3. Pursuing to be perfect in all things one does in macro or micro scopes at daily basis, which is annoying to others, wasting of one’s own time and energy, and causing unstoppable anxiety no matter when or where. (I see it in Mom and my old self)
“Perhaps as you say, your COO background has quite a big shaping effect in how you regard the T/F balance. I understand that as much as I am able without the lived experience.”
Yes. I want to KILL all the inhuman T that was pushed or ingrained into my psyche since birth; which excluded almost all the F in the West. Knowing about COO intellectually is one matter, living through and “surviving” it (as a normal human being by Western standards) is a totally different ballgame. Imagine zero romanticism in your life? Orwell’s “1984” is not enough to capture what the modernized Big Brother is doing over there — the mental prisons are built in its Great Fire Wall nowadays.
“Still, I like a very flexible mind that is open and ready to all possibilities.”
Now we’re talking!!”
Since 10, I have been partially “corrupted” in mind (unable in body) by the Western classical literature, so had a much easier time to build up my own “no man’s land” ever since I “escaped” from that mental prison. Many of my COO fellowmen are still living in that invisible T “prison” although their bodies are blindly wandering in the West now. They could never glimmer for me even if they look godlike…
In this LwL town, I’m learning more about insightful western humanities… so I could see my old self more clearly, by comparison… Sitting in an isolated room, one would not have an identity. One learns about one’s selves and even evolve through relational dynamics, which makes LE, especially failed one, an irreplaceable chance to discover, renew, and reinvent Thy Self — much, much larger gains than obtaining a LO.
Snow,
There’s another popular cocktail (here, anyway) called a ‘Slow Comfortable Screw’ (slow = sloe gin, comfortable = Southern Comfort, screw = screwdriver – vodka and orange juice). See also – ‘Slow comfortable screw against a wall’ with added Galliano float. It would knock me out. Anyway your creativity made me think of what the ‘limerent variant’ would be. I came up with ‘Long uncomfortable blue’ … but we might need to switch up some colours or ingredients.
Do you get extra time off for good behaviour around Thanksgiving? Hope you have something fun planned.
I know that not me nor any Westerner can even imagine the COO upbringing. We can listen and learn if wanted, but we can never know. If my intuitions are right about your where your COO is, in real life I encounter quite a lot of people from there, grappling hard with their relationship with the Western mindset. Some want to integrate into it (but it often takes a long time to know how), others seem to outright reject it. I know the kind you mean who live in the West but with no exposure to the Western literature, arts, tv etc. I am not saying it is wrong – to each their own – but it must be challenging to live life like that. I know you may not want to give exact details but roughly how many years or what proportion of your life have you lived in the West?
I think we just accept that the T vs F thing is always going to be so different between a Westerner and an Easterner just because of nature and nurture. I come quite in the middle between T and F on the tests. When I am dealing with myself more T, when dealing with others more F. I like having both within me. I can cycle between the two. I do get your point that T can turn us (including me) robotic if we don’t watch and counterbalance it. And I get that our very different backgrounds mean your relationship with your T and F will differ from mine. We may have completely different terms of reference / worldviews about it that make it impossible to ever quite understand how the other feels.
And that’s cool. All we can do is our best. I am really glad that you find LwL and others’ stories a vehicle for learning and self-growth. I do too. I can always get a nugget of useful information from the posts on here. It’s so much more interesting and real than social media!
I hope no more tigers for you to contend with today.
LA,
I love that drink!
In the 80s, I really liked Singapore Slings. I ordered a Singapore Sling and the bartender asked if I wanted to try a SCS instead.
After the second one, I jokingly asked her to marry me.
Hi LaR,
I also popped over the the coffeehouse as you raised interesting questions on the entanglements thread (which is now closed).
“Bewitched,
That’s very encouraging that you felt like that. Did he also seem calm and less frenetic in the interaction?”
Our most recent interaction was virtual – email. He emailed about a work query, with 4 or 5 other people copied. In his reply he included a screenshot of is screen which happened to include a picture his young child. So I replied about work and the child (difficult to ignore a cute child, I felt that I was being polite, really). He took it offline between the two of us and told me some cute updates. I am not sure if he does this with other people – he’s not a communicative person, so I guess not. But then, I am a woman, so maybe I get different treatment when it comes to men my age and their kids. I do love kids….
What I mused on was whether or not this interaction happening is in any way connected to the story that I told you before about this particular child and their genesis (as you see I’m covering my tracks here, somewhat)?
This did not cause me to muse too much, or dwell overly on it, although I did give it a little bit of thought. In the past it would have set me off in a tornado of rumination. This time, I was just happy that we were able to have a ‘normal’ conversation about something personal without it becoming horrendously complicated by inhibition and debilitating shyness (on both sides but certainly more on his side. – Although always with the proviso that he is not the best communicator at the best of times, so that could be an alternative explanation for a lot of what happens). The thing is, the latter reinforces that he is not the guy for me. It also makes me feel happy that I can share his enjoyment of his child with him, admire his little kid and make him feel good. I like making other people feel good and I really like LO a lot, always will, I think. I am interested in our ‘take’ on this LaR?
RE:
“Did you ever do conscious deprogramming work or did he ‘deprogramme himself’ in effect, in the end?”
I never did the course because I didn’t want to devalue him. And even if I ended up that he wasnt for me (because of areas where he is sub-par compared with my SO), that was no shade on him. He’s lovely. If there was a nuclear holocaust and all other humans got wiped out, or even if only my favourite human, that is my SO, did – I’d happily shack up with him :))
RE:
“In the autumn I was saying I thought I’d had 3 or 4 months solid progress. I still do, but reflecting back on it, only on certain aspects.”
3 or 4 months is not very long, LaR. If I had to guess, I would say that your sub-conscious (F) will eventually catch up with your executive (T). Your fog hasn’t cleared enough yet, but it will.
„ If there was a nuclear holocaust and all other humans got wiped out, or even if only my favourite human, that is my SO, did – I’d happily shack up with him :))“
Ah, really? I don’t think I would with my LO, or would I? (I mean, if all others were word out, then of course 😉 but not if there would still be the whole range of humanity for choice)
With all my LOs, time showed me their incompatibilities with me, as it would with every person. I think I would prefer to start completely new with somebody. Wouldn’t have said that while still a bit limerent, though. Maybe this contact about his kid softened you a tad? Or would you say you are still completely out of limerence, and it’s just a fact that you would choose him?
(I don’t want to prod you! I’m just curious about comparison to my own mindset..)
*all others were wiped out
Bewitched,
TLDR: Where you’ve got to does sound like outstanding progress on balance.
“3 or 4 months is not very long, LaR. If I had to guess, I would say that your sub-conscious (F) will eventually catch up with your executive (T). Your fog hasn’t cleared enough yet, but it will.”
I think and hope you are right about all that. I don’t want to downplay the progress I’ve already made, but also want to acknowledge the tricky (and probably longer) road that lies ahead to get fully beyond this. You are reassuring with this quite simple take on it – that’s helpful to hear. I do have to find ways to operate with her orbiting around me more days than not, and to still make progress overall, even with that (can’t change it). It is a journey – I know you know this. Thanks for sticking with me rambling about it as the daily fluctuations can leave quite a lot that I benefit from just rambling out on here! Everything has been pretty good between us for a long while now and I feel less up and down.
“If there was a nuclear holocaust and all other humans got wiped out, or even if only my favourite human, that is my SO, did – I’d happily shack up with him :))”
Sorry Mila, but I am with Bewitched on this one (assuming she would be amendable, obviously)! 2-1 in favour of our LOs!! I wish it weren’t so, but there you are, it is.
If you can feel like this positive about him but no longer have the limerence, that is some going! This is why I can’t do the devaluation work – it would be false and counter-productive unless I get to a “I can’t take any more” moment, which has not arrived as yet – and I don’t anticipate it happening unless LO has a personality transplant. Even if and when I am no longer limerent, I believe I will still see her positively as someone who has been all I can want in a friend for a long time. Your story gives me hope.
“I am interested in your ‘take’ on this LaR?”
The stuff about the genesis of this child that you told me before is utterly fascinating. It is one of the biggest LwL revelations I have seen. If your feelings boil down to ‘I like making other people feel good and I really like LO a lot, always will’, and not being able to ignore cute kids, then that all sounds absolutely great. I think you need to be honest with yourself about whether there is anything else (you know what I mean) that ‘binds’ you differently with him and this kid. If the honest answer is ‘no there isn’t’, then I would trust yourself and believe in it. You may not need to over-think this one, if your ‘chi’ about it all feels good. I’m not sure if I have understood your question 100%, so if you want my ‘take’ on any other bit, then please do ask.
Ah, limerence 😅
„Sorry Mila, but I am with Bewitched on this one“
Well, you are still limerent, aren’t you?
I mean, there was a time where I would have said that about my LO, and like you I was sure that this hadn’t anything to do with limerence.
But that was when I was limerent🤷🏻♀️I‘m in a different zone now.
And you know what – that’s good to hear too! Yeah the limerent-tinted glass are still on here. I am interested that Bewitched can have the combo of NLL (no longer limerent) but also such positive feelings about him and still willing to ‘shack up’.
I will continue to say I still have high hopes for your friendship with xLO3, but only if you can make it work in terms you feel happy about.
It’s chicken and egg too though isn’t it Mila? (down on my farm anyway)
You don’t get ‘not limerent’ until you find stuff to put you off them, and it is hard to find stuff to put you off them if you are limerent for a good egg.
I need to hone my 🔍 skills.
I have been limerent a few times but have successfully moved other LOs and crushes on much more quickly and efficiently, whilst I have been with SOs (the current one and a previous). This LO just gives me so little to go on though! It’s a conundrum.
Limerence per se is a conundrum!
Will see LO tomorrow- I’m actually quite curious how I will react. I was invited to go out with him and others tomorrow evening, but have as good as declined already (as he hasn’t asked me anyway himself -might do that tomorrow, though- and I really don’t want to at the moment. I‘ll see enough of him the whole week, and I have to get up early.) I wonder if I will suddenly want to go tomorrow after having been exposed to him.
Maybe new strategy- to detach and watch oneself like a social experiment?
Good resolve – or if it didn’t take resolve, then good progress!
Hope it goes OK this week and doesn’t cause too much if any setback – keep us posted.
LaR, are you trying to lure me out to the farm? 😉
That question about who you would “shack up with”, if at least all relevant SOs suddenly vanished, is a good one. I already tried a variation of this on my summer holiday, and didn’t choose either of my xLOs/TO to join me there. And depends on the definition of “shack up”, but if it’s anything like a desert island type (forever!) set-up, I think I would pass once again. My xLOs are starting to look kind of arrogant from where I’m standing. Though I might be convinced to entertain the idea of either of them for a few weeks if they really put in the effort. 😉 TO, same, except he’s done the work already (and is not arrogant). But sadly, I don’t think I would take him on for a longer time. I don’t know who I would choose, maybe one of my crushes of late, i.e. someone new and shiny like Mila?! 😉 But just the idea of such a close relationship exhausts me at the moment…
I’ve mentioned before that I’ve never really fantasized about a life together with my xLOs, so this might explain my reluctance. Or else I’m just in a mood today!
Hi Mila,
I would probably have the same reaction on the evening thing.
I hope it goes well tomorrow and rest of the week, I’m confident you stay on this good track despite potential ‘revival’ of the old working dynamic with LO.
Maybe to concentrate on all the skills and virtues YOU bring to your workplace. So other colleagues including visiting passer-by ( aka LO ) can be in awe of the way you are at work, and not vice versa.
Best wishes
And I didn’t mean I would choose Mila (though I’m sure I could do a lot worse! 😜), but that I might choose like her and pick someone new and shiny!
Trifles!
Wow am I glad to see your face! 🤩 I thought for a while that I’d lost you wandering about in the cornfields late last night, after I failed to heed your well-meant advice while doing my barman turn. That’ll learn me.
About your point – I think, from a few (ahem) husks (I am harvesting Snow’s poem, I don’t want any credit) of things you’ve fed us here on LwL at different times, that either you’re inclining towards not seeing the reward to you of permanent monogamy with one person, or perhaps you just haven’t met the person yet who could persuade you otherwise. And just for the record, I don’t see anything wrong with that. I can’t do, really, having admitted all I have on LwL, despite never having acted on it. Feel free to put me back in my box if I have that point wrong.
Of course, as you hinted, there is ‘shacking up’ and “shacking up” … my previous LO, in our disclose-and-exit conversation, after confirming I wasn’t in cloud cuckoo land about it being mutual, then said “but we don’t even know if we’d be compatible long term”. I said to her that nobody really does when they start out, but that it can be good fun finding out. I guess it depends what you are looking for in an LTR. I don’t think it is ever possible to keep the fireworks of the first year or two (not in the same form), but there is another different kind of love that can emerge from it. Just depends what people are after.
Anyway, excuse me for now, as I better go put the combine harvester away in the shed and put the snow blanket over it 😀
Oh … Snow, if you’re reading … I have realised what I just said to Trifles about the ‘snow blanket’ could wrongly seem to have double meaning, but I absolutely promise it doesn’t and wasn’t meant to! I was just thinking of my heavy duty farm machinery, nothing more. 🙈
📣 🔊 LaR? 📢 … 🛌 💤
After shacking up with his four European LE ladies all day long and finally losing himself on a haystack cozily laid by his SO and dreamily orbited by his LO, he expects the floating Snow to cover up his heavy-duty ploughing? 😏 Is there fairness/justice in LwL town?
It is said that an average “farmer” can’t pass 6 seconds without thinking about his “farm machinery”, LaR has definitely broken that record — replaced “thinking about” with “using”….
LaR, “snow” is patented name in LwL town, if you use it not carefully, I’ll pull 🪢 you to its juristic division… 💀
Mila,
I’m sending a good-luck wish into your dream/Unconscious, so tomorrow you’ll face the unpredictable with mighty sense of ease and peace…
Hi Mila. I wish you the best for your upcoming LO interactions. I hope they go really well for you.
Try to stay in the present, and not bother too much about how things with LO will pan out in the future. Take it one day at a time.
Let us know how it goes. We are always here to listen.
Cheers!
LaR, Thanks for the welcome! I was only looking out for you yesterday – I doubted that you would have had the ingredients for the drink available in the rural saloon!
You have a fairly good grasp of what I’ve been talking about, but actually I’m not really sure what I want. My mind has been all over the place lately. I think (I at least sound like) I’m just tired of relationships at the moment.*
I don’t think it’s about not having met the right person, I’ve had LTRs with wonderful people and I wouldn’t say it’s their fault that I doubt the possibility of very ‘L’ LTRs.
“…inclining towards not seeing the reward to you of permanent monogamy with one person.” I can see the reward, especially as one grows older. Just not convinced it’s completely doable. I think serial monogamy has been the most prevalent relationship form in human history. But polyamorists have good arguments for, and cultural examples of, polyamory. I’ve recently read a couple (semi-auto)fictional books about the topic so it’s circled around in my mind, on a theoretical level. Who knows where our culture is evolving…
*) Maybe it’s a quiet time at the farm, harvesters being put away, resting and waiting/preparing for spring again? (You just better not go there with any spring chicken analogies..!) I think LEs keep my mind off other changes I could/should make in my life. I guess I’d do anything to avoid purposeful living! 🙄
And ah, farmers and their equipment! 6 seconds, who knew, eh?
Btw, good luck to whoever reads these messages a few years from now. Maybe we should move this over to a farming forum?! 🤔
“That question about who you would “shack up with”, if at least all relevant SOs suddenly vanished, is a good one.”
Trifles
If you asked Momma, of the last few weeks she would say “Terri Clark!” She has forbidden me to listen to her music other than on my headphones because I get so obsessive. 🙂 I once played “Dirty Girl” on loop on youtube on my headphones while playing XBox for like 2 hours. If she is taking my inebriated self somewhere “No Terri Clark!”. And my wife actually knew her music back when she first came out.
Miss Clark has a song called “You’re Easy On The Eyes”. I was listening to it one morning and singing it with our cat sleeping right next to me. I was singing the chorus “I now realize that you were easy on the eyes, hard on the heart” and I turn to the cat and say “Yeah she really was.” My wife told me later that day she was awake at the time and heard it. She sighed and said “every time you make progress you take two steps back.”
Some days later, thinking on what she said, I can understand her frustration. But at the same time I feel like that realization and the verbal utterance of it, really puts LO in perspective. I didn’t really feel anything at the moment I said it. It was a mere statement of fact. Onward and upward I am hoping for.
Keep in mind that in any zombie apocalypse that 99% of the people will end up as zombies. Odds are you’ll be one of them. Who you shack up with takes on a whole new dimension.
Let’s say you have room for one person in your bunker. A really cute lawyer and a welder with his gear show up. Who do you let in? You don’t have any electricity or much paper so those Cease and Desist letters the lawyer could draft are pretty much out.
However, with my luck, considering all the meds I’m on, the zombies might choose to eschew me (pun intended) and I’d be stuck until the meds ran out. What an unintended consequence that would be.
Trifles,
Yeah thinking about it, maybe ‘Farmers Anonymous’ would be more appropriate for all this? Let’s look into that 🚜
I like to hope that when our conversations are discovered as ‘messages in a bottle’ by the LwLers of years to come (those lucky people!), that it will give them hope that not all conversations about limerence have to be too dark, but that kind reality checks are also good.
I must admit, I too find it challenging to engage with the “purposeful living” bits of the blogs. I know DrL and others are right about it, and I have done some very purposeful things (within what I can) to help myself since being here. But purposeful decisions can pull in directly opposite directions from where limerence wants to pull us, so it’s a toughie. And I also get your wider point that sometimes it is easier to delay the purposeful decisions about other bits of life. There could be a reason somewhere for that. But I also think letting the land lie for a spell can be a very good idea too.
(It makes me laugh how everyone is purposeful for about 2 weeks of the year starting 1st Jan. Suddenly the early train and the gym are full and then go back to normal a fortnight later!)
Your points about alternative relationship structures are interesting. I think it gets misrepresented on TV (especially reality TV), as what always seems to happen is different rules for different people. Eg an open relationship seems depicted as more ‘open’ for one partner than another. I do come at this from a place of near ignorance though – I am sure if I knew people IRL who had actually made poly setups work, there would be a lot to be learned.
It also got me thinking as to how and why monogamy is prescribed as the norm. People with a religious leaning will probably understand it most. I guess the best I can come up with (and it may sound outdated and overgeneral) is that, evolution wise, mono relationships tend to provide the best stability to children. If poly became more normalised, that would change. Not trying to make any moral judgement here. Would be interested to know the gist of what those books you read said about it.
Anyway – that was deep – so I am thinking about how to furnish the saloon for the holidays, and maybe laying on an LwL fancy dress party there. Whaddaya reckon? Because what could ever possibly go wrong at an event like that, right? (Talk about putting the foxes in charge of the henhouse 🦊🐔)
Adam, to respond to your comment that got lost amid the zombie attack…
Do you sometimes feel like you are just “going through the motions” of your LE, like being stuck in a loop (not unlike with Terry Clark songs!)? That it’s sometimes just a familiar, even cozy habit that won’t die? Your comment made it sound a little like that, but you can correct me if I’m wrong!
LaR,
“It makes me laugh how everyone is purposeful for about 2 weeks of the year starting 1st Jan. Suddenly the early train and the gym are full and then go back to normal a fortnight later!)”
Now, I’ve always been good at those, small (to me) decisions. But I don’t get how people can’t stick to those, but then they can go out and find a new job, start and finish a new degree, etc..?! I’m jealous!
“I am thinking about how to furnish the saloon for the holidays, and maybe laying on an LwL fancy dress party there.”
Umm… Not sure about that! Count me out of taking drink orders in any case. 😆
Trifles,
If you don’t want to take orders, I’ll serve. So I will get to send/fuse some Eastern voodoo Qi into the “Limerence Swing” set of three glasses…which would soothe some tearful customers. 😜
Trifles
I think you might be on to something. It’s almost at a subconscious level. I thought something and then I said it out loud. The song reminded me of her just the same as if I was listening to “Cats In The Cradle” I would instantly think of our oldest son, who is almost to the last verse in that song in his life. “He’d grown up just like me, my boy was just like me.”
The takeaway I am getting from this incident, for my wife and my sake, perhaps we need to talk about what is an idle/innocent memory and what is rumination. Because this incident seems more ruminating than a memory as it was a comment on how limerence made me feel about her, not some event that actually happened in the time I knew her.
Right – an eastern-western voodoo fusion for ‘Limerence on the Beach’ it is then, Snow! You’re hired!
Adam, that sounds like an important realization. 👍
Hi LaR & Mila,
“TLDR: Where you’ve got to does sound like outstanding progress on balance”
I hope that I am not trippin’. I might be, as I see him seldom and that’s always a bigger test than virtual, which is all I have to go on at the moment.
“Wouldn’t have said that while still a bit limerent, though. Maybe this contact about his kid softened you a tad?” Could be, Mila. What was different this time was much less rumination and thought about it when he reached out one on one and what he said to me in messages. I didn’t overthink that like I might have done in the past. Normally, I am the Queen of overthinking when it comes to him.
“I am interested that Bewitched can have the combo of NLL (no longer limerent) but also such positive feelings about him and still willing to ‘shack up’.”
I am curious about this too. One thing to note is that we don’t meet f2f very often, which is always a totally different experience. In our virtual interactions, he has kept communication to an absolute minimum (as have I, in fairness). 90% of the time, it only happens with others included too. It was nice this time to have him reach out individually to me, quite unusual too, apart from one or two other exceptional times, like when I was bereaved (Kid made an appearance then too 🤔).
I think that maybe I am just still a little bit attracted, which is why I mention ‘shacking up’ (such great visuals from this phrase)). But I don’t think that I am any longer (very) limerent. Which poses the question: can one be ‘slightly limerent’ or is it all or nothing. And also, can someone go back to being attracted in a normal way after being limerent for the same person?
LaR – about what I was saying regarding the fog eventually lifting, I honestly never thought it would for me. I thought that I was one of those people with longer than normal tenacity for my love-object – I began to think that I was a little bit nutty and that I would never ever et him out of the back of my mind – I kept thinking this even after I had got him out of the fore ground of my mind. But it did eventually change, almost unnoticed too. I think time may have done its thing, along with a lot of deliberate thinking ‘No’ and variations of that, for the longest while he kept sneaking in there when I wasn’t concentrating hard enough on keeping him out, like my default setting. However, I have some advantages, my LO is distant geographically and not in daily contact, certainly not f2f. Still, I think you can be hopeful as over-familiarity might do the trick, eventually.
Mila – I think that you are probably more out of it than I am, tbh. Your description of this upcoming session seems like something you are ever-so-slightly jaded about? It is probably good to have low/neutral expectations since they are almost always exceeded in every facet of life and it can make for a pleasant surprise, which is always better than a nasty surprise (?). I do wish you very well – and that you get from it exactly as you wish for yourself (except maybe not the primitive urge to drag him off to a cave somewhere 🙈).
Bewitched,
“Still, I think you can be hopeful as over-familiarity might do the trick, eventually.”
Oddly enough, I got fed a few ‘crumbs’ that when I put this wrapper of yours on them in my head, meant I could just about think “yeah, that’s both predictable and a bit annoying”
This is most likely the sort of work I really need to put in – not to devalue her but just to see the more holistic view needed to get my F chasing after my T.
Hello LaR,
I hope that you are having a good day and not a bad one.
“I could just about think “yeah, that’s both predictable and a bit annoying””
Funnily enough, that was what it was like for me after I reached the top of the limerence hill and started down the other side. I was just a little bit less subjective than before when I was in LO’s complete thrall, or, I should say, when I was in thrall to my own fantasy with regard to him. Before that point, I had been ignoring the obvious incompatibilities because ignoring them fitted better to my fantasy life – one that I had no intention of actually following through on (even at the height of my limerence). Set-backs still arose but, yes, noticing such moments and filing them away, is helpful I think. One thing to beware about is if these moments are simply defensive (reaction to a perceived slight), although I do not think it sounds as though that is the sort of dynamic you have going, so maybe no issues there.
Thanks for your thoughts Bewitched.
No, not a slight, but interesting you thought of it. It is the sort of thing that one year back would have sent my brain hurtling off uncontrollably in that unhelpful direction. But it really isn’t – it is just ‘humans humaning’ and that’s all. This is where it links to your familarity point – with familiarity you come to see patterns and assemble evidence and expectations, which then tend to play out predictably and help build more of the jigsaw. There is then a chance to see them more objectively rather than just through the limerence glasses. I will take all that as a win! An extra item for the toolkit and the first one I have acquired for a while.
Hi LE,
As they say in France, Chapeau! for this which is one of your best, I believe, to date:-
“the zombies might choose to eschew me (pun intended)”
Great visuals. Haha.
I think I would be seriously considering shacking up with the hairy welder in your example. Not the lawyer.
How did this welder suddenly get hairy?
Overactive imagination?
😀
Hairy? I just shacked up over night with a cheeky, smiley pony 🐴 on my bed! 😳
Snow, are you sure it wasn’t indeed a very hairy welder with his gear?(whatever LE meant by „gear“)
Mila, Nope, it’s a shinny faced — no facial hair at all, smiley, pony(or horse) rolling off my bed… I kept patting his head with brownish hair… 🐴
Mila,
By gear, I meant welding equipment, helmet, tanks, torches welding “rods” [run with that as you will], etc.
This thread is getting worse and worse…. 😉
LE,
I do know actually. It was my attempt to make this thread worse and worse, as Serial limerebt aptly noticed.
Singapore Slings are my favorites!
And LE,
a hairy welder with a welding rod, now we are talking! I wonder why the lawyer doesn’t inspire any overactive imagination…
Mila,
Think about the lawyer’s “briefs” and “motions.”
That help any?
And, lest I be considered sexist, I didn’t identify the genders of the lawyer or the welder.
L.E., derailing threads since 2017!
„ Think about the lawyer’s “briefs” and “motions.”
😂😂😂😂
It does help, thank you!!
A female hairy welder with a rod? Not sure about that, but interesting imagery.
😂😂😂😂
LE, didn’t know your LE sling!
Mila,
I have a response to your latest hairy female welder post but it might get me tossed off LwL.
You are bullet-proof here L.E., I’m sure. Please tell us!
LA,
Fine.
Search for the origin of the band name Steely Dan.
Take it from there.
“Steely Dan” I knew that one.
Happy Thanksgiving to all. Hope is drama free (we’ve all seen the movies!).
Bewitched,
Does having dramas in dream 🌙 count as “drama free” in life?
Thank you for the holiday wishes, and thanks to those unimaginable dreams, which help release reality stresses but one day might kill me in a nightmare 💭
It’s funny, when I started to google „origin of band name“, the first suggestion was „Steely Dan“. It’s either a thing of universal interest or there are much more limerents reading these threads than we thought😆
Dear Snow,
I hope that Thanksgiving is especially nice for you this year. Its been really interesting participating in your journey in the past year. I hope that holidays and time off do not cause melancholy, but instead bring peace. I read that the body a d brain detoxifies at night, which helps explain bad dreams and negative thoughts / neuroses in the dead of night, that magically vanish the next day (for me, at least). You might also be a light sleeper (remember dreams more?). I hope you have some sweet dreams in your future X 💤💌💫💤
Bewitched,
I do feel more at peace (just a tiny bit melancholy) compared to last Thanksgiving. Nowadays, I really do NOT expect anything from my LE or life in general, but trying to appreciate whatever I have in my plate nowadays.
With a full week off, I still feel like not enough time for me: need to produce final exams, help students’ review, see friends, cook for Mom and cousin tomorrow, carry on a couple of tutoring (Fri&Sat), proctor a full-day regional exam on Sunday, and a fantasy series on Netflix to binge (have not done so for more than a year) at night.
And keep you ghosts bunch as my mental and spiritual chatting buddies ( as well sharpening my ESL skills and expanding my Western culture database). Now, I’ll help LaR run a LwL salon… where is my spare time?
“I read that the body a d brain detoxifies at night, which helps explain bad dreams and negative thoughts / neuroses in the dead of night, that magically vanish the next day (for me, at least).”
I heard that theory, too. Because during our waking hours, our conscious mind forbids or fends off those “negative thoughts” and push them into the Unconscious, which then release them during our sleep. Otherwise, our mind could “explode”. I also read that those who are unable to have REM sleep (in which dreaming is involved) can’t rest their brain well (not remembering dreams is normal), and even become psychotic in extreme cases. The researches and experiments have been done, but I can’t remember from which resources I’ve heard about this.
“You might also be a light sleeper (remember dreams more?)”
It’s said that those who dream a lot but also remember them have more sharpened, alert sensory system, which corresponds with my test with one of my shrinks — I still remember nightmares since 10 years old; they’re stuck in my memories for good 😌
Based on my smart watch, I have longer REM and deeper sleep ever since I came back from COO, which I suspect something unsettled previously got settled in my system — I became my own parent, at last! 💃 (Still has a bit of cptsd left — those 3 peaceful, “well-fed”🐅 🐅 🐅 )
By the time I climbed into my bed last night, the tiger nightmare became a wonder-provoking story — the wild cement road shaded by such lush, neat bamboo trees and occupied by the majestic tigers are so shinny, smooth, enticing me to continue walking on it…. But I don’t want to feed them my cute, baby Pony! 🐴
🫂
Hi everyone,
just very shortly as I have to leave soon etc, thank you so much for your wishes, you are all so nice. Will keep you posted!
Trifles, if all goes wrong, let’s shack up in that lonely island, I‘ll do my best to be shiny and new 😆only joking.
Imho, not so sure of my working skills today, as I slept badly (I’m sure Snows good luck arrived nonetheless!), but will try to concentrate on my awesomeness🙈 and not to drag him into my cave, Bewitched. ABCD, your advice resonated very much- best not to dwell on future or past and just be in the moment.
Wish you all a beautiful day (or night, whichever!)
Mila, I hope you have a mentally relaxed/otherwise productive day! Do you have an excuse ready for tonight to avoid succumbing to a spontaneous dinner invite? Or will you just ‘play it by ear’? Let’s hope for the best, because I’m just not sure about that island… (Though the company would be great!) 😆
Mila,
After sending you my dream sand to you, guess what happened to me in my messy slumber?
I had a pony for a pet that took more than a half of my bed, but I didn’t have any appropriate food for him (no yellow dry grass near me). He was magically surviving for 3-4 days without eating and still looked strong, smiley with a good temperament — shacked up with a pony in my wildest dream!
Then, I ended up in this casual brunch in a stately house near my home, where I pumped into Trump, Obama, Michelle Obama, her mother, a couple of witches (from the show “the discovery of witches), and many people fussing around. I still could not find proper food for my pony at home, and myself ate a plate of god-knows what without enjoying it. …
Near the door an electrician, chatting with an official looking like guy, was recruiting his potential clients for house repairing. Other loud women were talked about going to the big museum next…
On the way out of the maze, I saw a lot of black seaweed stuck floating in a huge sink; my nausea pumped all my food out…. After coming out of that house, I took my pony for a walk on a wide cerement paved road heavily shaded by tall bamboo trees on two sides.
Coming into a forked cross, I was about walking into the only brighter, wider, sunnier road, then I suddenly saw three majestic beautiful 🐅 🐅 🐅 leisurely strolling on the road. My heart began ponding violently. 😱
I turned around, not sure which road the tigers would take after me. But by then, a little girl of 5-6 years old, out of nowhere, somehow appeared alone on the other fork of the road, and me standing on this one with my pony nearby…
Knowing there was no way I could either save myself or the little girl with my small pony … I woke up…
I think that three tigers symbolize cptsd’s multiple facets in both my childhood and present… when I’m digesting Schreiber’s article?
https://sharischreiber.com/do-you-love-to-be-needed/
Wow, Snow ,
what a dream. For me, my own feeling is the most important hint in dreams (sad, angry, happy). I guess you felt an urgency to find food for the pony and indecision/fear/pain at the situation in the end? A stressful dream?
Actually I don’t have any time or knowledge to start analyzing it🙈 you know best what it meant for you! hope you are feeling ok !
Maybe Pony symbolizes my limerence, and there is no more proper food for him/it anymore, either in stately brunch or in my neighborhood.
Outside the urban area, there is a big chance for those tigers to eat up the pony, although I wished in the dream to ride him to run, but then the little girl would be left alone there.
Think of it as I’m typing out, it was indeed my cptsd that suppressed/killed the LE pair-ponding desire and opportunities. Only by killing those tigers first, my pony, myself, and the little girl could survive.
But how? I can’t kill them without some sacrifice. Perhaps my dreams tells me: to leave the pony to the tigers and take the little girl to run? But those tigers would continue living on… 🤔
My feeling in the dream is hair-standing FEAR!
Worry first and then fear of an imminent death, although those shinny tigers (one is sitting calmly in the middle of the road) looked not in any rush, right before I woke up…
Another thought:
Those mild, leisure looking Siberian tigers could mean that my mind has already set peace with them; they are not in a rush to attack me, my pony, or the little girl. Maybe even not go after us if we calmly walk away.…
However, my old mindset still fears those old cptsd effects, as if they pose an imminent threat, while in face they do NOT. A potential danger is always there, but not at the moment of this forked cross road.
Perhaps my Unconscious shows me that the tigers would always be there, but could be peaceful, co-existing with me, my pony, and the little girl.
Another reading of the dream before I go into my dreamland 😴 —
1. I realized that I needed to find proper food for my very cute, smiley Pony 🐴 — my residual LE. He had not eaten for 3 or 4 days, but showing no sign of hunger.
2. Can’t find golden grass anywhere nearby, and I somehow ended up in a stately brunch with the most famous people of the day, but still no eatable food for the pony. Myself disliked anything in that maze-like house and actually threw up before I left.
3. Took the Pony to the countryside and wanted to get on that wider, brighter, sunnier road shaded by very tall, green, neatly lined up bamboo trees at the forked cross, hoping I could find grassy area.
4. Then three majestic, beautiful 🐅🐅🐅 appeared in the middle of wide road (wide enough to pass 4 cars), sitting, standing, and strolling.
5. My hair stood up, heart violently pounding (half awake) and I turned around wanting to run back to one of fork roads where I came from . But the little girl appeared alone on the other fork, and the Pony was standing further away from me, unaware of the tigers.
6. Realizing my inability to out run three big, strong, tigers, with a small pony and a girl, I woke up with dreadful heartbeat…
To me, three tigers still represent my cptsd, which has three major components. In my earlier interpretation, I thought they’d never die and alway pose threats to my survival even if I sacrifice the Pony and ran away with the girl (probably could not get far on foot).
Then, I said those tigers looked in no rush or hungry, which could mean that my mind was already made peace with them, so they would not attack my survival again. But somehow my old mindset was still scared of the cptsd impacts.
A few minutes ago, I got a new thought about what my Unconscious might try to tell me: you need to take the Pony and the girl to pass those tigers and get to the sunnier side of a new living. I couldn’t see what’s ahead of the curved, wider cement road, but it looked brighter, possibly with golden grass?
Now there are two possibilities: 1. I can pass those tiger and leave Pony to them. 2. Those tigers were already fed or even tamed by my hard working with them during my LE of 7 years and healed most of it, so they have lost powers to attack any of us! — this is my conscious mind judging….
But my old mindset in the Unconscious realm did not know this and woke up out of extreme fear of being eaten by the three tigers — my cptsd …. Now, how am I going to pass those three 🐯 🐯🐯 at the Unconscious level ?
Time to get into my dream land again, to see what will happen… 🛌 💤
Snow,
Don’t say if you’d rather not, but what do you feel the pony represented in that dream❓️
🫡 LaR 🔨
You’ve lost me with that Snow. Too cryptic for my brain! Have you been at the “Limerence on the Beach”?!
(I’ve seen your dream interpretation above – I thought the pony would be your limerence in some form, but didn’t want to plant ideas – just the hammer head I want to understand)
LaR,
“Limerence on the beach” (instead of American delicious “Sex on the Beach) is a brand new drink waiting for you to invent/mix for those of us who drop by the bar you and Trifles converted from Dr L’s coffeehouse and often frequented… 😉
Yeah, you’re right, I see the cute Pony as my limerence that lives without its proper food… how long is it going to last, I don’t know… I’m still searching for golden haystacks. 🌾
Oh don’t. I will be kicked out of this place if DrL finds out I tried to turn his coffeehouse into a bar (maybe it could be a bar for the holidays).
Trifles is innocent here. All she did was once made me a strawberry and mint smoothie to settle me down for that long clarifying message to you, at your request. I tried to give her hot chocolate back and it went downhill from there … the alcohol is my fault. I don’t want to sully her good name!
LaR,
Ok, our LE barman, Trifles is our sweetest bar attendant. It’s a holiday season, DrL would be grinning watching us LE “inmates” having some Merry Go ‘Round, LE Up and Down fun…
I reckon “Limerent on the Beach” would have some ingredients that make one first feel rosy ecstatic, peachy in reverie, then pale blue/brown, then tearful…. What a combo could make one feel so??
After I vented out my fear, those beautiful tigers no longer appear scary at all in my mind… In general, tigers or lions don’t provoke any fear in my visualization/imagination.
Snakes are my worst enemy in dreams… Zeus helps me 📣 not see them pulling my legs (did the past) in my slumbers…💤
Hey Snow, yeah, great idea – maybe DrL could order us a merry-go-round for Christmas outside the saloon?! So appropriate!
I think those different effects of ‘Limerence on the beach’ could be differentiated based on the amount of glasses of the ‘drug’ we choose to imbibe. We could add tasting notes to the menu to explain.
And the hammerhead??
“Limerent on the beach” 🏖️ in three colors — dark rosy, pinkish peach, and purple blue, is served in a set of 3 smaller cocktail glass (1/2 of normal size). One serve is called “One Taste” for the whole set. Needless to say, each mini glass has distinctive limerence flavor served in an intermittent interval.… when a customer becomes tearful or tipsy in the accompanied by Adam’s or LE’s DJ choice, bring him or her a glass of Trifler’s smoothie made of fresh strawberry, watermelon, cherry, passion-fruits, dragon fruit/Pitaya ….
Now, DrL can get some additional fund to help LwL…😄
Snow,
I think as a crew we are coming up with a decent little ‘side hustle’ for some LwL fundraising (ram a saloon with limerents and watch them greedily fill the till).
Should the industrial agricultural equipment rust in the barn over the winter, it is good to think about this different career path in cocktail shaking opening up 😀
LaR,
Morning greetings! No dream is remembered last night but woke up with a headache, so meditated (with my special combo techniques) about 30 minutes, and now all peachy…
You need to come up with the concrete receipt for “Limerence on the Beach” or “Limerence Swing” (a better name? since most of us limerents rarely hit the beach but swinging back and forth, up and down in a dry land), I think Mila and ABCD could use it more nowadays…. I wish they could physically meditate more to immediately reduce the over-pressing anxiety and heartache (not to solve LO dependency issues over nights), which I knew too well when ET was still around….
Mila, ABCD
I’m listening to you and feel your pains, but I’m always short of soothing words (aside from dry Stoic mantras)…. Hanging in there with deep breath, long walks, or LaR’s and Trifles’ sweet drinks, alcohol (free).
I’m leaving now to have a realistic brunch with my limerent friend and his 3rd wife (non-LE type), whose presence would prevent me from chatting about LE topic (he was in LE with me when I was still married and caused my SO’s concern, but I never had Glimmer, despite I was quite fond of his brilliant creativity, leadership and peacemaking abilities). We mutually understand well our LE tendency, respectively, and have zero judgment about our LEs.
Have a nice day/afternoon/evening!
Snow,
noo, my drink simply must have alcohol in it today…
Have a nice brunch!
The saloon has got a Guinness ready for you Mila, for whenever you care to swing by.
LaR,
I think Mila needs something stronger than that this evening, No?
I suggest something with Vodka based mixed with fiery 🔥 fruits to get the sad steam 😥 out of her head…
LaR,
A colorful order that has not reached to “Limerence on the Beach” but just “Limerence in Swing”….
Besides, litchi, passion fruit and dragon fruit, add some fresh blueberry as well,
❄️ – I am going to be out of a job soon, now you’re running the menu planning. I could do better 👩🏫. Will get working on the recipe for ‘long uncomfortable blues’
LaR,
I’m just blowing some voodoo ideas to your ears… you know better right portions of sequential drinks, that is critical to us limerent inmates here…
A bottle of vodka (or other type of fiery liquor) and those fiery or cooler fruits are what we need to try in our saloon…
LaR,
I see you just served ABCD a Taste of “Limerence in hot-n-cold balance” with your own signature, that would work for him! 👍
What did you call the drink you earlier served CSC?
I think that drink to CSC could be named, “Limerence in Hell under LO’s Spell”? some blackberry and blueberry in it, right?
Thanks for the Guinness, had a lot of white and red wine, that doesn’t bode well for sleep and work tomorrow 😆
Lovely evening though.
Tomorrow evening I’ll go light on the drink as to stay alert since LO will be there and I don’t want to blurt out stuff or get sentimental. Or get a headache.
Mila,
Ah, mixing your greap and graen! And two different colours of wine too. Hope you drank those in the right order. “Beer and wine makes you feel fine …”
Snow,
Not sure about CSC’s drink. I think many of us in CSC’s position need something cool-aid based for the ‘LE gap’ that the holidays will present. I’ll get thinking. Maybe a ‘low contact with lemon, lime and sugar’ to capture that bittersweet feeling. All washed down with a ‘bloody (hell I text LO on Christmas Day) Mary’.
I have a joke for you.
“A horse walks into a bar …”
What is the punchline?
A horse walked into a bar —
The bartender asks, “Why the long face?”
The horse says, “My SO fell in limerence with my best buddy. Got anything to help with that?”
The bartender looks him up and down, and says “Neigh.”
👏👏👏👏👏👏
Snow, that has knocked it out of the park.
I did have a punchline but it can’t beat that one.
‘A horse walked into a bar.
Its recent liking for alcohol is really starting to cause concern among members of the normally teetotal equine community.’
[Puts up shield against flying brownies and retreats quietly]
Snow,
can I have my vodka with fiery fruits now? Early in the day but I need something to keep me going🙈
~for the farmers’ forum~
A farmer walks into a bar with a pig under his arm. “Where’d you get that?” asks the barman. “I won it in a raffle” replies the pig.
😂 Trifles, honestly!
For today’s ‘can you invent a better punchline than the one LaR is thinking of?’ competition (Thanksgiving special), open to all:
“A herd of cows walk into a bar but none of them enjoy themselves.
.. [insert punchline] ..
Gotta go open up early – got Mila rattling the saloon impatiently. Hoping Snow has got a special of the day planned for her.
Mila,
Here is “Limerence on the Morning Spike”:
1 1/2 oz. vodka.
1 oz. Passion Fruit juice.
2 oz. Litchi juice.
2 oz. Dragon Fruit juice.
Mango wedge and maraschino cherries, for serving.
Nice, Snow! A bit too sweet for my taste, maybe, but leave the maraschino cherries out and I’ll take it!
Yeah, open the bar already!
I just decided to loosen up a bit and just have fun at work with LO when he angered me again with something. It’s a mixture of affection, fed-up-ness, a bit of desire and annoyance . Not a cocktail I would recommend.
LaR,
“[Puts up shield against flying brownies and retreats quietly]”
Hmmm…. 🤔 Let’s avoid the dangerous, dark, messy brownies, but serve colorful French Macaron in the saloon, especially for limerence reverie…
Mila,
If you think it’s too sweet, cut down the portion of Litchi (passion fruit and dragon fruit are not really sweet). Some cranberry juice could be added. Before you go out with LO in the evening, increase vodka dose.
The drink should dilute the “fed-up-ness” and “annoyance” in your vein…
The cows look at LaR (the bar keep) haughtily and declare: “You’re just not very a-moo-sing”..?
Snow, are you sure about Mila’s cocktail? She’s now only left with the affection and desire..?!
A group of head-down cows walk into the bar, the barman says, “we don’t serve Red Bull here.”
The cows answer, “Moooo, we’ll just go to an udder bar”. (Copied from internet)
Trifles,
The portion of “fed-up-ness” and “annoyance” have been higher in the last couple of days…. So the drink is to distill down their potency and her expectations, so Mila can carry a colorful, upbeat, yet balanced Limer composure to face her LO now or later in the evening… 😜
You are both right in a way, I don’t want to be left only with affection and desire, but annoyance is the one that bothers me most at the moment. So a drink that takes away annoyance and desire, tampers down fed-up-feeling to a feeling of content „yeah now that was enough contact with this guy for a couple of weeks“ and leaves normal affection, that would be great, thank you very much, will leave generous tips!
My (real) work (not farming or bar tending – I am being pulled in a lot of directions here you know, this is a lot like limerence!!) is preventing me being as creative as Snow with the cocktails. She is doing great!
But Mila I think we should just serve you up some Tequila slammers. The salt, tequila and lemon will allow you to experience a whole range of emotions in a few seconds and decide which fits best. And after any time I have ever had a few of those – well, I certainly haven’t wanted to see them again for a few weeks, and have had no regret about that fact. We can bring the cherries back as an option at the end if it all feels too bitter.
This shift work is knackering and I will need the weekend off. Shall I see if I can get that welder guy to provide cover?
Oh and Snow, your AI assisted joke nabbed my punchline:
“…it was an udderly disappointing experience all round”
Oh, and for the record, that was the cows’ opinion, not mine! I find our bar keep quite a-moo-sing. 😁
LaR,
Here in LwL town, feel free to be anyone you like, or shapeshifting…. I still have no clue of what’s your line of profession, which does not matter here. We are here either LO, SO, limerent, or both/threesome; male, female, or both…
FYI: I haven’t had any vodka in my household for over a decade, and can’t remember when it was last time I had vodka based drink, perhaps 2 or 3 years ago? I only like imagining. I might get a bottle during the winter break and try with those exotic fruits if I can find their juice/puree.
I also rarely use AI, unless my work requires some kind of image or poster making. Google is plenty for my cultural learning and wild fabricating…
Please don’t abandon us in the saloon over the weekend, to be covered by that hairy 🧑🏭 ? 😬 — that’s Bewitched choice… I don’t want any lawyer’s brief motion, either — tried one once (from an app) and my Zeus, sooooo udderly disappointing…. ☹️
I’m just going to meditate with Bob Lind’s lyrics….
Trifles,
You know what, I had ‘herd’ that rumour somewhere 😅🙃
‘quite’ amoosing – well I shall just have to try a bit harder to reach the next category up, eh!
You may pleased to know I am working on a few options to suggest to the community for a name for the Saloon (contributions from the patrons most welcome – I think there are endless possibilities). But the first pun that popped into my head, you may well destroy me if I ever mention again (and I *bet* you know exactly what I’m talking about 😳)
Snow,
I’m really sorry but it’s too late, the welder has been enlisted. Maybe Marcia needs to pop over and do a shift to keep his over exuberant behaviour in order? Or Adam to rescue anyone that the welder misbehaves with (only those who want rescuing, mind, I think Mila and Bewitched might not need that!).
A-moo-sing:
—What does the farmer talk about while milking a cow?
Udder nonsense.”
—What did the cow say when the bull broke up with her?
“Without you, I’ll never be whole milk again!”
—What do you call a group of cows in limerence with a sense of humor?
Laughing stock of limerence!
I actually don’t know what pun you were referring to… I’ve only forbidden the use of one pun/analogy and I meant using it in relation to me, and negating the term. It’s fine to use as a name for a saloon for limerents however! It’s up to them if they want to patronize thus-named joint.
Interestingly, I’ve just patented a certain term for use in the bar industry, so you will only have to pay me royalties for its use. Much like using the symbol ❄️ for beverages.
Trifles,
I did not know that was your patented name, sorry.
An ESL speaker here was trying to find out what “a-moo-sing” means and landed in https://www.boredpanda.com/cow-jokes/ — 123 Udderly A-moo-sing Cow Jokes
I just picked out 2.5 from it and added 0.5 of my own 😆
Here is my loyalty to you 💰👑
Snow, sorry – I forgot to say in my post that I was replying to LaR. He was thinking of naming the saloon, possibly using a pun that came from yours truly.
I didn’t realize I could patent a-moo-sing as well. (I came up with it myself, without Google!) Thanks for the loyalty/royalty in any case! 😉
Laughing stock would make a good name for the saloon. 👍
If a cow or horse walks into a bar, then it needs to cut down on the juice before it REALLY does itself an injury….. 😉
“Laughing stock would make a good name for the saloon. 👍”
That and the ‘AMoos- Inn’ (if not patented) are our early front runners then.
And both with agricultural undertone!
More ideas on way 🍻
LaR, A-ha, I was a little slow, but no-o-ow I get the forbidden phrase you were referring to..!
In my last comment I was thinking of “The Spring Chicken”, but is that too seasonal?
*Runs off to patent “On the Hook”.
Ok … as you let the words out … now I dare to … I was thinking about “The Hooked Inn”??
Or “The House of Hot and Cold Cycles” (devoted to ABCD)
I like the name Amoor’s (hooked?) Inn — It has Moo, and aGreek God of love, “Amor”-Cupid who is udderly responsible for limerence 💘!
Inn is in the country/nature, where there are ample haystacks for horses (my Pony), cows/bulls, sheep, chicks, and cock-a-doodle-do 🐔
Serial Limerent,
What would juices do to horses 🐎 and cows 🐄 ❓
@Snow
Juice is a euphemism for alcohol. 🙂
„ But Mila I think we should just serve you up some Tequila slammers. The salt, tequila and lemon will allow you to experience a whole range of emotions in a few seconds and decide which fits best. And after any time I have ever had a few of those – well, I certainly haven’t wanted to see them again for a few weeks, and have had no regret about that fact.“
Ha! Read that still at work and had to laugh.
I‘m all for Hooked Inn, but please make a sign for hairy welders to keep out, this guy starts to look sinister to me.
Week with LO is going on, I‘m still puzzling. I‘m still changing between moods/views of him like crazy. As expected, he‘s brilliant at work, I realized that this is where he shows his best sides and where I miss him most, and that I still have a great sadness inside me that he abandoned me there. But then, I listen to him in the evening etc, and hear/see things that are ever so slightly annoying me.
It was a nice evening, but I was very tired, I didn’t talk to him much which was absolutely fine for me, and now I‘m not at all in the mood for another evening like this at our place today, also because my SO is not keen. But cannot really uninvite him.
I‘m much too detailed here, I know, but I’m very sure that neither SO nor LO would ever read this.
Something is working inside me by itself, but not sure, what the outcome will be.
If we’re happy for it to be called an Inn (I approve of the countryside link), then our early runners are the Amoor Inn and the Hooked Inn, then.
Here are ten more possible limerent Inn names. I’ll await your feedback while I try and call the welder off:
1. The Inn-termittent Reward
2. The GlimmerInn’
3. The Reverie and RuminatInn’
4. The Purposeful LivInn’
5. The Inn Fatuation
6. The Overshare Inn
7. The Inn Decisive
8. The RationalisInn’
9. It’s Inn their eyes
10. The Inn too deep
LaR, I think you saved the best for last! I like Inn Too Deep.
Following up on forbidden phrases/items, I would forbid the sales of one cocktail at the saloon. Inn-stead we could offer Sex on the Ranch, where the peach schnapps is replaced with butter milk. Hmm. Not sure if it will catch on…
I still push for the name “Amoor Inn” because it is spirited by the Greek God of love, it hints a Moo-Sing fun/laughters and it covers the some nagging/annoying/addictive aspects of LE without revealing them upon first glimpse on the name.
Moreover, Amor or Glimmer is very luring without arousing suspicion or worry of being trapped/hooked or of being too rational/purposeful when one just wants to relax or fancy amorous dreams little, especially during the holiday.
To raise more fund for Dr L, the Inn needs to seduce some non-limerents or random/innocent passerby.
@Mila @Snow
haha – i just saw your thing about the drinks and the drink names.
Yep, Kool-Aid based and very bitter – lemons for sure — would have done me fine! 🙂 I would like the edge of the glass ringed in crushed quaaludes, kind of like a Martine. Actually, instead of a glass, can it be served in a giant Trophy? hahaha
I think maybe it could be called a “Existential Sunrise” or “Midlife Special” haha :))
oops not Martini — Margarita. 🙂
Hi CSC,
I think it were Lim-a-Rant, Snow and Trifles who invented all the racy drinks. I just baked lame cookies that I ate myself, and they discussed which drink would get my spirits up best and plied me with Guinness.
Turned out I managed it with a little red wine and some truth-revealing texting- wouldn’t say no to a decent Margarita, though, just to celebrate a bit. I like „Existential Sunrise“!
Cheers!
Mila,
I think I’ve figured out your niche at this bar. Would you be on European wine sourcing? I say this as wine did you good at the weekend and you seem to travel enough to fit in a few tastings …
Everyone,
first day of working with LO over. Not quite sure about it. He‘s physically not feeling well, so it’s a bit hard to judge his mood towards me, but I’m being nice, he‘s being – actually, I don’t know. He‘s kind of nice but wary, or maybe just in pain. I think we are ok, but it feels a bit awkward. I won’t go out this evening, although there’s still the option (our mutual friend keeps asking). I don’t feel like it.
I‘m experiencing something that I can only describe as cognitive dissonance, but I’m not quite sure why and what the layers are exactly.
Will not mull it over now, though, just keep on being nice, it seems the easiest route. I think he noticed my pulling back etc and is a bit pissed off/decided to be a bit aloof. But since he‘s aloof anyway at the best of times, it doesn’t impress me that much. Also, I cannot be really follow any strategies with someone in pain. I try to help him and hope he gets better🤷🏻♀️I think that’s the main thing now.
But I‘m quite confused by this strong feeling of dissonance. It’s really like different layers of opposite feelings/thoughts or whatever, but never really surfacing. Guess there’s some denial involved, or I’m experiencing the old ruts of limerence having a ghost-like awakening while not being in use anymore, plus the new paths of non-limerence layered over them. Cannot express myself.
Dear Mila,
Your feelings were very well expressed and I got a strong sense from how you described them.
“But I‘m quite confused by this strong feeling of dissonance. It’s really like different layers of opposite feelings/thoughts or whatever, but never really surfacing. Guess there’s some denial involved, or I’m experiencing the old ruts of limerence having a ghost-like awakening while not being in use anymore, plus the new paths of non-limerence layered over them”
New paths of non-limerence layered over the ‘hangover’ of your old feelings seems about what I would expect at this stage. The strength of feeling from when you were strongly limerent (remember last Christmas?) and the long drawn-out nature of that feeling and its aftermath must leave a hangover. But so too does the more tiresome stuff, from being in limbo from the lack of decision, *its* long drawn-out nature (and the nature of its being revealed by LO’s wife), as well as the unsatisfactory texting and lack of appreciation for you which you’ve gained an appreciation of with a bit of distance and perspective. No wonder the layers are all there. But they are only feelings, and all feelings pass. The main thing is actions, and you are doing the right thing by being nice, especially if LO is ill. You don’t need to go out of your way, however!
Rest-up well and I hope the rest of the trip goes well for you. Feel free to share with us and talk it out. Goodness knows I have been talking your ears off in the last few days. I hope that you are feeling good about yourself and have your mojo going. I plan on booking tickets to see some art.
„ (remember last Christmas?) “
Actually what I remember is having one of the little truth moments- I had an emergency of some sort and needed someone in my hometown with a car to help me out, and I realized that I didn’t want to ask him because I thought he would make a fuss, would do it and then be very smug and I would have the feeling of being in his debt. I thought of three other people I‘d ask before I would ask him.
It could be that I might have done him wrong there. But still, that’s what I remember from last Christmas…
Hi Mila,
Day 1 complete. That’s a win. Shame if he is unwell though. Don’t get too close, you don’t want to get sick!
Cognitive dissonance is something that I recognise in my struggles. Maybe to recognise that these few days ahead, you have both your true friend and your fantasy LO now in front of you, which is probably creating the dissonance. ( I’m no expert ! ) Maybe just let your thoughts flow and go (they are not actions) and the real life interactions just happen naturally, as they did before limerence and tap into the memories of that earlier time, which may help resolve the dissonance over coming days, to kind of re-set.
I hope you can relax and feel contented after this time working with your friend.
Hi Imho,
Thanks for your kind words!
It’s nothing contagious, it’s back pain.
„and the real life interactions just happen naturally, as they did before limerence and tap into the memories of that earlier time, “
I‘m not sure if that’s possible since he himself doesn’t behave like in earlier time. I think he finally got the message that I wanted to reduce the contact and is now different. And, I‘m not sure myself if I just can go back to that same friendship. I think either we have to create the friendship new or it will remain a bit paler , more distant and kind of strained version of the old one. You see, my thoughts flow like heck😆
I don’t feel contented at the moment, it’s more a flat feeling…
How are you feeling with your upcoming event? Maybe heed your own advice- relax and feel contented to meet a friend, nothing more, let guide this motto your actions and your thoughts/observations can still flow freely?
Mila,
Ooo, back pain. I feel for him, as you cannot rest your back.
it seems a little sad if that previous friendship dynamic has gone, but I guess all relationships evolve in time and so we have to adapt and embrace it. I’m personally not great with change.
A ‘flat feeling’ is not so bad maybe, compared to so many other worse /erratic emotions us limerents go through. I dunno. I’m very up and down and probably in a similar place actually.
As for me, I feel the need to go with ‘distance’. I’m still figuring it out.
Hi Imho,
I‘m also still figuring out what’s going on or what’s best for me. It feels like an effort to be warm, I kind of lost natural reflexes in this friendship, while I miss him/it at the same time.
Maybe leave some wiggle room for spontaneous adjustments. And I really have to say, despite me feeling otherwise at the moment, being nice in most cases feels better afterwards. Like Bewitched said, nice but not falling over yourself to be nice (she surely expressed it differently, cannot recall)…
Hi Mila. Just read your message describing day #1 working with LO.
I get what you are saying about feeling that the relationship not being as warm as before. In the past, when LO has ignored me, I have been devastated, its like a knife going though the heart, very painful. I kept telling myself, LO behavior is not in my control. I can only work on stuff that is in my control, like being nice when there is a meetup.
However, I noticed that I have bounced back from those negative emotions, every single time, and have felt better with the passage of time. So I just keep telling myself when I feel low – do not worry, this will pass, and it does.
I had another recent contact with LO, and this one was super warm, with LO complementing. So much for my theory that LO is detatching 🙂 Just shows that many times, our mind just makes stuff up, both positive and negative.
I won’t lie, the last contact felt really good. It has taken me out of my bad mood. Going forward, I am just telling myself – hey, LO and I are ok. We can speak to each other, within barriers, whenever we get the chance.
We shall see how I take the next cold interaction.
For now, I am trying to live in the moment.
I would advise you to continue being nice, irrespective of LO behavior. This is the best way to go about it.
I agree with others that you are experiencing a mixture of emotions, recognise them, acknowledge them, I am sure they shall pass soon.
All the best, and let us know how it goes.
Hi ABCD,
Thanks you! I‘m glad you feel better. Yes, it’s much easier when LO is being warm and nice. Best is when they are warm and nice but with firm boundaries.
In my case, it’s not so much about hot/cold cycles and wondering why. I do know that it‘s all of my making. I reduced contact and now he‘s even more withdrawn with his show of emotions,exactly the character trait that made me angry and withdraw.
I‘m a bit sad about it all, and at the same time know that effort on my side would be required to get the warmth up because he‘s so d… passive.
I mean, all is ok on the outside, I invited him in for tea yesterday, he‘ll also have dinner here this week etc, but actually, I feel like this week is already dragging on, and I already think of ways to escape the lunchbreak with him today, I cannot do much more of this slightly depressing stuff.
What is depressing me is that I think he will never make a real step like asking if something is the matter, of remarking on changed atmosphere. It would all always be up to me.
In earlier times this didn’t irritate me, I just didn’t think about it, because he wasn’t that important , maybe. I don’t know if I can get back to that innocent and relaxed friendship.
At the moment, I cannot enjoy his company very much, but I do miss him as a friend, if that makes sense.
Off I go for another day of trying..
Hi Mila.
In the past, I have sometimes not gone to places where LO would be present. Now, contact has naturally reduced.
Think of this as a short term series of meetings, this week will be over soon.
You are not happy with lack of effort from LOs side. I understand how you feel.
You have been very courageous in reducing contact from your side. I am not that strong, yet.
I would say just hang in there, you will feel better.
Sorry, cannot offer more helpful advice.
Hi ABCD,
„ Sorry, cannot offer more helpful advice.“
I cannot say how helpful it is for you all to simply reading and sympathizing.
It means very much to me!
Thank you!
Mila,
This is a shot in the dark, but can you reignite the friendship (as a friendship) by thinking of / writing down everything you liked about him that made you friends in the first place? Or has all that had too much shade thrown on it, by the repeat exposure to the bits of him you find irritating, and the trauma of the LE (let us be honest, there is always trauma to some extent)?
Your analysis of it with Bewitched yesterday of the old and new sets of views ‘doing battle’ sounds intuitively pretty solid.
Hi Lim-a-Rant,
I‘m not sure I want to write it down. Just fled from the canteen (LO sat there in conversation with LO1, that was a bit much for me to handle, but I guess he’ll see it as renewed coldness that I left).
I seem to be in a rut where I cannot be nice without him being a bit more actively nice, actively making a step towards me, and I remember that behavior of mine from earlier LEs. The thing is that my former LOs kind of saved me from my own mood (which feels kind of frozen) by delivering said active niceness, and this one won’t. So, can I manage to jump over my own shadow (do you say that in English?) and make the step myself (again), or not?
Sorry to pester you all with this stuff, maybe I shouldn’t report every single day here😆
Come to think of it (having fled in the lunchbreak too), „trauma“ might hit the nail on the spot (or whatever you say in English. Found out there‘s no“jump over one‘s own shadow“. Pity, it’s a great expression).
I think I’m a bit traumatized by this whole uncertainty/always a little too less warmth- LE/friendship.
Hi Mila,
By ‘jump over your own shadow’ do you mean take the first step by being nice to LO when he is not making the effort?
I do not think that this has to be something that you worry about too much because that makes it into a vicious cycle. Worrying makes the interaction really hard and abnormal. I also payed attention when someone, maybe LaR, mentioned the word ‘Trauma’. Coming out the other side of an LE is traumatic especially when its with a friend or work colleague that you need to maintain or want to maintain cordial relationship with. There is no doubt about that. Its hard to establish normality when you see them or hear from them (virtually) only rarely. Maybe, on some level, you were also freaked out by the sight of LO with LO1 (who you don’t like so much). I think that you can always make an excuse for feeling strange – a little white lie like a lack of sleep last night. Or if you prefer, you can just style it out with purpose – no pandering to compensate for LO’s social failings! Either way can also be rationalised later once dynamics stabilise into a new phase – e.g. when you go away on your trip. If I were you, I would be seeking refuge in other work friends and colleagues. Maybe hanging with the younger ones as that is always a laugh and can be a balm from the heavy feelings. That, or planning a sneaky cocktail at home after work – reverie for home comforts and your favourite show or something…. Distraction works!!!!
(And this nice man, or reasonably nice man, does not need to take up space in your mind, bless him. If that sounds patronising, its because it is!!!)
Hi Bewitched,
Thank you a lot, also for this “ no pandering to compensate for LO’s social failings! ”
because that’s what I usually do. As you know, it’s a bit necessary with him and his neurodivergence, but it’s my free decision if I want to help him out there or not, it’s not my obligation.
As to sneaky cocktails and favorite shows etc, I already shovel very many sweets into myself because of the stress of that situation, because I’m in dear need of rewards …
Tonight (it’s socially a very busy week, I’m not usually out in the evening, but suddenly every evening this week)I’ll see friends that I love very much, together with SO, I’m looking forward and it will be a welcome break.
“ (And this nice man, or reasonably nice man, does not need to take up space in your mind, bless him. If that sounds patronising, it’s because it is!!!)”
That’s the mindset I aspire to. He really doesn’t mean ill, I want to get back to like him in an indulgent way, not caring too much about what he thinks, and stop to judge and be angry at his social failings all the time. The question is, can I do that now or does it need more time or even more anger.
I guess I just let it roll, and as you say, there will be more opportunities like this trip to get into calmer waters.
Bewitched,
forgot to explain, „jump over one‘s shadow“ means doing something one really has to force oneself to do because one doesn’t want to do it, but does it for the sake of others or because it’s generally for the best.
(LO just sent a very gormless text, just to make contact. It‘s always a wonder to me how many clues he misses. When a friend would behave the way I did, I would ask if something’s the matter or at least if they are ok, but he „cannot get out of his skin“ another expression.)Of course the text is about himself, and I replied duly but now he won’t read or answer it (not fact, my prediction).
Mila,
I can’t even see where you said you were worried you were over-sharing, or ‘maybe I shouldn’t share so much’, but please don’t worry about it. This is a great safe place to get the stuff out that’s bothering us and try and make sense of it with others’ help. Those who don’t want to read it all can just scroll past (I say this as I am conscious I have been an ‘oversharer’ of late)
Hi ABCD,
A few thoughts drawing on my LE experiences alongside what you shared.
“Just shows that many times, our mind just makes stuff up, both positive and negative”
Believe me I have truly been here. This is one part of my LE that I think I’ve mostly conquered, mainly through repeat assembly of alternative and more rational evidence. It needed a lot of repeats, and I still have slips.
“Going forward, I am just telling myself – hey, LO and I are ok. We can speak to each other, within barriers, whenever we get the chance.”
A double sided response from me to that. The positive side is I think it is a great mindset to cultivate if LO is around us a fair bit. If you can *really* do it, it will help you reduce the highs and lows. The other side is that I find it creates limbo. It allows me to *live with* limerence, but hasn’t (yet) removed limerence – it just manages it, turns volume down a bit. But Bewitched has suggested to me it is still only a short time span that I have been ‘at this’ strategy, and that the second issue might eventually catch up and resolve.
It does sound like things with LO took you both into and out of the dip, which says she is still quite a big mood regulator for you.
“You have been very courageous in reducing contact from your side. I am not that strong, yet”
But if you say you have avoided events LO will be at, maybe you have been stronger than you think? I do think lowering contact as much as you reasonably can would help you. This is a part that at least the more recovery-motivated side of me wishes I had the option of. But it is in a constant battle with the limerent side.
Stay strong my friend.
Thanks for your perspective, LaR.
My mind really amplifies both the positive and negative with respect to LO. Definitely need a more toned down response. I am happy to see your success in this regard. I will continue working on this aspect. This is pretty crucial to recovery.
I am feeling upbeat due to the recent interaction, though the flip side is that I am still clinging on to LE, limerence may creep in to push me back two steps. This seems a short term solution, am aware of that.
“It does sound like things with LO took you both into and out of the dip, which says she is still quite a big mood regulator for you”.
A yes to LO still being a mood regulator. The one thing is that contact has reduced now, so exposure to the highs/lows has also reduced. I will try to manage them with LC, for now.
The LC has helped, no chance of NC though, looks like.
Thanks for your wishes, you stay strong too. Cheers.
ABCD,
I wanted to share a story with you in follow up (Bewitched, it also follows from what I told you yesterday)
LO threw me some slight curveballs yesterday. LO is the sort of person who enjoys throwing curveballs in a bantering way. I am 50/50 if she even knew she was doing it. With hindsight I set myself up to have them thrown at me (I got a reaction I deserved and could have predicted).
In the past two things would have happened to me as a result. 1. it would set me off on a terrible rumination; 2. the very next time I saw her, all the worst scenarios I created in the rumination would be disproved by a warm interaction to compensate. Rinse down and repeat. Something, somewhere has stuck, to tell me this is just how the ‘hot’ and ‘cold’ cycle with her works (the hot is not as hot as limerent brain believes, the cold is not as cold as my limerent brain believes). Like I said before, LOs are just people with normal moodswings, real lives outside the LE, and who didn’t ask to be our LOs.
I saw the choice I had yesterday which was either to ruminate, feel rubbish for 24 hours and then feel great again today when the ‘compensatory’ interaction happened, or the option I went for ‘don’t get pulled in by the rumination: you know what happened and why, trust that it means little and you know what happens next, like every other time’. I chose that second way, the warm interaction then arrived on schedule, and I exited that 24 hours having felt neither a massive low or high.
I don’t know what clicked or when to open up this option to me, but it has worked several times now and spared me the rumination and the low. I think it is just repeat exposure to evidence or as Bewitched put it, familiarity. All the good in a relationship can hardly ever be undone in a single cold interaction, as our limerent brains might have us think.
I know our situations are different but the last two interactions for you sound like they have a similar pattern. I wonder if there is anything there you can tap into to help.
There are other areas of my LE where I am still struggling much more, so I am not raising victory flags by any means. But you’ve got to take the triumphs when they come.
I don’t know if this tactic can work for you or whether you really need to go with as LC as poss as your strategy, or both. I hope handling the interactions gets easier for you.
I need a smoothie and a sympathetic ear from a barman/fellow patron. (I sure hope it’s not the welder’s shift yet!) I’m upset with TO. He’s planning a trip in the vicinity of me (still not very close, but closer) with his family. And of course he doesn’t want to meet me, just like he said we couldn’t meet when I was near him last summer. I think we could meet as friends but last time he said he would be too tempted. It frustrates me now that our relationship is all digital and that he is so secretive about it. (LaR, I think this answers your question about EAs.) And I think it upsets me because it makes me feel like he is just using me for validation.
There’s nothing I can say to that (not meeting me). Of course he should prioritise his family. Although who knows if his SO even wants to come along, but the kids… And what does that say about me that I choose people who I have no right to ask/demand anything from? Don’t answer, that’s a rhetorical question.
At these times I feel like I should cut off contact. But I know I couldn’t do it because I also get positives from our interaction. It’s now been 7 months of daily contact. He texts me when he wakes up and last thing at night (usually within my time limits, i.e. not too late) and most days a few times in between. He initiates the texting. Am I wrong to have expectations for him, at least for him to want to meet?
Hmm. This feeling of frustrating will probably pass, just venting now.
Trifles,
(Real) work (Friday is my beast day there, I just can’t herd those dratted sheep) prevents the barman articulating much of a reply until much later.
Snow with her cocktails is on lates today. So I’ve mixed you up an apple, kiwi and watermelon smoothie to soothe those frayed nerves 🍏😀 Grab yourself a stool and let’s see which other patrons turn up with helpful words.
You are right to feel frustration. I will expand my thoughts later. Take it easy on yourself today.
Trifles,
I’d mix mango, papaya, litchi, passionfruit, kiwi, watermelon, banana and a bit of sweetened almond milk for you for now. Your stomach needs to be sweetened and settled first.
The 2nd or 3rd order would be adjusted based on your feelings then.
Oh and I have security on the door in case that flipping welder shows up waving his blowtorch around.
You could let the lawyer raise a motion with a brief or whatever. Let the two fight it out between them!
Mila,
Lawyer’s “brief motion” 💼 becomes even more limping in front of Amoor Inn. Forget about him!
Bringing a French-Fencing ⚔️ amateur would have a better chance to fend off the 🧑🏭 .
Hello Trifles.
It is perfectly natural for you to feel frustration at LO not wanting to meet, especially as you have heavy virtual contact. The feeling will pass, hang in there.
“And what does that say about me that I choose people who I have no right to ask/demand anything from? Don’t answer, that’s a rhetorical question”.
Wow, I feel exactly the same. Its like I have all these expectations from LO in my mind, and when they are not met or partially met, I get disturbed. I am now trying to have close to zero expectations from LO (our contact is nowhere close to yours), hopefully that will work.
“And I think it upsets me because it makes me feel like he is just using me for validation”.
I get this feeling too, but then for my case, I think, I am also using her for validation, so LO and I are even.
Hope you feel better soon!
Thanks for the sympathy, ABCD. I appreciate it. My situation is a little different (or at least I fool myself that it is), because I don’t think he is an LO, but an old friend/TO (transferent object). Anyway, in the end, same difference!
I hear you on the mutual validation. I think it might be quite common – or else it’s just a part of normal relationships(?!): you are each other’s cheerleaders. It works that way with us too, we’re even. I have even told him this, or voiced this fear that we are using each other for validation. So basically all is out in the open, there is no ambiguity. Just the dissonance that he would rather keep me close but at a distance! On the hook, one might say. 🙈 (You might not have followed my (his) back story, but in a nutshell – wow, this is short! – his SO cheated on him, checked out of the relationship and said he’s welcome to do whatever he wants. He’s in denial.)
LaR, thanks for the smoothie! And P.S. I think the welder might be feeling some dissonance too – first you hire him, then you have security fend him off! 🤔 A little hot/cold there…
Thanks, Trifles. My LO and I have not expressed anything to each other, rather than praising. Both have SOs, and all know each other, so its a minefield.
Just curious, do you mostly interact socially, and physical meetings are rare? With me, we had physical + social interactions earlier. Now, its physical only, those too are sporadic.
Hi Trifles,
I understand! It feels like you are only good enough for some areas in his life, but not all?
But look at it from another perspective, he‘s quite honest with you here, and most probably it would be agonizing for him to meet you with his SO in tow. Maybe it’s not that he wants to exclude you but he just couldn’t handle it?
It’s a bit like LaR who says he cannot imagine his LO and SO communicating.
I‘m different, I always felt the urge to „normalize“ everything by getting all together, in the hope that it would normalize my feelings, and because it felt otherwise somehow like cheating for me. Cannot say if that was noble or stupid.
And of course you use each other for validation, that doesn’t exclude real affection for each other.
I can understand that it doesn’t sit well with you though. Wouldn’t with me either, but I‘m not sure 100% why, would have to think more about it.
ABCD, No, since we reconnected earlier this year, it’s only been virtual contact. (We both needed support with something. For me it was my LE.) He lives far enough away that physical meetings would require some arrangements. And that’s been fine with me, but when our travels bring us close-ish by coincidence, and we don’t meet, I don’t like it.
Mila, I think you hit the nail on the head: “It feels like you are only good enough for some areas in his life, but not all?”
You’re right that he has been honest and probably couldn’t handle it. You’re brave for bringing (or continuing to bring, after he changed into an LO) LO and SOs together.
It would actually be very strange to meet his SO (we knew each other before he met her). Probably because I’ve heard a lot of things about her, mostly bad. In effect, I really do not respect her at all. So I can’t say I would be looking forward to meeting her! (His fault for sharing so much about her.) I’m kind of doubtful his SO will even end up going on the trip with him (it’s not for awhile), but you never know, some people spend time together as a family even after the parents have broken up.
Hi Trifles,
in my first LE I had heard a lot of bad things about his SO too and there I brought everyone together only for one time and didn’t like that at all. There was mutual disclosure though, and there it felt even more like lying to bring them together than not to meet.
I don’t quite understand why he doesn’t want to meet even when his SO isn’t there. Ok, he says he would be tempted, but I still would like to meet the person I like that much that I text her daily? You could just have coffee in a public place.
Mila,
“I don’t quite understand why he doesn’t want to meet even when his SO isn’t there.“
Because this TO is not warm hearted YOU! I don’t know who he is but could cast some dark light on possible personal weakness, vulnerability or selfishness based on the facts given here. But is contemplating this TO/LO’s motives fertile? Would our compassionate understanding or change his decision, if totally/partially set?
The dynamic here to me (as I tend to see/prepare everything in the darkest light) is: an online confidant/“friend” refuses even a cup of coffee in public (with whatever excuses) after speaking to you (collective) day and night? WHAT are YOU going to DO (include mental doing) about IT❓❓
It’s very difficult and painful no matter which direction(s) Trifles resolves to handle it. It’s highly challenging to get out of such muddy water…
Snow, thank you for worrying about me. But I am fine. I’ve known him for ages before this and I know him pretty well. However, the fact is he is *still *just a friend currently so I can get over any frustrations, it’s not the end of the world. Now I feel like I have to defend him! 😅
My frustration is not in not knowing why he is like this, he has told me. It just annoys me despite that. He’s honest to a fault and he just couldn’t justify meeting me (someone he has some kind of feelings for) while still together with his SO.
Mila, well, he is planning the trip for the whole family. I’m just skeptical that she’ll come based on where they are in the relationship. The first time (when I was near his town) he would’ve had to drive out to meet me and (honest as he is) he would’ve needed to explain to her where he’s going. I’m sure she wouldn’t have cared, but he cared. As it turned out, he was booked elsewhere for that weekend anyway so he didn’t have to wrestle with the decision.
Trifles,
If you know him so well as friend, then can you express your frustration DIRECTLY/HONESTLY to him? Then forgive him? Can you suggest a cup of coffee in public even with kids & SO (put aside your dislike of her)?
TO or LO, your style of communication amounts to LE “addiction” which would raise a certain amount of expectation on your side, which seems not going to be met.
I’m not offended at all (despite I view the dynamic from a different perspective) that you define your TO/LO, as long as it helps with your mental state and moods, as long as it does not enable or elongate your frustrations and pains — that you know best during the first/last moments of your day.
Keep freely venting out here…
🫂 Triflers,
Ouch 😣 , ouch 😓, ouch!🤕
The word “frustration” or “upset” is undermining your profound sad feelings now. Your situation is very triggering to me personally (have been in your 👠 several times), and I’d feel “heart-wrenching/stabbing”. (Don’t worry, I’m not triggered now after that powerful dreams as I described to LE).
My view of your situation is very dark, infused with dry Stoic hues. My personal suggestions cannot be achieved over night or even over weeks. I’m afraid they would worsen your pains even further with my inability to sugar coat them. Our barman is really good with words.
I have some deadline to beat, so will be with you later. Meanwhile, taking as much smoothies to settle the tensed nerves. But consider an order of my 🍹 soon.
Hi Bewitched,
„ Goodness knows I have been talking your ears off in the last few days.“
Not at all. You‘ll never reach my level of blathering on here when in a crisis😂
I‘m not on a trip, I’m at home, he‘s being working as a guest since his position isn’t filled yet. The long business trip with LO is coming up next year, and I took your and others‘ advice to cross that bridge when I come to it and not worry about it now. It’s still a long time off.
I think the dissonance stems also from there being a certain degree of untruth in both layers. Limerence didn’t show a true picture of LO (too positive )the state of mind that got me out of limerence doesn’t show a true picture either ( too negative). I‘m meandering between these two without getting a grip on the true nature of my feelings towards him or seeing him neutrally, or better, there is also a neutral layer, but this one doesn’t really surface yet.
Thanks for getting my thoughts going on that curious state of mind.
I’ll continue one discussion started with LaR here, so that others might find it too if they’re interested in the topic.
“Would be interested to know the gist of what those books you read said about it (alternative relationship structures).”
Those books were narrated by women in their 40s who had a child/children, and the books were loosely based on their own experiences. They were both in the same rut: marriage seemed to be over but they wanted to keep their family intact for the children. Hence opening the relationship. So this kind of goes against your argument of monogamy for the kids’ sake.
“I guess the best I can come up with (and it may sound outdated and overgeneral) is that, evolution wise, mono relationships tend to provide the best stability to children.”
In strict monogamy their situation would have been an unhealthy environment for the kids AND eventually ended in divorce. Their main argument for open/poly relationships was to keep the main relationship and family intact.
What was interesting was that in both books, the men were at first hesitant. And that the men ended up quickly starting up one serious side relationship each, while the women were more adventurous with several less serious partners (flings). The books ended a few years into the new arrangements, so we don’t know what will happen some more years down the road. Except by trying to follow the writers’ real lives.
Here’s one of them that I recommend for the ladies (40+). “All fours” by Miranda July about a woman’s midlife crisis (and LE). It supports my theory about midlife hormones being a catalyst for an LE. It’s a “bit” (understatement) over the top, and you’ll have to deal with some cringey and crude descriptions (and language), so I don’t recommend it for the prudish. But it’s genius in its own way! July also made the acclaimed film “You and me and everyone we know”. I had never heard of her before seeing her book reviewed in Vanity Fair, but I’m definitely going to see that film.
Corrections: “Me and you and everyone we know”. And the writer July has since separated from her husband. I don’t know how much of her own life is in the book, but she interviewed a lot of people for it.
Trifles,
Yeah I thought my statement about monogamy and children was too simplistic at the time of writing it. Thanks for sharing this extra information about the books. I guess what you said looks at it from the different angle of where relationships often end up after the kids are older, and the relationship gets ‘opened up’. Maybe this is actually a way of keeping greater stability (compared to, say, the two parents being miserable or breaking up). I was coming at it more from a different standpoint of if people get into a polycule earlier in life (as seems to be becoming a bit more popular among ‘the young ‘uns) and then children come along and are somehow incorporated into the polycule, how that might work. This is interesting stuff that definitely has further to run as people’s thinking moves on over the generations. Good to think about things in alternative ways anyhow!
Hi Mila:
“Come to think of it (having fled in the lunchbreak too), „trauma“ might hit the nail on the spot (or whatever you say in English. Found out there‘s no“jump over one‘s own shadow“. Pity, it’s a great expression).
I think I’m a bit traumatized by this whole uncertainty/always a little too less warmth- LE/friendship”.
—–
I can totally relate to your feelings. I was in the same boat not too long ago, as you may remember from my recent posts. I too wanted to run away from that place, but I could not, so I stuck around, talking to other colleagues, trying to avoid LO, and yet not able to stop looking for her. I was depressed for well over a week.
How much more of him do you need to see? I think it was just this week – right?
hang in there, this will pass. Nothing is constant, not even our negative thoughts.
Sending lots of strength your way.
Thanks a lot!
„ How much more of him do you need to see? I think it was just this week – right?“
Yes, this week. I‘ll see a lot of him actually, just got invited again to another colleague tomorrow night with LO, and this time will go as I really like the colleagues SO, haven’t seen her in a while, and maybe it’s good to thaw the atmosphere a bit, I don’t know. Also, he’s coming to my place one evening etc.
I think the gathered anger or dislike that I’m still feeling and the inability to be warm stems from never having had a real break from this friendship to grieve or be angry. Since limerence was anyway “wrong” and I tried to maintain the friendship, I never could really live through my angry or sad feelings because we were always “good friends” on the outside.
But, as you say, it’ll all pass, nothing is constant, and maybe I’ll manage to get back to normal tomorrow. Today I was all but ignoring him, only once asking about his health. That’s not how I want to be behaving, actually, since he didn’t do me any harm on purpose.
I’m so glad to have you all,you are so patient with me agonizing here! Really, it helps very much just to feel understood.
Snow,
This one cycled through my playlist this morning. I think if anybody on LwL would appreciate it on LwL, it’s you.
“Elusive Butterfly” – Bob Lind (1968)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbuC9hX2XAk
This is the only known recording of the complete song. The version released on radio was heavily cut down.
I find it very poignant.
Thanks for the song, LE! I like the title and got most of words of it, but missed a couple of crucial ones.
I’m trying to figure out why the singer says, “it’s burden too heavy to carry”? Your LO2 is in it, right?
Even if catching butterfly is elusive or even painful, it will never shy us limerents away, our DNA codes the chase. Chasing them in reverie or dreams would bring the sensation as in reality.
Correction: would bring the same exalting sensation as in reality….
Snow,
Here are the lyrics:
You might wake up some morning
To the sound of something moving past your window in the wind
And if you’re quick enough to rise, you’ll catch the fleeting glimpse of someone’s fading shadow
Out on the new horizon, you may see the floating motion of a distant pair of wings
And if the sleep has left your ears, you might hear footsteps running through an open meadow
(chorus)
Don’t be concerned, it will not harm you
It’s only me pursuing something I’m not sure of
Across my dreams, with nets of wonder
I chase the bright elusive butterfly of love
My name is not worth knowing, it’s enough to know I’m just a willing slave to something free
You might have seen me once or twice between the walls of grown-up tears and children’s laughter
You might have seen me running through the long abandoned ruins of someone you used to be
And if you’ve felt the brief caress of wings that fluttered past with something running after
(chorus)
You might have heard my footsteps echo softly in the distance through the canyons of your mind
I might have even called your name as I ran searching after something to believe in
Though it’s too late for changing, someday you might look back exploring times you left behind
If you remember something there that glided past you followed close by heavy breathing
(chorus)
The morning sun is nodding to the prisoner underneath whose restless questions are his bars
And all the clouds between the two look down bewildered as to what he blindly follows
You might have stood in silence, and heard symphonies of wandering and wondered whose they are
They’re compositions of a madman trying hard to fill the part of him that’s hollow
(chorus)
The open eyes of evening watch the penny-ante festival of fools below the moon
The clumsy joker tries in vain to catch the prize before a thousand laughing princes
The night gives way to morning, and returns to bring the darkness on the heels of afternoon
But if the night should bring the feeling of a distant game of tag upon your senses…
(chorus)
I’ve always liked the song but I only learned about the full version of it less than 10 years ago. When I heard it then, I was in a far different place.
A few verses certainly could apply to LO #2 but I wouldn’t bet that they do. After all this time, I’d be surprised if she could still spell my name.
And, I caught the butterfly.
Wow, the song is going to blow my mind to a different plain —
“It’s only me pursuing something I’m not sure of
Across my dreams, with nets of wonder
I chase the bright elusive butterfly of love”
Captures my LE so much…
Thank you so much for posting it here for me! 🙏 (two verse orders are reversed based on the singing)
Snow,
I thought that you’d like it.
I copied the lyrics from a site. I didn’t catch they got two verses out of order.
There are a lot of songs out there that relate to limerence but this one is different.
LE,
I had a fabulous dream last night in which I was a some kind of leader busy going around inside a huge women’s camp/facility listening to their life stories and hardship…
I can not remember all details except one: a group of young peachy faced prostitutes, suddenly in front of my eyes, transformed into very old, wrinkle faced old (Japanese?) ladies all in dark grayish clothing in front of a bunch of vanity mirrors, huddled together sadly looking at me … I felt my heart tightened…. I lingered in that chamber longer trying to comforting them….but can not remember what I said…
Upon waking up, I felt such a peace in my neural system, and heart, so long missed….
I couldn’t help but feel strongly now that the Lind’s song you posted for me did something to me in my Unconscious last night… it was the last thing in my waking conscious.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family!
Thank you, Snow!
I hope the feeling continues.
I wonder what Lind was thinking when he wrote it. People just don’t come up with stuff like that.
Kind of like Leonard Cohen’s “Hallelujah.”
Songs like those are on a different plane if you can relate to them.
LE,
Totally agree with you about such jewel songs, yet it’s so reliable to my own soul-chewing journey…
I’ll try my might to continue my slight delight… 👻
Happy 🦃!
LE,
Just a little report: the dream effect continues, I feel so settled and “joyful” inside with zero new, external happened to me.
I heard, not sure if it’s Jungian theory, that if one’s mantle/behavior could take place in dreams — in one’s Unconscious, then effects would be many times more powerful than in reality. I dismissed or doubted it, but ever since 7/7 spa dream, I’ve wondered if such a theory has a lot of truth.
I have, along with my close classmates, remembered so many of my dreams (I liked telling them those vivid plots and scenes), majority of which were nightmares in which I was either trying to running away from being caught by cultural/fictional enemies or from imminent death. The primary atmosphere/theme was always extreme anxiety and fear (like encountering 3 tigers three nights ago). Peachy dreams were so rare in my whole life that once in a blue moon when I was powerful like an empathetic/healing leader or magical like a magician in my dreams, the realistic me went through a kind of psychological or spiritual metamorphosis. If I were religious, I would have believed that a God had visited in my slumbers! (I know and define myself Spiritual, not religious at all! )
During my latest/only LE, despite all the barriers and dark elements, I had much more detailed, sweet dreams (more than the previous, positive ones added up together), in which ET, ironically the most unavailable LO, fulfilled my exact unmet wishes/needs from my parents or previous romances.
Because they occurred in the Unconscious, my psyche believed and accepted them, thus the healing effects of those dreams, originated and drawn from my imagination or perhaps LE reverie — I helplessly imagined that if the barrier were absent, those dreams could/would become realistic. Of course, intellectually I know 120% those dreams narratives never occurred in reality, but to my psyche, they DID!
Now in the post LE, the old memories, new songs and poems continue bringing me to those unimaginable dreaming world to meet my “true” psychological enemies or undergo some kind of mental/spiritual metamorphosis, helping my SELF become more Stoic — spiritually and psychologically rely on my evolving SELF, while naturally feeling more willing and ready (meaning others’ negative situations would less or not trigger me anymore) to be of a help to others, should they need any.
Just some passing thoughts for the chilly and rainy evening at 🏡 ☺️
Elusive Butterfly
Bob Lind
You might wake up some morning
To the sound of something moving past your window in the wind
And if you’re quick enough to rise, you’ll catch the fleeting glimpse of someone’s fading shadow
Out on the new horizon, you may see the floating motion of a distant pair of wings
And if the sleep has left your ears, you might hear footsteps running through an open meadow
(chorus) 🎶 —
Don’t be concerned, it will not harm you
It’s only me pursuing something I’m not sure of
Across my dreams, with nets of wonder
I chase the bright elusive butterfly of love
You might have heard my footsteps echo softly in the distance through the canyons of your mind
I might have even called your name as I ran searching after something to believe in
Though it’s too late for changing, someday you might look back exploring times you left behind
If you remember something there that glided past you followed close by heavy breathing
(chorus) 🎶 —
My name is not worth knowing, it’s enough to know I’m just a willing slave to something free
You might have seen me once or twice between the walls of grown-up tears and children’s laughter
You might have seen me running through the long abandoned ruins of someone you used to be
And if you’ve felt the brief caress of wings that fluttered past with something running after
(chorus) 🎶 —
The morning sun is nodding to the prisoner underneath whose restless questions are his bars
And all the clouds between the two look down bewildered as to what he blindly follows
You might have stood in silence, and heard symphonies of wandering and wondered whose they are
They’re compositions of a madman trying hard to fill the part of him that’s hollow
(chorus) 🎶 —
The open eyes of evening watch the penny-ante festival of fools below the moon
The clumsy joker tries in vain to catch the prize before a thousand laughing princes
The night gives way to morning, and returns to bring the darkness on the heels of afternoon
But if the night should bring the feeling of a distant game of tag upon your senses…
Don’t be concerned, it will not harm you
It’s only me pursuing something I’m not sure of
Across my dreams, with nets of wonder
I chase the bright elusive butterfly of love
I chase the bright elusive butterfly of love.
*****
“The morning sun is nodding to the prisoner underneath whose restless questions are his bars
And all the clouds between the two look down bewildered as to what he blindly follows
You might have stood in silence, and heard symphonies of wandering and wondered whose they are
They’re compositions of a madman trying hard to fill the part of him that’s hollow“
🚪⛓️🎼🐦🔥🎶🪟
Once I caught such a butterfly 🦋 , but she flew through the unknown hollow part in my Self .…
Now, I’ve finally repaired the hole and is letting the imprisoned epic symphonie fly out of the unmarried door 🚪 and unlocked window… 🪟
🐦🔥
As if some little Arctic flower
Emily Dickinson
As if some little Arctic flower,
Upon the polar hem,
Went wandering down the latitudes,
Until it puzzled came
To continents of summer,
To firmaments of sun,
To strange, bright crowds of flowers,
And birds of foreign tongue!
I say, as if this little flower
To Eden wandered in —
What then? Why, nothing, only,
Your inference therefrom!
*****
She is then sprinkled with kissing of bumble bees 🐝 and egging of elusive butterflies 🦋
🐦🔥
Hello LaR. Thanks for your advise, I really appreciate it.
The perceived “hot” and “cold” interactions keep us hooked to LO, right? It sure was true for me.
In the past, the so called cold interaction used to have a negative effect on me, and I used to just take it without offering resistance.
From now onwards, when my mind/inner voice starts to get all negative post a cold interaction, I will counter it by saying that there is no need to worry, and to look at the big picture, that we will get another chance to catch up, it will happen naturally. And that I have not done anything to annoy LO, she has a life too. So, just take it easy.
I will let you know how it goes, but it does sound like a promising approach. Cheers.
Hi LaR. I forgot to add, thanks for the hot n’ cold drink!
ABCD,
How you put that sounds roughly what I was thinking.
I am always conscious of a couple of things when I start suggesting things to others. 1. I have unavoidable LO contact several days a week, 2. I am entrenched in this camp: “LO was my long term friend before LE and I want/believe she can be that after LE too”.
This set of circumstances means my advice goes against the textbook, which would say LC or NC is usually the quickest way to get over limeremce. That could well be better for you, but you’ll know yourself best.
It helps me to ‘live with’ limerence more than ‘push out’ limerence – my mood is OK, the hot-cold cycles are less. The feelings remain but my ability to handle them and ‘act normal’ is improved.
“The perceived “hot” and “cold” interactions keep us hooked to LO, right?”
Interesting question that I can only half answer. Yes, they do. So now if my interactions feel less hot and cold, is that the start of me ‘unhooking’? I don’t know, as it is quite early in the stage where I stopped telling myself the hot and cold stories. I got there for a while, slipped back, and then now seem to have regained it.
I do best when the contact frequency is fairly regular but the time period on each occasion is not excessive – then it’s like I can get the dopamine at a lower, more consistent and safe level. If I am deprived of any contact or deprive myself, I get big lows. If I allow too much contact, I get highs which then are followed by lows. It is like trying to calibrate a spirit level at exactly the right point. And much of it I can’t control.
I also don’t have the added complication that you do of open SO/LO lines of communication. I’ll be honest – I don’t think I could have stayed as close to my LO as I have, if that was the case.
Hi LaR:
It looks like I will need to adopt a ‘live with limerence’ approach, because, although contact has reduced, it will not be zero. So, the trigger will be there to exert itself, from time to time. Navigating this as best as possible (still trying to figure how to do this), whenever it occurs, is what is the aim.
“I also don’t have the added complication that you do of open SO/LO lines of communication. I’ll be honest – I don’t think I could have stayed as close to my LO as I have, if that was the case”.
This is good for me, as it keeps a barrier. I feel LO feels the same way too.
Yes, like you said, the idea is to flatten out both the high and low curves.
Hello Phoenix. Thanks for your wishes. I am doing better now.
When I feel low, I like to take short walks, these really help.
Looking forward to the weekend! Great weather out, so time for some exercise!
Hi Mila. Thanks for sharing your update. I was wondering how your work with LO was going.
You are doing really really well. I can’t handle 1 LO interaction, it sets me back a couple of steps, before I can move forward again.
I get your feelings towards LO. Sometimes, we just have conflicting and complicated emotions towards LO. In past events, when LO has been in proximity, and we have ended up not talking, I have felt low. If LO has attended, but not been proximity, those have gone much better. If LO has not attended, those have gone the best.
Does your SO know that your LO is your LO? Please feel free to ignore this question.
Just tell yourself the week will very soon be over, you are almost at the finishing line. I am sure you will come out stronger from this experience.
Have a good weekend. I can offer you a “hot and cold” drink 🙂
Hi ABCD,
(and LaR since you had a similar topic)
I think my SO suspects a bit that he is or was my LO, but even more that I am my LO‘s LO (he didn’t say that, but that’s my guess). I think he suspected the last LO more. With both he has developed a bit of an aversion or likes them less over time (judging from remarks), and I think it’s because he sensed something, but he would never call me out on it or want me to not be friends with them. I think he basically trusts me not to cheat on him and love him always more (which is true).
But maybe that’s only my guess and not true.
He said once that he was wary about my LO at the beginning of our friendship, but back then I could reply honestly that there was nothing to worry about. Limerence developed only later.
ABCD,
my problem is maybe a bit different from yours since at the moment it’s me who is colder, but I don’t want to be, or I want to keep that friendship, but at the moment feel not able to be warmer, which kind of hurts me (and probably him too). Better today, but still strange.
Make mine a hot drink, please…
Trifles,
(Before I start, I want to thank the Amoor 🐄 Inn patrons for looking after Trifles so well today. As a measure of thanks, drinks are on the house all weekend if you can peel yourself away from the welder long enough).
I truly understand your frustration Trifles. I am here to offer the token male perspective. Take it or leave it obviously.
First, I think there is a ton of denial on his side about things between him and his SO. He will only get over that in his own time, frustrating as that is. And I get that.
There is often more to things than it seems. Part of me would dearly love to step over lines with LO. A larger part of me knows that doing that would really harm all of me, LO and SO. To avoid stepping over any big lines, I have to not step over any small lines. The genie can’t be let out of the bottle. So I can’t let the lid come off. If it did, I don’t know what it would happen
next.
Why am I telling you this? Because I want you to know that when he says “we can’t meet up”, he doesn’t mean “I don’t want to meet up”. It means “if we meet up, I let the genie out of the bottle and then who knows what I can’t control”. He’d rather not face that.
We pigeonhole people. A text relationship feels safe to him. Anything more doesn’t.
The point is you are ahead of the game in realising what his SO’s actions mean. He is still in denial.
What does it say about you??Nothing, Trifles. It says everything about him.
As you saw, Snow held me to account lately as someone in (sort of) your TO’s position about how it may feel to someone like my LO (?in your position?). I took that very seriously. I’d do anything not to hurt LO but it’s hard. All I can say is I try so hard to be consistent.
Your TO knows that if he came and met you, he wouldn’t or mighn’t be able to resist temptation. All this against a backdrop of his denial about his marriage. You see that, he maybe doesn’t.
Keep talking to us.
Putting a few bottles under the Inn Fatuation bar for you all for the weekend. If the welder don’t tell, I will never know.
❄️
After my very delayed sermon, she needs a good 🍸
I will leave that in your extremely capable hands.
Trifles,
The midnight drink 🍹 for you here:
2oz, vodka
2oz, blackberry/boysenberry
2oz, kiwi 🥝 /passion fruit
2oz, mango🥭 juice
Some fresh 🍒
Take 2 or 3 piece of French macaron.
*****
While sipping your 🍹 , just ponder a little bit over how you could gradually SELF-validate more while sympathizing/validating your long-term TO, who sounds quite lost in his “messy” life. Remember what LaR said, he has a much more serious problems, which you could only sideline comfort him, but NEVER fundamentally solve them for him — it’s challenging enough to keep your own neck above your shared water….
From my own Eastern point of view, if one really wants to give something to one’s close friend and thus to feel content/happy about it, one cannot and TRULY NOT expect/silently desire “ANYTHING” in return (easy said than done). Otherwise, one is setting oneself for disappointment and emotional/mental pains. If one relies on another, LO/TO/close friend, for verbal or behavioral validation, one can never grow strong enough to stand on one’s own (mental/emotional) feet.
I’ve been practicing myself to soar on my own growing 🪽s as you all have been witnessing…. 🐦🔥
Have a sound slumber!
„ What does it say about you??Nothing, Trifles. It says everything about him.“
This, and this
„ if one really wants to give something to one’s close friend and thus to feel content/happy about it, one cannot and TRULY NOT expect/silently desire “ANYTHING” in return (easy said than done). Otherwise, one is setting oneself for disappointment and emotional/mental pains.“
although seemingly a bit contradictory, are what I took from your posts for myself today, thank you LaR and Snow, although it wasn’t meant for me, it fits very well.
I made the same mistake as always and expected something, but this time I really got it that he is a very limited person and that I cannot expect any honest communication. It’s not about limerence here anymore, it’s about friendship. I think it’s not possible to be close friends with him any more. Friends, yes, maybe.
We had a short altercation per text yesterday evening and now please hold your thumbs that I manage to be kind and nice today since I don’t want to show any weakness or personal stuff to him anymore.
Mila, I highlighted exactly the same takeaways! Thank you LaR and Snow.
I think it’s natural to fall back on our expectations. But people then give us reality checks to adjust those expectations. I’m sure it was nothing too bad via text. We are humans with our personal stuff and feelings.
Hi Trifles and LaR,
well, it was bad though 🙈
in a way. Might have finished the friendship as it was.
„We are humans with our personal stuff and feelings“
He‘s not, or he doesn’t want me to be, or both.
We had a nice evening at my place with my SO, LO was finally relaxed and I let down my guard and just made the same mistake I already make with him, I assume he‘s someone he‘s not. He texted nicely with thank you for evening and company, on which I replied nicely and added something personal- nothing exciting or limerent, actually something normal not even for a close friendship, but definitely going on a personal level after all the stilted days before. You all would laugh in disbelief if you read the following text exchange, if it wouldn’t be sad.
I don’t know literally anyone who would be like that. This morning before work when I read his last reply , I just wrote him that it’s all my mistake for forgetting that he cannot or doesn’t want to talk about anything emotional or personal, and that we just leave it be and see you in a minute.
Of course I didn’t manage to be kind or warm, I said good morning and that was it, and left early. But I just don’t feel like it. I really believe that it IS my mistake in always assuming or expecting something that simply isn’t there.
There’s another thing to go through today and then he‘ll be off, thank God.
Yes, I learned a lot, and i actually think it was a very good thing that he was here and showed his face/hand (?) so plainly, I think this time it really hit home and I might be able to finally get a real closure.
LAR, you cannot really take this as a model. I think types like my LO are hard to find , with any normally wired person things would be different, as they surely are with your LO.
You could keep in mind though, that we limerents tend to assign character traits and shine to our LOs that might not withstand reality.
I want to add that I just checked the text exchange from yesterday/today again, and I think I was really ok. I wrote in a fury but seem to have controlled myself pretty well, the texts are not over the top aggressive, not blaming, couldn’t have written them better in a calmer mood.
So, something to feel content with, I expressed myself ok, and now nothing more to do for me (in earlier times, I wished I said it differently, had the urge to express myself again etc, which made me restless and regretful).
At the upcoming event today where we‘ll meet I’ll talk to my younger colleague friend who wants to tell me some personal stuff (there ARE people who want to talk about personal stuff..), so I won’t have much time for him, tomorrow he‘ll be gone. This really was a hard week for me, really. I hope it pays off and I’ll have peace of mind now.
Mila,
I feel like you have learned stuff this week. The emoji you need is 💪💪💪
Stay strong (and NC) for the weekend.
You never asked for this responsibility, but if I ever had to nominate a role model on LwL for my lofty “lose limerence, keep the MFF” ambition, it has been you, and how it progresses with xLO. It is saddening for that reason to hear where it’s going. That said, I do really understand. You have carried a heavy load for making a friendship work with someone who does not communicate ‘like you or I do’. While you were limerent you could do that. Now you’re not, you can’t and shouldn’t have to. Like Trifles’ situation, it is not OK for these men just to use you ladies for side validation.
If I ‘used’ my MFF in this way, I can say without question that she (an assertive person with no time for time wasting) would throw me shade until I changed my behaviour.
There is something really odd from this distant place of observation, about how he clings onto his old job that he has now left, too.
Well done for the realisations you have come to, even though I am sure the process has been painful.
Hi LaR,
I think he doesn’t consciously just use me for validation. I do think he cares as much for me as he can care for anyone, and he values our friendship very high.
It’s just me who cannot value it like it is, because for me, friendship is obviously something else than it is for him.
All,
„ if one really wants to give something to one’s close friend and thus to feel content/happy about it, one cannot and TRULY NOT expect/silently desire “ANYTHING” in return (easy said than done). Otherwise, one is setting oneself for disappointment and emotional/mental pains.“
I get this in a sense of ‘if I buy my friend lunch today, I shouldn’t do it expecting that they will buy me lunch tomorrow’. But I think if we get into a friendship and everything is one way, that would sound the 📣📣📣 . I have harboured too many such friendships in my life – not so much now. Mentionitis alert, but even if I remove the limerence glasses, this is why I like MFF so much as a friend – it is beautifully mutual and I get as much back as I give. Not if I ask for it, just more naturally. So I get the principle of what you’re saying, Snow, but couldn’t adopting that approach leave the person with lots of friends who drain the mental bucket, instead of filling it up or at least holding the level steady?
Woke up earlier due to a small (but significant?) nightmare caused by my curiosity —
I went to a men’s only dorm on the 3rd or 4th floor. The hallway was wide, but dark, damp, and empty. Near the stairway, I came across a small cockroach and stepped it to death. I was curious to see what a men’s dorm would be like and intended to walk a square circle through and then leave from the same stairway (I lived briefly in a similar dorm in COO).
A tall Western man (from a Netflix show) came out of his room facing the stairway. He friendly warned me with a smile, “It’s dark (and dangerous?). Nothing much to see.” I think I said, “I’m not afraid”. So I continued alone, turning right.
Just walking down a few meters, I saw another small cockroach but did not pay attention. But it suddenly jumped up and stung on the back of my neck, trying to waggle in. WOW, it hurts! I didn’t know the cockroach could jump high and sting so painfully! I was furious, cursed, angrily pulled its sharp body out of my neck and stepped it to death!
Then, I woke up in darkness, pissed off a little. (A lot to be interpreted by those images!)
*****
LaR,
I said “to give something to one’s close friend”…. If someone does not “naturally/mutually” return your generosity in return (with equivalent amount, style or spirit), can he or she still be called or treated as your “close friend”?
I also said in the past, 3 times is trying amount (I grew up with such “ritual”) whether one can be a potential, trustworthy, close friend. After that, if you (collective) continue giving to someone who just takes and takes, then you can be classified as a masochist, IMO.
This is largely applied in tangible material giving. In mental/emotional support, besides therapists or priests, I wonder if one can always give without expecting getting back similar support, in quality or quantity. What happens or should take place if this “close friend” is not equipped with our kind of mindset or emotional style/intelligence or due to some morality restriction, e.g Mila’s MFF or Trifles’ TO?
In LE, limerents surely give the way too much time and energy to LO, externally or internally with an astronomical hope to be reciprocated; the pair-bonding desire dictates our behaviors, regardless LO’s quality. But friendship is different. I never got upset when my good friends visiting the town on business trip but occasionally could not squeeze their busy time to get together with me, which they would not do all the time. If I visit their town, I always reserve time in advance to see them.
Trifles,
“I highlighted exactly the same takeaways!”
The saloon does takeaways?! I guess that’s one way to steer clear of (ma)lingering welders.
Mila,
You’d never know who were on my mind when I posted my views to a specific LwLer. 😋
I guessed so a bit;)
But cannot agree for real
life. I wouldn’t call it a close friendship if there‘s no basis of mutual connection on a certain level. Completely selfless loving without any expectations, that’s for the enlightened spirits, but not for me, maybe with the exception of my kids.
Still, I try to only blame myself for my expectations since it’s the sensible way to go.
Mila,
“I wouldn’t call it a close friendship if there‘s no basis of mutual connection on a certain level.”
Me, neither! Especially in mental and emotional capacity domain.
“Completely selfless loving without any expectations, that’s for the enlightened spirits, but not for me, maybe with the exception of my kids.”
There is so such a thing as “selfless” love; without SELF, what does one love with? Empty words and robotic loving actions? I believer, a mother needs a strong sense of Self and of what to give or reserve while raising healthy kids.
To elaborate a bit of notion in my “giving” in present days (unfortunately not in the past when I was an introvert, anxious people/dates/bf/LO pleaser) — to check whether such a “giving” would FIRST bring instant pleasure or lasting joy to my psyche, regardless what other side(s) would do. e.g. a half of my posting here are “monologues” in nature.
If my casual or intended ramblings get some responses — nice plus ✅; if none – non-upsetting ; if disagreeable — a stimuli to (re)search what had triggered inside me. The GAIN to me lies on active writing/posting itself — self-examining and reflecting, renewing an old or creating a new part of my trivial life. (No idea how many or few are actually reading — I don’t read every other posts, but 3 or 4 times of my own).
That’s what I call “giving/doing” without expecting from other side(s) or Self-validating (my exposed self). This process fearfully began in 2018 Fall, and progressed so beneficially since 7/7 right after COO trip.
To me with experiences, what brings terrible mental/emotional pains in life or in LE, with or without humanistic reasons, is trying to unwisely CONTROL UNCONTROLLABLE, and NOT trying to wisely EXPECT UNEXPECTED (worsts). Natural or neutered desires could be dealt and lived with peace, even when they are unmet/unfulfilled.
I’m glad to hear that you’re feeling better today.
Type: “There is No such a thing as “selfless” love.”
“Natural or neutered desires could be dealt and lived with IN peace”
Thank you LaR -Snow was right, you do have just the words I need! I think you are right about everything. I just needed someone to remind me, because my position is not always easy. Thanks for taking the time out of your double shift (day job and bar shift) to reply. 😉
Snow, thank you for the cocktail made with ❤️. I think I understand where you are coming from, especially with you having had similar experiences. I have actually expressed my frustration to TO and he apologized but stood firm. Like LaR said, those are just his boundaries. I do understand – family is priority number one and he has to do what he feels is best for his family, even if it sounds ridiculous to me/you. (Before reading LaR’s reply I was going to write that I’m sure that to someone else, his reasoning sounds perfectly just, and even noble. And what LaR said supports that.)
I think he might be confused about a lot of things, but he will have to come to his own realisations.
LaR, yes of course you can get takeaway! Sometimes I need my morning smoothie (with either a side of kick-a$$ or puns depending on who’s on bar duty) to go.
“Before reading LaR’s reply I was going to write that I’m sure that to someone else, his reasoning sounds perfectly just, and even noble. And what LaR said supports that.”
Yes, but only logical *to his mind*. Whether it is a reasonable thing to expect of you, or whether you choose to shift the boundaries now to create a different expectation, that is another thing. It doesn’t read reasonable if I take your point of view. I don’t know if that came across well in my reply after the double shift (plus added bonus heavy level and depth of LO interaction in the day 🤪)
LaR,
With your reasoning and analogy— you as Trifles’TO, she your LO, what would you do if you were on this trip? Would you have a cup of coffee in public and then keep carrying an online EA with her?
My curiosity never stops… 🤔
Snow, ha ha, LaR and I are already carrying on an online EA, didn’t you know? (Actually, I think you’ve been the one who has been insinuating it…)
Now about that coffee, LaR?
Well, your TO knows your physique, bit LaR does not. He has his MFF messing his head almost daily at work, and SO at home. 😉
EA without a physical Glimmer maybe possible, but not LE, IMO. I didn’t insinuate anything , at one point, you asked LaR to pretend you as his LO. 😁
“…at one point, you asked LaR to pretend you as his LO.” Ha, I didn’t remember that, but now it does sound vaguely familiar… It must have been for a very valid scientific experiment. 👍
If it were that easy to transfer limerence, I would be rich!
“He has his MFF messing his head almost daily at work, and SO at home.”
With that and the sheep herding + bar tending, no wonder he’s exhausted!
That’s why he stored away his heavy duty ploughing machine, which he I tended to cover with the patented ❄️ blanket, forgetting it is attached with the 🔥 bird…
Trifles,
LwL as a transference LO could hardly work for a while anyone, IMO, unless you can prove it otherwise to DrL.
But using LwL as a “Therapy room” with brave, limited emotional/mental disclosure might work for some ghosts.
Heavy duty ploughing machine? Gosh.
Mila, the owner’s self-description, not mine… ☺️
Snow,
If Trifles wanted to sup coffee with me (arguably she’d have to be mad, look at the fate of the last poor woman who did that), then as a gentleman, how
could I possibly refuse? Trifles, it’s a date 😉
Anyway – what are you all talking about me for on my weekend off? There’s a hungry welder sat on his own in the corner booth, wanting to use his blowtorch.
LaR,
“If Trifles wanted to sup coffee with me (arguably she’d have to be mad, look at the fate of the last poor woman who did that), then as a gentleman, how could I possibly refuse? Trifles, it’s a date 😉”
If you behave like Trifles’ TO, I will certainly 🫡 LaR 🧠 🔨❗️
Who was this “last poor woman” who “sup coffee” with you❓in LwL?
The lonely 🧑🏭 in the booth of our Saloon? 🗣️ Adam 🗣️ Limerent Emeritus! 📣 Amoor Inn needs your presence and protection…
Snow,
Don’t worry, there is no skeleton under the floor of the LwL coffeehouse. When I said about the fate of the last woman who supped coffee with me, it was a poorly done joke about my real life LO.
In Trifles’ TO’s position I wouldn’t meet for coffee if the wife and kids are around (though from what she tells us, he is deluding himself about his wife). To change the dynamic of a relationship that has been text based into anything else would take some time and investment. For that reason I’d say that if he wants to meet her it would be separate from the family thing. But I have no idea what level of geographical distance they have between them and if that could be possible.
LaR,
What a relief to know there is no Skelton hidden in LwL coffeehouse. Is our welder 👩🏭 still breathing somewhere? LE’s responsible for his appearance.
Trifles said that she knows TO for a long time and also his SO before their marriage. So it sounds cold/inhuman to me to refuse a cup of coffee as emotional intimate “friends” of day-n-night confidants. How many opportunities of such possible coffee taking in their geographical distance?
TO is mot only delusional, coward, but also relies on/uses Trifles for validation/rebounding bag; then can’t even appreciate her valuable friendship via a cup of coffee in public. I feel pain for her now…
On subway to work a full day, sorry about any typo.. .
No word of the welder today.
And Bewitched has gone a bit quiet.
Coincidence? 🤔
Hey LaR,
Haha. Not a coincidence. I have been keeping tabs on everything, including all mentions of my welder. He is getting an awful time from you lot!
Rather than torrid goings on, I have jyst been feeling relieved for Mila. I thought she might have been left a bit bereft after saying goodbye, she is actually relieved. Phew!
More of this freedom in her future, I hope.
I am doing pretty well myself, althpigh musing on how come I am still so fond of my MFF, without giving much thought to him. Its interesting. I wonder how its going to play out from here🤔.
Christmas is always a massive trigger for me, for a few reasons.
Nothing is coincidental in life on or off line…
Now, Sunday drinks and Mila’s joyful bakes are on house, while 🧑🏭 is smoothing with Bewiteched…
Smoothing or smooching?
Here might be the reason why Bewitched is so calm with her MFF, she‘s got distracting handymen at her beck and call.
Snow and LaR, you’re having an interesting conversation! Mind if I join in? 😉 To clarify, he hasn’t planned to be in my town exactly. We would still have to go out of our way to meet. And it’s not for quite some time. I will wait to see how this shakes out. Who knows, we might have lost touch by then, his situation might be different OR he might perceive the situation differently at that point. Like we determined, he has a lot of things on his mind at the moment, his whole life could be falling apart.
And as such, I don’t think he would recognize himself in Snow’s description (“delusional, coward, but also relies on/uses Trifles for validation/rebound”). …Or I don’t know, maybe he has more humility than most! 😉 Sure, he could see me as a “fantasy escape” from the state of his life right now, but if it doesn’t bother me too much…
I do understand that you see this one behavior as being very telling and negating anything else nice that he does. And that’s fine. In any case, I can have different kinds of friends, some only at a distance. If the dynamic starts to annoy me too much, I reserve the right to step back a little.
PS. Bewitched, give us back our welder! He was just getting the hang of preparing those flaming Zombies (it’s a drink)!
Bewitched,
„I thought she might have been left a bit bereft after saying goodbye, she is actually relieved. Phew!“
Not bereft, I even feel that I gained something. There might come a need to grieve about this friend I lost that I never had , so to say, but at the moment I feel nothing of that sort. I even think it’s possible for me to be fond of him again, like you, after I have digested the whole truth.
Maybe you just weren’t in the need of once again being shown what your LO isn’t, you just left that step out and progressed to feeling fond but not dependent.
I am pleased to receive news that the welder is learning how to pour you some decent drinks, as well as his more dubious activities this weekend. I had been a bit worried about leaving the bar in his hands, tbh. But what with that and Mila’s lim-free biscuits, it sounds like you’re all having a jolly old time.
Trifles, I may write more on this later, but I don’t share Snow’s assessment of your TO’s character or of your role in it. Snow, I totally respect you feel different. Most of what I feel can be found in my original (late Friday) reply to Trifles.
Trifles, as much as an internet 👻 can reasonably do (even one apparently in an EA with you 🤪), I trust you know what you’re doing and that if it became more harm than good to you, you’d step back/away from TO.
Now go get that welder back off Bewitched and demand another round all of you!
LaR, no need to reiterate your stance re: TO. I think I understood your point of view. Unless you want to debate it on a more abstract/issue level with Snow. I’m fine with that!
PS. Sorry about the small fire at the Inn over the weekend. Chalk it up to product development (that torch was a bit big for the precise work required for the Zombies).
PPS. “welder back off Bewitched” or to “back off of…”
Trifles,
I don’t have much time right now to reply in a thorough fashion but want to tell my impression towards your situation.
1. I don’t know the history and depth of your friendship with TO. I’m not quite clearly what or how you benefit from it.
2. You speak or consider for him or his unstable situation a bit too much, which put you in a passive, not in control situation for your mindset, moods, or actions.
3. If you’re happy or enjoy whatever is going on without feeling hurt, then go ahead. But thats not what you described or expresses here.
4. I have been through the similar situation with LO5, who even confessed that men’s selfishness or “darkness” can be beyond our (women) imagination.
I’m Stoic. So When unknown is involved, my mind goes to the possible worsts in any scenarios and prepares for them. It doesn’t mean they will happen, but anything, bright or dark, is possible. To protect oneself, what needs to be done?
This is to answer LaR, as well, who tends to see more positive light in men like himself. “Delusions”is the assessment you used for TO.
At this point, I reserve my views.
Mila, Bewitched corrected my spelling, its smooching 💋💋💋
Got to run!
Mila,
You have a way with words: “feeling fond but not dependent”. Yes, this is it, exactly.
I always thought he brought out my softer side and this is another example, so perhaps I am more dependent than I think. Lets see what Christmas brings. I can hardly keep my mind on him, even when I try these days. But i have a soft spot for him still, so lets see, if he wanted to, he could probably start all of this up again, to some degree. So I need to stay away from him. But he is a loyal husband. Maybe a bit like your LO1? And I am loyal too, so I feel safe in that knowledge.
Mila, I feel your relief in your recent posts, not so much from the very first one today, which got my kind working and worrying a little bit, but the other posts since then show how the weight has lifted. I am super happy for you. I remember when I had my first taste of proper freedom, probably this Summer (after being at his home and deciding it was over once and for all).
Mila, I hope you continue to enjoy you new-found freedom. A limerence free cocktail at last! What joys are in store to replace the whirling thoughts with others, that are more productive for your wellbeing….!🏅🎊✨️
Wait – Trifles you’re saying there is a fire in the inn and there are zombies in residence there?
How has a weekend of annual leave degenerated into Shaun of the Dead??
Snow,
I am not necessarily positive about TO, I am just conscious I only know limited facts about the case and that the guy sounds like he has a lot of conflicting things going on. If ‘delusions’ or ‘deluding’ was my word, I meant delusions about his marriage. His wife has checked out but he won’t face it. T has told us a few times that things between her and TO are a fairly two-way street and that as things stand she doesn’t want to exit the situation. So I don’t think anyone is delusional about that aspect, but about the marital aspect. Not having kids myself, I have no clue what it must feel like to exit a marriage when there are kids involved, but I imagine it creates a complete emotional hailstorm.
LaR, no no, the Flaming Zombie is a drink! It has four different kinds of rum, I think you’d like it. The alcohol just needs to be set on fire. Turns out the welder’s equipment worked a little too well for the task.
But no big deal, I’m sure you’d had time to get insurance for the Inn, right?
Thank God! I’ve only been open a week and the insurance paperwork looks suspect.
I thought I was going to have a hire a whole load more tradespeople for a while there to repair the damage / spread the lurve around.
Snow,
I know you only get a jumbled version of events based on what I feel like sharing at that moment. And it may be hard to form an opinion based on that.
I can’t help but respond to:
1. It’s an old friend in need! I was able to help him, so I did. How I benefit: friendship, even if it is long distance. LaR got it right that it is a two-way street.
4. I sympathize with your experience with LO5! Sounds like someone I wouldn’t enjoy meeting.
Out of TO and I, I would say I am the more cynical one with the darker imagination.
If anything, I would like to be more naive. Quoting an anonymous wise man: “I’m a very naive person. I only assume the best of people. I know I take a conscious risk: it opens the door for good things to happen.”
Sounds like you’ve met some bad apples. I hope you meet a wonderful man who restores your faith in the opposite gender!
Hi Bewitched,
No, no need to worry for me, I’m in a very good place!
Even better since I just drank some mulled wine with a mutual friend and told him a bit about the last altercation with LO, and this was such a good talk. He completely knew what I was talking about and had similar experiences with LO, and agreed that it is not possible to have a close friendship in the normal sense, although he still likes him a lot (like me).
Thanks for your kind words! Maybe we are in the same place. If LO would suddenly act out of character and send something really nice or emotional, I would maybe, like you, get pulled back? But I know now for sure he won’t, because he‘s just not the person for it.
I hope your LO won’t fall out of character in the Christmas time, too.
„But he is a loyal husband. Maybe a bit like your LO1?“
LO1 wasn’t that loyal, to be honest. (Funny that you mention him, just after the mulled wine I met him on the street with his family, it’s maybe 30 min ago.)
I think LO2 was the most honest and loyal guy. And current or Ex-LO is very loyal, if not very loving.
*(I don’t know if „if not loving“ was the right expression. I meant even if he might not seem very loving or warm to her, loyal he is.)
Btw LaR, if you google Flaming Zombie recipe (not saying a seasoned bar tender such as yourself wouldn’t know it!), you get a site that says “The Flaming Zombie, as the name suggests, is not a cocktail to be trifled with…” Very apt!
Anyway, we only lost about half the counter and part of the back wall. Glad to hear you have insurance. Until it’s fixed there will be a slight draft – you might prepare to sell more of the hot beverages.
Trifles,
Ok, I admit I didn’t go into all this naively. I thought if I coralled a whole load of limerents together in a bar like sardines, I could expect some problems. But I thought they’d be more of the garden “tears at midnight” variety than zombie attacks, crazy pyromania and holes in walls.
We live and learn I guess.
We got this, anyway. SO is going to make a huge batch of mince pies. I’ll do a big vat of hot chocolate and another of mulled wine. I’ll bring up a load of building materials on the tractor left over from the barn conversion and we can crack on. The Amoors Inn will be right as rain by midweek.
I just learned something. The only meaning of Trifle I knew was the dessert. Now I find there are a load of other meanings to do with not taking things seriously etc. Which one inspired your LwL name?!
I really wish I picked a more interesting name, but it is too late now. I am etched into LwL history as LaR much too far to change now.
Happy Monday. Hopefully see you during the salvage operations.
Allow me to just leave this here. It goes with the informal theme of the day. There is a lot of sadness and bigger issues behind this song, as anyone who knows it or watches the video will see. The chorus though is also excellent when repurposed to limerence.
The Cranberries, Zombie (1994):
https://youtu.be/6Ejga4kJUts?feature=shared
Trifles,
“I know you only get a jumbled version of events based on what I feel like sharing at that moment. And it may be hard to form an opinion based on that.”
To be honest, I had/have little interests to analyze or form an opinion about anyone’s LO, good or bad; it’s futile to know who they are, even half accurately, with given limited facts, or full, subjective “facts” by biased limerents, particularly when they are in the throe of their LE.
I only “care” about them somewhat in how a LE relationship/friendship with them has made YOU feel/think/behave; except LaR’s LO, whose position I could relate to in my LE (minus one fact that I was not a friend with ET prior to it). The limited 2nd hand facts he provided made me urge him to be truly kind, not hurting her in any aspects. Your descriptions of TO portrays something else to me….
“1. It’s an old friend in need! I was able to help him, so I did.”
If indeed altruistic, then you would not feel frustrated or upset about his inability to meet you in person; giving your sincere friendship itself should be sufficient enough and even joyful. Please allow my one penny opinion here that echos yours: you can console his down spirit with your caring heart, but you, or anyone else, CANNOT help him out of the swamp. Paraphrasing you, he has to figure out how to get out of it by himself and how to LIVE his own life.
“How I benefit: friendship, even if it is long distance. LaR got it right that it is a two-way street.”
I begin to think that my definition of friendship differs greatly from yours and LaR’s. To me, this “friendship” looks mutually needy, codependent, and addictive — equivalent of a LE, regardless how you name it. Interactions, not names, define natures of any relations.
“I sympathize with your experience with LO5! Sounds like someone I wouldn’t enjoy meeting.”
Please do Not! you don’t even know half of my “LE5” facts. In my world, SYMPATHY does little to help if not enabling negative or weak feelings/thoughts. If someone falls, you don’t just say, “I’m sorry that you fell”, you’d try your might to help pull them up with your skills or whatever useful means, such as bitter herbs w/o sugar…
If I had more of my repressed SELF recognized and liberated back then, if I were more self-confident, self-validated, more spiritually/mentally independent, and if I sympathized less with LO5’s messy situations (remember I only had sympathy glimmer for LO5 from a dating app), I would not get hurt by his selfish behavior. It was exactly my naive giving hurt myself in the end and made me feel like an emotional masochist. We are still friends with all past let go without any bitterness.
“Out of TO and I, I would say I am the more cynical one with the darker imagination.”
Having a healthy dose of pessimism in dealing with unknown external world (including anyone else) does NOT mean being “cynical” or darkly imaginative. Stoic mind/skills are mental preparations for all POSSIBLE unexpected or the worsts, while making one’s best effort in anything one does. Stoic are NOT cynical at all, nor naively hopeful or wishful!
“If anything, I would like to be more naive. Quoting an anonymous wise man: “I’m a very naive person. I only assume the best of people. I know I take a conscious risk: it opens the door for good things to happen.”
This anonymous man’s view is just one possible bright possibility. Preparing for possible worst does not mean ASSUME anything in anyone or any situation, but considering and being mentally ready for all possibilities, while treating them kindly and intelligently. I hope you’ll have all your nice dreams actualized with your “naivety”. Please share with us when that happens.
“Sounds like you’ve met some bad apples. “
Without having tasted “bad apples”, how could one ever know what good apples are?
“I hope you meet a wonderful man who restores your faith in the opposite gender”
From which posts of mine you sense I have lost “faith in the opposite gender”? Do you deem I have some faith left in us women? Viewing the reality for what it was/is/possibly be means having lost faith in it? Having Stoic skills means having no faith in this 80% disappointing, imperfect world?
Best luck in your “friendship” with TO! 🫂
Snow,
☕️☕️
“I begin to think that my definition of friendship differs greatly from yours and LaR”
I think this is a bigger gulf than just to me or Trifles or both. This is an East-West cultural difference about friendship. I really want to understand it properly, as you view it, so I can know where you are coming from. When we debated the point I made about my MFF that you objected to, we agreed we’d probably be able to solve what the difference was in three / five minutes over coffee IRL. Since we don’t have that luxury (the knackered wall at the Amoors Inn prevents it), is there any way that you could try and articulate what this difference is in your characterisation of friendship, to what you think our Western one is? The difference has caused you to get triggered by me before, and possibly now by Trifles. We’d all really benefit from knowing.
“Please do Not! you don’t even know half of my “LE5” facts”
You’ve said in other places that you’re interested in our Western ‘conversation lubricating’ sensibilities. I think what Trifles has done when saying ‘I sympathise…’ is just try to introduce some of that “phatic” stuff to the conversation. That is a quite normal Western thing to say, even when we don’t have full facts. You seem to not like that she appears to have arrived at a position about something in your experience, based on having half facts about your LE5. But this is what we are *all* doing about each other’s LE’s, all the time. None of us has presented full facts. We are all working with half information all the time, but nonetheless reach our own conclusions. You have reached them about my LE, for example, based on the one sided half facts you have from me about it. What happened here is no different.
—
I know by even writing this, I open myself to the “LaR, why do you always defend Trifles?” line once again. Indeed, Trifles herself may even feel it and wish I kept quieter. However, as much as it is ever possible to ‘get’ anyone in the world of LwL, I would say that I ‘get’ Trifles, and vice versa. She (same for Mila) would step in to support me if the roles were reversed here. For some people, it is easier here to help other people out, than it is to say “look, I need a bit of a vent / a bit of help myself”. I’d say Trifles could be one of those people. It probably took quite a lot for her to put that extra information about her TO out there. Both selfishly and unselfishly, I want Trifles to stay here and find that LwL is a place she can find community and support for just as long as she needs it.
For me to get past that exchange with you about my MFF (remember, I am not Stoic like you) and get back to finding LwL a nice supportive place for me, I had to dig quite deep and forensically debate every point back and forth in a post that took me 4 or 5 hours to write, to. Trifles may not wish to do that. However, she has much to give the rest of us that make her one of my most highly valued LwL ‘ghost friends’.
I am going to butt out now and let Trifles talk for herself if she wishes to, like I probably should have done in the first place. I am not going to discuss her TE further, other than with her, unless she wants me to. Yesterday she said it was OK to do so in a post to me, but I’d now want to check on that again.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have a wall to rebuild.
☕️☕️☕️
OMG, what can I say? LaR, are you sure you’re not spying on me? You are right that it took a lot for me to (selfishly actually) share more about TO. You’re right that I enjoy others discussing my specific friends just as little as either of you do. But I’m fine, I did get some valuable insight from opening it up for discussion.
For example Snow’s comment on codependence – it’s one I’ve been watching out for and would like to steer away from (the old me at least! The new, naive me, I don’t know!). So it was actually good that you said it out loud (though not all would like to hear it).
Snow, I will just try to elaborate on one thing that you asked about. That part about faith in men came from “…LO5, who even confessed that men’s selfishness or “darkness” can be beyond our (women) imagination.” I don’t remember anything else that you have previously written about LO5. I only had that line. I made an assumption based on that and I’m sorry I commented on it. I would just like to say that I don’t want to think men are that bad, nor women or anyone else. It was not sarcasm – I really would like anyone to meet someone described as: “Be the reason someone believes in the goodness of people.” (Bianca Sparacino) It may sound corny, but it’s not a given, yet it should be! (See, I collect these quotes! Not saying I’m able to follow any of them.) You and I strive toward different life philosophies. I’m a (natural?) pessimist who strives to be an optimist – I’ve actually made big strides!
So LaR, thank you for that message. I think it’s better when you speak for me anyway. You’re much more eloquent (truly!). If I elaborate further we are back in EA territory. 😜 (And sorry to others for me joking around about that. Dark limerent humor…)
Whew, you win some, you lose some! LaR, don’t worry, I’ll only leave LwL when I find something better to do. 😉 Sammy said it best, as he often does – I’m the winner of the resilience award. Also the most intelligent award. (Or he said something to that effect! 🤣 – I’m kidding.) Cheers, Sammy!
Re: giving something to the LwL world (that sounds even more pompous than the intelligence award!), if I have anything to give – and it’s not even mine – it’s this. I know I’m repeating it: “I’m a very naive person. I only assume the best of people. I know I take a conscious risk: it opens the door for good things to happen.”
I’ll be out to help with that wall building in just a minute.
I think what might have happened here is always the problem with written word: we know exactly in which mood/meaning we write, but the recipient might underlay a different mood.
We are all different in expressing ourselves, different backgrounds and personalities.
For example, when someone writes in CAPITAL letters,me, I feel that they yell at me, while they only want to emphasize something.
In matters where I am sensitive I tend to overreact to seemingly smug sentences, but the other person doesn’t know me well and doesn’t know my sensitivities,or might have misinterpreted my own writing, and didn’t want to sound smug or patronizing at all.
I don’t always check how it might sound for other people because I just assume they recognize my mood or meaning, but I should probably.
So, as my kids say to each other, are we all friends again?;)
Although you might gang up on me because I ate all the limerent-free cookies myself.
Trifles thanks. I get where the ‘spying’ question comes from. No two people are the same and I am not trying
to imply it, but really I think it is mostly because I have studied the NTP playbook inside out and upside down as part of my investment into my LO 😬, that I have an antennae sometimes for where you’re at. I am not more articulate, just differently articulate. If the world was full of my character types, nothing would ever get done 😂
🧱🛠🧰
“If the world was full of my character types, nothing would ever get done 😂“
Can’t help second such an analysis….
“So, as my kids say to each other, are we all friends again?;)“
Are “friends” allowed to give tough love or bitter herbs without sugar?
If the house only serves Vanilla hot chocolate, limerence-enabling cookies, blind soothing smoothies, but no authentic, bitter coffee or straight whisky shot, I’ll quit my order-taking job in Amoor Inn.
“Naivete in grownups is often charming; but when coupled with vanity it is indistinguishable from stupidity.”
– Eric Hoffer —
“If the house only serves Vanilla hot chocolate, limerence-enabling cookies, blind soothing smoothies, but no authentic, bitter coffee or straight whisky shot, I’ll quit my order-taking job in Amoor Inn.”
The Amoors Inn needs you, Snow (especially if you have carpentry skills right now). It needs all the different flavours of drink you can dispense.
I can only speak for my own terms of engagement now, but I am quite willing and happy to listen to any point you wish to make towards or in response to me.
🧱🛠🧰🗜
The Last Word of a Bluebird
Robert Frost
1874 –1963
As I went out a Crow
In a low voice said, “Oh,
I was looking for you.
How do you do?
I just came to tell you
To tell Lesley (will you?)
That her little Bluebird
Wanted me to bring word
That the north wind last night
That made the stars bright
And made ice on the trough
Almost made him cough
His tail feathers off.
He just had to fly!
But he sent her Good-by,
And said to be good,
And wear her red hood,
And look for skunk tracks
In the snow with an ax—
And do everything!
And perhaps in the spring
He would come back and sing.”
******
Paraphrasing: you can’t point out a bright, hilly road to those who prefer not to see… you can’t wake up those who enjoy dreaming or being tipsy… you can’t pull out those who want to soak in their self-made sweet swamp….”
Each to its own chosen path… 🐦🔥
Trifles,
If your emotions can peacefully sit with your logic and defense for TO’s reasoning, then I guess it’s okay for you continue providing your selfless, gigantic validation to his current needs.
To me personally, it would NOT be fine! I will NOT continue such painful “mutual” validation. Does it make you more self-validated or uplift your spirit after 7 months or just superficially take away some of your loneliness/aloneness after xLO? Sorry about my directness.
I need to run for a morning tutoring. Later.
Such an interesting topic of discussion! Personally, I dislike politics. So I will stick to feelings of demoralisation inspired by friends not being crazy-supportive about one’s limerence.
Going from memory, when I was in the full swing of limerence, I didn’t want to believe what any naysayers had to say about my infatuation because (1) infatuation promises such a big reward and (2) I obviously didn’t want to miss out on any potential reward – I had my eye on the prize, as it were. So I guess one could say anticipation of reward blinded me to the wisdom of friends who may have expressed polite misgivings about the **cough, cough** actual believability and/or moral appropriateness of my **cough, cough** super-crush. 😆😆
Discussion regarding limerence on Reddit has been interesting in recent weeks. Posters have been suggesting alternative names for limerence. Here are four suggestions that stood out to me:
(1) Persisting unrequited love
(2) Impossible love
(3) Love madness
(4) Unwanted infatuation
Here are my hot takes on the alternative name suggestions:
“Persisting unrequited love” sounds a bit clumsy, but it may capture some people’s lived experience.
“Impossible love” is a nice, non-judgemental term that nonetheless acknowledges practical realities i.e. insurmountable obstacles, the fact two parties may not end up together, the possibility of non-reciprocation.
“Love madness” is my favourite – it sounds poetic and has plenty of historical and literary precedent behind it, dating back to the ancient Greeks, meaning limerence might be discussed in terms of a rich cultural tradition. Feeling depressed about being in love? Fine! Find out what the poets have to say. 😆
“Unwanted infatuation” may help distinguish people who want help with a given romantic attraction from people who don’t want help with a given romantic attraction. However, ‘unwanted infatuation” is also contentious when it comes to describing limerence overall because limerence almost always starts out as a much-wanted phenomenon that then turns into an experience that is less wanted (due to the stress involved, etc). The “wantedness” of the experience may be subject to change, based on personal circumstances and what stage one is in.
I like the term “intoxication” for limerence. I feel “intoxication” shifts the focus away from LO and LO’s behaviour, and instead emphasises the seemingly magical transformation taking place in the brain/body of the individual limerent.
Plenty of people on Reddit still struggle with the definition of limerence, and can’t agree what it is. Some people support “gatekeeping”, i.e. enforcing the narrowest possible definition of the term, while other people oppose “gatekeeping”.
One of the best casual-yet-still-well-informed definitions of limerence ran something along these lines:
Limerence is an almost obsessive state of romantic love, first defined by Dorothy Tennov in the 1970s. It starts off with feelings of elation and emotional arousal, and may lead eventually to feelings of obsessive craving.
I feel this last definition is consistent with the term/notion “person addiction”.
Hi all who followed my ramblings over the week,
the week is over and while it was tough on me, I couldn’t sleep much, stress-ate sugar and am very tired, I think it was the final breakthrough. In my case ,instead of NC, this week of contact was crucial in killing off the residues of limerence.
It also showed me that the close warm friendship I pictured and wanted to keep is not possible, at least not in the way I imagined it. We were friends for ten years but back then we worked together, which is the area where we really harmonize, and this together with easygoing conversations and mutual affection was enough. I just assumed that he would be there for me, should the need arise to talk about very personal stuff, but it never occurred.
Then the work bonding had gone since he left, which led to anxiety and limerence on both sides, contact ramped up, but from his side in this very curious manner of very frequent texts without any depth.
Friendships go on for years without getting tested. This one got tested, and didn’t withstand, at least not in the sense of close friendship.
He‘s such a limited person, he doesn’t have any understanding of what’s going on emotionally inside himself or others,he doesn’t know to express himself about personal matters at all, and he doesn’t want to change that. He cant, probably, but he also doesn’t want to.
Now I understand some things I observed in his marriage too- they don’t communicate about emotional/personal stuff either. They just function together, take care of each other, guess they love each other nonetheless in their way, but never communicate. A strange, stilted life.
I „saw“ him now really and what he feels comfortable with, that he wants me to give him validation and warmth and everything running on as it ran for years, without ever talking or changing anything (that’s why he still hangs on to this workplace, he cannot stand change ). When I try to talk about emotion or us (and I mean the least challenging stuff)he gets really uncomfortable and cannot reply.
I always thought there was normal empathy, care etc behind his neurodivergence, an ability to help or support also with words, but there doesn’t seem to be. He still loves me very much in his cramped way, I guess. But I cannot be close friends with someone who doesn’t want to communicate and only wants to see surfaces.
I think I made a huge step in finally accepting that. It’s proved by me really not pursuing the conversation this time , not trying to get through to him, not telling him a last time why I’m disappointed or why I might pull back or anything, I simply stopped and while I wasn’t warm after this altercation, I managed a few words with him , normal texts and a normal goodbye yesterday. By normal , I mean, reasonably friendly and polite , like to any acquaintance who might have come as a guest.
I have no idea if he realizes what’s going on. He noticed me being cold of course, but I think as long as I’m not shunning him completely or yelling at him, his mind will tell him that he shouldn’t think about it and everything will be ok, because he isn’t even able to think about emotional/social stuff like that. That’s ok for me now, I‘m not interested any more what he notices or thinks.
I think the only thing to manage now are the old ruts of thinking about him, I had the right epiphany and now have to take care not to slide into old habits again while I don’t have the reality check.
But that’s a matter of time. I feel that any expectation of warmth or mutual understanding in the way I want to be understood is finally gone and won’t come back.
I‘m also not at all concerned about the trip next year now. There won’t be any danger of limerence. Until then I will have managed to erase the old habit of taking him for an important person in my mind. It might even be pleasant to have him around .
He‘s actually someone to be a bit pitied. He gets so helpless and peeved . I would say he is in the undeveloped stages of a child what concerns the expressing of emotions, but then my kids can express themselves very well.
People of LwL, I‘m actually quite proud of me, of how I handled it this week. I had a last say but didn’t fly off the handle, I finally saw him for who he is, and I think now is a huge opportunity to let go completely.
Hi Mila,
Your story has always been kind of unique to me but it’s good to see you are coming around. It’s nice to not let LOs get the best of us. Although I totally get the struggle. So crazy how when we’re on the midst of the madness, we don’t see it. But what has been said in looking back on our LE is very true. What an incredible waste of time we put on someone..
Good job and keep the good work..
Hi MJ,
Thank you! I actually feel very, very good today. Relieved and happy, enjoying some Christmas baking and decorating. I‘m kind of rid of a spectre in my head.
Mila,
Great to hear the experience has clarified some things and that you feel some peace of mind today. Maybe this unsticks some things that have been stuck a long time?
Have you got a spare batch of those bakes for those seeking Sunday solace at the Amoors Inn?
Hi LaR,
I think it unstuck things, ended this LE for good and left me for the first time for years limerence-free!
And yeah, of course I’ve got a spare batch of those healthy but veeery tasty limerence-free Christmas cookies!
Hello Mila. Good job on getting through the work week with LO. Its also great to see you getting some sort of closure on LE. You can be proud of yourself. I am sure you will feel even better in the days to come.
Just wondering, do you plan to text LO now? Please feel free not to answer.
Regarding thoughts of LO popping in now and then, this will happen. LO thoughts still keep coming into my head pretty much daily, especially when I am alone, but I just let them come and go. They do not cause distress like they used to.
I have also tried to have ZERO expectations from LO. I am finding joy in my work, my exercise, spending time with family. This has really helped me. Not expecting validation from LO would be a huge step for me. I feel I am well on that path now.
In addition, I will make a conscious effort to stop giving validation to LO. On previous occasions, I was not successful in this, partly because I was expecting some validation from her as well, like a to and fro thing.
I realised the hard way that I just cannot be emotionally dependent on LO. Took a long time for this realisation, but better late than never.
To sum up, like you, I am also feeling pretty good in terms of moving on from LE.
Cheers.
Hi ABCD,
Thanks!
No, I’m definitely not going to text. If he texts, I‘ll answer friendly but I won’t initiate texts for sure. My feeling is, he won’t text too for quite a while, but I don’t care, actually. I‘m really out of it. Earlier, when I decided not to text or have contact, I put his chat on mute and into the archive, out of hurt, or to avoid temptation.
Now I don’t feel this need, it stays in the normal chat thread and I don’t think of it.
I don’t expect any validation and actually nothing.
This talk with our mutual friend yesterday was really helpful because it showed me that it’s not only disappointed limerence and me being unfair, but that LO really lacks in emotional expression and intelligence. The thing is that he’s always been like that and only when I got limerent and got dependent on him,and we suddenly got much closer in contact, it started to hurt. So it might be unfair to accuse him suddenly of something that wasn’t a problem for years.
Still, when I look at our recent text exchange , he really is not ok there, and he didn’t try to talk about it afterwards, he won’t ever try to set that right, because he lacks the words and courage and anyway refuses to think about that he could be at fault or actually think about anything deeper at all.
I won’t text not because I‘m angry but because 1. I think he will immediately take it as some sort of apology or sign that I think it’s me who was in the wrong, which is ridiculous, 2. I think it’s best for all not to have contact at all now.
Might send Christmas greetings, I guess, but that’s the extent of my goodwill at the moment.
ABCD,
you sound much better, I‘m very glad about your resolve and that you found strength in other areas in your life! Keep up the spirit!
Mila, your last week sounded very stressful and exhausting.
You indeed managed it well, and the reality of your friends emotional capabilities is now fuller clear to you. It’s a little sad maybe, but probably for the best. Hope you can feel freer now and gain some headspace back which is I think what many of us are seeking.
I wish you a fantastic week ahead.
Hi Imho,
indeed, I literally feel the freed headspace, and it’s crucial now not to fill it with ongoing ruminations about him or even subconsciously seeking for new limerent dopamine hits (as you know, I glided from one LE to the next for years). It might be why I’m on here a lot at the moment (also because the experience still needs to settle and apart from the conversation with my friend yesterday you are the only people I told about this altercation (cannot really term it „fight“, you cannot fight with someone who doesn’t talk).
I definitely feel freed, but also feel that it is necessary to control myself and make sure I don’t settle down into dismissal and aggression for LO, but that I take my part of responsibility and am forgiving of his character to a certain degree. Otherwise I‘m not being fair.
Is your event coming up soon? Wish you peace of mind and clarity of thoughts!
Hi Mila, sorry for tardy reply. I’m quite busy and also struggling to keep up with lwl goings on.
It seems we have a pub now too on some misty desolate moorland. In the past I suggested a wine bar across the street from the coffeehouse. It got favorable backing at the time but never fully opened its doors to the public!
It’s maybe good for you to hang out here, as may help you work through the remnants of last week, as im sure it will take time to settle, with a potential void after all that contact and just thinking about LO interactions alot in whatever capacity.
As for me, I’m figuring it out as usual. I’m not initiating any contact and neither has LO since the messaging on the event.
Another colleague messaged me to say she is looking forward to seeing me again after so long. So I need to lean into her and the others. I’m trying not to build it up but it’s hard. Im thinking to be more distant led by my executive brain, which seems to be waking up at last, to protect against the inevitable crash after.
And I need to re-read the advice given by the lovely LwL lot a couple of weeks ago.
Hi Imho,
always nice to hear from you. I still favorite a coffee house with the option of a red wine later!
Yes, I’ve got suddenly some kind of hole in my mind, like when a tooth fell out in childhood. I have to touch it with my tongue all 10 minutes to feel it’s really gone.
The good thing is, I’ve got this one recent short text exchange or actually this one text from LO on my phone.
When I get pulled back into former rosy view of LO, I just have to read it to understand once more how he is. He kind of helped me there himself by producing such clear evidence.
I had a short wobble where I thought I’m being too harsh since he‘s always been that way and suddenly it’s not ok anymore for me, it must be confusing for him, and maybe I should text and ask about his back pain. But after I read that text again, I saw again that that is not necessary at all, that I will steer clear of texting and all I’m going to do is let it all settle and digest, and simmer the rest of resentment down until he lost all this importance and I can see him f2f with an easy mind again because I don’t care that much any more.
I think you are the one who knows best what will be the best course of action for you so that you can feel content with yourself after this meeting.
Imagine yourself after that day at home, what will make you feel that you were doing well and no regrets? (not a real question from me, just for you ). Because you are the most important one to care for at this event, not him.
We are rooting for you!
And if it doesn’t go according to plan or something happens and he can’t come or whatever, the sky won’t fall down, there will be other opportunities, life will go on!
*favor
Thanks Mila, I like the tooth analogy and describes that feeling well. Also I think it’s just the step change of a habit (texting) that you will need to get used, regardless of the limerence. Because we get to know you a little ( maybe) then maybe you just need to watch out in a week’s time or so, that you may be tempted to check-in and ask about health etc. watch those busy thumbs 😊
Thanks for rooting for me. I’m trying not to ruminate on it, as the reality never plays out as you imagine. However, I’m spending too long thinking on what to wear etc Annoying myself!
No , Imho,
It is important to plan what to wear because you want to feel good! Wear something comfortable that you can move and sit in freely. Maybe not baggy leggings, but you know what I mean. It’s more important to give off a vibe of being comfortable in your skin than to wear a glamorous outfit, at least that’s my experience.
I think it was Bewitched who said wear something red, and I actually like wearing something (darker) red when I want to feel visible and put myself in a good mood. Depends on your coloring, of course.
Yes, will watch my thumbs. I still think that he will take it as some sort of apology or admitting I was in the wrong if I write now, and this is something I really don’t want him to think. He is welcome to text and I’ll answer politely, but no way am I going to text first- as I said, a Christmas message will be the first thing I would initiate, because I also don’t want to be in Cold War with him.
Mila,
I like your contact plan with your friend.
I think it was me that recommended you to wear red once, I think it helps with confidence when we need it. Bewitched may have recommended red too – because great minds do think alike, ha ha !
The event is such I have to make quite an effort for my clothes anyway. I’m more thinking how to lose a few kilograms and look 10 years younger in record time! Ha ha !
Yes, it was you!:)
Sometimes I feel better with simple black, by the way… it gets very girly, I wish I could see what you will choose to wear in the end!!☺️
I know exactly what you mean- ever since 40 I want to lose 2 kilos before some event (last week for example. Didn’t, of course, but I have to say, it didn’t matter. I still looked more than good enough for this guy.;).
The thing is that it’s only my mind telling me I would look better with 2 kilos less. The truth is that I might look better with 2 kilos more, who knows, it’s that darn hysteria to be as thin as possible that possesses all women. Your LO and everyone else most probably won‘t notice kilos or wrinkles, ok, they might notice but won’t judge you like you do yourself. It’s the same as with what to wear- what ultimately will be important is just your own sweet nature. I‘m sure you‘ll be lovely, Imho, don’t worry about kilos.
I’m a SO with a limerent husband, it’s been 10 months of pure hell. Every second of my life is torture.
It’s horrible but I actually was not horrified by the increasing political unrest in the world. It’s almost as if I feel less alone knowing that there is tension everywhere in the world, not just in my home.
Despair defines it well.
FS,
Have you checked out the Blog Archive link at the bottom of the page?
Search for “Spouse.”
At the moment, comments on older blogs are closed but that could change at some point.
Hi Limerent Emeritus,
Yes, I did. It’s been helpful, thank you.
As you mentioned, it would be nice if at some point we could still add comments to the older posts. Perhaps at least on the ones concerning the SO. It’s good to be able to speak about this to someone that understands it.
Welcome to LwL, Fading Sunshine. I am sorry to read of the despair you’re feeling. Most of the posters here are limerents, but there are some SOs of limerents as well who share your confusion and pain.
I have found reading posts of limerents helpful in understanding my husband’s altered state.
It sounds like you’ve found the archive with older blog posts. There’s one titled “Dealing with limerence in marriage” that you’ll probably find helpful. With the older blog posts closed for comments, perhaps Dr L can start up a coffeehouse for SOs of limerence.
Some more gems:
@Mila.
I think that feeling of “emotional dependency” may separate an LO from just a friend, even if the interaction started out as a true friendship. Also, I think “emotional dependency” is why people end up resenting a given LO. E.g. I need this person to regulate my emotions, and today he/she was neutral toward me, denying me the “fix” I so obviously needed, etc.
You continue to write beautifully. German schooling must be very good. 🙂
@Bewitched.
As I see it, you have two extremely valuable assets on your side – age and emotional maturity. If you play your cards very carefully, you might be able to avoid the pitfalls of emotional dependency that other people seem to struggle with. However, in my experience, emotional dependency does seem to be the “price” one eventually has to pay for all those “melting moments” with LO.
Every time you allow your LO to “make you melt inside”, as it were, releasing dopamine in your brain, you’re taking one step closer to invisible quicksand. In other words, If you surrender repeatedly to the pleasures of intoxication, even with a good LO, you may be gambling with your mental health. Euphoria feels wonderful in those early initial bursts of warm sunshine, but euphoria isn’t free.
@MJ.
When I reprimand you, you know I’m not really reprimanding you, right? What I’m doing is “sharing my calm” with you. Young children typically struggle to regulate their own emotions. Adults ideally can regulate their own emotions. Because adults can regulate their own emotions, they can do something for children called “emotional co-regulation” i.e. sharing calm with a distraught younger person. Sometimes, I view you as an “honorary younger person”. Patronising, I know. 😆
@Trifles.
Happy to see you have “found your groove” in the LwL coffeehouse, and haven’t allowed a selectively-surly Australian to intimidate you. The European contingent is nothing if not resilient, I see. If people respond a little too harshly to you, perhaps it’s because they can’t always see the emotional vulnerability and “desire to be found attractive simply as a woman” underneath your high intelligence. 😉
Hi Sammy,
no, schooling here is very bad. All of my English stems from a year abroad and reading a lot in English. Also, I’m much better at writing than speaking.
If I depended on schooling, I wouldn’t be able to write anything more sophisticated than „Liz has got a guinea pig. Its name is Munchies“ or something on that level
Dear Sammy,
Your gems are appreciated 😀
“Bewitched
As I see it, you have two extremely valuable assets on your side – age and emotional maturity. If you play your cards very carefully, you might be able to avoid the pitfalls of emotional dependency that other people seem to struggle with. However, in my experience, emotional dependency does seem to be the “price” one eventually has to pay for all those “melting moments” with LO”
I certainly have age on my side 😀
I feel like a youngster on the inside but am certainly more -ahem- vintage on the outside now. Ah well.
What you say is absolutely true. I was speaking with Mila about how LO brings out my softer side. ‘Soft’ is linguistically adjacent to the word ‘melting’ in your comment. The euphoria is all but gone for me and has been for quite some time. I even went through a bit of low feeling once I realised that the euphoria was gone, this happened maybe as long as six months ago now. The low feeling did not last too long and it was not devastating, I believe that’s because it happened gradually and so my mental state calibrated itself slowly to the new reality. After that phase, I had a sense of immense freedom from LO taking up space in my head and a gratitude that I no longer really cared about what he did / did not do.
I do believe that the fundamental thing is to want to recover, then it is possible, like in any addiction. It sounds trite but I had to feel that I was ‘over it’ in my bones. As you say, stop the pleasant daydreams / dopamine hits from contact. Then, to help along the way, I think that once a certain recovery phase has been reached in limerence, it is probably possible to assert your logical and strategic mind into recovery – like, I was very stubborn once I decided that I wanted limerence to stop. None of that is possible in the depths of limerence though.
You are right, I need to be fond but not dependent on him for validation, something that I need to constantly check myself on. Thanks Sammy.
“Sometimes, I view you as an “honorary younger person”. Patronising, I know. 😆”
Not really Sammy, but you’re good. Obviously if I have shared with Lwl Friends here, what an absolute bawling mess I’ve found myself in over LO, that should easily prove I am far from being in control of my emotions. Just last week I was going through her playlist again and tearing-up over some recent finds I added on it. I got lost in that moment and never wanted out. The idea of her is still very intriguing. At the same time, it still makes me anxious because it’s such a wrong feeling that feels so right.
Or perhaps it’s just because I look in the mirror and refuse to see myself as a middle-aged man of 53, going through a pathetic mid-life, thinking all the cute younger Women, 35 and under still look at and want me. I tell myself that but who am I fooling?? I look in the mirror and can’t believe I’m actually 53 sometimes. Like who is that old Man looking back at me right now??
My Lady Friend is good to me. I want to believe the age-gap appeals to her or is it just a ruse to make me feel good? She is very charming and so it makes me wonder sometimes. On a platonic level, we are beyond great as friends. Stepping up things a notch, I’m not entirely sold on just yet. Don’t want to ruin a good thing.
Keeping limerence at bay is paramount being around her..
You have some good insight here with others Sammy, so call it as you see it. I’ll never take offense. Even if I did though, I believe you and I would be intelligent enough in our dialogue to rationalize with each other about it. 😁
Well…
My LO just sent me an email, a very touching one, and I am really touched. I think he agonized a lot and it cost him much to write this. It is emotional and full of anxiety to lose our friendship.
I‘m very glad- I feel by no means limerent again, that has really passed. But I‘m very glad that he cares so much and that I can open up again to this friendship. I have to think a bit about answering because I don’t want to skip the whole load of my own stuff over his head now, since it might be too much for his neurodivergent brain.
This might in a friendship-happy end after all now.
*end in a happy end
Wow – that is *big* news!
Your mind will probably now go in a million directions about what you want to say in response, but your advice to yourself is wise – to take your time and really think the reply through, for what is helpful and productive to say versus not. Over at the inn, we’ve fixed you up a big pot of strong coffee for this task. Good luck!
I am really glad for you that he sent this email.
Thanks LaR.
Yes, I will take my time, but not too long,I think he waits, agonizing. I thought about sending a text that I’ll reply later, but won’t. It’s obvious that I need a bit of time to reply if I want to reply thoughtfully.
I‘m glad too. It loosens a knot inside me, and at the same time I am also glad that I still feel that the LE is over, but not the friendship. If I can do it, you can do it, LaR!
I can do it Mila. I am doing it!!! Easy does it, but getting much more equilibrium again after the well publicised blip a while back.
“I think he waits, agonizing”
*Let him!* How long did he make you wait, agonising, to get this emotion and confirmation that he cares from him? How many *years* (not hours)? Make him wait a bit! I know even just knowing you on LwL your tendency to want to reply quickly (takes one to know one). But your closest friends here will have great suggestions to bounce around with you about the reply, once they have time to comment.
LAR,
Right, I’ll take a bit of time to reply;)but I’m not one for playing the waiting game too much. I like things to be done and over with..
Mila, I’m also happy for you about this email! See, never give up on people – there are some emotions in there after all. 😉 And I’m just as glad to hear that it didn’t raise the limerent feelings in you.
I’m not great at this either – you’re probably much better! – but I would reply like I would to any other good friend whom I would want to continue a friendship with.
Hi Trifles, (and LaR),
that’s what I’ll try to do, thanks!
I already wrote a draft but will check it tonight with fresh eyes.
Also, have to think a bit more of how I would like future contact to look like and maybe work that into the mail.
While I‘m happy and he is restored in my head to a better person than the careless egoistic person I finally took him for, my picture of him has still changed, I can still see what he‘ll never be capable of.
So I think while this friendship is very important to me, it shouldn’t be my top priority any more , the one I put most thoughts and care into. It should take its place among other friends and even a little below some who I click better with. I would never let him feel that since I think I’m honestly his top closest friend. But for my sanity, I cannot rely emotionally so much on someone who is so limited in that area and has to torture himself so much to meet my (not that high) needs in that area.
Trifles, I recently ate a dessert called Christmas trifle, it was very delicious!
Hi Mila,
I am.late to this party but I just wantef to share in your happiness. When I read your post this morning, I was worried for you before realising that you were clear that this email did not reawaken any feelings of a euphoric limerent “win”.
“So I think while this friendship is very important to me, it shouldn’t be my top priority any more” and
“But for my sanity, I cannot rely emotionally so much on someone who is so limited in that area and has to torture himself so much to meet my (not that high) needs in that area”
This is the core of it. He cant meet your needs, its actually about something else. The validation he gives is not enough (even as a close friend) and that is okay. Not a tragedy. As for his feelings, you are far too wise and adept to let him down. He may be contented by very little?
Bewitched,
Of course he would have been most happy with a little, simply a reassurance that we will always be friends, something like that.
But I just sent a long and, if you pardon my arrogance, very well-written email (I’m good at expressing myself in writing, of course only in my own language.)
I did it for me because I want to explain my behavior and my view of the situation, there should be no misunderstandings what this is about.
If he doesn’t understand it or is offended by something, well, so be it.
I still have tenderness for him, but I stopped depending on any answer from him.
He wrote himself that he is looking forward if he could see me in January (he‘ll be in town), I’ll see him probably anyway then. He won’t by any means manage to write back satisfyingly, I think his first email cost him already a lot of time, sweat and trials. (My SO cannot write either, but he can talk, if necessary.)
It was important for me to articulate myself clearly one last time, although gentle. I told him we can manage, and we‘ll try.
But the most important thing for me is really that this horrible limerent dependency seems to be gone. I‘m curious how he will react and my aggression is gone after his mail, but if he wouldn’t write ever again, it would also be kind of ok.
Hi Mila,
“I‘m curious how he will react and my aggression is gone after his mail, but if he wouldn’t write ever again, it would also be kind of ok.”
Yes. We all have our breaking points, even in limerence, things we just can’t support anymore. Generally it might be to do with the LO’s approach (if they are just using us, not always the case of course) or it might be do do with ourselves and not being able to bear the pain any longer. But its such a roller coaster that the status quo can not remain indefinitely. That alone ought to be logic enough to make us look ahead to the end point – personally I am a big fan of playing out all the ‘what if’ scenarios. The trick, when there is friendship or co-worker involved, is to manage that transition to the endpoint of limerence with dignity and self-respect intact. I am not sure we all manage that last part to our own exacting standards (I think most limerents are very hard on themselves), but some come close enough I hope. I am so glad for you because I think this neutral feeling that you’re enjoying will enhance your relationship with LO, whatever that looks like.
Just need to avoid any further glimmers now!!!! Eyes down and buy some very strong designer sunglasses, wear them indoors like Elizabeth Taylor, etc. 😀
Hi Bewitched,
will buy sunglasses immediately! Although I’m not sure about Elizabeth Taylor as role model, if I recall it rightly, she married eight times (two times Richard Burton).
Yes, we‘ll see, when the next glimmer hops along.
I think I’ll only be able to stay friends with LO if I manage to maintain this equanimity and if I manage to assign him another role in my life, nothing too major but still a steady friend.
Also, don’t know if he will play along. My mail had warm words but also clear criticism, we‘ll see what he makes of it.
Mila, that sounds really smart to also voice how you would want your future contact to be like. That is, if you’re able to specify what you want, and even stick to it for awhile at least. That takes some of the uncertainty out of it, also for him. Especially if he has trouble reading the subtle clues in social interactions.
So simple, yet sometimes so hard for us when we wrestle with uncertainty in relationships – why don’t we just ask for what we want? And conversely, when someone’s behavior puzzles us, why don’t we just ask why they acted in the way they did?
Confession time – I don’t think I’ve ever had a trifle! LaR asked earlier why I chose the name, so LaR, this is for you. It just popped into my head when I was compelled to write here. I think phonetically (and even with its double meaning) it reminded me of a good user name I had seen ages ago on a travel forum!
Meaning-wise, l thought along the lines of “My worries are mere trifles”.
But I think the archaic meaning also fits me quite well 😜 – “talk or act frivolously”, “We will not trifle—life is too short.”
If I’m feeling pompous, then: “She is not a person to be trifled with.” (“treat without seriousness or respect”)
I just found out trifles are “often soaked with wine or spirits”. Seems fitting?! But I promise I won’t trifle with those Flaming Zombies any more!
Triflings,
For you not to have had a trifle is like me not having had a rant! … you’ve got to go for it now …
Usually layers of cream, custard, fruit, and sponge soaked in a spirit (sherry is typical) or some kind of fruit juice 😋
One to wet your whistle, for example:
https://amandascookin.com/traditional-english-trifle/
And I am over this business with the zombies (though if I see that welder anywhere around here again, we will need to have more than trifling words). In fact, spending a Monday to Wednesday rebuilding the wall of a pub has been on my bucket list for some time, so there we are, it all worked out.
All good – we can reopen in time for the weekend! Hopefully the sommelier has found a nice soft, mellow European red to mark the occasion (see, Imho, we are listening to customer feedback). I’ll also see how the chef feels about prepping a trifle for everyone.
Hi Trifles,
just found your message.
In the end I refrained from determining future interaction, because I already wrote so much and also because I’m not sure what will be best either.
I‘ll just wait and see, there’s no stress, at least that’s how I feel it at the moment.
„ And conversely, when someone’s behavior puzzles us, why don’t we just ask why they acted in the way they did?“
That’s what I would do, and what doesn’t come natural at all to him, and questions like that distress him greatly. Actually , I think his neurodivergence is bigger than I thought. I really wonder if his SO came to the conclusion he‘s neurodivergent and if not, how the hell does she cope?
Well, not my problem.
Didn’t make Rachel in „Friends“ a trifle for Thanksgiving, with minced meat in it because the cookbook pages were stuck together? Just remembered it.
Mila, good point, you have to know your audience for those questions. Also let’s not badger our LOs too much with things like “…but WHY did it take you 15 mins to respond to my message” and some such! 😅
I think his SO must know he is “wired differently”, otherwise would she have stayed with him for as long as she has..?
Lol, you have a great memory! I found the clip of Rachel making the meat trifle (beef sauteed with onions).
“That was weird to me too, but English people just put strange things in their food!” 😜
LaR, let’s add that to the menu at the Inn, please? So half your recipe and half Shepherd’s pie recipe. Only for December…
Hi Trifles,
„I think his SO must know he is “wired differently”, otherwise would she have stayed with him for as long as she has..?“
She must know that, but I wonder if one of them ever read up on neurodivergence or wondered more about it than just stating that he‘s a bit different. I mean, it causes him not a small amount of distress and misunderstanding, when I got his email right. I don’t dare to point him in the direction auf neurodiversity because it‘s kind of patronizing („see, you have a CONDITION“😂🙈), it’s not my place to do that.
It’s actually not that long ago I saw this trifle episode, that’s why I remember it. Hilarious. It definitely belongs on the menu of the inn, just to honor your name!
For anyone who‘s got nothing to do in this pre-Christmas-time😆:
https://youtu.be/ky3KiiUK_D0